# Installation Issue with Kitchen Cabinets



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

Hi,
First post. I am a bit stuck on how to proceed. I've got about 200 linear feet of wall cabinets to hang on two walls.The house is over 100 years old.The walls are brick and plaster, no studs, no lathe. My current design doesn't allow for much wiggle room. Could I get away with hanging the cabinets off of 1x4 #pine instead of studding out the walls? Say if I just added more screws to the hanging rails in order to support the cabinet weight and what goes in them? I would be applying construction glue and fasten the 1x4's to the plaster/brick with a pneumatic nailer. Okay. If that seems like a pretty risky thing to do because the screw is only engaged with at most 3/4" of wood, as an alternative could I mount 2x4's face on? By my reckoning, I would be able to get a screw into the face of a 2x4 at least 1.25". If I have to change out and end-of-wall cabinet from an 18" to a 12" in order to accommodate a more robust mounting system - so be it.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Two hundred feet of cabinet...must be a huge house. Why not just use Tapcons. I hang cabinets on block and brick with them with no problems.












 







.


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

The Cabinetman wrote..


> Two hundred feet of cabinet...must be a huge house. Why not just use Tapcons. I hang cabinets on block and brick with them with no problems.


In the uppers, I've got [2] 30's, [1] 36 over the fridge, [1] 24x24 corner,[1] 21", [1] 30" over the gas range, & [1] 18" that will squeeze into the end of the sink-side wall.

Tap cons might work. The problem that I have had with them so far in this house mounting electrical boxes is that the inside course of brick is softer than the exterior course. Apparently it was a common practice to use softer brick (maybe sun dried) on the inside layer and kiln dried bricks on exterior side. Sometimes they simply won't grab. Still...I could try using longer Tapcons. Maybe 2.5"?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Just a few suggestions. I use the correct drill bit (with this, size is important) in a hammerdrill, and drill through the hangrail into the block at one time. I use a cordless drill to install the Tapcons, on slow speed. It has more torque than an electric on slow speeds. I find a smooth drive is better than an impact driver, as all the screw has to do is thread the media. Excessive vibration can wallow out the hole with the screw. When close to seating, just bump the trigger to tighten. Driving screws fast can over spin them.












 







.


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Just a few suggestions. I use the correct drill bit (with this, size is important) in a hammerdrill, and drill through the hangrail into the block at one time. I use a cordless drill to install the Tapcons, on slow speed. It has more torque than an electric on slow speeds. I find a smooth drive is better than an impact driver, as all the screw has to do is thread the media. Excessive vibration can wallow out the hole with the screw. When close to seating, just bump the trigger to tighten. Driving screws fast can over spin them.


Yep. All good. I have found the same to be true: in impact drive mode, the bit wallows out the hole in soft or degraded brick. I have also 'found' that I can achieve success if I use an _undersized_ (carbide) bit in this material. Tapcons have definitely bailed me out on many occasions. Weird that I only gave them a passing thought before initiating this thread. If no one strenuously objects, I'm going to stick my plan and settle on 1X4's with the Tapcons.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rmcarner said:


> If no one strenuously objects, I'm going to stick my plan and settle on 1X4's with the Tapcons.


Does that mean...1x4's are your hangrail? I was suggesting to screw the cabinets on to the brick...no furring strips.












 







.


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Does that mean...1x4's are your hangrail? I was suggesting to screw the cabinets on to the brick...no furring strips.


I wish I could post just one image of this 'kitchen' space, you'd see what I'm up against. I'm older than dirt and the cabinets that were in here are at least 20 years older. This is a complete gut. Three walls are exterior/brick/crumbling plaster. You stare hard at the plaster and it comes down. That's why I decided to 'furr out' the walls. 1. To build new walls from scratch off the furring strips (1/2" drywall) and 2. to add an R-5.5 foil backed insulation between the furring strips where nothing existed previously. With that plan in mind, so far, I've installed the new return lines and drain for where the sink will be. I have mortised out spaces in the plaster and have mounted all my outlets(according to the code) both above the counter tops and the ones dedicated to various appliances such as the refrigerator, dishwasher (hardwired), and microwave. I did use Tapcons to mount to electrical boxes. So, all of the counter top electrical boxes (if my plan works out) will be flush with the drywall once it is installed.

It's after doing all of this that I began to wonder how the heck I was going to mount the cabinets on the furring strips (actually full-blown 1x4's - but you get my drift). Then, I started sweating about all the work I had done mounting duplexes and the like...


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rmcarner said:


> I wish I could post just one image of this 'kitchen' space, you'd see what I'm up against. I'm older than dirt and the cabinets that were in here are at least 20 years older. This is a complete gut. Three walls are exterior/brick/crumbling plaster. You stare hard at the plaster and it comes down. That's why I decided to 'furr out' the walls. 1. To build new walls from scratch off the furring strips (1/2" drywall) and 2. to add an R-5.5 foil backed insulation between the furring strips where nothing existed previously. With that plan in mind, so far, I've installed the new return lines and drain for where the sink will be. I have mortised out spaces in the plaster and have mounted all my outlets(according to the code) both above the counter tops and the ones dedicated to various appliances such as the refrigerator, dishwasher (hardwired), and microwave. I did use Tapcons to mount to electrical boxes. So, all of the counter top electrical boxes (if my plan works out) will be flush with the drywall once it is installed.
> 
> It's after doing all of this that I began to wonder how the heck I was going to mount the cabinets on the furring strips (actually full-blown 1x4's - but you get my drift). Then, I started sweating about all the work I had done mounting duplexes and the like...


If you are going to all that trouble why not just frame out the walls with 2x4's. You could then install insulation, and have 16" O/C, real wood to install to, on the edges. No worries about flakey walls.

Other thoughts. The brick fascia is likely not flat, and you'll have countless high spots.












 








.​


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> If you are going to all that trouble why not just frame out the walls with 2x4's. You could then install insulation, and have 16" O/C, real wood to install to, on the edges. No worries about flakey walls.
> 
> Other thoughts. The brick fascia is likely not flat, and you'll have countless high spots.


You are right of course. I'd get more insulation and have a real wall. My problem is that I would not be able to mount the upper 24/30 corner cabinet because it would intrude into the space where the current window is. The actual usable space for installing cabinets is not as large as you might think. I've got 122.5" x 142.5" to work with on two walls. This space will include a 36"wide fridge, dishwasher, 36" base for sink, & 30" stove. Maybe it's magical thinking, but I was hoping that once I were to install the drywall, my walls would be halfway plump. I am planning on using a Fat Max laser level and a story stick to lay out the lines for the uppers & lowers. Plus tons of shims? Besides my problem with with the way the space is configured is the fact that I dread the thought of pulling out all of the electrical boxes and starting over. You can speak plain if you think for some reason this is a bad plan.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rmcarner said:


> You are right of course. I'd get more insulation and have a real wall. My problem is that I would not be able to mount the upper 24/30 corner cabinet because it would intrude into the space where the current window is. The actual usable space for installing cabinets is not as large as you might think. I've got 122.5" x 142.5" to work with on two walls. This space will include a 36"wide fridge, dishwasher, 36" base for sink, & 30" stove. Maybe it's magical thinking, but I was hoping that once I were to install the drywall, my walls would be halfway plump. I am planning on using a Fat Max laser level and a story stick to lay out the lines for the uppers & lowers. Plus tons of shims? Besides my problem with with the way the space is configured is the fact that I dread the thought of pulling out all of the electrical boxes and starting over. You can speak plain if you think for some reason this is a bad plan.


I read your first post and you said 200 linear feet...now we're down to inches.:yes: Anyway, is your spacing problem because the cabinets are already made?












 







.


----------



## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Are you aware of Z-clips? They are an aluminum French cleat, often used on steel stud jobs. An end skin or molding may be necessary to hide the gap on end cabinets if you didn't allow for scribe on the end cabinet side. They are easy to attach to masonry with tapcons, I prefer to hit the mortar joints if the mortar is solid. You may need to shim here and there so they are straight, if the wall isn't, otherwise the matching intersection won't fit together.
http://www.hooksandlattice.com/cleat-hangers.html?gclid=CIeP-PLh-6YCFcfe4Aod22SxHw


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I read your first post and you said 200 linear feet...now we're down to inches.:yes:


No wonder I can't mount the cabinets! :laughing:



> Anyway, is your spacing problem because the cabinets are already made?.


No. I haven't place the order yet. But as I was saying (about one thing), the 30" Wall corner makes it barely without trespassing into the existing window. As it stands, I may have to custom cut narrower than normal window casing - which is no big deal.. I really want to have the 30" Wall Corner as part of the overall design. I don't want a blind corner wall cabinet even if I could find one that would not trespass into the window space were I to frame out with 2x4's. Hope I am making sense of all of this. And, I appreciate the help.


----------



## rmcarner (Feb 9, 2011)

Hammer1 said:


> Are you aware of Z-clips? They are an aluminum French cleat, often used on steel stud jobs. An end skin or molding may be necessary to hide the gap on end cabinets if you didn't allow for scribe on the end cabinet side. They are easy to attach to masonry with tapcons, I prefer to hit the mortar joints if the mortar is solid. You may need to shim here and there so they are straight, if the wall isn't, otherwise the matching intersection won't fit together.
> http://www.hooksandlattice.com/cleat-hangers.html?gclid=CIeP-PLh-6YCFcfe4Aod22SxHw


I'll look into them here in a bit and see if they are applicable. But one of the things I wanted to do - if I continue with my plan of putting up furring strips was to insert between the furring strips some Tuff-R which at the least would give me @5.5R where now, I got nothing between me and the outside but two courses of brick.


----------



## loosebolt (Feb 2, 2011)

I've tried several different anchors in old soft brick and have had the best luck using plastic sleeve anchors and screwing on hat channel instead of 1x4 than cover with drywall, its not the fastest to install but makes a nice solid wall.


----------



## Oldtimecarpenter (Feb 7, 2011)

How about framing the wall with 2x3's then sheathing it with 3/4" plywood. Sounds like the soft bricks may fail using any mechanical fastener and/ or adhesive. When those cabinets are loaded with dishes, etc., there's a ton of bearing weight on a wall that probably will fail. I wouldn't take the chance period! Do it right or it'll cost you sooner or latter.


----------



## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Maybe it`s just me...but I don`t think I can give any advise without seeing the cabinet lay-out and knowing where the door and or the windows are. Tap cons sounds good...or come kind mounting rails.


----------



## woodjoiner (Aug 20, 2010)

Just a suggestion but could you place the 2x4s flat and anchor with tapcons, adhesive and have room for the window.


----------



## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's how I often lock in a bank of uppers when some of them aren't hitting over studs.

I hang them all with just gun nails at first, then go back and put in this locking 2x4 at the tops.

Sheer seems to be no problem if you catch all the studs you can with a few screws here and there, and this fix (picture) eliminates any lateral pull.


----------

