# lights dim when tools run



## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

when ever i run my miter saw or circular saw in the lights dim and stay dim. i only have 3 outlets and this happens in two out of three which makes it hard to do much only having one plug. I can run small stuff it the two plugs such as a ros without the lights dimming so i need to figure out why this is happening.


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

That is not good. It could be a real fire hazard.

The lights dim when pulling more current, like a saw. The reason is because there is a loose or corroded connection somewhere in the circuit. 

The resistance is causing the voltage to drop, it's also causing heat. 

I highly recommend getting an electrician to care of it before there's a big problem.


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## Locodcdude (Oct 24, 2010)

Not quite a fire hazard ^^ But can result in one later down the road.
Have you ever been in the kitchen and used the blender and the lights do that? Same principal.
You basically need to put 2 breakers in your box. 1 on the lights, 1 on the tools. a one man shop is very unlikely to run more than 2 things at once (Dust collector and Table saw). So if you do have a dust collector, consider running a 3rd circuit to the collector. Run some heavier wire off these circuits such as 12/2 wire for your outlets. The lights can stay on the 14/2, which is often run for the outlets in a house. For a workshop you want 12/2 for the outlets, and keep power consuming tools on their own breakers, such as your Dust collector, and then lights on another. In my shop I have 3 breakers going out there. 1 for my tools, 1 for my lights, and one for my dust collector. This is more than satisfying for my needs, considering I'm just a guy out there by myself.


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## Ycreek (Dec 8, 2010)

Locodcdude said:


> Not quite a fire hazard ^^ But can result in one later down the road.
> Have you ever been in the kitchen and used the blender and the lights do that? Same principal.
> You basically need to put 2 breakers in your box. 1 on the lights, 1 on the tools. a one man shop is very unlikely to run more than 2 things at once (Dust collector and Table saw). So if you do have a dust collector, consider running a 3rd circuit to the collector. Run some heavier wire off these circuits such as 12/2 wire for your outlets. The lights can stay on the 14/2, which is often run for the outlets in a house. For a workshop you want 12/2 for the outlets, and keep power consuming tools on their own breakers, such as your Dust collector, and then lights on another. In my shop I have 3 breakers going out there. 1 for my tools, 1 for my lights, and one for my dust collector. This is more than satisfying for my needs, considering I'm just a guy out there by myself.


Do I remember someone posting that you can run 10/2 w/grnd to everything(except lights) so that you can easily convert to 220 by changing the breaker and the receptacle?


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## Locodcdude (Oct 24, 2010)

You are very right ^^


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## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

does anyone know how much an electrishion would charge for this


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## davelindgren (Aug 25, 2010)

First try finding one among your friends and relatives. Second, pick up a book. I know, some guys on here just flinched reading this. But, I did just that. Bought good books on subjects and read and reread them till I was comfortable. I built my own home and did everything except hook up the power to the meter and put in the septic tank. Course, the first bedroom I wired took me all day cause I was so paranoid I was going to screw it up. If you are not comfortable doing that then just start asking around.


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## Locodcdude (Oct 24, 2010)

Yeah man, I'm guessing you're a "kid". I'm also a "kid", Only 18 years old, I took a class in my high school and learned how to hook up your basic breaker boxes, receptacles, 3 ways, types of wire there are, and different amounts of load that you would need for a particular tool. Home Depot sells books that you can really learn from on how to hook up stuff like the receptacles that you need, and possibly more light. Then later hire and electrician if you feel it's necessary to do the final hook up in the breaker box. But reading a book can really take you a long way, I would consider checking out some online articles if possible.


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## dwendt1978 (Mar 13, 2010)

Have you tried killing the breakers that your tools are on and see if they are connected to the lights as well?? This sounds like what you have going on.

Dave is right, get a book or ask some friends or family. Someone is an electrician. I had my father-in-law do my shop and don't have that problem at all. 12-2 is plenty for outlets, well, actually you can't use 14-2 that is for lights only. 10-2 would be used for your 220 but to run outlets on would get EXPENSIVE!!


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## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

the one thing is that the two florecent lights i have are just the plug in type


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*almost true...*



dwendt1978 said:


> Have you tried killing the breakers that your tools are on and see if they are connected to the lights as well?? This sounds like what you have going on.
> 
> Dave is right, get a book or ask some friends or family. Someone is an electrician. I had my father-in-law do my shop and don't have that problem at all. *12-2 is plenty for outlets, well, actually you can't use 14-2 that is for lights only*. 10-2 would be used for your 220 but to run outlets on would get EXPENSIVE!!


You can run an outlet on 14-2, but the maximum current draw is 15 amps, not 20 amps as with 12-3 which is best for larger motors like a dust collector and table saws. 12-3 makes also a good wire for 220v 20 amp circuits for 3 Hp motors. :smile: bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Woodworkingkid said:


> does anyone know how much an electrishion would charge for this


$168.87












 







.


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> $168.87
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tax included?


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Ycreek said:


> Do I remember someone posting that you can run 10/2 w/grnd to everything(except lights) so that you can easily convert to 220 by changing the breaker and the receptacle?


 You can run it for lights also but it makes no sense. The problem comes from to small of wire not to large.


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## Ycreek (Dec 8, 2010)

rrbrown said:


> You can run it for lights also but it makes no sense. The problem comes from to small of wire not to large.


Poorly worded. I wrote "Except lights" because it was unnecessary. I'm an electrical idiot but I do know that a 110V (120V) light would never need 10ga wire


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## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

i think i figured out the problem so the two lights i have are just plug in types. When i run any tool above 12 amps the lights dont have enough power to run. I know this because when running a ros or sawzall in one of the two plugs there is no real affect on the lights because of the amps drawn. So what i have to do is hard wire in my lights and put them on there own seperat circut


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## would (May 26, 2009)

Woodworkingkid said:


> when ever i run my miter saw or circular saw in the lights dim and stay dim. i only have 3 outlets and this happens in two out of three which makes it hard to do much only having one plug. I can run small stuff it the two plugs such as a ros without the lights dimming so i need to figure out why this is happening.


Unless I missed a page in these postings they really let you off easy. If your lights go dim and stay dim you not only have overloaded your circuit wiring but you are probably damaging your tools as well. An underpowered, voltage too low, tool will pull more current to create the power it needs to do the job. This causes the wiring in the tool to heat up and that causes the lacquer insulation on the internal wiring to start failing. When the lacquer insulation fails some of the motor windings short out, your tool still works but it is becoming impaired. As more and more windings short out the tool has to pull more and more amps which causes even more heating and more burnout of the insulation. Even an occaisional situation creates permanent damage to the motor, you shorten the life of the tool and lose some power which causes eventual complete failure. 

I saw people mention using 10 gauge for wiring so it can be converted to 220v usage, but in reality a 220v tool will draw half the amperage of its same 110v wiring, meaning it can get by on smaller wiring. The problem with using 10 guage wiring to normal outlets is that they are not designed for it, the wires won't easily connect to the outlet and you have created a definite point of failure that is a fire hazard. The breaker in the panel and the outlet have to match, the wiring can be oversized if you can connect it to the outlet properly. For a typical wood shop I would think 12 gauge wiring for a 220v circuit is good, only if you have something really big pulling more than 15 amps at 220v would going larger be rational. A 220v circuit should only have one outlet on it, the 110v circuits can have multiple outlets or points, the number depends on things beyond the scope of a wood working forum. 

If you have a way to measure the voltage at your shop while you turns things on it would help you understand how serious a problem you might have. I have a UPS for my PC that shows the voltage on its front panel, it is interesting to note how the power varies throughout the day even with no load, apparent fluctuations in the power available to my house. In your situation I am guessing you would see the voltage drop below 110v any time you turn on your saws, a bad situation, normal power is closer to 120v. 

One last thing, fluorescent lights should not be your only light source in a shop because it is cycling off and on at 120 (60Hz x 2) times per second and this can make a turning saw blade look stationary. Some incandescents and plenty of natural lighting is the solution. Although I have not read anything about the CFL type lights I would think they behave the same. Using different circuits for two different lights doesn't cure that problem but is a good plan to avoid the potential of being in the dark in the shop if a breaker does trip.


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

would said:


> Unless I missed a page in these postings they really let you off easy. If your lights go dim and stay dim you not only have overloaded your circuit wiring but you are probably damaging your tools as well. An underpowered, voltage too low, tool will pull more current to create the power it needs to do the job. This causes the wiring in the tool to heat up and that causes the shellac insulation on the internal wiring to start failing. When the shellac insulation fails some of the motor windings short out, your tool still works but it is becoming impaired. As more and more windings short out the tool has to pull more and more amps which causes even more heating and more burnout of the insulation. Even an occaisional situation creates permanent damage to the motor, you shorten the life of the tool and lose some power which causes eventual complete failure.
> 
> I saw people mention using 10 gauge for wiring so it can be converted to 220v usage, but in reality a 220v tool will draw half the amperage of its same 110v wiring, meaning it can get by on smaller wiring. The problem with using 10 guage wiring to normal outlets is that they are not designed for it, the wires won't easily connect to the outlet and you have created a definite point of failure that is a fire hazard. The breaker in the panel and the outlet have to match, the wiring can be oversized if you can connect it to the outlet properly. For a typical wood shop I would think 12 gauge wiring for a 220v circuit is good, only if you have something really big pulling more than 15 amps at 220v would going larger be rational. A 220v circuit should only have one outlet on it, the 110v circuits can have multiple outlets or points, the number depends on things beyond the scope of a wood working forum.
> 
> ...


+1 VERY GOOD EXPLANATION :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I sat down a few times at a few different posts, and was trying to say exactly the same things. I have a real good understanding of electricity (not an electrician, but my dad is, and he taught me enough to be dangerous). You explained it better than I could have.

You are so right about the power fluctuations. My friend has it so bad, that his voltage would drop to 85v during the day and it ended up frying his tv and home theater.

didn't know that about the flourenscent lights.... Learn something everyday.

Fabian


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

would said:


> Unless I missed a page in these postings they really let you off easy. If your lights go dim and stay dim you not only have overloaded your circuit wiring but you are probably damaging your tools as well. An underpowered, voltage too low, tool will pull more current to create the power it needs to do the job. This causes the wiring in the tool to heat up and that causes the shellac insulation on the internal wiring to start failing. When the shellac insulation fails some of the motor windings short out, your tool still works but it is becoming impaired. As more and more windings short out the tool has to pull more and more amps which causes even more heating and more burnout of the insulation. Even an occaisional situation creates permanent damage to the motor, you shorten the life of the tool and lose some power which causes eventual complete failure.
> 
> I saw people mention using 10 gauge for wiring so it can be converted to 220v usage, but in reality a 220v tool will draw half the amperage of its same 110v wiring, meaning it can get by on smaller wiring. The problem with using 10 guage wiring to normal outlets is that they are not designed for it, the wires won't easily connect to the outlet and you have created a definite point of failure that is a fire hazard. The breaker in the panel and the outlet have to match, the wiring can be oversized if you can connect it to the outlet properly. For a typical wood shop I would think 12 gauge wiring for a 220v circuit is good, only if you have something really big pulling more than 15 amps at 220v would going larger be rational. A 220v circuit should only have one outlet on it, the 110v circuits can have multiple outlets or points, the number depends on things beyond the scope of a wood working forum.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent write up, thanks. Just one point you may have overlooked. Most of the posts concerning 220 were stipulating 2 conductor w/ground, ie. 12-2 w/g. This can be done but shouldn't be. One would need to use the white conductor for the second hot lead and the ground wire for the neutral. Electrically would work but is not safe by any stretch. 
I must also disagree about the 120 hz "flicker" causing the blade to visually stop. To visually "stop" a 10", 40 tooth blade at 4000 rpm would require a "flicker" freguency in the neighborhood of 2.7 kilohertz. This is doable with the high frequency neon or led strobe lights as are used in automotive timing lights but not likely with florescent lighting. The persistance of the phosphors used alone will tend to negate any strobe effect. I do agree that a mix of florescent, incandescent and natural is the best option for a myraid of reasons but pure florescent is not a problem.


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## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

there is no natural light avalible as there are no windoes in my shop i dont use the two plugs that casue the lights to dim but i would like to be able to use them


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## tcleve4911 (Dec 16, 2006)

cabinetman said:


> $168.87


that's $168.87 per hour.....


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

jschaben said:


> Excellent write up, thanks. Just one point you may have overlooked. Most of the posts concerning 220 were stipulating 2 conductor w/ground, ie. 12-2 w/g. This can be done but shouldn't be. One would need to use the white conductor for the second hot lead and the ground wire for the neutral. Electrically would work but is not safe by any stretch.
> I must also disagree about the 120 hz "flicker" causing the blade to visually stop. To visually "stop" a 10", 40 tooth blade at 4000 rpm would require a "flicker" freguency in the neighborhood of 2.7 kilohertz. This is doable with the high frequency neon or led strobe lights as are used in automotive timing lights but not likely with florescent lighting. The persistance of the phosphors used alone will tend to negate any strobe effect. I do agree that a mix of florescent, incandescent and natural is the best option for a myraid of reasons but pure florescent is not a problem.


12/2 w/ground works fine for 220v. 220 requires 2 hot leads, and a ground. There is no neutral in a 220 circuit. The practice is to wrap the white wire with black tape signifying it is hot, not neutral.


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## would (May 26, 2009)

Brink said:


> 12/2 w/ground works fine for 220v. 220 requires 2 hot leads, and a ground. There is no neutral in a 220 circuit. The practice is to wrap the white wire with black tape signifying it is hot, not neutral.


Overall I agree with you, but if you buy a 220v romex type wire it will normally have the two hot leads as red and black (or similar) a neutral as white and a paper wrapped bare wire for the safety ground. The intention is to use the white as the neutral and tie the ground wire to the metal box or a ground screw on the outlet which is attached to any exposed metal portions of the outlet. 

Also with some 220v units they may have a 120v circuit such as a light bulb, an electric clothes dryer is a good example. I don't know that any power tools have that type scenario but I would not rule it out. If a 220v device has a 120v element in it, it most likely is pulling power off of one hot lead and feeding it back to the neutral. There is a remote chance the manufacturer built in a step down isolation transformer or used some electronic power control to handle that circuit, but the odds of hitting the lotto are better. The point is, the neutral wire may have current flowing on it. It still won't matter too much if that is the case unless you have tied that bare neutral wire to the green ground screw connector. If you have to run a new 220v circuit it is worth the effort and cost to go with the full four wire wiring IMO.


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