# Improper Lacquer application?



## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

I was working on touching up the finish on a table, and after getting it looking all pretty and sanded nice and smooth, I sprayed (aerosol) a final top coat of lacquer (clear gloss) to shine it up and provide some additional protection. Unfortunately, rather than being smooth and glossy, the finish ended up being textured and dull - it feels more like a rough piece of cloth (although evenly rough at least) than a smooth pane of glass. Probably just my lack of experience showing (everything I know I figured out myself), but what did I do wrong, and how do I fix it? Should I sand it smooth again and re-apply one more coat? spray it with a coat of lacquer thiner and hope it self-levels? Did I use the wrong product - maybe I needed to use a brushing lacquer rather than an aerosol spray? Something in the environment? Let me know if more information is needed! Thanks.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

you didn't mention the other steps/ sealers, stains etc. Most lacquers require lacquer bases/sealers. It could be something you wiped the wood with, it could be a stain you used, it could be not letting stain dry correctly.....MANY, MANY variables!!!


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Agreed, entirely too many variables to give a definite answer as-is. You say you were touching up the finish on a table, is this a table you made and are in the process of finishing and the final coat went south, or is this an old table youre refinishing? Is the lacquer going on top of more lacquer, or is there a different finish underneath it? What was the environment like during and after the spraying?

Making a wild guess by assuming this is a table youve made and are applying a finish to for the first time, and without any pictures of the surface, im going to assume that the problem is spraying in a warm environment with the can too far away from the piece. If the finish spends too long in the air, the solvents can mostly flash off and the finish wont be able to level out because of it. Picture overspray, but on the workpiece instead of everything else. If, and this is a big if, but if thats the issue its an issue of spray technique, easily fixed. Bring the nozzle a touch closer, lay the finish on just a tick heavier, you want it to go on wet. All a guess to whats happening though, pictures would help a lot


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## mjadams61 (Jan 1, 2016)

Did you clean it after you sanded it? With a damp clothe or a vac with a brush attachment to get the sawdust off from sanding and did you use a water base laquer if you did and didnt prep the wood correctly it would cause the grain to raise.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is a couple of things it might be. If the old finish you were touching up was varnish the strong solvents in the lacquer could have lifted the finish. If the old finish was lacquer or shellac then it sounds like orange peal. It's where the lacquer was sprayed on too dry to flow out. Lacquer dries so fast it has to be applied wet. If not then it has a texture to it. 

I think it best you post a picture so we can have a better guess as to what happened. In any case you can't just spray a spot with lacquer. It will leave a halo around where it was applied. You have to spray the entire panel you are working on to be able to spray it and call it done. Otherwise you have to rub out the finish with rubbing compound to blend it in.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies!



epicfail48 said:


> Agreed, entirely too many variables to give a definite answer as-is.


Which is PRECISELY why I said "let me know if more information is needed" - I don't know what is important and what is not . To address the questions brought up:

- This is an old table I was given. It had a few cloudy marks, presumably from hot drinks being placed directly on the table. I got rid of the marks through a combination of sanding and applications of "Restor -a- finish" (perhaps that's the problem?).
- I did clean the table with water after each sanding pass. I didn't use mineral spirits or the like, if that's a potential problem
- I'm *assuming* that the table has a lacquer finish (thus the top coating with lacquer). I'm pretty sure it's not shellack at least, because it didn't react to an application of denatured alcohol at all. Could be varnish though - I'm not up on the differences, or how to tell for sure.
- The spray lacquer didn't seem to go on very wet - and I thought I was spraying a heavy coat. Now I'm not so sure. It definitely din't *look* very wet.
- Photo attached

Hopefully this helps narrow down the problem. As before, let me know if more information is needed! Thanks!


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

It's also probably important to note that I did *NOT*strip the table all the way back to bare wood - I only did enough to get rid of the water marks. So whatever base coats/sealants/stains were used in the original finish remained, as well as at least a portion of the top coat (lacquer or varnish, I'd assume).


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Just a couple of thoughts of mine.


That's a big surface to do with a rattle can. I'd think you might nearly empty an entire can just to get one coat. If you were just "dusting it" trying to even things up, it would likely dry before it could flow out, producing the result you experienced. 


Second thought is that it almost always requires ore than one coat to get that glassy gloss. In some cases, it can take many, many, many coats.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Quickstep said:


> That's a big surface to do with a rattle can. I'd think you might nearly empty an entire can just to get one coat. If you were just "dusting it" trying to even things up, it would likely dry before it could flow out, producing the result you experienced.


So that could be the main problem then. I did empty the can, but in three coats, not one. Perhaps each coat was too light, causing it to dry too quickly? I did notice that it didn't really seem very wet after each coat. If so, then perhaps the solution is to sand it back to smooth, then use a brushing lacquer that I can make sure goes on wet? Or is there a better option?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is a good chance the table is finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. I think the problem is it's not possible to spray a dining table top with a rattle can. There is no way you can get enough volume of lacquer through a rattle can to do it. It would take nearly a pint of lacquer to spray a table top that size. 

Now, having said that you could spray the table with multiple rattle cans and it would look terrible after you got done but could be rubbed out and buffed. You would to make sure you sprayed the finish slow enough that it went on the table wet. It's just where you start and stop would leave a line which would have to be rubbed out. 

If you have compressed air in your shop I would recommend purchasing a paint sprayer. It doesn't have to be a high dollar sprayer, a twenty dollar sprayer from Harbor Freight would spray lacquer fine. I use their #97855 sprayer myself. Even then there is a learning curve. You sort of have to spray rows of paint overlapping each row so it has a continuous wet edge from one end of the table to the other. If you advance too fast it will leave lap marks sort of like what the rattle can does.


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## Chadsander (Dec 25, 2018)

i have a table that is over twice this size that needs refinished that got out of the Baldwin piano factory board room. the leather arms of the chairs seam to have damaged the clear coat. would the best thing to do be to sand it all down and roll a clear coat on it. i will post pictures soon.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> There is a good chance the table is finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. I think the problem is it's not possible to spray a dining table top with a rattle can. There is no way you can get enough volume of lacquer through a rattle can to do it. It would take nearly a pint of lacquer to spray a table top that size.
> 
> Now, having said that you could spray the table with multiple rattle cans and it would look terrible after you got done but could be rubbed out and buffed. You would to make sure you sprayed the finish slow enough that it went on the table wet. It's just where you start and stop would leave a line which would have to be rubbed out.


Yeah, I was wondering if the "rattle can" was the problem. Convenient for some things, but apparently not appropriate for this.



Steve Neul said:


> If you have compressed air in your shop I would recommend purchasing a paint sprayer. It doesn't have to be a high dollar sprayer, a twenty dollar sprayer from Harbor Freight would spray lacquer fine. I use their #97855 sprayer myself. Even then there is a learning curve. You sort of have to spray rows of paint overlapping each row so it has a continuous wet edge from one end of the table to the other. If you advance too fast it will leave lap marks sort of like what the rattle can does.


Yay, an excuse to get a sprayer! :smile2: What about a HVLP sprayer such as https://www.rockler.com/rockler-hvlp-finishing-sprayer (to pick one at random)? Or would you only recommend a compressed air sprayer? At the moment I only have a little 3 gallon compressor, which I would imagine wouldn't be sufficient. Would I use a "brushing" lacquer in that, or is there some other lacquer specifically for spraying I need to look for?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ibrewster said:


> Yeah, I was wondering if the "rattle can" was the problem. Convenient for some things, but apparently not appropriate for this.
> 
> 
> 
> Yay, an excuse to get a sprayer! :smile2: What about a HVLP sprayer such as https://www.rockler.com/rockler-hvlp-finishing-sprayer (to pick one at random)? Or would you only recommend a compressed air sprayer? At the moment I only have a little 3 gallon compressor, which I would imagine wouldn't be sufficient. Would I use a "brushing" lacquer in that, or is there some other lacquer specifically for spraying I need to look for?


I don't care for a HVLP sprayer. Every one I've ever bought sprayed more air than paint and went into the trash.

Brushing lacquer is alright for something small like pens but you can't do a table top with it. Lacquer dries so fast you would leave terrible brush marks all of the table and would end up having to strip it. The rattle can would be better than brushing lacquer. 

Your little compressor might be a problem. Unless you could link another tank to it you might run out of air before you could spray even half the table. You could open up the table and just do half at a time. It would make the drying time terribly long this time of year but you could add a lot of retarder thinner to the lacquer so you could spray faster. Retarder thinner slows down the drying time and makes it less likely to get lap marks but using it you might only be able to put one coat on per day.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't care for a HVLP sprayer. Every one I've ever bought sprayed more air than paint and went into the trash.


Roger that.



Steve Neul said:


> Brushing lacquer is alright for something small like pens but you can't do a table top with it. Lacquer dries so fast you would leave terrible brush marks all of the table and would end up having to strip it. The rattle can would be better than brushing lacquer.


So what should I be looking for? All I can remember seeing at the big box stores is either quarts of brushing lacquer or the "rattle cans". Should I be able to find just straight (non-brushing) lacquer if I look in the proper stores?



Steve Neul said:


> Your little compressor might be a problem. Unless you could link another tank to it you might run out of air before you could spray even half the table. You could open up the table and just do half at a time. It would make the drying time terribly long this time of year but you could add a lot of retarder thinner to the lacquer so you could spray faster. Retarder thinner slows down the drying time and makes it less likely to get lap marks but using it you might only be able to put one coat on per day.


One coat a day isn't an issue - I've got all the time in the world (well, to get this project done at least). I'm thinking do a test (or several) with just water just to a) get a little practice, and b) see how long the tank actually lasts.


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## Chadsander (Dec 25, 2018)

Chadsander said:


> i have a table that is over twice this size that needs refinished that got out of the Baldwin piano factory board room. the leather arms of the chairs seam to have damaged the clear coat. would the best thing to do be to sand it all down and roll a clear coat on it. i will post pictures soon.



here are the pictures, any suggestions?


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Do be aware that all of these finishes are especially dangerous when sprayed. They are highly volatile and even more so when atomized and they are significant health hazards and proper protection is a must.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ibrewster said:


> Roger that.
> 
> 
> So what should I be looking for? All I can remember seeing at the big box stores is either quarts of brushing lacquer or the "rattle cans". Should I be able to find just straight (non-brushing) lacquer if I look in the proper stores?
> ...


You can get conventional lacquer at Sherwin Williams. Spraying it you could use the brushing lacquer. The difference between regular lacquer and brushing lacquer is they load it down with retarder thinner to slow the drying time down. Functionally it's the same thing. 

On your water test, the water is thinner than lacquer and would go a bit quicker than lacquer does. When you spray a row of finish overlap the previous row two to three inches. Visually it's sort of like laying shingles where one row overlaps the previous. You also have to spray enough on that it's still very wet when you spray the next row. By doing this you lay a continuous layer of lacquer from one end to the other. This is how you eliminate the hand work in rubbing it out.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Chadsander said:


> here are the pictures, any suggestions?


The thing about lacquer is an old dried finish can be liquefied with lacquer thinner, just like putting alcohol on shellac. The finish on the table might be able to be salvaged by recoating it. Start with a thorough cleaning with a wax and grease remover. Then the spots pour some lacquer thinner on it and let it sit. Don't touch it with anything, just let it sit and dry. If the spots go away after it dries do the between the coats sanding and spray it with sanding sealer and when that dries sand it enough the surface scratches are gone and put another coat of sealer on. Then lightly scuff sand it and apply two coats of finish. 

The leather on the chairs can be washed with lacquer thinner until you clean that off. It will be very drying to the leather so after the solvent dries use something to moisturize the leather and you should be good to go.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Ok, so spray on a coat (or more) of Lacquer using a spray gun, thinned down a bit with a retarder thinner so the small size of my compressor and having to pause for it to recharge doesn't result in sections drying before I'm finished (also work on half the table at a time for the same reason). Is that a correct understanding?

Do I need to sand down the existing finish smooth first, or should the additional coats smooth it out?


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

The 2 most important considerations:
1) do you know if the table was hand made or factory made.
If hand made , quite possibly be polyurethane finish on it. Lacquer would melt the poly and it would become obvious - bubbling and soft and messy for several minutes. If it were old factory made could be either shellac if REALLY old or lacquer if newer than around 100 years. If shellac, the surface would have completely wrinkled from the lacquer.
What is your best guess?

2) I am not a fan of rattle cans In order to work properly, the surface has to be WET from lacquer. Other than applied WET, it wont work. Also, when ever painting over an existing surface, you should always use a primer. Primer is designed to stick to ALMOST anything. Once applied, anything compatible with that primer should stick to it. So, lacquer primer first, then lacquer top coat. 

The best assurance of success would be to strip the old finish off completely and make believe rattle cans were never invented.

I ran a successful commercial woodworking business and did tons of refinishing. My last spray system was an HVLP set-up. Not the top-of-the line set-up, but not. the Harbor freight junk either. It was an Earlex for around $300 and I was very happy with it. I mostly used pre-cat lacquer and had great success with it. it came with 2 tips and I ordered the optional one size larger tip.
I had to spray using lacquer thinner although the manufacturer of the lacquer says not to. I loved that gun. 

Sorry you are having problems with your project. Maybe next time ask questions before shooting. Nothing to be shy about here.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Tony B said:


> The 2 most important considerations:
> 1) do you know if the table was hand made or factory made.
> If hand made , quite possibly be polyurethane finish on it. Lacquer would melt the poly and it would become obvious - bubbling and soft and messy for several minutes. If it were old factory made could be either shellac if REALLY old or lacquer if newer than around 100 years. If shellac, the surface would have completely wrinkled from the lacquer.
> What is your best guess?
> ...


Thanks for the information, good stuff to keep in mind next time. For this particular project, I am confident in saying it's NOT a shellac finish (no reaction to an application of alcohol), and as it's factory made, most likely a lacquer. As there was no bubbling or the like with the application of lacquer, I'm thinking it's safe to say it's not poly. So I'm going with Lacquer.

Yeah, in retrospect, asking first would have been good. That said, I have done plenty of finishing (generally using poly though), so I didn't really think this would be significantly different. Shows how much I have to learn! At any rate, given the current state of the table, I'm thinking a complete strip would be overkill at this point - the color is nice, and the finish decent, just not glossy due to the texturing. So if I can fix it with just a sanding and WET coat (or several) of lacquer, I'm happy.

Thanks again!


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

If it could fit into your budget, I would seriously consider the Earlex HVLP for aa little over $300. The unit is entirely portable. No need for an air compressor. 
Ironic story.........several years ago when I bought my Earlex for my shop it was my first HVLP. I had it less than a week when I got a call from a local that built his own cabinets. He wanted to know if he brought them to my shop if I would be able to spray them with lacquer. He also would love to be able to do it in his garage if possible. That would save him from bringing them to me or me charging for pick-up and delivery.
I told him I was 'portable'. I asked him to clear his garage out and set up saw horses. The weather was forecast to be nice outside. So I get there and we opened the garage door for ventilation and placed some floor fans to blow outside.

I sprayed all of the carcases', doors and drawer fronts with him helping me move the sprayed stuff around. I used about 1 gal. of primer and about 2 gals of lacquer and 1 gal of thinner. It's been a while so I am not sure of these quantities. I remember it took me around 3 hours to spray and move stuff and clean-up (mostly resting my arms) and 1 hour travel time. It was about $100 for materials and 1 hour travel time. My billing rate at the time was approx $60/ Hour and so I rounded out the price to $350 + Tx. He was more than happy with the price and speed. 

I dont know how familiar you are with lacquer so I'll just mention that it turns to dust before it hits the floor. And can be re-coated in 10 to 15 minutes. Clean-up requires nothing more than sweeping the floor as far as the work area goes. As far as the spray set-up is concerned, just empty any unused lacquer back into the 5 gal bucket, put some thinner into used spray cup, swirl around and pour into same 5 gal lacquer can for re-use. Then fill spray cup 1/2 way with thinner and spray into trash can or on un-needed surface till it is halfway gone. This will have cleaned the nozzles etc. Then just return the gun set-up to the holder with 1/4 fill of thinner and thats it. I used it almost every day so I didnt have to do a thorough clean but maybe once a month. A thorough clean takes about 45 minutes.

Anyway, the irony was that the gun was not even a week old and this opportunity came along. 

Bottom line is once you spray lacquer (pre-cat, conversion lacquer or whatever the newer versions are) you will never finish any other way.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

far from an expert here, but I know that lacquer "builds" up a thickness from multiple applications. so sanding, as in sanding the last coat off, is not really required, as the next coat will melt into the last one. you may only need to hit it lightly.


I agree with both tips on the guns- the hf ones do an ok job on things, and I have seen many earlex hvlp systems out there in shops.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

TimPa said:


> .... lacquer "builds" up a thickness from multiple applications.


Actually, lacquer doesn't build up very many coats. usually just the primer and 2 top coats. The finished thickness is usually 3 - 5 mils MAX. 
Although in most cases, primer is not required but I always use it. The beauty of working lacquer is in that you can prep the work area, apply 3 coats of lacquer, clean up and put stuff away in under an hour. 
It becomes dust free in about 2 minutes and within 5 minutes, it can be lightly handled.

I read somewhere, but not verified, Pre-cat lacquer is being replaced by Conversion Lacquer which is a great improvement. It is arguably the best, easiest and most versatile finish that both commercial and home shops can use. 

Man, I sure miss my shop.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, final result attached. Hardly professional I don't think, but at least it's better than it started and much more glossy than it was before. Just a bit "pockmarked", and, of course, the one spot that apparently lost its stain. Any suggestions for improvement, or should I just call it good? Thanks.


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## ibrewster (Apr 18, 2012)

If anyone is curious, this is what I started with.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

It's always difficult to analyze a defect via photo but here goes anyway. 

Post 25 shows a spot where there is presumably old paint missing. Now look at that closely, nagnifying glass would help. If the finish is at the same depth or thickness as the surrounding immediately adjacent to it, Then it is the existing spot (prior to you) that should have been addressed before you applied your finish. That means you should have tried to color it in. Several ways to do that. Slould be a new different thread.. 

If instead of the above condition, the spot is 'depressed' and lower than the rest of your finish. That would indicate that some kind of oil or other contaminant is deep into the wood. This is normally "Fish Eye" and if you look close enough, there will be a slight swirl of the clear lacauer and will lokk lik a fish's EYE. 

Again, hard to tell from a photo but anyway here is what I see...........The surface will never be flat like a mirror unless other procedures are performed Anyway, One of your coats may have been applied just a tad too thick.

Both of these conditions are easily remedied. 
Over all, it is a great first job and i'm not just saying that to encourage you. Without supervision in the room, it is a great job.


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