# Darkening Shellac (pics included)



## monty1975 (Apr 6, 2009)

What started as a quickie bathroom remodel turned into something larger when I removed the baseboard trim and door casing to find beautiful birch underneath 90 years of paint.

Underneath the paint I got a few glimpses of a dark rich finish which I think was a varnish over a stain. I'd like to replicate that dark rich stain without muting (too much) the birch grain.

I've acquired some old birch doors with their original shellac finish over stain and have fallen in love with the look. While I'm able to duplicate the stain (dark walnut on birch) I am unable to get the shellac dark enough - even tried mixing my own Garnet from Shellac Shack. In another project I applied about 10 coats of a 2 lb cut and it got dark but the topcoat was too thick and chips easily + sanding was difficult as thinner spots didn't have enough color.

Question - how can I tint shellac (I have my own flakes of super blonde, amber, ruby, and garnet) to achieve a shellac finish visible in one of the pictures below


In this picture you can see the crackled shellac finish on a door that I'd like to replicate - it has a really deep brown/red color. You can see a spot where I have removed the shellac to reveal stained wood. In this pic you can also see some stained casing from my bathroom (bottom of pic) - the stain ont he door and the casing is very similar.











Here's a closeup of the old finish and the underlying stain.











Here's what I've done so far -
Applied (in rapid fashion) four test coats of a 2lb cut of garnet shellac over a stained birch board (right). The finish is very golden/orange in natural light and I don't like it. The board on the left is unfinished.












Does anyone have any experience dying shellac? What base color shellac do I use and what dye should I use (and in what quantities) to achieve the deep brown/red color of the door in the picture above. I want to finish to be transparent enough to see the strong birch grain but don't want to apply an excessive amounts of shellac coats to do it.

Thanks!
brian


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

imo....strip with a chemical stripper, that will help with removing more stain out of the wood (jasco).
then find a color you like in a gel stain mop it on and wipe it off, let dry over night then put a poly on it. i wouldnt use a shellac in the bathroom.
from what i see your golden/orange area's are where the stain came out or the wood more than others, giving you more of the natural wood with a washed red stain. with most refinishes ( unless youve got most of the stain out ) you may need to tone your work in order to get an even look.---toneing is applying diluted stain through a cup gun.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Mix your shellac in alcohol and then add some of this stain. It is an alcohol based dye and will be completely compatible. All you have to do now if figure out the color...


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## monty1975 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Unfortunately I have already stripped everything I'm working on with heat (silent paint remover) and have sanded. Maybe next time I will try chemicals to get out the final traces of stain. I have so much paint to strip it will be a 20 year project at this rate. 



Rick Mosher said:


> Mix your shellac in alcohol and then add some of this stain. It is an alcohol based dye and will be completely compatible. All you have to do now if figure out the color...


 
Rick,
I have one more local paint store to check today but I've been unable to find anyone who carries alcohol soluable dyes/tints. Most places look at me funny like I'm trying to get supplies for a meth lab or something. One guy at the Benjamin Moore store at least knew what I was trying to do and mumbled something about old timers carrying around bottles of dye. Today I will check the Sherwin Williams store. 

What I'd like to avoid is buying a bunch of bottles at $15/pop online to try to figure out what color works given the stain on the wood which has a washed out brown/red/pinkinsh with dark grain accents look to it. If I'm using super blonde shellac, do you have any suggestions as to what tint might get me to the final color on that door in the picture above?

I'm thinking raw umber or extra dark walnut.

Thanks,
Brian


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Sherwin Williams has their S61 line of concentrated dye stains. These will mix in either acetone or water or a mix of both. They are VERY expensive though... In the Mohawk line I would think "cherry" would be very close to the color you want and maybe some black to darken it if needed.


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## monty1975 (Apr 6, 2009)

update: 
Purchased several colors of alcohol dye powder from Lockwood and started experimenting.

findings
- the dye powder is VERY concentrated. A single OZ of power is supposed to be mixed with 2-4 pints (32-64 OZ) of Alchohol.

- adding the powder directly to the shellac doesn't work well (shellac gets gritty and it's very difficult to control the color because the powder is so concentrated)

- brushing dyed shellac is going to be difficult unless the dye is very diluted due to brush overlap marks

- starting to understand why it's better to get the wood as dark as desired with stain and then add a clear top coat



I still haven't found a good color and will begin experimenting with adding small amounts (drops) of ready-mixed dye to shellac as soon as my wife brings home some pipettes from her work. Have a few questions

- Is it possible to add alcohol dye stain over a dry oil based penetrating stain? Will there be any issues long term?

- Will I be able to remove the tinted shellac the same way I can remove regular shellac or will the dye permiate the wood when applied or when wiped with alcohol?


I'd love to experiment on scap wood but all I have is pine and the old red birch that I'm working with (no scrap) acts very different than pine. Thanks for your patience on this - I feel like i'm in over my head and do not want to have to strip and start over. Also - if it looks like crap my wife will force me to paint it white and I don't want to do that!

Thanks,
brian


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

When you think you are getting close you can experiment on the back of a door or drawer front. Then you can always sand it off if it doesn't look good. 

Dye stains are better when allowed to penetrate into the wood. When used in topcoats or sealer you must be very subtle or you will get a muddied effect even with the dye. The reason for this is you are also coloring the highlights of the wood grain, essentially evening the color out (and a little goes a long way)where dye wiped on raw wood allows the highlights to sparkle no matter how intense you go. 

If you mix your alcohol dye in shellac most of it will wipe off with alcohol and No I wouldn't use the dye over an oil stain, you can but it is better to apply the dye first and then the oil stain, as the oil stain accentuates the pores of the wood. Some woods look good this way (oak) some do not (cherry, maple) that's why you do samples somewhere inconspicuous first.


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

your making it real hard on yourself. for a beginner a gel stain would be much easier to deal with. when you put a color into a finish its called glazing.
it takes a good understanding of color to mix and match, not every one can do it. from your pics if you can get zar gel stain ( try ace hardware )
get a qt of dark mohogany, #118, and cherry #116. put half your cherry in a mixing cup and then add the mohog a little at a time till you get the shade you want. with as much stain that is still in your wood you might even try mohog alone, then if you want more cherry ( red/orange ) you can wipe on the cherry over the mohog. any time your trying to get a just the right color, specialy color matching, you want to put your top coat on your test piece because, more times than not will change it a bit. i cant tell you how many times i got the perfect match, put a top coat on it and ....damn not there.
i top my stained wood in bathrooms with a spar varnish ( man-o-war ) and i spray. for someone who is brushing i would recoment helmsman by minwax. it brushes nice lays down real good and dries pretty quick. just my 4 cents.


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## monty1975 (Apr 6, 2009)

So I tried to tint shellac and gave up on it. I was able to create what looked like a Garnet shellac from a blonde but when I went darker, brush overlap lines really started to show. While I could probably perfect the tecnique with lots of sanding, the extra effort is not worth it -- after all this is trim.

So - I applied two more coats of gel stain to darken the wood- one dark mahogany (old masters) and one dark walnut (Minwax) and it hardly made a difference.

To apply I brush on, wait 5 minutes and then wipe off. Am I supposed to be doing anything else?

I have a feeling I made my key mistakes early. I used minwax pre stain conditioner to reduce blotching - I'm thinking it reduced the ability for the penetrating stain to get deep into the wood. I also sanded with a 100 grit RO sander and then finshed by block with 100 grit. I'm thought 100 was coarse but maybe next time I will try 80 as this wood is old and hard. 


steps
use heat and scraper to remove paint and old varnish
sand to remove stain
minwax pre-stain conditioner
minwax dark walnut stain
old masters dark mahogany gel stain
minwax dark walnut gel stain

.... and the wood is still a fairly light brown and i'm looking for something darker.

Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions. I'm learning what NOT to do in the future. Luckily this is all in a very small and realitively dark powder room (bathroom) so there is a lot of room for learning.

Brian


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

did you put the gel stain over the shellac, if you did then the wood i sealed and a stain wont penitrate. your minwax conditioner and the stain pretty much sealed the wood.

80...............stop... way too course. 120 at the most and finish with 220 for hard wood.


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## monty1975 (Apr 6, 2009)

Reporting back in...

After finishing the Shellac with 320 and then 600 grit (wet sanded with mineral spirits) the shellac was nice and smooth but it still looked scuffed. Hit it with 0000 steel wool and it still looked scuffed. Lots of people recommend rubbing shellac with steel wool but afterwards the finish just looked like it had very fine scratches all over it.

This wood is in a bathroom so I didn't want to wax the wood to cover up the fine scratches (used dewaxed shellac to avoid white spotting from splashes) so I went out to the garage and grabbed Mcguiar's Scratch X which is an automotive finish scratch remover. I then polished all of the wood and it left a really nice surface. The finish is pretty reflective and clear but does not look super glossy and wet.

In the indoor pictures,the trim looks blotchy but it is not. The camera has a hard time catching the depth of this wood - it looks different depending on the angle and when photographed, these areas look like blotches.

I learned a lot of lessons on this wood!

(still need to fill the old and new nail holes)

Some pics:





























THanks for all of the help guys!
Brian


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