# making a poster frame



## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Background blabble: So we've collected quite a few posters but never could afford to frame them. I started making a frame for a poster (under the one shown) and was going to do a tongue and groove and with the rough side. The other poster was dark and I'm a bit more drawn to seeing the clean wood grain (its heart pine I got out of the house from 1839). So because I messed up the cuts I cant do the clean side and got out one of our smaller posters (shown). 

Question: any suggestion on how to make this? Should I leave it squared or route a profile on the inside or outsie edge...or both? leave the outside edge rough? I only have a few router bits (the onea that come with the smaller mlcs kit) and two whiteside edge beads. I'm planning to rip the width down to 2-2.25".its about 1 1/16" thick. 

I'm not planning to stain it or anything but just finish with waterlox. Any other suggsstions?

I think I'm just going to mitre the corners this time. The poster is 16x25. I'm assuming just a glue up is stong enough to hold it all together or should I reinforce it in any way? I will have glass. 

Thanks!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If it were me I would lap the joints and after assembly route out the back side to insert the artwork and a backer board. I know nothing about posters. Hopefully they are near standard sizes so you can make the frames all alike so from time to time you could change the artwork without making new frames.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

For starters, a mitered joint will not be strong enough--no matter what kind of glue you use because it will have a relatively small surface area of glue and it will be end-grain to end-grain, so it will be a poor bond. Miter joints are common on frames, though, because they look balanced and appealing from the front. You need to reinforce the joint so that there can be edge-grain surface areas for the glue to work with. I like splines personally in the corners. Another way would be to have half-lap joints with a mitered top. 

As for channeling the frame stock for the glass, poster, and backing materials to fit, this is a must. I like to just rip the channels in the frame sections before hand on the table saw. Two cuts are all that is needed on each piece and you end up with a long narrow stick of wood that can be nice for inlays or whatever else. If you hog out all of that material with a router, you will have a lot more saw dust/chips all over. If you do use a router, you can assemble the frame first and then route away. You'll have to use a chisel to square out the channel corners since they will be the same radius as the bit.


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback guys! I guess lap joints is the way to go. I wonder if it would look neat to do the lap joint and then put a peg through the face on each corner with some of the scrap. Not sure I could make a nice round peg though. I've never done a lap joint before so this will be interesting to try.

Still trying to decide if I should leave it flat and squared or put a bead profile on it. I guess that's just personal preference that I need to figure out, but i'm leaning toward just leaving it basic. 

Steve the posters we have unfortunately are all different sizes, so we'll have a lot of frames to make. 

Thanks for the link Phaedrus, and the suggestion on using the table saw to cut out the space for the glass. I usually go though router table way, but it might be nice to save some wood and not saw dust.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

I have about 60' of 1/2" square (-ish) maple strips from six frames that I have built this year. I am always finding uses for them!


Also, you can always add bead and other details once assembled. I would focus on cutting your joints to fit tight, flat, and square first. Keep it simple and build from there if you like.


Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Update: So I got the miters cut and lap joints made...they're not pretty as on one corner I raised the blade a bit instead of lowering it a bit and had a nice little cavity in there. I glued in some little pieces to try and fill it as best I could. I might still throw some screws in the back for added strength. The picture is from before I cut the laps and glued up. Nice thing about old heart pine, it's got a lot of resin. Sanding up the corners filled in the little gaps nicely with some resin filled sawdust. On the down side, my sanding gave some bad sanding spots on the wood. 

Question: Anyway, my question now is...what do y'all use for the backing? From smaller frames I've been able to find real this board but for something this size I'm at a loss. I was thinking 1/4" plywood, but is too heavy? Is there a better solution?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Check with Michaels for foam board.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

+1 on using foam board. I checked at Michaels and the ones I saw listed there were 1/2" thick which may be a bit much. I've found it at Wally World in 20x30x3/16" which is about perfect thickness. Cuts easily with an Xacto or box cutter knife. Elmers also makes an acid free version if that's a concern. Just google "acid free foam board".:smile:


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Hey thanks guys! I looked on Michaels website and couldn't find anything but I think the 1/2" thickness would be a bit excessive. I found a lot of places online that carry the acid free stuff but you either have to order 25 boards or I found one place that sells custom sizes for one piece orders but shipping is $10. Looks like Walmart has the acid free boards in stock in my area. Thanks!


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

I have made a lot of picture frames. All except one has just been mitered and glued. None has fallen apart yet. Now, if it were dropped, all bets are off. OP, for your poster frame, I'd use some biscuits. 
Almost all of my stuff has been professionally put together. I bring the frame, and the art, and they do the rest. One thing I've learned is that unless you attach (glue) the art to the backer board, it will wrinkle. I was told this by the framer, and sure enough, the ones I did and didn't glue are wrinkled. So be aware. Also, I'd definitely go with acid free products. AND, do you know the framing places have anti-UV glass? Yes, it's more, (there are a couple grades), but worth it, IMHO. If it's worth going to the trouble framing, it's worth spending some money on excellent products. 
Oh, and check out a mitre trimmer. Kind of expensive, but makes the joint disappear. I wouldn't make frames without it! Grizzly carries them, I have one, and it's been great.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Wouldn't gluing poster to backerboard reduce value of poster in the future?


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

Yeah, you know, I have wondered about that, and haven't really gotten a good answer. Not sure if it's permanent or what. I will ask the question again.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Phaedrus said:


> For starters, a mitered joint will not be strong enough--no matter what kind of glue you use because it will have a relatively small surface area of glue and it will be end-grain to end-grain, so it will be a poor bond. Miter joints are common on frames, though, because they look balanced and appealing from the front. You need to reinforce the joint so that there can be edge-grain surface areas for the glue to work with. I like splines personally in the corners. Another way would be to have half-lap joints with a mitered top.
> 
> As for channeling the frame stock for the glass, poster, and backing materials to fit, this is a must. I like to just rip the channels in the frame sections before hand on the table saw. Two cuts are all that is needed on each piece and you end up with a long narrow stick of wood that can be nice for inlays or whatever else. If you hog out all of that material with a router, you will have a lot more saw dust/chips all over. If you do use a router, you can assemble the frame first and then route away. You'll have to use a chisel to square out the channel corners since they will be the same radius as the bit.


How come millions (yes, I do mean millions) of picture frames around the world seem to hold up perfectly well with nothing more than mitered corner joints?

George


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback about the moisture concern. I hadn't thought about that. I talked with the person at Michaels for some advice and she said they would not glue the artwork to the foam board but that they may use some double sided tape or something like that. She did say you want to keep the piece of the glass so it doesn't stick and also to keep moisture from getting trapped, so they use some spacers around the edge, that's assuming there is no matting. If there is matting that will keep it off. The tape on the backside will keep the piece off the glass as well. They also use an aluminum type tape around the inner edge wrapped on to the back side of the frame. She said this keeps the frame off the edge of the poster and also helps keep the moisture out. I think that was the most of what she said. A lot more than what I had thought goes into framing.


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

Hmmmm, the whole moisture thing sounds silly. I doubt you are ever going to really keep the moisture out. Assuming she means the humidity in the air, like in the summer. And never has my professional framing guy ever once mentioned anything about moisture. Seriously, go to a professional framing shop and ask them. And get a quote from both places. Was Michaels going to use anti-UV glass?


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh, I assumed the wrinkles you said might happen without gluing to the backer board would be caused by moisture. And I had read online that someone said trapping moisture was a concern as well. That's why I asked her about that. I just don't want the poster to wrinkle or end up sticking to the glass. But I think you're right, it's probably not as big an issue.

I actually bought the glass at lowes. The UV-blocking glass they had at Michaels was going to be $50. They also had a higher end type of glass which would have been more. They said they'd finish it up for about $25-30 but that the glass would be an added cost. So i'm going to try and do it all here.


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

From what I understand, the wrinkling issue stems more from an unsecured/gravity type issue more than anything else. If not using anti-UV glass, make sure it stays out of direct sunlight, or it'll get bleached. Is the poster worth anything?
As far as the even better glass, it's called Museum Glass. Not only anti-UV, but also anti reflective to the point that you cannot see it. I don't believe I have ever used it, although I did one painting for myself that I wish I had used it on. It is quite pricey, though. The big factor is size. For smaller items, the better glass becomes much less of a cost issue.


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Yeah, i guess the gravity issue makes sense. I just recalled i had put two of my jazz fest posters in very cheap frames i got at target years ago and I remember they did start getting wavy. Didn't take long before i through those frames out and wrapped the posters back up.

The print I'm framing now cost us about $50. Maybe the better glass is worth it since one thing we like about the print is all the vibrant colors. We usually keep our blinds closed though and the light that would come in if they were open would have to pass through some shades we have on the porch which block out 95% of UV so maybe it'll be alright. 

Thanks again for the info! This is the second frame I've made and first for anything of this size. We have several more prints we'd like to frame though so it definitely wont be the last we do.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> How come millions (yes, I do mean millions) of picture frames around the world seem to hold up perfectly well with nothing more than mitered corner joints?
> 
> George


I'd wager that this is only half true. Yes, there are millions of frames with miter joints, but a miter joint has zero (yes, I do mean zero) mechanical strength. Most frames of this type have fasteners to add mechanical strength to the joint. There are various v-nails and other specialized fasteners that can be pressed into the joint to hold it in place (see: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43293&p=52289). You could glue a frame that is made with just miter joints. Using regular wood glue, it would be end-grain to end-grain and would fail immediately. Epoxy or CA may last longer, but will eventually fail as well--especially with larger frames like what would be needed for a poster where the contact area of the glue is relatively small compared to the long length and width of the outside. 

As for fastening the poster to the backing material, I'd recommend staying away from spray adhesives. They can soak into the paper and cause wrinkles. It depends largely upon the stock that the poster is made from as to how much it will want to change with fluctuations in moisture. Dry mounting might be an option, but I have not used this myself.


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

It will NOT fail immediately! As I said, I have made a bunch with no mechanical fasteners, and to date, not one failure! (1st one was made around '03 or so.) If dropped or otherwise mishandled, of course, yes, there will be a failure. But, if you dropped it, it would be damaged either way, most likely.
Now, I agree if you're saying it has no structural strength. Absolutely. But does it need to? Apparently not.
I did a test one time out of curiosity. I made a corner, and ripped it apart. It actually had really good strength just trying to pull it apart, but it's killer is shock. Dropping it 3' onto concrete did it in. 
About 1/2 of these frames are also very hard, heavy, dense exotic woods. My miter trimmer tends to leave a very smooth shiny finish. No issue. And don't forget, as a general rule of thumb, the bigger the frame, the wider the sides, therefore increasing the surface area of the miter length.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

If your picture is "sagging" in the frame and getting "wrinkled", it's the wrong size frame. That said, if there is matting, it is typically secured/taped to the picture. I've never seen any professional framing place use glue of any kind.

You keep the moisture away and keep the poster off the glass because if you don't the poster will eventually stick to the glass... due to moisture. When this happens, you almost always ruin the poster and occasionally ruin the frame as well because it creates a ghost image on the glass. This is the only reason for all the spacers and such (and the original reason for matting, I believe.) It's not to keep moisture out of the frame (though there are some paintings they do this for... those are worth hundreds of thousands or millions, though.)

Frame looks good so far. Let us know how you decide to mat/finish the whole thing.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

I might weigh in on the glued miter corner: one of my first projects was a cookbook holder very much like the one here except with mitered corners, and is made of 1/4 red oak so there's a small glue area. Everything is butt jointed with Elmer's wood glue only, then polyurethaned. It's been dropped, knocked, and subjected to steam coming off the stove and so on and is ok. I didn't even have a corner/band clamp: the joints were assembled by allowing the glue to become tacky and assembling the parts with finger pressure. From what I've read since, it shouldn't have worked at all. 

It may fail eventually, but I think the weakness of the miter joint is probably of more historical importance than modern importance with modern glue.


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

Phaedrus said:


> I'd wager that this is only half true. Yes, there are millions of frames with miter joints, but a miter joint has zero (yes, I do mean zero) mechanical strength. Most frames of this type have fasteners to add mechanical strength to the joint. There are various v-nails and other specialized fasteners that can be pressed into the joint to hold it in place (see: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43293&p=52289). You could glue a frame that is made with just miter joints. Using regular wood glue, it would be end-grain to end-grain and would fail immediately. Epoxy or CA may last longer, but will eventually fail as well--especially with larger frames like what would be needed for a poster where the contact area of the glue is relatively small compared to the long length and width of the outside.
> 
> As for fastening the poster to the backing material, I'd recommend staying away from spray adhesives. They can soak into the paper and cause wrinkles. It depends largely upon the stock that the poster is made from as to how much it will want to change with fluctuations in moisture. Dry mounting might be an option, but I have not used this myself.


And that is just not true. I have many picture frames that I made, including a few shadow boxes that I made that are holding up perfectly fine using just mitred corners. The shadow boxes are big enough to hold sports jerseys, too. Been moved cross country and the only thing that's happened is I broke the glass on one of the shadow boxes when I was moving it out of the moving truck. That's it.

You can't just put a normal amount of glue on the joint and expect it to work, though. You have to put some on the joint, wait for it to soak it up, then put more on.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Woa friends! I am really not trying to start a big feud over the miter joints, but because this forum is a place of knowledge that outsiders come to for authoritative advice, I feel that it should reflect the truth. I'll preface this further with the fact that I am neither a professional nor an expert on woodworking. Instead, I'll cite 3 experts:

[quote="The Joint Book: The Complete Guide to Wood Joinery," Terrie Noll, 2006, Chartwell Books, New York, NY, pg 106.]

_"The glue surface of a length miter [edge bevel] is all long grain, *but all other miters are weak because the glue surface is end-grain. Consequently, miters need to be reinforced.*"_[/quote]


[quote="The Complete Manual of Woodworking: A Detailed Guide to Design, Techniques, and Tools for the Beginner and Expert," Albert Jackson, David Day, and Simon Jennings, 1989, Alfred A Knopf Publishing, New York, NY, pg 216.]

_"The butt joint is the simplest form of joint where one member meets another with no interlocking elements cut into the parts. *It is not a strong joint and is often reinforced in some way.*"_ He continues about mitered butt joints specifically, _"A miter halves the angle between the parts being joined. In most instances, joints are made at 90 degrees, so the common miter is set at 45 degrees. *End grain to end grain does not offer a good gluing surface*; but the miter's larger area, compared with the square butt joint, does compensate to some degree. *The miter is usually reinforced with nails or tongues*."_[/quote]


[quote="Woodworking Basics: Mastering the Essentials of Craftsmanship," Peter Korn, 2003, Taunton Publishing, Newton, CT, pg 7-8, 16-17]

_"A joint is considered to have mechanical strength to the extent that the pieces of wood physically interlock. It has glue strength to the extent that long-grain to long-grain permits a good glue bond. Sometimes, mechanical strength or glue strength alone forms a sufficient joint; sometimes both are required. The major factor that woodworkers must cope with when joining wood together is wood movement. The other thing to keep in mind is that *glue bonds well on long-grain but poorly on end-grain*."_
Also, _"The difference between long-grain and end-grain becomes significant when we glue wood together. The process of gluing two boards edge to edge can be looked at as assembling the straws in wood with man made adhesive instead of lignin. Because modern glues are actually stronger than lignin, long-grain joints are very reliable. *End-grain glue joints, on the other hand, are unreliable*. The porous cells suck glue away from the contact point, and *little bonding occurs*." _[/quote]


Can you find success in a joint that inherently has poor gluing potential and no mechanical strength? Sure, it is possible. Heck, it sounds like a few people have. Personally, I'd rather build things once and set myself up for success by choosing joints that are proven to be strong by the tradition of master woodworkers and the straight forward physics of wood and adhesives. Besides, why not classy up your corners with some more exciting, challenging, and structurally superior joinery?:thumbsup:


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback! I got the poster finished up. Overall I'm pleased with how it turned out but I am concerned about the print holding up. I got some acid-free double sided preservation tape and put it in the 4 corners of the acid-free poster board. I put a couple more strips along the length edge and two more strips running vertical in the middle. It still appears to have some waves in the poster in some places (depending on the angle you view it). I used 1/16 wood pieces around the edge of the glass to stand off the print but i'm not sure if that was thick enough. I can pull the poster up and repress it down, but should I use thicker spacer than that? 1/8" maybe?


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## TooPicky (Apr 12, 2009)

OOhhhh, that looks really nice! I Like the frame AND the art. They go well together. What's the wood?


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks! The art is by Terrence Osborne in New Orleans. We have one more of his (jazz bouquet) to frame and I think this one is called Hurricane Solution #2. 

I've been restoring my house which was built in the 1830s and had to take out some old wood here and there. I made this frame from some of it. It's heart pine original to the house framing and just finished with a few coats of Waterlox.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Pay close attention to how you hang the print in the frame.
Papers don't have a whole lot of dimensional stability with changing humidity.
Your print really needs to "float."

Fiber-based, archival B&W silver photographic prints are normally mounted top edge only.
(I used to sell a lot of 16x20 B&W decor prints all made with 4x5 cameras.)

I always prestretched my watercolor paper. Usually 8 x 1/4 sheets in a session. The finished painting was cut off the board and likewise, top edge mounted. 1/4 sheets d'Arches 140lb CP rough expands nearly 5% and a buckled painting looks really stupid.


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## chsdiyer (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback Robson! The lady at Michaels said I should tape the 4 corners and maybe a piece in the middle to hold the picture off the glass, but you're saying just to run a piece of tape across the top? How will that keep the poster off the glass to prevent it from sticking since I don't have matting? Should I have more than 1/16" spacing between the poster and glass?


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I am a little to this party but wanted to share the frame I just made. The wood is 100 yr old barn wood. I had to glue up the cracks and splits from the back side before attempting to cut it. I used two pocket screws at each miter...and a few 18 ga trim nails shot into the frame. It turned out really nice with tight miters.

I printed the screen grab my granddaughter had posted and put it in the frame. It was a hit at the baby shower. Our first great grandchild - due in November.


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