# Turning tools I made



## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

Hi Everyone
Want to thank everyone who replied to my birdhouses post. 

Today I want to post a couple pictures of some turning tools I recently made. The pictures aren't the best because after taking these pictures my camera went south. These tools are not going to make me throw away my bought tools but every one of them works fine for it's intended purpose. A guy with no money could still do some turning and not skip a beat. Why make your own I was asked? Well one example, I like the little termite hollowing tool I bought and I have 3 ring cutters. So I made the rest of the tools and now one I made from heavier round stock that is 4" longer lets me hollow out a vase easily up to 14" deep instead of 11" with no vibration.Made several scrapers from old files and was amazed at how good they cut. Yes I said cut, not scrape. Use a Veritas burnisher on a scraper after sharpening and make a good small burr and it is now a cutting tool and not a scraper. Wish I could talk some of you turners into trying to make some tools yourself. Very rewarding and cheap. The flutes I made on the gouges aren't pretty but they work. Doug Thompson told me if you make a gouge it will work fine with a 1" flute and this guy should know he makes the finest tools available to turners. I did that and it does. I am seriously thinking of buying a small milling machine for gouges. Don't want to sell anything. Help me out here guys. Mitch


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## jdixon (Nov 21, 2007)

Gosh dang it Mitch! You've always got a cool new thing going with every post! Man I'm doing good just getting started on sharpening my lathe tools. Not sure I'm ready to start making my own. Heck I need to figure out how to use what I have before I figure out what else I need. Guess that's part of the fun of it! 

How long have you been making your own tools? Is it just kind of trial and error or do you get it right pretty much right off? I think it's great you are making your own tools. If you get a milling machine one of these days I may turning with a Cholewinski! How cool would that be! :thumbsup:

John


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

jdixon
Thanks for the reply, Jim I believe it is? I got a good laugh from your reply, thanks for that. You know, what your doing right now is the most important thing you can do if you are going to be a good turner. Learn to sharpen and learn it right. You know that the more practice the better you get at sharpening, right? Why use your store bought tools and run them down to nothing? Make a tool and practice sharpening on it to your hearts content. Start out with an easy to make tool like a scraper. Turn it into a cutting tool and marvel at the fine finish you can get on your turning with the tool you made. I been sharpening woodworking tools since the late 1960"s. Just started making turning tools. I'm still new to turning. Keep in touch. Mitch:thumbsup:


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## Handyman (Jan 2, 2008)

Mitch I believe necessity is the mother of Invention. While I lay no claim to be a turner, I made two of these to go on my ceiling fans chains. I turned them on a drill press using a 3/4 flat chisel. The kind you would use to cut a door for a hinge. Sorry the picture is so poor.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Mitch,
Looks good. Doug Thompson is in our woodturning club. I bought a couple of his tools and made some fancy handles for them. They work very well. My buddy has a small tabletop milling machine and also a tabletop metal lathe for me. I just have to go pick them up and build a rolling stand for each. Looks like I know what some of my first projects will be.
Mike Hawkins:smile:


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## jdixon (Nov 21, 2007)

Mitch, Looking at your first picture a little closer, are a couple of those old files? I have a tool box full of old files that might be a good place to start. 

John


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

jdixon
Exactly where I started John only you need to know there is a possibility that files being so hard are susceptible to cracking and could be dangerous. I made several with no incident. When making or using one of these tools from files make sure you have your facemask on. Good Luck, sharpen the way you sharpen a scraper, then consider if you want to buy a Veritas burnisher to change the cutting action from scrapeing to cutting. I make mine into cutters. Mitch


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

firehawkmph
Lucky guy you are my friend, let me give you the address to send them machines. lol, just kidding. Do you know how to run a milling machine? Does your friend? I used to be a plant manager of a couple mills before retiring and used to talk a lot with my maintenance chief while he was milling a broken part, but never had any formal training on running one. Maybe ask your buddy if it would be simple enough to mill a flute in a hald inch rod and what tool would you need to buy to do this.If I find out this info I will definitely buy a milling machine from Grizzly.Would you mind asking him ? I just want to do this for my enjoyment not to make money. Thanks again buddy and I see your from Cleveland, we're nearly neighbors, I'm from Pittsburgh. Mitch


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

Handyman
You say your no turner but I think your being modest. If you turned that switch pull with a chisel on a drill press your good a turner as a few I met. That is a nice nob. You did good and should get a mini press to try turning. Anyway thanks for the reply and the fine looking turning. Mitch:thumbsup:


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## coffeetime (Dec 28, 2006)

Quote :Maybe ask your buddy if it would be simple enough to mill a flute in a hald inch rod and what tool would you need to buy to do this.

This would be a "ball end mill". The end cuts round instead of flat like a standard end mill. 

Mike


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Good job Mitch. I love making tools. If I have time I'm going to make another one this weekend using the Hunter cutter on the end. 
If you use files take them and put them in the oven for about an hour at 350 degrees. This removes a lot of the brittleness although they can still snap on the file teeth lines. They are a lot safer than when they are fully hard. This temperature will still let them take a good edge. When I make tools I harden them and them I temper them between 350 and 450 degrees depending on how hard I want the edge.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
John, Like you I love making tools, with my limited experience of making them. I bought a cutter for a Hunter tool about a year ago when I bought the Elbo hollowing system and was impressed with it, like I know you were. One problem I encountered with this cutter though John. The little screw that holds the cutter to the body keeps loosening to the point the cutter falls off. I don't want to glue it on for obvious reasons. Like you, I am going to make a new body of 3/8" rod I get at the Depot, just never got to it yet. Thanks for the tip on heating files to 350 degrees. I understand the process that the file goes through doing it this way but never thought of it till you mentioned doing it. Reheating does something to the carbon in the steeland makes it suitable to make tools. Another method I know of but never used was heat the file till it is no longer attracted to a magnet, at this point it is air cooled and at its peak time to be made into a tool. I am now at the point in tool making that I am certain I am going to buy a milling machine from Grizzly. They have several cheaper mills. I need to know what tooling to get to cut flutes and will decide which to buy. I want to make gouges that look like gouges, not homemade although the ones I made cut good. Anyways, thanks John and let us know when you make the Hunter. Mitch


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

coffeetime
Thank you for that info to use a ball end mill on a milling machine to make flutes.I have been looking for that answer. Can I ask you a question if you don't mind? Have you run or are you familiar with a milling machine? Also Have you looked at the machines Grizzly is selling Up th 2500 dollar limit I am imposing on myself? Would these machines do the job of making flutes in HSS, using the ball end mill? Could you please let me know on this thread or e-mail me at ?[email protected] Thank you Mitch


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Mitch,
I had a couple of years of machine shop way back in high school. The machines that my buddy has were his uncles. I believe he has some shop experience though. There is a bit of tooling with the lathe and mill already. Also, my brother in law is a machinest, so I am sure I could get him over to help me get started again. The rest will come back in time.
Mike Hawkins:smile:


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

firehawkmph
Thanks Mike, I wish you all the best with your new toys. I decided, definitely that I am going to buy a mill from Grizzly only don't know which to buy. They have several and I don't want to spend over 2500 dollars. Not much for a mill but all I want to do is mill flutes for gouges. wish I had a brother in law to consult. good Luck and keep in touch if you make any tools. Mitch:thumbsup:


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch I use cut off wheels on a 3" angle grinder to cut and shape files. I prefer to anneal them first when I can. I do this by making a good charcoal fire on my grill and just toss the files in. They get hot enough to anneal them and they will cool slowly overnight. Then you can cut them with a hacksaw if necessary. 
Now I prefer to just go ahead and buy good metal. It's not that expensive and I can get exact instructions on hardening and tempering. You also don't have any inherent weaknesses like you do with file steel.
You can grind out a flute using abrasive wheels or even cuttoff wheels. You might have to make a jig to control the grinder to get a really clean cut. Of course if you have access to a mill you can use a ball end mill. they also have curved cutters for horizontal mills that work great. my best friend made one using a surface grinder. He ground the stone to the shape needed and then just kept adjusting the depth until he got what he wanted.
Did you have the correct screw for the hunter tool. It takes a special tapered screw that matches the taper of the cutter. I have never had one let go yet. In fact they are pretty hard to get out when you decide to adjust the cutter. Mike Hunter sells the screws to go with the cutters.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
Thanks John
I used my angle grinder freehand on the first gouge I attempted and got acceptable results, put a side grind on it and it cut pretty good. I cut a dovetail in a sort of wood baseplate and mounted my angle grinder in a type of half horse collar and slid the grinder back and forth in the dovetail jig and was surprised how well it worked. Now I am at this point in my tool making , I want to make one that is very good and I am going to do it. Far as the files I made into scraper etc I will stick with what I have because they are very satisfactory and I have all Sorby scrapers. I am now going to concentrate on making gouges. Right after I tell my wife tonight after dinner, that I am buying a milling machine for her birthday.. Thanks for the info John. 
BTW, I took the Hunter cutter out of the plastic box it came in and used that screw, so if it was the right screw or not, I used what they sent me. Mitch


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch I had conversations with a gentleman who used the table saw and abrasive blade to make a gouge. He made a carriage out of wood to hold the steel. Then he fed the steel into the blade a tiny bit at a time using the fence and height adjustment to make the passes. 
that would probably work but I would clean out all possibly saw dust to prevent a fire. It's not much different than using surface grinder when used like this except your upside down of course. It's sort of like cutting a cove with the table saw a bite at a time until the shape is close. Then you take sandpaper on a dowel of the right diameter to clean up the grind marks.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

I forgot to tell you. You really only need to grind the first few inches. With todays sharpening jigs there isn't any reason to have a flute 6" long. I've though about making a bunch of different tips with a common tenon that would fit into a hole in a longer tool. This way I could experiment with tip designs and not have a lot invested.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
Thanks again about the flute length. I knew that and a couple tools I made I did that but you can't see it because my camera was taking lousy pictures before it went AWOL. Doug Thompson suggested that to me about a month ago on another forum. You can add more fluting as you go along and the tool is stronger with a shorter flute. I just made contact with a guy, John , who has two milling machines and has his own shop. He e-mailed me and told me the Grizzly machine he thinks will do what I want to do.I can handle the price but what disappointed me is the list of things he said I also have to buy before ever setting up the mill. He gave me estimated prices of these tools and it sounded almost as much as the price of the machine. I still would buy it but what worries me is setting up all this stuff myself and never having set up the mill. I ran high speed machinery over 32 years before going into management and know if you can't set it up you don't run the machine. Don't want to spend this much money and it sits in the shop. Decision time for me.He talks like he wants to help me much as possible. Thanks for the tips and for getting back to me. Your the best John Lucas. Mitch:yes:


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch I waited about 10 to 15 years to get into machining for that reason. I didn't buy the Smithy (lathe/mill combo machine) until I knew I had as much money as the cost of the machine to buy tooling. I paid $1000 for the machine and have already spend more than that on tooling and could still use lots of cutters, counter sinks, slitting saws etc. I knew it was like buying a sink hole for money when I got into it but I think it will be worth it in the long run. 
You also have to couple in the learning curve. I found out pretty quick that there is a huge difference between watching someone do it and actually doing a cut that is that clean and precise. You have to learn cutting speeds, the shape of tools, feed rates and a lot of other things I don't even know to ask yet if you want parts that fit together with thousanths of an inch tolerance.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
Thanks John and I hear you. Money isn't the problem John. I can buy the tool but I don't want to end up with a tool and not know exactly what tooling I do need for cutting flutes on 3/8" and 1/2" rod steel.I never ran one but am confident I can teach myself to run this machine if I get the exact tooling I need for the fluting operation only. Later I can pick up on other operations myself. I used to manage a mill and was friends with the chief maintenance man and used to watch him making machine parts etc. I enjoyed watching because he did make it look so easy. I think I told you I am in touch with a guy who is knowledgeable and seems to want to help me out. I need to know just what Grizzly model I need to buy to cut flutes nothing more. Then what tooling for that machine to buy, then how to set up, but I think I can figure it out if I get the right tools. would you andwer me this question John. That machine you got, will it cut flutes if you wanted to. Is it enough machine? The machines I am looking at start at 3/4 horsepower and go up a 1/4 for each succeeding model. I guess my future in operating a mill is in this guys hands. If he gives me a favorable reply as to what machine will do this work for me I am going for it Glad I met this man but most of all I thank heaven I know you John, your good at telling it like it is, so you build up a guys confidence. Hope I don't ever get to the point that I wear out my welcome by writing you so much. Mitch


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch This is a 5/8" piece of drill rod. I used a 3/8" round end mill to cut it. My machine still has some slop I have to work on so I had to make many shallow passes but it didn't take too long. It's 4" overall with a 3/8" tenon. I will take a 5/8" or 3/4" piece of bar and drill a 3/8" hole for the tenon. I milled a slight flat on the top so my Wolverine sharpening jig would work. 
I don't know if you can buy mills with different shapes if you wanted to have a V shaped flute. I'll have to look into that. I have a vise that can tilt so I could possibly tilt it 5 degrees one way or the other to make a V shaped flute. 
I will try to harden it tomorrow. I don't know if I can do it with a Mapp gas torch. I don't feel like firing up the forge. We'll see.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

It would help if I posted the photo.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
John that looks like a great first tool. When first reading your message I was confused about your talking of milling a tenon. I see what your doing and it is looking very good from the picture. Not sure I remember the type of 5/8 steel you bought but it isn't hard enough yet till you harden it right? Did you get that at the Depot? A map gas torch is supposed to be the way to go for hardening, something I haven't got myself. When you get it to the correct temp are you going to oil or water quench? Reason I ask is will you later need to anneal the tool or what will you be doing if anything? If you anneal you should sharpen before this because when you need to aneal you will have to regrind a slight bit off again. Am I thinking right here? I never gave this method a bunch of thought because I think I am going to buy HSS to make tools for myself and this stuff can't be heated enough with a at home heating. I want to now exactly how you do it though John, if you don't mind My way ,at this point is just speculation to me untill I get a mill. I am really thrilled at how good your tool tip, or what will you call them,looks. Great job. I got a message from another guy who told me he just got a mini mill 3 days ago and he knows less about running one than me but he wants to learn. Told him to keep in touch and maybe we will help each other. I am waiting for the other man who told me he has a shop to write me. I want to know which Grizzly mill I should buy that will make flutes for me and nothing else interests me now. Size and weight of this mill is important because my shop is so crowded I can't turn around any more but can't get myself to get rid of some woodworking tools, breaks my heart.. Thanks for showing me your progress John. If I can do anything to help you let me know.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch This is Water Hardening Drill rod that I buy from Enco. I don't have the heat treating oven to do HSS. The reason I say MAPP gas won't work is that It takes a very long time to heat a tool that thick. I've done 1/2" tools but 5/8" might be taxing it. An Oxyacetylene torch would have the volume of heat needed to do this, or of course my forge. It's just hard to get excited about hauling everything outside and firing it up in cold weather for just one piece.
You can do this work with any size mill if you have the patience. I made some tools using one of the 7x10 mini metal lathes. I mounted the steel on an angle bracket and put the mill in the headstock. I had to make very small cuts. 
I just checked and my Mill has a 3/4 hp motor. I think that would be the minimum. It seems to have enough power for milling. It's a little weak for turning larger diameter work. It works I just have to take smaller cuts. The larger tool you can buy the faster you can cut and the more accurate it is. It does get frustrating taking .015" cuts to sneak up on .375" deep. My friend with a machine shop does that cut in one pass with much less noise and chatter than when I make a .015" cut and cut looks cleaner and more accurate. Of course his machine is 10 grand.
I have a space problem also which is why I bought the Smithy. Having a lathe and mill as one takes up less space. The downside is when you have to set up 2 or 3 operations to finish the piece. I'm pretty slow at using the dial indicator to true up things so it takes a while to go from mill to lathe and back to mill. On the tool I just made I only did 2 operations so I aligned everything to do the mill work and then ground the tip to shape, cut the bar to length and chucked it on the lathe and turned the tenon. 
If I do it again I'll use a 4 jaw chuck to offset the bar and drill out most of the waste. That will make the milling go faster. It will require mounting the 4 jaw chuck, drilling, take the chuck off, mount the mill vise and mill, then take that vise off and mount the cutter and 3 jaw chuck and turn the tenon. More work but it's faster than taking 25 passes to get to the proper depth. Which reminds me. If you can afford power feed go for it. To use the mill sideways I have to hand crank the cross feed. That gets really old when your doing 25 passes. Power feed also leaves a much cleaner surface. I have power feed parallel to the bed but I'm limited in how far it will go when using the mill. Cross ways has more travel so I tend to use that but then that means hand cranking.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
I have seen that steel you buy in the Enco book John. Speaking of HSS, I remember a post where Doug Thompson said he liked your idea of making these short tools to be inserted into a handle. I think he said he was going to send you some steel for you to make the tool then you send it ,either to him or someone else to have it professionally heated. I thought about this a couple times but figured it wasn't my business to ask you about it. Could I ask, what your thoughts were on this offer? One statement you made in this las trply was very simple statement but was one that I was trying to get from anyone. You stated that I could use any mill to do this work but the bigger the better. Now I have a better idea of what I should get with that statement. If you needed to make 25 passes to get to the depth, you are only taking about a 1/64" off at a pass? So a three quarter horse is pretty much out of the question. Speaking of depth of cut, what were you doing ,going a little deeper than center of the 5/8" rod for the entire length of the flute? There are a few things you stated in last reply that I am confused about the meaninf of, setting up the lathe and being slow doing. I know what you do with the indicator but confused about the meaning here. Right now it matters not though. I need to reread this all over to see your meaning of some things. I am kind of disappointed I haven't heard back from this guy who said he was a machinist. In Grizzly's catalog there is a mill with two horsepower that I will be looking at now that I don't think I want the 3/4 or 1 horse mill. If you were to chance a guess John would the 2 hp mill be much better in times of cutting time and or cutting depth? It would be just a guess I know, but your guess would be a more educated guess than mine. When your talking of a 4 jaw chuck, are you talking of a wood lathe chuck? Well thanks again John and keep in touch. Mitch


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## Barry Ward (Mar 22, 2008)

Nice bunch of tools you have there.I love making my own tools when possable,and when I see a tool that I want and they want 1 0r 200.00 bucks and up for it,thats when I start looking for those possable times.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch Since I like Doug's tools so much I don't know If I will take him up on the offer. I don't think I can make anything any better. However if I come up with a new design I might do just that. It would be nice to have a tool that holds an edge longer.
I don't think the horsepower is the problem with my mill. I think it's all the little things coupled together. The reason I say that is because it's chatter that has caused the problem of not being able to take big cuts. I haven't even come close to stalling the motor. 
I mentioned the dial indicator gauge because when I put my vise on the table it doesn't automatically align. To make the cut travel down the center of the piece I have to "indicate" it in to make sure the metal is exactly aligned with the cutter and travels parallel to the cross feed. It's not unusual to take longer to indicate something in than it is to actually turn or mill the piece. I guess as I get better at it I will get faster.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

JohnLucas
John I don't think it is a matter of your turning out anything better than Doug does, I think he believes you have something that will sell and is willing to invest some steel to see what you can come up with. Although your idea probably isn't brand new it might be very possible it will sell. Maybe no one else is really trying to push this kind of tool. Take him up on the offer John. What do you have to lose? Make them and send them back to be hardened and try them out yourself. You would be a perfect turner to write a review on what you think they can do. Anyways to get a tool to hold a better edge I thought all the new thinking today says you will have to get into cryogenic steels, which Dougs are, I believe, after thinking about it. I know that horsepower is a poor indicator as to the quality of a particular machine but is something most people judge a machine by. Talking about chatter John, now you know I know little about milling machines, I would say horsepower has nothing to do with chatter. I think chatter is more of a problem of too much speed and not fast enough feed. Very easy to find out though. What you say about indicating when setting up is something I was reffering to when I told you I ran two color metal decorating machine. If you can't set it up accurately and quickly, you can't run it. Thank You for this reply. Mitch


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch I went to a really interesting lecture (which doug attended also) at the AAW symposium. It was on edge holding capabilities of metal when used on a wood lathe. It was interesting but the most interesting point was Cryogenics. Basically what he said was that Cryongenics converts Austenite to Martensite. How much Martensite is in the steel is how hard the steel can get. If the HSS is heat treated 3 times, and done properly, all of the Austenite will be converted to Martensite and cryogenic treating won't do any more. If on the other hand the heat treating was less than perfect then the cryogenic treating does help. Needless to say he went into a lot more detail with micrograph photos and lots of charts. It was interesting. What it all boiled down to was the state of the art tools like Thompson tools and the various Cryogenic tools don't necessarily hold an edge 4 to 10 times longer like some claim. However they do hold an edge longer, he just couldn't do enough testing to prove how long and which tools are better.


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

John Lucas
John, That is so very interesting, I wish I could of been there to hear this lecture. Not that I pretend to understand it all that you say but the fact is I would like to know exactly what he was meaning.Austenite and Martensite are unfamiliar words to me but I will be looking up their meanings shortly.If a tool edge is heated correctly it says this determines how hard an edge can be, not by adding more martensite. What would confuse me here is wouldn't too much martensite and or more heating make the steel too brittle and subject to breaking? I believe this is what is meant when they say cryogenic steel is all that can be done for steel, nothing else can be done to it. Extremely interesting John but eventually they will find ways to do something to steel to make it hold an edge better or else come up with a different steel that will. Meanwhile back in John Lucas's shop there is still a market for the tools that you can turn out using the tool steel you use, every turner doesn't have to have tools made with cryogenic steels. If these tools are made turners will try them out. Thanks for sending me this John, I liked reading it a bunch and now I am going to look at it again till I understand. As always, Mitch:thumbsup:


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Mitch. In a nutshell austenite and martensite are roughly the way the carbon is aligned in the metal. The more austenite that is turned to martensite the harder the metal. In order to make a turning tool you have to back this off a little by tempering. I'm not sure what tempering does to the martensite. I'll have to read up on that. I had success heating the tool with the Mapp gas torch. I guess it's because I removed about half the metal. I am now tempering it in the oven at 375 degrees. According to my chart that should give me a hardness around 62 which is on the harder side for turning tools.


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## jdixon (Nov 21, 2007)

Not sure I'll be making a tool anytime even in the distant future but Mitch and John it has been fun, enlightening and educational to follow this thread. Always good to learn. Thanks for sharing.

John


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## Mitch Cholewinski (Mar 11, 2007)

jdixon
Your very welcome John D,very pleased that you followed this thread this far if you did but I can understand why, John L has a way about him that makes things so interesting.I remember not too long ago when I said what your saying JD, but now all I think about is making tools, no longer the ones I know I can make, I am only interested in making those I don't know if I can make. I love being challenged in any way. Come back and comment any time you see the tool making threads and I think they will be more frequent in the future if we can keep the turners interested in this type thread. 
Remember, it all started here Mitch


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