# frame strength question



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

I want to make a picture frame for a pic that my wife and I had drawn of us in NYC. I picked up pine corner molding and pine 1x3 because she has a special color paint. My question is will dowel joints be strong enough? the wood is light and the pic is just drawing paper on a mat so it light two. so the only heavy part would be the glass that I will get cut once the frame is complete. I have attached a pic I drew up in powerpoint, sorry havent got sketch up figured out yet. Please let me know.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*probably*

Are the 4 blue concentric circles like rosettes, and separate pieces? That's a lot of dowels to get just right, you'd better have a dowel jig. I got one at H-F pretty cheap. Oh, that's all they sell there...... cheap stuff. :yes:
http://www.harborfreight.com/self-centering-doweling-jig-41345.html


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Are the 4 blue concentric circles like rosettes, and separate pieces? That's a lot of dowels to get just right, you'd better have a dowel jig. I got one at H-F pretty cheap. Oh, that's all they sell there...... cheap stuff. :yes:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/self-centering-doweling-jig-41345.html


I was going to make dowel jig to use. Yes they are rosettes. Squares with designs in the center


----------



## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I would expect that just a glue joint would be very sufficient. That is, unless those corner blocks are something other then wood. Personally I think that the dowels would be overkill.

George


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Since you are adding glass, I would just half lap the rosettes and the straight pieces, and glue/clamp. Then rabbet the back edge all around with a rabbeting bit. Square the corners with a chisel.









 







.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi - I agree with half laps, I'm certain glue alone isn't enough, some may suggest pocket screws.
I would be a little concerned about pitch from the pine. A good primer is a must. To be absolutely sure, use a shellac base primer such as BIN (available Wally World, HD, others), you can get it in rattle can.:smile:


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

What is the best way to create the lap joint if I do not have a band saw?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sgtrunningfool said:


> What is the best way to create the lap joint if I do not have a band saw?



You could do it on the table saw or a radial arm saw. If you have neither, you could do it with just a chisel, or a hand saw and a chisel. Just a note on procedure, on the straight pieces, you would need to strike a 45 notch where the two meet in the inside corners.









 







.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> You could do it on the table saw or a radial arm saw. If you have neither, you could do it with just a chisel, or a hand saw and a chisel. Just a note on procedure, on the straight pieces, you would need to strike a 45 notch where the two meet in the inside corners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


45 degree notch? A little confused


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sgtrunningfool said:


> 45 degree notch? A little confused


On the bottom half of the straight pieces that lead into the rosette, there needs to be a 45 degree cut to both so they will meet at the inside corners. If those corners were left square (@ 90 degrees) they would hit.









 







.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> On the bottom half of the straight pieces that lead into the rosette, there needs to be a 45 degree cut to both so they will meet at the inside corners. If those corners were left square (@ 90 degrees) they would hit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sgtrunningfool said:


> Thank you


Sorry about the following image, but I couldn't get the image to save, so I had to web cam it.
.
















 







.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> Sorry about the following image, but I couldn't get the image to save, so I had to web cam it.
> .
> 
> 
> ...


Thank u the pic helps a lot


----------



## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

I would agree on the half lap :thumbsup:. It would be more forgiving than dowels and stronger as well. Another approach would be to simply use an epoxy glue. This would probably be less strong than well constructed half-lap joints, but it would be the "easy" way out.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you could also...*

You could half lap the corner joints making them flush. Then you could attach the rosettes and leave them proud of that surface as they might be on a trim molding..OR you could cut them down to 1/2" their thickness for a look that's in between, not so high above the frame. This would be the strongest method in my opinion. I've made garden gates using half laps that have lasted years. :thumbsup:


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

If the frame is going to be constructed from 3/4 thick X 3inch wide boards what size chisel should I use? I have a 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4? I have not done a lot of chisel work.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sgtrunningfool said:


> If the frame is going to be constructed from 3/4 thick X 3inch wide boards what size chisel should I use? I have a 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4? I have not done a lot of chisel work.


What part will you be chiseling?








 







.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

What part will you be chiseling?




.[/QUOTE]

The joint area


----------



## MissionIsMyMission (Apr 3, 2012)

I'd recommend using a Kreg Jig Jr. $40 bucks @ Walmart. Quick Simple and strong as heck for making all kinds of frames.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Kreg-R3-Kreg-Jig-Jr.-Pocket-Hole-Jig-System/14690163


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> What part will you be chiseling?





sgtrunningfool said:


> The joint area



If you don't have table saw. radial arm saw, or a handheld circular saw, and want to make the half laps entirely with a chisel, if the largest one you have is ¾", that's the one I would use.









 







.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*exactly what tools DO you have?*

We may have been recommending procedures that are not possible for you to do without the proper tools. 
I would not want to half lap 4 corners, that's 8 half laps with a chisel personally. I'd use a bandsaw, or dado head in a radial or table saw. Yes, it can be done by kerfing the material down to a common thickness, then chiseling away 1/2 the board thickness, it's a lot of work.

A Kreg jig used with 2 small screws into each edge of the rosette, would get you there quickly.

Dowels would be labor intensive and would require a jig for accuracy.

Half laps are best done with power tools to save time.

A splined joint with a slot cutter on a router table would work also. It would be strong and self aligning.

A miter joint in the frame corners would work then apply the rosette on top. The total thickness would be more than you need possibly , I donno? But the rosette would help secure the joint if glued on the miter intersection.

NEXT question, How will you rabbet the frame for the glass?
A separate small molding will work if you have no table saw or router table to make a rabbet. A rabbeting hand plane will work, but that's an exotic tool for most home shop owners, who are not into the hand tool aspect.

You may need to enlist some support for this project from a buddy with a more complete shop, You think? :blink:


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

I dont mind the labor for the purposes of learning. If there is value in me learning to do these by hand I do not mind. I have a table saw but I not have a dado stack for it. I have a compound miter saw, jig saw, and hand saw. 

I also have router and when I need a router table I have a panel that I clamp down to table saw edge so I can rout, so cutting the rabbet should not be to much of an issue. 

I plan on buying a bandsaw in the next couple of months but I do not want to wait to do this project.

Now that I have given you guys an idea of what tools I have at my disposal, which way would you suggest doing this?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sgtrunningfool said:


> I dont mind the labor for the purposes of learning. If there is value in me learning to do these by hand I do not mind. I have a table saw but I not have a dado stack for it. I have a compound miter saw, jig saw, and hand saw.
> 
> I also have router and when I need a router table I have a panel that I clamp down to table saw edge so I can rout, so cutting the rabbet should not be to much of an issue.
> 
> ...


This is the first time you mentioned that you had a table saw. The suggestions I made I preempted by saying if you don't have a table saw...

You can do the half laps with the table saw and a single blade. You don't need a stack dado. You can use the miter gauge. You may want to screw onto the vertical portion an extended strip of wood, to give your pieces more support. If you have made a sled for it...even better.

Use the router to make the rabbet.








 







.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> This is the first time you mentioned that you had a table saw. The suggestions I made I preempted by saying if you don't have a table saw...
> 
> You can do the half laps with the table saw and a single blade. You don't need a stack dado. You can use the miter gauge. You may want to screw onto the vertical portion an extended strip of wood, to give your pieces more support. If you have made a sled for it...even better.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the help.


----------



## MissionIsMyMission (Apr 3, 2012)

I'd still use the Kreg Tool. Easy, Fast and Strong as heck. Use the router to rabbet the edge for the glass.


----------



## sgtrunningfool (Jan 14, 2012)

Well I have the frame put together. I used lap joints using my table saw. I cut the rosettes down using my hand saw and miter box. I will post a picture after I get it painted.


----------

