# Box Elder



## djg

I cut some more firewood today, this time box elder. Some trees were cut down last spring without the landowner's permission and I'm cleaning up the area for him. So I normally wouldn't be cutting box elder for firewood. When I cut into the log, I was suprised to see only the very center had the red streaks. The question is, does the streaking increase with drying, or is this all there will be. I was hoping for more color in my bowl blanks.


----------



## del schisler

djg said:


> I cut some more firewood today, this time box elder. Some trees were cut down last spring without the landowner's permission and I'm cleaning up the area for him. So I normally wouldn't be cutting box elder for firewood. When I cut into the log, I was suprised to see only the very center had the red streaks. The question is, does the streaking increase with drying, or is this all there will be. I was hoping for more color in my bowl blanks.


the box elder i cut long yrs ago when you are chain sawing the saw dust is red This wood will stay red may fade a little but as i remember it is nice to make stuff out of Most of the trees don't get big and have hollow center's and is soft wood Not very good for fire wood it burn's but not much heat from it ?


----------



## woodnthings

*A box made with flame box elder*



The streaks pretty much stay as they were when first cut. Some portions have more color than others as in the tray. Great wood, dense, close grained and great color.


----------



## djg

Thanks for the info. That's kinda what I though. It was a small tree, maybe 14 - 16" across, so the yield wouldn't have been great if I had taken somewhere to be sawn. But maybe I can resaw some thin pieces, like used in the box shown, out of some of the firewood. As for burning it, the tree should have been left standing in the first place, but so it doesn't go to waste, I'll use it for campfires this spring on fishing trips.


----------



## TexasTimbers

djg,

The red is a result of borer infestation. The tree's response to this attack results in the red color. No borers - no color. 




.


----------



## djg

Shoot! I was wanting a lot more color. I'd like to get my hands on some of those critters. Any idea where I can buy them?:laughing:


----------



## woodnthings

*The box was made from "firewood"*



djg said:


> Thanks for the info. That's kinda what I thought. It was a small tree, maybe 14 - 16" across, so the yield wouldn't have been great if I had taken somewhere to be sawn. But maybe I can resaw some thin pieces, like used in the box shown, out of some of the firewood. As for burning it, the tree should have been left standing in the first place, but so it doesn't go to waste, I'll use it for campfires this spring on fishing trips.


If you can see the red in the end grain by all means set aside some logs
as they will probably be quite wet. If you can split them and resaw them to air dry, that's what I did. The top on the box, curved, was a result of the boards cupping after drying, so I just went with the cup and made the top curved. It's a great wood, easy to saw and quiite strong.  bill


----------



## clarionflyer

Somebody posted some box elder turnings, here, a few months ago (can't seem to find it). But they were stunning.
If I remember correctly, the poster said the box elder was difficult to turn.


----------



## phinds

TexasTimbers said:


> djg,
> 
> The red is a result of borer infestation. The tree's response to this attack results in the red color. No borers - no color.
> 
> 
> 
> .


That had always been my belief as well but I was corrected on that fairly recently. Actually, I THINK the correction was on this forum, but perhaps it was elsewhere. 

At any rate, what I was told is that the red occurs primarily as a result of stress in the tree, and that it is particularly prone to occur in trees that are in high wind areas or that have wire strung around them or things like that. The red can occur along with a total absence of the borers, although they also can be a source of irritation to the tree. When they are, apparently the red that occurs is not like in the case of the ambrosia beetles where the color comes from "bug poop" but rather is the same red produced as a result of other types of stress to the tree.

I'm just passing on what I was told, and have not yet done any further exporation of the subject. My backlog of wood related research items is a bit intimidating at the moment so if you care to look into this and let us know if I was correctly informed, I'd appreciate it.

Paul


----------



## TexasTimbers

Not trying to take your post out of context, but it seems like you were typing backward so I'll respond to it backward. 



phinds said:


> . . . I'm just passing on what I was told, and have not yet done any further exporation of the subject . . . so if you care to look into this and let us know if I was correctly informed, I'd appreciate it.


All I have is my opinion based on my limited research, and my extensive experience. My research is only limited because not much research has been done on this subject matter. There are few individuals on the planet who have logged, milled, dried, and processed as much box elder as I have. In fact I'd like to meet the man who has inhaled more of it than I. The information you were told is most likely re-hashed 3rd or 4th generation hearsay, based on the research of Andrea C. Morse and Robert A. Blanchette at the U of Minnesota. They issued a white paper once their research was complete entitled _"Etiology of Red Stain in Boxelder"_. I am pretty sure you and I have had this discussion before. I disagree with some of their conclusions, but really they don't claim to have "conclusions". Even in their "Conclusion" paragraph they admit it is mostly conjecture. They are book-readers mostly and never get their hands dirty with experience. I do have respect for them though because at least for their study they did go into the field to try and mimic the causation firsthand. 



phinds said:


> . . . what I was told is that the red occurs primarily as a result of stress in the tree, and that it is particularly prone to occur in trees that are in high wind areas or that have wire strung around them or things like that. The red can occur along with a total absence of the borers, although they also can be a source of irritation to the tree.


I have logged box elder with plenty of barbed wire, among a long list of other foreign objects in it, and have never seen any red around the wire. Not saying it cannot happen, just saying I've never seen it to any extent. Maybe a tinge but nothing noteworthy. I know I have at least 2 or 3 logs on the rails right now with wire in it, I'll try to remember to take some pics when I crack them. My stand of box elder is wrapped securely by tons of tall hardwoods. The box elder never sees high wind for any length of time. I harvest from 52 acres of tall hardwoods too thick to even think about walking though it leisurely, so rule out high wind at least in my garden. 

And from my experience, in every single log I have ever opened, you will never, ever see red that can't be credited to the handiwork of one of these little fellas (or gals) and no it is not their "poop" as you say, that is doing it:









I know what you're thinking. "Hey Tex, no bug holes in that pic with the bug!" Well guess what . . . 








Only a few in the picture above. But you can't just sit at a desk and read about box elder or bugs, you have to follow them like ants in an anthill, you have to get your hands dirty, you have to cut lots and lots of box elder to make an informed, intelligent opinion . . . .








You see, once you start actually cutting into a log, you can see what happens inside the log (this picture compliments of Mrs. TT in one of her ads) and I assure you this is just a crude example of what I have discovered inside this wonderful species . . . . 








All the little black holes . . . I challenge you to find a flame boxelder without them. Oh sure, some desk jockey can "save image" of a baord with red flames but no visible borer holes, but find me someone who knows what the hell they are talking about who can crack a tree open with prolific red throughout the tree, and NO BORERS. 












phinds said:


> That had always been my belief as well but I was corrected on that fairly recently.


You were "corrected" on it,? I wish you could remember a few more details about your "correction". 

Paul, we have had this conversation before. If you don't accept the fact that sitting behind a computer collecting everyone else's information about trees and wood will not make you an expert, then quit "correcting" those of us who are actually doing it. You have wasted a lot of time by not tapping my extensive experience with box elder.


----------



## phinds

TT,

Gads, I certainly didn't mean to set you off like that. I'm perfectly willing to believe that my "correction" was totally mistaken, which is why I was very careful to explain that it was second hand and that I was not sure of it.

I'm always glad to be corrected when I'm wrong, but I was offering what I though was good information in the spirit of helpfulness and I think your rant in return is not called for.

I do admit that I totally forgot that I've seen a number of posts where it was clear that you probably know more about box elder than anyone else on the forum, certainly including me, and had I remembered that I would have doubted my "correction" right away, so I can to some extent see where you're coming from but I still think you overreacted to an honest attempt at passing on information.

Anyway, I do appreciate your correction of my "correction" and I stand corrected. 

Paul


----------



## TexasTimbers

I don't claim to know more about box elder than anyone on the forum, though based on my everyday involvement with it, it is very likely. I am also sure there's a whole lot more about it that I don't know, than I do. 

I didn't feel as though I were "set off" as I was typing that either. Nor do I believe I "over-reacted". I think my response could be considered "expected" given the facts. Try to look at it from my perspective. 

I responded to the poster's question with sincerity and candor, based on my vast experience in a field of endeavor in which I feel well qualified to speak, and with some degree of authority. Not to say that I consider myself "the" authority on it but certainly I do have some merit as a source of information on box elder seeing how I have felled, milled, processed and just overall eaten and breathed it to the tune of hundreds of logs, several hundred thousand board feet, and I have never seen a single log with any amount of red stain that I could not contribute to borers, and you come on and first rattle out of the box tell me in no certain words that you used to be confused about that as well, but now you have been corrected. 

_"That had always been my belief as well but I was corrected on that fairly recently. . . "_

It takes no small degree of arrogance to tell me I overreacted to a casual Ivory Tower remark, but that's just my opinion. :nerd:

What makes it worse, you're willing to throw it out there like that and by your own admission you aren't even sure where you heard this!

_". Actually, I THINK the correction was on this forum, but perhaps it was elsewhere. "_


"Gads" ??? You say "Gads" to my reply? That should be MY response. You over-stepped your realm of expertise and didn't tread lightly doing it; just casually stepped in as some kind of authority but all the while CYA with caveats strewn about. No Paul, I didn't overreact. You set a trap for yourself, stepped in it yourself, and are now telling me I am out of bounds illustrating as much. 

I think I know your intent here but since I am not sure I'll reserve my opinion on that. *Now *perhaps, I have overreacted, but what the heck if everyone else is "entitled" I may as well indulge myself, eh. :wacko:


For the record, I am not mad, hurt, contrite, or otherwise emotionally bent against you in any way and I encourage you to fire away with all tubes (submariner talk tho I have only been in a sub twice). Just don't tell me that I'm over-reacting because . . . . 



























*I NEVER, EVER, GO OVERBOARD OR OVERREACT TO ANYTHING!!!!! AND YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT SUCH AN ACCUSATION!!!!!*​
:laughing::laughing::laughing:




.


----------



## djg

TT
Wow those are beautiful pieces of wood. I wish mine had that much flame in them. After seeing all that streaking in your pictures, it kind of reminded me of the the streaking seen in soft maple. If memory serves me, and I might be wrong, those in maple are due to bugs (or worms). Hope I didn't open up another can of worms with that observation.

Thanks again for your pics and advice.


----------



## woodnthings

*This reminds me of an old saying...*

Never bring a knife to a gunfight, carry a big enough gun, use your pistol to fight off bad guys until you can get to your rifle, all's fair in love and war, Peace through "superior fire power" and last but not least never start an arguement with a "loaded" Texan on his own turf.....
Not winable. :no:
Seriously, I think the first response was within the bounds of a good discussion rather than a "rant" as was mentioned. JMO bill


----------



## TexasTimbers

Hey Woody wake up Kenbo. He has my favorite signature and it's good advice to us all . . . 

_"I might say something to lighten the situation, but that doesn't mean I take the situation lightly"_

or something along that line. I think that's what you just did! 

Paul is okay in my book, and I love his site but that don't mean we agree on everything. Actually I think he and I are too similar in some ways, like the + side of the magnet facing the + pole of another magnet . . . as long as we keep a safe distance we don't repel each other. :lol:


----------



## djg

TT
I don't mean to drag this post on and on, but I got one more (or two) questions, then I'll shut up. You've probable stated this before, but what part of Texas are you from? It's unusual (I think) around here in the midwest to have such a concentration of Box Elder trees in one area. I come across one every so often and I think it's generally considered a lowly desired tree. But to have as many as you do in one area it sounds like it's abundant like our oak forests here. Maybe your area is better suited for their growth. Is there a market for lumber from that many trees (obviously there is, or you wouldn't be doing it). What kind of commercial market (what uses are there) do you sell to? If I'm not getting too personal.

Thanks
Dan


----------



## phinds

TT,

You were spot on about the Morse and Blanchette paper being the basis of my "correction". I still can't figure out who sent it to me or told me about it, but no matter, it is the source. I didn't specifically remember it until you mentioned it.

Who ever sent it to me gave a paragraph of English that made sense, but may have been wrong. Wish I could find it. I get a lot of correspondence about wood, and I'm not always too organized. The original paper is WAY too academic for me ... makes my head hurt, but I slogged throught it, sort of.

I seem to read it somewhat differently than you do. I agree that they don't claim to much to be conclusive but they do state categorically that 67% to 85% of the stress areas they caused resulted in red stain with no biological borers, and that includes the stress areas in the control trees in which they didn't even inject any fungus. There experiments were too extensive for this to be a mistaken conclusion and it seems like a silly thing for them to lie about so I'm wondering what might be the reason for the totally contrasting difference between their experience and yours. Could it be a regional variation in the species? You're in Texas and they did their experiments in Minnisota; maybe that has something to do with it?

I agree w/ your assessment that direct practical experience is in some ways better than academic research, but I do have more respect that you (apparently) for the academic side and the vehemence with which you denounce it makes me think you must have been bitten on the ankle by a rabid college professor when you were young. :icon_smile:

Paul


----------



## TexasTimbers

Dan you aren't dragging anything out and ask all the ?s you want, that's the purpose of the forum.

You can see what part of Texas I live in the map. In the Red River Basin, pert much right on the river. Our area here is humid and green. I live right on the convergence of 3 separate zones. A fourth is real close and we have trees here from that zone as well, so I'm in high cotton. In fact, I live about 15 minutes from Cotton Center, Texas. 


No, I don't think it is normal for these trees to grow all in one spot like this, but I figure this can't be the only such patch. I _think_ I have figured out why it happened there though. 

As for the market, yes there us surely a market for it. It took 5 years for my wife and I to develop them to the point we have, so we aren't divulging the list just yet. :icon_cool: Seriously though we find new markets frequently that we never thought of. But if you run across some I will point you in the right directions in an email. 

Can't remember if it was you that PM'd me last night and asked, but I'll answer it hear. Someone asked how to spot a FBE that has been attacked by borers, and they wondered if it is akin to spotting EAB in ash. My answer is no. While some trees do have obvious entry holes, most don't have them. I don't know why. I do know that once they enter,, they tunnel like moles up and down the tree seemingly as if they were going through clay. I think once they enter, they don't come out often. But that is 100% pure speculation - I don't know for sure. 


What I do know, is you can be standing in from of one of these trees, and you can crane your neck all around looking for holes and good luck, most don;t have them. But just tap the base with saw and watch the red fly out. I never get tired of the thrill and the feeling of watching all those red chunks flying out of the entry cut. I can tell exactly what hue and pattern and mix of colors I'm going to see just by watching the shavings come out of the tree. 

I remember what it felt like when I was first learning to spot Walnut, but wasn't quite sure sometimes. I'd lay the blade gently into the tree and all this yellow shavings coming out and my heart would skip a beat and my face would look like this . . . . :icon_smile: I don't get as much of a rush with walnut now because I can spot them a mile away and I know what they will look like once inside, but with FBE, you never really know what you'll find and it's always like a treasure hunt. 

Good luck I hope you find some. :yes:


----------



## TexasTimbers

phinds said:


> I seem to read it somewhat differently than you do. I agree that they don't claim to much to be conclusive but they do state categorically that 67% to 85% of the stress areas they caused resulted in red stain with no biological borers, and that includes the stress areas in the control trees in which they didn't even inject any fungus.


No, I think you are reading it correctly. I'm saying those areas stressed only produce the stain where the stress is present. These trees here are red throughout, through and through. So my opinion is that for a tree to be fully involved like that, the whole tree would have to be stressed and nothing can do it that I know of except borers. 

Okay, maybe wind shake could, but I haven't seen that so I can't really say one way or the other. I haven't read the paper in a while so I shouldn't venture a statement based on memory, but my memory was that they halfway concluded that the fungi injections could not be attributed to causing the stain, am I remembering that wrong? 

I also remember them pretty much admitting that they were unsuccessful overall in their attempts to create flame box elder, from plain 'ol box elder but again just working on memory there. 



phinds said:


> . . . but I do have more respect that you (apparently) for the academic side and the vehemence with which you denounce it makes me think you must have been bitten on the ankle by a rabid college professor when you were young.


No not really. I do admire people who can spend that much time and effort plying the paper and cyber maze to create a body of work such as you have. I really do. What happens is, when an academia type tells me I'm wrong on something I believe to be correct, I use whatever weapon that is handy. Like Woody said all's fair in love and war. So there, the truth is out; I respect scholarly types until they jerk my chain and then all bets are off. :shifty:

I'm freezing my . . . . feet . . . . off in my shop and need to do some re-sawing before the sun goes down, but more importantly I need to create some heat in my core by sawing instead of jawing!


----------



## phinds

I know what you mean about the cold. I just came in from a brief spell in a 17 degree unheated garage.

I see what you mean now about the localized nature of their results ... did not get previously that you were focusing on that but it sounds to me like you're right. You also remember correctly that they did conclude (more or less) that the fungus did NOT seem to cause the red, but the stress did (very localize red), which is why I was curious about how it is that they get red around stress areas but you've never seen it. Just seems weird so I though maybe they're dealing with a different species or some growth difference. 

Also, you remember correctly that they could not produce anything like the incredible red that is in some of the wood that you've cut. Wish they HAD come up with a way since that is some neat wood.

Paul


----------



## johnep

As a citizen of a country which could easily be lost in Texas, since I joined the site, I have learnt more from you, Daren and Nancy then anyone else.
You are very much appreciated here in the UK.
johnep


----------



## TexasTimbers

John, 

I'm used to the role as the "learner", so all I can say is thank you for your wonderful compliment. I am humbled.


----------



## interceptor

I'm gonna be real careful about my statements here....I'm really a rookie at quite a bit of this...but have quite a bit of Box Elder on my place. I have not seen it elsewhere, though I'm sure it's not unique to my property. I've always considered them kind of a junk tree....make a real mess of the yard with the prolonged fall defoliation and little "helicopter" seeds my Grandaughter loves to throw around. The ones I've had to trim or cut have all had red staining in the cambian area, seldom much in the heartwood. My research (superficial) indicated verbatim "A red stain in the wood of living trees caused by _Fusarium reticulatum _var. _negundinis _apparently is specific to boxelder. The stain regularly is associated with Cerambycid beetles and the galleries of other insects, but itself does no damage to the wood". I suspect the trees on my property were planted as windbreaks....or for the entertaining properties of the seeds. After reading TexasTimber's posts, will endeavor to slice up a couple of the next cripples and do a bit of an autopsy.....


----------



## interceptor

Uhhh....sorry, thought I was posting a reply to the Box Elder thread, my bad....


----------



## del schisler

*box elder*

the tree's that i cut from the middle of illinois were blood red When you sawed them saw dust was red than when they were cut for lumber It was red Maybe where they are from All i know these were red done my 2 cents


----------



## TexasTimbers

Interceptor, they are considered junk trees here also, as they are pretty much everywhere by farmers, ranchers, homeowners etc. That description you quoted is off the USDA Forest Service site. I recognize it because it is in my Box Elder bookmark folder and I just went to the site to make sure I was correct. The USDA has great info, but remember .


The key phrase being: _"A red stain in the wood of living trees caused by Fusarium reticulatum var. negundinis apparently is specific to boxelder . . . " _

The reference cited for that statement is this: 

_"14. Hepting, George H. 1971. Diseases of forest and shade trees of the United States. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Handbook 386. Washington, DC. 685 p."_


I have intended on more than one occasion to get my hands on that book and see what reference Mr. Hepting cites as the authority for that statement, or if he claims to have concluded this himself based on research etc. but I haven't put much effort into locating this work. Update haha. I just googled it and believe I found it available online for zero wampum. I'll try to find page 685 and be back with an answer. . . . . . .


----------



## TexasTimbers

I couldn't find a site that allowed the whole book to be read but I did find several interesting articles I had not read before. Looks like the Turks are losing some of theirs to the _Fusarium solani_. But it's not turning them red, it's turning them dead. 

This article is very interesting. We can't know how accurate their research is, if it is 100% correct or 50% correct or somewhere in between, but if correct it supports the idea that any kind of sufficient stress will cause the tree to react in a way that produces the red. 

Only local to the stress though. Paul and I were both correct if the stress theory holds water, but we just weren't on the same page. As a sawyer I think in terms of entire trees. He was focusing only on causation period, even just localized. I wasn't getting that. Partly because my trees, all of them, are entirely red throughout. And have bugs throughout. Simple minds simple conclusions. And my IQ is allegedly . . . well never mind. But anyway some of my trees have less or more than others, but I have yet to ever cut a box elder out of this patch that wasn't filled with red at least to some degree. And that kind of bothers now because . . . 

If this research article is correct, then in my opinion it wouldn't be hard to take a regular box elder, and with some creative thinking turn it into a flame box elder within, oh, say a season or two? Who knows, but think about it. :smartass:

My problem is finding a box elder that *doesn't* have any flame. Just the opposite of you folks. I have thunked up at least 4 different ways to put stress on an entire tree and not have to be there to do it and three of them are economical, the fourth being somewhat expensive but 100% guaranteed to create red throughout if the stress theory is correct. My idea is that the stress had to be non-stop, and not just you showing up once a day for an hour with a pecan shaker attachment on your tractor. That might work though it wouldn't be "economical" to run it 24/7. 

Someone go out and locate a patch of plane jane box elders and let's see if we can put me out of business. Wait a minute, on second thought, I haven't thought of any way to stress an entire tree economically. :no:


----------



## pabloj13

*What makes the Box Elder turn red inside?*

<runs for cover>


:shifty:


----------



## TexasTimbers

:surrender: No cover necessary. 




Gonna merge your trolling-for-controversy post into the appropriate thread, and you can read everyone's opinion on the matter. :shutup:


----------



## pabloj13

TexasTimbers said:


> :surrender: No cover necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna merge your trolling-for-controversy post into the appropriate thread, and you can read everyone's opinion on the matter. :shutup:


Just joshing you guys.


----------

