# Making Charcuterie Boards Restaurant Safe?



## DatacomGuy (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks to Facebook, I received a rather large inquiry from a gentleman starting a restaurant for 15-20 charcuterie boards and 15-20 sandwich serving boards, and a handful of beer flight boards. 

I would really like to take this opportunity as it could be worth a few grand, and I have some design ideas.. but, no idea how to price something this large. And he wants to be able to wash them daily. What would you finish them in to be able to do so? Obviously mineral oil isn't enough - what about a clear epoxy? Or?

Would love any advice.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Unless he's going to soak them, which he shouldn't, then mineral oil will work well. Any finish that hardens will begin flaking off after a while but mineral oil can just be reapplied as often as needed. He can do it or you can offer it as an add-on service 4 times each year or whatever y'all deem necessary.

David


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## DatacomGuy (Aug 20, 2016)

difalkner said:


> Unless he's going to soak them, which he shouldn't, then mineral oil will work well. Any finish that hardens will begin flaking off after a while but mineral oil can just be reapplied as often as needed. He can do it or you can offer it as an add-on service 4 times each year or whatever y'all deem necessary.
> 
> David


Great advice. Thanks David, really appreciate it.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

check with the _local_ health inspectors - in first person, not some web site.
some locales require anything that comes in contact with food be NSF certified, some require anything wood to go thru the dishwasher/sanitizing cycle, etc.


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## DatacomGuy (Aug 20, 2016)

TomCT2 said:


> check with the _local_ health inspectors - in first person, not some web site.
> some locales require anything that comes in contact with food be NSF certified, some require anything wood to go thru the dishwasher/sanitizing cycle, etc.


Great advice - Is this something you recommend i should do, or something the business owner should be familiar with?


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

DatacomGuy said:


> Great advice - Is this something you recommend i should do, or something the business owner should be familiar with?


Strictly speaking, thats on the business owner to do, its their job to make sure their business is in line with local laws, its your jobs to provide hem the product they ask for. That said though, its not a bad idea to look into it, just to make sure that you wont be liable should anything happen. Seems like personal responsibility isnt a personal thing anymore, and you dont want to be in a situation where this guys customers are getting sick and he sues you. 

Make sure that you leave the final decision on anything up to the client, and get it in writing


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

ref "...Is this something you recommend i should do,"

Oh, hi DataComGuy! say you know those sandwich boards you dropped off the other day?
well, the health inspector came through the other day and said the wood is a no-no - so I won't be needing the charcuterie boards you brought over today. sorry, I meant to call you earlier.


makes for uncomfortable moments - so just be sure the answer is known from a reliable source....


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

When a sales rep, I made sure I knew as much as possible about regs etc.
Make sure the customer always comes to you first for almost anything.
johnep


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Just to add a note, he's going to get them from somewhere so yes, being informed will help. Even if he just orders from a restaurant supplier off their shelf he's going to get them. Is there a way to find out what other restaurants in your area have done in acquiring these boards, assuming there are others? Maybe in asking you'll pick up new customers but you'll also learn what others have done.

Just make sure you stay in front of him to provide what he needs. If he specifies a finish then use that finish. You can certainly enlighten him on the different finishes and what they bring to the table (pun intended :grin but get his choices and the order in writing.

David


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

If the wood is joined and glued it won't survive a commercial dishwasher. My wife has ruined three cutting boards this way; told her not to put them in the DW. Now I have a good supply of maple pen blanks.
Just to be safe- call the health inspector yourself and get their statement. My wife was director of our church day care and the health inspector was great but some can be real picky.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

epicfail48 said:


> Strictly speaking, thats on the business owner to do, its their job to make sure their business is in line with local laws, its your jobs to provide hem the product they ask for. That said though, its not a bad idea to look into it, just to make sure that you wont be liable should anything happen. Seems like personal responsibility isnt a personal thing anymore, and you dont want to be in a situation where this guys customers are getting sick and he sues you.
> 
> Make sure that you leave the final decision on anything up to the client, and get it in writing





This is absolutely good advise.


George


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

This company supplies boards and also this board-preserving-wax for them to use:

https://www.muskokawoodworking.ca/collections/board-preserving-wax

Once you get the regulations figured out and you supply them, perhaps offer a follow up service where you treat their boards as needed for an appropriate fee.


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## Echo415 (Apr 3, 2018)

At least in my area, wood products that come in contact with food can be cleaned with a simple wipe down using a sanitizing solution like star-san. I have a friend in the restaurant industry(serves pizza on wooden paddles) and he's got the ok from health inspectors for this method of cleaning. The local health inspector is the final approval authority and every one tends to be a bit eccentric on what they will and won't allow. I agree that this is something the owner should do and definitely get everything in writing. I do most of my business by email so I have records of every conversation when designing a piece.

I would stick with mineral oil or walnut oil for the finish depending on the type of wood you are using and just reapply a bit more often. Wood is always going to be high maintenance and you want something that doesn't give off any smell or taste to the food served on it.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Echo415 said:


> would stick with mineral oil or walnut oil for the finish depending on the type of wood you are using and just reapply a bit more often. Wood is always going to be high maintenance and you want something that doesn't give off any smell or taste to the food served on it.



The one bit of that i have to disagree with is using walnut oil as a finish. Theres always the possibility of a nut allergy being triggered by anything related to said nuts, even with the oil. Now, oils that have been process a certain way, like the walnut oil used for finishing, are supposed to be treated in a way that denatures the proteins responsible for the allergic reaction, but as someone with a severe peanut allergy, i would caution you that its not worth the risk when theres a much safer option. Stick with the mineral oil, anaphylaxis is a bad way to go


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Nobody seems to have an allergic reaction to olive oil. 

Food-grade mineral oil is probably about as neutral as it gets.


Olive oil is all I have ever used in the hot-oil finishing of kitchen woods of any kind.
With a junk steam-iron, a beeswax finish would be quick.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*My Advice...Big NO!!! to plastics of any kind...*



DatacomGuy said:


> Thanks to Facebook, I received a rather large inquiry from a gentleman starting a restaurant for 15-20 charcuterie boards and 15-20 sandwich serving boards, and a handful of beer flight boards.
> 
> I would really like to take this opportunity as it could be worth a few grand, and I have some design ideas.. but, no idea how to price something this large. And he wants to be able to wash them daily. What would you finish them in to be able to do so? Obviously mineral oil isn't enough - what about a clear epoxy? Or?
> 
> Would love any advice.


First, let me validate my perspectives on this topic and why I draw the conclusions I offer...

I have been a traditional woodworker for over 40 years, much of that while working within other professions, but always keeping my hand on the professional side of it. One of the most sought-after items is those for the Kitchen and the ubiquitous "Butcher Blocks" "Cutting Boards" and "Charcuterie" being asked for most often...

I have gotten to watch the complete evolution of these over time from "plastic is best" in the late 70's and 80's...until we all learned through the events of actual human deaths, that plastic actually can (once cut on enough and not properly cleaned) grow bacteria in all the cut marts to the point of being unserviceable. This can happen at a very alarming rate!!! Even though many are still in service, little can change a human habit once formed, so many still cut on plastic. Then studies came out proving the logic of our forebears that *"wood is good"* because there are some species *(Acer Species...aka Maples and related)* that actually have antimicrobial properties within the wood itself, and cleaning them is nothing more than vinegar and/or citric acid. I have designed and made everything from working Harvest Tables to full-on professional "stump style" and "butch blocking" traditional cutting surfaces for everything from Butchery, and Bakery, to Abattoir facilities. That history is what facilitated the advice below offered.

Hands down, the best wood for "cutting surfaces" are going to be * Acer spp (Maples) and related species*. Its been that way for millenia, and only the last 100 have we "experimented" with other materials and woods. Most of which don't come close to the performance of Maple and many are just plain bad to use. 

As to construction, I promote "End Grain" orientation whenever possible. If on the flat...bark up only!!!!...as this has the shortest fiber pattern exposure (aka splinters) and follows the traditional adage of: "*use wood as it stands living or fall in the forest."* That's not a hard and fast rule but a very dominantly found tradition with very strong logic behind it. If wood is used for a cutting board (or a floorboard) with the "pith side up" the splinters get longer and the fiber structure can trap liquids down inside the wood!!! My minimum thickness for 90% of what I design and/or make for a cutting board is 100mm and I prefer actual "stump style" blocks at 300mm or greater since these can be resurfaced and last over 100 years in continued use. For Charcuterie and related my minimum is 40mm. I prefer green wood over "kiln dried" (by today's standards in woodworking), and joinery over glues whenever possible...

As to finishes, I only use food grade oils and beeswax for* all but the cutting surface. *There are countless blends out there, but just plain pure food grade Tung or Flax oil rubbed into the wood is standard by many. Beeswax cut in with citrus oil which also is a great cleaning agent in its own right. *Note* that some Chief and others do not want any "drying oil" used on their boards...*at all!!!* I support this and understand the reason, as they can trap bacteria and/or taint the flavor of the food. Some want it just bare wood, while others (me included) will use Coconut oil (my all time favorite) or Olive Oil which both have been used for over 1000 years. As to going rancid...NO, they do not...IF...the surface is cleaned properly after each use and wiped down with fresh oil that is blotted off with warm water...

I would note, the reason Coconut Oil is one of (if not my primary) favorite oils for food prep surfaces is its very neutral affect as a food grade/based "non-drying oil." Even more so than Olive Oil. Anaphylaxis is extremely rare with coconut oils, (I have never heard or read of it happening) and one of the reasons it has been used safely for so long historically. Contact dermatitis is also virtual nonexistent with Coconut Oils....Nothing is 100% safe...other than dry wood, which some do prefer. 

Mineral Oil treatment are a "new concept" based more on trend (and the petroleum industry pushing byproduct onto the market to boost profits) than in a good practice based on known (and proven) traditions. I know of few Chiefs that would ever tolerate mineral oil ever getting anywhere near a dish they are preparing. Mineral oils are not a material of "food"...they have (depending on manufacture) very strong tastes/flavors, and are actually a laxative. Not a quality I personally want around food or food prep surfaces. Mineral Oils are touted as colorless and odorless but do have a strong flavor, especially to those with sensitive palates. *As a by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline they really have no place near food preparation surfaces in my (et al) view. * It's long been used as a common ingredient in lotions, creams, ointments, and cosmetics, but even these are now being determined to be poor for human skin contact over duration. It's lightweight and inexpensive for industry to* manufacture from waste byproduct* and that is the main reason it has been so thoroughly marketed in many products of modernity. For me, and what I have seen, this is one of those materials that came into fashion based on "marketing" not from actual good practice or proven long standing tradition...

Before I end this post, let me speak to the other woods often used, that probably shouldn't be. One of the most common currently isn't a wood at all...Its a grass!!...and that would be Bamboo. Now I love bamboo, and it is a pretty cool material, to say the least. Why don't I like it for cutting boards? The main reason is it dulls the crap out of good knives because of the natural silica content in the cell structure of the plant. I also know that many fall apart because they are not made well. Like most (if not all) good cutting surfaces...*END GRAIN IS BEST!!!*...and if I make one of Bamboo (I have made a few lite duty ones), it is only made with an "end grain" orientation. Channeling in the surface needs to be of a nature (like U channel) that can be cleaned well and easily if these are used at all. I don't recommend them nor put them on my projects unless specifically requested.

The next group is "nut woods." I don't recommend any of these typically because of allergic reactions and toxicity, as well as, tainting the flavor of foods, which they can do. These same reasons are why I personally do not ever recommend tropical or other "unknown" hardwoods, as many of these too can taint flavor or have toxins in them or the potential to. Cherry to has a distinct flavor to those with sensitive palates, as well as silicate in the fibers. Oaks and related species are entirely too full of tannic acid, and are "open-celled" which is not a good thing to have on a most types of cutting boards. There are exceptions for such as end grain orientation Quercus alba (White Oak) species, and only for such things as the culinary arts aimed primarily at Smoke, Barbecued meats, and cold cuts...but hat is a very niche area of cuisine usually.

Good Luck with your project!

j


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

I'll check with the wife regarding her experiences with the health inspector over about 15 years. She just said there was no problem as they never had wood in the kitchen.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

the theory that mineral oil is not suitable around foodstuff is absolute and utter nonsense.


the theory that a health inspector from any other jurisdiction other than the eatery is a reliable source is exceedingly bad advice. first because 'the rules' are all local and vary from none to nonsense, second because inspectors are famous for having opinions and basing enforcement on unusual interpretations of 'the rules.'


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I carved 70 spoons and 30 forks in birch. I pulled spoke shaves more than a mile to round off the handles.
Everything got a 325F olive oil finish which cannot be washed off and cannot go rancid(myth).
Not even as I was stirring boiling rice last night. 



We have a "Food Safe" Certification program here, normally required even for entry level work in the food industry.
It's more for the people and makes no mention of prep tool qualities.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Several years ago we had a half-used bottle of olive oil in the pantry and didn't realize it was there. When we opened it I gotta' say it was a rancid as can be - horrible! So yes, olive oil will go rancid. Will it go rancid when spread thin and soaked into wood? I don't think so. That's not a scientific test but in the bottle it will definitely go rancid. 

David


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Olive oil inside wood is not exposed to oxygen in the air. 325F keeps things quite clean.
I have not had any birch kitchen prep tool go "off" in all the years that I did spoons and forks.


Stagnant oil in a 1/2-full bottle is an entirely different matter.


I buy Greek Iliada Kalamata oil in 3 liter tins.
I decant about 750 ml at a time in a kitchen bottle.
Has a nice but faint taste of kalamata olives.
I don't think that I use 3 tins in a year but I've just opened
the last one I can find.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

TomCT2 said:


> the theory that mineral oil is not suitable around foodstuff is absolute and utter nonsense.
> 
> 
> the theory that a health inspector from any other jurisdiction other than the eatery is a reliable source is exceedingly bad advice. first because 'the rules' are all local and vary from none to nonsense, second because inspectors are famous for having opinions and basing enforcement on unusual interpretations of 'the rules.'


Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.

FOOD for thought (pun intended)....


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Choices...We all have them to make in life...*



TomCT2 said:


> ...the theory that mineral oil is not suitable around foodstuff is absolute and utter nonsense...


*That is an opinion...You are certainly welcome to it...*

Case in point, through history, humans do some pretty...STUPID!!!...things to themselves all the while claiming...its safe...and there is not issue!!!

We put Cestoda flate worm eggs (aka Tape Worm) in capsules to control weight (this habit is still around), use "Arsenic" as a "blood cleaners" (still do in other countries) spread "Cyanide around homes to control pest and "claimed that was safe for humans too"...

Then came DDT, Chloridain, Dursban, and countless other...allegedly safe petrol chemicals to use around humans and the environment...that turned out to be not only not be safe, but deadly...

I will clarify again, I have a proven and publicly posted background within Supervisor Professional level certifications in Pest and Wildlife Control (aka Chemist and Toxicology), a strong Science background in general, and a rather respectable professional standing within the woodworking industry at large...

Germane to this topic is a very strong tie to the Culinary Arts with some of my design product lines, and there are many Chefs and Culinary Professionals...me included... (I didn't say all of us!) that don't like the taste of..."mineral oil"...and yes to those with "refined palettes " it does have a very distinct flavor of petroleum that does not complement food the way...coconut and olive oil...does. 

*Again...by all means respectfully... do and believe as you wish personally...*




epicfail48 said:


> The one bit of that i have to disagree with is using walnut oil as a finish...


I can't at all agree with the "mineral oil" recommendation...

*However, you are spot on with the recommendation about anaphylaxis regarding the...miss use...of walnut oil!!!*

Its a great oil...and one of the best "painter oils" of times gone by there is, as a side note. As a food grade drying oil (I will not use mechanical or chemical expressed extraction forms of it) it has many wonderful applications in woodworking. 

Nevertheless, unless I am the one applying it...AND!!!!...the client has requested it on a project, I won't use it for food contact surfaces outside my own purview. Even those that go with requested orders, there is a disclaimer that goes with the product about risks with future applications...and my recommendations against it. 

Use coconut or olive oils or blends there of...


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil is quite safe for humans to consume. Why, I don't know or care.
Read the MSDS to read the real facts. So I went to the drug store and I bought some. 

Put it in the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. There is sits (5 years?) unopened.


The 325F olive oil treatment uses Charles' Law of gas physics.
It is done once and finished in 3 minutes and 30 seconds. 

The End. 



Bigger pieces of wood (carved dishes) have taken as long as 5 minutes.
BUT, you have to cross your fingers = at any time the heat could POP! the dish.
I was finishing the spoons and forks a dozen at a time and never lost a single one.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

We have a wooden salad bowl and servers. I simply used cooking oil and just kept pouring it in until wood would absorb no more. Still in use 60 years later and still feels very slightly oily to touch.
johnep


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## Echo415 (Apr 3, 2018)

I never thought about nut allergies until now but it is a good point. I've been using walnut oil for awhile and no fatalities that I am aware of.

Sometimes I wonder if these crazy allergies is just nature's way of attempting to thin the population, I don't remember it ever being such an issue growing up.

Edit: Also make sure whatever finish you choose is gluten-free. That is a pretty big deal too these days.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
> It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.
> 
> FOOD for thought (pun intended)....


Pretty much everything nowadays has a petroleum a derived component. The packaging your food comes in, the instruments used to prepared it, utensils used to consume it. Just because something has something as its base doesn't make it a problem, if you were drinking unrefined petroleum sure, but refined, purified, pharmaceutical grade mineral oil? Not much of a problem, that. 

Mineral oil is a petroleum product and bananas are radioactive, but neither are a problem worth worrying about


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
> It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.
> 
> FOOD for thought (pun intended)....



it is complete and utter nonsense put forth by people totally ignorant of science.
every 'advanced' nation in the world has some flavor of 'health and safety' organization and not a single one of them have any objections to human internal or external use.
a very small number of people have skin reactions to excessive use of mineral oil; and cocoa butter, and milk baths, and various bath soaps, and and and
you probably don't want to know all the stuff you use every day is petroleum based.

Teflon has the same ignorant objections - Teflon is approved for joint implants
OMG it's PFOA! a catalyst once use for PTFE application - only the French are able to find parts per _trillion_ on finished cookware, which they attribute to 'noise' - yet look at the ignorance and hysteria. if you want to worry about PFOA, check the levels in your child's flame retardant sleep ware.

cast iron will give you iron toxicity. real science shows One-A-Day with Iron has hundreds of times more iron.
aluminum causes Alzheimer -
chrome leaches out of stainless steel and kills you. wait until they find out about the nickel...


but the website will sell you a purge that will keep you alive forever.


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

If I were doing it for my home, Walnut oil would be the choice from the salad oil section of the grocery store. BUT THAT IS FOR MY HOME. I am by no means an expert on the subject and I do know that walnut oil absorbs and cures.

As for pricing just search "charcuterie board" on Amazon. The prices will amaze you.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*"Oil Tempering"...Simply an awesome approach...!!!*



Brian T said:


> ...The 325F olive oil treatment uses Charles' Law of gas physics.
> It is done once and finished in 3 minutes and 30 seconds...


Needless to say, those that know me know my love and dedication to the traditional arts...wood is just one very small one within many...

I also live for seeing acient means, methods and materials being either reused and/or rediscovered (my Grandmother would call them "remembered.")

I know of several *"oil tempering"* modalities employed in tradtional woodworking, from "oil boiling" to "cook in" systems as you seem to be using. I have never taken much time with experimenting or applying these finishing treatment practices...

*Reading through your approach and the logic to this method as you employ it is simply brilliant!!! * Its one of those "so simple" yet not done by many (any?) today when we know from old descriptions that it was used for precisely such applications. I know that within other cultures such strategies are also utilized to finish and render wood utensils, weapons (wood Knives, throwing stick, bow, atlatl etc), and related with not only a durable finish, but greater strength and longevity in applied use. Yet again not something within the mainstream of application with most woodworkers today here in North America.



Brian T said:


> ...Bigger pieces of wood (carved dishes) have taken as long as 5 minutes.
> BUT, you have to cross your fingers = at any time the heat could POP! the dish.
> I was finishing the spoons and forks a dozen at a time and never lost a single one...


I really look forward to trying some experiments with different plant based lipids, and perhaps even the standard finish (Heritage) I have used for so long. I really am curious to see what types of reactions-events take place, and setting up several control pieces for examining durability under stress and neglect... 

I could see vessels (aka bowls, plates, vase, etc) having some rather dramatic interstitial distortions from this finishing modality, nevertheless (I think) the risk is worth the outcome. If a turned or carved vessel is going to fail under such thermal duress treatments, it would most likely fail in time from normal use anyway. Your current approach to this "oil tempering" is more than applicable, and if a vessel survive such treatment, it should be better in the long run for it.

I am wondering if you have ever expanded this method to include any kind of "oil boiling" or related? What plant or related lipids have you used? 



Brian T said:


> ...Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil is quite safe for humans to consume. Why, I don't know or care...Read the MSDS to read the real facts. So I went to the drug store and I bought some...Put it in the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. There is sits (5 years?) unopened...


I enjoyed that comment...Thank you...

As an Rx and other targeted applications, I see it as an applicable material. I carry it in both my WEMT bag, and the medicine cabinet as well. Its not used much at all these days (by me) other than softening bandages that may be sticking to wounds or as a field (limited use), as a laxative, earl canal treatments or to remove ticks, and related dermal parasites. Mineral Oil has many uses in this and related regard...So I definitely don't see it (in limited use application) as being problematic at all...just like many Rx methods...

Thanks again for a great post!!!


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

TomCT2 said:


> it is complete and utter nonsense put forth by people totally ignorant of science.
> every 'advanced' nation in the world has some flavor of 'health and safety' organization and not a single one of them have any objections to human internal or external use.
> a very small number of people have skin reactions to excessive use of mineral oil; and cocoa butter, and milk baths, and various bath soaps, and and and
> you probably don't want to know all the stuff you use every day is petroleum based.
> ...


Tom , first let's get one fact clear......I might be what you'd call a dumb ******* country boy, BUT LOOKS can be decieving!!! And it's ones personal preference as to what they chose to oil it with...I just stated a fact about the oil AND it's scientific FACT that mineral oil IS a distilling byproduct of producing GASOLINE....YOU wouldn't want to drink gasoline due to it's harmful so in theory why the byproduct???? I'm just asking/putting a thought of common sense out there.......AND no I don't intentionally /knowingly drink teflon AND yes we ingest many things we shouldn't due to "science" says it's "safe".......here in the deep hills we say...."It DON'T matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, IT'S still a PIG", so all I'm stating is the scientific fact mineral oil IS a distilling byproduct of GASOLINE and I didn't water it down, a fact is a fact.....OIL with it all you want.

P.S. We're from the country, we DON'T wear sleep ware!!!!! :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::wink::vs_lol: No PFOA issues here!!!


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Read the MSDS online for facts. Dr. Google can be such a fraud sometimes.
Next, understand the biochemistry of mineral oil metabolism ( there will be a snap quiz on Monday).
Is that any much worse than condensed honey bee vomit? Or the decomposed anchovy in Worcestershire Sauce?



Jay: I only ever used olive oil. The fatty acid chains in the triglyceride are fairly short (C16?)
so the diffusion path length would be fairly clear. I never read any BS about allergic reactions.
I have lots of good olive oil in my house. I did the spoons and forks maybe a dozen at a time and slopped on extra oil
on the end grain as I watched the oil soak in. . . . then wipe off excess.



I did do a dish with straight beeswax. The pre-oven application of melted wax was a nightmare of a mess in the kitchen.
Technically, the process worked exactly as effectively as predicted. Not again, I think. Waxes are long chain esters,
some running C60. Too big. It works but plant oils do the job very well.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

"Read the MSDS online for facts."

....LOL, I did and also looked up "who writes the MSDS facts"......the manufacturer/supplier does...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:...another southern term...." talking 'bout putting the fox in charge of the hen house".....just stating the facts :vs_cool: :wink:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Interesting...and Thanks again!!!*

*Hello DataComeGuy...Last Post on this topic unless you want more yourself, as I don't want to get too off track from your original topic...*



Brian T said:


> ...Read the MSDS online for facts. Dr. Google can be such a fraud sometimes?...


I agree...about "Dr. Google" (sometimes) and folks should always read MSDS and Hazard Substances Fact Sheets

I think this might have been aimed at Tim (?) not sure...As stated I think *mineral oil has its place as an Rx or in industry for sure...
*
As to MSDS and HSFS...they were (at one time) my life as they are huge in the pest control and chemistry industry...However!!!!...many can be very misleading and hard to read for lay-folk and professional alike.

Here is just an excerpt for an HSFS from New Jersey...for those interested in..."all the facts"...by all means search it out...

Common Name: *MINERAL OIL (HIGHLY REFINED)*
CAS Number: 8012-95-1
DOT Number: None
DOT Hazard Class: None
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
*HAZARD SUMMARY*

* Mineral Oil can affect you when breathed in.
* Mineral Oil can irritate the skin causing a rash or burning
feeling on contact.
* Breathing Mineral Oil can irritate the lungs causing
coughing and/or shortness of breath.
IDENTIFICATION
Mineral Oil is a colorless, odorless, oily liquid. Mineral Oils
are used in medications, cosmetics, soaps and pesticides, and
as lubricants.

REASON FOR CITATION
* *Mineral Oil is on the Hazardous Substance List *because it
is regulated by OSHA and cited by ACGIH, NIOSH,
IARC and NFPA.
* Definitions are provided on page 5.



Brian T said:


> ...I only ever used olive oil. The fatty acid chains in the triglyceride are fairly short (C16 ...


I can see that...but probably not as well as you (LOL) in the chemistry department...I'm out of practice!!!



Brian T said:


> ...I never read any BS about allergic reactions...


Anaphylaxis to Olive Oils (??) I would agree is more "BS" and mistaken identification than anything...

Can it occur? Anything is possible with allergens and sensitivities, but again these would be extremely rare and its almost impossible to dial in without hospitalization and broad spectrum testing to even be certain.

With Walnut Oil, its not as rare at all, as this and related "nut allergies" often do have a more common anaphylactic response and/or sensitivities with some people on that spectrum including contact dermatitis...more common, but again with a "heat treated" pure food-grade sample I would say it gets rarer...yet...still not worth the risk in my view and experience. Any Doctors that specialize in food allergen responses would ( and have) agreed its not worth the risk with *"true nut oils,"* as it moves past what we would use as woodworkers and more to do with what consumers might try if they here a "nut oil" like walnut is used and then they try to reapply a similar form oil either laden with and or contaminated with the offending proteins that cause the reaction.

Case examples of EMT responses (I'm out of that loop now) was relatively common per annum for Walnut (rarer still for Olive related) but again...was it the oil?...or a protein contaminate of some form...or...something else?

Without specific case study and testing, much of this comes to be "urban legend" not science...



Brian T said:


> ...I did do a dish with straight beeswax. The pre-oven application of melted wax was a nightmare of a mess in the kitchen...Technically, the process worked exactly as effectively as predicted. Not again, I think. Waxes are long chain esters,some running C60. Too big. It works but plant oils do the job very well. ...


I can't wait to try some of the blends!!!

Any pointers for the beeswax? Thin out with food grade citrus oil and keep the temp below flash point?

Have you tried multi treatments? Oil boiling and then the oven?

I think it could be made applicable beyond just utensils for full on "Stump Blocks" but this will have to be on a more professional level and commercial-custom oven. My friend dug out the old "cauldron" that could easily hold many liters of oil and handle a proper tree stump and/or wood items for jointing a full butcher block...

Thanks again Brian for this great advise and method...very applicable to all this!!!


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Fact: Waxes all melt at approx 60C. So you keep the wax in a ratty old coffee mug and melt it in a pot of hot water.
Boiling (100C) is not required at all. Smoke yourself stupid at the same time = there's nothing to burn.
I used typical plumber's flux brushes (new) and tossed them. For $0.15 each, I won't clean up.


Pointers? Don't get smart and slap the wax brush around. 

The splash and the spray of wax droplets will be obvious tomorrow.

Lay it on and let the excess melt off in the oven.


I'm just very fond of this as it's a one-shot finish, done for decades with zero maintenance
and it's all over in 3 minutes and 30 seconds. Suits my slothful character.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

Tim - 
do you know who approves the MSDS written by the supplier?
insisting that inhaling a mist of mineral oil is bad for you, as indicated by OSHA, is a bit like drinking hot ice tea because the captain of the Titanic warns that ice is bad for you.

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (6000 items). One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like: Although the major use of petroleum is as a fuel, (gasoline, jet fuel, heating oil),
and petroleum and natural gas are often used to generate electricity, there are many other uses. Here are some of the ways petroleum is used in our every day lives. All plastic is made from petroleum and plastic is used almost everywhere: in cars, houses, toys, computers and clothing. Asphalt used in road construction is a petroleum product as is the synthetic rubber in the tires. Paraffin wax comes from petroleum, as do fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, detergents, phonograph records, photographic
film, furniture, packaging materials, surfboards, paints, and artificial fibers used in clothing, upholstery, and carpet backing.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*As you should be...*



Brian T said:


> ...I'm just very fond of this as it's a one-shot finish, done for decades with zero maintenance and it's all over in 3 minutes and 30 seconds. Suits my slothful character...


Thank you so much Brian!!!

You should be "fond of" this method!!!

It is simply great and brilliantly simple in concept. Genius is often in the simplest things. This method will create a highly durable finish that has no reason to not age wonderfully with the utensil (and/or cutting boards it is applied to...once I figure out how to do it on larger pieces of wood.)

What I think I like most is the fact that this truly becomes a "interstitial finish" more than most...and it's traditional!!!

Thanks again,

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

THANKS Tom, I'll make sure I don't eat any of those petroleum based things....since datacomguy's question was about what's food safe for the boards he was inquiring about. I only stated some facts of what mineral oil is made of.

Datacomguy, I apologize to you for getting your thread side tracked. You're going to be a provider of a product...gather all the FACTS and be safe... DO ask your client IF you see a unsafe fact that you know of IF he/she request to use that material/fact, they may just be unaware of it.

Enjoy your build!!!


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## kalopsia (Dec 17, 2018)

DatacomGuy said:


> Great advice - Is this something you recommend i should do, or something the business owner should be familiar with?




Haven’t read the entire thread, but the quote above is the best advice - have the business owner do their due diligence and contact the health department. 

If you want the business, go the extra mile (ie customer service) and contact your local health department, and try to talk directly to the actual food program manager (they back the food code). Talking to an inspector may leave some gray area since they aren’t perfect and are looking for the big no-no’s. Inspector experience varies and this may be above their general knowledge level. 

Get the any correspondence in writing so you can print it for the owner, and cover your butt. 

YMMV, but my wife is a food program manager in WA state. Locally, they require what you’re describing as requiring the following as a minimum:
- hand wash with soap and water
- 1 minute soak in bleach water 

Furthermore, any soft wood has to be sanded down flush and retreated however it was protected. No rough/unfinished edges, as it harbors bacteria. 

Your local laws may be slightly different, WA state has more strict rules than most states. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

Tennessee Tim said:


> THANKS Tom, I'll make sure I don't eat any of those petroleum based things....since datacomguy's question was about what's food safe for the boards he was inquiring about. I only stated some facts of what mineral oil is made of.
> 
> Datacomguy, I apologize to you for getting your thread side tracked. You're going to be a provider of a product...gather all the FACTS and be safe... DO ask your client IF you see a unsafe fact that you know of IF he/she request to use that material/fact, they may just be unaware of it.
> 
> Enjoy your build!!!



you are concerned about ingestion but citing inhalation issues.
there is the overt consensus here that saw dust should not be inhaled. 

are you giving up wood?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

TomCT2 said:


> Tim -
> do you know who approves the MSDS written by the supplier?
> insisting that inhaling a mist of mineral oil is bad for you, as indicated by OSHA, is a bit like drinking hot ice tea because the captain of the Titanic warns that ice is bad for you.
> 
> ...


The MSDS is written by the chemist of the company selling the product. All they really have to do is list substances known to be hazardous. A lot of things are proprietary and they may only list the worst ingredients.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

TomCT2 said:


> you are concerned about ingestion but citing inhalation issues.
> there is the overt consensus here that saw dust should not be inhaled.
> 
> are you giving up wood?


Tom, datacomguy's question was related to safety and in that would be ingestion in his issue.... YOU'RE bringing up something towards me that's NOT related to his question AGAIN....AND YOU'RE guessing/insinuating SOMETHING you KNOW NOTHING about ME OR HOW I operate. DROP IT!!! It's NOT informative to the OP original post. I haven't citied anything referencing inhalation.


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## Echo415 (Apr 3, 2018)

Going off of the general advice in this thread and whatever the health inspector ends up saying, I think that you'll just have to experiment with a few different finishes and see how well they hold up to the daily cleaning process that will be necessary in the food service industry and how each one affects the visual appeal of the end product. I doubt you'll make much money on this job with the amount of experimentation involved but it will set you up for success in the future when you know that your method of finishing has proven itself under very demanding daily conditions.

We all have our personal beliefs and preferences on the matter...now it's time for you to form your own.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

manufacturers are not free to make up an MSDS to their whims. the content and structure is highly regulated.
they are not permitted to omit proprietary chemicals/hazards.


there is a theory floating around here that mineral oil is hazardous to your health. 

OSHA is concerned with workplace conditions - they also regulate how much saw dust can be in the air.


the FDA has multiple approvals on it for external and internal use - and the idea that the FDA is just a bogus operation and no one should listen to them is bad information that must be challenged. 



it's cute to worry about the OPs needs. you can start by not giving him bad information.
if you don't like mineral oil, don't use mineral oil. but insisting it's unsafe because you dislike anything made from petroleum is not a valid warning.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I have had a choice of oils to use for spoons, forks and bowls. Olive oil has been my choice for woods in the kitchen.
Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil would be just fine. Not the time for any speculations in human biological chemistry.
On my planet, MSDS are legally required documents, not exercises in advertising.


Read Lehninger: _*Biochemistry*_, the chapter on Lipids.

I taught university biochemistry out of that book, in one edition or another, for 30+ years.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The MSDS is written by the chemist of the company selling the product. All they really have to do is list substances known to be hazardous. A lot of things are proprietary and they may only list the worst ingredients.


Excellent and exactly correct...!!!...Thank you...

Those "omissions" I might add have gotten quite a few "companies" in trouble over the decades. Happens all the time in industry and what they tell..."the government"...!!!...I do believe...???...Volkswagen, as a related example, had a rather poignant scandal of lying just recently, as just one example of many...

*"...With all the recent discussions around here about safety, I think that there’s one thing that all of us working chemists can agree on: MSDSs are often the next thing to useless..."* From: "On the Uselessness of the MSDS", by Derek Lowe - Chemist



TomCT2 said:


> ...there is a theory floating around here that mineral oil is hazardous to your health. ...


That's not a theory Tom...

For some folks it can be very real to various degrees...That's not open for debate or conjecture...

They can have not only a dermal reaction to it, but others as well. So can folks have such reactions to natural oils as well that I have recommended too,...I wouldn't claim otherwise...

I want you to understand that *my primary objection is to the "taste"* and yes, some of us can taste it and don't care for it at all. *I also don't like a "non eatable" material being anywhere near my food when there are good alternatives to it...*

Again, if it works for you...great!!!



TomCT2 said:


> ...manufacturers are not free to make up an MSDS to their whims. the content and structure is highly regulated. they are not permitted to omit proprietary chemicals/hazards...


Uhm...???...true...yet the MSDS is a document of minimums (written in "legalese" more than anything for the sake of liability)...not maximums...in stated information...PERIOD!

"...The Act, for all intents and purposes, is in effect at this moment. *The MSDS form was put together from existing formats published by various chemical companies*, State regulations, and associations. It was tailored to meet the needs of a specific area of industrial uses. With all its failings, it does include the main areas of concern of safety and health professionals while filling the needs of the working chemist, the end user, and above all, the industrial worker..." From:  "Development of Material Safety Data Sheets"
 by Samuel Aaron Kaplan,Division of Chemical Health and Safety

I've been privy to a few rather major issues with MSDS in my career in the pest control industry years back over Dursban and Colridane both...MSDS is not the "end all and be all" of documents by a long shot!!!



TomCT2 said:


> ...OSHA is concerned with workplace conditions - they also regulate how much saw dust can be in the air...


Absolutely...our glories "BIG GOVERNMENT" at its very best!!! (and quite ignorant in my personal view very often too...but I own that is a political bias and only hope our current administration can do something about it if allowed too!)



TomCT2 said:


> ...the FDA has multiple approvals on it for external and internal use - and the idea that the FDA is just a bogus operation and no one should listen to them is bad information that must be challenged...


See above response for the OSHA...

Is it a "bogus operation," that is a good question...Some would suggest it is...and I don't believe (bias) I would disagree with them...

However, if you actually believe everything they publish and the Pharmaceutical Industry that heavely lobbies it and our law makers than that is your choice...

*Again, there can clearly be a bias on both sides of this topic...*Believe as you wish...



TomCT2 said:


> ...it's cute to worry about the OPs needs. you can start by not giving him bad information. if you don't like mineral oil, don't use mineral oil. but insisting it's unsafe because you dislike anything made from petroleum is not a valid warning...


In all fairness Tom...you clearly like it...and I say great!!!

However, don't try to use the "fake news" line here when someone has some rather valid points contrary to your own...

Again use it...and like it, that's your choice. There are better options (a bias) out there besides...mineral oil...and many of us think so...I don't think we are wrong for such viewpoints...


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

it is fake news. it is opinion based on nothing other than OMG 'fears' and associating fiction to fact.

USA, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Sweden, Canada etc etc etc etc and the WHO don't have qualms about it.


so, it's uninformed "it comes from gasoline" vs. the entire scientific world.
good luck with that.


if you choose to avoid it, that is not a problem. when you choose to tell people it's a terrible poison because it's from gasoline refining, that's fake news.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*I call a truce...*



TomCT2 said:


> ...it is fake news. it is opinion based on nothing other than OMG 'fears' and associating fiction to fact...


*Respectfully Tom, please don't suggest others are making..."false statements"*...Especially when your clearly not reading (or understanding..???) what others are either asking about or trying to share clarification about...



TomCT2 said:


> ...so, it's uninformed "it comes from gasoline" vs. the entire scientific world ...


1. I don't respectfully believe you are qualified to speak for "the entire scientific world." Being part of that world at one time, I know you don't speak for me...

2. No body (that I know of?) in this conversation claimed it "comes from gasoline" directly. What they did state is* it is a byproduct of the gasoline and/or petroleum manufacturing process*...WHICH IT IS...so please get your facts straight...




TomCT2 said:


> ...when you choose to tell people it's a terrible poison because it's from gasoline refining, that's fake news. ...


*Again...it is from the refinement of petroleum products...which does include gasoline Tom...That's a fact and not fake news. *

You may not like it but it is nonetheless...As to being a "terrible poison" please point that out where someone wrote that specifically about...mineral oil...or dial back the vitriol responses because someone doesn't agree with you about something...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Tom,

I DIDN'T make ANY STATEMENTS that OSHA, FDA, MSDS were bad and NOT to heed to them or their advise BECAUSE THEY HAVE their good/bad and PROS/CONS AND have helped with providing better info BUT NOT necessarily ALL the facts.

I DON'T advise anyone to go against OSHA rules EVEN IF I DON'T agree with it/them. 

I DON'T say the FDA is incorrect about what they're attempting to do for health.

I ADVISE people to READ the MSDS AND other instructions.

WHAT I AM SAYING is they can perceive their info (or lack of) to their best ability for a judgement/ruling (and most are good) BUT it's a FACT some things have fallen through the cracks lately.

I'll do a combo "Dragnet" ..."just the facts mam..." and a Walter Cronkite of laying/telling the facts down (not swaying them) AND...YES, AND letting the public/viewer make their own opinion....unlike our news media today does.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Excellent and exactly correct...!!!...Thank you...
> 
> Those "omissions" I might add have gotten quite a few "companies" in trouble over the decades. Happens all the time in industry and what they tell..."the government"...!!!...I do believe...???...Volkswagen, as a related example, had a rather poignant scandal of lying just recently, as just one example of many...
> 
> ...


Interesting you picked Voltswagen as an example. Not long ago they got in a lot of trouble for developing an emission control devise for their diesel cars which would work at idle when the emission test was done but turned itself off when the car was driven. The couldn't make a device which wouldn't plug up if left on all the time. 

I can understand a company not wanting to list all the ingredients they put in a product. They spend a lot of money developing a product and to list the ingredients they might as well post a formula to make it. Myself, I only use the MSDS to find out what the product is. A lot of times you can't tell from the product description if it's water based, oil or something else. Before they had to worry so much about lawyers they used to put info like that and instructions on the can. Now there isn't room for that for hazard warnings in three languages.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

you have implied mineral old is not safe, some horrible ingredient, etc etc based entirely on the fact that is a byproduct of refining oil. 



you have presented absolutely no other evidence or suggestion that it is so terrible other than you don't think drinking gasoline or crude oil is a good idea.


you have an opinion, you're welcome to it. spreading fake/false/made up innuendo and information to people asking a simple question is not acceptable. I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't drink crude oil or gasoline either.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*LMAO...!!!...Seriously*



TomCT2 said:


> ...you have implied mineral old is not safe, some horrible ingredient, etc etc based entirely on the fact that is a byproduct of refining oil...


Fake News...No I didn't...!!!...Fact check yourself Tom...these are your projected assertions...I've been very clear, and concise with cited opinions of others as well...



TomCT2 said:


> ...you have presented absolutely no other evidence or suggestion that it is so terrible other than you don't think drinking gasoline or crude oil is a good idea. ...


Fake News...Never said it was "terrible"...those are your words...Fact check yourself Tom...



TomCT2 said:


> ...you have an opinion, you're welcome to it. spreading fake/false/made up innuendo and information to people asking a simple question is not acceptable. I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't drink crude oil or gasoline either. ...


Fake News again...

Nobody but you have suggested drinking crude oil or gasoline...So stop being obtuse...

What I did write that started this was:



Jay C. White Cloud said:


> ... *As a by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline they really have no place near food preparation surfaces in my (et al) view... *


And they don't...In my view. *So stop putting false meaning into my (et al) posts!!!*


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