# seal outdoor wood table?



## annie68164

I just built and stained a pine table for my patio. Do I need to seal it? If so, with what? Minwax clear? It's not green treated so I don't know if it will rot if I don't add a final sealant. thanks!


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## jerry

You have one of the worst woods for our door use.

Jerry


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## Trappeur

*Hi Annie,*
*I wish I could help you in your question but don't really know the proper answer. The answer that Jerry just gave you I know is what you were not looking for but surely someone will come along and see this post and make a suggestion of what to do. I do know that plain untreated will not hold up..Hopefully the table you could use elsewhere, maybe on a covered porch area or maybe somewhere in your house? If not and you keep outside, hopefully your table was not an extravagant piece that you made with many hours put into it and you could put some type of sealer, finisher on it and enjoy it with the life expectancy it will have....*
*Sorry I wasn't much help.*

*Trappeur*


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## Capt Crutch

jerry said:


> You have one of the worst woods for our door use.


Unless the pine was _yellow_, in which case it's one of the _better_ woods for outdoor use. 

Even if it _is_ white pine, it can still hold up just fine if it's finished properly. Shipbuilders used white pine for ship's masts for centuries, and many of them are still in service.

And around here, people _still_ use yellow pine for the hulls of workboats. Works just fine.

To answer your question, Annie, I would seek out a urethane or polyurethane finish containing UV (ultraviolet) blockers. Sunlight tears up the finish on exterior stuff faster than anything else, so you want something with a stout UV blocker. Akzo Nobel makes a product called Cetol for marine use which holds up very well, but it doesn't look that great. Other stuff looks better but doesn't hold up as well or as long. It's a trade-off, usually, as with most things. If it gets a lot of sunlight, you'll probably need to refinish every few years, regardless. Good luck.


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## Davet

There are a lot of people using pine for outside furniture now.
If you notice most picnic tables now have pine tops.
The thought is.. to get away from the chemical laden-ed pressure treated wood. Pressure treated also has a tendency to split as it gets older. 

I have made outdoor things made of pine and they held up pretty good if painted and if put away in the winter so it is not left to the elements.

But since you stained it:
You may heed the wisdom of Capt Crunch and go with polyurethane finish containing UV (ultraviolet) blockers or some sort of marine varnish.

If left unfinished, the pine won't last long out in the elements.


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## Gerry KIERNAN

I would be inclined to use a penetrating seal, rather than a hard surface finish, such as urethane. Most hard finishes will break down with time and exposure, which means refinishing the piece every few years.
Gerry


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## Evil Scotsman

Forgive me for Hijacking your post, but I have a question on this matter and thought it would be better to ask in an active thread. IF outdoor furniture is made of pine, (read as cheap/inexpensive, easy to work with for newbies) and is NOT just sitting out over the winter what would be your best guestimation for longevity? What would be considered an oil penatrating finish? I would like to make some outdoor furniture as my begining projects, but I want to make it from Pine, I know it won't last very long but it is "kind of" my only option right now. It would be stored outside but up on a porch with a tarp over it. ? Thanks Once Again!


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## Capt Crutch

Scotsman - If I were you, I would drive south an hour or two and find a sawmill that cuts southern loblolly pine. You can typically buy it for around 60¢/bf and it will hold up much better than white pine in exterior use. I know there are sawmills in Salisbury MD that cut it, you may even find some as far north as Dover, DE for all I know (Wikipedia claims it grows in South Jersey!)...it's also very straight, stable and strong. Also - If you tarp it, I would make sure it wasn't tarped _too_ tightly, as you want air circulation. Finally, unless you plan to use a tablecloth or whatever, I don't know how happy you're going to be with a penetrating versus a clear topcoat finish, because dirt and soot and pollen and mold and God-knows-what-else are going to build up into a funky kind of _gurve_ on the surface, eventually, and you'll have a hard time cleaning it off. With a clear topcoat, at least you can wash/rinse it with a soapy rag/brush and hose, and then eat off the table without getting grossed out...just my 2¢...


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## WDChew

Scotsman: You should be able to find cypress or white oak reasonably priced in your area. Both have high levels of tannin which makes them naturally rot resistant.

One other recommendation on finishing outdoor furniture...what ever sealer/finish you choose, put about 1/4 inch in small containers and set the legs in them for several minutes. The end grain will wick up the finish. It will do the same thing to water outside if they aren't sealed.


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## annie68164

*thanks all!*

I ended up buying a Spar marine varnish. I know pine isn't the best wood choice but I already had the table top and I ended up using pine 2x2s for legs. (the table is fairly small) It's not perfectly sturdy which is dissapointing but I basically spent less than $20 on the project and it looks like a $200 table. It's under a roofed porch so sunlight would be on it just a few hours a day. Also, I am a beginner who wants to get in plenty of "practice" before spending big money on cedar or other proper outdoor woods. My next project is a play structure for my kids that I will attempt to build next summer. That one should be a real challenge!


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## annie68164

Love WDCHEW's idea about soaking the leg ends in the finish, never thought of that but will certainly do it- excellent idea!!!!


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## Evil Scotsman

annie68164 said:


> Love WDCHEW's idea about soaking the leg ends in the finish, never thought of that but will certainly do it- excellent idea!!!!


 I agree GREAT idea, I actually saw in on HGTV or DIY maybe even a magazine. THANKS Will look for 'GOOD" wood this weekend.

Cheers


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## Evil Scotsman

Capt Crutch said:


> Scotsman - If I were you, I would drive south an hour or two and find a sawmill that cuts southern loblolly pine. You can typically buy it for around 60¢/bf and it will hold up much better than white pine in exterior use. I know there are sawmills in Salisbury MD that cut it, you may even find some as far north as Dover, DE for all I know (Wikipedia claims it grows in South Jersey!)...it's also very straight, stable and strong. Also - If you tarp it, I would make sure it wasn't tarped _too_ tightly, as you want air circulation. Finally, unless you plan to use a tablecloth or whatever, I don't know how happy you're going to be with a penetrating versus a clear topcoat finish, because dirt and soot and pollen and mold and God-knows-what-else are going to build up into a funky kind of _gurve_ on the surface, eventually, and you'll have a hard time cleaning it off. With a clear topcoat, at least you can wash/rinse it with a soapy rag/brush and hose, and then eat off the table without getting grossed out...just my 2¢...


Aye Aye Capt, thanks for the info on the loblolly pine, (never heard of it before) and even more so for the info on the penetrating vs clear coat. Wifey wouldn NOT be happy with grime embedded into the table she can't clean off :wallbash: Thanks :yes:


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## crafter1956

*This would also be a very good choice- I use it myself. http://www.minwax.com/products/oil_based_clear_protective_finishes/helmsman_spar_urethane.cfm*


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## jerry

That is probably one of the worst finishes ever put into a can.

Jerry


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## Gerry KIERNAN

jerry said:


> That is probably one of the worst finishes ever put into a can.
> 
> Jerry


Please enlighten us. What specific problems have you had?:huh:

Gerry


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## Capt Crutch

jerry said:


> You have one of the worst woods for our door use.





jerry said:


> That is probably one of the worst finishes ever put into a can.


Hey, but at least they'll match, right??? :blink: :jester: :stuart:


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## annie68164

Yes, if the finish is no good, tell us why so we know what to avoid or what consequences we'll face...


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## annie68164

Capt Crutch said:


> Hey, but at least they'll match, right??? :blink: :jester: :stuart:


Ha Ha!:laughing:


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## jerry

Polyurethane resin varnish is not what you want to use outside, it yellows quickly,begins to crack and will actually flake off. Spar varnish is a long oil varnish that was originally used on the masts of wooden ships because it was soft and would give a little before it cracked,while this may have been helpful at one time it doesn't offer a lot of protection and must be maintained yearly-atleast. Put the two together and the problems are compounded. It might be a good idea to investigate other places to find out what they think about other finishes as well.

Jerry
++++++++++++++


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## Gerry KIERNAN

jerry said:


> Polyurethane resin varnish is not what you want to use outside, it yellows quickly,begins to crack and will actually flake off. Spar varnish is a long oil varnish that was originally used on the masts of wooden ships because it was soft and would give a little before it cracked,while this may have been helpful at one time it doesn't offer a lot of protection and must be maintained yearly-atleast. Put the two together and the problems are compounded. It might be a good idea to investigate other places to find out what they think about other finishes as well.
> 
> Jerry
> ++++++++++++++


Thank you for the info Jerry. According to the input I had received, previously, polyurethane was the be all end all if you had to use a hard clear finish on an outside surface. It's good to know that maybe it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Gerry


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## scollins

I have used Deft outdoor finishes and spar varnishes from other manufacturers on outdoor swings (white oak) and doors (fiberglass). One swing is on a 10' porch and fairly well protected. All have peeled. I have had all fail within a few years. I assume that these failures have been due to UV exposure.

On the other hand I have a sette (treated pine) that I finished the base with an exterior latex and used a Minwax oil stain on the slats. It has endured several years of severe southern exposure and now resides on a western facing porch. The finish is at least 8 years old without touch up. I need to clean the slats and renew the oil stain for color, but otherwise, it is as nice as when I first build it.

If you look at anything wooden sitting on concrete or the ground, the first thing that you notice is that water is wicked up into the wood and quickly leads to decay. So the advice to use a pentrating sealer and allow it to soak up into the legs or exposed ends is right on. I have read about using diluted epoxy from something like the West epoxy system to seal/coat outdoor furniture. I may try this in the future, but I currently use epoxy to seal and stablize knots in cypress and have not had any failures to date. 

Exterior latex is now available in a 50 yr version, if you don't mind covering up your wood grain.


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## Capt Crutch

scollins said:


> So the advice to use a pentrating sealer and allow it to soak up into the legs or exposed ends is right on. I have read about using diluted epoxy from something like the West epoxy system to seal/coat outdoor furniture. I may try this in the future, but I currently use epoxy to seal and stablize knots in cypress and have not had any failures to date.


FYI, epoxy also needs to either have a UV blocker added or incorporated (West System 105 / 20* does not have one out of the can) or be topcoated with something else that does, to stand up to UV.


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## creative novice

*outdoor finish*

(note: i just realized how old this original post is....i added on to Sarah's post which evidently is just a post to link to a website ) 


i used (about 15 years ago) 
Azko's Sikken's Cetol on my pressure treated deck. it does require regular refinishing. it still looks great under the roof however, where the snow and rain get on it i have been having a hard time keeping the new coats on it, they peel and no matter how hard i try to keep a good coat on it , the cracks when wet appear black and i realize how much the product/wood are not protecting. Whatever finish you use, i would try to do at least three things : 

1. make sure the legs are not touching the ground...set it on bricks and super seal the legs, esp the end grains. 
2. make sure it is really dry before you coat, making sure there is no mildew present (tsp detergent works well, will make it wet, then it will have to dry)
3: try to cover it during poor weather periods to keep it dry, out of the snow and rain, making sure when you cover it you are not keeping it wet....cover it and un-cover it. try to take it inside in the winter. 
now, just wait until someone answers the question of WHAT product to use!


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## Vin55

Just finished two cedar tables for my patio. Going to use a Marine Spar Varnish for the finish, but I didn't think about the wick effect when they sit on the patio. Guess I'm going to soak the legs in a sealer before I finish them.


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## the miz

annie68164 said:


> I just built and stained a pine table for my patio. Do I need to seal it? If so, with what? Minwax clear? It's not green treated so I don't know if it will rot if I don't add a final sealant. thanks!



You want to seal it with either a marine varnish or deck stain. There are also some very tough and long lasting catalyzed finishes that weather very nice. I used Sikkens deck stain on a mahogany picnic table and it was outside for more than a year in Ohio and it still looks it did when I made it. You can get that at a paint store Like CPI os SherWill.


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## the miz

creative novice said:


> (note: i just realized how old this original post is....i added on to Sarah's post which evidently is just a post to link to a website )
> 
> 
> i used (about 15 years ago)
> Azko's Sikken's Cetol on my pressure treated deck. it does require regular refinishing. it still looks great under the roof however, where the snow and rain get on it i have been having a hard time keeping the new coats on it, they peel and no matter how hard i try to keep a good coat on it , the cracks when wet appear black and i realize how much the product/wood are not protecting. Whatever finish you use, i would try to do at least three things :
> 
> 1. make sure the legs are not touching the ground...set it on bricks and super seal the legs, esp the end grains.
> 2. make sure it is really dry before you coat, making sure there is no mildew present (tsp detergent works well, will make it wet, then it will have to dry)
> 3: try to cover it during poor weather periods to keep it dry, out of the snow and rain, making sure when you cover it you are not keeping it wet....cover it and un-cover it. try to take it inside in the winter.
> now, just wait until someone answers the question of WHAT product to use!


Sikkens is great stuff isn't it?:thumbsup:


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## the miz

annie68164 said:


> Love WDCHEW's idea about soaking the leg ends in the finish, never thought of that but will certainly do it- excellent idea!!!!



you can also soak in water proof glue (Titebond or the like). this helps to prevent the ends from checking and seals them too. Polyurethane glue (like Gorilla glue) is waterproof also.


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## creative novice

*sikkens...*



the miz said:


> Sikkens is great stuff isn't it?:thumbsup:


 
it has been my experience that sikkens is great, looks fantastic...at first ...but i have been having difficulty once it "goes bad".....it cracks, has tendency to peel with additional coats.....then, i have problem of remained nice areas vs gone bad areas...trying to get bad areas to again look as nice as the good ones. sikkens also requires numerous start coats...and yearly recoats here in pennsylvania


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## Rick Mosher

I have used Sikkens Cetol on many very high end commercial jobs. Many in direct sunlight and in the high UV altitudes of Lake Tahoe and have NEVER seen cetol peel. The only way I can see that happening was if there was contamination on the door before re-coating. I have seen doors that were sprayed with D-Dur ( a 2 part exterior urethane) have the finish fail due to sun exposure and when re-done with the Cetol they have held up for years. (Only light fading which is easily corrected with a fresh coat). There is also an excellent company that makes products for yachts. http://www.epifanes.com/home.htm
I really like their PP varnish but it is VERY EXPENSIVE!


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## creative novice

*sikkens cetol peeling*

yes, on my deck (pressure treated and under roof, gets weather from the deck ends and sides) it has failed and further under the deck it peels... i went back to the distributor and he had checked with the rep...no solution found. i did everything as they recm'd. So, i still have my dilema...what do u use after sikkens no longer looks nice? oh, by the way...i used sikkens as the first coats after we built it, (october) ...dried through the winter and then i washed it in spring, dried well and then did the multi-coats....and continued to do recoats every two years. sanded, cleaned...did all that


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## bzbatl

Julie's 19-month old granddaughter is watching Yo Gabba Gabba!

I'm about to use a urethane product from Minwax that is labeled for "outdoor use". The piece has already been stained with a deck stain from Cabot, I believe. I just want a wet look to it, so we'll see how this urethane holds up. Supposedly has a UV blocker in it.


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## Rich Aldrich

creative novice said:


> yes, on my deck (pressure treated and under roof, gets weather from the deck ends and sides) it has failed and further under the deck it peels... i went back to the distributor and he had checked with the rep...no solution found. i did everything as they recm'd. So, i still have my dilema...what do u use after sikkens no longer looks nice? oh, by the way...i used sikkens as the first coats after we built it, (october) ...dried through the winter and then i washed it in spring, dried well and then did the multi-coats....and continued to do recoats every two years. sanded, cleaned...did all that


We used Sikkens on our deck but we let the deck sit unfinished for a year before we coated it. We have not had any peeling. The first coat was put on in 2004 and just put a second coat on last year. 

On a previous deck, we used Olymic stain which peeled like crazy. We had put the stain on after about 2 months. Pressure treated lumber needs to dry out good before you apply any type of finish.


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## jerry

The so called UV protection is used up starting with the first exposur. The average life span of the minerals used is six months to as much as one year. You will certainly see some change in any polyurethane varnish in that time frame.

Jerry
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## cabinetman

It's probably too late to make any difference, but I would just use a plain oil. I would prefer to use pure Tung oil, but BLO will suffice. It's a type of finish that is very easy to maintain. No cracking or crusting, or sanding to do. It may not have the UV blockers, but an oil finish will provide a finish that will look good way longer than any film finish. Completely sealing the wood will prohibit the natural "breathing" so-to-speak that wood does. There is a greater probability of surface deterioration if a film finish is used. Wood will always draw water vapor no matter how well you think you've sealed it. Even if it was soaked by submerging, the wood will expand and contract even to temperature changes. So, coinsider what happens to a film finish when that occurs.

An oiled piece may only need a re-oiling 2-3 times a year if that. That maintenance is much easier than sanding down a varnish of any sort. An oiled finish won't give any degree of impact or scratch protection. If that is paramount, put a piece of glass on the top.


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## creative novice

*PT Lumber drying*

like i said, my deck was built in october....sikkens'd it in june or july after the winter and spring drying/rains/drying..... it doesn't peel everywhere, just a few spots (and some of those are in protected areas too) ......and where it gets the weather. the parts i repaired i sanded down to bare wood and recoated ...those areas have peeled.....going to be an ongoing issue i think. and more than likely i'll use sikens again too.


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## the tinker

creative novice said:


> like i said, my deck was built in october....sikkens'd it in june or july after the winter and spring drying/rains/drying..... it doesn't peel everywhere, just a few spots (and some of those are in protected areas too) ......and where it gets the weather. the parts i repaired i sanded down to bare wood and recoated ...those areas have peeled.....going to be an ongoing issue i think. and more than likely i'll use sikens again too.



I'm new here an felt that this topic was a good place to start. Any wood product used in an outdoor setting has to endure seasonal changes. The wood is going to expand and contract as the weather changes. It will also have to endure daily exposure to the cycles of day and night.

We will never be able to stop the expansion and contraction of outside wood decks and furniture. But we can control it sort of. Since we are from different seasonal areas I can only give generalized advise. 

A deep soaking sealer is a good starting point. Once it is on wiping the excess off to get a even coat should be done. This should be done with all coats.

Most outdoor sealers will have some UV protection on its label. But the clear sealers do not hold up as long not because it is poor in quality but because the pigments in colored stains sealer also help in protecting the wood. That said a good general rule of thumb is re-coating for clear sealers 1 to 2 years, pigmented sealers 2 to 3 years.

To creative novice,
I think the best way to help solve your spotting is to wait until august or september will let the deck dry out all summer, work on it on a day where you don't reach the dew point during the night before. Once sanded and feathered out use a sanding sealer before the sealer, the sanding sealer will stick to the wood, next the sealer then should be worked into the area by hand, then a finial coat applied.

The tinker


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## creative novice

*your help*

thanx AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!....that said, i never used a sanding sealer on the deck.....as for towards end of summer/dew......thats a tough one! if memory is right i think we had a ton of dew the entire summer last year!!! so, based on that....i know the wood will soak up some moisture from the humidity, however; will it help to cover the areas overnights? or will that just be a help and not enough to go ahead and seal? The past few years i have come to the conclusion the best time around here is late april and may if we don't get rain...because it has been a trend to have alot of rain in late may and june. Or do u think "drying" time needs to be months? julie


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## the tinker

Thanks for the welcome,

Sorry for the sanding sealer remark, the product you use for the topcoat should be thinned down to a sanding sealer consistancy, about 50/50 should do it. Enough to soak into and almost disappear.

Your deck was built right before the holidays. Which does not help in the seasoning of the wood, or cure time. Whether your wood is 5/4 or 1 1/2" thick deck wood it still needed 1 month per 1/4" of thickness to cure properly before its first sealer was applied. (winter is not conductive to curing) Spotting happens when wood moisture is trying to equalize itself. You stated that the spots even showed up in protected areas. I would have to guess that it is in areas near knots and and where the wood had wind checks where sap would be the heaviest.

End of summer is a good time to reseal in my area but may not be good in your area. But the later you can do it the better it will stick. Monitoring the weather for a week before you start is a good bet. Placing cloth drops over the areas at night will stop dew. I would stay away from plastic, it only promotes moisture.

Here in bonny doon, CA We only have 3 seasons winter rains, sunny spring, and foggy summer/fall. 

Joe


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## Dean Miller

annie68164 said:


> Love WDCHEW's idea about soaking the leg ends in the finish, never thought of that but will certainly do it- excellent idea!!!!


 
I second that. Just finished several redwood loveseats. Gonna be soaking some legs. Dean


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## annie68164

FYI- last summer I sanded the table, stained with minwax then finished with 2 coats of marine spar finish. It came out fabulous. Well I admit the table has been left out all winter (in Iowa no less!) so it has peeled some and looks terrible. I will be refinishing this spring with something else. The fact is I will probably just need to put the table in a shed in the winter also. So just want others to know what did NOT work. I may have done something incorrectly also so keep that in mind.


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## annie68164

LOVE Tung Oil! been rubbing that stuff all over my furniture lately. I didn't realize how dry the wood was getting until I put a couple coats of the oil on- what a difference. I think the type I have has some polyurethane in it because it seems to seal the furniture just a tad after 2 coats. Do you think it would work on a heavily used dining room table? I need to refinish the surface of mine. Just wonder how water-resistant tung oil is.


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## jerry

annie68164 said:


> LOVE Tung Oil! been rubbing that stuff all over my furniture lately. I didn't realize how dry the wood was getting until I put a couple coats of the oil on- what a difference. I think the type I have has some polyurethane in it because it seems to seal the furniture just a tad after 2 coats. Do you think it would work on a heavily used dining room table? I need to refinish the surface of mine. Just wonder how water-resistant tung oil is.


What exactly is the name of the product you are using and who makes it ?.

Regards
Jerry
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