# Interior Columns and Crown Moulding



## nblumert (Oct 15, 2008)

I have a lady and her hustband that tried to install some interior columns in their living room. They got stuck when the got to the moulding at the ceiling. The moulding is crown, and then down from that it is a flat moulding. They already cut the column to be flush with the bottom of the flat moulding. Well now they want the column cap put on, and then the cap extended up to the ceiling with a box. What are your suggestions besides a multimaster to cut through the crown and the moulding to get a straight cut up to the ceiling?
Nick


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nick, saw your post and went WoW!*

I don't do any crown, so I'm curious as how this will be resolved. My thoughts are:
1. How will it best be done, easiest, cleanest, and the least amount of gaps. 
2. What will look the best?
3. I wouldn't cut into the existing crown, but instead make a pattern for it and make my termination a "butt up" fit that I could make fairly precisely. If anything other than a flat sided box, some coping will be required, if the termination has any crown moldings.
4. I'm glad you're doin' this not me! I do like a challenge however, and 
this seems like a good one.
 bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Bill has the right idea. Basically, I would just fit whatever I'm adding to the existing moulding.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Nick,
I think I would go the multimaster route. Go get the dremel version for 89.00 and a few extra blades. Build your box first to determine the size and where it is going to hit the existing crown. The MM's do a pretty good job. You can get a nice straight cut if you have a steady hand. Make a shallow cut first with the blade on a slight angle to the wood. It will run right down the line. Then go back and nibble away at the groove you just created. Since the whole thing is getting painted, if you run off a little, caulk will take care of that.
I have to admit I got a good laugh at the first picture with the columns stopping where they did. I have to give the homeowners credit for trying.
Mike Hawkins


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## Shamus (Aug 22, 2008)

As mentioned, butt cut the pcs and cope them out. Be sure to back-cut as you cope a couple degrees so any sanding to fit will be easier.
Once you have the sides fit then assemble the box. Tack it first and do several dry fits. Patience goes a long way here.

Also, once you have the first pc fit I'd check it against the second pillar. You might get lucky and have a template for the second one. :thumbsup:


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## nblumert (Oct 15, 2008)

I was afraid you guys were going to say to leave the moulding alone, and just cut a piece to fit it. There are a ton of different profiles that I would need to cut. If I did it this way, I wouldn't know where to start.
Nick


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Have you made a splash template?*

I've posted this before, but you rough cut a 1/2" plywood template to "generally" fit the surfaces, apply a 2" wide piece of painters tape to the area under the template, dab on a slurry of bondo onto your template and the surface, then hold it steady until the bondo sets up. It will accurately duplicate every profile of the existing surface and if there are small voids they can be filled in another step. The edges will be "cobby" but a pass witha disc sander or belt sander will take it back down to the plywood. You can then use this template to check the other 4 places where the termination will butt. If you're lucky it will be very close. If not just make another splash or squeeze template. Card board template first, then plywood with a jig saw or bandsaw and that's all the high tech tools you'll need! :yes: bill


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I think the idea of making the ceiling termination look like the floor termination is the best. I think that firehawk and shamus have described the easiset method.

G


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Be thankful it's all painted, and not stained. :yes: :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*??? George*



GeorgeC said:


> I think the idea of making the ceiling termination look like the floor termination is the best. I think that firehawk and shamus have described the *easiset* method....
> 
> Method(s).... they are completely different approaches. One cuts away
> the existing crown, mike's, and the other, shamus is what I suggested, butt the termination to the existing crown. Cutting away the existing crown would scare me if anything went wrong, like cutting away too much or if in the future the columns went away for some reason... JMO :blink: bill


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## falbergsawco (Nov 25, 2009)

That looks like the perfect place to put a decorative plinth.


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## Al B Cuttn Wud (Oct 14, 2007)

If it were my, I'd bite the bullet and take down the crown. Then make the top cap match the bottom to butt up to the ceiling. From there, reinstall the crown. Much easier to butt up the 90 degree cuts now. Probably the most time consuming route, but will ultimately be the neatest. 

I haven't used the tool Firehawk recommends but sounds much easier. than removing the molding. My dad always told me the difference between a good carpenter and the average Joe was that the average Joe used 1/2" caulk and a good carpenter only needed to use 1/4" caulk...ha. 

Please send some pic and feedback on the method you go with.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Al,
Taking down the crown was going to be my second suggestion. Drywall is easy enough to fix. Sometimes the easiest way is to not shortcut. Although if I had to do this job, I would probably go with my first idea. It looks like the room was either freshly painted or close to it. Once the new box and cap were cut in, then it would be easy enough to cut and cope a few pieces of crown and the base molding below it. Unless this were for a friend, I wouldn't do this job cheap.
Mike Hawkins


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

IMHO Do not take that crown down, worst thing you could do. :thumbdown:
I totally agree with scribing the sides into it. you can use, thick cardboard, Luan ply, to make a template, once done just make the boxes and slide em in place. This is NOT going to be fast,easy,pleasant,or non stressful :no: However is doable. this is just a personal note: IF you are NOT going to get a gazillion times your normal amount of money, gracefully decline their wonderful offer of indentured slavery :yes::yes: 
Also if I were to make these I wood make the bottom pcs with a half round cutout to slip over the columns and hide the tops and make easy fitting DO NOT cut the columns either.

Just to make it clear I am not being a SOB or negative here is my hard learned logic: 
Presuming you agree to do this, you bust your butt for days and days, you have cut back the crown, trimmed the top of that column and done your absolute best.
THEY decide it is NOT good enuf and tell you to tear it out. WELL HELLO "hey you wrecked our crown, Oh LOOK you cut our columns !!!!!!!!!!!!! " WE dont like that NOW YOU GET TO COMPLETELY REDO THEIR ROOM FOR FREE,REPAINT IT FOR FREE, AND OH HMMMMM NOPE DONT LIKE THAT EITHER DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN
What ever you do if you take this job, make 1000% sure that it will not change the way it looks before you started, if you have to take it all out!!!!!! TAKE PICTURES,GET A SIGNED PROPOSAL FOR ANYTHING YOU DO, CYA


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## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

skymaster said:


> Just to make it clear I am not being a SOB or negative here is my hard learned logic:
> Presuming you agree to do this, you bust your butt for days and days, you have cut back the crown, trimmed the top of that column and done your absolute best.
> THEY decide it is NOT good enuf and tell you to tear it out. WELL HELLO "hey you wrecked our crown.
> What ever you do if you take this job, make 1000% sure that it will not change the way it looks before you started, if you have to take it all out!!!!!! TAKE PICTURES,GET A SIGNED PROPOSAL FOR ANYTHING YOU DO, CYA


Exactly because of this scenerio I would take down the crown and build up the boxes around the top, easily reinstall the crown (assuming there isn't a mile of caulk to remove) and be done with it...:laughing:


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## txtoolman (Nov 16, 2009)

I agree with Joesdad. Having installed crown and built columns it seems that anything less than removing the crown and building the boxes and wrapping the crown around the box wouldn't satisfy the look of the home. The home owner is already in a bind and should be understanding toward a solution that would give them the finished look that they want. Skymaster also has a good point that communication is important and a written contract would be in your best interest.


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## nblumert (Oct 15, 2008)

From everyones suggestions, I guess I really have to see if it is worth the headaches and all of the time to do it. 
Nick


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nick, R U confused yet?*

There seem to be 3 solutions posted here:
1. butt the new termination to the existing crown
2. remove the crown between the terminations.
3.remove the crown and start from scratch.
And a variation or suggestion, wrap the crown around the termination.

You can be the judge of which way is easiest for you, but if it were me and I like a challenge as much as anyone, I'd use no. 1., make a template and butt them to the existing crown. Hey, a dollar is a dollar these days, go for it....we'll all be here to watch...and help? :laughing: bill


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## nblumert (Oct 15, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> There seem to be 3 solutions posted here:
> 1. butt the new termination to the existing crown
> 2. remove the crown between the terminations.
> 3.remove the crown and start from scratch.
> ...


 I know what you mean by " a dollar is a dollar," it's difficult enough to get a job that pays. I will most likely use option number 1, just for the simple fact that if I mess up the crown when cutting it off the wall, it would be awful to fix. 
Do you have any pictures of the bondo trick you posted about?


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

NB; been lookin at those pics a bit: Do you think you can figure out how that buildup crown was done? Looks to me to be standard crown on a flat pc and underneath Norman chair rail.

Lets presume you can replicate that; THEN make up a section long enuf to use for a pattern, set the sides of the boxes vertically, butt the pattern to the respective sides, mark em, jigsaw em, touch em up till fits nice, then from the coped ends work out, to dimensions of the boxes, make a rabbitt for the bottom pc, install nailers inside the top of the sides, attach to ceiling, however you need, then slip bottom pc in place glue and brad the puppy, some filler and paint wallah! U iz done. EZ Pc of pizza. No problems Mate! days work and 5000 dollars later u gone hoime LOL LOL:yes::smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*No pictures as yet but...*

I will try to make a set up and take some for ya.  bill



nblumert said:


> I know what you mean by " a dollar is a dollar," it's difficult enough to get a job that pays. I will most likely use option number 1, just for the simple fact that if I mess up the crown when cutting it off the wall, it would be awful to fix.
> Do you have any pictures of the bondo trick you posted about?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Bondo Trick Photos*

This will take a few photos to show step by step, but here goes: 
1. make a rough template of the crown in some thin plywood or hardboard say 1/4", getting enough of the general shapes to within 1/4" or 1/8" is better.
2. The silver gizmo is a "formagage" generic name. We used them at the Design Studios to duplicate shapes in clay or wood. Not necessary, but handy. 
3. Mix up the bondo a little stiff and *tape the area *on the crown to be duplicated so the bondo won't stick to it. Then gob on the stuff making certain it fills all the voids then strike it off to remove the surplus.
4. Hold, tape or fasten the template in place until the bondo sets.
5. While it's still soft cut away the excess with a sharp utility knife.
6. Sand it down to the template surface and you'll have the most accurate template you can get.  bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*More pix*

Photos:


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## nblumert (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh wow. Looks great. I really appreciate the help. If I can't do it now, I would just be an idiot. 
Nick


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

WoodnThings,

Good method, and excellent presentation. Amazing the time and effort you and other forum members are willing to give.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nobody's asked about the crown???*

LIke: What wood is that? Great color! Is it stain? 
OK. I'll tell ya. It's 3/4" oak ply, with a Hi Glo or Hi Vis spray marker in red, rubbed off or in depending..... I'm thinking of using it on a humpback chest I'm making. The original was flame box elder, I think and there wasn't enough "flame" to suit me. So that's what I'm thinkin' about using. I've got a camera full of pictures to post. Later, :yes: bill
BTW Old Skhool, where did you teach HS wood class? I remember my HS teacher, Mr Burns. His favorite exclamation was "Good God, Man don't do that!" Great memories! I taught "materials and design" for a few years at the University of Illinois, Dept of Fine Art, myself. Probably shows in my posts.....:laughing:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

WTG Bill, you came through again.:yes: That's a good method, similar to reproducing moulding with plaster. One thing to add is to coat the fitted edge of the crown with a release agent so when the bondo is separated it won't stick or chunk off. Another thought is to get a good perpendicular position to the crown (if the added moulding will be) and be able to hold the template in place during this process.

Or, if the crown is a standard type, purchase a short length to use as a coping pattern.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Hey, Thanks C-man*

I did say tape the area, but I should have said to use painter's tape. I also should have included a pencil compass and instructions how to how to use the compass held horizontally to scribe a cut line on the template transferred from the crown. The Formagage is handy for transferring the lines, but not everyone will have one. But they will have a pencil compass. The old school wood model makers could make precision templates from the clay surfaces using only a compass, file and a bandsaw. We often had to duplicate the master side of a design to the "off" side and back and forth a zillion times. My job was not to make the templates, but to "sculpt" the clay back into the original forms from the templates. That's when I wasn't doin' some free form design for a rookie car designer who had 47" dia wheels on the thing and a slit you could look out of for a windshield...:thumbdown: Well, it looks good in the sketch ...yah, right! :blink: bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Makin' a template*

For those who may want to try this and who never have, here's how I duplicate a profile with a pencil compass and a band saw or scroll saw.
1. mark the general waste to be removed, and cut it off
2. Set the compass to a point beyond the marked line.
3. Holding the pencil compass horizontal and parallel to the ground, scribe the profile on the template using a visible pencil, silver metallic, in this case shows up well.
4. Cut to the line, and file or sand up to it if NOT making a bondo template. This step will have to be repeated several times to get it perfect.
Give it a try on something ,before you use it on a project, for practice.
 bill


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> LIke: What wood is that? Great color! Is it stain?
> OK. I'll tell ya. It's 3/4" oak ply, with a Hi Glo or Hi Vis spray marker in red, rubbed off or in depending..... I'm thinking of using it on a humpback chest I'm making. The original was flame box elder, I think and there wasn't enough "flame" to suit me. So that's what I'm thinkin' about using. I've got a camera full of pictures to post. Later, :yes: bill
> *BTW Old Skhool, where did you teach HS wood class? I remember my HS teacher, Mr Burns. His favorite exclamation was "Good God, Man don't do that!" Great memories! I taught "materials and design" for a few years at the University of Illinois, Dept of Fine Art, myself.* Probably shows in my posts.....:laughing:


I taught in a smaller town in Southern California between Riverside and Palm Springs. We did a wide variety of projects, from smaller things like cutting boards and band saw boxes to gun cabinets, roll top desks, cabinets... After 17 years they shut down our entire department because of budget problems, and I ended up teaching math and now Home/Hospital. Some of the equipment ended up in the districts maintenance shop, and a good portion just seemed to disappear. 

Good thing though, ROP came in and we now have a cabinetmaking class, auto, and 1 or 2 periods of drafting. ROP classes are 2 periods long and have between 12 and 20 students and are funded by the county. (My largest single period class was 38)


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