# Tool sharpening



## SeanStuart (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi. I am looking for a faster way to sharpen gouges, chisels and knives. I currently hand sharpen with stones and sandpaper. I am getting pretty good with that, but it is time consuming. 

I am considering the Tormek 8 or 10 inch sharpener. not cheap, but looks like it will do the job, and last a lifetime. 

My question about that tool, is will it sharpen to a very fine edge, or will I still have to finish the tools with sandpaper? My other question is, are any of the other wet stone slow grinders as good? 

Thanks!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A seldom mentioned technique ...*

Using a buffing wheel charged with a fine abrasive will polish the edge so that it's very sharp. What I noticed it that it's a hard MDF wheel, not a typical cotton sewn wheel which will round the edge, not sharpen it.






https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-8-Razor-Sharp-Edgemaking-System/G5937


Other choices;
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=buffing+wheel+tool+sharpening


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

SeanStuart said:


> Hi. I am looking for a faster way to sharpen gouges, chisels and knives. I currently hand sharpen with stones and sandpaper. I am getting pretty good with that, but it is time consuming.
> 
> I am considering the Tormek 8 or 10 inch sharpener. not cheap, but looks like it will do the job, and last a lifetime.
> 
> ...


I once considered getting something like that but I don't know if it would speed things up. Sharpening is a process of polishing an edge on the tools so with a unit like that you would constantly be changing wheels from finer and finer wheels. Then different shapes would be needed to take the place of a slip stone so you would need quite a number of wheels to do the job. 

I think a device like that would be fine for common carpenters chisels where they just need to be sharp and not razor sharp like what is needed for woodcarving. Myself I will continue to hone chisels by hand. Perhaps if I were to see a machine in operation I might change my mind but I doubt if that will ever happen.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

How many hours per day does your sharpening and honing process require?
I'm honing, freehand, a few licks every 30-45 minutes of carving.
If I have to deal with real damage and abuse, that will take far longer.
I was taught freehand. I do well at it with a lot of decades of practice.


Honestly, if I ever felt that I had enough physical challenges, 

I'd buy a machine like a TomZ.
But, all machines are useless to sharpen adzes and crooked knives.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Tormek is the gold standard, but very expensive. Everything about it is top quality, including durability. If you buy a Tormek, get the T-8. The T-4 has a smaller diameter. It probably makes no difference, but I would prefer the larger diameter, considering the hollow grind.

I did not want to spend the money on a Tormek, so I bought this Grizzly instead:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-Wet-Grinder-Kit-Anniversary-Edition/T10010ANV

I bought Tormek jigs to use on it and they work well together. I bought them separately, but here is a kit that has what I bought:
https://www.rockler.com/tormek-woodturner-s-accessory-kit-tnt-708

In addition, I also use the following:
SVS-38 (for the roughing gouge)
TT-50
https://www.rockler.com/short-tool-jig-svs-38-for-tormek-sharpening-systems
https://www.rockler.com/diamond-stone-truing-tool-tt-50-for-tormek-sharpening-systems

The Grizzly stone dishes, but the TT-50 flattens it well. When the stone wears out, I will probably replace it with a genuine Tormek stone.

Results are very sharp. Sharp enough that I am not concerned to use the newly sharpened HSS gouges on pen blanks where people say that they could only get the carbide scrapers to work. Those acrylester blanks are like turning cinder block, but the freshly sharpened HSS gouges and skew gave no problems.

Those wet grinders are quick and easy, which makes it so convenient to re-sharpen while turning.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

I have used a Tormek T-7 for about ten years.

It’s main advantages are jigs that provide precise control over the sharpening process, whether you are sharpening chisels, plane blades, scissors, knives, axes, turning tools, carving tools and plenty more. With the jigs you can write down your settings and get exact repeatability.

The Tormek really won’t save you time over other sharpening methods, I don’t consider speed one of its advantages. I’ve seen craftsmen get really fine edges in a short time using a variety of methods.

I use the Tormek only periodically for sharpening my tools, most the time I touch up my tools with wet stones, using the Tormek when the hollow ground is gone or when they get really screwed up. I do use the leather stropping wheels to do a quick touch up of the edge.

Hollow grinding is considered desirable by some in that it saves time when you flat hone since you only hone the top of the bevel and the cutting edge, you don’t have to sharpen the entire bevel.

The Tormek does ok getting a working edge on a tool. You can mount up to three different leather stropping wheels for final polishing and touching up of your edge. If that doesn’t cut it, you can get the Japanese water stone. That will polish your edge to a 
mirror finish.




In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## RickKr (Jun 19, 2018)

Sean,

The Tormek is an excellent sharpening system, and as commented it is expensive, but in my opinion, worth it. I have had a T8 for about a year and a half. I have nearly all the jigs and have used them all, except the planer blade jig (I will, but my planer blades haven't dulled yet). I don't do wood turning, but I've sharpened turning tools for a friend. It works extremely well for the kind of sharpening you describe, as well as a plethora of other edge tools. I got mine initially for sharpening drill bits, which it does fantastically, much better than any other sharpening system I've used and I've used professional machines for it. 

There is a user forum (of course) where you could learn a lot more. It is capable of putting as fine an edge as you care to, with the right stones and polishing compounds. I've sharpened knives to almost as sharp as a double-edged razor. 

BTW, these wet grinder systems CAN be used to sharpen curved edges, with the right jigs and methods.

Knife Grinders is a commercial knife sharpening business in Australia and is one of the top experts. He sharpens convex and concave and recurved edged tools regularly. Be sure to watch some of his videos (links at the bottoms of these pages, and others on his site). I have not found where anyone is sharpening adzes, however. 

Rick


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I assemble and sharpen my wood carving adzes. I use a tennis ball as a mandrel.
My edges are "carving sharp" for clean cuts in soft conifer woods (red & yellow cedars).
I buy the blades from Kestrel Tool in the Pacific Northwest and do all the wood work myself.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

SeanStuart said:


> ..I am looking for a faster way to sharpen gouges, chisels and knives...I am considering the Tormek 8 or 10 inch sharpener...My question about that tool, is will it sharpen to a very fine edge, or will I still have to finish the tools with sandpaper? My other question is, are any of the other wet stone slow grinders as good


Hi Sean,

As you can see, there full range of perspectives on "sharpening systems" that cover a spectrum of methods (and understanding.) Sharpening and honing methods are strongly held by those that practice them, with each having (often) very strong opinions about a given system. Bottom line is whether a tool gets sharp enough to do the work needed efficiently...

My world tends to revolve around being near the "sharpening station" at least an hour or more (collectively) each and every day that I am working with wood...Today was no exception as I had to restore several very old incannal pattern chisels. Then sharpen and hone several "Tea House Scribing Gouge Chisels (外丸鑿 -Soto maru nomi) a clapboard slick with incanal full rondel bevel, a Japanese Paring chisel, gouge chisels of several kind, and a full range of plane blades...and our timber framing chisels as well...PLUS...several stone carving chisels as well...!!!...Tomorrow will be similar...

We..."owned"...a Tormek and another brand of "wet system" and *the Tormek was gotten rid of* and the old "wet system" will be repurposed soon for something (?) not sure what yet...Not because they are bad, but because *they just don't work fast enough compared to other powered systems...
*

As you know (or are learning) hand sharpening and honing is quite time consuming to say the least. With practice speed is increased. I had to do a fare amount of it today because certain type of tools demand it. For this I use large diamond plates (4"x10") various ceramic rods and files, different grits of sand paper/Emory cloth/diamond cloth on wood forms made to fit the tool's geometry, and a full range of Japanese water stones and slips both flat and hand shaped to fit tool geometry ranging from 197µ down to 0.1µ and then honing compounds that run from 0.5µ to 0.1µ.

For the "meat and potato" of the work (90% of it) I need to take a chisel (flat or gouge) form a state of "getting dull" to "shaving sharp" (note: shaving sharp is a spectrum...not an absolute) in less than a minute, and (like today) if tools get chipped...!!!:vs_OMG:...I have to "joint" the edge and get in back into the game in under 5 to 10 minutes...or less.

I have used and/or owned most of the systems out there (including Tormek.) What I am currently using (last 10 years) the most *(*and like the most)* is the Work Sharp system of tools with the wide blade attachment. I own several of them and all the glass plates, DMT diamond plates (25µ and 9µ) fitted to them, and then auto body 3M grits from 127µ to 6µ, etc working in concert with 6" and 8" grinders fitted profiled grit stones, with Lee Valley Medium and Hard weight felt honing wheels (various geometries) for specialty sharpening. For knives its a mixed bag, of stones, belts and ceramic rods do the most work...

*Standard practice during the day for most work...127µ primary bevel of 20°...25µ working bevel at 25°...followed by 9µ bevel at 25°...hone to 0.5µ at 30°...done in under 60 seconds usually...This will shave hair, gives an excellent working edge that is durable and only needs a few honings till the next day...
*

If any of this is helpful...great! If you need me to expand on something, just let me know?

Good Luck!

j


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Nobody talks about it. The fastest way to sharpen a wood working edge is to examine it under a very bright light.
Figure out what is the minimum that needs to be done. Use your judgement = how bad is it?
Waste your time doing a whole lot of otherwise un necessary abrasive work for nothing.


I need a 10X magnifier and a nice LED light to have a good look. The regular 8-10 watt LED lights are just fine.
I'll tell you in 10 seconds which grit to start with. Learn that part. Big time saver.


Step 2, don't go up into a bazillion grits, believing the edge will be better.
Rubbish. And those fine stones don't come cheap.

Look at all the electron microscope pictures of edges in Leonard Lee's book.
That's fact, not opinion. Just facts. 

1,500 is the end. Hone that with CrOx/AlOx and you are good to go.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Brian T, please describe/photo of the tennis ball method you are describing...just curious. And where/how is it applied to your sharpening.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

There are 3 adzes in my avatar ( soon to be 4). The blue one is a Stubai 7/75 carver's adze that I bought second-hand.
The D adze and the elbow adze both have blades from Kestrel Tool. I did the wood from Kestrel patterns.
The bevels on every one of them is on the inside, not the outside.



To sharpen these things, the blade must be stationary and the abrasive moves.
Next puzzle was to find a short mandrel as you can see the working space is quite confined.
Of course, I could cut all the whipping, sharpen and hone the blade and rebuild the tool.
I don't feel like it.
I bought a can of cheap tennis balls. I wrap 1/4 sheets of 3M sandpapers around one of them.
Yes it wrinkles badly and crumples but that does not appear to matter at all.
Next, I scrubbed a lot of CrOx/AlOx into the fuzz on another ball to be my strop with honing compound.
The tennis balls match the Stubai 7/75 (at least that is the sweep & size, quoted from Stubai).
They rub quite a % of the Kestrel blades. Of course, I monitor that with scribbles with a black felt marker on the steel.
Wear heavy leather gloves. Clumsy but better than risking serious finger damage.
Hope that helps.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Brian T, How is the mandrel attached, the tennis balls I've seen are hollow.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I just hold them in my hand and sweep them out and across the bevel with a wrist action.
The back side gets a few wipes but no serious abrasive work ever.

So far, I have not done any serious damage to any of the edges. Clean wood is clean living, I guess!
I would not hesitate to cut a blade off (dry hafted) if there was big work to be done.
The tarred cord comes on 1,000'+ spools for about $10.00 each.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Brian T, I misunderstood. I thought you somehow attached the ball to a mandrill to attach to a drill. I understand now. Is CrOx/AlOx the green wax stick...used for lapping? Or is that something different?


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

The CrOx/AlOx compound stick is what I use for the final honing stage.
The wax wrecked a good leather strop by softening it.
Now, I use any old sort of box card/file folder and scribble the honing compound all over it.
No, it does not need to be uniform. No, slight lumpiness has no effect. No, no need to glue it down.

Maybe other people will claim differently.



I do have strops made up with denim cloth and straight AlOx but they don't do Pac NW tools at all.
I know the tennis ball idea sounds stupid but I can't think of another shape to do the adze blades.
They do work rather well for my needs. 

I use dowels, old chainsaw files and pieces of pipe as mandrels to freehand sharpen and hone the crooked knives.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...don't go up into a bazillion grits, believing the edge will be better.
> Rubbish. And those fine stones don't come cheap...


Hi Brian,

We seem to have very similar philosophies to grits in the "day to day" applications of sharpening...:laugh2:

For the brunt of work I do..."day to day"...its just a primary bevel angle (which can very depending on wood and tool) set @ 197µ ...then the secondary bevels at 25µ...6µ...0.5µ...Very quick sharpening/honing and I'm done and back to work cutting!!!:grin:

I presume you are mainly speaking of sharpening for the kind of carving your doing within your described method? What acceptations to this sharpening approach have you found in regards to grit sequence choice?

Have you done any sharpening with Japanese plane blades and the supper keen planning finish they go with? Outside the carving you do, have you looked at some of the other carving (Japanese as an example) that also seems to demand a much keener edge and attention to detail in edge geometry?

Have you ever used any of the supper fine waterstones @ 0.1µ for plane blades and fine carving edges or diamond sprays (and related) that go to 0.025µ? Seems extreme, but there are applications for some "hair whittlers" (aka planes the surface of a hair like wood...) even in some woodworking tools and techniques.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*The Perfect Edge by Ron Hock*

Hi all,

I found it (finally...!!??)

Here is a link to: ***Link deleted due to copyright (Moderator)


Ron is a colleague and great fellow in general...

This PDF is a great "go to" document for experienced and novice alike that may want a good condensed document on sharpening and related info...and its "FREE!!" :vs_whistle::vs_closedeyes:


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I take my advice from the scanning electron microscope pictures of finished(?) steel edges. No opinions, just fact.
I don't see anybody else ever putting up SEM pictures to back up their opinions. Steels cannot be sharpened to perfect edges.
The diamond edge that I used for 4 years cost $1,500 per millimeter of edge. THAT is an edge. I had a 5mm knife. 



I use very few straight edges. A couple of pairs of 1/2" skews for formline carving. Two good spokeshaves for spokes and handles.
Even my drawknife isn't really straight. Everything else has a sweep needing a different approach.


Using a 10X magnifier under a good LED light, I look for the actinic reflections caused by folded edges.
I guess it's just experience then , to decide which grit to begin with. 600? 800? Put-it-off-until-tomorrow?
1,000 then 1,200 then 1,500 then hone with CrOx/AlOx. A new 454g/1lb bar came in today's mail.


I have new adze and crooked knife blades. I should ducument their finishing and hafting.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

For those of us that don't have a microscope all you have to do is run the edge of you fingernail across the edge. If there is any burr on the edge you will be able to feel it.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> I take my advice from the scanning electron microscope pictures of finished(?) steel edges. No opinions, just fact.
> I don't see anybody else ever putting up SEM pictures to back up their opinions. Steels cannot be sharpened to perfect edges...


Err...Uhm...:vs_worry:...Japanese sharpening fanatics at the (now!) very common 削ろうかい (Kezuroukai...aka: "Shall I shave it?) use SEM and related data all the time to refine there modalites of "keeness" for different blade geometries, and there are a lot of groups into "sharpening," that get deep into this stuff. 

So as to not seeing "anybody else ever putting up SEM pictures" the Japanese do rather often, and so do some of the hard core knife and shaving groups that get into sharpening...

I still think (over all) we are on the same page (and agree?) about...day to day...sharpening...

However, for the other readers into this topic...there are times when much keener, finer edges with very precise edge geometries are required in woodworking to achieve finishes required that simply...*can not*...be achieved with..."1500 grit" with a jump to "honing compound"...(13µ to 0.5µ). It's not a common occurrence, but it is common enough to be able to understand it if one is getting into certain areas of fine woodworking particularly with hand tools and in styles like the Japanese work...

This is just one of many examples, but most are not in English...
Review of paper by Chutaro Kato and Yasunori Kawai, Wear of Knife Used for Hand Plane III: The influence of the cap iron

Yamagata University, Yamagata, Japan

The Japan Wood Research Society Vol. 35, No. 10, p.886-895 (1989)


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*The "burr" isn't the issue...*



Steve Neul said:


> For those of us that don't have a microscope all you have to do is run the edge of you fingernail across the edge. If there is any burr on the edge you will be able to feel it.


"Burr" presence...better understood as the formation of a "wire edge"...isn't the issue in sharpness of a steel edge...per se...

It is rather the removal of this wire edge without eroding the underlay geometry of the alloys crystalline structure, and/or the quality of the alloy to take a fine keen edge...

As to checking how sharp an edge is, that is a learned and practiced understanding that tends to be unique to each individual for the most part, and/or following a method that works for them. 

I tend to keep a few long healthy hairs around, be it horse or human, matters little. The hair either "jumps" apart for very sharp...or...can be "whittled" or "planed" by the edge when extremely keen...but that's just one method for sure. There are many others too...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I found it (finally...!!??)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Jay, it is much appreciated. This is some really great information.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

FWIW, I have found Leonard Lee's advice to be practical, expedient and effective.
I'm certain that since 1995, there area few other publications to follow suit to confirm his photographed findings.


It's no excessive jump from 1500 to CrOx. The performance of the edges in very soft woods confirms that.
3M specifies that the nominal particle size for their 1,500 grit is 3 microns, never 13 microns, as you suggest.


I don't carve any woods so far harder that birch and the handle woods (rosewood & mahogany, I dislike them both)



I don't carve hair so I never test in hair.
I do have "try sticks" for testing edges. These are the various woods that I carve.
I plan to carve those woods for the rest of the day so I test in those woods.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> "Burr" presence...better understood as the formation of a "wire edge"...isn't the issue in sharpness of a steel edge...per se...
> 
> It is rather the removal of this wire edge without eroding the underlay geometry of the alloys crystalline structure, and/or the quality of the alloy to take a fine keen edge...
> 
> ...


Unless someone is rounding the edge by honing it once all the burrs are gone it should be sharp. The burr is the most important thing to remove as when using the chisel the loose piece of metal will push into the edge doing damage to the edge.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I never claimed that a microscope of any kind was at all necessary. The Scanning Electron Microscope pictures are in print, they were published in 1995. Made by the National Research Council of Canada, not some commercial enterprise.

To save time sharpening, you must judge the damage to the edge. I use a 10X magnifier and a bright light, LED is just right.
1. If an edge is really an "edge," there is nothing along the pointy edge to reflect light, correct?
2. Most edge damage consists of short sections crumpled and folded over. Take a look, you can see it all.

3. Those little flat spots reflect light like mirrors. I call them "sparks" of light. Nobody else does.
4. Based on how many and how big those sparks are, I decide which grit particle size I need to begin with.
5. The fact is, I am going to have to remove enough steel to get behind all of those to re-establish the edge.
6. In my shop, with my tools ( mostly Pacific Northwest First Nations designs), I will begin with either 600 or 800 grit.
To the 3M company, those have nominal grit particle sizes of 15 microns or 12 microns, respectively.
7. I paint the edge with black felt marker for proof of abrasion = best plan ever.
I inspect the edge with every change of grit size. Maybe, I see that I have to back up a step. It happens.
= = =
I'll claim that a lot of experience goes into this. I have started with 80 grit carborundum.
Next time that happens, I'll be buying a new edge.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Amazing ... 26 replies*

Well, it an interesting topic with lots of approaches and I've learned a bit here. I've never got that deep into it myself, but I haven't done any carving for a long time since Sculpture class in college. If my gouge didn't cut, I swung a the mallet a little harder at it, Cherry, if I recall.


Any way, as far as rolling the edge or eliminating it, I thought that was what st(r)opping was for? Even after all the polishing, do you still st(r)op the edge?


The word is spelled stropping FYI


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I don't know what the word "stop" means.
I use the word "hone" to describe the final abrasive action that I do with CrOx/AlOx.
Some people call that "stropping" with the abrasive compound on a smooth surface called a strop.
I use flat strops and tubular ones, even a tennis ball for my adzes.



Maybe the tool bevel looks really nice and shiny after than final step.
Look at it with a 10X magnifier in a bright light (don't nick your nose!).
The human eye is too poor to see the very fine scratched pattern so it looks shiny.


The existence of a wire edge tells you that you have run the abrasives right out and over the tool edge.
Paint a bunch of squiggles with black felt marker on the bevel and you can watch it happen as the black marker disappears.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...FWIW, I have found Leonard Lee's advice to be practical, expedient and effective...
> I'm certain that since 1995, there area few other publications to follow suit to confirm his photographed findings.


I agree...I too like Leonard's work (The Complete Guide to Sharpening) and was fortunate to attend a few of his speaking engagements at conferences over the years. He will be missed in all the circles he moved!

This book is well documented for sure, as you suggested. It is "dated." The link I shared earlier does have more current information and understanding of equal note and value to the novice and professional alike. As to germane photos those are spread out in many different papers, books and related, as this subject has grown in popularity...



Brian T said:


> ...t's no excessive jump from 1500 to CrOx. The performance of the edges in very soft woods confirms that...


I fully agree with that...for what you do...and those that practice similar work. However, there are other woodworking demands that this...is not...applicable to and would cause issues with not only general poor performance, but grain tear out as well...




Brian T said:


> ...3M specifies that the nominal particle size for their 1,500 grit is 3 microns, never 13 microns, as you suggest...


Is your 3M product possibly old and no longer manufactured?

I enjoy using many of the 3M products myself...However I think your reference conversions are possibly incorrect? 3M does not call their standard 1500 grit 3 micron anywhere in any of their litruature that I can find, or have here in the shop?

3M does not use ANSI/CAMI (American National Standards Institute - Coated Abrasive Manufacturers Institute) for the most part as far as I know, have ever seen or could even find this evening when I looked to confirm their standard rating system...:vs_worry:...but rather the P rating system (European FEPA standard.)

As such, and all my P1500 by 3M...and it is as I stated...P1500 = (12.6µ ±1µ) which I rounded to 13µ while some call 3M's P1500 closer to 15µ in size...Nor does their catalog of products carry any other 1500 grit that I could find...

However, for your applications in carving, I'm sure that jump is just fine...but not in other woodworking applications it would cause issues...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Well, it an interesting topic with lots of approaches and I've learned a bit here. I've never got that deep into it myself, but I haven't done any carving for a long time since Sculpture class in college. If my gouge didn't cut, I swung a the mallet a little harder at it, Cherry, if I recall.
> 
> 
> Any way, as far as rolling the edge or eliminating it, I thought that was what st(r)opping was for? Even after all the polishing, do you still st(r)op the edge?
> ...


The sharpening job just isn't done unless you strop the chisel. I've got a piece of leather attached to a piece of 1x4 which is loaded down with a jeweler's rouge.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Looking at SEM pictures, nothing beyond 1500 grit (3 micron) with a final honing with 0.5 micron and smaller produced a superior edge.
Steel edges are always shredded. Molecular edges appear in minerals, flint, diamond, even glasses. Not in any steel.
If that were true, steels would break. . . . with edges sharper than glass. Wrong.

The direct result for me was to abandon all *** fine grits, whatever they were supposed to be, and work with facts.
I have lost absolutley nothing and gained a lot of time when opinions were stripped away from the facts.
I start with a coarser grit selection and I finish far short of what opinion demands ( time).



3m supplied a grit reference chart to Lee Valley. They publish it. I use that as a reliable reference.
I gave little creedence to opinion. 3M says 3 microns for their 1,500.

Some day in the city, I will use a calibrated ocular micrometer and measure 100 grit grains using dark field microscopy.
I taught Biometry, I can do the stats very well.
I realize that there are several "grit scale" which have no relevance to the real world. The Japanese Scale, included.

The SI Metric System is not arbitrary in dimension measurement.
= = =
Although, there is a big stink at the moment as the platinum bar meter standard is wearing out!
Something new is needed. I'll get the beer and popcorn ready while we watch.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

The stropping process = honing, uses a very fine abrasive to clean off the coarser scratches from coarser abrasives.
This reduces the shredded appearance of the steel edge (fact). 

Strop surfaces blacken, proof that you are still removing metal.

Any 10X magnifier will show you that the shiny polished surface is just very finely scratched.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...Looking at SEM pictures, nothing beyond 1500 grit (3 micron) with a final honing with 0.5 micron and smaller produced a superior edge...


Agreed...3µ to 0.5µ...is a worthy approach...to most needs in edged tools...




Brian T said:


> ...Steel edges are always shredded. Molecular edges appear in minerals, flint, diamond, even glasses. Not in any steel. If that were true, steels would break. . . . with edges sharper than glass.... Wrong.


Agreed...silicate base materials fracture to the molecular level...

This is well known and understood by those that use stone tools and/or stone scrapers in wood working, as I have discussed here before.

As for "steel would break" and your "wrong" comment...???...some steels (particularity high grade Japanese white and blue steels are often equated to...."shattering more like glass, then failing like a typical alloy..." These specialty alloys present with some interesting metallurgical characteristics that render their ability to take fine edge and leave unique finishes on wood. 



Brian T said:


> ...The direct result for me was to abandon all *** fine grits, whatever they were supposed to be, and work with facts.
> I have lost absolutely nothing and gained a lot of time when opinions were stripped away from the facts.
> I start with a coarser grit selection and I finish far short of what opinion demands ( time). ...


To be clear Brian...are you suggesting that what I am offering isn't based on facts, such as I have present for this discussion? 

The "facts" are that Lee's work is from 95' and there is a great deal of up to date work out there in both sharpening and metallurgy that is germane to this conversation. 

I agree with you for the most part about..."day to day"...sharpening. However, the system of jumping large micron ranges is not a ubiquitous approach applicable in all woodworking conditions. It...would not...work in many applications because the edge is not refined enough to arrest grain crush and tear out...or...would not be durable enough to last very long.

As just one example (and there are others) SEM examination of straight razors clearly indicates both in visual perspective and in the feel of a shave, that refining an edge of some alloy types with closer micron ranges in sharpening/honing and going past 0.5µ in the final hone renders a marked difference in not only performance, but quality of the shave. This is also true in many of the Japanese planing modality...not opinion...but fact...If you have actual contrary experience with these modalities I would love knowing about them and any reference literature support that supposition?




Brian T said:


> ...3m supplied a grit reference chart to Lee Valley. They publish it. I use that as a reliable reference. I gave little creedence to opinion. 3M says 3 microns for their 1,500. ...


Again...what I have shared is not "opinion" as one source was a PhD dissertation and the other from Hock himself as colleague of Lee's. 

As to the "grit reference chart" I will gladly...stand corrected...but as of this afternoon when I checked...You are using and citing outdated information as the foundation for your claim...unless your materials are also from 1995?

3M does not produce at this time (or any longer?) a 1500 grit of any kind in the 3µ range...only in the 13µ to 15µ range as they now employ a P1500 rating system, as I stated before...fact, not opinion.

If you have a source or a link to a section of the 3M catalog I am overlooking...???...I would be more than pleased to see it and add that product to our sharpening supplies...



Brian T said:


> ...Some day in the city, I will use a calibrated ocular micrometer and measure 100 grit grains using dark field microscopy. I taught Biometry, I can do the stats very well. I realize that there are several "grit scale" which have no relevance to the real world. The Japanese Scale, included. The SI Metric System is not arbitrary in dimension measurement. Although, there is a big stink at the moment as the platinum bar meter standard is wearing out! Something new is needed. I'll get the beer and popcorn ready while we watch....


The application of statistical analysis to biological data not withstanding...

I would more than enjoy your understanding (with your background in particular) of the work the Japanese are doing (and have done) in both traditional metallurgy, and that application in sharpening...well outside the context of Western understanding in many regards.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

The statistical analysis isn't biological in the least. The application of common statistical methods to a pile of measurements.
The data source doesn't matter, there's no bias. Variation is a fact. The dispersion around the mean would be interesting.


I'm explaining a simplistic technique which seems to have been shop-worthy in the past 10-15 years.
It's been time saving in that I've been able to eliminate superfluous steps. That's the good part.



I have no appetite to see SEM pictures from 'scopes which might have marginally better resolution. 

As you have read, I have no interest in Asian tools. The function of the Pacific Northwest designs has been quite engaging.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...As you have read, I have no interest in Asian tools. The function of the Pacific Northwest designs has been quite engaging...


Agreed...data sources do not matter...honest numbers can't be biased, and I wish I had your insight and skills to better appreciate the mean wide ranges...

It may be a "simplistic technique" of which you explain and practice but a worthy one that others could benefit from understanding as it is the "bread and butter" of my daily practice too, and keeps time better focused on craft...not needless time at stone and hone...That indeed Brain is the "good part."

I fully accept you have no interest beyond you own chosen focus and current discipline of craft...Should you ever find your self of a different mind, I would enjoy your insights...


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

My revised thinking about carving sharp steel edges has saved about 50% of the time that I used to invest in sharpening.
Several of the steps were apparently not needed to arrive at the same end point.
If I did a lot of straight edges, some motorized contraption might have been useful.
That might even shorten the step path.


The Standard Deviation: 's', gives me a heap of information about the dispersal of the data.
+/- s is 66% of the data, that 's just how it works out. +/-2s is about 98% of the data.
Show me how big 's' is and we can see how carefully grit( in this case) was sorted out for size.
In fact, if you find a datum 3s or 4s from the mean, it's legitimate to discard it as a freak.
Nevertheless, that chunk will put a scratch in a tool face that won't come out for years.


Just maybe, late April after the students are gone, I'll get into a lab and start measuring grits with a calibrated microscope.
I'm faintly surprised that somebody has not done this for sandpapers and stones already.


Mark the stone 10 +/- 2 which would be 10 microns, +/- 2 microns so 2/3 of the grit is between 8 and 12 microns.


Now, I find a CHEAP stone to learn that the size is 10 micron +/- 5 microns. 2/3 of the stone grits run from 5 to 15 microns.
= = = 

Anyway. I need predictable grit sizes to save me bags of time.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> For those of us that don't have a microscope all you have to do is run the edge of you fingernail across the edge. If there is any burr on the edge you will be able to feel it.


Unless, like me you've run your finger through a spinning table saw blade to numb the feeling in said fingernail.. I didn't do it for that specific purpose however.. It was an accident. :wink: I do, however have other fingers not quite so mangled.. I try to keep them intact whenever reasonably practical.. 

I enjoy the PDF Jay. Thanks for the link.


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## SeanStuart (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the very detailed replies, much of which I do not understand. ; ).. I don't get to reply much mid week. BTW, I am talking about hand carving chisels and gouges. 



A little more info: I currently use a Norton Tri-Stone that I bought about 25 years ago. I think I have only replaced the stones once. I have no idea what the coarse, medium, and fine oil stones equate to in microns, but they work fine for regular kitchen tools. If I sharpen beat up or un-sharpened gouges on that, it puts a groove in the stone... not good. And then I need to continue with many levels of sandpaper, because the tri-stone is not even remotely fine. 



Regular maintenance and touch-ups I do on 800 to 2000 sandpaper, and a strop. 



I was thinking a motorized method would be most convenient, and the quickest method for refinishing the bevel on a carving tool. Those that have the Tormek really like it. FWIW. Other slow grinders and such are available, but they do not have the magic stone that converts the wheel from 220 to 1000 grit..


The other slow/wet grinders are cheaper than quality wet stones. Will the edge from the Tormek be a sharp usable edge? Experience? Opinions? Thanks again.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

SeanStuart said:


> ...The other slow/wet grinders are cheaper than quality wet stones. Will the edge from the Tormek be a sharp usable edge? Experience? Opinions? Thanks again.



Feel free to ask more detailed questions...by all means...if you don't understand something.

Several here (me included) have provided answers to the question already...Some like the Tormek, and it is a good machine, while others of us (I'm one) do not think its worth the money...It also will not sharpen incannal carving gouges or many of the profiled carving chisels at all...

I recommend in an earlier post the Worksharp and I think a few other options...Making your own profiles with wood and using diamond paper and/or products like 3M will get most of your sharpening done fast....

Again, more questions are welcome...


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

None of you ever mention the TomZ, a motorized sharpener for wood carving eges. Designed by a carver.


Flat stones and mandrels are cheap. No need for wooden profiles, etc. Even tennis balls don't cost much.

If I was not satisfied with both the quality and the speed of my freehand sharpening, I would be looking still.


I'll be the first to say that for every carver with physical challenges, 

I'm positive that we can make a machine do the job.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...None of you ever mention the TomZ, a motorized sharpener for wood carving edges. Designed by a carver...


I'm not certain they are made anymore...or...are a "one off" custom build? Some folks have made their own versions of the same devise as Tom did (does?)...

The Spokane Carvers Blog is the only place I know to get them...???...do you know another? 

Are they still actually made?

Do you like the one you use? 

TomZ Knife Massager

At $200...I chose (after using one of TomZ's machines) to go with the system I recommend earlier...

I have considered adding a Burke Sharpening System which is still made and/or building one. It is a more diversified system and does an excellent job fast!!! It's diversity is more fitting to the various knives, chisels (straight and gouge...incannal and outcannel) than that of the "Knife Massager." However, many do seem like both the Burke and TomZ's systems...



Brian T said:


> ...Flat stones and mandrels are cheap. No need for wooden profiles, etc. Even tennis balls don't cost much...


:huh::blink:???...I can respect the opinion of liking flat stones or "tennis balls" (a mandrel is a shaft or spindle on a drill, lathe for turning...or cylindrical rod around which metal or other material is forged or shaped...not a "tennisball?") ...but as to "no need for wood profiles" that is pushing your opinion up a steep hill...:glare:

I know more carvers (me included) that like making there custom profiles for sharpening out of wood as these are dedicated to the specific tool...and...these are much less expensive than flat stones...fact...not opinion... on that one...



Brian T said:


> ...If I was not satisfied with both the quality and the speed of my freehand sharpening, I would be looking still...


I can respect that...for sure...

Nevertheless, I think that can be said for any of us that have extensive experience sharpening about the systems we have experience with.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening. 

Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges.
I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.



I know what mandrels are as supports for abrasives. I have to use quite a variety, including tennis balls.
I have been able to cut the time in half, sort of, for my freehand maintenance of all the edges that I use.
The select abrasives have predictable action. 



I'm still looking and hoping to find suitable hard river stones (no shortage here to pick from)
to test their value as abrasive for the progressive sweeps of the crooked knives.



I think the key step is to evaluate the condition of the worn edge. Frequent inspection might shorten each stage.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Brian T said:


> ...I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening...Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges...I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.


My error...???

I just thought because your recommended TomZ's tool you had experience using it...



Brian T said:


> ...I know what mandrels are as supports for abrasives. I have to use quite a variety, including tennis balls...I have been able to cut the time in half, sort of, for my freehand maintenance of all the edges that I use...The select abrasives have predictable action.


I understand better now your meaning of "mandrel." You are using it outside the context of its normal meaning and applying your own understanding of the word.

I take it now to not being an actual mechanized "spinning mandrel" like we find with carving bits and sanding cap mandrel but your own hand holding a tennis ball covered in abrasive materials...Sounds interesting?



Brian T said:


> ...I'm still looking and hoping to find suitable hard river stones (no shortage here to pick from) to test their value as abrasive for the progressive sweeps of the crooked knives...


Now that deserves its own "post thread" on the topic of sharpening. I know a colleague in Japan and one in Arkansas that have there own special Brook that has the stream of water cutting through a vein of stone stratum of several high quality stones. If you have such there you are bound to find some interesting samples!

I know my best Japanese water stones are "natural-man made" which reads like a paradox, but really isn't...LOL...:vs_laugh:

The use only the best "natural stone" and then grind these to sift and remove all "clinkers" from the medium. Then the process with a porcelain grade kaolin clay to traditionally fire a stone that is both pure in various grain size but also very fast cutting...

It would be cool if to try a "home version" of this to make my own stones, which is on my "bucket list" of things to do once I have my ceramics stuff all set up again...



Brian T said:


> ...I think the key step is to evaluate the condition of the worn edge. Frequent inspection might shorten each stage...


I agree fully...

I think folks wait to long between inspection and honing and have then spend more time sharpening rather than proper edge maintenance that is less aggressive in nature...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Brian T said:


> I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening.
> 
> Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges.
> I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.


I spoke with Tom on the WCI that you and I are a member of. Tom told me all I needed to know to make my own massage machine hone. I really do like it, it is slow enough that it will never over heat an edge. I have the hard felt wheel for polishing also, it is much faster so I usually will place my finger right at the edge I am polishing so I won't over heat it. 

There are so many different ways to sharpen and polish edges it is confusing to a person just starting off. I know I went through a lot of trial and error sharpening and trying different ways. I still use different methods at times, just depends on what mood I am in. lol I usually will just hone my edges as I need to, unless I chip one, then it back to sharpening.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

The OP wanted something quick. A fast way to maintain edges. Whatever the technique is.


I'll suggest that inspection of any edge in a bright light is enough to judge what to do.
I have to use a 10X magnifier for my old eyes. Keep looking to see what's happening.

I will not begin at 400 if I decided that a few licks begining with 1,000 will do the job, skipping 600 and 800.
That's about 1/2 my process time, right there.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*PLEASE REMOVE THE COPY OF..."The Perfect Edge by Ron Hock"*

*ATTENTION READERS:*

This linked copy that I provided from my book marked links was not a sanctioned PDF. Please destroy, erase and/or remove all copies made. Please remove any links to the online PDF you may have bookmarked also.

As a public service announcement, I have addressed this with Ron directly, and with a Senior Moderator here on the forum also.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> *ATTENTION READERS:*
> 
> This linked copy that I provided from my book marked links was not a sanctioned PDF. Please destroy, erase and/or remove all copies made. Please remove any links to the online PDF you may have bookmarked also.
> 
> As a public service announcement, I have addressed this with Ron directly, and with a Senior Moderator here on the forum also.


I deleted post 18 with the link.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Please restore the record and properly repair the posts...*



Steve Neul said:


> I deleted post 18 with the link.


Steve,

I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...

In your rush to get involved you have taken corrective action that is not appropriate to the public record!!!

I made a clear mistake with my actions. The record of those actions...NEED TO...stay intact for the contextual record of this forum conversation. 

ONLY...the links to the PDF source needs to be REMOVED...Please put place post 18 back within this record without the link so the context of this conversation stays intake and does not look like a surreptitious "cover up" of...my error!!!

Also, in your haste to take action already being addressed by me, you neglected to remove the other remaining "copied" links within this conversation. 

If you wish to be helpful, please remove those links and replace post 18 as well...without the links! I made an error...I own my mistakes...I do not shy from them or try to neglect when I have made one by erasing there existence...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Steve,
> 
> I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...
> 
> ...


Jay, I have reversed the deleted post #18 and removed the link with a note. If you will point me to other links that need to be removed I will remove them as well.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

BigJim said:


> Jay, I have reversed the deleted post #18 and removed the link with a note. If you will point me to other links that need to be removed I will remove them as well.


My sincere thanks Jim for repairing the record within this conversation. All links appear removed. Ron will, of course check, but at this time is please and satisfied with the outcome. 

If any readers do enjoy his book, I would encourage them to get a copy of it. It is an excellent one, and I have already apologized to Ron for my error in assuming the PDF was of the public record, and not the "boot leg," copy it turned out to be...


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

If you really need fine wet&dry sandpapers with measured grit particle sizes,
Lee Valley stocks 3M paper to 2,500 grit, including 1,500.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Steve,
> 
> I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I searched for the link only and when I found it the only text in the post was about the link so I deleted the post. Without the link I couldn't see how the text would add to the conversation.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Back on topic:

How do people with mechanized sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades? 

I have a Grizzly wet sharpener with Tormek jigs. I just started using a Robert Sorby ProEdge sharpener, which uses dry sanding belts with precise guides to align the tool to be sharpened. Neither the Grizzly nor the Sorby ProEdge instructions mention anything about flattening the backs of flat-edged tools. Grizzly especially warns against using the side of the grinding stone. 

The experts who design, build, and use these sharpeners must know about the importance of flattening the backs of flat tools. To me, the lack of guidance for flattening the backs feels like the "elephant in the room." It is annoying that they don't mention it. I understand that once your blade is flat, it should stay that way for a long time, needing only the barest of touch-ups from time to time. Flattening the backs of blades is an essential part of the sharpening process. It is an inconvenient truth that their designs do not seem to address it. In my opinion, they owed us the courtesy of instructing us how they expected us to flatten the backs of hand tool blades with their sharpening systems. In my opinion, the least they could have done is include text in the instructions, something like, "This tool will sharpen and hone perfect bevels, but first you should flatten the backs of your flat hand tool blades using an external system (not included), such as sandpaper on a flat surface, or diamond sharpening stones." 

I tried flattening the backs of two new chisels on the Sorby ProEdge by pressing them sideways, flat against the moving belt with its backing plate. It was an awful experience, and I could feel that it was not going to turn out well. It left lots of bevels and reflective angles. I just spent two full hours on the extra extra course stone, trying to flatten the backs of those two chisels. I am an hour or two away from finishing that job, which is what prompted this post.

I have not tried flattening them on the side of the Grizzly grinding wheel. Grizzly specifically warns against it. Even if it were allowed, I wonder whether the results would be similar to what happened with the Sorby ProEdge, considering that there is no "jig" to hold the chisel flat against the Grizzly wheel. 

I have two questions:

* How do people with wet grinders and sanding belt sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades? Am I missing something obvious?

* How much time should it take to flatten the back of a typical 3/4 inch chisel with the damage I described, on an extra extra course stone? Does 2-3 hours of near-constant back-and-forth sharpening sound reasonable? Could my extra extra course diamond stone be too worn to take the metal off fast enough?


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

Tormek suggests using the side of the stone so that is a Grizzly thing.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Tool Agnostic, I think when you buy a new chisel, it comes about as flat as any mechanical machine can make it...give or take.
If you look at it under a microscope, there are scratch marks that make the flat side kind of corrugated. Those corrugations must be flattened further by hand on a flat surface using finer grits, because the corrugations will prevent the bevel from making a keen edge...where the two meet. Even though it takes what seem like forever to achieve that perfect/polished surface on the flat side, that is why it is so important. By flattening the flat side using your finest grit on a flat surface...and stroking the tool as close to 90 degrees to the surface...creates striations(scratch marks) that are less likely to spill over the edge, and will reduce the corrugations. I doubt that since a machine has moving parts, that it will be $$$/practical to ever achieve the flatness that can be achieved by flattening by hand.


I bought a 400x microscope that clips on my phone camera to better see what I have described, and from what I saw made me realize is that by going further and further finer and finer in grit will reduce the depth of the scratch marks, making it easier to achieve a keen edge when I switch to sharpening the bevel. This process also taught me to take a lot better care when handling my chisels afterwards.


The same theory's apply to plane irons, and when applied will cut curls when planning end grain.

I use an old speaker magnet to hold the chisel/plane iron for better control when using this method, and it eliminated the cramping in my hands.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> How do people with mechanized sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades?
> 
> ...


I use wet sandpaper on glass to flatten the back of my chisels.


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## SeanStuart (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Tool, You don’t mind if I use your first name do you? ; )
I don’t have any input on flattening the back of chisels or plane blades. I understand the importance. I have only done this with sandpaper. 
I would love to hear your views on the Sorby ProEdge Sharpener. It gets great reviews. My concerns are these:


1. 1. It is a belt sander. I do not like the way most belt sanders curve the bevel outward. Does this one do that? Opposed to a slight hollow grind that results from a wheel. It does seem to have a nice flat back to the area that would be used to sharpen. That might keep the bevel flat/straight.


2. 2. The belt comes from the top to the bottom, so the edge is pushing into the abrasion. This seems like it would not produce the best edge. No way to create a bead and then bend it off. 



3. 3. First thought was that pushing a gouge into a belt was a very bad idea. Seems like a sharp tool would push through a sanding belt. What has been your experience? How do the belts last?


4. 4. I had a forth question, but have no idea what it was. It will probably come back. 



Thanks!


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## ElizaBrown67 (May 21, 2019)

I have one handheld electric sharpener. Its easy and quick. I have never use sharpener for wooden tools. I always use stones and sandpaper. Do you know any wooden tools sharpener?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There are many different machines to hone chisels. It could perhaps be a labor savings if a person had a lot of chisels to sharpen at once but if a person knew how to use natural stones could sharpen a chisel just as fast without it. Sharpening any tool is a matter of polishing an edge on the metal and requires stones of different textures from coarse to very fine and on a machine would be a lot of work changing those stones. Sharpening just a couple chisels it's easier to just pick up the stones as you need them. https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/power-sharpeners


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> There are many different machines to hone chisels. It could perhaps be a labor savings if a person had a lot of chisels to sharpen at once but if a person knew how to use natural stones could sharpen a chisel just as fast without it. Sharpening any tool is a matter of polishing an edge on the metal and requires stones of different textures from coarse to very fine and on a machine would be a lot of work changing those stones. Sharpening just a couple chisels it's easier to just pick up the stones as you need them. https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/power-sharpeners


*YES EXACTLY.*

One of the key components behind this strategy is to never let your tool get real dull in the first place


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

(I missed these comments directed at me before. I saw them when the thread "reactivated.") 



gmercer_48083 said:


> Tool Agnostic, I think when you buy a new chisel, it comes about as flat as any mechanical machine can make it...give or take.
> If you look at it under a microscope, there are scratch marks that make the flat side kind of corrugated. Those corrugations must be flattened further by hand on a flat surface using finer grits, because the corrugations will prevent the bevel from making a keen edge...where the two meet. Even though it takes what seem like forever to achieve that perfect/polished surface on the flat side, that is why it is so important. By flattening the flat side using your finest grit on a flat surface...and stroking the tool as close to 90 degrees to the surface...creates striations(scratch marks) that are less likely to spill over the edge, and will reduce the corrugations. I doubt that since a machine has moving parts, that it will be $$$/practical to ever achieve the flatness that can be achieved by flattening by hand.
> 
> I bought a 400x microscope that clips on my phone camera to better see what I have described, and from what I saw made me realize is that by going further and further finer and finer in grit will reduce the depth of the scratch marks, making it easier to achieve a keen edge when I switch to sharpening the bevel. This process also taught me to take a lot better care when handling my chisels afterwards.
> ...


Good advice. Thanks. 

The cheap WorkSharp chisels from Aldi were not well machined. The backs needed some work. I was playing with the Sorby ProEdge anyway, and did not mind sacrificing $6.95 worth of cheap chisels to learn what would happen. See below.



SeanStuart said:


> Hi Tool, You don’t mind if I use your first name do you? ; )
> I don’t have any input on flattening the back of chisels or plane blades. I understand the importance. I have only done this with sandpaper.
> I would love to hear your views on the Sorby ProEdge Sharpener. It gets great reviews. My concerns are these:
> 
> ...


I dunno about that name. Sounds like a name that only Spouse would use, and only on "special occasions." 

Before addressing the specific questions, let me clarify that I used the Sorby ProEdge for several weeks. I used it while preparing for a demo, and probably won't use it again for a long time. I used an inexpensive digital microscope to examine the edges of my tools when I was playing with the Sorby ProEdge. 

1. The belt rests flat on the backing plate. The grind is flat on the Sorby ProEdge. I did not notice any "hollow grind" at all.

2. I assume that Sorby designed the ProEdge with the belt moving toward the tool edge so that it removes material faster. That's just a guess. It was a design tradeoff that Sorby made. Obviously it sharpens well enough - Sorby has been making it for years. 

3. Pushing tools into the sanding belt requires practice. I did not encounter any issues with the tool edge shaving, peeling, or wearing off the grit from the sandpaper. If you push too hard, the tool tends to ride up the belt so that you find yourself creating a new bevel on the "heel" of the existing bevel. There is a definite "touch" or "technique" that must be learned, preferably on tools that you don't care much about.

I wore out an aluminum oxide belt when I messed up the angle setting on a skew chisel and put on a full new bevel. 

4. The answer is 42.

In my opinion, the compelling features of the Sorby ProEdge are:

* The way that you set the grind angle. The thick metal plates with the large holes and fat metal pin allow you to set angles with absolute precision.

* Fast and convenient. If you are turning wood, you can quickly set the angle and resharpen your tool to keep working. When I use my Grizzly T10010ANV wet grinder, I must first fill the tank, let the wheel absorb the water, and then add more water. Setting precise angles takes much longer on the Grizzly than the Sorby ProEdge, even though I use a Tormek TTS-100 turning tool setter. If you are using the leather stropping wheel, you must flip the bar over and reset the angle. It all takes longer on the Grizzly. The Sorby is faster and easier, but takes more practice and skill to use.

I am sorry for not responding sooner, but I just noticed your post.


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## Mikhail2400 (Jun 20, 2018)

I guess Im a little to country for most of the stuff mentioned on here. I have a 20 year (or older) Delta wet/slow grinder I use to fine tune chisels, gouges and such and they seem to cut just fine. At least in my opinion they do. i also have a piece of leather stretched across a piece of wood I use after the wet grinder but thats the extent of what I use to sharpen tools with. to be honest the wet/slow grinder is too slow in my opinion and Ive been thinking about getting a CBN wheel for my bench grinder to use instead. Now I have thought about buying one of the jig systems to keep the gouges and such on the perfect angle when I sharpen them but until it becomes a problem Ill just go by eye/hand.
Like my pappy said, 'Dont fix what aint broken boy"


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