# Building with green wood



## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi guys, I am new here, and I was wondering if any of you that ever worked with wood that is not totally dry. Is there a way to minimize or utilize the shrinkage? Are there species that are more suited for use in this way? I would like to cut boards of oak to side a building, but don't want to take the time to stack and dry for a year. Anyone out there tried using green wood?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Izzy434 said:


> Hi guys, I am new here, and I was wondering if any of you that ever worked with wood that is not totally dry. Is there a way to minimize or utilize the shrinkage? Are there species that are more suited for use in this way? I would like to cut boards of oak to side a building, but don't want to take the time to stack and dry for a year. Anyone out there tried using green wood?


Just keep the nails to a minimum so the wood is able to shrink and allow for that shrinkage when you lay out the siding. One question though, is it red oak or white oak? White oak would be alright for that application but red oak will rot easily.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Just know all your joints will open up big time when the lumber is dried. You don't want to nail the boards at the top and bottom because they will crack as they shrink.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

It's red oak. I thought oak was a good hardwood for building. Not so?


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I agree, red oak is unsuitable for exterior work. It will rot! White will hold up well. BUT flat sawn boards will cup a lot as they dry if not stickered properly.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Izzy434 said:


> It's red oak. I thought oak was a good hardwood for building. Not so?


There are places in the country where they make doors, windows and exterior trim out of white oak and never put a finish on them. They just let the weather turn the wood gray. I think it would hold up a lot better if they put a finish on it but never the less it will last longer than a lot of different kinds of wood with no finish on it. Red oak on the other hand will turn black when exposed to water and will rot faster than pine.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Well that discouraging. I figured oak would be a good bet. What if I treat both side with Sikkens or something good before hanging the board? Or what about Cherry, or White Pine or Spruce?. These are my options.

I made a rustic door out of freshly cut boards many years ago, just for a test. I used White Pine, and treated both side with Sikkens SRD. I hung the door on an old shed that sits in direct sunlight. I also, installed some boards horizontally on either side of the door, just to see what happens. Years later, of course gaps have formed between the boards on the door, and small gaps on the ends of the siding boards, but no splitting, or cupping. So, I figured if White Pine held up for 15 years so far, then Oak ought to be even better. But you are all saying NO. I guess I figured wrong.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Treating the back side of any wood would certainly help. If you have cherry you can mill into lumber I would sell it and get yourself some pressure treated pine. The pressure treated pine would last longer than anything else you could use outside of something synthetic. Otherwise your cherry would be pretty good for exterior use. The white pine or spruce would be alright and certainly better than the red oak. The only other issue would be if the wood contains any insects. When you kiln dry lumber it not only dries the wood it kills any insects that might be contained in the wood. If you are going to use the wood green you might lay it out somewhere and spray the wood with an insecticide made for termites.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Red Oak group of species, first. The bulk of the wood is composed of 2 cells types. Hard skinny fiber and larger, open chains of barrel-like cells (vessel elements) which extend the height of the entire tree as structures called vessels.
It is a fact that you can blow into a 4' piece with one end in water and see bubbles coming out. So, if rainwater gets into this wood, it can rot from the inside out. For flooring, there's a paste sealer that's applied, dried and sanded back to plug the vessels (aka 'pores'.) Must be something for outdoor service but I never need to look.

White Oak group of species: The wood looks very much the same but with one very important difference = the vessel elements get plugged with "blow-outs" in the side walls of nearby living cells. _The vessels are occluded by tyloses _is the proper wood anatomy description. Thus white oak wood is waterproof. Service includes wine/sherr/whiskey/etc barrels, as you all know. Finish for outdoor service must be available. Sikkens Cetol is most common here.

Almost all other known hardwoods have vessels, very few of them have any tyloses at all.
Softwoods, conifers, don't have vessels composed of vessel elements. Even with cut-open end grain, 
I would not expect any finish to penetrate more that the first cell or two, unless a vacuum system is used.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Izzy,

I will try and help...



> I would like to cut boards of oak to side a building, but don't want to take the time to stack and dry for a year. Anyone out there tried using green wood?


I work mainly in Folk Styles of woodworking so that means generally green wood. Oak is fine, but some species are better than other...Most important is the design. 

As mention Red Oak is not very rot resistant...Nevertheless, if designed properly (and jointed properly) it too can be employed if allowed to drain properly and generally protected from ground contact and can dry thoroughly between wettings. 

Again these are "general statements" and much more detail would have to be understood to help further...



> Is there a way to minimize or utilize the shrinkage?


That is primarily dependant on species selection and how the wood is milled. Both can mitigate shrinkage and/or how the wood shrinks.



> Are there species that are more suited for use in this way?


Yes...and the list could run on for pages...I would probably use White Pine or Hemlock over Red Oak...but again...I can say for sure without understanding you plan-design in more details...

Regards,

j


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Izzy,

I will try and help...



> I would like to cut boards of oak to side a building, but don't want to take the time to stack and dry for a year. Anyone out there tried using green wood?


I work mainly in Folk Styles of woodworking so that means generally green wood. Oak is fine, but some species are better than other...Most important is the design. 

As mention Red Oak is not very rot resistant...Nevertheless, if designed properly (and jointed properly) it too can be employed if allowed to drain properly and generally protected from ground contact and can dry thoroughly between wettings. 

Again these are "general statements" and much more detail would have to be understood to help further...



> Is there a way to minimize or utilize the shrinkage?


That is primarily dependant on species selection and how the wood is milled. Both can mitigate shrinkage and/or how the wood shrinks.



> Are there species that are more suited for use in this way?


Yes...and the list could run on for pages...I would probably use White Pine or Hemlock over Red Oak...but again...I can say for sure without understanding you plan-design in more details...

Regards,

j


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Izzy,

I will try and address each of your question from my experience:



> Anyone out there tried using green wood? I was wondering if any of you that ever worked with wood that is not totally dry.


As a Timberwright and Folk Styles woodworker, I work almost exclusively in green (aka fresh) timber, plank, and other stock. This style of traditional woodworking is gaining more and more favor and popularity with the next generation of woodworkers as they seem to be a very keen on traditional arts.



> Is there a way to minimize or utilize the shrinkage?


Short answer...Yes.

The rest can get pretty complex, such as species, age of species, where and how it grew, grain selection (aka flat/rift/quarter sawn or riven)



> Are there species that are more suited for use in this way?


Well...Yes and No...?

It depends on the item being made and how it is made...as well as...species and the other things mentioned above. 

White Pine and Red Oak are extremely common timber framing species, as are a few more depending on region from Hemlock, and Aspen to Yellow Poplar and Tupelo. Move up North further and you get into an entire other range of species with the most commonly used (globally) in traditional building being the Conifers.



> I would like to cut boards of oak to side a building, but don't want to take the time to stack and dry for a year.


Doable...but more details about the structure, how the wood will be milled, etc.



> Well that discouraging. I figured oak would be a good bet. What if I treat both side with Sikkens or something good before hanging the board? Or what about Cherry, or White Pine or Spruce?. These are my options... So, I figured if White Pine held up for 15 years so far, then Oak ought to be even better. But you are all saying NO. I guess I figured wrong.


No...you didn't figure wrong at all...All of these can be used, but I would need to know more about your project, and how it is designed. Oaks can move a lot (especially Red Oak) but it is (and was) used in the green state without drying...


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi White Cloud,

Great to read your comments. You obviously know your stuff. I have so many questions to ask you.

Would you recommend a good source of information about using green wood? Anyone I have talked to about his, says I am asking for trouble, but it seems there must be a way.

Would you be willing to coach me through some of my questions. I would be willing to pay you.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Izzy,



> Would you recommend a good source of information about using green wood?


Below is my Book List (ever growing and some out of print...sorry) on this subject. You should be able to get to my entire public booklist that I share with students. It is not complete nor contain some of the higher end academic and/or collegiate research on the various subjects. Most major universities have a decent collection, and can borrow from other collections as well.

Green Woodworking Booklist

(*Note to Moderators:* This is an Amazon Book List link. I receive nor get any (zero) gratuity from this and have continued to refuse such a relationship from Amazon. I do not care where folks find their books, and actually like small local bookstores for my source. This is just the most convenient method to share this information from a single source point.)



> Anyone I have talked to about this, says I am asking for trouble, but it seems there must be a way...


You may be asking for a challenge...ha, ha,...and doing it way different than most do today...You are not however doing anything new. If anything you are doing it correctly and the way it has been done the longest up to about 50 years ago in most cultures that use wood.

Most today would think this is "asking for trouble," and are not incorrect from their perspective...they just do not have (nor are taught) these skill sets. This was almost a lost art or understanding of woodworking accept for the few of use that hung on to what we have been taught, and/or are learning from other cultures and systems of traditional folk arts. 

I would note that simple logic would dictate that...*greenwood*...has been the dominant source of materials for most humans throughout our history, as fancy high end architecture (and the furnishing that go in them) are not what the majority of humans had to live in or with. As such, they needed, what they needed, as fast as possible for structure and furnishing and most often *DID NOT* have the luxury of waiting very long for things to be built. Their houses, barns, and other furnishings or even the floors they walked around on...when made of wood...was a matter of pragmatic and practical need. Trees came down, go hewn, riven or sawn/milled...then used without much delay.

As for "kiln dried wood" it did not exist so that concept that this has to be used is completely false. I still refuse to use kilned wood on most projects, as it would be out of context for the woodworking styles I practice. 



> Would you be willing to coach me through some of my questions. I would be willing to pay you.


I share on forums like this pro bono, beyond that detailed scope of what I can share here for all to see and offer comment/observation about would be beyond the realm of my purpose for such forum discussions.

With that said...Ask whatever you wish, and I will do the best I can to help.

Beyond that assistance (and requisite level of detail) contact me via email should you require (or want) more or deeper assistance.

Regards,

j


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

PHEW!!!! Jay, WOW!!! I feel like I just struck gold!!! Thanks!! This book list will keep be busy for a long time. This is my first post on any woodworking sight, so needless to say I am thrilled to meet you!!! I am sure I will have more to ask in the future about my siding project. But for now, since my last post, there is a some real big news to tell. 

Consumers Energy is calling our land a Hazard Zone. Their High Voltage Power supply line cuts across our property, right through our small rustic community campground and gathering shelter, here in southeast Michigan. We had a big storm a couple weeks ago come through that wiped power out for a long time for a lot of customers, because of downed trees all over the place. 

Consumers Energy currently has an 80 foot easement through and across our property. On either side of the clearing is what remains of a 50 year old spruce forest of trees that were planted too close together. They are growing straight up competing for light. 


Because our 50 foot spruce trees fall on their power line, they have to come out and remove the tree and repair the line, and having trees on their lines is not what they like, and so they have decided that they want to clear out another 20 feet on either side, widening the clearing to 120 feet. 

While the community and campground will be feeling "scalped" by the removal of these trees for a long time to come, I am trying to find the blessing in disguise. 

Within 30 days they will be cutting down a LOT of spruces ranging from 30 to 50 feet. All of them having no live branches until the top fifth of the tree. Myself being the convener of the property committee, am the one trying to negotiate with the guys from Consumers. 

At this point. These are the tools I have.

I have a sawmill. Timberking B20. Older sawmill, but she cuts straight.

I have a couple tractors with loaders. 

My array of chainsaws.

My 1984 Toyota 4x4 with a 16 foot trailer.



At this point. My list of helpers.

So far, one friend that wants to help.


I am hoping if I come up with a good plan, I can present it to the board, and see if I can get the community going on something really good. 

Could these trees be turned into rustic cabins for our campground? 

Or is that idea too complicated? Could I square up some longs and notch them out like the old Lincoln Logs, and build some kind of primitive frame, and cut boards for the community members to nail up?
What are the possibilities?


Any ideas for simple primitive easy type structures welcome

I don't know if it's just a crazy dream, or a real possibility.

Any comments appreciated


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

White Cloud I want to say thanks for your info here and a few other posts!!! WELCOME ABOARD!!!

I don't normally push the green/fresh wood side of building due to most won't take the time to learn the correct techniques AND most here are using lumber in humidity controlled air tight houses without taking the time to MC/ acclimate the two together. All the build techniques are basically the same for both BUT what I call raw green or even not properly dried/moisture put into our new homes takes special care in the build and experience. Most new threads I see posted here are inexperienced woodworkers already in trouble with a project and most started from bad technique and wrong MC.

I build my sawmill shed with a combo of timber and post framing. I sided my small farmhouse (lap style) with 5/8" x 8" sassafras with a fastening technique that allowed firm set BUT full float (takes 2 nails or screws per stud). I like screws due not backing out IF correctly installed. All this I personally sawed on my bandmill.

Izzy I didn't mean to highjack your thread, just thank Jay for his info and guidance.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy434 said:


> I have a sawmill. Timberking B20. Older sawmill, but she cuts straight.
> 
> I have a couple tractors with loaders.
> 
> ...



Izzy ....THIS sounds like a doable dream with doable projections!!! ALWAYS remember, it's your dream...the more time and research you put into it the more it's likely to happen. ALL dreams require dedication and hard work!!! Have FUN!!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey Izzy,

You are most welcome...Please enjoy, these are some great books and some of these authors have been friends, collegues and mentors for decades. A few just retired from teaching last year, and a few have now left us. You reading and taking this information into your skill sets will keep the traditions alive. For that, I'm the one that gives thanks for your interest.

The Spruce sound like a possible windfall for you possibly? These sound like the are probably Norway Spruce. A lot of those got planted as plantation trees over the last 100 years. Some discount them as "trash trees" but for Greenwood Workers there really isn't such a thing as a "Trash Tree" just the skills to use what you get to good effect, and within the nature of the wood.



> I have a sawmill. Timberking B20. Older sawmill, but she cuts straight.


Yep...That will get a lot of work done for you...



> I am hoping if I come up with a good plan, I can present it to the board, and see if I can get the community going on something really good.


Well...it sounds like you have a heck of a project planned for yourself. I have designed a number of Challenge and Obstacle courses over the decades for the Military and private groups as well. Along those lines I have worked with the AEE, WEA, ACCT, and the Appilachian Trail Conference to design trail camps and cabins. The Google Link below is to the Velvet Rock Shelter near Dartmouth college that several of my students cut a number of years ago. It is a mix of Korean, Japanese and Nordic styles all rolled into one small frame. It took the students a little less than 3 weeks (cutting part time) to make this frame from scattered boulders and standing trees...

Velvet Rocks Shelter



> Could these trees be turned into rustic cabins for our campground?


Absolutely!! 

The Velvet Rocks Shelter is a Spruce, Hemlock, and White Pine frame.



> Or is that idea too complicated?


To me?...No...To you now? Yes...But nothing stays complicated for long if you take your time to plan things out well and pace yourself as you take steps towards the plan. Don't get overwhelmed by the big picture...take it on Bolt/Cant, slab, and board at a time and you should have little issue...



> Could I square up some longs and notch them out like the old Lincoln Logs, and build some kind of primitive frame, and cut boards for the community members to nail up?


Odd that you should use the term "Lincoln Logs." I started back in the 70's in a pretty serious manner at 13 year old Apprenticing with Old Order Amish as a traditional Barnwright. I also work (at that time) as an Historical Reenactor for Lincoln Log Cabin State Park helping restore that President's childhood log cabin home in South Central Illinois. I have design, and restored a number of different cabin forms if that is really your interest...



> What are the possibilities?


For me...I would push you in the direction of an actual timber frame or traditional hybrid style of log and timber frame like Piece sur Piece, not to far north of you in Northern Michigan.



> Any ideas for simple primitive easy type structures welcome..I don't know if it's just a crazy dream, or a real possibility.


Read through some of the stuff in this post, look at some of the pictures and let me know what gets you excited...and no...you are not crazy at all!!

Good luck,

j


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the warm welcome!! Much appreciated Brother!



> I don't normally push the green/fresh wood side of building due to most won't take the time to learn...


Tim, I read that far in your quote and stopped to write...

It is too true...The effort is (was?) not worth the effort when I was younger...

I gave up years ago trying to teach folks Greenwood working, and after the passing of a few dear collegues/mentors that really pushed me to not end up dead myself without getting this stuff written down, and/or taught, I started trying again. I think when I was younger, I was too often dismissed for my views. Now that I have gray hairs and have several decades under my belt doing this work, I am not so readily dismissed now. Some of this country's leading authorities on the subject and founding members of the Timber framing Guild, have really inspired me to make a greater effort in...Helping where I can and when someone shows interest. 

It is, as you say, all about the "correct techniques." Further you are most correct that just about everything one can find in a book or workshop is aimed at "Dry Lumber" woodworking. Even though folks talk about wood movement...they really don't understand it as well as they should.

Now that I have a few decades under my belt teaching (and art and craft in its own right!) I feel much more comfortable guiding folks through the process...which if taken in small steps...really isn't that difficult, whether building a timber frame structure or even a slab wood harvest table and chairs...Again it is all in understanding wood movement and technique.

Wow...Sassay Frass...!!!...I lOOVVEE me some Spice Tree. I have done a few floors, Kitchen Cabinets and even a drying shed for meats out of that species...One of my all time favorites...

There are methods for laying Lap Styles of siding where you use zero metal at all...but I'm like you for my day to day (client paid projects for the most part) I only use screws mainly from GRK. With these I still probably would have used a single screw system and/or panelized system of lap siding that hung on the wall with traditional cleats that I would have screw on (or wood tunneled/pegged) 

I sure you and I could just ramble on for hours...!!!...ha, ha

Me too...sorry Izzy, that I side tracked!


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

No problem Tim and Jay. Keep rambling and side tracking all you want. Meanwhile the rest of us are learning.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy434 said:


> No problem Tim and Jay. Keep rambling and side tracking all you want. Meanwhile the rest of us are learning.


LOL Izzy.....rambling would be all I'd have with a few nuggets compared to Jay and the experience.. I'd rather have good experience and common sense than any "theory" from .....well I'm stopping there... 'NUFF Said"

Here is pics of the sassafras siding and shingle ends (hand cut all 400+) and 2 of the saw shed framing.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

By the Creator Tim...!!!...Good stuff there.

I do believe I sees meself an Oscar hiding in the shadows of that saw shed! Great choice. That Oscar line of mills from Hudson are a fantastic saw series for amature and professional alike. We may be getting a Swing Blade this year and another Oscar for doing specialty slab milling and timber frames.

Are the Shingles Sassafrass too? I see your 2 screw pattern for your lap siding. Not bad Brother, and a standard pattern on many after about 1880 on many a stick frame. I think there might be some more timber framing projects in your feature...Do give send me an email when you think that might happen.

For anyone reading this, I can't stress enough that finding a sawyer that threats there wood the way Tim does is priceless. I just spent the last 40 minutes going through his website...EXCELLENT...If you are to get (and work with dry wood) that is the way it should be dried. I would wager that Tim hasn't ever case hardened a piece of wood in his life...or at least not recently. The last time I saw rolling presentation racks for wood like Tim's was in Europe, and Japan...Great website Tim, and some fantastically treated and cared for wood...I hope to pay you a visit some day. 

Thanks again for posting that Tim!

Blessings,

j


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

OK, so I'm back to my project. Tomorrow I will take some pictures of the space I am building over my house, so you can get a visual idea what it is I am doing. 

Basically, I want to side the house with lumber from the sawmill. I started out thinking I wanted to do the board and batten /vertical boards. Then I thought about running the boards horizontally, overlapping each board with the next. But now after reading more, I am wondering if the board and batten would be better because of the shrinking.


What I have around here is lots of spruce, Cherry, Red Oak, and White Pine and Walnut. So these are my options. What I don't know is the best way to cut and stack it, or do I even need to stack it to dry for a while before securing it to the structure?

Can you offer any suggestions about which species would be the best choice? And basically how should I proceed?

I like the look of Tim's Sassafras siding. How did you deal with the shrinkage Tim? Did you dry the wood or hang it green?



Thanks


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Izzy,



> What I have around here is lots of spruce, Cherry, Red Oak, and White Pine and Walnut. So these are my options. What I don't know is the best way to cut and stack it, or do I even need to stack it to dry for a while before securing it to the structure? Can you offer any suggestions about which species would be the best choice? And basically how should I proceed?


All these species have been (historically) use successfully for siding in several forms. Shakes, Sawn Shingle, lap styles, and of course the ubiquitous and much loved different Board and Batten styles. 

"How to proceed," can vary on many factors from quality of lumber produced to your current skill sets...as well as structure it will hang on. Photos of that will be very helpful in dialing in a design approach no matter which species(s) you select.



> ...I thought about running the boards horizontally, overlapping each board with the next. But now after reading more, I am wondering if the board and batten would be better because of the shrinking...


I very much like B&B especially for a person new to green woodworking. This brings us to the point of do you have to season the wood. Letting wood sit and relax just a bit before use is seldom a bad thing, but it is not a necessity. What is important is how you treat the trees after you cut them down and start turning them into Bolts and Cants for further processing into your siding. Often (very often) bad boards are made...not grown...by the neglect of how the wood is treated. Reading the tree (and the grain in it) is also a big part of the process and since this has started, we can go into each step, its pitfalls and the many different things to choose from about the challenges faced...

So before we get into all that...lets see where you want to hang this siding, how much area you have to cover, and what the architecture is like that you will hang it on...

Regards,

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy434 said:


> OK, so I'm back to my project. Tomorrow I will take some pictures of the space I am building over my house, so you can get a visual idea what it is I am doing.
> 
> Basically, I want to side the house with lumber from the sawmill. I started out thinking I wanted to do the board and batten /vertical boards. Then I thought about running the boards horizontally, overlapping each board with the next. But now after reading more, I am wondering if the board and batten would be better because of the shrinking.
> 
> ...


There's pros and cons to either style....with that said any style has them, you weigh out what your willing to long term deal with.

To protect my investment the swiss have large overhangs and less wood damage. I chose 4' gable end overhangs and the sides ended at approx 3' (20' rafter at 4/12 at 16' span). Yes I did stack (on stickers) and let dry while doing my part time sawing and framing. (my framework is commercial produced standard pine and fir framing).

With B&B there's less waste all around in sawing and install. With lap there's more waste in the sawing to get a set size/width. I personally think the lap style is more water shedding in driving rains BUT BOTH have survived for years IF done correctly. I just this week looked at a B&B job someone else done with no regard to flashing and regard to water splash now homeowner is going to have to pay out big bucks to repair when 99% of this could've been avoided with proper flashing and a 4" splash dry area at bottom edge....wood also needs air to live and breathe.

Izzy, to do this project RIGHT you need to get a few of the books Jay recommended. We can advise only x amount without you doing a in depth study and circumstances. I study a new project from multiple sources and then choose my direction on install. We're kinda like teachers....we can tell you what direction, symptoms, expectations BUT the student still has to do the homework of studying.

Have fun and enjoy!!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Boy Tim,

Talk about a great "tang team" and we haven't even met...yet.

I woke up this morning thinking of several things that I felt like I had either neglected to share in the last post or new I was going to have to bring up later...

Izzy, I couldn't have written a better follow up...and there is so much more as Tim has reflected... 

Look forward to more details of your plane, and questions, but as Tim has reflected, there is only so much that can be achieve on a Forum...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

(for the 2nd time of typing this, occasionally it just disappears prior to posting)

Jay, thank you for the nice comments. I too am looking forward to meeting you and we will soon. I'm one whom always enjoy increasing my knowledge on things I enjoy. It seems we have lots we can just chat about above just the basics and not get all "bum fuzzled" about the topics.

I'm a carpenter by trade BUT that's just a drop in the bucket of other things I've learned....welder...electrician...plumber....sheet metal....fabrication etc., etc. along with photography, retired EMT, retired volunteer fire chief, some basic basket weaving (I can't find the pictures BUT I weaved a basket as a joke from 1/8" x 2" slices of sassafras we had sawn at a trade show (I was a primary Hud-son dealer, just parttime when needed now) and someone jokingly asked IF we were going to weave a basket with them). 

The timber frame was my first....lots to learn and understand with the joints and wood movement BUT my older days of dabbling in some basic furniture helped.

Again thanks.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hey Jay,

What do you think of the way these guys built their privative cabin?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf4yTTddOtFgVTCYW_Pbo9Q/feed

Trying to figure out the simplest way.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Logs take quite a while to "sit down", to settle, even if they have dried for 5 years before you start the build.
The tool variety isn't quite what you expect in a typical wood shop. These people have everything to look at:

http://www.logbuildingtools.ca/contact.html

Here are some nice cabin designs:

https://www.pioneerloghomesofbc.com/galleries-videos/

Outdoors, stacked and stickered under cover, even 5/4 won't move much after a year, no matter which species.
Sidewalk superintendent that I am, I'd want sawn lumber for the job.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Izzy,

If you're asking for an honest critique...The get a big A!! for there effort in putting together these videos and being honest about this cabin beging the first they have done...For technique...I don't think I could go above C or C+...

As to method, this is an..."interpretation"...of Piece sur Piece style that I linked you to already in a previous post. Like so much on YouTube that is out there now, my biggest worry is too many folks already think because it is in "video form" that the method must be correct. I'm not sure why folks think this, but like so many subjects, just because it is in a video (or book) does not make it accurate or complete information.

There are so many things missing or out of context in what these videos portray, that I couldn't list them all here effectively. (e.g. sills not dug in properly, splining pegs in the wrong and/or inefficient location in side of floor boards, floor board orientation, kerfing method not complete, etc, etc...and that's before we move into the rest of the frame...) 

Nor should I be overtly critical of their work. This is a "living experiment" that they are doing, and I compliment them for their efforts. I don't think they are trying to demonstrate a "how to" process...just what they are..."trying"...to do while they learn themselves. Much of what they have done will survive to some extent, yet issues will arise in time...which for them I think is part of the process of experiential learning...

Hope that helps...


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Yes, I especially like that Piece Sur Piece style you mentioned. This is the only video I have found so far that shows how this is done. Perhaps there are more directions in one of the books you suggested. I like the idea. It seems like a form of tongue and groove.

I am concerned however about using this style for the small log cabins I want to build. Also, wondering if cutting these large "grooves" in two side of a corner log might end up with the triangle piece between cracking and breaking off as it dries. 

I wonder if I could cut the "tongue" on the corner posts instead, and the "groove" on the horizontal logs in between. Would that be more stable?


Where can I find more guidance with this style? Would Piece sur Piece be a good design for my log cabin idea?


Also, I have some photos to post, and not sure how to do that. Is there a special way to add attachments to my reply?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Izzy,



> I especially like that Piece Sur Piece style..Perhaps there are more directions in one of the books you suggested...


Most of this information is in many different books on log and timber frame building, that you will have to read and piece together for yourself, if you don't find someone to teach you the ins and outs of the craft.

As for concerns, I'm not sure why? This method has been around for centuries to good effect. Checking and some splitting in timber frame and log structures is part of it. Mitigating it is part of learning to read wood and understand it properly. If there was any "breaking off as it dries" something has been done incorrectly, or an improper log selected.



> I wonder if I could cut the "tongue" on the corner posts instead, and the "groove" on the horizontal logs in between. Would that be more stable?


One of the chief pitfalls of starting in the traditional crafts is getting trapped with thinking you will come up with a "better method." As I tell students all the time. When you have mastered a system of building and know it thoroughly, at that time, you...might?...have the skills to improve something. There is very little I have seen in my past 40 years of traditional work that I could improve on very much. Do differently perhaps, or from a different cultural perspective...but not actually better. 

As to putting the "tongue" on the post instead of the infill log...When you really start learning about how wood works, it will be a glaring..."ah ha"...moment why that would be a very bad idea...

I would note there is a traditional...*Key Splinning.*..method that is sometimes used with Piece sur Piece. 



> Where can I find more guidance with this style? Would Piece sur Piece be a good design for my log cabin idea?


In quite a few different books is my go to response and taking classes from someone that works in that style. I tend to not recommend Log Architecture (in general) to most clients as it is not the most useful application of wood and consumes a lot of it compared to timber framing and other system. 

Piece sur Piece being a mix of log and timber frame is one of my favorites, as is most Post and Plank methods. Looking online to get some ideas is a good place to start in figuring out if this method will work best for you. 



> Also, I have some photos to post, and not sure how to do that. Is there a special way to add attachments to my reply?


I will let the moderator explain the "insert image" (a button on your message bar) methods for this forum in more detail if you require it. 

Regards,

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Jay I sent you a PM.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

I am trying to post a picture. Hopefully it'll work. This is the front and one side of this project I'm working on. This is the building that I want to put siding on either board and batten or the horizontal lap siding. All suggestions are welcome. - I want to do wood on the inside too on the walls and ceiling. no drywall


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Rainscreen and Cold Roofs*

Hi Izzy,

Good to see some pictures.

Not that it matters, but did you build this?

Before we get started, the first thing I noted was the House Wrap. I won't work with a client unless they give me a liability waiver holding me harmless if a House Wrap is demanded for by them, an architect, GC, or anyone else associated with the project. It is not a matter of if, but when these House Wrapped structures begin to have issues with interstitial moisture issues, black mold and/or related challenges associated with them.

Now that I have that out of the way, it looks like this is a simple 2 (3?) floor 2x6 stud platform framed structure. Besides helping you with the siding, I would like to recommend that you take advantage now, at this stage of construction to go for a Draft Proof insulation design. If I am not using a natural insulation modality the only commercially viable insulation I will use in my architecture is Mineral Wool. It has a 150 proven history of effectiveness, and does not fall to the many other issues, foam, cellulose and spun glass insulations have. On my designs, I have R15 in the floors, R30 in the walls, and R60 in the ceilings. In your climate zone I would never go below 10/25/50 for those three structural diaphragms that get insulated in most structures. Just food for thought, and if you want more information I can share it.

Now for the siding. If you are going to go with a Greenwood method, a Rainscreen Wall is the only type that it can go on. Whether dry or green wood, I don't design-build structures without Cold Roof and Rainscreen elements. I would also suggest again the Draft Proof design (which further negates the need for the House Wrap, by adding at least 1/2 (1.5" for your area is better) of Mineral Wool continuous cladding to the outside of the structure to form a solid Thermal Break. With stut wall architecture the Thermal Bridging is tremendous and it knocks down wall efficiency substantially. Over this is hung the Rainscreen grid that allows for air circulation on both sides of the siding. I use a furring strip and batten assembly because I tend to only use vertical siding methods like shingle or Board and Batten. Vertical siding last much longer (centuries) compared to most horizontal siding methods. The air gap is at minimum 1" on the walls I design. If you really want a horizontal system I would recommend a Waney Edge or Adirondack siding type. It is the only horzontil siding besides Riven that I have ever done.

That should get you going with plans and more questions


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi Jay,

Yes, you are correct. 2nd story room, 2"x6" framing, about 25'x25' and 25 feet tall at the highest point, I don't know why I made it so high. It's really hard to work on. I started this project right after my father died, on a tight budget, and I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. I just felt I needed to build something in honor of him. Well, one thing led to another, and I think I bit off more than I can chew. But……here I am, and it needs to get finished….somehow. 

This is why I offered to pay you for your help. I am pretty green at this.

I ordered three books from Amazon. Hopefully, I can gain much from reading the pros.

In response to what you wrote, a couple questions…….


Are you saying I should remove the House Wrap altogether?

And it sounds like you are saying I should install 1.5" of mineral wool panels instead on the outside?

Am I understand you?

Izzy


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hello again - I seem to have lost touch with Jay C. White Cloud. He was asking me to email him directly because my questions might not be all that applicable to others, and then somehow I lost touch with him. Perhaps I don't have the correct email address.

Jay, if you are reading this…….I was getting all ready to do whatever you told me to do regarding my siding project, and now not sure what happened. Tim are you still there? No sure what to think.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy434 said:


> Hello again - I seem to have lost touch with Jay C. White Cloud. He was asking me to email him directly because my questions might not be all that applicable to others, and then somehow I lost touch with him. Perhaps I don't have the correct email address.
> 
> Jay, if you are reading this…….I was getting all ready to do whatever you told me to do regarding my siding project, and now not sure what happened. Tim are you still there? No sure what to think.


Izzy, I left him a post here that I'd PM'd him BUT I've never got a response...It was after he had 25 posts so he should see the info icon alert him when logged in. I think in one his latest posts on this site he mentioned going to be out of pocket due to work I think....IF you get a response via email get him or his permission to pm me his email address.

Thanks.

PS hows the clearing projected project going???? I enjoyed your pics of your house...looks like a style I'd build....I built my house 20+ yrs ago on a beach style plan I laid out (the row of windows across the top)....44'x44' split level...I was planning all open bottom with redwood siding on piers then at last minute decided to brick it all....best thing I ever done...warm winter vehicle and cool summer cars = lots of year round dry storage!!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Izzy and Tim,

Sorry, but I haven't gotten private emails from either of you. Please try again...thanks. 

Tim, I sent you a rather long email on 27 March, but never got a reply to it? We seem to be missing something? I checked Spam file for both of you and nothing there either.

My emails is public on this forum and I am placing it here as well.

[email protected]

Hope to hear from you both soon.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Jay, I'll check into this tonight as I don't recall anything coming in here, via my contact on my website nor email.....BUT odd things have happened before here.

Have a Great day!!!


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi Jay,

I did receive your private message to email you, and I did, but never heard back. I was afraid that I was asking too many questions and you didn't want to write back. So, now I feel better realizing that Tim is having the same trouble. I will try again. 

In the mean time, I have a paying job. I have been commissioned by a local psychoanalyst to build her a "couch" out of live edge cedar logs. I have never done this before, but I told her ok. I started by making a simply sketch of how it might could be built, and I wonder if you all might have some comments on the design.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Here is a rough sketch of what I think she wants. I am thinking that I will just screw it all together. Do you think I should use adhesive as well?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Izzy,

I get your concept from the sketch...I would not suggest following the path of screws for that at all.

Please send me an email directly to the address provided. I still have not received one, and have from other here. I do get a lot of volume each day, so I know my email works...Keep trying till you get through please. Cut and past my email address from my online business card or other web location. I'm not difficult to reach as I get at least 5 "cold call" emails a day from clients/students seeking info...

To be clear Izzy, I need and email...not a Private Message on this forum...

Good luck!


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Kebony - thank you for sending the link. Those are some really interesting ideas. It's hard to tell how they did it. It looks like they've got some spacers in between the boards. I wonder how that works.

Izzy


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Izzy..??...I believe KeBony is a sales agent front for selling siding product...In other words a Troll Spammer fronting for a company selling product.

KeBony, if I am incorrect, I do apologize and would like to read more technical information on the systems you use for mounting these different siding types, what are the lumber species, are they sustainably harvest, and any other info you could share about how you personally do siding. 

I would also like to know what Rain Screen system you are demonstraing in seveal of the photos?

Regards,

j


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Jay 

I keep trying to email you at [email protected] . 5 times total. 

I even tried emailing you from my neighbors email address just in case there was something wrong with mine. 

Maybe you could try emailing me. Maybe we'll have better luck connecting that way.

[email protected]


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy....You gotta spell it right "O" not a "A" [email protected] If your mail delivery didn't prompt you not deliverable then somebody incorrect recieved it....it happens.


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Thanks Tim. I finally got it right. Duh!!


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Izzy I've probably done it too...I got forgiven and so I don't have to remember it...LOL!!!! The good thing about mistakes, learn from them,admit them and forget you ever made it, just do it right the next time!!! The Lord is Good!!!


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

I have rough sawn white pine boards ready for some type of sealer before applying to my house. Any suggestions what would work best? Has anyone ever used diesel fuel mixed with motor oil?


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## woodworker56 (Jan 24, 2018)

Izzy, 
you don't say what kind of building or exterior wall you are using the oak on. When I was a youngster on the farm in the 60's, dad had white oak milled and we used it green to build corn cribs for ear corn. No paint or anything other than a tin roof. They lasted probably 20 years before we tore them down. Even then many of those boards were hard as nails. Of course, we wanted the spaces to be open between the boards to allow the air to circulate, so shrinkage was not a concern. If you are building a corn crib, use white oak and go for it. 

Steve


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## Izzy434 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi Steve, 

I have lots of White Pine, Elm, and some Cherry. I am thinking about using a vertical board and batten siding on to an addition to my house. No corn crib, but I figured the batten would cover up any shrinkage since I will only let the wood dry for a few weeks before I install it

Any thoughts?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Izzy434 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I have lots of White Pine, Elm, and some Cherry. I am thinking about using a vertical board and batten siding on to an addition to my house. No corn crib, but I figured the batten would cover up any shrinkage since I will only let the wood dry for a few weeks before I install it
> 
> Any thoughts?


Hello,

Other than what we discussed already on finishes...I would add that if you go with B&B method...I would offer a more traditional approach of using a wider batten (2" to 2.5") wide...and...the single nail approach...

"The single nail" allows wood to expand and contract with seasonal changes. There are several traditional approaches with the "single nail, that I have seen and/or used over the decades...

1. A nail in the center of the batten at each nail off point and one in the center of the wider board...

2. A nail to hang the wide board at its very top, and no others, then a single nail in the batten...

3. The third method, which I rather like, goes with the wider batten system. The wide board receives a "tacking nail" (later removed) that isn't driven in all the way some place near the center of the board to hold it plumb vertical. Then a bit wider spacing between these wide boards to accommodate 2 nails holding on the wider batten...

On all these system it is vital that the nails in the batten do not catch the wider board or seasonal contractions can't take place properly. 

It is also important to keep track of grain orientation, but that is a much longer subject for a forum post...

Typically the wood is quarter sawn for best results when regarding these traditional systems. Other wise "bark side out" is the prefered method but this varies regionally in style, thought the most enduring siding is almost always bark side out. I would also add that "oiling" both sides is best if a finish is going to be applied at all...Treating only one side will effect the way the wood moves, often in a negative fashion as the finish on one side creates uneven rates of shrinkage thereby causing uneven stresses in the wood...

Good Luck,

j


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