# Oneida Super Dust Deputy, Thein Baffle, Jet Vortex Cone etc...



## Marv

I received my new Super Dust Deputy from Oneida and threw together a temporary setup today using a Delta 50-760 I recently picked up on CL. Once I install the new canister filter and give it a good run I will post my observations of differences between this, my Delta 50-850A with internal Thein baffle, 50-850A with side inlet Thein baffle and the Jet Vortex Cone I managed to get a hold of (I machine a lot of MDF and my goal is to not have to clean the filter so often).


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## thegrgyle

sounds good... Can't wait to hear the results


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## Dave Paine

I am also very interested in the results.

I like the cannister filters - as long as I do not have to clean out. :icon_smile:


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## Marv

Unfortunately I was not be able to do the extensive comparison I had planned due to a couple of unforeseen issues that arose. First problem was the Jet Vortex Cone did not fit the Delta 50-850 properly since the opening in the internal ring is quite a bit larger than on the Jet. I made a bracket extension however I think the larger opening had something to do with the poor performance so I don't think it is fair to judge it in that situation. Also, I have no numeric data to back the suction loss noted since I wasn't able to borrow the testing gear needed before the 50-850 sold on Craigslist (it sold way quicker than anticipated). The only observations I can make are based on some seriously NON scientific testing measures as noted below...

Thien baffles with Delta 50-850 (I have not had time to disassemble everything so I could try the side inlet Thien with the 50-760)..

The side inlet "before the blower" baffle design had quite a bit more suction loss than the internal "after the blower" design which I anticipated from all the reading I had done (based solely on "hand over inlet" observations from my buddy as well as myself)

Both designs did allow the dust collector to run longer before any noticeable suction loss (my main goal since I machine a lot of fine dust producing MDF) however in both designs I had to clean the filter more often than I anticipated again based on the reading I had done. 

After cleaning the filter with the flappers I found that within a few seconds the suction would drop again. We determined this was caused by the dust from the "flapped" filter collecting on the ring inside the dust collector and as soon as it was turned on again it would suck the dust right back into the filter. The only way I found to remedy this was to remove the filter and brush the dust through the hole into the bag. When I brushed the dust off of the ring when using the internal design I found it landed on the baffle and the options were to stick my hand in so I could brush it through the slot or just turn the dust collector on. Turning the dust collector on with all that dust on top of the baffle caused an "overload" I believe as it just sucked everything back up into the filter (please note that I did NOT add the "chimney" as some have in the internal design however I'm not sure it would have made any difference concerning the dust collecting on the ring and causing me to have to remove the filter). Of course dust collecting on the ring would not be an issue with certain other type dust collector configurations.

Super Dust Deputy with Delta 50-760

I expected a large suction loss due to the resistance of the cyclone in line however I found it did not lose quite as much as the external Thien and maybe a bit more than the internal Thien (again based on "hand over inlet" with/without the cyclone attached to the 50-760). After filling the ShopVac drum nearly to the top (about 10 gallons I believe) and shaking the daylights out of the filter bag I found there was a barely noticeable amount of fine dust settled at the bottom which leads me to believe the advertised claim of 99% + separation is pretty accurate. 

My conclusion is the Super Dust Deputy Cyclone was well worth the cost for my situation/objectives however I still believe the Thien is a viable option for many. 

BTW, I noticed a similar turbulence apparently from the opposite direction pre rotation which causes performance loss that retired2 on the Thien forum spoke of in regards to his top hat design when close coupled to his Delta 50-760 (my configuration also rotates in the opposite direction and is close coupled)

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.0
http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=828.0

After reading of his solution (an "air straightener") I spoke to a friend that specializes in air handling systems and he said that the tubes like retired2 used would work great or I could make a "straightening vane" from thin metal in the shape of an X which is what I did. I plan to experiment with different lengths and will post again once I figure out how to install the vane solidly but still be able to remove it until I find the best length.


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## woodnthings

*Yea ... finally!*

I wonder why it takes an individual woodworker to put together a "test" like this rather than a woodworking magazine or even a dust collector manufacturer. :blink:

Thanks for your efforts. :yes: There are 2 versions of the super dust deputy, one is 
metal, the other plastic like yours...I wonder what's the difference in performance?










Also how did you acquire a Jet Vortex cone? They don't sell them separately as of my last research. Thanks.


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## TimPa

woodnthings said:


> I wonder why it take an individual woodworker to put together a "test" like this rather than a woodworking magazine or even a dust collector manufacturer. :blink:
> 
> Thanks for your efforts. :yes:


I agree, Bill.


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## Dave Paine

Marv, I have a Jet, and if you want to send me the vortex cone, I will install to test vs my Thien baffle, then return the cone to you.

Yesterday I removed my cannister. The steel cone was clear. I then used the flapper and observed the same as you. Fine dust particles covered the steel cone and the internal Thien baffle. I knew it would go back in the cannister if I turned on the collector, so I removed this with the shop vac.

I then put the cannister on the floor and rotated the flapper for a few minutes, then used the shop vac to clean up the dust. Not zero dust, but all fines and not very deep, and the pleats of the cannister were not clogged as would have been the case without the Thien baffle. This is the first time I looked at the cannister since I installed the Thien baffle back in Oct/Nov last year.

Someone else mentioned blowing out the cannister with a leaf blower. Sounds like a good idea, but the outside temperature was just above freezing, so I decided to leave this extra step until the outside temperature warms up.


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## retired2

Marv,

Thanks for the effort. I have been waiting for you assessment of the top hat Thien versus the Super Dust Deputy. I kinda expected what the outcome would be, but you can never be sure. I sure wish you had some hard data - I might have considered replacing my separator with a SDD.

Your 50-760 looks brand new. If you got it for a decent price that was a great find. I'm guessing the SDD has no baffles in the outlet to act as an air straightener, and I would also guess the SDD imparts a spin to the exiting air the same as a Thien separator. As you know from reading my posts and seeing my test data, you could probably squeeze a little more performance out of your combination by adding an air straightener.

I don't think there is anything magical about the air straightener design other than it's length. I think you could use simple crossed sheet metal vanes in an "X" configuration, or plastic tubes as I did. I doubt anyone could measure the small differences in frictional losses between the different designs. I can't give you any advice on the length of the air straightener because I don't remember reading any industry advice on the subject. I have seen several people speculate that it probably works fine if the length is 2-3 times the diameter. I'd agree with the guess, but I have no data to support the opinion.

I suspect a call to Oneida might answer everyone's questions about the difference in performance between the plastic and metal model. Again, I am just guessing, but I suspect the performance is the same, and the plastic model just shows externally what is concealed internally by the metal model. The air ramp is a case in point. The differences between the two are probably due to the way each is fabricated, one welded and one molded. If there is any difference in performance it might be the difference in friction losses with painted metal versus molded plastic, and that is probably small.

Marv, in your photo you have a lid on the top outlet of the 50-760 and the filter bag where the plastic waste bag would normally be. Is there a reason you are doing that? Are you planning to put a pleated filter on top?


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## Marv

woodnthings said:


> I wonder why it takes an individual woodworker to put together a "test" like this rather than a woodworking magazine or even a dust collector manufacturer. :blink:
> 
> Thanks for your efforts. :yes: There are 2 versions of the super dust deputy, one is
> metal, the other plastic like yours...I wonder what's the difference in performance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also how did you acquire a Jet Vortex cone? They don't sell them separately as of my last research. Thanks.


You're welcome Bill and you are correct that you can't buy the cone separately (I tried). I was making calls/inquiries all over during my research and with dumb luck I just happened to come across this one!


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## Marv

Dave Paine said:


> Marv, I have a Jet, and if you want to send me the vortex cone, I will install to test vs my Thien baffle, then return the cone to you.
> 
> Yesterday I removed my cannister. The steel cone was clear. I then used the flapper and observed the same as you. Fine dust particles covered the steel cone and the internal Thien baffle. I knew it would go back in the cannister if I turned on the collector, so I removed this with the shop vac.
> 
> I then put the cannister on the floor and rotated the flapper for a few minutes, then used the shop vac to clean up the dust. Not zero dust, but all fines and not very deep, and the pleats of the cannister were not clogged as would have been the case without the Thien baffle. This is the first time I looked at the cannister since I installed the Thien baffle back in Oct/Nov last year.
> 
> Someone else mentioned blowing out the cannister with a leaf blower. Sounds like a good idea, but the outside temperature was just above freezing, so I decided to leave this extra step until the outside temperature warms up.



Doh! I knew you had a Jet dust collector Dave but never thought to have you give the cone a try and unfortunately I have already passed it on to someone else (I'll see if he is interested in doing some experimenting).


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## toolguy1000

retired2 said:


> ,.......I have been waiting for you assessment of the top hat Thien versus the Super Dust Deputy......


unless i'm mistaken , that separator is not really a top hat design as it's baffle sits withing the pre-separator drum. my understanding is that a top hat sits "atop" the gust collection drum with no part of the thien baffle extending below the rim of the separator container.



Marv said:


> You're welcome Bill and you are correct that you can't buy the cone separately (I tried). I was making calls/inquiries all over during my research and with dumb luck I just happened to come across this one!


the cone is now apparently available from jet:

https://parts.jettools.com/SearchResults.aspx?s=DC1100-47

i contacted them re: out of stock status and was advised that the inventory was scheduled for replenishment in mid may, '13.


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## Marv

retired2, I will answer below in bold...


retired2 said:


> Marv,
> 
> Thanks for the effort. I have been waiting for you assessment of the top hat Thien versus the Super Dust Deputy. I kinda expected what the outcome would be, but you can never be sure. I sure wish you had some hard data - I might have considered replacing my separator with a SDD.
> 
> _*You're welcome and thank you for the great posts you have made!*_ _*I do wish I could have provided more data however it just didn't work out.*_
> 
> Your 50-760 looks brand new. If you got it for a decent price that was a great find. I'm guessing the SDD has no baffles in the outlet to act as an air straightener, and I would also guess the SDD imparts a spin to the exiting air the same as a Thien separator. As you know from reading my posts and seeing my test data, you could probably squeeze a little more performance out of your combination by adding an air straightener.
> 
> _*The 50-760 came from a contractor that bought it specifically for one job and then he passed it on to me for a single c-note!*_ _*(my guess is he had already charged it to the job)*_ :smile:
> 
> I don't think there is anything magical about the air straightener design other than it's length. I think you could use simple crossed sheet metal vanes in an "X" configuration, or plastic tubes as I did. I doubt anyone could measure the small differences in frictional losses between the different designs. I can't give you any advice on the length of the air straightener because I don't remember reading any industry advice on the subject. I have seen several people speculate that it probably works fine if the length is 2-3 times the diameter. I'd agree with the guess, but I have no data to support the opinion.
> 
> _*That's basically what my buddy said and I made the X since I had some thin sheet metal around. I have also read about the 2-3 times the diameter however the tech at Oneida recommended a distance of about 12 inches from the fan to the cyclone without a straightener (my guess is that distance is needed for the air to "straighten out" itself before hitting the impeller) so I'm thinking the vane doesn't need to be very long.*_
> 
> I suspect a call to Oneida might answer everyone's questions about the difference in performance between the plastic and metal model. Again, I am just guessing, but I suspect the performance is the same, and the plastic model just shows externally what is concealed internally by the metal model. The air ramp is a case in point. The differences between the two are probably due to the way each is fabricated, one welded and one molded. If there is any difference in performance it might be the difference in friction losses with painted metal versus molded plastic, and that is probably small.
> 
> _*I can comment a bit on that since I originally purchased the metal one from Woodcraft. The day I received it I went to the Oneida site looking for some accessories and happened to see the new molded plastic one which was available for pre-order. The first thing I noticed was the air ramp which the metal one does NOT have inside. I was told by a tech at Oneida that the performance was similar however since Woodcraft would take the metal one back and even refund return shipping I decided to get the new one.*_
> 
> Marv, in your photo you have a lid on the top outlet of the 50-760 and the filter bag where the plastic waste bag would normally be. Is there a reason you are doing that? Are you planning to put a pleated filter on top?
> 
> _*This is a "temporary" setup however the permanent set up will be similar to keep the height low. My inspiration came from a JDS Cyclone (seen below) and the plan is to build a new stand similar to that one, install the canister filter on the bottom like the bag is now, leave the plate on top and make a "clean out" box below the filter which is open on both ends.*_
> 
> http://jdstools.com/jdscyclonetwostagedustcollectionsystems.aspx


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## Marv

toolguy1000 said:


> unless i'm mistaken , that separator is not really a top hat design as it's baffle sits withing the pre-separator drum. my understanding is that a top hat sits "atop" the gust collection drum with no part of the thien baffle extending below the rim of the separator container.
> 
> 
> 
> the cone is now apparently available from jet:
> 
> https://parts.jettools.com/SearchResults.aspx?s=DC1100-47
> 
> i contacted them re: out of stock status and was advised that the inventory was scheduled for replenishment in mid may, '13.


I think the "side inlet with the extension" actually makes mine similar to a "top hat" design in that there is no fitting hanging down inside the chamber obstructing air flow (not shown in the picture is the center tube that extends down into the chamber).

Also, I ordered the cone after seeing that link posted a while back (I think you actually posted it) however when I called to check my order status (I never received shipping confirmation) I was told the site mistakenly accepted my order and the part was only available to dealers as a warranty replacement. Not sure if that has changed however I was also told there were no plans to make it available as a retro fit.


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## Shop Dad

Marv, thanks for posting the information you have. I agree with Bill that it's strange none of the WW magazines have really done a deep dive into this. Hopefully we are on the cusp of getting these improvements in shipping DCs.


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## retired2

toolguy1000 said:


> unless i'm mistaken , that separator is not really a top hat design as it's baffle sits withing the pre-separator drum. my understanding is that a top hat sits "atop" the gust collection drum with no part of the thien baffle extending below the rim of the separator container.


You are correct "toolguy". It is not a top hat as most people know it. I remembered the side inlet which is typical of most top hats. For this reason, I suspect Marv's performs more like a top hat than a trash can separator.


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## retired2

Marv said:


> retired2, I will answer below in bold...


A couple thoughts Marv.

Knowing that the plastic SDD has the air ramp, but the metal one does not, I would have made the same choice as you. They put that ramp there for a reason, and I would hope it is better separation of fines with no additional loss of CFM's. Coincidentally I was in Woodcraft today and looked inside the metal model (they didn't have the plastic one), no ramp just the outlet chimney.

I would expect Oneida to know what they are talking about, but 12" doesn't seem like much distance for spinning air to slow or stop spinning. Since an air straightener doesn't seem to impose much if any losses, I'd be inclined to install it anyway. 

I looked at the JDS arrangement and it looks like it would work on the 50-760, but I'd be wondering if I was putting more fines into the pleated filter that way. In the conventional setup with the plastic bag below and the pleated filter above, you get a second chance to separate fines from the filter.


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## RogerInColorado

Exciting stuff. Lots of information here and sounds like more to come. I'm going to continue to follow.


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## Marv

Shop Dad said:


> Marv, thanks for posting the information you have. I agree with Bill that it's strange none of the WW magazines have really done a deep dive into this. Hopefully we are on the cusp of getting these improvements in shipping DCs.


You're welcome and hopefully some of that info will help you in your dust collector search!


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## Marv

Replied below in _*bold*_ again! 



retired2 said:


> A couple thoughts Marv.
> 
> Knowing that the plastic SDD has the air ramp, but the metal one does not, I would have made the same choice as you. They put that ramp there for a reason, and I would hope it is better separation of fines with no additional loss of CFM's. Coincidentally I was in Woodcraft today and looked inside the metal model (they didn't have the plastic one), no ramp just the outlet chimney.
> 
> _*I figured the same thing about the ramp and that is the biggest reason I decided to go that route. Not sure how much difference it actually made since I never tried the other one however I am thoroughly impressed with how much separation I am getting! *_
> 
> I would expect Oneida to know what they are talking about, but 12" doesn't seem like much distance for spinning air to slow or stop spinning. Since an air straightener doesn't seem to impose much if any losses, I'd be inclined to install it anyway.
> 
> _*I am definitely going to add the straightener especially after seeing your results.*_
> 
> I looked at the JDS arrangement and it looks like it would work on the 50-760, but I'd be wondering if I was putting more fines into the pleated filter that way. In the conventional setup with the plastic bag below and the pleated filter above, you get a second chance to separate fines from the filter.
> 
> _*I never thought of that but it does make sense! *_


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## Marv

*"air straightener"*

I couldn't figure out how to make the metal "X" straightener easily removable for experimenting however while bending some plastic for a project today I had another idea. Basically I heated a thin piece of acrylic and bent it into a "V" shape just enough to have some tension in it when I slid it inside the cyclone's tube (since I had no real scientific information on length I just made it about the length of the tube). The first thing I noticed was that the dust collector was MUCH quieter which is a big enough benefit for me to leave the straightener in. I then did another seriously non scientific test where I sat a small square of cardboard on the saw and slowly moved the hose towards it to see how close I needed to get before it got sucked up to the hose. It was very obvious that the hose picked it up from further away with the straightener installed and the "hand over inlet" test showed an increase in suction as well. I'm going to experiment a bit with length and if my buddy is able to borrow the test gear from work I'll do some actual measurements.


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## retired2

Marv said:


> I couldn't figure out how to make the metal "X" straightener easily removable for experimenting however while bending some plastic for a project today I had another idea. Basically I heated a thin piece of acrylic and bent it into a "V" shape just enough to have some tension in it when I slid it inside the cyclone's tube (since I had no real scientific information on length I just made it about the length of the tube). The first thing I noticed was that the dust collector was MUCH quieter which is a big enough benefit for me to leave the straightener in. I then did another seriously non scientific test where I sat a small square of cardboard on the saw and slowly moved the hose towards it to see how close I needed to get before it got sucked up to the hose. It was very obvious that the hose picked it up from further away with the straightener installed and the "hand over inlet" test showed an increase in suction as well. I'm going to experiment a bit with length and if my buddy is able to borrow the test gear from work I'll do some actual measurements.


I'm glad you followed through with the air straightener idea because I think there are a lot of skeptics out there who don't feel it is worthwhile.

When I close-coupled my separator to my Delta DC, it was the increased noise that led me to the investigation of an air straightener. Fortunately, I had a sound meter, an anemometer, and an amp meter to prove conclusively that with the air straightener installed the noise level was reduced, the power was reduced, and the air flow increased. It's not often that the laws of physics give up a three run homer.

Incidentally, your test might not have been very scientific, but it was pretty clever, and good enough to prove the merits of an air straightener.


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## Marv

retired2 said:


> I'm glad you followed through with the air straightener idea because I think there are a lot of skeptics out there who don't feel it is worthwhile.
> 
> When I close-coupled my separator to my Delta DC, it was the increased noise that led me to the investigation of an air straightener. Fortunately, I had a sound meter, an anemometer, and an amp meter to prove conclusively that with the air straightener installed the noise level was reduced, the power was reduced, and the air flow increased. It's not often that the laws of physics give up a three run homer.
> 
> Incidentally, your test might not have been very scientific, but it was pretty clever, and good enough to prove the merits of an air straightener.


Based on your testing I was pretty confident that I would see improvement and I'm glad I figured out a way to do it!


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## Dejure

*Shake, Rattle and Roll*

I found shaking the unit, after turning the paddles to knock of the dust off the filter, causes the dust to drop on down and I don't have to remove the filter.

I'm going to try a little dry silicone to see if that helps too. 

Meanwhile, the Super Dust Deputy was the best move, just after learning to shake the unit. Before, I had the problem described - knocking the dust off with the paddles seemed almost a waste of time, since it all landed on the rim and cone, then got sucked back up into the canister, fro,m which it was just removed.


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## JLaBelle

Hi Marv
I've just ordered the same Oneida cyclone for my Delta 50-760. Saw that you have your bag filter inverted on your 50-760 and a canister sitting on the floor nearby. I currently have a Wynn canister on my unit and was interested if you installed your canister upside down and if works ok that way. I like what you did with your 50-760 and plan on doing the same modification. I like the idea of having the canister inverted since I have some limited ceiling height in my shop.
Jerry


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## Marv

JLaBelle said:


> Hi Marv
> I've just ordered the same Oneida cyclone for my Delta 50-760. Saw that you have your bag filter inverted on your 50-760 and a canister sitting on the floor nearby. I currently have a Wynn canister on my unit and was interested if you installed your canister upside down and if works ok that way. I like what you did with your 50-760 and plan on doing the same modification. I like the idea of having the canister inverted since I have some limited ceiling height in my shop.
> Jerry


 Hello Jerry! I initially installed the canister on top as suggested by retired2 in order to get a second chance at separation however it would not fit below my garage door track so I ended up inverting it. The separation of the cyclone is excellent so I don't believe I'm missing much and my plan is to add a clean out barrel on the bottom of the filter or I may just make a ring and use a cut off plastic bag. Almost forgot, I had initially considered the Wynn 35a however I found it would not fit inverted with the cyclone due to the diameter so I ended up swapping the blue one shown in the earlier picture for the PennState nano fiber seen below. The reason being I have accidentally overfilled my small collection drum with MDF dust a couple of times causing the filter to clog and it was a pain to clean due to the really tight weave I believe however the Penn State advertisement stated their filter would clean easily with a blast of air even with MDF dust (I have not clogged it yet in order to find out for sure). 
BTW, I'll post a few pics of the new stand I have in the works as soon as I get a chance to finish it (it will have a larger "quick release" collection barrel with a viewing window)


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## JLaBelle

Hi Marv
Looking forward to the pictures. I have the Wynn 35A. I can see there isn't a whole lot of room between the cyclone and the filter. May have to go back to mounting it on top.
Jerry


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## daviddoria

Marv,

How did you extend the vertical rods? Are those just 4 blocks of wood with holes in both the top and the bottom? Does it not wiggle around on you too much? I am thinking of doing the same thing because it is tough to fit my trashcan+cyclone lid in the original stand.

Thanks,

David


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## Marv

Yes David those are just solid birch blocks with holes drilled into them and although a little top heavy it was fairly stable. I ended up splitting one of the blocks so I searched a better solution and my first idea was to use short lengths of solid steel rods bolted on inside the tubes however that didn't work out well since the top hole is larger than the bottom one. I figured a larger tube bolted over the originals would work better and while at Home Depot looking for something to try I came across the 1" conduit which was actually a little larger than 1" ID. Instead of drilling holes/bolting short pieces to the original tubes as originally planned I ended up cutting it long enough to fit between the bend at the bottom and the brace between the upper tubes to get the height needed. BTW, I removed the wheels and installed leveling feet since I don't move mine anymore however I think it would still be solid enough to move around especially if you bolt the tubing on.


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## mrblint

I've been wanting to improve my dust collection. Currently using Shopvac with the tiny Oneida dust deputy, and considering upgrading to a 1.5HP or 2HP dust collector and the black plastic Oneida Super Dust Deputy.

I like how you modded the Delta 50-760.

How is the Delta blower connected to the SDD? Is the SDD just wearing the blower like a sombrero? Is there any sort of adapter needed there, or any kind of gasket to seal the connection?


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## Marv

mrblint said:


> I've been wanting to improve my dust collection. Currently using Shopvac with the tiny Oneida dust deputy, and considering upgrading to a 1.5HP or 2HP dust collector and the black plastic Oneida Super Dust Deputy.
> 
> I like how you modded the Delta 50-760.
> 
> How is the Delta blower connected to the SDD? Is the SDD just wearing the blower like a sombrero? Is there any sort of adapter needed there, or any kind of gasket to seal the connection?


I made a 5" ID to 6" OD adapter that allows me to slide the cyclone up in order to remove the drum for emptying and I used a large/wide rubber band to seal that sliding connection (I'll see if I can get a close up picture later)


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## mrblint

Thanks for the reply. I'm eager to take advantage of some of your good ideas. Does the Delta blower spin CCW?


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## Marv

mrblint said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm eager to take advantage of some of your good ideas. Does the Delta blower spin CCW?


You're welcome and it spins clockwise however the air straightener makes a big difference when close coupled like this. Here are a couple of pics showing the "adapter" (several MDF rings glued together and rounded over on the inside) with the rubber band I use to seal the loose fitting joint..


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