# Help! First coat of poly is beading on table



## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

I am beginning to learn how to seal with poly and this is my first project. I sanded and stained a dining room table with min wax oil based stain. I let it dry for 48 hours and began to apply my water based poly tonight. It did not occur to me until later that water and oil do not mix, beginners mistake I guess. The poly has beaded up and did not dry even, it is now bumpy. What do I do without ruining the stain below?

Should I lightly sand and then apply another coat hoping for it to even out? I have attached a picture where you can see the poly. Please help!


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## 4reel (Mar 3, 2013)

I am guessing but I do not think you let the oil stain cure long enough. You could try to sand it down. You will be close to bare wood to get all the bumps out. I would test a small area to insure it will work.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Generally it should be fine to put a water based poly over minwax oil stain, especially letting it dry 48 hours. Is it a new table or one being refinished? When you applied the stain did you immediately wipe off the excess? The wood appears to be a type of mahogany. Mahogany wood normally has a texture to it unless you use a grain filler first. I'm wondering if what you are calling bumpy is the texture of the wood. 

I think before you apply any more finish you should find out what is going wrong. Water based poly is pretty thin so if you do any sanding on it use at least a 320 grit paper and sand very little until you get the finish thicker. It's just real easy to sand through the finish, especially on the corners.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

It is a table we are refinishing. The table was smooth prior to applying the poly, but right after I applied the poly it began to separate, or beading up. When I applied the stain I let it sit for 10-15 minutes then lightly wiped it off. 

So you think I should lightly sand with 320 to remove the bumps? I'm afraid that if I sand it will remove the stain in spots. 

Thank you for your help!!


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

Could this be caused by something as simple as over brushing?


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Mcgow103 said:


> I am beginning to learn how to seal with poly and this is my first project. I sanded and stained a dining room table with min wax oil based stain. I let it dry for 48 hours and began to apply my water based poly tonight. It did not occur to me until later that water and oil do not mix, beginners mistake I guess. The poly has beaded up and did not dry even, it is now bumpy. What do I do without ruining the stain below?
> 
> Should I lightly sand and then apply another coat hoping for it to even out? I have attached a picture where you can see the poly. Please help!


Your only option at this point is to lightly sand, that means one stroke with 220, move over, one stroke. Use Norton 10X. If anything is sticking to the sandpaper, wait a couple more days. Don't try to make the surface smooth or level yet, you need three or four more coats before you won't sand through the stain. Apply a light coat of poly, don't flood the surface. Be patient, this will just be an experiment to try saving you from completely stripping the project. It's worth a try. 

The reason for your problem could be anything from the tables previous history to what you have done. You didn't give us enough details to know. Assuming the table was completely stripped and raw before you started with the stain, you may have left too much stain on the surface and used too much poly over an uncured stain.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Mcgow103 said:


> It is a table we are refinishing. The table was smooth prior to applying the poly, but right after I applied the poly it began to separate, or beading up. When I applied the stain I let it sit for 10-15 minutes then lightly wiped it off.
> 
> So you think I should lightly sand with 320 to remove the bumps? I'm afraid that if I sand it will remove the stain in spots.
> 
> Thank you for your help!!


OK this is a common problem when refinishing furniture. A aerosol furniture polish contains silicone which goes through the finish into the wood. Stripping the finish doesn't remove it and sanding just spreads it around. The wood is just contaminated. It sounds funny but the solution is to put silicone in the finish you are using. If you would go to a store that sells automotive paint they will have a product called smoothie or an equivalent. It might also be called fisheye control solvent. Just a couple drops of silicone to a quart of finish and it will quit separating. Now once you put that in your finish any sandpaper you use sanding between coats be sure not to use it on another project that isn't contaminated as it will get silicone all over it too. The sanding pads I use I spray the back side with red paint to be sure I know the pads are contaminated.


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## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

Steve may be right. Silicone usually makes the finish bead up with round circles where the finish has voids in it. If that is what it is then Smoothie would prevent it from beading up anymore. What is there now will need to be sanded level but don't try to do it all at once. Do a normal between the coats sanding and apply another coat. Then do more sanding after it dries and repeat the process as many times as it is necessary.


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## 4reel (Mar 3, 2013)

I didn't see where there was silicone mentioned but if it was you can try what Steve said. However silicone is nasty stuff for paint. Personally I would sand it down to bare wood if there was silicone on it. Since it is a refinish did you sand the old wood to the point where none of the old finish was left? If so that could have been the source of the silicone.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

I do not know about any silicone on it before. We sanded it all the way down to bare wood before staining it. Not sure if this could be the problem? Thanks everyone!


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

At this point, do you all think it is best to lightly sand with 320 then put more poly and sand again and repeat etc? Possibly that would help to even it out?


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## banjopicks (Jan 3, 2009)

Has it dried yet?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Mcgow103 said:


> I do not know about any silicone on it before. We sanded it all the way down to bare wood before staining it. Not sure if this could be the problem? Thanks everyone!


Silicone is an ingredient in furniture polish and gets into the wood with normal use. Stripping and sanding doesn't get rid of it. It just caused the new finish to bead up.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

It should be dry, it has been 24 hours since the poly went on.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok great, so I will pick up the silicone for the poly. How much should be added? Do you think it is worth a shot doing a layer of the silicone/poly mix over the bumpy layer?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Mcgow103 said:


> Ok great, so I will pick up the silicone for the poly. How much should be added? Do you think it is worth a shot doing a layer of the silicone/poly mix over the bumpy layer?


I would do a normal between the coats sanding as though nothing was wrong and then apply another coat with the poly mixed with smoothie on the entire project. If you get smoothie it doesn't take more than a drop or two to a quart of finish to do the job. Another brand product may use a different formula. If you get a different product you might ask them where you buy it how much to add as there will be no instructions on the can.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks Steve! I will pick up the product tomorrow and give it a try tomorrow evening. Hoping for the best!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Mcgow103 said:


> Thanks Steve! I will pick up the product tomorrow and give it a try tomorrow evening. Hoping for the best!


It won't hurt anything if that wasn't the problem. Without being there I can only guess it is silicone contamination. I can't see it in the picture but your description fits it perfectly. Silicone tends to make the new finish bead up like water on a freshly waxed car.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

The standard rule of thumb for many years was that you could put an oil based finish over a water based stain, but you could not put a water based finish over an oil based stain. This is what I had been told by 'lab techs' when I had called and talked with a couple of different finish manufacturers when I was first learning. I would strip the finish and redo it, myself. Restain if necessary. If all other advice fails to do the job, you can still do so. Good luck.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

mmwood_1 said:


> The standard rule of thumb for many years was that you could put an oil based finish over a water based stain, but you could not put a water based finish over an oil based stain. This is what I had been told by 'lab techs' when I had called and talked with a couple of different finish manufacturers when I was first learning. I would strip the finish and redo it, myself. Restain if necessary. If all other advice fails to do the job, you can still do so. Good luck.


Bump


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

I would sand with 300/400 grit and put a coat of dewaxed shellac over it let it cure, then go ahead with your water base, you might want to put a 10% extender in finish to give you more play time when putting the wter base on .


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

*beading*

I would sand 320/400 grit. put a dewaxed shellac over top then go aheadwith your water base, might want to add a extender 10 % to your finish to give you bit more play time when putting the water base on


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

mmwood_1 said:


> The standard rule of thumb for many years was that you could put an oil based finish over a water based stain, but you could not put a water based finish over an oil based stain. This is what I had been told by 'lab techs' when I had called and talked with a couple of different finish manufacturers when I was first learning. I would strip the finish and redo it, myself. Restain if necessary. If all other advice fails to do the job, you can still do so. Good luck.


You can, but there are steps involved. I know you can do this with Minwax. You may apply the Minwax Water Based Polyurethane over a fully cured Minwax Wood Finish Stain (oil-based). Please use the following guidelines: 

To ensure the color fastness of Minwax Wood Finish prior to applying Minwax Water-Based Polyurethane: 
1.) Allow final coat of stain to dry 8-24 hours (Dry time is affected by your ventilation, temperature, and relative humidity). 
2.) Wipe down the stained surface using a soft, lint-free cloth dampened with 100% pure mineral spirits. If the stain is cured and inactive, the mineral spirits will not affect the color. You should not have any color pick-up onto the cloth. The mineral spirits will remove any active/excess stain from surface and help the stain to cure out. 
3.) Allow the mineral spirits to evaporate/flash off the surface. 

Once the stain color is set and cured (passed the color-fast test), apply 3 coats of the Minwax Water Based Polyurethane per label directions.

This is straight from the manufacturer.

At this point, I would wash the finish off with Acetone or MEK. When your down to the wood, sand thoroughly with 180 grit paper. Before staining, wipe the wood down with naptha as this will help remove contaminates if any, then apply your stain. If your using minwax, follow the steps above I listed. If using other products, I recommend sealing with oil based to get a consistent color from the stain due to the ambering quality of oil based and then for protection using water or oil......if using water wait 3 - 4 days before applying.


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## 4reel (Mar 3, 2013)

What kind of wood was it?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

4reel said:


> What kind of wood was it?


I agree with Steve, I think its Mahogany.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Although it looks like mahogany, I believe it may be Luan--Luan contains oils that repel many finishes---lousy wood for any project--shellac after staining is often the only way to get a bond between the luan and the poly---

I may be wrong---I hate luan---


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

mikeswoods said:


> Although it looks like mahogany, I believe it may be Luan--Luan contains oils that repel many finishes---lousy wood for any project--shellac after staining is often the only way to get a bond between the luan and the poly---
> 
> I may be wrong---I hate luan---


I think you are mistaken about the luan. I don't like it either but it's one of the driest and oil free woods I've ever worked with.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

mikeswoods said:


> Although it looks like mahogany, I believe it may be Luan--Luan contains oils that repel many finishes---lousy wood for any project--shellac after staining is often the only way to get a bond between the luan and the poly---
> 
> I may be wrong---I hate luan---


Well, it "could" be. 

But there are differences. Luan isn't "like" mahogany. Real luan IS mahogany, and as such has oils in it. Philippine Mahogany is a type of luan that was used on doors in the early 70's in alot of homes. I dont think a stained Luan would look like that. Most people will use a preconditioner on luan and in the pics its got alot of ticking more similar to mahogany. Looking at the pics, I will stick with saying its Mahogany even though pictures can be deceiving.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

You may be right---I've only worked Mahogany once--I broke out in a rash that about drove me insane----it is the only wood that ever did that to me.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's funny what folks do with words. If you make a piece of furniture out of Philippine Mahogany or Meranti it's good stuff and if you make one out of Luan it's regarded as cheap junk when all three are different names for the same wood from the Shorea family of trees.


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## Mcgow103 (Dec 17, 2014)

Just a quick update for everyone. I added 1 capful of smoothie to my poly and did a coat after lightly sanding with 320 sandpaper. When I put the poly on, it still beaded up slightly. I let it dry for a couple days, sanded again with 320 and decided to add another capful of smoothie to the poly. I figured the table can't get much worse at this point! I put a layer of poly on the table, and it didn't bead!! Went on like glass, finally!! Tonight I sanded once more and did one last poly coat. The bumps from before are barely noticeable and looks good to me for my DIY project. 

To finish the table, does anyone recommend sanding it again at the end or just leaving it as is? I was also thinking of putting a coat of furniture wax to finish it and add some richness. Does anyone recommend this?

Ps- I have no idea what kind of wood this table is, the lady I got it from tried to guess Pecan.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you sand the finish now, wait a month until the finish cures and sand it with only 1500 grit sandpaper or finer and then rub it out with rubbing compound and wax it. This will make the finish very glossy and won't do anything to level the bumps. If you sand to level the bumps at this point use 220 grit paper and put another coat of poly on it. Don't add any more smoothie to your finish. I think you have too much in it now. If you are not sanding and hand rubbing the finish wax really doesn't do anything for polyurethane. It's like waxing plexiglass.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> It's funny what folks do with words. If you make a piece of furniture out of Philippine Mahogany or Meranti it's good stuff and if you make one out of Luan it's regarded as cheap junk when all three are different names for the same wood from the Shorea family of trees.


Its funny until you go and buy it. A 1/8-inch thick piece of luan retails for $18 while a 1/4-inch thick piece can cost $21. Philippine Mahogany runs $2 a square foot and up depending on the thickness.


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