# Planer vs. Sander



## RandomIowan (May 28, 2017)

I'm not quite sure where to put this newbie question so thought I'd place it here...

I plan on starting the entertainment center first as the bareness of the living room of this house is killing me and a couch should be arriving tomorrow (yay!). I've got a few designs I've been thinking over but how to smooth the tabletop after joining the wood is baffling me method wise. 

So what is the best way to get that seamless look after joining the pieces of wood? I am on a TIGHT budget so a tabletop planer is a no go.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

A table top planer wouldn't be a lot of help for that application. A planer large enough to surface a table top would be extremely costly. If you had the money it would be better spent on a wide belt sander. Myself I would sand it first with a hand held belt sander followed by a random orbital sander. A belt sander is good to level a glued up top however the least little tip to one corner or another will make little dents in the wood you can't see until you put a finish on it. That is where the random orbital sander comes in. It has a flat surface and sands aggressive enough to remove these dents.


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

Get yourself some really straight pieces of wood and it shouldn't be an issue....

If I'm doing a glue up of 3/4 material I'll usually start with 4/4 material, square it up on the jointer, plane it down to 7/8th, get it nice and square, THEN I'll glue it up trying to alternate growth rings and such. Rarely do I get boards that warp on me. 

I typically don't work with anything over 12" wide, so my lunch box planer is just fine. For bigger pieces I'll take it to a local shop with a wide belt and they will sand it down, but if there's a twist or a warp it won't take it out. The machine presses the board flat as it goes through, meaning imperfections are still in it as it comes out the other side.

Another option is to glue up a large panel, cut it back down to 12" sections, plane it on a lunch box planer, and reglue it. Little more time consuming but if you're desperate...

My question is if you're doing a large entertainment center and are a noob, why are you not going with plywood for the carcass? Cheaper, no glue ups, and no issues with wood movement.


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh... if your budget is so tight you can't afford a table to planer, a belt sander will DEFINITELY be out of your reach.

Build your entertainment center out of plywood, or get really really familiar with a hand plane.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Masterofnone said:


> Build your entertainment center out of plywood, or get really really familiar with a hand plane.


This is the best answer. Laminating a bunch of planks together and getting a smooth top is no easy task. :frown2:
Plywood will work best for you at this point. Joining the plywood in the corners will require glue blocks or rabbets made with a hand router. You are trying too big of a project with a limited budget and no tools/machine. JMO.


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## RandomIowan (May 28, 2017)

Mixed opinions...just what I like to see for something like this 

Here is how I am understanding this...

option a.) hand held belt sander followed by orbital sander

b.) hand plan

c.) pay a guy to plan them

d.) ply wood

Won't lie I am trying to avoid ply wood just for the fact I want something that shows good character and more craftsmen ship even though it will take more time and effort. Wanting more of the old school natural look. Not to sure on how well big box lumber is on QC. If need be I may check out a few smaller local lumber yards and see if they've got better quality that may require less finishing touches.


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## bargoon (Apr 20, 2016)

If you're not wanting to buy tools the big box lumber stores usually carry wide laminated wood panels.


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

RandomIowan said:


> Mixed opinions...just what I like to see for something like this
> 
> Here is how I am understanding this...
> 
> ...


I totally applaud this, and I think a lot of new guys feel this way... I know I did!

Unfortunately for a new guy solid wood panels tend to be more trouble than they are worth. I watched Charles Neil make a hunt board out of solid walnut and poplar. The techniques he employed are those by a guy that's built hundreds of pieces over a lifetime. Wouldn't occur to or even make sense to a new guy. A big piece like an entertainment center, if made from solid wood, will require exceptional care in the assembly process to keep it from ripping itself apart come winter.

For me, the mark of a true craftsman is how it's constructed, not what it is constructed of. Get good at building first, then move onto a more advanced project.


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

This is a simple bookcase I made... the face frame and mouldings are all hardwood, but the carcass is ply.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

I would do what Steve said to do, but practice with the belt sander before you start on your project to quote a pretty famous woodworker, Tage Frid, "A belt sander can ruin a good piece of wood work faster than any other tool made"

But with experience you can master it, use a fairly fine belt until you are aware of how fast a courser belt can remove wood, keep the sander moving at all times, and don't bear down on the sander to try to make it sand faster. I have flattened many cupped tops before it just takes patience 

I have built a ton of furniture with my Porter Cable 364 4x24 belt sander, but since I got a stroke sander it had been used much less, damn I love that stroke sander


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

After gluing up a hardwood top, I start with a hand plane to level everything flat. With a good hand plane and a cabinet scraper, sometimes you can avoid the belt sander. I block sand my tops by hand to 220 grit before staining.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Toolman50 said:


> After gluing up a hardwood top, I start with a hand plane to level everything flat. With a good hand plane and a cabinet scraper, sometimes you can avoid the belt sander. I block sand my tops by hand to 220 grit before staining.


You shouldn't sand to 220 and stain. To fine a grit...


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## hubaseball02 (Nov 24, 2007)

Rebelwork said:


> You shouldn't sand to 220 and stain. To fine a grit...




Why should one not sand to 220 and stain?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

220 is for unstained wood. 150-180 is enough for wood being stained....


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## sancho57 (Oct 23, 2011)

Get a planer to ensure all the wood is the same thickness prior to glue up. After glue up rough sand then take the piece or pieces to a cabinet shop that has a drum sander. Some here will for a small fee run your pieces through their sander.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2015)

Since the only word in the OP that was capitalized was TIGHT budget, that is always a good place to start. 

What tools/tooling do you currently have that could be employed to flatten a top? What sanders, planers, jointers, saws, etc are in your tool arsenal?

How much would you be willing to spend on an added tool that might help?

I expect the experts here can offer solutions based on your tooling if the very best solution/s are out of your budget.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

RandomIowan said:


> I'm not quite sure where to put this newbie question so thought I'd place it here...
> 
> I plan on starting the entertainment center first as the bareness of the living room of this house is killing me and a couch should be arriving tomorrow (yay!). I've got a few designs I've been thinking over but how to smooth the tabletop after joining the wood is baffling me method wise.
> 
> So what is the best way to get that seamless look after joining the pieces of wood? I am on a TIGHT budget so a tabletop planer is a no go.


Do you have a guild or Woodcraft local. Usually someone can help you out locally..

Are you looking to build a large entertainment center or smaller. My daughter bought a house and wanted a simple entertainment center. She has the DIY entertainment center...


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Rebelwork said:


> You shouldn't sand to 220 and stain. To fine a grit...


I've done this for 40 years. 
It's always worked for me. >
Walnut, Cherry, Red Oak, Pine, Poplar, Alder, Mahogany, Birch, And more. 
Smooth as babe's ass before I stain. Always with oil based stains.


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## RandomIowan (May 28, 2017)

Not to big and not to small...just basic but with enough space for the TV, bluray, etc. Running a few ideas through my head. One of them is non traditional..can't really explain it.

For my current arsenal of tools I have...

10 inch miter
Orbital sander (just invested today...GF hasn't found it in the garage...yet...) 
clamps (various) 
bit sits (brad points and carbin)
drill press
drill
router (no table)
circular saw (x2, may turn one into table saw once I get brushes)

and a lot more since I do automotive.

I've had thoughts of doing some dowel joining projects like cutting boards just to get in some sanding/smoothing experience (hard wood, of course). I'm pretty well willing to invest in tools that I'll use over and over again that are decent and I can afford.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hubaseball said:


> Why should one not sand to 220 and stain?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depending on the type of wood sanding to 220 grit can be counterproductive. For example you were working with Douglas Fir or pine sanding to 220 grit eats away at the soft grain leaving the hard grain. It ends up with a washboard texture to the wood when you were trying to make it smooth. On this kind of wood you would have to sand with a hard rubber sanding block in order to sand to 220 grit without causing this problem. Other woods like walnut that have a uniform density there wouldn't be a problem.


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## maxwage (May 30, 2017)

woodnthings said:


> This is the best answer. Laminating a bunch of planks together and getting a smooth top is no easy task. :frown2:
> Plywood will work best for you at this point. Joining the plywood in the corners will require glue blocks or rabbets made with a hand router. You are trying too big of a project with a limited budget and no tools/machine. JMO.




Don't listen to this. No disrespect intended. I have a decently outfitted hobby shop, but I've figured many work arounds for not having an industrial shop. 

When there's a will there's way. That being said, how much time do you have to complete said project? One could have all the bells and whistles or the minimum. It's the person behind the tool, not the other way around.

The knowledge is out there if you seek it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RandomIowan (May 28, 2017)

I agree max. Lots of ways to get one job done but everyone may not agree on the way to best method to complete the job. Its like changing a fog light in a grand am...pull the headlight and go from the top or remove the plastic covers and go in from the bottom. Gotta say I do like seeing message boards with members using all sorts of different methods over just ONE method.

Time wise I'm unlimited but leaning towards belt sander and orbit sander if the wood is not to bad. While still being in design process it maybe a week before I settle on what I am going to do. Depending on how weekend pans out I may try making a few cutting boards with hard wood just to give the method a go with smaller pieces.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Woodnthings has a lot of experience and has made a lot of tops. His suggestion is an excellent suggestion for someone with limited tools and still a novice. A plywood of hardwood veneer makes an excellent top. Many of the fine dining tables you buy today have a veneered tops. If made well, only an experienced woodworker will know the top is veneer.


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## RandomIowan (May 28, 2017)

I do have another project on the list that I haven't mentioned that would work perfect for the laminating. Its up in the air on when I'll start, a desk for home "office"/study.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi RandomIowa,

At this point you have gotten a lot of perspectives here...and most are just opinions...neither correct or incorrect (for the most part.)

I personally work traditionally almost exclusively as a woodworker in several formats....That doesn't mean I don't use power tools (just spent $18,000 on some Mafell to speed up some pending larger projects) but it does mean we have an eye to traditional systems and hand tool finishing almost exclusively...So you are to be commended on trying your hand at solid wood projects. 

As to it being too difficult...???...That too is a perspective. Once hand tools is all there was...so, without them, we would be living in caves and sitting on rocks if it was all too complicated. Today it's more how you get started in this thing we call...woodworking...as too many believe that wood has to be dry, and it's impossible to make anything easily with hand tools...neither of which is true at all...

In support of WoodnThings (and as a teacher of woodworking myself) I also have to look at what a student/client wants...and...when they want it??? 

I can't stand plywood...despise the stuff personally...but when creating a carcass that is only going to be seen from the front for the most part, then there isn't really anything (especially for someone needing something now...???...as you seem to) that will beat getting a higher quality sheet of hardwood ply and getting the project complete in a neat and orderly fashion that also reflects respect to the craft...

So, if you want solid wood...then go for it, and do it with all hand tools...its not as hard as its made out to be, and once better understood, virtually as fast in many applications...

Good Luck,

P.S. 

As to sanding...???...I have sanded to well over 1000 grit (pumice and Skate Skin..and with a Festool Rotex both) on softwoods and hardwoods alike...again, it's about approach modality, understanding of the medium in hand, and system of application of the sanding being done...be it modern or historic...since sanding methods are also quite acient in their own right..


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> As to it being too difficult...???...That too is a perspective. Once hand tools is all there was...so, without them, we would be living in caves and sitting on rocks if it was all too complicated. Today it's more how you get started in this thing we call...woodworking...as too many believe that wood has to be dry, and it's impossible to make anything easily with hand tools...neither of which is true at all...
> 
> So, if you want solid wood...then go for it, and do it with all hand tools...its not as hard as its made out to be, and once better understood, virtually as fast


For the most part, a lot of us are trying to tell the OP to start small and work into it. You don't just grab a hand plane and start smoothing boards right out of the box and I think it's irresponsible and ill advising to act like what he's trying to attempt is no big deal...

He either needs to start small with little projects first to learn hand tools, or, if he wants to build something big without wasting time and money, go for something simpler. 

One does not come out of the womb able to walk.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

First, I HATE, yes, HATE THE term 'entertainment center'. I don't really have a legitimate reason for this hatred, but I have it. I'm fine with TV stand, table, cabinet or any number of other terms. To many things can fall into the category of entertainment. Hiring a stripper would be entertainment and you certainly don't need a center for her (or him)
Back to the problem at hand..and benchtop planer would do the trick, but as many have pointed out there are other methods available to you. 
I'm glad you didn't use my alternate term of non-endearment, 'shabby chique' which to me screams laziness and willingness to pretend it's high quality. 
Ok, I'm a 'fashionable term snob'. Sue me..lol
How wide (or deep) is this thing going to be? Most TVs now are pretty narrow so most of us no longer need those old heavy ugly boxes to hold a big box tv.. 
A 12 inch shelf should be fine for holding a flat screen TV now days and with that in mind a benchtop planer should be sufficient to plane a 12" board just fine and dandy. But again, there are plenty of alternatives, dowels, buiscuits, dominoes. ($999 cough cough) 
There's also other building methods and ideas.. A simple frame with a plywood inset or even tempered glass.. 
What kind of dimensions are you looking at? Size does matter in this.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

maxwage said:


> Don't listen to this. No disrespect intended. I have a decently outfitted hobby shop, but I've figured many work arounds for not having an industrial shop.
> 
> When there's a will there's way. That being said, how much time do you have to complete said project? One could have all the bells and whistles or the minimum. It's the person behind the tool, not the other way around.
> 
> ...



People getting into this hobby now days are so lucky to have a computer and sites like this for info and You Tube

I started about 50 years ago (I got bit at a young age LOL) and there was very little info on woodworking, only a few magazines and they were bimonthly, so I ended up making piles of firewood from good wood


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Jump right in .....*



RandomIowan said:


> I'm not quite sure where to put this newbie question so thought I'd place it here...
> 
> I plan on starting the entertainment center first as the bareness of the living room of this house is killing me and a couch should be arriving tomorrow (yay!). I've got a few designs I've been thinking over but how to smooth the tabletop after joining the wood is baffling me method wise.
> *
> So what is the best way to get that seamless look after joining the pieces of wood*? I am on a TIGHT budget so a tabletop planer is a no go.


How will you joint the pieces? Do you own a jointer? or a no. 7 Stanley jointer plane? The edges must be square and straight for the pieces to mate well enough for a seamless glue up!

How will you clamp the pieces together so they remain flat? Do you own enough clamps for this? If not, you will need some/many and they aren't cheap ...tight budget and all as you said.



Masterofnone said:


> Oh... if your budget is so tight you can't afford a table to planer, a belt sander will DEFINITELY be out of your reach.
> 
> *Build your entertainment center out of plywood*, or get really really familiar with a hand plane.





woodnthings said:


> This is the best answer. *Laminating a bunch of planks together and getting a smooth top is no easy task.* :frown2:
> Plywood will work best for you at this point. Joining the plywood in the corners will require glue blocks or rabbets made with a hand router. You are trying too big of a project with a limited budget and no tools/machine. JMO.


The reality is that a solid wood entertainment center is not a novice/beginner project. I've been doin' this for 50 years, and have yet to have a multi-plank glue up turn out "perfect". I have jointers, planers, belt sanders, straight edges and 50 years of "practice". to rely on.

This was a door build from 2 X's and sheeted both sides with 1/4" plywood:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/door-build-2-xs-1-4-ply-55717/


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I think y'all need to concentrate on the question...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Y'all got any ideas as to how....*



RandomIowan said:


> I'm not quite sure where to put this newbie question so thought I'd place it here...
> 
> I plan on starting the entertainment center first as the bareness of the living room of this house is killing me and a couch should be arriving tomorrow (yay!). I've got a few designs I've been thinking over but how to smooth the tabletop after joining the wood is baffling me method wise.
> *
> So what is the best way to get that seamless look after joining the pieces of wood?* I am on a TIGHT budget so a tabletop planer is a no go.



Besides a two word answer, what do you suggest? :|


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## sancho57 (Oct 23, 2011)

Depending on the project stained ill sand to 180, unstained I'll go as far as 320-400


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