# How would you cut the veneer to fit this table top?



## Spool (7 mo ago)

New to veneer.
Looking to fit it to this table top.
3 of the four edges are beveled.

How would you approach the 'perfect cut?'
Would you cut it before you glue it by measuring - although I'm afraid the edges aren't perfectly straight. I.e. 90 cm here might be 89.8cm there...
Would you glue down a corner and then proceed to the other end?
Thoughts?

Pictures of the table in question:


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

One thought I'm having is to:

1. Cut it roughly to size.
2. Glue it down, roll it out smooth.
3. Flip it over and cut the underside of the veneer along the edge of the table (to avoid accidentally scratching the beveled curve)
4. Hopefully, I'll come close enough that I can then flip the table right side up again and gently sand flush.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I looks like you could flush trim the overhang and go back with a sanding block that matches the curve to bring it flush.

With white oak you have to be careful of tearing out. Spiral bit best, may need to climb cut.

How are you going to glue it?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Spool said:


> New to veneer.
> Looking to fit it to this table top.
> 3 of the four edges are beveled.
> 
> ...


Veneer work is not a very DIY friendly undertaking. It's difficult to get it to lay down and not have bubbles under the veneer without proper presses. For something as large as a table top I would recommend a phenolic backed veneer. It's more or less formica with a real wood veneer on the face. With that you could cut the veneer oversized and lay it like formica with contact cement and trim off the excess later. If there was any imperfections in the substrate it would bend down to the low spots. Any box store will sell formica by order and you could order the size sheet you need. You could get a 4x8 sheet so you could cover the top without seams.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I looks like you could flush trim the overhang and go back with a sanding block that matches the curve to bring it flush.
> 
> With white oak you have to be careful of tearing out. Spiral bit best, may need to climb cut.
> 
> How are you going to glue it?


 I'm not quite sure about how I'm going to glue it.

I've seen it done, where wood glue is set on both table and underside veneer - about 15minutes later, placed, and then ironed out with a clothes iron.

I'm currently exploring YouTube on approaches.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

Steve N is correct. There's a lot to go wrong here. This table top has stayed flat because it has balanced construction--symmetric layers of veneer top and bottom. If you add a layer just to the top, this will unbalance the construction; and the top will likely be warped by the resulting internal stresses.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

Steve Neul said:


> Veneer work is not a very DIY friendly undertaking. It's difficult to get it to lay down and not have bubbles under the veneer without proper presses. For something as large as a table top I would recommend a phenolic backed veneer. It's more or less formica with a real wood veneer on the face. With that you could cut the veneer oversized and lay it like formica with contact cement and trim off the excess later. If there was any imperfections in the substrate it would bend down to the low spots. Any box store will sell formica by order and you could order the size sheet you need. You could get a 4x8 sheet so you could cover the top without seams.


 You know, I'm hoping I have just that.
In german the word describing what the veneer is set on top of is, 'Viles' which I can only translate to 'fleece.'

It's a dark black/brown material that is rough to the touch.
View attachment 441891


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Spool said:


> I've seen it done, where wood glue is set on both table and underside veneer - about 15minutes later, placed, and then ironed out with a clothes iron.


I've done this often and recently did it on a media stand I'm building - works quite well, actually.

Edit - just remembered I have an Instagram video of one of the steps doing this - 

__
http://instagr.am/p/CYAdgUQsOsr/


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

JohnGi said:


> Steve N is correct. There's a lot to go wrong here. This table top has stayed flat because it has balanced construction--symmetric layers of veneer top and bottom. If you add a layer just to the top, this will unbalance the construction; and the top will likely be warped by the resulting internal stresses.


The internal stresses? It's a tabletop, not a bridge. I'm confused by your warning.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

It likely already has veneer on the bottom side.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

difalkner said:


> I've done this often and recently did it on a media stand I'm building - works quite well, actually.
> 
> Edit - just remembered I have an Instagram video of one of the steps doing this -
> 
> ...


Love it. Questions if I may?

-You're using normal wood glue?
-What did you spray into the glue before applying?
-The heat gun you used was just to expedite dry time?
-The material between surface and iron, was that partially wet? (I've seen others use a damp bath towel between surface and iron.)


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

If your using regular wood glue you want extend..


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

Rebelwork said:


> If your using regular wood glue you want extend..


I'm open to glue choices, but I believe the iron technique I'm leaning towards uses wood glue. What is 'extend'?


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Spool said:


> I'm not quite sure about how I'm going to glue it.
> 
> I've seen it done, where wood glue is set on both table and underside veneer - about 15minutes later, placed, and then ironed out with a clothes iron.
> 
> I'm currently exploring YouTube on approaches.


My suggestion is don't try to glue a whole sheet. Either buy strips or cut the sheet into 6" wide strips and glue them one at a time using the PVA/hot iron method. The strips will need to be jointed and this can be a bit tricky. I use a 2x2x24" square block with sand paper adhered to one side. Clamp two sheets of veneer between some ply and use the sanding stick to "shoot" the edges.

IMO the hot iron/PVA method is the safest b/c it can be reversed. I've done it several times and it really works well. The key is waiting till the glue is dry or very tacky. I have used white glue and TB both work equally well, the white glue dries clear if that matters. I put a piece of kraft paper between the iron and wood. Start in the middle and work out. Use a roller as the glue is cooling.

Another method would be hot hide glue and hammer veneering but that's another venture if you've never done it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Spool said:


> I'm open to glue choices, but I believe the iron technique I'm leaning towards uses wood glue. What is 'extend'?


Another titebond product. Gives you longer working time than normal...


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> My suggestion is don't try to glue a whole sheet. Either buy strips or cut the sheet into 6" wide strips and glue them one at a time using the PVA/hot iron method. The strips will need to be jointed and this can be a bit tricky. I use a 2x2x24" square block with sand paper adhered to one side. Clamp two sheets of veneer between some ply and use the sanding stick to "shoot" the edges.
> 
> IMO the hot iron/PVA method is the safest b/c it can be reversed. I've done it several times and it really works well. The key is waiting till the glue is dry or very tacky. I have used white glue and TB both work equally well, the white glue dries clear if that matters. I put a piece of kraft paper between the iron and wood. Start in the middle and work out. Use a roller as the glue is cooling.
> 
> Another method would be hot hide glue and hammer veneering but that's another venture if you've never done it.


It's excellent to confirm that I can undo what I do as an insurance.

But I'll refrain from cutting into strips. I reasoned that with my inexperience, there would be a larger margin of error if I began jointing and aligning multiple pieces, which is why I sought one large piece that I can cut in 4 pieces (2 sides and 2 leafs)

Plus, if I begin cutting, I'm adding more concern to the one thing I'm concerned about - cleanly cutting this thing.

For cutting/fitting, I'm thinking I can cut an overextended piece, glue it down, flip the table over and then cut the under side edge. Once done, I can flip it right side up and sand off any edge that remains to aim for flush. This is my biggest concern at the moment.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Spool said:


> -You're using normal wood glue?
> -What did you spray into the glue before applying?
> -The heat gun you used was just to expedite dry time?
> -The material between surface and iron, was that partially wet? (I've seen others use a damp bath towel between surface and iron.)


TBI, my normal glue.
Water to thin the glue.
Yes, just because I didn't want to wait for the glue to flash so I could apply the next coat. You can wait until it dries naturally, though.
No, the Kraft paper was completely dry.

And yes, you can do the entire table top this way. Until you apply heat these pieces slide around on each other so it's easy to position the veneer where you want it but you do need to get it right the first time. Once you apply heat the veneer is down for the count.

If you plan on using pieces then join them before placing the entire sheet on the table top. It would be very difficult to join the pieces if you're gluing them separately to the top.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Spool said:


> It's excellent to confirm that I can undo what I do as an insurance.
> 
> But I'll refrain from cutting into strips. I reasoned that with my inexperience, there would be a larger margin of error if I began jointing and aligning multiple pieces, which is why I sought one large piece that I can cut in 4 pieces (2 sides and 2 leafs)
> 
> ...


I've never done anything that large, the reason I say strips is if something is going wrong you can take a strip up a lot easier than a bubble in the middle of a large panel.

I would not dilute the glue though. I think the extra water could cause issues.

Understand your reservations, but its really not that difficult to rip veneer. The key is to sandwich it between plywood, clamp it to the top. Leave about 1/16" sticking out. If you use a router and flush trim you can do multiple sheets at once.

Remembered this video


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I've never done anything that large, the reason I say strips is if something is going wrong you can take a strip up a lot easier than a bubble in the middle of a large panel.
> 
> I would not dilute the glue though. I think the extra water could cause issues.
> 
> ...





difalkner said:


> TBI, my normal glue.
> Water to thin the glue.
> Yes, just because I didn't want to wait for the glue to flash so I could apply the next coat. You can wait until it dries naturally, though.
> No, the Kraft paper was completely dry.
> ...


That’s a great video- I also found it on YouTube yesterday.

I believe I’ll be taking the iron route for control and lack of resources at the moment.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

DrRobert said:


> I would not dilute the glue though. I think the extra water could cause issues.


Good video but I would still thin the glue, always have and it's never caused a problem in the last 30 years or so. And I like using three coats of glue using a roller to run over the entire wet surface each time. That keeps you from having thick spots of glue and maintains a constant film thickness. George's method works but I like mine better.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

difalkner said:


> Good video but I would still thin the glue, always have and it's never caused a problem in the last 30 years or so. And I like using three coats of glue using a roller to run over the entire wet surface each time. That keeps you from having thick spots of glue and maintains a constant film thickness. George's method works but I like mine better.


Are you eyeballing the water to glue or do you have a ratio you like?

Also, why three coats?


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Spool said:


> Are you eyeballing the water to glue or do you have a ratio you like?
> 
> Also, why three coats?


No particular ratio, just thinned a bit, maybe 10% to 20%. Three coats because I don't want the veneer coming off. Also, because I thinned the glue and then used a roller to level it I realize I'm not getting the coverage George does by just dumping straight glue on the surfaces. But all the veneer I've done this was is still in place with no bubbles or lifted sections. Your call, though...


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I can see your point in thinning it, and don't question b/c if that works for you. I apply the glue just as if I'm doing bent laminations, using a low nap paint roller. I get better results this way than using a glue roller or rubber platen type roller. I've never diluted it nor found the need. I apply one fairly thick coat to both surfaces. Just mentioning, just seems like applying 3 coats is unnecessary.

Question, though - are you doing this with commercial 1/42" veneer? I ask b/c even undiluted glue often swells the veneer sometimes a lot, which can interfere with getting it down. So I'm wondering if adding more water wouldn't make the veneer swell even more? 

I also tape the edges down to hold the veneer in place. I notice you said when its down that's it, but I've had veneer creep and move on me during the ironing process. So I don't think its like contact cement.

Funny how two people can do the same thing and have very different experiences. 

@Spool I strongly suggest you get some veneer and practice this a little. Try undiluted vs. diluted I think you'll see there's not much difference. Tip: don't use MDF, use plywood.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

DrRobert said:


> I can see your point in thinning it, and don't question b/c if that works for you. I apply the glue just as if I'm doing bent laminations, using a low nap paint roller. I get better results this way than using a glue roller or rubber platen type roller. I've never diluted it nor found the need. I apply one fairly thick coat to both surfaces. Just mentioning, just seems like applying 3 coats is unnecessary.
> 
> Question, though - are you doing this with commercial 1/42" veneer? I ask b/c even undiluted glue often swells the veneer sometimes a lot, which can interfere with getting it down. So I'm wondering if adding more water wouldn't make the veneer swell even more?
> 
> ...


Yes, commercial veneer about 0.030" thickness. Haven't noticed much swelling or wrinkling, maybe a little but well under control. I don't recall the veneer creeping or moving once I hit it with the iron. I'm just really comfortable with three thin coats rolled out for uniform thickness. Different strokes, as they say.

This is the way I've done it for years - the only difference is that I use Kraft paper between the iron and the veneer. And I fully agree to do some tests first.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

Just sharing my experience: When I tried to veneer a large vertical surface, I did the wood glue, thinned with water ONCE and the veneer wrinkled and bubbled everywhere from the veneer absorbing the water. I don't recall what type of backing was on it. Since that experience, I have only used solvent based adhesive for large area's and pressure sensitive tape for edge banding.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I only use wood on wood veneer. A lot of finished ends, etc were just contact adhesive. ..


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

GCTony said:


> I don't recall what type of backing was on it.


I only use real wood veneer, no backing. I realize some veneer with backing is real wood but I've just never used it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With veneer if one is going to use a more conventional glue it should be a hide glue or a resin glue. PVA glues tend to not dry very well under something as large as a sheet. It tends to dry around the edges and stay wet in the middle unless someone uses a wood welder to accelerate the adhesive. Then too many veneers made today have a paper backing on them. These paper backings are applied with hot melt glue which might be damaged by the heat of an iron.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Spool said:


> The internal stresses? It's a tabletop, not a bridge. I'm confused by your warning.


He is correct. Whatever you do to one side you should do to the other, or risk stressing and warp. Especially if you use a PVA glue that has a lot of moisture in it.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

Question for you guys for the iron method:

When you apply the glue - 1st layer - 2nd layer - how long do you wait before positioning and setting?
-15 minutes?
-An hour?


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Spool said:


> how long do you wait before positioning and setting?


Until the glue is dry to the touch. When I use the heat gun to speed up the drying I probably still wait 20-30 minutes but could likely do it sooner.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

Well... This is super satisfying.
Gave it my first go just now.

-Two layers of glue (no water or diluent)
-Ironed from one side to the other. Pressing hard on the journey from left to right to blow out any bubbles.
-She laid flat. Looks great.
-Cutting the edges threw me though.
-My cutting from the underside idea was not working out, so I flipped the table back over.
-I tried sanding it away (Don't ask) It was too violent and I stopped.
-I then began sliding my chisel down the edge which worked nicely.
-To get it seamless, I had some extra wooden dowels that I wrapped in 80grit. @DrRobert - excellent call on this.
- @difalkner, appreciate all your tips and insight. Huge help.

Got to say, I'm pretty happy with it right now.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

👍🏻👍🏻 I see some splits there that reminds me bleed through can be an issue with certain figured wood b/c end grain in the figure wicks glue and it can be a big problem getting it off any dried residue you may miss, and dangerous with 1/42 veneer. Coating the glue surface of the veneer prior to glue will prevent this.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> 👍🏻👍🏻 I see some splits there that reminds me bleed through can be an issue with certain figured wood b/c end grain in the figure wicks glue and it can be a big problem getting it off any dried residue you may miss, and dangerous with 1/42 veneer. Coating the glue surface of the veneer prior to glue will prevent this.


Nothing is split. It’s the veneer itself.
It’s “old oak” that was ‘veneered’ from an old barn. There are some gaps from this that reveal a black texture on the underneath side.

If I was super ambitious I would try my hand at using poxy, but I’ll save that for another day.

For now, I will hit it with linseed oil and gave it liberal coats of a semi matte lacquer to bring it to completion.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Spool said:


> Nothing is split. It’s the veneer itself.
> It’s “old oak” that was ‘veneered’ from an old barn. There are some gaps from this that reveal a black texture on the underneath side.
> 
> If I was super ambitious I would try my hand at using poxy, but I’ll save that for another day.
> ...


I hear ya. Keep in mind gaps can collect debris and be hard to clean out. Not a big issue I’d a display table but if for eating Yiu shoukd fill it. Epoxy filling is really pretty easy, tho. It’s going to look great with an oil finish. Thin that BLO a little.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I hear ya. Keep in mind gaps can collect debris and be hard to clean out. Not a big issue I’d a display table but if for eating Yiu shoukd fill it. Epoxy filling is really pretty easy, tho. It’s going to look great with an oil finish. Thin that BLO a little.


You know, the epoxy thing was on my mind quite a bit - but I figured I'll just go heavy with the lacquer and then thin it out more and more with each coat, and just bring it all to surface that way.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Spool said:


> You know, the epoxy thing was on my mind quite a bit - but I figured I'll just go heavy with the lacquer and then thin it out more and more with each coat, and just bring it all to surface that way.


I’m pretty confident that won’t work, but you can try it.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Spool said:


> I'll just go heavy with the lacquer and then thin it out more and more with each coat, and just bring it all to surface that way.


As @DrRobert said, that likely won't work. It takes a LOT of lacquer to fill even a tiny pinhole or dent, a LOT. And the more it cures the more it shrinks so that spot will still show later.


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## Spool (7 mo ago)

Come to think of it, you’re both absolutely right.
I have a desk I’m coating at the moment with a small/wide groove and I can still feel it after 10 coats.

For this project:
-I’ve already knocked off the dust with 300g
-Gave a coat of linseed oil

I’m not sure id want to sand more after trying my hand at epoxy.

The gaps in question here are less than a .9mm deep - hardly enough to feel when I run my hand against it now. Maybe I’ll just stick the the lacquer for that reason but take a lesson from it and mark it in the perfection and experience playbook?

Or is epoxy quick, cheap and easy?


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