# To glue or not to glue?



## Bvh56

Should I glue the center panels in or let them float on my kitchen cabinet doors. I'm making shaker style doors with red oak frames and using 1/2 inch plywood for the center panels which will have the back side rabbited to fit the grooves of the stiles and rails. Everything will be stained in water base stain if it matters. Thanks


----------



## firemedic

If the panels are ply there is no true grain orientation as in a solid wood panel... So movement if any is negligible.

Glue it.

...build n burn - live n learn...


----------



## Just Bill

Let them float. There will be movement, regardless of the wood type/construction. No glue.


----------



## autre

Well, that answers everything!


----------



## firemedic

autre said:


> Well, that answers everything!


Yeah really, huh?... I guess we need a tie breaker.... :laughing:

That or the OP can just go eeny meenie minie...

Or go by whose more hansom... Baby wins every time :yes::laughing:

...build n burn - live n learn...

C-MAN: I added the stuff after tie breaker... :laughing:


----------



## Chaincarver Steve

Since panels are normally not glued in place, not gluing will be fine. Since the panel is plywood, gluing probably won't make a difference either way. I'd say save the glue and let 'em float. But I doubt it matters in your case.

Disclaimer: I have never made a panel door. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night***!


*** not really


----------



## firemedic

It wouldn't hurt to let them float. The reason I advised glueing them is because ply panel doors are notorious for rattling... Gluing it, if just a few dots here and there, prevents that.

Good luck!

...build n burn - live n learn...


----------



## nblasa

Somebody correct my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I thought plywood movement/expasion was fairly minimal, so I would think gluing would be a viable option. If you're asking this question in the first place because you're rather let them float but don't want a jiggling sound you could consider putting a small dab of silicone on the inside edge of your rabbits and let it dry before putting your panels in place. This would hold the panel still, allow for slight movement, and prevent any noise.


----------



## Chaincarver Steve

Something like "Space Balls" http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2020 would eliminate any rattle. You could probably use a bead of rubber cement, a strip of rubber band or some other piece to rubber to achieve the same effect.


----------



## Bvh56

Well my first door I made the groove and rabbit a snug fit. Thinking just a couple of glue in some spots along the panel. What's the worst that can happen if it does expand?


----------



## firemedic

Bvh56 said:


> Well my first door I made the groove and rabbit a snug fit. Thinking just a couple of glue in some spots along the panel. What's the worst that can happen if it does expand?


It's not going to expand... It's plywood.

...build n burn - live n learn...


----------



## cabinetman

firemedic said:


> It's not going to expand... It's plywood.


+1. :yes: I agree. I glue them all the time. Plywood, or any composite really is stable. I've never had a problem with the R&S's (movement wise). Gluing the panel will make for a very rigid door.










 







.


----------



## Hammer1

It wouldn't be the plywood panel that moves, it would be the rails and stiles. The wider they are, the more they may move. Depending on the style of the rail and stile grooves, how deep and how thin, the movement could split the rails or stiles along the groove. Shaker type doors often have wider frames, but you didn't give any dimensions or species. If the rails and stiles are wider than 2", I wouldn't take the chance by gluing the panels. In my climate, there are wide swings in humidity, in a desert, maybe there isn't much to worry about. Usually there is enough to worry about when gluing up doors, keeping them square, flat and not getting glue all over the place. Gluing the panels is just more to deal with and it wouldn't offer any significant advantage to a properly joined frame.


----------



## firemedic

Hammer1 said:


> It wouldn't be the plywood panel that moves, it would be the rails and stiles. The wider they are, the more they may move. Depending on the style of the rail and stile grooves, how deep and how thin, the movement could split the rails or stiles along the groove. Shaker type doors often have wider frames, but you didn't give any dimensions or species. If the rails and stiles are wider than 2", I wouldn't take the chance by gluing the panels. In my climate, there are wide swings in humidity, in a desert, maybe there isn't much to worry about. Usually there is enough to worry about when gluing up doors, keeping them square, flat and not getting glue all over the place. Gluing the panels is just more to deal with and it wouldn't offer any significant advantage to a properly joined frame.


???

Ok, let's really break this down.

Wood moves side to side... It doesn't get longer or shorter. Ergo the out sides of the rails n styles could potentially move but even that is almost negligible until you start talking about entry doors... no effect on the panel though - it's moving AWAY from the panel. 

This is why we take an otherwise unstable panel and put it in a frame. The frame doesn't really change. 

In a solid panel door the frames stays the same while the panel moves... If that weren't the case you COULD glue solid panel doors. 

On the flip side, frame doesn't move + ply doesn't move = it can be glued.


...???

...build n burn - live n learn...


----------



## Brink

Relative to humidity, I've seen panel doors expand and contract in height and width. The inside dimensions will vary very little if any at all. 

As for the op, a plywood panel can be glued, or not.


----------



## cabinetman

A problem I've seen is stress on the joints of a rail and stile door with a floating solid wood panel. One stile is carrying the weight and manipulating the opening and closing. Over time, with the small gap allowed for the panel is enough for some doors to rack (get out of square). 

That's not a problem with a slab door, or a panel that's glued in. The door is a rigid unit, and has no options but to maintain its shape.

There is an alternative to using solid wood for a raised panel. You can use 3/4" plywood. I posted the following suggestion several years ago...

_For rectangular or square door panels one method is to glue up sections of solid wood and then machine the edge detail needed. There are issues with solid wood panels concerning movement. There's also the labor of jointing the sections to be glued, selecting suitable looking pieces to glue up, clamping up, and sanding flat. Those panels may not joint up tight, or stay flat. Glue lines are sometimes noticeable.

An alternative to solid wood for a panel would be to use plywood and adding a solid wood edge. The procedure will facilitate long grain on all the edges. This will eliminate endgrain at the top and bottom of the panel. The same details can be run on the edges. Aestheticaly speaking, an interesting panel can be created with using a different wood specie on the edge.

Using plywood for the major field of the panel permits other advantages. If you don't have or use a rail and stile (cope and stick) bit set to make the rails and stiles, you could simply cut the rails and stiles, machine any profile you want, miter the corners, and rabbet the back edge to receive the panel. This fabrication will permit a full back with no reveals if desired. The panel can be glued in, the mitered corners can be glued, and you wind up with an easy to finish, very stable door with no movement issues. Or, the panel can be machined to be used in a cope and stick process, and be glued into the groove.

A glued panel will also strengthen the stiles that carry the hinges, reducing the twisting forces that a floating panel permits.

I've done this using the same specie for the edging of the plywood, different and/or contrasting wood and the results are excellent. If you have many doors, or large doors, using a hardwood veneer faced plywood for the panels can provide a very uniform grain and color result._









 







.


----------



## Bvh56

Glue it is boys. Thanks all .


----------



## Rebelwork

I dont use any glue on panels on 5 pc doors. Only spaceballs. I dont care what anybody says...Wood,glass,metal etc all expand and contract. Last thing I want to worry about is glue getting all over my panel:thumbdown:


----------



## Steve Neul

I've always glued the panels in on plywood or mdf panel doors. It's the solid wood panels that it is very necessary to let float. If you glue those in, when the wood shrinks the panel will split in two.


----------



## bob sacamano

i ALWAYS glue mine. put glue in the dead center of the panel and it will expand each way from the center out. it will help rattling. 



and firemedic is right when he says plywood wont expand.


----------



## autre

bob sacamano said:


> i ALWAYS glue mine. put glue in the dead center of the panel and it will expand each way from the center out. it will help rattling.


-This is a very interesting (brilliant!) idea to me and it makes a lot of sense. I'm like one percent shy of completely sold on it and that 1% stems from your location. I'm in Ohio. 
Can you, or anyone else who is familiar with this method "sell" me on it 100%?

It seems like something (a method) I would *run* with.


----------



## TS3660

bob sacamano said:


> i ALWAYS glue mine. put glue in the dead center of the panel and it will expand each way from the center out.


This is the same theory I use when putting vinyl siding on a house. They say to not nail it tight so it can move, and it does move...A LOT ! But my theory is that if you don't nail ANY of the nails tight, you have no control over which direction the siding will shrink/grow. So, let's say the piece on the left decides to shrink all toward the left, and the piece to the right decides to shrink all to the right. You could end up with a gap between the pieces, even though there is a 1" overlap. So, what I do is nail each piece tight in the middle and all other nails are left loose. This way, all the pieces of siding always shrink/grow from their center point.


----------



## bob sacamano

autre said:


> -This is a very interesting (brilliant!) idea to me and it makes a lot of sense. I'm like one percent shy of completely sold on it and that 1% stems from your location. I'm in Ohio.
> Can you, or anyone else who is familiar with this method "sell" me on it 100%?
> 
> It seems like something (a method) I would *run* with.


maybe this will help - are there any johnny cash fans here ?

it will work in Kansas City, Sioux City, Cedar City, Dodge City Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota,
Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota,
Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma,
Tampa, Panama, Mattawa, La Paloma,
Bangor, Baltimore, Salvador, Amarillo,
Tocapillo, Baranquilla, and Perdilla

it works everywhere.

even in ohio :thumbsup:


----------



## autre

Sacamano- I'm still laughing as I write this. 

Picture clearly delivered. 100 percent "got".


TS3660- I actually learned this same method (siding) from a guy I worked with last summer. He did it the same way. Same logic. Smart guy.

Maybe that's why it stuck so profoundly in the back of my head. I just needed someone like Sacamano to re-ignite the spark (for lack of a better way of putting it).

Thanks Much Guys.:thumbsup:


----------



## jessrj

Bvh56 said:


> Should I glue the center panels in or let them float on my kitchen cabinet doors. I'm making shaker style doors with red oak frames and using 1/2 inch plywood for the center panels which will have the back side rabbited to fit the grooves of the stiles and rails. Everything will be stained in water base stain if it matters. Thanks



No glue is best, if they rattle when they hit the face frame you can pin them through the back with a 23 gauge 3/8 inch pin. you can't see the hole and it will allow for a little movement without rattling.


----------



## Dave66

I usually put a bit of glue in the center of each rail. It holds panels in place but allows movement.


----------



## Mr_Rick

*To glue or not top glue?*

IMO...if you can account for expansion and contraction and there is little to none with the center panel, I would glue it all round along with the stiles and rails. Fixing the panel from moving provides triangulation necessary to make a stronger, more rigid door.


----------



## Ezee

Make your own spacers out of caulk. Lay a line of caulk on wax paper and let them dry overnight. The next day cut them up and put them in the groves.


----------



## Ryan 4 custom

All i can say is Freud rail and stile bits. They will answer the float or not to float question. Ha ha. Its up to you really Either way they are super strong doors when finished. I just got though building my first four sets of rail and stile doors. Super cool of Freud to walk me through it. Bits with a DVD and paper instructions are about 150 on Amazon and totally worth it.


----------



## windygorge

Float them. After finishing, add clear silicone to the corners on the inside. Rattling solved


----------



## firemedic

Amazing. This thread is over a year old yet people are still going back and forth about whether or not to glue plywood.


----------

