# Shellac vs. Lacquer for the wash coat???



## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi guys! I have been experimenting again and have a quick question that needs to be clarified by the pros :thumbsup:. 

I have read (a lot) about cutting shellac down to about 5% solid for a great wash coat before staining. I have also read that I should be able to do the same with lacquer. I have a (new) gallon of pro-mar hi-bild (Sherwin Williams) clear satin lacquer with a 19.7% solid content. I should be able to use a 3-to-2 thinner to lacquer mix to cut it. Right? 

I am nervous about wasting a gallon of this stuff when I can only find small suggestions without any details when using lacquer vs. shellac.

For note sake, I did try it with a Watco 'brush on' lacquer and it worked well with the exception of a very high ratio to bring it down. I think I ended up at 6-to-1. Guess the 'brush on' is just to solid.

What are your thoughts?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Ryn0nTX said:


> Hi guys! I have been experimenting again and have a quick question that needs to be clarified by the pros :thumbsup:.
> 
> I have read (a lot) about cutting shellac down to about 5% solid for a great wash coat before staining. I have also read that I should be able to do the same with lacquer. I have a (new) gallon of pro-mar hi-bild (Sherwin Williams) clear satin lacquer with a 19.7% solid content. I should be able to use a 3-to-2 thinner to lacquer mix to cut it. Right?
> 
> ...


 You can use just about anything for a wood conditioner. You can thin shellac, lacquer, varnish, poly and even the stain itself to prevent blotching. All it does is seal the soft parts wood so it doesn't sponge up the dark stain. The formula, you will have to tinker with. Depending on the wood you use and how well it's sanded will determine the formula needed. The only thing about using shellac for a wash coat, if you intend to topcoat with polyurethane it should be a de-waxed shellac. 

As far as your 3-2 ratio on the lacquer, it sounds a bit rich. I believe I would try 4 parts thinner to 1 part lacquer and that's for medium to light color stain. Like I said every wood is different so it's just guesswork. I did that on some birch plywood about a month ago and it worked fine. If I was more organized I would write it down but if I did I would never find my notes. 

As far as wasting gallons of lacquer if you have a gravity feed gun you could just mix a couple of ounces to practice with.


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## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks Steve. Yes, i meant 3-1 which i am testing now.


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## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks Steve. Yes, i meant 3-1 which i am testing now.


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## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Sorry for the double post. Here's a pic of my test. Just came inside and looked at the pics. I am trying the app for my new phone so I can post and stuff while in my shop. I will take a better pic where you can see better detail after dinner.


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## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Okay, this may be better. 









you can definitely see the blotch on the untreated section. I think the minwax stuff actually did a better job, but when you compare the cost with the difference, you would start to say 'what difference?' The minwax wood conditioner costs me about $14 a quart and a quart of the lacquer mixture is about $5 when buying the lacquer and thinner by the gallon. 

This piece of wood actually turned out pretty good. I only let the stain sit for about 30 seconds, so it is much lighter than it should be. I am going to try the shellac wash-coat formula soon and come up with a 'best value/best result' solution as I stain about 600' of 1x8's every month and going broke with the minwax product.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Well the lacquer for wood conditioner was probably good to go in 30 minutes but the minwax wood conditioner should have dried overnight before staining so your test is somewhat incomplete. It did real good for rushing it though. Try another test with the stain 1 part stain to 10 parts mineral spirits and let dry overnight and then put the full strength stain on it.


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## Ryn0nTX (Jun 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Well the lacquer for wood conditioner was probably good to go in 30 minutes but the minwax wood conditioner should have dried overnight before staining so your test is somewhat incomplete. It did real good for rushing it though. Try another test with the stain 1 part stain to 10 parts mineral spirits and let dry overnight and then put the full strength stain on it.



Good point. To be honest, I usually do let it sit overnight, but I found that the water based dries pretty darn fast, so for this test I thought I could slip it by ya  

I was going to ask about the potential of the stain being used for the same effect, thanks for the tip. I will give it a shot tomorrow. Would mineral spirits or denatured alcohol work best with the minwax stain in the pic? Thanks again!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Ryn0nTX said:


> Good point. To be honest, I usually do let it sit overnight, but I found that the water based dries pretty darn fast, so for this test I thought I could slip it by ya
> 
> I was going to ask about the potential of the stain being used for the same effect, thanks for the tip. I will give it a shot tomorrow. Would mineral spirits or denatured alcohol work best with the minwax stain in the pic? Thanks again!


 Use mineral spirits in minwax stains. Alcohol is for shellac.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

If you're using the oil based pre stain conditioner the Minwax can says NOT to let it dry before putting on the stain. It says you've got a 2 hour window to slap on the stain over the wood conditioner.

Their directions for the water base are less clear. They suggest sanding after the wood conditioner is put on. And then stain. It doesn't say you have to put on the stain within a certain window. So I'd say you could let it dry for quite a while before staining.


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