# How Do You Plane Thin Stock Into Veneer?



## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

I've been MIA from this forum because I have had my nose buried in my new veneering project (jewelry box). I now own my first walnut burl veneering and cannot wait to put it to use.

Along this new adventure-journey I have had to make two new TS sleds and a new fence/feather board rig for my band saw all of which are doing their respective jobs quite well. 

However, I seem to be having an issue planing thin (approx. 1/16") walnut stock on my DW735 planer. The surface exits the machine looking like it was planed with a machete - the cuts are very choppy.

To be clear, I am taking extremely this cuts, less than 1/4 turn of the wheel. I am beginning to think the issue is with the Hurricane Class Vac that comes built-in with this planer. I think it is lifting the thin stock into the knives as they rotate.

Today I will attempt to disable the vac and see if this will help.

I use an 8' melamine bed that runs through my planer and this has worked very well on the DW735 and my old DW713 planers. 

I have read (in a Jonathan Benson book), that using a 'sliding backer' to transport the thin stock through the planer works very well. This backer has sandpaper adhered to it to hold the thin stock in place as it is passed through the planer. I have not tried this yet, but will later. However, if it is the vac that is lifting the stock into the blades then this backer will not work any better.

If anyone has any other ideas or suggestions, I'm all ears.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Personally I would not try and power-plane 1/16" veneer.

I can get down to 3/32" straight through my 15" planer, but 3 out of 10 times the stock would explode, so it is not worth trying.

I always band-saw down to 3/32" and then hand plane after the veneer has been applied.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I was hoping your absence was not a sign of a problem. Glad to see you back on the forum.

I have the same planer, so I appreciate the force of the fan on the discharge of the machine. This is spread out across the planer, so the velocity at the head should be lower.

I first attempted to plane < 1/8in stock on my previous planer, a Delta 22-580. I was trying to get to 1/16in strips for a friend to use on shaker style boxes.

I was not happy with the results. I had the strips mounted on a 3/4in backer board, so I had reasonable space between the stock and the bottom of the planer.

I even tried double sided tape. This worked in some spots, but not in others.

I concluded 1/16in stock was being lifted by the action of the knives.

I switched to using my drum sander.

I do not think you will be successful on the 735, even with the fan disconnected. This has 3 knives, my Delta only had 2.

If you have a drum sander or access to one, I would use it.

If you do not have access, I would follow WillemJM and plane or sand after applying the veneer.


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## SLAC_Engineer (Feb 23, 2012)

What about using turners tape? Super, double sided tape.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Thanks for the comments. I understand perfectly well about how thin stock can get destroyed in the planer.

Here is my dilemma. The veneer I am using has small pin-holes and cracks that I am afraid with reveal the 1/4" birch ply substrate below. So because of this I was thinking that by adhereing 1/16" walnut between the birch ply and the actual veneer, I would eliminate this potential problem. 

However, getting all of the thin walnut stock down to the same thickness is my problem. Failing to have a uniformly smooth surface beneath the veneer would be disasterous to the end result.

I will readily admit that I have not layed down a single piece of veneer to date. Having said that, I may find that well done veneer work will not be as 'uniformly smooth' as I anticipate it being. I will cross that bridge when I get to it. For the time being, I am trying to think far enough in advance to try and reduce or eliminate any pitfalls that may lay in wait for me. Glaring white spec's peering through the veneer is not something that I or anyone else would appreciate.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

*Problem??*



Dave Paine said:


> I was hoping your absence was not a sign of a problem. Glad to see you back on the forum.


Problem? What problem? Oh, you mean the veneering project you guys have scrambled my brain with? LOL.

Man, I've got digital caliper's hooked up to my bandsaw and all manner of new unheard of inventions for doing precise work unheard of in any wood worker's shop. I wouldn't believe any of that - other than the digital caliper part. 

This is truly one tough project and if I can just get the basic's out of my face, I'll be on my merry way to just starting this jewelry box. The truth is that I am a perfectionist and unless I am completely satisfied with Step A I cannot move on to Step B. It's in my DNA and it is what it is.

Bottom line is that I am loving every second of this because it is making me think very differently about my wood working. In addition, I believe I will emerge a better woodworker for meeting all the demands that veneering requires.

A drum sander did enter my mind, but I do not have one. I may look into one today.

Take care and thanks for all of your comments.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

SLAC_Engineer said:


> What about using turners tape? Super, double sided tape.


That thought has occurred to me try carpet tape (or something similar). The problem may be getting the tape off of the veneer without destroying the veneer in the process. 

Carpet tape would probably stick too well for this purpose.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

My first thought is 1/16 on planer???? I think my sander would maybe even eat it. How about gluing to backer then dealing with difference?


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## nostrildamus (Feb 24, 2009)

How thin can a drum sander get down to?
FYI, Constantine's sells 1/16" veneer


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## Bob R (Sep 22, 2010)

I doubt very much you will be able to make veneer in your shop,the planer won't work and you can't saw cut it either,and i doubt very much a sander will do the job,best bet is to buy what thickness you need and get on with the project.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

mike1950 said:


> My first thought is 1/16 on planer???? I think my sander would maybe even eat it. How about gluing to backer then dealing with difference?


This is what I get for reading those darn'd ol' books. LOL

I can take your comments two ways:

Way One - do as you suggest then try to pry off what's left on the backer, or

Way Two - just leave the thinned down walnut on the birch ply (which is what I planned on using anyway) and then adhere the veneer to this birch ply - walnut combo board. If I do this carefully, the walnut will be nice and even across its surface and that is what I'm after.

To be honest, Way Two has been on my mind as a real solution to my dilemma.

As usual, you knocked it out of the ball park again.

Thanks for the comments and food for thought.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

nostrildamus said:


> FYI, Constantine's sells 1/16" veneer


Thanks for that bit of info. I've only been able to find one good veneer vendor - Joe Woodworker. I will check out Constantine's.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Canarywood said:


> I doubt very much you will be able to make veneer in your shop,the planer won't work and you can't saw cut it either,and i doubt very much a sander will do the job,best bet is to buy what thickness you need and get on with the project.


I actually wasn't trying to make veneer. I'm smarter than that. LOL

I was just trying to thin down some walnut stock to adhere beneath my veener so that the birch ply would not show through the veneer pin holes. By attempting to use the planer I was hoping to dimension these sheets to a uniform thickness.

I could use slightly thicker walnut stock for the same purpose. But taking this too far would affect the dimensions of my jewelry box.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Just curious, how does the planer handle thicker walnut?
I had trouble planing walnut on my planer, and I think it was a sign of dull blades.


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## dwl (May 28, 2009)

First off, I am not experienced enough to offer any real world opinion, so take this for what it is.

Here are a couple of possible ideas:
1. I was reading something the other day about guys using white glue and paper (even newspaper) to temporarily adhere smaller pieces to larger more manageable pieces. Once you are done, you can simply wet the pieces and seperate them since the glue is not waterproof and the paper between the pieces of wood should keep them from joining each other more permanently.

2. If you are planning on adding a thin layer of walnut to the birch piece and then veneering more walnut onto the top of the walnet covered birch, can you sandwich some walnut and birch together then resaw through the walnut then plane both pieces of walnut covered birch to youe desired thickness?

3. Can you color the birch dark (walnut color) before applying the veneer so the pinholes would not show "white" spots from the birch underneath?

I hope these thoughts help or at least get you thinking about other (better) more creative ways to get past your problem.

Good luck.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I've made some pretty thin peices on the bandsaw*

Quite accidentally. :laughing: They were "off falls" from the primary saved piece, but I was impressed how thin they were, less than 1/16". They were a bit rough because of the blade set.
Here's the big question for me...how big are the pieces and can they be resawn from a wide plank/board. 
If they are 6" or 7" wide then I think you can probably do it. You bandsaw would have to be tuned perfectly and a fine set blade used rather than the typical 3 TPI resaw blade. 
It would seem that if you glued them to a thin substrate like 1/8" plywood you could then plane the by hand to get a smooth surface or just just a ROS with progressively finer grits.
Without know the exact application, it's difficult to know the size, the joinery, the thickness etc. .....:blink: bill


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

dwl, you have some exceptional ideas.



dwl said:


> First off, I am not experienced enough to offer any real world opinion, so take this for what it is.
> 
> Here are a couple of possible ideas:
> 1. I was reading something the other day about guys using white glue and paper (even newspaper) to temporarily adhere smaller pieces to larger more manageable pieces. Once you are done, you can simply wet the pieces and seperate them since the glue is not waterproof and the paper between the pieces of wood should keep them from joining each other more permanently.


I've done this same or similar process for carving. You glue newspaper onto MDF then glue to piece to be carved onto the newspaper. When done you take a chisel or whatever, and pry the carving from the newspaper. This works as I've have personal experience doing this. However, the carving can handle the prying. I do not think thin walnut can handle the prying or the water necessary to separate the two members. I have _not_ done this, but it may be worth a try.



dwl said:


> 2. If you are planning on adding a thin layer of walnut to the birch piece and then veneering more walnut onto the top of the walnet covered birch, can you sandwich some walnut and birch together then resaw through the walnut then plane both pieces of walnut covered birch to youe desired thickness?


Good idea, but in my case the birch ply is 12"x13" (which represents one side of my jewelry box) and my band saw can only handle 8-1/4". This is why I am adding two sheets of walnut to the birch ply: 8"x13" and 4"x13". This will cover the birch ply.



dwl said:


> 3. Can you color the birch dark (walnut color) before applying the veneer so the pinholes would not show "white" spots from the birch underneath?


Ah, now you're peeking into my brain. This is actually Plan B. I have some alcohol soluble Dark Walnut dye that may work perfectly for this. However, I really wanted to try and add the walnut layer first, but as we now know, this creates other issues of its own which must be resolved before we can move forward. 

And, one more thing: the adhesive I will be using is supposed to dry to a dark color, so this may be all that will be needed.
But, again, I have not done any testing so I cannot be certian. If all goes well tomorrow, I will get some serious testing done and will know a bit more.

(Note. COMED has not been able to keep us in power for most of this past week. This has slowed my progress to a snail's pace and I'm not a bit happy about this at all.)



dwl said:


> I hope these thoughts help or at least get you thinking about other (better) more creative ways to get past your problem.
> 
> Good luck.


You're a thinker alright and that's a good thing in my book.

Thanks for stopping by to lend a hand.


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## scsmith42 (Jan 24, 2011)

I have sanded thousands of square feet of 1/16" thick veneer in an EMC wide belt sander. I start off at around 1/8" thick, and remove about .030 from each side in the sander. The veneer turns out great.

I cant speak to a drum sander, but my widebelt works fine.

Planing stock that thin usually does not yield good results.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

Sorry but first suggestion would be we NEED pictures. Second is why are we-you using birch backer- I thought we wanted it to look like solid walnut. Thus use -----walnut. I have made my own veneer- cut it 13" wide 1/8 thick on bandsaw sanded it on 16/32 performax down to smooth 1/16". Was not the way to get burl look you want though. Pictures I am confused- don't worry though I am used to that I am married. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## BassBlaster (Nov 21, 2010)

Not sure what your project is and I have never worked with veneer before but I have a couple ideas that I would try if I was doing it.

I think I would just apply the veneer to the birch and then mix up some colored epoxy to fill any voids/cracks/pinholes etc. Your going to want to fill those to get a smooth surface anyhow, correct? Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Another thought is to stain the birch prior to applying the veneer since your just trying to achieve a color to hide the defects and not really needing the extra thickness.


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

chicago said:


> I was just trying to thin down some walnut stock to adhere beneath my veener so that the birch ply would not show through the veneer pin holes. By attempting to use the planer I was hoping to dimension these sheets to a uniform thickness.


Can't you just laminate the walnut stock directly to the ply, _then_ plane it to thickness? If you do all sides of the box at the same time, you can ensure that they are all exactly the same thickness. 

After you do that, you can apply the burl veneer, cut to size, yada yada yada...

Just be sure to plane the walnut between resaws to give yourself a flat face to glue to the ply.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Pirate said:


> Just curious, how does the planer handle thicker walnut?
> I had trouble planing walnut on my planer, and I think it was a sign of dull blades.


Walnut is basically a softwood although, technically, it is classified as a hardwood. Having said that, walnut should not cause any problems in your planer. However, it will dull blades like any other wood, but perhaps not as quickly as rock maple will.

Dull blades are never a good idea regardless of the machine or hand they are in.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Streamwinner said:


> Can't you just laminate the walnut stock directly to the ply, _then_ plane it to thickness? If you do all sides of the box at the same time, you can ensure that they are all exactly the same thickness.


This may be a very workable solution.



Streamwinner said:


> Just be sure to plane the walnut between resaws to give yourself a flat face to glue to the ply.


I hear ya. Sounds to me like you've been there, done that.

Thanks for the great comments.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Quite accidentally. :laughing: They were "off falls" from the primary saved piece, but I was impressed how thin they were, less than 1/16". They were a bit rough because of the blade set.


Yes, in spite of my personal amateurish wood working skills, it is indeed impressive how thin a finely tuned bandsaw can slice a board. I've attached a few photos of an 8"x17" walnut slice for your perusal.

I've also attached a drawing showing the actual thickness of the perimeter of this walnut slice. While wanting to achieve a thickness of 1/16" (0.0875"), the results were less than stellar. Since I have nothing to compare these results to, they may be in the 'ball park' (or not!) as these things go.



woodnthings said:


> Here's the big question for me...how big are the pieces and can they be resawn from a wide plank/board.
> If they are 6" or 7" wide then I think you can probably do it. You bandsaw would have to be tuned perfectly and a fine set blade used rather than the typical 3 TPI resaw blade.
> It would seem that if you glued them to a thin substrate like 1/8" plywood you could then plane the by hand to get a smooth surface or just just a ROS with progressively finer grits.
> Without know the exact application, it's difficult to know the size, the joinery, the thickness etc. .....:blink: bill


I've been using a Wood Slicer for these cuts, but that is going to change in the very near future. I have a few Timber Wolf 3/4" AS-S on order and which were reviewed here. 

I've used Wood Slicer's for a number of years, but do so reluctantly. I think they are over-priced and do not hold their edge as well as one would expect after having paid a premium price of nearly double that of other comparable blades. In the past I have retuned several due to poor weld alignment. Having disclosed all of this, I am ready to move on to a different brand of band saw blades. 

Hopefully, the Timber Wolf's will git 'er done for me. I have used TW blades in the past, but in narrower width's and not for the precision work I am now trying to achieve. I am very anxious to try these blades. 

I recently returned some Olson blades that claimed a 0.025" thickness, but were 0.030" on average.

There are a lot of variables in this bandsaw slicing business and I have much to learn.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I think you are doin' great!*

I do see the plank starting to cup away from the fence.... ?:blink:
If that's the case, I would alternate faces and plane the rough face in the planer or by hand. That can become your "finished" surface when that piece is the off fall. When I resaw I run the plank over the jointer, if it's not too wide, then make another resaw pass, but a planer would work also especially on wider boards.

Having said that your veneer looks really nice, a bit thinner than I thought also. The Woodslicer blades have a good reputation, but as you say at 2X the price I'm not buying. I use TW in a 3TPI, either 1/2" oe 3/4" from Grizzly. I also weld my own from 100 ft bulk rolls in 1/2" Starret blade stock, usually. I have a commercial welder and grind the flash off with a Dremel type tool. I have also sharpened my 3 TPI with the Dremel on the machine for a quick and productive tune up. Like this:





I finally found a use for the Roto-Zip tool I had, but never used. With an 1/8" collet it's got a 4.5 AMP motor, not easily slowed down....


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

*Turning bad into good*

Well, I've learned a lot today.

The Bad
I took the shroud off of the Hurricane Class Vac on my DW735 to see if this would keep from lifting my very thin walnut sheet into the blades and it did not work. See Exhibition Photo A below.

The Good
I then decided that the best bet was going to be to glue two pieces of thin walnut to the 1/4" birch ply and then run the walnut-birch ply combo through the planer. This worked just as expected. See the next two photos. The first shows the paper tape used to pull the walnut together and the next show the result after pass through the DW735.

The last photo is just to keep me honest. It shows the edge of the walnut-birch ply laminate.

So, all I can say is 'Not too shabby for a veneer rookie.' Now, all I have to do is do this a few thousand times more and I'll qualify for my first Veneer Badge. LOL

I sandwiched this together in my homemade veneer press which - to my astonishment, actually worked. Instead of carpet underlay, I used one of the semi-stiff foam pads meant to be walked on. They come is colors and lock together. I cut one of these to match my melamine veneer press and it worked. I think it is visible in the last photo.

If anyone sees any errors in my thinking, please let me know.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> I do see the plank starting to cup away from the fence.... ?:blink:
> If that's the case I would alternated faces and planing the rough face in the planer or by hand. That can become your "finished" surface when that piece is the off fall. When I resaw I run the plank over the jopinter, if it's not too wide, then make another resaw pass, but a planer would work also especially on wider boards.
> 
> Having said that your veneer looks really nice, a bit thinner than I thought also. The Woodslicer blades have a good reputation, but as you say at 2X the price I'm not buying. I use TW in a 3TPI, either 1/2" oe 3/4" from Grizzly. I also weld my own from 100 ft bulk rolls in 1/2" Starret blade stock, usually. I have a commercial welder and grind the flash off with a Dremel type tool. I have also sharpened my 3 TPI with the Dremel on the machine for a quick and productive tune up.
> ...


I had no idea it was possible to sharpen a dull band saw blade that easily. The blade in the video is held pretty stiffly. He must have some sort of rig to do that.

Thanks for the info.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no jig*

I've done it that way myself:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/bandsaw-blade-sharpening-diy-10872/




chicago said:


> I had no idea it was possible to sharpen a dull band saw blade that easily. The blade in the video is held pretty stiffly. He must have some sort of rig to do that.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> I've done it that way myself:
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/bandsaw-blade-sharpening-diy-10872/


Thanks for the link and the info.

I was wondering today if my chainsaw diamond bit and Dremel (emergency chain saw gear) would work for this and you just cleared that up. 

Sweet!


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