# Cut-off or radial arm saw... or both?



## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

I have a rather congested 1200 square foot workshop I call "NetDoc's Grotto". As an automotive mechanic for thirty years, with a 4 year stint in a machine shop, most of my tools are made for dealing with steel and mechanical objects. Also, since I am an avid Scuba Diver, Instructor and make a living as the owner of the world's largest website devoted to all things Scuba, I have a large portion of it devoted to being a dive locker as well having a regulator rebuilding and test bench. I'll post pictures in a bit. 

About a quarter of this space is devoted to a bunch of wood (mostly oak) that seems to be left from taking out a bunch of cabinets, and in front of that are my table and cut-off saw. I just added a planer and am in the middle of creating a woodworking bench. As I am looking at the one wall, I am thinking that I could make it far more usable if I turned it into a bench for routing and added a radial arm saw. That, or I need to replace my Delta compound cut-off saw with with a sliding version. I also need to do something to make my Ryobi 10" saw a bit more mobile as well as get rid of some of the clutter. I mean, who really needs to have 6 servers and an audio housing sitting around? I need to get rid of them and now. 

So, what are your thoughts about a cut-off saw compared to a radial arm saw?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the can of worms has been opened*

I have several of each so I can give you my thoughts. 
The sliding compound miter saws are the way to go IF that's that way you chose to go.

A Radial Arm Saw is a heavier beast, ans is designed for stationary use, where as the miter saws are somewhat portable and can be shelved when not in use, as I do. My RAS gets used a lot for squaring the ends of long boards, taking a thin slice to trim a piece to length and it ALWAYS stay locked at 90 degrees to the fence. Any angle cuts are done with a miter gauge or sled on the table saw OR the SCM miter saw. The major complaint re RAS is that they won't go back to a previous setting accurately. To get around that you can make a jig to cut miters at 45 degrees on place it on the table still keeping the setting a 90 degrees. OR you can accurately set up your RAS and see how that goes. The older Deltas are favored for greater accuracy. The older Craftsman saws I have probably can be made to work accurately with some tinkering. 

You are confessing to having too many hobbies and too little space so a large RAS and long table would seem to be out of the picture, but that's the way I have mine setup.

I have a 10" Bosch and a 12" Dewalt CSMS, both sliders. I don't carry the Dewalt around much but the smaller Bosch does a real fine job on everything I asked of it. If I were doing a lot of miters like frames and such I'd use my table saw and fine tune the sled for exact 45 degree cuts. For occasional miters a miter guage with a fence extension works great. I like the Incra with the positive stops for all the degree settings. The Osborne has a sliding arm that's accurate also.... around $100 or so. Small pieces need to be very well controlled on a SCMS or your fingers will show up on the floor.
A sled on the table saw is safer in my opinion...... .02 cents


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## keith long (Jan 25, 2013)

If space is an issue, then go with the miter saw.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

NetDoc said:


> So, what are your thoughts about a cut-off saw compared to a radial arm saw?


How many of each type and the brands seem irrelevant to your question. Getting back to the question...if you have the room, and can afford them, I would have both. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. That would give you more choices in what to use.


















.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

I am semi-retired, and don't do this for a living. However, I am using my talents and tools to benefit ScubaBoard, so I guess I can call it work. I love to work with my hands and Tim Allen has nothing on me when it comes to loving tools. I think I've always loved the Radial Arm Saw. It has something to do with seeing them in my friends' garages growing up. I don't think they used them much, but boy did they make a statement. Right now, I want to be able to cross cut long boards easily. Often, on my 10" COS, I am flipping the board over to get the last part. It's never, ever perfect, and that's not good enough for me. I kinda like the idea of keeping the radial saw locked at 90 and using the table saw for all the fine stuff. I'm also tired of the wood mess keeping me fro utilizing that wall. I saw a nifty wood rack for the wall that would get it up and out of the way and allow me to have this bench along the wall. I have fifteen feet or so to work with.

Edit: So, I only need one of each tool. I don't need/want multiples. I think I own three routers, and really, two are in the way. I have my CCOS set up on a tool cabinet that contains mostly woodworking tools. That cabinet should up against the wall somewhere and not in the middle. It hogs the room and makes it hard to use my table saw, which simply needs more space.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

if you have the space, a radial arm saw is more useful. if not, then the miter saw is the better choice.

if it were me, i'd do my darndest to make the space for the RAS


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

After getting a good RAS, I haven't used my cut off saw. crosscutting long boards is the main use. Making dados, can be a lot faster than on a table saw.
I have a very small shop, but wouldn't give up the ras.
After changing the arm from 90 degrees, it takes me about 2-3 test cuts to get it square again. Maybe 1-2 minutes tops. Not a big deal. Once set, it stays set.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I do not have and have never had a Radial Arm Saw. Nor have I ever had a desire for one. My sliding, compound miter saw does all I have ever needed.

Of course, as has been said, if you have the space and money adding another tool is always a good idea. You can probably find a use for it.

George


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Ask 10 different woodworkers and get perhaps 20 different answers.

I had an RAS from 1983 until 2010. I used it a lot to construct extensions, framing rooms etc.

Once I started to make projects needing precision, I found the RAS went out of calibration if I moved the arm, so then this became a dedicated 90 deg only cross cut machine.

I later purchased a sliding compound mitre saw, and the RAS was only used for the deepest cross cuts.

I did not get my first table saw until 2003. Then my RAS was used even less.

In 2010 I purchased a lathe and needed to find the floor space in my shop so I have to displace the RAS, gave it to a friend.

At the same period I upgraded the SCMS to the Bosch 12in Glider, which has almost the same cross cut as my RAS.

I think it depends on the kinds of projects you need to do. If you can only fit one tool in the shop and need to cross cut and rip, then an RAS may be the way to go, but be prepared for frequent calibrations.

My RAS needed 3 hex headed screws to be loosened to calibrate. They were at the back of the arm, and since the RAS was up against the wall, this was always a pain for me.

If you have the space for SCMS and table saw, this would be my preference these days.


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## Toolman2 (Jun 15, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> if you have the room, and can afford them, I would have both. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. That would give you more choices in what to use.


That's what I've done. I custom built a heavy duty workbench to mount my RAS and SCMS inline with a section of commercial rollers in between. I use the SCMS mostly, but I use the RAS for a lot of dado work and for wider boards. It's a 1950 Delta Red Star that I refurbished and it works like a champ.:thumbsup:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

What's the cutting capability of the older craftsman saws at 90 deg?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*one important difference ... dados*

Let's assume the space requirements are similar when cutting longer boards. You have a stand for the SCMS which can be over 6 ft long, you have a table on your RAS which is 5 ft long. The front to back depth will be about the same. Pretty similar so far, however a SCMS will not accept a dado cutter.  One of the best ways to make half laps is a dado cutter on the RAS. A bookshelf with dados is another good operation. A stop can be set on the fence to get perfectly spaced dados on each vertical support like this:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/shelf-spacing-made-simple-using-ras-47095/

Oh sure, you can nibble away the material, making pass after pass and achieve a dado that way, but it may not be precise in width. And you can make shelf dado using a router and guide, but for half laps, and ease of set up, I prefer a RAS with a dado cutter. The large flat table on a RAS allows for various jigs to be secured as well. You can also rotate the motor so the shaft is vertical and use the large table to make moldings with the proper cutter. One advantage is the motor on a RAS is an induction type and is more quiet than the universal AC/DC types with brushes. The newer SCMS have motor brakes with stop the blade a little sooner than a 
with the motor brake, not much though as I recall.

Finally, you can find used RAS all day long on Craig's List for $200 or so and you would not find a good SCMS for that easily.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*capacity*



ryan50hrl said:


> What's the cutting capability of the older craftsman saws at 90 deg?


That depends on the fence location and how high it is off the table. My fence is 2" high and that allows the blade to be protected for that thick of material and not be exposed. This is necessary because you may want to slide the work under the blade while it's turning and not bump it when you adjust your length of cut.
My saw's capacity in 3/4" thick material is 15" with that fence set up. I could get 16" if I moved the fence toward the rear of the table.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

I use mine solely for Dado'ing and nothing beats it for that. Everything else I use my SCMS or table saw. Only cost me $100 off of Craigslist, but it does have a pretty big footprint. If I didn't have space, it would be the one I'd get rid of and move all Dado'ing to the table saw. Fortunately I have the luxury of keeping it, though.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Here is a video of my workshop:


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

OK, I've been looking for a nice radial saw since I began this thread. I really didn't see anything out there that I would spend as much as the seller wanted. However, yesterday I just happened to see a Craigslist ad for a radial saw and a free generator. Yeah, I don't know how they connect, except that this guy is moving off of land on to his 50ft Morgan. It's been sitting under a tarp and the table has floofed with the damp here in the Keys. I just downloaded the manual and ordered the hand wheel that raises and lowers the saw. The saw cost me $20 and the time it took to drive to Geiger Key, so I'm sure I wasn't taken... much. 

Now I need to build a table for it. Can anyone give me a clue here? How big? How do I attach the fence? Do I make it out of MDF? I'm going to raise it to match my cut-off saw and make a unified bench for that and incorporate a router table in there as well. I'll post a picture tomorrow of the work area as it's progressing.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

No advice on the table? I was really hoping to get an idea on how to proceed before I jumped into the process.

So far, I have found this article: http://woodworking.about.com/od/dealingwithproblems/qt/RadialArmTable.htm and I have also bought a 24"x 48" 3/4" MDF sheet. I know I need to put in a fence of some sort, but where is up in the air. Just in front of the blade? Is there a sweet spot that will give me the longest cut for most boards? Should I dado a groove for the fence to sit in? Should I use hardwood for the fence or just a strip of MDF? How high should the fence be? Should I make it easily replaceable, or should I just replace the entire top when it gets ratty?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*RAS table*

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/12-radial-arm-saw/

I made this table that extends about 40' or so to the left out of 3/4 plywood. I am right handed and pull the saw with my right hand and hold the work firm to the fence with my left. The long fence is a 1 X 2" that's about 7 ft long. I can clamp a stop to it for making identical length cutoffs. The more support on the left side, the longer the workpiece can be and have support underneath it. 
The saw base has 2 angle piece that are supposed to level out the table. I simply eliminated those and attached my table directly to the frame of the base. 

I screwed the fence to the one large sheet of plywood rather than making it in 2 separate pieces and weakening it. I can square the fence easier that way to the blade in the 90 degree locked position, since the arm is not adjustable.

Dust collection is a simple box at the rear of the blade hooked to one shop vac below the table and another smaller hose is hooked to a second smaller shop vac which sit on top of the table, probably overkill, but it really gets all the dust.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

How far is the fence from the back? Did you dado the top to accept the fence or is it just screwed in from above?


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

You have a big place as compared to my one car garage with a lot of stuff stored in it and some woodworking tools.
I am finishing up a miter saw station and so far, it has worked out great. I put the Kreg precision measuring system on it. 

I still have to finish up the cabinets and put the drawer fronts on.

Here are a few pics.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

NetDoc said:


> How far is the fence from the back? Did you dado the top to accept the fence or is it just screwed in from above?


I located the fence so the saw blade will be safely behind it when sliding a 1 1/2" thick piece along the fence for a cross cut. It is just screwed to the top, no dado, so I can move it if needed. It's actually an "L" shaped assembly of 2 pieces. I used 1 1/2" angle along the front and back of the base to support the added length to the left. I really like this system and use it fro almost all my 90 degree crosscuts. I use a 60 tooth thin kerf Freud Diablo blade designed for miter and radial saws with negative or low angle hook to the teeth.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

NetDoc,

I don't think you said what kind of saw you got. If it's a 10" Craftsman, depending on the model, it may be subject to a recall campaign. If so, Sears will send you a new table top and guard for free (or send you $100 to junk the saw).

If that's not the case, in addition to the excellent advice you already got, do a web search for a "Mr. Sawdust' table plans by Wally Kunkel. He used two layers of MDF with metal bracing glued between. A dead flat table is critical to accurate cuts on a RAS.

Bill


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

NetDoc said:


> ...Did you dado the top to accept the fence or is it just screwed in from above?


The fence is two pieces of 1x screwed into the top.













Be sure to leave a substantial gap in the screws to either side of the blade.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Great info. Yeah, I stumbled upon that recall and ordered whatever they are sending me. Does it really include the table? I got it from here: http://radialarmsawrecall.com/


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> You have a big place as compared to my one car garage with a lot of stuff stored in it and some woodworking tools.
> I am finishing up a miter saw station and so far, it has worked out great. I put the Kreg precision measuring system on it.
> 
> I still have to finish up the cabinets and put the drawer fronts on.
> ...


That's beautiful. I see that it's on castors. Can you lock it down so it doesn't move?


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

On reading the recall notice from Emerson, it only includes the guard. http://radialarmsawrecall.com/#pressrelease


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*they may have changed policy*



NetDoc said:


> On reading the recall notice from Emerson, it only includes the guard. http://radialarmsawrecall.com/#pressrelease


I did the recall thing at least 2 times and got the new tables both times as well as the guards. Shipping that heavy particle board may be the issue, I donno?

Here's the official site: http://www.radialarmsawrecall.com/


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

NetDoc said:


> That's beautiful. I see that it's on castors. Can you lock it down so it doesn't move?


Yes sir. It is nice and sturdy.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> I did the recall thing at least 2 times and got the new tables both times as well as the guards. Shipping that heavy particle board may be the issue, I donno?


 Well, they don't state that they include it, but every reference I have seen says that they do. Let's hope it's so! 


MT Stringer said:


> Yes sir. It is nice and sturdy.


 So, what's the mechanism entail? Is it a simple castor lock or do they retract somehow?


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

@netdoc...just simple casters with brakes on 4 of the eight wheels.

I built two cabinets and then built a version of the Ron Paulk miter saw station. Then I bolted the three pieces together. The casters make it easy to move around so I can get behind it if necessary. Next up is to route the piping so my miter saw, and a couple of sanders can be hooked up to the shop vac/dust deputy.

Note: The Kreg measuring trak really makes it easy and quick to make repeated cuts without measuring each board or setting up a manual stop block. When I am building one of my coolers, I need several sizes and the flip stop top blocks an the fixed production stop allow me to set up the lengths needed and then I simply choose which one that is needed as I cut then from a board. That lets me quickly use the good parts of the boards and cut out the bad pieces thereby maximizing the wood by using the various lengths available with the stops.





Hope this helps.
Mike


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Ok, I will have to do more than just add a table to make this saw work. The mechanism to make it go up and down is not functioning. On disassembly, I was able to determine why:


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

All the parts are soaking or in the vibratory cleaner right now. I'm about finished with lunch, so I am going back downstairs to rinse off the soaked pieces and dry them off with compressed air. The stuff going through the vibratory cleaner will be taken out in the morning. I was very happy that I was able to break the raising screw loose. I wire brushed it on the bench grinder and will be doing the same for the shaft that goes forward to the crank as well as the cylinder that moves up and down. The bevel gears look to be in great shape, so I should be OK when it's all cleaned up. 

I have to make a decision at some point. Do I raise the radial arm saw or lower the chop saw? I really, really like the chop saw on top of that cabinet. It's been there for years, and the steel legs for the RAS are missing the levelers and two of them are missing the plate to even put the levelers into. My initial thought is to build a base that raises it and that gives me some of the functionality as MT Stringer's set up.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

BTW, I am thinking about using a moly grease or an anti-seize like coppa-slip for the raising screw. There were no woodchips down the tube that protects it, so I don't think I have to worry about accumulating crud. Most of the other sliding parts will be getting a coat of the teflon spray we use on Scuba Gear: Sail-kote. Anyone see any problems with that?


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

That looks like a job for a Ford mechanic! :icon_smile:

Just kidding of course.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

@NetDoc - I now have my router table attached to the left end of the miter saw station. Wow what a pleasure it is to be working at a raised height...no more bending over to operate the router. And that gives me an additional 32 inches for boards to rest on when using the miter saw.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Here is the router table setup. I used some metal angle fro HD to make a bracket so I can remove it if needed.

I just mounted the start/stop switch. It was on clearance at Lowe's for less that $4. I couldn't pass it up. And it has two places to plug in tools so you can start you router and the shop vac with the paddle switch. The only drawback I see with the switch is it is made to be bolted to the thin metal leg of the Kreg router table stand. Fortunately, I had a piece of aluminum angle that fit just right. Four holes later and it was a done deal. 

Note: The pull out tray is for my air compressor which is being used in the back yard today.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

MT Stringer said:


> That looks like a job for a Ford mechanic!


 Thirty years in automotive come in handy. I found myself stamping the caps so I can get them back in the same order. Probably overkill since there are no revolutions involved, but you can't be too careful. Shining up the pole is taking a lot of effort, but you guys already knew that.    fortunately, it seems to be cleaning up down to the metal fairly nicely. I'm sure I'll have a stain or two, but maybe not. I just cant afford to reduce that diameter or I'll introduce slop. 

I did a few other projects today in the shop. Made a couple of holders out of oak for my t-handle hex wrenches.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I have no doubt that it will look good and operate like a new one when you get finished.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

NetDoc.
Imho you would be far ahead of the game if you trashed that ras. I've had quite a few CM ras's and I rate that model at the bottom. The best ones were made in the 60's and 70's. It's a shame the 60's and 70's models are some of the ones they don't make a recall kit for, and give people $100 to send the motor in. They are well worth keeping, without the extra safety guard, but many are being trashed for the $100 recall.

If you find one that has a motor that looks like this, it's one of the best ones. Btw, the motor has a flat bottom, with a threaded holes, and is perfect to attach a router to the end opposite the blade.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Well, I've got a lot of sweat equity in this one so far and I'm not even sure I'll like a RAS. I'll finish this one up and see what comes up. For $20 and a third of a tank of gas, I got this and a generator. The one thing I really don't understand is how people on Craigslist say something is "perfect" and it's covered in rust. That wasn't the case here, but most of the saws people wanted money for were just in horrible condition. When I lived in a small house I had my tools stored in a warehouse. Sure enough, they all had a light coating of rust. You would be hard pressed to find a rusty tool in my shop after a month out of storage. Yeah, there is one drawer of "crap tools" that have some rust on them. These are my beater, open to be modified tools. That's one reason I put in AC in the Grotto: to keep rust at bay.


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## Toolman2 (Jun 15, 2010)

dodgeboy77 said:


> NetDoc,
> 
> I don't think you said what kind of saw you got. If it's a 10" Craftsman, depending on the model, it may be subject to a recall campaign. If so, Sears will send you a new table top and guard for free (or send you $100 to junk the saw).


What's nice about the saw not being covered it that you'll get $100 back for sending in just the motor assembly. You still have the remainder of the saw for parts or for mounting a router in.:thumbsup:


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Here are pics from today's fun in the Grotto: 










An almost perfect finish on the pole. The wire wheel was taking way too long, so I tried a roloc. WOW, that was fast and it didn't remove the underlying finish. I can still see the machine marks. I think it only took me ten minutes to get to that point. The compressor kept up, so I just kept at it until it looked good. 










The tumbled bolts look acceptable. I lost one E-clip during disassembly, so I'll have to replace it. I might even have one here. 










The motor cradle is about to be disassembled. 










Rust and grunge on the tracks have to be cleaned up










This is more than surface dust. I'll put all these into the course tumble media for the next 24 hours. 










All this is coming apart to be cleaned. I'll be putting the elevating pole together while the other stuff is cleaning. 

OK, first hitch. I have the two pinions assembled and they turn easily. I can move the pole up and down until I put the caps on. I guess I'm going to disassemble everything but the pole and make sure I can slide it up and down easily first. Anyone have an idea on this?


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

You know, I remember working on a few model A engines many, many years ago. You have to scrape the babbit on the bearings to fit them to the crank. While I shouldn't have to do that here, we did tap the cap to make it go "square". I ruined a couple of bearings by over scraping them when the problem was bad alignment of the cap to the block. Modern automotive engine bearing caps are pinned, or the bolt has a proper shoulder to keep the cap aligned with the block or connecting rod. I noticed that these had a lot of play as I assembled them, so maybe just a tap is in order. I'll check it out tomorrow.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Wow, I went back down to the grotto after I took a shower and tapped on the bolts and now I can at least move it by pushing and pulling. I don't think it's smooth enough, but I want to reassemble the screw mechanism and see. I'll do that tomorrow. We have dinner guests coming over.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there was another member with that type of arm*

He complained about the slop in the carriage as it travels on the rails and it was a matter of adjusting the "cam" bolts to snug it up. After you get it cleaned and reassembled make certain to get the carriage snug on the rails enough to move freely without any play.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

I loosened the side pieces up completely. That's the four hex driven bolts that are used to zero the 90 degree cut. I didn't see an adjustment on these bearing caps.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

NetDoc, What media do you use for tumbling hardware? Do you use a drum tumbler, or vibration one?
I have a vibrating one, but haven't used it yet.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

I start with a coarse pyramid looking media and finish up with walnut shells. It's a vibratory tumbler. You have to be patient with it. I tumble in 24 hour segments. The rust was harsh on this last batch, so the first run was over 36 hours. 

FWIW, I have spent a lot of time on the arm height adjusting mechanism. It is anything but smooth. What a pain.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*types of carriages*

The older type here has the v groove rollers on the outside of the rails:









I think you have a newer type where there is a center rail and the rollers ride inside the housing:








The newer type is more difficult to right setup right according to the thread that was posted here.... that I can't find :furious:. I'll keep trying.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks for looking. Right now I need to diagnose WHY this tube isn't moving like I think it should. When I just snug down the bolts on the two bearing caps, it becomes difficult to raise and lower. I haven't even put the arm on it yet. The caps are loose on the bolts as I am tightening them down. I can move them an 1/8" up down or sideways with no problem. They can't be aligned properly and I'm sure this is my problem. They are binding and that's not acceptable. Bearing cap surfaces are way smooth. I had a dingle berry hone for a brake caliper that was the perfect size. Afterwards, I smoothed the bearing cap with 1000 grit emery.


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## NetDoc (Aug 6, 2013)

I have spent hours trying to make this work. I finally put shims under each saddle on the outside of the bolts. 0.018" on one side and 0.020" on the other. My plastigauge now reads 0.0025" of clearance and the tube moves smoothly, albeit a bit tightly. Mitigating this has been having my truck stolen, teaching far more than I usually do, getting the flu and trying to find a replacement truck. On top of this, I don't have a clear head on how the saw came apart. Luckily I took scads of pictures during the breakdown and I have the manual. I'll be going out tomorrow to look at 2 used Sprinters and an E-250. I think one will make the best Scuba-mobile.


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