# Dust collection improvement expriment.



## rrbrown

OK I have a 1 1/2 hp dust collector that has the original 30 micron bags that I thought were 5 micron when I purchased it. I have 4" PVC duct through a homemade chip collector and all around the shop.

My plan is to use this canister filter to improve to .5 micron and give me more airflow. I'm also building a new thien can separator but with 6" PVC duct everywhere. This should also greatly improve the volume of air by allowing for higher velocity at each tool where it will reduce down to 4 " PVC for the blast gate.

I'm testing original configuration and every step through the process. I have this device "Wind Wizard" to test the air speed at around 2-3 inches away from the blast gate. I also plan on testing distance to pick up dust and a small object to see if it improves as changes are made.

If anyone has ideas about testing I'm listening.

*pictures or coming*


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## woodnthings

*Remember the Oreck Bowling ball test?*

I wondered if such a test would work for the DC systems, so I did a search to find out what that was about and found this, pretty interesting: http://www.ristenbatt.com/bowlball.mv
and this one: http://www.ristenbatt.com/smpower.mv
I really surprised that there is not some gizmo the you cap over the end of your DC hose and it tells you what the suction or flow rate is. Maybe someone has seen something like that?  bill


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## mdntrdr

woodnthings said:


> I really surprised that there is not some gizmo the you cap over the end of your DC hose and it tells you what the suction or flow rate is. Maybe someone has seen something like that?  bill


 
I would think you could find a vaccum guage that would work on a DC system. 

Maybe mount it on an end cap. :smile:


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## BWSmith

Look in HVAC world......we have one that measures in "inches of water"?Anyhow you drill a 1/4" hole and stick this thing in and it tells you the vacumn.The one we purchased a hundred years ago(haha)was/is used for setting up oilburner dampers.It was a "luxury" tool to be sure.But after the system is setup its rarely a thought.I thought about testing our DC....just never "done" it?


Might check with any HVAC or oil burner friends and see if they'll come and check your system.Its called a "draft gauge".BW


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## rrbrown

mdntrdr said:


> I would think you could find a vaccum guage that would work on a DC system.
> 
> Maybe mount it on an end cap. :smile:





BWSmith said:


> Look in HVAC world......we have one that measures in "inches of water"?Anyhow you drill a 1/4" hole and stick this thing in and it tells you the vacumn.The one we purchased a hundred years ago(haha)was/is used for setting up oilburner dampers.It was a "luxury" tool to be sure.But after the system is setup its rarely a thought.I thought about testing our DC....just never "done" it?
> 
> 
> Might check with any HVAC or oil burner friends and see if they'll come and check your system.Its called a "draft gauge".BW


I thought about that but I also got this feeling that it wouldn't work correctly. I'm going to check it out though I'm hoping that testing as much as possible will show what works and how much. There are so many opinions on dust collection this may help others in the future.


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## Jackfre

*Check*

Dwyer Instruments. You could go with a dial manometer or you could look at UEI for a digital. Check with your local Johnstone Supply or google can be your friend. These will tell you where your duct systems are to long. As noted, put the sensing tube in perpendicular to the air flow.


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## Jackfre

*On second thought*

you could get a piece of 1/4" straight tubing for a sensing tube, rubber hose and a piece of clear tubing. it won't be calibrated but you can compare readings.


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## mdntrdr

Any updates on this? :smile:


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## rrbrown

mdntrdr said:


> Any updates on this? :smile:


No sorry I had a few unexcpected things to knock out for my wife. Computer, Internet, TiVo and dishwasher all giving problems. Gremlins I bet. 

I'm waiting on a few more things but I plan on testing what I have next week. Then starting with the changes.


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## BWSmith

By all means,test...test and more tests.And let us know anything you figure out.

But(had to be one,haha)be prepared for inconclusive testing results with simple gauges.......homeboy or storebought.In certain areas,and have a sneakin suspicion DC flow being one of them,that the complexity of design/end use dosen't register with limited testing equip.When you look at the expenditure,9 figure's would be my guess........most highend co's(Onieda)simply opt for computer modeling,time tested experience and dirt simple......."uh,that didn't work,wanna try this" experimentation.

When you consider the vast array of parameters that goes into even a simple setup.......it makes testing somewhat "iffy".Compared to say a us building a race header for a sportbike or drag car.There the parameters are pretty much set in stone.Engine works at this rpm for this amt of time,this cam on this track.There aren't two DC systems on this site even remotely the same........

But,I'd still ram a probe up it....well,if I wasn't so lazy,haha.RR,just try to think of a testing solution thats very simple.And it very well may be the vacumn gauges mentioned earlier.I'm just spitballin.BW


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## woodnthings

*Just thinkin' ...*

How about a DC motor with a squirrel cage fan attached in the airstream with a way to measure current/voltage generated based on RPM of the motor. Might need to "brake" it to prevent overspeed...It would only be a reference no used at various points within a system rather than a universal application. Kinda like a water wheel, only with air flow.

Another idea would be a deflection strip in an end cap to see various vacuum/suction amounts visually, kinda like a strain gage. A wooden or metal reed fixed at one edge would deflect "x" amount at point A or "y" amount at point B to measure loss within the system. Too simple?

Another idea I've seen is the number of weights/balls lifted vertically in a tube by the suction...I donno? 
:blink: bill


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## Adillo303

This could work.

http://www.generaltools.com/Products/Digital-One-Piece-Airflow-Meter-with-CFM-Display__DCFM8906.aspx

Amazon has it for less

Amazon.com: General Tools DCFM8906 Digital Air Flow Meter with CFM Display: Home Improvement

Test equipment depot is cheapest.

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/general/industrial-airflow/dcfm8906.htm#00032171?ref=gbase

If too spendy, maybe a few chip in and pass it around?

Hope this helps

Andy


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## rrbrown

Adillo303 said:


> This could work.
> 
> http://www.generaltools.com/Products/Digital-One-Piece-Airflow-Meter-with-CFM-Display__DCFM8906.aspx
> 
> Amazon has it for less
> 
> Amazon.com: General Tools DCFM8906 Digital Air Flow Meter with CFM Display: Home Improvement
> 
> Test equipment depot is cheapest.
> 
> http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/general/industrial-airflow/dcfm8906.htm#00032171?ref=gbase
> 
> If too spendy, maybe a few chip in and pass it around?
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Andy


Thanks, It is a little pricey. It would probably work great also but unless i can find one to use,rent I'm not spending that much on it.

I'm thinking about the vacuum gauge mounted in a end cap as suggested and or any other devices that can be bought, built, rented or borrowed.

The one thing I did notice is the suction drops drastically just a few inches from the duct. I would like to greater suction further away thus sucking more dust that normally would escape. Testing that may be as easy as seeing how far away you can be before things get sucked in. I was thinking of using a ping pong ball connected yo some light fishing line. I'm also trying to design a dial indicator that can be hooked to a ping pong or other light but larger ball to record the suction that way. However any pre made testing equipment under say $50 or maybe $75 would be better.


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## rrbrown

*See now we're getting ideas*



woodnthings said:


> How about a DC motor with a squirrel cage fan attached in the airstream with a way to measure current/voltage generated based on RPM of the motor. Might need to "brake" it to prevent overspeed...It would only be a reference no used at various points within a system rather than a universal application. Kinda like a water wheel, only with air flow.
> 
> Another idea would be a deflection strip in an end cap to see various vacuum/suction amounts visually, kinda like a strain gage. A wooden or metal reed fixed at one edge would deflect "x" amount at point A or "y" amount at point B to measure loss within the system. Too simple?
> 
> Another idea I've seen is the number of weights/balls lifted vertically in a tube by the suction...I donno?
> :blink: bill


Thanks Bill I think your second two ideas are more on the line of my ping pong test. i was thinking about attaching it to a small fish scale to see the lbs of pull on the ping pong or other larger light weight ball placed right in the opening of the duct. 

I still would like to get and test how far away dust, chips and shavings get sucked up into the system. Things like the lathe and drill press could benefit from improvements like that.


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## woodnthings

*Hmmmm*

You're gonna need a larger hose for those...:laughing:
Quote:
I still would like to get and test how far away things get sucked up into the system. Things like the lathe and drill press could benefit from improvements like that.


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## rrbrown

woodnthings said:


> You're gonna need a larger hose for those...:laughing:
> Quote:
> I still would like to get and test how far away things get sucked up into the system. Things like the lathe and drill press could benefit from improvements like that.


Ok you got me on that one but you know what I meant. :laughing: Now I had to fix it. 

Thanks Bill.:laughing:


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## rrbrown

Ok I wasn't spending hundreds of dollars on test equipment so I made do.

I attached a fishing pole tip to a small piece of plywood. I then attached a ping pong ball to the tip. I have the pole slanted out so it is in the middle of the dust port. I marked the reference point for zero with a thin piece of wood taped to the pole and drew a line for zero. 

I started the dust collector and aligned the rig I made so the ball was just inside the port. I marked the point where the pointer was with my pen. This was my starting setup 4" pipe, aprox 30' away with (2) 90 degree elbows and a tee in the path from the chip collector with the stock 30 micron bags on the DC. I also used the Wind Wizard wind speed gauge to record the speed of air getting sucked into the pipe. This was more difficult then I expected because once you move away from the dust port it pulls air from all directions. (You lose the path of air flow) For this reason I made my recordings at 3" from the dust port and the wind gauge is aprox another 3" so the airflow started at 6" away.



Starting set up recorded 7 MPH wind speed and the pointer moved 3/4" at the tip where the ball was attached.

I replaced the stock bags with the Wynn canister filter and a clear plastic bottom bag.

wind speed now recorded as 11 MPH and the pointer moved 1 1/4" at the tip where the ball was attached.

Both test show a little better than 50% increase in suction at the dust port.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone and I know the test are not the best, but they did work.

Next up is changing the chip collector to more of a cyclone separator using this setup.

Any comments are welcomed.


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## BWSmith

Cool.........Iffin you want to try sumthing.

On the end of a pc of flex hose connected to a 4" "drop"....basically what would be appropriate for this or that pc of equip.....Try a cpl different shaped "pickup's".IOWs take a square'ish cardboard bx and cut a 4" hole in the bttm.Lay the bx down on bench,so that hose is coming in from one side and see how that affects the air getting drawn in from where machine would be.

Then compare different sized boxes......then change where the hole got cut in(move it closer to bttm).Realizing that if we're making a pickup bx that errant chips,gravity to bttm of this enclosure.

Then make a new bx(ply,cardboard,whatever)with sloped "walls",a sqaure'ish transition.Or simply hot glue test pcs inside above,sq bx.Basically trying to kill off any "stalled" areas/corners.

Then do a true sq to round transition.There are some real cheap HVAC right angle "boots" at sLowes that can be had for testing.BW


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## rrbrown

I made a few changes to my DC system. One was to switch to 6" pipe everywhere except at the machine. I have no more then a 48 inch run of 4" pipe.

I mounted my DC motor and impeller on the wall and I'm adding a larger can with a Thein Separator.

Preliminary test show another 50% increase in suction and velocity.
That would be a little more then a 100% increase of my DC system from where it started. I still have to finish the Thein separator but I expect the results to stay close to the same. Picture and more info coming soon.


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## rrbrown

Here are a few pictures of the new setup. Less 90 degree turns (actually only 1 per run) I also have 6" pipe instead of 4" as discussed above. I still need to finish the Thien separator but as you can see I mounted the unit on the wall. This gives me more room and a straight run from the separator to the impeller. I had to mount the bag and filter assembly on a ledge/table to allow for a straight run from impeller to filter.

I don't have allot of pictures of the pipe before but some or here in my album. It ran in the corner where the ceiling and wall meet and ran around the shop.


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> Here are a few pictures of the new setup. Less 90 degree turns (actually only 1 per run) I also have 6" pipe instead of 4" as discussed above. I still need to finish the Thien separator but as you can see I mounted the unit on the wall. This gives me more room and a straight run from the separator to the impeller. I had to mount the bag and filter assembly on a ledge/table to allow for a straight run from impeller to filter.


Hey, I've been in that shop!!!

Looks great!

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## rrbrown

Finally finished my Thien baffle separator. It was harder then expected because of the 6" pipe and the way the top tapers in, but it's done. A few more connections, empty the bottom bag on the DC so I can tell if any debris get in it.

I'm thinking of either putting a bead of silicone just before the WYE bottoms out to work as a seal so i can just slip it on and off like a quick connection or coating the male part of the fitting for the same reason. 

I'm also looking to add a sight glass below the baffle to tell when it needs emptying. I would cut a round hole in the plastic barrel and silicone and screw a lexan plate over both the inside and outside of the hole.


Any thoughts or comments?

Oh no more testing except maybe wind velocity because my fishing pole tester broke. The new system did improve by another 50% as I said in a earlier post.


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> Finally finished my Thien baffle separator. It was harder then expected because of the 6" pipe and the way the top tapers in, but it's done. A few more connections, empty the bottom bag on the DC so I can tell if any debris get in it.
> 
> I'm thinking of either putting a bead of silicone just before the WYE bottoms out to work as a seal so i can just slip it on and off like a quick connection or coating the male part of the fitting for the same reason.
> 
> I'm also looking to add a sight glass below the baffle to tell when it needs emptying. I would cut a round hole in the plastic barrel and silicone and screw a lexan plate over both the inside and outside of the hole.
> 
> Any thoughts or comments?
> 
> Oh no more testing except maybe wind velocity because my fishing pole tester broke. The new system did improve by another 50% as I said in a earlier post.


Nice job! That's not how I had envisioned the baffle looking... I thong the wedge was shorter than that. What was the decision / design behind that?... before I get started on mine!

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## ChiknNutz

firemedic said:


> ... I *thong* the wedge was shorter than that. What was the decision / design behind that?... before I get started on mine...


Watch your spell check :laughing:


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## rrbrown

firemedic said:


> Nice job! That's not how I had envisioned the baffle looking... I thong the wedge was shorter than that. What was the decision / design behind that?... before I get started on mine!
> 
> ~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


Tom are you talking about the distance from lid to baffle or how long the slot is for the dust to fall through? I would call the non cut out part an ear or lip. Your terminology is different then mine evidently and your misspellings makes it more confusing.

I know I have no room to talk. I had typo's even before I lost my finger. :laughing:


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> Tom are you talking about the distance from lid to baffle or how long the slot is for the dust to fall through? I would call the non cut out part an ear or lip. Your terminology is different then mine evidently and your misspellings makes it more confusing.
> 
> I know I have no room to talk. I had typo's even before I lost my finger. :laughing:


Sry, I'm talking about the cut-out part... The area where dust drops down... I thought that was generally 1/3-1/2 around... 

Asking cause you know I'm about to add it to mine

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## firemedic

ChiknNutz said:


> Watch your spell check :laughing:


:smile:

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## rrbrown

Its generally 120 degrees or 1/3 as you said. I actually started off with that but so much went under and behind the inlet that I cut a little extra off it's just a little less then a third I think.

1t's 1/4 just a tad over. I just tested it with a big pile of stuff out the shop vac here are the pictures. the bag was emptied and after that big pile of junk I have a small hand full of just powder in the bag. I know some of it came off of the bag also. That's a gallon can in the picture to reference the pile size. It had screws which you could hear moving thru the pipe, sand paper\, wood chunks and even a pen tube everything went into the can. I did notice there is no noise of stuff spinning in the lower can like before the baffle.

I still need to add a sight glass for below baffle and one on top for the baffle. Other then that i think if I cut the center tube up higher i might get less powder. What do you think?


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> Its generally 120 degrees or 1/3 as you said. I actually started off with that but so much went under and behind the inlet that I cut a little extra off it's just a little less then a third I think.


Gotcha. Is it maybe that it needs to be a bit wider due to the wide pipe?

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## rrbrown

The only reason I see for the shelf on the baffle is to keep the air spinning above the baffle. If it wasn't there air could in theory spin beneath the baffle. However it keeps the air above as it comes in and starts the cyclonic action, the debris hits the sides an falls in the bottom.

Just my opinion.


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> The only reason I see for the shelf on the baffle is to keep the air spinning above the baffle. If it wasn't there air could in theory spin beneath the baffle. However it keeps the air above as it comes in and starts the cyclonic action, the debris hits the sides an falls in the bottom.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Ok. I'm going to build mine soon... And of course I'm going to add a lexan window :yes:

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## rrbrown

I'm adding a window also and like I said one below the baffle. I'm also going to put and led light in the can and baffle just for when I want to really see what is going on in there. I will run the power though the all thread.

I know just where they have some lexan. :laughing:


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> I know just where they have some lexan. :laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:...

...I know where there's a sweet azz Sawstop!:yes:

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## woodnthings

*some ideas here....*

This is an older thread, but there's some interesting ideas here. Making your own CFM tester is one. Remounting the dust collector on the wall is another. Check it out.

The CFM tester doesn't have to read in "actual" numbers, just be a relative comparison for each improvement so you will know if you made things better or worse. I have some ideas along those lines and intend to make my own version. I'll post it here when I get to it. :smile3:


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