# Rail and stile gaps



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I tried my hand at some cabinet doors and am not sure how to adjust the router to solve my issue. I was able to adjust the tenon to fit nicely into the groove; however there are gaps in the joint. 

It looks like the ogee profiles are mating before the tongue and groove shoulders make contact. 

Any suggestions? I'm completely new to rails and stiles. I am using the MLCS matched bit set for these.


----------



## willbess08 (Jul 5, 2012)

that looks really close for a first try! it took me forever to get mine set up right, might be a dumb question but are u clamping them tightly after assembly? the secret to a tight fit is a good screw clamp, ie jorgenson (sp) or bigfoots from rockler, screw them down tight and let them dry for fifteen or twenty minutes. scrap wood for buffers are good between the door and clamp to prevent dents. hope this helps, even in professional shops wood putty is still used to fill the gap left over on the ends.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The problem is the set isn't properly matched. Either the coping or the sticking needs more steel on it. It is bottoming out of the sticking before the joint closes up. If you can get any deeper cut with the coping you might be able to make it work however it will have an excessive gap at the end of the tenon.


----------



## byrd (Nov 17, 2010)

If you are using a fence on the coping cut, make sure it is set back enough to rub the bearing with your wood. If you are then I think Steve is right about the bits not being matched up.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I'll verify my fence setup, but I used a straightedge to make sure the fence was in line with the bearing. 

I tried to force the pieces with a clamp but couldn't get them any closer.


----------



## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> The problem is the set isn't properly matched. Either the coping or the sticking needs more steel on it. It is bottoming out of the sticking before the joint closes up. If you can get any deeper cut with the coping you might be able to make it work however it will have an excessive gap at the end of the tenon.



This is what I was thinking. Look at the bottom picture. The rounded profile in the lower piece of wood, inside the slot, is stopping the top piece from sliding in the rest of the way. If it was me, I'd probably send the set back as being defective, because I don't think you'll ever get a perfect joint out of this set. You could check to see if that's the only place you have a problem by shaving off some of the mating convex curve with a rabbet plane, but you're not going to want to do that on every piece you ever cut, so I don't really see it as a long term solution.


----------



## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

It looks as though the height settings of the two profiles are slightly different. This shouldn't cause a gap, but you never know. Before sending the bits back as faulty, I'd triple check that they are set perfectly for height and depth, that your fence is set perfectly, and that the tenon (on your cope cut) is making 100% contact with the rub bearing in between the cutters on the rail coping bit. 

If you can verify all that, and it still doesn't fit, send em back. They should fit perfectly. No clamps, no filler, perfectly. I only clamp my doors ever so lightly to snug & hold them together while the glue dries. Too much pressure absolutely will bow the doors. 

Ive never used MLCS bits. I have 2 sets (different profiles) by Freud and never had an issue once set up properly. Let us know what you come up with.

Brian


----------



## calwilliams63 (Dec 17, 2008)

I would have to say it looks like the bit grinds aren't matched very well. I'm not familiar with that brand. I have a couple Freud cutters and have never had an issue and they fit like a glove without forcing them with clamps.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

I've got that set and haven't had an issue. If you happened to pick up their setup block for that set, you could check that they match. :smile:


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

I have there bits and while it is possible that they don't match I doubt that is it. It looks as if the height is slightly off. 

I would also like to know if that is one pass on the router? I have seen on single pass joints that you don't get a good clean cut. That is usually due to it bouncing a little especially with woods like oak. Which is hat it looks like you have there.

To instantly lame a tool or bit is strange. Just like with accidents it's rarely the tool or bits fault but rather user error. 

Check the alignment and make a double pass I bet you can get it to fit perfectly.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughts. I did only make a single pass on some extra wood milled to the same dimensions as my stock. I wanted to verify that I could make the joint before running my door pieces through. I'll try making two passes on my oak stock to see if I can clean the joint up before deciding to send the bits back.


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I had an issue with their mission style bit set, I tried everything to remedy and never was able to. My doors luckily got a nice problem masking coat o white paint, so it wasn't a huge issue, but next time ill buy a better bit set.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

The height can be part of the problem also. Trial and error is the only way to get it right other then the set up blocks. So have a bunch of scraps available.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

The thing with matched sets is needing to swap the bits and getting everything (bit height and fence position) returned to EXACTLY the same setting. I use a rubber grommet in the bottom of the collet so both bits have a common point of reference vertically (do not touch the height adjustments on the router when changing the bits) and use stop blocks on the fence so I can return it to exactly the same spot. :smile:


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Take 2. 

I removed a shim from the stile bit thinking that if I could shift the ogee profile a bit it may work. I got a tighter fit, but there is still a gap where the ogee profiles don't quite match up. 

It still looks to me that if the ogee profiles march up, I will get gaps in the visible part of the joint. 

I took several passes this time.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

The two pieces of wood look as though they are different thicknesses. It also looks like one was routed on a slight tilt. Maybe they don't match as stated but that would be rare. You should not have had to take the shim out if those are matching bits as in two of them. I have a set of reversible bits which is a real PITA.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks rrbrown. I finally found the setup block I have been searching for and adjusted the bits to match the block. They matched pretty close, but not quite. I tried another pass anyway and ended up with the ogee profiles in complete surface contact, but it still left gaps. I think its time to send it back.


----------



## afx (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree with rr brown, you need to make sure that both pieces of wood are exactly the same thickness and perfectly flat and especially square.


----------



## mncamperguy (Jan 30, 2013)

It seems to me regardless of stock thickness the profiles should still fit fully together. To me thickness would only affect how the faces line up i.e a ridge or lip where the two pieces come together.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

mncamperguy said:


> It seems to me regardless of stock thickness the profiles should still fit fully together. To me thickness would only affect how the faces line up i.e a ridge or lip where the two pieces come together.
> 
> Am I missing something?


 You are correct. The stile and rail set would determine the joint. The only question was if the rail was ran all the way against the bearing and it was. With that set you could make the stiles out of 3/4" wood and the rails out of 1 1/2" thick wood and it should go together. I have a coping and sticking set for a shaper that I ground myself years ago and after running hundreds of doors it has enough metal worn off of it it's getting in the condition the OP's set is. They just ground too much metal off one of the knives when they made the set.


----------



## afx (Feb 5, 2010)

Maybe thickness was bad to include in the list but everything else applies. It looks like the wood is skewed which is cutting less material out of the bottom VS the top and vice versa depending on which way he cuts it.

I was using thickness as an indicator of a good piece of wood.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

The board on the bottom needs to have a deeper cut. This opens the cope and allows the top board to move into place. That's why it looks cocked. 

Is this a router bit or shaper? My cutters require shimming between the cutters. If its a router depth is your problem.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I am using a router. When you say that depth is my problem, are you referring to the fact that the cutters do not extend radially beyond the guide bushing far enough? That seems to be my problem, the protrusions are too short to fill the grooves. The ogee profiles are contacting each other and preventing the joint from closing up. 

I'm not sure how adding shims anywhere could solve this dilemma. I did add a shim to adjust the thickness if the tenon, but it didn't change the gaps along the joint. 

I'm also thinking that if the board wasn't exactly square, then one edge of the joint, either top bottom left or right, should close up. However, I have a pretty uniform gap throughout the joint.


----------



## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

If your coping cut is bottomed out, try making your stile cut a little more shallow. That may do the trick. Small adjustment to the fence should be enough.

Brian


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

In the first set of pictures, I would guess that chips or a rough cut are preventing closure.

You shouldn't expect the tenon to fully seat into the mortise but the Ogee faces should close up and the back of the mortise and tenon should close up.

I don't think that the parts of the bits need adjusting as in the first set of pictures the Ogee and M&T matched up nicely.

If the thickness of the pieces are not the same, you set up will be H***. The issue is that one bit references the outside of the frame while the other bit references the inside of the frame. The zero point reference is the router table.

Usually I do the ends of the rails first. Then using a test piece set the height for the stiles. The trick of set up is look at how the stile fits and decide which way the WOOD has to move to fit perfectly. Then move the router bit in the opposite direction. Usually I look at the part of the Ogee cut that is flat or a little step. I measure how far off that little step is relative to the rail. Measure it with a 64th reading ruler and then adjust the bit height.

Finally, the type of bit set that you are using requires that the bearing be used to control the depth of cut. A zero clearance fence doesn't hurt and set the fence about half of a 64th back so that you are guaranteed that the bearing controls the depth of the cut.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

BZawat said:


> If your coping cut is bottomed out, try making your stile cut a little more shallow. That may do the trick. Small adjustment to the fence should be enough.
> 
> Brian


Brian, I think your suggestion should work well. If I use the fence to make the rail cut shallower, then it should close everything up. However, is that to be expected with a matched bit set? It seems that using the fence to control depth obviates the guide bearing.

Jeremy


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I meant cut the stile shallower. I'm still learning the nomenclature.


----------



## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Masterjer said:


> Brian, I think your suggestion should work well. If I use the fence to make the rail cut shallower, then it should close everything up. However, is that to be expected with a matched bit set? It seems that using the fence to control depth obviates the guide bearing.
> 
> Jeremy


Indeed it does. But in a small town such as this, with no sheriff and only one stop light, these things will happen.

Brian


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I wanted to close this thread out. I sent the set back to MLCS at their suggestion. They informed me there was a problem with the fit of the matching bits and they have sent out a new set that they checked out first. 

Thanks for all your help. I was worried that I was missing the obvious since I've never done rail and stile construction before. 

Jeremy


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

There you have it. I like there customer service and there bits you just got a rare bad one. It happens to all companies at some point.

Thanks for the update


----------



## Rob Schramm (Jul 12, 2010)

I see the problem from the first picture, your wood is at 2 different thicknesses. Do you own a planer? If you are buying your wood from a home center the wood is rarely the same thickness from board to board. It may only be off 1/64th of an inch but when making doors thickness is very important as are test cuts and micro adjustments. If you fail to plane your wood to the same thickness you will always fight with making cabinetry. I am not saying it cannot be done but there will always be a struggle and or a TON of sanding. If you do not have a planer see if you have a friend with one or go to Home Depot and rent one to get all the wood for your project to the same thickness. I know that not everyone can afford a planer so sometimes renting is the only option.
A couple of other things that I noticed looking at the pictures, you may want to go a little deeper and run the router at a little higher then mid range and go a little slower. If you get burning speed up the router but keep the slower push through. I do not know what router you have but 2hp adjustable should do it. I use a triton 3.25hp router and keep it at about 5 in speed for the cut and push through moderatly, but mine are not always tight right off the bat, that is the fun of woodworking and the more you do it the better you will be. 

Just a note, for a first attempt that is damn good.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Schramm said:


> I see the problem from the first picture, your wood is at 2 different thicknesses. Do you own a planer? If you are buying your wood from a home center the wood is rarely the same thickness from board to board. It may only be off 1/64th of an inch but when making doors thickness is very important as are test cuts and micro adjustments. If you fail to plane your wood to the same thickness you will always fight with making cabinetry. I am not saying it cannot be done but there will always be a struggle and or a TON of sanding. If you do not have a planer see if you have a friend with one or go to Home Depot and rent one to get all the wood for your project to the same thickness. I know that not everyone can afford a planer so sometimes renting is the only option.
> A couple of other things that I noticed looking at the pictures, you may want to go a little deeper and run the router at a little higher then mid range and go a little slower. If you get burning speed up the router but keep the slower push through. I do not know what router you have but 2hp adjustable should do it. I use a triton 3.25hp router and keep it at about 5 in speed for the cut and push through moderatly, but mine are not always tight right off the bat, that is the fun of woodworking and the more you do it the better you will be.
> 
> Just a note, for a first attempt that is damn good.


I'm guessing you didn't read all the way through the thread. If you had read the last two post before yours you may have caught it. However the problem here is you missed that part where he sent the bits back and they were replaced because of confirmed alignment problems.

No big deal really. It happens to everyone at some point.:laughing:


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Update. I got the new bits from MLCS and made my first joint (don't read too much into that statement, even though it is now legal where I live in Washington). This is how I expected it to look from the beginning. 

Quick question, when you guys make doors, are the ends of the joints at the top and bottom of the door perfectly flush, or if nor, do you sand or run the end across the table saw to straighten the end?


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Try to get the as even as possible. If not it can make a door un square depending on how large a door and how uneven. It also looks like crap if its not even.


----------



## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

+1 It's also important - for the same reason - to get your stile & rail pairs exactly the same length, or as close to exact as possible. This way if you are careful to flush everything out when you glue up, you know you've got a square door. 

If cutting your stock on a miter saw, set up a stop block so there's no measuring, just bump your stock to the stop block and cut. Or you could use a crosscut sled on the TS and employ the same principle indexing either the saw's rip fence or an added stop block

If I'm doing a kitchen I'll cut all the stiles for the uppers at the same time to ensure they are all identical in length. Then I move the stop block and cut all the lowers, then the fridge & micro cab, etc then repeat the process for the rails.


----------



## bladeburner (Jun 8, 2013)

I leave my stiles a little long (`1 inch each end). After the clue dries, I trim the rails (and of course the stile ends) to get the final door size.


----------



## against_the_grain (Aug 15, 2010)

Very informative thread. :thumbsup:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bladeburner said:


> I leave my stiles a little long (`1 inch each end). After the clue dries, I trim the rails (and of course the stile ends) to get the final door size.


I like this idea. It's always such a pisser getting the correct size door after routing. This way you can just glue them to the correct size, at least in one direction.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I assembly the rails flush with the bottom of the stile however I make my doors 1/8" wider and 1/8" longer than the finished size. Then I mill all four sides of the door with a routed edge that takes a 1/16" off per pass bringing it to the finished size.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

If you cut them all at one time the same length they will be the same size. I actually cut one or two extra just in case when routing I get a bad cut or tear out. Plan for the worse hope for the best.:thumbsup:


----------

