# Sawstop safety



## b0y9ggz

As I begin my search for my first table saw (I've been using a Shopsmith for almost 30 years) I see all the ads for the Sawstop and its safety. I've watched hot dogs being eased into the spinning blade to show the blade stopping, and even the video of the creator moving his finger into the blade all without a scratch. But what happens on this saw if my hand gets yanked into the blade? I find it hard to believe that if I drop a hot dog on the spinning blade it it wouldn't get nicked. Or if my hand gets pulled in when my push pad fails. Does anybody have an idea what might happen in an accident situation versus a very slow purposeful feed into the blade? I'm not trying to disparage the SS, just trying to truly understand its true safety in all situations. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## cabinetman

Biggrbird2013 said:


> As I begin my search for my first table saw (I've been using a Shopsmith for almost 30 years) I see all the ads for the Sawstop and its safety. I've watched hot dogs being eased into the spinning blade to show the blade stopping, and even the video of the creator moving his finger into the blade all without a scratch. But what happens on this saw if my hand gets yanked into the blade? I find it hard to believe that if I drop a hot dog on the spinning blade it it wouldn't get nicked. Or if my hand gets pulled in when my push pad fails. Does anybody have an idea what might happen in an accident situation versus a very slow purposeful feed into the blade? I'm not trying to disparage the SS, just trying to truly understand its true safety in all situations. Thanks for your thoughts.


I wouldn't want to try it.











 







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## ryan50hrl

There are more testimonials of people avoiding injury on sawstops than you could ever read all over the web. 

The saw reacts so quickly that it isn't going to be able to "grab" your hand. I don't believe I've ever come across a negative review of the sawstop technology by anyone who actually uses them. The only negative reviews I've ever seen are by people who either complain about sawstops attempts to get the industry to adopt its technology or new equipment haters that don't like anything made overseas.


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## ryan50hrl

cabinetman said:


> I wouldn't want to try it. .


Well no one wants to try it....but if a push pad is going to fail....would you rather be using a sawstop...or any other saw?


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## rrbrown

I pushed a hot dog into my blade as fast as possible. I had a 24T rip blade on it and the hotdog skin dented it did mot even rip the skin. 👍


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## dustmagnet

My question is, if you have all the necessary guards in place, ANY table saw is as safe as the next one. If a sharp spinny thing scares the crap out of you, there are two choices, Sawstop or find a new hobby.

I myself have wondered if the system works as the OP mentions. Somebody give it a try or call Mythbusters...........


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## Miller Woodworks

I've seen videos of sawstop saws being purposefully tripped. The blade does seem to withdraw faster than you would fall onto the blade if you were falling and landed on the saw. In the event of a kickback where your hand is thrown into the blade, I'm not convinced you wouldn't be uninjured, but I'm pretty sure the injury would be far less severe with a sawstop than with a non-sawstop table saw. I'll take a 1/4" deep cut and some stitches over a missing digit or two any day.

That being said, I'm one of those guys who doesn't like Sawstop because of its business practices and ethics more than anything else.


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## ryan50hrl

I would agree that with the guards in place, almost any saw is as safe as any other....

But if a finger slips.....you accidentally don't realize your finger is there....ect....only a sawstop offers a last line of defense. 

And believe it or not....there are guys on this board missing digits that had guards on saws.


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## cabinetman

rrbrown said:


> I pushed a hot dog into my blade as fast as possible. I had a 24T rip blade on it and the hotdog skin dented it did mot even rip the skin. 👍



If it was Hebrew National...it's understandable. :laughing:








 







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## cabinetman

ryan50hrl said:


> And believe it or not....there are guys on this board missing digits that had guards on saws.


I must have missed those disclosures. Every time there was a discussion, I made a point of questioning the statistics of losses with the guard off. I don't remember responses affirming losses with the guard on. Like I said...maybe I just missed it.








 







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## ryan50hrl

I know I've seen at least one person say their accident happened with a guard.....if I recall they lost just the tip. 

Are you asserting that saw accidents don't happen with guards installed?


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## cabinetman

ryan50hrl said:


> I know I've seen at least one person say their accident happened with a guard.....if I recall they lost just the tip.
> 
> Are you asserting that saw accidents don't happen with guards installed?


I'm not asserting anything.








 







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## ryan50hrl

Fair enough. I didn't think that would be your stand on saw safety.


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## ctwiggs1

The only drawback to me is price. I can get the Grizzly hybrid for $725 but the equivalent Saw Stop will cost me twice that for the contractor saw.


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## ryan50hrl

ctwiggs1 said:


> The only drawback to me is price. I can get the Grizzly hybrid for $725 but the equivalent Saw Stop will cost me twice that for the contractor saw.


I don't disagree.....but I'd ask you this....what's your out of pocket max on your health insurance? If you ever have a table saw accident, you'll likely hit your out of pocket max within the first hour at the ER.....I'm guessing it's cheaper to buy the sawstop!!!

Also....to be fair....look under the table, the sawstop is built like a tank compared to the grizzly.


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## ctwiggs1

I have not really looked at a sawstop up close.

And don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of what they're doing. I don't do this professionally though so it's hard to tell my wife that I need a $2000 saw that I'll only flip on a couple times a month. If I had my own shop and was doing this professionally, I'd likely have a saw stop.

Curtis


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## Oakwerks

Miller Woodworks said:


> I've seen videos of sawstop saws being purposefully tripped. The blade does seem to withdraw faster than you would fall onto the blade if you were falling and landed on the saw. In the event of a kickback where your hand is thrown into the blade, I'm not convinced you wouldn't be uninjured, but I'm pretty sure the injury would be far less severe with a sawstop than with a non-sawstop table saw. I'll take a 1/4" deep cut and some stitches over a missing digit or two any day. That being said, I'm one of those guys who doesn't like Sawstop because of its business practices and ethics more than anything else.


I, too, am interested in a Sawstop.... Could you explain their bad business practices and ethics ??

Sent to y'all offen' a iPad thing......


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## ryan50hrl

They tried licensing their technology to the other saw manufacturers out there, no one was interested so they tried petitioning the government to make this type of technology mandatory. Many of the anti-government guys take this as an insult to the capitalistic system. 

I for one think it's no different than airbags, seat belts, or helmet laws. 

If you want a good laugh...go check out the Stephen Colbert piece on sawstop on you tube.


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## rrbrown

Oakwerks said:


> I, too, am interested in a Sawstop.... Could you explain their bad business practices and ethics ??
> 
> Sent to y'all offen' a iPad thing......


See that's a personal opinion.

He invented the technology and offered it to all manufacturer's but they turned him down thinking that collectively they stopped his idea. They claim it would raise the prices of a saw to much and price them out. In reality it would do that on your cheaper saws because his offer was based on all saws having the technology at an added cost of $150 per saw for retooling the manufacturing process and a 7% royalty on the wholesale cost of all saws made. This in my opinion is a fair offer. However critics pointed out immediately that the cheaper saws ($!50-$300) would be priced out of the market. There is doubt about if that level of saw could even be made with the technology. IDK but after they dismissed his idea he made his own SawStop brand and has been pushing to make it mandatory on all saws through government regulation.

As for there Quality and Customer service they are great. Most people that have a problem its with the forcing it on all saws issues. I can understand there point to a degree. The thing I can not understand is how one man with an idea became the bad guy and all the saw manufacturers are the victims. (The little guy is usually not the bad guy) They may have had legit reasons for turning his technology down or just like with Auto manufacturers they reject other things like hydrogen and or electric cars for decades because they did not want to change. With 37000 Saw accidents a year I think they would have tried to get something from the technology. They had decades to make saws safer but never did until forced by regulation. Riving knives and better guards that were not a PITA to remove when needed on certain cuts only came about with regulation or threat of regulation. 

Those same critics get mad about him having all the patents for this type of technology locked up. He was by trade a Patent Attorney who wrote a unbreakable patent for his client which just happens to be himself in this case. These critics or upset about his patents but if it was there patent, I'm sure they would expect nothing but the same protection from there patent.

Make your own decision, My story was I didn't get it because I was confident that with my experience I would never need the technology. Saw cost $3000 I used half of that to get other tools and bought a Shop Fox equivalent Cabinet saw as well. However, my Hospital bill was $30k and I have 9 fingers to boot. My gut said by the damn saw because I really liked the quality and technology but I didn't listen.:thumbsup:

I sold my old saw and bought the SawStop afterwards. Just a little to late.


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## Hammer1

The SawStop works on electrical sensing. Your fingers and hot dogs send an immediate electrical conduction and the brake kicks in. A very fast action that touches the blade could result in a nick but that's about it, electricity is faster than you. The early SawStops had issues with green lumber kicking off the brake and metal objects, like foil covered sheet goods can still cause a trip. The main issue with SawStop is that it's a mechanical devise and it can be shut off. Mechanical devises are never 100% dependable. They don't work at all if turned off. If you run dado blades, you need to install a special cartridge. At this time, I'm not aware of a cartridge designed for molding heads. The cartridges are one time use, if they fire off, you need to buy a replacement in the $90 range. There may be damage to the blade that the brake engages. Haven't heard anything about damage to arbor bearings from the abrupt stop but most folks aren't going to be firing off the cartridges very often. All the safety issues regarding saw use still should be followed. The device will not prevent kick backs, debris flying at you or electrical shock.

Mr. Gass invented the braking system and tried to sell it to the saw manufacturers. They were not interested. It wasn't something that could be added to existing designs and would require a complete new design and tooling. He may have wanted too much money for his patent. In industry, OSHA has standards that apply to table saws which include guards, anti-kick back devises and most importantly, proper training of personnel. When he couldn't get the manufacturers to buy his technology, he lobbied to have it become a required standard for saws. He was not successful. Gass decided he would make his own saws. They are a top quality saw and the equal of the offerings of other cabinet saws on the market but they are the only ones with this braking system. Sort of like an air bag in your car. You never want to have to use it, it's expensive if it goes off but you might be real happy it's there if ever needed.

DIYers are on their own, not that some in industry aren't as well. There are a lot of businesses that don't follow OSHA standards, although, they are required by law. If a person is properly trained in saw operation, there should be no reason for their hands to be anywhere near a spinning blade. If guards are in place it would be difficult to contact the blade. If you follow the safety rules, there is no way you would slip or be performing any action that could bring your hands near the blade guard, let alone the blade. The problem is that many people using saws don't know or follow the rules. People don't regularly die from table saw injuries. If they did, things would be different. No safety devise is going to protect you from yourself.

If you want a very nice new saw and don't mind paying extra for the safety brake, the SawStop may be for you. Just because you have air bags in your car doesn't mean you can drive recklessly. Same with the SawStop. You hope the bag goes off if needed or the SawStop brake engages but it's not 100% guaranteed. I think it's a great addition to safety, just the same. Even under the best training, people are going to make mistakes and learning often takes place the hard way. It doesn't matter how many times you tell someone not to touch the burner on the stove, eventually, often accidentally, everyone learns it for themselves. I don't recommend learning the hard way on a saw. The cost can be a lot more than the cost of a SawStop.


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## jharris2

ryan50hrl said:


> ...Many of the anti-government guys take this as an insult to the capitalistic system...


Correction brother Ryan

Many freedom loving Americans see this as another example of big government interference in our lives.

We are perfectly capable of assessing risk and deciding for ourselves what risks we are willing to take.

I'm not knocking anyone who owns or wants one of these machines.

I simply believe in the freedom to make my own choices.


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## ryan50hrl

jharris2 said:


> Correction brother Ryan Many freedom loving Americans see this as another example of big government interference in our lives. We are perfectly capable of assessing risk and deciding for ourselves what risks we are willing to take. I'm not knocking anyone who owns or wants one of these machines. I simply believe in the freedom to make my own choices.


Should we still also allow lead paint and asbestos pipe wrap and allow you the "right to choose"?


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## rrbrown

Hammer1 said:


> The SawStop works on electrical sensing. Your fingers and hot dogs send an immediate electrical conduction and the brake kicks in. A very fast action that touches the blade could result in a nick but that's about it, electricity is faster than you. The early SawStops had issues with green lumber kicking off the brake and metal objects, like foil covered sheet goods can still cause a trip. The main issue with SawStop is that it's a mechanical devise and it can be shut off. Mechanical devises are never 100% dependable. They don't work at all if turned off. If you run dado blades, you need to install a special cartridge. At this time, I'm not aware of a cartridge designed for molding heads. The cartridges are one time use, if they fire off, you need to buy a replacement in the $90 range. There may be damage to the blade that the brake engages. Haven't heard anything about damage to arbor bearings from the abrupt stop but most folks aren't going to be firing off the cartridges very often. All the safety issues regarding saw use still should be followed. The device will not prevent kick backs, debris flying at you or electrical shock.
> 
> Mr. Gass invented the braking system and tried to sell it to the saw manufacturers. They were not interested. It wasn't something that could be added to existing designs and would require a complete new design and tooling. He may have wanted too much money for his patent. In industry, OSHA has standards that apply to table saws which include guards, anti-kick back devises and most importantly, proper training of personnel. When he couldn't get the manufacturers to buy his technology, he lobbied to have it become a required standard for saws. He was not successful. Gass decided he would make his own saws. They are a top quality saw and the equal of the offerings of other cabinet saws on the market but they are the only ones with this braking system. Sort of like an air bag in your car. You never want to have to use it, *it's expensive if it goes off but you might be real happy it's there if ever needed*.
> 
> *DIYers are on their own, not that some in industry aren't as well. There are a lot of businesses that don't follow OSHA standards, although, they are required by law. If a person is properly trained in saw operation, there should be no reason for their hands to be anywhere near a spinning blade. If guards are in place it would be difficult to contact the blade. If you follow the safety rules, there is no way you would slip or be performing any action that could bring your hands near the blade guard, let alone the blade. The problem is that many people using saws don't know or follow the rules. People don't regularly die from table saw injuries. If they did, things would be different. No safety devise is going to protect you from yourself.*
> 
> If you want a very nice new saw and don't mind paying extra for the safety brake, the SawStop may be for you. Just because you have air bags in your car doesn't mean you can drive recklessly. Same with the SawStop. You hope the bag goes off if needed or the SawStop brake engages but it's not 100% guaranteed. I think it's a great addition to safety, just the same. Even under the best training, people are going to make mistakes and learning often takes place the hard way. It doesn't matter how many times you tell someone not to touch the burner on the stove, eventually, often accidentally, everyone learns it for themselves. I don't recommend learning the hard way on a saw. The cost can be a lot more than the cost of a SawStop.



I have a few problems with your explanation. I put the biggest part in bold.

You say it can be expensive if its triggered. Compared to what. If it saves your hand and cost you $100 for a blade and $70 for a new Brake is that expensive compared to say the ER and a hand surgery and surgeon?

As for no accidents happening while using the safe operation procedures your also wrong. Sure most things are because lets say the guard was removed for dado cuts. However you have an old saw that is difficult to switch the guard back and forth and you take a short cut like many do. Because of poor design many users never put the guards on. Sure they have that choice but millions probably do it. Look at any DIY show on TV they never have Guards on. 

You also hear people running a dado blade into there finger because of distraction or complacency either way the guard is designed to be off. 

Hell you could be doing everything to the letter of the safety law so to speak and something like a plane crash close by, someone startle you or a bus fall out of the sky and scare the **** out of you causing an accident. 

Sometimes contrary to popular belief people have accidents because of someone else or for no apparent reason other then the planets and stars were lined up the wrong way. I do however agree that most accidents are because of stupidity or a simple mistake one normally does not do. No one purposely sticks there finger in a spinning blade and SawStop is a second line of defense.


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## Miller Woodworks

Oakwerks said:


> I, too, am interested in a Sawstop.... Could you explain their bad business practices and ethics ??
> 
> Sent to y'all offen' a iPad thing......


If I want to get on a motor cycle and act stupid by driving 150 mph down the road, someone should stop me because it endangers the lives and well-being of others. We have laws that require that you not drive 150 mph down the roads. Though I don't agree with the limits that are set, I do agree that there should be speed limits on public roads. 

If I want to get on that same motor cycle and drive 60 mph down the highway without a helmet on, possibly endangering my own life in the unlikely event that I fall off the bike, then that's my choice. You have no right to protect me from myself. I can do with my body what I want. That's a basic human right as far as I'm concerned. Your body is yours to do with it what you want. I'll stop you from endangering me and mine (by driving 150 mph) and have no objection to you doing the same. You should do that. Protecting me from myself (forcing me to wear a helmet because I might fall) is not anybody's business but mine.

Saw stop brakes are the same thing to me. Like others have said Steve tried to sell his idea to saw companies who rejected it, so he made his own saws. If that was all to the story, I wouldn't have a problem with him. My problem is that he tried to force people to buy his helmet, err brake. That's dishonest and an exceptionally poor thing to do ethically. If your product fails, it failed. Don't try to make it a legal requirement because nobody bought your invention. What he should have done is just make his own line of saws and compete with those who rejected his technology. It's a shame he didn't take that route first. First he tried to weasel his way onto every other saw manufacturer by protecting people from themselves. 

Yes, the brake is cool, and going to save many fingers, but if I want to be stupid and cut off my own finger with my table saw, that's my choice! It's not your place to try and force everyone to buy a saw designed to not let you cut off your own finger. I shouldn't have to buy his brake if I don't want it on my saw. He tried to force me to buy his brake, therefore I don't like him or his company.


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## ryan50hrl

So if you crash your bike....and spend 6 months In the icu....you'll likely rack up millions of dollars of medical bills that you won't be able to ever pay off....and if you have insurance, you'll pass those costs onto thousands of others....so to say its only harming you is inaccurate. 

It will harm your family, and share holders Of your medical providers as well. 



Also to be noted....if you set off your sawstop saw by flesh contact(apparently they can tell flesh from metal), sawstop will replace your brake free of charge.


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## mdntrdr

*Free Popcorn...*

....:smile:


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## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> So if you crash your bike....and spend 6 months In the icu....you'll likely rack up millions of dollars of medical bills that you won't be able to ever pay off....and if you have insurance, you'll pass those costs onto thousands of others....so to say its only harming you is inaccurate.
> 
> It will harm your family, and share holders Of your medical providers as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Also to be noted....if you set off your sawstop saw by flesh contact(apparently they can tell flesh from metal), sawstop will replace your brake free of charge.


It seems clear that you love Sawstop and I do not. I could point out the flaws in your logic, but you wouldn't be convinced, so I'll just offer you some of Mdntrdr's popcorn, and a hug. It's warm always available. Oh, the popcorn is good too.


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## ryan50hrl

It's not about sawstop loving or hating....arguing against a safety feature is ridiculous. I said it earlier....should lead producers be able to offer pipe and let the cuisines decide? How about ford pintos?? Explode at your own risk? somewhere upward of 30,000 table saw accidents happen each year, many with consumers that aren't aware of the hazards like you and I.


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## cabinetman

I'm not going to take any sides here, because...well, just because. I will say, that what SG did was what I would have done. What a clever guy, and a good thinker. He likely spent a bunch of money perfecting his own invention. It's all about making money. If you don't like how he went about it...too bad. The safety end of the saw has some expense, in the initial cost and the brake replacement (if necessary). If you have an "accident", the pounding pain will help you think about the money you saved.


















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## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> It's not about sawstop loving or hating....arguing against a safety feature is ridiculous. I said it earlier....should lead producers be able to offer pipe and let the cuisines decide? How about ford pintos?? Explode at your own risk? somewhere upward of 30,000 table saw accidents happen each year, many with consumers that aren't aware of the hazards like you and I.


Nobody here is arguing against a safety feature. Not backing Steve and his Sawstop because of his ethical decisions isn't the same thing as arguing against a safety feature. That's absurd. Yes, the sawstop brake will save many fingers. Vehicles kill millions of people every year. Making vehicles illegal would save millions of lives every year. I don't see you advocating for getting rid of your vehicle, even though it would make the world safer. Why have you picked Steve and his Sawstop to advocate for under the pursuit of safety when simply making all vehicles illegal would save far more lives and money?

Yes, lead pipe should be offered, and is. Piping metallurgy isn't decided by what's cheap or easy, there actually are reasons for needing lead piping. Same thing with asbestos insulation. It's still around, and is safe to work around despite what you may have been told about it. Ford Pintos? Sure bring back the Pinto. They never randomly exploded and never were "explode at your own risk". You're making mountains our of mole hills in attempt to illustrate your point.


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## TomC

I saw it demonstrated at a woodworking show. He push the hotdog in as fast as he could and it was barely nicked.
Tom


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## mdntrdr

.... :smile:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop


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## rrbrown

Miller Woodworks said:


> Nobody here is arguing against a safety feature. Not backing Steve and his Sawstop because of his ethical decisions isn't the same thing as arguing against a safety feature. That's absurd. Yes, the sawstop brake will save many fingers. Vehicles kill millions of people every year. Making vehicles illegal would save millions of lives every year. I don't see you advocating for getting rid of your vehicle, even though it would make the world safer. Why have you picked Steve and his Sawstop to advocate for under the pursuit of safety when simply making all vehicles illegal would save far more lives and money?
> 
> Yes, lead pipe should be offered, and is. Piping metallurgy isn't decided by what's cheap or easy, there actually are reasons for needing lead piping. Same thing with asbestos insulation. It's still around, and is safe to work around despite what you may have been told about it. Ford Pintos? Sure bring back the Pinto. They never randomly exploded and never were "explode at your own risk". You're making mountains our of mole hills in attempt to illustrate your point.


Actually your argument is what's absurd. No one has said make all saws without the safety feature illegal. See you reword things to make it sound different then what it is. What was proposed was to make all future saws safer just as they do with cars. See how that compares when presented in the right way. 

Now i still ask how one guy becomes the bad guy and all those saw manufacturers become victims. With all the conspiracy theory people here no one thinks the manufacturers tried to block the idea just because they wanted kill the change. Auto manufacturers did and does do it with hydrogen and electric cars because they are in bed with the oil companies. 

12years ago there was a guy who built an electric car built in his garage. It went 300 miles on a charge, did 0-60 in like 3.7 sec and top speed was like 110 mph. He used 50 laptop batteries to power it. Shortly later yiu heard nothing about it. The auto manufactures were at the same time stating a total electric car was years away because of difficulties. 

Big companies are not victims except in this case with Mr Gass. Maybe he finally was able to fight them on a level that he was not able to when they rejected his idea. He's trying for pay backs and is alienating the woodworkers in the process. That was a bad move on his part but I still don't look at the manufacturers has victims. They rather let 37k hand to blade contact accidents continue then to fix something to make it better. 

I repeat they are not innocent victims here. We as woodworkers ate the innocent victims, we are the ones that lose. The lawyers get rich, the companies fight each other all while nothing gets changed or better in anyway, prices stay high and 37k times a year someone is having an accident that stays with them for the rest of there lives. 

So arguing amongst ourselves does nothing at all for either side.


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## Miller Woodworks

We have hydrogen vehicles. They cost more to operate than gasoline vehicles and are worse for the environment when you look at the bigger picture. They run at the equivalence of around $6.00 a gallon, and cost significantly more to purchase. I hear they get the equivalence of about 50 mpg though so fuel cost may be a wash. In fact, the Honda FCX can be leased for 3 years for only $600 a month according to this site. You also have to take into account how you have to get the hydrogen. There's not enough free hydrogen in the atmosphere to fuel the vehicles. We have to split the hydrogen out of water, which requires significantly more energy than you get from combining that hydrogen and oxygen back into water. You have to find the energy to generate the hydrogen from some other source. Hydrogen vehicles aren't the answer. They just make people feel better because someone else is doing the polluting for them. We don't all use them because they're not the wonderful thing they appear to be at first glance and because they're far more expensive and worse for the environment. It's not because car manufacturers are in bed with oil companies or are afraid of change. It's because there's not enough demand for such vehicles due to the high costs. Do you have a hydrogen vehicle? Honda FCX maybe?

Nobody is calling Mr. Gass the bad guy, or all other saw manufacturers victims. I wish him the best of luck with his Sawstop saws. I don't have one, partly because I won't support a man who tried to legislate that his design be mandatory in all saws only after he was rejected by all of the saw manufacturers he contacted with his design. It's nothing but one man with a good idea pitching a childish fit because nobody agreed to play baseball with him. He tried to force everyone to play baseball with him and lost the fight.

You said most people who have a problem with Sawstop have a problem with him trying to legislate that everyone use his product and not with the saws that they make or their customer service. I'm one of those people. I know nothing of the quality of the saws or the customer service. My objection to Sawstop is based purely on his ethical decisions about business practices, i.e. trying to force every saw company to use his product.

I was asked why I don't like Sawstop and answered. You don't have to agree with me.


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## rrbrown

Well Miller Woodworks As I said there was a whole other part of this before he tried to make it mandatory. Personally I believe he was kind of screwed over by the tool companies and treated badly and this is his attempt at getting back at them. That said they read these forums and should know it it back fired if nothing else.

Your right I don't have to agree I just questioned your wording.


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## rrich

If I may, I can explain the reason the technology wasn't adopted by other saw manufacturers.

In Business it is not wise to allow your company to be controlled by another company. If the product that your company makes has a component that is available from a single source, your company is at the mercy of that supplier.

I go into the business of making table saws. As the result of a bankruptcy sale I bought several automated milling machines and some automated casting machines. Because of very little needs for manual operations I can make cabinet table saws that sell to the end user for about $1800. If I add the flesh sensing technology the end user price is $2300. (Don't try to read anything into these numbers, it's just an example.)

You as the end user walk into the woodworking store and see the two saws, one at $2300 and the other at $3000. Same quality, same safety features, same everything, which are you going to buy? 

Fast forward a few months and the supplier of the flesh sensing technology realizes that they are not selling table saws only to discover that my table saw is selling for substantially less than theirs. 

The question is, how long do you think that I will be able to continue buying flesh sensing technology at a price that I could include it my table saws for about $500?

The above explains why table saw manufacturers have refused to adopt the flesh sensing technology used in the Saw Stop.* The Numbers mean nothing as they are only an example to illustrate a point.*

The semiconductor industry had a similar problem. One company would design a chip but nobody would buy it until a second source was available. The semiconductor manufacturers realized that cross licensing was a good thing because they sold more product.


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## rrbrown

Rich only one problem there. Your assuming he built saws at the time he offered the technology. He actually had no intent on being a saw manufaturer he wanted to sell the technologybto every saw company for one avroyalty of the wholesale price of the saws. The $150 dollar amount thrown around was strictly a dustribution of the cost to retool all the plants. 

So they were not buying parts from a competitor.

He only went into the saw manufacturing business after they rejected his offer.


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## b0y9ggz

TomC said:


> I saw it demonstrated at a woodworking show. He push the hotdog in as fast as he could and it was barely nicked.
> Tom


Thank you TomC. That was all I really wanted. I did not intend to start all this other discussion.


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## rrbrown

Biggrbird2013 said:


> Thank you TomC. That was all I really wanted. I did not intend to start all this other discussion.


It's not you it just happens. :laughing:


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## rrich

Richard,
You're absolutely correct but it's still the single source issue. 

The other issue is the Ryobi lawsuit in Boston and I would rather not dredge up that pile of road apples.


----------



## Al B Thayer

I would have a problem with the government mandating any safety equipment on my tools. They never take into account for the unintended consequences that arise after the fact. We suffer the consequences they over look every day. 

Also when we talk of OSHA. We need to keep in mind where they fall in to play. They can't come into my shop and make me put the guard on my table saw. But if on the other hand I had an employee using that saw. OSHH is there to provide a guild line the employer must provide for the employees protection. 

As to comparing lead paint and asbestos to Sawstop. Everyone in general is protected by banning lead paint and asbestos. They are in harms way unknowing if the product was there or not. But the saw user makes the choice when they turn on the saw which is harmless to the general public.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## woodnthings

*here's what I don't get...*



Biggrbird2013 said:


> Thank you TomC. That was all I really wanted. I did not intend to start all this other discussion.


Let Saw Stop and Steve Gass do what ever the market will bear, but without any government mandates. Who Cares? The Federalist's can mandate that all table saws operated on Government property have the Saw Stop technology, but leave the rest of us alone! :yes:

I don't get how a properly tuned saw with the proper safety guards in place can injure the operator. If you can't get your fingers under the guard and into the blade, what's the problem? If you do, then it would be your own fault.

Oh, I know. It's people who don't have the safety guards in place, get injured and either want to sue, can't afford the surgical and hospital bills and place that expense on the rest of us... :thumbdown:
For example the Ryobi table saw lawsuit, which may have started the whole Saw Stop flesh sensing invention thing, I donno?


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## TomC

Maybe it can be mandated under Excitative Order!
Tom


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## mrcanterbury

I hate to even chime in here. I've been shopping for a new saw as I sold my ridgid 4512. I ordered the powermatic pm1000 but after talking at woodcraft I cancelled it. I decided id go with a 220 saw. They gave me the sawstop DVDs and asked me to watch them while I decided. I've watched and read so much now that my heart still wants the powermatic pm2000 but I literally feel scared that if I don't buy the sawstop, I'll chop a finger off. I've been at this for 20 years and also have the no finger within 4" of a blade rule. I use push pads for dados and such. My 220 is being installed soon and I'm still on the fence.


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## ryan50hrl

Here's a thought....if you buy the sawstop and never use it, what have you lost over the powermatic saw. If you do use it....I think you know what you didn't lose.


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## dustmagnet

HOLY COW..... Let's get back to the OP's question, if you fall into the blade from, say from losing your grip on a push block or kickback occurs, WILL IT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mdntrdr

dustmagnet said:


> HOLY COW..... Let's get back to the OP's question, if you fall into the blade from, say from losing your grip on a push block or kickback occurs, WILL IT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yes, I believe it would work for that. But if your so stupid you hit your head on the cast iron, it wont work for that.

You can't fix stupid!!! :bangin:


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## mrcanterbury

In all my video watching, I saw one where a guy swung a sausage at the top of the blade and it did about an 1/8 to 1/4 deep cut. Definitely saved a hand. That's for the OP.


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## garmtn

*Safety*

Doesn't matter what kind of "safety items," your tool has. The biggest, most IMPORTANT tip I can give you've all heard before; "when you are tired, STOP!!" Not worth the risk of injury! About 8 years ago, I was cutting a lot of the same size wood for a project on an ancient table saw, without any of the safety items. Had been @ it a while and had one more piece to cut. (Didn't want to have to set up saw again, so I proceeded to cut the wood.) I was so tired, I wasn't paying attention to my "lead" hand and put the 10" blade through the nail of my middle finger. Darn thing wouldn't stop bleeding, no matter how many bandages I put on it. Thank god my daughter was home and called 911, @ my insistence. Made it as far as my foyer and collapsed! Was only for 1/2 a minute but, glad when First Aid Squad arrived. Lesson learned the hard way!!:thumbsup:


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## ryan50hrl

Couldn't agree more, tired and distracted don't mix in the workshop with power tools.


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## rrbrown

woodnthings said:


> Let Saw Stop and Steve Gass do what ever the market will bear, but without any government mandates. Who Cares? The Federalist's can mandate that all table saws operated on Government property have the Saw Stop technology, but leave the rest of us alone! :yes:
> 
> I don't get how a properly tuned saw with the proper safety guards in place can injure the operator. If you can't get your fingers under the guard and into the blade, what's the problem? If you do, then it would be your own fault.
> 
> Oh, I know. It's people who don't have the safety guards in place, get injured and either want to sue, can't afford the surgical and hospital bills and place that expense on the rest of us... :thumbdown:
> For example the Ryobi table saw lawsuit, which may have started the whole Saw Stop flesh sensing invention thing, I donno?


The lawsuit was like years after the company was started which was years after they rejected the idea.



dustmagnet said:


> HOLY COW..... Let's get back to the OP's question, if you fall into the blade from, say from losing your grip on a push block or kickback occurs, WILL IT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes!!!!! 




garmtn said:


> Doesn't matter what kind of "safety items," your tool has. The biggest, most IMPORTANT tip I can give you've all heard before; "when you are tired, STOP!!" Not worth the risk of injury! About 8 years ago, I was cutting a lot of the same size wood for a project on an ancient table saw, without any of the safety items. Had been @ it a while and had one more piece to cut. (Didn't want to have to set up saw again, so I proceeded to cut the wood.) I was so tired, I wasn't paying attention to my "lead" hand and put the 10" blade through the nail of my middle finger. Darn thing wouldn't stop bleeding, no matter how many bandages I put on it. Thank god my daughter was home and called 911, @ my insistence. Made it as far as my foyer and collapsed! Was only for 1/2 a minute but, glad when First Aid Squad arrived. Lesson learned the hard way!!:thumbsup:


1/2 the accidents are from stupidity of the safety rules, another 1/4 are probably from absolute crazy people not caring and the other 1/4 are probably legitimate accidents. Someone startles or distracts you, unforeseen problems or from repetitive work and or rushing. 

I seriously doubt anyone goes into the shop and says, man I think I will cut my finger off today.


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## Hammer1

Against Ryobi, (One World Technologies). http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/26939/more-details-on-the-carlos-osorio-tablesaw-lawsuit
For Ryobi. http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/w...des-with-ryobi-in-tablesaw-liability-lawsuit/
The liability suits keep coming. http://personalinjurynewswatch.wordpress.com/tag/table-saw-lawsuit/

The first suit is a travesty of justice. Free handing on an unguarded saw, no fence and force being used by the operator. I guess utter stupidity is rewarded in some courts.


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## rrbrown

Wow I did not know all these others were in the news. It should have been expected with the first verdict and personal injury lawyers. 

Right or wrong on the lawsuits it is very similar to tobaco companies. It's more important to fight off the lawsuits then to adopt the technology. They knew the guards were hard to switch out, they knew the prwals were on the splitter which were removed and hardly ever re-installed because of it being a PITA. Yes you need to remove it for really thin cuts and or to use a dado blade. It's in the manual. 

They knew these things and they know the amount of injuries yet for decades they made no safety improvements unless forced to. Riving knives were forced new guards were either forced or an attemp to keep
The SawStop technology ftom being forced. Unfortunately lawsuits will not force them either. They will raise the prices to pay for legal fees and settlements but will make no changes. Look back before this technology there was basically no new safety changes to the saws for decades. Fences were improved but not for safety. 

Think I'm wrong? Look at tobaco companies. They have warning lables forced on them, restrictions and taxes out the ass, lawsuits and settlements yet they keep selling them. Why? Because every American has the god given right to kill themselves by smoking or chewing if they so desire. 

Insurance or regulations are the only things that get change because big companies really don't care.


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## woodnthings

*apples and bananas*

Smoking cigarettes may or may not kill you, but either way it will be a slow painful death.
Not so with a table saw. The injury will be immediate and gruesome. That's the difference. 
Same with lead paint, it will take a while.
Throw automobiles in there, death immediately? possibly, slowly possibly, not at all usually vs the total number of crashes. There are more crashes than fatalities by far. Seat belt and air bags have saved lives and prevented injuries, but the difference is you are on the "public" roads, not in a shop on private property. So the government can get involved "for the public safety".
Individuals still have the right to their own safety ... so far.


Got a Saw Stop? Great! Don't have one? Be extra cautious! No guards on your saw? You are at risk, but you know that, you removed them. Didn't come with one? Get one! That about covers it. Saw Stops are very well designed machines, the safety features not withstanding from what I have seen in person.

Carry on men.....:boat:


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## DitchDoc

Interesting perspectives. I would love to have a SS TS. The price is what keeps me from it. If I won the powerball, I would probably have one the next day. And why not?


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## Al B Thayer

Back when I bought my saw. The guard was risky to use. Had to be lifted by the wood as you push hard at first and then the end was a guess. It didn't last long. Improved versions have come along but I chose to cut without any. I like to see the cut from start to finish. I do so many other cuts that require the guard to be removed.

I have 3 sleds which I feel are the best safety devise to come along in a long time. I also try to cut each time with the same stance and procedure EVERY TIME to insure my fingers are out of harms way. I NEVER use a dull blade and have never had a kick back in all the years I've been cutting wood. That's probably the biggest reason for not having any accidents. I also use a push stick and my saw allows me to hook one or two fingers on the outside of the fence limiting where my push hand can go.

As to the OPs query. Get the Mythbusters on it.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ctwiggs1

garmtn said:


> Doesn't matter what kind of "safety items," your tool has. The biggest, most IMPORTANT tip I can give you've all heard before; "when you are tired, STOP!!" Not worth the risk of injury! About 8 years ago, I was cutting a lot of the same size wood for a project on an ancient table saw, without any of the safety items. Had been @ it a while and had one more piece to cut. (Didn't want to have to set up saw again, so I proceeded to cut the wood.) I was so tired, I wasn't paying attention to my "lead" hand and put the 10" blade through the nail of my middle finger. Darn thing wouldn't stop bleeding, no matter how many bandages I put on it. Thank god my daughter was home and called 911, @ my insistence. Made it as far as my foyer and collapsed! Was only for 1/2 a minute but, glad when First Aid Squad arrived. Lesson learned the hard way!!:thumbsup:


I agree. As soon as I realize it's gotten a bit monotonous, I stop right away. I almost put a brad through my thumb once and that was when I woke up and said "yeah, no."


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## rrbrown

DitchDoc said:


> Interesting perspectives. I would love to have a SS TS. The price is what keeps me from it. If I won the powerball, I would probably have one the next day. And why not?


Well they are same price or cheaper then a Unisaw or Powermatic cabinet saw but yes they are on the top end. 

It is a choice I agree but as I said they will not make that change unless forced to. That could be the market, insurance or government. Just like tobacco when the damage is done people want the insurance or medicare ect to pick up the tab. I don't see them paying cash. What happens to the right to choose in the end.


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## cabinetman

Al B Thayer said:


> I like to see the cut from start to finish.


IMO, that's the wrong place to be looking. The operator should be concentrating on the stock against the fence, not watching the cut.


















.


----------



## Hammer1

dustmagnet said:


> HOLY COW..... Let's get back to the OP's question, if you fall into the blade from, say from losing your grip on a push block or kickback occurs, WILL IT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That's the real question and the essence of the debate. It's the reason the technology has not been adapted or mandated. There is no guarantee the brake will work just like there is no guarantee your car will start today. The odds are it will work and the car will start but there is that off chance, regardless of how remote that chance might be. 

It has nothing to do with the costs manufacturers will incur, nothing to do with paying for patents. Your car may not start due to a loose battery connection, the saw brake may not work for some similar basic reason. The market place will determine if the public wants the technology. We have better saws, better fences, better guards, the choice of right or left tilt, the addition of riving knives and better dust collection due to market place demands, not because of a mandate. I'm sure it cost Delta plenty to offer a left tilt saw, it's not about the money or changes to design and production or even the outcome of lawsuits.


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## TimPa

every time we put our carpenter hat on and start the table saw, there is a chance of an accident. Safety awareness is obviously huge. unfortunately, the more a person does something the odds start to work against us. 

i have never been involved in a ts acident in 35 yrs of woodworking. if i do, i want it to be on a saw stop!


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## rrbrown

cabinetman said:


> IMO, that's the wrong place to be looking. The operator should be concentrating on the stock against the fence, not watching the cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I agree. If your cutting a dado you can't see the blade. If the saw and fence or properly set up there is no need to see the blade cutting.


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## woodnthings

*dados are unique*



rrbrown said:


> I agree. If your cutting a dado you can't see the blade. If the saw and fence or properly set up there is no need to see the blade cutting.


Like a partial kerf, a dado does not pierce the surface above. You won't/can't get cut if the blade does not come through the material all the way. 

I like to know where the blade is as well as know that the material is being registered against the fence. I know that by pressing "in" and "forward" simultaneously, the material is maintained against the fence, if it has been properly pepared with a good straight edge.

I also want to know where the blade is, IF it's exposed, so I don't place my hands directly in it's path AND at what point in the pass to grab the push shoe kept available resting on the fence. I see no harm in both watching the registration against fence and the blade simultaneously. When ripping narrow pieces you will automatically look at both. When ripping wide panels it's still a good idea in my opinion. You won't saw through your fingers if you see the blade coming at them..... usually.:blink:


----------



## rrbrown

woodnthings said:


> Like a partial kerf, a dado does not pierce the surface above. You won't/can't get cut if the blade does not come through the material all the way.
> 
> I like to know where the blade is as well as know that the material is being registered against the fence. I know that by pressing "in" and "forward" simultaneously, the material is maintained against the fence, if it has been properly pepared with a good straight edge.
> 
> I also want to know where the blade is, IF it's exposed, so I don't place my hands directly in it's path AND at what point in the pass to grab the push shoe kept available resting on the fence. I see no harm in both watching the registration against fence and the blade simultaneously. When ripping narrow pieces you will automatically look at both. When ripping wide panels it's still a good idea in my opinion. You won't saw through your fingers if you see the blade coming at them..... usually.:blink:


First off Bill I wasn't talking about cutting yourself. Since you mentioned it people have cut themselves while cutting dado's. it's harder to tell where the blade is and they have gotten cut as the blade exits. In that case knowing a safe distance to have your hand or use push stick/shoes should be a top concern.

My point is you cut a straight dado right where it is setup if everything is aligned. Same goes for a through cuts. However watching the blade cut and being aware of where the blade is or different. People claiming they can't see the blade through the guard only need to know where the guard is not actually see the blade cutting. You can easily watch the fence and be aware of the blade location.

Look I said it before if an accident is going to happen it's going to happen. Saying you can stop an accident is just not a true statement. An accident is something that happens unexpectedly, if you know its coming and do it anyway you did it on purpose. At best you can try to prevent an accident by practicing safe procedures just as I always had. Yet 9 fingers is sitting here telling you it can still happen.:laughing:

I've said this before also. I use to have the same attitude as the rest of you that if your safe it won't happen to me. Guess what it did, I was wrong and if it doesn't happen to you consider yourself lucky not safer then others. Everyone always says they know the risk. Using safety features as intended helps and should be encouraged yet the best safety feature around is being discouraged. It makes no sense to me. Now don't get me wrong I understand not wanting it mandatory but to discourage people from buying it because your against his pushing the mandatory thing is wrong. Not you personally but some have. 

Maybe its because I have experienced that no matter how safe you are things can still happen that I and others like me now have a different view then the rest of you. I dunno.:thumbsup::laughing:


----------



## ryan50hrl

rrbrown said:


> . Maybe its because I have experienced that no matter how safe you are things can still happen that I and others like me now have a different view then the rest of you. I dunno.:thumbsup::laughing:


I'm with you on the benefits of it...

I'm guessing many of those that are opposed are the same ones that don't wear seat belts or a helmet on motorcycles. 

To me, If a safety system exists that dramatically reduces the risk of a major accident....and you don't take advantage of it, that's just plain old stupid. Motorcycles, cars and tablesaws all are dangerous.....if your in a position to reduce your risk on any of them and you don't....that just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## rrbrown

Hammer1 said:


> That's the real question and the essence of the debate. It's the reason the technology has not been adapted or mandated. There is no guarantee the brake will work just like there is no guarantee your car will start today. The odds are it will work and the car will start but there is that off chance, regardless of how remote that chance might be.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the costs manufacturers will incur, nothing to do with paying for patents. Your car may not start due to a loose battery connection, the saw brake may not work for some similar basic reason. The market place will determine if the public wants the technology. We have better saws, better fences, better guards, the choice of right or left tilt, the addition of riving knives and better dust collection due to market place demands, not because of a mandate. I'm sure it cost Delta plenty to offer a left tilt saw, it's not about the money or changes to design and production or even the outcome of lawsuits.


I have to say that remote chance is probably less likely then you winning the lottery. Its electronics if there was a bad connection or faulty part the saw does not start. Don't put a brake on it and it won't start, hell to turn off the safety feature requires a key and pushing, holding then releasing a button at the proper time or it won't work. turn off the saw and try to restart it before it resets and it won't start. Put the regular brake on with a dado blade and it won't start. Its a lot different then starting a car trust me.

I'll agree that there is a highly remote chance that it won't work but that's only because the only thing that is for certain is no one lives forever. Now the chance that the one time you make a mistake and that remote chance it don't work is at the exact same time is astronomical at best. Just saying


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## rrbrown

ryan50hrl said:


> I'm with you on the benefits of it...
> 
> I'm guessing many of those that are opposed are the same ones that don't wear seat belts or a helmet on motorcycles.
> 
> To me, If a safety system exists that dramatically reduces the risk of a major accident....and you don't take advantage of it, that's just plain old stupid. Motorcycles, cars and tablesaws all are dangerous.....if your in a position to reduce your risk on any of them and you don't....that just doesn't make sense to me.


I even understand the cost issue more then most. The cost and my 25 years experience is why I thought I didn't need one. Then I lost a finger realizing I made a big mistake not getting it the first time when I really wanted it. Unfortunately some people only think they can't afford it while others really can't and some refuse to on principle. 

Either way if and when they have that moment like I did they will likely feel the same way. 

It's a shame they didn't or can't come to an agreement because in the long run it would likely lower the cost of the technology so more people could afford it.


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## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> I'm with you on the benefits of it...
> 
> I'm guessing many of those that are opposed are the same ones that don't wear seat belts or a helmet on motorcycles.
> 
> To me, If a safety system exists that dramatically reduces the risk of a major accident....and you don't take advantage of it, that's just plain old stupid. Motorcycles, cars and tablesaws all are dangerous.....if your in a position to reduce your risk on any of them and you don't....that just doesn't make sense to me.


Well let me know when you get hit by another car using your table saw. Gees.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl

al b thayer said:


> well let me know when you get hit by another car using your table saw. Gees.
> 
> Al
> 
> nails only hold themselves.


huh?


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## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> huh?


You can't compare wearing seat belts and helmets to safety guards on saws. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl

Al B Thayer said:


> You can't compare wearing seat belts and helmets to safety guards on saws.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.



Why not.....both risky activities.....both prone to personal accidents and accidents caused by factors outside our own control. Also, both have safety devices to make the activity safer. How are they not similar?


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> Why not.....both risky activities.....both prone to personal accidents and accidents caused by factors outside our own control. Also, both have safety devices to make the activity safer. How are they not similar?


Because no one is going to run into me in my shop. I am at liberty to use the tool as I see fit and no one else is evolved. I don't need government telling me how to use the tool. Cars and seat belts effect other people at the same time you are using the car. 50% of the reason for seat belts and helmets is the other guy you can't control. 

I wear seat belts and helmets. I don't use a gaurd on my saw because I think they can aid in unsafe cuts for many reasons. I use safe methods of cutting that remove the risk. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## ryan50hrl

No one ever comes into your shop? Nothing ever falls over or off the bench startling you, boards don't ever do weird things when cutting? Power doesn't go off.....someone doesn't knock on the door.....

Accidents do happen......regardless of how careful someone is. They may not happen often, but they can happen and it may only take once.


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## Steve Neul

I don't know anything about the sawstop aside of what people have written about it. It sounds good but I don't think I would ever want one. It's a gadget and the more gadgets especially electronic ones put on cars and things I use make my life miserable. I had a saw one time that had a brake on it that would stop the blade almost instantly when you shut the saw off. Problem is it often engaged the brake while I was using the saw. I replaced the brake mechanism a couple of times and finally just took it off altogether. I would expect the sawstop to do the same when it gets a little old.


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## ryan50hrl

Electronics have come a long long long way in 10 years...


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## dhh57

The conductivity of your hand is dependant on the moisture in your hand? What happens in the dead of winter when humidity is 30% or less and you hands are dry. they always use a hotdog for demonstration which is very wet.


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## dhh57

ryan50hrl said:


> Electronics have come a long long long way in 10 years...


Depends and most are now made in China with varying degree of quality.


----------



## cabinetman

Al B Thayer said:


> Because no one is going to run into me in my shop. I am at liberty to use the tool as I see fit and no one else is evolved. I don't need government telling me how to use the tool. Cars and seat belts effect other people at the same time you are using the car. 50% of the reason for seat belts and helmets is the other guy you can't control.
> 
> I wear seat belts and helmets. I don't use a gaurd on my saw because I think they can aid in unsafe cuts for many reasons. I use safe methods of cutting that remove the risk.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


I'll bet Mark G's left nut that the guys that cut their finger off and didn't have the safety devices employed said the exact same thing. I'd bet his other one that the stats are fairly low for those that had an amputation with the guard on.


















.


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## cabinetman

Steve Neul said:


> had a saw one time that had a brake on it that would stop the blade almost instantly when you shut the saw off. Problem is it often engaged the brake while I was using the saw. I replaced the brake mechanism a couple of times and finally just took it off altogether. I would expect the sawstop to do the same when it gets a little old.


I'm not saying you're a big fat fibber, or just making up a story, but that's really hard to believe. But, you can't always tell. Some people say they have seen aliens, while others say they saw Bigfoot. There's got to be somebody that says they saw both.:laughing:


















.


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## ryan50hrl

dhh57 said:


> Depends and most are now made in China with varying degree of quality.


Sure....but without any proof to the contrary we assume that the electronics in the sawstop are of low quality? My iphone came from china....and it is one of the highest quality pieces if electronics I've ever bought....works right every time. 

Furthermore, look inside a sawstop....I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything on it that's not made to a really high quality....they're pretty well built like a tank.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> Sure....but without any proof to the contrary we assume that the electronics in the sawstop are of low quality? My iphone came from china....and it is one of the highest quality pieces if electronics I've ever bought....works right every time.
> 
> Furthermore, look inside a sawstop....I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything on it that's not made to a really high quality....they're pretty well built like a tank.


Without any proof, you can't assume anything reliably. You can't assume that the electronics are of low quality. You also can't assume that the electronics are of high quality. You can't even assume the electronics are of a quality somewhere between low and high. 

You're objecting to DHH57 assuming something that he doesn't know, and in the process, you're assuming something you don't know. Do you know that the electronics are high quality? Do you know anything about how the parts are manufactured? Do you know what makes electronics high quality as opposed to low quality? Do you know anything about the metallurgy of the connections in the electronic circuits? Can you honestly say that you know they are high quality because you've looked at them and they look pretty?

Without proof to the contrary, do we just assume that the electronics in the Sawstop are of high quality?


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## ryan50hrl

Miller Woodworks said:


> Without any proof, you can't assume anything reliably. You can't assume that the electronics are of low quality. You also can't assume that the electronics are of high quality. You can't even assume the electronics are of a quality somewhere between low and high. You're objecting to DHH57 assuming something that he doesn't know, and in the process, you're assuming something you don't know. Do you know that the electronics are high quality? Do you know anything about how the parts are manufactured? Do you know what makes electronics high quality as opposed to low quality? Do you know anything about the metallurgy of the connections in the electronic circuits? Can you honestly say that you know they are high quality because you've looked at them and they look pretty? Without proof to the contrary, do we just assume that the electronics in the Sawstop are of high quality?


Based on a track record that goes back 10 years now, and the inability to find one documented case of sawstop technology failure, I'm making an assumption of quality.


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## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> Based on a track record that goes back 10 years now, and the inability to find one documented case of sawstop technology failure, I'm making an assumption of quality.


You're still making an assumption and complaining when others do the same. You can't complain that someone else is making an assumption when you're doing the same thing.


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## spark0506

I like SawStop and bought one a few years back. Since buying it I haven't been disappointed in any way. It's a fine saw. 

I just couldn't ignore the safety features once the machine was demonstrated for me. After the demo I knew I had to buy one when I upgraded from my old table saw. 

For me anyway it has nothing to do with any other situations in life. It's simply a major break through in table saw safety and I wanted it. I feel very good and also kind of lucky about having the newer technology in my shop. I realize that it comes at a bit of a premium money wise but at the same time I also feel it's a pretty cheap insurance policy. 

I don't find myself being any less safe around the saw just because of it's safety features. 

Maybe it's also a little bit of an age thing. The older I get the more I think about safety issues.


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## TimPa

this video is on MSN video now

http://msnvideo.msn.com/?videoid=c9...=v5:share:sharepermalink:&from=sharepermalink
might have to cut and paste


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## ryan50hrl

Miller Woodworks said:


> You're still making an assumption and complaining when others do the same. You can't complain that someone else is making an assumption when you're doing the same thing.


I'm using something to back my assumption up.....no data to show that it doesn't work, and thousands of testimonials that it does....


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## ctwiggs1

Miller Woodworks said:


> Without any proof, you can't assume anything reliably. You can't assume that the electronics are of low quality. You also can't assume that the electronics are of high quality. You can't even assume the electronics are of a quality somewhere between low and high.
> 
> You're objecting to DHH57 assuming something that he doesn't know, and in the process, you're assuming something you don't know. Do you know that the electronics are high quality? Do you know anything about how the parts are manufactured? Do you know what makes electronics high quality as opposed to low quality? Do you know anything about the metallurgy of the connections in the electronic circuits? Can you honestly say that you know they are high quality because you've looked at them and they look pretty?
> 
> Without proof to the contrary, do we just assume that the electronics in the Sawstop are of high quality?



I actually work in the electronics manufacturing industry so yes I do know the difference between low quality and high quality.

The reality though is this - without looking at the PCA/PCB, the wire selection, contact/connector selection, the crimps, and whether or not these assemblies measure up to IPC 610/620, I think that Ryan has an excellent point: We have all seen people's pics and testimonials from when it worked - show us when it hasn't? The reality is that even if these are manufactured offshore, it appears that their QE and incoming inspectors are top notch.

Curtis


----------



## woodnthings

*just imagine....*



ctwiggs1 said:


> I actually work in the electronics manufacturing industry so yes I do know the difference between low quality and high quality.
> 
> The reality though is this - without looking at the PCA/PCB, the wire selection, contact/connector selection, the crimps, and whether or not these assemblies measure up to IPC 610/620, I think that Ryan has an excellent point: We have all seen people's pics and testimonials from when it worked - show us when it hasn't? The reality is that even if these are manufactured offshore, it appears that their QE and incoming inspectors are top notch.
> 
> Curtis



What if the touted safety brake fails? There would be the lawsuit of the decade against Saw Stop. :yes: The lawyers would need lawyers.... So it's in the best interest of Saw Stop to quality control to the 'nth degree, as any bad press would not be good.


----------



## ctwiggs1

woodnthings said:


> What if the touted safety brake fails? There would be the lawsuit of the decade against Saw Stop. :yes: The lawyers would need lawyers.... So it's in the best interest of Saw Stop to quality control to the 'nth degree, as any bad press would not be good.



No doubt - it's certainly in their best interest to have excellent quality standards, especially given the field of their technology (human safety).


----------



## rrbrown

There is just a wild guess or assumption and then there is an educated guess or assuption and then there is true facts which in many cases is still not a guarantee. 

On Ryans side we have a saw that most everyone can agree is a very well built and thought out saw. Safety feature not considered. So if they thought out the saw to very small details and its made at a very high standard couldn't he be assumed on a very high level that the most important part of a well built and thought out saw be made at a very high Quality? I think most would say yes. Now the saw has been out for 10 years with not a story one about it failing. Don't uou think with all the haters out there that would be plastered all over the internet?

Now to blindly say that the saws electronics or not of high quality and that it will likely not work because a car may not start is a bad assumption. Those to things have nothing in common. If you have any reasoning skills what so ever you should be able to see the difference. However if it is looked at with a closed mind thT has already been made up uou willnot see it. 

That goes for anything. People look at things or other people all the time with a perception of what they think at first glance or because of a personal opinion based on good info or not. An open mind will allow you to see both sides of an issue or the truth about someone or something that you may mot have seen. 

Personally I think the technology should be on every saw. I also looked at the facts and with the exception of the bread and butter cheap saws I think it could be on every saw for a reasonable cost if everyone went with it. However as strongly as I feel about the technology I have to assume that the critics or manufacturers are right in the case of the cheaper saws. They very well would be priced out of the market because if not, SawStop would have a $300-$400 Job site saw on the market already. As hard as he is pushing if it were possible he would have it. 

Now with that said. I have no data on this and I lost my finger to a cabinet saw. However I believe that a larger portion of the accidents probably come from those cheaper or less expensive job site saws. I base that on them being smaller and not as well built. They are an entry level saw that most DIY can afford and likely have little experience for safety. Many see those DIY shows that promote no blade guards and cutting large sheets om small saws. Could I be wrong yes but I listed what info I considered and the fact that my accident was completely against everything I used to make my assumption. 

So should it really be on every saw knowing it will likely price those out the market. If my assumption is correct it would then start to prevent most if not all accidents only when all the used saws are gone. That will likely be never. It would also make anyone wanting a new saw to pay 6-10 times more for a entry level saw and therefore shows yet another couple of reasons why making it mandatory won't work. 

Now I think I've shown that I can look at both sides of a story and still honestly be fair minded.


----------



## ctwiggs1

rrbrown said:


> There is just a wild guess or assumption and then there is an educated guess or assuption and then there is true facts which in many cases is still not a guarantee.
> 
> On Ryans side we have a saw that most everyone can agree is a very well built and thought out saw. Safety feature not considered. So if they thought out the saw to very small details and its made at a very high standard couldn't he be assumed on a very high level that the most important part of a well built and thought out saw be made at a very high Quality? I think most would say yes. Now the saw has been out for 10 years with not a story one about it failing. Don't uou think with all the haters out there that would be plastered all over the internet?
> 
> Now to blindly say that the saws electronics or not of high quality and that it will likely not work because a car may not start is a bad assumption. Those to things have nothing in common. If you have any reasoning skills what so ever you should be able to see the difference. However if it is looked at with a closed mind thT has already been made up uou willnot see it.
> 
> That goes for anything. People look at things or other people all the time with a perception of what they think at first glance or because of a personal opinion based on good info or not. An open mind will allow you to see both sides of an issue or the truth about someone or something that you may mot have seen.
> 
> Personally I think the technology should be on every saw. I also looked at the facts and with the exception of the bread and butter cheap saws I think it could be on every saw for a reasonable cost if everyone went with it. However as strongly as I feel about the technology I have to assume that the critics or manufacturers are right in the case of the cheaper saws. They very well would be priced out of the market because if not, SawStop would have a $300-$400 Job site saw on the market already. As hard as he is pushing if it were possible he would have it.
> 
> Now with that said. I have no data on this and I lost my finger to a cabinet saw. However I believe that a larger portion of the accidents probably come from those cheaper or less expensive job site saws. I base that on them being smaller and not as well built. They are an entry level saw that most DIY can afford and likely have little experience for safety. Many see those DIY shows that promote no blade guards and cutting large sheets om small saws. Could I be wrong yes but I listed what info I considered and the fact that my accident was completely against everything I used to make my assumption.
> 
> So should it really be on every saw knowing it will likely price those out the market. If my assumption is correct it would then start to prevent most if not all accidents only when all the used saws are gone. That will likely be never. It would also make anyone wanting a new saw to pay 6-10 times more for a entry level saw and therefore shows yet another couple of reasons why making it mandatory won't work.
> 
> Now I think I've shown that I can look at both sides of a story and still honestly be fair minded.


I doubt that the cost would increase as much as people think it would if it were to go to actual mass production. Even if the guy was getting his licensing fees.

Curtis


----------



## ryan50hrl

From knowing a little about pricing manufacturing and importing....I don't disagree that the over all cost could be far less if it was widely adopted.


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> No one ever comes into your shop? Nothing ever falls over or off the bench startling you, boards don't ever do weird things when cutting? Power doesn't go off.....someone doesn't knock on the door.....
> 
> Accidents do happen......regardless of how careful someone is. They may not happen often, but they can happen and it may only take once.


We control our own destiny. Government needs to stay out of our lives. They've messed up so much of it already.

No way I'm ever going to put a guard on my table saw. No way I'm ever going to buy a saw stop.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> Electronics have come a long long long way in 10 years...


Our Government can't even make a web site work. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## ctwiggs1

Al B Thayer said:


> Our Government can't even make a web site work.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


Apples and oranges.


----------



## ryan50hrl

Al B Thayer said:


> Our Government can't even make a web site work. Al Nails only hold themselves.


What does the government have to do with anything??? 

Sawstop was designed in the private sector....the same as cars, planes, furnaces ect that all meet regulations and standards.


----------



## ryan50hrl

Al B Thayer said:


> We control our own destiny. Government needs to stay out of our lives. They've messed up so much of it already. No way I'm ever going to put a guard on my table saw. No way I'm ever going to buy a saw stop. Al Nails only hold themselves.


So this is less about logic and more about principal....the fact that someone doesn't use a guard should be all the more reason to use sawstop tech.....but hey....they're your fingers...


----------



## Al B Thayer

cabinetman said:


> I'll bet Mark G's left nut that the guys that cut their finger off and didn't have the safety devices employed said the exact same thing. I'd bet his other one that the stats are fairly low for those that had an amputation with the guard on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I had guards on saws and removed them due because they weren't safe to use. Guards that are safe to use don't provide full protection. Best off if one just uses the tool in a safe manor. 

The great thing about it is Im still, at this time, free to make this choice.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## ctwiggs1

cabinetman said:


> I'll bet Mark G's left nut that the guys that cut their finger off and didn't have the safety devices employed said the exact same thing. I'd bet his other one that the stats are fairly low for those that had an amputation with the guard on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Cabinetman - does Mark G know you're betting with his nuts??


----------



## Al B Thayer

ctwiggs1 said:


> Apples and oranges.


Some one was lauding how far electronics have come. Which is true. But when the government mandates the use of electronics and sets a regulation. I refer back to my later comment. 

Apples telling oranges what tastes good.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## rrbrown

Al B Thayer said:


> We control our own destiny. Government needs to stay out of our lives. They've messed up so much of it already.
> 
> No way I'm ever going to put a guard on my table saw. No way I'm ever going to buy a saw stop.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


So if your insurance says we won't cover you without having this technogy. 

What then?

Can they sure they ask about pets, how many and types. They ask about fire arms,fire exstinguishers and if you have 20k and up in tolls you would want it covered right? 

Just a question to see where you are on this hole subject. It sounds more like a I'll stick it to the man type of thinking. 😃


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> What does the government have to do with anything???
> 
> Sawstop was designed in the private sector....the same as cars, planes, furnaces ect that all meet regulations and standards.


Ugh.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## rrbrown

ctwiggs1 said:


> Cabinetman - does Mark G know you're betting with his nuts??


Now thats funny.


----------



## ctwiggs1

Al B Thayer said:


> Some one was lauding how far electronics have come. Which is true. But when the government mandates the use of electronics and sets a regulation. I refer back to my later comment.
> 
> Apples telling oranges what tastes good.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


Completely different industries. 

You're talking about bandwidth in a data center for the AHCA. I agree and anybody will agree that they did a terrible job with it. This is entirely a design and implementation failure. A better comparison to this would be if your house fell in on itself due to a poorly engineered stud system that couldn't support the second story. To take things further, it would be the same as if people had warned you over and over about this poorly designed house and you failed to take it seriously.

This is safety regulations in the electronics and tooling manufacturing industries. Completely different. A better example than a website would be "If electronics have come so far, why does my iPhone 4 die when it says I have 20% battery left?" LOL I wonder out loud about that one regularly.

That's what I mean when I say "apples and oranges". That you're not making an accurate comparison.

Curtis


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Do we have any popcorn left? Logic has been completely thrown out of the window in this thread, so there's really nothing left to do but enjoy the chaos. I wonder if there's any caramel popcorn. I don't care who you are, that's good stuff!


----------



## ctwiggs1

Miller Woodworks said:


> Do we have any popcorn left? Logic has been completely thrown out of the window in this thread, so there's really nothing left to do but enjoy the chaos. I wonder if there's any caramel popcorn. I don't care who you are, that's good stuff!



The minute you suggested pouring caramel on popcorn I instantly agreed that logic was tossed out the window.


----------



## cabinetman

ctwiggs1 said:


> "If electronics have come so far, why does my iPhone 4 die when it says I have 20% battery left?" LOL I wonder out loud about that one regularly.
> Curtis



I've gone to 11% and it didn't die.








 







.


----------



## ryan50hrl

cabinetman said:


> I've gone to 11% and it didn't die. .


Mine almost daily goes to 5% or less....it's only ever shut off 3 or 4 times and all of them it's been at 1% for a while.


----------



## mdntrdr

*Cmon Guys...*

Let's get back on subject. :smile:


----------



## ctwiggs1

ryan50hrl said:


> Mine almost daily goes to 5% or less....it's only ever shut off 3 or 4 times and all of them it's been at 1% for a while.


LOL mine varies. all I know is once I hit 25% I really need to charge soon or I could be in trouble.

Curtis


----------



## captainawesome

Will we ever learn on this forum? Every thread I've seen about saw stop has been started by a brand new member who never posts again in the thread. Then it's just page after page of the same arguments over and over again. 

Maybe we should all just post our views of saw stop (and the gov't for that matter) in our signatures and that will be that?


----------



## ryan50hrl

ctwiggs1 said:


> LOL mine varies. all I know is once I hit 25% I really need to charge soon or I could be in trouble.
> 
> Curtis



I really wish Apple would get over this thinner every generation idea on the phone....and make an iphone with a battery that would last all day. This isn't an apple bash....just an all smartphone bash. My Iphone 4s is plenty thin and light.....I'd take a bit heavier and thicker to get a better battery any day of the week.


----------



## ryan50hrl

captainawesome said:


> Maybe we should all just post our views of saw stop (and the gov't for that matter) in our signatures and that will be that?



Done!!!! :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:


----------



## rrbrown

captainawesome said:


> Will we ever learn on this forum? Every thread I've seen about saw stop has been started by a brand new member who never posts again in the thread. Then it's just page after page of the same arguments over and over again.
> 
> Maybe we should all just post our views of saw stop (and the gov't for that matter) in our signatures and that will be that?


No political post or signatures please.


----------



## rrbrown

ryan50hrl said:


> I really wish Apple would get over this thinner every generation idea on the phone....and make an iphone with a battery that would last all day. This isn't an apple bash....just an all smartphone bash. My Iphone 4s is plenty thin and light.....I'd take a bit heavier and thicker to get a better battery any day of the week.


My 5s is just fine. If you use it that much get a external battery case or the 5s.


----------



## rrbrown

ryan50hrl said:


> Done!!!! :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:


Yep sure is!!! :laughing:


----------



## ryan50hrl

Is not!!!


----------



## jharris2

Is too!


----------



## rrich

TimPa said:


> this video is on MSN video now
> 
> http://msnvideo.msn.com/?videoid=c9...=v5:share:sharepermalink:&from=sharepermalink
> might have to cut and paste


Interesting! First time I've seen the demo with a finger.

When the brake trips, it takes about 3 teeth before it stops. In slow motion, the stop seems to be exceptionally violent. (I guess that it should be.) I have to wonder what effect the stopping action has on bearings and trunnion.


----------



## rrich

Al B Thayer said:


> I had guards on saws and removed them due because they weren't safe to use. Guards that are safe to use don't provide full protection.


 Oh Al,
Unsafe (in your opinion and mine) guards offer the ONLY protection that the manufacturer cares about. The guards reduce the manufacturer's liability to almost zero.


----------



## BigJoe16

rrich said:


> Interesting! First time I've seen the demo with a finger. When the brake trips, it takes about 3 teeth before it stops. In slow motion, the stop seems to be exceptionally violent. (I guess that it should be.) I have to wonder what effect the stopping action has on bearings and trunnion.


I've wondered that too. But with as popular as these saws are, and the countless reviews and users reviews, I'd imagine it isn't as destructive as it seems. 

I've read of many people asking, but no one seems to have a negative answer, as far as I have seen. 

But then again how often does one set it off?


----------



## Toolman2

I don't see why the government doesn't give a rebate for buying a Sawstop instead of another TS just like they do for hybrid autos, just saying.


----------



## ctwiggs1

Toolman2 said:


> I don't see why the government doesn't give a rebate for buying a Sawstop instead of another TS just like they do for hybrid autos, just saying.


I'd be against that unless it was licensed to other manufacturers. I'm 100% against the government favoring a sole manufacturer.


----------



## ryan50hrl

ctwiggs1 said:


> I'd be against that unless it was licensed to other manufacturers. I'm 100% against the government favoring a sole manufacturer.


He's offered it to virtually every other manufacturer for licensing. They all passed.


----------



## ctwiggs1

ryan50hrl said:


> He's offered it to virtually every other manufacturer for licensing. They all passed.


I know. Regardless, I'm against it.


----------



## jharris2

Toolman2 said:


> I don't see why the government doesn't give a rebate for buying a Sawstop instead of another TS just like they do for hybrid autos, just saying.


The government doesn't have any money of its own.

That said why should those of us who pay taxes pay a rebate?


----------



## rrich

BigJoe16 said:


> But then again how often does one set it off?


I know somebody that bought a contractor model of Saw Stop. He has tripped his twice in the first month. 

By his description, the first was he hit the blade with his tape measure while the blade was spinning but shut off. It seems that as long as the blade is spinning the stopping feature is active. (No comment)

The second was (IIRC) cutting a piece of treated wood or he hit the miter gauge. 

I also know of someone that claimed that he turned the saw on, turned to pick up some sheet material and before he could put the material on the saw, the mechanism tripped. 

One of the magazines documented a blade drop when an intern hit the miter gauge with the blade. 

There is four that I am aware of. Of those 4 drops no one has said anything about bearings or alignment issues. The saw must have one heck of a trunnion system.


----------



## ryan50hrl

rrich said:


> I know somebody that bought a contractor model of Saw Stop. He has tripped his twice in the first month. By his description, the first was he hit the blade with his tape measure while the blade was spinning but shut off. It seems that as long as the blade is spinning the stopping feature is active. (No comment) The second was (IIRC) cutting a piece of treated wood or he hit the miter gauge. I also know of someone that claimed that he turned the saw on, turned to pick up some sheet material and before he could put the material on the saw, the mechanism tripped. One of the magazines documented a blade drop when an intern hit the miter gauge with the blade. There is four that I am aware of. Of those 4 drops no one has said anything about bearings or alignment issues. The saw must have one heck of a trunnion system.


The saw very well should activate when powered off and still moving.....there's enough kinetic energy in a spinning blade and arbor even when not under power to take off a finger. 

Hitting the miter gauge? That's just plain stupid. 

If he was cutting treated and didn't read the manual about deactivating it that's their own fault....

The trunnions are huge in the sawstops compared to similar saws.


----------



## mrcanterbury

I was just at woodcraft and got the 125% tour. I asked about the hits the a arbor takes when it triggers. The blade goes up and down on like a router lift on 2 screw points. It also has the one fixed point pivot like all other saws. When it's tripped the non fixed side acts like a quick release from the torque of the blade wanting to be forced down and just drops. The riving knife that goes up and down with the blade rides on the screw mechanism, therefore it doesn't drop with the blade and this is why the trunion isnt harmed. After a trigger you just lower the blade all the way to pick it back up. Hope that helps.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> If he was cutting treated and didn't read the manual about deactivating it that's their own fault....


Deactivating it? Whoa! You're not talking about deactivating a safety feature are you? That blade could slice off your arm! The blade doesn't care if the wood is treated or not. It'll cut your arm off just as quickly. I can't believe you're suggesting that someone would intentionally deactivate a safety feature. That's so irresponsible. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## ryan50hrl

Miller Woodworks said:


> Deactivating it? Whoa! You're not talking about deactivating a safety feature are you? That blade could slice off your arm! The blade doesn't care if the wood is treated or not. It'll cut your arm off just as quickly. I can't believe you're suggesting that someone would intentionally deactivate a safety feature. That's so irresponsible. :icon_rolleyes:


Lol. Your right....it's why I prefer to just not work with treated lumber.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

ryan50hrl said:


> Lol. Your right....it's why I prefer to just not work with treated lumber.


Now that I agree with.


----------



## Brentley

Not keep pouring gasoline on what is obviously a raging inferno at this point but here goes anyway.

Liability versus Cost. One of the least appealing aspects of the way that Ford has dealt with liability in the past (the pinto and explorer tire cases) is a telling study. In the pinto case they determined that it would be less costly to not do a recall and pay for litigation. In the explorer case they had learned the lesson and were very active in recalling the offending tires (even on non explorer vehicles). 

So now put yourself in the shoes of a TS manufacturer. As a TS manufacturer I feel like I was just strong armed into licensing a technology that raises the retail cost of my product as well as bringing my support costs up as users struggle with the system. I also have customer satisfaction issues as users don't read the how to guide and trigger the product, which borks a blade and then costs them another 80 bucks. When this happens the user blames me and calls and complains. 

It is not an easy problem or issue to deal with. I am a fan of the technology and have seen it demoed a couple of times, but if I am contractor etc. I am not sure I want to pay for the costs of it every time it trips.


----------



## BassBlaster

ryan50hrl said:


> So this is less about logic and more about principal....the fact that someone doesn't use a guard should be all the more reason to use sawstop tech.....but hey....they're your fingers...


 YES YES YES!!!! Thats been the point all along. It has nothing to do with the technology itself and everything to do with the fact the guy is trying to get a Gov mandate because no one wants to play with him. You said it, its his fingers. He has every right to chop them off if he wants. The Gov needs to stay out of peoples lives. I dont have a problem if Gass sells a million saws and I dont have a problem with anyone that buys one. Thats thier choice. The point is to KEEP IT A CHOICE! I dont care how good or bad the saw is, I dont care how much or how little the saw cost. I dont want the Gov telling me what tools I can or can not buy.

Why is this so difficult for people to get? Why do people today love the Gov dealing in every aspect of thier lives? What ever happened to freedom? What happened to responsibility?


----------



## ryan50hrl

The government had been in the business of governing since it inception. Since the very beginning it made rules and regulations.....people didn't like it then, and they don't like it now....but I'm pretty sure they don't want the air of Beijing....the water of sub Saharan Africa....or the health and safety issues of any of the other 3rd world.....and rules and regulations are why.


----------



## rrbrown

Brentley said:


> Not keep pouring gasoline on what is obviously a raging inferno at this point but here goes anyway.
> 
> Liability versus Cost. One of the least appealing aspects of the way that Ford has dealt with liability in the past (the pinto and explorer tire cases) is a telling study. In the pinto case they determined that it would be less costly to not do a recall and pay for litigation. In the explorer case they had learned the lesson and were very active in recalling the offending tires (even on non explorer vehicles).
> 
> So now put yourself in the shoes of a TS manufacturer. As a TS manufacturer I feel like I was just strong armed into licensing a technology that raises the retail cost of my product as well as bringing my support costs up as users struggle with the system. I also have customer satisfaction issues as users don't read the how to guide and trigger the product, which borks a blade and then costs them another 80 bucks. When this happens the user blames me and calls and complains.
> 
> It is not an easy problem or issue to deal with. I am a fan of the technology and have seen it demoed a couple of times, but if I am contractor etc. I am not sure I want to pay for the costs of it every time it trips.


Contractors would benefit from lower insurance cost, as for the technical aspect its really not that difficult to understand. The instructions or plain simple and plenty of clear pictures. Matter a fact if you can't understand the instructions you should not be on a saw of any kind.


----------



## BassBlaster

ryan50hrl said:


> The government had been in the business of governing since it inception. Since the very beginning it made rules and regulations.....people didn't like it then, and they don't like it now....but I'm pretty sure they don't want the air of Beijing....the water of sub Saharan Africa....or the health and safety issues of any of the other 3rd world.....and rules and regulations are why.


 Now were talking about general regulations. I dont think youll find many people to argue with you that the Gov does need to regulate some things, particularly where public safety is concerned. The Gov has no business regulating personal safety. Personal safety and public safety are two completely different subjects. If what I am doing puts your life in danger, the Gov can step in and regulate me, therefore Im all for drinking and driving laws and clean water regulations etc etc etc. If I dont wear a seat belt or a helmet, it dosnt affect your life so it becomes no ones business but mine.


----------



## rrbrown

Miller Woodworks said:


> Deactivating it? Whoa! You're not talking about deactivating a safety feature are you? That blade could slice off your arm! The blade doesn't care if the wood is treated or not. It'll cut your arm off just as quickly. I can't believe you're suggesting that someone would intentionally deactivate a safety feature. That's so irresponsible. :icon_rolleyes:


it can not be deactivated for more then one cycle of turning the saw on and off without going through the whole process again, not to mention the guard is still on. Still as safe as any other saw even with the flesh sensing disabled for a single cut.


----------



## rrbrown

Brentley said:


> Not keep pouring gasoline on what is obviously a raging inferno at this point but here goes anyway.
> 
> Liability versus Cost. One of the least appealing aspects of the way that Ford has dealt with liability in the past (the pinto and explorer tire cases) is a telling study. In the pinto case they determined that it would be less costly to not do a recall and pay for litigation. In the explorer case they had learned the lesson and were very active in recalling the offending tires (even on non explorer vehicles).
> 
> So now put yourself in the shoes of a TS manufacturer. As a TS manufacturer I feel like I was just strong armed into licensing a technology that raises the retail cost of my product as well as bringing my support costs up as users struggle with the system. I also have customer satisfaction issues as users don't read the how to guide and trigger the product, which borks a blade and then costs them another 80 bucks. When this happens the user blames me and calls and complains.
> 
> It is not an easy problem or issue to deal with. I am a fan of the technology and have seen it demoed a couple of times, but if I am contractor etc. I am not sure I want to pay for the costs of it every time it trips.


Wow its on right now about GM not recalling cars they new were defective for ten years that has caused multiple deaths and many accidents. 700,000 cars, man these manufacturers never learn.


----------



## rrich

rrbrown said:


> Contractors would benefit from lower insurance cost, as for the technical aspect its really not that difficult to understand. The instructions or plain simple and plenty of clear pictures. Matter a fact if you can't understand the instructions you should not be on a saw of any kind.


EXACTLY!

I have always said that workman's compensation insurance premiums would be reduced enough to pay for the saw over a few years. Any shop that has to cut wood on a table saw can save money.

Also schools with woodworking classes can make the school board happy by finding the funds to swap out their table saws with a Saw Stop. This alone could save woodshop classes in many public schools.

My community college received a grant to get rid of their 10 table saws and replace them with Saw Stop machines. (All 3 phase and either 5 or 7.5 HP.) I was part of the team that installed these saws. The fit and finish was as good as a UniSaw (mine) or a Powermatic (at Rockler). 

The technology is a phenomenal advance in safety. It is just a shame that lawyering tactics are being used to force the technology down our throats.


----------



## rrich

ryan50hrl said:


> The saw very well should activate when powered off and still moving.....there's enough kinetic energy in a spinning blade and arbor even when not under power to take off a finger.
> 
> Hitting the miter gauge? That's just plain stupid.
> 
> If he was cutting treated and didn't read the manual about deactivating it that's their own fault....
> 
> The trunnions are huge in the sawstops compared to similar saws.


 Well the miter gauge was one with a sliding aluminum fence. And yes, the lights were on but nobody was home.

When he told me about the measuring tape thing, I made a mental note, "I don't want him working in my shop."


----------



## Brentley

rrbrown said:


> Contractors would benefit from lower insurance cost, as for the technical aspect its really not that difficult to understand. The instructions or plain simple and plenty of clear pictures. Matter a fact if you can't understand the instructions you should not be on a saw of any kind.


I agree but I can envision a scenario where the users (not the contractor) think that all the safety gear slows things down, and then when the system triggers the contractor (who pays the bills) losing it since each misfire costs $100.


----------



## rrbrown

Brentley said:


> I agree but I can envision a scenario where the users (not the contractor) think that all the safety gear slows things down, and then when the system triggers the contractor (who pays the bills) losing it since each misfire costs $100.


Seriously if you train people and hire good help there should not be that many issues. That tripped cost if it saves a hand or finger is great for insurance. If its a false trip caused by not paying attention oh well. Same person does it again, guess who should cover the cost or find a new job.


----------



## cabinetman

rrbrown said:


> Seriously if you train people and hire good help there should not be that many issues. That tripped cost if it saves a hand or finger is great for insurance. If its a false trip caused by not paying attention oh well. Same person does it again, guess who should cover the cost or find a new job.


Liability for 'accidental' employee injury for employers without Workers Compensation Insurance is totally on them, and are judged as 'negligent' with regards to the 'accident', and are responsible for all costs incurred. It's possible though that a jury trial could decide otherwise, but is very unlikely.

But, OTOH, for the exact same 'accident', if the employer had WC, he/she is not considered negligent for the accident.


















.


----------



## b0y9ggz

captainawesome said:


> Will we ever learn on this forum? Every thread I've seen about saw stop has been started by a brand new member who never posts again in the thread. Then it's just page after page of the same arguments over and over again.
> 
> Maybe we should all just post our views of saw stop (and the gov't for that matter) in our signatures and that will be that?


Thank you catainawesome. As the OP and new member I agree completely. I had one simple question (or so I thought) which someone did answer buried some where in all these postings. I really have no interest in how the government should or should not be involved in this technology. I didn't ask about the life of iPhone batteries. I did not want to discuss why the technology was not licensed by other manufacturers. I like apples better than oranges but I was not asking about either. My current saw has guards and I use them, so I don't need discussions about why I should use them. So without sounding too deprecating, how about we all be big boys and girls and bring this thread to a close? If you agree don't post a response. I would like to know that I can post other questions/comments without the fear of having to sort through 150 posts to find my answer. Thank you all for your continued interest in helping us newbies with this wonderful woodworking activity.


----------



## rrich

rrbrown said:


> Seriously if you train people and hire good help there should not be that many issues. That tripped cost if it saves a hand or finger is great for insurance. If its a false trip caused by not paying attention oh well. Same person does it again, guess who should cover the cost or find a new job.


A friend who owned and operated a cabinet shop had an employee who hit a UniFence with the saw blade. The employee bought a new fence face and then found a new job, unwillingly.


----------



## coughinlady

"The early SawStops had issues with green lumber kicking off the brake...."



Can you explain why green lumber would do that? Just the moisture content? I use a lot of pine which frequently has pitch pockets in it and have often wondered how this saw could tell the difference between a finger or hot dog, and pitch.


----------



## rrbrown

coughinlady said:


> "The early SawStops had issues with green lumber kicking off the brake...."
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain why green lumber would do that? Just the moisture content? I use a lot of pine which frequently has pitch pockets in it and have often wondered how this saw could tell the difference between a finger or hot dog, and pitch.



Green lumber is wet it conducts current and trips the brake. Your comment about early models having problems is not correct. It was the early operators not following directions for cutting green lumber. 

Now as for your question about pine i have cut a decent amount with no problem. Maybe I was just lucky. However that question is best to be directed to SawStop techs themselves. Many times non believers of the technology and or unqualified people trying to answer question give wrong answers. For that reason going to the source is best. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## coughinlady

Thanks for the clarification, Bulldog. I pulled that green wood comment out of a different post but it got me wondering anew about how pitch would affect these saws. Maybe it has too high a goo factor to be an efficient conductor.


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## Johnny5

ryan50hrl said:


> The saw very well should activate when powered off and still moving.....there's enough kinetic energy in a spinning blade and arbor even when not under power to take off a finger.


Good to know. I've contemplated a saw stop purchase for the last few years. Ever since I ran my thumb through the blade of my current saw with the switch turned off. Didn't loose the thumb, but tore the sh!t out of it to the tune of about $24k to repair and reconstruct. Luckily, I was insured and it only cost me my deductible and copays for the follow up visits. Was out of work for about 6 weeks though, and no one was paying me to stay home so it cost me quite a bit from that end. 

Still haven't pulled the trigger on one, and I use a table saw at least once a week at work......


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## vinnypatternmaker

*Saw Stop*

Hi!
First off, we love the Saw Stop technical advantage :thumbsup:
One thing has perplexed us though.
On one video (where the owner of SS pushes his *own *fingers thru the blade) we noticed a catch;
He wets his hand with a *saline solution!!!* That solution (being an electrolyte) improves conductivety, thereby assisting the Saw Stop to "sense" his fingers' presence a micro second sooner than it would in a real situation with dry fingers.
Don't know of any woodworkers that work with saline coated 
hands :huh:!
If we were going to test it, we' likely wet our hands too :blink:!
All in all, the saw does work the way it's supposed to.
Just sayin'.
Best,
Marena and Vinny


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## Mgboyd25

Ive been interested in the Saw Stop for our shop for some time now. Only disclaimer I have heard is that you cannot cut some materials with the blade. Is that true?
The only materials we push through our saws would be Wood, Solidsurface, and plexi time to time.

Any other draw backs anyone has seen?


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## TS3660

I have heard stories where a drop of sweat on the board you are cutting will engage the stop. That's expensive. Also I have heard that treated wood will stop it. My question is "Since electrical conductivity is the key to stopping the blade, at what moisture content do you need to over ride the blade stop feature?"


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## Larry42

"Now as for your question about pine i have cut a decent amount with no problem. Maybe I was just lucky. However that question is best to be directed to SawStop techs themselves. Many times non believers of the technology and or unqualified people trying to answer question give wrong answers. For that reason going to the source is best." 
Good advice!
We've had a SawStop for quite a few years. Just had a trip, finger, no significant damage! Operator error running a very narrow part. This is the 5th trip, 3rd from hands, once from running aluminum, once from chrome plated plastic. No false trips. Cost of trips about $500. Cost of saw about $4K. Saved body parts & medical probably well over $10k. You do the math.


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## woodnthings

*lawsuit award upheld*

This article explains:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item...eletter&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter


Another lawsuit discussion:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item...eletter&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter


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## Steve Neul

woodnthings said:


> This article explains:
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/item...eletter&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter
> 
> 
> Another lawsuit discussion:
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/item...eletter&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter


I guess that will drive up the cost of used saws or maybe create a business for someone willing to smuggle saws in from some non-communist country. They could also fill the hollow spaces of the saw with light bulbs at the same time.


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## ryan50hrl

Long dead thread Steve...


----------



## woodnthings

*This thread has risen from the dead*



ryan50hrl said:


> Long dead thread Steve...



Here's the reason it will never die.....
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/38682/cpsc-drafting-new-tablesaw-regulations


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## ryan50hrl

That article was published 3 years ago....again, it's a long dead topic.


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## woodnthings

*They are missing the boat...*

I have had zero, (0) injuries from the blade contacting any part of my extremities.

I have had about a dozen kickbacks varying from "oops" to "damn, that really hurt." The Saw Stop "safety device" will not prevent a kickback as far as I know. In my opinion, the best way to keep your hands and fingers out of a spinning blade, is to not put them inline with the blade's cutting path, and always keep them 3" or more in front of the blade using push blocks when this is not practical or when cutting larger panels against the fence.

This has worked for me because I believe in Murphy's Law says "If it can go wrong, it will". You always have to think this way to stay safe, regardless of any mechanical devices, electrical devices, or flesh sensing devices. 

I think the lawsuit was a travesty of justice and no fault of the manufacturer, but due solely to the misuse of the saw by the inexperienced and untrained operator. It was a lawyer's Paradise for a percentage of the damages. 

It was quite a few years of table saw operation on my part until I learned anything about kickback, and that came from being "self taught" if you know what I mean.  Now with You Tube videos on the subject there is really no excuse for not understanding the how and why of it. JMO.

There is no rule against bring up an old thread, BTW.:no:
If you think the Government can resist an occasion to regulate anything, you are sadly mistaken.... it will come.


----------



## Larry42

*Does a DIYer need safety devices?*

I run a commercial woodworking shop. Have had a SawStop since shortly after they came out. Almost all of my employees have a great deal of experience. Safety meetings, posted instructions, training the whole thing. I've had the brake tripped 3 times by employees hands. No injuries! Always when trying to take a short cut. Is it possible for the SS system to fail, sure. Not likely though. It is a well make saw, much better than the Unisaw it replaced. If you trip the brake it costs about $70, takes 5 minutes to replace, may or may not damage the blade. But you can still count to 10. What is that worth? We have the industrial 5hp model, not many hobbyist will spring for that model but the cheaper ones use the same technology. Some one asked about using a molding cutter on it. I don't see why it would act any different than with a blade but there would be a longer (very shortly longer) time for the brake to engage. My advice, don't use the so called molding heads, they have an inherently bad design. I've never seen one with chip limiting.


----------



## Al B Thayer

Mr Gass can kiss my ask me what liberty is worth. He's a turd in the woods for all I care. He isn't interested in saving fingers. He wants to monopolize the market with his lead brake. If he was he would make them available through licensing. He would sell it for a price the cheap guys here would shell out money for.

The Lawyer adds are starting to flood the air waves looking for any idiot that got injured using a table saw. What a lowlife piece of crap. Before their finished we will all be cutting wood with a hand saw. If he wants to stump his product that's fine with me. But leave the rest of us out of it and stop trying to take away our liberty to do woodworking any way we like.

Al


----------



## Steve Neul

Al B Thayer said:


> Mr Gass can kiss my ask me what liberty is worth. He's a turd in the woods for all I care. He isn't interested in saving fingers. He wants to monopolize the market with his lead brake. If he was he would make them available through licensing. He would sell it for a price the cheap guys here would shell out money for.
> 
> The Lawyer adds are starting to flood the air waves looking for any idiot that got injured using a table saw. What a lowlife piece of crap. Before their finished we will all be cutting wood with a hand saw. If he wants to stump his product that's fine with me. But leave the rest of us out of it and stop trying to take away our liberty to do woodworking any way we like.
> 
> Al


Some people are just going to hurt themselves no matter what you do. I had to pick up off the floor a guys thumb one time and rush it to the hospital hoping they could re-attach it. They couldn't do it but I tried. Speaking of using a hand saw, this same guy within a month of returning to work cut the tendons off in his hand with a hack saw cutting adjustable shelf standards. The company decided he shouldn't be running power tools and got hurt anyway. 

You know where all this is going. Someone with a woodworking business won't be able to get liability insurance unless they get rid of all their saws and replace them with the saw stop. That should be good to run up the unemployment rate.


----------



## Larry42

I miss the part about running up the unemployment rate?
For several years they tried to get other saw manufacturers to use their system.Yes it would add cost. And Saw Stop probably would have had a significant liability for the design. If your kid was taking woodworking in High School, would you want the school to have Saw Stops? You have the liberty to not be the sharpest tool. The Saw Stop saw we have is better quality through out than the Unisaw it replaced. Part of its higher price goes to pay for the quality, part for the lawyer risk and part because someone had the brains to try and improve a tool that causes a lot of human damage every year. For those that can't understand that, keep using your Sears saw. Risk always has a price!


----------



## wericha

I run a commercial shop as well, albeit a small one. When the time came to upgrade our table saw I evaluated several models, including the saw stop, before choosing Powermatic. The saw stop technology has some benefits, but also has some draw backs. The "safety" feature is more expensive in a number of ways and that expense made it unacceptable to me. I will not deny that employee safety is paramount, I want my employees to go home with all the body parts they came with. We have policies, procedures, and training guidelines to help with that goal.

I was a firefighter for 31 years (17 years as an officer) and know far more about risk/benefit analysis than you ever will. During my time as an officer I only had one of my crew injured, a record I am incredibly proud of. I am the only person in my shop to have ever sustained a significant injury and that was from a jointer. To say that anyone not using a saw stop doesn't understand the risk involved is simply promoting the ignorant irrational fear tactic which has driven much of the saw stop sales.

The machines made by saw stop are good quality, and the safety features have benefit. But your blanket assertions are irrational and demonstrate pure arrogance. You're a poster child for the movement. Best of luck with that.


----------



## Al B Thayer

Larry42 said:


> I miss the part about running up the unemployment rate?
> For several years they tried to get other saw manufacturers to use their system.Yes it would add cost. And Saw Stop probably would have had a significant liability for the design. If your kid was taking woodworking in High School, would you want the school to have Saw Stops? You have the liberty to not be the sharpest tool. The Saw Stop saw we have is better quality through out than the Unisaw it replaced. Part of its higher price goes to pay for the quality, part for the lawyer risk and part because someone had the brains to try and improve a tool that causes a lot of human damage every year. For those that can't understand that, keep using your Sears saw. Risk always has a price!


Your probably not comparing your SawStop to one of the Unisaws made in the USA. I looked at a sawStop two weeks ago and did not see a better built saw. 

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer

Steve Neul said:


> Some people are just going to hurt themselves no matter what you do. I had to pick up off the floor a guys thumb one time and rush it to the hospital hoping they could re-attach it. They couldn't do it but I tried. Speaking of using a hand saw, this same guy within a month of returning to work cut the tendons off in his hand with a hack saw cutting adjustable shelf standards. The company decided he shouldn't be running power tools and got hurt anyway.
> 
> You know where all this is going. Someone with a woodworking business won't be able to get liability insurance unless they get rid of all their saws and replace them with the saw stop. That should be good to run up the unemployment rate.


Yesterday I watched the unskilled person at Lowes cut window blindes to size. She laid the boxed blinds into the machine by laying them on a flat surface. Didn't even have to lay it against a stop or make sure it was straight. She closed the door and pressed the buttons for the size she needed. Seconds later I heard the "saw" cutting the blind to size. When it finished she opened the machine and taped the ends of the box back on and away they went.

THAT'S WHAT THE INDUSTRY IS COMING TO.

Al


----------



## Steve Neul

Al B Thayer said:


> Yesterday I watched the unskilled person at Lowes cut window blindes to size. She laid the boxed blinds into the machine by laying them on a flat surface. Didn't even have to lay it against a stop or make sure it was straight. She closed the door and pressed the buttons for the size she needed. Seconds later I heard the "saw" cutting the blind to size. When it finished she opened the machine and taped the ends of the box back on and away they went.
> 
> THAT'S WHAT THE INDUSTRY IS COMING TO.
> 
> Al


I know. I'm to the point where I'm getting too old to do a lot of the work I'm doing. Right now I'm working toward the point where I can hire employees again and I'm afraid the government is going to fix it to where I can't. I already have two table saws and antique machinery. There is no way I'm going to replace all my equipment because of government regulations.


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## Chamfer

The only way to keep people completely safe from power tools is for them not to use them. Im tired of the dumbification of this country, and the govt trying to enforce it.

Accidents are going to happen, thats just a fact. Ive seen the sawstop vids but I would still be willing to bet that anyone that belly flopped onto a running sawstop would incur some injury.

Like many things in this world that can NOT be dumified (guns for just one example), proper training and education is key.


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## ryan50hrl

If the sawstop didn't work....you can be positive there would be a lawsuit out there somewhere....the technology works and has been proven time and time again. You can keep people safe from blade induced injuries on a table saw by using a sawstop, and to pretend you can't is just sticking your head in the sand.


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## Chamfer

I got nothing against a SS, its a great idea. Gass should be free to market and sell his idea. But pushing for a monopoly is not cool, which is what it seems hes lobbying for.

Selling his idea is one thing, forcing everyone to buy it is another.


----------



## ryan50hrl

If you guys don't think that all kinds of products are lobbied for this way, you should look into the amount of money companies spend on lobbiests. It's a pretty standard mode of operation for almost all companies today....

Anyhow....Sawstops or similar will likely become the standard someday for shops not due to government regulation....but due to insurance costs...


----------



## Chamfer

Oh you dont have to tell me. Im just saying its not right.

Im sure eventually every power tool in the shop with a blade or knife will incorporate this technology.

It will without a doubt come from govt regulation though.


----------



## Steve Neul

A lot of small businesses only have one table saw and everything revolves around the saw. Personally I would hate to be depended on a machine that had electronics in it. I like the idea of a sawstop however what do you do when are pressed to get a job done and the saw stops when it makes contact with wood. It's bound to happen. I've never used anything with electronics that didn't go nuts from time to time. Does anyone know if the brains of the thing can be bypassed and operated like other saws?


----------



## Chamfer

From what Ive read there IS a bypass switch for cutting moist wood. I suppose you could leave it off all the time but then whats the point of buying the saw?


----------



## woodnthings

*the safety ferature can be shut off/bypassed*

I believe that small shops, 25 employees or fewer and non-union shops, and some others will be either non=-compliant and acceptable or compliant depending on any future legislation. After all it's small business that creates the most jobs.... right?

Probably any institution that receives Federal funding will have to comply IF the legislation ever gets that far..... :blink: OSHA will get involved in those cases. If you follow the money as all lawyers do, they will require larger business and shops to comply, and maybe they should out of self preservation. They might even jump start the process of replacing their saws out of fear of a similar Ryobi type lawsuit. I don't know how the Felder and Hammer saws in the $20 K to $30 price range can be made compliant though... it's much easier on a $3000 saw.

I don't think that many woodworkers have been killed by a tablesaw injury, if any, so there is less incentive for the lawyers.


----------



## woodnthings

*there maybe other good reasons*



Chamfer said:


> From what Ive read there IS a bypass switch for cutting moist wood. I suppose you could leave it off all the time but then whats the point of buying the saw?



It may be just a good quality machine with other well thought out features. I've only seen a few in person and they looked very well designed. 

Another reason to buy the saw would be if there are inexperienced helpers, workers, or relatives who may have occasion to use it, while you personally do not want the safety aspect turned on for what ever reason.


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## Steve Neul

Really the only reason I wondered if the thing had a bypass switch is in the event the sawstop feature malfunctioned you could keep working until a repair could be made. I assume it's not a do it your self repair to that saw. I figure you have to wait until a technician from sawstop can work on it.


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## ryan50hrl

Yes, it does have a bypass switch.


----------



## Chamfer

woodnthings said:


> It may be just a good quality machine with other well thought out features. I've only seen a few in person and they looked very well designed.
> 
> Another reason to buy the saw would be if there are inexperienced helpers, workers, or relatives who may have occasion to use it, while you personally do not want the safety aspect turned on for what ever reason.




Ive seen a few in person too, nice machine but not for the price compared to many others out there. 

IMHO novices should be taught like I, and probably many others on here were. Education and technique is paramount.

If you start getting into situations where only 'experienced' workers can use the saw with the bypass you kind of circumvent the whole idea.


----------



## Chamfer

Steve Neul said:


> Really the only reason I wondered if the thing had a bypass switch is in the event the sawstop feature malfunctioned you could keep working until a repair could be made. I assume it's not a do it your self repair to that saw. I figure you have to wait until a technician from sawstop can work on it.




From what I understand no, once the safety has engaged youre stuck until new parts are installed.

Like I said, there is a bypass switch, but its a 'pre' option, not a 'post' option.


----------



## ryan50hrl

No one's advocating that newbies should be thrown to the wolves with no training. The sawstop is the last resort to save a finger or hand. Kickbacks and other injuries still can occur, so training is still incredibly important. There are plenty of examples of career woodworkers in their 50's or 60's that made a mistake that cost them body parts. Many of these guys had NEVER had a mistake on the saw until they did....


----------



## ryan50hrl

Chamfer said:


> From what I understand no, once the safety has engaged youre stuck until new parts are installed.
> 
> Like I said, there is a bypass switch, but its a 'pre' option, not a 'post' option.


Right....but if you are running a shop you'd keep a spare one around. And i'd point out that if you trigger it, you've likely just saved yourself a boat load of money at the ER so you can afford to have a new one overnighted from amazon.


----------



## Chamfer

ryan50hrl said:


> *No one's advocating that newbies should be thrown to the wolves with no training.* The sawstop is the last resort to save a finger or hand. Kickbacks and other injuries still can occur, so training is still incredibly important. There are plenty of examples of career woodworkers in their 50's or 60's that made a mistake that cost them body parts. Many of these guys had NEVER had a mistake on the saw until they did....




No but after proper training they should be 'thrown to the wolves'. Otherwise theyll just think of mistakes as money. Theyll never understand the severity of the situation. Theyll never have proper respect for the tools at hand.

Coddling is for the weak hearted.


----------



## ryan50hrl

Well.....I don't think we're going to agree here. 

I believe sawstop is a no brainer, I see it as the same thing as motorcycle helmets, seat belts, life jackets and air bags.....all of which are designed to protect you as a line of last defense. 

Oh well....I think it's time to go celebrate the packers destruction of the eagles...


----------



## Chamfer

ryan50hrl said:


> I believe sawstop is a no brainer, I see it as the same thing as motorcycle helmets, seat belts, life jackets and air bags.....all of which are designed to protect you as a line of last defense.




All of which are mandated BS that not everyone wants. 

If all of those were optional life would be much simpler. Its when those things are forced on folks that problems arise.

Remember, what what you think is a 'no brainer' others may not. And thats ok. Thinking everyone should share your thinking is along the lines of regimes most Americans dont agree with.


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## ryan50hrl

Yes....seat belts and helmets are what all regimes are mandating these days......


----------



## Chamfer

Wow, I hope your body parts miss blades like your head misses points.


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## ryan50hrl

I haven't missed the point, I don't believe the general public wants safety equipment to be optional. We just have a philosophical difference of opinion here.


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## Chamfer

10-4 on that...a difference indeed.


----------



## Steve Neul

ryan50hrl said:


> I haven't missed the point, I don't believe the general public wants safety equipment to be optional. We just have a philosophical difference of opinion here.


It's not the aversion to safety equipment, it's the cost difference of the sawstop. In more than 40 years being in the business I've only seen one accident and that guy was accident prone anyway. It's just difficult to swallow the cost to prevent something that probably will never happen. 

To change the subject a little I hate most of the safety equipment on tools because they make the tools more dangerous for the person that knows what they are doing. There is no telling how many times I've been injured or at least had a close call because of some safety device.


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> If you guys don't think that all kinds of products are lobbied for this way, you should look into the amount of money companies spend on lobbiests. It's a pretty standard mode of operation for almost all companies today....
> 
> Anyhow....Sawstops or similar will likely become the standard someday for shops not due to government regulation....but due to insurance costs...


Insurance companies don't make law. 

Al


----------



## ryan50hrl

Sure, but they can refuse to insure you if you don't meet their standards...try running a business without insurance.


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> Yes....seat belts and helmets are what all regimes are mandating these days......


Well any company can install a seatbelt. They aren't protected by 70 patents like the SawStop is. Mandates would be more welcome if Grass wasn't trying to scare everyone into excepting his monopoly. The guy is playing the game in the most Unamerican way. I for one an not going to go down without putting up a fight.

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> Sure, but they can refuse to insure you if you don't meet their standards...try running a business without insurance.


It doesn't work that way. We go find the insurance co. we want. It's called LIBERTY.

Al


----------



## ryan50hrl

Al, it does work that way. Call your insurance agent and ask him if they'll insure your business if you remove all the safety gear from your equipment..it's not much different than insurance companies raising rates or canceling policies for things like drunk driving or reckless driving. They take your risk into account when deciding to issue policies. There's already been reports of school districts switching to sawstops because of the insurance savings. It will eventually flow down to small biz shops too.


----------



## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> Al, it does work that way. Call your insurance agent and ask him if they'll insure your business if you remove all the safety gear from your equipment..it's not much different than insurance companies raising rates or canceling policies for things like drunk driving or reckless driving. They take your risk into account when deciding to issue policies. There's already been reports of school districts switching to sawstops because of the insurance savings. It will eventually flow down to small biz shops too.


When you have and run a business of your own you can give me advice. Otherwise best off if you don't try to tell me how it is. It appears I'm the second one here that noticed you have trouble following along with the thread. It gets old when you try to put words in my mouth too. 

Al


----------



## Redrox007

'Merica....


----------



## Al B Thayer

Steve Neul said:


> It's not the aversion to safety equipment, it's the cost difference of the sawstop. In more than 40 years being in the business I've only seen one accident and that guy was accident prone anyway. It's just difficult to swallow the cost to prevent something that probably will never happen.
> 
> To change the subject a little I hate most of the safety equipment on tools because they make the tools more dangerous for the person that knows what they are doing. There is no telling how many times I've been injured or at least had a close call because of some safety device.


I couldn't agree with you more. The money is being spent on the wrong thing. Education is the answer and if we put as much money in a safety program instead of lawyers pockets. We would be far better off. 

People that pontificate on how good and important these safety items are are also the first to pitch and mown about the high prices of tools and how they can't afford them. Yet they keep siding with the losers that insist we need them.

Al


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## ryan50hrl

I have run my own business Al, thanks though...


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## ryan50hrl

Al B Thayer said:


> I couldn't agree with you more. The money is being spent on the wrong thing. Education is the answer and if we put as much money in a safety program instead of lawyers pockets. We would be far better off.
> 
> People that pontificate on how good and important these safety items are are also the first to pitch and mown about the high prices of tools and how they can't afford them. Yet they keep siding with the losers that insist we need them.
> 
> Al



I'll assume this was directed at me...so here goes. 

1st. No one should be suing tool manufacturers for table saw injuries. I'll be the first to agree that table saws are inherently dangerous and short of a gm like cover up of an incorrectly manufactured saw, there shouldn't be lawsuits on tool companies. 

2nd...where I think there is a danger of lawsuits is where shops have chosen to remove the safety equipment from their saws and employees are hurt. Are those lawsuits right, maybe, maybe not, but I see the possibility of lawsuits occurring. 

3rd....I've never once complained about tool price. I've always said tools should be evaluated on their value. If a tool does what you need it to do at a low price, then buy it. If a cheap tool doesn't fit your needs, spend more on one that will. I'm a firm believer because something is painted gold, or built in the USA doesn't make it a better tool for the job, or worthy of more money. The value a tool is worth is directly related to the quality it provides for the job it's doing. The sawstop provides a level of security no other saw on the market offers, and for that I would be more than willing to pay for it. If delta or powermatic offered a similar option, I'd evaluate those systems as well before making a choice.


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## ctwiggs1

Anytime there is something to get emotional about, people will get emotional about it.

I'm sure Sawstop thanks you guys for the free marketing


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## Larry42

To clear things a bit:
When you buy the saw, buy a replacement cartridge ($70.) If you use the saw for dadoes they sell a cartridge designed for the them. Then, if tripped, it takes 5 minutes to change it out and keep going. It may damage the blade but usually not. Note, we've never had a "false trip!" If the machine has tripped you cannot by pass the safety system. The safety has a keyed operating position on the side of the switch. As long as the saw is kept running the anti-safety mode is still engaged. Once you shut the saw off (with the very handy knee switch,) it automatically goes back to safe mode. You can check the electronics (all in the cartridge) by touching the blade while it is stopped and in the off condition. An LED will blink on the switch box. If you don't want anyone to change modes to non-safe, take the key out.
The cartridge design is quite ingenious. When it senses, the electronics dump the stored energy from a large capacitor into a fine wire and a heavy spring releases the aluminum braking block (kind of like a mouse trap) that works on a wedging principle. The blade needs to be within 1/8" and is easily adjusted. At the same time the saw arbor assembly is released and slides down two rods, dropping the blade below the table. To do that requires a pivot point to be designed into the system so the belts stay on. If you go to a dealer you can look at the mechanical system and also look into the cartridge. The housing is clear and you can see the operating principle.


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## ryan50hrl

Larry, 

I think the system has more than proven itself. This has long ago become a cut your finger off to spite your hand thing for the guys that don't want government intervention in anything. They do hate the inventor of sawstop for his going to the government that it wouldn't matter if this was the holy grail of saws given away for 10 bucks each...they would swear it was faulty for some reason anyhow.


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## woodnthings

*reviving an old thread*

For a lively discussion on Saw Stop:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f24/saw-stop-35066/index3/#post351440


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## Steve Neul

Ever notice in recent years when someone is hurt someone is always negligent. Not the person that hurt themselves but always someone else. I think it time to put the blame on the person that hurts themselves instead of laying the blame on the equipment. A beginner running a tablesaw freehand has nobody but himself to blame.


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## ryan50hrl

I'm not saying that the companies are at fault.....users should properly train themselves on how to use saws, but accidents happen, and they're called accidents for a reason. Anyhow, I see sawstop tech much the same as the switch from right tilt saws to left tilt saws, splitters to riving knives, ect. Technology has evolved, it's a great thing.


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## BigJim

I have been cut a time or two and it never was the fault of the saw.


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## Al B Thayer

ryan50hrl said:


> I'll assume this was directed at me...so here goes.
> 
> 1st. No one should be suing tool manufacturers for table saw injuries. I'll be the first to agree that table saws are inherently dangerous and short of a gm like cover up of an incorrectly manufactured saw, there shouldn't be lawsuits on tool companies.
> 
> 2nd...where I think there is a danger of lawsuits is where shops have chosen to remove the safety equipment from their saws and employees are hurt. Are those lawsuits right, maybe, maybe not, but I see the possibility of lawsuits occurring.
> 
> 3rd....I've never once complained about tool price. I've always said tools should be evaluated on their value. If a tool does what you need it to do at a low price, then buy it. If a cheap tool doesn't fit your needs, spend more on one that will. I'm a firm believer because something is painted gold, or built in the USA doesn't make it a better tool for the job, or worthy of more money. The value a tool is worth is directly related to the quality it provides for the job it's doing. The sawstop provides a level of security no other saw on the market offers, and for that I would be more than willing to pay for it. If delta or powermatic offered a similar option, I'd evaluate those systems as well before making a choice.


Could you be more self centered? If I quote your post it's directed at you. Otherwise I don't direct my posts. My post was intended for those in the thread that get it. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer

Larry42 said:


> To clear things a bit:
> When you buy the saw, buy a replacement cartridge ($70.) If you use the saw for dadoes they sell a cartridge designed for the them. Then, if tripped, it takes 5 minutes to change it out and keep going. It may damage the blade but usually not. Note, we've never had a "false trip!" If the machine has tripped you cannot by pass the safety system. The safety has a keyed operating position on the side of the switch. As long as the saw is kept running the anti-safety mode is still engaged. Once you shut the saw off (with the very handy knee switch,) it automatically goes back to safe mode. You can check the electronics (all in the cartridge) by touching the blade while it is stopped and in the off condition. An LED will blink on the switch box. If you don't want anyone to change modes to non-safe, take the key out.
> The cartridge design is quite ingenious. When it senses, the electronics dump the stored energy from a large capacitor into a fine wire and a heavy spring releases the aluminum braking block (kind of like a mouse trap) that works on a wedging principle. The blade needs to be within 1/8" and is easily adjusted. At the same time the saw arbor assembly is released and slides down two rods, dropping the blade below the table. To do that requires a pivot point to be designed into the system so the belts stay on. If you go to a dealer you can look at the mechanical system and also look into the cartridge. The housing is clear and you can see the operating principle.


Thanks for the rundown on the in's and out's of the saw. My beef is not with buyers and users. It's with Gass and all the wonderful lawyers pressing for government mandates.

Al


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## Al B Thayer

Steve Neul said:


> Ever notice in recent years when someone is hurt someone is always negligent. Not the person that hurt themselves but always someone else. I think it time to put the blame on the person that hurts themselves instead of laying the blame on the equipment. A beginner running a tablesaw freehand has nobody but himself to blame.


You got that right. 

Al


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## unclefester

My father in law has an old vintage table saw that the on off switch does not work, fence doesn't hold and the belt slips that he wedges a bar to keep it taught. He asked me to give him a hand cutting some wood.

I cut the cord to the saw and walked away.


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## woodnthings

*man you missed out ...*



unclefester said:


> My father in law has an old vintage table saw that the on off switch does not work, fence doesn't hold and the belt slips that he wedges a bar to keep it taught. He asked me to give him a hand cutting some wood.
> 
> I cut the cord to the saw and walked away.


Sounds like a perfect law suit to me and you could have made millions.....:blink:


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## unclefester

woodnthings said:


> Sounds like a perfect law suit to me and you could have made millions.....:blink:


I turned it into a new kind of SawStop


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## woodnthings

*Great!*

There's more than one way to stop a saw. Just cut the cord. Unplug it first? Naw.... :boat:












unclefester said:


> I turned it into a new kind of SawStop


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## TimPa

new contractor sawstop arrived today.

some saw operations are all but impossible with the oem guard/splitter installed. one is cutting thin stock, the other is cutting dado's. 

when you have to remove the guards to perform these processes, it is nice knowing you have that added protection of the sawstop. 

we have 4 tablesaws in the shop, two run without guards - they are now both sawstops. our workers comp insurance actually gave us a grant to fund the purchase, they liked the idea so much.

yes safe equipement operation/education is still vital. but this is a nice added safety value.


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## ryan50hrl

Very nice...let us know how it works out.


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## Rogerv

Hammer1 said:


> Against Ryobi, (One World Technologies). http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/26939/more-details-on-the-carlos-osorio-tablesaw-lawsuit
> For Ryobi. http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/w...des-with-ryobi-in-tablesaw-liability-lawsuit/
> The liability suits keep coming. http://personalinjurynewswatch.wordpress.com/tag/table-saw-lawsuit/
> 
> The first suit is a travesty of justice. Free handing on an unguarded saw, no fence and force being used by the operator. I guess utter stupidity is rewarded in some courts.


Mr Gass was out for the money he testified in the trial to help them get the verdict. I will guarantee he got paid plus look at all the free promotion that he got to start the company. The injured party was running the saw with the guard removed and the blade at the highest it would go about 2"+ above the material and also trying to freehand rip without using a rip fence.

You break every rule and walk away a millionaire.:sad2:


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## Pineknot_86

I sold custom and factory built cabinetry for about three years. The fellow in the cabinet shop didn't use the guard on the TS as he said more accidents occurred with the guard than without. Why? It gave a false sense of safety. The thing is- don't put your fingers on the blade. BTW, the American Medical Association has gone on record as saying doctor's mistakes are responsible for about 100K deaths a year. Maybe we should do away with doctors?


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## Larry42

We've had a SS for a long time. Had blade tripped twice by a hand, barely a scratch. People complain about the cost of these saws. Very cheap compared to one trip to the emergency room and you get to keep your fingers.
I looked up current prices. These are for the base models, many options are available.
Job site saw on folding wheeled base $1299 1.75hp universal motor (wouldn't be my choice!)
Contractor type $1599, 1.75hp induction motor
Cabinet saw $2299, 1.75hp Too little power for a cabinet saw, get the optional 3hp.
Industrial saw (the model I have with 5hp) 3hp standard, under powered for production work. Options for 5 & 7.5hp. Also available in 3 phase. A decent looking sliding table add on is available, probably worth it if you do much sheet cutting. We have a SCM slider with 9hp (nice saw.) If any of you are working in a production setting a beam saw is handy if you don't run CNC routers.


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## allpurpose

I called Sawstop to ask about fingernails in particular. My last TS injury, just last week in fact went first through my fingernail so I asked if SS could detect current if the fingernail is the part that makes contact before skin. They didn't have an answer and told me I was the first person to ask.. There was some speculation that the blade would probably scuff up the nail then stop soon as it digs in enough to reach flesh.. I have no intention of finding out for sure.


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## Pineknot_86

When I sold custom cabinetry, I was told by the owner that accidents happen with the guards in place. Why? Carelessness on the part of the operator. I never use the guard on my TS. BTW, all my insurance is free with no OOP expenses except for certain medications which have a $10 copay.


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## Steve Neul

allpurpose said:


> I called Sawstop to ask about fingernails in particular. My last TS injury, just last week in fact went first through my fingernail so I asked if SS could detect current if the fingernail is the part that makes contact before skin. They didn't have an answer and told me I was the first person to ask.. There was some speculation that the blade would probably scuff up the nail then stop soon as it digs in enough to reach flesh.. I have no intention of finding out for sure.


What makes the sawstop system work is conducting electricity. This is why they have a switch on it to turn the system off when working with wet wood such as pressure treated. I don't believe your fingernail would conduct electricity enough to make it work.


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