# 10' walnut table ruined by cracked epoxy. please help



## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

I built my first work for a client this past week, a 10 feet by 3.5 feet table top from solid walnut. i put my heart and soul into it and today, when the client came over to help me load it onto the truck, we saw that one of the four large cracks that i had filled with 2 part 5 min epoxy had opened up again. i am not sure if the epoxy has failed or if the wood has moved. at any rate, the client was very angry and demanded i fix this as soon as possible. problem is i don't know what the to do. the table has 5 coats of finish on it. would i have to strip all the finish and re start all over again? can i just stand the cracked area to barewood and apply my epoxy and then re finish the area with the same finish as the rest of the table? please help. i'd appreciate any feedback. 
I've attached some photos.... the crack is on the left side of the table in the forefront of the photo.


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## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

Looks like the wood cracked due to drying. Also looks like the other side is going to do the same thing. I have no good solutions. Others here who have more knowledge may be able to offer more.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there ain't no easy fix*

The best solution is to put butterflys on the top, a common fix for large slabs which are prone to crack. You have made a rookie mistake by not doing this before hand, but some clients will not accept those... too bad, wood moves as it dries and cracks appear in spite of "heart and soul" work ethics.

There are a few other methods that can be used for an almost invisible repair:






On a large slab you can use a saber or jig saw to split the gap, but you'll have to run down the entire length. The blade needs to have the same angle as the crack as well... no job for a novice in my opinion. 

No matter what method you choose, the top will need to be refinished OR leave as... :frown2:


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

There is stress in this crack and it will continue to open. Therefore filling and refinishing isn't the answer. 
I think you will need to rip the board down the crack, join the two edges and re-glue. I think you need to do this on the other board as well. You may need to even add another new board to keep your width. Yes this means a total refinish. Strip the present finish and prep for new finish. 
The boards should have been ripped prior to your original glue-up. 
This is common when we try to use wide lumber.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the crack is on an angle !*



Toolman50 said:


> There is stress in this crack and it will continue to open. Therefore filling and refinishing isn't the answer.
> I think you will need to rip the board down the crack, join the two edges and re-glue. I think you need to do this on the other board as well. You may need to even add another new board to keep your width. Yes this means a total refinish. Strip the present finish and prep for new finish.
> The boards should have been ripped prior to your original glue-up.
> This is common when we try to use wide lumber.



If you rip the board down the crack with the blade vertical, you will have to loose about an inch or two of material, and if the crack is not parallel to the edge, you can't use a tablesaw. A circular saw blade set at the crack's angle, against a straight edge guide OR carefully done following the crack will permit you to rejoin the two pieces with only a kerf's width removed. This may require gluing it several times as shown in the Charles Neil video ...I donno?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You would have had better luck with wood glue than epoxy. At this point the only real fix would be to rip that section of wood out and replace it.


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

OP here,

i have spent all day searching online and trying to figure out what to do. Appreciate all the feed back I got here but it seems like your guys' suggestion is to rip the board apart and re-glue. mind you, this is a 10 feet board and now that the two slabs have been glued together, it weights close 100 or 200 pounds. i am a one man show and ripping the board apart simply is out of question. this in addition the client loves the grain and would not accept me ripping the board apart.

the only thing i can think of is to put a few bow ties/butterflies in the underside of the table on the four cracks (two on either side) I am thinking of putting two to three bow ties on every crack so hopefully in the future the crack won't expand.

what do you guys think about this?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*best approach without a refinish*

Just use your bow ties underneath and live with the cracks. Maybe a clamp across when installing them will close up the gaps a bit ... I donno? You can inject the epoxy into the cracks with a syringe AND suck it down from underneath with small vacuum. You can also tape off the bottom to prevent drips and let it build up from the top. I would use the same epoxy as before to avoid adhesion issues. Tape off the cracked area above to avoid epoxy sticking everywhere.

:smile3:

They need not be made of wood. Here's some stainless steel dog tags that would work:


https://www.amazon.com/Wholesale-Pr...d=1501877305&sr=8-12&keywords=dog+bone+blanks









Brass?
https://www.amazon.com/RMP-Stamping...id=1501877305&sr=8-6&keywords=dog+bone+blanks


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Keep in mind since you are selling the table and it has a defect it will come back to you over and over for touch up and repairs. No matter how difficult it would be it will be cheaper in the long run to make a permanent fix.


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> Just use your bow ties underneath and live with the cracks. Maybe a clamp across when installing them will close up the gaps a bit ... I donno? You can inject the epoxy into the cracks with a syringe AND suck it down from underneath with small vacuum. You can also tape off the bottom to prevent drips and let it build up from the top. I would use the same epoxy as before to avoid adhesion issues. Tape off the cracked area above to avoid epoxy sticking everywhere.
> 
> :smile3:
> 
> ...


was gonna do all that .... put the bowties underneath, fill the gap with epoxy and then let it dry and then re finish the sucker...



should i strip the whole finish off or can i get away with just the area adjacent to the crack? if i apply the same finishing schedule, will there be a visible different in the two different areas' finishes?


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Maybe you could accentuate the crack to make it a focal point

This stuff can make a crack look pretty cool, just make sure it is done cracking

http://stonecoatcountertops.com/


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Keep in mind since you are selling the table and it has a defect it will come back to you over and over for touch up and repairs. No matter how difficult it would be it will be cheaper in the long run to make a permanent fix.


steve, problem is by cutting the ends, i'd lose close to 4 feet of the material so my 10' table is now 6.. client wants a 10' so if putting bowties is gonna work, i'd rather do that. if i had the option of cutting off the cracked area, id do it in a heartbeat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Shoichi said:


> steve, problem is by cutting the ends, i'd lose close to 4 feet of the material so my 10' table is now 6.. client wants a 10' so if putting bowties is gonna work, i'd rather do that. if i had the option of cutting off the cracked area, id do it in a heartbeat.


I wasn't suggesting cutting the length, I was suggesting ripping 2-3 inches down the middle and adding that much wood back in. I realize the people like that grain but they also won't like the joint breaking loose every time the weather changes.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You need to bow tie any crack or potential cracks. Bow tie and back fill with gorilla glue or titebond epoxy with a large syringe....

You may need to clean a bit before refilling..


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

That is a very large slab of solid wood. It is also highly figured. Two strikes against you right from the beginning. This was the original reason for using figured veneers in construction. Solid wood is beautiful in the style of George Nakashima but construction practices must be perfect to pull it off. Did you use a moisture meter on the raw walnut before construction? I'm guessing the moisture content could be too high. Also is that solid wood banding on the end grain of the table glued on solid? If so you are restricting grain movement across the grain on a very wide very thick piece of lumber. Also a no no that would cause splitting. Sorry, on closer inspection I see there is no edge banding it was just the lighting that made it look that way.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Keep in mind since you are selling the table and it has a defect it will come back to you over and over for touch up and repairs. No matter how difficult it would be it will be cheaper in the long run to make a permanent fix.


Anything less will be a short-term fix and there goes your referrals.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Toolman50 said:


> Anything less will be a short-term fix and there goes your referrals.


If he fixes and does preventive fixes he will be alright.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

*#1 learn your wood reactions*

Rick...THANKS...I see one that knows where to start from all these responses...I believe one other asked....starting moisture content. This is the most important part of ANY build....all levels can be dealt with properly BUT each has it's own build practice.

This was /is my first question to any I respond to on this site with this situation....
1)WHAT was the lumber MC??? VERY, VERY, VERY common rookie mistake BUT I see many seasoned "woodworkers" make this also...LACK of knowledge has sunk many ships!!!!
2) next would be questions on the build practices used. Very common to see cross grained woods glued solid.
3) what was the existing wood looking like?....cracks, warps, twists, etc. I see from photo and OP's statement there was a crack (or 2, bookmatch) AND it was filled with epoxy finish "hoping" to glue together. Epoxy finishes have it's limits and is a great filler BUT not designed as a filler "glue".

Bowties are your best bet IF the client will accept them as this is definitely different from your original agreement....and use epoxy as a filler in the gap to smooth top flat again.

There were many good ideas BUT IF you don't correct the MC issue it's ALL a waste of time, as time will change the MC again.

That's a beautiful table and can be salvaged with minimals BUT needs to be in a rustic style (exposed cracks) ... learn your wood movements and design accordingly.

Show us a few more pics from differ angles....the wood is pretty!!!


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

a couple off cuts of the two slabs i used for the table have formed a bent on them. does this mean anything?

bought a moisture meter to see how dry the walnut slabs are. i am fairly convinced now that the saw mill guy sold me wood that weren't fully/propelry dried but i am gonna wait till i use the MC meter to confirm my suspicion. bought the MMD4E model of the moisture meter. supposed to be good. 

anyone know if i can get an accurate reading off of a wood board that's been finished? i finished my walnut with equal parts of blo/raw tun oil and poly... 5 coats total... 

thanks everyone for your help and comments so far.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

At 19.8% moisture content it's no wonder you are having trouble. For what you are doing with that large slabs it should have been closer to 8%. Personally I think you would be better in the long run to start over. The wood is shrinking a lot and is why it split down the middle in order to releave the pressure. Chances are it will split again somewhere else. 

With that pin type moisture content meter you can get an accurate enough reading on it whether it is finished or not. What is does is measure how electricity conducts between the two pins. The more water the wood has in it the more it conducts. Try the thing on your arm and it will let you know how it works quick.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> At 19.8% moisture content it's no wonder you are having trouble. For what you are doing with that large slabs it should have been closer to 8%. Personally I think you would be better in the long run to start over. The wood is shrinking a lot and is why it split down the middle in order to releave the pressure. Chances are it will split again somewhere else.


+1: this is pretty much what I said in pin #3 above. Top is in stress. Will continue. Rip table, remove split area, add new boards to keep width and refinish. 
Yes it's a bitch (almost a do-over) and there goes your profit but it will be right when it leaves your shop.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> +1: this is pretty much what I said in pin #3 above. Top is in stress. Will continue. Rip table, remove split area, add new boards to keep width and refinish.
> Yes it's a bitch (almost a do-over) and there goes your profit but it will be right when it leaves your shop.


Knowing the wood is still green I don't see any point of making any repair on the top. If the top drys without any further problems then a repair could be considered and used on another table. It might take a couple years before it gets there.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What does the meter say?*



Steve Neul said:


> Knowing the wood is still green I don't see any point of making any repair on the top. If the top drys without any further problems then a repair could be considered and used on another table. It might take a couple years before it gets there.


Is this the actual reading, or is it just a random photo? 19.8 is about twice what it should be, if an actual reading. From the saw mill's perspective, it's difficult to dry a large slab like that without some checking.

The other question I haven't seen asked ... Did you apply finish to both sides or just the top? If so, that will contribute to uneven drying and possibly cupping of the slabs.

This whole issue is kinda in the hands of the customer as to whether he can live with the cracks as a "natural" flaw or does he want a perfect surface? Rick Mosher has a lot of experience in this.
It may be possible at this point to remove the top, strip it, rip it down the center to make it lighter and THEN have it KILN dried...?
This may prevent further movement, but the existing cracks can be repaired as suggested using bow ties if OK'd by the client.

A final solution of course, is to purchase a new set of slabs, kiln dry them and then proceed with the project. Who purchased the slabs? Who OK'd the grain for the purchase? Was the client involved in any of this process? I don't know who bears any financial responsibility in this situation or if it can be shared between the client, the mill and yourself IF a replacement is necessary.


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

My apologies if I confused some of you by the previous photo of the moisture reader. That was just a photo off of the internet to show the type of moisture reader i had purchased. 



So I got the reader and took about 20 readings off of the table and the two off cuts. I also took readings of the 2 by 4s and the ceiling joists in the house where i was working on the table. I took the reading off of the 2x4s and 2x10s to see how 'wet' those are in the house.


as can be seen, the table seems to be dry, doesn't it? over 80% of all the readings were under 10% both on the off cuts and also on the table. I took most of the readings from the end grain portions of the table.


One more fact thing that I need to mention is that the humidity in my city, Toronto, was VERY high in the week I was working not he table. it actually rained almost non stop on the last two days. 

I really appreciate your guys' help here. I truly am grateful. for all the help and suggestions.


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## Shoichi (Jan 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> The other question I haven't seen asked ... Did you apply finish to both sides or just the top? If so, that will contribute to uneven drying and possibly cupping of the slabs.
> 
> A final solution of course, is to purchase a new set of slabs, kiln dry them and then proceed with the project. Who purchased the slabs? Who OK'd the grain for the purchase? Was the client involved in any of this process? I don't know who bears any financial responsibility in this situation or if it can be shared between the client, the mill and yourself IF a replacement is necessary.



Yes finish was applied to both sides. The top got 5 coats and the bottom got 2 coats. 

I purchased the slabs and my contract stated I'd get paid once the table was delivered. At this point i am not really concerned about money, i just want to deliver a great product to the customer. I am sure i'll get my money once I give them the table they have asked for.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Well, that throws a whole different light on this issue ...*

Apparently the wood is not green/wet!:smile3:
So, we are back to restraining the cracks with bow ties. I more cracks were to appear then they would have to be delt with at that time. IF the client understands that some things like possible future cracks are beyond your or their control, that would be best. It's the force of nature and they can add character OR be a point of contention, depending on you point of view.

If you get the inlay kit posted by Rebelworks and get proficient using it, then you are on the way to make future repairs as needed ..... after you repair the current ones.:smile3:


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

That's Great!!!! BUT I don't think you can get correct metering spanning the gaps.....I measures resistance/moisture between the pins, the longer the loop the less resistance I would think. For safety check one side or the other and see if it changes from spanning the gap.....now 10.5 and 6.4 is a large difference.... isn't stable numbers and those are outer edges. Cut the scrap in half (crosscut) and check the MC...this will be what the center/core is actually like. I'd say it's higher in the core, the ends will dry first/faster so the #'s will be lower until totally stable.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Back when Frank Paxton Lumber was in Ft Worth, they had free cards printed up that you could grab and it explained to potential customers that solid wood moves, and when it moves it may crack, warp or twist, and there was nothing a human being could do, nature has more power then any man

I wish I had some of them


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

At this point getting an accurate moisture reading is going to be difficult. The cut off parts will not give a good answer as they have had the opportunity to further dry. Thick slabs will have a gradient from out side to center. To be ready to use they need to have a consistent reading all the way through. Even with a good kiln schedule it takes a long time, translate expensive, to get it right. A cheap meter like you bought will give you and idea but will not be very accurate. You will need to spend over $200 for a good meter. In most parts of the country you should be shooting for 6.5%. T Tim has it right about moisture issues. Learn your materials before you make more expensive mistakes. Read "Understanding Wood" by Hoadley. The book is cheap compared to making the mistakes. Another excellent book is "The Wood Doctor's Rx" by E.M Wengert.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

If indeed the wood is found to have a high moisture content; the drying time will be delayed now that it's been finished with 5 coats on top and 2 coats on bottom. This will trap the moisture to some degree and keep the wood from air drying.


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## CabTiger (Aug 8, 2017)

Shoichi said:


> woodnthings said:
> 
> 
> > The other question I haven't seen asked ... Did you apply finish to both sides or just the top? If so, that will contribute to uneven drying and possibly cupping of the slabs.
> ...


If I were in your shoes, I would try to source more walnut and start over. Clean slate, a defacto new project in which you won't duplicate mistakes and will deliver the product on which you want to have your name.

The way I see it, you break even on this project and still have 2 beautiful slabs of walnut that are paid for. Money in the bank for your next project.


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## IowaDave (May 21, 2015)

I have always applied an equal # of coats of finish to all sides of a project, with the idea that unequal coatings could lead to unequal absorption/release of moisture and possible cupping or splitting. While I don't think that the unequal finish would likely lead to the crack that you are battling now...I think it may possibly lead to unwanted cupping or warping later on. What do others think about that possibility?


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I have to agree with starting over. You have no way of knowing what the internal moisture levels are. The pin meter is just measuring the surface and for sure you aren't using it correctly, you can't measure across a gap! 
When you get your new slabs, take a cut where you will be fitting them together. Measure the moisture at the center of the wood (at least 2" in from what had been the outside) then the surface. If they are the same and around 6.5% you are in luck. Measuring near the end of the slabs will not tell you much of value even if you take the reading at the center of the slab. Did your meter come with a table showing the variations based on the species so you can adjust to get a better reading?


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## gj13us (Apr 19, 2016)

Cracks and bowties vs. the client's utopian vision of a perfectly smooth, perfectly grained version of nature's ideal. 

I'm not in the business of making and selling furniture, but along with all the advice on how to handle the present situation, maybe I can add: tell future clients that, in wood, perfection is often found in the imperfection. 

Now back to reality---way back when I handled customer complaints for a major department store that sold a lot of leather furniture, we were instructed to tell customers that called in about imperfections in their $3,000 leather sofas (which would be about $5,612 today) that the imperfections were part of the natural beauty of leather, and marks often came from when the cow scraped against barbed wire fences, etc. 

I refunded a lot of money in those days. arty:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Catpower said:


> Back when Frank Paxton Lumber was in Ft Worth, they had free cards printed up that you could grab and it explained to potential customers that solid wood moves, and when it moves it may crack, warp or twist, and there was nothing a human being could do, nature has more power then any man
> 
> I wish I had some of them


We use Paxton Lumber I'll see if the cards are still available...


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