# Using a hand plane vs. sanding, cedar planks



## ericc22

Greetings,

I am making a picnic table out of cedar. All the cuts are done and I am preparing it for sanding.

I hate sanding. I love hand planes!

Caveat - I just started using planes and am not particularly good with them. But I really enjoy using them. I enjoy planing for the sake of planing and find it hard to walk past one without using it!

I understand the right plane can be used in lieu of sanding and that when I am good, it might be a more effective tool then an orbital sander and hand sanding. (Hard to believe for a newbie....)

Do you think it is practical for me to use a bench plane to get the cedar planks ready for finish? Or at a minimum, to get them to the point they need just a final sanding? The boards do have gauges and dings in them.

If so, what plane would you recommend? I have a small block plane and a low-angle smoothing plane. I assume I'd need a larger plane, maybe a 4 1/2? Would this then be a good set for this? Would I need something else? (I would love an excuse to buy another plane....)

Curious for your opinions. I'd love to ditch the sanding, trading an activity I don't like for one I love.


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## gideon

my understanding is that cedar has silicate in it which will dull blades and edges pretty quickly. 

maybe others can elaborate more.


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## Dave Paine

ericc22 said:


> If so, what plane would you recommend? I have a small block plane and a low-angle smoothing plane. I assume I'd need a larger plane, maybe a 4 1/2? Would this then be a good set for this? Would I need something else? (I would love an excuse to buy another plane....)
> 
> Curious for your opinions. I'd love to ditch the sanding, trading an activity I don't like for one I love.


Eric, good to see progress on the bench.

I think many people also hate sanding. I am in the group. I have found my Random Orbit Sander to be the best sanding tool.

If you want to prepare the planks, I would use a scraper rather than bench style plane.

I am presuming you are looking to smooth the surface rather than remove a lot of material.

Scrapers are not expensive. This is a reference link.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32670&cat=1,310,41069

Note the angle and curving the scraper blade.

If you want the scraper to be held in a plane to avoid hand cramp, these are available.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=68491&cat=1,41182

If you purchase a scraper or scraper plane, I recommend also purchasing a burnisher. Not expensive. The key to scraping is the slight edge created by burnishing. This needs to be re-applied as the scraper dulls.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32643&cat=1,310,41070

If you use a bench plane or scraper, you need to look at the grain orientation to minimize tearout. You want to plane or scrape with the grain not against the grain.


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## Wrangler02

I have used a hand plane to prepare rough cut cedar. The irons do get dull quicker than when planing some other woods; but it's not a show stopper. I use my number 5 planes. One is set for a course cut, the other is set up as a smoother, with a narrow mouth and fine cut. The result is a smooth, shiny surface. The smell that permeates the shop is incredible!!!

And what Dave said about grain direction.


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## firemedic

Wrangler said:


> I have used a hand plane to prepare rough cut cedar. The irons do get dull quicker than when planing some other woods; but it's not a show stopper. I use my number 5 planes. One is set for a course cut, the other is set up as a smoother, with a narrow mouth and fine cut. The result is a smooth, shiny surface. The smell that permeates the shop is incredible!!!
> 
> And what Dave said about grain direction.


As Gideon points out, juniper can be tough on edges.

Wrangler is dead on the money if you ask me. I'd suggest the plane with the heavier cut also have an exaggerated camber and open mouth as well. 

If you only have one jack plane you can buy a buck bros brand iron from home depot and grind a heavy camber on it. They aren't the best quality irons but it's only for rough cutting. It will act as a scrub plane so work the boards at an angle.

Follow up using an iron with a gentle camber and you're good to go. 

I'm afraid you will get really tired really fast trying to scrape all of that lumber.


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## Wrangler02

I didn't use a scrub plane on my last project with cedar, because I get way more tear out than I wanted to deal with. I just adjusted the #5 to make a slim 1/16" cut and kept moving around to follow the grain. 

The native Minnesota Red Cedar that I used had lots of knots and the wildest grain that you can imagine. I resaw the cedar and finish it to 3/8" for drawer bottoms. Did I say that I really like the smell?


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## ericc22

OK everyone, thanks so much for the advice.

I am going to get the scraper - thanks for that idea Dave. For the price seems like a good thing to have.

I have gone back and forth on sanding vs. planing. Let's just say I've learned a lot these past few days about cedar - it is quite different then the soft pine I am used to! 

I've been working with my low-angle jack plane, which I believe is equivalent to a #5? I've also been studying with my new BFF, Christopher Schwarz, going through his videos. 

I've gotten better but I don't think good enough to commit to planing the cedar planks. Knots are really hard for me - the area around them doesn't look so good. I am playing with adjusting the plane but haven't figured the right combo out yet. I am also really new to sharpening and adjusting so lots to learn.

So I figure I'll try the scraper, keep trying to get the feel of the low-angle smoothing plane, and hopefully find a neighbor who has a regular 5 to borrow. Then I'll decide on whether to commit to the planes. I am figuring I'll stick with planing - this is an outside table that will be catching acorns and footballs so no need to go crazy I suppose....

All ongoing feedback is most welcome!


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## gideon

Wrangler said:


> I have used a hand plane to prepare rough cut cedar. The irons do get dull quicker than when planing some other woods; but it's not a show stopper. I use my number 5 planes. One is set for a course cut, the other is set up as a smoother, with a narrow mouth and fine cut. The result is a smooth, shiny surface. The smell that permeates the shop is incredible!!!
> 
> And what Dave said about grain direction.



This is how I have my 5's set up - one for more aggressive passes and the other for smoothing it out. From there, depending on how clean it is, I might be able to go with 180 or 220 on a ROS.

I'm still sketchy on knots too. The grain changes always lead to some bit of tear out.


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## ericc22

Here is a pic of the types of gauges I get around the knots. Also as an FYI, these are the shavings I am getting. 

Any opinions?

Eric


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## Wrangler02

I'll start by saying that I need another plane like I need another hole in my head; but I really want a low angle bevel up Jack. I recently got a Veritas low angle block plane with tote and knob. With the quick ability to adjust the mouth opening, a variety of cutters ground to different angles, and the toothed blade, I can handle just about any grain. A Jack would give me the same flexibility in a longer version. I'm saving my coins.


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## gideon

yeah, that happens with knots.. I try to avoid areas where the grain changes radically and hit them with an ROS instead. 

What kind of plane are you using? If a 4 or 5, looks like you need to adjust the lateral for wider blade contact with the surface. Optimally, the shavings should be about the width of the iron.


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## ericc22

*How to plane a 7 foot board - practical??*

OK, spent a good chunk of time learning about planes, and working on some sample cedar planks.

Definitely have the plane tuned better. This shows the shavings I am getting now and the boards are looking pretty good to me. 

I have a low-angle Jack plane which I am very happy with. As a beginner it simplifies the controls and I finally understand setup well enough to understand bevels and angles. So I am going to get a 50 degree blade so I can go at 62 degrees. This way I can go low angle and high angle. (I tried planing some cherry wood today and got not so far with the low angle cutter.) I can also get a scraper blade for my plane. The hand plane light bulb finally went off.... I'll test those to see if it helps me to prep the boards before finishing.

Anyway, I digress. I feel comfortable planing the cedar boards now. (Thanks everyone!) But.... I have no clue how I am going to manage to hand plane a 7 foot board. Is this unrealistic? I am getting more comfortable with boards that are a foot or two, but planing the 7 footer was very awkward. 

All feedback is most appreciated!

Eric


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## Wrangler02

gideon said:


> yeah, that happens with knots.. I try to avoid areas where the grain changes radically and hit them with an ROS instead.


What's a ROS? I'm sure I don't have one of those in my shop.


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## Wrangler02

ericc22 said:


> Anyway, I digress. I feel comfortable planing the cedar boards now. (Thanks everyone!) But.... I have no clue how I am going to manage to hand plane a 7 foot board. Is this unrealistic? I am getting more comfortable with boards that are a foot or two, but planing the 7 footer was very awkward.
> 
> All feedback is most appreciated!
> 
> Eric


Just clamp the long board to your bench top and work the board by walking from one end to the other; or work it in 2' segments, overlapping as you go. Whatever turns your crank!


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## ericc22

Wrangler said:


> Just clamp the long board to your bench top and work the board by walking from one end to the other; or work it in 2' segments, overlapping as you go. Whatever turns your crank!


Must be me, but I couldn't walk from one end to the other - didn't get enough momentum. I kind of had to run. Pretty awkward!

I was thinking of trying it in 2' segments but I wasn't able to end at 2', and restart cleanly. I'll try that again.

Thanks!


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## Wrangler02

Try holding the plane at an angle so it cuts with a bit of skew. I don't believe there is a right or wrong; but Keep trying different approaches until you find what works for you. But then again, I'm one that has to learn everything the hard way.


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## Tradie

*plane vs sander*

Hi i spent a good few years manufacturing bespoke kitchens. taking the sawn boards though to spray laquering so i have considerable experience. use a number 2 smoothing plane honed very well and regularly, when approaching knots using the place in a circular motion in short strokes. a stanley push scraper is also a good tool. definatley not any kind of sander.

hope this is helpful


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## ericc22

Tradie said:


> Hi i spent a good few years manufacturing bespoke kitchens. taking the sawn boards though to spray laquering so i have considerable experience. use a number 2 smoothing plane honed very well and regularly, when approaching knots using the place in a circular motion in short strokes. a stanley push scraper is also a good tool. definatley not any kind of sander.
> 
> hope this is helpful


Thanks. I only have a low-angle jack, but it seems to smooth pretty well. 

Those knots are intimidating! I'll work on the circular motion.


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## firemedic

You might try taking lighter curls too, your curls look a bit heavy for a finish pass.

Use wax or topcote on the sole of the plane to reduce friction. *that's a big one*

Put a sight camber on the iron.

And again I'm back to saying a scrub pane is the way to go. Even set very lightly - do two boards side by side and at a slight angle across the boards. You will get some tear-out from a scrub plane but only minimal with light cuts. With a scrub though even light cuts are removing far more material than a jack or smoother. When it comes to hand tooling, minimal energy for fastest/best results is the name of the game. After the scrub plane a few passes with jack (not ideal but whose paying attention?) and you reached the same goal in half the time.


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## ericc22

I really like the idea of going at a slight angle across 2 boards. I guess I need the scrub plane though to do this. With my plane, any time I go across the grain I destroy the Cedar and it becomes hard to clean up. I am sure this is a user problem so I'll keep trying but first step seems to be getting the right tool to go with the low-angle jack plane.

Thanks!



firemedic said:


> You might try taking lighter curls too, your curls look a bit heavy for a finish pass.
> 
> Use wax or topcote on the sole of the plane to reduce friction. *that's a big one*
> 
> Put a sight camber on the iron.
> 
> And again I'm back to saying a scrub pane is the way to go. Even set very lightly - do two boards side by side and at a slight angle across the boards. You will get some tear-out from a scrub plane but only minimal with light cuts. With a scrub though even light cuts are removing far more material than a jack or smoother. When it comes to hand tooling, minimal energy for fastest/best results is the name of the game. After the scrub plane a few passes with jack (not ideal but whose paying attention?) and you reached the same goal in half the time.


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## firemedic

The picture shows a jack plane with a heavily cambered iron and an open mouth. Ignore the lose iron that's for a wooden scrub.

What I'm getting at is that you don't have to have a "scrub" plane like the Stanley or LN 40 to get the work done. Buy a $20 buck brother crap plane from Depot, file out the mouth and add a heavy camber to the iron. Scrubbing is rough work - the plane can be rough too.


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## firemedic

This is a rather large rosewood billet and the sequence of steps to go from rough to finished. 

Scrub then second to last is after a jointer and finally after a 4-1/2 smoother. 

Rosewood is a lot tougher than cedar and has some tricky grain changes on slabs that size. 

It might have taken 10 min to get there.


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## ericc22

Firemedic - thank you! Very inspiring and instructive. I'll give it a try!


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## ericc22

Just wanted to post an end note to this, to let a future reader know what worked for me....

Let's just say I've learned a lot about hand planing with these cedar boards.... Fortunately, I attended a Lie-Nielsen hand tool event and brought a sample of my boards with me. Here is the process they gave me, that works for me, given that I own just one plane - a low angle jack:
1. start with a toothed blade set for rough cutting
2. plane diagonal, both directions, probably about 4 times, twice in both directions
3. put standard blade back in plane and set it to just shave off the tops of the grooves left by the toothed blade
4. if the board is particularly gnarly, finish with the orbital sander
5. if the board is fairly clean, plane to finish

Not only have I learned quite a bit about planes, I've learned a lot about cedar:
1. if the run has lots of knots, punt. Even the Lie-Nielsen experts recommended the orbital for these sections
2. when the grain pattern is crazy, which is about half the time, I've been most successful with my small block plane. I just use the plane to follow the grain pattern. Kind of like driving a car on a track! 
3. if there are just a few knots I hit them first with the block plane to smooth them out
4. knots and blades don't get along - really have to get great with sharpening! I did learn how to feel a blade to know when to sharpen thanks to the LN people

Other then that, I've learned to not bother trying to fix a board with a lot of wind! I had a few of those. For those I just remind myself that this is a picnic table and good enough is good enough. I hit it with the orbital and move on. 

It's been lots of fun! 

Now, to finish this and then on the next project, figure out how to get boards into square....

Thanks!

Eric


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## Dave Paine

Eric, a very nice end note. :thumbsup:

I always like a project where I learn something. It seems like you have learned a lot.

I envy your time with the LN folks. That would have been very interesting.


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## Wema826

Wrangler said:


> I resaw the cedar and finish it to 3/8" for drawer bottoms. Did I say that I really like the smell?


Im going to have to start doing this. I dont know why i havent been, I have a cedar mill 7 miles down the road from me, and i have been using poplar for my drawer bottoms.:blink:


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