# Sears 113.298762 overpriced?



## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

My little bench top TS died on me so I decided to get a nicer saw. I came across this one (http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/tls/2364563179.html) on CL but I think it's way over priced.

Can someone please tell me what's a fair price for this saw? I'm concerned about its age, no warranty and it being heavily used since it's in a shop.

If I should pass on this one, what model should I get that's in the $500-600 price range?

I was looking at the PCB270TS and the Rigid R4512.

Thanks!


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## thehunter (Oct 27, 2010)

thats way too much for that saw. you could get a nice used cabinet saw for that price


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

It really depends upon just how good his additions are. It is hard to believe that a fence would cost $1,000. 

If the accessories prove to be worth it I would offer $$500 and see what he says.

George


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I'd suggest you pass on it. It's over priced, if I was looking I might pay 400 for it.

For your budget I'd suggest a cab or hybrid... I see plenty delta cab saws on CL down here for 400-600.

Make the improvements for yourself. Most cab saws have at least a decent fence and if not those go for pretty cheap too.

~tom


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Capitalism at it's finest. I'd offer $275.


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## HugeCow inc. (Jun 12, 2010)

i have that same saw, thats awesome, anywho offer $200 , he will say no but leave your phone number for when he changes his mind


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for all of the feed back :smile:

I thought he was asking too much too.

I offered $300 and he replied:

_"Nope.... I have at least 3 other people interested at much higher offers"_

I could not find much info on the fence, but I have a hard time believing someone would actually put a thousand dollar fence on a contractor saw.

I found a couple of other Sears saws that are similar in age and model without the "extras". Since these saws are 15+ years of age, I'm concerned about the motor. What's the life expectancy of them?

I'm thinking it would be better to purchase a new TS in the 500-600 price range than to pay 300-400 for an old used Sears contractor saw. Or are they truley made that much better than the newer models?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I frequently read that the newer Craftsman tools aren't made like they used to be, and believe it to be true of some, but having purchased and disassembled at least 6 old Cman saws from the 70s & 80s...5 for parts, 1 for a refurb project, and owning a new 2005 Cman 22124 hybrid, it's my opinion that the design of the newer 22124 is superior, the fence vastly superior, and the build quality of that particular saw is at least as good as the old Emerson made saws. In use, my 22124 was considerably nicer to use than the refurbed 113.298762 with a Vega fence....more power, more accurate, far more stable, etc. My experience with the 22124 doesn't really pertain to the newer 21833, and isn't 100% applicable to a new 22116 (also by Steel City/Orion), but it does challenge the oft-quoted blanket statement that they're not made like they used to be. The 14 amp Emerson motors were good, but like all motors can run out of steam if worked hard....not hard to replace though.

That said, I think you're offer of $300 was very reasonable, and I'll reiterate that the seller is way high for his tricked out Emerson contractor saw. If they paid $1k for a TS fence, IMO they over paid. General International now owns Excaliber....as far as I can tell they no longer offer the Excaliber table saw fence, though it is available as a band saw fence. I strongly suspect if they could get $1000 for the TS version that they'd still be selling it. Extras like those found on this saw are nice if you want them, and can add some resale value, but he's simply asking too much IMHO.

A good used saw is still likely to be where the best bang for the buck is, but I don't think it's with this particular used saw. There are pros and cons to both new and used saws...both can be made to perform well. Good luck!


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## Woodworkingkid (Jan 8, 2011)

I think he may of added an extra zero to the cost of the fence. If the add is still posted in a week you should call him. Ask about all yhe other offers and then try 300 again. Since it sounds like he is moving that means that he will have a dead line on when to get rid of it.I also think he believes his tools are worth more than they really are because I was looking at the cl ad you posted and searched his ads and he had many over priced tools such as a jet 14 band saw for 600 that's 15 years old and many other over priced items. He basically thinks that are worth how much he bought them for.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

thehunter said:


> thats way too much for that saw. you could get a nice used cabinet saw for that price


I'd agree with that hell I sold my 4 year old Shopfox cabinet saw with long rails for $800, it sold on the first call a few hours after posted.




firemedic said:


> I'd suggest you pass on it. It's over priced, if I was looking I might pay 400 for it.
> 
> For your budget I'd suggest a cab or hybrid... I see plenty delta cab saws on CL down here for 400-600.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen that many where have you seen them? On CL? However, yes that would be the best way. I don't think you went Fence shopping lately Tom. they start at $350-$400 and go up from there. I don't consider that cheap especially if his budget is $400-$600 total.



Woodworkingkid said:


> I think he may of added an extra zero to the cost of the fence. If the add is still posted in a week you should call him. Ask about all yhe other offers and then try 300 again. Since it sounds like he is moving that means that he will have a dead line on when to get rid of it.I also think he believes his tools are worth more than they really are because I was looking at the cl ad you posted and searched his ads and he had many over priced tools such as a jet 14 band saw for 600 that's 15 years old and many other over priced items. He basically thinks that are worth how much he bought them for.


A lot of people think that there tools are worth more then they are. However that changes when they are the buyer.:laughing:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

rrbrown said:


> I haven't seen that many where have you seen them? On CL? However, yes that would be the best way. I don't think you went Fence shopping lately Tom. they start at $350-$400 and go up from there. I don't consider that cheap especially if his budget is $400-$600 total.


I religiously check CL and eBay in the tristate area. I see a decent cab saw pop up every 3-5 weeks. 

As for fences, I've seen a couple biese clones like the shop fox pop up for 2-3 bills.

I picked up a unifence for $100... 

You want me to start including you in the "send this listing to a friend?" 

~tom


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

firemedic said:


> I religiously check CL and eBay in the tristate area. I see a decent cab saw pop up every 3-5 weeks.
> 
> As for fences, I've seen a couple biese clones like the shop fox pop up for 2-3 bills.
> 
> ...


No that's OK, I wasn't thinking used for the fence my mistake.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

I want to thank everyone again for all of the input. It is much appreciated.

Unfortunately, my head is now swimming with all of the new and used saws I have come across since originally posting this thread.

I'm still leary about purchasing a saw that is one to two decades old and if I may, I would like to ask you all (yea, Im a Virginian) about a couple of other saws.

I see Lowes can get the Steel City 35990C for $833 delivered and I came across a used General International 50-185 for $500.00 firm. At this time, I don't know if the GI saw has the 30" or 52" rails or if it's left or right tilt. Which one makes more since? I have reservations about the split rail on the Steel City but it has a five year warranty.

If I had any hair to pull out, I would!


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The GI 50-185 is left tilt, and was available with 30" rip or 52" rip. It has an excellent Biesemeyer clone fence, solid cast iron wings, and a heavy duty cast iron miter gauge. It's a good example of a contractor saw...very similar to the PM64a and Grizzly G0576, but it still suffers from the design drawbacks of a saw with this design and an outboard motor...the extra space, longer belt, dust collection, lifting hazard when tilted, heeling, and are hard to align. It retailed for ~ $700-$780 depending on the fence length, so $500 might be a little steep too depending on what extras are included if any (blades, mobile base, router table, inserts, etc). I had mine for two years and sold it for $495 in mint condition with a mobile base, router table, aux fence, link belt, two blades, dust enclosure, plus the price included delivery and setup in their basement. 










The Steel City 35990C is fairly new out...Amazon had a sale on them for ~ $600 shipped a couple of months ago. It's a little unproven to suggest sinking $833 into....at that price, I'd be eye balling more proven saws like the Grizzly G0715P, Craftsman 22116 (by Steel City/Orion....goes on sale in the low $700's), the similar Steel City 35925, or the Jet Proshop 708480K or 708482K. 

The key here is patience....unless you need the saw right now, as you wait for the right deal and to make a decision, you're learning a lot about saws and are improving your chances of getting the best saw for you. BTDT! You'll probably know when the right one comes a long.

Keep us posted! :thumbsup:


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

@knotscott - The guy selling the GI said he didn't know if it is a 30" or 52". He said he would have to get back to me but the price is 500.00 firm without any extras or mobile base.

I have a project I need to finish so I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Normally, I just keep an eye on CL and eBay when I'm looking for a used item but I'm kinda pressed for time. I found 2 other old Sears units for $150 each. One is 1HP with steel extensions and the other is 3HP with cast iron extensions but they both have the standard, crappy steel rails/fence. I may have to go with one of these for now. I also came across a couple more old Sears units but they want 300-400 for them. I just can't justify paying that much for an old non-commercial saw.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, the GI is a nice saw....hard to imagine getting a nicer new saw for $500, but there's no warranty, no riving knife, and that just seems a bit steep for this market....$500 should buy one heck of a saw in this economy. Might be worth a look if it's mint....check the alignment and see if it's dead on. If its not mint and/or the alignment is off, I really doubt he'll be able to sell it for $500. Mine was plenty capable, but a great deal on a Craftsman 22124 convinced me to move it. The 22124 had the advantage of a full enclosed cabinet, cabinet mounted trunnions, was 40% heavier, and had the commercial version of basically the same fence that was on the GI. 

The 3hp Craftsman you mentioned isn't really 3hp...much closer to a typical 1.5hp induction motor. You really can't run a true 3hp motor on a standard 110v circuit....most run on 220v. That stock steel fence was pretty bad on those saws, and an updated fence for them would run ~ $150 for something like a nice Delta T2 fence from Tools-plus, so factor that cost into any decisions.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

The $500 GI appears to have 30" rails and it's not what I would call mint. 

A couple more "cheapies" have come up on Cragslist. Waiting for replies from the sellers.

The first one is an AMT for $80:










I don't know what the second one is. There's no motor hanging out the back so I don't know if it's direct drive or not.









Anyone know what this black one is and are round tube rail fence systems workable?

I think I'm going to grab something in the lower price range, for now, and keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a cabinet saw.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

That AMT is worth $80 IMO...it's a pretty typical older Taiwanese made contractor saw. I'm guessing that the guts aren't so different than the GI's. Heck, the motor is worth close to the asking price, and the metal wings, fence, miter gauge, stand, are all worth something too. No real financial downside at that pricet. Dunno what that bottom black saw is, but it looks to be in nice shape. You can tell whether it's an induction motor or universal by firing it up...if it screams like a circ saw it's universal. Those old jet lock fences are a step up from the stock fences on those old Emerson made saws, but still aren't ideal....you might find that it does the trick, but if not you can resell or add a better fence. 


Get it aligned well, and put a decent thin kerf blade on it like a Freud Diablo 40T or 50T, CMT P10050, Ridgid Titanium, or DeWalt Precision Trim DW7140PT...these are all decent bargain blades made in Italy or the USA, and all are readily available at Lowes or HD.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

They both look like typical foreign saws from the mid to late 80's. Grizzly's old TS's had a model that looked exactly like those. If you don't see a motor hanging I'd wonder if there isn't one included?


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Thanks so much for all the help!

He's asking $120 for the black one. From the description, it looks to be a good deal (if it's not direct drive).

_"Nice solid table saw. Quality cast iron and steel construction. This thing weighs over 200 pounds. Hard to describe just how sturdy it is. A great work horse for your shop._

_Cast iron top in excellent condition -- flat and smooth -- some stains here and there, but absolutely no rust. Main top is solid cast iron, 20" wide and 27 inches deep with fully-adjustable aluminum throat plate. There are also two cast iron, slotted, side extension tables both 9.5" wide. Total top is 39" by 27"._

_All arbor control mechanisms and cranks are steel, the actual gears appear to be stainless steel._

_Huge 1.5 hp motor, 110 volt, single phase._

_Sturdy, accurate, steel fence system. The rails are steel tubes, and the fence itself seems to be steel. Locks in place firmly. Has excellent precision, small-adjustment knob. Fence can position a full 24" from the blade._

_Large, miter slide/gauge that also appears to be steel. has 3 micro-adjustable stops for +45 degree, 90 degrees, and -45 degrees._

_I just installed a quality Freud finish blade with plenty of life remaining. Current version of this blade is over $60. Will also include US Saw 10" blade that was on the saw when I got it -- it probably needs sharpening._

_Steel pedestal stand is rock solid steady and level."_


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Going to take a peak at the black one today.

The seller said it is was imported in the late 80's by a company out in Kent, Washington from a manufacturer in Taiwan. It's a Mark 1, Model # is TS-10UL.

It's belt driven so it must be pretty tight in the cabinet since the motor doesn't hang out the back. Hope the blade is parallel to the miter gauge slot...:blink:


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

jeffshead said:


> Going to take a peak at the black one today.


From the pix, it looks good -- but I'd urge you to add a blade guard and riving knife (or some other splitter).

I have an old Delta "super 10" saw with tubular fence rails, it locks down tight and true after spending a little time aligning the fence.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

jeffshead said:


> Going to take a peak at the black one today.
> 
> The seller said it is was imported in the late 80's by a company out in Kent, Washington from a manufacturer in Taiwan. It's a Mark 1, Model # is TS-10UL.
> 
> It's belt driven so it must be pretty tight in the cabinet since the motor doesn't hang out the back. Hope the blade is parallel to the miter gauge slot...:blink:


I wouldn't get too hung up on blade alignment. You CAN fix / adjust that...

Just make sure you can access the trunion bolts to do so... If it's not aligned it just means the owner didn't maintain his tools as well as he could...

~tom


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

firemedic said:


> I wouldn't get too hung up on blade alignment. You CAN fix / adjust that...
> 
> Just make sure you can access the trunion bolts to do so... If it's not aligned it just means the owner didn't maintain his tools as well as he could...
> 
> ~tom


The blade-to-miter slot alignment on this saw is horrible. It's out more than 1/8" from front to back of blade. Can that much be adjusted out?

Does this look like the typical contractor saw set up?









Does anyone see any negatives with this saw's components?

The fence is also out of alignment.








Can this type of fence (round bars) be adjusted? Quite a bit of play in it but it does lock tight.


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

jeffshead said:


> The blade-to-miter slot alignment on this saw is horrible. It's out more than 1/8" from front to back of blade. Can that much be adjusted out?
> 
> Does this look like the typical contractor saw set up?


I've only ever seen my own saw, which is far from typical. Still, in that photo, the trunnion bolts seem clean (as in "not rusted to oblivion") so you should be able to adjust it.



> Does anyone see any negatives with this saw's components?


No -- and with a link belt, you're already $25 ahead of the game, as that is an often-recommended upgrade.



> The fence is also out of alignment.
> 
> Can this type of fence (round bars) be adjusted? Quite a bit of play in it but it does lock tight.


The shape of the bars has no impact on whether you can adjust the fence -- it's the sliding arm that matters. There look to be a couple of bolt heads on the top of the fence arm, loosening those should allow you to change the angle of the fence to the bars.

The important thing is not the play when you loosen the fence, but that it locks down in a consistent orientation to the bars.

It looks fine to me.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The trunnion setup looks pretty typical of a contractor saw to me...very similar to those found on the GI, Jet, PM64, Grizzly, Bridgwood, Woodtek, Delta, and others. The link belt is a definite plus and is a good sign that the guy leaned toward good performance from his tools. Take the time to clean up the gears with a tooth brush and lube them with some spray on white lithium grease (~ $5)...it sprays on like a liquid but dries like a hard wax and doesn't attract dust. Grab a decent new blade too....the saw will only perform as well as the blade and the alignment will allow. 

Alignment can be a bit tedious, but with some effort and patience you'll get it, and hopefully won't have to do it again. If all else fails, you can get by just aligning the fence to the blade, but aligning the blade to the miter slots, then the fence to the blade will make everything else work better down the road. Here's a link that shows one approach to alignment....he ususes a dial indicator, but you can get remarkably close just using a good combo square or even a screw on the end of a scrap piece secured 90° to a 3/4" scrap fitted in the miter slot. There's a device called PALS that can help hold the rear brackets in place, and makes fine tuning easier...~ $20 from Inline Industries or possibly Woodcraft...$20 well spent IMHO.










Here's Howard Acheson's low-tech method:
_"Make 3/4 x 3/4 x 12" hardwood stick. Drill a hole somewhat centered in one end and insert a brass #8 x 1" round head wood screw about half way. UNPLUG THE SAW. Raise the blade completely up. Clamp this board in your miter gauge (if you determine that there is some slop in your slot to miter gauge, use a playing card to take up the slop) so the screw head just about touches the blade at the front. Now rotate the blade by hand and determine which tooth is the closest. Adjust the screw in or out until it just touches this tooth. Mark this tooth. Rotate the blade so the tooth is now at the back of the table and move the miter gauge/stick assembly to the back and see if it touches the marked tooth to the same extent. If it doesn't, adjust the trunnion (if a contractor saw) or the tabletop (if a cabinet saw) until it does. _

_For a contractor saw, first use a small c-clamp on the rear trunnion and cradle to keep the assembly from moving. Then loosen the two rear trunnion bolts and one front trunnion bolt. Slightly loosen the other front trunnion bolt and use a stick to tap the trunnion until the blade and screw lightly touch. The blade does not move directly around the center so you will need to repeatedly go back to the front of the blade, readjust the screw, and then again measure the back. Be sure to check after tightening the trunnion as the trunnion frequently moves when being tightened."_

If none of these methods seem to work, it's possible that the connecting rods between the brackets are twisted, so you may need to research the Delta method that describes how to untwist them....hopefully not, but it's doable if you need to.


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

knotscott said:


> ... a dial indicator, but you can get remarkably close just using a good combo square or even a screw on the end of a scrap piece secured 90° to a 3/4" scrap fitted in the miter slot


Because I was new at it and didn't have a clue what I was doing, I went with the dial indicator approach -- numbers I can read make it much easier for me. I think the indicator cost $12 on eBay.

CLICK HERE for a photo of the jig I built (I had a spare bar for the miter slot)

HTH


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

*How are you making out with that saw?*

Jeffshead... just wondering how you are making out with that saw?


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for asking. I’ve been working my rear off trying to get it right!

I took it completely apart, cleaned it, lubed it, elongated the trunnion holes, installed the Pals kit, shimmed the front trunnion and aligned the blade.

At 90 degrees, the back of the blade varied less than .001 inch. At 45 degrees it varied .0015. It took many, many tries to get it that close. Of course I tested the same spot on the blade. After adjusting, I raise, lower and tilt the blade a few times to make sure it stays in alignment and it does UNTIL I perform a few test cuts at 90 and 45 degrees. It goes out of alignment by .008-.012 inch! Is this normal?

What accuracy/stability should I expect from this saw?

I’m really frustrated at this point and seriously considering going out and buying a brand new cabinet saw even though that’s way more than I want to spend or need. I'm just not satisfied with this saw.

It looks like Sears no longer carries the 22124.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

jeffshead said:


> Thanks for asking. I&#146;ve been working my rear off trying to get it right!
> 
> I took it completely apart, cleaned it, lubed it, elongated the trunnion holes, installed the Pals kit, shimmed the front trunnion and aligned the blade.
> 
> ...


Have you aligned the motor and pulleys yet? If it not aligned it will try to make it self so and nudge the trunion a bit...

~tom


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Have you aligned the motor and pulleys yet? If it not aligned it will try to make it self so and nudge the trunion a bit...
> 
> ~tom


I did it by eye. It looks to be perfectly straight. I don't have a good straight edge to use.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Contractor saws can be a bit difficult to align...you're fairly close, but it should be better than that. It could be a couple of things. It's possible that there are burrs where the trunnions meet the table top that need to be filed flat. It's possible that the bolts/washers are bent or distorted from pressure, in which case hardware with better steel would be helpful. And it's possible that the tie bars are twisted a bit.....this procedure explains how to fix that, which is what I'd try first. If you can't seem to get the blade any more closely aligned with the miter slot, just adjust the fence and the miter gauge to the blade....you'll at least be able to use it safely then. 

HTH!

The 22124 was discontinued a couple of years ago and replaced by the 22116 with granite top....the 22116 is also a nice saw with cabinet mounted trunnions, the same motor and drive system, but loses the connecting rods in favor of a more elegant one piece cast arbor carriage. The fence is no longer a Biese, but it's a good fence.


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## thehunter (Oct 27, 2010)

jeffshead said:


> The blade-to-miter slot alignment on this saw is horrible. It's out more than 1/8" from front to back of blade. Can that much be adjusted out?
> 
> Does this look like the typical contractor saw set up?
> 
> ...


 that is a rexon saw. i just got one form my neighbor. it looks the same except its green and in not as good a shaped. very heavy saw. the fence on mine locks right down.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

I figured out why my blade alignment readings were varying so much. I was raising and tilting the blade all the way over to the 90 and 45 degree stops when using the dial indicator. This was causing some flex. If the saw was better designed, it would have stops in the front and back, but it does not.









So far, alignment at 89 and 44 degrees is off by less than .001.

Now I have another problem. The fence does not lock real tight. I can move the fence if I push on it. The handle bottoms out. I cannot push it down any further and it just barely seems to lock in place. The handle actually rises a little, by itself, after pushing it all the way down.

I really do not want to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear by putting a $200-400 replacement fence on this saw. I think this saw will tide me over till I come a across a fair deal on a cabinet saw if I can get the fence straightened out.

*Is there a fix for this?* I thought about elongating the slot so I can push the handle down further but I don't know if that will help or just make it go past the widest point on the cam. Also, should the cam and the contact plate on the lever be smooth or rough? I was thinking about roughening them up a bit but I'm worried about removing too much material since the handle is already bottoming out.

*UPDATE:*
Never mind. That thick hunk of pot metal garbage  they call a lever is broken.

I guess no one sells parts for these things, do they?

Will just about any after market fence/rails bolt up to the same holes in the table?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

jeffshead said:


> UPDATE:
> Never mind. That thick hunk of pot metal garbage  they call a lever is broken.
> 
> I guess no one sells parts for these things, do they?
> ...


well, yes and no. You can make most any fence work on any saw given some work and re-machining... But I suggest you look around for a better fence. If you could find a biese clone or unifence for 1-2 bills you'd be way ahead of the game.

If that's not an option I do have a half decent factory fence from a grizz 1022z I'd almost give away, but I'm not sure it would be worth the shipping 

~tom


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Tough luck, but I give you credit for hanging in there with it. 

The Delta T2 fence is ~ $156 shipped from Tools-plus.com. Nice fence....great fence for that price. It'll still be worth close to $100 if you ever decide to scrap this saw and get something different, or you can buy another nicer saw with no fence and transfer the T2. You might also find a way to repair the existing handle. Good luck.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

I'm so frustrated with this darn saw. I've spent way too much time trying to get it right. If it was a fix'er up Unisaw or the like, I would not mind so much. Live and learn. At least I've gained some knowledge.

I guess I'm going to buy the Delta T2 fence. By the time I'm done with it, someone will be getting a nice, tuned saw when I sell it.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

The table on this saw is really flat but when I run a straight edge out over either the left or right extensions, I find that the outer most edge of the extensions are about 3/32" higher than the table. I already lowered them till they are slightly below the table, where they bolt on.

How much variance is normal with contractor saws?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

It's normal to have to shim the wings level with the table. I've never been one to fuss much over table flatness if the saw cuts well....it'd take a fairly large deviation to negatively effect the cut.


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## xphnmn (Dec 7, 2009)

knotscott said:


> It's normal to have to shim the wings level with the table. I've never been one to fuss much over table flatness if the saw cuts well....it'd take a fairly large deviation to negatively effect the cut.


 
Myself I'd say 3/32 is fairly large! I would think that much deviation on the wing will make a 90 degree edge off by a lot if the workpiece rests a large portin of itself on the wing..


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

What do you guys recommend for shims? I'm going to have to shim from the top, not the bottom.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Pop can material, thin sheet metal, aluminum tape, duct tape in a pinch....basically whatever fills the gap that'll withstand the pressure from tightening the bolts.

I didn't notice the 3/32" figure before...that is pretty big, but worth a try. There could be a burr on the wing or table edge that's causing that much of a gap.


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Sorry to keep going on and on with this post. Everyone's input has been very helpful and much appreciated. Thank you, all!

I ordered the Delta T2 fence.

I wasted a lot of time trying to repair that pot metal lever. To replace the part that broke off, I fabricated and welded steel around the top half of the lever which basically encased it in steel. I put it on the machine and it worked great than the darn thing broke in another place.

I see a couple of Rigid 3660's have come up on CL for $400 and $450. Are they worth looking at? I'm having a hard time with those aluminum fence rails. How does the 3660 compare with the GI 50-185 I am eyeballing?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

No problem with the length of the thread for me. The fact that you keep trying stuff and posting updates has me interested now! (I hate abandoned posts where the OP doesn't weigh in...."hit and runs" as I call them. :thumbdown

$400-$450 for a used 3650 or 3660 is a little high IMO, but it's still a capable saw....$250-$300 is a more common price. They're really in the same classification and it's a matter of opinion, but I always thought that the GI (and similar PM64a) had the 3650 pretty well covered in the fence, build quality, and motor power, but the GI uses a connecting rod arbor carriage that's pretty similar to what you've got now, whereas the 3650 used a more elegant one piece shroud as an arbor carriage...it's a minor thing until you have an issue with the connecting rods twisting, which can be a pain to adjust. 

Now that you've ordered the T2, I'd see how that works for you. Then you can step back and re-evaluate.


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## xphnmn (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm just a little concerned that you've ordered a new fence for this saw and are already looking at other saws. Why buy a fence if you're going to turn around and sell this saw and buy something else?


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

xphnmn said:


> I'm just a little concerned that you've ordered a new fence for this saw and are already looking at other saws. Why buy a fence if you're going to turn around and sell this saw and buy something else?


Because I don't think I'm going to be satisfied with this saw even after I put the new fence on it. Subtracting my time and labor, I thought I would stand a better chance of recouping my money because it would be easier to sell with a descent fence. I'll post pics when I get the fence on. I don't care much for the extensions on this saw because they are not solid CI and their surfaces are not machined smooth like others are. I would rather have a saw with smooth, solid cast iron extensions and a wider base to make it more stable. This saw does not have a splitter either. I guess I could add one to the throat plate but that's only good for 90 degree cuts.

I'm just not seeing anything descent in the $200-$300 price range in a 2 hour radius of my area. I was going to buy an older Sears saw until I found out the extension he added to the right side was not CI. He said he was just going to put the saw in storage if he could not get $300 for it. He was asking $350. That seems to be the case with most everyone I've contacted. Since they are not pressed to sell, they would just rather hold on to their stuff.

Back to those Rigid 36xx's again... How do their factory fences compare with the Delta T2?

I have reservations about the aluminum rails on the old Sears and Rigids but I've never used either so maybe there fine.

















I wish there was one close by for me to play with. They're asking $400 for that Sears TS and $450 for the Rigid pictured above.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The T2 is a steel t-square design that's sort of like a Biesemeyer "Lite". Both of the fences you just showed are dual locking aluminum and are actually pretty similar to each other. A lot of folks really both, and it's really a matter of opinion....I've never been a big fan of the plastic handles, aluminum rails, and prefer the steel t-square design overall. 

The two saws shown are actually pretty similar too....very similar guts and they share some ancestry through Emerson and Ryobi.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Man, you already ordered the T2... I'd see how that goes. I think you'll be surprised once you get it all together.

~tom


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Got the fence today. The rear rail and the bolts are missing. The box was not damaged in the least. It was packaged that way.

I have NEVER encountered so many issues with a mechanical device. Really, I think this saw is jinxed or cursed :devil:


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Finally got some time to finish up the saw.

Here's a couple of pics:






















As you can see, this is not the same saw I started with. My original purchase was the black Mark 1. I purchased (for almost nothing) this AMT to use for parts but it was in such great shape that I ended up using it instead.

The Mark 1 was a Mao Shan and it's motor seemed to be a little stronger, the table and extensions were a little heavier but the AMT seemed to have been hardly used and its table and extensions were smoother so I stuck with it.

I knew the black one would be easy to sell because I had already cleaned/lubed, disassembled and installed the PALs kit and aligned the blade. I also rebuilt the original fence with steel parts so it locked tight and straight. It sold in one day on CL!

*Delta T2 fence:*
All of the original fence bolt holes were very close to aligning with the holes in the Delta rails.The two sets of holes on the table were so close that all I had to do was use a Dremel with a carbide cutter to elongate the holes. I had to drill new holes (right beside the existing) in the extensions. I attached the rails with the nuts and bolts that came with the kit. It lined up so well that I did not have to reposition the tape and the fence rides less than 1/16" off of the table. The left side of the fence is perfectly perpendicular to the table but the right side still needs to be shimmed a little. I may not even worry about it.

*Blade alignment:*
After elongating the trunnion bolt holes and installing the PALs kit, I was able to get the 90 degree alignment dead on and the 45 degree alignment is out less than 0.001.

*Belt and pulleys:*
The original pulleys were really good for stock ones but they made the blade turn too fast. The pulley on the motor was a whopping 3 incher! I ordered individual pulleys from In-Line Industries to slow it down a bit and give the saw a little more power. I had already purchased a link belt from WoodCraft. I can't believe how quite and smooth the saw is. It reminds me of the old General's and Delta's I used when I was in school.

*Miter gauge:*
I was going to make a sled but I decided to buy a miter gauge since I do most of my cross cuts on a sliding miter saw. I sprung for the Osborne miter gauge and I'm glad I did. I was looking at the Incra's and Kregs but the Osborne (IMO) seems to be much more stable since it uses a large triangle configuration. The cuts are so nice and accurate, I may start using the table saw for my cross cuts.

*Mobile base:*
I wanted portability so I purchased a HTC-3000 for $69. To make the saw more stable, I increased the size of its footprint by using a 2' x 2' piece of 3/4" oak plywood for the base. It's much more stable then when it was stock.

The saw cuts great and I know I am way more satisfied than I would have been if I had purchased a new $500-700 saw with aluminum rails, steel extensions, plastic parts, etc.

Now I'm thinking about adding a router table to the right hand side. I already have a fairly descent Craftsman router table but I thought I may save a little space by incorporating one in the table saw since the rails stick out that far anyway. What do you guys think about router tables on table saws? What's the best material to use?


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Wings out of alignment. Shim them.

My first question is, have you cut any wood with it? With a good blade?
Right now Onsrud is selling a lot of their blades on the bay for $15-$30.
I bought a 60 tooth, negative hook, blade for my ras for $20 shipped. It works great. Or Lowes has, Skil, 60 tooth, and a 24 tooth, combo pack marked down to $19.95. I used the 60 tooth and it's well worth the money.

See how it cuts, with the miter gauge, and rips, with a fence clamped parallel to the blade, Make a few 45 deg. cuts, and see how they fit together. 

Is the motor inside the saw or behind it?


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## jeffshead (May 6, 2011)

Pirate said:


> Wings out of alignment. Shim them.
> 
> My first question is, have you cut any wood with it? With a good blade?
> Right now Onsrud is selling a lot of their blades on the bay for $15-$30.
> ...


_"Wings out of alignment. Shim them"_ - Not a problem with this saw. I guess you did not understand my previous post. This is not the same saw I started with.

The saw cuts great as I posted previously. I already put a new, high quality blade on it and it makes superb crosscuts with the Osborne miter and awesome rips with the Delta fence.

It's a contractor saw so the motor is behind the saw.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Onsrud blades. I think I will purchase one.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

D'oh! Guess I missed the part about that saw? What happened with the first $80 saw? It looked like it had some commercial stock rollers on the fence.

The saw you got looks great. I'm also a fan of solid wings. Seeing you want a router in the extension table, I would take the right extension off, and make an extension table from, the saw table out to the ends of the rails. I've seen a number of cabinet makers, who have the extension, with no wing. Before I had a Unisaw, a friend bought one from a cabinet maker, and it only had the right wing and a long table on the right. No problem.
I would make the router, ext. table out of mdf, and be sure to add laminate to top, and bottom, and hardwood edging.
Make or buy a router fence for the table. It's a pain to be using the ts fence for routing, and need to move it to rip a piece, and loas the router setup. Been there/done that!
Since you are into upgrading the saw, which is great, I would recommend a paddle switch, mounted below the rail, so your left, knee, can hit it when you finish a cut. A great convenience and safety item.
When making a stopped cut, it's nice to be able to keep both hands on the work, and turn the saw off., instead of reaching/searching for the switch.
Looks great. Good luck with it.


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