# Jet BAG or CANISTER



## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

I am dizzy from reading everything.

I am still trying to understand the whole "SAW" dust collection scene, even after visiting my local Woodcraft store. They don't even call it saw dust anymore it's just dust.

So I want to be able to leave this contraption in one place and run some hose for a table saw, mitre saw, drill press.... small time garage operation.

So this thing is essentially replacing my craftsman shop vac and it will also remove the particulate matter in the air to some degree.

Canister or bag?

thanks in advance


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*air in = air out*

Bags don't filter all that well, about 30 microns at worst to just under 3 at best. After the bag gets "clogged" up a bit, the fabric's openings are blocked by dust so it's not very efficient in passing the pressurized air back into the shop. It filters better but won't pass the same amount of air as with a clean bag.

The cannister has many more square inches of filter area because of the pleats and can pass much more air. It also has finer filtration from 2 microns to under 1 at best. Best dust collection moves lots of cubic feet of air/dust.

So there you have it bag or cannister? 

Ribbed dust collection hose restricts the efficiency of the air flow, so use it at a minimum. Some of my ribbed hoses are only 3 ft long, the longest being about 6 ft. I some dedicated hoses that stay attached to the machine, others move around with the dust collector on it's mobile base.

A shop vac and a dust collector are different animals.
A shop vac is a high velocity, low volume sucker. A dust collector is a lower velocity, high volume sucker. Shop vacs work best when the opening is right next to the source of the dust like on a radial arm saw blade cover or a miter saw blade cover. Dust collectors also benefit from near source placement, but since there is a large volume of air movement they can be located further away.


Dust vs chips and shavings:

Shop vacs don't do chips very well because they can clog up the smaller size hose. They do saw dust like from a bandsaw port under the table very well, because it's right near the source.

Dust collectors do chips real well because of the larger size hose, so use it on a jointer or planer. Because of the higher volume use it on your drum sander which is a dust generating monster. That amount of dust would clog a shop vac filter in minutes. A Dust Deputy or other separator is a great addition to the shop vac and will keep the filter clean for extended use.

A dust collector in line separator also works great but it takes up floor space that some home shops can't spare. Lot's of topics and good threads here in the Duct Collection section of the forum. :yes:


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## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

Big thanks!!! So the bag or the canister is the intake for the system , hmmmmmm, no the hose sucking the dust is right? If the bag or canister is also sucking air from the room the bag or canister then must be the exhaust....I think I get it now. So the vortex allows gravity to separate air from 2micron particulates.....

I likw the JET vortex idea so far. I want to buy something ready to go with out any DIY with the exception of the hosing/custome duct work though my small shop.

foot print is of course a consideration. What do you have or like?:thumbsup: 



woodnthings said:


> Bags don't filter all that well, about 30 microns at worst to just under 3 at best. After the bag gets "clogged" up a bit, the fabric's openings are blocked by dust so it's not very efficient in passing the pressurized air back into the shop. It filters better but won't pass the same amount of air as with a clean bag.
> 
> The cannister has many more square inches of filter area because of the pleats and can pass much more air. It also has finer filtration from 2 microns to under 1 at best. Best dust collection moves lots of cubic feet of air/dust.
> 
> ...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Canister filter is the way to go...what's your budget for a dust collector?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no, the bag exhausts air*



vdotmatrix said:


> Big thanks!!!* So the bag or the canister is the intake for the system *, hmmmmmm, no the hose sucking the dust is right?
> 
> *No, the intake is the suction hose. The cannister or bags allows it to exhaust or escape.
> *
> ...


I have Jet 1100, pre vortex 1 1/2HP collectors. I have experimented with Thein separators and cone shaped devices inside the Jet separator body, with little or no success, unlike others who have done the same thing.
I would still like to get it done within, because it saves floor space. The Jet Vortex gets very good reviews as far as I know. They have a You Tube video that demonstrates the difference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-KNCb7bEkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MflPI5K2g4


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

never understood high velocity vs low velocity...

there is only volume over time. the velocity is just a factor of the diameter hose in which it is traveling. If I shoot 1gallon per minute through a 1" pipe or a 6" pipe, itll still be the same gallon.

Maybe the shapvac has more "head pressure"? an air pump, like any pump can be designed for pressure or volume. Maybe thats what it means?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Sure...but one gallon through a 1" pipe will carry debris with it....1 gallon through a 1 foot pipe will move at a slow trickle right over the dust. You need a particular velocity to keep dust suspended.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*velocity vs volume or CFMs*

Here's a high velocity blower, with low 400 CFMs.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/BLACK-DE...v242994&cm_mmc=CJ-_-994989-_-10368321&cj=true

This Jet has higher volume CFMs. but lower velocity.

This site will help:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jet-DC-1100...1084279274?pt=Power_Tools&hash=item54124cd9ea

It's my understanding that the air speed MPH or FPS in a shop vac is higher than that in a duct collector system. 
It is also my understanding the the air flow in CFMs is lower in a shop vac than in a dust collector system. 
The HP ratings on shop vac are BS as far as I know, and the current draw is not comparable given the same HP on the the same size dust collector. In addition a DC motor is spinning an impeller 3 X the diameter of the shop vac at or around 3450 RPMs.

The shop vac motors spin very fast, from 20,000 rpms to 27,000 rpms and more, but they don't capture much air because of the thin impeller, usually around 1/4" to 1/2" wide. 

so that's my opinion FWIW :yes:


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

+1 on woodnthings comments. The reason shop vacs can get high air speed is because the hose is so narrow. Air flow (cfm) = air speed (fpm) * area (cross section of hose/duct). So, if you replace your 2" shop vac hose with a 4" hose (with 4x the area), the air speed will be 1/4. 

The airspeed drops even more dramatically as the area increases, which is why there's only a small cone beyond the end of the hose that's any good for sucking up floor dust, for example. Also, it's why shop vacs aren't good for collecting dust from stationary tools (jointers, planers, table saws) where the port opens into a large area inside the tool. 

Shop vacs are good for hand held routers and sanders, because the ports are small, so no real drop in airspeed at the point of dust pickup.

As ryan50hrl notes, you need a certain airspeed to keep dust suspended (as well as to pickup)- about 4000 fpm for wood dust and shavings. The dilemma is that while you get good airspeed with a narrow pipe, you also get a lot more resistance to air flow, with loss in performance; wider pipes have lower air speeds, but don't drag down performance nearly as much, esp. with long duct runs. It's like the power loss you have when you hook up a big power tool to a long, small gauge extension cord.

I'm not a hydraulics engineer, but from my readings on DC's there are a lot of variables in impeller design- width and diameter of impellers, straight or curved blades, shroud dimensions, etc., etc. that affect air flow, air speed, noise, suction, etc. That being said, most woodworking DC's are designed to maximize air flow with suction and airspeed adequate for wood dust. 

As woodnthings, said, HP claims contain a lot of BS. However, it's my understanding that with DC's there's a pretty good correlation between amps and air flow. So, for example, DC's producing 1200 cfm need more than 20 amps at 120 V, so they need 240 V. Harbor Freight's popular DC claims 1550 cfm, on 120 V. I think that's "optimistic", unless they did the measurements with the DC facing into a gale force wind.

Just my rant. :icon_smile:


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

*Canister*



vdotmatrix said:


> I am dizzy from reading everything.
> 
> I am still trying to understand the whole "SAW" dust collection scene, even after visiting my local Woodcraft store. They don't even call it saw dust anymore it's just dust.


If you are still confused, visit some other woodworker's shops and ask questions. Do you have a local woodworker's Guild that you can participate in?



vdotmatrix said:


> So I want to be able to leave this contraption in one place and run some hose for a table saw, mitre saw, drill press.... small time garage operation.


If you are in a small workshop (mine is about 500 sqft, the size of 2 -1/2 garage bays), you might want to just have all your equipment on mobile bases, including the dust collection. I can not imagine trying to use my shop equipment without mobile bases. I have enough space to perform two (2) to three (3) operations at once. The rest of the equipment is sitting along the wall space out of the way. The dust collection is usually in the center of the equipment, with a short hose run to the currently running equipment. 



vdotmatrix said:


> So this thing is essentially replacing my craftsman shop vac and it will also remove the particulate matter in the air to some degree.


Yes, you can replace your craftsman shop vac with a dust collection system. It really depends on the volume of saw dust you are creating and the size of the chips. If you are using a sander, scroll saw, miter saw, etc. you might be better off with the shop vac. If you are using a table saw, router table, jointer, surface planer, etc, you definitely need a dust collector.

It will also depend on your shop. Mine is completely enclosed. When my woodshop was in the garage, I had a couple of full size garage doors to open and move the saw dust outside. Now with a fully enclosed wood shop, I have: 

1.) a Jet 1100 dust collector to collect the dust at the source, 
2.) two (2) Jet AFS-1000b units to filter the wood shop air,
3.) a 6' x 8' overhead door,
4.) and a 2550 CFM ventilation fan that exhausts to the outside.

I always use option #1 when I am using equipment. #2 is on low, whenever I am in the shop. If the operation is particularly dusty, I will turn #2 on medium or high speed. In the spring, summer and fall, I will open #3 and turn on #4 to an appropriate speed.



vdotmatrix said:


> Canister or bag?


In answer to your question....I use a canister with a TopHat Separator on a Jet 1100. You can get more information about my dust collection at this thread:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/pipe-diameter-vs-performance-59625/

Enjoy!
Eric


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## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

Thank you for taking the time , all of you , to answer my questions. I had to use the router tonite and there was so much saw dust everywhere....and not to mention in the air. I have a box fan and an AC filter in it running,I have the shop vac hooked up to the router and mitre and table saw but there is still crap everywhere....I like that JET vortex 1100...but I was also looking at The international


ORBlackFZ1 said:


> If you are still confused, visit some other woodworker's shops and ask questions. Do you have a local woodworker's Guild that you can participate in?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

vdotmatrix said:


> Thank you for taking the time , all of you , to  answer my questions. I had to use the router tonite and there was so much saw dust everywhere....and not to mention in the air. I have a box fan and an AC filter in it running,I have the shop vac hooked up to the  router and mitre and table saw but there is still crap everywhere....


Yes, hand held routers can be pretty messy. I have a Bosch that I sometimes use handheld. It is connected to my DC and there is still a lot of dust that doesn't make it into the DC. When you start using a totally enclosed router table, the dust pretty much goes into the DC. Check out Bill Hylton's book for an excellent router table design. 
http://www.amazon.com/Woodworking-R...TF8&qid=1425111274&sr=1-1&keywords=1565234391

I built my router table in 2009 using Bills design. I didn't change any of the dust collection parts that he designed into the system. The dust collection is amazing. I can use the router in the router table all day long in the shop without having a dust problem.



vdotmatrix said:


> I like that JET vortex 1100...but I was also looking at The international


Wow! That general is pretty expensive ($575 at Home Depot) for the following specifications:


Airflow capacity: 506 CFM
Filter area: 20.33 sq. ft.
Sound rating: 80-85 dB
Blower wheel diameter: 10 in. (254 mm)
Static pressure: 6-3/4 in. of water
Canister filter size: 14-1/2 in. x 11-3/4 in. (370 mm x 300 mm
You would be wise to check out the Harbor Freight Dust Collector (97869) that other woodworkers have rated pretty high on this forum, especially for the minimal cost ($210 - 20% discount coupon is about $168)
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-industrial-5-micron-dust-collector-97869.html

You would have about $400 to put toward a good filter canister, nice casters, flexible hose and some connectors. If I didn't have a Jet dust collector (DC), I would be purchasing the HF DC.

I would also suggest that you check out the Grizzly DCs. Here is a nice Grizzly 1HP unit with a canister for $434 shipped to your house:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1HP-Canister-Dust-Collector/G0583Z

Here is a Grizzly 2HP unit with a canister for $529 shipped to your house:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2HP...h-Aluminum-Impeller-Polar-Bear-Series/G0548ZP

This one does require 240VAC, but it is a far better unit than the General International you had a link for, and it costs less!!!!!

Please keep us posted with your questions and purchase.


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## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

YUP I like Bill Hltons book....don't like my craftsman POS table.

I built my router table in 2009 using Bills design. I didn't change any of the dust collection parts that he designed into the system. The dust collection is amazing. I can use the router in the router table all day long in the shop without having a dust problem.



Wow! That general is pretty expensive ($575 at Home Depot) for the following specifications:


Airflow capacity: 506 CFM
Filter area: 20.33 sq. ft.
Sound rating: 80-85 dB
Blower wheel diameter: 10 in. (254 mm)
Static pressure: 6-3/4 in. of water
Canister filter size: 14-1/2 in. x 11-3/4 in. (370 mm x 300 mm
 I wouldn't buy this in particular from HD.
You would be wise to check out the Harbor Freight Dust Collector (97869) that other woodworkers have rated pretty high on this forum, especially for the minimal cost ($210 - 20% discount coupon is about $168)
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-industrial-5-micron-dust-collector-97869.htmlI would not buy anything expensive from HF. The most I ever spent were for some air tools that have lasted a very long time and I am surprised.

You would have about $400 to put toward a good filter canister, nice casters, flexible hose and some connectors. If I didn't have a Jet dust collector (DC), I would be purchasing the HF DC. Most DC are of the same general design with the exception of the cone design in the jet vortex...I have a ridiculously standard sized garage and what I want to do is get the smallest DC that I can hook up to a tube system that runs along 2 of the walls in the garage with INLETS I can plug in to for my machines and filter the air a little for the particulate matter that will collect in my lungs.

Although this JET doesn't have the vortex feature it does have a small footprint and 650CFMs ( anyone have this one?)

The one I am leaning towards this the Jet with the Vortex 1100 only because of the reviews ( what else?)

-I know I want canister for small filtration
-I need a small foot print
-I want the convenient to be able to have the stations hooked up to the system and with a flip of a blast gate I can effectively capture the dust from the machine
-I wouldl like to remove some of the particulate matter from the air.
-I can stay at 110v
-I like to keep the decibels down although we all wear hearing protection right!!!

The vortex is the only one that has a departure from design. I guess I only need one inlet to the DC? I am getting closer to making a purchase with a little help from my friends:shifty:

Please keep us posted with your questions and purchase.[/QUOTE]


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> Bags don't filter all that well, about 30 microns at worst to just under 3 at best. After the bag gets "clogged" up a bit, the fabric's openings are blocked by dust so it's not very efficient in passing the pressurized air back into the shop. It filters better but won't pass the same amount of air as with a clean bag.


Depends on the bags and the system used... :yes:


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

vdotmatrix said:


> Most DC are of the same general design with the exception of the cone design in the jet vortex...I have a ridiculously standard sized garage and what I want to do is get the smallest DC that I can hook up to a tube system that runs along 2 of the walls in the garage with INLETS I can plug in to for my machines and filter the air a little for the particulate matter that will collect in my lungs.
> 
> Although this JET doesn't have the vortex feature it does have a small footprint and 650CFMs ( anyone have this one?)
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have already made your decision, but I will add a couple other comments for you to think about:

1. I have the predecessor to the Jet (DC-1100) you refer to. I was a little PO'd that I purchased mine the year before Jet announced the Vortex version. I kept waiting for the upgrade to be available for my DC-1100. Jet didn't release an upgrade option, so I used the specifications from a Vortex that I got my hands on and made my own. In testing, the Vortex was a slight improvement, but not worth the "Sales HYPE". I still got plenty of dust fines in the filter, even though the "Sales HYPE" video that JET was posting showed no fines. Every time I emptied the bag, I would have to clean the canister also. Cleaning the canister is a PITA! 

2. In March 2014, I added a Thein Top Hat pre-separator to my dust collector. The Top Hat pre-separator was an amazing improvement! You can find more information about it here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/pipe-diameter-vs-performance-59625/

After adding the Top Hat pre-separator, I have only cleaned the canister filter two (2) times. Which totaled to less than two (2) gallons of dust fines in the canister and bag. I have filled my 45 gallon barrel about 40 times. The bottom line is that I have gotten about one (1) gallon of saw dust in my filter canister for every 900 gallons of sawdust I produce! 

So, no matter which Dust Collector you get, make sure you are planning on adding a pre-separator to it. You can make your own or purchase a Super Deputy Dust Cyclone. http://www.oneida-air.com/inventory.asp?catid={17F46883-40BB-471E-982F-E5F28583241B}

Just make sure that your dust collection you purchase can handle the loss of CFM and static pressure, that the pre-separator creates.

Keep us posted on your purchase and how it works for you.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> Bags don't filter all that well, about 30 microns at worst to just under 3 at best. After the bag gets "clogged" up a bit, the fabric's openings are blocked by dust so it's not very efficient in passing the pressurized air back into the shop. It filters better but won't pass the same amount of air as with a clean bag.


You are talking about woven cloth / open weave collector bags from china. Those DO 'tend' to run around 30 micron filtration. 

Felt bags usually get down to about 5 microns.

'Optimized' felt bags can get down to 1 micron and any reduction is airflow is compensated for by larger bags.

You want to be thinking along the lines of big cyclone type systems that include fairly large 'baghouses' (using 'quality' optimized felt bags and NOT china crap). In some *really big* industrial applications there may be hundreds of bags in the 'baghouse'... Why on earth would these people NOT be using canisters??? :huh: 




I am NOT just telling you about some stuff I saw on Youtube or read on the Internet here. 





















One can easily buy good quality aftermarket (USA made) cloth bags for most any of the Taiwanese DCollectors around and in use today and get much better filtration (1 micron) and much longer life out of the bag. (even a crappy 'china' woven cloth 'collector' bag is better than a plastic one FWIW) :yes:

We have tons of American companies that make badd ass stuff for woodworkers and most people never notice and have no idea. Why? Because those products are not listed in the particular brochures / ads / catalogs selling cheap, china tools and supplies and many never do any 'homework' beyond those sources. :no:


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## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

OH FALDYRALD!!!

I thought I was going to make my own cyclone contraption with a parking cone...I'd love to futz around witH all that but lost interest....That top hat thing is a freakin work of art...way about my artistic ability.....I had to go back and look at that baby again...so nice.

So if the VORTEX design isn't that great I could essentially find a comparable DC cuz they all have basically the same design.....One book I read not to even consider anything less than 1.5HP.

I am a little naive about this system but the DC don't really function as an air scrubber right?


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

vdotmatrix said:


> I thought I was going to make my own cyclone contraption with a parking cone...I'd love to futz around witH all that but lost interest....


This one is pretty easy to make.....
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/cyclone-dc-plans-50707/



vdotmatrix said:


> That top hat thing is a freakin work of art...way about my artistic ability.....I had to go back and look at that baby again...so nice.


See it in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QCAOwSqrko

It is well worth the time and effort to build it.

Here is a video of a guy making one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Sn7g-vsf8

Here is a thread that details the building of a Top Hat:
http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.msg3024#msg3024

Check out some videos on youtube.com. Search on "pre-separator" Here is one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32a_esE5NCs



vdotmatrix said:


> So if the VORTEX design isn't that great I could essentially find a comparable DC cuz they all have basically the same design.....One book I read not to even consider anything less than 1.5HP.


Yes, I consider 1.5HP as the minimum for my shop, but it depends on your equipment. I have a 20" surface planer and 12" jointer. They need a 1.5HP DC with the pre-separator. If I didn't have the pre-separator, then I could probably get by with a 1HP hooked directly to each piece of equipment. Get the largest DC that you can afford and covers any future equipment you may be purchasing. 



vdotmatrix said:


> I am a little naive about this system but the DC don't really function as an air scrubber right?


That is a true statement. The dust collector ideally collects dust at the source. I run two (2) Jet AFS-1000 units to filter the air. They catch dust that has been air borne.


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## vdotmatrix (Jul 28, 2014)

That is really the coolest thing I have ever seen made....I mean it FZ1 !!!


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