# Trimming Stair Skirt



## leungw

Hello. Could someone advise on how to do a proper transition around the end of this skirt board?

I put a small piece of baseboard there just to show the height. I plan to rip the top profile from the baseboard to make a base cap so it can run along on top of the skirt. The end of the skirt board is flush with the wall at the corner.

Do I turn the base cap to the narrow wall and then run it down, then turn 90 degree to meet the baseboard?

Thank you.


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## Sawdustguy

I would run the base unto the stair skirt ending it with a return just short of the inside corner of the stair skirt. I would rip the top profile off some base and use that as the trim on the top of the skirt ending it just short of the corner of the wall so you had some of the wall color wrap around the corner and end at the return on the skirt trim.

George


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## Keith Mathewson

What is your skill level? There is the correct way to turn the corner and there is the work around.


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## leungw

Keith Mathewson said:


> What is your skill level? There is the correct way to turn the corner and there is the work around.


I am definitely interested in the correct way.

I would say I am no pro. More like a hobbyist willing to learn. I have done casing and baseboard in the past, but they were all very straight forward. Have also done some basic built-in like an in-wall shelf.

EDIT.... I just noticed "Stairbuilder" under your name. I recently re-did my railing.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f14/replacing-newel-post-159191/


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## Keith Mathewson

The way one would turn a corner from rake to level without transitioning to level first requires two different sizes of trim. Since the amount of profile change is dependent in the rake angle it must be made to fit and as such is outside the skill sets of most finish carpenters, so I have some apprehensions about how successful this may be for you. If you are interested there is an article from "This is Carpentry" which goes into greater detail. http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/10/raked-baseboard-returns/


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## leungw

Thank you for the link. Helps a lot seeing the pictures.

I think I will do what the picture shows under "Example 1: Rake to Horizontal". I need to continue the baseboard around the narrow wall. Plus I am not very good with hand tools. :laughing:


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## Sawdustguy

Post some pics when you are done. I want to learn,

Thanks

George


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## leungw

George G said:


> Post some pics when you are done. I want to learn.


I am learning too, but will post pictures when done. I will most likely work on it over the weekend.


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## BWSmith

Stair systems are full of small anamolies......you know the type.You do a project or part,3 guys look at it...they each ask why you didn't do it "this way"?Its just the way stairs and other complicated shapes and builds workout.

To your question....I don't have an answer without looking at how other places in that system look.Generally,you want consistency within the stairs as a whole.Look to see how other joints are....try not to make one better or worse than others.

There are exceptions to this.....and it usually is around the starting tread/newel.

Just like the English language being rather complicated sometimes......and even though a sentence may in fact be "perfect" in it's structure....."it sounds funny".That's how I explain these sm anamolies on stair systems.

Also,try to understand the climate or environ's that the original stairs were built in.Are you messin with something that will change any historic significance within the house?IOW's,part of the "old house charm" is infact these sm nuances that the original builders adhered to.Be careful changing things just for the sake of change.


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## leungw

BWSmith, this is just my own 30-year-old house. Nothing of historical value. It was a fixer-upper when we bought it. I removed all the baseboard and am starting from scratch.

Thank you for the pointer on consistency.


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## leungw

I started working on this, but just realized that one of the walls is really off. The middle section is "caved in" about 0.5". Any trick to make it less ugly when I put the base cap there?

Thanks!


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## chopnhack

The old trim carpenter saying comes to mind:

Bend and caulk or walk! :thumbsup:

Seriously, there are a few thing you can do:

If you choose to repaint the area, you can float out the caved in section with setting type joint compound, if you are good get some 5 minute mud and you can prime in a short time, if you are like the rest of us get some 90 minute mud :laughing:

Leave it as is and run your molding, caulk behind it (use a backer rod if you have to) chances are nobody will be looking at it as they use the stairs :laughing: But also, the nice thing with moldings is that they create a shadow line, so even though the wall is out, the shadow behind it will hide a lot of the difference.

HTH :thumbsup:


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## woodnthings

*can you find the nails?*

If you can locate the nails, I'd pull them out and see if you can pull the drywall out a bit. A hand hole would be easy to fix. I use a 4" hole saw to get inside walls for wiring. Then I glue a strap of drywall in the wall across the hole for support when I replace the round plug out of the hole saw. A little mud around the edges and you're back to "good". You can slip a wedge in behind the drywall through the hole (s) to support it. 

If you're good at mudding large areas then this method may seem overkill, if not, you don't have a big learning curve and a lot of sanding and leveling. :thumbdown:


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## Sawdustguy

This may be plaster not drywall.


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## woodnthings

*I think you're correct, if so.....*



George G said:


> This may be plaster not drywall.


Disregard my entire post. :laughing:

Quote from the OP:
BWSmith, this is just my own 30-year-old house. Nothing of historical value. It was a fixer-upper when we bought it. I removed all the baseboard and am starting from scratch.


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## chopnhack

woodnthings said:


> Disregard my entire post. :laughing:
> 
> Quote from the OP:
> BWSmith, this is just my own 30-year-old house. Nothing of historical value. It was a fixer-upper when we bought it. I removed all the baseboard and am starting from scratch.


At 30 years young there is a very good chance its drywall. Looking at the photo the OP provided, the two edges surely look like drywall where the trim was removed.


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## leungw

It's not just drywall. It's very wavy drywall.... :furious:

Thank you for all the suggestions. I am leaning towards building it up with mud.

I tried pushing/bending the middle of the base cap towards the wall and it made both ends of the cap curved away from the wall.

I am not sure if I can remove all the nails and pull the drywall out. I like the idea but that section of the drywall is close to a joint and I am afraid the joint will crack and end up being even more work.


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## BWSmith

Get a nice straight edge.........and it dosen't have to be expensive.We're talking drywall/plaster here,not checking jointer tables.

I have an ancient aluminum "style" off an old sliding galess door.Even has a nice handhold where the lock was.Looking down it's almost 7' length,it looks dang straight,haha.

Or use a nice 7' pce of plywood.This is your first drywall tool.Aluminum is really better because you can use them for finishing to.....like vaulted ceiling joints.The mud comes off better than plywood straight edges.

Now you get to go around your house and find every place thats "wavy",haha.Once you get a feel for it,you'll be amazed at what this simple tool does in the bigger scheme of things.Like,if/when you decide to put paneling up those stairs......USE THE STRAIGHTEDGE FIRST.getting ready to put a new vanity in?USE THE STRAIGH...well, you get the point.Use it everywhere......great for checking floors too.


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## chopnhack

Agreed, I have an aluminum angle I picked up years ago, probably from one of the big boxes and it has come in handy time and time again. Great for floating floors. For the wall hopefully you can get away with a large taping knife, a 12" should be good. If not, you can use a 2' aluminum level if you have one on hand, just don't push too hard on it ;-) and make sure you wash it!


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## leungw

I finally found some time to tackle this.


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## leungw

Just need some paint and caulk. I like how it turns out.

Thanks for everyone's inputs, especially Keith's article.


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## Sawdustguy

Great approach, looking good so far. A little caulk and some filler to flush things up and you will be finished.

George


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## leungw

Hello again.... I am back for more advice. :laughing:

This is another section of the stairs. The baseboard seems to be about 3/16" too thick. I would like to do something similar to what was done before, that is, rip the top profile from the baseboard and run it on top the skirt.

Any tricks/ideas on the transition are greatly appreciated.


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## Sawdustguy

Looking at the profile of the base I don't think it is as simple as planing the back. Hind sight is always 20/20. I would have ended the base at the stairs on the bottom with a return and do the same here then run some other kind of trim down the stairs.


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## Keith Mathewson

Stair skirt is suppose to seamlessly tie the base from one floor to another. Ideally it should not start & stop, jump around or look like one tried to drive a round peg into a square hole. In addition one would like to form a plan prior to beginning the job and not attempt to solve problems as one discovers them. 

That said I can think of a couple of ways you might attack the problem, neither is ideal or particularly easy. 

- You could rip a piece of skirt material, scribe it to the stair, then taper it to meet at the bottom of the stair. 

- Second option, and a less desirable one would be to plane the base to meet the skirt width. This would be easier but still noticeable.


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## leungw

Keith Mathewson said:


> Stair skirt is suppose to seamlessly tie the base from one floor to another. Ideally it should not start & stop, jump around or look like one tried to drive a round peg into a square hole. In addition one would like to form a plan prior to beginning the job and not attempt to solve problems as one discovers them.


Keith, that's why you are the pro and I am only a DIYer at best. :laughing:

The problem is only at the top of the stairs. Thanks again to the wavy drywall. The skirt width is about 3/8" near the landing. The rest of the skirt width is almost an inch. The delta happens at the first step down.



Keith Mathewson said:


> You could rip a piece of skirt material, scribe it to the stair, then taper it to meet at the bottom of the stair.


I would like to try this. Add a piece to the skirt, but only near the landing, to even out the width.

Thank you again for the advice. Will report back in a few days. :yes:


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## BigJim

Just a thought, take a piece of the top profile like you have on the other skirt, lay it on top of the skirt and let it extend up past the top profile of the base in that last picture. Make a mark on the base under the strip of profile, cut the base out on that angle and miter the two profiles, that will let the molding flow as Keith said. The only problem would be the base standing proud of the skirt.

A second thought would be to make a plinth to kill the base and the base cap into.


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## Sawdustguy

Keith Mathewson said:


> Stair skirt is suppose to seamlessly tie the base from one floor to another.


I agree 100%. That being said I have lived in four two story houses and none actually did that including the one I own now. Three were new homes and one I was the second owner and it was only four years old when I bought it.

George


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## leungw

jiju1943 said:


> Just a thought, take a piece of the top profile like you have on the other skirt, lay it on top of the skirt and let it extend up past the top profile of the base in that last picture. Make a mark on the base under the strip of profile, cut the base out on that angle and miter the two profiles, that will let the molding flow as Keith said. The only problem would be the base standing proud of the skirt.
> 
> A second thought would be to make a plinth to kill the base and the base cap into.


Thanks. The plan was exactly what you suggested. The issue is the baseboard sticking out. Looks weird from the top. Even if I put the base cap on the skirt now, the cap sticks out. So a plinth block wouldn't really help. Need to beef up the width of the skirt.


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## BigJim

leungw said:


> Thanks. The plan was exactly what you suggested. The issue is the baseboard sticking out. Looks weird from the top. Even if I put the base cap on the skirt now, the cap sticks out. So a plinth block wouldn't really help. Need to beef up the width of the skirt.


If you rip the cap so the recessed area is left on, that part is narrower and will sit on the skirt without hanging off. Even then it is going to show because the skirt shows thicker at the bottom of the stairs. 

I do agree with Keith, the ideal thing to do is install a thin skirt over the existing skirt, that would solve all your problems but that is not an easy task.


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## Keith Mathewson

George G said:


> I agree 100%. That being said I have lived in four two story houses and none actually did that including the one I own now. Three were new homes and one I was the second owner and it was only four years old when I bought it.
> 
> George


I find that very easy to believe. Without going into a long essay, there has been a substantial decline in skill level and training over the last 75 years. Most houses are built as part of a development where the houses are larger then before and the millwork is worse. Time to completion is the most important and the customer doesn't know enough to demand more. Many homeowners are more concerned with potential resale value than building to suit their tastes. Little wonder most newer houses don't inspire but merely provide shelter.


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## woodnthings

*that would certainly solve it*



jiju1943 said:


> I do agree with Keith, the ideal thing to do is install a thin skirt over the existing skirt, that would solve all your problems but that is not an easy task.


Not an easy task, but maybe there are some tricks you guys have to duplicate the stair step profile? Templates? Make one pattern and fit it along a the bottom of the stringer, making reference marks as you go? Other ways...? :blink:


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## Keith Mathewson

Carl Hagstrom does a good job of describing the process http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2013/07/12/scribing-stair-skirt-boards-revisited/


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## woodnthings

*I'm going to try that*

I'd like to face my stair skirts with some 1/4" Oak to match the hand rail. Perfect method for that, thanks. :thumbsup:


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## BigJim

That is a good way to make a skirt, one thing I have done a little different from this illustration in the link Keith posted is this:
While the uncut skirt board is laying in place as shown, make sure it is tight to the wall and make a mark on the stair tread nosing where the board touches the nosing. 

I square from that mark back about 1 1/4 inches and make a cut leaving the line. Take a chisel and directly over the front edge of the riser, on the tread, chisel the front edge of the tread off flush so the skirt will slide down into the cut. This will save the work of cutting the profile of the nosing out of the skirt board. Be sure to cut flush or a little more out so there is nothing holding the skirt away from the riser. Just a thought.

Another way I have done is using a 1X4, lay it on the front edge of the treads like the uncut skirt is shown in the link Keith posted. Cut several pieces of 1/4 inch plywood or Masonite 9X what ever the run of the tread is, make a notch in the 1/4 inch material, in the top back corner, so it will not touch the nosing when placing it on the step. Slide the 1/4 piece back against the riser, if it needs to be cut to fit the riser or tread because one or the other isn't level or plumb, do so to fit and place the 1/4 piece on the step and staple it into the 1X4. Continue until all steps have been fitted as described. You will have a perfect template to lay on top of the uncut board to mark out your skirt.

Just one more note and I will shut up, when cutting the skirt board if you will undercut or back cut 2 or 3 degrees the skirt will fit tighter. OK, I'm done now.


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## woodnthings

*this may be hipocrisy*

What if you removed a narrow section of the nose next to the stringer to allow the skirt to "notch" into the tread and riser?
It would save sawing the rounded nose shape in the skirt, and just just have 90 degree angles all the way up. In my case where I want to add a 1/4" face to the construction lumber which got painted white... ugh, that would be a time saver for me. :yes:


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## BWSmith

You can take stair construction/design/install as far as you want to go.

The "rules" are many.From a precision standpoint on how far off each rise can be....all the way to the precision one meets when the rise/run are of non-std measures.Church steps with 4" rise requires ? sized tread.And how does old time ratios,differ in this respect,fall into precision in my book because get this one thing the least bit wrong and we have a trip hazzard.......

Further,on precision/trip hazzards are codes when meeting certain out of std rise/run combinations.Precision is arguably the most important feature when building/installing stair systems.Its the old,"gain/loss" thing that creeps in.Imagine laying out a 100' stud wall with a framing sq.....16 o.c.

Now,compare that with laying out the same wall with a 100' tape......with the prescribed correct tension on tape measure(and believe me,if you don't "pull" a tape with an understanding of tension you can set yourself up for some mistakes).......but what happens in the above comparo between sq vs tape is...."gain & loss".And is one of those forgotten "tricks" of times gone by.

Stairs are NO DIFFERENT....99% of builders layout stairs with a bloomin square.Try this....once you've laid out your rough or finished carrige with a sq.....grab a calculator and do the math on your "point to point" measures in a running measure sense and find how much gain/loss your sq just introduced.Point to point here is the points that are created on carriges when laying out.

No big deal on a set of stairs in a typ tract house?Maybe nothing to worry about?Don't know,you may really be bad at marking a framing sq?But lets get a little further down the rd than a sub-division.......Maybe some long stairs.Maybe stairs with landings....curved stairs.I can name a dz instances other than tract house stairs.The point is,use a running measure derived from a calculator(or do math longhand)and "spotting" your points(outside corners on carrige) will ALWAYS be faster and tons more accurate than a framing sq.

And I'll be the last to bust on a quality framing sq.They are fine instruments......it's just that a hundred foot wall....or a 50' long hip rafter......AND STAIRS....you are using the instrument in a fashion that gives up accuracy and precision.Use a tape and do the bloomin math.

On a different note....and not to be the least bit disparaging...but,there are a lot times when stairs are NOT just a continuation of base trim from one floor to the next.Thinking that is just tract house culture.Stairs,just like fireplace walls,entrance doors,and a few other places in your house should,and almost always are(once out of the sub-division),stand alone architectural "elements".The "base" is but a tiny part....look at it as a connecting "line/s" between these elements.In effect,it can stop short of any of these elements to allow them to stand alone.Nothing new here,this stuff has been going on WAY longer than tract housing......

For instance....Lets say we have really deep paneling(with ALL the bells/whistles) and it's changing from full wall height to short paneling going up stairs.What the heck does base have to do with this?Yeah,it needs to be proportioned to the element....yes it needs to be seamless(seamless here dosen't mean unbroken in a connection sense),But it also should NOT take away from elements.The notion that base has to be unbroken is just plain silly.Heck throw a column or 12 in there.....you gonna run base around every column?

Good stuff,nuthin like really nice stairs......and we didn't even touch on handrails(ha).


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## cabinetman

BWSmith said:


> You can take stair construction/design/install as far as you want to go.
> 
> The "rules" are many.From a precision standpoint on how far off each rise can be....all the way to the precision one meets when the rise/run are of non-std measures.Church steps with 4" rise requires ? sized tread.And how does old time ratios,differ in this respect,fall into precision in my book because get this one thing the least bit wrong and we have a trip hazzard.......
> 
> Further,on precision/trip hazzards are codes when meeting certain out of std rise/run combinations.Precision is arguably the most important feature when building/installing stair systems.Its the old,"gain/loss" thing that creeps in.Imagine laying out a 100' stud wall with a framing sq.....16 o.c.
> 
> Now,compare that with laying out the same wall with a 100' tape......with the prescribed correct tension on tape measure(and believe me,if you don't "pull" a tape with an understanding of tension you can set yourself up for some mistakes).......but what happens in the above comparo between sq vs tape is...."gain & loss".And is one of those forgotten "tricks" of times gone by.
> 
> Stairs are NO DIFFERENT....99% of builders layout stairs with a bloomin square.Try this....once you've laid out your rough or finished carrige with a sq.....grab a calculator and do the math on your "point to point" measures in a running measure sense and find how much gain/loss your sq just introduced.Point to point here is the points that are created on carriges when laying out.
> 
> No big deal on a set of stairs in a typ tract house?Maybe nothing to worry about?Don't know,you may really be bad at marking a framing sq?But lets get a little further down the rd than a sub-division.......Maybe some long stairs.Maybe stairs with landings....curved stairs.I can name a dz instances other than tract house stairs.The point is,use a running measure derived from a calculator(or do math longhand)and "spotting" your points(outside corners on carrige) will ALWAYS be faster and tons more accurate than a framing sq.
> 
> And I'll be the last to bust on a quality framing sq.They are fine instruments......it's just that a hundred foot wall....or a 50' long hip rafter......AND STAIRS....you are using the instrument in a fashion that gives up accuracy and precision.Use a tape and do the bloomin math.
> 
> On a different note....and not to be the least bit disparaging...but,there are a lot times when stairs are NOT just a continuation of base trim from one floor to the next.Thinking that is just tract house culture.Stairs,just like fireplace walls,entrance doors,and a few other places in your house should,and almost always are(once out of the sub-division),stand alone architectural "elements".The "base" is but a tiny part....look at it as a connecting "line/s" between these elements.In effect,it can stop short of any of these elements to allow them to stand alone.Nothing new here,this stuff has been going on WAY longer than tract housing......
> 
> For instance....Lets say we have really deep paneling(with ALL the bells/whistles) and it's changing from full wall height to short paneling going up stairs.What the heck does base have to do with this?Yeah,it needs to be proportioned to the element....yes it needs to be seamless(seamless here dosen't mean unbroken in a connection sense),But it also should NOT take away from elements.The notion that base has to be unbroken is just plain silly.Heck throw a column or 12 in there.....you gonna run base around every column?
> 
> Good stuff,nuthin like really nice stairs......and we didn't even touch on handrails(ha).


With that being said...what's your suggestion for a fix?

















.


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## leungw

woodnthings said:


> What if you removed a narrow section of the nose next to the stringer to allow the skirt to "notch" into the tread and riser?
> It would save sawing the rounded nose shape in the skirt, and just just have 90 degree angles all the way up. In my case where I want to add a 1/4" face to the construction lumber which got painted white... ugh, that would be a time saver for me. :yes:


I thought about doing this as well, but the treads are resting on routed grooves on the stringer. I prefer not to cut the bullnose.

But yes, this would be a great time saver.


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## BigJim

woodnthings said:


> What if you removed a narrow section of the nose next to the stringer to allow the skirt to "notch" into the tread and riser?
> It would save sawing the rounded nose shape in the skirt, and just just have 90 degree angles all the way up. In my case where I want to add a 1/4" face to the construction lumber which got painted white... ugh, that would be a time saver for me. :yes:


I must not have explained that well enough, I really am bad at explaining, you explained it correctly. It really would save a lot of time, trying to cut out each nosing in the skirt precisely is not easy, at least for me it isn't. 

Just had a thought on that one, drill a hole the same diameter of the tread is thick, it would sure save a lot of using a saber saw and it would be neater, if the nosing is a true half circle, some aren't.

BW, I hadn't thought of using the point system like you explained, that does make sense. Sorry to hijack the thread.


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## Warped bored

aIf you take a short straight edge and continue the rake line of the skirt on the base until it hits the height of the base minus the part you ripped off then square down, you will get the shape of a transition piece.

Make this the same thickness as the skirt. Now all you need is a board as thick as the skirt (or thinner, you can shim out) and as tall as the flat part of the base. Now you just run the ripped pieces on top of everything. The step will be different but it will be the same on the skirt and base.

Make sense?


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## leungw

Made some progress today. Basically I beefed up the section where the drywall bowed out.


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## leungw

Primed. Going to paint tomorrow.


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## leungw

I also just want to say that I have newfound respect for carpenters who can retrofit the entire skirt board. I had trouble just doing one step. :laughing:


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## woodnthings

*nice fix*

It's not even noticeable and there is no variation in the offset from the drywall. Good idea on tapering the sliver....bet that took a while!


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## leungw

Took me almost two to three hours.... 

I tried scribing, and the piece didn't fit at all. I realized later that the bullnose for the landing is not perfectly horizontal. It slopes down almost 10 degrees and messed up the mark for scribing. Lesson learned.

I spent most of the time on making a tablesaw jig to do the tapered cut.


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