# Tree Felling/Culling



## Pete Collin (Dec 7, 2014)

Hello All,

I just joined this forum. I am a professional consulting forester from Western New York state. We have wonderful hardwood timber here! As a means of introduction, may I post an instructional video I made of how to cull and fell trees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M2tMFshLm0 

Look forward to perusing everybody's projects on these pages!

Peter Collin
www.pcforestry.com


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

I have a question for you, what is a good way to tell soft maples apart from hard maples, I looked at lots of pictures, videos, read descriptions, yet I have a hard time telling them apart, I am from Michigan and I believe most my maples are silver maples, most have smooth bark thou a few have a darker rougher bark, not sure if they are just older or Hard maples, one has a three lobed leaf I think its a black maple but it could be red for all I know, the others I could not tell their leafs apart from the ones I think are silver maples, hence I think they may be older not different, I have 4 maples in my front yard no 2 are alike, not sure if these are just difference between individuals or they are different species.


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## JimMacLachlan (Dec 15, 2014)

Georger, why not call your local Extension office & ask them? Better yet, get yourself this little 'Tree Finder' book & you can figure it out yourself along with a bunch of other trees. It's only $6 from Amazon, less used. 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0912550015/

There is also one by the same authors for winter use. I reviewed it here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/51665805


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## Pete Collin (Dec 7, 2014)

Georger,

When the leaves are on, there is a quick way to tell the difference. All maples have that "Canadian flag" shape to them. If the leaf's edge from one point to the other is toothy, it is a member of the soft maple family. Hard maple species are a smooth line from point to point. 

Hard maple species include sugar maple and black maple. Soft maple species include silver maple and red maple. I don't know west coast species. 

In the winter, there are several ways to tell them apart. The leaf buds of a soft maple are red or pink. A HM' leaf buds are brown. The bark of maples varies a great deal, even within a species. Generally, a soft maples bark is flakier than HM, you can pop flakes off easily. Although a sick HM will have loose bark. SM can grow with bark that's almost as smooth as a beech. SM sometimes gets gill- like patterns on the bark. HM never does. The bark on the upper limbs of SM is generally smooth, not so for HM. If you photograph your trees and post them here I can help you, as long as they are eastern species. 

Peter


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*what's the actual difference?*

Is the wood in a hard Maple actually harder? Does it have more strength? Is it easier to saw than a soft maple?

Are soft Maples like a softwood, like Pine? I don't think so, just asking in general..... :blink:

What would be the applications for each?


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## Pete Collin (Dec 7, 2014)

If you held a piece of hard maple in one hand and soft in the other, it would be obvious which is which. HM is far denser and harder, even though their appearance is very similar. I find HM difficult to work with. It cuts slowly and burns readily from the sawblade. Takes a long time to sand. Won't stain. But its beauty and durability are worth it. It has almost an irridesence to it.

I have thought about experimenting with soft maple lumber, to see if it is any easier to work with for the same attractiveness of the wood. It is way less expensive, at least I know the stumpage prices of SM are about 1/3 that of HM. I know that SM is not soft like a pine. It is a close-grained wood (unlike the open grain of a pine) so you would have to play with it to learn its properties.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

I read several publications by the (local) University of Michigan, it is rather obvious in their illustrations, thou in the field I find characteristics in one tree that are described in more than one species, you did point out some things I never came across in other literature, most articles I read describe a species not quite the differences between the 2.

I know black maple and red maple both have 3 lobed leafs generally yet one is HM one is SM, I'll take some pics when I am out there again, I think most here in Michigan are silver maples, smooth bark, small pointy leafs, also I noticed several specimens with rather coarse  bark at the bottom almost looks like a sugar maple, yet smooth towards the top, I'll have to check the leaf edge next summer, or buds next time I am out in the woods ( when do the buds come out? )

as for hardness the sugar maple is as hard as oak, where some of the soft maples about half the hardness, or so I read at some point


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

here is a large one I am having a hard time labeling, at this time of year it resembles what you describe as a hard maple, the bark has deep grooves and does not peel off easily, could almost use a tool to pop a piece off, the buds look brown, and the bark is coarse alnoast to the top, one of the pics shows where it transitions to a smooth bark those smooth branches are no thicker than my arm, 3 - 4 inch at most I would say

now it is old and it has been dropping limbs during storms, last summer I cleaned it up a bit as one took out the power lines, I took a couple more off at that time, those limbs were almost horizontal, and the lumber did not appear too hard to me, but than again what do I know, fresh wet limbs are softer than dry I guess,


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

now this is what its leafs look like , they are deeply serrated, from what I read that is an indicative of a soft maple and they are quite silver underneath, most maple leafs I ever looked at have some degree of silver underneath, I have seen some specimens with a broader not so deeply serrated leaf, much like what was pictured as sugar maple, yet they are silver underneath too.

most maples in this area have similar looking leafs, they are rather small no larger than my hand, most are half the size 2-3" very few larger, deeply serrated, bright silver underneath.


I have 2 large split maples (silver I suspect) that the bark is smooth from the ground up, the leaves are very similarly looking to this one with coarse bark

a few with 3 lobed broad leaf not so deeply serrated ( red or black cant make up my mind )

let me know what you think of this one I'll get some more/better pics next time I can


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## Pete Collin (Dec 7, 2014)

That looks a whole lot like a silver maple. The way the tree is formed - SM trees have a tendency to grow in clumps (but not always!) like that. And the leaves are very deeply notched. Many of your pictures are in silhouette, so it's a little hard to see. The leaf buds will swell in March and be way easier to see from the ground. That will be your deciding factor - if they are pink. But it sure looks like a silver.

Maple species just seem to vary in appearance more than any other tree.

Pete


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Thank you for the instruction---I think I have been cutting trees wrong for the last 40 years---I'll try your technique next time--


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

Pete Collin said:


> That looks a whole lot like a silver maple. The way the tree is formed - SM trees have a tendency to grow in clumps (but not always!) like that. And the leaves are very deeply notched. Many of your pictures are in silhouette, so it's a little hard to see. The leaf buds will swell in March and be way easier to see from the ground. That will be your deciding factor - if they are pink. But it sure looks like a silver.
> 
> Maple species just seem to vary in appearance more than any other tree.
> 
> Pete


I pretty much called it a silver just based on the leafs, most maples in my area have the same leafs, the bark has some sugar maple characteristics, and the buds look brown at this time but I'll be sure to check again in march, I have lot of maples and I believe most are silver yet there are differences between specimens.

there are a few that have the fuller sugar maple looking like leaf and some I cant decide weather they are red or black .

that one specimen is huge takes 3 people to hug it, I read they are good for about 150 years, this one certainly looks older than that to me, the fence is 6ft for reference, it has been loosing limbs for the past few years, sometimes for no reason ( wind/storm ), its in my moms yard, I think it will have to be taken down at some point.

last picture its trying to show where the bark goes from coarse to smooth, the smooth limbs are about the thickness of my arm


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

mikeswoods said:


> Thank you for the instruction---I think I have been cutting trees wrong for the last 40 years---I'll try your technique next time--


Same here, that does seem like a good way to cut a tree, I really like the part where the saw doesn't get pinched.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

this one is in front of my house, I believe it to be a silver also, I tried to zoom in on the buds, they are a brownish red at this time the leaf I picked off the ground I am pretty sure it belongs to it, I have stared at it a lot this past summer.

looks very similar to the one I posted previously


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

these other 2 have the branches curled up at the tip I read that is an indicative of a red maple, I tried to get a good photo, maybe I'll come back to this come spring, their leafs are a slight different shade than the one previously pictured, but shape wise very similar, red maple is supposed to have a 3 lobed leaf I thought, so these get me confused, 

they are different than the one in front of my house yet similar in leaf shape, either way I am pretty sure they are a SM just not sure what specifically, maybe a hybrid between the 2, some of these trees their petioles are red


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

last for today, most my oaks have leafs as pictured, they are obvious the red type, I think one is a pin oak on is quercus coccinea ( hope I didn't butcher that last one too bad) 

I do appreciate your time and the reassurance, I'll be back here in march trying to sort this out.

I have some land in the woods, almost looks like it had been logged at some point about 40 yrs ago, it is low land and bit swampy, the largest trees were cottonwoods, I went on a obliteration binge and took most down, got a few to go.

most the rest look like Silver Maples, Pin Oaks and some kind of Elm

my other lot nearby also has some Sycamore, a tulip tree ( yellow poplar), and some maples I am not so sure of, thou most of the harder woods are relatively small with few measuring over 12" at the base, which leads me to believe somebody took the good stuff a while ago.

so the reason for trying to identify specific species is because I am selectively cutting it trying to save the good ones and hopefully some years further along I'll have better trees


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

*Very Nice Instructional Video!!*

Pete:

Thanks for posting the instructional video. Your technique is very similar to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teb2bQsqx44.

Eric


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