# pocket hole



## MidGAOutdoor (Apr 7, 2011)

dumb question. is there a way to do something like a pocket hold without the Kreg jig? Dont wanna spend over $100 for a jig. i am trying to make things more professional lookin and hide as many fasteners as possible.


----------



## DavidM (Jan 24, 2011)

You could try the smaller ones. They make one for about $20, $40 etc. each one has its benefits. Once you use it.. You will probably want to get the big one too. Makes things pretty easy. 

Other option is to just learn how to join without fasteners.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

MidGAOutdoor said:


> dumb question. is there a way to do something like a pocket hold without the Kreg jig? Dont wanna spend over $100 for a jig. i am trying to make things more professional lookin and hide as many fasteners as possible.


 
Kreg isn't the only one making pocket hole jigs. General tool has one, maybe not as sophisticated but they carry them at Home Depot, about half the cost if I remember right. I've also seen shop made jigs around for putting them in with a router.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

They have smaller options like mentioned above.


----------



## mickit (Oct 5, 2009)

I have a small single barrel Kreg that I paid 15 for. It lives in my nail apron.Clamps on with a padded vice grip.


----------



## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Me too, paid GP Pds 11, would be $15 in us.
johnep


----------



## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Even the basic $20 Kreg jigs work well. The $40 version should work great for you.


----------



## slicksqueegie (Feb 9, 2011)

here ya go.
http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/pocket-hole.html
HTH


----------



## papagreg (Jan 4, 2011)

Heres a couple.
http://www.bobsplans.com/FreeJigPlans/PocketHoleJig/PocketHoleJig.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=oU...v=onepage&q=shop made pocket hole jig&f=false


----------



## alexfleming9 (Apr 30, 2011)

It is too smaller. I also have one jig that i have gotten in only $35. It is also working nicely and not having any fault till now.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

DavidM said:


> Other option is to just learn how to join without fasteners.


+1. What's wrong with traditional joinery. Woodworking and cabinetmaking seems to be a dieing craft. Traditional joinery has been used for hundreds of years before any alternative came onto the market. There's always something new on the market to make things better and faster. I don't agree that the pocket system is better. In fact, I think it's junk joinery. Reminds me of the quick knock down imported products. 

The joint still exists as basically a butt joint (the weakest of joints), held with a screw at an angle. If the screw did its thing being straight, it would have better holding power, and would account for less "pulling toward the angle". I've used pocket screws to just try them out. I don't agree that it's faster. If you can set up for joinery, a proper glue joint is more predictable without the hassle and without the unsightly holes that are left. 

So, hole covers can be made, and that is an obvious attempt to cover up. I guess it's obvious I don't like them. My feelings are that woodworking forums can be a learning platform for an age old craft. There has to be contrasting points of view. Maybe mine is the voice of reason. I would think I've failed in whatever suggestions were made if they incorporated makeshift procedures just to get by. 

If the planning for the project takes its initial steps, that is to plan the project and designate rabbets and dadoes, and any joinery methods, the setup is quick and the results show. It's hard to believe that a hobbyist has to have what is thought of as a "quick" assembly method. 

The pocket screw idea is not a new one. Before the jigs and special screws went on the market, similar methods were used and they were called "toe screwing" or "toe nailing". Using trim screws is still a popular method where it may be necessary. You can barely see a hole. It's about the size of an 8d finish nail head. 

If you decide to learn woodworking do a little assembly research into "blind screwing", or "blind nailing". Some of the refined techniques don't ever get mentioned until discussions about "fast" and "easy" are brought up. 

The jig system is another way to have you spend money thinking that it's worth the money because it's easier, better, and faster. What I hear is that the users are elated that there is an alternative...why not use it.

I've had this discussion with other shop owners, and would bet that I could machine the parts and assemble as fast or faster than using pocket screws. However you want to join your work is entirely up to you. If you use twine, tie wraps, or 16d nails, it's your decision. If you are using pocket screws, ask yourself if its because they are better than traditional joinery.












 







.


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i was probably with you cman 'til this "... and would bet that I could machine the parts and assemble as fast or faster than using pocket screws" i'd take you up on that one. the pocket hole system changed frace frame process greatly. if you make many cabinets with face frames, they are an improvement in time to any other joinery i know.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

TimPa said:


> i was probably with you cman 'til this "... and would bet that I could machine the parts and assemble as fast or faster than using pocket screws" i'd take you up on that one. the pocket hole system changed frace frame process greatly. if you make many cabinets with face frames, they are an improvement in time to any other joinery i know.


Since doors cover most of the front make frameless cabinets. You'll save time and materials costs. 












 







.


----------



## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

You do you eve need a jig?

I have had a few (and the emphasis is on few) times that I wanted to pocket screw something. As I did not have a jig and did not want to go out and purchases one I did the job the old fashioned way; I just manually held the drill at the angle I wanted.

George


----------



## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

GeorgeC said:


> You do you eve need a jig?
> 
> I have had a few (and the emphasis is on few) times that I wanted to pocket screw something. As I did not have a jig and did not want to go out and purchases one I did the job the old fashioned way; I just manually held the drill at the angle I wanted.
> 
> George


 The first pocket holes I did was with a power drill on a cheep stand that made usable as a small drill press.
While I value Cabinetman's opinion, I do not believe that just because a tool, jig or technique wasn't in use a hundred years ago, doesn't mean you are any less of a wood worker for using it.


----------



## Locodcdude (Oct 24, 2010)

In tech at school we don't have pocket hole jigs, so I improvise by taking a small 3/16" bit and drilling through the piece, then taking a bigger bit the size of the screw head, and drilling down to recess it below the surface. While drilling the bigger hole I'll start perpendicular and then as I'm drilling, move the bit at the angle desired to set the screw into the other board. I typically measure 1 1/2" from the front of the board to the center of my bit. Not the most practical, but it works for the time being when I don't bring my Kreg jig into school.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mveach said:


> The first pocket holes I did was with a power drill on a cheep stand that made usable as a small drill press.
> While I value Cabinetman's opinion, I do not believe that just because a tool, jig or technique wasn't in use a hundred years ago, doesn't mean you are any less of a wood worker for using it.


I didn't suggest that premise. What was done a hundred years ago is and can still be done today, without the cost of a jig, or special screws. Whether using the jig makes one feel less of a woodworker, is best left to self evaluation.:yes:












 







.


----------



## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> I didn't suggest that premise. What was done a hundred years ago is and can still be done today, without the cost of a jig, or special screws. Whether using the jig makes one feel less of a woodworker, is best left to self evaluation.:yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for the misinterpretation of your post. :icon_smile:


----------



## awoodman (Dec 15, 2010)

The Custom Cabinet Industry has spoiled us, face frames face-glued and nailed to a particle board carcase....


----------



## Artisan1993 (Oct 29, 2011)

I agree with cabinet man that pocket holes are not all they're cracked up to be but they can be a very good method for certain applications. I also agree that they are actually not that strong regardless of what Kreg says but they are strong enough if you use glue in the joints as well. I found myself in a spot where I had a few different things that I thought would be easiest with pocket holes and ended out giving in and spending the $100 on the Kreg jig after trying to find an alternate. The main reason I thought it was worth it was how simple to adjust and self explanatory the Kreg jig is compared to other jigs. Let it be know that it is absolutely ridiculous that Kreg asks $100 for a drill bit a square driver some screws and a piece of blue plastic but although over priced, it is a very good jig. Basically my feeling is that unless you hardly ever use pocket holes its worth it, it may be $100, but its $100 dollars for something that you can use for as long as you live. All in all, I think pocket holes are preferable for SOME applications just like every joint has its better uses, I'm just against using them where something else would be better such as the popular trend of using them in place of a mortise+tenon for fastening an apron to a table leg.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Backing the truck up a little.....beep,beep,beep


Pocket hole jigs or fixtures are an adaption of the basic,drill guide.Imagine drilling holes on the bias into the bttm of a stair rail.Without some sort of drill guide,the process usually is just an excercise in frustration.....so we fabricate "dedicted"(to that specific rise/run)drill guide.Understanding a drills geometry goes a long way in explaining why anything but dead sq to surface drilling,requires a guide.Enter Kreg(or whomever).....we can use this "guide" notion to drill an angle'd hole....Then use a screw to accomplish a fastening application.Its nothing that hasn't been done before utilizing shop made guides.Its just that some folks never experienced it.....Voila,"we can market this".

So in some ways its two seperate discussions.Simple,very effective drill guides......vs.......marketing.

I'll buy into the drill guide part of it.And Kreg has made it an easy enough purchase.Albeit limiting in the fact that its still,"just a guide"....and in this case you get what you get,WRT angle of repose.The marketing of the idea gets under my skin a bit however......because it sort of ignores the basis for the idea.And comes across as a "new & improved" method of construction or joinery.Again,ignoring the basis for alternative,more traditional joinery techniques.......in a,its new,so it must be better way.


If I had to list different joinery techniques commonly used here at our shop.....which dosen't have a whole lot to do with someone elses applications,duh.......The "Kreg" pocket hole,would probably be down around 7 or 8 on a scale of 10.It can be useful in certain pain in the arse situations......just sayin.BW


----------



## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Here's the best arguement/statement for pocket holes:



"The strength of a pocket hole joint can be explained with two simple statements. First, a mechanical screw has physical properties that make it stronger than a biscuit, dowel, or tenon. Secondly, the amount of constant clamping force placed on the joint line by driving the screw combined with today’s glue technology makes for an incredibly strong wood-to-wood bond."


A little history:

http://www.toolzone.com/acatalog/kregtoolco.html


----------



## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

I also agree with Cman about pocket screws. While I have used them, its only been on things like tool stands that have to stand up to all kinds of weather conditions and I didn't trust the glue I have on hand to hold for an extended time. When ever I need to make a pocket hole, I just do it with a hand drill and a couple of bits.


----------



## Old Dutchman (Nov 2, 2011)

Ithink that one reason that the pocket hole jig come on so strong is that one of the PBS woodworking shows uses them all the time, and He praises them all the time. I have never used the jig, but I have used the technoligy before there was the pocket hole jig, I believe. Not knowing how to set it up , years ago, I would take a scrap of wood ,and drill the piece of wood from the bottom so the hole was near the center of the first piece of wood.turn it over ,and counter sink the scrap. Set it on another scrap of wood, and drill the hole into the real piece of wood. I do not like to wreck any wood, but it did work. Of coarse, the pieces had to be clamped together. I only used it a few times when I did not want to use traditional jointery meathods.


----------



## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

This guy did a little strength test on his project, using pocket holes:


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/edge-joining-kreg-jig-30927/


----------



## Artisan1993 (Oct 29, 2011)

Yeah I saw that, to me it seams that when glue is used along with the screws its strong, not nearly as strong without. I recently assembled a face frame for a dresser with pocket holes and forgot glue in one of the joints and I can grab the one piece and wiggle it a bit, the rest that have glue are plenty secure.


----------

