# Catches when hollowing out bowl



## Novice turner (Jan 5, 2016)

So I'm just getting started on turning. Finding spindle work fairly straight forward but I seem to get catches when I'm hollowing out bowls. Hoping you experts out there can offer some advice. I'm using a 1/2" bowl gouge, the flute is pointing in the direction of travel (towards the centre of the bowl). Hollowing around the centre is fine but when I'm working around the inner face near the lip I get catches. Hopefully the attached pictures will make it clear. Any advice would be appreciated


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## Novice turner (Jan 5, 2016)

Photos


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

The reason you get catches entering a cut like that is that there isn't any bevel support. There are a couple of solutions. First is to simply start the cut extremely lightly. It will still try to skip on you but since you are taking such an extremely light cut you can control it. I put my thumb on the tool rest right behind the tool and then start the cut as light as possible. Once your into the cut 1/16 or an 1/8" then you have an area for the bevel to ride against and it won't kick back. It is necessary to have the bevel pointed in the direction you want to cut. 
You can start the cut using a parting tool or the nose of a skew. Cut down 1/16" or so in the direction you want to go. then when you put the bowl gouge in there you have that small area of wood to ride the bevel on and it won't kick back. 
OK in reality it can still kick back if you push too hard at this point and don't have the bevel in contact with the wood but with practice you learn to control it.
There is another option but it only works if your going straight it. Let me describe the problem. If you lay the toe of a skew on the turning and it's pointing exactly straight in it will cut without running. If you lean the skew left it will run to the left. Lean it right it will run to the right. You can do the same thing with a bowl gouge but you have to imagine that the flute is one bevel (like one side of the skew which has 2 bevels). If you start the bowl gouge so the bevel and the flute are at the same exact angle it will go in without kicking back. However that's hard to see and quite often you don't want the inside of the bowl to be exactly perpendicular to the lip. So my method of starting the cut really really lightly with your thumb backing it up so it won't run on you.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Your first picture says it all. You have your gouge at roughly a 90 degree angle to the bowl. I realize that the bevel is facing where you want the cut to go but when you start cutting the gouge wants to catch and run towards the outside. Your gouge is unsupported when you start your cut. 

The answer is to swing your tool handle another 45 degrees to the left letting the bevel ride on the top flat edge of your bowl. When you are ready to start cutting inward, slowly bring your tool handle towards where you originally had it positioned in your first picture starting your cut. This will prevent your chances of having a catch because your gouge is firmly seated on the wood BEFORE you start.


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## silentshep (Jan 6, 2016)

I've turned hundreds of wood bowls, mostly segmented. Got tired and frustrated at the catches with the gouges, skews and such. Went over to a 1/2" round flat scraper and used it from start to finish without catches to ruin the work. Roughing to sanding without catches. Sometimes some tools are better used at a slower pace. Practice with some of the fast removal tools to develop proper use/skill. Catches generally ruin the work or make you cut out the bad section which means it was not finished as you wanted. 1/2" flat round scraper for sure, hone(don't grind) the edge. I've given up on skews except for some rough rounding. Most of my skews have been reground into flat round scraper tools. Of coarse if your in production and need fast chip removal then have at it any way you can.


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## Novice turner (Jan 5, 2016)

All great tips guys, thanks very much. Really appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice. I'll give all your suggestions a go.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Well I do not recommend a scraper. Sure you may not get catches but the finish it leaves is frustrating to sand out. A good sharp gouge will leave a finish that requires much less sanding. 
Starting from the lip of the bowl you will still have the same problem as you rotate the gouge out to start the cut. Unless you do it very slowly so that you stay on the bevel it will still kick back. Also it's very hard to get a really clean sharp transition from the lip to the inside. I can do it, but then I've been turning for more than 30 years. 
I"ll try to take a photo this morning showing my hand positions and how to start the tool. My friend John Jordan who is a world famous turning teacher taught me this. His advice, when you start the cut start gently, it will be rejected gently. If you start hard it will be rejected hard and tear up the bowl. His advice was invaluable. By starting gently and backing up the gouge with your thumb so it can't kick back on you will get you going. Check back later. I'll try to get the photo done before I start the rest of my projects in the shop.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

OK here are a couple of photos. First off when you start hollowing out a rough turned bowl the inside is out of round of course. It's very hard to start a cut going down inside the bowl when you have what we call an interrupted cut. That is the tool is hitting the wood part of the time, and air part of the time. To get rid of this out of round quickly and safely I turn the bowl gouge over so the flute is towards the wood. Then I simply push it toward the rim 3 or 4 times to cut down to where you've hit all wood and leave about 1/4 to 3/8" of freshly cut wood. This is very fast and gives your gouge a good solid place to start when entering from the rim. 
The second shot shows how I use an underhand grip with my thumb against the gouge. The thumb acts as a stop to keep the tool from skipping out of the cut. It is really important to start the cut as lightly as possible. Let it cut down about 1/8 to 1/4" and then you can continue the cut as usual because you have good support of the bevel at this point. 

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## TwelveFoot (Dec 30, 2015)

saculnhoj said:


> To get rid of this out of round quickly and safely I turn the bowl gouge over so the flute is towards the wood. Then I simply push it toward the rim 3 or 4 times to cut down to where you've hit all wood and leave about 1/4 to 3/8" of freshly cut wood. This is very fast and gives your gouge a good solid place to start when entering from the rim.


So you've got the flute almost straight towards the wood, using the tool as a scraper? Because in the picture it looks like the flute is mostly pointing up, which can work, but in the hands of a novice not so much.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

In the first photo I am using the tool as a scraper. I'm just trying to get the waste wood out of the way so you have a continuous solid rim to start from. I don't usually do that but I find it really helps new turners. 
IN the second photo I have the flute at about 2 oclock. From about 1:30 to 3 oclock will work well for most new turners. Again the trick is to start really lightly, or gently. I used to think you had to start with the flute at 3 oclock and the handle in far enough that the angle between the bevel and wood and flute and wood is identical. That will always prevent a kick back but it's very difficult to do because you can't see the flute. When you start the cut you actually don't have any bevel support at all but if you start really gently and have your thumb back there to keep it from skating the angle doesn't really matter. 
I do a cut where the flute is straight up. Not something I would teach unless you are already a good turner and I'm standing there to help. the flute up cut puts almost no pressure on the bevel and reduces chatter on really thin bowls. It also cuts really clean because of the way the wood shears across the tip. However if you go even a hair more toward 11:59 you will get one heck of a catch.


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, that gouge position will catch every time. David Ellsworth taught me a neat idea starting at the rim and going all the way to the center and it's not much different than what you're doing. Swing the handle away from you across the lathe bed until it's about a 45 degree angle to the bed. Lower the handle and ROTATE THE FLUTE to about the two o'clock position. Set the point just on the edge, or where ever you're trying to start, and apply light pressure towards the outside of the bowl. That will engage the bevel and keep pressure on it. The trick is the pressure and the angle of the flutes. Use care and don't push too hard or you'll dig in. 

I know that sounds complicated, and, to a degree, it is. But if you ever get the hang of it and practice with it, you'll be able to go from rim to center every time under controlled strokes and leave a very even, finished surface that's a lot easier to sand.

Keep at it. None of us got it right the first time, or every time there after.

Jerry


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## silentshep (Jan 6, 2016)

I do a cut where the flute is straight up. Not something I would teach unless you are already a good turner and I'm standing there to help. the flute up cut puts almost no pressure on the bevel and reduces chatter on really thin bowls. It also cuts really clean because of the way the wood shears across the tip. However if you go even a hair more toward 11:59 you will get one heck of a catch.[/QUOTE]

The question was from a guy just starting out on how to avoid the Catch.. 40 years of experience doesn't help the new guy working in the basement. A hair more than 11:59 may be his problem but in that instant.. how does he know??


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

I believe I answered his question above and them put photos in to answer his question. when you asked if the flute was up I said no, it's pointed about 45 degrees or at about 1:30 or 2 oclock. It was only then that I mentioned the flute up position and explained why I use it and why I don't teach it. The flute up answer was simply to answer your question. Try it sometime. It's a valuable technique to learn for advanced turners.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

silentshep said:


> I've turned hundreds of wood bowls, mostly segmented. Got tired and frustrated at the catches with the gouges, skews and such. Went over to a 1/2" round flat scraper and used it from start to finish without catches to ruin the work. Roughing to sanding without catches. Sometimes some tools are better used at a slower pace. Practice with some of the fast removal tools to develop proper use/skill. Catches generally ruin the work or make you cut out the bad section which means it was not finished as you wanted. 1/2" flat round scraper for sure, hone(don't grind) the edge. I've given up on skews except for some rough rounding. Most of my skews have been reground into flat round scraper tools. Of coarse if your in production and need fast chip removal then have at it any way you can.


Learning to turn with the basic skills to use all the tools available is not about speed -- it's all about the quality of the results although improved speed may be a a side benefit. If you're satisfied with the results of scraping and sanding then that's fine, but being able to skillfully make clean slicing cuts and crisp corners are skills worth pursuing with the goal of enhancing the artistic repertoire of one's work not to mention the quality of the finish.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

This video is about turning coves but the starting cut from the top of the wood down the cove is the same as starting down from the lip of a bowl. I show a couple of techniques. I also show how scraping leaves a less than perfect edge on sharp corners. Hope this will answer some of the questions above. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSybPNw4F1o


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Everything was going fine until at 4:47 in the video you mentioned scooping ice cream. Well, I had to pause the video at that point and scoop out a bowl of Cherry Garcia just to make sure that I have the technique down pat. It may take several attempts on scooping out the ice cream just to make ceretain that I am doing it correctly. :yes:


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

If you didn't get clean shoulders connecting the scoopings then your spoon isn't sharp enough. Either that or the ice cream is too soft.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Never try this on ice cream that has ice crystals in it. This results in too much tear out.


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## Novice turner (Jan 5, 2016)

Thanks for the video saculnhoj. Very informative, it has definitely helped.


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

I am a long long way from being anything near expert but it seems some of the problem may be in semantics. You need to "rub/follow the bevel" and this determines the direction of the cut and maintaining control. 
There is also "point the flute in the direction" but having the flute pointed the right way does not mean you have bevel support.
It may not be part of the problem, your pictures are difficult for my eyes but the wings appear to be very straight up; compare this to the wings on the gouge John show in his pics.

This may or may not help but skip over to about the six minute mark (where bowls start); Raffan give a good example of what may be causing catches.
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOvF5f1phhY


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

TwelveFoot said:


> So you've got the flute almost straight towards the wood, using the tool as a scraper? Because in the picture it looks like the flute is mostly pointing up, which can work, but in the hands of a novice not so much.


The issue is that the reflective surfaces of the bevel can create optical illusions. I see where, as you say, that it appears that the tool seems to be pointing up where a wing could catch. If you zoom in on the image, I think that you will be able to to se a secondary bevel and that the tool actually is at the nine o'clock position to safely scrape a starting step for a bevel gliding cut.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Yes my tools have 3 or more bevels. The main bevel is about 2 or 3 mm at the most. Below that I grind away by moving the Wolverine jig forward in the V slot. Then I pull the tool out of the jig and grind the bottom corner by hand. since only the main bevel really counts I grind the others away. I like the small bevel because you can "feel" the cut better which lets you feed the tool at the best rate to get a clean cut.


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## TwelveFoot (Dec 30, 2015)

Mmhm, you can also get into a tighter spots when you bevel off the heel. I do the same thing. Guess I just didn't look close enough.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

I started beveling the heel many years ago after complaining about getting burrnishing marks inside my bowls. Charles Alvis who was then the AAW president and was in our club said, just grind off that sharp corner on the bottom of the bevel and your burnishing marks will go away. Well he was right. Then somehow over the years I started grinding away more of the bevel.


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