# Ripping Plywood on a contractor saw



## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

This weekend I'm planning to build Norm's clamp cart design, and the first step is to rip 4 4" wide strips out of a sheet of plywood. I'm trying to improve my plywood handling technique.

First off, I AM PLANNING TO PUT THE GUARD ON BEFORE PROCEEDING. Notice the blade is down and the guard is off because I have been rehearsing the cut.

To explain my setup, in the foreground I've got a support table the same height as the saw. To the left of the saw I've got a roller stand, and behind the table I've got a table just slightly below the saw so nothing catches. In rehearsing I was standing at the front left corner (not in front of the saw) and pushing, but I found the plywood came away from the fence in the end, so I clamped the straightedge to the outfeed table to fix that.

Does anyone have suggestions for how to improve this setup? I could swap the roller stand and the foreground table if that was a good idea, but that's all the tables I have (for now).

Thanks in advance.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great planning there guy!*

Don't swap the roller stand, they are notorious for falling over when trying to out feed something. Much better as a support on the infeed.
In your case you do not even need the darn thing, as it's a 3 legged camel anyway. Just work from the side a little more pushing toward the fence as much as pushing forward. :thumbsup: I wouldn't change anything except maybe add a helper on the out feed to maintain control, but not a necesssity, especially if they are a novice! You can do it! :yes: bill
BTW once the material has passed the front of the blade, the width of the cut is determined, so keeping pressure toward the fence is most important there.


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks for the opinion. I'm hoping to have my clamps organized by the end of the weekend


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

How I do it.


























This is my sheet support which I use to set the sheet on the table then I can slide it out of the way to push the sheet through the saw. It is just half lapped so I can take it apart for storage.

The side table is attached in the holes with tabs from mechanical angle cut and bet down to facilitate fast removal. I have a very mobile shop set up.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

By the way...nice shop space from what I can see.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Your setup is basically OK, but I would make my first cut on a piece wide enough (approx 16 1/2") to get all four rips from. That way the narrower piece will be easier to handle and keep against the fence when cutting four.


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> Your setup is basically OK, but I would make my first cut on a piece wide enough (approx 16 1/2") to get all four rips from. That way the narrower piece will be easier to handle and keep against the fence when cutting four.


 
This is definitely the way to go, and it also allows you to use a featherboard.

Paul


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## snowi (Mar 2, 2008)

Nice set up.. 

I don't think that you need the straight edge on your outfeed table, as there is no need for it. The wood is all ready cut by the time it gets there, and it may interfere with the wood after it passes the table saw. 

Of course this is only my opinion. Others may think different.

Ralph


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's why they call you C-Man*



cabinetman said:


> Your setup is basically OK, but I would make my first cut on a piece wide enough (approx 16 1/2") to get all four rips from. That way the narrower piece will be easier to handle and keep against the fence when cutting four.


With this kind of logical thinking you will go far in this line of work!
Best of luck to you and write if you find work. :laughing: Great advice.
:thumbsup: bill


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

Mostly because of space limitations, my age, and a Shopsmith saw, I cut my pieces as Cabinet man suggests except I use a piece of foam insulation on a 4X8 table. Using an edge guide and a circular saw. 
In my old (bigger) shop, I used to cut full 3/4" sheets on the Shopsmith. But, now I can't manhandle them any more. Besides, I found myself cutting gross sizes first, anyway.
Gene


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Its pretty obvious common sense to reduce the size of the sheet first. Doesn't everybody do stuff the easy way?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If they did, we'd have nothing to talk about here!*



mics_54 said:


> Its pretty obvious common sense to reduce the size of the sheet first. Doesn't everybody do stuff the easy way?


 :wallbash::laughing: bill


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

The last project I did I ripped the sheet in half for the first cut. For this project I was planning to rip each piece individually only for the extra experience in making that first rip with a big sheet.


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

mics,

Thanks for the drawing of the additional supports - but you didn't think you were going to do that without my asking how you did that and what you used...  I've got some basic skills with SketchUp, but haven't seen how to do that yet - if that's what you used.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

It's the photo matching function in SU. Basically you import a photo to the SU program and set the axis perspectives to elements within the photo. innit kewl?

I posted a video in the SU thread for photo matching.


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## Bob Willing (Jul 4, 2008)

Gene Howe said:


> Mostly because of space limitations, my age, and a Shopsmith saw, I cut my pieces as Cabinet man suggests except I use a piece of foam insulation on a 4X8 table. Using an edge guide and a circular saw.
> In my old (bigger) shop, I used to cut full 3/4" sheets on the Shopsmith. But, now I can't manhandle them any more. Besides, I found myself cutting gross sizes first, anyway.
> Gene


Gene
I am with you an "C" man. Only I made myself a straight edge from 1/2" plywood cut 14" wide (you can make this wider if you want one side for the saw and the other for a router) and than cut a 3" piece from the 14" wide piece and fastened it to the remaining 10" so that it was 5 1/4" from the edge. How my first cut using the attached 3" as a guide is the exact width of my circular hand saws base plate. All you need to do is mark the width of the desired cut and align it up with the edge of your new giude and clamp it in place. Remember though the cut width is measured from motor side of the saw otherwise your cut will be the thickness of the blade too narrow. I never rip plywood more than 2' wide on my TS. Some of the time I use my trailer with scrap boards laid on top to precut my plywood to managable sizes. I do this right after I bring the plywood home from the store.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> Your setup is basically OK, but I would make my first cut on a piece wide enough (approx 16 1/2") to get all four rips from. That way the narrower piece will be easier to handle and keep against the fence when cutting four.


You always have to be the first...:furious::smile::smile::smile:

Yeap, that's the way that I was going to suggest but Cabinetman....

Regards
niki


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

Well, today I went ahead and made the cuts and it went very well. Because I was going for more big sheet wranging experience I didn't rip the plywood in half first, I made my first rip of 4 1/4 inches, then reset the fence for 4 inches, re-ripped that first piece's other edge, then proceeded to rip a total of 8 4" pieces before doing one more at 3 inches. All cuts came out pretty straight, a few burn marks where I stopped pushing briefly. Using the blade guard DID avoid a kickback once - the blade stopped but I corrected quickly and kept going.

Probably won't have time to finish the project tomorrow, but I'm off to a good start. I'll probably pull together some workshop pictures soon and post them to a gallery here. The good part is I've got a nice space to work in, the down side is that I don't have a walk-out basement so the only way to get equipment/supplies/projects in our out is down a bulkhead door.

Thanks for everyone's advice, the people on this board seem very nice and helpful!


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

*Clamp cart is finished (for now)*

For now I'm finished with the clamp cart I was ripping that plywood for - every clamp I own is mounted on it now, will add pieces to it as I get more clamps.

For the curious I've created a gallery of my basement workshop (see my profile). It's a nice space, the main drawback of which is that there is no walkout - everything goes in or out through a bulkhead door. Woodworking is pure hobby for me and I'm still building skills and setting up the space.

Now I've gotta figure out what's my next project.

Steve


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Where you are standing is part of the problem. You stated "In rehearsing I was standing at the front left corner (not in front of the saw) and pushing, but I found the plywood came away from the fence in the end..." The reason the plywood came away from the fence in the end was because of where you were standing. By standing at the left corner, the laws of physics say that the board is going to cock to the right. With that much overhang on the cut-off side you should be standing almost directly behind the blade to push the board forward with your right hand and slightly to the fence with your left in a coordinated move. Also, do like cabinet man said, only I would give a little extra throw away wood. That would alow you more to trim up a slightly bad cut.


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## sprior (Aug 31, 2008)

Tony,

Thanks for your input. I thought that standing off to the side was a safety measure, user woodnthings even signs every post with "Never stand directly in front of a horse or tablesaw that's running!" So while I can understand the physics issue, is cutting plywood a case where standing in front of the saw can't be avoided?

Steve


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Someone mention my name?*

There is a thread "kickback" and it explains why plywood and other manufactured sheet goods don't tend to kick back, generally. The exceptions to the rule are when the end pulls away from the fence to the left, binds the blade and everything rotates CCW into your belly button. :furious: The "don't stand directly" rule is more for ripping hardwoods and for more narrow stock and for those who don't know anything about horses! :blink: Any wood with "grain" has fibers that run parallel and some that cross over and may be in tension. When the tension is relieved by the saw cut, the wood may close up behind the blade, bind momentarily, and send it directly forward into your belly button, or worse, lower. :furious:  
The purpose of the splitter or riving knife is to prevent to wood from closing back upon itself causing the kickback. Under-powered saws will bog down in the cut and bind up and do the same. Keep a clean blade free from pitch and that will also lessen kickback. JMO's
Another thread is:http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f7/kickback-revisited-10591/
:thumbsup: bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Here's my original post*








*Kickback, lessons learned* 
Most of you already know that a structured wood like plywood or MDF or other manufactured sheet goods "generally speaking" will not close up behind the blade, the cause of most kickbacks, because they are stable. Other "natural woods, like pine and oaks MAY close up the kerf behind the blade and pinch and kick back. Therefore, use a splitter or riving knife which ever works or fits when ripping lumber off trees and when sawing sheet goods it's not "necessary". Don't get me wrong I've had plywood kick back from operator error, but not from the above condition. I was looking at my "welders leather apron" the other day and thought what a great shop apron for table saw duty, especially ripping. It would provide more protection than cotton or poly, IF a kickback should occur. Ballistic nylon would be best, but the best policy is never stand directly behind a horse or a table saw when either is running! :yes:
I have NO spiltter on by sheet goods saw, a Craftsman 12" motorized, but I DO have a splitter on my 12", 5 HP Powermatic used for ripping exclusively. My first cut on that saw when it was new OOTB, was ripping a scrap of pine from a crate. (no splitter, right, you know how to rip. right?) The wood EXPLODED after it pinched the back side of the blade and shot all the way across the shop! No blood no tears, just a whole lot more RESPECT! I also use a zero clearance throat plate at all times. :yes: It helps resist the temptation to go down into the throat plate after a thin sliver gets stuck, while the blade is still spinning. :no::thumbdown: I had a kickback a few days ago, and it actually loosened the blade off the arbor, so I jambed a scrap into in after I had turned the saw off.. WOW! That was scary. Kickback occured when ripping a narrow piece against the fence wasn't pushed completely thru and pushed down as it exited the blade...overarm dust collector in the way! No Blood, no tears, just a lesson learned. :thumbsup: Move the collector out of the way, and a pressure hold down roller behind the blade might have helped. That's why I'm am passing on this rather wordy response. Bad advice is plentiful, Good advice...priceless. Off for now, Bill:smile:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The 'where to stand' issue is not a cut and dry issue. For those that have spent a lot of time using table saws it becomes apparent that what is being cut and its size will, more or less, dictate the best body position. The theory of 'not in a direct line' seems to make sense, but more importantly, if your body position makes the procedure uncomfortable or awkward, that in itself could present a more dangerous scenario, and put you at risk.

Minimizing the possibility of kickback can be done with just good operating procedure. 
*
**Making sure the stock stays tight against the fence for the complete cut and pushed beyond the blade. 

***Watching the stock edge along its path at the fence and NOT looking at the blade. 

***Using a feed rate commensurate with the stock and blade, so as not to labor the cut. 

***Using a smooth feed rate as possible when changing hands, or taking a step or two. 

***Use featherboards and push sticks when applicable.

***Use eye and hearing protection.

***Moving/removing materials after the cut from behind the blade, or during the cut with the blade running is one of the common times table saw injuries occur. Placing your hand anywhere near or beyond the blade should be done with the saw turned 'OFF'. If that HAS to be done, extreme care has to be taken and paying attention to what you're doing is critical.

***I can't say this enough - paying attention to, and concentrating on what you're doing. 

***If there is any doubt about the safety of the procedure, re-evaluate the issues before starting.












 





 






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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> ***Watching the stock edge along its path at the fence and NOT looking at the blade.
> 
> 
> ​


Yes, but what is your answer to all those guys that clam " the blade guard is dangerous to use because I don't see how the blade is cutting the wood and I MUST see how the blade is cutting"...

Once, I replied "So maybe stick your head under the planer/thicknesser cutting blade because if you'll not see how the cutter is cutting - it's dangerous" (no, there was no reply to it)....

IMO, there are 2 kinds of Kickback;
A "Push back kickback - i.e. the workpiece is pushed back directly...in this case standing directly behind the work piece may cause an injury. 

An "Over the Top" kickback that the workpiece is lifted up on top of the blade teeth, turned counter-clockwise and propelled back from the left side of the blade....So standing on the left of the blade, is like standing in front of the Tank shell....as you can see it here 
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/ 


And here




 note where the operator is standing - and he knows why..... 

More info about kickback you can see here
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Tablesaw/tablesaw.htm

To minimize the kickback risk;
1. Use a splitter or riving knife.

2. Use a feather board (as possible - with very large sheets it might be impossible).

3. Use a "hold down" device like this one http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11262&cookietest=1

4. IMO, using the blade guard, will dampen the severity of the kickback or even prevent it by not letting the workpiece to climb on top of the blade.

5.IMO, using a "low fence" can minimize the risk of kickback...When I'm saying "Low fence" I mean, a rip fence that is 1/2" or so high above the table....lets say the truth - what for you need a 3" high rip fence when you are ripping 1/2" or 3/4" or even 2" thick boards (I use the "High fence" only for Resawing)...

Please have a look at the 2 pics below to see what I mean "Low fence" and "High fence".

There is another thing to minimize the kickback risk but, I will not mention it because Cabinetman will "get on me" 

Regards
niki


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

sprior said:


> Tony,....I thought that standing off to the side was a safety measure, ........So while I can understand the physics issue, is cutting plywood a case where standing in front of the saw can't be avoided?
> 
> Steve


Safety on the table saw includes being at a proper position to push a board through with a minimal amount of effort and a maximum amount of balance for both you and the wood. This does not matter whether it is a narrow board or a wide piece of plywood. If you are in an awkward position just to avoid being in line with the blade you will eventually get injured. You can not have full concentration on your cut if you are also worried about where you are standing. The combination of logic, comfort, balance , body mechanics and physics should determine where you stand. If you feel like making dry runs, set up your fence, lower the blade below the table top and push the board through as if you were making a cut. After a few trys, you will soon see what "feels" right and don't worry about where you are standing. To make this short 'do what comes natural'.
As for other safety issues, Cabinetman covered them pretty well.


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## eezlock (Mar 2, 2007)

*ripping plywood on a contractor's saw*

I think all the effort you have put into the planned cut is good...to a point. If it were me, I would use my circular saw, a good clamped straight edge, and make that cuts(s). You will find after a while, that doing all that lifting and pulling heavy sheets of plywood around are no fun when you are doing it without any help! The clamped straight edge
is a lot easier on your back, slide the sheet over the edge of your worktable and make the cuts without a lot of pushing and straining
to keep everything in line with the fence and cutting straight.


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## Kevin Thomas (Oct 25, 2010)

That's an awesome project you built. I have had a lot of experience with similar types of rips working in a cabinet shop for several years. I recommend whenever you make cuts like this, if you can get another set of hands to help out that would be worth a lot. 

Make sure if someone is on the receiving end of a cut like that that they don't pull the material, but just support it's weight, keeping it flat on the saw's surface. The person feeding the materials should be focused on keeping the plywood pressed gently against the fence. If you press to hard the wood will bind the saw, and it will throw off the cut, or even jam up the saw. If you don't press enough then the cut wont be perfectly straight. 

Also be sure that the fence isn't crooked. You can do this with a piece of scrap wood that is straight. Hold the scrap against the blade on the opposite side (with the saw unplugged). Then use your tape measure to measure the distance from the scrap wood to the fence in various spots. If the fence is crooked this too can bind the blade, causing it to get dangerous when cutting.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

The most important safety device when ripping sheet goods is a large out feed table. It is the one part of the sheet that you can not control. If you MUST use a helper for out feed support, instruct them to support only. They should NOT pull, guide or cause the kerf to pinch.

Cutting full size sheets with a good sized out feed table by yourself can be easily accomplished safely. As Mike has suggested is to consider the off fall first. If one of your pieces needs to be 12" wide, can you cut it 12-1/2" wide and still have enough material for the rest of your project? It doesn't matter if you cut a piece twice to the exact size.

To cut a full sheet, lean the leading edge of the sheet against the table top and several inches from the blade. Crawl under the sheet and start the saw. Pick up the sheet, left hand at the left corner, right hand to the right of the cut if possible. The left hand should push the sheet toward the far right corner. The right hand should help to feed the sheet through the saw. As the sheet enters the cut, the left hand should exert force in the general direction of just before the cut. (i.e. Blade) The main job of the left hand is to keep the sheet against the fence while the right hand feeds the sheet.

As the sheet attains equilibrium balance the left hand continues the force toward the fence. Make a deliberate move of your right hand to be sure that it will not enter the cut.

Continue moving the sheet through the cut as you would with a normal rip cut and not push the off fall into the blade. As the cut is almost finished (3/4"), put your left hand behind your back and continue feeding the sheet with your right hand past the blade.

I'll repeat it, the out feed table is one of the most important safety devices for a table saw.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

We have a little saying here at the shop........."Lumber wrestling is NOT a sport".If you find yourself struggling,stop and re-access.BW


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