# Pocket hole joint frustrations



## Bluefilosoff (Mar 25, 2013)

I have no problems using a pocket hole joint with hardwoods but whenever I try with softwoods (spruce) I keep punching the screw straight through and if I try to ease off the joint seems a bit loose (this is even with wider threaded screws). Any ideas on what I am missing or are these joints meant for hardwoods only? Thanks!


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Bluefilosoff said:


> I have no problems using a pocket hole joint with hardwoods but whenever I try with softwoods (spruce) I keep punching the screw straight through and if I try to ease off the joint seems a bit loose (this is even with wider threaded screws). Any ideas on what I am missing or are these joints meant for hardwoods only? Thanks!


Pockets aren't as easy as Kreg likes to make you think. The charts they supply aren't cut and dried but need to be adjusted some to accomadate different materials and other factors. Can't be sure but I suspect the soft wood is compressing more than the hardwood so I would try adjusting the bit stop collar to produce a shallower pocket. I am also assuming that you are following the chart concerning screw length. The other thing is stock thickness, I've found anything less than 1/2" is dicey at best.
Good Luck :smile:


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## Bluefilosoff (Mar 25, 2013)

I bought a jig which supposedly sets for different stock thicknesses (see photo) but still had the problem. I guess it's an acquired skill, like pie crust. Will keep experimenting, that's the fun of it. 
Thanks!


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

What is the thickness of your material and what length if screw are you using? My big box store does not carry the length of screw I most commonly use.


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## Bluefilosoff (Mar 25, 2013)

Ttharp said:


> What is the thickness of your material and what length if screw are you using? My big box store does not carry the length of screw I most commonly use.


Hello,
Usually dimensional limber sizes, 3/4, 1 1/2. The jig has a gauge which tells me what length of screw to use. I follow that but no luck with the softwoods. I have been using screws with wider threads but still punch the head through. One would think that with the proper settings one could tighten things as required. And yes my big box store carries only fine thread pocket hole screws (no thanks to them), so have experimenting with drywall screws etc. Very frustrating.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Bluefilosoff said:


> Hello,
> Usually dimensional limber sizes, 3/4, 1 1/2. The jig has a gauge which tells me what length of screw to use. I follow that but no luck with the softwoods. I have been using screws with wider threads but still punch the head through. One would think that with the proper settings one could tighten things as required. And yes my big box store carries only fine thread pocket hole screws (no thanks to them), so have experimenting with drywall screws etc. Very frustrating.


Problem with drywall screws and pocket holes is that the screws are threaded from the tip to the head. Pocket holes really want that smooth shank below the head to pull the joint tight. Might try sears, they carry a pretty good selection of Kreg screws. Your particular store may not stock them but you may be able to get them to order some for you along with their regular shipments and avoid shipping charges. :smile:
http://www.sears.com/tools-power-to...t=true&viewItems=50&redirectType=CAT_REC_PRED


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

You might want to try an alternative form of joinery.









 







.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> You might want to try an alternative form of joinery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could see that reply coming a mile away!:laughing:


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## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

As mentioned you move the collar to maintain a bit more wood though you want the threads all in the deeper board. It is also important to have and use a drill with clutch settings. This keeps the screws from stripping and is also important when using brass or other fine screws. I start with the clutch too loose and tighten it to only the desired force.
Some really soft wood is just likely not appropriate for pocket screws but they are great on woods dense enough to stand the stresses.
Bob


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## GoIrish (Jan 29, 2012)

jschaben said:


> Problem with drywall screws and pocket holes is that the screws are threaded from the tip to the head. Pocket holes really want that smooth shank below the head to pull the joint tight. Might try sears, they carry a pretty good selection of Kreg screws. Your particular store may not stock them but you may be able to get them to order some for you along with their regular shipments and avoid shipping charges. :smile:
> http://www.sears.com/tools-power-tool-accessories-specialty-accessories-jigs/s-1023098?keyword=kreg+5000+screws&autoRedirect=true&viewItems=50&redirectType=CAT_REC_PRED


Drywall screws are not pan heads so they will sink into the wood more than the Kreg screws.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Bluefilosoff said:


> Hello,
> Usually dimensional limber sizes, 3/4, 1 1/2. The jig has a gauge which tells me what length of screw to use. I follow that but no luck with the softwoods. I have been using screws with wider threads but still punch the head through. One would think that with the proper settings one could tighten things as required. And yes my big box store carries only fine thread pocket hole screws (no thanks to them), so have experimenting with drywall screws etc. Very frustrating.


Find a source of coarse pocket screws. Using a screw not designed for the system is likely the reason you have issues.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Are you clamping both pieces together during the screw installation?


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## Bluefilosoff (Mar 25, 2013)

mics_54 said:


> Are you clamping both pieces together during the screw installation?


Will try that. It may be that the softwoods I use are too soft. Thanks for the help!


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

As Leo suggested.... The drill bit is the big problem.

The first thing that I noticed was the drill bit. It is just a nice taper bit with a stop collar. The Kreg system requires a drill bit that creates a shoulder in the hole. Then the Kreg screws have a place to hold without pulling through.

I have used the Kreg system on a poplar face frame with no problems at all. I did use Kreg washer head screws and the appropriate drill bit. The drill bit is expensive, like $20 or more but is the correct drill bit for the job. This drill bit (Difficult to describe w/o getting banned.) is really two drill bits in one. The front of the drill bit has a 5/8" long bit that is intended to be a body drill for the Kreg screw shank. The rest of the drill bit will cut a 3/8" hole with a flat bottom. When used in a pocket joint fixture, the point of the drill bit should barely protrude through the wood. 

The effect of using this drill bit is similar to using a 3/8" Forstner bit to drill to a depth that leaves 5/8" material undrilled. Then use a 5/32" bit to drill through the remaining material.


There are a few things unique about the Kreg screws. The 1-1/4" screws are a true washer head screw while the shorter screws have a smaller head. The underside of these screw heads are square to the shank of the screw. The Kreg screw is a clamping device. Finally the Kreg screw is a self drilling screw. (Similar to a self tapping metal screw.) The Kreg screw has a Robertson (a.k.a. square) drive. HOWEVER all Robertson drive screws are not pocket screws.


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 16, 2013)

Compare the picture of a pocket hole bit here http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/kreg/kreg-3-8-step-drill-bit-for-k200 with the bit you are using. It will help explain rrich's post. The bit you are using doesn't have a shoulder for the screw head to leverage against.


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

I keep a small package of compatible washers with my PH jig.

If the screw protrudes a little on my test pieces and I don't have a lot of joints to do I'll slip a couple of washers on each screw rather than messing with a jig adjustment.


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## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

jharris2 said:


> I keep a small package of compatible washers with my PH jig.
> 
> If the screw protrudes a little on my test pieces and I don't have a lot of joints to do I'll slip a couple of washers on each screw rather than messing with a jig adjustment.


`
if it is literally a tip of the screw poking thru, I drive the screws almost all the way in then pull them and clip the last twist or ~3/16 from the tip with side cutters then drive them in. this avoids the breakthru and keeps the part of the screws doing the holding. - the whole screw drills and taps the hole.
Bob


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

mengtian said:


> You could see that reply coming a mile away!:laughing:



Just a mile.:laughing:


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

jschaben said:


> Problem with drywall screws and pocket holes is that the screws are threaded from the tip to the head. Pocket holes really want that smooth shank below the head to pull the joint tight. Might try sears, they carry a pretty good selection of Kreg screws. Your particular store may not stock them but you may be able to get them to order some for you along with their regular shipments and avoid shipping charges. :smile:
> http://www.sears.com/tools-power-tool-accessories-specialty-accessories-jigs/s-1023098?keyword=kreg+5000+screws&autoRedirect=true&viewItems=50&redirectType=CAT_REC_PRED


I was surprised to find pocket hole screws in the hardware section of Lowes. 

They are on the aisle of packaged and bulk screws in the "specialty screw" section.

If I remember correctly they were less expensive than the Kreg screws found in the tool department and they had a fair selection of sizes and tpi's.


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## JerryO (Jul 26, 2010)

I used to have a problem till i started to use fine screws for hard woods and coarse for soft woods. I have found a supply available at loews and home depot. My local hardware store has them now too. They also sell them at woodworking shows and events and on line.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Sorry guys, only a few answered correctly......PROPER SCREW for the PROPER JOB....and one final could be the bit. Somewhere I musta missed the pics somebody mentioned.

From what I've gathered from OP is he's trying to make a drywall screw do a pocketscrew's designs job. Drywall screws are bugle head designed to spread out the paper/countersink and hold a grip without splitting the paper face (the main strength of drywall).....so when he's installing in the soft wood it just spreads and buries deeper punching out the other side....where the pocketscrew (I prefer the full head kregs) has a good square shoulder to pull the joint together.

I haven't decided if this may be an error of lack of knowledge ...or of trying to save too many pennies ???? I don't know...BUT a pocketscrew has it's WONDERFUL places in my workspace and I've never had any problems provided I used as recommended and as Cabinetman stated maybe another form of joinery is needed, but if ya cut corners there too you'll still be in the same boat....sinking.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love,
Tim


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## Rob Schramm (Jul 12, 2010)

I have been using Kreg's tools for over 8 years now. I started with there master pocket hole system and never turned back. If you think that Kregs system is not cut and dry on how to use then you need to invest in the videos. There is no way to get a screw to blow out the other side in softwood UNLESS you are thinner then then 3/4". I mill all my own wood. I get all wood from a mill instead of the box stores as there wood is not dried to 6%. They also very in thickness from time to time. Invest in a thickness caliper to check thickness of all wood that you are working with. If you are under 3/4" in any wood and you are set at 3/4" it will blow out. Use fine screws 1 1/4" (only from Kreg) for hardwood and course screws 1 1/4" (only from Kreg) on all 3/4" material. You can buy any pocket hole system that you want but with all tools if you do not know how to use it, read the manual or watch the video cause normally its not the tool its the user. Kreg might not be for everyone but I have walked into a lot of wood shops and cabinet shops and they all have some sort of pocket hole system (90% are Kreg). 

Rob


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## Midwest Millworks (Nov 20, 2012)

If your screws are poking through, you are either drilling your pocket hole too deep, and or using the wrong screws. 

Mike Darr


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## Bluefilosoff (Mar 25, 2013)

Figured it out thanks to this forum. I was using the wrong screws. I started out using the fine thread screws that the jig came with on soft spruce and the threads kept stripping out. Next I tried coarse threaded drywall screws because I could not find coarse pocket screws and of "coarse" the threads pulled the head of the screw right through the stock. I now have found the correct coarse Kreg screws (very inexpensive by the way), and everything works just fine. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions!!!


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Right tool for the right job


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## Rob Schramm (Jul 12, 2010)

Leo G said:


> Right tool for the right job


Couldnt agree more, but with that said we all mistakes and it is nice to have a place to kick your issues off of others with the same interests.

Rob


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I nevr maak misteaks :laughing:


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I nevr maak misteaks :laughing:


You're missing an "r" in mistreak.


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## Bob Wingard (Jul 23, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> You might want to try an alternative form of joinery.



Right ... and, in the meantime ... YOU might consider the goals of the question. He asked for help perfecting the already chosen method of joinery ... NOT ... snide comments which offer absolutely nothing of substance relative to the problem at hand.

The RIGHT screw ... drilled & driven to the RIGHT depth for the material being used will yield a perfectly strong joint for the task at hand.


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