# Questions about Wood Grain Filler



## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

I have a project that is almost ready for finishing and plan on using wood grain filler on it. In my research on using the filler it seems the most popular approach is to brush apply it and then wipe off the excess using a squeegee. However, my project has so many nooks and crannies and other places a brush and squeegee won't work that I've decided on using a paint gun to spray on the two or three coats.

I'm using J.E. Moser's Grain - Fil and the wood it's going on is called Sapele Heavy Ribbon, which is a wood that comes from the mahogany family (crapy wood to work with).

What I need are tips on spraying on and finishing the wood grain filler. Examples are: 

1) Heavy or light coats and how many coats?
2) Sanding between coats or sanding the final coat only?
3) Sand Paper grits to use?
4) Anything else you can think of?

Thanks in advance ...... Bud


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

hoops said:


> I have a project that is almost ready for finishing and plan on using wood grain filler on it. In my research on using the filler it seems the most popular approach is to brush apply it and then wipe off the excess using a squeegee. However, my project has so many nooks and crannies and other places a brush and squeegee won't work that I've decided on using a paint gun to spray on the two or three coats.
> 
> I'm using J.E. Moser's Grain - Fil and the wood it's going on is called Sapele Heavy Ribbon, which is a wood that comes from the mahogany family (crapy wood to work with).
> 
> ...


You'd be much better off using a traditional grain filler like Behlen's "pore o pac" unless there is some unknown need for the speed of an acrylic base clear, such as your going to use. It is always best to dye/stain your wood first then apply the traditional filler over a coat of finish, usually sanding sealer if a nitro type or vinyl, if a conversion type. Behlens can be then color tinted with japan colors or oil, but "preferrably" japan, applied and sprayed over in as little as four hours, unlike the older traditional linseed oil based ones, before alkyd types, were introduced. If you decide to go traditional, then the schedule would be as such:

Dye/stain color your wood, allow to dry,

seal the wood with a 50/50 coat of sealer , allow to dry

brush or card on the pastewood filler a sq ft or two at a time,
remove with burlap going across the grain

wipe down again with fresh clean burlap making sure to remove excess in corners/profiles/carvings, etc..

what is not capable of removing this way can be removes with plastic spatulas/pointed dowels wrapped in cloth/or other such tools.

Let filler dry 4 or more hours [depending on weather/humidity/heat/cold.

Sand surface lightly 320 grit or finer to remove any residual filler that may be on the coating surface.

apply another 50/50 coat of sealer or a full coat, depending on type.

sand 320, and continue building if no more color work [toning/glazing/etc. is needed or desired.

This should be done on flat surface areas in which the surface it truly flat, meaning no ridges or hills ect. that may cause sanding through to the stain ok? the flatter and smoother the surface, the better the over-all results.

From here, it is your baby to finish off as needed. :yes:

I will let others guide you in the use and application of the other type


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

*Chemmy*

Funny, I did a lot of research on forums and J.E. Moser's Grain - Fil seemed to be the most popular so that's what I bought :laughing:

Anyhow, thanks for the great information. I will rethink the burlap approach versus spraying.

To confirm what you're saying; you're saying after staining use sanding sealer first, then grain filler and then sanding sealer again with sanding after all coats. Have I got that right?

You know, I've never thought about buying burlap and I don't recall seeng it in any hardware stores. Any suggestions on a source?

Thanks again for great instructions ...... Bud


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

hoops said:


> Funny, I did a lot of research on forums and J.E. Moser's Grain - Fil seemed to be the most popular so that's what I bought :laughing:
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for the great information. I will rethink the burlap approach versus spraying.
> 
> ...


Hi Bud, The main reason the factories and other concerns used a seal coat between the wood color and the filler, was because the filler itself was colored and would add to the color already achieved thus changing it. with the seal this stopped it from happening and just colored the grain only. Though some companies i know actually did skip this step and would work out the final color by using the dye and then direct application of the colored filler over it. The cleanest look though is always with the sealer in between. 

yes, dye/seal/sand/fill/seal/and continue on following the other things closely ok?

The burlap used to be pretty available at cloth stores and again is almost always available from upholstery businesses, where it is used in re-upholstery in and over the springs of older furniture. I'm sure if you google you can probably find also.


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Hi Chemmy, First of all thank you for all the info I've read on this site for quite awhile now from you and others. Have a ? on this subject so finally registered. 

In giving steps for Hoops situation you start off with Dye/stain color your wood, allow to dry. If he was wanting to ensure no blochyness and had end grain that he wanted to match the face grain would he start out with a wash coat of (Shellac cut at 1lb.) or glue size, or something else that is compatible before putting any dye on? 

Thanks again,
Woodress


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Woodress said:


> Hi Chemmy, First of all thank you for all the info I've read on this site for quite awhile now from you and others. Have a ? on this subject so finally registered.
> 
> In giving steps for Hoops situation you start off with Dye/stain color your wood, allow to dry. If he was wanting to ensure no blotchiness and had end grain that he wanted to match the face grain would he start out with a wash coat of (Shellac cut at 1lb.) or glue size, or something else that is compatible before putting any dye on?
> 
> ...


That requires breaking the process down further Woodress, glue size would be preferred if a "pigment" type stain would be applied, the reason, a Water base dye would penetrate the glue to a degree and still darken the end grain. When used on a face grain, it does the same also but as you know, that's the main reason for using it, you want controlled penetration. 

With shellac, your able to do either dye or pigment stain on the end grain, as long as the water dye is wiped off quickly, as to not blush a fresh coat of shellac. 

Early factory use, when it was commonly practiced much more than today, there were several methods very similar in approach and each firm would adopt which one worked best for their situations. 

Cabinet makers cement, [ a wood base dry powder mixed with water] would be used to fill the end grain let dry and sanded flush. With the sanding, the direction of the paper would be in one direction only to make sure that the grain edges were all going in one direction. Once the putty had dried it was waterproof and would be followed with a quick wash of potassium permanganate again followed right after the oxidation with sodium hypochlorite [typical photographer's hypo solution] this 2 part process lightened the end grain considerably enough that a diluted solution of the face grain formula could be applied for a good blend of the two, after the first coat of sealer. 

This could also be done by omitting the filler and just using the PP and hypo processes. By the 30-40's hardly anyone was doing anything past paste wood filler on both face and end grain, and maybe the mono-directional sanding. as of late, i would say if one is not looking for dark end grain they would most likely just veneer the edges with face grain veneer if flat or use half round moulding applications or other profiles. 

sincerely,

Chemmy


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Chemmy,

Yes, I got the glue size is for, oil based stains, and alcohol-based stains but not water-based stains. And Shellac is for water based, oil based stains, but not for alcohol-based stains. And I wish I could say I got everything after that, but.....I didn't 

If he is working with a wood that is know to blotch, or just wanted to play it safe. Was that a yes, use a wash coat before starting the process? Also when you said seal the wood with a 50/50 coat of sealer , allow to dry. What sealer are you using, and what are you mixing it with?

Thanks for you help
Woodress


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Woodress said:


> Chemmy,
> 
> Yes, I got the glue size is for, oil based stains, and alcohol-based stains but not water-based stains. And Shellac is for water based, oil based stains, but not for alcohol-based stains. And I wish I could say I got everything after that, but.....I didn't
> 
> ...


I normally use sealers either nitrocellulose/acrylic/or vinyl. They all run about 21-23 % solids so by rducing 1 part thinner to 1 part finish you get around a 11% coating or 1/3rd mil dry, if applying 4 mil wet. mix with reccomended thinner. this is more than for stopping blotchyness, silex in the filler may cut through a thinner wash coat [4-5%] i play it safe and use no less than 10% solids at minmum persaonally.


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

ok I'm getting you now. I see on here it sounds like you pretty much prefer to spray your steps as much as possible... Do you use a downdraft box, if not what do you use for ventilation? And is that why you use either a nitrocellulose/acrylic/vinyl sealers? Trying to K.I.S.S it here a bit.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Woodress said:


> ok I'm getting you now. I see on here it sounds like you pretty much prefer to spray your steps as much as possible... Do you use a downdraft box, if not what do you use for ventilation? And is that why you use either a nitrocellulose/acrylic/vinyl sealers? Trying to K.I.S.S it here a bit.


lol, i always had a spraybooth, be it binks/devilbiss/custom/other.. no need for a downdraft booth. Yes, i spray as much as possible, saves time. better more uniform results. 

You don't have to use sealers, i just prefer them for ease of sanding after the filler is applied and the film is left on the surface makes it easier to remove after drying. But almost any clear coat can be used if thinned out enough, even 2k urethanes.


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Re: lol, i always had a spraybooth. Omgsh...lol thanks for participating in my dose of envy for the month. Womanly mega multitasker here gettin it done.:laughing: Would love to have the room to do a spraybooth... and maybe in Spring I can get something worked out where I can do a little spraying. But I'm working with a 10' X 20' garage/workshop we built couple yrs. ago. Went small 200sqft. to stay away from the permits, our town would love to charge you to breathe if they could. Money wise it made much better since, and we're just crazy enough, to do build it ourselves w/ paying someone to prepare & pour the concrete for $3,800 total from start to finish with a box on nails left over. Than to buy some not as big or pitch pre-built thing we can't do anything in for 4,800. But, we also paid in whole body bruising, cuts, scrapes, and by the end hangovers.:yes:

I'm really wanting to use a sealer leaning way towards Shellac... since from what I'm gathering is the all around on the water soluble side. But then moving to poly in very thin coats, if not diluted a bit with something if it'll help no bubbling.

Crazy as it sounds I have a financial habit to read _a lot_ before I go and buy stuff I _don't_ really want so ?? How crazy are the fumes for alcohol-based stains?? Would a resp. do? I can't help be tempted by the quicker than water dry time.
Tky agian:smile:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Woodress said:


> Re: lol, i always had a spraybooth. Omgsh...lol thanks for participating in my dose of envy for the month. Womanly mega multitasker here gettin it done.:laughing: Would love to have the room to do a spraybooth... and maybe in Spring I can get something worked out where I can do a little spraying. But I'm working with a 10' X 20' garage/workshop we built couple yrs. ago. Went small 200sqft. to stay away from the permits, our town would love to charge you to breathe if they could. Money wise it made much better since, and we're just crazy enough, to do build it ourselves w/ paying someone to prepare & pour the concrete for $3,800 total from start to finish with a box on nails left over. Than to buy some not as big or pitch pre-built thing we can't do anything in for 4,800. But, we also paid in whole body bruising, cuts, scrapes, and by the end hangovers.:yes:
> 
> I'm really wanting to use a sealer leaning way towards Shellac... since from what I'm gathering is the all around on the water soluble side. But then moving to poly in very thin coats, if not diluted a bit with something if it'll help no bubbling.
> 
> ...


Wow!! now i understand your position much more clearly. If i may i would advise you to look into friction polishing [french polishing] techniques if i were in your situation that's what i would do. 





 
Watch this first and if it interest you, then order his dvd ok? this is the only guy on there that knows what he's doing, so ignore the others, this is pretty much how i was taught 50 years ago, ok?


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

You guys are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your talking about end grain is a life saver as I have tried to figure out what do about it. You wouldn't believe how much time I've spent sitting at the work bench and looking at the end grain and trying to figure out what to do about it.

I'm fairly certain the person I'm building this for wants to use oil base dye/stain so I'm hoping the idea about glue size or shellac will work because getting into things like potassium permanganate & sodium hypochlorite is way over my head.

If I can use glue size do you have any tips on application, etc?

Another thing I've spent a lot of time thinking about is some wood tear out. I have some of that to contend with. I read at one site that epoxy works well to hide those. Do you guys agree or have a better way of dealing with the tear out?

Thanks .... Bud


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

oh my do I ... I ... I really get to pay it forward??? Oh how very cool this works.

yes, in one step... Apply drops of CA glue into the tearout spots and immediately sand the area. Dust from the sanding will blend with the glue, so turn the paper frequently. Allow the glue to dry for an hour. This is a quick, invisible way to repair tiny defects (see Figure 3.31). LOL... I typed it straight out of that book I'm in love with... Foolproof Wood Finishing. But I know sanding dust is invaluable mixed with a little CA glue when I do inlays.
Oh, so glad to help...:smile:


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

I will add another thought..now that I think about it more... That fix is for small tearout which is what I get doing inlays. Might be another way for larger ones.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

hoops said:


> I have a project that is almost ready for finishing and plan on using wood grain filler on it.


There are some very basics to finishing that get lost in translation. Some endgrain porosity can be solved with just sanding to higher grits than the face grain. Try that first before you get all involved with what to do.

There should be a determination of what you want the finish to look and feel like. For some finishes, just sanding, stain (or not), sealer and topcoat will provide a very nice finish. With that, of course there is sanding between coatings. 

For a filled slick finish, where some of the grain deviation is gone, there are fill techniques to accomplish that. You can use a solvent based grain filler...AKA paste wood filler. When mixed, would be about the consistency of loose mayonnaise. It gets spread out and into the grain. For tight areas, can be brushed in. In following directions, it gets ragged off, and then sanded. It's easy to do, just another step. 

Or, any of the film topcoats can be applied either by spraying or brushing. When a sufficient build is achieved can be wet sanded and polished out. I would not recommend shellac. IMO it's just too soft and lacks the durability of other film finishes.

It would be nice to spray, but a filler/sealer can be a thinned version of the topcoat, and brushed on if you have no spray capabilities. That's pretty easy. No need to make this confusing.










 







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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Hoops... I'm sorry I feel like I'm jacking your thread a bit. But I think our situation is a bit similar.

Chemmy.. TKY for the video. I've sent him a e-mail to purchase the downloadable version. Even if it's not the route I choose to go with this time, it's well worth the dough and I'm sure I'm going to wear it out!

Cabinetman.. I can't agree with you more about some very basics to finishing that get lost in translation. Time and time again this is what I've experienced. But what great info you gave about End Grain I'm definitely copping it into my notes. I think I've chosen to go with red oak for my project, eventually I might start a thread. So ??'s do you think red oak is one of those woods you can solve by just sanding to higher grits than the face grain. As I will be encountering a ton of end grain, if I have to use paste wood filler (not that smelly) will it stain match the face. And is there, which I would be suprised, any technique when working with a colored face grain filler like mica and get it to look like the face if I was using it in a way to just color the open pores a darker color. I don't know if it would make any since to me unless a pattern of open pores some how would be left open after sanding. Darn I had another ? but I lost it.
Thank you for your input!:thumbsup:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Woodress said:


> So ??'s do you think red oak is one of those woods you can solve by just sanding to higher grits than the face grain. As I will be encountering a ton of end grain, if I have to use paste wood filler (not that smelly) will it stain match the face.


You can experiment with just using a 1/4 round (radius) bit and sanding out the curve. Red Oak is very open grained. You can see the difference even on flat grain when sanded to 100x and sanded to 180x, that the smoother sanded surface will get less dark with the same application of stain. Try going a while with 280x - 320x and see the difference.



Woodress said:


> And is there, which I would be suprised, any technique when working with a colored face grain filler like mica and get it to look like the face if I was using it in a way to just color the open pores a darker color. I don't know if it would make any since to me unless a pattern of open pores some how would be left open after sanding. Darn I had another ? but I lost it.
> Thank you for your input!:thumbsup:


Fillers that are natural color may match up very close to a natural finish with no stain. They also come in colors, and can be tinted to any color when mixed, or, before or after application be stained which will allow the entire surface to become uniform in color.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

""I'm fairly certain the person I'm building this for wants to use oil base dye/stain so I'm hoping the idea about glue size or shellac will work because getting into things like potassium permanganate & sodium hypochlorite is way over my head.""

The PP & SH were mentioned because it seemed to me like you were asking about not darkning the edge but having it as close to the same color as the flat grain. if a darker edge is no problem then there would be no need to lighten the edge. naturally the end grain will darken more than surface grain. 

If that;s the case, Then as c'man says you would need nothing more than a pastewood grain filler. as i also had mentioned earlier.

Woodress: "if I have to use paste wood filler (not that smelly) will it stain match the face"

As i'm saying to Hoops, above, if your looking for the end grain to be the same ""lightness"" as the facewood, then you will have to use a lightner of some type to acheive that. Merely using pastewood filler or sanding will not lighten the end grain. So maybe i'm misunderstanding both you and hoops as to what you mean by the stain matching on both surfaces? The only other thing i can think of is maybe your meaning will the color thats applied, be the same color [not lightness] on both surfaces? The answer? yes it would be the same color only darker.


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## shane122 (Jan 12, 2012)

Wood grain filler is used strictly to fill wood grain pores and should not be confused with "wood putty". Wood putty (or wood filler) is a much thicker mixture, and is used to fill larger cracks and voids in the wood. Grain filler is a binder mixed with a filler material, such as silica, "micro balloons", clay, or calcium carbonate to for a thin paste. Most grain fillers are roughly the viscosity of pancake batter, making them easy to work into the grain of the wood, but still thick enough to span and fill the open pores of the grain.There are two main varieties of wood grain filler: Oil-based or waterborne. Oil-based filler is as old as oil-based finish itself, and has a dedicated following. Waterborne wood grain fillers are the new kids on the block, but are rapidly gaining favor because of the easy soap and water clean-up and greatly shortened drying time it offers.


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

Woodress, I will experiment with the CA glue.

CabinetMan, I did try sanding the end grain in steps from 100 grit to 600 grit and spraying it with sanding sealer and it turned out fairly good although it's still a little darker. Besides that, as an FYI, I also noticed the sanding direction made a difference.

Also, I'm curious why you recommend using a solvent base grain filler. I ask because I've already bought a water base grain filler.

Chemmy, I am looking for the end grain to match the face grain and I don't feel comfortable about using a veneer on it because o the 1/4" radius edges.

In one post you mentioned using a lightener. I'm assuming you mean it would be applied to the end grain only. Right?

Also, what type of product would you recommend for the lightening?

Back to the Tear Outs: I have two different types. One type is small tear outs about the size of and 1/8" square and smaller and about 1/64 deep. The other type, which there is only one, has a surface area about equal to that of a dime and it is tapered from zero inch to an 1/8" deep at its center (like a valley).

Since I last posted, outside of Woodress, I don't think anyone mentioned fixing the tear outs so I'm still hoping for help on that. I did think about using a dutchman on the big tear out, but because of grain and wood color differences I think it will be too noticeable.

If anyone has suggestions on repairing these tear outs it will be appreciated.

Thanks again ..... Bud


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

hoops said:


> CabinetMan, I did try sanding the end grain in steps from 100 grit to 600 grit and spraying it with sanding sealer and it turned out fairly good although it's still a little darker. Besides that, as an FYI, I also noticed the sanding direction made a difference.


Sanding cross grain is a no-no. As you probably found out it isn't easy doing it right, and to the extent it would need. That's why most try to find an easy fix.



hoops said:


> Also, I'm curious why you recommend using a solvent base grain filler. I ask because I've already bought a water base grain filler.


It doesn't raise the grain, and it has a longer working time.



hoops said:


> Back to the Tear Outs: I have two different types. One type is small tear outs about the size of and 1/8" square and smaller and about 1/64 deep. The other type, which there is only one, has a surface area about equal to that of a dime and it is tapered from zero inch to an 1/8" deep at its center (like a valley).
> 
> Since I last posted, outside of Woodress, I don't think anyone mentioned fixing the tear outs so I'm still hoping for help on that. I did think about using a dutchman on the big tear out, but because of grain and wood color differences I think it will be too noticeable.
> 
> ...


Can you post pictures?










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

hoops said:


> Woodress, I will experiment with the CA glue.
> 
> CabinetMan, I did try sanding the end grain in steps from 100 grit to 600 grit and spraying it with sanding sealer and it turned out fairly good although it's still a little darker. Besides that, as an FYI, I also noticed the sanding direction made a difference.
> 
> ...


Hi Bud, Ok, now i know my guess was correct, at least for you, i will wait on woodress to reply also. The reason i had mentioned the PP and hypo method was because it is useful for exactly what your looking for. That said, you could use two part bleach, A/B type, but that will probably make it much lighter than you need. since i don't know for sure, and you have posted no pics to see, I'm only presuming that it's as dark as most mahogany. So let me suggest, since you do not want to use my first offer, that you apply the 2 part bleach and when applying the 2nd part [hydrogen peroxide] let set for like 1-2 minute and then wipe off the excess and then wipe with clean water and let dry and test [on "samples!!] as to the lightness of the color. If necessary repeat again to lighten more, though i don't think it will be necessary, ok? 

Yes, the easiest way to accomplish this is to mask off around the face grain edge by using clear sealer to first sealing an inch or so of the face surface. this will stop the bleach from lightning the top surface. This then can be followed by removal of the sealer and re sanding before staining the rest of the piece.

One final note: I've only known a few people in my whole career that actually would take the time to do this kind of thing ok? Personally I would live with the differences in dark/light unless i had a customer that was demanding such, and willing to pay for all the extra time involved. It may serve you well to find a high end furniture store and look at their offering in like wood, and ask them if the color is available with the edges being the same color on edge and flat grain surfaces, I'm sure the answer would be "no" with possible explanations to follow.:yes:


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

Unfortunately I don't have the bench here, but the attached picture showing tear outs gives you an idea of the two different types of tear outs I'm dealing with
.


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

I need to get back to you tomorrow. I'll attach a picture of the end grain so you can see it.

Thanks.


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Shane122: Great info on wood filler and wood grain. I agree with them being the the "New kid on the block" between that and things getting lost in translation it gets a bit confusing. So Thank you:thumbsup:

Chemmy: Thank you for your info. I'm not actually "in" a project. I'm doing a plan through. Planning backwards pretty much, so I don't regret later not doing so. Experience is another word for trial an error in my dictionary. Just learning a new lingo language that varies by location in the world isn't new to me... but takes time. Regulating the co. :blink: making products would be a welcome thing in more ways than one.By the way....in my opinion. From your other post about how you give info. 1st... I'm putting this here because I've read this thread for sometime now and I know you'll get this because of the dedication I know you have to help people. I find it impossible to know how something comes across, how people take it ext... why this is the 2nd forum I've ever posted in. So be who you are... I know by the time your thought has gone from your brain to your finger tips there's a lot of love/compassion added to it, and it shows. But if you occasionally hear a come again, or huh? Don't worry we're all just wanting a piece of your brain. LOL :laughing:


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## Woodress (Jan 10, 2012)

Chemmy... oh and by doing a plan through I've already decided to change wood from a Red Oak to an exotic like lace or leopardwood. It might just be a pencil holders.... but it's gonna be pretty pencil holders.:yes: 
Sorry it took me awhile to get back... It was a jig making day... and they turned out great!


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I just did a grain fill on a QSWO project. For the flat surfaces I was able to use a product from ML Campbell called Level Sealer. It is a spray on coating that you do multiple coats and then sand down. If you are doing this as a natural finish (no stain) it would work well. Using a stain makes it a bit more complicated. 

For the other areas of my project I used Elmer's Wood Putty. This worked out pretty well. It took stain very well. I was using a dark stain so I can't be sure how it would work on a lighter stain. It wouldn't work on a natural Sapele project.

This is the result using the Level Sealer.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Woodress said:


> Shane122: Great info on wood filler and wood grain. I agree with them being the the "New kid on the block" between that and things getting lost in translation it gets a bit confusing. So Thank you:thumbsup:
> 
> Chemmy: Thank you for your info. I'm not actually "in" a project. I'm doing a plan through. Planning backwards pretty much, so I don't regret later not doing so. Experience is another word for trial an error in my dictionary. Just learning a new lingo language that varies by location in the world isn't new to me... but takes time. Regulating the co. :blink: making products would be a welcome thing in more ways than one.By the way....in my opinion. From your other post about how you give info. 1st... I'm putting this here because I've read this thread for sometime now and I know you'll get this because of the dedication I know you have to help people. I find it impossible to know how something comes across, how people take it ext... why this is the 2nd forum I've ever posted in. So be who you are... I know by the time your thought has gone from your brain to your finger tips there's a lot of love/compassion added to it, and it shows. But if you occasionally hear a come again, or huh? Don't worry we're all just wanting a piece of your brain. LOL :laughing:


My pleasure.:yes:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> I just did a grain fill on a QSWO project. For the flat surfaces I was able to use a product from ML Campbell called Level Sealer. It is a spray on coating that you do multiple coats and then sand down. If you are doing this as a natural finish (no stain) it would work well. Using a stain makes it a bit more complicated.
> 
> For the other areas of my project I used Elmer's Wood Putty. This worked out pretty well. It took stain very well. I was using a dark stain so I can't be sure how it would work on a lighter stain. It wouldn't work on a natural Sapele project.
> 
> This is the result using the Level Sealer.


nice look C'man


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

*Chemmy*

I posted the picture of similar tear out right after you posted your message to me yesterday. Any suggestions on what I can do about the tear out?

Here is a picture of the end grain that has one coat of sanding sealer sprayed on it. There is a little more contrast that what the picture shows, but it is close in appearance to what the darkness actually looks like.

As for the left side/edge showing in the picture, it is dark like the end grain because it hasn't been sanded and seal. If it had been sanded and sealed it would match the color of the top (face grain).

Chemmy, I don't know what A/B Bleach is. Can you tell me what it is?

You said, "that you apply the 2 part bleach and when applying the 2nd part [hydrogen peroxide] let set for .......). I don't understand what's being said here. It's mainly the hydrogen peroxide coming into play that I don't understand. Especially when I don't understand what A/B bleach is.

Your procedure of sealing and masking makes perfect sense (the whole paragraph).

Yes, I am a perfectionist to the point that you could say that I'm anal when it comes to things like this. That's always been a problem that's cost me time, which would lead to stress. Now that I'm retired I doubt that I will ever change:yes:

Again, thanks for your help. It is turely appreciated.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

hoops said:


> I posted the picture of similar tear out right after you posted your message to me yesterday. Any suggestions on what I can do about the tear out?
> 
> Here is a picture of the end grain that has one coat of sanding sealer sprayed on it. There is a little more contrast that what the picture shows, but it is close in appearance to what the darkness actually looks like.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Bud, sorry for the confusion, i apologize. 

2 part bleach is a bleaching system that consist of part A [sodium hydroxide] and part B [ hydrogen peroxide]. sodium hydroxide has the more common name of "lye" a very caustic material so use with care ok? the hydrogen peroxide is like that you would find in the drug store, only instead of a 3% solution, it is a 35% solution, very powerful oxidizer, will turn your skin white and bubble it if not removed pretty quickly, so wear gloves, eye protection, when using both and other protective clothing to. It's a standard in the industry so just be careful and you'll be alright. There should also be a small container of neutrlizer which is no more than common 5% vinegar, in case it does not come with it. that will be your last step before washing off with clear water. apply it once let dry and then wipe with a water rag to remove it. it is necessary to use to neutralize the lye ok? Donot use the vinegar until you have reached the lightness that when colored will match the face ok?

I'm not active in the business anymore so i cant off the top of my head tell you where it's readily available, but I'm sure c'man and others can help there. 

You can mix the two together as per product instructions [easiest] for a one step application and since you have not used it before i will say go with that. apply as already suggested and then remove with another wet water cloth after it sits for a few minutes followed by a dry cloth to go over it to remove any residual wetness ok?

Let dry and then re-wet with water and view how much it has lightened, if still to dark - repeat the process until it is, ok? once your satisfied with that stage of the sample, then apply your color diluted by 50% to see how it looks compared to the flat grain ok? If that's to light then reapply as needed, or if to dark, then dilute the stain more. 

It will probably take you a few tries on samples to get it where you want ok? I would suggest you do just a 3-6" inch section of them at a time till you get it where you need it ok?


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

chemmy said:


> nice look C'man


C'man.........??


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> C'man.........??


LOL sorry Leo, my bad lol


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

*Got it, but*

Chemmy, thanks again for the end grain advice. I now understand the bleaching procedure:smile:

Only thing left now is dealing with the tear out (see picture above) and then I'll quit pestering you guys.

Thanks ..... Bud


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

hoops said:


> Back to the Tear Outs: I have two different types. One type is small tear outs about the size of and 1/8" square and smaller and about 1/64 deep. The other type, which there is only one, has a surface area about equal to that of a dime and it is tapered from zero inch to an 1/8" deep at its center (like a valley).
> 
> Since I last posted, outside of Woodress, I don't think anyone mentioned fixing the tear outs so I'm still hoping for help on that. I did think about using a dutchman on the big tear out, but because of grain and wood color differences I think it will be too noticeable.
> 
> ...


Once you get them, dealing with the fix can be a problem, as most repairs will show. If they are from a planer or jointer, you may need to use a leader/follower stock. If from a handplane it's likely that it's not sharp enough, or your technique. 

Since the coloring and grain at your tear outs are so uniform, you might whittle a piece of the same stock to fit like a puzzle. If you had some grain differential it may be less noticeable. I've cut a pattern out in the shape of the grain movement, and picked a section of like wood to closely look like the area, and inlay a patch section of veneer with a free form shape to follow.










 







.


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

*Bummer*

Cabinetman, I was afraid there wouldn't be an easy fix. I had thought about doing what you suggested, which I call a dutchman, but there are too many small tear outs. However, I may try it on the one large tear out. For the small tear outs I have some Famowood Wood Filler that's pretty close in color to the wood so I think I'll go with that.

Thanks for your help.


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## hoops (Dec 31, 2010)

I want to thank everyone who helped me with my project. Especially Chemmy and Cabinetman. This thread has taught me so much about wood grain fillers, sanding sealers, and finishing techniques plus many other things. This thread should be called "Wood Finishing 101". I am going to cut and paste this entire thread into a word document for future reference because it's been so helpful.

THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Personally if it were me i would just cut it off, laminate another piece on bring back into dimension using a table sander [no tear-outs]- lot easier to color in a glue line than making a dutchman dissappear. 

BTWTHDIKnow


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