# Centering screws in countersunk hinges



## Jory (Feb 19, 2012)

I know about Vix bits and have used them successfully in the past. I have a Starrett center punch also. But, even with these tools I have a hard time getting screws centered enough to rest at, or slightly below, the surface of a hinge.
If one is dealing with heavy steel screws one can often apply extra torque and the screw will shift the wood enough to center. My problem arose trying to reset hinges in a mahogany slant top desk. The hinges are solid brass and the screws are #7's and also solid brass. Yes, they really are #7's, not 6's or 8's. The prior screw holes were drilled out and plugged with matching mahogany. Vix bits would not center the holes accurately enough for my liking and as you all know you can't torque down brass screws, the heads will just twist off.
I got the screws to position better than before but I am still not satisfied.
One idea I had was to drill a hole just a bit larger than the shank, wax the screw (The screw must be removable.) and insert it together with some sort of wood filler. This would even allow the screws to be easily clocked. Later a piece of veneer could even hide any trace of the filler. Has anyone found a filler that work long term. There is not a lot of stress on the hinges but I do want them to be structurally sound.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

IMO, the fill will break down, and likely become unreliable to hold the screw. But, to answer your question, Durhams Rock Hard Water Putty, or a two part epoxy should work better (if possible) than any other fill.

For centering holes, I don't use Vix bits or the spring loaded punch, as both of them can get slightly off center, causing the screw to skew as it's driven in.

I use a scratch awl, and eyeball the point to center for a punch hole.











 







.


----------



## DannyT (Apr 26, 2011)

in the past when i had to use brass screws i always ran a steel screw of the same size into the hole first then run the brass screw in after. i never twisted a brass screw off again after i started doing that.


----------



## Murphy's Law (Dec 15, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I use a scratch awl, and eyeball the point to center for a punch hole.


I have done this many times but the awl will deflect with the wood grain sometimes too. Centering screws in counter sunk holes has always been difficult for me.


----------



## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

I have used vix bits with pretty much the same results until I found a Hitachi that centers as close to perfect as I can get. The awl also works well with some practice.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm with Danny on the use of matching steel screws.You can take a die grinder(or dremel)and cut a slot in the side of the screw.In effect making it a custom "tap".Takes longer to describe than actually doin several.


I do alot with epoxy.....and "may" have even done what you've proposed(oversize hole/epoxy/filler thing),but it would be as a last resort....and more than likely on some old house where the issue is decayed/rotten wood.....realizing that it's really a last ditch effort.Best of luck,BW


----------



## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

I use an awl.

I certainly would not count on wood filler to hold a screw.


----------



## Jory (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you for your suggestions. However, I mentioned the fact that the screws were #7 countersunk brass screws. I have not been able to find any #7 countersunk steel screws. In addition using a steel screw to enlarge the hole on one side is not a very clean way of working since at least part of the threads will not then be making contact with wood. 
I used the awl method. I drew concentric circles on a paper to get one that was just shy of the size of the hinge hole. I then wiggled the paper between the wood and the hinge until all of the circle was visible. I used an awl to enlarge the pin hole made by the compass. The results were pretty good. 4 of the 12 holes were almost perfect. The other 8 were not. Perhaps the drill wandered due to grain. Perhaps the drill was not perfectly vertical. No matter, I found a way to get the screws in perfectly. I tested this method it is cumbersome but it does work.




Drill and then put the screw in scrap wood, best if it is the same type as the actual project.
Remove the screw and use a plug cutter to make a plug with the screw hole in it. Try to be close to centering it around the screw hole.
Use a Forstner bit to create a flat bottom holes in the project for the plug.
Sand or chisel the plug so it is undersized.
Make a piece of matching 1/10 inch veneer position it in the mortise and drill holes the same size, or slightly smaller than the hinge holes. This will be in contact with the screw shank portion not the threads. 
Insert the screws in the hinge, then the veneer and screw the plugs on until the screws bottom in the hinge.
Install the assembly into the project and clock the screws. rotating clockwise to keep the assembly tightly together.
Remove the hinge with all the attached veneer and plugs and put gap filling glue in holes. Hide glue would be good. Then glue in the hinge assembly
After the glue has cured you can remove the screws and the hinge all that will be seen is the matching veneer with holes that seem slightly larger that you would normally have
 A complicated process but it works and the screws can be clocked with out torquing or filing the under side of the screw head.


----------



## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

Jory said:


> Thank you for your suggestions. However, I mentioned the fact that the screws were #7 countersunk brass screws. I have not been able to find any #7 countersunk steel screws. In addition using a steel screw to enlarge the hole on one side is not a very clean way of working since at least part of the threads will not then be making contact with wood.
> I used the awl method. I drew concentric circles on a paper to get one that was just shy of the size of the hinge hole. I then wiggled the paper between the wood and the hinge until all of the circle was visible. I used an awl to enlarge the pin hole made by the compass. The results were pretty good. 4 of the 12 holes were almost perfect. The other 8 were not. Perhaps the drill wandered due to grain. Perhaps the drill was not perfectly vertical. No matter, I found a way to get the screws in perfectly. I tested this method it is cumbersome but it does work.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, you're making this WAY more difficult than it needs to be. I've screwed many a piece of hardware having counter-sunk holes and have never needed to go to such extremes.

One thing that may make it easier if you are having to attach a bunch of the same type/size hinge would be to carefully measure and drill small holes into a piece of clear acrylic then use that as a guide to tap your awl, making small holes so that you can then drill your pilots.

Some hinges come with a paper drilling template to locate your pilot centers.

Either way, in my opinion, you're grossly over-thinking the task and turning it into a much bigger production than it needs to be.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Chaincarver Steve said:


> Wow, you're making this WAY more difficult than it needs to be. I've screwed many a piece of hardware having counter-sunk holes and have never needed to go to such extremes.
> 
> One thing that may make it easier if you are having to attach a bunch of the same type/size hinge would be to carefully measure and drill small holes into a piece of clear acrylic then use that as a guide to tap your awl, making small holes so that you can then drill your pilots.
> 
> ...


+1. :yes: Use the awl, and a brad point bit.










 







.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Yeah,an awl and just be careful.

My comment on "cutting threads" was for using soft Brass screws in really hard wood as a way of preventing the latter from breaking.

If you have a really grainy wood,Oak...yellow Pine,ect.There are ways to fixture for drilling.....that would be a very long,drawn out response or description.And even then(grain/drill deflection)by being extremely careful with an awl you can make your start hole "do what it needs" to get the job done.BW


----------



## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

If after center punching, the drill bit wanders, how about using a Gimlet?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Pirate said:


> If after center punching, the drill bit wanders, how about using a Gimlet?


+1. :yes: If the drill bit wanders, a gimlet should be used after punching, not after starting to drill.










 







.


----------



## BaldEagle2012 (Jan 25, 2012)

I use a self centering tool on countersunk screw holes on hinges. Just center in screw hole vertically and tap with a hammer. I got it at Lowes about 5 years ago. Made by Stanley, (USA)


----------



## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

I use a regular drill bit. Find one that *exactly* matches the hole in the hinge. Using it by hand, place it in the hinge and spin a few times with moderate pressure. If your drill bit is the exact same size as your holes in the hinge this is perfectly centered. No "eyeballing" or "practice" with an awl or any other method were human error is likely. And remember to keep it straight when drilling!


----------



## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

preacherman said:


> I use a regular drill bit. Find one that *exactly* matches the hole in the hinge. Using it by hand, place it in the hinge and spin a few times with moderate pressure.


Yup. That'll do the trick.

A variation of this is to use a counter sink that matches the angle of the hinge C'sinked hole. Ya gotta hold the hings pretty much dead on where it'll be living when ya do this then bring the C'sink to play.


----------



## Jory (Feb 19, 2012)

*centering screws in countersunk hinges*

Perhaps I was not clear enough when I submitted my question. I have used all the techniques suggested in the past with a fair degree of success. The problem that caused me to ask for help was hinges in a slant front mahogany desk. When the desk is opened up the hinges become part of the writing surface. This means that even the slightest shift of the screw from dead center will cause one side or the other to be a little proud of the hinge surface. Your hand, wrist or sleeve can rub against it. 

My final solution, which worked, was to use a 3/8" Forstner bit to drill out the screw holes that were not quite right. I then used a 1/4" plug cutter to create plugs to fill the holes made be the Forstner bit. I made sure the plugs were the same length as the holes. I carefully centered a hole in the plugs and mounted the plugs on the hinge WITHOUT THE HINGE BEING ON THE DESK. With the plugs being free to move laterally the screws automatically centered themselves. 

I then put some liquid hide glue in the holes and seated the hinge with the plugs attached. (Hide glue is a good gap filling glue.) Since there was a 1/16" gap all around the plug there was no difficulty in getting them in the holes even though the plugs were not exactly centered in the holes. After leaving the glue to cure overnight I unscrewed the hinge and added glue to more securely fix the plugs. 

After again allowing the glue to cure I routed out the mortise slightly and added a piece of mahogany veneer to cover undersized plugs and the uneven glue lines. Holes were made in the veneer just slightly over sized to allow the screws to correctly enter the now very secure plugs. Another feature of this technique is that the screws can be clocked without undercutting the screw head which can really weaken a solid brass screw.

I would never suggest such a complicated procedure for usual hinge mounting. Most hinges are used to mount lids or doors and whether or not the screws are "perfectly" aligned does not matter. Only when the hinges are part of a working surface could it be worth the effort and, even then, only when a centering punch and or a VIX bit doesn't yield the desired precision. I was just hopeful that there was a simpler method. Thank all of you for all the suggestions made.


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

one thing helps, only drill and drive one screw at first, that leaves the second or third for corrections if needed. helps some.


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

I guess I'm a bit late but when I have the proud screw problem it is usually the counter sunk hole in the hinge. I use a single flute countersink (Available from Woodcraft) to enlarge the counter sink hole in the hinge.


----------



## BAK777 (Sep 3, 2012)

Jory, I can't help you with your question. I came across this forum because I was looking for a tool to center the screw in a metal recessed hole like in a hinge. Being at Lowe's today I looked at a Stanley self-centering screw punch,took it out of it's packaging and tried it on a hole that a metal shelf had.How in the world does anybody use one of these things with success? It of course centered itself in the recess but there was NO way to determine whether it was perpendicular to the hinge. If along with the current design they added a flat piece to keep the tool perpendicular than I'd have a tool that I could use.


----------



## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

> I use a scratch awl, and eyeball the point to center for a punch hole.


Me too. I've tried several different approaches over the years. I'm happiest with the awl.
Sometimes I'll use a pen to circumscribe the hole which reduces the target area making finding center a tad easier. And rather than a regular awl I use a very fine tool ground to a point in the manner of an awl. Mine is just an old knock out pin from an injection mold, but anything will do. Then it's just a matter of using your eyes and not rushing.


----------



## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Cliff said:


> Me too. I've tried several different approaches over the years. I'm happiest with the awl.
> Sometimes I'll use a pen to circumscribe the hole which reduces the target area making finding center a tad easier. And rather than a regular awl I use a very fine tool ground to a point in the manner of an awl. Mine is just an old knock out pin from an injection mold, but anything will do. Then it's just a matter of using your eyes and not rushing.


I find, that sometimes, "your eyes" can be the problem! Damn, where did I put those glasses!


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BAK777 said:


> Jory, I can't help you with your question. I came across this forum because I was looking for a tool to center the screw in a metal recessed hole like in a hinge. Being at Lowe's today I looked at a Stanley self-centering screw punch,took it out of it's packaging and tried it on a hole that a metal shelf had.How in the world does anybody use one of these things with success? It of course centered itself in the recess but there was NO way to determine whether it was perpendicular to the hinge. If along with the current design they added a flat piece to keep the tool perpendicular than I'd have a tool that I could use.


 







That's exactly the problem with those punches. Their length permits an exaggerated angle if not exactly perpendicular to the hinge leaf. With an offset hole (even slightly) the screw gets positioned off center. The results are that as the screw gets seated it shifts the hinge slightly.

In addition to that problem, just centering the screw isn't the only process that makes for a good installation. Most screws have a beveled base to the head. If the hole isn't slightly countersunk, as the screw draws down, the beveled base of the head meets resistance to the wood surrounding the hole. What happens then is that it doesn't seat completely. In our efforts to make the screw seat flat to the hinge leaf, there is the propensity to push down and turn hard to accomplish that. Many screws, especially small box hardware screws don't have aggressive threads, and it strips the hole.

I find that having a centered hole, and drilling a countersunk pilot hole, allows the screw to be seated properly. Installing leaf type hinges can be and should be an exact process. I find that marking for one hole on each leaf, and inserting the screws allows for a test of the lid action before adding the 2nd or 3rd screw hole.













 







.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Anybody tried the ItsyBitsy that Rockler sells?


----------



## notmrjohn (Aug 18, 2012)

Lay out hinge holes by measurement and/or template, and mark all hinge hole *centers* with + before assembly. Take piece to drill press, clamp it to table, adjustable table if ya got it, ( or gently lower and lock bit, then clamp piece), use brad point bit, or quality vix with hinge in place, per TimPa, high speed, slow feed. Can't imagine using the plug technique in production work, and I've done all sorts of fold down flat top pieces. (14 wall mounted cubby hole fold down desks once, that was done with several positioning jigs) I've found that proud screws are often a hinge problem as rrich sed. Also if pilot hole is too small, screw can more easily go crooked on you than if hole is proper size. Never seen a vix proper size for 7 though, and self centering taper to fit counter sunk is impotant thing here.


----------



## islandluthier10314 (Sep 4, 2013)

Jory said:


> I know about Vix bits and have used them successfully in the past. I have a Starrett center punch also. But, even with these tools I have a hard time getting screws centered enough to rest at, or slightly below, the surface of a hinge.
> If one is dealing with heavy steel screws one can often apply extra torque and the screw will shift the wood enough to center. My problem arose trying to reset hinges in a mahogany slant top desk. The hinges are solid brass and the screws are #7's and also solid brass. Yes, they really are #7's, not 6's or 8's. The prior screw holes were drilled out and plugged with matching mahogany. Vix bits would not center the holes accurately enough for my liking and as you all know you can't torque down brass screws, the heads will just twist off.
> I got the screws to position better than before but I am still not satisfied.
> One idea I had was to drill a hole just a bit larger than the shank, wax the screw (The screw must be removable.) and insert it together with some sort of wood filler. This would even allow the screws to be easily clocked. Later a piece of veneer could even hide any trace of the filler. Has anyone found a filler that work long term. There is not a lot of stress on the hinges but I do want them to be structurally sound.


:boat::thumbsup:

Yeah this was a question in my mind also. I must say at the onset that I agree with the gentleman who said that the approach taken was way over kill. This is what I did, even with owning the Vix bits:
1: Use Maple dowels of several diameters as stock.
2. Cut to 5" lengths. 
3. Then through-gun drill on lathe will long 1/8 brad points 
making sure that the drills ream the hole slightly, thus giving it 
a de-bur and some clearance. Use peck drilling to maintain
a straight hole.
4. Using pencil sharpener (Old school works great if electric is not 
available), put a conical end on one end of the cut and drilled, 
dowel lengths.
3. Using mild 1/8 round steel bar stock, cut 7.5" length for each 
diff. dia. dowel size.
4. Grind point onto lengths of steel bar stock, keeping point
centered as best possible, free hand on bench grinder. Use 
water to cool stock as to prevent the steel from overheating 
and becoming brittle. I realize that the point will not be exactly
centered, but we work in wood. If careful to keep generally 
centered the center punched hole will be located accurate
enough for wood-working purposes.
5. That is it. You might have to take some sand paper and blunt
the ends of the conical part of the dowel for better seating in the 
counter sunk hole of the hinge or what ever you are locating. 
Wipe a little (very little) petro-jelly on the rod/center punch slide 
it into the dowel, centering barrel, inserting from the flat flush end 
with the point facing towards the conical end of course.

Use: Center the conical end, using the approx size need to suit the 
hinge (or what ever hardware being attached), with the point of 
the center punch retracted slightly below the conical end of the 
dowel. Hold down firmly, but not excessively and tap the back 
side of the center punch. This has worked great for me for
years and took me about 1 hour to make 4 different punches
with material that was around the shop.

Note: Other diameter steel rod can be used, just as long as 
you can cut it and grind it and the gun drilled hole required
in the dowel leaves enough wall thickness to keep the rod
when struck from breaking out the sides, using the tool .


----------



## sweet willy (Jul 17, 2013)

The best thing about using an awl, with a nice sharp point, is that if the hole you make is off center, you can "move" the hole to where it needs to be. Not sure I can explain it well but here goes. If the hole is off-center place the awl's point where the hole should be and *push* the awl in so that you move some of the fibers of the wood over and have the hole where it belongs. I've done this for 30 years or more so I can safely assure you that it works.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Lot of good suggestions, basically it comes down to experience, knowing what to expect from the grain of some species, etc.
I got into the habbit of threading the wood with an identical steel screw before driving in a brass one even if I drill a pilot hole.
The quality of the screw slot and how well the driver fits will affect how straight the screw is driven, particularly with straight slots.


----------

