# Turning a plate/platter



## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I have a pine log with branches coming out at the same level and I’m hoping to turn it into a plate that looks like the attached photo. 

In order to make sure it doesn’t crack, should I wax it, let the larger slab dry completely and then turn it, or should I turn it wet and then dry it?
If I turn it first and then dry it, what should I do to make sure it doesn’t dry too fast and crack?


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## Gary Beasley (Jan 21, 2009)

That looks like it was turned green to final thickness very thin, finished, and allowed to dry and warp on its own, though that would tend to have ripples where the knots are at.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

To even roughly turn it green the wood will crack where it will never be usable. The end grain will have to be sealed and the wood allowed to dry before you will be able to turn anything out of it.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> To even roughly turn it green the wood will crack where it will never be usable. The end grain will have to be sealed and the wood allowed to dry before you will be able to turn anything out of it.



So, if the log section is 3" thick and 10" diameter with the endgrain waxed, will the drying time be 3 years, or 10 years?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> To even roughly turn it green the wood will crack where it will never be usable. The end grain will have to be sealed and the wood allowed to dry before you will be able to turn anything out of it.


*Sorry, not correct at all!!! 

Turning is done always in green wood...99% of the time...NEVER DRY!!*

Can it be turned dry...yes...Do many do this, again yes, because most folks wanting to turn something can only get wood that has sat around for too long, and or can only get kiln dried wood that is usually entirely too case hardened to be pleasant to work with...but they don't have anything else available to them.

If you have turned one of these limbed cookies in dry wood Steve, that would be a first that I know of and I would love to see it?



Quickstep said:


> So, if the log section is 3" thick and 10" diameter with the end grain waxed, will the drying time be 3 years, or 10 years?


Hello QuickStep,

*DO NOT LET IT DRY OUT before you work it!!!!*

This is one of the much more challenging turning projects, but as the photo indicates it can be done and yields some pretty dramatic and beautiful results. The species in the photo not only present with rosin laden limb inclusions but also some very strong blue stain; which I personally love seeing in pine. Fortunately, most do not, and it downgrades the market value of the log, which is much better for us as we get the very pleasing effect in our timbers, and the blue stain has zero structural effect so there isn't an issue there...Just pretty patterns in the wood...:smile2:

You have done well to get it waxed, and I will assume its waxed on both sides? 

Note, this type of turning with bark and limb inclusion is really challenging so if you have only one, that is a big risk. I would say the loss on these if you turn 10 is about 3 to 4, sometime hirer depending on the tree, and the amount of tension it had in it. Loss can be dropped significantly by storing the wood under water. The longer its kept that way the more stable the wood seems to get in the long run...

The other method to quickly stabilized the wood (and not something I like, recommend or wish to spend money on) is to treat the rough blanks (aka cookies) in Polyethylene glycol (PEG.)

There is also wax and oil bathing/soaking while you turn. This softens the wood a great deal so your turning tools must be kept really sharp! It elevates the warping in the wood as it is thinned down, much in the way PEG does. 

The other critical element to working these types of reaction and end grain turning projects is to go slow. Working a dish like this down is a process of stages over several days. The wood will present as "dryer" very often after just thinning it a bit. At that point, oil/wax it and let it sit for at least a few hours, if not a day. Then come back to it. I personally like working up a series of them, as some losses are inevitable usually.


Good Luck, and have fun with these...There cool!!

j


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I haven’t done anything with it yet. It’s still a log about 16” long with the branch section the middle. 

I’m trying to determine if I should turn it right away when I cut the branch section out of the middle, or if I should wax it and wait.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> *Sorry, not correct at all!!!
> 
> Turning is done always in green wood...99% of the time...NEVER DRY!!*
> 
> ...


I don't think so. There is a lot of talk about rough turning green and putting it in a paper bag and allowing it to dry but what happens in the overwhelming majority of cases is the wood splits where the turning is thrown away. It's better to put the wood up and let it season before working with it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> So, if the log section is 3" thick and 10" diameter with the endgrain waxed, will the drying time be 3 years, or 10 years?


A lot depends on the climate and how it's stored. Under good conditions you could probably turn it in 3 years. What would be good is after you make the attempt and start turning use a moisture content meter on it before you get too far. I've taken sections of logs where the tree was dead to begin with and checked it with a moisture content meter and it read less than 10%. Then cut the log section in two and check it again and it read 25% where it was cut.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't think so...There is a lot of talk... about rough turning green and putting it in a paper bag and allowing it to dry but what happens in the overwhelming majority of cases is the wood splits where the turning is thrown away. It's better to put the wood up and let it season before working with it.


I'm sorry, once again your statement is simply false and misguiding this conversation. 

"What happens"...actually.... is that in the..."overwhelming majority of cases"...if you follow the known and historical practices of woodturning for flatware and receptacles...it doesn't split at all...

It certainly not better to put wood up and let it season before working it...That is pointless and a waste of time. Not unless it's done in the original (and proven) context of the craft of turning...Which is to either store it underwater and/or wax/oil it so it doesn't lose moisture...aka...DOES NOT DRY OUT... until there is the time to work it properly depending on the final goal for the turning...

Besides the pointless difficulty of turning dry wood, it is inefficient trying to wait for the large blocks of wood to dry (usually creating uneven stresses within the piece) to come to the current misguided views of how dry wood needs to be to make something from it...

Steve, I grow ever frustrated with advice coming out folks with zero or limited tangible experiences on these topics...Especially in traditional work. If your turning bone dry wood to good results, I can say that it is highly unusual and out of context for the craft...

It too often wastes time debating it and "muddies the water" for folks trying to learn about a topic they have questions on...

I'm not into giving advise to folks based on what..."I think"...or..." a lot of talk." I would rather give advise on what "I know" from first-hand experience, and/or the proven empirical historical record on a subject particular means, or method...The rest is simply hearsay and speculative talk about an individual "I think" opinions on something they heard, read or imagined. Once again given as "you should do this" statements that are simply wrong!

The historical record and the best practice within this craft is:


Turning for flatware and receptacles is...in most (if not all?) it forms...typically done in...green wood...period!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Quickstep said:


> I haven’t done anything with it yet. It’s still a log about 16” long with the branch section the middle.
> 
> I’m trying to determine if I should turn it right away when I cut the branch section out of the middle, or if I should wax it and wait.


I would turn a sample outside the limb whorl to get a feel for that section of wood. Remember, it needs to be done in incremental stages and make effort not to let the wood dry out while you are doing this. I often bath the wood with Canola or Coconut oil to keep the fibers moist and to mitigate splitting that can (and will) occur if you let it dry out.

If you do wait...Protect from drying out...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

We have 18,000,000 ha Mountain Pine Beetle killed trees here in British Columbia, standing dry and cracked and useless except to burn.
"Bug-wood" drills funny, cuts funny. basically powders, glues funny and is a nightmare to pulp in the fiber industry.
Some of it did get used before the stems had much chance to dry out.

I agree with the suggested turning it green then paint/wax/glue to slow down the rate of drying.
What's happening is to slowly relieve the stress as the wood water slowly evaporates.

Even if it did crack, turn the faults into features with stone-filled epoxy or some such.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I'm sorry, once again your statement is simply false and misguiding this conversation.
> 
> "What happens"...actually.... is that in the..."overwhelming majority of cases"...if you follow the known and historical practices of woodturning for flatware and receptacles...it doesn't split at all...
> 
> ...


Your wrong about experience. I've tried it numerous times with different species of wood the end checking caused the turnings to go in the trash. Then a lot of people come here and try the same thing with the same results and wonder what they did wrong. The truth of the matter is the green wood shouldn't be used in that manor. 

As far as historical, people learn from mistakes and change to using dry wood. Throughout my career I've had to repair numinous different furniture and architectural pieces due to using green wood.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Your wrong about experience. I've tried it numerous times with different species of wood the end checking caused the turnings to go in the trash. Then a lot of people come here and try the same thing with the same results and wonder what they did wrong. The truth of the matter is the green wood shouldn't be used in that manor.
> 
> As far as historical, people learn from mistakes and change to using dry wood. Throughout my career, I've had to repair numinous different furniture and architectural pieces due to using green wood.


If I'm wrong Steve, then I would be out of business and the many projects I have online to look at would also be wrong and not support what I describe when trying to help readers with a question...

I can say this is the internet and you can claim whatever you wish to...There isn't anything to be done about that, and folks will have to figure things out for themselves.

I will state for the record that what you are claiming is completely out of context from my 40 years of experience as a...."green woodworker"...and everything I know, have observed, or read, as well as everyone I know and their related experiences on the subject...Is completely different than what you are claiming is the..."truth of the matter" and what should or should not be done.

I guess "your truth of the matter" is completely different than that of the historical record, or those of us that actually make a living in green woodworking...

My work is online for folks to look at, as are the many projects I have done...or have been part of. All of it within the*...green woodworking realm...* 

Steve, you don't seem to present many tangible examples of your work to support your atypical claims. Not having anything to look at online in the way of work for examination or validation of your claims of knowledge on the subject is rather disingenuous from my perspective...

So again, ...It will be up to the readers to which piece of advise they care to follow...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Well, Steve...all I can say is this is the internet and you can claim whatever you wish to...There isn't anything to be done about that, and folks will have to figure things out for themselves.
> 
> I will state for the record that what you are claiming is completely out of context from my 40 years of experience as a...."green woodworker"...and everything I know, have observed, or read, as well as everyone I know and their related experiences on the subject...Is completely different than what you are claiming is the..."truth of the matter" and what should or should not be done.
> 
> ...


It's true I don't exhibit green woodworking. Everything I've ever attempted to make with green wood has gone in the trash so I no longer try. Therefore I'm not going to recommend a procedure which requires more luck than skill for success. I'm not going to invest my time in a project and have it ruined with end checking.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It's true I don't exhibit green woodworking...


Thank you for validating that...It's clear you don't!



Steve Neul said:


> Everything I've ever attempted to make with green wood has gone in the trash so I no longer try...


I would suggest that giving up isn't a way to learn about something or move forward in understanding it in more depth...



Steve Neul said:


> Therefore I'm not going to recommend a procedure which requires more luck than skill for success. I'm not going to invest my time in a project and have it ruined with end checking.


I'm sorry Steve, but your "bad luck" does not add up to giving readers...BAD ADVICE!!

Which is exactly what you are doing each and every time you broach this subject with me. 

Further, it is flat out condescending and rude to suggest that I make a living without having skills and happen to just be..." lucky." In turn, I would suggest you are ignorant and narrow-minded without the fortitude to move past failures to actually learn something from your mistakes but instead blame the method. 

Green woodworking...IS NOT...about "luck" as you so sarcastically put it...It's about actually understanding wood and the tangible experience working with it in all its different contexts without giving up...

Like I said in the other recent conversation, Don't let your ego engagement and unwillingness to acknowledge that ignorance of a topic block readers from the information of which you clearly don't have experience in nor choose to try to understand...

Yes, wood moves...but instead of dismissing history and the actualities that are green woodworking, perhaps (this time) actually learn the basics of how to do it first before dismissing it...This way the conversation about working wood can be a complete and inclusive one to all the methods that are available to us...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I stopped working with green wood because I learned it's something nobody should do. It's why it is an industry standard to dry the wood. If this was an accepted procedure you could purchase green wood from retailers. It's one of these things you learn on the internet which is completely wrong. I just had to give it a try since it was suggested. It's not a matter of trying something once and having bad luck. When it didn't go well I wrote it up as being a bad piece of wood or the wrong species so the attempt was made with different wood and some with trees that had been standing dead for a few years. 

First of all I might make a mistake now and then but I don't give bad advise, I report the truth of my experience and relay the experiences of others which have had the same results which I concur with. *Working with green wood is asking for trouble.


*


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

There are many ways to turn wood. I have been turning for over 14 years now and belong to a fairly large turning club. We have world reknowned turners come in and demonstrate 3-4 times a year, as well as having many excellent and very knowledgeable turners in our club. To say you can't turn dry would or can't turn green wood is ridiculous from both standpoints. There are many ways to skin a cat. I rough turn green wood, mainly for bowls and platters, then place them in paper bags with the end grain sealed. I have had very few crack. I turn a lot more dry wood, both air dried and kiln dried. While it is a little tougher on tools, it is easily done. There is one fellow in the club that specializes in platters. He gets green blanks, rough turns them, let's them sit for a year, then finishes them. Both methods work, you just have to figure out what works for you. 
Mike Hawkins


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

This green dry debate will go on till long after we are all gone to dust ourselves. Green wood can be much easier to turn. But, wood and climates vary so much, I seriously doubt such broad general statements hold true for all species of wood in all climates and probably vary depending on the season when the log was cut. Pine is a difficult wood to turn. Except that before I knew this, I turned several pieces of pine. I had tear out in every piece but hid it with the finish given. Some woods are resistant to checking such as Pawlonia, others seem to check just because you looked at them. If you live in a rain forest, wood will dry more slowly than if you live in Death Valley. Some basement workshops have a steady humidity vs the wild humidity fluctuations of a heated shop in a Northern part of the country. I turn green, partially seasoned, air dried and kiln dried. Having a piece get trashed due to cracks brings a sense of loss and waste. I have lots of red maple. If I cut a three inch branch in January, stack it in the barn and then turn it in November, It is still too flexible for slender spindle turning, but for some ornaments turns like butter and sands smooth and checking is rare. I think where conditions are optimal, green turning can be better and where conditions are not, most green turnings would be trash. And in the OP's chunk of wood, pine with resinous spots, is a simply so different from hardwoods as to be in a class of it's own.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> I stopped working with green wood because I learned it's something nobody should do. It's why it is an industry standard to dry the wood. If this was an accepted procedure you could purchase green wood from retailers. It's one of these things you learn on the internet which is completely wrong. I just had to give it a try since it was suggested. It's not a matter of trying something once and having bad luck. When it didn't go well I wrote it up as being a bad piece of wood or the wrong species so the attempt was made with different wood and some with trees that had been standing dead for a few years.
> 
> First of all I might make a mistake now and then but I don't give bad advise, I report the truth of my experience and relay the experiences of others which have had the same results which I concur with. *Working with green wood is asking for trouble.
> 
> ...


Here's a article on working/turning green wood. It's based on FACTS, history and PROPER procedures....you have to follow the guidelines or things don't always work out!!! You can't argue this man doesn't KNOW what he's talking about as it's OBVIOUS he ALSO makes a living using green wood to create!!!! 

http://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/John_Jordan_Woodturning/Understanding_Wood.html 

There's many more sources related to this with same facts......BOTTOM line is, GET the proper facts and procedures together and it works....do it the wrong way and even dry wood still destroys....look at all the threads here on bowed tops ...it boiled down to IMPROPER techniques causing the FAILURES...NOT the green or dry wood.

As the old tv show used to say..."..Just the Facts, Just the FACTS..."


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Back on Track...Turning a plate/platter...*



Quickstep said:


> I have a pine log with branches...


I personally apologize Quickstep for getting on one of my rants...I just hat misinformation given out as facts or "good practice!"...Not a justification for my actions, but more an explanation...

Thank you for your patience, and in the end, you have gotten some great feedback here and have some great "human resources" that actually know something about this topic and have the experience to draw from that are following along should you have more questions...

All in all...You're in good hands!



Tennessee Tim said:


> As the old tv show used to say..."..Just the Facts, Just the FACTS..."


Tim...You're awesome, and the master of accurate, concise, and to the point responses!

Thank you!



holtzdreher said:


> This green dry debate will go on till long after we are all gone to dust ourselves...


Thank you for your view on this, and adding your voice. 

I agree, what once was a standard practice and common knowledge (and skill set) has now become a debate...

Again, if any of my comments seemed too broad (and I think some of them could be read that way out of context) I should have done better...



firehawkmph said:


> There are many ways to turn wood...To say you can't turn dry would or can't turn green wood is ridiculous from both standpoints.


Hi Mike,

I do agree there is more than one way to do things... and more than respect your 14 years and those you have around you in the way they wish to turn...

I turned wood for the first time in 1968, and though haven't done it as a steady daily task for pay or pleasure but more a function of necessity over the years to get a project done and make things of use..., I think my words are of some worth in this conversation about modality...According to folks like Dustin Coates (a world-renowned turner) just one of my friends and colleagues on the subject...I seem to know a fair amount about this thing we call wood...LOL

I want to be clear also...

I never stated you couldn't turn dry wood. I went back to check that I hadn't done something that stupid! My points on this matter, to be clear for the record, is in regards to a turning a "limb whorl." I do know that wood is turned dry for some projects...like certain high-class victorian turnings, some tool handles, and the related...I do that myself for sure!

I apologize if I wasn't clear about that...



Steve Neul said:


> *Working with green wood is asking for trouble.*


Well, I guess for you it is...I'm sorry about that...Perhaps try again?

As to your advice, share whatever you wish, and when out of context, I will certainly always point out the discrepancies as I see them

...Like the fact that I work in one of those wood industries of which you speak...and the wood we purchase from our retailer...like Tennesse Time himself can and does sell...is green. Why? because its the "accepted procedure."


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Here's a article on working/turning green wood. It's based on FACTS, history and PROPER procedures....you have to follow the guidelines or things don't always work out!!! You can't argue this man doesn't KNOW what he's talking about as it's OBVIOUS he ALSO makes a living using green wood to create!!!!
> 
> http://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/John_Jordan_Woodturning/Understanding_Wood.html
> 
> ...



Tim, Thanks for the Article. I also found an article that said turn it green to about 90% of the finished dimension, then coat it with Pentacryl, then turn it finish dimensions when it's dry. This sounds reasonable, but I'm curious for you guys' thoughts.


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

A bit off topic, but, I turned a 28 inch high snowman figure for a lady. It was turned from a piece of hackberry firewood about 10 inches in diameter. I had to shave the bark off to get it to clear the banjo and turn. The tree had been cut a year earlier and I turned the figure for her and sanded it only down to 180 grit. She painted it with some kind of dull craft paint and the thing cracked and checked badly in a few places. Everybody thinks it is an old Victorian piece and she gets compliments on such a rare antique. I have since turned two more for her.


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## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

A gentle reminder for all of us.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f33/when-we-disagree-198506/


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

I went to the GA Symposium last September. I recall Irish woodturner, Glenn Lucas, rough turning bowls and storing them, stickered, in a large kiln. This debate is like blondes vs. brunettes. I preferred blondes. You can see them in the dark.:vs_laugh:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I personally apologize Quickstep for getting on one of my rants...I just hat misinformation given out as facts or "good practice!"...Not a justification for my actions, but more an explanation...
> 
> Thank you for your patience, and in the end, you have gotten some great feedback here and have some great "human resources" that actually know something about this topic and have the experience to draw from that are following along should you have more questions...
> 
> ...


Did you even read that article from John Jordan that Tim posted. It's been too many years since I turned green wood so I can't remember if I did everything exactly the same so at some time I will make another attempt. Right not I don't have a live tree to cut down. The only wood I have is a standing dead white oak tree which wouldn't be good for the test. Setting aside my experiences from what was written in the article if John Jordan was in this conversation he would say it was bad advise for Quickstep to turn his platter with green wood.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Did you even read that article from John Jordan that Tim posted. It's been too many years since I turned green wood so I can't remember if I did everything exactly the same so at some time I will make another attempt. Right not I don't have a live tree to cut down. The only wood I have is a standing dead white oak tree which wouldn't be good for the test. Setting aside my experiences from what was written in the article if John Jordan was in this conversation he would say it was bad advise for Quickstep to turn his platter with green wood.


I did read it, Steve...Now and when John published it...

I think it is one good article. A perspective, among many, both here and in the world of turning wood (green or dry.) Then there are those of us (Tim, myself, et al) that do more than turn but actually build other items from green wood. I also know John but not as well as I know Dustin and others of similar skill set. Because I don't move in those circles as much as the one that gathers at Greenfest and other traditional woodworking events, I don't think of my self as a professional turner though I have taken pay for the work...so let's say...semi-professional.

Actually, and I would see what other more regular turners hear would say, but you white oak actually sounds like an excellent tree to not only turn with but to rive and make many other wonderful things out of, should you actually want to try your hand at it again. Even wormy oak is quite charming in affect. The wood actually takes on a very old appearance rather fast, especially in the folk style chairs, table, trunks/chest and the related. Even a tree as small as 8" BHD can yield a nice set of chair and a plethra of turning stock! Give it a shot...History and thousands of us can't be all wrong...

And actually, neither Dustin nor John would agree with you (I'm 90%) of their views on this. It would be a mix (as we all are different) of what I originally advised and later voices added to this conversation with real experience of this nature. Again,..."I think"...is not a foundation to advise from in my view of it. 

This is a limb whorl and turning them is tricky...even thinking of dry turning something like this will most likely yield much higher losses, green and slow processing to dry is the only method I know of that would keep losses down, and yield better success...

It's up to Quickstep to now figure out...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> Did you even read that article from John Jordan that Tim posted. It's been too many years since I turned green wood so I can't remember if I did everything exactly the same so at some time I will make another attempt. Right not I don't have a live tree to cut down. The only wood I have is a standing dead white oak tree which wouldn't be good for the test. Setting aside my experiences from what was written in the article if John Jordan was in this conversation he would say it was bad advise for Quickstep to turn his platter with green wood.


Steve, AGAIN sir I restate that as a Mod or even a older WWT'r whom people should have a higher respect for, should be handing out "CORRECT facts/ advice" on things asked OR at least back-up and state you mis-spoke out of context or TOO quickly. I had to the other day here as even I overlooked a part of statement that was critical.

#2...WE as humans CAN'T have a answer for EVERYTHING posted (hint, hint) NOR have the knowledge of ALL the processes sharply on our minds ( I do achieve to BUT FALL short of) to quickly spout out correct answers.....SOME things require more INFO or DEEPER study.

I'M NOT saying to give on ALL your dry wood thoughts AS I ALSO have knowledge on the pros AND cons of BOTH .....AND there is a PROPER place for them BOTH!!!! What I find most of the time ISN'T the actual fact(s) it was green or dry BUT the PROPER techniques (OR LACK OF) used to work them AND the projects " went to Hades in a handbasket" INCLUDING proper JOINERY.

As a Mod for you to get on here AND BASH a process that FROM your own admittance YOU MAY have been improperly doing is WRONG!!!!
There's things I see you post that are SPOT ON with the reply......there are several other Mods here that ONLY answer to the FACTS/skills they know and understand....I HIGHLY ADMIRE that....it's a sign of wisdom, patience and endurance (YES patience to not quickly reply without rethought or study or simply " I might not have the correct answer"). I think you have expertise knowledge in areas that I can't touch on AND I DON'T go spouting my "I think" opinion against them when I'm NOT honed in a area of skill.

Opinion, EVERYONE has one even I, BUT I have to choose wisely when I need to keep it in the box in my head and not use it to stir up more confusion on proper techniques. It's OK to even state "...from my experience this is how it turned out...BUT I'm not sure why or what I MAY have done to cause.... " We can all learn from that as this opens doors for discussion NOT battles.

Steve again as the last time I stood up....this IS NOT to have you STOP ....BUT to open your eyes as you may not realize you do it, to build up a better respect and yearn to have a GREAT place here for people to learn correctly and NOT see a bunch of bickering.

I chose to post here so I apologize to the OP. I didn't want to OPEN a new thread for everyone to jump into conversation, only the ones that's been following. I ONLY want to see this site improve and be the GO TO for firm advice.

I have more BUT I choose to refrain....enough is enough.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Tennessee Tim said:


> ... there is a PROPER place for them BOTH!!!! What I find most of the time ISN'T the actual fact(s) it was green or dry BUT the PROPER techniques (OR LACK OF) used to work them AND the projects " went to Hades in a handbasket" INCLUDING proper JOINERY...


Can I get an...A'men!

Thank you, Tim!

*That statement encompasses the most critical elements I could possibly stress...
*
I'm asked by students often..." but isn't it going to dry?

Yes, it is! And of the many "secrets" to green woodworking is actually knowing this more intimately than modern woodworkers usually have had a chance or chose to learn to its full extent. 

Wood moves (dry or green) and if you work green wood if moves more, but usually in only one direction and dries in place...My job is to work in concert with the piece of wood so it "dries" where I want it to...and obviously it can be done or I would be out of a profession...LOL!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Steve, AGAIN sir I restate that as a Mod or even a older WWT'r whom people should have a higher respect for, should be handing out "CORRECT facts/ advice" on things asked OR at least back-up and state you mis-spoke out of context or TOO quickly. I had to the other day here as even I overlooked a part of statement that was critical.
> 
> #2...WE as humans CAN'T have a answer for EVERYTHING posted (hint, hint) NOR have the knowledge of ALL the processes sharply on our minds ( I do achieve to BUT FALL short of) to quickly spout out correct answers.....SOME things require more INFO or DEEPER study.
> 
> ...


Being a moderator has nothing to do with my opinion as a woodworker. I'm a member first and a moderator second and entitled to my opinion. At the moment I don't know if I was wrong or not about turning green wood and end checking. From the article you posted John said he turned wood at 80% moisture content. Where I live I don't think I could cut down any tree on my place and get a moisture content half of that. Anyway if I could eliminate the end checking if I turned a platter and it warped from turning the wood green I would consider the platter defective and pitch it. I just don't do that sort of work. I would rather laminate kiln dry wood and turn that than invest my time in something unpredictable.


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## ahowell (Apr 18, 2018)

To the heart of the matter: the photo shown is not a Pine (Pinus) species. It is Norfolk Island Pine (Araucaria excela), a tropical wood which has its branches in a radial pattern about the trunk. This wood is usually turned wet. I have never turned this wood dry, but always wet. There is very little warping and if there is any cracking, it is at the pith. This cracking can be minimized by CA glue in the pith area only. As the wood dries after turning to final thickness. some separation of the branch knots may occur, but again, CA glue will generally take care of this.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

ahowell said:


> To the heart of the matter: the photo shown is not a Pine (Pinus) species. It is Norfolk Island Pine (Araucaria excela), a tropical wood which has its branches in a radial pattern about the trunk. This wood is usually turned wet. I have never turned this wood dry, but always wet. There is very little warping and if there is any cracking, it is at the pith. This cracking can be minimized by CA glue in the pith area only. As the wood dries after turning to final thickness. some separation of the branch knots may occur, but again, CA glue will generally take care of this.



Thank you for that perspective. I used that photo as an example of the look I'm hoping to get. The log I have has branches in a radial pattern around the trunk, but mine is a mine. I'd welcome any guidance based on that. Thanks.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Note to Readers...I did an edit to a comment that should be done offline...Apologies for the confusion...



ahowell said:


> To the heart of the matter: the photo shown is not a Pine (Pinus) species. It is Norfolk Island Pine (Araucaria excela), a tropical wood which has its branches in a radial pattern about the trunk. This wood is usually turned wet. I have never turned this wood dry, but always wet. There is very little warping and if there is any cracking, it is at the pith. This cracking can be minimized by CA glue in the pith area only. As the wood dries after turning to final thickness. some separation of the branch knots may occur, but again, CA glue will generally take care of this.


Hello Ahowell,

Welcome...!!!...and Thank you...

Great catch on speciation I.D.!!

I never took the time to look that closely enough...My mistake!

The O.P.'s request was more on my mind than what actual species it was, and that detail is important...For sure! 

With that information added I couldn't agree more. Turning dry would be a challenge at its very best, and with much higher losses of turning blanks...if even possible at all relatively speaking. Like most things I'm sure it could be...made to work...or figured out, but for what reason I'm not sure? Typically this work is (as you stated)...*" turned wet."*

What little time and design work on this species I have had (e.g. project in New Zealand) it does seem to be similar to White Pine.

From my perspective again, which is based on actually turning different pine species...not just an "I think" opinion...End grain turning in this species is challenging to begin with. Trying to "reinvent wheels" with experimenting with other methods, when traditional methods work just fine, seems pointless to me, but what the heck...Go for it, if someone wants to make things more challenging for themselves...

The biggest challenge with whorls you just pointed out yourself, is the knots peeling up and out of the encapsulating wood. I like your idea of incorporating CA glues, but for my purposes and approaches, these can affect the types of finishes I use. 

In turn, what I find helpful is waxing heavily to mitigate moisture loss down to a standstill, and using penetrating oil blends to lock the wood fibers together. From my experience, this acts almost like a natural Polyethylene glycol in a way. The "free water" is replaced in the cells by the oil/resin/wax mixture, and the rest of the wood structure dermally (or just under) is stabilized by the oil. Then as the drying continues, it's at such a protracted rate that stresses are relieved more evenly, thus halting (or greatly arresting) what checking might have otherwise taken place...


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