# Stupid Noob question



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

I understand the need fo safety. I also understand the need for companies to cover their posteriors in this sue happy society. What I am not sure I understand is the need for all the "safety" equipment on tools these days. I see the blade guard on my miter saw and have no problem with that. It does it's job without getting in the way. I have NEVER seen a table saw used with the safety equipment that comes with it. When I got my saw, I assembled it and left off the safety equipment. All that being said, I was always taught that the most important piece of safety equipment sits between your ears, so I look at what I am doing with that in mind. I always use a push stick anytime my hands would have been near the blade. I guess my question is: How neccesary is all this safety equipment? How many of you use it all the way it is designed?

I'm not looking for validation to do something stupid, but I've seen several instances where the safety equipment (IMO) reduces safety by obscuring your view of the work. Is this a case of it really is safer to use the equipment BUT you have to learn how?


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Scotty,
no such thing as a stupid question. As I get older (52 now), I tend to be more and more safety oriented without getting hung up on it. I always wear safety glasses, and I have re-installed the blade guard on my delta table saw. I try not to disconnect it unless absolutely necessary. It doesn't hurt to be safety conscious, just don't let it get the better of you. I did a lot of really stupid things in my younger days, and have only one messed up finger tip and a broken ankle to show for it. I consider myself extremely lucky to not have been hurt any worse. I think if you think things through, you won't have any problems.
Mike Hawkins


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## AZ Termite (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't usually install safety devises. The first table saw I bought I installed all the safety equip. that it came with. It only took a couple of days before I took it all off. It was bulky and awkward. The saw I have now I don't even have the safety stuff for it. Since then I have been very careful to pay attention to what I am doing. It is a rule here that if a tool is running no one can come into the shop until it is turned off. It only takes a fraction of a second to lose a finger or worse. The biggest thing is to always be aware of what you are doing and don't do things the tools are not made to do.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Well I too don't use the safety equipment that came with my TS, but I was always told respect the tools your using, never leave the blade up on the TS when not in use, only raise the blade high enough to make the cut and use a push stick. I do use glasses mostly because I have worn them for 40 yrs and it makes it easier to see, Hearing protection a most since I lost 10% of it in the Marines although I never take my eyes off the blade intentionally, I'm liking the idea of nobody enters the shop if tools are running.

See always learning something new.

I may not use the regular safety equipmint but I wish I had enough to buy the Saw Stop when I was looking for a new cabinet saw. That saw is just to cool.


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## creative novice (Jul 25, 2008)

AZ Termite said:


> It is a rule here that if a tool is running no one can come into the shop until it is turned off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I think most of us would agree that if the safety guards on our equipment were easier to use, we would use them more often. Newer saws on the market are starting to come with ready to click in safety guards and riving knives. That I think would encourage me to use them more often.


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## Bigred15 (Dec 22, 2008)

When I was in the Army, I "volunteered" to become the Company Safety NCO. This included writing reports on any and all safety related incidents that happened in the Company. That, combined with my lovely wife's paranoia, has caused me to become much more aware of safety related issues. I use almost all of my safety related equipment and wear ballistic glasses and gloves when ever I am in the shop. Heck I even wear the stuff when I'm mowing grass. I may over do it, but after all these years I've learned that I am a target. If something bad can happen, it will probably happen to me. I say use it, its there for a reason. My .02 cents.


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## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

To be clear, I use eyes and ears and look to make sure I'm out of the line of fire. I was referring specifically to safety equipment on the tools themselves. I wouldn't go out of my way to remove the shield on my miter saw, but at this point I wouldn't go out of my way to put the safety equipment on my tablesaw.


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## AZ Termite (Dec 20, 2008)

Julie, I made that rule after being startled when one of the kids came in the shop. Like I said it only takes a fraction of a second to lose a finger or worse.


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## Domer (Mar 23, 2008)

*Tool Safety*

I agree that a lot of guards on table saws in particular are not as well designed as they should be. 

But, I can see no reason to use a table saw without at least a splitter. It doesn't get in the way and makes your saw way safer.

We had two members of our local woodworkers guild injured the past few months because they did not have a splitter on their saws. That's two out of about 50 members. 


Read Kelly Mehller's book on Table Saws or look at his video. 

Domer


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## Barry Ward (Mar 22, 2008)

*stupid noob question*

First an foremost,I will never question someone for being as safe as possible.I am one of the guilty ones that does not use a blade guard on my TS,because of the fine cutting I do,but I try to be very carefull.I have had two fingers messed up on two different time's,but was lucky and just ended up with miner scars.One tool you NEVER want to remove the blade guard on is a miter saw,as there is no rime or reason to as you can see exactly where your blade is cutting.


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## BORKBOB (Feb 9, 2009)

There is no question that factory guards and splitters leave a lot to be desired. I got interested in table saw safety after buying two used saws that did not have the stock safety gear. A Craftsman hybrid still had the splitter bracket so I fashioned a snap in splitter. The next step was a ShopNotes overhead guard that has dust collection built in. 

When I bought a used Grizzly 1023 I came up with a retractable splitter that mounted in place of the splitter bracket and could be pulled up or pushed down to the desired height. Again, I used the overhead guard. 

In a discussion similar to this one someone declared that an aftermarket riving knife was not possible. It took over a year, but I proved him wrong :icon_smile:










I would encourage everybody to give table saw safety some thought. There are many options out there and while some ain't cheap, they are a one-time purchase. That said, it is also extremely easy to get injured with safety gear in place if we fail to remain focused. As has been said, the most important safety device is between our ears.


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## dollis (Dec 28, 2008)

Has anyone seen the "sawstop" video that time warp did? That is a good idea if you can afford it. Everyone is an idiot at some point in their life (yes, *you* also and me of course:laughing, so companies need to idiot proof everything. Coming soon to a store near you idiot proof toilet paper.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Bigred15 said:


> When I was in the Army, I "volunteered" to become the Company Safety NCO. This included writing reports on any and all safety related incidents that happened in the Company. That, combined with my lovely wife's paranoia, has caused me to become much more aware of safety related issues. I use almost all of my safety related equipment and wear ballistic glasses and gloves when ever I am in the shop. Heck I even wear the stuff when I'm mowing grass. I may over do it, but after all these years I've learned that I am a target. If something bad can happen, it will probably happen to me. I say use it, its there for a reason. My .02 cents.


 I kind of know how you feel but I look at it a different way. I have been bitten by 8 spiders that required medical attention and 4 hospital stays for 1-2 weeks each 4 black widows, 1 brown window, 2 wolf spiders and one that wasn't sure what the hell it was. I have permanent damage and scars to both legs from the spider bites. I have caught on fire 2nd and 3rd degree burns 20% of body, had my spine pushed an inch and a half out of place, torn rotator cuff 3 times, and a rare blood disease that hospitalized me 10 times in 2 years. I figure what else could possibly happen?

Oh I was also the safety NCO USMC, and I'm only 42 and evidently live in spider hell, nothing kills them and my doctors say I should give up woodworking since Black widows like wood piles. 

Yeah right, I give up my Shop the day they pry my tools from my cold dead hands.


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## BORKBOB (Feb 9, 2009)

Richard,

You sound like a corpsman's worst nightmare :laughing:

See if you can find some hedge apples; they are said to repel spiders. 

Doc (L 3/3 and L 3/4 1969)


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Richard,
Holy cow man. I don't like spiders and snakes.......but I never got bit by any. I guess I won't whine anymore when I get a purple heart sliver and have to dig it out. :laughing:
Mike Hawkins


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## Itchy Brother (Aug 22, 2008)

Sorry to hear of all those problems Brown !Maybe you should give up living under the porch!Holy Cow man what state do you live in?? Sounds like your the victim of VooDoo or something.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

BORKBOB said:


> Richard,
> 
> You sound like a corpsman's worst nightmare :laughing:
> 
> ...


*Hey Doc , I will have to look for those Hedge Apples,Never heard of them but will try. I was going to plant Rosemary for the same reason.*

*Engineers, Crash Fire & Rescue, & 3rd Marine Security 86-91*

*Semper Fi *


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

firehawkmph said:


> Richard,
> Holy cow man. I don't like spiders and snakes.......but I never got bit by any. I guess I won't whine anymore when I get a purple heart sliver and have to dig it out. :laughing:
> Mike Hawkins


 
Hey Mike believe it or not I found a lady on another forum like 2 months ago that was wondering if anyone else had my problem. She seems to have been bitten by 8 black widows and 2 rattle snakes. It could always be worse. :laughing:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Itchy Brother said:


> Sorry to hear of all those problems Brown !Maybe you should give up living under the porch!Holy Cow man what state do you live in?? Sounds like your the victim of VooDoo or something.


 
Itchy I live in Louisiana, I don't think its VooDoo just payack for something I probbly did as a youngster or just bad luck. Better to have bad luck then no luck at all. You know how you try and tell kids bugs are more scared of you then you are of them, or if you leave them alone they will leave you alone. Those sayings don't work here. I always tell the kids don't worry about the spiders they won't do you anything. there response is not as long as I'm around. We did have my 7 year old nephew thinking I was going to turn into Spiderman.


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## CAFrye (Mar 15, 2009)

In light of great conversation, I will make my first entry into this sites forums. rrbrown sounds like me in 15 years. I am only 26, also military, 11 scorpion stings (only hurt the first few times), 4 rattle snake bites (hurt every time), and only one black widow bite (only needed that pain once), but also have had the valuable events of one bullet wound, blew out my knee 3 times (same knee), and tried to catch a line drive baseball with the tip of my thumb (multiple compound fracture w/ dislocations).

Moving all of this to shop and worksite safety, I'm the second son of a fourth generation mason, and my father loved the saying (military guys have heard this one a few times) "do as I say, not as I do!", and that was how I was tought from a very young age to use mixers, wet saws, high-power drills, and grinders while climbing around 4 stories of scaffolding. All of that being said, those who get too comfortable in their work environment become complacent, stop respecting their equipment, and ultimately become examples or reasons for the rest of us by paying "tuition in the school of life". I've seen hands lost in mixers, people skewer themselves on rebar after falling off scaffolding, and even one idiot shoot himself in the ankle with an M-16 all because they got a little too comfortable.

For myself, I will only remove safety equipment if it gets in the way, it's there for a reason. When my son gets old enough to start working with my shop tools, he will never use tools without the equipment, therefore I don't let him see me do it. 80% of habits are learned from observing the habits of those that teach us, hence my bad safety habits for the most part, learned from my father. But I can fully agree that no safety device can replace your brain!


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

CAFrye said:


> In light of great conversation, I will make my first entry into this sites forums. rrbrown sounds like me in 15 years. I am only 26, also military, 11 scorpion stings (only hurt the first few times), 4 rattle snake bites (hurt every time), and only one black widow bite (only needed that pain once), but also have had the valuable events of one bullet wound, blew out my knee 3 times (same knee), and tried to catch a line drive baseball with the tip of my thumb (multiple compound fracture w/ dislocations).
> 
> Damn forgot about the Knees also 3 x both. In 15 years you are poised to be worse then me at the rate you are going.
> 
> ...


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

I've had two nasty accidents. A good hand surgeon's name and phone # is taped to my wall. No need for details here, just that neither accident resulted from the lack of a guard or any mechanical safety device. Both happened due to an underabundance of cognition. Read: STUPIDITY.

Scorpions, black widows, brown recluses, rattle snakes and Gila monsters are all around us here. Luckily, I've never been bitten by anything more dangerous than a Kissing bug.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yee Gads you miltary guys are tough!*

As the grandson of a dirt farmer I lost a finger tip in the thrashing machine, rode the cow in the apple orchard with no mishap, got stepped on by the horse, and stung 50 times by the wasps in the old Model A, get high sided off my 350 Honda, heard the helmet hit the concrete, separated a shoulder, got knocked off the ladder by the branch I was chain sawing, slid off the garage roof into a pile of sand, God and my mom were watching on that one, but still believe in Murphy's Law and the Law of Gravity. ..... and I was only a Cub Scout! It could have been worse. Enough whining here, sir. I will post a copy of a post I made re Table Saw Safety for all who may have missed before. It relates to guards and safety equipment and the whys of KICKBACK:







*Kickback, lessons learned* 
Most of you already know that a structured or manufactured wood like plywood or MDF or other manufactured sheet goods "generally speaking" will not close up behind the blade and pinch, the cause of most kickbacks, because they are stable. Other "natural woods, like pine and oaks MAY close up the kerf behind the blade and pinch and kick back. Therefore, use a splitter or riving knife which ever works or fits when ripping lumber off trees and when sawing sheet goods it's not "necessary". Don't get me wrong I've had plywood kick back from operator error, but not from the above condition. I was looking at my "welders leather apron" the other day and thought what a great shop apron for table saw duty, especially ripping. It would provide more protection than cotton or poly, IF a kickback should occur. Ballistic nylon would be best, but the best policy is never stand directly infront of a horse or a table saw when either is running! :yes:
I have NO spiltter on by sheet goods saw, a Craftsman 12" motorized, but I DO have a splitter on my 12", 5 HP Powermatic used for ripping exclusively. My first cut on that saw when it was new OOTB, was ripping a scrap of pine from a crate. (no splitter, right, you know how to rip. right?) The wood EXPLODED after it pinched the back side of the blade and shot all the way across the shop! No blood no tears, just a whole lot more RESPECT! I also use a zero clearance throat plate at all times. :yes: It helps resist the temptation to go down into the throat plate after a thin sliver gets stuck, while the blade is still spinning. :no::thumbdown: I had a kickback a few days ago, and it actually loosened the blade off the arbor, so I jambed a scrap into in after I had turned the saw off.. WOW! That was scary. Kickback occured when ripping a narrow piece against the fence wasn't pushed completely thru and pushed down as it exited the blade...overarm dust collector in the way! No Blood, no tears, just a lesson learned. :thumbsup: Move the collector out of the way, and a pressure hold down roller behind the blade might have helped. That's why I'm am passing on this rather wordy response. Bad advice is plentiful, Good advice...priceless. Off for now, Bill:smile:


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## dollis (Dec 28, 2008)

*Being safe meens dont work with idiots!*

When I was doing some dismantling and removal of some equipment, I heard a coworker say “Hey man. Watch this!" These four words literally changed my life. He drew back a 2.5lb blacksmiths hammer (small sledge with a V point on the other side) and hit a cast aluminum bearing holding 900lbs of steel. The bearing shattered just as he expected it to but, he did not think where it would go. I was pinned against a block wall for 3 1/2 hrs before I was finally cut out. The whole time I was pinned down with the weight on my right leg. My ACL was tore, right thigh muscle was crushed, the skin was tore away from the muscle and the muscle was tore from the bone. I was in rehab for 4 1/2 months before the swelling went down enough to see the ACL tear. I had 1 1/2 L of fluid drained from my leg every 3 days for 2 months. I had the ACL repaired (on Christmas Eve) and was in rehab for another 2 1/2 months. I still to this day have a "dent" in my right thigh 5" wide and 1/2" deep. The crush injury was not done messing up my life with just the 9 months of pain, not by a long shot. 2 yrs later, I found it had been causing blood clots the hard way. Super bowl Sunday I was playing a number game with my son on the computer when my chest felt like I had a hot poker stuck in my heart and my left shoulder went dead. I could not move it and felt like it was on fire. My wife took me to a local hospital where I was diagnosed as having a anxiety attack (yes for real) The doctor was in shorts, ball cap and a jersey (looked like he was walking out the door). The head nurse waited until he left and brought in another doctor who looked at my left hand(all my fingers were blue) and screamed for the nurse to get and ETA on Star flight, followed by a too long get a bus ready NOW. I was in and out for a little at this point I remember the doctor telling the ambulance driver that if he stopped or slowed down I was dead. Last thing I remember was being shoved into the ambulance and hearing the sounds of the ambulance crossing a rumble strip and feel the ambulance driving in the ditch around traffic. I started to regain conscious about 3 days later in an ICU ward only to hear someone yell for a doctor and see my brother sitting in the room (we have had a VERY rocky relationship) and I thought OMG if he is here I am going to DIE. I felt a small burning in my arm and all went black again. Six days later, I woke up. My wife and kids were there this time and no brother. She was told that I had about a 10-15 % chance to make it. I had a six-inch long blood clot in my shoulder that they had to put a blood thinner drip on to get it to dissolve. They also found over 100 other clots in my lungs. My heart valve was tore when the clot went threw it so I have a hole in my heart now. I now have a filter in my heart that looks like an umbrella frame to break up any more clots that come loose. I was AGAIN in rehab this time I was inpatient for over 3 months. I had to learn to walk again my leg muscles were shot. I was on a walker for over a month, about 6 weeks on crutches, followed by 4 months as an outpatient. I was in the hospital 2-3 more times for swelling in my legs, it would get so bad my skin would split open and leak fluid out. One weekend I went in and put on an IV, I lost 43 lbs in 2 ½ days. I spent the next 18 months with my doctor every 2 weeks trying to get my life back to normal we did everything we could to have a normal life until I finally realized “I can’t do this”. I had to give up many things that I enjoyed for the ability to walk the next day. I am on disability now (officially for seizures, hand tremors, cardio limitation, and muscular limitations). It took me two days after I drilled and faced bunch of pen blanks to be able to walk down the stairs to the shop again.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Sorry to here that Dollis, I agree that its the idiots that get you hurt. That is the way I caught on Fire. I told my wife I was going to tow a fellow Marine's car home. Of course I being a nice guy decided to try and help him figure out what was wrong. After some checking it seamed like it was not getting gas so I put gas in a cup and instructed him only start the car after I have poured the gas in the carburetor and said start it now. Seams simple enough follow directions right. It never darned on me that this young Marine who was only out of boot camp like a year would have such trouble following orders. Well the first time went good but the car didn't stay running so we tried it again. This is when I realized he was a idiot. Just as I started pouring the gas in the carburetor he turns the key, it back fired and ignited the gas which was now all over me since he scared the crap out of me and I jumped back. (Just not as quick as the gas ignited). Of course my hand was on fire and everyone says drop and roll but this was my thinking. There are flames on my hand gas on the ground and how the hell do you roll all sides of your hand anyway. I bumped my shirt with the hand that was burning and now my hand, shirt, stomach and chest was burning. Idiot was still sitting in the driver’s seat with his thumb you know where. Luckily I had another Marine that came to my aid and smothered the fire with his wet shirt. He then asked what I wanted to do? I looked at my hand and noticed the skin was burned bad and had melted off my fingers then hardened into little drips like water just before it drips from something. I then said get me to sickbay. They packed me in ice and sent me by ambulance to the hospital. I don't like pain meds but I do have a very high tolerance to pain. This would be tested. they stripped my clothes and put me in a shower to rinse off the remaining gas. "Another idiot was present and accounted for" he put me in the shower and turned on the hot water by mistake. I was going to kill him, I chased that idiot through the hospital nude until they finally got me and sedated me for like the next 2 1/2 days. Except for a brief moment of hearing my wife who had just had our first son 3 weeks earlier say " I thought you were just supposed to tow the car" and a brief stop on side the road to finally take a leak which I had to do before the fire, I was out until the 3rd day. Oh to make matters worse my mom flew in and stayed with my wife and newborn son in a hotel near the burn unit for that week. My mom and wife didn't get along at this time in my life and Mom drove her crazier then she already was. good thing she don't read this forum. As I said I have a high tolerance for pain and don't like pain pills, With the exception of a migraine which affects the mind I prefer to use my mind to control the pain. This generally works but I probably should have waited at least 6 more hours to stop the pain pills instead of when I first woke up. I had to go get the burnt skin scrubbed off and it was rough. Fortunately I heal well especially in my younger days. I was supposed to be in the hospital for several weeks lose movement in my hand and need skin graphs according to my doctors at the burn unit I was in. My response was “Hell with that doc I’m going home in a week". I left the hospital 1 week later, had 30 days of leave to recover at home, have full movement of hand and actually now you can't tell I was burned except for it being more sensitive to temperatures cold and hot. 

With the exception of a select few people I rather work alone. This too can cause injury so when it says it takes 2 people they are generally right.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I have had two incidents both of which required hand surgeons, luckily Louisville is the leader in hand surgery with a couple full hand transplants on the books so I was in good hands. The first was with a table saw, I won't get into it as I posted about it in the "See the damage" thread. The other was from a chisel. I had just got done honing it to the point it would shave the hair off my arm. Was cleaning out a dovetail joint and was holding the piece in my left hand for what I thought was just some simple clean up work. I SHOULD HAVE PUT IT IN THE VICE THAT I BLED ALL OVER. Chisel slipped went into my left hand middle finger right at the middle knuckle. Blood started spraying out of the wound and it would not stop bleeding as I thought it would. Turns out I had got an artery but missed my tennon. Still took about 4 hours to get fixed up and about 1 month of recovery. Still can't bend that finger all the way.


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