# Advice on Joinery and Tools for Joinery



## djtech2k (Dec 19, 2020)

I am very novice but am enjoying woodworking projects in my garage, aka pretend workshop. I have been slowly adding tools to expand knowledge and capability and the workshop is well not ideal but I do my best.

Based on a little bit of experience and some future projects I’d like to do, I’d like to be able to do more joinery. I have been reading/watching to learn and buying some tools to test.

I have created some farmhouse style stuff, like desk, end tables, night stand, etc, which I have joined the table tops with 1x6 using my table saw, pocket holes, and clamps. It’s worked ok and I learned a lot but I’d like to do more looking ahead. I have bought a couple dowel jig kits and have been testing. One was a plastic milescraft kit and I honestly can’t see how I could use it. It does not clamp and moves around. I bought the dose jigs from rockler and I like them so far. The alignment concerns me as there’s no margin for error and these jigs only seem to be for edge joining.

I just got a Dewalt biscuit joiner for Christmas and haven’t used it yet. I read all sorts of mixed thoughts on it but it was a gift so I want to figure out how best to use it. As of now, I’m guessing table tops are the best use as it will help alignment. I see people complain that it adds no strength but I haven’t used it yet.

I have always wanted a Festool domino but it’s so pricey. I did just find a used one for around $600 so I am wondering if I should consider it. I mean it’s still a lot and I am a novice but it seems like a good deal. I have watched a lot of videos on it and it seems great. Now I know purists will trash it but if it works well and makes the job easier, I am all for it.

I am looking for some expert opinions on this stuff and any recommendations you might have.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Get a book on "Joinery" because it will have illustrations of all the basic types of woodworking joinery that you will use and why.








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The web has the same illustrations, but a book is better reference.
Get another book "Understanding Wood" because without the knowledge of wood movments and the various types and species of wood, you end up being frustrated when your joints fail and split open. Understanding Wood : A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology by R. Bruce Hoadley (1980, Hardcover) for sale online | eBay
Get a book or You Tube video on types of wood glues, and how and when to use them.
Get some sharp chisels and learn how to make them sharper. A good brand at a reasonable price is Narex on Amazon:


Amazon.com : Narex chisels


Marples is another good brand:


Amazon.com : Marples chisels


Use a wood mallet or hardwood block for striking the end of the chisel.
Get a few sizes of back and Japanese style pull saws for cutting tenons and dovetails.
Learn about laminating thin strips to get curved shapes like chair backs.
Steam bending is another method used often.
Finally I'd get a 14" bandsaw before I would get a table saw because they are very versatile and will also cut curves, tenons, and resaw very well.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

djtech2k said:


> I am very novice but am enjoying woodworking projects in my garage, aka pretend workshop. I have been slowly adding tools to expand knowledge and capability and the workshop is well not ideal but I do my best.
> 
> Based on a little bit of experience and some future projects I’d like to do, I’d like to be able to do more joinery. I have been reading/watching to learn and buying some tools to test.
> 
> ...


 Have you checked out an older Craftsman doweling jig?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

You don't need special tools for joinery, most joints can be done with basic hand tools. 
Practice and then determine if you really need to use biscuits or pocket screws.


Joints 101


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

Just my opinion...

Get a router or a dado set and make yourself a bookshelf using rabbets and dados. Those are the simplest joinery skills that you need, and they come in handy a lot.

After that, try your hand at some half laps and bridle joints. Routers and table saws work well for these too.

The ideal is to get them well-fit right off the saw, but when that isn't happening, hand tools can be a godsend. The biggest advantage of going the hand tool route is that you are teaching yourself to hand tune the fit. (IMO, I know others will disagree)


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

djtech2k said:


> I am very novice but am enjoying woodworking projects in my garage, aka pretend workshop. I have been slowly adding tools to expand knowledge and capability and the workshop is well not ideal but I do my best.
> 
> Based on a little bit of experience and some future projects I’d like to do, I’d like to be able to do more joinery. I have been reading/watching to learn and buying some tools to test.
> 
> ...


If you really want to learn joinery I would consider the following. I would purchase a good quality set of chisels, you do not want to scrimp here. I would consider brands such as Two Cherry. They are fairly priced good quality steel. I would learn how to sharpen and hone these chisels, which means purchasing the appropriate stones. I would get an accurate square, such as Starrett. I would geta decent quality back saw, and finally a good shoulder plane. Old Stanley's are good, I like Lie Neilsen, put they are pricey. With this small collection of tools you will learn how to cut everything from lap joints, mortise and tenon, to dovetails. Any joint you can imagine. Doing it this way you will truly learn joinery and have a much better understanding of what accuracy and precision really is. Then, if you want to buy toys to make it easier, you will have an appreciation and knowledge to go with it. Just how I learned and am grateful for the process. I learned that a $5,000 Martin guitar does not make you a musician.


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## djtech2k (Dec 19, 2020)

BigCountry79 said:


> Just my opinion...
> 
> Get a router or a dado set and make yourself a bookshelf using rabbets and dados. Those are the simplest joinery skills that you need, and they come in handy a lot.
> 
> ...


This is very similar to my approach so far. I have a table saw, a compact router, a dado stack, and a small router table. I have not used some of these yet as I am trying to pick the best joint type as my projects come along. My current project I am using pocket holes because I am familiar with it. I have other project looking ahead and I always think of using things like dowels, biscuits, or dominos because I like pocket holes but hate covering them up.

I do not want to discount in any way the folks that have suggested learning this craft with hand tools. I totally get that and do not disagree. I have a cheaper set of chisels but will invest in better ones. I will learn this over time, but this is a hobby so I do not have a ton of time to learn all of these things and still get stuff done. I have always looked at the biscuit and domino joiners and wanted them for this reason. Well I now have a biscuit joiner and have an eye on a used domino joiner.

I would love to be good at things like mortise and tenons, but I know that will take a long time for me to learn and get decent at doing. Without the time and a proper workshop, I think I need to have a way to make joining easier for the immediate time being while I am learning the manual method with the precision that it requires.


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## AwesomeOpossum74 (Jan 27, 2017)

I was like you. I fell down the "Tim Taylor" (grunt grunt) power tools rabbit hole for a while. I got done what I needed to get done, but I wasn't inspired to actually build for the sake of building. Then a friend showed me some of his hand tools. The switch was flipped, and I converted.

There are several benefits to using hand tools over power tools, and IMHO very few downsides.

Unless you're a big collector, hand tools take up relatively little space. Most of my hand tools fit into a single rolling tool cabinet. They don't take the entire floor like a big table saw.
A very small set of tools can make just about any joint you can think of. Dovetails can be made by a single hand saw and a chisel. No big, expensive, complicated jigs. Very intricate designs can be made with the same tools.
They are usable in many different ways to accomplish many different tasks. A simple chisel is much more than just a blade on a stick.
They do not require power. I can woodwork if my power goes out. Living in Florida, it's fairly often, especially during hurricane season.
They are not noisy. Just the tap of a mallet to the end of a chisel, or the "chh chh chh" of a hand saw.
Minimal safety concerns. Yes, they're sharp, and they'll teach you to "stay behind the sharp end", but they won't cut your digits off like some of the big power tools.

The only real downside I can think of is they are slower, and perhaps less precise depending on your skill and process.

Some people are hybrid woodworkers. They like to use both powered and traditional tools. That's great! Power tools may make a process quicker, like ripping long boards, or fulfill a process that you can't easily do with hand tools. One big one for me is edge routing and beading, but I get no joy using a router.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

Not everybody believes in dowel joints. They aren't much good for making boxes. Dovetails are much better. Lots of people make boxes with hand cut dovetails, perhaps because they are visible and look nice. 
Dowels are great for making frames. Fewer people make frames with hand chopped mortises, possibly because no one sees them when they are done.
You're correct that these joints require more precision than you can reliably get with a hand drill and guide. It's best done with a small drill press, a tool you will find lots of uses for. This is my setup.








The shop built pneumatic clamp isn't really needed. What is essential is a vertical rather than horizontal work table. I've used this since 1976 or so. It's quick, simple, and reliable. Here's a door I built with it recently.









I set this up a long time ago and haven't modified it much since. This let me move on to learning other aspects of woodworking.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

You mentioned biscuits dowels, domino's and pocket hole screws...

In my opinion, these are mostly repetitive. You don't need to know how to make all of these. None of them except maybe the domino are a replacement for the strength of a mortise and tenon either.

I've never used a dowel

I rarely use my plate jointer

I don't own a domino


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

djtech2k said:


> I will learn this over time, but this is a hobby so I do not have a ton of time to learn all of these things and still get stuff done.


Lots of people don’t have much time, maybe one day on a weekend, maybe even less, so the pressure to get something built is understandable. But the simple fact is anything that requires skill takes time to learn, unless you are satisfied with that.

I really think you should re examine your “git ‘er done” mindset.

You want to just build something or learn ww’ing? It’s a HUGE leaning curve. I’ve been doing it in earnest 35 years and learn something every single day.

You say you want to learn joinery, you have to start by taking time to educate yourself, learn about tools, how to sharpen, how to lay out, how to produce the joint. Sure, a Domino may save you time, but isn’t going to get you around all the other things required. And if you’re really looking to serious joinery you probably need an XL.

That $600 buys a very nice chisel set, sharpening set up and marking tools.

Time will test your methods. Legs attached with pocket screws inevitable fail the “vacuum cleaner ramming” test. A mortise and tenon either moves the table or hurts the vacuum


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

djtech2k said:


> I am very novice but am enjoying woodworking projects in my garage, aka pretend workshop. I have been slowly adding tools to expand knowledge and capability and the workshop is well not ideal but I do my best.
> 
> Based on a little bit of experience and some future projects I’d like to do, I’d like to be able to do more joinery. I have been reading/watching to learn and buying some tools to test.
> 
> ...


You'll have to decide based on your interest which direction you want to go. Good luck


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

djtech2k said:


> I am very novice but am enjoying woodworking projects in my garage, aka pretend workshop. I have been slowly adding tools to expand knowledge and capability and the workshop is well not ideal but I do my best.
> 
> snip


Your garage is not a "pretend" workshop, it is "your workshop", what comes out of it is a reflection of you, there will come a time when you look at something you made way back when, how you view it will depend on what you do now.
A few years ago I was at my son's house, his kids were drawing at a table and chair set I made for him, I was so happy that it had stood the test of time.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

AwesomeOpossum74 said:


> I was like you. I fell down the "Tim Taylor" (grunt grunt) power tools rabbit hole for a while. I got done what I needed to get done, but I wasn't inspired to actually build for the sake of building. Then a friend showed me some of his hand tools. The switch was flipped, and I converted.
> 
> There are several benefits to using hand tools over power tools, and IMHO very few downsides.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily slower, depending on what you are doing. If I have one or two drawers to do I will cut the dovetails by hand in the time it takes me to set up one or two routers and layout the templates. Plus, I can get creative with the pin size and spacing. Your thoughts are right in line with mine. Magazines try to convince people you need to buy a lit of stuff, and that the stuff you buy will instantly make your projects better. That is true almost everything from golf to photography to woodworking. I have a full service shop, but all the equipment came from my business where time was money and production speed was important to making money. Now that I am retired, I enjoy spending an entire afternoon tuning up a single plane.


JohnGi said:


> Not everybody believes in dowel joints. They aren't much good for making boxes. Dovetails are much better. Lots of people make boxes with hand cut dovetails, perhaps because they are visible and look nice.
> Dowels are great for making frames. Fewer people make frames with hand chopped mortises, possibly because no one sees them when they are done.
> You're correct that these joints require more precision than you can reliably get with a hand drill and guide. It's best done with a small drill press, a tool you will find lots of uses for. This is my setup.
> View attachment 434281
> ...


Great looking door. Do you dowel the rails into the stiles, or use your drill press to hog out mortises? I built a jig years ago that allows me to use a plunge router and upspiral to cut 2-1/2 deep mortises. I normally used 3" x 5"x1/2" loose tenons. Always a pain to set up, but I normally did not do more than 40-50 doors a year, so it was liveable.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

BigCountry79 said:


> You mentioned biscuits dowels, domino's and pocket hole screws...
> 
> In my opinion, these are mostly repetitive. You don't need to know how to make all of these. None of them except maybe the domino are a replacement for the strength of a mortise and tenon either.
> 
> ...


I learned a little while ago that I, on a personal level, don't buy tools that only does one thing. A Domino only does one thing, the same thing a router can do with a $10 shop made jig. I have a 15 year old plate joiner but will never buy another, The only thing I use it for is gluing up boards just because it helps align surfaces. I could do that with a router. I don't and wont buy Festool brand because of cost vs. performance. I don't own $100 wood chisels because my $20 chisels do the same thing, I just need to sharpen more often. I don't own a $400 plane, my grandfather's planes consisted of hunks of hardwood, handles and irons his blacksmith buddy made for him and my gradfather made some beautiful furniture. 

Professionally I only buy tools that makes money, aka: saves labor hours. I bought a hollow chisel mortiser that only does one thing, makes square holes but it paid for itself on one door job we did. Someone could throw it in the dumpster and probably wouldn't notice it was gone, not until it was time for it to make money. If that $1500 Festool sander and Vac saved me labor costs, I would buy 5 of them.

Skill and experience makes the craftsmen, not the tools.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

djtech2k said:


> *I just got a Dewalt biscuit joiner for Christmas and haven’t used it yet.* I read all sorts of mixed thoughts on it but it was a gift so I want to figure out how best to use it. As of now, I’m guessing table tops are the best use as it will help alignment. I see people complain that it adds no strength but I haven’t used it yet.
> 
> I am looking for some expert opinions on this stuff and any recommendations you might have.


I hadn't used mine either until a buddy asked if I owned one because he had a project that "required' one. 
Sure, bring it over, he said.








Biscuit joiner project for a buddy


So Walt the computer whiz and budding woodworker calls up and says "Hey, you got a biscuit joiner?" ....Yup, Never used it though. .... "Bring it over, I've got a project I need it for." ....OK, I'll be there shortly and I'll bring the computer with no sound... "see Ya." Actually I brought over...




www.woodworkingtalk.com





It turned out they needed to come to my shop as the thread explains.
I didn't use the Dewalt table, which I removed, also explained above.
I got some "flack" for using it that way, but it turned out, that was the "preferred" way by another woodworker, more experience than I on it's use.

I referenced the jointer off it's wider base on the table which meant that the pieces needed to be "good face down", Not good face up as in the manual!
It went quite well and he soon came up with another project for me, see post number 12.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

GCTony said:


> I learned a little while ago that I, on a personal level, don't buy tools that only does one thing. A Domino only does one thing, the same thing a router can do with a $10 shop made jig. I have a 15 year old plate joiner but will never buy another, The only thing I use it for is gluing up boards just because it helps align surfaces. I could do that with a router. I don't and wont buy Festool brand because of cost vs. performance. I don't own $100 wood chisels because my $20 chisels do the same thing, I just need to sharpen more often. I don't own a $400 plane, my grandfather's planes consisted of hunks of hardwood, handles and irons his blacksmith buddy made for him and my gradfather made some beautiful furniture.
> 
> Professionally I only buy tools that makes money, aka: saves labor hours. I bought a hollow chisel mortiser that only does one thing, makes square holes but it paid for itself on one door job we did. Someone could throw it in the dumpster and probably wouldn't notice it was gone, not until it was time for it to make money. If that $1500 Festool sander and Vac saved me labor costs, I would buy 5 of them.
> 
> Skill and experience makes the craftsmen, not the tools.


I agree...but there's probably a big difference between that $350 lie nielsen smooth plane and that wood bodied plane your grandpa had. It took me a while to admit it and give up my Stanley smoother, but it was a good investment for me.

Like everything, YMMV


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## swp (Dec 17, 2021)

Festool. Great tools, I guess. I don't even look at them, though. $400 for a RO sander would buy about 6 Porter Cables. Nice tools for the wealthy. Well designed, innovative, and patented so they will charge whatever the market will bear for 17 years, then the clones come, like has happened with the track saw.
For edge gluing I have tried them all: dowels, biscuits, splines, loose tenons, pocket screws. What works best? Just glue on a square and jointed edge. I've never had one come apart using modern glue or with the old white glue even. You get perfect alignment every time because there isn't a misplaced dowel, biscuit, spline, or tenon to interfere with a couple well placed blows from a mallet to shift a reluctant board where you want it to be.
I would suggest investing in a set of Narex chisels (best cheap chisels on the market), an old dovetail saw and a tenon saw which you can find cheap on ebay - buy pre-WW II Disston and you won't go wrong, just be sure it's flat and the teeth are all there. There are other good saws out there, but also so much carp that I recommend Disston. After WW II most American tool makers produced lousy hand tools until the 70s, then in the 90s went back to carp again. If you lack the interest to restore an old saw, Lee Valley has some inexpensive saws (relatively inexpensive - $100, not $400). Learn to sharpen them and to cut the joints by hand, then decide if you want a Domino or a biscuit joiner or whatever. These tools are really for production shops and just fill a lot of needed space in a garage. The ROI for Festool in the home shop is very low, IMHO.
Paul Sellers has produced some good videos on joinery. Also Rob Cosman, Frank Klausz, Tage Frid; you will find them all on youtube. I like Sellers because he runs at my speed - slow, but Klausz can cut dovetails faster than I could even find the right router bit to use with a jig. Cosman has a unique take on cutting dovetails and Sellers will show you how to get straight faces on your tenons. These guys are hand tool innovators, or maybe they are just peddling secrets that have been known for 100s of years but kept secret by the guilds -- let's start a conspiracy theory around that.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

B Coll said:


> Great looking door. Do you dowel the rails into the stiles, or use your drill press to hog out mortises? I built a jig years ago that allows me to use a plunge router and upspiral to cut 2-1/2 deep mortises. I normally used 3" x 5"x1/2" loose tenons. Always a pain to set up, but I normally did not do more than 40-50 doors a year, so it was liveable.


I use dowels. There are three 5/8" dowels in each corner. These are the largest dowels I use. This sounds prehistoric, but I started doing this in the days before plunge routers. It worked, and I never felt the need to change. Now that I do own a plunge router, I like to use splines or loose tenons for casework where the material isn't thick enough to get the depth of penetration needed to glue a dowel in place. Always interested in doors people are making if you'd like to share pics.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I used dowels on the Kansas City library Oak interior doors. I believe they were 8/4 thick. Doors were 36x84 had to make them
because specs called for horizontal panels…


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## djtech2k (Dec 19, 2020)

I got the DW682K Dewalt biscuit joiner for Christmas. I have not used it as my current project doesn't need to join, but I plan to test it when its the right tool. I would love to have a Domino but its hard to justify the cost for something I don't know how often I will use it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

A Dewalt biscuit jointer and Festool Domino aren't the same..


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Dominoes aren’t the end all, guys. Think about it - it’s basically a very expensive floating tenon machine - and, it’s a one trick pony.

If I were buying one it would be an XL and I woukd have to have a production shop. I sold my Domino 500 after watching it sit unused 90% of its life. A year and a half after I bought it ($850) I sold it for $1000.

If I we’re seriously into production furniture making, I’d get a horizontal mortiser.

I got better alignment results using biscuits than dominoes. It’s not as accurate as people think, that why Seneca makes the Domiplate


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

DrRobert said:


> Dominoes aren’t the end all, guys. Think about it - it’s basically a very expensive floating tenon machine - and, it’s a one trick pony.
> 
> If I were buying one it would be an XL and I woukd have to have a production shop. I sold my Domino 500 after watching it sit unused 90% of its life. A year and a half after I bought it ($850) I sold it for $1000.
> 
> ...


I think the question was if he could adjust the base plate? I think, confused post as it seems its going compared to a Donino. Again I'm all confused.


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