# Non-poly varnish



## Mattgmann (Aug 10, 2017)

First post here and a long one... I posted this on Reddit, but didn't get any insight. I figure you guys might.

With voc regs, demand, cost, marketing and whatever other factors are in play, alkyd and phenolic resin based varnishes seen harder and harder to find. This sucks. I've never cared for oil based poly (waterborne is a different story). My go to varnishes have all disappeared from production or availability (or easy, cost effective availability). 

So, I thought I'd share my shop standard varnishes at the moment.

Edit: my previous go to alkyd was Pratt & Lambert 38. Very hard for me to source now

Sherwin Williams6403-15925(gloss) 15941(satin) Wood Classics Fastdry oil Varnish
One of the few products that still lists the actual ingredients. Toulene-oil resin (alkyd) thinned with xylene and mineral spirits.

A solid product as the simple formulation makes it predictable. I mix with BLO and thin with mineral spirits (like everyone else with a secret recipe) in different ratios. Resin content is moderate and cures fairly hard. It will thin with everything that makes sense without fuss. It's not an amazing product, but a good enough, old style resin component for formulation finishes.

Ace 16375 solvent based spar varnish. (Phenolic resin/tung from what I can tell)
I have a love hate with this product. It's formulated as a truly traditional spar varnish. As that, the oil content is very high which leads to a softer/flexible, albeit durable finish sorted for outdoor use. I generally don't care for this in a Danish oil/rubbing varnish/wtf ever you call your special sauce varnish in most cases, but it has its use.

For old school/classic high-build varnish looks, this is what you want.

I rarely use it for that though. I like to thin the **** out of it and maybe cut with a bit more oil (or not) and apply a few coats after popping grain, sanding and one more thing ass coat. Then pile on shellac (orange or garnet). A nice, classic looking, deep dark finish.

As a note: I use gloss varnishes in my formulations. I tend to adjust the sheen of pieces down with sanding or steel wool and wax (my go-to) after completion.

So, if anyone has a non-poly varnish they rely on, what is it? How do you use it? How available is it? And how expensive is it?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You can thank the idiots in our government for trying to rid the country of oil based products. 

Unless you are doing a project that is used outdoors don't use a spar varnish. A spar is softer than an interior finish so it can expand and contract with the temperature extremes of the outdoors. As you know Sherwin Williams does make old fashion varnish. Unless you live someplace like California you should be able to get some sent to the store. 

You might have to mail order it but the Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish would be a good finish for you to use. It wouldn't be necessary to use for table tops only. 

As far as applying the varnish if it were me I would spray it. If that isn't an option then use as soft of a paint brush as you can find and apply the varnish as thin as possible with as few strokes as possible. The more you brush varnish causes it to set up prematurely before it has a chance to flow out and shows the brush strokes a lot more. In warm weather you might also add some Flood Penetrol to the varnish. This slows down the drying time so the finish fill flow out better.


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## Mattgmann (Aug 10, 2017)

Does Behlens still offer that finish in a non-poly form? They're a good company, so I'm sure the urethane version is a good product, but I prefer the bonding characteristics of alkyd resins.

I wipe on any finish I can, and spray everything else (I hate brushing).

I'm tempted to set up a breaking bad style lab and start experimenting with polymerizing my own oils.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Mattgmann said:


> Does Behlens still offer that finish in a non-poly form? They're a good company, so I'm sure the urethane version is a good product, but I prefer the bonding characteristics of alkyd resins.
> 
> I wipe on any finish I can, and spray everything else (I hate brushing).
> 
> I'm tempted to set up a breaking bad style lab and start experimenting with polymerizing my own oils.


Yes the Behlen finish is a urethane. The poly in polyurethane is short for Polymer. Polymer is a plastic resin mixed with urethane resin to make polyurethane. Urethane alone is a different finish. I don't know the formula but you could mix your own varnish by mixing linseed oil and 100% tung oil and thin it with mineral spirits. If I were going to make it I would mix the oils 50/50.


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## Mattgmann (Aug 10, 2017)

Urethane is referring to polyurethane. Polyurethanes may be slightly different between manufacturers, but they're all effectively the same in their chemical behaviors. The only other resin types used in varnish are alkyd and phenolic.

Mixing oils doesn't produce a varnish. Resins are combined with oils and thinners to produce varnishes. Alkyd resins and phenolic resins are polymerized oils produced through specific processes. Urethane is very different from these resin types. All have advantage an disadvantages. But I was specifically looking for insight on non-urethane varnishes that aren't hard to get anymore


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I've read good comments about the Ace Hardware varnish. (link below)


Also, There's an Epifanes product called an Accelerator which largely turns their Spar Varnish into a short oil varnish which makes it dry harder. 

I'm aware of at least a couple of people using the Ace and the Epifanes on guitars - it gets hard enough to polish. 



http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12664447


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