# How to remove spur center in head stock



## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Hi guys. I'm trying to remove the spur center in the headstock of this walker-turner lathe I have. I can't find a manual for this thing. I think it's the 5112 model but I'm not for certain. I saw a video where a guy put a Punch Out tool into the back end of a lathe and then it punched out the spur Center. I put a quarter-inch dowel through the back and I don't think I was making contact with the spur tool because it felt like I was hitting something rubber like an O-ring or something. And of the dowel was tapered as if it was being pushed on the edges of it and not making contact with the metal. Should this method work this lathe as well or am I doing something wrong? The chuck tightens and loosens but you can only loosen it until it tightens up against the spur. I have found very limited information on these walker Turner lathes and need some guidance please.

Thanks, 
Curt 









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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think the spur center just knocks out like video you watched. I think what you were hitting that was soft was something foreign in the tube that didn't belong. I've had dirt dobbers make nests in my lathe before. For my lathe I took a 3/8" steel rod and put a wooden handle on the end of it to knock out the center.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

It seems odd to me though that I'm able to put the dowel in to about the length that I'm holding it up to in the picture. Because right there is where the pulleys end it feels like I can't enter into the passageway. Just seems like a curious spot how it lines up perfectly. I hit it with quite a bit of force.









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## t.carpenter00 (Mar 10, 2018)

It looks like it's been in there a while. It'll probably take a few good strikes before you get it. 

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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Normally I would expect a Morse Taper but I see threads under the knurled knob. 

My guess (Really WAG) is that the knurled knob continually unscrewed should push the spur out. If you get to the point where the knurled knob is spinning freely, use a Crescent Wrench. Tighten the wrench lightly around the threads. Put some wood under the wrench to act as a fulcrum and gently pry the spur out.

As I said, it is just a guess.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Once I loosen the knob, it stops once it is pressed up against the spur. These two pictures is pretty much the only information I can find on this lathe.









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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

The knurled knob is confusing, but I read on the PDF sheet that it has Morris 2 tapers. 

The metal rod that pushes out spurs is called a knockout bar. I needed a longer one for my lathe, so I tried a wood dowel. It worked, kinda, but felt spongy. I got a longer steel rod, and it works much better.

I suspect that the spur has been there for a while, and is stuck very well. I suspect that it is a Morris 2 taper (MT2) spur. I believe that at some point, you will want a steel rod to use as a knockout bar. 

I do not understand the knurled knob. I wonder whether it is there to "lock" the spur in place so that it won't fall on someone's toe if it accidentally comes out. 

If it were my lathe, I would do the following:

1. Loosen the knurled knob as far as it will go.
2. Use a tool (pliers?) to try turning the knurled knob a little further to see if it pops out the spur. If it gets tight, stop. 
3. Use a vacuum to suck out whatever might be inside, behind the spur. Try taping a piece of aquarium hose to the end of your vacuum hose and insert the aquarium hose in the knockout hole. 
4. Find a long steel rod that will fit inside the knockout hole. Give it a bonk with a hammer. What happens? Does the spur move at all? Does it bump against the knurled knob? Can you release it the rest of the way?
5. If the spur doesn't move at all, then try giving it some more very firm bonks to see if you can get it to move. What happens?
6. Try the knob again. What happens?



... 10. LAST RESORT: See if you can get some penetrating oil (liquid wrench) into the taper to help release the spur. This is a very BAD idea for many reasons, including the fact that you don't want to lubricate the taper, but maybe there is no other choice. Hopefully others will suggest better ideas.

You may want to think about what happens when the spur pops out. The point is sharp.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Tool Agnostic said:


> The knurled knob is confusing, but I read on the PDF sheet that it has Morris 2 tapers.
> 
> The metal rod that pushes out spurs is called a knockout bar. I needed a longer one for my lathe, so I tried a wood dowel. It worked, kinda, but felt spongy. I got a longer steel rod, and it works much better.
> 
> ...


I think the knurled knob is just a thread protector.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

I look for a long skinny Steel Rod today at work that's smaller in diameter than a quarter inch since that quarter inch dowel seemes to get stuck and wasn't quite skinny enough. I've also included another close-up of that spur head. I can't even see a separation and metal from the shaft of the spur threads. I see a separation and metal around that green disc. So I'm not sure if that green disc is a part of that shaft also or not.









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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Curtislv426 said:


> I look for a long skinny Steel Rod today at work that's smaller in diameter than a quarter inch since that quarter inch dowel seemes to get stuck and wasn't quite skinny enough. I've also included another close-up of that spur head. I can't even see a separation and metal from the shaft of the spur threads. I see a separation and metal around that green disc. So I'm not sure if that green disc is a part of that shaft also or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The green disk holds the seal around the main shaft.

The spur is a morse taper, it's going to take a good smack from the backside to get it out. Look at the visual of the accessories you posted, the spur is on the right.

The the taper on that spur is probably 3-4" long which makes up the difference you are seeing in depth.

Here's the most recent thread where the OP had a similar issue, and we had to convince him to smack the crap out of it, and as expected, it worked...

https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f6/inherited-rockwell-46-111-lathe-stumped-173602/


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

You could try spraying some penetrating fluid through the hole in the back of the spindle, after a minute or so "gently tap" down on the knurled nut as you slowly rotate the spindle with a brass hammer or drift. This sets up a reaction allowing the penetrating fluid to do its job.

You will likely still need a steel rod to knock the arbor out of the spindle, it is tapered so once it moves even a fraction it will release.


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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

Another option is to grab the spur center with vice grips and use that to whack against with a mallet.

If you screw the knurled knob in all the way can you see where the spur center's taper enters the spindle? I wouldn't want to force anything if there's a chance that that knob is somehow a locking device. I'm hoping it's intended to be just a convenient way to release the taper (from a non-rusted in place accessory).


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

From the same sight where you got your other doc:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=2409

Shows a breakdown of the parts.

The knurled nut is called a "spindle nut", likely to remove the spur if it isn't stuck.

Part 51-110 is called a "knock out rod".

It clearly shows the spur is MT.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

shoot summ said:


> From the same sight where you got your other doc:
> 
> http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=2409
> 
> ...


Thanks you. I will try to find a long metal rod that is skinnier than a quarter inch because all the other tools I tried were not hitting up against metal. It felt rubber or something and I could tell it couldn't get past a certain point because of it's thickness. 

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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Curtislv426 said:


> Thanks you. I will try to find a long metal rod that is skinnier than a quarter inch because all the other tools I tried were not hitting up against metal. It felt rubber or something and I could tell it couldn't get past a certain point because of it's thickness.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


Get a big hammer, don't beat it, but with the additional weight of the hammer, tap it pretty good. If that doesn't do it then whack it pretty good. As mentioned some penetrating lube might help, some guys use ATF. You might consider hitting the spur with a torch also, just be careful of the seal in the headstock, you don't want to ruin it.

Shouldn't be anything in there, not sure what you are hitting unless someone stuffed something in there.

The knock out rod does appear to be pretty small diameter.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

FrankC said:


> You could try spraying some penetrating fluid through the hole in the back of the spindle, after a minute or so "gently tap" down on the knurled nut as you slowly rotate the spindle with a brass hammer or drift. This sets up a reaction allowing the penetrating fluid to do its job.
> 
> You will likely still need a steel rod to knock the arbor out of the spindle, it is tapered so once it moves even a fraction it will release.


Thanks Frank for the great suggestion. I will try that when I get home late tonight if I can locate a skinny enough rod

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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

The Knurled nut is advertised as a self ejecting feature for the arbor, a #2 morse taper is 0.57 inches in diameter at the small end so a 3/8" rod should easily pass through to knock it out, something must the stuffed in there.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

shoot summ has it- read the directions and the parts list. Yep. MT!


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## jimmy77545 (Sep 10, 2018)

I think that thing should have a lock and you screw it off... Just like the chuck in a drill.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

jimmy77545 said:


> I think that thing should have a lock and you screw it off... Just like the chuck in a drill.


You would be wrong, look at what he posted and the accessories, they are clearly morse taper, and even the description of the lathe indicates the spindle has a morse taper.

Third paragraph under Features:

"Head and tailstock spindles are machined to accomodate Number 2 Morse Tapers...."


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I know this sounds crazy, but is it possible that the shaft isn’t hollow all the way through and that spindle nut is the only way to eject the spur center?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> I know this sounds crazy, but is it possible that the shaft isn’t hollow all the way through and that spindle nut is the only way to eject the spur center?


He put a wooden dowel in it up to or almost the spur center. If it's not hollow why would they only leave a very small amount solid?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Looks like a knock out rod came with a new lathe:

Part # 51-110 Knock out Rod

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/808/2409.pdf


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Steve Neul said:


> He put a wooden dowel in it up to or almost the spur center. If it's not hollow why would they only leave a very small amount solid?


I forgot to mention that the spur center has a allen screw on it as well. I took it out and the spur was hollow- at least at the particular location. I'm not really sure what purpose that allen screw serves. 

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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Curtislv426 said:


> I forgot to mention that the spur center has a allen screw on it as well. I took it out and the spur was hollow- at least at the particular location. I'm not really sure what purpose that allen screw serves.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


There is a removable center point that goes in the hollow, obviously missing from yours.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Got it! I used a collaboration of every one's ideas so I thank you all. I got a 3/16 in steel rod from work. I used it as a knock out rod but it wasn't budging the spur loose. So I put a plumbing wrench on the back spindle and vice grips on the spindle Chuck and really put the twist on it until it broke loose.









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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Now that it’s out, can you look through the spindle and see what was in the way before?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Next time ....*

Instead of longitudinal force, try radial force. By that I mean knocking it in towards the long axis instead of parallel to it. You will need to support the bearings underneath with a large steel weight so as not to damage them. You are just wanting to set up enough vibration to loosen the parts. :nerd2:


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Curtislv426 said:


> Got it! I used a collaboration of every one's ideas so I thank you all. I got a 3/16 in steel rod from work. I used it as a knock out rod but it wasn't budging the spur loose. So I put a plumbing wrench on the back spindle and vice grips on the spindle Chuck and really put the twist on it until it broke loose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you got it out, hope you didn't scar those parts up too much with the vise grips and pipe wrench.

Make sure you get a rod that will pass through the spindle, that is the correct way to remove the spur.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Curtislv426 said:


> Got it! I used a collaboration of every one's ideas so I thank you all. I got a 3/16 in steel rod from work. I used it as a knock out rod but it wasn't budging the spur loose. So I put a plumbing wrench on the back spindle and vice grips on the spindle Chuck and really put the twist on it until it broke loose.


I am curious about the knurled knob - was it keeping the spur from coming out?

Would you mind sharing additional photos for me? I would like to see:

* The knurled knob, now that it has been removed from the lathe head. Does it have a flange that held the spur in place?

* The back of the spur. Is it hollow? Is it threaded on the inside?


_Public Service Announcement: Some Morris 2 (MT2) Tapers are Hollow and Threaded:
_
When I bought my lathe, I wanted a Jacobs chuck for drill bits, so I could drill pen blanks on my lathe. (When I drill the pen blanks, the head side has a Nova G3 chuck with pen jaws to hold the rotating pen blank, the tail side has the Jacobs chuck with a stationary drill bit.)

One of my turning expert friends advised me that some of the MT2 tapers that hold Jacobs chucks are hollow and many of the hollow ones are threaded on the inside. The idea is that you can put the MT2 taper in the tailstock, and use a long threaded rod with a washer and a couple nuts to anchor it in place from the back. My friend warned me that if I purchased one of those hollow, inside threaded tapers, I might need a longer knockout bar, one that could reach to the far end of the threaded hollow in the MT2 taper. He was right. I needed a longer knockout bar. I tried a wood dowel and found it unsatisfactory. My friend had an extra long knockout bar to give me. Otherwise, I would have found some stainless steel rod and glued it inside a nice turned knob to make my own longer knockout bar.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Nothing was in the spindle other than the spur center. My rod couldn't go through the center of the spur center though because there was too much rust and grime built up surrounding the center cavity of the spur


Quickstep said:


> Now that it’s out, can you look through the spindle and see what was in the way before?


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

The spur center has threads in it and it had some rust and grime build up which was preventing my knockout rod from entering it. I was even using a 3/16 diameter. I cleaned the hollow of the spur and the rod was only able to go in a couple inches. See the rust on the rod.









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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Tool Agnostic said:


> I am curious about the knurled knob - was it keeping the spur from coming out?
> 
> Would you mind sharing additional photos for me? I would like to see:
> 
> ...


The knurled knob has a flange on it that helps pry the spur out. It doesn't really help keep the spur in place. The spur is threaded on thr inside and I could only insert the knockout rod a couple inches









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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Got a new problem now guys LOL. I'm trying to attach this other accessory which allows me to mount on my three jaw Chuck. It's only screwing onto the spindle about a third of the way if that before it catches on something. I have another accessory that is doing the same thing. It's kind of odd though because that knurled knob screws on just fine without any catches. I've included a high-resolution image of the spindle threads. There's a real tiny chip or hairline crack on about the third thread. I'm wondering if it's catching on that.















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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

Might be worth chasing the thread with a die. Is it the typical 1"- 8 ?


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Just FYI, the knockout bar doesn't need to enter the spur center, it just needs to hit the end of it. Ideally, the diameter of the knockout bar should be as large as possible while still passing through the spindle. 

As far as you're threading problem, my guess is that it's a combination of crud, rust or dings in/on both pieces. If you do some clean up on both, I'd bet it would fit. I can't necessarily advocate that you spend a bundle on a chuck, but it might be easier...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Exactly!*

The removal rod should be at least 1/2" OD. Your flimsy 3/16" rod will spring and bend rather than giving a direct blow to the end of the spur. When they're stuck like that you need a big rod and a big hammer. 

I've never seen a Morse taper with threads anyplace on it, but I'm more of a metal lathe guy than wood lathe guy. The threaded collar is curious as well. 

As far as your partial thread issue, use a small triangular file in the threads to clean them out. You can do this under power in forward or reverse, just do not use a file without a handle on moving parts. The tang will pierce you like a needle if the file jams. A few RPMs should clear out any boogers in the threads.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> The removal rod should be at least 1/2" OD. Your flimsy 3/16" rod will spring and bend rather than giving a direct blow to the end of the spur. When they're stuck like that you need a big rod and a big hammer.
> 
> I've never seen a Morse taper with threads anyplace on it, but I'm more of a metal lathe guy than wood lathe guy. The threaded collar is curious as well.
> 
> As far as your partial thread issue, use a small triangular file in the threads to clean them out. You can do this under power in forward or reverse, just do not use a file without a handle on moving parts. The tang will pierce you like a needle if the file jams. A few RPMs should clear out any boogers in the threads.


My cheapo import Mill/drill/lathe uses threaded MT attachments in the mill spindle with a threaded draw bar(MT12 or 3/8") of sorts.

Example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MT3-ER32-M...201365&hash=item260178f11f:g:vWkAAOSw6j9biocB


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yah, my Grizzly and South Bends do also ...but*



shoot summ said:


> My cheapo import Mill/drill/lathe uses threaded MT attachments in the mill spindle with a threaded draw bar(MT12 or 3/8") of sorts.
> 
> Example:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MT3-ER32-M...201365&hash=item260178f11f:g:vWkAAOSw6j9biocB


A mill is meant to be used with collects, as is a metal lathe with the adapter, so the application is way different. A Morse taper spur is meant to drive smaller wood spindles and square stock, not hold cutters (mill) or small diameter stock (lathe). I have the threaded collects in both sizes and the corresponding draw bars.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

shoot summ said:


> My cheapo import Mill/drill/lathe uses threaded MT attachments in the mill spindle with a threaded draw bar(MT12 or 3/8") of sorts.
> 
> Example:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MT3-ER32-M...201365&hash=item260178f11f:g:vWkAAOSw6j9biocB





woodnthings said:


> I've never seen a Morse taper with threads anyplace on it,
> 
> As far as your partial thread issue, use a small triangular file in the threads to clean them out. You can do this under power in forward or reverse, just do not use a file without a handle on moving parts. The tang will pierce you like a needle if the file jams. A few RPMs should clear out any boogers in the threads.





woodnthings said:


> A mill is meant to be used with collects, as is a metal lathe with the adapter, so the application is way different. A Morse taper spur is meant to drive smaller wood spindles and square stock, not hold cutters (mill) or small diameter stock (lathe). I have the threaded collects in both sizes and the corresponding draw bars.


Sorry, I assumed you had seen it, just responding to the comment you made above...

The knurled/threaded nut is nothing more than a thread protector IMO, looks just like the protectors that I use to cover the threads on pistol/rifle barrels when the "threaded muzzle attachment" is not in place.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Curtislv426 said:


> Got a new problem now guys LOL. I'm trying to attach this other accessory which allows me to mount on my three jaw Chuck. It's only screwing onto the spindle about a third of the way if that before it catches on something. I have another accessory that is doing the same thing. It's kind of odd though because that knurled knob screws on just fine without any catches.


Check the threads on the accessories that they are not 1" -10 TPI, specs make spindle 1" - 12 TPI. according to this page:
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=1873


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

FrankC said:


> Check the threads on the accessories that they are not 1" -10 TPI, specs make spindle 1" - 12 TPI. according to this page:
> http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=1873


That's excellent advise Frank. You've been very helpful. I just reached out to my brother. He is a tool maker. He's gonna bring home a file from work that is the same pitch as the threads. I don't wanna chance ruining the threads if I try to file it myself. I'll see if he can determine if we have a mix match going on too with the accessories 

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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

It could be the camera angle, but in this picture the threads look like they’re different pitches. 

When you thread it on, does it thread on smoothly and then just stop dead, or does it get progressively tighter to the point where it won’t go further. 

If it’s getting tighter I’d suspect mismatched pitches. If it’s threading smoothly then suddenly stopping dead, I’d suspect a flaw in the threads. 

Keep us posted!


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## JohnTC (Mar 1, 2018)

Lots of replies so someone has probably already said this, but the textured nut on the shaft behind the center might be able to be screwed out to remove the center. That is how my center is removed.


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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Quickstep said:


> It could be the camera angle, but in this picture the threads look like they’re different pitches.
> 
> When you thread it on, does it thread on smoothly and then just stop dead, or does it get progressively tighter to the point where it won’t go further.
> 
> ...


Sorry- just noticed this post. Here's another angle of the part in question. I took a rule to the spindle threads and measured. The spec is 1" diameter and 14 TPI. Only a 1/2 inch or so of the spindle is exposed but I measured 7 threads in a half inch so it should be 14 TPI. The accessories pretty much just come to a dead stop. 

My brother is a tool maker. He stopped by today while I was at work to grab the triangular accessories and the knurled knob and he's going to run his specs on them at work to see if they are the same pitch. And he's going to chase the triangular pieces and clean them up. I need those pieces so that I can mount it to the 3 jaw chuck. 












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## Curtislv426 (Oct 30, 2017)

Good news. My brother chased the tool accessories with a die. The spindle and parts are a 12 TPI pitch. The original threads for the accessories were just too worn out. He even made me a new part to secure the 3 jaw chuck in as well. I was turning and burning last night.









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## Shop_Rat (Dec 22, 2015)

I have that exact lathe. Sorry no pictures, but I'm at work.

As has been noted, both the headstock and tailstock are bored with #2 Morse tapers. You should not be hitting anything in the spindle bore except the back of the center. If you are, someone has shoved something in the bore.

The spindle nut is little more than a thread protector. The threads are actually there to accept a faceplate. They should be 1"- 8 thread (I think). The bed side thread is right hand thread and the backside thread is a left hand thread. It too is for a faceplate for large bowl turning. There is/was a shorter toolpost on a long stem made for turning large bowls on the back side of the machine. I am fortunate to have one, but have yet to turn a bowl that big.

By the way, the large flat behind the threads is the register for the faceplate so it will spin true. It (they) should be kept clean and ding free. Your adapter should spin on clear to the register flat to be correct. If not registered it probably will wobble.

Find a rod or threaded rod that will comfortably fit in the spindle (3/8"- 1/2"). Push it as far as it will go and whack hell out of it once. I can see the rust in the photos. It'll come with probably one hit, but you can't be too gentle. Trust me, you won't hurt the bearings. 

Once you have the center out, clean up the bore and taper with Scotchbrite pads, or some other non material removing method. Don't use sandpaper! The tapers are meant to be a perfectly mated fit. If altered, there is a risk of spinning the taper in the spidle, which could ruin both in short order.

After you've cleaned things up, the next time you need to remove the center to, say, mount the faceplate, it will take only a gentle to moderate tap to have it in your hand... Oh yeah, and be sure to have your hand ready so it doesn't get dinged on the floor! I have a rod that is just a couple of inches longer than the bore. I insert the rod, hold the center in my right hand and tap it out with my left. 

Have fun with the beast. It is a heavy piece from the past, when cast iron was cheaper than plastic. Out of balance wood won't bother this thing much: it'll hang in there until you get it whittled down to round.

Cheers


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