# Wood Dye Problem/Question



## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm trying to move beyond Minwax stain & polyurethane finishing for my latest project, and bought some Lockwood dyes to try out. (water soluble)

I took a couple of scraps of the same wood I'm using for the small table I made, which appears to be some type of oak, and applied some of each color I'm considering to the scraps. In both pieces, as I wiped on the dye, I could see small bubbles coming up out of the grain lines of the wood. Since I had mixed the dye in hot water, I'm assuming the heat caused the air to bubble out of the wood, and the bubbling stopped within 10 seconds or so. However, even after a while, when the liquid dye on the surface had obviously cooled, as the dye dried, grain lines opened up and it appears that the dye hadn't penetrated into the "valleys" of the grain lines. Close examination with an eye loupe confirms this.

Any ideas what could cause this? Is it normal? I should mention that the wood I'm using is from an OLD tabletop, that had some kind of dark finish on it. However, I planed about 1/16" off the surfaces I'm dyeing, so I would think that would eliminate any possibility of the old finish affecting how the dye works. Maybe not? Could something old have penetrated so far into the grain that it interferes with my dye wetting the wood?

I'm thinking of trying 2 things next:

1. Scrub the surface with some type of solvent, in case there's something interfering with the dye soaking in.

2. Heat the wood slightly with a hot air gun before applying the dye, so as it cools, the dye will be pulled into the wood. (???)

Any & all suggestions would be welcome!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Minwax stains are an oil based aniline dye. The Woodlock stain is also a aniline dye. The dye you are using can also be mixed with methanol. Mixing it with alcohol won't raise the grain like it will with using it with water. I think most of your problems will go away if you try this. With this type of stain I prefer to spray it on at low pressure and just let it dry. I also prefer to put a pigmented oil stain over the top of the dye. I think it gives the wood a richer color.


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## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. I've already raised the grain with a wet sponge, & sanded everything smooth. The manufacturer says to mix the dye powder with water, so I'm a little reluctant to try it with alcohol, but maybe I'l give it a shot.

My actual question relates to why the dye is not getting down into the open grain lines. A pigment stain on top would probably fill the open grain, so I may try that. Just seems strange that the dye doesn't "soak in".

Fortunately, I have a lot of scraps to play with before I screw up the actual project...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't use much stain mixed with water so I'm a poor one to help you. I normally use a homemade brew with tinting color and water when I don't want the stain to penetrate so I suspect your problem is related. Even if you raise the grain and then sand it again the water in the stain will raise the grain again. When Star Finishing Products were around they made a alcohol based aniline dye called No Sand Stain. It was because the stain was mixed with alcohol it didn't fuzz the wood with the staining process. 

There may be something to not mixing the stain powders with alcohol but if it dissolves at all it will work. Not familiar with that particular product I thought it was standard aniline dye powders. I went to one site and it said mix with water or alcohol and then I just went to the Lockwood site and apparently there are some colors not soluble in alcohol. This information was at their website:
*W.D. LOCKWOOD & CO., INC.
49 WALKER ST. 1ST FLOOR
NYC, NY, 10013
(212) 966.4046

*

W.D. Lockwood., Inc. has offered superior quality dyes for wood since 1895. Our concentrated mixing colors can be applied to any type of wood. Our cost effective dry powder formula dissolves quickly into hot water, 1 Lb. yields 4 - 8 Gallons of liquid stain. Lockwood wood stain powders are applied by brushing, sponging, or spraying, and can be finished with various types of lacquer, shellac, varnish, or oil based coatings. Available in water, alcohol, or oil soluble powder, our non-hazardous dyes for wood impart a deep, transparent color to your wood. 
*Metal Complex Dyes are Here!* Lockwood is proud to announce our Metal Complex line, consisting of 14 colors with more on the way. Metal Complex colors have the highest lightfastness (resistance to fading) of all dyes, and are recommeded for exterior use, or in areas where strong, direct sunlight is expected. Prices & Colorcharts are now on our site under 'Products.' See the colorchart, under Water Soluble Colors, to view samples on Maple. 

Note - with a few exceptions (noted on colorchart) *Metal Complex Dyes are soluble in both Water & Alcohol*


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Stevedore said:


> I took a couple of scraps of the same wood I'm using for the small table I made, which appears to be some type of oak, and applied some of each color I'm considering to the scraps. In both pieces, as I wiped on the dye, I could see small bubbles coming up out of the grain lines of the wood. Since I had mixed the dye in hot water, I'm assuming the heat caused the air to bubble out of the wood, and the bubbling stopped within 10 seconds or so. However, even after a while, when the liquid dye on the surface had obviously cooled, as the dye dried, grain lines opened up and it appears that the dye hadn't penetrated into the "valleys" of the grain lines. Close examination with an eye loupe confirms this.
> 
> Any ideas what could cause this? Is it normal? I should mention that the wood I'm using is from an OLD tabletop, that had some kind of dark finish on it. However, I planed about 1/16" off the surfaces I'm dyeing, so I would think that would eliminate any possibility of the old finish affecting how the dye works. Maybe not? Could something old have penetrated so far into the grain that it interferes with my dye wetting the wood?


Your problem may be due to previous finish leaving some contamination. Just planing off 1/16" may not have been enough. 










 







.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

I think there could be a couple of things going on.

First water based dyes don't color the pores of oak very well even on fresh wood. Usually with oak you would apply a light oil stain or a paste filler over the dye to color the pores. (Use a wash coat of sealer before using a filler just wipe the oil stain right over the dye if using the stain) 

It also sounds like you could have some finish in the pores and this can make the problem even worse, in this case just use a darker stain or filler. (ALWAYS do samples before testing on your project!)

When finishing oak I usually use an NGR dye stain. (Sherwin Williams S61 or Mohawk Ultra Penetrating dye stain) This is an alcohol or acetone based dye stain and these will stain the pores of oak better IF you wipe them into the grain, If you apply by spray only you will still have a similar problem.

I used Lockwood WB dyes on oak many times. I usually stain with the dye a little redder and lighter than I want the final color and then apply a gilsonite stain over it. (Sherwin Williams S64 stain base S64N44) Gilsonite is an asphaltum base used in making stains, it is oil based so it wipes nicely,is almost as transparent as dye and colors the pores of the oak or open grains wood perfectly.

One more thing to keep in mind when using water based dye stain is on inside corners (like the inside of a cabinet or any applied moldings or anywhere the water can get under the wood and leech out later) If you don't use an air nozzle and blow dry the stain where it stays wet longer it will get darker and look really bad. This is an easy thing to do but you must do it.

Here is a picture that shows the inside corner where it is still wet.


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## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

Thank you, Rick; I have an assortment of leftover stains with varying amounts of pigment in them. I'll try some on my test pieces & see if it colors the grain pores that I'm concerned about. And I'll have my air blowgun ready when I dye the actual piece!

And thanks Cabinetman; when I think about it, it does seem that some kinds of finish treatments in this wood's history could have penetrated far enough through the porous areas to be causing a problem, even after my planing.


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