# 1.75 HP or 3.0 HP



## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

I am about to order a new saw, my question is do you feel that the 3 hp would be that much better than the 1.75 hp to warrant the extra expense of $1000.00 (400.00 saw and 600.00 to get 220 installed in my shop) ? I just do this as a hobby want to make some furniture for around the house, not for production that I would be using it every day and night. And how thick of hardwood do you feel can be cut without it boging down. Thx RJ


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## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

I always opt for 220. It will be worth it in the long run. Besides you will need 220 in the shop.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Ditto - can't do without 220 v in the shop. The $600 to get it out to your shop is a big hit but you only have to do it once. Plus, this will open up your opportunities for better but less expensive used equipment that is 220 v only.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

I started with a 1.5 hp saw years ago and it wasn't long before I upgraded to a 3hp...I think you should get 220 in the shop and be done with it..What kind of saw are you looking at ?


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## Burb (Nov 30, 2012)

While I'm about 1-2 years away myself, I will have this same dilemma. 



difalkner said:


> Ditto - can't do without 220 v in the shop. The $600 to get it out to your shop is a big hit but you only have to do it once.


And this is part of my thought. I know I will want a bigger jointer and bandsaw that will likely be 200, as well as possibly a planer. After speaking with a local license electrician, he suggested I upgrade my current 100 amp service panel to the larger panel, though it'll still only be 100 amp. He said he'd do it all for about $600 including the the panel & extra breakers.

Mark


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

There is a notable difference, but it’s not essential to have 3hp. It’s a “nice to have”. $1k premium for a hobbyist to jump to 3hp seems pretty steep to me too. I could do whatever I needed with my 1.75hp hybrid…it’s just more sensitive to setup, blade selection, material density, etc. It did run better on 220v, but if your 120v circuit is adequate and dedicated to just the saw, and is well aligned and fitted with a good sharp 3/32” blade that’s suitable for the task, you should have no trouble. Keeping the blade clean, and the wood straight and flat helps too.

With that said, 220v is incredibly nice to have for larger DC or other bigger motors that you could want in the future. I ran my own line from a spare dryer line for ~$35.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You need 220 anyway, but $600 sounds pretty steep.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Thx for all your help, as of now I have all my recetables on their own circuit 20 amp, so this would be a plus for the 1.75 hp saw. I am purchasing a Sawstop pcs, I guess I just have to make up my mind weather to spend 600 for the 220 line, the extra 400 doesn't bother me, this will be my final table saw purchase at my age, thx agin, RJ


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Ill be the odd man out and say go with the 1.75. For a hobbiest shop, thatll be more than enough horsepower to deal with the stuff youre likely to see in a home shop. Im not saying that more horsepower is bad thing, or that installing 220 would be a waste, just that for an average joe weekend woodworker theres no massive need for the extra horsepower, itd just be nice to have. Ditto with the 220 power, its another thing thats really handy to have, but for a hobbiest shop its not strictly necessary

Ive got a Delta 36-735 contractor saw with a 1.5hp motor on it, and i have no trouble ripping 4/4 hardwoods with a 50t combo blade. I have cut thicker before with no real issues, just had to slow the feed rate a bit, but lets be honest, 90% of what gets worked in a ome shop is 3/4 of an inch in thickness, hardwood speaking. 

Save the grand and spend it on wood instead!


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Like you I am just a hobbyist. I make furniture pieces and whatever else need doing.

I have 220 available if I want to use it. My tools are just standard Craftsman 120 volt. (table saw, jointer, planner and assorted hand held.)

I have never in over 30 years of woodworking needed or even wanted a 220 volt tool. 

Save your money for other needed/wanted tools. Or have a few nice dinners somewhere.

George


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

The news that it’s a PCS does sways my view a bit because it’s a premium product. If you want the PCS to be your last saw, and the extra cost doesn’t cause you hardship, I can’t imagine that you’d ever regret getting the 3hp motor. There’s no question that 1.75hp will “suffice”, but is that really the what you hope to get from a saw the caliber of a PCS? There’s a lot to be said about absolutely loving using a new saw, and the bigger motor would undoubtedly contribute a lot to that. Will you kick yourself later if you don’t bite the bullet now? It’ll be more expensive to do in the future and will be a lot harder to justify after the fact too.

Hopefully you’ve at least opted for the T-Glide fence.

I’m not trying to complicate your decision, but am just wondering how you’ll feel about things later on….it really boils down to your circumstances, objectives, preferences, personality traits and tendencies, etc. There are obviously less expensive saws, and even less expensive Saw Stop options. Everyone's approaches are different, but due to our circumstances, we don’t splurge very often and usually make sensible decisions on big expenses….if I could justify splurging more often, I would, but that’s our reality. Every once in a while we’ll treat ourselves to a nice meal out at a fancy restaurant….at that moment my goal is to enjoy the evening, not be frugal or save money, so those are the times that I order what I really want, as opposed to what will suffice. “Food” for thought…. ;-)


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I think I'm just putting a different spin on what's already been said, but I'm wondering what needs to be done to add what I'm assuming is a single 220 outlet that comes to $600. I used a 2hp Craftsman saw for years and years without any problem. It sawed anything 3/4" or so without too much complaint, although it would struggle with hard maple. One day I was feeling wild and bought a 3hp Unisaw. Man, what a difference. More power = better cuts and fewer burn marks. Since then, I've also gotten a jointer and planer, both of which run on 220. The money I spent has been long forgotten, but the satisfaction of having high quality adequately powered tools lives on.


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## Oakwerks (Mar 24, 2013)

epicfail48 said:


> Ill be the odd man out and say go with the 1.75. For a hobbiest shop, thatll be more than enough horsepower to deal with the stuff youre likely to see in a home shop. Im not saying that more horsepower is bad thing, or that installing 220 would be a waste, just that for an average joe weekend woodworker theres no massive need for the extra horsepower, itd just be nice to have. Ditto with the 220 power, its another thing thats really handy to have, but for a hobbiest shop its not strictly necessary
> 
> Ive got a Delta 36-735 contractor saw with a 1.5hp motor on it, and i have no trouble ripping 4/4 hardwoods with a 50t combo blade. I have cut thicker before with no real issues, just had to slow the feed rate a bit, but lets be honest, 90% of what gets worked in a ome shop is 3/4 of an inch in thickness, hardwood speaking.
> 
> Save the grand and spend it on wood instead!


I agree.... I have 220 in my shop, but opted for a 1.75 hp saw last year... It sits I the center of my shop where the old Craftsman 113 was... I have a dedicated, 20 amp, 120 volt drop from the ceiling....
That old 1 hp saw did everything I ever asked it to do, so I saw no need for 3 hp.....


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

The difference between how your tools act on 110 and 220 is very, very noticeable. It is definitely the way to go. The same goes for the 3 HP motor.
You should not be thinking "i'm not a commercial user so I don't really need 220". You should be thinking more about the performance of your tools in your hobby. It's hard to put a price tag on a hobby. Here is a crazy analogy: When I was just a hobbyist, I spent freely on tools because at the time, that is what I wanted and I could afford it. When I became a professional, my attitude changed. I was then thinking of return on investment for my tools and gave it more serious thought about tool purchases/investments. One might think it should have been the other way around. 
Anyway, You should also get a second estimate on the electrical cost of upgrading to 220 to see if the first is in line. The one thing I will say about the service is that 100 Amps should be more than sufficient for a one or two man hobby shop. You can normally only run one tool at a time. Since the $600 would include a new panel, which i cant understand how he can just throw that in instead of reducing the cost, I would go for it. 
Anyway, back to the 110 vs 220. In the future, you might want things like a good joiner or planer and they would also require 220V.
Lighting is another aspect that can be a 220V item for commercial lighting. I dont know thw size of your shop or the proximity from your house, so I am just guessing at things.
Bottom line: there should be no limit, other than affordability, on your hobby purchases. The better the equipment, the easier and more convenient, the more enjoyable and likely to use. 

The defense rests.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

I try not to do this but I relay think you would kick yourself down the road if you don't get the 3hp saw and ofcorce 220...Tony I feel nailed it..


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*matt*

Great minds think alike.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*The Better the Tool*

The better the tool, the better it performs, the better it performs, the *safer* it is. Not to mention user enjoyment and satisfaction.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Tony B said:


> The difference between how your tools act on 110 and 220 is very, very noticeable. It is definitely the way to go. The same goes for the 3 HP motor.


If performance on 240 is "very, very noticeable, up to 3 HP, then there is something wrong with the 120 setup. It is true that 120 vs 240 has some cost considerations, but performance considerations are not among them.

To the OP: A good description of your current electrical setup would go a long way to advising about a 240 install.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

I ran a 1.5HP 110V saw for years, no issues. I still run my current table saw on 110V no issues.

For general hobbyist you will be fine.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Alchymist said:


> If performance on 240 is "very, very noticeable, up to 3 HP, then there is something wrong with the 120 setup. It is true that 120 vs 240 has some cost considerations, but performance considerations are not among them.
> 
> To the OP: A good description of your current electrical setup would go a long way to advising about a 240 install.


I argued this point in another thread a while back, people will swear everything just runs better on 240V, when in fact for smaller motors there is absolutely no difference...


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

shoot summ said:


> I argued this point in another thread a while back, people will swear everything just runs better on 240V, when in fact for smaller motors there is absolutely no difference...


Most likely because most of them have no electrical background? Or they were running a 120 setup on 150 feet of #14 wire, and switched to #12 or #10 and 240. 0


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Running on 110 or 220 seems to more about opinion that anything else, there will alway those that will argue one way or the other.
I am in the 220 camp, I like running tools on 220 when possible, to me there seems to be fewer downsides, most shops will require it somewhere along the line for larger motors so I figure if it is there use it.

Many of the choices we make fall into either need or want. There is always a minimum requirement that is a need no argument there, beyond that it becomes a want and that is up to the individual.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Alchymist said:


> If performance on 240 is "very, very noticeable, up to 3 HP, then there is something wrong with the 120 setup. It is true that 120 vs 240 has some cost considerations, but performance considerations are not among them..........


There is nothing wrong with 120V set-up, just that 220 is much better.
Way back when Thomas Edison was at war with Nikola Tesla over Power Plants, Edison fought AC because it was much more dangerous than DC. Tesla fought for AC because it was more efficient. Well, Tesla obviously won because all of our power plants are AC and not battery DC. The next problem was "How Much" AC. Somewhere along the way it was decided that 110V AC was far safer than 220V AC. How many kids have stuck a toy or something into an outlet and survived with nothing more than a spark and a good scare. 220V AC would have more than likely been deadly. Anyway, thats how we settled on 110V. Small commercial businesses use 220v for its efficiency and the same goes for home washer dryers and electric stoves. 
When I had my first hobby woodworking shop in my house, I made up extension cords to run my Table saw on the 220 V clothes dryer socket. Worked fine for me. It also ran my 5HP planer off that outlet.

There are some cost considerations with 220V AC , but for the good. They are more efficient which means less electricity being used.
Some motors, specifically on my Delta TableSaw, came with a motor for 110 or 220, depending on how the motor was wired. The end user ( me or you) can change the motor wires in under 2 minutes. The drawing was right on the motor housing.* THAT *is how I know there is a very, very big difference in performance. The same saw, the same motor, just a change in wiring, and what a difference. No more overheating the saw motor and popping the internal over-heat switch once I started using 220V.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Alchymist said:


> Most likely because most of them have no electrical background? Or they were running a 120 setup on 150 feet of #14 wire, and switched to #12 or #10 and 240. 0


Actually, you have it reversed. That is of course, assuming the numbers are correct. The higher the voltage, the thinner the wire required. That is because a motor is going to draw 'x' amount of wattage. Power formula is Power (wattage) = Volts X Amps. On a fixed power consumption, the higher the voltage, the less the current will be to come up with the same power consumption. 
If you feel like doing the math:
Power Required = Volts X Amps


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*for me it's more simple*

Any motor 3 HP or larger absolutely requires 220V. Motors in the 1 HP to 1 1/2 HP range can run on either, but they perform much better in 220V. A 1 3/4 HP or 2 HP motor is an oddball, but I run mine on 220V. I run my 1 HP small shaper on 220V also. All my 3 HP (?) routers run on 120V, because that's all they can run on from the factory. So, howzat? Those motors are called universal type, and have brushes. They are "overrated" to some extent based on the HP rating process. A 3HP induction motor is the size of a basketball, where the 3 HP router motors are the size of a quart milk carton. Guess which one is more powerful...:surprise2:

So which voltage you have/need decides which motors you can power with it. It's that simple to me.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Tony B said:


> There is nothing wrong with 120V set-up, just that 220 is much better.
> Way back when Thomas Edison was at war with Nikola Tesla over Power Plants, Edison fought AC because it was much more dangerous than DC. Tesla fought for AC because it was more efficient. Well, Tesla obviously won because all of our power plants are AC and not battery DC. The next problem was "How Much" AC. Somewhere along the way it was decided that 110V AC was far safer than 220V AC. How many kids have stuck a toy or something into an outlet and survived with nothing more than a spark and a good scare. 220V AC would have more than likely been deadly. Anyway, thats how we settled on 110V. Small commercial businesses use 220v for its efficiency and the same goes for home washer dryers and electric stoves.
> When I had my first hobby woodworking shop in my house, I made up extension cords to run my Table saw on the 220 V clothes dryer socket. Worked fine for me. It also ran my 5HP planer off that outlet.
> 
> ...


Please explain this.

I have a 1/3HP motor, show me the math that proves it's more efficient on 240V.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Tony B said:


> There is nothing wrong with 120V set-up, just that 220 is much better.*
> Guess it depends on your definition of "Better".*
> 
> Way back when Thomas Edison was at war with Nikola Tesla over Power Plants, Edison fought AC because it was much more dangerous than DC. Tesla fought for AC because it was more efficient.
> ...





Tony B said:


> Actually, you have it reversed. That is of course, assuming the numbers are correct. The higher the voltage, the thinner the wire required. That is because a motor is going to draw 'x' amount of wattage. Power formula is Power (wattage) = Volts X Amps. On a fixed power consumption, the higher the voltage, the less the current will be to come up with the same power consumption.
> If you feel like doing the math:
> Power Required = Volts X Amps


Actually I don't have it reversed - you missed the point - a smaller number wire gauge will drop less voltage - so a #12 for example on 240 volts will have less loss than a # 14 on 120 for the same load.

And your power formula is incomplete - W= E X I X PF.

Where the cost considerations come in is when the load (for example a motor greater than 3 HP) on 120 volts requires an extravagantly large wire. Such a circuit becomes cost prohibitive.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

shoot summ said:


> Please explain this.
> 
> I have a 1/3HP motor, show me the math that proves it's more efficient on 240V.


Without all the basic data combined with me not having that kind fo ambition and the fact that your motor is probably not set up for 220V, you can forget about an answer from me on that. 
What I would suggest is that you find a motor that is set to run on either 110 or 220 volts and then put it to task on both voltages. Feel the wires while running the machine. When on 110V the wires will feel warmer than on 220V. The heat is lost electricity. Lost electricity means you are drawing a given amount of electricity. Some of it is producing work and some of it lost in heat. The less heat, the more work.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Tony B said:


> Without all the basic data combined with me not having that kind fo ambition and the fact that your motor is probably not set up for 220V, you can forget about an answer from me on that.
> What I would suggest is that you find a motor that is set to run on either 110 or 220 volts and then put it to task on both voltages. Feel the wires while running the machine. When on 110V the wires will feel warmer than on 220V. The heat is lost electricity. Lost electricity means you are drawing a given amount of electricity. Some of it is producing work and some of it lost in heat. The less heat, the more work.


You just proved a point - if the wire is getting warm, it's undersized for the load.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Alchymist said:


> Actually I don't have it reversed - you missed the point - a smaller number wire gauge will drop less voltage - so a #12 for example on 240 volts will have less loss than a # 14 on 120 for the same load.
> 
> And your power formula is incomplete - W= E X I X PF.
> 
> Where the cost considerations come in is when the load (for example a motor greater than 3 HP) on 120 volts requires an extravagantly large wire. Such a circuit becomes cost prohibitive.


I have misread your post. now you are comparing apples to oranges. 
I agree that the smaller no. on the wire gage is a fatter wire and will have less resistance. less resistance means more power and less heat loss. So in your example above, " so a #12 for example on 240 volts will have less loss than a # 14 on 120 for the same load." that is correct and so it is more efficient with the 220V. However, the more fair example would be to use the same wire gage on both the 220V and 110V. Then and only then, can you make a fair comparison. But this is not a major cost advantage in normal conditions. I didnt say it was major. But it is a comparison to answer one of the questions. In a home shop, the cost comparison is so negligable as to not even be a consideration. Performance is really the consideration and not the cost of operating the individual tools in a home shop.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Alchymist said:


> You just proved a point - if the wire is getting warm, it's undersized for the load.


The only control I have with the load is how fast I push a board through. The wire size is a fixed size in the wall. It would be faster and less expensive the swap to 220V where the same wire would not be undersized for the load. And again, you are the one missing the point and I will no longer argue the issue.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

So there are things that people think, and there are facts.

A 1.5HP motor that is capable of running on "110V" or "220V"(technically incorrect terms) that is on a properly sized circuit and wiring for each 120V or 240V will perform/act/behave/EVERYTHING just the same.

The difference comes into play as you run larger motors, then 240V is a better source for the load only because the infrastructure involved. You could drive a 5HP motor with 120V, but it would take a huge circuit, and wiring to support it.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

Man..LOL...Please try not to get upset guys...If your happy with 110 and don't understand something it doesn't mean its not all good, But.. .I also had a 1.5hp 110 table saw at one time and changed the wires to have it run on 220 and it had much more power and it did run cooler..I cant believe anyone would ague with the fact that 220 isn't more efficient...Please look into it ..Whats funny is if the 110 guys had upgraded to 220 tools you would no more about what your saying...


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Tony B said:


> The only control I have with the load is how fast I push a board through. The wire size is a fixed size in the wall. It would be faster and less expensive the swap to 220V where the same wire would not be undersized for the load. And again, you are the one missing the point and I will no longer argue the issue.


You are now backpeddling - just because you have no control over the wire size "in the wall", doesn't make 240 more efficient. The 120 circuit was not adequate.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

mat 60 said:


> Man..LOL...Please try not to get upset guys...If your happy with 110 and don't understand something it doesn't mean its not all good, But.. .I also had a 1.5hp 110 table saw at one time and changed the wires to have it run on 220 and it had much more power and it did run cooler..I cant believe anyone would ague with the fact that 220 isn't more efficient...Please look into it ..Whats funny is if the 110 guys had upgraded to 220 tools you would no more about what your saying...


1st off, as SHOOT SUMM stated, it's 120 & 240, been that way for years. As to knowing what I'm saying, I have machines on both voltages in my shop. Most people who swear that when they switched to 240 their machine ran cooler/better, and I'm sure it did, because the 120 circuit it was on was inadequate in one or more respects - too small wire, too long a run for wire size, low supply voltage, etc. In properly laid out circuits, there is no difference. And I'm not upset, just trying to put things in perspective.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

mat 60 said:


> Man..LOL...Please try not to get upset guys...If your happy with 110 and don't understand something it doesn't mean its not all good, But.. .I also had a 1.5hp 110 table saw at one time and changed the wires to have it run on 220 and it had much more power and it did run cooler..I cant believe anyone would ague with the fact that 220 isn't more efficient...Please look into it ..Whats funny is if the 110 guys had upgraded to 220 tools you would no more about what your saying...


Not upset at all, just know that there is no difference, and don't support folks giving bad info. A 1.5HP motor at 110V should draw about 15.2 amps, and on 220V draws 7.6 amps, so where does the additional power come from?

Where the improvement comes from is that folks tend to undersize 110v circuits and wiring, and properly size 220V circuits and wiring.

Using the well established equation for power;

P(watts) = I(amps) x V(volts)

110v*15.6a=1672w

220v*7.6a=1672w

So all of the folks that say it runs better, please show me how as the power output is exactly the same provided the circuit and wiring is adequately sized.


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

shoot summ said:


> I argued this point in another thread a while back, people will swear everything just runs better on 240V, when in fact for smaller motors there is absolutely no difference...


To agree with the last few posts, the windings of the motor see 120 volts, either way. You change the wiring in the J-box to make that happen. The difference is in voltage drop, if the wires are a bit small you won't get the full 120 into the saw, but the way 240 works the voltage drop will be very, much less.
However, here is another view. You say the each receptacle is on it's own circuit. Chances are very high that some 120v outlets are 'A' phase and some on 'B' phase. And there is a chance that they were run as 3-wire circuits. If so, you have 240 now. 

Hang on, did you say each receptacle is on it's own circuit? If that is true, open the panel, take a white wire from one of those dedicated outlets, color it red, and put it into the breaker next to it. You then have 240.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

OK..I respect everyones opinion and this not being about safety its fine..I find as I get older there are times that a man is better off not making enemy's over who is right or wrong...Works with the wife also .So ..Lets just say you guys are right and go with that..All cool .Does it matter that much to you.


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

A more detailed explaination for those who are still interested in this-
Volts, voltage, are terms indicating the amount of electrical pressure. How hard the electrons are pushing.
Amps, amperage, how many electrons are moving. If this was water, think gallons. An amp is a LOT of electrons.
Watts, wattage. A measure of how much work is being done. One way to think about it is that 1 watt = 3.41 BTU's of heat.

So, if you double the pressure it takes 1/2 the quantity of electrons to get the same amount of work done. And if double the pressure on the windings of that motor it will have a very short life.

I welcome the corrections that are sure to come.

As someone who has a 3hp Hammer C3 and understands this pretty well, I ran #10 wire. Overkill but those are expensive Danish motors. My 1.5hp mill I've left on 120, no reason to change it.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Good lord, I've never seen so much disagreement about Ohms law, that is amperage multiplied by voltage equals wattage. Let's break it down, shall we? 

Now, horsepower is a measure of power output, which is great because that means you can convert horsepower to watts. Saying a motor is rated to reliever 1hp is the same as saying that it delivers roughly 750 watts of power, which means that it has to take in at least that much power. In real life though, a 1hp motor will use roughly 1200 watts of electricity. 

So, plugging that into ohms law we have:
1200=Amps times volts. On a 120 circuit, the equation looks like this:
1200=10 x 120

And on a 240 circuit it looks like this:
1200=5 x 240

You'll notice that despite the amperage and voltage changing, the total power remains the same. Moving up in voltage will reduce the amperage load, which will allow the use of thinner conductors as well as reducing the heat load, but it is not phspysically possible to put the same motor on a higher voltage and get more power out of it. It doesn't work that way. 

The reason higher power motors require higher voltage circuits is the amp load. A 5hp motor on a 120 circuit is perfectly possible, but would require a 50 amp circuit and 4 gauge wiring, which is somewhat impractical. Moving that same motor onto a 240 circuit, while not increasing the overall power output, cuts the amp load in half, allowing the use of thinner conductors.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Brian(J) said:


> A more detailed explaination for those who are still interested in this-
> Volts, voltage, are terms indicating the amount of electrical pressure. How hard the electrons are pushing.
> Amps, amperage, how many electrons are moving. If this was water, think gallons. An amp is a LOT of electrons.
> Watts, wattage. A measure of how much work is being done. One way to think about it is that 1 watt = 3.41 BTU's of heat.
> ...


The short version - there are two windings in a motor - each winding is designed for 120 volts, and that winding (wire size) is manufactured to carry the current required for the given horsepower with a minimum of heat loss. When you wire it for 120 volts, the two windings are connected in parallel. When you connect it for 240 the windings are put in series. Either way each winding has 120 volts across it, and the same amount of current through it.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

120v circuits draw their total amperage from one hot leg. It's not at all uncommon to have a 120v circuit that's really not to par due to having long runs of wire, multiple junctions, small gauge wire, bad quality wire, bad connections, or that's simply overtaxed from multiple appliances running of it, along with several other potential ills....many of us face this issues in our shops without even knowing it. Plugging a typical 1.5hp 15 amp contractor saw to that circuit can result in the saw not really running at it's full potential, creating excess heat due to the voltage loss, slower startups, slower recovery from lugging, excess heat, shorter motor life, etc. (15 amp nominal amp draw, 50+ amps momentary peak amperage all coming through that single hot leg). That performance would seem normal if it's all we've ever been exposed to. Switching that same saw to a 240v (aka 220v) circuit will usually cure the ills caused by the sub-par 120v circuit....you'd get faster startups, faster recovery from lugging, etc., giving the impression that the saw is now more powerful. What's really happening is that the saw is finally running to it's full potential. Installing a _proper_ 120v circuit would likely cure the same ills, but it usually makes more sense to install 220v if you're going to install a new circuit. 220v circuits split their amperage draw across two hot leads....Half the amperage running across two hot leads is far less likely to ever reach the point where the supply circuit will experience notable voltage loss issues from the demands of that 1.5hp 15 amp motor. It also allows you to run larger motors that have a higher amp draw. 

To me, it's really not an issue of which way the windings of a given motor are wired (parallel or series), but how well a given circuit can supply those windings.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Probably shouldn't respond because I can't really advise which size motor,where the cost/s may or may not be justified,which is dependent on the pce of equipments usage?Translated.....can you make more money with the bigger motor?

We have at present(besides what comes in for repairs and/or modifications)4 TS's.A 1 HP 9"...a 2HP,120 10"(dedicated dado head machine)....2HP,240 10" med. stroke slider....5HP 14/16.

I could easily get by with just the slider....with the "backup" of a cpl nice BS's.But I'd probably bump the power up to a 3HP if that was the case.This would be a one man pro-shop.


Edit;Oops need to add that the dado machine is 120 because this circuit also gets used for our baby DC,that and general laziness.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Not that it matters much at this point in the discussion but I have an older Craftsman 2 HP twin cylinder compressor, about 40 years old. When it was given to me 30+ years ago the motor was bad but I had a 1.5 HP dual voltage motor and put that on it. With the pulleys that came with it I could run the compressor on 110 v (or 115 or 120 or 125... whatever). But it took too long to reach the high pressure switch setting and shut off so I changed the motor pulley for a slightly larger one to run the pump faster. What I found is that I had to let most of the air out of the tank for the motor to start. Sometime later I had the opportunity to add a second 220v outlet in my shop and wired the compressor motor for 220v. It ran as it should without me having to let air out or use air down to all but nothing in the tank. 

Now I'll be the first to acknowledge the motor I put on isn't the strongest in the world but I also know that it doesn't run the compressor as it should on 110v but on 220v it runs just fine and has for the last 30+ years. 

I now have five 20 amp 220v circuits and two 30 amp 220v circuits in my shop and can add a few more if needed. Place me firmly in the 'I want 220v for as much equipment as I can run on 220v' camp. :thumbsup:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no disrespect meant here*

Compressors and their motors are a whole 'nother issue. They have 2 starting capacitors for the increased load under pressure and may have a pressure unloader to relieve pressure under start. I built one years ago from used and new parts, using a 1750 RPM general purpose power tool motor 1 HP with a 2" pulley on the motor and about a 13" pulley on the pump. This allowed for a huge leverage ratio in favor of the motor, but it took forever to reach the "stop" pressure on the switch. 

I am also in the 220 V when at all possible camp. I must have 20 - 220V dedicated circuits between 2 shops and a garage shop, 20 AMPs, 30 AMPS and a couple of 50 AMPs... you can't have too many :smile3:


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I didn't read the whole thread because I've started drinking beer, so I'm not sure that's possible at this point. 

But to the original post, adding 220 will help you with other things. Without it, you're limited to a 6" jointer, a lunchbox planer, a 14" bandsaw, small air compressor, etc. Not that you're in the market for any of those things now but you may be in the future. I'm stuck with 110 where I'm at now, and it's quite limiting.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*so it won't affect your beer drinking?*



Mort said:


> I didn't read the whole thread because I've started drinking beer, so I'm not sure that's possible at this point.
> 
> But to the original post, adding 220 will help you with other things. Without it, you're limited to a 6" jointer, a lunchbox planer, a 14" bandsaw, small air compressor, etc. Not that you're in the market for any of those things now but you may be in the future. I'm stuck with 110 where I'm at now, and it's quite limiting.


Good thing you don't need 220V for the frig.... :wink2:


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

*Recap*



RJweb said:


> I am about to order a new saw, my question is do you feel that the 3 hp would be that much better than the 1.75 hp to warrant the extra expense of $1000.00 (400.00 saw and 600.00 to get 220 installed in my shop) ? I just do this as a hobby want to make some furniture for around the house, not for production that I would be using it every day and night. And how thick of hardwood do you feel can be cut without it boging down. Thx RJ


Well, this has certainly become a popular thread.

I think the main points are,
1. If you can get the 3hp, you should.
and
2. You may be able to get there with your exiting wiring.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> Good thing you don't need 220V for the frig.... :wink2:


Damn skippy.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Mort said:


> ................ I'm stuck with 110 where I'm at now, and it's quite limiting.



Maybe Not

my first tool to go to 220 was my table saw. It had a motor that could be wired for 110 or 220. I made a heavy duty extension cord to fit my clothes dryer outlet (220V) on one end and the other end I changed the plug to match the new 220V extension cord. I was a bachelor at the time and so If I unplugged the clothes dryer and plugged in the tablesaw extension cord there was no one else to consider at the time. 
Sooooooooooooooo, you can do the same.
I also was able to use my 5HP Foley Belsaw Planer on that same cord.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Compressors and their motors are a whole 'nother issue. They have 2 starting capacitors for the increased load under pressure and may have a pressure unloader to relieve pressure under start. I built one years ago from used and new parts, using a 1750 RPM general purpose power tool motor 1 HP with a 2" pulley on the motor and about a 13" pulley on the pump. This allowed for a huge leverage ratio in favor of the motor, but it took forever to reach the "stop" pressure on the switch.
> 
> I am also in the 220 V when at all possible camp. I must have 20 - 220V dedicated circuits between 2 shops and a garage shop, 20 AMPs, 30 AMPS and a couple of 50 AMPs... you can't have too many :smile3:


No disrespect taken. I'm aware of the motor load and starting caps and all that but just wanted to point out that my compressor not starting under load on 110v but starting with load on 220v is a fine line and that line crosses over to working on 220v with no other changes but not on 110v.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow, I just got home and there is plently of info, I feel I got an education in electrical eng. I want to thank all that helped out. It seems that the senses feel I won't go wrong putting in the 220 line and going with the 3 hp sawstop. Thats the way I am thinking now, pay a little now or a lot more later. Tx again, RJ


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Mort said:


> I didn't read the whole thread because I've started drinking beer, so I'm not sure that's possible at this point.




Good to know I'm not the only one.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Guess it is about time for this again:

220 Volt Wiring as Explained by Tom Gauldin

I think its time for me to explain about 220 current and why it is so different from 110 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.

Secondly, it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 220 is really two 110 volt lines coming to your house from different parts of the globe.

The up and down 110 comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down and up version comes from below the equator.

Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction water flows when it goes down the drain. In the top of the earth, it goes clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter clockwise. Since most electricity is made from hydro dams, the clockwise flow gives you an up and down sine wave, while the counterclockwise version gives you a down and up sine wave. Between the two, you have 220 volts, while either individual side only gives you 110 volts.

This is partiularly important to know when buying power tools- which side of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian saw, for instance, it will turn backwards if connected to a US generated 110 volt source. Sure, you can buy backwards blades for it, but that is an unnecessary burden. Other appliances, like toasters cannot be converted from Australian electricity to American electricity, without horrible results. I knew one person who bought an Australian toaster by mistake and it froze the slices of bread she put in it.

If you wire your shop with 220 and accidentally get two US-generated 110 volt lines run in by accident, you can get 220 by using a trick I learned from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own fuse box and then turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert one of the two up and down sine waves to down and up, giving you 220. DO NOT just turn the box sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts and you'll be limited to just using Candian tools with it.

(This was intended as pure humor)


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Guess it is about time for this again:
> 
> 220 Volt Wiring as Explained by Tom Gauldin
> 
> ...


Hilarious!!


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

:smile3::smile3:And with FRANKC's post, I think this discussion has about run it's course! :wink2:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*We had a similiar discussion here*

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/angles-setting-miter-saw-9644/

POST 9:
HELP ! I'm over here hanging off the table at 361 degrees. And I can't figure out whether to add 90 or subtract 30 to get back up on the top.  :blink: :1eye:

Request vector, direct home. 

POST 10:
*Your vector is.... R U above or below the Equator?* 
Counter Clockwise is above? I can't remember... I'll go flush the toilet and watch the swirls! This post got all side tracked apparently. And I'm not helping either! Anymore "thoughtful" comments will be appreciated. :yes: I was just thinking..... Yahoo search :
*Which way does the water swirl when you flush a toilet on the equator?*

on the Northern hemisphere, the water swirls clockwise. on the Southern hemisphere, it swirls counter-clockwise. What about directly on the center line ????? 

__________________
There is no charge for the free advice, but you get what you pay for ... just sayin' :blink: 
_ Last edited by woodnthings; 01-20-2010 at 07:13 PM.

_*So, swirling water has a definite effect on some things.*_ :surprise2:
_


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

It doesnt swirl on the equator, just goes straight down.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

Brian(J) said:


> I think the main points are,
> 1. If you can get the 3hp, you should.
> and
> 2. You may be able to get there with your exiting wiring.



in your mind!


I see no problem with a 1.75 hp ts running on 120vac for a hobbyist.


I have a 1986 unisaw with a 1.5 hp motor that runs on 120vac, haven't converted to 240 yet, with a sharp blade it'll cut anything I throw at it. all my shop tools are 120vac. I keep them sharp and tuned. _ yes, if you step out of the hobbyist stage to a 20" planer, 12" jointer, etc. then you will need HP and 240vac._


I am a remodeling contractor (25 yrs), and built my own house, considerably more than a hobbyist.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*a good read on 220 V wiring*

http://www.nojolt.com/Understanding_240_volt_circuits.shtml


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> http://www.nojolt.com/Understanding_240_volt_circuits.shtml


Substitute "line" for "hot wire", and "EGC" for ground, and it reads pretty well. (Yeah, I know, technicality). Problem is, for the uninformed, knowing if a website source is correct or not. Much misleading and/or just wrong info out there. Just look through this thread again.


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## Shop_Rat (Dec 22, 2015)

mat 60 said:


> Man..LOL...Please try not to get upset guys...If your happy with 110 and don't understand something it doesn't mean its not all good, But.. .I also had a 1.5hp 110 table saw at one time and changed the wires to have it run on 220 and it had much more power and it did run cooler..I cant believe anyone would ague with the fact that 220 isn't more efficient...Please look into it ..Whats funny is if the 110 guys had upgraded to 220 tools you would no more about what your saying...


And this is why most professionals won't participate in forums not dedicated to the trade. You may as well fight with your wife... And you might even stand a better chance with her!


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Some interesting facts.

Calculated for reference; 50' chosen to represent total circuit length, from breaker to motor.

50' of 12awg for 120V with a 15a load will have a 2.5% voltage drop.

50' of 12awg for 240V with 7.5a load will have 1.3% voltage drop.

Max recommendation for voltage drop is 2%

Most 120V circuits are multi-outlet/multi-drop, hopefully 12awg but could be 14awg(3.9% voltage drop for 50').

Most 240V circuits are single outlet/single drop and minimum 10awg wire(.8% voltage drop for 50').

From the CEC recommendations for circuit sizing:

Branch circuits should be sized to limit voltage drop to two percent (2%), when measured from
the electric service panel to the specific appliance or equipment. Voltage drop occurs any time
electricity travels through a wire. If the wire size is small or the circuit run is long, the voltage
will drop significantly from one end of the wire to the other. Exceeding two percent (2%) can
cause motors to overheat and lowers the performance of heating and lighting devices, as shown
below:
A five percent (5%) voltage drop results in:
10% loss of heat in any heating appliance
17% loss of light from an incandescent lamp
5% increase in current to a motor (causing energy waste)
25% increase in motor heating (causing shortened motor life)

So motors can run "better" on 240V, but it's all about the infrastructure feeding the motor, not something magical about 240V.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

*120 vs 220 for shop*

Most all agree, 220 is needed in a professional shop. 
That said, the original poster is a home shop. His machines will not run 8 hours a day, 5 days per week. He is only a part-time woodworker. 
For home shops, 110 is fine. 
I've built a lot of furniture with 110 equipment. My table saw is 110 and has been very sufficient for all my needs. 
Does 220 have advantages? No doubt. 
We don't run our tools on 50' extension cords in a small home shop. 
I do recommend a 20 amp circuit for the 110.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

_Rat; You may as well fight with your wife... And you might even stand a better chance with her![/QUOTE said:


> Quote--Mat..I feel like I am fighting with my wife right now so I will tell you the same thing..Quote..Im sorry if I hurt your feelings darling.:x


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

just a point of clarification for those not aware ...


when calculating voltage drops, the _distance _used in formula's is based on the distance from the circuit breaker to the load, AND BACK. this includes 120vac circuits, because the current travels out and back (via neutral); and in 240vac 1 phase systems (current travels out and back via the other hot line). so if the wire/cable is 75' long, 150' is used in the calculations.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

TimPa said:


> just a point of clarification for those not aware ...
> 
> 
> when calculating voltage drops, the _distance _used in formula's is based on the distance from the circuit breaker to the load, AND BACK. this includes 120vac circuits, because the current travels out and back (via neutral); and in 240vac 1 phase systems (current travels out and back via the other hot line). so if the wire/cable is 75' long, 150' is used in the calculations.


Correct, the calculator I used takes that into consideration, so the numbers I posted have that baked in.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*well, not always*



Toolman50 said:


> Most all agree, 220 is needed in a professional shop.
> That said, the original poster is a home shop. His machines will not run 8 hours a day, 5 days per week. He is only a part-time woodworker.
> For home shops, 110 is fine.
> I've built a lot of furniture with 110 equipment. My table saw is 110 and has been very sufficient for all my needs.
> ...


Some older home circuits including some that you'll find in the garage, that were built 25 to 30 years ago will be 15 AMPs and supplied with no. 14 wire. This is not adequate for a 1 HP motor, in my opinion. A dedicated 20 AMP circuit with no. 12 wire is best. 

If that's the case, it would be easy enough to change that circuit to a 20 AMP -220 V circuit, since the wiring is adequate. A new breaker and receptacle would be all you need, rated of course at 220 V 20 AMPS.

In my shop all the 120 V outlets are on no. 12 wire and have 20 AMP receptacles. I can run my 1 1/2 HP Jet 1100 DC on them with no issues. A have a 1 3/4HP table saw and a 1 HP jointer on them also. The tools have either no extension cords or a six footer on. no. 12wire. The 3 1/4 HP, 15 AMP Porter Cable routers run on 20 AMP circuits also. 

All my other stationary tools, have 3 HP motors and are on 20 AMP 220V receptacles. I don't thiunk "occasional" use is a factor here. It's either the correct supply wiring, or it's not. The motor won't know that it's only gonna run for 2 hrs on an undersupplied circuit, so it will let you know.... >

I did have to run a 120 V RAS on an 25 ft extension cord outside on one project and the motor overload kept tripping until I switched from a 14 GA cord to a 12 GA cord. I was ripping full 1" cypress in 14 foot lengths, so that was a sustained load to cut even one length.


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## Masterofnone (Aug 24, 2010)

All of you are WAY over thinking this...

You don't absolutely NEED 220. You don't even NEED 110. All you really need is a handsaw.

Electricity is a luxury, not a necessity. To the original poster, I would say buy the biggest saw you can afford. If it is more economical to go for the 1.75hp saw, do it!

Besides a saw is only as strong as it's weakest part. If I really bogged down my saw, the belt would start slipping LONG before the motor would die...


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## Bondsan (May 27, 2014)

Interesting topic. I'm about to purchase a SawStop PCS and I'm pretty much stuck with getting the 1.75 motor. Why? We're planning to move and downsize in one to one and a half years. I then have a garage shop. My current garage doesn't have 220 and I don't want to incur that expense for a years worth of work. Also, as a hobbyist most of my work is in 3/4" or milling 5/4" (or larger) that I get from my local Woodcraft. By the way, does anyone know if Woodcraft delivers SawStops?


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## Oakwerks (Mar 24, 2013)

Bondsan said:


> Interesting topic. I'm about to purchase a SawStop PCS and I'm pretty much stuck with getting the 1.75 motor. Why? We're planning to move and downsize in one to one and a half years. I then have a garage shop. My current garage doesn't have 220 and I don't want to incur that expense for a years worth of work. Also, as a hobbyist most of my work is in 3/4" or milling 5/4" (or larger) that I get from my local Woodcraft. By the way, does anyone know if Woodcraft delivers SawStops?


I bought a 1.75 hp SawStop Pro last year, at the insistence of my better half (I was going for a PowerMatic)....It has all the power I need for my one man shop .... A beautifully made machine that was actually fun to assemble, due to great instructions, and hardware packaging.....
According to the Woodcraft website they charge $350 to ship it from SawStop .....


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

mat 60 said:


> Quote--Mat..I feel like I am fighting with my wife right now so I will tell you the same thing..Quote..Im sorry if I hurt your feelings darling.:x



"Yes Dear" .... :whistling2: :grin:


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 16, 2013)

It cost me $750 to have an electrician add a sub panel right next to my main panel and to run two 220VAC lines, one for a heater and one for my saw. I have never regretted it. When my saw slices through 12/4 maple I sometimes wonder if my old Craftsman 1.5 HP could have even done it in three passes.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

The following was taken from Inspectapedia.com. This is a free Encyclopedia of Building & Environmental Inspection, Testing, Diagnosis, Repair. The following was an example using a water pump.


So what advantages do we get from running an electric motor at 240V rather than 120V?

Pump pressure switch data (C) Daniel Friedman

*Most electric motors will be a little easier to start turning at higher voltage*. And for the same amperage draw, at 240V a smaller diameter circuit wire may be permitted - thus the circuit is a little less costly.

Finally, *on a long circuit, the voltage drop due to resistance of the wire itself will be less at 240V than at 120V. However,* separately, some experts point out that higher voltage circuits are potentially more dangerous.

In sum, the* electric bill is about the same, but at 240V the pump has a little easier time starting, it may thus have a little longer life, *and the wiring might be less costly.

*The improvements in efficiency of use of electrical power is slightly better at higher voltages (less energy loss) but running a water pump will not be noticeably more or less costly between the two options.*

See DEFINITIONS of ELECTRICAL TERMS for definitions of Amps, Volts, Watts, Ohms, etc.

Our photo at left shows the data tag inside of a pump pressure control switch and shows that the switch might be wired for either 120V or 240V if other site conditions and equipment specifications permit.

I thought I was done with this post, but i came across this and so i changed my mind. This is my final post on the subject - maybe.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

OOPs
Sorry, this was an accidental double posy


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Tony B said:


> The following was taken from Inspectapedia.com. This is a free Encyclopedia of Building & Environmental Inspection, Testing, Diagnosis, Repair. The following was an example using a water pump.
> 
> 
> So what advantages do we get from running an electric motor at 240V rather than 120V?
> ...


You prove it most of the way in this, but again, the pump doesn't "have an easier time starting" only due to 240V.

When a motor is under load(starting), the current draw spikes. If the circuit is undersized and there is voltage drop, then the motor will have a hard time starting up. So 240V isn't going to magically make your motor under load spin up better, the properly sized circuit will.

In this instance they appear to be talking about a well pump, which could have a very long feed going to it, probably don't want to push some 4awg wire to a 120V pump motor...


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

RogerInColorado said:


> *It cost me $750* to have an electrician add a sub panel right next to my main panel and to run two 220VAC lines, one for a heater and one for my saw. I have never regretted it. When my saw slices through 12/4 maple I sometimes wonder if my old Craftsman 1.5 HP could have even done it in three passes.


Wow! I'm glad I put mine in myself - only cost materials. A Deacon in our church is an electrician and he came by to make sure I did everything correctly before I flipped the switch.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

shoot summ said:


> ........the pump doesn't "have an easier time starting" *only* due to 240V.
> 
> *I totally agree, that is why I emphasized the "only" in your reply*
> 
> ...


*

Sorry I got too wordy.*


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

I read the whole thread and now my head Hertz.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*I'm Tired of Cycling Through This*

I remember when it was called Cycles per Second


Also, sorry if I keep mixing it up between 110/220 and 120/240. 
I have lived in areas where they were different. Sometimes I refer to one or the other. 
Back in the 1960's, brown-outs were common in NYC. We were actually closer to 100/200.
It really played hell with motors and compressors that required more.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Good afternoon,
Sorry long getting back here but was under the weather last few days. Well got worked with the Electrican, I will have a dedicated 220 line in to the shop 300 not bad, and ordered my 3 hp pcs. So I should be good to go now, thx for all the support and education in electricity, RJ


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Glad we could be of help. You wont be sorry.

When it comes tome to unload the saw, you wont get much help here.

Ragards 

Tony B


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