# Cold Wood ??



## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Due to space restrictions, my garage has to pull double duty and also serves as my workshop. The problem is that currently (and for the foreseeable future) the garage is unheated. I have a portable propane heater that I use when I am working out there to bring the temperature up to 75 if I need to in the winter. I live in Chicago and we have very long, cold winters. My only option right now is the portable heater.

My question is regarding the wood I am going to use to build a table (select pine) that has been sitting in the unheated garage (30 to 40 degrees) for a week. Do I need to bring the wood in the house to bring it up to "room temperature" before I start working with it, or is it okay to use as-is? I do know that I will need to bring it indoors for glue-ups but I am just wondering if I can start cutting it as-is.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

search the threads with the key word temperature. There are several posts to answer your query in other threads.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

I checked other threads before posting my original question and only found one other related post. It basically said temperature is not an issue; humidity is. Can anyone confirm that? I was hoping to get help on this forum and frankly so far have gotten very little.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> I checked other threads before posting my original question and only found one other related post. It basically said temperature is not an issue; humidity is. Can anyone confirm that? I was hoping to get help on this forum and frankly so far have gotten very little.


Hi Tom

Your big issue is humidity. The only real advantage to having the wood in a warm environment is that it will tend to dry more quickly. If you can store the wood somewhere in the house it will acclimatise to the humidity level in the house. Thermal expansion/contaction in wood is pretty minimal, so that isn't your real problem.
You can do all your initial cutting in your cold garage, and then bring the wood in to settle down. I wouldn't do any final sanding, fitting, or finishing until the wood is settled down, in sync with the environment in the house.

Gerry


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Tom, I would say the only time temperature will be an issue is if the wood actually freezes. Arguably that is still a humidity issue, but either way will affect your work.


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## steve mackay (Oct 5, 2008)

Awhile ago a book followed me home. "American Victoriana". Collection from old Scientific American, building editions. One blurb caught my attention and I couldn't get it out of my head. "There was going the rounds of the newspapers a statement that lumber worked when frozen would not shrink. A lumberman, in the language peculiar to his trade, communicated to The Northwestern Lumberman his experience in testing the frozen lumber theory. "I was once running a little mill, and about the middle of winter we got short of flooring, when an able-bodied liar came along and give it to me. He not only asserted that frozen lumber would not shrink in a floor, but he got up on his hind legs and swore to it. He had known it tried in many cases, and it was always successfulland made a better floor than well-seasoned flooring. I was caught. I swallowed it whole. I took green strips, frozen, and put them down frozen so hard that you could hardly get a nail throughthem, and they shrank almost out of matching. I simply kicked myself for being such an idiot as to belive the story, wich is certainly at variance with all natural laws, and I have been looking for that able-bodied liar ever since." I guess it is the language of that era that I really took note of.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> I checked other threads before posting my original question and only found one other related post. It basically said temperature is not an issue; humidity is. Can anyone confirm that? I was hoping to get help on this forum and frankly so far have gotten very little.


humidity?? I think if you read the thread that in fact it indicates that it is not the humidity that effects wood but the moisture content within the wood although the humidity can cause slight changes in the wood moisture content. The temperature with in your shop probably will have little effect on your wood unless you are some superhuman type individual that works in his wood shop in temprature below zero with frost forming on your mustache like some mountainman in a remake of Jeramiah Johnson making fine cabinetry for the next fur rondy. Even if your lumber sat naked all night in your shop at 10 degrees, by the time your normal human hands were able to suffer through the tedium of manipulating it into the latest creation worthy of fine woodworkers magazine, the temperature would have surely raised within the wood to a measurably comfortable and stable level of which even Al Gore and the IPCC would approve. Asking if any one would "confirm" the previous thread stating that moisture does indeed effect the stability of wood to be used in your project and stating that you recieved little help in your query because some one directed you to previously iterated laments on the subject would suggest that you thought we might have been just teasing the first time.


Do you believe now? I hope I helped. 

PS..propane and LNG gas fired heaters put alot of moisture in the air.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Mics_54 I have no idea what you are talking about.......however to the rest of you, thank you very much for helping this rookie out with what i evidently wrongly assumed was a fairly innocent and straightforward question....


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## Itchy Brother (Aug 22, 2008)

On titebond II it says temperture of wood and glue should be above 50 degrees.My garage is about that so I did the glue up on a couple of joint then set the hair dryer down on each joint for 10 min or so to get it jump started.Does anyone else do this or am I just a MORON! lol .It also says to keep the clamps on for 30 minutes but I leave them on for an hour or so. Im kinda new at this stuff and experimenting along the way.So far so good-got all fingers.Before I use the table saw I think of the damage It'll do if I dont give it respect. Itchy


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

OK tom, here's the deal.
#1 temperature isn't a big deal except for the following situations
A) Water based adhesives freeze below 32 degrees. This is not desirable because freezing generally renders the product unusable. Most if not all adhesives perform in a more desirable manner at a higher temprature which is usually noted on the container in which they were purchased.
B) Wood may expand and contract minutely with temperature fluctuations BUT this will not adversly affect a glue up because the glue up will expand and contract as a whole. Expansion of a "unit" such as a table top would not matter until the "unit" is attached to some other unit which would expand or contract in an unlike or opposing direction causing the POSSIBILITY of separation of the wood. This is probably not going to be an issue except in extreme conditions or in projects of fragile construction such as musical instruments etc.
C) The process of glue up will be faster at a warmer temprature. This not necessarily an advantage nor a disadvantage. It depends upon the complexity of the glue up or the desired time of curing. Slowing down the curing process might be an advantage in some instances.

2) Moisture content is a more critical variable because:
A) It is more difficult to manipulate the moisture content of wood to a desired level/time span. You can remove all the moisture (humidity) in a given room but this will not immediately change the moisture in a board. 
B) Moisture content in lumber will vary with the environment at a rate that varies with a plethora other variables. Species, temperature, humidity, thickness, the manner in which it is stored, the manner in which it is finished all effect a piece of wood throughout its existance.

3) Your lumber was probably purchased as "kiln dried" lumber. Depending on the means in which it was stored, transported etc. and the elapsed time since it had leaves growing on it, it MIGHT be dried enough to build your table. I say MIGHT because its really only guessing. Without measuring the moisture content within a specific piece of lumber, the moisture content cannot be known. There are ways to determine this content one of which is to use a meter that measures the moisture in wood. These meters are available from $50.00 to $500.00. I don't own one because they are too expensive. The only other method and the one that I use is that I store the lumber in a dry environment for a period of time in a manner condusive to the goal. ie. stickered, stacked, in manner that guards against uneven drying. If it's "kiln dried" lumber and I have a warm dry space I store it in this manner for 1-2 weeks depending upon the time constraints of the project. If its a cold space above freezing. I may opt for a longer period of time. If the lumber is stored in a space that is below freezing..it will not dry.

I bet you knew all this already.

PS I forgot to mention that green lumber shrinks considerably with the drying process. "kiln dried" lumber will shrink and swell in direct relation to the change in moisture content. It may or may not effect the finished product. It may warp or check depending upon the individual board. The overall glue up of a table top will probably be ok given the perameters you posted.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Moisture in air dried wood 
minimum temperature in the workshop 
project from cold shop to warm house?? 
Moisture Meter 
wood expansion 
Workshop Heat 

here are just a few threads you might find pertinant. 
Also: Wood Shrinkage Explained
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/shrinkage.htm


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Thank you Mics_54. To my admittedly uneducated eye when it comes to woodworking (I am a total newbie), that is great information and makes perfect sense to me. I can only hope my project comes out as well as your explanation. 

I know I have a lot to learn and some of my questions are really elementary, but I appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. If you're willing, I am sure I'll have more questions as I get deeper into this addiction.

Thanks again to all.

Regards,
Tom


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

MICS said "humidity?? I think if you read the thread that in fact it indicates that it is not the humidity that effects wood but the moisture content within the wood although the humidity can cause slight changes in the wood moisture content."

I totally agree with everything you are saying, except, I think you are underestimating the part that humidity plays in effecting the moisture content of the wood. 

George


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

:surrender:


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

My apologies to all, for any confusion. I was using the term humidity slightly out of context. mics 54 is absolutely right. It is the moisture content of the wood that affects its shrinkage and expansion. It is the humidity of the air which affects moisture content.

Gerry


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm just throwing in with the above,

Wood, properly dried, works well in my unheated shop. Wood not properly dried is a problem. I can (and will, if you ask) show you pieces glued at 20 degrees (temp), that haven't moved at all, inside. 

And, I made a beautiful solid oak trash lid that curved 10 degrees when brought inside. I got this oak from a "questionable" source. Give me some time (it's a funny picture). I don't have my cable with me, to download. Anyways, dryness of the wood is key.


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

P.S The glued pieces were (later) brought inside to dry.


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