# kreg jig or biscuit jointer



## ponch37300

I would like to get one of the two to fasten face frames of cabinets and other joints. I've never used a biscuit jointer. I have used a kreg jig before. There is a used porter cable 557 biscuit jointer at a local pawn shop for 110 bucks that looks to be in good shape. The kreg jig is 99 for one kit and 139 for the deluxe kit. So price being pretty close to the same which one do you prefere, or are they used in two totally different situations? Guess I'm just trying to figure out which one I would use the most and be better for me. I'm sure that each tool has it's purpose in woodworking but I can't afford both of them right now so would like to get one. Thanks


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## firefighteremt153

If I had to choose between the two, I would get the Kreg master system. I think it will serve you better than the biscuit joiner. I have both and I can't remember the last time I even open up the case to my biscuit joiner but I use the Kreg jig quit often.


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## KevinK

I have and use both, but for your purposes the kreg jig would be more appropriate. Besides there is always time to buy the biscuit jointer when you more funds. I would either go with the PC or the Lamello, but another option is the domino by festool. Just thinking of your future options 

Good Luck

Kevin


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## mrk5318

I recently saw a kreg jig setup in lowes that only cost $39.99. I don't know if it will have all that you are looking for but it came with the bit and the guide piece. They also had the kreg clamp for I think $19.99.


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## firehawkmph

Mrk,
I have both also. I use the Kreg jig about 50 times for every time I use the biscuit joiner. Nothing wrong with the p/c, but the kreg is much more versatile and a lot quicker. Also, 110.00 for a used p/c sounds like too much. I didn't pay a whole lot more than that for a new one. 
Mike Hawkins


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## Leo G

Simple.

Kreg Jig.


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## ponch37300

Thanks for making it "simple" guys! Looks like I'll be getting a kreg jig. I looked at the pc biscuit joiner on the home depot site and it said they are 220 brand new so I thought 110 wasn't that bad but I'll just get the kreg instead. Thanks again for your help.


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## cabinetman

You really don't need either. I don't want to be the party pooper, but what ever happened to traditional joinery? Take the money and buy a good book on joinery, and learn woodworking. Isn't that what this is all about?


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## Leo G

Maybe he wants to make money too.


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## cabinetman

Leo G said:


> Maybe he wants to make money too.



I made money without them.


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## Leo G

I have made a lot more with the Kreg jig than with "nice" joinery. When I make things for myself or other family members I use joinery. When I am competing for a job I need to limit joinery to things that matter. Mostly, the Kreg jig is used on face frames. And I glue all my FF to the carcasses (that are dadoed and glued). Having M&T would be a waste of time. If someone specifically asked, and was willing to pay, then they would get it.


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## cabinetman

Leo G said:


> I have made a lot more with the Kreg jig than with "nice" joinery. When I make things for myself or other family members I use joinery. When I am competing for a job I need to limit joinery to things that matter. Mostly, the Kreg jig is used on face frames. And I glue all my FF to the carcasses (that are dadoed and glued). Having M&T would be a waste of time. If someone specifically asked, and was willing to pay, then they would get it.



Face frame joints don't have to be earthquake proof. Using PH's or biscuits may hold the joint until you glue to the carcass, but once on where are they going to go? 

We all have different types of clients, and if I delivered a cabinet with pocket holes, I'm sure the client would expect to see an IKEA sticker somewhere. Definitely not custom. Go to frameless construction and do without the hassle of the FF.












 





 






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## Leo G

I hate frameless. I think it is a cheap copout of a cabinet. Designed to be quick, cheap and material efficient.


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## cabinetman

Leo G said:


> I hate frameless. I think it is a cheap copout of a cabinet. Designed to be quick, cheap and material efficient.



Isn't that why you use pocket holes and biscuits?


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## Leo G

I use pocket screw to speed things up. It is still a quality cabinet, just sped up construction. I don't use pocket screws when I build Euro cabinets, I use stop dadoes. I use full dadoes on my FF cabinets, exposed ends are just glued, sometimes I use screws on the hidden ends, sometimes just glue. I am in it to make money and build a good quality cabinet that will last 25+ years. No need to make heirloom quality kitchen cabinets. All my furniture is full joinery, usually mortice and tenon and dovetails. No need to build a kitchen cabinet to those standards, at least until somebody requests it and wants to write the check for me. This is a business for me, not a hobby.


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## johnep

Cost out your time per minute. Make one cabinet with pocket holes and another with classical joinery. That should give you an answer.

Is a chap on utube showing that he can cut freehand dovetails quicker than setting up a jig.

Me, pocket holes best thing I found out on the forum. Particularly if you have few tools etc.
johnep


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## ponch37300

Thanks for the help guys. By classic joinery do you mean mortise and tenon? I did a couple of projects with these joints in high school but we had a nice mortising machine that I don't have now. I wouldn't mind doing mortise and tenon joints but just thought I would use pocket holes for now since they are easy and hold good. 

Leo or cabinetman...could you please give a quick description of frameless/ faceframe cabinet construction? Thanks for your help.


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## Leo G

My standard face frame cabinet construction









My latest Euro cabinet construction - blind dadoes


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## ponch37300

Thanks for the pictures Leo. I will have to find a book and improve my knowledge of cabinetry. Anyone know of a good book on cabinetry? Thanks again for the help.

Also what size screws do you use the most for your pocket holes? And where is the best place to buy the screws? Thanks guys.


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## johnep

Look on the Kreg site. Generally use two different screw threads for hard and soft woods. Screws for pocket holes usually have built in washer under head and Robertson square drives.

Should be available from your usual supplier.

johnep


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## Nate1778

Kreg jig for sure.

Its not the end all but if I had to choose one, that would be it.

I do have a biscuit jointer, mortiser and tennoning jig though to cover all the basis. Each project in mind calls for a different method, but the Kreg will work in most applications.


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## radionightster

ponch37300 said:


> Thanks for the pictures Leo. I will have to find a book and improve my knowledge of cabinetry. Anyone know of a good book on cabinetry? Thanks again for the help.
> 
> Also what size screws do you use the most for your pocket holes? And where is the best place to buy the screws? Thanks guys.


When you buy the Kreg jig it tells you all of this. It gives you a guide showing how deep to make the hole, and it tells you what size screw to use. (It all depends on the thickness of the wood you are using.) It recommends using Kreg's proprietary screws.

Look up "Kreg pocket hole jig" on http://www.youtube.com - there are a few videos which show just how easy it is. 

If you haven't used this tool, it is amazingly easy. On my first project ever (a basic box), I used the Kreg jig. If you follow directions it is difficult to make a mistake. It is super easy and very nice, and the pockets it leaves in the wood are very professional looking (but you should fill them in  - the make a part for that too). I would recommend buying Kreg's clamp too if you don't have a similar one. 

I think some of this pocket screw VS MT/dado comes from some people believing that there should not be any metal in a piece of wood. My uncle is like a Picasso with wood, making honestly the most beautiful cabinets I've ever seen (for multi-million dollar houses, etc), and he doesn't like the idea of using pocket screws. Me? I liked it


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## cabinetman

radionightster said:


> My uncle is like a Picasso with wood, making honestly the most beautiful cabinets I've ever seen (for multi-million dollar houses, etc), and he doesn't like the idea of using pocket screws. Me? I liked it



I never met your uncle, but I like him already. If he gets physically sick to his stomach at the thought of biscuits, I might even invite him over for a beer, or a bottle of a fairly expensive wine while we shoot the $hit about woodworking.


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## radionightster

cabinetman said:


> I never met your uncle, but I like him already. If he gets physically sick to his stomach at the thought of biscuits, I might even invite him over for a beer, or a bottle of a fairly expensive wine while we shoot the $hit about woodworking.


If you ever pass through southern Louisiana let me know!


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## toddj99

I use the kregg jig quite a bit lately. Never used a bisuit joiner. I have deep respect for those who can do the nice joinery in a fairly quick fashion but I'm figuring this stuff out as I go, never have had any official schooling, apprenticeship, or training and have to be able to put out a project in a reletively quick manner since my time is balanced between my wife/kids, full time job then the woodworking. The kregg helps me do just that and the customers I have aren't the type to spend 5 grand on an item. The most expensive thing I have lined up to construct is a computer desk for 1500 to be done by DEC. As for wishing to have a level of skill, I would kill to have the ability of this individual at this site: http://www.woodweb.com/galleries/project/posts/1355.html. He's only a few years older than me but he went straight into woodworking while I've spent most of my adult life in the army.


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## rrbrown

Cabinet Man if you don't like pocket screws or bisquits what do you use for face frames?


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## Leo G

Do it the old fashion way with dowels oe the antique way with mortise and tenon.

To time consuming for making money on cabinet, but the standard for fine furniture.


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## cabinetman

rrbrown said:


> Cabinet Man if you don't like pocket screws or bisquits what do you use for face frames?



Most all of my casework is done frameless. Faceframes to me are a waste of time and an added expense. For overlay door and drawer front applications, most all of the faceframe is covered anyway. Hinges and mounting plates for face frames are IMO inferior to frameless setups. These are a few of the reasons I don't do faceframes. Frameless construction if done with approporiate materials and reasonable dimensions work out just fine. I don't find whatever strength a FF gives the cabinet is worth the difference.

I will do faceframes if the design calls for that detail, or that there is a need for a FF to add to the visual aspect of the job, like carvings, or intricate profiling or a moulding in between doors.

One aspect about FF's is that I like the underside of the cabinets flush and finished, and the floors of the cabinet flush. That means that the bottom rail is going to be 3/4" x 3/4". That doesn't add enough rigidity to the floor of the cabinet to make it worthwhile doing a FF. Next is adding drawer slides, which for frameless cabinets is a snap. You're not dealing with the FF overhang.

Anyway, I kinda got off the subject here. Now to answer your question. When I do faceframes, there are a few fast ways of doing them. One way is I cut all my rails long and my lathe can take almost 40" in length. So, I turn the ends for a 3/8" dowel, and having it a bit long, cut off the stub from the spur bit. Drill a 3/8" hole in the stile, and it fits.

Another method I use is a through tenon, which can be cut pretty fast on the TS:
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.
Or, I might do a half lap joint which is a very strong joint:
.


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## Leo G

cabinetman said:


> Most all of my casework is done frameless. Faceframes to me are a waste of time and an added expense. For overlay door and drawer front applications, most all of the faceframe is covered anyway. Hinges and mounting plates for face frames are IMO inferior to frameless setups. These are a few of the reasons I don't do faceframes. Frameless construction if done with approporiate materials and reasonable dimensions work out just fine. I don't find whatever strength a FF gives the cabinet is worth the difference.


Not very Old School.:huh:


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## rrbrown

Well Cabinetman thanks for the answer but I disagree with your opinion some. I like the look of a FF and agree that it is slightly harder to mount drawers because of the FF. I don't like the pocket screws but I do use the biscuits in the FF although that is my choice. I dado the face frames to except a rabbit on the sides and bottom along with the bottom and back rabbits into the sides. It is a little more work but very strong. below is how I join the FF and bottom and as you can see it does provide a lot of strength even using 1/2" for the bottom is strong. I like to shoot small brads in the joints and at the biscuits but always where they are not visible. 

I will however try some of your methods because I always like to learn new ways of doing things. I doubt it but one day I may even try a pocket screw jig. 

What really bothers me is I bought a new house after Katrina and it has all " custom " wood cabinets so they say. One they're oak I hate oak. Two although they used pocket screws what really drives me nuts is they nailed right threw the FF into the cabinet. When I build custom cabinets You would have to turn them upside down or look from the back to find a nail and then it is only a small hidden brad. No matter how much you try to cover the nails you can always see them so why nail threw the FF?

As for the oak my wife is trying to get me to change them but I have thick solid granite that I'm not willing to move. So for the time being the oak is fine.:laughing:


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## rrbrown

I need to learn to draw with sketchup like Leo G. It starts off easy and by the time I get almost done everything goes wrong.


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## Leo G

I don't use sketchup, never have. I do my renderings with eCabinet.


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## cabinetman

rrbrown said:


> I dado the face frames to except a rabbit on the sides and bottom along with the bottom and back rabbits into the sides. It is a little more work but very strong. below is how I join the FF and bottom and as you can see it does provide a lot of strength even using 1/2" for the bottom is strong. I like to shoot small brads in the joints and at the biscuits but always where they are not visible.



IMO, 1/2" is inadequate for carcass construction. The thinnest material I would use is melamine when it's 5/8". As for face frame mounting to the front edge, just glue and clamps is all that's needed. No profiles are necessary. If you assemble the FF, and it's square. block sand the back of it to make sure it's flat, and that's including the joints. Block sand the leading edge of the cabinet. After it's glued and clamped, you can't pull it off. In fact, once the glue dries, using a block and hammer to pound it off, the front edge of the cabinet will likely get destroyed. DAMHIKT

Once glued on, the joinery is well substantiated by all the pieces being glued to the edge. That's when a 3/4" edge will provide an excellent adhesion surface. Using biscuits to mount a face frame provides a questionable bond to keep parts from pulling apart. Face frames don't have to be earthquake proof. 

In addition, there's a myth that biscuits are good for alignment. If there is enough room to slide in a biscuit, there's room for movement. Biscuits can also expand to the point that they could show a "bump" in the surface of the panel. I'm just offering my opinion for whatever that's worth.


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## SawsAll

I started with a bisquit jointer when I had an opportunity to buy a like new used one and I thought it was a great tool to have around. Since then I purchased a Kreg jig and for time sake it will save you in the long run. With the Kreg you don't have to wait for the glue to dry to continue on with the project. I have to agree with the Cabinetman when it comes to regular joinery, it something you can take pride in!!!:thumbsup:


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## rrbrown

Cabinetman I asked the question so I was interested in your opinion even if I don't agree totally, it's still new knowledge which is always good. I have when asked used 1/2" for the carcass construction but prefer 3/4". I was referring to those cabinets because I am 200+ lbs and I can stand on top or inside a cabinet that I made with rabbit/dado joints and it is strong. I do not like butt joints without dowels,biscuits or something extra added. I use biscuits to connect the rail and stile of the FF but use dado and rabbit to attach the FF to the carcass. I am not crazy about the kreg jig and I absolutely hate nails going through FF into the carcass. I usually have a tendency to over kill in favor of strength but believe me If you use dado/rabbit joints on all sides of the carcass construction 1/2" is allot stronger then you think and 3/4" is just crazy strong. I don't do production work or maybe I would like butt joints and kreg jigs more. 

If someone never leaves room for learning something new then they should just quit all together.


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