# dining table plan



## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Going to be making a simple farm-style dining table and bench for the wife. I have a friend I can borrow pocket hole jig from. I plan on pocket hole screwing the skirt to the pre-turned legs as well as tabletop slats together. Should I also use it for securing the top to the frame? I ask because I've seen that some people like using wood buttons and slit along the skirts for joinery for tables. They want it for wood movement. I'll be using kiln dried 2x6 for my top and probably 1 x 6 boards for the skirts. I will be planing and surface jointing the 2x6s so I don't expect much movement. 

Any tips on which method for tabletop assembly?

Also to note: I will be building this somewhat modular in the garage then taking it inside for final assembly since I can't fit a big table where it's eventually going to go. I thought of those corner mounting brackets at first but then thought that pocket holes for the side skirts would be enough.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

mendozer said:


> Going to be making a simple farm-style dining table and bench for the wife. I have a friend I can borrow pocket hole jig from. I plan on pocket hole screwing the skirt to the pre-turned legs as well as tabletop slats together. Should I also use it for securing the top to the frame? I ask because I've seen that some people like using wood buttons and slit along the skirts for joinery for tables. They want it for wood movement. I'll be using kiln dried 2x6 for my top and probably 1 x 6 boards for the skirts. I will be planing and surface jointing the 2x6s so I don't expect much movement.
> 
> Any tips on which method for tabletop assembly?
> 
> Also to note: I will be building this somewhat modular in the garage then taking it inside for final assembly since I can't fit a big table where it's eventually going to go. I thought of those corner mounting brackets at first but then thought that pocket holes for the side skirts would be enough.


You need to read all those threads where they "thought" wood doesn't move.....it's alive....it breathes....it moves!!!! Many, many, many,many,many....did I mention MANY???? have ruined flat surfaces by improper anchoring (whichever method you chose, there's usually a way to make it work correctly if properly done). I'm not going into details....TOO much has been written and asked on the subject along with some disagreements (imagine that here!!! LOL!!!)

I hope those aren't a lumberyard/house wood/framing.....not dry enough!!! Different MC specs!!!!


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

I know it expands and stuff, so what are my options really?

I don't really want 2x6 from HD since it's S4S. I want rough cut since I'll plane and join them. what grade of 2x would you recommend?


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm basing it loosely on this

http://rogueengineer.com/diy-farmhouse-dining-table-plans/


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

All you have to do is run a dado on the back side of the skirt and fasten it to the top with table top fasteners. http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fasteners 

Then mount the legs to the skirt so the top is free to expand and contract.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

I was looking at those for alternative to wood blocks. IDK why exactly but some prefer wood blocks. Maybe it allows for more movement? So the table top will expand lengthwise along the grain...?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*So hardwood?*



mendozer said:


> I know it expands and stuff, so what are my options really?
> 
> I don't really want 2x6 from HD since it's S4S. I want rough cut since I'll plane and join them. what grade of 2x would you recommend?


When you say 2 X 6 that immediately calls for dimensioned lumber, softwood, construction grade. It is not available "rough sawn"., but as you say S4S. So then we think hardwood, rough sawn or maybe some softwood species from a mill? Right? What species?
You got a source for this?

Now as far as wood movement there's a whole bunch of info on what to do regarding attaching a top to the skirt and breadboard ends IF you are going that way?


Next issue is joinery. What method ..... mortise and tenon, nut and bolt, pocket screws? 

Next issue is design. Cross brace "X" type, vertical legs? You gotta have a plan before we can be much help and you gotta really understand wood movement, EMC, moisture content, "kiln dried" and acclimation to the environment to have a successful project.

Finally, you gotta have a bunch of clamps ready to go and a nice work surface IF you are gluing these planks together:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/door-build-2-xs-1-4-ply-55717/


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

mendozer said:


> I'm basing it loosely on this
> 
> http://rogueengineer.com/diy-farmhouse-dining-table-plans/




A nice project. Make sure your lumber is kiln dried. Buy your 2" lumber S4S to save yourself a lot of time. 
I'm not a big fan of Pine. Too soft. Not a good top with children. Best when you want a rustic look. I recommend making the top out of Alder.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nope.*



mendozer said:


> I was looking at those for alternative to wood blocks. IDK why exactly but some prefer wood blocks. Maybe it allows for more movement? So the table top will expand lengthwise along the grain...?



Like I said above you gotta understand wood movement. Is does not change length, along the grain. It expands and contracts across the grain or in width. :|








Another thing is where in the tree/log the plank is cut from will determine how the wood will warp as it dries. You can look at the end of the plank and see how the grain looks. Vertical grain is best for woodworking project and it's call quartersawn. Large arching grain circles are from flat sawing and that plank has a greater tendency to cup as it dries.









How you mate your planks matters also:


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

mendozer said:


> Going to be making a simple farm-style dining table and bench............. so I don't expect much movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I seen several posts here with advice....BUT you've posted 3 different statements which explains you need to understand moisture , movement and joinery....We only want to help you. PLEASE take the time to learn and understand. We have craftsmen here from all styles, some don't agree with each others style of joinery types BUT we all understand if we build with movement in mind our pieces survive....I can build from fresh sawn....BUT I know all the issues and things that would happen and what the final outcome would be...or not be....so I DON'T.

Take a little time and absorb this info....we didn't learn overnight and we don't want to see others make the mistakes we made....most of us learned the hard way from hardknocks and mistakes... without available info at hand easily as the web.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I think the moral of the stories I'm reading here lately is if you see a plan with the words "Farm House Table" and "Kreg" just move on, otherwise you are in for a world of hurt.

Study up on proper joinery and wood movement, then find a plan to build your table that is not going to lead to trouble.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

FrankC said:


> I think the moral of the stories I'm reading here lately is if you see a plan with the words "Farm House Table" and "Kreg" just move on, otherwise you are in for a world of hurt.
> 
> Study up on proper joinery and wood movement, then find a plan to build your table that is not going to lead to trouble.


LOL !!!! I agree. It's sad how many think Kreg screw is a craft......YES it can be done correctly with Kregs IF proper knowledge of wood movement is understood.....BUT it is NOT a craftsman/woodworker skill. Kreg screws have their place and I use them myself at times for certian fits/places. MANY have actually used them more incorrectly and gave the screw a bad rap...along with bad name for craftsmen.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

woodnthings thanks for the photos, I'm a visual learner. I'll keep that in mind for orienting the planks for the top. 

As for the comments on understanding joinery and throwing out the Kreg...mad respect to true craftsmen, truly. But I am not one of you. I enjoy building things, but I also understand that I'm too busy with too many projects to take a while to learn old school joinery to make a table that will last 85 years. If it lasts 10 years I'd be excited. If it fails after 5, I get to have fun building a table again. So I respect your comments, but I have to be honest and say I will not be dedicating myself (right now) to learn these things. If I had a friend to teach me, then maybe. But for now, I'm a quick and efficient DIY builder, not "craftsman"


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

You are free to build as you please, I only hope threads like this prevent others from unknowingly making mistakes and wasting costly material.


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## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

Building a table using good joinery takes no longer than building a table with bad joinery. 

Using pocket screws to hold legs onto a large heavy table will fail much sooner than you think. If you insist on attaching the legs with screws at the very least add in 45 degree braces at the corners lagged into the legs.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

woodnthings, thanks for the sketches of the board layout. My wife reminded me while at our local Woodcraft store that I owe her a dining room table. Will probably pestering you folks with all kinds of questions.


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## terryh (Nov 11, 2013)

Kerrys said:


> Building a table using good joinery takes no longer than building a table with bad joinery. .....


So true.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

ok well keeping my design plans the same, am I better off using the corner brackets than pocket hole screws? I am certainly willing to learn if the pocket holes are really THAT bad of an idea. 

http://www.rockler.com/surface-mount-corner-brackets-for-table-aprons

I was also thinking of using a straight router bit to run grooves in the 3" wide leg tops for the aprons to slide into. This table will be 40"W x 64" L so not very large.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Or better yet, so as not to pester you too much, are there any recommended resources like websites or books I should look into?


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## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

I would use mortise and tenon joints for the legs and skirt boards, even with that I would add some sort of 45 brace. Someone here posted a simple, homemade, interlocking 45 brace that looked like it could be made easily on a table saw. Unfortunately I don't remember the thread. If you don't have the time or means to do mortise and tenon use the pocket screws and add in the 45 braces. You can also buy metal corner braces like thes https://www.amazon.com/Corner-Brace...547136&sr=8-1&keywords=Metal+table+leg+braces. The big box stores might have them. 

As for constructing the top I will leave that for others to tackle. My opinion is the pocket screw method shown will work but your top is going to move considerably in a short time. How and how much is hard to say.

I don't think anyone here thinks you are pestering them. Ask your questions, pay attention to the answers and learn. I think most here only want to help.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*here's your leg brace Post 14*










http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/table-leg-bracing-20431/

I even started a challenge as to how you might make them:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/leg-brace-alternative-method-challenge-33352/


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## nxtgeneration (Feb 22, 2016)

One other thing that was not mentioned is how to attach the breadboard end. I would not recommend attaching it to each board via pocket screws. Do a search on here for breadboard ends. There has been several discussions on the proper way to attach them. Heck, there was just someone on here a few weeks ago with a twisted up table that may have been caused by improper joinery.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/table-leg-bracing-20431/
> 
> I even started a challenge as to how you might make them:
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/leg-brace-alternative-method-challenge-33352/


that's a very cool corner brace. From a structural integrity aspect, is that going to be much much better than the metal brackets or do you just like doing projects out of all wood? 

I think I'll attach the aprons to the legs with M&T 3/4 sided (open from the top so a giant dado cut) since I have dado blades and no easy tools for a full M&T.

the structural support will be a 2x4 trimmed for sharp edges (from down from a 2x10 S4S) which will slide into the dados. Then a 1x6 board will be the exterior of this, screwed together from the 2x4 outward to the 1x6 to hide screws. 

Then a corner bracket of some sort metal or wood at all 4. Then the top mounted to the skirt with those sliding metal pieces in a thin dado along the skirt inside. 

Since I need to assemble this inside the dining room, will I be able to just do two ends (say the long ends) glued in the mortises, then not glue the short ends? I'm curious about disassembly down the road.

And yes, I did look into using the mortised breadboard attachment. However, not sure how I'll do this without a machine for that.


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## nxtgeneration (Feb 22, 2016)

mendozer said:


> that's a very cool corner brace. From a structural integrity aspect, is that going to be much much better than the metal brackets or do you just like doing projects out of all wood?
> 
> I think I'll attach the aprons to the legs with M&T 3/4 sided (open from the top so a giant dado cut) since I have dado blades and no easy tools for a full M&T.
> 
> ...



Check out jayscustomcreations.com. Jay has a pretty indepth build of a very similar table. I understand most of us don't have all the tools he has but sometimes we are able to use what we have in new ways to achieve the results needed. He has two separate videos, one for the table and one for the breadboard.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

woodnthings, I like that corner brace and I think I'll do that if I can. I've been brainstorming for the past few days and wonder about these things:


1. For the sides, I'm using structural lumber for cost/strength, but want to put an outer 1x6 for the "decorative"skirt. Should my 2x be a 4 or 6"? I was thinking 2x6 now for more tenon to go into the leg, plus total glue adhesion from the 1x6 board whatever it may be (maple, oak, etc). Should glue be enough or should I also screw it with plugs to ensure bonding? Keeping in mind this skirt won't be going into the table leg's mortise, just the 2x material (or if it's beneficial, I can do both).


2. I was leaning away from the breadboard since it seemed complicated, but I got a joining book and am struck by some new mounting ideas, I've seen the link above for the M&T. That seems more involved than others I just discovered. I could get a dovetail router set then do those and slide the breadboard onto the edge. Not sure not strong that joint will be though in terms of supporting the breadboard's lever. Or I thought of pegs going through the entire breadboard into the longitudinal grain of the table top, glued in with tight fitting pegs. Another option was a "slip?" joint if I remember right, both ends have full dados then an accent piece slides in there and it's glued to both dados.
3. For my table legs, 3"x3" at the top, what's the MOST I can mortise into them before compromising strength? I saw in my book something about 25% of thickness for the walls of the mortise. For my M&Ts I was just going to stick the entire 2x6 in there as a tenon, so the mortise would be 2x6x1(depth) minus some width since it'll be planed . Is that too much material taken out?


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

I jotted these scribbles at work today,, trying to put my plans into action.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

ok I'm getting closer here. Found some really cool wood to use off Craigslist. It's forest fire destroyed pine that was eaten and stained by beetles. Got some for a barn door but also decided I wanted to use it for the tabletop. To save $$$ I'm no longer using pre-turned legs. I'll made the skirt and legs out of dimensional lumber (and one random length of maple I have as a support piece). 

If I want 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 square legs, is it stronger to stack up 3 2x4s, glue them up, joint the surfaces, and trim to size or just get a 4x4 and joint the surfaces for flatness?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I would use metal bracing vs wood and there are many ways to attach the table top...


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

those metal brackets don't get rickety over time?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

How so?


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

WE have tables at our clinic that are joined like that in the corners. They're wobbly once they're old and abused.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I would have to see the design of the table to understand why. The tables we make are used in chilli's. No complaints yet...


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Huh ok. Those would be easier from a time standpoint over making the corner brackets. However I like the idea of not having any metal on the table aside from the table top skirt sliders. I have to think on this. 

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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Could also be the nature of our tables as being hopped onto and off of 20x a day by normal and overweight patients. Either way...

I will be doing an epoxy coat. If I epoxy both sides will I essentially be preserving the wood so much that no warping at all will occur?

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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

OK so I've decided that I like the look and strength of a double interlocking bridle joint seen here:









I've seen these unglued as bedframes. Should I:

1. leave them unglued
2. glue them only
3. peg (from the side into the tenons) only
4. glue and peg (ultimate security)

Would the glue prevent wood movement?


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Mendozer....you've accumilated a LOT of Wworking skills since this post started 3 months ago and CHANGED the plan a whole lot especially IF you are going to accomplish those joints with beginner skills. Those would take some skill mastering to build and a NICE shop set-up with precison accuracy. BUT those are nice joints!!!! Good taste...just not what I thought of as a farm table.

Keep us posted.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello M.

I have only been following along, and as Tim has rightfully suggested, you have come a long way. You have also gotten a broad range of advice from contemporary metal fittings to make your table and now into more my world of "traditional joinery" so I thought it germane to add my two cents. 

First I recall from earlier post that your wood may have a higher than normal moisture content for such work as a table for "regular" modern woodworking methods...As such, some more reading may help, if interested. The link below can take you to the list(s) I provide students.

Green Woodworking Booklist



> I've seen these unglued as bedframes....


You may have...but it well may have been out of context, and/or other joinery at play that isn't understood. This type of joint does not have enough relish in the lap joint section to be secure for a table or a bead unless the cross sectional portions of the legs, runners and stretchers are huge...plus...other elements in the joinery as well. This is a common family of joints in Asian design modalities that I work in.



> 1. leave them unglued...4. glue and peg (ultimate security)...Would the glue prevent wood movement?


Yes, the glue would arrest movement too much and cause issues in a very short time...



> 3. peg (from the side into the tenons)


Yes, trunnel/peg could work and does in some forms of this joint but they don't go where you think they would...

Over all...this is a decorative joint, not very strong or functional at all. It is out of context for your intended application and there are severall much better traditional joints for such as you plan on building.

Regards,

j


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Another question aside from the arrangement, since my tables only 61 long, do I really need a cross piece between the long edges? I know it's needed for longer tables. Just curious. I could also dry fit the legs and skirt and see if it's sturdy enough

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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Hello M.
> 
> I have only been following along, and as Tim has rightfully suggested, you have come a long way. You have also gotten a broad range of advice from contemporary metal fittings to make your table and now into more my world of "traditional joinery" so I thought it germane to add my two cents.
> 
> ...


Oh. Well darn. So it's not as stable eh? Well I ran into some troubles considering m&t since my 4x4 leg post doesn't allow for ample tenon length and thickness

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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

mendozer said:


> Oh. Well darn. So it's not as stable eh? Well I ran into some troubles considering m&t since my 4x4 leg post doesn't allow for ample tenon length and thickness
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


Why doesn't your 4x4 allow it??? I've seen many old ones made this way that stood the test of time.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

A 4"x4" leg is large enough, and is how many traditional tables like this are made...

There are several tenon configuration suitable for a table like this, you will need all the apron boards to be at least 4" wide. 

Here is one of Garrett's articles that outlines it pretty darn well.

Jointing Legs to Aprons

Here are two more related that may offer additional insight:

Shelburne Museum square table joinery view

Mortise and Tenon in a stool


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

I guess I was banking on a thicker tenon. Like 1" of the 1 1/2" thickness of my aprons. I also was trying to avoid them touching or having too thin if a wall on the outer side of the tenon to prevent splitting.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Does it matter if the haunched side is on the top or bottom? Since I'm using a 2x4, but only plan on a 4" tall tenon, I was going to have a 90 degree cut on the bottom to make a shoulder of 1 1/2" for some stability


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Mendozer,

It would be difficult (and probably inappropriate from a structural design perspective) to move into to much detail without seeing a CAD of better Big Picture concept.

I can say, that unless you have a great deal of experience in traditional joinery, I wouldn't go to deep into "I think (thought)" concepts of...making your own joint design. This is where too many DIYer and beginners start down a slippery slope of failed joinery. Most traditional joints took centuries if not millenia to develop/evolve. It isn't a matter of assuming something will or won't happen.

The examples given thus far are..."proven to work"...traditional systems, and not a concept. Changing up a design based on notions of something without experiential historical context (or hands on experience) isn't an area I could provide good guidance on. I think I have a far amount of structural joinery experience and seldom (hardly ever) do I wonder too far from...traditional practices in joinery. The only reason my work may look extreme to some, is my pallet or repertoire of joints to select from is larger and perhaps a bit rarer in nature. 

Keep your design simple and follow as closely as possible the traditional design context and you should be in good shape. 



> Does it matter if the haunched side is on the top or bottom? Since I'm using a 2x4, but only plan on a 4" tall tenon, I was going to have a 90 degree cut on the bottom to make a shoulder of 1 1/2" for some stability...


Yes it matters...

If you follow the link to Garrett's design for this joint, you should be fine...

Sorry this post wasn't of more help...

Sketch something up and post pictures...then perhaps better feedback could be dialed in perhaps?


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Jay,

I appreciate the input. My only concern is that without the experience of much chiseling, the haunched tenon may be a stretch for my skill. For a table only 40 x 64" will that angled piece add THAT much stability from the multi-planar glue surfaces? Why would a regular tenon (with a shoulder of ample size) not be enough? I do understand that in general haunched tenons are better because of the glue surfaces.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello M.



> ..I appreciate the input. My only concern is that without the experience of much chiseling, the haunched tenon may be a stretch for my skill...


I'll tell you what I tell my students...

"...You can do it..."

Sounds simple and reality it is...Take your time, think about what you are about to do before you do it, and just trust that attempting something is better than not trying...

The wood and tool will teach you more than all the "blathering" I do in word spoken or printed...



> For a table only 40 x 64" will that angled piece add THAT much stability from the multi-planar glue surfaces?


Oooohh...Now that was a great question!!!!

Yes...in short...it addes strength and other elements as well...You can also trust, in traditional joinery with long histories, if it is in a joint...it's there for a reason. 

This harkens back to not only traditional furniture making but timber framing as well. 

*Haunching*...be it in the positive or negative geometry of a joint systems is almost always going to add a great deal of strength and/or durability to a joint...

In your case we are talking about a positive *haunching* since it adds additional wood to a tenon. An example of a *Negative Haunch* (or *Diminishing*) is tied to the old adage: "Less is more..." For example if you have a 100mm x 150mm (~4" x 6") joists...the end can be reduced to a square with an Adze and the joist is then housed in a smaller mortise which in turn take less wood out of the receiving member...Ergo: "Less is more"...More Strength and less stress to distributed members.



> Why would a regular tenon (with a shoulder of ample size) not be enough? I do understand that in general haunched tenons are better because of the glue surfaces.


Hard 90° turns in any joint are always going to be markedly weaker than a *Haunch* added to the joinery. So this is why they are added whenever at all possible... It's not just because of the glue...It's because of how the wood fibers are stressed and how those stresses are distributed within the joinery.


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Ok thanks for the helpful info and backing for it. So you would do a full 6" tenon with a haunch rather than a 4" with haunch and a 1.5 inch shoulder out of the mortise?

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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I got lost reading through the threads. I guess the design has changed. I have only made one table top, and boy was it ever heavy. All hard maple 1 1/2x38x60. It took two of us to move it around.

In fact, it was so heavy that it wasn't attached to the frame. I cut some blocks so the owner could position the frame on the top and screw the blocks to the top (from underneath), thus creating a cradle to keep the top from moving around. It has been several years and the lady still loves it!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

> So you would do a full 6" tenon with a haunch rather than a 4" with haunch and a 1.5 inch shoulder out of the mortise?


I might have lost track along the way...??...Not sure.

The point is, whether using 2x4 or 2x6 stock, I would include the Haunch. 

In this version of the joint the mean average ratio is 25% of the leg is the tenon size. So, the mortise is cut (in a 4x4) 1" in from the outer edge of the Leg. 

I'm afraid all this might be getting confusing without there being a reference drawn design to critique. Word descriptions, even for a simple joint assembly, can get very confusing...


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## mendozer (Jun 10, 2014)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I might have lost track along the way...??...Not sure.
> 
> The point is, whether using 2x4 or 2x6 stock, I would include the Haunch.
> 
> ...


That's actually exactly what I was curious about, mortise spacing. So no closer than 25% of total width. Thanks. I'll slowly get started on this and post pics

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