# Framing out a tabletop?



## Evan Michael (Jan 14, 2019)

Hello all,

I am new to the forum and am not even sure this is the correct section, sorry if it isnt. I am relatively new to woodworking, I mostly build things for friends and family. A coworker asked me to build the table in the link below, however today at work he asked about changing the measurements for the tabletop. He asked if I could "frame it" or do some sort of a "border. His wife does not really like breadboard ends and they are looking to add 2x2 border around the whole top with 45 degree mitered corners. 

Is this a common thing? What is the correct way to join this and should biscuits be used?

We are in florida so it is humid, if that makes a difference. Should I try to sell him on just changing the OAL to 88" and then adding a 2x6 in the middle thats ripped to 4" wide?

https://handmade-haven.com/blogs/woodworking/french-farmhouse-dining-table

Thanks all for the input


----------



## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

where will this table live after it is made ?? 
(outside picnic area, patio, inside in the dining room, etc.)

I am assuming you will be using lumber from the Big Box Store ??
do you have a thickness planer and jointer ??


----------



## Evan Michael (Jan 14, 2019)

Hi John,

Yes I will be using typical wood from a big box store. I don't have a jointer but I do have a wen 13" planer. It is going to be there dining room table, which actually leads me to another question. Is there a finish I can use over the stain at the end that is more of a matte finish and not as shiny? (probably off topic)


----------



## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

You can not make a border with mitered corners, not if you are making the table out of solid wood. The wood will expand and contract and the miter corners will either open up with high humidity, or close together during low humidity, which may push the side pieces apart, breaking your glue line. All this is assuming that the pieces on the ends are properly made bread board ends that allow the wood to expand and contract so the center of the table doesn’t get ripped apart as well.

If you are really interested in a table with a border and mitered corners you need to make the body of the table out of plywood.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


----------



## Evan Michael (Jan 14, 2019)

Terry Q said:


> You can not make a border with mitered corners, not if you are making the table out of solid wood. The wood will expand and contract and the miter corners will either open up with high humidity, or close together during low humidity, which may push the side pieces apart, breaking your glue line. All this is assuming that the pieces on the ends are properly made bread board ends that allow the wood to expand and contract so the center of the table doesn’t get ripped apart as well.
> 
> If you are really interested in a table with a border and mitered corners you need to make the body of the table out of plywood.
> 
> ...




That is great information, thank you. I'll have to discuss another option with him. I appreciate both your input


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That is NOT standard operating practice ......*

Wrapping all sides of a table is not "preferred" practice because the planks will want to move across the ends or width. The end piece when glued on prevents this movement and may cause cracking or buckling, Or the ends may separate and gaps will form OR they may fall off in the middle of supper.


Having said all that, I did do it myself in 2 projects for a friend: :surprise2:

https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/biscuit-joiner-project-buddy-48967/


 

This was about 5 years ago and I haven't heard any complaints yet. Hey Walt, how's it looking these days? 



There are several ways you could do this and maybe get away with it. Attach the ends with loose or floating tenons so they aren't mechanically attached or glued on, except in the center. 



Use a half lap joint like I did and let the joint slide on the lap by elongating a screw hole on the bottom, unseen.


Use a mortise and tenon on the ends of the side/long pieces which allows the end pieces to move just a bit. It won't have a mitered picture frame look, however. 



OR glue it all on and see waht happens ..... :vs_OMG:


----------



## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

Evan - it is sounding like this particular project may be
beyond your current skill set. not to sound too harsh,
but it may be in your best interest to pass on this particular
project until you gain more experience in general woodworking
with joinery, fasteners, adhesives, types of wood and how 
wood behaves in different environments.
one thing at a time . . . . once you get a project completely built, 
then post another thread on what finish would be appropriate for it.

if you wanted to practice on a table of this design, it would make a 
very nice picnic table to be used on a covered patio. then, you would
expect to see the cracks and splits in the wood that goes with construction
grade lumber without getting all upset with it.

another option is to ensure the customer fully understands that Box Store
lumber will not provide the best results for dining room furniture.

wishing you all the best in all your endeavors.

.

.


----------



## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Learn about the material you will use FIRST! Wood moves a lot more across the grain than with (lengthwise.) There have been some good suggestions especially about allowing the bread board ends to move independently from the rest of the top. The result will be either the BB ends looking too short or too long. Some cleaver designs can conceal that effect. See Greene & Greene furniture, Google!

If any of you are going to be in the Pasadena, CA area be sure to visit the Gamble house. A Greene & Greene master piece complete with original furniture. Google it.

I'm not a fan of plywood for tops but MDF is a reasonably stable substrate.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Evan Michael said:


> ...... I am relatively new to woodworking, I mostly build things for friends and family. A coworker asked me to build the table....................He asked if I could "frame it" or do some sort of a "border...............t


if you are new enough to ask this question, I seriously suggest passing up on this table.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Tony B said:


> if you are new enough to ask this question, I seriously suggest passing up on this table.


Sage advice, tables are complicated, there is much to understand in building one, just browse through some of the past posts here and you will find many tales of woe.


----------



## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Evan,

I teach woodworking, and also do it professionally so the last thing I want to do is sound discouraging or dissuade you from the desire to build this table...

HOWEVER...as just about everyone thus far has gathered from your questions (and that link for the table in question)...*I would advise against it, at least in the context you are probably thinking about building it...*

I will try to highlight some reasoning for this (from my perspectives) and again, this isn't to discourage but to bring the project down to a reality and scope of understanding that may be perhaps more realistic...

I will validate, I don't like seeing "new woodworkers" starting off not learning the tradtional methods first and the understanding of wood from this perspective. I own completely that is my bias as a woodworker and a teacher both, but I personally see way to many folks cutting corners and not learning the basic properly first...

On that note...t*hat table from the link*....???...It's kind of "Fake" to say the least about it...Me personally, I don't do "faux" or "knock off" styling of any kind.

If your friend actually wants a "Farm Table" in the actual vernacular sense and style of it, I'm all for that and excited to help you out, but that "glued together" and "fake joinery" thing in the link is not "good practice" in furniture building from my (biased yes!) perceptive.

I have seen almost the same French Farm table built almost just like it with braced trestle that looked great...and...was built with actual functional (and proven) joinery systems...as it has been done for centuries and longer...

I would also note that such tables can (and are) often built (as in history) from very green and rough lumber. These are tables of the Farmer and Peasant of many cultures, they needed a place to work and share a meal with there families. They usually had limited tools and limited time to get things done, so the tree was selected, dropped, riven and/or hewn and the table made...From my perspective (again I work almost exclusively from the traditional perspective) that is where to begin...With a local Sawyer, and not a Big Box store...

Again, that's my bias, and there is a balance and mixing of styles that are possible too...



Evan Michael said:


> ...His wife does not really like breadboard ends and they are looking to add 2x2 border around the whole top with 45 degree mitered corners...Is this a common thing? What is the correct way to join this and should biscuits be used?


*Mitered corners are an extremely common thing*...(sorry Terry Q. and others)...but it is way outside the context of what you would do for this style table (typically) and I would suggest way outside the scope of your skill sets...

The photos below will illustrate the style, and if you think you could make the joinery with hand tools, then I'm mistaken and you know more than I thought...???...If not, I would never recommend these (like Terry Q. was suggesting correctly) for anyone that doesn't have the ability to "read wood"...understand species selection...have the ability to design and implement joinery properly and a plethora of other skill sets that come with such woodworking methods...
































































Please don't be discouraged!

Folks here truly do want to help, everyone of them in my experience, and we all come from different backgrounds...So take a step back and think about what you want your woodworking to be all about, and what you want to learn...

Good Luck...


----------

