# hollow and round makers...



## judgment (May 22, 2014)

I've just started looking into hollow and rounds. I've noticed that there seems to be an extremely wide range of pricing. For example, you can get a set of 6 matched H&R moulding planes from Lee Valley for $250.00. The same sizes from MS Bickford would probably cost a couple thousand bucks.

I don't know anything about either of these guys, but they both have pretty good advertising copy. 

To those of you who would know what you are looking at, can you help me figure out why one of these planes is roughly 10x more useful than the other?


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Lee Valley/Veritas has a serious reputation. Far and away better than any big box hardware outfit you could name. Their periodic "Free Shipping" helps a lot, living in a little mountain village!

Don't know the other guys.

Step one is to be certain that you can get all the suitable woods that you need.
Without the wood, there are some kinds of wood carving that I would still never be able to do.
When you said 'hollows,' I imagined that you wanted to get into spoons and bowls with elbow adzes and crooked knives, as I do.


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

The Asian hollow & round planes that LV offers are made in China, for starters. Also, I believe the irons are bedded at 45 degrees. 

I'd love some brand new, hand-made English style moulding planes like MS Bickford's, but who the hell can afford that??? 

I've had pretty good luck buying vintage moulding planes on eBay; I've bought probably 18 or so with only one totally un-usable dud. You really have to be careful what you buy, though. Do your homework first so you know what you're looking for; most sellers have absolutely no idea what they are selling so you can rarely trust their descriptions. 

Make sure the iron matches the body profile & the mouth hasn't been cut/filed wide open. Heavy pitting on the iron is bad news, as are cracks/checks/warping in the body. If there aren't enough pics to determine the condition, pass it up. Trust me lol


Sent from my iPhone using woodworkingtalk.com


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

First off, Bickford's planes are top notch. All hand made, fitted, tested and tuned.

I can not speak for the LV option as I have not played with them.

This is a bit of an apples and oranges debate however. Bickford makes Side Escapement (British style) Planes as opposed the almost Krenov looking Japanese style planes offered by LV. 

It takes more skill and time to make the former. LV's planes would be relatively easy to mass produce explaining the considerable difference in pricing. I, like many others, feel that British planemakers of the 18th century were at THE pinnacle of technology and development. The designs coming out of this area and period have proven to be pretty darn bullet proof and well worth emulating. 

I use, almost exclusively, vintage / antique planes mainly for nostalgia but also for budget. I have made side escapement moulding planes so I have a good handle on tuning them which helps considerably when going the vintage route.

In debating which one YOU need I unfortunately can not say one is better than the other for YOUR needs. I would be somewhat cautious of the LV planes simply because I have not had the opportunity to play around with them. I am comfortable with my mix of vintage American and British H&R planes and know how they behave how to use them efficiently so I stick with those. 

It would seem, visually speaking, that the LV planes should perform most moulding task expected for H&Rs - and I assume that is your goal. You will still require a pair of snipes and a plough to really seriously undertake moulding work.

If you feel you can successfully rehab vintage, then go that route gently by buying a few and giving it a try. Matched sets are nice, particularly for occasional misc joinery task but not a must. The numbering systems from one plane maker to another do not always match up but this is how the sizing goes:

The profile of the sole is 1/6th of the given circumference size. The difference from one number to the next, say a 6 to a 7, is typically 1/8".

http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/Sizing.htm
Has a good rundown on sizing information and can be used to figure what ballpark size number plane you are bidding on or purchasing. 

Also, even if you don't buy his planes you should really consider buying Bickford's book on moulding and/or possibly his DVD. It will simplify the technique very well.

Good luck!


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

MS Bickford makes top end tools, and charges accordingly.

The ones being sold by Lee Valley... well, they're not bad.

My girlfriend bought me a pair of the 1/4" ones from Lee Valley. I'll do a full write up some time soonish. They're made my Mujingfang, who are building a reputation for reasonable quality at low prices. They're not the best, not by a long shot, but they're cheap and they work. The pair I got were reasonably sharp, and the back of the blade was reasonably flat. The wedges fit well, and the irons bed down pretty tightly.

There's one major difference between the Mujingfang planes and... well, pretty much all Western hollows and rounds. The Mujingfang planes have a flat on either side of the convex piece of the rounds, which means there's a defined limit to how they can be used: you can't make a groove deeper than the convex part, period. Most of the Western planes I've seen don't have that: they generally taper, which means that you can get at least a little bit deeper, and there's no restriction on what angle you can work at. For making mouldings, it will probably never matter to you. 

These also aren't great with harder woods: The ones I got, with very little honing, worked fine on pine out of the box. They barely worked at all on red oak, though poplar seemed OK. It's possible that with further honing and cleanup they'd work better: the irons are definitely a little bit rough, though quite useable. It may in large part be the bedding angle: I didn't measure, but it does seem pretty low.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

I've been thinking about getting into some H&Rs sometime. I had read this a while back about the LV ones, which would honestly probably be where I'd start given the price: 

http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/treasures-from-the-far-east.html

As per the author's comments below, if you find you really enjoy it a lot then perhaps spending more on a fancier set would be in order. I'll be interested to hear Andy's review.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm about 80% done with the review... I need to cut some new samples and take photos, but hopefully I'll be able to post the review in the next couple of days.

Short version, they're decent, but a little weird, and I'm planning to try making my own, so I probably won't buy more. For details, you'll have to wait for the full version of the review.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

amckenzie4 said:


> I'm about 80% done with the review... I need to cut some new samples and take photos, but hopefully I'll be able to post the review in the next couple of days.
> 
> Short version, they're decent, but a little weird, and I'm planning to try making my own, so I probably won't buy more. For details, you'll have to wait for the full version of the review.



I've been looking through your old posts for review and haven't found them yet... Do you have a link or something?


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 23, 2010)

Before you consider buying the Lee Valley H&R's you may want to determine just what it is you are going to make. As previously stated the lack of the iron extending to the edge of the plane is very limiting, which means you will not be able to make a great many moulding profiles. 

My opinion with regard as what to buy- 

Lee Valley- are inexpensive and will do simple edge work but are very limiting and will likely lead to poor work habits.

Vintage planes- are a gamble and will require work. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot and sometimes they are fire starters.

New planes- are by far more expensive to buy, but work as intended from the moment you receive them. The wood bodies are the correct size and have not shrunk over the decades. 

Make your own- I started to make one and quickly determined that it was more cost effective to pursue my day job and buy them.


I started with vintage planes. Ended up buying two full sets to come up with one full set that worked and spent a great deal of time getting them there. From there I bought a half set from Clark & Williams, then a pair snipe bills, side rounds & rabbets from Matt Bickford. While I can get the vintage planes to produce mouldings it takes more time and effort since the sizes are no longer exact. 

Given that you are just starting to explore the use of moulding planes I would encourage you to first get Matt Bickford's DVD and/or book. If you decide to go with the british plane style determine the scale of the work you most commonly do and get ONE pair of planes. Most furniture work can be don with just a few sizes.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

For those who expressed interest: my more complete review is here, at Cheap Sawdust. I ran into some technical issues (a complex issue, which can be summarized as "I forgot to charge my camera battery for a long time and now it's dead") so there are no photos, but the text is up, anyway.


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