# Plane restore round 3



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I just got a pair of No 4 planes for parts from an EBay auction, but may end up restoring.
I have a No 5 parts planes in transit. I will then be able to complete the earlier rust bucket thread. The earlier No 5 needs Y lever, adjustment wheel and tote toe screw.

This is what the latest pair of No 4 planes look like after I unpacked this morning.

The only identification is New York Toolworks on the blade and above this an arc with two 0, one at each end.

There is no frog adjustment and it has a small brass adjustment lever.

There is a slight chamfer around the screw hole on the lever cap. Unusual, looks like the original design.









The components. Lateral adjustment lever is folded over, similar to Sargent. Note the badly damaged blade edge. I wonder if this was ever sharpened. I do not know how such a damaged blade could be used. Looks like it has been trying to plane nails or metal.









This is a Stanley No 4. I have not tried to find the Type yet. I has the straight hole, large brass adjustment knob and a single patent date behind the frog, which has an adjustment screw.

A typical rust bucket. Broken tote and foot of the knob, all too common. At present the adjustment screw is frozen. Should be possible to free up.









The components, I thought nothing unusual until I looked at the blade.









Some person who does not understand hand planes had the bevel in line with the cap iron, which is backwards. A first for me to observe. :laughing:









Thanks for looking. Stay tuned for updates.

I appreciate if anyone has any insights on New York Toolworks. I did not find anything with a quick internet search. May have been one of the many companies which have come and gone over the decades.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

the iron on the #5 i got at the antique store was also set up like that. 

and planes were new to me at the time, so i didn't know it was wrong.

now i know.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Update*

I have Stanley taken apart. Happy to find no metal parts broken, just the expected knob and tote. All parts have been cleaned and starting with Evapo-Rust.

I then looked to sharpen the badly damaged NYT blade.

After wet-dry sanding, I can make out that what I thought was an arc is actually a ships wheel, the "0" 's are the handles.

Not the best lighting but you can make out two at the top, one on the left and two on the bottom.









I removed most of the damage with a belt sander. This was not difficult.

I then put the blade in my jig and started with my Atoma diamond plate.

As I stated to get a good edge, I noticed the edge crumbled. This is hand honing. No heat, no impact.

Not easy to make out but the small ding in the middle is from the original damage. The dings on the right half are where the edge feel away.

At this point the more I hone, the more I lose parts of the edge. Bummer. :thumbdown:

The filings seem to be finer and more grey than the Stanley blades I have sharpened.

I am feeling this is a very soft iron and not worth investing any more time.









I am not sure if I want to replace the blade. 
This may become a parts plane, although I am seeing some parts which are different than Stanley, so this may have been a complete waste of time and money. There are no guarantees with no-name planes. :thumbdown:


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I've seen that logo before Dave. You may have solve a previous mystery. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/41199


See some New York tool history I've posted if your interested Dave, http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24091

I hope you don't mind, I stole your picture?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

timetestedtools said:


> I've seen that logo before Dave. You may have solve a previous mystery. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/41199


Wow, very interesting. Thanks for letting me know. I am happy if my post adds to our collective knowledge. :thumbsup:

Thinking overnight, the blade either is too soft or the 1/8in I had to remove took off the tempered part of the blade.

I may try heat treating the blade. This would be another learning curve, but not much to loose.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Dave Paine said:


> ...
> so this may have been a complete waste of time and money.
> ...


I don't know, Dave. If you cleaned it up as nice as some of the other restorations I have seen from you, I bet you could sell it.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

timetestedtools said:


> I've seen that logo before Dave. You may have solve a previous mystery. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/41199
> 
> 
> See some New York tool history I've posted if your interested Dave, http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol/blog/24091
> ...


Thanks for the link.

Happy to make a small contribution.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> I don't know, Dave. If you cleaned it up as nice as some of the other restorations I have seen from you, I bet you could sell it.


I know that there are far worse planes being sold on EBay.

I would not be happy selling a plane whose blade was not able to be sharpened. I would have to find someone who only wants this for display.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I understand. You could just mention that the iron seems soft and should probably be replaced if they intend to put into service.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Dave, can you see any lines where the hardened steel would be welded towards the bevel of the iron? this is usually really obvious after evaporust but not so much after sanding and almost invisible after polishing. 

Most plane irons of that vintage would be folded with tempered steel, there is no telling for far up that woul have gone on this brand though.

Don, going check out your link right now!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

firemedic said:


> Dave, can you see any lines where the hardened steel would be welded towards the bevel of the iron? this is usually really obvious after evaporust but not so much after sanding and almost invisible after polishing.
> 
> Most plane irons of that vintage would be folded with tempered steel, there is no telling for far up that woul have gone on this brand though.
> 
> Don, going check out your link right now!


I know what that type of line looks like. I have seen this on some of the other restore plane blades. I later read about the manufacturer pressing a piece of hardened steel on top of the blade steel.

I can still see this after sharpening at the higher grits. It just takes the right angle of light.

The present grit is too coarse. I may go to higher grit just to confirm.

I cannot tell how much metal has been removed over time.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

It's not unusual for planes to be cobbled together from an assortment of parts. It may be done by the Ebay seller or previous owners. You have to develop an eye for what you see on Ebay. You can't tell if the sole is flat but with experience you can see most other things. If a plane doesn't have 10 bidders, it's questionable and probably not worth whatever price. There are a lot of knowledgeable buyers on Ebay and if they don't want it, maybe you shouldn't either. It means you will pay more but you will often get something worth your time and not a junker.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

On the bevel side of the iron... Left side, is that a hairline crack? Does it go all the way through? Reason enough not to use the iron but if it doesn't go through to the other side that would imply it's likely a laminated iron with some hardened steel left.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

firemedic said:


> On the bevel side of the iron... Left side, is that a hairline crack? Does it go all the way through? Reason enough not to use the iron but if it doesn't go through to the other side that would imply it's likely a laminated iron with some hardened steel left.


Wow Jean, a very good eye. :thumbsup:

I had not looked hard at the iron. I just did so an that is a crack going all the way through the blade. Under my 10x magnifying glass not so much of a hairline, it looks big.

Good reason to retire the iron if I decide to restore the plane. Just useful to document the heritage.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Dave Paine said:


> Wow Jean, a very good eye. :thumbsup:
> 
> I had not looked hard at the iron. I just did so an that is a crack going all the way through the blade. Under my 10x magnifying glass not so much of a hairline, it looks big.
> 
> Good reason to retire the iron if I decide to restore the plane. Just useful to document the heritage.


Based on Don's link the plane is older than I initially guessed but it may still be laminated in a L configuration - meaning the crack doesn't proof a lack of lamination.

Absolutely essential to document the findings. It answered Don's puzzle about his friend block plane and we all learned something!

Carry on, my friend.


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

A good practice Dave is to set the original blade aside with a tag on it so you remember which plane it went with. Then you can use it, but if you decide to part with it, you can still maintain the historical value.

And I collect all Ohio tools planes I acquire, so after this little tidbit of information, I'll be looking for the New York Tool also. Let me know if you ever decide to part with it.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Hammer1 said:


> It's not unusual for planes to be cobbled together from an assortment of parts. It may be done by the Ebay seller or previous owners. You have to develop an eye for what you see on Ebay. You can't tell if the sole is flat but with experience you can see most other things. If a plane doesn't have 10 bidders, it's questionable and probably not worth whatever price. There are a lot of knowledgeable buyers on Ebay and if they don't want it, maybe you shouldn't either. It means you will pay more but you will often get something worth your time and not a junker.


I understand. I went into this auction with eyes open. My intent was to get parts planes.

When I got these, the NYT seemed to be a good condition, except for the bad edge on the blade. Finding the blade to be cracked is just one of the risks of buying on EBay. The seller did not mis-represent.

The good part about this post is finding out a little more about the New York Toolworks, and Don providing a link to an earlier mystery on the ships wheel logo.

The Stanley No. 4 is going to restore well. The casting is in Evapo-Rust. The front edge has some dings, a couple of rust pits, but the jappaning is almost intact. The blade edge is dull, but will sharpen. The top of the blade is pitted. No surprise, that is to be expected, but the picture on EBay showed the condition.

I am amazed at the bids on some of these planes. People seem to get into bidding frenzy.

Today I received my other parts plane auction. A No. 5 with cracked bed.

I would likely have passed on these planes, but the selection of screws and nuts I really wanted went for far too much money. Same happened for a frog I wanted for its parts. Crazy prices far more than taking a chance on a plane.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*I think there was a lamination*

I decided to polish the edge, just out of curiosity.

I will not be able to take a picture but with only going as far as 600 grit and looking at the edge with my 10x magnifying glass, I think I am seeing a lamination.

In my other irons where I see this the lamination is shinier.

The very tip of the edge is shinier, perhaps only 1/64in.

This would explain why I started to see the edge crumble as the honing consumed more of the lamination. Another mystery solved.

I also polished one side towards the front. Again the tip is the same shiny front portion as I see on the front edge.

I think the amount of metal I had to remove consumed almost all of the lamination.

This explains why the colour of the filings changed.

A good learning, even if the iron is not usable, due to the crack and lack of lamination. Not an expensive lesson, but I feel valuable.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*The Stanley No 4 restoration*

The New York Toolworks plane was sent onto Timetestedtools to become part of his Ohio Tool Company collection.

So I then turned to working on the Stanley No 4. This one did not restore as easily as some of the others.

More components needed to be replaced than my other rust bucket restorations. This is just the luck of the draw. Some things we can see, some things we only find out about later.

The knob and tote were both broken.

I decided to recycle a knob and tote from my No 3 user. I will make nice replacements for these. They were not cracked, but the finish needed to be removed.

After sanding I applied a coat of dewaxed shellac, then a coat of Tru-Oil.

Both totes are Stanley, but this shows how the shape either evolved over the years, or varied slightly from the factory.









The cleaned up components. The jappaning is mostly intact.

The left rear lost a piece of the casting, likely by being dropped at some point.

The blade and cap iron was pitted. I decided to replace the cap iron with one from a N0 5 parts plane. Turns out the replacement is shorter so the blade pitting shows where the old cap iron ended.









The sole was lapped sufficient to be flat in the area in front of the mouth. The front edge has a lot of pitting. I did not want to lap to remove the pitting, I felt it would have made the sole too thin.









The completed plane after setting the blade and making the first set of nice fluffy shavings. The back of the blade has a deep pit which prevents the blade from making a full width shaving. I would have to remove almost 1/8in of the hardened edge to get rid of this. I decided to leave the pit alone and to be removed over time with future sharpenings.









The original as-received plane for a side-by-side comparison.









Thanks for looking.

My next restoration is a No 7. This did not look to be in bad shape, but the front knob was painted red, so I have to see if this can be cleaned off, or whether I need to make a new knob. 

Presently in transit. The seller stated it was shipped, but I do not have a tracking number so hoping I get this sometime this week.


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I cleaned up the New York tool. Here it is now











































And with the Ohio Tools extended family









Thanks again Dave.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

timetestedtools said:


> I cleaned up the New York tool. Here it is now
> 
> And with the Ohio Tools extended family
> 
> Thanks again Dave.


Nice job on the cleanup, this puppy now has a shine and especially good company. 

Thanks for the pictures. :thumbsup: 

Happy to see this have a "forever" home, as the dog rescues say. :laughing:


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