# Submerged logs for wood



## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

Okay, I popped over here from contractor talk with a question you may be able to help me with.
I have been building a few docks and have had a number of people ask me about removing trees from the lake.
These are trees that were here when the lake was flooded back in 1965.
I have started the research process and one of the questions I have is....what are the logs good for?
I hear they can be valuable for woodworkers as the water has stopped and de-composition as well as the logs likely being older growth.

Is there a market for this? Any input would be helpful....thanks in advance


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Well, they may be old growth trees with big diameters. They could be worth big bucks. However they have to be removed from the lake, milled to usable sizes, ends sealed and stickered to dry for a few years. Then the wood may have to go through a kiln for drying to 8% moisture content or so.

An important issue here is, are these trees hardwood and worth the effort. I don't think that conifer trees would be worth the salvage effort.

It probably be possible to leave the wood stickered for natural air drying perhaps 5 years, and get all the moisture out depending on where you live.

So the questions are:

Do you have the money to invest in immediate removal and milling?

Do you have the place to store the wood for air drying? In the back yard protected from the elements would probably OK.

Do you think that the hardwood market in 5 years is going to make your investment pay off?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Just my $.02... 1965 while, well awhile ago, does not mean old growth. They could be, just by coincidence. I mean I have milled logs from fresh cut trees that are 200+ years old from neighboring towns/farms. So the whole age thing is up in the air.

I will have to disagree with rrich on a couple points. I know guys who make a living retrieving sunken conifers and milling them (sinker cypress and heart pine) But they did sink 100 years ago and where cut from old growth forests. And it will only take a year, or less, to air dry the lumber if you chose that (assuming we are talking 1" thick) Or they could be turned around in a kiln in several weeks.

Unfortunately this is probably a case by case deal (or log by log) some may be worth the effort and others not. To agree with rrich on what I disagreed :huh:, the hardwoods should be worth more.

MOST importantly you need to check with the local authorities if this is public land...many states have very strict laws about removing "habitat logs"...it's poaching and can get you in a whole mess of trouble and your butt fined off. If indeed this is not privately owned some states require permits for such salvage operations and are in your pocket and your way the whole time :icon_rolleyes:. So like I said I would look into that end FIRST.


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## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.
I would be cutting the old trees down about 8' below surface. I would be getting paid for this and the re-use of lumber would be for additional income.....if it is a viable option.
I was hoping to have it hauled to a lot for temporary storage.

Ironically, the water authority that owns the lake doesn't care what you do as long as you don't make the lake smaller.....this is Texas and rules are not in vogue. :boat:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Submerged logs in Texas eh. I've been under the impression most species here don't last long in warm water, with a few notable exceptions. 

Those mega-buck Fiddleback Maple logs that made national news some years ago were in the great lakes. Deep. 

If the logs are water resistant they'll be fine, but not worth any more than the same species on terra firma. 

Just curious, what lake is it or if you don;t want to say, what part of the state you in?


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## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

TexasTimbers said:


> Submerged logs in Texas eh. I've been under the impression most species here don't last long in warm water, with a few notable exceptions.
> 
> Those mega-buck Fiddleback Maple logs that made national news some years ago were in the great lakes. Deep.
> 
> ...


Not a problem. Houston County lake in East Texas. Below water line they are as pristine as ever. The only reason I asked is I read "somewhere" searching around about how they built craft projects out of this fine wood.......unless I dreamed it:blink:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> ..unless I dreamed it:blink:


No salvage logs _are_ prized in some cases...but it's the water conditions (or soil conditions for the "bog logs") that make the ones you hear about. Like TT mentioned cold-deep water with little oxygen to support degrade in the Great Lakes. Or like the guys I mentioned, they are in the "water" (shallow and warm at that) but most often covered in a protective layer of silt/sand since they are laying down.

I'm gonna have to go with my old standby advice...Hey, try one and see :detective: I would just for kicks, 'course I have my own mill and all, but you should be able to find one close pretty easy.


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## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

Daren said:


> No salvage logs _are_ prized in some cases...but it's the water conditions (or soil conditions for the "bog logs") that make the ones you hear about. Like TT mentioned cold-deep water with little oxygen to support degrade in the Great Lakes. Or like the guys I mentioned, they are in the "water" (shallow and warm at that) but most often covered in a protective layer of silt/sand since they are laying down.
> 
> I'm gonna have to go with my old standby advice...Hey, try one and see :detective: I would just for kicks, 'course I have my own mill and all, but you should be able to find one close pretty easy.


I have to get rid of them somehow so I'll have to take a look when I get to one. Of course...that is if this thing seems to be practical in the long run. It will keep me off the streets if nothing else!!!

Thanks


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Do any of you watch that show on the History Channel about logging? They have that outfit S & S Logging on there and all they do, or try to do, is harvest submersed logs. The logs they get up and open are very nice looking on TV, and they say its sediment deposit. However, I do not know this for sure and the guys on that show from that outfit are absolute morons. In fact, one of the main reasons I watch the show is to laugh (or yell) at their stupidity! That and to ogle the trees being harvested. I know that doesn't help, but I have been itching for a reason to mention them and see if anyone else watches and thinks they are as dangerous to themselves as I do.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I tried to watch one entire "Ax Men" series a couple years ago when it came out but I couldn't get through it. I agree with you. Shows like that are not representitive of the real world. I don't count myself among elite professional loggers by a long shot, but the guys on those shows aren't worthy to wipe my butt when it comes to logging and I do it solo.


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

I've been up to one of those salvage operations in Ashland, WI - Suprior Logging.

The main selling point, in addition to the historical aspect, is the tight growth rings - something you just don't see nowadays. But these were true "old growth" logs - from forests that were never cut before. They were harvested anywhere from 100 to 150 or so years ago. The tight growth rings are a result of the very slow growth of those trees. The forests back then were a dark, canopy-like affair. Trees didn't propogated well in the limited light, so you ended up with a bunch of really freakin' big trees that had grown very slow. The mature trees they were cutting could have been 200 years old at the time.

In fact the reason that they sank were that they were so dense that they barely floated and absorbing a little water would send them to the bottom. The bacteria free water preserved then well.

But trees cut in 1965?....I kinda doubt they'd look much different that logs harvested now.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> I would be getting paid for this and the re-use of lumber would be for additional income.....if it is a viable option.


This is how I am looking at it. I agree with TexasTimbers and Boardman the lumber is probably not going to bring the premium that the old growth sinkers like we have been kicking around in the discussion do...But if you are getting paid to remove them, you are going to have to do _something_ with them. No sense just piling them and burning them or whatever means you had in mind of "disposal". I would mill it (assuming it is still sound and millable) and sell it right back to the people who live around the lake :yes:. I already gave my $.02...now I have a total of $.04 invested in your salvage operation...does that make me a partner :laughing:


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## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

Daren said:


> This is how I am looking at it. I agree with TexasTimbers and Boardman the lumber is probably not going to bring the premium that the old growth sinkers like we have been kicking around in the discussion do...But if you are getting paid to remove them, you are going to have to do _something_ with them. No sense just piling them and burning them or whatever means you had in mind of "disposal". I would mill it (assuming it is still sound and millable) and sell it right back to the people who live around the lake :yes:. I already gave my $.02...now I have a total of $.04 invested in your salvage operation...does that make me a partner :laughing:


Your in! If I could just get 4 million more like you I could sit back and watch it all happen.:yes:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Man I need a piece of this action. How can I participate without having to risk any of my time, treasure, or talent? :stuart:

Copus I don't know if anyone has reminded you yet but we have to have pictures no matter how well or how bad you think the wood turned out. If you think it can get tough over on CT, we utilize voodoo dolls for those who do not post pictures. Hang on I'm gonna give you a little test stick . . . . . did you feel that earlier while you were eating lunch? I stuck your left butt cheek with a sewing needle at 12:27. Did you flinch? :icon_cheesygrin:


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## John in Tennessee (Jun 11, 2008)

There is a logger in Oregon I think..That is slightly off base on the History Channel.. It's a riot watching this guy. However The wood he gets is really great looking. We won't talk about him building a boat that won't go under a bridge,


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## copusbuilder (Sep 15, 2009)

TexasTimbers said:


> Man I need a piece of this action. How can I participate without having to risk any of my time, treasure, or talent? :stuart:
> 
> Copus I don't know if anyone has reminded you yet but we have to have pictures no matter how well or how bad you think the wood turned out. If you think it can get tough over on CT, we utilize voodoo dolls for those who do not post pictures. Hang on I'm gonna give you a little test stick . . . . . did you feel that earlier while you were eating lunch? I stuck your left butt cheek with a sewing needle at 12:27. Did you flinch? :icon_cheesygrin:


I just woke from a long nap. I had been severely constipated for weeks and as luck would have it.....during lunch as I was eating my Little Debbie snack cake....kaboom, the sky opened...sort of speak.

Now what were you saying? 
It may be a while but I will post photos. Still working on a rig that will work....I am hoping to eliminate the need for a diver.

OMG........It was you! Thanks a lot man.:thumbsup:


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## dirtclod (May 7, 2008)

I agree with what has already been said. But I repeat some of it in my own words. Finding old growth trees in 1965 wasn't much easier than it is now. Your area is probably no different than around here in the almost all of the old growth trees were removed by early in the last century.

I would be very careful here. Even though the water athority may have given you their blessing, they may not be the proper authority. There's such a thing as jelously to worry about - when you're seen gathering all those envious logs, there's a chance someone could turn you in.

Why stop at 8' below the water line? Why not get the whole thing? The deepest water will provide better protection and tht's also where the bole is.

This form of logging is known as deadheading and is also common in warmer areas such as Florida rivers where they harvest cypress logs.

ACP, I've watched those characters. It made me sick at my stomach. I didn't see them do one thing right the first time. They seemed to destroy a lot and I don't know how they got that far in life without killing themselves or others around them. On top of that the main one in charge has a sever personality problem.


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