# New Steel City TS Probably Defective



## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

...and there was a great sadness througout the land...

Wanted to bounce this off you guys to see what you think.

Not a good weekend. Spent all day Saturday cleaning out the garage to make room/working room for my new TS. Spent all day Sunday putting it together but ran into a huge problem.

I bought a brand new Steel City 35990C table saw through Lowe’s online and picked it up at my local Lowe’s. Box did not appear to be damaged in any way. Box was strapped to a skid. 

The instructions (which weren't in the box, had to print from online) were absolutely useless. But I took my time and got it assembled with minimal hassle. Up until the point where you put the left/right extension wings/tables on. The problem is with the left extension wing. There are two problems with it, actually. 


No matter how I turn the four adjustment screws, I cannot get the extension table level with the main saw table. There’s a deviation of roughly 1/16” no matter what you do. I’m checking for level with a steel straight edge. 
Also, no matter how I turn the adjustment screws, or try to pull the wing outward before tightening the screws that hold the wing on, the slot for the miter gauge is way too tight and the gauge barely will fit into the T-slot, let alone move freely. There is no problem with the right extension table or miter gauge track at all. 
I stopped assembly at this point because there is no point in proceeding if I’ve got a bad unit. I think there may be a manufacturing defect with either the left extension wing or the left side of the saw body, though the cabinet itself is square and sits plumb on the floor. The wing fits down onto the alignment pegs with no problem but that’s as far as it gets towards “fits right.” Of course it's possible that I made a mistake, but really don't think I did being that the right wing went on easily and perfectly and there's nothing wrong with it.

I realize this isn't a $4K saw, I’m pretty disappointed that an $800 saw has what seems to be such a major defect.

I emailed Steel City customer service yesterday. Hopefully I hear back from them today. I'm thinking I'm going to have to return it to Lowes which will be a huge PITA, especially considering I had to destroy the box and styrofoam to get the big pieces out. They were embedded in the styrofoam and they staple the box together around that. You have to cut it all up to get anything out.

Thanks for reading and for your thoughts.

Mike D


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Cast iron can flex a little, and sometimes requires "coaxing" to level up the wings....not unusual. Sometimes they simply need to be shimmed to be level, other times they need more persuasion with a few gentle thumps with a dead blow or rubber mallet. Depending on what the deviation is, maybe you can start by getting one edge leveled up, putting a C-clamp on it to help hold, then proceed along the line by loosening the nearest bolt slightly, applying some persuasion, and retightening the bolt. Some trial and error and patience involved.

Not sure what to make of the miter slot...is the miter slot part of the seam between the wing and main table on this saw, or is it fully cut in the main table? Do the edge of the table and edge of the wing look smooth with no burrs? (not unusual to have to remove a burr). I've had a couple slots that required some mild sanding with a block, but if it's off by a lot that won't do it. Are there specific left and right wings designated or are they interchangeable?

It can be upsetting, but sometimes things like this are part of the initial setup. If the wing is miscut, they can send a new wing without having to replace the whole saw. I'd hate to see you have to return the whole saw if there are other options. If it runs smooth and you get it aligned, I'd hate to see you return the whole thing in exchange for an unknown. 

Maybe some pics of the offending area would prod more ideas...it'd probably help Steel City's techs out too. Good luck!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*some things to check*

First lay the wings on the table top face down. See if they can be rocked which would indicate...somethin' ain't right, either the table top or the wing. Place both wings together face to face , see if they can be rocked,. If so, one other other is warped. Back to the saw top. See if they both rock or just one. 
You can try to determine "level" or "flat" with a ruler or scale, but since it's not a "plane", just a line it's difficult. Plane to plane is a better test without sophisticated measuring tools. Maybe you have a granite kitchen top or a friend has one? That would be as flat as anything you might find in the home. Place the wings on that and see if there is daylight or if they can be rocked.

As far as this experience, the wings on my $3500 Powermatic had to be replaced, since they/one was warped. Cast iron cures over time and if it was machined "green", before the stresses were settled in, it may warp. 

Let's assume one wing or the table IS warped, now what? If the return policy means bringing it back to the store, don't worry about the packaging, it's not your problem fault. Go online and search for problems with that model saw. Lowes should handle the situation without getting the manufacturer involved. They should make it right, and probably will.  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

knotscott said:


> Cast iron can flex a little, and sometimes requires "coaxing" to level up the wings....not unusual. Sometimes they simply need to be shimmed to be level, other times they need more persuasion with a few gentle thumps with a dead blow or rubber mallet. Depending on what the deviation is, maybe you can start by getting one edge leveled up, putting a C-clamp on it to help hold, then proceed along the line by loosening the nearest bolt slightly, applying some persuasion, and retightening the bolt. Some trial and error and patience involved.
> 
> Not sure what to make of the miter slot...is the miter slot part of the seem on this saw, or is it fully cut in the main table? Do the edge of the table and edge of the wing look smooth with no burrs? (not unusual to have to remove a burr). I've had a couple slots that required some mild sanding with a block, but if it's off by a lot that won't do it. Are there specific left and right wings designated or are they interchangeable?
> 
> ...


+1. :yes:












 







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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Wow, I wasn't expecting such fast replies! Thanks much, guys! If this happened on a *$3,000!!!* table saw, the entire state of Texas would've heard me screaming...probably up to Oklahoma, too. But in a sick way, it is comforting to hear that a $3K saw had similar probs...and I feel guilty that it's comforting. LOL!

I didn't think to lay the bad wing face-to-face on the other wings and try the "rock test". I was too busy rocking my straight edge back and forth and twisting wrenches like a hyper-active spider monkey. I don't have granite counter tops, but I'm pretty sure the right wing is good. I will do the rock test when I get home tonight. Wish I'd have thought of that last night...I'll bet Steel City will recommend it as well.

Not positive on the burr question. I cleaned and waxed the tables, including the miter slots. I don't recall the rags "catching" on anything, but that's worth checking out. I know there were a few smalls burrs on the outside edges of the tables b/c I cut my hand on one of them. Nothing like getting a little blood into your work, huh? Will check out the miter slot area. Thanks.

The miter slot is formed when you marry the the wing up against the main table. Half the slot is cut in each piece. No prob w/the right wing. It went on easy, bolts went right in, no prob with miter slot. As from the factory, the right wing is probably 1/32" off level, but easy enough to fix w/the adjustment screws.

I don't know if the motor works; I did not get that far. But the blade height/tilt controls work fine. Very smooth, too.

I'd need to buy some beefier C-clamps than what I've got in order to try and bend the wing into shape. The thing is 2" thick and must weigh 40 pounds. I got one heck of a workout yesterday removing/replacing it onto the saw about 100 times. :thumbdown:

It took me an hour, and half a can of WD40 to get the grease off. Then another hour waxing everything. Another three hours trying to figure out how the thing goes together (instructions were useless)...yesterday was just so disappointing! 

In the event I've gotta return it, I hope Lowe's agrees with you on the packaging, woodnthings. Lowe's doesnt' carry stock on Steel City products (AFAIK). They order from Steel City and they ship it to Lowes. 

I'll let you guys know what Steel City says. If I don't hear from them by mid-afternoon today I'll call them. I sent the email last night hoping that they'd see it first thing this morning and get it to their techie-folks. I want to hear what they say before I go beating on it or trying to force it into shape.

Thanks for the ideas and support; I feel a little better. Didn't sleep too well last night b/c of this. The support is greatly appreciated. :thumbsup:

ps
The wings are not interchangable. They have a bevel on the edge of the feed side that matches up with the center table. Only one way to put them on.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Sounds like a good time to step back, take a deep breath, and regroup. I get the same way. These things should go together easier than they do, but they don't always. :furious: Sometimes things get clearer once you settle down. 

Since the miter slot is the seam for the wing and table, getting the miter slot wide enough should be as simple as shimming the mating surfaces of the slot a little....you could try a little tape, aluminum can material, washers if necessary, or just about anything that'll add a little space. It didn't sound like it'd need much.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Good idea, Scott. I have some double-sided foam tape I can try to use as a spacer. Right now I'm not sure if the wing is even level. Great ideas listed here to check that out. I was tempted to call in sick today in order to stay home and work on the saw...but resisted the temptation. Gotta save those chips for the really big stuff.

I turned wrenches trying to the get thing level for two hours last night. By the time it was 1930 I was exhausted. Had some dinner and shower and called it a night. I tried many diff things. Even sprayed some WD40 on the mating surfaces to get them to maybe slide together a little better. No such luck.

After reading everyone's replies, it's obvious that this probably isn't as a big a deal as I originally thought. This being my first TS and my inexperience with them, I got really worked up. Thanks for reining me in a bit. If feel a little better. Will feel a lot better once it's fixed and I'm making sawdust. LOL!


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mikeintexas, gee I am sorry you are going through so much agony with your new TS. Maybe I'm too much of a novice to understand why they would join the leaf via the miter slot.

You mentioned a couple of times that the saw isn't an expensive $4000 saw, etc. Well it doesn't matter $800 to some is as important as $4000 is to others, and since you opted for a new TS to avoid such headaches, the value of new is really being diminished by these problems. The main reason for choosing "new" is to get the support when such problems occur. This means if necessary that either an onsite tech be sent to solve the problem or sending the TS back and getting another one. Frankly you shouldn't have to muddle through anything more than basic setup issues, and once you choose the right socket & right nut or bolt and assembly complete the only thing necessary is calibration. However you are having form and fit issues, which are beyond simply assembly and calibration.

I have called Steel City support, and found the person I talked to very helpful, which saved me some time on an issue I had with my TS awhile back. Hopefully that friendly service is your experience and will help you quickly resolve the problems with your new TS, so that you are a happy Steel City customer.

If necessary you might want to lean on Lowes too, so that they get a chance to step up. 

BTW, everyone gets their turn in the barrel eventually. We all will buy something that doesn't meet our expectations in spite of great reviews and recommendations. I just had this happen with my choice on termite company, which has cost me an extra $1000, however the problem is hopefully solved. I thought I did my due diligence in research and choice of a company, but ultimately I choose the wrong company. Remaining objective, calm and polite is important, and can pay dividends, (the failing termite company is issuing a refund, without having to contact the state or termite assoc.)


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words, yocalif. You're 100% right that $800 is as important to some as $4K to others. $800 was a lot of money for me and I bought NEW to avoid these EXACT types of hassles in the first place.

I got an email back from Steel City's cust svc dept. He sent me a "technical service bulletin". Know what it was? A guide on how to level the wings. 

I'm pissed off at this point. He obviously didn't read my email to begin with. Here's the entire reply, minus the 10MB attachment, which was already in the instructions (that I had to print out myself).



> I have attached the TSB for this machine that helps to explain the wing set up. In the future we will be supplying spacers to go in the miter slot to keep the correct distance for miter gauge use.
> 
> For now, use the mitre gauge with a shim of equal size on the length of the bar stock, perhaps the thickness of a business card. By having this in place, the wings will remain stable during bolt tightening.
> 
> Use this same method on the right side as the wing will want to pull away from the center.


I'm going to try again tonight, before I call Lowes. I really don't think I did anything wrong last night but I am human so I'll give it another shot. Not real happy ATM.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Guess i type too quickly. He just sent me another TSB that shows how to loosen the locating pins. I hesitate to mess with those, but if i have to, i have to. I sincerely hope that I can get this squared away (pun intended) tonight.

Just in case, I gave the manager at Lowe's a call. He was happy to hear that I'm already dealing with Steel City's CS. He gave the customary "sorry you're having issues" comments and promised to do whatever was necessary to make me happy. That's a promising comment. Hopefully, he won't need to. We did talk about possibly getting a replacment part (left wing) from Steel City vs. returning the whole thing. That's something he and i definitely agree on. We'll see what happens tonight.

Thanks for the kind words and reassuring comments. It's nice to have a sympathetic ear from folks who know exactly what I'm talking about. My wife knows that "your new saw thing has a broken table." I guess she's technically correct, anyway. LOL!


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

I would call Steel City, and ask nice but firmly for those factory shims NOW! It's their design problem not yours. In the mean time you can try to work your way through it or wait until you have the shims. One good thing about working your way through it, will be a sense of pride if you get it setup correctly. You also might ask at what point do you make the decision to return the TS, and find out what is involved. You need to know that info in weighing your decisions. Personally I would try to solve the setup issue myself, or at least make an honest effort.

I would be interested to know how Lowes either helps you or not. Lowes is closing stores and having difficulties, I noticed that inventory levels at our local Lowes was low, and a cut back on personal. Will Lowes support on these types of transactions also slip a notch or two. I am doing a bath remodel and special ordered & bought the tub & shower stuff from Lowes, but had to haggle price even though their internet price was posted online, the local store was reluctant to honor that price, even though they do price matching. Yeah they are willing to match everyone else's price but their own. Fortunately a manager recognized that either they honor their printed price or this customer was walking out the door and going to Home Depot who would match the Lowes price. However HD lead times I couldn't work with, (didn't tell that to the Lowes mngr though :icon_cool.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

I was disappointed the SC guy didn't offer to mail the shims ASAP, and I will address that in a separate email to Steel City after this is all said and done.

Interestingly, they include shims for "miter slot setup" in the hardware package. I didn't mic them, but they are a lot smaller than the standard 3/4" gauge t-bar is. They slide in and out of the slot as-is, no problem. Good luck getting the actual miter gauge in there though.

I didn't know Lowes was having problems. You wouldn't know it by my store. Shelves are full, everyone's friendly, etc. I hope they don't go out of business. I much prefer Lowe's to HD. The manager seemed to want to help, said he'd call Steel City, etc, if necessary. Talk is one thing, action is another, but I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.

More later, for sure.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Check the reviews for your saw at the bottom*

Amazon.com: Steel City Tool Works 35990C 10-Inch Contractor Table Saw with Cast Iron Table Top: Home Improvement

Amazon usually has reviews of their products. Best to read before purchasing if possible.:blink: Sound like your issue is specific to your saw. Curious way to make a miter slot...half and half. A shim from a soda can will be better than cardboard/business card.  bill


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

*Oh, we're in for fun now.*

This is going to be a long read. You've been warned.

As you know, I called my local Lowes and spoke w/the store manager. He seemed real eager to help, etc. Told him I'd let him know how it goes tonight. Fast forward two hours or so.

So the tech support guy sends me another TSB showing how to loosen the locating pins in order to move the table around. Did that and it worked. Miter slot now free, open and gauge slides well. Table still not close to level. So I'm adjusting the screws, moving the four pivot points at the front/rear of the table. 

I notice that the rear bolt is...crooked? :glare: Thinking "Ah, it's just really loose, it'll snug right up when I...*clink-thunk* as the entire spot-welded insert falls off and into the cabinet. 

The picture on the right shows one of the inserts that sits above the cabinet. You can see the mounting ears spot-welded to the saw base. Pic on the left shows the insert that fell out and the hole it goes into; it mounts/welds on from underneath. Notice the ears; you can see where the weld gave way. THere's no way to level the cabinet now. And there was much sadness in the Village of Mike. AKA The Village of No Woodworking Done here. 

So I call the store manager and tell him what happened. Suddenly he's not so helpful. He says "Since you've already been in contact with them, you call them. I don't know any of their info."

Ah no. We had a little discussion about customer service and dealer responsibilities. The way we left it, he will call Steel City tomorrow and see what we can do. I did tell him I wanted another one of this model. However, I'm thinking about just getting my money back and buying something better...but I'm already over budget. A Jet, maybe? I saved a lot of money buying from Lowe's though. Free shipping (I picked it up there) and a 10% military discount is hard to turn your nose up at.

Yeah, I read those reviews on Amazon and a couple of professional reviews as well. I decided to take a chance. I swear I did NOT see that review on Amazon where the guy has the EXACT same problem as me. In fact, I experienced dejavu reading his review;I thought it was MY writing.  If you were me, what would you do? Chance it and get another one or get a refund and move on? Trying to get my money back without having the box is going to be interesting. I see a 15% restocking fee or something like that in my future.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Yikes....it broke off like it was glued in place!


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

knotscott said:


> Yikes....it broke off like it was glued in place!


Or just poorly tack-welded. :furious: I'm really not sure what to do. I'm in a bit of a pickle here. Lucky for me, the Lowes manager is working the late shift tomorrow and doesn't come in until around 11:00AM, so I've got a little time to think about things. Choices are kind of limited in the NEW, under $1K price range (cabinet/hybrid only...no contractor folding type stuff).


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble. Maybe check out the ridgid 4512 from hd. its not full cast top, but it does seem to get a lot of good reviews. And hd also gives a military discount. Good luck in what ever you do, and keep us posted.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words and recommendation, RJweb. I'm so tempted to just buy a Shop Fox W1819 on Amazon, but that's another $500 on top of what I already spent on the Steel City. I need to decide whether or not to try another Steel City, same model and hope I get lucky, or get my money back (minus whatever they penalize me for not having the box....I will try to fight that though). Why couldn't the darn thing just work, right off the bat?


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mikeintexas, I'm real sorry to hear your struggle with what should have been a happy buying experience. Especially since I personally thought Steel City was a good company to deal with and took pride in their products.

You most definitely have to return the TS. As you pointed out what should you do to replace it? Ask for another Steel City saw or buy another brand?

First I think you need to give Steel City the chance to step up and right the situation. Before I go on an example: Last year I bought a new range/oven, dishwasher, & microwave. After doing the research on brand/models I checked I could have got the models I wanted from either Lowes, Home Depot or Sears. I got lucky Sears had a Labor Day sale where I could save an addition 15%, yes HD & Lowes agreed to match the Sears price, but I choose Sears. Why? Mainly because I knew that I would have double coverage, 1st would be Sears service and then as a back up the Manufactures own service, this isn't true of HD or Lowes, basically you have only the Manufactures. Well sure enough one of the 3 items failed out of the box, the dishwasher. When choosing the dishwasher I check consumer reports, my budget wouldn't allow me to buy the CR recommended model. So I check to a variety of sources and discovered on Sears site a model that fit my budget and had 4-5 star rating by 70 purchasers. Well that highly recommend dishwasher was DOA on startup. Sears was great about this, however it took a week and 3 different dishwashers to finally get a working model. The point is I didn't give up on Sears or that brand/model of dishwasher, everything those other purchasers said was true about the dishwasher, it is a great dishwasher. I could have got pissed after the 2nd replacement, dumped Sears & the brand/model and bought from someone else, but really it was the shipping people that damaged it. As I already pointed out everyone gets their turn in the barrel, I knew I chose a good vender "Sears" for appliances, I got the product at a great price, and the Appliance manager at Sears made the effort to make sure I was happy, how? There was some shipping cost in the replacements, he backed the fees out of my original purchase and credited me the money.

So I believe in giving the either the mfg or the retailer the chance to make good. BUT, you must use every bit of leverage you have to get what you want. I would call the Steel City people and ask for a manager. First let him know that the reason you bought the Steel City saw was because of recommendations on this forum. and let him know you are active in online communities. Let him know that you would love to post a good experience with Steel City, and since the saw has failed out of the box, you would love to post how Steel City stepped up and took care of you to make sure you got a 100% properly functioning TS and you were happy. The same goes for Lowes. See if you get any mileage with that info.

I am reluctant to refer you to another TS since I was one of those who pointed you in the Steel City direction. In general the Amazon reviews of this saw are very positive, so hopefully if you received a replacement it would solve all your issues.

Note, In reading the 1 star complaint on Amazon that resembles your problem, the guy asked Steel City for his money back, and Steel City refused. Steel City was right in this response, Amazon is who the purchase was made through. Lowes is your vendor and will have to handle the money issues. So try to stay on the Lowes manager good side to get what you want.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

mikeintexas said:


> Thanks for the kind words and recommendation, RJweb. I'm so tempted to just buy a Shop Fox W1819 on Amazon, but that's another $500 on top of what I already spent on the Steel City. I need to decide whether or not to try another Steel City, same model and hope I get lucky, or get my money back (minus whatever they penalize me for not having the box....


The W1819 would be a serious step up, but there's always higher cost with that. 

Is there any chance of having that weld fixed on location?


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Due to where that threaded insert goes, you would have to disassemble the entire cabinet, to include taking the motor and the up/down/tilt mechanisms out. I imagine it's possible but it would take a few hours of work to do a 2-minute weld. The spot is inside the cabinet, up in the corner and (the kicker) BEHIND a steel brace for the motor mount/tilt mechanism. You can get your fingers up in there, but that's it. When something goes wrong for me, it really goes wrong.

Stepping up to a Jet W1819 is a nice dream, but not realistic. Out of budget, needs a 220-volt outlet (another $500 to have electric company do it so it's "insurance-legal") and She Who Must Be Consulted On All Major Purchases would seriously not be happy.

That's a great story, yocalif, and your points are well-made. I realize this is Lowes' problem to fix and despite the manager's not-so-happy tone of voice, and feeble attempt to pass the buck last night, I have to give him a chance to make it right. I have no problem calling Lowes home office and voicing my dissatisfaction if and when the time comes, but I have to give him the chance to make it right. I had to give him Steel City's customer service number last night because he "didn't have any info on the company." Uh, internet much, dude? And he said he'd call them when he got in around 1100 today. I'm planning on emailing him the pics I posted above and dropping by to see him after work.

As pissed off as I am I've got to remain patient and polite otherwise I'm going to be stuck with an expensive paperweight.

Let me bounce this off you guys. As you know, the box for the thing is toast, which might make his job of returning it to Steel City difficult. I also don't want to incur any restocking fees due to no box. I'm going to propose this to him.



> You deliver the new saw to my house at no charge due to my inconvenience. I will disassemble the old saw, carefully unpackage the new one and put the old one in the new box so your guys can take it back.


Does that sound reasonable?

One thing the manager should of have done already in the interest of good customer service was offer to deliver the new one for free. But he hasn't done that.

Thanks so much for all the help and advice. You guys are really helping me both practically and mentally with this. :yes:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If it were me..*

I would just disassemble the saw far enough to "truck/carry" it back to Lowes...unannounced and demand my money back. I would just go to customer returns like you would another other purchase receipt in hand and stand there innocently until they credited my card or gave me cash. I also don't think you are bound to return it at the store where it was purchased...might be worth a drive to another store. 
Just say:
"I bought this, last week. It's defective, show broken part. I'd like a new one or my money back." 

Someone suggested that you reference this forum to Steel City. You might send them or Lowes an email with a link to this thread if Lowes won't cooperate. There was a similar issue with a Rikon 18" bandsaw purchased at Woodcraft who wouldn't cooperate. It finally was resolved if I recall. The power of the WEB.... 

 bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would call Lowes and tell them to come get the saw. You may want a full refund, or have them deliver another one, and have a service person (either from Lowes or Steel City) help you out with assembly. For the aggravation you've been through, they should do that.












 







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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

_*Quote:
You deliver the new saw to my house at no charge due to my inconvenience. I will disassemble the old saw, carefully unpackage the new one and put the old one in the new box so your guys can take it back.*_

Sounds very reasonable to me. I'm bummed for you, but stuff happens. Try to keep in perspective. I returned my first Craftsman 22124 hybrid saw because of a severe vibration...a week later I was one happy camper. They delivered a new one that was perfect, and took the old one away. My guess is that Lowes will come through for you like they should. Assembling a new one should go faster because you've got fresh experience with it. An unfortunate learning opportunity. 

Ironically, I bought a used O-scale model Christmas trolly off Ebay and it arrived yesterday. Set it up this morning to check it out...it runs, but doesn't work quite like it should. Before I contacted the seller, I thought I'd take a quick look and maybe there'd be a quick fix...now the lights come on but it doesn't run at all! :boat: So now what do I tell the seller?! :huh: It's a much smaller scale issue than yours, but just a reminder that stuff does happen if you buy enough stuff....just the luck of the draw sometimes.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm a reasonable guy. I understand stuff happens. I AM bummed that the manager didn't say "We'll bring a new one to your house, pronto" right off the bat. His attitude was "I"ll call Steel City tomorrow and we'll see what happens." This was at roughly 1930 last night, so "tomorrow" is definitely understandable. I just got his work email address from the manager on duty and I'm emailing him the pics. I will also type up my proposal. I'd rather not bring it back to the store. I don't own a pickup truck; I borrowed my buddy's (and my buddy) to get the thing in the first place.

I have had to elevate issues in the past. Everything from home repair to cars to food service. I do believe in giving people the chance to make it right, and a reasonable amount of time to do so. Right now, I don't have a warm fuzzy and I'm thinking this guy is going to try to pull one over on me. Again, I'm not above calling Steel City and Lowes home office. The gun is loaded but it's staying in the nightstand drawer...for now.  I'm hoping that my honest, no-nosense attitude and my email to him shows that I'm no dummy and he's better off just doing the right thing.

I think my proposal is reasonable and to be honest, short of a factory-trained service person, I'm sure that I can put the saw together better than any "delivery guy" who also "installs" washing machines, ice makers and Lazyboy recliners.

Thanks for the support. More info as it comes in. You'll be the first to know. 

_Stay tuned for the next incredibly exciting development on_...*AS THE SAW DOESN'T TURN!*


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

*Well, here's the email*

I just sent this email to the store manager. He's supposed to be at work any minute now, though I don't know if he'll check his email.



> Hello ***XX,
> 
> I obtained your email address from the manager on duty this morning. I wanted to come speak to you in person, but I could not get off today.
> 
> ...


Now, what I did NOT put in there was that anything less than what I asked for and you're taking the saw back and refunding my money. I used to be quite the caveman in my younger days...got me nowhere, usually. Mr. Caveman is still in there but I only let him out when necessary. I'm expecting an email or phone call from him sometime today. Even just a "Mike, that sounds very reasonable. I'll make it work" would be very reassuring.

Thoughts?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great!*

Cavewomen, can be worse than cavemen unless clubs are involved.  bill


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mike, I think your request is legit and a good compromise. However remember you are negotiating for a happy outcome, key is "negotiating", thus the powers you are dealing with may consider to do something else or change slightly what you want. Don't go all concrete until you think everything through. The manager at Lowes did the correct thing by directing you to Steel City, their saw their problem, that is until you decide to get a refund or make another demand. There are logistic issues, and if the manager is on his game, he will try to minimize the hassle for you. If that isn't the case, then you are going to have to borrow a pickup and take the saw back to Lowes like Woodnthings suggested, and get your money back. 

One scenario is that the Lowes manager due to store policy may not be able to cover shipping costs. You can negotiate that out, by accepting 20%-or higher discounts worth double or 3 x the amount of the shipping cost. 

Try to avoid going into war mode, and focus on getting what you want a very good table saw to make saw dust.

Again after all the effort you may have to just take the dang thing back and get a refund and move on.

wishing you the best outcome possible... actually the 2nd best outcome, the best would have be the ts working perfectly out of the 1st box.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

*GOOD NEWS!*

Received a call from the Lowes manager. He said "Read your email...sounds reasonable to me. I've already ordered a new saw for you." I asked "So, you're bringing the new one to the house and carting the old one away too, right?" He said "Um...yeah...I was going to do that anyway." 

So they ordered another 35990C and it should arrive in 10-14 days. That's what they told me last time and it got here in about 8 days. I'll take the old one apart today or tomorrow, just to have it done and ready to go. I'm just throwing the hardware into one baggie...not sorting it out. The new saw will be put together in about two hours flat, now that I know where all the pieces go. I'm sure I'll have the same "miter gauge doesn't fit issue", but now I know how to fix it. It really seems like it will be a good saw. The parts sure are heavy enough and the mobile base works well...though obviously some of the welding is lacking. Mabye I got a "Friday afternoon" saw? *chuckle*

Of course, me being a "the glass is half empty" person, I won't be happy until the new saw is up and working at 100%. But so far, so good. Will update this thread as new info comes in. 

Thanks a LOT for all your support and advice. You guys are great.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks, yocalif. 1st best possible outcome didn't happen, but the 2nd best is looking good! 




yocalif said:


> mike, I think your request is legit and a good compromise. However remember you are negotiating for a happy outcome, key is "negotiating", thus the powers you are dealing with may consider to do something else or change slightly what you want. Don't go all concrete until you think everything through. The manager at Lowes did the correct thing by directing you to Steel City, their saw their problem, that is until you decide to get a refund or make another demand. There are logistic issues, and if the manager is on his game, he will try to minimize the hassle for you. If that isn't the case, then you are going to have to borrow a pickup and take the saw back to Lowes like Woodnthings suggested, and get your money back.
> 
> One scenario is that the Lowes manager due to store policy may not be able to cover shipping costs. You can negotiate that out, by accepting 20%-or higher discounts worth double or 3 x the amount of the shipping cost.
> 
> ...


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Mike, 
Glad to see things are working out for you, the first saw maybe just a monday or friday saw. My dad use to tell me that when you ordered a car (yes back in the old days), they would let you know what the date was it was going to be built, if it was a monday or friday, he would wait a couple of days before placing his order, who would figure. Ok so keep us posted and we should see pics in about two weeks.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

:thumbsup: That's what I was hoping to hear! :thumbsup:


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mike that is great news! I am very happy to hear Lowes do their job.

Suggestion: write down the s/n and any other name plate info. Call Steel City, ask for the shims and other parts that suppose to come in the fix it kit. They can use your return TS serial number. Hopefully you will have all the stuff when the new TS arrives.

I'm like you "glass half full", so you posting your struggle helps others too in seeing positive outcomes.

WWT can really help sometimes...
Proverbs: 15:22 "Without consultation, plans are frustrated,
But with many counselors they succeed. "


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Asking SC for the shims; that's a darn good idea! I will email the guy from their tech support who told me about them. Thank you. Having the proper size shims would make setting the wing-width very simple vs. loosen/adjust/tighten/try/repeat.

I'm very glad that so far it seems to be working out. The asst manager called and said "It's ordered; we'll call you when it's in to arrange delivery." Very nice. I'm on my way to Lowes right now to buy some other stuff. I will not talk to anyone though...done enough of that today. LOL!



yocalif said:


> mike that is great news! I am very happy to hear Lowes do their job.
> 
> Suggestion: write down the s/n and any other name plate info. Call Steel City, ask for the shims and other parts that suppose to come in the fix it kit. They can use your return TS serial number. Hopefully you will have all the stuff when the new TS arrives.
> 
> ...


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## EM3 (Sep 12, 2011)

As an office manager (not at any Lowes) may I offer a suggestion. Maybe you could get the district managers name and email and drop them an email and carbon copy the store manager in that helped you and just explain to them your appreciation in how this was rectified. If not then maybe you could drop off a Thank You card addressed to the manager of the store and deliver it to them personally. Trust me being a manager is hard and we very seldom ever get a compliment from those we work with or those above us. A small word of kindness can help a great deal.

Thank you for your service to our country.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Congratulations. Also make sure you get an owners manual and parts list.












 







.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

That's a very good idea. I'll do it when I have my new saw sitting in my garage, and it's working to my satisfaction. 

I'm a manager myself and have had anywhere from 6 to 51 people under me in the past 10 years or so. I get all the crap when something is wrong and none of the thanks when it's all going smoothly. Believe me, I know the drill. I'm sure the Lowes manager will appreciate the kudos and it can only get me in even better with him for the future. Everyone wins. Thanks for the suggestion.



EM3 said:


> As an office manager (not at any Lowes) may I offer a suggestion. Maybe you could get the district managers name and email and drop them an email and carbon copy the store manager in that helped you and just explain to them your appreciation in how this was rectified. If not then maybe you could drop off a Thank You card addressed to the manager of the store and deliver it to them personally. Trust me being a manager is hard and we very seldom ever get a compliment from those we work with or those above us. A small word of kindness can help a great deal.
> 
> Thank you for your service to our country.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

I know you are waiting for your new saw to arrive, had a question about the saw. The front rail for the fence, is that one piece or is it split in to 2 pieces like the ridgid 4512, and craftsman 21833, thx RJ


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

RJ: It's split into two pieces. I am hoping that it works well; I never mounted them to the table. I didn't get that far in the assembly process...never actually plugged the saw in either.

It's 6 days since Lowe's ordered a replacement TS. The old one is disassembled and the parts neatly stacked in the garage...covered in sawdust from when I was sanding, but it's there. I'm hoping the new saw comes this week; I've got a 3-day weekend coming up and would really like to start a project. I COULD start it with my circular saw if I build a sled for it...but I would really rather use a TS.


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## oldmacnut (Dec 27, 2010)

OK, tldnr

LOL.

First, Mike, where in Texas are you?, I'm up near Sherman. If I can be any help, don't hesitate to call 903-421-4552 Jim


Now, what I did with a different saw, that might help.
I bought a ridgid r4512 within weeks of release. Itbhad typical damage from shipping. Called tech, unfortunately as I had the saw shipped from a Borg in Alabama to Sherman, exchanging was not going to happen.

*snip* to much useless story.

So, tech support and I talk, see no parts avaliable, option?, return to store, yup, not gonna happen.

Oh, BTW, my front rail was bent, stamped steel extensions warped.

So, my question was...what parts from a different saw will work???
Silence, then "let me check"
Turns out the TS3650 has extensions and rails that will fit. So, ridgid sent me 2 cast iron extensions, and 1 piece rails, and the fence from the TS3650.

Point is...... after drilling mounting holes in the extensions, I flipped the saw onto its top, and attached the extensions while the saw was upside down. It made life sooooo much easier in lining them up, and getting them flat. Not perfect, but a lot had to do with the holes I drilled.

So, try that, flip the saw upside down, then put extensions on, might help.

Oh, ridgid engineers refer to my saw as the frankensaw, as they haven't even done that...as a test. So I have a solid cast iron top, micro adjust knob on fence, 1 piece rails, I like my saw.

Anyway, reach out to me if fairly local, and ill be of any help I can, don't be afraid to call at all.

Jim

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Woodworking Talk


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Hi Jim,

I'm a ways away from you down in San Antonio. Thanks for the offer for assistance. That's a great story about your Rigid; all hail the Frankensaw! :clap:

Mounting the wings while the table's on it's top could work but it's not really practical for the SC 35990. There are locating pins on the main table and the wings have "turrets" cast into them and you've got to seat the wings on the pins, then bolt down. I'm hoping that the busted leveling screw on my 1st saw was just a fluke. The saw was packaged really well, the box had no damage AND it was strapped to a skid. 

This second saw will go together in about an hour flat, not counting the time to remove the protective oil gunk and getting a coat of wax on there. Trying to follow the useless instructions was an exercise in frustration. It was easier to just look at the exploded view of the saw on the parts pages to figure out what goes where. At least now I know where everything goes. LOL!


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## oldmacnut (Dec 27, 2010)

mikeintexas said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I'm a ways away from you down in San Antonio. Thanks for the offer for assistance. That's a great story about your Rigid; all hail the Frankensaw! :clap. LOL!


LOL, here is a pic of the only TS3650/4512 HYBRID

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Woodworking Talk


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Wow, that fence is massive! What's the deal with the openings on the extreme left/right edges of the wings?


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## oldmacnut (Dec 27, 2010)

mikeintexas said:


> Wow, that fence is massive! What's the deal with the openings on the extreme left/right edges of the wings?


Normally those openings are closed to the blade, on a typical saw, I opted to put them away from the blade, which made drilling the holes harder as there was webbing in those areas.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Woodworking Talk


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Mike,
Not to start anything, but any word on your replacement saw, thx


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

RJ: The estimated delivery date from manuf to Lowes was yesterday. I called and no saw. I will call them again today. We've got a long weekend this weekend and it would be the perfect time for me to assemble the new saw and get it dialed in. 

I've got a busted saw I can't use and Lowes has my money and an unhappy customer on their hands.

To say I'm anxious is a big understatement. Not only b/c I want my TS, but because this is a lot of money flapping in the breeze right now and I just want this finalized and resolved. :wallbash:

Thanks for checking, though. Happy Thansgiving from the guy with no table saw! :laughing:


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh, I am not happy right now. Not_at_all. Called Lowes to check and spoke with the Tools department manager (not the store mgr I've been dealing with). Their system didn't show anything new, so they had to call Steel City. The 35990C is on backorder until sometime in January. I wish I would've known that three weeks ago. I cannot wait until "January sometime" for a TS.

So I asked that they come get the busted one and refund my money. Tool manager said he'd pass it on to the store manager, so I'm waiting to hear back. I will call the store manager in a couple of hours if I don't hear back. I really hope this doesn't get messy b/c I'm not in the mood for a fight. Actually, I AM in the mood for a fight and therein is the problem. Just give me my money and take this thing away.

There was a Jet on Amazon (can't remember model) in the same $800-ish price category that I had my eye on.

*edit*
Store manager just called. They are coming Sat afternoon to pick up the saw. Hopefully my card is refunded next week and we can move on. Not an auspicious beginning to a holiday weekend.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear this Mike, keeps us posted.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks, RJ. I'm sorry too. I realize stuff happens and I'm cool with that. But I abhor wasting time, and that's what the past 2.5 weeks has been. I could've had a new TS already. Hopefully in the next few weeks there'll be a new thread from me extolling the wonders of my new Brand-XYZ tablesaw.


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear the bad news! What should have been a fun experience sure turned into a "pita".

Buying a big expensive item off amazon, you better have a whole list of questions amazon needs to answer before they get your money. For certain youknow the questions after your last experience.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

yocalif said:


> Sorry to hear the bad news! What should have been a fun experience sure turned into a "pita".
> 
> Buying a big expensive item off amazon, you better have a whole list of questions amazon needs to answer before they get your money. For certain youknow the questions after your last experience.


Absolutely! Thanks, yocalif.

I have learned my lesson the hard way. I just called them. If it shows up obviously damaged (box is smashed) I just refuse delivery. If hidden damage show up later, say after I've got the dang thing together (But that never happens, right?  ) then I call Amazon and they will come pick it up and offer a replacement or refund, whichever I prefer). Unfortunately, they don't offer a military discount, which would be $100 on a $1K saw, but I'm not done shopping around yet. 

There's a Woodcraft store about 30 mins from me. But the problem w/buying from a retailer here in Texas is sales tax. If I can buy online I would avoid tax. Not sure if they give a mil discount, which would more than offset the tax. One way to find out.


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mikeintexas said:


> There's a Woodcraft store about 30 mins from me. But the problem w/buying from a retailer here in Texas is sales tax. If I can buy online I would avoid tax. Not sure if they give a mil discount, which would more than offset the tax. One way to find out.


I hear you about the sales tax, being in Calif. Amazon is even charging sales tax now on depending on where the stuff is shipped from. Also Calif's over regulations just stopped me from buying online a mercury switch I need for a less reliable mechanical one.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

I thought Amazon wasn't charge CA sales tax until 01 Jan 11?

Mike, I'm very sorry to hear your story. At minimum, I'd have the store manager return your old one in the system and re-ring your new one. That way you have a fresh purchase date on the new saw, just in case. Personally, if parts broke off, I'd take that as a sign on poor manufacturing practices and QA standards. There's no way I'd accept a like-replacement. But that's just me.

This thread has lots of good info, but it could really use a BLUF or timeline in the first post!

If you don't mind me asking... are you at JBSA Lackland or Randolph?


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## Big Eyed Fish (Jan 31, 2011)

Sorry to hear your issues with that saw. I bought the same saw almost a year ago, and although I did have a couple of the same issues as you did (miter slot adjustment and bad assembly instrucions), I got the saw set up and have absolutely loved it. My wings took very little adjusting to make them level. I used a business card or two between the left wing and table prior to tightening wing bolts, and things came together nicely. I'm just a weekend hobbyist, so haven't used it real extensively, but probably a dozen weekends in the last year and its served me wonderfully.

My opinion is Steel City provides a good, solid product, but need to clean up some of the little things like QA/QC, instructions, etc.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

I've no doubt I'd have been happy with my SC 35990C; I researched before buying and being mechanically inclined I was prepared to deal with the useless instructions. As long as there's an exploded-view parts diagram I can figure things out. What I wasn't prepared for was a bad weld on a vital part. Could I have fabbed something up, say a stack of washers on a bolt to level the table? Sure, if this was a $50 Craigslist find, I could do that. Not on a new, $800 saw though. It should be perfect out of the box (without manuf defects). I was confident enough in SC products to try a second one. It just wasn't in the cards for me, I guess. I'm most probably buying a Jet, though I might look again at a Craftsman in that same price category. ("Might" being the operative word).

On a side note, for those of you that have had a TS or other heavy machine delivered to your home: Did the delivery guys put the box in the garage? I did some checking on delivery of Jet saws and read that YOU have to get the box off the truck. I did that w/my buddy's pickup truck from a bed that's 3 feet high. We just slid the box to the ground, keeping the weight on the tailgate. But no way I could do that from a truck that's got a 6-foot+ high box. I'd prefer if they would put the box in the garage...or at least help me slide it up the hill. My driveway is very steep. 12 feet long but a really steep incline. I.E. no way one person can push/slide a 400-pound box up the concrete slope and into the garage.


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

mikeintexas said:


> I did some checking on delivery of Jet saws and read that YOU have to get the box off the truck. I did that w/my buddy's pickup truck from a bed that's 3 feet high. We just slid the box to the ground, keeping the weight on the tailgate. But no way I could do that from a truck that's got a 6-foot+ high box.


Most of the time delivery companies will use a truck with a lift gate. If you are worried find out who the trucking company is and give them a call. Most companies understand they have to get the product on the ground in good condition or you will send it right back.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

My experience with freight shipments (4'x4'x8' crate, ~2000 lbs) is that they'll put the liftgate as close as they can safely get it to where you want it. Once it's off the liftgate and on the ground, it's your responsibility. Usually they'll let you use their pallet jacket for a few feet at least. However, remember that it might just be coming on a 52' truck (mine did), so they might not be able to get as close to the spot you choose as you might think.


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## Jim Moe (Sep 18, 2011)

*Steel City 35990G Problems*

About a year and a half ago I puchased a Steel City 35990G from Amazon and had some issues with assembly and faulty parts. After reading all the posts about your problems, I wondered why you have not contacted Steel City Tech support in Canada. I had a few problems aligning my saw because I believed the assembly instructions which stated that the granite slabs were aligned from the factory. They were not! 

But the main problem was the broken piece of granite from the center slab which held one of the magnets for the table insert. I called Canada and talked to tech support and was very satisfied with the help and shortcuts they gave me to level the table. I recieved a new center slab from UPS the next week. Also they mailed me shims.

I was the first person to review this TS on Amazon and am very pleased with this saw after I added an Incra fence system.:thumbsup:


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks for the tips on delivery. Worst case scenario is that I'll have to open the box and carry the pieces one by one 25 feet or so into my garage. I have a large hand truck, so that would help. 

@Jimmomech8: I am happy that your situation was resolved to your ultimate satisfaction. It's always nice when things work out. As far as my situation goes, I contacted their tech support via email...don't know if they are in Canada or not...I'm not in Canada though. Anyway, they were responsive but not too helpful. Their first reply was "Level the table using the instructions found in the manual." Wow, really? I emailed them back and they sent me a "technical bulletin" showing how to move the locator pins that the table wings drop down onto. That was very helpful as it allowed the miter gauge slot to line up proplerly. It was at that point I discovered that the rear, left wing height adjustment screw was broken off (failed weld). And here we are. 

Oh, and just for the record, after Lowes agreed to order another TS for me, I emailed Steel City tech support again and informed them I'd be getting a new saw. Therefore, would you please send me the new miter slot adjustment shims you told me about in your previous email? I gave my address. They replied "We have your address and will send them." That was a month ago. To date I've not received any shims. Bad on them.

After this fiasco I just think it wasn't in the stars for a Steel City saw to be in my garage. I'm going to be buying a different brand from a different vendor. I'll lose my 10% discount that I'd get through Lowes, but the 10% I saved was not worth what I've had to deal with. I'm looking at Jet, Grizzly (I know they are the same thing, basically, but warranty and "deals" vary) and Shop Fox. Budget this time around will be a little higher at $1K +/- $100 or so. I'm still in the mindset that this will be my first and last table saw.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Dang Mike*

The thread is better than a Soap Opera, the tragedy, the triumph, the travel, the emails, the money, the heartbreak, .... only thing missing is Kim Kardasian (the sex)  :laughing:
Take the money and run. How far away are you from a Saw Stop store. Buy it one time and the last time, and the wife will appreciate the added safety.
Show her the You Tube videos.  bill


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! Almost forgot about that.

Not sure how far away I am from a Sawstop dealer and I'm not doubting that they work. I just don't see the value in paying a few hundred extra for that feature when I'm very careful to begin with. That extra money that would go towards the Sawstop Keep Your Finger Technology can instead go towards a better saw. Not poking fun at anyone who buys one of them at all. I'm just not real big on "Nanny Technology." ABS and airbags in the car are good things. Lane departure warning, automatic braking and automatic parking for instance, are not good things.

What remains to be seen is if Lowes gives me a hassle about not having the box for the TS. I had to destroy it in order to get the saw out. If you remember, the deal I had made w/the Lowes store mgr was that we'd put the old saw in the box that the new one comes in. Frankly, I'm not taking back one penny less than a full refund. For the inconvenience I've had to go through, waiting for 3 weeks only to be told it's back ordered until January...nope. I want all my money back. Possibly at this point he just wants me to go away and won't care about the box. Let's hope so.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Mike,
what is the model of the jet saw you are looking at, I thought all jet saws had no riving knife, I feel that is important, thx roy


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

That's a good catch RJ. If it's true, I might not be getting a Jet as I agree that the riving knife is important. For the next week or so I'll be trying to decide what to get. Amazon just went out of stock on a few different models I was looking at. Early XMas presents for lucky woodworkers, I'm sure.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The Jet Proshop hybrids have not yet been updated with a riving knife.

Mike - Here's a possible scenario....Ridgid is offering 25% for Black Friday....RIGID25. You could grab an R4512 for somewhere near the $400 range, sit on it until the dust settles with your Steel City/Lowes debacle clears up, then would have some budget remaing to add cast iron wings and maybe even an upgraded Delta T2 fence for another $150, and would have a pretty nice saw for < $700-800.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

mikeintexas said:


> Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! Almost forgot about that.
> 
> Not sure how far away I am from a Sawstop dealer and I'm not doubting that they work. I just don't see the value in paying a few hundred extra for that feature when I'm very careful to begin with. That extra money that would go towards the Sawstop Keep Your Finger Technology can instead go towards a better saw. Not poking fun at anyone who buys one of them at all. I'm just not real big on "Nanny Technology." ABS and airbags in the car are good things. Lane departure warning, automatic braking and automatic parking for instance, are not good things.
> 
> What remains to be seen is if Lowes gives me a hassle about not Let's hope so.


I hear Ya on the Nanny issue. I hear Ya on the "being careful" also. I have a few table saws...some are ganged together. See My Photos. If I were starting out and I could get by with just one, it would probably be a Saw Stop because they have excellent design features, good controls and fences....and because it may just save a finger or two if something bad happens, kinda like a back up gun. It's there when and if you need it. We have a member who lost a finger in a moment of "...." and then he got the SS. His financial loss was significant as well as the loss of his dexterity.
The additional cost of the SS was insignificant compared to the medical bills. Each user must make his own choices in that regard. I can't justify a new Saw Stop, so I am really careful also. I've never been "nicked" by a blade, but there are times when I'm thinking...this could go bad.... but doesn't. There are times when you just can't predict what will happen, the wood can shift, close on the blade., get stuck on the splitter, etc. even though I am careful there is still a risk. I cover that by using push sticks, and keeping my fingers away from the front of the blade unless I'm ripping a wide board. Kickback, the other saw hazard, is usually not "fatal" but there have been close calls. Experienced woodworkers have been gutted by "spears" kicking back and bruised by larger pieces. A Saw Stop won't prevent those issues.

The newer saws will have removable riving knives, my older ones have fixed splitters. I like the choice of removing the riving knife when doing a stopped cut as opposed to completely realigning my splitter to be parallel with the blade...PITA. 

Good luck with your choice whatever it is. Consider the Grizzly line of cabinet saws which are 1/2 the price of others. I have 5 Grizzly tools and all are high quality and were a bargain price.  bill

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-220V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLW


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Good ideas and points, knotscott and Bill. Between the TS debacle, the holiday today (company just left) and life in general my head is spinning pretty good. That Grizzy G1023RLW is NICE. I really like the built-in router table. Since I don't have much room in my garage to begin with, one less table sounds great. 

With that Rigid R4512, what cast wings would fit it? I'm all about picking and choosing parts, assuming they are a complete bolt-on and wont' require drilling and tapping new holes. That's just asking for something to not line up. I know; I'm paranoid. Now please stop staring at me. LOL!

I'm very careful with my fingers; I play bass and guitar and I'm a network guy by trade. I sorta need my fingers. Push sticks/blocks/featherboards are all my friends. Kickback and I are old friends though. A few years back I took a 2'x4' sheet of 3/4" MDF to the pelvis. I guess the fence was locked down crooked and the board got caught up. It hit me right above the pubic bone. I peed a little blood that night but everything turned out OK. Needless to say I don't rush cuts anymore; I let the blade do the work and take my time.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

The Grizzly G0715P is on my very short list. I'd love to have the 1023RLW, but it's a bit out of my price range. But we'll see what happens. :innocent:


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

IMHO, Mike wants a new TS with the configuration he wants right out of the box, and is willing to pay a little more to get exactly what he wants (within or close to his budget). Then he should get whatever TS fits the bill.

I appreciate he has related his experiences, because there are some valuable lessons in this thread.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Most 27" deep cast iron wings could be made to fit, but not necessarily without some drilling. I'm pretty sure I've that the wings from the TS3650/3660 are a direct bolt on. Cast iron drills fairly easily, but as Yocalif suggests, it might not be a project you're interested...just a suggestion to get the most in a new saw within budget.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Yocalif, you hit the nail on the head. :yes: I've repaired old cars before and have "fabricated" parts when necessary, just go get the thing to run for another day. When it's an old, used thing, you get it running however you can. But something new, something that costs a lot of money, must work 100% out of the box. I know some of my "detailed explanations" can sound a bit whiney, but I'm a details-oriented person by nature and by trade. Every wire has to go exactly to the right spot and every period, quote, semicolon etc in a command line must be correct when setting up a router or switch (networking gear) else it just won't work. Sometimes I expect that level of attention to detail from the people I deal with "in the outside world" (outside of my job) and it gets my goat when it doesn't happen. The real world needs to get its' act together. LOL!

Of course I've still got questions. Such as: Did Lowes really just find out that the saw is backordered until January, or is that something they could've found out two weeks agao with a little deeper commitment to customer service? We'll never know that answer.

I just received a phone call from their delivery manager; he was verifying the pickup of the busted saw for tomorrow. I told him "I'm home today...you can come get it today." He sounded tired. LOL! He said "We're booked solid until eight tonight and might not even get to all the deliveries we're supposed to make today. Sorry." It's Black Friday, so I get it. 

It would be easy to say that one lesson learned is "Don't buy anything big from mail order" but that's just a false statement. I'm convinced my TS just had a manuf defect. It would've been that way whether I picked the saw up from the Steel City warehouse or whether Lowes delivered it to my house. There was zero damage to the shipping carton. Nobody could have known. Now, the customer service aspect of it from Lowes' end could've been better. But it is what it is. I'll still shop there b/c the people are friendly, the store has everything and I get good service (usually) and a discount.

I'll be doing more drooling while eating turkey sandwiches and browsing saws online. I hope everyone has a great day and weekend!

Mike


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Same to you brother!*

A little anecdotal story. I got my son a '98 Caddy Deville to drive, a steal at $3800. It's safe, big, BAD Northstar 32 V V-8 and comfey, electric everything...trunk, seats and a 4 tone train horn. Except the dam radio only plays cassettes. I'm the only one in the family who owns cassettes, he has an I pod, and as of today, an I Phone which now does everything but speak to God, and I'm working on that.
So we tried various upgrade Cadillac Delco radios, which didn't work and were returned. So after market here we come. Alpine 124 SXM it does everything except talk to God also. 3 preamp outs, headphone and USB in 22.5 watts per channel, Satellite XM built in all for $270.00 So, I got to thinking we could back down a step or 2 and for $170 get a nice radio, 1 out preamp, no XM etc. So I tried to let the very nice salesman talk me out of it and he said do what every you'd like, return it, exchange it whatever.
I reasoned that $100 over the expected life of the car, 5 or more years, was $20.00 per year. No big deal. So we are staying with that one.

Here's were my story relates to your purchase. As I said I have a few table saws, last one cost me $50.00, a used motorized 12" Craftsman. best one cost me $3600, a new 12" Powermatic, and some in between cost $500.00. Over the expected life of a table saw, in my case 30 years... the price becomes a fly spot on the wall.
I struggled with the '60 Craftsman 10" for way too long and it eventually became a work saw to be thrown in the back of the truck because I had much better saws to use, more power much better fences etc.
I've said this before here, in my opinion the fence is the heart of a table saw. It's the one thing you interface with almost every time you use it. It had better be the most accurate, easy to use control/accessory on the saw. Motors and tables I kind of take for granted since they are very seldom problematic, but a crappy fence will give you nightmares in the daytime.
A good blade will make a difference if you have struggled with a crappy one, night and day difference. You need at least 2 and 3 is best. Rip, general and crosscut. 
Now the sales pitch: I don't own a Grizzly table saw, but based on the other tools I own, and assuming Saw Stop is out of range, I'd go with a Grizzly with the riving knife. If it's a choice between a 2HP Polar Bear, or a 3HP 1023 and the difference is $300 I'd go with the 3 HP. Because over the life of the saw, that $300 over 10 years becomes $30.00 per year. about .10 per day.
When it comes to a table saw, go big, or go home seems to fit.
Now that's just my opinion and my experience. My first table saw was that '60 Craftsman 10" model 100 I bought with high school graduation and birthday money for around $100.00 in 1960. I just parted it out 4 years ago after 40 years of service. 

End of story. Hope it helps in your decision.  bill


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

It does help indeed Bill. Very much so. :yes: Great stories and thanks very much. I'm looking at this as a once in a lifetime purchase. I've literally waited 15+ years for this (finally done moving around...though I'll move one last time when we buy our house). I'm getting a good one. :thumbsup:


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm a bang for buck guy, I never buy the top end stuff, unless it is the only way to achieve what I am trying to do. I have found that in most products there is always a HUGE bang for buck product available. It might be last years model, or a model same as the top one but a couple of features left out yet the performance is there. I have found this to be true in computer, electronics, cars, tv, appliances, boats, etc. My brother-in-law is just the opposite, he wants the best and will wait until he can afford the best. 

However I want the performance too, and have been known to get rid of some bang for buck buys and get something better, but most of the time it works out great. I estimate in last 10 years I have saved approx $80,000 on vehicles and insurance, by only buying used mostly later models, no monthly payments, not interest. The biggest surprise is the repair bills have dropped too, I have had fewer problems, hard to believe but it's true. I think this is because we research and after a vehicle is 3-5 years old you can easily find out which make/model has the least problems before you buy.


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

First off, I am sorry to hear of all the problems with the brand new table saw. Its sad how brand new doesn't mean quality anymore.

Now allow me to comment on the "buy the best" idea. I have a 20 year old Dewalt Radial Arm saw sitting on my carport that runs perfectly and cuts straight. However, 20 years ago no one put laser sights on anything. That is exactly why I have the saw. My Father in Law saw one with a laser sight and had to have the newest "best" thing and he was going to just throw the one I now have away. I wish he was still alive. The saw he bought never has cut more than two straight lines without having the repair guys come to his shop and my "old worn out Dewalt" still cuts perfectly and now has laser sights also!

My Mother in Law is still mad about the saws...


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

johnnie52 said:


> First off, I am sorry to hear of all the problems with the brand new table saw. Its sad how brand new doesn't mean quality anymore.
> 
> Now allow me to comment on the "buy the best" idea. I have a 20 year old Dewalt Radial Arm saw sitting on my carport that runs perfectly and cuts straight. However, 20 years ago no one put laser sights on anything. That is exactly why I have the saw. My Father in Law saw one with a laser sight and had to have the newest "best" thing and he was going to just throw the one I now have away. I wish he was still alive. The saw he bought never has cut more than two straight lines without having the repair guys come to his shop and my "old worn out Dewalt" still cuts perfectly and now has laser sights also!
> 
> My Mother in Law is still mad about the saws...


Was about to say... couldn't you just slap a laser wheel on it?

Did you put lasers on both sides, or just one?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

yocalif said:


> I'm a bang for buck guy, I never buy the top end stuff, unless it is the only way to achieve what I am trying to do. I have found that in most products there is always a HUGE bang for buck product available. ........


I'm not quite sure of your point here.
On this forum *countless *times Grizzly has been mentioned as the "Best Bang for the Buck" good quality, good customer service, low price, and ships to your door. Now, as far as table saws the bottom of the Grizzly line is at $500.00, while the top of the line is over $5,000.00, so the saw mentioned a 1023, about $1200.00 is near the bottom as far as price. It's new, has a warranty and is very well built. I'm certain you can find a used Delta, Powermatic, or General cabinet saw for a less and tune/recondition it to look and work like new, that's also a choice. I've done it both ways and find a "new tool" in the shop has slightly more appeal to me personally. The controls, on/off switches, guards, fences are usually just a bit better. For example the riving knife vs the old splitter. The splitter does what it's supposed to do, and is a PITA to R&R when you need a stopped or partial cut..... it's in the way. The riving knife is easily R&R, so that's a winner. my .02  bill


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Just general rambling and may not apply to OP.......


The more accurate you can describe the work to be done on a TS the better you'll be able to purchase.

For instance,ours is more often than not ripping miles of the same sized pcs.So,the fence could be a clamped on 2x4 and we'd be just fine.

We use alot of fixturing....subsequently the safety factor is off the chart....you'd have to have 12" long fingers to reach blade.

The motor gets turned on once and then used for 3 straight hrs.So,we look for highend motors....forced air cooling...$$ run cost,ect.

When doing bevels or dados will opt for a different saw for each of these and not mess with rip saw.

And can go on and on......the point being,evaluating the work you do has a direct correlation to the purchase....pretty much irrespective of whatever pce of equip.I love a good TS as much as the next guy.....but just don't see it as the end-all,be-all of WW equip?BW


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

yocalif said:


> I'm a bang for buck guy, I never buy the top end stuff, unless it is the only way to achieve what I am trying to do. I have found that in most products there is always a HUGE bang for buck product available. It might be last years model, or a model same as the top one but a couple of features left out yet the performance is there. I have found this to be true in computer, electronics, cars, tv, appliances, boats, etc. My brother-in-law is just the opposite, he wants the best and will wait until he can afford the best.
> 
> However I want the performance too, and have been known to get rid of some bang for buck buys and get something better, but most of the time it works out great. I estimate in last 10 years I have saved approx $80,000 on vehicles and insurance, by only buying used mostly later models, no monthly payments, not interest. The biggest surprise is the repair bills have dropped too, I have had fewer problems, hard to believe but it's true. I think this is because we research and after a vehicle is 3-5 years old you can easily find out which make/model has the least problems before you buy.


+1.:yes: I agree, that you can save the depreciated value. That just makes sense...not too hard to understand. My first "brand new" table saw was way too small to perform what I found I got into. It (a bench top) was far better I thought than a circular saw mounted under a sheet of plywood. 

When I realized that I had to upgrade to a saw that could handle heavy use on a daily basis, I opted for a brand new Unisaw. I think that decision was based on something I deserved, over just looking for used. Some things in life are like that. I never regretted buying new.

As for buying used vehicles, of the many cars I've had most all were purchased used. I had choices of vehicles and options that if bought new would have been a real financial drain. And yes, an open mind must be kept in considering the cost of upkeep, just as in shop equipment.










 







.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

johnnie52 said:


> First off, I am sorry to hear of all the problems with the brand new table saw. Its sad how brand new doesn't mean quality anymore.
> 
> Now allow me to comment on the "buy the best" idea. I have a 20 year old Dewalt Radial Arm saw sitting on my carport that runs perfectly and cuts straight. However, 20 years ago no one put laser sights on anything. That is exactly why I have the saw. My Father in Law saw one with a laser sight and had to have the newest "best" thing and he was going to just throw the one I now have away. I wish he was still alive. The saw he bought never has cut more than two straight lines without having the repair guys come to his shop and my "old worn out Dewalt" still cuts perfectly and now has laser sights also!
> 
> My Mother in Law is still mad about the saws...


I take a very dim view of tools with lasers. I don't own any and will not buy one that has that option. I have used saws so equipped, and their accuracy, IMO stinks. If, the cost of the laser jazz was subtracted from the cost of the tool, that same new saw might be a better deal. And now thinking about it, not much of the new machinery knocks my socks off. The old iron always did work pretty darn good, and still does.












 







.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> ... I think that decision was based on something I deserved, over just looking for used. Some things in life are like that. I never regretted buying new.


+1. That's exactly my rationale in this case. I've waited a very long time to buy a tablesaw. Been in apartments mostly for the past 18 years and got into woodworking (sorta...building speaker boxes and such) about 16 years ago. This major purchase has been a long time coming.

I'll be purchasing a Grizzly for sure. Just not sure which model yet. It'll be something under $1.3K, put it that way. :yes: Seems some of the saws come with regular and dado throat plates, which is nice...saves me a little money. 

I will be getting the mobile base too. Looks like those bases only have the screw-down feet on one side, like this pic:










Stupid question: Wont' the table be unlevel with only two feet holding it up? Or is the base designed with the wheels on the other side higher up to compensate? Would hate to have this awesome saw and it's crooked.

I'm going to go with a 3HP/220v model. Will need to get a 220v outlet professionally installed in the garage (to satisfy the homeowner insurance) but that's a small price to pay for 3HP goodness.

OH BY THE WAY, Lowes just left. They filled out my return paperwork, handed me a copy and very unceremoniously threw the saw/parts into the back of the truck. I was happy to see it go. The refund to my CC should be done by COB Monday, then a few days after that it should show on the CC. Looking forward to it.


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## RJweb (Feb 25, 2011)

Mike,
now you have everyone excited again, what model grizzly are you going to order? And good luck with this installment of " Buying a new Table Saw "


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Glad Lowe's followed through for you. Too bad it didn't work out, but it sounds like it might be a blessing in disguise if it prompted you to take the leap for a 3hp Grizzly cabinet saw. :thumbsup:


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Well, I guess you could say that Lowes followed through...sort of. They came and picked up the saw, which was nice. But it took me waiting 3 weeks and calling/investigating for them to find out that the 35990C was backordered until end-Jan. If I wouldn't have bugged them I'd still be waiting. Possibly, I could've found this out 3 weeks ago? We'll never know, I guess.

But yeah, everything happens for a reason. I was so excited about the Steel City TS and this whole experience has been a real let down and time waster. It just wasn't meant to be. With them being backordered (at least with Lowes) until end-January that's another sign that the SC brand wasn't meant for me. 

I'm looking primarly at the Grizzly G0690 and the G1023RL. For $100 more the G0690 has a higher rpm motor (3400 vs. 4300rpm...not sure how much that matters). The G0690's motor is also a "Leeson" motor. Is that a special brand? The G0690 also comes with both standard and dado inserts...it all adds up when buying separately. I don't care for the on/off switch on the G0690 though...I much prefer the big paddle-type off switch. Splitting hairs, I know. That's just me though. I wonder if Grizzy would swap out the switch at no cost? Worth asking, I guess.

I'm also looking at the G1023RLW, which adds a built-in router table. Not too sure on that though. I've only used freestanding router tables; never one built-in to a TS. I'd also have to buy the extension for the mobile base for this saw. Probably won't get it, but it's good to consider everything.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I can help with some of those question*

I'm with you on the paddle switch being easier and safer. The 690 has a contactor type switch if I'm seeing it right and will drop out of operation when the power goes out and not restart. The Leeson motor is USA made and is a premium motor. However, I don't hear any complaints about Grizzly's imported motors or have any complaints of my own. 
Regarding a built in router table... I have one, but I don't use the same fence as is on the table saw. You don't want to reset your router table after getting it just right to make another rip on the table saw, because you ran short of stock. JMO.
I also have free standing router tables and love them also, but I see a 4" or so hole for the router bits and that would mean you need a router with top of the table height control and possibly you may need to drill an access hole for that? I donno. My free standing tables have rectangular hole for router lifts and that's what I prefer. The good side is, it's a cast iron extension and that's great whether you end up using it as a router or not.

I often "hip" switch my saw "off" because I can with the paddle.
If you get the other one, you can "sticky" a larger round disc on the off button as I did on a Powermatic.  bill

Check out this review from the Grizz site: http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1023RLW/reviews/


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Leeson is a well regarded name in motors, but it's worth noting that this is one of their Chinese made motors, not the US made version....still a good motor AFAIK. 

I doubt they'll change out the switches at no charge, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. 

(started this note about two hours ago...sorry if I'm late to the party!)
Here's a look at the guts of each. The G0690 looks to be a modified version of the original G1023, which was based on the original Unisaw design. The G1023RL looks like a total redesign from the ground up. FWIW, the G0690 is the same as the Laguna.

Original G1023:









G0690:









Revised G1023RL:


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

Thadius856 said:


> Was about to say... couldn't you just slap a laser wheel on it?
> 
> Did you put lasers on both sides, or just one?


Only on the outside of the blade. Not real sure if its a good idea to put one on both sides of the blade or up against the flange at the motor.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Another 2 cents about used saws...

...the bang for the buck is certainly there. Mostly because you have to spend time tuning/adjusting it much more than one out of the box. I just spent half a day doing the initial tune-up on my old Model 10: adjusting the fence, tilt arbor, tilt gauge, blade height lock down knob, belt alignment, wing alignment, fence travel, outfeed table, etc etc. If I were a pro with work available and lined up, my time would be money, and I'd have to add the cost of the machine. However, I'm just a hobbyist, so you can't really beat free, even if it takes a full day to tune it up.

After chopping up 7 sheets on it, we went to hit the switch for the 8th and received a good jolt. Turns out sawdust had worked its way into the switch box and insulted the contacts from the switch box. When we moved the saw between the 7th and 8th sheet, the sawdust fell out, and the 220 arced into the side of the box. Luckily it was grounded on the switch-to-wall run, the motor-to-switch run and at the receptacle, so we only got a minor shock. Ten cents of electrical tape and 20 minutes of labor fixed the issue, but it was still a good example of the rigor of buying well-used tools.


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## mikeintexas (Oct 25, 2011)

Thadius856: That was a close call! Glad to hear that everything was properly grounded and nobody got hurt. It's so important that the electrical is done correctly; it's literally a lifesaver.

*BUSINESS WITH LOWES IS CONCLUDED*

As you know, Lowes picked up the saw yesterday. I was told that the driver would turn in his paperwork, then on Monday the admin folks would credit my CC for the amount of purchase. Late yesterday afternoon the store manager on duty called me. "Yeah, we'd like to just refund your purchase in cash. Can you come in and get the money?" So I went there after dinner last night, got a few forced smiles from the manager and my money, to the penny. Done.

While I originally wanted them just credit my CC, this actually worked out better. I have the cash and will deposit it tomorrow, then pay off CC, then buy the new saw. When I buy my new Grizzly (still deciding on which one, but probably the G0690) I'll start a new thread.

Thank you, everyone, for all the support and advice you've given and just for listening to me. You really helped me out. :yes:

Mike


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## tito5 (Apr 5, 2011)

hopefully you get points on your cc....lol


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## Allthenamesrused (Jul 24, 2011)

I bought my table saw from SC. When I got it home and unpacked it, I also had issues with table alignment as well as the power switch not operating correctly. The fault wasn't SC's though. The saw had been dropped on its side during shipping. The alignment problem I was able to resolve myself but the power switch required a call to SC. I was pleasantly surprised when one of the owners called me from his house in Toronto in the evening. With the wiring diagram in front of him he talked me through the disassembly of the power switch. We discovered that as a result of the fall, the internal workings of the switch had been jammed such that the switch was always on. A quick 5 minute procedure had my saw up and running.

Some time later I had an issue with my saw turning off unexpectedly. Once again a call, and once again personal help. The issue was resolved in a matter of minutes.

What I'm saying is that I love my SC saw and I have nothing but the highest regard for SC's customer service. You should call them again.


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> I'm not quite sure of your point here.
> On this forum *countless *times Grizzly has been mentioned as the "Best Bang for the Buck" good quality, good customer service, low price, and ships to your door. Now, as far as table saws the bottom of the Grizzly line is at $500.00, while the top of the line is over $5,000.00, so the saw mentioned a 1023, about $1200.00 is near the bottom as far as price. It's new, has a warranty and is very well built. I'm certain you can find a used Delta, Powermatic, or General cabinet saw for a less and tune/recondition it to look and work like new, that's also a choice. I've done it both ways and find a "new tool" in the shop has slightly more appeal to me personally.


I wasn't being critical of anyone, I was just stating that either new or used there is "bang for the buck" product lines. I like the way "mikeintexas" has worked through the process here so I am definitely not critical. My rambling is that of an older guy who might have learned a lesson or two saved some money because of it. People get all strange when the buying juices start flowing and sometimes are not rational. Some absolutely demand top of the line, some demand the best rock bottom price of whatever they buy. I'm quickly learning if your not careful that woodworking can be like boating, a "boat is just a big hole in the water to pour money". I've been there and done that.

As for Grizzly I luv em, want their stuff, already own a Grizzly jointer and found their support people are very friendly and helpful even when I bought their product used. I want to trade up on my recently bought $100 used cheapo Harbor Freight band saw to a Grizzly. So you won't find me "runnin down" Grizzly products.


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