# Flame Boxelder Logging



## TexasTimbers

*Flame Boxelder Logging Video*

I need to edit it some more. But make sure you have ten minutes to waste before you start watching it because it's that long. I like the music better than the video.


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## Daren

I can see why you spent so much time on the trailer with the skidsteer...that was the only place you weren't up to your belly pan in mud :laughing:. That little stump/crotch is sweet :thumbsup:.


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## Mike

Ok whats with the penguins?


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## TexasTimbers

Man I don't know for sure on the penguin deal (around here our the locals pronounce it "panguns"). My wife really likes them so I have kinda got fond of them too.

I used that image also in a post here, comparing it to some pictures of some redbud Daren posted. I just stuck 'em in there on a whim. How come you didn't ask about the battleship? :laughing:


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## TexasTimbers

Daren said:


> That little stump/crotch is sweet :thumbsup:.


My Italian friend saw it and called me this morning. Those two bookmatched end grain slabs you see in the video are going to Italy and will be in his international show in June. 

He asked me to dry them but I am afraid to put them in the kiln with the other lumber. I have 4 species in there now. I want to build several smaller kilns where I can dry stuff like that. And should I be afarid to dry them too quickly? Any ideas?


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## Marko

:thumbsup: whats with the Battleship?:thumbsup:


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## Marko

cardboardbox with a floodlight and fan.........or you can mail them to me:thumbsup:. 2 weeks in my shop'll crack 'er I mean "dry" anything...:yes: than I will forward them on to Italy or as my Grandmother used to say "It'ly".


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## TexasTimbers

Thanks for asking! :laughing: 

I have just always been a fan of Capital Warships, and especially battleships. I can spout of boring facts about most of the modern (WWI to present) battle wagons. If you ask me my favorite I have to say the "Battleship" Texas, which is actually the last surviving Dreadnought on the planet - albiet the wikipedia cite is somewhat in error claiming it to be _"The oldest surviving dreadnought"_ . . . 










And the Humongous, and elegantly gorgeous _Yamato_ of the WWII IJN - which in my own estimation was easily the most beautiful modern day warship ever built . . . .


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## TexasTimbers

I missed your post on the cardboard box suggestion. Have you done this? I can't take chances with this stuff you would not believe what pieces like this fetch even green with these globe-trotter types. This guy - and many of his buddies that he met this way - travel the globe year round buying wood. 
I have been fortunate to make his acquantanice, and others like him. I don't want to promise him a piece only to ruin it. I am thinking of sening it to a vaccum kiln and paying to have it done. I know a guy from another forum that does it for a living. But for future reference if you have used this cardboard box and light and fan personally tell me more about what you have dired. Did you keep records and weigh the pieces before and after etc.?


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## Daren

TexasTimbers said:


> I know a guy from another forum that does it for a living.


Den ? If the Italian guy is footing the bill (and for a piece like that, I am sure he is not shy about spending some Euros) I think I would send it to a vacuum kiln too. I think it would air dry just fine...but it doesn't sound like you have the time.


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## TexasTimbers

Yes Den. Crafting an email now.


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## Hack

Dang, it looks like you almost went OTF (over the front) at one point in that skid steer 

Great looking wood!


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## lucas.j.dunton

TT just watched your vid and just curious I have done quite a bit of "back 40 logging" mainly for firewood, and used to use a 4 wheeler ( Polaris sportsman 500) and a rope to twitch the logs into the field and right up a dirt ramp onto the trailer. did this with full length trees (some 40' plus) and seems like it was much easier and quicker then trying to maneuver a skidsteer through the woods, not sure if you have tried something like this but 8-12 foot logs you could easily drag 2-3 at a time out and use the skidsteer to load em up i could log 10-20 cord this way in a weekend (that is hauled to the house and cut into firewood length ) by myself


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## Marko

TT,I have done this with Madrone Burl in a 4/4 thickness to12%-14%(Alot of movement even in the clamps).Then I finished it off in my "DN" Dry Kiln.I did it because I was anxious to turn a call with the Madrone burl,which I did successfully.I have "NOT" done this enough or kept records.After reading about your dilemna and what you have riding on this,I'm actually sorry I mentioned it.......but it does work to a degree,I have never tried to dry anything else this way or to any lower %.It's basically a "hillbillly fix" for drier wood.Better than the Micro oven though.Much more controlledI didn't pay for the Madrone and never considered a worse case scenario so I set up a big box ontop of the dry kiln threw in a 150w flood a small fanand proceeded to dry an 1"x4"x8" hunk of "Mad Burl".That wood went through some changes to the likes of some contortionist or something but it did work to a degree that left alittle to be desired but got me in wood.Was it worth it?The education is priceless, but I haven't tried it again since....and I don't think you should either........use the vac kiln........:thumbsup: Mark


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## stuart

Hey Texas Timbers,

Aside from the vid and all... I got to ask you if you have the book called: Battle at[or of]the Midway


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## TexasTimbers

Hack said:


> Dang, it looks like you almost went OTF (over the front) at one point in that skid steer


I was wondering when someone would mention that. I didn't edit that out. Unfortunately, this camera will only record 1, 2, or 3 minute vids (its replacement is on the way as we speak). I could not for the life of me remember how to set it to 3 minutes. Everytime you change batteries it reverts back to the factory default settings and since we were in the woods I didn't have the manual. :sad: 

The next scene where you see me driving off is _maybe_ 4 seconds after the tilt. I tipped my wife off before she started filming that she had to watch for it every minute to stop and store. The minute had been reached at that exact point when I tilted, and the camera automatically stores the clip - takes all of 2 seconds to store , and then the wife hit the record button again. I did not lose a single log off the forks believe it or not. I just lowered my forks (which actually meant the rear coming back down to earth since the forks and logs were on the ground) and eased the joysticks forward as I did. It would have freaked me out when I first started driving the thing but it's no big deal at all now.




lucas.j.dunton said:


> . . . . seems like it was much easier and quicker then trying to maneuver a skidsteer through the woods . . .


John, thanks for the suggestions. When I said we went in there on a whim I wasn't joking. Not only did we not bring the camera operators manual, we (she isn't here now I will say "we" instead of "me") also did jnot bring our tongs. I drag them out of there with a pair of tongs I attach to the plate. i never have to get out of the cab. I can drive up to log and lower the tongs right on it in a second and off I go. I also have a grapple that I can grab the ends with and oit works too but not as fast and effecient as the tongs. 



Marko said:


> . . .I'm actually sorry I mentioned it.......


You shouldn't be that's how we exchange ideas. I would not have tried it without asking your level of confidence in it like I did. I have a email into the guy Daren and I know I'll keep ya'll apprised of how that goes.


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## TexasTimbers

stuart said:


> Hey Texas Timbers,
> 
> Aside from the vid and all... I got to ask you if you have the book called: Battle at[or of]the Midway


I hate to say no because I might have it. I have a number, 30 to 40, of military books I have never "gotten around to". I used to be a member of the Military Book Club if that explains the large number of them., Only have read about 4 of them. If I do have it I know I haven't read it though. 

Is it a good one? I guess it would have to be. How could you tell the story of Midway and screw that up! All you' have to do is present the cold hard facts of everything and it is still a story better than fiction. Most people do not realise the "battle" occured over a 3 or 4 day period. .


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## stuart

Yes that was a major major battle battle of the Midway [I believe there's also a movie based that event]. My father had a hard cover book of it with all the black and white photos. I used to rush thru the book for many years without reading it page after page.
I got a good idea about it. If I understood it rightly it was that battle that "turned the tide" for USA navy fleet over the Jap's fleet.
My impression was the book was heavy and lots lots of pages. [It would take all summer to read IMO].
Nimtz the Admirial was the chief of this area of making sure when to take this action and how much supply[power]. Most of his, if not all, choices were right on the money.
I think he was even outnumbered.

Personally I rather read about the Pacific stage than the U-boats .vs. Allies in the Atlantic, that just my perference.
I would bet my last dollar Texas Timber that bookstores have them or the library. It is heavy read but the pixs tells a lot.


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## Thalweg

*Flame Boxelder*

Hey TT, that flame boxelder sure is beautiful wood. I've never seen it before (except on this site) and became a bit curious about it. I did a Google search on it, and most of the links point back to you (I think), and I didn't see anything on the trees. Is this a special species of boxelder, or is it "regular" boxelder that has developed the red characteristic for some reason? I guess all boxelder could have red centers and I wouldn't know any better, as I don't think we have them in my neck of the woods. So I was also wondering where these trees grow. Are they pretty much indiginous to Texas? Just curious.


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## TexasTimbers

Well, I have not found anyone who has even heard of a section of woods with this many red ones in it. I have found a couple of instances of it but in onsies and twosies. I found one post dating to 2003 in a forum I can't remember the name of it, where a guy had pictures of two trees he found that had the same pattern and redness mine do, but that's it. 
I am pretty sure I have figured out why these are as red as they are, and what conditions to look for. 

These are "regular" Acer Negundo yes, but they jhave been attacked by the Ambrosia Beetle. the part is, _why_ the beetle has decided to invade this whole section of woods and that's the part I have figured out. 
I have an abstract, a very lengthy one, where two scientists from the Univeristy of Minnesota Department of Plant Pathology, tried to induce the red stains in live trees using all mannor of innoculations and fungi, mushrooms, everything yoiu could think of. I learned some interesting things reading it, but they could learn a thing or two from me. They have made two erroneous assumptions in their research, but i do not see why I should contact them and correct them. After all, it would not do me any good to help them solve the mystery and be able to grow this stuff. Here's some excerpts:

_Pigmentation is localized around branch scars, frost cracks and wounds caused by insects or animals, such as sapsuckers (Sphyrapicus varius) (3,7). It is thought that these localized areas of discolored wood coalesce over time creating a large, central stained column within the tree (Fig. 2). Colors range from light pink to dark red, but the stain fades over time when exposed to light. Red stain in boxelder is of special interest to woodworkers who use the attractive stained wood for decorative purposes (Fig. 3). The stain does not appear to cause significant loss of structural integrity in the sapwood (6)._​ 



_Fusarium reticulatum Mont., formerly known as F. negundi Sherb. and F. reticulatum Mont. var. negundinis (Sherb.) Wollenw., has been reported as the causal agent of red stain despite the fact that researchers have been unable to reproduce the stain by inoculating boxelder wood blocks with Fusarium spp. (3,6,7,10). Moreover, Hubert (6), who first isolated and reported F. reticulatum as the causal agent, later questioned his own findings (7). The ubiquitous presence and the unique discoloration pattern of red stain in boxelder suggest that some other agent may be responsible for the stain. For example, a discoloration pattern similar to that in boxelder occurs in sugar maple (A. saccharum Marsh.) in the absence of fungi as a result of bird pecks, nails driven into trees, and injections with distilled water and copper sulfate (5). The pattern of staining in boxelder is also similar to the discoloration observed in many other species of deciduous trees (2,15). Therefore, this study was undertaken in an attempt to elucidate the true cause of red stain in boxelder._​ 

_Efforts have been made to characterize the chemical composition of the red pigment in boxelder; however, this has not been possible due to the instability of the compound (12). If the compound is a phenol, as we suspect, the oxidation of wounded cells may explain the localized areas of red stained wood frequently found around wounds and branch scars in boxelder (8,16). It is also possible that microorganisms, such as F. solani, stimulate the tree’s natural host response to elicit the chemical reactions in the wounded tissue (15,16). _​
_The results from this study provide evidence that red stain in boxelder is not caused by F. reticulatum as previously recorded in the literature. Instead, the stain appears to be produced by the tree as a non-specific host response. Future research is needed to characterize the chemical properties of the pigment in order to ascertain its structure and function. In addition, researchers should examine the biological activity of the pigment to better understand how the compound influences microbial colonization of boxelder. Future research should also determine how microorganisms, such as F. solani, might stimulate and enhance pigment production._​This may be more information than you were looking for but it answers your questions better than i can. Thge bottom line is this stuff is RARE. And obviously highly valuable. I mean, this one abstract gives voluminous references to previous works and refernce material where the discussion is centered around mimicking, or inducing the red stain in the trees, obviously for the purpose of a commercial business enterprise. 

So far as I can tell, I am sitting on the biggest bunch of them and with no doubt the most prolific reds, blacks, yellows, and patterns anywhere. If they exist like this elsewhere in this high number of trees I have not heard about it yet. My sawmill site actually does not get that many visitors, but I get a high percentage of orders from those visitors because anyone doing a search for boxelder is already wanting some. i don't have to try and make a sale it's already done before I get their email.


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## Thalweg

Thanks TT. Thats very interesting. I had some plant biology classes in college, and that illustrates to me how much I've forgotten. Kind of makes my brain hurt. But ultimately your answer suggests to me that I'm highly unlikly to ever stumble across any of this anywhere other than your sawmill. I'll tuck that info away, and if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll stop by and buy some pieces. I've never gotten used to the idea of ordering lumber over the internet.


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