# Need help building a custom piece of equipment



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

I began making bee equipment for sale in order to fund my ever expanding beekeeping and woodworking hobbies (which I think compliment each other quite well). If you know nothing about beekeeping equipment, there are "standard" sizes, which generally look like this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=beek...20&start=21&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:33,s:0,i:185

It uses 3/4" finger joints, each with a 3/32" hole in the center of the finger. I have been cutting all of my finger joints one by one on a sled on my table saw. I have a cheap, underpowered table saw, so I upgraded to a Steel City (which should be shipping any day now). That should enable me to do 4 boards at once, instead of one at a time. But, doing each finger at a time, and each hole drilled at a time is time consuming and is limiting my production. So I need a machine that can cut all 5 dado cuts, and make all 5 drill ones in one pass. Most machines I've seen that can accomplish this run $50k to $150k, and are fully automated. I need something much less.

I've been able to find this:





It does the trick for the finger joints, but not the holes. It also cuts ONE side of the board, but i need something that will cut the fronts and the sides (staggered slightly).

So, I was hoping to build my own machine. Here's what I had in mind:
1. Build a basic table saw, home made, out of wood
2. Use a long 5/8" arbor bolt that is the full width of the table saw
3. Stack 5 dado blades into the bolt, each set at 3/4" cut and spaced apart 3/4"
4. Permanently fix the blades into a 3/4" deep cut
5. Have the bolt powered by a belt attached to a 7 hp motor

That would solve my dado cutting problems, but I'm not sure if I can do it. Here are my thoughts:
1. Is it going to be a problem that the table saw is made out of wood? Will it be sturdy enough?
2. Is 7 hp going to be powerful enough?
3. Should I use dedicated cutter heads instead of a series of dado blades?

There is also the issue of the holes. I was hoping that I could position five drill bit heads secured through a board, 90 degrees from the table saw face (so if you were standing at the table saw, the drill bits would be facing you but on the opposite side of the saw). Then have each drill bit head attached to a bolt, that is attached to a belt and powered by a separate 5 hp motor. I wanted to go with a 5 spindle head mounted onto a standard drill press, but a sales rep told me it would run about $2k, which is costly for just the drill holes.

Do you think this is workable?

Or, would I be better off trying to purchase and modify one of the above "green machines"?

Any assistance would be helpful. I need to be able to make more of these boxes faster, without spending $100k on an automated machine. There has to be a way that I can build a machine that can make them faster than they would on a sled one by one (or drilling holes one by one) but without costing an arm and a leg to get it there.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's a sizable project*

Unless you have machining and welding skills or access to someone who does, I'd try yo find a used or older machine like the "green" one in the video. I found this link: 
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Machinery_for_Cutting_Box_Joints.html



As you can see it's a serious machine! Do a search on "haunchers" and see what you get. http://www.machinesales.com/machinery/haunchers/0000001773

Your idea of a ganged blade arbor is certainly doable, but as you already know it will take some substantial shafts, bearings and HP. The manner of moving the work into the cutter makes more sense than visa-versa. 

The ganged rip saws made by Foley Belsaw and Woodmaster, makers of planers which then can add a rip saw accessory come to mind as a starting point, if you were to make your own You only need a 3/4" deep groove, so no need for a large diameter dado head with lots of rotating mass...JMO. The cutterheads on the planer could be set up with 3/4" wide individual cutters spaced at 3/4" intervals possibly. 

 

Overall the green machine does a great job and doesn't look that complicated. I'd try to find one or duplicate that design.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

My thoughts are to look for a used machine designed for this purpose. The moulders like Woodmaster and F/B, and W/H might be a bit underpowered to do this operation. There would likely not be enough height available to gang cut. You would also have a problem with supporting the group as it's being milled, if it fit through.









 







.


----------



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Thank you for doing your homework woodnthings! Impressive.

Haunchers are what bee boxes were made of 50 years ago. I've looked for and tried to purchase one, but I haven't been able to find one for sale under $20k (that makes 3/4" fingers). Now, most mass producers have moved to an automated system. From what I could tell, when they were getting rid of their haunchers, they didn't want anyone else to compete against them with a cheap hauncher (and there wouldn't be too many people that could use it) so they disposed of them for scrap. Sad thought.

I actually wanted to purchase a "green machine", but the original maker has disappeared. I haven't been able to find him. I'd rather spend the $3,500 he was asking for it than to redesign the wheel, but I don't think I will be able to avoid it.

I have zero welding skills. I have a friend that may be able to do it though, but I'm not too confident. I could ask him to duplicate the design, then add the drill bits for the holes, but I have a feeling that it would be easier to build a ganged dado blade table saw than it would to redesign the green machine. I could be wrong though.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Send this guy a PM*

I have a friend from this forum, BWSmith who is very creative and lives in W VA, off the Parkway. He would be able to talk with you regarding a modification or build. Great fellow he is! 
He has fabrication skills and the equipment. See what he says....:yes:


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

How about mounting a series of router in a long table in a long diagonal.

The router would dictate the spacing to the next router.

You would gang the sides together on end. Have a fence on either side, then push the gang down the fence. Each router would cut one slot.

Ugly, but cheap.

Not sure about the holes. If these are for nails, could you just use a pneumatic nailer and avoid the need for holes. If they are for screws, I can see the desire for a hole.


----------



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

I sent BWSmith a message yesterday, I'll let you know what he says. Thanks!

I'm not too sure the router idea would work too well. The base of the routers would be well beyond the 1.5" radius necessary to have them all lined up. Most are well beyond 3", meaning I couldn't have two rows of routers lined up. Pushing the boards into a router, only to have it come free, then go into another router, then come free, then into another . . . . sounds potentially dangerous, especially after I now have to reach over other spinning router bits. That and I'd have to build a custom table anyway. This idea would help me avoid a large HP motor, but at what cost.

As far as the holes go, unfortunately they are a necessary evil. When assembling boxes for personal use, I don't drill the holes and just use a nail gun or a stapler. If the boards warp some, I'll use screws (warped wood works just fine, after all it'll be used to house bugs ). But these boxes are for re-sale. The boxes are sold unassembled. Most of the people that buy them don't want to go through the hassle of drilling holes for screws (if that's what they use) or using a nail gun. They want to drop a nail in the hole and hammer it through. If that's what they want, so be it.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I think you could make a Dodds dovetailer cut all the box joints, but then you would need to take it to a line boring machine.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Doing another TS slider conversion right now.

So,anythings possible...if you put your mind to it.If you want to talk it over I'll PM you my phone #.

With a few exceptions(and there are some),you don't want to reinvent the wheel."Scaling,up or down" on existing patterns/designs to suit the specific job is probably going to be the "fastest" route.Not saying its the best....but it is faster.But in some cases technology has circumvented the evolutionary process.....(machines to build buggy whips)....or where CNC stopped further manual machine design.This,I think is where you might see some gains over older machines.Not sayin they don't work...its that their designs sometimes could've been improved,had the need occurred.

I am familiar with the subject(Bee bxs).


----------



## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

i can't help with alot of the stuff, but i can mention that the katie jig and 2 routers can crank off dovetails very quickly.

for the holes, maybe something with drill chucks mounted onto 1/2" pillow blocks, driven by pulleys might let you do multiple holes at a time. how far apart are the holes?


----------



## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

or maybe a multi drill head ...


----------



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

BWSmith, thank you for the reply. I'm going to give you a call whenever I can find a time to do it that isn't 1) late at night or 2) during dinner. I should have some time this weekend though. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

I should make one thing clear though, these boxes aren't for personal use. While I do use them personally, the design is for resale. Keeping that in mind, if I were assembling myself I wouldn't drill holes, I would just use a nail gun. But the consumer doesn't have a nail gun, and they aren't building it themselves. Hence the need to drill a hole for them. 

Also, I appreciate the comments on the dovetail jigs, but I can't make dovetail joints. I have to make finger joints. Finger joints on bee boxes are standard in the industry. Dovetail joints sell for a lesser price, and are much less desireable. Who knows why. 



Chris Curl said:


> or maybe a multi drill head ...


I actually contacted a company called AutoDrill (in NJ) that makes custom drill applications, and asked what their opinion was. They said the best option would be to go with a multi drill head. But, they said fabricating it would cost approx. $2,000.00 to have it fit on a standard drill press. When you add the cost of the drill press, it becomes somewhat pricey. Still worth it, in my opinion, based on what I use it for. But if I could get that same application incorporated into another machine, at a lower cost (i.e. not using a fabricated multi drill head, but instead using a belt driven system), all the better.

Part of the problem I'm having is with the economics of the machine. I sell about 4 boxes a week right now. Meaning 16 different joints, or 32 different finger sets. That becomes teadeous to do on a table saw sled, but still doable (if not time consuming). The problem will be when I get to 8 or 10 boxes a week. Or more. Then the time to do the box joints becomes too costly, and I need a machine to do it. But at 8 boxes a week, if I'm making $4 profit off each box, it doesn't make sense for me to drop $20,000 on a dedicated machine. It would take me ~ 10 years of profit (at that point) to pay it off. So I'm kinda stuck in the middle at that point, it's too costly for me to spend the time making them one by one, but too costly for me to buy a commercial machine. That's where I need something in the middle. One day I probably will be selling 10-20-40 boxes a week. Who knows. But I'd like to start building toward that now, getting ready.

And I do sell other equipment, not just boxes. So don't think I'm planning a business around $32 a week in profit, lol.

I hope any of that makes sense.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the economy of limited run production*

Your last sentence scares me... $32.00 a week profit.  You Got To Be Kiddin' :yes:

You need some creative design/engineering help to come up with a process that will make limited runs, of 10 -20 at a time that won't break your bank. Maybe BW can help as he fits both those qualifiactions....I doono?
There is plenty of older machine equipment that I think would suit your needs, you just have to locate it, rather than buying new or having it custom built. A modification on an older machine is what I'm thinking about.

Another approach would be a laser cut metal temple for an end mill router. You clamp your stack of pieces on end ...up to 5-6 at a time and use the template to rout all the fingers at once. It will go pretty quickly. 
I can see a multi-drill driven by gears, a multi-groove flat belt serpentine fashion, or round belt like the old sewing machines used ....no chucks because of the spacing. You could use the hex shaft drill bits for the 1/4" hex drill quick change battery drills in roller or ball bearings... You gotta be creative here. :yes: Disregard the taper slots for the dovetails but think the parallel slots like these:


----------



## Fuddmaster (Jan 25, 2012)

This seems like an interesting project! My first thought would be go to my buddy who's dads company makes automated machinery for like assembly lines. Seems to be right up their ally. 
Depending on your holes you can put a drill on like a sliding rod. And rotate your work on the table. Drill your hole and then slide down to the next hole. 
Idk much about this stuff. But if you can't keep up with production wouldn't you want to raise your price? $4 a box doesn't seem like a lot of profit for the work. 
Good luck with your project!


----------



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Your last sentence scares me... $32.00 a week profit.  You Got To Be Kiddin' :yes:


Lol, no, it's much better than that. After the cost of wood, materials, and wear and tear on equipment (but not counting labor) I'm projecting a 49.5% profit margin. Right now I'm selling ~ $150-200 worth of items a week. That's with zero advertising and zero market presence, in the second month of operation. Down side is sales are occurring on ebay only, which is taking the top 15% of my profits. But it's really just in the initial concept phase. I'm working on getting a greater local market presence. Just planning for the future.



woodnthings said:


> Another approach would be a laser cut metal temple for an end mill router. You clamp your stack of pieces on end ...up to 5-6 at a time and use the template to rout all the fingers at once. It will go pretty quickly.


I thought about this, but figured the time it would take to set up 5 or 6 boards on the jig may take some considerable time, defeating the purpose of running multiple boards at a time. If the last board is slightly off, the fingers won't fit. Most of the wood I'm using isn't optimum, but good for agricultural use. So some of the wood may be slightly cupped, or so. That makes things more difficult. I ran into that problem by putting 4 boards on the table saw jig that I had. The one closest to me cut fine. If the third was slightly warped, it's fingers would be off, throwing board #4's fingers even further off. But if I did each one individually I didn't have that problem.

Likely my jig sucks though.



woodnthings said:


> I can see a multi-drill driven by gears, a multi-groove flat belt serpentine fashion, or round belt like the old sewing machines used ....no chucks because of the spacing. You could use the hex shaft drill bits for the 1/4" hex drill quick change battery drills in roller or ball bearings...


That's actually exactly what I was thinking!


----------



## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Fuddmaster said:


> Idk much about this stuff. But if you can't keep up with production wouldn't you want to raise your price? $4 a box doesn't seem like a lot of profit for the work.


$4 a box doesn't seem like alot of profit for the work. Mainly because it isn't. 

But there is more to this market than just profit per box. There are main competitors that drive the prices (generally). I can match their prices but still be more profitable than they are if I don't have the overhead they do. They make up for it in volume, while I don't have to. I do it as a hobby, so if I make $100 a week now it's just spare change to pay for equipment, allowing me to grow to the point where I'm making $2,000 a week and can afford to do it full time.

Plus, the profit margin per BOX is significantly less than the profit margin on everything else. I can make $4-8 per bottom board, inner cover, outer cover, ect. but it takes me a fraction of the time to make those than it does to make a box. But you have to offer the box in order to get them to purchase the other items. Hence, it's important to make the boxes as efficiently as possible, so you aren't losing money in time on those items.


----------

