# My Thien baffle



## ChiknNutz

So after seeing the great success many have had with this approach, I decided that I wanted to get in on it as well. So as I set out to accumulate the various pcs/parts, I found out that the dust ports are quite hard to come by locally. I had originally reserved myself to ordering them online, but then took a chance and visited the local hardware store. Come to find out, a standard 2.5" shop vac hose fits perfectly inside of a 2" PVC fitting. So with that determined, I set out to build my own Thien Baffle.

I used 3/4" MDF as I have a bunch of it. For the fittings, used std Sch 40 PVC, but used threaded ftgs rather than glue together type. Also used 1/4-20 all-thread for the spacers/fasteners. Note that I routed a rabbet under each ftg as the threads are just barely long enough to make a good connection. Though it would work w/o the step, I wanted more threads to engage. The center one I actually made too deep (down to 3/8" thk) but that ended up being a good thing after all as the pipe threads of the ftgs lock down before tightening on the MDF. What this does is allows the ctr ftg to swivel so the hose doesn't kink so easily. The outside elbow ftg is tight as I made the rabbet about 5/8" thk which allows the threads to tighten on the MDF. So far, I am not sure if the ctr ftg protruding down is a good thing or not WRT the airflow and cyclonic action. I guess time will tell as I use it more.



















You'll notice that I rounded the top edge of the bottom baffle plate. Not sure if it will do anything good or bad, but my thought is to help the debris fall into the bottom a little easier.










The bucket is a bit larger than 5 gallons, it is a leftover from some pool chemicals, I'd guess it is more like 7 or 8 gallons.









The Ridgid shopvac filter as it was before using the baffle (some is the MDF dust from making the baffle).









What was in the shopvac









Contents dumped on floor (note that this is just general shop cleanup, not just woodworking dust, but paper, plastic, glass, etc.).









Shopvac after dumping on the floor.









Shopvac filter after cleaning it (banging it clean outside)









The results after vacuuming up the whole pile. Honestly, it didn't fare so well in this case as it did end up getting plugged and I had to shut it down once to unclog the baffle. Not surprising really. But notice that there is much less in here than what there was originally.









Shopvac contents after first try of cleaning up the whole pile. Again, notice that there is much less in here than what there was originally.









Bucket contents after first try of cleaning up the whole pile. The bulk of it is here for sure.









Now, I don't take this as a failure since this is first test is atypical of the expectation of the baffle. It did fail with a huge amount of various debris being consumed at one time, but after I tried it a second and third time with the shavings and dust left on my saws and the like, the baffle proved to work every bit as good as everyone else has been seeing.


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## Kenbo

Looks like you've got a nice little seperator there. Good job.


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## dmh

Looks great! Lately I've been playing with this stuff also and would bet your results would benefit from trimming the center port flush with the top. Just an idea to try.


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## firemedic

Nice one, Nutz...

~tom  ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Brink

Wow, I'm intrigued. I think I need to experiment with one.


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## RetiredLE

Your system should have worked a bit more efficiently than what I am seeing in the photos...... 

Stupid question... did you hook up the vacuum suction hose to the center fitting?


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## ChiknNutz

RetiredLE said:


> Your system should have worked a bit more efficiently than what I am seeing in the photos......
> 
> Stupid question... did you hook up the vacuum suction hose to the center fitting?


Refer to my last comment in my initial post. Yes, it was hooked up properly...center hose to vacuum source, outer hose to pickup.

The issue is that I simply try to shove too much [email protected] thru it at one time, which plugged it up and let a lot more go thru than it normally would. This may be a limitation of the concept or just the size of the baffle in relation to the amount of debris being consumed. The pile of waste I started with was about 3 or 4 gallons worth of debris...including broken glass, plastic, wood scraps, shavings, dust, gravel, etc. I was not gentle when vacuuming it up, I just jammed the hose into the pile and sucked it up as fast as it would go (that sounds almost x-rated, I know ;-)

I am also unsure if the OD of the bottom baffle plate (the 120 degree bit) actually hugs the side of the bucket as there is no good way to verify once the whole assy is in the bucket. However, I think my initial use of it is simply not a good judge of it's intended use...which to me is for typical woodworking debris in small to medium batches. Having said that, not sure how well it might do if used with a planer, at least this small version. It would likely work better when scaled up for use on a larger trash-can or true dust collector.

I didn't take more photos on my subsequent tests when vacuuming some small piles here and there, but it fared MUCH better. I now need to simply try it out with some typical woodworking operations (i.e. table saw, router, chop saw, etc.) and then see how well it works under what I would consider normal working conditions.

In any case, this was a fun project and I'd like to work on tweaking it some too. For a visual confirmation of it in action, I think I might cut out a large section of the bucket and put in some Lexan or clear acrylic. I think that would be pretty cool.


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## rrbrown

dmh said:


> Looks great! Lately I've been playing with this stuff also and would bet your results would benefit from trimming the center port flush with the top. Just an idea to try.


I agree cut that center pipe closer to the lid you probably are picking up the spinning debris but it's so close to the bottom. 

I also think playing withe the size of the cutout might help if needed. Just a little larger area for the debris to fall in when it comes in the baffle in larger clumps. I would shorten the center pipe first and see if it works better. I would use your first test or one similar to check it.


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## dbhost

I see your issue. The center pipe location / depth is fine, the air swirling around the outside should stay around the outside. I do however see 3 areas where you departed from Phil's design.

#1. The baffle is touching the bottom of the elbow. That WILL cause clogging. I know from first hand experience. Either raise the elbow, or drop the baffle at least 1".
#2. The elbow is too far inboard. Look at Phil's demo photo...








And then yours...








Do you see how part of his elbow is cut away? You want your elbow to HAVE to be cut away like that to avoid hitting the side of the container, that way the swirl is tight up against the side of the vessel, and not spun to the center...
And lastly #3. The drop slot appears to have a ramp that aims UP. I am not positive, it might just be an optical illusion, but I would think this would encourage scrubbing, albeit slightly, but still...









Some things will trip up a Thien separator (and a cyclone too from what I hear). In particular they are...

#1. Sucking up something that blocks the means to drop into the dust bin. In the case of mine, I sucked up a plastic grocery sack that clogged it and caused scrubbing... 
#2. Sucking up material too fast. I.E. don't shove the hose directly into a giant pile of shavings unless you WANT to have scrubbing...
#4. Interference with the cyclonic stream (such as your elbow) thus causing material to bypass and get sucked into the vacum...

Good luck, and post up your post, tuning results!


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## ChiknNutz

rrbrown said:


> I agree cut that center pipe closer to the lid you probably are picking up the spinning debris but it's so close to the bottom.
> 
> I also think playing withe the size of the cutout might help if needed. Just a little larger area for the debris to fall in when it comes in the baffle in larger clumps. I would shorten the center pipe first and see if it works better. I would use your first test or one similar to check it.


Another idea I have is to possibly EXTEND the center tube all the way to bottom baffle plate and then drill holes or cut slots in the tube all the way around. Not sure if this would offer any benefit or just be another potential clog-point.

As far as the perimeter debris slot of the bottom baffle, I used the 3/4" dimension that Kenbo used on his second attempt. I was tempted to make it a full inch, but left it to see how well it would work. Again, the only real "failure" I am seeing is with large quantities of debris over a very short time. I still have yet to really test it under typical conditions.


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## ChiknNutz

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

1) Phil's plan state to have the elbow just touch the top of the bottom baffle.
2) I didn't notice that part of it for some reason, I will trim the outbd side of elbow and turn it so that it rides the inside of the bucket.
3) The drop plate cutouts are square, not angled, so it is just an optical illusion. They did get radiused at the top though.


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## dbhost

ChiknNutz said:


> Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!
> 
> 1) Phil's plan state to have the elbow just touch the top of the bottom baffle.
> 2) I didn't notice that part of it for some reason, I will trim the outbd side of elbow and turn it so that it rides the inside of the bucket.
> 3) The drop plate cutouts are square, not angled, so it is just an optical illusion. They did get radiused at the top though.


Just noticed that. I found that a 1" gap under the elbow gives better separation. At least in mine...


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## rrbrown

ChiknNutz said:


> *Another idea I have is to possibly EXTEND the center tube all the way to bottom baffle plate and then drill holes or cut slots in the tube all the way around.* Not sure if this would offer any benefit or just be another potential clog-point.
> 
> As far as the perimeter debris slot of the bottom baffle, I used the 3/4" dimension that Kenbo used on his second attempt. I was tempted to make it a full inch, but left it to see how well it would work. Again, the only real "failure" I am seeing is with large quantities of debris over a very short time. I still have yet to really test it under typical conditions.


Your just asking for problems with that idea. clogs would be very possible. You might not have the correct flow which could cause problems.

I would still cut the middle pipe shorter not all the way up but maybe remove half of it.


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## klr650

A couple things I noticed that might help a bit.

I notice that one of the standoff bolts is right in the path of the debris flow. Possibly moving that out of the way might help with clogging and overall improve flow. In fact if you can you might consider moving all the standoffs to right around the vaccuum intake port in the center - it would get them out of the flow of air.

Something that I'm going to try sometime this week is to rather than have a constant diameter cut for debris, I'm going to try a spiral cut from 0 to 1" in an effort to induce a better vortex.


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## ChiknNutz

I made some mods to my baffle to aid in the overall performance. First off, I trimmed the elbow so that it sits closer to the side of the bucket and is at more of an angle now. I also trimmed out a section of the top lid and then installed a pc of polycarbonate or acrylic (not sure which it is) so I can actually see what's going on in there. In doing so, I noticed that the large OD (120 degree section) was not sucked up to the side of the bucket...not sure how I botched that so bad...so I installed some foam weatherstripping to seal that portion. Additionally, I trimmed a few sections of the center fitting rather than cut it off...not sure why, just seemed like the thing to do  All in all, these mods, along with not trying to suck up a huge pile of debris at one time, proved to be a significant improvement in performance. After seeing how the action is working in there gets my head spinning about all sorts of ways to mod and improve on it...or at least tweak it.

One idea, as Rob mentions, is to cut more of a spiral (or involute) shape that is more conducive to making a stronger vortex/cyclonic action. I am also considering tipping the bottom plate some as well. To help see it, I tied some strings to the all-thread and it's clear how the air moves w/o having to vacuum anything up.

I made a video of my testing and results...enjoy!


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## woodnthings

*Chris that's awesome!*

The Plexi is a great idea to be able to see what's happening, very clever. And the performance is terrific. The video is also a great idea. Great Post. :thumbsup::thumbsup: bill


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## rrbrown

woodnthings said:


> The Plexi is a great idea to be able to see what's happening, very clever. And the performance is terrific. The video is also a great idea. Great Post. :thumbsup::thumbsup: bill


I agree, I wanted to add plexi to mine when I make it but I was thinking a smaller window. Well not any more.

Hey Chris since your getting better results now I would try the first test again just to see. It should work even if you're sucking up a lot of debris. I have the DC with a large can, so I will use a floor sweep and a vacuum wand to clean the shop. I expect to have large piles of debris and would expect it to work even then.

I'm saying you should test it because you had the problem and I think you probably fixed it. More then likely the gasket helped out more then anything. I originally added a gasket to mine just to be sure of the fit, which was wood on metal. I knew I didn't want leaks and was being proactive.


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## woodnthings

*OK, then make the whole top out of Plexi*

It would be a version of the "clear vue cyclone" ha ha 
Lexan would would be my choice, but probably many $$. Then in boring moments waiting for paint and glue to dry just pour a cold one and and watch the dust swirl.  bill


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## rrbrown

woodnthings said:


> It would be a version of the "clear vue cyclone" ha ha
> Lexan would would be my choice, but probably many $$. Then in boring moments waiting for paint and glue to dry just pour a cold one and and watch the dust swirl.  bill


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: 

Yeah $$ for sure unless I know a Firemedic somewhere with a fairly large stash of Lexan.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

You know I wanted to add it just because I thought it would be cool to see how it worked. Now add in the cold one and you got a plan. 

Of course As my wife would say. "Only boys, because girls just don't think that way. They turn it on and expect it to work, who cares how? Boys that's who.":laughing:


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## firemedic

rrbrown said:


> Yeah $$ for sure unless I know a Firemedic somewhere with a fairly large stash of Lexan.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Damn it! lol soon as I saw this thread go towards lexan and acrylic I started praying you hadn't 'the stash'!!! I couldn't remember if you had or not 

I guess you know where to find it now!

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## dbhost

Now that is a LOT better...


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## ChiknNutz

Yup, the entire baffle out of Lexan (polycarbonate) would be killer. This was the only pc I could find around the shop. We used to have a sign business so used the clear on occasion, but mostly 3/16" thk white (which I have a [email protected] of that still, of course). At wholesale prices, the stuff wasn't TOO expensive, but not cheap either. I still dabble in signs a little so could get more Lexan...


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## dwendt1978

Great video!! Thanks for adding. :thumbsup:


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## RetiredLE

Why didn't I think of that? That's a great way to show the system in action. Nice work! 

Off I go to the glass shop.....


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## jeremyb

you inspired me to make one as well. Though, I wanted to make it very easy on myself --- no routing. Used the lid with 1/4" MDF. Cut all the holes and shapes with a jigsaw. Spent about $15 on it. 




















a little video to show the results:


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## RetiredLE

As I was viewing the YouTube video series (link shown above) on the homemade wooden dust separator, a thought came to mind. 

One way to save some work making this unit would be to substitute a squirrel cage blower housing as shown here. Just remove the guts. 

The weight would probably be close to the same. The only hard part would be to fashion an adapter to fit the unit onto your container.


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## dbhost

Honestly, I have gone to just using the original lid for whatever vessel I am using if it is available, and cutting holes in it for the ports. The only "hard" part then is cutting the baffle, which is really easy...


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## klr650

Well being the skeptic I am, I went ahead and built my own baffle. Pretty on the cheap set up - Homer bucket, Lowes grey plastic lids, one for the top and one for the baffle, 3 4 1/2" 1/4" bolts for spacers, 1 1/2" PVC to trap connector (for the threads), and a 2" PVC elbow.

Have to say I was surprised by how well it did, sucked up about 3 gallons of walnut dust and shavings, the shop vac had only a smidgen of fine dust in it when was all said and done - and some of that dust may have been leftovers from the hose. One thing I did note was that the vacuum was noticeably less - it did its job, but not with the usual vigor.

Question, probably been answered already but here goes - what is the best way to connect PVC with a shop vac 2 1/2" hose? I find that generally the connections are very loose. Is there a better combination than just plain old 2" PVC coupling to 2 1/2" ShopVac hose?


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## klr650

RetiredLE said:


> As I was viewing the YouTube video series (link shown above) on the homemade wooden dust separator, a thought came to mind.
> 
> One way to save some work making this unit would be to substitute a squirrel cage blower housing as shown here. Just remove the guts.
> 
> The weight would probably be close to the same. The only hard part would be to fashion an adapter to fit the unit onto your container.


It's funny you should mention this - I have one of those I salvaged from my old fireplace blower unit. The original owner put one in, presumably to force hot air out into the living room - I generally found it to be a haven for spiders and an electrical nightmare. So I bought a new switch, new power cord, and was going to give it a 'whirl' so to speak - just haven't had time to do so.


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## dmh

klr650 said:


> Question, probably been answered already but here goes - what is the best way to connect PVC with a shop vac 2 1/2" hose? I find that generally the connections are very loose. Is there a better combination than just plain old 2" PVC coupling to 2 1/2" ShopVac hose?


klr650, pull the fitting off of the end of your shop vac hose and the hose itself will fit snuggly inside a 2" PVC coupling or elbow.:smile:


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## klr650

Okay, I can do that.

I was going to ask a second question about Rigid's 1 7/8" hose, but poking around I found this http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/cheap-simple-ridgid-shop-vac-hose-adapter-21242/ 
as a possible solution - using muffler couplings. 
Rigid should really get the boot for using such a whacked size on their hoses.:furious:


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## ChiknNutz

So based on at least one suggestion to re-run the test with the modifications, here is the video. Sucking up a huge pile of debris still resulted in clogging, scrubbing and what most would likely consider failure of the unit. A few things could be done to reduce the problem, but I still wonder if this simply is asking too much of it based on the size.



http://s958.photobucket.com/albums/...on=view&current=Thien_Baffle_2_mpeg1video.mp4


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## RetiredLE

Bad link.


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## ChiknNutz

RetiredLE said:


> Bad link.


Really? It's working when I try it. I'll take a look. Do you see the picture here of the baffle/bucket and shopvac?


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## woodnthings

*pushing the limits*

It just may be that the diameter of the lid does not allow sufficient time for the vortex to function correctly in the height allowed. That's why the taller "cyclone" versions have evolved. I donno. :blink:
The clear lid helps to see what's happening for sure. 
We seem to have 2 types of separtors, Thien and Vortexcone. 
Has anyone tried a cone in a 5 gal bucket? :huh: bill


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## RetiredLE

ChiknNutz said:


> Really? It's working when I try it. I'll take a look. Do you see the picture here of the baffle/bucket and shopvac?


I did see the picture yes. I just now tried it again and it worked this time.


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## RetiredLE

ChiknNutz said:


> I still wonder if this simply is asking too much of it based on the size.


I wonder if your vac is maybe too powerful and is imparting too much suction on the material for the separator to handle. Or another possibility is that the side gap is too small to allow the material to drop down into the bucket. 

Mine works great and the only material that makes it into either the shop vac or the Grizzly dust collector is the fine dust/talc that is in suspension in the airstream.


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## Chaincarver Steve

Nutz, the clear top panel is nice!



klr650 said:


> One thing I did note was that the vacuum was noticeably less - it did its job, but not with the usual vigor.


Are you sure you didn't/don't have an air leak? It seems to me that, as long as your system is sealed properly, it shouldn't have much effect on the suction power. I haven't made one (yet) so my assumptions may be off base.


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## Timl

rrbrown said:


> I agree, I wanted to add plexi to mine when I make it but I was thinking a smaller window. Well not any more.
> 
> Hey Chris since your getting better results now I would try the first test again just to see. It should work even if you're sucking up a lot of debris. I have the DC with a large can, so I will use a floor sweep and a vacuum wand to clean the shop. I expect to have large piles of debris and would expect it to work even then.
> 
> I'm saying you should test it because you had the problem and I think you probably fixed it. More then likely the gasket helped out more then anything. I originally added a gasket to mine just to be sure of the fit, which was wood on metal. I knew I didn't want leaks and was being proactive.


I am new to this sort of thing, would clear casting resin be practice, it should be see through and it is pretty tough..


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## Timl

I have started using clear casting resin to fill gaps in poorly dried wood that I want to turn, I was wondering if the resin could be a replacement for the plexi?


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## Timl

Note to self, always double check that your post has or has not _posted_ before reposting....?....


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## regesullivan

Looks great and I love the idea of the see through top. You might try cutting away some of that elbow so the swirling debris can get between the it and the bucket. This will reduce turbulance in the fastest swirling air. As others have mentioned the middle outlet should probably extend another inch or so closer to the bottom. Btw, drilling holes as you said you might try will reduce the speed of the swirled air considerably exactly the opposite of what it more efficient.


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## Teardropper

Here's my Thein that works great:




























The challenge was making the inlet pipe. I used a foam plug to form the mold for fiberglass/epoxy. The foam was later dissolved chemically. 

T


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## BigJim

Teardropper said:


> Here's my Thein that works great:
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> The challenge was making the inlet pipe. I used a foam plug to form the mold for fiberglass/epoxy. The foam was later dissolved chemically.
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> T


I know this is a 7 year old thread but your's looks great.

By the way, did you build a teardrop camper?


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## Teardropper

BigJim said:


> I know this is a 7 year old thread but your's looks great.
> 
> By the way, did you build a teardrop camper?


I've built three and planning on a fourth. 






T


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