# Alternating Tread Stairs with storage (Planning)



## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

My wife and I are building our own house and we are the process of drywalling now and after that's done it's time for me to start building the cabinets. Well.... I'm also planning to build an alternating tread staircase that has drawers and shelving as well a small closet space for storing the vacuum and broom etc.

Pics attached of similar concepts. The idea is to build drawers into the steps along the wall, cubbies along the front side and a door on the tall side to access the closet underneath.

It's a big project, but I'm going for it. My thoughts are to build it like a big cabinet, but I'm stumped on how to support it all. Just looking for ideas on how to make this thing.

And before anyone says it isn't code compliant... I live in an area with no codes or inspections. Oh and I'll also add a handrail to the wall.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

What was reasoning of making two sets of stairs? Why not one?


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Toolman50 said:


> What was reasoning of making two sets of stairs? Why not one?


Tiny house (450sqft) with limited space. This type of staircase allows for the same amount of treads in half the space.


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## Ron_J (Sep 22, 2014)

The first time I had seen a set up like this was at a co workers place about 30 years ago. In my opinion, they take a little getting used to, and I'm not sure I'd want them in my house. Actually, I'm am sure I wouldn't...I considered them a few years back to save some space, and decided against them. 

They are a cool conversation piece though.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Animag,

I love your idea!

Here is a link to some of my favorite Alternate Stair systems. 

I lean toward independent free-standing units that are also intended to be storage area as well. 

This type of modularity also makes construction more shop based than in situ projects and tends to be more serviceable/changeable without interfering with the infrastructure of the overall architecture...

There also actually a blast to go up and down and not that difficult to get use to...

It is like most "new things" in life...you got'a try it first before actually really understanding it...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I wouldn't want them personally ....*

I can understand the reasoning for the compressed run in a tiny house, and the rise is also over the normal height, so not comfortable, especially for an older person. A handrail is a must in my opinion. Children can easily fall off unless a side panel is attached. The handrail could be integrated into the side panel. The storage makes sense to utilize the otherwise wasted space. The build seems pretty straight forward, just make the boxes from 3/4" plywood or solid wood on the tops. I don't see a normal person walking upright as they would on a normal stairway. I see more of a crawl up method and going down would be very tricky..... JMO.

In my own home, I made a library ladder with Red Oak and wide steps to reach addition book storage in the loft/balcony. The ladder is steep to climb, BUT the hand rails on either side make it safe. My ladder is moveable so you can decrease the climb angle by pulling it out at the bottom. A ladder would be my preference and you can still have the storage underneath in boxes if that's a design element you want.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Animag771 said:


> Tiny house (450sqft) with limited space. This type of staircase allows for the same amount of treads in half the space.


It is also very difficult to climb. And, if anyone ever has a leg, foot or back problem it may be impossible to climb.

You may intend to live in the house forever, but someday somebody is going to have to sell it. The stairs will then detract from the value.

And last, coming down they can be dangerous.( just my opinion, but I think valid)

George


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> It is also very difficult to climb....
> 
> if anyone ever has a leg, foot or back problem it may be impossible to climb.....
> 
> ...


Really...!!??

You've climbed these?

You've tried to sell one?

You've fallen because of there danger?

Opinion or not...What gives with this starting with negatives?

Isn't it rather disingenuous to always start with negative..."I think"...comments?

Perhaps, wouldn't it be best, to stay silent if you don't like something that you feel isn't something useful for you...

The* OP didn't ask if we liked these stairs or if they would work for us*...They asked for positive feedback and ideas about them...

If someone here has actually built and used these types of stairs for a period of time, and have first-hand experience with issues...even if negative...please do let's share those observations...

Personally, I find this constant ...negative feedback...right from the start...on someone asking for help with an idea without actually having knowledge or experience around that idea or concept...or ever actually at least trying something to some degree as to develop actual tangible feedback...positive or negative...rather disheartening...

( just my opinion, but I think valid)


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Lots of replies. Thanks everyone.

Everyone has valid points, which I have thought A LOT about before my original post. Lets see if I can address the concerns. We will not be having children so that isn't a huge issue. The wife refuses to have a ladder and a standard staircase will not fit without having ridiculously high rise. We will have hand rails. In the case of an injury it isn't a problem (I've had surgery on both feet so thought that through), because the stairs only lead to a loft bed, but we have a couch and a queen size guest bed downstairs. I have used a staircase like this before and they really aren't bad at all. Oh and as far as resale of the house (not trying to be a jerk), I don't care. We've built this as our forever home and we're building it for us, not someone else. Market value means practically nothing to us. Actually I'd be happy if it devalues the home some... Less to pay on taxes 🙂

I really do appreciate the concern and caution, but I have thought it through and I do want to go this route. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to build it so it doesn't fall apart while someone is going up or down.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I can't imagine having a staircase like that, but then I couldn't imagine drinking Scotch that tasted like dirt until I tried it. 😊


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Really...!!??
> 
> You've climbed these?
> 
> ...


In the same vein did you realize when you pound out multiple questions(like in red) that it comes across as antagonistic?

I hate to tell you, this is the internet, people voice their opinion even if you didn't ask them to, you can use the same filter you suggest they use(stay silent), just ignore it and don't respond...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I pretty much agree*

You can't ask for only "positive" comments on a forum, especially one where safety concerns are a large part of the replies, and by older folks with more life experiences who may be more cautious. At least that's my position having survived car crashes, motorcycle crashes, falls off ladders, sliding down roofs, chainsaw mishaps requiring stitches, blows to the head in various manners, accidental firearm discharges, and more. Murphy's Law and Gravity are two principles that should guide your life. Plan for things that can go wrong and be ready for gravity to follow close behind. 

It's the internet, we all have opinions and this forum provides a channel for them. There are ways to disagree and be informative or instructional at the same time, at least that's what I attempt to do here. :vs_cool:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> You can't ask for only "positive" comments on a forum...


Respectfully...actually...Yes...I can...

I do in my private life and will here also...

If someone wants to share a negative and/or unproductive or inaccurate opinion, factoid, or remark...Then they can expect a consistent response from me about such behavior as long as I'm a member...



shoot summ said:


> I hate to tell you, this is the internet, people voice their opinion even if you didn't ask them to, you can use the same filter you suggest they use(stay silent), just ignore it and don't respond...


Your underlying premiss on this point is true...I would be a fool to disagree with it...It is the internet, and it is an opinionated free-for-all...Without a doubt!

The doesn't mean I will ever stop trying to be a better person or confronting negativity in my life anywhere I see it. Maybe a throwback to Law enforcement days, and my underlying personality, but I confront negative and unproductive behavior...

Sitting back and using the excuse of basically..." that's the way it is"...I call BS on.

"Planned ignoring" walks a very thin line between laziness, and "joining the status quo," when things are just left for others to do or hoping it just stops on its own. Seldom does either of those change anything...especially in the realm of "normative cultures." Planned ignoring can be effective sometimes...but usually, it justs promotes more of the same behavior from those individuals doing it or condoning it...

From my perspective (even this conversation should have been done offline, but others brought it here) when a poster starts a conversation (as it is in the real world in face to face conversations)...That conversation belongs to them, and my part of it is to answer their questions and provide the guidance they asked for...trying!!...to be as positive and supportive of there goal sets as possible without detracting the topic with all kinds of "I think" comments...

Simple rules of response:

1. Is there something overtly incorrect or dangerous about the topic?

In this case not at all...

These stairs and those like them have been around for millennia and in reality are no more dangerous than any other type of stair. In some cases, like folks with hip issues, they actually are easier to ascend and descend, but you would have actually had to of researched, designed and built some stairs like these to perhaps knowing that? Which leads to:

2. If you don't have any tangible experience, knowledge or insight into something...don't share, and/or ask a question before offering something up for consideration.

Those two criteria alone are the standards I try to keep for original OPs before I write anything...

We can agree to disagree if not your way...

If you wish to discuss this further, please let's do it offline...


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Well this is definitely starting to derail quickly.

So in an attempt to get back on topic... How do you suppose these staircases get their support? If we can find the answer to that, these things will practically build themselves from there.

(Random) I love the box joints on the second staircase. I think I'm going to have to incorporate that.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A great response!*



Animag771 said:


> Lots of replies. Thanks everyone.
> 
> *Everyone has valid points,* which I have thought A LOT about before my original post. Lets see if I can address the concerns. We will not be having children so that isn't a huge issue. The wife refuses to have a ladder and a standard staircase will not fit without having ridiculously high rise. We will have hand rails. In the case of an injury it isn't a problem (I've had surgery on both feet so thought that through), because the stairs only lead to a loft bed, but we have a couch and a queen size guest bed downstairs. I have used a staircase like this before and they really aren't bad at all. Oh and as far as resale of the house (not trying to be a jerk), I don't care. We've built this as our forever home and we're building it for us, not someone else. Market value means practically nothing to us. Actually I'd be happy if it devalues the home some... Less to pay on taxes 🙂
> *
> I really do appreciate the concern and caution, but I have thought it through and I do want to go this route. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to build it so it doesn't fall apart while someone is going up or down.*



Exactly! No more discussion is needed after that unless it's related to the construction or design. JMO.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> Well this is definitely starting to derail quickly...So in an attempt to get back on topic... How do you suppose these staircases get their support? If we can find the answer to that, these things will practically build themselves from there...(Random) I love the box joints on the second staircase. I think I'm going to have to incorporate that.


The all wood joinery styles are my favorite as well...

As to support:

Some of these are in the Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥 style of construction...Which by there nature are self-supporting.


















The other version is usually up against a wall (but not always) or is constructed either as a single unit or double (with alternating steps obviously) then supported in the same fashion as other more common variety of stairs...

Does that help?

j


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

I have built a captain's staircase before. (Jefferson staircase, et al) The rise is actually NOT higher than normal. It's about 7 3/8" per tread. Most people go up 2 treads every time they put their foot forward. You're doing the same thing here. Your left foot skips the tread that your right foot is on and goes to the next one. About 15". The primary difference is that the strides of your left and right feet cannot be too close to centered. You have to keep your foot stride a little spread apart, and that's a little odd to get used to, that's all. 

A handrail is essential. And if you want the storage beneath, I'd suggest you build it as cabinets, such as in one of your photos. Build them solid and strong, and they will support the weight and use. I would attach them to the wall, though. They don't have much width and they might be prone to tippiness. I would also suggest you consider solid wood for the tread surfaces rather than plywood, and perhaps a bit thicker than 3/4". For longevity's sake.


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> The all wood joinery styles are my favorite as well...
> 
> As to support:
> 
> ...


I understand the self supporting styles, which I may end up having to go with, if I can't figure out the other designs.

Probably something like this:

















As far as the last portion of your comment. It didn't make sense to me. Mine will be against a wall, but I'd like to avoid using stringers in my design because it will limit the available spaces beneath and I honestly also hate the look of stingers. I prefer a cleaner more modern style (like those beautiful box joints!).


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> I understand the self-supporting styles, which I may end up having to go with, if I can't figure out the other designs...


I like your design...That is in the more Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥 style and should be quite solid when done...



Animag771 said:


> As far as the last portion of your comment. It didn't make sense to me. Mine will be against a wall, but I'd like to avoid using stringers in my design because it will limit the available spaces beneath and I honestly also hate the look of stingers. I prefer a cleaner more modern style (like those beautiful box joints!).


Sorry...I thought I might have missed the boat on that one...LOL

Not all stair designs employ a "stringer" armature for support. Many use the wall and a cantilever anchoring system (look up cantilever stairs)...

Others, by there nature of joinery form a "stringer effect" all on there own and the base and upper attachment are all that is required to support normal domestic use. These are more challenging in design configuration, and the joinery design and execution must be precise.

In the case of "alternate step" (if not in the Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥 style) I design these as to offset independent narrow stair with a rise of some greater amount (ie. 450mm, 300mm, 250mm with the last working well for the elderly). Then when these are placed next to each other and joined together, they form a very ridge assembly of interaction joint that works in concert to support the intended span they must cross until anchored to the area they provide access to.

Was that better?

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Animag771 said:


> Well this is definitely starting to derail quickly.
> 
> So in an attempt to get back on topic... How do you suppose these staircases get their support? If we can find the answer to that, these things will practically build themselves from there.
> 
> (Random) I love the box joints on the second staircase. I think I'm going to have to incorporate that.


The first one has a "main" center stringer that can be seen through the inner steps. The second, I'm not sure as I cant see a strong structural support or triangular strength in design unless the first few steps extent to floor creating enough support for the short distance of none support. Both are pretty. I like the extra safety of the first rails for open edge. Sometimes it's hard to decide what we see on net as to whether it's strong or long lasting....BAD part of a picture is there's a lot to also guess at which usually just gets assumed as good, strong, long lasting because it got posted.

Good luck with your adventure AND PLEASE keep us posted with decisions and build pics. NEAT idea.


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Not all stair designs employ a "stringer" armature for support. Many use the wall and a cantilever anchoring system (look up cantilever stairs)...
> 
> Others, by there nature of joinery form a "stringer effect" all on there own and the base and upper attachment are all that is required to support normal domestic use. These are more challenging in design configuration, and the joinery design and execution must be precise.
> 
> ...


Yes, much better.

You mentioned floating stairs, which is a design I had considered. Check out this image...








It wouldn't take a whole lot of tweaking to get what I want out of it. I could simply build a box on top of the outside half of each step, with the step as the base of the box. Then I could turn the inner steps into drawers and attach a plywood panel to the outer edge create a closet space under the stairs. The big difference is that the person that built that staircase bolted it to the concrete wall of his basement for support. I'm not sure if lag screws to my studs would provide the same level of strength.

The more and more I look at it though, the more I'm leaning to a freestanding stacked cabinet (Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥) design, like the one shown above.



Tennessee Tim said:


> The first one has a "main" center stringer that can be seen through the inner steps. The second, I'm not sure as I cant see a strong structural support or triangular strength in design unless the first few steps extent to floor creating enough support for the short distance of none support. Both are pretty. I like the extra safety of the first rails for open edge. Sometimes it's hard to decide what we see on net as to whether it's strong or long lasting....BAD part of a picture is there's a lot to also guess at which usually just gets assumed as good, strong, long lasting because it got posted.
> 
> Good luck with your adventure AND PLEASE keep us posted with decisions and build pics. NEAT idea.


I see the main stringer now that you've mentioned it... It hides well. That second one is a bit of a puzzle though. I'm guessing it's attached to the floor at the first few steps as well as at the top and then it relies on strong joinery (as Jay C. mentioned) to support the mid section. If I imagine someone standing on it, it seems that no single step would take much load at any given time. The load is transferred to the next a previous step. So if you have a foot on one step, it's actually being supported by at least three steps. Or at least that's the way it works out in my head. (But in my defense, I haven't had my coffee yet)

BTW you are completely correct in the point about trusting what we see on the internet. I know plenty of people who could build something that looks stunning, but at the same time would break into pieces without much force. Pictures on the internet are great for getting ideas and inspiration, but at the the end of the day we are the ones responsible for insuring that we've done our homework and used what common sense (not so common) we have to build something that will be safe and long lasting.

I will definitely keep everyone updated on the progress.


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## pro70z28 (Feb 26, 2018)

If you plan to build storage under the stairs, support isn't an issue. If you want to keep it open, one possible solution would be a steel square or even rectangular tubing runner up the middle with tubes welded out from there to support the steps. The wood, could conceal most if not all of the steel support structure and would be stronger & less bulky than a wood runner.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I am looking at the various photos and I notice that the low step is placed on the right on some and the left on others, imagining stepping on to one of these the low step on the left would be awkward for me as I tend to lead with my right foot, is this something to consider when designing them?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

FrankC said:


> I am looking at the various photos and I notice that the low step is placed on the right on some and the left on others, imagining stepping on to one of these the low step on the left would be awkward for me as I tend to lead with my right foot, is this something to consider when designing them?



Frank, you just nailed an actual valid possible criticism of this style of a stair. Perhaps not critical, but real for sure. Depending on step dominance pattern, the first step can be awkward, but most adapt quickly to it...but as you said..." something to consider"...and be aware of!

Even with this point, for those that still are ambulatory to even a moderate degree, this style stair with an 8" full rise (4" half rise) style of stair gives a lot of security because they are typically better fitted with railings than most stairs, are narrow in profile and the hip rise to use is much lower. This, in turn, makes them comfortable to ascend/descend, and more something to get used to then hard to use...


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Thanks for bringing that up. It is something I've considered as well. To me it makes the most sense to have the lowest step be on your leading foot for a more natural feel. 

In my situation (remember, tiny house) I'll actually have to make a 90° right turn during the first 2-3 steps. I'll have to figure out how to do that for alternating tread. I may have to do 2 full width treads at 45° to make the turn, before transitioning to the alternating treads.

Also... Would an 8" rise be too steep for this kind of staircase? In my mind I'm thinking it will be ok since your back foot doesn't have to arc over the step that your front foot is on. Making tripping less of an issue, but it still could be a little steep for the joints. I may only be 26, but if I grow old in this house I would like to plan for it now.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Animag771;1951026
Also... Would an 8" rise be too steep for this kind of staircase? In my mind I'm thinking it will be ok since your back foot doesn't have to arc over the step that your front foot is on. Making tripping less of an issue said:


> It's not going up that causes issues, it's coming down. The farther down that you have to step beyond normal riser heights, the more off-balance you can become, with your weight moving downwards. That's more than a matter of "just getting used to it". It's a gravity thing. That was the eye opener for me the first time I went down the one I built.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I was intrigued by the idea and showed the images to my spouse. We both agreed that we prefer the more traditional steps for several reasons:

* The alternating tread stairs forces you into a specific pattern of use. We tried different patterns on our own limited steps, and found that we vary how we use them. We might not like something as inflexible as that.
* Sometimes, I prefer to take one step at a time with both feet, or favor a specific foot. Sore joints.
* It becomes difficult to pull something with wheels up the steps, like a heavy upright vacuum cleaner. (Of course, a modern house like that would have central vacuuming, right?) 
* If you are carrying a heavy load (think: laundry basket), it may be harder to find a suitable place to rest it to catch your breath. 

Bottom line: 
These stairs are designed and intended for use by younger people. They may impose restrictions or difficulties on seniors. They may also impose limitations on people with moderate handicaps that they would not encounter with ordinary stairs. 

We like the creativity of the design and the cool factor of how the alternating tread stairs look and work, but there is a usability tradeoff, in our opinion.


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Tool Agnostic said:


> I was intrigued by the idea and showed the images to my spouse. We both agreed that we prefer the more traditional steps for several reasons:
> 
> * The alternating tread stairs forces you into a specific pattern of use. We tried different patterns on our own limited steps, and found that we vary how we use them. We might not like something as inflexible as that.
> * Sometimes, I prefer to take one step at a time with both feet, or favor a specific foot. Sore joints.
> ...


That is a pretty fair assessment. I hadn't given much thought to rolling things upstairs, but I did think about carrying heavy loads. We have located our laundry baskets in the bathroom downstairs (where our washer is) and as for the central vacuum... That would be a negative. My in-laws have one and they hate it and it never gets used, plus with such a small house I didn't see the need, since a regular vacuum can reach the entire house without having to switch outlets. Our solution was to buy a Shark stick vacuum which weighs less than 10lbs and is very compact, so it's very easy to carry. As I mentioned earlier the stairs only go to a loft bedroom, which will be almost exclusively used for sleeping. Even the closet is downstairs.

I agree that a traditional staircase would be more ideal, but the fact is it simply will not fit. So given the choice between this and a ladder, I much prefer the alternating tread. Try carrying a vacuum or laundry up a ladder and I imagine a ladder doesn't get any better with age either.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

since we seem to have a Forum full of pro and con people on a subject with which they have zero experience, here's my real life first person up close and personal experience:

because of (long story omitted) we had to install three sets of Lapeyre alternating step stairs to work stations on a mezzanine. the stations were manned 24x6 so on any given day there was a minimum of 36 people-trips up and down the stairs. most were young/younger people - who were nervous and uncomfortable using them. some - after a trip or three up/down - declined to go there. requiring an employee to do something they felt is dangerous is just not recommended.

all, including me, were uncomfortable coming down the stairs; going up wasn't so bad. to near exclusion they would 'back down' the stair holding on to handrails on either side. the stairs are much steeper than regular steps; the sensation was very much like using a standard ladder. if you try coming down a standard ladder facing outward, you'll notice the sensation.

eventually we had to modify the mezzanine and install "normal" steps.

all that being said, it's a tiny house and you really don't have a lot of choices.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

I think part of the challenge many have with seeing or thinking about these "alternate step systems" is they get mislabeled from the start, and/or thought of as..." stairs."

These are not stairs...per se

There, not ladders either...

They are a hybrid between the two, and with some the more concise observation made now by posters (thank you), there can be some positive feedback and discussion around those views that may be of service to Animag771, and what they are trying achieve with their design...

*Some Key Points:*



Tool Agnostic said:


> * The alternating tread stairs forces you into a specific pattern of use...





mmwood_1 said:


> It's not going up that causes issues, it's coming down...


I personally feel more comfortable going down a ladder facing out but have the balance and nimbleness of the foot to do so without holding on...

So there is a spectrum here of approach to any ascending/descending design system that does fit different abilities...or...how you approach the device, to begin with...

The patterns can be altered once accustomed to the system, but this does take time, and only works on the designs with wider treads and/or less rise...Many of them are very restricted for a reason and more ladder than anything else...



Tool Agnostic said:


> * Sometimes, I prefer to take one step at a time with both feet, or favor a specific foot. Sore joints.


And...that can be done on these if of the wider tread design, but again most (not all) are designed to be...only used with hand on the rail. These, of course, are the more "ladder-like" design.



Tool Agnostic said:


> * It becomes difficult to pull something with wheels up the steps, like a heavy upright vacuum cleaner...


Again, I would suggest that has to do with the specific design...Not the overall concept or application format these are intened for (aka high angle and confined space.)



Tool Agnostic said:


> * If you are carrying a heavy load (think: laundry basket), it may be harder to find a suitable place to rest it to catch your breath...


Agreed...

On some of them...but not all of them at all. It is actually much easier on the better-designed units to carry things on them, this is why you see there the early historic evolution in the South American and Indonesian architecture to access "stilt timber frame structures." When ascending, because of the acute angle, the item being carried can always be placed directly on the ascending step only inch/mm away...

Descending (for most) is only done backward, which is the way ladders are typically employed while descending, though most that have and like these systems have the balance and ability to walk on them facing out, even if carrying something. That is a factor of different human ergonomics and perhaps culture as well. Some are climbers...some aren't.



Tool Agnostic said:


> These stairs are designed and intended for use by younger people. They may impose restrictions or difficulties on seniors. They may also impose limitations on people with moderate handicaps that they would not encounter with ordinary stairs...


This observation is not true at all...and/or only fits a narrow scope of people...

I'm closer to 60 than anything and I enjoy and like these types of stairs. I know folks with hip issues to prefer them over other types because of the security they feel using them...

I also know, that when designed well, they have a much lower rise to tread ratio than most stairs or ladders, and can more than accommodate two feet on a tread (wider units)...so for a senior or those with hip issues are much easier to use because of those reasons and the fact they are meant (typically) to be used slowly and with a railing...

Thus much of this is on a perspective scale and only applicable to certain designs. I don't really believe they can be directly compared fairly (in most of them) to standard stairs, and they are just as much a ladder also in some configurations...


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

I guess at this point we should start talking more about the details of the design. I think I've settled on using a design very similar to this, with some minor changes in the storage layout. It seems to offer the most usable storage space and allpwse to have a small closet area for taller items like the vacuum, broom, etc.










My thoughts are to use 12 steps. Each step would have a rise of 8", a depth of 12" and a width of 14". This would fit my available space perfectly. If I can figure out how to make a right handed turn at the first 2 steps, I may be able to fit another step or 2 and lower the rise slightly.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> I guess at this point we should start talking more about the details of the design. I think I've settled on using a design very similar to this, with some minor changes in the storage layout. It seems to offer the most usable storage space and allpwse to have a small closet area for taller items like the vacuum, broom, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All in all, it looks good...

If 14" is the total width of entire two units combined (meaning 7" wide treads)...now you're getting into what many here have been (rightfully) concerned with. That is a very small landing zone!

TomCT2 account of the Lapeyre alternating step stairs might lend some insight into how small landing pads affect use, comfort, and safety...

Lapeyre alternating step stairs are too often sold and installed as stairs, in the viewpoint of many designers, which they are not! As a design/builder, I will not call them stairs at all! Those units are ladders at their best in my view of them and should only be employed as such, and the HR department of any structure that has them should have clear guidelines (for liability) of how they are accessed and by whom. Saftey boards are re-examining many alternating step units that are of similar configuration...

I would make each tread 12"x12" for a total width of 24". These can be used then as a narrow stair, or as the intended alternating system. If you think you will want to be in this space later in life, I would also reconfigure with a much lower rise (4" and no more than 6" max) if I was designing these for a Tiny House design that could see multi-generational use...

Hope that was of some help?

j


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> If 14" is the total width of entire two units combined (meaning 7" wide treads)...now you're getting into what many here have been (rightfully) concerned with. That is a very small landing zone!


No no, I mean EACH step would be 12"x14". Making the total width of the staircase 28"



Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I would make each tread 12"x12" for a total width of 24". These can be used then as a narrow stair, or as the intended alternating system. If you think you will want to be in this space later in life, I would also reconfigure with a much lower rise (4" and no more than 6" max) if I was designing these for a Tiny House design that could see multi-generational use...
> 
> Hope that was of some help?
> 
> j


I may have to start calling the upstairs area the guest room, once I get older... If I made it with a 6" rise per step, the staircase would need a total of 16 steps and I'm not sure I have enough room for that while still keeping a decent tread depth. If I did 6" rise I'd only be able to have a 9" tread depth.

I'm working on a 3D rendering (I'm not very good at it though) of the staircase to tweak things around. I'll post pics when it's closer to being finished so everyone can see what I've got going on.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> No no, I mean EACH step would be 12"x14". Making the total width of the staircase 28"


Excellent...!!! 

That's even better...plenty of width!



Animag771 said:


> If I made it with a 6" rise per step, the staircase would need a total of 16 steps and I'm not sure I have enough room for that while still keeping a decent tread depth. If I did 6" rise I'd only be able to have a 9" tread depth...I'm working on a 3D rendering (I'm not very good at it though) of the staircase to tweak things around. I'll post pics when it's closer to being finished so everyone can see what I've got going on.


Small spaces often become "architectural dictators" and there isn't much to do about it...The geometry is what it is...

9" is small depth for sure...Here is where there is a consideration to be made about...is it more ladder or more stair? 

Often I op for a lower rise, and perhaps a "toe tripper" inset to get extra depth, but that still leaves a smaller 9" space for descending unless you use a railing and go down backward like on a ladder or are a nibble footed beast and go down forward on your toes...Some of us are comfortable with such things...some are not...LOL.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

"That's even better...plenty of width!"

You have to be kidding do not you. Yes? Surely?

For small children and midgets.

George


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> "That's even better...plenty of width!"
> 
> You have to be kidding do not you. Yes? Surely?
> 
> ...


No George...No one is kidding...

This is a discussion about designing a hybrid system and until that is understood...then I would suggest the post topic won't be understood. These are specialty "confined space" ladder/stair units.

Perhaps they should be thought of more as a ladder than stairs...??...That may help to understand them better?

Some are great...some (as TomCT2 et al) pointed out can be pretty poorly designed and should be treated like ladders and not stairs at all...Some are just plain bad!! but not all of them...


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

In in effort to save space... Which of these is the better (safer) design? I imagine the left staircase would be better, because it constantly moves in a forward direction, while the other you step forward then have to kind of stop to step up and repeat. The one on the right, does save a bit more space though so I thought it might be worth looking into.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> In in effort to save space... Which of these is the better (safer) design? I imagine the left staircase would be better, because it constantly moves in a forward direction, while the other you step forward then have to kind of stop to step up and repeat. The one on the right, does save a bit more space though so I thought it might be worth looking into.


Yes...the one on the left...but...

Both work, and for those uncomfortable with these both intimidate about the same...To them, I say...not stair...ladder, and treat it like one.

So...Which for you?

If this space will never be sold, make it the way you wish, otherwise (of this kind of stair/ladder) the one on the left will be easier to ascend and descend...By what factor of ease ergonomically...I think that has so many variables to human shape, weight, height, age, etc that it would be difficult to quantify...I've designed both, I built the ones on the left because they are in the Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥 style of construction...


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## Animag771 (Apr 16, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Yes...the one on the left...but...
> 
> Both work, and for those uncomfortable with these both intimidate about the same...To them, I say...not stair...ladder, and treat it like one.
> 
> ...


Thanks. To me these are stairs, but I can see how others may see (or use) them as ladders. Thinking on it more, space savings isn't worth the trade-off of safety. It only saves 6" in the length of the entire staircase. I guess I kind of jumped the gun on that question, before thinking it through first.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

You mention making a 90 degree turn to incorporate more steps and a lower rise per step. 
Have you considered making this 90 degree turn near the top of the stairs? 
It could be designed to have a high landing before turning to the last 3-4 steps.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Animag771 said:


> Thanks... Thinking on it more, space savings isn't worth the trade-off of safety. It only saves 6" in the length of the entire staircase. I guess I kind of jumped the gun on that question, before thinking it through first.


Great!

As also a teacher and facilitator, sometimes the hardest thing is to stay supportive of a student or colleague's idea if you know there very well may be a better way to do something...

Nevertheless, the art of being a good teacher or facilitator is helping folks arrive at there own logical conclusion, and often if teaching/facilitating is done well the student's own insight will reveal itself...

I like your original idea still...but until you brought up what you just wrote in the last post, I wouldn't wish to dissuade you from the path you selected originally. Now I feel comfortable to share that if this was my space, I would just build regular Kaidan-Dansu-階段箪笥 for storage, and lose a little floor space for the effort but have more universally acceptable access to the space above. 

I personally think that is a better choice...If you do make it, but either can work!


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