# Refinishing 130 year old stairs.



## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi all,

New to the forum and am hoping I can both learn and contribute a lot.

We just pulled carpeting off of the stairs in our home and found what appear to be fairly decent oak treads. My plans are to sand them and apply a clear finish to them.

My questions are :

1: There are a ton of staple holes in some areas. Is there a way I can fill these and have the repair not be obvious? The wood is darker than normal, I'm assuming from age.

2: I'm considering using Minwax brushing lacquer for this mainly because I need the stairs to be in use as soon as possible. I'm pretty good with a brush and can be fairly fast. I'm also decent with a spray can but I have a feeling it's not worth trying to mask everything off to spray. 

3: Does anyone know why the older finish turned a hazy dark red color?

Open to ALL opinions and thoughts. 

I have attached two pictures, one of which has a tread I sanded and applied one coat of brushing lacquer to just to see what it would look like. I was planning on painting these and all I can say is I was amazed with the results and painting is now out of the question.


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## verdesardog (Apr 2, 2011)

Why try to mask the obvious, just fill the staple holes with whatever you can find that is close to the same color, giving the stairs some character. Then finish with water based poly floor finish, it dries in hours and is pretty hard and durable.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

verdesardog said:


> Why try to mask the obvious, just fill the staple holes with whatever you can find that is close to the same color, giving the stairs some character. Then finish with water based poly floor finish, it dries in hours and is pretty hard and durable.


I've heard if I use poly I won't be able to use the stairs for several days and must sand between coats.

Is this true?


I've never done anything like this before so I'm going 100% on what I've read over the past few days.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I would use a grain filler over the whole tread.It should be thick enough to fill any staple holes and will make your topcoat build and finish smoother.I understand the need for quickness but this should not be a rush job.One coat of something fast drying will not hold up long on stairs.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

mako1 said:


> I would use a grain filler over the whole tread.It should be thick enough to fill any staple holes and will make your topcoat build and finish smoother.I understand the need for quickness but this should not be a rush job.One coat of something fast drying will not hold up long on stairs.


As I said I'm new to this.
I've never heard of grain filler before?

My original plans were to do 4 or 5 coats of brushing lacquer, not just one. It seemed I could do all of the coats in one day and then have the stairs back in service by the end of a weekend.
*
I agree 100% this should not be a rush job and will try to make things work if poly is the way to go.
*

I don't mind wearing a respirator while doing the work or a difficult cleanup as long as it provides me with the best results.


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm no finishing expert, but a couple of months ago I tried water based poly for the first time. I'm never going back to oil based poly!

With the water based, it doesn't take days to dry- hours, and no odor. I was able to put three coats on a table top in one day. It goes on smoothly, and I only had to do light sanding between coats. I don't think the drying time between coats is all that much longer than with brush on lacquer, although I've never tried them side by side.

Water based isn't supposed to add much of a "warm" tone to wood as does oil based. I used Varathane 266245, which on HD's web site they call "Amber Satin"; just says satin on the can, but does have a slight yellowish tint. It's not recommended for floors, though.

You might want to try finishing some scrap wood to see if the color is okay. If you want a warmer color, you can slap a coat of shellac on the treads before the poly. I've never used water based poly over exposed nails, and I don't know whether they'd show rust stains, but the shellac coat would also eliminate that risk.

One other suggestion: If you're concerned about the drying time (very true if you go ahead with oil based poly), think about finishing every other tread. That way, you can still get up the stairs, albeit by skipping steps. When complete, finish the other treads, but find a way, such as painter's tape, to remind you which are the cured treads! :smile:


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## Andy Zeggert (Sep 8, 2014)

I would suggest CrystaLac Wood Grain Filler. It dries clear but it probably will take several coats to fill in staple holes and get a smooth substrate. If your going to stain, look at the CrystaLac Stainable Wood Paste Filler. After staining, brush on 3-5 coats of PolyOxide. Its durable, dries fast and will handle the heavy traffic.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

After a few mentioned water based poly I found this.

http://www.rustoleum.com/en/product-catalog/consumer-brands/varathane/crystal-clear-floor-finish

If the finished results are slightly amber that won't bother me at all. Won't be staining.


After applying the wood grain filler is it ok to use my orbital sander?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> After a few mentioned water based poly I found this.
> 
> http://www.rustoleum.com/en/product-catalog/consumer-brands/varathane/crystal-clear-floor-finish
> 
> ...


 Varathane for sure.

Orbital is ok, but be careful.....if there are any color variations from your sanding (like sanding through previous stain, etc) it will show.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Varathane it is!

I realize this may be impossible, especially from a picture on random computer monitors.
But can anyone tell what that tread actually is? Is it white oak, red oak etc? As far as I can tell there is no stain of any kind on it.

And if it's white oak or other, can I go by that when I buy the grain filler or is it more complicated than that due to the age?

The 2nd floor I believe is all yellow pine but it's completely different from the stairs. I just don't want that to confuse anyone in the 1st picture.


Sorry for all of the questions. I'm trying to learn what I'm working with.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I finish floors and stairs all the time. I would sand and prepare the wood. Fill any imperfections with a good wood filler made for the wood being used on. After it dries sand one more time. Clean and then apply the first three coats of finish. I use Bona Kemi Mega. After the third coat dries over night then sand til smooth and apply one final coat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are not in a hurry you might refinish every other step so you can walk up and down the steps without stepping on the newly finished steps. You just need to figure out how to keep the cat off of them. A water based floor would dry to touch faster however would not be as durable and would take more coats if that would help. As far as the filler I would use just a regular wood putty like Famowood. The red in the old wood is just the color stain chosen and the reason it may be hazy is it's old or perhaps just scuffed from walking on it. When you refinish the red color will go away. Lacquer would make a poor finish for a floor. You may be used to working with it and like it however it is too soft to use for that application. 

Normally you don't use grain filler on oak but there isn't any reason you can't use it. It just fills the open grain so you don't see the texture of the grain in the final finish. Grain filler is kind of like wood putty that is thinned down so you can brush it. You apply it and let it thicken to a paste and then squeege off the excess. After it dries overnight lightly sand any residue left on the surface of the wood and then stain and finish as normal. If you use an orbital sander to sand the grain filler don't get too aggressive with it. All you are trying to do is remove the excess left on the surface. I prefer to color the wood filler about the color of the stain you use so it doesn't make white streaks in the grain. The paint store can tint the grain filler the same way they tint paint. 

You should be able to color the stairs to at least match in color with the yellow pine flooring.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> If you are not in a hurry you might refinish every other step so you can walk up and down the steps without stepping on the newly finished steps. You just need to figure out how to keep the cat off of them. A water based floor would dry to touch faster however would not be as durable and would take more coats if that would help. As far as the filler I would use just a regular wood putty like Famowood. The red in the old wood is just the color stain chosen and the reason it may be hazy is it's old or perhaps just scuffed from walking on it. When you refinish the red color will go away. Lacquer would make a poor finish for a floor. You may be used to working with it and like it however it is too soft to use for that application.
> 
> Normally you don't use grain filler on oak but there isn't any reason you can't use it. It just fills the open grain so you don't see the texture of the grain in the final finish. Grain filler is kind of like wood putty that is thinned down so you can brush it. You apply it and let it thicken to a paste and then squeege off the excess. After it dries overnight lightly sand any residue left on the surface of the wood and then stain and finish as normal. If you use an orbital sander to sand the grain filler don't get too aggressive with it. All you are trying to do is remove the excess left on the surface. I prefer to color the wood filler about the color of the stain you use so it doesn't make white streaks in the grain. The paint store can tint the grain filler the same way they tint paint.
> 
> You should be able to color the stairs to at least match in color with the yellow pine flooring.



Honestly, I like the grain in oak so if that's the purpose of grain filler I'd rather not.

Here is a picture I took of the small area I did on the landing at the same time as the tread.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Normally grain filler is used on walnut or mahogany because it is considered a more formal wood and when finished the finish has a glass like finish on the surface as though you glued a sheet of glass to it. If you like to see the texture of oak in the finish then you shouldn't use grain filler. Also a glass like finish would make the steps more slick when wet and perhaps create a hazzard. 

Unless you are going to use a more agressive floor sander, sanding the finish might give you some trouble with the new finish. A orbital sander tends to remove the finish off the surface and doesn't remove enough wood off the surface. Then when you go to stain the wood here and there will likely be places the wood is still sealed from the old finish and won't stain as dark. If a orbital sander is the plan I would strip the old finish off with paint and varnish remover first and then sand. If you used a semi-paste remover such as Kleen Strip you can brush right up to the white paint without damaging the paint very much. After the finish is stripped the wood would have to be thoroughly rinsed with lacquer thinner and you wouldn't be able to do that very well without cutting the paint a little. After the steps are refinished you can always mask off the wood and go back and touch up the paint.


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## Paulespo (May 1, 2013)

I don't think you can do it all in one day or the weekend. Rushing through it would make a mess. Send the family to visit someone for a week and take your time.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Normally grain filler is used on walnut or mahogany because it is considered a more formal wood and when finished the finish has a glass like finish on the surface as though you glued a sheet of glass to it. If you like to see the texture of oak in the finish then you shouldn't use grain filler. Also a glass like finish would make the steps more slick when wet and perhaps create a hazzard.
> 
> Unless you are going to use a more agressive floor sander, sanding the finish might give you some trouble with the new finish. A orbital sander tends to remove the finish off the surface and doesn't remove enough wood off the surface. Then when you go to stain the wood here and there will likely be places the wood is still sealed from the old finish and won't stain as dark. If a orbital sander is the plan I would strip the old finish off with paint and varnish remover first and then sand. If you used a semi-paste remover such as Kleen Strip you can brush right up to the white paint without damaging the paint very much. After the finish is stripped the wood would have to be thoroughly rinsed with lacquer thinner and you wouldn't be able to do that very well without cutting the paint a little. After the steps are refinished you can always mask off the wood and go back and touch up the paint.



I'm not planning on using any stain at this time for a few reasons one being our living room floor isn't going to match anything else anyway so I figure why not keep the stairs natural.

Being I won't be using stain, will the oribtal sander be enough or should I still try to strip first?


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Paulespo said:


> I don't think you can do it all in one day or the weekend. Rushing through it would make a mess. Send the family to visit someone for a week and take your time.


After reading comments I agree and am setting up plans to give me a few days alone to work on this.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> Honestly, I like the grain in oak so if that's the purpose of grain filler I'd rather not.
> 
> Here is a picture I took of the small area I did on the landing at the same time as the tread.


 The sanding you did looks pretty good even though there are still some cross grain scratches, but the trick will be keeping it consistant like that throughout the staircase. If you sand the entire staircase and it looks like the spot you took a pic of, you should be good to go. All it takes is time........and it will take some time.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> I'm not planning on using any stain at this time for a few reasons one being our living room floor isn't going to match anything else anyway so I figure why not keep the stairs natural.
> 
> Being I won't be using stain, will the oribtal sander be enough or should I still try to strip first?


If you are not using stain then you might get by with a orbital sander. When you go from more coarse sandpaper to finer paper you might wet the wood to raise the grain. Raising the grain will make the sanding more effective. During this process if there is anything in the wood that would cause a color problem it will show up with the water on it. The wood wet with water will be very close to the color it will be with a finish on it. It's just better to find out if there is a problem before you are commited with the finish.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

As mentioned, I'd use a wood filler that has a matching color to your stairs when it dries. For a finish, water based poly will work well and fast but doesn't have the longevity that an oil based has, so it depends on your timeframe in that house.
When I do oak stairs this is the finish I use:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/271244303112?lpid=82
Use a natural hair brush and thin the first and last coats with mineral spirits. I don't do every other stair, just the amount of stairs I can reach in one sitting. It dries fast enough to walk on with cotton socks in 1/2 an hour or so, and that's the timeframe I use to put the next coat on. I do 5 coats.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

I keep hearing guys talking about Bona products.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

http://www.bona.com/en-US/United-States1/BonaSystem/Coatings/Finishes/Bona-Traffic-Antislip/


Bona Traffic Antislip.

Apparently I'll also need to use a sealer before applying the two part product?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> I keep hearing guys talking about Bona products.
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on this?
> 
> ...



Well, you don't need a sealer, but the Bona Antislip is a 2 part system which you have to add a hardner to. After it is mixed, it only has a 4 hour pot life and the coating takes 2-3 hours to dry in between coats. You would probably end up with a lot more waste and probably be more expensive in the long run when compared to a simple system such as the varathane. You would probably need 3 coats of the Bona.

Me personally, I would use the Varathane and walk away happy.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> I keep hearing guys talking about Bona products.
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on this?
> 
> ...


I've never heard of this product. With most any waterborne finish the first coat soaks into the wood and kind of dissappears. This is the main reason they recommend a sealer first. If you were using stain the sealer would be good as a barrier coat. Stain and waterborne finishes don't do well together because of the linseed oil. Also keep in mind a waterborne finish will take more coats and more sanding between coats before you achieve a nice finish. If you wet the wood during your sanding process note how rough it makes the wood. The water in the finish will do the same thing so you will have to do more sanding between coats to overcome this. The good thing about waterborne finishes is the low odor it has so you just have to weigh odor against elbow grease.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never heard of this product. With most any waterborne finish the first coat soaks into the wood and kind of dissappears. This is the main reason they recommend a sealer first. If you were using stain the sealer would be good as a barrier coat. Stain and waterborne finishes don't do well together because of the linseed oil. Also keep in mind a waterborne finish will take more coats and more sanding between coats before you achieve a nice finish. If you wet the wood during your sanding process note how rough it makes the wood. The water in the finish will do the same thing so you will have to do more sanding between coats to overcome this. The good thing about waterborne finishes is the low odor it has so you just have to weigh odor against elbow grease.


Hi Steve,

So does this mean I could probably get by without the sealer and just expect to have to do an extra coat or two or is this just asking for problems?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes, the finish will bond well to the raw wood. Extra coats and raising the grain is the only problem you will have. Before you get into it try some on some scrap oak and get some experience with it before commiting to the project. If you think it will be too labor intensive you could then decide whether to use sealer or not.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes, the finish will bond well to the raw wood. Extra coats and raising the grain is the only problem you will have. Before you get into it try some on some scrap oak and get some experience with it before commiting to the project. If you think it will be too labor intensive you could then decide whether to use sealer or not.


When using Bona, you do not need a sealer over bare wood or a stained wood. It contains over 30% solids, so it basically acts like a self sealer. :thumbsup:

But like I said, the only problem is the pot life versus the cure time. Once you mix it up and apply it, you have to wait 2-3 hours for it to dry (hopefully) and then apply your next coat, and the product you mixed up only has 4 hours pot life, and after the 4 hours it looses its properties. You will more than likely need 3 coats.

After 24 hours it is approximately only 75% cured, 90% cured at 72 hours, and it takes roughly a week to be 100% fully cured. The floor may be walked on after 24 hours, but remains susceptible to scuffing or marring until completely cured, which is 7 days after the final coat applied.
 ​ ​ So if you decide to use Bona, for a stained floor, make your final cut with 80-100 grit paper and screen to 80-100 grit. For an unstained floor, make your final cut with 80-100 grit paper and disc/screen to 120-150 grit. This burnishing will reduce the amount of grain raise.​


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> When using Bona, you do not need a sealer over bare wood or a stained wood. It contains over 30% solids, so it basically acts like a self sealer. :thumbsup:
> 
> But like I said, the only problem is the pot life versus the cure time. Once you mix it up and apply it, you have to wait 2-3 hours for it to dry (hopefully) and then apply your next coat, and the product you mixed up only has 4 hours pot life, and after the 4 hours it looses its properties. You will more than likely need 3 coats.
> 
> ...



Randy,
How would you say the final Bona Traffic product is vs something like Varathane floor is as far as durability, appearance etc?

My understanding which is only based on reading forums like this one is Bona Traffic is said to be night and day vs something like Varathane in regards to durability.

I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm asking because I don't know. :boat:

Looks like I have 42sqft to work on so I should be able to judge how much Bona to mix up for each coat. Sounds like I'll need around 1/2 a quart per coat, perhaps a whole quart for the first to be safe?


We currently have no plans of moving anytime in the future and with a month old baby in the house (who will be leaving during the work) I'm expecting these poor stairs to take a whole lot of abuse down the road.

I really do appreciate everyone responding and helping me out with this. :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> When using Bona, you do not need a sealer over bare wood or a stained wood. It contains over 30% solids, so it basically acts like a self sealer. :thumbsup:
> 
> But like I said, the only problem is the pot life versus the cure time. Once you mix it up and apply it, you have to wait 2-3 hours for it to dry (hopefully) and then apply your next coat, and the product you mixed up only has 4 hours pot life, and after the 4 hours it looses its properties. You will more than likely need 3 coats.
> 
> ...


I realize it is self sealing however with any waterborne finish the water in it will work you to death building a finish do to it raising the grain.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

The Bona Kemi Mega line would be good enough. The Traffic is awesome stuff but expensive and has a short pot life as has been brought out.

Also if you recoat within 48 hours there is no need to sand between coats. Save the sanding for just before the final coat.


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## Pop Pop (Jul 17, 2011)

Based on a recommendation of a flooring contractor friend, I used a product called Streetshoe on my stairs. It is a water based catalyzed product that contains uv inhibitors. It is available in satin and gloss versions. It is very wear resistant, easy to apply, dries fast, and very low odor. It is made by basic coatings. I Highly recommend it.

The every other step plan works very well if you need to use the steps and you, and the rest of the household can remember every other step.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> Randy,
> How would you say the final Bona Traffic product is vs something like Varathane floor is as far as durability, appearance etc?
> 
> My understanding which is only based on reading forums like this one is Bona Traffic is said to be night and day vs something like Varathane in regards to durability.
> ...


 In over all, I would choose varathane. The water based systems have the same advantages to oil modified urethanes without the odor. Varathane is durable and moisture resistant. If I went through the trouble of adding a hardner to a Bona system, I would opt for an acid-cured oil based system which is more durable than both the varathane and the bona. But my point is, you don't need to do that as the varathane is all you would need. It will save you time and money in the long run.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I realize it is self sealing however with any waterborne finish the water in it will work you to death building a finish do to it raising the grain.


 In this situation, the stairs have already had a finish on them, so the wood is already sealed, even with him sanding them back down. He could apply 2 coats of Bona, wait till it thoroughly dries, sand the second coat with 220 grit, and apply the 3 coat and be good to go.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> In this situation, the stairs have already had a finish on them, so the wood is already sealed, even with him sanding them back down. He could apply 2 coats of Bona, wait till it thoroughly dries, sand the second coat with 220 grit, and apply the 3 coat and be good to go.


I think you went a little far with that comment. If the wood is stripped or sanded back to bare wood it is no longer sealed. Water will raise the grain.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

This brings up another concern of mine.
If I use Bona Amberseal do I risk the same problems I would with stain if I do not sand down far enough?

Also, even though I see no mention of it in the instructions when using a water based product like Varathane or any water based poly should a sealer really still be used for best results?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I think you went a little far with that comment. If the wood is stripped or sanded back to bare wood it is no longer sealed. Water will raise the grain.


Sorry, I should have said he didn't sand all the way back to bare wood. You can still see the cross grain scratch marks where he sanded and it appears to still have a finish still on those marks. But in a lot of cases, when you seal wood it goes deep into the pores, and you would have to sand it way down into the whitewood to get past the penetration of most sealers......hence you wouldn't have grain raise unless you sand past the sealer coat, which in most cases can be quit hard to do. Even when you wash wood off with acetone or other products and sand, the sealer is still there.

Either way, if he applies 2 coats of the Bona, even if its sanded all the way back to the bare wood, he could then sand after the second coat and apply the 3rd coat of Bona and be ok.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> This brings up another concern of mine.
> If I use Bona Amberseal do I risk the same problems I would with stain if I do not sand down far enough?
> 
> Also, even though I see no mention of it in the instructions when using a water based product like Varathane or any water based poly should a sealer really still be used for best results?


 If you do not sand the entire stair case, floor landing, etc. evenly you will have and see a discoloration throughout the wood no matter what you put on. Prep work is key.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> Sorry, I should have said he didn't sand all the way back to bare wood. You can still see the cross grain scratch marks where he sanded and it appears to still have a finish still on those marks.
> 
> Either way, if he applies 2 coats of the Bona, even if its sanded all the way back to the bare wood, he could then sand after the second coat and apply the 3rd coat of Bona and be ok.





RandyReed said:


> If you do not sand the entire stair case, floor landing, etc. evenly you will have and see a discoloration throughout the wood no matter what you put on. Prep work is key.




I learned this the hard way with painting. Painting is easy, getting ready for it is not. 

If a palm sander is not enough I'll just have to get another tool.
I always like an excuse to buy a new tool. :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You might pick up a palm sander of this type to help sanding the stairs. A orbital sander does very well but this one will sand up to the corners. http://www.harborfreight.com/palm-sander-98622.html


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> You might pick up a palm sander of this type to help sanding the stairs. A orbital sander does very well but this one will sand up to the corners. http://www.harborfreight.com/palm-sander-98622.html


Apparently mine is a Dewalt variable speed random-orbit sander.
Didn't realize there was a difference until just now.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> Apparently mine is a Dewalt variable speed random-orbit sander.
> Didn't realize there was a difference until just now.


I mostly use random-orbital sanders but I bought that one to do inside corners.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I mostly use random-orbital sanders but I bought that one to do inside corners.


Yeah, it looks interesting.
How has it lasted so far?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> Yeah, it looks interesting.
> How has it lasted so far?


I've only had it a month so I can't say how long it lasts. I refinished a couple of pieces of furniture that had a bunch of drawers in it and the sander worked great for sanding the inside of the drawers. The orbital sanders I have are made with a 5" round disc so they wouldn't sand up to the corners. Until I bought that sander I was having to finish the sanding in the corners by hand.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi all,

Sorry for the long delay but other things came up and the project got pushed off to the side.

I have 90% of the stairs sanded and am currently doing the edging and other details which, so far is torture. I've gone through more sanding discs and sandpaper then I could ever imagine and anything above 50 grit is useless when it comes to removing the finish.

I've run into a problem and I'm not sure how to proceed. I want to keep the oak it's nature color, however there is a darkening where the previous finish was worn through and ignored for years. I've sanded, and sanded and this doesn't seem to want to go away.

*A few have recommended bleaching the wood with oxalic acid. Has anyone done this before, or have any recommendations? *

Unfortunately I don't know exactly what made the stain other than it's where the finish was worn off. I've included quite a few pictures to try and give the best view of the stains and the condition of the previous finish.

Not sure what the previous finish was other than it was really dark and alcohol doesn't appear to remove it, at least not before the alcohol evaporates.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I know this is the last thing you want to hear but the stairs need more sanding. The discoloration is still the old finish and stain. You need to stick with the 50x paper until you have the discoloration almost gone before changing to finer paper. The finer paper is used just to remove the damage and swirl marks the 50x paper does. It also helps if you wet the wood from time to time with water and raise the grain. Wood grain tends to mash down and resist sanding and water will raise the grain. You could have prevented a great deal of sanding if you had started with paint and varnish remover but that would have been a pain to try to keep it off everything else. 

Oxalic acid is only good on stains such as water damage and mineral stains. It won't help on wood stain which you have.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I know this is the last thing you want to hear but the stairs need more sanding. The discoloration is still the old finish and stain. You need to stick with the 50x paper until you have the discoloration almost gone before changing to finer paper. The finer paper is used just to remove the damage and swirl marks the 50x paper does. It also helps if you wet the wood from time to time with water and raise the grain. Wood grain tends to mash down and resist sanding and water will raise the grain. You could have prevented a great deal of sanding if you had started with paint and varnish remover but that would have been a pain to try to keep it off everything else.
> 
> Oxalic acid is only good on stains such as water damage and mineral stains. It won't help on wood stain which you have.



Hi Steve,
As you know I have no previous experience with this, however I am confused as to why you think there was stain on the wood? In the areas where the finish was intact all of the dark came right off with the finish, fairly easy using 40 grit paper. As far as I know, I did not remove much if any wood in those areas and they are bright clean red oak. I would have expected to do a lot more sanding in order to remove a wood stain?

I don't know what the finish was other than it seems to have discolored with time. Some areas were a fairly light amber color and others were a dark red and even purple color which is why I suspect it is the finish that turned colors rather than a stain.

Would a stain have come off that easily in areas that had not been worn through?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Elbow grease! Get mad at it! :furious:

Yeah, the only way your gonna get that off is to sand it. Not sure if it was stained or not, but definitely a finish still left in those areas. When done, it should look the same all over.

I also suggest putting tape on the moldings to at least try to not sand into those areas of the trim. 

Bleaching will only help if its raw wood. If it has a finish on it, the bleach will not help you.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

More sanding it will be.

I need to finish doing all of the edging and other details before I can get to that. Luckily it seems like sanding the wood is much much nicer than removing the finish.

Doing the edging and around spindles is killing me.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> More sanding it will be.
> 
> I need to finish doing all of the edging and other details before I can get to that. Luckily it seems like sanding the wood is much much nicer than removing the finish.
> 
> Doing the edging and around spindles is killing me.


The wood has hard and soft places where the stain and finish penetrates the soft wood easier than the hard places. Where you are with the sanding is you have the hard places sanded down below the original finish however the soft places are still there. Highlighted in red is some of the places we are seeing when we say it needs more sanding.

You might reduce some of the work load with a belt sander. The areas within three or four inches of the wall and balisters could be done with a belt sander. It would be more aggressive than your orbital.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

It's Ash, not Oak.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> It's Ash, not Oak.


Long time no see. Where have you been hiding? 

No clearer than the pictures are it could be either wood.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

I'm thinking these links might give you bigger pictures.

Now I'm wondering it is ash or red oak. Is there an easy way to tell? I swore it was red oak.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd....0_10152729974991253_9034001216773321285_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd....6_10152730283661253_7381021672892693734_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd....1_10152730283591253_5808100951254202013_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd....1_10152730283571253_3376590804233067869_o.jpg


I'll be going over all of it with 80 grit and then 120 grit.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm leaning toward ash now. Can you get a closer picture?


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm leaning toward ash now. Can you get a closer picture?



How are these?
You can zoom in pretty good on those as they are decent resolution. Not sure if the landing is the same wood as the treads or not as it seems lighter. The treads have a reddish look, especially the dust from sanding. Unfortunately all I have is my cellphone right now and I had to use a flash so color is completely useless in those pictures.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1011...ms/6070268050326666881?authkey=CIKW9LLmnZmZBw


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Could be Ash.....maybe thats why there were areas where stain looked like it had penetrated more in different areas than others. Oak doesnt really do that because its a harder wood.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> How are these?
> You can zoom in pretty good on those as they are decent resolution. Not sure if the landing is the same wood as the treads or not as it seems lighter. The treads have a reddish look, especially the dust from sanding. Unfortunately all I have is my cellphone right now and I had to use a flash so color is completely useless in those pictures.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1011...ms/6070268050326666881?authkey=CIKW9LLmnZmZBw


I was really wanting a picture like this. Oak has lines in it like this. If your steps don't have these anywhere then it's ash. Both woods have soft spots that will accept the stain more but ash normally has larger areas. I believe you have the hard northern ash. Southern ash normally has more swirls in the grain and is much softer.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I was really wanting a picture like this. Oak has lines in it like this. If your steps don't have these anywhere then it's ash. Both woods have soft spots that will accept the stain more but ash normally has larger areas. I believe you have the hard northern ash. Southern ash normally has more swirls in the grain and is much softer.


I'll see if I can get a closer picture tonight.
Not home now,but I'm almost positive the treads do have the rays as that was how I determined it was red oak and not white oak. 

Red oak has many short rays where white has many long and often continuous ones.

At least I think they were referred to as "rays"? Hopefully I'm using the right word.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> How are these?
> You can zoom in pretty good on those as they are decent resolution. Not sure if the landing is the same wood as the treads or not as it seems lighter. The treads have a reddish look, especially the dust from sanding. Unfortunately all I have is my cellphone right now and I had to use a flash so color is completely useless in those pictures.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/photos/1011...ms/6070268050326666881?authkey=CIKW9LLmnZmZBw


After looking at picture number 2 close up......I think its oak. 

Either way, keep sanding. :laughing: LOL.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> After looking at picture number 2 close up......I think its oak.
> 
> Either way, keep sanding. :laughing: LOL.


Have another look just to be sure, I added two close ups.

https://plus.google.com/photos/10115...CIKW9LLmnZmZBw

And yeah.... more sanding....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The link isn't working for me.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The link isn't working for me.


Strange,

Try this one : https://plus.google.com/photos/1011...ms/6070268050326666881?authkey=CIKW9LLmnZmZBw


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes that one worked and it is red oak. Just goes to show how much the two woods look alike. I've seen quite a bit of furniture where ash was mixed with oak.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes that one worked and it is red oak. Just goes to show how much the two woods look alike. I've seen quite a bit of furniture where ash was mixed with oak.


Me too. I just finished a bedroom group that was poplar, rubberwood and maple. What a nightmare!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Me too. I just finished a bedroom group that was poplar, rubberwood and maple. What a nightmare!


Sounds like a good candidate for gel stain with added toners. :laughing: I have a dining room table I'm refinishing for a customer that is figured walnut with ambrosia banding around the top and the original finish had so much toner on it you couldn't see what kind of wood was on the top. The problem is she insists on having the new finish put back like it was even though I sent her pictures of the nice wood. I can't bring myself to do it. I started yesterday trying to color the wood to reduce the amount of toner in order to make the new finish more transparent.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Sounds like a good candidate for gel stain with added toners. :laughing: I have a dining room table I'm refinishing for a customer that is figured walnut with ambrosia banding around the top and the original finish had so much toner on it you couldn't see what kind of wood was on the top. The problem is she insists on having the new finish put back like it was even though I sent her pictures of the nice wood. I can't bring myself to do it. I started yesterday trying to color the wood to reduce the amount of toner in order to make the new finish more transparent.


LOL, I understand.

I had a customer come in last week and wanted me to shade up a medium cherry colored bedroom suit, (that was finished and used in the furniture market for the last 4 years) to a darker panel he provided for me. I used an espresso dye stain I made and didnt quit shade up to the color panel because if I did, you would not be able to see the grain. He came and looked at it and insisted it needed to be darker even though I told him that he would not be able to see the grain. So....I shaded a drawer, cleared it, and let him look at it while he was still here with me and he loved it. COULDNT SEE THE GRAIN!

Anyway, moral of the story that I learned a loooong time ago:

"It's there's.....not mine" :laughing:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yea I know it's theirs, but to almost paint this? Gees


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## Black540i (Jan 4, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> Yea I know it's theirs, but to almost paint this? Gees


I think I'd rather give them their money back. That's gorgeous. 

On topic, my stairs are 130 years old as well. Rather than spend a billion hours sanding I replaced my treads with barnwood. Came out great.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Yea I know it's theirs, but to almost paint this? Gees


Do you have a picture of the table before you got it down to the white wood? It would have to be alot of toner to cover that up and even it out.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Do you have a picture of the table before you got it down to the white wood? It would have to be alot of toner to cover that up and even it out.


No, I didn't take a picture until I stripped it and emailed the customer the picture to describe what she had. Who ever finished the table put a clear sealer on first and then put multiple coats of toner on it. There was no difference in color between the walnut and the ambrosia. Going back I put an oil stain on first to get most of the color and will probably put some toner on it tomorrow.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Who ever finished the table put a clear sealer on first and then put multiple coats of toner on it. There was no difference in color between the walnut and the ambrosia.


Maybe they applied a purple walnut sap stain to even out the ambrosia and walnut from the get go, then applied a toner or shaded the crap out of it between the last 2 coats to get to the color they wanted. That would definitely be alot of stain piled on the boarders at the end if they didnt,  

I get all kinds of step panels where the person used about 7 steps just to get to the final color and Im always asked to see if I can come up with an easier finishing schedule. Most of the time I can get them in 2-3 steps )depending on the look) with alot more clarity due to the fact that I get 80-90%% of my color in my first step with dye stains I make, then use a weak wipe stain to define the grain. Sometimes I make a weak penetrating stain and dont even use a wipe stain, it just depends on what Im matching.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

I finally got around to emptying the shop vac before going to 120 grit and I cannot believe how much I sanded. The filter in the vacuum was smooth it was so packed with dust and the vacuum was 1/4 full of dust. I guess I should have emptied it 5 times before this one.  It's hard to tell how much dust you're making when you never see it.

So far I've done two coats of Basic Coatings Emulsion pro on as a sealer and to give color. First coating seemed really rough but their tech support recommended doing two coats before sanding and to my surprise the second coat is still rough, but not as bad.

Not sure if it's how I applied it, or if it's just the nature of the beast. Emulsion Pro is a water based poly that apparently cures by oxidizing much like an oil based poly. It also gives a slight amber color like oil based poly which is why I chose it as a base coat / sealer. After lightly sanding tomorrow I'll be applying the two top coats using Basic Coating's 2 part water based Hydroline Plus. I think my main concern right now is if it's how I'm applying it, I'd guess the top coats are going to come out rough feeling as well. 

They aren't perfect, but they are a lot better than before and overall I'm pleased with the progress.

Sorry for the poor quality lighting in the pictures, I have the area blocked off with plastic tarps to keep our cats off of the stairs for now and it's dark outside so I was relying on one lamp and a cellphone camera.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Looks good.

When your second coat dries thoroughly, scuff sand lightly with 320 grit to remove the nibs that are now raised from applying the stain to the raw wood. Then apply a 3rd coat and you should have a smooth surface. Remember to sand with the grain! :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Been gone too long, we kinda went off topic. 

I believe with the dark spaces still in the wood I believe I would have put some stain on it to make the light wood match the dark spots. Before you get to the last coat you could spray some toner on the light wood to even it up a little. It will help but it won't make the spots go away. There are several places you can get toners in a aerosol can. One of them is Mohawk Finishing Products.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Been gone too long, we kinda went off topic.
> 
> I believe with the dark spaces still in the wood I believe I would have put some stain on it to make the light wood match the dark spots. Before you get to the last coat you could spray some toner on the light wood to even it up a little. It will help but it won't make the spots go away. There are several places you can get toners in a aerosol can. One of them is Mohawk Finishing Products.


Hi Steve,

I think anything like that is beyond my capabilities. I had considered stain, but I think I would have made things far worse.

You guys do beautiful work and it is very difficult and highly skilled work and every man must know his weakness. :thumbsup:

I just hit a few of the rough spots by hand using a 220 grit sanding disc and then wiped with a damp cloth and it actually took all of the roughness away. I'm surprised.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Been gone too long, we kinda went off topic.
> 
> I believe with the dark spaces still in the wood I believe I would have put some stain on it to make the light wood match the dark spots. Before you get to the last coat you could spray some toner on the light wood to even it up a little. It will help but it won't make the spots go away. There are several places you can get toners in a aerosol can. One of them is Mohawk Finishing Products.


That might be just the lighting in the picture. Hes only applied a sealer.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> That might be just the lighting in the picture. Hes only applied a sealer.



Nope, he is correct, there are dark areas in the treads where the previous finish was worn through.

No matter how much wood I took off they remained. The good news is the wife is ok with the results.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think the last picture where it is dark in the center is a high traffic area where at some time or another the finish has been worn off and stained the wood. 

Chris, a toner is like a very thin transparent brown paint you can just spray on and shade as needed and when it dries put the finish over the top. It's normally put on very very thin to make fine adjustments on the color.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ChrisJ said:


> Nope, he is correct, there are dark areas in the treads where the previous finish was worn through.
> 
> No matter how much wood I took off they remained. The good news is the wife is ok with the results.


Oh OK. My bad. :icon_smile:

If you do decide to use a toner, make sure you sneak up on it when shading up the lighter spots. 

I suggest using a dye stain as a shade because if you go too far and get it too dark, you can use a piece of steel wool or a scotch brite and highlite it back down and even out the color. Toners and pigmented stains sometimes can obscure the grain if used heavily in between clear coats. Dye stains remain transparent unless you have to "pile it on" and by the pictures, I dont think you need to do that at all.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You know it just dawned on me a toner may be a bad idea. If and when the finish gets worn through again it will take the color off having color between the layers of finish. Chris would have to make sure the stairs regularly have a fresh coat of clear on the them to prevent this.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Fortunately the parts of the stairs that are now darker are the high travel areas and those are the areas that will not be getting shade......only the areas that are closer to the walls, etc and not the high traffic areas will get the shade and will not get worn through so fast.

But you are right, a regularly applied fresh coat of finish will help keep the overall look. "Pre-maintenance" if you will.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> Fortunately the parts of the stairs that are now darker are the high travel areas and those are the areas that will not be getting shade......only the areas that are closer to the walls, etc and not the high traffic areas will get the shade and will not get worn through so fast.
> 
> *But you are right, a regularly applied fresh coat of finish will help keep the overall look. "Pre-maintenance" if you will.*


I hope I don't have to do it too regularly.
The minimum I can buy of the 2 part waterborne finish coat is 1 gallon @ $80 a gallon plus shipping and it has a shelf life of 1 year. It's a shame being all I need for a single coat is around 16 ounces or so.


Something I'm curious about is if working with normal waterborne polyurethane is the same as this stuff was in regards to leveling and bubbles. It said to keep air circulation to a minimum for 30 minutes after applying to allow it to level. During that it seemed like any lines, overlaps and bubbles vanished. I was also surprised to see the instructions on the product tell you to shake it rather than gently stir and then let it sit for 10 minutes to allow bubbles to pop.

Is this basically how any waterborne polyurethane is?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

A normal polyurethane is not catalyzed so what you have is a different animal and can be expected to work a little different. If you have an refrigerator in you shop you can prolong the shelf life by keeping it in the fridge and if you don't mix what is left over together you will have some finish for some time to come. Personally I don't like shaking any finish. I prefer to stir.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> A normal polyurethane is not catalyzed so what you have is a different animal and can be expected to work a little different. If you have an refrigerator in you shop you can prolong the shelf life by keeping it in the fridge and if you don't mix what is left over together you will have some finish for some time to come. Personally I don't like shaking any finish. I prefer to stir.


Stirred and not shaken for you eh? :laughing:

How long do you think the shelf life could be extended if I refrigerate it?

I restore 1930s GE Monitor Top refrigerators so keeping some cold won't be a problem.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I am still going with Ash. See how the grain is pointy or V shaped at the ends? Red Oak is not like that. They always called ash, poor mans Oak.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 8, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am still going with Ash. See how the grain is pointy or V shaped at the ends? Red Oak is not like that. They always called ash, poor mans Oak.


Like this, or is it a finer detail I missed?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> Stirred and not shaken for you eh? :laughing:
> 
> How long do you think the shelf life could be extended if I refrigerate it?
> 
> I restore 1930s GE Monitor Top refrigerators so keeping some cold won't be a problem.


Not knowing what the product is and especially not having experience with it I would just have to take a wild guess. My experience with refrigerating finishes is it doubles the shelf life. Just be sure it doesn't freeze since it is a water based finish.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Both oak and ash can have grain that comes to a v. Ash doesn't have the short rays in the grain though.


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