# Best table top finish?



## Barn owl (Jul 1, 2013)

Hey guys, I'd like some opinions on the best table top finish based on my needs and abilities. I make a lot of tables out of a small shop. Space is a premium, but so is the turn around times of my projects. 

I am currently using oil base polyurethane on my tops and I like the durability and look I get from it. What I HATE is the finishing schedule and dry time...By the time the top and bottom are completed with the same schedule, I've had the top around for a week. 

I spray a sherwin Williams pre-cat lacquer on all of my table bases and love it! Quick drying, easy application, very happy with the results. 

Here's what I'm struggling with - I'd love to spray the same pre-cat on my tops, but I've heard some horror stories about weakness of the finish for table tops and most importantly its sensitivity to heat. I do not want white rings and trivets sticking to a customers top. To top that off, I've been making a lot of tops for the restaurant industry. Try applying oil poly on 50 tables tops for a restaurant out of a 750sq/ft shop. Argh! 


Is there a relatively hard wearing, sprayable finish with a relatively short dry time suitable for table tops that will be used daily? I appreciate any help.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You might try a fully catalyzed lacquer. It has a more aggressive hardener. The bad is you mix it as you use it and what is left over at the end of the day is trash so you have to be careful how much you mix. Another option would be a conversion varnish. It would be a harder and better finish than the poly you are using and lacquer. It has a drying time about like fast dry polyurethane and is catalyzed like the catalyzed lacquer. Most has a shelf life of about 8 hours once the catalyst is mixed in.


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## Barn owl (Jul 1, 2013)

Thank you, Steve. I thought about Enduro by General Finishes. Is that a brand you would recommend? Also, have you used a fully canalized lacquer, which brand did you like?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I haven't used Enduro before, mainly because it's a waterborn finish and I like solvent based finishes better. The last fully catalyzed lacquer I used was made by gemini. Actually I think sherwin williams lacquer is made by gemini. I was in their warehouse one time and they were putting sherwin williams labels on cans they had filled.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Waterbase polyurethanes work very well on furniture and table tops. There are many that are formulated for flooring that are durable. They spray well, stay clear, dry fast, an easy clean up. One you could try is Parks Pro Finisher, available at Home Depot.


















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## Barn owl (Jul 1, 2013)

Thank you both for your input!


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Never used the waterborne polys, but if you're looking for simplicity of application and durability its kinda hard to beat an oil based poly. From personal experience the only thing I can think of would be an epoxy finish that'd match it in durability, that I know of and have seen used anyhow


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## Barn owl (Jul 1, 2013)

epicfail48 said:


> Never used the waterborne polys, but if you're looking for simplicity of application and durability its kinda hard to beat an oil based poly. From personal experience the only thing I can think of would be an epoxy finish that'd match it in durability, that I know of and have seen used anyhow


I agree that oil poly's durability is hard to beat, but the finish schedule is killing production. It literally stops the shop and to finish a top completely takes a week. There has to be something with similar durability, spray application and quicker dry times. 

I think I'm going in the direction of the General Finishes and see what the results are. I'm going to test a few of their water based products, including the water lacquer. 10-30 minute dry times, sprayable, hard finish and good resistance to alcohol a reasonable heat resistance. Will see I guess.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are going with a water based coating I suggest you put a single coat of Zinsser Sealcoat on the wood first. Use it like a sanding sealer so the water in the finish doesn't raise the grain so much. Your topcoat will build faster if you seal it first.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> You might try a fully catalyzed lacquer. It has a more aggressive hardener. The bad is you mix it as you use it and what is left over at the end of the day is trash so you have to be careful how much you mix. Another option would be a conversion varnish. It would be a harder and better finish than the poly you are using and lacquer. It has a drying time about like fast dry polyurethane and is catalyzed like the catalyzed lacquer. Most has a shelf life of about 8 hours once the catalyst is mixed in.


+1

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I haven't used Enduro before, mainly because it's a waterborn finish and I like solvent based finishes better. The last fully catalyzed lacquer I used was made by gemini. Actually I think sherwin williams lacquer is made by gemini. I was in their warehouse one time and they were putting sherwin williams labels on cans they had filled.


I'm using some of the Gemini finishes. So far so good. They recommend using their sealer first and I have had better results when I do. It greatly increases the adhesion and durability.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Barn owl said:


> I agree that oil poly's durability is hard to beat, but the finish schedule is killing production. It literally stops the shop and to finish a top completely takes a week. There has to be something with similar durability, spray application and quicker dry times.
> 
> I think I'm going in the direction of the General Finishes and see what the results are. I'm going to test a few of their water based products, including the water lacquer. 10-30 minute dry times, sprayable, hard finish and good resistance to alcohol a reasonable heat resistance. Will see I guess.


Have you tried asking one of the professional suppliers. Gemini was at one of my suppliers and they answered many tough questions that day. They have tons of different products and very happy to help. Another would be Mohawk. 

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> I'm using some of the Gemini finishes. So far so good. They recommend using their sealer first and I have had better results when I do. It greatly increases the adhesion and durability.
> 
> Al


When I opened my first shop in the city limits of Dallas I was about 2 miles from a plant where Gemini mixed lacquer so I bought all the lacquer from Gemini I sprayed for a couple of years. At the time though I was only spraying nitro lacquer. There is no telling how many different brands of paint were made by Gemini. They were putting all different company labels on cans they were filling. It's been so long ago I can only remember Sherwin Williams.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Barn owl said:


> I agree that oil poly's durability is hard to beat, but the finish schedule is killing production. It literally stops the shop and to finish a top completely takes a week. There has to be something with similar durability, spray application and quicker dry times.
> 
> I think I'm going in the direction of the General Finishes and see what the results are. I'm going to test a few of their water based products, including the water lacquer. 10-30 minute dry times, sprayable, hard finish and good resistance to alcohol a reasonable heat resistance. Will see I guess.


If you check what they call "water lacquer' it has the same basic composite as waterbase polyurethane. I don't use any sealer with Wb poly's, and the grain raising is minimal, and gets sanded with normal in between applications.


















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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> When I opened my first shop in the city limits of Dallas I was about 2 miles from a plant where Gemini mixed lacquer so I bought all the lacquer from Gemini I sprayed for a couple of years. At the time though I was only spraying nitro lacquer. There is no telling how many different brands of paint were made by Gemini. They were putting all different company labels on cans they were filling. It's been so long ago I can only remember Sherwin Williams.


Steve are you using sealer with the Pre cat? I have found it really makes sanding much faster and the next two coats go on even and level out well.

Al


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> I'm using some of the Gemini finishes. So far so good. They recommend using their sealer first and I have had better results when I do. It greatly increases the adhesion and durability.
> 
> Al


Of course they would. They sell you more products that way.:yes: And in doing so it must figure that the adhesion and durability is incresed. Wishful thinking...and more expensive to boot.


















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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> Steve are you using sealer with the Pre cat? I have found it really makes sanding much faster and the next two coats go on even and level out well.
> 
> Al


Of course sanding would be faster. A sanding sealer is much softer than the topcoat. Any topcoat can be thinned and used as a sealer. It provides a much better base for the topcoat.

















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Steve are you using sealer with the Pre cat? I have found it really makes sanding much faster and the next two coats go on even and level out well.
> 
> Al


I've never seen anyone that didn't use some kind of sealer with lacquer. With a pre-catalyzed lacquer I always use a vinyl sanding sealer.


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## Barn owl (Jul 1, 2013)

As a follow up, I contacted General Finishes and asked about which product they suggested i use on my tops. To my surprise, the rep said the pro Poly formula would be the best choice for residential table tops. For commercial tops, it was suggested in use their Conversion varnish. The rep indicated that the CV may be overkill on residential tops. But, I like overkill....its better than the alternative. 

I appreciate everyone who took the time to offer a suggestion. I think I will be buying both and start playing around to see how each sprays and the slight amber tone I was told I would get from the CV. Thanks again, guys


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never seen anyone that didn't use some kind of sealer with lacquer. With a pre-catalyzed lacquer I always use a vinyl sanding sealer.


Well I've been posted over by some here that say its not needed and that they didn't use it. One of the robo posters that left said he didn't use it. Anyway good deal.

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Well I've been posted over by some here that say its not needed and that they didn't use it. One of the robo posters that left said he didn't use it. Anyway good deal.
> 
> Al


A person would have to like to do a bunch of unnecessary work to not use a sealer. On a large project you could have job done before you would get half way sanding straight lacquer. Since lacquer doesn't sand well it would take an extra coat to do what the vinyl sealer does anyway so there isn't any reason not to use it.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> A person would have to like to do a bunch of unnecessary work to not use a sealer. On a large project you could have job done before you would get half way sanding straight lacquer. Since lacquer doesn't sand well it would take an extra coat to do what the vinyl sealer does anyway so there isn't any reason not to use it.


Couldn't agree with you more. When I suggested they try it. It wasn't well received.

Al


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## Trekker (Jul 3, 2014)

*Isocyanate -- Read and understand MSDS*



Barn owl said:


> For commercial tops, it was suggested in use their Conversion varnish. The rep indicated that the CV may be overkill on residential tops. But, I like overkill....its better than the alternative


The General Finishes Conversion Varnish is a waterborne 2k polyurethane (not a traditional conversion varnish), also known as a 2k (for two-component) finish, or LPU. It's a common commercial finish and similar to the clearcoat on your car. You should be able to find similar finishes from many suppliers (the suppliers purchase the resins from major chemical suppliers like Dow and Bayer and then mix them in their own blend).

The most important thing to know about 2k finishes is that they use an Isocyanate hardener that more or less mandates a supplied air respirator, full facemask, gloves, and suit. You can find out more about the safety aspects by reading up on how to paint a car yourself. Some get away with a standard organic filter on their respirator, but isocyanates don't have an odor so you don't know when the filter is ineffective. Please peruse and understand the MSDS.

As far as application and preparation goes, the mixing is the trickiest part. You need to get the ratios correct, mix long enough, and wait the recommended sweat-in time. The spraying part is fine; it's just another finish.

2k finishes are the best finish for tabletops, but the safety aspects put it out of reach for most home users and small shops without spray booths and supplied air respirators.

The big guys would probably spray the tables with a polyester grain filler followed by a 2k urethane. A finish of any look (thickness, tone, reflectivity) can be created and the finishes dry fast.


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