# How did they make this casing?



## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

This casing is in the two "parlors" in our 1893 victorian home. I've been in a lot of historic homes and never seen casing like this. I also am pretty familiar with machining techniques and can not imagine how this was made. 

Can anyone describe the process in which this was milled? It's not applied. I've cut several pieces and see no glue joints. It's all one piece. Maybe pressed?

TX

Bill


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

If it is original to the house, I would say it was all done by hand.

Hand planes, profile planes, chisels, gouges, knives etc.

Sure is pretty. :smile:


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## bb71 (Jan 23, 2010)

I think its too uniform to be by hand. Having said that I have no idea how it was done. One thing for sure, it's VERY nice and probably irreplaceable. I guess a CNC and a lot of $ could reproduce it.

BTW - great manicure Bill!  (or is that your better half?)


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

My best guess is that it's not original to the house. It possibly replaced original casing. For woodwork that old, die pressing might have been possible, or done by hand. It just looks too perfect to have been done that way. My other thought is, are you sure it's wood?












 







.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

*Don't think so...*

Gentlemen (and/or ladies),

mdntrdr, bb71, and cabinetman,

First, we purchased this home from my inlaws who acquired it in the early 1940's. They seemed to think the casing is original and the orange shellac used for the varnish matches everything else in the house. So I do believe it was made in the late 1800's.

Secondly, it definately is wood. I know it's oak to be precise since I've been working with it. 

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure it's machined because it's SO UNIFORM. There are no variations in the depths or dims of the details. In thirteen seven foot verticals and seven heads there is only one obvious flaw and it looks like a machine chip out. I've attached another picture which I think indicates machining.

Fourthly, thanks for the complements on my manicure. You don't know how hard it is to maintain those fine looking nails while working in my shop (my 19 yr old daughter actually).

I'm thinking they might have used a molder of some sort whose head oscillated or the work was moved laterally while being fed. But I'm still waiting on a definative answer.

Thanks,

Bill


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Whats with the horrific trim screws?

There's a possibility they are not original... :smile:


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Can't say for sure, but it looks molded. A mold like that nowadays would be extremely expensive to build. They may have used something like a Rose Engine to make those cuts...?


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## bb71 (Jan 23, 2010)

mdntrdr said:


> Whats with the horrific trim screws?
> 
> There's a possibility they are not original... :smile:


 
Those look like finishing nails to me! But you are right - they're probably not original.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

*Mia Culpa...*

Ok, point taken.

The plaster was falling off the walls of that room so I removed all the trim, put up 1/2" drywall on the ceilings and walls, added 1/2" jamb extensions on all the doors and windows then reapplied the casing. So I didn't want to use cut nails - shoot me.

FYI, I'm in the process of puttying and shellacing the nail holes. 

Do you know how long a nail needs to be to get through 7/8" casing, 1/2" drywall and 3/4" plaster and lath? I found 3" a bit short and 3.5" just right. I'm sure the casing will now hold up the house. 

Again, I'm pretty sure it's molded but what's a "Rose Engine" that H.A.S. mentioned? (and how does it work?)

BTW, In case anyone is interested in cool tools, I build windows for historic properties and claim some bragging rights. I have an Altendorf slideing table saw, a 10HP Onsrud overarm router, a Tannewitz table saw, a Maka four head oscillating chisle mortiser, a Powermatic 2A tennoner with coping heads, a powermatic/belsaw planer/molder with a corrugated head to handle corrugated knives, a two way 5' x 8' window and door pneumatic frame clamp and a 15hp, 4500 cfm Murphy Rogers cyclone dust collector. I had 480V 200A 3ph power run in from the pole. 

I'm interested in hearing about other folks equipment too.

Bill


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## Hammered Toes (Mar 16, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> This casing is in the two "parlors" in our 1893 victorian home. I've been in a lot of historic homes and never seen casing like this. I also am pretty familiar with machining techniques and can not imagine how this was made.
> 
> Can anyone describe the process in which this was milled? It's not applied. I've cut several pieces and see no glue joints. It's all one piece. Maybe pressed?
> 
> ...


My wife and I visited my daughter and son-in-law when they lived in Appleton, WI, and they took us to The Hearthstone Historical House Museum, that had this type of interior woodwork. The signs said it was made by by hand by German craftsman that Henry J. Rogers imported for the task. The "gingerbread" that was around the outside eaves, etc, was also handmade and was almost as delicately made as the interior work was. 

Rogers owned the Wisconsin Pulp and Paper Company, so I guess he could afford the great expense of a team of craftsmen that charged, I believe the sign said, a "whopping" 75 cents a day per man..


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## Improv (Aug 13, 2008)

If you remember 'Spirograph', I think that is how they were made.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

I don't remember spirograph. Can you describe?

Bill


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## Stefflus (Apr 13, 2011)

The beads on either side of the center flat, are they level (or lower) than the flat, or protruding?
If they protrude I can't see how it was machined.

EDIT:
The more I look at it the worse it gets.. and if not for the picture of the flaw I would have gone back to thinking it was handmade.
I'm thinking a vertical bit is pretty much out of the question, what with the different profile on lentals and the wavy bead.
And I agree with you about the flaw, it looks like the workpiece jumped around a little. -But that means the cutter that did that had to both oscillate and change its axis' angle?? And if so, did it only cut the wavy bead and some flat or the lentals also? My head hurts.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

*Beads*

If you mean the wavy beads, they are above the flat. If you mean the straight/parallel beads, they are relieved below the flat. 

Like I said, I've been working with this stuff. I removed and drywalled over an existing door so I had to do some fancy footwork to deal with the baseboard that uses a slightly modified version of the window/door casing for the base cap. 

I've attached a couple of pictures of a cross section so we can be sure your question is answered.

Thanks for the effort.

Bill

Not sure the pics got uploaded (having trouble with my IP). I'll attach later if necessary.


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

I think it's by hand. The defect piece may have been left there on purpose maybe as a mark of some kind. It isn't so complex that I would shy away from it if a client asked me to do it. And if I think I can do it then someone else most likely had the same idea before me.


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## Improv (Aug 13, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I don't remember spirograph. Can you describe?
> 
> Bill


Spirograph was a drawing toy. The key component was a disc with a number of off-center holes a pen could be inserted into. The disc was then rotated along a surface (it was geared on the outside edge and the following edge so it wouldn't slip) which caused 'waves' to be produced. 

I see four unique waves in the casing (then flip to get the matching symmetry), all with the same amplitude and period which could be produced by rolling a disc with an off-center cutting tool along a straight edge. I could take some time to calculate the disc dimensions if you are looking to reproduce.


For your reference, a picture of a Spirograph toy.


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## Stefflus (Apr 13, 2011)

@bburn:
I meant the straight beads, and with them out of the way it allows for a wider range of tools. (grasping straws)
I would love to see an even closer closeup of the flaw, in the picture you posted it almost looks like one can make out what the cutter looked like, but really it's kinda silly of me to think I would see that better in a photo than you would with your eyes :blush:


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

*Heres the cross section*

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm still inclined to think it was a horizontal rotary head (like a molder) that moved back and forth laterally, perpendicular to the feed path, and now that someone mentioned it, maybe up and down too. Multiple passes with different tooling would be required under this scenerio.

I'm still waiting for someone to say, "oh yeah, I saw an old machine that is capable of doing that and it works like this..."

Cross section attached

Bill


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## boardmaker (Nov 3, 2009)

Bill,
Not to hijack your thread, but you said you have a corr. head in you molder. I have a Belsaw and a Woodmaster. All I have ever ran is a single knife in the planer head. Where did you get the corr. head? Did you have a machine shop make yours? And, who do you get your knives from? I have been playing a lot with the woodmaster (love that variable feed), and I'm entertaining the idea of starting a custom trim side business. 
Nothing like sticking a piece of wood in one side and seeing a piece of molding come out the other.

I've thought about going to the 8" corrugated 2 knife head for the Woodmaster. Just haven't done it.

BTW, I have no idea how they made that piece of trim, but if it's not hand made, I would think if would be from a molder that had a movable head that was driven by a feed wheel. I don't know.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

*Corrugated Head*

I've had this done twice. Sold the first belsaw but now have a PM/Belsaw I'm keeping. 

Farr's Custom Carbide in CA machined the head for me. They also make my knives (like any other tooling shop can do) using industry standard corrugations. If I remember correctly I paid about $450 for the millwork.

FARRS CUSTOM CARBIDE
1352 E BORCHARD AVENUE
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
714 972-1600 
800 684-0411
714 972-1625 - FAX
[email protected]

I've used a lot of different tool makers but despite I'm 1500 miles away in Indiana, they have good pricing and great service. I can almost always talk to the owner on the first try and he knows his business. 

Having three knives allows me to run at three times the CPI. I also don't have to worry about flying knives (have that happen once and you will never forget).

Let me know how it works out for you. If you have any other questions, email me at [email protected]


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

This thread really got inside my head and just wouldn't leave me alone,
I had ideas of spindle moulders with a nodding head and feeders synchronised to the spindle but it really just got to much.

I could be miles out but here`s how I see it, the wood it`s self started to give me Idea`s.When you look at the cross section of the moulded piece from the centre line out you can see that one side is a mirror image of the other.That tells me that the same knife was used to do both sides up to the straight bead first one pass then turn the piece over and then the second pass so far logical.

BTW if you look at the wavy bead you can see that it`s not actually round where it joins the wood it`s not a sharp shoulder it sweeps into the wood,that's good because it fits in with what I`m thinking.

Another BTW is the straight bead is lower than the field and that's deliberate but will become clear later.

When you look at the casing face on the two wavy beads do not run parallel to each other one is slightly ahead of the other why was that?

It was then that it come to me how it was done IMHO,The waves had to be done like that to produce (for want of a better description) the feathered detail in the middle of the field.

Remember I do not have the knives that produced the original moulding I`m just trying to understand the method that was used to produce it.

I made a pretty rustic mock up and this is how it went.
First I made a template with waves in it every wave had to be the same size.Then a false fence then with a dowel jig drilled holes and hammered the dowels in the fence screwed the jig to the bottom of the piece and did the first pass the template and the dowels made the piece rise and fall as it passed over the knives.

Took the template off and fastened it ,off set to the other side of the piece turned it over and passed it through again.

The last pic was from a off cut of a piece of construction pine not the best of woods to mill but I think it shows the contrast better.


Did it work thats not for me to judge.I know this is a long post and a lot of people wont read it but it would be interesting to know what every one thinks.

Two more pics to come.


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

One more pic.


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## Steve Clardy (Oct 20, 2007)

They probably used a trim press, a large cast iron wheel that had that pattern cast into the wheel.
Then the wood/trim piece was run through the machine, pressing the outer part down and leaving that pattern.
Pine was normally used as it was/is soft.
Woodmaster Tools used to sell a machine that was made for this. Several different wheels/patterns were available.
Did a search and cannot find a pic of one, but used to see them in their catalogs several years back.


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## Stefflus (Apr 13, 2011)

@Billy De:

I'm thinking smaller diameter cutter on an axis that also changes yaw. I've never seen one of those though.

If not I'm left with a host of really tiny bits as the only option I can see..

@Steve Clardy:

We know that the moulding in question is oak.
Even if it was softwood I would think it's too deep to be pressed.


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## jujuvernon (May 3, 2011)

There is an old wood lathe that has been out of spec for many years. I have only seen one. It did/does a lot of complicated milling and lathing that we can now only do via CNC work. 
It had a complicated system that enabled multiple cuts. I remember some time ago it was written up in a magazine, too. It did a lot of the complicated boxes that are now molded. 
It is beautiful and I wish you luck. My suggestion, get yourself a CNC wood router and duplicate it with that. It will save you tons of money on complicated tooling and you can reproduce it for other areas of your home. Wouldn't mind having some of that myself. Good luck:smile:


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## MrWoodworking (Apr 14, 2011)

Billy De said:


> One more pic.


Yes, rough example, but I think you're completely on the right track. Quite a puzzle, eh?


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

Stefflus you mention yaw in away your right,but the spindle moulder does not move, but the stock does up and down.

your comment made me realise that I had not posted pics with the 

stock fastened to the template riding on the dowels.So here you go.



Mr Woodworking thanks for the encouragement puzzling well yes and no.Like most clever things it`s really very simple,the key to it all is to not think in lines but in bands(the width of the knives).

I thought the best way to explain how I think it was all done was to make some drawings of the process.




Fist drawing shows the shape produced on the first pass with the stock fastened to the template.

The template is then removed and fastened to the other side of the stock, but not in the same position it`s moved along slightly this is impotent to understand.
So in affect what happens now is the stock is up side down and fed past the spindle moulder.

Really clever the second pass not only produces a profile but is used to remove part of the original profile,there by creating a completely different profile (IE the feather).

The next drawing shows the path of the top of the knife as it pass`s over the original profile.The shaded area is the part of the original profile that is removed.

Both knives not only produce a wave at the centre of the stock but also towards the outside edge of the stock.

This wave is impotent because it determines where the sunken bead and edge profile will be placed on the stock.


I shall have to make another post because I`v posted the max pics on this, one so back in a min.


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

Cross section A-A and B-B show the hight and depth of the wave produced at the bottom of the knife,the dotted line shows the sunken bead and the fluted section yet to be produced.

The next drawing shows the possible profiles of the knives used.


The last drawing shows the whole thing together.

I must admire the original guy who`s ingenuity allowed him to do this.

I can not say this is definitely the way it was done but if not I dont think it is a million miles away.

Just hope that some one stayed with me through this and could understand it all.

billy


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2011)

Gosh, you've really put in a lot of time and I it appears you have the answer. Honestly, I can't immediately give this the thought it deserves. When I get free I'll come back and comment on your work. 

I'm busy trying to decide on what kind of european mortise and tenoner to choose. I need rapid change over between about five different stock thicknesses (for 1 1/4" storm windows, 1 3/8 residential sash, 1 3/4" light commercial sash, 2 1/4" heavy commercial sash and a 1 5/8" custom application). Then in each thickness I need approximately a 1.5" and a 2.5" long tenon. I'd also like a decent production speed. I'm budgeting up to 15K for a used system. I'm planning to haunch off the profile after shaping the sash parts then miter them for a good fit. Any ideas?

Bill


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## jlord (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't know about the old day's, but if you want to recreate this molding then something like the CarveWrite. It will produce detailed molding like this & not break the bank.

http://www.carvewright.com/2010CWweb/cwproducts.htm


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## dining sets (Apr 24, 2011)

Nice one


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