# Best used (RAS) radial arm saw to buy?



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I am getting into radial arm saws, and I am finding about 30 of them for sale in my local city, for about $50 to $200. They are all Craftsman 10" saws, ranging from 1958 to 1990 era. There are 1 or 2 Dewalts for sale for 4 times the price. And I found an occasional Model 10 Rockwell/Delta.

Searching for information on used RAS, all I find are articles saying they are dangerous, and useless, don't hold "square" and should be thrown away, also all Craftsman saws are junk, and "only the Dewalt are good." Zero information about the rare Rockwell models. Zero information about which years of Craftsman are good.

I'd like to have some advice, on what to look for. My goal is to buy an older Craftsman, because they are so cheap, and look very lightly used.


----------



## ducbsa (Jul 6, 2014)

Maybe those guys selling the 4X priced Dewalts are posting that advice?


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

supermuble said:


> Searching for information on used RAS, all I find are articles saying they are dangerous, and useless, don't hold "square" and should be thrown away, also all Craftsman saws are junk, and only" the Dewalt are any good. Zero information about the rare Rockwell models. Zero information about which years of Craftsman are good.


Based on my experience, I agree with all the above statements. Yes I have my asbestos pants on LOL. Theres a reason why you can buy them so cheap b/c demand is so low & sliders have replaced them.

FWIW I’ve owned 3 over the course of 35 years, the first was a 70’s era C’man (an absolute POJ), an older model DW (AMF) which was the best, and a Rigid which was “acceptable” sold that one for 50 bucks. The only one that would hold square was the DeWalt I think the reason it had an indexed lever like a miter saw, the others has tension release levers (and too much plastic).

Everytime you change a setting for a bevel or miter cut, or accidentally bump the arm it’s a 15 minute realignment session, so they were basically cut off saws. And poor ones at that, too. Cutting a board that isn’t flat and binds is a bad experience.

If I were bound and determined to get one it would be an older model Rockwell or DeWalt. The problem with that is what condition the motors are in, as they are are not replaceable and not cost effective to rebuild. I junked the DW b/c of that.

Worth pondering why no major mfg’ers make them anymore. Safety is one reason. But they do have their place in a shop.


----------



## Biotec (Mar 14, 2021)

Good day. Welcome to The Forum



Good Luck on your hunt.

I own a 1970 series radial arm saw by Craftsman. Emerson Corporation made them for Sears for a number of years.

if you're going to only use it to cut 90-degree angles then they will work fine. look online you'll find a number articles on how to make aftermarket guards including this one.

almost any other tool will do what the radial arm saw will do and more safely.

a traditional cabinet, table saw with a sled will do lot of what the radial arm saw was used for.

watch the videos on how to tune one up.

you'll find there's a lot of adjustments to get it aligned up makes them very aggravating.

a good compound sliding saw and table saw will do so much more. just because it's inexpensive does not mean it's good idea.

you will need to make a new top for it make sure that when you saw motor out as far as it will go it's a handle is still over the table. There's still a lot of accessories for it out there readily for it.

the picture of the one you showed with a round knob on the front and lock are notoriously sloppy and don't always lock back in the same place twice. Also note but you're dealing with a saw that's 40 + it's going to need some initial maintenance. If you're not mechanically inclined to be able to take this saw apart and do the maintenance. getting all back to original again alignment skip buying the saw.

there are good cabinet table saws and sliding compound miter saws that will give you the same versatility and you will take up about the same out of floor space. much better use.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

OK, I own about 5 Craftsman RAS, maybe more if you count the one where I've used the carriage for a 2 axis panel saw?
Four of them are the 12" 220 volt models, except the panel saw and the vertical router, but that one uses it's own router motor.
The saw carriages that are supposed to fall off and jump over wood suffered from lack of maintenance and improper adjustment, and operator error.
The older ones had blade guards that didn't always come back to cover the blade or were not maintained properly.
As to resetting to "zero" after cutting at 45 degrees, there's an easy fix. Use a 45 degree jig and leave it at zero/90 degrees all the time. That's what I do.
The basic rule of carpentry/woodworking is:
When the workpiece is large, long or heavy, bring the saw to the work. Use a hand held circular saw or a RAS with an extended table like the lumber yards have.
When the workpiece is small, and possibly too small to cut without danger, bring it to the saw. If your fingers come within 4" of the blade, use a clamp or a jig to hold it.

Which one should you get?
The best older ones have a one piece column support. The newer, older ones have a split column support. I favor the one piece.
However, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, they are both strong.
Look for a 12" model, but they are rare and require 220 volt supply, which you may not have.
I have no experience with Deltas, or Rockwells, but they also require proper maintenance and adjustment.
There are so many moving parts, and locks and adjustments, that most owners just give up and don't keep them in good condition.
They also take up a lot of space in a small shop, so folks just want them "gone" and that's why they are so cheap these days.

I wouldn't have a wood shop without at least one with an extended table having 30" to 40" to the left of the blade. I see the RAS as a companion to the table saw and most large shops, or well equipped smaller shops will have both. There are many videos on You Tube extolling thier virtues and expaining how to adjust them and a few that are down right wrong about how to use them.
This is one of the best and there's a whole lot that's going on here that may not be apparent to a novice, but he's really good with the RAS!
Notice that he's an older gent, but still has all his fingers:















Notice there are two shop vacs on this RAS! The bottom orange one collects the dust from the green box behind the saw. The red one on the table gets the dust spun off from the blade. Notice there are no 45 degrees cuts in the 3/4" plywood extended table I made. This saw stays at 90 degrees all the time.

Notice how the 1 X 3 fence extends beyond the table for cutting long pieces to length using a stop clamped to the fence:









A good video on tables and fences for the RAS:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

supermuble said:


> I am getting into radial arm saws, and I am finding about 30 of them for sale in my local city, for about $50 to $200. They are all Craftsman 10" saws, ranging from 1958 to 1990 era. There are 1 or 2 Dewalts for sale for 4 times the price. And I found an occasional Model 10 Rockwell/Delta.
> 
> Searching for information on used RAS, all I find are articles saying they are dangerous, and useless, don't hold "square" and should be thrown away, also all Craftsman saws are junk, and only" the Dewalt are any good. Zero information about the rare Rockwell models. Zero information about which years of Craftsman are good.
> 
> I'd like to have some advice, on what to look for. My goal is to buy an older Craftsman, because they are so cheap, and look very lightly used.


Any saw is dangerous, you just have to get accustom to how it operates. A radial arm saw can be very handy to have in the shop but you have to be careful what you use it for. They are made to do too many different things and the lightweight construction of home model saws you can't expect them to cut accurately all the time. You can cause the saw to cut out of square by the direction you pull it out making the cut. Then if the wood is especially hard it will cause the saw to rise up a little causing an out of square cut. I've had the saw raise up and go over the top of a board without completely cutting it. It needs to cut at it's own pace. I found the radial arm saw more useful cutting narrow pieces of wood for cabinet faceframes and rough cutting wider boards to be finished cut on a table saw. 

When shopping for a saw be sure to pass on a Delta 12" saw if you come across one. Don't know the specific model but there was a defect on the carriage bearings which allowed the saw to come off the arm while running.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Supermuble have you looked at Delta turret saws?


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

Touchy subject for sure and like many I have some strong opinions. BUT they are my opinions, not researched and proven facts.

To start with, I wouldn't be without a RAS in my shop. I use my regularly.

As for Craftsman RAS, I had two and will not have another. No I don't think all Craftsman are bad but my two were horrible. All the typical issues, one wouldn't even cut a straight line. Seriously! 

The newer ones were not well made. I think there are still some low mileage models out there that work well, But I expect they would eventually wear out too. I think the reason is they were _value engineered _to a point they wore out quickly and were hard if not impossible to repair. I sincerely believe Sears is the main reason for the bad reputation the RAS has.

I am a big fan of DeWalt and the Delta's but you still have to be careful because with heavy use they will wear too. But they were much better quality than Craftsman and last longer.

I have a large DeWalt and it stays square. I can angle the arm and bring it back to square no problem. Being able to index the arm to odd angles is one of the best things about a RAS. 

All that to say I wouldn't consider a Craftsman, there is a reason they are cheap. Of course that is your choice but I would hold out to find a DeWalt of Delta. I would check it out carefully before buying too!


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

When I started woodworking back in the late 1970s, the radial arm saw was our primary woodworking tool. My roommate and I also shared a jointer, bandsaw, and drill press, along with handheld power tools, such as a drill driver, circular saw, belt sander, etc. We used the radial arm saw to build a bunch of furniture, a full kitchen, a room addition, and a large house. We used the radial arm saw for crosscuts, rip cuts, miters, bevels, dados, combinations of them, etc. We replaced that gouged out table a lot. We were young and dumb ... and lucky that nobody was seriously injured. We did a lot of things the wrong way. People today know a lot more about shop safety, so yeah, we were lucky.

(We know a lot more about sawdust safety, too. We used to let the sawdust accumulate behind the RAS until it could fill several trashcans. Back then, our dust collector relied on shovels. Masks? Filters? Huh?)

As @DrRobert pointed out, everything you read about the issues and dangers of radial arm saws are true. Today I have a SawStop table saw, an ordinary, non-sliding miter saw, and a small cordless circular saw. They work well for me. I would choose them over a radial arm saw, no question. Then again, I learned a few things over the last 40 years of on and off again woodworking. If I had unlimited shop space, budget, etc. I might think about a radial arm saw, reserved for 90 degree crosscuts only, but that would be a "nice to have", not a "must have." 

Best wishes and good luck!


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Kudzu said:


> Touchy subject for sure and like many I have some strong opinions. BUT they are my opinions, not researched and proven facts.
> 
> To start with, I wouldn't be without a RAS in my shop. I use my regularly.
> 
> ...


Does your have positive setting like the Delta turret?

Once set on the Delta. I can move between 45 and 90 with out resquaring
..


----------



## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

My experience is with larger, heavier saws; but the info may apply to smaller saws of the same brands. I have a 12" turret arm Delta saw and a 16" DeWalt.
The Delta saw is not last word accurate, just as several people have written. It does do a lot of clever tricks pretty well. If I was framing a complicated roof, this is what I would want to have. I'm not sure how those sliding miter saws would cut the shoulder in a bird's mouth joint in a rafter tail, or even if that's how roof framing is done anymore; but I really liked this saw when I did that sort of thing. Parts for it became impossible to get as some point. The nut in the elevating mechanism and the v groove carriage bearings went out on this, and the saw would be done for if I didn't have the ability to make replacements myself. I like the way the turret arm pivots, but that may just be personal preference.
DeWalt industrial saws cut like a dream. Even in mills where everyone and their brother uses them, they remain smooth and accurate for years. They are too big and heavy to fool with much. Mine and all the other ones I've used were set up as 90 degree cut off saws and left that way. I got this saw when I was building mostly stile and rail doors. It would cut the ends of a 2 1/4" thick, 12" wide hardwood rail perfectly straight and square. I've only run smaller DeWalt saws on a few occasions years ago, but I recall they had a similar solid feel to them.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm the second owner of the Delta. Regency cabinets used it for cutting door parts. They traded me in around 2000. I have never had a problem with this saw. It's been accurate since day one.The reason they got rid of it was they bought a tigerstop...

I use it for doors and drawer fronts. Make a lot of dentil molding...

I may be a bit bias with Delta since shop in high school had all Delta and first cabinet shop I worked for had all Delta. Color rubs off on ya I guess..


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> Supermuble have you looked at Delta turret saws?
> 
> Probably not because they won't fit in the $50 - $200 price range, more like $1000 - $1500?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I sold one for $150... I belive was the picture as it was on a pallet when I bought it..


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Why didn't you call me? I woulda driven down to MS and bought from you for that price!


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

They seem to be few to look at these days. Times have change and people are sitting on name brand..


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Having no real info about what the "worst" Craftsman saws are, I purchased a 1978 model 113-197750 Sears Craftsman 10" saw for $75. The owner was so delighted to see it leave his wood shop, he seemed genuinely enthusiastic and threw in an extra dado blade for free. He said he had never used it for ripping boards, because it "terrifies him."

The saw is barely used, and looks like it has been mostly in storage for the last 43 years. There were at least 5 of this exact model of saw available in my area for sale.

It is an 120v 11 amp motor, with 13.25" crosscut capacity. I've heard that "Sears" are of course the very worst saws. Although the entire saw is metal and cast iron and cast aluminum except for the motor housing which is plastic, and the various plastic beauty covers. I noticed it has steel rods that are screwed on, for the roller slide rails, so it could theoretically be fully rebuilt, unlike the various types of RAS which use slots in the cast iron housing for the bearing slider raceway.

It has "detents" that click in very solidly. When you twist the motor, and lock the bevel angle at 0 degrees, it locks in with absolutely zero play, even before you tighten the permanent locking lever. There is no slop in any of the parts, and when you rotate the entire arm back to zero, it locks in properly and extremely precise. (I find it hard to believe that "bumping" the saw or moving it around, would make it completely out of square.) I'm guessing the alignment problems people have are likely related to the fence moving? .

Some impressions I get, having never used a radial arm saw until today:

1.) Pushing the saw seems like a much better method of cutting, and a lot safer.
2.) The saw should have a lockable trigger operated power switch, as well as a main power switch.
3.) Having the saw configured for a "push" forward motion, would eliminate the issues that people encounter, with the saw "climbing" towards you.
4.) Pushing the cuts, would only require one single sliding motion (not 2 per cut).
5.) Pulling the blade towards you, is really fun and exciting. It seems incredibly dangerous and inappropriate. It's one of the funnest experiences I've ever had. This may be my new favorite tool. I know I'll be making tons of unnecessary cuts just for fun now on a RAS!
6.) What stands out to me is how precise and well built the saw is, as it weighs about 80 pounds, not including the stand.
7.) The lack of a bevel or worm gear drive system, makes it about 50% quieter than a comparable 7 1/4" Skillsaw.
8.) The motor seems to be turning very low RPM, and makes a much less intrusive "whine" than the older high powered circular saws.
9.) Compared to a high RPM worm drive screaming miter saw, there is something "soothing" about using the direct drive radial arm saw.
10.) The riving knife (wheel) and adjustable blade guard make the saw far safer for ripping boards than the early model saws.

Overall, for $75, it feels like a very high quality, very expensive saw.

I might decide to throw it away after a few more hours of testing. haha. But the initial impressions are better than I expected, with so much negativity surrounding the "quality" of these "Sears" saws. I will report back after more advanced testing.


----------



## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

While many of the Craftsman saws were crappy, you need to know that some of them (and Montgomery Wards) were made by DeWalt. My personal favorite are the Powershop models. I don't have a good picture of mine, but here is a typical model.

I have a 12-inch Craftsman branded model (black) that looks brand new. 










Those that say a radial arm saw cannot hold true don't know very much about how to set up an accurate tool. That's what makes the Powershop models so attractive--the stops and adjustments are very precise. The last time I calibrated mine, I had it set to within a few thousandths of a degree, and with machined blade flanges (store-bought blade stiffeners) I had zero runout.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

supermuble said:


> View attachment 432285
> View attachment 432285
> 
> Having no real info about what the "worst" Craftsman saws are, I purchased a 1978 model 113-197750 Sears Craftsman 10" saw for $75. The owner was so delighted to see it leave his wood shop, he seemed genuinely enthusiastic and threw in an extra dado blade for free. He said he had never used it for ripping boards, because it "terrifies him."
> ...


I think for a home model saw the Craftsman saws were some of the best. I bought a Craftsman saw very similar to that one in 1972 and it's been in constant use since then. The only repairs I've done on it was change the carriage bearings a couple times and replaced the switch. 

I wouldn't get in the habit of pushing the saw. Because of the rotation of the blade that has the potential of lifting the board off the table. You have to be especially careful to hold the board down when doing that. If you take your time and allow the saw to cut at it's own pace you won't have an issue with the saw climbing. 

The switch is lockable, there is a yellow tab in the center of the switch you remove to lock it. 

The saw turning at low RPM is a concern. It's suppose to be turning 3450 RPM which is normal for a radial arm saw. There should be a whine to it.


----------



## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I have had 5 RAS, the best was a 1957 220 5 hp 16 inch Dewalt, it is still running like new today. It is a pain to set up dead on, but once set it doesn't move. Just remembered, I had 6, I junked the turret saw, didn't like it, but I never gave it a chance either, so it may have been a good saw. The Dewalt could cut cabinet sides with one stroke.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Allow me to deal with these comments by entering mine just below:
1.) Pushing the saw seems like a much better method of cutting, and a lot safer.
NO! Don't push the saw into the work, it will lift the workpiece off the table making it difficult to control, unless you are a Gorilla.

2.) The saw should have a lockable trigger operated power switch, as well as a main power switch.
Most saws I used have a two position trigger either ON or OFF.

3.) Having the saw configured for a "push" forward motion, would eliminate the issues that people encounter, with the saw "climbing" towards you.
The saws are not designed to be used in that manner. The "self feeding" or climbing results from having a soft wrist, rather than a stiff wrist which will resist any tendency to climb. You must "resist" any tendency for the saw to self feed using the strength in your right arm. Saws that are not properly adjusted will have too much play in the carriage bearings and that will allow it to climb. Having the proper blade is CRITICAL also. *A RAS blade will have a negative rake /hook angle on all it's teeth. *This type of blade will not have any tendency to "self feed", again it's about the physics involved! An ordinary table saw blade will tend to "self feed" because of the angle of the teeth entering the work. When RAS first came out, the blades when an after thought and they just used the commonly available table saw blades at that time.
Times have changed and dedicated TAS blades are now available and are priced the same as table saw blades. GET ONE!

4.) Pushing the cuts, would only require one single sliding motion (not 2 per cut).
I don't understand your "2 cut" comment, it's just not true.
Read any RAS owner's manual or watch most You Tube videos that demonstrate how to safely use the RAS. They do NOT recommend pushing the saw carriage into the work NOR do I after 50 years of owning one. Forget that notion!

5.) Pulling the blade towards you, is really fun and exciting. It seems incredibly dangerous and inappropriate. It's one of the funnest experiences I've ever had. This may be my new favorite tool. I know I'll be making tons of unnecessary cuts just for fun now on a RAS!
Your circular saw is pushed into the work because the saw has a base plate to resist the upward force of the cutting action of the blade. This prevents the work from raising upwards.. The RAS has no such feature.

6.) What stands out to me is how precise and well built the saw is, as it weighs about 80 pounds, not including the stand.
Yes, the RAS is heavy and made from cast iron with very little plastic, which is only used as beauty covers.

7.) The lack of a bevel or worm gear drive system, makes it about 50% quieter than a comparable 7 1/4" Skillsaw.
The "Skil" or circular saws are all "universal AC/DC brush type motors" that are notoriously loud. The RAS all have "induction motors" which are very quiet. The type of blade has some effect on the noise level. The "worm drive" has little to do with the amount of noise coming from the circular saw.

8.) The motor seems to be turning very low RPM, and makes a much less intrusive "whine" than the older high powered circular saws.
The induction motors on RASs operate at 3450 RPMs, much slower than the AC/DC brush motors which can rev up to 5,000 or more RMPs.

9.) Compared to a high RPM worm drive screaming miter saw, there is something "soothing" about using the direct drive radial arm saw.
You are correct on this point.

10.) The riving knife (wheel) and adjustable blade guard make the saw far safer for ripping boards than the early model saws.
Ripping on a RAS, is a lesson in physics all to itself. I have ripped hundreds of lineal feet on a saw much like the one you purchased with great results.
No "riving knife or wheel" was used, because that's not what that gizmo is. The single most important safety device that is used is the blade cover/guard which must be rotated so it's front nose barely skims the top of the board as it enters the cut. I have never used the anti-kickback device on any of my RASs. Careful feeding is paramount when ripping.
This link from WWT explains my setup for ripping over 1,000 ft of 1" Cypress for some large barn doors:








"Evil Machine"


I'm building a pair of barn doors for a friend, barter system. It's a 100 year old barn that was 100 years old before it was moved to it's current location. So it is time for some new doors. The old ones look like Southern yellow pine, west side exposure sun and rain and snow here in Michigan...




www.woodworkingtalk.com






















The thread gets run "off the rails" by RAS haters and naysayers who don't have a clue about the physics involved when ripping.* Feed the* *work into the upward spinning blade*, but "feed direction" is seldom mentioned, even though it's critical! The work is held down by the roller I attached and the nose of the blade guard and was first fed under the roller.









DeWalt - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Before you go off redesigning a machine that's been in operation for 99 years, get better informed about it's use OR you will pay a serious price from an injury. You Tube can be your "mentor", but not all the videos give the safest advice and as a novice you may not be able to tell that? This is one that covers pretty much of the operation in a decent manner:





The 22" Dewalt RASs were used in the production during WW2:


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I need to look up the manufacturing date on the Delta.. I wish it was worth the time to add it on the miter saw side of the shop. It would open up some space considering the slider takes so much. 

Anybody remember which digits give the year..


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

You are supposed to pull the blade. Pushing is a bad idea. Putting wood behind a spinning blade is a recipe for disaster.

*FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO is replace the blade that is on there with a bade a *_*negative hook.* _That stop 95% of the blade trying to climb cut or lunge at you. 

With a standard blade it will try to pull itself through the wood as it is cutting and either stall out or lunge at you scarring the hell out you. That is another reason they have such bad reputations. Using the wrong blade.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Pushing backwards is more for sliders. I would not do it with a RAS.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Thank you for all the information. I can't state anything as a fact, because I have only owned a Radial Arm Saw for 24 hours at this point.

Regarding the little wheel on the back, I'm not sure why there is any disagreement on that. It is a "splitter" to keep the kerf open, as explained in the manual. It's not a guide. It's a riving knife/splitter. If you make a sloppy cut with a lightweight piece of material where the kerf begins to close down around the blade, it causes blade binding, burning, or a possible ejection of the wood. Riving knives and splitters do the same thing, although a riving knife is a more precise part that is usually very close to the blade.

On a table saw, if you don't have a splitter/riving knife, you are asking for a severe kickback. It's a recipe for disaster not using a riving knife. I know, because I recently had a severe kickback on a very dangerous cut I made, after I "let go" of the wood and the kerf locked onto the blade, because I didn't have any riving knife, on my older tablesaw. It was a straight, simple cut, but a riving knife would have stopped the severe full powered kickback.

You don't "NEED" a riving knife, but if you make a sloppy cut, it can stop a severe kickback. When cutting plywood, I've read stories of a man who was thrown across his shop, as he accidentally twisted the sheet while cutting it on a tablesaw, and the blade grabbed the kerf and threw him and the plywood backwards against the wall.

It's probably less important on a RAS. But I purchased a newer model saw, just to have the riving wheel, and the adjustable guard assembly. I don't think it's safe to rip boards without some means of preventing "lift" as you mentioned.

I will admit, the riving wheel is poorly constructed and is very loose and sloppy, so it might not actually help as intended. But at least, in principal, it is a good idea.

Is a negative tooth blade really necessary? It's interesting, because I've looked at probably 100 photos of RAS for sale and in forums, and almost none have a correct "negative tooth" blade on them. I'm beginning to think it's mostly a legal liability thing, where the factory wanted to mitigate the "blade climb" as much as possible, by putting an inferior, slowing cutting blade on the saw, to prevent it from kicking back, climbing, etc. 









woodnthings said:


> Allow me to deal with these comments by entering mine just below:
> 1.) Pushing the saw seems like a much better method of cutting, and a lot safer.
> NO! Don't push the saw into the work, it will lift the workpiece off the table making it difficult to control, unless you are a Gorilla.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

supermuble said:


> Is a negative tooth blade really necessary? It's interesting, because I've looked at probably 100 photos of RAS for sale and in forums, and almost none have a correct "negative tooth" blade on them. I'm beginning to think it's mostly a legal liability thing, where the factory wanted to mitigate the "blade climb" as much as possible, by putting an inferior, slowing cutting blade on the saw, to prevent it from kicking back, climbing, etc


If I ever used a RAS in my life it was in the 1970s in junior high, my answer is my general thought about safety features of equipment.

It's a statistical thing, like anti skid brakes on a car, 99.9% of the time plain brakes are fine, but that once in awhile, wow, the safety feature can make a big difference. When s*** happens with a circular blade it happens fast.

Sounds like you got a good deal on a low mileage RAS, for hobby use it can serve you well for a long time. If you send the $ on a good negative tooth blade your overall cost of the tool will still be low.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Quoting:
Is a negative tooth blade really necessary? It's interesting, because I've looked at probably 100 photos of RAS for sale and in forums, and almost none have a correct "negative tooth" blade on them. I'm beginning to think it's mostly a legal liability thing, where the factory wanted to mitigate the "blade climb" as much as possible, by putting an inferior, slowing cutting blade on the saw, to prevent it from kicking back, climbing, etc.

The negative hook blade will prevent "self feeding" an issue which you are very concerned about.
So Yes, get one! You should start out using a new blade regardless, so get the correct type and no additional cost.

If you carefully read my post above you'll see that I said... When radial arm saws first came out they used the table saw blade which was all there was. As more people bought these saw over the years, more consideration was given to the "self feeding" issue and some bright engineer, came to the conclusion that a negative hook blade would be less "aggressive" and therefore safer.

As the miter saws and dual bevel sliding miter saws increased in popularity, the sales of RAS declined to the point where today there is only one company in the USA who manufactures them, The Original Saw Company:








About Us & Our History


By building a superior line of saws, we will continue to manufacture quality, American-made products for the wood and metalworking industries.



originalsaw.com





Wiki gives a nice history from the invention in 1922 forward:








Radial arm saw - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Check Amazon for a negative hook blade by Oshlun, a good value for the price:








Amazon.com: Oshlun SBW-100060N 10-Inch 60 Tooth Negative Hook Finishing ATB Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor for Sliding Miter and Radial Arm Saws : Everything Else


Amazon.com: Oshlun SBW-100060N 10-Inch 60 Tooth Negative Hook Finishing ATB Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor for Sliding Miter and Radial Arm Saws : Everything Else



www.amazon.com


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

supermuble said:


> Thank you for all the information. I can't state anything as a fact, because I have only owned a Radial Arm Saw for 24 hours at this point.
> 
> Regarding the little wheel on the back, I'm not sure why there is any disagreement on that. It is a "splitter" to keep the kerf open, as explained in the manual. It's not a guide. It's a riving knife/splitter. If you make a sloppy cut with a lightweight piece of material where the kerf begins to close down around the blade, it causes blade binding, burning, or a possible ejection of the wood. Riving knives and splitters do the same thing, although a riving knife is a more precise part that is usually very close to the blade.
> 
> ...



A lot of people use and undrstand talbe saws. Many think they understand table saws. I used one 30 years without a splitter/riving knife.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> A lot of people use and undrstand talbe saws. Many think they understand table saws. I used one 30 years without a splitter/riving knife.


You may have cut a boat load of sheet goods where a splitter doesn't prevent a kerf from closing.
It will still prevent 98% of rotational type kickbacks, however.
Furniture lumber 2" and thicker may have a greater tendency to close on the blade when ripping.
All sorts of grain direction and twist issues arise when cutting hardwood lumber, it's very unpredictable unlike plywood or particle board.
Understanding how a table saw works, how the blade cuts, how the work must be flat against the table and straight against the fence are not always apparent to a new unexperienced user.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Plywood? We used a powermatic for 8/4 at the furniture company.

Remember the Sawstop and Altendorf are in my department . 

Once 8/4 tops are built they cut down at the powermatic slider, but lumber when needed is cut at the 12" powermatic


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> Plywood? We used a powermatic  for 8/4 at the furniture company.
> 
> Remember the Sawstop and Altendorf are in my department .
> 
> Once 8/4 tops are built they cut down at the powermatic slider, but lumber when needed is cut at the 12" powermatic


All your experiences are with commercial grade machines, so that kinda don't work for home shop DIY'rs with less HP and small budgets. 
My buddy the door maker, has a Holzher panel saw, cost $15,000 new.
A Striebig on Ebay for $26,000:


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

I know that this will start a flame war. . . . .

Unless you have a SPECIFIC need for a Radial Arm Saw, the answer is "NONE". The advice here is to buy a table saw. 

Yes I have my Nomex underwear on.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Studying the radial arm saw, I am convinced that it is inherently more safe than an old style table saw. My old style table saw has no riving knife, no splitter, no anti-kickback pawls, no clear plastic blade guard, and no brake on the motor, and a crappy fence that is always about 1/32 or more out of square when you tighten it down, and my tablesaw blade also tilts the wrong way (towards the right), which makes right handed bevel cuts very clumsy, since you need to put the fence on the left side of the blade to do bevel cuts safely.

By comparison, the 1978 (much older) radial arm saw I bought has a splitter, anti-kickback pawls, and the fence alignment won't change 1/16" out of alignment between cuts. The real inherent danger on the radial arm saw is that I've never used one, and don't have a lifetime of coordination and muscle memory on moving my hand and body around the machine, and knowing when to use a push stick, or how to hold the wood properly, etc. It's also really scary seeing the blade so close to your body, which is mostly a mental fear, because it's mostly completely enclosed under the guard.

One possible issue with the radial arm saw is that the motor gets in the way of pushing the material, and it requires a little more planning to make the cut.

Overall, I am not seeing how a modern radial arm saw with the anti-kickback pawls and splitter wheel, is dangerous for ripping boards, as compared to a standard shop tablesaw with the guards and splitter removed and a crappy fence. So then, it seems like the newer RAS saws built after the mid 1970's are much safer for ripping boards, but not much safer for crosscuts.

What I found out is that they finally made the RAS really safe in 1994, by putting a proper blade guard on, as well as a proper real riving knife. The riving knife improves on the very flimsy and loose riving wheel, and the guard has zero clearance gap under it, and will not allow anything to get under it. See photos. Video of a guy using the 1996 saw: 




I also found out that my 1978 Craftsman appears identical, internally, to the 1996 Craftsman in the video. If this is true, than it should help for parts availability for motors and bearings, and other hard parts.

1996 saw on left and close up photo of its factory riving knife, anti-kickback pawls, and very effective blade guard. My 1978 saw shown too, as a comparison.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Sorry, But to 'Woodnthings' dismay, after owning a RAS for 30 + years, an RAS is little more than an "Evil Machine".

With all due respect to woodnthings.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

It's kinda like when you marry someone elses' exwife. What didn't work for the first husband can work great for the next. Same woman, different situation.
What didn't work for you and your RAS, may work very well for someone else.
Maybe yours was in fact "evil" I donno? I have never considered inanimate objects as having a personality, maybe ?
I'm not saying that there weren't issues with some of them and maybe your was one of those, BUT you can't condemn them all based on just your experience.
Oh, you can if you want to, but that just doesn't make you look very smart, no offense Rich.
I hope you sold it or got the $100 cash for the saw motor.


----------



## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

supermuble said:


> Studying the radial arm saw, I am convinced that it is inherently more safe than an old style table saw. My old style table saw has no riving knife, no splitter, no anti-kickback pawls, no clear plastic blade guard, and no brake on the motor, and a crappy fence that is always about 1/32 or more out of square when you tighten it down, and my tablesaw blade also tilts the wrong way (towards the right), which makes right handed bevel cuts very clumsy, since you need to put the fence on the left side of the blade to do bevel cuts safely.


That isn't a comparison of how good a RAS is, but of how bad that particular TS is.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> All your experiences are with commercial grade machines, so that kinda don't work for home shop DIY'rs with less HP and small budgets.
> My buddy the door maker, has a Holzher panel saw, cost $15,000 new.
> A Striebig on Ebay for $26,000:
> View attachment 432316


I used a holszer at the solid surface company. Also remember we made entry doors at Commercial Millwork in Alabama.. your buddy males doors, I made doors back in the easy 80's... We used a chain mortiser..


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Can anyone name a mfg'er who makes homeowner type radial arms anymore? Why is that?

The day I GAVE my last one away it was GOOD RIDDENS!

Fire away, I've got Rick's asbestos pants on.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I admire your intrepidness with your new-to-you radial arm saw, but I wish you would apply more energy to studying and internalizing radial arm saw safety. There are a lot of experienced voices above, and many of them are trying to caution you about radial arm saw safety. Listen to them and their many years of radial arm saw use. Some of your recent statements in the various threads on WoodworkingTalk were concerning to me, but it is comforting that you are also following along with the others.

A radial arm saw can be a versatile woodworking tool and it will do the things that your old table saw can do. Both are dangerous, but the dangers of a radial arm saw are not familiar to many woodworkers. Those people who are telling you to "say no" to a radial arm saw are people who know and have long years of experience with radial arm saws. 

I think you are past the point where "say no to radial arm saws" will do any good, so let's make sure you start out safe and stay safe with it. Surprises with a radial arm saw are never good and never fun. Be careful. Study hard first and make sure you internalize the lessons before you ever plug it in. Listen to the voices of experience here. They learned some lessons the hard way, and want to keep you from doing the same.

... and yes, I agree with the others - get a negative hook blade for it. Get experience with the proper, correct negative hook blade first before you think about bending the rules.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Just keeping mine around for dentil mold is worth it for me. Dados are in the RAS now..


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

OK. 

° Normal cross cut operations are usually the safest. What you really want is the off fall but that is under the motor. A left handed tool that must be used right handed.

° Adjusting the arm for angular cuts is just not precise nor repeatable. I believe that the issue is just the nature of the beast. 

° Ripping is fine as long as you enjoy eating sawdust. The blade cuts from the bottom of the stock up. That with the following means kick back city. 

° The Craftsman model from the early 1970s used an aluminum block as the yoke pivot mechanism. Nothing really wrong except that the alignment and locking screws were threaded into the aluminum. No torque down specifications in the user manual. Human nature, "I don't want this move ever. I'll snug it down really good." after awhile, the threads pull out of the aluminum. The yoke then has a tendency turn or twist during a rip cut. The blade then tries to climb on top of the wood and hello kick back. 

If Emerson Electric had made a replacement adjustment yoke with either steel threaded inserts or used steel for that part, the saw would still be made today. From what I have observed, it was the best radial arm saw then and now. What didn't help was Sears kept cheapening the saw. I paid $179 for the saw new. That would be about $1080 today. If I was just starting to build a woodshop today, that RAS with the steel yoke adjustment block would be a prime choice. 

I could align the yoke and cross cuts were a dream. Then after a rip cut the saw was out of alignment. Cross cuts looked like they were made by a hand held chain saw. My father in law was a tool and die maker. Unfortunately he had retired and passed on by the time I discovered the root cause of the problems. He could have made a replacement part out of steel. That one part made from steel would have turned a liability into what would be the best RAS ever.

With the aluminum part it is an evil machine.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I have never had any cam bolts strip out from any of my 5 RAS carriage plates. Sounds like a Gorilla was asked to snug the cam bolts .... just sayin'
When I was making my Craftsman carriage panel saw, I ordered several aluminum carriage plates to have on hand, still have them in a box someplace as well as extra "V" groove cam bearings. You are the only source I seen in 50 years that has complained about stripping out the cam bolts.



























This entire panel saw was made without a single welded joint. The clamps on the top rails were used to secure the chain I used to lift it up at an angle with a come along. They are not part of the saw.

For anyone who has doubts about the operation of the Craftsman radial arm saw, I highly recommend they watch this older gent and his creative approach:


----------



## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

supermuble said:


> I am getting into radial arm saws, and I am finding about 30 of them for sale in my local city, for about $50 to $200. They are all Craftsman 10" saws, ranging from 1958 to 1990 era. There are 1 or 2 Dewalts for sale for 4 times the price. And I found an occasional Model 10 Rockwell/Delta.
> 
> Searching for information on used RAS, all I find are articles saying they are dangerous, and useless, don't hold "square" and should be thrown away, also all Craftsman saws are junk, and "only the Dewalt are good." Zero information about the rare Rockwell models. Zero information about which years of Craftsman are good.
> 
> I'd like to have some advice, on what to look for. My goal is to buy an older Craftsman, because they are so cheap, and look very lightly used.


I still have a RAS, but it is set up dedicated to a perfect 90 deg. For everything else I us a slider. I had a Craftsman years ago and found it useless. The beam was unstable and would wander when cutting. I can't count the times I did a setup on it. It would even wander during a cut, depending on what I was cutting. I sold it and found a 1943 Dewalt which weighs a ton. I had to have the motor rewound as it was not running, but it has been active in my shop for around 25-30 years now. It is balls on accurate. Like I said, I leave it set up for 90's and don't mess with it.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The issue of crappy Craftsman RAS seems to be a "hit or miss" affair. Some owners feel "cursed" while others use them daily with no issues. I suspect, and I mean no offense by this, that there was either a mechanical failure or a error in the setup process. If the settings don't hold their position it seems reasonable to look for why.



















Rich, aka No Thank You, here, has mentioned the cam bolts stripping after applying too much torque on them in the aluminum carriage. That would certainly be a huge issue when trying to align it and minimize the play on the rails. I doubt that the hardened steel rails would get worn in normal use to cause any excess play. There are positive stops on the column arm for 90 and 45 degrees, but I don't think those would fail or it would be very obvious when they did.










I wish the owners of the "crappy" ones could describe in detail what the issues and or fixes were so we could all benefit.
My 12" Craftsman RAS has been set at a dedicated 90 degree crosscut and as a result, I haven't swung the arm to 45 degrees in quite a few years to see how it would lock up. I should try it and see what happens? I also have a 10" Craftsman in the shop which I used to dado library ladder stair threads in the side rails a few years back but those were at a 17 degree angle, right and left. So no way of telling about the 45 degree stops from that project.
I eliminated the 3 piece factory supplied table moons ago in favor of a extended one pice 3/4" plywood table with a screwed down 1 X 3" fence aligned to the blade with a framing square:


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

The first picture shows the aluminum plate but also shows a later arm that is sort of rounded. I'm not sure when they started using that style arm but it was after the early 1970s. The early 1970s arm was built like a brick out house. 

And yeah, I admit to being the gorilla that over tightened. But as I said you don't want it to move. . . .


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

You can easily test for play in the sliding carriage by placing a block on the table and then using a long scrap to pry up under the motor cover to see if there is any movement. Any movement or play in the bearings can be addressed by replacing them OR rotating the cam bolts ever so slightly and then snug them up. Be careful not to overtighten them as you may strip them out as some have done. There is no serious level forces on them, as they are just axles for the bearings and the load is typically just the weight of the motor carriage, so no need for excessive torque.









You notice that I have removed all the decorative arm and bearing covers for easier access to the bearings. They serve no real function in my opinion, so I removed them.


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

WNT there is no error in setup, they are not precision machines. The weak point is the column/arm attachment. Indexed locking/cast iron arm like my old DW had is best. The ones I)ve owned with tension lever type mechanisms are terrible. They never index back to 90 so as you mentioned, they are crosscut saw - until you bump the arm…..I rarely ever used them for miters or bevels b/c that involved a 10 minute realignment session.

This is why I gave mine away & I discourage people buying them. Sliding miter saws are infinitely more accurate & have replaced them. There are no hobby/homeowner radial arm saws made anymore, they are all commercial type machines costing thousands of $’s.

Bottom line if you have a table saw and a miter saw, with a sled and good miter gauge, you've got the usual operations covered, and, covered more accurately.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

DrRobert said:


> *WNT there is no error in setup, they are not precision machines. The weak point is the column/arm attachment. * .......


Your's may not have been, and that's why you said that.

I am skeptical of a such a generalized statement even when made by a good friend, so I need to check it out on occasion.
I went to every RAS in my possession (8) and checked the rigidity of the arm to column lock up at both 90 degrees and at 45 degrees.
I have four 12" Craftsman RASs (only one of which is used in the woodshop for crosscutting) and four 10" saws (those are in various stages of disassembly except two.
All my arms lock up tightly to the column and when I apply lateral force to them there is no play at all.
There is a photo of one of the 10" saws with the arm cover removed so I could see how the stops work.
I didn't bother to look at the 12" ones because they were so rigid.
I think (my opinion) the weak point is the sliding carriage because it's always moved on the rails when ever a crosscut is made, and because the "V" groove bearings can not be setup correctly or wear slightly, but's that's a remote possibility (my opinion).
The 10" saws are first in the order of downloading.
The last photo is a 10" RAS which I converted to a radial arm router by adding a router inside the original carriage. Some machining was definitely involved! That carriage and all of them are completely interchangeable between all the various the saws, a rarely known feature.
I have a second carriage (stolen from another saw possibly) that has a stacked dado setup on it and all I need to do it remove the arm stop bolt and slide that in place. That's one reason I ended up with so many, the other reason is that folks were practically giving them away ...
Dr. Roberts method of disposal! I found several of the 12" on Craig's list for cheap so I got them. My first 10" was $40.00 on the "For Sale" board at work, steal of a deal.
You folks can come to your own conclusions, but in my experience, I haven't found issues with the "precision" of the older RASs.


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> Bottom line if you have a table saw and a miter saw, with a sled and good miter gauge, you've got the usual operations covered, and, covered more accurately.


If you're just starting out and you only have $150 there is no way to get a TS, a miter saw and a good miter gauge. But you can get a RAS!

One RAS at $150 will cross cut, rip, bevel, dado, mold and sand. 

That's how I learned, I bought my 12" 220V RAS for $50 at the end of a driveway at a garage sale. No table, no guards, no blade, wrenchs or manual. It was all I owned and all I could afford. By the time I had $$ for a table saw I had already tuned up the RAS and gotten really good with it. Later I bought a cross cut saw but after a few years I found it redundant to the RAS so I sold it. I'm about to do the molding and shaping to make cabinet doors on my RAS, you can't do that with a table saw or a chop saw.

I'm actively buying up the Sears RASs I find in my area on Craigslist. I plan to take one and set it up as a permanent molder/shaper.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

JayArr said:


> If you're just starting out and you only have $150 there is no way to get a TS, a miter saw and a good miter gauge. But you can get a RAS!
> 
> One RAS at $150 will cross cut, rip, bevel, dado, mold and sand.
> 
> ...


Great points made above!
There are two separate issues that are posted in this thread:
1. Inaccurate cuts because of faulty design or failed components, or setup.
2. Safety issues because of blade guards not covering the exposed blade, hand and finger placement in the cutting path, ripping issues from improper feeding or failure to adjust the blade guard to keep the workpiece flat on the table.

There are many variations of the old Craftsman saws, so one person's complaint or issue, may not apply to the entire "species" of them.
I did find this explanation of the column lock issue:


Sears Radial Arm Saw Problem



Safety procedures apply to all the variations, so that's an owner's responsibility. Learn the limitations of the machine and respect it at all times. Clamp the short pieces when crosscutting, use a stop block for multiples,  push the ripping stock through using a push scrap until it clears the blade and exits safely out the rear. Too many to list here.

This You Tube does explain the feed direction and blade rotation physics and mentions a negative hook blade at 3:30:





They are a very versatile machine and in the right hands and with the right cutter heads, can make cuts that no other machine can.
I do not claim to be an expert either on their design or all the safety issues, but I do have considerable "life experience" using them,
so take my advice with a grain of salt or not at all if you feel intimidated or afraid.
I owned a 3 HP shaper briefly and soon realized it was way more dangerous than I was prepared for. I sold it in "NIB" condition.
The RAS is not a machine that should be taken lightly and there are many You Tube videos showing it's use, some are better than others as with all You Tubes.
Because the blade cuts from above the work, the physics of this are opposite from those on the table saw which cut from below the table surface, so there are different rules to follow.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

,I think if you take the time to set one up reguardless of brand and take care when using it it will work just fine..


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

When I bought my RAS I thought that it was "The Bee's Knees". I went through the exercise of stetting it up and building a stand for it out of 2x4. All the while kneeling. Then one of my customers at the local electric utility company told me I was crazy to get an RAS. Then he holds up his left hand showing that four fingers were shortened to the middle knuckle. He explained that he did that when making the scoring cut in the particle board for the table top.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

There dangerous. Most power tools are. Just have to be careful.

Remember....


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> He explained that he did that when making the scoring cut in the particle board for the table top.


Well, we know the saw is on a rail and we know it only cuts down one line and it cuts down the same line every time so your customer must have had his hand in line with the blade.

That's NOT the saws fault!

That's like saying I jogged in front of a truck and it hit me - man trucks are dangerous. No - inattention to your environment is dangerous!

I'll bet he had the blade down touching the particle board when he turned the saw on! The blade would immediately start running forward on the table and his hand was in the way. Maybe he thought he could place the blade into the table and turn it on and it would just start cutting a groove and wait for him to pull it forward - if this was his thought he was wrong.

That's NOT the saws fault and it doesn't make the saw dangerous. That's operator error!

Nowhere in my manual does it say to make a scoring cut on the table, nowhere. The scoring cut is made with the first cuts and doesn't need to be "pre-cut"


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

NoThankyou said:


> When I bought my RAS I thought that it was "The Bee's Knees". I went through the exercise of stetting it up and building a stand for it out of 2x4. All the while kneeling. Then one of my customers at the local electric utility company told me I was crazy to get an RAS. Then he holds up his left hand showing that four fingers were shortened to the middle knuckle. He explained that he did that when making the scoring cut in the particle board for the table top.


That only says "what" he did, not "how" he did it. He may not remember OR he may not be willing to admit to a dumb mistake, I donno?
If the fellow's hand was in the blade's cutting path, then the result was to be expected, scoring cut or what ever he claims he was doing. Loaded guns don't go off on their own, it takes someone to pull the trigger (revolvers). As with most dangerous things, tools, machines, etc, you can break one of the safety rules and get away with it, typically. But, you can't break several rules and not have a bad result.
The scoring kerf require you to lift the saw above the table top, turn it on and slowly slower the blade about 1/8" into the table and then pull the carriage toward you. Perfectly safe when done in that order. Did he, who knows? but I doubt it.


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Speaking of Norm!

... and there is no more important rule than wearing safety glasses.

Norm Abrams.


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

I have a buddy that lost part of a finger in a router.
_*Now do we all sell our routers and post how dangerous they are??*_


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Kudzu said:


> I have a buddy that lost part of a finger in a router.
> _*Now do we all sell our routers and post how dangerous they are??*_


Did the router chase his hand or did he chase the router?

I had a guy at the commecial shop usd a wrags to clean the router table while it was running. Pulled the wrags and his hand in. Clipped his finger...

Most don't understand power tool injury till its too late. On one forum a guy got his hand caught in a planer while it was running..


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Some people just don't have the capacity to admit they made a mistake so they blame the tool. 

If you look at the intelligence spectrum between IQs 100 and 150 (ignoring the very low and the very high) you'll find that the lower the intelligence of a person the more sensitive they are to their own mistakes. Higher IQ people _tend_ to have a good general self worth and don't mind admitting mistakes they make. They are aware that one mistake isn't an indication they are less worthy. The lower you go on the IQ scale the more afraid people _tend to be_ to admit their mistakes for fear of being judged stupid. There is a direct correlation between what one thinks of himself and admission of an error. There are lots of other variables to this but the main one is IQ.

This is how you get: The McDonalds coffee was too hot, the chisel was dull, the axe handle was slippery, the RAS was dangerous.


----------



## _Ogre (Feb 1, 2013)

glad to see that i'm not the only guy here who uses RAS for 90° cuts only 😂


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

_Ogre said:


> glad to see that i'm not the only guy here who uses RAS for 90° cuts only 😂


That's what I do also. But, it's not because I have a radial arm saw that's known to be off at 45 degrees. 

Honestly, I've never checked mine. It's just easier for me because that's my crosscut method I use most often except when I use the extended fence on the miter gauge on the tablesaw. I don't make many 45 degree miters, so no need to change the setting on the RAS.
If I did make lot's of 45 degree miters, I would verify what my saw arm stops at and fix it if it didn't. The "fix" wouldn't be on the arm itself, but more likely on the fence setting. I don't think the 45 degree stops are adjustable on the RAS I own?

My last 45 degree moters were on this large kitchen cabinet with leaded glass doors:


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Do you have a photo of the aluminum part that is the weak point? I am not familiar enough to know what you are talking about. Just by the feeling of the saw, it appears that my 1978 saw hasn't really been tinkered with at all, and it seems to have absolutely no visible "play" in the cutting head (yolk?). When you twist it into the ripping position it locks solidly without the slightest hint of slop. Do you think making steel helicoil threaded inserts would fix the aluminum problem?



NoThankyou said:


> OK.
> 
> ° Normal cross cut operations are usually the safest. What you really want is the off fall but that is under the motor. A left handed tool that must be used right handed.
> 
> ...


----------



## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

JayArr said:


> Well, we know the saw is on a rail and we know it only cuts down one line and it cuts down the same line every time so your customer must have had his hand in line with the blade.
> 
> That's NOT the saws fault!
> 
> ...


I almost took off a few fingers with a RAS one time. It was 100% my fault. I was fatigued, not paying attention, and had been making repetitive cuts for over an hour. Any machine can be dangerous. I have a 5hp spindle shaper that is a beast. Unless I am doing stick cuts on a sled or a few other operations I always use a 4 tire power feed. But the biggest safety precaution I have learned to take is to be awake, aware, and not distracted when on a machine.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Come on mates. I never said the utility employee was a rocket scientist. Although the manager of the local Sears store was much smarter. When the employee brought the saw back to Sears, blood all over the table, the manager gave him purchase price back, money to cover the ER co-pay and a couple of hundred dollars in Sears gift cards.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've always been funny about RAS usage. Mine climbed on me once and I changed blades. Rarely use it for anything other than dafos...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

B Coll said:


> I almost took off a few fingers with a RAS one time. It was 100% my fault. I was fatigued, not paying attention, *and had been making repetitive cuts for over an hour*. Any machine can be dangerous. I have a 5hp spindle shaper that is a beast. Unless I am doing stick cuts on a sled or a few other operations I always use a 4 tire power feed. But the biggest safety precaution I have learned to take is to be awake, aware, and not distracted when on a machine.


Exactly!
My buddy, the custom door maker has a double spindle shaper, 10 HP each and they can spin 8" diameter cutters. He lost a thumb tip when working tired, late at night and in a rush to finish a curved door molding/casing. I've only seen it run one time, but I was looking for the exit and a quick way to get out of the shop. Way scary!
This guy has been doing this for 35 to 40 years, so he's very experienced. It was just a split second of not paying full attention.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The owner of Withrow Cabinets out here lost his r0thinmb running raised panels on a open head shaper. He was running the crown on a panel that was cupped. He said he new it was cupped but tried to for pcecot down and it kicked. 

This is a tough business to be in. When your on this equipment 8 hours a day the risks are greater...


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

As I was getting into serious woodworking after I was retired, I thought that I wanted a shaper. Then I was at school and they allowed a student to use the shaper. Three instructors standing there watching the student feed into the feeder. The cutters were larger in diameter than a coffee can. I am watching in awe of the machine. It was right then and there that I realized I don't have the courage to run a shaper.

Please don't try to reassure me, I DON'T HAVE THE COURAGE.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Could you tell us anymore about the "climb" you experienced on your RAS, so we can prevent it? Was the blade set really low into the wood table, or was the blade accidentally set too high? I suspect if the blade is set high, it would expose more of the outside edge of the blade to the cutting material, causing more tendency to climb towards you? This happens on a tablesaw, if you set the blade really low, it makes a kickback more likely (but it does protect your fingers). 

I know this isn't talked about. But all the new "cheap" budget blades actually appear to have non-cutting "anti-kickback rakers" on them. If you look at a Diablo 40T thin kerf high-ATB or the 24T think kerf ATB blades, they both have fairly large non-cutting raker teeth. I am calling them rakers, because on a chainsaw, the rakers are the non-cutting teeth in between teeth. These non-cutting rakers provide a cutting feed rate "limit" to prevent the blade from digging into the wood too aggressively. Without the rakers, the blade will function the exact same way, but will require very precise control. 

On a chainsaw, the main thing that determines the cutting speed is the height of the raker. Filing the raker down just a little bit, has a dramatic effect, increasing the "grabbiness" and tendency of the chain to cut beyond the motor's power capability.

I wonder if radial arm saws should only be using blades that have an "anti-kickback" design, with non-cutting raker guide teeth on them? It is really odd that nobody talks about this.

I find it really suspicious how little information there is about saw blades in general. People recommend buying the expensive blades. But when you look at a really nice blade, like the Ridge Carbide or Forrest blades, none of them have any "anti-kickback" raker teeth.










































Rebelwork said:


> I've always been funny about RAS usage. Mine climbed on me once and I changed blades. Rarely use it for anything other than dafos...


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I did not have a negative hook on the RAS. Tried to control it on 8/4 and instead controlled me.

Negative hook blade was being sharpened at the time

3/4 not much of a problem, 8/4 saw gets pretty hungry...


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

supermuble said:


> Could you tell us anymore about the "climb" you experienced on your RAS, so we can prevent it?


This is so simple, you put a blade with a _Negative Rake" _on the saw and it eliminates 99% of the the tendency to climb. All the blades you show are for the table saw and that is a different animal.

Climbing is just the term used for the blade wanting to pull itself into the wood. The blade on a RAS is turning in the opposite direction of a table saw. That is why the table saw will kick wood back at you when it grabs the wood.

The RAS spinning the other direction can't move the wood so when it bites to much it tries to lunge forward, 'climbing' over the wood. It happens fast and if you have your hands in the right place, there isn't much danger but it is very scary.

I hear people talking about keeping a stiff arm and other ways to stop it but these people are usually using the wrong blade and then blame the saw. Use the right blade is it won't happen.

Negative rake blades are not as easy to find anymore but I have seen them for Miter Saws. Picked up a 12" at Lowes a few years ago to my surprise. But you can find them online. They make a HUGE difference.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It can still climb with a negative hook....

I keep a stiff arm any time I use a slider, RAS, router, etc...When you use tools as much as me, your always aware of their potential for a tool to kick your acc at any moment

We are not always cutting 3/4 wood or plywood.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

The technical term for those tabs that stick up behind the carbide teeth on circular saw blades is "depth limiting shoulders". (I like to call them "anti-kickback tails", but that's my term.)

I have a SawStop table saw. SawStop recommends that you avoid using blades with depth limiting shoulders because they interfere and slow down SawStop's proprietary safety brake mechanism. (This recommendation applies only to SawStop table saws, not any other brands.) 

I had a Freud SD208 dado stack from a previous table saw. The SD208 dado stack has the depth limiting shoulders. About three years ago, Freud replaced the SD208 with the current SD208S dado stack. (I had a broken tooth on the SD208 set, and Freud replaced the entire set with an SD208S version.) It is the same, except that it does not include the depth limiting shoulders. I suspect that Freud did not want to lose dado stack sales to SawStop owners.

In my opinion, there is no single explanation for why some blades have depth limiting shoulders and others do not.

You see depth limiting shoulders on blades with fewer teeth and larger gullets, like rip blades and dado/box joint type blades, but the crosscut blades with many teeth and small gullets rarely have depth limiting shoulders. 

Perhaps some manufacturers (e.g., Ridge Carbide and Forrest) do not want to lose sales to SawStop owners? 

NEGATIVE HOOK ANGLE BLADES FOR RADIAL ARM SAWS:
As someone who used a radial arm saw in the past, I agree with the others: Buy negative hook angle blades for your radial arm saw. Buying cheap blades with depth limiting shoulders as a way to avoid negative hook angle blades is a false economy. One injury would erase any savings. Most people who take safety shortcuts get away with it for a long time and recommend it to others ... until something happens.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Kudzu said:


> This is so simple, you put a blade with a _Negative Rake" _on the saw and it eliminates 99% of the the tendency to climb. All the blades you show are for the table saw and that is a different animal.
> 
> Climbing is just the term used for the blade wanting to pull itself into the wood. The blade on a RAS is turning in the opposite direction of a table saw. That is why the table saw will kick wood back at you when it grabs the wood.
> 
> ...


Agreed!
But I doubt the RAS blade is spinning in the opposite direction!
It's just cutting from the top down, unlike the table saw whose blade is spinning from below the table surface. The teeth are spinning such that when the wood is engaged or enters, they cut. If the blade spun in the opposite direction, it wouldn't be cutting.
The BIG issue with a RAS, is when ripping and *feeding the work with the blades' rotation, or from the wrong end, * which will make a unguided missle out of it.
That's a climb cut, without the climb.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Are these Black and Decker 1960's RAS saws any good?

I am looking to buy one more radial arm saw. I would like to build a bench with 2 different radial arm saws, one setup as a specialty tool, an the other one for basic crosscuts. I am wondering if these really ugly 1960's Black and Decker radial arm saws are as good as the early 1940's-1950's "rounded" Dewalts? I see many of these newer, very ugly Black and Decker-Dewalt saws for $50 to $150 on Craigslist. I haven't bought one yet because of how ugly they are. But they do look really well made. Are these any good?


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Rebelwork said:


> It can still climb with a negative hook....


Yes!



> I keep a stiff arm any time I use a slider, RAS, router, etc...When you use tools as much as me, your always aware of their potential for a tool to kick your acc at any moment


Yes!

I used to tighten the slide lock just a tad to increase the pull force needed. Seemed to help.


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Here is what I use on my RAS.






LU91R012 | Saw Blades | Crosscutting | Sliding Compound Saw - Freud Tools


Learn all about #LU91R012. Best in the world circular saw blades. This thin kerf industrial blade provides a superior finish cut with sliding compound miter saws. The 5° negative hook angle helps prevent the blade from being too aggressive and pushes the work piece down and towards the fence...




www.freudtools.com





Notice the -5 degree hook angle. This is great for cross cuts but too fine for ripping.

If anyone knows where I can buy a negative hook ripping blade please post it up.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

JayArr said:


> Here is what I use on my RAS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Manufacturers can make a custom blade to your specifications. Try calling your favorite US manufacturer (say, Forrest, Ridge Carbide, Industrial Blade, etc.) and ask if they can make a custom blade for you. The price may be high. If you don't have success with that, try one of the larger blade sharpening services - many of them make custom tools and blades.


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Something in the back of my mind told me something was wrong with this idea that the Sears yoke was threaded aluminum. I was sure that when I adjusted the eccentric bolts on the bearings of my RAS I used two wrenches. And I was right.



> ° The Craftsman model from the early 1970s used an aluminum block as the yoke pivot mechanism. Nothing really wrong except that the alignment and locking screws were threaded into the aluminum. No torque down specifications in the user manual. Human nature, "I don't want this move ever. I'll snug it down really good." after awhile, the threads pull out of the aluminum. The yoke then has a tendency turn or twist during a rip cut. The blade then tries to climb on top of the wood and hello kick back.
> 
> If Emerson Electric had made a replacement adjustment yoke with either steel threaded inserts or used steel for that part, the saw would still be made today. From what I have observed, it was the best radial arm saw then and now. What didn't help was Sears kept cheapening the saw. I paid $179 for the saw new. That would be about $1080 today. If I was just starting to build a woodshop today, that RAS with the steel yoke adjustment block would be a prime choice.


Here's what I found. The yokes on my saw from the 70's are not aluminum and not threaded. They are steel and the bolt goes all the way through and has a nut on the bottom. The aluminum must have been something Emerson did later to cut costs. This may explain why my saw stays in alignment and returns to 90 degrees after a mitre cut.

Take a look at the picture, I stuck a magnetic pick up tool on the side to show that it's steel and you can see the removed bearing has a bolt with a nut. The hole in the yoke is not threaded.

I think Craftsman saws get a bad rap sometimes because someone who worked with a later vintage 10" model assumes that every model Cradtsman RAS from day one has the same low quality. It's just not true. It's like having a lemon Ford Escort and then telling people all Fords are crap.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

JayArr said:


> Here is what I use on my RAS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazon sells an Oshlun 10" which I bought a while back, but haven't installed it yet!


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

JayArr said:


> Something in the back of my mind told me something was wrong with this idea that the Sears yoke was threaded aluminum. I was sure that when I adjusted the eccentric bolts on the bearings of my RAS I used two wrenches. And I was right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They weren't called Ford "Exploders" because they had a good radio ...... LOL (Ford Explorers)
Remember the phony CBS or NBC set up they had for gas tank explosions?








Did Pintos really explode in the 1970s?


At a time when the typical car took 43 months to design and build, the Pinto was ready in just 25. Sure, mistakes were made — but did the subcompact car from Ford really explode when hit from behind?




auto.howstuffworks.com




I think I recalled that correctly? If not, here's another example:








'Dateline''s disaster


NBC and General Motors feud over a staged car accident




ew.com





Is your saw a 12" or a 10"?
I have both and if I remember, the 10" ones had the aluminum plates and the 12's had the steel ones?


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Mine is 12", 240V - 113.23301, maybe that's the difference.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Guys, guys, please.

Go to the nearest Home Depot and the tool crib. Then ask that crusty old phart that has been there since forever, "Please show me the difference between a table saw blade and a radial arm saw blade." When you look at the blades it is obvious that the RAS blade has teeth that lean away from the direction of cut. 

I'm a computer propeller head that has learned to 'Never say never'. but is this case I will say:
Never, ever, never . . . Did I say NEVER? Never use a table saw blade in a RAS. Your fingers are more valuable than the cost of saw blades. I know that some of you very experienced types will start with "But . . " All I can say is "Yeah I know but I don't want to hear it." 

Please just DON'T.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

NoThankyou said:


> Guys, guys, please.
> 
> Go to the nearest Home Depot and the tool crib. Then ask that crusty old phart that has been there since forever, "Please show me the difference between a table saw blade and a radial arm saw blade." When you look at the blades it is obvious that the RAS blade has teeth that lean away from the direction of cut.
> 
> ...


Yes, that would be the best way, But ....
Some of us old pharts so so far back that when radial arm saws came out, well not quite that far back, But back then table saw blades were all there were.
No one had figured out the physics of negative tooth rake angle back then, so we stiff armed the carriage and dealt with it. Those of use with strong arms, did OK, others without, maybe not so much. I use a 60 tooth Diablo in my RAS today with no difficulty, but the rake angle may be less than 15 degrees, I donno?
It's like riding a 1200 lb. horse, you need to form an understanding with the beast and show it who's running the show, kinda. 
I'll wager that a 60 tooth blade has a less aggressive bite than a 30 tooth or 40 tooth blade, so there's less tendency to self-feed.
The only 10" negative rake blade I've been able to find is the Oshlun on Amazon, and I did get one. I'll put it on, and see if there's a big difference?
Relax, Rich, But I'll be OK, thanks for your concern pal!


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Perfect timing. Look what I just came across. This books talks about how a "chip limiting" blade won't climb. I was wondering why nobody talked about the "shoulders" or "non cutting teeth" that only some blades have. I hadn't really put much thought into blade designs until I got a RAS. Once you look at the non cutting teeth, it's obvious that they are designed to slow down the cut and the "grab."

There is a video of a guy "BikeMikeTuna" on YouTube who has been making furniture for 40 years with his radial arm saw, and he uses a modern "chip limiting" 24T ripping blade for all cutting operations and said it barely climbs at all.

Note: The arrow is supposed to be pointing at the non-cutting tooth, but it is accidentally pointing at the carbide tooth. You can see on the dado head, a large "shoulder" tooth that doesn't have any carbide on it, to block the cut.




































woodnthings said:


> Yes, that would be the best way, But ....
> Some of us old pharts so so far back that when radial arm saws came out, well not quite that far back, But back then table saw blades were all there were.
> No one had figured out the physics of negative tooth rake angle back then, so we stiff armed the carriage and dealt with it. Those of use with strong arms, did OK, others without, maybe not so much. I use a 60 tooth Diablo in my RAS today with no difficulty, but the rake angle may be less than 15 degrees, I donno?
> It's like riding a 1200 lb. horse, you need to form an understanding with the beast and show it who's running the show, kinda.
> ...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Perfect timing. Look what I just came across. This books talks about how a "chip limiting" blade won't climb. I was wondering why nobody talked about the "shoulders" or "non cutting teeth" that only some blades have. I hadn't really put much thought into blade designs until I got a RAS. Once you look at the non cutting teeth, it's obvious that they are designed to slow down the cut and the "grab."
> 
> There is a video of a guy "BikeMikeTuna" on YouTube who has been making furniture for 40 years with his radial arm saw, and he uses a modern "chip limiting" 24T ripping blade for all cutting operations and said it barely climbs at all.
> 
> Note: The arrow is supposed to be pointing at the non-cutting tooth, but it is accidentally pointing at the carbide tooth. You can see on the dado head, a large "shoulder" tooth that doesn't have any carbide on it, to block the cut.


I think you may be on to something regarding the anti kickback "teeth". There's a small depth limiting "tooth" on a chainsaw blade, caller a "raker" by some folks.
It limits the bite of the tooth in front of it so the saw doesn't grab into the log and stall or go out of control. All chainsaw blades have them that I'm aware of.

At 9:20 in, he describes the 24 tooth ripping blade.





So, the same idea should work on a table saw or RAS blade. The Big MikeTuna guy could be right!
The other approach is of course, is the "negative rake" blade. Most common table saw blades have a 15 degree hook angle, but some are now 7 degrees. Radial arm saw blades have either zero hook or 3 to 5 degrees negative hook angle.

I applaud your keen observation and I'll take a close look at some on my table saw blades to see what their tooth and rakers are set to. Thanks!
The only dedicated radial arm saw blade I own is an Oshlun from Amazon:








Amazon.com: Oshlun SBW-100060N 10-Inch 60 Tooth Negative Hook Finishing ATB Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor for Sliding Miter and Radial Arm Saws : Everything Else


Amazon.com: Oshlun SBW-100060N 10-Inch 60 Tooth Negative Hook Finishing ATB Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor for Sliding Miter and Radial Arm Saws : Everything Else



www.amazon.com


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Studying the radial arm saw, I am convinced that it is inherently more safe than an old style table saw. My old style table saw has no riving knife, no splitter, no anti-kickback pawls, no clear plastic blade guard, and no brake on the motor, and a crappy fence that is always about 1/32 or more out of square when you tighten it down, and my tablesaw blade also tilts the wrong way (towards the right), which makes right handed bevel cuts very clumsy, since you need to put the fence on the left side of the blade to do bevel cuts safely.
> 
> By comparison, the 1978 (much older) radial arm saw I bought has a splitter, anti-kickback pawls, and the fence alignment won't change 1/16" out of alignment between cuts. The real inherent danger on the radial arm saw is that I've never used one, and don't have a lifetime of coordination and muscle memory on moving my hand and body around the machine, and knowing when to use a push stick, or how to hold the wood properly, etc. It's also really scary seeing the blade so close to your body, which is mostly a mental fear, because it's mostly completely enclosed under the guard.
> 
> ...


Yes, a radial arm saw "properly set up for ripping" would be safer than a crappy table saw with a crappy fence. And that's coming from a guy who has done a lot of ripping on the RAS, even one with a 28 ft long table! The trick is the setup with the nose of the blade guard just kissing the top of the board AND feeding the board into the blade from the nose guard end, not from the rear which will cause it to kick out towards the front. The blades direction of rotation is critical when ripping and it will "climb cut" if fed into the rear since the blade is spinning downward. You want to fed into the upward spinning teeth when ripping, unlike crosscutting where the downward spinning teeth first enter the board when you pull the carriage from behind the fence.
The other big safety factor when ripping that I have found is having a very long table to support large panels 4 X 8's.Of course it's very handy for making crosscuts on heavy planks as well. Support is critical for safety!

A few simple, but critical processes that must be followed for safe operation!


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Here's a good project for the radial arm saw. It demonstrates how to make equally spaced dados, for shelves in this case on the side support boards using a stop block on the fence in a dado notch. The last photo shows that all the dados line up perfectly across both boards:


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Thank you for the project photos on the dado bookshelf! I actually needed that info, as I had some shelves planned, and hadn't put any thought into the spacing. I will use your technique for spacing, that's great. I built a pine book shelf 15 years ago in a big hurry, and when I was all done, I realized that some of the shelves were a hair out of alignment. A dado slot prevents it being misaligned when it gets assembled.

After reading over these posts, it's clear that manufacturers have intentionally withheld information about the "raker" or "shoulder" teeth on sawblades. Because I didn't really understand their purpose until just recently. It seems like there is a barely any information about sawblades available when you purchase a circular saw blade.

I have 4 radial arm saw books, 2 are factory manuals, one from Craftsman and one from Delta, and neither manual recommends a "negative hook" blade. And I bought 2 relatively thick guide books, one is called "The Magic of Your Radial Arm Saw." Neither of the 2 books mentions a negative hook blade. All 4 of the books above show photos of a sharp "positive hook" blade. Only one book briefly mentions the "shoulder" teeth, but nothing about a negative hook blade.

I guess I'm wondering what book, or manual introduced the negative hook blade? There's no doubt the negative hook blade is safer. But I'm wondering when it came about?




woodnthings said:


> Here's a good project for the radial arm saw. It demonstrates how to make equally spaced dados, for shelves in this case on the side support boards using a stop block on the fence in a dado notch. The last photo shows that all the dados line up perfectly across both boards:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Thank you for the project photos on the dado bookshelf! I actually needed that info, as I had some shelves planned, and hadn't put any thought into the spacing. I will use your technique for spacing, that's great. I built a pine book shelf 15 years ago in a big hurry, and when I was all done, I realized that some of the shelves were a hair out of alignment. A dado slot prevents it being misaligned when it gets assembled.
> 
> After reading over these posts, it's clear that manufacturers have intentionally withheld information about the "raker" or "shoulder" teeth on sawblades. Because I didn't really understand their purpose until just recently. It seems like there is a barely any information about sawblades available when you purchase a circular saw blade.
> 
> ...


Check the print date on those manuals! The negative hook blade has just come into it's own recently, so older manuals or books will not advocate it. I was only able to find that single 10" Oshlun on Amazon.
While most books on radial arm saws go into a lot of detail on all the various operations that saw can do, there's not much focus on the various blade types available these days, even the thin kerf blades, if they were printed 10 years ago. I use a 60 tooth thin kerf Diablo on mine and it doesn't self feed to the extent, I'm concerded about that issue.
The anti-kickback rakers may only come on ripping blades, not your general purpose or crosscut blades with 60 teeth.
So, that's why it's also a new approach to prevent "self feeding". Not may woodworkers would throw on a 24 tooth rip blade and use it for every single operation, especially crosscutting. You would need to see the amount of tearout that the blade produces on crosscuts before jumping on that theory.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

supermuble said:


> [...] After reading over these posts, it's clear that manufacturers have intentionally withheld information about the "raker" or "shoulder" teeth on sawblades. [...]


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. In my opinion, they are not "deliberately" withholding information. I think that you are exploring new areas and ideas that few people have considered before. It is as simple as that. Radial arm saws are not common these days.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Tool Agnostic said:


> I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. In my opinion, they are not "deliberately" withholding information. I think that you are exploring new areas and ideas that few people have considered before. It is as simple as that. *Radial arm saws are not common these days.*


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. They are very common all over the country since millions were sold. Most are sold now as used homeowner versions like proposed here, but every commercial shop I've been in has a large one and every lumber yard and Home Depot has a large one. Even "serious" woodworkers here have them, Big Jim, Steve Neul, and others following this thread and don't forget about me.
They have fallen out of favor because inexperienced operators, did not use them correctly and were either injured or scared to use them.
They are complex machines and require proper adjustment and setup, not always with the capability of home shop users.

Edited for clarity. Serious meaning those professionals who did woodworking, carpentry, or restoration for a living, myself excluded.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

They have been replaced in many commercial shops. Too many other options...

Some want them because there a big tool, some don't want them because there a big tool..

Most of us older fellers that have one worked with them in shops. Younger users have better , safer options...

Only two reason I have one. #1 Delta, #2 dados.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Tool Agnostic said:


> I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. In my opinion, they are not "deliberately" withholding information. I think that you are exploring new areas and ideas that few people have considered before. It is as simple as that. Radial arm saws are not common these days.





woodnthings said:


> I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. They are very common all over the country since millions were sold. Most are sold now as used homeowner versions like proposed here, but every commercial shop I've been in has a large one and every lumber yard and Home Depot has a large one. Serious woodworkers here have them, Big Jim, Steve Neul, and others following this thread and don't forget about me.


My main points were:

I do not believe that blade manufacturers are deliberately withholding information about depth limiting shoulders. In my opinion, the explanation is mundane: Few people have shown much interest.
Radial arm saws are not selling in large numbers today. Sure, there are lots of old tools, but the numbers are dwindling.
Responding to your post: "Serious woodworkers here have them, Big Jim, Steve Neul, and others following this thread and don't forget about me." 

No we haven't forgotten about you. Since you have a radial arm saw, you are a serious woodworker. You are such a serious woodworker that you can walk to any place in your shop without setting foot on anything but table saw tables.

Sadly, the rest of us without radial arm saws are doomed to be forgotten as not serious woodworkers.

I used to have a radial arm saw. I built furniture, a kitchen, a room addition, helped build a house, and made many other woodworking projects with it. Now that I don't have it any longer, where do I return my "Serious Woodworker" certificate?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

That post tells me you are no longer serious about much of anything anymore. I know you are being facetious, so count me in also.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

It has been 20 years since I was involuntarily retired. It has been longer than that when I bought my first table saw to replace my 1971 (or so) Craftsman radial arm saw. The reason this is important is the time frame. After setting up the table saw and fence, I noticed (duh) that the Jet supplied blade was not giving the best of cuts. 

I went to Home Depot for a new blade. I find that crusty old phart in the tool crib that has been there since forever. I say, "I need a blade, 10 inch." He says, "Table saw or Radial Arm Saw?" That my friends was about the turn of the century. Because neither of us knew the difference between blades, he got one of each. One of us noticed difference in the "Hook Angle" of the blades. And on a RAS a negative Hook Angle is mandatory if you want to keep all ten.

The funny thing is that a negative hook angle blade can be used in a table saw but a positive hook angle should never be used in a RAS.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Guys!
Remember what you learned in your Kindergarten Sand Box class. Play nice.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

woodnthings said:


> That post tells me you are no longer serious about much of anything anymore. I know you are being facetious, so count me in also.


Alright, then the serious aspect of the facetious post is: 

I would not judge whether someone is a "serious woodworker" by the tools they own. Owning a radial arm saw does not say anything about whether you are a serious woodworker or not. I know many people who I consider serious woodworkers who do not own a radial arm saw. Some owned them in the past. Others not.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree to a point. By your own admission you had one and used it extensively, then sold it it. These days larger shops, commercial and industrial applications have the 14" and 16: "serious" radial arm saws I was referring to. The home shop versions 8",9" and 10" versions would not meet those industrial standards for size and rigidity.
A 12" RAS is kinda in between, but is called "professional" in the Sears catalog. The word serious has several meanings and you took the one that describes a persons attitude. That was not the meaning I had in mind, rather I was describing the size and capacity of the saw itself. No offence was meant to you or any "serious" woodworkers.
The OP's question has been asked here countless times:








Radial arm saw?


Can you give me some input regarding adding a radial arm saw to my shop? I have a table saw but, I am not very proficient cross cutting long boards. My miter saw is only 10" non sliding so, less than 6" is all it can cut. Pros Cons Thanks Troy




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Not one mainstream blade company mentions "anti-kickback shoulders." I actually couldn't find a high quality blade for sale on Amazon that mentions the purpose of the shoulders. 

My point is, this lack of information about anti-kickback teeth is odd. I only figured it out by accident, despite reading dozens of articles from wood working magazines, and none of those articles mentioned the "non cutting shoulders" either!

Blade engineering and the science of blades, is sorely lacking. The manufactures don't make any mention to the purpose of "positive hook" or "negative hook" or the anti-kickback shoulders. Wouldn't it make sense to explain the engineering of the tooth geometry on the package, since it's extremely important?

My conclusion is that it's a legal liability for the manufacture to make bold claims about their blades. If they call it an "anti-kickback" or "cut limiting" or "anti-climb blade," then they are putting themselves in a bad spot, in terms of legal liability.

Saw blade packages talk about the paint, and the "cooling slots" and the "anti-vibration slots." But there is zero information about the engineering of the tooth geometry and the shoulders.

Here is an example, taken straight from Amazon listing for an Irwin 10" blade. Notice, the lack of information about the hook angle, or the shoulders.
















*Product description: (copied from Amazon).*

The Irwin Tools 1807367 Marples Laser Cut 10-Inch 40-Tooth Alternate Tooth Bevel Circular Saw Blade is part of a full line of fine woodworking saw blades that are manufactured in Italy to the highest standards of precision required for fine woodworking and finish carpentry. These industry-leading laser-cut, thin kerf saw blades are produced in a highly-automated, state-of-the-art facility in Udine, Italy - the heart of high-quality circular saw blade manufacturing. Engineered with oversized, high-quality carbide, the new Marples Woodworking Series saw blades provide the extended life and flawless finish professional woodworkers and finish carpenters demand. The blades are precision tensioned for flawless cuts. They also feature a heat resistant, non-stick coating that has an Aluminum Matrix added to it to dissipate heat for easy clean up and truer, cleaner cuts. The 10-Inch 40-Tooth blade features an alternate top bevel where the teeth alternate between a right and left bevel to form a knife like edge on either side for a cleaner cut. This blade is ideal for general purpose cutting on a table saw or miter saw. The 10-Inch 40-Tooth blade works great on hardwoods, softwoods, composite materials and pressure treated lumber.


----------



## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

supermuble said:


> Not one mainstream blade company mentions "anti-kickback shoulders." I actually couldn't find a high quality blade for sale on Amazon that mentions the purpose of the shoulders.


That's because it is a feature of ripping blades, not crosscut blades. The existence of anti-kickback shoulders on a crosscut blade would amplify the propensity to self feed, not diminish it. A crosscut blade (in this case) is operating in a climb-cut operation, while a ripping blade is always operated in a push-cut operation.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I've been confused by so many people claiming that the "Craftsman radial arm saws" can't cut a straight cut, and are unable to be used for miter cuts, because you literally "can't touch the saw" without ruining the alignment. There must be a reason for these people not having the saw miter "detents" set correctly?

I haven't taken my saw apart yet. It appears to have all the original factory settings. The guy I bought it from told me to adjust the table, not the saw. So I brought it home, and set the table at 90 degrees to the blade. As far as I can tell, it is able to do accurate 45 degree miters, then return to 90 degrees properly.

I wonder if people improperly adjust their 90 degree or 45 degree "detent screws" inside the column, and this causes the 2 detents to be out of phase with eachother? I have no idea, just a thought.

I set the saw to 45 degrees, and cut a few pieces. Then I returned the saw to 90 degrees, it clicked in, and then I locked it down. The saw returned exactly to zero degrees. Thank God. Based on what I read, a radial arm saw cannot actually be used for miter cuts, or else you need to send it to the scrap pile. Lol.

One reason I got my saw is to learn about radial arm saws. So far, I'm extremely impressed with the build quality and precision. I honestly can't find a flaw with the way the parts are engineered. The overall design seems very well thought out. Although it's made mostly from aluminum and plastic.

Pros
-Very quiet. Doesn't require any hearing protection to cut. At least 50% quieter than tablesaw or miter saw.
-Extremely accurate. Detents at 90 and 45 appear to be perfectly set from the factory.
-Switches, knobs, bearings, sliding mechanism, column, appears to be very strong and precise.

Cons:
-Has plastic guards covering the slide bearings.
-Has a plastic top.
-Is made mostly from cast aluminum and plastic.
-The factory splitter wheel is flimsy plastic, and not as good as a riving knife.
-The power switch should be located near the motor, for safety.
-Has a really bad reputation due to "Craftsman" saws being considered bad.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

supermuble said:


> I've been confused by so many people claiming that the "Craftsman radial arm saws" can't cut a straight cut, and are unable to be used for miter cuts, because you literally "can't touch the saw" without ruining the alignment. There must be a reason for these people not having the saw miter "detents" set correctly?
> 
> I haven't taken my saw apart yet. It appears to have all the original factory settings. The guy I bought it from told me to adjust the table, not the saw. So I brought it home, and set the table at 90 degrees to the blade. As far as I can tell, it is able to do accurate 45 degree miters, then return to 90 degrees properly.
> 
> ...


Any craftsman I've used wouldn't stay in line. A rough cut saw at best.

I believe that if a single person uses it and takes care it should be okay. Multiple users it's and different story..


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> As far as I can tell, it is able to do accurate 45 degree miters, then return to 90 degrees properly.



Mine does as well SuperMuble, I'm just a hobbiest, I don't earn a living with it but I've owned it for 20+ years and I have only needed to align it once after a move and once after I built it a new table top.

I love the versatility of the RAS, when you have time start exploring the accessories, you can get molder/shaper heads to make trim and cabinet doors, there is a chuck that will thread on one end that I use to put a drum sander in. It excels at making rabbets and dados.

I encountered all of these comments when I first came here, it's unsafe, you'll lose a finger, it's not a matter of if - but when, don't ever rip, it won't hold alignment, it's not accurate etc etc etc. 

Some of the comments come from fear, some may have had saws built on Monday, some were in attentive - once, some may not have read a manual and set the saw up properly.

I eventually decided that if *my* saw works and *I'm* not afraid to use it then the problems with inaccuracy or danger or safety belong to the other guy. Take it as a badge of honor, if you can run a RAS and make accurate cuts and not hurt yourself you've mastered a machine that not everyone masters.


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

supermuble said:


> I've been confused by so many people claiming that the "Craftsman radial arm saws" can't cut a straight cut, and are unable to be used for miter cuts, because you literally "can't touch the saw" without ruining the alignment.


Sounds like you are talking about me, at least in part, but that is not what I said.



Kudzu said:


> As for Craftsman RAS, I had two and will not have another. *N*_*o I don't think all Craftsman are bad*_ but my two were horrible. All the typical issues, one wouldn't even cut a straight line. Seriously!


And I also said


Kudzu said:


> The newer ones were not well made._ *I think there are still some low mileage models out there that work well,*_ But I expect they would eventually wear out too. I think the reason is they were _value engineered _to a point they wore out quickly and were hard if not impossible to repair. I sincerely believe Sears is the main reason for the bad reputation the RAS has.
> .


You just said the one you bought was barely used. So of course it works good.
I hope you have found a good one and it holds up. They are out there but I still say from what I have seen you found the unicorn, not the average one.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I doubt that any were "worn out" from homeowner use. They may have been poorly setup, or poorly maintained. There's just not that many parts that could wear out, certainly not the hardened steel tails the carriage rides on. Possibly the :V" groove bearing, but they can be adjusted to snug up and remove any excess play, so not likely.
Crappy, cheap design more than likely. I just checked about 6 of my RASs, some 12" and some 10", for slop in the arm to column lockup, and there was a negligible amount. 
Unicorns do exist, however.


----------



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

It should be noted... that because Craftsman saws were sold to homeowners they were shipped as a box of parts with instructions. In order to get a good working RAS you had to first be a decent mechanic/toolmaker to assemble and align it properly.

This contrasts to other saws that arrive fully assembled and calibrated from the factory. 

Some of the stories about accuracy may have been caused by poor assembly.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I go to Marketplace and almost all craftsman RAS saws are for sale.there just being replaced.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

To continue with my heretical and senseless posts about how "good" my 1978 Craftsman radial arm saw is, here is another one to cause outrage. haha.
P.S. I brought home a really ugly free Dewalt 10" RAS today, a model 740. It was a bad idea bringing it home. But now I can compare it to the Craftsman.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

I don't think that "shoulders" is the correct term. Shoulders implies something on the side. The anti kickback gizmo that I have seen is something behind the teeth and affixed to the blade. IMNSHO I don't understand how they work preventing kick back.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

OK, angular or miter cuts on a Craftsman RAS. You got two choices. Hold the wood with the left hand or the right hand. Not really a big deal except. to which side do you exert pressure, right or left? What's that? You don't! Well then you are a better woodworker than I. 

At school, a fellow student said that he can make as close to perfect miter cuts on his Craftsman RAS. I sort of gave him an evil eye look. He then amplified the statement with, "But I know which way to pull to make the cut."


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

NoThankyou said:


> *OK, angular or miter cuts on a Craftsman RAS. You got two choices. Hold the wood with the left hand or the right hand. Not really a big deal except. to which side do you exert pressure, right or left? What's that?* You don't! Well then you are a better woodworker than I.
> 
> At school, a fellow student said that he can make as close to perfect miter cuts on his Craftsman RAS. I sort of gave him an evil eye look. He then amplified the statement with, "But I know which way to pull to make the cut."


You should hold the wood with the right hand which is the way the carriage is designed to be used, blade on the left side, motor on the right side. There aren't any "lefty" RASs that I know of. 
Your arms should never be crossed in the blade path, nothing goes in there except the workpiece.
For miters, I wouldn't angle the arm, rather use a 45 degree stop screwed to the top on the right side, you can flip the piece around for the opposite end miter. A digital miter gauge would insure accuracy. 
I see no reason for the right hand version of the jig which will cause a safety/hold down issue, unless you clamp the work.
I would never use it. 
A large 45* plywood triangle placed again the fence. like a sled will work well also:








How to Cut Miters on Radial Arm Saw?


Looking to improve the quality of my miter cuts. The tool available is the good old RAS. So, I need to miter some edging, 3/4" thick x 2" wide. The miters will be across the 3/4" dimension (as in base molding, not as in a picture frame). Will I get the best miter by using one of those...




www.woodworkingtalk.com







Miters on radial arm saw, jig - Google Search


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> I doubt that any were "worn out" from homeowner use.


One of the two I had was bought new by my father. Just used at home.
Tried to adjust it but there were not adjustments to take all the play out of the arm. Very poor design. It was the one that couldn't cut a straight line.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The discussion on "negative hook blades" continues here:


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

@woodnthings 
That picture is priceless!


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Well, my "new" Craftsman 1978 radial arm saw, model 113-197751 started squealing. It got really cold and humid for the last 2 weeks and snowed. And since it snowed, the saw developed a permanent intermittent chirping/squeaking from the motor.

I feared the worst, and thought maybe the centrifugal capacitor start linkage that was damaged. I took the motor apart and it's just 2 worn out bearings that are dry, and loose. I found something interesting! These motors have both a capacitor start, and an automatic brake!

Someone came up with a very clever mechanism, where the capacitor start clutch mechanism actually has a brake pad on it, and when the motor slows down, the spring loaded asbestos disc brake engages and gently slows the motor. It's not a conventional electronic brake, but it's certainly 90% better than no brake at all, like on a bench grinder.

For bearings on the Craftsman 1978 10" radial arm saw, model: 113-197751 I ordered 2: *NTN 6203 Size I.D. 15.875, type doubled sealed LLU rubber contact seals, CN (standard) clearance. *They make about 5 different types of bearings, and they make a "loose" bearing called a C3 or C4. But I don't plan on heavy duty, high temperature operation, so I didn't want the loose C3/C4 bearings.

Now the problem is, I don't know how to take off the arbor threads. I searched for an hour and I haven't been able to find any information about how to remove the pressed on arbor. I'm going to pound the pin out. But then I am not sure how exactly to remove it. I am guessing I'll have to push against the actual armature, in order to remove it.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

You are one of the very few who dared take one of those motors apart! I did the same repair and I needed to remove the arbor nut also:








Craftsman 12" RAS Motor Rebuild


Mine started making a funny clicking noise so I thought, based on a message from dodgeboy77 aka Bill, I would split 'er open and see what's what :eek:. The motors are expoxied together at the Emerson factory and are not supposed to be rebuilt, so I knew it would be a challenge. Bill also...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Wow thanks for the photo. So that arbor nut is actually just a pressed on hollow nut, and not part of the threaded shaft?

So far, I really like my Craftsman saw, so I couldn't see giving up on it so soon. Do I need a shop press to reinstall the bearings, or will a hammer work? 

I bought a $45 puller, as I didn't realize that the arbor nut could be removed with a standard gear puller.


















woodnthings said:


> You are one of the very few who dared take ine of those motors apart. I did the same repair and I needed to remove the arbor nut also:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I may have used a deep well socket and hammer, I don't remember, but no arbor press.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

My Craftmans 1976 RAS has been my go to saw since then. What I didn't like is doing miter cuts as it makes a mess of the fence. I have since only have one cut line perfect 90 degrees to the fence, no need to make adjustments. All miter cuts are done with jigs made on the table saw. And I can't say how much better it is to use a negative hook blade with a RAS.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Do you have some photos of the jigs you made for doing miters? It seems that the main downside to a radial arm saw is that it's the only saw that requires an entirely new table and fence to be constructed periodically.

There are benefits to having an all wood table however, because you can attach jigs and guides, or extend the table, very easily.

My next project is to experiment with making the radial arm saw for safe ripping, with a riving knife, anti-kickback pawls, and foot plate or roller guide wheel right next to the blade, as well as a large clear safety guard, so that rip cuts can be easily performed much more safely, without all the typical concerns of "board lift" or board twist kick back, or having half of the blade exposed on the very poor factory guard!

Here is what I found. I paid $140 for this guard, which was a scam, because it's missing some bushings that are needed and it has 3 big scratches in it that were not shown in the eBay listing. So I'm trying to get a partial refund. This is a Craftsman 10" guard from one of the early 1970's saws, model not known.

I'm delighted to have found this, and it fits directly on my 1978 saw.

Note:

1.) This is of the very few factory guards with a proper riving knife, as well as anti-kickback pawls.
2.) There is a working incandescent light bulb that is very bright, inside the riving knife, which shines right on the cut.
3.) The sliding blade guards can offer some protection.
4.) Plexiglass can be affixed to the sliding blade guards, to create a solid barrier that is able to slide up and down, and it will extend 3" in front of the blade, to create a margin of safety.
5.) The blade guard has a foot plate which slides down and is adjustable, so you don't have to rotate the guard at a weird angle.
6.) The little foot plate guide is spring steel and rounded, so the board won't hang up on it.

Clearly this was by far the best safety guard system that Craftsman put on their saws. It's not clear why they only used it for a short period of time. It may have been too complicated for the average home owner. I only found this guard by accident after weeks of looking at photos.






















































redeared said:


> My Craftmans 1976 RAS has been my go to saw since then. What I didn't like is doing miter cuts as it makes a mess of the fence. I have since only have one cut line perfect 90 degrees to the fence, no need to make adjustments. All miter cuts are done with jigs made on the table saw. And I can't say how much better it is to use a negative hook blade with a RAS.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

The jigs are simple, I cut a 1X6 borad to the exact angle I want on the table saw, that is which held against the RAS fence, since I know where the blade will cut the stock due to the single cut line in the fence the cut is where I want it, for the opposite angle I just flip the jig left to right of the blade.
I must have ripped a mile of wood in all the years I had the RAS because that was all I had, with only one incident which left a big dent in our freezer. I now only rip on the table saw and crosscut on the RAS


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

My roommate and I got by with much less 40 years ago. There was no riving knife. The guard was a semi-circular piece of sheet metal that followed the outer curve of the blade and lifted up as you cut. The anti-kickback pawls were just a metal rod with three hinged fingers at the end. That's it.

We applied a lot of patience and care for rip cuts. We did not use guide wheels, featherboards, or other guides. We lined up the blade properly, set the anti-kickback pawls, and fed the wood carefully, paying attention to maintain registration against the fence. 

That's it. We did the best we could with what we knew and had at the time. I am sure that some amount of luck was involved that we survived that period without a kickback or serious injury.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I learned the hard way that a riving knife's primary purpose is to protect you when you're being a complete idiot, and not cutting properly. You have to be a complete moron, and completely incompetent to actually need a riving knife. But when you're a complete retard, the riving knife saves your life (literally). Because a proper riving knife won't allow violent kickbacks due to poor feeding technique, or loose push sticks. 

Using a sloppy push stick without a riving knife, is a recipe for being impaled to death by a flying board. 

If you don't have a riving knife, you need to use very precise, firm control. Having no fear, helps to maintain control of the board. If you are nervous and trying to "nudge" a board through the blade with a tiny push stick, it's not going to work at all, and a bad bad kick back will occur eventually. 






Tool Agnostic said:


> My roommate and I got by with much less 40 years ago. There was no riving knife. The guard was a semi-circular piece of sheet metal that followed the outer curve of the blade and lifted up as you cut. The anti-kickback pawls were just a metal rod with three hinged fingers at the end. That's it.
> 
> We applied a lot of patience and care for rip cuts. We did not use guide wheels, featherboards, or other guides. We lined up the blade properly, set the anti-kickback pawls, and fed the wood carefully, paying attention to maintain registration against the fence.
> 
> That's it. We did the best we could with what we knew and had at the time. I am sure that some amount of luck was involved that we survived that period without a kickback or serious injury.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

To be honest I removed the pawls on my RAS since I don't rip with it. My 70 year old table saw has no provision for a riving knife, but I do use multiple feather boards. Know what your doing and what is safe to do. If I am ripping a board and and it starts to skew closed I stop[ the saw and use another board. That board has issues and I don't want to use it for a finished project. My personal opinion is riving knifes are a pain it the butt. in the woodshop when someone makes a rabbit cut they remove it and never gets it reinstalled correctly.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

redeared said:


> To be honest I removed the pawls on my RAS since I don't rip with it. My 70 year old table saw has no provision for a riving knife, but I do use multiple feather boards. Know what your doing and what is safe to do. *If I am ripping a board and and it starts to skew closed I stop[ the saw and use another board. *That board has issues and I don't want to use it for a finished project. My personal opinion is riving knifes are a pain it the butt. in the woodshop when someone makes a rabbit cut they remove it and never gets it reinstalled correctly.


Depending on the degree of closure, you can slip in a short, thin wedge, even tap it in the kerf and still rip through the board. I do this on the table saw when ripping "reaction" wood. Plywood and other "man made" wood products will never close up on the blade, only lumber from trees. A large plywood panel is may tend to lose contact with the fence behind the blade and rise up and over causing a kickback rather than a jam like a piece of lumber. BTDT! The splitters on older saws were there to prevent that issue, so don't take them off like I did only to find out that they served a valuable function. I did drill out the rivets holding on the blade guards on mine, however. The blade guard wer just too big and in the way when trying to rip narrow stock, so I made my own, thinner and easy to remove if needed.

There's no "good wood" or "bad wood", just wood that's better for some things than others. JMO. Even the "bad" wood is "good" for burning in the wood stove. LOL
If the kerf really closes up, you won't need to "stop the saw" it will jam and stop on it's own. Stop cutting that is, but still under power! That's why all my table saws have the large Safety Paddle switched so I can keep my hands and eyes on the workpiece and bump the saw OFF with my hip. I even use this feature on a regular basis for turning off the saw normally. IF you need to look under the table to "find" the OFF switch and then take one hand off the workpiece to "operate" the switch you have lost control of the entire issue, a real hazard.


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

supermuble said:


> I learned the hard way that a riving knife's primary purpose is to protect you when you're being a complete idiot, and not cutting properly. You have to be a complete moron, and completely incompetent to actually need a riving knife.



Really? 
How do you figure you are a moron when the wood moves and pinches up on the blade as you cutting?

Or you cut off twists and get caught in the blade teeth is thrown across the shop/at you?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Kudzu said:


> Really?
> How do you figure you are a moron when the wood moves and pinches up on the blade as you cutting?
> 
> Or you cut off twists and get caught in the blade teeth is thrown across the shop/at you?


Agreed!
There's only so much you as an operator can control!
Blade pinches only occur in "reaction" wood, that is lumber from trees.
You can't control "reaction'" wood and you may not know you have it until it's too late.
Reaction wood is not very common and doesn't not occur in man made wood products like plywood.
A riving knife or splitter will prevent the workpiece form moving off the rear of the fence and rotating up and over the blade causing the most common kickback.
It has nothing to do with IQ or being a moron. there's a reason several million table saws have them, they serve an important function. Only a someone who doesn't understand how and why they work would not have one on their table saw.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

I understand how it works, but there is no provision for me to add one on my 70 year old TS, and I'm not going out to buy a new saw just to have one. I use a JET TS at the woodshop, it's okay but the fence is crappy almost impossible to accurately lock it in place where you want it. New is not always better.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

redeared said:


> I understand how it works, but there is no provision for me to add one on my 70 year old TS, and I'm not going out to buy a new saw just to have one. I use a JET TS at the woodshop, it's okay but the fence is crappy almost impossible to accurately lock it in place where you want it. New is not always better.


No need to get a new saw! Just make an insert with a wood splitter that fits in a slot right behind the blade. Many examples on You Tube:


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

That would work and don't think I didn't ponder about some way adding one, but my insert is 1/16" thick aluminum, not something I want to attach anything too. Just to add, the riving knife should follow the blade so it has to be mounted on the carriage when making a angle rip cut, not easy to do on older saws that don't provide the space/design for it. While I have designed large structural steel equipment for 30 years, I don't work with metal hands on.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I think a riving knife is essential and I won't use a table saw ever again without a riving knife, or a splitter that is properly adjusted to prevent the board twisting in between the blade and the fence. Using a conventional table saw without a riving knife, is not much different than using a radial arm saw to rip boards with no blade guard, and no anti-kickback pawls.

There is an illusion of safety on the TS, because you can't see most of the blade. But a kickback can occur with only a tiny smidge of the blade sticking up, and the projectile can travel at 95 mph straight into your neck.

Table saw kickbacks are by far the single most dangerous thing in shop. Because as several people just commented above, they can happen for no reason at all, even when all the conditions seem to be "favorable."

Many "newer" 1990's table saws have no riving knife. This is unacceptable. I can only say, I wish I had known how important they are, before having a severe kickback in June of this year.

For people who don't have a riving knife. You can find the original factory "splitter" guard for your saw. Or if you have bolt holes for the original splitter, you can bolt a chunk of old saw blade to your saw, and make a crude, but effective riving knife. Use washers as "shims" to get the riving knife in line with your cut.

The cheapest and easier solution is something they sell online called a "Micro Jig" Kerf Splitter. And it's only $25. Plus, it is easily removable when you need to perform a bevel cut. They sell 2 colors, with the green one being for standard 1/8th inch kerf blades. Yellow for narrow kerf blades.



























You simply drill 2 holes in your throat plate, and just push it into your throat plate. When you are doing a bevel cut, you simply remove the little insert. The holes are small, so it's a press fit, and just sits in the throat plate. It's better than nothing, and prevents wood from twisting when you're not paying attention or misusing your push stick, or if the wood is warped, etc.







redeared said:


> That would work and don't think I didn't ponder about some way adding one, but my insert is 1/16" thick aluminum, not something I want to attach anything too. Just to add, the riving knife should follow the blade so it has to be mounted on the carriage when making a angle rip cut, not easy to do on older saws that don't provide the space/design for it. While I have designed large structural steel equipment for 30 years, I don't work with metal hands on.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Clever design but I question the durability and strength of 3 thin plastic pins not snapping off due to lateral forces applied preventing a kick back. If you want a riving knife do it right and not a gimmick that may work


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

redeared said:


> Clever design but I question the durability and strength of 3 thin plastic pins not snapping off due to lateral forces applied preventing a kick back. If you want a riving knife do it right and not a gimmick that may work


The wood or plastic splitters keep the wood from moving off the fence behind the blade. This is a preventative, not a means of stopping one that has already started.
If it never begins, you don't need to stop it.
It doesn't take much pressure at all to keep the workpiece registered on the fence.
Those slender push sticks are not used behind the blade because they will bind the work and cause a kickback if not properly positioned.
I've made my best case for having one whether a OEM or DIY version, BUT if you chose to ignore my best advice, feel free.
It's like they say in motorcycle circles, if you haven't tipped over or crashed yet, don't give up, it will happen eventually.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

The TS I have was my fathers, I started using it my teens so that would be over 50+ years without a riving knife and no issues, While your advice is sound I see no need to go nuts about having one jury rigged installed. We can agree to disagree I hope. Just wanted to say I stopped riding a motorcycle 40 years ago, it was a not skill issue, just too many crazy drivers and bikers always lose.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Continuing on with my original intention of this thread, I want to show some used radial arm saws. I purchased 3 saws now, with the purpose of learning about them.

*1.) 1978 Craftsman 10 inch, 11 amp saw. 


















*

I.) Contrary to the general consensus that "Craftsman RAS are "thin" and not accurate, I find the saw to be built like a fine piece of industrial equipment. It has extremely good build quality, super clean, precise fit and finish.
II.) It is dialed in exactly at 90 degrees, without any adjustments needed. The cuts are always 90, even after doing miter cuts. The accuracy at 90 degrees is consistent, with no "random" deviations that are unexpected.
III.) My first thought about the Craftsman 113-197751 I got, is that they are far better than their reputation. In fact, it is laughable how inaccurate the descriptions are about these saws.
IV. ) I believe the complexity, especially the prerequisite need for reading the manual in detail, are the reason for people complaining that they can't make a 90 degree cut.
V.) For being such a complex tool with so many parts, there is nothing on the saw that feels weak or under built. Other than the knobs being plastic, and the plastic shell covering the motor, and the strange thin top cover which appears to be permanently attached, everything that matters is steel, cast iron or cast aluminum.
VI.) The Craftsman has a capacitor start motor, for instant starts, and it also has an electronic automatic disc brake on the end of the armature inside the motor housing. When you shut off the motor it comes to a stop pretty quickly, but not instantly.
VII.) The downsides to the Craftsman are, it has a lot of plastic pieces. It has no riving knife, only a terrible, low quality Kerf splitter wheel. The wheel is a good concept, but it's too loose and flimsy and too thin to really do anything. The guard also doesn't cover enough of the blade during rip cuts. The guards on all radial arm saws except the new Craftsman saws made after 1994, were mostly terrible.


*2.) Dewalt Power Shop 740 


















*

I bought this to compare to the Dewalt with the Craftsman. So far, I haven't done enough experiments to know what the differences are. The older "finned" motor on the Dewalt 7740 has a manual button you push, which enables a very strong mechanical brake inside the motor and stops it very quickly, but not instantly. This has no motor brake at all, and so I probably won't be restoring this saw. I will use the motor for a grinder, and part out the rest of the saw. The lack of any motor braking makes the saw obsolete.


*3.) Dewalt Power Shop 770 Deluxe*


























I.) This saw has my new all time favorite motor. The saw is rough, but the motor was worth the purchase price of $50. The motor is beautiful, and it sounds so quiet, it's literally "whisper" quiet. I have never heard such a quiet power tool, ever. It also has an automatic brake. The motor doesn't do a "hard stop" but stops at about the same rate as the Craftsman, in about 5 seconds.
II.) The Dewalt saws are made out of heavy gauge solid cast iron. They appear to be very good. But their design is not quite as clever and nicely laid out as the Craftsman.
III.) The handle is not ergonomically shaped, it's a slab of square metal casting, which is really strange. Most power tools have had proper handles since they were invented, but not the Dewalt radial arm saws.
IV.) The Dewalts have very little plastic, with only the top cover on the main arm being made out of plastic, and it's just a dust cover. There is a belt drive system inside to raise the arm up, which I specifically wanted.
V.) I prefer the modern front arm. Although there is a belt and plastic pulleys inside to adjust the height. But I'm not worried about it wearing out, as it takes very little effort to raise the saw.

In summary, I like the Crafftsman saw much more, because it's in nearly mint condition and was obviously well treated. The Craftsman really looks beautiful, in person. The black color and red and silver accents really look nice.

The Dewalt saws look cheap, despite being built out of solid cast iron. The Dewalt motor looks amazing, and makes up for the ugly saw. Once I fix up the Dewalt saws more, I'll have a better feel for their true potential, because they are in "rough" condition.

I'm considering buying a Delta RAS saw, because they are dirt cheap, in immaculate condition, and nobody wants them, similar to the Craftsman saws.

Only the Dewalt radial arm saws appear to have any market value. I'm not sure why people don't like the Delta or Craftsman saws. I think all of them are probably very good. The Delta saws appear to be very high quality, but most people claim the Dewalts are better, and "more accurate."

In conclusion, I've grown highly suspicious of the rumors and stories about radial arm saws. With my brief ownership, I haven't found any of the quality issues on the Craftsman that "everyone" claims. In time, I'll have much more detailed analysis and I may change my mind. 




redeared said:


> The TS I have was my fathers, I started using it my teens so that would be over 50+ years without a riving knife and no issues, While your advice is sound I see no need to go nuts about having one jury rigged installed. We can agree to disagree I hope. Just wanted to say I stopped riding a motorcycle 40 years ago, it was a not skill issue, just too many crazy drivers and bikers always lose.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

121 - 136 of 136 Posts
*@**Supermuble*
*Obviously, you have decided that a Radial Arm Saw is your solution. OK, just be careful.
Before every cut, spend 15 seconds thinking about where the wood is going to go as a result of the guides and fences. 
Just THINK.

If your thoughts are, "Now would be a nice time for a beer. . . . " Please have those thoughts inside the house. Those type of thoughts are verboten in the shop.*


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

I agree my Craftsmans RAS (the same model in your pictures) probably does 80% of my cuts, I have used a Dewalt but it didn't feel the same. I would suggest using a negative hook blade with a RAS, it stops the blade wanting to run into the wood


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Supermuble have you considered getting a Delta 12"?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

There are two different types of kickback, and I have experienced both in 55 years of table saw use.

1. While ripping both hardwood and soft wood lumber, I've had the saw kerf close up behind the blade and jam it stopped. The motor's power is still trying to spin the blade and unless you keep both hands and eyes on your workpiece it MAY get thrown back at you at about 55 MPH. The best thing to do is bump your large safety paddle switch OFF with your hip and then you can release your grip on the workpiece. If you can shut down the saw, nothing bad will happen. If you release your grip on the workpiece chances are much greater it will kick back. If you need to look under the table to find the OFF switch, you may experience a kick back in the head or face rather than the gut, far more serious!

2. The most common type is when the work piece moves away from the fence behind the blade, rotates up and over the spinning blade and is propelled back at you at 55 MPH. This will only happen IF you have allowed it (in a split second of loss of focus) OR you do not have a splitter (older or Industrial size saws) or a riving knife, (newer and most 10" table saw since around 2000.) It doesn't take any pressure on the workpiece from the splitter, just enough to prevent any movement away from the fence. This is why splitters need to be slightly thinner then the saw kerf. They can be made of thin metal plates like on older saws, thin plywood or hardwood with the grain vertical or strong plastic like Polycarbonate or Lexan. They are so easy to make even on your existing wood or plastic insert there is no excuse not to. Take out the insert and slide it over the slightly raised blade and bump the fence over so it just kisses the right edge. Remove the insert and make a short saw kerf into the rear of the insert to accept the "splitter" of your choice. Carefully fit the splitter into kerf and glue it in place, epoxy or hot melt will work with plastic or metal. Maybe someone suggested a thick washer as a splitter?
Replace the insert in the saw and test it carefully feeding the scrap in slowly.

When using the radial arm saw, there may or may not be a small wheel on the anti-kickback rod. I've never used either in all my years of operating a RAS. Mainly because I use it for cross cutting 95% of the time and kickback is not an issue.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I have not seen a Delta 12" for sale. I bet they are really nice. I wonder if they have a larger crosscut capacity? It seems that all the 10" Craftsman and Dewalt RAS have a 13.50" crosscut capacity. You can get to 15" or so if you remove the fence, and move it further back, which puts the wood dangerously close to the blade to start the cut.



Rebelwork said:


> Supermuble have you considered getting a Delta 12"?


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

*FLYING BOARDS*

OMG. Thank you for this information. Getting hit in the head while trying to "find" the power switch sounds mortifying. Now I am even more glad that I just ordered a new "giant" paddle switch. It's sitting in a box in the kitchen, ready to go on the Grizzly saw.

So what about the radial arm saw power switch situation? I have a hollow aluminum handle on my Craftsman RAS, which might accept a small toggle switch. Having the blade running while reaching up for the power switch just seems like an insane engineering idea.

I also think there must be a way to put a "quick lock" on a radial arm saw (which all of them should have had from the factory) where you park the carriage and lock it solidly? I have been tightening the slide screw down snug, before taking my hands off of the saw.

Really good information about the "frisbee" style kickback. I thought it was more like 95 mph. A small piece of wood at 55 mph is bad, but 95 mph is where people get impaled or have internal bleeding. I think the speed probably depends on just how well the wood latches on to the blade? One thing is for certain, and it's that there is no time to react. In fact, when it happened to me (small piece of hardwood shooting away like a rocket) my brain didn't even register what happened until the wood had already flown across the shop and hit the ground. It happens in about 1/20th of a second, the wood leaves the saw at the same speed of the blade teeth.


*SPLITTERS AND RIVING KNIVES:*

We are in agreement, and I pray that people reading this will not continue to ignore it. Install a homeade splitter or Shark Guard aftermarket riving knife, or a "Micro Jig" splitter on their table saw (and on a radial arm saw if you can figure out how).

There is a reason you found this message. Install a $2.00 splitter. Find a flap of some strong plastic, aluminum or thin hardwood, and just cut a kerf in your insert throat plate, and then tap the piece of material into the slot, and put some superglue or black automotive silicone on it. If you have to do a bevel cut, just remove the insert plate or buy another one, or make another one from some MDF wood.

The splitter helps you make perfect cuts without ruining a nice piece of wood. It helps you make better cuts more accurately. It doesn't have any downsides. On a radial arm saw, a "negative" tooth blade is the wrong type of blade. Negative tooth angle is not how you cut wood, it's how you "avoid" cutting the wood by repelling the wood.

A kerf splitter isn't the same as putting on a blade that cuts worse, to keep you safe. With a splitter you can run a super dangerous, aggressive, "High ATB" super hook blade. Because even if you start making the cut way too fast, and get carried away and get sloppy, the splitter will provide a straight rail to keep the kerf going straight. You might get some burning with a sloppy cut, but it won't "jam" or burn super bad like what happens when you begin twisting a large sheet of plywood when you're feeding it poorly.


*THE OTHER REASON FOR KICKBACK*

The thing that people don't realize is the 3rd reason for kickback. Unexplained brain glitch. Are you reading this? It's your brain, working like a machine. The brain is good, but it's not perfect. Sometimes our brain goes offline for no reason.

I know this is cringe. But bear with me. Because it happened to me, unexpectedly. I am still confused how it happened. I had a "brain glitch" where my brain shut off, and I had a severe kickback on a table saw, after 25 years of effortless table saw usage.

If your brain malfunctions, and you "pause" for just a moment, releasing pressure from the board, just for a fraction of a second, the board can grab the side of the blade and kick back.. It wouldn't be a big deal, except that there is something really weird happening right now in the world, and there are "unknown factors" affecting people. There are at least 3 videos right now on YouTube of people who got cut this summer, by having an "unexpected brain glitch" while using their modern table saws.

The "brain glitch" actually appears to be the most common reason for saw accidents. A splitter keeps the board from flying, when you "pause" for a few milliseconds to do a "reboot."


*HOMEADE SPLITTER AND HOW THICK:*

According Shark Guard, *(check their website for excellent bolt on aftermarket guards and riving knives that fit most of the ugly old saws)*. They even have a riving knife for my 1992 Grizzly G1022.

Riving knife thickness. You can either buy one or make one with a hacksaw out of some sheet steel or stainless steel or hard aluminum, plastic, etc.
"The kerf thicknesses of blades from what we have experienced are as follows…." The riving knife or splitter is just a flap of metal that is about 0.010" narrower than your kerf.

_*Thin Kerf blade……091”-.098” Optimum splitter thickness we provide. .090”*_

*Standard Kerf blade……. .110”-.118” Optimum splitter thickness we provide. .105”

Full Kerf blade….. always 1/8” or .125” Optimum splitter or riving knife thickness is .120"*


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

I guess you have not cut 2x wood with a negative hook blade on a RAS, it doesn't aggressively run into into the wood, cross cutting on a RAS using a riving knife is not needed, it doesn't work that way unless you use the method of pushing the saw back into the wood.
I change blades on the TS often, so I would need a number of knifes depending on the kerf on the blade, and if I want make dado cut I have to remove it. My opinion if you want to use one go ahead but don't tell I me have to. Practice safe cutting and what you are comfortable with.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

supermuble said:


> I have not seen a Delta 12" for sale. I bet they are really nice. I wonder if they have a larger crosscut capacity? It seems that all the 10" Craftsman and Dewalt RAS have a 13.50" crosscut capacity. You can get to 15" or so if you remove the fence, and move it further back, which puts the wood dangerously close to the blade to start the cut.



If you want that much cutting capability, you'll have to go much larger.

You have boards over 13-15 wide?

Only thing I cut that wide is panel stick on the tablesaw..

I guess you have already picked the best for you, Dewalt..

There are all kinds of Craftsman and Dewalts on marketplace...


----------



## rogerh (Sep 13, 2020)

With all the Radial Arm Saw experts on board in this thread, I have a question. I am rebuilding a 1974 Sears Radial Arm Saw and I was wondering if there would be a problem screwing a 1/4” piece of Masonite to the table as a work surface? It would be easily replaced, once it gets scared up.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

I have done that in the past and it works, since I only do crosscuts now I have not had to replace it or the fence.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Rogerh... Are you saying there something wrong with the art work on my RAS table? 😜 😜


----------



## rogerh (Sep 13, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> Rogerh... Are you saying there something wrong with the art work on my RAS table? 😜 😜
> View attachment 433316


Do you have coffee while you are working with your RAS? Looks fine👍.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

rogerh said:


> Do you have coffee while you are working with your RAS? Looks fine👍.


I use it to change bearings, etc. It always seems my go to place when it needs to sit a day or two.... it took 1617 years to get that beautiful.lol


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

rogerh said:


> With all the Radial Arm Saw experts on board in this thread, I have a question. I am rebuilding a 1974 Sears Radial Arm Saw and I was wondering if there would be a problem screwing a 1/4” piece of Masonite to the table as a work surface? It would be easily replaced, once it gets scared up.


There are other ways to keep the top nice and have "zero clearance" cuts on the table:
1. Make a dado 3/4" wide front to back edge on the table right below the blade's kerf. Then insert a 3/4" wide thin, sacrificial strip which you can replace when it gets chewed up.
2. Use Bondo occasionally to fill the kerfs. It's less work and does the same thing. Sand it flush.
3. Replace the fence or slide it over occasionally to make new kerf for accurately locating your workpiece.

What is the speed of a table saw kickback?
A guy on LJ forum did the math and came up with 148 MPH








Kickback


So How Fast Does That Piece of Wood Launch from the Table Saw? Since I bought my first table saw about 6 wees ago, I have managed to keep all my fingers firmly attached to my body. I did managed to get smacked by the off-cut that kicked back once leaving a bruise on my forearm. This got me to...




www.lumberjocks.com





Another site says 120 MPH:


https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/saw-kickback-expert-outlines-fundamentals-of-saw-safety/#:~:text=Kickback%20occurs%20when%20the%20teeth,a%20violent%20and%20unexpected%20manner


.

My guesstimate was remembering from years ago when I did the math and came up with 55 MPH.
That may have been on a router table? with a smaller diameter bit at a higher RPM?
I can't disagree with the LJ math and procedure, so he's probably right. Maybe I used a motor speed of 3400 RPMs?
You need to change FPM into miles per hour.
5,280 ft in a mile, 10 in X 3.14 = 31.4 X blade speed of 4,000 RPMs = 125,600 in per minute.
125,600 / 12" = 10,466 ft per minute. 10,466 FPM / 5,280 = 1.982 miles per minute X 60 = 118.9 MPH
I remember that number! And that very close to the 120 MPH in the robsonforensic link.

See post number 5 here:








Kickback: Oh the Irony!


~Disclaimer~ Photos to follow Oh the irony! I had a kickback last night that hit me the the hip. It was not any ordinary kickback though. I was ripping some short lengths of wood and had finished a cut on my Ridgid TS3660. Using push sticks, blade guard on, taking all precautions. Then I...




www.woodworkingtalk.com





Number 7 here:








I just had a sickening thought about losing fingers


Here I am setting up my shop so I can make things in my retirement. I am 52 now and am on the road to retire early (if Obama doesn't take my money to give to someone who hasn't saved for their retirement). Anyway, I also play a banjo. Oh, man. If I were to lose a finger on a saw, there would go...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> There are other ways to keep the top nice and have "zero clearance" cuts on the table:
> 1. Make a dado 3/4" wide front to back edge on the table right below the blade's kerf. Then insert a 3/4" wide thin, sacrificial strip which you can replace when it gets chewed up.
> 2. Use Bondo occasionally to fill the kerfs. It's less work and does the same thing. Sand it flush.
> 3. Replace the fence or slide it over occasionally to make new kerf for accurately locating your workpiece.


That sounds like work. Easier to just put 1/8 masonite on from time to time..


----------



## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

I have the masonite but I figure that the top and fence are just wear items that need to be replaced periodicaly, just like sandpaper.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Masonite is a good surface, just dark. But very slick..


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> That sounds like work. Easier to just put 1/8 masonite on from time to time..


I would most likely cut through 1/8" thick Masonite. 😕


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I don't think I did.. I just barely touch the surface..


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Rebelwork said:


> I don't think I did.. I just barely touch the surface..


Same here, but if your base surface is not flat you will have to cut deeper


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

redeared said:


> Same here, but if your base surface is not flat you will have to cut deeper


I believe the Delta has 4 way adjustment on the table,. Been a long time since I've messed with it but believe it does...


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

OH MY GOD.. This video! HAHAHA. Since having a bad kickback on my table saw, I have begun studying saw guards and kick back, and saw safety. I won't allow myself to continue wood working unless I make safety the number #1 priority above everything else. I bought 2 books on table saws, and 2 on radial arm saws. It's been a very slow process, because there are hundreds of different methods of improving safety, and I used improper technique for 25 years. Trying to unlearn and start over with new techniques isn't an easy process. And now, I realize that I even need to study "miter saw" safety too. GOOD GOD this video?? hahaha.

This is my favorite video so far. The guy's reaction is priceless. It looks like he was trying intentionally to destroy his high quality Ryobi. And then at the end when he tries to use the saw, and it's totally locked up. LMFAO. This is a classic.

Turn up the volume full blast for the best effect!


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The moral of that story is "round workpieces and circular saws do not go together" ......... BTDT!
When the saw blade enters the work, it wants to rotate it and when that happens the blade takes a turn into a different kerf, jamming it.
It's wasn't a serious mishap, and it was very predictable in my view. There's really no safe way to hand hold a round workpiece, so a clamp is a better option.
How do you clamp a round surface against a flat table and fence? Maybe the factory hold down with a spike? Maybe a spike on the fence?
On my bandsaw when resawing a large log, I used a power planer to make a flat surface to rest on the table. It only took a minute or two:








Power Planer uses


Not everyone would use their power planer for this operation but on a green Box Elder log it created a flat on the bottom (along with a spud) in less than a minute. A quick way to get the log ready for the bandsaw for a safe pass with a flat on the bottom rather than round. 3 more passes and I...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I suppose the video above is still a good reminder of how dangerous a round work piece is.

The power planer looks really nice. I didn't realize you could remove so much material so easily with a portable planer. I should get one. One thing I need to do often, which I've always used a table saw for, is machining used boards to the same width, so assorted boards can be used to build birdhouses or boxes, etc. I always "shave" a sliver of wood off various boards, a little at a time, using the table saw. I never used a push stick or riving knife, and always ran my hand right next to the blade. But I'm trying to review new ways of doing things.

A hand planar is no good for plywood or machining board edges, or going across the "end grain" of a board? I'm assuming it's only good for going along the length of a board, with the grain, and only on relatively large pieces?




woodnthings said:


> The moral of that story is "round workpieces and circular saws do not go together" ......... BTDT!
> When the saw blade enters the work, it wants to rotate it and when that happens the blade takes a turn into a different kerf, jamming it.
> It's wasn't a serious mishap, and it was very predictable in my view. There's really no safe way to hand hold a round workpiece, so a clamp is a better option.
> How do you clamp a round surface against a flat table and fence? Maybe the factory hold down with a spike? Maybe a spike on the fence?
> ...


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

That was a dummy, attaching a higher fence and clamping the round stock to it and using a less aggressive blade would have worked. Ryobi makes descent tools but I wouldn't say they are high quality.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Lol. Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I would never own a Ryobi, even if it was free. I tried buying a nice looking Ryobi cordless drill in 2004, and the batteries would only hold a charge for a few weeks. I'll never own them again. They do make some nice sliding miter saws now, that look like a super good deal. But I'm still bitter about my NiCd batteries being totally defective, right out of the package.



redeared said:


> That was a dummy, attaching a higher fence and clamping the round stock to it and using a less aggressive blade would have worked. Ryobi makes descent tools but I wouldn't say they are high quality.


----------



## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

I had a full set of Ryobi hand tools... donated almost all of them to the local Habitat-for-Humanity store. It's like Duplo Legos vs. Technic Legos.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

In learning about radial arm saws, I have found more "rumors" and "myths" about them than any other tool. It's becoming comical listening to the wildly varying stories and opinions. One common theme I've found is that the people who dislike them, don't seem to understand how to use them properly, and never can explain why a table saw is somehow "safer."

Table saws are regarded as "normal" and "safe" and not really difficult to use. Radial arm saws are considered "super dangerous" and "unable to rip a board" and "impossible to get an accurate cut."

On a table saw, if the cut is not accurate, you adjust your miter gauge, or your fence, or your entire arbor trunion. But on a radial arm saw, you just blame the saw, don't do any adjustments, and then tell people "all of these saws are trash."

Here is yet another video of a man who has a great deal of experience explaining how a radial arm saw is "extremely dangerous" because it can "climb towards you" or "push the work piece over the fence and have it hit you." And this person explains how the saw is not accurate enough to cut a straight cut or a miter, and "way" too dangerous to do a rip cut, because it's just too "awkward" and weird!

He makes valid points, for *his* particular saw. But reading the comments in his video was very intriguing, as many people explain how they actually are scared to use a table saw, and they use a radial arm saw, because they are more familiar with it.


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Most issues with RAS are users mistakes. The video brought up some points to note.
Yes the saw will tend to run into the wood (someone here mentioned to never use a negative hook blade) but it does solve that issue and the only blade I use.
As far as accuracy goes that is only an issue if you didn't set it up correctly, whenever I changed a fence or top, I would go through all the steps truing up the blade/carriage, yes a pain in the butt but I know my cuts will be accurate.
Ripping is the major issue, knowing what is safe and what is not, like I said I have ripped a lot of wood in 40+ years with only one mishap. Now I only rip on the TS to me it is easier but you can also have mishaps on that also. I have watched a lot of videos and said no way I would ever do that but I guess it comes down to your skill level and what you feel comfortable doing.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Start at 10:00. Talks about how all his professional RAS wood shop saws use a conventional table saw blade. Goes into detail about how dangerous a sliding compound miter saw can be, if used incorrectly. At 32:00 he does an extremely terrifying but very simple rip cut. The close up camera angle right next to the giant blade is absolutely mortifying.  Also, notice the lack of anti-kickback pawls or a splitter/riving knife!

At 33:00 I think he makes the most important point about the radial arm saw. The table is made out of wood, therefore you can attach any jig imaginable, by just attaching it with some wood screws.

And, at 39:00 minutes, you won't be able to sit through the video anymore, due to massive stress, as he does a "rip dado cut" with a 10" dado stack, no anti-kickback pawls, and hands next to the blade. I got sick to my stomach watching that one.. OMG.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I don’t think so…

Any tool can be dangerous if used incorrectly. Didn’t you watch RIDDICK with the tea cup?


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

That was one of the best movie scenes in history. Underrated. haha!!



Rebelwork said:


> I don’t think so…
> 
> Any tool can be dangerous if used incorrectly. Didn’t you watch RIDDICK with the tea cup?
> View attachment 433428


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Start at 10:00. Talks about how all his professional RAS wood shop saws use a conventional table saw blade. Goes into detail about how dangerous a sliding compound miter saw can be, if used incorrectly. At 32:00 he does an extremely terrifying but very simple rip cut. The close up camera angle right next to the giant blade is absolutely mortifying.  Also, notice the lack of anti-kickback pawls or a splitter/riving knife!
> 
> At 33:00 I think he makes the most important point about the radial arm saw. The table is made out of wood, therefore you can attach any jig imaginable, by just attaching it with some wood screws.
> 
> *And, at 39:00 minutes, you won't be able to sit through the video anymore, due to massive stress, as he does a "rip dado cut" with a 10" dado stack, no anti-kickback pawls, and hands next to the blade.* I got sick to my stomach watching that one.. OMG.


This guy is obviously very familiar with his 16" radial arm saw and has made a bunch of videos showing it's use. That 10" dado stack would scare me also and ripping with it without any hold downs or featherboards seems too risky for me. I wouldn't do it the way he does. That saw has gobs of power unlike the Craftsman 10" saws most home shop users have. I've seen the larger saws in lumber yards and a commercial door maker's shop where the are used to cut thick, long and heavy stock to length. There is no better machine for that purpose that I'm aware of. If you spent some time in a commercial shop you'd see things that would scare you that those guys just do on a daily basis. Imagine an 8" dia. X 4" high shaper cutter spinning at 8, 000 RPMs for profiling an arched door frame! Not for me! How about a 4" wide bandsaw blade for resawing with a power feed? A 16" wide jointer for surfacing wide planks, with no guard on the thing!

*There's a certain amount of physics involved when using high speed rotating cutters or saw blades, that must be understood before you can use them safely. Feed direction and depth of cut are the primary concerns on those. 
This part of the video covers feed direction and rotating the blade guard around to act as a "hold down" on the workpiece, a critical step that must be done when ripping:*


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Good video, I have done every thing he showed, but I do prefer to do raised panels on the table saw. The important point is know your equipment and only do what you feel comfortable doing.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

redeared said:


> Good video, I have done every thing he showed, but I do prefer to do raised panels on the table saw. The important point is know your equipment and only do what you feel comfortable doing.


you still use the radial arm saw over a table saw For most operations?


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Yes I usually just use the TS for ripping which I do often, every thing else is on the RAS. Essentially all cuts are crosscuts on the RAS, once properly set up I don't rotate the carriage or motor so I am assured that all cuts are square, for miters I use a jig. I don.t care for miter saws, had one and gave it away. I don't rip 4x8 plywood sheets on the TS, track saws are better suited for that. It all comes down to what works best for you with what you have IMHO


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I cross cut on RAS but still use the miter saw for everything else. Now that I've changed the miter saw To a sliding miter I probably only use the RAS for dados in trim. A lot have problems with sliders. I contribute most of that to saw, setup or wrong blade.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> I cross cut on RAS but still use the miter saw for everything else. Now that I've changed the miter saw To a sliding miter I probably only use the RAS for dados in trim. A lot have problems with sliders. I contribute most of that to saw, setup or wrong blade.


I thought you had an old Dewalt 708 and loved it?
I really like mine but it's too heavy to tote around, so I got a Bosch 4405, a 10" slider, but also a great saw.
I use my miter saws for miters and crosscuts on site and the RAS for 90 degree crosscuts in the shop.
I use the table saw for both crosscuts at 90 degrees and the rare times I need to make a miter.
The Incra miter gauges are very accurate.
It's nice to have several options that are equally accurate.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I have the D708 amd Makita LS1013 now. I kept the 708 out of the bench for specialty work and the Makita for cabinetry and mild furniture. The Delta RAS, Makita and Dewalt all cut around 13”, no gain to use the RAS of the Makita cuts square on depth..,


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I would have had no problem using a 10" dado blade with no anti-kickback pawls, before June of this year. Lol.

I always had the ability to feel and understand what the blade was doing, so I didn't really need to setup fancy jigs. I used to cut "free hand" cuts on a table saw in high school, without any riving knife, no fence, no miter gauge, and just pushing full size panels through on a big 3 phase saw, following a line that I drew on the wood, and I would get the cuts absolutely dead on. But this summer in 2021, after having severe sleep deprivation (for reasons unknown I couldn't sleep for 4 nights straight) and on my Friday, after working construction on a commercial jobsite all week with no sleep, I went into a trance state (sleep walking trance) and I began cutting in an altered state of mind.

It ended badly, as I basically "woke up" half way through the cut, but it was too late. I hadn't planned the cut, didn't have a push stick, and I was too tired to know what to do. At that point, the wood kicked back, of course, because I was standing there motionless, and I had stopped pushing the material through, because it was too narrow to push. Once you stop pushing a piece of narrow material, it will kick back, it's inevitable.

And now, I haven't used the table saw since, and it has forever ruined my confidence in saws. I'll never do anything risky ever again.

P.S. I watched several videos on table saw accidents, and a common theme is that people suddenly went into an altered "trance like" state, where they just stuck their hand straight into the blade. It had nothing to do with wrong technique, or tripping, slipping, pushing too fast, etc. Several people say they just "blacked out" and for a few seconds, they were not present. I think this is the one thing that people don't ever account for. A brain glitch!

A riving knife, blade guard, and push block, they offer protection when you are being a complete idiot and not paying attention...

In my case, I shouldn't have been anywhere near my saw after work. Being tired is probably the most dangerous factor in operating machinery.




woodnthings said:


> This guy is obviously very familiar with his 16" radial arm saw and has made a bunch of videos showing it's use. That 10" dado stack would scare me also and ripping with it without any hold downs or featherboards seems too risky for me. I wouldn't do it the way he does. That saw has gobs of power unlike the Craftsman 10" saws most home shop users have. I've seen the larger saws in lumber yards and a commercial door maker's shop where the are used to cut thick, long and heavy stock to length. There is no better machine for that purpose that I'm aware of. If you spent some time in a commercial shop you'd see things that would scare you that those guys just do on a daily basis. Imagine an 8" dia. X 4" high shaper cutter spinning at 8, 000 RPMs for profiling an arched door frame! Not for me! How about a 4" wide bandsaw blade for resawing with a power feed? A 16" wide jointer for surfacing wide planks, with no guard on the thing!
> 
> *There's a certain amount of physics involved when using high speed rotating cutters or saw blades, that must be understood before you can use them safely. Feed direction and depth of cut are the primary concerns on those.
> This part of the video covers feed direction and rotating the blade guard around to act as a "hold down" on the workpiece, a critical step that must be done when ripping:*


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Good advise, if your not up to using power tools (tired, mind else where) then don't, it is not worth the risk


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

You said:
_I used to be able to "free hand" cut any type of cut, and I had the ability to feel and understand what the blade was doing. When you spend your life running saws, since the time you are a little kid, you end up having pretty good coordination and and understanding of tools. I used to cut "free hand" cuts on a table saw in high school, without any riving knife, no fence, no miter gauge, and just pushing panels through on a big 3 phase saw, following a line that I drew on the wood, and I would get the cuts absolutely dead on. But this summer in 2021, after having severe sleep deprivation (for reasons unknown I couldn't sleep for 4 nights straight) and on my Friday, after working construction on a commercial jobsite all week with no sleep, I went into a trance state (sleep walking trance) and I began cutting in an altered state of mind._


So, with all this first hand experience why did you choose the user name "supermuble" ?
What is the meaning of this word?

Have you ever used a table saw since this sleep deprived incident, which in my opinion was completely operator error and had nothing to do with the table saw?
If not, why can't you separate the reality from the "fear"? The reality as you so rightly put it, was that you should never have been any where near a power tool.
You seem to do more than the normal amount of research on a question or a purchase and that's a good thing, within reason. Information is always a good thing when it comes to operating machines with high speed rotating cutters and blades, and as I've said many times, physics always plays an important role in their operation.
Understanding the forces present and during the initial start of the cut as on the RAS, determines what to expect and what comes next. Hand position, blade choice, feed rate, depth of cut, feed direction had better be sorted out "before" you begin cutting!
The simple piece of metal sticking up behind the blade, when it's function is understood will prevent the most common of table saw injuries, the rotational type of kickback. If you haven't experienced one yet, just hang in there, you mostly likely will, someday. Most kickbacks, unless life threatening, will go unreported since there's no visit to the ER. I only know of one that was "near fatal" that happened to an experienced table saw operator at a local lumber mill. The spear of wood kicked back into his groin, but he recovered. That would make one never want to use the table saw again, I would think!
Think of all the sports injuries, and racing injuries, that happen to folks just out trying to have fun. It's safer to sit by the TV and use the remote to change channels.
That way you don't need to get up off the couch, trip over the dog and break your ankle.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I was hurt in 85 on a tablesaw. I spent the next 35 years free hand pattern cutting for years. There were no splitters, etc .


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I haven't used my table saw at all since the kickback in June. I decided that if I am going to use it again, I need to make a serious attempt at being safer, and I would need to upgrade my saw to make it safer.

Through luck and synchronicity, I found a man with the exact same G1022 Grizzly table saw, and he was selling his ball bearing "Shop Fox" fence system, and upgrading to a Bessemeyer. I asked him about the guard, and he happened to still have the clear plastic guard with anti-kickback pawls and a splitter (the standard equipment).

The man sold me the ball bearing Shop Fox fence, which retails for $450, and the G1022 blade guard assembly, all for $150. He has been extremely helpful. Finding the exact parts I needed to make my saw better and safer, feels like a Divine blessing. I was thinking about buying a new, more modern saw, if I couldn't safely improve my saw.

Having a new fence, should eliminate a major problem. My Grizzly G1022 has one of the very worst fences ever made. If you don't continuously adjust the 2 tensioning bolts, the fence can inadvertently become super out of alignment. This might have been the cause of my kickback.

I decided that I am not going to use a table saw anymore without a splitter. Because I had no idea just how dangerous the kickback can be, if the stock "twists" and rides up on the blade. As it turns out, I had never used a table saw with a riving knife. I thought a riving knife was intended to "improve the cut." I had no idea that it was a critically important safety feature.

And in studying, I realized just how much I didn't know about proper table saw operation and safety.

I'm a commercial HVAC electrician. Wood working is just a hobby for me. I never got into advanced wood working, and never had anyone to teach me any advanced safety techniques. I never used a push stick. I didn't even have a push stick in the garage when my kickback happened.

So I'm starting over from scratch.  





woodnthings said:


> You said:
> _I used to be able to "free hand" cut any type of cut, and I had the ability to feel and understand what the blade was doing. When you spend your life running saws, since the time you are a little kid, you end up having pretty good coordination and and understanding of tools. I used to cut "free hand" cuts on a table saw in high school, without any riving knife, no fence, no miter gauge, and just pushing panels through on a big 3 phase saw, following a line that I drew on the wood, and I would get the cuts absolutely dead on. But this summer in 2021, after having severe sleep deprivation (for reasons unknown I couldn't sleep for 4 nights straight) and on my Friday, after working construction on a commercial jobsite all week with no sleep, I went into a trance state (sleep walking trance) and I began cutting in an altered state of mind._
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I haven't used my table saw at all since the kickback in June. I decided that if I am going to use it again, I need to make a serious attempt at being safer, and I would need to upgrade my saw to make it safer.
> 
> Through luck and synchronicity, I found a man with the exact same G1022 Grizzly table saw, and he was selling his ball bearing "Shop Fox" fence system, and upgrading to a Bessemeyer. I asked him about the guard, and he happened to still have the clear plastic guard with anti-kickback pawls and a splitter (the standard equipment).
> 
> ...


Well, you stumbled into the right place here!
Sounds like you got a "superdeal" on the fence and blade guard. I will say that your learning curve has gone straight up knowing what you now know. Kickbacks are most often the result of workpiece coming away from the fence behind the blade and rotating up and over it, coming back towards you, the operator at 118 MPH. The other less common issue, in my experience, are blade pinches which often result in a stalled motor as long as the operator can hold onto the workpiece and simultaneously turn the saw OFF. Unless you have a safety paddle switch at hip height to bump OFF, you now have a difficult choice. Wait until the saw overload switch trips OR remove one hand leaving a less controlled workpiece, to turn the saw OFF. Your next step in improving your G1022 should be to locate the OFF switch so you can do that! Also, sheet goods like plywood and MDF have very little tendency to pinch the blade during the ripping operation, UNLIKE hardwood or softwood lumber, especially pressure treated stuff.

I have several older saws with splitters and one newer hybrid with a riving knife. 
The safety paddle switchs are located for easy access and a hip bump to turn the saw OFF here:









You may have noticed I drilled out the plastic blade guard's rivets leaving just the splitter plate on the older saws. All that hardware just got in the way most of the time, so off it came. That included the especially annoying "antikick back pawls". I still have it in the drawer if I ever decide it should go back on. Now the issue with that is I can not make a partial height cut like for a rabbett! Splitters need a full height cut in order to clear the plate. And those splitters are especially tedious to remove and realign, not impossible, just a pain. So, when I need that partial height cut I clear off the hybrid and use it. It came with a great Beisemeyer fence and it's a joy to use. OR, having a dedicated dado set in the far right hand saw I just use that saw. Yes, it's a luxury in having several table saws in the same shop, but it's one I totally enjoy.

A partial height cut example here using the hybrid 10" Craftsman, long since discontinued, but a terrific saw:








Leg Brace Alternative Method Challenge


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/best-way-connect-2x4s-like-32744/index2/ Inspired and also perplexed...."scratchin" my head how to make them" by Lola Ranch's brace, mdntrdr and I decided, to post a challenge as to how to make them,from this: This one, actually 2, was done entirely on...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

WOW! Your shop is so beautiful! The 3 saws is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I love it!

I'm not a fan of people doing the same thing as everyone else, and being incredibly boring. Innovation is what men do best, and every man should be thinking outside the box, to make something new and different. There's nothing worse than seeing someone who has worked with tools and projects their whole life, and every project was for their boss.

This side rant is relevant. Because the radial arm saw isn't popular because someone deemed it "old" and so now everyone just follows the trend of buying a new $600 12" sliding miter saw. Most people just copy others, and don't actually stop and analyze their own needs.

Thank you for the kind words. This forum has been extremely helpful.

I feel less crazy now... Because my plan was to have 2 radial arm saws on a work bench, with one being used for dado cuts and crosscuts, and one with a special guard for rip cuts. It seems that when you combine 2 radial arm saws or 2 table saws together, it doesn't actually require any additional space. Once you put them right next to each other, you aren't actually increasing the overall "footprint" in your garage?

I have a beautiful 1" thick piece of very expensive solid hardwood real Birch plywood, about 19" wide and 5 feet long, and it's the strongest wood I've ever seen. I didn't understand how strong real plywood is when I ordered it for a commercial building at work. I'm thinking about using it to make a radial arm station.

My plan is to make a radial arm saw into an extremely safe ripping saw. I want to do this, because it's not supposed to be possible. I know you did it! But I want to try to make it safe for small hand held cuts, of small, short boards. I think that the radial arm saw allows more options for a custom blade guard, because the design has some advantages. The blade guard can be removed in seconds, and replaced with a totally different one. Simply having custom guards, would allow much increased safety.

And as you mentioned, on a table saw, you can't have the splitter on when doing dado cuts. But on a radial arm saw, you can do partial dado cuts with a full guard, that completely encloses the work piece!

I'm having trouble deciding which 2 radial arm saws I want to use.... I found yet another one that I am going to pickup tomorrow for $50. It's one of the solid cast iron Craftsman saws, which apparently were only made in the early 1970's, before being switched to all cast aluminum in the late 1970's. I wasn't sold on the idea of having solid cast iron, but I also found out that the cast iron models have a 14.50" crosscut versus a 13.50" crosscut, which is a big difference!

If anyone knows if these solid "cast iron" Craftsman radial arm saws are better, please let me know. The part I like about them, is that the top of made from sheet steel, not a "glued" on piece of aluminum sheet metal like on my 1978 saw. I don't think the cords can be replaced on the 1978 saw, because the beauty cover on top is glued on (I think).

The saw I found, going to get it tomorrow. I already picked up one for free, but only the motor is worth salvaging, because it's so rusty. This one looks a lot nicer. (Note, the cast iron Craftsman also has the power switch in the right location, on the handle).








Example of one of these cast iron saws:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> WOW! Your shop is so beautiful! The 3 saws is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I love it!
> 
> I'm not a fan of people doing the same thing as everyone else, and being incredibly boring. Innovation is what men do best, and every man should be thinking outside the box, to make something new and different. There's nothing worse than seeing someone who has worked with tools and projects their whole life, and every project was for their boss.
> 
> ...


I am not aware of any aluminum radial arm saws made by Craftsman. There are two version of the column support, however. One is continuous from base to top, the other is a two piece held together by about 5 bolts. I own both versions and don't find any structural difference.

Now that you are "collecting" RASs like me, here's what I have discovered.
I found that the carriage, yuoke and motor assemblies are interchangeable from 10" to 12" and from saw to saw, completely!
The best saw is one where the power cord in NOT run trough the inside of the arm, rather is separate and attached to the switch.
This makes it far easier to swap out the carriages.








Why would you want to do that?
Well, you can set up a carriage with a stacked dado, another with a rip blade and guard, another with a 60 tooth crosscut blade, and if you have a machine shop like me, make a radial arm router on another carriage. When you can buy and entire saw for $50.00 you can almost get as many as you want.









I made a 2 axis panel saw using a 10" radial arm saw carriage because it has a 90 degree lock for crosscutting and for ripping.








Panel saw







www.woodworkingtalk.com













My background is Industrial Design MFA, and I designed a 3 wheel bandsaw for a Master's project:
The blade tilts rather than the table, so your work doesn't slide off during your cuts:









It's a total mockup, using some actual bearings and guides, polished water pipe, welded steel base with leveling screws, a brass tube and aluminum end cap for a motor and Masonite covers for the internals. The table was aluminum sheet glued to plywood base with aluminum channels set in dados. It looked like it was solid aluminum. The table height was controlled by a hydraulic cylinder using the black round knob.









I made two different length of polished pipe to give the illusion of different heights.
I Aced that class and all my othe ID classes.
I made a full size running prototype of a "world car" using a shortened F250 Ford pickup truck. I bent all the metal parts in a classmates grain bin factory his dad owned:









I thought a rear engine would be better, so I used a 4 wheel drive transfer case to make a "V" drive. It would do wheelies on command!


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I picked up a 1975 Craftsman 113-231-00 cast iron radial arm saw today for $50. The motor sounds great, and it has all the pieces, and nothing is broken.

Yes, it was obviously a terrible idea bringing home another radial arm saw. But I needed to have a good clean example to compare the "cast iron" version to the newer "cast aluminum" version. There are so many rumors and fake stories about these "junky Craftsman saws from Sears" that I decided do my own side by side comparison with properly restored saws, to see how they actually differ.

My initial thoughts are, all of the Craftsman saws are really good, and only some were "lemons" due to improper alignment from the factory, or from neglect. In every case when I find a negative article, there is no mention of any tuning or repairs that are done.

In testing, my 1978 factory original saw cuts like a laser beam, with absolutely no saw marks on the wood, and even less "runout" on the motor than my Grizzly table saw.

The 1978 saw is all aluminum, except for the 2" diameter central rod inside the rear column. I just checked with a magnet, and the entire split column is made from solid cast aluminum. The entire arm on top is made from cast aluminum, and the bearing plate that slides is also aluminum. The yolk is cast aluminum, and the handle is cast aluminum. There is very little steel or cast iron on the 1978 Craftsman saw.

On the 1975 saw, *the entire saw is cast iron,* including the rear one piece column, the top arm, the bearing plate that slides. But the yolk is cast aluminum on the 1975 saw as well.

Someone claimed in a post I read today that the saws with the steel rods "wiggle" because the grooves that hold the rods aren't "machined." I don't believe this to be true, and I think it's a poor excuse for user error in having a saw that isn't properly tuned.

I may switch permanently to the new "cast iron" version, because none of the parts are glued on. It just bugs me that I wasn't able to figure out how to take the 1978 saw apart, because the top cover is "permanently" fastened, so I couldn't change the power cord.

*Some benefits of the older saw (in my opinion only):*

-Cast iron arm, and carriage support plate. Cast iron solid one piece rear tube, not a split tube.
-Miter angle gauge on top of the back of the saw is a big thick piece of cast aluminum, not plastic.
-The cast iron model has the power switch in the correct location, near your operating hand, not out in the middle of nowhere at the end of the arm like all of the Dewalt and newer Craftsman.
-The top cover is made out of steel sheet metal, versus super thin aluminum.
-The miter gauge for bevel cuts is a beautiful piece of aluminum, riveted on.
-The stop for locking the carriage for rip cuts has a 5/16" screw instead of a 1/4" screw. On the newer saw, you have to really tighten the lock screw firmly or the carriage will still slide.
-The cast iron saw has the power cord entirely exposed on the outside of the saw, so it can be easily removed and upgraded.
-The power switch and power cord are basically impossible to replace on the newer saw, without removing the glued on top cover.
-Both saws have the identical motor, an 11 amp 120v motor or 5.5 amps at 220v.

The shear complexity, all the machining and alignment that is required, would make one of these saws VERY expensive today. Which is why modern radial arm saws sell for $4,500.

I'm almost 100% certain that at some point, these saws will be considered extremely valuable, as there won't be anymore of them left. People are just throwing them away and leaving them outdoors to rust.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I’m lost on this topic..

you wasted good money on another Craftsman?


----------



## rogerh (Sep 13, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> I’m lost on this topic..
> 
> you wasted good money on another Craftsman?


I have to ask, how much money, have you wasted on a Craftsman?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

In the early 80' about $50 and a miter saw I replaced many years ago. All together around $125. . I guess they get me for all but $10 in woodworking tools. . Mechanic tools, lots.. I still have the dowel jig from the 80's.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Haven't had a chance to respond to the other posts above yet. Been working and working in the garage after work.

I finished installing the 2 new motor ball bearings on each end of the armature on the 1978 Craftsman radial arm saw. I also purchased a new start capacitor for no reason, and figured it was worth replacing. Start capacitors seem to rarely go bad, but it was only $12 for a new capacitor.

-Replaced the motor bearings with upgraded full contact seal, sealed on both sides bearings, called "LLU" bearings. Part # *NTN 6203 LLU standard clearance 15.875 size*.
-Also used low clearance bearings called "standard clearance." These bearings are as tight as possible without seizing up from heat expansion. Many standard motor bearings are "loose" to provide greater tolerance to heat cycles, and they are called "C4 bearings."
-It was very difficult to find the more precise "standard clearance" bearings. Most of the bearings online are "C4" loose bearings.
-Sprayed the entire capacitor start centrifugal linkage and springs with a heavy layer of dry Teflon spray (not the fiber disc part).
-Used a tiny buffer wheel to remove rust on the armature shaft.
-Sprayed one layer of clear coat spray on the entire armature and the shaft (not on the bearing surfaces).
-Replaced start capacitor with 124-149uF 165 volt rated capacitor.
-Replaced the bearings by applying oil to the shaft, then lightly hammering them on with a small hollow pipe and various sockets. Only one side was pressed on, the accessory side of the armature.
-On the arbor side of the electric motor, the bearing isn't pressed on, it slides on with gentle force, and is held in place by hammering the roll pin back into the arbor threaded hub. Just to be safe, I placed a heavy layer of red thread locker on the armature shaft on the blade side of the motor, so the motor shaft could not possibly "spin" inside the bearing. Later, I realized that the red thread locker is probably not necessary, since the pinned arbor nut "squeezes" tight up against the motor bearing.
-The pressed on nut must be aligned properly, and oiling the armature shaft is necessary because you have to adjust the nut over until the holes line up, so you can then pound the roll pin back in. Aligning this hole for the roll pin was pretty difficult, because the nut is pressed on, and it doesn't rotate very easily. Using 2 blade nuts on the arbor allowed me to hold the motor armature so I could rotate the pressed on nut. You could clamp the armature in a wooden vice or use wood blocks in your vice.
-The motor case is glued together with epoxy, to prevent rattling. I used a wire wheel to rough up the old epoxy. Then I applied a very thick layer of high temperature automotive gasket silicone to the mating surfaces at the 8 corners of the cases. In my experience, automotive silicone is the best permanent adhesive there is and I knew it would form a permanent bond to prevent the motor end caps moving around.
-When I put it all back together, I realized that there are 2 tiny retaining bolts that hold the arbor bearing tight inside the arbor side of the motor case. These threaded clips are only 3/4" long and 1/8" in diameter, and there is literally no way to install them once the motor is assembled. Fortunately I was able to tape these clips to some wire, then finesse them into their respective holes.
-After getting the motor back together, mounting it on the saw, I realized that the slide bearings on my saw are actually a little on the loose side. So the next project is figuring out how to tighten the slide bearings or replace them with lower clearance bearings.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Have you thought about starting another thread ?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> Haven't had a chance to respond to the other posts above yet. Been working and working in the garage after work.
> 
> I finished installing the 2 new motor ball bearings on each end of the armature on the 1978 Craftsman radial arm saw. I also purchased a new start capacitor for no reason, and figured it was worth replacing. Start capacitors seem to rarely go bad, but it was only $12 for a new capacitor.
> 
> ...


The "slide bearings" are what I call "V" groove on all my radial arm saws. I got my extras from Ebay a long while back.








Carriage Bearings 63777 for Craftsman 10” Radial Arm Saw 113.196321 Set of 4 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Carriage Bearings 63777 for Craftsman 10” Radial Arm Saw 113.196321 Set of 4 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I can start a new thread soon, once I get my radial arm saws setup for daily operation. I want to make a thread focusing on rip cutting, table design, fences, adjustments, etc.

The pictures and information on this thread may be helpful in the future for people who are trying to repair their saw, or buy a used RAS saw. I still believe RAS saws will have a resurgence, and will become popular again. My reason for believing this is simple. Radial arm saws are currently massively undervalued, compared to other tools. For their complexity and original MSRP cost, they should be treated with more respect and not left out in the backyard to rust. 

Probably 80% of the original radial arm saws will be ruined, due to people leaving them outdoors in the rain. Table saws don't seem to be treated like a "useless obsolete relic." A lot of radial arm saws I've seen are so beat up, it's almost like people have intentionally tried to destroy them. 

Imagine when you can't find a radial arm saw on the local ads for $50, and they've all been turned into scrap metal. At that point, you might see Milwaukee or Dewalt actually start making a new lightweight aluminum and plastic radial arm saw with modern safety features, and a motor brake, and some type of portable jobsite stand. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see consumer grade radial arm saws make a return. It would basically be like releasing a "new" tool that nobody has ever seen, and so it would create a lot of interest. 

Here is a modern "King" brand radial arm saw. Notice the really nice kerf splitter and anti-kickback pawls on the rod. A stronger, more rigid kerf splitter, would have prevented many of the horror stories of bad kickbacks. Note: The radial arm saw appears to still be in daily use in some industrial facilities.











Rebelwork said:


> Have you thought about starting another thread ?


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

supermuble said:


> I can start a new thread soon, once I get my radial arm saws setup for daily operation. I want to make a thread focusing on rip cutting, table design, fences, adjustments, etc.
> 
> The pictures and information on this thread may be helpful in the future for people who are trying to repair their saw, or buy a used RAS saw. I still believe RAS saws will have a resurgence, and will become popular again. My reason for believing this is simple. Radial arm saws are currently massively undervalued, compared to other tools. For their complexity and original MSRP cost, they should be treated with more respect and not left out in the backyard to rust.
> 
> ...


I doubt that will ever happen for liability issues. We had one donated to the senior center wood shop, I was happy but it was removed the next day because of OSHA, to say I was pissed would be a mild statement because I would have taken it home as a spare. It takes a lot of experience and common sense to properly use them.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I would tend to agree because of the safety issues "inherent" with the amount of exposed blade AND the tendency of the saw to "self feed" when used with the positive rake blades, there will never be a renewed interest in manufacturing the home shop versions of the radial arm saw. The production versions 14" and up, have their industrial applications and are used by the pros, so more experienced operators and probably OSHA safety equipped machines.
Unfortunately, the RAS does crosscut longer and heavier planks to length better than any other machine that I'm aware of, but also will do well on the smaller sections like moldings. When they disappear from the back of the Home Depot stores we will know it's now "history".

I've seen only a few saws where the blade is mounted horizontally in industrial applications, I think in Asian countries. There may be some here in the USA, I donno?

There's a circular saw that is rarely seen anywhere these days, the Cuz-D flush cut saw:


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Cuz-D+circular+saw


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The title says "Best radial arm saw to buy" and I may have found it!
Auto feed and air clamp hold down, what's left to do manually? "Look Mom, No hands!"


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

The best maybe, for production work not for general work, To many settings and switches, he was going back a forth changing things and I didn't find that exact model but from what I have seen for OMGA the price range is $6,000-16,000


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

redeared said:


> The best maybe, for production work not for general work, To many settings and switches, he was going back a forth changing things and I didn't find that exact model but from what I have seen for OMGA the price range is $6,000-16,000


I doubt it's on anyone's Christmas list on the forum.

Never know, it might end up on someone's lottery list..


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Hah, I just want to turn it on make a cut, plain and simple, and what I noticed was that there where no rip cut lines.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I think Sears/Craftsman made an electronic RAS and there was also some that had a self retracting carriage?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154755292384?hash=item2408225ce0:g:pw4AAOSwSdthT3UMhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/264632497642?hash=item3d9d5375ea:g:eek:SsAAOSwrpReRI2t


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

So I found a 1962 Dewalt Powershop 1400 cast iron radial arm saw. It has a solid cast iron arm, and machined bearing grooves on the arm, and it also has an electroplated main column that cannot rust (this is a major benefit). It is a 10 amp motor, and I think the motor has a partial electric brake like the newer 7770, but I could be wrong.

The guy is going to sell it to me for $40. This is a saw that is being sold today, refurbished from the original cast iron, and sold as a "new" saw by "The Original Saw Company" for about $4,500. (Verify this, as I could be making up fake stories).

Without doing multiple side by side comparisons, it's still not clear if there is any significant difference in quality in the old Dewalt saws, or the new ones. Or if the Craftsman saws are inherently less precise.

I am steering away from the really old "round arm" Dewalt saws because they look too old, they have no miter gauge angle or bevel angle gauge, the power switch is not on the front of the saw, they are way too expensive in rough condition, and they have no automatic motor brake.

I don't particularly like the Powershop 1400, which looks nearly identical to the model 925 or the 7790. The angular cast iron arm looks stupid. But the front switch panel is beautiful and very heavy duty, and the saw has a really nice looking miter gauge angle scale near the rear height adjustment handle. The saw also has the newer style motor, with an enclosed capacitor, not an external capacitor.

I included 2 photos of a very beautiful restored model 7790 saw that has the factory finish on the rear column!


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

To further illustrate my point that radial arm saws have a lot of fake misinformation, see video.
I noticed when doing research that most of the so called "Facts" about radial arm saws, are nothing more than second hand rumors.

There is a common belief that a "push cut" is just not possible on a radial arm saw, and it cannot be done. See video. Also, this man is brave! 

Disclaimer: This is not safe! Use clamps!


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

supermuble said:


> To further illustrate my point that radial arm saws have a lot of fake misinformation, see video.
> I noticed when doing research that most of the so called "Facts" about radial arm saws, are nothing more than second hand rumors.
> 
> *There is a common belief that a "push cut" is just not possible on a radial arm saw, and it cannot be done. See video. Also, this man is brave!*


Push cuts are certainly "possible" but are not "safer" than pull cuts because when the blade first enters the work, the upward spinning teeth want to lift it off the table for a few seconds. You must use a firm downward pressure to resist this force or bad things may happen. Owners manuals advise against a push cut for that reason.
What is confusing to me and most woodworkers, is that a sliding miter saw is similar in operation as the radial arm saw, but that saw will safely crosscut using the push method.


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

Did you happen to see the video I posted? If you haven't watched it yet, buckle your seat belt. It's hard to stomach the video. Very nerve racking!

It would appear (from this one single video, that the wood doesn't "lift" and go flying quite as easily as people have been led to believe.) The physics is clearly not fully understood by the general community. Clearly there is more going on that appears at first glance. The teeth are pushing down, as well as lifting up at the same time. It doesn't really make sense, and almost seems like a trick.

That's the problem with the radial arm saw. People tend to come up with their own "theories" based on just looking at the saw, and not doing any actual tests or research. The actual results of operations are different than the rumors and myths.

On a sliding miter saw, you can observe that it takes very little pressure to prevent the material from rotating. That pressure can be applied very easily with the slightest pressure of your hand on the material, provided that the material is pressed tightly against the rear fence, so it doesn't have any room to twist. 

When speaking about radial arm saws, there seems to be a myth that you can't perform a push cut, with the reason being that the pressure required to prevent "twisting" and flying of the material is so great that you can't possibly hold the board down. Obviously this is irrational, and doesn't make sense.

The main problem with a push cut is that it is really awkward on a typical radial arm saw, due to the way it is engineered, and the position of the fence. With a pull cut, the saw blade is safely parked behind the fence before you make your cut.




woodnthings said:


> Push cuts are certainly "possible" but are not "safer" than pull cuts because when the blade first enters the work, the upward spinning teeth want to lift it off the table for a few seconds. You must use a firm downward pressure to resist this force or bad things may happen. Owners manuals advise against a push cut for that reason.
> What is confusing to me and most woodworkers, is that a sliding miter saw is similar in operation as the radial arm saw, but that saw will safely crosscut using the push method.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

II did watch the video, and "I think the guy is an idiot" for not even holding the workpiece. Maybe a different piece of wood would react in a different way? It is fairly cupped, at least it appears that way. I would not use the saw in that manner.

I own about 4 radial arms saws and I've used them for about 35 years. I own two sliding miter saws a 12" Dewalt and a 10" Bosch and I've used them for about 20 years.
I have no misconceptions about how they work, how to use them or the physics involved, having posted about them for as many years as I've been here.
Firm pressure is all that's needed with a push cut, but it's not excessive.
The positive rake blade makes the issue more apparent, I know because that's all I've ever used, but I don't use a push cut on a radial arm saw.
I have a zero hook blade for my main RAS, I just haven't installed it yet, as the 60 tooth Diablo works just fine for my crosscuts.
I have no control over how others use their saw, I can only give my experiences.
Yes, there are myths and a lot of false info presented about RASs by people who used them years ago or never used one and just repeated the opinions of others.
At some point I should just stop giving my opinion/advice and this is that point.
Good Luck with your efforts.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

its easy to see why they have been replaced…


----------



## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Rebelwork said:


> The owner of Withrow Cabinets out here lost his r0thinmb running raised panels on a open head shaper. He was running the crown on a panel that was cupped. He said he new it was cupped but tried to for pcecot down and it kicked.
> 
> This is a tough business to be in. When your on this equipment 8 hours a day the risks are greater...


I was LEO for 32 years. I was more concerned working in shops than working on the street. Funny, nobody ever "thanks you for your service" for doing time in a shop...lol


----------



## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Of course it can cut that way, I don't. A number of dumb things about that video was the stock just was laying there. I always have a hand on the stock and remove the cut pieces before the next cut


----------



## supermuble (Nov 6, 2021)

I think it's important to actually give credit to others when they offer information and ideas. If someone is going to do an unsafe experiment, we should use the experiment to learn from!

I've never seen anything like that video, and found it interesting. I don't think anyone using a radial arm saw has ever completed that experiment before, cutting a board forward without any pressure on it, and while warped, and while "loosely" sitting against the fence, AND while using a sharp positive hook blade, and pushing the blade super fast into the wood.

Our understanding (the general consensus) is that the board should have went flying, or at least locked up the blade, due to binding. It's not really clear how the cut didn't produce any forward kickback at all, considering how haphazard the cut was. 

Videos like that are important because you'd never be stupid enough to try to do that experiment yourself, and so it's helpful to see.





woodnthings said:


> II did watch the video, and "I think the guy is an idiot" for not even holding the workpiece. Maybe a different piece of wood would react in a different way? It is fairly cupped, at least it appears that way. I would not use the saw in that manner.
> 
> I own about 4 radial arms saws and I've used them for about 35 years. I own two sliding miter saws a 12" Dewalt and a 10" Bosch and I've used them for about 20 years.
> I have no misconceptions about how they work, how to use them or the physics involved, having posted about them for as many years as I've been here.
> ...


----------

