# Ridgid r4512 vs SawStop JobSite Pro & Contractor



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I was thinking to save money to go with a Ridgid r4512 because I heard it was a good saw to go with for the money (cast iron top / cast iron / has wheels, etc..).

However I'm concerned about my digits and well was thinking about getting the JobSite Pro Sawstop instead. 

I'm just wondering if the SawStop JobSite Pro cuts would be as accurate as the Ridgid r4512. And what if I made a solid stand for the JobSite Pro, would that help with the vibrations and what not improving the cuts? 

How does the Ridgid r4512 compare to the SawStop Contractor saw? (base model without the T-glide).

EDIT: I'm a newbie woodworker. I'd like cuts accurate enough to say make a chessboard if I wanted.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

woodgeekess said:


> I was thinking to save money to go with a Ridgid r4512 because I heard it was a good saw to go with for the money (cast iron top / cast iron / has wheels, etc..).
> 
> However I'm concerned about my digits and well was thinking about getting the JobSite Pro Sawstop instead.
> 
> ...


Accurately calibrated and with a good blade installed, any of the saws you mentioned will make a fine chessboard. 

I am concerned about my digits because I work on computers, play musical instruments, and I need help remembering the number that comes after "nine." 

I had a Bosch REAXX jobsite saw, which has a safety mechanism like a SawStop. (SawStop sued them over patents and they are no longer available in the US.) I replaced it with a SawStop PCS-175 cabinet saw. 

The drawbacks of a jobsite saw are:
* Short lead-in distance from the front of the saw to the blade.
* Aluminum top is not as smooth, and it scratches and dents easily. 
* Typically, fences are not as good as the ones that come on larger saws.

The new SawStop Jobsite Pro saw has a 2 inch longer lead-in distance, an improved T-track style fence, and better dust collection, along with other minor changes. Those differences (especially the lead-in distance) make it worth the higher cost over the old SawStop jobsite saw. They would have to discount the old saw a lot more before I might consider it over the new one. A LOT more. 

I have not used the Ridgid 4512, but it gives a lot of saw features and capability for the money. Ask others about the fence to see if they like it. I imagine that it cuts "better" than any jobsite saw, just because of its size, the nice beautiful flat cast iron top, and more. By "better", I mean less effort to set up and line up an accurate cut than a jobsite saw, with more consistent results. Everything would be smoother and easier, including the cut itself.

I would not consider a table saw without a safety mechanism. The huge loss caused by one slip or mistake in terms of pain, grief, and finances is worth the cost of the "insurance" penalty that you must pay up front to buy a SawStop, in my opinion. I know enough really good woodworkers who are missing pieces of themselves, not removed by elective surgery. I am not arrogant enough to think that I will _never_ make a mistake over decades of woodworking. That's me. 

Others argue that you must follow good safety practices regardless of which saw you use, and that is the path to avoid injury. They are right. I acknowledge and respect their points, but feel that we are all human, and mistakes happen. I respectfully disagree on the path to achieve adequate safety, and we go back and forth here often. _I want you to know that not everyone agrees with my opinion about table saw safety mechanisms._ 

Table saw safety mechanisms won't protect you against kickback, either. You can be seriously injured by a kickback from a SawStop saw just like any other table saw. 

I replaced the Bosch REAXX jobsite saw with a SawStop PCS-175 cabinet saw. Considerations included storage space and mobility. It turns out that the SawStop cabinet saw has a smaller footprint for storage than their contractor saw. The contractor saw has a motor hanging off the back, so it stands further from the wall when stored.

If you buy a SawStop cast iron saw, get the 36 inch T-glide fence, not the 30 inch fence. If you get the cabinet saw, buy the Industrial Mobile Base for mobility. It is far superior to their simple mobile base and it is so worth the high extra cost. 

If you are on a tight budget, I understand the temptations of buying the Ridgid 4512 over a SawStop Jobsite Pro saw. Because of my feelings about safety, I would buy the SawStop anyway, but most people would recommend the Ridgid, and they would be equally right. One consideration might be whether you have children or others who might use the saw someday. It is a personal decision. 

If you have the money, a SawStop cast iron saw with a T-glide fence is a joy to use. But then you face the same decision - there are many excellent contractor and cabinet table saws from many manufacturers, for less money than their SawStop equivalents. Also consider "oldies but goodies" - the old cast iron saws of the past are practically indestructible and cut well, but lack many safety features. 

Good luck!


----------



## regesullivan (Jan 26, 2007)

I've been using a R4512 for 6-7 years. It's worked very well for me. That said, there are some pretty poor reviews. I've heard many complaints about the fence system and frankly, it could be better. If you're not careful when locking the fence it can lock in a little cockeyed. After a few times being out of square a bit on a cut I realized what I was doing and got in the habit of pushing the fence tight to the rail before locking it in place. It's hard to beat for the money and certainly a capable saw for a small home shop.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Please let me be very harsh and pointed.

The cost of a Ridgid r4512 plus one ER visit is about the same as the cost of a SawStop. The choice is yours. 

That is coming from someone that absolutely detests the marketing and sales tactics of the inventor of the flesh sensing saw. 

I've has three saws over the last almost 50 years. Each one was to be the last one I ever bought. A 1970s Craftsman RAS, a Jet Contractor and a Delta UniSaw. If the situation ever arises for me to buy a new saw, it will be a SawStop. (You can't imagine how much it pains me to say that.)


----------



## Red5hft (Dec 20, 2018)

*No contest*

There just isn't any other decision about a table saw. Saw Stop. Period. I have seen many hand injuries from table saw accidents. They are all devastating and lifelong. You are worth the extra $600 to get the best. (I have been using table saws for 40+ years. Accident free. Bought a Saw Stop. Then one day.....it saved my hand. Forever a proponent of their saws). And if that isn't enough, if you ever do have an accident, Saw Stop will replace your cartridge for free. Just call them.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

P.S. I bought a SawStop. You saw my post, one of the three posts above recommending a SawStop.

-> I want to add that I agree 100% with the others about SawStop marketing and sales tactics. In addition, I detest and oppose their political activities.

SawStop has been continually lobbying the US government to impose regulations requiring that all table saws sold in the US have safety mechanisms. Because they hold the patents, it would give them a very strong, effective monopoly on table saws. They failed to lobby Congress to pass legislation, so their new tactic has been to convince the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) to impose mandatory regulations on table saw safety, to give them the monopoly they want.

Dr. Steve Gass is the original inventor and patent holder. I do not know the full story, but I have been told that he tried to negotiate licensing arrangements with the other table saw manufacturers, but the price per saw was so onerous that no manufacturer could agree to the pricing terms. Steve Gass could not come to any kind of reasonable arrangement that would have seen his technology widely deployed across all table saws. I note that table saws have many safety mechanisms in common - riving knives, blade guards, anti-kickback pawls, to name a few. Why not blade touch sensing and retraction?

A direct result of not negotiating any kind of deal has been vast numbers of table saw injuries. Each one of those life-altering injuries could have been prevented with a deal in place. There is nothing illegal about it. The patent belongs to Steve Gabs, and it is his to license under whatever terms he wants. Nevertheless, I question the morality of someone so greedy that they could not find a way to negotiate in good faith, and find terms acceptable to all, that would prevent such injuries. I feel sad whenever I see the results of those injuries, injuries that could have been so easily prevented. 

The hypocrisy of failing to negotiate a deal and then trying to use the government to bully and club the other manufacturers into submission (or face the loss of the entire table saw market) is appalling, and reveals the true feelings of SawStop's founder. He isn't about saving people from injury. He doesn't care about people or their life-altering injuries per se. His sole focus is maximizing the money he can extract from his invention. It is his right, but that doesn't make it right.

_(Having written the above, I still recommend SawStop. Their table saws are superb - they cut with ease and precision, and they can prevent a life-altering injury. Yes, you pay a lot for that insurance, but you would pay a lot more for an injury, and even after you are done, you may be scarred for life. For those reasons alone, I recommend SawStop, while still detesting and opposing their patent licensing and government-relations policies.)_


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I also detest what Steven Gass tried to pull off, it was nothing more than a money grab. I also am getting rather tired of the scare tactics he and those that drank his cool-aide have instilled in the woodworking community. I come from a family where many members are involved in woodworking and construction, table saws have been used by them for decades without one serious life altering accident, touch wood.

Should someone buy a SawStop, by all means if they think it is the way to go, will they be involved in a serious injury if they don't, probably not if they observe the same safety precautions they give to the other machines in their shop.


----------



## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

What has made the situation worse is SawStop seems to have patented the “idea” of flesh sensing technology, keeping other approaches to the same problem from competing in the United States. Bosch has developed their own flesh sensing technology but they aren’t allowed to compete in the United states because it wasn’t their idea, even though it isn’t the same technology and doesn’t ruin your blade.

Could you imagine how that would have held back competition in so many areas over the years, to the detriment of our country.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

FrankC said:


> I also detest what Steven Gass tried to pull off, it was nothing more than a money grab. I also am getting rather tired of the scare tactics he and those that drank his cool-aide have instilled in the woodworking community. I come from a family where many members are involved in woodworking and construction, table saws have been used by them for decades without one serious life altering accident, touch wood.
> 
> Should someone buy a SawStop, by all means if they think it is the way to go, will they be involved in a serious injury if they don't, probably not if they observe the same safety precautions they give to the other machines in their shop.


This is a perfect example of someone who disagrees with my point of view about SawStop's safety mechanism. @FrankC feels that the extra cost of SawStop "insurance" is not worth the money, and he feels that by following proper safety practices, you can remain safe and uninjured. Frank is right. SawStop saws are overpriced, and you can live your entire life with a different table saw and not get injured.

With respect, I disagree and say that accidents can happen to the best of us. I argue that the consequences of one mistake can be so severe that the SawStop is worth the extra cost. 

I resent FrankC's comments about "drank his cool-aid". I believe that many of us have a good understanding of the situation, the risks, and the hype. We reached our own independent conclusion. FrankC may not agree with that conclusion, but it is very rude and incorrect to say that we "drank his cool-aid" rather than coming to a rational decision after careful review and due consideration. You can disagree without insulting the other person by implying that they cannot think independently for themselves. 

I sincerely hope that FrankC and his family continue their perfect record of table saw safety for the rest of their lives. I hope that I can do the same and never trigger my SawStop, indirectly proving FrankC right, but at least I know that I have a safety net, just in case.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Terry Q said:


> What has made the situation worse is SawStop seems to have patented the “idea” of flesh sensing technology, keeping other approaches to the same problem from competing in the United States. Bosch has developed their own flesh sensing technology but they aren’t allowed to compete in the United states because it wasn’t their idea, even though it isn’t the same technology and doesn’t ruin your blade.
> 
> Could you imagine how that would have held back competition in so many areas over the years, to the detriment of our country.
> 
> ...


It has happened in other industries, in 1895 George Seldon patented an internal combustion road engine that barely ran and collected royalties from every other gasoline powered vehicle manufacturer until Henry Ford refused to pay him and ended up in a court battle that took years to resolve.

Gass could have made his invention an industry standard by issuing a FRAND patent but he was too greedy to accept a fair and reasonable royalty. Had he done this any manufacturer could voluntarily added his improvement to their saw.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I personally would like it if the Federal Government stepped in a regulated this safety issue, virtually voiding the patent and making it freely available; also requiring all saws have this technology. It's too important. I can't believe they wouldn't let Bosch use their flesh sensing technology, just because it wasn't their idea.. doesn't seem right at all.

Anyways, I am considering getting the SawStop JobSite Pro but I am wondering if it is possible to do very fine woodworking on it despite it being so lightweight? The Ridgid r4512 has a cast iron top and weighs twice as much. I'm just wondering how much better the cuts would be on the Ridgid.. would they be less rough and more accurate due to less vibrations? I am a beginning woodworker and I want to be able to ultimately be able to make anything and wondering if I can get away with the JobSite Pro SawStop. The ripping capacity seems to be fine.. for larger things I can use a sawboard with my circular saw. I mainly want the table saw for all the jigs I can make with it.. like cross cut sled, box joint jig, tennon joints, and other jigs.. so many things one can do with it.. Is the JobSite Pro good enough for most jigs?


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodgeekess said:


> I personally would like it if the Federal Government stepped in a regulated this safety issue, virtually voiding the patent and making it freely available; also requiring all saws have this technology. It's too important. I can't believe they wouldn't let Bosch use their flesh sensing technology, just because it wasn't their idea.. doesn't seem right at all.
> 
> Anyways, I am considering getting the SawStop JobSite Pro but I am wondering if it is possible to do very fine woodworking on it despite it being so lightweight? The Ridgid r4512 has a cast iron top and weighs twice as much. I'm just wondering how much better the cuts would be on the Ridgid.. would they be less rough and more accurate due to less vibrations? I am a beginning woodworker and I want to be able to ultimately be able to make anything and wondering if I can get away with the JobSite Pro SawStop. The ripping capacity seems to be fine.. for larger things I can use a sawboard with my circular saw. I mainly want the table saw for all the jigs I can make with it.. like cross cut sled, box joint jig, tennon joints, and other jigs.. so many things one can do with it.. Is the JobSite Pro good enough for most jigs?


The Jobsite saw is what it says it is, a saw that is portable enough to take to a construction site.

It was never intended to be a workshop saw, you can use it but there will be limitations, particularly the small table area. 

Woodworking is a hobby with many sharp things that can do damage, it is up to you to educate yourself about safety, no legislation or gadgets will protect you as well as good work habits.

At the last place I worked there were more man hours lost due to Exacto knife cuts than machine injuries.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I have educated myself about table saw safety. I've watched probably a dozen different videos on it. I'm aware of what I need to do and would feel confident with the Ridgid r4512.. however I still worry about some unforeseen accident, like a slip or passing out etc.


----------



## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

Wood working safety is important. There are numerous tools and pieces of equipment that will, if given the opportunity, injure you. Table saws may lead the list in number of accidents because they are used by more people more frequently. One of the worst accidents I seen was done using a miter saw. Guy lost most of his thumb and index finger. Most dangerous job site I worked on was because of distractions. It was a remodel of a restaurant with floor to ceiling windows facing a busy walkway full of tourists during summertime. After the third guy got injured in only a few days on the project we convinced the job super to let us cover the windows with craft paper. 

With that said if I could afford a sawstop I would get one. I can’t so I have a Ridgid r4512. I’m a casual hobbyist and the saw does everything I need it to. It might be the most dangerous tool I own. I don’t know. I do know I probably have come closer to injuring myself on my lathe than on my saw. More reading. More videos. Understand the tool and the dangers it presents better. Better awareness. Better safety.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I can give you some tips .....*



woodgeekess said:


> I have educated myself about table saw safety. I've watched probably a dozen different videos on it. I'm aware of what I need to do and would feel confident with the Ridgid r4512.. however I still worry about some unforeseen accident, like a slip or passing out etc.



As someone who has owned every type of table saw from a contractor belt drive, to a job site, to a full blown 5 HP cabinet saw, here's what I would advise that you get or do:


The throat plate that surrounds the blade should be a zero clearance. no gaps around the blade. There are You Tubes on how to make them. Make one and paint it red. This is now the "danger zone" where no hands or fingers are allowed! ... at least until you have 10 years experience...... :surprise2:



The riving knife or splitter that supports the blade guard does two important safety functions. It will maintain the rear of the workpiece lightly against the fence so it can't rotate around up and over the spinning blade causing a kickback. It will also prevent the kerf you just cut from closing up on the rear of the blade causing the saw to stall out OR causing you to use additional feed pressure which is not a good idea. :sad2:
http://www.raygirling.com/kickback.htm





You need a proper push shoe to apply downward and forward feed pressure simultaneously. You should always use a push shoe when the distance between the blade and the fence is less than a hands width. I have about 5 different push shoes, some of with are only 1/4" wide. I use them routinely when ripping narrow pieces. It is a different animal than a push "stick".... :|



You need a proper outfeed support table to catch all the off fall and workpieces after the cuts are finished. Do not reach around or over a spinning blade to catch any loose pieces! It will also support large and heavy sheet good so you can safely and accurately cut them without a helper.


Ripping and crosscutting are completely different operations and require different approaches. An extended 20" fence of 4" tall by 3/4' thick wood screwed to the face of the miter gauge is a must. Dimensions can vary from those slightly. By cutting right through the wood you know exactly where the cut will be and you can line up your pieces easily to the kerf. A stop block can be clamped to the fence for making duplicate pieces. It's a very handy addition. :smile2:



Ripping a curved board along the fence will result in a curved cut on the off fall. A straight edge ripping guide will eliminate this issue. Jointers are a companion machine to the table saw because they will create a straight edge to register against the fence. If you place a wobbly edge against the fence it may twist and bind causing a kickback. You should never place a twisted or warped board on the table surface for the same reason. A jointer will flatten the face that goes down on the table. So, a flat surface and a straight edge are necessary on the workpiece for safe cuts on the table saw. :|


A complete table saw safety lesson is beyond the scope of my post, but those are some of the basics that have kept me safe for 50 some odd years of using one. :vs_cool:


----------



## red68mgb (Aug 21, 2019)

FWIW - according to Wikipedia, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop]

"The SawStop patents begin to expire in August 2021, with filed extensions this could extend until April 2024 for the early patents. Given that there are about 100 patents, patent protection for this product line may continue for some years."


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

In my experience you should not be allowed to use use a drill bit, they are extremely dangerous.

If you hold a board in your hand supporting it a while you are drilling the hole there is a good possibility you will drill into your hand causing serious injury.

The bits will catch in thin strips of metal spinning them into your hands causing multiple cuts as they fly around.

Ships augers will catch when drilling thin material causing the augers to advance rapidly in an uncontrolled fashion.

Large bits will catch causing the drill to rotate out of control possibly breaking your wrist as you try to control it.

Seriously, what is the answer, we have to drill holes, legislation or common sense?


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> ..
> 
> A complete table saw safety lesson is beyond the scope of my post, but those are some of the basics that have kept me safe for 50 some odd years of using one. :vs_cool:


Thanks for sharing all that. I used what you said as a checklist from what I have learned in the past few days, and you just about covered everything . Yah I feel pretty confident. I know pretty much all the dangers associated with the table saw. 

E.g. I'd never make cross cuts running piece along fence.. I'd use a sled instead (or at least a good miter). I'd never run curved edge along fence, I'd run it through the jointer first. I'd never use without a riving knife if I don't have to (e.g. dado is an exception). I'd use the blade guard (with dust collection) as much as possible. I'd do steady speed feeding the lumber in, no jerking. Plan on getting a Grr-ripper and making some nice push sticks which allow more downward force. Push the wood between the fence and blade pretty much in the middle etc.. I'd make sure to stand to one side being out of the line of the blade in case of some unforeseen kickback.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

FrankC said:


> In my experience you should not be allowed to use use a drill bit, they are extremely dangerous.
> ..


Yeah I realize there are lots of ways to hurt yourself in the workshop. I don't usually like my hands near a drill bit and do clamp things down if I can't be far enough away from it.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Another saw I am looking at is the Delta 36-725. It's $599 at Lowes and they do honor Harbor Freight coupons. I have a 20% off coupon for HF. So with any luck I can get it for $479 plus tax. 

It's similar to the Ridgid r4512, but it has a really nice fence and enough cutting depth to rip a 4 x 4.

This would be $900 cheaper than the SawStop JobSite Pro saw. With that extra money I could buy a nice jointer. Btw, what is the Ridgid r4512 of jointers? Is it possible to get a really nice one for $500?


----------



## red68mgb (Aug 21, 2019)

woodgeekess said:


> Another saw I am looking at is the Delta 36-725. It's $599 at Lowes and they do honor Harbor Freight coupons. I have a 20% off coupon for HF. So with any luck I can get it for $479 plus tax.
> 
> It's similar to the Ridgid r4512, but it has a really nice fence and enough cutting depth to rip a 4 x 4.


I was ready to pull the trigger for that saw at Lowes, but my question about the HF coupon was met with resounding NO. Must be they didn't need the sale. 
BTW, I put in 11 years at HD, and they closed out the sales week on Sundays. So sometimes they got more aggressive on Sunday if they hadn't met sales goals. Not sure, but I heard Lowes week ends on Friday.

I also looked at the Ridgid - do I recall correctly that the Delta has a steel table while the Ridgid has cast iron?


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

From what I’ve seen in the review videos it is cast iron top and stamped steel wings, same as r4512. Specifications also say it’s cast iron top. Interesting about Lowe’s and HD, I’ll have to try on those days then!


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodgeekess said:


> Thanks for sharing all that. I used what you said as a checklist from what I have learned in the past few days, and you just about covered everything . Yah I feel pretty confident. I know pretty much all the dangers associated with the table saw.


All I can say after reading the above is to be careful, over confidence can have serious consequences.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

FrankC said:


> ..............Seriously, what is the answer....... legislation or common sense?


Apparently, common sense does not prevail, otherwise there would be no need for legislation. Step out of woodworking for a minute and look at the death toll climbing Mt. Everest. They have jocks or wanna-be jocks
climbing Everest that have never climbed in their life - Common Sense? Woodworking is potentially dangerous, just some of us have more potential than others.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Tony B said:


> Apparently, common sense does not prevail, otherwise there would be no need for legislation. Step out of woodworking for a minute and look at the death toll climbing Mt. Everest. They have jocks or wanna-be jocks
> climbing Everest that have never climbed in their life - Common Sense? Woodworking is potentially dangerous, just some of us have more potential than others.


Unfortunately these days common sense is often not used in legislation either.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

FrankC said:


> All I can say after reading the above is to be careful, over confidence can have serious consequences.


Overconfidence is an issue of course. Lack of confidence is also a a problem. I believe I have the right amount of confidence. I'm a very careful person.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A few more things ....*



woodgeekess said:


> Thanks for sharing all that. I used what you said as a checklist from what I have learned in the past few days, and you just about covered everything . Yah I feel pretty confident. I know pretty much all the dangers associated with the table saw.
> 
> E.g. I'd never make cross cuts running piece along fence.. I'd use a sled instead (or at least a good miter). I'd never run curved edge along fence, I'd run it through the jointer first. I'd never use (a saw)without a riving knife if I don't have to (e.g. dado is an exception). I'd use the blade guard (with dust collection) as much as possible. I'd do steady speed feeding the lumber in, no jerking. Plan on getting a Grr-ripper and making some nice push sticks which allow more downward force. Push the wood between the fence and blade pretty much in the middle etc.. I'd make sure to stand to one side being out of the line of the blade in case of some unforeseen kickback.



Finally .... Use a sharp blade and keep it free from pitch and gum from softwoods. Crosscut blades will have from 50 to 80 teeth. ripping blades will have from 24 to 40 teeth. You need both types.
Diablo by Frued are thin kerf and I use them all the time in every saw from the Craftsman 12" RAS to the 3 table saw monster, Sawzilla. I do not enjoy changing blades and for that reason having a different blade in each saw makes my life easier. A dado set is in the far right hand saw:


----------



## lexadmn (Jan 5, 2018)

I have read all of these comments and agree with much of what is stated. I always enjoy reading what other here have to offer as the knowledge is vast. However, I recommend you buy what you feel comfortable with. If you feel you are not able to follow good, sound, safety practices… perhaps a machine with additional safety features are in your future. You decide as you will be held accountable for your actions.

The documentation that comes with power tools today include good basic safety tips and these should be read an taken seriously. If you feel more safety training and knowledge is required, there is much information within this forum alone, not to mention other Internet resources.
Don’t sell yourself short. Know what you are getting and *KNOW *how to operate it safely.
No one will be forcing safety training on you – you have to go after it.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Safety doesn't feel forced onto me and I have been definitely going after it, probably more than most.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I had been working on this post for several days, and the discussion in this thread has overtaken it. It looks like we're moving towards a compact contractor-type saw with a cast iron top, maybe not a SawStop due to budget constraints. Having said that, I want to share an insight I had about how to describe jobsite saws to budding woodworkers:

_"A jobsite saw is to a cabinet saw, as a laptop is to a desktop computer. Laptops are designed to be small, light, and portable. Everything on a laptop is a compromise - the keyboard, the "mouse", the display, etc. You can do pretty much anything on a laptop that a desktop computer can do, but it may not be as quick, easy, or convenient. 

"Likewise, a jobsite saw is a small, light, portable version of a standard 10 inch table saw. It is set of compromises to allow you to transport the saw from jobsite to jobsite. Can you do fine woodworking on a jobsite saw? Yes. Is it easy? Not necessarily."_

I might add that contractor table saws were the original jobsite saws, designed to be "haul-able" from site to site, hence the name, "contractor saw." They are much closer in function and operation to cabinet table saws and are permanent fixtures in many shops. Lots of skilled woodworkers do fine woodworking without compromise on contractor table saws.

(P.S. I had more to say about the lessons learned and compromises I made to use a jobsite saw for fine woodworking, but we've moved on, so I will save them for the next jobsite saw thread.)


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Not all "job site saws" are created equal ......*

Probably 15 years ago I bought a "high end" Bosch 4100-09 job site saw because I was tired of lugging my Craftsman contractor saw around in my truck. The motor was heavy enough, but the table was worse with extension wings. The Bosch cost was over $500.00 on sale.


This saw has great power, a good fence that locks securely and parallel to the miter slot, and the ON/OFF switch is handy to reach. The right side extension slides out so you can rip a 24" plywood and the fence lock on that as well. The stand was very sturdy, but not on wheels at that time, wheeled versions came later. I was able to cut 1/8" X 1/8" rabbets on the end of laminated flooring easily and accurately. It would also rip 2X PT, not easy for any saw since the wood is typically wet. There is also a rear outfeed support that pulls out if I recall. The table is aluminum and coated with Teflon or other slippery baked on coating. Not terribly durable, but just fine. A quick release blade guard worked fine also. Dust collection has a shop vac port and a shroud around the blade for good collection. 



I would not compare this saw to the cheaper $200.00 + versions out there. :|


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Tool Agnostic, I haven't necessarily moved on, but from what I have been gathering the jobsite saw, even the sawstop, isn't good enough. No one said many positive things about it here. I'd pay the $1399 for a Sawstop JobSite Saw just for the safety, but I don't want a saw that won't make good enough cuts. 

But I am also thinking the hybrid saws I've been mentioning here might be safer than the jobsite saw due to more lead in. Perhaps better cuts because it's easier to control and less kickbacks? 

I don't know really. I've been torn for days now. I really have no clue what to do. I'm not going to spend $4k for a full featured PCS though for sure. It's crazy how expensive this hobby is these days. $100-200 for a precision square.. $1k per Festool hand tool. $700 for a MDF MFT workbench on a wobbly base. Etc..

I am actually starting to think maybe I shouldn't get into this hobby. Because of the expense and risk.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodgeekess said:


> I am actually starting to think maybe I shouldn't get into this hobby. Because of the expense and risk.


You may be overthinking this, bear in mind there are all kinds of people offering advice and freely making suggestions to spend your money, each with a different take on the hobby.

Much very good work has been done with very little, I have always advocated to get the best tools you can afford. 

If this is a hobby there are many ways you can work around with what you have at the beginning, time will dictate where improvements would be desirable and what tools are expendable.

Just step in and get your feet wet.


----------



## red68mgb (Aug 21, 2019)

woodgeekess said:


> I don't know really. I've been torn for days now. I really have no clue what to do. I'm not going to spend $4k for a full featured PCS though for sure. It's crazy how expensive this hobby is these days. $100-200 for a precision square.. $1k per Festool hand tool. $700 for a MDF MFT workbench on a wobbly base. Etc..
> 
> I am actually starting to think maybe I shouldn't get into this hobby. Because of the expense and risk.


It's cheaper than golf and more satisfying. 

I got by with a Ryobi for 20 years. Even then it had a splitter/riving knife, blade guard and anti kickback pawls. Never heard of those tools you mentioned. As the expression goes...I didn't know what I didn't know.


----------



## jgt1942 (Mar 15, 2012)

Go to YouTube and search for "ron paulk sawstop", his videos will answer all of your questions.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I've watched a lot of Ron's videos. I've been thinking about making his workbench or at least use some of his ideas. I want the workbench to also work as an out feed table for my table saw. He is fond of Sawstop Jobsite Pro, but he's required for things to be portable and mostly does just home construction and cabinets. I actually asked him about how the Jobsite Pro compares to a cabinet saw and he said he replied to me and said he only uses portable saws so he can't do a comparison.

If I did go with the Delta 36-725, could I buy an extra set of rails for it if needed.. is it standard metal stock? I am thinking I'd want to cut it down shorter so it isn't so wide. It is massive as is. I only really need about 24" rip capacity I'd think. Certainly no more than 30".


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Accuracy requires stability ......*

The more mass/weight to your saw, the less vibration and more stable it will be, assuming proper setup and proper support whether a mobile base or cabinet. My large saw, Sawzilla, obviously is not moveable, so no need for a mobile base. My other saw is a hybrid Craftsman on casters and a very heavy base from channel steel. It is very stable and smooth operating. 

 




It's my opinion that you can take a job site or contractor type saw and put it on a heavy solid base and it will perform accurately assuming proper setup. *The fence is the heart of the table saw* and if it's not easy to move and lock down accurately repeatedly, you won't be happy and you can't make accurate cuts. Look for a saw with the best possible fence, one that locks only to the front rail, not both.
All fences are not created equal, so do your research first. A Biesemeyer or clone there of is almost an industry standard. I also have several Deltas' Unifences, which unfortunately, are no longer available.
The safety rules apply to all types of table saws in all price ranges.


----------



## red68mgb (Aug 21, 2019)

woodnthings said:


> My other saw is a hybrid Craftsman on casters and a very heavy base from channel steel. It is very stable and smooth operating.


Now that's a beautiful base!! Is is homemade? It certainly doesn't look it.

I've had the shop fox base on my new Grizzly for about a month and have grown to hate it already. Trying to figure out how to improve the non-swivel casters.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*welding and woodworking ....*



red68mgb said:


> Now that's a beautiful base!! Is is homemade? It certainly doesn't look it.
> 
> I've had the shop fox base on my new Grizzly for about a month and have grown to hate it already. Trying to figure out how to improve the non-swivel casters.



If you can weld, as a woodworker you can make things like this mobile base for the shop:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/mother-table-saw-mobile-bases-v-2-a-11756/


:vs_cool:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great article on table saw safety....*



woodgeekess said:


> I have educated myself about table saw safety. I've watched probably a dozen different videos on it. I'm aware of what I need to do and would feel confident with the Ridgid r4512.. however I still worry about some unforeseen accident, like a slip or passing out etc.



I like this article because it covers kickback, saw blade height, underpowered saws and "push sticks" ...etc.
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Tablesaw/tablesaw.htm


The author is an extremely talented woodworker. Look at the other articles on his site!


:vs_cool:


----------



## ChiknNutz (Apr 22, 2011)

red68mgb said:


> Now that's a beautiful base!! Is is homemade? It certainly doesn't look it.
> 
> I've had the shop fox base on my new Grizzly for about a month and have grown to hate it already. Trying to figure out how to improve the non-swivel casters.


I have the Shop Fox base on my bandsaw and loathe it as well. I learned my lesson and bought something else for my table saw. I ended up with the Bora PM-3500 and it is vastly superior, rolls very easy and much better locking scheme. I had to shorten the two longer rails for the table saw, but easy enough with a worm drive and a metal cutting blade.


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Sawstop can't prevent every injury either, just the worst one. I've always maintained kickbacks probably hurt more ww'ers than a hand in the saw blade. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti SawStop in fact if I were buying a new TS I would be a SS, not only for safety feature they are excellent machines. 

Hope this isn't redundant, but @*woodgeek*ness, you are well advised to start out from the beginning focusing on safety SS aside, you can't cut a finger off it you keep your hands away from the blade, right? This should always be foremost in your mind. Before you every make a cut, make some push blocks and learn to use them. 

We don't just feed any old board into a blade. We "read" the lumber before start a cut. First and foremost, the edge along the fence needs to be jointed straight. NEVER feed a bowed board through the saw. Check for loose knots, cracks or splits which can come flying at your face. Learn what kick back is and how to avoid it. The best safety feature of a table saw is a riving knife or splitter. 

The blade should protrude no higher than the gullet. The blade should be sharp to keep feed pressure down. Think about body position as you're making a cut.

These are a few things but there is lots of info on TS safety available. And don't assume the guys you watch on YouTube know anything about safety, either ;-)


Lastly, IMO underpowered saws with subpar fences are the most unsafe.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm good on safety thanks guys; I don't need every new post to tell me I need to be safe. I respect the table saw. I still would like the SawStop anyways but can't afford it.. so I don't know what to do.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodgeekess said:


> I'm good on safety thanks guys; I don't need every new post to tell me I need to be safe. I respect the table saw. I still would like the SawStop anyways but can't afford it.. so I don't know what to do.


Okay so you know everything there is to know about safety, what is holding you back? Nobody else can make up your mind, as the saying goes, "Pee or get off the pot".


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*There's no rush.*



woodgeekess said:


> I'm good on safety thanks guys; I don't need every new post to tell me I need to be safe. I respect the table saw. I still would like the SawStop anyways but can't afford it.. so I don't know what to do.



There are way more table saws on the planet without the S.S. flesh sensing feature that careful operators have used for years. So, start with your budget, then look at new and used, and post up your choices here. 

A 3 HP cabinet saw may come up on the used market and that would be your best solution. However, they are heavy and hard to move around by one person. A hybrid is a very close second, just a bit less power. A grizzly version has a 2 HP motor. I really like my discontinued 1 3/4 HP Craftsman 22124! 

https://www.woodshopmachinery.com/10in-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-T-Shaped-Fence-p/g0771z.htm
That's about 1/2 the price of the Saw Stop contractor saw.


It's a lifetime investment, so take your time and getting the wrong one would be a shame. Grizzly is great to deal with, another plus!
:vs_cool:


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I have been considering the Delta 36-725. But I read a post on another forum that a woodworker had it for about 6 years then noticed the cast iron top was starting to warp. They speculated it was due to the trunnion being mounted to the table instead of the cabinet. So now I'm thinking the Delta might not be a good investment.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The trunnions are mounted to the ......*



woodgeekess said:


> I have been considering the Delta 36-725. But I read a post on another forum that a woodworker had it for about 6 years then noticed the cast iron top was starting to warp. They speculated it was due to the trunnion being mounted to the table instead of the cabinet. So now I'm thinking the Delta might not be a good investment.



Just so you understand, the trunnions on a contractor saw are mounted to the table. Those on a cabinet saw are mounted to the cabinet and that's a more expensive saw. On the Grizzly hybrid I posted, they are also mounted to the cabinet, as in the product description. That's why i am suggesting that's the saw for you. :vs_cool:
..... This hybrid is a selective blend of the best features of the contractor-style table saw and cabinet style table saw. Like the cabinet saw, it has an enclosed cabinet with 4" dust port, heavy-duty cast iron trunnions that mount to the cabinet, and plenty of power (with its 2 HP motor) to easily rip through hardwoods or cut dadoes. Like the contractor-style saw, it's still light enough to move around (it weighs approximately 286 lbs.


Further advice on "push sticks" ......
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/PushShoe.htm


----------



## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I have the industrial model SawStop, great saw, expensive. It replaced a Unisaw shortly after the SS became available. I have employees. There have been two finger contacts with the running blade, no injuries except to the SS cartridge. Both guys were long experienced WWrs. The cost of the SS? Saved about $5,000 in hospital costs, twice and insurance premiums for years. The politics of the SS are what they are, can't change that. I don't spend time on things I can't change. BTW the saw stop system is not recognized by OSHA as a safety device/substitute for a plastic blade guard. Like I tell my employees: count your fingers every morning, go home with the same #. Over confidence is a major safety problem.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Yeah, just because the SawStop has that safety feature, it wouldn't affect me in any way. I'd still respect that table saw the same I would any other. I'd follow all safety rules. I know that a small piece of wood from a kickback can kill you if it hits you just right and the SawStop doesn't prevent that.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

The Grizzly G0771Z does look good, the trunnion being mounted to the cabinet and definitely worth the extra $250 over the Delta 36-725. However, after reading a few reviews on the saw, it seems to have problems with build quality, and some materials used for certain parts? I also read someone complaining how the angle changes on the blade at various blade heights. I guess I should read more reviews and perhaps watch some video reviews on this cabinet saw.

Disregarding the flesh sensing technology, how does this saw compare to SawStop PCS with PFA30? I think I read the rails/fence on this Grizzly aren't even as good as the Beissmeyer on the Delta 36-725.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

The Rigid r4512 has trunnion mounted to table as well right?


----------



## lexadmn (Jan 5, 2018)

woodgeekess said:


> The Rigid r4512 has trunnion mounted to table as well right?


Yes.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I still need a router, all I have is a cheap $25 harbor freight trim router at the moment. 

Which router(s) would you recommend for a beginning woodworker? Should I get one for a table and one for handheld? I've been eyeing the Bosch 1617EVS on Amazon for fixed router for router table. It's $169. 

Would be cool to at least start buying some stuff I need that is decent and affordable. I've been considering buy the PARF UKJ 20mm / 96mm Guide System ($199) so I can make my workbench to hold things squarely for cross cuts etc. Also been looking at the DowelMax ($239) for joints as they are independently tested as stronger than even the $1500 Festool Domino.

All this stuff is more in my price range and seems really useful. I would get the Makita track saw for $400 (with one track) but found out the tracks are often warped or bowed. Hate to fork out $800 for Festool TS 55 w/ 1 track.


----------



## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

It is simple. As long as the SawStop patent is enforced, there is no manufacturer that will put into their product. The reason? No manufacturer would allow another and competing manufacturer to control the part supply. 

Also and probably more importantly, if a manufacturer decides to incorporate the flesh sensing technology, the lawyers will come out of the woodwork. The manufacturer will be sued because the technology was not designed as a retrofit. 

It appears that it will take a manufacturer creating a new company and transferring table saw building technology to the new company to prevent law suits. 

I've read the patents. And yes the concept of flesh sensing is what is patented. The only hope is that when the Gass patents expire we will get more choices in flesh sensing technology. 

BTW - At AWFS I had a long conversation with the department head of a woodworking program at a nearby community college. About 15 years ago I had helped install their latest purchase of SawStop cabinet saws. This community college is so adamant about safety that they have never had an amputation over 40+ years. I saw someone withdrawn by the instructor for lack of safety awareness. I asked the department head if they had any blade drops. I was shocked when he said, "Dozens, more than I can remember." Most were wet wood or contact with a measuring tape. There was only one that involved blood. 

The message is that the flesh sensing mechanism senses more than flesh.


----------



## jgt1942 (Mar 15, 2012)

woodgeekess - Of all the routers I have (PC, old Craftsman, a few without identification) the one I like best is my Bosch MRC23EVSK 2.3HP Plunge-Fixed Base Router. I'm planning on building some Maloof Rockers and will get two more just so I don't have to change the two Maloof bits once they are correctly setup. I don't recall exactly what I paid for it but I think it was just over $200. I see it on Amazon for $261.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Today I met a 75 year old man who had the same table saw that he grew up with. It was the same table saw that his father had used. 

He told me that he had a perfect safety record until recently. He had gone his entire life without a power tool injury, but he lost a fingertip to the table saw a few weeks ago. He told me that he absent-mindedly brushed away a small cutoff piece. That's all it took. The table saw cut off his fingertip. Gone.

A lifetime of perfect is very difficult to achieve.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Tool Agnostic, do you think I could get away with a Jobsite Pro Sawstop? Wouldn't it be fairly easily to sell if I no longer wanted it? I imagine it's popular these days with local carpenters and construction workers?


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

woodgeekess said:


> Tool Agnostic, do you think I could get away with a Jobsite Pro Sawstop? Wouldn't it be fairly easily to sell if I no longer wanted it? I imagine it's popular these days with local carpenters and construction workers?


(_I just started a new thread about the pros and cons of owning a jobsite table saw for serious woodworking here:
_ https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/pros-cons-jobsite-table-saws-serious-woodworking-214661/)

That's a great question. 

The SawStop Jobsite Pro has improvements that seem designed to appeal to serious woodworkers, and not just carpenters and construction workers. The features that most appeal to me are the longer lead-in and the improved fence. 

The Jobsite Pro saws are so new that few of them are in use yet. I have seen a stack of Jobsite Pro boxes in the store, but I think that the store wants to sell off its supply of the older SawStop jobsite saws before it sells the new models. They don't have one on display yet.

The SawStop Jobsite Pro is a big compromise and a lot of money just to get that safety feature. At the same time, that safety feature is important, at least to me. It might be especially important to a beginner just starting out. 

My own experience with the Bosch REAXX jobsite saw was mixed. It was a great saw that made very precise cuts. I would have kept it and been happy making all kinds of woodworking projects on it. The only reason I replaced it had nothing to do with its usefulness as a saw, and doesn't apply to SawStop. (The Bosch REAXX kept triggering for no apparent reason.)

The choice you face is related to risk. Do you want a superior cutting, easier to use table saw with a higher risk of injury, or do you want the SawStop Jobsite Pro with its compromises, but the important safety feature? Another option is to wait and save some more money.

Unless you are planning very large projects, the SawStop Jobsite Pro might be a perfect way to get started. It will be much smaller and easier to manage in a small shop. It might give you the confidence you need to jump start your woodworking interests. It is the least expensive safety table saw available, and it has features that would be useful to a woodworker.

Having said that, a jobsite table saw is a set of compromises, and you will have to work around them. 

Nobody can predict the future, but if you outgrow the Jobsite Pro and replace it, or you decide to get out of woodworking, you should be able to sell it for a good price. Consider the use you got from it a "rental." It is not a bad way to think: Give it a try, and if you don't like it, sell it to a ready market for a reasonable price. Consider the difference the cost of "education" That education is well worth it, in my opinion.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The Saw Stop saw ......*

The saw you reference above, is in a different class of jobsite saws than the others with all the improvements you mentioned, and+--` in fact may be a singular standout. It really doesn't compare to the other typical jobsite saws. It may indeed, be a good compromise considering price, features and safety however, for $500.00 more you can get the contractor saw:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sawstop+...512018&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_8v8xsbj2mq_b


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> The saw you reference above, is in a different class of jobsite saws than the others with all the improvements you mentioned, and+--` in fact may be a singular standout. It really doesn't compare to the other typical jobsite saws. It may indeed, be a good compromise considering price, features and safety however, for $500.00 more you can get the contractor saw:
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sawstop+...512018&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_8v8xsbj2mq_b



The contractor saw is only $300 more with the 30" rip fence. It's $1699 vs $1399. For $1899 I can get it with the 36" T-Glide -- without mobile base or dust collection blade guard. I've been considering it too. The rep at Sawstop has been telling I should just get the PCS instead of the contractor one. But that's $2650 or so with 36" T-glide.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I was always a DELTA fan up until recently. The design change on the Contractors Saw doesnt appear to be for the better. Look all over the web and it gets around 3 stars, maybe a little higher. I was looking at one up close and personal in Lowes the other day and the blade insert was very thin metal - probably 3/16". Which pretty much says you cant make your own out of plywood or MDF - too thin
So, if I cant make my own zero clearance tabls saw inserts, I dont want the saw. i make my own for every size blade and dado set I use. Wont make anything without them.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*An insert for your insert .....*

You can just make an insert that fits in the thinner factory version like this:
 

 




You may want to back it up like this; 
___


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Tony B said:


> I was always a DELTA fan up until recently. The design change on the Contractors Saw doesnt appear to be for the better. Look all over the web and it gets around 3 stars, maybe a little higher. I was looking at one up close and personal in Lowes the other day and the blade insert was very thin metal - probably 3/16". Which pretty much says you cant make your own out of plywood or MDF - too thin
> So, if I cant make my own zero clearance tabls saw inserts, I dont want the saw. i make my own for every size blade and dado set I use. Wont make anything without them.


What about 3D printing one? I have a 3D printer and plan on using it a lot to make jigs, inserts and other tools & hardware. (beginning woodworker here). Good 3D printer are only like $250 these days. An insert would probably only cost about 50 cents in plastic filament to print. And each time you need another you just simply reprint the same file, no work at all


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

woodgeekess said:


> The contractor saw is only $300 more with the 30" rip fence. It's $1699 vs $1399. For $1899 I can get it with the 36" T-Glide -- without mobile base or dust collection blade guard. I've been considering it too. The rep at Sawstop has been telling I should just get the PCS instead of the contractor one. But that's $2650 or so with 36" T-glide.


Yeah, I went through the same cost and space decisions with mine. The 36 inch T-Glide is much superior and worth the cost over the 30 inch fence, whichever saw you choose.

FYI, the contractor saw has the largest footprint, because the motor hangs off the back. The cabinet saw has a smaller footprint because the motor is in the cabinet. The smaller footprint is why I chose a PCS-175. The Jobsite Pro had not been announced when I bought the PCS-175 last Spring.

If you get the PCS, you may want to budget for the very expensive industrial mobile base, too. In a pros and cons list about it, Trent Davis wrote in Cons: "Will cause you to despise all other mobile bases you ever use." He is right.

Here is a very useful link, if you are trying to decide between a SawStop contractor and cabinet saws:
https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2019/01/18/choosing-a-sawstop-contractor-vs-professional/

Since we are "drinking the Koolaid", here are some more helpful links from the same guy, including some related to making your own router table in the saw. You asked about router table in another thread. The official SawStop cast iron one is very expensive; I would rather build my own instead, as suggested in some of the links here:

https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/04/07/table-saw-modification-router-table-enclosure-part-1/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/04/14/table-saw-modification-router-table-enclosure-part-2-laminate/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/04/...ble-enclosure-part-3-hardware-and-electrical/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2016/08/31/dado-information
https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2018/08/06/helpful-sawstop-links/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2018/07/06/sawstop-brake-spacing-explained/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/01/...ent-attaching-extra-cast-iron-extension-wing/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/01/...rosscut-table-without-cutting-down-the-rails/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/01/...converting-extension-table-into-router-table/
https://www.trentdavis.net/2017/06/13/tool-maintenance-protecting-cast-iron-tabletop/


----------



## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

About the CI top on a Delta warping because the trunnions are attached to it: I doubt it! Cast Iron isn't nearly as stable as most people think. It gets stresses induced into it while it cools from about 2600 F to room temp in a relatively short time. Those stresses can be relieved by the old method, aging. By newer methods of vibration or things I know nothing about. The point is they are there when you buy something CI. They may show up at a later date by relaxing the part, causing undesired consequences. All is not always lost. It is possible to return the part to it's as machined shape. I've done it. I learned it a long time ago from a technician at Powermatic back when they made their stuff. I suspect there are some risks to it so won't post it here. You can click my name and send a private response. 

The trials and tribulations of making a new tool (or anything else) selection is something that most of us go through. I've learned the hard way that too many compromises result in being unhappy with the result. In this case the trade off is safety VS cost. I've only owned one contractor saw and hated it. I've owned a variety of cabinet saws. The best by far is the SawStop (industrial model 5hp). Much better than the Unisaw it replaced. 

About throat plates: It is very important that they be really stiff. Some of the cheap saws have terribly floppy plates. I think plastic printed ones would not be for me. If a saw has too thin of a ledge to support the plate a new thicker plate can be fabricated that just has a ledge for the thin support ledge but a thicker main part. Even W/O any machining equipment you can make thicker new plates with a handheld router and a jig. It would be best to use a milling cutter but a carbide wood bit will cut 6061 aluminum. Use a little WD40 as a cutting fluid to keep the aluminum from sticking to the it.


----------



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I see this 3HP Grizzly cabinet table saw (single phase 230V) for $1100 with mobile base. They normally cost $1599 + $175 shipping and don't come with the base. What do you think about it? Here's the link: Grizzly G1023RLW

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/504594817021880/

It looks like it is in brand new condition almost.. well taken care of.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I made my own zero clearance inserts (throat plates) for the Bosch REAXX, because they cost $60 each. (The ones for the 4100 are only $7 each.) I wrote up a long, detailed procedure here:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12...w-make-your-own-zero-clearance-insert-196969/

SawStop inserts are expensive at $49 apiece. I had not solved the problem of how to make a homemade version from wood with a hold down like SawStop's. In the meantime, I found an aluminum SawStop zero clearance insert plate from Infinity Tools that uses easily replaceable, easy-to-make MDF "inserts" that slide into a dovetail fitting in the metal plate. With the one plate, you can make as many zero clearance inserts as you want: 
https://www.infinitytools.com/sawstop-zero-clearance-throat-plate-with-two-inserts-4752
They also make a version for the SawStop Jobsite table saw, but I don't know if it fits the SawStop Jobsite Pro:
https://www.infinitytools.com/sawstop-z-c-i-for-jobsite-saw

Infinity Tools has similar zero clearance insert plates for many other table saws, not just SawStop.

Pros:
* Heavy, solid aluminum base plate.
* It fits perfectly in my SawStop PCS. 
* It costs $110. If you need three additional inserts for your SawStop saw, it will pay for itself.
* You can buy additional cheap MDF inserts from Infinity Tools - a four-pack is $13.90. That's $3.50 each.
* ... or you can make your own stupid simple inserts. Infinity Tools publishes the plans with the measurements, too.
* It just works.

Cons:
* Does not have "hooks" like the SawStop insert plates. Nothing holds the front down except its own weight. I was bothered at first, but it is solid and heavy. On first use, it was obvious that it won't lift up during a cut.

* The anti-kickback pawls catch on the plate and dig in as you try to lower the blade. You must remember to raise the anti-kickback pawls out of the way before you can lower the blade. Otherwise, the blade gets stuck and cannot be lowered until you raise the blade to free the anti-kickback pawls. I tried waxing the plate, but it didn't help. The anti-kickback pawls still dig in. 

I called and asked about it, and it felt like I was calling from Mars. The customer support person had never heard of the issue (why not??), did not want to understand, and obviously didn't care. It seems clear that the manufacturer (Jack Colliflower) never tested with a regular blade and the anti-kickback pawls. They probably only tested with dados making non-through cuts. Dumb.

Despite the fact that you must reach back and pull the anti-kickback pawls out of the way before lowering the blade, I recommend the Infinity Tools zero clearance insert. It makes zero clearance inserts for your table saw cheap and easy, so you will want to have them for every blade and dado width you use. Too bad they never tested with the blade and standard safety equipment that comes with the saw. Despite that, I still recommend it.


----------



## WatsonWoodGuy (Oct 7, 2019)

Hi Woodgeekess, I stumbled on this forum looking for reviews of the new Sawstop Jobsite Pro. I feel like I am in a similar situation and I wanted to offer my 2 cents:

I am a newbie woodworker and am also in the market for a new good beginner table saw. I have a cheap craftsman that I bought 10 years ago to do some small projects on, but the first time I used it for something bigger, I knew I needed to upgrade, and it was primarily for safety reasons. It just wasn't built for what I was trying to do. It currently sits in a corner collecting dust while I save up for a new saw. That being said, I was debating for a very long time on the same saws from Delta and Rigid. I was ready to go with the Delta but then asked my brother in law who is a finish carpenter, his opinion. He said get a Sawstop. I started doing research and decided that I was going to save for the Contractor model with the 36 inch T-Glide fence. This was a couple months ago.

Fast forward to today, I am building a full size bed frame and fortunately have only needed my miter saw. I have it mounted to a Delta portable saw stand. I pulled it out to make my cuts and realized that I probably do not have the space for the Sawstop Contractor saw. I also decided that saving up for the contractor saw is going to take quite a while so while I would love to spend the extra $$ for the better saw, the Jobsite Pro would probably be sufficient for what I plan on doing and save me some money. 

Have a bought it yet? Nope, for me at this point in my life family comes first before my hobbies so I am putting my saw purchase on hold until I absolutely need it and can convince my better half that it is a necessary purchase. Which means I need a project that she is interested in (basement finishing maybe?)

My father has offered me his 30 year old Craftsman contractor saw for free just to get out of his basement because he doesn't have the space for it, but I reluctantly passed on it. It was hard telling him no thanks as it is a good say and it has sentimental value, but I said that I felt the safety features on the Sawstop were very important to me. 

I know myself and I know that I would rather have the safest tools possible because mistakes happen. I also know that the Jobsite saw will be a compromise but I always have been a believer in going into something with eyes wide open so you know the limitations. So for me, I have decided to wait and save for the Jobsite saw. Maybe when it is actually time to buy, my decision will be different but if I had to do it today, I would go with the Sawstop Jobsite Pro.

Sorry for the ramblings but I thought it might be nice to hear someone's perspective in a similar situation.


----------



## red68mgb (Aug 21, 2019)

woodgeekess said:


> I see this 3HP Grizzly cabinet table saw (single phase 230V) for $1100 with mobile base. They normally cost $1599 + $175 shipping and don't come with the base. What do you think about it? Here's the link: Grizzly G1023RLW
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/504594817021880/
> 
> It looks like it is in brand new condition almost.. well taken care of.


Hope you grabbed it. Looked like a great deal. I just bought a variant of this model this summer. 
It was in Missouri- wonder how close to the Grizzly store.


----------

