# Designing a basement shop - 25x16



## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Hey guys, as stated above, i'm designing a basement shop 25'x16'. So far I have a *Dewalt 12" compound miter saw*, a *10" ryobi miter saw* (don't think i'm it using in this shop), *Craftsman 24" radial arm saw*, a ryobi portable TS (gonna use as a sander), a *Ridgid TS 2400* (portable TS),* Ridgid TS 3660* (permanent TS), a *Ridgid 6" jointer*, a *10" craftsman BS*, a *ryobi 12" drill press* (DP is a piece of crap - boat anchor... etc. - anybody want???), a *router table*, a whole assortment of good hand power tools: Bosch jig saw, bosh trim router, porter cable router, dewalt drills, bostitch 16ga brad gun, lots of other i'm forgetting to.

So far I have most of the tools, but I need advice on which thickness planer to get... I'm going to be planing 12" oak.

Ok, now for the shop, it's a basement shop with about 7-8' high ceilings... the floor is cement and there's not a 2ft section of it thats straight! LOl 
What i'm going to be doing is making a 19' bench along the wall... on that bench i'm going to have the miter saw, radial arm saw, band saw and drill press (maybe), they're going to all be at the same height as each other. I'm going to have the miter saw on top of the bench, then rip 2x4's the same height as the miter saw and space them every 2 feet on the bench so that I can have tools laying on the bench if needed and still be able to cut a pice of wood. I will then match the other tools up to the miter saw. 
I just built a 4'x10' worktable/bench 4 days ago, it's 34" high, the same height as the TS, I want to make the bench the same height as the TS and the work bench. 

Ok, so for my question, what is the best way to build the bench that i'm going to have the tools on? I built a bench in my other shop with 2x4's coming from the wall and a 2x4 going from that down to the sill on the floor. On top of the 2x4 were 3 2x6's (layed down flat) then 2 sheets of 3/4" ply then 1/4" hardboard. I think that might be overkill, I usually build stronger than needed for some reason. So does anyone have another idea for making the bench? 

Now to dust collection, I am definitely going to need dust collection for this basement, I will need it on all the tools.... should I go out and just buy 5 shop vacs or do I need a real system??? If I need a real system what kinda of HP, model, brand do I need for this amount of tools???

Electrical, I am going to put in probably 6 other 4' flourescent light fixtures so that I can have proper lighting. Will I overload a 15A circuit if I have nine 4' flourescent lights on one breaker?
As long as I don't use more than 1 tool at once will I need a different circuit breaker for dust collection (assuming I get a "real" dust collection system) and a 15A tool (theoretically I think I do)?

Sorry for the long post, and if anything is a little confusing just tell me... I know it might all sound a little vague. I'm going to start either tomorrow or the next day so quick responses would be appreciated!

thanks in advance!

Steve


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Steve great questions!*

From last to first, put in as many circuits and outlets as you can and separate the lights from the power tools..you don't want the world to go black in the middle of a cutting operation. By all means dust collection is primary. You are in a confined space and dust will find it's way into the heat and cool system no matter what you do. So collect it at the source and filter the room air. A simple room air filteriong ststem can be made with a 3 speed furnace blower and some pleated filters from HD. The bigger chips from a planer or jointer need a Dust Collector rather than a shop vac just by volume alone. The finer dust can be effectively collected with shop vacs and they now make hepa filter. Put a panty hose on the filter and change it clean it every day after using do it outside! I keep several in rotation. Some will say a Shop Vac isn't enough, and I have no absolute proof, but I just bought 3 Rigid SV's at HD for $70 each on sale. I also have 3 -1 1/2 HP Jets with 2 micron pleated filters. They are a pain to clean and empty. Just to get them outside to clean leaves dust in the air. If you go full bore with a separate DC find a place outside the shop area where its dry and some dust won't kill the roses. The commercial shops all do this. A big dust collector will take some 220v power as well. I filled a whole 100 amp panel with separate circuits for tools,lights, and heaters. My energy co loves me! Fine Wood Wooking and Wood run tests on tools all the time. Google Planer test and check them out. A bench top planer should have ample power, enough weight, and produce a good smooth finish. As far as contructing the shop itself, others may have some ideas. My suggestions are insulate the ceiling above and drywall it to keep noise and dust down. Your tool collections seem adequate. My first shop was in my basement and after I got the 1200lb South Bend Metal lathe down the stairs in pieces, I swore I'd never have another shop with stairs.. well guess what, my woodshop is upstairs over my garage.:laughing: Well it sounds like I've gone on for ever, so best to you. bill


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> From last to first, put in as many circuits and outlets as you can and separate the lights from the power tools..you don't want the world to go black in the middle of a cutting operation. By all means dust collection is primary. You are in a confined space and dust will find it's way into the heat and cool system no matter what you do. So collect it at the source and filter the room air. A simple room air filteriong ststem can be made with a 3 speed furnace blower and some pleated filters from HD. The bigger chips from a planer or jointer need a Dust Collector rather than a shop vac just by volume alone. The finer dust can be effectively collected with shop vacs and they now make hepa filter. Put a panty hose on the filter and change it clean it every day after using do it outside! I keep several in rotation. Some will say a Shop Vac isn't enough, and I have no absolute proof, but I just bought 3 Rigid SV's at HD for $70 each on sale. I also have 3 -1 1/2 HP Jets with 2 micron pleated filters. They are a pain to clean and empty. Just to get them outside to clean leaves dust in the air. If you go full bore with a separate DC find a place outside the shop area where its dry and some dust won't kill the roses. The commercial shops all do this. A big dust collector will take some 220v power as well. I filled a whole 100 amp panel with separate circuits for tools,lights, and heaters. My energy co loves me! Fine Wood Wooking and Wood run tests on tools all the time. Google Planer test and check them out. A bench top planer should have ample power, enough weight, and produce a good smooth finish. As far as contructing the shop itself, others may have some ideas. My suggestions are insulate the ceiling above and drywall it to keep noise and dust down. Your tool collections seem adequate. My first shop was in my basement and after I got the 1200lb South Bend Metal lathe down the stairs in pieces, I swore I'd never have another shop with stairs.. well guess what, my woodshop is upstairs over my garage.:laughing: Well it sounds like I've gone on for ever, so best to you. bill


Thanks, I've only got 2 spots left for breaker boxes, so I guess i'll use one for dust collection and outlets and the other for the saws. Btw, we have another entrance... ya know the cellar doors, so it shouldn't be to bad.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Anybody else have any ideas, I don't have alot of experiance building shops, I'm only 16. Any other input is appreciated!


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## dollis (Dec 28, 2008)

Try too find someone with electrical experience that can help you. it is not hard to add a sub panel (small second box with more breakers). You can then put all your "power tools circuits" in their own box. Remember to label your outlets so it is easy to tell what breaker goes to what outlet. Keep your lights on their own breaker and use GFCI's.


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## KB Services (Nov 28, 2006)

dollis said:


> Try too find someone with electrical experience that can help you. it is not hard to add a sub panel (small second box with more breakers).


Barter with a Sparky for power. The last thing you want is to have a tool go dead in the midddle of a cut or in the planner.


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## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Depending on the load and service you already have you may be able to take those 2 remaining circuits and make up to 8 total using peanut breakers. These are breakers that combine 2 to 4 circuits into the space of 1 breaker. I am not an electrician and am not saying this is safe for your application, but it is an option to look at. I am guessing that you already have lights down there that are on a circuit other than the 2 you are looking to add.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

ScottyB said:


> Depending on the load and service you already have you may be able to take those 2 remaining circuits and make up to 8 total using peanut breakers. These are breakers that combine 2 to 4 circuits into the space of 1 breaker. I am not an electrician and am not saying this is safe for your application, but it is an option to look at. I am guessing that you already have lights down there that are on a circuit other than the 2 you are looking to add.


I already have 3 lights down there... so you guys are basically saying I'll need more then 2 breakers (there's no outlets down there now) in order to have enough power for the whole shop?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm not real smart, and I'm only 64. But whenever I'm stumped I usually go to Google first.

This shows you the way I begin most of my searches, by looking at pictures. All I did here was type "woodshops" into the Google window.

****************************

From another forum, here's just one electrician's thoughts on tandom or twin breakers (peanut breakers).............

_"As to using peanut breakers. Well, folks, here is the deal. Back during the late 60s and early 70s, many homes were built using 60 to 100 amp service centers with very limited space. Many of these centers were made by federal pacific and your safer off by using a penny in a fuse socket. That is why you dont see federal pacific sold today... the UL and CSL cancelled their ratings for safety issues. Whenever I see a federal pacific box, I am ripping it out before the ink on the contract is dry!_

_Clearly, there is a use for half size breakers or peanut breakers. Under certain loading conditions, the box is simply smaller than that which is allowable given the disconect breaker and incomming service line. Here a little bit of a good thing goes a long way. Replace all your breakers with half height breakers to double your slot count and you can exceed the allowable number of branch circuits for the given incomming service and disconnect. Also bear in mind that the service center back plane may not be rated for all that extra current draw._

_So if you need to add one or two extra branch circuits to an existing installation, you should be more or less O.K. Start adding 220 volt, high amp draw circuits, and you may overwhelm your service center._

_I have used these before even though I personally do not like them. My experiences with federal pacific hardware has led me to be very critical of this part of the home electrical installation. My favorate breaker and service center hardware is that of square D. Not the Homeline series but rather the QO and QOB series. I have also had good luck with Siemens."_


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Willie T said:


> I'm not real smart, and I'm only 64. But whenever I'm stumped I usually go to Google first.
> 
> This shows you the way I begin most of my searches, by looking at pictures. All I did here was type "woodshops" into the Google window.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I think i'll add another subpanel just for the shop, we already have one panel for the main floor and a second panel for the second floor. Idk how many amps we have coming in but I know we jus added a 240v outlet for my welder so hopefully I won't overload it:huh: forgot to mention we also have two big AC's on the main floor drawing 20a each And we also have 6 computers on the second floor with a whole lot of other office equipment too. I think I can tap into the box for the first floor and i'll be fine.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Whoa there Steve!*

"Thanks, I think i'll add another subpanel just for the shop, we already have one panel for the main floor and a second panel for the second floor. Idk how many amps we have coming in but I know we jus added a 240v outlet for my welder so hopefully I won't overload it:huh: forgot to mention we also have two big AC's on the main floor drawing 20a each And we also have 6 computers on the second floor with a whole lot of other office equipment too. I think I can tap into the box for the first floor and i'll be fine." 

Steve,
I'm 66 and only 2 years "smarter"  than our friend Willie T with the electrical advice in the previous post. What I do know, is you can't sub from a sub panel It has to be from a main. My own Wood shop has it's own 100 amp sub, but it's off a 100amp breaker in the main. I have a separate main in the Lower shop directly off the meter. The garage has it's own 100 amp sub off of that. Another thing is that you can have a "total" breaker amperage of more than the panel "capacity" of say 100 amps. So even tho you have a 50 amp welder outlet, you can add additional outlets which total more that 100 amps since any load greater than that will trip the main breaker in the 100 amp panel. The chances of more than one person using the equipment simultaneously is a determining factor. For a one man shop this is not a real problem. Just make certain that you are doing this the right way, since an electrical fire hasn't saved you any money in the long run. Use 12 ga wire for the 20 amp outlet and the 20amp receptacle as well and 14 ga wire is adequate for lighting but do not mix wire sizes on the same circuit!! The smallest wire size, (largest no. ) is the capacity of that circuit. Just my free advice! bill:yes:


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi Steve

Lots of good advice in the responses. One thing I would like to suggest is that you split your lighting into two circuits, so if one goes dead you will still have the other. You could also have outlets on your lighting circuits provided you will only be using light duty equipment, such as power hand tools, or low draw bench tools. 

gerry


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## WDChew (Aug 31, 2007)

Gerry KIERNAN said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> Lots of good advice in the responses. One thing I would like to suggest is that you split your lighting into two circuits, so if one goes dead you will still have the other. You could also have outlets on your lighting circuits provided you will only be using light duty equipment, such as power hand tools, or low draw bench tools.
> 
> gerry


My last shop (before I moved to KY) was 24x16 and I put 3 8' 2-tube fixtures down the center. It was plenty of light. One was on the original house circuit (you said you had lights now) and the others were on their own circuit. They only draw less than 2 amps, so you can use the mini breakers for them (as discussed above) and use the existing slot.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> "Thanks, I think i'll add another subpanel just for the shop, we already have one panel for the main floor and a second panel for the second floor. Idk how many amps we have coming in but I know we jus added a 240v outlet for my welder so hopefully I won't overload it:huh: forgot to mention we also have two big AC's on the main floor drawing 20a each And we also have 6 computers on the second floor with a whole lot of other office equipment too. I think I can tap into the box for the first floor and i'll be fine."
> 
> Steve,
> I'm 66 and only 2 years "smarter"  than our friend Willie T with the electrical advice in the previous post. What I do know, is you can't sub from a sub panel It has to be from a main. My own Wood shop has it's own 100 amp sub, but it's off a 100amp breaker in the main. I have a separate main in the Lower shop directly off the meter. The garage has it's own 100 amp sub off of that. Another thing is that you can have a "total" breaker amperage of more than the panel "capacity" of say 100 amps. So even tho you have a 50 amp welder outlet, you can add additional outlets which total more that 100 amps since any load greater than that will trip the main breaker in the 100 amp panel. The chances of more than one person using the equipment simultaneously is a determining factor. For a one man shop this is not a real problem. Just make certain that you are doing this the right way, since an electrical fire hasn't saved you any money in the long run. Use 12 ga wire for the 20 amp outlet and the 20amp receptacle as well and 14 ga wire is adequate for lighting but do not mix wire sizes on the same circuit!! The smallest wire size, (largest no. ) is the capacity of that circuit. Just my free advice! bill:yes:


I'm not going to run a sub from a sub I was going to run it from the main:thumbsup: the box for the first story is the main:huh: I think I confused you there... sorry.:smile:

And yes, I don't think i'll be welding and using the table saw concurrently:blink: so I should be fine there.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Does anyone know if 6-3g cable is big enough for a 50amp run of about 5-10ft?


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## Jim Picardi (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't know much about wiring except you can't have too much of it, but as for building your bench I'd nix the 2X lumber for the structure and use 3/4" birch plywood Ripped to 3 1/2" widths. It's much more stable (won't twist), It's lighter and assembled with pocket screws (get yourself an inexpensive Kreg jig if you don't already have one) it's plenty strong enough.
Then once you've built it you can figure out the best layout for all your tools. 
Good luck, you've found a great forum for advice starting out. Wish there had been such a thing as the internet when i did.
Jim


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

*Don't like the way this thread is going but.........*

As an electrician, I have to say that electrical advice over the internet is a dangerous thing. Pay attention to the electrical codes in your area and be careful not to overload your panel. When a house burns to the ground, you don't hear it blamed on a table saw very often. However, you will most often hear "faulty wiring". We, as electricians, spend years in college for a reason and that reason is the knowledge to do the job safely.
Please, be careful.
Ken
p.s. I don't see the point in GFCI recepticles in a shop unless there is a water source within 3 feet.


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## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

Steve G. said:


> Does anyone know if 6-3g cable is big enough for a 50amp run of about 5-10ft?


Hope so. I've got 4 40ft runs of it in my house!


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## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

Kenbo said:


> p.s. I don't see the point in GFCI recepticles in a shop unless there is a water source within 3 feet.


Agreed, especially since they're finicky around inductive loads sometimes. However, if the shop is in "unfinished space" they may be required by code. Check local listings.

And since this shop is in a basement, if you think there's a chance you might get water down there, it's something to consider.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Jim Picardi said:


> I don't know much about wiring except you can't have too much of it, but as for building your bench I'd nix the 2X lumber for the structure and use 3/4" birch plywood Ripped to 3 1/2" widths. It's much more stable (won't twist), It's lighter and assembled with pocket screws (get yourself an inexpensive Kreg jig if you don't already have one) it's plenty strong enough.
> Then once you've built it you can figure out the best layout for all your tools.
> Good luck, you've found a great forum for advice starting out. Wish there had been such a thing as the internet when i did.
> Jim


Just got back from HD:yes:
I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean replace a 2x4 with 1 piece of 3n1/2" birch? That wouldn't be more stable... or do you mean sandwich 2 pieces of 3n1/2" birche together? I've used the 2x4 method before in my other shop and so far it's been good. If it makes that much of a difference then I don't mind going back and getting birch and using the 2x4's somewhere else??? Anybody else agree with him? I do have a whole kraig set of pocket screw equipment if I needed to do it that way.:smile: I know it will definitley look nicer that way but I don't think it will make a big difference:no:

I was going to build cabinets on wheels and just put an individual tool on each one but the floor is so out of whack... I (kinda) KNOW it won't work:thumbdown:

Ken, thanks for the warning, I think i'll talk to an electricain from around here before I start. We have weird code in NYC... did you guys know we can't use anything but BX??? Were not allowed to use NM So yeah, codes are alot different here!


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## dollis (Dec 28, 2008)

As an electrician and the owner of a basement I highly recommend GFCI's as a LOT of basements have small leaks mine right now has the entire floor discolored due to moisture from recent heavy rains. If you have the extra 9-11 dollars ($9.75 15A ,$11.30 20A at home depot) per branch circuit why not? They have saved other peoples lives and are required within 6ft' of water (Section 210.8 NEC code). Before I would install another sub panel I would check the main breaker amperage. If you have an older home it may be an issue due to its size. most of the newer homes have a 200amp or larger service. It is very important that you do check local codes. Some towns i have been in require a permit to even replace a breaker and others will let owners due anything they want as long as they do it there self. If you have a home depot near you call them and see when there next class is for wiring. It is a good class for home owner do it yourselfers.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

dollis said:


> As an electrician and the owner of a basement I highly recommend GFCI's as a LOT of basements have small leaks mine right now has the entire floor discolored due to moisture from recent heavy rains. If you have the extra 9-11 dollars ($9.75 15A ,$11.30 20A at home depot) per branch circuit why not? They have saved other peoples lives and are required within 6ft' of water (Section 210.8 NEC code). Before I would install another sub panel I would check the main breaker amperage. If you have an older home it may be an issue due to its size. most of the newer homes have a 200amp or larger service. It is very important that you do check local codes. Some towns i have been in require a permit to even replace a breaker and others will let owners due anything they want as long as they do it there self. If you have a home depot near you call them and see when there next class is for wiring. It is a good class for home owner do it yourselfers.


We have 200amps coming in, I think we might go the route with the GFCI's just to be on the safe side. It looks like both of the panels are mains because they're right next to each other and they both have main 100a breakers.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

Question # 1: do you guy mean GFCI breakers? or GFCI oulets?

Queation # 2: Is there any reason I wouldn't use a 20a duplex breaker instead of 2 normal 20a breakers? I ask this because I was looking at main lugs this morning and the 70a version only had 2 slots and 4 circuits at the max. So I was just going put in a duplex 20a breaker and leave the other one for lights or whatever.

Question # 3: Since I'm using BX I don't have to put the ground wire to the ground bus bar in the sub panel right? The bx should ground to the box when I screw the clamp down right?


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Using GFCI outlets in a basement would be a good plan anyway, because basement outlets are so often used to plug in extension cords for anything going on outside.

Gerry


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## dollis (Dec 28, 2008)

GFCI outlets are usually good enough however some city's require both. which is stupid IMO I have seen trouble daisy chaining GFCI's. I *personally* would use only breakers can cost up to 3 times as much. That way if they are tripped there is NO power going into the box's If you have a outlet trip the ground fault power is still on in the box to one side of the plug even though no power will come out of the plug.


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## AZ Termite (Dec 20, 2008)

Steve, I would recommend that you consult an electrician. Electricity is nothing to mess around with. The last thing you want to happen is have a fire. I am electrically retarded, I got lucky when I built my shop. My neighbor and his dad came over and wired everything for me the way I wanted it and needed it. If you don't want to get an electrician, at least find a HD that you can take a class.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

AZ Termite said:


> Steve, I would recommend that you consult an electrician. Electricity is nothing to mess around with. The last thing you want to happen is have a fire. I am electrically retarded, I got lucky when I built my shop. My neighbor and his dad came over and wired everything for me the way I wanted it and needed it. If you don't want to get an electrician, at least find a HD that you can take a class.


I'm probably going to talk to an electricain soon, IDK... in the mean time I'm reading a good book about it "wiring simplified" 40th edition.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

well, so far I have the the subpanel mounted as of tonight, the bench is mostly completed... now all I have to do is hook the sub panel up and wire the basement then build a bench on the other side of the shop! (getting closer to finishing) pics to come. btw, we got the dewalt 735 last night. still in box along with the jointer  I have the TS 3660 half way assembled (bad directions). lots a peg board up btw! i'm excited.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

update, opened, assembled and used the jointer and the thickness planer.... couldn't be happier! now I just need to align the kickback guard on the TS3660 and i'll be ready to go.


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## Steve G. (Oct 4, 2007)

I wired the subpanel this morning (side note: 2 main panels are PACKED!!! all duplexed out!) got the 50a breaker in, replaced 4 half inch breakers with two 20a duplex breakers to make room. Wasted alot of time wring oulets using the screw method when the outlets were designed to be backwired! (20A outlets).

Anybody have a good suggestion for a dust collector? I'll be having 2 TS's, thick planer, jointer, radial arm, miter saw, drill press and a bandsaw hooked up to it (maybe i'll even hook the kreg set up to it )

The miter saw, drill press and bandsaw will probably be 20-30ft away from it. The TS, jointer, thick plan & radial arm will be probly 5-10ft away from it. 

I was thinking 3HP... But that might be to much. What do you guys think?


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