# Cutting Crown Molding Miters without Chop Saw?



## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm ready to install some crown molding ... a first for me.
But how to cut it?
I do NOT own a chop saw!

This is trim for built in kitchen cabinets.
There's not much of it, the molding is 4.5" wide and the longest piece is about 9-10'. There are two 90 degree external mitered corners (no internal corners) so a total of only 4 cuts. [One of the mitered corners has a very short side - only about 2" long at the shortest edge - this cabinet is inset into a recess in the wall where the face frame stands proud of the wall a couple inches, so that leg of the crown covers the gap.

I have:
-Contractors 10" table saw (no sliding table of course). Good crosscut blade.
-Japanese saws: a couple Dozuki, a Ryoba, and a Kataba (the latter two in rougher shape than the Dozukis).
-Circular saw (not great).
-Two Western saws: Veritas fine tooth dovetail (too small) and a 30+ year old beat to hell dull standard western 'box'saw (crosscut saw with stiff back).
- A Bosch Jigsaw
And that's it.

As for jigs I have a 30+ year old beat out maple miter box about a foot long with short sides, a device I pretty much never use except once in a dark blue moon to make a quick dirty cut.
I experimented with a quick and dirty miter cut by adding a higher temporary sidewall inside the miter box so I could position the molding at a 45 degree angle inside the miter box, then make the cut with a Ryobi ... it was awkward to cut and not confidance inspiring and when finished the miter joint it produced didn't look clean or exact nor was the geometry precise: I concluded that even if I took my time and did it with care that this setup was jingus.

None of my tools seem suited to the task.

Oh, just to preempt the inevitable: I have no plans to purchase a chop saw. I've managed to find a way to make whatever cuts I've needed to make in my life without owning a chop and I've never lusted after one. Besides I don't have the space. (I do admit to some brief moments of chop curiosity very recently - but that's all it is).

Any ideas?
Thanks a bunch.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It could be done with a hand held circular saw but it might take some doing to make the jigs to miter it. You would have to make a jig to clamp to the molding mitering it left and right at 31.62 degrees. Then tilt the blade over on the saw to 34 degrees. This is how a compound miter saw functions. The angles would need to be very exact as if you were off just a half degree the miter wouldn't make 45 degrees on the wall. If the molding is small enough you might just pick up a wooden miter box and cut it with a hand saw. You would put the molding in the miter box on an angle just like it fits on the wall.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Do it the same way they did it for centuries before power tools. 

A hand saw and miter box with correct angles. Surely there is a video somewhere on the web to show how.

George


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

GeorgeC said:


> Do it the same way they did it for centuries before power tools.
> 
> A hand saw and miter box with correct angles. Surely there is a video somewhere on the web to show how.
> 
> George


I cut crown with a Stanley 5x30" back saw and miterbox for years until miter saws were used. I still have this miterbox and saw but have not used it in many years. The last time I used it was cutting 12" 3 piece crown that only a 15" miter saw could handle. As the large miter saws at that time were not accurate enough for crown my Stanley miter box filled the bill. 
mike


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I never cut crown flat, so I would do it just like a miter saw - upside down and 45’s.

I would make a miter box with 2x4 walls tall enough and wide enough to hold the crown at a 45° tilt. Make two opposing 45° plumb cuts to guide the saw. Insert the crown upside down and cut the 45°.

I would check the walls first, outside corners are often less than 90.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

kwoodhands said:


> I cut crown with a Stanley 5x30" back saw and miterbox for years until miter saws were used. I still have this miterbox and saw but have not used it in many years. The last time I used it was cutting 12" 3 piece crown that only a 15" miter saw could handle. As the large miter saws at that time were not accurate enough for crown my Stanley miter box filled the bill.
> mike


Assuming this saw would be accurate enough for crown, the 4" X 6" capacity would be greater than most miter saws. And the price is a whole lot less than some. There are larger sizes at far more money in this style also.








1 HP 4 in. x 6 in. Horizontal/Vertical Metal Cutting Band Saw


Amazing deals on this 4In X 6In Hor/Vert Metal Cutting Band Saw at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




www.harborfreight.com













The basic design would use a pivoting head with a vertical twisted blade and an angle vise, but the capacity could be as large as 12" X 12". I have two metal cutting saws, one is as described above, but the other has a rolling carriage which carries the blade and motor assembly down a sloped ramp. It still uses a twisted blade for increased capacity:






Roll-In Saw | Vertical Band Saws







www.rollinsaw.com


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Lovegasollne... Know anybody or can you rent a miter saw go from say Home depot?


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

woodnthings said:


> Assuming this saw would be accurate enough for crown, the 4" X 6" capacity would be greater than most miter saws. And the price is a whole lot less than some. There are larger sizes at far more money in this style also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've cut miles of crown molding. The 4x6 saw you show is for metal as you know. I also have a HF 4x6 and would never attempt to cut crown or any molding with it.


DrRobert said:


> I never cut crown flat, so I would do it just like a miter saw - upside down and 45’s.
> 
> I would make a miter box with 2x4 walls tall enough and wide enough to hold the crown at a 45° tilt. Make two opposing 45° plumb cuts to guide the saw. Insert the crown upside down and cut the 45°.
> 
> I would check the walls first, outside corners are often less than 90.


I believe you meant 38° instead of 45 °. Most crown is 38/52 ° although I have run into 45° crown a couple of times. 
I also cut crown upside down and backwards against the fence. Very wide crown can be cut on the flat. I never liked cutting crown on the flat as it tends to move slightly and is a pain to clamp down on the table.
I made a bevel square just like the 6 or 8" ones you buy but mine is 18"x 24" and made from maple. I use it for outside corners as it is much more accurate than the 8" store bought ones. I divide the angle with an angle divider . I do not use the degrees shown on this tool as mine is not very accurate. Instead the tool is lined up with the edge of the throat plate,not the saw cut. I cope the crown with a saber saw after the inside miter is cut. The saw base is left at 90° and when run against the mitered cut, the coped piece is done. Usually have to sand a bit here and there with a couple of different shaped wood sticks with PSA 100 grit paper on them.
mike


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> It could be done with a hand held circular saw but it might take some doing
> ...
> If the molding is small enough you might just pick up a wooden miter box and cut it with a hand saw. You would put the molding in the miter box on an angle just like it fits on the wall.


Frankly I'm looking for the most expeditious, simplest, and least daunting method based on the resources I have.

A circular saw seems too challenging to me.
As mentioned I tried the miter box (albeit a beat-out miter box with widened kerfs) with the Ryobe but it wasn't precise. My Japanese saws _without _a rigid back, despite working on the pull, don't seem to be the tool for the job (while the ones with rigid back are too shallow in blade depth to make the cut).

The basic miters boxes I see on sale are too small to do 4.5" mitered molding. The next step up in handsaw mitering are the more complex boxes with integrated saws, which would require investing considerably in a tool I only need for four cuts. As mentioned I've made it approx. 35 years or so without one of these or a chopsaw.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

kwoodhands said:


> I cut crown with a Stanley 5x30" back saw and miterbox for years until miter saws were used. I still have this miterbox and saw but have not used it in many years. The last time I used it was cutting 12" 3 piece crown that only a 15" miter saw could handle. As the large miter saws at that time were not accurate enough for crown my Stanley miter box filled the bill.
> mike


What sort/class of miter box and what sort of saw are you specifically referring to?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> Lovegasollne... Know anybody or can you rent a miter saw go from say Home depot?


Again it seems excessive to rent a saw, lug it home and back (without a car) ... for 4 measly cuts.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

kwoodhands said:


> I've cut miles of crown molding. The 4x6 saw you show is for metal as you know. I also have a HF 4x6 and would never attempt to cut crown or any molding with it.
> 
> I believe you meant 38° instead of 45 °. Most crown is 38/52 ° although I have run into 45° crown a couple of times.
> I also cut crown upside down and backwards against the fence. Very wide crown can be cut on the flat. I never liked cutting crown on the flat as it tends to move slightly and is a pain to clamp down on the table.
> ...


???


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> Frankly I'm looking for the most expeditious, simplest, and least daunting method based on the resources I have.
> 
> A circular saw seems too challenging to me.
> As mentioned I tried the miter box (albeit a beat-out miter box with widened kerfs) with the Ryobe but it wasn't precise. My Japanese saws _without _a rigid back, despite working on the pull, don't seem to be the tool for the job (while the ones with rigid back are too shallow in blade depth to make the cut).
> ...


Without a compound miter saw it just gets more difficult. If you have a disc sander you could miter the molding on a wooden miter box and where it doesn't fit you could true it up by grinding the high places off. If the wooden miter box has sides that are too low you could make one that was bigger. If you don't like a motorized saw you might consider a saw of this type. VINTAGE HWI MITER BOX #36241 - Saw / Woodworking | eBay


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Lovegasoline said:


> Again it seems excessive to rent a saw, lug it home and back (without a car) ... for 4 measly cuts.


If they were measly cuts they would be done already. They are compound angle cuts that need a miter system of sorts, you've already determined that your manual miter box isn't viable, so a power miter box is your best option for producing an acceptable result. Other than that if you are good enough, and patient enough you might be able to mark, and use the Japanese saw, would likely be faster to just go rent a saw though.

From an install perspective I've found spring miter clamps to be very useful on outside miters like that, and a pin nailer.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Lovegasoline said:


> I'm ready to install some crown molding ... a first for me.
> But how to cut it?
> I do NOT own a chop saw!
> 
> ...


You can also cut crown on a table saw, the same way you would cut it on a miter saw if cutting the crown on the flat. You will need a miter gauge. You need to know whether the crown is a 52/38 or a 45/45. If it is other than that there are trig formulas available to calculate the angles. 52/38 the miter should be set at 31.62 and the bevel at 33.86. for 45/45 the miter would be set at 35.26 and the bevel at 30.00. In the case of a table saw your miter gauge would be the miter cut and the blade tilt will become the bevel.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

kwoodhands said:


> I believe you meant 38° instead of 45 °. Most crown is 38/52 ° although I have run into 45° crown a couple of times.
> I also cut crown upside down and backwards against the fence. Very wide crown can be cut on the flat. I never liked cutting crown on the flat as it tends to move slightly and is a pain to clamp down on the table.


I should have said whatever the spring angle is, and you’re correct, 38/52 is typical. Point is, he could do it with a custom made miter box.

I‘be tried coping crown, too steep a learning curve for me.

For anyone interested, Insider Carpentry and Carpentry TV have very good tutorials on crown.

@5:38 he shows exactly what I’m talking about.


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## FirebirdHank (Jan 25, 2021)

It seems to me that renting a saw is the best answer. The time spent making a miter box and using a hand saw probably wasted when the results were unacceptable. In the end there will be more than 4 cuts. Nobody gets their first crown molding cuts right the first time. After using a good miter saw the OP might just realize that he needs one in his shop.
The only time I ever cut crown flat is if it is too large to stand up against the fence.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've got 6" crown in the wood rack. I used it to make shelves for the grand daughter. Cut against the back on a 12" miter saw...


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

B Coll said:


> You can also cut crown on a table saw, the same way you would cut it on a miter saw if cutting the crown on the flat. You will need a miter gauge. You need to know whether the crown is a 52/38 or a 45/45. If it is other than that there are trig formulas available to calculate the angles. 52/38 the miter should be set at 31.62 and the bevel at 33.86. for 45/45 the miter would be set at 35.26 and the bevel at 30.00. In the case of a table saw your miter gauge would be the miter cut and the blade tilt will become the bevel.


Tempting. However a 10' long piece is going to be unwieldy (esp. with my single roller work support). Thanks for posting up the numbers and the method, I'll give it some thought.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

DrRobert said:


> I should have said whatever the spring angle is, and you’re correct, 38/52 is typical. Point is, he could do it with a custom made miter box.
> 
> For anyone interested, Insider Carpentry and Carpentry TV have very good tutorials on crown.


Yeah, I've watched four of his crown videos yesterday and he clearly knows his trade.
One thing I was confused about - and he explained - was spring angles. His take is that for crown on a typical 9' ceiling a 45º angle is used as that angle presents the full surface of the molding to the eye when looking up at it. Conversely on a high ceiling room for ex. a loft space, a 52º is suggested because the sight line is at a steeper angle looking up, and rotating the molding at that angle allows the surface to present itself to view (rather than being more profoundly foreshortened). Conversely, for ex. using crown on a mantle where it's viewed 'head on' at or near eye level a 38º is suggested so more of the molding presents itself to view. I'm sure there are aesthetic or other considerations that override these rules of thumb but now I have at least some idea of why the various angles exist.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

FirebirdHank said:


> It seems to me that renting a saw is the best answer. The time spent making a miter box and using a hand saw probably wasted when the results were unacceptable. In the end there will be more than 4 cuts. Nobody gets their first crown molding cuts right the first time. After using a good miter saw the OP might just realize that he needs one in his shop.
> The only time I ever cut crown flat is if it is too large to stand up against the fence.


That certainly is an option, but unless I'm convinced there's no other reasonable option, it seem excessive to rent for just this purpose.

I don't feel that I need to own one due to the size which I simply cannot justify sacrificing storage space for, plus using would require placing it on my table saw .... there is just simply no room for it in an already profoundly maxed out space so constant awkward juggling and still taking up space; many complain that it's not a super precise tool for use in finer furniture grade woodworking and I have little need for an expensive time saving construction grade tool, moreover it would be rarely used. For decades I've used my TS for making cuts and more recently gaining proficiency in using a bench hook and shooting board. Limited funds for future tool purchases are already prioritized for other more critical items. The glamour of having a new swanky machine would quickly be replaced by regret in further complicating my storage challenges. 

If repairing or installing decking or flooring, building/repairing/renovating structures, or fabrication - on any noticeable scale - of construction grade items were even _remotely_ in any _possible_ future, then sure I'd seriously consider a chop saw. As is the tool is just too far outside the parameters of my specific woodworking needs. This is one of the extremely rare times where I have a need for one.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Without a compound miter saw it just gets more difficult. If you have a disc sander you could miter the molding on a wooden miter box and where it doesn't fit you could true it up by grinding the high places off. If the wooden miter box has sides that are too low you could make one that was bigger. If you don't like a motorized saw you might consider a saw of this type. VINTAGE HWI MITER BOX #36241 - Saw / Woodworking | eBay


Unfortunately no disc sander here (just ROS).

While I'm intrigued by vintage miter boxes like old Stanleys, I'm not up to speed in that area of tools. Any but the most expensive vintage offerings are going to require too much prep and restoration esp. in getting a saw restored/sharpened (I've not yet delved into vintage saws nor ever approached saw sharpening: eventually I'll go down that avenue but other life commitments make this a poor time to open that can of worms ; ).
I've learned my lesson not to approach any such purchases casually. Any vintage tool acquisition - esp. in a whole new category of tool - includes a large investment of time for research, study, practice, restoration, repair, and maintenance ... and sometime rinse and repeat due to unforeseen flaws until one arrives where one wants to be. While always challenging, often frustrating, and usually satisfying ... I no longer approach such relationships casually! As a mentor once said to me, "Be careful what you wish for."


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Lovegasoline said:


> That certainly is an option, but unless I'm convinced there's no other reasonable option, it seem excessive to rent for just this purpose.
> 
> I don't feel that I need to own one due to the size which I simply cannot justify sacrificing storage space for, *plus using would require placing it on my table saw* .... there is just simply no room for it in an already profoundly maxed out space so constant awkward juggling and still taking up space;* many complain that it's not a super precise tool for use in finer furniture grade woodworking* and I have little need for an expensive time saving construction grade tool, moreover it would be rarely used. For decades I've used my TS for making cuts and more recently gaining proficiency in using a bench hook and shooting board. Limited funds for future tool purchases are already prioritized for other more critical items. The glamour of having a new swanky machine would quickly be replaced by regret in further complicating my storage challenges.
> 
> If repairing or installing decking or flooring, building/repairing/renovating structures, or fabrication - on any noticeable scale - of construction grade items were even _remotely_ in any _possible_ future, then sure I'd seriously consider a chop saw. As is the tool is just too far outside the parameters of my specific woodworking needs. This is one of the extremely rare times where I have a need for one.


With all due respect you sound like a college student in a dorm room. I know what that was like! Limited space, limited budget, limited time...
But those days are long gone for me, and now I have a dedicated 20 X 25 ft wood shop with more tools and machines than the space will permit.
Probably 50K worth? 
Your concerns are well founded with the exception of the miter saw not being accurate enough for fine furniture.
Any machine is only as accurate as the setup, no matter what brand or what type. Yes, certain brands have a bad rap, that apploes to only certain moels or they would be long out of business. Competition keeps the manufacturers more honest.
For 15 or 20 years I had a 3/4" plywood work top on my table saw. Easy on easy off.
When I was a teen in high school I wanted a wood shop so bad, I made an elevated bunk in my 8 ft X 10 ft bedroom over my table saw and used a step ladder against the wall to get up there. Mom was afraid I was going to fall over the side.The shop vac was up there also because it was the lightest of the other tools. I'll talk to you about limited space.

If you want to do crown, rent, beg or borrow a well maintained miter saw. You just might like it well enough to get one. Consider pawn shops as they may rent as well as sell.?


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

Lovegasoline said:


> What sort/class of miter box and what sort of saw are you specifically referring to?


The miter box is cast iron, the saw is 30" long and 5" wide with a ribbed top. I do not recall if the base swings past 45° each way. If you need to know I will go up in the loft and check it out. When the saw is raised it will stay up til the levers are lifted. I would call my Stanley miterbox and saw the best model ever produced. If I recall the saw has 12 TPI . 
The base is marked with degrees with raised numbers The fence is cast iron and If I recall has vertical ribs in the casting. 
Color is brown paint over the cast parts, probably baked on as even after all these years the paint looks new.
Thats all I can think of .
mike


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Square blocks in the corners and butt joints……..?


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

it seems that you are intent with not buying any tools to do the job, understandable. options have been offerred. crown is a job typically best suited for experienced carpenters (at least to be successful). if those do not suit you, you may consider _calling a few_ contractors to see if they will swing in and make the cuts for you. there were many days when i was contracting that i had an afternoon free and would help people like you.


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