# Sagging windows in an old house



## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Hey folks. I'm visiting my sister at her house in Indiana, which is around 100 years old. The windows are a variety I haven't seen before: they're hinged at the side, and swing open. Someone along the way installed storm windows, so it doesn't matter much that they don't really seal very well, but a lot of them sag so badly that they can't be opened and closed without a LOT of effort. Even so, it's not much: maybe as much as four or five degrees, for the worst, and mostly more in the realm of two or three for the best of the ones that won't open. Clearly they were originally a tight fit.

The obvious easy answer is to attack the bottom with a hand plane or sander, and keep removing material until they swing freely. For various reasons, mostly involving the sheer number of windows (at least 15 on the second floor, and more than that on the first floor, from memory), I'd rather not do that. I also would prefer not to start a trend of cutting them apart to make them work better....

So my question is, is there a way to bring these back into square? I'm only in town for a few more days, but if I can at least make a start on them it would be nice. I'll attach a few photos here, as well, so you can see what they look like. I apologize for the darkness of the first photo: I should have taken it yesterday, when it was dark and cloudy out! 

The windows in the frame: notice they're both sagging at the middle of the frame:








One window out of the frame; there's more detail here, because it's not backlit. This is one that wasn't able to close due to sagging.









Any suggestions would be appreciated!


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## shadowjfaith (Mar 31, 2014)

Not too many houses in Indiana with hinged windows, mostly sashes if they haven't been replaced. I've only had one in the attic, but it was never opened. Not to sure of a solution for you other than what you have listed, but will be following.

Good luck.


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## nbo10 (Jan 26, 2011)

If you wait for the season to change, the wood will probably move . the windows might open and close freely.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Are the windows out of square, or is the problem with the hinges/frame? IOW, if the top of the window could be drawn closer to the frame, and the bottom be moved towards the center, would they work?








 








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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Can't give any real advice from windows out of the jamb,or from the picture of the inside.You need to first check the reveal from the outside.Put a level on the hinge side and see if it is plumb and flat.Measure the diagonals of the jamb and the windows.Like cabinetman said ,it could be a window issue or a hinge issue.Can't tell with the info provided.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I can tell you how to fix it if I know what the real problem is.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

My folks' old house has a ton of those. As mentioned, some would stick if the wood had absorbed moisture. It will still help to seal them in the winter (plastic sheet or mortite). Besides loose hinges, general rot, or joints failing, look for gobs of built up paint/caulk, and check the exterior to see that's keeping the water out. Then there's general settling in the walls of old houses, in case that didn't stabilize long ago.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It looks to me like the wood is somewhat rotten especially at the joints. This may be the reason for them sagging. If the wood is solid and the joints are just loose they could be re-glued. I would start with stripping as much of the old paint off as possible and then see what repairs need to be made.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

nbo10 said:


> If you wait for the season to change, the wood will probably move . the windows might open and close freely.


Unfortunately, this was going on in December as well... it might be a little worse now, but they're about the same winter or late spring. I haven't tried summer yet.



cabinetman said:


> Are the windows out of square, or is the problem with the hinges/frame? IOW, if the top of the window could be drawn closer to the frame, and the bottom be moved towards the center, would they work?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





mako1 said:


> Can't give any real advice from windows out of the jamb,or from the picture of the inside.You need to first check the reveal from the outside.Put a level on the hinge side and see if it is plumb and flat.Measure the diagonals of the jamb and the windows.Like cabinetman said ,it could be a window issue or a hinge issue.Can't tell with the info provided.


Really it's both. The hinge side of the frame is straight, but none of them are exactly plumb, as far as I can tell. I have an improvised plumb line, not a level (forgot that at home), so best guess is all I can give. That said, it's definitely the case that both the windows and the frames are out of square.



Steve Neul said:


> It looks to me like the wood is somewhat rotten especially at the joints. This may be the reason for them sagging. If the wood is solid and the joints are just loose they could be re-glued. I would start with stripping as much of the old paint off as possible and then see what repairs need to be made.


The wood is damaged in places but not rotten anywhere that I can find. There's an inner frame that they butt up against, between the swinging window and the storm window, and that's rotting all over, but the windows and the frames where they attach are somehow all solid. The rot also all looks old to me; most of it has been painted over at least once, and I suspect most of it predates the storm windows.

The joints are tight in the sense that they don't move with hand pressure, but some appear to have separated slightly, just enough to break the paint. I can't say whether they've really separated, or if that's just an artifact of the wood moving over time, though.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It sounds like it's mainly wood movement affecting the joints. I would go ahead and chemically strip the paint off the windows so you can come back clean. You may need to rebuild the jamb so you can properly re-insall them to get everything running plumb and true. Any wood you use to rebuild with I would use pressure treated. It doesn't cost very much more and will last nearly forever. The only down side is if it is fresh from the factory and wet it may take a couple months before you can paint it.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Steve, thanks! Any advice on straightening the existing joints? Anything needing to be broken down and rebuilt I can probably figure out (and probably won't happen this trip), but I have no idea how to go about do that. Or is it just down to rebuilding the jam to allow the windows to hang at an angle?



In other notes on this house, in the past three days I have:
1) brought in a locksmith to break open the back door, which was permanently locked shut by a broken knob,
2) interviewed a bunch of insulation contractors, since there was frost on the living room floor this winter, 
3) helped remove the 100+ year old wrought iron fence so it can be stripped and re-painted before re-installation,
4) put in additional drain piping to get water from the downspouts to NOT pool directly against an already damaged part of the foundation,
5) bought parts so my father could replace a dead light fixture, which had no insulation AT ALL remaining on the wires, 
6) and started taking measurements to figure out how much of the deck has to be replaced to be safe.

Tomorrow is working on some more of the windows, and trimming a bush that's trying to tear the shingles off the side of the house.
I think I'm going to have to visit either more or less often, and I'm not sure which.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*get out or buy a framing square*

Check the intersections of the vertical and top and bottom pieces for square. Then check the window in the corresponding corners for square.
There is not a whole lot you can do if the window frame itself is not square, but you can resquare the window. Get it back into square using a diagonal clamp and then run a dowel or 2 into the horizontals using glue into the holes.
The hinge screws must be tight and secure, if not glue and peg the holes and redrill the screw holes.

Disassembling the windows does not seem a reasonable solution to me unless the wood is beyond repair....


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Check the intersections of the vertical and top and bottom pieces for square. Then check the window in the corresponding corners for square.
> There is not a whole lot you can do if the window frame itself is not square, but you can resquare the window. Get it back into square using a diagonal clamp and then run a dowel or 2 into the horizontals using glue into the holes.
> The hinge screws must be tight and secure, if not glue and peg the holes and redrill the screw holes.
> 
> Disassembling the windows does not seem a reasonable solution to me unless the wood is beyond repair....


Ahhh.... that's what I was hoping for: a way to get these things back into square. By "diagonal clamp" you mean a regular bar or pipe clamp, placed corner to opposite corner? Or is it a special tool?

Drilling and pegging sounds like a reasonable way to keep it square once it's been straightened... that was another piece I'd been trying to figure out.

Thanks!


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## Manuka Jock (Jun 27, 2011)

mako1 said:


> Can't give any real advice from windows out of the jamb,or from the picture of the inside.You need to first check the reveal from the outside.Put a level on the hinge side and see if it is plumb and flat.Measure the diagonals of the jamb and the windows.Like cabinetman said ,it could be a window issue or a hinge issue.Can't tell with the info provided.


+1

Please photos of the edges of the opened window sashes , preferably after they have had the paint removed , so that we can see the method of construction

Check out this page , see if any diagrams fit the bill 

https://www.google.co.nz/search?tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AZFQU-i_JcTJkQWsrIDgCQ&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=634&q=window%20sash%20mortise%20tenon%20wedge


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*right on both*

A pipe clamp diagonal across the opposing corners will bring the window frame back to square, but go real easy so's not to crack the glass. You can check it as you go with the framing square.

If the corner is not square, then there is a solution, but it gets ugly.
By prying the frame away from the wall into the opening you can close the angle. Then a shim will keep it in position. The nails may want to pull through and a number of pry bars will be needed to avoid destroying the wood....ugly....

You may want to make a bench and clamp arrangement to make planing down the edges in a vertical position easier. An old hollow cabinet with the doors removed and stood on it's back will give a 4 sided opening to clamp to.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> Steve, thanks! Any advice on straightening the existing joints? Anything needing to be broken down and rebuilt I can probably figure out (and probably won't happen this trip), but I have no idea how to go about do that. Or is it just down to rebuilding the jam to allow the windows to hang at an angle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You might trim a little bit off the outer edge of the windows to square them as much as possible and just make a jamb to fit how the windows hang. As long as they closed right most people couldn't see them a little crooked.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

amckenzie4 said:


> Any advice on straightening the existing joints?
> 
> 2) interviewed a bunch of insulation contractors, since there was frost on the living room floor this winter,
> 
> 4) put in additional drain piping to get water from the downspouts to NOT pool directly against an already damaged part of the foundation,



If it were me, I'd IGNORE the windows until I had dealt with both bulk exterior water from coming in (including foundation), as interior water vapor going OUT (meaning into the wall and then condensing before it gets to cool outside air). Or flip it.... If the place gets AC in humid summer, the reverse is true too. Humid air coming into the wall from outside, and then condensing on the cooler wall sheathing. Any moisture near the windows is just going to make ongoing trouble.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

From your description attempting to get the windows square by cross clamping would likely damage the windows or at the least compromise whatever glue joints that are intact. The propensity to break the glass would be high. IMO, this fix is a common one to retrofit to existing jambs. Making the window to fit the opening would be the easiest fix. 

It may only take cutting or sanding one edge. It could be simpler than that. 

If part of the problem is on the hinge side, check to see if both leaves are tight to the mortise. 

Check to see if any of the screw heads have come loose or are protruding not allowing the window frame to lay flat to the jamb.

Check to see if the jamb member is loose or protruding.

Check to see if the leaves are flat to the frame/jamb, or if the mortises could be made a bit deeper.

You can perform a few diagnostics to help determine what the conditions are and maybe develop a plan of how to fix. With the door in an almost closed position see if there is any play which could account for the misfit. You should be able to tell how much overlap is preventing closure. Look at the edge that doesn't fit, as it may be fixed with a few swipes with a block plane.

Generally speaking, I would attempt to fix what's there instead of making new jambs. The old window frames wouldn't be a fit to a new jamb. You would need to replace the jamb and window frames. Even with that, with the age of the house, and settling, doing that would require making pre-hung jambs, and windows, allowing for an out of square condition (and correcting) the rough opening.

It could also be an extreme expansion/contraction from the ambient conditions. A real hot sunny day may allow an easy closure. So, you want them to work properly, but don't create an excessive fix. My front door faces west. During the summer, it can be direct sunlight, 100° outside, and 75° inside. In a very humid day, like 100%, the door will be tight, but operable. In the winter, with 40° outside, and 75° inside, and 40% humidity, the gap would be way too big, if I dressed the door for gaps to work well based just on the summer conditions. So, a happy medium has to be achieved by just planing off enough for minimal clearance.








 







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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> Generally speaking, I would attempt to fix what's there instead of making new jambs.


Also my thought, when water & HVAC are controlled


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the advice, folks. Things got crazy midweek, and I never got back online before I left. It looks like while the will to fix the windows is there, the time and funds are not. Some of the windows will clearly need to be reframed, but a few of them probably just need minor sanding or planing to fit, and those will get fixed this summer. There are a couple more than we may try to straighten out slightly, and those will get checked this year. For the rest, they'll be sealed as well as possible and we'll worry about them next summer, when we have more time to think about it.

Thanks again!


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

fwiw - the task would be extremely difficult to "square up" every operating window of an old house, casement or otherwise. because the window pocket is likely not square, and squaring an opening also would be a super difficult task. the best method is to fit each window to it's existing opening, so an assessment of each window is required.

since many old windows get painted in, that interfering paint will need to be removed, form the sash and the frame. then reinstall sash and evaluate operation, correct by removing wood from sash where it rubs. 

if joint rework is required, that will need done before fitting.


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## MGP Roofing (Jul 10, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> From your description attempting to get the windows square by cross clamping would likely damage the windows or at the least compromise whatever glue joints that are intact. The propensity to break the glass would be high. IMO, this fix is a common one to retrofit to existing jambs. Making the window to fit the opening would be the easiest fix.
> 
> It may only take cutting or sanding one edge. It could be simpler than that.
> 
> ...


+1. I am slowly working my way through my own house, that has the same issues with many of the windows, loose hinge screws, too many layers of paint, etc.


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