# router spiral bit grabs, ruins cut



## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I am making small sliding lid jewelry boxes for Orange County Toymakers charity. Using a solid block 2" x 3" x 1 1/2", I hog out the inside and cut for a dovetail sliding lid. My problem is that the 1/2" up-cut spiral bit, as I run into the corners sometimes grabs the grain in two of the corners and drags the bit/router body outside the intended cut line. I am moving the workpiece upside down counter clockwise within my jig, so against the rotation direction of the flutes. I tried once to do a climb cut, but got the work taken out of my hands an flung across the shop, so I am leery of that approach. 

Here are pics of my jig, the workpiece before routing, and two with damaged corners.





































Can anyone tell me how to avoid that corner tear-out?


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

How deep of a cut are you taking, Bruce? Is it possible to do the cut on a larger piece and then cut it down to the size you need just to be safer and have more to hold for the cut?

David


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Maybe this will work for you?

MLCS 7488 1/2-Inch Diameter Solid Carbide Downcut Spiral Router Bit
Image result for MLCS 7488 1/2-Inch Diameter Solid Carbide Downcut Spiral Router Bit
MLCS solid carbide spiral bit. 2 flute flat bottom cutters. Top quality micro grain solid carbide. Down cut spirals help hold the material in place while using handheld routers. Will plunge cut and plane edges. *Eliminates chipping at the top of the cut.* Ideal for soft and hard woods, plywoods and composites, laminates, plastics and some non-ferrous metals
Technical Details
Manufacturer	MLCS
Part Number	7488
Item Weight	3.2 ounces
Package Dimensions	2.8 x 0.8 x 0.7 inches
Item model number	7488
Material	Carbide


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Maybe drill the corners out (undersize) before drilling the center areas? Leaving less in the corners for the router bit to remove.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

The wood is not moving into the bit, but is held tightly to the side of the jig. It appears that the bit is dragging itself beyond the limits of the jig by as much as 3/64". As that corner of the work (and to a lesser extent, the opposite corner) moves into the bit, there is a lot of vibration and noise, The result is the cut not being straight into the corner, but veering outward. Note that the other corner on the same side is nice and straight because the work moves across grain on the short side into that corner, then works its way out along the long side.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I suppose I could drill the corners before hogging out the center with the Forstner bit, but that would treble the work time of that step and require another setup. This is not a one-off item. I'm committed to make a couple hundred of these little boxes in batches of 24 to 30 at a time.

I'm hoping to find a simpler solution, if I can.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

The problem is not chipping at top of cut. Note that the second picture has no chip out but both of them have corner cuts distorted. Any chip-out disappears with the next step of cutting with the dovetail bit for the sliding lid track.










I cannot imagine how to use a moving router on a 2" x 3" work piece with any accuracy at all.

On the router table, a down-cut would tend to push the work up out of my jig, making it twice as difficult to hold the work, and it would still have the problem of grabbing the grain going into those two corners and distorting the cut.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thank you all for offering your help. Here's a little more information.

I am running the bit at the manufacturer's recommended 16,000 rpm. If the bit is grabbing wood grain as it progresses (relatively, of course, since actually the wood is moving over the bit) in the direction of the grain into the problem corners, would higher rpm help or make the problem worse?

I suspect that a climb cut along the short, cross grain side into that corner might not let the bit grab the grain, but I am not strong enough to keep it from terrifyingly ripping the piece out of my hands.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

your project is fraught with risks, because of the depth of cut required, just removing too much material. a down cut will minimize the tearout at the cuts edge for sure. but, i highly recommend you find a different approach to the box. or buy a small cnc.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I'll try to explain this approach .....*











This is on the right track. You need a large area around the block to support the router base. You do not want to hand hold the workpiece for this!

You need to secure the block after you drop it into the opening which is made very precisely to fit. A threaded insert and rod the clamps the block in place ..... maybe two, one on each side at 90 degrees?

The top of the block must be flush with the larger surrounding area.
A rectangular frame/jig is attached to the "surround" to limit the router travel such that it creates the desired opening in the block.

Assuming your router base is round will make that easier. Two "L" shaped pieces can be adjusted to create the jig.

Once the block is secured inside the drop hole and the jig is screwed to the surround, you can begin with a shallow cut like 1/4" or so, moving the router inside the frame in the correct direction. This first cut will minimize tearout. Then you can make a second or third cut down to final depth.

You will not be hand holding the block which is totally unsafe. The drop in jig will secure the block well enough to permit the router to cut smoothly without vibration. This is critical. The jig is much like a milling vise on the vertical milling machine which can take very strong cutting forces in metal. The first cut it also critical for a clean result. Adjust the depth to get the best result.

Actually, a small vertical mill with a CNC control would eliminate the router altogether, but I don't think the RPMs would be fast enough for a clean cut in wood. A CNC router is the perfect method as suggested above. 

Another approach is to bandsaw out the center opening by making an entrance cut for the blade and then gluing it back together. This would require a separate bottom also glued on afterwards.

If only you could "mold" wood in a press like plastic injection molding, this would be a perfect application. :vs_cool:


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

First and foremost, thank you for your hard work and contributions to the Orange County Toymakers program, especially during these challenging times. 

You mentioned your concern about the downcut spiral bit, but have you considered one of the new(-ish?) "compression" spiral bits? They are also known as "up/down" spiral bits. I have never tried one, but they "upcut" in the bottom and "downcut" at the top. 

MLCS #7425 is their 1/2 inch version:
https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics2/TM25spiral.pdf
https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_solid.html
(Scroll down, #7425 is near the bottom)

Here is a Whiteside version:
https://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-Router-Bits-UD5122-Compression/dp/B000K2EH3E


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Another approach is to bandsaw out the center opening by making an entrance cut for the blade and then gluing it back together. This would require a separate bottom also glued on afterwards.


great idea!!


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Definitely down cut/Plunge corners first/Be sure everything is solidly held in place/Go slow.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

"...but I am not strong enough to keep it from terrifyingly ripping the piece out of my hands."


how about a big plate with a cut out/hole for the work pc, perhaps some wedges or side clamps to keep it tight, plus knobs/handles/grips.


give you a big chunk-o-wood to hang onto, and gets your fingers away from the bits that bite....


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

woodnthings andTomCT2 are steering you in the right direction. Cutting force is controlled with mass, rigidity, and leverage. Hand holding a small workpiece gives you none of these. As Tom says, this small workpiece should be securely held by mechanical clamps in a large, heavy fixture with solid, comfortable handles spaced widely apart. I also like to have a table pin 6" to 12" from the spindle that one edge of the fixture can slide against. On a shaper these are sometimes called starting pins since they are so useful in plunge cuts which are especially prone to kickback. Used as a fixed fulcrum they greatly increase control at moments when the movement of the workpiece against the cutterhead must be smooth and unwavering.


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

*I*

It's risky holding that tiny workpiece with your hands.

I'd start by hogging more wood, and just use the router for cleanup. And then, limit depth to 1/2" at a time. The router won't crack a sweat.

Then, I'd make an upside-down sled. A piece of baltic birch, 4-5x the length and width of the piece. Lay the workpiece near the center, and immobilize it with four short hardwood cleats screwed to the sled. Short so they don't hit your fence...

Now, flip the whole thing over, placing the box inside your fences. There will be a couple of handles on this "top" side. Your down pressure will keep the box forced against the table, and tight to the sled in the vertical direction.

At this point, with the piece quite stable, and your hands 8" or more away from the bit, a climb cut should be no problem - especially with pre-hogged wood, and limited depth.

I don't think it's your problem, but a bit of masking tape on the corners can help with any surface chip out.

I think the stability will eliminate chatter, and the 'drift' you were seeing.

Placing each successive workpiece in the sled may not require any moving of the cleats. If your tolerances are close, use some chopped up playing cards for shims to wedge it in.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Moose, I think I can visualize part of your "upside down sled" idea, but 5 times the length and width would make it a 15" x 10" sled.

The hardwood cleats idea makes no picture in my mind. How would I hold the box on the under side of the sled?

With such a big sled, how would I see to place my box inside the jig? As it is, I have to pivot the piece a little while putting it in the jig so as to gently plunge the bit into the bottom of the box. taking off 1/32" of material to smooth out the forstner bit grooves.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Could that sled/holder be made in two parts, each part with two cleats forming a corner? If there were a bit of a gap between the holder halves, with some sort of clamping mechanism (ideally a quick connect, eccentric cam lever) to try to force the corners together against the corners of the work piece, it would be held tightly. A handle on each half would give me a firm grip. What do you think?

Still a visibility problem, though.


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

A VERY dumb question here. 

Have you tried moving the router in a clockwise direction?


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## fareastern (Sep 19, 2014)

I have a horrible feeling that continuing to make these items in the same way will one day lead to a post regretting your ability to count to ten has been seriously impaired.If I _had _to make them I'm fairly sure I would do it by making a router jig for use with a guide bush and would do it with the stock in a length that would yield several parts and cross cutting them after routing.The jig-and stock-would be clamped down to the bench securely and I would use the depth stops on the router to allow several passes.I would also tend to use a straight or downcut tool.I have never yet used a compression tool with a hand held router and wonder whether the considerable cost would be justified.
The alternative of a fixture on a CNC router would also be very good,just as long as you have such a machine handy.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Using a jig or a fixture?*

here's the difference explained:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=di9fference+between+a+jig+and+a+fixture
Quote:
A *jig* is often confused *with a fixture*; a *fixture* holds the work *in a* fixed location. A device that does both functions (holding the work and guiding a tool) is called a *jig*. An example of a *jig* is when a key is duplicated; the original is used as a *jig* so the new key can have the same path as the old one.


A fixture holds the part for it's cutting or routing operation.
A jig may hold the machine or the workpiece and does both operations depending.
Splitting hairs a bit I suppose but, what I have proposed is a fixture to secure the part in. I like routing from above the workpiece rather than "upside down" as on a router table for small parts so I can see what actually happening. The large surround I proposed carries the weight of the router and also provides a smooth level support.
The router base is framed in by stops to limit it's movement in the X and Y directions. 

I suppose you could make an upside down fixture to hold the part on the router table, BUT elevating the bit into the work for each pass requires a lift or a router with an above the table height adjustment. And limiting the travel in X and Y may prove more difficult .... probably requiring stop on the fence and the table.

For long, straight runs, a router table is fine or for the ends of short boards for rail and stiles then a table is best. It still requires a secure means to hold the material, preferably clamped.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

if I ruled the world . . . I'd try this:








the notch is the size of the work pc but slightly short, so that 

(a) put work pc in notch
(b) squeeze tight end-to-end with clamp block 
(c) tighten nuts on all thread to hold everything securely.
obviously you'll need decent width/length cut accuracy - the clamping will not accommodate +/- 1/4"

the clamp block needs to be able to slide - so elongated hole(s) required either thru the block or thru the notched body "legs"

given all the center material hogged out, I wonder if the up-spiral is necessary.
the up cut is most useful for grooves/deep dados/mortises where there's no place for the chips to go....
if you're using a vacuum collection, chips thrown into the hogged out area should 'disappear' in the air stream.....


I'd also be tempted to use some spacers in the router table jig to first knock off the big chunks between bore holes, then a second pass with less variable force needed.... taking a light skim pass is always easier than heavy cuts....


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## hoowasat (Dec 2, 2019)

difalkner said:


> How deep of a cut are you taking, Bruce? Is it possible to do the cut on a larger piece and then cut it down to the size you need just to be safer and have more to hold for the cut?
> 
> David


I agree with David in that it seems you may need to remove material using multiple passes. You're getting tear-out where the bit is cutting against the grain. Perhaps 2 fixtures would help ... the first for incremental passes until you are almost at full depth ... and the second to finish cut the outer surfaces and bottom.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

My Leigh FMT makes similar shaped mortises by holding the wood securely and using a plunge router to hog out the wood. Maybe you need to rethink using a router table.

It is quick, less then a minute to route normal sized mortises. Safe, plunging keeps your hands far away from the workpiece. Clean, never had chipping like you show.

Like others have suggested, leave the work pieces as long as possible, mark the center of your holes and slide the workpiece along, using a plunge router and template on top to hog out the wood.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I appreciate the concern for safety, but doing holes on a large piece of stock, then cutting afterward is impossible. The whole point of the dovetail sliding-lid box is to cut the lid from the same piece of VG lumber such that when the dovetail cut is made and the lid is cut with matching 14º edges, the closed lid becomes almost invisible. I must work with 2" x 3" x 1 3/4" blanks.

Moosie's suggestion to make a holder fixture with which to move the work piece, with large handles farther apart to give me better grip and keep fingers away from 16,000 rpm sharp things appeals to me. Moving the work instead of the router means that I can keep the router mounted to the table where it must be in order to do the dovetail cuts and the rounding-over of the edges of the finished boxes. 

So would a CNC machine appeal to me, if I had the thousands of dollars to buy one that could handle a 1/2" spiral bit and if I had sufficient space in my shop for it.


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

brucet999 said:


> Moose, I think I can visualize part of your "upside down sled" idea, but 5 times the length and width would make it a 15" x 10" sled.
> 
> The hardwood cleats idea makes no picture in my mind. How would I hold the box on the under side of the sled?
> 
> With such a big sled, how would I see to place my box inside the jig? As it is, I have to pivot the piece a little while putting it in the jig so as to gently plunge the bit into the bottom of the box. taking off 1/32" of material to smooth out the forstner bit grooves.


I was off with the 5x sled size. Mentally I was trying to get your hands away from that bit. Maybe sled isn't the right word. More like 'handle'. See my attached diagrams (very quickly done, so use your imagination).

Green is router table, and green cyl is the bit. Yellow workpc. I don't show your fence that limits travel. You just need to be aware of heights so my cleats don't hit your fence. Cleats are in blue. Attached permanently to the red sled/handle. The red cyls are just grab points (handles for the handle). You could set your workpc over the non-spinning bit, and fit the cleat/sled down over the top. Lay it on top. Press down. You control the piece, even though it's not attached to the sled. Now push the workpc around in whichever lateral motion you want (climb cut even).

This whole idea, and any other, IMO, must be only for skim cleanup. Like the last 1/16. Take very small bites. Visibility might be an issue, but in a way it's more psychological, no? You have the stops/fences. You have the piece firmly pressed to the table. You can't see the inside of the box anyway... But, you could use 1/4" plexi for the sled.


Re the skim cleanup, here's an example that may help. I make solid body guitars. I cut the body shape out of an 8/4 blank with a bandsaw, zipping around the curves using a 1/4" blade and staying mebbe 3/16" from my line. Then it gets a ride on the bench and spindle sanders, removing wood all the way to just kissing the pencil line. All that's left is probably 1/32". Because there's so little wood for the router, I can run the Whiteside 2" CL spiral at full height, running it around that body, in both directions. There's no hint of danger or fear. But if I were to leave a fat 1/16" on there instead? I might lose something, and not just the workpiece. I see your situation as similar, just inside-out, and much smaller, closer.

Hope this helps a bit.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I am with those who suggest making a workbench holder for the workpiece with a template above the workpiece. Use a plunge router with a guide bushing from above.

It is easy to set the plunge depth to make several passes, starting with a shallow pass.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks @moosie. I thought about your suggestion and at last pictured the cleats much as you have drawn them. I plan to make a fixture similar, but split into two pieces along a line perpendicular to a line drawn from one corner of my rectangular work piece to the opposite one. Today I bought a cam clamp at Rockler and will use that with a bolt through two cleats fastened on the top of the fixture halves so that it will quickly clamp the cleats firmly to the work piece and allow a quick release as well. The blanks are 1 9/16" high, so 5/8" cleats will leave plenty of clearance from my 3/4" thick limiting jig mounted to the table.

I plan to use @Dave McCann's suggestion to first drill out the corners of the blank, using a 1/2" forstner bit just 1/16" in from the final dimensions of the corners, then switch to my 1 1/4" forstner to drill right, left, and center. That should leave just a little bit of clean-up to do with the spiral bit. 

My Bosch router motor can be raised in 1/2" increments, so to be extra safe, I'll run a first pass at 11/16" depth, then second at full 1 3/16" depth. For 70% of the first-batch pieces, hand held, I got good clean cuts even with only the two 1 1/4" forstner bores, so I am confident that the problem will be solved.


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## fareastern (Sep 19, 2014)

brucet999 said:


> I appreciate the concern for safety, but doing holes on a large piece of stock, then cutting afterward is impossible. The whole point of the dovetail sliding-lid box is to cut the lid from the same piece of VG lumber such that when the dovetail cut is made and the lid is cut with matching 14º edges, the closed lid becomes almost invisible. I must work with 2" x 3" x 1 3/4" blanks.
> 
> Moosie's suggestion to make a holder fixture with which to move the work piece, with large handles farther apart to give me better grip and keep fingers away from 16,000 rpm sharp things appeals to me. Moving the work instead of the router means that I can keep the router mounted to the table where it must be in order to do the dovetail cuts and the rounding-over of the edges of the finished boxes.
> 
> So would a CNC machine appeal to me, if I had the thousands of dollars to buy one that could handle a 1/2" spiral bit and if I had sufficient space in my shop for it.



I'm having difficulty with understanding the problem. For this kind of job I would rip the strip that makes the sliding lids after pencilling a few locating lines on one edge to assist with correct alignment.Having a longer blank to work with also reduces the chances of pieces splintering out in the corners as the greater length of material between the pockets increases the force required to generate breakout.I see at least one other poster agrees with the notion of using a template from above but given the requirement to leave the router mounted,the alternative jig will work.


Just for information,my home made CNC router has a work area of about 14"X10" and cost me about the same as a decent half inch router.Plus a bit of thinking.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

"...then switch to my 1 1/4" forstner to drill right, left, and center."


fyi....

this may be very problematic without iron fisted clamping.
it's a "interrupted cut" - the bit will likely "trip" on the pointy bits left from the left/right drill holes.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks for the pointer. Maybe I should drill center first, then left and right held against the stops.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

I'd be tempted to do six half inch drills, then the left/right 1.25 inch. that will leave a consistent flat platform for the big drill.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

TomCT2 said:


> I'd be tempted to do six half inch drills, then the left/right 1.25 inch. that will leave a consistent flat platform for the big drill.


Tom,
Nice layout, Having a guide plate for the 1/2 inch holes, would allow for consistent and quick positioning of the drill.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

TomCT2 said:


> I'd be tempted to do six half inch drills, then the left/right 1.25 inch. that will leave a consistent flat platform for the big drill.


What does "consistent flat platform" mean? 

From the first picture you can see that I ground off the brad point of an old 1 1/4" forstner so I could drill deeper, leaving less for the spiral bit to clean up. I don't want to ruin my 1/2" forstner by grinding its point off, so I can only drill about 1/8" shallower than the 1 1/4" bit. Still, those little benches should be no problem for the router bit.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

forstner have a big flat blade on the bottom - a flat, symmetrical, consistent "surface" to drill thru gets the best results. spade bits have similar issues but even worse.



if you've every tried to make a half-round notch at the edge of a board.... that's the same issue. the bit will not want to drill straight, it will wander away from straight toward the 'empty' side. for notches, I clamp up some scrap and drill a "complete" hole....


which is also the issue drilling thru the two 'points' in the center - the bit 'catches' on them - either the wood gets torn up or it breaks loose from the clamping, and that's another mess....


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This would make all this much easier ....*

Originally Posted by *woodnthings*  
Another approach is to bandsaw out the center opening by making an entrance cut for the blade and then gluing it back together. This would require a separate bottom also glued on afterwards.




TimPa said:


> great idea!!



The glue line(s) would be virtually invisible and the center "waste material" would be gone in less than a minute.... WAG? :surprise2:



Start with a long strip as thick and as wide as the finished block. Slice 1/2" or 3/8" off the bottom but keep the orientation for the glue up later. Crosscut into smaller lengths as desired. Using a holding fixture, rout out the centers using the fixture for uniformity. There will be very little to remove after the bandsaw cut, saving time and wear and tear on both the router and the cutter. Glue the bottoms on, close up the saw kerf, sand it all flush and "away you go" :wink:


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thank you, Moosie, for the idea for a clamping fixture with handles to hold my little box blanks with hands safely away from the bit. Here is what I made, including quick release cam clamp. The little bit with the string is a spacer to keep the two halves from canting inward when I put pressure on the clamp.



















I have no idea why the two pics show up at different sizes. Oh well.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

@ TomCT2, I appreciate your warning about trying to use the 1 1/4" bits at the ends after drilling the center. I hadn't done the math to realize that each one would be working on 1/2" of wood surface.

I modified my jig for quick change from a set-up for 6 borings with 1/2" forstner bits, to the two borings with 1 1/4" forstner, using just a couple of inserts. No need to re-align and re-clamp the jig to my drill press table.


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

brucet999 said:


> Thank you, Moosie, for the idea for a clamping fixture with handles to hold my little box blanks with hands safely away from the bit. Here is what I made, including quick release cam clamp. The little bit with the string is a spacer to keep the two halves from canting inward when I put pressure on the clamp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make prettier jigs than I do... :smile2:

Does it help with the original problem?


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

Bruce - if this is going to be an on-going project,
can you have another drill press and router in your budget ?
if you are getting into a crunch with changing bits and cutters,
more tools in the assembly line can lessen the "handling hassle" greatly.
especially if it is just you on the assembly line.
looking forward to following your journey in this project.

John

.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Maybe this drilling machine will work for you?*



John Smith_inFL said:


> Bruce - if this is going to be an on-going project,
> can you have another drill press and router in your budget ?
> if you are getting into a crunch with changing bits and cutters,
> more tools in the assembly line can lessen the "handling hassle" greatly.
> ...



I stumbled across this small "drill press" pm Amazon, but it looks like it would be perfect for hogging out the center portions of your blocks with a sharp Forstner bit of the correct size AND it's cheap at $107.00 with free Prime shipping. Mostly a 4 star rating what ever that's worth? I am considering a purchase myself even though I already have 4 drill presses. :|
There are some issues with the power cord which should be clarified. See the reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/MINIQ-Electr...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=DNHTGT1GZDV9NB2S3AKM












A more traditional drill press at less than $100.00:
https://www.amazon.com/WEN-4208-5-S...FSH6EK4V3PP&psc=1&refRID=V56SJH1G4FSH6EK4V3PP


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

the pix don't show up on my machine - 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com apparently isn't public?


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I'm sorry. Google Photos ruined Picasaweb when they took over. Apparently there is no longer a way to make an album public. 

I don't understand how @moosie could see the pics, though. Now I can't even see them on Woodworking talk.

OK, I just discovered the drag & drop feature


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks, but budget aside, I have limited shop space. For some strange reason, my wife thinks my shop, with the big door from the driveway, is a place to park her car.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

moosie said:


> You make prettier jigs than I do... :smile2:
> 
> Does it help with the original problem?


I expect @TomCT2's suggestion to drill corners and center edges with 1/2" forstner to eliminate the grabbing problem and your jig-with-handles idea to make it safer.

I'll find out in a few days with the next batch.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

now _that's_ a good looking grabber thingie!


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

TomCT2 said:


> now _that's_ a good looking grabber thingie!


So that's the technical term for it!

All the round-overs make it nicer looking for sure, but the real reason for them is that at my age, with thin skin and on blood thinners, I don't want sharp edges and corners near the hand-holds.


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

brucet999 said:


> Thanks, but budget aside, I have limited shop space. For some strange reason, my wife thinks my shop, with the big door from the driveway, is a place to park her car.


When I decided three years ago to turn my side of the garage into a shop, the first hint to the wife was after a machine was delivered.

"What's that big green thing in the garage?"

"It's a shop, not a garage. And it's a drill press. I gotta great deal, I've always needed one, you just never realized, and I'll use it the rest of my life."

Which odds were that afternoon that it would be a _short_ life :vs_laugh:


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

moosie said:


> When I decided three years ago to turn my side of the garage into a shop, the first hint to the wife was after a machine was delivered.
> 
> "What's that big green thing in the garage?"
> 
> ...


what is going to guide the cut?


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

TimPa said:


> what is going to guide the cut?


Are you referring to the 'handle thingie'? It's my understanding the OP already has a custom fence surrounding the workpiece. It was just a matter of holding the piece safely, and firmly against the fence to eliminate chatter. And of course the suggestions from various others to remove more wood first.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

See second pic in opening post.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

moosie said:


> Are you referring to the 'handle thingie'? It's my understanding the OP already has a custom fence surrounding the workpiece. It was just a matter of holding the piece safely, and firmly against the fence to eliminate chatter. And of course the suggestions from various others to remove more wood first.





brucet999 said:


> See second pic in opening post.



This photo?


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I can't figure out how to delete a bungled post


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks again Tom.

I implemented your 6 x 2 bores idea and glad I did. I have no doubt now that doing 1 1/4" bores first would not have turned out well.

Here is my jig for 1/2" holes. I later found that 1/2" forstner can't clear debris well, so had to use many short plunges and clear the bit. I switched to a 1/2" brad point drill bit to vastly speed up the operation.

The "center point" is an indent to use to align the jig with the chuck next time I have to set it up.

And setup for 1 1/4" holes:



And the result ready for the router table.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

I see a bit of cross grain tear out, even from the forstner bit.... what is the eventual finish to the piece?
sometimes a coat of varnish/urethane is just enough 'glue' to eliminate fine tear out...
is it possible to 'pre-finish' the top surface, even if it later gets retouched?


with so much material hogged out, I think a down spiral/cut bit would work - another thing to try if the tear out becomes an issue.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Next step is to rout out the inside to a nice rectangle with 1/2" rounded corners and to even up the various drill depths for a flat bottom inside. I'll have to see whether I need to do that in two depth steps or if, with so little material to remove along the sides now, I can save a lot of time and do it all in one go. Doing a batch of 37 pieces this time.

Then the dovetail routing will be done for the sliding lid, taking away any tear-out from the hogging out steps.

BTW, I found that by making my stop-blocks with 30º points, I don't have to waste time thoroughly cleaning out debris from the previous piece; just sweep the one edge and the points with a fingertip; no corner build-up to deal with.

I just realized that I haven't included a pic of the final product. This one is poorly focused, but will give you the idea:


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i truly hope it goes well for you. my fear is that this is still not going to be an easy router task for you. i hope i am wrong, but i think you will need to make extra's...

it is a great looking project, and you should be commended for your effort!


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Tried it today with bit at the full 1 5/16" "depth" (it's a router table, so actually 1 5/16" above the table), which amounted to 1/32" deeper than the 1 1/4" forstner (with center brad point ground off) bores. I started with the softest wood first -African mahogany - and it worked flawlessly. Then I progressed to sapele, walnut, maple and finally white oak; all cut cleanly and easily with not a hint of grab. So I ran the other 37 pieces at a rate of about 2 minutes per; clamp workpiece into the "grabber thingie", lower center onto the bit, run once, remove and blow out chips from the fixed limiter jig, then re-run for smoothest possible cut, remove from grabber thingie.

Thanks again to all for your comments and suggestions. Now I have just 102 more to do to reach my goal of making 200 "Secret Treasure Boxes".


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## moosie (Aug 13, 2020)

I love it when a plan comes together. :smile2:


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

It is obviously time for @TomCT2 or @brucet999 to register the trademark on "grabber thingie."


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