# combination square



## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm currently searching for a really nice combination square. I reached a milestone in my life very recently and wanted to celebrate by purchasing one that could last me a lifetime and one that I get great enjoyment from using.

I currently use Incra tri-squares. I really like them, but haven't had the opportunity to purchase a combination square. I've had my eye on a Bridge City Tools CS-12. A very nice tool that my dad currently owns. Bridge City is not making them right now and doesn't promise they will again. I've seen a couple on ebay that I think are insanely priced. So, I'm on the look out for another brand. 

I see that Starrett is pretty highly recommended. While I'm sure it's nice, I really like the brass and cocobolo of the Bridge City. 

Am I hunting for something that doesn't exist, and/or should I just bite the bullet and pay the high ebay price for a bridge city? I'm hoping to find a smaller company that pays very careful attention to quality.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

I used to like ' Rabone Chesterman '. 20 years I thought they were the best. If you can get one from that era I'll have it. If you can get two you can have the other 

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Starret, really enjoy mine.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

I have two Starretts, a 12" and a 6". Very nice tool.


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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback. I think the Starrett will be the fall back if I can't find something I like better. I have noticed that there are some pretty small time companies that make some very nice chisels sets. I was hoping to find a company like that that produces combination squares. Something with a wood inlay is really what I would like to find. Maybe the Bridge city is my only option there.


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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> I used to like ' Rabone Chesterman '. 20 years I thought they were the best. If you can get one from that era I'll have it. If you can get two you can have the other
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


I'm not familiar with Rabone Chesterman, I'll do some research.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I have very few tools that are of the 'high end' line. I use my tools. They are used on benchwork, on casework, and go with the tools to the jobsite. I use Stanley 12" and 18" primarily and have no complaints about them. If I was into tool and die, or metal working I might consider a different assortment of tools.

If I was into just displaying my tools or name dropping, Starrett would be one I would consider. My thoughts are, I would discard the ones I use if they were inaccurate, or that after adjustment they would vary for 45° or 90°.











 







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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

Let me first start off by saying that I have a Starrett and I absolutely love it. It is my go to square. With that being said, I'm a firm believer that a person should never settle for something less than what they want. If it is a Bridge City that you want, pay the extra and get the Bridge City. If you purchase a Starrett, even if you love it, there will always be something inside that says "I wish I would have gotten the Bridge City".
JMO


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I have very few tools that are of the 'high end' line. I use my tools. They are used on benchwork, on casework, and go with the tools to the jobsite. I use Stanley 12" and 18" primarily and have no complaints about them. If I was into tool and die, or metal working I might consider a different assortment of tools.
> 
> If I was into just displaying my tools or name dropping, Starrett would be one I would consider. My thoughts are, I would discard the ones I use if they were inaccurate, or that after adjustment they would vary for 45° or 90°.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I cannot even tell you the brand of the combination square that I use. I have had it for 30 plus years and it still checks perfectly accurate. 

George


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I have very few tools that are of the 'high end' line. I use my tools. They are used on benchwork, on casework, and go with the tools to the jobsite. I use Stanley 12" and 18" primarily and have no complaints about them. If I was into tool and die, or metal working I might consider a different assortment of tools.
> 
> If I was into just displaying my tools or name dropping, Starrett would be one I would consider. My thoughts are, I would discard the ones I use if they were inaccurate, or that after adjustment they would vary for 45° or 90°.
> 
> ...


When it comes to chisels, carving tools and lathe tools, I'm with you.

When it comes to a combination square though, my first Stanley ended up in the trash, then I bought a second, wasn't happy with it. Bought a Starret and after using it once, my second Stanley ended up in the trash can.

Most squares from the home stores are not really square and depending on the quality and level of the furniture you build, than can really pose a problem.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

WillemJM said:


> Most squares from the home stores are not really square and depending on the quality and level of the furniture you build, than can really pose a problem.


Well, I guess I get lucky with the ones I buy and use. So, my advise to you is the ones you buy there that aren't accurate...don't continue to use them.









 







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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

Accuracy is on the top of my list. Most likely I was making the wrong assumption that spending money on the nicer tools would guarantee their accuracy. If its not square, I'm not interested.

I use my tools in my small cabinet shop, not on the jobsite. I don't see anything wrong with having a tool that displays well as long as it performs it's task the way I need it to. 

Thanks again for the feedback.


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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

Kenbo said:


> Let me first start off by saying that I have a Starrett and I absolutely love it. It is my go to square. With that being said, I'm a firm believer that a person should never settle for something less than what they want. If it is a Bridge City that you want, pay the extra and get the Bridge City. If you purchase a Starrett, even if you love it, there will always be something inside that says "I wish I would have gotten the Bridge City".
> JMO


Lots of truth in that statement I'm afraid.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I have a no name 12", an 18" Starrett and a 6" Mitutoyo. The 12" registers square, the markings are crude, but it works. The Starrett is a bit big to be a go to tool. The 6" is the one I use most. It is as well made as the Starrett, and small enough to adjust one handed. I use it with a well sharpened pencil as a marking guage. I have found that the pencil line is just as accurate as my marking knife, but it is much easier to sand away pencil marks.


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## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

I have a Stanley combination square but I seldom use it. I rely on the Swanson speed square for accuracy and ease of use. I started with the 7" and now have the 12" model. Because of it's one piece, no moving parts to go out of adjustment, and it's triangle shape, it has inherent design advantages over the combination square. It was designed as a carpenter/framer tool but I think it has good application for woodworking.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Wrangler said:


> I have a no name 12", an 18" Starrett and a 6" Mitutoyo. The 12" registers square, the markings are crude, but it works. The Starrett is a bit big to be a go to tool. The 6" is the one I use most. It is as well made as the Starrett, and small enough to adjust one handed. I use it with a well sharpened pencil as a marking guage. I have found that the pencil line is just as accurate as my marking knife, but it is much easier to sand away pencil marks.


I have seen reference to 18" square a few times. Just for the sake of clarity - do they make an 18" combination square in the states. Also can I confirm, when you guys talk about a combination square are you talking about a sliding stock on a steel rule or are you talking fixed stock.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

DaveTTC said:


> I have seen reference to 18" square a few times. Just for the sake of clarity - do they make an 18" combination square in the states. Also can I confirm, when you guys talk about a combination square are you talking about a sliding stock on a steel rule or are you talking fixed stock.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


This thing...

















 







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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> This thing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok that is what I thought. So do you guys have them in 18" do you?

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Well, I guess I get lucky with the ones I buy and use. So, my advise to you is the ones you buy there that aren't accurate...don't continue to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When it comes to combination squares, accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. It's the same thing whether you buy a bicycle from Walmart for $300, or spend $10,000 for professional gear. It depends what you use it for. For the kind of work I do, a box store combination square won't cut it, neither would a pencil.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

WillemJM said:


> When it comes to combination squares, accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. It's the same thing whether you buy a bicycle from Walmart for $300, or spend $10,000 for professional gear. It depends what you use it for. For the kind of work I do, a box store combination square won't cut it, neither would a pencil.


I hear you. I know some try hards who think it is accurate simply if the mark the right side of the timber 

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

WillemJM said:


> When it comes to combination squares, accuracy is in the eye of the beholder.


I don't agree. That philosophy is a way of explaining error. Either it's dead on or it's not. It doesn't matter what kind of work you do. A tool could be accurate, and the user may not be.









 







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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I don't agree. That philosophy is a way of explaining error. Either it's dead on or it's not. It doesn't matter what kind of work you do. A tool could be accurate, and the user may not be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing as crude as a combination square is dead on. The more expensive ones are just more accurate and remain more accurate throughout their entire range of ruler extension as the years go by.

If you had to do tool and die making with a combination square as your means, you would not be in the trade much longer than a few days.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

WillemJM said:


> Nothing as crude as a combination square is dead on. The more expensive ones are just more accurate and remain more accurate throughout their entire range of ruler extension as the years go by.
> 
> If you had to do tool and die making with a combination square as your means, you would not be in the trade much longer than a few days.


There are ways to check the accuracy of your tools. You should familiarize yourself with those methods.









 







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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I have master squares to check combination squares, granit surface plates, with granit blocks to check master squares.
Sine bars set with gage blocks to check angles.

Good combo squares, check just fine most all the time to master squares. If not, probably some crud caked in, or a nick in the blade that is easily fixed.

In the machine shop, combo squares are used in semi precision layout,+ or - around .002"

The better combo squares I found are Starrett, Brown&Sharpe, Mitutoyo, Luftkin and Scherr Tuminco.
There are others, I probably forgotten.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Benny Blanco said:


> I have master squares to check combination squares, granit surface plates, with granit blocks to check master squares.
> Sine bars set with gage blocks to check angles.
> 
> Good combo squares, check just fine most all the time to master squares. If not, probably some crud caked in, or a nick in the blade that is easily fixed.
> ...


Good post, not everyone appreciates the accuracy sometimes needed in woodworking. Most of those who do only cabinet making will not know the difference.

For instance, if the one poster here had to set up his miter accuracy with a combination square and he had to do a 16" dia segmented platter, using hard wood and 10 degree angles:

The result = 36 x 0.003 = 0.108 thousands. Means a few segments will have gaps and come loose.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

WillemJM said:


> Good post, not everyone appreciates the accuracy sometimes needed in woodworking. Most of those who do only cabinet making will not know the difference.


Would you care to explain just what accuracy is necessary and when and where it is needed?

And why would someone who is only involved in cabinet making not know the difference?

George


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

WillemJM said:


> Nothing as crude as a combination square is dead on. The more expensive ones are just more accurate and remain more accurate throughout their entire range of ruler extension as the years go by.
> 
> If you had to do tool and die making with a combination square as your means, you would not be in the trade much longer than a few days.


Tool and dye making is a completely different activity and not comparable to wood working. Certainly the tolerances that are very acceptable in building the finest craft woodworking project would not be tolerable in building an aircraft engine.

Comparing the two has no meaning.

George


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> Tool and dye making is a completely different activity and not comparable to wood working. Certainly the tolerances that are very acceptable in building the finest craft woodworking project would not be tolerable in building an aircraft engine.
> 
> Comparing the two has no meaning.
> 
> George


I thought the topic was "Accuracy".

In some woodworking projects one can approach a need for high accuracy, none the less. A standard Dewalt miter saw, out of the box needs work, to get it good enough for some of my projects. I combination square won't work in these instances.

I did try to describe that above.


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## burkhome (Sep 5, 2010)

I love cool squares...Don't really need them...Can get the work done with geometry and a compass.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

burkhome said:


> I love cool squares...Don't really need them...Can get the work done with geometry and a compass.


I built this in the middle 80's under the strict apprenticeship from my father when he was still alive. It has since moved a few times around the world to where it is in my current residence.

The ground rules were:

1.) Besides the door hinges, no other hardware allowed, means no screws, no nails, no brads, no stapels, only joinery and glue.

2.) No veneer, no ply no engineered woods allowed, only the finest furniture grade hard-wood allowed. (Walnut won't work as the expansion across the grain is not uniform enough)

3.) No sandpaper allowed, power planer, jointer, hand planes and card scrapers were they only finishing allowed.

4.) The door hinges had to be hidden with a bead the same thickness and the doors inset to the frame have tolerances which makes you feel the air displaced when you close them.

5.) The piece had to be constructed so that it withstands the use of many lifetimes.

The kind if combination square sold at Lowes or Home Depot, would never have made it to within a mile of his shop, because of the emphasis he paid to "accuracy"

I think there was an article a few years ago in one of the major wood magazines about the accuracy of squares, it made good reading.










Hiding the hinges and no gaps between door frame and casework.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Woodnthings bill, gave me some advice,
Wood is much more forgiving then metal, it has much more flex, imperfections will tend to fill itself in.

My limted wood adventures, bill is right on that.

In metal machining, its too easy to get carried away on tolerences, and waste time trying for close tolerence where its not needed.

WillemJM brought up stacked errors on 10degree angles forming a circle, that would be a problem in metal or wood, but doable with a consistant set up, and perhaps some hand fitting.

One of the most critical close tolerence situations I run into in the metal machining is, fixtures to hold parts for machining, those have to be more accurate then the part being machined.
I ran into that making a box joint jig for wood, I had to keep working on it until I could get a good box joint. But....I didnt use a master square to do it.
Usually, I use master squares for machine tool alignment, or part inspection on the granit plate.

The combo squares at Home Depot look pretty bad, aluminum sliding piece, if they are square to begin with, they cant hold up over time.

I think a quality combo square would be a good investment for the wood working situation.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

The challenge I always find in accuracy, is to set up towards fitting sets of different sized mitered squares, small ones inside moving to bigger ones outside and getting all the mitered corners to fit and align exactly. To do this without fitting and sizing each individual piece without CNC is not easy.

For example for an upcoming project I'm planning to use 1/8" bandsawn veneer:

First there is a chess board with it's squares on the inside.

Then there is a 1 1/2" wide mitered band that needs to go around the chess board, with figured wood, the mitered corners need to align perfectly.

Then another 1/2" band follows with a different figured wood, all the corners need to again line up to straight aligned mitered lines.

Finally, a 3/4" hardwood band goes around the mitered 1/8" veneer and the edge of the substrate and all this has to be glued on the substrate with aligned miter corners and mitered lines need to align exactly.

It's easy to do one of these and fit each individual piece, but try and set up to do a number of them and do perfect fitment without fiddling. Without CNC, it requires the same accuracy as metal machine work.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> Ok that is what I thought. So do you guys have them in 18" do you?
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


And 12, and 24-inch blades as well. You can put other blades in the head, and you can get centering and protractor heads as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I only use a combination square as a pencil powered marking guage. I don't rely
on them to be square!


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Here is a group of squares and a combination bevel, I migrated from the machine area to the wood area.
I find these useful,

There are 2combo squares 18" and 12", the 12" a Starret that is over 80yrs old, a little battered but checks out fine with the master square at upper. Not bad for $12 at a flea market.

Two sliding T squares 4" and 6". I use these alot, setting depths and more.

A protractor attachment, fits 6", 12" and 18" blades.

A Starret 5"X6" flat square, nice for layout on flat surfaces, those are hard to find.

These are all accurate, no problems.

That Helios master square found its way into the wood area, was helpful when adjusting the vintage Radial Saw.










Problems are cheap squares, just cant count on them.

I found a framing square that is around 100yrs old, accurate and well made, cant be compared to anything I have seen new.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

That is my first 18" I have seen. Thx for the post. Do they do them in metric. Never seen one that size anywhere in Australia.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, the blades can be purchased to 36" inch, metric or a combination of both, the 18" is also a Starret.

They also make a larger sliding piece, abit more practical with blades longer then 24"


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Benny Blanco said:


> Yes, the blades can be purchased to 36" inch, metric or a combination of both, the 18" is also a Starret.
> 
> They also make a larger sliding piece, abit more practical with blades longer then 24"


Might have to look online one of these days and see if I can order one

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

Lots of good input from everyone. I think we can all agree that in general metal working has tighter tolerances than woodworking, but depending on the project or activity, woodworking can demand very tight tolerances. Especially where a repeated pattern is present.

I think it is important to remember that a combination square is good for more than just checking work against a true 90 degrees. In my case, I am looking for a world class combination square that looks great on my wall, and is functional for when I need to use it. I don't need one, I've gotten by fine without one until now. I want one to celebrate passing my professional engineering exam - and for me, it would be a great addition to my growing collection of tools.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I dont think the combo square is considered a metal working tool, more of a universal tool.
There are good ones, and even more bad ones.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Benny Blanco said:


> I dont think the combo square is considered a metal working tool, more of a universal tool.
> There are good ones, and even more bad ones.


Hi Benny. 

You seem to know a bit etc... I tried to start a thread about smithy SuperShop lathes. I think that is what they are called. There have been no hits on it. Any idea where else I might try?

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I looked at the Smithy, perhaps like the Smithy "3 in one" metal lathe, drill, and mill, does everything, but not anything very well.
It just seems, stand alone purpose machines are always better.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Benny Blanco said:


> I looked at the Smithy, perhaps like the Smithy "3 in one" metal lathe, drill, and mill, does everything, but not anything very well.
> It just seems, stand alone purpose machines are always better.


This is the one that's was interested in. 

http://www.smithy.com/supershop

Not sure if it is available anymore.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

The smithy 3-in-1 is a metalworking tool, so you might get more replies trying your questions in a metalworking forum. (I'm not saying you can't ask the question here, I'm just saying there is a better chance that someone on a metalworking forum has one of them.) There are a few out there that don't cater to the pros:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forum.php
http://www.chaski.com/homemachinist/


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

joesbucketorust said:


> The smithy 3-in-1 is a metalworking tool, so you might get more replies trying your questions in a metalworking forum. (I'm not saying you can't ask the question here, I'm just saying there is a better chance that someone on a metalworking forum has one of them.) There are a few out there that don't cater to the pros:
> 
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forum.php
> http://www.chaski.com/homemachinist/


Hi Joe. I was looking at the SuperShop, not the 3-in-1. The advertise the SuperShop as a woodworking multipurpose machine.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

joesbucketorust said:


> The smithy 3-in-1 is a metalworking tool, so you might get more replies trying your questions in a metalworking forum. (I'm not saying you can't ask the question here, I'm just saying there is a better chance that someone on a metalworking forum has one of them.) There are a few out there that don't cater to the pros:
> 
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forum.php
> http://www.chaski.com/homemachinist/


Thx for the other links btw

I will check them out too

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Smithy has a remake of the old Shopsmith MK5, wood working machine, separate from the dreadful Smithy "3 in one" metal working machines.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Benny Blanco said:


> Smithy has a remake of the old Shopsmith MK5, wood working machine, separate from the dreadful Smithy "3 in one" metal working machines.


From their advertising it seemed the smithy remake was far superior to the shop smith. Of course I have never had hands on with either so cannot speak from experience.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

For those interested, I called Bridge City and pulled the trigger on a CS-12v2. Can't wait for it to arrive!!!!


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

s7horton said:


> For those interested, I called Bridge City and pulled the trigger on a CS-12v2. Can't wait for it to arrive!!!!


I looked at their tools, very nice.
I like the longer miter leg on the combo square.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

s7horton said:


> For those interested, I called Bridge City and pulled the trigger on a CS-12v2. Can't wait for it to arrive!!!!


It says something here about it being discontinued.









 







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## s7horton (Jun 9, 2012)

Yep, but I called them and they had one left and sold it to me.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

s7horton said:


> Yep, but I called them and they had one left and sold it to me.


Mate I ain't never seen a square like that in 'the-land-down-under'

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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