# Countertop conundrum



## MsFixIt (Dec 15, 2021)

I've never done cabinets or countertops before, so I know I took on a huge task remodeling my entire kitchen by myself. I've gotten to the part of the job where I'm ready for countertops. I bought the pre-made laminate from Menards, and have discovered one of the room's corners is more than 90 degrees, it's more like 95. So, the pre-cut 45 degree miters aren't meeting up if each section of counter is flush against the wall. How do I fix that? If I can cut the joint on the left side piece to match the angle of the right side without changing how the biscuits and bolts line up at the joint, that seems to make the most sense, but won't the biscuits and bolts that join the pieces no longer line up squarely? That left side section is also too long at the longest measurement by almost an inch, so I have enough extra material to cut that angle to match. I appreciate any help! Thanks.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I imagine that was quite a shock when you laid the two pieces on top of the cabinets. You say one piece is long enough to modify the angle. What about the other piece? Personally I would prefer to cut both pieces so that the joint comes out exactly at the corner.

However, I would not purchase another whole piece to just do that. 

Should be no problem with biscuits. However, since I know nothing about about your bolts cannot comment on that.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

If you don't make the cuts on both pieces, the lengths won't be equal, one will be longer than the other creating an offset at the front edge.

I have only cut a post formed countertop once in my life.
I turned it up side down and used a circular saw with a fine tooth 60 tooth blade.
I used the most accurate 45 degree angle I had, a large draftsman's triangle.
If your corner is NOT 90 degrees, then 45 degrees won't work., more like 47.5 degrees.
You can use a protractor online and print it out spray glue it to you counter top on the back.
I knew the saw's base would "bump/stop" into the post from before it would cut all the way, if the counter top was "right side up".
I have a lot of experience using a circ saw, even so it was scary for me!
If you don't feel comfortable doing this, take it to a cabinet shop where they may have a large enough saw to make the cut accurately.
The post formed counters require a special saw and there's a built in router under it to make the 3 slots for the clamping rods and nuts.
Look under a finished counter to see what those look like.






Postforming Miter Saws – Evans Midwest







evansmachinerycompany.com


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Sometimes you can put the joint together, notch the wall and caulk a bit.

It's a little this and that. But you screw up the angles trying to cut them without knowledge of how, its over.

We cut those tops upside down in the field.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am assuming the left side is the long side and the right is the short side. Question, does the top over hang the cabinets on both ends or does one side have a wall the top bumps into. If both ends hang over the cabinet ends, you can remove the same from both to make the angle fit the best. You need to see how much over hang you have at each end, over the cabinets if there is over hang. Because when you remove that much from each top, the top will slide toward that cornet thus shortening the ends of the top.

That is a difficult fix even for an experienced cabinet man. I have done it in the past but it is touchy and you have to have everything dead on. The way I did it, I cut from the backside using a straight edged guide for the circular saw, use a fine tooth blade. Leave the cut a good 1/16 - 1/8th inch longer or wider than it needs to be. Draw the pencil lines on top of the top where the final cut needs to be. Use a belt sander to sand off, up to those marks.

Now here is another deal. Using a belt sander when you don't have experience, you can mess up more than you can fix. You also want to sand under slightly so the top edge touches. Be careful because the back splash will have to bevel back, not down, same with the front rolled edge.

I highly suggest you call and experienced top installer and let him/her fix that for you. I am not saying you can't do it, but not having experience you can really mess up fast.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

BigJim said:


> I am assuming the left side is the long side and the right is the short side. Question, does the top over hang the cabinets on both ends or does one side have a wall the top bumps into. If both ends hang over the cabinet ends, *you can remove the same from both to make the angle fit the best. *You need to see how much over hang you have at each end, over the cabinets if there is over hang. Because when you remove that much from each top, the top will slide toward that cornet thus shortening the ends of the top.
> 
> That is a difficult fix even for an experienced cabinet man. I have done it in the past but it is touchy and you have to have everything dead on. The way I did it, I cut from the backside using a straight edged guide for the circular saw, use a fine tooth blade. Leave the cut a good 1/16 - 1/8th inch longer or wider than it needs to be. Draw the pencil lines on top of the top where the final cut needs to be. Use a belt sander to sand off, up to those marks.
> 
> ...


Jim you are spot on! This is not for the inexperienced or timid, JMO.
The belt sander can be "disastrous" in the wrong hands, even in experienced hands.
If she takes it to a cabinet shop, she should bring a wide cardboard template of the corner made by taping two large pieces together at the angle of the walls. The shop can then cut the correct angles to match the template. Pros make templates all the time when making solid surface countertops.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

I would not modify the joint, put the top together, scribe the tops to the wall, or add molding on top of the back splash to cover the gap.

I've installed a lot of preformed top, I would never mess with the joint.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I doubt it you can make up that amount of "wrong angle" by scribing the top edge parallel to the wall. And if so, it would have a heck of a taper.
The pieces are now flush to the walls:









I don't know if a router and straight edge guide would be a better choice than a circ saw and I wonder if anyone has done it?
It would be my choice, I think if this were my "conundrum" .Less likely to result in tear out and much lighter in weight than a circ saw. The issue will still be the vertical on the back splash. Leave the tops in place flush to the walls, Then the router could be used on the top rather than on the bottom and 1/4" pass made at first. the the rest could be removed with other passes.
One way to "bisect the angle" as shown is to lay a 3/4" strip down and split the difference using marks on either side to get it equal. Then use tape or a fine Sharpie to get a line. If the router leaves 1/4" to 1/2" to ride a bearing on, the tops could be turn over to finish the edge and maybe trim more of the blacksplash? Just trying to "think outside the box" here.


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## kiwi_outdoors (Jan 15, 2020)

First confirm that your precuts are a true 45 degrees.


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## rogerh (Sep 13, 2020)

This video shows how you can trim the backsplash to conform with unsquare walls


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

If I had more visual of the kitchen layout it would help...


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## Roybrew (Nov 2, 2016)

kiwi_outdoors said:


> First confirm that your precuts are a true 45 degrees.


Exactly. It wouldn't be the first time a supplier messed up, it happens.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## johnedp34 (Jun 30, 2016)

My tops were supplied with T section tinted alloy strips to cover joints.
johnep


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I would make a template.

Using 1/2” MDF to the exact width of the top, then cut the rough angle & dial them in using a router and straight edge. Once you’ve got that, flip the top over (don’t forget flip patterns, too DAMHIKT) rough cut and then use router and pattern bit. 

You really don’t want to touch that with a saw no matter how good the blade.

The back splash would be the trickiest part I would probably do a rough bevel cut with a circular saw and dial it in with a sander.

You also need to check the walls for bowing. That can also throw a monkey wrench in the process.

Caulk can cover a multitude of sins, but not in this case you have to get it pretty close.

If it we me, I would return them and make my own. It’s really not that hard.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

This will have to be done by a professional...


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

you don't say how long the pieces are. But, most ctops have a 1/4" lip on the back (you want to measure yours) intended for this need, that you scribe and belt sand off to meet the wall. IF one of the ctop legs is not too long, you may be able to get'er done that way. but, point is here to belt sand the backsplash, "not the joint". you can pull the joint together and measure the gap to see if the backsplash will allow you enough 

if you cannot get acceptable results that way, then you will have to recut the joint. as mentioned you need to cut upside down with fine tooth blade. to accomplish this, measure the gap (as you show in your pic) as accurately as you can. flip the ctop ovr and measure 1/2 of that amount from the back corner. then connect that mark with the existing front corner. do this on both pieces. when cut, your gap should bow be closed. 
ps i would cut just short of the line, then sand to the line. TIP, back bevel as you sand a degree or two, so that the laminated top will touch before the mdf does. if the mdf touches first, you will have a gap.

you may have to recut for the biscuits and the bolts (you definitely need to use these to close up the joint.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

“I’ve never done cabinets or countertops before”…


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

shoot summ said:


> I would not modify the joint, put the top together, scribe the tops to the wall, or add molding on top of the back splash to cover the gap.
> 
> I've installed a lot of preformed top, I would never mess with the joint.


Let's not scribe the backsplash ...yet!
Just glue on a 3/4" wide piece of the same laminate to make the edge a bit wider, so when you do scribe the wall lines on there will be a more substantial lip remaining.

Also before doing any scribing or cutting, place a straight edge against the wall to see if there is a bump or swell causing the angle to increase. If that's the case it may be easier? to sand down that portion of the wall, and repaint than it would be to cut different angles on the post form!
Fix the wall issue first, rather than cut the counter top!


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

WNT I think those have small scribing strip at the top incorporated into the backsplash.

I've had a few ct's installed by pros and they all check the walls and make a template if needed. You have to with granite, etc but with laminate not needed unless its really way off b/c the back splash is separate and glued to the contour of the wall.

I hate those premade ct's.

Maybe the OP will come back......................


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

TimPa said:


> you don't say how long the pieces are. But, most ctops have a 1/4" lip on the back (you want to measure yours) intended for this need, that you scribe and belt sand off to meet the wall. IF one of the ctop legs is not too long, you may be able to get'er done that way. but, point is here to belt sand the backsplash, "not the joint". you can pull the joint together and measure the gap to see if the backsplash will allow you enough
> 
> if you cannot get acceptable results that way, then you will have to recut the joint. as mentioned you need to cut upside down with fine tooth blade. to accomplish this, measure the gap (as you show in your pic) as accurately as you can. flip the ctop ovr and measure 1/2 of that amount from the back corner. then connect that mark with the existing front corner. do this on both pieces. when cut, your gap should bow be closed.
> ps i would cut just short of the line, then sand to the line. TIP, back bevel as you sand a degree or two, so that the laminated top will touch before the mdf does. if the mdf touches first, you will have a gap.
> ...


additionally, if you are installing a tile backsplsh (if not you may want to consider it now), it will/can cover a 3/8" gap between the wall and the ctop.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

TimPa said:


> additionally, if you are installing a tile backsplsh (if not you may want to consider it now), it will/can cover a 3/8" gap between the wall and the ctop.


There needs to be more additional information…

That top could be 12’ long and even tile track wouldn’t cover that gap


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've had to re-cut formica countertops before. Usually all it affects is the length of the pull up bolts. Sometime you have to cut the bolts off to make it fit. Worst case scenario is you would have to glue and screw a piece of plywood to the underside instead of using the pull up bolts. Just turn the countertop face down and saw it from the back side. If you could make a cheater board for the saw it could cut cleaner.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I would be on the phone to see if I could get the tops cut by a professional before doing anything else, it is critical to have a perfect seam when finished. Any gap may allow moisture to swell the base material and you would have to live with that for the life of the cabinets.
You are the only one with anything invested in this project, an experienced professional has spoken up several times, take his advise.


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## MsFixIt (Dec 15, 2021)

Menards will not cut any other miters than 22.5 and 45. So they wouldn't have been able to help me even if I'd known the corner was wider than 90 when I ordered them. Pic attached of the whole layout. The corner in question is to the right side of the range. I'm not a complete newbie, I did rough carpentry for 4 years. I know it's nowhere near that of the pros, but I'm not a secretary with an inflated ego either. I tried just about every counter installer and cabinet maker in my area and no one can or will help me with tops I already own. And for budgetary reasons, I really couldn't swing a professional for the whole job. So either I do it myself, or I just have loose tops forever. The back of the ctop backsplash has a half inch of material that I could scribe to the wall and make up the rest with a tile backsplash. I'd intended to do a tile backsplash anyway since the previous owner glued fake plastic tin ceiling pieces up and taking that out left some damage to the drywall. The left section is 51" at the longest, with 3/4" overhang into the range space. The right side is 66" at the longest and also has 3/4" overhang. I do have a bit of material to make up for cutting the miter. I didn't really want to do that but at the outset, it seemed like the most feasible option. The wall is wavy on both sides, the house was built in 1936, so I'm sure it's moved around some. Also, the wall behind the right section is lathe and plaster, so I'm sure there's some plaster sag involved too.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Would you feel comfortable placing the counters upside down on a pair of saw horses under each counter at the proper angle 45+- degrees? using a template made from the walls?
We would want the same angle as the walls showing the same tapered gap as when they are flush right side up.
Carpet on the horses would allow them to slide without scratching, but they would need to be clamped securely in place.
There's a router jig called "exact width router jig", You Tuber, Stumpy Nubs and the wood whisperer has them. What this does is allow a smaller size router bit to ride the of of the parallel edges of the jig at the width you preset it. Now that allows you to make both edges parallel with one jig, and one setting, far easier than a circular saw and separate guide rails.

Is there anyone who you could ask for help who has any experience with a router? Those of us with many years of experience would have more confidence in a method like this than someone such as yourself, but unfortunately we are not there to help!

The router has an advantage over the circular saw which is it's cutter is symmetrical to it's base plate. The circular saw has the blade on the inside of the shoe, offset either on the right or offset on the left. The router can remove the same amount off each edge without turning it around, unlike the circ saw and that's why I am suggesting it for this issue. An up-spiral bit would give less tear out that a straight bit, BUT you could test it out first.

If there is a better solution maybe someone will post it OR critique this idea. Suggestions Welcome.

On your layout, where near the stove will you have a seam? When faced with that situation and an electric range top, I had my solid surface installer make a short seam on either side of the cook top, and it's barely noticeable. That makes a short length of post form to the right possibly more manage able not only for correcting the seam, but possibly for eliminating some of the angle by adjusting that section against the wall?


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

It is a tough job but doable. IMO the key is making a template. BTDT trust me, you do NOT want to be figuring the angle and making cuts directly to the countertop.

For template, 1/4” MDF, cut down to 24” (or CT width) long enough to register parallel off front of cabs.

Dial in the angle on template by making incremental trims with router, straight edge and pattern bit. Do a rough cut on CT with a circ saw and flush trim to template with a router, again register off front edge of counter. You’ll have to pad out the bottom flush with the edge overhang for router to ride on. A spiral flush trim but is best.

The bevel on the backsplash will be the hardest part, fortunately not that noticeable. You’re going to have to caulk the seams anyway.

You can do it!


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

MsFixIt said:


> Menards will not cut any other miters than 22.5 and 45. So they wouldn't have been able to help me even if I'd known the corner was wider than 90 when I ordered them. Pic attached of the whole layout. The corner in question is to the right side of the range. I'm not a complete newbie, I did rough carpentry for 4 years. I know it's nowhere near that of the pros, but I'm not a secretary with an inflated ego either. I tried just about every counter installer and cabinet maker in my area and no one can or will help me with tops I already own. And for budgetary reasons, I really couldn't swing a professional for the whole job. So either I do it myself, or I just have loose tops forever. The back of the ctop backsplash has a half inch of material that I could scribe to the wall and make up the rest with a tile backsplash. I'd intended to do a tile backsplash anyway since the previous owner glued fake plastic tin ceiling pieces up and taking that out left some damage to the drywall. The left section is 51" at the longest, with 3/4" overhang into the range space. The right side is 66" at the longest and also has 3/4" overhang. I do have a bit of material to make up for cutting the miter. I didn't really want to do that but at the outset, it seemed like the most feasible option. The wall is wavy on both sides, the house was built in 1936, so I'm sure it's moved around some. Also, the wall behind the right section is lathe and plaster, so I'm sure there's some plaster sag involved too.


This is your best approach IMO. 

Cutting the flat part of the miter in the top is doable, the challenge is duplicating the angle on the backsplash portions. Even with some skill there is too much opportunity to ruin the laminate, it does tend to chip easily.

I would set the tops in there with the corner angle pulled together and see what the gaps look like along the backsplash, that will help you decide which is the best route.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Are these tops cut to finished length?

when somewhat assembled, how far is it off the wall?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

What ever you do is going to involve cutting the countertop, so practice with a belt sander unless you are familiar with using one, I would prefer to avoid trimming the miter and try to fit it scribing the backsplash. What happens in the corner will not be that noticeable when there are items on the counter top so if it is a bit thinner you can probably live with it.

For anyone else starting out with an empty kitchen or bathroom it is always a good idea to check all walls and corners and make any corrections, a few sheets of drywall can often make life much easier, both when installing tops and the tile backsplash.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

I hate messing with post form tops. Probably the same reason she's having trouble finding someone to cut it for her. . Cutting the angle is the easy part. it's the 4" back splash and the 1-1/2" face/nose where things start looking like crap. After cutting the flat with a circular saw, you will need to carefully adjust the back splash and nose cuts with a belt sander. The chance for "perfect" is about 40/60. 60% chance it's not going to be perfect.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I just installed a countertop for a customer this week. The countertop was from Hampton Bay and it turned out terrible. It made a 90 degree corner and I had to miter the top to fit and the problem came from one top was 25 5/8" wide and the other was 25 3/8" wide. Of course it didn't line up so I had to fill the back corner where it didn't match with caulk. The only thing that helped is the corner was under a bar top which made it somewhat out of sight. If the tops weren't supplied to me to use I think I would have returned at least the small one but my customer had to go 50 miles to another town to get the tops. It was a rent house so I knew he would want me to patch it and he did see it before the top was installed.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

MsFixIt said:


> I've never done cabinets or countertops before, so I know I took on a huge task remodeling my entire kitchen by myself. I've gotten to the part of the job where I'm ready for countertops. I bought the pre-made laminate from Menards, and have discovered one of the room's corners is more than 90 degrees, it's more like 95. So, the pre-cut 45 degree miters aren't meeting up if each section of counter is flush against the wall. How do I fix that? If I can cut the joint on the left side piece to match the angle of the right side without changing how the biscuits and bolts line up at the joint, that seems to make the most sense, but won't the biscuits and bolts that join the pieces no longer line up squarely? That left side section is also too long at the longest measurement by almost an inch, so I have enough extra material to cut that angle to match. I appreciate any help! Thanks.
> View attachment 433791


This is no as bad as it looks to fix as long as you have about a 3/8-1/2" extra on the ends. Here is how I approach these situations;
1. Keeping the top oriented as it is in the above picture, cover the entire seam and at least 1/2" more with blue masking tape. 
2. Get a thin piece of wood exactly the size of the opening in the front.
3. On one end of the stick mark the center point.
4. Lay the stick over the seam carefully lining up the edges of the stick with the opening in the front, and aligning the center mark on the stick with the center of the rear of the seam.
5. Trace the edge line of the stick onto the tape with a thin point pencil. That will be your cut line.
6. Carefully measure the line at a given point. You now need to turn the counter top over and transfer the line onto the back of the counter.
7. Using a straight edge or saw sled and a circular saw, cut along the line. A regular fine tooth blade will do as the teeth will be cutting the laminate from underneath so tearout will not be an issue.

The bolt holes will line up when done this way and the top should be able to be brought together just fine. Do not be afraid to do this, it may seem overwhelming, but it is not.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It can be overwhelming for someone who hasn't done this. 

I knew a guy at Jakobe who was going to play golf for the first time. He said it doesn't look that hard, I'll have it figured out by the end of the day...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

We are just chattin' amongst ourselves at this point. MsFixit hasn't been around for around for a month: Discussion Starter · #24 · 1 mo ago 
She probably got scared of this doing this project on her own?
😕


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Why they should hires pro's..


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