# Was this work done correctly?



## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

I recently paid approx. $10kish to complete reface every cabinet in my house along with solid maple doors. The work was done recently and I'm not 100% satisfied with the results. I wanted to get some expert opinions on if the work was done correctly. The maple doors are great, they seem to be constructed/finished relaly well and I have no problems with them. The problem i have is the face veneers that are on the face and sides of the cabinets are the problems. The refinishers used a really thick maple veneer, I believe thin pieces of hardwood sandwiching an MDF core. Here are some pictures of the work.












































As you can see the strips don't really line up with the sides of the cabinets. Also on the edges, they weren't cut to join to a point they were just put on and painted to match, although the paint isn't a perfect match. When you open the cabinets, you can see the what he veneer is made of which looks odd. Some of the joints filled with putty are already cracking. 

Was this work done correctly, and if not, what should I say to the company?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I would not be happy with the work, did they give you a written explanation of the work prior to starting?


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> I would not be happy with the work, did they give you a written explanation of the work prior to starting?


I had a salesperson come out and show me the samples etc. and write the contract. The actual construction methods weren't really discussed. Previously they were finished in paper-thin maple veneers with glue backing, which had begun to peel off, which is why I did the work. The new veneers are about .25 inches thick and I thought would be better then the paper-thin ones. 

Isn't the goal of veneering to give the cabinets the appearance the appearance they are made of solid wood? That's what I was assuming would happen but they way they cut and joined the pieces break that illusion.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

That is some of the worst work I've ever seen. I realize prices vary around the country but I probably could have done that job for half of that. I would have also refaced the cabinets with veneer instead of plywood and not the peal and press stuff either.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I wouldn't have paid anyone to do that work, I agree it's terrible. No chance they left you a sample or that you took pictures of the sample they presented??


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

The crack in the 4th picture would be enough to tick me off. Figure if cracks are already showing, you're boned further down the line


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Im gonna say that looks like 1/4" plywood rather than an MDF core... More than 1 way to skin a cat, this is 1 of them I suppose. with the exception of the 1 broken gap, the rest of the work actually looks very clean to me and you say the doors are done well.

But it doesnt meet your expectations, still not sure what you can really do... ask for your money back? Ideally you would have stopped the work early in the job, or seen some detailed photos of other jobs so you knew this would be the result. Could be in for a fight, especially if youve already paid.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> The crack in the 4th picture would be enough to tick me off. Figure if cracks are already showing, you're boned further down the line


You would think for that price they could have left eightythree a jar of soft putty. :laughing:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

For that price they could have left some new cabinets.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

eightythree said:


> I recently paid approx. $10kish to complete *reface every cabinet in my house* *along with solid maple doors.* The work was done recently and I'm not 100% satisfied with the results. I wanted to get some expert opinions on if the work was done correctly. The maple doors are great, they seem to be constructed/finished relaly well and I have no problems with them. ?


Hard to tell how much work they did for the money with that description. Could be a 'few' cabinets and doors or could be a LOT of them...

Have you even talked to them yet about your concerns?


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

bauerbach said:


> Im gonna say that looks like 1/4" plywood rather than an MDF core... More than 1 way to skin a cat, this is 1 of them I suppose. with the exception of the 1 broken gap, the rest of the work actually looks very clean to me and you say the doors are done well.
> 
> But it doesnt meet your expectations, still not sure what you can really do... ask for your money back? Ideally you would have stopped the work early in the job, or seen some detailed photos of other jobs so you knew this would be the result. Could be in for a fight, especially if youve already paid.


Well the cabinet sides look good as well as the doors, I don't know why they cut the joints where they did. They basically seemed to take widths of the plywood at random and glued them on and routed out the excess. If they went that route, why not just put a huge piece up and route it out so it's seamless? Or at least cut the wides so they match the side widths.

I don't know anything about cabinetry so I'm making guesses.



Steve Neul said:


> You would think for that price they could have left eightythree a jar of soft putty. :laughing:


They actually left me a small ball of the stuff. :laughing:



OnealWoodworking said:


> Hard to tell how much work they did for the money with that description. Could be a 'few' cabinets and doors or could be a LOT of them...
> 
> Have you even talked to them yet about your concerns?


I'm having the owner come out next week to look at the work and address my concerns, I came here first to find out what quality of work I received and to know what questions to ask.


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

2 questions, can you join 1/4 inch plywood at a 45 degree angle (think miter joint it's called)? Also could they have just used the thin veneers on the front faces to or is that not a common practice.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

eightythree said:


> 2 questions, can you join 1/4 inch plywood at a 45 degree angle (think miter joint it's called)? Also could they have just used the thin veneers on the front faces to or is that not a common practice.


Yes you can miter 1/4" plywood to where the face is seamless to the sides. Had they used veneer it wouldn't have been necessary. It can still be done. The strip of plywood making the outer stile and the side can be removed and done in this manor. 

The majority of what I see in the pictures could be touched up by a qualified finisher. There is some veneers that need a toner and I saw at least one nail hole that needs some color. 

They probably didn't accumulate the plywood to the environment in the house before using it to cover the faceframes. Then after they got done the wood shrank and caused much of the gaps in the joints. If I was touching it up I would put tape on each side of the joint and fill it with wood putty. Then sand it off and finish it.


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## Al_Amantea (Dec 30, 2014)

The work looks fairly average. I personally would not have the 1/4" plywood on the cabinet faces due to thickness issues and hiding the edge seams that you have now. I would have used a solid glue on veneer, then used a veneer trim saw or laminate router to trim the edges. The first reason for their choice may simply be that the job was spec'd that way due to the salesman's job write up. This may have been a result of your request for the thicker material and your thoughts that this was better than veneer. In most cases, your assumption would be correct, but here is why it was not:
While 1/4" plywood does have more structural strength than veneer, when refacing cabinets, it simply is not needed if the cabinet is already structurally sound and stable. It causes more problems than it has potential to solve, first and foremost is hiding the plywood edges. Most plywood, when cut, will chip out on the edge if a dull blade is used, or if the cut is forced, or if the blade is skewed while cutting. This is almost impossible to hide after it occurs without recutting. The face of the plywood is actually just a veneer anyway, and can be extremely thin. This can cause issues with sanding after a cut, or before finishing, as the veneer is very easy to sand through, exposing the core of the plywood.
There are many ways to hide the plywood edge, ranging from adding a solid wood edge banding, to reverse cutting the edge and glueing it back on, to using a veneer tape to hide the edge. 
The cracking you are seeing in the joint is most probably due to the installers being rushed to finish and not allowing the putty to dry completely, then refiling the joint a second time prior to sanding. All putty will shrink as it dries, and this should be accounted for during installation.
The doors were probably ordered for the size openings, and simply installed on site, hence the quality of their build and the difference between the refaced bodies and the doors/drawer fronts. They may have been custom made by the company, but most likely in a shop environment and not done on site. Also, they are likely solid maple on the stiles and rails, with a maple veneered panel made of particle board if they were ordered. Not an issue, and can actually be extremely stable with humidity swings and temp changes due to the particle board.
I do agree with Mr. Neul about them not allowing the panels to acclimate to the environment, but this normally isn't an issue with plywood. This only occurs with solid wood veneers, especially if the plywood was stored indoors or stocked in a climate controlled environment.
You asked about using a miter joint, and yes, this can be done, but is not a normal practice due to the fragility of a miter joint and its difficulty of cutting properly on site. In a shop environment, this can be controlled easier, but is still a pain. In addition, it can and does change the look of the cabinet face, and will expose the grain differently at each joint and make them more noticeable. 
I would have a discussion with the owner, and let him know about your issues. I personally wouldn't be happy with the quality of the installation. If you feel that you can live with it, ask for a monetary compensation and leave it at that. 
If not, ask that the installers return and make it right. While you may not be able to see it when the doors are closed, remind the owner than every time you open a door or a drawer, you will be reminded of the poor quality of their installation for many years to come, and will forever be unhappy with your home because of their work. 

As far as their proceedure to repair it, if it were me, i would pull the doors and drawers, leave the cabinet ends, but pull the plywood off the face. I would then come in with a solid maple veneer at least 1/16th thick (preferably 3/32), paper backed, and glue that to the face frames using a contact adhesive. Following that, using a laminate trimmer, i would trim the veneer to the face frames with a flush trim bit, using a veneer saw where the router won't fit. Finish sand, tone and finish to match.

But your mileage may vary...
Al Amantea 
Amantea Fine Woodworks


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## fareastern (Sep 19, 2014)

Looks like the aftermath of a communication problem;the customer got what they thought he wanted and not what he expected.The face "veneer" is a lot thicker and more costly than normal decorative veneer and has moved because of its thickness.

Good luck with negotiating a solution.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

fareastern said:


> Looks like the aftermath of a communication problem;the customer got what they thought he wanted and not what he expected.The face "veneer" is a lot thicker and more costly than normal decorative veneer and has moved because of its thickness.
> 
> Good luck with negotiating a solution.


It's more than that. The contractor just didn't know how to reface cabinets. There is no reputable contractor that is going to reface cabinets with 1/4" plywood just because you can see the core veneers on the edges around the door openings and the exposed ends. They could have done it better by mitering the corners at the exposed ends but that still leaves the door openings. Covering the existing cabinets with veneer is the only way to do the job correctly. What is going to be hard at this point is getting them to fix the cabinets right which would be pretty much to start over. I think at best they might get them out there to touch up what they did. These kind of contractors are what makes life hard for reputable contractors. You can't really advertise your work, you have to get work from word of mouth from other customers you have done work for.


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

Wow @ Al Amantea - Amazingly educating reply if you were in California you would have my business immediately. Thank you.

Now gentleman there is a silver lining to this. I have not paid the remaining $2.5kish that remains on the contract due to them still manufacturing 2 doors that were mis-measured. So I have a bit of leverage.

If I understand all the great info you guys are giving I should ask for them to pull the faces off and redo them with paper backed veneer. Am I correct or do I need to ask for more?

This material :










Was what was on the cabinets prior and as you can see was coming off in giant sheets, which is why I did the refacing. Is this paper backed veneer. If so, how do you prevent it from peeling again?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The veneer you had on your cabinets is not the paper back veneer however not having a paper back wasn't the reason it is coming off. The edging on that shelf was applied with hot melt glue. Some shelf edging comes with the hot melt glue already on it and you heat it on with a hot iron. If someone doesn't heat it enough or heats it too much and doesn't put pressure on the veneer tape it doesn't make a good bond and will peal off. A factory making these type cabinets will have a machine that dispenses hot melt glue on the edge of the wood just prior to applying the veneer tape. These machines normally use a better glue and it does a better job. Still they may have had something wrong with the glue spreader and it didn't make a good bond. 

If the cabinets are smooth and it good condition a paper back veneer would cover it fine. Normally when I reface cabinets the cabinets have a lot of damage on them and is in terrible condition. For that reason I usually use a phenolic veneer. It basically is formica with real wood veneer on it. The benefit is if there is a dent or some defect in the cabinet you don't see, it won't show through the veneer. A paper back veneer will follow any dip in the wood.


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## Al_Amantea (Dec 30, 2014)

eightythree said:


> Wow @ Al Amantea - Amazingly educating reply if you were in California you would have my business immediately. Thank you.
> 
> Now gentleman there is a silver lining to this. I have not paid the remaining $2.5kish that remains on the contract due to them still manufacturing 2 doors that were mis-measured. So I have a bit of leverage.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. I am in Baton Rouge, LA. Sorry.

The veneer that you peeling off on the shelf is an edge banding just like Steve said. He is also correct in that if it was applied in a shop, it most likely was done with an edge banding machine. Sometimes you can use a household iron on a cotton or linen setting to reactivate the adhesive and reattach the edging.
There is nothing wrong with using an edge banding, and the hot melt glue used on the banding is not the same as you would use in a household hot melt glue gun but is very similar.

Since you have not paid the final installment, you have quite a bit of leverage. Most times, that final payment is where the company has its profits, as well as job incidentals. Dont underestimate the power of that. 
As an owner, I would want to know how and why the problems occured. I am sure he probably has no idea what happened, and would want to know who made the mistake of spec'ing out 1/4" plywood for a facing. Even if this was a request by the client, a proper and conscientious salesman would have guided the client to the proper end result. After all, they are supposed to be the expert.
If one of my salesmen was responsible for this, i would want to know. Sometimes an over eagerness to sell the job can lead to irresponsible actions, or it could just be inexperience on his part. Either way, this issue needs to be addressed with the salesman.
On the other side of the coin, unlikely due to your apparent inexperience in this matter, if you were absolutely insistant on using plywood for the facing, and not searching for guidance from the salesman, it should have been listed as a client request in the job quote. 
If this was the case, you may not have a possible resolution except to graciously accept a serving of humble pie, and try to work an acceptable price to redo the facing properly. I dont believe this was the case, but it is a possibility. 
Any owner who cares about his reputation will try to resolve the issue to the satisfaction of both parties, but it may require a little give and take on both sides.

Respectfully,
Al


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

Al_Amantea said:


> Thank you for the kind words. I am in Baton Rouge, LA. Sorry.
> 
> The veneer that you peeling off on the shelf is an edge banding just like Steve said. He is also correct in that if it was applied in a shop, it most likely was done with an edge banding machine. Sometimes you can use a household iron on a cotton or linen setting to reactivate the adhesive and reattach the edging.
> There is nothing wrong with using an edge banding, and the hot melt glue used on the banding is not the same as you would use in a household hot melt glue gun but is very similar.
> ...


As a matter of fact Al, the ONLY option that was show to me was the 1/4 plywood : 










They specifically said they dont like to use other veneers as they didn't hold up as well as the ply.


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## 123pugsy (Dec 6, 2014)

That really looks bad.
They _only_ offer this 1/4' veneer?
Yours must be the first job they did as they would have already received a bunch of complaints otherwise and would have stopped doing something so [email protected]##@#$.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

When I refaced cabinets I charged $100 an opening. Now probably more like $125-$150 an opening. Every drawer and door is an opening. This includes exterior,new drawer box, hardware and handles. All doors,drawers and faces prefinished. Countertops are extra. Use this as a sort of bases on pricing

You will find a lot of shops moving into different areas of work they never performed before. Yesterday new work, tomorrow remodeling and refacing.

And no it doesn't look correct....


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

eightythree said:


> As a matter of fact Al, the ONLY option that was show to me was the 1/4 plywood :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


83....from what I've read on contract and your statement, they didn't hide or switch anything....and you didn't say they did either.... There was a lack of knowledge on your part as to how it was going to look UNLESS they showed you a sample of something different. YES the most replies above are correct in there is some workmanship issues AND a much better way to do them. 

SADLY THIS brings down to you and the owner negotiating over the bad workmanship BUT not the plywood facing stiles due to they were done according to contract AND they also by your statement told you that would be used. I agree the price sounds high BUT we can't see all the facets the contract specifies BUT I"VE always said an item or project is only worth what 2 people agree on...good or bad...and this was the agreement/contract...

You have grounds to hold the final until the workmanship is corrected but NOT to change the plywood face stiles.

This is sad BUT a common happening in many contracts or deals....LACK of knowledge and a trust that's the way it's all done.

83 I wish you the best and pray everything works out for you. Count this as a learning curve and that many will read to have better knowledge on the different grades of face trims that can be applied and it DOES affect the cost though. IF he's a worthy owner he'll give you the option to upgrade to the solid veneer but PLEASE don't expect him to do it for the original price agreed due to it would've been an upcharge to begin with and considered a change order. (REMINDING everyone we didn't see a complete quote on things to be done and it is also area price stuctured, so in Cal. that may have been CHEAP according to some of the house prices there).

Al and Steve, THANKS for bringing out some good points that will help others (if they read) in their next project and contracts. From the little I could see the business had a pretty thorough itemized/spec'd checklist that covered a LOT of things in that small view and I have to applaud them for that....most are so vague (and I've been guilty of not enough description BUT I did produce the quality and workmanship) and leaves too much unknown and can be dangerous if their not worthy of their word.

Again 83 my best to you in negotiating.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't know, even if he agreed to plywood refacing, leaving exposed edges everywhere isn't the proper method of finishing. I think he still has recourse on poor workmanship.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

By any standards that was a poor job. The hard question is where to go from there. It wouldn't surprise me if that contractor wouldn't abandon that job if pressed to reface the cabinets again with veneer. It's also possible the contractor might file a mechanic's lean on the house since it was specified in the contract the cabinets would be covered with plywood. I think the best that can be hoped for is to get them to touch up what was done.


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

I can't thank everyone enough for helping me out and getting me on the right track. I have an appointment tomorrow (Tuesday) with the owner coming over. I'm going to go over the work with him and request he go over the fronts with veneers and do them correctly. I couldn't imagine trying to selling this house and having a potential homeowner not notice what I noticed. I've heard time and again kitchens are a big deal when it comes to selling your home so it's important that I do something about this. 

To me, if I was the owner, I wouldn't want pictures of this work in a review like Angie's List/Yelp. I don't think a single person on here has said that this looks like good work. The best comment someone made was that it was average. The images I have shown are just a few of the things were wrong. 

I'll update this thread after I've discussed the issues with the owner.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I didn't say it's the proper method of finishing , I agree it's not what I would've wanted OR done, BUT it was noted on the contract that's the way it would be done and he agreed AND acknowledged he was told it was what was to be used so that makes that part binding/an agreement in the contract.

I'm only bringing out the point that IF we sign a contract, we can't wait wait until AFTER it's done to ask others IF it was the best way to do it. ACTUALLY it's only an opinion on the grade of quality one expects to be correct. NOW there are parts of the refacing that are NOT acceptable such as the putty cracking etc., etc.


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

Tennessee Tim said:


> I didn't say it's the proper method of finishing , I agree it's not what I would've wanted OR done, BUT it was noted on the contract that's the way it would be done and he agreed AND acknowledged he was told it was what was to be used so that makes that part binding/an agreement in the contract.
> 
> I'm only bringing out the point that IF we sign a contract, we can't wait wait until AFTER it's done to ask others IF it was the best way to do it. ACTUALLY it's only an opinion on the grade of quality one expects to be correct. NOW there are parts of the refacing that are NOT acceptable such as the putty cracking etc., etc.


You are 100% right it says right there in the contract that maple ply was going to be used on the front faces, however the contractor didn't really describe the way in which they would be constructed such as the ply being joined in a way that we would have to paint the edge to cover the plywood core. Nor did he state that the veneer joints wouldn't correspond with the joints in the cabinet's construction. 

The pictures I was shown looked like how I envisioned the work would look like. What was shown to me and the end result are very far apart. I'm not even that concerned with the price per se, I just want the quality/craftsmenship to correspond with the price I paid. If I spend $10k I want work that looks like it's $10k worth.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

eightythree said:


> I can't thank everyone enough for helping me out and getting me on the right track. I have an appointment tomorrow (Tuesday) with the owner coming over. I'm going to go over the work with him and request he go over the fronts with veneers and do them correctly. I couldn't imagine trying to selling this house and having a potential homeowner not notice what I noticed. I've heard time and again kitchens are a big deal when it comes to selling your home so it's important that I do something about this.
> 
> To me, if I was the owner, I wouldn't want pictures of this work in a review like Angie's List/Yelp. I don't think a single person on here has said that this looks like good work. The best comment someone made was that it was average. The images I have shown are just a few of the things were wrong.
> 
> I'll update this thread after I've discussed the issues with the owner.


I agree with you on all points. I actually recent went house shopping (sort of), and the first thing i looked or was fit and finish, e.g does the baseboard molding look good, door frames all square, and yes, do the kitchen cabinets look good. The way i see it, if someone has skimped on those basic, highly visible areas then the non-visible areas are even worse.

I agree with most of the other guys on the contract thing. he contract you signed did specify the cabinets would be faced with a 1/4 veneered ply, but by the same token im fairly certain that somewhere that contract also has a worksmanship guarantee. My opinion is that you are well within your rights to demand the work gets fixed and withhold the remaining payment, given that i doubt the work you received was the worked that was promised. 

Heck, i think i couldve done a better job than that contractor, and im a weekend hackjob. Wouldve at lease made sure the veneer splices matched up


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## 123pugsy (Dec 6, 2014)

Tennessee Tim said:


> I didn't say it's the proper method of finishing , I agree it's not what I would've wanted OR done, BUT it was noted on the contract that's the way it would be done and he agreed AND acknowledged he was told it was what was to be used so that makes that part binding/an agreement in the contract.
> 
> I'm only bringing out the point that IF we sign a contract, we can't wait wait until AFTER it's done to ask others IF it was the best way to do it. ACTUALLY it's only an opinion on the grade of quality one expects to be correct. NOW there are parts of the refacing that are NOT acceptable such as the putty cracking etc., etc.


If the fronts are to be 1/4" thick veneer, then they need to be installed first with the outsides and inside veneers overlapping the thickness of the wood. No?
If the insides are not to be re-veneered, thus lapping the thickness, then the possibility of using the 1/4" material is off the table and the client should be told this.

If it's done wrong, it's done wrong no matter what is stated on a contract.


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

So I finished consulting with the sales guy and he pretty much told me they only use the 1/8in (I guess it's not 1/4in) ply on the faces. He said they wouldn't be able to warranty the work if they did used thin veneer. I'm not sure what I can do short of just holding back the final payment.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The 1/4 is put on the sides and the face pieces should overlap the side flush. A piece of scribe should have been put on to cover the exposed end. You will have a piece of scribe in the front as well as the back. 

The 1/4 plywood wasn't the problem. It is used all the time. Either it was inexperience of the shop workers installing or independent installers. 

Contract or not, the installation wasn't correct. 

Just read your post. i don't know what is left of the final payment. Unless all problems are solved I wouldn't pay...


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

Rebelwork said:


> The 1/4 is put on the sides and the face pieces should overlap the side flush. A piece of scribe should have been put on to cover the exposed end. You will have a piece of scribe in the front as well as the back.
> 
> The 1/4 plywood wasn't the problem. It is used all the time. Either it was inexperience of the shop workers installing or independent installers.
> 
> ...


Hey Rebelwork, could you show me an example of what this looks like? I can't picture it in my head.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Did you meet with the sales guy, or the owner?


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## eightythree (Jan 9, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> Did you meet with the sales guy, or the owner?


Sent out the sales guy. He called the owner on the phone while I was there and the owner said they wouldn't do thin veneer because they wouldn't warranty the work.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I have some pictures somewhere. I'll locate em and see I find one. The pictures were on a whitewash set.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Reading this whole thread, I really believe the work already failed the warranty before it was even completed.

How many openings?

If it was me, getting $2,500 back is not enough, I would want the whole $10,000 back.

If you are planning to sell the home at some point, that work will have to be done over.


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## sancho57 (Oct 23, 2011)

What type of warranty if any did they give you? If its warranted, get them out there and repair it..

10K is a lot of money.


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## JerrySats (Aug 4, 2013)

Just curious how many cabinets you had redone for $10k ?


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## Al_Amantea (Dec 30, 2014)

eightythree said:


> Sent out the sales guy. He called the owner on the phone while I was there and the owner said they wouldn't do thin veneer because they wouldn't warranty the work.


So what was the final outcome here? Did they agree to at least fix the visible edges and the horrible putty job?


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