# Is Bosch The New SawStop?



## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

LINK HERE

I wonder if that SawStop guy is preparing his legal strategy? 

I'm gonna go make some popcorn, this thread may get out of hand. :yes:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

As I was saying in another thread, apparently it is possible.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't think he has much of a case. But he is a greedy jerk, and he will probably sue Bosch anyway.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

he would have no case as the mechanism is completely different.

no way bosch lets other saw makers use it either though. Too bad Im not aware of any bosch table saws worth buying. (hell... I didnt even know bosch made table saws)


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Aw crap, was it really necessary to hit the bees nest with a baseball bat? The festool thread just started calming down...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The Bosch saw could only be a good thing. It would give sawstop some competition where they might start lowering the price of such equipped saws. Personally I don't like the idea of anything electronic being put on woodworking equipment. Electronic devices seem to always malfunction. I can picture a scenario where an employee would get more careless because the saw is equipped with the safety device and when needed the thing would fail. Plus the trend today is for tool manufacturers to quit making parts for their equipment so you pay extra for a saw like that and in maybe 10 to15 years not be able to keep it maintained.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Fst fwd 10 years..........flea bay

For sale;SS cartridge.....buy it now,400$


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I can well imagine there is a bit of panic at a certain company right now, Bosch probably spends as much in a month on research as SS makes in a year on sales.
A non-destructive system, that offers 25 trips before factory servicing sounds pretty appealing, will be interesting if this system is offered to other manufactures.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

BWSmith said:


> Fst fwd 10 years..........flea bay
> 
> 
> 
> For sale;SS cartridge.....buy it now,400$



Flat out conjecture and misinformation. There's been no indication that sawstop isn't supporting their product with anything but excellent service. There's also no indication that the company is faltering. As of today, bosch doesn't make any saw that rivals anything but the sawstop jobsite saw. Bosch hasn't ever made anything to compete in the cabinet saw market, at least in the us. 

Just because the products are made overseas doesn't mean products become obsolete, look at grizzly who has excellent parts availability while having virtually all products manufactured in China


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Flat out conjecture and misinformation. There's been no indication that sawstop isn't supporting their product with anything but excellent service. There's also no indication that the company is faltering. As of today, bosch doesn't make any saw that rivals anything but the sawstop jobsite saw. Bosch hasn't ever made anything to compete in the cabinet saw market, at least in the us.
> 
> Just because the products are made overseas doesn't mean products become obsolete, look at grizzly who has excellent parts availability while having virtually all products manufactured in China


:laughing::laughing: LOL......

Obviously you haven't tried to buy parts for anything grizzly made 10 years ago. Flat out misinformation as you so aptly put it.

Hopefully Bosch and other manufacturers will bury sawstop and in a few years they will have gone the way of the delorean.:thumbdown:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Flat out conjecture and misinformation. There's been no indication that sawstop isn't supporting their product with anything but excellent service. There's also no indication that the company is faltering. As of today, bosch doesn't make any saw that rivals anything but the sawstop jobsite saw. Bosch hasn't ever made anything to compete in the cabinet saw market, at least in the us.
> 
> Just because the products are made overseas doesn't mean products become obsolete, look at grizzly who has excellent parts availability while having virtually all products manufactured in China


The one positive thing I see from this development is that Bosch is primarily a seller of components, hopefully their saw is more to introduce the feature and it will become available to the industry in general.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

FrankC said:


> The one positive thing I see from this development is that Bosch is primarily a seller of components, hopefully their saw is more to introduce the feature and it will become available to the industry in general.



Agree completely.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

wericha said:


> :laughing::laughing: LOL......
> 
> Obviously you haven't tried to buy parts for anything grizzly made 10 years ago. Flat out misinformation as you so aptly put it.
> 
> Hopefully Bosch and other manufacturers will bury sawstop and in a few years they will have gone the way of the delorean.:thumbdown:



I've worked on a few older grizzly machines and never had a problem getting parts, nothing like delta...


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

we have 2 sawstops in our shop, and think they are good and worth the money. but i also think it is great that another company is working their way into this field. things can only get better imho.


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## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

Competition is a good thing. In 2009 I purchased my Unisaw, I looked at the General 350 and the Powermatic 2000. Did not consider the SawStop because of the political crap.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I've worked on a few older grizzly machines and never had a problem getting parts, nothing like delta...


Out of curiosity I looked up parts for a 1994 model table saw and Grizzly parts had in stock every part I looked up.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

just read the linked article. can u say "game changer"?


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

Why is everyone so against Sawstop?

They have a product that works as designed. If you have all of your fingers you'll have no idea how difficult it is do certain things, if you lost a finger(or more) on the tablesaw, you will never forget it. I have lost an inch from a finger, not on a piece of equipment..

Bosch has a gigantic legal defense team...sueing them is pointless and will not be a profitable endeavor IMO...

I also hold a U.S. Patent, I would like to think I know a little about patent infringement...


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

apparently the owner of saw stop has been actively seeking regulation that would require all saws to have his technology installed (as his was the only game in town till now). 

There are some strong feelings about such actions it seems, some think the technology is unnecessary, some seem to only object to the underhanded methods he is using to force it on them..

Im ok with it all, not sure if I would own one if I could afford it, only because Id hate to trip it by accident. But Id definitely put value in this bosch system that doesnt destroy my blade.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

No ruined blade, no ruined brake assembly. 

Can be used on any blade configuration.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

People have been complaining about the idea of the govt being persuaded to force all manufacturers to have 'brake technology' on saws, but this is a perfect situation of the market (companies) doing it themselves. As was said I think this will be a game changer.

If Bosch shares this tech, and I think they will, it might not be too far off before you are not able to find a new saw without this tech.


I personally have never been a fan of a lot of electronics on things. Its nice to be able to have saws that are basically completely mechanical aside from a motor that plugs into a wall.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

TroyG said:


> Why is everyone so against Sawstop?
> 
> They have a product that works as designed. If you have all of your fingers you'll have no idea how difficult it is do certain things, if you lost a finger(or more) on the tablesaw, you will never forget it. I have lost an inch from a finger, not on a piece of equipment..
> 
> ...


It's not the sawstop technology everyone hates, its the attitude of the company. They are trying to maneuver themselves into a position to where they have a complete monopoly on the table saw market in this country. I'm sure folks would be more receptive if they were selling the brake mechanism to other manufacturers but they are not. Also a lot of us are business owners and the insurance companies are upping the rates if you don't have a sawstop saw. The sawstop company is also trying to get the government involved into it forcing businesses to replace their saws with theirs. A sawstop saw costs roughly 20 to 45 percent more than other brands and that hurts if you are forced to get rid of your perfectly good table saws and replace them with sawstop. I saw somewhere at least one location in Canada the school shops were having to replace their saws with the sawstop.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

wonder what the lawsuit would cost if a kid got hurt...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When I was a kid and took shop in school my parents had to sign a document saying they wouldn't hold the school responsible. In that era a document like that was worth something.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

^ Same here. And that was in the 90's for me.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Gass patents are soon to run out. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I heard something about this a while back but didn't have a name with it. How could the dip shizt Gass fight this in court. Makes the Sawstop seem cavemanish. Gee which one would you guys rather have?

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It's not on the market yet, nor does the actual product exist to look at...

Remember when the mid engine corvettes were anointed as the next great supercar....still waiting. 

That said, it does sound like an improvement....which is how technology typically progresses.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

It does sound like an improvement. If they can make it work dependably. 

I think the saw stop will still be a popular saw after this new design goes on sale. Unless Bosch starts making cabinet saws and they're up to the quality standards saw stops are.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It'll be interesting to see if bosch wants to license the technology, as I can't see them getting into cast iron saws. It's an entirely different logistical game than their in.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Thats exactly the reason I see them sharing this tech. Theyve never made anything but job site saws. I dont see them hanging on to it just for that.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Shouldn't it be the SawDrop? Or SawFlop. Downboy from Bosch. Now You SeeMeSaw....

Al


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## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

TroyG said:


> Why is everyone so against Sawstop?
> 
> t...


My objection to SawStop is based on their use of politics and the regulatory agencies to attempt to gain a monopoly.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Soon to be SawStop stop selling due to drop in blades. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

UnisawGuy said:


> My objection to SawStop is based on their use of politics and the regulatory agencies to attempt to gain a monopoly.


Right. Gass is a commie.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Chamfer said:


> Thats exactly the reason I see them sharing this tech. Theyve never made anything but job site saws. I dont see them hanging on to it just for that.


Right but what a better place for it. Bet the inflated table saw injuries are mostly job site injuries.

Bosch is into more products than we can count. 

Al


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## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

UnisawGuy said:


> My objection to SawStop is based on their use of politics and the regulatory agencies to attempt to gain a monopoly.


I don't understand the antipathy toward Gass. He just tried to do what every red blooded American businessman tries to do and that is to restrict competition. Businessmen HATE competition. Nothing destroys profitability more than competition. That's why they form trade associations. That's why there are hundreds of lobbyists working in DC trying to get laws passed to give their business clients an edge. That's why licenses are required for beauticians, plumbers, electricians, doctors etc. They got them required in order to restrict competition. Car dealers getting laws passed to prevent Tesla from selling direct. Big Pharma making minor tweaks to drugs so they can extend their patents and prevent generics. 

Are you guys against American business?


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right but what a better place for it. Bet the inflated table saw injuries are mostly job site injuries.
> 
> Bosch is into more products than we can count.
> 
> Al




Yea JS saws are a great market to launch this into but I think theyll end up giving it to whomever wants to pay. And I think unfortunately that may be more companies than you think.

They could put a small royalty type fee in place that would make it convenient for prospective companies while still making it profitable for them and no one would even think twice.


If this ends up playing out like I think it will it wont just give Gass competition, itll put him out of business.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Zircon said:


> I don't understand the antipathy toward Gass. He just tried to do what every red blooded American businessman tries to do and that is to restrict competition. Businessmen HATE competition. Nothing destroys profitability more than competition. That's why they form trade associations. That's why there are hundreds of lobbyists working in DC trying to get laws passed to give their business clients an edge. That's why licenses are required for beauticians, plumbers, electricians, doctors etc. They got them required in order to restrict competition. Car dealers getting laws passed to prevent Tesla from selling direct. Big Pharma making minor tweaks to drugs so they can extend their patents and prevent generics.
> 
> Are you guys against American business?






You can sum most of that up with GREED. Yes it happens currently but Im not a fan of more people jumping on the wagon.


And no Im not against small bizz, Im against corporations.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I don't know much about this Gass feller other than what I've read on this forum, but I'll say this. I have no problem with someone coming up with a great idea and trying to make as much money as possible. But when you try to force everyone else to use it when they don't want to, under the guise of safety, that's a bulls*** move. 

What he wants to do is make his technology a monopoly, which according to the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1889, is illegal.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Who wants to bet that Bosch will come out with a cabinet saw with their brake on it.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Mort said:


> I don't know much about this Gass feller other than what I've read on this forum, but I'll say this. I have no problem with someone coming up with a great idea and trying to make as much money as possible. But when you try to force everyone else to use it when they don't want to, under the guise of safety, that's a bulls*** move.
> 
> What he wants to do is make his technology a monopoly, which according to the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1889, is illegal.


I dont believe you can enforce a patent if it creates a monopoly...

Based on the abundance of myths stated as fact in this thread, I have a suspicion that the general understanding of this entire situation is largely false.

but that how politics on the internet generally goes.


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

Bosch already has some competition with a non destructive flesh sensing blade stopping device and this one is compatible with just about any saw.....

http://stusshed.com/2011/01/19/whirlwind-a-new-sawstop/

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> Who wants to bet that Bosch will come out with a cabinet saw with their brake on it.



I'd bet hundreds against This. 1. They don't make any cast iron tools now, the manufacturing facilities for this are totally different. 

2. They don't have the distribution channels to support it, it's not enough to to have lowes and hd on board, you need the woodcraft, rocklers, and commercial tool shops on board. 

3. Last but not least, it's a heavily saturated market, this isn't easy to break into


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Part of the problem is OSHA.........at least how I see it.

SS and the new technology Bosch is developing does nothing to prevent accidents.Which is what OSHA predicates on.....and honestly so do we,at our shop.

Building/marketing a "hammer" that dosen't hurt "quite" as bad when you smash your finger isn't the same as making it impossible to smash your finger in the first place.This was the position OSHA took early on twds SS,at least how it was explained to me.No,it was insurance co's pushing the technology.......they don't know,and don't give a rip about machine design.It's all about their pay out....and pushing forth their agenda(scare tactics).

Personally,I hope Bosch buries SS.....and it's only partly because of the greed thing.The majority of my dislike(putting it mildly) is the absolutely ignorant notion of destroying an expensive part to make a product.Especially when there was already existing methodologies that PREVENT the occurance in the first place.

TS's are the most bassakwards machine to be invented.....like looking down the wrong end of a gun.IMO,Mr Gass took that ,as his main advantage when he went looking for a product.It wasn't safety.....it was a direct,targeted product to instill fear into the home table saw,user mrkt.And then leverage that(insurance co),to be used against pro shops.

Just the way I see it.On the flea bay thing,which was 'sposed to be eerily funny...or so strange but true.Never worry,some Chinese co will pirate a brake if there's any way to make money at it.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

saw step spent years trying (unsuccessfully) to license their tech to all of the saw makers. Only after the deals reached a standstill did they make their own saw.

The companies were unwilling to pay royalties and wanted to dump all liability on SS despite being the manufacturer. They also argued about the cost. Instead now, all saws have guards claiming it was just as good and "there are no reports of injuries by a saw with a guard".

Maybe bosch will let them have it for less money... sounds like saw stop wasnt the only one thinking with the wallet before, wouldnt count on it happening now.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> Based on the abundance of myths stated as fact in this thread, I have a suspicion that the general understanding of this entire situation is largely false.


That's pretty much the filter I use whenever you or another individual start pontificating on here :thumbsup:


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

bauerbach said:


> saw step spent years trying (unsuccessfully) to license their tech to all of the saw makers. Only after the deals reached a standstill did they make their own saw.
> 
> The companies were unwilling to pay royalties and wanted to dump all liability on SS despite being the manufacturer. They also argued about the cost. Instead now, all saws have guards claiming it was just as good and "there are no reports of injuries by a saw with a guard".
> 
> Maybe bosch will let them have it for less money... sounds like saw stop wasnt the only one thinking with the wallet before, wouldnt count on it happening now.


And we have a winner !!! Somebody fully understands the concept of having a start up businees such as SS had at the time, they explored the licensing side, no luck, regulation side, no luck...manufacturing side...expensive but....

I have a scenario for everyone, would you knowingly drink a drink at a restaurant if they used a washed out paint bucket to transfer the ice for your drink? 
OR
Would you drink the same drink that the ice came from a clear bucket that is mandated by the government?

Your choice......


You can thank me for the design of the clear bucket while you enjoy that drink...I get absolutely NO money from it...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*someone brought up guns*

First rule of gun safety is "all guns are loaded"
Second rule is "don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot"
Third rule is "keep your finger off the trigger until you want to fire"

Tables saws have safety rules also, but aren't well respected because a table saw theoretically can't kill you unlike a gun.... well unless you bleed out from the injury. 

There is a 3" "safety zone" in front and all around the blade where caution must be used when entering.
1. use only straight and flat wood against the fence.
2. use a splitter or riving knife to prevent wood closure and to maintain registration against the fence when ripping.
3. use a blade cover when practical.
4. have a off feed table to catch and support all the workpieces and NEVER reach over or around the blade to retrieve loose pieces.
5. have the on/off switch easily available using a knee or hip to turn it off.
6. keep a clean area on top of the saw and around the base
7. use a clean sharp blade and a controlled feed rate.
8. push narrow pieces beyond the blade with a push block.
9. stand to one side when ripping long narrow piece which may propel rearwards.
10. know where the blade path is at all times and keep your hands and fingers well away.

If everyone would respect the rules above, it's my opinion that most if not all table saw "accidents" would be eliminated. :yes: FYI I have never been cut by a blade under power.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> First rule of gun safety is "all guns are loaded"
> Second rule is "don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot"
> Third rule is "keep your finger off the trigger until you want to fire"
> 
> ...


We need to get this posted as a sticky in the power tools section. Everybody whos ever used a table saw needs to know these rules


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> First rule of gun safety is "all guns are loaded"
> Second rule is "don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot"
> Third rule is "keep your finger off the trigger until you want to fire"
> 
> ...


I can't argue with those simple rules...and I haven't been cut by a moving blade either..although I do some really stupid dangerous stuff.


But then again there are warnings on curling irons that clearly say "For external use only".....let that sink in for a minute and chuckle..


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

BWSmith said:


> Part of the problem is OSHA.........at least how I see it.
> 
> SS and the new technology Bosch is developing does nothing to prevent accidents.Which is what OSHA predicates on.....and honestly so do we,at our shop.
> 
> ...


To be clear. If there is no employee employer relationship OSHA has nothing to do or say. They are only there to protect the employee in the work place by overseeing what the employer provides under the guidelines. OSHA has nothing to do with any other relationship or workers who are not employing anyone. They certainly have no business or power to tell me how to work in my own shop.

Agreed, Gass will be the odd man out soon. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> First rule of gun safety is "all guns are loaded"
> Second rule is "don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot"
> Third rule is "keep your finger off the trigger until you want to fire"
> 
> ...


I like everything but (6). Just don't see the need to quickly turn off a table saw. Won't help you in any situation I can think of. Blade doesn't stop fast after the power is off anyway. Most times when there is a kickback or you cut your finger. The last thing you need to do is shut off the saw. Can't think of any reason I would want to shut off the saw with my knee. 

Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*haven't tried, don't knock it*



Al B Thayer said:


> I like everything but (6). Just don't see the need to quickly turn off a table saw. Won't help you in any situation I can think of. Blade doesn't stop fast after the power is off anyway. Most times when there is a kickback or you cut your finger. The last thing you need to do is shut off the saw. Can't think of any reason I would want to shut off the saw with my knee.
> 
> Al



1. If you have to lean over to reach or see the switch your eyes are NOT looking where they should be and if anything shoots back toward you at that level your eyes will get struck first.
2. If you want to shut down the saw and retain control of both workpieces pieces, say for a stopped cut or any other reason ....bump and it's off, no reaching, leaning, bending or guessing to find the switch.
3. Suppose your wood closes on the back of the blade and rather than stall the motor, or trip the breaker all it takes is a ...bump and it's off while you maintain control with one or both hands.
Finally, it's not about immediately shutting down the saw, but it's as good as you can get without a motor brake. Often it's not even a safety issue, I just bump it off because I can. I would not have a saw without a OFF switch I can bump off in an emergency. Once you try it, I'll bet a chicken dinner you'll like it.

The left hand saw has one also:


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

As always great advice Wood. 

I like all the rules and they are or were basic ones taught to me when I was younger. Although I dont adhere to all of them today the majority that I do follow Im sure is part of whats helped me stay intact thus far.

Ive only ever had one kick back and that was because I wasnt maintaining material to fence alignment. Contrary to what people think you actually can cut a slight curve on a TS, for a second or two.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

TroyG said:


> And we have a winner !!! Somebody fully understands the concept of having a start up businees such as SS had at the time, they explored the licensing side, no luck, regulation side, no luck...manufacturing side...expensive but....
> 
> I have a scenario for everyone, would you knowingly drink a drink at a restaurant if they used a washed out paint bucket to transfer the ice for your drink?
> OR
> ...


Why do you need government to tell you where clean water comes from? 

BTW a washed out paint bucket would be fine for me. Because I actually know there is nothing wrong with a washed out paint bucket. Even if government says there is. Thank God for the liberty we have been given.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> 1. If you have to lean over to reach or see the switch your eyes are NOT looking where they should be and if anything shoots back toward you at that level your eyes will get struck first.
> 2. If you want to shut down the saw and retain control of both workpieces pieces, say for a stopped cut or any other reason ....bump and it's off, no reaching, leaning, bending or guessing to find the switch.
> 3. Suppose your wood closes on the back of the blade and rather than stall the motor, or trip the breaker all it takes is a ...bump and it's off while you maintain control with one or both hands.
> Finally, it's not about immediately shutting down the saw, but it's as good as you can get without a motor brake. Often it's not even a safety issue, I just bump it off because I can. I would not have a saw without a OFF switch I can bump off in an emergency. Once you try it, I'll bet a chicken dinner you'll like it.
> ...


Well okay but not my cup of switch. I know before I make the cut exactly what both pieces are going to do. It's a study I make while setting the fence and turning the saw on. It's really something I do well, making cuts on my Uni. Never had a kick back on this saw. Got all 10. Shoot with the Unifence I can hang two fingers over the side which keeps the other two in check. 

But if I get another saw and it comes with one of those stop signs thingies. I know who to send it to. 

Al


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

Al B Thayer said:


> Why do you need government to tell you where clean water comes from?
> BTW a washed out paint bucket would be fine for me. Because I actually know there is nothing wrong with a washed out paint bucket. Even if government says there is. Thank God for the liberty we have been given.
> Al


It's not so much to tell you where the ice comes from as it is to prevent some half baked stoner kid making $8/hr from grabbing the mop bucket that was loaded with bleach and filling up the ice bin with it...

I can argue my case for either till I'm blue in the face, but facts are facts...people make mistakes. I did and lost part of a finger. 

SS is intended to prevent you from losing a body part, it works, we have all seen the video..agreed?

The guy tried his best to sell the license to every saw maker out there, and they refused his offer...maybe it was too high, maybe they should have negotiated better..If a guy wants to make as much money as possible by doing the least amount of work and he has a product that works, no doubt....AND it may potentially save you from a lawsuit by some ambulance chasing catastophic personal injury attorney..You may want to give the man that 5 or 10% cut he's asking for...Case in point?

Suzuki Samarai

You just never know how those 12 people are gonna vote, especially when they here the phase " Wasn't you're company offered a device to prevent such an injury and you declined it?" And the answer is YES.

I LOVE Bosch products personally and pro...I think it will be an excellent product, I think it will make SS prices fall through the floor...And at the end of the day, that my friends it what business is all about...MONEY.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...t-says-suzuki-samurai-is-unsafe-seeks-refunds


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Troy, it's either in this thread or another going on right now that a few people claim they don't believe sawstop works as advertised, no proof of this, but their gut tells them so. 

It will be interesting to see if bosch licenses it to someone making a cast iron saw, otherwise it's a moot point to woodworkers.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Bosch isn't the only company making a device. There is Whirlwind Tool Co in Massachusetts that has come up with a system that will stop the saw if your hands get too close the blade. Actual contact with the blade is unnecessary.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Bosch isn't the only company making a device. There is Whirlwind Tool Co in Massachusetts that has come up with a system that will stop the saw if your hands get too close the blade. Actual contact with the blade is unnecessary.


I wouldn't hold your breath on that system, particularly since Bosch has got in on the action and is possibly a better alternative.

However if you want to be an investor it sounds like they will welcome you.

More the merrier, nothing like competition to level the playing field.


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> Troy, it's either in this thread or another going on right now that* a few people claim they don't believe* sawstop works as advertised, no proof of this, but their gut tells them so.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if bosch licenses it to someone making a cast iron saw, otherwise it's a moot point to woodworkers.


Keyword in that statement...Claim

Would those who make these claims be willing to touch that blade and see if it works?

While they are sitting behind a keyboard, I can bet my coffee they will say yes.

Let me be clear on one fact, I do not own a SS saw, I have a Dewalt hybid..DW746 and the guard is not in place..however I do have a riving knife setup that I created from an old thin kerf blade, it works great and it is almost safe.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Does anyone think sawstop developed and marketed a saw without testing?? I'm confident they have multimillion dollar insurance policies that also required testing to get the policies. There's not one documented case of the technology not working that I can find online, however there are cases of it working out there.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

TroyG said:


> Keyword in that statement...Claim
> 
> Would those who make these claims be willing to touch that blade and see if it works?
> 
> ...


hell no, Im not touching a blade to test it. Im also not driving my car into a wall to prove out the airbags, Im not staring down the barrel of my gun even after I clear the chamber.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would be willing to touch the blade to test it. Touching the teeth would be another story.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I would be willing to touch the blade to test it. Touching the teeth would be another story.


actually.... that might be dangerous... the blade yanks down from the brake force, the edge of the teeth might slice your finger on the way down


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> actually.... that might be dangerous... the blade yanks down from the brake force, the edge of the teeth might slice your finger on the way down


I didn't know the blade lowered too. I thought it just stopped.


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> Bosch isn't the only company making a device. There is Whirlwind Tool Co in Massachusetts that has come up with a system that will stop the saw if your hands get too close the blade. Actual contact with the blade is unnecessary.


I considered that device a couple of years ago (I posted a link to the video in post 43 above) however I chose to continue following the same guidelines as woodnthings posted and built my own blade guard that wasn't so "clunky" IMO. 

In any case as has been mentioned many times before the most dangerous piece of equipment in any shop is the user that doesn't follow proper safety guidelines. That said I believe the guy that gets his fingers close enough to a spinning blade to trip one of these devices may end up getting injured on some other non flesh sensing piece of machinery anyway since he quite possibly doesn't consistently follow proper safety guidelines.


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

bauerbach said:


> actually.... that might be dangerous... the blade yanks down from the brake force, the edge of the teeth might slice your finger on the way down


Oops! Just noticed he was talking about touching the side of the blade in which case I'd agree!


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Why would the doubters be the ones wanting to stick there hand in it to prove it works? I already dont think it works lol. Seems like the PRO supporters would be the ones to test it since they have so much faith.


The videos that Ive seen are not by any means 'real world' situations. Just because there havent been any accidents in the news doesnt prove anything. Its like the saying 'I cant prove it exists but you cant prove that it doesnt'. 

A lack of proof has never led to truth.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

With thousands or tens of thousands of saws out there, If it didn't work there would be a class action lawsuit by now. 

As someone else pointed out...you don't test your airbags to make sure they work, nor the gfi outlets, or most other safety devices, so why this one??


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I dont need to test those because Ive seen them work firsthand, although thats no guarantee theyll work when needed.

I have yet to see any real world proof (not marketing videos) that it works. Youre going off the statistical assumption that because X amount of saws are out there and we havent seen it on the news means theres PROBABLY never been any accidents.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Well.....Discovery channel did a segment and Steve stuck both a hotdog at full speed, and his own finger into one. Discovery filmed it all.....including high speed cameras. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

A video with a hotdog at about the speed you'd be cutting.....filmed at a public event with the general public in attendance. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulfgP8BVuxw


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Cabinetmaker magazine testing....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_CBxIvgnpE


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Sincity woodworkers testing....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AygWhR2E6Kc


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Best one....no hotdog....the guys actual thumb....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUjat1JA_rw


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Search youtube....there's hundreds of test videos....

I can't find one.....not one....example of it not working. The statistics here are pretty damning....


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Everyone of those videos was way to slow. You would be ripping much faster. How many rpm do those SS run?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The last one's not cutting all that slow.....I don't jam my wood through a blade.... 

Everyone can stick their head in the sand all they want, but the system works.....one great thing about the internet is that information is easily available, and makes it's way to the masses very quickly. Do a youtube search on sawstop test....there's page upon page of positive results....not one failure I can find.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

I want to know what would happen if one was to trip and fall into the blade with say there forearm. So the blade would on a normal saw, cross cut there arm in half.


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## Smith Brother (Dec 9, 2012)

Does their INSTRUCTIONS with a saw say ANYTHING, about the speed you push the material into the blade?

I didn't hear any of the test people commenting on such, seems if that is an issue, it WOULD be discussed. 

People fought seat belts, and air bags too,

Dale in Indy


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

BigJoe16 said:


> I want to know what would happen if one was to trip and fall into the blade with say there forearm. So the blade would on a normal saw, cross cut there arm in half.



It doesn't matter what it is you touch it with......arm, finger, hotdog, nail....rear end.......it works on electrical conductivity....


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

smithbrother said:


> Does their INSTRUCTIONS with a saw say ANYTHING, about the speed you push the material into the blade?
> 
> I didn't hear any of the test people commenting on such, seems if that is an issue, it WOULD be discussed.
> 
> ...



It does say what it's reaction time is....1/1000th of a second. Even if you were feeding at 50 feet a minute (pretty darn impossible).....you'd have moved .01 inches into the blade by the time it retracted and stopped....so ok....if you're feeding at a rate that I'm pretty confident you can't feed at through anything other than cardboard.....you might get a scratch.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> It doesn't matter what it is you touch it with......arm, finger, hotdog, nail....rear end.......it works on electrical conductivity....


I know. I know it will trip and work as it's supposed to. 

I ment how it would work as far as the injury to the person. With his arm falling fast and with some force behind it I was wondering how bad the cut would be.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Since the blade stops in 1/1000 of a second.....i'd say none....the blade retracts at faster than the speed of acceleration so you'd have to be trying to fall faster than just falling into it.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

theoreticly youd be safer falling on the saw while running than while off...

I just read the cost is $1500. so uhhh yeah.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Actually that's true....cause if it's not running you'd still get a puncture wound with no guard on.....while off it'd retract.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> theoreticly youd be safer falling on the saw while running than while off...
> 
> I just read the cost is $1500. so uhhh yeah.


Not if you lower the blade below the table while not in use. The cheapest saw stop is $1700.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Does anyone lower the blade after every use?? Mine stays at 1.25 inches up almost always.....


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> The cheapest saw stop is $1700.



The jobsite saw is 1299 and the cheapest cast iron saw is 1599. 

http://www.woodcraft.com/brands/2390/Sawstop.aspx?sort=priceA


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Does anyone lower the blade after every use?? Mine stays at 1.25 inches up almost always.....


If I need to work on my saw top I lower the blade. A better question is how many people fall onto a stopped table saw?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> If I need to work on my saw top I lower the blade. A better question is how many people fall onto a stopped table saw?


I'm wondering how many people fall on a saw running or not? I've never come close.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Lol....a very valid point...


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm amazed at the people pining for SawFlop that will never buy one. 

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Oh?? I'll never buy one?? Well since my wife's green lighted it already.....I guess I better change my mind...

I came real close to ordering one last week.....but ordered a new bandsaw instead since my table saw is perfectly functional right now.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> I didn't know the blade lowered too. I thought it just stopped.


I saw it demo'd. It does lower if it doesn't get hung up on the hot dog.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

Don’t say Bosch doesn’t make cast iron. They most certainly do. They make cast iron parts for automotive applications. Lot of parts. They know how to work with cast iron, aluminum, pot metal etc. They make cast aluminum parts for their saws now. Its just a slightly different foundry retooling to make cast iron as well. Remember, this is a HUGE company that makes more than you realize. They know how to make stuff!

Do not be naïve about big business which is the game Bosch plays. Do not underestimate their business prowess. Its more than enough to have JUST Lowes OR Depot onboard. They have better disty channels than SawSop could ever dream of…hell, Gass would piss himself if either Blue or Orange wanted to carry his gear. They don’t because it does not fit their business model. Woodcraft, Rockler and Grizzly combined have nowhere near the market share of even Sears much less Lowes or Depot. They are the niche market. Just the economy of scale alone from either one of those two is enough to eviscerate SawStop’s current business model…assuming that’s what Bosch wanted to accomplish. If they were to make a cast iron hybrid/contractor style saw along the lines of the Delta Lowes has or The Ridgid Depot has, sell Little Boy for something around $1000 they would likey dry up the $1200 contractor all together and the $1600 SawStop contractor saw sales for a while drop to almost nothing…eventually they would have to take a sharp downward kick on the price point across the line. Margin percentages would have to come off both sides but you get down too close to 15% for the retailers and you might find them relegated floor model only across the line…get too much below that and you might find them as order only if at all. Then they go ahead put out the first cabinet saw and drop Fat Man on Nagasaki just cause’ya can. (I realize Bosch is German and this tasteless semi-analogy was the US kicking Japan around but had they not bitten off more than they could chew it might have been the krauts!  )

Instinct says that if they are going to go through the trouble to develop this kind of tech they are going to use it and use it HARD. While Bosch does not have much of a history at that kind of aggressive business tactic themselves, if they license or OEM their ‘safety tech’ then all bets are off and you will just see a different logo on the bomber firebombing SawStop’s factory! Economy of scale kicks in and in a cold ironic twist of fate, the stupid gooberment no longer needs to mandate that which Gass has been trying to get passed but he is left begging to sell his tech to some OEM that wasn’t interested before and now might buy it as a short sell and his dreams of a 120 footer are reduced to an occasional 30 ft charter in the off season. 

And lastly, Bosch does not need to break into “the market”. In many ways they are already. For them to jump into a new product line would not be difficult and probably very welcomed by reputation alone. They have a serious brand reputation in MANY industries, not just tools. They command a premium over many other brands across the board. They would be taken seriously and all they need to do to cement that in place is not make any huge mistakes with their first models from a quality and functionality perspective and they win a seat at the table as a foregone conclusion.

******

I don’t get those that doubt the tech either. I have witnessed it work in the real world. I have also witnessed it false fire too. To me like many others it is an unnecessary safety. Personally I hate it and would not own one unless you gave it to me and with way to bypass the safety till I wanted it back on and not the auto turn on it has now. The best safety is between your ears…well, it should be anyway. If we need an electro-safety on dangerous shop gear then where is the one on the band saw, shaper and jointer. I personally think the band saw is a considerably more dangerous saw to operate than a table saw.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Someday when I have time I may actually read some of the rambling posts here.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

FrankC said:


> Someday when I have time I may actually read some of the rambling posts here.


I'd avoid it if you value your sanity, or faith in people to have a coherent conversation...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I agree on the Bosch post except ...*

The bandsaw saw is not more dangerous, it just appears that way. I don't have accident stats for the bandsaw but I'll wager a chicken dinner they are way less than the tablesaw... reason being the physics if the cutting action is always down towards the table, no rotation ether for or aft. Further, less folks own one, a WAG, than tablesaws so fewer "accidents". I had some experience as a former university Design Instructor teaching young female Art students the creative uses of the bandsaw and you would not believe all the rules we broke making their projects.... stuff you wouldn't dream could be done. None of them had ever used a power tool before and no fingers were was lost or destroyed in the 2 years of my teaching "experience". 
:no:


And yes, Frank lots of rambling, conjecture, speculation, chest thumping, hair pulling and verbosity expressed within... carry on guys.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Probably the reason there isn't as many accidents on a bandsaw as a table saw is not as many people have a bandsaw as a table saw. Usually when a person gets hurt is when they let their guard down and get too comfortable with a machine. I think a person would get comfortable around a bandsaw easier than a tablesaw.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

A few things. 1. Home Depot and lowes have no interest in carrying 1500+ dollar cabinet saws, they both got out of the serious stationary tool business years ago. The turns on items with that price range are just too low. Also, I'm not aware of any retailer that's willing to sell low turn items for 15% margins. Certainly not Home Depot or lowes. Those kinds of low margins are for commodity and high turn competitive items only. 

2. Bosch does have a lot of manufacturing capabilities your right, but the aluminum foundries they're using now for their jobsite saws is not just a "retooling away" from making cast iron contractor saws. Yes they could find one, but stationary cast iron tools isn't in their wheel house. I see them developing this for their jobsite saws. 

3. Brand equity doesn't just instantly translate to new segments, and portable power tools and stationary tools are two different markets. Cases include delta trying to sell battery drills a few years back, and the early 2000's dewalt cast iron table saws. Just because you buy yellow drills doesn't mean you'll buy yellow table saws. 

4. I suspect the band saw lack of injuries goes to two things, they're not as common as table saws, and the blade guides work as a very large visible reference to where the blade is. Also, with the guide in place it would be much harder to run your hand through the blade than on a table saw. Last but not least, on a band saw its less often that your running long pieces through that make you complacent like on a table saw....resawing obviously is the exception here.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

*Band Saw With No Guard*

If you feel a nick just yell stop!


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> A few things. 1. Home Depot and lowes have no interest in carrying 1500+ dollar cabinet saws, they both got out of the serious stationary tool business years ago. The turns on items with that price range are just too low. Also, I'm not aware of any retailer that's willing to sell low turn items for 15% margins. Certainly not Home Depot or lowes. Those kinds of low margins are for commodity and high turn competitive items only.
> 
> 2. Bosch does have a lot of manufacturing capabilities your right, but the aluminum foundries they're using now for their jobsite saws is not just a "retooling away" from making cast iron contractor saws. Yes they could find one, but stationary cast iron tools isn't in their wheel house. I see them developing this for their jobsite saws.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what the control module or cell phone connectivity stuff is on the bosch... but their 4100 table saw is $600, this one is $1500... Maybe the electronics cost $900, or maybe the saw has significant improvements over the 4100 in other areas...

But I would speculate that they might be making a VERY healthy margin, enough to share with retail stores to make it worth their while...


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## centerisl (Jan 2, 2015)

TroyG said:


> ...however I do have a riving knife setup that I created from an old thin kerf blade, it works great *and it is almost safe*.


Just curious - what's the difference between "almost safe" and "not safe"?


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## centerisl (Jan 2, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Probably the reason there isn't as many accidents on a bandsaw as a table saw is not as many people have a bandsaw as a table saw. Usually when a person gets hurt is when they let their guard down and get too comfortable with a machine. I think a person would get comfortable around a bandsaw easier than a tablesaw.


Well, that and I've never heard of a "jobsite bandsaw". I think part of it's comfort and part of it is bravado - and construction workers are not short on that second characteristic.


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## TroyG (Mar 17, 2015)

centerisl said:


> Just curious - what's the difference between "almost safe" and "not safe"?


It depends on whether I'm using a thin kerf blade or a full kerf blade to make my cuts...the knife is made from a used thin kerf so it works very well when I cut with a thin kerf blade. If I switch to a full kerf, I have to pay closer attention to possibility of a cut closing up slightly...it has happened..

Having a welding shop and woodworking shop has it's advantages..


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

Well in reality the most dangerous tool in any garage is you :thumbsup:

100%, hands down undisputed champion! With the exception of tool failures and malfunctions it is us, the operators who are responsible for injuries. Complacency and fatigue are probably the biggest issues. I think we all know that though.

One thing about statistics is when you torture the numbers long enough they will tell you what ever you want to hear. On this topic I wonder what the percentages look like? I doubt anyone has them so its a lot of speculation on our parts and bias based on our own experiences influences opinions but the real numbers would be interesting. 

No doubt there are more table saws in garages around the world than band saws. If we expressed the injury rate as a percentage I wonder which has drawn more blood/caused more stitches? I suspect the TS might be better at removing finger tips but I also bet the #1 injury cause'er on its resume is kick back? 

My bias towards the band saw cause its the one that did the biggest number on me. It didnt 'feel' as dangerous to me at the time. But you have your fingers closer to the blade feeding the work and push sticks/pads are not generally practical. In my case it was focusing on the work piece too far from the blade and in a fraction of a seconds contact with the blade I got 16 stitches. In contrast I have been nicked by the table saw once and a simple band-aid was sufficient. In the past I treated them with different levels of respect. 

Not argument here...pure curiosity and it got me to googleing. Check this one out of you haven't seen it before...never considered the CSM in the way they mention it here. Goes to show how my #1 holds true...I am the most dangerous tool in my shop :yes:

http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2007/0...op-ten-most-dangerous-woodworking-power-tools


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## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. Gass is a commie.
> 
> Al


Wrong.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

centerisl said:


> Well, that and I've never heard of a "jobsite bandsaw". I think part of it's comfort and part of it is bravado - and construction workers are not short on that second characteristic.


Probably won't get much argument there as most of those construction workers are too busy actually using tools to make a living so don't have time to sit at a keyboard defending themselves.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

FrankC said:


> centerisl said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that and I've never heard of a "jobsite bandsaw". I think part of it's comfort and part of it is bravado - and construction workers are not short on that second characteristic.
> ...


They certainly won't have the high post counts like some of our resident "experts"


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## Smith Brother (Dec 9, 2012)

An EXPERT is someone that borrows YOUR watch to TELL, (YOU), what time it is.....

Dale in Indy


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

wericha said:


> They certainly won't have the high post counts like some of our resident "experts"


seems like your posts in this thread have devolved from a discussion to pure underhand insults on other members. Good news is, I added you to my ignore list, I invite you to do the same


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> seems like your posts in this thread have devolved from a discussion to pure underhand insults on other members. Good news is, I added you to my ignore list, I invite you to do the same


I came very close to deleting this post for that reason.


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## Brentley (Dec 2, 2012)

centerisl said:


> Well, that and I've never heard of a "jobsite bandsaw". I think part of it's comfort and part of it is bravado - and construction workers are not short on that second characteristic.


they make a portable bandsaw that electricians and plumbers use to cut pipes with. It has about 3 inch blade. That is what you see on the job site.

But to get back to the topic at hand, Bosch is clearly going after the trades market here, not the furniture making demographic. Most accidents are job site related (the big lawsuit around table saws was filed against Ryobi for a defective job site saw) and while they do occur in other arenas they are overwhelmingly jobsite related (including my brother, who cut himself very badly on a table saw but did not lose any digits). 

And I have seen the Rockler hot dog demo and believe that a saw stop works. Plus in my opinion the design and workmanship on the saw stop itself is first rate. Some may dislike the attempts to legislate your product advantage but it is part of the game.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

Mafell makes a portable bandsaw. 

http://timberwolftools.com/tools/mafell/MAF-Z5Ec.html

A tad spendy, though. Mafell makes Festool seem like a bargain.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I think the Bosch method could be the way things go for other manufacturers. Clearly it's go a leg up on SS because it doesn't trash the blade. To make the blade drop in a heartbeat would not be too hard to come up with a system others could bring along.

Making the blade drop seems easier than making a fast moving blade slam on the breaks.

Al


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> I think the Bosch method could be the way things go for other manufacturers. Clearly it's go a leg up on SS because it doesn't trash the blade. To make the blade drop in a heartbeat would not be too hard to come up with a system others could bring along.
> 
> Making the blade drop seems easier than making a fast moving blade slam on the breaks.
> 
> Al


I kinda agree... but I mean... the blade is kinda hard mounted, not like you can push the blade down into the table.

wonder where they created a break. Could you implement it on a cabinet saw and would it affect the function/stability on a more powerful saw.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> I kinda agree... but I mean... the blade is kinda hard mounted, not like you can push the blade down into the table.
> 
> wonder where they created a break. Could you implement it on a cabinet saw and would it affect the function/stability on a more powerful saw.


All blades go into the table now, it is just a matter of getting them to drop a lot faster than if you manually lower the blade, which it seems they have.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

yeah, but this is a completely different mechanism. Assuming most raise or lower on some sort of gear or screw, they have to be dropping the blade through a different method.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The sawstop retracts the blade as well....so this isn't anything new.


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## Kirby Hidy (Apr 3, 2012)

As I recall, the Sawstop technology was offered to every table saw manufacturer here and abroad and it was turned down. I think in part, the Deltas, PMs, Generals etc were not convinced the market would pay that much more for this new safety feature. I also think, in part, manufacturers feared incorporating or making such technology optional was tacit admission that their equipment wasn't safe. In my opinion, the biggest mistake SS made was going to Washington in an attempt to have the legislature or whatever governing body, make inclusion of the technology mandatory. Most people don't like being told they HAVE to do or buy or incorporate anything. Consider how long it took seat belts to be accepted even after the law that you had to wear them was passed. 

I don't own a SS but hope to one day. At my age I consider it a "paid up insurance policy" so I tend to welcome any competition that lowers price and/or improves the technology on something as proven as Sawstop.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> yeah, but this is a completely different mechanism. Assuming most raise or lower on some sort of gear or screw, they have to be dropping the blade through a different method.


Well another example would be a wood vise, it is operated with a screw yet there is a quick release to move them in or out manually.

I am sure the engineers at Bosch are quite capable considering this is using their air bag technology.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

what works for a direct drive job site saw may not work for a 3-5hp cabinet saw. Atleast not without modification.

But we will see! I hope it does branch out.

edit: if this is direct drive, I dont know.


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

I have been reading through this thread and there is a lot of good discussion. I will throw in my $.02 and some discussion. First, I will disclose that I bought a SawStop. I have "own occupation" disability insurance so I make a lot of money the rest of my life if I cut off a finger. With that said, I spend my life and make my living sewing fingers back on and there is no price worth losing any portion of your finger--I don't care if I have insurance and don't care how much a SawStop costs...to be me personally even a few millimeters of my finger is priceless.

A few random comments from earlier posts:
1) There is a video out there where Steve Gass puts his finger into the blade (slowly, but he does it). And yes, it is into the teeth, not the side. At least he backed up his words!

2) I think we can accept that SawStop works. With all the naysayers, don't you think it would make headline news if it failed even once? I am not aware of any failures--I did some research. Still not to be fully "trusted" blindly, but I don't think you can argue it isn't reliable and functional.

3) I understand why people hate Gass for his approach to things. But, at the same time, he invented the technology and tried to license it and has gone out on a limb to show there is a market so you can't fault him too much. I agree--it is easy to hate big corporations. I do think his approach to lawmakers is a bit aggressive and underhanded but I do not fault him for wanting to make a lot of money. His technology creates a slight moral complex--like if you found a cure for cancer but no one wanted to buy it from you for a fair price would you just give it to people for free? So, I don't fault him for trying to make money. But, I understand how his approach makes him hate-able.

4) I applaud Bosch and am glad that they are entering the market. I hope others will follow. Competition drives prices down and quality up. While I don't agree with making it law to have the technology, wouldn't it be great if it were standard AND the prices were fair and affordable to most folks?

5) There have been great tips on this thread and others about using a tablesaw safely. Everyone knows that most accidents are user error. But, I always get frustrated when folks act like there is no danger because they are very safe. We are all playing with fire to a certain extent. No one has made an error until they make an error. Just because you or I have a perfect safety record now doesn't mean we always will. Eventually we will all age--one day we may all find out the hard way that our reflexes, hand-eye coordination, etc. are not what they used to be. No one wakes up one day and says "today I am too old to use my saw safely." Plus there are uncontrollable events--a kid may run in the garage and distract you, an animal could startle you, a bee could sting you, and dare I say that at some point, each and every one of us will lose focus every so briefly. So, can we please all accept that the first priority--regardless of the technology or tool--is to use to be safe and careful. With that said, an accident CAN happen to absolutely anyone so safety features are always useful. NBA players occassionally miss a lay up even if they make 999,999 out of a million...mistakes can always happen. Do your best to avoid them, but no one is immune!

5) Lastly, I would love to hear more about this Whirlwind technology. I saw it years ago but haven't heard any more about it. Is it available? Seems like a product with good potential!

Keep the great discussion going--always very informative! And, thanks for that list of tablesaw tips for safety--I am going to print that out!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It appears the guy trying to develop the whirlwind tech has now moved on to solely trying to sell off the technology. He was for a long time trying to find investors to develop it, his website now says he's looking to sell it to someone else to run with it. 


And everyone knows the Steve Gass video must be staged....after all he's a commie trying to destroy the American Dream and apple pie. (Sarcasm noted). 

As I'm sure you found here upon reading the last few pages, using logic and examples of the technology working isn't convincing those who feel their liberty has been attacked. To them it doesn't matter that example after example shows it works, it must not work because it's invented by a guy who they feel is underhanded and it's manufactured in China of all places.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> It appears the guy trying to develop the whirlwind tech has now moved on to solely trying to sell off the technology. He was for a long time trying to find investors to develop it, his website now says he's looking to sell it to someone else to run with it.
> 
> 
> And everyone knows the Steve Gass video must be staged....after all he's a commie trying to destroy the American Dream and apple pie. (Sarcasm noted).
> ...


Completely off topic, but funnily enough apple pie isnt american. Its German :O


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> I kinda agree... but I mean... the blade is kinda hard mounted, not like you can push the blade down into the table.
> 
> wonder where they created a break. Could you implement it on a cabinet saw and would it affect the function/stability on a more powerful saw.


I envision some kind of device that releases the height adjuster and it gets pulled with a spring to the lowered position. At the moment it starts dropping it would already be out of harms way, dropping as you push into it. Unlike the SS where it would have to stop turning before you got too far into the blade. 

They say it resets in less than 5 minutes and you get two charges before it needs replaced. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> It appears the guy trying to develop the whirlwind tech has now moved on to solely trying to sell off the technology. He was for a long time trying to find investors to develop it, his website now says he's looking to sell it to someone else to run with it.
> 
> 
> And everyone knows the Steve Gass video must be staged....after all he's a commie trying to destroy the American Dream and apple pie. (Sarcasm noted).
> ...


Having pursued the American Dream and found it. I would have to say too bad for the guys your age and in this time because guys like Gass and those that operate like he has. Have made the Dream much harder to achieve. 

Having been poor twice in my life I would also say that too has been made worse by those who think by their actions they are helping. Unfortunately the short sightedness of the give it to me generation will never know. 

My money is on Bosch putting it on the market and letting their hard work with a good product do the selling. If the Government then sees the need to make a mandate for the device. That would be the correct procedure. Gass had the cart before the horse.

Bosch has a great idea.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I think it's entertaining some are praising the bosch idea as the next great thing....before ever seeing one in action. 

Which cart is before the horse??


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A must read for all*

This pretty much explains the whole history of the Saw Stop and industry "refusals", pending lawsuits and other informative info:

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/bosch-tools-sawstop-lawsuit/3806/

The Bosch Reaxx table saw is here:
http://homefixated.com/bosch-reaxx-table-saw/

Quoting from the above:
*Bosch REAXX Table Saw – What It Does*

While countless work-hours and likely millions of dollars of R&D went into it, what the REAXX system does is pretty straight forward. The saw detects flesh and rapidly withdraws the saw blade in a way that “reduces the potential of serious user injury.” We saw this demonstrated with what might or might not have been a German wurst, and the wurst was virtually unscathed. From the demonstration we witnessed it appears like it would be very challenging to accidentally cut off a finger on the saw.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So a few things I find interesting. 

1. Those that have complained craftsman and other tool companies have overstated horsepower over the years will be happy to know that bosch is claiming a 4.0 hp motor on the saw 

2. Bosch appears to be happy playing in the contractor jobsite market with this for now, nothing noted about entering new cast iron markets. 

3. The saw Is priced at 1499, the new sawstop jobsite is 1299....so hopes of a price war at least in the short term appear short lived

4. There is a interesting lack of mention about dado capabilities. 

Now I'm all for competition, but blindly jumping for joy I'm not.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Having pursued the American Dream and found it. I would have to say too bad for the guys your age and in this time because guys like Gass and those that operate like he has. Have made the Dream much harder to achieve.
> 
> Having been poor twice in my life I would also say that too has been made worse by those who think by their actions they are helping. Unfortunately the short sightedness of the give it to me generation will never know.
> 
> ...


The sad thing is that gass did have a good idea, as proven by its relative growth in a tough industry. 

I dont support mandatory inclusion, that is silly, but I cant hate the player, I hate the game. 

Especially when, most troubling of all, is that the saw makers, for all of their reasonable concerns, did not even create a saw model with this device as an option... Fine, add $250 to the price, recoup the cost of materials, licensing, whatever. let the consumer decide if he wants seatbelts and airbags atleast... Shameful that not one of them did it, they were not acting in our interest, they were acting in theres; its a coincidence that they happened to look the same. 

And they took 10 years to develop the first alternative... shameful.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I think it's entertaining some are praising the bosch idea as the next great thing....before ever seeing one in action.
> 
> Which cart is before the horse??


Obviously the one the government did not give the go ahead to on the mandate.

But hey bang the drum, someday maybe you'll have a SS that wrinkles those thin kerf blades your so fond of.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> But hey bang the drum, someday maybe you'll have a SS that wrinkles those thin kerf blades your so fond of.
> 
> Al



Hopefully soon!!!

Me and those darn thin kerf blades....if only I was smarter.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> The sad thing is that gass did have a good idea, as proven by its relative growth in a tough industry.
> 
> I dont support mandatory inclusion, that is silly, but I cant hate the player, I hate the game.
> 
> ...


Table saws have gone the way of the box and clothing stores. Which is in direct response to what "we" woodworkers want and asks for. A cheaper saw. Manufactures don't have a market for a cabinet saw with an expensive stop on it. Even Gass was forced to build his own saw if he wanted to see any return on his money. Remember, he lost.

Bosch is showing us where the market is and how to make money on the product. It's the only reason it's coming out. And their costs are less on development because of the techno they brought over from their air bag products. Bet they don't think it's worth competing against Gass on the big saws because they know how much he's making on them. Have you ever seen a thread here on someone pulling the trigger on a Gass driven 3 hp cabinet saw? Not many if at all. Same for Delta or Porermatic. But man we sure do here about the clothing store models. Even the one you can serve cheese and crackers on.

Bosch probably will never build a cabinet saw because there aren't enough buyers. There all at the box store waving a HF coupon.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> . Have you ever seen a thread here on someone pulling the trigger on a Gass driven 3 hp cabinet saw? Not many if at all.
> 
> 
> Al



In 5 minutes of searching.....there's a bunch of owners on here. 



hext10 said:


> Another vote for saw stop. I have the 3hp and its as good as any but has the safety. .





clpead said:


> I posted a "what table saw" question a while back. I am now a proud owner of a 52" contractor sawstop. I love it! Beats the heck out of my shopsmith





thintz said:


> I recently got the SawStop 3HP Pro Cabinet machine





Jafo28 said:


> Made my decision, and picked up my new Sawstop PCS yesterday. Just moved into the new house, and haven't had a chance to put it together yet.





Wizard1500 said:


> I have the Saw Stop contractor saw, and frankly, it is worth every dime.....I got the 36" fence, but they also have a 52".....





GoIrish said:


> I love my Saw Stop. Rock solid, no vibration, cuts well, easy to change from riving knife to blade guard..





SMLWinds said:


> I am looking for a cross cut for my SawStop table saw.!


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Only two, and beating a shopsmith isn't hard.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

mrbc said:


> ....



You said it right the first time......


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

I'll be damned on the day I replace my American made Unisaw for a plastic bucket made it china. 

I think the Bosch technology is great and will add a lot to the woodworking market. Mandating that technology isn't going to help anyone. For those with safety in mind, they'll already have one. And the others would rather stop cutting wood then be forced by the government to buy a saw with this kind of safety feature. Just because someone's making them buy it they'll oppose it for ever.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Hey h,

I thought my Shopsmith was cool when I got it .......... 30 years ago. Still use it, although not exclusively. I did a lot of stuff on it back then. Still love the horizontal drill. But, if I had it to do over I would buy each tool separately. You might be right, at least partially.

HJ

Nostalgic


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

BigJoe16 said:


> I'll be damned on the day I replace my American made Unisaw for a plastic bucket made it china.
> 
> I think the Bosch technology is great and will add a lot to the woodworking market. Mandating that technology isn't going to help anyone. For those with safety in mind, they'll already have one. And the others would rather stop cutting wood then be forced by the government to buy a saw with this kind of safety feature. Just because someone's making them buy it they'll oppose it for ever.


Well said. Would be tough to even buy a new Unisaw.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Only two, and beating a shopsmith isn't hard.


Any cut over 12" on that saw was an accident in the making.

Al


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Any cut over 12" on that saw was an accident in the making.
> 
> Al


IMHO, even the worst of all job site saws are better than a shopsmith table saw.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The shopsmith is intended for folks that don't have a lot of space. I'm sure if a person was cleaver enough they could rig a catch table for the shopsmith to do a lot of work.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> The shopsmith is intended for folks that don't have a lot of space. I'm sure if a person was cleaver enough they could rig a catch table for the shopsmith to do a lot of work.


Except that they don't have the space for the catch table. 

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Except that they don't have the space for the catch table.
> 
> Al


I've got a little Ryobi table saw I take to job sites. By itself it's incredibly cumbersome but I made a catch table to sit on saw horses and I can cut a 4x8 with it now.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

If you can set up a catch table you don't need a shopsmith. It's not like they are portable or cheap.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> If you can set up a catch table you don't need a shopsmith. It's not like they are portable or cheap.


I never have been able to understand the price of a shopsmith however folks that have them seem to really like them. Back in the 1980's I bought a shopsmith bandsaw but I bought a separate base for it. It's been a good saw but I wouldn't consider it extraordinary.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I would hate to have to spend 20 minutes to change tools. I have to share a cord between 6 tools, and two dust collection hoses between 8 tools. It drives me nuts having to spend a few seconds to hook up each tool. The shopsmith tools are about the same as cheap bench top tools.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If one Shop Smith is good then ....*



hwebb99 said:


> I would hate to have to spend 20 minutes to change tools. I have to share a cord between 6 tools, and two dust collection hoses between 8 tools. It drives me nuts having to spend a few seconds to hook up each tool.


If you had 4 or 5 Shop Smiths there would be zero changeover time.... just sayin' 

I've never owned one and refused the one offered for free from a neighbor. I never could understand a "tiltlng table" table saw, but bevels aren't a big piece of my operation. Now that I have a table saw the size of a small deck, I don't think a 16" square top would work for me. :no:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't own a single shopsmith. Why would anybody own a whole shopsmith for every tool? The shop smiths are huge, they don't work any better then a bench top tool, and they are expensive.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

They do a few things no other tools are particularly good at....horizontal boring for one. I think it's a tool that had popularity when people were into the one tool for everything craze....like radial arm saws replacing everything else...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*did you miss my sarcasm?*



hwebb99 said:


> I don't own a single shopsmith. Why would anybody own a whole shopsmith for every tool? The shop smiths are huge, they don't work any better then a bench top tool, and they are expensive.


I was just kiddin' of course when I "suggested" getting 4 or 5. I refused a free one... just sayin' :yes:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I hauled a free shopsmith back to the owner.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

When I was a kid. My buddies dad had one. We were instructed to NOT use it because it was dangerous. 

Al


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm just setting my Shopsmith back up. the horizontal drill is great for doweling joints, and the belt sander or bandsaw can be left on the machine and be connected in seconds. Just loosen and slide the body over. I didn't say it was the greatest thing in the world, but it has it uses. Since I have it, might as well use the parts that best suit my needs. Sure not gonna get rid of it.

HJ

Can never have too many things with motors


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

honesttjohn said:


> I'm just setting my Shopsmith back up. the horizontal drill is great for doweling joints, and the belt sander or bandsaw can be left on the machine and be connected in seconds. Just loosen and slide the body over. I didn't say it was the greatest thing in the world, but it has it uses. Since I have it, might as well use the parts that best suit my needs. Sure not gonna get rid of it.
> 
> HJ
> 
> Can never have too many things with motors


Hey, at least you own one and have used it so know what is possible to do with it. Lots of good work done on them when there wasn't much choice out there to get reasonable priced power tools.


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

Looks like SawStop has already tapped into the jobsite saw market....

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Yes....that started shipping last month I think. It's also 200 bucks cheaper than the bosch.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Cheaper saw until you have to buy a blade and cartridge. But you get what you pay for.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

If it's a legitimate brake stop, sawstop will replace the cartridge free of charge so you'd be out a blade. Bosch needs a new cartridge every two stops, so there's a cost associated as well. 

And no one yet knows what boschs cartridges will cost.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

apparently bosch saws do not sell anywhere near their "msrp", so the price they gave may not be the street price.

MSRP on the 4100 is $1200 bucks, but I dont think you could manage to pay more than $600 for it. 

Either way, itll sell well Im sure, but I wait for this tech to land into a nice/affordable cabinet saw. That will probably push me to replace the delta hybrid.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Where'd you see the msrp on the 4100 at 1200??? Cause if it's Amazon they don't report the Prices as anywhere near accurate.


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