# Glue... How long does it hold up?



## Jesse Blair (Oct 9, 2016)

Was just thinking about it last night in bed. How long do you suppose modern wood glues will hold up in a project before deterioration and glue failure occurs? 30 years? 50 years? More? I'm sure conditions and stress on a joint plays a factor in how long the joints and glue hold up.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

long long time.

I've got pieces I made in the 60's with Elmer's 'whatever-it-was-then' glue - all still stuck together.


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## Jesse Blair (Oct 9, 2016)

I have a dresser that I repaired recently that was probably from the 60's or 70's, and every drawer dovetail were falling apart because the glue had given up. I currently have a project I'm making, and there is a fairly low stress joint with a huge contact patch (10"x10" effectively) that I'm considering just using glue, as I don't think pegs/dowels will look very good. Just worried about down the road, if the glue fails, it will fall apart. But doweling the joints will only hold it together, but it will turn into a creaking, rocking mess without glue... I would be happy if the glue itself would hold up for 100 years, if that's realistic.


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## J_L (Apr 22, 2014)

Glue seems to last only a few minutes in the dishwasher....

A 10x10 area...glue it up. Even if you dowel it, if the glue fails it will still need repaired.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

I too have furniture I made in the 60's and it is holding up fine, most was Titebond but it was the yellow glue like all others back then

I am building new cherry cabinets for out house, and using Titebond III, I am amazed at it's strength, for some stupid reason when I was cutting the face frames for the cabinets I decided to make a couple 2 inches shorter then the others I was trying to take them apart, it was end grain to edge grain, and had only been screwed together 30-45 minutes, the edge grain wood failed before the end grain, I figured I could just pop them apart, but it wouldn't let go, even used a chisel to try to separate, still broke the edge grain


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Glues are capable of holding up for 75 or more years. 
Moisture can ruin a glued joint in less than a year. 
It's all about how the furniture is protected from moisture. 
Well cared for Antique furniture can be found glued with old hide glues and still in good shape. 
The quality of the joint can make a big difference on how long a glued joint last. 
On a sloppy joint, not so long.


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## Jesse Blair (Oct 9, 2016)

J L said:


> Glue seems to last only a few minutes in the dishwasher....
> 
> A 10x10 area...glue it up. Even if you dowel it, if the glue fails it will still need repaired.


True enough... It's repair either way. I guess if anything, not having dowels would make it easier for whoever needs to repair it way down the road.



Catpower said:


> I too have furniture I made in the 60's and it is holding up fine, most was Titebond but it was the yellow glue like all others back then
> 
> I am building new cherry cabinets for out house, and using Titebond III, I am amazed at it's strength, for some stupid reason when I was cutting the face frames for the cabinets I decided to make a couple 2 inches shorter then the others I was trying to take them apart, it was end grain to edge grain, and had only been screwed together 30-45 minutes, the edge grain wood failed before the end grain, I figured I could just pop them apart, but it wouldn't let go, even used a chisel to try to separate, still broke the edge grain


"They don't make _____ like they used to..." comes to mind though. A lot of things these days don't hold up like things of the past. But, I guess here we are talking about chemistry and technology vs. mechanical devices.

Glue alone, it is.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I have furniture in my house that is more than 100 years old and the glue joints are fine. I would like to think the modern adhesives are better so I would have to say if you ever have a glue joint fail on a project in your lifetime you did something wrong.


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## Jesse Blair (Oct 9, 2016)

I guess most of the glue joints I've seen fail have been on mass produced furniture. I guess not as much care goes into those pieces (throw it together and out the door). I feel better now. Hopefully this piece will still being serving people well, long after I'm gone.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Some time in 1988, I built a simple work bench with three drawers. A couple of years ago, I dismantled it. I wanted to save the wood from the drawers if possible. I had built the drawers with simple butt joints, Elmers glue and finishing nails.

I had to beat the drawers apart. The glue held fast and pulled the wood apart. That was about 25 years.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

For me, until about 5 minutes before I'm supposed to deliver the finished project

There's a reason I'm so big on draw bored m&t joints


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

in a mass production environment a "fast setting" glue is often employed . . . clamped for 2-3 minutes and BINGO all done.

or not . . .

in the 70's the "pressure" cured glues became popular - also a 'or not' thing
also stuff like electron beam curing - that didn't last long because of the costs.

basically anything from a mass production place is suspect; time is money, not quality.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

It depends on glue and location, really. In a wet location, glue will fail sooner rather than later.

Here's my take. If I'm building furniture I intend to be useable for a century or more, then I think it should be possible to dismantle it for repairs if someone damages it. PVA glue (standard wood glue) isn't reversible. Hide glue is. I've seen a lot of tests done, and they all show that for both types, the glue joint is generally stronger than the wood around it, so which you use really doesn't make a difference, structurally. On the other hand, hide glue will fail really, really fast in a hot, humid environment, whereas a water-resistant modern glue will probably hold up better than the wood will.

So: If it's going somewhere wet (outside, in a bathroom, whatever) I use Titebond III. It's easy, it's essentially waterproof, and it's readily available. For a boat, I'd probably use epoxy, since that's even better. For any other furniture, I go with hide glue. Small panel glue-ups are easier, it's easier to clean up, and if I ever have to replace a component, I can probably reverse the glue and take it apart.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Pick the adhesive which is chemically designed for the job, to begin with. 
Like the one that glues your rearview mirror to the glass windshield of your car in _all_ temperatures.
Hide glues are still the adhesives of choice for fine musical instruments of the violin family. 
I have a pro luthier friend who uses 4 diferent kinds. She opens $60,000 instruments,
makes the repair and buttons them up again.
I'm guessing that I have 5 or 6 different adhesives in my shop. CA, epoxy, silicone, acrylic, etc.


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## ThimbleStudios (Mar 25, 2021)

Toolman50 said:


> Glues are capable of holding up for 75 or more years.
> Moisture can ruin a glued joint in less than a year.
> It's all about how the furniture is protected from moisture.
> Well cared for Antique furniture can be found glued with old hide glues and still in good shape.
> ...


For me, the question is not so much about the workmanship or the longevity of the object made using the glue, but this question is about the glue itself: how long will it hold itself together? If you simply paint it on top a board and leave it be, in a dry stable environment, how long before the PVA begins to crack, or peel, or disintegrate? Do the bonds let go? Does it shrink and begin to crack over time? How does the glue physically showing signs of age? This is a question which plagues me!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ThimbleStudios said:


> For me, the question is not so much about the workmanship or the longevity of the object made using the glue, but this question is about the glue itself: how long will it hold itself together? If you simply paint it on top a board and leave it be, in a dry stable environment, how long before the PVA begins to crack, or peel, or disintegrate? Do the bonds let go? Does it shrink and begin to crack over time? How does the glue physically showing signs of age? This is a question which plagues me!


That would largely depend on the wood and the environment. Some wood resists being glued and a humid enviroment is hard on adhesives. I have some projects that were glued together 50 years ago while I have some other things that have come apart in only a year. It's more that the glue softens with humidity and if the wood warps and pulls at the joint it can pull itself apart. It's not something you can see, just one day the joint starts opening up. .


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## ThimbleStudios (Mar 25, 2021)

Steve Neul said:


> It's more that the glue softens with humidity and if the wood warps and pulls at the joint it can pull itself apart. It's not something you can see, just one day the joint starts opening up. .


Thanks, maybe I should elaborate a little on the type of info I want to learn. I have been wood working for over 40 years, (age ten with my father) and I am a trained traditional artist, oil painting. I have been using wood glue to seal my panels (1/4" birch ply) and adhere my canvas overtop, followed by a coat of glue again. This is not traditional I know, most conservationists pull their hair out when I tell them this, but I have not seen any adverse effects on either my artwork or the panels. I have works as old as 35 years to date, that are completely fine. What I fear is that in time, the PVA will begin to harden and crack no matter how stable the environment, the PVA will ultimately begin to warp, crack, and shed itself off. I just want to know what type of timeframe I am looking at if the piece is kept under optimal conditions, 150 years, 200, or less? Nobody knows how long before the chemical bonds let go of themselves. I think I need a chemical engineer to answer this question.


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

Thimble - aren't there specific Gesso type sealers and adhesives manufactured just for projects like this ?
if you are wanting something to last 200 years, I would not use wood glue.
I'm sure there are "art forums" on the internet that you could view for more accurate information.
(it would be nice to see some of your projects that are 35 years old).


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I made several blanket chests in the early 80's. I gave my mom a walnut blanket chest. It's now roughly 35 years old.. Mom passed away recently and the sister took it to her house. Sister said it's holding up just fine..It might makes its way back to me..

I think glue hold up just fine if done correctly..


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

ThimbleStudios said:


> For me, the question is not so much about the workmanship or the longevity of the object made using the glue, but this question is about the glue itself: how long will it hold itself together? If you simply paint it on top a board and leave it be, in a dry stable environment, how long before the PVA begins to crack, or peel, or disintegrate? Do the bonds let go? Does it shrink and begin to crack over time? How does the glue physically showing signs of age? This is a question which plagues me!


I saw your post last night and didn't know how to respond to it. The problem that I had with it was that you are asking about the long term properties of cured PVA wood glue when it is used in a way for which it was not intended. 

There is nothing wrong with asking the question, but I doubt you will find a suitable answer based in fact and science, because few people have tested it that way.

PVA wood glue is made to strongly bind two pieces of wood together. Those pieces of wood should be smooth and perfectly matched. The thinner the gap, the stronger the joint. The greater the gap, the weaker the joint - PVA glue is not strong for filling gaps. Your open air use of PVA is like an infinitely large gap. What happens there over the long term is anybody's guess.

PVA needs the wood to do its strong bond magic. The strength and durability of a PVA wood joint depends on how well it is absorbed into the two wood surfaces and how closely you can bring those PVA-absorbed wood surfaces together. It isn't the PVA itself that creates the strength of the joint. A hypothetical PVA-only to PVA-only joint is weak. It is the chemical and physical changes that take place between the wood and the absorbed PVA that do it. Bringing those PVA-absorbed wood pieces together allows the wood pieces to form the strong physical bonds in the joint.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

If you have been woodworking a long time you have the personal fact.

Projects built in the early days before air conditioning were subject to common moisture.

This dovetail piece has no glue and holds together strick on joinery.. it's around 16 years old. Still holding strong.. it only has glue on the top and sides. But holds its structure with dovetails


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

I think that a more accurate hypothesis would be:

if you smear PVA glue on any material (NOT between two pieces of wood), just on the surface only of plastic, glass, wood, cloth, artist's canvas, etc. how long would it last before it started to crack and peel away ???
the only viable answer to this is if someone applied Elmer's Glue to the surface only of an item 50 years ago, how is it holding up today ??
(Bob Ross never used no wood glue on his canvases)


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

This is probably not the best forum to ask. 

What I do know is glue selection and performance can have more to do with what's being glued than the glue itself, such as veneer, cloth, felt, etc. And also the environment the painting will live in. We know PVA type glues do not do well exposed to moisture. And, since canvases weren't handled this way 200 years ago, we have no references.

I agree with John, there are specific products used for this I know in the boating realm which should apply to what you're doing.

My question is why are you doing it? They've been stretching canvas on frames for 100's of years.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Stretch the canvas ( Dad did 2 dozen at a time). Prime the canvas with gesso. Paint over that.
A popular technique over the past couple of centuries.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

To make a long story short...........If it is furniture you are questioning, modern glues will outlive you and your children at the least


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ThimbleStudios said:


> Thanks, maybe I should elaborate a little on the type of info I want to learn. I have been wood working for over 40 years, (age ten with my father) and I am a trained traditional artist, oil painting. I have been using wood glue to seal my panels (1/4" birch ply) and adhere my canvas overtop, followed by a coat of glue again. This is not traditional I know, most conservationists pull their hair out when I tell them this, but I have not seen any adverse effects on either my artwork or the panels. I have works as old as 35 years to date, that are completely fine. What I fear is that in time, the PVA will begin to harden and crack no matter how stable the environment, the PVA will ultimately begin to warp, crack, and shed itself off. I just want to know what type of timeframe I am looking at if the piece is kept under optimal conditions, 150 years, 200, or less? Nobody knows how long before the chemical bonds let go of themselves. I think I need a chemical engineer to answer this question.


I think glue dries too hard for that purpose. Quite often you see glue that is puddled on the surface of wood which has cracked when it fully dries. I think you would be better off using a common primer to seal the wood for your paint. After all it's what it was designed for. 

In order to give some time frame we would have to have experience with using glue as a sealer. Since I've never heard of anyone doing that I don't know who's experience you could draw from.


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## Ron Anderson (Jul 28, 2021)

Why has no one mentioned Weldwood Plastic resin glue, it's kind of a pain to work with, because it's a powder that must mixed with water to activate, and it has something like an 18 month shelf life even sealed in the can, however this can be considered an archival century kind of glue. It needs a very fine mated joint that you will clamp for over a day. The very fine joint will help hide the dark brown color and your tools will need to be immediatly cleaned or they will retain glue smears forever.The end result is an extreamly strong joint that is completly unaffected with water or moisture. This glue joint will last longer than you will.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Ron Anderson said:


> Why has no one mentioned Weldwood Plastic resin glue, it's kind of a pain to work with, because it's a powder that must mixed with water to activate, and it has something like an 18 month shelf life even sealed in the can, however this can be considered an archival century kind of glue. It needs a very fine mated joint that you will clamp for over a day. The very fine joint will help hide the dark brown color and your tools will need to be immediatly cleaned or they will retain glue smears forever.The end result is an extreamly strong joint that is completly unaffected with water or moisture. This glue joint will last longer than you will.


The resin glue is very nearly waterproof. I worked for a company that used it to glue up tiller handles for sailboats. I think what most people have against it is you can't put it in a bottle like you can with PVA glue. It would harden even in a airtight container.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

There are several reasons why resin glue is not used much in ww’ing. 

I put in the same category as hide glue in respect to it requires mixing and has a long open time. But it is a MAJOR pain to clean up, takes a long time to cure, and the dark glue line can be objectionable, no matter how tight the joint. Also at least when I use it, it seems to stick to _everything _and get _everywhere. _If it gets on the bottoms of your shoes it’s aggravating!

I only use it for bent laminations and splining door stiles b/c it dries hard and stiff I get less spring back even than epoxy,

OTOH, wood glue is the most popular b/c they clean up easily, and cure enough in a few hours to unclamp, and have no prep, which makes them the most popular. Shelf life is not an issue if you buy smaller bottle sizes and keep them fresh. That said, I never throw old glue away. I’ve had gallons of TB glue over 3 years old that still works fine just add a little water first to thin it.

Not all resin glues are waterproof. Weldwood is labeled for interior use.

Just about any glue joint will last longer than we will, unless it’s in a flood.

I’m not meaning to contradict you, I just seem to have very different experiences with it.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Old hide glues and modern synthetics all seem to respond to environment. Humidity, big temperature changes and trace gas composition (smog, etc).

I use several adhesives in wood carving, mainly to "stick things together." One is invisible in yellow cedar glue-ups.
Another is hidden in joints.

I used white PVA(?) to stick some 2" abalone shell eyes into a pair of 36" Raven carvings in western red cedar.
I know they stand out in the Vancouver BC weather. Quite well cracked like totem poles. 
I have never remembered to ask if the eyes fell out.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I spent many years restoring antiques and used hide glue on them. I think one point that seems to be missing here is the condition of the joint. Many hide glue 'failures' are not necessarily the fault of the glue, but in the shrinking of the wood used in the joint. The joint fails quite often in antiques because of shrinkage of the wood in the joint. Even at that, some of these pieces lasted over a century before failing.
I would think that in this age of good commercial furniture grade lumber, kiln dried 6-8% M.C. and kept in modern climate controlled (heated and cooled) homes, a well made joint with modern adhesives (TiteBond for example) could last a few centuries.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Don't know how long, but I had to saw a drawer box apart yesterday because I made it about an inch too long. (anyone sensing a theme in my measurements lately?)
Anyway, I cut the back of the drawer just before the back panel hoping to knock it apart since it was all end grain against side grain in both directions..no such luck.. My "heavy" hammer wouldn't budge it without splintering it apart so I just made the drawer an extra half inch shorter.
Titebond 3 is incrediburgably strong stuff and I have absolutely zero doubt the rest of the joints in the drawer will out last the entire cabinet unless someone decides to either burn the drawer or saw it apart first..


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is an article I just received in my e-mail from Laguna Tools. This is slightly off subject of how long glue lasts, but rather which glue for what. Understanding the Differences Between Each Glue


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> The resin glue is very nearly waterproof. I worked for a company that used it to glue up tiller handles for sailboats. I think what most people have against it is you can't put it in a bottle like you can with PVA glue. It would harden even in a airtight container.


Kind of like fools who think they can mix up some epoxy paint and save the rest for later..
Many a spray gun has gone to the trash can for such foolishness..I have a friend who was fired for ruining the bosses new spray gun with epoxy..


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I use a lot of Elmers Glue All, especially on light colored woods.

TonyB brings up a good point. There was no climate control. Wood was moving all over the place with seasonal changes. It’s amazing to me how the stuff even stayed together. That said, I’ve also seen a lot of antiques built with zero regard for wood movement - and not a crack in a panel anywhere.

But it wasn’t always shrinkage, it was loose joinery filled with hide glue. Tenons were commonly pinned, or draw bored with no glue at all. They certainly did not fret over a suction fit.

We like to think all the old craftsmen were masters, but drawers and carcasses and backs and bottoms were usually relegated to the apprentices. I’m not saying they didn’t care, it was a matter of expediency. They had to get the piece out to eat. Any of us would be fired immediately for fretting over dovetail gaps!

We've stayed in quite a few B&B’s in Savannah and Charleston, my wife laughs at me b/c the first thing I do isn’t unpacking, it’s pulling drawers out and looking underneath tables. BTW there are a lot of pocket holes under there, tops screwed right to an apron. 

The masters spend their time on the facade - the veneering, carving, moukdings, cockbeading, etc..

The more I do this, the less I fret over things unseen. How many of you sand the bottoms of your tabletops and drawers? C’mon, fess up!


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

If it can't be seen, I dont mess with it.


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## kiwi_outdoors (Jan 15, 2020)

It depends on the glue - and think about this - the glue used in plywood, oriented strand board, glue-laminated beams, etc - when these are used in structural applications, truss joists (wood chords with finger jointed butt joints) had better keep holding up.

Let along the timber structural members in new mid-rises - which are now legal for timber construction in some parts of USA.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

allpurpose said:


> Don't know how long, but I had to saw a drawer box apart yesterday because I made it about an inch too long. (anyone sensing a theme in my measurements lately?)
> Anyway, I cut the back of the drawer just before the back panel hoping to knock it apart since it was all end grain against side grain in both directions..no such luck.. My "heavy" hammer wouldn't budge it without splintering it apart so I just made the drawer an extra half inch shorter.
> Titebond 3 is incrediburgably strong stuff and I have absolutely zero doubt the rest of the joints in the drawer will out last the entire cabinet unless someone decides to either burn the drawer or saw it apart first..


I only use titebond 3 when it's exterior. Why woodworkers use it indoors it really confuses me.


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## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> I only use titebond 3 when it's exterior. Why woodworkers use it indoors it really confuses me.


What is wrong with TB III for interior use?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

What's wrong with 1 or 2?

Any woodworker can use what they want. It only has to make sense to themselves. Just dont try and sell me on it...

I used #1 for cabinetry for 30 years. I used a combination of #1, #2 and #3 depending on the furniture and it use...


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## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

I use glue frequently but in small amounts so my per year volume is low. I prefer one glue that can do as much as possible. Once in awhile I also use TB Thick & Quick.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I have #1, #2 and #3 here at the shop. I use what is needed depending on the project. I'm not going to make my job harder by using #3 where it's not needed. Glue is a cheap item...


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## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> I'm not going to make my job harder by using #3 where it's not needed.


What is harder about TB III? Yes it is more expensive, and in the volume that you have used it not justified for interior furniture etc.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Bob Bengal said:


> What is wrong with TB III for interior use?


Nothing, people just forget that hobby guys don't need to have a fully stocked cabinet with every form of glue under the sun


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

That's why it's a hobby/ professional forum..


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Rebelwork said:


> I only use titebond 3 when it's exterior. Why woodworkers use it indoors it really confuses me.


I used Titebond III indoors because I didn't want to keep two or three types of wood glue.

When the one Titebond III needed replacing, I bought a two-pack of Titebond I and Titebond III because it was on sale. Both of them will go bad before I can use them up. If I had bought a single bottle of Titebond III, I might have used it up.

Since I have Titebond I and Titebond III right now, I choose the glue that is most appropriate, based on:

Working time - Titebond III has longer open and working times.
Glue color - Yeah, if all your joints are perfect you shouldn't see it, but sometimes you do.
Appropriateness to task - Choose Titebond III for exterior uses, as was pointed out.
What I don't worry about is glue strength. They all offer more strength than I need.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It doesn't matter to me if to used gorilla glue for everything. There your projects. If you want to deal with the clean up that's on you.. time will always have an impact on my projects. I can find plenty of $10 items in a shop that were wasted..

I'm done fishing for the day and have time to talk about it if needed.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I've settled on 3 just because a good deal of what I make for sale generally is outside or is generally in areas prone to water more than others such as kitchens and bathrooms. I have plenty of both, but I usually just reach for III ..and it seems to last a bit longer in the bottle for some reason I don't quite understand..


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## Ron Anderson (Jul 28, 2021)

I have found in my very long life that there are two kinds of constructors, one is building items primarily for others and these people are dependent on making their income from these projects. This causes a problem with quality (not enough time spent to do it right) or attitude (built only good enough to satisfy typical capitalist buyers or boss) and also minimum components used whether it's the adhesive type or the best pricey choice quality woods. The other builder only cares about quality because time and cost have no bearing. It doesn't matter when it gets done, just that it's right. Perfection is paramount and even the undersides of drawers get sanded smooth, because there is an honor to ones self when a job is done correctly.


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