# Carriage Doors



## gaviaimmer (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm looking for information on carriage door construction. The doors need to be about 7' tall and 9' wide (for the pair). My interest is more in the structural and materials area. I have considered making them using a traditional 2 stile and 3 rail frame form out of Cedar over LVL or out of solid Western Red Cedar. Any design/jointery information would be appreciated.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Most of the Carriage HOUSE OR GARAGE Doors that I have seen have multiply stiles below the window. The three rail part seems to be normal.

What is "Cedar over LVL?" Not familiar with LVL.

If you are going to finish them natural then Cedar should be very good. If you are going to paint then any good construction grade lumber would be OK.

It really depends upon just in what environment you are going to use the doors. Will they be on your shop, somebodies carriage house, a garage or what?

George


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## gaviaimmer (Dec 6, 2007)

LVL - Laminated Veneer Lumber - lightweight laminated material used for headers and light beams in construction

The doors are for my shop and will be varnished or possibly sealed with epoxy and then varnished. I'm curious about the best type of joint to use, single or double tenon perhaps, what depth and dimension tenon would be best. Weather or not a 8" wide tenon needs to be made as multiple narrower tenons - if solid wood is used. Whether or not to use recesses lags instead of tenons. Whether or not to use epoxy for joints due to weather exposure or would this allow too much creep over time. Should I use a embedded turnbuckle for extra support of the hanging corner.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm really big on composite construction. 5" or 6" LVL frames built about 2 feet high by the door width, tightly encasing solid foam cores, will give you plenty of sag resistance plus light weight. I see the joints as being simple full-width open slot mortises. And Tightbond III is hard to beat for this kind of gluing. Skin it for added rigidity, then add the decorative surface styles and rails.

I'll try to work up a drawing of what I mean a little later.

It's later... Here's the idea. Of course, for simplicity, the short pieces I drew could more easily (and stronger) be made of one long piece, simply dadoed 5" every two feet. (I was just on a drawing jag !! And I thought it would look better "exploded" that way.) :yes::blink: For the life of me, I just couldn't figure out a way to make the needed continuous dadoed piece look right in that exploded view.

Obviously, the top panel could be foam like the rest, or framed across for any kind of windows you might want. And since none of the facing is structural, any design backing sheet, styles, or rails desired could be affixed... and changed if it suited your whim a year later. The basic doors beneath would remain solid and unchanged.


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

I built them 3 years ago? Still holding up just fine. And I have the answer for how to make the open and close automatically too. 










I need to get a new photo now that everything is painted on the garage.

http://www.kudzupatch.com/woodshop/gdoors/index.shtml


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## gaviaimmer (Dec 6, 2007)

Very nice - and very similar to what I would like to construct. The only difference may be that my doors are on the eve side of a wood shop with a sloped ceiling so the very nice opener would not work for me. It looked like you did your windows in pieces rather 1 piece of glass with a grill. How did you decide to go that route? What type of climate do you live in? I ask because one of the reasons for going with a heavy veneer over LVL is that it gives me about a 2" thickness and an opportunity to use an insulated core in the non-glass field. I live in Michigan. How did you handle where the doors come together? I was thinking of mating rabets or some type of backstop piece mounted on one of the two doors. These will only be opened from the inside - and then manually.

I also found the painters tape layout very helpful. It was tough finding a wall of the shop to do this on but it really helped settle some dimension questions I was working with. Where did you get your hardware? Thanks for the web site info. The doors look great.


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

gaviaimmer said:


> Very nice - and very similar to what I would like to construct. The only difference may be that my doors are on the eve side of a wood shop with a sloped ceiling so the very nice opener would not work for me. It looked like you did your windows in pieces rather 1 piece of glass with a grill. How did you decide to go that route? What type of climate do you live in? I ask because one of the reasons for going with a heavy veneer over LVL is that it gives me about a 2" thickness and an opportunity to use an insulated core in the non-glass field. I live in Michigan. How did you handle where the doors come together? I was thinking of mating rabets or some type of backstop piece mounted on one of the two doors. These will only be opened from the inside - and then manually.
> 
> I also found the painters tape layout very helpful. It was tough finding a wall of the shop to do this on but it really helped settle some dimension questions I was working with. Where did you get your hardware? Thanks for the web site info. The doors look great.



Not sure why an opener wouldn't work? All that would get wet would be the arms.

As for the glass it was just to keep the stiles nice and large and simplicity. It could be one big sheet but it would have to be thicker and heavier. And it would cost more to replace when the mower tosses a stone through it. Never really considered anything other than individual pieces honestly.

I am sure LVL will work and being in the Great White North insulation is a consideration. But that is going to make one heavy door too. Mine are ... I am guessing but 35-40 lbs apiece? I carried them around from the shop by myself and installed them. You could use 2" think cypress or cedar and save a lot of weight. 

Mine are on the garage and there was no issue with insulation of the gap where they meet. The stop against a stop at the top and I just made a couple of blocks with an ellipse sanded on them and attached that to the bottom of the doors. That keeps them even when they close. I thought about adding a strip to one door but that wouldn't help if they warped and there was the issue of the them closing a the right time and not hanging on the lip with openers.

As for hardware, the hinges are just standard gate hinges. My doors are so light I didn't need anything heavy duty for them.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Kudzu said:


> Not sure why an opener wouldn't work? All that would get wet would be the arms.
> 
> As for the glass it was just to keep the stiles nice and large and simplicity. It could be one big sheet but it would have to be thicker and heavier. And it would cost more to replace when the mower tosses a stone through it. Never really considered anything other than individual pieces honestly.
> 
> ...


Silly guys! We have to eventually move beyond our old dinosaur thinking.

For equal strength, compared to conventional lumber, LVL's are far lighter. (I've read, 50%, although that might be a bit optimistic.) And they can even be built as a hollow box, far stronger than lumber can... saving even more weight.

The "composite" example I drew... That's nothing but a couple of pounds of hard, stiff foam in that entire blue area... that's the total for both doors!

Composite construction also allows you to use just a thin, glued-on (if you want) lightweight skin, opposed to a thick one for insulation purposes as you mentioned doing. You know of much that is better for insulation than foam?

C'mon, Guys, it's the 21st Century. :no: We gotta keep up.

*CLICK HERE* for some interesting reading on new material that is even more advanced than LVL's. It's good reading... follow it all the way through. :thumbsup:


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

Willie T said:


> C'mon, Guys, it's the 21st Century. :no: We gotta keep up.


Why?? 

My doors have 6 pieces of lumber each (minus widow strips) weight 35+/- lbs each. The have held up fine now for 3+ years. Don't see how your going to improve on that. :yes:


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Good to see a traditional woodworking man. No nail guns, none of that new ready-made glue in a plastic bottle, and who the heck needs fancy tools like a joiner or a router? And a power miter saw. Gramps got along fine without them. :yes::icon_smile: :smile:

That's why. We'd be lost already if we didn't at least keep up _*some*_.


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

What ever you say.....:huh:


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## gaviaimmer (Dec 6, 2007)

Kudzu - thanks for the ideas. Your doors look great.


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## Saxmanrios (Oct 2, 2015)

*Doors*

I'm just a beginning woodworker and am about to begin converting my garage into a mancave-ish woodshop. The 1st thing I have to do in order to start the conversion is remove the tracks for my garage door. In order to do that, I have to replace the doors. I'm not about to plop down the ridiculous amount of mula that these companies are asking for. So I'm going to attempt to build them myself. I'm most interested in Willie T.'s advice to use a half-lap joint to join the stiles and rails. I'd love to use mortise & tenon joints, but I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet. Since I'm familiar with a table saw, I think the half-lap joints are the way to go. I'll be using all 2x6 stiles and rails with a 2x8 for the bottom rail. I was wondering what you all suggest using as a skin. I was thinking something like 11/32 plywood. I'd like to have the inside finished out as well. Do you all think two sheets of the 11/32 plywood would cause sagging? The opening is 7' tall x 9' wide and will be made into two swing out doors. Just as Willie T. suggested, I'll clad my doors with decorative moldings and caulk, prime and paint it all. Any feedback you all (or anyone) can provide is GREATLY, GREATLY appreciated!!!!! Thanks!


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Saxmanrios said:


> I'm just a beginning woodworker and am about to begin converting my garage into a mancave-ish woodshop. The 1st thing I have to do in order to start the conversion is remove the tracks for my garage door. In order to do that, I have to replace the doors. I'm not about to plop down the ridiculous amount of mula that these companies are asking for. So I'm going to attempt to build them myself. I'm most interested in Willie T.'s advice to use a half-lap joint to join the stiles and rails. I'd love to use mortise & tenon joints, but I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet. Since I'm familiar with a table saw, I think the half-lap joints are the way to go. I'll be using all 2x6 stiles and rails with a 2x8 for the bottom rail. I was wondering what you all suggest using as a skin. I was thinking something like 11/32 plywood. I'd like to have the inside finished out as well. Do you all think two sheets of the 11/32 plywood would cause sagging? The opening is 7' tall x 9' wide and will be made into two swing out doors. Just as Willie T. suggested, I'll clad my doors with decorative moldings and caulk, prime and paint it all. Any feedback you all (or anyone) can provide is GREATLY, GREATLY appreciated!!!!! Thanks!


Personally, I'd use one of the hundreds of different "textured" thin plastic laminate sheets you can buy almost anywhere. Just apply it with Contact Cement as you would a cabinet. (Make sure your Cement is suitable for foam applications, and won't tend to melt the foam. Some can do that.)

One advantage to the plastic sheets is that they come in colors, and you may not have to paint it..... much like vinyl siding and fascia.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Saxmanrios said:


> I'm just a beginning woodworker and am about to begin converting my garage into a mancave-ish woodshop. The 1st thing I have to do in order to start the conversion is remove the tracks for my garage door.
> 
> In order to do that, I have to replace the doors. I'm not about to plop down the ridiculous amount of mula that these companies are asking for. So I'm going to attempt to build them myself. I'm most interested in Willie T.'s advice to use a half-lap joint to join the stiles and rails. I'd love to use mortise & tenon joints, but I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet.
> 
> ...


I think that what you are proposing will be way to heavy. Even for a split door. I would look for lighter materials.

George


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## Saxmanrios (Oct 2, 2015)

Willie T., I was thinking about using sheets of bead board. I'm going to paint whatever I put on the door. It will get several coats of primer as well as several coats of the final paint color. I'm just trying to keep everything nice and sealed in one envelope.

GeorgeC, any suggestions on how to improve my door? I was going to start with pine (even though Willie T. suggested LVL). Again, I'm too new to be called a novice so I'll take any advice I can get!


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