# Table Saw Recommendations Requested...



## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

hi all,

i currently have a job site Ryobi 10" table saw. great little saw that i've used for a couple homeowner projects; however, i'd like to try some real woodworking, not just cutting 2x4's and the occasional 1x oak board. :smile: i recently purchased some 5/4 Hard Maple and 6/4 Walnut to make butcher blocks for Christmas gifts. my little Ryobi struggled to rip a 4' Maple board and left burn marks along the edge, even with a new ripping blade. :icon_sad: 

as stated above, i'd like to start some real woodworking, building projects, furniture, maybe cabinets. so i'm looking to upgrade from my portable, job site saw to something 'a bit nicer'  

my father has a 10" Rigid Contractors saw which works great. 1.5 HP i believe and it was able to rip my Maple and Walnut without any problems. i've also been fortunate enough to use the top of the line Saw Stop table saw in a table saw class i took at Woodcraft. awesome piece of equipment , but a little out of my price range unfortunately. 

before i limit myself $$$wise, i'd like to know the pros/cons of the various types of table saws: Contractors, Hybrid, Cabinet. i've used a couple Contractor style saws and one (awesome) Cabinet saw. 
i understand the mass of the Cabinet saws is a big plus, not to mention the added HP, but i'm not quite convinced that i should jump in quite that deep being a woodworking n00b for the most part. but i also don't want to make a choice i'll regret for such an important purchase shopwise.

my shop is currently my garage, so i'm pretty tight on space. the garage floor is also pretty uneven (cracked, buckled), so moving machinery around will be rather difficult, but i won't have much choice.
projects i would like to work on range from butcher blocks to cabinets and pretty much anything in between. i'd really like to get into woodworking so to speak, and get quite excited by reading some of the posts here in the forum. :icon_smile: now i just need to get a couple tools, some good wood, oh, and maybe a project or two...

:thumbup1:


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## rob.hough (Jul 27, 2007)

I got a great deal on my saw through Craigslist. I would search that on a regular basis. Lots of great deals to be found there.

I found my current saw for under $200 and have been very happy with it. I put a nice blade it on it this week and it cuts like a dream now. Now if I could find a removable splitter that would work on my saw, I'd be set!


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

aclose said:


> ...before i limit myself $$$wise, i'd like to know the pros/cons of the various types of table saws: Contractors, Hybrid, Cabinet. i've used a couple Contractor style saws and one (awesome) Cabinet saw. i understand the mass of the Cabinet saws is a big plus, not to mention the added HP, but i'm not quite convinced that i should jump in quite that deep being a woodworking n00b for the most part. but i also don't want to make a choice i'll regret for such an important purchase shopwise. my shop is currently my garage, so i'm pretty tight on space.


I like your approach. Once you understand the differences between the basic categories, the decision will be alot easier and more informed to suit your needs. 

Contractor saws and hybrids have much in common, and a hybrid is essentially an updated contractor saw with the benefit of having the motor mounted inside the cabinet. They have similar power, power requirements, table size, price, duty ratings, etc. Fence and wing options are about the same between both types. The original contractor saws were designed close to 60 years ago with an external motor intended for easy removal to make them more transportable to jobsites....a 250# portable.  With the invention of the true portable jobsite saw, the contractor saw has primarily been relegated to use in home shops as a stationary saw. The benefit of the outboard motor is a liability as stationary saw and poses several issues....they take up additional space at the back of the saw, they require openings to the enclosure which make dust collection problematic, they require a longer drive belt which decreases power transfer and increases vibration, and perhaps most importantly they create leverage against the trunnion carriage because of the way they're cantilevered off the back, which in turn poses more difficulty holding alignment....especially if the motor hits something while being tilted. 

Hybrids address most of the issues with the traditional contractor saw design. The motor is tucked inside and out of the way, which offers a smaller footprint, better DC, shorter drive belt, less leverage on the carriage, usually more mass, and no "lifting" hazard. Hybrids offer many of the advantages of a full cabinet saw, but with a lower duty rating, less power, and will run on 110v cirucits. Some even offer cabinet mounted trunnions which are easier to align. There are several advantages and literally no downside to this design relative to a contractor saw in most cases.

An industrial grade cabinet saw trumps them all. Smaller footprint, better DC, massive underpinnings, big motor, etc. The downside is typically a higher price tag and higher electrical power requirements. If you've got 220v and a budget of at least $1k, this is the best route IMO. If $1k is too steep, a good used cabinet saw is a good option. If you don't have 220v, or can't find a good used cabinet saw, a hybrid is the next logical step IMO. 

- The Grizzly 1023SL is on sale for $895/$989 shipped - full 3hp industrial grade cabinet saw that'll suit all of your cutting needs for a lifetime or more. Usually considered the "King of value" for full industrial cabinet saws, though their related Shop Fox brand has good offerings too. Grizzly also has a 2hp hybrid...the G0478 for $725/$819 shipped. Check the links and look at the pics for the differences under the hood.

- The new Jet ProShop (708480 or 708482k) are looking pretty impressive to me...very nicely thought out design, and priced in the $600-$700 range. They also have a more entry level 708100 for $400-$500. Both feature a one-piece cast blade shroud as part of the carriage...the Griz G0478 has a similar design. Jet also has a "Supersaw", but I see no advantages to that design over their newer offerings, unless you get a killer price break. 

- The new Craftmsan 22114/22124 and Steel City 35601/35606/35610/35670 offer similar hybrids with the benefit of cabinet mounted trunnions. Orion is owned by Steel City and makes both saws...this is not the often maligned "crapsman" line, but are very nice saws with an excellent track record and a large following that includes me. They range in price on sale from ~ $550 to > $1k. 

- General International 50-220, Sunhill Machinery, and Woodtek basically offer the same hybrid design in different colors and accessories. All have a one piece cast blade shroud similar to the Jet and Grizzly, but these features a dual drive stage system said to increase torque (can't comment on that, but the saws are well made).

There are also the Delta 35-715/716/717, DeWalt DW746, Hitachi C10FL. 

Most of these companies offer excellent cabinet saws as well as hybrids and contractor saws. Which to get becomes a matter of preference and is your call. Performance boils down to good alignment and blade selection....I'd plan to spend $40-$100 on a good blade (or two). There's not a huge difference between brands of the same class once setup properly. All are capable of excellent performance that should suit your needs for a long time....you should be able to cut 3" without major struggle. All can be placed on a mobile base, some even include one. The retail situations, features, warranties, and current deals very alot and will undoubtedly influence your choice. Keep in mind that a couple hundred dollars price difference over the life of the saw won't mean alot in the long haul. Don't be afraid to go with your gut...the one you like best will likely make you happiest. Good luck and please give us an update!

Here are some pics to help shed some light:
Steel City cabinet saw trunnions:








Craftsman/Steel City hybrid trunnions: 








Rear view of a contractor saw motor:








View of the Ridgid trunnions without the motor:


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## Ken Johnson (Nov 8, 2007)

aclose,

before you dump money into a new tablesaw you may want to try a better blade. I recommend the 40 tooth blade by Ridge Carbide. You won't believe the difference. If you buy it and still don't get the level of performance from your tablesaw that's ok. You'll still want a good blade on any new saw you buy. I have never used the stock blade on any tablesaw I have purchased. They give you a crappy blade to reduce their costs. If you do go to buy a new tablesaw I would recommend the Ridgid Contractors saw. It is a great piece of equipment with two cast iron extension wings, a great fence and a 30" rip capacity. I think Home Depot is offering 12 months same as cash right now too!!!! I love using other peoples money!


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

rob.hough said:


> I got a great deal on my saw through Craigslist. I would search that on a regular basis. Lots of great deals to be found there.


Rob, i had searched the forums before posting and followed your saga :smile: i did look at Craigslist in my area and found a 10" Clausing Tablesaw available, but not much else. never heard of this brand but i'm guessing it's solid since it was made old skool. :smile:

Knotscott, thanks for the insight. i looks like the Hybrid is the way to go if i'm to stay on a 'budget' :smile: but a lower end Cabinet saw is still very tempting. i'll keep researching...

Ken, the blade on my saw is a newer blade, not the blade that came with the saw. two problems i had: the table is quite small and working with larger stock is clumsy. being a small table there is no room to use feather boards or other hold downs for assistance. i know they aren't required to be a good woodsmith, but using them in the table saw class made me appreciate how much easier they make working with your stock. the other problem was the power of the saw. i'm not sure what the motor is rated off the top of my head, but it noticeably strained when i attempted to rip a 5/4 thick piece of hard Maple. i was just trying to clean the edge off and wasn't experiencing any pinching or even cutting deeply into the wood.
the 10" Ryobi is a great little job site saw for working with 2x4's and 1x stock if you have the right accessories (outfeed, assistant, etc.), but it's lacking in the woodworkers dept. 

i read the recent FineWoodworking Tool Test on 10" Cabinet saws available at the SawStop website as a PDF. Gotta love the SawStop  I'll have to look into the Grizzly. i'm a bit more interested in the PowerMatic PM2000 since it has a real riving knife, although it's twice as expensive as the Grizzly. i've also seen good reviews/comments on some of the Steel City saws, although none were tested in this article.

still researching and excepting suggestions, comments, recommendations.

thanks
andy


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## mikew13 (Nov 22, 2007)

Go after the Clausing, excellent piece of machinery! You won't regret it!


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*still researching...*

well, i see that Grizzly has a 2008 10" contractor saw listed on their site with a true riving knife; but none of their other saws have been updated yet. probably just trying to sell off last years models. not too bad for under $900.

SawStop too now has a 10" contractor saw, although it isn't posted on their site. the brochure i have lists the following features:
SawStop award winning blade breaking technology
Improved dust collection system
True European style riving knife
Low profile blade guard
Cast iron table top with powder coated steel extension wings
1-3/4 hp motor

Optional:
Heavy duty mobile base
Professional T-Glide fence system
36" or 52" extension table
Out-feed table

Estimated preliminary retail price starting from $1499.00. 

a bit more than i wanted to pay for a contractors saw, especially when there are a couple cabinet saws that should have riving knives soon just outside that price range. that blade brake is awfully convincing when watching the videos on their site though.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

My understand of that new Grizzly "contractor saw" is that it's really what most consider a hybrid b/c the motor is enclosed...many advantages to that. :thumbsup:


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## rob.hough (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow, that Grizzly looks nice.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

Knottscott, where did you get those picts of the inside of the Griz? i didn't see that on their site... maybe i didn't look hard enough.

yeah, right now the Griz is in the front running. i'm really leaning towards a hybrid over the standard contractor saw. i've also looked at the Craftsman 24214 (?), similar Steel City, Rigid, General International, ShopFox, and a couple others. 
i'm still waiting for everyone to list their 2008 models though since more of them should have a riving knife. 
and depending on cost, i may step up to one of the lower end cabinet saws by Griz or one of the others instead...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

aclose said:


> Knottscott, where did you get those picts of the inside of the Griz? i didn't see that on their site... maybe i didn't look hard enough.
> 
> yeah, right now the Griz is in the front running. i'm really leaning towards a hybrid over the standard contractor saw. i've also looked at the Craftsman 24214 (?), similar Steel City, Rigid, General International, ShopFox, and a couple others.
> i'm still waiting for everyone to list their 2008 models though since more of them should have a riving knife.
> and depending on cost, i may step up to one of the lower end cabinet saws by Griz or one of the others instead...


...Look just below the main pic on their website.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

knotscott - great helpful info and explanations of the various style saws. The whole thread is excellent and thanks to all who contirbuted to it. 

I am gonna 5 star this thread so newbies will hopefully notice it and come get some good, unbiased, accurate information about basic table saw options. 

aclose let us know what you get, and please give it a write-up in the Tool Review section after you have used it enough to know what you do and don't like about it.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> aclose let us know what you get, and please give it a write-up in the Tool Review section after you have used it enough to know what you do and don't like about it.



that's the plan TT :thumbsup:
i'm starting to compile my research info on a spreadsheet. i'll post that here as well...


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## End Grain (Nov 16, 2007)

If space is a major consideration and you find that you do have to move it around a bit to accomodate other pieces of shop equipment, you may want to look at the portable contractor saws, i.e. DeWalt, Hitachi, Porter Cable, Ridgid, Bosch, Makita, etc. They're 10" and have fairly generous-sized tables, some even have pull-out feed extensions. Granted, not as nice, not as stable and with smaller capacity but they may just be enough for the projects you're looking to undertake. I agree that if you can, buy a terrific blade for whatever saw you decide to buy.


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## sawbuk (Jan 9, 2008)

- "The Grizzly 1023SL is on sale for $895/$989 shipped - full 3hp industrial grade cabinet saw that'll suit all of your cutting needs for a lifetime or more. '

knottscott, where did you fin this price. when i look at this saw it is $995, $1089 shipped.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

sawbuk said:


> - "The Grizzly 1023SL is on sale for $895/$989 shipped - full 3hp industrial grade cabinet saw that'll suit all of your cutting needs for a lifetime or more. '
> 
> knottscott, where did you fin this price. when i look at this saw it is $995, $1089 shipped.


...Sale price ended 12/31/07.


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## dusty2 (Jan 16, 2008)

Clausing is an excelent saw. I researched and bought an 8" Atlas-Clausing made in 1948 to use as my secondary table saw (for on site work) DeWalt 10" table saws made in the 1960's were manufactured by Clausing (which I also own) are very substantial and as true today as it was new. If you go to "Old Woodworking Machines" online you can get the full scoop.


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## Paul K (Jan 14, 2008)

Knotscott did a great job of answering your question. I agree with what he said, and I might add a point or two. We all are seduced by "power" and we probaby question what is necessary and what is not. 
Depends on what you are cutting. If you cut hardwoods, like maple, and are ripping 1 1/2" or bigger stock, you probably will really appreciate 3 hp over the 1 1/2 hp. I don't think any of us really need 5 hp, unless you are using 12" or larger blades, and are cutting big hard stock. Another point, is the fence you are going to get. Since the advent of the Beisemeyer fence a couple of decades ago, fences have gotten MUCH better. There did used to be good fences, on industrial machines, but not on commercial machines. Even the old unisaw, IMO, had a fence that was annoying to use. The Bies is now not the only good fence. The unifence is good, excalibur, and others. But what you get on cabinet saw and some others, is a great fence that makes cutting accurately much easier. If you find an old used saw, without a good fence, that is an easy fix. Dusty mentions OWWM, a great site, and you can always find old saw information there if you want


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*still looking...*

well, i'm still looking for a saw. the riving knife is still the main feature/requirement, so that limits my choices. i've put together a spreadsheet of most of the saws i've looked at. i'm now leaning more towards a full 3HP Cabinet saw rather than the contractor or hybrid even though they are more expensive. i'm still on the fence regarding the Grizzly. i've read some great reviews online and in magazines about it. and have read some great reviews from owners of Grizzly tablesaws. but not being able to 'see' one before purchasing bothers me. How the Jet Deluxe Xacta is currently in the lead and has a considerable price cut and rebate going on right now. $1599 w/ $100 rebate and two 31" Jet Parallel Clamps. it's worth it just for the clamps, right? :thumbsup: this deal is available until the end of April '08.

so here's a list of most of the saws i've checked out:
View attachment TableSaws.zip


hopefully this will help someone else get started on their research, although the pricing may be out of date :smile:

i'm still hoping to get some 'hands on' with the Jet, Steel City, & Grizzly if i can find someone in the area with one. i'll post back, and if i actually purchase something i'll write it up in the reviews section.


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## huntsman22 (Feb 2, 2008)

aclose, I was looking to replace an older contractor saw a few years ago. I went with the dewalt 746. It has to be able to go to the job once in a while. And this logo on the saw still matters to me. Outweighing even the riving knife........ Don


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

Don, that label matters to me too. unfortunately it's getting harder and harder to find as we ship our manufacturing off to countries with cheaper labor. :thumbdown: at least i'll know that everything produced by my saw will be made in the US of A. :thumbsup:

the riving knife isn't really an option. i have a great deal of respect for fast spinning, sharp toothed metal; but i don't want to take chances if i can help it. safety features that don't inhibit work are important; at least to me and my family they are.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

aclose said:


> hi all,
> 
> i currently have a job site Ryobi 10" table saw. great little saw that i've used for a couple homeowner projects; however, i'd like to try some real woodworking, not just cutting 2x4's and the occasional 1x oak board. :smile: i recently purchased some 5/4 Hard Maple and 6/4 Walnut to make butcher blocks for Christmas gifts. my little Ryobi struggled to rip a 4' Maple board and left burn marks along the edge, even with a new ripping blade. :icon_sad:
> 
> ...


I am curious. And it is just me trying to get an understanding here. But perhaps there is something wrong with your specific saw, or model of saw. 

I have heard no so great things about the Ryobi BTS20R about it being underpowered. This is the model that looks like a benchtop unit with a fold away base and wheels. (as well as a miter slot).









The bigger brother to this saw is the BTS21, is the model I grabbed, and while I don't have access to Maple right now, It rips 8 foot oak 4x4s down to 2x4s like no tomorrow.








I would SERIOUSLY suspect if you have the BTS21, that there is something mechanically wrong with your saw. (If it is new enough, get it fixed under warranty). But if it is the 20R, then yeah, you need a bigger saw for the heavier duty stuff...

Now, having said that, do I expect my jobs ite saw to be able to keep up with a big Grizzly, or even a Craftsman cabinet makers saw on thicker stuff? No. not even close. The posters above have some great posts about the different types of saws. But I would expect it to be on par with a comparable level Ridgid such as the TS2400LS. Maybe not as nice, but you get the idea...








I actually looked around, read reviews, and talked with guys that owned both and used them for the kinds of work I am interested in. The MAJOR plus I saw to the Ridgid was the traditional T-slot miter groove instead of the sliding miter table. BUT, once you figure out how to use the miter table (read the owners manual) it appears to be able to do everything I need it to... And on my budget, that extra $200.00 was enough to buy me a nice compound miter saw and stand.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

db, yep, my current saw looks nearly identical to the BTS20R you posted. i'm not sure of my model, but i'd bet that's it. like i said, it's a great saw for what it was built to do. i originally picked up this saw while finishing my basement and needed to rip some 1x pine boards for shelves. it was great while i was doing construction grade work, not that i'm knocking construction quality work in any way. but tolerances are a little more fine on furniture. 
so now that my construction type projects are done around the house i'd like to start building projects that require just a bit more skill, finesse and quality finish. i would like a saw with a larger table, a much better fence system, miter slots that work with standard aids (miter gauges, featherboards, etc), and of course, more power. 
since i bought this saw on a whim/immediate need, i didn't really look at what my future needs would be. this saw was highly rated compared to mobile job site saws in its class at the time.
so the new saw will definitely be an upgrade. :smile:


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## Paul K (Jan 14, 2008)

Andrew, I commend you for looking for a saw with a riving knive, I agree that they alwasy should be offered. The problem is many users strip them off, so the manufacturers delete them as an added cost. Also many riving knives are not convenient to use (take off when not needed or wanted). I have found that there are other good options. 
Besides feather boards which also prevent kickback, there are lots of devices like "roller buddies" or some such thing, can't remember the name exactly. These prevent kickback very nicely, and have an added advantage in that they tend to keep the work against the fence. For a professional, probably not every going to use them, but for a person working by themselves in their own shop, they really actually are pretty good. And they can be applied very nicely to a bies fence and OK to a Uni.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

well, i my list is no down to three:

1. Steel City 
2. Jet Deluxe Xacta
3. Laguna Platinum

the Laguna was actually at the top of my list because all their tools 'used to be' made either in North America or Europe. i found out today that their Platinum line is all made in Taiwan. :thumbdown: Jet's Xacta saws are also made in Taiwan, and SC makes their tools in China. i wanted by buy homemade tools. and my wife gave me the go ahead for the Laguna, even though it was the most expensive of the bunch, because we originally thought it was made in N.A. oh well...

the good news is that Steel City said their TS with Riving Knife will be available for purchase in early March. so that's climbed back to the top of my list.


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## Capt Crutch (Jan 21, 2008)

IMHO, most woodworkers don't need to spend the $$$$ that a Unisaw-level TS costs. There are many contractor's style saws that will out-cut the average woodworker on his or her _best_ day by a long shot. 

When I was a kid, my Dad ran a custom cabinetmaking business for many years with nothing more than a _right_-tilting contractor's-style Craftsman TS (akin to modern-day Ridgids) and he built some truly beautiful stuff.

Have you looked at the Powermatic 64A contractor's saw? It's an awful lot of machine for less than half the price of a Unisaw-style rig. Personally, I'd be hard-pressed not to spend the $800 saved on something else...


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## ramon68 (Jul 20, 2007)

I spoke to Don Dedo at Laguna last month and he told me that the Platinum saws are made in China, not Taiwan. I would rather save my money for the $2950 European Laguna. 
Incidently, only on the more expensive of the Platinum saws does the riving knife move up and down with the blade.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

ramon, i spoke with Don as well. :smile: very nice guy 
he may have said China, i may have been thinking Taiwan since i had talked to a Jet dealer more recently. i know he said that the Platinum series was made somewhere in Asia. 
yeah, i was a bit bummed to find that only the more expensive model had the riving knife. and they only had the option to purchase that saw with the 50" rails and table extension. that won't work in my shop. :no: 
so the Steel City is back up at the top with the Jet at a close second. i hope the gentleman that i talked to at SC was correct in saying that their TS with riving knife will be available early Mar. i guess we see in a couple weeks :thumbsup:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I have been "evolving" my thinking about ROC made and foreign made to an extent. None of us "Buy American" types, ,I'm in that group, ever hesitate to buy German, Swiss, Italian, and even Canadian made machinery. Those four countries and a few other i.e. Belgium are long-trusted manufacturers by woodworkers. We think of China, Taiwan, and in the 50s and 60s Japan (but no longer of course) as crappy and shoddy. And this is mostly true. But you look at it close enough the quality IS getting higher and higher by the Chinese. Their stuff is going to be world class in short order you wait and see. They just introduced the J-10 fighter jet that is supposedly on par with most of the world fighters in the world excpet maybe the JSF and Raptor. They had alot of outside engenerring help etc. but the Chinese have their sights set on being the #1 power economically, manufacturing, militarily and politically. 

They were drilling for oil 1000 years ago! Their history of invention and technology far surpasses that of virtually every other country. i am a USA guy all the way. But there is no denying facts, and the fact is that China is going to kick our ass in every area unless we take back this country from the traiotrs wha are allowing us to slide into 3rd world status. 

What point was I going to make? I forgot. Something about table saws or jet engines or sumptin. :wallbash:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Sorry I should get my facts straight before I go blabbing off at the mouth. I said the Chinese were drilling fpor oil 1000 years agoi but I was wrong. I was operating from memory of a show I show I saw a few months back on TLC or maybe THC where the history of Chinese inventions were being chronologued. Man you could not believe what all their culkture is responsible for. It was mind boggling. Anyhow after I made the post I thought I better check my facts so I just googled "Chinese drilled for oil 1000 years ago" and *this* reprint of a Nov 12, 1922 NY Times article popped up. It was 2000 years ago! But if you scroll down to the 3rd cite from wikipedia, they quote Herodotus as saying the Chinese drilled for oil over *4000* years ago! :laughing:


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

no doubt. please don't take my post for knocking the Chinese in any way. they are definitely on their way to becoming the defacto manufacturing giant on Earth.  and their quality will improve, especially when the rest of the world starts demanding quality. they've already implemented all kinds of government regulations on quality control and will continue to do so.
and the big tool manufacturers that do their manufacturing over seas are still regulating their products to some extent. 
i was just hoping to buy American. alas, these days we can pretty much only buy 'designed in the USA', if we're lucky. :thumbdown:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Oh I wasn't taking up for them at all. I just was letting alot of the oldtimers on the board know (i have always been staunchly pro American and still am) that even an old dog can change his views. A little.  

I still say the most bang for the buck to be had is to buy an older 40s, 50s, and some 60s era American made behemoths, put a super duper after market fence on and you cannot go wrong. It's more trouble waiting and looking and hunting but worth it in the end, unless of course you don't need that much saw and most woodworkers don't. Still, if you can spend the same or less money on one why not!? :thumbsup:


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## huntsman22 (Feb 2, 2008)

Why not? To me, it's not about saving a few bucks. I will gladly pay a premium to get stuff made here. Sometimes, a fella gets stuck by price or features, or just lack of an American made alternative. I will gladly chance cutting off all my fingers, to stick with my choice......:laughing: 
If only just to keep from payin' some chinamen to make a riving knife for me (can ya hear the patriotic music in the background?) :thumbsup: 


Besides that, the dewalt is as much saw as I need.......<wink>



You obviously don't want to get me going on the illegal aliens taking over my trade, either...... Don


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Hey Don we are on the same page. "Why not?" I meant why not buy an older American saw even if you don't need that much saw, since you can usually get one for the same or less money than a more expensive foreign job. Like a 3HP Grizzly new is around what $800 or so? You can often pick up an old used American made for that or alot less. 

I'm with you on the riving knife too. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure they are nice but it would get in my way when I wanted to have a real close call. :laughing:


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Ken Johnson said:


> aclose,
> 
> before you dump money into a new tablesaw you may want to try a better blade. I recommend the 40 tooth blade by Ridge Carbide. You won't believe the difference. If you buy it and still don't get the level of performance from your tablesaw that's ok. You'll still want a good blade on any new saw you buy. I have never used the stock blade on any tablesaw I have purchased. They give you a crappy blade to reduce their costs.


Ken,

good catch, and I don't think too many folks caught on to your post. I know I didn't until tonight. 

The OEM blades on most saws I have owned have been 100% certifiable junk. My Ryobi included. My friends saws including a Delta, two Dewalts, and a Ridgid all had garbage blades on them from the factory that were barely any good to cut yellow pine 2x4s. You will want to purchase and install a proper blade for the saw. 

Freud and Irwin both make excellent blades. Pick and chose the right blade for your application.

I am eyeballing the Freud LU86R Thin Kerf General Purpose blade, or the Irwin 10x80t & 10x24t Thin kerf blade combo pack.


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## huntsman22 (Feb 2, 2008)

Yup, A ridge blade will gaurantee-adly(cowboy term) turn a sows-ear saw into a silk-purse saw............ Other good blades only come close. Sorry for the second place finish, Forrest........:wallbash:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Not trying to be persnikity here huntsman, but the brand of blade Ken Johnson is referring to is a Ridge and not a Ridgid as you have typed. 

I'm sure you know the difference and it's a faux pas only, but someone especially a newbie to woodworking could read it and come away thinking all they have to do is order a Ridgid blade and viola! That would not be a good thing. :no: 

Here is the Ridge website that manufactuers the blade to which Ken is referring.


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## Capt Crutch (Jan 21, 2008)

ramon68 said:


> $2950 European Laguna


Wow, for three grand, I think I'd just buy a house full of furniture and be done with it.

Honestly, there isn't that much _TO_ a table saw. For $3000, it had better come with a 14k gold blade...


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Captain I sure do not want to start a argument about this because you are right. A very basic table saw can be used to make furniture that looks every bit s good as another craftsman can make on a Laguna or other expensive saw because the most important factor in making fine furniture is the maker not the saw. To a degree of course you can't make straight cuts on a worn out POJ but I DO agree with you.

Where I differ is preference. The experience of using a heavy, high quality, accurate, powerful saw cannot be described. There is most certainly a difference. It's *sort* of like the analogy of a volkswagon and a BMW. They will both get you there, ,but if you can afford the Beamer the ride is much more enjoyable.

Man i don't knock ANYONE for not wanting to spend $3000 on a saw when they can get a craftsman or other inexpensive saw (as long as it is in good order) and make beautifulk stuff just the same. I just have always preached to buy as much saw (or tool) as you can afford. But alot of people misinterpret the part "...as you can afford...".

Just because you might have $7000 in the bank doesn't mean you can afford a $3000 saw. No one knows their budget expect them. So in the end, if you were to go back and read my posts concerning TS especially (but don't do it I am a boring read!), for the most part that's why I always try and remind TS shoppers to not forget _Old American Steel_. You can look in local Sunday papers, craiglist, ebay (gotta be careful but the deals can be founbd with patience) and especially government auctions. State gov't auctions are where the deals are to obecause there are alot of smaller - less indexed ones.

Old 3 phase equipment is cheap and the convertors are to nowadays. It is more troubke to put it all together, and takes more time, but you will end up with combo that just cannot be beaten pound for pound and dollar for dollar. Of course, it is not for everyone because we (i am guilty of this as much as anyone in some areas) WANT IT NOW!

Anyhow, I am not trying to make it a diatribe here i just think there more ways to skin a guiny and TSs ought to be given alot of thougt. I'm glad to see aclose taking his time. 

But your statement that there isn't much to a TS can't be argued with and I ain't. It's just that there are those who have experienced the "used BMWs" and there is no going back once you do for most.


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## Capt Crutch (Jan 21, 2008)

Maybe you're right Texas...and maybe I'm just a bit _jealous_ of someone who can throw down $3000 on a TS.

On the other hand, I have used Unisaws and some other high-dollar saws, and I just can't believe _any_ saw is worth 4X as much as my plain old $750 Powermatic 64A contractor's saw...which passes the "nickel test" straight out of the box, and without aftermarket belts or anything else.

To each their own, I guess...but given the choice between plunking down $3000 on a saw and then not being able to afford to feed it...or buying a $750 saw and then being able to afford some wood and glue and maybe even some screws, well -- $2,250 buys a lot of wood.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Capt Crutch said:


> ...but given the choice between plunking down $3000 on a saw *and then not being able to afford to feed it...*





TexasTimbers said:


> . . . But alot of people misinterpret the part "...as you can afford...".


See what I mean? :laughing: The main premise of my philosophy on the TS is ya gotta bea able to afford it. If you can't afford wood after you buy it then you couldn't afford it! :no:​ 
It's not about being right or wrong either - I am in the same boat as you. I don't have an umlimited budget. I got my 1947 heavy duty old American on the cheap. The main point I am making, and doing a terrible job is, most people think they have to shell out big bucks to get a seriously heavy duty TS and they don't. 95% of shoppers forget about those old 40s and 50s era saws that have no equal in todays "new" saw market without spending - like you say - $3000+ 

Alot simply don't want one either which is cool, but they are missing out on an opportunity to in many cases, like mine, also own a piece of history.​


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*99% sure i'll be going with...*

well, i'm 99% i'm gonna go with the Steel City 3HP 10" TS w/ 30" Industrial Rip-Fence :thumbsup: i'm just waiting for them to announce the new model that comes with a riving knife. the person i talked to on the phone about a month ago said "Early March". hopefully they haven't slipped too much from that date.

the SC beat out the Jet mainly due to pricing. i couldn't really find any info on the Jet that lead me to believe that it was really worth ~$700 more than the SC for what i was getting. aside from name/reputation and the cool drawer that it has in the base 
i also looked at Grizzly again (G1023 series) since they are fairly comparatively priced. but i haven't been able to put hands on a Grizzly as i have with the SC. 
so even though i haven't actually ordered it or laid out any cash yet, i'm quite excited and looking forward to receiving it. :smile:
i'll make sure to post picts of the unboxing and setup and review my experience with SC as a company and their TS once i receive it.
:thumbsup:


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## David K (Oct 9, 2007)

_An industrial grade cabinet saw trumps them all...If you've got 220v and a budget of at least $1k, this is the best route_ 

It sounds as if the 220v is more important than I thought it was. I've been thinking about SawStop and Powermatic 2000 for a home shop. I got by for 20y using Shopsmith. I won't buy cheap tools, but I don't throw money away, either. What kinds of work will make me wish I'd chosen 220v?


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

I think I may have found a flaw in some of the Hybrids that have table mounted trunions, if they are in a fully inclosed base cabinet, how do you get to the trunions if they ever get out of alignment ? One other thing I'm not sure about on all the Hybrids is, if the motor ever fails, can you just buy a motor off the shelf almost anywhere like you can for a Contractors saw ? Or if the belt ever fails on you, are you going to be able to find a belt as easily as you can for a Contractors saw ? Just a couple questions that I think that should be considered. Can you tell I like my older Made In The USA Delta Contractors saw ? :smile:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Woodchuck1957 said:


> I think I may have found a flaw in some of the Hybrids that have table mounted trunions, if they are in a fully inclosed base cabinet, how do you get to the trunions if they ever get out of alignment ? One other thing I'm not sure about on all the Hybrids is, if the motor ever fails, can you just buy a motor off the shelf almost anywhere like you can for a Contractors saw ? Or if the belt ever fails on you, are you going to be able to find a belt as easily as you can for a Contractors saw ? Just a couple questions that I think that should be considered. Can you tell I like my older Made In The USA Delta Contractors saw ? :smile:


There's an access door on the side or back to get inside....those with table mounted trunnions are harder to reach than cabinet mounted trunnions, but is typically a one time and done deal with a hybrid. They should be easier to reach than the front trunnion bolts of a contractor saw. Some have motors with standard NEMA 56 frames, like the Delta, Steel City, and Craftsman, some have proprietary motors or a standard mount other than a NEMA 56. Dealers and manufacturers should stock the belts just like with any machine they sell.


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

*Table Saw Recommendations Requested*

In most cases you shouldn't have to losen the front trunion unless things are REALLY out of wack. I would prefer to see them have a door in the back of the cabinet instead of a side door. As far as depending on a local dealer haveing parts on stock nowdays, I wouldn't bet on it, it would probably be a good idea to buy a extra belt just to have one on hand. Many years ago I use to have a Delta Motorized saw that ran on a poly cogged belt. In the winter one day I started up the saw and it was cold enough that it striped the cogs right off the belt rendering the saw usless for a few days till I could get a new belt.


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## Devildog (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi 
I am in the same boat as aclose...
I have a Makita 2703, but am looking to get a bigger unit.
Where I live (thailand) are choices are very limited... the best we have around is Geetech (a.k.a. sunhill?). After that it's chinese names i've never heard of at prices so cheap i have to question quality and safety.
Anyway, does anyone have insights into whether the geetech is any good? Are the miter slots a standard size? is the fence any good, and if not, is it replaceable with decent aftermarket stuff?

The makita is killing me because of its crappy fence and miter gauge (and non-standard, shallow miter slots)... even making my own jig is tricky because the slots are so shallow.

any info/insights would be much appreciated


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Sunhill currently has two saws from Geetech. One is a traditional contractor saw that's similar to the Ridgid...model SM250a. The other is the CT-250T, a hybrid with a full enclosure that's the same basic machine as the GI 50-220, Craftex, and Woodtek hybrids with different fences and bolt-ons. That particular hybrid is well respected....standard miter slots and table depth. The Woodtek was chosen as best hybrid by Popular WWing IIRC....the GI has faired quite well in most reviews too. Craftex is a Canadian brand.









Some of the Chinese saws might be fine...try to find out who else they make saws for.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I used my wife's new Hitachi Hybrid model C10FL this weekend and cut over 300 splines right quick. MUCH faster than I can on my Oliver. This smaller 10" is just much more well suited for tedious operations. 

I'll do a full review on after I use it for a variety of tasks. Here's a tease though - a peek under the hood. 

























It's no Unisaw but it's not a POJ either. i won't spoil the review but bottom line I love the saw - especially for the price. 

Now the amphibian bel0w has nothing to do with the saw, I was just out in the log yard yesterday playing with my new camera. I just barely noticed this changeling because, look how well he blended in. . . .


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

I certainly can't match the info on this thread... wow, wish I had that info when I bought mine. But I got extremely lucky. I got the $700 Craftsman tablesaw for about $350 (sales, gift cards, etc). I would pay $800 for this saw, now that I look back. It's incredible.
Lot's of terrific saws out there... but don't count out Sears. Good luck.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*Update...*

i've finally placed and order and am excitedly awaiting delivery. :thumbsup:

Steel City 10" Cabinet Saw
3HP, 30" Industrial T-Square Fence System
Cast Iron Top with Riving Knife
Model Number: 35675

Details and Specs can be viewed here: http://steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35675

i'll post delivery/unboxing/assembly picts and a review when i receive the saw towards the end of the month (July 2008).


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## Geoguy (Feb 22, 2008)

aclose said:


> i've finally placed and order and am excitedly awaiting delivery. :thumbsup:
> 
> Steel City 10" Cabinet Saw
> 3HP, 30" Industrial T-Square Fence System
> ...


Congrats! I've read great reviews on some of the Steel City saws. This one looks like a great choice!:thumbsup:


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## JohnnyR (Jun 20, 2008)

David K said:


> I got by for 20y using Shopsmith. I won't buy cheap tools, but I don't throw money away, either./quote]
> 
> Me too but the SS is now retiring to "second string" since I bought a General 650R-T50. The SS was slowing me down too much doing repetitive production cuts.
> 
> J.R.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I`ve heard alot of good feedback on Steel City. I have three TSs...A Delta Contractor, A 1938 Craftsman 10" bench with the out rigg motor...and a 1938 Delta Light Industrial with enclosed motor (220v) NICE SAW!! If you buy a used TS be sure to take a dial indicator gauge with you...you can find really good deals if you know what you`re looking for!!! Rick


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Congratulations aclose I think you made a great choice. That saw will do 99.9% of what you will ever need it to do and I bet you'll be happy with it for a long long time. 

Although I haven't owned any SS stuff yet, I know from experience you'll get the best customer service available today. I was shopping for a tool last year and just on a whim called SS with a few questions. A human picked up the phone. It was a nice, intelligent, extremely informed human. With manners but not fake. Down to earth kind of joe like us. He answered all my questions and then some. We talked until *I* finally had to say goodbye to him a couple of times. It was one the owners of the company! This was on a ..... Saturday! I told him if he could find a way to maintain this level of accessibility they would conquer the woodworking power machinery market. He said they had a solemn commitment to maintain that very thing no matter what. We'll see of course but that's more than most other import companies will do. 

And speaking of imports, although I still maintain a buy American/Canadian policy wherever possible, SS is doing things a little different and they are not foreign owned like many import comps. Post is already too long so I'll leave it at that. Plus Nancy Laird rubs elbows with the owners so if you have a problem you can rag on her about it a little. :laughing:

Johnny, don't know what kind of production work you mean, but unless it is ripping 16/4 hardwood day in and day out, I can't see how the SS saw with a 3HP motor couldn't be modified to excel in most production work environments. Sure it is no 5HP 1200 pound cabinet saw but it is not a toy either. Are you ripping thick hardwoods all the time? That's the only thing I can think of where I would want to dedicate a monster saw to that purpose. I do have one of those monsters and love it, but as I found out, it's way too much saw for the smaller applications which comprise 90% of the standard shopwork so I added a smaller 10" saw. 

Not challenging your statement, just wanting to learn something here, what do you mean when you say it was slowing you down?


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## JohnnyR (Jun 20, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> Johnny, don't know what kind of production work you mean, but unless it is ripping 16/4 hardwood day in and day out, I can't see how the SS saw with a 3HP motor couldn't be modified to excel in most production work environments. Sure it is no 5HP 1200 pound cabinet saw but it is not a toy either. Are you ripping thick hardwoods all the time? That's the only thing I can think of where I would want to dedicate a monster saw to that purpose. I do have one of those monsters and love it, but as I found out, it's way too much saw for the smaller applications which comprise 90% of the standard shopwork so I added a smaller 10" saw.
> 
> Not challenging your statement, just wanting to learn something here, what do you mean when you say it was slowing you down?


Just by the nature of the Shopsmith it can be a difficult machine to use when speed is important. The blade does not lift or tilt, the table does. Every time you fire it up it has to be set to the correct operating speed for the operation and run back down to low speed before shutting it off...a very versatile machine with all of the attachments but a PITA to use in a commercial environment and the motor is only 1 1/8hp:no:

J.R.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I think it was Cool Hand Luke that had the famous line 

_ What we have hee-ya . . . is a fail-yuh ta communicate. _

We're discussing the Steel City table saw here, not Shop Smith.


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## Tdragon (Jul 6, 2008)

Congrats on the purchase! And thanks for the thread. I'll be looking into purchasing a table saw soon and this has given me some things to think about.


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*It's finally here!*

well, the saw is finally here. unfortunately it arrived at Woodcraft on a Mon, so i had to wait the rest of the week knowing that it was just 15 minutes away :smile:
my Dad and i went to pick the saw up yesterday morning. it came in four boxes and was fairly well packed. the actual cabinet came mounted in a steel cage then wrapped in cardboard. the store loaded the big box into the back of the pickup with a people powered forklift. unloading was actually much easier than we had expected. the shipping weight of the saw is advertised as ~500lbs, but that must be the total of all four boxes. to unload the 'big box', we removed the tailgate from the pickup and laid a couple 2x10's down as a ramp. being encased in a steel cage actually made it easy to slide the cabinet to the end of the truck bed and down the ramp. my Dad, Uncle and two brothers were all aiding in some fashion, although i think two of us could have safely managed the unloading. i have a couple photos of the unpacking that i'll post along with my initial review in the review section of the forum, however, i didn't take as many photos as planned because i was busy (and excited) actually doing the unloading and unpacking. :laughing:
i'll detail setup in the review...


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

Initial review of assembly and setup is in the Tool Review section...


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## Benjamin20 (Feb 16, 2009)

*Sawstop!!!*

"i've also been fortunate enough to use the top of the line Saw Stop table saw in a table saw class i took at Woodcraft. awesome piece of equipment , but a little out of my price range unfortunately" 

Hello Andrew. I saw your post here & I if there is ANY way you can buy a sawstop I would DEFINATLEY buy it. even if it means not buying a saw right away but saving up for one. because I know 2 people who are VERY professional & very careful who had a little slip & are now missing parts of there fingers. and it's worth the extra $1000---$1500 for the sawstop. everyone should check out this link that I attatched. I hope this convinces you, if you have any questions about the sawstop you can E-mail me at [email protected]


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-E3mzhvMgrLE/sawstop_in_timewarp/


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## slowlos (Jun 22, 2009)

*sawstop*

I got a sawstop ics 52 inch My shop is 9X16 and that is very small. 
I got this to replace my unisaw after I almost lost my thumb , I was very lucky . that said it is one heavy monster of a saw and if you can stand a penny up it will stay standing when you turn the saw off and on and off and on as many times as you like . also the mobile base is the best I have ever seen , you can swing that 600 plus lbs saw around in any direction easy I love it love it love it ps that riving knife is so cool. I have pictures of it with the router set up if you would like.


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## peerawit (May 22, 2009)

Congratulation with the choice... Don't forget to write a review..:yes:


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Benjamin20;66369Hello Andrew. I saw your post here & I if there is ANY way you can buy a sawstop I would DEFINATLEY buy it. even if it means not buying a saw right away but saving up for one. because I know 2 people who are VERY professional & very careful who had a little slip & are now missing parts of there fingers. and it's worth the extra $1000---$1500 for the sawstop. everyone should check out this link that I attatched. I hope this convinces you said:


> [email protected][/EMAIL]
> 
> 
> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-E3mzhvMgrLE/sawstop_in_timewarp/


Wow, I just don't know what else to say except wow! :thumbsup:


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## jkristia (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm still saving, but one fine day (hopefully this year) I will buy the Saw Stop contractors saw with a 36" fence. 

Jesper


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## drbob1 (Feb 5, 2009)

I recently included a review of table saws by category on my blog. It should help with your decision. 
http://www.woodworkingtipsandtools....-and-soul-of-the-workshop-a-table-saw-review/


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