# Tablesaw burning stock



## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I am very new to woodworking. Just got all my tools. When trying to make tablesaw cuts with my new Craftsman 21833 saw, it seems to be very difficult to push the wood through the blade. It also seems to want to lift the stock (ripping 8/4 maple) as I push it though. I am using a push stick, magnetic featherboard. The riving knife and blade guard are installed.

The cuts I have made have left the wood burned and the burning smell is potent.

The teeth of the blade are pointing down and towards me.

I decided to stop when I noticed this on my first 2 cuts and ask here before I hurt myself. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks!


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

Sounds like your rip fence is not parallel to the blade. Your fence should have an adjustment for this.

Most woodworking machinery will need to be adjusted and fine tuned before use.

With a table saw, you need to make sure your miter gauge slots are parallel to the blade, then adjust your fence parallel.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

Pardon my ignorance...but shouldnt this just cause the cut to be angled?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*two things:*

First, the blade type and quality. Blades for ripping should have no more than 40 teeth, 24 is best, and it should be free of gum and pitch. If it's the blade that came with the saw. it's probably just barely useable for fine accurate cuts in maple. Freud Diablo is one of my favorites, the D1040X if I recall, a thin kerf which takes less HP since it's removing a smaller chip. Amazon.com: Freud D1040X Diablo 10-Inch 40-Tooth ATB General Purpose Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor and PermaShield Coating: Home Improvement

Then the blade, and fence must both be aligned parallel to the miter slots, the standard reference for alignment. It's an involved process, but it must be checked at a minimum, so see if that is another issue with the burning. Measure over to the slot from a marked tooth on the blade both in front and at the rear by rotating the blade front to rear. The measurement should be identical or as close as possible...less than 1/64th difference or .01. Better yet would be .001, :thumbsup:

The fence must also be parallel to the slot and can be adjusted using the adjustment screws.

You were right to stop and ask, before anything bad happened, like a kickback. A higher blade takes less energy and will pull the work downward onto the table. It looks more dangerous without a guard in place but it's actually safer.


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

secutanudu said:


> Pardon my ignorance...but shouldnt this just cause the cut to be angled?


This is going to be difficult for me to explain, but I'll try.

If your fence is not parallel to the blade, then your workpiece will be trying to go across the blade at an angle, therefore binding the wood between the blade and fence. Picture shoving a board into the side of the blade instead of into the teeth, while not as extreme, this is what you're doing when the fence is not parallel.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

What's the most accurate tool to measure the distance between the tooth and the fence?


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

There's a lot of reading material of course. I have this one, and found it very helpful

Working with TableSaws


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

You can get really technical and use a dial indicator mounted to a special holder that sides in the track, or you can use an adjustable combination square. If you're like me and a stickler for accuracy, use the dial indicator.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020574/22720/ALINEIT-Basic-kit.aspx

If not, just take a combination square and put it in the slot up against the blade side. Now adjust the blade to touch one of the teeth at the front of the blade. Now move the square to the rear of the blade against the slot and rotate the blade until the same tooth is touching the blade of the square. If it's tighter or looser, adjust the trunnion according to your saw's manual.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

secutanudu said:


> I am very new to woodworking. Just got all my tools. When trying to make tablesaw cuts with my new Craftsman 21833 saw, it seems to be very difficult to push the wood through the blade. It also seems to want to lift the stock (ripping 8/4 maple) as I push it though. I am using a push stick, magnetic featherboard. The riving knife and blade guard are installed.
> 
> The cuts I have made have left the wood burned and the burning smell is potent.
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew - I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that you skipped the "setup" section of the operator manual. :yes:


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

You know what, i am such a stickler for safety, but this time i think my eagerness got the best of me. You are completely right.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Maple is more prone to burning than some woods. It can also be very hard and tough to cut, so 8/4" maple, especially hard maple can be a tall order for that saw. It's important that the wood is flat and straight. If it's twisted or rocking on the saw, it'll be that much harder to cut. 

As previously mentioned, the alignment is a key factor, as is the blade you use. As Bill mentioned, a good 24T 3/32" thin kerf rip blade is your best bet for that task. Also make sure the riving knife is aligned with the blade.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*ooops?*



Chris86 said:


> .
> *With a table saw, you need to make sure your miter gauge slots are parallel to the blade, then adjust your fence parallel.*


Chris I'm sure you meant to say this in reverse order.....you need to make sure your blade is parallel to the miter slots.....since the slots are not adjustable.:no:

The blade of course is attached to the trunnions which are adjustable, the blade is not.  bill


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

So I guess I'm buying a new blade. Is there any blade that is good for both rips and crosscuts? I am planning to make end grain cutting boards....which means lots of both types of cuts. 

Edit - i see the freud diablo blade listed above is all-purpose. Maybe I'll try thgat one.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That Diablo is a great all purpose blade*

I think I have 3 of them around the shop on various saws. I have the 24 tooth rip on a saw as well. Go full out and get BOTH you won't have to spend more than $75.00....not bad! :thumbsup: bill


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

Definitely take the time to learn and properly set up every tool. I have a 21829 and I have a Diablo (all of mine are the Diablo) 40T blade in there for most cuts, and the 24T does the hardwood rips. I have the 80T in the miter saw. Love these blades, great value.


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Chris I'm sure you meant to say this in reverse order.....you need to make sure your blade is parallel to the miter slots.....since the slots are not adjustable.:no:
> 
> The blade of course is attached to the trunnions which are adjustable, the blade is not.  bill


Either way you put it, things need to be parallel:laughing::shifty:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup!*

you might have some nubie wondering how to adjust the slots....I donno? :laughing: bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

johnnie52 said:


> You can get really technical and use a dial indicator mounted to a special holder that sides in the track, or you can use an adjustable combination square. If you're like me and a stickler for accuracy, use the dial indicator.
> 
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020574/22720/ALINEIT-Basic-kit.aspx
> 
> If not, just take a combination square and put it in the slot up against the blade side. Now adjust the blade to touch one of the teeth at the front of the blade. Now move the square to the rear of the blade against the slot and rotate the blade until the same tooth is touching the blade of the square. If it's tighter or looser, adjust the trunnion according to your saw's manual.


The miter slot is your first reference point. The blade would be the second. With the saw unplugged, run the blade to full height, and do the measuring thing to a marked tooth in the front, and at the rear to the same tooth. Then rotate the blade 1/4 turn so if your first measure was the tooth at 12 and 6 (o'clock), the next tooth would be from 3 and 9 (o'clock). Your third reference measurement is the fence to the miter slot, and if it measures parallel to the miter slot it should be parallel to the blade.

You can use any measuring device that is accurate. You don't need fancy measuring devices that read into the millionth. I've used just a tape measure and achieved good setups. You could use a combo square, or even a common straightedge with adjustable stop. 












 







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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> you might have some nubie wondering how to adjust the slots....I donno? :laughing: bill


I didn't think about that! My bad:laughing:


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

What they said!  All the advice so far has been dead on. One other thing to consider is your feed rate. Don't rush that wood past the blade.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

OK. I am going to ask this question about a subject that has been bothering me for a long time.

Many people recommend that the fence to aligned to the miter slot for a RIPPING OPERATION. Why? The miter slot has nothing to do with ripping. The only time the miter slot comes into play is with a miter guage, some type of sled or some other accessory that used the miter slot. ( I crosscut using a sled. I make sure that the back fence of the sled is 90 degrees to the blade, or whatever angle that I need. The sled is what determines the accurace of the cut. Not the miter slot.)

It is also generally recommended that the blade and fence be parallet. Again I ask why.

Frequently when I am ripping, especially thick stock, I will delibeerately align the fence so that the rear of the blade is just a "hair" farther from the fence then the front. This helps with preventing binding and has absolutely no bearing on the final dimension of the stock being cut. Binding will always occur if the rear of the blade is closer to the fence than the front. This will also cause burning.

The distance between the front of the blade and the fence determines the width of the cut stock.

I will now await the replies telling me where I am wrong.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK I'll give it my best*

Let's say the blade is NOT parallel to the miter slot... IE askew.
And the fence is NOT also, maybe askew the other way.
Now you have a wedge condition between the blade and fence, or a splayed open condition. The wood will bind, smoke, wedge etc when ripping. :thumbdown:

The miter slot of course is not used when ripping, but it's the only "reference" on the table that both the blade and fence can be tuned to. It's also good to have the blade parallel to the slot when cross cutting, so that your miter gauge, when set to 90 degrees, will be square to the blade. It's a good idea to verify that with a known "square" reference tool as well :thumbsup: bill

BTW I've never found it "necessary" to align the fence away at the rear. I've always set mine parallel to the miter slot and blade with no toe out at the rear. Works fine for me, no binding. I also have Biesemeyer and Unisaw fences which are self aligning when locked to the rails, no double measuring....what a joy they are to use!


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Better that things are aligned vs misaligned. The more critical relationship is the fence to blade for ripping, but the miter slot gives a good reference point for both, plus crosscuts will be 90° if the blade is aligned with the miter slot (assuming the miter gauge is set properly). 

Your technique of intentionally skewing the fence "out" by just a hair is better than being toed in, and would still be considered in alignment by most people if done conservatively.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> Let's say the blade is NOT parallel to the miter slot... IE askew.
> And the fence is NOT also, maybe askew the other way.
> Now you have a wedge condition between the blade and fence, or a splayed open condition. The wood will bind, smoke, wedge etc when ripping. :thumbdown:
> 
> ...


You have not said anything here that technically answers my questions or assertions.

Let me ask the question another war. Suppose I have just bought a new saw. The blade, arbor, etc are perfect. However the machine milling the miter slot was off by 2.5 degrees. I align my fence to the blade.
I proceed to rip a number of pieces of lumber. They all come out perfect. How had the error in milling the miter slot had any effect of my job? How will it ever effect any ripping that I do?

Can you do so?

George


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

I suppose if the machine that milled the miter slots was off, then the miter slots are not a good reference point. If your cuts come out perfect, then I wouldn't mess with it.

But generally the idea is to align the blade to the miter slots, then because the blade is now parallel to the slots, you can use the slot to align your fence.

This is what I've done with my saw and it works for me.

I used a friends contractor saw one time to rip down some 2x6's, his fence was angled away from the back of the blade slightly and I found that I ended up with pieces that were slightly curved. I've never had that problem on my saw where the fence is parallel.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

GeorgeC said:


> You have not said anything here that technically answers my questions or assertions.
> 
> Let me ask the question another war. Suppose I have just bought a new saw. The blade, arbor, etc are perfect. However the machine milling the miter slot was off by 2.5 degrees. I align my fence to the blade.
> I proceed to rip a number of pieces of lumber. They all come out perfect. How had the error in milling the miter slot had any effect of my job? How will it ever effect any ripping that I do?
> ...


The miter slot is just a reference. If, when you check the slot to the blade, and there is a surmountable difference, your task then is to see what and why it's off. As for toe out, think of it this way. If the fence is not parallel to the blade, it will not cut the stock parallel. You are right, the front of the blade does the cutting, but the angle of the fence determines the direction of feed. 

To emphasize the offset...that's what a tapering jig does.












 







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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

GeorgeC said:


> ...Suppose I have just bought a new saw. The blade, arbor, etc are perfect. However the machine milling the miter slot was off by 2.5 degrees. I align my fence to the blade.
> I proceed to rip a number of pieces of lumber. They all come out perfect. How had the error in milling the miter slot had any effect of my job? How will it ever effect any ripping that I do?


It won't. The miter slot is assumed to be straight, and usually is. If it's off, it'd be no more useful than any other point on the top.


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

But don't try to angle your fence thinking that it will replace a tapering jig... Even a tapering jig rides on a path that is parallel to the blade, it just holds the workpiece at an angle.


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## oldmacnut (Dec 27, 2010)

First....

Buy a minimum 2 blades. Spend the money, do NOT cheap out.
Pay for some Freud, CMT, Forrest, whatever, but just pay the money now, it pays off in the long run. Get a rip blade, and a crosscut blade.

Second.....

Buy the stuff you need to clean those blades on a regular basis. I myself...I use this stuff called "purple power" at Walmart, I put some in a little container, use a small brush, and clean the carbide teeth with the purple power full strength, it works fast, its a strong degreaser.

Third......

Place one of your blades you bought in your saw, and do your adjustments. 


Side note....
Blades need lubrication to, there is a spray you can buy that will help keep the blades from burning, I said help, not stop. I think there is an article in last months wood magazine about this issue.

I noticed this week my fence and riving knife get dirty quicker than other parts, I'm going to get some UHMV or whatever you call it for my fence, and wax my riving knife twice a week.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Woodworking Talk


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

The problem that many of you folks are having about the relationship between the miter slot and ripping is that your table saw HAS a miter slot. Because it has this miter slot you think that it is necessary to do something with it for a ripping operation. Surely everything is put on a saw for a reason to be used in all operations. 

Remember this thread started because the original poster was having a problem with ripping.

What would you do if I gave you a table saw that had NO miter slot and told you to use it for ripping? You would use the saw and have no problem with normal, everyday ripping. Because the miter slot had no function in normal ripping operations.

The thing that matters in ripping is that the blade and fence are properly aligned. This it is. It is simple.

George


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

GeorgeC said:


> The problem that many of you folks are having about the relationship between the miter slot and ripping is that your table saw HAS a miter slot. Because it has this miter slot you think that it is necessary to do something with it for a ripping operation. Surely everything is put on a saw for a reason to be used in all operations.
> 
> Remember this thread started because the original poster was having a problem with ripping.
> 
> ...


No. We're telling someone who is new to woodworking and is new to his saw that there's no reason to not go ahead and make sure all portions of it are set up correctly. This is it. It is simple.

FWIW, I don't have miter slots on my saw. I still made sure the sliding miter table was properly set up. It's common sense.


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## Chris86 (Aug 27, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> The problem that many of you folks are having about the relationship between the miter slot and ripping is that your table saw HAS a miter slot. Because it has this miter slot you think that it is necessary to do something with it for a ripping operation. Surely everything is put on a saw for a reason to be used in all operations.
> 
> Remember this thread started because the original poster was having a problem with ripping.
> 
> ...


No one is saying the miter slots have anything to do with ripping.

Yes, the fence needs to be parallel to the BLADE. BUT the blade also must be parallel to the SLOTS. Therefore if your blade is parallel to the miter slots, then the miter slots CAN be used as a reference point to align the fence.

Yes there are other ways of aligning the fence, but for those with miter slots, this is an easy and convenient way.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Chris86 said:


> Yes there are other ways of aligning the fence, but for those with miter slots, this is an easy and convenient way.


And, if the saw has no miter slots, the fence and the blade should be made parallel.












 







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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

Here is a decent video on 



.

You can find many videos on youtube on how to calibrate/tune your TS.

I'm a one year old newbie. I bought a Craftsman 22114, and knew right away it would out of alignment about 1/16 of an inch. However I was not eager to solve the problem (and decided when I started building things require precision I would make the adjustments),so I simply adjusted the fence to the blade. On the 22114 there was enough slop in the fence that I could easily do this for some cutting. However I can't tell you how many bad cuts I had. The end came when I was doing a project with some hard wood, and every time I ripped something the board was being kicked back. It was down right dangerous and I knew I was being lazy not dealing with the problem.

What I really didn't want to do was take the wings off the TS cast iron top, the top was perfectly flat. So instead I simply loosened the top bolts, and used a heavy rubber mallet and a sledge hammer hitting the rubber mallet. It took some patience and time but eventually I got the blade square to the miter slot. Since I don't have any precision instruments, I am guessing I might be off less than 1/64.

What a huge improvement, my cross cuts were now dead on square, and my ripping no longer any kick backs, or other associated problems. I bought a new Diablo 1040x blade at Home Depot and that was also a big improvement. One thing, don't assume once you have your saw tuned and aligned that kickbacks and dangerous things won't happen, then can and they will. You have to treat the TS with total respect, safety first.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*slotless tables....*

There's probably not more than a handful of wwt's here that have no miter slots...just guessin':blink:
But I thought that it was established in post 22 that they are used as "reference" to align the blade and fence:
A. because they are there in most cases 
B. because it's easy to do as opposed to the edge of the table or some other reference. Trunnions and fences are adjustable for a reason.... accuracy. 
One would have to see the machining process of taking a rough cast iron casting to a finished table saw top to understand the precision involved in milling the edges, slots and the surface. We can "assume" the slots are parallel, but if they aren't then what? 
Nothing is gonna change that, not any DIY, a pro or anyone short of a anal retentive machinst with a huge mill is gonna fix it.
So that's why they are used as the reference....because they are there....:yes:

I done a trunnion alignment a few times on a table mounted system. It ain't fun, but it is satisfying when you get it right.:thumbsup: bill


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

Europe recently made full fences on new table saws illegal. Any new saw purchased over there has a short fence that does not extend as far as the rear of the blade. So... aligning the fence to the rear of the blade is impossible. In fact, the ones I've seen in pictures have the back of the fence shaped to a point. So they are not even parallel beyond the mid point of the blade.

Every manufacturer's manual I've seen says to align things to the miter slot first, then check the fence to the blade. Its the alignment to the blade that matters in ripping as the slot has no function in a rip cut. Our European brothers and sisters can only set the distance from the front of the blade to the fence as their new saws will not allow alignment at the rear. They must have another way of making sure its square overall, either the slot or off the front of the table... I don't know.

Having said all that, as long as the rear of the fence is not closer to the blade than the front, and its not off in the rear by more than a few thousands distance away from the blade, all should be good for any rip operation. A few thousands in toward the blade at the rear and you get binding, burning, kick back, nasty saw marks and a whole host of troubles better avoided.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

yocalif said:


> I'm a one year old newbie.


And your parents let you use a table saw?!?!?!??!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

johnnie52 said:


> *Europe recently made full fences on* *new table saws illegal. Any new saw purchased over there has a short fence that does not extend as far as the rear of the blade. *So... aligning the fence to the rear of the blade is impossible. In fact, the ones I've seen in pictures have the back of the fence shaped to a point. So they are not even parallel beyond the mid point of the blade........


I"m thinking they solved a problem that wasn't .... There's a You Tube guy Steve Maskery? that touts the short fence theory with a British accent. He must have had some influence on the standards people over there. I guess we've been doin' it all wrong over here then. :blink: I have a Unifence that's about 36" long at least, and I use every inch of the thing when ripping, or cross cutting panels to keep them square. Now with a sliding cross cut table that issue goes away. I assume the issue is one of the work opening up after the cut is made or pinching as the case may be for using the short fence. I'll post the video and see what 'oil Steve has to say.... "a smashing idea he says"


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

I've watched some of his stuff and I think he has one of the short fences on a new saw now. Did you happen to notice how in this video, on the second cut after he had made his fence "better" how the piece he was cutting tried to come off the table? Also, IMO he is wasting the power he could have in his push stick by having only the very rear of the stick on the work piece? I'd use a lot of that "meat" to help hold down on the piece being cut.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup*

I was not impressed either. When I saw the piece lift off I said "Does this guy know what he's doin'?" I can do without all the "improvements" myself. Just a Biese fence, splitter, guard (most of the time) and a really good push stick. :thumbsup: bill

I'd be "smashing" that idea unless I've totally missed something. While I understand the technical part about the cut is made after the wood passes the front of the blade, the rear of the blade is still trying to lift the piece up and forward. The kerf must stay open to prevent kickback, therefore the splitter. And downward pressure after the cut is sometimes necessary but not always in my experience.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

johnnie52 said:


> Europe recently made full fences on new table saws illegal. Any new saw purchased over there has a short fence that does not extend as far as the rear of the blade.


I've used a short fence, and it presents its own problems. Personally, I like a standard length fence (longer the better). The theory behind the short fence, is that it provides space so wood passing the blade doesn't get trapped between the blade and the fence. 

Anyone that has ripped solid wood will know that wood can "walk" in either direction. It doesn't necessarily have to want to swing to the right, where there's no fence to create a problem, but it could "walk" to the left. Even with having a riving knife/splitter, the wood can bind up on them. With very long lumber, not having a guide after the fence, allows the cut end to go in any direction, which can affect the direction of the end not yet cut.












 







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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I've adjusted my saw. I still find that it still can be very tough to push the wood throuh(though not as much) when I use the fence. But not when i use the miter gauge. This is especially true for 8/4 stock.

I purchased a diablo all-purpose blade, it is a bit thinner kerf than the one that came with the saw. (0.09" vs 0.125" i believe). I think the riving knife might be a hair thicker than the blade, could the be the cause of my binding? Maybe it's getting stuck on the riving knife, not the blade. I guess I could find out by removing the knife temporarily (and make sure I watch out for kickback as well) and see if it stops.

If this turns out to be the issue, is there a thicker-kerf blade you would recommend? Thanks.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Sounds like that's the issue*

See if there is a thinner riving knife. A full kerf blade would be the next choice. Freud Fusion is a great F-K blade. Onsrud, Delta, Leitz are also good blades. If your saw runs on 115 volts and is less than 2 Hp I'd try to stay with the think kerf. I have great results with the Freud Diablo in 24, 40, and 60 tooth.  bill


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I will check. I am thinking of switching my saw to 240v. Will that give me more power? I know my saw is listed for both, and I am putting a new subpanel in my shop this week.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*some say yes, other no*

What it will do is allow you to use no. 12 wire for the wiring to you new 220 outlets. If a tool requires 18 amps on 120 volts, it needs only 9 amps on 220v, so the wire size can be smaller. Put in a 60 amp or larger sub panel for your shop. I have a 100 amp and it's all used up, with lots of 220 v breakers which require 2 slots per breaker. 
What saw and HP do you have?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

secutanudu said:


> I will check. I am thinking of switching my saw to 240v. Will that give me more power? ....


No, but if you're 110v line is unable to provide full amperage, a 220v line might help. Signs of inadequate current flow are slow startups, slow recovery from bogging, lights dimming when the saw starts, etc. Is there anything else running on your saw's 110v line? 




secutanudu said:


> I purchased a diablo all-purpose blade, it is a bit thinner kerf than the one that came with the saw. (0.09" vs 0.125" i believe). I think the riving knife might be a hair thicker than the blade, could the be the cause of my binding?


A 1/8" (0.125") full kerf blade is 33% thicker than a 3/32" (0.094") thin kerf blade....not much in terms of inches, but is a significant percentage increase. I thought that saw came with a TK blade, but I could be wrong. Either way, if the riving knife is binding that's a bad situation that you'll want to address by using a thinner riving knife or thicker blade.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I am still having major trouble getting this fence to aligh with the blade. The rip fence is basically useless to me at this point. The saw also seems underpowered, I am not too happy with it.

I don;t think the binding is being caused by the riving knife. I do think it's the alignment, but I'm not certain.

No matter what I do, when the stock hits the back part of the blade, it gets quite difficult to feed, leaving saw marks and sometimes burns in the wood. Is there possibly something wrong with my technique?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Have you adjusted the blade alignment by moving the trunnions? Assuming the miter slots are straight and parallel, the blade should be within +/-0.003", using the miter slot as a reference. That's fairly tight, but is attainable with patience and precision....it's a little tedious, but doable. 

Once the blade alignment is as close as you can get it, the fence should have separate adjustments that you can tweak to get it parallel with the blade. 

It's easy enough to isolate if the riving knife is the cause, by removing it just for a test cut. Be careful, and use straight flat stock. If your stock is bowed, twisted, undulating, or otherwise deviates from flat and straight, it will be more difficult to cut. A decent 40T or 50T blade should be fine for stock up to ~ 1.5"....much over that and you should be using a 24T ripper. That saw will have an easier time spinning a 3/32" thin kerf blade. If the alignment is spot on all around, check the pulley alignment, and belt tension too, but it sounds like something is misaligned to me.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I'll work tonight on leveling it again. I have been doing the alignment by moving the trunnions. 

I should add that when i first tried to adjust the saw, I stupidly removed the bolts from the back and the whole motor came out. I hope i'm not the first idiot to do that 

I honestly don't think it broke or bent anything, luckily the base held it from crashing down. Once I got it back in I started doing the adjustments the proper way (loostening about 1/2 turn, tapping with a mallet).

What's the easiest way to check for blade parallelism to the miter slot? I don't have one of those little gauges, so I've been using a combination square. How do I check what the actual error in alignment is, so I know I am close to the .003" mark?

I do hope to get a sawstop contractor saw soon to replace this one....mostly for the safety feature, but also for the great fence system. I do realize, however, that even a poorly aligned $10,000 cabinet saw will give me the same problem.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I've own a dial indicator, but tend to use a combination square. It's extremely convenient, and nearly as precise if you use it right. With the square's edge along the inside of the right side miter slot, I adjust the square so that the end of the ruler ever so slightly "ticks" the edge of a tooth at the front....mark the tooth, rotate the same tooth to the back of the saw, and check that tooth again with the combo square...listen for the same amount of contact. If it clicks harder or misses completely it's not adjusted right. Be careful not to flex the blade.

Once you get that dialed in, then check the fence to blade alignment. I prefer to leave the back end of the fence with a very slight toe out away from the blade...less than the thickness of a business card, to compensate of any deviations that might cause toe in, which can cause binding, burning, and ultimately kickback. 

Given what you've stated, the first thing I'd check is the riving knife.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*agreed*

Remove the riving knife, then make this simple check.
Take a 1 x 6 about 3 ft long and start a cut in from the end, a rip for about 3". Stop the saw, flip the board end for end and see if it will set down on the blade from the rear with no gap to the fence. If not..... somethin' ain't right. 
Either the fence is off, it it's not flush/even with the miter slot or the blade/trunnions are not parallel to the miter slot. The fence is easy to adjust. Then work on the trunnions. using your sliding square as suggested.  bill


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I think I have 3 of them around the shop on various saws. I have the 24 tooth rip on a saw as well. Go full out and get BOTH you won't have to spend more than $75.00....not bad! :thumbsup: bill


That's over half what I paid for my saw, Bill! I still have the factory Craftsman blade on my saw after 2 years. I was going to take it off and get a better blade on there but for some reason I can't remember that never happened. 

Occasionally you can even tell in my cuts that I have a dull mediocre quality blade on my saw.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I finally got to adjusting this the best I could, I think there may be a defect in this saw. I cannot get the blade and miter slot in line. I loosen the rear trunion, tap it with a mallet. I can get it in line, but no matter how much I move it, it goes back to the same non-aligned spot when I tighten it back up. 

I also tried taking the riving knife off and got major kickback every time (I knew to stand out of the way because I expected it to happen).

Is there anything I can do? I have read stories from other users of this saw who have alignment problems. I did buy it from craigslist, but it was brand new in the box, the guy had never opened it. I doubt I have any type of warranty. 

Any other ideas?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that should be a simple fix*

Loosen all but one of the bolts to allow it to rotate in the proper direction for alignment. Then wedge the assembly over until it aligns. If there are flat washer on the bolts remove them. There should be star washers, not flat or lock washers. if not you'll need to get some, but replace them one at a time or the whole assembly will drop. Tighten them one at a time, but gradually to avoid shifting the assembly. That should do it.  bill


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I'll give that a shot, bill. Only problem is the front 2 bolts are not easily accessible, but I will find a way to get to them!

So only one bolt on the trunnion, if it's tightly fastened, will be enough to hold that end of the assembly from falling? 

Is this what you mean by star washers?










Thanks.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

It's been a long time since I serviced or set up my table saw, have not looked at this as I still get a jointer finish on a rip cut using a mid priced combo blade.

Your miter gauge slots need to be parralel to the blade. I did not and won't use a tape measure for that. Dial gauges are cheap and riding down the blade on the gauge is fast. The table needs to be adjusted to get in spec.

If I remember correctly, my fence is not set parralel to the blade. I offset the back of my fence by 1/32" away from the blade. The reason for that was to prevent burning marks, as you cut a few thousends wider than the actual blade kerf, meaning there is no surface rubbing. On kiln dried hard woods this gets pretty important.

I know this sounds real stupid, but from your description I have to ask. Are you sure the blade is in the right way around? I once put a blade the wrong way around in a circular saw, by accident. It sure makes a lot of smoke. :laughing:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

secutanudu said:


> I finally got to adjusting this the best I could, I think there may be a defect in this saw. I cannot get the blade and miter slot in line. I loosen the rear trunion, tap it with a mallet. I can get it in line, but no matter how much I move it, it goes back to the same non-aligned spot when I tighten it back up.
> 
> ...


Grabbing at straws here....Sometimes the hardware gets a little out of shape, so it's worth replacing with harder better grade bolts and washers. Sometimes there's a burr where the castings and trunnion brackets mate to the table that can make it hard to align....this would require you to turn the saw upside down and remove the trunnion assembly, and file or grind down any burrs. Sometimes the holes in the trunnion brackets aren't large enough to accommodate the adjustment that's needed...this would also require you to turn the saw upside down and remove the trunnion assembly, then ream out the holes in the trunnion brackets more. (the trunnion brackets are the curved pieces found at the front and back end of the assembly that bolt to the table.)

This takes a bit of work, but if it works it'll be well worth it, plus you'll get some life long lessons in the inner workings of your table saw. This link might help.

If that's more than you think you can handle with the saw, you should still be able to adjust the fence parallel to the blade even if the blade isn't parallel to the miter slot, as long as it isn't too far off. Figure 50 in the online manual shows where to make this adjustment. If you chose this approach you'll also have to adjust your miter gauge so that it's 90° square to the blade so you'll get square crosscuts.


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## dmh (Sep 18, 2010)

secutanudu said:


> I finally got to adjusting this the best I could, I think there may be a defect in this saw. I cannot get the blade and miter slot in line. I loosen the rear trunion, tap it with a mallet. I can get it in line, but no matter how much I move it, it goes back to the same non-aligned spot when I tighten it back up.
> 
> I also tried taking the riving knife off and got major kickback every time (I knew to stand out of the way because I expected it to happen).
> 
> ...


I don’t know if this has been mentioned or not but here goes.

I had this problem with my Ridgid. Is the blade tilted all the way to the 90 deg stop? If so, set it at 90 deg, back the stop off, and then try adjusting it.

On mine there had to be a little dimple where it hit the stop. Every time I would adjust it and tighten it back up it would move back. Once I backed the stop off it tightened right up in the spot I had it.

Also your going to have to loosen the front trunion as well when your adjusting it.


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## Big Stud (Dec 2, 2011)

I was a sawman in a high end custom cabinet shop for a long time. Listen to cabinetman, it does NOT take expensive fancy tools to set up your saw. Just do what he said with a tape measure, and get your tablesaw set up properly. You will be able to make any cut after that without too much trouble. There will always be issues concerning warped wood that will cause binding, but straightened stock will cut like butter on a hot day with a good blade and a well set up saw. The saw I ran in our shop was a 15" Altendorf sliding table saw and had no mitre slots, but the blade still had to be paralell to the fence and squared to the crosscut table. At home I make sure that the blade is paralell to the mitre gague slot, then merely eye up the fence on the slot as well and viola,


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

I think the OP said his saw was a new Craftsman, I think after all the hours spent it is time to get Sears to look at the saw. If he is lucky there will be a Sears repair center near where he lives. There is one here in Sac, and I have talked twice to the guy in charge who said they have a serious machinist type guy who understands how to make these things work correct & precise. Hopefully the OP would be lucky enough to have same in his area.

I could be wrong but I think his Craftsman 21833 is similar to my Craftsman 22114 which only requires the 4 bolts that fasten the table top to the frame loosened and adjustment to square the top/miter slot to the blade. Adding in the trunnion adjustments might work for those advance and with the necessary equipment to measure, but a novice that only needs to knock his top to square with the blade could easily get lost, by adding in trunnion adjustment. 

Thats why I'm recommending for the OP to get back to square one, have Sears look at the saw. Another thing he could do is contact a local Woodworking club and see if he can get one of the experience guys to give him a hand for a few beers and pizza.

Last the OP should not expect the fence on that saw to be square with the blade unless he measure the blade to fence every time the fence is moved, (measuring both front tooth of blade to fence then same tooth rotated to back and measured to fence. That fence is similar to the 22114 fence and the repeatability is just not build into that fence. That is why I just bought a used 22124 for the Biesemeyer fence. 

About power, according to the specs that saw has a 1 3/4 hp motor, which should do just fine on most cuts including hard lumber which might require a little slower feed rate. OP are you using an extension cord. If so you should only use a 12 ga extension cord. You can get away with about a 15' 14ga, but why bother just go buy a 12 ga. 

Just some thoughts on this long thread.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I believe the OP bought the saw from a second party, and likely has little recourse with Sears, though there might be some manufacturers warranty time remaining. Unscrupulous people might buy a new one and return the defective one, but I know no one here would do that! 

The 21833 is made by Dayton, and is very similar to the Ridgid R4512, but other than the nameplate has little in common with the 22114/22124.


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## yocalif (Nov 11, 2010)

knotscott said:


> I believe the OP bought the saw from a second party, and likely has little recourse with Sears, though there might be some manufacturers warranty time remaining. Unscrupulous people might buy a new one and return the defective one, but I know no one here would do that!
> 
> The 21833 is made by Dayton, and is very similar to the Ridgid R4512, but other than the nameplate has little in common with the 22114/22124.


I didn't know if the OP bought the saw new, if he didn't there are specialty shops that can help him also, (the going rate around here is $60 diagnostic and $80 an hour+parts). I appreciate the correction that the 21833 isn't the same as the 22114, I only took a glance at the pics and thought it was a hybrid similar to the 22114, but apparently it is a contractor saw thus the trunnion adjustments. I apologize for shooting from the hip without careful examination of the specifics.

It does sound like the op has exhausted whatever he is capable of doing to make the necessary adjustments and needs some pro type help. While the lessons learned are important, at the end of the day if the saw isn't cutting square then the result is more frustration, which sounds like where he is at.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

I did buy the saw from a 3rd party, but it was new. I doubt I have any recourse with sears. 

All said and done, I don't really want to put too much money into fixint this one because I plan to get a sawstop in march (tax refund anyone?). Mostly for the safety system, but also because I hear nothing but great reviews on the t-glide fence system.

I do have a few more things left to try to get this one to work "ok" till I get the new one.

What about this idea....What If I were to clamp a piece of wood to my fence that only went from the back part (where I stand) to about 2/3 of the way up the blade. From 2/3 of the blade back, there'd be no fence. There'd also be no binding. Would this screw up my cuts?


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Have you tried adjusting the fence parallel to the blade yet? I'd give that a go first....should take about 60 seconds.


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

knotscott said:


> Have you tried adjusting the fence parallel to the blade yet? I'd give that a go first....should take about 60 seconds.


Tomorrow


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## Mandres (Sep 6, 2011)

I remember seeing a good video on youtube at one point for adjusting for blade/miter slot parallel on contractor saws with table-mounted trunions. I'll see if I can find it. 

But yea knotscot is right that if you can't/don't want to fiddle with the trunions then you should at least be able to get the blade and fence parallel to each other so that the backside of the blade doesn't rub on the upstroke. 

you could even do it the lazy way and lay a fixed-width object (like a metal ruler) against the blade and adjust the fence up flush against it. If you do this I would use a thin shim (playing card) for the back side of the fence so it has a little bit of toe out from the blade (and so that any variance in the spacing between front and rear teeth on the blade doesn't affect the end result). If you're still getting burning/lifting after that then it has to be the riving knife or something more gnarly like a warped arbor.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

secutanudu said:


> Tomorrow


Hey wait.....that was yesterday! :laughing:


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## secutanudu (Oct 13, 2011)

knotscott said:


> Hey wait.....that was yesterday! :laughing:


1-day reprieve please!


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