# Will Cheap Pocket Hole Jigs Do The Job?



## Wood4Brains

Hi there, Everyone:

I hope to do some joints for 2 X 3s with miter cuts for a free standing clothing rack, as well as some butt joints for other projects, and I was wondering if the inexpensive Pocket Hole Jigs that I see on ebay will be ok.

What are the main differences between the expensive jig systems (like the Kreg Master system, which sells for about $140 on ebay), and the less expensive jig systems that sell for around $25 on ebay?

Oh, and one other question; Why do some of the high-end pocket jig systems have a vacuum attachment? Does drilling the pilot hole create so much dust / shavings that you need to clean out the hole before drilling in the pocket screws?


----------



## Wood4Brains

Hmmm...

It seems that the guides on the cheap jigs are made out of aluminum instead hardened steel and they wear out quickly. Also seems that the specially designed drill bits that come with the cheaper jigs have a tendency to break easily.

On the other hand, I see there is a Kreg R3 Jr. Pocket Hole Jig System that sells for around $40 on ebay. Will that work on 2 X 3 pieces of pine / fir / other soft woods? (It says it works on wood up to 1 and 1/2 inch thick and since a 2 X 3 is SLIGHTLY thicker than 1 and 1/2 inches, will it still create a strong joint?


----------



## johnep

I paid a total of $15 for one hole Kreg pocket hole jig from an on line tool supplier. Works very well.
Try that and if find useful, could go to larger one.
johnep


----------



## burkhome

johnep34 said:


> I paid a total of $15 for one hole Kreg pocket hole jig from an on line tool supplier. Works very well.
> Try that and if find useful, could go to larger one.
> johnep


 I used this for a couple years before I upgraded. It works fine, just not as convenient and takes a little longer.


----------



## cabinetman

There are better methods of joinery than using pocket screws. If you're into woodworking it may be worthwhile to learn them. JMO.









 







.


----------



## Carvel Loafer

I bought the Kreg master system, true it cost me more than just a single hole jig, but I wanted the clamping system that is part of it. I really like it but I don't see the need for a vacuum system. Some people though have a mild obsession to collect any and all dust and chips produced. I understand that too, but pocket holes don't create much in the way of chips to warrant the roar of a vacuum cleaner. Where I would connect a vacuum to it would be if the jig is bench mounted and if I was doing a large number of pieces. But then again, I like walking in wood chips so the roar of the vacuum would take away from that part of shop work. :smile:


----------



## burkhome

cabinetman said:


> There are better methods of joinery than using pocket screws. If you're into woodworking it may be worthwhile to learn them. JMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 I don't use Kreg jig a lot, but it has it's place. M&T gets used more in my shop.


----------



## Wood4Brains

Thanks for the replies everyone.



> I paid a total of $15 for one hole Kreg pocket hole jig from an on line tool supplier. Works very well.


How thick of a piece of wood will that work with? Will it work with 2 X 3s (assuming I am going through the 2 side and not the 3 side)?



> There are better methods of joinery than using pocket screws. If you're into woodworking it may be worthwhile to learn them. JMO.


Thanks again, cabinetman.

I respect your opinion and I am very thankful for your help. My concern is that I don't know if I will be able to do those other methods of joining. I have very limited tools and an even more limited budget.

The good news is that I MIGHT be able to get an inexpensive 10 Inch table saw. If I can get one, will I be able to do the other methods of joining you mentioned with the 10 inch saw? (like the M&T joint?)

Thanks in advance.


----------



## johnep

> How thick of a piece of wood will that work with? Will it work with 2 X 3s (assuming I am going through the 2 side and not the 3 side)?


Not I would think with standard length Kreg screws, but used on my kitchen table to fix leg frame to top. Certainly could try, but would worry if twisting force applied to such a joint. If OK to show holes could pocket screw all sides.


----------



## PaliBob

Wood4Brains said:


> .....I see there is a Kreg R3 Jr. Pocket Hole Jig System that sells for around $40 on ebay.......


 I recommend the Kreg R3 as a Pocket Hole starter jig.
The R3 is primarily used in to drill holes in wood that is being assembled
in a new project. A more versatile Kreg jig that can be can also be used
alongside the drill bit in the R3 Kit is the bare bones Kreg $9



.


----------



## PaliBob

Wood4Brains said:


> .......and since a 2 X 3 is SLIGHTLY thicker than 1 and 1/2 inches, will it still create a strong joint?


 I've used the Kreg Mini Jig to repair and or reinforce 4x4 newel Posts using Kreg 2-1/2" Blue-Kote Screws.:thumbsup:


----------



## johnep

These screws should certainly do the job. I have the 1 1/2 inch screws and for other sizes simply use a suitable washer to prevent 'pull through'.
johnep


----------



## PaliBob

Pocket Hole screws from Kreg max out at 2 ½”
Kreg screw start at ¾”, #6, fine thread
then the four primary Kreg lengths (in many fine or coarse sizes, #7 or #8)
1 ¼”
1 ½”
2”
2 ½
All four lengths are also in Blue-Kote or Stainless
Kreg is not the only supplier
I like: McFEELY'S
They list 35 pocket hole screws from Kreg or _'other sources'_ (guess ?)

Does anybody have other sources for pocket screws?


----------



## PaliBob

johnep34 said:


> .....for other sizes simply use a suitable washer to prevent 'pull through'.....


McFEELY's has a running special on screws that they call 25-25-25 that consist of:

25 different boxed screws
25 screws in each box
*$25* For the whole shebang. Inludes 2ea square & star bits
1$ Shipping & Handling
 Now the good news is that set includes 10 different Pocket Screws
25 of each type:

Coarse Thread
•	#6 x 1"
•	#6 x 1 ¼
•	#6 x 1 ½
Fine Thread
•	#6 x 1-1/4"
•	#6 x 1-1/2"
Super 8
•	#8 x 1-1/4"
•	#8 x 1-1/2"
Saw tooth Washer Head
•	#8 x 1-1/4" 
•	#8 x 2"
#PocketMax® Pocket Hole
•	#10 x 2-5/8"
The other 15 boxes of screws have some pretty awesome screws.
• Bob


----------



## knotscott

I've got a nice Kreg Pro system, and an older Kreg Rocket . The Pro system is nice, but the basic jig mated with a decent quick grip type clamp works well enough. Taking the jump to the Kreg Jr. R3 System gives the benefit of having that alignment lip (and a double hole), but it about doubles the cost of the basic $20 jig/bit kit.


----------



## PaliBob

knotscott said:


> .......the basic jig mated with a decent quick grip type clamp works well enough........


 The HFT clamp is normally ~$7 but now on sale for $5. They work great
for clamping the 



 in position to drill the pocket hole.
Kreg makes a 20$ face Clamp that does the same thing and after the pocket hole is drilled can be used to align the face of the two pieces being connected. However the cheapo clamp will do the same thing if a spare shim is used to protect the work surface while driving the pocket screw.


----------



## Wood4Brains

Thanks for the tip and the alert, PailBob :smile:


----------



## PaliBob

Face Frame clamps still have their place.
The cheapest Kreg FF clamp is ~ $20

But Peachtree has a 6" FF clamp for $9.99

and a 11" FF clamp for $13.99 ( Compares to Kreg $30 clamps)


----------



## Joeb41

Kreg has a new Jig out that is especially for 2X stock with bigger drill bit and bigger screws in case you are interested.

Joe B.


----------



## PaliBob

Joeb41 said:


> Kreg has a new Jig out that is especially for 2X stock with bigger drill bit........


Kreg now has three sizes of Pocket hole drills:
*KJD/MICROBIT*- 19/64"...can use base Kreg guides with the "Micro drill guide"
*KJD*- 3/8" Standard (original) size
*KJDHD*- new 1/2" drill size, requires the new HD kit $60
 Here is a Kreg pdf with what you Get
Of course larger screws are also required. 




Note: The Kreg *HD* screws are now available in *Only one Length*
.


----------



## PaliBob

Just a note for use of Kreg 2 ½”* HD* screws on construction projects.
The HD screws have a three coat protection for use in corrosive environments. 

However they are not rated for use with pressure treated *ACQ* lumber. 
At the present time there are no *HD* Stainless Steel screws
as there is for the regular size Kreg 2 ½” SS Screws


----------



## Leo G

cabinetman said:


> There are better methods of joinery than using pocket screws. If you're into woodworking it may be worthwhile to learn them. JMO.


Stay on topic please....:laughing:


----------



## firemedic

cabinetman said:


> There are better methods of joinery than using pocket screws. If you're into woodworking it may be worthwhile to learn them. JMO.
> .





Leo G said:


> Stay on topic please....:laughing:


I think that's very much on topic. I agree with cabinetman... That's just two guy's opinions though. Sometimes answering a question about A or B is best answered by introduction of C.


----------



## Leo G

This is the subject.



> What are the main differences between the expensive jig systems (like the Kreg Master system, which sells for about $140 on ebay), and the less expensive jig systems that sell for around $25 on ebay?


----------



## firemedic

Leo G said:


> This is the subject.


At the risk of being perceived as a "troll" and ticking off a Mod-God...


...I've said it before and I'll say it again - sometimes the debate between option A or B is best answered by introducing option C.

Sure, the guy who only knows A or only knows B will recommend based on that which is in his comfort zone. The guy who has tried both will recommend based on experience of the two... but the guy who has tried A through G might just recommend an option not previously on the table. It's an open discussion of ideas, not a voter's ballot. 

Pocket screws Vs M&T or a blind DT is like pitting Harbor Freight Vs Lei Nielsen... We all know how that stacks up. It doesn't matter how cheap or easy the shortcut is, it's still a shoddy solution. 

China perfected cheap production... Why do we hate Chinese products yet mimic they're lack of craftsmanship? If it's faster and cheaper fine... Say so. But no amount of bottom dollar justifies poor craftsmanship regardless. 

It's still shoddy.


----------



## Leo G

There are a lot of things I use pocket screws for that another type of jointery wouldn't really be better. I make my face frames using PSs (and glue) and then they get glued onto my FFs. Now the glue on the case is what is going to hold the FFs together along with the glue in the FF. Making them mortise and tenon is pretty much a waste of my time.

On occasion I use them to put cabinets together, usually I use glue and dadoes.

When I do furniture I like to use mortise and tenon when the client is willing to pay for my time to do so. I recently made a table that I used PSs instead of M&T because of price. I'm pretty sure that table is going to be around for 25 more years. If I did M&T it would be timeless. But that's what they wanted and 25 years isn't Chinese quality.

You can present a different answer to his question, but it's not answering his question.

And you'd have to do a lot more to get me upset. Hard to be a troll with 4000+ posts :laughing:


----------



## Wood4Brains

Being the original poster who asked the question about pocket jigs, I hope you don't mind if I weigh in (seeing now that we are officially off topic :laughing: )

Firstly, this forum has been a *GREAT* resource for me, and I find the people who post on this forum *INCREDIBLY* helpful. People like cabinetman, Dave Paine, knottscott, woodnthings, firemedic, and gosh, so many others that I can't even think of their names (sorry), have been incredibly patient, detailed, and encouraging.

Yup, there have been a few posts from people where I wasn't sure if they actually read the question I asked, mostly because it was a comparison between A and B, and they said, "Do C instead," and I had NO IDEA what they were talking about. It's also tough when they use abbreviations that someone new to woodworking would not be able to comprehend.

So all I can say is that I think most all of us noobs *REALLY* appreciate any and *ALL* of the help we can get on these forums, but we kindly ask if when you suggest something that is an "Option C," please kindly take a moment to explain a little more about option C, and please kindly explain WHY we should investigate it (i.e., what are the benefits of option c when compared to Option A or Option B).

To be honest, yes, I was a little miffed by cabinetman's post about learning other jointing methods, as it seemed a bit curt and dismissive. On the other hand, he probably has a lot less time to post on these forums than I do (I'm near the computer all day), so he was probably just trying to use his time efficiently. (And I should repeat again that in many other threads, cabinetman has been incredibly helpful to me.)

Anyway, again, this has been a great forum for me to learn. It is very well moderated, and that shows in the quality of the posts, and in the quality of the people who post regularly. Anyone involved with maintaining this forum should be proud of their work.

Thanks again to everyone for making this such a welcoming place to learn. :smile:


----------



## firemedic

I guess I went off half-cocked. Pocket screws are just one of those things. 

Any which way, I'll go back to my hand tools section, dang I'm there... I'll stay on the hand tool threads where I belong :smile:


----------



## cabinetman

Pocket screws aren't a new idea. Years before their introduction, joining methods requiring a fastener was done in a much more simple way, not requiring a jig. Back then it was called "toe nailing", or "toe screwing". 

There's a question about needing to fasten the rails to the stiles for a face frame. An M &T does somewhat qualify as overkill. In actuality, once the parts are glued and clamped to the cabinet's leading edge, it ain't going anywhere. It just needs to sustain the handling during fabrication, finishing, delivery and installation. It also has to carry the weight and action of hinged doors.

Alternative joinery for face frames can be as simple as cross clamping the rails to the stiles with glue, and at the same time, clamping the whole frame to the leading edge of the cabinet with glue. If fasteners are needed either before installing to the cabinet, or while installing to the cabinet, "toe nailing", or "toe screwing" can be used.

Keeping this discussion simple, instead of using a jig to be set up to drill an angle pilot hole, and using special screws, a small drill bit is used on an angle, and a trim screw installed. The trim screw is about the size of a 4d finish nail. It will leave a very small hole, and its diameter doesn't create much displacement, which can weaken the stock. Or, if it's just a matter of fixing the two members together until glue dries, a small hole can be drilled on an angle to the clamped parts, and a small finish nail can be tapped into place and a nail set to seat the head...another tiny hole. 

These holes can be situated on the top and bottom of a face frame, on the inside corners, or, through the stiles on party cabinets, which is very easy access.









 







.


----------



## Wood4Brains

Thanks again, cabinetman.

By the way, you might be psychic, because I was just about to ask about the differences between the way pocket screws work and how toe nailing works. It seems like the physics behind it is more or less the same.


----------



## Carvel Loafer

So, kind of back to the topic. :yes: 

I know you bought the mini jig which is great, it just takes a little more effort to line things up. Like I mentioned earlier, I bought the master Kreg jig because of the clamping system. Not that pocket screws are a replacement for skilled joinery, I don't think anyone would contest that, but it is a quick easy solution when one is needed or when the assembly doesn't warrant the time and effort of skilled joinery. The master jig makes it an easy decision when a pocket screw will do the job. I never thought I would say it but I do like them, but certainly in their place. So a good jig, in my opinion, is worth having. :yes:


----------



## Wood4Brains

*@ Carvel Loafer*

thanks for your input.

yeah, it seems to me that there is no substitute for LEARNING how to do various joints properly, especially for paying clients and / or demanding situations.

It also seems like a decent jig could pay for itself in terms of time saved / sanity preserved when doing a joint that will be hidden or won't have demanding stresses on it.

It's good to know that they both have their places.


----------

