# Wax finish for teak veneer?



## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

I am working on a sideboard from the 70s in teak veneer, which I stripped and bleached (with two component bleach) as I didn't like its dark stain. It now has a colour I like and I would go for a natural finish in wax (was thinking of Briwax). But after enduring all the washing I wonder if I should also oil it before applying wax? I'm hesitating because I don't want the colour to darken again. I also read that teak is naturally oil rich and can be left untreated, would even withstand weather - so maybe just wax can be done. But this is only a thin veneer, after all, I can't believe there is much oil left after bleaching.
Does anybody have some advice on this? Any thoughts are highly appreciated.
Thank you, Sig


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would just use pure Tung oil, and no wax.











 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Sig said:


> I am working on a sideboard from the 70s in teak veneer, which I stripped and bleached (with two component bleach) as I didn't like its dark stain. It now has a colour I like and I would go for a natural finish in wax (was thinking of Briwax). But after enduring all the washing I wonder if I should also oil it before applying wax? I'm hesitating because I don't want the colour to darken again. I also read that teak is naturally oil rich and can be left untreated, would even withstand weather - so maybe just wax can be done. But this is only a thin veneer, after all, I can't believe there is much oil left after bleaching.
> Does anybody have some advice on this? Any thoughts are highly appreciated.
> Thank you, Sig


Since it's 70's furniture, and veneer, the steaming of the log when prepping it for slicing would have rid a lot of the natural oils from the teak to begin with. The factory would have seen to it that more was removed before finishing, and the 1 part bleach [lye] would have turned any remaining oils to fatty acids. so it's a safe bet there would be little to no oil in a 1/28" venner or thinner.

You don't mention if you neutralized it with vinegar? But i'm assuming since you know how to beach that you did. But by chance if you did not, then i would suggest you do to stop any remaining action of the lye upon the wood ok?

As to wax, I, as C'man, would not use wax by itself as a finish. To soft, and if for some reason you have to remove it all, it's a pain. Tung does not darken to any degree and what little it does, it does not continue to darken as BLO would. 

That said, unless you were to tell me if it's going to be used as a sideboard still and may get things put on it of a dining room nature/ hot plates/ wines/ etc., i would hesitate to reccomend anything.


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## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you so much, Cabinetman and Chemmy.
I am not a specialist with woodwork, am doing this sideboard for our own use - I'm new to bleaching as well and was rather afraid of it, thinking it might get all patchy, but it worked out well, luckily. I did what it says on the tin, so yes, it's neutralized with vinegar. 
The sideboard will be in the living room, but for storage of other things; there will be more likely books laying around, no dinner plates or glasses.
Yes, possibly using just oil is the way to go. So you're saying that tung oil darkens only a little bit - that's very good news for me! (I once started using tung oil on another veneer surface and stopped after just one coat, because I found it rather smelly. Maybe because I had that tin for too long before. That said, the once treated furniture now doesn't smell any more.)
As to the wax - would not a last coat of wax give it some added protection? I read online that Briwax is, as far as wax goes, quite a hard one.

Thank you for your great help! Sig


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Sig said:


> Thank you so much, Cabinetman and Chemmy.
> I am not a specialist with woodwork, am doing this sideboard for our own use - I'm new to bleaching as well and was rather afraid of it, thinking it might get all patchy, but it worked out well, luckily. I did what it says on the tin, so yes, it's neutralized with vinegar.
> The sideboard will be in the living room, but for storage of other things; there will be more likely books laying around, no dinner plates or glasses.
> Yes, possibly using just oil is the way to go. So you're saying that tung oil darkens only a little bit - that's very good news for me! (I once started using tung oil on another veneer surface and stopped after just one coat, because I found it rather smelly. Maybe because I had that tin for too long before. That said, the once treated furniture now doesn't smell any more.)
> ...


Hi Sig, glad to hear it's neutralized, and that your not using it for it's original intention also. 

That said, On the tung, If you've used it already, you know its an amberish liquid to begin with, and what I'm saying is once it does amber a little more then its color is stable ok? Unlike boiled linseed which continues to darken for a very long time in comparison. 

On the wax, i gave you a couple reasons for not using, but i will inform you a little more, ok? the hardest natural wax on the market is Carnauba, which is most often used when protection and "so called" hardness and shine potential is required. the next hardest being candallila, neither are really hard in comparison to a film forming resin like shellac/nitrocellulose/acrylic/poly/etc., The "hardness" designation, is just a comparison between differing waxes and nothing more.

Next the maintenance level is higher, needing more frequent renewal applications than a film forming resin would. and again it has poor Equilibrium moisture content [EMC] protection unless left very thick on any wood, thus the use of parrifins or other wax to coat the ends of boards so they will not split and crack from qickly gaining or loosing moisture. To put and leave that much wax on a veneer surface would look terrible, lol.

As to briwax, it's not that it does not give protection but i think you will find if you search more, that their talking of applying it over a film forming surface and not used directly over an oil. Wax as a final step after the finish is built up, is and has been a common practice for many decades, but oil/wax finishes stopped being used in the furniture industry, to any degree, about 1922 in favor of either the continued use of shellac and varnish or the new quick drying nitrocellulose lacquers coming out, which pretty much put and end to both wax/oil and shellac/varnish finishes that had been used for 70 plus years prior. 

Best bet is to use the tung, if you like, let it dry and coat with shellac or if you spray, then nitrocellulose. To me tung alone still doesn't give the protection films do. And nitro would have been the most likely canidate for the time period of the piece, depending on whether early or late 70's.


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## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you very much, I really value your help and in depth explanations. I'll do just what you suggest, tung oil and since I'm not spraying will go for the shellac. I hope there won't be a lot to go wrong in the shellac (mine?)field... 
Kind regards, Sig


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Sig said:


> Thank you very much, I really value your help and in depth explanations. I'll do just what you suggest, tung oil and since I'm not spraying will go for the shellac. I hope there won't be a lot to go wrong in the shellac (mine?)field...
> Kind regards, Sig


Well.... if you've never used shellac before it could be somewhat of a problem. tell me if you need help once you get to that stage.


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## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

Thank you very much!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Sig said:


> Thank you very much, I really value your help and in depth explanations. I'll do just what you suggest, tung oil and since I'm not spraying will go for the shellac. I hope there won't be a lot to go wrong in the shellac (mine?)field...
> Kind regards, Sig


If you decide to go the shellac route, use a dewaxed shellac (wax free). I wouldn't use shellac if I had a choice, but rather stick to like materials. Shellac by itself or as an interface (barrier coat) is too soft for my liking.

As for waxes, which I don't use at all, they don't layer with multiple applications, like it may seem.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Interestingly, shellac is one of the hardest "natural" coatings out there. Why most people today don't particularly like it is because they use old shellac instead of freshly made up shellac, shellac starts esterifying as soon as alcohol is added to it to turn it in to a liquid, over time [6-8 months or so] this plasticizing action takes it to the point of not being hard, loss of drying properly, and also loss of water and alcohol resistance.

Fresh dewaxed shellac on the other-hand, is very water resistant, fairly alcohol resistant, [once applied and dry], as to alcoholic beverages where the proof is 50% or below, think single malt scotch, etc.. fresh shellac can withstand up to 6 hours or more of direct water contact as a french polish and about 15-30 min with alcoholic beverages. 

Many people have shellac finishes in their bathrooms in Florida - i know because i did them, lol. 

Though there are definitely more protective coatings than shellac, Its a much better finish than people give it credit for being. It's just that people buy it after it's set on a paint store shelf for a long time and is already lost a lot of it's really good qualities. 

Negatives: poor heat resistance, not good for table tops or other where hot items will be put on. Thus my question about it's use to you.

hard to spray heavier cuts [thicknesses] because of it's tenacity to not atomize easily. therefore a retarder is needed [n-propol or n-butyl alcohols].

Positives : Hard, but can be made more flexible, easy to repair, easy to apply by hand or pad, excellent moisture permeation barrier, meaning it does not let water through the film easily. as a dry flake powder, it is non-toxic, and only somewhat toxic in pure ethyl alcohol [ethyl being the alcohol in all alcoholic beverages.] can be sprayed over almost anything with good to excellent adhesion in the normal finish field area, can stop bleeding of stains through a white or other pigmented coating when applied over it, can stop pine resin from destroying other films applied over it. can be used as a pretreatment for wood blotching, can produce i high gloss liquid wet look as a french polish, and much more.

others can do a lot of this also, but they are mostly plastic except for cellulose products. No other "natural resin" has as many benefits as shellac though. :yes:

Though i must admit, my all time favorite spray product is bar top nitrocellulose lacquer.


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## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

Wow, I'm lucky, learning very much from you, (oh wonderful world of internet!), but it also sounds like a really specialized field and risky to DIY... At least I'm fine for the oiling, which I'm going to do over the weekend.
THANK YOU!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> Interestingly, shellac is one of the hardest "natural" coatings out there.


Hardest "natural" coating...that doesn't mean a hill of beans. What's the difference if a coating is "natural" or not. If durability is the question, being "natural" would have nothing to do with it. 

IMO, it's still softer than most any of the film finishes. I might consider using it on a museum piece that would never get touched...the kind that gets roped off, or behind a glass wall.:yes:










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

well... i guess i could have said i would put it up against nitro or acrylic or other evaporative finishes as to endurance of what i stated its good properties are, or that for many decades it was the leading floor finish in america, or that its water resistant permeability and ability to stop bleeding of residues or color can't be ""equalled"" by any friggin coating on earth!! Or that many old houses and buildings in America, are still coated in the original shellac finish, or that it has a wider use in so many different feilds of use that out pace other coatings, or blah, blah, blah, But if you think it's crap, then what difference would it make. 

I'm just offering it as something i know from 45 years of personal use happens to be a much better product than most who have used it, and for the sake of not making there own fresh shellac, to find out for themselves how truly good it is, tend to scoff at it, that's all.

My use of "natural", was only reffering to the fact that the bugs are better chemist than we, to have come up with a coating product so easily produced and easily processed and with so many great properties, that we still can't duplicate in our own present finishes in some areas. Plus the fact it is even much safer than your beloved waterborne coatings C'man. If, by accident, I was to drink a swig of your aqueous polyurethane/lacquer/acrylic/etc., it would be a lot more dangerous to my health, than a swig of shellac in pure 95% ethyl alcohol . 

and in dealing with your "opinions", i often fell like having a swig of shellac. lol


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> well... i guess i could have said i would put it up against nitro or acrylic or other evaporative finishes as to endurance of what i stated its good properties are, or that for many decades it was the leading floor finish in america, or that its water resistant permeability and ability to stop bleeding of residues or color can't be ""equalled"" by any friggin coating on earth!! Or that many old houses and buildings in America, are still coated in the original shellac finish, or that it has a wider use in so many different feilds of use that out pace other coatings, or blah, blah, blah, But if you think it's crap, then what difference would it make.


It was used for all that time because it was easy, cheap, and fast. If you think it's equal to any other finish on Earth, so be it...not my opinion.



chemmy said:


> I'm just offering it as something i know from 45 years of personal use happens to be a much better product than most who have used it, and for the sake of not making there own fresh shellac, to find out for themselves how truly good it is, tend to scoff at it, that's all.


Here we go again with all the background info that is supposed to make your opinion the only right one. You just assume that others haven't done their own experimenting. Well, maybe we have and determined that there are better finishes.



chemmy said:


> My use of "natural", was only reffering to the fact that the bugs are better chemist than we, to have come up with a coating product so easily produced and easily processed and with so many great properties, that we still can't duplicate in our own present finishes in some areas. Plus the fact it is even much safer than your beloved waterborne coatings C'man. If, by accident, I was to drink a swig of your aqueous polyurethane/lacquer/acrylic/etc., it would be a lot more dangerous to my health, than a swig of shellac in pure 95% ethyl alcohol.


I should warn you that the testing methods you are using can be hazardous to your health. They can cause brain damage among other things.



chemmy said:


> and in dealing with your "opinions", i often fell like having a swig of shellac. lol


I take that as a compliment...nothing like raising a glass to toast. Be careful, you don't want to get "shellacked":laughing::laughing:










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> It was used for all that time because it was easy, cheap, and fast. If you think it's equal to any other finish on Earth, so be it...not my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
""
Here we go again with all the background info that is supposed to make your opinion the only right one. You just assume that others haven't done their own experimenting. Well, maybe we have and determined that there are better finishes.""


C'man, the reason the coatings industry is so broad is for the need of differing coatings. There is no "one fits all" coating. nor do i suggest my preferences are The only choices someone can make.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> It was used for all that time because it was easy, cheap, and fast. If you think it's equal to any other finish on Earth, so be it...not my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
""
Here we go again with all the background info that is supposed to make your opinion the only right one. You just assume that others haven't done their own experimenting. Well, maybe we have and determined that there are better finishes.""


C'man, the reason the coatings industry is so broad is for the need of differing coatings. There is no "one fits all" coating. nor do i suggest my preferences are The only choices someone can make.

As i even stated in the beginning with this post, personally i prefer bartop nitro more so than shellac, and also solvent acrylics. every coating has its place in the industry, whether i prefer them or not!

I don't like aqueous coatings or minwax stains or coatings either, but i realize that for the home owner and newbies, what i use is out of the question for most, unless they are wood finishers. And therefore i suggest their uses, as well as other easy to use and apply coatings or oils etc.. The last time i used BLO, or tung especially for a finish was when developing an aqueous tung product for a floor friend of mine. Past that, i haven't touched it for several years. It's just something i don't use unless copying an existing finish. 

As is the case with most finishes. If my preferences for films wont work, then i use what i have to. If a client wants or demands water/solvent/oil/urethane/epoxy/then so be it. but i see it as my duty to at least explain with as much detail as possible the pros and con's of each, so that a educated decision can be made as to whether they really want to use there choice or not. 

Now I'll go have that drink, lol


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## Sig (Jan 25, 2012)

Hello, you two - am I right to assume your opinions didn't clash for the first time? I'm glad the tension seems out of the discussion again and would think that different opinions are valid and have their reason, different experiences and preferences, as you say...
You both helped me a lot.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Sig said:


> Hello, you two - am I right to assume your opinions didn't clash for the first time? I'm glad the tension seems out of the discussion again and would think that different opinions are valid and have their reason, different experiences and preferences, as you say...
> You both helped me a lot.


Thanks Sig, hope your project turns out well. Nom matter what you use, lol:yes:


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