# Staining hard maple??



## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

Thoughts on staining hard maple tables? Best way to prep and any tips or tricks to help me out while staining with an oil base stain? Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

No stain.
Kidding. I don't like to use stain. But that's just me. 
Others here can help with that.


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## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

I feel the same way but has to be stained! Sucks but just trying hear others thoughts on it all! Thanks


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

bradk05 said:


> Thoughts on staining hard maple tables? Best way to prep and any tips or tricks to help me out while staining with an oil base stain? Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks


Actually, I'm pretty Much in agreement with Dominick on this one. the only direct wood staining on maple that looks good to me is if it is a figured maple, tiger/birds eye/flame/quilt/ raindrop/curly/burl/etc.. Non -figured maple is pretty bland in comparison and normally susceptible to blotching giving areas of darkness that to many is undesirable, especially those looking for consistent uniformity.

I looked at your pics and I'm assuming this is the type of tops your asking info about. Without first knowing your methods of finish applications and your application equipment, [spray/wipe/brush/etc., it would be to no real advantage to suggest what steps or things would work best.

So please get back with answers and such and your usual schedule you use over-all in your present processes ok? [ for example: hand sanding machine sanding/ what grits/type of finishing materials and stains now used/ methods of application and removal/ type of finish/ normal schedule for finishing/ etc.. ok?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

sorry, you posted while i was responding evidently, if it's a matter of you having to stain it, then it would still be necessary to know what your using ok?


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## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm using an oil based stain, red mahogany I believe is going to be the color match. I just like to Hear views on a general step by step method or procedure to achieve the darkest color in least amount of coats?
Also I will have it strip to bare raw wood and leveled and sanded nicely w 80?!
What grit do u recommend w a hard maple wood or this grain to sand with before 1st coat and then what steps or grit after stain?
Plan go put 2-3 coats of poly on the table as well? 
Any tips or tricks it words from the wise would be so much appreciated. Thanks again and loon forward to any and all responses. 
Brad


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

bradk05 said:


> I'm using an oil based stain, red mahogany I believe is going to be the color match. I just like to Hear views on a general step by step method or procedure to achieve the darkest color in least amount of coats?
> Also I will have it strip to bare raw wood and leveled and sanded nicely w 80?!
> What grit do u recommend w a hard maple wood or this grain to sand with before 1st coat and then what steps or grit after stain?
> Plan go put 2-3 coats of poly on the table as well?
> ...


80 grit is not even a choice, unless your surface is so bad and uneven that it would be necessary, then it should be planed instead of sanded if that is the case. finish grits would star out at a maximum of 120 and proceed to 150-180-220-320, etc., If your surface is already flat and smooth, start with 120-150, if not, then explain why please?

As to "oil" based stains, are you referring to minwax types or pigmented types like Sherwin Williams?

Personally i would go with water dyes for best penetration and least amount of color coats necessary to achieve the darkness. Also since it is water, i suggest you wet the top down before proceeding to your final grit so any grain raising can be smoothed out before staining. 

My schedule would be:

1) Sand to 220, not skipping any grits
2) apply my dye stain** 1 coat only unless more was absolutely 
needed.
3) Let dry overnight.
4) apply my poly coats following drying and sanding schedules listed 
on package.
5) let cure and use.

Dye stain formula:**

1 oz. potassium permanganate
1-1 1/2 oz. transtint red mahogany dye.
1qt. of distilled water.

more red M can be added if necessary for a redder look. 

Pot Perm. can be ordered from below link and transtints link below that.

CAUTION!! make sure you work your color out on wood scraps from the same top before applying to the project itself!! In doing so, give it the 3 coats your going for, so you can truly see what the finished product will look like ok?

You've been warned, lol.

http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/techinfo.html

Click on "chemicals at the top and search for" potassium permanganate"

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm

Scroll down to the color chart and choose red mahogany or any other color you want.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would do experimenting on the underside, or scraps if you have them. I would start with a sanding (with the grain) 150x-180x. Test for the need of a pre stain conditioner. Too much or too concentrated, will limit stain absorption. Too little, may not give desired results.
I would use an oil base stain, and Minwax will work, and is a Sherwin Williams product. An oil stain won't raise the grain,will give a longer work time than waterbaase, and less likely to show overlapping. Try on samples first.










 







.


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## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks for the reply to both comments. I'll prob use an oil base due to the mass amount of tables I have to do and that I'm most familiar w oil. 
Question though, what have u guys found or believe is best to apply the stain?
Leant free cloth
Brush
Pad,
I know there are many ways to apply and hey different outcomes buy I wanna semi transparent, so no marks or anything showing except alittle wood grain and color of stain. I know tht several woods take stain better then others. 
So with a hard maple what have u found best to apply the stain and how, againest grain to rub it in good then finish it out w rubs to go w the grain or just brush on thick w grain and rub off or then and leave sit? Thanks again


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

I would use an oil base stain, and Minwax will work, and is a Sherwin Williams product. An oil stain won't raise the grain,will give a longer work time than waterbaase, and less likely to show overlapping. Try on samples first.


LOL, buying a company out and saying it's "their" stain, is misleading. SW products are those which their chemist have formulated and produced and marketed. such as their pigmented wiping stains, which is what i was referring to, as opposed to mudwax dye/pigment series. 

Not that I don't think SW chemist are completely capable of making a like product or even better, But why spend the time and effort when your big enough to buy out any competitors and profit from them as opposed to competing with them? Just good business sense is all. 

Mudwax is such a basic product and marketing cost for their own product to compete for something like it, costly, it was nothing more than away to avoid the cost, and gain instant profitability.

SW is not concerned with how good the product is, their concerned with how much profit they can gain from it's continued use. which i can assure you if sales became unprofitable, they would drop it like a hot potato.

"OVERLAPPING" only happens when someone is ignorant of how it's properly used. Any one who gets overlaps with water dyes that show as streaks, don't know what there doing. That holds true for minwax or any other stain also. Water dye can be retarded with N-butanol, n-propanol, diacetone alcohol, or even butyl cellosolve in proportions of 5%, to give more than adequate time for application of even the largest surfaces. But is rarely necessary if you know how to properly apply it to begin with.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

bradk05 said:


> Thanks for the reply to both comments. I'll prob use an oil base due to the mass amount of tables I have to do and that I'm most familiar w oil.
> Question though, what have u guys found or believe is best to apply the stain?
> Leant free cloth
> Brush
> ...


Since you've stated your prefferences, i will leave it to those who do such to continue.


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## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

Well how would u apply this stain on this type of wood or say hard maple? To give if the deepest and most even spread look I suppose is what I'm asking?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

bradk05 said:


> Well how would u apply this stain on this type of wood or say hard maple? To give if the deepest and most even spread look I suppose is what I'm asking?


You wouldn't, if your concern is "uniformity" water dyes are not the way to go. they purposely by nature will show up every nuance of the wood, soft areas will go darker than light areas looking blotchy, for those who like all the character of the wood and like the enhancement of any and all natural anomalies, it's good.


For example.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Let me recommend you carefully read the directions on the label of your Minwax stain. Pay particular attention to the requirement that the excess stain be thoroughly wiped off after letting the stain set on the surface for 15-20 minutes. Do not be tempted to just paint on the stain and let it go. It will not dry properly and any finish applied over it will not dry properly either.

Maple is a hard wood and absorbs coloring very poorly. Oil based pigment stains like Minwax do not color maple very darkly. They also contain a small amount of varnish to adhere the pigment to the wood so applying more than one coat will not appreciably deepen the color. To get the deepest color do not sand above 150 grit. This gives more nooks and crannies for the pigment to lodge in.

My preference is to never use a pigment stain on maple. I much prefer using a water based dye stain.


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## bradk05 (Apr 15, 2012)

Thank u that's the answer I was looking for! 
Where abouts can I find this dye your talking about?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

bradk05 said:


> Thank u that's the answer I was looking for!
> Where abouts can I find this dye your talking about?


not sure if your asking me or Howie, i already gave you a link.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

chemmy said:


> You wouldn't, if your concern is "uniformity" water dyes are not the way to go. they purposely by nature will show up every nuance of the wood, soft areas will go darker than light areas looking blotchy, for those who like all the character of the wood and like the enhancement of any and all natural anomalies, it's good.
> 
> 
> For example.


 I have used water based dyes on maple a lot and it really depends on how you apply it as far as what look you get. If you flood on the stain you will get a blotch look like in chemmy's pine picture. (Blotchiness by the way is not always a bad thing. If I am doing an antiqued distressed look, blotchy is a great first layer) If I am doing maple with a dye stain (water based or alcohol based) and want no blotching, I always spray the stain on evenly but don't allow it to get wet enough to puddle. You have to experiment to get it right, if you apply it too dry you will get streaks but if done properly you will get a perfectly even color with no blotching.

I would suggest you do some samples and try different application techniques and keep them for references. That is what I have done over the years and am able to duplicate just about anything out there as a result. I also don't sand maple any finer than 180 grit unless I am using a water based stain. (Water stain will open the grain) You can burnish maple if you sand too fine and cause adhesion issues with your finish, especially if you don't thin the first coat enough.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> I have used water based dyes on maple a lot and it really depends on how you apply it as far as what look you get. If you flood on the stain you will get a blotch look like in chemmy's pine picture. (Blotchiness by the way is not always a bad thing. If I am doing an antiqued distressed look, blotchy is a great first layer) If I am doing maple with a dye stain (water based or alcohol based) and want no blotching, I always spray the stain on evenly but don't allow it to get wet enough to puddle. You have to experiment to get it right, if you apply it too dry you will get streaks but if done properly you will get a perfectly even color with no blotching.
> 
> I would suggest you do some samples and try different application techniques and keep them for references. That is what I have done over the years and am able to duplicate just about anything out there as a result. I also don't sand maple any finer than 180 grit unless I am using a water based stain. (Water stain will open the grain) You can burnish maple if you sand too fine and cause adhesion issues with your finish, especially if you don't thin the first coat enough.


Spot on again Rick, was my dad teaching you on the side? LOL.

I usually sand to 320 or finer on maple that will recieve water dye [120 degrees] , i also use diacetone alcohol to open the wood up for better penetration, and i normally use a 5% to 95% first coat [shellac/vinly/lacquer/etc.] to penetrate the wood also, if it's still troublesome, i then add an amine to tend to it. Wetting the wood is imperative. 

Using the water or fast dries as a uniforming or bare wood toner is tricky, i always apply with a cone pattern and not a fan, lot of air little dye, but once perfected much better than any pigment toner methods, although at times on certain jobs they are still necessary.


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