# Finishing over Transtint Dye



## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm working on a project where I needed to apply some Transtint dye to get the color I wanted. I wiped in a wash coat of shellac to prevent botching, then applied three coats of Transtint to get the color I wanted. When I wiped on the topcoat finish of General Finishes Woodturners Finish, some of the dye came off on the rag. In doing so, it made the overall color a little lighter. I assume there's some dye residue on the surface that's coming off when I wipe on the topcoat. If I spray the first coat to prevent the dye from coming off, is it possible I could have adhesion problems if the dye that's coming off is just sitting on the surface?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Part of the problem was the wash coat of shellac. It sealed the wood to where the dye couldn't penetrate as well. What you can do for here though is add some of the transtint dye to the finish you are using for the next coat. You just have to be very careful with between the coats sanding after you do this not to sand through that tinted layer.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

You've piqued my curiosity. The wood in question is cherry and it blotched badly on the test piece when I applied the dye directly. That's why I did the coat of shellac, but it was just a splash - I sprayed a quick coat from a rattle can of Zinsser Seal Coat while the piece was spinning on the lathe, then quickly wiped it off. It definitely resolved the blush problem, but I was wondering...... As I used a rag to apply the alcohol based dye to the spinning piece, wasn't I dissolving the shellac anyway? 

In summary - 

Should I have used something other than shellac to eliminate the blotching?

Did the dye dissolve the shellac?

Would spraying the top coat cause potential adhesion problems if some of the dye is just on the surface? (IE Do I need to remove the surface dye before top coating?)


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

How are you applying the dye? Dyes are better sprayed at low pressure. Normally you can stain with a dye without a conditioner and never have any problems with blotch. I worked for a company one time that did all the millwork for an airport terminal where there is no telling how many hundred sheets of cherry plywood we used. All of it was stained with Mohawk cherry NGR stain and none of it went blotchy. I've used a lot of dyes before but I've never actually used the transtint brand dye though. If you spray the dye on and it blotches I think I would find a better dye stain. You can also get the dyes in powder form to avoid the hasmat fees and mix it with alcohol you can get locally. 

Yes you could have wiped off the transtint with the finish. Transtint dye is water soluble and the water in the General Finish could have lifted some of the dye. 

There is a lot of products you can use for wood conditioner and shellac is one that is very commonly used. I haven't personally used it. I use a 50/50 solution of linseed oil and mineral spirits. I also have some of the Charles Neil blotch control I need to try but haven't gotten around to it. A lot of folks here praise the stuff. 

With a dye spraying the finish on shouldn't cause an adhesion problem. If there is any of it loose it should float up into the finish. You might see some color when sanding the first coat of sealer however you shouldn't sand very much on the first coat anyway. A lot of times when I'm finishing I'm trying to match another color. I do my best to mix an oil stain to match but sometimes I get the color off. This normally shows up when I put the first coat of sealer on. What I do is sand the sealer and then spray a dye on to adjust the color and then put another coat of sealer on. I've never experienced any adhesion problems putting dye between the layers of finish. 

From where you are there is no reason you can't add some transtint to the general finish you are using and apply another coat. That may add enough color to make up for what you wiped off.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I applied the dye using a rag while the wood spun on the lathe. I'd use the word "liberal" to describe my application method. I basically tried to keep the whole thing wet as I applied the dye. Each time the dye dried, I applied more until the piece stopped getting darker. 

I tint the General Finishes Woodturner's finish as a matter of course to warm it up a little. If it looks like I'm not getting the color I want, I'll tint it up a little darker.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> I applied the dye using a rag while the wood spun on the lathe. I'd use the word "liberal" to describe my application method. I basically tried to keep the whole thing wet as I applied the dye. Each time the dye dried, I applied more until the piece stopped getting darker.
> 
> I tint the General Finishes Woodturner's finish as a matter of course to warm it up a little. If it looks like I'm not getting the color I want, I'll tint it up a little darker.


Like to live dangerous huh. Applying the dye with a rag may have caused the blotch or perhaps it wasn't sanded enough. Turnings tend to get it more because of all the end grain. 

How much darker are you needing to go with it? Very much dye and the finish may start looking painted.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Quickstep said:


> When I wiped on the topcoat finish of General Finishes Woodturners Finish, some of the dye came off on the rag. In doing so, it made the overall color a little lighter. I assume there's some dye residue on the surface that's coming off when I wipe on the topcoat. If I spray the first coat to prevent the dye from coming off, is it possible I could have adhesion problems if the dye that's coming off is just sitting on the surface?


Did you scuff sand the first coat of shellac? 

You probably would have been better off making your dye stain darker rather than trying to apply 3 coats to get it darker. The wood will only absorb so much due to the coat of shellac. Also, instead of using alcohol, make a dye stain using acetone as it dries alot quicker and will rewet itself better than alcohol.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Like to live dangerous huh. Applying the dye with a rag may have caused the blotch or perhaps it wasn't sanded enough. Turnings tend to get it more because of all the end grain.
> 
> How much darker are you needing to go with it? Very much dye and the finish may start looking painted.



It was sanded to 220 with the grain. The piece is turned to a taper which exposes even more end grain. It's cherry that I'm trying to make look like dark aged cherry. My preference would be just to wait, but the piece of wood was fairly light to begin with and I only have about a month to complete and deliver this. 

I just put on two coats of tinted General Finishes Woodturner's finish and it's looking pretty good. A couple more coats of tinted finish and some sunlight and I might be OK.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> It was sanded to 220 with the grain. The piece is turned to a taper which exposes even more end grain. It's cherry that I'm trying to make look like dark aged cherry. My preference would be just to wait, but the piece of wood was fairly light to begin with and I only have about a month to complete and deliver this.
> 
> I just put on two coats of tinted General Finishes Woodturner's finish and it's looking pretty good. A couple more coats of tinted finish and some sunlight and I might be OK.


Next time when you make a turning try wetting the wood and raise the grain when changing to a finer paper. The fibers of the wood tend to mash down when you sand and raising the grain helps cut it off when you go to a finer grit.


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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

I had the same problem with Transtint and a shellac finish on the lathe. Next time I need to dye a turning I'll use a spray finish. No wiping.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

At this point, the only was you will get a darker finish, especially on hard wood after shellac is applied, is to spray apply your dye stain and then a spray applied sealer/topcoat.


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

FWIW I've had good luck adding Transtint to shellac, and spraying several coats until I get the amount of color I want. I then spray a few coats of lacquer as a top coat. No problems with blotching, bleeding, rubbing off, or anything else. I haven't done it with cherry, though.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

jdonhowe said:


> FWIW I've had good luck adding Transtint to shellac, and spraying several coats until I get the amount of color I want. I then spray a few coats of lacquer as a top coat. No problems with blotching, bleeding, rubbing off, or anything else. I haven't done it with cherry, though.


You could also add transtint to lacquer.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You could also add transtint to lacquer.


 
I've also added TransTint to water based finishes. I really like the General Finishes Woodturner's Finish for applying on the lathe, but the clear is somewhere between a little pinkish on light woods and a little sterile on others. A couple of drops of Transtint amber warms it right up.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

The only problem with tinting clears in this situation is if your going for a dark color, you can end up making the piece look like its "painted out". Most of the time its better to put a dark color under your clears for depth.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> I've also added TransTint to water based finishes. I really like the General Finishes Woodturner's Finish for applying on the lathe, but the clear is somewhere between a little pinkish on light woods and a little sterile on others. A couple of drops of Transtint amber warms it right up.


I bet you could add transtint to a beer to make folks think it's Coca Cola. :laughing:


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I bet you could add transtint to a beer to make folks think it's Coca Cola. :laughing:


I couldn't..... I could never get a good color match! 😄


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Quickstep said:


> I couldn't..... I could never get a good color match! 😄


1 part red
3 parts yellow
.75 grams black. 
:laughing:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> 1 part red
> 3 parts yellow
> .75 grams black.
> :laughing:


Sneaky, You've been doing it already.


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## woodrelief (Oct 26, 2016)

I see this is an older post but I'm dealing with stains/dyes for the first time, making a fireplace mantel out of maple. Wish I saw this post earlier as I'm trying to stain the maple fairly dark, and it has stopped the show!
Can anyone recommend some decent spray equipment, for once-in-a-while users?

Using scrap I brushed on Zinsser SealCoat to prevent blotchiness, and it did a better job at a 2lb cut, than a wood conditioner used previously. Highly concencentrated Transtint dyes actually went dark over the SealCoat, and I thought I was golden until brushing on another SealCoat to seal the dye - lifted the dye instead. Will try the aerosol SealCoat product.

I'm also trying General Finishers Gel Stain alone over the SealCoat - no dye underneath- to see if I can get it dark enough- doubtful. 
I may wind up getting the spray gear and tint the shellac with the Transtint as mentioned above, then top coat with clear laquer. 
This was supposed to be a simple project- build a mantel in order to do a hi-relief carving on it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodrelief said:


> I see this is an older post but I'm dealing with stains/dyes for the first time, making a fireplace mantel out of maple. Wish I saw this post earlier as I'm trying to stain the maple fairly dark, and it has stopped the show!
> Can anyone recommend some decent spray equipment, for once-in-a-while users?
> 
> Using scrap I brushed on Zinsser SealCoat to prevent blotchiness, and it did a better job at a 2lb cut, than a wood conditioner used previously. Highly concencentrated Transtint dyes actually went dark over the SealCoat, and I thought I was golden until brushing on another SealCoat to seal the dye - lifted the dye instead. Will try the aerosol SealCoat product.
> ...


As far as sprayers I use Harbor Freight's #97855 sprayer. The gun works well for wood finishes, just not automotive paint especially metallic base coats. 

Some dye stains can be very superficial and all of them are prone to fading. I think you would be better off staining with an oil stain. For a dye I use Ultra Penetrating Stain from Mohawk Finishing Products. It's an alcohol based dye stain more similar to ink so it doesn't rub off so easy. I use it more like a toner than part of the finishing process. Most projects I never use a dye at all. Anyway when I need to remove some dye I wash the wood with alcohol and that is contained in shellac also so working shellac by hand you will remove some dye. Shellac is a product best off sprayed.


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