# Large Diameter Wood Taps & Dies



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Anyone have any suggestions for 2-3" wood taps and dies? I keep turning up duds. I'm trying to copy something built 200 yrs ago and I have no idea how to go about making wood screws so large... 

If they could do it back then surely it can be done now, right? I've come across how to make dies in any size but they all require starting with the appropriate tap first...

I'm guessing it could be done on a lathe but I don't have a clue how. 

Id preffer to find at least an appropriate tap. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!

...build n burn - live n learn...


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## dat (Nov 11, 2010)

I didn't find and taps and dies, but this looked intresting, cutting threads on a lathe http://www.opcaaw.com/InfoPages/Thread%20Chasing%20Handout.pdf


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

That's interesting, dat. Thanks. I really hope to find a tap and maybe even a die too but I may have to go the lathe route  

Anyone done this on the lathe?


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

I've got an ancient pair of the lathe threading tools shown on that link, but I never had the hand-eye coordination to get it to work, even at slow speed.
Beall makes a nifty but expensive thread cutter, I don't remember what sizes are available though. 
Somewhere out there on the internet are plans for making your own from a chunk of wood and a piece of metal.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

joesbucketorust said:


> I've got an ancient pair of the lathe threading tools shown on that link, but I never had the hand-eye coordination to get it to work, even at slow speed.
> Beall makes a nifty but expensive thread cutter, I don't remember what sizes are available though.
> Somewhere out there on the internet are plans for making your own from a chunk of wood and a piece of metal.


Joe, I've found plenty of references / plans for making the die but none for making the tap. I think I could manage if I started with a section of threaded stock but finding that or getting there is the problem.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Tom, Here's a link for a German company making just what you need with a tap and die set sized up to 2.5".
http://www.fine-tools.com/gewind.htm#zield12

Of course, at the price of 1126 Euro it will probably cost you 6 months worth of overtime:laughing:


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## Gary Beasley (Jan 21, 2009)

firemedic said:


> Joe, I've found plenty of references / plans for making the die but none for making the tap. I think I could manage if I started with a section of threaded stock but finding that or getting there is the problem.


Ever seen a spiraling cutter? Sorby has a large and a small one, I've got a small one. Set the right angle with the right cutter wheel and it might do it. 
Look for the spiraling tool on the list of videos here if you want to see it. http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/
My experience is you need a close grain wood, fairly hard, to hold the detail. I find poplar and pine to chip out pretty bad when spiraling.
They also have thread cutting tools, that's on the video list too, I've just never seen or used anything like that.


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

What secret project needs 2-3" threaded parts? 

Woodcraft has a tap and die set up to 1-1/2"


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Brink said:


> What secret project needs 2-3" threaded parts?
> 
> Woodcraft has a tap and die set up to 1-1/2"


I think they are out of stock until mid June.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Tom, 

Roy Underhill did a show a few years ago on building "thread boxes". That looked intreguing to me.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

Have you tried doing a search in google-_BOOKS_ (not google)? 

Not sure if this is what you want, but there's a ton of hits on "wood tap"


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

In metal, all it takes is a lathe with a lead screw to drive the tool holder along the bed. Pardon me on the terminology, It's been over 35 years since I touched a metal lathe and turned a thread.

On a wood lathe (I've never used one.) I think that if the tool rest is at an angle to the lathe bed, and the cutting tool has multiple teeth like a comb it might be easier than you think. Make the leading teeth shorter than the following teeth and the tool should guide itself into the stock. 

If I remember correctly, the points of the cutter should be 60°, the distance between the points should be 1/TPI or threads per inch and the depth of the full cutter is half 1/TPI times square root of three. (TPI is threads per inch)

Anyway it would take multiple passes to get the threads that you want. I think that to cut the inside threads you would need a symmetrical cutter.

I'm sitting here after a couple of hours at the machine, two drinks and net gain/loss was zero. So take the above with a bit of vodka and a twist of lemon.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

I have a big metal lathe to cut threads, and mill to cut the slots - but looking at my plow planes I see they are all slightly different - different TPI and different shape. The troublesome part is the shape of the threads - it is not the american standard 60 degree you see on metal, and yet it's not an acme thread either - it would take some playing with to figure out how to grind the bit. Then of course there is the trouble of finding a piece of metal round stock 3" thick to work with. But I'm sure if you've got a decent machinist near you it could be done cheaply if you show him a 3/4" version and ask him to go big.
I'm sure with a sharp enough cutter one could just mount a piece of wood in the metal lathe and cut metal-like threads, but the sharp edges would be very brittle and be prone to breaking. 

Another tool out there attaches to the lathe - I think I saw it mentioned in a thread here a while back in the woodturning section. It too is not cheap, but it's only half a leg instead of an arm and leg. It's a Baxter threadmaster. 
http://bestwoodtools.stores.yahoo.net/bathma.html


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

You've all given me some good insight on the topic and for that I say thank you very much!

Yesterday on shift was crazy and today in the shop was hectic too. But I will go back and weigh each suggestion and reply to each of you. By hook or by crook I will be producing 3" wooden screws before long.

For those questioning why I want/need them... I'm working on recreating a 175-200 yr old bench I had the pleasure of viewing. I hope to get a private viewing from the owner once it's no longer on exhibit to study it further. When I do I will certainly share some pictures. 

It's truly remarkable.

Thanks! ~tom


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

*solution*

As an update I ended up buying a 1-1/2" tap and die set as well as a nice stick of 7/4" persimmon from Mike on wood barter to make my screws and nuts for some traditional bench vises. I really wanted larger screws but I couldn't wait any longer to get the ball rolling. I'm going nuts right now because the tap & die came in over a week ago and the persimmon has been in for about 5 days but I haven't managed to get to the shop with me being in MS for class.

HOPEFULLY, I'll get started with a few tests tomorrow with poplar to see how the tap and die perform. I'll let ya'll know how it goes and get some pictures up.

ps. I knew I had seen the solution to what I wanted to do before and had come up with a few reasonable ideas but it wasn't until the other day while re-reading one of Underhill's books that I came across his how-to on building screws as large as 16" in diameter for agricultural use presses!:wallbash:! and it jogged my memory. So I intend to still go bigger with some future vises but I'm going to give the 1-1/2" screws a shot first.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

:smile: mahogany screw and nut!

That was a test run... Persimmon to come soon.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

That's sweet:thumbsup: I can't wait to see the one you make from persimmon and the vise/bench that go with it.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Man that looks good Tom!


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

That is just cool!

I recall looking at, and for, threading devices (rather heavily, too) a year or so ago when I was preparing to make my moxon vise. I wanted to go all out with threaded maple screws or something madhat like that. I got a little disheartened at the time due to cashflow and ended up slapping it (the moxon) together with 5/8" all-thread and nuts (worked great!).

I keep threatening to make another moxon-/-bench-on-a-bench soon so thanks for rekindling the wood screw idea. Just may go that route.

p.s. Glad you updated. Thanks


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the finished piece is way kool*

Do you have any step by step photos? Also a shot of the tools themselves would be great! Thanks, bill


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## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

Nice threading there. I want to see the vise you produce. It's gonna' be awesome.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks! I've hit a snag with it. I made that dowel using hand tools... No lathe! So despite it being darn close I have a few spots where the screw doesn't glide through the nut as easily as I'd like. My associate furniture builder and lathe extraordinare is currently in France touring furniture shops (must be nice) so I may have to wait two weeks until his return to have my cylinders turned to the tolerances I'm looking for. 

I started on a sort of a tenon cutter today that I can feed octagonal stock into and get dowel out the other side (it's too big to ram it through a dowel plate) but I think I may be spinning my wheels with that too. 

Any which way, in regards to ya'lls comments I did NOT take any pictures of the process but it's really simple. The tools look like giant metal taps and dies. I was so in "the zone" I never thought to stop and take pictures. I will next go round and I'll take some pictures of the tools too.

Stay tuned...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*and what brand of tool?*

http://www.garrettwade.com/complete-tap-die-set-1-2-in/p/98N11.01/

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/manualwoodthreader1-126tpi.aspx

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/prod...3HTUOXVC166JUUT&pf_id=99.500.12&dept_id=12827

http://www.fine-tools.com/gewind.htm

:blink: bill

How's about a review?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

:smile:

Ordered it from Highland. It came with two taps, one for finishing a stop cut, and a die. I'm very happy with them! I have to admit I didn't try them straight out of the box, I spent a bit of time sharpening them first as I could tell they would need it. I'll go more in depth after I take Picts from the next go round.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*or just buy this one....*

:smile: http://lakeerietoolworks.com/shop/category_2/Wood-Vise-Screw-Kits.html?shop_param=cid=&


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Looking good. Tuning in to see where you go with this...


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Here are some action shots of Brad working on the Vise for his first bench. He's been helping me at the shop now and then but he's officially an apprentice now :smile: so he's getting his own bench... He's gonna have a nice vice! That screw is poplar, still in the R&D phase...


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

It looks as thought he's enjoying that at least half as much as you probably are.


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

Question Tom-

After having seen them, sharpening them, and using them do you think duplicating the taps or making your own is a possibility? For other sizes etc?



p.s. Saw the updated Jean Bucnel facebook page. You'ns got it goin' on!


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

autre said:


> Question Tom-
> 
> After having seen them, sharpening them, and using them do you think duplicating the taps or making your own is a possibility? For other sizes etc?
> 
> p.s. Saw the updated Jean Bucnel facebook page. You'ns got it goin' on!


Making them is ABSOLUTELY an option... and as my above post implies it's planned! Underhill has a very good write-up on it in one of his books but I think I'll take a different approach than he does for the tap? I think I'll hand cut the threads on a dowel then slot, insert iron cutters and shape the the same as the threads... I think that's much easier than making an all steel tap.

EDIT:
ps. It's "Becnel" :smile: and THANKS!


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks-
And whoops-
Forgot about the Underhill reference and only read the most recent post. Got ahead of myself.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

He's pretty stoked about it :smile:

Still had quite a bit of work left to go.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Looking good. You need a set of those pegs of different sizes to stick in the other side to keep it from racking...

Watching what you guys do here. I really want to build a workbench but can't afford a vise. This might be a solution.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Yeah, it racks pretty easy. There will be a second nut and rod guide added under the bench which will greatly reduce the racking and yeah, a stepped block would help a lot too.

I'm thinking I'll probably continue with my original plan for my new bench and go with a twin screw despite leg vises looking better and better to me. The the tail vice is going to be a fun build!


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## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

Oh man, you've got an apprentice. That's awesome. He looks like he's having a great time. He's gonna learn a lot under your wing.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Chaincarver Steve said:


> Oh man, you've got an apprentice. That's awesome. He looks like he's having a great time. He's gonna learn a lot under your wing.


He's got the bug... I think he's going to make a great furniture builder. Still needs continual direction but that's to be expected given he's only done about 150 hrs so far. I mentioned a while back and he was unable to do much time since then but its becoming more regular at one day a week right now. He stays at a half-way house of sorts a few blocks away but works a regular job. 

He's only learning hand tools at this time and he's thrilled by em. "here's a board, joint it and plane it then bring it back"... 15 min later it's back jointed and planed! :smile: He's giving my planes a major workout, time to start looking for some for him. Got a few chisels and a square for him so far and a BENCH AND VISE! He'll start doing furniture repairs soon and go from there.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I left Brad to it while I worked on another project and he managed to get some much needed improvements done on his vise today. It racks less that my iron vise screw! He's done a good job on problem solving through the build. He's thrilled with it and I'm thrilled he is more able to work independently... Here are the pics of the improvements.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

That's a great idea.:thumbsup: I couldn't quite tell from the picture, but I assume the block on the back is threaded?

Also, how long is the screw?


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Very nice progress!!

One thing I may mention...before all threads were standardized, a craftsman may make his screw thread dimensions different for each project; and if he made the tap first, cut the die to whatever dimension to match it. Just as long as they screwed together with a nice sliding fit.

Fantastic job.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

trc65 said:


> That's a great idea.:thumbsup: I couldn't quite tell from the picture, but I assume the block on the back is threaded?
> 
> Also, how long is the screw?


Yes, the block on the back is threaded. It wouldn't really need to be as a simple hole would have been sufficient to alight the screw. The problem with that though would be a flat surface wearing against the screw. 

The screw is 4' long :smile: way overkill!




H. A. S. said:


> Very nice progress!!
> 
> One thing I may mention...before all threads were standardized, a craftsman may make his screw thread dimensions different for each project; and if he made the tap first, cut the die to whatever dimension to match it. Just as long as they screwed together with a nice sliding fit.
> Fantastic job.


Exactly right. Different pitches are more appropriate to different jobs. The screw is a ramp wrapped around a circle, the shallower the ramp the greater the leverage. Wine and cider presses require greater leverage and hence have greater pitch where as a vise would benefit from a slightly lower pitch that will maintain leverage while also not taking a week to unscrew. The pitch on this vise is a bit higher than I would like for that very reason. 

In general the pitch of a wooden screw should be 1/12-1/9 the diameter of the screw. Any lower and you lose mechanical advantage, any higher and your threads become too weak.

Also you would use the tap to make the screw box (die) and ensure a good fit.

For anyone wanting more information on that I'd suggest "The Woodwright's Workbook" by Underhill as a good place to start.

Edit: content


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Exactly right. Different pitches are more appropriate to different jobs. The screw is a ramp wrapped around a circle, the shallower the ramp the greater the leverage. Wine and cider presses require greater leverage and hence have greater pitch where as a vise would benefit from a slightly lower pitch that will maintain leverage while also not taking a week to unscrew. The pitch on this vise is a bit higher than I would like for that very reason.
> 
> In general the pitch of a wooden screw should be 1/12-1/9 the diameter of the screw. Any lower and you lose mechanical advantage, any higher and your threads become too weak.
> 
> ...


In another five - ten years, Tom, you'll be well, _well_ on his heels!


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Works a lot better with the captive nut! It's hard to tell in the picture but it slightly recessed below the surface.


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## Chiaroscuro (Sep 2, 2017)

*Smaller diameter taps*

I used a 1 inch tap and thread kit from one of the woodworking stores, I don't remember which one, to make the threaded oak rods for my moxon vise. It has worked very well so far. I would have loved a larger diameter, but I had the kit (bought it to thread the rod for my other vise so I could put on wood caps instead of plastic).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/ovo6hin.jpg


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## Gary Beasley (Jan 21, 2009)

Is persimmon a dense hard wood when cured? I haven't heard of this use before. Bradford pear is another wood I would be apt to use for a detail cut like that, it cures dense and very hard and fine grained.


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