# 1st Timer with a dining table plan...



## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Hello! I'm handy, but a complete carpentry noob (I own a drill, circular saw and a cheap set of chisels). Nevertheless, I'd like to build a modern farmhouse table for my wife's birthday. Can anyone review my proof-of-concept? See below. I'm concerned about wobble and the table falling apart in general...


The table would be 96" length x 48" width x 30.75" height.
I was thinking 1.75" x 4" maple, cherry, or oak boards joined at the sides with nothing but glue (scary).
The skirt would be 2.75" x 4" boards.
The breadboards would be mortise and tenon (see photo).
I would alternate the grain of each board.
I'm planning on metal legs (3/8" steel) fabricated through Etsy (see photo).

Is glue enough to keep the top together? Should I add pocket screws or braces along the skirt? What about bowing/cupping - would screws/braces hurt the wood when it expands/contracts? 

Thanks so much for your input - I know it's too big an undertaking for a beginner, but I think I can...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think you will have trouble with the legs wobbling. I believe there isn't enough metal in the frame. My thinking is it needs at least some corner blocks at the top. The next problem is you will need to elongate the holes where it mounts to the top. The wood on the top needs to be allowed to shrink or it will split. Where the breadboard end mounts to the tenon you will need to elongate the hole in the tenon where the screws or dowels pass through. The main part of the top will shrink and the board on the end won't shrink in length.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

First off,48" is very wide for a table.You need nothing but glue to glue the top up and long as you have good tight joints.Don't know why your using such heavy boards for the apron.
How will you be attaching the apron on the ends?You don't want to restrict the movement of the top.You also have to attach the BB ends so they don't restrict the wood movement .that will apply to the legs also as they are going cross grain.
I glue the BB in the middle.Cut some slots in the tenon that correspond with some holes drilled in the mortise for dowels.This keeps the end in tight while allowing for wood movement.Yuo can screw the end aprons on from below but they need to be in slots.Again,to allow for wood movement.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Steve:Looks like we were typing at the same time.You now the saying"Great minds think alike"


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Steve, Mako1 - thanks for the replies, lots to think about! I have some follow-up q's if you're still around:


I hadn't thought about dowels through the bottom of the BB, was planning on gluing the entire thing - but I see your point about only gluing the middle to allow movement. I'll see if I can find a photo or tutorial on the dowels/screws through the bottom.

Any idea on how I could mount the legs to allow wood expansion? I totally missed that - thanks for bringing it up!

To avoid movement, would I be better off paying extra for qtrd oak and using less advanced techniques, or should I save my money?

My wife likes the appearance of thick boards, hence the thicker apron. Do you have any alternative suggestions? The BB is there just to hide the fact that the interior boards are thinner.

I'll have the welder add another 2 rows of tabs on either side of the leg to reduce wobble.

Thanks again,
Emery


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Oh no, you never glue a breadboard end on. That would prevent the top from shrinking and would cause the top to split. 

The mounting holes in the metal, if you would elongate the holes making about a 1/2" long slot and screw it to the top with pan head screws it would allow for wood movement. You tighten the screws down enough it doesn't rattle but leave it loose enough the screw would move with the wood. 

It doesn't matter what kind of solid wood you use for the top, all wood shrinks over time. I've worked on antique tables with breadboard ends that the breadboard end stuck out 1/4" on each side because the middle shrank. 

An apron on a table is put on to prevent warpage. If your top has sufficient thickness it is possible you may not need an apron. Normally a table top is made from 3/4" wood. 

About the steel legs, you might put your foot on bottom of the leg and see if you can wiggle it around. It appears to be made out of 1/4" steel and I believe the metal will bend on you. I think it needs more steel but it's difficult to say what you could do to it and keep the look you want.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

"I hadn't thought about dowels through the bottom of the BB, was planning on gluing the entire thing - but I see your point about only gluing the middle to allow movement. I'll see if I can find a photo or tutorial on the dowels/screws through the bottom."

Put your bb end in place so it is tight.Then you can drill a couple holes thru the mortise and tenon.One towards each end for the size dowels you want to use.Now remove the BB and elongate the holes in the tenon with a file or router.This way everything lines up.
For your apron on the ends just make some elongated holes in the apron the run your screws thru.
I usually make an oversize slot a 1/4" deep with a router and then a slot in the middle of this the rest of the way thru for the screw size.This allows me to use a washer on the screw and have them countersunk.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks Steve, Mako1 for the excellent tips. 

Steve, the steel would be 3/8" thick, and I'll have the welder make slots instead of holes for pan-head screws - good call.

Mako1, you lost me towards the end RE the apron. Are you talking about connecting the two 2.75" thick long boards to the 1.75" inner boards or to the BB? I thought I could just glue the apron to the inner boards, and M&T into the BB. Do I have that wrong?

-Emery


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## nbo10 (Jan 26, 2011)

I would suggest making a full size mock up from cardboard, and put it into the living space. This is to check the size and the space.

I recently made a similar table that was 8'x3'. I measured everything out in the dining room and it would fit. After glueing up the top it just seemed too big. I decided to cut it down to 6'x3'. It fits in the dining room much better. Even though I measured everything out before hand, it wasn't until I saw the size of the table that I realized it was too big.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

8x4 is a full sheet of plywood...do you really want that big of a table??


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Heheh - you just reminded me of every holiday when I was younger and my extended family came to dinner at our house - I'd carry in the full sheet of plywood from the garage with my dad, and we'd sit around that bendy makeshift table and have a delicious Thanksgiving dinner...

My wife and I are the oldest of our generation and expect to carry on the traditional dinners, only without that bendy plywood table-top 

Our current table is 5x5 and we just extended our dining rm - 4x8 should be perfect to fit all our crazy aunts/uncles!


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Calipoop said:


> Thanks Steve, Mako1 for the excellent tips.
> 
> Steve, the steel would be 3/8" thick, and I'll have the welder make slots instead of holes for pan-head screws - good call.
> 
> ...


You have it right.I was talking about screwing the apron to the main table top boards inset from the BB end.You still have to have slots for the screws to allow for cross grain wood movement.I cut a wider slot for the screw heads and washer to recess into and then a narrower slot inside of that one for the screw shaft.


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

Calipoop ; "Hello! I'm handy, but a complete carpentry nooby I own a drill, circular saw and a cheap set of chisels"

Hi I see you made over here from the other site.
Here's my opinion and don't take offense.
I'm new at furniture making and I have way more equipment than you (still not enough) and I've built a dining table.
Chiseling though mortises or in your case breadboards can be incredibly time consuming to a rookie (me anyways) how soon is your wife's birthday?)
I would hate to see you get in too deep and throw in the towel.
Using 1.75" x only 4" wide I would look for quarter sawn wood or as near to it as you can ( grain running at a right angle to the thickness) for less chance of warping.
Then forget the breadboards , but be sure to seal the bottom of the table as well as the top.
That thick of a top ..I dunno do you really need an apron.
Legs would need diagonal bracing for that HEAVY top.
Maybe I'm all wet here but I think that would save you a lot of time and frustration.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

That's a valid point. 32 sq ft 1.75 inches thick is going to be really heavy.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

No offense taken! Looking for all the input I can get. 

Wife's bday is in April - so I have some time. That breadboard _is_ a bit scary to me. I would like to avoid it, but she and I both like the look of thicker block of wood (2.75"). 

Is there a way to make the table lighter, but still give the appearance of thicker boards along the apron? I assumed 3/4" thick boards wouldn't be strong enough at the middle of the table to avoid sagging. Is that wrong?

You wrote "Using 1.75" x only 4" wide I would look for quarter sawn wood..." Is 4" wide too narrow? I'm not locked into that, but I was under the impression that the wider the board, the more chance of cupping.

What size boards would you recommend for the large 4'x8' dimensions? I'm really not tied to any part of the design besides the metal legs, and the appearance (along the skirt) of thick boards.

Thanks!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

4" to 6" wide boards would be a good size material for the top. Leave them long until after you get them glued together. That way you can set up a straight edge and make a nice clean cut with a circular saw. When you lay out the wood to glue up watch the grain of the wood how it flows from one board to the next and arrange them as best you can so it has the appearance of single 48" wide board.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You might get away with those 3/8 legs but you might want to have them fabricated local with a flat plate for mounting. As far as the 8/4 top. Heavy it will be. Breadboard is an option but not necessary if done correctly. You will need titebondII. Because of its size probably best made in two parts sanded at local shop unless they are capable of sanding 48" widths. 4" alternated should be the max.

8/4 tops are a majority of our work up to 60" wide.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Rebelwork, really happy to hear you specialize in 8/4 tops, and that my plans might work. After seeing your post/photo, I think I'm going to forget the breadboard and go with just the single thickness 8/4 in the single direction. The breadboard/M&T seems too daunting and time-consuming for me right now. I can always add it later after I've developed some skills! 

I'll definitely add a flat plate to the legs. Updated drawings below...

Found a good deal on Ash, I'll probably pick up the boards in the next week, and I'm sure I'll be back with questions/updates.

Thanks all!


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I built a table out of hard maple. It was 39 x 65 inches with a finished thickness of 1 5/8".

First of all it was bigger than anything I had to work on.  That made it difficult to glue up.

Then it was so heavy, it took two people (me and my wife) to move it.

Hopefully,never again. I need to pick my battles better.

It did turn out nice and the client loves it. :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Personally I don't care for the breadboard ends. They tend to create more problems than they help. They either come loose or the top shrinks to the point to where the breadboard ends stick out on each side of the top. If you finish the underside of a table top it should do very well.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

The metal leg fabricator says the machine he uses to cut slots is down. He says he would oversize the holes and I'd use a smaller width screw with large washer. Does that sound ok? Any red flags?

He's planning on drilling 3/8" holes. I feel like maybe that's too small - should I tell him 1/2"? Then I'd probably use #14 (1/4") screws, which presumably would allow 1/8" breathing room on either side of the screw...

By the way, I'm using 4" wide alder and the table will live in Los Angeles - in case that helps determine potential wood expansion/contraction.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

For anyone looking for wood movement resources, I found these two links helpful: 

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/6094/Survey_Moisture_ocr.pdf

http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/223-64-WoodMovement.pdf

Based on the data, I approximated that the 20" span of boards between the farther screws (4" wide x5) will at worst case only move a total 1/10". 

Does that make sense, or is my math off? I used Ponderosa Pine since it's moisture content was similar to Red Alder. If I'm right, then the welder's 3/8" holes should be fine with 1/4" screws, allowing 1/8" wood movement.

Since it's winter now, I'd probably screw to allow expansion, rather than contraction.

Update: this online calculator helped too, and confirms my hand-calc of 1/10":
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You can always oversize a washer to compensate for the larger hole...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Calipoop said:


> For anyone looking for wood movement resources, I found these two links helpful:
> 
> http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/6094/Survey_Moisture_ocr.pdf
> 
> ...


The data you got was flawed. A 20" top may shrink 1/10" within the first year but in 30 to 40 years can shrink as much as 1/4". A lot depends on how dry the wood is to begin with. You never know when it will shrink either. I moved a 100 year old oak table from Illinois to the Dallas area and the difference in climate was enough to make about 3 1/16" wide cracks in the table. This shrinkage occurred within 4 months of the move. The manufacturer didn't allow for shrinkage and firmly screwed the skirt to the top.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

OK, thanks for the input Rebelwork/Steve. I can tell the welder to increase the holes to 1/2"... That seems pretty huge through - instead of larger holes, should I use thinner screws? What size screw would you guys recommend based on the photo layout above? Would #10 be meaty enough?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

As heavy as the table will be you probably should use a #12 screw. The width of the screw could be as little as 7/32". The wood isn't going to shrink lengthwise. The length of the hole is what will allow for the shrinkage.


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## WoodbuilderJesse (Mar 8, 2015)

Hey, I actually just recently built a farm table myself. 


And the answer if helps is use A LOT of glue. Especially if your biscuiting a lot of the table's top boards like I did. I unfortunately did not use enough glue and now recently discovered that my hard worked hard maple farmhouse table I made and design is slowly coming apart by cracks. Its really heartbreaking to see that happen as I am sure a lot of these guys and girls know how that feels. So yes my answer and response to your question which has already been said is use A LOT of glue. I didn't and I've been regretting it ever since. 

Hope this helps if you haven't already heard it. 

Jesse


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## nbo10 (Jan 26, 2011)

WoodbuilderJesse said:


> Hey, I actually just recently built a farm table myself.
> 
> 
> And the answer if helps is use A LOT of glue. Especially if your biscuiting a lot of the table's top boards like I did. I unfortunately did not use enough glue and now recently discovered that my hard worked hard maple farmhouse table I made and design is slowly coming apart by cracks. Its really heartbreaking to see that happen as I am sure a lot of these guys and girls know how that feels. So yes my answer and response to your question which has already been said is use A LOT of glue. I didn't and I've been regretting it ever since.
> ...


I'm interested in knowning why you think more glue would have prevented the cracking in your table? Did you have sections that didn't have glue? Was squeeze out less in the areas that cracking occurred? Thanks in advanced for the answers.


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks all for your help - my 1st table was a success. Small hiccup when I tried to dye it darker - what they say about alder is true: soooo blotchy! I had even used diluted shellac pre-stain to even it out, but no dice. I ended up resanding to get the dye out (most of it at least) - luckily I only dyed the bottom side, so the top was still virgin. Ended up with 2 coats of Zinzer Sealcoat shellac, and 2 coats of General Finishes Arm-R-Seal satin. Even did some wood burning/engraving on the bottom!

P.S. you were all right, with the addition of the 4" wide 3/8" thick steel legs, this thing weighs a ton!


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Looks great!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Good job. :thumbsup:


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## rabies (Apr 3, 2015)

if you dont mind i saved the pic. id like make something like that some day to replace my table


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## Calipoop (Feb 19, 2015)

rabies said:


> if you dont mind i saved the pic. id like make something like that some day to replace my table


Of course! Happy to hear it


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Calipoop said:


> OK, thanks for the input Rebelwork/Steve. I can tell the welder to increase the holes to 1/2"... That seems pretty huge through - instead of larger holes, should I use thinner screws? What size screw would you guys recommend based on the photo layout above? Would #10 be meaty enough?


That is a really big screw hole. I'm wondering how the equipment your fabricator used to cut slots is down so now he can't make a slot. You can make a slott with 2 holes and a file. If he can't manage that, well, I'd be worried about everything else


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## Cloyd1980 (May 19, 2015)

That looks great, nice job! Did you do any milling of the boards or did you just spend time picking out straight boards when buying them?


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## ste6168 (Apr 6, 2015)

Even if it weren't a first project, I am impressed!


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