# Planing large table



## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)




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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I am currently building this large table to go in my dads office. However, I have found no way to make the table perfectly flat. There are two major indentations along the middle of the table as a result from over sanding. I am reluctant to use a belt sander because it scares me to think I may again oversand the table. I have no access to a planet or industrial sander of this size, but I have considered building a jig with my router to plane the table. Any ideas or tips would be welcome


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Is the top veneered, if not you could use hand planes to flatten the top.


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

Yeah those are all solid planks. I'm afraid my planing skills are lacking though. Do you think a belt sander would do more harm than good?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*looks like Walnut?*

Looks like there are many pieces of Walnut glued together at various angles and some at 90 degrees to the main body..... you may have wood movement problems as well as the small imndentations.

If you want this to be a really fine table, you must take to a cabinet shop with a "wide belt" sander. Nothing else will be able to manage the grain changes without tearing out the wood. A really good quality ROS 6" diameter "might" work but the investment would be more than the cabinet shop will change by far.

It would take only 10 to 20 minutes of shop time for which they may charge $40.00 per hour or so. Call around and find out who might be able to help you.
I you have to drive an hour it will still be worth it. I have a friend who make doors up to 42" wide and they come out beautifully. He has sanded table tops for me as well as a 2 1/2" thick Maple workbench top... beautiful. :yes:


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I think a 6" ROS may be my best bet as I have already glued up the skirt on the bottom.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

You never said how deep the indentations are???

George


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

Oh maybe 2 or 3 millimeters. If I run my hand across the width of the table, one side in particular, there is a 4 to 5 inch width groove that is quite noticeable. Otherwise the table is quite flat.


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

More like one millimeter


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)




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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

clark from utah said:


> View attachment 101009


Pencil mark all your low areas and get the 80 grit out for the beltsander to take the high places down to that.

KEEP your straight edge handy and check as you go often. You will get there! :yes:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it's all in the wrist*



OnealWoodworking said:


> Pencil mark all your low areas and get the 80 grit out for the *beltsander* to take the high places down to that.
> 
> KEEP your straight edge handy and check as you go often. You will get there! :yes:


If you don't keep a belt sander dead flat you'll make little edges on the sides. You must keep it moving at all times or you'll make divots faster than a novice on a golf course.
This is a skill that takes a while to acquire, so for someone starting out I would not recommend a belt sander, rather A 6" ROS which is less prone to leave edges or divots. 
You are very correct about checking and marking using the straight edge. You can use blackboard chalk, sidewalk chalk or a wax pencil for your marks. I just squiggle back and for on the highs and then sand the marks away and recheck....


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## GROOVY (Apr 27, 2008)

Clark that is a nice looking table, what did you originally sand with? My thought is a belt sander is going to leave noticeable marks due to the cross grain you will have on the diagonal intersections, I would go for the ros and pencil marks to measure progress. Mineral spirits will give you a good preview of what you will see under a finish too.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> If you don't keep a belt sander dead flat you'll make little edges on the sides. You must keep it moving at all times or you'll make divots faster than a novice on a golf course.
> This is a skill that takes a while to acquire, so for someone starting out I would not recommend a belt sander, rather A 6" ROS which is less prone to leave edges or divots.
> Your are very correct about checking and marking using the straight edge. You can use blackboard chalk, sidewalk chalk or a wax pencil for your marks. I just squiggle back and for on the highs and then sand the marks away and recheck....


I agree, if you aren't really really good with a belt sander you can mess up more than you can fix.


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I will probably go with the ROS sander. Thanks for the input. The pencil marks are a good idea. I just sanded with a sanding block originally. 
I have virtually no woodworking experience so I will stay away from the belt sander. I have been working on this thing on and off for a year now and am pretty fustrated with myself but these tips helped a lot. Thanks


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I'll post some pics when I get this thing all out together


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

A good *sharp* cabinet scraper will take material off pretty fast yet very safe and manageable.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

clark from utah said:


> I will probably go with the ROS sander. Thanks for the input. The pencil marks are a good idea. I just sanded with a sanding block originally.
> I have virtually no woodworking experience so I will stay away from the belt sander. I have been working on this thing on and off for a year now and am pretty fustrated with myself but these tips helped a lot. Thanks


The reason I say 80 grit belt sander to begin with is because I recently did one very similar to yours.










With the dip you have - You will be several days with an orbital sander trying to get that right. (depends how long the dip runs for) 

A belt sander can get that 'closer' in a few hours. (practice on scrap if need be)

The belt sander is only to get you 'close'. You finish with the Orbital... :yes:


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

you need to find someone with a wide belt sander as bill mentioned.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Also if you did indeed glue the apron to the top you are going to want to cut that loose. If you can get the glue to release then good, if not then maybe a multi tool like a fein.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

TimPa said:


> you need to find someone with a wide belt sander as bill mentioned.


I am betting it will cost considerably more than Bill estimated.

:yes:

Especially if it is any sort of multi headed type sander that is not currently set up for wood thicknessing. You guys may be failing to consider just how expensive parts AND labor are for those machines. 'Normal' shop rates will not likely apply if using that machine.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I use a cabinet scraper after glue ups. Quite fast and you have the option of going in any direction for rapid stock removal. The scraper will work like a plane in that it will mostly remove the high spots before getting into the rest. With the grain running in every direction it would take a skilled woodworker to go at it with a hand plane.

My second choice would be a router with a sled and rails. Then hit it with the cabinet scraper or card scraper then the ROS at 180.

Al


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

OnealWoodworking said:


> I am betting it will cost considerably more than Bill estimated.
> 
> :yes:
> 
> Especially if it is any sort of multi headed type sander that is not currently set up for wood thicknessing. You guys may be failing to consider just how expensive parts AND labor are for those machines. 'Normal' shop rates will not likely apply if using that machine.


Not really, we do it for people occassionally. if it is only a pass or two I may not even charge them. I can't attest for other shops though. Our 37" wide belt sander was under $10k, very easy to use. although I agree with you, some are very expensive.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

TimPa said:


> Not really, we do it for people occassionally. if it is only a pass or two I may not even charge them. I can't attest for other shops though. Our 37" wide belt sander was under $10k, very easy to use. although I agree with you, some are very expensive.


Sometimes those are the most 'handy' kinds to have in the shop... :yes:


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## mrbentontoyou (Aug 3, 2010)

First off, that's a great looking table. Nice work. 

Someone brought up wood movement, and it does seem like that would be an issue, but you never stated what (if any) measures you took to deal with it. If you did take movement into consideration I'd be interested to hear about what exactly you did. If not, I'd be interested to hear back about movement issues down the road. Walnut is a particularly stable wood, so I'm genuinely curious to see how that composition fares over time. 

I have made many large solid wood table tops. I have done tons of handheld belt sanding, router jig flattening, hand planing, etc, any method you can think of to get large surfaces flat. I have also farmed out sanding to more than one shop with a wide belt sander. I now own a wide belt, dual head sander. 

Shops with large sanders are usually totally worth the cost. The most I ever paid for sanding of a large slab (12' long, 48" wide, 2.25" thick) was $75. This was done on a $300k, state of the art machine, and I'm in NYC where everything costs more. It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but the bigger, more expensive machines are meant for full time production and they are relatively bulletproof compared to lower cost "occasional use" machines. In the future, I definitely suggest going this route before adding skirts of a greater thickness. The first time you get a dead flat, perfectly sanded table top back from the sander, you'll be sold. 

After the thicker skirts are on, you don't have the sander option (unless you build up the thickness of the main table top with sheet material temporarily attached to the underside to equal the thickness of the skirts...) so there are really only three ways to go:

-Belt sanding by hand

-Hand planing

-Router jig

For me, *belt sanding* is out. I loathe handheld belt sanders. It is way too easy to make the surface worse with a belt sander, and the larger the surface, the more this is true. Seems you have already come to this same conclusion. 

*Hand planing* is a viable option. God knows I've done it on many a large hardwood table top. What you will need is some serious sharpening skills, a jointer plane with a flat sole, and a smoother capable of giving you a high cutting angle. A low angle jack with a toothed blade would also be a great tool to use for this. The main thing is to make sure your irons are RAZOR sharp and plane with the grain as much as possible. There is a ton of great info on the internet detailing the proper technique for flattening large surfaces via handplanes; do some research before you start. It may sound like a lot of work, and it is. You will sweat. However, with the proper tools and a solid, concentrated effort you could have that table top dead flat, smoothed, and ready for a fine finish sanding within an hour and a half, which is probably less time than it would take you round trip to pack up that table and cart it to a shop with a wide belt sander. You will also acquire new skills (if you don't have them already) which will prove quite useful and enjoyable in the future of your woodworking. 

Finally, a *router jig* is also a viable option. You'll be happiest with a large 3+ HP router. I've had the best results using "surface planing" or "bottom cleaning" bits from a brand called "magnate" (no affiliation, ymmv). You can get these around 2-3/4" diameter; it makes life a lot easier than using regular 1-1/2" straight bits. 
The main benefit of the router jig is that you will have it for future table tops. If you ever go to make a table this size again, just break out the jig. All you need to do after routing the surface flat is spend some time with the orbital sander (or your super sharp handplanes!) to get ready for finish. If you go this route (rout?), take your time and build the jig well, especially if you enjoy this scale of woodworking. This jig can open up a lot of possibilities for larger scale projects. 

Whatever direction you go with this table top, *Good Luck!* Please post up to share your results. I know I'm interested to see how it comes out. None of us is done learning yet! :thumbsup:


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I am considering the router jig after trying to use the belt sander. That thing scares me to death. Anyways as a sled, will a 1" by 48" by 1/8" thick aluminum angle iron be able to support the router at the middle of the cut?


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

Oh and as for anticipating wood movement over time... I'll be honest and admit I didn't even consider this factor. I am 17 and tackled this project with little understanding of basic woodworking. Soooo hopefully the movement is not too substantial... Thanks for the input though. Yes we are all learning, and this project has taught me I hate large scale projects such as this


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)

I have just spent the last two days sanding my table with a ROS marking the high places and sanding them off. Anyways the table if pretty flat with no noticeable grooves when I run my hand across it. I am posting a picture of the worst irregularity. Anyways how bad would my table look if it was not absolutely perfectly flat? It is smooth and the joinery is solid, but I really don't have the patience for such a painstaking job and would like to move on to smaller projects? 
Any input would be helpful. The base is handsome and pretty much perfect, but currently at my high school otherwise I would post a picture. Anyways here is the worst of the opposition to flatness... Honestly like a millimeter between the wood and flat edge.


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## mr.crumpet123 (Jul 17, 2013)




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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It's a handsome looking top*

Why not just stop "overthinking" it and let it be what it is. Maybe not perfectly flat, maybe it will move in unexpected ways, maybe it will be just fine. 

Put a nice finish on it and move on to the next project. I think you did a fine job. If you want a "renuable" finish I would use a danish oil to bring out the walnut. A film finish or varnish will be hard to maintain from scratches and such.


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## mrbentontoyou (Aug 3, 2010)

Yeah that's the other option-

Throw some finish on it and be happy. 

Satin Sheen! Gloss will reveal any surface irregularities a lot more.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm kind of late in this discussion. Assuming you are a novice with a belt sander I think you could sand part of the high places down with that and then finish the job with the orbital. The orbital just isn't aggressive enough for leveling. As long as you keep the belt sander on the high places you shouldn't hurt anything. 

Only you can decide if it is sanded flat enough. Since you are seeing it I don't think you would be happy with the table unless you get it flat which in can be if you are persistent enough. 

When you finish the table be sure to seal the underside of the table so it stays flat as long as possible.


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## michigancritter (Mar 7, 2012)

Could try a self leveling epoxy finish. Had a similar problem on a table a while ago, couldn't get it perfectly flat. Mixed it and poured and the lows filled themselves in.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

clark from utah said:


> I am considering the router jig after trying to use the belt sander. That thing scares me to death. Anyways as a sled, will a 1" by 48" by 1/8" thick aluminum angle iron be able to support the router at the middle of the cut?


Hell no. 

Not just NO but... Hell NO. 

:no:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Hell no.
> 
> Not just NO but... Hell NO.
> 
> :no:


I agree. Machining the top with a router at this point is only going to gouge it all up. I would either sand it more or proceed with the finish.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Seems we see a lot of threads like this on table tops. It would have been better if the OP had sought advise at glue up. This is where most of the work begins. Careful fitting of the pieces would have saved an enormous amount of time. 

At this point the OP could get a card scraper and knock off his high spots without doing any more damage. It's really quite simple to use and almost impossible to mess up. The surface will knock down much faster and flatter than any sander can do. Requiring far less skill than a belt sander demands. It's a beast of a tool.

If the OP moves to finish it will only serve to "highlight" the uneven surface and will be a constant reminder for the life of the table. Dig in and make it right. 

Al


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