# How Do I Join Vertical Posts Like These Ones?



## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi there, Everyone:

I am inexperienced at wood working so pardon me if my vocabulary is wrong.

I am trying to make clothing stands similar to the ones in the photo below.

How should I attach the vertical posts to the horizontal wood base? Also, how should I attach the horizontal piece that extends out at the top of the vertical post? (Screws? Nails? Glue?)

It looks like the horizontal arm goes through a hole near the top of the vertical post and sticks out about an inch out the backside of the vertical post. (You can't see this in the photo, but I have seen them in real life and it loos like it passes through the vertical post.)

Also, what dimension wood do you think I should use? (In the photo, it looks like the base might be a 2 X 12 about 14 inches long, and the vertical post looks like a 2 X 2 about 65 inches tall). What would you suggest?

Unfortunately, I will probably have to use soft woods (pine or douglass fir) for the base, post, and horizontal arm. Is that doable? Or do I need to use hardwoods?

I would prefer NOT to use any bracing if possible so that it closely resembles the ones in the photo. But if I have to use bracing, then can you suggest a type of bracing that won't obstruct LONG pieces of clothing that might dangle down to the base?

Thanks in advance.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

BTW: I went to the local lumber yard and they said NOT to use any soft woods; they said only hard woods would be able to provide a decent joint strength.

Do you think that is true? Or are they just trying to get me to buy more expensive wood?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*They are correct in the long term*

A mortise and tenon joint would be best. A rectangular section would be stronger than a square section. A triangular brace in the intersection would be stronger yet. A long draw bolt up from the bottom would also help. The bottom joint is the weakest because of the long leverage from the vertical post. The upper joint has a shorter lever arm so it's not so critical, but any re-enforcement is better than none.  bill


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for the response, woodnthings:

Would the mortise and tenon joint be for where the vertical post joins the base? Or is that for where the horizontal "flag" joins the vertical post up near the top?

If I end up doing a triangular brace at the bottom of the vertical post, is there any formula for how big that triangle brace needs to be? Also, what would be the best way to fasten it to the base and the vertical post?

Thanks in advance.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Use a M&T at both places*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

The base will have a mortise (rectangular straight sided opening) and the post will have 2 shouldered tenons,1 top and 1 at the bottom. 
The top brace could also have wedged tenon like this below:
For an extensive look at woodworking joints visit this site:
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_joineryterms.htm












Another cool joint:


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks again for the response and the link!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*look again I added a link*



Wood4Brains said:


> Thanks again for the response and the link!


 You're welcome!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

It is possible to make something strong enough from the soft woods such as pine, doug fir, poplar.

I have many examples in my home.

However, mine are not made from the grade of wood as found in furring strips, which is perhaps the lowest grade. This means more knots, splits, etc. all of which weaken the wood.

If you are using 1x strips, then even weaker.

People can put a decent amount of load on a clothes rack, by leaning on it, pulling on it etc.

You can either make the stands beefy, as in your photo example, or from thinner/weaker wood, which means more attention to design, as Bill mentions, good joints, bracing and reinforcing.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Here's a suggestion. You need three lengths of clear vertical grain Douglas Fir ¾" x 2¼", by 65", or whatever. Glue them up together. Near the top, drill a through hole 1¼" at the center. Buy a length of wood closet rod, which will be 1¼". Cut it off for the length of the hanging rod you want. Glue in the rod to the hole...flush to the back.

Use a 2x12 for the base, and line up the standing column so the back of the column is flush with the back of the 2x. Drill a 1¼" hole in the center of the column end about 1½" deep, and a matching 1¼" through hole in the 2x. Cut the closet rod about 3" long and glue in the rod into the hole of the column and into the 2x base.

You can dress up all the edges with a small chamfer.









 







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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Wood4Brains said:


> BTW: I went to the local lumber yard and they said NOT to use any soft woods; they said only hard woods would be able to provide a decent joint strength.
> 
> Do you think that is true? Or are they just trying to get me to buy more expensive wood?


They are incorrect. For what you are doing pine, fir, etc would have all of the strength you need.

I would guess that those posts are larger than 2x2. Maybe 3x3 or even 4x4(which really is only 3.5x3.50).

Do you have the ability to cut a square hole in the base that is the same size as the post? That would be very good if you did. You could set the post into that hole and glue it in place. And then use a couple of relatively small triangles as supports. If not you an run a long lag bolt up into the post through the base. Then use somewhat larger support triangles. The post and base would also be glued together.

At the top I would use a 1", or even a 1 1/2" dowel as the rod between the posts. You would cut a hole in the posts the same size as the rod. I would let the rod float in the hole and not try to permanently fasten it into place. This would enable you to break down the unit for transport.

The rods would be kept from moving in the hole in the post by a screw run through the posts into the rod.

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> Here's a suggestion. You need three lengths of clear vertical grain Douglas Fir ¾" x 2¼", by 65", or whatever. Glue them up together. Near the top, drill a through hole 1¼" at the center. Buy a length of wood closet rod, which will be 1¼". Cut it off for the length of the hanging rod you want. Glue in the rod to the hole...flush to the back.
> 
> Use a 2x12 for the base, and line up the standing column so the back of the column is flush with the back of the 2x. Drill a 1¼" hole in the center of the column end about 1½" deep, and a matching 1¼" through hole in the 2x. Cut the closet rod about 3" long and glue in the rod into the hole of the column and into the 2x base.
> 
> You can dress up all the edges with a small chamfer.


Adding to the above would be to nail in the bottom of the base, 4 furniture glides...
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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*wood strength vs joint strength*

Wood is very strong in vertical compression and will hold a lot of weight when loaded that way, However, wood in shear which is what the mortise and tenon joinery will have, needs to resist horizontal "compression" of the fibers and not "squish" as soft wood will eventually. The success of this project is to make a very strong joint where the wood itself resistes the shear and the glue just keeps the pieces in place and little strength of it own is required. Hardwood will better resist the cantilever type load of the extended arm and the long post in the base. Dowels, pins screws and other fasteners will eventually loosen on softwood.
I've repaired many a clothes pole/rack because the screws came loose, the dowels broke in the soft wood or the joints failed. 
My opinion is if you are going to the trouble to make this project, don't cheap out on the material, go with a Oak, Cherry or other hardwood and make something that will endure. Make the joints properly and close fitting. That's what I would do, you can do as you choose.  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Wood is very strong in vertical compression and will hold a lot of weight when loaded that way, However, wood in shear which is what the mortise and tenon joinery will have, needs to resist horizontal "compression" of the fibers and not "squish" as soft wood will eventually. The success of this project is to make a very strong joint where the wood itself resistes the shear and the glue just keeps the pieces in place and little strength of it own is required. Hardwood will better resist the cantilever type load of the extended arm and the long post in the base. Dowels, pins screws and other fasteners will eventually loosen on softwood.
> I've repaired many a clothes pole/rack because the screws came loose, the dowels broke in the soft wood or the joints failed.
> My opinion is if you are going to the trouble to make this project, don't cheap out on the material, go with a Oak, Cherry or other hardwood and make something that will endure. Make the joints properly and close fitting. That's what I would do, you can do as you choose.  bill


That's exactly why what I suggested will work. The method doesn't even need glue, as the fitting parts are full depth...a lot of mating surfaces. I've done displays like this that are still in use for over 25 years. They can be separated if need be...like for trade shows.









 







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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks so much for the suggestions, everyone!!! :smile:

i really appreciate all the input.

Unfortunately, I am a little bit limited when it comes to tool availability. I only have an electric drill, a hammer, a couple of screwdrivers, a few things like that. So I won't unfortunately be able to put a square whole in the base.

I would like to use hardwood, but around here I am having a hard time even finding any hardwood 2 X 2 or 2 X 3 posts. I would probably have to get a 2 X 6 and have them cut it lengthwise down the middle (I think thye call that a rip cut - what do I know...)

Since most of the shelving and other stuff we have is Pine / Doug fir that has been stained a medium-dark walnut color, can you suggest a hardwood that is inexpensive and will react to the stain similar to the way that the pine / doug fir will?

Thanks in advance.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Wood4Brains said:


> Thanks so much for the suggestions, everyone!!! :smile:
> 
> i really appreciate all the input.
> 
> ...


What I suggested (post #9) uses all round holes, and the wood is common to the home centers...readily available. 









 





 
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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks again, cabinetman;

Is there any advantage to using three 3/4 thick fir strips glued together for the vertical post as opposed to using a single 2 X 3 piece? Will it be stronger than a single 2 X 3 piece?

Oh, one more thing; what is the advantage of the furniture glides?

Thanks in advance.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Wood4Brains said:


> Thanks again, cabinetman;
> 
> Is there any advantage to using three 3/4 thick fir strips glued together for the vertical post as opposed to using a single 2 X 3 piece? Will it be stronger than a single 2 X 3 piece?
> 
> ...


Yes it will be. The joints should be facing the base (in line). The furniture glides will account for a base that may not be absolutely flat, or sitting on carpet.










 







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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks so much for the explanation.

One more question:



> The joints should be facing the base (in line).


Just so I understand, that means that if I am looking at the base from the long end (so I am looking parallel to the grain in the base - the grain is pointing right at me), then I will see the two joints between the three vertical strips of fir, right? but if I am looking at it from the side (i.e., viewing across the grain of the base) then the joints will be hidden, right?

Thanks again.

Oh, and what glue should I use? Is gorilla glue ok (since I have some lying around). If I run out, what other glue could I use?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Wood4Brains said:


> Thanks so much for the explanation.
> 
> One more question:
> 
> Just so I understand, that means that if I am looking at the base from the long end (so I am looking parallel to the grain in the base - the grain is pointing right at me), then I will see the two joints between the three vertical strips of fir, right? but if I am looking at it from the side (i.e., viewing across the grain of the base) then the joints will be hidden, right?


That's right. Another way of seeing the orientation is that the hang rod hole is drilled in the center of the three laminated sections. Here's another idea as long as we are up at the hang rod. I would allow about 1½" to 2" above the top of the hole. Just to "cap" it off so to speak so it doesn't look so plain, add a post cap...something *like this*.




Wood4Brains said:


> Oh, and what glue should I use? Is gorilla glue ok (since I have some lying around). If I run out, what other glue could I use?


I wouldn't use Gorilla Glue. I think Titebond II or III would be a better glue...less of a mess, and an easier clean up.









 







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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks so much for the suggestion about the cap. It would be nice to have something that sort of "echoes" the base.

And also thanks for the suggestion about chamfering the edges of the base and the tips about the right glue to use.

I was kind of dreading this project before, and now I am feeling more confident. If you had seen my previous woodwork, you would understand why; most of it looks like something Spanky and Alfalfa made ...


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi again, Everyone:

I have been mulling over cabinetman's suggestions (see post #9 above) about how to make these wood racks, and I came up with an alternate solution that probably will be harder but hopefully will be a little stronger? (as well as be a little more aesthetically pleasing and less expensive / easier to source).

Cabinetman suggested using three pieces of doug fir laminated together and then using a 1-1/4 for the vertical and a dowel joint for where the vertical connects to the base, which would be a 2 X 12 about 14 inches long..

I was thinking instead of using a 1-11/16 X 1-11/16 doug fir post (with radial edges). For the base, I would use two 1 X 12 X 14 pine boards laminated face to face to make a 2 inch thick base.

For the joint, before I glue the base boards, I would drill a hole through the face of both boards and then use a chisel to make a mortise. (maybe drill the boards before glueing, then glue them, then chisel?)

then I would slide the end of the 1-11/16 post into the mortise so that it was flush with the bottom of the base and glue it. 

Maybe last part is a BAD idea? Should I only make the mortise on the bottom board 1/2 inch deep so that the end of the post will have something to glue onto the bottom of the mortise? 

One more question; Would it be better to square off the radial edges of the post if I want to fit it into the mortise? Would the sqaured off edges be STRONGER or weaker for the joint?

alternatively, would it be better to cut a shouldered tenon in the bottom of the vertical post to fit into the mortise? I would imagine that would make it WEAKER because we are basically taking away material and, thus, removing area for the glue to adhere.

Thanks in advance.

As for the horizontal flag, I am thinking of using a 3/4 X 1 - 1/2 X 12 inch doug fir board like this one here 

I would turn it on edge so that it was more rigid and then drill out and chisel out a mortise. I would probably then have it flush mount or extend out the back (I kind of like the look of having a pin M/t joint)

does this sound like a sturdy, workable solution?

thanks so much.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

...or maybe I should just invest in the Kreg R3 system and do pocket screws and glue to mount the post flush to the TOP of the base?


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