# Question About Logging



## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey guys,

I have a question about something about which I know absolutely nothing.

My wife and I are considering purchasing a property in northern Wisconsin. It's a heavily wooded 40 acre property. Has a great house on it, woodshop, outbuildings, a creek running through it, etc. The price is awesome and the seller is very motivated. 

My question is about the timber. It's a mixture of hard and softwood, oak, pine, birch, hickory, maple, spruce and others i am sure. Where can I go to get information about potentially logging part of it? My thought would be to perhaps look at logging 10 to 15% percent of it once we purchased it and use the proceeds to pay off the mortgage. Is that reasonable/feasible? Do people do this? Is there anyway to determine a ballpark number that one could expect to get on a per acre basis given the types of woods we are talking about?

Thanks


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Tom5151 said:


> Where can I go to get information about potentially logging part of it?




http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/LP-private.htm






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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Daren said:


> http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/LP-private.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Daren. There is quite a bit of information there. I will spend some time going through it. 

Is there anyway to estimate or determine if what we are conisdering is even feasible? Would we need to get a logger to come on site to give us an estimate. Are there standard rate tables available to determine roughly how much we would make from such an endeavor? If we are just naive and thinking pie in the sky here then we wont even pursue it.....

Thanks again


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Tom5151 said:


> Is there anyway to estimate or determine if what we are conisdering is even feasible?


That is a foresters job, why I gave you the link, contact one. 


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Daren said:


> That is a foresters job, why I gave you the link, contact one.
> 
> 
> .


 
.wow...okay.....nothing like a helpful forum......thanks


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

My short answers earlier were not a ''tone'', I was replying from my phone and don't like to type long answers on that thing. Even in one sentence I feel I answered your questions though...but let me expand.

It is (one of) a foresters job(s) to assess and evaluate a timber stand, like you are asking about. No one can sight unseen can give you a realistic $ figure, way too many variables, or tell you if your plan is feasible. There are no standard rate tables that can be applied without a visual assessment.

Not only can a forester a give an estimated value of standing timber, they can make recommendations as how to improve the stand by selective harvest and good forestry practices so it continues to pay off for generations by producing ''good trees''. Or make it worth more should you want to sell the property/trees standing in your lifetime.

They can also help with timber sales, set up bidding = get multiple loggers to bid = better $. And they know which loggers are fair and which are crooked. You asked about getting *A* logger to give you an estimate, that is not just a no, that is a hell no. A forester can help with logging contracts etc, the business end of the deal.
As well as recommend things like trees to leave/plant for wildlife habitat - if you like to hunt, or even if you don't and want animals to have a nice place to live. And watershed advice ,so you don't screw up your creek...Among other things...why my short answer was ''That is a foresters job, why I gave you the link, contact one.'' 



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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Daren said:


> My short answers earlier were not a ''tone'', I was replying from my phone and don't like to type long answers on that thing. Even in one sentence I feel I answered your questions though...but let me expand.
> 
> It is (one of) a foresters job(s) to assess and evaluate a timber stand, like you are asking about. No one can sight unseen can give you a realistic $ figure, way too many variables, or tell you if your plan is feasible. There are no standard rate tables that can be applied without a visual assessment.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Extremely helpful Daren. I should apolgize for my crappy attitude. Not a good morning and I let that get the best of me. Sorry about that. 

I will try to contact one of the state foresters. I assume they could provide some of this information before we actually purchase the property. That would really be a major determining factor in terms of whether or not we actually buy the property.

Thanks again....


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Tom5151 said:


> Not a good morning ...


Must be an Illinois thing :wallbash:, same here so no sweat.


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## fromtheforty (Jan 15, 2011)

My guess is that you are going to be disappointed in the amount of money you would receive from logging it out. It always seems to me that everyone makes a buck on cutting timber except the guy who had the property it came from. Now clearly, it makes a difference in the breakdown of the timber that you have on your property but I'm going to guess that it is primarily pine. Log prices, from what I have seen in my part of Wi, are fairly low right now and the cost of Diesel is fairly high. That would seem to be a recipe for low payment for you. That can change in a heartbeat, so if you can afford the property, wait a while, and you can always have that timber in your back pocket as a bonus.

Geoff


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Good points Geoff. Older thread...but unfortunately nothing has changed for the better...http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f26/very-bleak-report-timber-prices-9606/


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## Stinger4me (Nov 27, 2009)

Here are some things for you to ponder. The forester can give you an *accurate estimate *of the volume of timber on your property. The values of the timber may vary from logger to logger depending on the mills they do business with and the markets the mills sell their products. The timber on the land is part of the value of the property. There are times when the buyer is not permitted to sell any of the timber because when the timber is cut the value of the property will decrease. The lendor has lost value of the land they have a lein on. Some loggers have better markets than others and that may be reflected in the price they are willing to offer. I would recommend you hire a forester who is paid by you and therefore looks out for your interest. Get a good one.


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## truckjohn (Oct 31, 2011)

I think as Darren says.. There are a number of very useful things that the Forrester can bring to the table... Even when the market is down... Remember - with proper care - your trees will only get bigger and better and more valuable if you can sit and wait....

A big one is which trees to get out of the stand because of safety or health concerns.... How to thin the stand for maximum quality of whatever you want... Perhaps some ideas of things to plant to increase the value of the stand....

Another one is perhaps helping you understand what the markets are and what is desirable in that particular market... What stuff sells into specialty markets (For more $$$) and what isn't really worth anything except for pulp and mulch. Personally, I don't really have much desire to wait 40 years only to find out that I've raised a fine crop of pulpwood....

I suppose that if you are trying to help offset the house payment - you could consider having some of your logs cut for lumber and then selling that lumber instead of just selling the logs... Selling the lumber from 1 log could easily net you 5 or 6 x what you could get from selling the log to the mill....

Thanks


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Gentlemen this is very helpful and instructional. I truly appreciate all of you taking the time to provide this information.

I have calls out to a couple of foresters. We'll see how it goes. At the very least I should end up getting quite an education.


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Worst case, you'll have a supply of lumber anytime you need it for your woodworking projects.


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

*Timber*

Log prices are very low(except walnut), most mills are just trying to make it through these tuff times. A forester will want to be paid to cruise the timber, logger gets $110 a thousand, trucking depending on distance $50 to 100 a thousand and oak is bringing about $350 a thousand. The days of paying off a piece of property with a sale of timber are long gone. jmo


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

I deal with a logger on SE wi he charges me .60 per bf for oak #1 and the same for hard maple. He will also advertise on craigslist regularly offering to pay 10-40k for standing timber. I have sent several people his way to cut just several acres for them and have gotten reports back that it was to small of a job for him. Not sure if this is universal among all loggers but ur plan to log 10-15% of the 40 acres may not be big enough and would prolly be a valid question to ask the foresters you contact

Sent from my DROID X2 using Woodworking Talk

Check out my website treecyclehardwoods.com for your next lumber purchase.


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## Stinger4me (Nov 27, 2009)

Log prices in Michigan are coming back and there is always some demand for quality wood. Some woodlot owners *may* have FAS, selects or veneer logs on their land. A big factor in cutting is doing what the stand of timber needs to improve quality and get regeneration started. Side benefits can be habitat improvement ans aesthetics. Good Luck!


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Thanks again guys. I truly appreciate the insight. I am begining to think that this notion may be a bit pie in the sky. I mean if it was so darn lucrative why wouldn't everyone be doing it? Right?

That said, I still have not heard back from any of the foresters but it's only been a day.

At any rate, the price on this property is so good, we may end up purchasing anyway and wait for the real estate market to come back a bit.....

Thanks again:thumbsup:


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## Stinger4me (Nov 27, 2009)

There are many people who know nothing about forestry. Some people think about harvesting and the first thing which comes to mind is a clear cut. I recall talking with a landowner who did not want to have a timber sale in his woods because it would make a mess. In his yard were several sixteen foot Sugar Maple logs which were #1 or veneer. I asked what he was going to do with them. His response was, "burn them", they are really easy to split. When you attempt to discuss forestry with someone of that mentality the challenge is overwhelming. The landowner had trees with two clear sixteen foot logs in them. He and the boys were too lazy to cut up the tops and they were too cheap to pay a forester a commission.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Stinger4me said:


> There are many people who know nothing about forestry. Some people think about harvesting and the first thing which comes to mind is a clear cut. I recall talking with a landowner who did not want to have a timber sale in his woods because it would make a mess. In his yard were several sixteen foot Sugar Maple logs which were #1 or veneer. I asked what he was going to do with them. His response was, "burn them", they are really easy to split. When you attempt to discuss forestry with someone of that mentality the challenge is overwhelming. The landowner had trees with two clear sixteen foot logs in them. He and the boys were too lazy to cut up the tops and they were too cheap to pay a forester a commission.


No pun intended but almost one of those "can't see the forrest for the trees" scenario.......I have quite a bit to learn....


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## Stinger4me (Nov 27, 2009)

Well you are absolutely right. They have a saying in Missouri, "you can't fix stupid". Here are some others, "Dumb can't be helped.", "If you are gonna be dumb, you better be tough." YOu may have things to learn but when you are talking with the forester, ask questions. The only dumb questions are those that aren't asked.


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## twilly (Feb 26, 2012)

Logger said:


> Log prices are very low(except walnut), most mills are just trying to make it through these tuff times. A forester will want to be paid to cruise the timber, logger gets $110 a thousand, trucking depending on distance $50 to 100 a thousand and oak is bringing about $350 a thousand. The days of paying off a piece of property with a sale of timber are long gone. jmo


Just curious where did these figures come from?


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

$110 is what is paid in Wi. at least the mill I cut for, maybe more if steep or long skids. The trucking is going up with the price of fuel rising, some mills may truck cheaper but make up for it on log scale. $350 on oak is a average, white oak/black/red and high to low grades. The high fuel prices have killed the pulp guys in my area, southern Wi.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

Wisconsin huh? Pity, I would try to sell you my harvest-ready maple forest in northern Michigan too.

Pardon me while I pull out my timberlands soapbox... 

If it were me, I'd look for a forester with roots in the area who works with clients over the longterm, not just for a single cut, and have them write you a "Forest Management Plan". Some will be independents and you might find one working for a mill specializing in long-term contracts. The idea is, you don't want to just hire someone who gets a cut (ha ha) of the cut proceeds and then you never see them again. You want someone invested in helping you realize your longterm management goals, longterm.

Ask for references you can talk to, the location of projects you can drive by, and ask to see a copy of their *standard harvesting contract*. 

That last part eliminates the majority of foresters. Why? Long long ago I went to forestry school. All my classmates - the ones that became foresters - all hated and I mean _hated_ lawyers. That hasn't changed much as far as I can tell. But when you hire one to represent your legal interests for a timber harvest, you want them to have your legal back. There is a lot of ways loggers can try to cheat you, so you want a forester that uses good contracts.... and that forester will have the honest loggers on speeddial. And there are plenty of them out there, the trick is getting hooked up with the right ones. I own some commercial forest myself, and before the crash was buying and selling recreation property so I talked to lots of landowners. Every tale of logging woe I ever heard.... _there was no meaningful paper contract._ If you can read it in 60 seconds or less be sure to get a 2nd opinion. Its sad, but its true. From my years buying/selling forest land across northern Michigan I met a lot of folks who had had successful cuts on a good ol-fashioned handshake.... and I met a lot of ones who were still cussing up a storm years later. So find a forester that uses the legal tools you need to protect your legal rights and remedies. Its like an umbrella. It never rains _if you have it._

Unless you are very lucky, chances are your first cut will be "timber stand improvement" and may not return a lot of money. Sort of like thinning the carrots in the spring. Be sure to decide what they have to do with the tops. Tops will rot fast where they touch the ground. They can leave them (bad), buck 'em a bit (not great), knock 'em down to below the knee (what I have them do on my own land), or remove them (cost you money unless there's a market for the stuff nearby).

Go visit some recent non-winter cuts to see what the machines do to unfrozen dirt, too. A hack job can make the woods very hard to walk in, even after the tops are rotted. You have some options there in your contract as well.

You said 40 acres.... you might ask the county extension whether you might be eligible for whatever wisconsin calls their property-tax reduction program for private commercial forests. I own some maple-beech & red pine forest in Michigan where I pay essentially no taxes. The TSI cut was around 1994, and it's ready for a high grade maple harvest and red pine thinning.

There's a heap of income tax related stuff you can take advantage of too.

Good luck! 

Steve El


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

SteveEl said:


> Wisconsin huh? Pity, I would try to sell you my harvest-ready maple forest in northern Michigan too.
> 
> Pardon me while I pull out my timberlands soapbox...
> 
> ...


Yes theres good and bad loggers and foresters, I was contact to look at a logging job that needed to be finished, it started 2 years ago and the second crew left a week before I looked at it. It was very steep slopes that the last 2 crews could not get to with a forwarders, all the trees had been cut 2 years ago on the steep ground and cut into log lenghts, needless the say the land owner was screaming mad. On the other hand there is people who sell land only to find out they didnt get a fair market price and feel they were riped off, you have to do your homework for sure.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

Logger said:


> ...the land owner was screaming mad....



Lemme guess.... the first guy to cut a tree got permission via handshake, or else a crappy contract that they had written themselves and had the landowner sign on the hood of the truck?

Maybe not, but in my real estate career I probably heard a hundred tales of woe and in almost all _there was no proper contract, where the landowner had an independent expert in their corner._


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

SteveEl said:


> Lemme guess.... the first guy to cut a tree got permission via handshake, or else a crappy contract that they had written themselves and had the landowner sign on the hood of the truck?
> 
> Maybe not, but in my real estate career I probably heard a hundred tales of woe and in almost all _there was no proper contract, where the landowner had an independent expert in their corner._


No the timber was bought by a forester of a big mill in northern Wi. with a multi year contract, the problem in my opinion was putting a forwarder in there in the first place, the only way to get that wood was by cable/skidder. Not sure if it was a lump sum sale or a % sale, hopefully the land owner was paid for the truck load of logs left on that hill. Im glad I walked away from that one.


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## twilly (Feb 26, 2012)

Logger said:


> $110 is what is paid in Wi. at least the mill I cut for, maybe more if steep or long skids. The trucking is going up with the price of fuel rising, some mills may truck cheaper but make up for it on log scale. $350 on oak is a average, white oak/black/red and high to low grades. The high fuel prices have killed the pulp guys in my area, southern Wi.


Just curious, I am cutting a mill owned track for $220/thousand + wood. Yes trucking is hacking away at the bottom line. But Oak across the board (hah) are averaging $500/ thousand. Although pulp prices are at a record high $28-$30/ ton,this is in southern OH.


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

twilly said:


> Just curious, I am cutting a mill owned track for $220/thousand + wood. Yes trucking is hacking away at the bottom line. But Oak across the board (hah) are averaging $500/ thousand. Although pulp prices are at a record high $28-$30/ ton,this is in southern OH.


 They payyou $220 or you bought for that. $110 was cut and skid and the mill pays truck if its there job. I pay trucking on my jobs and cost depends on distance. Most hardwood pulp here goes for firewood, pine guys are pretty much screwed since they lost the use of rail cars, close to 300 miles to a pulp mill, 150 miles to a sawmill that is buying. Alot of Wi. pulp mills are buying pulp already in pulp form from canada. We get some decent white oak but the red is not to good, lots of mineral stain.


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## twilly (Feb 26, 2012)

Logger said:


> They payyou $220 or you bought for that. $110 was cut and skid and the mill pays truck if its there job. I pay trucking on my jobs and cost depends on distance. Most hardwood pulp here goes for firewood, pine guys are pretty much screwed since they lost the use of rail cars, close to 300 miles to a pulp mill, 150 miles to a sawmill that is buying. Alot of Wi. pulp mills are buying pulp already in pulp form from canada. We get some decent white oak but the red is not to good, lots of mineral stain.


Yes they pay $220, but it's their track. But I truck it, it's about 55 miles to their mill, but about 90 to pulp mill that's all one way. On my tracks white oak has been decent, but red/ black oak is way off. Have been on their track for 2 months so can't put an exact figure on that, buddies all say still holding its own. I've got a small track that needs cut before saps up, probably won't happen, still have about 600k to cut for them.


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

twilly said:


> Yes they pay $220, but it's their track. But I truck it, it's about 55 miles to their mill, but about 90 to pulp mill that's all one way. On my tracks white oak has been decent, but red/ black oak is way off. Have been on their track for 2 months so can't put an exact figure on that, buddies all say still holding its own. I've got a small track that needs cut before saps up, probably won't happen, still have about 600k to cut for them.


 Hope you have some help, thats alot of cutting.


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## twilly (Feb 26, 2012)

Logger said:


> Hope you have some help, thats alot of cutting.


Another 35k down but rain setting in for tomorrow????


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