# Table saw 110 or 220 volt?



## Slowhand1843 (Jul 30, 2015)

I purchase a grizzly 10 inch table saw. It can be wired for 110 in place of the 220 volt. My question, does either voltage offer any benefits the other does not? 

When I had my shop wired, I only had 1 220 volt outlet installed, and it's a 4 wire receptacle, and my saw is 3 wire 220 volt. So for convenience I was thinking of changing to 110 volt. What would you do?

Thanks


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

220v is always better for a motor for most any woodworking tool. I've seen the work load on a motor being described like peddling a bicycle with one pedal or two. There is just that much difference.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

You'll get the same horsepower out of either voltage, but on 220 the amperage draw will be cut in half. Less amps drawn leads to marginally cooler running and thinner gauge wire can be used. 220 circuits are also generally rated for higher current loads, so you can run bigger motors off them.

If it can be run on 220, do it


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Another vote for 220, it can be proven on paper that there is no difference but you do get better performance than when running on 110 in the real world.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Before your question can be answered it is necessary to know how you are going to use the saw. If you are an occasional hobby user that is different than a user who will use the machine a lot for heavy cuts.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I'd go 220V*

The wiring that came with the saw will benefit from the 220 V supply, since it will need to carry less amperage. The 4th terminal is a ground, not absolutely necessary for 220 V. You just need 2 hots and a neutral (white) . The ground should be a bare wire inside the receptacle or green, depending. Most of my 220V outlets are 3 wire and where there are run in EMT, that acts as a ground.

The cool thing is when you upgrade to a 3 HP motor on any other tool you will already have the correct supply for it. 2 HP motors will run on 120 V BUT they need at least 12 GA or 10 GA supply cord. and a 20 AMP dedicated circuit.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> ....... You just need 2 hots and a neutral (white) . The ground should be a bare wire inside the receptacle or green, depending. Most of my 220V outlets are 3 wire and where there are run in EMT, that acts as a ground...........


i believe that is incorrect. a 220 line that will not be supplying 120v needs only 2 hots and a ground. the neutral would be needed if the 220v load needed 120v for any control applications. re: the emt comment, while it can function as a ground, if pure 220v is supplied to an outlet, it is usually done with 2 hots and a ground. i would be somewhat surprised to find the emt on your 220v lines is actually functioning as a ground, although it might. both the neutral and ground both terminate at the same point in the panel, and both ultimately go to ground.

almost all motors on tools we hobbyists use develop the same hp in either 110 or 220v configurations. some 20v motors come up to their operating speed faster than if they were operating on 110v and, because 220v draws lower amperage, it leaves more of a panel's capacity available for other loads. i have both 110 and 220v tools adn only a 30A sub panel. because of their lower amperage draws, the 220v tools leave more amperage for the 110v tools.

if i had it to do over again, i'd focus more on 220v tools whenever possible. wire your saw for 220v. you wont regret it.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I'd doesn't leave more power for other tools on 220 volt.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

If it's available, I'd definitely run it on 220v. There's really no downside, and potentially some upside. It varies with each individual circuit in question, but there's a strong tendency for 220v to have less voltage loss because each leg carries half the current, thus running at much less than the max capacity for the circuit compared to 110v. The functional benefits are most notable during startup and recovery from heavy load, both of which tend to occur much more quickly.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> I'd doesn't leave more power for other tools on 220 volt.


 Should read " It doesn't leave more power for other tools on 220 volt".


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

110 vs 220 seams to have a lot of different opinions.
My new shop has 220 and 110. Panel and outlets are 8' from my TS.
It's an old 1 HP Repulsion Induction motor. I am still running it on 110.
Not sure if I would feel any difference on 220.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

notskot said:


> If it's available, I'd definitely run it on 220v. There's really no downside, and potentially some upside. It varies with each individual circuit in question, but there's a strong tendency for 220v to have less voltage loss because each leg carries half the current, thus running at much less than the max capacity for the circuit compared to 110v. The functional benefits are most notable during startup and recovery from heavy load, both of which tend to occur much more quickly.


Exactly, I believe dual voltage is offered as an alternative to use 110 volts in a portable situation where 220 volts is not readily available.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> Should read " It doesn't leave more power for other tools on 220 volt".


:thumbsup: there you go! but it draws less power from a panel, thus leaving more capacity in a given sized panel for other power tools. my lowly 30A shop subpanel can power a 1.5 hp TS, 1.5 hp DC and a 20hp shopvac simultaneously.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that's some shop vac*



toolguy1000 said:


> :thumbsup: there you go! but it draws less power from a panel, thus leaving more capacity in a given sized panel for other power tools. my lowly 30A shop subpanel can power a 1.5 hp TS, 1.5 hp DC and a *20hp shopvac *simultaneously.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

After reading yeah's and nay's from numerous places, I'm believing, that if your wiring on 110 is adequate, there will be no difference on 220.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> 2 HP motors will run on 120 V BUT they need at least 12 GA or 10 GA supply cord. and a 20 AMP dedicated circuit.


This new Grizzly 2HP, 220v motor came from the factory with a 6 foot long, 14 gauge supply cord on it. (and a stupid 6-15 plug)

Crappy pic of crappy cord:









That cord went in the 'recycle for other projects pile' and it was replaced with a 12 gauge cord, 15 feet long and a proper plug. 

Total voltage drop at 15 amps went from .3% to .4% (or .6v to .9v)

I darn near tripled the length of the supply cord and only changed the voltage drop by a measly .1% by simply using the proper gauge wire... 

Grizzly oftentimes will use the cheapest stuff they can whenever possible and most owners will never even stop to check... :yes:


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

Pirate said:


> After reading yeah's and nay's from numerous places, I'm believing, that if your wiring on 110 is adequate, there will be no difference on 220.


Theoretically correct, but it's quite common to find a 110v circuit that's inadequate.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

toolguy1000 said:


> :thumbsup: there you go! but it draws less power from a panel, thus leaving more capacity in a given sized panel for other power tools. my lowly 30A shop subpanel can power a 1.5 hp TS, 1.5 hp DC and a 20hp shopvac simultaneously.


 You are partly correct. If your panel is 30 amp 110 volt that is equal to 15 amp 220 volt. The tool does draw half the amps on 220 volts, but your panel only has half the amps to draw. Wiring a tool to 220 volt doesn't give you free power. You could run the same load on 110 volt with proper wire size. If you put all three tools under full load I bet the main breaker would trip wired on 110 or 220.


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> You are partly correct. If your panel is 30 amp 110 volt that is equal to 15 amp 220 volt. The tool does draw half the amps on 220 volts, but your panel only has half the amps to draw. Wiring a tool to 220 volt doesn't give you free power. You could run the same load on 110 volt with proper wire size. If you put all three tools under full load I bet the main breaker would trip wired on 110 or 220.


I think the way this is worded is misleading. If you only have 110v in a panel it can't produce 220v. If you have 30 amps 220v you can run up to 60 amps 110v, but only 30 amps max per pole.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> You are partly correct. If your panel is 30 amp 110 volt that is equal to 15 amp 220 volt. The tool does draw half the amps on 220 volts, but your panel only has half the amps to draw. Wiring a tool to 220 volt doesn't give you free power. You could run the same load on 110 volt with proper wire size. If you put all three tools under full load I bet the main breaker would trip wired on 110 or 220.


Different way of looking at it, if you have 150 amp service at home, you'd be able to run 15 1hp motors concurrently on 110, but 30 of the same hypothetical motors on the same service, wired for 220. 

Not that it'll ever make any difference in a home shop, I can't imagine why you'd need to be running 30 motors at a single time.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

There is no extra power, a 15 amp 220 volt circuit requires a double pole breaker that takes 30 amps of 110 volts to run it, 15 amps from each side.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

toolguy1000 said:


> :thumbsup: there you go! but it draws less power from a panel, thus leaving more capacity in a given sized panel for other power tools. my lowly 30A shop subpanel can power a 1.5 hp TS, 1.5 hp DC and a 20hp shopvac simultaneously.


I can't fathom a 30 amp subpanel, especially for a shop. Is there really a 10 ga. wire feeding it?


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


>


yea, i realize its not 20hp in the TS sense of the word. but it's rather large, does draw power and my lowly 30A panel carries everything.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> You are partly correct. If your panel is 30 amp 110 volt that is equal to 15 amp 220 volt.
> 
> i believe that is incorrect. i ran my 220v DC (6A draw)and 220v 3hp unisaw (16A draw) on the same 20A 220v circuit wired with 12 gauge wire. had i wired the unisaw's dual voltage motor on 110v, it's 32A draw would have maxed out my panels capacity. so by using 220v motors, since they draw 1/2 the amperage of their 110v counterparts, there is more incoming line amperage left unused and available for other loads. i initially made the same mistake i believe you are making in thinking that each leg supplies 1/2 of the amperage. the amperage is not additive across the two incoming legs.
> 
> ...


see above comments


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

d_slat said:


> I think the way this is worded is misleading. If you only have 110v in a panel it can't produce 220v. If you have 30 amps 220v you can run up to 60 amps 110v, but only 30 amps max per pole.


almost all electrical residential panels, with two hots and a neutral coming in from the utility, have the potential for 220v. that a panel might only have 110v breakers in it only means that two side by side breakers need to be removed and replaced with one 220v breaker.

"If you have 30 amps 220v you can run up to 60 amps 110v" 

this is incorrect. a 30 A subpanel is fed by 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. the most amperage that panel can supply is 30A. there is no way it would ever support 60A of load, regardless of the single phase voltage of the load.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I can't fathom a 30 amp subpanel, especially for a shop. Is there really a 10 ga. wire feeding it?



yes. here is a pic of the main breaker for the house panel. the 30A two pole breaker is for the shop subpanel, 45' away from the main panel. the 60A 2 pole breaker supplies an inhouse subpanel for the central AC and a few 20A house circuits. and the shop sub panel is fed by 10 gauge wire.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

toolguy1000 said:


> yes. here is a pic of the main breaker for the house panel. the 30A two pole breaker is for the shop subpanel, 45' away from the main panel. the 60A 2 pole breaker supplies an inhouse subpanel for the central AC and a few 20A house circuits. and the shop sub panel is fed by 10 gauge wire.


Yea, you are definitely starved for power. The 100 amp main is more like what would be used on a small mobile home.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> yes. here is a pic of the main breaker for the house panel. the 30A two pole breaker is for the shop subpanel, 45' away from the main panel. the 60A 2 pole breaker supplies an inhouse subpanel for the central AC and a few 20A house circuits. and the shop sub panel is fed by 10 gauge wire.


You are slowly killing your motors running them like that... 

:yes:

I am not saying it can't be done with what you have. All I am saying is that it is never a good idea to stretch any motor to its 'limits' when it comes to its power supply.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> Different way of looking at it, if you have 150 amp service at home, you'd be able to run 15 1hp motors concurrently on 110, but 30 of the same hypothetical motors on the same service, wired for 220.
> 
> Not that it'll ever make any difference in a home shop, I can't imagine why you'd need to be running 30 motors at a single time.


Not quite- there's a lot of fog in the above posts. If wiring is adequate, there is little difference between running a motor on 120 and running it on 240. The power consumed is the same, which is the overall criteria.If i have 30 "hypothetical motors" running on 240, I can also run them all on 120.

It's this way - a typical 1HP motor will draw 16 amps @120 volts, and 8 amps @240. However, 16 X 120 = 1920 WATTS, and 8 X 240 = 1920 watts also.

Where 240 becomes advantageous is when long runs from panel to load exist. It's all about distance and voltage drop vs wire size & cost.
As the length of the run goes up, there is a point where it is cheaper to use 240 and lighter wire. Note, however, if the wire is too light even for the 240 volt run, the same slow acceleration on startup or load recovery will still exist.

Bottom line is choosing the most economical circuit that will provide full voltage over the operating range of the motor.

As to the above reference to the 150 amp panel, that is 150 amp at 240 volts max load. It is also 300 amp at all 120 volts max load. Just the nature of the beast.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Alchymist said:


> Not quite- there's a lot of fog in the above posts. If wiring is adequate, there is little difference between running a motor on 120 and running it on 240. The power consumed is the same, which is the overall criteria.If i have 30 "hypothetical motors" running on 240, I can also run them all on 120.
> 
> It's this way - a typical 1HP motor will draw 16 amps @120 volts, and 8 amps @240. However, 16 X 120 = 1920 WATTS, and 8 X 240 = 1920 watts also.
> 
> ...


You're completely right, my apologies. For some reason I had it in my head that the main line comes in at 220 and is stepped down to 120, rather that splitting the 220 line off to a hot and neutral to split the voltage in half. 

I should really know better that the crap that came flying out of my mouth that comment, but I get stupider the later the day goes. My apologies for the incorrect information!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> You're completely right, my apologies. For some reason I had it in my head that the main line comes in at 220 and is stepped down to 120, rather that splitting the 220 line off to a hot and neutral to split the voltage in half.
> 
> I should really know better that the crap that came flying out of my mouth that comment, but I get stupider the later the day goes. My apologies for the incorrect information!


The power coming in the house is two separate 120v lines which make 220. What is interesting is the two hot wires are out of phase with each other. They switch back and forth from positive to negative and when one of the hot leads is positive the other is negative. This is how a 220v motor only needs a ground. It uses the other hot lead as the neutral.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it's still about watts*



epicfail48 said:


> Different way of looking at it, if you have 150 amp service at home, you'd be able to run 15 1hp motors concurrently on 110, but 30 of the same hypothetical motors on the same service, wired for 220.
> 
> Not that it'll ever make any difference in a home shop, I can't imagine why you'd need to be running 30 motors at a single time.


Let's change the numbers a bit.

If you have 15 amps supply from the panel, you can run (1) 1 HP motor on 120V, drawing 15 AMPs, more or less to start and run. 120V X 15 AMPs = 1800 WATTs.

If you have 15 AMPs supply from the panel you can run (1) 1 HP motor on 240 Vs drawing 7.5 AMPs, more or less start and run since 240 X 7.5 = 1800 WATTs

Nothing gained or lost by operating on 120 V vs 240 V except... you can use smaller wires for the run because there is less current flowing in each wire.

There is another difference. 
One 15 AMP single pole breaker takes up one slot on the panel. A double pole, 240 V breaker takes up two slots on the panel. Using a single 120 V breaker allows for another breaker next to it. This means you can have 2 separate 120V 15 AMP circuits, each having it's own breaker to protect the wiring. You can run two separate motor simultaneously .... if you don't exceed the breaker's limits without unplugging them as you would have to do with two motors each running on 240 V., strictly a convenience issue. 

:smile:


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> You are slowly killing your motors running them like that.......


what is the basis for that statement?


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

> a 30 A subpanel is fed by 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. the most amperage that panel can supply is 30A. there is no way it would ever support 60A of load, regardless of the single phase voltage of the load.


Actually, a 220v 30 amp subpanel CAN supply 60a 110v. The 220 breaker is a 2 pole breaker which can supply 30a max per pole. You use both poles for 220v, so it can only supply 30a of 220v. If you balance the 110v loads properly, you can supply up to 60a 110v from a 30a 220v breaker.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You guys are talking about limits. The power draw really shouldn't be more than 80% of what the wire and breaker is rated at.


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You guys are talking about limits. The power draw really shouldn't be more than 80% of what the wire and breaker is rated at.


Thanks steve, I forgot to mention that.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

d_slat said:


> Actually, a 220v 30 amp subpanel CAN supply 60a 110v. The 220 breaker is a 2 pole breaker which can supply 30a max per pole. You use both poles for 220v, so it can only supply 30a of 220v. If you balance the 110v loads properly, you can supply up to 60a 110v from a 30a 220v breaker.


amperage is not additive across the poles. voltage is additive across the poles. the panel can supply the same total wattage (6600), but not the same amperage:

http://epb.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp

also,note the discussion of amperage as being similar to water current. 

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Definitions.php#Amps

if your original assertion were correct, my 32A 110v unisaw would have easily run on my 30A panel along with a harbor freight 1.5hp dust collector. and at 32A 110v, i wouldn't have been able to power up that 3 hp saw with a 30A 220v subpanel.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

toolguy1000 said:


> amperage is not additive across the poles. voltage is additive across the poles. the panel can supply the same total wattage (6600), but not the same amperage:
> 
> http://epb.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp
> 
> ...


Actually, what d_slat said,



d_slat said:


> Actually, a 220v 30 amp subpanel CAN supply 60a 110v. The 220 breaker is a 2 pole breaker which can supply 30a max per pole. You use both poles for 220v, so it can only supply 30a of 220v. If you balance the 110v loads properly, you can supply up to 60a 110v from a 30a 220v breaker.


is theoretically true.

What a lot of people miss is startup on equipment. Rule is that the equipment on the circuit nominally run at 80% of the circuit rating. This leaves headroom for startup currents, which can be 2 or 3 times running current, or more.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Agree totally re start up surge. I'm referring to FLA. A 30 panel cannot deliver more than 30a of current. Amperage is not additive across poles. Whatever the voltage, if the load exceeds the breaker rating, it should trip to protect the wire.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I wonder how hard it would be to just pull a heavier wire for the shop sub-panel.


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

toolguy1000 said:


> Agree totally re start up surge. I'm referring to FLA. A 30 panel cannot deliver more than 30a of current. Amperage is not additive across poles. Whatever the voltage, if the load exceeds the breaker rating, it should trip to protect the wire.


I dont have time to explain it in extreme detail right now, and haven't gotten much sleep the last couple of days so my discriptions may not be the best but bear with me. 220V electrical service consists of 2 poles, each measured 110v compared to ground. These poles have a sine curve exactly out of phase from each other, meaning that when pole A is at it's max positive voltage pole B is at it's max negative voltage, thus giving you 220v. A 220 v circuit uses both poles to provide 220v, and a 20A circuit can handle a max load of 20A, loading both poles of the breaker to 20A. A 220v device uses the 2 hot wires to carry the electrical load. A 120v device uses one hot wire and the neutral to carry the load. This means that a 120v circuit only taxes one pole of the 2 pole breaker. If you have an identical 120v circuit hooked up to the other pole in the breaker panel, it will tax the other pole and also return on the neutral. Now, each pole will be loaded at 20A, using all 20A of 220v. And since the 120v poles are exactly out of phase, the return on one neutral wire will be taken up from the neutral wire of the opposing circuit, leaving 0 electrical load on the neutral wire feeding the panel. In this respect, the 2 poles in the panel can be additive, but not for a single circuit.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

toolguy1000 said:


> Agree totally re start up surge. I'm referring to FLA. A 30 panel cannot deliver more than 30a of current. Amperage is not additive across poles. Whatever the voltage, if the load exceeds the breaker rating, it should trip to protect the wire.


Not to be argumentative, but yes, it can. although it requires an additional transformer. I keep on hand several up/down transformers. With a 240 primary and a 120 secondary, I have 60 amps of 120 available.

In addition if I have an appliance/tool, whatever on a 120 volt circuit drawing 30 amps, and another one on a second circuit drawing 30 amps, I technically am drawing 60 amps of 120 volt current.

Also, again getting technical, a circuit breaker can supply more than it's rated current for a period of time. A 30 amp breaker might supply 30.5 amps for some amount of time before it trips, possibly even hours. At 31 amps, the period is shorter. And the time at a given overload will vary with the temperature of the breaker & panel. In an unheated shop at say 20° F, it will take a lot longer to trip on a given overload than it will at say 80°.

A lot of what we are getting into here is semantics. There are general rules of thumb that gelled over the years that are "best practice" and should generally be adhered to unless one really knows what one is about.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I wonder how hard it would be to just pull a heavier wire for the shop sub-panel.



45' of 10G UF buried 2' deep under a patio makes it a little unfeasible.


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