# Continuous 3/4" Dovetail required in the back of molding or trim



## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

I need to find the most efficient and cost effective way to cut in a 3/4" wide by 3/16" deep and 14 degree dovetail in the back face of nearly all conventional wooden or mdf molding or trim. I expect to machine cut a dovetail into thousands or possibly millions of feet of molding/casing/baseboards/crown molding/wainscotting/trim and I have to find something that will do this for me. A multi spindle moulder could likely do it, but expect it to be the most expensive. I'm thinking maybe a table saw in line with a router/shaper and cut a 5/8" dado with the table saw and then directly in line cut out the wings of the dovetail with the router/shaper bit. Initially thinking of only cutting in the dovetail in already profiled trim and not interested in making completely new trim from rough stock. Any ideas?


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## Johnny5 (Mar 7, 2014)

No clue of the best way to accomplish this, but your saw/router way sounds pretty good. There must be a machine already designed for this type of cut, most cabinet crown has a tongue cut in one of the back flats to accept the groove from various complimentary moldings. 

Millions of feet is a lot of feet, you've piqued my curiosity. What do you need to cut the dovetail for?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

We have an introduction section where you can say a few words about yourself. If you fill out your profile in your "User Control Panel", you can list any hobbies, experience or other facts. You can also list your general geographical location which would be a help in answering some questions. In doing that your location will show under your username when you post. 













 








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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

simtrim said:


> I need to find the most efficient and cost effective way to cut in a 3/4" wide by 3/16" deep and 14 degree dovetail in the back face of nearly all conventional wooden or mdf molding or trim. I expect to machine cut a dovetail into thousands or possibly millions of feet of molding/casing/baseboards/crown molding/wainscotting/trim and I have to find something that will do this for me. A multi spindle moulder could likely do it, but expect it to be the most expensive. I'm thinking maybe a table saw in line with a router/shaper and cut a 5/8" dado with the table saw and then directly in line cut out the wings of the dovetail with the router/shaper bit. Initially thinking of only cutting in the dovetail in already profiled trim and not interested in making completely new trim from rough stock. Any ideas?


...with power drives. sounds like a plan.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm not debating your need....but if your doing millions of lineal feet custom designed equipment is the best case scenario. For millions of feet....the mill cutting the moulding should be doing it when they cut the moulding....


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

First of all I have a patent in the U.S. and Canada with respect to a method of installing nearly all flat backed molding and trim by means of my patented snap system and all I need is the referenced 3/4" dovetail to make it work. I've gone to major manufacturers of molding in Canada and they indicated that they could all cut in a dovetail groove as I require and it would be basically done for free but they need someone to ask for it first. I then went to some of the major hardware stores in Canada and showed them my invention and they all thought it was a great idea and they may carry the product but they would need someone to supply molding and trim with the dovetail groove in the back. As you can see I'm in a "catch 22". The hardware stores indicated that they would need to get people (maybe developers) to order the molding with the groove in the back and they would then order it that way from their suppliers. I'm thinking that if I can mass produce the groove in pre-purchased molding I can get the idea out there and if the idea is accepted by the masses the hardware stores will order the molding in that manner. Since the groove really won't affect the integrity of about 75% of the available wood or mdf molding on the market, I would like modify as much molding as is possible with the dovetail groove in the back and see if I can maybe initially be the supply to the hardware stores. Any home handy person can use my system today if they have a 3/4" x 14 degree wing router bit and a router table with some type of hold down. When the patented system is in place, no more brad nails required and the molding becomes totally removable and replaceable at any time. Painting is 100% easier and cleaner, changing flooring easier, put wires behind baseboards, re-use all molding instead of wrecking it when you take it off, etc..


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## Pauley (Jan 21, 2012)

simtrim said:


> First of all I have a patent in the U.S. and Canada with respect to a method of installing nearly all flat backed molding and trim by means of my patented snap system and all I need is the referenced 3/4" dovetail to make it work. I've gone to major manufacturers of molding in Canada and they indicated that they could all cut in a dovetail groove as I require and it would be basically done for free but they need someone to ask for it first. I then went to some of the major hardware stores in Canada and showed them my invention and they all thought it was a great idea and they may carry the product but they would need someone to supply molding and trim with the dovetail groove in the back. As you can see I'm in a "catch 22". The hardware stores indicated that they would need to get people (maybe developers) to order the molding with the groove in the back and they would then order it that way from their suppliers. I'm thinking that if I can mass produce the groove in pre-purchased molding I can get the idea out there and if the idea is accepted by the masses the hardware stores will order the molding in that manner. Since the groove really won't affect the integrity of about 75% of the available wood or mdf molding on the market, I would like modify as much molding as is possible with the dovetail groove in the back and see if I can maybe initially be the supply to the hardware stores. Any home handy person can use my system today if they have a 3/4" x 14 degree wing router bit and a router table with some type of hold down. When the patented system is in place, no more brad nails required and the molding becomes totally removable and replaceable at any time. Painting is 100% easier and cleaner, changing flooring easier, put wires behind baseboards, re-use all molding instead of wrecking it when you take it off, etc..


If they need someone to ask for it, ask the hardware store that said they would carry it to ask them..no?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Honestly, it's a difficult segment to change as the majority of trim is installed by tradesman rather than consumers. Sounds nifty....but it's going to be a hard sell I suspect.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Ryan is right that a whole segment may have to change for people to go for the system. Even though my system is very easy to work with and install, probably 90% of the population would still require a skilled tradesman to install the trim initially. I guess I should be aiming this system at finishing carpenters. The trim still has to be cut as you would normally cut it and most people are scared of making mistakes or not capable of making it look good when they're done. If I could get tradespeople asking for the product at hardware stores it would likely help. To see the system just web search simtrim molding systems and my web site will come up. If I could afford to make my own trim with the dovetail groove from scratch with a complex moulder, I'm pretty sure I could market the product direct to the hardware stores. As it sits right now I'll keep investigating ways of making an accurate and inexpensive way of making the dovetails (besides strictly using a router). Thanks for the comments.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The problem I see is if your buying trim, and then modifying it, your costs are going to be much higher than regular trim. That's not counting in the cost of the mounting hardware. Realistically, what are you looking at for a premium over standard installation trim? 100% or more?


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

I'm hoping that I would be able to buy wholesale from the manufacturers, cut in the dovetail and then take as small of a mark up as possible to get it on the market. I can't expect people to want to pay a lot more for it especially when the potential would be there for the original manufacturers to basically do it with no extra cost and then sell it through the hard ware stores. I would be making money on my two part snap system that goes with the trim and at least kick start that. Not really sure what to do???


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there's not an easy answer because...*

There is not an easy answer.
You can't get the mills to add an operation that costs them tooling and time, unless they are made a "partner" on the profit on the sale of the attachment system....
You can't provide the molding unless the mills will make it OR you can modify existing moldings.
You can't create a demand for the molding without a serious marketing plan... go on the Sharks program on TV and get a financial backer?
Hardware stores seem to be a limited market, since lumberyards and mills supply most of the trim and moldings in the USA.
If you do create a demand, who will supply the product... you... or a mill?
Can you warehouse millions of feet of molding or would it be an "on demand" situation?
Do you want to go into the molding business?

Since you have the patent, why go go directly to a mill/supplier and let them in on the concept and let them make you an offer in cash or a percentage... :blink:


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## harry nuckle (Feb 23, 2012)

If the moulding suppliers will do it for free if someone asks for it then why dont you just ask for it? Im sure you will have to order a large quantity but thats kinda part of the deal. It sounds like your system is going to be more of a diy customer base rather than a contractor customer base because thats just not the kind of stuff we do. Not that its a bad thing diy is HUGE right now. Good luck on your ventures!!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dave
I would suggest using a molding machine to hog out the mass and two other heads to cut the dove tails. You will have to invest in a molding head grinder so you can keep your cutters sharp. One that can sharpen carbide because HSS cutters will not last through a single run. 

You need a dust collection system because molding machines won't operate without one. A big one.

We used a Weinig they make a mid sized machine and sell the grinder too. They came over and taught our guys how to use the machine. Pretty fair priced machines.

Do you have any trim guys wanting this system? What are the advantages over nailing it on?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

Make a YouTube video (with high production value) showing the merits of your system. Go to all the trade shows you can afford to cover and demo your system. Place ads in mags that cater to the craft and not the homeowners. Send some samples to respected reviewers, like Gary Katz, in the trades and see what they say about your system. 

I would think all of that would be cheaper than buying relatively expensive equipment, not to mention learning to run and running that equipment effectively, maintaining costly inventory, and the all the time to get out and sell the trim.

Just my opinion,

Paul


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Personally I have my doubts there is a market for this application. If the OP would be so kind as to explain the merit and rewards for this system I'd love to hear about it.

Having your own equipment shows the public you are there to provide a service and a product. If he had the machinery. Installers could bring their material and in and in no time have it molded and sent on their way. 

I've brought new ideas to the table before and there is a right way to do it and one that gets no response.

1) Showing your new idea and expecting the industry to take hold of it is the worst approach. I had a new idea for a machine and the last thing I did was tell them what it was.
2) Touting the system as better is also a mistake. I asked if I could come up with an idea to save time and money, would they be interested. 
3) Know the dollars end of it. How much will it cost to start up, build, operate and how long before you see a profit?
4) Who is your market? How will you gain your share of the market? Is there a market to begin with? These are questions that need to look great in order for you to convince others to part with their cash and invest.
5) When there is a favorable answer to these questions. That's the time to start planning and spending. Other wise your going to just be wasting your time.

BTW Had I told them what the machine was. It never would have got off the ground. When I did disclose what I had in mind there were doubts but I had pointed out the cost, time savings and the better product results first and that's what they were after. Not another widget. 

Al B Thayer

Nails only hold themselves.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Application aside and to answer your question,I would use use a shaper with a power feed.No reason to hog out the waste on anything else.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mako1 said:


> Application aside and to answer your question,I would use use a shaper with a power feed.No reason to hog out the waste on anything else.


Going to be really hard to cut a dovetail on a shaper. Quite impossible.

Most molding is cut with progressive cutters. This increases the run time between sharpening cutters. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Johnny5 (Mar 7, 2014)

Interesting concept, I bet IKEA would love it...

Can't view the videos on your website, so how do you set the height of each of these snaps? Is there a jig or fixture? What happens if one or more snaps is slightly out of line with the rest? 

On door casing especially, how are out of plane conditions dealt with? Many times the face of drywall isn't on the same plane as the face of the door jamb, so the trim always gets nailed to the wall and the casing, in some cases drywall may need to be hogged out to get a nice flat install. Since your system only attaches one snap to the drywall face, how are gaps at the jamb addressed? What if the drywall around the door is in poor condition (as it usually is)?

Since stained trim makes up a VERY small portion of interior trim, how would paint grade molding be caulked to the wall and still remain removable? Painted molding can't be left un-caulked, the shadows from gaps at the wall would look hideous and no respected carpenter, or painter for that matter, would put his/her name on that job. 

There is no such thing as a straight wall, so how are bows and crowns dealt with on long runs of trim? Do the snaps hold tight enough for irregularities? 

And if the trim still needs to be cut the conventional way (coped inside and carefully measured and mitered outside corners) that kind of takes out the DIYer that is afraid of cutting trim. Pus, as a carpenter that does install trim, if a homeowner came to me and wanted me to install this system, my price and project duration would be double or triple a standard trim job. Add to that the likely much higher material cost and you've removed any kind of economical reason for the system.

Seems like a neat idea if absolutely every aspect of construction was perfectly crafted in some kind of bubble, with no irregularities or unseen circumstances to deal with. Maybe I'm just too old skool, but seems a lot easier to shoot a brad nail than spend the time trying to make this nice, neat system fit into a not so nice and neat world. 

But anyway, good luck!


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Going to be really hard to cut a dovetail on a shaper. Quite impossible.
> 
> Most molding is cut with progressive cutters. This increases the run time between sharpening cutters.
> 
> ...


 I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say progressive cutters?How about molding knives?Impossible to cut a sliding dovetail on a shaper?
Ridiculous!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mako1 said:


> I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say progressive cutters?How about molding knives?Impossible to cut a sliding dovetail on a shaper?
> Ridiculous!


Progressive cutters are used to lessen the load on the profile cutter. A molding machine can have many spindles. The first are used to get the exact thickness, width and shape. Leaving the profile cutter to cut a smaller amount of the wood thereby reducing the ware on the profile head. Molder heads require sharpening on the profile unlike a router bit that is ground on the flat side. This type of sharpening is time consuming and requires a skilled person. Therefore when possible, taking the load off the profile cutter saves time and money.

A shaper has a vertical cutter with a nut on the top of the spindle. The dovetail profile cuts on three sides at a 14 degree angle on two sides. If there was a cutter shaped like a dovetail. How do you get past the nut on the top? I own two shapers. If I could cut a dovetail on the shaper I would. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Al B Thayer: Sorry for being so abrupt.Had a long day and should have explained further.I am also familiar with shapers as I have a Weaver Door System consisting of three shapers and another Powermatic 1 1/4 " spindle shaper that accepts a collet for router bits in the top of the spindle.Most people are not familiar with these.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mako1 said:


> Al B Thayer: Sorry for being so abrupt.Had a long day and should have explained further.I am also familiar with shapers as I have a Weaver Door System consisting of three shapers and another Powermatic 1 1/4 " spindle shaper that accepts a collet for router bits in the top of the spindle.Most people are not familiar with these.


I tried spinning a router bit in one of my shapers too. But it doesn't have the speed required. If it excepted a 1/2" shank I might get way with spinning a monster bit but I doubt the speed would be there for that either.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

mako1 said:


> Impossible to cut a sliding dovetail on a shaper? Ridiculous!


How can you cut an undercut or dovetail on a shaper with the typical arbor lock nut on top? The only way I know is to install a router collet and use a dove tail bit in the shaper, but then you have the issue of speeds. Shapers I'm familar with have a 7,000 RPM and a 10,000 RPM speed, neither of which is suitable for a 3/4" dia router bit, in my opinion. I really don't think the shaper is the answer to this issue. :no:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Agreed. A shaper is a terrible solution for this


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

You guys know the OP is long gone and we keep hashing this out as if he gives a horses hind end. When we started asking the tough questions he's no where to be found. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> How can you cut an undercut or dovetail on a shaper with the typical arbor lock nut on top? The only way I know is to install a router collet and use a dove tail bit in the shaper, but then you have the issue of speeds. Shapers I'm familar with have a 7,000 RPM and a 10,000 RPM speed, neither of which is suitable for a 3/4" dia router bit, in my opinion. I really don't think the shaper is the answer to this issue. :no:


I hear an echo.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

I haven't had a chance to reply because I wasn't near a computer all week end. There have been a lot of useful comments and questions posted on this thread and here are some comments on most of them. A couple of years ago I auditioned for a show called Dragon’s Den in Canada (equivalent to Shark Tank) and the lady that interviewed me indicated that my patent and system is one of the better ones she had ever seen but because I had no sales they definitely couldn’t put me on the show. With my kids finally getting mostly through University I see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for maybe some extra time and money to dabble with the invention. I haven’t the cash to have a special commercial building for holding large wood working equipment and I don’t have under cover storage area for large amounts of molding either. I don’t feel compelled to rent a large expensive space as well unless I have an idea of what can happen in the future. The large molders that could do a dovetail would have to be ones with at least two universal spindles and in my research it looks like it would have to be a specialty item put together for this application and it sounds very expensive to start with. Unless I have deep pockets I would like to start out small and work my way up from there. Right now I’m trying to manufacture my male screw snaps likely in Asia somewhere and I’m trying to refine my original design to make it as perfect as possible. I’m, happy with my first kick at them with local manufacturers, but I’m thinking it will save me a bunch of cash and hopefully make some mods that I would like on the new versions. The female plastic snap components I get made with my own mold (that I had made to prove up my invention) and if this thing ever flies I’ll have to be making larger multi cavity molds for them as well. I am selling my current versions of both the male and female snap components the way they are and although they aren’t perfect yet, they do a fairly good job. I will sell/send them anywhere requiring them.
I do have a pretty crappy homemade youtube video which I made a couple years ago. You can find it under youtube if you type in Removable and Replaceable Molding and Trim System. It’s a poor attempt at describing what the system does, but it will give you an idea. I’ve tried my system on just about any type of situation including baseboards, casings of all types, wainscoting and crown molding and it works great on all of them. A question was asked whether an uneven wall or wallboard poses a problem, but if you can approximate a close fit with brad nails you can do the same with this system. If you need to hog out material around a door jamb or window sill for the brad nail install you would do the same thing for this system. I find that my system will have more flexibility than brad nailing especially in cases where the jamb sticks out quite far from the wallboard. In this case you adjust the snap screw to its proper position and it gives the molding more backing. I have a jig or gauge in mind that I would use with the system for installing the male screws to the proper height but I find the best thing is to take an actual piece of the desired molding to use as a guide. You simply place the molding at each position that you wish to place a screw and then adjust the screw height such that the top of the head barely touches the bottom of the dovetail. With respect to cost I would wager that my system won’t cost very much more than conventional brad installs, if at all. Using my system the molding is already pre-finished and when it’s snapped on you’re done. With a conventional system you brad nail, over punch, fill holes, sand off, refinish and normally all of this requires a skilled trades person and time is money. The benefits of my system are obvious as there are no blemishes on the front faces of molding when you are done and I’ve proven many times over that my snap system holds the molding as well to the mounting surface as compared to brad nails. You have to remember that molding and trim is purely cosmetic and never is intended for structural strength of walls etc.. All we are ever doing is covering the gaps between door and window jambs and the wall and flooring. My system can be used where you have metal studs behind wall board (something you can’t use brads on) and I think a lot of commercial building should be using this method instead of gluing on rubber trim, etc.. Painting always looks more professional if you can remove the molding before hand so every five years or so the paint job is almost cut in two with the time savings plus no damage or mess to the walls or the molding. Crown molding is super easy with my system and completely clean. All you need to do is rip a 2 x 4 the same angle as flat backed crown, attach this continuous angled piece on the wall and with a dovetail in the back of the crown molding you just snap it on. With only one miter cut between sets of corners you end up with a crown you can remove at any time. Painting next to stippling is not fun, but if you can remove the crown molding it is easy. I'm hoping that once I get the system bought into by the public I can then start making other snap components that work with the dovetail groove and this could include outside corners etc.. I’ve handmade some of these components with simple hand tools and have demonstrated that they work great. As long as a dovetail is installed in the back of anything flat I can attach molding to any flat wall. Molding could then be made of anything that the groove will be able to utilize such as wood, mdf, plastic, aluminum, stainless steel, etc.. I have a feeling that the large molding manufacturers don't see much upside in their business if consumers are able to re-use their trim over and over and therefore some reduction in sales for them. Have you ever gone past anyone's place when they are renovating and noticed that the main thing that they throw out is normally their old molding and trim? I know that once you've attached mdf with brads, within a few days the brads are impossible to pull out and you have no choice but to cut them off behind the trim and install new brads. It is no wonder that the majority of old mdf gets taken to landfills. So far it sounds like a shaper is not such a good idea for cutting in dovetails. I've talked with a local equipment rep and they were thinking a 5/8" x 3/16" deep dado cut in a table saw and then attach a jig behind the dado blade. The router would have to be adjustable such that it is centered directly behind the blade and I would be getting an industrial router with 3/4" bit. I'm assuming that this may be the easiest/cheapest way to set up for moderate sized jobs. I'm thinking of installing an extended fence that covers both machines and then an automatic feeder that also goes over blade and bit.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

*Shapers for cutting dovetails*



Al B Thayer said:


> Progressive cutters are used to lessen the load on the profile cutter. A molding machine can have many spindles. The first are used to get the exact thickness, width and shape. Leaving the profile cutter to cut a smaller amount of the wood thereby reducing the ware on the profile head. Molder heads require sharpening on the profile unlike a router bit that is ground on the flat side. This type of sharpening is time consuming and requires a skilled person. Therefore when possible, taking the load off the profile cutter saves time and money.
> 
> A shaper has a vertical cutter with a nut on the top of the spindle. The dovetail profile cuts on three sides at a 14 degree angle on two sides. If there was a cutter shaped like a dovetail. How do you get past the nut on the top? I own two shapers. If I could cut a dovetail on the shaper I would.
> 
> ...



Al, 

Do you know of, or heard of any shapers that are available that would have dual spindles on the same machine that could have one tilted towards the back of molding by 14 degrees and one tilted away from the back of molding at 14 degrees and with each blade angled 14 degrees to vertical thereby with different length knives on each spindle a same depth could be reached and a dovetail could be made in one pass?

Dave


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## MTL (Jan 21, 2012)

I have zero experience in production manufacturing with wood. However, I audit a lot of machine shops that make aircraft parts like helicopter transmissions etc. Working wood and metal are significantly different but there are some similarities. So here goes my thoughts: (Oh, I also do some lean and six sigma stuff (fun...).

In my opinion a dovetail bit in a router, industrial strength or not, would cut slower than your dado blade making the initial grove. Any objections there? If that is the case then the routing operation would be your throughput bottleneck. So my idea, two specialty made saw blades. If you think about it, it is kind of already done with some of the nicer saw blades on the market with three types of teeth, two alternately angled and a chip out blade. If you have a blade manufactured with a 14 degree angle on the edge then in run it in a saw tilted at 14 degrees you would get the angled side with a flat top. Obviously you would need a second exact opposite set up. So you would essentially be running over three table saws in line. If you went into mass production this could certainly be built into a single machine. Trying to get three table saws in perfect alignment, although possible, would be a PITA.

Anyway, with all three machines capable of cutting at the same rate you would not have a bottleneck.

Now onto other comments, I looked at your page. It appears that the female snaps float in the dovetail. Are they difficult to get lined up with the male snaps?

I personally would not be a buyer of your system at this point, but who knows, I don't always like everything from the get go. Sometimes things have to grow on me. That said, I admire you for coming up with a solid invention and going after your dream.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It's about the nut on top ....*

http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-HP-Professional-Tilting-Spindle-Shaper-Z-Series/G5913Z

Grizzly has a tilting arbor shaper, but I doubt you can get what you want on a shaper because of the arbor nut. A router table with a dovetail bit is the most direct way in my opinion. I would saw a clean out kerf first then run the dovetail with a stock feeder. A "trapped" cutter tends to overheat if not kept free of dust. Some shops use a continuous blast of air to remove the dust.

Part of the "design process" is the ability of the inventor/designer/engineer to incorporate the manufacturing method into the design in an econoical manner. A great design concept without a economical means of production runs the risk of stagnation. We can't put the cart before the horse, they have to work together seamlessly. Thousands/millions of feet of dovetail may be easy to visualize, but hard to accomplish in reality as you are finding out. Several hundred is much easier. I believe there is/was an Industrial Design class titled Design for Manufacturing which I didn't take at the time. ...probably would have been a good idea....:yes:

The post above reminded my of a You Tube I saw where the guy had replaced the shaper cutter with a 12" or larger saw blade and made a resaw "of sorts". No guard and it was scary to watch, third world woodworking I think, but a tilting arbor shaper could accomplish the same as the idea posted above..... maybe?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

With this unit you can set them up to do special tasks for next to nothing. I built a shaper with one about 25 years ago. They have been supplying the industry with spindles for a long time. You will do better on the price to buy it from another supplier though.
http://woodworker.com/1-shaper-spindle-mssu-626-057.asp

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dave
If it were me. I would offer to "convert" material into your system rather than try to manufacture and stock the hundreds of profiles that are out there. Some big builders have their own profiles. It would be maddening trying to match up and stay abreast of all that's out there.

Colonel Sanders started by going to different restaurants that served fried chicken and showed them how to do it his way. He didn't build the stores and hope the people came. He went right into my friends restaurant and set up his cooker and convinced him on the spot on Sunday morning. He went to trade shows and set up and convinced the people to get into it. That's how The guy that started Wendy's got his start. Dave Thomas was into KFC first. My point is your not going to get people to change the way they install and the profile they use at the same time. 

Sanders didn't say he had a better chicken. He said step aside and watch how I do this and see what the people say after I'm finished. He came in and took over the kitchen, set up and let it fly. My friends cook said that contraption is going to blow, I'm out of here. Sanders did this with a few key restaurants and planted his system and it took off. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

MTL said:


> I have zero experience in production manufacturing with wood. However, I audit a lot of machine shops that make aircraft parts like helicopter transmissions etc. Working wood and metal are significantly different but there are some similarities. So here goes my thoughts: (Oh, I also do some lean and six sigma stuff (fun...).
> 
> In my opinion a dovetail bit in a router, industrial strength or not, would cut slower than your dado blade making the initial grove. Any objections there? If that is the case then the routing operation would be your throughput bottleneck. So my idea, two specialty made saw blades. If you think about it, it is kind of already done with some of the nicer saw blades on the market with three types of teeth, two alternately angled and a chip out blade. If you have a blade manufactured with a 14 degree angle on the edge then in run it in a saw tilted at 14 degrees you would get the angled side with a flat top. Obviously you would need a second exact opposite set up. So you would essentially be running over three table saws in line. If you went into mass production this could certainly be built into a single machine. Trying to get three table saws in perfect alignment, although possible, would be a PITA.
> 
> ...


Mike,

Thanks for the ideas. I have thought of running two table saws in line (I don't think I would need three) and you can buy ones that have opposite tilt. All I would need then is to have dado blades for each about 3/8" to 1/2" thick and angled at 14 degrees (each ground at an opposite 14 degree angle) and then line the two saws up so that the two would make a 3/4" dovetail. I could use a common fence for both and everything would be lined up. Would just have to be careful to make sure alignment of the two blades creates the right width of dovetail. This option would probably be the fastest cutter. The straight dado idea with a dovetail bit behind it would give you the bigger comfort zone for making sure the dovetail was close to the right width. With respect to my patented plastic disk that I designed, it is flat on two sides which allows you to place/drop this female snap part anywhere you want in the groove and it is oblong one way, so when you turn it clockwise it tightens inside the groove. The dovetail doesn't even have to be accurately cut to 3/4", but the closer the better. Lining up the male with female components is important, but really not very hard. When I do it I only place the molding against the wall for where it is desired and then holding it against the wall at points where it looks like I need support I make a small pencil mark on the wall and then measure down or across to a point that matches with center line of the dovetail. This may sound complicated, but it only takes seconds per mark. If anyone wants to buy them, I am providing thumb tacks with foam centering washers that fit inside each female snap and when you put this against the wall it will mark the exact position of the where you install the screw. These thumb tacks can be used over and over because they are only used for marking positions of the screws. The objective is to screw in your male snap completely perpendicular to the wall and it has to be pretty well perpendicular to get proper engagement. The only part of the job you have to make sure you are good at is screwing in the male snap part straight into the wall. The good thing is, if you messed up with the screw angle you can always remove the screw and move over to either side and redo it. The system is so simple in concept and it works every time. I find that on average you could put the snaps every foot or so. If the wall is really straight you could go as far apart as 2 feet or if you have a really crooked wall you could put them as close together as you need to. For wainscoting you would only need to put them in each stud (16"). Baseboards are the hardest to install only because it is hard to get a power driver to install a screw about 3/4" away from the floor surface (their drive diameter is usually too big) and make the screw square to the wall. I've found that the best thing to use is a right angle attachment that you can buy at practically any hardware store as it even helps you line up the screw closer to perpendicular.

Dave


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Scary...?*



woodnthings said:


> http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-HP-Professional-Tilting-Spindle-Shaper-Z-Series/G5913Z
> 
> 
> The post above reminded my of a You Tube I saw where the guy had replaced the shaper cutter with a 12" or larger saw blade and made a resaw "of sorts". No guard and it was scary to watch, third world woodworking I think, but a tilting arbor shaper could accomplish the same as the idea posted above..... maybe?


Scary or NOT ....


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## MTL (Jan 21, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Scary or NOT ....
> 
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiJGmwyYK8k&feature=player_embedded


Lil bit yep!


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Definitely looks scary to me.
I would use a stock feeder with an insert planed to the same thickness as the saw kerf for the 2cd cut.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I've set up long run molding jobs in my younger years. None of these wild ideas were even considered. Until you understand the amount of cutting that goes on and how long the cutter stays sharp. How much dust is generated and how important it is to remove 99% of it. You will probably keep looking for a different way to set it up. There is a reason those that are in the molding business do it like they do.

Best of luck

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree with you Al......to be in the moulding business......you need custom built equipment that is built to make moulding....


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## WBB (Mar 29, 2014)

I would suggest you ditch the snaps and use some type of spring steel clips instead. Those snaps are awful.


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## BanditGTP (Dec 6, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> I agree with you Al......to be in the moulding business......you need custom built equipment that is built to make moulding....


My father worked at a machine shop making moulding for approx 30 yrs. They had probably 6-8 moulding machines and each machine had 4 heads in order to shape all 4 sides of the lumber in one pass. If I remember correctly, each head could have 4-8 blades in it and they could last a few days between sharpening depending on what type of would they were cutting. My father would personally run 6000+ ft through his machine in a single day. 

I don't think they ever would have gotten anything done by "rigging" something up with 2 table saws in line and then possibly a router or shaper at the end of the line.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

BanditGTP said:


> My father worked at a machine shop making moulding for approx 30 yrs. They had probably 6-8 moulding machines and each machine had 4 heads in order to shape all 4 sides of the lumber in one pass. If I remember correctly, each head could have 4-8 blades in it and they could last a few days between sharpening depending on what type of would they were cutting. My father would personally run 6000+ ft through his machine in a single day.
> 
> I don't think they ever would have gotten anything done by "rigging" something up with 2 table saws in line and then possibly a router or shaper at the end of the line.


Woodworking machines like this can be bought used for pennies on the dollar. 

I think the biggest problem with the system isn't in the machinery. The OP has painted an unrealistic picture of the current way molding is installed and vague explanation of how his system is better. If there was a current problem with the way molding is installed today. His approach to the "problem" might be a welcome to the installers and suppliers. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

No offense intended to the inventor here....but the whole idea seems very "as seen on TV". I just don't see a commercial value to it....but I do wish you the best of luck.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

I agree with all comments posted with respect to whether the public will ever go for the idea, it's a stretch to think I will get all new molding made with a dovetail in the back face. When I invented/patented my ideas on making molding removable and replaceable, my intent as an inventor was to improve existing systems. I grew up on a small mixed farm in the woodlands of Canada and necessity is the mother or of invention. In the late seventies I painted our local country school inside and out as a summer job before University and we found that it took 50 to 60 % of our time to mask, prep and then unmask unprep when we painted. The vast majority of our prepping had to do with all molding in general. Even though we thought we did a great job masking etc. the jobs looked basically crappy and when we were done there was always paint bleeding under the masking, paint getting pulled off of the walls etc.. If you go to anyone's residence in the world and see what their paint jobs look like I can guarantee that you will see re-painting mistakes all over (a new house looks perfect if it's the first paint job because the molding is put on over top of new paint and the molding has had its first refinishing after the brads holes are filled/sanded). When you do pull of molding there is a very high possibility that you will damage it enough that any individual piece may have to get replaced and in particular I've had cases where the damaged molding is not commercially available anymore meaning that you have to install all new molding. This is especially the case with nearly all mdf which is attached using brad nails. A simple floor change could turn into a complete molding replacement as well. I decided back when I was a kid that someone had to invent a way to make molding removable and replaceable and thereby get rid of all the nuisance of masking. With the system I've developed any home handy person can make their existing or new molding removable and replaceable. All a person needs to do to use my two part snap system is to make a dovetail groove in the flat back of molding is to use a router, router table, some type of hold down device and a standard 3/4" dovetail bit. Years later after owning four houses and doing multiple renovations on other owner's house (mostly family) there are so many other evident advantages of having removable and replaceable molding that you can't even number them. Imagine how easy it would be to wallpaper a wall or whole room if you could just pop off all your trim in the room. The wallpaper could be cut completely crooked or whatever behind the trim and it would look absolutely flawless when the trim is snapped back on. The vast majority of molding that purposely gets removed and then put back on the most often would be baseboards, as this occurs when flooring is changed, etc.. I've been in a couple of home and garden shows with my invention as part of my display and nobody really knows what I'm up to with it until I show them my working prototypes and after they all see what the system accomplishes they all wonder why the system isn't on the market. When I describe to them that there has to be a dovetail in the back of molding before it works, probably 95% of the people are basically turned off because they are likely not capable of installing their own dovetail groove. I've gotten to the point where I'm prepared to put the dovetail groove in the back of molding for those people that are interested (local people only) and then even install the molding for them if I have to. I'm a full time consulting Oil and Gas Engineer so its a pretty hard sell to give up a big wage on an hourly job to do this, but for now it would be weekends or week nights. If I had tons of cash laying around I would probably take a kick at making my own molding, but that brings me back to the reason I'm looking for a way of easily cutting in many feet of dovetail in already pre-made molding because it may be easier to invest with a smaller amount of cash in it right away instead of buying big expensive equipment.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dave
While I can see where you want to go with this and understand you feel there is a market. The reasons for having removable molding don't add up. 

It's faster and far less trouble installing wall paper without taking the molding off and putting it back on. Wall paper isn't that popular anymore.

Nailing molding doesn't require filling and sanding. If its paint grade. They fill the hole and wipe it smooth at the same time. It takes less than 2 minutes per room. If its stain grade they use a matching fill stick and wipe it with a rag. It's invisible.

Paint grade molding is installed before the painter paints the wall. They paint the wall and spray everything. This becomes the primer for the molding. Then without masking off they spray the molding and doors their color. All that's left is cutting in the wall at the molding. When it's installed they don't even try to hit studs. They just shoot their wire nail into the drywall. Same for crown. It's going to be a hard sell to get them to use your system. 

I'm not trying to be a buzzkill. Just pointing out where you may be overlooking something. 

Have you looked at used industrial molders. Pennies on the dollar.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Dave
> While I can see where you want to go with this and understand you feel there is a market. The reasons for having removable molding don't add up.
> 
> It's faster and far less trouble installing wall paper without taking the molding off and putting it back on. Wall paper isn't that popular anymore.
> ...


Al,
I'm coming more from the stand point of a home owner who does absolutely all maintenance and work around the home. From a developer standpoint you are right, shoot in brad nails and leave the new home as it sits in its new state to the home owner. It's much quicker and less work and a bit less money for them. I would challenge anyone, including the absolute best house painters in the world to do a better job painting any room if they painted a room with trim on versus me painting with trim off. To me it's a question of quality. In five years your new home has to be painted and then what do you do. In the high end homes in our area most people still prefer a wood grain finish in the molding so therefore you have to cut in or mask the molding and this is my primary focus. I can go into absolutely any home in the world with fixed nailed on molding and find tons of painting errors involving the molding. If you talk to any home owner that does their own painting ask them and they'll say that the thing they are most mad about with painting is the prep work. With the pre-painted molding it is also practically impossible to get a smooth paint job on your trim right next to the floor and again every home I've been in where they've painted the baseboards at the same time as the wall the paint job next to the floor looks terrible. With most of the new homes that have strictly mdf they are now caulking the narrow gap above the baseboards because the brad system doesn't pull in the tall baseboards tight enough to the wall. My system sucks that board right against the wall and therefore no caulking is required. In these installations, if you ever decide to change flooring etc. you basically have to toss the baseboards and quite often the walls get damaged as well (because of caulking removal) and then you have to repair the walls as well. I would say that over the life time of a house, which is many many years longer than just the developers 5 minutes of fame, a removable system would be far more economic. If your molding is removable you can paint designs or paint different colors on molding versus the wall color (you can take your molding into the garage and do a perfectly smooth paint or stain job on them before you pop them back on). What interior designer wouldn't see the huge benefit of adding designer colors by simply working separately with the molding versus the wall? With removable baseboards you can cut in extra grooves if you want or run electric wires behind the trim and/or run the wires behind the trim and under the wallboard. The list of advantages goes on and on. I knew right from the start that it won't be an easy sell to sell people on a system that they aren't familiar with and I have to get rid of the stigma that the old way is the only way. I definitely won't be quitting my day job anytime soon, but am hoping that there are some do it your-selfers out there that will see it the way I do.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I might approach it in a different manner*

Problem statement: Create a system of attachment and removal for wood molding ranging in width from 1 1/2" to 3" which allows for slight variations in the wall plane and the height of the fastners, if any.

Several ideas come to mind. 
Ball stud and socket/hole.
Keyhole slot and screw.
Clip and rail.
Cleat and rail.
Rabbet and spring clip.
Super/rare earth magnets with screw heads in the wall.
and so on......

Based on your lengthy description, I would NOT have a design that requires a difficult process to manufacture without very specialized tooling. It would be a DIY install from the start, no additional manufacturing steps. That's my free advice, take it for what it's worth... This may also be a solution in search of a problem, I donno? :blink:


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## Johnny5 (Mar 7, 2014)

The issue I still see is caulking paint grade molding. You state that the current installation method requires a caulked joint between surfaces purely because the "brads don't pull the molding tight to the wall". This is simply not the case. Without a caulked edge between the wall and molding, a paint grade molding will always show an unsightly shadow line. No wall is ever perfectly straight, nor is any ceiling flat. Painted molding, IMPO, will always need to be caulked to the surface it is mounted to. It just looks much cleaner. 

Plus, if you teach yourself how to paint, you can almost eliminate the use of masking tape. I almost never mask, everything gets cut in by hand.

And quit inventing sh!t that makes it easier for Harry Homeowner to do my job! You don't see me taking food off your table! :laughing:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree that if standard trim methods doesn't hold all trim tight against the wall without caulk......a snap system centered in the trim isn't either....


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

simtrim said:


> Al,
> I'm coming more from the stand point of a home owner who does absolutely all maintenance and work around the home. From a developer standpoint you are right, shoot in brad nails and leave the new home as it sits in its new state to the home owner. It's much quicker and less work and a bit less money for them. I would challenge anyone, including the absolute best house painters in the world to do a better job painting any room if they painted a room with trim on versus me painting with trim off. To me it's a question of quality. In five years your new home has to be painted and then what do you do. In the high end homes in our area most people still prefer a wood grain finish in the molding so therefore you have to cut in or mask the molding and this is my primary focus. I can go into absolutely any home in the world with fixed nailed on molding and find tons of painting errors involving the molding. If you talk to any home owner that does their own painting ask them and they'll say that the thing they are most mad about with painting is the prep work. With the pre-painted molding it is also practically impossible to get a smooth paint job on your trim right next to the floor and again every home I've been in where they've painted the baseboards at the same time as the wall the paint job next to the floor looks terrible. With most of the new homes that have strictly mdf they are now caulking the narrow gap above the baseboards because the brad system doesn't pull in the tall baseboards tight enough to the wall. My system sucks that board right against the wall and therefore no caulking is required. In these installations, if you ever decide to change flooring etc. you basically have to toss the baseboards and quite often the walls get damaged as well (because of caulking removal) and then you have to repair the walls as well. I would say that over the life time of a house, which is many many years longer than just the developers 5 minutes of fame, a removable system would be far more economic. If your molding is removable you can paint designs or paint different colors on molding versus the wall color (you can take your molding into the garage and do a perfectly smooth paint or stain job on them before you pop them back on). What interior designer wouldn't see the huge benefit of adding designer colors by simply working separately with the molding versus the wall? With removable baseboards you can cut in extra grooves if you want or run electric wires behind the trim and/or run the wires behind the trim and under the wallboard. The list of advantages goes on and on. I knew right from the start that it won't be an easy sell to sell people on a system that they aren't familiar with and I have to get rid of the stigma that the old way is the only way. I definitely won't be quitting my day job anytime soon, but am hoping that there are some do it your-selfers out there that will see it the way I do.


I believe you have defined your market but there isn't a great deal of people that fall into that market.

They don't use MDF for molding trim in homes. It's LDF which is made out of a totally different material.

If you pull the base tight against a curvy wall it will look pretty bad. The base is semi gloss the wall is flat. It's seen less when the base is straight. The caulking is important in holding the molding in place. They only nail into the drywall.

I see million dollar homes with molding painted in place by spraying it. If they take the time to sweep the floor it comes out great. Sounds like you have a beef with something that has become common place in construction.

The designer wanting different colors snaps her fingers and someone paints it. Why would you want to uninstall and install it just to paint it?

Wires running behind the base is a code violation. 

Best of luck

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

They do sell MDF trim....it's quite crappy though.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> Problem statement: Create a system of attachment and removal for wood molding ranging in width from 1 1/2" to 3" which allows for slight variations in the wall plane and the height of the fastners, if any.
> 
> Several ideas come to mind.
> Ball stud and socket/hole.
> ...


Thanks for the comments. All of the items that you mention are items I had to go through and also tried myself when making my patent and I researched all of them in depth and the main problems with them all is that they are harder to accomplish than my system, would be much harder to install, much more expense to install and more importantly my system will suck the trim hard against the wall. The only one system that would come close to what my system can do would be the use of rare earth magnets and they would be very expensive to install in a whole house and also have the issue of having a completely magnetized living area. I've done informal market studies on all the trim I've seen available in hardware stores and about 75% of all existing, on the market trim could utilize the dovetail groove system. Also with respect to how difficult it is to put in a 3/4" dovetail in the back of trim anybody that can buy/operate a router and with using a router table anyone with even a small amount of skill could install their own groove in the back of molding if they tried. The key items my design had over any of the other removable molding hod down devices methods that I researched was the ability to make the same modification along the whole length of practically any molding (the continuous groove is much easier too do than making individual holes in the back), make the system actually hold the product tightly against the wall and make a system that would be economical. My very first prototypes years ago involved four pieces and I now have it down to two. I expect that when I get to the point where I can have proper manufacturing of the two main components happening, the costs to the consumer for the snap system will be very economical. I'm presently at the point where I'm selling 100 male and female snap components for $26 Cdn. This will likely be halved if I can mass produce the products. For example a typical bedroom with dimensions of 11' x 11', one man door, one double closet door one average size window and all baseboards throughout would use approximately 100 snaps. The main aspects I wanted to design around was to make a system that anyone could do at home with their existing molding or use with new molding. There would be significant upside if I could convince new molding manufacturers to install the dovetail, but I'm sure it would be a hard sell. When I entered this forum it was to get other's ideas on whether anyone knew of an easy and effective way to install a dovetail groove without a router (strictly because a router, although very accurate would not make the groove making practical in a large scale sense). I've had a lot of good suggestions so far and it is obvious that if the dovetail would be mass produced, a horizontal spindle moulder would be the correct way to go.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Here's the thing though....at 26 bucks a room, plus the additional cost of the trim.... Your looking 3-400 dollars added cost minimum. 

I retrimmed my entire house a few months ago utilizing about 6 bucks worth of nails.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Johnny5 said:


> The issue I still see is caulking paint grade molding. You state that the current installation method requires a caulked joint between surfaces purely because the "brads don't pull the molding tight to the wall". This is simply not the case. Without a caulked edge between the wall and molding, a paint grade molding will always show an unsightly shadow line. No wall is ever perfectly straight, nor is any ceiling flat. Painted molding, IMPO, will always need to be caulked to the surface it is mounted to. It just looks much cleaner.
> 
> Plus, if you teach yourself how to paint, you can almost eliminate the use of masking tape. I almost never mask, everything gets cut in by hand.
> 
> And quit inventing sh!t that makes it easier for Harry Homeowner to do my job! You don't see me taking food off your table! :laughing:


Good points. I don't think it would take take away from any hired painting jobs or carpentry jobs because I'm assuming most people still wouldn't do their own painting even if the molding was removable.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Here's the thing though....at 26 bucks a room, plus the additional cost of the trim.... Your looking 3-400 dollars added cost minimum.
> 
> I retrimmed my entire house a few months ago utilizing about 6 bucks worth of nails.


Ryan, If a person is re-trimming a house I would assume that they didn't like their previous trim. Most people throw out all of their baseboards when they renovate or change flooring, where's the economics in that?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*horizontal spindle molders*

As far as I know molding knives can't make an "undercut", that's only possible with a cutter that enters from one end and is not withdrawn until the other end is reached. It can't rotate in the plane that is 90 degrees to the face. It must rotate parallel to the back face. It is sessentially "trapped" in it's own groove. And you still have the attachment nut issue ... unless I'm missing somethin' :blink:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

simtrim said:


> Ryan, If a person is re-trimming a house I would assume that they didn't like their previous trim. Most people throw out all of their baseboards when they renovate or change flooring, where's the economics in that?


No....I think most people change it because like I did....it was outdated. 

I had ugly as sin 2 inch casing and 3 inch base....and instead went to 3.25 painted case and 4.5 inch painted base.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> I believe you have defined your market but there isn't a great deal of people that fall into that market.
> 
> They don't use MDF for molding trim in homes. It's LDF which is made out of a totally different material.
> 
> ...


Also good points. With my system you don't have to screw in the base tight to the walls if you don't want it that way because it is totally adjustable in or out. All of the many people I talked to at the last trade show indicated that they felt it would be a huge advantage to run speaker wires behind the baseboard (I believe that speaker wires behind baseboards is not a code violation). It's not that I have a beef with construction in general, but I'm the kind of person that if a rake is laying on the ground and in the way I pick it up and move it instead of walking around it all the time. That's why i think thatjust because people have been doing things one way for years doesn't mean it's the only way. If I found out my trim installer purposely only shot brads into drywall I would be pretty mad.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So if you adjust to keep it straight....and then caulk.....you've lost any benefit. No?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I've read this whole thread. While the concept seems unique, IMO the market isn't there to make it worthwhile. A good installer can work around quirks, and not having to line up fasteners. I haven't found that 'saving trim' had great benefits. 

It's the big picture that will make the endeavor a moneymaker or not. I think you'll still have the problem of who will do the machining, and on what. Usually a market is based on what's available, and to stock trim can be expensive. All the comments from members have merit, as many of us do the work and handle the product. 

I foresee problems of settling issues for example affecting the installation. It just seems that a trim installer has his gig down pretty good, and this system would not lend an advantage to make it worthwhile. 








 








.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> As far as I know molding knives can't make an "undercut", that's only possible with a cutter that enters from one end and is not withdrawn until the other end is reached. It can't rotate in the plane that is 90 degrees to the face. It must rotate parallel to the back face. It is sessentially "trapped" in it's own groove. And you still have the attachment nut issue ... unless I'm missing somethin' :blink:


This point was ignored by the OP a few posts back. Not to mention the nut assembly on the top of the cutter.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

simtrim said:


> Also good points. With my system you don't have to screw in the base tight to the walls if you don't want it that way because it is totally adjustable in or out. All of the many people I talked to at the last trade show indicated that they felt it would be a huge advantage to run speaker wires behind the baseboard (I believe that speaker wires behind baseboards is not a code violation). It's not that I have a beef with construction in general, but I'm the kind of person that if a rake is laying on the ground and in the way I pick it up and move it instead of walking around it all the time. That's why i think thatjust because people have been doing things one way for years doesn't mean it's the only way. If I found out my trim installer purposely only shot brads into drywall I would be pretty mad.


You keep glossing over many of our points. In doing that your keeping yourself in the game but it will find you in the end.

Trim installed in homes with steel studs require the nails to be driven into the drywall. This in the way it's done. On crown they angle the nail (wire) to make crosses for more hold. 

Just where we're you going to drive your snap screws? If you rely on the framer your going to be out of luck when you have all your snaps installed and you press the molding in place only to find you need one in between to pull it in. Or it's not tight enough or too tight. Unsnap? Rescrew? Are you prying against the wall to remove it? Touch up? It seems like a pain in the base. 


Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It's the worlds most complicated trim installation....reminds me of this wine opener...


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> You keep glossing over many of our points. In doing that your keeping yourself in the game but it will find you in the end.
> 
> Trim installed in homes with steel studs require the nails to be driven into the drywall. This in the way it's done. On crown they angle the nail (wire) to make crosses for more hold.
> 
> ...


From the sound of the questions I'm getting from all of the seasoned carpenters out there in this forum, they sound skeptical that my system works, so it really doesn't make sense for me to keep arguing the same obvious points. 1.) the system is just as simple as snapping on on or off the snaps on your coat, boat tarp or what ever things you've seen snaps on. 2.) I've standardized my system to match with 3/8" female snap inserts/grommets. 3.) Since the system only involves two components, the male screw that screws into the wall and the female plastic grommet that you turn into the dovetail groove to hold it secure, there couldn't be anything simpler. It would be no different than me claiming that a boat tarp maker should just use nails or tacks to install the tarp on their boat instead of simply attaching the female snap component on the tarp and the male screw stud in the boat at the same location/s. I've never heard anyone ever complain about someone not understanding how to attach the snaps on a coat etc., so am sure that a semi skilled carpenter could easily understand how the system works. The reason you have to nail brads at an angle through wallboard in a steel stud framed home is because the nails will pull out otherwise if they are driven straight in and this is another reason why I like my system better than the brad nail system. How do you guys pull off these moldings when the nails are all angled at different angles in the studs. If you angle them all in the same direction it seems to me that they will likely pull out and if you alternate angles with the brads you will definitely damage the molding and/or wallboard if you remove it? I've removed numerous mdf or ldf moldings that had been attached with brad nails and found that it is impossible to pull the brads out of the trim without totally damaging the trim and you can't leave them in and just pound them back into the same holes in the wallboard or the trim just basically works its way off of the wall. My solution to this is to cut off the free end of the brad and then when you reinstall you drive in whole new brads and then have to touch up all the new brad marks as well as the old. From your question on how I install the female snap receptacle it is clear that you don't understand the way it is installed. Each separate female insert is simply dropped into the groove and then rotated clockwise to tighten it in the groove with a friction fit. I can install any amount of these inserts at any time during the install because the trim is easily snapped on and off. If I happen to snap it on and I don't like how it holds to the wall I'll pop it off and install another female insert at the point I think it needs to be and screw in another male screw to match it and then pop it back on. Popping on the trim has to be done at each individual point that you have a snap and you just have to push the trim hard enough with the palm of your hand to engage the snap. In all cases when the snap properly engages it makes a snapping noise as the trim is sucked against the wall. To pull it iff you just take anything flat like a knife or thin screw driver to pull the trim away from the wall far enough that you can grab it with your finger nails. From that point on it pops off very easily. Not much different than pulling off a boat tarp except a lot easier once you start it because the trim is working like a lever in your favour. I was assuming that most of the people in this forum had seen my web page and had a bit of an idea of how the snap system works. When showing people at trade shows how the system works it only takes a few seconds to illustrate how easy it is accomplished. My feeling is that even if a person bought molding that had a dovetail groove in the back you could install it with my system or just brad nail it on the wall if a person wanted to. If there were dovetail groove/s in the back face of the more than 75% of commercially available molding (that is capable of accepting one or more 3/'4" dovetails) it would not adversely affect the physical strength characteristics required of the trim to do it's intended purpose. I'm hoping to be able to give people the option to use the system or not. The jury is still out on how best to mass produce the groove for my purposes but a router/table with appropriate fence and routr bit is obviously the easiest to use and understand for smaller runs of the system.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

simtrim said:


> *From the sound of the questions I'm getting from all of the seasoned carpenters out there in this forum, they sound skeptical that my system works, so it really doesn't make sense for me to keep arguing the same obvious points.* 1.) the system is just as simple as snapping on on or off the snaps on your coat, boat tarp or what ever things you've seen snaps on. 2.) I've standardized my system to match with 3/8" female snap inserts/grommets. 3.) Since the system only involves two components, the male screw that screws into the wall and the female plastic grommet that you turn into the dovetail groove to hold it secure, there couldn't be anything simpler. It would be no different than me claiming that a boat tarp maker should just use nails or tacks to install the tarp on their boat instead of simply attaching the female snap component on the tarp and the male screw stud in the boat at the same location/s. I've never heard anyone ever complain about someone not understanding how to attach the snaps on a coat etc., so am sure that a semi skilled carpenter could easily understand how the system works. The reason you have to nail brads at an angle through wallboard in a steel stud framed home is because the nails will pull out otherwise if they are driven straight in and this is another reason why I like my system better than the brad nail system. How do you guys pull off these moldings when the nails are all angled at different angles in the studs. If you angle them all in the same direction it seems to me that they will likely pull out and if you alternate angles with the brads you will definitely damage the molding and/or wallboard if you remove it? I've removed numerous mdf or ldf moldings that had been attached with brad nails and found that it is impossible to pull the brads out of the trim without totally damaging the trim and you can't leave them in and just pound them back into the same holes in the wallboard or the trim just basically works its way off of the wall. My solution to this is to cut off the free end of the brad and then when you reinstall you drive in whole new brads and then have to touch up all the new brad marks as well as the old. From your question on how I install the female snap receptacle it is clear that you don't understand the way it is installed. Each separate female insert is simply dropped into the groove and then rotated clockwise to tighten it in the groove with a friction fit. I can install any amount of these inserts at any time during the install because the trim is easily snapped on and off. If I happen to snap it on and I don't like how it holds to the wall I'll pop it off and install another female insert at the point I think it needs to be and screw in another male screw to match it and then pop it back on. Popping on the trim has to be done at each individual point that you have a snap and you just have to push the trim hard enough with the palm of your hand to engage the snap. In all cases when the snap properly engages it makes a snapping noise as the trim is sucked against the wall. To pull it iff you just take anything flat like a knife or thin screw driver to pull the trim away from the wall far enough that you can grab it with your finger nails. From that point on it pops off very easily. Not much different than pulling off a boat tarp except a lot easier once you start it because the trim is working like a lever in your favour. I was assuming that most of the people in this forum had seen my web page and had a bit of an idea of how the snap system works. When showing people at trade shows how the system works it only takes a few seconds to illustrate how easy it is accomplished. My feeling is that even if a person bought molding that had a dovetail groove in the back you could install it with my system or just brad nail it on the wall if a person wanted to. If there were dovetail groove/s in the back face of the more than 75% of commercially available molding (that is capable of accepting one or more 3/'4" dovetails) it would not adversely affect the physical strength characteristics required of the trim to do it's intended purpose. I'm hoping to be able to give people the option to use the system or not. The jury is still out on how best to mass produce the groove for my purposes but a router/table with appropriate fence and routr bit is obviously the easiest to use and understand for smaller runs of the system.


It sounds like you are still trying to convince us that your system is better. Maybe if you go back and read the comments you'll see the responses from those that do the work. As for a moneymaker, you'll have to figure out that end of it. I appreciate the thought you put into this system. I see working out the problems of what and who will machine the dovetail, what mouldings will be done, made available or not, and stocking issues.










 








.


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

I have followed this thread but haven't commented yet. I have just finished trimming out my own 1300 sq ft house. I am not in the carpentry business and I do not profess to be any sort of expert, but it seems to me this system is a fix for something that isn't really broken. Maybe if I were doing this as an occupation I would see it differently. There are always 'better' ways of doing things I suppose, but I just don't see the real need for this....at least if it adds and significant cost to a project.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dave
You make it sound like people want to change the trim on their homes like they change into a pair of jeans. They just paint it. It seems silly to think your going to use that as a selling feature. 

I'm well aware of why they angle the nails to gain strength. And there it remains until hell freezes over.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

I can't image this system being faster that nailing with a trim gun. 

I can't imagine this system's fasteners/snaps being cheaper than trim nails

Only novice DIYers remove and replace base board or other trim for minor renovations like new flooring or painting. (Would expect this to be a small subset of the trim market)

Can't picture how this would work on crown molding with half an inch on each side making contact with the wall

Talk of mdf moulding means that a finisher will caulk the molding to the wall so it won't be simple to just snap off. 

Can't see this product being very friendly in the real world where walls bow and floors dip and ceilings pull away from compound miters. 

I am curious if you have to pop a line and install one part of the snaps to the wall. If so I would expect that would take longer than installing the trim traditionally. 

I did look at your website found it to be poorly designed (in my opinion) as well. If you are trying to reach a consumer market I think it will need to be revamped. If you have a patent why would you not have a rendering of the product on there? Maybe it's there but I couldn't find it. 


Bottom line, I think if you were on shark tank you would not get an offer. 

It's obvious that you believe in your product. I think you have gotten some good advice here. I caution you in your zeal to not overlook the wisdom of the people who work in the industry you wish to supply.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Ttharp said:


> I can't image this system being faster that nailing with a trim gun.
> 
> I can't imagine this system's fasteners/snaps being cheaper than trim nails
> 
> ...


You've made a number of points and and will comment on most. No where is it indicated anywhere that this system would be faster than brad nailing on molding. I'm saying my preference is to go with quality over speed. I've never indicated that it was cheaper to put on initially, but do believe that if a home owner had the home for a number of years it would likely be cheaper in the long run considering cost savings with painting prep work, not having to replace damaged trim when changing flooring, etc. (and not to mention quality of aesthetic value of the trim even after many years of being in place). If there are those out there that don't remove at least some of the baseboards when changing out flooring I can only comment that those particular jobs could not possibly meet the quality ?I would expect from a flooring/trim perspective. With crown molding you need to rip a 2 x 4 the same angle as the flat backed crown then attach ripped board by attaching it to enough wall studs to make it solid. You then snap the crown onto this board and it results in a tight fit against the ceiling and wall. It took me like ten minutes to make a mock up for this type of installation for my last trade show. I've never been a proponent of using caulking on any type of molding because if the trim is close enough to the wall as it becomes with my system, you don't need caulking. Up until a few years ago I never saw anybody use caulking in anybodies house, is everyone out their doing this just because everyone else is telling them to? All of my last four houses have had real wood grain trim throughout and all of my trim fits tight against the walls and definitely does not need caulking for any reason. I had people at the last trade show tell me that they went to change flooring in their six year old house and the high baseboard that was on the hose just fell right off when they pulled at it because it was only caulked to the wall. no brad nails at all. They were not impressed. In most cases my snap system will definitely hold any trim as tight to the wall as any brad nail system. Popping a line with my system is not the recommended way to go. My system conforms with and fits crooked molding to fit on crooked walls and vise versa. You mark where you want each snap when you hold the trim in place and then attach snaps at those locations. By doing this your male snap center is always in the right location and it also matches up with the female snap in the molding. I definitely won't admit to having a very good web page as I did it all in one week end a couple years ago and haven't bothered to go back and even edit it. With respect to the patent I've never seen anyone ever publish their own patent on any type of advertisement. I have both Canadian and U.S. patents on the system and anyone can access any published patent by just going on the web. For a search for my patent just type my name, David Simonar and anything to do with architectural molding and it should pop up for you. I did attempt to get on the Canadian equivalent to the U.S. Shark Tank and I didn't even get past the audition part because I had virtually no sales and the show's producer said they will only talk to people that have some type of sales. I've never once indicated that I didn't agree in part to everyone's comments in their threads. Everyone has their opinion/s and I accept that. All I've tried to do is clarify what my system can do and indicate why I believe that. I'm not a computer wiz and do not have the cash to throw at others to develop a proper site or spend a lot of cash on the development of a system that is kind of a hobby to me. In terms of cost to install I could easily get the components to become quite inexpensive in the future so some of the cost issues that came up in these threads are likely unrealistic in today's environment. I can supply the two components today that will make the system work, but if there was a definite market out there for it I expect that I could get the male snap screws made for 1 cent or less per unit (my cost) and because my plastic mold for the female snaps is currently only a four cavity mold my production costs are in the 11 cent range right now per unit. If I ever thought this system would fly I would need to invest in a 32 or 64 cavity mold and then it would likely come in around 2 to 3 cents (my cost) per female snap. I don't really know the expected wholesale to retail markup but assuming you could have each individual snap (male and female) sold to a retail store at somewhere around 6 cents per snap they would likely mark them up to 10 or 12 cents per complete snap. 100 snaps would then be $10 to $12. A whole house could be in the range of $150 to $200 for the snaps depending on how much usable trim is in the house.


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## Johnny5 (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm not sold at all. I still can't see how this could possibly work, be cost effective, and install efficient. It's just not adding up for me. I guess I would have to see the final product, in person, installed in a REAL home (not some perfectly straight sample board).

And caulk is not some hack cover up. I nail my trim to every stud with 2 nails, one top and one bottom, and to the bottom plate in between studs if need be to close a gap. Caulk is used very sparingly along the top edge to blend the trim with the wall and make it look like one surface so unsightly shadow lines (which WILL be there regardless of how tight the trim is to the wall) aren't readily visible.

I can trim a whole house with $15 worth of nails. An entire house can be based and cased with a 2 man crew in less than a day.

And what's the differnce between your friends who had their base caulked to the wall and your "snap" system? Both perfectly removable without damage to the trim, and I think caulk might be cheaper! 

I'd be pissed if I bought an expensive house and found out none of the trim had been nailed or caulked and was just "snapped" onto the wall. 

Sorry man, I enjoy cool inventions as much as the next guy, but I just don't see any advantage to this, and the problems you claim this system solves don't seem to be problems that anyone actually has.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I think what we're all trying to say.....is there are millions of patented ideas out there....that doesn't mean they're all practical in use. This particular one probably works very well in a perfectly drywalled house......probably works great in a trade show booth.......but in a practical home environment....I just don't see it.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

And one last thing I'm going to say and then leave it alone......Even if it's the best idea on earth.....your up against insurmountable odds. You need to make it a universal system to get moulding companies to adopt the extra costs and quality issues that will result from cutting a dovetail into the back of the trim (yes...cutting a full dovetail out of the back of trim will weaken the moulding. But without moulding in the mass markets that works, you have virtually no chance of selling the snaps. Its a chicken or egg problem.....you making the moulding yourself will guarantee that your prices aren't competitive...and your going to have a really really hard time convincing people that they have a problem they never knew they had


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

simtrim said:


> You've made a number of points and and will comment on most. No where is it indicated anywhere that this system would be faster than brad nailing on molding. I'm saying my preference is to go with quality over speed. I've never indicated that it was cheaper to put on initially, but do believe that if a home owner had the home for a number of years it would likely be cheaper in the long run considering cost savings with painting prep work, not having to replace damaged trim when changing flooring, etc. (and not to mention quality of aesthetic value of the trim even after many years of being in place). If there are those out there that don't remove at least some of the baseboards when changing out flooring I can only comment that those particular jobs could not possibly meet the quality ?I would expect from a flooring/trim perspective. With crown molding you need to rip a 2 x 4 the same angle as the flat backed crown then attach ripped board by attaching it to enough wall studs to make it solid. You then snap the crown onto this board and it results in a tight fit against the ceiling and wall. It took me like ten minutes to make a mock up for this type of installation for my last trade show. I've never been a proponent of using caulking on any type of molding because if the trim is close enough to the wall as it becomes with my system, you don't need caulking. Up until a few years ago I never saw anybody use caulking in anybodies house, is everyone out their doing this just because everyone else is telling them to? All of my last four houses have had real wood grain trim throughout and all of my trim fits tight against the walls and definitely does not need caulking for any reason. I had people at the last trade show tell me that they went to change flooring in their six year old house and the high baseboard that was on the hose just fell right off when they pulled at it because it was only caulked to the wall. no brad nails at all. They were not impressed. In most cases my snap system will definitely hold any trim as tight to the wall as any brad nail system. Popping a line with my system is not the recommended way to go. My system conforms with and fits crooked molding to fit on crooked walls and vise versa. You mark where you want each snap when you hold the trim in place and then attach snaps at those locations. By doing this your male snap center is always in the right location and it also matches up with the female snap in the molding. I definitely won't admit to having a very good web page as I did it all in one week end a couple years ago and haven't bothered to go back and even edit it. With respect to the patent I've never seen anyone ever publish their own patent on any type of advertisement. I have both Canadian and U.S. patents on the system and anyone can access any published patent by just going on the web. For a search for my patent just type my name, David Simonar and anything to do with architectural molding and it should pop up for you. I did attempt to get on the Canadian equivalent to the U.S. Shark Tank and I didn't even get past the audition part because I had virtually no sales and the show's producer said they will only talk to people that have some type of sales. I've never once indicated that I didn't agree in part to everyone's comments in their threads. Everyone has their opinion/s and I accept that. All I've tried to do is clarify what my system can do and indicate why I believe that. I'm not a computer wiz and do not have the cash to throw at others to develop a proper site or spend a lot of cash on the development of a system that is kind of a hobby to me. In terms of cost to install I could easily get the components to become quite inexpensive in the future so some of the cost issues that came up in these threads are likely unrealistic in today's environment. I can supply the two components today that will make the system work, but if there was a definite market out there for it I expect that I could get the male snap screws made for 1 cent or less per unit (my cost) and because my plastic mold for the female snaps is currently only a four cavity mold my production costs are in the 11 cent range right now per unit. If I ever thought this system would fly I would need to invest in a 32 or 64 cavity mold and then it would likely come in around 2 to 3 cents (my cost) per female snap. I don't really know the expected wholesale to retail markup but assuming you could have each individual snap (male and female) sold to a retail store at somewhere around 6 cents per snap they would likely mark them up to 10 or 12 cents per complete snap. 100 snaps would then be $10 to $12. A whole house could be in the range of $150 to $200 for the snaps depending on how much usable trim is in the house.


I honestly suggest that you find a group of trim carpenters that would allow you to intern with them for a couple of months. I think it would be a real eye opener and help you create a better product if you still wish to continue developing it. If you think that caulk has only been used in the last decade it is obvious to me that you are not very familiar with how painted trim is done. In the real world walls and floors are not flat, plum, square, and straight. All of these issues have nothing to do with the trim carpenter. 


Best of luck. 
Trav


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

Why have there been no pics of this? Have there been prototypes made?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*all this advice and....*

We still don't know how or if you can create the the dovetail in "millions of feet" of molding. All the rest of the discussion is moot without a means of production..... just sayin'. :blink:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> We still don't know how or if you can create the the dovetail in "millions of feet" of molding. All the rest of the discussion is moot without a means of production..... just sayin'. :blink:


If it were cut with a router bit. How many feet do you think He could run on one bit? I don't think you could finish cutting molding for one home. 


Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

Johnny5 said:


> I'm not sold at all. I still can't see how this could possibly work, be cost effective, and install efficient. It's just not adding up for me. I guess I would have to see the final product, in person, installed in a REAL home (not some perfectly straight sample board).
> 
> And caulk is not some hack cover up. I nail my trim to every stud with 2 nails, one top and one bottom, and to the bottom plate in between studs if need be to close a gap. Caulk is used very sparingly along the top edge to blend the trim with the wall and make it look like one surface so unsightly shadow lines (which WILL be there regardless of how tight the trim is to the wall) aren't readily visible.
> 
> ...


When I developed the system I used it on all casings and baseboards in my last two houses and I can verify that none of my walls were straight and neither was the trim straight and all of my "snapped" on trim looked identical to the former brad nailed trim except with my trim I didn't have to look at the marks left by the previous filled in nail holes on the front face of the trim. I've cut in a dovetail in the back of all of my trim in both of my last two houses using the first and only 3/4" bit I bought 20 years ago and I still use the same bit (I've probably used it on more than 3000 feet of trim to date and most of it oak). Someone else on another thread mentioned that it sounds like I'm making assuming that a person regularly takes their trim off and on. If a person owns a home for 40 plus years you could probably guess that the walls will be painted at least four or five times over that period. If you could remove even most of the trim you will significantly improve the quality of the end product and that is on both the trim and the wall. All I'm saying is that for those people that don't like masking and for those who don't have as steady of a hand and are scared of getting paint on their trim my system eliminates that worry. The way I look at it, it is no different than taking of your outlet covers and light switch covers etc.. I'm pretty sure that everyone takes them off before they paint. As far as caulking goes I would assume that if you are nailing at every stud that your trim should be right tight against the wall. What gap could possibly be unsightly on your walls. I only have wood grain trim in my house so a good clean contact line is all you get. I'm not saying you can't use caulking when also using the snap on trim, if that's the way you like it then do it. You can even use some brad nails here and there with my system if there is some rare circumstance and the snap idea can't be used. You've commented or compared a snap on system to caulked on only systems and you can do what you want in your own homes, but my snaps will hold trim to the wall tighter to the wall than any caulking system. All I'm saying is that in the majority of commercially available trim the dovetail groove in the back would still leave the trim structurally sound and give people the option to use any system they want (brads, glue or snaps). All I do every day in my real time engineering job is to design things to work safely and cost effectively. The killer of most of our projects today is maintenance and labour costs associated with everything we design and we look at life time costs, not only at costs to install. Anytime I can reduce the amount of labour that has to happen on a job, I get the biggest cost savings. For an example, if we put lock-tight compound on all bolted connections on all the equipment we install we'd all be fired. Sure the nuts or bolts would never come loose but when you ever needed to repair anything you may as well break out the cutting torch and in my mind the same type of mentality exists with nailing on trim. When is the last time you took your vehicle into a garage to put on a $5.00 part and it ended up costing you $100's of dollars in labour costs? I've proven this many times over in my own homes. If I snap off the trim (which only takes about five minutes for a room) I can be done painting that room in less than half the time as compared to masking and prepping. After all paint has dried it can then take up to about fifteen to twenty minutes to snap the trim back on and then I'm guaranteed a mess free job on the wall and on the trim.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't think manufacturing this would be a problem.
You could do it in a series of 3 cuts, straight flute in the middle, dovetail left, right as to not clog and overheat.
Marketing it is another matter.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Sorrowful Jones said:


> Why have there been no pics of this? Have there been prototypes made?


I am wondering this myself. Had it in his last 2 houses. No pictures on the website. No pictures in this thread. 

What do we say to that boys????


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

simtrim said:


> thousands or possibly millions of feet of molding/casing/baseboards/crown molding/wainscotting/trim


If you wind up doing "millions" of feet, then the proper industrial moulder would be in order.
In the meantime, for "proof of concept", for around $2-3,000 and some time you could mount 3 routers in a home-made quality doubled up 3/4" plywood table & fence with dust collection system and 2 stock-feeders, one at each end of a 3 router run for consistency.
An up-cut fluted straight bit will work as well as a dado in a 3/16" slot and you won't have to go to the trouble of "hooking up a separate router table.
Then 2 dovetail bits, right and left, make the router base alignment accurately adjustable with screws and stops built in.
Then you at least have your product without getting in too far over your head and see if the market is there?


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## 4DThinker (Mar 13, 2013)

Just as a mental exercise, how about one pass down 3 table saws with an auto-feed attached? One with a dado set to hog out the middle. Next with the blade left tilted at dovetail angle for one side. Last pass use a right-tilt saw for the other side of the dovetail. Custom-ground blades could make a nice clean finished half-dove cut. Daisy-chain the saws in line to run trim continuously through. One person to feed it. One person to catch and stack.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

But again.....utilizing saws where adjusting the cabinets to keep them inline is not the way a production operation should run....Very difficult to keep all 3 saws in line perfectly...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*best method yet....JMO*



4DThinker said:


> Just as a mental exercise, how about one pass down 3 table saws with an auto-feed attached? One with a dado set to hog out the middle. Next with the blade left tilted at dovetail angle for one side. Last pass use a right-tilt saw for the other side of the dovetail. Custom-ground blades could make a nice clean finished half-dove cut. *Daisy-chain the saws in line *to run trim continuously through. One person to feed it. One person to catch and stack.





ryan50hrl said:


> But again.....utilizing saws where adjusting the cabinets to keep them inline is not the way a production operation should run....Very difficult to *keep* all 3 saws in line perfectly...


It may be "trcky' to *get* the blades alighned in the vertical position of course, but once that is done it's a no brainer. This is not "Swiss jewerlry" just a freakin' dovetail for a widgit. It need not be all that precise. I have 3 saws connected across, a different animal than back end to front, but obviously not impossible. And they need not be $3,00.00 cabinet saws just good quality and continuous duty, even though the kerf is only 3/16" deep requiring very little power.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

4DThinker said:


> Just as a mental exercise, how about one pass down 3 table saws with an auto-feed attached? One with a dado set to hog out the middle. Next with the blade left tilted at dovetail angle for one side. Last pass use a right-tilt saw for the other side of the dovetail. Custom-ground blades could make a nice clean finished half-dove cut. Daisy-chain the saws in line to run trim continuously through. One person to feed it. One person to catch and stack.


Just my opinion but 3 table saws in line is like 9 feet of table, while 3 cheaper but quality routers could fit easily in an 1&1/2" thick plywood table with laminate,less than half of that space.
Gang saws are a much simpler proposition.
Since stock-feeders are also generally short, you would need one for each saw, because accuracy really would count for attachment to work properly.
Tilting dado blades 14 degrees also cuts a 14 degree angle deeper into the top of the cut, leaving a peak on each side or one in the middle.
Does this work with the attachment system which has yet to be described in any detail?
With either system you'd want to runs reasonably slow, I think one person could feed and catch also.
This is just to see if there is a market for this, if it catches on, then you could justify spending thousands on an industrial set-up?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no argument from me, however...*

The router bits would overheat after a few thousand feet, maybe sooner, losing their edge. whereas the table saw blades will run much cooler and last much longer because many more teeth are involved in the cut than on a small 2 sided router bit. It's definitely cheaper to set up 3 routers on a large surface of particle board and will definitely take up less floor space than 3 table saws. It's possible a combination of routing and sawing would work most efficiently...I donno, and I'm not gonna try it either to find out. :no:


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The router bits would overheat after a few thousand feet, maybe sooner, losing their edge. whereas the table saw blades will run much cooler and last much longer because many more teeth are involved in the cut than on a small 2 sided router bit. It's definitely cheaper to set up 3 routers on a large surface of particle board and will definitely take up less floor space than 3 table saws. It's possible a combination of routing and sawing would work most efficiently...I donno, and I'm not gonna try it either to find out. :no:


You may be right, I'm thinking they have a chance since they are just removing one side each of the dovetail part of the much larger slot.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

The system needs to register on one side. The bottom. Therefore one could easily set up many different profiles. 

The router wouldnt make it through the first day. It would over heat in about 1 to 2 hours. Dull in 200 feet. 

I've ran molding and no one does it with a router. 

You can lease a molding machine and profile grinder. 

BUT.

Logistics alone would put the price through the roof and you couldn't beg someone to buy it. 

There are more than a hundred different profiles being sold now. 

If the OP had designed a nail gun that rolled along the floor and allowed the installer stand while he worked, he'd have something.

Maybe a paint machine that would paint trim without cutting in or masking.

Nail gun that filled the hole too. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

4DThinker said:


> Just as a mental exercise, how about one pass down 3 table saws with an auto-feed attached? One with a dado set to hog out the middle. Next with the blade left tilted at dovetail angle for one side. Last pass use a right-tilt saw for the other side of the dovetail. Custom-ground blades could make a nice clean finished half-dove cut. Daisy-chain the saws in line to run trim continuously through. One person to feed it. One person to catch and stack.


I am beginning to think that this is probably the best way to go as well. I would have to make sure everything is lined up with one fence etc.. I'm trying to start low budget as there is no way of even knowing if the patent idea will really fly or not in the market place. Will need to get some reasonably sturdy saws. I suppose I could just use separate fences on each table and have them very close together (and in close alignment) and with a separate feed on each it should feed right through, what do you think?


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> But again.....utilizing saws where adjusting the cabinets to keep them inline is not the way a production operation should run....Very difficult to keep all 3 saws in line perfectly...


I agree in a large scale operation this would only be the poor boy, upfront attempt at making a continuous dovetail. Obviously a full fledged moulder would be the way to go.


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## simtrim (Mar 28, 2014)

bzguy said:


> Just my opinion but 3 table saws in line is like 9 feet of table, while 3 cheaper but quality routers could fit easily in an 1&1/2" thick plywood table with laminate,less than half of that space.
> Gang saws are a much simpler proposition.
> Since stock-feeders are also generally short, you would need one for each saw, because accuracy really would count for attachment to work properly.
> Tilting dado blades 14 degrees also cuts a 14 degree angle deeper into the top of the cut, leaving a peak on each side or one in the middle.
> ...


I would like to keep the bottom of the dovetail flat if possible because it then starts to limit what models and types of trim you can use the idea on. If the dovetail is flat on the bottom there is less meat taken out of the back of molding and therefore the trim will be stronger with the shallowest profile possible. Instead of three table saws in line, would it make sense to just try to line up two saws and have blades manufactured for them that have about a 3/8" thickness but then have them ground to 14 degrees and with opposite tilting blades it should be able to accomplish a true dovetail?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

simtrim said:


> I would like to keep the bottom of the dovetail flat if possible because it then starts to limit what models and types of trim you can use the idea on. If the dovetail is flat on the bottom there is less meat taken out of the back of molding and therefore the trim will be stronger with the shallowest profile possible. Instead of three table saws in line, would it make sense to just try to line up two saws and have blades manufactured for them that have about a 3/8" thickness but then have them ground to 14 degrees and with opposite tilting blades it should be able to accomplish a true dovetail?


Your original question was how to make the DT. You could set up a router with a DT bit, table and a power feed, and machine it with a single pass.:yes:








 








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