# blotchy results with wood dye



## jeffthecarpenterdude (Apr 3, 2009)

I just recently had nightmare results using a wood dye on hard maple.
It's a nice mantel piece ( or was ) until I stained it using a wood dye.
I've never had results like this and now I'm in a panic to find a way to
correct this. The end result is horribly blotchy, like pine stains when
you don't condition it first. Is there a remedy besides sanding that I
can use to even out the blotches?


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## Julian the woodnut (Nov 5, 2008)

What grit did you sand up to before using the dye? Did you raise the grain first?


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## Lefthanded (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffthecarpenterdude said:


> I just recently had nightmare results using a wood dye on hard maple.
> It's a nice mantel piece ( or was ) until I stained it using a wood dye.
> I've never had results like this and now I'm in a panic to find a way to
> correct this. The end result is horribly blotchy, like pine stains when
> ...


I hate maple!!! I've taken water with a little denatured acohol and blended it in but the blotch never seems to go away conpletely. I always use conditioner when finishing maple or birch. Even cherry! Try rockler.com or woodworkersupply.com for the conditioner. Hope others respond with more advice.:yes:

good luck, Bob:boat:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Jeff,
Ditto on what Julian said. More info on what you did and used is needed. There was a good article in Woodcraft magazine a couple of months back about using water based dyes. They also talked about using toners to even things out and also tinting the finish to even things out. Whatever you do from here on out, I would try on a scrap piece of the same wood first. Take a couple of scraps and stain them the same way to try and get some blotches. That will be your test bed then. In the meantime, please post back with some more info. 
Mike Hawkins


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## KE6WNH (Nov 16, 2008)

What a shame. I recently mixed some Tints-All into Danish oil and tried it on a piece of red oak. It took 3 whole days to dry, but I was surprised at how uniformly it stained the surface, not just the pores. My suggestion: try switching from water to oil base varnish, unless you absolutely cannot live with gold-toned woodwork.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Is the color where you want it to be? Can it go a little darker? It looks like you wiped the dye on with a rag, correct? Is this a water based dye stain or alcohol based? If the color can go darker the first thing I would do is to spray on a light coat of the stain.DO NOT LET IT GET WET ENOUGH TO PUDDLE! This is just like shading only with dye stain. The reason maple gets blotchy like that is the stain is applied too wet. If you spray it on evenly and til it is just damp there will be no blotchiness. You can also apply it more than one time so start light and build up your color. Now I will need to know what finish and how you are going to apply it to come up with the next step. You will have to either glaze over the sealer or do some toning or both. It will depend on what methods are available to you. I hope this helps let me know more info and maybe I can help more...


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## Bob Wingard (Jul 23, 2007)

One option, although not a fun one is to bleach the dye out with a 2-part wood bleach .. sand, seal, restain, finish. It's not a real big piece, so the bleach shouldn't be too bad.

We once lived in an early 1900's house that had oak trim that was nearly black with stain .. stripped the whole house, room by room, then bleached it almost pure white .. then refinished with a light oak stain & alkyd varnish .. that was LONG before poly was even on the market. It was a lot of work, but it turned out great.

Search for 2-part wood bleach .. don't settle for trying regular chlorine bleach, although it will work to some degree. All you need to do is get rid of the color so you can start over .. bleaching will accomplish that for you.


I went back and checked Flexner's book and he says Page 80) that chlorine bleach WILL take out dye stain. He says Oxalic acid is for black water stains, and the 2 part is usually used for removing the natural color of wood to lighten it. I'd say give it a bath of chlorine & water.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

If it is a water based dye like Lockwood straight chlorine bleach will get almost all of it out as long as you haven't applied any sealer. The chlorine bleach will leave a little yellowish tint, the 2 part wood bleach I would only use as a last resort.


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## Bob Wingard (Jul 23, 2007)

Here's a pretty good article regarding the bleaching of wood for different reasons & effects by Jeff Jewett .. .. .. 


http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/using_wood_bleach.htm


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## KE6WNH (Nov 16, 2008)

Bob Wingard said:


> I went back and checked Flexner's book and he says Page 80) that chlorine bleach WILL take out dye stain. He says Oxalic acid is for black water stains, and the 2 part is usually used for removing the natural color of wood to lighten it. I'd say give it a bath of chlorine & water.


Chlorine bleach will decompose into table salt, but do you really want that in the surface of the wood? Hydrogen peroxide is the oxidizing agent used in 2-part bleach, and the activator usually contains a trace of something alkaline like hydrated lime to liberate the oxygen. I've used 3% peroxide to bleach wood, but it takes a long time... however the advantage is you can get peroxide cheap at most 99 cent stores. If you want to make it into a peroxide gel, then you will need Cab-O-Sil or some other inert medium which contains no alkaline impurities.

Oxalic acid works exactly the opposite of peroxide and hypochlorite bleaches... it robs oxygen from the stain. Oxalic acid is really a crystalline form of carbon monoxide, and it is naturally hungry for oxygen which turns it into CO2.


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## Bob Wingard (Jul 23, 2007)

KE6WNH said:


> Chlorine bleach will decompose into table salt, but do you really want that in the surface of the wood? Hydrogen peroxide is the oxidizing agent used in 2-part bleach, and the activator usually contains a trace of something alkaline like hydrated lime to liberate the oxygen. I've used 3% peroxide to bleach wood, but it takes a long time... however the advantage is you can get peroxide cheap at most 99 cent stores. If you want to make it into a peroxide gel, then you will need Cab-O-Sil or some other inert medium which contains no alkaline impurities.
> 
> Oxalic acid works exactly the opposite of peroxide and hypochlorite bleaches... it robs oxygen from the stain. Oxalic acid is really a crystalline form of carbon monoxide, and it is naturally hungry for oxygen which turns it into CO2.


C'mon .. how much salt is really in consumer grade bleach ?? and besides, since salt ionizes so readily, a simple wash down with warm water would remove all but a trace amount. What problems do you predict coming up later as a result of embedded salt in the wood ?? Most of the refinishing material I've read actually says to go to a swimming pool shop to get dry pool chemicals there and mix up your own bleach at a much stronger level to speed up the process. None of the books says anything about ill effects of using chlorine based bleach for just this situation. Rather than a "last resort" as mentioned by one person, in this instance, it would be my first choice since it is the one solution that almost all of the popular authors on the subject agree on. Chemistry, math, and theory are all great in their proper perspective, but I'll take the word of experienced Finishers/Refinishers/Authors like Bob Flexner & Jeff Jewett over all of that any time.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

The bleach isn't going to be on there long enough to turn into anything. I have used chlorine bleach to correct things that have been dyed the wrong color with water based dye stains and it worked incredibly well. The dye will pretty much disappear right as you wipe on the bleach. It's not like you leave it on overnight or anything. After bleaching a clear wash of water, let dry and sand. If there is any salt it will be on the floor in the sanding dust. The problem could be if you used an alcohol or acetone based NGR stain. These are micronized dyes and they will not go away so easily. The oxylic acid works best on black marks caused by metal reacting to the tannin in the wood or dark mineral streaks.


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## crkcustomcab charlie (Apr 9, 2009)

*Blotching maple and cherry*

Unfortunately your going to have to take the finish off and sand back down to bare wood...and based on the raised panels and trim, you're going to get out the elbow grease. Once you're back to square one here's the schedule that works for my shop. Sand to 180 to 220, any higher and you will burnish the wood and the finish won't adhere properly. Shoot a coat of Sealcoat onto the wood to fill the pores against deep penetration. Lightly sand the sealer to knock any grain down that gets lifted. Then apply coats of stain to the desired depth of color and then shoot another coat of sealcoat, sand smooth, 180, and finish with desired topcoat of your choice. This really minimizes blotching, and produces a beautiful final finish.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Wash with lacquer thinner


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## Bob Wingard (Jul 23, 2007)

crkcustomcab charlie said:


> Unfortunately your going to have to take the finish off and sand back down to bare wood...and based on the raised panels and trim, you're going to get out the elbow grease. Once you're back to square one here's the schedule that works for my shop. Sand to 180 to 220, any higher and you will burnish the wood and the finish won't adhere properly. Shoot a coat of Sealcoat onto the wood to fill the pores against deep penetration. Lightly sand the sealer to knock any grain down that gets lifted. Then apply coats of stain to the desired depth of color and then shoot another coat of sealcoat, sand smooth, 180, and finish with desired topcoat of your choice. This really minimizes blotching, and produces a beautiful final finish.


Help me out here .. .. if there is no finish over the dye, why would/should he need to sand anything ?? If bleaching removes the dye, sanding at this juncture would only obliterate a lot of the detail in his work.


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