# The bane of my existence - drawer questions please



## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm about to tackle drawers for the 3rd time - first 2 times I gave up.

This time what I plan on doing is making drawer boxes without sides - kinda more like a drawer frame.

These drawers will be used under 2 of my work benches so they don't have to be too pretty - but I would like them to come out ok though... for a change .

Anyway, the questions:

I don't want to use drawer guides - that seems to be one of my problems. Instead I saw some drawers that use just a wooden runners that the drawer rests on and slide on.

Would using this technique allow the drawer to slide ok and not tilt out of the drawer slot? I'm not going to be dadoing the drawer sides.

The wood I'm using for the frames is common, 1x3 and for the runners I'm splitting a 1x2.

The drawers will be 1/2" sanded maple or birch ply not sure which yet.

One of my concerns is the type of wood I'm using for the runners is not hardwood - will that not allow the drawer to slide? I planned on using wax on the runners and the drawer bottoms.

Thanks as always in advance - once I start I'm going to post the progress up to the point I take an axe to the whole thing and make firewood


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm confused. Aren't drawers without sides called shelves?? We might need a rough drawing of what your trying to do.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Here ya go - this is what I am talking about with no sides, just a frame











See the runners?

Also, this is one unit - I'm going to build this in 3 units


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

Although I've built rough drawers for my garage storage, I've never tried to do them without using store-bought slides. Just too easy to install them, and they make opening and closing drawers filled with heavy stuff very easy.

Most of the drawers I've had/seen in bedroom suites are on wood guides like you show. Designed to hold clothes without a lot of weight. They work fine as long as you don't put too much in them. I've used bedroom chests of drawers for the garage before ... and too much weight will make the drawers less user friendly.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So the cabinet won't have sides, but the drawer will. Got it. 

The issue I see with this is there isn't anything keeping the drawer square in the opening as you pull it in and out. Otherwise it would work...

Any reason your avoiding drawer slides??


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Put a strip of formica for the drawers to slide on, smooth as silk and works very easy, can hardly tell the difference between slides and the formica strip.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

we have some Danish designed stuff - for the last near 50 years.... 

the drawers have a slot, the carcass has a rail.
looks like maple - it's hard. still works perfectly.

methinks both the rail&drawer body need to be hard hard hardwood. elsewise they'll rub&wear and get stickly / no more easy slide.

weight aka shelf loading will also play a role. a sock drawer does not impose the same conditions as a 20 lb air nailer......


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> So the cabinet won't have sides, but the drawer will. Got it.
> 
> The issue I see with this is there isn't anything keeping the drawer square in the opening as you pull it in and out. Otherwise it would work...
> 
> Any reason your avoiding drawer slides??


Good question and yes there is...

My 2 other tries were both with slides and I am unable to get the drawers measured correctly, the guides installed correctly and the drawers to actually roll in and out. They're always skewed so bad they won't slide, or they are installed so the drawer doesn't go all the way in or it goes in too far. It's really discouraging.

Plus it's an added expense I don't want to incur. I have some old slides I took out of older cheap furniture/desks that I use - but this method with the wood runners seems much easier to me.

I really need a win with drawers as it's stopping me from doing a lot of projects I have on my list. It's very discouraging to not be able to make drawers for my carts and tables.

BigJim - that's a great idea - and easy too - thanks!


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

New2
From your picture, it seems you have your plan and now ready to go. 
Your plans looks like a good one to me. 
I prefer a hardwood runner myself, but if you use softwood, use a harder softwood like yellow pine. Because this is for your shop, the drawers will eventually get a lot of weight, but the drawers will not get opened and closed as much as a kitchen drawer. 
I like to put a stop at the back of my drawers so they can't be pulled completely out without bypassing the stop. 
Also, I probably would not split the 1 X 2 for the glides. I'd use it as is which is only 3/4" X 1 1/2"
Pre-drill the guides to prevent splitting.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

Maybe you can tell us how you make your drawer frames and drawer boxes. We could give you some tips. It really sounds like you need the basics down. 

If they're not both square and in the right proportion to each other, you'll have trouble, as you've seen.

What type of material? What type of saw? Do you cut matching sides at once, or measure each one separately? How are you joining the drawer fronts/backs and sides? How do you approach the drawer bottoms? Do you make drawers from measurements, or to fit frames that are already completed?

Also start simple, with 1/2" plywood, butt joints, glue and then predrill for #6 screws. Work on getting those square before you move on.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I'd tend to agree....let's walk through drawers step by step and get their production done, then move on to their mounting. 

If the drawers aren't square or flat, they won't work on hardwood runners either.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Incase it's helpful, I showed my drawer construction step by step in my most recent project. 

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/shop-storage-131721/


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Also....one last thing. If your really set on not using slides, square drawers will still be really important. 

On the bottom row of drawers I notice there is a lip next to the slide that keeps the drawer from angling out the side of the cabinet. I'd make sure that was in all drawer openings to keep the drawers moving in and out straight. 

I'm not convinced you can't just use soft wood for runners on shop cabinets, my Inlaws cabinets in their kitchen used pine runners that functioned daily for 50 years until I tore them out last year. They had worn considerably, but they got used daily for 50 years.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Thanks all for the advice



sanchez said:


> What type of material?


Plywood is all I've used to date on anything



> What type of saw?


Delta 36-725


> Do you cut matching sides at once, or measure each one separately?


Usually I cut the 2 corresponding sides for the drawers together - but I did do the first by cutting and measuring each one separately - I've learned a lot since the first firewood... err drawers!


> How are you joining the drawer fronts/backs and sides?


I have a 90 degree jig I made, I clamp 1 front and 1 side, glue it, then brad nail, then the same for the other side except I use the side and the back. Then join the 2 units together. Now I have 4 - 90 degree clamps I use also.


> How do you approach the drawer bottoms?


I take a sheet of 1/4 and brad nail it to the bottom - no dados yet - although my bottoms always seem to be off by about 1/16. I thought my saw was out of alignment but I've checked it over and over and I can't see where it's out that much


> Do you make drawers from measurements, or to fit frames that are already completed?


Both actually - my first I tried to fit the drawers to the frames - that didn't work. The 2nd I made 3 drawers and figured I make the boxes to fit - they're not firewood yet, still sitting there while I scratch my head how to get them together!


> Also start simple, with 1/2" plywood, butt joints, glue and then predrill for #6 screws. Work on getting those square before you move on.


I always predrill - it's now a habit

Thanks for the advice


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Ryan, I saw your build and commented a few times on it - excellent looking cabinet



ryan50hrl said:


> Also....one last thing. If your really set on not using slides, square drawers will still be really important.
> 
> On the bottom row of drawers I notice there is a lip next to the slide that keeps the drawer from angling out the side of the cabinet. I'd make sure that was in all drawer openings to keep the drawers moving in and out straight.


I think that's part of the frame



> I'm not convinced you can't just use soft wood for runners on shop cabinets, my Inlaws cabinets in their kitchen used pine runners that functioned daily for 50 years until I tore them out last year. They had worn considerably, but they got used daily for 50 years.


Works for me 

Thanks as always for the advice


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

new2woodwrk said:


> Here ya go - this is what I am talking about with no sides, just a frame
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That type drawer system works however the drawers need to fit fairly snug or they will bind. Then sometimes the wood swells and binds the drawer. This system the drawer box can be made looser and will give you fewer problems.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> This system the drawer box can be made looser and will give you fewer problems.


Doesn't that require a router to cut out the center??


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> *I'm confused. Aren't drawers without sides called shelves??* We might need a rough drawing of what your trying to do.


I just spit my coffee all over the screen.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

subroc said:


> I just spit my coffee all over the screen.


I know right LOL


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2015)

new2woodwrk said:


> I know right LOL


That was no way directed at you or even about your learning curve. Just his comment was humorous.

I feel your pain. I am new to woodworking as well. Every step is a journey. I follow yours with interest.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

subroc said:


> That was no way directed at you or even about your learning curve. Just his comment was humorous.
> 
> I feel your pain. I am new to woodworking as well. Every step is a journey. I follow yours with interest.


Nah, I didn't take it that way at all - it was funny to me also


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Sorry guys...it wasn't meant to look down at you by any stretch....

I was just sitting at my desk really confused.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> Sorry guys...it wasn't meant to look down at you by any stretch....
> 
> I was just sitting at my desk really confused.


No need - I understood completely


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

new2woodwrk said:


> Doesn't that require a router to cut out the center??


You could make a wood slide with a T-slot to put on the underside of the drawer box or you can buy a plastic rear guide to put on the box. The beauty of the system is if for any reason the drawer doesn't close to the opening just right you can adjust the center rail left or right to make it fit right. You could also just make the strip square and make a square notch on the back of the drawer box. You would just have to put additional rails above the drawer box on each side to keep the front of the drawer from dropping when you open it up.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> You could make a wood slide with a T-slot to put on the underside of the drawer box or you can buy a plastic rear guide to put on the box. The beauty of the system is if for any reason the drawer doesn't close to the opening just right you can adjust the center rail left or right to make it fit right. You could also just make the strip square and make a square notch on the back of the drawer box. You would just have to put additional rails above the drawer box on each side to keep the front of the drawer from dropping when you open it up.


I got your last picture comment but I was called away before I could respond and now I can't find it. I don't think I will ever be able to operate a computer.


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

Someone I learned a lot from once called a drawer 'A box in a hole'. Seems like that is what you are trying to do. One of the advanages to this approach, you can pull the drawer out and set it next to the work, which can be useful at times, for example I have a divided tray with 13 Japanese chisels in it. I set it near where I am working as I tend to move from one size to another. 

For shop drawers a Kreg Pocket Hole jig is a very effective way to attach the sides to the back and front.
I like to use screen door pulls for drawer pulls, $1.75 ea. and they look correct to me.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

@*Steve Neul* - I think that channel needs a router to cut the channel correct?

I don't have a router set up that will do that yet - I have a router (old craftsman industrial), I have router bits (1/4 and 1/2 shank) - I have no table and no idea how to use the router without a table yet - haven't read that book yet LOL

@*Brian(J)* - I use those handles for some of my cabinet doors that I made - I also have some old kitchen cabinet handles I will use 

I like recycling stuff and getting reuse out of items


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

new2woodwrk said:


> @*Steve Neul* - I think that channel needs a router to cut the channel correct?
> 
> I don't have a router set up that will do that yet - I have a router (old craftsman industrial), I have router bits (1/4 and 1/2 shank) - I have no table and no idea how to use the router without a table yet - haven't read that book yet LOL
> 
> ...


A router would be better but you could make that rail that fits in the cabinet with a table saw. It's just the one on the bottom of the drawer if you didn't use the plastic clip you would have to have a router for. There is also another style which the parts are more like a dovetail which you could make both pieces with a table saw.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Ok, here's the update on my drawers...

I learned 2 new terms yesterday and had an opportunity to use both - Rails and Stiles!

I began work this morning on the rails and stiles (like that?  ) for my drawer frames - was going to start with 1.

Here's the pics of the build...

Cut the rails and stiles










Measured - all equal length - cut all the stiles at once, cut all the rails at once and cut the runners at once.





































So far so good

I have a single kreg pocket hole jig but didn't work very well - wouldn't join the wood (no gluing):










2" inch screws? Nope too long










Nope too long and the single kreg didn't work - went to Lowe's and bought the R3 pocket jig - I'm now $43 poorer for it  but it seem to work to get the holes drilled

Ok, the R3 seemed to work - helps to read the instructions... Clamp one stile to one rail and get ready to screw in and join










Strike 1 - the stile split - cut another stile










Strike 2 - split stile #2 - cut another stile...










And there we have it ladies and gentleman - strike three and we're out! Like the say 3 strikes and you're out!!!










3 stiles all split using 1 1/4" wood screws! Now I'm out of all the wood I bought the other day - good thing I didn't buy really good wood or I would be one really pissed off firewood maker 

Like I said - drawers are the bane of my existence. 

I can take a hint - no more drawers for me! Shelves and cabinets are all I can build.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Did you use kreg jig screws, or cheap construction screws? 

Head shape matters for pocket holes. 


Also, did you adjust your pocket hole jig for the wood thickness?


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> Did you use kreg jig screws, or cheap construction screws?


Used the Kreg - 1 1/4" coarse



> Head shape matters for pocket holes.


Figured that's why it came with the screws



> Also, did you adjust your pocket hole jig for the wood thickness?


Yes, set both the drill bit and the jig for 3/4" - the single one I had didn't have an adjustment but the R3 had lots of instructions - followed them to a T.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

What did you use to install the screws? Possible you over tightened them??


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> What did you use to install the screws? Possible you over tightened them??


Probably - I used my drill - I always use my drill for something like this.

I guess the difference is I can't tell when they're tight and keep spinning the screws?


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

Am I missing something? You want to build utility drawers for your work shop, but you're trying rail-and-style drawer fronts before you even have drawers? Or are you using the rail-and-stile construction for some other part of the drawer?

Start with a few simple drawers.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Thanks Mike,

I can make the simple drawers (well kinda) - it's getting them into something so they roll in and out that is the real problem

I've tried:



 Making a frame - that was today's fiasco - was trying to make a drawer frame and use wood runners instead of guides. Kept splitting the wood when joining the rails and stiles using pocket holes with a R3 Kreg jig - I think ryan is right and I was tightening the screws too much. Problem for me is I have severe CTS (carpal tunnel) in both my hands and using pressure with them sets it off - so using a screw driver for example will set off my CTS for days
 Making a box - I've tried this method twice - first time the drawers fit in the box but they didn't roll properly - I used guides I had from old drawers and cabinets - they wouldn't pull out without great force - they weren't too tight the guides were skewed probably not level or something properly
2nd time I'm still working on - I have 3 drawers made sitting in one of my carts needing a box (3/4" ply - I seem to work well with 3/4" ply) I can't get the box measured correctly so haven't put them together yet. When I try to measure the width of the box and cut a piece it's either too short or too long

I think you're all caught up now


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

What kind of drill do you have? Does it have an adjustable clutch??


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

Take a look at the first picture. You showed us that you were using screws like the ones on the left. Those are wood screws, not pocket hole screws. The bugle head will keep going as far into the wood as you can push it. You have to use the screws that look like the other two. The self tapping tips and pan heads are the key.

Now make sure your kreg jig and drill bit are set like in the next two pictures. If your having trouble splitting, set the drill bit stop to 5/8".

Finally, set your drill like in the last picture. Use the low speed and set the clutch low, maybe down to 4 since you're using pine.. As soon as the two boards are tight, that's enough on the screws.


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

ryan50hrl said:


> What kind of drill do you have? Does it have an adjustable clutch??


I have a Black & Decker 24v

Yes it does have adjustments, but I've never used the adjustment


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## new2woodwrk (Mar 16, 2015)

Thanks @sanchez

Yes I did all that except the clutch adjustment

As far as the picture - I didn't get to use that screw so it was a bad example - I used it for length comparison BEFORE I bought the R3 since my single kreg didn't have any adjustments - it was all guess work and I guessed wrong 

At least the new jig I have (R3) has instructions and adjustments


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

One more thing. You now have all that wood that you describe as "Firewood". I never try a new technique on the finished product, no matter what hobby I am pursuing. I tie flies, but a new tying technique gets "learned" on a bare hook until I understand it.

Use up a length of scrap just drilling and screwing in kreg jig joints.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

mikechell said:


> Use up a length of scrap just drilling and screwing in kreg jig joints.


This is probably one of the most important tips in this whole thread! Practice on scrap.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So turn the clutch down to about 1/4 the max, then try driving your kreg screws again.


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