# Questions about finishing douglas fir...



## TheRecklessOne

This door is in 2 other posts in this forum. It's kind of becoming a pain in my neck. 

This is my dilemma. The 7 or so different colors of paint I stripped from the inside face of the door relatively easily. The outside I had to break out the heat gun to get the final layer off. Now that I have over 90% of the door bare wood I'd like to consider finishing it today and tomorrow at the latest. Here are my questions.

1. The outside of the door has some dark sappy spots in it. Will the wood/stain conditioner "neutralize" those areas? I know doug fir needs a wood conditioner so it's not blotchy.

2. If the wood/stain conditioner won't fix it am I better off painting the outside face with exterior paint?

3. If I do stain the outside should I use a marine grade or exterior stain if I plan to poly the entire door with a marine grade polyuerathane?

Any comments about what I should and shouldn't do sanding the door right now will be more than appreciated. I'm going back outside to finish sanding the remaining paint off with 80 grit on my random orbit sander and then I'll smooth the entire door over with 120 and the random orbit sander.

This door is 60 years old and in great shape so I really want to do the craftsman of this door and the door itself justice by doing it right. :help::help::help:

P.s. what would be the best kind of wood filler for accepting stain and blending in the best?


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## cabinetman

I've refinished several exterior doors and fabricated from scratch a Mahogany entry door. If the door is stripped down to bare wood (and it may take several applications), and is ready for finish, conditioning may prevent splotching, and may not.

I've had my fill with stains and marine spar varnishes. They all fail sooner or later, and most of the time it's sooner. If a clear/stained finish is desired I would use just a plain oiled finish, like BLO, or pure Tung Oil. There isn't any sanding per se to do when reapplication is necessary. There isn't much UV protection, but it is the most natural wood friendly finish. 

My last door I opted to use paint, as that is, IMO, the best protection.


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## TheRecklessOne

Thanks cabinetman! If I use BLO(?) or tung oil that won't make it darker. I'm looking to stain it much darker than natural. Is tung oil something I put on after the stain? I'm very new to finishing wood...
:tongue_smilie:


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## cabinetman

I stain, and then oil. BLO will add an amber tint, whereas pure Tung oil won't. Pure Tung oil will take a bit longer to dry. You can experiment with samples and add stain to the oil, or just stain first, and then oil.


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## jerry

I also have finished and refinished many doors and have found paint to be the longest lasting finish for exterior doors.

Regards

Jerry


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## TheRecklessOne

When staining should I opt for gel, water, or oil based stain? I've gel stained before and it was pretty easy. Should I sand after I condition the wood?


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## Jdurg

TheRecklessOne said:


> Thanks cabinetman! If I use BLO(?) or tung oil that won't make it darker. I'm looking to stain it much darker than natural. Is tung oil something I put on after the stain? I'm very new to finishing wood...
> :tongue_smilie:


BLO is Boiled Linseed Oil, I believe. (Just in case the (?) was because you didn't know what BLO was. :smile: )


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## TheRecklessOne

HAHA thanks a lot! I figured it out after a trip to Home Depot today.


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## toddj99

TheRecklessOne said:


> HAHA thanks a lot! I figured it out after a trip to Home Depot today.


If you decide to use tung oil, do not use the minwax or formby's tung oil finish - it is not tung oil and actually has little to no tung oil in it - they are more of a wiping varnish. Home Depot nor Lowes does not sell pure tung oil.


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## TheRecklessOne

Here's the plan my wife and I have formulated...

We haven't had a back door on our house in a week + so we're going to paint the outside face and all edges with 2 coats exterior grade primer until we decide what color we're going to side our house. The interior face of the door: after conditioning the surface, giving it a light sanding, we're going to stain it a dark "red mahogany" because it closely matches the cabinets we're installing shortly. Then I'm painting the window mouldings, trim and panels black to accent the counter tops we're putting on those cabinets. 
To finish and protect the stained interior I'll be applying 2 coats of satin poly, sanding, finish coat of satin poly.

I'll probably even add a UV blocking film to the windows, adding new hardware, etc....

Do you fellas see any problems with this plan as of yet?


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## TheRecklessOne

Quick update...Turned out the exact color we wanted...I tested the stain on the home made threshold I made from so called doug fir select from Lowe's. The best 2 pieces I found were still garbage...the threshold took almost as much sanding as the door.


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## Gerry KIERNAN

That door is cleaning up pretty nice Reckless.

Gerry


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## mattcas

*Questions about finishing douglas fir*

To The reckless one - I read your posts about your douglas fir door and I have a similar situation - but here's my problem. I have a brand new douglas fir screen door that I want to stain EXACTLY like you did. I have gotten some sample douglas fir planks from local lumber yard to try different stains on and no matter if I try a light or dark stain - it ends up looking VERY STRIPED. The lighter areas of the wood do not pick up the stain and the dark grain picks up it all. I do not like this look. Here's what I did - sanded 120 - sanded 220 - put pre-stain on as directed - put minwax early american stain on - sit 5 minutes - wipe with rag - let sit overnight - did same thing two more times - still too light and STRIPED! I sampled minwax red mahogany (love the color on the can) as well as jacobean (very dark) - same thing happens but the stripes are just darker!! Can't get the uniform look. I plan to finish with a marine matte varnish - but am stuck right now just getting a nice dark uniform color. Can you tell me exactly what you did to get the even coverage of color?


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## jlhaslip

try a second coat


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## Gerry KIERNAN

You could try a solid colour stain, although the door may end up looking a bit like it was painted, not stained.

Gerry


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## SunsetAvenue

*Same stripey problem with Doug fir*

Same here!! Please help!

I just stripped all the trim in my house because it was a blotchy, gewy cherry mess. I'm trying to stain it darker like you are and can't get the light stripes to accEpt the stain-- what gives?

Also, is there anyone out there who has stained clear Doug fir a dark brown with good results? What brand/color? I have a 1929 Spanish bungalow so dark brown would fit the aesthetic - but is that a no-no with clear vert Doug? I'm a complete novice and scared to make a very expensive mistake. Thanks!



mattcas said:


> To The reckless one - I read your posts about your douglas fir door and I have a similar situation - but here's my problem. I have a brand new douglas fir screen door that I want to stain EXACTLY like you did. I have gotten some sample douglas fir planks from local lumber yard to try different stains on and no matter if I try a light or dark stain - it ends up looking VERY STRIPED. The lighter areas of the wood do not pick up the stain and the dark grain picks up it all. I do not like this look. Here's what I did - sanded 120 - sanded 220 - put pre-stain on as directed - put minwax early american stain on - sit 5 minutes - wipe with rag - let sit overnight - did same thing two more times - still too light and STRIPED! I sampled minwax red mahogany (love the color on the can) as well as jacobean (very dark) - same thing happens but the stripes are just darker!! Can't get the uniform look. I plan to finish with a marine matte varnish - but am stuck right now just getting a nice dark uniform color. Can you tell me exactly what you did to get the even coverage of color?


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## JW_in_Indy

Douglas Fir does not take a penetrating stain nearly as well as some other woods. You need to use either a dye based stain that is sprayed or a gel based stain which is wiped. As with nearly anything, the higher quality the product used, the better the end results. If using a gel stain (which is what I would do), I would steer WELL clear of the Minwax crapola. Their idea of a gel stain is very runny with gritty pigment that you can actually feel when you rub it between your fingers. However, open a can of General Finishes gel stain http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/oil-base-wood-stains-sealers/oilbase-gel-stains and immediately see the difference. It is very thick, almost like a yougart and quite smooth. It's a dream to use on difficult to stain woods.


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## SunsetAvenue

JW_in_Indy said:


> Douglas Fir does not take a penetrating stain nearly as well as some other woods. You need to use either a dye based stain that is sprayed or a gel based stain which is wiped.
> 
> Thanks, JW - do you advise against going too dark brown (royal mahogony) with Doug Fir?
> 
> Reckless One, did you use a gel stain to achieve such an even, rich surface?


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## cabinetman

SunsetAvenue said:


> JW_in_Indy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Douglas Fir does not take a penetrating stain nearly as well as some other woods. You need to use either a dye based stain that is sprayed or a gel based stain which is wiped.
> 
> Thanks, JW - do you advise against going too dark brown (royal mahogony) with Doug Fir?
> 
> Reckless One, did you use a gel stain to achieve such an even, rich surface?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotten good results with sanding to 150x-180x. Applying a conditioner, and using a wipe on pigmented oil base stain. It may take more than one stain application. Topcoat with a satin or semi-gloss.
> 
> In some cases spraying a blush mist of stain to even out the coloring helps.
Click to expand...


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## JW_in_Indy

Spraying a dye type stain or even a very high quality pigment based stain would probably be best because of the more control you typically have with toning and shading. But not all of us DIY'ers have spray equipment or more importantly, the proper space needed to do a good job spraying. If wiping on a penetrating stain on something like DF, I'd bet it _WOULD_ take several coats to even remotely come out even. With a gel type stain on something like DF, you tend to have a bit more control for wiping and is a good compromise IMHO.

Of course, like anything, YMMV, FWIW, IMHO, just my $0.02 and all that.


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## JW_in_Indy

> Thanks, JW - do you advise against going too dark brown (royal mahogony) with Doug Fir?


Grab some scrap and start playing with whatever color suits your fancy. Like CM recommends, a conditioner will help in reducing splotchy-ness common with this wood. Instead of off the shelf wood conditioners, I like using a 1# cut of dewaxed shellac, or buy the Zinnser/Bullseye sanding sealer which is a 2# cut of dewaxed shellac and cut it 50/50 with DNA. A couple of coats of this pre-conditioner prior to using the GF gel stain.... and you will get a lovely, even stain job on a typically, difficult wood to get an even color.

Just keep track of EXACTLY what you did on the back of each piece of scrap so that you have a recorded finish schedule that is repeatable on a larger scale. I can't tell you how many times I didn't write things down on the back thinking "oh, I'll remember" and when push came to shove.... I couldn't and had to start all over.


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## cabinetman

JW_in_Indy said:


> Grab some scrap and start playing with whatever color suits your fancy. Like CM recommends, a conditioner will help in reducing splotchy-ness common with this wood. Instead of off the shelf wood conditioners, I like using a 1# cut of dewaxed shellac, or buy the Zinnser/Bullseye sanding sealer which is a 2# cut of dewaxed shellac and cut it 50/50 with DNA. A couple of coats of this pre-conditioner prior to using the GF gel stain.... and you will get a lovely, even stain job on a typically, difficult wood to get an even color.
> 
> Just keep track of EXACTLY what you did on the back of each piece of scrap so that you have a recorded finish schedule that is repeatable on a larger scale. I can't tell you how many times I didn't write things down on the back thinking "oh, I'll remember" and when push came to shove.... I couldn't and had to start all over.



I prefer to use purpose prepared conditioner instead of shellac. There is the possibility of sealing versus conditioning the wood. There is a difference. Shellac seals, conditioner doesn't.


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## JW_in_Indy

cabinetman said:


> I prefer to use purpose prepared conditioner instead of shellac. There is the possibility of sealing versus conditioning the wood. There is a difference. Shellac seals, conditioner doesn't.


 
I'm surprised to hear you say that CM. Since most off the shelf "wood conditioners" acording to Bob Flexner are nothing more than some type of thinned varnish. And last time I checked, varnish _*seals*_ wood yes?

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Wood_Conditioner_Confusion/

It's just a matter then of finding what type of product you like to use. Many pro's (like Flexner points out) simply use a thinned coat of finish lacquer as a spit or wash coat, which also is a sealer and will "seal" the wood prior to staining. This "sealing" process is what actually helps eliminate the blotching so typical of woods like Pine, Birch, Poplar and Fir. 

I like using shellac because, well.... I like using shellac. In all of it's glorious forms. Dark amber flakes some of which are nearly black, to the blondest white/clear flakes and all of the wonderful colors in between. Some on this board quite often recommend using a thinned version of latex paint before any pigment is added as a wash coat, spit coat, pre treatment or wood conditioner. All with the same goal in mind.... to even out the color penetration on a typically difficult type of wood to get even coloring and to reduce the blotching.

But to say that wood conditioner doesn't seal the wood (in some form anyway) isn't entirely accurate IMHO. Even from the manufacturers who tend to be quite mum on exactly what their "wood conditioners" actually are. I think if most folks knew they were buying a thinned down varnish (or a propriatary urethane resin of some sort cut with mineral spirits) and paying a premium for it simply because it said wood conditioner, well they might just learn how to mix shellac flakes or cut some varnish or urethane with mineral spirits and save a whole bunch of money. :yes:

In the end, like I've said many times.... take what I say with a grain of salt folks. I'm just a DIY'er that's been making mistakes on finishing and refinishing furniture (wood) since I was in my late teens. Notice I said mistakes. I've screwed up more pieces of wood in my time than many will ever attempt to stain or finish. But, I'm no pro by any means. I've just learned what works for me through a lot of reading and research and then even more trial and error. Way before the internet, the former wife and I bought beat up antiques from estate auctions and restored them. We read everything we could get our hands on at the time. So I encourage others to do the same (research and read). And of course, to practice on scrap before tackling an entire project. I've built up quite the collection of scrap wood with finishing schedules written on the back that I keep for reference.

In the end folks.... IMHO, FIWI, YMMV, just my $0.02 and all that.


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## cabinetman

JW_in_Indy said:


> I'm surprised to hear you say that CM. Since most off the shelf "wood conditioners" acording to Bob Flexner are nothing more than some type of thinned varnish. And last time I checked, varnish _*seals*_ wood yes?



Why are you surprised? Because I don't always agree with you? I've read Bob Flexner and Jeff Jewitt. They are both good authors and put forth their experience with finishing techniques. Sometimes they are in agreement and sometimes they are not. If you have time, you should write a book and delineate your experience. 

Without playing a semantics game, I will agree that varnish seals wood. That can be part of the problem. Do you want the wood sealed, or do you prefer to have soft and hard grain, or light and dark areas (as in sapwood and heartwood), to accept stain or dye evenly?




JW_in_Indy said:


> It's just a matter then of finding what type of product you like to use. Many pro's (like Flexner points out) simply use a thinned coat of finish lacquer as a spit or wash coat, which also is a sealer and will "seal" the wood prior to staining. This "sealing" process is what actually helps eliminate the blotching so typical of woods like Pine, Birch, Poplar and Fir.
> 
> I like using shellac because, well.... I like using shellac. In all of it's glorious forms. Dark amber flakes some of which are nearly black, to the blondest white/clear flakes and all of the wonderful colors in between. Some on this board quite often recommend using a thinned version of latex paint before any pigment is added as a wash coat, spit coat, pre treatment or wood conditioner. All with the same goal in mind.... to even out the color penetration on a typically difficultthat", or type of wood to get even coloring and to reduce the blotching.



I try not to suggest products or procedures that I haven't personally used. There is a lot of "I heard", or recommending or repeating what someone else said in a forum. Some myths get propagated to the point of being taken as truths. Some procedures get misunderstood in the same manner. I'm not saying you are guilty of this. What I am saying is that advice should be checked out and tried before time and money is spent. 

Hopefully with a discussion board various suggestions will likely be offered, and it's up to the discerning craftsman to make critical decisions based on that advice.

Some conditioners may be just a thinned version of a varnish. Reading the labels may not tell all. Using a fast dry base for a conditioner may seal too well. It may be too hard to control on larger areas, especially if there is overlap. Using shellac can be a problem as the alcohol evaporates fast, and the concentration of the mix changes proportionally. Many conditioners require them to be still wet when applying stain or dye. 



JW_in_Indy said:


> But to say that wood conditioner doesn't seal the wood (in some form anyway) isn't entirely accurate IMHO. Even from the manufacturers who tend to be quite mum on exactly what their "wood conditioners" actually are. I think if most folks knew they were buying a thinned down varnish (or a propriatary urethane resin of some sort cut with mineral spirits) and paying a premium for it simply because it said wood conditioner, well they might just learn how to mix shellac flakes or cut some varnish or urethane with mineral spirits and save a whole bunch of money. :yes:


IMO, what I'm after is not to seal the wood. Sealing is a type of barrier that becomes a preventive coating which could defeat the application of stain (coloring). I've made my own conditioners from many types of chemicals in search of what works good and what doesn't. My suggestion of what I used for a particular species of wood, prepped for a finish with a certain schedule, and outlining what worked as a conditioner, with what stain and finish over all that, may not work for someone else.

Too many variables in the procedure that may have worked for me, but not someone else. A few dabs or drips of mix one way or another can make a difference in how the wood gets conditioned. My contention in conditioning is to try to regulate how absorbtive the wood will be, not the degree of how sealed it will be. I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but experimenting is knowledge. 

So, for suggestions on conditioners, there are many available to use that work differently. Some for oil base, some for water base. So, I suggested using those. A home brew may work as well or better. It's not easy playing chemist, especially if you're not patient.



JW_in_Indy said:


> In the end, like I've said many times.... take what I say with a grain of salt folks.
> In the end folks.... IMHO, FIWI, YMMV, just my $0.02 and all that.


That goes for me too.:yes:


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## JW_in_Indy

cabinetman said:


> *Why are you surprised? Because I don't always agree with you?* I've read Bob Flexner and Jeff Jewitt. They are both good authors and put forth their experience with finishing techniques. Sometimes they are in agreement and sometimes they are not. If you have time, you should write a book and delineate your experience.


No, not at all. On the contrary, it is me who usually always agrees with _*YOU*_. It just surprised me when you said what you did about wood conditioners not sealing wood but conditioning them. When in fact, if they are indeed some sort of ultra thinned varnish, they will seal the wood somewhat. The more pourous areas will absorb a disproportionate amount of that sealer or conditioner.... thus evening out the final stain penetration. At least in theory. That's why it's always recommended to test on scrap and keep a finishing schedule. Now, as to writting a book.... LOL :laughing: I doubt very seriously that it would be all that interesting. Although, I would love to know if the ex-wife still has some of the pieces we did way back when. Many of them came out gorgeous.




cabinetman said:


> Without playing a semantics game, I will agree that varnish seals wood. That can be part of the problem. Do you want the wood sealed, or do you prefer to have soft and hard grain, or light and dark areas (as in sapwood and heartwood), to accept stain or dye evenly?


Well, having soft and hard grain isn't really the problem. I would venture that most enjoy the contrast between dark and light that the combination of soft and hard grain yields. It's the inconsistant porosity of the soft grain that tends to grab pigment unevenly causing the blotchiness. So, yes, IMHO (once again) you WANT that to be sealed up somewhat so that it does accept pigment more evenly and stain with as little blotchyness as possible.




cabinetman said:


> I try not to suggest products or procedures that I haven't personally used. There is a lot of "I heard", or recommending or repeating what someone else said in a forum. Some myths get propagated to the point of being taken as truths. Some procedures get misunderstood in the same manner. I'm not saying you are guilty of this. What I am saying is that advice should be checked out and tried before time and money is spent.


Totally agree here. Hence my comment to grab some scrap and start practicing and keeping track by making a finish schedule on the back of each piece of scrap. Early on, I wasn't very good at keeping track and would "forget" the exact steps I used to achieve my desired result and would screw up my piece. Now, I'm nearly anal about keeping track so that something is repeatable when I find something I like.



cabinetman said:


> ....Some conditioners may be just a thinned version of a varnish. Reading the labels may not tell all. Using a fast dry base for a conditioner may seal too well. It may be too hard to control on larger areas, especially if there is overlap. Using shellac can be a problem as the alcohol evaporates fast, and the concentration of the mix changes proportionally. Many conditioners require them to be still wet when applying stain or dye.


Again, agree completely here as well. I often recommend thinned down shellac as both a spit/wash coat (usually a 1# cut) as well as a seal coat after staining to really pop the grain and start the finish build (usually a 2# cut). I love working with shellacs. But I agree, there is a bit of a learning curve and you do need to work fairly quickly. But call me a geezer, old timer, hopeless romantic or whatever I am.... I love the old world finishes and techniques and tend to use them a lot. Even in combination with newer finishes and techniques. :wheelchair:



cabinetman said:


> IMO, what I'm after is not to seal the wood. Sealing is a type of barrier that becomes a preventive coating which could defeat the application of stain (coloring). I've made my own conditioners from many types of chemicals in search of what works good and what doesn't. My suggestion of what I used for a particular species of wood, prepped for a finish with a certain schedule, and outlining what worked as a conditioner, with what stain and finish over all that, may not work for someone else.


And therein lies the rub. Do you use some form of thined down preconditioner (sealer) to help seal the ultra porous portions of the wood reducing the blotchyness.... which then typically requires more coats of stain to get the color you want.... which THEN can lead to covering up some or nearly all of the grain depending on exactly what stain you use.... and on and on. It's a balancing act that has no single correct answer. There just isn't a single right way to do anything in staining and finishing and what works for me or you may not work for someone else.




cabinetman said:


> Too many variables in the procedure that may have worked for me, but not someone else. A few dabs or drips of mix one way or another can make a difference in how the wood gets conditioned. *My contention in conditioning is to try to regulate how absorbtive the wood will be, not the degree of how sealed it will be.* I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but experimenting is knowledge.


And that right there is where I think we are butting heads on semantics. All I am contending is a thined down varnish (or pick your resin of choice) that is used as a "wood conditioner," does in fact regulate absorbtion by virtue of the sealing process.... it HAS to by its very nature.




cabinetman said:


> So, for suggestions on conditioners, there are many available to use that work differently. Some for oil base, some for water base. So, I suggested using those. A home brew may work as well or better. It's not easy playing chemist, especially if you're not patient.


Again, I agree completely. Especially for a DIY'er like me that hasn't got the space or specialized tools a pro would have. Much less the knowlege a professional generally has on the VAST array of specialty chemicals, stains, sealers and finishes and how they interact with each other. So I tend to stick with the KISS method and keep things as simple as possible. Or stick with what has worked for me in the past. I just didn't do that well in chemistry. :blink:


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## hibrow

I have fir timbers at my front entrance. It's about 5 years old and was originally coated with Timberlox mixed with boiled linseed oil. The coating is fading etc. Some locations where UV was greatest, the varnish looks like its gone completely and the wood has greyed. I'm guessing I need to get down to bare wood again. What the best way to chemically strip, prepare (conditon) and then what natural finish provides the best durability? Ever hear of a product called Sansin? Any good contractors in the Edmonton, Alberta area?


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