# Technology VS. Handmade



## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

Technology VS. Handmade
I have had this debate several times over the years, and I think I am qualified on both sides of the pendulum swing between technology & manufacturing vs. handmade. 

I grew up in a small mountain valley, so remote that electricity had not yet been brought into the valley. I learned woodworking, carving, leather craft, weaving, and general hand building skills from my grandfather. All of this was done with out the use of power tools, (although, we did have a gas powered chain saw.)

After Graduating with an industrial electronics degree, I spent 15 years in industry as a field engineer. Most of those years I was fine tuning and retrofitting in line manufacturing equipment, as well as building custom machines.

Now I have combined my skills to use technology in assisting to create my art pieces. So here is the argument that I hear from some of my “pure” artist friends who contend it is not artistry if technology is used in the process. I have a real problem with this, because unless you gather the natural materials yourself, and use NO tools to create a piece, you are using technology of some kind in the process. I believe that the mind is the artists true tool, and that what comes out of the vapors of the artists imagination is the art. It is the imagination and ingenuity combined with all of the life experience of the artist that culminate into an art piece. Part of that experience is the materials and technology and how they can be combined to create a new and original piece. My best argument for this is photography. A camera does not produce a work of art. Put that camera in the hands of a skilled photographer, with vision, and you may get a work of art. But that work of art is trapped inside of the camera, only by applying even more technology can we get it out of the camera, and onto the gallery wall to then finally judge for ourselves, is it art?

What is your opinion?

What kinds of technology do you use to create your art?

Show us pictures!

Here is the work of Creativa Artisan & Design Group. Creativa is a company that I formed that combines the skills of many artists and craftsmen, as well as the use of technology to produce upper scale projects for our clients. I will leave it to you to decide, is it art? Here is the video that showcases our work; 

http://tinyurl.com/cn4sww

or go to our facebook page the video is hosted there as well; http://tinyurl.com/d3mhbh 

I will do more posts in this thread about the technologies that we use to create these pieces.

Thank you


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

Sorry - to be simple. Most of the debates I have read are between "electric vs. non-electric". This can be fun, and should be. 

The only other combination I can possibly imagine would be between "digital vs non-digital". Other than that... I think it's too hard to "set the stops"... the discussion could go on forever. 

I try to imagine things from a buyer's point of view. 
Would I spend the extra bucks because it was made by hand... ???


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## Julian the woodnut (Nov 5, 2008)

I like to use machines because it helps speed up the process, BUT I really like to use hand tools when I can. There is a connection to the wood that you don't get when working with power tools. Take cutting and chiseling hand cut dovetails for instance. There is something to relaxing and satisfying about it that it's almost zenlike to me. Even the act of sharpening chisels and resharpening my handsaws falls into this category, albeit not as much fun as actually using the tools.


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

If god didn't want us to use power tools, he wouldn't have created electricity.

In woodworking there's far more hard physical labor than in painting for instance. And it makes a big difference if your trying to sell your "art" in order to make a living, since it's very few people who would pay the sum of your hourly rate if you did everything by hand. The difference between "business" and "hobby."


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

Good points, let me flesh it out a little bit. I can and have for years used hand tools, however in order to achieve greater throughput I have transitioned to CNC technology. The final product is still hand worked, the artistry is still involved, but many of the time consuming, and redundant processes have been shifted to the CNC. 

So a furniture artist friend of mine tells me I'm taking away the artistry of the craft, by utilizing my CNC. I then asked him about his table saw, does he use the fence to guide materials through the saw, or does he free hand it? What about your patterns, I ask, you use those to transfer a line onto your stock, or as a routing template, right? The technology I use is the digital equivalent of a saw fence or pattern. 

Every piece I build is still a one-of-a-kind. It still has to stand as a quality design, the fit, finish, carving, hand-painting, etc. must still meet the clients expectation. Any technology, is still subservient to the imagination and ingenuity of the operator.

Here is what I think the difference is. People tend to appreciate the skill, patience, and dedication needed to create a piece with less technology. Where as a piece created with a great deal of technology is expected to be executed well. We expect someone who uses a table saw to cut a board straighter than someone with just a hand saw. 

I obviously fall on the side of the fence for using technology, and that the technology used does not detract from the artistry of the final product. What I hope for more than a debate is to see other peoples creations in the context of this discussion. How do you use technology, or not use technology. I would also love to see your ingenuity in this same context. Have you ever used a technology for something different than what it is designed for? Have you ever built something without a technology that would normally be used to build that item? Have you taken the use of technology to an art form? Share your pictures in this context. I would love to see them!


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Hi TwoA,
Welcome to the forum. Interesting topic. I can see both sides of the story. It would seem like the jump up to a CNC machine does normally invoke thoughts of mass production. But it sounds like you are using the machine to do the rough shape and then still finish it by hand. I wouldn't worry so much about what the other furniture makers or the like think, it really depends on what your customers think. If they are happy with the finished product and you haven't lied to them and told them you did the whole thing by hand, that's what should matter. It's kind of like the amish myth around here. In Ohio, we have a lot of amish. There are a lot of furniture shops selling their wares. They promote it like it is handcrafted. But it's all done in a production shop with modern machinery. The only difference is maybe the shop is powered by a diesel generator instead of plugging into the grid. Nothing wrong with what they make, all nice solid stuff. But there does seem do be some hypocrisy in the way they do it. I would say do what you want and what makes you happy. If you're happy, who cares what the purist think. 
Mike Hawkins


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

I like to use technology in my own way. I don't really care why someone else uses the hand or power tools they use, but I will try something new to see if it fits into my own methods. I am all for speeding up the process, but I don't feel the need to use a power tool for every thing I do. I hardly sand anymore for my health, scrapers and planes except for the final bit. I also learned to use hand saws properly because I found it takes less time to make a cut or two that way. On the flip side, I sure want a mortiser, which some would not consider an important tool, now that I have hand cut mortises in brazilian cherry. Some people like to use tools so they make something. Some people like to make things that require tools to do it.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Great work and welcome to the forum.*

Good tools make good woodworkers better. They dont do a damned thing for someone without talent. 

High tech tools allow an artist to express himself in a way that was not possible before. Again, for the untalented.......nada. 

Here is the controversial part....Many furniture designers and makers working in wood are not necessarily woodworkers. They are artists. Just so happens that their medium is wood. It's kinda like calling a steel sculptor a welder. 

The average uninitiated person that is not familiar with woodworking can be easily impressed with the woodworking jargon and some basic concepts. That does not make him/her a buyer or collector. What sells furniture or any other decorative art is the design. If someone likes a design they dont know or care about how it is made. They like what they see and unconsciously put a value to it. This perceived value has nothing to do with how many hours it took or what the raw materials cost or whether it was machine made or hand made. 

Throughout the ages, the best artisans have used the very best tools they could get their hands on. If they couldnt afford to buy them, they made them. And what they made in the way of tools could be considered works of art. Early apprentices were taught by their masters how to make tools and tool chests. This concept goes back way before the pyramids. 

Obviously I am a fan of technology.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I spent 25 yrs modeling clay by hand*

Having a MFA in Industrial Design, and working at General Moters Design Staff, I designed and sculpted automotive thermal setting or wax based clay using scrapers, steels, knives, straight edges, templates made of wood, and measure with millimeter scales. All done by eye and by hand until.... the digital age evolved and the 5 axis mills came along. We were given a choice, learn the new techology or stay with the old. After years of experience I could create/model one half of a scale model 1/3 car design from a sketch faster than a designer could create it in a 3D modeling program and have it milled into the clay. Kind of like John Henry and the Steam Drill. I stayed with the old, since old dogs don't easily learn new tricks...It was all very creative, artistic and great fun. The clay model was necessary to see the design full size since looking at a 2 dimensional flat screen, even full size to view a 3 dimension object doesn't work that well. I don't know the method Design studios use today. But I use every technology I can, to make things out of wood, metal, plastic whether they are pure art, furniture or home improvements.
I once made a 5' diameter fountain with 5 heads, created the disc out of plaster, cast it in fibreglass, turned the heads in a lathe, powered the 5 pumps with a dishwasher timer. Things happened unexpectedly ...all pumps on , one on, two on and so forth. It was a thing of beauty! This was in 1966. That's my story..well almost!
:yes:bill


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

Great replies.

Tony your comments so nailed my position. I make alot of my own tools and jigs. Here are a few things I've made that are a little out of the ordinary. A 3-D laser scanner. A CNC router (I just uploaded the photos). One of my guys accused me of making jigs to make other jigs. I build many jigs for holding and indexing parts, or for complex glue ups.

As for worrying about what other guys think about my process, I don't. But their comments make good examples for this discussion, and they might read it, so I get to zing them again! Believe me, I am as happy as a clam with what I do, could not see myself doing anything else.

I will post more photos, if you can't wait, then go here and play the video.

http://tinyurl.com/d3mhbh

Great comments


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Great Stuff*



twoartistic said:


> Great replies.
> 
> I will post more photos, if you can't wait, then go here and play the video.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I couldn't wait.
Look through the forum info and make your link part of your signature. That way, whenever you post, your link will always be there. This forum also has "photo albums" that can be included as part of your profile.


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> Having a MFA in Industrial Design, and working at General Moters Design Staff, I designed and sculpted automotive thermal setting or wax based clay using scrapers, steels, knives, straight edges, templates made of wood, and measure with millimeter scales. All done by eye and by hand until.... the digital age evolved and the 5 axis mills came along. We were given a choice, learn the new techology or stay with the old. After years of experience I could create/model one half of a scale model 1/3 car design from a sketch faster than a designer could create it in a 3D modeling program and have it milled into the clay. Kind of like John Henry and the Steam Drill. I stayed with the old, since old dogs don't easily learn new tricks...It was all very creative, artistic and great fun. The clay model was necessary to see the design full size since looking at a 2 dimensional flat screen, even full size to view a 3 dimension object doesn't work that well. I don't know the method Design studios use today. :yes:bill


The software has come a long ways, but it is still challenging to create accurate organic shapes, such as a horse with proper confirmation from scratch inside the software. Movie and game figures are easier, after all who's going to say that the hump on the monsters back is too big or too small. We use several technologies, some shapes are far easier to create in the software than by hand. A simple arc is a good example. While other shapes are easier to shape by hand. So some shapes we form into the material by hand, or in some cases we make a model by hand in clay or other easily workable material, then laser scan the model.

Here are a few photos that are good examples. 

The curved moldings on the entertainment center were built in software. I used sketch up to lay out a digital mock up of the material, so I could easily calculate the needed angles to create the glue up, and jig. Next I roughed out the basic form by CNC and then final shaping was done by hand. This is hands down faster in todays software, than by hand.

The tree is carved from architectural foam, then a special proprietary coating is applied. I made a digital model of the room, then made a model of the blocks that would be needed to get the final tree out of. I then hand carved the tree from the glued up blocks. The tree was built off site and shipped to the site. It is 11 ft tall, and the canopy spans an area of about 10' x 12'. I built the tree in 3 sections in order to get it through a 32" man door and into the room. Planning the logistics of getting the tree into the room, and accurately fitting the curved soffit was best done in the software, but the carving was best done by hand. Years ago I did some consulting for a company that was hired to do a massive statue for one of the casinos in Vegas. The same exact process was used, however carving the statue from the 3-D model had been considered. The bids for just the machine carving came back at more than the budget for the entire project.


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## Deadhead Derek (Dec 15, 2008)

TwoA, I enjoyed our talk on the phone, and again, want to thank you for floating this "debate" out here. I believe that there really isn't anything new under the sun, and as such, the use of tools in any form are still using tools. Were we all to simply find pretty rocks and branches and live with them in original form, then we are being "pure". But how long before we rub the rock on our clothes to polish it? and in that, change the nature of, well nature. We let the beauty of the medium out from it's original state. If it is based on an artistic temperment, then to me, it is art.


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## bzbatl (Feb 10, 2009)

There's haters in every hobby.

You should see the arguments about vinyl vs mp3s with MIDI controllers on the DJ forums.

My opinion: tools are tools. Great artists use whatever tools are available to them and feel "natural" to them. You can have all the greatest, most expensive pieces of technology available and make a piece of crap.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Two Artistic*

This is a very intriguing thread. and since things were getting a little dry here, this post opens some new discussions. The folks at Harbor Freight told me once that there customer base, is 55yrs and older, lower income and retired. I wouldn't put our folks in that demographic but there are a lot us us who are older and have come up through the trades or other hand crafted disciplines so high end technology is not a skill set we have acquired..now that's just my impression about our folks, no scientific basis for it, except the posts I have read. A survey might be fun to see how many folks have which type of background or skill set. I bought my 12 yr old son a Legos Robotic kit with a programable controller. Holy Socks, Batman! He took to it like falling off a log. They are teaching robotics and computer science in 7th and 8th grade now. Wow! He know stuff about Windows 2000 that I don't. So we are in a completely different era now. I like your applications in the photos, the marquetry, tree and so forth. So keep up the thread and the interest. :thumbsup: Thanks, bill


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Discussion of the week IMO, welcome 2-art.


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

*Daren nice wood*

Daren, I want to be your new best friend. Can you spare any of that wood for a friend .

I checked out your site, very nice.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I seem to make woodworker friends easy :laughing:, sure why not.


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

I use both, non-electric and electric whenever possible. The skill and patience that is learned from using hand tools is invaluable IMO.
My grandfather was a carpenter and farmer. His most valuable teaching was to do the very best you can do or don't do it at all when you build something. His command of hand and power tools was truly amazing. He took a college project made table saw and cut amazingly square cabinets with it. The saw was made by his son, my uncle in college as a project in machine shop class.

In my years in college, I made a benchtop jigsaw. I don't use it much anymore but it reminds me of the dedication and focus on accuracy and detail that always is put into a creation.

My suggestion is to use both whenever possible.

It will make you a better woodworker.

Ken


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## b00kemdano (Feb 10, 2009)

I've always liked to take junk and put it together to make something useful. I say use whatever means you have available to you to make whatever you can.

Let the critics kiss my butt! :thumbsup:


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

*Why worry about it?

Just do what comes naturally... and just let it happen...??

Have FUN!* :thumbsup:


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

*Same topic different opinions*

I started this same thread over on CNCzone.com a few days before I posted here. I thought it would be interesting to see what the opinions are from two different perspectives. They are much the same, but with one odd distinction. Some of the CNC guys, have a more narrow tolorance for technology being used in the preperation of a piece. I use the word "handmade" in my video, and I have been catching some of flack for it from the CNC guys. 

I am quoting this from the other forum.
In it's purest meaning only items fashioned completely by hand are handcrafted. Basket weaving from hand picked, hand washed, and hand sorted materials would qualify. Not much else would, because as soon as you pick up a stone, or a stick to grind, or leverage something you have just used a tool. So the broader meaning has come to include tools that are manipulated by hand. But does that mean that if you buy material that came from a mill, your piece is no longer handcrafted? I don't think so. To what extent does the use of power tools used or not used define handcrafted? 

My definition is, a significant portion is done by hand, and that the end result is distinguished or notable from those hand worked elements. 

As an example, a router, or Dremel bit will never give the kind of burnish and finish to the wood that a gouge or scraper will. Next time you see a hand gouged and scraped piece of furniture, run your hands across the surface, look at the sheen of the cut, notice the crispness of the edges of the cuts. There is a difference, and it takes along time to learn the woods and direction that it can be worked. It is a partnership between the artist, and the wood. When it is done well, it is extraordinary to behold, and when that magic happens, I care less about what tool was used to prepare the piece, and more about the skill and vision of the artist that put his hand to it. 

I would like to know what you guys think about this.


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## Dean Miller (Jan 29, 2009)

I think most of us woodworkers are tool nuts, betcha most of us have a lot more tools around than just woodworking tools. If something can be made just as well and faster with tools any other way is unnecessary time and sweat. Some people just like the bragging privalige of saying its hand made, and most likely wasn't, if they knew the truth. Tools are the fun part of my hobby and the many ways to apply them. I am always looking for an easier way to do something and invarably tools are the answer, usually powered ones. Dean


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

I found a great video on this topic "Kevin Kelly on how technology evolves"

Here is the link;

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/kevin_kelly_on_how_technology_evolves.html


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

Frankly, when I saw the final product I had a problem thinking of it as "handmade." The intricate nature of the carved lines suggests someone using chisels and devoting many hours to it. But when you put a block of wood on a CNC, push the button, and watch the machine perform the operations, I think that's pushing it beyond "handmade." There is no comparison between the effort to produce that with chisels vs. a CNC is huge.

I think the general public assumes that normal hand-operated machines such as a sander, drill, etc. are used in "hand made" products. But a completely machined produced intricate feature which involves only the index finger being used to push the button cannot be called "handmade."


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

With the technology today it tends to be more of a specialty if something is handmade like they use to be. There are some things that may considered handmade even if normal woodworking tools were used. I believe that for the most part the CNC would tend to make people think it was not hand made. There will probably be a debate on this for a few years and as more woodworkers get cnc type machines then the debate will be over. Is it jellousy or envy because you are someone has and uses a CNC and therefore can produce things faster and possibly nicer then the ones complaining. Who knows, but as long as youd not putting a block of wood in a machine and getting a completely finished 3d sculpture then it is a tool that assist in your craft. 

A example would be when I use to do sign work I hand painted letters on glass and hand cut vinyl for signs. I had freinds that were amazed that I could produce stuff that there plotters couldn't. This caused them to buy newer more expensive plotters an then printers that would print full color signs. I moved to woodworking because I enjoy the art and in signs it got to the point that anyone with or without talent could make signs if they had 5-10 thousand dollars to invest. 

I also use to do seperations for screen printing I would draw each color on a seperat sheet of velum and keep adding more sheets for each color. using a lightbox velum and several black pens I could produce the plates needed to print multi color and even 4 color process by hand. I got paid pretty good but it was the art and challenge to me that mattered. I quit that when everything started going to computerized. 

I learned woodworking with table and radial arm saws, sanders and routers but it is still a art. My wife's grandfather built beautiful furniture and he has work in alot of the historic building since he specialzed in antique reproductions. He used a table saw but he learned on whatever they used before that. He also done allot of the work by hand with hand tools.

For what its worth If I had the money there would be a CNC in my shop to assist with my craft. :thumbsup:


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

As a woodworker, I use whatever gets the job finished in the way I want it finished. 
As a consumer, I don't give a rat's pitooty how the product (and, yes I consider art a product) is manufactured, created or built. If I want it and can afford it, it's mine.
Gene


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## Wood4Fun (Aug 29, 2008)

I like tools, if they are powered, I like them better. I'm a power tool guy. I certainly appreciate the guy that makes a bunch of dovetail drawers by hand, and envy the time he has to spend. ... but I'd rather use a router.
If I make a nice little box with DT's and such, and another guy makes the same exact box without a router, does that make his better? I think not. (router DT's are probably a bad example because it can be argued that you lose some organic feeling to a DT when it is not hand made... but there are ways around that so router DT's don't look "machined")

I like technology, I live in technology every day - the type of technology people think about when one uses the word "technology". You make a very valid point regarding technology, one which I have pointed out to people before. The wheel is technology, ancient spear tips are technology, imagine where we would be if those things were shunned because they were "new" or "different"


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## Shamus (Aug 22, 2008)

Hands down, the one single tool I use on ever project, large or small, detailed or simple is my eyes.

The mind can conceive and tools of every description can be found or new ones built but without a skilled eye you will have some difficulty producing a note-worthy finished product on a regular basis.

Granddad was a cabinet maker. He felt the wood with his hand and could tell you without looking. His minds-eye was that connected. Yet we all have seen some projects that make you wonder why on earth someone spent that much time doing that project, only because it is outside of what we might consider a good finished effort, worthy of putting your name on.

No doubt there are some that fall outside of the norm. I believe that for the vast majority of us woodworkers any tool made in any era can produce excellent results if you first have an eye for what the finished product will look like and are seldom surprised at what you have sitting before you when you’re done. 

Some may have been born with it but most, in my opinion, have acquired the skill over years. Like anything else, it's practice, practice, practice.

Just my ol 2¢


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## twoartistic (Apr 29, 2009)

*Here is a prime example of combining technology with hand crafting*

Hey guys,

I just uploaded this youtube video of my latest carving. all the rough out for the carving was done on my cnc, then I hand carved all the details.

Using a cnc also allowed me to create perfect fitting inlay block for the feature element of the carving. 






Thanks for taking a peek.


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## Gorp (Jul 17, 2009)

Tony B said:


> This concept goes back way before the pyramids.


We all know aliens built the pyramids and I would have liked to have learned from them. Just imagine what there tolls looked like.:smile:

I was also told by a secret government employee that we got CNC technology from a crashed UFO.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

To me, artistry is really in the original vision and final execution of that version. As long as the tools used are controlled by a human and not automated, I don't care how it's cut. Unless someone has a natural handicap like having no hands or is blind, the end result is the same to me whether whittled with a paper clip or standing on their head.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

nice work. 
you are an artist!

amish, craftsmen, carpenters. many people think they all mean the same thing. i ask them - you do know that amish is a religion, right? the average amish shop has an engine (without electricity?, i don't think so) running outside to mechanically power all the tools on the inside. they are no more artists then anyone else. 
technology is _impossible to ignore today_.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I have been using my CNC machine more and more, it has a VERY steep learning curve in the software department for someone whom is CAD/CAM ignorant. I build mine using MDF and hardware, I am currently building a second machine with my first. It certainly isn't as easy as designing a part and hitting enter, I ahve roughly 3-4 pairs of Gantry sides laying around because of "re-tooling" my design. 

Honestly I have used my woodworking skills to build my CNC machine and I hope to then use it to improve on my woodworking skills, if that makes sense. What they don't tell you is, THIS HOBBY OF CNC IS ADDICTING!!!!!!!


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## Itchy Brother (Aug 22, 2008)

Sorry, but all this technical talk is giving me a headache.The less thinking the better.Thats my goal in life.:yes:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Nate1778 said:


> I have been using my CNC machine more and more, it has a VERY steep learning curve in the software department for someone whom is CAD/CAM ignorant. I build mine using MDF and hardware, I am currently building a second machine with my first. It certainly isn't as easy as designing a part and hitting enter, I ahve roughly 3-4 pairs of Gantry sides laying around because of "re-tooling" my design.
> 
> Honestly I have used my woodworking skills to build my CNC machine and I hope to then use it to improve on my woodworking skills, if that makes sense. What they don't tell you is, THIS HOBBY OF CNC IS ADDICTING!!!!!!!


That's a common story with building CNC machines. Build the first then use it to build a better one. I'm starting mine next year hopefully after I get a few things of the honey do list that got really long after my accident.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Itchy Brother said:


> Sorry, but all this technical talk is giving me a headache.The less thinking the better.Thats my goal in life.:yes:


Itchy you sound like a real old timer.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> That's a common story with building CNC machines. Build the first then use it to build a better one. I'm starting mine next year hopefully after I get a few things of the honey do list that got really long after my accident.




Let me know if you need any help, I would even be willing to send you my DXF/CAM files to mine if you can find a shop around you to cut them. Just be warned, it is addicting..........


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## burkhome (Sep 5, 2010)

I have an amish friend that started a furniture/cabinet shop with the projects done with only hand tools. The man is a true artisan. He can do things with hand tools that I can't do with power tools.... He nearly starved to death. He could not charge enough in his market to make ends meet... He now has the latest equipment, does exemplary work and makes a good living... IMO the art comes from inside...The Tools are not important.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

JorgeG said:


> There is a fundamental difference between the use of technology e.i. digital in woodworking as opposed to photography. As I see it, in ww the use of technology is a means to save time, specially on repetitive operations, but the CNC operator still has to have an understanding of wood, wood movement, proper joints, etc. Or as in the case of the carving you can get a rough outline, but the detailed work still requires ww skill.
> 
> This is not the case in photography, IMO digital photography requires no knowledge of photography, only knowledge in photoshop, which to me is merely computer programming.
> 
> I prefer hand tools and use them as much as I can, but I see nothing wrong with the use of technology for the purpose of saving time. IMO no CNC machine will replace the work being done in studio furniture.


Not to harp on this but people were using photoshop and "touch up" tools long before digital cameras ever came around. The principle is the same, no matter what technology you're talking about. In photography you can't get a high quality picture without understanding at least a little bit about lighting, color, and composition. Whether you're using a digital camera or an analog camera. Photoshop has nothing to do with digital photography unless you choose to post process, which is the same thing as post processing in a dark room except it "to save time, especially on repetitive operations".

Technology is a tool and should be used as such. It will never replace true artistry because that artistry is derived from the creative vision of the artist, not the tools which the artist uses.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

JorgeG said:


> As a former large format photographer I have to disagree with you. Touch up operations (specially if they were done on the negaitve) required a lot of skill and artistry. There were no "filters" to apply. You mention knowing something about light, color (or contrast if you were doing black and white) and composition, with photoshop this no longer applies, and while you could do the same operations in the darkroom they were extremely difficult.
> 
> I don't know how current you are in digital photography, but a sign of the times is that cameras are no longer the field of camera makers, but of electronics. Heck there are cameras out there that wont take the picture unless the subjects is smiling....


JorgeG, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. As for filters in Photoshop, I admit I hadn't thought of that since I've never used one. Anything I use Photoshop or similar products for is all done "manually" because I don't like the filters... they're too "perfect". 

I think you will also find that the optics of digital cameras (at least DSLRs and better quality Point and Shoots) are still manufactured by real optics/camera companies, not by the electronics companies. Sure, the sensors are made by electronics companies, but once again, we're talking about tools rather than the final product.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

frankp said:


> Not to harp on this but people were using photoshop and "touch up" tools long before digital cameras ever came around. The principle is the same, no matter what technology you're talking about. In photography you can't get a high quality picture without understanding at least a little bit about lighting, color, and composition. Whether you're using a digital camera or an analog camera. Photoshop has nothing to do with digital photography unless you choose to post process, which is the same thing as post processing in a dark room except it "to save time, especially on repetitive operations".
> 
> Technology is a tool and should be used as such. It will never replace true artistry because that artistry is derived from the creative vision of the artist, not the tools which the artist uses.



Now here is the perfect example of how an artist with no talent can use tools to digitally "touch up" a photo. I needed no darkroom for this, and it shows.:laughing::laughing:
Click if you must.












 









.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

JorgeG said:


> Yes we will have to agree to disagree. If you wish to you can check my work at http://meseon.net/portfolio/artist/jorge1958?p=2&o=1 all of these were made from 8x10 negatives, and are contact prints, no retouching etc. Wether you like the work or not I think you will see I put some thought into making them, not like the current crop of photographers that shoot 1 million pics and fix it on photoshop.
> 
> PS. Warning, some nudity displayed.


Those are quite interesting. The first two, of the doorway and the cross seem more like semi-surreal drawings than photos. A bit hard on my eye, personally, because I find it hard to focus properly on any of the parts, but they are still good work. I very much like the others as well since they are a little easier to focus on. (And who can complain about tasteful nudity in pictures, really?)


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> Now here is the perfect example of how an artist with no talent can use tools to digitally "touch up" a photo. I needed no darkroom for this, and it shows.:laughing::laughing:
> Click if you must.
> 
> 
> ...


Cabinetman, I somehow missed your "post-processing" of my photo. I nearly choked to death when I saw it today. Now, that's funny. I guess I should thank whomever resurrected this thread.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Impressive work, compliments.

I use whatever affordable solution is available towards completing my project in the shortest time.

Custom one of a kind pieces take time, no matter how many toys we have. I have grown through work from the bench, through college and into the board room. Unfortunately the value of my professional time is ten folds more dollars worth than my manual labor, which is why I do not build for others, unless it is a big favor. I use to do a lot of commision work a long long time ago, but today I build purely for the creative pleasure it provides and when I run out of space, a piece is donated to a family member, so a new one can take its place.

Sadly, furniture in the US has migrated towards exporting lumber to Asia and importing the furniture back here. With the debt situation if our currency goes South, perhaps that changes, who knows. But for now, I know and have personally seen artisans somewhere in Asia who have all the skills I have, they build custom pieces prior to upscale for commercial mass production probably better than I can and they do it for less than $1 per hour wages. Unfortuntaly true high end custom pieces make up a very small market nich and there are several custom builders. Most people do not appreciate the things we build and they do not see or understand the difference between high end and what is sold at the furniture store down the street.

In short, I believe hand tool skills are very important and it is important to maintain those skills, but using nice machinery to speed up the process, especially where accuracy is important is a lot more fun and gives one the available time to do a lot more.

These days I design everything I build in 3D software (not Sketchup), simply because I make all my mistakes on the computer instead of the shop. I can rebuild a piece 10 times over on the computer until it looks right and fits perfectly, so when I end up in the shop, it is right the first time and it cuts my time considerably.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

frankp said:


> Cabinetman, I somehow missed your "post-processing" of my photo. I nearly choked to death when I saw it today. Now, that's funny. I guess I should thank whomever resurrected this thread.


I thought you were PO'd since you didn't respond. Actually, the goatee and mustash gives you that James Bondish look.:laughing:











 







.


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> I thought you were PO'd since you didn't respond.
> Actually, the goatee and mustash gives you that James Bondish look.:laughing:
> 
> 
> ...



*Hey Cabinetman - Capt. Marvel!* 

*Without Veterans like you, we would be in a world of HURT!*

*Thank you for everything you have done to keep us FREE and Safe!*

*Take care, my friend & Hero!*


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

:laughing::laughing:


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

Two,

Your work is art. Need not say more.

Bret


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