# My first project



## judgment (May 22, 2014)

Okay, so my first ever wood working project is going to be this:










Here is an underside Sketchup drawing showing much of the construction detail:










I picked this project for several reasons. 

1.) Those are my marching orders 

2.) It seems relatively simple; the tools required are minimal and all the joinery can be done with pocket-holes.

3.) Beer goes in the middle. 


What do you guys think? Is this above my pay grade? 

Also, from my reading it seems there is a bit of controversy over whether things built with a Kreg jig can really be classified as wood working but I thought this would be nice entry point into the hobby. thoughts?

If all goes well with this project, I am planning on building this kitchen island table out of reclaimed wormy Chesnut next. There is a nice reclaimed lumber place within driving distance from my house and I am planning a trip over there to gawk at cool stuff soon. I intend to explore more traditional joinery methods before embarking on this adventure:










thoughts? suggestions? dire warnings? All comments welcome!

All of the pictures in this thread are intended for public consumption and are not my photos. The picnic table photos came from this blog and the Kitchen island photo came from this one. 


I do not believe I am violating either the rules of this site or of the owners of the photos by posting them here with a link to the source, but if any admins want to correct me feel free.

thanks,


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## Paarker (Mar 20, 2013)

Kreg jigs have there places and if you ask me if your using wood it's wood working. Just like in anything people are going to have there own opinions it is up to you to decide if it's woodworking or not.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

IMHO pocket hole screws are not the correct joinery for a table like this.You will be highly disappointed when,after all of your hard work,it falls on the floor.
Mortise and tennon joints take very few tools and are much better for a table.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

mako1 said:


> IMHO pocket hole screws are not the correct joinery for a table like this.You will be highly disappointed when,after all of your hard work,it falls on the floor.
> Mortise and tennon joints take very few tools and are much better for a table.



Falls on the floor? Please explain further why you dislike pocket hole screws for this application. Please keep in mind I know almost nothing. Thanks,


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

pocket screws are structuraly sound for something like face frames being secured to a cabinet or even some light cabinet doors that will see little use .Even boxes but are not structurally sound for a table such as a dining table.They won't hold a leg in place even with a good apron on the table for long.A mortise and tennon joint is a lot better choice and will last for 100's of years.Can be done with a drill,hand saw and chisel if that is all you have.
Mortise and tennons are also completely hidden.You see no joints or screws which ads to the overall look of the piece.


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## walnutavenue (Nov 9, 2011)

Don't let people talk you out of pocket screws. Sure they're weak compared to other joints, but they work and they have their place. I bought the kreg jig and used it like mad for about a year, then I graduated to doweling. I rarely use pocket joints now, but it's still a handy method from time to time. I don't regret the time or money spent. And none of the things I built with pocket screws have fallen apart. 

I'm a firm believer that you have to experience things to learn. If you take the advice to not use pocket screws, or water based finish, or whatever thing people talk you out of, you'll never really know/understand why you're not using it. If you use pocket screws and the weight of ice and beer breaks your table, you will learn more than lines of text could ever teach. 

Go do what makes you happy. Success follows happiness.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Ok feel I should defend pocket screw joinery from the haters ... I own a custom cabinet shop .. About 35 years this year and have used the pocket hole system since it came along ... Never once have I had a failure ... Have used them on every type of furniture made ... Never had a failure ... Have made tables for my home using them ... Still have all of them in service ...some 10 years old ... My daughter and friends danced on one of the coffee tables while having a graduation party at our house ... Can send pics of high heal marks ... Table still as sturdy as the day I made it .... 
I am not knocking other means of joining wood ... Why is every other joint better than pocket screws ?????
I would test my pocket screw joints up against anybody's tongue and groove under normal living conditions any day !!!!
Just my rant 
Leave the poor misguided pocket screw users alone


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

You use other joinery methods though... right?


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## maverikck2002 (Jun 27, 2013)

I have used pocket hole joinery for anything from dressers to benches. Still all holding fine. I did use glue also.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mako1 said:


> IMHO pocket hole screws are not the correct joinery for a table like this.You will be highly disappointed when,after all of your hard work,it falls on the floor.
> Mortise and tennon joints take very few tools and are much better for a table.


Advance to the head of the class. I believe you are correct. Even though M and T joints look difficult they are in fact very forgiving.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mako1 said:


> pocket screws are structuraly sound for something like face frames being secured to a cabinet or even some light cabinet doors that will see little use .Even boxes but are not structurally sound for a table such as a dining table.They won't hold a leg in place even with a good apron on the table for long.A mortise and tennon joint is a lot better choice and will last for 100's of years.Can be done with a drill,hand saw and chisel if that is all you have.
> Mortise and tennons are also completely hidden.You see no joints or screws which ads to the overall look of the piece.


Great point. I would also add. If you use the pocket screws for flat surfaces they are a good source for clamp pressure. With glue they are a temporary means of clamping wood together. Just not for the apron and legs.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> Ok feel I should defend pocket screw joinery from the haters ... I own a custom cabinet shop .. About 35 years this year and have used the pocket hole system since it came along ... Never once have I had a failure ... Have used them on every type of furniture made ... Never had a failure ... Have made tables for my home using them ... Still have all of them in service ...some 10 years old ... My daughter and friends danced on one of the coffee tables while having a graduation party at our house ... Can send pics of high heal marks ... Table still as sturdy as the day I made it ....
> I am not knocking other means of joining wood ... Why is every other joint better than pocket screws ?????
> I would test my pocket screw joints up against anybody's tongue and groove under normal living conditions any day !!!!
> Just my rant
> Leave the poor misguided pocket screw users alone


Four things we just need to not post here......

Fe$tool
Sawstop
Biscuits 
Kreg Pocket holes.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Four things we just need to not post here......
> 
> Fe$tool
> Sawstop
> ...



Thanks for the controversy cheat-sheet. . Now I just have to go do research and figure out what all that means.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

judgment said:


> Thanks for the controversy cheat-sheet. . Now I just have to go do research and figure out what all that means.


Oh hang around this crowd and you'll find out fast. So buy some tools and get to know us.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Great point. I would also add. If you use the pocket screws for flat surfaces they are a good source for clamp pressure. With glue they are a temporary means of clamping wood together. Just not for the apron and legs. Al Nails only hold themselves.


I have the aprons and all legs of my kitchen table and coffee tables joined with only pocket screws can you give me a reason based on fact why they will not work ? 
It's a wonder how any thing I build ever makes it to the customers home . 
Please don't tell them I build substandard products ...

If nails only hold themselves what's holding all these houses together?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> I have the aprons and all legs of my kitchen table and coffee tables joined with only pocket screws can you give me a reason based on fact why they will not work ?
> It's a wonder how any thing I build ever makes it to the customers home .
> Please don't tell them I build substandard products ...
> 
> If nails only hold themselves what's holding all these houses together?


Wen Dell

Your experience is anecdotal. We build to last or its just better to buy it at Wally world. Are you experienced with furniture lasting ten years? How about 20 or 50? We have antiques in this world because nobody used pocket screws. The glue is going to hold for a few years. The screw will erode on its own will unless it's never exposed to oxygen. Are they brass? Even a stainless steel screw will fail in time all by itself. 

The beating you are receiving over the pocket screws comes from learned woodworkers that have seen fads in the craft come and go. We are seeing a decline in the use of biscuit jointers and the Fe$tool domino will soon follow. They don't advance the craft and only serve to delay the path of tried and true joinery. Sure many of us are guilty of the same but the older I get the more I hold on to the things I learned which all started with my shop teacher yelling across the shop to all of us, "nails only hold themselves" !!!

In closing I would like to also bring you to the understanding that here in America a house is only built to last 40 years. In Europe and other places 400 years. So nails only hold themselves.

Al B Thayer

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

People like you should go back to those great old days then ... No computer for stupid comments ... Ride your horse to work ...throw away that smart phone and pick up your paper and pencil..

You build antiques 
I'll build products I can sell 
I'm 58 ... Have furniture I built when I was in wood shop in high school 
At my age I don't care if my wood work last for another 40 years of not ... As long as it's been paid for today ...

I'm not bashing how all you real wood workers make things 
I just think if you tell a new woodworker on here that if he uses a proven way to join wood it's going to fail without proof is just pushing your idea if the correct way to join wood .. 
Can all you real wood workers like you see into the future too..,

A lot of the old mansions I visit as I travel are old and still built with nails ... 

Is this forum only for antique furniture makers ?


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

One of these days maybe I can become a learned wood worker .... I've sure been practicing along time


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> One of these days maybe I can become a learned wood worker .... I've sure been practicing along time


Then lose the Kreg.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> People like you should go back to those great old days then ... No computer for stupid comments ... Ride your horse to work ...throw away that smart phone and pick up your paper and pencil..
> 
> You build antiques
> I'll build products I can sell
> ...


Actually they aren't built with nails. Someone took the time to figure out how to place the structure in such a way that made it last. That just isn't going to happen with construction as it is these days.

Don't get a burr up your butt, you asked. I told you. I doubt will be seeing your furniture in a refinishing shop.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

Thanks everyone. I did want to get a little cross-talk going about the kreg jig thing to help me understand what I've already read, but does anyone have any other thoughts about my first project idea? Does anyone think I'm getting in over my head?


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## j10c3y25 (Jan 8, 2014)

All this arguing over the best joinery method and lasting hundreds of years...he's building a back yard beer table. Dude, just put it together with whatever you want. I understand TOO well the urge to research every aspect of a project before undertaking it, but you won't get a feel for it until you start building it. As things start going together you will see problems, and find fixes, or make "strategic design changes." Just pick a method and try it, and then you'll know if you like it or not. If it breaks then a couple of guys will say I told you so and you can build a better one, its not like its the only thing you'll ever make right?


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## Pauley (Jan 21, 2012)

All woodworkers have there own way of making things. One mans joinery is, many times, shunned by another mans joinery. I have the 99 dollars Kreg jig and have used it on some small things, such as a stretcher on a hall table. It's been maybe 8 months and it's still strong. The best way to see how the kreg's will hold on structural things, well time will tell if it's good or bad. Myself, I can't afford a lot of tools for my shop, such as a jointer planer. So I use a 160 year old plane to plane the edges of the boards for jointing. My brother-in-law, who is also a woodworker, says you can't do that cause you will never hold it flat on the edge of the boards. So far, it's worked for me. I'm not a professional woodworker, not by any means. However, I have been doing it for, off and on...mostly on, for about 30 years. My number one rule is to never tell anyone there doing it wrong....cause maybe I'm not planing the boards for jointing correctly, but it does work....


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Lose your attitude mr know it all
I doubt I'll ever see your work on a finishing shop either ... 
As you told me that my screws some day will rot away ... Guess your a metal wizard too .. I would like for you in all your wisdom to tell me when that's going to happen ?? You have me all worried about that so I took some door hinge screws out of a couple of antiques I own and see no decay at all... 
Guess your not as smart as you claim to be ...

I'm not the person on here telling people how my way is the only way ( God complex ) 

And I really don't care ... I'll meet up with you say in a hundred years or so and we can compare our work then ... If mine has not weathered the years and become antiques that need to be refinished then at that time I'll change to the traditional method ....
See ya in 2113 .... Until the it's pocket screws and glue for me !!!!!
Have a wonderful day


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

judgment said:


> Thanks everyone. I did want to get a little cross-talk going about the kreg jig thing to help me understand what I've already read, but does anyone have any other thoughts about my first project idea? Does anyone think I'm getting in over my head?


It's a great first project. Go with glue and Kreg screws. The screws can work like clamps when you glue it up.

Perfect first project.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> Lose your attitude mr know it all
> I doubt I'll ever see your work on a finishing shop either ...
> As you told me that my screws some day will rot away ... Guess your a metal wizard too .. I would like for you in all your wisdom to tell me when that's going to happen ?? You have me all worried about that so I took some door hinge screws out of a couple of antiques I own and see no decay at all...
> Guess your not as smart as you claim to be ...
> ...


It's not the screws the rot away. It's both the wood moisture,oxygen and the screws coupled with force and movement. But you knew that. 

Remember, you asked. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> It's a great first project. Go with glue and Kreg screws. The screws can work like clamps when you glue it up.
> 
> Perfect first project.
> 
> ...



I love all the many layers of meaning in this thread.... I think you are right, Al, one way or the other..... Perfect first project...... 


...On my dang phone


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I agree with Al. This is a good project, go with glue and pocket screws. If you're working with wood, you're woodworking. I'd argue it might not be FINE woodworking, but it's still woodworking. Call it "pretty good woodworking." Here are a couple of things to keep in mind, though:

1) You're building an outdoor table, and planning to hold it together with screws. Sooner or later, either the screws will rust or the wood around them will give. Don't worry about it, but don't be surprised when it happens. It could be five or ten years before things start to get bad. If you have the option, use stainless steel screws. They'll last longer. By the time it finally does give out, you'll be comfortable building the next one with mortise and tenon joints, and you can decide whether you want to build it that way then.

2) You've got a bunch of joints on the tabletop where you have grain changing direction. Those are places where you're going to see the results of wood expanding and contracting, eventually. I'd recommend attaching each board running the length of the table to the cross-ways boards separately, and leaving a small -- 1/16" or less -- gap between them. The usual gap in building a deck is bigger, but it's the same idea. This is an outdoor table and it's going to get rained on... leave space for the water to drain and the wood to move.

3) You're going to have a bunch of boards in the middle supported only at their ends. That might be fine, but it might not. If you can put in some braces underneath them, I'd recommend it. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just something to add a little bit of support.

4) It's not going to be perfect. Wood is a living material, and it moves, chips, tears out, splits, and basically does everything it possibly can to ruin your hard work. Don't worry about it. A big part of woodworking is figuring out how to deal with those problems, and a table like this is a good place to start.

5) Don't neglect the finish. Outdoor furniture needs a good finish, and hopefully someone else here can give you good recommendations as to what to use, because I can't.


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## judgment (May 22, 2014)

amckenzie4 said:


> I agree with Al. This is a good project, go with glue and pocket screws. If you're working with wood, you're woodworking. I'd argue it might not be FINE woodworking, but it's still woodworking. Call it "pretty good woodworking." Here are a couple of things to keep in mind, though:
> 
> 1) You're building an outdoor table, and planning to hold it together with screws. Sooner or later, either the screws will rust or the wood around them will give. Don't worry about it, but don't be surprised when it happens. It could be five or ten years before things start to get bad. If you have the option, use stainless steel screws. They'll last longer. By the time it finally does give out, you'll be comfortable building the next one with mortise and tenon joints, and you can decide whether you want to build it that way then.
> 
> ...



Thanks. This gives me a lot to think about. I just started reading "The Technique of Furniture Making" - something I was told is close to a woodworker's bible - and it is really amazing how much there is to learn about trees and wood before it ever mentions picking up the first tool. Even though I am years away from being able to go into the woods and come out with a log (if ever) I can see how that information makes a good foundation. It's also incredible how much you can take for granted when you see things made out of wood all the time, but don't know how they got there.

Also I wouldn't mind some good advice on an outdoor finish. Oh, and the next things I'm gonna buy are tools for making M&T joints by hand so I can start practicing. I'm very impressed with those folks who can build things almost completely by hand just wood and glue. Something to aspire to I guess...


...On my dang phone


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> I agree with Al. This is a good project, go with glue and pocket screws. If you're working with wood, you're woodworking. I'd argue it might not be FINE woodworking, but it's still woodworking. Call it "pretty good woodworking." Here are a couple of things to keep in mind, though:
> 
> 1) You're building an outdoor table, and planning to hold it together with screws. Sooner or later, either the screws will rust or the wood around them will give. Don't worry about it, but don't be surprised when it happens. It could be five or ten years before things start to get bad. If you have the option, use stainless steel screws. They'll last longer. By the time it finally does give out, you'll be comfortable building the next one with mortise and tenon joints, and you can decide whether you want to build it that way then.
> 
> ...


Good post. Very encouraging. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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