# Dining Table Design Question



## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Hello,

I have some questions about a dining table I am building. I can attach a sketch of the design later... for now, descriptions.

The top of the table will be approximately 40"x72", made of red oak 1"x6"x6' boards glued together. The skirt/apron(?) will also be 1" oak, extending perhaps 4 inches from the bottom of the table, a few inches in from the table edge. The legs will be plain, 3" or 4" square (will either glue-up or box). 

I plan on attaching the legs in this fashion: http://img.diynetwork.com/DIY/2009/06/08/carterCAN-2451540-HCCAN-205_table2_lg.jpg 

Questions:

1. Do I need additional leg support? What type? I wouldn't want any visible supports, because I am going for a somewhat 'modern' look. 

2. How many braces do I need to add under the table top, for both structural strength and to prevent deflection? I was thinking maybe four 1"x4"x34.5" boards, placed on edge, perpendicular to the long sides of the table, spaced evenly apart. 

3. Can I use cheaper lumber for the internal bracing (IE, pine 2x4's), or does mixing wood types create issues with warping, etc? 

Thanks!


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## Chancewoodchuck (Sep 27, 2011)

*Leg support*

I would think that a couple of braces as you descibed would be fine.
The most important part is using Plenty of glue. And I don't believe there to be any prob. using a cheaper wood for your braces.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Sketch...?

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Ah, glue, I knew I needed it for the top, I forgot about using it for the rest of the construction! I suppose I should use glue pretty much any time I'm joining two pieces of wood. But... would I even use it between the apron/skirt and the tabletop? Or between the "internal bracing" and the tabletop? 

Firemedic, I am working on a rough sketch, I can post at home later. 

Thanks all!


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> Ah, glue, I knew I needed it for the top, I forgot about using it for the rest of the construction! I suppose I should use glue pretty much any time I'm joining two pieces of wood. But... would I even use it between the apron/skirt and the tabletop? Or between the "internal bracing" and the tabletop?
> 
> Firemedic, I am working on a rough sketch, I can post at home later.
> 
> Thanks all!


Edge glue the top:yes: but not the apron to the top :no: the top should be free floating. There are several ways to do this but I'm holding off on specific advise until I see what style and design your looking at.

As for the legs, your intended bolts through corner braces is a very good way to build a large table. It allows for easy removal (knock-down) of them and a good way to tighten lose legs down the road...

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## snav (Jan 24, 2010)

Per the leg attachment: think to the future and what to do if/when the wood bracing or screws strip out.


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi Snav,

Is there any easy way to fix if the screws do strip in the future? 

Or are you suggesting I should think of another way of attachment? 

Thanks


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Here are some rough sketches, not sure if this helps (or if the attachments will work!) I'm also sure I got some math wrong, but I'll be double checking it all... 

Thanks


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

PS - I was thinking of attaching the tabletop to the skirt/apron with many simple metal L-type brackets and short screws. Thoughts? 

Thanks


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

This corner brace should be mortised into the apron to support large legs like that. Also be sure to allow for a bit of space between the corner brace and leg. The idea is to draw the leg tightly into the apron boards... I generally leave about 1/4" gap but it could be more or less.

As for stripping bolts, the chances of that happening are slim if you keep them snugged up. If they do strip it's as simple as changing them.

For the metal brackets there is a special designed bracket for this called a Z-clip. It allows for wood movement. Also you would only attach the top along the outer edges (the apron) also because of wood movement.

The sketch looks great, should be a really nice table!

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/rustic-carved-recycled-table-16604/

This is the best apron/leg joinery I've ever seen.


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks medic and brink!

Here's the deal - I'm a real rookie to woodwork. I had to Google "mortise" to figure out exactly what you were suggesting :laughing: It seems like it might be a little beyond my current skillset, and require gear not currently in my toolbox. 

So, the question is, do I need to 1. Learn how to do this and purchase the tools to do it, or 2. Is there some other way to _sort-of-mortise_/reinforce the corner brace to the apron? The setup in brink's link also looks like it might require a router? 

And, would I need a router for the Z-Clips anyways, to create the "channel" in the apron for the clip to sit in? 

Oh - one more thing - I'm contemplating making the apron a little shorter (3 inches?) to give a little more leg room. Is this allowable, or will it hurt leg stability? 

Thanks again!


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

Metal corner braces are available through amazon, woodcraft, rockler, etc.

The aprons need to fit to the legs mechanically, such as a mortis and tenon. The braces draw them tight. Dowels could be used, but hard to align the holes and keep them straight. Screwing the aprons to the leg would work, but I don't like the idea.

I guess my question is what tools do you have, and we could go from there.


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## Chancewoodchuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Use a set of pocket holes..


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

I would like to do it "the right way," (or at least as 'right' as possible), so I'm open to getting a router (Craigslist!). Is it very difficult to make a simple mortise and tenon joint with a router? Is that all I would need? 

In case it helps, I have:

Circular saw
Cordless drill
"oscillating tool"
jig saw
miter/chop saw 
Angle grinder
assorted hand tools...
I will update if I remember anything else...

Thanks!


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> I would like to do it "the right way," (or at least as 'right' as possible), so I'm open to getting a router (Craigslist!). Is it very difficult to make a simple mortise and tenon joint with a router? Is that all I would need?
> 
> In case it helps, I have:
> 
> ...


Mofo, do ya have any chisels and or hand saws?

All of the jointery could be done pretty easily with a decent hand saw, a drill and chisel to clean up the cuts.

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't have chisels/hand saws but I'm pretty good at hunting stuff down on Craigslist or at thrift stores for cheap! (I also have a Sears gift card that's been gathering dust in my wallet.) 

I was actually going to ask about doing it "by hand" because I saw this video:





Is this how you would suggest I do it (except use a drill to do most of the chiseling work?)

Thanks! 

Matt


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> Is this how you would suggest I do it (except use a drill to do most of the chiseling work?)


Yep :smile: the corner brace tenons would be a bit different though.

I'm getting over the flu right now but when I get back to the shop on tue I'll take a couple pictures to show you what I mean... If you haven't already built your table by then!

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks! Don't worry, I won't be anywhere near finished by Tuesday. Still testing out the steps of my finish today. And maybe I'll go buy the lumber so it can sit for a week in the room, and track down some chisels and a nice handsaw...


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> I would like to do it "the right way," (or at least as 'right' as possible), so I'm open to getting a router (Craigslist!). Is it very difficult to make a simple mortise and tenon joint with a router? Is that all I would need?
> 
> In case it helps, I have:
> 
> ...


The circ saw will do well to cut tenons. It should have a depth stop. Use a clamp on guide to set the cut for the shoulder. A series of cuts can be made, then cleaned up with a chisel.

The drill is good for cleaning out most of the waste from a mortise. Then use a chisel to square the mortise. 

Chisels are everything for this project. 

A router, especially a plunge router can cut mortises and tenons.


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## pmacmewo (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree with Brink. Anything worth doin is worth doing right. Discovering the perfect method to any woodworking project is satisfaction in its own. Wether its whittling a toothpic or a custom build.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

pmacmewo said:


> I agree with Brink. Anything worth doin is worth doing right. Discovering the perfect method to any woodworking project is satisfaction in its own. Wether its whittling a toothpic or a custom build.


*Sorry, the page you were looking for could not be found *

Showing related results for: http://http//www.acmewoodworking.com/discover_perfect_method_woo...


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks all. The handsaw/chisel/drill method seems like something I can handle. Kinda' looking forward to trying it out...

One other thing I think I forgot to mention - since I am using red oak for the table, the legs won't be solid 4x4's (nobody seems to think those are a good choice). 

I will probably make some sort of glue-up construction from multiple boards - does this change any of the leg attachment suggestions? 

Thanks


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

I prefer a lamination (LAM) for a leg this size. I feel there will be less chance of twisting, cracking and such. 

The apron attachment would stay the same.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Brink said:


> I prefer a lamination (LAM) for a leg this size. I feel there will be less chance of twisting, cracking and such.
> 
> The apron attachment would stay the same.


I agree. What that means, Mofo, is several boards glued together...

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Got it, LAM legs (ha). 

Another question came up today:

I happened to be at the local Home Depot and checked out their selection of red oak. Almost every single board was terribly warped. I'm assuming these are unusable for a tabletop...

I may have a source or two to get some better lumber from, but this got me thinking – regardless of where I get the boards from, once I bring them home, are they likely to warp anyways? I will be working on the table in my (mostly) unheated garage, and the table will eventually live in our dining room. 

Anything I can do to keep the lumber from warping pre-glue-up, as well as post-finish? 

And, any tips for finding quality (yet good-priced) oak lumber in the Seattle area? 

Thanks


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> Thanks! Don't worry, I won't be anywhere near finished by Tuesday. Still testing out the steps of my finish today. And maybe I'll go buy the lumber so it can sit for a week in the room, and track down some chisels and a nice handsaw...


Was locking up and remembered I promised you something. Turned the lights back on and knocked it out quickly. 

This is what the corner brace mortise & tenon would look like and the steps of cutting it by hand. 

It took me longer to upload the pics and type this than to actually cut the pieces...

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> Got it, LAM legs (ha).
> 
> Another question came up today:
> 
> ...


If they're warped, don't buy them. If the wood is dry, it should be mostly stable. Bring it to your shop, and allow the wood to acclimate. My shop will be in the 50's during the winter, I've had very few problems with wood movement. 

Problems occur when you go from cold/dry to warm/humid, quickly. Wood movement, post-finish...what ever finish you use, finish ALL sides, top, bottom, etc. If 5 coats of whatever goes on the top, that many should be on the bottom.

Lumber in Seattle, can't help you there, it's not my end of the world.


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Great, thanks again everyone. I would buy you a virtual six-pack as a thank-you... if that existed.

Side note: I was also planning on building a bench (or two) to go with the table, constructed in a similar way. Now I'm realizing I should probably build the bench_ first_. It makes sense to start with something smaller, yet similar, so I can run into any problems on a small scale (and smaller cost) first. 

I'll let you know how it goes!

Thanks again.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*nice work tom aka firemedic*

Nice "handi-work" tom ..... me I'm a bandsaw guy. That's how I would make that joint, but I donno if the OP has a bandsaw?
Just throwin' out an *alternate* method....cut, cut, nibble, nibble, cut, cut, cut if you can follow my process. :laughing:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Nice "handi-work" tom ..... me I'm a bandsaw guy. That's how I would make that joint, but I donno if the OP has a bandsaw?
> Just throwin' out an alternate method....cut, cut, nibble, nibble, cut, cut, cut if you can follow my process. :laughing:


I'd use the TS... But he was looking to do it with hand tools... :smile:

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Jeffk (Oct 13, 2011)

A few quick thoughts. This looks a very nice project, but if it's your first table there a couple of pointers. First, whatever you do, don't glue the aprons to the table top. With seasonal changes in humidity, the movement of the top won't match the movement of the aprons, esp. in the cross grain direction. If you glue the aprons to the cross grain top you'll be guaranteed a joint failure somewhere. Learned this one the hard way years ago, very ugly crack that completely ruined the table top. Rockler sells various kinds of table top fasteners just for this purpose.

You'll almost certainly have to glue up those 4" legs. You may find turning blocks that dimension, but they're heavy and can get spendy. The trick is keep the pieces aligned as you glue up the legs. The traditional method is to cut a locking mitre which puts the glue joint in the corner. I've used simple edge joinery aligned with dowels. You'd need a good dowel jig for this, but that's a tool you could use for edge joining in your table top, too.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Jeffk said:


> A few quick thoughts. This looks a very nice project, but if it's your first table there a couple of pointers. First, whatever you do, don't glue the aprons to the table top. With seasonal changes in humidity, the movement of the top won't match the movement of the aprons, esp. in the cross grain direction. If you glue the aprons to the cross grain top you'll be guaranteed a joint failure somewhere. Learned this one the hard way years ago, very ugly crack that completely ruined the table top. Rockler sells various kinds of table top fasteners just for this purpose.
> 
> You'll almost certainly have to glue up those 4" legs. You may find turning blocks that dimension, but they're heavy and can get spendy. The trick is keep the pieces aligned as you glue up the legs. The traditional method is to cut a locking mitre which puts the glue joint in the corner. I've used simple edge joinery aligned with dowels. You'd need a good dowel jig for this, but that's a tool you could use for edge joining in your table top, too.


Locking mitre bits are a bigger pain in the a$$ than worth especially to a noob... and I'm still trying to figure out they apply to a laminated leg.

Anywho...

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Jeffk (Oct 13, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Locking mitre bits are a bigger pain in the a$$ than worth especially to a noob... and I'm still trying to figure out they apply to a laminated leg.
> 
> Anywho...
> 
> ~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...


Exactly. What I was suggesting is to, say, cut four 3 1/4 wide boards to length. Assuming they're are 3/4 thick, they'll assemble into 4" wide leg with one glue joint on each face. Or you could cut other widths to keep one or two faces free of glue joints.

The trick is to align and hold the boards in place for the glue up. I've had good luck using dowels for this, but that requires a dowel jig. I suppose you could use pocket holes for a couple of the sides, then just a clamp the last piece you slide in place.

I agree -- locking mitres are a pain in the tush.


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## wannia (Oct 22, 2011)

Hi...........
Very nice sharing dear.
I also have some pics of dinning table,But i have no idea how i up load pics.Any one tell me how i upload pics?
Please share as soon as possible.
Thanks.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

wannia said:


> Hi...........
> Very nice sharing dear.
> I also have some pics of dinning table,But i have no idea how i up load pics.Any one tell me how i upload pics?
> Please share as soon as possible.
> Thanks.


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f16/how-post-photos-1120/












 







.


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

I know, it's been awhile. I haven't been able to make much progress on my table, but I did find and purchase my wood (beautiful!) so I will be starting very soon.

I have one new question, too. 

In my plans (see earlier post) I had drawn-in some supports that would run perpendicular to the long sides of the apron, every foot or two, theoretically giving extra support to the apron structure and to the tabletop. 

If these supports are needed (which I assume they are) – how would you suggest I attach them? I know some sort of mortise/tenon joint might be ideal (?) but is there an easier way, like some sort of joist-hanger-type hardware, along with glue? 

Thanks!


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

mofo83 said:


> I know, it's been awhile. I haven't been able to make much progress on my table, but I did find and purchase my wood (beautiful!) so I will be starting very soon.
> 
> I have one new question, too.
> 
> ...


A dovetail would be the best method, dowels would be the cheesiest. There are other methods too.

I still haven't really gotten a handle on what your ability/skill level/ambitions are when it come to recommending how to connect the stretchers.

I went back and looked at the sketch. I'd say you can knock that down to only two stretchers (piece that crosses apron to apron) three at the most. Your using stable OAK and it's no going to have tremendous forces acting downward on it.

I also would only put the Z clips on the end aprons and stretchers... Sufficient and less worry of expansion problems (yes despite them being Z clips). Also don't forget you can put a line of counter sunk screws down the center. One in each end apron and stretcher. In fact i recomend it. The center can be a ridgid attachment because the movement will be side to side from the center point of the panel.

So, do you think you can cut a dovetail tenon by hand as shown below for the stretchers? It's not the same application but the same joint I'm referring to.

~tom. ...GEAUX TIGERS!... ...GEAUX SAINTS!......


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## mofo83 (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks again for the info. I'll keep your z-clip recommendations in mind. 

I'm not at all confident I could hand-cut those dovetails, haha! I can try but it might be beyond what I'm able to do (or willing to practice) right now, at least. I can mess around with it and see how it goes... 

Speaking of z-clips... (don't you like how every answer brings up a new question?):

I know I need to create a channel (or individual slots) in the apron, for the clips to set in. I think this would normally be done with a router, or I have seen people online using a biscuit joiner. Can I just use a circular saw, set to cut not very deep? 

Thanks again.

PS - for future reference when giving suggestions: my "woodworking" experience has been limited to making shelves and workbenches out of 2x4's and plywood. Hence the very straightforward construction of my table! I'm pretty much learning as I go. But I think I'll do okay...


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes, you can use a circ saw to cut the dado for Z clips. Clamp a block to the bottom to act as a fence and be sure to keep all your digits safely away from the blade!

~tom. ...GEAUX TIGERS!... ...GEAUX SAINTS!......


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