# Having issues with old Delta Shaper Table



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Hey guys, I am having problems with my old (vintage as some might say) Delta Shaper Table. It turns on, but, once I feed in a board it bogs down and the cutter stops spinning like it doesn't have enough horse power to do the cut, even with Poplar or Pine. It worked great for many years, and the motor was rebuilt 6 months ago, and I installed a new switch. I need this machine up and running as soon as possible. Any ideas on what might be the problem? I am unsure of the exact model for this as the name badge and emblems have been gone since before I got it. Any suggestions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would first check the belts. Perhaps they are loose or worn out. The motor could still be bad. Perhaps the folks that rebuilt the motor did something wrong.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*did the motor work properly at all?*

If the motor worked fine, but then suddenly you had this issue, there's your answer. If the motor does not change it's RPM or sound, then the belts are slipping. If the whole cutterhead and motor bog down then it's probably the motor. It could also be a wiring issue, but again if nothing changed between "working fine" and bogging down, I would suspect the motor.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Some basic problem determination needs to happen, too little info.

Did the machine work OK after the motor and switch work?

Have you checked all of the components? Spindle turns OK? Belts are tight? Switch connections are all solid and tight? Any sign of belt slippage? Is this a cutter you have used before? Are you using an extension cord?

Basically if it was working, things changed, and now it isn't working, the most likely suspects are the items that have changed. That's the 80%, sometimes it ends up being in the other 20%, but not typically.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> Some basic problem determination needs to happen, too little info.
> 
> Did the machine work OK after the motor and switch work?
> 
> ...


Let me see if I can get some of these questions answered so that you guys can better help me. The Shaper worked fine after the motor rebuild, however, it has not worked since installing the new switch, which is not a stock Delta switch, but rather a standard generic switch, although it was installed by an authorized Delta repair center. 

The spindle turns ok by hand, but, when you turn the machine on, you have to spin the cutter or spindle by hand to get it rotating. It has been like that for over a year, and previously worked fine with this issue. You just had to spin the cutter by hand to get it going. 

I am not using an extension cord. How do I know if the belt is good? It seems to be ok, doesn't seem to be worn out, but I am not sure how to tell how well it is working?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't know if this is possible but it sounds like the machine is 220v and you are only getting 110v at the motor. If you have a volt meter check each line at the motor.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't know if this is possible but it sounds like the machine is 220v and you are only getting 110v at the motor. If you have a volt meter check each line at the motor.


I know that it is switchable between 110 and 220. How do I check the lines with a volt meter? I have one but know next to mother about electrical stuff.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> If the motor worked fine, but then suddenly you had this issue, there's your answer. If the motor does not change it's RPM or sound, then the belts are slipping. If the whole cutterhead and motor bog down then it's probably the motor.* It could also be a wiring issue*, but again if nothing changed between "working fine" and bogging down, I would suspect the motor.





Danny870 said:


> ..... The Shaper worked fine after the motor rebuild, however, *it has not worked since installing the new switch,* which is not a stock Delta switch, but rather a standard generic switch, although it was installed by an authorized Delta repair center.


Well, there's your answer. Did the service center test run the switch and motor at the time of installation?
Was the install done in their shop or at your shop?
Either it was wired incorrectly or one of the wires has a faulty connection. Look for a loose wire before anything else. If they used crimp on terminals, sometimes they don't get the wires all the way in or the crimp is in front of the wire's end and is not making a good connection.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> I know that it is switchable between 110 and 220. How do I check the lines with a volt meter? I have one but know next to mother about electrical stuff.


You should have three wires going to the motor. Two hot and one ground. Place the negative side of the volt meter on the ground and probe the two hot wires with the positive. Each should read 110 to 125 volts.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*only with the switch turned "ON"*



Steve Neul said:


> You should have three wires going to the motor. Two hot and one ground. Place the negative side of the volt meter on the ground and probe the two hot wires with the positive. Each should read 110 to 125 volts.



If the switch is OFF then there will be no voltage at the motor. A better, more safe way to test this is with the machine unplugged and use a continuity tester right from the plug terminal and follow that leg to the switch and then on the opposite side, switch ON, and then to the motor wire. You have to repeat this for the other plug terminal. Messing around with the machine plugged in could result in an inadvertent start up IF it's just a loose wire... or worse.


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

Danny870 said:


> Hey guys, I am having problems with my old (vintage as some might say) Delta Shaper Table. It turns on, but, once I feed in a board it bogs down and the cutter stops spinning like it doesn't have enough horse power to do the cut, even with Poplar or Pine. It worked great for many years, and the motor was rebuilt 6 months ago, and I installed a new switch. I need this machine up and running as soon as possible. Any ideas on what might be the problem? I am unsure of the exact model for this as the name badge and emblems have been gone since before I got it. Any suggestions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated!


what is it plug into a 11o outlet or 220 ?? that would be first to know, than check and see if it is plug into 110 than check if motor is set for 11o or 220 , if set on 220 than that would be what's wrong, it wouldn't be plug into 220 and motor set on 110 all hell would happen breaker would open up motor could be damage if set that way, you should't have to spin the spindle to get it going at all, danger here , get it so you don't have to do that, get some one that can do all the above right , factory guy again ?? good luck


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Danny870 said:


> The spindle turns ok by hand, but, when you turn the machine on, you have to spin the cutter or spindle by hand to get it rotating. It has been like that for over a year, and previously worked fine with this issue. You just had to spin the cutter by hand to get it going.


Hold on guys, before you get too far down the 120v vs 240v path. Let's back up to the statement above. Nothing so far indicates a voltage/wiring change that I see.

So prior to replacing the switch, did you have to help start the spindle? Or did that develop after replacing the switch?

Is the machine single phase? If so are you plugging the machine into a 120V outlet, or 240V? 

Some pics might help this along...


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> Hold on guys, before you get too far down the 120v vs 240v path. Let's back up to the statement above. Nothing so far indicates a voltage/wiring change that I see.
> 
> So prior to replacing the switch, did you have to help start the spindle? Or did that develop after replacing the switch?
> 
> ...


It worked fine even with having to spin the spindle by and hand to get it started. The switch was replaced and although it hasn't really worked right since then, it did however sit for a long time in between having the switch replaced and when I previously used it. It is a single phase machine with the option for 110v or 220v, and the service center said they put it in the 110 side.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Can someone tell me how the voltage can be changed from 110 to 220? I am starting to wonder if it is connected properly. Where can I look to check on this and what should I be looking for? I will check all the wires and use my volt meter to test the two hot wires as Steve described above. Don't worry, I won't fry myself!


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

What kind of service center lets a machine other than a lawn mower leave the shop that has to be spun by hand to start it?
Find another service center to diagnose the problems and get it operating properly while you still have all your fingers.

Rule Number 1 about electricity, if you have to ask don't touch it.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Danny870 said:


> It worked fine even with having to spin the spindle by and hand to get it started. The switch was replaced and although it hasn't really worked right since then, it did however sit for a long time in between having the switch replaced and when I previously used it. It is a single phase machine with the option for 110v or 220v, and the service center said they put it in the 110 side.


Starting it by hand isn't "working fine", it's an indication something isn't fine. Most commonly a start capacitor. We still aren't getting a clear timeline on this, so we will chase our tails until it's crystal clear.

And what do you have it plugged it to?

120V?

Machine worked fine(no hand start)

Machine had issues(hand start)

Switch replaced(still hand start)

Motor rebuilt(still hand start)

Machine still had issues(hand start)

Machine bogs down

Is that the order?


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> Starting it by hand isn't "working fine", it's an indication something isn't fine. Most commonly a start capacitor. We still aren't getting a clear timeline on this, so we will chase our tails until it's crystal clear.
> 
> And what do you have it plugged it to?
> 
> ...


Ok, let me see if I can clear this up for you guys. The machine is on a regular outlet 110v and never has to my knowledge been hooked up the other way to 220v. As long as I have owned it, it has always need a manual spindle turn to get it going. The service center only installed a new switch, and said that it worked fine with the exception of having to hand start by spinning the cutter, which they said they couldn't fix. The service center sucks, I know this, but it is the only Delta service center within 8 hours of driving distance. I live in Walnut Ridge Arkansas and it was a 2 hour drive just to get to this service center. The motor was rebuilt prior to my ownership and the former owner said the cutter needed manually turned both before and after the motor was rebuilt. So that has been an issue for the entire time both before and after the motor was rebuilt and before and after the switch was replaced. All the service center did was install a generic switch, they did not rebuild the motor. I don't know who did that. The motor has bogged down and the cutter stops both after the switch was installed, but I did not own this machine prior to that. So I don't know how long that has been an issue.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I think you need to bite the bullet, unbolt that motor and replace it with one that operates properly before you hurt yourself, what you are doing is not safe.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Danny870 said:


> Ok, let me see if I can clear this up for you guys. The machine is on a regular outlet 110v and never has to my knowledge been hooked up the other way to 220v. As long as I have owned it, it has always need a manual spindle turn to get it going. The service center only installed a new switch, and said that it worked fine with the exception of having to hand start by spinning the cutter, which they said they couldn't fix. The service center sucks, I know this, but it is the only Delta service center within 8 hours of driving distance. I live in Walnut Ridge Arkansas and it was a 2 hour drive just to get to this service center. The motor was rebuilt prior to my ownership and the former owner said the cutter needed manually turned both before and after the motor was rebuilt. So that has been an issue for the entire time both before and after the motor was rebuilt and before and after the switch was replaced. All the service center did was install a generic switch, they did not rebuild the motor. I don't know who did that. The motor has bogged down and the cutter stops both after the switch was installed, but I did not own this machine prior to that. So I don't know how long that has been an issue.


Thanks, so to me it sounds like there is an issue with the motor. Even though it was "rebuilt"(questionable) I suspect it still has an issue. As mentioned, start capacitors are the #1 cause of the symptom you initially had. Now that it has gotten worse something else might have been damaged.

Man you are way on the east side of the State, I've never been further than Harrison...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*generally speaking ...*



Danny870 said:


> Can someone tell me how the voltage can be changed from 110 to 220? I am starting to wonder if it is connected properly. Where can I look to check on this and what should I be looking for? I will check all the wires and use my volt meter to test the two hot wires as Steve described above. Don't worry, I won't fry myself!



A small shaper will have either a 1 HP or 1 1/2HP motor and it will be wired for 120V. Any motor larger than that, as a rule, will require 220V and be wired for that. So what does the plate on the motor say for HP? 

Once you have settled that question...120 V or 220V ? it will easier to diagnose the no start issue. So, for a 220 V "generic " switch it would ... as a rule ... be a double pole/double throw switch breaking both of the hot leads that supply the motor. 

That will be easy enough to diagnose with either a VOM or continuity tester or a neon voltage tester. Once it's determined the motor has supply voltage, then you can test the windings and other components. As suggested, a bad start capacitor will cause the issue you have.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> A small shaper will have either a 1 HP or 1 1/2HP motor and it will be wired for 120V. Any motor larger than that, as a rule, will require 220V and be wired for that. So what does the plate on the motor say for HP?
> 
> Once you have settled that question...120 V or 220V ? it will easier to diagnose the no start issue. So, for a 220 V "generic " switch it would ... as a rule ... be a double pole/double throw switch breaking both of the hot leads that supply the motor.
> 
> That will be easy enough to diagnose with either a VOM or continuity tester or a neon voltage tester. Once it's determined the motor has supply voltage, then you can test the windings and other components. As suggested, a bad start capacitor will cause the issue you have.


I was told by the service center that this machine is capable of running on either 120v or 220v, and that they (i.e. the service center) had it set to 120v. So I would assume that the generic switch they installed is a 120v switch. How do I go about determining if the motor has supply voltage? I have a volt meter on hand and if you could suggest a continuity tester and how I should use it, I will try and pick one up today. I know that it will need a new start compactor, and I will try and find out what the specs are on the compactor so that I can find a replacement and get it installed. I am assuming that the start compactor is soldered to some sort of circuit board?


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

FrankC said:


> I think you need to bite the bullet, unbolt that motor and replace it with one that operates properly before you hurt yourself, what you are doing is not safe.


Do you have any suggestions on where to find a replacement motor, or a competent shop that I could send it to for an overhaul? I wonder what a new motor would cost versus a rebuild?


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> Thanks, so to me it sounds like there is an issue with the motor. Even though it was "rebuilt"(questionable) I suspect it still has an issue. As mentioned, start capacitors are the #1 cause of the symptom you initially had. Now that it has gotten worse something else might have been damaged.
> 
> Man you are way on the east side of the State, I've never been further than Harrison...


Unfortunately there aren't many resources for help in this area. What part of OK do you live? At this point I would almost be ready to drive all the way over there if you could help fix it for me! My wife has been complaining that we never go anywhere, so maybe I could kill two birds with one stone! LoL


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> I was told by the service center that this machine is capable of running on either 120v or 220v, and that they (i.e. the service center) had it set to 120v. So I would assume that the generic switch they installed is a 120v switch. How do I go about determining if the motor has supply voltage? I have a volt meter on hand and if you could suggest a continuity tester and how I should use it, I will try and pick one up today. I know that it will need a new start compactor, and I will try and find out what the specs are on the compactor so that I can find a replacement and get it installed. I am assuming that the start compactor is soldered to some sort of circuit board?


I think you would save yourself a lot of time and grief if you had a electrician check it out. If it's miss-wired the electrician should be able to fix it in ten minutes. If there is actually something wrong with the switch or motor they will know. If the switch is just defective you can get a new switch the same model and just swap it out yourself. There shouldn't be much cost in just a service call.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Danny870 said:


> Do you have any suggestions on where to find a replacement motor, or a competent shop that I could send it to for an overhaul? I wonder what a new motor would cost versus a rebuild?


Get the specs for your motor, RPM, HP, phase, mounting, etc then start looking online. I was looking for a compressor motor a while back, EBAY had some decent deals. Just searched for "shaper motor" on EBAY and got the following:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELTA-82-04...394443?hash=item542810110b:g:d0oAAOSwgQ9Vwhh6

Here are the results for "1.5hp motor"(over 2000).

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...0.X1.5hp+motor.TRS0&_nkw=1.5hp+motor&_sacat=0

As with any online purchase, make sure you check it, and the seller out thoroghly.



Danny870 said:


> Unfortunately there aren't many resources for help in this area. What part of OK do you live? At this point I would almost be ready to drive all the way over there if you could help fix it for me! My wife has been complaining that we never go anywhere, so maybe I could kill two birds with one stone! LoL


Yea, looks like you are pretty remote, bet it's pretty there though.

I'm in Tulsa, pretty good haul from you though. 

With some good pics we could probably help you do a good portion of the problem determination. There are also a slew of youtube videos for just about every subject, checking a motor capacitor, replacing a capacitor(pretty much plug and play), checking the windings, etc...

If this is a machine you use a lot, and depend on for income, you might consider just getting a new one, Grizzly has some decent deals. The store in Springfield is worth a visit.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Also found this, I'm going to visit the Springfield store this week, it's worth the trip...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Motor-1-1-2-HP-Single-Phase-3450-RPM-TEFC-110V-220V/H5382


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> Get the specs for your motor, RPM, HP, phase, mounting, etc then start looking online. I was looking for a compressor motor a while back, EBAY had some decent deals. Just searched for "shaper motor" on EBAY and got the following:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELTA-82-04...394443?hash=item542810110b:g:d0oAAOSwgQ9Vwhh6
> 
> ...


I seriously wish that I could afford a new one. I currently own 3 shapers including this one. I like to keep my two new shapers setup for running stiles and rails, and I had planned on using this old Delta for running my raised panels, that way I don't have to break down the cutters on my other two shapers and be able to just leave them setup semi perminately as 99% or my customers prefer the same raised panel door design. I will take some pics this afternoon and hopefully you guys can help me figure this out! 

I wonder if that Grizzly motor would bolt up to my Delta? I have seen some used Delta motors on eBay but I have no idea what the model of my shaper is because it is so old that got name badges and emblems have all been removed or fallen off prior to my ownership. I wonder if any of the old Delta motors would bolt right up, or would I need a specific model? If that Grizzly would bolt right up I would probably buy it right now.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> I think you would save yourself a lot of time and grief if you had a electrician check it out. If it's miss-wired the electrician should be able to fix it in ten minutes. If there is actually something wrong with the switch or motor they will know. If the switch is just defective you can get a new switch the same model and just swap it out yourself. There shouldn't be much cost in just a service call.


I will take your advice and contact an electrician buddy to have him come look at it. I wonder how hard it would be to replace the start compactor? I would like to replace that, first and foremost, then I could go through the wiring and hopefully determine what the issue is. I am almost certain that the issue has something to do with the 120v versus 220v settings and/or the wiring, in addition to the start compactor. 

Does anyone know how these machines can be switched from 120v to 220v? That is where I will begin..


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> I will take your advice and contact an electrician buddy to have him come look at it. I wonder how hard it would be to replace the start compactor? I would like to replace that, first and foremost, then I could go through the wiring and hopefully determine what the issue is. I am almost certain that the issue has something to do with the 120v versus 220v settings and/or the wiring, in addition to the start compactor.
> 
> Does anyone know how these machines can be switched from 120v to 220v? That is where I will begin..


Usually a start capacitor you just remove one or two screws that hold the cover on and the capacitor is just sitting there loose. It just has two wires plugged to the top of it easily changed. The whole project should only take 5 minutes assuming it's not hard to get to. If you have to remove the motor then that's another story. Just be sure to get one that matches exactly. There are so many different ones that would fit but be the wrong electrically. 

As far as whether the motor can be switched from 120v to 220v you would have to look at the plate on the motor. It would either be marked 120v or 220v or 120/220v. If it's marked 120/220v then it can be changed. Personally, if it were 120/220v I would wire it to 220v and provide that power for it. The machine will just run better on 220 volts than 110 volts. Motors have magnets in them which make them turn. A 110v motor has one magnet on one side that turns it. A 220v motor has two magnets, one on each side that turns it. Under a load it would be the difference between a one cylinder engine and a two cylinder engine.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Usually a start capacitor you just remove one or two screws that hold the cover on and the capacitor is just sitting there loose. It just has two wires plugged to the top of it easily changed. The whole project should only take 5 minutes assuming it's not hard to get to. If you have to remove the motor then that's another story. Just be sure to get one that matches exactly. There are so many different ones that would fit but be the wrong electrically.
> 
> As far as whether the motor can be switched from 120v to 220v you would have to look at the plate on the motor. It would either be marked 120v or 220v or 120/220v. If it's marked 120/220v then it can be changed. Personally, if it were 120/220v I would wire it to 220v and provide that power for it. The machine will just run better on 220 volts than 110 volts. Motors have magnets in them which make them turn. A 110v motor has one magnet on one side that turns it. A 220v motor has two magnets, one on each side that turns it. Under a load it would be the difference between a one cylinder engine and a two cylinder engine.


Thank you for the advice Steve! Might I ask what cover you are referring with regards to finding the start compactor? The plate that you have to access for changing the spindle is no longer on the unit and has been gone since before I owned it. Is that the cover you are referring to? 

Also, with regards to the plate that should have the voltage on it, where is that plate located? I need to get you guys some pics, will try to do that after work this afternoon. I would like to run a 220v line to my shop, unfortunately my shop is also my sun porch in the back of my home, which was built in the 1950's. The roof on my house has a very low pitch with no access to the attic without tearing off drywall and all the walls are either formed concrete or cinder block, making it extremely difficult to reach the breaker box (which is old as dirt anyway) on the complete other side of the house. So for now, I will have to stick with 120v.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Thank you for the advice Steve! Might I ask what cover you are referring with regards to finding the start compactor? The plate that you have to access for changing the spindle is no longer on the unit and has been gone since before I owned it. Is that the cover you are referring to?
> 
> Also, with regards to the plate that should have the voltage on it, where is that plate located? I need to get you guys some pics, will try to do that after work this afternoon. I would like to run a 220v line to my shop, unfortunately my shop is also my sun porch in the back of my home, which was built in the 1950's. The roof on my house has a very low pitch with no access to the attic without tearing off drywall and all the walls are either formed concrete or cinder block, making it extremely difficult to reach the breaker box (which is old as dirt anyway) on the complete other side of the house. So for now, I will have to stick with 120v.


Without being there and seeing the motor I can only give general information. A start capacitor on a motor is under this cover on a motor. Not every motor is made this way though.

On this motor the voltage requirement info for motor is on the label next to the capacitor cap.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Usually a start capacitor you just remove one or two screws that hold the cover on and the capacitor is just sitting there loose. It just has two wires plugged to the top of it easily changed. The whole project should only take 5 minutes assuming it's not hard to get to. If you have to remove the motor then that's another story. Just be sure to get one that matches exactly. There are so many different ones that would fit but be the wrong electrically.
> 
> As far as whether the motor can be switched from 120v to 220v you would have to look at the plate on the motor. It would either be marked 120v or 220v or 120/220v. If it's marked 120/220v then it can be changed. Personally, if it were 120/220v I would wire it to 220v and provide that power for it. The machine will just run better on 220 volts than 110 volts. Motors have magnets in them which make them turn. A 110v motor has one magnet on one side that turns it. A 220v motor has two magnets, one on each side that turns it. Under a load it would be the difference between a one cylinder engine and a two cylinder engine.


Steve, do you have a link to show this? I've never heard that about the additional magnets before.

In addition you make it sound like a 1HP motor, would only develop 1/2HP on 120V, and 1HP on 220V. I thought it was 1HP regardless? The only difference is the current draw between 120V and 220V.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

shoot summ said:


> Steve, do you have a link to show this? I've never heard that about the additional magnets before.
> 
> In addition you make it sound like a 1HP motor, would only develop 1/2HP on 120V, and 1HP on 220V. I thought it was 1HP regardless? The only difference is the current draw between 120V and 220V.


First of all electric current goes from positive to negative and back and with 220V when one line is positive the other is negative. 

Electric motors are operated by electromagnets. This one illustrated would be like that of a 110V motor. It has one magnet on one side and since electricity is alternating current the magnet turns on and off 60 times a second. The armature is attracted by the magnet and by the time it gets there the magnet turns negative and it keeps going. Then when the magnet fires again it races around again, over and over until the power is turned off. 

Now the principle is the same with 220V except each side is switching back and forth from positive to negative. 

Well a 1 hp motor is a 1 hp motor whether it is 110v or 220v. It just has to work harder under a load and overheats easier.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Without being there and seeing the motor I can only give general information. A start capacitor on a motor is under this cover on a motor. Not every motor is made this way though.
> 
> On this motor the voltage requirement info for motor is on the label next to the capacitor cap.


Ok, I will check to see if I can locate that section of the motor with a plate such as that when I get home from work around 1:30pm this afternoon. Hopefully it is in an accessible location without having to pull the cabinet off or take the motor out. I keep forgetting to take some pics, so I will make myself a note to take some pics when I get home as well.

I want you guys to know how much I appreciate all the help! This is seriously an awesome community and I am grateful to be here!


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> First of all electric current goes from positive to negative and back and with 220V when one line is positive the other is negative.
> 
> Electric motors are operated by electromagnets. This one illustrated would be like that of a 110V motor. It has one magnet on one side and since electricity is alternating current the magnet turns on and off 60 times a second. The armature is attracted by the magnet and by the time it gets there the magnet turns negative and it keeps going. Then when the magnet fires again it races around again, over and over until the power is turned off.
> 
> ...


Thanks, not to belabor the point, but with my limited electrical knowledge I couldn't put all of what you initially said together. Now that I've done some research it appears this is a topic that comes up a lot, with a lot of misunderstandings about what your really get from 220V. I found a thread on another forum with this little clip, really sums it up for me.

You don't get more power at 220. Remember volts x amps = Watts if you are (simplified) 110v x 10A = 1100 watts. That same motor at 220v would be 220v x 5A = 1100W. You don't gain power or anything it's not cheaper, because you pay based on KWH. Where there is a difference is amps/leg pulled. In 220 you have two hots so that amp is pulled across both main legs of your power source. It lowers the amount of current and pulled and the farther away from the source the more heat can be generated and heat can be a killer to a motor. You can run higher (thinner) guage wire and it helps balance the loads on your main lines (L1 L2). Think about it, a 20A 220 line would be 40a at 110, that takes a lot of copper to carry without heating up. Another big component is that start-up voltage and the more current pull.

Also found this:

All convertable 120/240 motors run on 120 volts internally. There are two coils each running 120 volts and using 1/2 the 120 volt amperage (The coils act as a resistance and split the amperage). All you do when you re-wire the motor to run on 240 is change the wiring connecting of the coils from parallel to series. When wired for 240 volt operation, one 120 volt leg and its associated amperage is routed to each individual coil rather than a single 120 volt line providing 120 volts to both coils. The same voltage and amperage runs through the individual coils no matter how it it wired. It is amperage that creates heat, and because the amperage in each coil is the same for both wiring configuations, there is no difference in the heat produced by either wiring configuation. The motor is perfectly happy with either voltage and doesn't even know you made the change. 

The only advantage to re-wiring for 240 is that it reduces the amperage in shop wiring running from the breaker to the wall outlet. This means that the voltage drop in the wiring is lessened. If your wiring is properly sized for the amperage and run length, voltage drop will be minimal and well within the operation range of any good motor. Voltage drop will be almost equal if the wire size is the required size for each different motor amperage. Only if your wiring is inadequate for the higher amperage of 120 volts will the motor run better when you convert it to 240. In this case, upgrading the 120 volt wiring one size and making it a dedicated curcuit, will accomplish the same as installing a 240 volt circuit and wiring the motor for 240. 

If a motor is coming up to speed very slowly or is tripping a breaker during start up or when under normal load, you either have other loads on the circuit, or the circuit is undersized for the amperage or the run length. The fixes are: remove the other loads from the circuit or upgrade the circuit. To upgrade the circuit, either rewire with heavier wire and a larger 120 volt breaker, or convert the circuit to 240 volts which has the affect of lowering the wiring amperage draw. Either of these solutions will equally fix the problem. Again, the motor doesn't care and won't perform differently as long as it gets clean power.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*still waiting for this answer .....*



woodnthings said:


> A small shaper will have either a 1 HP or 1 1/2HP motor and it will be wired for 120V. Any motor larger than that, as a rule, will require 220V and be wired for that. So what does the plate on the motor say for HP?
> 
> Once you have settled that question...120 V or 220V ? it will easier to diagnose the no start issue. So, for a 220 V "generic " switch it would ... as a rule ... be a double pole/double throw switch breaking both of the hot leads that supply the motor.


What is the HP rating on the motor? If it's 3 HP it will always be wired for 220V.

If it's 1 1/2 HP or less, it can be wired either way.

Assuming it's not 3 HP, you can start there. 
Are there colored wires or numbered wired coming out of the motor. This will help determine how to wire it.
I don't recall seeing a photo of what those wires look like...? Is there a name plate with a diagram? That would be helpful. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

shoot summ said:


> Thanks, not to belabor the point, but with my limited electrical knowledge I couldn't put all of what you initially said together. Now that I've done some research it appears this is a topic that comes up a lot, with a lot of misunderstandings about what your really get from 220V. I found a thread on another forum with this little clip, really sums it up for me.
> 
> You don't get more power at 220. Remember volts x amps = Watts if you are (simplified) 110v x 10A = 1100 watts. That same motor at 220v would be 220v x 5A = 1100W. You don't gain power or anything it's not cheaper, because you pay based on KWH. Where there is a difference is amps/leg pulled. In 220 you have two hots so that amp is pulled across both main legs of your power source. It lowers the amount of current and pulled and the farther away from the source the more heat can be generated and heat can be a killer to a motor. You can run higher (thinner) guage wire and it helps balance the loads on your main lines (L1 L2). Think about it, a 20A 220 line would be 40a at 110, that takes a lot of copper to carry without heating up. Another big component is that start-up voltage and the more current pull.
> 
> ...


There is more to it than that. The motor isn't just as happy on 110v or they wouldn't be making 220v motors. When you run a machine on 220v you reduce the amps per line within the machine. This reduces the heat generating potential within the machine. It just works better to divide the work load on two or more coils rather than one. This is the reason for three phase, it has three coils at 120 degrees from each other so it gets a hit of power more frequently.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> There is more to it than that. The motor isn't just as happy on 110v or they wouldn't be making 220v motors. When you run a machine on 220v you reduce the amps per line within the machine. This reduces the heat generating potential within the machine. It just works better to divide the work load on two or more coils rather than one. This is the reason for three phase, it has three coils at 120 degrees from each other so it gets a hit of power more frequently.


So I did pay attention in electronics class... 

The watts are the same as outlined in the post I shared above. It will not produce more heat at the same watts. More heat is produced if the motor is overloaded, that is going to happen regardless of the voltage you feed it. I just went through this with my compressor, new pump had specs for RPM. On my 5HP 220V motor I used the pulley that matched the RPM specified by the vendor. Under high load the motor would trip the thermal, or pop the breaker. Checked the current draw and it was 27A instead of 22A. More amps in the VxA=W equation gives you more watts(heat). I swapped the pulley to a smaller one and the issue went away. You might see less overloading in 220V for several reasons, primarily the infrastructure feeding the motor, but 220V doesn't make it produce more power(already established). Many 120V circuits tend to be undersized for the application, (too) small wire adds impedance, extension cords add impedance, all causing a voltage drop, motor doesn't run as well with low voltage, takes more current, and they tend to get hot. Most 220V circuits are single use, properly sized and supplied, very few, or no extension cords. So the motors seem to run "better".

And it is the same number of coils, 120V or 220V, just running in series, not parallel. 

220V motors are for higher HP applications(and higher apps use 3PH), that is the main reason they are produced, and as outlined above, the lower infrastructure cost(wiring, etc) associated. To run my 5HP compressor motor on 120V would take a dedicated 50-60amp circuit and some huge wire to support it. On 220V it is a dedicated 30A circuit using 10GA(I think). 

For a 1HP motor it really doesn't make a difference, it is more about how your shop is set up IMO. If you have 220V drops everywhere then run it as 220V. But more than likely there is an abundance of 120V drops in most (home) shops.

Good discussion, it appears based on searches that this topic gets a lot of discussion. There is also a big split about what people believe, and what can be proven.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never studied electric motors. All I can do is report what has been told to me from different electricians over the years in conjunction with my personal experiences with machinery. I've had air compressors that just wouldn't even start and run unless they were wired to 220. I also burned up a table saw motor running it off 110v. The repair shop I took the motor to told me if I had it wired to 220v it probably wouldn't have burned up. They told me when ever possible always use 220v and for the reasons I described above. What they told me just makes common sense to me.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never studied electric motors. All I can do is report what has been told to me from different electricians over the years in conjunction with my personal experiences with machinery. I've had air compressors that just wouldn't even start and run unless they were wired to 220. I also burned up a table saw motor running it off 110v. The repair shop I took the motor to told me if I had it wired to 220v it probably wouldn't have burned up. They told me when ever possible always use 220v and for the reasons I described above. What they told me just makes common sense to me.


It makes common sense to most of us that have actually used tools, but there will always be the mathematicians behind a keyboard that can "prove" otherwise.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never studied electric motors. All I can do is report what has been told to me from different electricians over the years in conjunction with my personal experiences with machinery. I've had air compressors that just wouldn't even start and run unless they were wired to 220. I also burned up a table saw motor running it off 110v. The repair shop I took the motor to told me if I had it wired to 220v it probably wouldn't have burned up. They told me when ever possible always use 220v and for the reasons I described above. What they told me just makes common sense to me.


I learned a long time ago to validate things I have been "told". Common sense makes me question things that don't have any substance to back it up. The last Electricians that worked on my house made some ridiculous claims about something I knew to be untrue, so even Electricians can be wrong.

It's like the folks that believe putting high octane fuel in their car makes it "run better", because it "burns hotter".

Which is really funny, because high octane fuel does not actually "burn hotter", but there are some folks you will never convince that it doesn't, because they've "been told" otherwise and they are certain they can tell the difference.


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## Shop_Rat (Dec 22, 2015)

I think I read all of the thread, but may have missed a line or two. So if this has been covered, forgive me.

Does your motor have a start capacitor? Does it have any humps on it at all? I ask because if was simply a capacitor start or run or both motor, it should have been easy for them to repair it. Since they stated that they could not fix it, I'm interested to know if it might be a split phase induction motor. If it is, the repair shop may have had a case. 

A split phase induction motor has two sets of windings and a centrifugal switch (it could possibly still have start or run or both capacitors). When power is applied, the start winding brings the motor close to speed, and then the centrifugal switch disconnects the start winding and connects the run winding.

If the centrifugal switch does not function on spin up, the start winding will not disconnect and the run winding will not connect. This will cause the motor to essentially sluggishly run with almost zero power. If the centrifugal switch does not function in coast down, the run winding will not disconnect and the start winding will not connect for the next startup. This will result in a motor that cannot start on its own without some help.

One easy way to know if you have a split phase motor is that you will hear a click at some point when the motor is winding down. And if the tool isn't too loud, you can also hear the click when it is spooling up. However, even if you hear the click, do not assume it is working correctly. Contacts could be burnt away or stuck. So if it is an older motor, the repair shop may not have been able to get parts to repair the centrifugal switch. Just a thought.

FYI, almost all motors in the shop are induction motors of one type or another. They are brushless. Most of them rely an a capacitor to send an extra jolt of power to start the motor turning, including many motors with centrifugal switches. Once they are turning, electromagnetism takes over. Some even employ capacitors for the run winding as well.

Sorry so long winded. I am a thirty five year industrial electrician. And all I did for twenty of those years was motors/ motor control/ variable speed drive related. It's sometimes hard for me to explain things with only a sentence or two. I'll shut up now.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great explanation!*

Who says woodworkers don't know about electricity .... oh you are an electrician also. Great.:thumbsup:
By all means don't "shut up now" . :no:


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Shop_Rat said:


> I think I read all of the thread, but may have missed a line or two. So if this has been covered, forgive me.
> 
> Does your motor have a start capacitor? Does it have any humps on it at all? I ask because if was simply a capacitor start or run or both motor, it should have been easy for them to repair it. Since they stated that they could not fix it, I'm interested to know if it might be a split phase induction motor. If it is, the repair shop may have had a case.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed information on split phase induction motors! Fortunately, I don't think that my old Delta shaper is a split phase induction motor. But, I will verify when I get home from work around noon today. I keep forgetting to take pictures for this thread, but, I will definitely try to get the pics up by noon today. I was told by a guy who used to work on and restore these old Delta machines that the issue of having to manually spin the cutter to get it going is definitely a start compactor. As for the other issue of the motor bogging down and then the cutter stops spinning once I feed something into it, he said that it very well could b wired wrong (as you guys suggested). I am taking pics today and hopefully we can collectively figure this out together! If not, I guess that I will disassemble the cabinet, remove the motor and spindle cartridge and send them to be repaired at a better facility, (or I might just sell it). Will have pics up soon.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I listed my Delta shaper for sale on Craigslist a while back, no takers so I took it down.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Ok, so here are some pics. There are four wires coming out of the motor. A red and grey wire that are connected via a wire nut, then another grey wire attached to a black wire that is going to the switch, and a black wire also attached via another wire nut to a wire going to the switch, and a green wire attached to the ground screw. Any thoughts?


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Pic number two


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Pic number three


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Pic number four. 

Sorry, can't get them to appear all in one post


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## Shop_Rat (Dec 22, 2015)

Your photos are too small for me to see. There are often wiring diagrams either under the connection cover or on the nameplate (or even a stand alone tag). Look for one. If it is there please take a BIG picture of it. If it is not there, then take a BIG picture of the nameplate. We might be able to get some information from the model/ serial number. The wire colors themselves are mainly unimportant.

Do you have a multimeter?

We will also need to see the switch wiring. Pull everything out and separate the mass as best you can so we can see the connections. Again, leave the picture larger if you can. The better we can see stuff, the closer we are to a possible solution. 

Just FYI, capacitors are cheap, plentiful, and easy to install. No repair shop that I know of would omit a new cap during a rebuild. If you are having trouble with almost any single phase motor (unless you have somehow released the magic smoke), the first order of troubleshooting usually involves a new cap. I keep several of different values at the ready.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Shop_Rat said:


> Your photos are too small for me to see. There are often wiring diagrams either under the connection cover or on the nameplate (or even a stand alone tag). Look for one. If it is there please take a BIG picture of it. If it is not there, then take a BIG picture of the nameplate. We might be able to get some information from the model/ serial number. The wire colors themselves are mainly unimportant.
> 
> Do you have a multimeter?
> 
> ...


I will try and take some larger pictures when I get home around 9:00am this morning. All of the badges and emblems have fallen off before I owned this unit, the only thing left is a plate on the motor and it says something induction motor. I will get some close up pics of that plate. 

And yes, I do own a cheap multi meter. I have been meaning to buy a slightly better multi meter. (Any decent budget ones that you would suggest?) 

What kind of test do you suggest that I do with the multi meter?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

While you are taking some larger pictures look at the wires and see if there is any numbers on those wires. When wiring a motor 110V or 220V you wire it different and they usually number the wires so you know which wire goes where.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Here is a close up/bigger pic of the wires coming out of the motor where they are connected via wire nuts to the switch. None of the wires are numbered. There are four wires coming from the motor. There are a greyish brown and red wire coming from the motor and they are both connected together via a wire nut, not connected otherwise to the switch, just each other. Then another greyish brown wire coming from the motor connected via a wire nut to a black wire going to the switch, then black wire coming from the motor connected to a white wire via a wire nut going to the switch, then the green ground wire going to the ground screw. Does this look correct?


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyone?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Anyone?


Most every brand of electric motor has a different system of wiring. Since the wires are not numbered the only hope for us to help you is to give us the make and model of the motor. Your motor, the wires are color coded so only someone that works on motors on a daily basis could guess what's what. Delta probably didn't make the motor, they just stuck a stock motor on the machine. With the make and model number we maybe can find a schematic for the wiring. These are difficult to find online but it's the only hope as I see it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*we are at post 55 of this thread*

There is yet to be a photo of decent size of the wires or the name plate or any better description of the motor in spite of all the sage advice. < (

Just take the dang thing into a motor repair shop and have it done. I had similar issue with a reversing switch on a lathe motor I got that was "unwired" for ease of transportation. After 3 days in the shop,.... there were motors covering every square foot of the floor and benches .... and $40.00 it was up and running. :yes:


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

*Electric Motor Repair shops*

I too am a fan of electric motor repair shops. I have one about 20 miles away but worth the trip everytime. They save me time and money and get it fixed. They ask you what your dollar limit is on fixing the motor and if they expect it to go over that they will call you first with the estimate to repair. 
Finding a good electric motor repair shop sometimes is difficult. 

Marty


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> There is yet to be a photo of decent size of the wires or the name plate or any better description of the motor in spite of all the sage advice. < (
> 
> Just take the dang thing into a motor repair shop and have it done. I had similar issue with a reversing switch on a lathe motor I got that was "unwired" for ease of transportation. After 3 days in the shop,.... there were motors covering every square foot of the floor and benches .... and $40.00 it was up and running. :yes:


Loosing your patience? :laughing:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup!*



Steve Neul said:


> Loosing your patience? :laughing:


I don't think this a DYI affair. He's had help from every knowledgeable member so far, and we are still at the starting gate. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I don't think this a DYI affair. He's had help from every knowledgeable member so far, and we are still at the starting gate. :yes:


I know but sometimes with the resources available to a person the task won't get done unless you do it yourself whether you are up to the task or not. His electrician buddy may be too busy to go over there or there may not be a motor repair shop in his area.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I know but sometimes with the resources available to a person the task won't get done unless you do it yourself whether you are up to the task or not. His electrician buddy may be too busy to go over there or there may not be a motor repair shop in his area.


He's already indicated there isn't a shop nearby. And we all have really tried to help, but more work is needed on his side. If someone wants to invest some time and effort, there are plenty of internet resources these days to guide you through just about anything. The issue is it requires the person to stop, and invest some time. Seems like right now time is the issue.

There was a nice 1.5HP reversible motor in the scratch and dent section at the Grizzly store in Springfield yesterday. The fan cover was dinged up, $100. That would be a quick easy fix, except it would still need to be wired up, and we can't seem to get that part worked out...

There was also a nice shaper for $475, that might be the best solution... :laughing::laughing:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

shoot summ said:


> He's already indicated there isn't a shop nearby. And we all have really tried to help, but more work is needed on his side. If someone wants to invest some time and effort, there are plenty of internet resources these days to guide you through just about anything. The issue is it requires the person to stop, and invest some time. Seems like right now time is the issue.
> 
> There was a nice 1.5HP reversible motor in the scratch and dent section at the Grizzly store in Springfield yesterday. The fan cover was dinged up, $100. That would be a quick easy fix, except it would still need to be wired up, and we can't seem to get that part worked out...
> 
> There was also a nice shaper for $475, that might be the best solution... :laughing::laughing:


It gives us something to do though to talk about it. :laughing:


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> There is yet to be a photo of decent size of the wires or the name plate or any better description of the motor in spite of all the sage advice. < (
> 
> Just take the dang thing into a motor repair shop and have it done. I had similar issue with a reversing switch on a lathe motor I got that was "unwired" for ease of transportation. After 3 days in the shop,.... there were motors covering every square foot of the floor and benches .... and $40.00 it was up and running. :yes:



I can not get a better picture due to the location of the connection box on the inside of the cabinet. There is no room for my camera and it is dark. I can try to have my wife hold a flash light when she gets home today. Also all of the plates and badges are gone and have been since I got it. There is a plate on the motor with some info on it but almost all of the letters have been worn off. The only thing that I can make out on the plate is (something) induction motor. There are no motor repair shops in my area within a 2 hour drive. Although, if I could find one in the Memphis area, i would gladly drive the 2 hours to bring it to them. I live in rural Arkansas in a town of 4,000 people so my reasorces are few. 

I will take your advice and try to locate a good shop in the Memphis area (2 hours from me) that rebuilds motors such as these, and let them attempt to fix it.  

If any one can suggest or recommend a specific motor repair shop in the Memphis area, I would appreciate it.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

shoot summ said:


> He's already indicated there isn't a shop nearby. And we all have really tried to help, but more work is needed on his side. If someone wants to invest some time and effort, there are plenty of internet resources these days to guide you through just about anything. The issue is it requires the person to stop, and invest some time. Seems like right now time is the issue.
> 
> There was a nice 1.5HP reversible motor in the scratch and dent section at the Grizzly store in Springfield yesterday. The fan cover was dinged up, $100. That would be a quick easy fix, except it would still need to be wired up, and we can't seem to get that part worked out...
> 
> There was also a nice shaper for $475, that might be the best solution... :laughing::laughing:


I would love to replace this motor with a new one, especially if I could get one for $100! Can you or anyone else explain to me how I can tell if any various motors will fit my machine? I know that some of you already suggested that I look on the plate on the motor for its model and specs, but unfortunately the letters are all worn off. All that I can make out is (something) induction motor. 

I know that you guys are getting frustrated with me, and I apologize for that. I am extremely grateful for the huge amount of assistance that you guys have given me!  I have some specific questions that I am posting in a post below this one, and hopefully I can end this discussion soon thereafter. 😀


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

So the general consenence seems to be that this could likely be an issue with the wiring. I have a friend who is an electrician but he can't make it over until next week. So I am wondering if there is anything that I can do with my multi meter to test whether it is incorrectly wired for 220v versus 110v where it should be? If so, please describe how I should do this test?

If I can not yeild any better results attempting to test the wiring, I think that I will pull the motor and find a motor repair shop. Memphis is a 2 hour drive from where I live in Arkansas, but at this point I might even be willing to drive to St. Louis if I can find a repair shop there.

Now, with regards to pulling the motor, do I turn the cabinet upside down and take out the visible bolts holding the motor on? Or is there more to it than that? I am not mechanically inclined. So any tips, suggestions or advice on pulling the motor would be great!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

More than likely turning the machine upside down will be the easiest way to remove the motor.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*motor mounts*

There are 2 general ways to mount a motor. One is to use the slots in the motor's base to tighten or loosen the belt tension.
The other is a hinge or pivot pin on which the motor's base is attached to a small platform. If you remove the pivot pin ... all of a sudden the entire weight of the motor will be on your hands. You can prop up the motor to support it's weight, but be careful to not move/bump the support while you are working on it.

You may be able to lay the machine over on it's side to access the motor. Shaper motors are generally mounted with the shafts vertical. Table saws and jointers have the shafts horizontal. I just don't think you can support the motor by hand and still loosen the bolts, unless you are a gorilla.


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## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Thanks for the reply Woodnthings! I definitely want to remove the motor and take it to a shop. Although I live in rural Arkansas, I could potentially drive to St. Louis, Memphis, Little Rock, or maybe Nashville. Do any of you guys know of a competent shop in these areas that you might recommend?



was contacted by a fellow that might want to trade an older but functional Weaver shaper (doesn't come with a fence) and it is 1.5HP single phase 120v for my Delta plus cash. Highly considering that option.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You shouldn't have to go that far. Electric motors need maintenance like anything else. Some electrical suppliers do repairs on the side. I bet if you ask a electrical supplier in your home town they know someone. If not you could google electric motor repair in some of the larger city's in your area.


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## [email protected] (May 3, 2020)

*Delta shaper issue*

Hey guys, I’m looking for some advice, have an issue with raising and lower main spindle, seems like the brass raising nut on spindle is some how binding as threads pass thru it, can see the polished look on threads from the friction, let me know if anyone else has had this issue; I have to use a monkey wrench on that spindle to raise or lower , delta has been no help and part not available if not oem , not sure what to do


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I;m sorry but I cant get past the part about spinning the cutter by hand to start it. 
I have been woodworking for a very long time and my most serious injury to date has been a splinter. No project is that important that I would risk a major injury.


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