# Metal Madness



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I have a nice big fat 30" wide log - to wide for the miser, but I can take off the top few slabs before hitting the width limit, but I have this slight problem. I keep trashing brand new blades by hitting nail after damn nail! But I'm stubbirn and want to get the thick slabs - this wood is kind of pretty.

























i don't know how I am gonna solve the dilemma.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Welcome to my world :sad:. This is a log I milled Monday (or Tuesday?) , shoulda been veneer quality walnut. See that little yellow circle in between the nails ? That was an entrance hole of _one_ of the copper jacketed rifle slugs I found after the nails :thumbdown:. I guessing someone decided it would be a good idea to nail targets on a veneer walnut and sight in their rifle by taking a few shots.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Did you continue to cut it?


----------



## stuart (Jan 20, 2008)

isn't there a way to see the nail using some tech stuff. like using a device to find studs behind the wall or sheetrock??


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> Did you continue to cut it?


Yep, cussin' and cuttin', 2 band changes. I actually flipped a guy a few buck for this log too cause it looked so good from the outside . I had an order for wide live edge slabs (the middle ones are right at 24", a full mill blade). 
I swear I jinxed myself, I have not paid for a log in way over a year (maybe 2 ?)...and I got hosed on that one too if I remember correctly :sad:. I still got some really good slabs off the thing, it's just the point I could have gotten 4-5 more.
Oh well, whatcha gonna do ? Being an urban logger I saw nails all the time, kinda surprises me when I mill one without metal in it. But this was not a yard tree, it came from some untouched timber that an excavation contractor was working and had to remove it and some other stuff. I know right where it came from (I flagged it on the job) and it should have been clean.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

stuart said:


> isn't there a way to see the nail using some tech stuff. like using a device to find studs behind the wall or sheetrock??


I have a metal detector, I run it over most logs. If I am looking at one and the metal detector is playing the theme song from "Close Encounters of the 3rd kind" :laughing: I leave it alone. I did not expect anything in that log...and it does not pick up lead, rocks, or worse yet porcelain insulators (they used to nail them to trees and run electric fence wire to keep cows in). Man those wreck a blade in a bad way.


----------



## stuart (Jan 20, 2008)

porcelain insulators 

never heard of 'em.

sounds like nails and such are the "bad" side of the millworks- I might add also dangerous!


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

stuart said:


> porcelain insulators
> 
> never heard of 'em.


This is what the ones I see look like.









The tree overgrows the insulator (swallows it up) and usually the nail rusts away, so it is undetectable. If a farmer had cows/sheep/horses...decades ago some times they would just nail these to trees and make a corral with electric fence wire. Well, they never removed them.


----------



## stuart (Jan 20, 2008)

interesting....


----------



## Rick Cichon (Mar 24, 2008)

Daren beat me to it. I go over all my logs with a metal detector.If I find anything I get the hammer and chisel and get it out.It damages a little wood and keeps the sawyer happy.{use cheap or damaged chisel}


----------



## Marko (Feb 11, 2008)

I just use the "munks".......TT? Have you tried yours yet(you said you had a box layin' aound).:thumbsup: 
I cut through 3 layers a barbwire that was up inside this Poplar(Daren can back this up)...funny thing is the next day I was sawing Oak and I told the owner I wouldn't charge him for that blade that I was going to use it to slab the first log then do a blade change.That same blade cut through 400+ bft of scrubs.Then I did a blade change :yes: and hit a totally embedded  rock on the secound pass.:furious: Sawed 700+ bft and the owner covered one blade.I'm not saying that any blade is good for cutting metal cause they are "NOT"........some are just better for the hazards. Mark


----------



## bigredc (Sep 1, 2007)

If you don't mind telling, what does a blade cost? I got some nice walnut slabs from a guy. I bet I've pulled out about 8 BBs so far. I'm assuming it's shot from a shot gun. The first couple that showed up while plaining confused the heck out of me. I couldn't figure out how metal got in a tree. Luckily it's lead, so as far as I can tell they haven't hurt anything.


----------



## joasis (Sep 15, 2006)

Daren said:


> Yep, cussin' and cuttin', 2 band changes. I actually flipped a guy a few buck for this log too cause it looked so good from the outside . I had an order for wide live edge slabs (the middle ones are right at 24", a full mill blade).
> I swear I jinxed myself, I have not paid for a log in way over a year (maybe 2 ?)...and I got hosed on that one too if I remember correctly :sad:. I still got some really good slabs off the thing, it's just the point I could have gotten 4-5 more.
> Oh well, whatcha gonna do ? Being an urban logger I saw nails all the time, kinda surprises me when I mill one without metal in it. But this was not a yard tree, it came from some untouched timber that an excavation contractor was working and had to remove it and some other stuff. I know right where it came from (I flagged it on the job) and it should have been clean.


In the picture, what are you using for stickers?


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

bigredc said:


> If you don't mind telling, what does a blade cost?.


$15-$20. They can be resharpened a few times ,$7-$10, when they get dull. If metal knocks teeth off they are ruined and have to be thrown away.
Really it is the labor (and frustration) of hitting something that we sawyers charge $20 a blade change because of a metal strike. I can cut a couple small nails without having to change the blade most often. But it usually does dull the blade at least a little,making for slower cutting. If I am charging by the BFT not the the hour a slow cut gets right in my pocket. Once a blade gets dull it is more likely to wander too making worse quality lumber.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

joasis said:


> In the picture, what are you using for stickers?


3/4" CPVC pipe, sch 80. I started doing that years ago when I still had the plumbing shop and running the mill. It has many advantages (price not being one of them of course :huh:, but they do last forever) On species that like to sticker stain, like maple, there is so little contact I have never had any stain. Another thing that is handy for me I can move a whole stack around on the concrete. They are slick (no friction wise), so I can put pipe down and push the stack sideway on to the new ones. Or I can roll a whole stack, put pipe down in front of one end and just push the bottom board, laying a path of new pipe as far as I want to move the stack. That is pretty handy in a tight space like I have to be able to manually move 1000+ lbs of wood with just a light push. That was something I found out after I started using them as a solution for sticker stain.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Another pipe I use is PEX hot water boiler tubing. It is a "soft" tubing (but pretty crush resistant really). Most of the species I mill don't move much when they air dry. The few that do I use wood stickers and weigh down the stack. But I would say 80% of my stuff is AD on pipe of one kind or the other. Small stacks just get stickered with PEX. I used to do alot of infloor heat ,a boiler and PEX tubing in the slab (I was a boiler tech/steam fitter too, my shop was plumbing/welding/boiler work). The pipe came in 100' rolls and I would always have oddball short lengths left over from a job that would never work on the next one of course. So I would chop it into sticker lengths. I probably have 3-55 gallon barrels of PEX stickers floating around the wood shed.


----------



## bigredc (Sep 1, 2007)

Since I'm fairly new to all this. The first time I needed some, I cut up a bunch of 3/4 emt. Being an electrician I have a bunch of that laying around. It rolled around a lot though. I eventually cut up some old particle board and re stacked it. I guess the smaller diameter stuff doesn't roll as easy. 
Chris


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I have never been satisfied with the sticker delimma. I have thought about ripping 1 1/4" PVC to 1) strect the dollar and 2) I don't want them able to roll. 
I'd have 1 point of contact on the top and 2 points on the bottom. Never have tried it tho.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I have not had any problem with them just rolling around on their own just to be doing it ? The floor is level, I stack them and walk away, there they stay. I did have to scoot that pile joasis asked about a foot or so to the side, no problem nothing rolled and the stickers stayed lined up.
The thin red pipe is PEX heating pipe, the gray stuff is the CPVC you can see how thick it is. (another advantage of the CPVC it can go right in the kiln, it is heat resistant) If you look at the pile of osage you can guess there is some weight on the bottom stickers for sure, they are not smashed.
To each his own. I just got tired of cutting sticker. I know with the pipe when I grab one it is the same size as the next so my piles will be flat. I still use some wood stickers, in fact I need to cut some more now that we are talking about it. I just like pipe better ?


----------



## Marko (Feb 11, 2008)

Daren,what brand CPVC is that? The reason I ask is,the cpvc we have around here(for hot water supply)is yellow guard or something like that.It is white and has a yellow stripe on it.Personally,I haven't seen the grey colored,only in elect.piping.Looks awfully thick from here.I saw "PVC for stickers" questions posted somewhere else and I'm glad the question was asked,good info for another method to stick boards:thumbsup: .


----------



## bigredc (Sep 1, 2007)

It's thick because it's schedule 80. Most of the time you see 40. The real thin stuff is 20. I've got about 2 stacks of wood 3' tall drying in my garage. They take up about the size of a car, almost. It's taking up all kind of space. So I start brain storming about building a lumber cart on wheels so I can wheel into the driveway if I need to use the garage for something. Being the scavenger, I'm always looking for good stuff everywhere. along the highway wherever. I'm driving behind the grocery store and there is this big busted up display thing about 4' X 5" square on nice 4 1/2" casters built out of 1" square stock. It was perfect. I put all my wood on it, and it still rolls around easy. That's one of reasons I couldn't use the pipe. I couldn't push on the stack to make it roll, without everything moving around. 
Chris


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Marko said:


> Daren,what brand CPVC is that?


If this link works it tells more about it http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6MZ11 . I would not suggest buying it from Grainger necessarily, they are pricey it's just a link to the stuff we are talking about. I used to get it for around 1/2 that $ from the plumbing supply house with my volume discount...but it still ain't cheap. But like I said, still using the same pipe after 5 years, wrote it off my taxes as material expense and that was that.

Don't let the working pressures listed confuse you into thinking it is not stout. CPVC "working pressure" is 400 psi. Max working temp is 210 degrees (way hotter that the kiln). To put working pressure into perspective standard black iron threaded pipe is referred to in the business as "150 WOG". Meaning it is ASTM certified for Water Or Gas (liquids, gases, compressed air, steam...) to 150 lbs working pressure. 
Can you believe I went to 5 years of trade school to learn all this stuff, now it's pushed into the furthest reaches of my brain to make room for more tree/wood info :wallbash3rd generation steam fitter/plumber/welder to boot) Oh well, this wood stuff is alot more fun :thumbsup:, even if it is alot less money :huh:.

Here is a reasonable alternative Sch 80 _PVC _I would suggest if someone was thinking about trying plastic pipe stickers. It is much cheaper, like 1/3 the $ and about as strong (still plenty strong for holding up some dumb old wood) http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6MV21 .Working pressure 340 psi and temp 140. If I were having to buy more, that is what I would buy now. At the time I bought all that CPVC I was working on a couple big jobs that the engineers had speced CPVC, I was buying it by the truckload and again had odd pieces that would not be able to follow me to the next job because the specs were different. I just bought extra too for my little sawmill side job .


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

The cart idea sounds like a good one Chris. I could see how you would have a crash with pipe in that case. I get long pallets, 9'x4' from the lawnmower shop next door. I will sticker and stack wood on them too sometimes. My whole shed is not concrete, part is rock, I put the pallets on the rock side. I use wood stickers on those piles, because I sometimes have to move the pallet with the forks on my skidsteer. I am lucky not to dump it with wood stickers...no way pipe would work :no:, I'd have it spread all over the place :laughing:.


----------

