# Please help me. how do you make curves?



## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

I am trying to do make skateboards. I finally learned how to make the rounded over edges with a router. But i'm having one major issue.


After I glue the 7 plys of maple together its one big rectangle (10"x36") I'm trying to "rough cut" it to be the shape of a skateboard usually 8" x 32"

However, I use a jigsaw to cut it and the long edges before the nose and tail curves aren't straight. Can I throw it through my router table to make them straight, and if so, how??

Also... is there a way to shape the edges better? If I were to cut like a template with the curves and somehow bolt the template to my rectangle shape and then pass that through the router?

I need help. I've been trying for months :furious::thumbdown:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Did you watch this*

From your other post. Between 2:40 and 3:02 they show how to cut the curves on a bandsaw, rout the curves on a router table then hand rout the edges. You tube has other videos on showing and routing curves. It's easier to see than explain in text.....

Also search how to use a flush trim router bit with a template.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

How do I make that template? and also where the hell do i get a router bit that large? Is that a wood shaper machine rather than a router table?

also, thank you for the quick response.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jason7 said:


> I am trying to do make skateboards. I finally learned how to make the rounded over edges with a router. But i'm having one major issue.
> 
> 
> After I glue the 7 plys of maple together its one big rectangle (10"x36") I'm trying to "rough cut" it to be the shape of a skateboard usually 8" x 32"
> ...


The easiest way to do that is to make a master pattern out of a 3/4" substrate. It can be plywood, solid wood, or MDF. That pattern is your exact shape. Check your pattern if used many times, as the edge has to be smooth, no bumps, and no indenture from the router bearing.

Take your rectangles and use double sided tape, or hot glue to fix the rectangle to the pattern. The overhang on the edges should be within 1/4". So, your rough cut with the jig saw, or a band saw doesn't have to be that exact, but close.

If you use a hand held router, you can use a flush trim bit with the bearing on the top, and rout with the pattern on top. If you use a flush trim bit with the bearing on the bottom, the pattern is in the bottom.

In a router table, the sequence is the same with the type of bit and whether the bearing is on top of the bit or on the bottom. When routing, the direction of the cut is having the flute cut into the material. This applies either when the router is hand used (router is moved) or in a table (workpiece is moved).












 







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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Bill,look around 1:47.....I'd make a six-pack bet,thats concrete(form,caul).And they said 40 tns.....easy enough.Not that I want to make a skatebd.

And to OP,there are some potential safety issues giving advice on internet........Not trying to disuade your interest in the slightest.Just sayin,before you jump on ANY technique banter'd about on the net.....try to educate yourself on as many "systems" as possible.I'd say the #1 issue is production numbers.The video Bill posted looks to me to be a medium sized co.

What I'm saying is only you can decide how far you want to take this.....

>are you just looking to supply yourself and a few friends?

>Is this for proffesional use....as in prototype development.

>start-up co.....whats your production expectations?

And don't answer that for me....answer it to and for yourself.Because thats what determines alot of the processes and/or equip needed.That ain't a router table in Bills vid...its a shaper(3 hp,IMO absolute minimum).Good luck,BW


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> The easiest way to do that is to make a master pattern out of a 3/4" substrate. It can be plywood, solid wood, or MDF. That pattern is your exact shape. Check your pattern if used many times, as the edge has to be smooth, no bumps, and no indenture from the router bearing.
> 
> Take your rectangles and use double sided tape, or hot glue to fix the rectangle to the pattern. The overhang on the edges should be within 1/4". So, your rough cut with the jig saw, or a band saw doesn't have to be that exact, but close.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about putting a dowel rod/pin in the "template" so that the "rectangles" could be affixed to the template. The holes for the skateboard deck are already drilled prior to shaping.

Last night I continued again trying the jigsaw, belt sander, hand routing and came out 3/6 sucess. I do have a few questions though.

When using a router, is there a certain way you cant go with the router. For instance counter clockwise around the piece vs clockwise? I was noticing sometimes the layers would split and tear up. Not sure what was causing this. I did however come out with 3 beautiful decks.



BWSMITH, to answer your questions... My g.parents passed away and left me money to do something with. I have invested a large portion into this skateboarding manufacturing. I have no problems producing about 80 decks in 8 hours. It's just cutting them out and routing that I'm having difficulty with. Yes, that press has concrete, but it's also coated in a special coating to dampen the force. Also, it may look easy to build a deck, but you have to spend about 14k to buy the wood to do it. No place will sell you less than 1000 boards worth of wood. If they do, they will charge an arm and a leg. 

I do have the oppurtunity to buy a wood shaper for 175$ but i'm not sure if thats worth it, or if I should continue doing it the way I made them last night?


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Not trying to get all gore'y....just a general headsup.

As equip gets bigger...router vs sm shaper vs large shaper...so should your seriousness WRT safety.Not that you can't get hurt with say a router.Its just that bigger equip is so much more...oh whats the word?Violent by nature.Their tooling is bigger,the machine is bigger.Its that whole,"we ain't in Kansas anymore" thing.So in your biz plan....just please make a serious effort to enhance safety.All gaurds,all the time.

If possible,talk with some folks who've been down the rd before on not only sktbds...but also small biz start-ups.be prepared...theres lots of folks that have agenda's(try to sell you a process or tooling)...and also be aware that not evryone makes it in whatevr their endeavor,so they may have a chip on shoulder or axe to grind.

Google conventional milling(cutting) vs climb cutting.Theres times that both are gonna be on the menu.You need a thorough understanding of the forces involved and how that impacts safety.

Keep us posted and we like pictures.BW


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh yeah...get some more posting done and you can PM(private message require 25 posts)me...or others here on your wood procurement.Theres some pretty "hooked up" folks on this site....just sayin.BW


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Jusk askin'*

Wonder how many skate boards are done on a CNC? 
Possibly contract out the shaping then do the round overs yourself? Or get a CNC of you own? ....:blink: bill




At 3:00 in the video above it shows the use of a shaper with a rub collar and a template used to final shape the deck, one at a time. This is a simple shaper operation and can be done with a 3HP shaper...around $1000 from Grizzly. You must make a smooth template to get good results.
Nothing very fancy or sophisticated here. I'd look into getting one.
I'd also look into an edge sander also from Grizzly...about $700 for the cheaper one. The oscillating one is more...
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Oscillating-Edge-Sander-2-HP/G0563


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

I tried to outsource the first set of boards I had to a CNC shop. They wanted to charge me 30-40$ to cut it out A DECK. No rounded over edge, just to drill the 8 holes, and to 'rough' cut it. When I brought them 14 decks I had thought when he said, "yeah it would be $40" that would be for all of them. Which was a little high IMO, but I was okay with it. I ended up only paying $40 due to his miscommunication. Was almost charged $480 because a few decks were "tear outs".

So outsourcing doesnt seem like it will work for me, although I wish it would.


*Woodnthings*, I've actually got an edge sander... its a 6 x 48 belt sander that works great for that!!

Now for the template, would I just use another skateboard deck that has not been routed yet, so that it has a square edge, and find a way to fix it to the bolt holes in the deck ill be cutting out? I could most likely use dowel rods to fit inside the holes much like they used in that video, right?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The video shows a 2 handled template with location rods that push into the holes for the trucks. Down pressure and inward pressure keeps the template against the rub collar. The cutter just needs to be high and wide enough to remove the material and be flush with the template. There is no guard on the cutter, but I would have one and the shirt sleeves are too long for my safety requirements.

The whole process took less than 1 minute. You just need to drill your truck holes accurately and rough saw the stacked pieces to within 2.5 mm if I recall the video correctly. Use a smooth deck without the round over for a template.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

I have found a wood shaper locally for $175. However, it doesn't come with any cutters. I'll have to discuss with somebody on how to get the collar to match with my template. 

I do however need to order a drum sander. I've been doing everything by hand (orbital sander) for finishing. I hear with the drum sander (bag sander) that it doesnt change the routed edge, but makes it perfectly smooth and more chip resistant (after also using the brush sander side)... I've come to a dilemma. Woodtek drum sander, or Grizzly? Woodtek is more $$ but does the old saying of "You get what you pay for" chime relevant here?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*shaper for $175?*

What brand, what HP any photos? Old Craftsman with a 1/2" spindle? 

Shapers are a breed unto themselves and require some serious safety practices and learning curve to be safe. Some are reversible unlike a table mounted router, so feed direction and cutter direction/orientation is critical. Other wise you can launch your workpiece and drag your hand into the cutters. Always feed "against the cutter rotation" never with it. The cutter should be pressing the work into the fence when it is operating, never pulling it away from the fence.
For example CCW cutter the feed will be from the right to left.
In your case you will have a rub collar which will act as a depth stop. 

I highly recommend a mentor or taking a course in shaper operation unless you are very familiar with a table mounted router.


http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drum-Flap-Sander/G8749
As far as a drum sander, assuming you mean vertical like a horizontal edge sander, that's the only drum sander that will work on curved surfaces like skateboard decks. See link above. You can get a drum that uses air to inflate it in various diameters rather than the long belt, but the long belt dissipates the heat far better and will avoid burning the work. 
You could use a drum that's horizontal and just free hand the work over top of it. Daren made his own, but it's a dimensional thickness sander if I recall. Dust collection will be a huge issue without serious dust collection right at the source. You don't want to be "finishing" anywhere in the same Zipcode as your drum sander.
Sounds like you've got some decisions to make here....  bill


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## clampman (Oct 20, 2006)

Lots of good posts here. A shaper would be the way to go for this if you plan on making a lot of them. However, to get good, safe tooling you should get a shaper with a 1 1/4" spindle diameter. Schmidt makes a lockedge cutter head with large rub collar for shapers, but you are talking some money. I can't remember what I paid for mine but I think it was around 400 bucks each.

Either Whiteside (North Carolina) or Velepec (New Jersey) make great router bits and one, or both, make a flush cutting pattern bit (bearing on top) with a 1 1/8" cutting diameter and 1 1/4" cutting flute length (1/2" shank of course).

The bearing is held in place with a shaft collar so it is removable. Since the shaft size is a standard 1/2", it would be possible to double up on the bearings for more surface area - but there has to be plenty of shaft left in the router collet. You really would not even need the shaft collar (which is about the same thickness as the bearing) if you bottomed out the upper bearing on the router collet. There may even be room to still use the shaft colar too. Either way, that is the bit I would use if I were doing your job with a router. 

Woodnthings brought up a good point about clothing. It causes a lot of bad accidents. 

Good luck with your project.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

He said the spindle is 1/2". HE also said that's pretty standard for wood shapers. I am having him call me back to tell me what brand the shaper is. I agree that using a wood shaper is probably going to be the best route for making these. Without one I feel I would be having problems making them with a router, and trying to find the right size for the bit.

I would like to work safely with this machine, are there any tips to being safe? I'm pretty safe 100% of the time, but have no experience with a shaper... just routers.. and many common woodworking tools.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

ok i can either get a NAtional Industrial wood shaper with 1/2" shank for $175
or a Craftsman (older) 1/2" shank for $60. He says its a hobby one with 1/2HP.

will the 1/2 hp work???


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

To begin with,buying quality "used" equip at appropriate prices accomplishes a few things.

>First its a whole lot cheaper,duh

>It allows you to test certain ideas WRT manufacturing.IOWs in an R&D application....alot of times you'll be runnin by the seat of your pants.So buying a "test monkey" pc of equip,on the cheap...."can" pay certain benny's in a....is this idea gonna work sort of way.Realizing that the investment was sm enough that a future upgrade to a badder azz($$) pc of equip can be reliant on/how the biz evolves.Another way of sayin that is,letting the workload dictate the level of $$ invested in equip.

>If the used purchase price and overall desirabilty of,in this case a shaper.....is inline with what other,similar machines are going for....you can use it for awhile and then sell it.BUT,if the pce is cheap enough you may(depending on workload)be better off keeping it as a backup.Once a pce of equip "depreciates" and the price sort of normalizes.....it'll sell for the same thing 6 months or 6 years down the rd.

Shapers are in that class of equip(like milling machines)where the purchase price "may" not represent total cost incured.Its on a case by case situation though.The initial cost of the shaper is,lets say 500.In alot of cases this is nuthin compared to the tooling required.BUT,sometimes tooling is VERY specific in that you're only setting it up to do one or two opperations........Now,regarding 1/2" drive shapers.Its a "tooling" thing.Is it availible in that size?At what cost?How does upgrading tooling affect this size drive?BW


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

jason7 said:


> ok i can either get a NAtional Industrial wood shaper with 1/2" shank for $175
> or a Craftsman (older) 1/2" shank for $60. He says its a hobby one with 1/2HP.
> 
> will the 1/2 hp work???




For what you are doing, get a bigger spindle. All it takes is one big bang, to bend a 1/2" spindle. Presentation is everything, when running a shaper. For running production, go bigger.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

one big bang? I dont understand.

Ill be using a 'live collar' flush with the table that is the same thickness as my template. Then ill have the work pieces above that (bolted to the template) and hopefully find a 2-3" tall straight cutter.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

jason7 said:


> one big bang? I dont understand.
> 
> Ill be using a 'live collar' flush with the table that is the same thickness as my template. Then ill have the work pieces above that (bolted to the template) and hopefully find a 2-3" tall straight cutter.


The problem is the 1/2" bore and the power it takes to drive a taller cutter on a 1/2" bore shaper. Those smallest size shapers are not really meant for the larger/taller cutters. I can't find a 2" tall cutter with a 1/2" bore, but here's a 3/4" bore: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Shaper-Cutter-2-Rabbeting-3-4-Bore/C2036 I'm sure you can find bushings, but then the power factor enters...I donno?
Have you purchased the shaper you mentioned yet?


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

not the 1hp one.... i bought the $50 one though.:huh:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

You'll probably find that a 1/2", 1/2HP shaper is too small. For edge work, a good sized router will outperform that small shaper. Tooling will likely be less expensive. I would prefer the faster speed of a router over a shaper for edge work.

Moving up to a shaper with the option of multiple spindle sizes of 3/4" and larger would be a substantial investment.










 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the $50.00 one ?*

How about a brand name, a description, a HP rating? a spindle size? Not enough info to be useful with just"the $50.00 one"
Here's a thread with links on the Craftsman 1/2" shaper. I have one, it was a gift. I've used it just a few times, but it's smooth running. I put a 1 HP motor on it. 
I prefer to use my router table over the shaper because as suggested the cutters are expensive and the router bits are cheaper and more available.
In your case it would become a dedicated tool for making the skateboards so you'll only need the 2" tall cutter. I would not invest any more money if it's the one I referred to above. But I don't know if it is at this point. 
Looks like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-CRAFTSMAN-SHAPER-/270807822120
Another thread: http://woodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?53877-Craftsman-shaper-model-113.23940&


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

yes looks like the first link. All i need is a 2" cutter. I couldnt find any bits for a router that would give me 3/4" above the table that my template could rub on.. much like a live collar can with a shaper.

I tried using various bits with a router, but nothing was ever tall enough


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## 3fingersdown7togo (Nov 21, 2011)

may be too late, but I would draw up the plans to exact dimensions and have someone CNC me up a plastic/teflon/etc master (i would not use mdf or any other wood, plastic will last much longer).

then you can rough cut with bandsaw and use the plastic template as a guide to flush cut with router table/by hand as others have said.


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## aardvark (Sep 29, 2011)

I had one done out of Lexan, using a cnc and a 5" thick block to start, and we considered doing molds and using a carbonate with a steel spine in it. The original cost us nearly $600,oo to get machined out and without the steel , it was too flexible and also quite heavy. Intent was to make one that was unbreakable. We succeeded there.
We parked a car on it for 24 hours and the thing sprung right back (w/o steel)

In wood I would think the biggest issue would be to get the multiple layering of plywoods glued and pressed into shape and stable for long term abuse. The center of the boards are not flat, and the sides have some curve up on them as well. The edge rounding and hole drilling seems like the lesser issue.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Plywood or wood, or composite templates (patterns) that are used with a router with a bearing, can have a much extended life by just laminating the edge with HPL (a Formica type laminate).












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*not enough shaper...*



jason7 said:


> yes looks like the first link. All i need is a 2" cutter. I couldnt find any bits for a router that would give me 3/4" above the table that my template could rub on.. much like a live collar can with a shaper.
> 
> I tried using various bits with a router, but nothing was ever tall enough


This is his shaper with a 1/2" spindle AFAICT:
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=5488

You can make a template out Graham crackers or Unobtainium, it won't matter if the shaper is the weak link and you can't get a tall enough cutter in the 1/2" size. 
This sounds like a one person operation with limited production, AFAICT, so some bulletproof template won't really matter since it won't wear out...if it can't be used. The OP may have taken a walk on this idea since there's no response in 10 days.

jason7
How about posting back in here and let us know where you are in the whole process?  bill


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

3fingersdown7togo said:


> may be too late, but I would draw up the plans to exact dimensions and have someone CNC me up a plastic/teflon/etc master (i would not use mdf or any other wood, plastic will last much longer).
> 
> then you can rough cut with bandsaw and use the plastic template as a guide to flush cut with router table/by hand as others have said.


Yes that is what I'm hoping to do, but I'm not sure how to measure the deck of an already finished board, to give measurements to a cnc guy (such as the radial of the nose and tail)



cabinetman said:


> Plywood or wood, or composite templates (patterns) that are used with a router with a bearing, can have a much extended life by just laminating the edge with HPL (a Formica type laminate).


That sounds like a great idea!!



aardvark said:


> I had one done out of Lexan, using a cnc and a 5" thick block to start, and we considered doing molds and using a carbonate with a steel spine in it. The original cost us nearly $600,oo to get machined out and without the steel , it was too flexible and also quite heavy. Intent was to make one that was unbreakable. We succeeded there.
> We parked a car on it for 24 hours and the thing sprung right back (w/o steel)
> 
> In wood I would think the biggest issue would be to get the multiple layering of plywoods glued and pressed into shape and stable for long term abuse. The center of the boards are not flat, and the sides have some curve up on them as well. The edge rounding and hole drilling seems like the lesser issue.


 

The issues with getting the plys pressed into shape isn't hard for me. I've got that part of the problem mastered. Now is just the cutting/shaping of the finished product.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Look at 2:55 minutes in*

It shows the rub collar and shaper cutter. The rub collar is on top of the cutter and the pattern/template is on top of the work piece. As he pushes the template against the collar he also pushes down on the ends tipping the work so it stays vertical to the cutter. This allows the use of a 1" tall cutter, so you don't really need a 2" cutter ..... You may be in luck with your 1/2" Craftsman shaper after all.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

then what is the thing they have on top of the cutter in the video? Ive never seen that


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

jason7 said:


> then what is the thing they have on top of the cutter in the video? Ive never seen that





woodnthings said:


> It shows the rub collar and shaper cutter. *The rub collar is on top of the cutter* and the pattern/template is on top of the work piece. As he pushes the template against the collar he also pushes down on the ends tipping the work so it stays vertical to the cutter. This allows the use of a 1" tall cutter, so you don't really need a 2" cutter ..... You may be in luck with your 1/2" Craftsman shaper after all.
> 
> Skateboard - How its made - YouTube



You had your answer about 1 year ago. What happened to you for a year?


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

sadly ive been out of cash and havent been able to continue. however, ive been able to net more cash and i can finally move on and finalize all this. the only thing that remains is making a template for the shape, and figuring this cutter out.

i didnt see the answer for what they call the thing on top of the cutter

if its a rub collar, then i havent seen any that look similar


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

I just always see the "bearing" looking ones that are very small


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jason7 said:


> sadly ive been out of cash and havent been able to continue.


It doesn't cost anything to stay in touch.









 







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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

very true. i plan on being a regular on here. i really enjoy woodworking. always have.. even way back in HS and JHS i loved woodshop.


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

bump


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## CharlieC (Sep 18, 2012)

PLEASE be very careful working with shapers and having little to no experience....shapers and table saws are the two most accident prone machines in any shop I know of...I have seen a lot of fingers fly from both over the years....SERIOUS SAFETY is required....without some type of feeder mechanism all it takes is one wrong move and the shaper will take your work peice and possibly your hand/arm and do unspeakable things to them. Rub collars, bearings, blade safety disks can be found at many places....one of my favorite classical shaper comapines is weaver....two Mininite brothers build some awesome durable shapers and accesories here is the link...

www.*weaver*-sales.com I have dealt with them for years and always been treated as if I was there only customer....great company....you can find some of their used machines on auction sites and used machinery sites such as www.exfactory.com

good luck


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

so what parts should i get? I like whats in that video at 3 minutes

my craftsman shaper is a 113.12161 model


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## jason7 (May 5, 2011)

cananyone provide me what i need to make this work? I've been trying to figure out how to raise the cutter on the table, but can't figure it out. Going to find a pdf of the manual hopefully!... that is if it's not too old of a machine haha. 

If anyone can provide me a 'shopping list' haha... i'd be more than thankful!

Also, my shaper only has the wooden rail that the workpiece would ride against while using the shaper, but no guards or anything. I would like to hear some ideas on guards and how to build a good one. I plan on doing the exact setup that's in the video. Ill be making the template that will bolt in from the top into the predilled holes of the work piece ill be doing.


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