# Sherwin Williams Conversion Varnish ..Issues



## CharlesNeil

I have now tried to use the SW conversion Varnish 3 times. Actually I have had other’s who tried it and all have had the same issue as I did. It has a re-coat window of unknown time length, meaning it will lift. Which looks like a curdled up prune and the finish separates from the surface. Their data sheets do not address this in any way , but It has never failed.We have tried to do 3 coats in one day , wait 24 hours between, 8 hours , and 48 hours, irrespective it will lift in spots. In all cases we have had to strip and use another finish

I now have 2 9’ x 6’ sections of a conference table we wil have to strip and start over, the guy has already stripped it 2 x times and tried to get it, he brought it to me to spray a final coat, it had set for over 48 hours, one coat and it lifted.

In My professional opinion, the product should be avoided .I will also state we had the SW rep out, and what we got was an amazing song and dance. They had no clue and offered no assistance.

Not a rant .. just a heads up .


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## Steve Neul

Every finish has it's quirks. I'm sure if you kept at it you would figure out how to make it work. I haven't personally used it so I can't really help any. Randy would be the one with experience with it and he's not here as much as he used to.


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## CharlesNeil

Steve,
I have tried and tried,Same issue, you get to the last coat, you even remotely wet it enough to get a good flow out and it lifts, but just in spots, I have tried it thinned with Butyl Acetate , unthinned, same S%$# different day. Gemini the same. I used to use these products, on everything. Not any more, but it is only the conversion Varnishes. A reformulation possibly, I know Gemini's is .

I have used a power mixer to make sure the Catalyst is well mixed and let it sit for osmosis absorption, I have been finishing for over 40 years, never had issues like this.


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## Steve Neul

It may be the conversion varnish is made by Gemini. Randy swears Sherwin Williams doesn't buy any products from Gemini but when Gemini had a plant in Dallas I saw them putting Sherwin Williams labels on cans in their warehouse. 

A conversion varnish is one product I haven't seen the need to use so I haven't used any brand of it. When the time comes I probably will use Mohawks. I have an outlet near me and it's a lot cheaper than other brands of conversion varnish I've seen.


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## CharlesNeil

I love Mohawk, never had an issue, totally agree. Gemini and SW have an issue with the CV, they just dont seem to be willing to own up to it. That bothers me ALOT .

The SW rep came out when it happened the first time ( and last for me) . this time and the second I was trying to bails another professional guy out , we had to strip it all. 

I happened to have a finishing class going on at the time, the project i had was a 12'x 10 ' walnut top , it was setting just outside my spray booth because it was too big to get in the booth. He told me it was because I didnt spray it in a "controlled Environment" , Then he told me it was because I used a compressed air spray gun, and had water, I will not elaborate but I have refrigerated driers , and a really nice filtration system on my compressed air. What he didnt know was I had sprayed it with a Turbine system. He left in short order. Just FYI .

Sorry folks, Im mad


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## Steve Neul

I've never had anyone from Sherwin Williams willing to come to my shop. The only paint rep ever to come to my shop was from Star Finishing Products.

Maybe it's because I'm in a dryer climate but I don't have any kind of dryers or filters at all on my air. I do have the plumbing going up about six feet and down before going into my shop. I drain the tank daily and in damp weather drain it several times a day. The only problem I've ever had with compressed air was with a sears portable compressor that had defective oil rings and was putting oil in the air. It wasn't enough to to cause the finish to lift but on a finish like a table top that had multiple coats would make the finish cloudy.


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## CharlesNeil

Steve , guys like us understand , finish manufactures mostly under stand how to fill a can. We are the guys who have to sort it out. If it was easy every one would be able to do it. 

You provide good sound advice here, well done. Your experience shows .


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## Leo G

What you are experiencing is called wrinkling. It is due to the acid catalyst attacking the previous layer.

I don't have any direct experience with SW except that I use ML Campbell and that is part of the parent company of SW.

I had been using MagnaKlear, which is a pre catalyzed conversion product for 3 years. Stuff was great. Great hang, no window, spray it blindfolded and it comes out like glass. It had always come with a use within 120 day sticker. One day I got a can with a use within 60 day sticker. I asked what's up with that. They just told me that they noticed the product was darkening in the can making the water white description void. So they changed the product life.

Well I'm pretty sure they changed the formula. Because since that sticker changed I've had wrinkling problems and window problem. I got one of the head guys to come down from Canada and watch me spray and the problem happened right in front of them. They took it back. Said they couldn't reproduce the problem and it had to be me. So the previous 3 years of fantastic success meant nothing, the 60 day stickers meant nothing, them watching me do everything by the book meant nothing. Had to be me.

I stopped using the product then and there. Problem solved.


I do use Krystal which is a post cat conversion varnish. I rarely have problems. No wrinkling yet.


Sanding to hard/deep can cause problems. You might get into finish that isn't cured enough and causes the wrinkle. What is the exact finishing schedule that you use.


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## Al B Thayer

Hey Charles
Why don't you grace the forum more often? Then Steve wouldn't have to beat his head against the wall trying to talk sense into these guys. 

In my short spray finish life, Mohawk rocks. With one hand tied behind your back. 

Come on in and lets talk non brand finishes and hand rubbed beauty.

Al B Thayer


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## Steve Neul

If the acid catalyst is attacking the previous layer it sounds like it needs to be recoated quicker. It may have a shorter recoat window than the directions say.


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## Steve Neul

Al B Thayer said:


> Hey Charles
> Why don't you grace the forum more often? Then Steve wouldn't have to beat his head against the wall trying to talk sense into these guys.
> 
> In my short spray finish life, Mohawk rocks. With one hand tied behind your back.
> 
> Come on in and lets talk non brand finishes and hand rubbed beauty.
> 
> Al B Thayer


Maybe we don't like motor oil finishes. :laughing:


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## CharlesNeil

Leo , exactly, you need to stand on your left foot, with your right hand index finger in your left ear. 

REALLY .. 

Here is the deal , solvent finish manufactures are struggling at the speed of sound to comply with all the new VOC regulations, solvent means Oils, lacquers, varnishes, ETC. They are changing formulas to be VOC compliant then get it in a can and sell it. They really have no clue how it will work, HOW DO I KNOW , because Im the guy alot of retailers ask to test the stuff.Most fail.


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## CharlesNeil

Al B , because if Steve answered , why should I, hey I make a living doing woodworking and finishing, puter time is "down Time".Steve is doing fine .

I also see Howard out here, he is pretty sharp as well , and Cabinetman. 

you guys are in good hands, .


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## Steve Neul

CharlesNeil said:


> Al B , because if Steve answered , why should I, hey I make a living doing woodworking and finishing, puter time is "down Time".Steve is doing fine .
> 
> I also see Howard out here, he is pretty sharp as well , and Cabinetman.
> 
> you guys are in good hands, .


Well, Cabinetman dies last year and I'm trying to make a living too.


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## CharlesNeil

Steve I knew that about Cabinetman, my point was this forum has had and still does have enough talent, and good ones. 

I will be glad to answer and help, but you do a really good service, I hope the members recognize that .

I dont want to step on toes.


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## Steve Neul

CharlesNeil said:


> Steve I knew that about Cabinetman, my point was this forum has had and still does have enough talent, and good ones.
> 
> I will be glad to answer and help, but you do a really good service, I hope the members recognize that .
> 
> I dont want to step on toes.


You wouldn't step on my toes. Everybody has different ways of doing everything. What might work for me wouldn't work so good for someone else.


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## Rebelwork

I was going to try SW conversion varnish but was told to stick with the T 77 line up. SW conversion varnish takes a lil more than pulling out the paint gun. So unless I actually set up a paint booth i wont use it.

Randy is a good guy. He's probably back up in the shop like me.


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## CharlesNeil

its Sunday morning 11am, Tops are stripped and redyed, time for some top coat.. Not how 
i planned to spend by Sunday... But disaster is avoided, and the guy will be able to make his delivery 

What a PITA


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## RandyReed

CharlesNeil said:


> I have now tried to use the SW conversion Varnish 3 times. Actually I have had other’s who tried it and all have had the same issue as I did. It has a re-coat window of unknown time length, meaning it will lift. Which looks like a curdled up prune and the finish separates from the surface. Their data sheets do not address this in any way , but It has never failed.We have tried to do 3 coats in one day , wait 24 hours between, 8 hours , and 48 hours, irrespective it will lift in spots. In all cases we have had to strip and use another finish
> 
> I now have 2 9’ x 6’ sections of a conference table we wil have to strip and start over, the guy has already stripped it 2 x times and tried to get it, he brought it to me to spray a final coat, it had set for over 48 hours, one coat and it lifted.
> 
> In My professional opinion, the product should be avoided .I will also state we had the SW rep out, and what we got was an amazing song and dance. They had no clue and offered no assistance.
> 
> Not a rant .. just a heads up .


LOL. Well, lets see......
Which CV are you using? What catalyst? What ratio? What are you putting it over, or whats your finishing schedule? 

Ive never had a problem with Sherwin Williams CV, in fact, I think its one of SW's best finishes. As far as finishing window, I have recoated in 4 hours, and I have waited over the weekend to recoat and I have had no issues what so ever.


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## RandyReed

Steve Neul said:


> If the acid catalyst is attacking the previous layer it sounds like it needs to be recoated quicker. It may have a shorter recoat window than the directions say.


If you use a sealer under the CV, it has to be catalyzed as well or it will wrinkle. 
I will wait and see what Charles's finishing schedule is and see if I can fix his problem.


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## Rick Mosher

I don't use CV on anything anymore. Used SW CV many years professionally as well as most other brands made at one time or another. IMO it is not a good finish for conference tables. I used 2K urethane on open pore tables and a polyester sealer with a 2K topcoat on closed pore and high gloss tables. Now I would use a WB UV cured finish as long as it would fit in our Superfici robot. 

When I was using CV, wrinkling usually happened if the previous coat was not catalyzed properly or if there was a really strong solvent (like MAK) in the topcoat that was sprayed the same day. 

Randy, originally back when CV first came out we used un-catalyzed vinyl sealer all the time. The acid in the CV cured the sealer as well. They went with catalyzed sealer because their vinyl sealer was really crappy to sand without catalyst. Then companies were sanding the catalyzed sealer on Friday, going home for the week end and spraying on Monday without re-scuffing and having adhesion and wrinkling issues. 

All high tech finishes are really touchy. If you do something wrong it WILL bite you on the a** every time. Oh for the good old days of nitro lacquer.


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## RandyReed

Rick Mosher said:


> Randy, originally back when CV first came out we used un-catalyzed vinyl sealer all the time. The acid in the CV cured the sealer as well. They went with catalyzed sealer because their vinyl sealer was really crappy to sand without catalyst. Then companies were sanding the catalyzed sealer on Friday, going home for the week end and spraying on Monday without re-scuffing and having adhesion and wrinkling issues.
> 
> All high tech finishes are really touchy. If you do something wrong it WILL bite you on the a** every time. Oh for the good old days of nitro lacquer.


Yes, it depends on what you use under the CV. However, When using SW CV, we recommend to Catalyze the sealer (whether its a Varnish or Vinyl, etc) with the appropriate catalyst for that product. Your basically applying a "harder finish or a softer finish". Eventually, the acid will go thropugh to the non catalyzed clear coat and will wrinkle the entire finish. It will also wrinkle if you use a glaze under the CV and the glaze has not dried completely. You can also over catalyze the CV and cause wrinkling and fisheyes.

With any finish, you should never sand and let it sit for over 8 hours. If you do, you need to resand (scuff sand) before applying another finish. Moisture, etc will absorb into the already sanded finish/wood and cause adhesion problems as you pointed out.


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## Rick Mosher

Don't forget shattering.... just sayin :thumbsup:


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## RandyReed

Rick Mosher said:


> Don't forget shattering.... just sayin :thumbsup:


Alot of times its what happens underneath that is the problem. 

Im actually doing 2 sample kitchen cabinet doors today for a customer. 1 red color and 1 green color with sand thru areas followed by a glaze, dry brush, cowtail and a weak spatter, then I will apply 2 coats of SW V84F83 DRE CV.......no problem. :thumbsup:


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## CharlesNeil

In My case it happened over a year ago, in this case it was actually 2 guys , within the same week, one about 75 miles north of me, I had him strip the top and use a another finish, he did not use a sealer, in my case I did not use a sealer. In the case of the big conference table which the guy brought here, SW mixed him a dye stain, then had him put a "spit" coat , which they mixed for him over that then a wiping stain. He said all that dried over night, then he did 2 coats with in about 4 hours apart and no issue. Next morning he did the 3rd and it lifted.. 

He stripped it and called me, I told him to not use the CV, and to skip the "spit" coat. and use another finish, he didn't . But he did skip the Spit coat. Dyed it , stained it let that dry over night, then got 2 coats of CV on the tops. He then calls and says he is having issues getting the finish to lay out smooth, could he bring them here. I agreed.

We scuffed the top with 320, cleaned it down, I mixed the CV ,about 45 min previous, don't recall which catalyst it had by number, but I did check the date on the products and confirmed the catalyst number was correct . I thinned it some, with butyl acetate also from SW . We shot the first top, it looked fine, 5 min later it started lifting in sporadic areas. 

We let it set over night, Stripped it down yesterday morning, redyed, restained, turned the heat up to about 90 in the booths, when the stain was good and dry , We shot it with some SW Pre-Cat lacquer, let it dry about 2 hours, a light scuff, a second heavier coat was shot. We were done by about 2pm, I let it dry with heat at 80 until 3am this morning, came in scuffed it , cleaned it and shot the final coat.
They look great. 
He is picking them up at 3pm , which I have told him is just too quick, the finish really needs to dry more, he said he had no choice. So as we speak they are drying with heat on ( down draft booths). SO I have done all I know for the guy.

I agree Rick the 2k urethane's are nice , I have also been using the Waterbase CV, they have a new one a good friend and an excellent finishes has been trying from a company called Centurion , He has done all sorts of test and chemical test on it and really likes it, I have some on order as well to test , so we will see.


My issue here is I have used both Gemini and SW CV for years, and no issues, now all of a sudden with in the last year we have had issues with both. 
I am still of the opinion that they have altered the formulas utilizing VOC exempt solvents, I know Gemini did a total reformulation on both the CV and the catalyst. I am not saying one cannot "learn " to use it . I AM saying it has a recoat window and its an issue, and they make no reference to it in any of their data sheets. I have dealt with numerous finishes over the years in both the automotive and the wood industry that had re-coat windows, but the manufactures warned you and gave you some guide lines. 
My other issue is the "spit" coat which I think was thinned Vinyl sealer should have been catalyzed , I totally agree, SO WHY didn't the guy who sold it know that. 

Me ,being me I deal with new folks and beginners everyday, They are at the total mercy of folks selling these products. They should be trained ,and know how the products work, or at least have the data sheets tell us. 

In any case hopefully the Pre-cat finish will dry well enough, and the guy makes his delivery, and its warm enough they can open some windows, ( I Hope). Done all I can here.

BTW Randy, again dont recall the numbers, this one used 3 oz of cat to a gallon .


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## Rick Mosher

RandyReed said:


> then I will apply 2 coats of SW V84F83 DRE CV.......no problem. :thumbsup:


Dull rubbed! Anyone can spray DRE. We've got 3 big jobs going at once, Apple's new corporate HQ in CA. water based UV cured whitewash on Alpi veneer, a commercial job with $12 million worth of High gloss buffed panels and a public museum where most of the job is bleached mahogany, polyester sealer and 70% sheen off the gun. 

We are buying a new buffing machine just to handle all the buffed panels. I am glad I am retiring in June.


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## RandyReed

Hard to say if I dont know what you or the others used.........

Spit coat? Is that a washcoat? You do not have to catalyze a washcoat. SW suggests that if you use a vinyl sealer under any CV, you must catalyze it. Im just stating that so anyone reading this knows to do so.

In your case, if the top was stripped and prepped properly, there should be no issue. All you did was strip, shoot a dye stain, and then 2 coats of CV? Im curious to know what CV and catalyst you used.

Here in the lab I use these ALOT. It is a Water White Conversion Varnish, and I just finished applying the DRE just now and will apply my last coat around 2pm. I always recommend these CV finishes to all my customers:
Gloss ....................................V84V80
Bright Rubbed Effect ............V84F81
Medium Rubbed Effect .........V84F82
Dull Rubbed Effect ...............V84F83
Catalyst .................................V66V21 

*RATIO*:
1 part Conversion Varnish
3% Catalyst V66V21
5% Butyl Acetate R6K18 

*Drying* (77°F, 50% RH):
To Touch: 10-15 minutes
To Handle: 15-30 minutes
To Sand: 30-60 minutes
To Recoat: 30-60 minutes

Coating must be applied and dried at a temperature of 70°F or higher to ensure acceptable coating properties. Pot life is 24 hours after mixing. Maximum dry film thickness of the system must not exceed 4 mils because heavier films may cause *cracking*. Do not use over conventional nitrocellulose lacquer sealers. 

If I need to use a sealer, I use this:
T67F3 with V66V26 @ 3% added to the sealer.

I have used the above products for all my kitchen cabinet and bathroom vanity projects and I have never had a problem. Just make sure that your wipe stains and glazes are dry before applying the CV. 

I also think the 2k urethane's are great, but I've never had a problem with the CV, and in my opinion, the CV sands better.


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## CharlesNeil

Randy , I just went and looked, the wash coat is a SW product it says its a Vinyl sealer.

The guy took all the CV cans with him yesterday, so I am just not sure.


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## RandyReed

Rick Mosher said:


> Dull rubbed! Anyone can spray DRE.


Evidently, not everyone. :laughing:


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## RandyReed

CharlesNeil said:


> Randy , I just went and looked, the wash coat is a SW product it says its a Vinyl sealer.
> 
> The guy took all the CV cans with him yesterday, so I am just not sure.


Vinyl Sealer? Thats why it would wrinkle. Thats not a washcoat, that is sealer, and you must catalyze the sealer if used under a CV. If SW gives you a washcoat, it should say "washcoat" on the container. More than likely that container has a number on it like T67F3, F5, F6, F7, or F8. 

T67F3 is the best, and T67F6 is a fast dry.

A washcoat is nothing but a thinned down sealer. Thats what I use in the lab. The sealer I listed above, T67F3, is a 24% solids high build sealer. You can make a washcoat by simply reducing with R7K305 1:1 (HAPS free thinner), mix well and apply. I would go out on a limb and tell you that anything over 12% solids needs to be catalyzed. Anything under 12% solids does not.

A SW line item washcoat is a T69CH24. This is a 10.3% solids washcoat formula and is safe to use without a catalyst under a CV system.


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## CharlesNeil

Randy, 

It's the only thing the guy left it says 

Sher-wood vinyl Sealer

Wash Coat 1 to 2 
T67XXC3218- 5232

Again in my case and the other guys case, no sealer was used .


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## RandyReed

CharlesNeil said:


> Randy,
> 
> It's the only thing the guy left it says
> 
> Sher-wood vinyl Sealer
> 
> Wash Coat 1 to 2
> T67XXC3218- 5232
> 
> Again in my case and the other guys case, no sealer was used .


Its hard for me to say what went wrong because I do not know what you guys used, nor the catalyst that was used when the CV was used. Each product has its own catalyst and mixing ratio.

If you use the above water white CV versions that I listed and follow the ratio's that I listed, you will not have a problem. This is the best CV that SW has. We also have a 3 sheen, which is V84FH161, and the ratio is the same as above.

That washcoat is made at a plant because of the number. If you was to go to the commercial store, the number is T69CH24. Instead, I would suggest just buying the T67F3 and reduce it 1:1 for a 12% solid, or 1:2 for a 6% solid. You could use that around the shop as needed as a "mix how you need it" type of thing. For instance, somewhere down the line you may need an 18% washcoat, so then just mix it 2:1 with thinner.


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## CharlesNeil

Thanks Randy, all good information

I am, looking forward to testing the new Waterbase products.Waterbase has its own set of rules as well,and is something I have been involved in for years. However oddly enough they use many similar catalyst as solvent based products. 

I want to also state that any CV , solvent or waterbase is not a product you want to use with out proper safety equipment and ventilation , These are acid based catalyst and not intended for use in a home garage or basement ... BE CAREFUL ..


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## RandyReed

CharlesNeil said:


> Thanks Randy, all good information
> 
> I am, looking forward to testing the new Waterbase products.Waterbase has its own set of rules as well,and is something I have been involved in for years. However oddly enough they use many similar catalyst as solvent based products.
> 
> I want to also state that any CV , solvent or waterbase is not a product you want to use with out proper safety equipment and ventilation , These are acid based catalyst and not intended for use in a home garage or basement ... BE CAREFUL ..


True, handle with care.

I also want to point out, just so there is no confusion, that the CV numbers I listed above is not waterbase. It is "water white" which means it will not yellow over time. 

I actually tried to look up the number for the washcoat you gave me, T67XXC3218- 5232.....I can not find it. The "XX" means it was special made in a plant. I assume its either made in Roanoke or Richmond VA. If I find out any info on it later on I will post it here in this post.


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## CharlesNeil

its was Roanoke ..


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## RandyReed

CharlesNeil said:


> its was Roanoke ..


I figured it was 1 of the 2. :thumbsup:


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## positive woodworks

RandyReed said:


> Vinyl Sealer? Thats why it would wrinkle. Thats not a washcoat, that is sealer, and you must catalyze the sealer if used under a CV. If SW gives you a washcoat, it should say "washcoat" on the container. More than likely that container has a number on it like T67F3, F5, F6, F7, or F8.
> 
> T67F3 is the best, and T67F6 is a fast dry.
> 
> A washcoat is nothing but a thinned down sealer. Thats what I use in the lab. The sealer I listed above, T67F3, is a 24% solids high build sealer. You can make a washcoat by simply reducing with R7K305 1:1 (HAPS free thinner), mix well and apply. I would go out on a limb and tell you that anything over 12% solids needs to be catalyzed. Anything under 12% solids does not.
> 
> A SW line item washcoat is a T69CH24. This is a 10.3% solids washcoat formula and is safe to use without a catalyst under a CV system.


Hey bud, i know this is an older post, but i came across it looking for input on a good white wash system. I saw you found a method using SW cv. We havent done any white wash in years and when we did it was some benjamin moore wipe on ready mixed white pickling paint then we top coated with some WB minwax clear coat. It was a bit primitive but at the time it worked and looked great. Since then all we have been using is a lot of SW white pigmented CV (KEMVAR PLUS). We are about to take on a job to white wash / clear coat a lot of maple plywood panels and would like some input on a good CV system for this. Thanks!


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## ColorStylist

positive woodworks said:


> Hey bud, i know this is an older post, but i came across it looking for input on a good white wash system. I saw you found a method using SW cv. We havent done any white wash in years and when we did it was some benjamin moore wipe on ready mixed white pickling paint then we top coated with some WB minwax clear coat. It was a bit primitive but at the time it worked and looked great. Since then all we have been using is a lot of SW white pigmented CV (KEMVAR PLUS). We are about to take on a job to white wash / clear coat a lot of maple plywood panels and would like some input on a good CV system for this. Thanks!


For a white wash, you can simply take a white or slightly off-white latex paint, reduce it with water, and wipe it on and wipe the excess back off. 

You can also take Sherwin Williams P63 vinyl basecoat series (white is P63W9) and reduce it with R7K305 (Lacquer thinner) roughly 1 part White to 5 parts lacquer thinner and spray it on wet as you possibly can with out running it. If its not enough white wash when it dries, spray on another coat. You can use any P63 viynl basecoat in this series to tint each other with as you have these colors:

Black .................. P63B1 
Blue ..................P63L4 
Quinacridone Red ... P63R7 
Brite Yellow ................... P63Y10
Orange ............... P63E2 
Burnt Umber ......P63N5 
Red Oxide ..............P63R8 
Ferrite Yellow ................ P63Y11
Green ................. P63G3 
Scarlet ..............P63R6 
White ................... P63W9 

PDS located here:
https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=P63W9

Any of the above system will work under Sherwin Williams V84F series conversion varnish. I also suggest using the CV as a self seal system since its high in solids. If 2 coats isnt smooth enough for you, scuff sand with 240 grit real well and apply a 3rd coat. 

You have these gloss levels in this series of CV:

Gloss ...................................V84V80
Bright Rubbed Effect............V84F81
Medium Rubbed Effect ........V84F82
Dull Rubbed Effect...............V84F83
Catalyst ...............................V66V21
Custom Blend ….…….V84FX Series

PDS located here:
https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=V84F81


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## brushworkssd

*sw not on my list of vendors anymore conversion varnish issues*



CharlesNeil said:


> I have now tried to use the SW conversion Varnish 3 times. Actually I have had other’s who tried it and all have had the same issue as I did. It has a re-coat window of unknown time length, meaning it will lift. Which looks like a curdled up prune and the finish separates from the surface. Their data sheets do not address this in any way , but It has never failed.We have tried to do 3 coats in one day , wait 24 hours between, 8 hours , and 48 hours, irrespective it will lift in spots. In all cases we have had to strip and use another finish
> 
> I now have 2 9’ x 6’ sections of a conference table we wil have to strip and start over, the guy has already stripped it 2 x times and tried to get it, he brought it to me to spray a final coat, it had set for over 48 hours, one coat and it lifted.
> 
> In My professional opinion, the product should be avoided .I will also state we had the SW rep out, and what we got was an amazing song and dance. They had no clue and offered no assistance.
> 
> Not a rant .. just a heads up .


I too had this issue and my sw rep has told me three different things when it wrinkled up it was that i didnt catalyze the white vinyl sealer on the undercoating and that info was needlessly tossed to the wind as my problem after stripping the doors that had been affected to bare wood on the panels and styles if needed after i continued to fight the wrinklesl of the doors that had minimal amounts of wrinkling i thought i had them out the door only to have a call from the customer who had now waited about a month for us to correct it in the first place as they were out of the country when they tried to call and said the doors needed to again be corrected again and that they were blistering in the corners from the detail to the panel but not the styles after getting them from the customer i looked them over and called her again to be informed that it was my fault that it lifted as it didnt adhere because i had failed to clean the dust off appropriately which i found about as amusing as being raped by a group of skin heads. Now im out two strips on about 25 doors and drawer fronts now and after talking and thinking about it for a minute i came to the conclusion it must have been a bad batch or something as it didnt bond appropriately with what was now catalyzed white vinyl sealer and it lifted in spots up to an inch to 2 inches from the detail and the paenel even on the ones i had stripped, when i approached here i said i didnt strip them all the way done on some but it was only on ones that had like 1 to 2 inch wrinkles that i scraped and hit again and the doors looked great when i dropped them off but were attrocious now. after plugging this theory to my rep she once again has snubbed me and said that i must not have mixed the appropriate amount of the catalyst and that i was supposed to strip them before i event started to finsish them all to bare wood so that it would bond to the suvstrate from day one so again its my fault again the sds sheets said nothing nor did she about any if the items she had mentioned to me. These ass clowns cost me about 130 man hours now and she had told me nothing about any of this prior to the problems that occured nor did she offer anything to me to comp the labore for it other than 2 gals of each the vinyl sealer and then the varnish to correct it so now im out anothe 1700 in labor on top of the same amountin materials over the month trying to correct it in the first place along with an attitude from my rep to go with it. So know after all this im dropping the ****ty rep and store and ill order elsewhere also note that the backs and styles did not lift at all just the inside corners on a select abount of the m not all why is what i ask you why not all of them I asked here how we were going to take care of things and i have been kicked to the curb thanks jess for screwi ng me over and leaving me hi and dry


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## Steve Neul

Every different finish has it quirks. Even an experienced finisher can have major problems when using a new product they are unfamiliar with. They don't really put instructions on products anymore and if you go online you usually find more info to keep the manufacturer from being sued than how to use the product. You pretty much have to teach yourself to use the product and in the process it's common to have problems. I've gotten to where when I use a new product I will finish a piece of scrap first before attempting to use it on a product.


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## ColorStylist

brushworkssd said:


> I too had this issue and my sw rep has told me three different things when it wrinkled up it was that i didnt catalyze the white vinyl sealer on the undercoating and that info was needlessly tossed to the wind as my problem after stripping the doors that had been affected to bare wood on the panels and styles if needed after i continued to fight the wrinklesl of the doors that had minimal amounts of wrinkling i thought i had them out the door only to have a call from the customer who had now waited about a month for us to correct it in the first place as they were out of the country when they tried to call and said the doors needed to again be corrected again and that they were blistering in the corners from the detail to the panel but not the styles after getting them from the customer i looked them over and called her again to be informed that it was my fault that it lifted as it didnt adhere because i had failed to clean the dust off appropriately which i found about as amusing as being raped by a group of skin heads. Now im out two strips on about 25 doors and drawer fronts now and after talking and thinking about it for a minute i came to the conclusion it must have been a bad batch or something as it didnt bond appropriately with what was now catalyzed white vinyl sealer and it lifted in spots up to an inch to 2 inches from the detail and the paenel even on the ones i had stripped, when i approached here i said i didnt strip them all the way done on some but it was only on ones that had like 1 to 2 inch wrinkles that i scraped and hit again and the doors looked great when i dropped them off but were attrocious now. after plugging this theory to my rep she once again has snubbed me and said that i must not have mixed the appropriate amount of the catalyst and that i was supposed to strip them before i event started to finsish them all to bare wood so that it would bond to the suvstrate from day one so again its my fault again the sds sheets said nothing nor did she about any if the items she had mentioned to me. These ass clowns cost me about 130 man hours now and she had told me nothing about any of this prior to the problems that occured nor did she offer anything to me to comp the labore for it other than 2 gals of each the vinyl sealer and then the varnish to correct it so now im out anothe 1700 in labor on top of the same amountin materials over the month trying to correct it in the first place along with an attitude from my rep to go with it. So know after all this im dropping the ****ty rep and store and ill order elsewhere also note that the backs and styles did not lift at all just the inside corners on a select abount of the m not all why is what i ask you why not all of them I asked here how we were going to take care of things and i have been kicked to the curb thanks jess for screwi ng me over and leaving me hi and dry


What were the products you used, numbers of the SW products? Also, tell me the finishing schedule you used and I will see if I can figure out what happened.

I can tell you that if you use a CV coating and you get wrinkling in it, that means that there was a softer coating underneath the CV. CV will not wrinkle on its own.


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## ColorStylist

Steve Neul said:


> Every different finish has it quirks. Even an experienced finisher can have major problems when using a new product they are unfamiliar with. They don't really put instructions on products anymore and if you go online you usually find more info to keep the manufacturer from being sued than how to use the product. You pretty much have to teach yourself to use the product and in the process it's common to have problems. I've gotten to where when I use a new product I will finish a piece of scrap first before attempting to use it on a product.


About 8 out of 10 times its user error and not the product itself, especially when it comes to catalyzed products.


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## Steve Neul

ColorStylist said:


> About 8 out of 10 times its user error and not the product itself, especially when it comes to catalyzed products.


A person should stick with a finish they know well and have mastered. Some of these guys use a different finish with each project. It's no wonder they have problems. It's enough to make anyone dizzy.


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## ColorStylist

Steve Neul said:


> A person should stick with a finish they know well and have mastered. Some of these guys use a different finish with each project. It's no wonder they have problems. It's enough to make anyone dizzy.


AMEN.

A product data sheet works wonders, but you still have to know how to finish using a data sheet. The PDS doesn't finish the piece for you!


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