# French Cleat Question



## jordangatenby (Oct 9, 2014)

Hello,

I am building a wall hanging tool cabinet that is attached to the wall with a french cleat. The plans call for both angles on the cleat to be 40-degrees. The only french cleats I have ever seen are 45-degrees or at least they add to 90 total. I can't even visualize why two 40-degree angles would be desirable. Can anyone let me know why the plans would indicate this or should I just cut the angles at 45?

Thanks!

Jordan


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

40 degrees or 45 degrees either angle would be fine as long as both were the same.

Keep in mind that if you are installing a cabinet all the way to the ceiling a french cleat won't work. The cabinet must be raised above the cleat.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I have always made them at 45 degrees, however I have seen plans where they call for 40 and even 35 degrees.


----------



## jordangatenby (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks for the replies! Is there any advantage to a 40-degree angle? This thing will be heavy so I want to make sure there isn't something I'm missing.

Thank you!


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

jordangatenby said:


> Thanks for the replies! Is there any advantage to a 40-degree angle? This thing will be heavy so I want to make sure there isn't something I'm missing.
> 
> Thank you!


No, the less angle you use the less the cabinet would have to be lifted to remove it from the french cleat. In my opinion the more angle the better. 

When I did commercial work we used french cleats in medical offices as it was code here for sanitary reasons not to have fasteners inside of a cabinet. When we installed them we put a small amount of glue on the french cleat to prevent someone from accidentally lifting the cabinet off the wall.


----------



## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I don't think you'd ever see the difference between 40 and 45. Just make it 45 for ease and convenience.


----------



## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

It doesn't matter the angle, so long as the angles add up to 90. If you were to cut 2 pieces to 40 degrees, the cleat wouldn't work because the agkes wouldn't match up like they should. You'd have to do one side 40 and the other 50 degrees. I think the reason 45 degrees is used so much is because it leave the most wood on either piece. If you were to go with a 40 and a 50 match up, the 40 degree angle would be weaker due to there being less wood on it


----------



## Tman1 (Jan 14, 2013)

epicfail48 said:


> It doesn't matter the angle, so long as the angles add up to 90. If you were to cut 2 pieces to 40 degrees, the cleat wouldn't work because the agkes wouldn't match up like they should. You'd have to do one side 40 and the other 50 degrees. I think the reason 45 degrees is used so much is because it leave the most wood on either piece. If you were to go with a 40 and a 50 match up, the 40 degree angle would be weaker due to there being less wood on it


Actually, adding up to 90 is only for miter joint. For a French cleat, the angle needs to add up to 180. This is easy to achieve, because the board starts out at 180. So, if you make the same cut for both pieces and use one side of the cut for the wall and the other side of the cut for the cabinet. This is why people say the angle does not matter, as long as it is the same. 

There is a reason not to use a large angle and reasons not to use a small angle. I am talking the angle to the wall or face of the board and not the angle to the edge of the board. For angles relative to the edge of the board, everything I say will be backwards. 

Large angles will be easier to knock off of the wall. The extreme example would be a 90 degree angle, which is really only a shelf. It would take little effort to pull the cabinet off the wall. The opposite extreme is a 0 degree angle. In this condition, no matter how hard you pulled away from the wall, the cabinet would not come off unless the cleats broke or you lifted it up over the cleat. 

Which brings up the main disadvantage of small angles. The smaller the angle, the weaker the cleat, unless you increase the total cleat thickness. 

This is why plans usually call for something close to 45. There really won't be much difference between 45 and 40. But, the 40 will be slightly harder to pull off the wall, and slightly easier to break.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> It doesn't matter the angle, so long as the angles add up to 90. If you were to cut 2 pieces to 40 degrees, the cleat wouldn't work because the agkes wouldn't match up like they should. You'd have to do one side 40 and the other 50 degrees. I think the reason 45 degrees is used so much is because it leave the most wood on either piece. If you were to go with a 40 and a 50 match up, the 40 degree angle would be weaker due to there being less wood on it


90 degrees doesn't come into the equation, as long as they are the same angle they will work. Generally a board can be ripped and the two halves used.


----------



## jordangatenby (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks for the help. I would understand if the angles will add to 180 or at least lay flat. The picture below is what the plans call for. This will work?


----------



## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jordangatenby said:


> This will work?


Sure. The reason I said just make it 45 is because most every tool we have has presets at 45 and it's just easier that way. But 40 will work just fine.

Here's mine in Ferrari Red and Black -


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

jordangatenby said:


> Thanks for the help. I would understand if the angles will add to 180 or at least lay flat. The picture below is what the plans call for. This will work?


I don't understand where they came up with the 180 degrees. All that matters is the wall cleat and the cabinet member have the same angle. Since both members in the plans call for 40 degrees it would work.


----------



## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

People don't seem to understand French cleats all that well. The steeper the angle on the cleats, the more difficult it is to have them seat correctly. This becomes even more of a problem with a long run of cabinets and walls that aren't perfectly straight. If the French cleat on the wall follows the contours of the wall, you may not be able to get the cleats to "marry" unless you can shim the wall cleat straight. Generally, in addition to the cleats, screws are used to anchor the cabinet, we don't rely only on the cleats since bumping into the cabinet could knock it loose. If you use a less steep angle on the cleats, they slip together much easier. They are used infrequently in the trade but a 30 degree angle is fine, much easier to cut, easier to get together, less chance of not seating all the way. 

Personally, I think French cleats are a waste of time. They are just something that came up on forums and everyone wants to jump on the wagon, not actually knowing their limitations and complexities. One tool cabinet isn't difficult but it does require setting up the cabinet to include a cleat and sides that extend to cover the cleat. The wall cleat needs to be solidly attached but not so tight the two cleats won't fit. Applying end skins after the cabinet is up is often the choice since fitting to the wall and the cleat at the same time can cause issues. 

A tool cabinet may not have as much weight in it as a typical kitchen cabinet full of canned goods. Standard cabinet construction whether residential kitchens or institutional use nailing cleats and attach with screws, no extra ends necessary, no problems with seating, alignment, correcting for wall conditions. After all, the French cleat is only as strong as the anchor points, which aren't any different than just screwing through the cabinet nailing cleat. Other than having fun trying them out, French cleats don't make a lot of practical sense in most situations. In parts of Europe, kitchen cabinets are furniture and folks take them with them if they move. French cleats make a lot of sense and are widely used in that situation.


----------

