# Toner?



## Rocks (Feb 1, 2010)

New to woodworking so if this is a ridiculous question I apologize in advance.

What is a toner? If I added stain to polyurethane is that a toner?

When should a toner be used?


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Rocks said:


> New to woodworking so if this is a ridiculous question I apologize in advance.
> 
> What is a toner? If I added stain to polyurethane is that a toner?
> 
> When should a toner be used?


I wouldn't add stain to polyurethane. Stains have pigments, dyes, oils and other things that might interfere with your polyurethane curing properly. 

Toners in general refer to dyes. I like using TransTint brand liquid dyes. They can be mixed with alcohol (denatured alcohol), water, lacquer or even some oil based varnishes. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11448 There are other dyes as well. Some dry and some liquid.

You can use them to make a dye stain or very lightly color or tone a sealer or finish coat. I would never use them in a final finish coat though.


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Follow up....

As for when a "toner" should be used, normally in custom matching something where you may stain it and need it just a tiny little bit redder, browner, more orange or yellow.... you can tint a seal coat so that you get a bit of color without totally covering up what is already there. Like making a deep brown stain color a reddish brown by using some red dye in the seal coat. And like I said earlier, you can make full dye stains which you would use on woods that don't take a penetrating stain well like Pine, Poplar, Birch some Maple or even Cherry is often times stained using a dye stain rather than a penetrating stain.


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## Rocks (Feb 1, 2010)

JW_in_Indy said:


> And like I said earlier, you can make full dye stains which you would use on woods that don't take a penetrating stain well like Pine, Poplar, Birch some Maple or even Cherry is often times stained using a dye stain rather than a penetrating stain.


Perhaps I used the wrong terminology in describing how I would make a toner. I didnt specify that I would use a dye stain. Do dyes blend better in polyurethane?

I need to finish a birch/poplar piece. I thought I would use a water based dye stain on the bare wood. Then mix a little with water based polyurethane for a top coat. (I thought that was a toner.) My thought was that the tinted polyutethane would help calm down any hot spots. I got the idea from reading the spec sheet on the dye stain from General Finshes.
http://www.generalfinishes.com/sites/default/files/dye-stains_0.pdf

I'm wanting to use waterbased polyurethane for the finish coat. I have to finish the piece in the house and I dont want the fumes of oil based. I want to use polyurethane because this piece is going to get a lot of use. Its a mud room bench. Do you have another suggestion?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Rocks said:


> Perhaps I used the wrong terminology in describing how I would make a toner. I didnt specify that I would use a dye stain. Do dyes blend better in polyurethane?
> 
> I need to finish a birch/poplar piece. I thought I would use a water based dye stain on the bare wood. Then mix a little with water based polyurethane for a top coat. (I thought that was a toner.) My thought was that the tinted polyutethane would help calm down any hot spots. I got the idea from reading the spec sheet on the dye stain from General Finshes.
> http://www.generalfinishes.com/sites/default/files/dye-stains_0.pdf
> ...


You can add a dye stain or a pigment to waterbase polyurethane. If you apply the colored finish to the bare wood it will likely get too dark or take too much color too soon. 

I like to get at least 4-5 coats of finish. If I need to tone in order to even out the color, I will start with a lightly tinted spray coat over a first coat or two of clear, with just misting to the point of getting as much as I need and no more.

It's very difficult without stripping to get it off. Once you get the color where you want it, apply a finish coat in just clear. The actual topcoat could carry toner if you need it to.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

At as spraying demonstration I saw WB stain and WB poly mixed. It worked out well.

HOWEVER, the person doing the demonstration who I know and respect, said "Rather than mixing why not just buy Polyshades, spray it and then top coat it with Polycrylic?" OK, so the demonstrator's product line included Minwax but he got the point across.

Important point, IT WAS A SPRAYING DEMONSTRATION.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

I agree with rrich it is a spraying technique. When you do it without spraying it is called glazing. (Polyshades is a product made to emulate shading and prevent blotchiness for the hobby market) I was taught that toning is when pigments are used to tone out a bad spot in the wood and done on raw wood or washcoat only (like dark streaks in poplar) and shading is when you use dyes in your finish to adjust differences in color (Done between sealer coats or even in the topcoat, you just don't want to sand the shading). There are situations where the two techniques blur together, like the sunburst effect on a Fender guitar where you use a pigment shading to create a halo effect. Very nice on antiqued finishes. You can do what you are most comfortable with. You don't say if you are using oil based or water based products. I don't like oil base dyes, they are not very light fast so a small amount of UTC (universal tinting color) or artists oil colors would be best. Use a small amount or you will get muddy results. Dyes like transtint can be added to water based products and they also make water based UTC, gouache or artists water colors. The main thing is too keep it to a minimum, even dyes will muddy up the finish if shaded on too heavily. And the most important thing of all: DO SAMPLES FIRST!


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## Rocks (Feb 1, 2010)

I want to use water based products.

I thought I was getting a handle on this, but now I am more confused. I guess I will just have to get a few different products and make some samples. 

This seems like something that you can only understand by doing it, and learning from mistakes. I guess the important part is to make those mistakes on scrap.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

> This seems like something that you can only understand by doing it, and learning from mistakes. I guess the important part is to make those mistakes on scrap.


Smarter words were never spoken!


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