# Dog Hole Router Template



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Hi All

We replaced the table in our trailer with Acacia butcher block from the giant orange store and I ended up with a 2 foot by 3 foot piece leftover.

My idea is to put some feet on it to raise it up a bit and then fill it with dog holes to use as a clamping board for putting together face frames etc. I can clamp it to the bench and then remove and store it when not needed. Maybe when I get the bigger shop I'll build a base for it so it's a proper bench at the proper height.

You tube videos seem to suggest the best way to make 3/4" holes is with a 1/2" spiral router bit and a collar in a template made on a CNC machine. Woodpecker and Rockler both sell the kit.

So... has anyone ever bought this kit used it once and put it on a shelf? Want to get some of your $$ back? 

Call me cheap but I don't want to spend $100 on a dog hole kit.

On the other hand I don't to spend a half a day building a jig so I can build a clamp table, I want to spend the weekend building some face frames.

The best possible answer is that someone else already has this, has used it, doesn't need it again and wants to pass it along for some $$


Jeff


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Cheapsake or practical? If it were me, I'd just use a 3/4" saw tooth Forstner bit in a 1/2" corded drill with a guide.
If the pattern is the issue, not the hole drilling process, then a drywall square or equivalent in 24" and a fine line pencil would be my method.
I suppose, for the OCC types, make a pattern template. Using a 3/4" thick X 8" square BB with 4 holes accurately drilled could be used in a progressive manner with holding dowels to locate the next two holes. That way, you only need to lay out the first 4 holes accurately and work your way around the block using the previously drilled holes to locate the next two.
Full Disclosure, this is an imaginary/theoretical approach I have never tried....


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I’ve posed the same idea with the PARF guide. Wouldn’t it be nice if Woodcraft rented them out?

Since I plan to redo my assembly top as an MFT, I’ve researched this quite a bit. I’ve concluded you definitely need a jig that registers accurately. I’ve looked at everything from DIY to expensive PARF guides ans Woodpecker. I’ve also looked at peg board, also Bora makes a predrilled top to either use as a pattern, or skip the whole process and use it as the top.

There are various guides or stencils on EBay produced by people with CNC’s.

My “original” idea was to use pegboard and pin guides similar to what WNT described, but soon discovered it was not my idea.😉


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## _Ogre (Feb 1, 2013)

having never used dogs, don't they just go into a 3/4" hole?
wouldn't a paddle bit be as effective as a forstner bit or a router bit?
i'll assume they were originally installed with an bit and brace
not sure i see the use of the 5" grid as holes down the sides would probably work as well
i see all the extra holes as catch-alls


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## Jim Frye (Aug 24, 2016)

When I did the dog holes in my workbench, I used a Forstner bit of the appropriate size mounted in my PortAlign drill guide driven by my 1/2" corded drill. It has a max rpm of 200 and easily hoged out the holes wherever I needed them. The drill guide also mounts under one of my table saw accessory tables to use as a drum sander when I didn't have an OSS. I laid the hole pattern out with masking tape and squares, straight edges, pencils and erasers. Unless this is more than a one off task, I see no need for a template. I drilled the dog holes all the way through the bench top, thus no dust/chip catching. 








Drill Mate mounted for use under router table.







www.woodworkingtalk.com


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

The grid has to be square so you can brace two parts of a face frame against the dogs and have then held at 90 degrees while you screw the pocket screws in. This gives you a rail and stile that are aligned on all three axis, less sanding and no gaps. If the dog holes aren't aligned to begin with, then the face frames you build won't be square. I don't think that free-handing it will be accurate enough for cabinetry.

I've seen videos of people using paddle bits with one of those drill press jigs like Jim posted that you put your drill into. The dog hole has to be drilled at 90 degrees. A forstner bit would also work but you still have to make sure it drills a hole at 90 degrees, a plunge router makes a hole that is nice and sqaure with the top of the table.

I've been following this guy on you tube, take a look at 8:20 to see how he uses the dog holes and some clamps to align the face frame for assembly. This is what I'm aiming for.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

JayArr said:


> The grid has to be square so you can brace two parts of a face frame against the dogs and have then held at 90 degrees while you screw the pocket screws in. This gives you a rail and stile that are aligned on all three axis, less sanding and no gaps. If the dog holes aren't aligned to begin with, then the face frames you build won't be square. I don't think that free-handing it will be accurate enough for cabinetry.
> 
> I've seen videos of people using paddle bits with one of those drill press jigs like Jim posted that you put your drill into. The dog hole has to be drilled at 90 degrees. A forstner bit would also work but you still have to make sure it drills a hole at 90 degrees, a plunge router makes a hole that is nice and sqaure with the top of the table.
> 
> I've been following this guy on you tube, take a look at 8:20 to see how he uses the dog holes and some clamps to align the face frame for assembly. This is what I'm aiming for.


I totally get you, but I’m not sure others do. They aren’t just dog holes, they anre extremely accurate dog holes. Agree 100% you need a jig for repeatable results, otherwise the error multiplies. If pencils and squares were accurate enough Mr. Parf wouldn’t be a millionaire. 

A drill guide _can_ be accurate enough if it’s good enough. The only one I’ve seen that measures up is the Rockler and it’s a little pricey, hard to justify for a seldom used jig.

96mm grid isn’t necessary. That’s why I think the pegboard system is the cheapest most accurate way to go. The trick is making a base plate adapter perfectly centered on the bit 😳. Not sure exactly how to do that.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Another "great idea" came to me reading this thread and seeing the images. Let's make the template I descibed above from 3/4" BB on an 8" square accurately laid out with the four 3/4" diameter holes.
Secure the template on the pencil lined grid for the first 4 holes, BUT no need to drill than all the way through using the template. Drill just 1/2" or so deep for now and come back later and drill them all the way through.
Still use two 3/4" dowels or pins to locate the template into holes, 3 and 4 made initially.


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I totally get you, but I’m not sure others do. They aren’t just dog holes, they anre extremely accurate dog holes. Agree 100% you need a jig for repeatable results, otherwise the error multiplies. If pencils and squares were accurate enough Mr. Parf wouldn’t be a millionaire.
> 
> A drill guide _can_ be accurate enough if it’s good enough. The only one I’ve seen that measures up is the Rockler and it’s a little pricey, hard to justify for a seldom used jig.
> 
> 96mm grid isn’t necessary. That’s why I think the pegboard system is the cheapest most accurate way to go. The trick is making a base plate adapter perfectly centered on the bit 😳. Not sure exactly how to do that.


Use the pegboard as your template/drill guide and overlay it on the stock you plan on using for the base plate.


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

make an mft table


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Another "great idea" came to me reading this thread and seeing the images. Let's make the template I descibed above from 3/4" BB on an 8" square accurately laid out with the four 3/4" diameter holes.
> Secure the template on the pencil lined grid for the first 4 holes, BUT no need to drill than all the way through using the template. Drill just 1/2" or so deep for now and come back later and drill them all the way through.
> Still use two 3/4" dowels or pins to locate the template into holes, 3 and 4 made initially.


That‘s the basis for most jigs. Pegboard easier, get as big a sheets as you need, don‘t ah e to move anything.

@builtinbkyn2 — You need a base plate with 4 registration pins. The bit has to be centered on that. Check the Woodrave jig that basically it.


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## _Ogre (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks. Only seen dogs for planing or clamping against


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

JayArr said:


> Hi All
> 
> We replaced the table in our trailer with Acacia butcher block from the giant orange store and I ended up with a 2 foot by 3 foot piece leftover.
> 
> ...


I really do not understand the need for such a device. I make my face frames mortise and tenon. If the mortise is cut properly and the shoulders of the tenon are square the face frame will be square. If using pocket screws, if your rail end is cut perfectly square, then your face frame will be square. The best of jigs can not take an out out of square rail end and make a square face frame out of it. What am I missing?


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> That‘s the basis for most jigs. Pegboard easier, get as big a sheets as you need, don‘t ah e to move anything.
> 
> @builtinbkyn2 — You need a base plate with 4 registration pins. The bit has to be centered on that. Check the Woodrave jig that basically it.


I understand. So what’s the issue? Place the stock you are going to use for the plate under the pegboard , pick four evenly spaced holes and drill away. The center is determined by the spacing of your holes based on the dog hole grid spacing you want.


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## Jim Frye (Aug 24, 2016)

Ah, pocket screw joinery. I make my face frames flat on my assembly table using 90 degree squares and clamps both to the squares and the table top. I use a variety of joinery methods, but not pocket holes. I know it's not as quick as pocket hole joinery, but I'm not doing production work so time doesn't matter. If one is doing a lot of pocket holes, then a proper clamping jig is a necessity.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

As a hobbiest/homeowner I need to pick a method and tool up to that method. My cabinets will all likely be in utility rooms, secondary bathrooms and/or laundrey rooms as well as my shop. I doubt my wife will want to let me build the kitchen cabinets. Mine will not be "on display" and further to that, they'll all likely be made of poplar and painted white.

So with that in mind mortise and tenon seemed like too much work, I considered dowels but after trying then a couple of times I found they were hard to get in the exact center. Pocket screws and a clamping table system seems like a good option.

I've asked the guy in the woodworking department at my local tool store to order this for me.









Rockler Dog Hole Routing Template


Create a grid of neatly spaced dog holes with just your plunge router—3/4'' holes accept a wide variety of workholding accessories.




www.rockler.com





I'm sure it'll be $100Cdn by the time they are done with me but I like that it's the old 3/4" holes and I like that the cutting tool, in this case a 1/2" spiral router bit, never touches the template, you plunge, then rotate the router around the template hole with the guide touching the template and you get your correct hole. This means that the template won't get chewed, bitten or enlarged by contact with a spade or forstner bit.

Fingers crossed.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

builtinbkyn2 said:


> I understand. So what’s the issue? Place the stock you are going to use for the plate under the pegboard , pick four evenly spaced holes and drill away. The center is determined by the spacing of your holes based on the dog hole grid spacing you want.


I think I see what you’re saying, but seems to me it would be better to have the hole centered exactly on a pegboard hole.

Thinking about it, the way to do it would be to install a 1/4” bit, turn the router upside down, drill a 1/4” hole in the accessory base, place on router base with the bit through a hole, and use double stick tape to attach to base. Drilling holes to match base would be a bit tricky. Then a piece of peg board and drill 4 dowel pin holes. This is basically what the Woodrave jig is. Unfortunately it’s no longer available. The advantage going you can create as big a template as you want, rather than be restricted like the Rockler, Domifix, etc.

What I don’t particularly like about the Rockler & Woodpecker is using a 1/2” bit + multiple passes & and having to run the collar around the circumference, as opposed to a single plunge cut with a 20mm or 3/4” bit.

When I do it, I think I’ll stick with the pegboard method and see how well it works.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Great suggestion on the 1/4" router bit which fits exactly in the pegboard holes!
You can have several size templates if that makes sense at the cost of 1/4" pegboard.
AND, the pegboard is not altered and is still usable.
Another advantage us you can see the entire layout BEFORE drilling any holes and you can shift it to make it symmetrical or whatever.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

JayArr said:


> As a hobbiest/homeowner I need to pick a method and tool up to that method. My cabinets will all likely be in utility rooms, secondary bathrooms and/or laundrey rooms as well as my shop. I doubt my wife will want to let me build the kitchen cabinets. Mine will not be "on display" and further to that, they'll all likely be made of poplar and painted white.
> 
> So with that in mind mortise and tenon seemed like too much work, I considered dowels but after trying then a couple of times I found they were hard to get in the exact center. Pocket screws and a clamping table system seems like a good option.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with pocket screws, I just prefer M&T. When I make a cab box I make the face frames first, and make the boxes 1/4" undersized in the width (1/8 overhang or scribe). The back of the box is 1/4" plywood that sits in a 1/4" dado set back 1/2" from the back edge of the cab to allow for a 1/2" ply nailer. When the back is inserted and stabled into the back of the box is when the box is squared. There are a number of ways to attach the face frame to the box. Some use splines, biscuits or cut a dado in the sides of the face frame to accept the cab side. Some nail them, some just glue them. I do not believe there is any one of these methods that is "better" than the others, just preference. Being that the cabinet is already squared, when the face frame is applied it will square itself it slightly out of square. An square face frame will not square an out of square box. Don't overthink it. You want your face frame as close to square as possible, but by the time it is finished and ready to be put on, with only 2" widths, it likely will not be perfectly straight or square anyhow. Make sure your boxes are perfectly square, that is the key and simple to do.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

B Coll said:


> There is nothing wrong with pocket screws, I just prefer M&T. When I make a cab box I make the face frames first, and make the boxes 1/4" undersized in the width (1/8 overhang or scribe). The back of the box is 1/4" plywood that sits in a 1/4" dado set back 1/2" from the back edge of the cab to allow for a 1/2" ply nailer. When the back is inserted and stabled into the back of the box is when the box is squared. There are a number of ways to attach the face frame to the box. Some use splines, biscuits or cut a dado in the sides of the face frame to accept the cab side. Some nail them, some just glue them. I do not believe there is any one of these methods that is "better" than the others, just preference. Being that the cabinet is already squared, when the face frame is applied it will square itself it slightly out of square. An square face frame will not square an out of square box. Don't overthink it. You want your face frame as close to square as possible, but by the time it is finished and ready to be put on, with only 2" widths, it likely will not be perfectly straight or square anyhow. Make sure your boxes are perfectly square, that is the key and simple to do.


The advantage of pocket screws is pretty much labor saving. No joinery, no clamps or waiting for glue to dry. You make the ff and immediately install on cabs.

Pocket screws there, too. On exposed end cabs biscuits/Dominos/dowels and glue. BTW I’ve mounted face frames to plywood edges with nothing but glue and you can’t get them off! DAMHIKT. If the cabs are already mounted use those special face frame clamps.

I think the key to perfectly square boxes is having your table saw dialed in, and like parts dimensions gang cut IOW don‘t change that fence.


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I think I see what you’re saying, but seems to me it would be better to have the hole centered exactly on a pegboard hole.
> 
> Thinking about it, the way to do it would be to install a 1/4” bit, turn the router upside down, drill a 1/4” hole in the accessory base, place on router base with the bit through a hole, and use double stick tape to attach to base. Drilling holes to match base would be a bit tricky. Then a piece of peg board and drill 4 dowel pin holes. This is basically what the Woodrave jig is. Unfortunately it’s no longer available. The advantage going you can create as big a template as you want, rather than be restricted like the Rockler, Domifix, etc.
> 
> ...


Have you seen this Doc? Link Seems like a reasonable price for a true MFT top if you are going to use Festool dogs and components.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

builtinbkyn2 said:


> Have you seen this Doc? Link Seems like a reasonable price for a true MFT top if you are going to use Festool dogs and components.


I hadn't seen those, kinda pricey. I've looked at the Bora tops made for their Centipede stand, but they are 3/4" holes, which can be an issue. 3/4 vs 20mm (.787") Parf dogs are I believe 19.9 mm (.783) to fit 20mm holes, not gonna work with 3/4" 

I believe Lee Valley and some others carry a 3/4" Parf dog, not sure about the ones made to attach a track.

Long story short, it seems to me if you're set up for it tool wise and want to go with a true MFT set up, you need to 20mm holes. There's just no easy way to do it: either a 20mm Forstner bit (cheapest) or 20mm router bit. That sends you down a bit of a rabbit hole looking for bits (Bosch and Festool are the only ones I've found) or a 20mm router bit, which only come in 10mm collet sizes, so you need a collet adapter. Either way its $50-70 depending on what you get.

So yeah, considering the cost of bits, template and time to make one, not to mention human error, I think a person might be better off buying a predrilled top?

For your home viewing entertainment:


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

Not sure how exactly accurate these MFT tables must be to be of use, but his method does introduce error. His measuring from the edge instead of simply using another 4mm something or other inserted into the holes he drilled parallel, was silly. He has one awl of 4mm and couldn't find something else that's the same diameter? And suggesting you can just eyeball things by aligning the jig across half the hole, destroyed all the checking of accuracy he did prior to starting. I'm sure it will be sufficient, but as I asked, not sure how accurate these need to be. I've never used one.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

DrRobert said:


> I hadn't seen those, kinda pricey. I've looked at the Bora tops made for their Centipede stand, but they are 3/4" holes, which can be an issue. 3/4 vs 20mm (.787") Parf dogs are I believe 19.9 mm (.783) to fit 20mm holes, not gonna work with 3/4"
> 
> I believe Lee Valley and some others carry a 3/4" Parf dog, not sure about the ones made to attach a track.
> 
> ...


You have basically summed up why I refuse to buy anything festool.

"Let's make everything we sell custom to a standard we invent so users cannot use any other brand ever"


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

builtinbkyn2 said:


> Not sure how exactly accurate these MFT tables must be to be of use, but his method does introduce error. His measuring from the edge instead of simply using another 4mm something or other inserted into the holes he drilled parallel, was silly. He has one awl of 4mm and couldn't find something else that's the same diameter? And suggesting you can just eyeball things by aligning the jig across half the hole, destroyed all the checking of accuracy he did prior to starting. I'm sure it will be sufficient, but as I asked, not sure how accurate these need to be. I've never used one.


I put that in the post to illustrate you can't slop your way through it. He could never rely on that table to reliably jig up anything square.



BigCountry79 said:


> You have basically summed up why I refuse to buy anything festool.
> "Let's make everything we sell custom to a standard we invent so users cannot use any other brand ever"


So you're able to get into the mind of an engineer or a production team in Germany?  35mm hinge cups, 32mm cabinet system, 20mm dog holes -- European standards and make perfect sense for something made in Germany.

Once upon a time, I had your attitude about Festool, and that's your right, and I agree to some extent, for example I'd never buy their jigsaw or miter saw. But I can tell you you're missing out on some excellent sanders. On second thought, nevermind, didn't you say you don't sand anything?


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

DrRobert said:


> So you're able to get into the mind of an engineer or a production team in Germany?


YEP!


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

DrRobert said:


> I put that in the post to illustrate you can't slop your way through it. He could never rely on that table to reliably jig up anything square.
> 
> 
> So you're able to get into the mind of an engineer or a production team in Germany?  35mm hinge cups, 32mm cabinet system, 20mm dog holes -- European standards and make perfect sense for something made in Germany.
> ...


He did take himself seriously lol

Hand cutting mortises and tenons can be relaxing or frustrating lol, but I do love my Festool Dominos to make quick work of things. Worth the price of admission IMO.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

builtinbkyn2 said:


> He did take himself seriously lol
> 
> Hand cutting mortises and tenons can be relaxing or frustrating lol, but I do love my Festool Dominos to make quick work of things. Worth the price of admission IMO.


It’s funny how people can have totally different experiences with a machine or tool. I had a Domino and it turned out not to be the game changer I thought it would. But my biggest issue was try as I might, I could never consistently get the alignment everyone talks about, in fact I got better results with a biscuit joiner. I always felt it was related to the fence. I really tried to eliminate operator error.

I sold it back during COVID when Festool shut down and it ended up @ $1100 on EBay.

I have a floor mortiser (nice machine) but limited to square material. After doing the mortises by router in the deck chair build, I got kinda sold on that.


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## builtinbkyn2 (3 mo ago)

I use all methods including router and hand cut. The right means and method for the job, as they say, and sometimes it's just fun to do things a different way. But never had an issue with alignment using Dominos. There's actually a setting to allow for overcutting by 5mm in the X axis to overcome any alignment issues on long glue-ups. Like any tool/machine/method, there are nuances that need to be learned/understood thru use. I had a bench top mortiser and sold it. There have been times I considered a PM floor mortiser but just couldn't justify giving up the landscape it requires in the shop. Biscuits are fine for alignment, but don't provide the structural component of Dominos. That's where it shines and makes them easily repeatable.


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## OldDon (Feb 19, 2018)

Bora Centipede tops come in 3/4" or 20mm hole versions. Plus one with no holes.


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## LilMtnDave (12 mo ago)

JayArr said:


> ...
> 
> "I considered dowels but after trying then a couple of times I found they were hard to get in the exact center. "
> 
> ...


I recently purchased *this dowling kit*. While there are certainly more expensive options, for <$25, this system centers and works pretty well overall.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

At that price point I'll pick one up.

The Rockler template arrived today and I'm pretty impressed. It's nice thick plexiglass so I'm not afraid of it breaking, they included pins for the outside to align it on the first corner and then three special dogs to keep aligning it as you move along the board. Lastly they included the guide for the router.

I'll post up more once I've tried it.


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