# saw stop



## tad

iam looking to buy my first cabinet saw. I was looking at the Jet 10 inch deluxe 708675 and the Saw Stop 3 hp 10 inch professioal. Is Saw Stop worth the extra money? We are talking another grand!


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## woodnthings

*depends*

Those that have them, love them.
Those that have them and got them AFTER a mishap, love them and wish they has gotten one before.
Those that don't have them, either have all their fingers or are missing some. They fall into 3 types:
1. I want one , but can't afford it now.
2. I want one, but won't get one ever, because I know what I'm doing.
3. I don't want one and don't need one, because I know what I'm doing.

A $1000 is a lot of money, but if you are starting out ...you can pay now or pay later sorta' thing. All it takes is one screw up, but then it's too late.
Hope that clears it up for Ya. :blink::no: bill


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## tad

*fingers*

I think I know what you are trying to tell me. A thousand dollars is a pretty good price on 10 fingers. Thanks


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## BassBlaster

woodnthings, you forgot one group

4. The technology is brilliant but Gass is a crooked douche and he'll never get a dime of my money!!


Buying a Saw Stop is a personal decision. There are many thing to consider, like, many people complain that there are a lot of parts that need to be upgraded on that saw right out of the box. IMO, the most expensive saw on the market shouldnt require upgrades, EVER!! There are many reports of this mechanism going off without ever contacting the blade, mainly due to cutting wet wood without turning the mechanism off. I dunno how forgetful you are but depending how much your blade cost, you could be looking at $200 (replacement cartridge and blade) every time you "forget". Then theres the ole, "Gass is a douche and will never get a dime of my money" arguement. I wont get into that one, BTDT, do some research, its all out there, in fact, much of it is right here at WWT.

All that being said, most of the people that have made that purchase, love the saw. Many have returned them. IMO, do a lot of research and only you can decide if its worth the extra money.

Go to the power tools section of the site, click search in the upper right hand corner and type "saw stop", I'm sure you'll find enough info there to keep you busy the rest of the afternoon.


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## Domer

*Saw Stop*

Woodthings hit it right on the head. 

I do not know why BassBlaster thinks Gass is crooked. I think it is because Mr. Gass has actively promoted his product and has asked the Feds to make it mandatory. That does not make him crooked in my book but apparently it does with some folks. 

I am in the first group. I have one and love it. I thought it was worth the extra money.

I, however, do not agree with the government mandating something with flesh sensing technology. 

You will be getting some strong opinions from both sides. 

Domer


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## tad

*ww*

I'll do that just joined today. Alot to learn thanks for help!


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## cocheseuga

Domer said:


> *I do not know why BassBlaster thinks Gass is crooked.* I think it is because Mr. Gass has actively promoted his product and has asked the Feds to make it mandatory. That does not make him crooked in my book but apparently it does with some folks.
> 
> 
> Domer


I suppose it depends on if you think lobbying to make a royalty on every single table saw sold in America, by law, is crooked.


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## BassBlaster

Domer said:


> Woodthings hit it right on the head.
> 
> I do not know why BassBlaster thinks Gass is crooked. I think it is because Mr. Gass has actively promoted his product and has asked the Feds to make it mandatory. That does not make him crooked in my book but apparently it does with some folks.
> 
> I am in the first group. I have one and love it. I thought it was worth the extra money.
> 
> I, however, do not agree with the government mandating something with flesh sensing technology.
> 
> You will be getting some strong opinions from both sides.
> 
> Domer


 Because he took his technology to every saw manufacturer in the world. No one wanted to buy it, so, to get back at them, he goes to the feds to try and have it mandated on every saw sold. He's trying to force everyone to buy his product against thier will. On top of that, he is a patent attorny and wrote his patent in such a way that no one can design anything even remotely similar without being in violation of his patent. The best part is, he claims its all in the name of safety and has nothing to do with making money, lol. If thats not crooked then I guess I dont know what is.


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## WarnerConstInc.

Underneath all the safety stuff (which is great for some) it is actually a poor performing under powered saw.


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## rrbrown

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Underneath all the safety stuff (which is great for some) it is actually a poor performing under powered saw.



Your not even close. Are you comparing the contractor saw to a cabinet saw. A 5hp saw to the 3 HP. I have had three 3 hp cabinet saws Grizzly, Shop Fox and the SawStop. It is no way less powered then those. I have used both old and newer unisaws and the older one was low powered but the other one about the same as SawStop. 

It is much nicer then a grizzly or Shop Fox and about the same as the Powermatic or Unisaw. Any of these saw are all good for the money I want the SawStop over the Unisaw or Powermatic only because of the safety feature. If you choose a Grizzly or Shop Fox you will be pleased with the saw for the money provided no accident occurs.


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## rrbrown

BassBlaster said:


> woodnthings, you forgot one group
> 
> 4. The technology is brilliant but Gass is a crooked douche and he'll never get a dime of my money!!
> 
> 
> Buying a Saw Stop is a personal decision. There are many thing to consider, like, many people complain that there are a lot of parts that need to be upgraded on that saw right out of the box. IMO, the most expensive saw on the market shouldnt require upgrades, EVER!! There are many reports of this mechanism going off without ever contacting the blade, mainly due to cutting wet wood without turning the mechanism off. I dunno how forgetful you are but depending how much your blade cost, you could be looking at $200 (replacement cartridge and blade) every time you "forget". Then theres the ole, "Gass is a douche and will never get a dime of my money" arguement. I wont get into that one, BTDT, do some research, its all out there, in fact, much of it is right here at WWT.
> 
> All that being said, most of the people that have made that purchase, love the saw. Many have returned them. IMO, do a lot of research and only you can decide if its worth the extra money.
> 
> Go to the power tools section of the site, click search in the upper right hand corner and type "saw stop", I'm sure you'll find enough info there to keep you busy the rest of the afternoon.



For the record I don't totally disagree with you on this and I do understand and respect your opinion about it. I think he is trying to fight them like they did him but in that case we all loose. Like anything when it get standardized it gets cheaper. they made him build his own saw which raised the price. He wants to force his invention on them which will raise the price more. If they could play nice it would have worked better for us but they don't care about us just the bottom line.

In all comes down to what you want and if your willing to pay the money. 

In your place it's who gets the money more then the amount. :thumbsup::laughing:

I can't blame him for being a good patent attorney though. If it was mine i would want someone to protect it like it was there own. In this case he did.:laughing:


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## WarnerConstInc.

No, I was talking about the 5hp cabinet one. They just don't have the power that a comparable saw does.

Ask any shop teacher that has to run these saw's. They just don't quite measure up.


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## rrbrown

WarnerConstInc. said:


> No, I was talking about the 5hp cabinet one. They just don't have the power that a comparable saw does.
> 
> Ask any shop teacher that has to run these saw's. They just don't quite measure up.


Don't have to ask a shop teacher. They have 3 of them where my Brother in Law works and they love them.


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## BassBlaster

rrbrown said:


> I can't blame him for being a good patent attorney though. If it was mine i would want someone to protect it like it was there own. In this case he did.:laughing:


 I agree, had I invented that technology or anything for that matter, I would want it protected as well. I only brought that up to make my point about him saying it is all in the name of safety and has nothing to do with making money.:no:


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## Flyindiver

I just ordered a 3HP Sawstop PCS today. I've been tinkering with wood for 40 years, and have slowly progressed through the tools. I got serious when I got a Shopsmith 510 about 20 years ago. It was on that machine that I had an unfortunate incident with a saw blade. I like to think that I learned a little bit from that one. The healing probably affected my life for about a year, and even though the removed piece was re-attached, it has no feeling. It was a good lesson for me to learn. I sold the shopsmith about 10 years ago and bought the Dewalt DW746, and been perfectly happy with it, but I knew that when I felt like I had served enough time learning how to make stuff, that I would be moving up to a cabinet saw. I caught a serous case of "SAW-FEVER" about a month ago. Ran into an unexpected overtime period at work and I had some unexpected money... the time had come. 

I had been interested in the SawStop for years, but I was perfectly happy with the Dewalt. I was hooked when I saw the SS 1.75 HP "price..." Then as I added up what I "wanted" I recognized that the 3HP version had it all "standard." So, I signed on the line and ordered one. Guys at work are happy because the guy who bought the shopsmith buys my Dewalt, and he sells the shopsmith to a young guy, another apprentice at the lunch table.

I found this site just this week, and I appreciate the banter. In my case I decided on the Saw Stop many years ago, but I waited until I felt that I had "earned" the advancement to a high quality cabinet saw. I buy most of my tools through Amazon, and I really don't see much difference in price between the models that I would consider. I feel like I "learned" MY lesson on table saw safety 20 years ago. I do not "need" the technology, and the fact that I will soon have it will in no way change the way that I deal with the saw blade. I decided on the SawStop because I have kids learning how to make things in my little workshop. At least in this tool I have taken alll of the steps possible to reduce their chances of having to pick up the bloody scrap from the table like I did (even though it really makes for a cool story!)

I hope that I will never have to rely on the block, and that if ever is needed, I hope that it works, but at least I know that I have taken the step to reduce the potential for someone to be injured using my saw.


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## rrich

I was part of a team that installed 10 Saw Stop saws. (But not used one, yet.) They were all three phase and 5 HP. (I think about the HP.) The technology is remarkable and a huge advance in safety.

As for the fit and finish, they are almost on a par with a UniSaw. I like the magnifying cursor on the fence ruler. (I installed a Saw Stop magnifier on my UniSaw.) 

I talked to the person in charge of the installation a few months ago, he said that there had be no blade drops since installation. Knowing the site where the saws were installed, their operational procedures and safety mentality the lack of blade drops does not surprise me. I doubt that the site will ever have a blade drop.

My issue with Saw Stop is that there is not a second source for the cartridge. And I have an objection to doing business with anyone that I no respect for. IMNSHO, Mr. Gass' business tactics are on a level with what one would expect from an ambulance chaser. I did read the original submission from Saw Stop to the CPSC and I was left with many doubts as to the accuracy of the submission.


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## Nate1778

My last interaction with a rotating saw blade cost $18,000 (insurance covered) or so. Bought a Sawstop after the fact, and fall into the category of wish I had it earlier. I have the 3hp professional and it is a great saw. Either way make sure you have good insurance as injuries that happen in a shop aren't cheap.


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## Woodworkingkid

I wish I have a saw stop and want to have a saw stop but they cost so
Much but losing a finger would cost way more than the cost of one i hope to have a sawstop one day


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## SawdustDave

No alcohol and no sleepy heads allowed in my shop. My grandfather and dad both died with all ten fingers. My brother, nephew and I are still counting to ten at the end of the day.


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## TimPa

aside from the astounding technology (insurance) the (3hp-3ph) cabinet saw is not underpowered in the least, and the saw overall quality is superb. worth the money, yes. jmho.


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## rrich

BassBlaster said:


> Because he took his technology to every saw manufacturer in the world. No one wanted to buy it, so, to get back at them, he goes to the feds to try and have it mandated on every saw sold. He's trying to force everyone to buy his product against thier will. On top of that, he is a patent attorny and wrote his patent in such a way that no one can design anything even remotely similar without being in violation of his patent. The best part is, he claims its all in the name of safety and has nothing to do with making money, lol. If thats not crooked then I guess I dont know what is.


Absolutely!

But it is worse than that.

I read the original submission from Mr. Gass to the CPSC. IMHO the submission was less than professional. Some pictures were included that appeared to be amputations caused by a shaper rather than a table saw. YMMV

In further statistical information I realized the other day that I am a "Table Saw Injury Statistic."

When I purchased my contractor table saw, one of the cast iron wings would not align with the saw. It appears that a hole was drilled incorrectly. I was sent a replacement cast iron wing. The cast iron wing sits on the floor, on edge and is mainly used for a flat surface during small glue ups. 

I was cleaning the shop. I got down on my hands and knees with a bench brush to clean near the back corner of some cabinets. Unfortunately I knocked cast iron wing over. Fortunately my thumb was in just the right position to cushion the cast iron wing from damaging the concrete floor of the shop. The urgent care doctor removed the finger nail from my thumb. Everything has since grown back and is normal. 

Because my HMO reports accidents and the words "Table Saw" are in close proximity to "removed the finger" I am now a table saw amputation statistic. :thumbdown::tongue_smilie:

You have to just love computer databases, spread sheets and MBA whiz kids.


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## cocheseuga

rrich said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> But it is worse than that.
> 
> I read the original submission from Mr. Gass to the CPSC. IMHO the submission was less than professional. Some pictures were included that appeared to be amputations caused by a shaper rather than a table saw. YMMV
> 
> In further statistical information I realized the other day that I am a "Table Saw Injury Statistic."
> 
> When I purchased my contractor table saw, one of the cast iron wings would not align with the saw. It appears that a hole was drilled incorrectly. I was sent a replacement cast iron wing. The cast iron wing sits on the floor, on edge and is mainly used for a flat surface during small glue ups.
> 
> I was cleaning the shop. I got down on my hands and knees with a bench brush to clean near the back corner of some cabinets. Unfortunately I knocked cast iron wing over. Fortunately my thumb was in just the right position to cushion the cast iron wing from damaging the concrete floor of the shop. The urgent care doctor removed the finger nail from my thumb. Everything has since grown back and is normal.
> 
> Because my HMO reports accidents and the words "Table Saw" are in close proximity to "removed the finger" I am now a table saw amputation statistic. :thumbdown::tongue_smilie:
> 
> You have to just love computer databases, spread sheets and MBA whiz kids.


Whomever coded your chart did it wrong. It should have been coded a crush injury and not a table saw injury.


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## Huxleywood

WarnerConstInc. said:


> No, I was talking about the 5hp cabinet one. They just don't have the power that a comparable saw does.
> 
> Ask any shop teacher that has to run these saw's. They just don't quite measure up.


 
I have been around a BUNCH of guys that own and run the 5HP ICS in commercial and home shops and never heard a single complaint about power. Using my friends early 5hp versions (prior to being called the ICS) I can't tell any difference between it and the 5hp PM 72 I used to own, if you are bogging it on anything less than 12/4 exotic you have a blade issue.


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## Flyindiver

*Put me down for a Delta*

I had earlier posted that I had "ordered" a SS. Well, after three weeks of wrangling with even being able to order the SS from a distributor that was "selling" their saws at the KC Woodworking show, I had to change my tune..... SS would not even "accept" my order for a 3400 saw because of the intrigue associated with their sales office. MY MONEY was tied up for three weeks, and I could not even get a date when SS would "accept" the order. I was lucky enough to get a refund from the distributor, and have just ordered a Delta L336 Unisaw. I still cannot believe how SS treated me as a paying customer, and I recognize that if they treat folks like that now, how will they treat folks when parts are required.
What really turned me over to the new Unisaw was finding out that it is actually made in the USA in Anderson SC. As it is with the rebates I save some bucks, get an American made tool, and feel a lot more comfortable about service response. I'm glad that the order went "south." I much rather support the folks in Anderson SC than elsewhere. I am looking forward to actually receiving my saw this time... Buy American!


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## Lostinwoods

Interesting.

I'm in the category of there is no such thing as a portable saw stop. It was either a portable saw for me (less than 60lb) or just use a circular saw for rips. I paid about $350 for my new Bosch I would gladly have paid an extra $100-$150 (the costs I hear bandied about by the manufacturers for adding saw stop technology) for a saw stop version if they had had it. I'll just be super careful and count my fingers before and after. I used a RAS for rips for years with a good guard and never had a problem...but still given the choice I'd prefer the extra protection.
One wonders why they don't offer the license cheap and just sit back and collect the royalties and never have to deal with customers who want to actually buy their products?


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## rrbrown

Lostinwoods said:


> Interesting.
> 
> One wonders why they don't offer the license cheap and just sit back and collect the royalties and never have to deal with customers who want to actually buy their products?


I would have to ask what do you consider cheap? He asked for 7% royalties of the wholesale price. That is a very reasonable fee. The cost for retooling and adding the brake when it was offered to the manufacturers was $150 extra per saw. Which I also consider reasonable. However the one saw that would have been effected the most and may have been out priced by the change was the cheap $150-$300 portable saws. Those saws would have went up atleast another $200 maybe more. The fact that Saw Stop don't offer a portable saw yet is proof that it may have been a hard sale at those prices or even impossible. Now had all the manufacturers got on board it may have made it cheaper or more doable.


You seem to suggest that it didn't go through because of Saw Stop wanting to much money. I believe it to be the portable saw price issue and the collective stubbornness of the industry and there CEO's. Just my opinion.


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## Lostinwoods

I seem to suggest that...hmmm well no I was more making a comment on the fact that the poster above seemed to have a hard time actually buying a saw stop. The figure I heard on NPR was it would add $100 per saw. As I said I would gladly have bought a "safety edition" of my saw for an extra $150. I was trying to be somewhat facitious as if you can't buy a saw stop at any price it isn't going to do much good. If I owned the patent I'd be thrilled at the thought of all the pain and suffering I'd prevent and would be quite happy to collect $1 per saw for the life of the patent or at least until I'd made enough to pay for the cost of the invention plus a modest amount extra to fund future research...but I'm strange I care more about people and the common good than profit that's just the way I'm built and I would feel guilty if I traded profit for safety and so I'll never be wealthy it's just not my motive (and I understand other people are different and have different motives and that makes for a more interesting world which is good...I.e. There is room for all of us).
I've heard various figures as to how much of the $100 would go to royalty fees, but again my comment was more directed at the admittedly small sample above that makes it seem like saw stop is not very customer oriented. Also I'm not advocating a requirement for a saw stop in every saw but it would be nice for those of us willing to pay a bit more to get it and the cheaper this is the more people who will get it which is a benefit to society as at the very least it will keep the cost of severed fingers from saws out of the insurance pool thus saving everyone with insurance some money (in theory, of course MD's and hospitals will lose some money so maybe it balances out). Just IMHO.


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## rrbrown

Lostinwoods said:


> I seem to suggest that...hmmm well no I was more making a comment on the fact that the poster above seemed to have a hard time actually buying a saw stop. The figure I heard on NPR was it would add $100 per saw. As I said I would gladly have bought a "safety edition" of my saw for an extra $150. I was trying to be somewhat facitious as if you can't buy a saw stop at any price it isn't going to do much good. If I owned the patent I'd be thrilled at the thought of all the pain and suffering I'd prevent and would be quite happy to collect $1 per saw for the life of the patent or at least until I'd made enough to pay for the cost of the invention plus a modest amount extra to fund future research...but I'm strange I care more about people and the common good than profit that's just the way I'm built and I would feel guilty if I traded profit for safety and so I'll never be wealthy it's just not my motive (and I understand other people are different and have different motives and that makes for a more interesting world which is good...I.e. There is room for all of us).
> I've heard various figures as to how much of the $100 would go to royalty fees, but again my comment was more directed at the admittedly small sample above that makes it seem like saw stop is not very customer oriented. Also I'm not advocating a requirement for a saw stop in every saw but it would be nice for those of us willing to pay a bit more to get it and the cheaper this is the more people who will get it which is a benefit to society as at the very least it will keep the cost of severed fingers from saws out of the insurance pool thus saving everyone with insurance some money (in theory, of course MD's and hospitals will lose some money so maybe it balances out). Just IMHO.


I guess I misunderstood the intent for whatever reason. As for the problem with the post you referred to I would guess it was a mix up with the dealer and Saw Stop. I couldn't blame them for not sending a saw if they didn't get the money from the dealer but I'm guessing we don't have all the facts. I have found them (Saw Stop) extremely help full and ready to go out of there way to help out.

I have the 3hp Cabinet saw and love it. I did buy it after my 
accident so OOOPS a little late.

I have not seen anything on the numbers you have given. I have gotten the numbers I posted in several papers/articles about it. Your portable saw while you would pay the extra is the biggest reason the saw manufacturers didn't go with the technology. Those saws are there bread and butter saws and they could loose sales with higher prices. I'm a big fan of SawStop but even I am wondering why no portable saws were released by SawStop yet. Maybe they can't produce one in the $500 range which would give merit to the claim of out pricing the smaller portable saws.


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## J.C.

I don't have any first hand knowledge but, it's my understanding one of the reasons it's not available on small portable saws is because they haven't yet figured out how to get it to work without destroying the saw. Looking at my little bosch saw, I would expect it to be in pieces if I jambed something into the blade. It hardly stays together as it is.


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## Lostinwoods

You probably missed my point because I didn't express it very well. The figures I got were from a couple of NPR news stories a few months back but that's my only source. As I said I'm not advocating forcing the cheaper saws too have them just that it would be nice to be able to get them as an option (I have no idea how easy it would be to add it to an existing saw line however). I just find it sad that this nice technology is tied up in one limited line of very expensive saws, but time will eventually cure that when the patents run out or somebody invents something better and cheaper. If I had the money and a place to put one I'd get one, but right now that's two big barriers. I do have a SCMS high on my wish list so that I can reduce the number of cuts needed on the table saw and I bought a pair of "board buddies" which I think will help a lot in the safety and convenience departments in the meanwhile. This is my first table saw and I'm treating it with great respect. Maybe someday I'll be able to convert our carport into a small shop but now the only place I'd have for the saw stop is in the living room which not that big anyway.


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## Lostinwoods

I'd think some kind of shear pin or something like that could be used to protect the motor etc. Never having seen how the saw stop brake works I'm just guessing but there must be a fair amount of force involved in bringing a several pound blade to that fast of a stop.


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## Flyindiver

*service...*

Here is my point.... About 15 years ago I chopped a piece of my thumb off on a Shop Smith. It was reattached and works quite well. I moved up to a Dewalt hybrid about 10 years ago. Everything about the Dewalt was superior to the shop smith, and most of the improvement came from the "fixed" table hight. I put my time in learning how to use the tools, and I was ready, experience wise, and economic wise to step up to a Cabinet saw. I KNEW the Saw Stop was for me, and I went to the KC Woodworkng show last January to buy one. I go to the WW show every year. I enjoy the salesmanship and choices. This year I went with $3500 to buy a Saw Stop.... I walked up to the SS booth. They had SS polo shirts, and I told them that I wanted a saw. They took my name for "follow-up..." At first I thought, WTF, but then I figured that they didn't actually have the saws there, and the sales rep said that he would deliver the saw to my door for free...
That sounded OK, so on Tuesday of the next week we hooked up and I ordered a PCS saw with accessories for $3400. The next week I followed up, and I learned that the sales guy left the company... I did not recognize the impact of that until I learned a couple of weeks later that once "he" left, SS would NOT EVEN ACCEPT orders from the company he worked for. Apparently SS has a "rule" about having an "authorized" sales rep. I WROTE SS, and said "WTF...." (actually it was a nice letter), and you know what, they blew me off...
Well, I got my $3400 check back from the distributor. In fact, it is actually clearing in my checking account today (hopefully)!! I learned something from this episode, SS fails my customer service "test." It actually turned out for the best, because I have purchased a new Delta Unisaw, and with sales promotions, and a $300 rebate, I get an AMERICAN made saw for about $2600. I know that if I have a problem on the Delta that I will get someone at Delta to support me. I would much rather see my money invested in South Carolina than overseas anyway....


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## rrbrown

Flyindiver said:


> Here is my point.... About 15 years ago I chopped a piece of my thumb off on a Shop Smith. It was reattached and works quite well. I moved up to a Dewalt hybrid about 10 years ago. Everything about the Dewalt was superior to the shop smith, and most of the improvement came from the "fixed" table hight. I put my time in learning how to use the tools, and I was ready, experience wise, and economic wise to step up to a Cabinet saw. I KNEW the Saw Stop was for me, and I went to the KC Woodworkng show last January to buy one. I go to the WW show every year. I enjoy the salesmanship and choices. This year I went with $3500 to buy a Saw Stop.... I walked up to the SS booth. They had SS polo shirts, and I told them that I wanted a saw. They took my name for "follow-up..." At first I thought, WTF, but then I figured that they didn't actually have the saws there, and the sales rep said that he would deliver the saw to my door for free...
> That sounded OK, so on Tuesday of the next week we hooked up and I ordered a PCS saw with accessories for $3400. The next week I followed up, and I learned that the sales guy left the company... I did not recognize the impact of that until I learned a couple of weeks later that once "he" left, SS would NOT EVEN ACCEPT orders from the company he worked for. Apparently SS has a "rule" about having an "authorized" sales rep. I WROTE SS, and said "WTF...." (actually it was a nice letter), and you know what, they blew me off...
> Well, I got my $3400 check back from the distributor. In fact, it is actually clearing in my checking account today (hopefully)!! I learned something from this episode, SS fails my customer service "test." It actually turned out for the best, because I have purchased a new Delta Unisaw, and with sales promotions, and a $300 rebate, I get an AMERICAN made saw for about $2600. I know that if I have a problem on the Delta that I will get someone at Delta to support me. I would much rather see my money invested in South Carolina than overseas anyway....



I'm glad your happy with the purchase you made with Delta. 

Having an authorized sales rep is a standard policy with many companies, especially when you consider the product. 

How did they blow you off? By letter or just no reply? If you had no reply was it sent with delivery notification? Nothing against the mail delivery but my stuff gets lost or I get other peoples mail all the time. They claim it's a new mail sorter. How long did you wait for the response? you have delivery time both ways then internal mail room, assignment of someone to address the problem and write you a response. Personally I would have called the corporate office because letters can take a longer time to get a response. You could be looking at 6 weeks or more for an answer by snail mail or instant one by phone.

Your problem was with the Distributor for not having more then one person qualified to sell the saws or for poor employee retention.

I don't have a problem with the complaints your making if there justified. I'm just wondering if your upset with the right place and if you choose the right approach to a speedy solution. If not if you allowed enough time for the response before you say they blew you off.

I bought and had a problem with some smoothie rims I gave my daughter for her 55 Bel Air. The 1/2 moons were rusting right out the box. I called the dealer and was told 4 weeks later they were not allowed to even talk with the Rim Company "Wheel pro" I think. They bought up most of the independent companies and control almost all of the after market wheels/rims. I was told it was Wheel Pro that was the problem. I gave them another 2 weeks to get me the 1/2 moons elsewhere and they failed. I called Wheel Pro talked to the local sales rep who informed me the dealer I bought them from had not paid there bill in over 6 months. He offered to mail them to another dealer in my area for free. I had then 3 days later.

I'm pretty sure in this case a phone call to SS would have resulted in a faster response and solution.


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## Nate1778

rrbrown said:


> I'm pretty sure in this case a phone call to SS would have resulted in a faster response and solution.





Yep, They still call and check on me from time to time to make sure I am happy with my purchase. 

I too am glad you found a saw that fills the bill.


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## cocheseuga

J.C. said:


> I don't have any first hand knowledge but, it's my understanding one of the reasons it's not available on small portable saws is because they haven't yet figured out how to get it to work without destroying the saw. Looking at my little bosch saw, I would expect it to be in pieces if I jambed something into the blade. It hardly stays together as it is.


I have to agree here.

I finally got to see a live demonstration yesterday at the show, and I'll tell you there's no mistaking that sound for anything other than taking a 500lb weight and dropping it off the side of a building. The force needed to make that sound has to be massive.


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## Lostinwoods

Even if a sheer bolt didn't work (but despite the speed we are only talking a few pounds of mass, sure if we are talking relativistic speeds it could do some damage but have you seen the speed and mass of those huge rotary plows they use in heavy snow areas like Donner Summit? They are protected by a sheer bolt.), I'd rather have to buy a new saw than a new finger. What I'm wonder is how much weight it adds, perhaps that's the problem.


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## Artisan1993

I have used a sawstop and I have no idea what some people are talking about with it being under powered and poor performing, I've ripped through pieces of hard maple with that thing like it was butter and the edge was so smooth you could hardly tell it had just been sawed...best saw I've ever used and I definitely plan on getting one of my own ASAP, mostly because I kind of like my fingers being attached to my hands, I'm willing to pay a little extra cash to maintain that situation in the event of a accident


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## rrich

I had forgotten.... 

I actually talked to Saw Stop customer service, both E-Mail and over the phone. I wanted to purchase a SS part, the magnifying cursor for the fence ruler. 

OK. It is NOT the sale of the century, in fact most sales people will not enthusiastically process the order. As I recall, the part was less than $10. Then there was either a "Packing" or a "Short Order" charge, $20 and a shipping charge of $20. So it was $45 to $50 for a $10 part. I asked about "Will Call". The answer was that the charges would be about the same. I didn't go into it any further.

I went to a local store that was a SS dealer to order the part. They started to explain the charges and I interrupted to say that I already knew about them. Then I suggested that they could just order the cursor with their normal order. They said it might be a month or six weeks. My response was, "Let me pay you now." About a month later I had the cursor. 

Reading Between The Lines

It appears that SS treats their dealers just like the buying public. So I don't feel like The Lone Ranger.

BTW - The magnifying cursor works great on the Biesemeyer fence.


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## Domer

I have always been reluctant to buy major pieces of equipment from people at shows. 

I bought mine from Woodcraft in KC and was treated great. I did not have to pay for the saw until it arrived. 

You have to look at the small purchase from the manufacturers perspective. Although the part only cost $10, it does cost them to pick pack and ship the order. UPS or FexEx has minimum charges which they have to pay as well.

When you went to your local company, they were able to help you for considerably less. You had a choice of getting the part earlier and paying more or getting it later and paying less. 

Domer


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## Joe Pack

Outstanding saw, with or without the safety features. 3hp is plenty for the typical woodworker, and, with a good blade, cuts oak like butter. Add in the safety feature, and it is, in my humble opinion, a no-brainer. My fingers are worth the extra money. I am a SAFE woodworker, but I also know I can have one second of inattention and a finger is gone. Not one woodworker who lost a finger to a table saw ever said, "Hey, I think I'll do something stupid and cut off a finger." Accidents happen; people get careless. It only takes one time to be called "Stubby" the rest of your life.


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## del schisler

Domer said:


> I have always been reluctant to buy major pieces of equipment from people at shows.
> 
> I bought mine from Woodcraft in KC and was treated great. I did not have to pay for the saw until it arrived.
> 
> You have to look at the small purchase from the manufacturers perspective. Although the part only cost $10, it does cost them to pick pack and ship the order. UPS or FexEx has minimum charges which they have to pay as well.
> 
> When you went to your local company, they were able to help you for considerably less. You had a choice of getting the part earlier and paying more or getting it later and paying less.
> 
> Domer


I would like to add my 2 cent's to the cost of the $10 part. The people that work their are getting paid ? so why charge the customer to pick and pack they are paid already. so the company is making double money or your are paying the company person salary ?? Most company's can ship with usps with free box's but pay a flat rate. Their are a min price on shipping and weight on shipper's other than the usps. I know not all part's will fit in the flate rate box's. But a small part like a beiring for a band saw size dia 1 1/2" in size can ship in a bubble package for less than a dollar. But the big company will charge a rate of $7 or $8 for the same. Me i tell them to keep the item. I will go some where else. They may some day stand their and wonder where the busisness went. I know the above can change but that is just my 2 cent's sorry to hijack


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## Treeoflifestairs.com

I own a saw stop for my stair company. I've used two other unisaws before the saw stop. I can't say I am displeased in any way with it. I was surprised at how well written the instruction/user manuals were written and their phone support was exceptional too.

As far as the saw itself it is just as accurate and powerful as the unisaws but has the additional safety feature. A previous poster mentioned that you needed to buy a lot of other parts that it didn't come with. This wasn't my experience at all. I picked which model and size I wanted and it came with exactly what was needed. They do have optional accessories like a mobile base but that's the same with all manufacturers. 

Lastly, I was unaware of the politics regarding Mr. Glass but honestly that would influence me little to none. I got a great product and receive great service from the company. Why should it matter if he is trying to his technology mandated whether it is for safety reasons or monetary.


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## Benny Blanco

Those saws will suffer major damage from crashing the blade to a halt like that.
New motor, belts, and arbor is on the short list, there could be much more damage to repair.
It would not be safe to re-use the arbor, it would be bent anyway, same with the motor shaft.

After a crash, any machine is just not the same.


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## Bradabernethy

Although I agree with the unit in principle, there is one glaring problem with the saw stop. Complacency. I work in a school wood shop. If a student gets used to the saw stop, and is therefore not as careful as they could be, they could then be exposed to another saw at home or in another shop without the device and could then have a severe accident. This is something that no one considers. This scares me!
:huh:


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## beelzerob

Benny Blanco said:


> Those saws will suffer major damage from crashing the blade to a halt like that.
> New motor, belts, and arbor is on the short list, there could be much more damage to repair.
> It would not be safe to re-use the arbor, it would be bent anyway, same with the motor shaft.
> 
> After a crash, any machine is just not the same.



Even if that *is* true (which I don't believe historical data supports), I'm pretty sure the cost of buying a completely new saw after tripping the brake is still cheaper than the medical costs of typical tablesaw accidents.....AND you get to keep your fingers!


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## beelzerob

Bradabernethy said:


> Although I agree with the unit in principle, there is one glaring problem with the saw stop. Complacency. I work in a school wood shop. If a student gets used to the saw stop, and is therefore not as careful as they could be, they could then be exposed to another saw at home or in another shop without the device and could then have a severe accident. This is something that no one considers. This scares me!
> :huh:


Complacency is a problem no matter what you do. Almost every aircraft crash involving human error comes back to complacency, and I can't think of a better deterrent to that than the thought of falling out of the sky (but it still happens). I'm pretty sure a lot of the table saw accidents that happen are also because of complacency, no matter the brand of saw used or its features.

If increasing the danger helps prevent future complacency, then why use blade guards?

Now, if you're talking about people being intentionally reckless because they believe the saw will not hurt them....well, there's no helping people like that.


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## rrbrown

Benny Blanco said:


> Those saws will suffer major damage from crashing the blade to a halt like that.
> New motor, belts, and arbor is on the short list, there could be much more damage to repair.
> It would not be safe to re-use the arbor, it would be bent anyway, same with the motor shaft.
> 
> After a crash, any machine is just not the same.


What proof would you have for that statement? Any normal saw yes I could see it but this saw is designed so absorb those forces which is the exact reason the technology can not be retrofitted to other saws.



Bradabernethy said:


> Although I agree with the unit in principle, there is one glaring problem with the saw stop. Complacency. I work in a school wood shop. If a student gets used to the saw stop, and is therefore not as careful as they could be, they could then be exposed to another saw at home or in another shop without the device and could then have a severe accident. This is something that no one considers. This scares me!
> :huh:


Have you ever used a Saw Stop? If so would you feel comfortable putting your finger in that blade while it was spinning? 

I own a Saw Stop and I can tell you there is no way in hell it makes you feel over confident. You still have respect for what that blade could do. Anyone that don't is an idiot and shouldn't be using equipment at all.


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## Benny Blanco

In a demonstration, where the "guy" stuck his finger near the blade "stopping the saw". The entire top was covered with plexiglass about a foot up from the table.
Many things can happen when crashing a machine to a sudden stop, such as the blade shattering, and or the very small arbor snapping off- launching the blade out. I noticed they use a larger bearing at the flange side of the arbor, giving extra thickness there.

When the shoe crashes the blade, the forces built up in the motor drive assembly, causes that assembly to drop below the table, via cutch, shear pin, or other
The forces involved are just to great to absorb completly in a short distance.

The blade would be very tight on the arbor after crashing, I would think taking the small 5/8" threads way past the elastic limit, thus it would not be wise to reuse even if not bent.

Just some observations on what is not being said, regarding the so called "high technology" of crashing a machine to a sudden stop.


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## beelzerob

So what you're saying is it can't, because you don't see how it can, and Sawstop is saying it can, because they designed and tested it to do that.

Sawstop isn't a new product, it's been out awhile. I'd think that if it were proving to be a disposable saw, we'd be hearing more about that by now.

Just because something is "not being said" doesn't mean there actually is something to say.


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## rrbrown

Benny Blanco said:


> In a demonstration, where the "guy" stuck his finger near the blade "stopping the saw". The entire top was covered with plexiglass about a foot up from the table.
> Many things can happen when crashing a machine to a sudden stop, such as the blade shattering, and or the very small arbor snapping off- launching the blade out. I noticed they use a larger bearing at the flange side of the arbor, giving extra thickness there.
> 
> When the shoe crashes the blade, the forces built up in the motor drive assembly, causes that assembly to drop below the table, via cutch, shear pin, or other
> The forces involved are just to great to absorb completly in a short distance.
> 
> The blade would be very tight on the arbor after crashing, I would think taking the small 5/8" threads way past the elastic limit, thus it would not be wise to reuse even if not bent.
> 
> Just some observations on what is not being said, regarding the so called "high technology" of crashing a machine to a sudden stop.


Why don't you just say no I have no proof, I'm just guessing.

My brother in law works at a place that has military contracts. The have a few of the saws and have set there's off several times each usually for a staple or something in the wood. They use full kerf blades and have a safety official determine if they re-use the blade. Personally I wouldn't but If you ever looked under the table at the guts of a SawStop you might actually think differently. It's not designed like a regular saw.


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## Benny Blanco

Dont be so testy, I just am curious about this system.
I happen to be an expert by default on machine tools, use, buy-sell and repair.
I state by default, because I am the old guy now, the others have passed away.

I have seen many crashed machines of low horse power like these saws, always severe damage is the result.
I use the term crash, because that is what happens on these saws.

I have looked at these saws at Woodcraft in Spokane Wa, the expert there could not answer any of my questions.


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## rrbrown

Benny Blanco said:


> Dont be so testy, I just am curious about this system.
> I happen to be an expert by default on machine tools, use, buy-sell and repair.
> I state by default, because I am the old guy now, the others have passed away.


Well if by testy you mean calling someone out from making statements that they evidently have no proof of, then NO.

How can you be curious about something and an expert at the same time. Your previous statements about the SawStop and how it will fall apart was stated as a fact as if you were right. They were also stated as if you were an expert. Now your just interested in these saws and how they work.

As for being an expert. You definitely can't be an expert by default because the other experts passed away. Your either an expert or not an expert. Judging from some of your post I'm going to lean more towards not, especially on the Saw Stop technology.



Benny Blanco said:


> I have seen many crashed machines of low horse power like these saws, always severe damage is the result.
> I use the term crash, because that is what happens on these saws.


Really you have seen many crashed saws like this. Yet, No reports about any crashed Saw Stops have hit the media or web. Interesting that you have the only ones. 


Benny Blanco said:


> I have looked at these saws at Woodcraft in Spokane Wa, the expert there could not answer any of my questions.


As for the expert at woodcraft they are generally called salesmen around here. They only know what it takes to sell a saw. I'm not sure about Woodcraft but I guess it's the same.

If you have questions call SawStop technical support and ask questions other then that buy one, use it, take it apart what ever you like then when you have something that is a fact come back and show us.

My whole problem with your post is it lacks facts and is condemning a product that you obviously have no idea what your talking about.


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## Benny Blanco

You seem to think I am condemning this product only when I ask questions about "what happens" afterward.

There is nothing different about a table saw suddenly being stopped, vrs any other piece of equipment.

My whole problem with your post is, dont ask any questions, buy the F%*#ing thing and shut up!

Just because you bought one, certainly doesnt have any bearing on me buying one.


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## rrbrown

Benny Blanco said:


> Those saws will suffer major damage from crashing the blade to a halt like that.
> New motor, belts, and arbor is on the short list, there could be much more damage to repair.
> It would not be safe to re-use the arbor, it would be bent anyway, same with the motor shaft.
> 
> After a crash, any machine is just not the same.


This was the first post you made on the subject that started it all. If that is not condemning and sounding if it was coming from a known source of fact or an expert which you later claim you were then i don't know what is.



Benny Blanco said:


> You seem to think I am condemning this product only when I ask questions about "what happens" afterward.
> 
> There is nothing different about a table saw suddenly being stopped, vrs any other piece of equipment.
> 
> My whole problem with your post is, dont ask any questions, buy the F%*#ing thing and shut up!
> 
> Just because you bought one, certainly doesnt have any bearing on me buying one.


I suggest you go back and read all our post again. 

I stated it's not like a normal saw it is built differently and that's why it can't be retrofitted.

I asked what proof you had. You still provide none

I also stated call there tech support and ask questions or buy one use it, take it apart or what ever.

As for your last post again nothing factual about it. So either check your attitude and provide some proof or call there tech support like I said earlier. 

This horse is dead and the fat lady was singing as Elvis left the building. Translation if needed, this argument is over. :laughing::laughing:


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## woodnthings

*you both have valid points*

Yes any time a motor is just down abruptly some damage can "possibly" occur. Engine lathes that are stopped and reversed don't seem to have any issues. I remember reading that the motor and arbor is specifically designed for the shock of an abrupt stop, that's part of the additional expense. I could be wrong about that, I donno? :blink:

I happen to have a 19" Grizzly bandsaw with the motor brake, on the 3 HP motor. I does slam down abruptly when the off button is pushed. I have no longevity history of that feature, so I can't speak on that issue except some engineer thought it was a worthy idea. I like that safety feature since a large bandsaw ill spool down for several minutes after being turned off. It does take a second or 2 compared to the Saw Stop which takes only a milli-second or so, if I remember correctly.

I don't see the point of this part of the discussion, harm to the motor etc. because it can't yet be verified and will take some market feedback to determine if indeed it is an issue..... 
So I would not make a big deal of it. JMO.  bill


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## Nate1778

Man there is a lot of theory out there on this saw. 

I have one and have had it for about three years now, set the break twice once at full throttle, the saw cuts as true as the day it was bought. It is violent but if you look at the actual saw itself it is designed to "stop". I do agree till you test drive one before or after comments like above are silliness now matter the experience on other saws.

As far as complacency, I as well as RR have had encounters with a spinning saw blade. I assure you every time I hear the banshee scream of the saw blade come to life I fear it. I don't care it the blade comes to a complete stop, and makes ice cream, my butt uses every precaution.

You want to talk complacency, take a guy whom has been using a saw no matter the manufacturer and never had an accident. Give him 20 years of accident free life and I'll show you complacency. 

The sad fact of the matter and RR will agree, I know him from Adam but we share a common bond, is most buy a sawstop after an incident. All of the sudden it makes sense. There are those that have had a accident and those that will. 

I guarantee you one thing as I have many times in the past, sit there in the ER with a hand in the shop towel and the feature and it's cost ARE VERY CHEAP.


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## MagGeorge

This is a good invention. However, I do not agree with it being mandatory. Let the people decide what they want to do with their fingers.


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## Bradabernethy

Have you ever used a Saw Stop? If so would you feel comfortable putting your finger in that blade while it was spinning? 

I own a Saw Stop and I can tell you there is no way in hell it makes you feel over confident. You still have respect for what that blade could do. Anyone that don't is an idiot and shouldn't be using equipment at all.[/QUOTE]

No, I have not. I have seen the stop in action though used with a hot dog. I would feel very afraid having one in a school shop environment because students take chances that they shouldn't. My fear is they would intentionally stick their fingers in the blade to stop it..or as I said before, become complacent and simply forget common safety rules. That is my problem. As a shop teacher, it is a justified concern.


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## woodnthings

QUOTE:
*My fear is they would intentionally stick their fingers in the blade to stop it..or as I said before, become complacent and simply forget common safety rules. That is my problem. As a shop teacher, it is a justified concern. *
My .02 cents:
Complacency was my very first concern way back when they came out also. I have a different take as a former "Shop" Instructor at the college level where the kids are a bit older than high school and may have more respect. 

I would still have one in the shop if I were in charge of requisitions since in many ways they are very well designed, heavy duty, and well made besides the safety aspect. 

There would be strict warnings about "intentional" use of the 
safety feature and serious consequences including dismissal from school, payment for the blade and cartridge, and hours of shop cleaning as a punishment for horseplay. I think it could be managed in that manner. I also taught about 20 female sophomores in a Design class as well and we only lost the tip of one fingernail on the disc sander...that's it.
The bandsaw was used primarily since some of the projects had a bunch of curved surfaces. That machine is also scary with the blade guard full up and a novice pushing a chunk of wood through.....  It would also be a good candidate for the "flesh sensing" technology in my opinion.


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## Nate1778

woodnthings said:


> QUOTE:
> *My fear is they would intentionally stick their fingers in the blade to stop it..or as I said before, become complacent and simply forget common safety rules. That is my problem. As a shop teacher, it is a justified concern. *
> My .02 cents:
> Complacency was my very first concern way back when they came out also.



To the first point, Sawstop is designed to prevent accidents, it will not stop stupidity. 

Complacency creates accidents in anything we do. None of us get into a vehicle and buckle up and feel better that we wont die today. We understand there is still a risk in driving a vehicle, the seat belt is simply there to keep us a bit more safe.


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## woodnthings

Nate1778 said:


> To the first point, Sawstop is designed to prevent accidents, it will not stop *stupidity. *
> 
> *Complacency* creates accidents in anything we do. None of us get into a vehicle and buckle up and feel better that we wont die today. We understand there is still a risk in driving a vehicle, the seat belt is simply there to keep us a bit more safe.


Complacency and stupidity are "individual" characteristics and can't be predetermined, so the Saw Stop falls on both sides of that discussion. Some operators may get complacent and rely on the technology, others may just do "stupid" things and put themselves in harms way.... it's unpredictable and unmeasurable in my opinion.

I would have one if I wasn't already maxed out on table saws. I like the design, and construction. I've just resigned myself to not get complacent and to not do anything "stupid" although I've come close a few times..... :thumbdown: I rely on my fixed splitter a great deal now and wouldn't be without one. I use overarm blade cover with dust collection which also functions as a blade guard.


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## Nate1778

I think we can all agree a steady mind and respect are the biggest safety tools in the shop no matter the tool. The added protection is just that, added protection.


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## marly

I’m a novice wood worker and I make breadboards, Adirondack chairs, etc. I’m definitely no expert. I bought a Sawstop two years ago. I like my Sawstop and I thought it was worth the price. What made me decide to purchase it was when rrbrown had his accident. It made me realize, no matter how careful you are, things can and do happen. 

People have the freedom of choice to decide to purchase the Sawstop or not. The government shouldn’t get in the way of forcing people to buy something that they don’t want to do buy. The only exception to this is if we call it a “SawStop mandate”, then it becomes perfectly constitutional (as we found out with Obamacare), because it’s really just a tax. So I guess you really can make people purchase stuff they don’t want to. 

My point is that Mr. Glass pushing the Sawstop is just good business sense. You shouldn’t be mad at him, but you should be mad at the idiots that pass the laws that could make the Sawstop mandatory.


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## ryan50hrl

marly said:


> I’m a novice wood worker and I make breadboards, Adirondack chairs, etc. I’m definitely no expert. I bought a Sawstop two years ago. I like my Sawstop and I thought it was worth the price. What made me decide to purchase it was when rrbrown had his accident. It made me realize, no matter how careful you are, things can and do happen.
> 
> People have the freedom of choice to decide to purchase the Sawstop or not. The government shouldn’t get in the way of forcing people to buy something that they don’t want to do buy. The only exception to this is if we call it a “SawStop mandate”, then it becomes perfectly constitutional (as we found out with Obamacare), because it’s really just a tax. So I guess you really can make people purchase stuff they don’t want to.
> 
> My point is that Mr. Glass pushing the Sawstop is just good business sense. You shouldn’t be mad at him, but you should be mad at the idiots that pass the laws that could make the Sawstop mandatory.



No ones forcing you to purchase health insurance, they're just making it uncomfortable to not do so. Same thing happens with ladders all the time, you buy a ladder, it doesn't cost the company 100 dollars to make the ladder, it costs them 20, and they put the other 80 in the legal fund to cover their rears when you fall off their product and sue. We're all paying more for table saws than we should i'd bet, i'm fairly confident the saw manufacturers (at least the companies that have been around a bit), have a legal slush fund thats being funded by every tool purchase to cover themselves in the event that you loose a finger and sue. 

Sawstop makes good sense, I don't own one currently, but I sure intend to for my next saw. The saw companies are probably going to be kicking themselves when they find it no longer attractive to ignore the technology and sawstop charges them double!!!


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## 65BAJA

For those of you that have had the 3hp Delta Unisaw and the 3hp Sawstop PCS which one do you like more? I was looking at the two of them at my local Woodcraft and the PCS was a few hundred less than the Unisaw. I'm leaning toward the 3hp PCS.


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## craigwbryant

Wow...popped in to see opinion on a saw I'm considering and wound up getting a dose of neo-classical economic political theory/debate and education in "engineering" LOL. In all honesty, as a degreed engineer (BS in Electrical currently a MS student in Civil) I have had some questions for awhile about how the saw does withstand the forces involved with stopping that blade so quickly. There are a lot of moment forces involved in spinning a blade at the RPMs that a tablesaw spins a blade at, the old calculation of force= mass*acceleration tells me that if you force that second term to zero, then all the kinetic energy built up by all of the angular acceleration/velocity has to go "somewhere" (simple application of the conservation of mass/energy theorem). All that being said I'm amazed that the blade can be stopped that quickly and the saw remain in one piece, much less be reusable. Truly a feat of engineering. I haven't actually seen a sawstop post brake event (thankfully), but I would imagine that if every time that brake was tripped the entire $3400 saw had to be replaced that SS would have a hard time marketing their product. I'm a bit cautious (ironic that I used to jump from planes in the Army) and I think if I did have a saw that the brake was tripped on I would have the entire thing inspected by a certified individual before putting it back into use, just for my own piece of mind. Eventually when the Army stops making me move every 3-4 years I will upgrade to a SS, I have a 3-month old and by that time he'll be old enough to start coming out into the garage/shop with me (something I look forward to) and as I've learned over the past 3 months you really can't put a price on piece of mind when it comes to your children. While I think it's a bit savvy of the inventor to attempt to have the technology "mandated" and ensure himself a never ending income stream (from a pure $$ perspective it would be a coup of epic proportions), I hope that our regulatory bodies say "it's great that the technology exists and is available, but this is free market, make your product appealing enough that you force your competitors to change and adapt" and allow market forces to drive the train versus legislation, after watching the debacle in DC this weekend I think the last thing we need is to have our legislators get involved in shop safety!


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## cabinetman

craigwbryant said:


> I'm a bit cautious (ironic that I used to jump from planes in the Army) and I think if I did have a saw that the brake was tripped on I would have the entire thing inspected by a certified individual before putting it back into use, just for my own piece of mind.


Not really ironic. Your take has some merit. I too did my share of jumps, but me...I'd just check it myself.

BTW...I'll bet Fayetteville is a bit different now than when I was at Ft. Bragg.









 







.


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## Toller

BassBlaster said:


> many people complain that there are a lot of parts that need to be upgraded on that saw right out of the box.


I got my PCS last week. I haven't used it much (my cyclone isn't due in until next week) but I can't see anything that needs to be upgraded. Can you be more specific?

Well, maybe the pushstick. I prefer blocks.


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## spark0506

I bought a Sawstop about 18 months back. After many years of wanting a wood shop I had finally pulled the trigger and added the space. I’d wanted to upgrade for quite a while from my old Delta contractors table saw and buy myself a good cabinet saw. I planned on trying to find a nice used Unisaw or Powermatic…. At the time I didn’t know much about the SS. At first the price kind of threw me but once I spent some time looking at the SS saw and understanding the technology I was convinced I had to have it. I just felt that if I didn’t bite the bullet and spend the money for the SS that sure as heck I’d have an accident and dearly regret that decision. I haven’t looked back and love the saw. I was going to keep my older saw and use it just for dado work but decided not to and bought the 8” dado brake for the SS. It takes me just a few minutes to make the changeover so it’s no big deal time wise.

This past summer I let someone use the saw to rip some wet cedar planks and the moisture in the wood tripped the brake. I wasn’t in the shop at the time but was there just after it tripped. It was a bit of a struggle to get the brake and the blade off the saw. It was a nice Forrest blade and the brake had torn off a few of the carbide tips. I’ve heard that under such circumstances the blade could probably be repaired but I decided to throw it away. I didn’t trust using it again. The saw itself looked fine. I inspected everything closely and was actually surprised that after putting on a new blade and brake that everything worked just like before. I’ve had no issues from the brake being tripped. BTW….The guy that tripped the brake said it scared the crap out of him and happened so quickly he didn’t see anything. He apologized and wanted to pay me for the blade and brake but I told him it was my fault because I forgot to tell him about using the bypass switch for wet and green wood. Even though those parts are not cheap….brake 69.00…blade 100.00 it didn’t really bother me that much. I felt it was an excellent “test” on the brake system.

I’m sure like everyone here I try to be very safety conscious with every tool in my shop and certainly try not to ever get careless and complacent on the table saw….but….I have to say that knowing that its built with this state of the art brake system does give me some piece of mind. I feel like I’ve bought the best safety system currently available for table saws and I feel very good about that.


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## johnjf0622

I always thought the SawStop was a great product. Especially for the school woodshop settings and manufacturing setting. I learned woodworking on an old Oliver table saw that was older than me in high school. Anyone who has used them know they are very powerful machines. I developed a strong respect for any table saw when I watch a fellow student get a piece of 1x12x48 piece of pine thrown back at him from a kick back. It sent him flying back flat on his butt. The mark it left on him was not pretty either. 
After getting out of the Army and getting back into working with wood,The one thing I always made clear was no one was to bother me when I was cutting on the table saw. I wont say I have gone through life with out incident. I did have a kick back that opened my eyes and sent me out of the garage and downing beers on the poarch for the rest of the day. 
I do make sure where all my didgets are when cutting and make sure I have them when I am done cutting. I am not tring to say if you buy that saw it is because you dont know what you are doing. Accidents happen and it can't be reversed. This is just my take on the subject and why I don't own one. 
BUT........ As I get older and I stat to feel that I am uncomfortable with my present Grizzly 3hp saw. I will look to change to one with this kind of safety feature. Besides I am sure in the new few years there will be more choices of brand name saws to choose from also.


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## Itchytoe

While I'll readily admit that the SawStop technology is awesome and can stop you from cutting off a digit, it also causes as much of a problem as it fixes. Why? Because it makes you not as careful around the saw as you would be otherwise. People, by their nature, are more careful when they don't have a safety net. Give a man a sufficient safety net, with secondary, or even more redundant nets, and they will jump out of an otherwise perfectly good airplane. They'll freefall miles to the ground because of that safety net. Take away that safety net and see if how many of then still jump. We have plenty of military vets here, without the chute (safety net), would you jump out of that airplane?

Having a big safety net at your table saw can make you lose respect for the dangers in your other tools too. It can make you more complacent around all of your tools because you feel safer. Making someone complacent or less respectful of their tools is a bad thing every time it happens. I know what you're thinking, "Well a blade guard does that too.", but no, it doesn't. A blade guard keeps you away from the dangerous rotating blade that can take off your fingers (or more). With a SS, nothing keeps you away from the blade, it just makes the blade less of a danger. That's why you lose respect for blades with a SS, but not with a blade guard (or whatever other normal safety device you want to put there). 

Yes, a SS can make people not lose fingers to table saws, but it can make you lose more fingers to every other woodworking machine out there because it changes how you view the dangers of blades. Table saw amputations are done because someone messed up, not because the saw jumped up and tried to eat them. Table saws, like guns, are completely safe. People on the other hand are not so safe. Blaming the table saw for someone losing a finger is the same as blaming a gun for a killing. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Table saws don't cut off fingers, people cut off fingers. That spinning blade isn't the problem. Not respecting it (a person's action, or lack thereof) is the problem.

Trying to make the world idiot-proof only succeeds in breeding bigger idiots. We want smarter people, not bigger idiots.


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## rrbrown

Itchytoe said:


> While I'll readily admit that the SawStop technology is awesome and can stop you from cutting off a digit, it also causes as much of a problem as it fixes. Why? Because it makes you not as careful around the saw as you would be otherwise. People, by their nature, are more careful when they don't have a safety net. Give a man a sufficient safety net, with secondary, or even more redundant nets, and they will jump out of an otherwise perfectly good airplane. They'll freefall miles to the ground because of that safety net. Take away that safety net and see if how many of then still jump. We have plenty of military vets here, without the chute (safety net), would you jump out of that airplane?
> 
> Having a big safety net at your table saw can make you lose respect for the dangers in your other tools too. It can make you more complacent around all of your tools because you feel safer. Making someone complacent or less respectful of their tools is a bad thing every time it happens. I know what you're thinking, "Well a blade guard does that too.", but no, it doesn't. A blade guard keeps you away from the dangerous rotating blade that can take off your fingers (or more). With a SS, nothing keeps you away from the blade, it just makes the blade less of a danger. That's why you lose respect for blades with a SS, but not with a blade guard (or whatever other normal safety device you want to put there).
> 
> Yes, a SS can make people not lose fingers to table saws, but it can make you lose more fingers to every other woodworking machine out there because it changes how you view the dangers of blades. Table saw amputations are done because someone messed up, not because the saw jumped up and tried to eat them. Table saws, like guns, are completely safe. People on the other hand are not so safe. Blaming the table saw for someone losing a finger is the same as blaming a gun for a killing. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Table saws don't cut off fingers, people cut off fingers. That spinning blade isn't the problem. Not respecting it (a person's action, or lack thereof) is the problem.
> 
> Trying to make the world idiot-proof only succeeds in breeding bigger idiots. We want smarter people, not bigger idiots.


While I'm sure most if not everyone on here with a SawStop will agree. It's still a spinning blade that demands respect. I don't take any more chances then I did without the safety net. I will concede that it may be possible with some new saw users. I still think you have to be pretty stupid to not respect the saw.

I have anti-lock brakes, stability control seat belts and air bags. That's all pretty redundant and I don't think it makes people more reckless then if they didn't ave all those safety features. 

I don't think it would apply to the majority of people. However, you can't fix stupid and they do have stupid drivers and saw operators so anything is possible with those individuals.


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## Itchytoe

Yea, your vehicle has stability control, seat belts, airbags, and lots of other safety features. I see those as I see pawls, guards, push sticks, and riving knives. Drive your car into a tree at 90 mph and you're still probably going to die. Shove your hand in the blade of a saw equipped with all those features and you're still probably going to be short a body part. The SS eliminates the danger (stops the blade and pulls it under the table), but your car doesn't have anything like that. That tree is still there and you're still likely to die. If your car had a way to somehow uproot the tree and move it so that you didn't hit it, that would be a SS for cars. Then you wouldn't worry as much about hitting a tree because the tree will be moved for you. With a SS, you don't have to worry as much about touching the blade because it will be moved for you. I'm sure you would still avoid running your car into trees, but those trees would no longer have the same consequence, therefore they wouldn't pose the same threat and wouldn't warrant the same respect. You'd still respect it, but not to the same degree as before. Same thing with your saw blade and SS. Respecting one spinning blade at 95% instead of 100% leads to respecting all blades at 95% instead of 100%. That's a bad thing. Making something less dangerous automatically makes the vast majority of people more comfortable around them, which translates into them being less respecting/fearful of those same items.

That's what I was trying to illustrate with my examples. I guess I didn't do that well. Remember, you've had a table saw accident already (it was a table saw wasn't it?) so you likely have twice the respect for those blades as people who haven't had any close calls. You're also more likely to keep that respect regardless of any safety features since you know from personal experience what that can cost you. You were lucky enough to have had an accident. Lucky in that you won't lose any respect for moving blades, not lucky in that you have a short finger and hospital bill because of it. *I tried retyping that a few different ways and no matter how I say it, it sounds odd. Hopefully you understand what I mean. Nobody is lucky to almost loose a finger*


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## rrbrown

Itchytoe said:


> Yea, your vehicle has stability control, seat belts, airbags, and lots of other safety features. I see those as I see pawls, guards, push sticks, and riving knives. Drive your car into a tree at 90 mph and you're still probably going to die. Shove your hand in the blade of a saw equipped with all those features and you're still probably going to be short a body part. The SS eliminates the danger (stops the blade and pulls it under the table), but your car doesn't have anything like that. That tree is still there and you're still likely to die. If your car had a way to somehow uproot the tree and move it so that you didn't hit it, that would be a SS for cars. Then you wouldn't worry as much about hitting a tree because the tree will be moved for you. With a SS, you don't have to worry as much about touching the blade because it will be moved for you. I'm sure you would still avoid running your car into trees, but those trees would no longer have the same consequence, therefore they wouldn't pose the same threat and wouldn't warrant the same respect. You'd still respect it, but not to the same degree as before. Same thing with your saw blade and SS. Respecting one spinning blade at 95% instead of 100% leads to respecting all blades at 95% instead of 100%. That's a bad thing. Making something less dangerous automatically makes the vast majority of people more comfortable around them, which translates into them being less respecting/fearful of those same items.
> 
> That's what I was trying to illustrate with my examples. I guess I didn't do that well. Remember, you've had a table saw accident already (it was a table saw wasn't it?) so you likely have twice the respect for those blades as people who haven't had any close calls. You're also more likely to keep that respect regardless of any safety features since you know from personal experience what that can cost you. You were lucky enough to have had an accident. Lucky in that you won't lose any respect for moving blades, not lucky in that you have a short finger and hospital bill because of it. *I tried retyping that a few different ways and no matter how I say it, it sounds odd. Hopefully you understand what I mean. Nobody is lucky to almost loose a finger*


:laughing::laughing: no I get it. Kind of don't sound right anyway you say it but you have to in order to get the point across. You actually did pretty good.

I can see that point and I know others that still wouldn't trust it 100% so the deal is pretend it don't exist. I know easy for me to say, and the people that know me also have my knowledge to influence. 

So would you trust that it would work 100% of the time. Can you stick you finger in there to test it. I have a saw if you want to try. Your mind will probably still say f**k that. I know Gass himself had a hard time doing it and he only put the very outside edge of the tip of his finger. He did it to sell saws. I know I wouldn't test it with my fingers. 

You never know about stupid though. I watched some dumb ass test a bullet proof vest by letting his friend shoot him. He was to close and it almost killed him. :laughing:


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## Itchytoe

rrbrown said:


> You never know about stupid though. I watched some dumb ass test a bullet proof vest by letting his friend shoot him. He was to close and it almost killed him. :laughing:


That one on youtube where his buddy shot him right in the heart about 3 feet from him? I saw that one too. He took the vest off and you could see the blood running down his chest. People that stupid shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.


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## cabinetman

Itchytoe said:


> People, by their nature, are more careful when they don't have a safety net. Give a man a sufficient safety net, with secondary, or even more redundant nets, and they will jump out of an otherwise perfectly good airplane. They'll freefall miles to the ground because of that safety net. Take away that safety net and see if how many of then still jump. We have plenty of military vets here, without the chute (safety net), would you jump out of that airplane?


That analogy boarders lunacy. It doesn't make sense.



Itchytoe said:


> Having a big safety net at your table saw can make you lose respect for the dangers in your other tools too. It can make you more complacent around all of your tools because you feel safer. Making someone complacent or less respectful of their tools is a bad thing every time it happens.


I don't agree with that thinking. It's generalized to make a point. One doesn't have anything to do with the other, IMO. It takes a certain degree of concentration while operating any device. None of them are really mindless. If they become that way...the operator becomes prone to injury. An example is the zipper on our pants.



Itchytoe said:


> I know what you're thinking, "Well a blade guard does that too.", but no, it doesn't. A blade guard keeps you away from the dangerous rotating blade that can take off your fingers (or more). With a SS, nothing keeps you away from the blade, it just makes the blade less of a danger. That's why you lose respect for blades with a SS, but not with a blade guard (or whatever other normal safety device you want to put there).


Have you seen a Saw Stop? They also have blade guards.









 







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## BKBuilds

I like the Saw Stop. I like it because even though I respect the saw and I practice proper safety around it, doesn't mean my friends will. Or if I have a kid that some day they won't figure out how to turn the thing on and have an accident. And before people get bent out of shape about kids and teaching them the right way, ACCIDENTS happen to everyone even the best kids. The Saw Stop provides that extra layer of protection. Safety training, proper techniques, then the brake. I probably wouldn't even tell anyone the saw has that feature and remove the "people get complacent" argument.

The other thing you have to think about is society today. People will sue you even when its clearly their fault. Case in point. My wife an I were hit by a drunk driver almost 3 years ago now. The person was arrested on the spot, blew a .12. T boned my truck as I was backing into my driveway... The drunk is suing us. We did nothing wrong but we are being sued. 

If my neighbor comes over and my wife lets them use my saw, I can at least know that they shouldn't be able to cut their finger off and maybe sue me.


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## vinnypatternmaker

Hi!
Joe...can't agree with you more :thumbsup:! Nearly lost half of my thumb while cutting a "cone shape" on my Delta 14" band saw.
An old timer (love 'em)! afterwards taught me to use a scrap wood as a "push stick and steer the stock much more safely :thumbsup:! Thank you Ray Herman:thumbsup:! Miss you, Ray :icon_cry:!
We use a Saw Stop and wish similar tech. can be applied to other tools! But with less drama :huh:!
Best
Vinny


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## Ninefingers

Speaking as one who lost a thumb many years ago (note my nickname) to a lawn mower (another wonderful sausage maker), I myself can't wait until I can get myself a SawStop.  I'm saving up and hope to have one by spring. I'm not getting it so that I can let my mind wander. Rather, it's to ensure that I keep my remaining nine fingers in case of an *ACCIDENT*. I respect each and every one of those sausage makers in the shop... but accidents happen. In my opinion, if you allow yourself to become complacent in the shop - regardless of safety equipment that might be in place - you are just asking to come up short on appendages, and you shouldn't be out there. Shop safety is paramount, and focus is mandatory.


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## mskomal

I bought a Sawstop 2 years and many projects ago. Love it. The extra cost is far less than a hospital bill. In fact a hand injury will buy 10 of them.


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## mskomal

Test


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## mdntrdr

re-test :smile:


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## jjboozel

a seatbelt is placed in a car in case an accident would happen... It stole you from flying through the windshield if you crash. Do you drive any differently when you don't have a seatbelt on compared to when you don't?? Same thing with a saw stop. It's out in place just in case. And I don't "drive" the saw any less carefully because I know SS is in it. Same way in a car. If I have a seatbelt on I'm not going to drive 20mph faster then if I didn't. I think they are great! I don't want to cause arguments but want people to understand that there not made to make people less safe. And in the end it's still a table saw and people know that. I would never want to set that brake off with my finger..


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