# Best Miter Saw to buy?



## SMLWinds

I admit I am new to woodworking but have been doing my homework and am ready to jump in. I am starting to assemble some core tools for my new shop. I am getting a SawStop for my table saw and want to get a miter saw as well.

I know you guys will have several questions to help best guide me so here are some answers to anticipated questions:
1) I have plenty of space in my shop for whatever equipment is best
2) The saw will be stationary for most all of it's life so having a lightweight or portable saw is not an issue
3) I am new and have ambitions for a wide variety of projects. I do home improvement, am currently building a dock at my river house, I want to make various pieces of furniture, and will be making small boats. So, the more versatile the better!
4) While I do not want to waste money, I am willing and able to spend whatever necessary to have the best quality.

I was thinking because of my anticipated wide variety of uses that I should be looking only at compound sliding dual bevel saws. I like the laser guide option, but you guys can tell me how important it is. Safetly features are an utmost priority, if there are differences between saws. I have read pro's and con's of both 10 and 12 inch saws so I am open to opinions. I lean towards the 12 inch just to make it as versatile as possible. I would much rather spend money to get it now and potentially not use the extra reach rather than ever have a time when I wish I had a few more inches.

Thanks in advance for any help! If there are other factors/features to consider, please let me know!


----------



## SMLWinds

One more thing I thought of...I really like the idea of having a built in clamp so that way I can clamp the wood and keep both of my hands far, far away from the blade. I make a living putting amputated fingers back on so I have a very healthy respect for saws as I enter this hobby and want to maintain the absolute highest safety possible. Thanks!


----------



## mdntrdr

If I were in the market for a new saw... I would buy this one. :smile:


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

I like this one:


----------



## Ozrob

Hi,

I'd go with either a Makita LS1214. 
12" blade 
compound saw

or probably I'd rather go for the Festool Kapex 120, as suggested by Warner Const.
10" blade with 12" reach
compound saw with easy handle adjustment to desired angle
angle "tracing" device to allow you to translate your angle from a wall/ceiling directly to the saw.
Laser guidance
Light enough to move easily and collapses for easy transport. (say to that dock that your building)
excellent customer service (at least here in Aus.)
Just a joy to use.

I have both


Regards,

Rob


----------



## SMLWinds

Thanks for the responses! I am still looking over those recommendations. Why are the prices so drastically different between the different saws? Seems like there are relatively comparable features on some saws but the prices range from $250 to $1900! I don't mind spending more money for a better product, but I'm having a hard time seeing what is so different on the models over $1000 compared to the higher end saws you see at Lowe's or Home Depot for $500 or so.


----------



## NickSaw76

In my opinion, I would get a 12" Sliding miter saw. They are more costly; however, they just make life easier. The 12" blade will let you cut thicker material like 4x4's and the sliding feature obviously increases your cutting length. I can't tell you how many times I've come an inch or so short using a 10" to have to flip the board over to finish completing a cut.

In terms of which one to get, one could debate over that for days. I would stay away from entry level type miter saws like Ryobi, Skil, Harbor Freight and Craftsman. The low pricing of these brands may be tempting but they lack in power and accuracy. For the most part, brands like Dewalt, Bosch, Ridgid, Makita, Hitachi (and there are many others) will be of much better quality and most importantly, accurate. I personally like Dewalt miter saws. Once adjusted, they have always kept their accuracy. I'm also a fan of Ridgid power tools so I would recommend them as well.

There are also a few things you can do to save some money. Lowes gives 10% off if you're a veteran. So if you or someone you know is one bring them along when you make the purchase. Another way to save at lowes is to go to your nearest post office and ask for a change of address packet. They usually include a 10% off coupon for Lowes. As for the Home Depot, a lot of people have been successfull lately using a 20% off coupon from Harbor Freight. 10 or 20 percent off starts to add up.


----------



## Huxleywood

Simple answer, buy a Festool Kapex, you then have 30 days to use it and if you aren't convinced just return it, it is as easy as that. Not really worth the money for rough carpentry but for trim or shop use it is worth the money in my opinion, more so if you make a living with it.

Short of that the Bosch Glider if you are space challenged if not the Milwaukee 6955-20. The Bosch does have some interesting cut limitations so make sure you are aware of these before considering them.

As for the wide spread of price I look at it this way to an alien a Porsche GT2 and a Kia Optima wouldn't look that much different they both have 4 tires and a internal combustion engine. The biggest difference is precision and accuracy and the fact that Festool is built in a 1st world country and has EXCELLENT customer service, support and quality control. I can't think of another manufacturer that has such a dedicated some may say cult like following, very few people only taste the green koolaid, it is like crack, one hit and you are hooked. You used the word best more than once in your original post, short of a OMGA miter saw or a Original Saw or OMGA radial arm saw the Festool really is the "best". In the end each person must find their own point of diminishing returns. One more note on Festool, but it, use it for a year or so then sell it for 80+% of what you paid, buy any miter saw at HD or Lowes use it for 3 months and try to get 50% back, that alone should tell one a lot.


----------



## Huxleywood

NickSaw76 said:


> Lowes gives 10% off if you're a veteran. So if you or someone you know is one bring them along when you make the purchase.


Really??? Please tell me I just misunderstood what you typed.


----------



## SMLWinds

Thanks again for the responses. Huxleywood--you did an excellent job of spelling things out for me so I appreciate it. I understand the Kia and Porsche analogy well and I figured the answer was accuracy and quality but being new and ignorant I didn't know if that was all or not. It sounds like a saw that will just cut through a board is pretty cheap, but in order to get one that will do it the most accurate and highest quality you are going to pay 2-3x's what an decent saw cost. I kept getting recommendations for DeWalt and other Lowes/Home Depot brands that were in the $400 to $600 range...I honestly didn't know you could find ones over $1000!

Anyway, it sounds like Festool is a leader after doing a lot of internet research. Just so you guys can laugh, I hadn't even heard of Festool until researching this and even most reviews include DeWalt, Makita, Ridgid, Bosch for the "high end" saws. Does anyone feel that there is another saw comparable or superior to Festool's? I just want to do all my research. I fully realize it may be overkill for what I need starting out but I would rather spend more now and only buy one saw than to buy another one and then as I grow in the hobby have to decide to get rid of the old and end up with a top end anyway.

Anyone have a place with a good price on Festool? Are they sold in any stores? I've only seen them online and it seems like the KS 120 (which is what you guys said, right?) is about $1300. Thanks again!


----------



## SMLWinds

I have done a bit more reading and have one more question...Let's say you get a DeWalt saw from Lowe's, a Festool for $1300, and then buy and OMGA for thousands more and you use each to cut a board. When you look at them, what will be the difference in the cuts? Obviously I know there must be a difference in quality (and we could debate for years about whether the price is worth it, and I'm open to hearing that as well) but I am wondering what you will see different between the cuts with the different machines.


----------



## TomC

Our Lowes will not give all veterans the 10 per cent discount. You must have an ID. They will not accept you DD214 as proof.
Tom


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

There are lots of Festool Dealers, places like Rockler, WoodCraft, etc. I buy almost all my Festool stuff from Bob Marino on line.

The prices are the same everywhere. Yes it is expensive. I have not had to mess with any of the adjustments in over 2 years that I have owned it.

It gets used hard, from everything from cutting rough stock in the shop, custom trim packages, light framing in remodeling and it has built several South American Hardwood decks too.


----------



## SMLWinds

Thanks, Warner Construction! Sounds like the Festool is really a great tool. When I made my post and said I didn't care about price, I honestly didn't know OMGA saws existed! I would probably draw the line on spending an OMGA price unless necessary but it seems like the Festool does a great job even for the serious woodworker and is certainly a reasonable price for me. I like the fact it works well on decks because that is probably on my "to do" list in a year or two at my river house.

I think I need to find one of these Rockler or Woodcraft stores in my area. I have been doing most of my shopping at Lowe's and Home Depot and it seems like they don't even carry the more serious high end tools.


----------



## BigJim

SMLWinds said:


> I have done a bit more reading and have one more question...Let's say you get a DeWalt saw from Lowe's, a Festool for $1300, and then buy and OMGA for thousands more and you use each to cut a board. When you look at them, what will be the difference in the cuts? Obviously I know there must be a difference in quality (and we could debate for years about whether the price is worth it, and I'm open to hearing that as well) but I am wondering what you will see different between the cuts with the different machines.


Depends on which Dewalt you use, Here is a DW718 refurbished for $449, but read the reviews at the bottom of the page before you decide. 
Amazon.com: DEWALT DW718 12-Inch Double-Bevel Slide Compound Miter Saw: Home Improvement

I personally don't like the 718, I have the DW708 and it is as good a saw as I have ever owned and I have owned many. I feel the Festool is a good tool but feel they are running on name, I would put my 708 up against it any day, believe it or not there is a miter saw that cost way more than the Festool, around $1,500. Makita is a good tool and is made in the USA, some of the Hitachi tools are good, I don't like the one with the digital read out, too much play for me. Bosch is always a good tool also, I just don't like the layout on them.


----------



## J.C.

I'll throw my vote in for the Kapex. I've had mine for a few years now and it is hands down, the nicest, smoothest miter saw I've ever used. However, I can't say it's been trouble free. It developed an oil leak a couple years after I bought it but Festool went out of their way to get it fixed. They paid for the shipping both ways to their service center and they replaced a couple other parts that had been updated since I got the saw.


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

J.C. said:


> I'll throw my vote in for the Kapex. I've had mine for a few years now and it is hands down, the nicest, smoothest miter saw I've ever used. However, I can't say it's been trouble free. It developed an oil leak a couple years after I bought it but Festool went out of their way to get it fixed. They paid for the shipping both ways to their service center and they replaced a couple other parts that had been updated since I got the saw.


I had unknowingly to me, got a small piece of trim stuck inside the blade housing. Next piece I went to cut and there was some loud noises. Ended up cracking some plastic on the back part and knocked the guard off. I called the number right there on the tool and David at Festool talked me through getting the guard back on. They even sent out a whole new side cover so I could fix what I broke.

I never got around to fixing it, but I was going to be going past Festool HQ's in Lebanon, IN one day. I called up the guys down there and let them know what day it would be.

I got there and there was a cart with my name on it for my Kapex.

Went and looked at some top secret tools, went out to lunch with a couple of the guys and then just hung out for a while.

They wheeled my saw back out and it looked like brand new. They always go above and beyond in the customer service department.


----------



## J.C.

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I had unknowingly to me, got a small piece of trim stuck inside the blade housing. Next piece I went to cut and there was some loud noises. Ended up cracking some plastic on the back part and knocked the guard off. I called the number right there on the tool and David at Festool talked me through getting the guard back on. They even sent out a whole new side cover so I could fix what I broke.
> 
> I never got around to fixing it, but I was going to be going past Festool HQ's in Lebanon, IN one day. I called up the guys down there and let them know what day it would be.
> 
> I got there and there was a cart with my name on it for my Kapex.
> 
> Went and looked at some top secret tools, went out to lunch with a couple of the guys and then just hung out for a while.
> 
> They wheeled my saw back out and it looked like brand new. They always go above and beyond in the customer service department.


How about how when you call, someone answers the phone. I'm sure if you gave DeWalt a call, you'd be on the phone for 10 minutes before you'd get to talk to someone for them to tell you they can't help you. :laughing:


----------



## BigJim

J.C. said:


> How about how when you call, someone answers the phone. I'm sure if you gave DeWalt a call, you'd be on the phone for 10 minutes before you'd get to talk to someone for them to tell you they can't help you. :laughing:


As I wipe the crow from my face:smile:, that is really impressive, that would be worth the extra the saw cost for me, knowing they would stand behind their product like that. You are right about Dewalt, the DW708 is a great saw but try to take a Dewalt tool back to HD and see if they take it back.


----------



## mveach

You have received a number of good responses. I have no experience with the festool brand because money, to a point is a concern for me. I know owners swear they are the best. For that price, they better be. One funny thing about the Dewalt saws, you see a lot of people that have older saws that don't like the new models. Some people would take this to mean that the new models are not as good. I don't think this is the case. I think is because their saws are very good and become like an old friend and any change to them is just not the same as the old trusted friend. But I digress. What ever brand you decide on, try to find someone that has one that will let you play with it awhile. If this is not possibly, at least play with them in the store. See how the controls and adjustments work for you. It doesn't matter how good or how many bells and whistles a tool or car or anything else has if it just doesn't fit you.


----------



## SMLWinds

More great responses--thanks! Like I said, my eyes have been opened to a whole new world of tools because to this point I was playing with and researching the saws at Home Depot and Lowes (a lot of which are low end). I admit I am a bit confused trying to sort through all the saws...not only are there many companies but there are also several models from the companies and I haven't become well versed in the "DW708" type lingo yet! I wish there was a list of all saws and their prices, but I know there is probably not.

I have heard many people have fallen out of love with DeWalt's power tools but it seems like their saws are a bit of an exception. A lot of people like their saws, even if they don't like their drills. Festool certainly seems to be a great product...the only thing I have to sort out is the cost effectiveness of spending that much more money.

I fully understand and appreciate the customer service aspect with Festool (I recently bought Ridgid hand tools just because of the warranty and service). However, to play devil's advocate, is the Festool easier to use or does it do a better job than saws like the DeWalt 708? As I asked previously, if I cut a board with each saw can someone look at them and tell the difference? How? The service is a nice perk but let's be honest, you could buy THREE $500 DeWalt saws for the price of the Festool! So, you could throw the DeWalt away and buy another one if it breaks and still come out ahead. If there is a quality difference, that is a different story.

To be honest, I usually end up spending extra money for top quality items in life so I lean towards the Festool. But, I want to be sure I am not just buying it because it is more expensive.

Thanks for everyone's efforts. I know it is annoying to answer "what is best" or "what should I buy" questions but I am learning a tremendous amount researching what you guys suggest so you efforts are worthwhile!


----------



## woodnthings

*I have the 708 Dewalt and 4405 Bosch*

Both are older, but just fine. The DeWalt is a beast, heavy and 12" slider. The Bosch is lighter and 10" both are accurate for my needs.

Best is a trick word when it comes to tools and there is no one man's definition it seems. Budget, accuracy, weight, service are all factors. There's even someone here who likes the 12" harbor Freight with a new better blade. Go figure. I did buy a 10" HF slider and it felt gritty on the slider, so I returned it the same day. The 12" are better and smoother. I have a 10" Craftsman laser lite chop saw which is fine for totin' around to the site. 
You may even find that a RAS will meet your needs. 
You may also want to make a nice big sled for the table saw. The length of the piece will determine which saw I use.
Long pieces are awkward on the TS, but not for a miter or RAS with outboard supports. 
Service life shouldn't be a huge factor for a home shop. Bearings and belts last a long time with occasional use.
Direct drive such as the Makita,which I think is a bevel gear direct drive, should last forever. JMO  bill


----------



## SMLWinds

You hit the nail on the head with "best" being relative. And, different tools are "best" for different jobs and in different ways (portability, cost value, service, etc.)

What I am looking to sort out first and foremost is what saw(s) make the best cuts. I will factor in the service (but if it is too expensive you could buy another one), portability (will be stationary almost all of it's life), cost value (I don't want to waste money just because but do want a great saw), etc.

I honestly felt like the saw spins the blade and the blade is the most important thing in how good a cut is but it seems otherwise based on my research. But, I'm still confused as to exactly how a cut is "better" with one saw...I recognize service, how smooth the saw is, durability, weight, size, etc. are all factors but what I don't know is will the Festool make a nicer cut than a DeWalt (or Milwaukee, Ridgid, Bosch, etc.) 

Thanks again....I am learning a tremendous amount and appreciate everyone's input!


----------



## dbhost

It all depends on your budget. I must admit to a certain amount of drool factor for the Festool, but I just can't see spending that much on a miter saw... The Bosch sounds interesting, but I have been seeing several reports of some accuracy issues with the articulated arm design. IF I had the money to outfit my shop anyway I wanted, I would put the Hitachi C12RSH 15 Amp 12-Inch Sliding Compound Miter Saw with Laser at the very top of my list for miter saws. I have seen these at Lowes, and they don't take up rearward room for the slides, so they compare to the Festool that way, they get good reviews for accuracy, and well... I have had nothing but excellent experiences with Hitachi power tools... And at a little over 1/3 the price of the Festool, I could put the money other places and be just as happy...

Now since I don't have all the money in the world, I opted instead for a Chicago Electric 12" slider from Harbor Freight purchased on sale, with a coupon, fitted with a Diablo 12" 80-T blade, and about an hour of fiddling with adjustments to dial it in where I wanted it. Yes it's big, yes it's loud. But it works great, is smack on accurate, and left me money for beer and wood...


----------



## Huxleywood

First, I mentioned the OMGA mainly to point out that the Festool is not remotely the most expensive miter saw. OMGA miter and radial arm saws don't tend to be in hobby or light commercial shops, they are built like heavy and command a significant price.

One of the biggest things about a miter saw is its precision (used in the scientific sense). The Kapex is 45 degrees every time you set it in the 45 degree stop. It is engineered well and will surprise you over time with the "little things". One thing is the dual laser line, easy to adjust and when adjusted hits both sides of the saw kerf amazingly well, over and over, the laser lines also are less fuzzy than most saw lasers. Although, you did say you have plenty of room I find woodworkers tend to expand like water and take up every bit of space they have over time. The Kapex is very compact for its capacity. This compactness is part of what helps it be precise out at the end of the stroke. It is true no miter saw particluarly sliders have great dust collection, but the Kapex is better than the rest but it is not nearly as "dustless" as most other Festool tools. Also you might spend some time understanding the "system" approach Festool takes, where all the tools are designed to mate and accessories work for multiple tools and a tool bought today works with older accessories etc. 

For full disclosure I don't own the Kapex, I use a radial arom saw for most of the functions of a CSMS but do have the Milwaukee I mentioned earlier for complex bevel cuts which I find quicker to set up on a CSMS.

One could also argue buying a Kapex for ones first CSMS doesn't make sense, in my world it makes perfect sense because you are either going to become a woodworker or not. If you do you have one of the best saws which will give you better results due to its precision, accuracy and ease of use, it also has a huge following that can help you if you need it, Festool has entire forums dedicated to just Festool tools. If you decide WWing isn't for you, you can sell the Kapex in a heartbeat for a much bigger percentage of your cost than any of the other machines and likely after a year and selling each the Festool will almost certainly cost you less to own. 

Bottom line most Festools look stupid expensive until you use them, then you begin to see the amount of value they have. The reality is most of the people that only own one Festool just haven't had time to get back to the store yet or they are still putting pennies in the piggy bank.

PS there are lots of good videos on youtube showing the Kapex and most of the dealers will have one out to play with, the better ones can walk you through the advantages.


----------



## BigJim

I will say with the Festool you can't go wrong, I drool over it also but this late in life it would be a waste to spend that much on a saw I won't ever use much again.

There is definitely a difference between the DW708 and the DW718 Dewalt saw. The 708 is made in the USA and the 718 in made in Mexico. The 718 is a lighter saw and has more slop in it when fully extended and that I don't like. If a saw has even a little slop I don't want it.

For a saw blade if you get a CMT, Forest WWII, an Freud also makes a good saw blade but of them all I like the Forest WWII, it cuts so smooth and quite is is unreal. I don't like Dewalt blades at all, I have had too many wobble and you can't cut accurately with a wobbly blade.


----------



## Huxleywood

jiju1943 said:


> For a saw blade if you get a CMT, Forest WWII, an Freud also makes a good saw blade but of them all I like the Forest WWII, it cuts so smooth and quite is is unreal.


If you like the WWII on a CSMS you will LOVE the Chopmaster. They are Forrest's blade designed for the miter saw, if you do lots of small work or trim try the Chopmaster signature line.


----------



## SMLWinds

So let me see if I understand this...one of the things that separates the Festool from other cheaper saws is precision and/or a lack of "slop." Does that mean that with a cheaper saw I might set it to cut at 45 degrees but it may cut one board at 44 degrees and the next one at 47 degrees while the Festool will cut all of them at 45 degrees? Also, I guess the cheaper the saw the more chance (in general) that the blade will wobble and not make as precise of a cut? Sounds like aside from price, no one has anything bad to say about the Festool....the only negative seems to be the price (which is a consideration since I can buy THREE of several other recommended saws for the price of the Festool). I know there have been some names thrown out above, but what do you guys think it is the closest thing to the Festool? Milwaukee? Bosch? I just want to be able to narrow down my choice to a few options and be able to do a detailed comparision. Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

I really don't think there is another saw that will compare to the Kapex.

I think all the saws in the 500-700 dollar range are on par with each other.

I have had a lot of miter saws over the years, I always had to make sure to go over them about once a week or things would get out of whack.

In over 2 years, I haven't had to touch any of the adjustments on my Kapex.

It has more bells and whistles compared to anything else too.

Variable speed
Dual lasers that turn on with a press of a button
counter balanced head for bevels (release the lock and the head will not fall to one side)
Fine adjustment knob to dial in the correct bevel.
It comes with the best hold down clamp I have ever seen with a miter saw.
Soft start, great blade break.
I could go on.


----------



## BigJim

The miter saw I would put next in line to the festool would be Makita, then Bosch, then the DW708 Dewalt. Some of the saws will hold the angles over and over and be dead on, then the ones with slop will very a fraction of a degree. That don't sound like a lot but try making a hex and see how the joints don't fit tight. The cheaper saws, ones that are on down the line from the ones mentioned here will hold up fairly well for a hobbyist or weekend warriors but for everyday use as a professional uses they won't last long. The list I have here are not all the good saws, this is just MHO and experience with the saws.

The reason I didn't buy the Makita is I don't like the sound they make, I don't like the way a Bosch is set up and the Hitachi aren't as good as they use to be so I went with the DW708, it is dead accurate and as good a saw out there. That is about it for my opinion.


----------



## J.C.

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I really don't think there is another saw that will compare to the Kapex.
> 
> I think all the saws in the 500-700 dollar range are on par with each other.
> 
> I have had a lot of miter saws over the years, I always had to make sure to go over them about once a week or things would get out of whack.
> 
> In over 2 years, I haven't had to touch any of the adjustments on my Kapex.
> 
> It has more bells and whistles compared to anything else too.
> 
> Variable speed
> Dual lasers that turn on with a press of a button
> counter balanced head for bevels (release the lock and the head will not fall to one side)
> Fine adjustment knob to dial in the correct bevel.
> It comes with the best hold down clamp I have ever seen with a miter saw.
> Soft start, great blade break.
> I could go on.


Have you ever used the variable speed and if so, on what? I can't say I've ever used it and forget it's there most of the time.


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

J.C. said:


> Have you ever used the variable speed and if so, on what? I can't say I've ever used it and forget it's there most of the time.


Just the other day I did.

I was cross cutting a 3" thick, laminated reclaimed oak table top that someone brought over to the shop for me to finish plane and cross cut.

I had to flip it since it was about 24" wide. 

I dialed it down to 3 and made a wonderful cut in that old timber.

Only took a second to tune up the end grain on my edge sander.

I have cut aluminum extrusions with it too on speed 2-3.


----------



## Brianpeters

Someone correct me if I'm wrong..but doesn't the Kapex have a feature that allows the head to be locked in position to make dados?


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

Brianpeters said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong..but doesn't the Kapex have a feature that allows the head to be locked in position to make dados?


Yes it has a trenching feature, I forgot about that.

It actually works well and has came in handy when I was out on an install and did not have another means to do it.


----------



## Ozrob

The thing about the Kapex is, you tend to take the features for granted after a while. Superior dust collection, setting a stop for trenching, how quiet it is compared to other units, consistent, accurate, clean cutting, excellent technical support. The list goes on. Adjustable speed so you can mitre trays for boxes with ease.Which is why people talk about quality remaining long after price is forgotten. The Kapex is my go to Mitre saw and I love my Makita, so that tells you a lot!

Regards,

Rob


----------



## NickSaw76

SMLWinds said:


> So let me see if I understand this...one of the things that separates the Festool from other cheaper saws is precision and/or a lack of "slop." Does that mean that with a cheaper saw I might set it to cut at 45 degrees but it may cut one board at 44 degrees and the next one at 47 degrees while the Festool will cut all of them at 45 degrees? Also, I guess the cheaper the saw the more chance (in general) that the blade will wobble and not make as precise of a cut? Sounds like aside from price, no one has anything bad to say about the Festool....the only negative seems to be the price (which is a consideration since I can buy THREE of several other recommended saws for the price of the Festool). I know there have been some names thrown out above, but what do you guys think it is the closest thing to the Festool? Milwaukee? Bosch? I just want to be able to narrow down my choice to a few options and be able to do a detailed comparision. Thanks again for all the help!


I think you're getting a little off track from all recommendations. (which can easily happen from all info being thrown at you.) To think that anything below a Festool product will wobble and not be accurate is simply not true. I know professional home builders who use 12" sliding miter saws like Dewalt all day long. They even make custom kitchen cabinetry and other various custom furniture using a brand like Dewalt. They are the type of guys who would be the first to get rid of a bad tool right away that wobbled or didn't hold it's settings. I look at it like this. A 12" sliding miter saw in a Ryobi or Harber Freight in my mind would be a Geo Metro. A Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Ridgid would be a Cadillac and a Festool would be a Lamborghini. Prob not the best explanation but that's just how I look at it.


----------



## Huxleywood

NickSaw76 said:


> To think that anything below a Festool product will wobble and not be accurate is simply not true. I know professional home builders who use 12" sliding miter saws like Dewalt all day long. They even make custom kitchen cabinetry and other various custom furniture using a brand like Dewalt. They are the type of guys who would be the first to get rid of a bad tool right away that wobbled or didn't hold it's settings. .


You are correct. One must look for their personal point of diminishing returns for every tool and every purchase. My Milwaukee can be just as accurate as a Kapex but it nor any other miter saw I have used is as precise, even with the Milwaukee's digital readout and micro-adjust. Further, it is the easiest to obtain that accuracy of any of the miter saws I have used. Let us not forget this quote from the OP "I am willing and able to spend whatever necessary to have the best quality". With that taken to heart I think it is hard NOT to recommend the Festool.

BTW I would compare the Kapex more to a Lexus, you wouldn't have to worry about how much time your Kapex was in the shop, like the Italian tractor builder you compared it to... :icon_smile:


----------



## BigJim

Brianpeters said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong..but doesn't the Kapex have a feature that allows the head to be locked in position to make dados?


So does a DW708. 
There was only one saw I had to retune years back, didn't keep it long, the other saws I had never had to be readjusted.


----------



## Ozrob

So, what's the final decision??


----------



## SMLWinds

Thanks so much to everyone who has weighed in thus far. You guys have really taught me a lot and I am so very appreciative! It sounds like most everyone agrees that at worst, the Kapex is just as good as most any other saw. The question is whether or not it is worth an extra $600, which we could debate all day and everyone has a different opinion. I'm pretty sure that Kapex is at least slightly better in many ways than the $500-$700 saws...but the question is would you rather have a Kapex than TWO of the other saws (which would cost the same thing). My gut feeling is that I will probably get a Kapex and know that I got top notch quality since we are talking about a difference of hundreds of dollars. For that price, I would rather know that I got the best and have more options and less to worry about (assuming my research and personal tests do support that a Kapex is the "best") If the difference were more money (such as the OMGA saws, which are thousands more) I would be less likely to say it is worth it. On the flip side, it does sound like a number of saws with do quite a nice job (even for less money) and many people believe the differences are minimal at best so I'll be keeping all that in mind as well as I go try them out and continue researching. With that said, I research everything thoroughly before making a purchase and will probably research this for another month or so before making a purchase so if anyone has a different opinion (or the same one) please do let me know!


----------



## woodnthings

*before you sail off into the sunset..*

Check this saw out and the reviews on Amazon. It's in the middle price range...$700.00 :boat: so it may be what you want:
Amazon.com: Bosch GCM12SD 120-Volt 12-Inch DB Glide Miter Saw: Home Improvement


----------



## Huxleywood

woodnthings said:


> Check this saw out and the reviews on Amazon. It's in the middle price range...$700.00 :boat: so it may be what you want:
> Amazon.com: Bosch GCM12SD 120-Volt 12-Inch DB Glide Miter Saw: Home Improvement


 
Although I like the Glider just make sure you are aware of the cut capacity limitations before you choose it, for some it would be a non-issue, for others it would be a deal breaker.


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

Now why would I want to inferior saws for the price of one?


----------



## David Peebles

*miter saws*

I have a 10" Hitachi slider, double bevel. I defy anyone to tell the difference between cuts made with my saw and any other. Smooth as a baby's behind. But I suggest you check out Fine Woodworking's annual tool guides and reviews. They do not always rate Festool as the "best" tool you can buy (let alone "best value"). They have reviewed miter saws, but I'm not sure which issue that was. Maybe check online?


----------



## drbob1

The Makita LS1016L is the rated the top 10" sliding miter saw. For a review and substantial discount visit Woodworking Tips and Tools.

http://woodworkingtipsandtools.com/...-selected-the-best-10-inch-sliding-miter-saw/


----------



## Huxleywood

drbob said:


> The Makita LS1016L is the rated the top 10" sliding miter saw. For a review and substantial discount visit Woodworking Tips and Tools.
> 
> http://woodworkingtipsandtools.com/...-selected-the-best-10-inch-sliding-miter-saw/


 
Yep, it was, in an article written by you on a shopping portal site... :thumbdown:


----------



## Huxleywood

David Peebles said:


> I have a 10" Hitachi slider, double bevel. I defy anyone to tell the difference between cuts made with my saw and any other. Smooth as a baby's behind. But I suggest you check out Fine Woodworking's annual tool guides and reviews. They do not always rate Festool as the "best" tool you can buy (let alone "best value"). They have reviewed miter saws, but I'm not sure which issue that was. Maybe check online?


 
FWW hasn't tested 10" miter saws in about five years, most of the models have changed and the festool was not reviewed. 

FHB their sister magazine did do a recent test on 12" saws (thus no Kapex) and then came back shortly test and proclaimed the Milwaukee I mentioned the best 12" saw. They have a video review of it and if you watch the whole thing the next video loads and it is a review of the Kapex (one note he says you can only use Festool blades as a result of the 30mm arbor, it wasn't true then and it is not true now).

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/too...-12-in-sliding-compound-miter-saw-review.aspx

I agree cut quality shouldn't vary much if any between the 500+ 12" (or Kapex) BUT with a miter saw cut quality is maybe 20% of the equation (partially since there is so little variance) AND cut quality is about 90% blade and 10% saw. As long as vibration, arbor runout and flex are the same the cut will be the same. None of the miter saws that are being discussed should have any arbor or vibration issues and flex shouldn't be a big issue, but chances are the Kapex will win in a flex test.

Festool tools don't win every comparison as top tool, but I would venture they win more than any other manufacturer of hand power tools since they got enough market here to be consistently tested. As an example they were included in two comparisons in the FWW 2011 Tool Guide and won both.

The bottom line is if you want the most feature rich, most precise, best supported large capacity CSMS under $1,500 then IMO the Kapex is it by a margin. When you cut that number in half there are tons of excellent players, my choice being the Milwaukee or the Bosch Glider, they don't match the Kapex in many respects but one shouldn't expect them to given the difference in price and origin.


----------



## SMLWinds

More wonderful responses...I continue to learn more with every answer so a big thank you to everyone who has taken the time to chime in thus far. At this point I have 2 questions:
1) Why isn't the Festool tested in the comparisons?
2) Why does the Festool only come in 10"? Do you guys think some of the superiority the Festool seems to have (according to many) is nullified by the fact that other saws are 12"? Does the extra reach count for much or do you find it isn't necessary?


----------



## Ozrob

SMLWinds said:


> 2) Why does the Festool only come in 10"? Do you guys think some of the superiority the Festool seems to have (according to many) is nullified by the fact that other saws are 12"? Does the extra reach count for much or do you find it isn't necessary?


Because of the design, whereby the saw head moves out in front of the base, not from behind the saw forward, the 10" blade has a 12" reach. I've used it often.

Regards,

Rob


----------



## Huxleywood

Like Ozrob stated due to the design it has capacities that are about same as 12" saws. All of these saws have similar but slightly different capacities in the different cuts they can make, some are a little more and some are a little less using certain cuts. That is the reason I keep mentioning the unusual capacity limitations in certain cuts with the Bosch Glider. In general if you build furniture the most important capacity will be crosscut, that will be completly different if you are a trim carpenter and different again if you are a framer. 

Suffice it to say the capacities of the Kapex are not very different from most of the 12" saws and beats some of them in some areas, and there are no sign ificant shortcomings to its capacity compared to 12" saws in general.


----------



## shkalert

It's definitely daunting buying your first mitre! There are so many to choose from. Between the helpful posts on here and http://toolshedreview.com, I was able to find the right saw for me. Thanks again everyone here at woodworkingtalk


----------



## Paul W Gillespie

So what ever happened to SMLWinds and his tool search? What did he buy? I hate when we are left hanging.


----------



## SMLWinds

Paul-Despite the recent absence, I'm still alive and here! Sorry for leaving you hanging!

To answer your question, I'm renovating my house at the moment and thus my 5 car garage (which is to become my wood shop) is full of lumber, appliances, and everything I own. In a couple months, the wood shop will get set up!

I am still reserving the right to change my mind, but I'm 99% sure the answer will be Festool. I will certainly be back to follow up with you guys on this and request help on other topics. It's just that I went on hiatus while I moved, opening my new surgery practice, and am doing housing renovations. I started my research well ahead of purchase time--I don't like to buy something unless I know everything about it and have done extensive research. I looked at the Festool at Woodcraft and really liked it so I strongly lean towards that.


----------



## Paul W Gillespie

Good luck with all your endeavors and come on back when you get the shop going.


----------



## woodworkerhobbyist

I found it very hard to find my first miter saw! There are so many that you can choose between. In the end I chose a Dewalt Miter after readind some reviews on http://bestmitersawguide.com. The first one I bought lasted five years without found thats with me using it day in day out.


----------



## Redsoxfan

*makita*

get the makita 12" compound slide.

great stability.
built like a tank

legendary makita quality

we've been using makita in the shop and out on the jobsite for decades, and have never been let down

i recently purchased the makita for my woodshop. it will never go out to the jobsite.


----------



## bauerbach

well blades wont cut tools  There are plenty of good saws, just a matter of budget. Im pleased with my dewalt, the XPS lighting system is well regarded, I personally love it. There are some complaints about the slide, havent had an issue myself. Its a $500 saw though, and thats steep for a miter saw. THey also claim 75% dust extraction without a vacuum. *shrug*

be wary of review links, most are bogus, that "best miter saw guide" link above is pure spam. most are. toolguyd.com seems pretty decent at describing the tool in detail, and there is no affiliation with me.


----------



## hazimkazim

I support you work........good luck


----------



## SMLWinds

Wow....I am just impressed that I started a thread that 28K people have felt worthy of looking at!

Anyway, just so everyone knows, I bought the Festool Kapex. I have not regretted it for a single minute and it has been great. I do think there are some great features that make it a top tier saw. We can argue whether it is worth the extra cost and there may be a valid discussion, but I can say I do think there are advantages to the Festool over the other saw that are in the $500 range.

I am very happy with mine and would have regretted buying any other saw but whether or not it is right for you depends upon how much the extra money will stress you. I can't tell you if it is truly worth double the price of the consumer grade saws, but I can't tell you that I think you are getting something for your additional money.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread when I was looking!


----------



## chuckha62

I've used a bunch of miter saws over the years and when I had to replace my old one, I still went back to the Hitachi. It's made in China today so that was a bit of a downside, but for the money, it's still the best compound slider out there.


----------



## Firad1945

Makita LS 1221 Compound miter saw is 12 inches in size and comes with complete kit.. It includes vise , blade , 2 extension wings , socket wrench ,dust bag.. It is strong , square and powerful miter saw brand known to me so far. I have been using this from so long..


----------



## Al B Thayer

I've got the DeWalt 12" slider. I'm not a carpenter and don't use my saw a lot. But it seems to make accurate cuts. The down side for saws like these is they need to be a good distance form the wall. I think most of the saws do a good job and preform about the same.

Al


----------



## BigJim

I have the DW708 miter saw and it is as good if not the best saw I have ever owned other than my old Stanley and Miller Falls hand miter saw. I have worn many saws out over the years and the DW708 is as good as they come. The older Mikita saws were the top of the line as far as good, dependable, accurate and long lasting is concerned (My opinion), I just could not stand the way they sounded. I know that sounds weird and it may be but that is the way it was for me. 

Hitachi use to be the absolute best, but so many things have changed since I retired, I am not up on the saws now. I still check the miter saws to see how much slop or play they have in sideways movement, if they move more than 1 degree either way, they wouldn't be in my shop. I am a tool nut, or have been over the years, if it helped make the job better or faster or easier, I bought it.


----------



## hokeyplyr48

Fine wood working did a review and the Bosch cm12 was their overall best pick.


----------



## bauerbach

havent used it... but looking at it... single bevel, looks small and cheap. I dont know what their qualifications where, or how old the review might have been...

Ill stick with my dws780


----------



## 44260

I agree 100% to purchase a 12" dual compound slider, you will not go wrong!!!!!!! I own a Craftsman 12" dual compound slider and I love it for what I use it for but it is NOT a precision machine. Something to consider in purchase is if you are gonna set up a dust collection system using some sort of box system behind the saw stay away from sliders that have the 2 round bars that extend out past the back of the saw. These posts really put a dampening on effective dust collection. If I ever buy another miter saw I am gonna look at something along the lines of the Bosch just for dust collection issues.


----------



## Chamfer

Umm, FWIW the original poster already bought a Festool a month ago.


----------



## SMLWinds

Yes, Chamfer, I already have a Festool. But, if the thread is helping anyone else, please keep it going. I think there is a wealth of information here and very well may be helpful to people who search the threads in the future.

I am very happy with the Festool--couldn't be any better. Is it worth the price? That would depend on who you are and what you are using it for. But, I can promise you it is top notch with regards to quality!

BTW Chamfer, you are only about 30 minutes down Rt. 360 from me! Always interesting to hear from people that live right up the road!


----------



## Rebelwork

I prefer and older DW708 or DW706 and would buy used if needed. But like any other saw you have to keep non-warped, sharp blades on it....


----------



## jacko9

*mobile stand for Festool Kapex*

Now that the original poster purchased a Festool Kapex Miter saw, I'll ask the question of the Kapex community;

What mobile stand do you use for your Kapex (if you keep it on wheels).

Jack


----------



## SMLWinds

I will give a huge vote on confidence for the Fastcap Best Fence Pro stand and fence. It is absolutely spectacular! I am certain it is pricey compared to others, but relative to the Kapex it is a small price to pay for top quality! There may be other good ones, but I love my Best Fence Pro!


----------



## SMLWinds

If you search for it, I had a thread about the stands as well which led me to the Best Fence Pro.


----------

