# 2hp? 3hp? Overwhelmed.



## Matt tennessen (Jan 23, 2011)

Dust collection is not something I have much experience with save for half measures involving shop vacs and an underwhelming portable 1hp unit. I've poured over Pentz's and Thien's sites as well as had lengthy conversations with clear vue and oneida. For the small off-site shop we're planning on a cyclone but for the "shop" in my garage I just can't afford to put a few grand into it. 

So... I can seem to find cheaper 2 and 3hp units used in my area and have been thinking about getting one, adding a Wynn filter and a Thien separator. I know it's not ideal, but neither is my home shop. I want to keep it tidy and not wear a respirator at all times. I've seen a lot of "rigged" systems like this but my concern is that with the separator, my cfm loss will be too great for a 2hp unit. This is all from forums/articles that use numbers and variables that I can't trust/interpret/extrapolate for my own setup. So I could get a 3hp unit and hope that solves my problem. But those all utilize twice the bags/filters and that's a lot of room once i add the separator. Could I use that but eliminate the second bag/filter? 

Usually I'm fairly adept at navigating the subtleties between black and white, but in this area the various shades of gray all look the same. Help!


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

Matt, the air a DC will move is very much tied to it's ducting and discharge, almost as much as the impeller size and motor HP. To move the most the blower needs a fairly free flow coming in, as well as going out. So, you can eliminate o1/2 the bags...and that will reduce the air flow. Whether it's significant is hard to say, but I suspect it would be. You will gain breathing room by not having a bag fill with dust/chips (at least not as quickly) with a pre separator which makes the whole thing almost a need-to-test kind of question.I think my recommendation would be to go with a 2HP unit that has a 12" impeller, and put a Thein on it. If you choose to go with your 3 HP plan, you could have an oversized bag made (AFF) for the upper unit to recoup some airflow, but that's likely to cost more than it's worth. I wish you the best with your decision.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I have a Jet 1 1/2HP dust collector with a cannister on the top and plastic bag on the bottom.

My shop is a 2 car garage, about 22 ft long x 30 ft wide. The dust collector is in one corner.

The duct is essentially an "L" going down the middle of the shop and then along the back wall to the dust collector.

I only run one machine at a time.

My duct is less than ideal, inexpensive 4in sewer pipe.

I hated cleaning out the cannister so a short time ago I started to build a cone separator inspired by the new Jet Vortex.

I ended up adding a Thien baffle inside the Jet. So easy and it seems to be working very well. I do not have airflow measurements, but I can tell from the suction at the machines that I have better flow now than I did before I installed the Thien baffle.

Since the Thien baffle is after the blower, I am not losing any pressure drop in the duct.

Emptying the plastic bag is not bad compared to cleaning the cannister.

So for my present needs, this is working well.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/making-dust-collector-cone-separator-44695/

If I want a performance/airflow/suction improvement, I would install larger duct in my shop before upgrading to a larger dust collector.


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## Matt tennessen (Jan 23, 2011)

Fred Hargis said:


> Matt, the air a DC will move is very much tied to it's ducting and discharge, almost as much as the impeller size and motor HP. To move the most the blower needs a fairly free flow coming in, as well as going out. So, you can eliminate o1/2 the bags...and that will reduce the air flow. Whether it's significant is hard to say, but I suspect it would be. You will gain breathing room by not having a bag fill with dust/chips (at least not as quickly) with a pre separator which makes the whole thing almost a need-to-test kind of question.I think my recommendation would be to go with a 2HP unit that has a 12" impeller, and put a Thein on it. If you choose to go with your 3 HP plan, you could have an oversized bag made (AFF) for the upper unit to recoup some airflow, but that's likely to cost more than it's worth. I wish you the best with your decision.


Thanks fred, so the additional canister/bag on a 3hp is a functional necessity due to the increased airflow? I suppose the cynic in me assumed it was just a gimmick. Makes sense though. The 2hp ones seem to show up more so that makes my decision easier.


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## Matt tennessen (Jan 23, 2011)

Dave Paine said:


> I have a Jet 1 1/2HP dust collector with a cannister on the top and plastic bag on the bottom.
> 
> My shop is a 2 car garage, about 22 ft long x 30 ft wide. The dust collector is in one corner.
> 
> ...


Dave, I had actually bookmarked your thread. So, forgive my ignorance, is the pro/con to the baffle right in front if the impeller that you have less of a pressure loss than a pre-separator while offering the benefits of a separator? The con being you just have to empty the bag more often? For the sake of space, I could live with that.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Matt tennessen said:


> Dave, I had actually bookmarked your thread. So, forgive my ignorance, is the pro/con to the baffle right in front if the impeller that you have less of a pressure loss than a pre-separator while offering the benefits of a separator? The con being you just have to empty the bag more often? For the sake of space, I could live with that.


Yes, that is how I consider the pro and con.

Having the Thien baffle post the blower means it does not cause pressure drop in the duct which is under negative pressure. Any resistance in the negative pressure side will normally result in more pressure drop than the same resistance in the positive side. It may consume a bit of positive pressure drop, but the intent of Phil Thien's design is to minimize the air below the baffle.

Before I installed the Thien baffle, all the contents in the plastic bag swirled around. This has to consume some energy.

With the Thien baffle, the plastic bag is pressurized, but there is not swirling of the contents, so I feel less energy is going into moving around a lot of trapped dust.

I am hoping the biggest pro is that the cannister rarely needs cleaning, and when it does get cleaned, it will have far less dust. I have not yet pulled the cannister to see what dust, if any has collected.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

A Thein baffle pre separator is better then a baffle after because you catch the debris before it hits the impeller. As said you don't want to block or slow the airflow at tiger end. 2 or 3hp would work much more efficiently with 6" duct reducing down to 4" at the machines. You will get quite a bit more suction with a 3 HP but is it worth the space. The 2 HP HF DC is ok but they have a smaller impeller then most 1.5 HP models. So if those are the ones or sale I would look for another brand or buy it new. The canister filters give allot more filter area then bags. Look in the dust collection section for more info. My shop album has pictures of my setup also.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Matt tennessen said:


> Dave, I had actually bookmarked your thread. So, forgive my ignorance, is the pro/con to the baffle right in front if the impeller that you have less of a pressure loss than a pre-separator while offering the benefits of a separator? The con being you just have to empty the bag more often? For the sake of space, I could live with that.


in discussing the integrated baffle (within the DC) vs the pre-separator with phil thien, he's offered this insight. there are users who use both applications of the baffle. users in that camp employ the pre separator when using chip generating tools, like planers and jointers, but leave the pre separator out of the collection stream when using dust generating tools, like sanders, TSs and band saws. i've also noticed that adding a baffle to drum ring of my 50-850 actually made the canister filter cleaner than it was before the installation of the baffle within the drum mring.


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## Matt tennessen (Jan 23, 2011)

toolguy1000 said:


> in discussing the integrated baffle (within the DC) vs the pre-separator with phil thien, he's offered this insight. there are users who use both applications of the baffle. users in that camp employ the pre separator when using chip generating tools, like planers and jointers, but leave the pre separator out of the collection stream when using dust generating tools, like sanders, TSs and band saws. i've also noticed that adding a baffle to drum ring of my 50-850 actually made the canister filter cleaner than it was before the installation of the baffle within the drum mring.


dust collection discussions make me feel like a total moron. Everything is theoretical and my inexperience is obvious. Nevertheless: are you saying that it could be practical to employ the baffle in the collector as you and dave have done (vortex style) AND occasionally use the more commonly used pre-separator (when using a planer or jointer)?


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## Toller (Dec 30, 2007)

The really important thing is to get a canister that will catch the fine dust. Without that you are really just making the problem worse.
While there are 2hp units on CL for $150, they don't have canisters and the canisters are expensive.

2hp should be adequate. 3hp with only one bag wouldn't be much better than a 2hp. 

On my 2hp I was able to put the separator above the motor/blower. Worked really nice and saved a lot of room, but most won't allow that setup.

You can get a Grizzly 2hp cyclone for $1,100. That is nearly triple the price of a used 2hp DC with canister, but you won't have to buy it later. Of course you can probably sell a used DC for what you paid for it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*cyclones?*

For the life of me I don't get them. For $500.00 or so, you can get a 1 1/2 Jet, a 2 HP HF or similar Grizzly, install a Thein separator/baffle in the dust plenum or an in line Vortex separator store bought or shop built and get virtually all the dust from the equipment connected to the system. http://www.grizzly.com/products/2HP-Canister-Dust-Collector/G0548Z Air flow at 1700 cfm.

The nearest cyclone starts around $800.00 and up for a 1 1/2 HP unit. http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cyclone-D-C-1-1-2-HP-2-Stage/G0703 air flow at 775 cfm.
The tiny drum underneath the cyclone will fill with planing chips in one session of serious thicknessing in my shop. I just don't get their appeal. Maybe someone can explain it?

If the efficiency of the cyclone is better at keeping the dust out of the filter it then must go into the small drum which by necessity will fill up faster...no? :blink:


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## Toller (Dec 30, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> The tiny drum underneath the cyclone will fill with planing chips in one session of serious thicknessing in my shop. I just don't get their appeal. Maybe someone can explain it?


For planing it probably doesn't make much difference. Try a drum sander and you will understand the difference in a few minutes.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Bigger is usually better. If you can afford the bigger unit go for it, you will be happier. Just remember power requirements need to be met with the larger units. 3HP will need 20 amp circuits if you are using 220 single phase.


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## Matt tennessen (Jan 23, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Bigger is usually better. If you can afford the bigger unit go for it, you will be happier. Just remember power requirements need to be met with the larger units. 3HP will need 20 amp circuits if you are using 220 single phase.


Since I've got to upgrade my single 15amp circuit out to the garage if I want plug anything in, I'm putting a sub-panel out there anyway. I'm still on the fence but I may go with the 2hp if only to save a bit of space. The 2-man shop I work in isn't far from my house but I'm taking just half the garage just so I don't have to run to work for everything. Now I either go to the shop on weekends and stay all day or work on the house, it would be nice to have the option of doing both in the same day. And the trade off is cramming in whatever I can, wherever I can. 

Thanks for all the input, everyone!


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Matt tennessen said:


> dust collection discussions make me feel like a total moron. Everything is theoretical and my inexperience is obvious. Nevertheless: are you saying that it could be practical to employ the baffle in the collector as you and dave have done (vortex style) AND occasionally use the more commonly used pre-separator (when using a planer or jointer)?


that's phil's perspective. use what you need when it's needed and don't use it when it's not needed.



Toller said:


> The really important thing is to get a canister that will catch the fine dust. Without that you are really just making the problem worse.
> While there are 2hp units on CL for $150, they don't have canisters and the canisters are expensive.
> 
> 2hp should be adequate. 3hp with only one bag wouldn't be much better than a 2hp.
> ...


while canisters are nice, there are 1 micron bags available for less. even so, a canister from wynne can be had for ~ $150. couple that with a 1.5 hp CL DC for $150 or less and for < $300, you're good to go.

add an internal baffle for < $20,

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/40189

build a preseparator for < ~$50 and the resulting set up should handle whatever a hobbyist wants to throw at it.


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## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

Matt, I know that this comment is late to the game but, I just finished installing the 3hp Oneida V-System to my garage shop. The V-System footprint is the same weather it's 2hp or 3hp and for the difference of $100 I would definitely go for the larger motor. Right now I'm connected to a 8" wide Jointer, a 12" Powermatic Planer and a Powermatic 66 Table Saw. It's nice to have a clean shop!

Jack


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