# Biscuits...Pro's/cons



## Tweegs (Sep 8, 2007)

I bought a plate jointer and biscuits a few years back. At the time they were all the rage. With the very first project I began to realize they were more of a PITA than they were worth.

The first problem I encountered came when I tried to edge join two boards. Even though the material was the same thickness, if I cut say 4 slots in each board, one set would not line up. At first I thought either a setting had slipped or I may have gotten a chip between the plate and material. A second attempt produced the same result even though I had taken great pains to eliminate those possibilities. 

The second problem I found was the biscuit thickness. Humidity levels will cause the biscuits to swell and shrink. Not all of the biscuits in the jar will do so at the same rate. Oftentimes I found that I would have to dump the contents of the jar on the bench and sort through all of them to find the number I needed that had the correct fit. Thinking that the problem was just poor quality biscuits, I tried both Bosch and PC biscuits with the same result.

After that experience I've had no more use for them. The jointer is all nice and clean residing in its case in the cabinet and has been for a couple of years now.

The reason I bring this up, I was watching NYW and Woodworks on the tube the other night. Both Norm and David used biscuits in their projects. Having read several reviews over the years that matched mine above and not many articles written about them recently, I had thought that biscuits had fallen from favor.

There seems to be a resurgence both in the shows and here on the boards. Did I miss something?

If you use biscuits, do you have the same problems I listed?
Why do you use them over dowels?
Anyone with a Pro side?
How about more cons?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Good morning. Sorry to hear that you are having a problem with biscuits. From what you are describing it seems to me that if you are not having a technique problem then you have a problem with the actual joiner. 

If the failure of the slots to line up is side to side, do you mark the locations of the to be cuts on each piece of material BEFORE attempting to cut? This is critical to ensuring that the holes line up. I lay the boards side by side and use a square to make a line simuntaneously on each board. This ensures that the slots line up. If failure to line up is the spacing of the slot from the top of the board then I would say that the failure of the machine or you are not holding the joiner completely flat on the board in which you are cutting the slot. 

When making the cuts do you run the cutter into the board more than once before removing the joiner? This ensures that you have cut a sufficient hole. This also eases the hole somewhat and makes the biscuit easier to insert.

You are correct that biscuits are not necessarily easy to slide into the cuts. However, there is nothing wrong with a snug fit. There is no reason that the biscuits have to be easily pushed into the slots by hand. Sometimes the boards never come together until I use a clamp. This is not problem.

Get out the biscuit joiner and play with it on some scrap material and see if you can determine just what is wrong. Good luck.

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

My complaints are similar to yours. I'll go a step further with the cons. They don't insure alignment. If someone says they do, they just got lucky. I've never done any type of joinery with biscuits that I didn't have clamps, cauls and a bunch of wedges ready to line things up. They do have a slip fit and that alone is enough for misalignment. There has to be some room for glue. 

As for long grain to long grain glue up, like for edge gluing, they are unnecessary. They can swell and leave a "hump" visible on the surface. They don't have much torsional strength, and I consider them useful in only helping parts from pulling apart, nothing structural. I would much rather use a spline and rout the groove. That way I can make the groove any depth or length, and have a selection of wood specie for the spline, its size and how tight I want it to be.


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## WDChew (Aug 31, 2007)

I have used them for over 10 years. I just have a low-end Skill cutter and haven't had alignment problems...IF I match the side of the board (inside to inside, etc.) If I flip the board (don't ask how many times I've done it), they don't align because the slot is never exactly centered. I use them to attach face frames nearly all the time.

I had problems with moisture content, so I just put a silica gel package in the container. I buy the P-C biscuits that come in a plastic jar with a screw on lid. If they are too fat, I squish 'em with lineman's pliers till they go in. The glue makes them swell again.


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

I have a DeWalt biscuit jointer and I've never had a problem. I use it whenever I can.


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## Shamus (Aug 22, 2008)

I use biscuits and spline depending on the requirement. 

Originally I ran into an alignment problem. After checking the joiner, everything tight and adjusted to center, some cuts would still not line up. Turns out the table I was resting the joiner on was not flat. Every place the table dipped, the slot I'd make in the board was low. Once I understood that and built a flat working surface the problem went away. I do have to be looking for the flatness of the piece I'm cutting the slots in. Same results if I'm not paying attention.

Biscuits not fitting in slots haven't been an issue. With some glue they have always pulled together with clamps without a problem. I haven't experienced any raised wood from them but I could see where it could happen. I don't use a biscuit on anything thinner than 5/8" material and all of it is hardwood. Maybe that makes a difference, I don't know.

On longer boards I use a spline.

The only dowel work I do is on a restoration piece and I'm replacing with a new and often larger one.

For me, the set-up for biscuit cuts is quick and works well. I can't see any advantage, one over the other for the finished product or the time it takes me to do it. I bought into the technology when they made them available and once I figured out what I was doing wrong I haven't looked back.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I sold a good biscuit cutter (DW682K) this year because I rarely use it. It's simply not needed for most edge joints, and for the joints that do benefit from biscuits I can use my router.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

" I'll go a step further with the cons. They don't insure alignment."

If you are not getting good alignment then I would think, with your experience, that you have a machine problem. I once had a machine that would not give repeatable results. Now however One of the main reasons that I use biscuit is to provide repeatable alignment.

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

GeorgeC said:


> " I'll go a step further with the cons. They don't insure alignment."
> 
> If you are not getting good alignment then I would think, with your experience, that you have a machine problem. I once had a machine that would not give repeatable results. Now however One of the main reasons that I use biscuit is to provide repeatable alignment.
> 
> George



What I said was "They don't insure alignment". They don't, and splines don't either. They may though, but I don't have an expectation of any perfection of alignment using biscuits or splines all by themselves. As a craftsman, using any method of joinery and glue, I prepare my procedure with whatever I need prior to glue up to compensate for any problem I may incur prior to starting. I will do dry fits and at the time of the actual glue up have cauls and many wedges handy to coax the fit.

It's entirely possible that I could get lucky and I put the glue where it goes, insert the biscuits, and the joining piece and it all lines up when clamped. Then again, it may not. In my book, it's a little late to go scrounging around the shop for cauls and wedge pieces to make things line up perfectly.

If I detect a machine problem with any machine, I don't use it until it's corrected, either it being a functional problem or a safety one.


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

I have both the PC and DW. I haven't had any alignment problems either. You MUST keep the same face up, on a flat surface, I always lay the pcs side to side to mark boths pcs at same time. As far as fat biscuits I also have that problem. I found that A; once you opent that bag, you MUST put em in a tupperware kind of container to keep humidity away from them. B: If you have some fat ones and you are going to use them right away, put them on a paper plate in the microwave, yes, nuke those puppies about a minute or so LOL LOL it works:yes:


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## Roy Harding (Jun 8, 2008)

I have a biscuit joiner, that I rarely use. When I DO use it - it is to _assist_ in alignment when gluing up large panels. Cabinetman is right - they don't _guarantee_ alignment - but I find that they bring things in real close (and often perfectly), so only minor adjustments are required. I'm just as likely to glue the panel up in stages - but depending upon time pressures this isn't always an option.

As far as storage of biscuits goes - put them in a resealable plastic bag (those freezer bags with a "ziplock" closure work for me), along with a desiccant package - no more moisture problem. I do the same thing with sandpaper - using tupperware type containers (my wife hasn't noticed their absence in the kitchen yet), and again a desiccant package.

I think, like all tools and techniques, use of a biscuit joiner is a function of personal habits and techniques. 

There is no "right" way of making any joint. There are safe and unsafe methods, to be sure - but the "right" joint is functional, strong, and aesthetically pleasing (if that's a factor). How it got that way is entirely up to the woodworker involved.


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## smitty1967 (Feb 24, 2008)

Woodchuck1957 said:


> I have a DeWalt biscuit jointer and I've never had a problem. I use it whenever I can.


ditto...

smitty


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## Tweegs (Sep 8, 2007)

Shamus said:


> I use biscuits and spline depending on the requirement.
> 
> Originally I ran into an alignment problem. After checking the joiner, everything tight and adjusted to center, some cuts would still not line up. Turns out the table I was resting the joiner on was not flat. Every place the table dipped, the slot I'd make in the board was low. Once I understood that and built a flat working surface the problem went away. I do have to be looking for the flatness of the piece I'm cutting the slots in. Same results if I'm not paying attention.


This is the same problem, some slots where either higher or lower than its mate while the others lined up perfectly.
An uneven work surface may produce the problem, but in my case it wasn't likely. At the time I was using the table of my RAS, space was limited and this was the most accessible and comfortable place to do the cutting. For all its faults otherwise, I know the RAS table is both flat and level. I'm sure it was something I was doing rather than a problem with the tool, it was a combination of problems that made me put it aside.

I don't remember the brand name of my jointer, its been that long since I've used it. I do remember it wasn't cheap, around $100.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tweegs said:


> I don't remember the brand name of my jointer, its been that long since I've used it. I do remember it wasn't cheap, around $100.



If $100 isn't cheap, check this out!:laughing::laughing:


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## Tweegs (Sep 8, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> If $100 isn't cheap, check this out!:laughing::laughing:
> 
> ​


:laughing:

Cheap is relative I suppose :laughing:


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I bought one about 20 years ago when they were relatively new and the latest rage. I spent way over $100 back then and that was a lot of money. One of thiose things I just had to have. After having problems edge joining long boards that I didnt have without the biscuit joiner I thought to myself "self, why do I need this?". I put it aside and a year later I sold it. I had a commercial shop back then and to me it was not worth the trouble. I use mortise and tenon joinery, lap joints and dado joints and dont have a need for a biscuit. 
This is my personal experience and it's interesting to see how everyone's experiences differ.


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> If $100 isn't cheap, check this out!:laughing::laughing:


:laughing: Cabinetman, and they offer FREE shipping on that tool :laughing:. Thats mighty big of them.


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## Geoguy (Feb 22, 2008)

I sometimes use biscuits to glue up panels. I don't use a plate jointer, but use a slot cutter on the router table. As long as I mark which side is up, I don't usually have problems. The only real problem I've had is getting them too close to the edge/end where the slot and biscuit can be cut into when triming the panel (yeah, it's a stupid problem brought on by an even stupider woodworker:laughing.


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## Shamus (Aug 22, 2008)

Geoguy said:


> (yeah, it's a stupid problem brought on by an even stupider woodworker:laughing.


If stupider isn't a real word it should be. Done the same thing, very seldom any more but the last time was with a spline and boy was I brain dead on that project.  Ended up adding a breadboard edge to hide my stupidness. After that episode I think I finally got it.


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## 8th gen.carpenter (Oct 8, 2008)

i like to dowel my joints i have a jointer and it just collects dust.


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## Howard Ferstler (Sep 27, 2007)

I have found that when boards biscuit connected on edge are not quite perfect that it is the fault of the boards and not the saw or biscuits. Sometimes, the boards will be warped very slightly and sometimes they are different thicknesses.

The solution, assuming the board assemblies are not too wide and the glue is fully dry, is to run the panels though a thickness planer until they all irregularity free. Then, sand the results for an even smoother finish.

Howard Ferstler


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## boondocker (May 31, 2008)

This string has gotten a lot of attention so my experiences may get lost in the crowd, but I just completed fabricating a frame using biscuits and it went together just fine. The caviat is, as I did my cutting I rigged up a fixture on my bench to hold the short 2 wide X 4 inch long styles so I could cut into the end grain. Prior to that I had assembled the entire piece dry and laid in indexing lines so I cut all the pieces true. I backed up my rails with a thin piece of long plywood nailed to the bench and a piece of sand paper glued to he edge so the workpiece wouldn't slip aside as the blade torqued into the piece. I guess, in my case, jigging up your work piece so it won't move is the critical part of using biscuits.


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## red (Sep 30, 2008)

I think it comes down to personal preference when using biscuits. I don’t recall ever having issues with them and used them often. I can see if someone had trouble with them that it could be easy to say this is junk and not the way to do it. I used them in most glue ups. As for the bump issue, never had it. I did store my biscuits in an empty lacquer container (1 gallon) with a sealed top. It worked fine. I also had air conditioning in my shop so moisture was not a problem. When I start building furniture again, I will own a biscuit joiner again. Red


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I think that Howard and Boondocker have both contributed valuable information. Thank you.

George


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## smitty1967 (Feb 24, 2008)

boondocker said:


> I guess, in my case, jigging up your work




Did him say "jigging?"


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## boondocker (May 31, 2008)

smitty1967 said:


> Did him say "jigging?"


yeah, wait a while & I'll set one up on my bench and show you what I mean .. .. .. .:thumbsup:

.. .. .. ..or, maybe I should have said "fixture"? :huh:


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

I mostly just use the biscuits for joining table tops. Like others here have said, the biscuits haven't ensured alignment. I still have to be very careful with the clamps and culls to keep the boards aligned. 
And I've read that the glue and biscuit can cause a swell at the joint that has to be planed or sanded (I haven't had that yet). But my biscuits tend to be a bit sloppy in the groove.

My scientific guess is that it adds some shear strength to the joint. If anyone thinks this is incorrect, I'd be interested to hear why. Might save me some time on my next table top. 

Good topic. Thanks.
Dave


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I have a Ryobi that I spent $100 on. I am a novice wood worker and have only used the machine on a few projects but I was amazed at the speed that I could cut the biscuit holes and get things aligned and glued up. I thought about buying a slot cutter bit for the router to save money but I can’t imagine that it would be any where near as fast as a biscuit joiner. I have never had "humps" or alignment issues. I lay the pieces to be joined on a flat surface and make a simple pencil mark where I want the biscuit. Making sure to cut marrying slots at the same time to ensure the heights are identical. Also I try to cut the slots at close to the middle as possible if not slightly below middle. I made a folding screen for my father in-law’s 50th birthday. Each section of the screen was 6 foot tall by about 20 inches wide. There were 8 biscuits in each screen section. It would have been a nightmare to try and align all those pieces perfectly at the same time for glue up. Using the biscuits to help me align all the pieces I was able to glue all 3 sections in roughly 40 minutes. In this particular project the biscuits helped me hold everything together in the right places acting as a third hand so to speak.

I also used them on a small table top for my daughter with no troubles.

David


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

David, you live very close to one of my favorite hardwood and exotic lumber suppliers. Wall Lumber at Mayodan. Do you ever go there? I went by there on one of my trips to a high school reunion in the late 90's. A very interesting place and nice people.

George


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I've been on their website but not to the store. I'll check it out sometime.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I haven't purchased anything from this store yet but I browse the prices at http://www.hardwoodstore.com/specialty.html a lot. The price at The Hardwood Store are much cheaper than Wall Lumber. 5.73 for Padauk vs 8.00 at Wall Lumber. I think I should call the harwood store and make sure the prices on their website are correct.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

Just called and 5.73 is accurate. Sorry to be off topic.. So, how 'bout them biscuit joiners???


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