# Help! Soft Maple kitchen cabinets.



## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2010)

We recently built a new home and had our kitchen cabinets custom built. We chose Maple because it is known for its hardness. We paid over $24K for these cabinets.
One week after moving into our home we noticed the cabinets were denting very easily. My husband, a forester by education, became concerned that the cabinet maker had used the cheaper and softer maple for the cabinets because he knows that maple, the hard variety, is very difficult to dent. The denting, however, was just one of the problems. In addition, the darker finish was literally rubbing off. Concerned, we called the builder.
To our surprise, shock actually, the cabinet maker had used soft maple, which was not even a consideration when we chose maple. We believed that when we asked for maple that we would automatically get the harder variety, and for obvious reasons. We also assumed that the entire cabinet, with the exception of the shelves, would be made of maple. Wrong again. The cabinet is made of some other pressed wood, stained to match the doors. The only part of these custom cabinets that are maple are the doors, and the doors are soft maple at that.
We feel as though we have been deceived, almost fraudulently. We are having a very hard time with these cabinets, with the beveled panels "shrinking", exposing the raw wood, the finish rubbing off when I clean the cabinets with Murphys, and the cabinet finish "cracking."
It has been just one year and these cabinets look absolutely horrible, with several of the doors and drawer fronts already in need of refinishing. We are very, very angry. These were not cheap cabinets.
My question.......When one of your clients asks for "maple" would you ever use the cheaper "soft" variety without their knowledge? I know that most people, including my builder, didn't even know that there was such a thing as soft maple. Fortunately, my husband did. He even thinks that it may even be poplar because of how easily it dents. 
In your opinion, do we have a legitimate legal issue? We are not the kind of people who have ever used the court system, but we feel we have been horribly wronged. This is our dream house, a home that we saved 15 years to be able to build. 
Thank you in advance for your answer.


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

Maple might have been the finish, not the wood. Your husband's is a forester and he can't tell soft maple from poplar? My customers sign final orders that include cabinet specifications, face species, stain, and shine of the finish on the gloss meter. 

Is the cleaner you're using the one recommended by the manufacturer? Not all cleaners work with all finishes. Some finish renewers may actually be finish strippers. I've always recommended, in writing, products for care and cleaning of my cabinets. 

A year is kinda a long time to wait to bring a wrong species complaint. If the cabinets were made from the wrong wood they never should have been paid for. They were accepted, paid for, and used for a year, and now there's a complaint. The finish failure may be your responsibility if you've been using the wrong stuff. 

The finish on the cabinets in my house are 25 years old and still good. They are only treated with petroleum distillate based polishes free of silicone. My cabinets are made with particle board tops and wall ends, fir bottoms, fir backs, ash mdf finish ends, sold ash face frames, drawer fronts, and doors. 

A legal case would depend on the paperwork, contracts and specifications. Who bought the cabinets? You or the contractor? All of my good days have one thing in common . . . no litigation. The last time I sued somebody it cost me $13,000 to just get to circuit court. Oh, and I was counter sued. I settled the case out of court. A trial in circuit court would have cost me another $30,000. 

I would imagine the cabinet guy and the contractor's stories will match pretty closely. If you don't have specific documentation, it's he said . . . she said. You could spend 30 or 40 thousand and loose. That'd probably buy a pretty nice new kitchen.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Fortunately for you, the courts are designed to favor the homeowner. Did you have a contract specifying the species of maple? If no, I would think it would be difficult to get any judgment based on the cabinetmaker using soft maple. 

However, most states enforce implied warranties. That means the cabinets are under warranty unless the contract specifically states that there is no warranty. If they have deteriorated beyond what is reasonable within the year, you might be able to get a judgment based on that. A kitchen is a harsh environment so it is difficult to say what excessive wear is. That would be up to the judge. Again they usually favor the homeowner. 

I understand that $24k is a lot of money but this is actually a very reasonable price for a medium sized custom kitchen in my area. Using solid wood for the boxes of kitchen cabinets is never done. It is always either plywood or melamine. Many times the interiors are not even stained to match unless they have glass doors so it sounds like this cabinetmaker cares about his/her work and I would imagine that they are concerned about their reputation. That being the case, he/she may be more than happy to refinish everything for you if the finish has failed which is probably the ruling you would get from the court.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2010)

I use Murphy's Oil Soap to clean them. 

The finish is dark, so my husband can not tell what the actual wood is, but by the way it dents so easily he suspects it may even be poplar. We have no way of knowing.

I complained after one week of occupying the home. The first door I complained about had to be removed and refinished after one week. That refinish wiped off as well. The finish on the rest of the cabinets has been slowly rubbing off over the last year and I have complained numerous times. The cabinet maker keeps removing the door fronts to refinished them only to have the finish rub off again. 

I paid the cabinet maker through the contractor. The contractor recommended the cabinet maker as "the best." There were no "specs" signed. We met at the contractors office, told him what we wanted, he designed, we chose the finish and style, signed the back of the finish sample and that was it.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

If the finish has failed numerous times within a year, there is something wrong. I have learned that there is usually a reason why a tradesman does things a certain way so I am leery to make a judgment without hearing his side. You said that you signed off on the finish sample, what kind of finish was it?


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## MastersHand (Nov 28, 2010)

Wrong site


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2010)

I am not quite sure what you mean by what kind of finish......but the cabinets are a dark finish. The sample of the finish was on an approx 6X6 wood sample. We were given several samples to choose from. Also, the cabinet maker purchased the unfinished doors from a company in North Carolina then he hires another person to apply the finish.

This is what we have learned over the last year. We went with this cabinet maker because he was recommended. We believed that he alone made and finished the entire cabinet. He only builds the cabinet, does none of the finishing and does not even make the doors.

He is a very nice man and I feel badly that we are having this problem, but what is a homeowner to do? We are not difficult people to please, but this is a mess.


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

I read that one of the ingredients in Murphy's Oil Soap is potassium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide is a toxic and highly corrosive chemical used to make soap, in bleaching, and as a paint remover. 

If Murphy's Oil Soap was used on my cabinets it would remove the finish and void the warranty.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

I didn't know if they specified what kind of finish they were going to use, it sounds like they didn't. Now that you are mentioning that he outsources the finishing, I am guessing that the company he uses is spraying a water based finish with the stain mixed in. That is why when the panel shrinks you see fresh wood and that is why the color wipes off. I have installed some prefabricated cabinets that use this type of finish and it is not very durable at all. 

When applying the stain first by hand you can squeeze the stain into the crack of the frame and panel so that when the panel shrinks you don't see the line. Then you spray the finish over that. This way, even when the finish begins to wear, the stain underneath will still keep the color somewhat even. This is a more expensive way to do it though so the guy may have been trying to keep your cost down.

You did sign off on the finish though. I personally would not use this type of finish and I can't say for sure what is going on as I have not seen them. I too would be dissapointed but I really don't know if you can do anything through the courts since you signed off on the finish. This finishing process is widely used in the cabinet industry even though many cabinetmakers advise against using it.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

ash123, there are several formulations of murphy's oil and the original contains a fairly neutral cleaning agent sodium tallate. If the homeowner was not provided with a list of acceptable cleaning methods, it falls back on the contractor to accept responsibility.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

OK I'm going to address a few things.

While "Soft" Maple is not as hard as Hard Maple it is a pretty hard
wood and should not dent easily. Poplar would dent very easily. Since there was no contract and you asked for maple not specifically hard Maple you only have a complaint if Poplar was used.

There are a lot of cabinet shops that outsource the doors since it is uaually cheaper to have them made rather then make them. The cabinet boxes are usually made from plywood of the same species used in the doors. Painters are also generally used in New Home construction to finish moldings, doors and cabinets. So there was nothing wrong or shifty in that respect.

You generally have one year of warranty on new construction warranty. You also usually have one year to file a law suit which could get expensive and take a long time. Not sure if it's worth it or when the year starts for the lawsuit. 

Murphy's Oil Soap is a very harsh cleaner and is used to strip off old finishes at times. So this would not be a good cleaner to use.


Unfortunately You share in some of the blame. You didn't specify Hard Maple nor did you insist on a detailed contract to protect yourself from this kind of problems. 

You are using a harsh cleaner that could be part of the problem. 

I'm not sure if you waited to long to file a lawsuit or not but if not your time is limited.

I'm sorry about the problems your having and unfortunately you may have to use this as a learning experience. It's sad that it comes to that sometimes but it is what it is.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Very tough subject.I'd try working with GC to get the problem resolved.I know that sounds a little,Duh.But would really try to get him in on the fix.....moreso than cabinet guy.Try and stay positive.Best of luck,BW


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I can sympathize with your dilemma. At the stage you're in talking about what you should have done is really moot. The sequence of responsibility for your cabinets is very common in the industry. Many "custom" shops don't make their own doors or do finishing.

Getting the problem solved can be much more involved than just taking the GC to court...even if time lapse permits it. You sue the GC, the GC sues the cabinetmaker, the cabinetmaker sues the finisher, and likely the door manufacturer. By the time all that takes place, you still may lose. I doubt seriously that you could recover a new kitchen out of the melee.

Since your contract was with the GC, he may decide to own up to the problem because bad advertising is the worst advertising. You may do better in small claims court, but even there, a maximum limit is set for damages...in Florida it's $5K or less. That litigation would likely cost less than $100 to file.

Personally, I would appeal to the GC for his honor (if any exists) to make it right. You may have to settle for the cabinet substrate, but the door problems and the integrity of the finish can be solved.












 









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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> You may do better in small claims court, but even there, a maximum limit is set for damages...in Florida it's $5K or less. That litigation would likely cost less than $100 to file.
> .


 
Here's a lesson in small claims court. If you sue me in small claims court, I'll counter sue and petition you into circuit court. Once I counter sue, you can drop your action but you still have the real expense and anxiety of dealing with my suit. Let the games begin. 

I'm not afraid of court or attorneys. I'd rather go to court than go to the movies. 

Another thing . . . Once you threaten litigation, I quit working with you and refer all your contacts to my attorney.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

I wouldn't say that using Murphy's puts some of the blame on you. Some woodworkers recommend using a dilluted murphy's solution on a damp rag for cleaning cabinets. Others recommend diluted dish soap which is even harsher. Anything that cuts grease is going to be hard on the finish. Murphy's is mild compared to most. It would be the contractor's responsibility to tell you not to use Murphy's since he is the one you bought the cabinets from. I'm not trying to contradict what people have said about Murphy's I'm just saying the homeowner is not stupid for using it.

Again, if the finish company used a spray-on stain/finish this is actually a widely used method in the industry so unfortunately you would not have a claim. They could point to the other hundreds or thousands of companies doing it the same way. So it goes back to the contractor not informing you of your choices. I don't think this is grounds for suit against him but you may be able to persuade him to get the doors and drawer fronts refinished with a more durable process.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

ash123 said:


> Here's a lesson in small claims court. If you sue me in small claims court, I'll counter sue and petition you into circuit court. Once I counter sue, you can drop your action but you still have the real expense and anxiety of dealing with my suit. Let the games begin.
> 
> I'm not afraid of court or attorneys. I'd rather go to court than go to the movies.
> 
> Another thing . . . Once you threaten litigation, I quit working with you and refer all your contacts to my attorney.


Your experience differs from mine. In 40 years I haven't been sued...not once. Or, have I needed to sue anyone. Somehow I don't feel like I need lessons in small claims court.:laughing:












 









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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> Your experience differs from mine. In 40 years I haven't been sued...not once. Or, have I needed to sue anyone. Somehow I don't feel like I need lessons in small claims court.:laughing:



I'm with you C'man. 

Ash123 I'm not sure what experience your working from but you seam a little lets say hard on the original poster and almost defensive at times. According to your first post on here you dot your I's and cross your T's with the contracts so you must have gotten burned at least once in the past.


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## Gerald (Aug 21, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> OK I'm going to address a few things.
> 
> While "Soft" Maple is not as hard as Hard Maple it is a pretty hard
> wood and should not dent easily. Poplar would dent very easily.


 :yes:

http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Gerald said:


> :yes:
> 
> http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm


This chart is better it has all 3 on it

Hard Maple 1450
Soft Maple 950
Poplar 540


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## Gerald (Aug 21, 2008)

All 3 are there. Scroll down to yellow poplar


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

rrbrown said:


> I'm with you C'man.
> 
> Ash123 I'm not sure what experience your working from but you seam a little lets say hard on the original poster and almost defensive at times. According to your first post on here you dot your I's and cross your T's with the contracts so you must have gotten burned at least once in the past.


 

Now I have a one man shop that I do maintenance and repairs. I owned a vertically integrated cabinet manufacturing company for 20 years. Many of those years, with over 25 employees finishing a kitchen a day. I've seen every claim there is. Sometimes I had three law firms working for me at once. I was never successfully sued because my paperwork was prolific and my contracts and change orders were all in order. I sold my commercial shop when it was profitable. Then I worked in the industry as a paid manufacturing consultant and as a consultant to distribution. 

Currently, I'm SD court certified and I've worked as an expert witness in cabinet manufacturing related litigation and in the courtroom. My kitchen cabinet orders included one page of terms and conditions, multiple pages of specifications, installation instructions, a written warranty, a written use and care instruction sheet, and a tested contract. All my shop drawings were signed by the client. 

1981 I had a MLC finish on a birch kitchen fail in less than a year. MLC and Norbergs in Sioux Falls told me tough crap. I pulled all the doors and drawer fronts off, sanded them, and shot them with SW moisture resistant lacquer. The customer wasn't happy but they didn't sue me because I fixed the mess the best I could. Later I hired their 18 year old son after school and I sponsored their baseball team.

For years I used Gemini finishes. I never had a failure with those. Now I like SW pre-catalized except I add the catalyst myself. 

The hard facts are still there. If you threaten me with litigation, I quit working with you that second. Second, if you take me to small claims court, I'll petition you into circuit court and counter sue. Third, I'll make you wish you'd never came after me with your attorney. 

My message is: I'd do anything except threaten litigation or sue the cabinetmaker or the contractor.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

ash123 said:


> I owned a vertically integrated cabinet manufacturing company for 20 years. Many of those years, with over 25 employees finishing a kitchen a day. I've seen every claim there is. Sometimes I had three law firms working for me at once. I was never successfully sued because my paperwork was prolific and my contracts and change orders were all in order.



That's incredible...You had prolific paperwork, and change orders were in order, but were still sued, and needed three law firms. Could by chance it have anything to do with the work?












 









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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> That's incredible...You had prolific paperwork, and change orders were in order, but were still sued, and needed three law firms. Could by chance it have anything to do with the work?
> 
> .


I used the attorneys to go after deadbeats. 

I was sued once. That was by my installer who dropped a miter saw on a client's new vinyl floor. I didn't pay the installer for the job until he replaced the vinyl floor as requested by the customer. Of course the installer had let his insurance lapse. I collected the payment for the cabinets two days before we were scheduled to go to court but I waited until we were in court to pay the installer who actually ended up owing me money. 

So he got his rate less the vinyl floor, less the court costs. He worked for me another 12 years until I sold out. It was an odd deal to say the least. He worked with his dad and one day on one of my jobs a pretty big dog tried to attack the dad. The dad cold cocked the dog with a hammer and knocked him out. He thought he had killed the dog and he went in the house and called me. By the time he got back out to check on the dog it had woke up and stayed out of his way the rest of the job. 

On the topic of my work . . . I'm sure it isn't up to your standards


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## Kender (Apr 20, 2009)

ash123 said:


> Now I have a one man shop that I do maintenance and repairs. I owned a vertically integrated cabinet manufacturing company for 20 years. Many of those years, with over 25 employees finishing a kitchen a day. I've seen every claim there is. Sometimes I had three law firms working for me at once. I was never successfully sued because my paperwork was prolific and my contracts and change orders were all in order. I sold my commercial shop when it was profitable. Then I worked in the industry as a paid manufacturing consultant and as a consultant to distribution.
> 
> The hard facts are still there. If you threaten me with litigation, I quit working with you that second. Second, if you take me to small claims court, I'll petition you into circuit court and counter sue. Third, I'll make you wish you'd never came after me with your attorney.
> 
> My message is: I'd do anything except threaten litigation or sue the cabinetmaker or the contractor.





Well Ash, you have me confused. I say this because it sounds as though you have the time and experience to have sawdust in your veins but I think you have been forced to adapt to today's world and that has jaded you a little. I'll admit that I don't know it all and I am still learning new things everyday, however I grew up playing around in my grandfathers custom cabinetry shop. This was back in the 80's and early 90's when pride in your work truly meant something. If the customer wasn't happy you made it right, even if they were wrong you still went out of your way to keep them happy...there were limits to this of course but you get the idea. Things back then were made to last, my parents still use the bedroom furniture that my grandfather made back in 1980. This furniture has been shipped by the military across the atlantic a few times and from FL to AK and back. It has been cleaned with various cleaning agents, had kids and cats climbing on it, it has never been refinished, and to this day it does not show any signs of needing refinishing. So while I don't know all the tricks of the trade I can still spot quality and I truly appreciate fine craftsmanship.

I understand in business you have to progress with the times or you will likely fail. There is not a big nitch for high end real quality furniture/cabinetry. So you have to bend and accept the cheap way of doing things.... like using panel board with vinyl "wood grain" for drawer bottoms and veneered particle board shelves. It sounds like you did a great job of keeping your paperwork and making sure you knew what the customer wanted and making sure the customer understood what they were getting. This probably avoided a lot of issues and for the hard case customers you had the paper to back you up. What I don't get is the attitude of suing them just because they are suing you. If some one sues you your first reaction is to sue them back but in a higher court? Why not just take your proof that you were right and they are in the wrong to court. Then either ask the judge to make them pay your court costs since they were wrong to begin with. If you are in the wrong then as a merchant you should have taken care of the customer better. There is just too much suing clogging up the courts when people should man up and take responsibility.


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## Kender (Apr 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> We recently built a new home and had our kitchen cabinets custom built. We chose Maple because it is known for its hardness. We paid over $24K for these cabinets.



From the description of the cabinets I hope the price is a typo. Based on what you got $2.4k should have been the pricing and even then they should provide you with cleaning instructions if their finish is that cheap. For $24k your cabinets should last decades without needing to be refinished and they should have some intricate detail work... like inlays, dovetailed drawers, decorative columns, tambour doors, etc.

If you got basic door frames with raised panel inserts, basic drawer fronts with a shaped outer edge.......basically a simple design from lowes but made of maple then $24k is still way too much.

One of my biggest peeves is when something is labeled/advertised as solid wood or real wood construction. While technically correct, MDF or particle board is real wood and a solid plank.....as opposed to a veneer of wood over plastic which wouldn't be solid wood. If your going to call it solid wood then it should be wood milled from the tree into flat pieces and not saw dust that is mixed with glue and poured into a mold. When I make something that is supposed to be solid wood I don't use any particle board and if I am going to use plywood I make sure that the person I am building it for knows that parts will be ply for strength (like shelves) or for pricing to avoid the added cost of gluing up panels of actual solid wood.....if they want to pay for the glued up panels then fine but I leave it up to them. 

Considering what you paid you got totally screwed. For one a cabinet shop that out sources the building of it's doors because it can't be bothered to build them in house is not a cabinet shop....they are a box shop, they rate no higher that the car stereo installer that makes carpeted boxes for speakers. Mass produced doors are not going to be "custom" and they are not going to have the quality control that $24k deserves. Then the finish, if it is in fact a sprayed on water based finish then you might as well use crayon because the finish is just barely on the surface. Your money should have bought you a hand finished/stained doors and cabinets. Oil based not water. The doors should have been finished before assembly, with the appropriate areas taped off. This would ensure that shrinking would not show bare wood and that the finish won't stick the panel to the frame. 

The cabinet sides, back, bottom, and shelves should all be maple plywood with edge banding where appropriate. The face frame should be solid maple. The drawers should be solid maple with a maple ply bottom ( dovetailed joints optional). From raw lumber to finished product the cabinet builder should have done it all in house with the individual care that you paid for. Depending on the size of your kitchen and how intricate the decorative parts are the price would obviously change but at retail pricing for an average sized kitchen the materials using all maple or maple ply (not including metal hardware) Should easily be under $2k. Of course the price for labor, tools, and wood work knowledge is a little subjective but seriously $22k is a huge overcharge. When you consider that you got particle board in places and sub standard finish work I would be surprised if this guy has more than $1k in materials in your cabinets. 

The doors being replaced several times is a joke. They can't figure out by niw that maybe they need to tell you a specific cleaner to use or maybe take the time to do it by hand. They are taking more time redoing it several times that if they did it right the first time. It actually sounds like this guy isn't a cabinet "Builder" but rather a cabinet "assembler". He made a killing on profit for these cabinets so even with replacing the doors a lot he knows he has still raked you over the coals.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

I would suggest that you get both the GC and the cabinet maker involved and ask them what will be required to rectify the problem permanently. The cabinet maker will probably be able to tell you what wood was used for the doors, or at least be able to find out from the door manufacturer. I would also suggest that you refrain totally from any mention of lawsuit, as that could turn ugly very quickly. If it turns out that the doors are poplar your only solution may be to replace all the doors with maple. If the doors are made of maple then you may have to look at a total stripping and refinishing of everything. It would be an idea to ask the cabinet guy what a more suitable and durable finish would be. You may have to eat some of the cost, but if you take a non-agressive approach with the parties involved you may be able to work out a cost sharing arrangement that would resolve the situation. I realise what a bitter disappointment this problem is to you, but I am sure that both the GC and the cabinet maker would be willing to work with you to solve it. After all, work is tight, and word of mouth is still the best form of advertising for skilled craftsmen. Good luck in resolving this issue.

Gerry


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Kender $24k is a lot of money but will not even buy high end prefabricated cabinets for a decent sized kitchen. The cheapest line I ever installed still would cost $8000 for a smallish kitchen. 

As has been mentioned, many cutom shops order doors and outsource finishing. I would be comfortable guessing that most order their doors at least for some jobs. A kitchen made completely in house can run well over $30k.

If you are a professional, either you live in an extremely impoverished part of the country or you need to pay more attention to your numbers. I just had to respond again because I feel it is unfair of you to present a $24k custom kitchen as a blatant rip off. I do agree that the finish used was a poor choice and needs to be remedied.


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## MastersHand (Nov 28, 2010)

Well said sketel we run about $1500 a l/f. So even a small 10 x 10 is 30k Just Cabinets so to say 24k is high end is ludicrous . As far as boxes being solid wood there's no cabinet company that offers This 3/4 plywood is what you get in a high end kitchen. Doors were most likely out sourced and he was forced to stain doors with panels in them. These doors go through a lot of climate and moisture changes before they make it to customer. When door aclamates the unfinished part of raised panel becomes visible.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Yeah,what they said(sketel,MastersHand).....Dang,1-2k BARELY gets us started in materials.....wish it wasn't so.BW


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## Allen Tomaszek (Dec 11, 2010)

The difficulty, Ellie, is that unless the contract specified solid wood construction from hard maple it would be difficult to make a case. As has been pointed out by other posters solid wood construction is not the norm and maple can often refer to the color of the finish and not the material being used.

As far as soft maple goes, it is not as hard as hard maple but is the same hardness as cherry and only slightly softer than walnut. I think sometimes the name soft maple gives people the impression that it's a poor wood when in fact it's still a fine hardwood. Just not as hard as hard maple.

In your case I would still check in with the General Contractor to see what can be done. Good luck.


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## Kender (Apr 20, 2009)

sketel said:


> Kender $24k is a lot of money but will not even buy high end prefabricated cabinets for a decent sized kitchen. The cheapest line I ever installed still would cost $8000 for a smallish kitchen.
> 
> As has been mentioned, many cutom shops order doors and outsource finishing. I would be comfortable guessing that most order their doors at least for some jobs. A kitchen made completely in house can run well over $30k.
> 
> If you are a professional, either you live in an extremely impoverished part of the country or you need to pay more attention to your numbers. I just had to respond again because I feel it is unfair of you to present a $24k custom kitchen as a blatant rip off. I do agree that the finish used was a poor choice and needs to be remedied.



Impoverished? No, I live in the Tampa Bay area of FL. The cost of living isn't as high as NY but it isn't the hills of KY either.

I normally get within the ball park on a guesstimate, just running numbers in my head and guessing on the measurements from memory. If it's an intricate project that is going to take smaller pieces then I won't attempt a real estimate without sketching it up....say for instance a kitchen island with cabinets or drawers all the way around. A lot of board ft can be used up in a small space when there are a lot of drawers and doors. Since A few of you seem to think I am way off base I decided to take some real measurements. If I was way off base then I needed to know so I could learn from my mistakes. I didn't go so far as to make a cut list or diagram sheets of ply to maximize use so there is plenty of waste that can be used for shelving but I did not use that waste in figuring the shelving. I also rounded up to the next foot so if something was 28" I rounded it to 3ft. I wanted to make sure I allowed for plenty of extra wood and to be very generous in my numbers.

I used my kitchen for the measurements to get an estimate. Overall the kitchen is 18ft by 13.5ft with 23 linear feet of cabinet. Using the way my kitchen was built and the number of vertical sides, one adjustable shelf for the lower cabinets and two adjustable shelves for the upper cabinets, and 3/4 ply for all of it except the backs which is 1/4" ply. 10 sheets of 3/4" maple @ $100 a sheet is $1000. 5 sheets of 1/4" maple @ $70 is $350. The total for ply is $1350 and that's at retail pricing not wholesale/frequent purchaser/having friends at the lumber yard. The maple face frame, doors, and drawers I wasn't going to take the time to measure out since this is all academic but I figure we can just double the ply cost. So figure $1350 for the frame/doors/drawers and that should be plenty generous. Total estimate for the cabinet is now $2700. For the sake of keeping the numbers simple let's round that up to $3k. So I was bit off on my initial guesstimate but figure in that I have rounded up and allowed for a lot of extra wood I don't think I was grossly out of the ball park.

We have $3k in wood, leaving $21k markup. It was said in a previous post that someone with 25 employees would crank out a kitchen in a day. So let's figure an 8 hour day for 25 employees = 200 man hours. Different areas of the country have different levels of hourly pay and different jobs in the shop would be paid different but for the sake of estimating high let's pay these employees $30per hour.... payroll is $6000 for the day. Add that to the lumber and your at $9k leaving $15k. Let's throw in $1k for hardware and $2k for the one day of operating costs of the shop.....personally I think this is high estimation but I don't want to be accused of not being fair. Now we are at a total cost of $12k, leaving $12k profit.

Don't get me wrong, I think a business is entitled to make a profit but making a killing is nuts.......especially given that a cabinet made this way is like assembly line manufacturing. This means that the quality may be ok but the craftsmanship goes down hill. With this profit what do you do, put Monday and Tuesday together and go buy a boat? Then use Wednesday and Thursday for a new car. Finally take Friday and fly to Hawaii for a weekend getaway.

My example is using all maple, which by Ellie's account she did not get. So the markup on her kitchen would be even higher. Then the finish was total crap. So yes being charged $24k for what she got is outrageous, especially if it was just a simple raised panel design with no fancy work. Just because it's normal for a basic kitchen to run $24k or more doesn't mean it is not a rip off. In my part of the country it is normal for a gallon of gas to be above $2.50 but I think we can all agree that we are being ripped off by big oil. 

If she got hard maple with some walnut or teak trimmed inlay, butterfly inlays at each joint on the face frame, dovetailed drawers made of solid maple, tambour door on the counter top, cathedral topped doors with contoured raised panel, and rail & stile door frame. The finish should be several coats applied by hand with the assembly of the doors done so that wood movement doesn't show bare wood. Put a lazy susan in the corner cabinet, a built in spice rack, a knife drawer that folds down from under the upper cabinets, slide out cutting board built in to the cabinet, decorative stove hood. All this extra intricate work would take more man hours, show a higher level of craftsmanship, and using a small team of 3-5 guys dedicated start to finish on the project would warrant a larger markup but on a $12k cost for the cabinets a $12-18k markup is nuts. If you did all of the listed upgrades, added a detailed inlay on the counter top, used the highest grade hardware, and some exotic wood that brought the cost of the build up to $30k then I could see a $12k markup.

This is one reason why I do all my own work, my time is my own, so all it costs is materials. I won't get ripped off by someone making bank off me and I know the quality is good. Now-a-days it is almost impossible to find someone that will treat your property as if it was theirs. What used to be craftsmanship has died.

Did Ellie get ripped off??? only just EXTREMELY. Even if she just told the GC "I want maple cabinets" in english she is saying she wants cabinets (the object) of maple (the descriptive). If she did not specifically state she wanted the finish to be maple then the descriptive refers to the object. The GC knowing that there is a maple finish and a maple wood should have questioned her better. At the least we know the wood is too soft to be maple, the finish might as well be cake frosting since it wipes away so easy, and the so called "cabinet maker" doesn't have enough pride in his product to do more than make a box and have other people finish it. With just this info the Box maker should have paid HER to take his product. I wouldn't use what he produced in my garage much less a kitchen.

I'm sorry Ellie had her hopes and dreams of the perfect kitchen stomped on and I hope she is able to get this resolved to her satisfaction.


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## MastersHand (Nov 28, 2010)

I guess all the cabinet companies across the nation are wrong. We do an average of twenty four high end kitchens a year. Based on your calculations I'm a millionaire. Not even close there are so many variables you did not consider. Fifteen percent profit is a good job. This topic has been way over hit and is not even the Forum for this topic the only gripe this customer has is the issue with the finish everything else is in line


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Kender, again if you are doing this for a job, you really need to look at your numbers closer. I am replying because I have been self-employed for eight years. I know from experience what it means to undercharge and then wonder why I am struggling to put food on the table for my family. I now run my profit and loss, cash flow and balance sheet regularly so that I can keep track of my actual costs and I know where I am at financially. 

Just to give you an idea, I am starting a new business building wood screen doors. When I first started two years ago, I did like you did in your latest post, thinking I was estimating costs and labor high. I thought the market was way overpriced. Now I am pretty much at the same price level as other businesses. I just finished sales projections, projected expenses and a projected cash flow for the coming year. After all is said and done, I need to have a shop rate of $50/hr in order to make $20. And that is before paying health insurance and without any additional equipment purchases. I hope through increasing volume the next few years I can start paying myself benefits without increasing my shop rate but whatever the numbers tell me, I've got to listen.

If you are doing this as a business, do yourself a favor and spend some time doing your financial reports. Learn from my mistakes, it's a lot cheaper than learning from your own. Like has been mentioned, I am off topic but if I can save somebody the hard knocks I've had to take then I want to at least try.


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