# Craftsman Hybrid TS



## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Hey all - I posted this in the general topic forum by accident and I assume the mods didn't see it as I ask them to relocate to this one. It's gotten some views, but no response so I am hoping that is due to the location of the original post.

Basically, I am looking for advice on improving my dust collection for my TS. I have it connected directly to my HF DC however, the performance seems to be lacking in the removal of dust from the interior cabinet. I am not sure if this is due to the saw not being sealed up enough to generate the proper working space or what.

I am trying to take advantage of dust collection due to working in our garage so I would like to minimize the impact on my workspace. This is by far the biggest culprit and could use some advice from the forum.

Thanks in advance.

PS. MODS, please feel free to delete/merge/handle the best you see fit the original post to eliminate the duel topics.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have a 22124 Craftsman*

It has a large internal cavity with a sloped floor exiting at the base in a 4" port. A lot of dust settles around the sides and doesn't get sucked out the port. Same issues?

The reason is, and I find this to be true in my other saws, is that only :airborne dust" is removed by the DC, and then not all of that either. Settled dust remains inside the cabinet. The only answer I would have is to keep the dust from settling somehow so it gets removed. I don't think a DC with a 4" port and a 1 HP or 1 1/2 HP blower will get it all regardless, just not enough CFMs to be efficient. 

I have a Bosch 4000, Job Site saw which has a blade housing beneath the table with a 2 1/2" shop vac port at the rear and it does a pretty fair job of getting most of the dust because it encloses the blade and picks it up at the point of generation. This would be a far netter solution than the huge internal cabinet found on most saws. So, I guess my answer is, there isn't one ..... :thumbdown:


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Woodnthings - That's exactly the problem. I was thinking maybe my saw wasn't sealed enough to allow for generating enough suction within the cabinet. 

One thought I had was to increase the slope but I haven't explored that capability with aggression.

I don't intend on "upgrading" my DC anytime some so I was hoping for some low cost mod ideas for the saw itself.

Thanks for the input.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You could either...*

Raise the floor of the cabinet to another higher port OR contain the saw blade better with a housing with it's own port, and I'd go with a shop vac 2 1/2" port.

I don't think the settled dust is an issue, since it's settled.  It's only an issue when it's clean out time, when you disturb it all and it gets air born. You could hook up the DC to the lower port and a shop vac on "blower" inside the cabinet with the door closed, and cause all the dust to get sucked into the DC.

It would have been so easy to make a factory blade housing like the Bosch and do it right to start with.... :yes:


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't want to impose on anyone's sense of what is good, right, and orderly in the universe, but why not just leave the settled dust where it is?

It's not harming anything in the saw (assuming it's not wet and causing rust), and wouldn't contain any fine particles that could cause lung problems. Any dust that would be stirred up would be swept away by the DC air flow, so wouldn't get caught in the lift mechanism, etc. Just a thought from an admittedly lazy person!


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Raise the floor of the cabinet to another higher port OR contain the saw blade better with a housing with it's own port, and I'd go with a shop vac 2 1/2" port.
> 
> I don't think the settled dust is an issue, since it's settled.  It's only an issue when it's clean out time, when you disturb it all and it gets air born. You could hook up the DC to the lower port and a shop vac on "blower" inside the cabinet with the door closed, and cause all the dust to get sucked into the DC.
> 
> It would have been so easy to make a factory blade housing like the Bosch and do it right to start with.... :yes:


I thought about the floor raising idea just insuring to leave enough for tilting the blade. True on the blade housing, that hindsight is 20/20 effect for sure.

Your suggested clean-up method is pretty much what I do now. I was just hoping for improvements if there was such a thing.



jdonhowe said:


> I don't want to impose on anyone's sense of what is good, right, and orderly in the universe, but why not just leave the settled dust where it is?
> 
> It's not harming anything in the saw (assuming it's not wet and causing rust), and wouldn't contain any fine particles that could cause lung problems. Any dust that would be stirred up would be swept away by the DC air flow, so wouldn't get caught in the lift mechanism, etc. Just a thought from an admittedly lazy person!


Thanks for you response. I agree. The "settled" dust isn't harming anything. It's just that I was under the impression and hoping the the DC would remove all (most) of the dust from the cabinet. Not being able to see how effective others with this or similar saws operated, I just thought that I was not set up properly although that's pretty hard to do.


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

*Craftsman 152.221140 TS Improvements*



abetrman said:


> Basically, I am looking for advice on improving my dust collection for my TS. I have it connected directly to my HF DC however, the performance seems to be lacking in the removal of dust from the interior cabinet. I am not sure if this is due to the saw not being sealed up enough to generate the proper working space or what.
> 
> I am trying to take advantage of dust collection due to working in our garage so I would like to minimize the impact on my workspace. This is by far the biggest culprit and could use some advice from the forum.


After using my Craftsman TS for a couple of years, I thought the dust collection could be improved, so I decided to start trying some modifications. As I surveyed the cabinet and table, I noticed a lot of areas that leaked. Here are the modifications that I completed on my Craftsman 152.221140 Hybrid Cabinet Table Saw:

1. Red Cabinet Access Door Top - I covered the opening in the top of the door. I am not sure why it is there. I assumed that it is for the motor when the saw blade is set to a 45 degree angle, but when I put the motor in that position it does not go into the opening. I made a cover using 1/4" plywood and a lip to fasten it to the door.

2. Red Cabinet Access Door Hinge - The hinge has a very large gap in it when the door is shut. I used a strip of thin (1/8") cedar and attached it to the door side of the hinge. When the door is shut the cedar seals the door to the cabinet.

3. Legs to cabinet seam - There is a seam where the legs are fastened to the cabinet that leaks. I used some black electrical tape and covered the seam completely. I made sure that the tape went completely around the cabinet and covered the complete seam.

4. Tilt Slot Front & Back - These were both easily covered with magnetic photo sheets. I cut out half circles on one end of the sheet to fit around the tilt shaft.

5. Table to cabinet - There are large openings between the bottom of the table top and the cabinet top. This modification took the longest time to complete. I removed the top of the table (with the help of a friend) and set it upside down on the floor. I then created a cardboard template of the cabinet top. The template was for the inside and outside edges of the cabinet top. I included the four (4) holes for the bolts that hold the table to the cabinet. 

The holes were used as reference points when I placed the template on the bottom of the table top. The template showed me where there were gaps in the bottom of the table top that needed to be filled with water pipe insulator foam. I cut sections of the foam to fill all the gaps. I made sure that the foam held itself onto the table, so when I flipped the table top over, the foam would not fall out. (I considered using the spray foam, but I thought that it would make a mess. In hindsight, it might have been easier.) 

My friend helped me lift the table top back on to the cabinet and I made sure that the foam had stayed where I had placed it. 

6. Zero Clearance Inserts (ZCI) with holes - My friend mentioned one day, that I should try vent holes in my ZCI. I thought it was a great idea, so I did some GOOGLE searching on the topic. I was not able to find any one that had drilled holes in their ZCI, so I tried it. I drilled about 10 - 1" diameter holes on the wider side of the insert and 5 - 1/2" holes on the skinnier side in each of my ZCI. I saw an immediate reduction in the amount of saw dust that was ending up on my table top.

The dust collection on my table has definitely improved with the modifications. Here are the two (2) major improvements that I have observed:

1. I get a lot less saw dust on my table top. Especially, when I am NOT using my blade guard. I cut a lot of "non-through" cuts, like dados, rabbets and slots. They all require the blade guard to be removed.

2. The bottom of my cabinet does not accumulate saw dust any more. Most of the saw dust goes right out the port and into my Thein Top Hat Pre-separator.

(Sorry, but I didn't take in photos of the improvements. If anyone is interested, please let me know and I will take a few and post them over the weekend.)

Possible Future Improvements:

1. Dust collection/guard over the blade with a 2-1/2" port - I am not yet convinced that I can improve the table top dust collection with this option, but I may make one and see how it works.

2. Change 4" port to 5" port - This improvement is tied to #1. If I do #1 and like it, then I will leave the port as a 4". If I don't implement #1, then I will change the port to a 5" diameter. (The reason is that the area of a 2-1/2" diameter hose + 4" diameter hose is closer to the diameter of 5" dia hose I run from the Thein Top Hat Pre-Separator.)

3. Sell my Craftsman and get a Grizzly G1023RLX table saw. This is very unlikely to happen because I have my current saw working the way I want it to. I really don't want to start over making table saw accessories again.

Dust Collection Equipment
-> Jet DC-1100 - 1-1/2HP with 6" port and .5 micro filter canister 
-> Thein Top Hat Pre-separator (TTHP) with 6" input/output ports
-> 6' long 4" flexible hose from TTHP to the table saw

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you so much for the detailed response. I know what's in store for me this upcoming weekend.

I did the same thing with the holes in the ZCI (not the same size) cause I noticed so much was being left on the top of the saw.

I will also shorten the length of the 4" hose I have connected to my DC. I can role the DC to be closer to the saw and not need the extended length I am using now.

A better setup of the DC is coming (i.e. hose and filter upgrades). Just saving a few dollars right now cause I no I am going to have to move with an upcoming new job assisgnment.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*1999 Dakota cold air intake box*

It has a 3" or 4" port on the bottom and would possibly make a under the table blade shroud....I donno? Anything similar with enough depth to allow for tilt and lowering the blade would be great. It will be a while before I can go any further on this concept, but I'm suggesting looking "outside the box" for solutions, actually at an air intake box..... :laughing:


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

*I love it*

Woodnthings, out of the box thoughts are my favorite. You nailed that with this one lol.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

My solution is alot less work.....I keep one of these in the shop.....and every few weeks with the dust collector on I stick it down the saw throat (saw off of course)....and just blow around a bit.....dust collector sucks it all up and it's good to go!!

http://www.harborfreight.com/air-blow-gun-with-2-ft-extension-68257.html


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> My solution is alot less work.....I keep one of these in the shop.....and every few weeks with the dust collector on I stick it down the saw throat (saw off of course)....and just blow around a bit.....dust collector sucks it all up and it's good to go!!
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/air-blow-gun-with-2-ft-extension-68257.html


Compressor is on the list of still want to get items, but I can do the same with my shop-vac blower attachment.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

abetrman said:


> Compressor is on the list of still want to get items, but I can do the same with my shop-vac blower attachment.


That would work too. I also considered modifying the inside of mine....but for a quick easy clean out a few times a year it wasn't worth the hassle.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

It is a matter of containing the sawdust, whether this happens at the saw or at the dust collector either have to be emptied eventually.

I would be more concerned about what is happening to the dust above the table.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

FrankC said:


> It is a matter of containing the sawdust, whether this happens at the saw or at the dust collector either have to be emptied eventually.
> 
> I would be more concerned about what is happening to the dust above the table.


I agree with you on the above table work as well. I have shark guard that I connect to my shop vac for that purpose.

As a quick update, installed an in-dust collector thien baffle. Shorten the dc hose, filled in various air gap locations and it is working much better as an overall system.

Happy with it so far. Thanks for the advice given.


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## tewitt1949 (Nov 26, 2013)

I may be wrong but to get the saw dust out of the table saw base, I feel the problem is that the base is sealed up too good. Not enough air flow through the base to carry the bigger dust. You have it sealed up and the only air that is being sucked through the base is what go past the blade, there is virtually no air movement in the base. You need more air vents where the dust collects to keep it moving.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

tewitt1949 said:


> I may be wrong but to get the saw dust out of the table saw base, I feel the problem is that the base is sealed up too good. Not enough air flow through the base to carry the bigger dust. You have it sealed up and the only air that is being sucked through the base is what go past the blade, there is virtually no air movement in the base. You need more air vents where the dust collects to keep it moving.


tewitt1949, there are plenty of open spots on the saw. I think the problem was that it was too open not allowing for some negative pressure to be generated


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

tewitt1949 said:


> I may be wrong but to get the saw dust out of the table saw base, I feel the problem is that the base is sealed up too good. Not enough air flow through the base to carry the bigger dust. You have it sealed up and the only air that is being sucked through the base is what go past the blade, there is virtually no air movement in the base. You need more air vents where the dust collects to keep it moving.


Interesting comment...I am not sure I follow the logic or the fluid mechanics of the comment. Maybe you could explain your logic in more detail.

My limited understanding of fluid mechanics is that in order to keep the same flow from the intake to the output, they need to have the same area. If a 4" port is used on the output side, then the equivalent area needs to be on the input side. (In order to simplify the calculations, I am assuming minimal friction from the sides of the cabinet and the internal surfaces.)

Since a 4" diameter flexible hose has an area of 12.5 square inches, then in order to keep the same flow at the table insert, holes equaling 12.5 square inches or less need to be in the insert. If there are more openings in the cabinet, then the flow will be reduced.

A 1" diameter hole area is 0.78 square inches and a 1/2" diameter hole is 0.20 square inches. So, by drilling 10 - 1" diameter holes and 5 - 1/2" diameter holes the equivalent area is about 9 square inches. 

I don't know how to calculate the "friction component" effect, so I left it out and did some trial and error instead. I first tried only 5 - 1" holes and 2 - 1/2" holes in the plates. I then compared the dust collection with an insert with 10 - 1" holes and 5 - 1/2" holes. The latter insert left less saw dust on the table with the same cut. Maybe I should try 15 - 1" holes and 8 - 1/2" holes next.

If there is anyone out there that knows about fluid dynamics, please post and help us out with the calculations.

Thanks.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

*Ouch!!!*

Eric - You just made my brain hurt lol. this dust collection thing seems to be a very complicated thing. The tips you gave me appear to have worked very well. I even added a couple extra holes in the zero clearance insert. I already had a couple of 1.25" or so in there for taking the insert out when changing.

Thanks again.


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

abetrman said:


> I agree with you on the above table work as well. I have shark guard that I connect to my shop vac for that purpose.
> 
> As a quick update, installed an in-dust collector thien baffle. Shorten the dc hose, filled in various air gap locations and it is working much better as an overall system.
> 
> Happy with it so far. Thanks for the advice given.


Johnny:

That is great to hear! 

Let me know what other improvements you come up with.

Eric


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

abetrman said:


> Eric - You just made my brain hurt lol. this dust collection thing seems to be a very complicated thing. The tips you gave me appear to have worked very well. I even added a couple extra holes in the zero clearance insert. I already had a couple of 1.25" or so in there for taking the insert out when changing.
> 
> Thanks again.


Johnny:

Glad I could help. Just remember, sharing is a two-way street.....

Enjoy your dust reduced environment...Your lungs will thank you!

Eric


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## tewitt1949 (Nov 26, 2013)

ORBlackFZ1 said:


> Interesting comment...I am not sure I follow the logic or the fluid mechanics of the comment. Maybe you could explain your logic in more detail.
> 
> My limited understanding of fluid mechanics is that in order to keep the same flow from the intake to the output, they need to have the same area. If a 4" port is used on the output side, then the equivalent area needs to be on the input side. (In order to simplify the calculations, I am assuming minimal friction from the sides of the cabinet and the internal surfaces.)
> 
> ...


 You got a lot more detailed than I did, but if I understand you, your saying basically the same thing I did. Air movement is critical to keep it clean under the saw. You have to have holes in the cabinet equivalent in size to the suction hose. 
There is a certain point where you can get too many holes in the cabinet also.


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

First, many thanks for the idea of putting holes in the ZCI- it's simply brilliant! I've been frustrated that after I put my carefully crafted insert, I ended up with more dust on the surface than with the sloppy fitting stock one it replaced. As soon as I can back into the shop, making my insert Swiss-cheesy will be my first project.

Re: fluid dynamics, it gets pretty complicated pretty quickly. Air _flow_ (cfm) is one factor, but another is air _velocity_, which will increase with smaller area- but at the expense of flow. Hole orientation (should they be angled toward the blade?), interactions (turbulence between holes), hole shape (would slots be more effective than round holes?), etc., etc.

As a definite non-expert in fluid dynamics, it gives me a headache, too, and reminds me of the adage: "You might be an engineer if you'll assume that a 'horse' is a 'sphere' in order to make the math easier." So, until somebody with more smarts than I comes up with a better solution, I'm just going to go with the suggestions here, and enjoy a cleaner table top :smile:

Again, thanks to all for sharing ideas, experience, and expertise.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*my theory....*

Table saws are notoriously unsealed between the top and the cabinet in my experience and there are more gaps and spaces in addition to all the slots for tilting and for motor cooling. It's a losing battle to keep the particales in suspension and the air flowing at a fast enough velocity to evacuate them into the DC. You would need a hiuge CFM DC to keep up.

Some manufacturers have enclosed the blade with a shroud, Bosch to name one I know of. This is way more efficient than trying to evacuate the entire saw cabinet/base.

That's not to say that all the improvements mentioned above should not be used, by all means try them.

I have an older 12" Powematic saw with a huge cabinet. I made a blade shroud using sheet metal and soldered a 4" port so it catches most of the dust generated by the blade from below. I use an over arm dust collector above the blade connected tpo a high velocity air stream on a shop vac. Between the 2 systems, it works really well.


If your dust collection system is REALLY powerful and you have put enough holes in the insert, you COULD end up sucking the workpiece right to the top of the saw so that it won't move....just sayin' :boat:


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> If your dust collection system is REALLY powerful and you have put enough holes in the insert, you COULD end up sucking the workpiece right to the top of the saw so that it won't move....just sayin' :boat:


:laughing::laughing: I thought about that, but my system is no where that strong, at least not with the size of the under cabinet. It had some good suction on it though. I could feel a very slight pull on the insert when I first put it in with the DC on. Definitly not enough to hold the piece I cutting in place (although it can act as a reverse featherboard of some sort lol).

Great point and definitly something to consider with stronger or better flowing DC's. I read in several threads here that I can expect a little bit better flow if I switch to a Wynn filter, which I plan to do at some time in the future.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

*Air Cleaner*

Quick question - Do you guys run your air cleaner during shop time or after?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*a seldom mentioned issue*



abetrman said:


> :laughing:
> Great point and definitly something to consider with stronger or better flowing DC's. I read in several threads here that I can expect *a little bit better flow* if I switch to a Wynn filter, which I plan to do at some time in the future.


No one mentions this principle: Air in = air out... in theory.

So we are drawing air/dust from all different sources in flex pipe and straight pipe etc. All that air has to go somewhere.... either out the bag filter or the cannister filter. Which will flow more air? The cannister by a large margin, especially when the bags get clogged. 

The cannister filter then serves 2 functions: 
1. to allow the most air to escape.
2. to filter the finest particles out before the air is pumped out into the shop.

As important as it is to collect the dust, it's also important to have an efficient filter. A 30 micron bag will probably "flow" more air than a 1 micron bag, BUT it will allow larger particles to escape than are recommended for the best health conditions.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jdonhowe said:


> I don't want to impose on anyone's sense of what is good, right, and orderly in the universe, but why not just leave the settled dust where it is?
> 
> It's not harming anything in the saw (assuming it's not wet and causing rust), and wouldn't contain any fine particles that could cause lung problems. Any dust that would be stirred up would be swept away by the DC air flow, so wouldn't get caught in the lift mechanism, etc. Just a thought from an admittedly lazy person!


I agree. I have a Unisaw and a big DC and sloped floor and it doesn't get it all either.

Al


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

abetrman said:


> :laughing::laughing: I thought about that, but my system is no where that strong, at least not with the size of the under cabinet. It had some good suction on it though. I could feel a very slight pull on the insert when I first put it in with the DC on. Definitly not enough to hold the piece I cutting in place (although it can act as a reverse featherboard of some sort lol).
> 
> Great point and definitly something to consider with stronger or better flowing DC's. I read in several threads here that I can expect a little bit better flow if I switch to a Wynn filter, which I plan to do at some time in the future.


Abetrman:

Hey, your supposition is correct! I definitely feel the pull from my DC through the table saw zero clearance insert. The DC "whines" at me also. That is one of the reasons that I use a flexible magnetic cover over a couple of the openings. If the pull gets too much, they act as a "relief valve" until the board passes over the insert.

I am hoping that once I get the dust collection hooked up to the saw blade guard, all of the CFM will go to the blade guard when the board is covering the insert.

Eric


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## ORBlackFZ1 (Dec 25, 2013)

abetrman said:


> Quick question - Do you guys run your air cleaner during shop time or after?


During!!! 

My shop is closed in, with only a small window and a 6' X 8' door on one end. The two (2) Jet AFS-1000b units keep the air circulating and filtered. I have a Dylos dc1000 pro particle counter. I use it to tell me what speed I should be running my Jet units on.

After I started using my Dylos, I completely changed my thinking on what processes and equipment created the most particles in the air. It also helped me determine if changes to my dust collection were improving the air particle count or not. 

The Dylos DC1000 Pro is a very important device for improving dust collection in my shop. (I have no affiliation with Dylos what so ever!)


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

ORBlackFZ1 said:


> During!!!
> 
> My shop is closed in, with only a small window and a 6' X 8' door on one end. The two (2) Jet AFS-1000b units keep the air circulating and filtered. I have a Dylos dc1000 pro particle counter. I use it to tell me what speed I should be running my Jet units on.
> 
> ...


I have a 3 car garage, but at night, I work with the doors down as to not disturb my neighbors. Other than the doors, I only have 2 small thru-wall vents. I am trying to get in the habit of using my DC and shop vac whenever possible to minimize the dust, just was worndering what you guys did as a SOO when it comes to the Air Cleaner. Thanks for the feedback.


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## berdman (Jan 9, 2013)

*Ending the dust problem*



abetrman said:


> Woodnthings - That's exactly the problem. I was thinking maybe my saw wasn't sealed enough to allow for generating enough suction within the cabinet.
> 
> One thought I had was to increase the slope but I haven't explored that capability with aggression.
> 
> ...


The best way I have found to keep the shop free of dust is to not saw any wood.


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## mark_anderson_us (Jan 14, 2014)

genius!


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