# Has anybody used serious tool works tools?



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I watched a demo at the turners club tonight, and he turned a large platter. One nice thing about this one was it was double ended. It went in a cam lock handle. When one edge got dull he released the tool and put it back together with the sharp end out. In about 30 seconds he was cutting wood again with a sharp tool. He said when freshly sharpened it was the sharpest tool he owned. I am considering buying their 5/8 or 3/4 gouge, but I can't justify spending $100 on a tool handle. These tools are a little bit more expensive then Thompson tools, but they are longer so they are really about the same. Their lathe is the best I have ever seen. Serioustoolworks.com


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

I've looked at double end tools. I don't really see the advantage. It only takes me about 30 seconds to sharpen my tools. It is nice being able to take a tool out of the handle because the weight of the handle can sometimes affect how easy it is to sharpen. However I don't really see an advantage to having another tool on the other end. When you do have to go back and sharpen you have to sharpen 2 tools instead of just one so I don't see you've gained a lot of time. The Serious tools however are very high quality and excellent tools. OneWay also sells some double ended tools.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I personally don't have any need for double ended tools because I don't do demos. If you are doing a demo it takes way longer than 30 seconds to drive back to your shop and sharpen your tool and drive back.


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

I haven't used them but I do see two advantages.
First your can have a swept back (like Jamieson) on one end and a traditional or bottom feeder on the other end.
Second, on the ones under 3/4" they are 16" long. Most bowl gouges have only 6-7" of flute. To register in a jig there is usually about 2" extended and the jig takes up another inch at least in order to have a flat area to seat against. Unless you grind a flat from the flute to the ferrule for the jig to seat you only have about 3" usable. With the 16" length you would have at 9-10" of usable flute.

They state that Tompson tools with fit their handles so I assume their tools will fit the Tompson handles. Tompson handles are much less expensive but has set screws rather than a cam lock.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I am going to order at least one maybe two. I will let you know how it works out.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I called them and asked the difference between their regular gouges and their ultimate gouge. Their regular gouges are only M2 steel and they are still priced pretty good to have a 16" flute. Their ultimate gouges have a Rockwell hardness of between 68 and 70 they won't reveal what alloys they use for them. The ultimate gouges have a 12 flute, but they claim they last 4 to 8 times as long as their A2 gouges. I would like to know how they compare to Thompson tools, but I guess the only way to find out is to buy one.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Their ultimate gouges have a Rockwell hardness of between 68 and 70 they won't reveal what alloys they use for them.


 Yeah, I saw that on the website link in your first post.
They list all the things their "ultimate" gouge is _*not*_—M2, A11, 15V and so on—then get all coy about what it _*is*_. (I got five bucks says it's M42 HSS. And that they're made in China)
Whatever it is, I'm repelled by that childish "our steel is so special that we refuse to name it" marketing strategy.

My own experience with M2 steel is that it's pretty darn good, and as someone who heads for the grinder to refresh an edge _at the very first instant_ I notice performance starting to degrade, I can't say I've noticed a significant advantage to using tools made from the more exotic steels like Thompsons or the Henry Taylor Kryo line.
A fresh edge is not sharper, and the edge durability is enhanced only very marginally in my own experience.

I've wondered about double ended tools in the past—Oneway has made them for years—but they always kinda struck me as being a solution in search of a problem, but I have never even _seen_ one, never mind tried one out, so I'm not well equipped to evaluate them.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The guy I talked to on the phone was a turner, he and the guy at the wood turners club said their tools were sharper than any other brand.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> The guy I talked to on the phone was a turner, he and the guy at the wood turners club said their tools were sharper than any other brand.


If that's _really_ the case, it's because of the method of sharpening more that any inherent quality of the steel.

Very few turners fuss with sharpening their gouges to the absolute finest edge which that particular steel (M2 or whatever) is capable of holding. To do that we'd have to have a literal mirror finish both on the bevel and on the inside of the flute.
But we don't (I sure don't anyway) polish our flutes to that level, and most of us settle for a bevel surface straight off some kind of grinder. Some grinders give a smoother surface than others, but most of us can live with what comes of an 80 grit wheel easily enough, and while that may look nice and smooth to the naked eye, in a powerful magnifier it looks more like a miniature mountain range.

The idea that there is a steel out there which will give a significantly sharper edge without any alteration in sharpening practice or sharpening equipment is just marketing hype.

I'll bet there were folks running around in the Roman Empire swearing up and down that the bronze from their particular foundry (and we can't disclose what we put in it!) produced sharper swords than "any other brand".


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The guy at the turners club wasn't trying to sell anything.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> The guy at the turners club wasn't trying to sell anything.


 OK, if he stated that he paid full price for the tools and has no relationship with Serious Toolworks of any kind, then I'd believe that.

But do you really believe that you'll notice those tools having a sharper edge than your current M2 tools _even if you use the exact same sharpening techniques and equipment_?

I don't.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I have been using Thompson tools, and I really haven't been super impressed with their edge holding. The serious lathe tools really are priced pretty good when you consider their flute length. I think I am going to buy one of their ultimate gouges, and one of their regular m2 gouges. I really just want to compare the ( secret steel tool) to a Thompson, and then see how the M2 compares. You are probably right, unless I spend hours sharping them it won't make a huge difference.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

I did a test last year on how sharp the various steels will get. I used high carbon steel (according to carvers this is the best) High speed steel and a Thompson V11 particle metal steel. Sharpened them to 1500 grit sandpaper and then stropped them. I could not tell the difference. Each one of them would make hair jump off your arm and cut through paper like it was butter. Couldn't cut through silk dropped over the blade like in the movie but then Myth busters tested that and neither could they. 
Anyway what I found when playing with this is that all of the current metals will attain an edge sharper than most any of us will ever use in turning, and I couldn't prove that High Carbon Steel got any sharper than the V11 or HSS. 
I've been using Thompson tools for quite a while now and do think they hold an edge longer. Not a huge amount and the average turner won't know the difference because it's so hard to quantify when dull arrives. I had to turn a bunch of aluminum for a glass artist. 8" discs 1" thick. Had to turn beads on some and coves on some. To say it dulled tools quickly was an understatement. So consequently I used all of my spindle gouges one after the other and then stopped and resharpened them all. I could barely get one pass across the aluminum before the HSS tools were dull. I could turn the whole bead or cove before the Thompson's dulled. So on wood it's harder to tell but cutting something really hard it was pretty easy.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> I have been using Thompson tools, and I really haven't been super impressed with their edge holding.


 That's been my experience also.

Thompson's tools are excellent tools, I don't want to be misunderstood about that, and they are certainly not overly expensive for what you get. And Doug Thompson by all accounts is a real nice guy, so I'm happy to give him some business.

But I have not found personally that they hold an edge for significantly longer than good quality and well-tempered M2 tools.
I use both a 5/8 Thompson "U-shaped" gouge and two 5/8 P&N "Supa" gouges interchangeably for roughing out bowls and all kinds of other things, for example, and it seems to me the edge lasts about the same amount of time on all three. 

And given the kind of sand and other abrasive crap in the bark I'm ripping off as fast as I can that's quite a while, all things considered.
I'm equally happy with all 3 tools, but the P&N Supa gouge is $20 less and both have a 7" flute.


I'm not sure how long an edge is "supposed" to last, to be honest.
I find in some woods (hard, dry local Elm for example) that I need a freshly sharpened edge on a bowl gouge quite often. 
Maybe 4 or 5 times in the 30 minutes or so it takes to finish turn both the inside and the outside of a regular salad bowl of about 10" diameter. 

But with the same sized bowl in Aspen, say, I can sometimes finish turn 2 or 3 bowls without going anywhere near the grinder.

I have no real idea how often other turners need to refresh the edges on their tools, so I don't know if my experience is typical or way out in the weeds somewhere. 
I'd actually like to hear more about that from others, just to get some sense of context. Could be a topic for another thread, maybe.

Edit; Now I think about it, while it's true I don't notice much difference in the durability of the edges on my bowl gouges (where the edge angle is somewhere around 50-55 degrees or so) I do notice more durability in spindle and detail gouges where the edge angle is more like 30 degrees.

A more acute angle is, of course, inherently more fragile, and it does seem to me that the exotic steels hold their edge better in conditions like that.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Like 9K', I'm also turned off by stuff like "secret" steel ingredients. It reeks of infomercial kind of BS. They don't have a foundry that is making their own secret steel -- they're just buying steel round bar stock and then either milling the flute themselves or sending it somewhere to have it milled. Then they have to send it somewhere to have it heat treated. Hardness isn't everything -- impact toughness and grindability are two characteristics that would be important for turning tools. A tool that is too hard might not sharpen to a smooth edge.

I have a large assortment of brands and types of steel. My favorite is a Sorby M2 gouge. I'm not sure why because I don't see a remarkable difference in longevity between the various kinds of steel. Also, according to data that I see on Crucible Industries website, a Rockwell hardness of about 60 is typical for things like milling c utters and similar applications. When the edge is too hard, chipping is typically the result rather than typical wearing. Chipping can mean that more grinding is necessary to get a sharp edge.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> When the edge is too hard, chipping is typically the result rather than typical wearing. Chipping can mean that more grinding is necessary to get a sharp edge.


 That makes total sense to me, and I've observed that very thing in plane irons over the years. A plain carbon steel plane iron doesn't have quite as hard an edge as those "upscale" steel versions (like the Hock irons, or the laminated Japanese ones), and will thus lose its scary sharpness a little more quickly. 
But there's _much_ less chance you'll chip a piece out of the edge when you hit a real hard knot.
And a chipped edge is just the worst, 'cos then you have to regrind the iron to get rid of the defect, then work all the way up through the honing grits all over again to get back in business. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes or more, depending on the damage. 

The same is true for wood chisels and carvers' gouges, especially those big heavy duty socket slicks which you will pound hard with a monster mallet, like in timberframing applications and such. Impact resistance is more valuable in situations like that than hardness of the edge.

A shaving edge is easily maintained with regular light honing, but if you let the edge get worn down badly, or worse yet chipped, it's _much _more work to get it back.

That's why plain carbon steel is preferred by so many people who use those kinds of tools a lot—you have to refresh the edge more often, sure, but the total time spent sharpening is _much_ less once all the beans are counted.


Since I come to turning from traditional hand tool usage in restoration joinery and carpentry, that's why I instinctively stop using a turning gouge the instant I notice the edge is starting to fade. I'll set it down and pick up another one with a fresh edge. Eventually I run out of gouges with fresh edges and I'll stop and sharpen them all

All they usually need is just a single very light pass on the wheel which takes almost no time at all. Seconds only.

It's perfectly possible to continue to turn with a gouge for a while after the initial sharpness has faded, by pushing or pulling the gouge through the wood harder for example, but then I end up needing several light and more attentive passes on the grinder to get the sharpness back instead of just one very quick routine one. 
So then I'm looking at anything up to a couple of minutes standing at the grinder like a muppet instead of just a few seconds.

My operating rule of thumb is that if I'm having to use more force on a gouge to make it cut than is needed to push a toothpick into a fruit cake, then it's time to refresh the edge. :thumbsup:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

So you guys think I should buy their A2 gouges, and not pay nearly double for the "special" steel.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Well that's the interesting part about the Crucible metal steels. Vanadium can only be about 4% melted into steel. In particle metal you can get up to 15%. Vanadium is what makes a steel tough and resistant to chipping. When I first saw particle metal steel it was at a factory we were photographing. I had a long discussion with the engineers. He told me they first started looking into after seeing it used in critical places in NASCAR transmissions and suspension parts. You could make it harder than regular steels without having it fracture. It also increase the wear on gears. 
So in theory you can make a cutting edge harder without as much chipping as other steels. When I did the research for my article on making your own tools most turning tools were hardened to 58 rockwell. I know Doug is hardening his new tools to 62. Since I haven't been trying to track what others are doing for a while now it could be that other steels will handle that hardness. Don't know for sure. 
As far as when to sharpen. man that's a tough one and varies for every turner. I also tend to sharpen a lot. Probably more than necessary it's just that I enjoy cutting with a sharp tool and if you can reduce the tear out at each stage of a roughing process you reduce the time to sand so I sharpen often. I'd say most of the time if your having trouble at the lathe it's because the tool isn't sharp enough.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> So you guys think I should buy their A2 gouges, and not pay nearly double for the "special" steel.


 I'll have to say it's hard to know without you talk a little more specifically about your current dissatisfaction. What is it, specifically, that you wish to improve? 

You seem to be saying that the Thompson tools you're using now are a disappointment to you with regard to their edge-holding ability, but you don't say what you're comparing them to or how often you're having to sharpen them.

If you're expecting to purchase gouges from Serious Toolworks or Harry Potter Toolworks or anywhere else which will suddenly and magically hold an edge dramatically better than your Thompsons, I think you will be disappointed, because nothing in my own experience suggests the difference in steels is that significant.

Some tools hold do an edge better than others, I'm ready to accept that, but the differences are much closer to being subtle than dramatic.

This is why in my previous comment I was seeking the experience of other turners here with regard to how long they customarily turn before they decide to re-sharpen a gouge. 
My own strategy as I described above is to refresh the edge as soon as I notice the performance has begun to degrade, and in some timbers that can be 10 or more times while turning a single bowl and in others I can turn 2 or 3 bowls on a single sharpening.

So I'm thinking that if you're having to sharpen more often than other turners you know, or if your tools are not cutting as smoothly as you see in videos and in demonstrations, then the problem is much, _much_ more likely to be in your sharpening strategies or equipment or even your turning technique than in inferior tool steel, and especially if you're using Thompson tools, because there's nothing inferior about them at all. They are certainly at least as good as anything I've ever used.

My suggestion would be to investigate all those possibilities thoroughly and meticulously _first_, in order to see if the source of your difficulty can be chased down _before_ you spend any more money trying to solve problems by using different steels.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I am happy with the Thompson tools, but I originally thought they would do better. I am not trying to do drastically better than the Thompson tools because I know it can't be done. I am really just adding more tools to my collection. I have to sharpen my Thompson twice to rough out a green 12" bowl. If I do most of the work with carbide ( buying Byrd inserts at $3 each I can afford to do so) I can rough out two or three bowls before sharpening the Thompson. I have a 3/8 and 1/2 Thompson and cheap psi 1/2 gouge. I just want more than three bowl gouges is the biggest reason I am buying more.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> I am really just adding more tools to my collection.


OK, I understand.
So maybe at this point what you're looking for is a real good bang for the buck?
If you ask any 10 turners what gouges are the best bang for the buck you'll get at least a dozen answers.

Here's mine. 
A 5/8" U-shaped bowl gouge from P&N in good and well-tempered M2 steel with a 7" flute for $66, so you can almost get two of them for the price of one upscale exotic.
Just clean up the inside of the flute a bit with a slipstone to remove the tooling ridges and this tool rocks. 

All P&N tools are good—I have a skew and a couple of spindle gouges and a detail gouge from them too—and their prices just can't be beat.
And yes, I pay full freight when I buy them and no, I don't have any relationship with P&N other than being a satisfied user.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The best bang for the buck was the idea. I also "need" more scrapers.


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Somewhere in all this is the issue of the difference between Needing and Wanting! We've all seen someone use a tool in ways we didn't believe could be done. Sometimes we buy the same tool and STILL don't believe it can be done. 

My take on all of this is that, basically, you get what you pay for. Without doubt, there are tool makers that make a superior tool in comparison to some others. I get that. If we conducted a blind test, could you tell the difference? I'd love to see that done.

And having said that, I have a set of Hurricane tools that work just fine. The reason I say that is that they cost less, require more sharpening so there's more lost steel, but THEY COST LESS! I originally bought them to LEARN how to sharpen and they've served me so well that I keep replacing specific ones. However, I also own several Thompson tools as well as one of Ellsworth's deep "V" fingernail gouges that is the finest bowl gouge I've ever held from the perspective that it just cuts well, as long as it's sharpened. And that's only MY OPINION! 

I'll continue to buy the Hurricanes for heavy roughing simply because that process wrecks roughing gouges. Nothing quite like roughing over a .45 cal bullet or nail. And if I'm going to ruin a gouge, let it be the less expensive one.

So, my opinion, for what it's worth; use what works for you but never stop looking and asking questions.

Jerry


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