# wood glue? or construction adhesive?



## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

I am building a bookshelf and where the pieces meet, (like the runners that will support the shelves for instance), I was going to use wood screws and construction adhesive as well. Or would wood glue be better? I used screws and loctite construction adhesive when I build my subwoofer box, and that thing took so much abuse! In fact, the loctite was what I used to secure the air tube and the only thing that kept it in place. Held up like a champ. So, adhesive? woodglue? Does it really matter?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Wood glue.

G


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## Paarker (Mar 20, 2013)

corbmonster said:


> I am building a bookshelf and where the pieces meet, (like the runners that will support the shelves for instance), I was going to use wood screws and construction adhesive as well. Or would wood glue be better? I used screws and loctite construction adhesive when I build my subwoofer box, and that thing took so much abuse! In fact, the loctite was what I used to secure the air tube and the only thing that kept it in place. Held up like a champ. So, adhesive? woodglue? Does it really matter?


To me when you say runners that support the shelves I'm seeing a cross grain problem. How to you plan to build this? A picture or two would be a help to see what you have planned.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Imagine a 3/4 inch thick, 1 foot wide board standing 4 feet tall. And on this board, there are several 10 inch long pieces of 1x2 secured to the width of the board. These 1x2's will support the weight of the shelves. Runners maybe a bad choice of words. I'm not sure.


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## Miller Woodworks (Dec 11, 2013)

A standard yellow wood glue would be more than strong enough to support the weight, assuming you're gluing side grain to side grain. It looks like that's what you're doing.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*doesn't sound like it me...*



Miller Woodworks said:


> A standard yellow wood glue would be more than strong enough to support the weight, assuming you're gluing side grain to side grain. It looks like that's what you're doing.


Sounds like long grain on the vertical and long grain on the 1 X 2 supports at 90 degrees..... The screws will be better in an oversized or elongated hole. This is routinely done with little or no consequences, so you may be OK, I donno?

With dados in the verticals and glued, you will have a better condition to allow for expansion across the width. :yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Instead of going to all the trouble of using runners, adhesives, or drilling elongated holes, why not just drill two ¼" holes (on both verticals), and use shelf clips. IMO, it would look a lot cleaner, and in the future could make the shelf adjustable if need be.


















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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Really not that complicated. It's a board, getting screwed into another board (plywood). With wood glue between them. No bigs. I'm sure it would be fine with just a couple wood screws. I just wanted to reinforce it. Because. I'm a nube. And slightly paranoid about my own abilities to do this.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Those would be called cleats. Either adhesive or glue will work, your choice. Normally the plywood grain would run the other direction and you are using construction plywood, not cabinet grade plywood. Don't sweat any of it, it's a first project and you are learning. Obviously, you need some bookshelves, go for it, you can step up your game later.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks for clearing up my ignorance of terminology! (not sarcasm, I'm serious) The plywood I'm using is not construction grade. I'm using AC sanded pine. While it is not a sheep of oak, I wouldn't call it construction grade. What is underneath the piece I'm using is some CDX though. Donated from a friend.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Think HARD about Cabinetman's suggestion = holes and cleats for shelf supports.
My GF just dropped $25+k for a total new kitchen. All cabinets with adjustable shelf support. When you don't know for sure what to put where, supreme advantage.

I gutted the original kitchen, left only the paint on the walls. As in EMPTY room. Kinda fun. You all NEED 2 of the Lee Valley "Box Tools." Makes renno a dream (but loud).

Instead of a stumble for 2 people, there are now 4 or 5 work spaces. 2X the cupboard volume _and_ a built in DW.

corb: to directly answer your question about your application, yellow carpenter's glue (and clamps) should hold whatever load you need in a small book case. And, some construction adhesives are designed to stay pliable so some sag is a risk if you don't do your homework about what you buy.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

So when you (everyone) refers to shelf clips, are you referring to these? If so, the thought crossed my mind. I considered it. But I didn't think it would work to be honest. a 34.5 inch long shelf loaded with text books, notebooks, etc. I didn't think they would be up to the task. I also didn't think a 1/4 deep hole in sanded pine plywood would hold up the the challenge of supporting the wight either. Either the clip wouldn't hold, or the wood under the hole wouldn't hold. I just didn't have any faith in it.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> So when you (everyone) refers to shelf clips, are you referring to these? If so, the thought crossed my mind. I considered it. But I didn't think it would work to be honest. a 34.5 inch long shelf loaded with text books, notebooks, etc. I didn't think they would be up to the task. I also didn't think a 1/4 deep hole in sanded pine plywood would hold up the the challenge of supporting the wight either. Either the clip wouldn't hold, or the wood under the hole wouldn't hold. I just didn't have any faith in it.


Yes, those shelf supports will work just fine. I've never had one break. You would drill a ¼" diameter hole, about 3/8" deep. They will hold without wallowing out the hole. If you are concerned with that happening, you could install metal grommets like below.

























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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

I will strongly consider it. Should I drill the holes out before I stain and poly? Or after? I believe I remember hearing someone here mention using peg board as a template for drilling the holes (put tape over every other hole). Sounds like a great idea.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

could / should I use 3 clips per side? It's a 12 in deep shelf, it's not like I don't have room to spare here...


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## USNrider (Jul 26, 2013)

It sounds like you're concerned that the 3/4" thick plywood wouldn't hold up to the weight of the books you plan to put on the shelf. If it does in fact sag from the weight of the books you could add the cleats/runners you already described and still have the shelves adjustable. You could put the side uprights in a position that will allow the shelf clips and still have a 1x2 along the front edge of the shelf. If the shelf will in fact be plywood then the 1x2 would give it a nice finished look, make it stronger, and even hide the shelf clips if you don't want people to see them. You could even add a 1x2 along the back edge of the shelf if you really wanted to stiffen it up, but I doubt it would be needed unless you're trying to stick a few bricks on the darn thing.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> I will strongly consider it. Should I drill the holes out before I stain and poly? Or after? I believe I remember hearing someone here mention using peg board as a template for drilling the holes (put tape over every other hole). Sounds like a great idea.


I would drill first. Peg board works good as a template.



corbmonster said:


> could / should I use 3 clips per side? It's a 12 in deep shelf, it's not like I don't have room to spare here...


Only two clips per side will do.


















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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Am I going to have to take some of the width off of the shelves to account for the thickness of bracket? I would think the combined thickness of brackets on both sides would be close to 1/8 inch.


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

Definitely a better solution using the shelf clips. I used cleats in a project to accomplish the same thing you are trying to do and I wish I would have just used the clips. The shelfs are removable and it works fine, but it was a lot of unnecessary measuring and adjusting to get them aligned and glued/clamped. 

Never thought of using pegboard as a template, that's awesome.


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

corbmonster said:


> Am I going to have to take some of the width off of the shelves to account for the thickness of bracket? I would think the combined thickness of brackets on both sides would be close to 1/8 inch.


Can you use these? Brusso Shelf Supports, then you don't have to trim.

Here is a link to some ideas Here

If that's not what you were talking about, disregard


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Yes, those shelf supports will work just fine. I've never had one break. You would drill a ¼" diameter hole, about 3/8" deep. They will hold without wallowing out the hole. If you are concerned with that happening, you could install metal grommets like below.
> View attachment 85931
> 
> 
> ...


 +1

The metal grommets would be the way to go with construction grade ply. I have never needed then nor have I ever used them cabinet grade plywood.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm not using construction grade plywood.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> I'm not using construction grade plywood.





corbmonster said:


> Thanks for clearing up my ignorance of terminology! (not sarcasm, I'm serious) The plywood I'm using is not construction grade. I'm using AC sanded pine. While it is not a sheep of oak, I wouldn't call it construction grade. What is underneath the piece I'm using is some CDX though. Donated from a friend.


The plywood you show in the picture and your description is construction grade, versus "decorative grade"...like a hardwood plywood. Plywood with softwood faces is considered "construction grade". Pine is a softwood.


















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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Now that that has been cleared up: Eh.. I guess in a battle of semantics I wouldn't call this stuff construction grade. It's easily 10 X more aesthetically appealing than B-C, or CDX. But if it's being defined by the hardness, then I guess it doesn't matter.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> Now that that has been cleared up: Eh.. I guess in a battle of semantics I wouldn't call this stuff construction grade. It's easily 10 X more aesthetically appealing than B-C, or CDX. But if it's being defined by the hardness, then I guess it doesn't matter.


It's not the hardness, but what is used for the faces. The core material also plays a part. 








 







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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Noek said:


> Can you use these? Brusso Shelf Supports, then you don't have to trim.
> 
> Here is a link to some ideas Here
> 
> If that's not what you were talking about, disregard


The L - shaped supports by design will hold more weight, the upright part when wedged between the shelf edge and side of carcass prevents the pin from tipping.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

So, Home Depot rates these support pegs http://tinyurl.com/lg68dh3 a higher weight support tolerance vs. these supports http://tinyurl.com/m5m2tjh that are both 1/4 inch. I think I'll go with the pegs. Especially since I won't have to trim my shelves


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> So, Home Depot rates these support pegs http://tinyurl.com/lg68dh3 a higher weight support tolerance vs. these supports http://tinyurl.com/m5m2tjh that are both 1/4 inch. I think I'll go with the pegs. Especially since I won't have to trim my shelves


I vote for the "L" shape. The pegs get turned easily and can fall out when manipulating the shelf. 








 







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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

The sleeves have a slightly larger OD. Do I hammer them in? drill the 1/4 " hole first of course.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> The sleeves have a slightly larger OD. Do I hammer them in? drill the 1/4 " hole first of course.


They just push/slide in.








 







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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Should I stuff / fill the holes with something (newspaper?) when I stain, or polyurethane?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> Should I stuff / fill the holes with something (newspaper?) when I stain, or polyurethane?


If I have multiple holes for adjustment I just stain out the holes with a Q-Tip. You shouldn't get an amount of finish in the hole to make any difference.








 







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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

There's also this type of shelf standard:


http://www.hardwarestore.com/bookcase-standards-658340.aspx

Less elegant than the holes, but infinitely easier to install, especially if you just surface mount them. If you want, you can rout a channel to recess them into. It depends on how nice you want the whole thing to look.


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## corbmonster (Oct 23, 2013)

Yep. I got a hold of some peg board to use as a template for drilling the holes. So when I get home today, I'm going to buff a couple spots with 150, drill the holes for the supports, and connect one of the corners. If the shelf is 12 inches deep, where do you think I should place the holes for the supports? Looking at the sides, should they be 2 inches from the front, and 2 inches from the rear? Or 3 inches from the front, and 3 inches from the rear?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

It's not critical, 1½" from front and rear is fine.








 







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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

corbmonster said:


> So when you (everyone) refers to shelf clips, are you referring to these? If so, the thought crossed my mind. I considered it. But I didn't think it would work to be honest. a 34.5 inch long shelf loaded with text books, notebooks, etc. I didn't think they would be up to the task. I also didn't think a 1/4 deep hole in sanded pine plywood would hold up the the challenge of supporting the wight either. Either the clip wouldn't hold, or the wood under the hole wouldn't hold. I just didn't have any faith in it.


For the record I have a 100+ year old cabinet bookshelf still using the original shelf pins (basically like in your link) with little to no sagging on any of the shelves and no tear-out whatsoever on the holes. It's not pine ply, but the pins will be more than sufficient for your needs. 

That said, I find them to be a pain in the ass to drill for and would do dadoes or cleats before shelf pins any day of the week.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Shelf pins/clips work fine. Sometimes plywood has voids so the grommets might be worth it in plywood. The most common hole size for pins is 5mm, some of the older style ones are 1/4". The only disadvantage I can see is the plywood being inclined to not stay straight. A face frame would fix that, so would a let in back. Glue: Yellow, white, melamine is preferable to adhesive in woodworking. They all allow a little creep but not nearly as much as construction adhesive. If you can't stand any creep Urea formaldehyde is the solution. In our production shop we use Franklin Titebond original for raw wood based materials. If gluing raw wood materials to a finished surface Franklin's melamine glue is the solution. (Bond only as good as the hold of the finish material!) TiteBond 3 for wood exposed to high humidity and occasional wetting.


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