# SAND or STRIP oak table to accept India Ink?



## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

Hello - new member here. I am completely new to refinishing furniture, so aside from re-painting an old wood vanity I have little experience. 

I have a large, solid oak dining table that I would like to refinish in a black color. I've read experiences with black stains, gels, etc. and come to the conclusion that applying India Ink might work out the best for my wants/needs. 

SO

The table is "as-is" from the manufacturer - it has a medium brown stain to it and what may be a clear protective poly over the top. Its in great condition and seems fairly smooth. 

Do I sand the finish off with say 100grit followed by 180 before applying some coats of India Ink?

OR 
Do I only need to apply a chemical stripper?

Advice? 

Tips on how to apply india ink? (Soaked rag, brush, foam applicator)


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## Just Bill (Dec 29, 2008)

To restain any wood, you must completely remove the old finish/stain. Very difficult to do with oak, unless you sand off quite a bit of the surface. But india ink??????????????? Why not some Minwax Ebony??


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

misc802 said:


> Hello - new member here. I am completely new to refinishing furniture, so aside from re-painting an old wood vanity I have little experience.
> 
> I have a large, solid oak dining table that I would like to refinish in a black color. I've read experiences with black stains, gels, etc. and come to the conclusion that applying India Ink might work out the best for my wants/needs.
> 
> ...


a striper will work better on oak. Oak has pours that will keep the old finish in their. I don't belive you could sand down deep enough to get the finish out. A stripper and than use a brush to scrub even than after most is off. If you don't get all out of the oak it will not stain even. You got a lot of work to do this. good luck


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## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

Just Bill said:


> To restain any wood, you must completely remove the old finish/stain. Very difficult to do with oak, unless you sand off quite a bit of the surface. But india ink??????????????? Why not some Minwax Ebony??


I've been reading some conflicting reviews/reports on staining oak in a black or ebony finish. 

Many claim that it doesn't quite get the oak "black" enough, even after multiple coats. 

Also, being a DIY'er - I've heard that india ink does not "build" as much, and application is pretty easy/straightforward. 

If I decide to strip the finish - should I be using anything else to remove any residuals from the surface? 

Also - after stripping, should I be just brushing with fine steel wool or scotch brite pad? Or should I pick up some fine sandpaper (220 grit?)


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Just Bill said:


> To restain any wood, you must completely remove the old finish/stain. Very difficult to do with oak, unless you sand off quite a bit of the surface. But india ink??????????????? Why not some Minwax Ebony??



+1.:yes: If you are new at refinishing, what you use, and how it's applied depends on your skills, and whatever finishing equipment you may have. If you have no spray capabilities you're almost limited to wipe on finishes. 

Generally, the existing finish has to come off, and a very toxic chemical stripper has to be used. It's an MC (methylene Chloride) based stripper. You must follow the directions to the letter. Beyond whatever the stripper can remove (and it may take more than one application), you will likely need to wash (wipe) the remainder with lacquer thinner. Then a sanding might be in order. 

If the table is a veneer, your sanding has to be limited as you don't want to perforate the veneer. There are a few choices for a black coloring to include a black aniline dye (AKA lampblack) in an alcohol base or a water base. There are also off the shelf stains in oil base and waterbase. With some experimentation black paint, both oil base or water base can be diluted to work like a stain.

This sounds like a large project for a beginner, so you must choose if you want to tackle the project yourself, or have it done professionally.













 







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## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> +1.:yes: If you are new at refinishing, what you use, and how it's applied depends on your skills, and whatever finishing equipment you may have. If you have no spray capabilities you're almost limited to wipe on finishes.
> 
> Generally, the existing finish has to come off, and a very toxic chemical stripper has to be used. It's an MC (methylene Chloride) based stripper. You must follow the directions to the letter. Beyond whatever the stripper can remove (and it may take more than one application), you will likely need to wash (wipe) the remainder with lacquer thinner. Then a sanding might be in order.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the advice! 

There is no veneer on the table....

and I was thinking of using a stain, but heard that India Ink might be easier to work with and would give a deeper black (which is what I'm after). Is india ink the same as the black aniline dye you mentioned?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

misc802 said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> There is no veneer on the table....
> 
> and I was thinking of using a stain, but heard that India Ink might be easier to work with and would give a deeper black (which is what I'm after). Is india ink the same as the black aniline dye you mentioned?


For a simple answer, it can be. Dyes can be purchased as a liquid or a powder.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Stick with the ink.


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

chemmy said:


> Stick with the ink.


Agreed!


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## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

I think I will give the ink a go....

After the table is stripped:

Should I be sanding with fine grit paper? 
Or just apply some lacquer thinner followed by brushing with a scotch brite/fine steel wool

Also - 
What the best way to apply india ink or black dye? Wipe on with a saturated rag?


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## Foresta Design (Dec 26, 2011)

Just Bill said:


> To restain any wood, you must completely remove the old finish/stain. Very difficult to do with oak, unless you sand off quite a bit of the surface. But india ink??????????????? Why not some Minwax Ebony??


India ink does give a very unique look. Like any dye or stain it has its difficulties but with a nice poly it can look very sleek. I would advise that ink will pull the grain so make sure you sand super smooth and pull the grain and sand before putting on the ink.


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## TylerJones (Dec 4, 2011)

I mix India Ink with waterbased ebony stain. India ink alone can give a weird sheen. The wb stain evens out the color profile while leaving the effect truly black.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Thats true TJ, that's why it best to thin out more and apply multiple coats fro the best results. I usually apply 5 such coats, but that's up to the individual. the weird sheen is called bronzing, caused by to heavy of a concentration of dye matter, you can even get that with to concentrated synthetic dyes, and it seems to stand out most when using black.


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## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

chemmy said:


> Thats true TJ, that's why it best to thin out more and apply multiple coats fro the best results. I usually apply 5 such coats, but that's up to the individual. the weird sheen is called bronzing, caused by to heavy of a concentration of dye matter, you can even get that with to concentrated synthetic dyes, and it seems to stand out most when using black.


What kind of dilution do you recommend? 

And with h20?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

misc802 said:


> What kind of dilution do you recommend?
> 
> And with h20?


distilled hydorgen oxide [water,lol] 

with the brand i was using i was thinnig it 1 part ink to 2 parts water with the intention of applying 3 coats to get the same color as 1 coat would do, turned out to still not be dark enough for me, so i applied the other 2 coats to where i was satisfied. I woudn't thin it out more than that and first off i would thin it less just to see the applied results before making that determination Always make samples first never do on the poroject itself unless in an unseen area like the bottom and coat with clear a few times at least just to make sure it's going to look ok. .


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## Dave66 (Apr 6, 2012)

How certain are you about that "solid oak" business? If your table is from a manufacturer, there's a real good chance that the oak parts are oak veneer on some other wood. Look at the underside and any edges you can see. If it's veneered, you may have issues getting it stripped.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Dave66 said:


> How certain are you about that "solid oak" business? If your table is from a manufacturer, there's a real good chance that the oak parts are oak veneer on some other wood. Look at the underside and any edges you can see. If it's veneered, you may have issues getting it stripped.


Excellent suggestion Dave sometimes we take for granted if a poster says it's something, they definitely know for sure. In the case of a non woodworker or someone new to it, it very well could be that since to them it looks all the same then it must be, and yet be fooled by sales literature descriptions like " all solid wood construction" [seeing that veneer is solid wood just in thin sheets, it's not total deception, just, a way to skirt the veneer issue] . misc802, post some pictures if you will so that this can most likely and quickly be determined, just to be on the safe side. 

As cautious as your being with everything else as to making sure you do this right, it never hurts to double check just to be sure. Unless you already have and know positively through expierience, there is no veneer skin on the top, do you?


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## misc802 (Apr 11, 2012)

I can say with a fair amount of confidence that this is a solid piece and not veneered. I will be sure to double check though, just to be absolutely sure.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

misc802 said:


> I can say with a fair amount of confidence that this is a solid piece and not veneered. I will be sure to double check though, just to be absolutely sure.


Then you should be good to go. :yes:


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> After the table is stripped:

Complete and thorough stripping is important. Any residual finish will impede the even coloring of any stain. I have found with oak that first applying the ink or dye will not give a deep black color. To get the deep color, I follow with a gel stain or a black pigment stain as a second application. Liquid stains frequently will not get deeply into the oak pores. Rubbing on an oil based pigment stain or a gel stain evens out and deepens the color.

Finally, let me strongly suggest you do only on chair first. Go through you whole re-finishing process. That way you learn how to do things and will see how it looks. If you mess up or don't like what you see, you only have one item to repair.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

another option all together is logwood extract, ferrous sulfate, and gallotannic acid with a wash of pottasium dichromate and hematite crystals after the first has dried. 

or how about analine hydrochloride solved in alcohol followed by copper sulfate in distillled water?The most permanent black ever developed and the most toxic!![even if you could get the stuff, don't try it!!!]

Stick to whats easiest and readily available, there are literally dozen of methods to make wood black without the need to poison yourself!! 

Tannic acid and ferrous sulfate being the least toxic and easiest.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> another option all together is logwood extract, ferrous sulfate, and gallotannic acid with a wash of pottasium dichromate and hematite crystals after the first has dried.
> 
> or how about analine hydrochloride solved in alcohol followed by copper sulfate in distillled water?The most permanent black ever developed and the most toxic!![even if you could get the stuff, don't try it!!!]


Just curious...why even mention all that?









 





 
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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Just curious...why even mention all that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Then pm me.


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## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm new to finishing as well so I'm no expert. What I used on my oak cabinets was general finishes water base black with Indian ink. This worked very well and was nice and black.i will say I used the black stain on its own and it was really black too. This was on new wood also.


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