# Crown Coping Virgin



## C&D Woodcraft (Dec 1, 2006)

Okay guys, I'll admit it, I've always used miters with my crown molding. Recently I coped some baseboard and really liked how it turned out. I'm giving it a try with crown, but I'm cheating with the use of the easycoper (www.easycoper.com). 

After trying a couple copes I was surprised at how little material on the coped piece actually touches the full piece. I always assumed that full thickness of the coped piece would butt up against the other. (There's a pic to explain what I'm saying). Is that the way all coped crown is, or is that just because of the back cutting angle of the easycoper?

Thanks for the input guys.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

CD,
It's due to the backcutting angle. You'll have a small edge to touch the mating piece. Cut the coped piece a hair long so you can spring it into place for a tight fit. For crown, as compared to baseboard, you have to be careful that it is properly seated at the ceiling wall joint. If you rock one or the other the joint may not close up. They both have to be on the same plane.
Mike Hawkins


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## kreg mcmahon (Jul 25, 2009)

from the picture it looks like you coped an outside corner? in that case you need to only cope inside corners. you should know that, just in case.

then the cope part that comes out would be correct.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

kreg mcmahon said:


> from the picture it looks like you coped an outside corner? in that case you need to only cope inside corners. you should know that, just in case.
> 
> then the cope part that comes out would be correct.



From the picture it looks like an inside corner to me. I don't think I'd spend the money for a coping jig. After you do one or two, you get the hang of it pretty quick. With such a narrow blade, it's getting the "feel" for the angle and movement.


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## C&D Woodcraft (Dec 1, 2006)

It's definitely an inside corner (the backside of an inside corner--which is the part I'd never seen before). 

Sounds like that's the way it's supposed to end up--just a thin edge touching the adjoining piece. (It does look nice and tight on the front side). 

Cabinetman, Do you cope with a jigsaw and or coping saw? The jig made it really fast with a jigsaw--maybe a two minutes for each cope.

Thanks.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

C&D Woodcraft said:


> Cabinetman, Do you cope with a jigsaw and or coping saw? The jig made it really fast with a jigsaw--maybe a two minutes for each cope.
> 
> Thanks.




I learned with a coping saw, but have tried a jig saw. Jig saw is a bit bulky and the blades are wider than coping blades. I prefer doing them by hand.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

CD,
I use a porter cable scroll saw, model 7549 to cut my copes. It's an older model with a very small cutout on the base plate with an adjustable guide block on either side of the blade. I cut the majority of the wood pretty close to the line and finish up with a rat tail file. Once I get warmed up with the first few pieces, I can cut a cope joint and file it in about 30-40 seconds. Most of the newer scroll saws have a huge hole in the base plate. I always blast the tool reps at the shows about this and they don't understand why anyone would want an almost solid baseplate without the big hole until I explain it to them. It does take a little practice and you have to watch where your fingers are at all times so you don't pinch them or nick them.
Mike Hawkins


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

Try it with a coping saw. Try it a few times. If you don't like it go back to the easy coper (which is actually a pretty cool jig). I also prefer to cope mine with a coping saw. takes longer, but always seems cleaner to me.


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## plyboy (Aug 15, 2009)

*Coping crown moulding*

I use a tablesaw to cope. After cutting the compound angle, take several in-cuts 90 degrees to the joint, then carefully drag the moulding sideways across the blade. You can get close, keep the blade low for a sharp back angle, then finish off with a 4" angle grinder with a sandpaper disc. Fine finish with file or emery board. Works for me. Yea power tools!


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## mwhafner (Jan 16, 2009)

If you have a considerable amount to do and you use a jigsaw that will accept it, you may want to look into a Collins Coping Foot - http://collinstool.com/base.php?page=collins_coping_foot.htm. It is about the only alternative to a coping saw that really speeds up the process and provides great results.


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## David Craft (Aug 20, 2009)

When you work alone you need a hangar for the other end of the crown molding. They are very easy to make. Hang it on a 7 sinker nail fasten one end go to the orher and put a nail in it. Slide the hangar up off the nail and finish nailing the molding.

Will send photos as soon as I get the attachments figured out.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

David Craft said:


> When you work alone you need a hangar for the other end of the crown molding. They are very easy to make. Hang it on a 7 sinker nail fasten one end go to the orher and put a nail in it. Slide the hangar up off the nail and finish nailing the molding.
> 
> Will send photos as soon as I get the attachments figured out.



*WELCOME TO THE FORUM*

I found working alone to use these braces that are sold by HF. The ends have gimbaled rubber pads. Adjustable height. They work great. In the pic below it's shown holding up a backer for crown.
.


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## frostr2001w (May 21, 2009)

test


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## ihackwood (Sep 5, 2009)

use a coping saw and learn to back cut you will never go back to miter nothing,it's a skill but you can learn it,if my car wasn't in my shop i would give ya a tutorial ,


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## mencheman (Sep 24, 2009)

I am alittle confused by the photo.
why am i seeing so much meat on the white piece. if you backed cut it i should only be seeing the profile


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mencheman said:


> I am alittle confused by the photo.
> why am i seeing so much meat on the white piece. if you backed cut it i should only be seeing the profile



*WELCOME TO THE FORUM*

If you are referring to this photo:
.








.
The piece on the right just dead ends ot is just short of the corner, no backcutting on that piece. The piece on the left is profile and backcut to fit. The view in this photo is like you are in the corner looking out to the backside of the mouldings.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

I am surprised that you do not know of this man, Basswood, and this technique..............


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## NKYDarrell (Sep 14, 2009)

that video looks cool but noisy and messy.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

NKYDarrell said:


> that video looks cool but noisy and messy.


Didn't they say something like that about skill saws? :huh:


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

Man, last summer my first mistake was doing oak crown for the in-laws as my first crown project. My second mistake was thinking that I could cope crown that doesn't have a constant rise profile; the geometry just doesn't work.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Streamwinner said:


> Man, last summer my first mistake was doing oak crown for the in-laws as my first crown project. My second mistake was thinking that I could cope crown that doesn't have a constant rise profile; the geometry just doesn't work.



IMO, there's no geometry to it. It's just a matter of following a line that's the shape of the moulding.


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

There's a lot of geometry to it. Following the profile line doesn't work when the moulding goes up, down, then up again (see pic).


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> IMO, there's no geometry to it. It's just a matter of following a line that's the shape of the moulding.


It's simple backcutting. Don't contribute to the mysterious shroud of voo-doo. You lean the saw, and cut. True, sometimes you change the direction of the lean some, but this becomes second-nature after a bit of trial and error fitting.


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

Willie T said:


> It's simple backcutting. Don't contribute to the mysterious shroud of voo-doo.


Voodoo? Really?

Actually, "simple backcutting" doesn't solve the problem with this particular molding. If you consider how an adjoining piece comes in at 90* to the face, the problem is that there will inevitably be a space on the other side of the lip at the top.


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## mwhafner (Jan 16, 2009)

Streamwinner said:


> Voodoo? Really?
> 
> Actually, "simple backcutting" doesn't solve the problem with this particular molding. If you consider how an adjoining piece comes in at 90* to the face, the problem is that there will inevitably be a space on the other side of the lip at the top.


Streamwinner,

Can you post a picture of an attempted coping of this molding? It might help demonstrate the issue to other members.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Can you imagine that you could actually get about four inches of the piece you are coping shaved down to only the width of the paint/finish on the front? Now, would not that coped edge fit snuggly against the previously intstalled piece? Of course it would.

This is what you esentially accomplish by backsawing at what ever angle is necessary at the various points you are reducing. No, it will not all be a one-direction backcut. You may end up cutting one area back toward the far end of the piece, while backcutting another area toward the top or bottom, etc.


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

mwhafner said:


> Streamwinner,
> 
> Can you post a picture of an attempted coping of this molding? It might help demonstrate the issue to other members.



Thanks. I don't have a photo because this was awhile ago. But hopefully this pic will help others understand.


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## mwhafner (Jan 16, 2009)

Streamwinner said:


> Thanks. I don't have a photo because this was awhile ago. But hopefully this pic will help others understand.


Great visualization

If you look at the blue arrow on Streamwinner's last post, you should be able to see why this molding cannot be coped.


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## plyboy (Aug 15, 2009)

*I wouldn't bother coping this crown*

I would simply take the angle of the walls with my Starrett angle finder, and cut an accurate mitre joint. If possible, then I would glue and nail the joint from the back then get help to raise it and nail it. 

You would have to cut the mitre joint first anyway so as to establish a cope line. Common sense would then tell me that unless I want to knock down the wall, install the coped crown from the rear, then re-build the wall, I would opt for the mitre joint, which would be quicker.

Nothing wrong with mitre joints, especially if they are glued and nailed from the back. Much stronger joint than a coped joint. 

A coped joint is not a structural joint, it's just for looks. And to hide expansion and contraction, but a glued and nailed inside mitre will get you the check on Friday just as well, especially if it is a perfect fit.:yes:

Some things are just plain contrary to common beliefs. Don't fight it.

If the river can not go over the rock, it will go around it, but it must keep flowing. You are the river, That f**ked up crown is the rock. It's only a job. Get it done. Quick as possible. Don't have a cow.

The mitred joint is still a highly respected and noble piece of joinery, if done correctly. (Anal retentives may biscuit the M.F.).

Now GET BACK TO WORK!:laughing:


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## plyboy (Aug 15, 2009)

*I wouldn't bother coping this crown*

I would simply take the angle of the walls with my Starrett angle finder, and cut an accurate mitre joint. If possible, then I would glue and nail the joint from the back then get help to raise it and nail it. 

You would have to cut the mitre joint first anyway so as to establish a cope line. Common sense would then tell me that unless I want to knock down the wall, install the coped crown from the rear, then re-build the wall, I would opt for the mitre joint, which would be quicker.

Nothing wrong with mitre joints, especially if they are glued and nailed from the back. Much stronger joint than a coped joint. 

A coped joint is not a structural joint, it's just for looks. And to hide expansion and contraction, but a glued and nailed inside mitre will get you the check on Friday just as well, especially if it is a perfect fit.:yes:

Some things are just plain contrary to common beliefs. Don't fight it.

If the river can not go over the rock, it will go around it, but it must keep flowing. You are the river, That f**ked up crown is the rock. It's only a job. Get it done. Quick as possible. Don't have a cow.

The mitred joint is still a highly respected and noble piece of joinery, if done correctly. (Anal retentives may biscuit the M.F.).

Now GET BACK TO WORK!:laughing:


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## Streamwinner (Nov 25, 2008)

plyboy said:


> I would simply take the angle of the walls with my Starrett angle finder, and cut an accurate mitre joint. If possible, then I would glue and nail the joint from the back then get help to raise it and nail it.
> 
> You would have to cut the mitre joint first anyway so as to establish a cope line. Common sense would then tell me that unless I want to knock down the wall, install the coped crown from the rear, then re-build the wall, I would opt for the mitre joint, which would be quicker.
> 
> ...


I agree. I ended up mitering all corners, but I didn't think of nailing it from the back before putting it up; I just glued them. 

I initially wanted to cope them because they are solid oak, and I was worried about expansion and contraction. That's when I wasted practically an entire day. :wallbash:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

plyboy said:


> I would simply take the angle of the walls with my Starrett angle finder, and cut an accurate mitre joint. If possible, then I would glue and nail the joint from the back then get help to raise it and nail it.
> 
> You would have to cut the mitre joint first anyway so as to establish a cope line. Common sense would then tell me that unless I want to knock down the wall, install the coped crown from the rear, then re-build the wall, I would opt for the mitre joint, which would be quicker.
> 
> ...


Lets say you have a room 12' x12', nice little square room.

Are you saying you would do this room with a scarf joint on each wall so you can back nail each corner?

If that was the case I would not be pleased with the results. IMO that room should have no scarf joints at all.

That crazy profile is not cope friendly for sure but back nailing would take a back seat to full length runs.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Had some insurance damage work done at our house awhile back. The trim guy showed up with 8' sticks of base. "Because it fit in his van." I sent him packing.


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## plyboy (Aug 15, 2009)

*Who said anything about scarf joints?*

The backnailing is only done wherever possible. Like runs longer than 12 or 16 ft, (do both corners first, then fill in the middle). Or for short runs that go to an outside corner, like offsets. If any joint needs to be completed aloft, I prefer it to be an outside corner rather than an inside one. On one piece runs with a moulding that can not be coped, simply cut it a smidge longer and spring it in. It will look great forever.

All offsets, and short jogs should be pre-assembled completely before going up, both inside and outside corners.

If I am mitering, wherever possible, I will backnail all my inside joints. It avoids having to shim behind an inside mitre to make it right. Difficult to do with short wall to wall runs, but not impossible if there is a door or window to poke it through for a minute. This method is only for production crews of 2 because you need help raising the backnailed moulding if it extends out in two or even three directions. It looks kind of silly when three guys are lifting three pieces of crown moulding, but it only takes a few seconds and it turns into quite a dance production when doing "production" finish carpentry.

I think that coping was invented by a guy who was stuck working alone.


I was a carp sub at a hotel-condo conversion a few years back, and ran crown in 500 one and 2 bedroom units with one other carpenter and only one chopsaw. One floor of 25 units per week including hallway. It was quite a dance. But that's another post altogether.

I apologize for drifting this thread off it's original course. Let's get back to coping.

I recently did a series of double-end crown copes in a house where a customer decided after the wall cabs were hung and crowned, that he wanted continuous crown rather than it dying to the wall wherever the wall cabinets ended. Needless to say, he was impressed that I didn't disturb the existing crown and a little more educated as far as woodwork goes. "Coped joint " was a major part of his vocabulary for a few days following.:laughing:


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

I just finished putting up crown in my den re-model.
The room is approx. 19 x 19. I had not thought to back nail the corners and work the middle last.
That would have saved me alot of frustration trying to get the saw cut miters to mate.
Of course I was doing this by mself so I have only one corner that turned out decent. Thank God for putty and paint.


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## mencheman (Sep 24, 2009)

*Coping Crown Molding*

I have ***** # 185 Crown molding with an actual 3 1/4 projection and from ceiling to bottom 3 3/8
According to the molding book it should be 3 1/4 x 3 x 31/4

how ever when I turn it upside down and backwards to cut a 45 and expose the profile for the left side of an inside corner I cannot get a good cope. it is open by 1/8 on the top.
When it sits on the miter saw up and backwards , it measures 3 1/8 x 3 3/8. 
i took it to a friend who is a cabinet maker and he cut it as it would lie against the wall and ceiling only with the profile towards the fence of the saw- a very difficult way to hold the piece.

I cannot get to the bottom of this .
Can anyone help. I watched the videos and i know I can follow the profile of the crown very well and i have a severe back cut 
It seems to me the angle is keeping it open at the top


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