# Waterlox - Finishing the Finish



## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

I am currently finishing a wood slab counertop with Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. When it's all said and done, I will have 6 coats applied. I want to make the final finish as glass smooth as I can. We have been sanding between coats. I called the company to see what they recommend for finishing the finish and they wern't really a lot of help. 

Have any of you used this product and attempted to do the same? Any tips or advice on how to finish this finish would be appreciated. The specs say that the finish cures in 30 days or so. I will probabaly wait longer before I do anything. I was thinking about using abrasive pads. Would that be appropriate? Marron? Grey? White? Anything else I should consider?

Thanks


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

I have not used the product, if you scroll down bottom left, "simillar threads" may have some usefull info. :smile:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

mdntrdr said:


> I have not used the product, if you scroll down bottom left, "simillar threads" may have some usefull info. :smile:


Thank you Scott. None of them seem to directly address it. I have seen information on sanding between coats and even some data on sanding the next to last coat, but so far nothing directly relating to rubbing out or finishing the finish coat once cured.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> Thank you Scott. None of them seem to directly address it. I have seen information on sanding between coats and even some data on sanding the next to last coat, but so far nothing directly relating to rubbing out or finishing the finish coat once cured.


You can sand in between coats with 320x. If you want the last coat like glass, if you've got a sufficient build (enough coats), when cured, you can wet sand with water and wet-or-dry sandpaper up to 1500-1800x and then rub out with rubbing compound. 

You can use automotive types which are available from coarse (usually in the reds) to smooth (in the whites). Using a power buffer may create too much heat and cause distortion, unless you have some experience with one.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> You can sand in between coats with 320x. If you want the last coat like glass, if you've got a sufficient build (enough coats), when cured, you can wet sand with water and wet-or-dry sandpaper up to 1500-1800x and then rub out with rubbing compound.
> 
> You can use automotive types which are available from coarse (usually in the reds) to smooth (in the whites). Using a power buffer may create too much heat and cause distortion, unless you have some experience with one.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir. I will be using the 320 grit no load SC paper inbetween the next few coats. I will probabaly end up with about 6 or 7 coats. I think I would probably opt for the manual finishing option raher than a buffer. not experienced at all with that. If I go with the wet sand and rubbing option, I can still re-coat if and when needed, correct?

btw...i am using just the sealer/finish which produces a final semi gloss finish


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> If I go with the wet sand and rubbing option, I can still re-coat if and when needed, correct?


Yes you can if you scuff sand first.



Tom5151 said:


> btw...i am using just the sealer/finish which produces a final semi gloss finish


That finish technique (wet sanding/compound) can be done with any film finish with sufficient build, and has cured.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Yes you can if you scuff sand first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. Is there by any chance a book or good reference material that might walk me through the steps for using the wet sand and rubbing compund technique? I have not done either yet really want to make sure I get this right. I will have 8 coats of material on when I am done. It looks like glass right now after 6 but I figured a couple more won't hurt if I am going to be using the technique to finish it.

I have some pictures if it would be helpful to see what I have currently in terms of build.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> Thank you. Is there by any chance a book or good reference material that might walk me through the steps for using the wet sand and rubbing compund technique? I have not done either yet really want to make sure I get this right. I will have 8 coats of material on when I am done. It looks like glass right now after 6 but I figured a couple more won't hurt if I am going to be using the technique to finish it.
> 
> I have some pictures if it would be helpful to see what I have currently in terms of build.


Could I potentially use felt pads, pumice and rottenstone in place of the rubbing compunds? If I did this would i still need to wet sand?

Would these work?

Amazon.com: BEHLEN Deluxing Compound: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Pumice Stone, Fine (4F), 1 lb.: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Pumice Stone, Coarse (2F), 1 lb.: Home Improvement


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> Could I potentially use felt pads, pumice and rottenstone in place of the rubbing compunds? If I did this would i still need to wet sand?
> 
> Would these work?
> 
> ...


Wet sanding gets you a better finish faster. Use a block with the sandpaper and water. By the time you get to 1500x or 1800x, it takes very little compound, to bring up a crystal clear finish. Using the block in wet sanding keeps everything flat.

Using just pumice and then rottenstone alone is not as effective, IMO.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Wet sanding gets you a better finish faster. Use a block with the sandpaper and water. By the time you get to 1500x or 1800x, it takes very little compound, to bring up a crystal clear finish. Using the block in wet sanding keeps everything flat.
> 
> Using just pumice and then rottenstone alone is not as effective, IMO.
> 
> ...


Okay...thank you very much.....

I am sorry for the million questions but I want to make sure I get it right...

For wet sanding what progression of grits? 400...600...1000 ....1200....1500....1800?........is that about right? Can i use water or do i need some type of lubing oil? If just water do you soak the paper or do you just spray the surface of the peice (in my case countertop with corner miters)? I assume I should sand with the grain in one direction?

Once done sanding is rottenstone acceptable? If not, do you have a preferred fine grit automotive rubbing compound you use?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> Okay...thank you very much.....
> 
> I am sorry for the million questions but I want to make sure I get it right...
> 
> ...


Use water. Any automotive store carries compounds in a grit order. The better auto paint and body stores carry numbered compounds from coarse to fine. I just use a white compound...its about as smooth as mayonnaise. Always rub with the grain. When you get to near polished, keep turning the rag, and when the moisture starts to dry you'll see the brilliance shine...something like a piano finish. It will look like this:
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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Use water. Any automotive store carries compounds in a grit order. The better auto paint and body stores carry numbered compounds from coarse to fine. I just use a white compound...its about as smooth as mayonnaise. Always rub with the grain. When you get to near polished, keep turning the rag, and when the moisture starts to dry you'll see the brilliance shine...something like a piano finish. It will look like this:
> .
> 
> 
> ...


 Dang...if it looks like that i will be pleased as heck...I think the thing that scares me the most is the wet sanding part. I would hate to mess that up have to start all over again...never done it.....I'll need to study up on that.....:thumbsup:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Use water. Any automotive store carries compounds in a grit order. The better auto paint and body stores carry numbered compounds from coarse to fine. I just use a white compound...its about as smooth as mayonnaise. Always rub with the grain. When you get to near polished, keep turning the rag, and when the moisture starts to dry you'll see the brilliance shine...something like a piano finish. It will look like this:
> .
> 
> 
> ...


would something like these two products work?

Amazon.com: 3M Perfect-It Rubbing Compound, 16 oz.: Automotive


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> would something like these two products work?
> 
> Amazon.com: 3M Perfect-It Rubbing Compound, 16 oz.: Automotive
> 
> Amazon.com: 3M Perfect-It Swirlmark Remover 39009, 16 oz: Automotive


I don't know. I'm not familiar with them. The rubbing out comes after all the wet sanding. Just for starters, you could try this polishing compound. For a final rub, you could try this. Both of those items are sold in most automotive sections of department stores and auto parts stores. I've used these and they work very well. You should do a small sample and try out something like them. The 3M swirl remover may work as well...I just haven't used it. 

If you go to a dedicated auto paint and body retail store, they have many grades from coarse compounds to super fine. If you tell them you are rubbing out a wet sanded finish, like a lacquer finish, they can suggest grades from the brands they carry.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I don't know. I'm not familiar with them. The rubbing out comes after all the wet sanding. Just for starters, you could try this polishing compound. For a final rub, you could try this. Both of those items are sold in most automotive sections of department stores and auto parts stores. I've used these and they work very well. You should do a small sample and try out something like them. The 3M swirl remover may work as well...I just haven't used it.
> 
> If you go to a dedicated auto paint and body retail store, they have many grades from coarse compounds to super fine. If you tell them you are rubbing out a wet sanded finish, like a lacquer finish, they can suggest grades from the brands they carry.
> 
> ...


Got it.......I finally figured out the proper terminology to google and now i am getting tons of results....I now know what to get.....

One last question on this. I am going to be doing this by hand. How do you prefer to apply the rubbing compound and how to you prefer buffing it out? Rub it on in straight lines? swirls? cotton cloth to apply and buff off?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> One last question on this. I am going to be doing this by hand. How do you prefer to apply the rubbing compound and how to you prefer buffing it out? Rub it on in straight lines? swirls? cotton cloth to apply and buff off?


Exactly. Doing it by hand will be difficult to maintain straight lines with the grain. So, you'll have a somewhat elongated oval of a movement. 











 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Exactly. Doing it by hand will be difficult to maintain straight lines with the grain. So, you'll have a somewhat elongated oval of a movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't thank you enough for your help. I am sure i gave you a headache today....lol........send me your bill.....seriously...thank you very much.....:thumbsup:


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## wildwood (Jan 25, 2011)

Micro Mesh
http://www.bereahardwoods.com/pen-kit/sets/Micro_mesh.html

I recommend you try wet sanding with this stuff. Also, add little dishwashing soap to water. Big advantage to this stuff, you can use it over and over again. Essentially, you are polishing the finish.

Can Google sandpaper/micromesh comparison chart 

I used auto wet/dry paper and rubbing compounds. Mineral oil and pumice will give a softer look better get pumice out of and joints and corners.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*First Question of the Day*

Hey C-man. First question of the day. I think this should be about it. I promise to send you a case of asprin for the headaches i am causing....lol

I was planning to wait 30 days after I apply my last coat before wet sanding and rubbing out the finish to ensure a proper cure. But in reality do I need to wait that long? I have read everything I can find on this stuff and some guys swear by waiting two weeks, other say three weeks. If I give it two or three weeks will I be okay? I don't want to rush it so if I need to wait longer I will. 

BTW....the temp at the cabin will be at 70 degrees while drying after the last coat. Humidty is anywhere from 30 to 40%


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> BTW....the temp at the cabin will be at 70 degrees while drying after the last coat. Humidty is anywhere from 30 to 40%


The temp and RH is OK. What's important is that each application gets to dry completely. Every application on top of one inhibits that previous application from completely drying. Just thought I'd tell ya that.

Actually the longer you can wait the better. Here is the dry/cure data from their site:



The first step is the evaporation of the solvent "carrier" system. The evaporation of solvent usually occurs in the first 2 - 4 hours with proper cross-ventilation techniques.
The second step is the curing of the solids system, which is comprised of the oil and resin. The solids system completes 95% - 98% of its cure cycle in 7 – 14 days with proper ventilation; full cure, film hardness and chemical resistance properties are achieved in 30 - 90 days with continued adequate ventilation.
Since I don't use oil base film finishes any more, my take on the dry versus cure time is what's important. If the intermediary coats were not given proper dry/cure times, your final coat could take longer. If the sandpaper "catches" it ain't dry, no less cured. Try to be careful with sanding through a layer, as it may expose a feathered edge. 

Some unrelated rambling: If you plan on applying all these coats and then rubbing it out for a gloss, the poured epoxy would look similar. The difference being there would be a "depth" to the gloss with the epoxy due to how thick it gets applied. But, standing back and looking at it, it looks as shiny as a rubbed out film finish.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> The temp and RH is OK. What's important is that each application gets to dry completely. Every application on top of one inhibits that previous application from completely drying. Just thought I'd tell ya that.
> 
> Actually the longer you can wait the better. Here is the dry/cure data from their site:
> 
> ...


Thank you very much....

We waited about 24 hours, maybe a bit longer, between coats. Sanded between the last 3 coats with 320 grit SC no-load paper. It didn't seem that the sandpaper was ctaching at all. It glided pretty smoothly. I think my main problem is going to be adequate ventalation. While we are actually there we can keep windows open and air flowing well. Howevere when we leave, everything gets closed up. The temp and humidity remain constant but windows and doors closed. I think that is probabaly what is going to keep me waiting the full 30 days.

I think the main thing with the Waterlox is that it gives us flexibility. Believe it or not, the sealer/finish that I am applying is a medium gloss. They actually have a full gloss finish that will make it even glossier if someone desired that. They also have a satin finish topcoat that can be applied at a later date if we decide we want a lower sheen. And it seemed to us that it would be easier to maintain/repair, etc. 

I have 6 coats on right now and I am starting to wonder whether I really need to two more coats of build in order to do the final sanding and rubbing I want to do. I'll see how it looks this weekend I guess and make that decision. I just want to make sure I have enough coats of build before I start finishing the finish. 

I would probably be a lot less stressed about it if this wasn't the first time I was finishing a finish and on such a main focal point of the overall look of the cabin....LOL......:blink:......i would so hate to screw this up........


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*What is the goal*

Hey C-man....

So what exactly is the goal of the wet sanding when I go to finsh this counter? What I mean by that is how do I tell when I am done with a certain grit and should move on to the next grit? What I am looking for that tells me its time to move up?

Thanks


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> Hey C-man....
> 
> So what exactly is the goal of the wet sanding when I go to finsh this counter? What I mean by that is how do I tell when I am done with a certain grit and should move on to the next grit? What I am looking for that tells me its time to move up?
> 
> Thanks


When the surface has a consistent look and feel from being abraded. The next smoother grit will produce a finer surface. Sanding is just a form of scratching. So, IOW, your scratching will appear and feel finer and finer. As you start with a finer grit, it will change the scratch pattern of the last grit.

I don't know if that explains it.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> When the surface has a consistent look and feel from being abraded. The next smoother grit will produce a finer surface. Sanding is just a form of scratching. So, IOW, your scratching will appear and feel finer and finer. As you start with a finer grit, it will change the scratch pattern of the last grit.
> 
> I don't know if that explains it.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think it does. So it's really more of a "feel" thing than a "visual" thing?


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*The Plan*

So....

here finally is my schedule for finishing the countertop finish.


Allow to cure for 3 to 4 weeks after final coat applied
Dry sand lightly with 320 grit SC no load to remove dust nibs, etc.
Wet sand through the following grits: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 1800, 2000, 2500
Wet sand with Abralon Pad through the following grits: 3000, 4000
3M Fine Cut Rubbing Compound
3M Swirl Remover
Here is hoping.......:blink:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Experimented with the above sanding/rubbing schedule this weekend on a sample peice of wood I had used to test the Waterlox material. It had been curing about 3 or 4 weeks. It is actually hard to describe the results I got. I have never seen anything so glass smooth and perfect. There is absolutely zero surface tension. It's like running your fingers across something that has a fine coat of oil on it. You almost can't tell you are touching anything. I've never seen or felt anything quite like it. I hope it works that well on the actul counters.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I'm glad its working out for you. I'm curious how it finally turns out and would love to see and feel it first hand but the distance is a bit much. I may want to offer this finish to future customers. I'm glad your happy with the results so far. 

Did you add any more coats this weekend?


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Big Dave said:


> I'm glad its working out for you. I'm curious how it finally turns out and would love to see and feel it first hand but the distance is a bit much. I may want to offer this finish to future customers. I'm glad your happy with the results so far.
> 
> Did you add any more coats this weekend?


Hey Dave,

Yes we added two more coats this weekend for a total of 8. I spoke to someone who uses this all the time and he indicated that it might be a good idea to add a little more build if I intend to sand/rub out the finish. So I am gong back up next weeknd to add two more coats with no sanding in between. That should give me proper build for rubbing and sanding.......I am now thinking that I might use MIcro Mesh to do my rubbing. ......I plan to do some testing to see for sure.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*Terrible*

Well I attempted to sand/rub out the Waterlox finish on the wood slab countertop this past weekend. I waited an extra week to allow for 3 full weeks of curing. Let's just say the results were terrible. I am about sick to my stomach as the countertop is the main focal point of the whole cabin. 

Since this was such a large surface I was doing I knew that hand sanding with wet/dry sandpaper was going to take a long time. I decided after watching a Charles Neil video to use Micro Mesh pads and an orbital sander. I wet sanded through all of the grits and then used a rubbing compound followed by a swirl remover. IMO opinion the results are awful. The finish is very "cloudy/foggy" and splotchy or blotchy. In my humble opinion the Micro Mesh pads are useless for this big of a job. They dulled and clogged right away and it was like sanding with rubber. I took some pictures to show the results but it's very hard to see in the pictures.

I am not exactly sure what to do at this point. I have a couple of options I think:


Do everything over but this time use the wet/dry sandpaper and just take the time to wet sand by hand. Follow that with rubbing compound and polish.
Put a cover up coat of Waterlox over what I have already done and just call it a day. My only concern here is whether or not I can put a coat over the rubbing compound. Will I need to scuff it up a bit for adhesion? This option won't give me the exact glass smooth finish I wanted but it may just have to do. If I do this, what is the best way to remove dust nibs etc and get a decent finish?
I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback or suggestions. If you need more information to provide an answer just let me know.

Any help is most appreciated.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Don't just put another coat over a finish that you're not happy with...it won't work. You'll have to sand *some* of the finish off and then re-apply a coat or two. Then go ahead and wet sand or do what ever else you're going to do. Good luck.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

sawdustfactory said:


> Don't just put another coat over a finish that you're not happy with...it won't work. You'll have to sand *some* of the finish off and then re-apply a coat or two. Then go ahead and wet sand or do what ever else you're going to do. Good luck.


 
Thank you.

My plan right now was to scuff it up with 320 grit and then wash it really good...let it dry and apply a couple more coats. But I am nnot sure if that is advisable or would even work. I tried asking the folks at Waterlox and they are not helpful at all when it comes to something like this.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback or suggestions. If you need more information to provide an answer just let me know.
> 
> Any help is most appreciated.


Tom...what the heck happened? I thought we had it all worked out. I didn't expect you would use a pad on a ROS, or use micro mesh. I can't see what you've done, but if you think back to the start, and pick up from one of the stages that did turn out OK, and then follow the finishing we discussed, you shouldn't have a problem.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Tom...what the heck happened? I thought we had it all worked out. I didn't expect you would use a pad on a ROS, or use micro mesh. I can't see what you've done, but if you think back to the start, and pick up from one of the stages that did turn out OK, and then follow the finishing we discussed, you shouldn't have a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey C-man. Thank you. Yeah I tried to build a better mouse trap I guess. I saw the video on the micro mesh and thought it would make the job easier than all of that hand sanding. Boy was I wrong. 

At this point I honestly don't know what stage to go back to. It really never looked good to me during the entire process with the micro mesh. It looked better when it was just the raw cured Waterlox before I started any rubbing/sanding. That's kind of why I am thinking about just scuffing up the finish I got with the rubbing compound and putting a coat or two over it and calling it done. Can I do that? My only problem is going to be getting out dust nibs and getting it smooth. At this point I think I would sacrifice glass smooth for just looking good.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I never suggested micro mesh. If your existing finish is dry, and I mean dry (where dry 320x sandpaper doesn't stick or catch). You could just lightly sand with 320x (dry) to get rid of the nibs. Apply your topcoats, but each successive topcoat has to dry.

You might try thinning about 20% with naptha and wipe on thin coats with a smoothly folded lint free cloth ("T" shirt type). Allow to dry. If you wanted a gloss, use it on the last coat or two. The final application may *not* need wet sanding and "rubbing out". 












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I never suggested micro mesh. If your existing finish is dry, and I mean dry (where dry 320x sandpaper doesn't stick or catch). You could just lightly sand with 320x (dry) to get rid of the nibs. Apply your topcoats, but each successive topcoat has to dry.
> 
> You might try thinning about 20% with naptha and wipe on thin coats with a smoothly folded lint free cloth ("T" shirt type). Allow to dry. If you wanted a gloss, use it on the last coat or two. The final application may *not* need wet sanding and "rubbing out".
> 
> ...


Yeah I know you didn't suggest micro mesh. I had the brainiac idea that it might save me some time. It obviously did not. I would not suggest it on something like this nor will I ever use it again.

Okay so here is what I will do. Tell me if you think this will work from where I am right now.


As it stands right now I have used rubbing compound followed by polishing compound *after* I was done sanding the micro mesh. I am going back up this weekend. I intend to:

wash the counters thouroughly and allow to dry
scuff the surface with with 320 no load SC (dry)
wipe down and vaccum so the surface is dust free
apply one or two coats of Waterlox original sealer/finish allowing complete drying in between coats.
allow to cure for 3 to 4 weeks
At that point I just may leave it. The original sealer finish gives a nice 50% sheen. I may just leave it that way.

Anything problems you foresee with that approach?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> wash the counters thouroughly and allow to dry


This has me bothered. Don't "wash" with anything. What you use may contaminate the surface.



Tom5151 said:


> scuff the surface with with 320 no load SC (dry)
> wipe down and vaccum so the surface is dust free


Don't wipe with a common tack rag. It can leave a resinous film. You can drive dust into any pores. Blow it off in an area far away from where you're finishing. Make sure your air delivery (tank, airline, blower) is free from moisture and any grimy gooey green/gray slime (yeah...it gathers in the bottom of the tank).



Tom5151 said:


> apply one or two coats of Waterlox original sealer/finish allowing complete drying in between coats.
> 
> allow to cure for 3 to 4 weeks


You may experiment with thinning with naptha 20% and see if it lays out better.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> This has me bothered. Don't "wash" with anything. What you use may contaminate the surface.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you sir.......I may not be able to blow the dust off as they are attached in place in the kitchen and I am finishing them in place.. I'll just do my best to use a soft (non-tack) cloth and vacuum them best I can. I will try thinning with the naptha and then apply thinner coats. I may just leave it at that point and not even try to rub it out after it's cured. It's bound to look better than it does right now. I will try to post pictures tonight


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

Tom,

After watching Chas. Neil's videos on Rubbing out a Finish, it sounds like it was NOT fully cured when you started.

Three weeks is only 21 days... not 30...

As soon as you start sanding, you should get a white powdery result... if not, it's not cured yet.

He made a very distinct point of being sure it was CURED before starting...

You might do a YouTube search for "Rubbing Out a Finish" ... It's in two parts... Part 1 and Part 2..

Hope you get your problem solved...

You have a beautiful Kitchen and House / Cabin with those gorgeous counter tops!


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Tom,
> 
> After watching Chas. Neil's videos on Rubbing out a Finish, it sounds like it was NOT fully cured when you started.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much.......

It was cured. The folks at Waterlox agreed that 3 weeks would be sufficient. I spoke with a couple of other folks that use it all the time and they concurred with three weeks as well. The room was fully ventilated at at 70 degrees for 3 entire three weeks. 

My initial sandings with 400 grit no load SC dry sandpaper resulted in the white powdery dust you mentioned. After that I started wet sanding and no dust is produced, only a slurry mixture. 

In the video I watched, Neil started sanding a day or two after he applied his finish. He did clearly state that in the video and said NOT to do that. I got that part. He was merely rushing the process for the purpose of doing the video demo. 

My experience with the micro mesh was not good at all. It clogged almost immediately and the sanding surface became "rubbery". I am not necessarily blaming the micro mesh for the poor results but IMO opinion it was certainly a contributor.

I am hopeful that I will get things corrected. Either that or I will just paint the the whole thing white and be done with it......lol....just kidding


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*Possible Next Steps*

Okay so having had another day to think about this I am considering two things:


The first option is probably the easy way out. I will simply scuff the finish I have now, vacuum it to get any dust off and then apply another coat or two of Waterlox and just leave it. I won't rub or sand out the finish. I'll just let it cure and deal with it. It won't be the glass smooth surface I really wanted but it will look a lot better than it does now. The dust nibs that do remain will likely wear off over time with normal use of the counter anyway.
The second option would be to go back and do my original sanding/buffing schedule starting from the finish I have right now. I'll start over with 400 grit SC (wet) and go all the way through 2400. Then I will rub and ploish with compound. I will try a very small section first just to see if this will work before I do the entire counter. If it works I will keep going, if not, I am back up to option number 1.
What do you guys think?

Thanks.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I would try option 2 first.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Big Dave said:


> I would try option 2 first.


 
Yeah something is telling me that's the right way to go Dave. I just don't want to mess it up further, but I think that's the way to go. That's what I should have done in the first place and I likely would not have this problem......but noooooooooooooooooooooo....i had to go and try to make it easier......bad bad choice.......lol


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

When you said that the finish became rubbery, that tells me that there was probably enough heat generated to soften the finish... BAD...

Chas Neil: You cannot polish rubber.

Sounds like the outside was cured but the inside coats were not.

I think I'd let it sit another month the way it is... to give it chance to cure all the way through... then, I'd apply 2-3 more coats to replenish what you've sanded off... let that stand for another month... THEN start the sanding again.

Patience test for sure!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> Okay so having had another day to think about this I am considering two things:
> 
> 
> The first option is probably the easy way out. I will simply scuff the finish I have now, vacuum it to get any dust off and then apply another coat or two of Waterlox and just leave it. I won't rub or sand out the finish. I'll just let it cure and deal with it. It won't be the glass smooth surface I really wanted but it will look a lot better than it does now. The dust nibs that do remain will likely wear off over time with normal use of the counter anyway.
> ...



I'm inclined to use option #1 and I'll repeat one of my previous suggestions:


cabinetman said:


> I never suggested micro mesh. If your existing finish is dry, and I mean dry (where dry 320x sandpaper doesn't stick or catch). You could just lightly sand with 320x (dry) to get rid of the nibs. Apply your topcoats, but each successive topcoat has to dry.
> 
> You might try thinning about 20% with naptha and wipe on thin coats with a smoothly folded lint free cloth ("T" shirt type). Allow to dry. If you wanted a gloss, use it on the last coat or two. The final application may *not* need wet sanding and "rubbing out".


A reason for this suggestion is that it does not involve steps that could cause contamination. Doing wet sanding provides the possibility of leaving trace granulated media. There are many stages of upgrading to smoother grits. There will be a point where you have to introduce some polishing compounds, which in doing that also avails the surface to retain some particulates that could cause some contamination.

For the inexperienced finisher, reducing the steps reduces the possibility of error. So, what this means is that you're so close now to an acceptable finish, it may only take a minimum of finishing to get what you want. Now, if the finish is not acceptable, all you would need to do at that point is to wet sand starting with 800x, then 1200x, and then 1500x. Then hand rub with a polishing compound (and water) until the finish is bright. *But, you may not need to do any of that*.

*FYI*...Once rubbing compound is used do not apply a coating to that rubbed out finish. It would have to be re-sanded to be recoated.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> When you said that the finish became rubbery, that tells me that there was probably enough heat generated to soften the finish... BAD...
> 
> Chas Neil: You cannot polish rubber.
> 
> ...


Thank you Joe. I appreciate your reply. I may have miscommunicated. It wasn't the finish that became rubbery, it was the micro mesh pad sanding surface itself. Rubbery might not be the right word. But let's say it became smooth right away and didn't seem to have any abraisiveness left to it at all. By the time I went through all the pad grits they were all the same smoothness. It was like i was resanding with the same pad over and over and I think that could be part of the problem. While i was expecting to get finer and finer scratches from the finer abrasive pads, I wasn't noticing much of a discernable difference in sheen level as I progressed.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I'm inclined to use option #1 and I'll repeat one of my previous suggestions:
> 
> 
> A reason for this suggestion is that it does not involve steps that could cause contamination. Doing wet sanding provides the possibility of leaving trace granulated media. There are many stages of upgrading to smoother grits. There will be a point where you have to introduce some polishing compounds, which in doing that also avails the surface to retain some particulates that could cause some contamination.
> ...


makes perfect sense.......and I think the thing that keeps sticking in my craw about this is that I know i don't like the current finish....not sure if you saw the pics i posetd in the other thread but I would consider it unacceptable.........close but not what I had hoped for.........

So what I think i will do is try what you have described below on a very small part of the counter.....800...1200...1500 and then polish......on a fairly small area I should be able to tell rather quuckly if it is going to improve things....if it doesn't then I will resand everything, apply 2 or 3 more coats with a smooth cotton cloth rather than brushing to replensih what i have sanded off already and just wait another month at least before I touch anything......at that point I can decide whether i want to try to sand/'rub it out again or just leave it in it's raw cured state.......by applying with a smooth cotton cloth, I may not need to do anything at all....

Thanks for your help on this.....


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

OK... LOL

Hope you get it fixed.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

*Oh Well*

It came out okay I guess.I tested a small area to see if I could save the finish. It came out 100% better (nice and clear) but still wasn't perfect. So I decided to resand everything, and recoat and leave it. The knee wall section of counter is done. Not touching it any further. The problem came near the sink. We had already installed the sink using, (you guessed it) silicone caulk. So I have about a quarter of an inch strip next to edge of the sink that has caulk residue that won't accept finish material. I am going to let it just sit for the entire summer and cure and then see if I can somehow "feather sand" those little strips to get the residue off and try to then feather in some finish. If that doesn't look good then I am just going to sand everything off to the layers prior to the caulk (there were about about 8 or so layers of build applied before the caulk) and do that whole section of countertop over. Fun....


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tom5151 said:


> It came out okay I guess.I tested a small area to see if I could save the finish. It came out 100% better (nice and clear) but still wasn't perfect. So I decided to resand everything, and recoat and leave it. The knee wall section of counter is done. Not touching it any further. The problem came near the sink. We had already installed the sink using, (you guessed it) silicone caulk. So I have about a quarter of an inch strip next to edge of the sink that has caulk residue that won't accept finish material. I am going to let it just sit for the entire summer and cure and then see if I can somehow "feather sand" those little strips to get the residue off and try to then feather in some finish. If that doesn't look good then I am just going to sand everything off to the layers prior to the caulk (there were about about 8 or so layers of build applied before the caulk) and do that whole section of countertop over. Fun....


The silicone caulk will never get hard, and you won't be able to sand it. The only way to trim it off is with a single edge razor blade. You could cut it vertically close to the sink rim, and then try to rub off with your finger whatever is stuck to the top. I think if you tried to scrape it off with the blade you'll scratch the finish.












 







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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> The silicone caulk will never get hard, and you won't be able to sand it. The only way to trim it off is with a single edge razor blade. You could cut it vertically close to the sink rim, and then try to rub off with your finger whatever is stuck to the top. I think if you tried to scrape it off with the blade you'll scratch the finish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got it.....yeah you can't even really see it......it must be a residue left over......tried to wipe it clean when we applied it but obviously you can;t get every bit of residue. I am just going to let it sit for a couple months and decide what i want to do.....I am kind of sick of it to be honest.....lol.........my gut feel is that I am going to completely resand that whole section of counter anyway so it won't matter if I scratch the finish ....perhaps during the resanding process i can try the blade to get off as much as possible......


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## NuthinFancy (Oct 15, 2016)

Curious how this all worked out for you. I've been trying to get info on rubbing out with compounds.
I'm going to be trying an DA orbital buffer rather than the heavy duty buffers. Even thinking of applying the waterlox with it. I tend to do more natural type stuff and like a soft, non plastic finish. When I was up in NE, I used to apply the waterlox , let it sit for 15-30 minutes and then wipe it off with a cloth-worked great. Now i'm in Florida with no ac and now all i get is a streaking mess cause its drying practically as I put it on.

Had I seen this post. I would have advised against going with any kind of gloss on a kitchen counter unless it was of just an eating bar. Maintenance is a pain.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

NuthinFancy said:


> Curious how this all worked out for you. I've been trying to get info on rubbing out with compounds.
> I'm going to be trying an DA orbital buffer rather than the heavy duty buffers. Even thinking of applying the waterlox with it. I tend to do more natural type stuff and like a soft, non plastic finish. When I was up in NE, I used to apply the waterlox , let it sit for 15-30 minutes and then wipe it off with a cloth-worked great. Now i'm in Florida with no ac and now all i get is a streaking mess cause its drying practically as I put it on.
> 
> Had I seen this post. I would have advised against going with any kind of gloss on a kitchen counter unless it was of just an eating bar. Maintenance is a pain.


Rubbing out a finish has a lot to do with the finish you are wanting. Unless you are wanting a high gloss it doesn't work very good to rub the finish out. Trying to rub one to satin or even semi-gloss there is the tendency of getting the finish streaked. 

To rub a finish to high gloss make sure the finish is thoroughly cured and wet sand it with 1500 grit or finer paper. Then lightly buff it with 0000 steel wool. Then use something like a 7" auto polisher with a lambswool bonnet with rubbing compound. This will put a shine on a finish like a sheet of glass. Depending on the finish and how long it has cured you can then bring the sheen back with some wax or a clearcoat safe polish.


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## NuthinFancy (Oct 15, 2016)

FWIW: I ended up using one coat of waterlox sealer/finish and then applied a coat of clear briwax with a DA orbital buffer. Bingo! got the nice soft satiny finish I was looking for.


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