# french polish? what and how pros and cons.



## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> Ok i've heard the term french polish tossed around on this site and others. if i may ask *looks at chemmy* what is "french polish" and how is it done, and what are its strengths and weaknesses. i searched this forum and google but most people talk about it with an almost spiritual reverence and not too much practical repeatable info.
> 
> this is info for a personal project a ways off so i have time to learn.
> 
> ...


Buy my book!!! LOL :laughing: well... at least when it's done lol. 

Actually "French' polishing is a misnomer the French don't call it that, lol. It is really called "friction polishing" with good reason, at the end after the bodying is completed, you use quite a bit of hand pressure on the pad/rubber/tampon/etc., to soften the shellac up somewhat to bring up the final glass shine it produces. Some call it stretching the lac, i prefer to call it burnishing. 

The technique is simple and uncomplicated though there are many cultural ways it is done across the planet, but mainly in Europe. The Germans have thier methods as do the English, Spanish, Scandanavians, Indians, Asians,etc.. 

The first mention i know of in trade publication is from the French dictionare' Technologique, which has the formula spelled out, since it was published in the mid 1700's i will take that as being sufficient as to its original use til i run across something different or earlier. 

My grandfather was full French my dad half and they are who taught me, though they personally did not use the formula that i speak of. having tried that i can see why.

sorry but i have to run out but will be back in an hour or so its 9 pm here ok?


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> lol yes and of course its ok. life comes first.
> 
> do you have ant prefered resources for a feller like me to read up on how to do it? how do you know when your done.


You know someone posted a video on here about shellac and where it came from and how manufactured into the finished product we use, on that iste he also as i found out had a video on how to french polish there were also many others, with his though i was interested only because when i purchased the video it was very close [outside of how we filled the grain] to what i had learned, i will find the site and post it ok? THEN!!!!!!! you can get back to me and we will discuss the changes that need to be made, lol

http://shop.shellacfinishes.biz/French-Polish-like-a-Pro-video-DVD.htm

Give it a shot, most of it is very useful, then i can guide you from there once the basics are down pretty good ok? It's hard to just write about it and have someone really understand, it needs to be seen and then practiced, Vijay does a good job on the basics except for the filling part.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> ok thank you. is the process of friction polishing a strong one? ie would it be appropriate for the back of a guitar where belts tend to rub? also how do you maintain a peice that has had this process done to it?


No it would not be good for that. its tough but not that tough, most coatings even polyester can be scratched with a buckle lol, but i do have a remedy for that.................. DONT WEAR A BUCKLE!!!:yes:


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

,,,,,,


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

OMG French polish is a pain. Depends on species but woods that take a high polish like ebony and cocobolo there is nothing better.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> so the friction polish would be good for a front door where in the ocasional toe of shoe is used to close the door but it would be bad for a dining room table?


LOL, again no, Think of Friction polishing and shellac as a good finish but more delicate than say polyurethane or even good hard alkyd finishes - it is very good with very good properties as you will see in the video, It can be used most anywhere, bathrooms, kitchens, furniture. DR table tops, but it is succeptable to a few things in general, heat [above 150] long durations of wetness, or alcohol. In other words it is high maintenance compared to many others. good points excellent gloss,adhesion, distinction of image/refractive index, ease of application, best coating for stopping bleeding color or resinous pine sap, and the easiest of any finishing coatings to repair.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Corbin3388 said:


> OMG French polish is a pain. Depends on species but woods that take a high polish like ebony and cocobolo there is nothing better.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


HMMM.............. beg to differ, no matter what wood your polishing be it poplar or any other, if the wood is prepared properly, it or i can make it look like glass. Think of the most open pored skankyest wood that exist, and i will make it look like a kings ransom. :yes:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> i was looking for that video i wasnt able to find it. i did find a link to "in the work shop" on you tube.
> is shellac the only finish that you can use to friction polish? and is it the same method of maintaining as a non-friction polished shellac finish?


I posted the link back a few just click it ok?

http://shop.shellacfinishes.biz/French-Polish-like-a-Pro-video-DVD.htm

any alcohol solveable resin can be used, back when, some were mastic, sandarac, gum anime, etc.., later on it was found that it was best just to use shellac once it became available in dewaxed form. but yes they are more maitanance than say lacquer if treated the same way as to daily use. It's not a majic bullet it is a high end finish used mostly on things that will not see daily "abuse" but can be easily fixed if it does.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> while i was waiting for the dvd i started googleing french polishing techniques. most of what ive seen and read makes friction "french" polishing look and sound like spit shinning boots.


Hmmm..... your right, not to much difference, cotton ball, water, wax, lots of elbow, ooops, finger grease, different materials but very similiar, plus easy to repair most of the time also.

High gloss wax polishing with reeds and dull scraper followed with fine linen preceeded friction polish, you may have just answered my question of where the idea came from to try the polishing method with shellac, thnx. I will give that much thought. :yes::thumbsup:

That just might end up in my book, i will have to look at Roubo's writing on hard wax polishing again.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

sorry.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Well, roubo doesn't say what cloth he used for sure, but most likely linen, or other smooth cloth of the period. but my idea is this, in the hard wax process little to no heat from friction could build up which might loosen the inlay, thus a grass applyer and blunt scraper to apply, burnish, and uniformly smooth out before final gloss polishing would or could proceed. Beeswax being a softer wax could not be heated to any degree, BUT-- if a cold wet rag was used [which there are no details stating such] to keep the wax cold during the glossing process, it would make perfect sense that even a higher gloss than i have gotten so far could be acheived. That is or could be why even condervators have not been able to produce the high gloss either. Hmmm.... very interesting i will have to try it as soon as i can. 

Beyond this, as to the friction polishing being similiar, again if he who first thought of it found that if a cold rag was used to burnish/polish the wax, what if he slowly fed cold water through wool or cotton which would keep a steady supply of coolness to the surface keeping it from even heating up less. thus - inner wool core+ outer linen wrap gives the basic pad elements used for later friction polishing. add the pumice filler, the lac and oil, and viiola!! the friction polish is born. ©



Copyright by (C.L.) SQP Feb. 22 2012.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> sorry.


For what? frankly im indebted to you, my sincere thanks. and a free copy of my book if this proves out, with mention of where the idea came from giveing credit to you ok?:yes::thumbsup:


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> im not sure i fully follow you but i think mabey this friction polish isn't friction related at all. i wont know for sure until i get started but it seams to be that during the burnishing step. where the thin cut shellac is used that its the vapor from the denatured alkie that softens up the shellac and allows it to self level. just like when you use laquer thinner to make seam fill patches blend into the surface.


AHH.. your incorrect my dear watson, even though several drops of alcohol are added to the core of the pad when first vaping off the finish, the core and outer cloth run dry very soon, then there is nothing but a trace of oil and a little pumice that continue to smooth the shellac til you are satisfied with the shine. this requires alot of pressure on the polishers part both hands and lots of time. the begining alcohol is mainly used to pick up the last traces of oil from the surface. leaving only the pad and pumice to continue the polishing. Then there are a few more steps i personally take to bring up the liquid glass look afterwords. That, you wont find on the video lol.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> ahh ok sorry.
> 
> the pumice is used to fill in the wood because it dries clear right?


well... a lot of people do use it to fill the wood grain, at the begining of the process [see video] and i also do at times only much differently, also i prefer mountain crystals instead, much more clear. But at the end stage no it is not used to fill, is is strictly acting as a polishing/smoothing agent that was left over in the beginning and left over on the pad at the end, that is why you don't use a new fresh pad at the end stage but the same one used for bodying the shellac. ok?

At the beginnig, the pumice serves two purposes, 1 it fills the pores, two in doing so it also abrades microscopic filiments of the wood itself off and mixes with the alcohol and pumice to give color to the pores, if done properly and long enough. Unfortunately this method is faulty in the sense that after the pumice dries out the pores take on a grey or whitish cast, spoiling the the look. that is not the way my family or i did it, i will explain once you know more about it and have some personal expierience with all the steps ok?


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

ok will do


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

chemmy said:


> also i prefer mountain crystals instead, much more clear.


Just as a note - from Kremer's 2009 catalog

Mountain Crystal Powder consists of crystalline white particles which are visible under the microscope.

Mountain Crystal, white crystalline powder, about 120 microns
Mountain Crystal extra fine, 0–63 microns 

BUT - Mountain Crystal items 11400 and 11401 name's have been changed - now it's called Rock Crystal (I guess they ran out of mountains :laughing

Rock Crystal, 0 - 63 µ

Rock Crystal, 80 - 150 µ

I bought the smaller stuff

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Speaking of Kremer and Shellac, what do you think about this Kremer recipe - for last coats?

*Paris Wood Varnish*
for varnishing fine wood ware, also suitable for last coat of polished surfaces, especially small objects

5 kg fine orange Shellac ( 60410 ) 
1,5 kg Larch Turpentine or Gum Elemi ( 62000 – 62050 ) 
25 kg Ethyl alcohol ( 70800 ) 
Use Lavender Oil to scent varnish, ( 73750 )
for transluscent varnish: bleached shellac

My experience of mixing 10% Canada Balsam Rosin (made by sun drying canada balsam untill it became a resin) with shellac for the last thin coats increases gloss, appears the colors are more brilliant. (Artists have used and continue using these oleoresins in their painting mediums for quite a while now for these purposes - increases gloss, brilliant colors, imparts depth)

Larch Turpentine (the real Venice Turpentine) should do the same, but in much larger amount as Kremer's recipe, should be very nice looking.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

FP is not a particularly tough finish. If you want tough go urethane. 
If you want artsyfartsy go with FP. 

Lots of Luthiers do FP on their acoustic guitars I never saw a strap constantly rubbing the back of a guitar. 

Acoustic musical instrument finishes are the subject of much debate. It's all about the effect of the resin on the tone and resonance of the wood. FP is often said to have been good enough for the great violin and luthiers of old and therefore it should be good enough today. However, that leaves unasked the many questions about technological advances in finishes since that halcyon and badly misunderstood golden era when the only options available were shellac or resinous varnishes. 

Which would any instrument maker use? oils, shellac, light varnish, or heavy gooey goo? Not much of a tough choice I should think. 

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=NEWSLINK_EN_C&RCN=31556&ACTION=D

I like this line:
"'We have found that Stradivari employed common and easily available components that were commonly used among craftsmen and artists in the 18th century,' "

What the hell else would he have used?


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

*to cliff*

thanks for the reply it was to the heart of the post.

i'm just trying to understand the different finishes for wood projects and the french friction polish technique information i was able to find on my own was vague. but mr. chemmy and yourself are helping clear the air.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Cliff said:


> FP is not a particularly tough finish. If you want tough go urethane.
> If you want artsyfartsy go with FP.
> 
> Lots of Luthiers do FP on their acoustic guitars I never saw a strap constantly rubbing the back of a guitar.
> ...


Had big discussions of lac vs. oil varnishes on Meastronet.com. Unfortunately they are set in thier ways and i can see why, lot of discussions about differing grounds and balsam varnishes, not my cup of tea, but very interesting. I came away with a better understanding of tone on bowed instruments so it was not a loss. 

Strad had a time machine, he came to South America and Met Carlo and he filled him in on what to use for his violins, so the honors should really go to Carlo. lol!! Just joking my friend. :laughing:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

CARLO: "Speaking of Kremer and Shellac, what do you think about this Kremer recipe - for last coats?

*Paris Wood Varnish*
for varnishing fine wood ware, also suitable for last coat of polished surfaces, especially small objects

5 kg fine orange Shellac ( 60410 )

CHEMMY: What is "fine" orange shellac?


1,5 kg Larch Turpentine or Gum Elemi ( 62000 – 62050 )

CHEMMY: Big difference between a turpene and a soft resin like elimi!!


25 kg Ethyl alcohol ( 70800 )

Chemmy: 55Gallons, what are you plannig on doing the queen mary??

Use Lavender Oil to scent varnish, ( 73750 )

Chemmy: Spike lavender oil only [plasticizer] 


for transluscent varnish: bleached shellac

Chemmy: Would not use either orange or massed bleached lac, refine your own kusmi botton lac only!!

Thats my input. 

My experience of mixing 10% Canada Balsam Rosin (made by sun drying canada balsam untill it became a resin) with shellac for the last thin coats increases gloss, appears the colors are more brilliant. (Artists have used and continue using these oleoresins in their painting mediums for quite a while now for these purposes - increases gloss, brilliant colors, imparts depth)

Larch Turpentine (the real Venice Turpentine) should do the same, but in much larger amount as Kremer's recipe, should be very nice looking. 

Chemmy: Most if not all turpenes on wood will give those affects, try them all and then decide which you prefer for your own work ok?

Sincerely, Chemmy


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

carpenter547 said:


> wait you can actually use oil in the finishes to give off smell? how long does it last? could lavander oil be used as the lube during the polishing?


LOL, :laughing:, with shellac and the other alcohol resins yes, [in very small amounts] just enough to temper the resins that have less elacticity. but the main reason is as a plasticizer as just mentioned. to give it the ablity to stretch and contract better thn without, no they are not "permenent" and depends on how much you would incorporate as to length of time they would stay aromatic. The interiors of many historical pieces in france have had gum benzoin added to the polish to keep the interiors smeliing like a cross between vanilla and cinnamon, but i don't reccomend it for face polishing at all, it darken over time and also absorbs moisture and swells.


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## user27606 (Feb 6, 2012)

oh ok thanks.:smile:


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

Not bad for a 300 year old finish


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> Not bad for a 300 year old finish


I'd like to see the proof mark on the inside if you 
Would. That's cool

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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

Cliff said:


> I like this line:
> "'We have found that Stradivari employed common and easily available components that were commonly used among craftsmen and artists in the 18th century,' "
> 
> What the hell else would he have used?


So that rules out the extra terrestrial oleoresins....drag..:cool2:



Corbin3388 said:


> I'd like to see the proof mark on the inside if you
> Would. That's cool


 you can see a little of a label in this pict....for closer evaluation please e-mail your address to the Ashmolean Museum of Art and Archaeology, Oxford, so they can ship you the Messiah...:laughing::laughing:...sorry for the lousy humor....


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

stradavari may have benefited from the Maunder Minimum. It produced very densely packed annular rings in the Italian alpine spruces he used.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

beautiful carving on the tail-piece.


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

That good sir is awesome

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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

chemmy said:


> also i prefer mountain crystals instead, much more clear. But at the end stage no it is not used to fill, is is strictly acting as a polishing/smoothing agent that was left over in the beginning and left over on the pad at the end, that is why you don't use a new fresh pad at the end stage but the same one used for bodying the shellac. ok?


Clear? It's being used as an abrasive are you not going to remove it? Or does some embed in the finish causing clarity to work in your favor then?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Cliff said:


> Clear? It's being used as an abrasive are you not going to remove it? Or does some embed in the finish causing clarity to work in your favor then?


French polish/friction polish can be done on any film finish. There's no secret to it. With a sufficient build of finish, once sanded out to a very fine grit, the sanding sequence is basically abrading, or scratching to a finer state. The polishing, is achieved with a lubricator of sorts, could be water, alcohol, or the media itself, as with shellac. The polishing at those final stages using a compound, finely abrades the finish, and the finish will build on the pad, and as the solvent evaporates, you have finish polishing finish.

Personally, I wouldn't go through all the handwork with a finish as soft as shellac. Here is an example of a high polish.
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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

This is a good tutorial on French polishing.
http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Cliff said:


> Clear? It's being used as an abrasive are you not going to remove it? Or does some embed in the finish causing clarity to work in your favor then?


There is little left after the bodying cliff, and at the final point the pad is virtually dry or will be very soon so its just acting as an abrasive that is where most leave off, i go a few steps futher.


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