# Solvent based lacquer vs water based



## Curmudgeon (Jan 3, 2021)

Newbie to the site...
I am a life long woodworking hobbiest. Recently retired and now more involved in doing some hobby furniture building for myself and my family. In the past, I have always sprayed solvent based pre cat lacquer (M.L.Campbell) and was very fond of its hardness, quick drying and it's slightly warm tone. With health concerns and lack of a spray booth, I have tried migrating to water-based finishes. Unfortunately they all look so "plastic like" almost to clear. Is there a water base lacquer or similar product out there that will give me the warmer tone I am looking for? Is it possible to use some trans tint dye added to a water-based lacquer to achieve this?

Any advice wood be greatly appreciated.
.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I think there are a couple of reasons that waterborne's look crappy. One is the "too clear" thing you mentioned, the other is the bluish cast that some have.

Crystalac Products seem to have solved this. Their sealer is amber to eliminate the "too clear" thing and their topcoats don't seem to have the bluish cast. You can also tint waterbornes with TransTint to amber them up. Some instrument builders are using Crystalac Brite-Tone which looks an awful lot like the traditional nitro lacquer. They make other lacquers as well.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 3, 2021)

Thanks for the reply...you obviously recognize exactly what I was trying to describe. Going to do a Google search for Crystalac products right now.


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## Jay_L (Oct 16, 2020)

Target Coatings Waterborne EM-8000 CV has a nice warm amber glow to it..

Below are before and after pics, the after being still wet..


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Curmudgeon said:


> Newbie to the site...
> I am a life long woodworking hobbiest. Recently retired and now more involved in doing some hobby furniture building for myself and my family. In the past, I have always sprayed solvent based pre cat lacquer (M.L.Campbell) and was very fond of its hardness, quick drying and it's slightly warm tone. With health concerns and lack of a spray booth, I have tried migrating to water-based finishes. Unfortunately they all look so "plastic like" almost to clear. Is there a water base lacquer or similar product out there that will give me the warmer tone I am looking for? Is it possible to use some trans tint dye added to a water-based lacquer to achieve this?
> 
> Any advice wood be greatly appreciated.
> .


I am a big Target Coatings fan. Their EM6000 production lacquer is good enough that it is a favorite of luthiers today. They make a myriad of products to fit almost any need. Their customer support is outstanding. Jeff Weiss, the president, is reachable and can always get you the answer you need. I have sprayed them through an air driven hvlp, and now use a hvlp turbine with excellent results.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

B Coll said:


> I am a big Target Coatings fan. Their EM6000 production lacquer is good enough that it is a favorite of luthiers today. They make a myriad of products to fit almost any need. Their customer support is outstanding. Jeff Weiss, the president, is reachable and can always get you the answer you need. I have sprayed them through an air driven hvlp, and now use a hvlp turbine with excellent results.


Which turbine sprayer are you using ? I'm debating a new compressor vs a turbine spray system.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think if you buy some water based lacquer you will throw what is left over away. A water based lacquer takes so many more coats and elbow grease to get the job done it isn't worth it. All you really is a chemical respirator to safely spray pre-cat.


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## Curmudgeon (Jan 3, 2021)

Thank you, will also be looking into Target coatings...


Quickstep said:


> Which turbine sprayer are you using ? I'm debating a new compressor vs a turbine spray system.


I went to Target coatings website and saw that they sell a water based amber shellac sealer. Thinking this might do the trick under the lacquer. Worth a try...


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Quickstep said:


> Which turbine sprayer are you using ? I'm debating a new compressor vs a turbine spray system.


I have a Graco 4 Stage. I do not believe the brand is as important as how many stages it has. I was fortunate to have a friend give me his Graco. I was planning on purchasing a Fuji 4 stage. I use Fuji guns, and have two off brand for primers and such. With a 4 stage I do not find myself playing with the needle nozzle sets as much as I did when I was running off air. The majority of the finishes I spray I use a 1.3 set.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> I think if you buy some water based lacquer you will throw what is left over away. A water based lacquer takes so many more coats and elbow grease to get the job done it isn't worth it. All you really is a chemical respirator to safely spray pre-cat.


What WB product are you using? I find the build much better/consistent with WB than solvent. I haven't spayed solvent based in years and have no intention of ever using it again. Never say never but I'll NEVER use brush on poly ever.  

Target makes a WB Shellac sanding sealer that offers an amber tone. I'm personally not a fan of the target line. Aside from I feel it's a softer finish without that cross link thing, There's nothing really wrong with it but prefer other finishes. 

Crysal Lac is the least of my favorites and WAY overpriced. We usually HVLP air spay either ML Campbell Agualente or Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua. 

My "standard" program for furniture is alcohol die stain, seal with alcohol based shellac. Zinser is fine but cut 50% with DA. Sometimes I'll seal before stain but will use a 65- 75% cut. Let it off gas over night, sand. I usually tint my first few coats of clear with die and the last two coats I leave un-tinted. I only "sand" between my last two coats.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

GCTony said:


> What WB product are you using? I find the build much better/consistent with WB than solvent. I haven't spayed solvent based in years and have no intention of ever using it again. Never say never but I'll NEVER use brush on poly ever.
> 
> Target makes a WB Shellac sanding sealer that offers an amber tone. I'm personally not a fan of the target line. Aside from I feel it's a softer finish without that cross link thing, There's nothing really wrong with it but prefer other finishes.
> 
> ...


Tony, What do you dislike about Target and like about ML Campell and Sherwin WIlliams? I have been spraying Target since they were a small startup company in NJ and have never had any problems, but I am always looking for improvements. I have never used the waterborne from ML Campbell and Sherwin Williams and would appreciate your opinion.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GCTony said:


> What WB product are you using? I find the build much better/consistent with WB than solvent. I haven't spayed solvent based in years and have no intention of ever using it again. Never say never but I'll NEVER use brush on poly ever.
> 
> Target makes a WB Shellac sanding sealer that offers an amber tone. I'm personally not a fan of the target line. Aside from I feel it's a softer finish without that cross link thing, There's nothing really wrong with it but prefer other finishes.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's changed. I was pestered by the fire marshal in 1986 spraying nitro lacquer and tried every different brand of water base I could find and threw it all away. It was less work to move my business out of the county so that is what I did. In order to use the water based lacquer I was having to spray a dozen coats sanding between coats to match what I could do with nitro putting a coat of sealer on and two coats of lacquer.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

not sure what his game is.
this post





Water-Based Vs. Solvent-Based Varnish | Quicksand Flooring


Varnish is a transparent and protective finish that is primarily used to accentuate the appearance of wood. But which is better, water-based or solvent-based?



www.quicksandflooring.com.au




Water-Based Varnish
Water-based varnishes are becoming an increasingly common alternative to solvent-based varnishes. They consist of acrylic resins which have been dissolved in water, making them a safer choice. As a result of advances in technology, water-based varnishes are proving to be just as effective as solvent based varnishes. They offer a number of benefits, including excellent durability, prompt drying times, and lower odour emissions. Water-based varnishes can also be easily cleaned from brushes when dry by simply using warm, soapy water.
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Robert G Brown
3 and 1/2 years ago I paid $79.99 for a complete Sargent 1080 in original wooden box. One of the bottom corners had been chewed away. Mice had nested in the box. Plane and cutters okay after cleaning - minimal rust. I like mine. I also have several Stanley 45's and Stanley 46's and one Wards 45 in really good condition. I got them all from eBay and never paid more than $100 at a time. 
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What is purging in compressor?


Purge valve Before startup, it is necessary to purge air from the compressor and piping system. A purge valve is installed as a bypass to the suction shutdown valve for this purpose. Purging must be done with a low flow rate to prevent the purge gas from initiating compressor rotation.




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Add Another Air Tank


Why add another air tank to your air compressor? What are the ramifications? This is page two of an article about...




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When you add another air tank, when you are not using compressed air, your air compressor will run and fill both tanks - the one that came with the compressor and the one you have just added. This means that the air compressor motor will run longer before reaching cut out pressure and stopping. The compressor pump is now filling a larger volume.


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## lachlananderson (Sep 27, 2021)

*Water Based*

Finishes are low odour
Maintains the natural colour of the timber floors
Will not yellow over time
Available in Matt, Satin & Gloss Finishes
Highly durable
*Solvent Based*

Finishes have considerable odour, which can take up to 7 days to dissipate in the home
Enhances or warms the colour of the timber
Will yellow over time
Available in Matt, Satin & Gloss Finishes. Solvent based Gloss finishes can be extremely glossy when compared to water based
Durable


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

B Coll said:


> Tony, What do you dislike about Target and like about ML Campell and Sherwin WIlliams? I have been spraying Target since they were a small startup company in NJ and have never had any problems, but I am always looking for improvements. I have never used the waterborne from ML Campbell and Sherwin Williams and would appreciate your opinion.


Sorry it's been months. Regarding my experience with Target (I used various lines so don't recall numbers);

Have to order online since I don't know of anyone that is stocking it. 
What's with this cross link thing? 
I had a white oven wall cabinet yellow so badly in less than a year I ended up refinishing it at my expense.
Sprayed a black built in niche and installed it before I let it cure 100% and the client scuffed it badly. Without a cross linker, cure time shouldn't be weeks.
Cost; 25% more than any similar product I use and that doesn't include the cross linker stuff. 
I had locker room benches also semi gloss black that had the same drying/scuffing issues. 
I feel there may be some chemistry/engineering that isn't quite right when you compare them with the big boys.

I'm not bashing Target and love supporting the small people but I've had too many issues for it to remain in my bag of tricks. Keeping it short and to the point, I think it's more suitable for a hobbiest.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> Maybe it's changed. I was pestered by the fire marshal in 1986 spraying nitro lacquer and tried every different brand of water base I could find and threw it all away. It was less work to move my business out of the county so that is what I did. In order to use the water based lacquer I was having to spray a dozen coats sanding between coats to match what I could do with nitro putting a coat of sealer on and two coats of lacquer.


I think the water borne stuff has changed quite a bit in the last 5 - 10 years. I walked away kicking and screaming about 10 years ago because the powers to be said I could no longer spray anything explosive without explosion proof everything and installing economizers on our hvac systems costing a small fortune that wouldn't allow me to stay in business. There's certainly a learning curve with water borne finishes but I wouldn't go back to 100% solvents even if I could. ( I still spray some Pre Cat and CV but not very often)

Generally I sand once after my seal coat and once after my two clears, then one final clear. I have a "filter wall" (doesn't exhaust to the outside) I use but small work I wouldn't need to use it because the air borne dust is very minimal. I think the HVLP equipment has improved a lot over the years as well as the finishes.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Quickstep said:


> Which turbine sprayer are you using ? I'm debating a new compressor vs a turbine spray system.


I have a Graco 4 Stage. My clear coat gun is a Fuji T75G, I have a few cheaper guns for pigments, primers, and stain. Fuji makes a great turbine also and some attractive packages. That is what I was looking at before I got the Graco used at a price I could not refuse. Some say 2 stage is fine, I would recommend no less than 3 stage, 4 stage if you plan on spraying any latex or acrylics.


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## Jay_L (Oct 16, 2020)

GCTony said:


> What's with this cross link thing?


Target’s CL-100 crosslinker is the chemical equivalent to CoatoOSil 1770 Silane by Momentive:

https://www.momentive.com/en-us/pro...roductid=9b83b43e-5344-411d-ab9d-b46f1f7d93cf


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

GCTony said:


> Sorry it's been months. Regarding my experience with Target (I used various lines so don't recall numbers);
> 
> Have to order online since I don't know of anyone that is stocking it.
> What's with this cross link thing?
> ...


I also find the black lacquer takes too long to cure. I get around that by putting clear polycarbonate, I think they call it EM8000 or something like that, on top. I did the same with their white on a dresser I did for a client years ago. I saw it a few months back and it is still as pure white as the day I sprayed it. Perhaps their formulation has changed. I agree they are pricey, especially when you get walloped with the shipping costs. Where I am I can get ML Campbell, but only solvent and the business can not, or will not order the Aqua Kem for me. I like Target, but certainly not married to it and would be interested in any other good performers.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

Jay_L said:


> Target’s CL-100 crosslinker is the chemical equivalent to CoatoOSil 1770 Silane by Momentive:
> 
> https://www.momentive.com/en-us/pro...roductid=9b83b43e-5344-411d-ab9d-b46f1f7d93cf


With the other water borne lacquer's I'm using no cross linker required. Again, nothing against Target but I'm getting more for less with my other options.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

B Coll said:


> I also find the black lacquer takes too long to cure. I get around that by putting clear polycarbonate, I think they call it EM8000 or something like that, on top. I did the same with their white on a dresser I did for a client years ago. I saw it a few months back and it is still as pure white as the day I sprayed it. Perhaps their formulation has changed. I agree they are pricey, especially when you get walloped with the shipping costs. Where I am I can get ML Campbell, but only solvent and the business can not, or will not order the Aqua Kem for me. I like Target, but certainly not married to it and would be interested in any other good performers.


It's crazy that Sherwin Williams won't order you Kem Aqua Plus. Our main store stocks all the clears along with the tintable bases. My local store was stocking it until one of the bigger shops stopped using it. I buy the Agualenta from a whole sale cabinet/plywood supplier. (Wurth)


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