# Bevel cutting on table saw



## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

Ok, I'll try to keep the question as short as possible. I just found a table saw that is fairly old, but in excellent shape. It's a Makita 2711, and besides a little rust there doesn't seem to be much wrong with it. Tomorrow I plan on fixing it up a little bit and getting a new blade for it etc.

My question is this. The reason I wanted the saw was because I wanted to cut 45 degree bevels into the edge of plywood pieces. The pieces are around 17" long on the sides that I want to add the bevel to. Now, the saw has a sliding table on the left side, which means that I cannot move the fence to the left side, and due to the depth of the sliding table, I cannot cut a 17" piece on it. It would seem that 15" is probably close to the max width that I could cut on the sliding table.

In doing a bit of reading about safety tonight (my table saw experience is limited to doing extremely dangerous things with wood flooring), I realized that not only have I done a great deal of dangerous things in the past, but apparently cutting a bevel on a right tilting blade, with the piece up against a right side fence, is a dangerous thing to do. 

So whats the solution to this problem? Is it really that dangerous to cut bevels with the blade tilted towards the fence? I've done all sorts of reading about european standards and various warnings and am at the point where I just need to ask. The answer is NOT to move the fence over to the left, because I can't do it on this saw. 

What about a spreader? The saw used to have one according to the manual, and it seems fairly easy to install one of my own making. If I do that, will it reduce the risk of kickback while cutting the bevels at all? Totally at a loss as to what to do at this point.


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

One other thought. In reading some stuff tonight I realized that in europe it is very common to do this kind of cut with the blade tilted to the right and the fence positioned to the right of the blade. The big difference is that their fences are short, and do not extend past the blade. I could just add a piece of wood to the current fence and set it up as a shortened fence, basically accomplishing the same thing that the EU safety standards suggest.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't advise it*

I would not attempt to make a bevel where the the blade is trapping the workpiece underneath it, no matter the length of the fence.
If you can't attach or hold the work to the sliding table on the left side of the blade, then I wouldn't do it. A jig or clamps to hold it from shifting would be best. 
You may not be able to accomplish this safely on this saw. 
You don't not want to be a plaintiff in a lawsuit. If this project is a necessity I would do it on a left tilt saw with enough room to the right for the fence to make the cut safely. Post your location for help or take the piece to a cabinet shop or school shop where there is proper equipment. JMO  bill

Do not try this at home:


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

I may be way off base here, but why wouldn't you want to cut the bevel with the falloff on the left side of a right tilted blade? If you've got adequate clearance for a push stick to continue the work piece past the blade, the off cut would then be on the open side of the blade so to speak. If the off cut is under the closed side of the blade, could not this be propelled back toward the user? Just curious.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

sawdustfactory said:


> I may be way off base here, but why wouldn't you want to cut the bevel with the falloff on the left side of a right tilted blade? If you've got adequate clearance for a push stick to continue the work piece past the blade, the off cut would then be on the open side of the blade so to speak. If the off cut is under the closed side of the blade, could not this be propelled back toward the user? Just curious.


That puts your workpiece trapped UNDER the blade and between the fence,,, max velocity kickback. Furniture factory I worked at had a guy ripping 45's on 1x1 for nailing strips. Had about a 12 ft long stick kickback and pierce both walls of a insulated steel building, 20 feet behind the saw....


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, that is exactly what I've been reading. I don't know a ton about working with wood, but I tend to research things exhaustively, and I'm glad I did. That said, I have no idea what I'll do because I am not going to go out and buy a saw at this time, and I'll have to cut more of these coming up here in the future. 

I had definitely considered attaching the piece to the sliding table in some other manner, and then doing the cut that way. It's just that in reading this and other threads like it, it's become obvious to me that what is extremely dangerous here is common practice over there. The BIG HUGE difference being that over here saws don't always have a riving knife and a short fence. (as in almost never have these from what Ive gathered)

It makes sense that the cut is safe if the fence is shortened, since everyone seems to say that the big danger is the piece being trapped beneath the blade and against the fence. With the shortened fence in the thread above (see Niki's posts) it seems to alleviate this problem. However, it still seems like a better way to do the cut would be to just have the blade tilt away from the fence. It's like the europeans have just found a way to make a dangerous situation less dangerous....but on the other hand, they wouldn't have it in their union safety books if they were having accidents every year.

What do you guys think? I still feel like if I add an auxiliary fence that runs short, I would basically be replicating the european standards and essentially turn the saw into a totally safe tool. Well, as safe as something can be with me using it anyways. Thanks for the responses by the way.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

I'll admit to just plain not liking TS generated 45*'s.And will avoid it at cost....choosing other methods that work better for us here.We do have a small 8 or 9 inch "travel" TS,that because of its shorter table/rip fence....it does work alot better than big saws.It alows us to set it for a 45* and leave it alone.....not desurbing the big saws 90* setting.


That just shows what works here.....not suggesting anybody run out and buy an 8" TS.Keep working on your shop strategy's.....be safe(I know you are)with the TS trapped pcs.BW


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## eric8x (Dec 12, 2011)

If the off cut is under the closed side of the blade, could not this be propelled back toward the user? Just curious.


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

eric8x said:


> If the off cut is under the closed side of the blade, could not this be propelled back toward the user? Just curious.


YES that is what most of the post are about cutting on a right tilt blade and wood between the fence.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

johnnydenver said:


> It makes sense that the cut is safe if the fence is shortened, since everyone seems to say that the big danger is the piece being trapped beneath the blade and against the fence. With the shortened fence in the thread above (see Niki's posts) it seems to alleviate this problem. However, it still seems like a better way to do the cut would be to just have the blade tilt away from the fence. It's like the europeans have just found a way to make a dangerous situation less dangerous....but on the other hand, they wouldn't have it in their union safety books if they were having accidents every year.
> 
> What do you guys think? I still feel like if I add an auxiliary fence that runs short, I would basically be replicating the european standards and essentially turn the saw into a totally safe tool. Well, as safe as something can be with me using it anyways. Thanks for the responses by the way.









 
I've used the "short fence" and would not recommend its use. When Niki first discussed its use, he and I had many conversations both in threads and in emails. For whatever reason that part of the world thought it would be a "safer" method, this part of the world doesn't agree.

In theory, eliminating the space between the blade and the fence for already cut wood to make it safer by eliminating the possibility of the stock to be "trapped" has merit, but there is a dark side. It doesn't provide a guide path for what wood leads the part that hasn't been cut yet. Once the wood is cut, it has the option of heading in any direction. For lumber of any real length, the cut end doesn't necessarily seek the open space to the right of the blade (if the fence is to the right of the blade). 

Stressed wood, or heavily grained, or wood with a high MC, can "walk", and even with a splitter/riving knife, the stock can get bound on those safety devices. I find it more of a safety feature to have a guided path for the stock being cut.

As for your bevel cutting, you might be able to temporarily fix a straight fence of sorts...could be anything with a straight edge. It can be set up a distance from the blade to allow for the wider stock being cut. Not to use the sliding table. The temp fence can be clamped down or fixed to be parallel at points on or near the table. As long as it isn't loose, and will work as a guide, it's safer than cutting a bevel with the wood under a tipped over blade.

I have a small 10" bench top table saw that goes to the job sites. I have a fence that came with it, but the table/rail assembly doesn't present much width. So, I configured an add on top with a loose fence that can give me a 4' width if need be. So, where there's a will...there's a way.












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this may work*

If your sliding table can be secured in place, then using a clamp like this on it which includes a fence, the fence can be set to the desired width while having the blade tilted to the right. 

*24" Pro Grip Clamp and Universal Fence*









Create your own fence for your bandsaw, router table or drill press. Simply attach the fence to the 24" Pro Grip Clamp (included) with provided hardware kit and Clamp to any router table, drill press or Bandsaw and lock it down, it's that easy. T-slots running the length on the back and front allows for fastening feather boards, Hold downs, false fence boards, stop blocks and more. Creat longer fence by adding a second Pro-Grip universal fence (PLU#606)

Package Includes: 
•1ea. 24" Pro-Grip Clamp
•1ea. 3-1/2” in height by 18” long.
•Hardware Kit (To attach fence to clamp)


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

There were about a zillion Unisaws made through the years that were right-tilt only and had extended 50" fences off to the right. I own one of these beasts. With a Unifence, the width of stock that can be cut on the left side is fairly narrow.

This thread got me thinking as to how I could do exactly what the OP wants to do: cut bevels on plywood. I brought this right-cut bevel safety situation up once on another site that deals specifically with vintage machinery and nearly got booed off the site. I got the impression that they felt the safety issue was exaggerated. 

How would you guys approach bevel cuts on a Unisaw like this? I would imagine 3 HP could toss a wide plywood sheet a fair distance, or cause other unpleasantness. I could slide the Unifence back to make it a 'short' fence but from reading above, that apparently isn't a great solution either.

Bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*right vs left discussion*

Bill, I've never owned a right tilt saw and I'm right handed as are a majority of people. I think that the right tilt saws lost favor, because of this and the issue of cutting bevels on larger panels, which is not a frequent condition. I think panel saws and sliding table saws with huge capacity to the left have eliminated the issue for the most part. Beveled corners also seem to have lost favor with cabinet makers when other jointing techniques which are more forgiving can be used. Face frame construction also eliminates the miter as a preferred joint for cabinets since it hides the intersection of the panels. 
In my experience making a perfect 45 degree bevel on all 4 corners of a cabinet requires a very accurate saw and no movement of the panel during the cut. BTDT :yes:
As suggested a short fence doesn't solve the problem. What I have determined is the longer the fence the better, more control on the infeed and outfeed to keep the panel against the fence.
The saved piece is of course on the right, between the blade and fence, the off fall on the left. The longer I can keep that piece under control, the better.
I have used an 7 ft aluminum extrusion between a curved board making 2 contact points on the aluminum, to straight line rip when in a hurry, rather than getting out the 8 foot straight line jig. It sorta requires 3 hands, but it can be done. :laughing:

Maybe the OP can't get what he wants using the tools he has so that's a choice for him to make. He has asked for suggestions and that's all we can do and caution him to be safe.  bill


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks again for the responses. Was just in town this morning picking up a few random things and thought of clamping an additional fence on the side with the sliding table. Of course there are problems with doing that because of the shape of the table, but maybe I'll find a way to make it work. Otherwise I have some ideas for how I could use the sliding table still, although it would require a two step process, thus costing me time. (but also probably safer)

I've been thinking of my Dad while thinking of this problem since yesterday. If he were here I think he would just laugh at me, call me a pussy, and cut the pieces with the blade tilted towards the fence. As I said, in the past I've done some fairly dangerous things while laying wood floors. 

I suppose my next thing to do will be trying to figure out what the preferred method for cutting these bevels on plywood pieces would be. It was mentioned that someone didn't like TS bevels anyways. I could borrow my brother's miter saw, but it isn't going to let me slide out and cut a 17" bevel anyways. If anyone cares to point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Or of course, i could just go back to winging it with my circular saw and getting less than stellar results. :icon_smile:

I know very little about this kind of stuff, and will probably be spending quite a bit of time reading on here in the coming months. Thanks again.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

dodgeboy77 said:


> How would you guys approach bevel cuts on a Unisaw like this? I would imagine 3 HP could toss a wide plywood sheet a fair distance, or cause other unpleasantness. I could slide the Unifence back to make it a 'short' fence but from reading above, that apparently isn't a great solution either.
> 
> Bill


For large panels, it can get uncontrollable. Even if you do those cuts, plywood, as you know, isn't absolutely flat. So when a pass is made, any deviation in how well the sheet remains flat on the table will affect the quality of the bevel. 

One answer is not to do it on the TS, but rather use a handheld circular saw, and a straightedge. At least the shoe will follow the plane of the sheet producing an accurate bevel. Doing it this way will also give the opportunity to position the sheet for the bevel with your choice of which face goes down.

I use a shop made straightedge like a "T" square, for a "skilsaw" to cut an 8' pass.
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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

My other thing is that if I do the makeshift fence on the left side, then I'm going to have about an inch between the blade and the fence, with the other 17 inches off to the side. This is ok? It makes a lot of sense to me that I would want to be cutting off my waste, and have the saved piece between the blade and the fence, but no matter what I do on this saw that isn't going to happen. 

The fence it comes with cannot be moved to the left of the blade at all.


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

Sounds good, Ill forget about the table saw for the bevels for now.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*a final suggestion from me*

Make a small table saw larger by doing this:

Lower the saw blade.
Lay a 4 x 4 ft 1/2" thick panel; on top of the saw favoring the left side and keep it parallel with the right edge of the table if all possible.
Support it and clamp it down, keeping the clamps or bolts clear of the work area on the left of the blade 
Turn on the saw and raise the blade slowly until it will cut through your panel thickness.
Measure over to your desired dimension and add 1/4" or so. 
Clamp or screw a "T" square fence in that location parallel to the blade and opposite the right edge of the table.
Make your first bevels. Then add a strip to move the "fence" over to the desired dimension and make the opposite bevel.
It just may work,but be safer than other methods discussed?
 bill
BTW. Don't worry about what your Dad might have said. Dads and sons lock horns on a regular basis, until the sons become as smart as the old man... Don't ask me how I know this. :no:


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

johnnydenver said:


> My other thing is that if I do the makeshift fence on the left side, then I'm going to have about an inch between the blade and the fence, with the other 17 inches off to the side. This is ok? It makes a lot of sense to me that I would want to be cutting off my waste, and have the saved piece between the blade and the fence, but no matter what I do on this saw that isn't going to happen.
> 
> The fence it comes with cannot be moved to the left of the blade at all.


 
Hi Johnny - That wouldn't happen to be a Ryobi BTS 21 would it:blink:
I danced with one of those for nearly a year, finally maxed out my vocabulary an started repeating myself so I got rid of it.
Back to your 45's, do you have a router table. Wouldn't be a bad job with a champfer bit.:yes:


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

No, it's a makita 2711. Its from the late 80's as far as I can tell, and in excellent condition. It definitely spent well over a decade covered up and not being used. In looking at it more closely this morning, it seems like the entire fence mechanism could be moved to the opposite side but I am not going to bother with that. 99% of the time I will be cutting with it at 90 degrees so why take the chance of ruining a perfectly good machine. Maybe someday in the future I will buy a newer table saw more suited to doing bevel cuts, but with it being the holiday season I have had enough of spending money for a while.

And Bill, that idea makes a lot of sense. I doubt I'll try it any time soon, but what you're suggesting opens up all sorts of possibilities. I am so unfamiliar with woodworking and the various things people do that most every suggestion is news to me. 

I spent years doing ceramic and stone work with my Dad, with the occasional wood floor or two mixed in, so I have some experience building things and modifying stuff etc. He and I always got along great, while my brother and him fought constantly. The difference between the two of us is that he likes to wing it and is fearless (fine line between bravery and stupidity?), while I prefer to research things and stay safe. We actually made a very good team for these very reasons, but his knees and the rest of his body have taken him out of the trades in the last few years. 

Thanks again guys, look forward to learning more from this place.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Flatness...in most cases the lack of,is probably the biggest hurdle for us.If its just onesey twosey on sheet goods,a circ saw with new blade and straight edges is hard to beat for speed and accuracy.

Dang,doin an absolutely pain in the butt job today in shop.........would rather be out digging a ditch with a dull shovel.Its a curved pc of 8/4 Maple thats cut on a radius and also twisted,with a Roman OG edge on a French curve no-less.........who comes up with this stuff?Got two down two more to go.Edge sanders and BS gettin a workout today.....gotta go.BW


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Woodnthings & C-Man,

Thanks for your responses to my slight thread hijack regarding the Unisaw.

My decision is that I just wont cut bevels on the right side of the blade! I'll either use a different type of joint or cut bevels with the circular saw and guide.

Bill


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

johnnydenver said:


> The pieces are around 1*7" long* on the sides that I want to add the bevel to. Now, the saw has a sliding table on the left side, which means that I cannot move the fence to the left side, and due to the depth of the sliding table, I cannot cut a 17" piece on it. It would seem that 15" is probably close to the max width that I could cut on the sliding table.


Got a little confused when you said 17" long, but I get it now. You meant you want to cut a piece 17" in width with the bevel on that width. If I wasn't comfortable cutting the bevel on the table saw, then I'd clamp a staightedge on the sheet, bevel the blade on my Skilsaw, cut it, and call it a day.

*EDIT:*_ Oops! Beaten to the punch by Cabinetman! Should've read the responses in depth more before opening my big mouth! Ah well.._.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*one last final suggestion....*

Make an extended left side table for your sliding fence that extends over to the blade when tilted. Make a provision to attach a fence with clamps or bolts or a "T" square type that you can set for your width of cut...you never said what that was...only that the bevels need to be 17" long, so this may not work. This must be some sorta weird saw that has all these limitations??? Got a few pictures of this thing?
:blink: bill


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

It's the saw that is seen in this picture. But, it is older than that model. The dimensions are probably the same. The problem is that the piece is 17" wide, which is probably about 2" too wide to use the sliding table on the side. Today I bought a straight edge that clamps underneath and it just barely could be fitted on the left side to act as a fence.....but I then used that same straight edge to cut it with my circular saw and that worked as well. 

I'm new to this, and certainly new to trying to do things so precisely. The bevel was greatly improved over what I had managed to do with a clamped down level and my circular saw last week. After the crappy results I had last week I just assumed that the correct way to do it would be with a table saw. I don't know if Ill use it for the bevels in the future, but right now I'm amazed at how well the machine works. I tightened some stuff and oiled a few things before using it. I'm sure I'll look back on all this one day and laugh at myself. It's happened many times when learning new things. :yes:

Thanks again guys.


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## johnnydenver (Dec 12, 2011)

And sorry about the width and length thing. It is 17" wide, 22" long.


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