# Clear coat over dye



## Dixiereb31 (Nov 23, 2009)

O.k. Here's what I've done. Used HVLP to apply dye to dresser. Allowed to dry, then sprayed several coats of clear satin poly (water based). Allowed this to dry for several day/weeks. Moved dresser into house to its permanent location, wiped the dresser top to clean it and noticed on the paper towel the dye was coming off. Not a lot, but enough to cause alarm. I used denatured alcohol as a vehicle to apply the dye. DN evaporates rather quickly, do you think it ate through the poly?
Why is the dye coming through? I used Rustoleum clear satin polyurethane.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Dondi12 said:


> O.k. Here's what I've done. Used HVLP to apply dye to dresser. Allowed to dry, then sprayed several coats of clear satin poly (water based). Allowed this to dry for several day/weeks. Moved dresser into house to its permanent location, wiped the dresser top to clean it and noticed on the paper towel the dye was coming off. Not a lot, but enough to cause alarm. I used denatured alcohol as a vehicle to apply the dye. DN evaporates rather quickly, do you think it ate through the poly?
> Why is the dye coming through? I used Rustoleum clear satin polyurethane.


I can't picture the dye wiping off after being topcoated. I believe something else is going on. Have you been spraying something else with dye where the overspray may have settled on the dresser? The dye mixed with alcohol will dry in a minute or so and the water based poly should seal the color in. The poly is literally a plastic coating over the dye. 

I would wait until you clean the dresser a few times before worrying about it. I have a hunch you won't see anymore dye wiping off.


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

The dyes I've used (Transtint) have been soluble to some extent both in alcohol and water.

Could it be that when you sprayed your first coat of poly some of the dye on the surface of the wood dissolved in the water of your poly solution, and got incorporated into the poly? 

Then some of that dye dissolved in the water of the next coat, etc., with each subsequent coat. I'd think, though, that the amount of dye dissolving into the next poly coat should decrease markedly. 

You said that the poly cured several days/weeks before you wiped and found dye. But how long did you wait between coats? If each coat hadn't cured fully before applying the next coat, it seems to me that it would be easier for the dye to bleed through to the next coat. just a guess.

BTW (not to hijack the thread), but I just started using Rustoleum water based poly, only one project- brushed on a table top. But I like to spray finish when I can. How did you use it- straight out of the can, or diluted- if so, with what, and by how much?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree with Steve.

Did you see any color when you sanded between the topcoats on your sand paper???

The water based topcoat will not "re-wet" an alcohol based dye stain, especially if the dye stain was dry.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Both the dye and the top coat are soluble in water. Therefore, when you sprayed the waterborne clear coat you partially diluted the dye into the clear coat. Each subsequent application re-dissolved some of the prior film finish. Even though it seemed "dry" the clear coat contained some dye coloring.

I always mist on the first couple of waterborne clear coats the apply a couple of full strength coats.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

HowardAcheson said:


> Both the dye and the top coat are soluble in water. Therefore, when you sprayed the waterborne clear coat you partially diluted the dye into the clear coat. Each subsequent application re-dissolved some of the prior film finish. Even though it seemed "dry" the clear coat contained some dye coloring.
> 
> I always mist on the first couple of waterborne clear coats the apply a couple of full strength coats.


He said he used an alcohol based dye. Water base topcoats will not re-wet a solvent dye stain once its dry. There is nothing in a water based topcoat to lift a solvent dye stain. You can actually brush a water based sealer or topcoat over the solvent based dye stain and it will not move it. Water based clears dry very fast as well, so even if somehow it did wet back, it would have more than likely dried in the first clear applied and not laid on top of the very last coat......especially after several days of drying.

Now if he would have used a water based dye stain that would be different. He would then have to apply a barrier, such as a wash coat or dewaxed shellac to keep it from wetting back before applying the water based topcoat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> He said he used an alcohol based dye. Water base topcoats will not re-wet a solvent dye stain once its dry. There is nothing in a water based topcoat to lift a solvent dye stain. You can actually brush a water based sealer or topcoat over the solvent based dye stain and it will not move it. Water based clears dry very fast as well, so even if somehow it did wet back, it would have more than likely dried in the first clear applied and not laid on top of the very last coat......especially after several days of drying.
> 
> Now if he would have used a water based dye stain that would be different. He would then have to apply a barrier, such as a wash coat or dewaxed shellac to keep it from wetting back before applying the water based topcoat.


I think if the OP flooded the surface with the poly it could get some of the dye suspended in the finish. What I have a problem with is the dye bleeding into consecutive coats. I think any dye that might be suspended in the first coat would stay there as though it was a pigmented paint.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I think if the OP flooded the surface with the poly it could get some of the dye suspended in the finish. What I have a problem with is the dye bleeding into consecutive coats. I think any dye that might be suspended in the first coat would stay there as though it was a pigmented paint.


I agree about the dye not bleeding into consecutive coats.....I dont see that happening. It would be dry after the first coat. 

But I also dont see flooding a solvent dye stain with a water based topcoat moving the dye stain either. Even when you spray a solvent based wash coat over a solvent based dye stain its hard for it to rewet back (unless you flood the washcoat, and a washcoat drys fast as well) rather alone a water based topcoat. It would be like trying to wash off a dye stain with water, darn near impossible......and thats rubbing it with a rag.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> I agree about the dye not bleeding into consecutive coats.....I dont see that happening. It would be dry after the first coat.
> 
> But I also dont see flooding a solvent dye stain with a water based topcoat moving the dye stain either. Even when you spray a solvent based wash coat over a solvent based dye stain its hard for it to rewet back (unless you flood the washcoat, and a washcoat drys fast as well) rather alone a water based topcoat. It would be like trying to wash off a dye stain with water, darn near impossible......and thats rubbing it with a rag.


The OP never actually said what dye he used. Most of these guys that use a dye use transtint and it's soluble in water as well as alcohol. We are kind of gambling that it is transtint or another similar product a water based poly could pick up from the surface. Depending on how it was applied I could also picture any finish picking up a very small amount of the Mohawk NGR stain I use. Sometimes I don't apply a finish right after applying the dye and the wood gets covered in dust. In wiping off the dust the rag usually picks up some of the stain color with the dust so I can see a little floating up into the finish. Still the amount would be so slight it's not really worth mentioning.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The OP never actually said what dye he used. Most of these guys that use a dye use transtint and it's soluble in water as well as alcohol. We are kind of gambling that it is transtint or another similar product a water based poly could pick up from the surface. Depending on how it was applied I could also picture any finish picking up a very small amount of the Mohawk NGR stain I use. Sometimes I don't apply a finish right after applying the dye and the wood gets covered in dust. In wiping off the dust the rag usually picks up some of the stain color with the dust so I can see a little floating up into the finish. Still the amount would be so slight it's not really worth mentioning.


The OP said he used denatured alcohol so thats what Im going by. If it was totally dry, its not coming up from applying a water based topcoat. Like I said, you can brush on a WB topcoat over a solvent based dye stain.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> Water base topcoats will not re-wet a solvent dye stain once its dry.

Sure it will. Give it a try. Apply a coat of dye to a wood surface. Let it fully dry and then wipe it with a damped cloth. You will see the dye that has been transferred to the cloth.

Many finishers use the above technique to lighten and/or even out a dye stained surface.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

HowardAcheson said:


> >>>> Water base topcoats will not re-wet a solvent dye stain once its dry.
> 
> Sure it will. Give it a try. Apply a coat of dye to a wood surface. Let it fully dry and then wipe it with a damped cloth. You will see the dye that has been transferred to the cloth.
> 
> Many finishers use the above technique to lighten and/or even out a dye stained surface.


Sure rubbing a damp rag will.......Then try brushing on a water based topcoat when a solvent based dye stain is dry and see what happens......but I'm pretty sure the OP sprayed it.

Most water based topcoats are acrylic based and will not re-wet a solvent dye stain. I've shot lots of water topcoats over solvent dye stains and they never crawl or anything. But you have to be careful shooting water over a water based dye stain as it will crawl.....that's when you should apply a barrier coat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Sure rubbing a damp rag will.......Then try brushing on a water based topcoat when a solvent based dye stain is dry and see what happens......but I'm pretty sure the OP sprayed it.
> 
> Most water based topcoats are acrylic based and will not re-wet a solvent dye stain. I've shot lots of water topcoats over solvent dye stains and they never crawl or anything. But you have to be careful shooting water over a water based dye stain as it will crawl.....that's when you should apply a barrier coat.


Randy, the wood isn't going to take 100% of the dye. A little is just going to lay on the surface. That is what is getting wiped off. Consequently when you brush any finish the brush is going to pick up a trace of the dye. You could write on a board with a sharpie permanent marker and wipe a little off with a clean dry cloth.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Randy, the wood isn't going to take 100% of the dye. A little is just going to lay on the surface. That is what is getting wiped off. Consequently when you brush any finish the brush is going to pick up a trace of the dye. You could write on a board with a sharpie permanent marker and wipe a little off with a clean dry cloth.


Why are you guys saying something about wiping with a wet rag? I said washing off a stain with a rag with water would be impossible. It will wash off maybe half the color, but that's about it. I know you can wipe a stain with a rag dampened with water and some of the stain will lift whether its an alcohol or a water dye stain.....I know it will.

what I'm saying is you can actually brush on a water based topcoat over an alcohol dye stain and it will not move the dye stain. Just try it and you will see. You can brush a WB topcoat over a solvent or alcohol based dye stain all day long. You can not brush it on over a water applied dye stain because it will rewet and move.

Even if the OP drowned the first coat of water based topcoat over the dye stain, once that topcoat dried that's it. WB clears do not melt into themselves. Acrylics will not rewet into themselves. It will not re-wet when applying another coat and come up to the top after applying several coats. No way that will happen. Bottom line is you can not rewet a dried acrylic film once its dry by applying another coat over it.

I'm under the impression that either what you stated about an "over spray" may be what has happened or the OP applied several coats without the clears being dried properly.....which is hard to believe since WB dries fairly quickly and even faster when there is air movement. Even if that did happen, you would not be able to "wipeoff" color because the color would be trapped within the dried topcoat.


I guess we need to wait until he comes back and we find out how and what he applied.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Found this so I Copied and Pasted it from Jeff Jewitt himself:

"If you do use a waterbased or alcohol based product to seal the TT, there may be some transfer of dye, but little or no "bleeding" into that topcoat which happens rarely with TT".

So Jeff is basically saying that the dye "will not transfer" into the WB topcoat, and I agree with that. Keep in mind hes talking about trans tint dyes, but I pretty much believe that goes for all dyes. Like I said, Ive brushed on WB topcoats over dye stains before to give the piece I was working on a last minute textured feel and had no problems at all.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't know about washing some of the dye off with water to lighten it. The amount that would come off would be so negligible it wouldn't be worth the trouble. I have lightened dye a little using lacquer thinner. Still all I said is not all the dye will penetrate into the wood and what is settled on the surface would be subject to lifting up into the finish or being carried away with a brush. I could see that happening with the first coat but should be pretty well sealed in after that. 

I'm still convinced there is something like overspray going on with the OP. I used to do a lot of finishing of mahogany furniture and sometimes I would spray a dye on one table and then have a fine layer of the red dust settle on another table across the finishing room from the other table. It's very disturbing to go to sand sealer and have the sanding dust red. You feel like you are sanding through. Most of the time I had to stop and clean the dye stain dust off before sanding, for peace of mind.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I with ya Steve. I think its over spray, Im pretty sure of it.

Yep, you can use a rag dampened with water to lighten a dye stain, either water based or solvent based. You can actually wipe off nearly half the color. The only problem with using water is it will tick the grain pretty bad on grainy woods, and once you apply a clear you can see just how bad it ruptured the wood. Most people now adays use ethanol to lighten a dye stain. You can also carefully remove a shading stain that has been shot over a sealer if your color is not right. The key to that is too not have your rag wet, but dampened and wipe it down gently with the grain.

Sometimes I will go light when spraying my dye stain and sneak up on it to get it to the right amount that I need when Im in doubt. Its alot better to be light than go too dark!


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