# Planer stripes with spiral head.



## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

Trying to get a good planing job on cherry wood with a Grizzly G0454Z planer with the German spiral cut head. I am getting length way stripes about the width of the cutter inserts. They will sand out but why should you have to do that? 
When I take a flashlight in a dim lighted room and shine it across the face of the board, I can see distinct cutter insert marks (hence the lenthways stripes. The spiral head is not cutting evenly across the width of the board.
Spent yesterday and today tearing the machine down, replacing cutterhead bearings, rotating the cutter inserts and fine tuning all specified settings with a dial indicator. NO CHANGE.
Is this just the nature of these spiral cutters? Has anyone else had this problem also? I would like to go back to a knife machine after this.
Buy the way, I did contact Griz tech support but haven't heard back from them yet.
Any thoughts or help is greatly appreciated.

Kevin


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't own a spiral head machine, but try running the board through twice on the last pass without moving the setting. I think every machine with a spiral head does that.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

All I got when I tried to double pass a board was feed roller marks.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Well, tell swmbo that you need a drum sander.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

Got one of those. Paper keeps coming loose on coarse drum. Why didn't they just rubberize both drums?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

If it is a grizzly, they said the rubber had to much give and didn't leave boards flat. I have a jet 1632 the paper never comes loose, even with 36 grit. I use my jet a lot. Since I got it I hardly ever use my planer.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never used a spiral head. Everything I've read about them it is normal for them to leave scallop streaks on the wood as it is surfaced.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

hwebb99, How is the paper held on a Jet sander? The coarse drum heats up and the tape lets loose on my grizzly.

Steve, Thanks for the reply. I wish I had that info before buying this darn spiral cut. My old 15" Jet outperformed this green thing 2 to 1 in quality.


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## phoenixbound (Nov 24, 2014)

I've got a Performax (Jet), which has a machined aluminum drum. The only time paper gets loose is when I futz up the installation of the paper, which doesn't happen much any more now that I know how to do it correctly! I love the machine but wish I had the newer version with the optional oscillating action.

The performax uses heavy springs to tension the ends of the paper.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The first time I saw a spiral head I couldn't believe it. I thought there is no way all those little knives could be aligned to where it would cut right. Then I starting reading reviews saying the same thing. I don't know just how much quieter the spiral head is suppose to be but I bought a antique 24" planer last year that weighed 2 tons. It surfaces a 24" wide board a lot quieter than my little Delta planer can surface a 12" wide board. Both planers have standard heads. You can stand next to it and carry on a conversation with someone while it is surfacing. I guess all the cast iron dampen the noise.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

the lines are worst on cherry, and worsen as the cutters get old. the corners start to round off. this is a con of the spiral heads. 

rotating the cutters, carefully installed will help, will help. we clean the pocket with a brass brush, and the bottom of the cutter, before reinstalling.


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## FishFactory (Nov 8, 2013)

I have the same machine with no issues.......very happy with the quality. Are you making sure the socket for the cutter is absolutely clean? Any dust in there will change the set of the cutter.


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## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

For almost 20 years those are the results that I get. The cutters should be torqued in all at same pressure, helps a little but will never be glass smooth. Service reps should tell you that, but they don't until you buy it.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Woodchips a plenty said:


> hwebb99, How is the paper held on a Jet sander? The coarse drum heats up and the tape lets loose on my grizzly.
> 
> Steve, Thanks for the reply. I wish I had that info before buying this darn spiral cut. My old 15" Jet outperformed this green thing 2 to 1 in quality.


My machine is also a performax. The drum is machined aluminum, it has metal clips inside the drums that put spring tension on the paper. They are always pulling on the paper so if it stretches during use it is still pulled tight. Does your spiral head leave worse stripes than a straight knife head. I know that the lines from the spiral will be along the grain and the straight knife will be across it. A planer just isn't a finish ready machine. Would a spiral head jointer leave a glue ready joint. If not doesn't that make it about worthless.


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## Tom-G (Nov 11, 2012)

I have the Grizzly 6" jointer with a spiral cutter head, and it leaves a very clean surface on the wood. I also have a Steel City lunch box planer with a spiral cutter head and you can see stripes only when holding the wood at an angle to the light. However you cannot feel any ridges. A quick pass with a random orbit sander and all is good for finishing.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> Does your spiral head leave worse stripes than a straight knife head. I know that the lines from the spiral will be along the grain and the straight knife will be across it. A planer just isn't a finish ready machine. Would a spiral head jointer leave a glue ready joint. If not doesn't that make it about worthless.



My dw735 with its stock straight knives leaves a finish ready surface if the knives aren't nicked. It doesn't leave any marks side to side at all.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> My dw735 with its stock straight knives leaves a finish ready surface if the knives aren't nicked. It doesn't leave any marks side to side at all.


So you don't sand at all, not even with 220 grit. I have found out that most high quality bench top planers such as the dw735 tend to leave a better finish and snipe less than the the big 15 inch or larger planers.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I sand my entire project at the end if it's being stained so the stain absorbs uniformly. Therefor that's a loaded statement, but the finish is good enough that you wouldn't have to....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Regardless of what type planer you use I think the wood needs to be thoroughly sanded afterwards. I have straight knives in my planer and I always belt sand the wood prior to finish sanding. 

The pictures show the difference in planer marks with straight knives compared to spiral.


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## BaldEagle2012 (Jan 25, 2012)

I have the Grizzly 6" jointer with spiral cutting head. Works flawlessly. I also have the Jet 16-32 drum sander. I used to have belts come loose and tear up during sanding, but have learned to not try a deep sanding action. just tweak the drum down and go again. After having burning on the boards, and or belt coming loose, I finally got it figured out on how to make sure the paper is tight to the drum, at times it takes a bit to make sure, but it is time well spent, otherwise I will be back to replacing or trying to tighten the paper to the drum.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> My machine is also a performax. The drum is machined aluminum, it has metal clips inside the drums that put spring tension on the paper. They are always pulling on the paper so if it stretches during use it is still pulled tight. Does your spiral head leave worse stripes than a straight knife head. I know that the lines from the spiral will be along the grain and the straight knife will be across it. A planer just isn't a finish ready machine. Would a spiral head jointer leave a glue ready joint. If not doesn't that make it about worthless.


 My grizzly 8" longbed jointer does a great job with the spiralcut head. I have attached an Accura 1 hp. power feed to it and it delivers glass like results. A far difference from the results of the planer.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

With a spiral head you get stripes but a lot less tear-out and knife marks. With figured grain, it is not easy to get no tear-out with normal planer blades.

With a drum sander, even going to 220 grit, you will still have sanding lines, needing touch-up with a random orbital.

For a small job, I touch up with hand planes, for a big job the orbital sander cleans up planer marks.

Personally, although I have not gone the spiral route, all the research I have done favors spiral cutters by a long shot, for finish and reliability.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I use my drum sander for almost all finishing work. Reason zero risk of tear out. I sand with the drum sander to 180 then I start at 150 with my ROS I usually sand to 320. I can't justify a spiral head for my bench top planer. I have been looking for a 2 ton monster planer on Craigslist. When I find one I will probably put a spiral head in it.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> I use my drum sander for almost all finishing work. Reason zero risk of tear out. I sand with the drum sander to 180 then I start at 150 with my ROS I usually sand to 320. I can't justify a spiral head for my bench top planer. I have been looking for a 2 ton monster planer on Craigslist. When I find one I will probably put a spiral head in it.


What brand RO are you using? I have a Dewalt and hate the thing.:furious:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I have a dewalt and wouldn't part with it for 3 times what I paid for it. (Clone of the now discontinued pc390 sander)


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

WillemJM said:


> What brand RO are you using? I have a Dewalt and hate the thing.:furious:


Why do you hate the dewalt? I have a 5 inch Bosch, and I don't like it. I have a 6 inch Bosch, and it is super. I have sanded about 20,000 square feet with it, and it is still going. If you hate sanding a card scraper and hand planes will go a long way. Since I bought my drum sander my RO sees about a 1/10 as much use. A drum sander makes sanding almost fun.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I think all 5inch ROS suck. My 6inch is way more aggressive, and leaves a smoother finish. Another reason is you can only use one hand to hold a 5 inch and both hands to hold 6 inch.












Sorry didn't mean to get to off topic.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

I have this one, it takes forever and throws dust everywhere. Very slow and time consuming.

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D26453K-5-Inch-Variable-Random/dp/B0007XXHGY


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think talking about sanders to get rid of the planer marks isn't too far off topic. 

I use a Porter Cable Quicksand. Never did like a sander with a bag on it.


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

Speaking of planers...is it normal to get a few chips tossed out the front of the machine? I got the Ridgid 4331 for xmas and am very happy with its performance...it came with the dust chute and I have it hooked up to a shop vac when I run it, so most of the chips get sucked up but there seems to always be some that get shot out the front...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Yes....


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

igster said:


> Speaking of planers...is it normal to get a few chips tossed out the front of the machine? I got the Ridgid 4331 for xmas and am very happy with its performance...it came with the dust chute and I have it hooked up to a shop vac when I run it, so most of the chips get sucked up but there seems to always be some that get shot out the front...


I have a delta planer. I usually don't hook up the dust collector because it is easier to sweep than to empty the dust collector. But when I do it does still shoot out a few chips.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Since I own and use a helical head planer, jointer, and shaper cutters as well as traditional straight knife equipment I'll jump in here for a minute......

The pictures posted earlier were *NOT* indicative of wood planed by properly set up and operated planers. If that was the best I could expect from my equipment I'd dump it in a heartbeat. Scalloping, whether from a straight knife planer or helical head, comes from a couple of problems. Either the knives are not properly set or the feed rate is too high. Our helical head equipment gives a much better finish, and the knives are far more durable.

Is the stripe you're seeing something new or has the planer always done it?


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

I have a Grizzly 0544 that has the Griz spiral head in it. It leaves some stripes in the planed surface, but it is certainly equivalent to the machine marks left by standard straight knife cutterheads in the same class of machine. Nothing that doesn't sand out with regular sanding. A planer is not a finishing tool, it is a dimensioning tool. No matter what type of head you use, there will usually be some machine marks to sand out. 

That said, I can take a 3/32" deep pass in a 16" wide hard maple board with no trouble whatsoever with that machine - no tear out, quiet enough to talk over. Try that in a comparable machine with a straight knife head. 

I also have a DW 735 with the stock head in it. It's easily twice as loud as its 900 lb counterpart, and the knives DeWalt sells for it are garbage. 20 bf of hard maple thru it and they are knicked up. But like Ryan said, with new knives & light cuts it leaves the nicest finish of any planer I've ever used. 

I always finish with a smoothing plane or sandpaper anyway though, so the spiral head gets my vote. FAR superior to a conventional head IMO


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

wericha said:


> Since I own and use a helical head planer, jointer, and shaper cutters as well as traditional straight knife equipment I'll jump in here for a minute......
> 
> The pictures posted earlier were *NOT* indicative of wood planed by properly set up and operated planers. If that was the best I could expect from my equipment I'd dump it in a heartbeat. Scalloping, whether from a straight knife planer or helical head, comes from a couple of problems. Either the knives are not properly set or the feed rate is too high. Our helical head equipment gives a much better finish, and the knives are far more durable.
> 
> Is the stripe you're seeing something new or has the planer always done it?


I don't own a spiral head machine, but my straight knife delta will do much better than the picture posted earlier. I think the op just bought his first spiral head planer.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I have a Delta jointer and a delta planer. Both came with straight knives and I have since changed both over to Byrd Shelix heads. The first to switch was the jointer because I hated setting knives. More recently (just this past year), I switched the planer to the Shelix head. After reading this post with great interest, I just planed a piece of hard maple. I don't see anything but smooth. No stripes and no scallops. Do keep in mind that this head is fairly new and I rekon the cutters are still smokin' sharp, but I'd call the cut exceptional. 

For the record, I have no relationship to Byrd Tool other than I love the two cutters and the customer service I've gotten from them has been great. (Both cutters were purchased directly from them)


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Here is a picture of wood planed in my delta.






Here is wood sanded in my drum sander.






Here is why I always use my drum sander for finishing work. tear out.


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

^^^^^ the grain tearout in that picture is why I love the spiral head. Hickory, hard maple, curly maple, mahogany, cherry -- zero tearout.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

wericha said:


> Since I own and use a helical head planer, jointer, and shaper cutters as well as traditional straight knife equipment I'll jump in here for a minute......
> 
> The pictures posted earlier were *NOT* indicative of wood planed by properly set up and operated planers. If that was the best I could expect from my equipment I'd dump it in a heartbeat. Scalloping, whether from a straight knife planer or helical head, comes from a couple of problems. Either the knives are not properly set or the feed rate is too high. Our helical head equipment gives a much better finish, and the knives are far more durable.
> 
> Is the stripe you're seeing something new or has the planer always done it?


For the record, the pictures above are not mine. Go to "my photos" under the original post to see what I am talking about. Yes this machine has always done this but I didn't have a real objection with it until it started messing with my cherry trim.The cutters have been cleaned, seats wire brushed, screw properly oiled and torqued to factory specs. The individual cutters actually have a deeper cut on one side when in operation. This is consistent across the majority of the cutterhead. My major problem being the uneven striping that you have to sand out. With these highly machined cutter heads and carbide inserts it should be a light sanding and you're good to go, not buy a drum sander to back up the planer.
I have found a solution to the poor cut. Why in the heck do we have to pay good money for foreign (equipment) that you have to tinker with to make it work right. Some made in the USA equipment would be great. Quality seems to be an option that is unavailable at any cost. 
Bottom line! This planer is going down the road.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Bzawat would your spiral need less sanding than the drum sander board? I just can't justify spending more on a cutter head than my planer cost. I don't know how much life is left in my bench top planer anyway.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

BZawat said:


> I have a Grizzly 0544 that has the Griz spiral head in it. It leaves some stripes in the planed surface, but it is certainly equivalent to the machine marks left by standard straight knife cutterheads in the same class of machine. Nothing that doesn't sand out with regular sanding. A planer is not a finishing tool, it is a dimensioning tool. No matter what type of head you use, there will usually be some machine marks to sand out.
> 
> That said, I can take a 3/32" deep pass in a 16" wide hard maple board with no trouble whatsoever with that machine - no tear out, quiet enough to talk over. Try that in a comparable machine with a straight knife head.
> 
> ...


 You state you have a Griz spiral head. Is it in fact the GRIZ spiral head, or the Griz German spiral head or the Byrd spiral head. All three are in these planers I have been told. I'm interested in which one works so wonderful that you have zero tear out. I may be a nubie, but that is hard to believe. I evidently got the wrong cutter in mine.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The first time I saw a spiral head I couldn't believe it. I thought there is no way all those little knives could be aligned to where it would cut right. Then I starting reading reviews saying the same thing. I don't know just how much quieter the spiral head is suppose to be but I bought a antique 24" planer last year that weighed 2 tons. It surfaces a 24" wide board a lot quieter than my little Delta planer can surface a 12" wide board. Both planers have standard heads. You can stand next to it and carry on a conversation with someone while it is surfacing. I guess all the cast iron dampen the noise.



Steve, your first two sentences say it all. How true.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never used a spiral head. Everything I've read about them it is normal for them to leave scallop streaks on the wood as it is surfaced.



Talked to a knowledgeable guy in the industry today. He said the same thing. 
Quote from my woodworking partner, "We went from sanding out cross ways imperfections from a knife planer to spending the big bucks and sanding out length ways imperfections from a spiral cut planer?"


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Woodchips a plenty said:


> Talked to a knowledgeable guy in the industry today. He said the same thing.
> Quote from my woodworking partner, "We went from sanding out cross ways imperfections from a knife planer to spending the big bucks and sanding out length ways imperfections from a spiral cut planer?"


Even if a spiral head doesn't leave a perfect sand free finish. It still has less tear out than straight knifes.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> If it is a grizzly, they said the rubber had to much give and didn't leave boards flat. I have a jet 1632 the paper never comes loose, even with 36 grit. I use my jet a lot. Since I got it I hardly ever use my planer.


Found some things out about adjustments and set-up on the 25" 2 drum griz today. Unnamed reliable source, "read between the lines" gave me some pointers. Try to find those in the manual.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Even if a spiral head doesn't leave a perfect sand free finish. It still has less tear out than straight knifes.



YEP! I gotta give you that one. No argument. But keep that (less tear out) as a qualifier. I still have tear out occasionally, and tear outs on the last pass angers the woodworker.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You didn't really think a spiral head would leave a sand free finish did you? If they did every woodworker would have one, and all sander, and sand paper manufactures would go out of business.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't think there would be a issue if they didn't advertise it as giving a glass like finish. They should just advertise it as being quieter and less tearout. 

Myself, I'm satisfied with the straight knives. I don't get much tearout and until I bought a Newman planer wore ear muffs for the noise.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

in reference to post 47


Nope! Not that dumb. But it sure could be a lot better than this thing puts out before I found the magic cure. Ask any old farmer about dressing the knives on an old new holland 800 chopper.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't think there would be a issue if they didn't advertise it as giving a glass like finish. They should just advertise it as being quieter and less tearout.
> 
> Myself, I'm satisfied with the straight knives. I don't get much tearout and until I bought a Newman planer wore ear muffs for the noise.


That's what I'm talking about Steve. And damn pissed that I spent the money and got junk and the poor quality of the wood coming out of it. I got the just like glass and hold a normal conversation beside it spiel right there on the Grizzly showroom floor in Pa. Also when I asked about the difference between spiral cut and the Byrd spiral cut performance, I was told that they had both set up side by side in the demo room a while ago and that there was no difference. That was his opinion I imagine.
My definition of as smooth as glass on a 4" trim board means down and back with 150 grit on a RO and down and back twice with 220 on a quarter sheet sander. My current output from the planer requires down and back 5 or 6 times with 100 grit on a RO to remove planer marks or take it to the drum sander. Needless work if the machine did as advertised. Never believe a salesman.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

1234


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> You didn't really think a spiral head would leave a sand free finish did you? If they did every woodworker would have one, and all sander, and sand paper manufactures would go out of business.


Would that be in Japan, Korea, Taiwan or China?


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Woodchips a plenty said:


> You state you have a Griz spiral head. Is it in fact the GRIZ spiral head, or the Griz German spiral head or the Byrd spiral head. All three are in these planers I have been told. I'm interested in which one works so wonderful that you have zero tear out. I may be a nubie, but that is hard to believe. I evidently got the wrong cutter in mine.



Believe what you want bud, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just sharing my personal experience. My planer has the German grizzly spiral head in it. Boards come out of the planer, hit with 150 grit on a DA sander, and are ready for finish. 

Maybe there something you're missing as far as setup goes? Also we are talking about two entirely different classes of machines here. You running a Byrd head in a 735, correct?

Edit: sorry just re-read your original post, see that it's a G0454.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Woodchips a plenty said:


> Trying to get a good planing job on cherry wood with a Grizzly G0454Z planer with the German spiral cut head. I am getting length way stripes about the width of the cutter inserts. They will sand out but why should you have to do that?
> When I take a flashlight in a dim lighted room and shine it across the face of the board, I can see distinct cutter insert marks (hence the lenthways stripes. The spiral head is not cutting evenly across the width of the board.
> Spent yesterday and today tearing the machine down, replacing cutterhead bearings, rotating the cutter inserts and fine tuning all specified settings with a dial indicator. NO CHANGE.
> Is this just the nature of these spiral cutters? Has anyone else had this problem also? I would like to go back to a knife machine after this.
> ...


Kevin

Sorry to hear of your problems. This is the first time I've heard someone complain about these types of heads. Your discontent is one of the reasons I haven't bought one. If its leaving stripes long ways. it would only need one cutter to be "out" in every other row, so to speak. Have you tried swapping the cutters side ways To see if the stripes move? Seems like a cutter head problem and not the machine. I'd ask for another head. Sorry if this has been covered. 

Also I would add. I've chased thousandths only to realize I didn't have a system capable of giving me accurate numbers.

Al


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## billrlogan (Feb 15, 2014)

Have you checked any of the blades on the head? One or more of them may need turned or changed.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Removed unnecessary comments.


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## Woodchips a plenty (Apr 4, 2014)

BZawat said:


> Believe what you want bud, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just sharing my personal experience. My planer has the German grizzly spiral head in it. Boards come out of the planer, hit with 150 grit on a DA sander, and are ready for finish.
> 
> Maybe there something you're missing as far as setup goes? Also we are talking about two entirely different classes of machines here. You running a Byrd head in a 735, correct?
> 
> Edit: sorry just re-read your original post, see that it's a G0454.


Thanks for the response BZawat. This is where I'm coming from. I have the same cutter as you, so why can't I get the same results? Went over set up, cutter rotations and operation with a tech and he says everything is done right. This is starting to lead me to the conclusion that the head itself is off some how. Bought my planer about 2 1/2 years ago and probably less than 50 hours on it. Cherry really shows the problem. Harder woods not so much.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What's to be done now? Have you called Grizzly and asked them why the spiral head is leaving the marks? While I think any of their heads make the marks it may be the one you got was a lemon and leaving more distinct marks than their standards. In the end if they can't satisfy you, you might see if you can send the head back and get your money back.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

We have a SCMI Sandya 16S with a 52" spiral cutter at work and a powermatic with spiral cutters. Personally I think the powermatic makes more noise running than the Sandya does. The sandya planes pretty smooth and the Powermatic joints excellent.

Your cutters aren't on correctly or theres a defect somewhere....


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> What's to be done now? Have you called Grizzly and asked them why the spiral head is leaving the marks? While I think any of their heads make the marks it may be the one you got was a lemon and leaving more distinct marks than their standards. In the end if they can't satisfy you, you might see if you can send the head back and get your money back.




Steve, sending the head back will not be an option for him, because it is the stock head in that particular planer. Unless of course you can prove to grizzly that the head is in fact defective, which may be a difficult task.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

the possibility also exists that the cutters are at fault. At the very least, I think grizzly should send you a brand new set of cutter to install and see if the problem is better, changed, etc. i know new cutters always improve our cuts. 

sorry if this was already done and i missed it.


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