# Any trick to make this joint?



## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

When I build cabinets I generally use plywood. To finish the exposed edges I sometimes use beaded molding and wonder if you guys might have a trick to make this joint. The picture shows the joint I want to make. Think of the upright as the leg of the cab and the horizontal piece a shelf. I know I could miter say the top and run the bottom vertical leg straight across but I would like to have this all fit so all the lines flow. The drawing might not be perfect but I think it should suffice to show the issue. 3/4" plywood - 3/4" molding thats about 1/8" thick.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If the leading edge moulding is only 1/8" thick, you could just knife your lines and smack with a mallet and a sharp chisel. Dress with a file to fit if necessary. I know... sounds too basic.


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

Interesting approach but The vertical piece it wouldn't work. I believe the chisel would crack the molding as it wouldn't be going all the way across. Might work fine on the horizontal though.
What I was hoping for was some sort of jig or idea on how accomplish this on a TS. Quick and fool proof. I have a hard enough time just getting the vertical piece miters centered on the molding. I know there must be a trick to hit dead center on both miters.


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## MrRodeoCC (Mar 15, 2008)

Router with a v-groove bit and a straight edge for the vertical panel. table saw with blade tilted to 45 for the horizontal panel.


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

MrRodeoCC said:


> Router with a v-groove bit and a straight edge for the vertical panel.


Please explain.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

MinConst said:


> Interesting approach but The vertical piece it wouldn't work. I believe the chisel would crack the molding as it wouldn't be going all the way across. Might work fine on the horizontal though.



Paul

For veneers that are 1/40" to 1/16", either all wood or paper backed, I would use a knife cut. For veneers thicker, like you mentioned 1/8", I would *knife mark*, and use the flat of the chisel on the saved side. If your chisel is sharp, it may take a few taps, but starting the "V" lightly will give a clean cut and not break through. You should back up the veneer with some stable substrate to eliminate the chisel from going too deep. You want the cutting force into the wood and not be transmitted to what's under it. 

Take some scrap samples and experiment. Another method would be to use a good DT/backsaw with more that 15 TPI. That's more fail safe on heavier veneers and solid wood. The 1/8" thicknesss is kinda in between.

I do get a kick out of the handwork though.


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## MrRodeoCC (Mar 15, 2008)

MinConst said:


> Please explain.


Router with a v-groove bit and a straight edge for the vertical panel. table saw with blade tilted to 45 for the horizontal panel.


LOL, I don't know what the F%?K I was thinking when I wrote that, I've read it and read it trying to figure out what I was trying to say. It would work for making shelves but it wouldn't be the best support a dado groove would be best. The face trim on the outside escaped my thoughts somehow. Sorry for any confusion.


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

*The level of detail required here*

will never be fully appreciated by anyone other than you. I do not think that the liability here is worth the effort. My opinion.

Ed


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I would not use that joint, and I don't understand why you want to.


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> I would not use that joint, and I don't understand why you want to.


Just to dress it up some. Butt joints just look like butt joints. They are OK but I would like a more finished look.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

It would take a little hand and chisel work, but you could use both a dado and that v groove. The v groove would be just the front of the joint and behind it would be the dado. I have never cut that exact joint, but I have cut through tenons, a fairly complex scarf joint, and a blind double tenon joint when I installed the timber framing members in my home that were infinitely harder than it would be to do what i am suggesting.

I just think using that v groove the full length is a bad idea and you'll never get it to look good IMO even though no one is going to stick their head in the cabinet and say "Man why did you try and use a joint that wants to push the sides apart by design?


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

Texas,
I don't think you understand the piece I am talking about. It is not to attach a shelf to the side. Or fasten 3/4" to 3/4". It is only to finish the exposed edges of 3/4" plywood. Instead of using edge veneer.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Ah. You are correct I didn't get it. My apologies.


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## rick4u2000 (Nov 27, 2006)

If I were attempting to make that joint, I would use the table saw with the blade set at 45 using the miter gauge with a sacrificial fence that would run out past the blade to prevent tear out. Run one side, then flip it over, run the other side. I would cut the shelf pieces first then mark the uprights The blade height would have to be adjusted 

It the only way I think I could get it done. Im pretty sure I saw Norm from new yankee do the exact same thing on an episode


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

rick you made the same error I did. You scanned the post instead of reading it. :shifty:


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## rick4u2000 (Nov 27, 2006)

OOps! :laughing:


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## MrRodeoCC (Mar 15, 2008)

LOL, Ya'll did the same thing I did, LOL, it didn't sink in that he was just trying to face the plywood edges. I've pondered this over a lot trying to find a way to cut that profile accurately and repetitively without luck. A custom chisel in the shape with a matching opposite is a thought, one beveled inside one beveled outside both 90 degree angles. That would give a smooth cut and they should match consistently. I hope this makes sense.


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## TheStairguy (Mar 25, 2008)

I know I'm new to the program here and I don't want to talk out of school. What I would do is put the entire project together and face the edges later. After the cabinet is together take your beaded molding and line it up on your plywood edge, mark the thickness of the horizontal shelf with a knife. Take the molding and cut the 45 with your miter saw. This is assuming that your miter box is bi-sexual and tilts both ways. Yes this sounds hazardous, however if you put a spoil board across the throat of the miter saw to span the gap and clamp the molding tight to the spoil board by hooking the clamp over the fence and securing the molding it will work. Ideally you should have the female of the molding to properly clamp it tight to the fence. Taking a scrap piece of wood and running a groove with your table saw to have it fit over top of your beaded molding should work. Cut your 45's carefully then apply the molding to the vertical edge. Make sure the "V" lines up with the shelf. A micro pinner some good glue and tape to clamp down the molding will work. Use a really sharp paint scraper to gently clean off the excess glue and any over hanging wood on both sides of the molding. Do this before the glue gets too hard and it will clean up great. Next cut some paper backed veneer with a "V" on it and apply it to the horizontal edge with contact cement. Some really cool stuff called Stay Putt is contact cement in a spray can and the sh#%t works awesome. Remember to tape the faces of the horizontal pieces so you don't get excess glue on your work. The veneer and the edges need to be coated twice. Wait until the glue is perfectly dry and then apply the veneer. Be careful, once this stuff touches down that's it. After the veneer is applied rub hard over the veneer with a piece of wood and lightly sand. Trim the edges with a sheet rock knife and lightly sand the edges. Hope this helps. ROLe.:thumbsup:


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

Stairguy,
Are you saying to cut the vertical piece on the miter saw and not run through it all the way? I use a compound miter saw that has a depth stop but it isn't all that precise of a stop. And then why use a paper backed veneer as this is what I'm trying to do without. I do use veneer on some jobs but some I like the look of the beaded on all the faces.
Thanks for the input. I will have to read your post more and see if I can pick out exactly what your saying about the vertical piece. It might help.


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## Canadian Woodtick (Mar 29, 2008)

*Moldings*

Oops, I thought you were going to use veneer on the horizontal. You don't need a stop, just watch that you don't go to far and make sure you put it into a bed of some kind (See picture). Cut a female "V" only halfway through the vertical beaded molding. Look to the diagram to see why. Take another portion of bead mold for the horizontal and cut a female version of the "V" and match it up. Notice that the half portions of the horizontal bead miter lines up with the vertical bead. It will make no difference what width the moldings are as long as they are the same width. This is delicate and tedious work but once mastered it will look awesome. :thumbsup: 




Sorry for the crappy drawing but I hope it gets the message across.:wallbash:


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## johnjf0622 (Feb 8, 2008)

wow this is the first thread I have read where I have no idea where I lost it. I was hanging in there foe a while then it was like it all went blank. I'll try reading it again when my head stops hurting. lol


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

How about one of those spring loaded corner chisels you use to square up the corners of a mortise created by a router tool. Or an actual corner chisel (pricier). Both are simply lined up with your pencil marks and wallopped with a mallet (malay, that french word for hammer).

Ed


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

It's good to see this thread come back to life. Still looking for the "Trick" or simple saw set method to make it quick and fool proof. Keep them coming guys.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

MinConst said:


> It's good to see this thread come back to life. Still looking for the "Trick" or simple saw set method to make it quick and fool proof. Keep them coming guys.



In all actuality, that particular joint traditionally would visually be just a butt joint where the shelf would butt the vertical.


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

cabinetman said:


> In all actuality, that particular joint traditionally would visually be just a butt joint where the shelf would butt the vertical.


 Yes I know. A butt joint is how I've been doing them. I just want to make it a little more refined.


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## TS3660 (Mar 4, 2008)

I don't get it. Where's the joint? Where's the rest of this thread?


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## MinConst (Oct 30, 2006)

TS this is page 2 of the thread. At the bottom right of this message or the last one in the thread you will see a < 1 2 click on the 1 for the first page of this thread.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

_What we have hee-yah, is a fay-yuh ta comm-yunicate. _


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## clampman (Oct 20, 2006)

You could try either a metal cutting counter sink or a "center drill" in a router. You'd need to either use a router table with a sled or make up a jig to insert your edge molding into (on edge) then run the router across the jig.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=196&PMCTLG=00

Both center drills and counter sinks come in a variety of angles, shank sizes and cutting diameters. Make sure you get a 90 degree cutting angle if you want to try it. And make sure it is right hand cutting and not left hand, especially if you like the looks of the center drills better. If it does not say, then it is right hand cutting.

Hovering over the MSC order number with the mouse will bring up a little window with text big enough to read.

I'd probably try the aircraft type 3 flute first. It probably has a more aggresive cutting angle than those designed for cutting steel. It's also cheap being HSS (high speed steel) If it works well, and you are doing enough of them, you could buy a cobalt one which will resist heat better than HSS. Cutting wood causes more heat than cutting steel (at the right feeds and speeds for the application).

Use in your lowest RPM router.

Check the pages before and after the one linked to for more options. If the link doesn't work go to page 196

Let us know the outcome!! Posting a thread for advice is a two way street.

cheers,
Jim


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## Terryfitz (Aug 22, 2008)

After figuring out what it is you want to do, I agree with Cabinetman's first post. Very carefully use a knife and chisel. Too simplistic? Maybe, but the set-up time and chance of error using power tools is too great in my opinion. The fact is that I have had to make this joint on several occasions and had no problem with either time or quality after practicing it a few times. By and by, someone mentioned Norm from Yankee Workshop? Bless his heart and I would work with him any day of the week, but I remember him and Tommy saying how great it was to use biscuits for normal 2-1/4" casing around a door. You can make something too complicated by far.


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## Shamus (Aug 22, 2008)

I do a lot of repair on furniture. Specifically, old veneer. There are as many ways to cut and match as there are people doing it. The way I was taught was to cut what you need on a scroll-saw with a fine blade. I have a miter gauge on mine that will allow me to cut the 45's your attempting. Short of that I'd use a Veneer saw in a jig. 










Just my 2¢

Richard


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## formula462 (Dec 9, 2006)

i agree with shamus,a schroll, band or handsaw will do what you want with great results.


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## Chris_Old_House (Sep 27, 2008)

*Use a chamfer bit*

If I understand what you are doing:
You have bead molding that you want to cut a "V" into the edge, not the face or back, of the molding so that the shelf channel is exposed and you can slide the shelf in and out or just look good; either way. Do I have it?

If so I think you can set up a jig with a router and a grooving bit to get this effect. You could then cut multiple strips of molding at one time for mass production. I did something like this for a bottle rack I created were I had to cut about 30 channels. You can buy grooving bits in several different angles and types to match the angle you are cutting your shelf edge to.

Chris


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## Roy Harding (Jun 8, 2008)

Just cope it. Basically, a butt joint, with a coped edge - which blends in the joint, rendering it as minimally apparent.


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## Jeekinz (Apr 18, 2007)

Measure out a few pieces of stock then stack them together so you can make one pass through multiple pieces. Use a v-groove blade in a moulding head on a radial arm saw. The cut will be perfectly verticle and straight and there's no need to re-adjust for multiple cuts. Use a sacrificial piece in the back to prevent tearout and a stop block if the cuts will be in the same location. You can use the same molding head in a table saw for other projects.

You would use cutter #1144.

Moulding Head Cutter

Oh yeah, I like that idea alot.


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