# Standard size or trim



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm going to be edge banding a few miles of 3/4"X 1/2" walnut to 36 sheets of plywood cut down and made into 4 walk in closets. Lots of edges. My question to all my buddies...

Would you use a full size router or a trim router to flush up the wood? I bought a 3 fluted bit. Is this a good idea or not? With the veneer only a micro inch thick. It looks like I'm going to be in for a lot of work. I just don't normally work with plywood and never on this scale. So I'm probably not going to be using my hand tools.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

If your doing that much, I'd make a small jig to keep the trim router parallel to the wood and use that.


----------



## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

*That's a Lot of Work for a Trim Router*

I would use a full size router with a jig/base to hold it correctly. :smile:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> If your doing that much, I'd make a small jig to keep the trim router parallel to the wood and use that.


I was thinking the same. The wood is only wider than the plywood by an amount you can only feel. Trim router?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mdntrdr said:


> I would use a full size router with a jig/base to hold it correctly. :smile:


Can I buy a "jig"base without having to build it. Time is a big factor.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

My concern is mainly for making a cut in the plywood that requires me to pitch it and make another. If a smaller router will be better for staying on the level. I don't much care if it's life is shortened.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi Al - which router may depend on which bit you purchased. Most trim routers will only take 1/4" shank although my Trend also took 6 and 8mm shanks. 
Your edge guide could serve as a jig. Most are cut out to where you can use them to flush cut. Adding a bearinged bit would just be some added insurance. 
The edge guide could also be augmented to make for longer "legs" which would help stabilize the thing. Just add a couple of pieces of mdf or something to extend the edge guide further down the stock. Could be hot glued, double faced tape or even screwed on.:smile:
A decent trim router should handle something like that with no sweat. My Colt would be my weapon of choice for that job, very light and easy to handle with more than enough power.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

What are the sizes of the panels to be edged?








 







.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jschaben said:


> Hi Al - which router may depend on which bit you purchased. Most trim routers will only take 1/4" shank although my Trend also took 6 and 8mm shanks.
> Your edge guide could serve as a jig. Most are cut out to where you can use them to flush cut. Adding a bearinged bit would just be some added insurance.
> The edge guide could also be augmented to make for longer "legs" which would help stabilize the thing. Just add a couple of pieces of mdf or something to extend the edge guide further down the stock. Could be hot glued, double faced tape or even screwed on.:smile:
> A decent trim router should handle something like that with no sweat. My Colt would be my weapon of choice for that job, very light and easy to handle with more than enough power.


Now your cookin with gas. 

I posted in my first post I had in fact picked up a triple flute flush bit with a bearing. Tried making the cuts with my 690. Too big too heavy. I'm only trimming a micro inch so maybe I'll get the Colt. Do you like the fine adjust?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*a hand held trimmer may be just as fast*

Like these: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...=aps&hvadid=3481911973&ref=pd_sl_2z88dlmc4p_e

this one from Rockler looks good:
http://www.rockler.com/double-edge-trimmer


----------



## Trav (May 30, 2011)

If you are using commercially available edge banding (the kind that comes in a roll), I would use a trimmer like woodsnthings suggested. I have a couple but the one I really like had a blade with a single bevel. I find I have better results with it. 

If you are using thin solid stick for edge banding I would flush one side perfect when I glued it up so that I would only have to contend with one long side. Then use a flush trim with a bottom bearing bit in a small router. (I have a colt and love it for stuff like this). Build a jig for the base plate to keep it flat. Also with solid wood Depending on the tolerances of the band it my be possible to sand it flat as well

Good luck.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

I've got the Colt and it would be my tool of choice. You could attach an L-shaped plate to the bottom and do something like this:


----------



## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

+1 for the Rockler trimmer.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> What are the sizes of the panels to be edged?


Asking again.

















.


​
​


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Ttharp said:


> If you are using commercially available edge banding (the kind that comes in a roll), I would use a trimmer like woodsnthings suggested. I have a couple but the one I really like had a blade with a single bevel. I find I have better results with it.
> 
> If you are using thin solid stick for edge banding I would flush one side perfect when I glued it up so that I would only have to contend with one long side. Then use a flush trim with a bottom bearing bit in a small router. (I have a colt and love it for stuff like this). Build a jig for the base plate to keep it flat. Also with solid wood Depending on the tolerances of the band it my be possible to sand it flat as well
> 
> Good luck.


The edge bands are 3/4" thick. I've got to use a router. Many of you are sporting the Colt. I picked it up in the box store. But was unsure the micro adjustments would be accurate or hit and miss. Sanding is out of the question. The veneer is just too thin to risk. And I've got miles of this stuff to lay.

I'm building 4 units. Two per walk in closet. They are all 8' high 2' deep and lengths are 13' 10' 11' and 8'. Those are just in the master suit. There are 4 more smaller closets and an pantry. All in walnut. 

All the units are made to NOT look like California Closets. Sparing no expenses. No shelves with shelf pins. All the shelves have been determined and dadoed into place. Drawers and hampers. It's a great project and I almost never take on work for pay but they hated everything the closet companies wanted to sell them. 

Thanks for your post. Tell me about your Colt.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> I've got the Colt and it would be my tool of choice. You could attach an L-shaped plate to the bottom and do something like this:


Julie
After I started this thread I started looking on the net. Saw the Fe$tool and thought it was a good idea too. Especially since their router is long and tall. I looked up the price and thought I could hire someone to build it for me cheaper.  If I did a lot of this I might invest in one. Also if your hooking it up to their super vac. It would be hard to hold on line with anything less. 

All these years in woodworking and I've only done a little edge banding. Now I'm up to my neck in it. Do you like the way the Colt micro adjusts? Thanks for your post. I like the way you think.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

The few times I've done it, I just trimmed it with a block plane. Goes fast, it's quiet and you have control.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Zircon said:


> The few times I've done it, I just trimmed it with a block plane. Goes fast, it's quiet and you have control.


Yes I could do that too. I usually do as I don't own a trim router yet. And I am still using my cabinet scraper. But the pieces are 24" X 96". Sections 48" long. Miles of it. It's walnut and it's grain is wild on some of it. I don't have the time. 

Thanks for your post
Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## kelsochris (Aug 15, 2013)

You could clamp two panels together with a spacer between them then rout the edges with a flush trimming bit. You would want the panels to be set level of course but that way you would have an extra bearing surface for the base of the router to travel on. You could probably trim all four sides on the two pieces in one set up.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> What are the sizes of the panels to be edged?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try reading the first post. Laughing laughing laughing.

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the other concern is damage*

You can trim the panels vertically on one edge and then if you flip it to the other side it may damage the first one. You can trim all the edges horizontally all the way around with no damage potential, then stack them. Any transport mishaps will also damage the fragile edging. 
Things to consider. 
Can you site build and trim them?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

You don't seem to want to address my question, but I gathered from some of your responses about the sizes. Using a preglued (hot glue) wood edging would be a lot easier and faster. Many poo poo the durability of that type of edging, but it's pretty darn good if applied and filed properly.

If you desire to apply solid wood edging, make sure the plywood edge and the mating wood edge surfaces are flat. Once you glue and clamp them on, set up a way to clamp them so the edges are horizontal (facing up). You need to rout them that way to control the router. A trim router works just fine. Any final sanding can be done with a scraper, and 180x sandpaper and a block.

The face that the router base rides on has to be parallel to the plywood edge, or there is the possibility of the bit shearing off face veneer.

The bit should be lowered so the bearing is just below the edge of the plywood. If the bit is extended too low on the plywood, that provides the opportunity for the bit to cut into the face of the plywood due to the length of the bit and any tipping of the router.


















.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

kelsochris said:


> You could clamp two panels together with a spacer between them then rout the edges with a flush trimming bit. You would want the panels to be set level of course but that way you would have an extra bearing surface for the base of the router to travel on. You could probably trim all four sides on the two pieces in one set up.


I thought about doing that too but too time consuming trying to get two 8' panels to line up. Probably couldn't. 

Thanks for your post

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> You don't seem to want to address my question, but I gathered from some of your responses about the sizes. Using a preglued (hot glue) wood edging would be a lot easier and faster. Many poo poo the durability of that type of edging, but it's pretty darn good if applied and filed properly.
> 
> If you desire to apply solid wood edging, make sure the plywood edge and the mating wood edge surfaces are flat. Once you glue and clamp them on, set up a way to clamp them so the edges are horizontal (facing up). You need to rout them that way to control the router. A trim router works just fine. Any final sanding can be done with a scraper, and 180x sandpaper and a block.
> 
> ...


Oh your catching on.

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Julie
> After I started this thread I started looking on the net. Saw the Fe$tool and thought it was a good idea too. Especially since their router is long and tall. I looked up the price and thought I could hire someone to build it for me cheaper.  If I did a lot of this I might invest in one. Also if your hooking it up to their super vac. It would be hard to hold on line with anything less.
> 
> All these years in woodworking and I've only done a little edge banding. Now I'm up to my neck in it. Do you like the way the Colt micro adjusts? Thanks for your post. I like the way you think.
> ...


No, I do NOT like the way the Colt adjusts! There's a thumb wheel that can bind if the body is too snug in the bracket. If it's too loose, it won't hold the body in place. 

But the Colt is easy to handle and I could see modifying it with a L-bracket to accomplish the job you want it to do. DeWalt would probably accomplish the same in that respect and I'm pretty sure DeWalt has LED lighting so you can see what you're doing (if you are using it for detail work). 

That said, I'd suggest looking closely at each mini-router and checking everything out to see what you like. I have the Colt kit that I bought just when it came out. It had great reviews.  I find I use it most with the optional plunge base. The other bases in the kit are all fine but I can't see how any would help your situation so maybe the kit would be a waste of money for you. If I had to do it over again, I'd look really hard at DeWalt.

I think the most important factor here is the L-bracket. Once you have something designed and made up that works, the type of router you buy for it will depend more on anticipated use in the future than the specific use for this project. It seems to me keeping the router from rocking on the edge is the critical factor here.

Now this may be where you don't like my thinking. If I had the work before me you have, I'd buy the Festool trim router, cry really hard, then enjoy everything it can do until I die. :smile:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> No, I do NOT like the way the Colt adjusts! There's a thumb wheel that can bind if the body is too snug in the bracket. If it's too loose, it won't hold the body in place.
> 
> But the Colt is easy to handle and I could see modifying it with a L-bracket to accomplish the job you want it to do. DeWalt would probably accomplish the same in that respect and I'm pretty sure DeWalt has LED lighting so you can see what you're doing (if you are using it for detail work).
> 
> ...


Julie
Thanks again for your honest post. Too late dear. After reading three posts with the word Colt in them I bought one. Actually two. I picked up the little Ridgid throw away too. I liked the features on the Ridgid and how light it is but I know it's not a work horse and may not be around for years. The Colt has the power to do many of the edging cuts I normally do with my PC 690. Also for this marathon job I got myself into I don't want to switch bits back and forth.

How did I ever live without these little buggers. 

Stop trying to push the "Fe$tool drugs". I'm sure if I picked up one I'd have to have them all.  But honestly their only sander I thought to by worked no better than my low profile Dewalt.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Well, hopefully Al, Bosch has improved that height adjustment issue I have with the Colt. But really, you need to take everything back and spend a few grand on some nice Fe*$$$*tool products. :laughing:

If you design that L-bracket I had envisioned, post a pic here and let us know how it works. That's about the only job the Colt kit doesn't cover.

Happy edge routing!


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Well, hopefully Al, Bosch has improved that height adjustment issue I have with the Colt. But really, you need to take everything back and spend a few grand on some nice Fe$$$tool products. :laughing:
> 
> If you design that L-bracket I had envisioned, post a pic here and let us know how it works. That's about the only job the Colt kit doesn't cover.
> 
> Happy edge routing!


Here is a glimpse at the project. This is a quarter of the panels.









Here are the panels at glue up. Some flush to the top, some to the bottom, some to both.

I have a ton of clamps but these are faster and lighter. 

I'm going to make the L bracket and showcase it.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Here is the quick version for the L bracket. I think I'm going to make another one out of aluminum when I get some time.









I removed two of the base plate screws and hot footed it down to the blue box store and obtained some longer screws with the same threads to mount it. No more wobble. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Nice! :thumbsup: Is that a strip of UHMW along one edge?

I was thinkng about making a metal one but all I have is those jaws that go in a vice. Any metal thick enough to hold the router at 90 degrees would be too much to bend with what I have. If you make the aluminum one, what would you use to bend the aluminum?


----------



## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> Here is the quick version for the L bracket.


That looks great! I see you allowed for the edging being proud of the surface. :thumbsup:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Nice! :thumbsup: Is that a strip of UHMW along one edge?
> 
> I was thinkng about making a metal one but all I have is those jaws that go in a vice. Any metal thick enough to hold the router at 90 degrees would be too much to bend with what I have. If you make the aluminum one, what would you use to bend the aluminum?


I didn't use the UHMW but it looks like it. It's just blond plywood with a flash from the pic.

To make it out of aluminum. I have some thick bar stock I was going to machine it from (carbide tip saw blades and router bits). To make the L, I will attach a 1/8" thick piece to it like I did the wood. Slightly oversize the hole for mounting and fine adjustment. The recess offset cut in the fence dictates how much can be shaved from the edge band. Any more than the offset and it will require more than one pass.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mdntrdr said:


> That looks great! I see you allowed for the edging being proud of the surface. :thumbsup:


Thanks. I just don't see how the cuts can be made without the aid of the bracket.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> Thanks. I just don't see how the cuts can be made without the aid of the bracket.


They can be made without a bracket and are done that way all the time by those that do this kind of work all the time. You likely ignored my previous post about how to position and fix the panels so both edges can be done, and two hands can control the router.


















.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> They can be made without a bracket and are done that way all the time by those that do this kind of work all the time. You likely ignored my previous post about how to position and fix the panels so both edges can be done, and two hands can control the router.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really don't care if you ever post another comment to one of my threads. You seem to have a bullish way of not following along. I've chosen to ignore you and have asked more than once that you do the same.

Al B Thayer

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> I really don't care if you ever post another comment to one of my threads. You seem to have a bullish way of not following along. I've chosen to ignore you and have asked more than once that you do the same.
> 
> Al B Thayer


Do what you please. You don't have to agree with my advice, or the way "I follow along" (I don't know what that means). There may be other members that may be interested for a similar project. 

















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*consider this simple method*


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVWKU_rhd_k


This might be a good solution. Right now I'm using a 3 fluted bit and it comes out really smooth and almost needs no sanding. With this micro thick veneer there isn't much there to sand if I mess it up.

Thanks
Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

That method would be a *long* series of trial and error using the Bosch Colt unless you had the optional plunge base. IMO, the worst feature on the Colt is depth adjustment.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> That method would be a long series of trial and error using the Bosch Colt unless you had the optional plunge base. IMO, the worst feature on the Colt is depth adjustment.


See my thread Bosch Trim Router Colt. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

I think if I were to use the method shown on the video, I'd be inclined to opt for the larger router anyway. :smile:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jschaben said:


> I think if I were to use the method shown on the video, I'd be inclined to opt for the larger router anyway. :smile:


I've given it a lot of thought. 
On one hand, I could use a full sized router.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the cuts will be as baby bottom smooth as I get with a triple fluted bit in the Colt.

But it would be far easier, but it's kind of free hand without a bearing or fence. Might be slower. Can't have that.

I've got to put a fence on it. 


Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> I've given it a lot of thought.
> On one hand, I could use a full sized router.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm not sure the cuts will be as baby bottom smooth as I get with a triple fluted bit in the Colt.
> ...


Actually Al, the way that is set up, the face of your stock is the fence. I don't see it as being "free hand" at all. The key would be in the extensive setup shown; using paper to test bit height and verifying on a test piece. The oversized mdf base alleviates any balance issues so a large router shouldn't be an issue. You should be able to get it pretty well dead bang, I've used similar methods to trim dowels where I'm not to confident that even the flush trim saw won't leave some marks. The only issue I could see is if you don't cut it down far enough on the first pass, the router could tip when the MDF base rides up on the remaining ridge. Shouldn't happen if the setup is done correctly. 
I'm not particularly confident in the Colt fixed base height setups myself. I know when I use it for hinge mortises, the first one takes some time to get set up. JMHO:smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That guide could use a small fence*

Without making one, which may be faster ...hah.. hah here's what I have in mind. It's just a 1/2" piece of MDF with a "V" shaped cut out in from one edge to beyond the cutter and some pins or blocks to prevent the cutter from traveling into the finished surface too far. This is a top down view. 

Of course great care must be taken to set the bit height correctly, but the paper method looks dirt simple to me.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Without making one, which may be faster ...hah.. hah here's what I have in mind. It's just a 1/2" piece of MDF with a "V" shaped cut out in from one edge to beyond the cutter and some pins or blocks to prevent the cutter from traveling into the finished surface too far. This is a top down view.
> 
> Of course great care must be taken to set the bit height correctly, but the paper method looks dirt simple to me.


Thats what I was thinking. Didn't his just glide back and forth all the way down the edge? I was thinking of having only one fence on the trailing end. 

I'm going to make it and use my PC 690. I'm going to take the Colt back. The cheaper Ridgid works better. I've got my eyes on that DeWalt you waved in my face a few posts ago. Unless Porter Cable makes it too.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I like the Dewalt*

I used it here on a radius slot for my table saw sled build:


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Without making one, which may be faster ...hah.. hah here's what I have in mind. It's just a 1/2" piece of MDF with a "V" shaped cut out in from one edge to beyond the cutter and some pins or blocks to prevent the cutter from traveling into the finished surface too far. This is a top down view.
> 
> Of course great care must be taken to set the bit height correctly, but the paper method looks dirt simple to me.


With all due respect woodn, I don't think that will work. My main issue is you have both legs of the V riding on the edge you are trying to cut down. The top surface on this job needs to be the reference, the edge you have the fences on is really immaterial. Watch the video again. The base he made for the router is open to the bit on one side and the front. This allows him to rotate the bit into the edge band and then continue smoothly down the workpiece. I don't see that as doable, at least easily, with what you have drawn. Just sayin


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I used it here on a radius slot for my table saw sled build:
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachments/f27/64584d1362352248-table-saw-sled-build-100_2400.jpg
> 
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachments/f27/64582d1362352216-table-saw-sled-build-100_2398.jpg http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachments/f27/64583d1362352216-table-saw-sled-build-100_2399.jpg


I've got one of those.









Not quite finished with it. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jschaben said:


> Actually Al, the way that is set up, the face of your stock is the fence. I don't see it as being "free hand" at all. The key would be in the extensive setup shown; using paper to test bit height and verifying on a test piece. The oversized mdf base alleviates any balance issues so a large router shouldn't be an issue. You should be able to get it pretty well dead bang, I've used similar methods to trim dowels where I'm not to confident that even the flush trim saw won't leave some marks. The only issue I could see is if you don't cut it down far enough on the first pass, the router could tip when the MDF base rides up on the remaining ridge. Shouldn't happen if the setup is done correctly.
> I'm not particularly confident in the Colt fixed base height setups myself. I know when I use it for hinge mortises, the first one takes some time to get set up. JMHO:smile:


I just looked at the video again. He's free hand cutting the whole way down. I would need something like Wooden has drawn but only one fence. I do think this will be a better method. 

I thought the Colt was going to fit in well but it lacks accuracy in two very important aspects.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I think you're correct*



jschaben said:


> With all due respect woodn, I don't think that will work. My main issue is you have both legs of the V riding on the edge you are trying to cut down. The top surface on this job needs to be the reference, the edge you have the fences on is really immaterial. Watch the video again. The base he made for the router is open to the bit on one side and the front. This allows him to rotate the bit into the edge band and then continue smoothly down the workpiece. I don't see that as doable, at least easily, with what you have drawn. Just sayin


The leading edge would ride on the raised portion of the banding and not sit flush.... unless there were a rabbet on the underside to allow it to sit flush, straddling the edge that sticks up. :yes:

OR just eliminate the left side leading edge all together and have the fence on the trailing edge as Al has suggested. I probably should have made one after all ...hah ...hah... :laughing:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The leading edge would ride on the raised portion of the banding and not sit flush.... unless there were a rabbet on the underside to allow it to sit flush, straddling the edge that sticks up. :yes:
> 
> OR just eliminate the left side leading edge all together and have the fence on the trailing edge as Al has suggested. I probably should have made one after all ...hah ...hah... :laughing:


I want to say thanks for posting this fixture. I've still got a zillion feet of edge to run. I'm going find some acrylic or some kind of plastic to make it from. I've got to cut the band down to slightly less than 3/4" so it will cut it in one pass. 3/4" mortice cutter looks to be the stile to use. Anyone know of a bit with flat cutting flutes across the bottom. I think it would make a smoother cut.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> I've still got a zillion feet of edge to run.


Well, if you can get it all done in a month... take advantage of Festool's 30-day, no questions asked, return policy and do this:





And when you're done, return it for a full refund. :whistling2:

(I know, I'm a real troublemaker. :yes


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Anyone know of a bit with flat cutting flutes across the bottom. I think it would make a smoother cut.
> 
> Al


Look for surface planing or dado bottom cleaning bits like these:
http://www.magnate.net/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PG136

I use them for planing extra paint off signs. There are several brands out there including some from Super Carbide Tools, an eBay vendor. There are actually several configurations with cutters along the bottom that would work for you; MLCS has plunge cutting straight bits, drawer lock bits have cutter along the bottom surface. A bowl bit may work well for you also as the radius edge would reduce the chances of a gouge.:smile:


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> just eliminate the left side leading edge all together and have the fence on the trailing edge as Al has suggested. I probably should have made one after all ...hah ...hah... :laughing:


I'm still not convinced of the value of a fence, any fence, along that edge, seems like it would just complicate the handling of the router. JMHO:smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK, then*



jschaben said:


> I'm still not convinced of the value of a fence, any fence, along that edge, seems like it would just complicate the handling of the router. JMHO:smile:


You make one without a fence, and I'll make one with a dado underneath. 
We'll compare results here. OK?
Otherwise it's just "theory". We need empricial evidence. :laughing:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ok, got mine done....*

It works as I expected.
I used a 3/4" wide dado on the underside to straddle the edge facing that protrudes up. As long as the router is set flush to the surrounding surface it works just fine. My hurry up git R Done setup was not "dead on", so it left a slight cut in the bench top surface, but that can be tuned out. I used the Dewalt trim router with the fixed base which has a "twist body" adjustment. It's a bit coarse but once it's dialed in there should not be an issue. I did NOT use the "paper under the base" technique for setting the height, just eye-balled it.

Steps are as follows. 
Remove the factory base and use it to trace the hole patterns.
Make a piece of 1/2" MDF for the base about 5" wide X 13" long.
Recess the holes on the bottom using a 3/8" Forstner bit for the screws to sit flush.
Drill out the large center hole to 1" dia.
Using a 1/2" dado bit in the router table make sufficient passes to create a dado at least 3/16" deep and what ever width you feel is adequate.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*previous post continued*

The quick and dirty results are satisfactory. I don't know if the dado is really "necessary" if you have your depth set dead on. You would need to remove the base material ahead of the cutter to allow it to sit flush as was done in the video. Once the edge banding is routed flush, then the base just rides along on top. The dado allows it to straddle the protruding edge from the start and retains it fore and aft to some degree until it's routed away. Kinda fool proof .... sorta.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> The quick and dirty results are satisfactory:


If both sides (outboard and inboard) of the bottom of the plate next to the dado are on the same plane, making a pass where the front part rides at all on the raised edge, the backside of the cut will be high.

This method is a free hand pass on the edge...not that easy to control especially after many passes.


















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*apparently you don't understand*

The dado allows the protruding edge to fit up side where the router bit removes all that is now flush with the surrounding surface and the base. Neither side of the base is "high"as you suggest. See in the photo where the cut has been stopped over the center nail? The right side is flush, the left side is still protruding.....


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*I Understand Just fine*

What I'm referring to is the bottom of the plate on the router...either side of the dado. If they are both on the same plane, if the right side (which I have indicated) rides at all on the edge, the left side will not be flat to the substrate.
.
































.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it works, that all I know*

I've explained all I care to. :yes:
If you don't think it will work, that's on you and you can make your own.
The proof is in the photos. As with any powertool usage care must be taken in the operation and the process. 

i


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I didn't ask you to explain. What you have there is basically just a larger base. Planning to run that base in line on the edge to line up with the groove you made, is all in hand control. That gets tiring pretty quick, especially since Al said he has a million miles to do.

You could just as easily used the router base on the router, and attached an edge guide, set up for a pass to cut near the substrate. If a second pass is needed just holding out the edge guide a ¼" or so is all you need.

If you go back to post #22, that method allows running the router along one edge and back up the other. You rout both edges without moving or flipping the piece. That might be too fast and too simple.


















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it works*

Here's why.
The protruding edge fits inside the dado acting as a guide. The router is restrained by the protruding edge fore and aft and can't move ... much. If the dado was the same width as the edge banding, plus a 1/16" it would be better. After the edge is routed off at the trailing edge, the base is free to move as it's no longer restrained. 
Don't believe me? I'm done explaining the obvious. :thumbdown:
If Al wants to use this method fine. 
Why don't you go out in your "shop" and make a better one of your own? 
Are you through hijacking this thread? just askin'


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

If I had miles to do and was to Spare no expense than I'd go this route

http://hoffmann-usa.com/machinery/hebor-edge-lipping-planer/bh-556-lipping-planer-mfg-by-hebor


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A fence has been added*

A simple adjustable fence is now added to the base making it virtually impossible to overtravel back into the primary surface. It's adjustable for different edge thicknesses as well. It works for me:


----------



## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

Since I first read your question I have been looking for the source of a foreign tool I saw at the Atlanta woodworking show several years ago. It was a very heavy tool that sat on the plywood and planed the edging flush. I cannot find it anywhere now. I did find a useful link for the Festool trim set up for you to look at. Here is that link...

http://www.halfinchshy.com/2010/10/routing-laying-down.html

I will continue to look for the other tool.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Well, if you can get it all done in a month... take advantage of Festool's 30-day, no questions asked, return policy and do this:
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlvchnW830
> 
> And when you're done, return it for a full refund. :whistling2:
> ...












LOL We don't need no $tinkin Fe$tool.

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*dang that looks familiar!*

Where did you find that?:blink:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jschaben said:


> I'm still not convinced of the value of a fence, any fence, along that edge, seems like it would just complicate the handling of the router. JMHO:smile:


We need the fence so we don't have to look at the cutter and go back and forth to cut a 3/4" wide edge band 3/4" router bit. 









I don't think I will make it this long but this one looks as good as the rest.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The quick and dirty results are satisfactory. I don't know if the dado is really "necessary" if you have your depth set dead on. You would need to remove the base material ahead of the cutter to allow it to sit flush as was done in the video. Once the edge banding is routed flush, then the base just rides along on top. The dado allows it to straddle the protruding edge from the start and retains it fore and aft to some degree until it's routed away. Kinda fool proof .... sorta.


Okay. I can see the need for the dado in the bottom but I like the one I posted too.

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The dado allows the protruding edge to fit up side where the router bit removes all that is now flush with the surrounding surface and the base. Neither side of the base is "high"as you suggest. See in the photo where the cut has been stopped over the center nail? The right side is flush, the left side is still protruding.....
> 
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachments/f2/83181d1384794873-standard-size-trim-100_2330.jpg


Is that bit flat across the bottom? Gota have a near finish cut. No time to sand much.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I've explained all I care to. :yes:
> If you don't think it will work, that's on you and you can make your own.
> The proof is in the photos. As with any powertool usage care must be taken in the operation and the process.
> 
> i


Quit showing off your new DeWalt. At least until I get my hands on one tomorrow. Took the Pony back to Big Blue tonight.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

CNYWOODS said:


> If I had miles to do and was to Spare no expense than I'd go this route
> 
> http://hoffmann-usa.com/machinery/hebor-edge-lipping-planer/bh-556-lipping-planer-mfg-by-hebor


Nice tool. I'll set that one right beside all my Fe$tools.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bugmenot said:


> +1. I agree with C'Man. This is the way I would do it.


Naw, I sand to 220.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> A simple adjustable fence is now added to the base making it virtually impossible to overtravel back into the primary surface. It's adjustable for different edge thicknesses as well. It works for me:


Now your cookin with gas.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MNsawyergp said:


> Since I first read your question I have been looking for the source of a foreign tool I saw at the Atlanta woodworking show several years ago. It was a very heavy tool that sat on the plywood and planed the edging flush. I cannot find it anywhere now. I did find a useful link for the Festool trim set up for you to look at. Here is that link...
> 
> http://www.halfinchshy.com/2010/10/routing-laying-down.html
> 
> I will continue to look for the other tool.


It's against my religion to buy Fe$tool. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Where did you find that?:blink:


You bastage I found it last night. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> A simple adjustable fence is now added to the base making it virtually impossible to overtravel back into the primary surface. It's adjustable for different edge thicknesses as well. It works for me:


Exactly. I'm going to build mine so I don't have to take the base of the router. Doesn't that Deee Walt come with a base with one flat side? Or am I confused?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Where did you find that?:blink:


That's so funny. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Darn right you R confused*



Al B Thayer said:


> Exactly. I'm going to build mine so I don't have to take the base of the router. Doesn't that Deee Walt come with a base with one flat side? Or am I confused?
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.



If U R Knot confused By now there is no hope 4 U. There is a flat side , but it's on the bottom. You have to remove the factory base because the screws R 2 short. No big deal except they R metrik.

Now where did you find that device? It looks real similiar to mine. Grate minds think alike I'm afraid. I am verified now. Thancz. :yes:


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Exactly. I'm going to build mine so I don't have to take the base of the router. Doesn't that Deee Walt come with a base with one flat side? Or am I confused?
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


 Hi Al - I like that rig you posted in #70. You really don't need to attach that to the router. Two locating pins (dowels would work fine) and a toggle clamp to keep the router in position and you would be good to go. Just need to drop the router on and clamp it down.. Set your bit and route.:smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*not when..... where?*



Al B Thayer said:


> You bastage I found it last night.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


What's the source of that jig? Do you have a link? What's it called?
Bastage? Go to hail, you fargin' icehole. :yes: Have you been down at the pub learnin' some new words?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Now where did you find that device? It looks real similiar to mine. Grate minds think alike I'm afraid. I am verified now. Thancz. :yes:


The question is where did you happen to see it?:laughing::laughing: Truth of the matter is I tried that same method you have been going on and on about a long time ago...decades before the internet. I've suggested an alternative, that seems to work faster and better. That's the purpose of these threads, it's not "hijacking".

It's a matter of distinction whether the bottom tips of any bits will machine smoother. So, use whatever satisfies you. 

















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The edge banding trim jig found here*

My apologies Al, I actually thought I had come up with an original idea when I made my proposed trim jig....not so! :no: I found the jig you posted along with the following:

https://canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/flush-trim-router-jig










FWW May/June 2005, has a good article on router jigs. See page 71. The edge band trim jig is similar to the one I suggested. There are several others also:
http://dc105.4shared.com/doc/vNb6jky0/preview.html

Another:
 Trimming the hardwood edge banding down to be perfectly flat with the plywood surface, using a trimming jig and the router.


*Precision flush trim jig*

Some pieces, like a tall bookcase side, are just too big to trim on a router table. This jig will flush cut edging on any size piece, large or small. You can use any size straight cutting bit, but I recommend a wide mortising bit. 
The jig is just a 10-in. x 24-in. piece of 3/4-in. plywood with a 1-in. dado cut about 8-in. from one end. Drill a 1/8-in. x 1- in. hole through the middle of the dado for the bit to protrude. Attach the router and add a fence so it just barely overlaps the bit’s cutting radius. The bit will ever so slightly cut into the fence. 
To set up the jig, lower the router bit until it is flush with the bottom (Photo A). Turn the router on and run the fence along the edging to trim flush (Photo B). The long base on the jig counterbalances the router and the fence guides the cut.



Since the original question was which size router .... my suggestion is it depends on the thickness of your edge banding. For 1/8" and under, I'd go with the trim router like the Dee Walt. For 1/8" and up, I go with another PC 690. Just make the jig long enough to support the additional weight of the larger router. While making mine I had the whole jid tip off the bench onto the floor. I added a counter weight to prevent that from happening... a heavy can of drywall screws....easily removable. :laughing:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> What's the source of that jig? Do you have a link? What's it called?
> Bastage? Go to hail, you fargin' icehole. :yes: Have you been down at the pub learnin' some new words?


Maybe I have. 

http://romaxxcncrouters.com/newsblog/new-support-for-new-porter-cable-and-dewalt-routers

Now my problem is which of these newcomers do I want.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> The question is where did you happen to see it?:laughing::laughing: Truth of the matter is I tried that same method you have been going on and on about a long time ago...decades before the internet. I've suggested an alternative, that seems to work faster and better. That's the purpose of these threads, it's not "hijacking".
> 
> It's a matter of distinction whether the bottom tips of any bits will machine smoother. So, use whatever satisfies you.
> 
> ...


You lost me posts ago when you commented to sand to 180 grit. No offense, just not up to par for my work here.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> You lost me posts ago when you commented to sand to 180 grit. No offense, just not up to par for my work here.


You may find that your "up to par" may not be what you think. It would be difficult with as much as you have to do to sand the wood differently than the plywood. If you go much beyond that, the finish may look different. In any case I wouldn't go past 220x (if no stain is used).

















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*they have the same mother....*



Al B Thayer said:


> Maybe I have.
> 
> http://romaxxcncrouters.com/newsblog/new-support-for-new-porter-cable-and-dewalt-routers
> 
> ...


They have the same mother .....just different fathers. One is yellow, the other black and ssilver, no other appreciable/apparent difference to me. :no: Round base on the PC, square on the Deewalt.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> They have the same mother .....just different fathers. One is yellow, the other black and ssilver, no other appreciable/apparent difference to me. :no: Round base on the PC, square on the Deewalt.


I really like the square end on the DeWalt. Good place to put your thumb and index finger. I don't want to have to take the base off to mount it to the new fixture we have conjured up. The square end would index easier. Both have soft start but the PC is one speed. How many speeds do we need for a router this small? Wouldn't swing a big wing in it.

I really like the size and will prolly leave my 690s in the table and mortice machine.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

CNY Woods gave the link to the tool I was looking for ...The Hoffman Edge Lipping planer...

http://hoffmann-usa.com/machinery/hebor-edge-lipping-planer/bh-556-lipping-planer-mfg-by-hebor

This tool will give you a far better finished surface than using a router bit like many people here suggest. I have made a jig like that to plane down extension jambs on windows in houses where I had to install window casing. I used a 1 1/2" diameter bit instead of a 3/4" bit, as the people here suggest. Using the larger bit eliminates tear out...to some degree. The rotation of the router bit still causes tear out on the outer edge or on the panel edge, sometimes. The Hoffman planer would not do that. I do foresee a problem at the corners, though. 

I just found this video of the Hoffman planer on You Tube. Have a look...


----------



## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

*Totally different method: *(assuming you have a table saw with extension table)

1. Attach an auxiliary fence to your rip fence
2. Install a molding head with 1" straight cutters onto the arbor 
3. Clamp a sheet of MDF that will cover the saw table and extension table. 
4. Adjust the rip fence just slightly more than 3/4" away from the MDF. This should leave a trough just slightly wider than the edge banding that you applied to your shelving.
5. Clamp a feather board(s)roller/power feed to the rip fence as a hold down.
6. Start the saw and slowly raise the cutter until it is only a couple of thou below the top of the MDF.
7. Now run your shelving through with the edge banding over the trough and tight against the fence. (Of course you would want to set up on scrap)

With this set up, it will be almost impossible to over cut in terms of width or depth unless the fence moves, or the elevating adj is not locked. This should be very fast and will not leave swirls to sand out like the end of a router bit will. Also the larger diameter of the molding head as compared to a flush trim router bit (one of the first suggestions) will have the advantage of less tear out because the larger diameter's cutter will exit the cut nearly parallel to the wood.

If the shelf lifts, or comes away from the fence, just run it again, this set up should be really easy, fast, cheap, and should be almost foolproof. The only problem I could foresee would be a build up of fine sawdust working its way between the saw table and MDF. I'd run a very small bead of oil based caulk at that joint before starting.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MNsawyergp said:


> CNY Woods gave the link to the tool I was looking for ...The Hoffman Edge Lipping planer...
> 
> http://hoffmann-usa.com/machinery/hebor-edge-lipping-planer/bh-556-lipping-planer-mfg-by-hebor
> 
> ...


Thanks so much but I don't see a life time of use for what looks to be a fine piece of tool. I almost never build cabinets from plywood. I'm a furniture builder. Since 1965 I have built 3 full sets of cabinets. Hence the long discussion here. 

Standing a trim router on end with a 3 fluted bit shaving off an amount so small that can't be measured hasn't been a real big problem. Its cut is easily sanded finished with 220 grit. 

With the fixture discussed here I will gain speed and cut my mistakes down to hopefully to zero. With a cost of no more than a few bucks. The learning curve on that machine would be longer than it will take me to make the fixture and make the cuts.

Thanks Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cps (Jun 21, 2013)

Old Skhool said:


> *Totally different method: *(assuming you have a table saw with extension table)
> 
> 1. Attach an auxiliary fence to your rip fence
> 2. Install a molding head with 1" straight cutters onto the arbor
> ...


I like this solution......


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*workpiece size dictates the tool*

Large cumbersome pieces like cabinet sides are too awkward to handle with great precision unless ypu have a full in and outfeed support on the table saw. Moving a whole bunch of large panels will get really tiring.
That's why I recommend bringing the tool to the workpiece as in a hand held router. The work stays on the bench and the light weight router moves along the edge, spin the piece around or walk around the bench and do the other side. Then flip the work over and do the opposite surfaces. It's a 4 step process at the minimum, and if all 4 edges are banded there are 8 surfaces to finish ..... labor intensive at best. :yes:


Now the big issue is whether the edge banding is proud/sticks up on both sides of the panel...probably so! There's another reason to use the hand held router, because it will not have a flat surface to register on the table saw.


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

It sounds like you've got a plan. But what I do and there maybe a shop around you. Is I run them through a wide belt sander off set with a board under the ply and not the edge. 180 grit 1 pass on each side. The only down side is if there's any voids in ply or variances in thickness. Then you've got a mess.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Old Skhool said:


> Totally different method: (assuming you have a table saw with extension table)
> 
> 1. Attach an auxiliary fence to your rip fence
> 2. Install a molding head with 1" straight cutters onto the arbor
> ...


With all due respect. ARE YOU KIDDING! After extensive google searching nothing like that has come up. One of the considerations needed in this type of work is to handle the material as little as possible. I've already lost 7 lbs and gained a great deal more strength than I dreamed possible at my age. 

Also if you think about the process it's just way too crude for such a small cut. The table saw doesn't have the rpm speed to make a fine enough cut. The setup would take days and too much shop space. I have a power feeder and it wouldn't be able to pull such a large piece through without everything being perfect. Having said all that, the table saw wouldn't raise high enough to get the cutter to the table top.

But thanks for the idea,

Al

Nails only hold themselves.









Here are som of the smaller panels still being glued.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

CNYWOODS said:


> It sounds like you've got a plan. But what I do and there maybe a shop around you. Is I run them through a wide belt sander off set with a board under the ply and not the edge. 180 grit 1 pass on each side. The only down side is if there's any voids in ply or variances in thickness. Then you've got a mess.


The walnut veneer wouldn't be thick enough and I never use belt sanders. It would be rough running a side panel with edge banding sticking up an 1" on one side. Most of the panels are not 3/4" thick edge band.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Large cumbersome pieces like cabinet sides are too awkward to handle with great precision unless ypu have a full in and outfeed support on the table saw. Moving a whole bunch of large panels will get really tiring.
> That's why I recommend bringing the tool to the workpiece as in a hand held router. The work stays on the bench and the light weight router moves along the edge, spin the piece around or walk around the bench and do the other side. Then flip the work over and do the opposite surfaces. It's a 4 step process at the minimum, and if all 4 edges are banded there are 8 surfaces to finish ..... labor intensive at best. :yes:
> 
> Now the big issue is whether the edge banding is proud/sticks up on both sides of the panel...probably so! There's another reason to use the hand held router, because it will not have a flat surface to register on the table saw.


Ding ding ding! You would be correct on all accounts. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> The work stays on the bench and the light weight router moves along the edge, spin the piece around or walk around the bench and do the other side. Then flip the work over and do the opposite surfaces. It's a 4 step process at the minimum, and if all 4 edges are banded there are 8 surfaces to finish ..... labor intensive at best.





Al B Thayer said:


> One of the considerations needed in this type of work is to handle the material as little as possible.


You both mentioned this little detail, and I brought it up too many posts ago. You both can act as standoffish as you please, and think that suggestions from someone that has done this type of thing many times over is not worth considering. 

When you are working with the substrate flat, it has to be moved many times and slid around. This is where you will get abrasions. You can't keep debris off the bench completely. Besides having to run an edge and turn it around, and then flip it over and do that fire drill again, think about the risks in damage, and the possibility of dropping a piece. You get tired real quick, besides having to push the router, which is being subjected to increased resistance from the size of the add on plate.

If the piece is done vertically, it's not being moved around on a bench, and both long edges can be done without moving the piece. It gets turned one time, and all the debris goes off to a side. It's about half the work. So, you've got some more input that you can disregard if you like.

















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I for one, will disregard that advice because*

A 24" wide panel would be 24" off the floor unless it's put on a low table or support blocks to trim the edge vertically. I don't want to bend over to work on anything that's only 24" off the floor OR risk crushing or damaging the edgeband I just carefully installed on the bottom edge....:no: 
Then there is the risk of it tipping over unless it is secured in a stand or door holder rack, a risk I would not be willing to accept. Vertically placed objects fall over, horizontal ones do not. A long flat piece of wood placed on the bench top is unlikely to fall over, where one leaned against it will.

Regarding the possibility of abrasion on the the downside of the panel surface a simple cloth covering like a movers blanket on the bench will protect it. I have used this technique many times. 

I would prefer to trim the panels having them laid horizontally on the bench top and at a convenient working distance. :yes:

Finally, balancing a router on the edge of a narrow panel will require a very positive jig to prevent the cutter from tipping into the panel surface. Even the use of 2 same size panels will be an issue in supporting them. Having only one panel will be more of an issue.

Finally and in closing.... the many horizontal surface registering jigs that have been posted here are an indication /proof that method has widespread support in the field.
Al... what say you?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> *I for one, will disregard that advice because
> 
> *A 24" wide panel would be 24" off the floor unless it's put on a low table or support blocks to trim the edge vertically. I don't want to bend over to work on anything that's only 24" off the floor OR risk crushing or damaging the edgeband I just carefully installed on the bottom edge....:no:
> Then there is the risk of it tipping over unless it is secured in a stand or door holder rack, a risk I would not be willing to accept. Vertically placed objects fall over, horizontal ones do not. A long flat piece of wood placed on the bench top is unlikely to fall over, where one leaned against it will.
> ...


When you do the work you figure out comfortable heights, proper bracing, etc. No need for excuses.








 







.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It ain't me who's doin' the "work"*



cabinetman said:


> When you do the work you figure out comfortable heights, proper bracing, etc. No need for excuses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I merely suggested the rationale for the method we, Al and I have 
agreed will work best for him.... :yes:


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> *It ain't me who's doin' the "work"*


I know it won't be you. I should have said "When one does the work". You just have the excuses.:laughing:

















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*excuses..... what excuses?*

Since when is a rational, logical and well reasoned explanation an excuse? Oh,yah ..... only in your mind. I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant. :thumbdown: But don't take that personally, it's just my "excuse" for not responding to your inane posts. :yes:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> A 24" wide panel would be 24" off the floor unless it's put on a low table or support blocks to trim the edge vertically. I don't want to bend over to work on anything that's only 24" off the floor OR risk crushing or damaging the edgeband I just carefully installed on the bottom edge....:no:
> Then there is the risk of it tipping over unless it is secured in a stand or door holder rack, a risk I would not be willing to accept. Vertically placed objects fall over, horizontal ones do not. A long flat piece of wood placed on the bench top is unlikely to fall over, where one leaned against it will.
> 
> Regarding the possibility of abrasion on the the downside of the panel surface a simple cloth covering like a movers blanket on the bench will protect it. I have used this technique many times.
> ...


I've been riding the "Wooden" bus since the first video of the goofy looking guy with MDF slapped on his router. I haven't had a chance to do any prototypes of my own because I've been spraying finish on the first set. I only have a thousand sq ft shop so I had to stop, clean up and spray. This is just the first quarter of the job which was 10 sheets and 50bf. This consists of one wall 8' 7" high and 13' long. I have to assemble, build the 12 drawers, fit and break down into 3 units and deliver. Then move on to the next wall. It's a big job for one guy.

I'm building the "Wooden slido phlat routn sand". One flat stick of MDF and a piece of paper is all that is required. Prolly throw a screen door handle on it.

Thanks 
Al B Thayer

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> A 24" wide panel would be 24" off the floor unless it's put on a low table or support blocks to trim the edge vertically.
> 
> I don't want to bend over to work on anything that's only 24" off the floor OR risk crushing or damaging the edgeband I just carefully installed on the bottom edge....:no:
> 
> ...


The above are excuses. Craftsmen set themselves up, and arrange their work to be fast and efficient, providing the best end product.



woodnthings said:


> Finally and in closing.... the many horizontal surface registering jigs that have been posted here are an indication /proof that method has widespread support in the field.
> Al... what say you?


Waiting for a backup? There are many ways to do a project. Some of us have found methods that work better than others. What has been posted as "widespread support" may not be from those that have done this procedure many times with many to do at a time. They likely feel their method is the best method.


















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*see post 105 and 106*

It's not what I think or want that matters. It's not what you think that matters either. Al has already decided on his approach to the issue. Post 106. It is settled, it is done. :yes: So am I, done, finished, and bored of this. I am going into the shop and actually build something. See Ya. 
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=ytff1-tyc-inbox&va=edge+band+trimmer


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*See Post #107*

What!!! No videos?:laughing::laughing:

Pong








 







.


----------



## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> Finally, balancing a router on the edge of a narrow panel will require a very positive jig to prevent the cutter from tipping into the panel surface. Even the use of 2 same size panels will be an issue in supporting them. Having only one panel will be more of an issue.


I glued a thin piece of veneer to a piece of plywood and trimmed it vertically with no problem and no added jig. The router is well balanced so it stands by itself on 3/4" plywood. By gripping it near the top, it is possible to hold it near vertical. After I made the cut, I ran over it again with the router tipped, one way and the other. The marks on the plywood are from the bearing when the router was tipped far from vertical. There are no cuts in the plywood because I extended the cutter below the base only about the thickness of the veneer.
The router is a $19 Harbor Freight model. Plenty of power and much lighter and easier to handle than the Colt.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> What!!! No videos?:laughing::laughing:
> 
> Pong
> 
> ...


The above are excuses. Craftsmen set themselves up, and arrange their work to be fast and efficient, providing the best end product.

Exactly. So I'm going to lay the panels flat on my beautiful work bench and use my $2 fixture Woodenthings designed and tested. He's a fixture guru.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Zircon said:


> I glued a thin piece of veneer to a piece of plywood and trimmed it vertically with no problem and no added jig. The router is well balanced so it stands by itself on 3/4" plywood. By gripping it near the top, it is possible to hold it near vertical. After I made the cut, I ran over it again with the router tipped, one way and the other. The marks on the plywood are from the bearing when the router was tipped far from vertical. There are no cuts in the plywood because I extended the cutter below the base only about the thickness of the veneer.
> The router is a $19 Harbor Freight model. Plenty of power and much lighter and easier to handle than the Colt.


Yes that method works well on a panel 6" wide and a few feet long. My banding is 3/4" thick and some of it is 3/4" wide. Many are 8' long and 24" wide. If you trip the router even a little to the inside you have a dip. 

I tried to get 3 Colts to work for me. The first one vibrated all over the board and would not stay on the cut. The collet had a crack in it and the bit was not centered. Then I picked up a new one. Same problem but only 8 thou off. Took it back for an exchange. Checked the third one with bit in the collet and had the same problem. The collet can't hold the bit in the center of the router shaft. I took that one back too. I challenged the Colt owners to check their routers but didn't hear back. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> If you trip the router even a little to the inside you have a dip.


Real craftsmen don't do that.:laughing:


















.


----------



## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

Helping to keep the router vertical is the gyroscopic action of the motor. The router doesn't like to be tipped. You have to work at it to tip it into the work.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Real craftsmen don't do that.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Real gentlemen don't post personal disrespect comments toward another fellow woodworker. What burr got under your saddle cowboy?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Zircon said:


> Helping to keep the router vertical is the gyroscopic action of the motor. The router doesn't like to be tipped. You have to work at it to tip it into the work.


Well I wish that were true enough to make the difference, but it's not.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> Real gentlemen don't post personal disrespect comments toward another fellow woodworker. What burr got under your saddle cowboy?


Why would you think it was directed to you? Uh...for the record, I prefer bareback.:yes:








 







.


----------



## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> With all due respect. ARE YOU KIDDING! After extensive google searching nothing like that has come up. One of the considerations needed in this type of work is to handle the material as little as possible. I've already lost 7 lbs and gained a great deal more strength than I dreamed possible at my age.
> 
> Also if you think about the process it's just way too crude for such a small cut. The table saw doesn't have the rpm speed to make a fine enough cut. The setup would take days and too much shop space. I have a power feeder and it wouldn't be able to pull such a large piece through without everything being perfect. Having said all that, the table saw wouldn't raise high enough to get the cutter to the table top.
> 
> ...


 
I'm glad you settled on a way to get your work done, and I'm sure that it will work fine for you. If you have the room, you might want to look into a material cart. It will save you work and time as well as your back. When you take your panels out of the clamps, save all the walking/carrying and put them on a cart. Roll them over to the next station, sanding, machining, finishing... The cart should be at or slight lower than all the other tops.

In particular what I was suggesting as an alternative was taking them to the table saw, sliding them through with virtually no extra lifting, machining them, restacking then rolling on to the next station. I also thought that you were working with shelves and dividers that were about 3ft long. Some pieces appear to have face frame type banding approx. 2" wide glued on, yet the shelves/dividers appear to be going into dados. This is a quite unusual procedure as almost everyone attaches face frames to a completed carcass. If the shelves have 2" banding, surely the 8' wouldn't show a 3/4" edge. The stiles on most cabinets are left to overhang (slightly) to a better fit to the adjacent cabinet. The others on the show ends would be trimmed with a flush trim bit, preferably helix on the completed/unfinished cabinet.

You were given the industry standard methods, (which I usually use) and I gave you an unusual faster, easier, alternative seeing/guessing at your procedure with no drawings to go by. These size pieces are more easily handled on the machine as compared to clamping/unclamping, flipping, cleaning sawdust, picking up/settling down a router...

Not everything is on google, though darn near! Ever seen a chair seat scooped on a table saw? (the type used in a Windsor chair) Works quite well, but takes a special jig. Techniques used to be held quite close to give a competitive edge, the internet has changed much, but not all.

In terms of the speed of the cutter, the cutting edge on a 5" molding head is actually moving faster than a 1/2", or 3/4" flush trim bit in a router turning at 25,000 rpm. If I remember correctly a cutter of that size would run about 6,000 on the shaper. (I *used* to have a 5 sd Rockwell Invicata adjustable from 2,800 to 10,000. So ya, a little slow, but if sharp and the correct feed speed taking off 1/64 in your case, no problem. Remember when the 6" dado was the standard, it worked well too. 

Seriously, good luck with the project I'm sure that it will turn out well, and I look forward to seeing completed pictures.


----------



## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

Sorry, the other post was getting way too long. Laying a piece of MDF parallel to the fence (does't really even need to be placed perfectly parallel and putting on a couple of clamps would take days? I was assuming changing the blade and attaching an auxiliary fence was quick. I did leave out that you would need to attach a 2nd board to the auxiliary fence to shim out the feather board so that it is over the material and not the trough, cause I knew you would see that in your set up and figure it out. Also probably would use 1/2" MDF depending. You can't get up to 1/2" projection on a molding head on your saw? (from the table top)

I used to use this basic procedure on the shaper in my old shop. Instead of using 3/4 banding, I would use 5/16 - 3/8 (special set up for gluing) ... When finished there was very little sanding, and it had more of a solid stock look as you didn't see and have the difficulty of blending the solid stock to the plywood, but retained the durability and allowed a profiled front edge if I did use 3/4+ stock. (No sarcasm involved anywhere in here.) My main reason for posting was to encourage people to think and be creative in their set ups. Safety first of course. (In this case the cutters would be completely covered by the overhanging feather board ... and almost impossible to get a kickback...) Almost sorry that I shared, hopefully someone benefits. Be very careful what you pick up from the internet, most is good, some is not. If you can try to asses the background asking questions and use your best judgement. This post included. Stay Safe, and enjoy your work. I'm sure you'll be proud and the client satisfied.


----------



## cps (Jun 21, 2013)

Old Skhool said:


> Sorry, the other post was getting way too long. Laying a piece of MDF parallel to the fence (does't really even need to be placed perfectly parallel and putting on a couple of clamps would take days? I was assuming changing the blade and attaching an auxiliary fence was quick. I did leave out that you would need to attach a 2nd board to the auxiliary fence to shim out the feather board so that it is over the material and not the trough, cause I knew you would see that in your set up and figure it out. Also probably would use 1/2" MDF depending. You can't get up to 1/2" projection on a molding head on your saw? (from the table top)
> 
> I used to use this basic procedure on the shaper in my old shop. Instead of using 3/4 banding, I would use 5/16 - 3/8 (special set up for gluing) ... When finished there was very little sanding, and it had more of a solid stock look as you didn't see and have the difficulty of blending the solid stock to the plywood, but retained the durability and allowed a profiled front edge if I did use 3/4+ stock. (No sarcasm involved anywhere in here.) My main reason for posting was to encourage people to think and be creative in their set ups. Safety first of course. (In this case the cutters would be completely covered by the overhanging feather board ... and almost impossible to get a kickback...) Almost sorry that I shared, hopefully someone benefits. Be very careful what you pick up from the internet, most is good, some is not. If you can try to asses the background asking questions and use your best judgement. This post included. Stay Safe, and enjoy your work. I'm sure you'll be proud and the client satisfied.


Like I said before, I liked your setup, so I am glad you posted. I too thought Al would be using manageable sizes for the table saw. I also like your idea of using the carts….However, for my small garage shop, I am all out of room. I have staged wood on sawhorses so I can keep feeding wood into my table saw without having to bend over and get it off of the floor.


----------



## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

cps said:


> Like I said before, I liked your setup, so I am glad you posted. I too thought Al would be using manageable sizes for the table saw. I also like your idea of using the carts….However, for my small garage shop, I am all out of room. I have staged wood on sawhorses so I can keep feeding wood into my table saw without having to bend over and get it off of the floor.


Thanks for the reply. I also now work out of my garage, mostly on fun projects. I would love to have the 1000 sqft that Al does. Saves a lot of walking though, as my old shop was really a little too big to be efficient at times.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Old Skhool said:


> I'm glad you settled on a way to get your work done, and I'm sure that it will work fine for you. If you have the room, you might want to look into a material cart. It will save you work and time as well as your back. When you take your panels out of the clamps, save all the walking/carrying and put them on a cart. Roll them over to the next station, sanding, machining, finishing... The cart should be at or slight lower than all the other tops.
> 
> In particular what I was suggesting as an alternative was taking them to the table saw, sliding them through with virtually no extra lifting, machining them, restacking then rolling on to the next station. I also thought that you were working with shelves and dividers that were about 3ft long. Some pieces appear to have face frame type banding approx. 2" wide glued on, yet the shelves/dividers appear to be going into dados. This is a quite unusual procedure as almost everyone attaches face frames to a completed carcass. If the shelves have 2" banding, surely the 8' wouldn't show a 3/4" edge. The stiles on most cabinets are left to overhang (slightly) to a better fit to the adjacent cabinet. The others on the show ends would be trimmed with a flush trim bit, preferably helix on the completed/unfinished cabinet.
> 
> ...


I have a material cart in play. Along with a rolling assembly bench and other caster dollys.

I posted my method for scooping a seat on the table saw just a few weeks ago. Found the idea on google. 

There are other aspects of the machining of the parts that must be done first that would prohibit sliding the panels on the table saw. 

Again, my router is spinning a 3 fluted cutter at 27,000 rpm. You can only see the mill marks with a microscope.

The panels are so big and heavy they require no clamps. It's also in place to be sanded. 

I only have one Unisaw, so I can't tie it up with such an operation.

Don't have enough time to explain why some are 3/4" and others are 1 3/4". Its not face frame construction. No doors.


Thanks

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Old Skhool said:


> Sorry, the other post was getting way too long. Laying a piece of MDF parallel to the fence (does't really even need to be placed perfectly parallel and putting on a couple of clamps would take days? I was assuming changing the blade and attaching an auxiliary fence was quick. I did leave out that you would need to attach a 2nd board to the auxiliary fence to shim out the feather board so that it is over the material and not the trough, cause I knew you would see that in your set up and figure it out. Also probably would use 1/2" MDF depending. You can't get up to 1/2" projection on a molding head on your saw? (from the table top)
> 
> I used to use this basic procedure on the shaper in my old shop. Instead of using 3/4 banding, I would use 5/16 - 3/8 (special set up for gluing) ... When finished there was very little sanding, and it had more of a solid stock look as you didn't see and have the difficulty of blending the solid stock to the plywood, but retained the durability and allowed a profiled front edge if I did use 3/4+ stock. (No sarcasm involved anywhere in here.) My main reason for posting was to encourage people to think and be creative in their set ups. Safety first of course. (In this case the cutters would be completely covered by the overhanging feather board ... and almost impossible to get a kickback...) Almost sorry that I shared, hopefully someone benefits. Be very careful what you pick up from the internet, most is good, some is not. If you can try to asses the background asking questions and use your best judgement. This post included. Stay Safe, and enjoy your work. I'm sure you'll be proud and the client satisfied.


Thanks for the posts. I'm amazed the thread got this far along for such a simple question. I have learned a lot from all the posts. I will most likely never have a project of this size again. This is just a hobby for me. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Thanks for the posts. I'm amazed the thread got this far along for such a simple question. I have learned a lot from all the posts. I will most likely never have a project of this size again. This is just a hobby for me.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


 That's the great thing about these forums. There are always several ways of accomplishing any given task, the trick is to find one you have the resources to use and one you are comfortable enough with to use safely. Forums will generally bring out a myriad of different methods. Just sayin:smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Al, some final advice here*

As much as I appreciate your compliments on my Git R Done mockup of the edge trimming base for the Deewalt router I would not use that exact setup. I like the one from CWW better for your application. As I found out in your latest posts the size and widths of the edge banding will require a more robust jig and a large router. Thanks for your confidence! :yes: bill

https://canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/flush-trim-router-jig













Flush Trim Router Jig 



_Illustration by James Provost_


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> As much as I appreciate your compliments on my Git R Done mockup of the edge trimming base for the Deewalt router I would not use that exact setup. I like the one from CWW better for your application. As I found out in your latest posts the size and widths of the edge banding will require a more robust jig and a large router. Thanks for your confidence! :yes: bill
> 
> https://canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/flush-trim-router-jig
> 
> ...


This is what I decided on. Just getting started. Will be able to use edge guide on one side. No need to remove the base. The router attaches with two black thumb screws threaded into the base. Easy on and off. Router is ready to go when it comes off the plate.









Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Finished edge band trimmer. Used a piece of solid surface material.









Put a fence on it in order to guide it one time to make the cut. 









One of the things I don't like about router fixtures is removing the base and having to reattach it. So I made it to go on and off without removing the sub base. 









I'm probably going to get shorter bolts for the fence. I don't see any need for them to be this long. But it does need some way to adjust.










Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*now your cookin'*

That's a good use of solid surface material and I like the easy on and off design. Using the existing base for the fence adjustment rather than one below the solid surface is clever, why not... Nice! :thumbsup:

A "fine adjustment" feature could be added to the fence by a threaded hole at the height of the PC base so a bolt/knob registers against it. Threading the bolt/knob "in" brings the fence "out". This will allow you to get "right on" the width of your banding and keep the bit off the finished plywood surface.

Now you just need to attach a light weight flexible dust collection hose on the table side of the jig for "dustfree" operation. I recommend this one and have 3 of them:
Hyde Tools 09165 Dust-Free Drywall Vacuum Hand Sander with 6-Foot Hose - Amazon.com
We don't need no stinkin' Festool. I think I have to make one now..... :laughing:


----------



## cps (Jun 21, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Finished edge band trimmer. Used a piece of solid surface material.
> 
> View attachment 83506
> 
> ...


 
Nice jig.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> That's a good use of solid surface material and I like the easy on and off design. Using the existing base for the fence adjustment rather than one below the solid surface is clever, why not... Nice! :thumbsup:
> 
> A "fine adjustment" feature could be added to the fence by a threaded hole at the height of the PC base so a bolt/knob registers against it. Threading the bolt/knob "in" brings the fence "out". This will allow you to get "right on" the width of your banding and keep the bit off the finished plywood surface.
> 
> ...


Yes dust collection can be done with this next round of panels. I thought micro adjust would be good too. Good idea, I have one I can rob off a router fence from my big a&& 3 hp router. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks to all for the inspiration and input. Today I put this fixture to the test. Fe$tool has got nothin on this setup. It works so well and best of all it was made from scraps. Special thank you to Woodenthings for pounding out a prototype in a heart beat. Also for the link that put it into view.

The cut is perfect which could be due to using the Porter Cable 690. And look how well it skates across my dado slots that had to be cut first. Next I'm going to try it vertically. 

This has cut my work time way down and the results are much more precise.









No clamps required.









This is cutting a 3/4" path in one pass.









This slot in the base is the key to making the cut flush.

Thanks again

Al
Nails only hold themselves.


----------

