# Do pocket holes reduce selling price?



## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

So I have a commission to build a cherry shaker end table. I've created one of these already. I used the FWW article that Schwarz put out. It looks great. However, I used a kreg jig instead of M&T. I hand cut the dovetails and hand planed the surfaces. The pocket holes are just so damn easy and for a project like this (expected weight bearing, thickeness of pieces, etc.) I don't think it makes it structurally weaker. 

Now, I'm selling these as a pair for $600. I've found them online between $800-1000. Do you think it devalues the piece because I used a kreg jig? Obviously none of the joinery is exposed.

Also, is $600 fair?
(Image is not mine but it looks exactly like mine. Just to give you an idea if you don't know)


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## Paarker (Mar 20, 2013)

It really only comes down to you and the customer if pocket holes are acceptable. 

If it was me, no way would I hand cut dovetails to put them in a pocket hole table.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I wouldn't do hand cut dovetails for $600. I wouldn't even do router cut dovetails for $600. It would cost half that much in wood alone. To the right person you could certainty get more with MT and dovetail joinery, but most people don't care.


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

The dovetails are actually pretty easy and quick to cut once you do a couple. I'm more wondering if there is an actual stigma on the buyer side to pocket holes on fine furniture?


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

If you spent the time do do hand cut DT's you could have at least used dowels for the joinery! Dowels can give great strength and you avoid the "pocket hole" stigma.


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

I've never done doweling. I'll investigate that. The wood for the tables cost about $150 for the pair.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Yes they do. Sorry to say. They have their place, just not in shaker furniture. 

If you have ever seen a piece made where screws were used and it's got some years on it. The screw surface oxidizes over time and the wood around it rots. Making the joint loose. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

There are so many easy ways to cut M and T joints there isn't any reason to not use them. 

Al


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> There are so many easy ways to cut M and T joints there isn't any reason to not use them.
> 
> Al


There's no way you could cut M&T in the time it takes to use a kreg jig but I agree with you. The kreg takes no talent, almost zero time, and is dead simple. However, I feel like M&T is the only real way to do this. I should give in and buy some chisels, or a bench top machine.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

I've used pocket screws for years ... Never once had a customer even notice them .... Unless the customer is some kind of woodworker with working knowledge of joinery they don't really care how it's put together .... And I've never ever had a pocket screw get loose in my wood for any reason .... MHO is if the furniture is used for its intended purpose pocket screws will never be a problem ... I've had a lot of old furniture with M and T where they have become so sloppy in the hole had to totally rebuild ...


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

My understanding of pocket screws was that they only had stigma among WWers. I don't want to underprice my work but I also don't want to provide a product that a general public would feel ripped off for.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

IMO the general public feels ripped off buying solid wood furniture pocket holes or not. They would rather go to Kmart and buy a piece of card board junk.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Alternate view on pocket screws from Popular Woodworking:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/pocket-screws-with-fine-furniture

As the author says Kreg did not invent the method of joinery, they just invented a tool to make it easier.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Yes they do. Sorry to say. They have their place, just not in shaker furniture.
> 
> *If you have ever seen a piece made where screws were used and it's got some years on it. The screw surface oxidizes over time and the wood around it rots. Making the joint loose. *
> 
> Al


Please post pictures of such an example if you can...

Because I KNOW better. :smile:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

eschatz said:


> The dovetails are actually pretty easy and quick to cut once you do a couple. I'm more wondering if there is an actual stigma on the buyer side to pocket holes on fine furniture?


 
Your buyer will never notice the difference.

VERY nice dovetails BTW... :thumbsup::yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

eschatz said:


> There's no way you could cut M&T in the time it takes to use a kreg jig but I agree with you. The kreg takes no talent, almost zero time, and is dead simple. However, I feel like M&T is the only real way to do this. I should give in and buy some chisels, or a bench top machine.



Would you like to bet on that? Have you seen my video on MT joints.

http://youtu.be/TJZe8e1BsX0

Al


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

You're a genius Al. Thanks for chiming in on this thread. Everyone has been super helpful. 

I feel better about using pocket holes but I know I need to make the leap to M&T.


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## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Great tool Al. In the same vein if floating tenons is the Beadlock. I haven't sen much about it here but I have the basic kit and it works really well. 

It's a jig that you use to drill overlapping holes with your drill to form the mortises and then use a scalloped Tenon to fit in the mortises. Very fast and provides a great joint.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think unless you put them someplace very visible nobody will know they shouldn't be on furniture. Your customers will eventually tell you if it's a problem. After all today's furniture is mostly pressed paper and plastic. They will be so distracted by real wood they won't notice the screws.


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

Great info from all previous posts! Unless the buyer is an expert on period furniture/antiques, or a furniture designer/builder, most customers WILL NOT notice how the piece is put together, as they usually are more concerned with the style, color, and if it will fit into their home decor. Only if the buyer and seller are in agreement with the finished result and the $ value, can it become a sale. Be safe.


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## cps (Jun 21, 2013)

Another option, although expensive, is the Festool domino tools. I have no personal experience, but they are apparently fairly easy to used and you would then have loose tenon joinery. If you are making a lot of these, it may be worth it.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

Masterjer said:


> Great tool Al. In the same vein if floating tenons is the Beadlock. I haven't sen much about it here but I have the basic kit and it works really well. It's a jig that you use to drill overlapping holes with your drill to form the mortises and then use a scalloped Tenon to fit in the mortises. Very fast and provides a great joint.


I saw that at Rockler, looked interesting. I would've bought it, but the way it's designed there isn't any wiggle room if you don't line things up perfectly. I guess the $100 I saved will go in my Domino fund.


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

woodchux said:


> Great info from all previous posts! Unless the buyer is an expert on period furniture/antiques, or a furniture designer/builder, most customers WILL NOT notice how the piece is put together, as they usually are more concerned with the style, color, and if it will fit into their home decor. Only if the buyer and seller are in agreement with the finished result and the $ value, can it become a sale. Be safe.





OnealWoodworking said:


> Your buyer will never notice the difference.





wendell white said:


> I've used pocket screws for years ... Never once had a customer even notice them .... Unless the customer is some kind of woodworker with working knowledge of joinery they don't really care how it's put together ....





hwebb99 said:


> IMO the general public feels ripped off buying solid wood furniture pocket holes or not. They would rather go to Kmart and buy a piece of card board junk.





Steve Neul said:


> I think unless you put them someplace very visible nobody will know they shouldn't be on furniture. Your customers will eventually tell you if it's a problem. After all today's furniture is mostly pressed paper and plastic. They will be so distracted by real wood they won't notice the screws.


I agree with these posts. In this "IKEA" world we live in, there's just so few consumers that would pay even a penny extra for something that doesn't add or subtract aesthetic value. There's a lot of, "if I can't see it, I ain't payin' for it" mentality.


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## ChiknNutz (Apr 22, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Would you like to bet on that? Have you seen my video on MT joints.
> 
> http://youtu.be/TJZe8e1BsX0
> 
> Al


I made a similar jig as shown here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/loose-tenon-mortise-jig-44007/

But what I am wondering is if someone besides Festool has come up with a similar jig that can accommodate angled M&T joints? More specifically, think of a trapezoid shaped box where the wide part of the boards are connected, not the narrow sections. Perhaps this is just the wrong type of joint for this application, but wondering nonetheless.


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## 4DThinker (Mar 13, 2013)

The only time customers notice hidden joinery it when the joint comes apart. Wide stretchers into vertical legs can fail both using M&T and pocket hole screws. Why? Wood expansion/contraction as humidity changes. The tenons may shrink and work loose. The screws may make the stretcher split if it shrinks. I have best long-term luck using M&Ts, gluing just near the top (to keep the stretcher flush to the top of the legs), followed by a single peg inserted through the leg into the tenon where it won't show. You can even offset the hole a bit to get the peg to pull the tenon in tight when inserted. Make the peg from the same wood and sand it flush.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Pocket hole joinery is great for face frame construction, utility joinery, or many other applications where the pocket hole will be hidden. We use them all the time for cabinet construction. But when we have commissions for quality furniture, we use traditional joinery such as mortise and tenon and dovetails. It all depends on the price point, your work should be priced based on the quality and complexity of the project.


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## MidGAOutdoor (Apr 7, 2011)

I use pocket holes in 99% of what I do. Its how it is. I do landscaping to I don't HAVE to do it. Ive never had an issue with anything with people. I don't force it on anyone, it they were to ask for m/t I would send them on down the road politely because I don't have the time or experience to fool with it. As far as price, I had to learn the hard way. I had a landscaper buddy tell me that if your getting every job u bid out then u are bidding too cheap. u want to get about 80% of what you bid. its hard to say if I would pay $600 for a pair because I build stuff too and im a cheapa$$.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

wericha said:


> Pocket hole joinery is great for face frame construction, utility joinery, or many other applications where the pocket hole will be hidden. We use them all the time for cabinet construction. But when we have commissions for quality furniture, we use traditional joinery such as mortise and tenon and dovetails. It all depends on the price point, your work should be priced based on the quality and complexity of the project.


I agree.In quality build custom furniture there is no place for metal fasteners.I tried pocket holes for face frames for awhile on kitchen cabinet face frames and decided I didn't care for them .I use dominoes and find them to be faster and easier and leave a better joint.
I have a issue with driving screws thru two pieces at an angle .I liken it to toe nailing framing .Sometimes it has to be done on remodels but it is never the best choice.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I agree with Wericha and Mako for such furniture.

To be completely honest, if I were building such a piece for a customer I would explain the difference in joinery options and ask them what they want. Screws with less craftsmanship and lower cost, or traditional with more cost.

IMHO you are doing both yourself and your customer a disservice by not having that talk, unless it's expressly implied one way or the other.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

My wife said you are selling those of 6oo bucks a pair I should sell our coffee table for 1800 LOL It was was with all traditional joinery and mostly hand tools. But heck, if that is what folks are paying ya...great job!

TV STand and Coffee Table (BTW: my sideboard is about done and I do need to do the end tables)


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Why have a discussion with a customer and discuss cheap joinery for a cheaper price?You either build quality or you don't.This is a good way to waste your time and end up selling cheap furniture to cheap clients and going out of business quick.Just the impression it gives is wrong..


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

It's not like pocket screwed joinery won't stay together, it's a simple a matter of craftsmanship. Some customers might care more about the visible craftsmanship than what you can't see. 

Just because it's got pocket screws doesn't mean it can't be a overall quality piece. I like to give customers the options and let them decide what they want.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mengtian said:


> My wife said you are selling those of 6oo bucks a pair I should sell our coffee table for 1800 LOL It was was with all traditional joinery and mostly hand tools. But heck, if that is what folks are paying ya...great job!
> 
> TV STand and Coffee Table (BTW: my sideboard is about done and I do need to do the end tables)



Lovely. Has anyone spilled a cup by setting it near the edge?

Al


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Lovely. Has anyone spilled a cup by setting it near the edge?
> 
> Al


Not yet:no: The little lady does not like anything on it LOL.......I should make a set of coasters for it. Know of any good ideas for coasters that would go good with it?


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## gmcsmoke (Feb 6, 2011)

If you're selling pieces I'd look into a festool domino; that has to be the slickest way to create M&T.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't build my own furniture with pocket screws, but I do build my cabinet carcases and face frames with them (they are just too fast to argue with). Just speaking to what I would want in my own home. If I bought a commissioned piece that had pocket screws, I would be disappointed even though I might not say anything to the craftsperson who did the work - I would not recommend the person for it.

If you invest some time into building jigs or buying a domino system, practice a bit and get proficient, you might only need 20-30min additional time and it would be to a quality that no one could criticize.

I think it comes down to simple economics. Can you afford the extra time in these builds or does it ruin your profitability? If it ruins it, you need to stick with the building methods that keeps you profitable. If not, consider a change to avoid hurting your chances for good referrals in my opinion.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

eschatz said:


> So I have a commission to build a cherry shaker end table. I've created one of these already. I used the FWW article that Schwarz put out. It looks great. However, I used a kreg jig instead of M&T. I hand cut the dovetails and hand planed the surfaces. The pocket holes are just so damn easy and for a project like this (expected weight bearing, thickeness of pieces, etc.) I don't think it makes it structurally weaker.
> 
> Now, I'm selling these as a pair for $600. I've found them online between $800-1000. Do you think it devalues the piece because I used a kreg jig? Obviously none of the joinery is exposed.
> 
> ...




$600 is far for these tables. You are not in the furniture business and paying overhead. Design and construction come with a price.

If that's a knot in the top I would consider that a reject or seconds. This can also affect the price


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Chamfer said:


> It's not like pocket screwed joinery won't stay together, it's a simple a matter of craftsmanship. Some customers might care more about the visible craftsmanship than what you can't see.
> 
> Just because it's got pocket screws doesn't mean it can't be a overall quality piece. I like to give customers the options and let them decide what they want.


Agree with Chamfer here... 







*



If you have ever seen a piece made where screws were used and it's got some years on it. The screw surface oxidizes over time and the wood around it rots. Making the joint loose. 

Click to expand...

* 

I am still waiting to see some pictures of this nonsense posted above.

Because I know for a fact that this is BS. Even a pocket screwed piece with MANY YEARS on it will be fine. There will be no 'rotting' due to any sort of oxidation unless you built cabinets for underwater use... :no:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

And here was my reply:
Hi Chris. First off, let me compliment you on your design and craftsmanship. What a beautiful piece. No matter what the underlying joinery is, that is a fantastic design with great execution. Now, concerning pocket hole screws. Remember, joinery can be just as much about taste and opinion as it is about strength and utility. If you are happy with the final product and you enjoy using pocket screws, all the power to you! Screw away my friend!

Now for my opinion. I have used pocket screws in the past when I could get away with it. The only time I really use them is if they will never be seen. And even then, they are usually the last option I think of. Perhaps its a bit elitist, but I do feel that pocket screws “cheapen” a piece. I would certainly expect Kreg to defend its product and their strength claim may be valid (Im not convinced). But is strength really the only concern to us as woodworkers? If that’s the case, we might want to start using metal to build furniture instead of wood.  Cant get much stronger than that!

Seriously though, I take pride in the fact that my best work contains little to no metal. But that’s just me. We all have to decide for ourselves where to draw the line. Some folks cant imagine using power tools on their projects. They take pride in the fact that their work is crafted the old-fashioned way. Some folks just want to get ‘er done!

Just remember that we all woodwork for different reasons Heck, some of us do it just so we can collect tools. And still others do it simply because its such a sharp contrast to what we do at the office all day behind our computer screens in the confines of our cubicles. Whatever your reason is, keep it fun. If pocket screws make it fun for you, then keep using them. Your work certainly is not suffering for it. Good luck.


Written by Marc Spagnuolo

Maybe this is what started this thread. I'm quite surprised.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Another problem with screws occurs when the screw strips its threads. This often happens with old furniture, because the only screws available to manufacturers were soft zinc-plated or brass screws. It can sometimes happen on modern pieces when the soft wood surrounding the screw crumbles.

EDWARD R. LIPINSKI

Failing screws in woodworking is quite common. 

Al


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Another problem with screws occurs when the screw strips its threads. This often happens with old furniture, because the only screws available to manufacturers were soft zinc-plated or brass screws. It can sometimes happen on modern pieces when the soft wood surrounding the screw crumbles. EDWARD R. LIPINSKI Failing screws in woodworking is quite common. Al


Only if you don't know how to use them ... Or the wood piece is being abused somehow ... 29 years as a successful custom cabinet maker and I only had failing screw issues when my employees failed using them correctly ... Please show an example of a failing screw


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Just my observation and many years of using wood screws in a very wide range of applications I have never ever had a screw strip from a piece of furniture or cabinet that was just setting there ... I'm now watching these screws very closely to make sure none or moving by themselves ...


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

To the average consumer poor workmanship will have much more to do with the value of a piece than choice of fasteners, most would choose good fitting metal fasteners than poor fitting all wood joints.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Screws won't hurt anything. It's a level of woodworking one can choose to be in. I don't like Domino's but work loves them:thumbdown:.

Be happy with your projects or change how you build them:thumbsup:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> Only if you don't know how to use them ... Or the wood piece is being abused somehow ... 29 years as a successful custom cabinet maker and I only had failing screw issues when my employees failed using them correctly ... Please show an example of a failing screw



Somehow the thread has skipped into cabinet face frame construction and it's been clearly pointed out the screw works fine for face frame construction as its a butt joint to begin with. It doesn't get pulled on like the leg of a table or chair.

Fine furniture like the OP posted is another story. Problems associated with screws in furniture have been well documented. While the Kreg tool has given way for using screws in furniture with an easy method, though unsightly. It doesn't address the fact that the screw threads do break down and loosen. The wood movement alone causes this to occur. 

Surely you have removed a steel screw from an old piece and seen the threads are almost smooth and rusted.

Al


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Somehow the thread has skipped into cabinet face frame construction and it's been clearly pointed out the screw works fine for face frame construction as its a butt joint to begin with. It doesn't get pulled on like the leg of a table or chair.
> 
> Fine furniture like the OP posted is another story. Problems associated with screws in furniture have been well documented. While the Kreg tool has given way for using screws in furniture with an easy method, though unsightly. It doesn't address the fact that the screw threads do break down and loosen. The wood movement alone causes this to occur.
> 
> ...


I won't actually dispute this but will mention that a lot of these older pieces have been in basements,sheds,garages,back porches,rain and who knows what else they have endured to get to you.

A piece built today is new and generally put into an acclimated home. All well made pieces of furniture will break down when put in the "wrong" place.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

FrankC said:


> To the average consumer poor workmanship will have much more to do with the value of a piece than choice of fasteners, most would choose good fitting metal fasteners than poor fitting all wood joints.


Well said ... Thank you


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Somehow the thread has skipped into cabinet face frame construction and it's been clearly pointed out the screw works fine for face frame construction as its a butt joint to begin with. It doesn't get pulled on like the leg of a table or chair. Fine furniture like the OP posted is another story. Problems associated with screws in furniture have been well documented. While the Kreg tool has given way for using screws in furniture with an easy method, though unsightly. It doesn't address the fact that the screw threads do break down and loosen. The wood movement alone causes this to occur. Surely you have removed a steel screw from an old piece and seen the threads are almost smooth and rusted. Al


No Al I have built fine furniture with pocket screws too ... 

And all I'm say is if the customer uses the piece of furniture as it is designed and intended there should be no failure of any screws ...
Yes I have seen smooth and rusted screws but never in fine furniture ... Mostly exterior applications 
Now I have seen a lot of wood joinery with loose and wobbly joints ...

I again ask for any proof you have and I quote " problems associated with screws in furniture have been well documented " 

Just because a process is faster does not make it cheaper ... Just smarter


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## Carvel Loafer (Dec 31, 2011)

eschatz said:


> So I have a commission to build a cherry shaker end table. I've created one of these already. I used the FWW article that Schwarz put out. It looks great. However, I used a kreg jig instead of M&T. I hand cut the dovetails and hand planed the surfaces. The pocket holes are just so damn easy and for a project like this (expected weight bearing, thickeness of pieces, etc.) I don't think it makes it structurally weaker.
> 
> Now, I'm selling these as a pair for $600. I've found them online between $800-1000. Do you think it devalues the piece because I used a kreg jig? Obviously none of the joinery is exposed.
> 
> ...


Well if everybody else has chimed in I might as well too.

Eschatz, the table in the pic looks nice, if you have a chance could you post one of the actual table we are talking about, or perhaps it is sold and gone? Anyway, just curious.

Now I'm not a fine woodworker like many on this forum, I just like to make sawdust and put stuff together so I have a slightly different perspective. I have a Kreg jig and I love it, like you said, they are so easy. I've never done table legs with it but I really want to, just to try it and see if they are as strong and reliable as Kreg advertises. It sounds like from the "pro pocket" guys that it is. 

Your question, is $600 fair? Well it is whatever the market will bear. If the customer likes the product and the price then the price is fair. If they are selling for more online then it is more fair for the customer.

Your other question, does pocket joinery devalue the piece? Well it has the value that you and your customer have placed on it. If that is $600 then I don't see and devaluation. If the customer looks at it and says, "oh, you screwed the legs on instead of M&T, this isn't worth as much." then it is devalued. However, to the woodworker there is the personal value in how the work is done but that is all non monetary.

All that said, my opinion of pocket joinery is that it is just another method of joinery. If it fits, and the woodworker is okay with it, and if the customer is okay with it,... well where is the fault in that? If the woodworker is not okay with it, then they shouldn't use it, if the customer is not okay with it, they should refuse to buy.

Sorry, just rambling this morning. :blink:


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## Carvel Loafer (Dec 31, 2011)

Here is an interesting comparison of strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsH8eBfjVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMi6W2cvw7g


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

Carvel Loafer said:


> Your question, is $600 fair? Well it is whatever the market will bear. If the customer likes the product and the price then the price is fair. If they are selling for more online then it is more fair for the customer.
> 
> Your other question, does pocket joinery devalue the piece? Well it has the value that you and your customer have placed on it. If that is $600 then I don't see and devaluation. If the customer looks at it and says, "oh, you screwed the legs on instead of M&T, this isn't worth as much." then it is devalued. However, to the woodworker there is the personal value in how the work is done but that is all non monetary.


One of the first things my Grand Dad taught me was the most important business lesson I've ever learned:


> "Something is worth exactly as much as somebody is willing to pay for it, no more and no less".


Good marketing is bringing the person who is willing to pay the most to the product or service you're trying to sell. There's a science to that. Creating a product in a way that somebody wants and is willing to pay well for, that's more of an art form, IMO. 

I don't personally know anybody that would ask or check if there are screws in a piece of furniture. Their purchase decision would be based on aesthetics and _perception_ of quality (aka "perceived value") which has every bit as much to do with marketing as it does material or craftsmanship.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

Carvel Loafer said:


> Here is an interesting comparison of strength. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsH8eBfjVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMi6W2cvw7g


And there you have it ... Finally proof that mortise and tenon is a lot stronger joint than pocket screws .... I can see now ...next time I build a fine piece of furniture that I plan on jacking up for whatever reason I'll not use pocket screws ...


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Surely you have removed a steel screw from an old piece and seen the threads are almost smooth and rusted.
> 
> Al


 
Nope. Never seen any such thing.

Have also never seen you post any pictures of such.

You would think it would be easy to share photo examples of such failures if this was as 'common' as you seem to believe. :yes:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

wendell white said:


> No Al I have built fine furniture with pocket screws too ...
> 
> And all I'm say is if the customer uses the piece of furniture as it is designed and intended there should be no failure of any screws ...
> Yes I have seen smooth and rusted screws but never in fine furniture ... Mostly exterior applications
> ...


Don't hold your breath waiting for that...


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

FrankC said:


> To the average consumer poor workmanship will have much more to do with the value of a piece than choice of fasteners, most would choose good fitting metal fasteners than poor fitting all wood joints.


 I don't think poor fitting wood joints were mentioned in this discussion.This is not an issue as I see it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Bottom line is to enjoy what you build with the desire and tooling at hand. Not everyone with have the skills nor tooling to create those special pieces.

I don't have everything and spend a lot of my free time thinking of ways to achieve a goal without the tooling. I also spend a lot of time thinking about making complicated pieces and how to get from A-Z without screwing myself.

At 50 the more I think.....


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> I don't see why you need to defend yourself. Answers can be a best guess,personal knowledge or quotes from a woodworking book.
> 
> I often don't answer questions or reply because there are enough replies to fill a book already and it just becomes a personal way of doing things.



Your probably right. 

Al


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Not seeing in your example where I put someone down, called them a name. Can't find a personal attack. If I didn't respond, more than likely I didn't see the question. You will be hard pressed to find a untrue post of mine. So put up or shut up.
> 
> At this point I'm certainly not going to get pushed around.
> 
> Al B Thayer


I didn't say you did any of those things - but rather that you were questioned for posting something that didn't make much sense. Defending yourself for something nobody said you did is one way to deal with that :laughing:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

MattS said:


> I didn't say you did any of those things - but rather that you were questioned for posting something that didn't make much sense. Defending yourself for something nobody said you did is one way to deal with that :laughing:


The fact that it can and cannot happen is the issue. It can happen and other times it cannot happen. So was it worth mentioning, yes. One can't say it "cannot" happen would be to say they are ignorant:yes: to something that can but may not happen.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Rebelwork said:


> The fact that it can and cannot happen is the issue. It can happen and other times it cannot happen. So was it worth mentioning, yes. One can't say it "cannot" happen would be to say they are ignorant:yes: to something that can but may not happen.


Well put, I think you nailed it there!


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

MattS said:


> Well put, I think you nailed it there!



Maybe screwed it would be more appropriate...


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

mako1 said:


> I don't think poor fitting wood joints were mentioned in this discussion.This is not an issue as I see it.


Kind of hard to respond to that statement.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

This is the Mission/Craftsman style end table I just made this weekend. Can you guys guess what joinery it has unless you started looking under the table? This is for my house and it could have been done with nails and my wife would not care. Since she is the customer that is all that matters (Happy wife Happy life LOL). It was done with mortise and tenons just in case anyone is curious. I deviated from dovetails for the drawers and used Dowels and plugs to hide them. The reason for that is I used metal slides and thought that dovetails and slides look stupid together.

I used slides because the wife will open and close it frequently while sitting down and they are easier to open.

Anyway...point is I like doing traditional joinery, but pocket holes would be just as good. The only caveat is if you advertise you do "traditional" work you should do traditional joints.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

mengtian said:


> This is the Mission/Craftsman style end table I just made this weekend. Can you guys guess what joinery it has unless you started looking under the table? This is for my house and it could have been done with nails and my wife would not care. Since she is the customer that is all that matters (Happy wife Happy life LOL). It was done with mortise and tenons just in case anyone is curious. I deviated from dovetails for the drawers and used Dowels and plugs to hide them. The reason for that is I used metal slides and thought that dovetails and slides look stupid together.
> 
> I used slides because the wife will open and close it frequently while sitting down and they are easier to open.
> 
> Anyway...point is I like doing traditional joinery, but pocket holes would be just as good. The only caveat is if you advertise you do "traditional" work you should do traditional joints.



Very nice looking table and very valid points!!


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

michaelpugh said:


> Very nice looking table and very valid points!!


Thanks. I was just trying to keep the thread on topic instead of having it turn into another member bashing fest:icon_smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ok, I'm baffled*



Rebelwork said:


> The fact that it can and cannot happen is the issue. It can happen and other times it cannot happen. So was it worth mentioning, yes. One can't say it "cannot" happen would be to say they are ignorant:yes: to something that can but may not happen.


Two things or scenarios, what ever they are, IF identical in every way, can not BOTH happen and not happen. What am, I missing here? 
Of course, if you change any of the variables or the rules, then all bets are off.
What is the reason for this statement in terms of this thread is my question? :blink:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You guys try to behave now. I just deleted nine posts from this thread.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Two things or scenarios, what ever they are, IF identical in every way, can not BOTH happen and not happen. What am, I missing here?
> Of course, if you change any of the variables or the rules, then all bets are off.
> What is the reason for this statement in terms of this thread is my question? :blink:


A member asked another for proof and didn't get it so it became a pile on. It can happen under the right conditions and yet can't in other situations. 

I've seen it first hand so I'm with Thayer in the "CAN" pile while other are in the cannot pile. So....Even if your in the "cannot" pile there is at least two here that are in the "Can" pile. Now you can choose the "can" or "cannot" pile. It's freedom of choice but beware as I've seen the piles shift from time to time:blink:


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## stoneda70 (Oct 14, 2013)

IMO. If you create a product for fee.. you have a customer/supplier relationship. I think the answer is simple in that if you advertise the product (in this case a shaker style table) at a price that could reasonably be interpreted to be for an authentic piece, or replication, then a minimum disclosure is prudent. In otherwords, a show and tell. Explain your justification for the different technique. Absolute brutal honesty goes a long way, especially if the customer isn't familiar with your talent. And.. you might find that they become equally dedicated customer to your work!


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## hawkeye10 (Feb 18, 2015)

I would want the dovetails but my wife could care less. I bet if I ask her what a dovetail in wood was she wouldn't know.


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