# Joining without fasteners.



## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Hello, I'm quite new to woodworking, (just bought roundover bits for my router today and tried those out) 

I'm currently embarking on a new project of building a new headshell for my guitar amplifier out of flamed maple 25x10x9.5. I'd like to join in such a way that there is NO fasteners, at least visible, how would i do this with limited knowledge and tools? 

The only idea i had was glue blocks but i'd rather not have anything that may get in the way of components. thanks.!


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Pocket screws on the inside. Biscuits in the joint, dowels, dovetails and glue on all of them.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Pocket screws on the inside. Biscuits in the joint, dowels, dovetails and glue on all of them.


Okay, what are "pocket screws" Also, I'm not even sure if i could do biscuits or dovetails, i did watch a video on how to do dovetails with a router but i don't know if its worth purchasing a router table for one project.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Pocket screws on the inside. Biscuits in the joint, dowels, dovetails and glue on all of them.


We shouldn't forget splines, M&T, and tenons to include loose ones.









 







.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Look up Kreg Pocket Hole jig. Got to youtube and look. It's a great system, not that expensive if you get the two holer, drill and clamp. Won't do miters though, just butt joints.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Look up Kreg Pocket Hole jig. Got to youtube and look. It's a great system, not that expensive if you get the two holer, drill and clamp. Won't do miters though, just butt joints.


Thanks so much! I've been looking forward to this project for a LONG time, and I want to try and make it as perfect as possible (not to mention the board itself was $100) and the Kreg seems like it will fit the bill VERY nicely. From some reading i can just plug the holes with dowels and it will be even less noticeable. 

Now i just have to work on getting my router skills a little better, keep messing up corners! :thumbdown:


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Put the holes on the inside and you won't have to do anything to them.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

One more quick question, I plan on rounding over the edges with a router, would i run into problems with the screws if i was to do that?


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Depends on how big the roundover is and how thick the wood is. You can use a 1" screw instead of the 1 1/4", that will give you a bit more roundover ability.

Do a test, use glue and some screws. After the glue dries remove the screws and do the roundover. If you don't see any screw holes peeking through then you know you are good to go.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

domino's.....


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

lateralus819 said:


> Hello, I'm quite new to woodworking, (just bought roundover bits for my router today and tried those out)
> 
> I'm currently embarking on a new project of building a new headshell for my guitar amplifier out of flamed maple 25x10x9.5. I'd like to join in such a way that there is NO fasteners, at least visible, how would i do this with limited knowledge and tools?
> 
> The only idea i had was glue blocks but i'd rather not have anything that may get in the way of components. thanks.!


Just use plain old, ordinary, Tight Bond (or your favorite brand) glue.

I think that the use of fasteners is relatively new to the world of wood working. For centuries the primary way that wood work has been held together is glue.

George


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

+1 with George. I try to use glued joints where possible.

I use fasteners when I need to be able to dis-assemble the piece.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks for the kind suggestions guys i REALLY appreciate it, i'm a noob at woodworking.

I'd love to just do a glue joint but I'll be making a rectangular box and it will be joined end grain to long grain, how strong would that end up being? 

The unit that will reside inside is roughly 40 to 45 lbs and I'm worried about it falling apart if i need to move it.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

A lot stronger than you think if you use epoxy or titebond. But you are correct that in edge to end you should have some sort of fastener. If you have a tablesaw then a spline is probably the easiest to make without getting special equipment.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> A lot stronger than you think if you use epoxy or titebond. But you are correct that in edge to end you should have some sort of fastener. If you have a tablesaw then a spline is probably the easiest to make without getting special equipment.


I have access to a table saw out work, how do i do a spline?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I am having a hard time picturing a rectangular box which has end-grain to end-grain joint.

I can picture end-grain to face grain.

Any pictures?

A spline is merely a strip of wood which goes into a groove.

Make the groove whatever depth and thickness then cut a strip of wood to fit the groove dimensions.

If this is really just a butt jointed box, with end-grain against face grain, another option may be dowels.

How thick is the wood?


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> I am having a hard time picturing a rectangular box which has end-grain to end-grain joint.
> 
> I can picture end-grain to face grain.
> 
> ...


check out this thread my friend.

http://www.robchapman.tv/forum/threads/monkey-lords-coolidge-outlander-100-amp-photo-fest.561/

Basically the same thing is what i am going to make. He used dove tail but i dont have access to a machine or the knowledge. The wood is 3/4 thick. 

hope this helps.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

You can do one of two things. Make a tongue and groove joint which is the more difficult of the two. Lets say you are using 3/4" stock. You would take one of your boards and using the tablesaw make a groove in the board so the backside of the kerf is 3/4" from the front edge of the board. Normally the groove would be just over 1/4". Then you would cut a rabbet in the other board that will mate so it leaves a tongue that is 1/4". When you fit them together it forces the boards to line up flush with each other, assuming you did everything correctly.

The other way is to make a groove in each board. You would set the groove up in or near the middle of the thickness of the board so if you are using a 1/8" blade you would have a 5/16" space between the fence and the blade. Then you would take one of the boards and lay it down on the tablesaw and push it through the blade. Then you would take the other board and hold it up against the fence (vertically) and push it through the blade. Now you have a groove near the edge on the face of one board and a groove on the edge of the other board. You now need to make the spline. It is just a 1/8" thick stripe of wood that fits into the two grooves, you could call it a "loose tongue" or a "loose tenon" Just make sure they fit snug and fill up both grooves. You could also make it 1/4" wide or whatever you need.

It is also best to make the grain in the direction that will give it the most strength. In this case the grain would go with the short length. A lot of people use 1/4" plywood for the splines.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> You can do one of two things. Make a tongue and groove joint which is the more difficult of the two. Lets say you are using 3/4" stock. You would take one of your boards and using the tablesaw make a groove in the board so the backside of the kerf is 3/4" from the front edge of the board. Normally the groove would be just over 1/4". Then you would cut a rabbet in the other board that will mate so it leaves a tongue that is 1/4". When you fit them together it forces the boards to line up flush with each other, assuming you did everything correctly.
> 
> The other way is to make a groove in each board. You would set the groove up in or near the middle of the thickness of the board so if you are using a 1/8" blade you would have a 5/16" space between the fence and the blade. Then you would take one of the boards and lay it down on the tablesaw and push it through the blade. Then you would take the other board and hold it up against the fence (vertically) and push it through the blade. Now you have a groove near the edge on the face of one board and a groove on the edge of the other board. You now need to make the spline. It is just a 1/8" thick stripe of wood that fits into the two grooves, you could call it a "loose tongue" or a "loose tenon" Just make sure they fit snug and fill up both grooves. You could also make it 1/4" wide or whatever you need.
> 
> It is also best to make the grain in the direction that will give it the most strength. In this case the grain would go with the short length. A lot of people use 1/4" plywood for the splines.



The 2nd option is more akin to a biscuit joint correct?


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Yes. But a biscuit jointer (plate jointer) is anywhere between $60 and $600 depending on what brand you get (Ryobi - Lamelo). You have a tablesaw and this option is free for you right now and the jointery has been used for centuries. If I had to choose between the Pocket Hole jig and the biscuit jointer I'd take the PH jig in a heartbeat. So much more useful. 

Of course, I have both.:laughing:

and then some


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Yes. But a biscuit jointer (plate jointer) is anywhere between $60 and $600 depending on what brand you get (Ryobi - Lamelo). You have a tablesaw and this option is free for you right now and the jointery has been used for centuries. If I had to choose between the Pocket Hole jig and the biscuit jointer I'd take the PH jig in a heartbeat. So much more useful.
> 
> Of course, I have both.:laughing:
> 
> and then some


Haha, i would do the PH joint but I'm worried about the screws protruding when i do my roundover.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I told you to do a test. If you are planning on doing the wood thing for a bit then the PH is a valuable tool to have. I use mine nearly everyday. I am a professional though, I do this for my living. I have the smaller handheld jig that I got first and used for a few years before I plunked down $800 on the Kreg Foreman to make my life easier.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> I told you to do a test. If you are planning on doing the wood thing for a bit then the PH is a valuable tool to have. I use mine nearly everyday. I am a professional though, I do this for my living. I have the smaller handheld jig that I got first and used for a few years before I plunked down $800 on the Kreg Foreman to make my life easier.


I may just buy it, i was looking at my test (i made a test box out of 3/4 ply) its already together and i did a 3/8" round over. It looks like it may not even be an issue! Sorry about so many questions! I love to learn and i want this to be flawless as possible, I've been bugging the fellow carpenters at work non stop haha! Thanks.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Questions are how you learn. Just remember to take the screw out of the joint before you do your test route. If it does poke through then it will put a nice nick in your router bit, then you'll have to buy one of those too.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Questions are how you learn. Just remember to take the screw out of the joint before you do your test route. If it does poke through then it will put a nice nick in your router bit, then you'll have to buy one of those too.


Yes learn i must! I've been trying hard to get into the carpentry shop for a while now. Not quite carpentry like you all are used to its scenic carpentry.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

The pictures help. This is what I call a butt joint. Sides will butt end-grain to the top and bottom face grain.

I think the tongue and groove is easy enough to do on the table saw.

This is not to scale.









Cut e.g., 3/8in wide x 3/8in deep on each piece.

If you want to buy a jig, I would say a box joint jig would work for you. Poor mans dovetail.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Yep, like I described, a tongue and groove. I was too lazy to make pics this morning.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Why get it complicated? Why be so concerned about and end joint. I am sitting here looking at 7 such joints in two bookcases. These joints are more then adequately strong. 

That type of joint is used thousands of times every day across this world for exactly that type of build.

There is the age old saying "keep it simple stupid."

More commonly called the KISS principle.

George


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

you can cut a groove for a spline with a groove cutter on a router.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A rabbet with glue and then clamped works pretty darn good...just like drawer assembly. Can be done with a router, or a table saw.









 







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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Forget it! I finally found a solution. I bought a dovetail jig and I'm going to do that. I've been practicing on scrap a lot and have finally figured out how to use it. I practiced on AC/maple ply and apparently it doesnt work too well but i did use it on some walnut and that came out very well..

One question though. Any tips on doing dovetails in maple such as precautions or ways to prevent tear out?


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

lateralus819 said:


> Forget it! I finally found a solution. I bought a dovetail jig and I'm going to do that. I've been practicing on scrap a lot and have finally figured out how to use it. I practiced on AC/maple ply and apparently it doesnt work too well but i did use it on some walnut and that came out very well..
> 
> One question though. Any tips on doing dovetails in maple such as precautions or ways to prevent tear out?


 
Dovetails can be a PIA with plywood. Sounds like you have pretty good plywood though. Backer board helps a lot. Usually need and extra pair of arms to get two boards loaded in the jig though. Another thing I will do is just a couple of very shallow passes through the comb and then climb cut each pin/tail. :blink:


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Baltic Birch or Euro Maple ply or Apple ply will do well with dovetails. There is usually a bit of breakage between the plys, but that all gets hidden anyway and it rarely affects the strength of the joint.

This is Euro Maple


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

UPDATE: Tried some more test pieces (messed up, cut tails on wrong piece, whatever its a test right?) 

Anyways, tried another piece of maple on the back as a backer and VOILA! Worked a charm! 

No visual damage to the visible side at all! Woohoo..

Now id like a backer on the front and back when i do the real deal. Is there a material that works best for this?

I was thinking of maybe 1/4" MDF.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Don't use MDF. It will dull the bit quickly. Use solid.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Don't use MDF. It will dull the bit quickly. Use solid.


Really? Thats good to know! Anything solid okay, does the thickness matter?


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Just needs to cover the area you are using it to prevent breakout. Usually the thickness of the drawer side/front


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Just needs to cover the area you are using it to prevent breakout. Usually the thickness of the drawer side/front


Okay thank you. Tomorrow I'm going to grab some scrap maple slabs and try it out. 

Now when it comes to smoothing over the joints, I'm assuming a sander is definitely a no-no, and a hand planer is the way to go?

If so what type?


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

If you are doing dovetails you would be best to sand or plane all your board first (inside of drawer). If you take off to much stock then the dovetails will no longer fit nice.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay gotcha, but what I'm saying is once the box is all assembled and there may be some variance in the joints to get it level.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Id you have your dovetail jig set up right then there should be very little variation. I make my sockets a bit deep and my pins a bit tight. I put glue in the socket and then insert the pins and put a block on the joint and whack it with a mallet until they are flush. They are tight enough that I don't use clamps.

I use a sander.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Id you have your dovetail jig set up right then there should be very little variation. I make my sockets a bit deep and my pins a bit tight. I put glue in the socket and then insert the pins and put a block on the joint and whack it with a mallet until they are flush. They are tight enough that I don't use clamps.
> 
> I use a sander.



Sander, okay, what grits. Do you successively go up in the grain? 

Also, thanks SO much, i appreciate all the kind replies and i can't wait to put the knowledge to good use!

And btw i checked out your site, you do fabulous work! :thumbsup:


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I do most of mine with 150 grit. Sometimes I need to go to 120 for the top and bottom.

Thanks.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

lateralus819 said:


> Hello, I'm quite new to woodworking, (just bought roundover bits for my router today and tried those out)
> 
> I'm currently embarking on a new project of building a new headshell for my guitar amplifier out of flamed maple 25x10x9.5. I'd like to join in such a way that there is NO fasteners, at least visible, how would i do this with limited knowledge and tools?
> 
> The only idea i had was glue blocks but i'd rather not have anything that may get in the way of components. thanks.!


There are a LOT of different answers to your question, so just let me fire off a few at you.

Box Joints.
Half Blind Dovetails.
Through Dovetails.
Mortise and Tenon.
Mortise and Loose Tenon.
Biscuits.
Rabbet and Dado.
Splined miters.
Dowelled Butt joint.
Pocket screws from the inside. 

None of the joints listed above use metal fasteners except pocket hole screws. Dovetails are probably the hardest to do, but also the strongest.

The most common joint I have seen done on amplifier casings is box joints. Common, solid joint.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Dave Paine said:


> The pictures help. This is what I call a butt joint. Sides will butt end-grain to the top and bottom face grain.
> 
> I think the tongue and groove is easy enough to do on the table saw.
> 
> ...


That joint is what I have always heard called "Rabbet and Dado".


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay so today i got lucky and found some maple stock at work about 4" wide 3/4 thick. Cut off 7"x4" pieces to test.

All the cuts we're pretty clean and went smoothly. Problem arose when I went to put them together. 

It seemed kind of tight but i was dilligent with my hammer applying even pressure across the whole board, got it sealed tight, turned it over and one peg broke..(Btw i tried making them "looser" according to the gauge, seemed a tad better, also note: with the pegs broke off, i noticed the remaining pegs left in the pin board could EASILY slide in and out which makes me believe the fitment is perfect. 

Now My thinking was that the reason it actually broke was because instead of the grain running vertically with the tails, it was running horizontally. Would that make sense? 

It's getting down to the wire now, my flamed maple board came in and it is STUNNING. I'm getting nervous but yet I'm still confident in myself..

I also picked up a nice piece of paduk to accent!


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Just did another test, didnt get any breakage, not sure if its because i made the bit lower thus loosening the joint or if i just got lucky!..

Also, any tips to reduce tearout on the Pins?? 

I've eliminated tearout on the tails with a backerboard that works great. Now to stop the pins.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

What jig are you using. Is it one that you do the boards separately or one corner at a time?


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> What jig are you using. Is it one that you do the boards separately or one corner at a time?


It's the EZ dovetailer pro from home depot. $40 jig...And yes one board at a time.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

That's your issue right there. Never used one of those. I have a pretty inexpensive jig, a Reliant. I paid $70 for it but it was probably 2 decades ago. :laughing:

Pretty close these

http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=6kcPULjaPKf02wW34oDQAQ&ved=0CHcQ8wIwAg

https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?minisite=10064&item=351433

http://www.toolplanet.com/product/T...bit+templat&v_traceback=c0723_0155_f0723_0228


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Also i must note, the bit i am using is the one that came with the Jig so i can only imagine it isnt of the highest quality. I did buy a new dovetail bit from home depot but, it didn't come with a bearing and the ones off the other bit wouldn't go over the "paint" on the bit.


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Gee, if homedepot has one of those doodads i may get one. This non-sense of doing them separate stinks!


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Well quick update guys! 

The enclosure is finally glued and clamped!! 

The doves came out perfect, no tearout or blemishes. I had one minor tweak i had to make the pins a little longer but i sorted it and it looks LOVELY. i can't thank you guys enough. I'll post some updated pics in a few days.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Did you use your original dovetail jig or did you splurge and get another one?


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

lateralus819 said:


> Well quick update guys!
> 
> The enclosure is finally glued and clamped!!
> 
> The doves came out perfect, no tearout or blemishes. I had one minor tweak i had to make the pins a little longer but i sorted it and it looks LOVELY. i can't thank you guys enough. I'll post some updated pics in a few days.


Great:thumbsup: I've got that little dovetailer also. Actually a lot easier to use than my Rockler jig. Did you use it on a router table or clamped to the bench? You can use it either way..


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## lateralus819 (Jul 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Did you use your original dovetail jig or did you splurge and get another one?


The original. I tried finding a Porter cable but couldn't. But it worked out great. I


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