# Eastern Red Cedar



## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

About how long will it take 8/4 ERC to air dry? Can it be used with only air drying or do you somehow need to set the pitch?


I have several logs 12-16" dia. that I want to crosscut diagonally (not straight) to get elongated cookies. Yes I know they will probably split, but I was going to away some of it so I'm left with a cookie with a 120 degree backside and a live edge front. I want to make rustic shelves with a single gusset support (quarter of a thinner cookie) that fit the corners of my stick framed bay window.


Another question, how do I attach gusset to wall? I don't care for pocket screws; too visible.


Edit: Mods feel free to move to design section if more applicable.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Stacked and stickered, outdoors under cover and not cooked in a shed, wood carvers expect air-drying
to go about 1" thickness per year. Don't cut your stickers more than 1/4" thick so the drying goes slow.
I buy diagonal cookies, 6/4, from a shop down the street to use as bases for carvings.



I have been carving mostly western red cedar for approx 20 years.
I buy 24" x 12" x 8" shake blocks and 5" x 5" x 64" posts wet and directly from the mill.
To be honest, I don't do anything! The cedars have good dimensional stability as they dry.
I'll predict that if you can dry SLOWLY, you would not see much cracking.
But, it's wood. For dead stuff, it moves.



So, you have lots of cut-open end grain and 8/4. 

Drying from both sides, that ought to go down in a year..
The Equilibrium Moisture Content in conifer wood is 12% - 14%.
I have wood piles both indoors and out. Nothing much happens.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Djg,

I think Brian T. covered most of your questions perfectly...I will just expand and back up a few points with additional info. Use of it what you wish or find valuable...I can expand on anything if you wish...



djg said:


> ....About how long will it take 8/4 ERC to air dry?


As said...1" per year is considered an average...but their are differences with species, location, and size of stock...



djg said:


> ....Can it be used with only air drying or do you somehow need to set the pitch?


Absolutely...Air drying is all wood ever received for millenia...

And kilning wood is a modern construct more out of industrialization and commercialization (as well as impatient!!!) from the wood industry...Its not a factor of best practice! Many us will not use kiln dried would unless from a very good Sawyer that actually knows what they are doing...!!?? I actually work with "green wood" and if dry only prefer air dry only 90% of the time...



djg said:


> ...I have several logs 12-16" dia. that I want to crosscut diagonally (not straight) to get elongated cookies...


That's awesome and will make for some interesting wood to work with!!!

Below are some post links with good information on "wood slices" (sorry about the debates that went on in a few of them...but still good info nevertheless!) I hope to be starting a discussion soon dedicated to only that subject. I've been harvesting and working with Cookies (aka wood slices) since 1969...

Epoxy and Finishing Help Needed

Drying Stumps and Cookies

Using Green Lumber for a Project..Drying question?

Lumber splitting



djg said:


> ....Yes I know they will probably split, but I was going to away some of it so I'm left with a cookie with a 120 degree backside and a live edge front. I want to make rustic shelves with a single gusset support (quarter of a thinner cookie) that fit the corners of my stick framed bay window...


I've designed and made exactly that kind of shelf before...!!!...several times for myself and clients alike...

Being a "rustic folk style" I could offer that when I did them, I used the wood green. Green woodworking is actually the foundational element to the craft of woodworking...especially in the folk (aka "rustic") styles. If you want to explore that...???...perhaps I can expedite my post on Cookies?



djg said:


> ...Another question, how do I attach gusset to wall? I don't care for pocket screws; too visible....


I'm presuming your "gusset" assembly is the bracket/corbel system you intend to mount the shelves with? If correct I can make several recommendations including "rustic limb versions" or hidden high strength modern versions that are jointed into the shelf wood itself...It all depends on the look you are going for. 

Good Luck, and as just a point of "geek speak" on botany, we don't really have any true Cedars in North America...Do you know what actual species of "red cedar" you are working with? Is it a Pacific species or a Juniper of some kind? All of these are really dimensionally stable woods for the most part and dry quicker than others species...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

djg said:


> About how long will it take 8/4 ERC to air dry? Can it be used with only air drying or do you somehow need to set the pitch?
> 
> 
> I have several logs 12-16" dia. that I want to crosscut diagonally (not straight) to get elongated cookies. Yes I know they will probably split, but I was going to away some of it so I'm left with a cookie with a 120 degree backside and a live edge front. I want to make rustic shelves with a single gusset support (quarter of a thinner cookie) that fit the corners of my stick framed bay window.
> ...


Cedar is more stable than a lot of wood. Still for 8/4 I would allow it to dry for two years stored in a dry location. For the most part the only problem you might experience is some end checking. 

As far as mounting the shelf you could screw a 3/4" piece of wood to the wall edgewise and mortise the shelf to slip over the piece of wood. The width of the board would be limited to the depth you could route a groove in the shelf. If the shelf was wide though you would need additional support such as a bracket. If you don't want a bracket you could set up a drill press and depending on the weight drill a hole deep enough to insert a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" pipe. Then drill into the wall stud close to 4" deep and glue the pipe into the stud.


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Brian T said:


> Stacked and stickered, outdoors under cover and not cooked in a shed, wood carvers expect air-drying
> to go about 1" thickness per year. Don't cut your stickers more than 1/4" thick so the drying goes slow.
> ...............
> I'll predict that if you can dry SLOWLY, you would not see much cracking.
> ...



I've stickered hundreds of BF while I was at the saw mill and we use 1" square stickers. But I could see where 1/4" stickers would slow drying. Maybe cause a little mold on the surface.


I didn't know what the useable MC for ERC would be, thanks. I thought a porous wood like this would dry quicker than hard woods.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Djg, 
The ERC we call in this area of middle tn actually air dries very well and usually loses the moisture quicker than our hardwoods so the rate time is usually shorter.. Good stickering and clean air flow (not closed up and stale) is important that I believe Brian and Jay's already mentioned.

Enjoy and please post pics!!!


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> ........
> 
> Absolutely...Air drying is all wood ever received for millennia...
> 
> ...



1) I was planning on ADing them and then DH kiln at 90 F until dry. I was worried about pitch because I heard as with pine, the pitch must be set at higher Temps (150 F?) so that a finish will properly adhere and not just float.


2) Thanks for the links


3) I'd like to see photos of your shelves.


4) I'd be interested in seeing your 'cookie' thread.


5) I have a limb shelf planned for later. Need some more examples.


6) That's the name we call it in IL&MO. Here's an example: https://stlouis.craigslist.org/grd/d/park-hills-tongue-and-groove-lumber/6781378222.html


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> ......
> 
> As far as mounting the shelf you could screw a 3/4" piece of wood to the wall edgewise and mortise the shelf to slip over the piece of wood. The width of the board would be limited to the depth you could route a groove in the shelf. If the shelf was wide though you would need additional support such as a bracket. If you don't want a bracket you could set up a drill press and depending on the weight drill a hole deep enough to insert a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" pipe. Then drill into the wall stud close to 4" deep and glue the pipe into the stud.


If I'm understanding you right, you're suggesting something like a French cleat and a floating shelf system. I want a vertical bracket made from a quarter of a cookie. I'll try to post pics tomorrow.


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Djg,
> The ERC we call in this area of middle tn actually air dries very well and usually loses the moisture quicker than our hardwoods so the rate time is usually shorter.. Good stickering and clean air flow (not closed up and stale) is important that I believe Brian and Jay's already mentioned.
> 
> Enjoy and please post pics!!!



I thought it would dry quicker and at the end, I would stick it in the kiln (which I still haven't built:sad2 but was wondering about setting the sap so finish would adhere? Temp/time?


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Djg,

With erc you need to take extra precautions drying beyond AD ... Dr Gene aka "wood doctor" had advised me that it's bad about checking when drawn down below 10% MC....

Pitch....normally not a issue with erc.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi DJG,

You are most welcome for the links...I hope you get something out of them?

I'm horrid for not taking pictures. I do have a rather extensive Pinterest Board collection I use for 
students and clients alike, but I don't think (?) I have anything like this on there yet. I will look for some...

I too don't think you have to worry too much with this species for "pitching out" on you, yet I will own that I don't ever think about it as I only work in folk traditions. I work with a lot of Pine, and have to admit that I can count on only one hand were its been an issue and that was with Kiln dried...not air...and it was D. Fir which seems to be bad anyway for being "pitchy?"

I'm going to try and get the "Cookie" thread up this coming weekend...

That photo looks to be a Juniper species to me...Let's see what Tim thinks?

I look forward to the limb shelf...!!!...That will be really cool...:smile2:



djg said:


> ...I want a vertical bracket made from a quarter of a cookie....


That will look awesome!!! Great design choice for these!!!



djg said:


> I thought it would dry quicker and at the end, I would stick it in the kiln (which I still haven't built:sad2 but was wondering about setting the sap so finish would adhere? Temp/time?


That's Tim's world and he's great at it...You could still "be brave"...LOL!!!...and work it green...:vs_smile:

Love to see pictures of the wood as it is now?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

djg said:


> If I'm understanding you right, you're suggesting something like a French cleat and a floating shelf system. I want a vertical bracket made from a quarter of a cookie. I'll try to post pics tomorrow.


It's like a floating shelf. A French cleat is two boards with a mitered edge that is hidden behind a cabinet. There isn't enough surface area on 8/4 for that. If you had heavy enough brackets firmly mounted to the wall all that would be needed is a little construction adhesive between the shelf and the wall. It would just need something to keep the shelf from sagging over time.


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