# Question about Dust Deputy vs Thein when run with Shop Vac



## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

I know you have threads and discussions already all over for this, so I hope you don't mind, but I am getting so confused looking it up online that I need help. And I am getting such nice responses on another question, I thought I would go ahead and ask...

I am trying to decide between two options for sawdust collection. 

Either way, it will be run with a this shop vac: http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-St...5500/100377372

I will either purchase the Oneida Dust Deputy









Or build a Thein Seperator similar to this one: http://madebyjohn.blogspot.com/2011/...collector.html









Unfortunately I have yet to find a straight comparison between the two when it comes to finer sawdust AND being run by a shop vac (as opposed to a dust collector). It seems that everyone has an opinion, but I can't find anyone who has used both with a shop vac.

Any thoughts between the two options?

(and yes... I do know that neither will remove all the fine dust and I will have a hepa filter on the vac and if worse comes to worse, vent the exhaust the outside)


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This thread will answer your questions....*

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/forget-dust-deputy-27235/

Unless I'm mistaken that should help you decide.


Unless I'm mistaken, 3 table saws is definitely not enough. Don't ask me how many is...... I will only admit to having 6.:surprise2:


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Built several versions of the Thein baffle, finally built a vortex separator style - worked much better. (It's the dark blue part in the picture).


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

The thread "Forget the Dust Deputy" was so slanted against the Dust Deputy that there was no discussion.
Have you spent time at the Thein Baffle website? 
Anyway, I have done way too much research but have not experienced either system, although I will end up with a dust deputy. My sense of it after my obsessive research binge is that if you have the time, would enjoy the build, and want to save a little money, especially if you have scrap sheet goods you can use, is that you will be very happy building a separator.
If you have a backlog of projects and don't mind spending the cash, buy a Dust Deputy. You will be very happy with it.
I believe that this is also the opinion of Paul Thein, who invented the thing.


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

there are more questions than answers here. What kind of mess are you making? how much of it and how often?

Thats a VERY small machine for any workshop use. No point building a fancy seperator if the suction isnt powerful enough to operate it properly.
(think like putting giant racing tyres on a small engined car, useless)

If you are already making sawdust, what do you have now? If its only that machine I hope you are wearing a good dust mask.

Get the dust deputy. Its a lot better than nothing, and will greatly reduce the bag useage on the machine.

Then get a bigger machine and then get a better seperator.


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## sleepymonkey (Oct 1, 2016)

*Dust Deputy*

We use a dust deputy. Our workspace is small, so we haven't got the space or time to build or buy anything larger. The DD tips over when we move it about, so a small cart to hold it and the vac in place would be a good idea for us. It works fine for our minimal needs.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

sunnybob said:


> there are more questions than answers here. What kind of mess are you making? how much of it and how often?


Before now I have been making most of my sawdust outside, then having to blow off whatever machine and bring it back inside... filling up much of my dining and kitchen area with tools and supplies. Now I finally have built a tiny workshop and am in the process of gathering what I need for it. Space is a major concern though as it is just barely over 7ft x 13ft inside and has three doors taking up room.

I will still do most of the sawdust-making outside in the summer, but an occasional few small cuts with the miter saw, table saw, router, or a little sanding with the belt sander will probably happen inside the workshop during winter. Not a lot, and not real frequent. 

I think the smaller vac was the best compromise between small size and power, since it will actually be used more for cleaning up a little shavings from drills or quick vac-up or blow-out of the little messes in the shop. The vac may stay hooked to the miter saw when not being used for something else as it seems a few quick chop cuts are the most frequent mess making thing I do. I also liked the fact that it is designed to hang on the wall so I can put it above the collector... instead of beside the collector. I am really hoping it will be enough to run through the separator, as more powerful ones just seem to take way too much room for my tiny shop.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/forget-dust-deputy-27235/
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken that should help you decide.
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, 3 table saws is definitely not enough. Don't ask me how many is...... I will only admit to having 6.:surprise2:


Thanks for the link. I like the thread, but unfortunately it seems no one there has tried a Dust Deputy and a Thein, so it still leaves the question. They both obviously work, but I am still wondering if one works better with a shop vac.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

Alchymist said:


> Built several versions of the Thein baffle, finally built a vortex separator style - worked much better. (It's the dark blue part in the picture).


It looks like a very tall version of the dust deputy, am I correct? What did you use for the housing?


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I have a Dust Deputy. I built a wooden stand with the vacuum low and the Dust Deputy on top because it takes up less room in my small shop. The stand is on rollers and can be moved around. The vacuum can easily be separated from the DD and stand to vacuum out a car or whatever. The DD will trap most of the debris and allow the vacuum filter to go much longer intervals between cleanings. 
I do not have a central vac system. I move my shop vac from tool to tool as needed and vacuum the shop floor at the end of most work periods. 
The primary benefit for me is not having to clean or change the vac filter as often. 
The main complaint with the DD is it takes up more room than I thought it would. 
Shop Vac should come out with a model incorporating a built in DD type design. It would be one unit, with a smaller footprint. I think it would sell well to people with small shops.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*better with a shop vac?*



Taf said:


> Thanks for the link. I like the thread, but unfortunately it seems no one there has tried a Dust Deputy and a Thein, so it still leaves the question. They both obviously work, but I am still *wondering* *if one works better with a shop vac*.



The proof is in the photos on Kenbo's thread as far as I'm concerned. You can't hardly get any better than that, and if you want to get down to splitting microns, go right ahead. I would find the Dust Deputy too tall and tippiy for my uses, the higher the hoses get the more likely it's apt to get whacked over by a misguided board.... even if it may get better dust separation into the filter. The filter on the shop vac is meant to be cleaned out occasionally regardless. Both devices are meant for use with a shop vac, and it would be very unlikely that the same person will have both units for comparison.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I have a dust deputy connected to a shop vac. It sits on one side of the garage (shop) and is connected via pvc pipe to the miter saw, bench top belt sander and has a port for hooking up a hose to the router table, ROS, general cleanup of sawdust. It works just fine. Never anything to speak off in the shop vac bag or filter.

On the other side of the shop, I have a 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector that is piped up to the table saw. It also has a 4 inch port so I can hook up a hose to the drum sander or the planer.

No complaints from me on this set up.
Note: The dust collector has a Thein baffle inside of a 30 gallon drum. Everything drops out into the drum.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

MT Stringer said:


> I have a dust deputy connected to a shop vac. It sits on one side of the garage (shop) and is connected via pvc pipe to the miter saw, bench top belt sander and has a port for hooking up a hose to the router table, ROS, general cleanup of sawdust. It works just fine. Never anything to speak off in the shop vac bag or filter.
> 
> On the other side of the shop, I have a 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector that is piped up to the table saw. It also has a 4 inch port so I can hook up a hose to the drum sander or the planer.
> 
> ...


Have you ever connected the Thein to the shop vac, and as the only person I have seen with both, would you have a preference when hooked to a shop vac between the two?


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Taf said:


> Have you ever connected the Thein to the shop vac, and as the only person I have seen with both, would you have a preference when hooked to a shop vac between the two?


No, I haven't tried connecting the Thein to the shop vac. The connections are not the same size. And, I don't have room in my shop to set it up. Everything works just fine for me the way it is. Sorry.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Using a shop vac, you'll be better off using the dust deputy. It may sound counterintuitive, but the thien baffle needs the higher velocity of a larger dust collector to function properly. The smaller diameter dust deputy lends itself to the lower velocity of the shopvac.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Where do you get your velocity info?*



wericha said:


> Using a shop vac, you'll be better off using the dust deputy. It may sound counterintuitive, but the thien baffle needs the higher velocity of a larger dust collector to function properly. The smaller diameter dust deputy lends itself to the *lower velocity* of the shopvac.


I have always intuitively thought the shop vac has a higher velocity, *lower volume *CFM air stream than the dust collector which has a lower velocity, but higher volume CFM flow.

CFM is a volume/flow measurement where velocity in MPH, is a speed measurement. Here's some research I did on this subject:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.woodworking/2007-04/msg03415.html
Air velocity is 45 MPH in the above article.

Air speed/velocity is 180 MPH in this description of a Rigid shop vac blower:
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/16-gallon-wet-dry-vac-with-detachable-blower

Not wanting to start a whole different discussion, but if you have some references I would like to see them. :nerd2:


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

It is a function of both volume and velocity, and a shop vac won't provide enough of either for a thien baffle.

Try actually working in the shop with different configurations to find your own references rather than spending valuable time searching the internet for references. You'll be surprised what you might learn.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have been working in my own shop ...*

That why I said "intuitively" above. I didn't think my intuition was that far off, so I also did some research. 

Bill Pentz site confirms my MPH air speed:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/dc_basics.cfm#Airspeed
Quote:
Moving enough air is not enough. To capture the fine dust at the source the air engineering firms who deliver systems guaranteed to meet air quality standards found most tool hoods need upgraded. The reason is simple. The tips of our saw blades and cutters are launching dust at over 100 miles per hour and a typical *dust collection system has the air moving at less than sixty miles an hour.* This difference in speed means if we don't have hoods that either catch the dust or block it from getting launched it will escape. Looking at your table saw you need both an upper blade guard hood that moves 350 CFM and a lower cabinet hood which moves at least 440 CFM to meet OSHA standards. 

My own experimentation with over the blade dust collectors using a separate shop vac has proven that it works way better than the dust collector hose, even down sized for that application. 










Notice the under cabinet 4" runs that go to the DC. and the over arm 2" runs that go to the shop vac in this photo.

We may be saying the same thing, I donno? but CFM is not the same as MPH in my book.


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

Most of those dust deputies are perchon top of narrow high drums. Thats not a requirement. Mine is on top of a rectangular plastic box. The top of the deputy is not much above my knee height, it is not likely to topple anywhere.

I am about to build a bigger version from a traffic cone, but wont bother with the thien as its too bulky for my workshop.
I am completely happy with the dust deputy design, I just want a bigger version as my dust collecter has a 4" port and the deputy only 2"

Buy the deputy, and WEAR A MASK.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

sunnybob said:


> I am about to build a bigger version from a traffic cone


Saw some on the internet like that, but I just can't figure out how it doesn't just collapse. All the cones in my area at least are made of very flexible and soft material so that they can be hit by a car and spring back to shape. Do you have cones that are rigid or something?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*better with a shop vac?*



Taf said:


> Thanks for the link. I like the thread, but unfortunately it seems no one there has tried a Dust Deputy and a Thein, so it still leaves the question. They both obviously work,* but I am still wondering if one works better with a shop vac*.



Kenbo's separator is designed for a shop vac. The Dust deputy is also. Which is better than the other? How is anyone here gonna be able to determine that? You would need very scientific air flow and dust level measuring devices, most woodworkers don't have. The real test is the amount of fine dust left in the bucket. Kenbo's does very well in that regard. The advantage as he points out; is it's a DIY project and costs about $10.00 total. The DD is about $90, so there you go. 

You won't be able to measure the difference in either airborne particles or fine dust separated unless you do a scientific based experiment, and why bother? There are obviously plans in the web for the cyclone/DD type design if you want a DIY project for that design. 

So, you wanna buy one or build one?


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

Taf said:


> Saw some on the internet like that, but I just can't figure out how it doesn't just collapse. All the cones in my area at least are made of very flexible and soft material so that they can be hit by a car and spring back to shape. Do you have cones that are rigid or something?


Some cones are stronger than others, but its a fairly easy job to reinforce it with outside supports. Remember, the outside shape is completely irrelevant. As long as the inside is tapered and smooth youre in business. But even the straight sided drums work well with sufficient suction.

What you have to remember with all this, is that unless you are going to invest a HUGE amount of time and effort, either system is just a way to save you changing dust bags inside the collector too often. Dont get too hung up on the differences for a small occasional use hobby.

Get the deputy, its cheap and instant. See how it works. Then consider improvements. You learn a lot more by watching than by talking about it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Exactly!*

All the separators do is save you from cleaning the filter or brushing off the dust on the paper bag in the shop vac. Cleaning the filter is a royal pain and I take mine carefully outside and stand into the wind. I bang it inside the drum or on the concrete and get most of the loose dust out that way, but I still hate it. So for that reason it's worth having a separator ahead of the vac. 

Either type will work fine as the You Tube videos have shown, and there are a ton of them. It's a matter of splitting microns which works best.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I posted a picture of my Dust Deputy stand under my Project Pictures. 
When I clean my vacuum filter, I install another filter and clean the clogged filter with a water hose. I let the washed filter dry and store it for next time. 
I've tried the cheap generic filters from THD, but they didn't last. I use a 3M filter that last through many cleanings.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

I make a distinction between "dust" and "chips" - using a run of the mill 5 gal shop vac, I have no problem with the saw, sander, etc. but the planner creates a volume of chips that fills a 5 gal shop vacuum in 2-3 passes.

since I took the time to clean out everything right before, here's the results from two 10 ft lengths of 4/4 red oak planned down to 3/4:

the set up - "lid" from Woodcraft/Amazon - had to add some elbows&hose
the 31 gal steel trash can
the inside of the separator lid
the chips in the can
the dust in the shop vac
the filter collection.

the reality of it is, works just fine, as would many other style chip collectors. for stuff that generates large volumes of chips a large container is required. 

the dust / flour has to be "stopped" somewhere - the really fine stuff isn't going to fall out of an airstream except in an exquisitely designed/perfected cyclone separator. the question is which kind of filter do you prefer to clean......

if I were doing all-day volumes, I might think of a water trap for the fine dust / flour. that would have to be emptied & cleaned daily or one would have a slimy stinky mess right quick.

in the pix is 2.5 inch hose. if one does the calculations - regardless of cfm volume, air speed in fpm is 2.56 times faster at 2.5 inch vs. 4 inch - and for cyclonic separation, it's not about cfm, it's about velocity.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

Thanks to everyone! It sounds like the general consensus is "If it works, stick with it."

I may have to play around some with different methods. My inner geek just doesn't accept that they are the same. Geek is probably wrong... often is. LOL

Got a crazy strong 20 gallon "trash can" yesterday for my collector. Won't collapse and I won't have to re-enforce it at all. And it cost me the same as the 20 gallon metal trash can that I would have needed to add flat-stock hoops or something to to prevent collapse. The only problem... it is crazy heavy compared to regular trash cans. However, I don't think I will need to worry about it tipping over either. Definitely will need wheels though as I fear it's weight and 15 gallons of sawdust could get pretty heavy.
18 in. x 22 in. Sump Pump Basin


I also like the rim is really strong compared to regular trash cans.

I wonder if I am the only crazy person to go this rout?


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

TomCT2 said:


> since I took the time to clean out everything right before, here's the results from two 10 ft lengths of 4/4 red oak planned down to 3/4:


Thank you. The pictures really show what you are talking about. Just a plain top without baffle or anything is still getting a nice separation. I may add that to my list of methods to try out.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Taf said:


> It looks like a very tall version of the dust deputy, am I correct? What did you use for the housing?


Housing is made from a piece of 6" PVC and some PVC fittings. Build thread here:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/going-try-something-136162/



wericha said:


> Using a shop vac, you'll be better off using the dust deputy. It may sound counterintuitive, but the thien baffle needs the higher velocity of a larger dust collector to function properly. The smaller diameter dust deputy lends itself to the lower velocity of the shopvac.


Most likely why I was not happy with the Thein type.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

Alchymist said:


> Housing is made from a piece of 6" PVC and some PVC fittings.


That is seriously cool... did you ever determine if it is capturing more of the fine dust than the thein was?


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Taf said:


> That is seriously cool... did you ever determine if it is capturing more of the fine dust than the thein was?


Haven't had to clean or replace the old filter yet, which is a big improvement. It is capturing more of the fine stuff, how much is getting through yet I can't tell, but it is substantially less than before.


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

managed to find a traffic cone that hadnt been run over a thousand times. Not full sized, but a third bigger than the dust deputy.
My extraction ducting is 2 1/2" tubes which now stays that size through the cyclone, instead of the old reduction down to 2".
Working fine so far.
Very quick to make up and cost only a few scraps of plywood.


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## Taf (Jun 6, 2016)

sunnybob said:


> managed to find a traffic cone that hadnt been run over a thousand times. Not full sized, but a third bigger than the dust deputy.
> My extraction ducting is 2 1/2" tubes which now stays that size through the cyclone, instead of the old reduction down to 2".
> Working fine so far.
> Very quick to make up and cost only a few scraps of plywood.


What did you do to keep the cone from collapsing if you get a blocked suction?


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

Cones are a very strong shape, takes something special to collapse it. I doubt a small shop vac would be able to.
But i have modified the blast gates to each machine, and if the extraction gets blocked anywhere they start shrieking at me.


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

the story continues....
The small traffic cone worked really well. Very pleased with it. But then a full sized cone arrived at my house, so working on the principle of "bigger is better" i did it all over again.

So now the pipework is as follows. 2 1/2" pipework around the workshop, up to 3" into the cyclone.
3" out of the cyclone going immediately up to 4" into the dust collector.

Turn it on, and the cone collapses. Compare the two and the larger cone is only about half as thick plastic as the smaller one. DAMN!
Even with three blast gates fully open the cone is still compressing.

Tomorrow I will fibreglass the outside of the cone to strengthen it. See what happens then.
If the glassing works, this will be one hell of suction system.


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