# Help me choose a safe finish/stain!



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

Hey guys :vs_wave:
Hope all is well

I build and sell a lot of furniture and things and I have been thinking about the dangers I am putting myself in from inhaling chemical based stains (I use WATCO danish oil). I wear a respirator, but I'm not sure if it gets every bit of fumes (or even any).

I have decided I am no longer going to be using any stains/finishes that are dangerous/toxic to breath. I work in a garage and being exposed to VOCs/toxic fumes is not really something I want to do. Even if I was outdoors, I don't want to have any kind of slight exposure.

So I was wondering... What is the "best" natural, non-toxic, zero VOC (something you would use around your kids indoor) stain options? Anyone have a favorite, or at least a recommendation?


Any help greatly appreciated :thumbsup:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Rather than changing your finishes there are some things you can do to eliminate breathing it. They all have their health risks including the water based finishes. You could install a spray booth fan that would draw the fumes away from you outside. Then there there is an air supplied respirator which you could work with the most dangerous chemicals in the world and not ever smell it. It's a small compressor that you put somewhere where the air is clean and it pumps fresh air to the mask. 

The problem with Low or no Voc's is their water based. This creates a lot more elbow grease doing the same finish as you could it's solvent based counterpart. It raises the grain to where it takes a lot more between the coats sanding. Still a lot of them contain mercury which is about as much health risk as the solvents.


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Rather than changing your finishes there are some things you can do to eliminate breathing it. They all have their health risks including the water based finishes. You could install a spray booth fan that would draw the fumes away from you outside. Then there there is an air supplied respirator which you could work with the most dangerous chemicals in the world and not ever smell it. It's a small compressor that you put somewhere where the air is clean and it pumps fresh air to the mask.
> 
> The problem with Low or no Voc's is their water based. This creates a lot more elbow grease doing the same finish as you could it's solvent based counterpart. It raises the grain to where it takes a lot more between the coats sanding. Still a lot of them contain mercury which is about as much health risk as the solvents.






I also wanted to change my finish because Danish Oil takes so long to apply and fully dry/cure. It has to be rubbed in and wiped off all by hand and repeated multiple times... It is a great looking finish, but when it comes to making as many products to sell as possible, I need something that is very easy/quick to apply with a brush or something that wont slow me down so much. Also, I have children and animals that are slightly exposed/near when I finish my wood... I do not want to create any toxic fumes, even if I do have the best respirator/air purifier. A lot of solvent stains release VOCs and other chemicals into the air when they are drying/curing. Sometimes when it is raining outside, and my garage to too dusty from other projects, I bring the almost dry stained boards inside my home to store/finish curing. The Danish oil takes at-least a few days before it is completely cured. I don't have an area to store these curing shelves besides in my home. This are some of the main reasons I need a safe non-toxic wood stain. The raising of the grain isn't really a huge deal, since I make "rustic" products.



I was thinking about something like this... http://eco-buildingproducts.com/pro...WBjYqPVOYu-7-kzQ-MyScg8AzT0ePkvNyYaArRH8P8HAQ

What about homemade stains? any good recipes for natural stains? The colors I need is a dark brown and a medium brown.

I also thought about using a brown paint thinned with water to stain the wood. Then I would add a natural clear coat over that... What do you guys think about that?

Any thoughts on wood dyes?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Hey guys :vs_wave:
> Hope all is well
> 
> I build and sell a lot of furniture and things and I have been thinking about the dangers I am putting myself in from inhaling chemical based stains (I use WATCO danish oil). I wear a respirator, but I'm not sure if it gets every bit of fumes (or even any).
> ...


Anything that is a water bourn material is safe. 

There are also low VOC oil based stains out there if you want to stay with oil stains. Also look for formaldehyde free oil coatings.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> I also wanted to change my finish because Danish Oil takes so long to apply and fully dry/cure. It has to be rubbed in and wiped off all by hand and repeated multiple times... It is a great looking finish, but when it comes to making as many products to sell as possible, I need something that is very easy/quick to apply with a brush or something that wont slow me down so much. Also, I have children and animals that are slightly exposed/near when I finish my wood... I do not want to create any toxic fumes, even if I do have the best respirator/air purifier. A lot of solvent stains release VOCs and other chemicals into the air when they are drying/curing. Sometimes when it is raining outside, and my garage to too dusty from other projects, I bring the almost dry stained boards inside my home to store/finish curing. The Danish oil takes at-least a few days before it is completely cured. I don't have an area to store these curing shelves besides in my home. This are some of the main reasons I need a safe non-toxic wood stain. The raising of the grain isn't really a huge deal, since I make "rustic" products.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The safecoat finish may be safer but not completely safe. It has plastic resins, alcohol and ammonia in it. 

The problem you might get into making homemade stain is a lot of substances are not very colorfast. I mean you could use food coloring for stain but it wouldn't last. The same can be said for a lot of dyes. They don't penetrate deep enough into the wood for durability. You are correct you could use brown latex paint and thin it with water however the effect it would have on the wood would be very bland. 

Personally I think if eliminating the VOC's is first priority I would give up finishing altogether or sub-contract it to someone else. You just can't do quick and easy and do green too.


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> The safecoat finish may be safer but not completely safe. It has plastic resins, alcohol and ammonia in it.
> 
> The problem you might get into making homemade stain is a lot of substances are not very colorfast. I mean you could use food coloring for stain but it wouldn't last. The same can be said for a lot of dyes. They don't penetrate deep enough into the wood for durability. You are correct you could use brown latex paint and thin it with water however the effect it would have on the wood would be very bland.
> 
> Personally I think if eliminating the VOC's is first priority I would give up finishing altogether or sub-contract it to someone else. You just can't do quick and easy and do green too.




Do you think a food coloring stain/dye/homemade stain would last if it was sealed with a clear top-coat after? (the clear coat will also be as natural/nontoxic as I can find)

Could I maybe use some kind of natural 'carrier oil' such as olive oil or something to make the color/stain more effective?


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Do you think a food coloring stain/dye/homemade stain would last if it was sealed with a clear top-coat after? (the clear coat will also be as natural/nontoxic as I can find)
> 
> Could I maybe use some kind of natural 'carrier oil' such as olive oil or something to make the color/stain more effective?


No, that was my point, the food coloring would stain the wood but the color would be prone to fade no matter what you put over it. The dye stain would be much better however it isn't as colorfast as an oil stain. 

I know this isn't what you have in mind but if you would stain your projects with an oil stain unless it was especially humid could be topcoated in an hour. Then a vinyl sealer could be sprayed on and in an hour could be topcoated with a pre-catalyzed lacquer and your done. The lacquer will usually dry to touch within 10 minutes so dust isn't an issue. It could then be set outside to finish curing. Usually after three or four hours the off gassing is so low it doesn't bother most people. I often refinish an entire kitchen and spray the cabinets inside someone's house and they are able to close their house up that evening. It comes down to the level of VOC's. Smelling a trace of these finishes in the house isn't going to hurt anyone. The issue has been blown out of proportion. I've been working with these finishes at a professional level for more than 40 years and it hasn't hurt me.


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> No, that was my point, the food coloring would stain the wood but the color would be prone to fade no matter what you put over it. The dye stain would be much better however it isn't as colorfast as an oil stain.
> 
> I know this isn't what you have in mind but if you would stain your projects with an oil stain unless it was especially humid could be topcoated in an hour. Then a vinyl sealer could be sprayed on and in an hour could be topcoated with a pre-catalyzed lacquer and your done. The lacquer will usually dry to touch within 10 minutes so dust isn't an issue. It could then be set outside to finish curing. Usually after three or four hours the off gassing is so low it doesn't bother most people. I often refinish an entire kitchen and spray the cabinets inside someone's house and they are able to close their house up that evening. It comes down to the level of VOC's. Smelling a trace of these finishes in the house isn't going to hurt anyone. The issue has been blown out of proportion. I've been working with these finishes at a professional level for more than 40 years and it hasn't hurt me.



Thanks for the info. Is there an oil based stain that is at least lower in VOCs than others?
Would water based stains be a safer option?

I'll probably end up buying a nice respirator/gas mask for the fumes. I was also thinking about maybe making a spray booth (like the video below) once I move to my new house. 





I would think that spraying would release maximum fumes into the air don't you think? I was planning on just using some high quality brushes and cleaning them for reuse. I suppose spraying would be faster for something as big as kitchen cabinets. I usually am finishing shelving and table tops myself.

Any recommendations for a good respirator/gas mask?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Thanks for the info. Is there an oil based stain that is at least lower in VOCs than others?
> Would water based stains be a safer option?


Here is a low VOC oil stain product line:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...stains/wood-classics-250-interior-oil-stain/?

As for respirators, look into 3M products. I use one like this at times:
http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-...539+8720550+8720785+8726639+3294780295&rt=rud

I myself hate using water based stains. The only water based material I have used and liked is a self seal topcoat, thats about it.

Here is some literature on the product:


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

RandyReed said:


> Here is a low VOC oil stain product line:
> http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...stains/wood-classics-250-interior-oil-stain/?
> 
> As for respirators, look into 3M products. I use one like this at times:
> ...


Thanks for that 

Danish oil has a VOC content of 275. I read on that link that sherwin williams has 250.

Is there any way to go lower VOC? What is the lowest it goes?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Thanks for that
> 
> Danish oil has a VOC content of 275. I read on that link that sherwin williams has 250.
> 
> Is there any way to go lower VOC? What is the lowest it goes?


I think right now 250 is the lowest VOC among oil based stains.


----------



## Rdog (Nov 14, 2013)

I have not tried it, but what about the vinegar/steel wool and water DIY stain. I'd think that's pretty safe, and knowing how sometimes oak and metal end up, it may be a stain that sticks around...at least in some types of wood vs. others.

Finish with 100% Tung oil (if you like oil finishes) and maybe top with bees wax. I'd think you'd be good to go. 

Someone must have tried it already here, and would know better. (I'm also interested in getting away from all the nasty additives)


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

Rdog said:


> I have not tried it, but what about the vinegar/steel wool and water DIY stain. I'd think that's pretty safe, and knowing how sometimes oak and metal end up, it may be a stain that sticks around...at least in some types of wood vs. others.
> 
> Finish with 100% Tung oil (if you like oil finishes) and maybe top with bees wax. I'd think you'd be good to go.
> 
> Someone must have tried it already here, and would know better. (I'm also interested in getting away from all the nasty additives)


Yeah I was thinking about trying a steel wool vinegar coffee mix. But I don't know if I could ever get it dark/rich enough using that mix. I'll be trying. 

I use pine to build everything. 









What about a brown paint mixed with 100% tung oil???


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

RandyReed said:


> I think right now 250 is the lowest VOC among oil based stains.


Thanks I'll look into Sherwin Williams stains.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Thanks for the info. Is there an oil based stain that is at least lower in VOCs than others?
> Would water based stains be a safer option?
> 
> I'll probably end up buying a nice respirator/gas mask for the fumes. I was also thinking about maybe making a spray booth (like the video below) once I move to my new house.
> ...


My computer really doesn't do video. I've made spray booths before with plastic and they work fine. The only thing I didn't catch is what they did for an exhaust fan. Unless you use water based finishes exclusively it's real important you get an actual spray booth fan. It either has the motor outside the booth or has a sealed explosion proof motor.

For what you are doing a 3M disposable respirator will filter all the fumes completely. You won't smell a thing while working with any of the finishes discussed here if the mask is fitted to you right. What you have to do is put the mask on and put the palm over the exhaust of the mask and blow into it. If you feel the mask pressurize it's right. If you feel someplace where air is escaping in any volume you need to try to adjust that out. 

At the time of application spraying a finish creates more VOC's but the finish goes on thinner so it dries faster and releases more VOC's at that time. Even a stain releases less VOC's after it's sprayed and wiped off. Spraying a finish will reduce the labor you are putting into a product a lot. This is the route you need to go if you are looking for quick and easy. 

It would probably be best if you would buy a small can of water based stain and see what it looks like. If you have been using a danish oil finish you may not like the appearance of a water based stain. Then after it dries feel how rough the wood gets from being wet.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WilkersonsCreations said:


> Yeah I was thinking about trying a steel wool vinegar coffee mix. But I don't know if I could ever get it dark/rich enough using that mix. I'll be trying.


The problem with doing the vinegar/steel wool recipe is that the color is often uneven across a larger piece of furniture as you can not control the effect. The tannin's in the wood effect the outcome of the final color. Ive seen maple, for example, turn color from Grey on one piece to black on another piece. Unless your doing some type of rustic finish, I wouldn't go that route.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> It would probably be best if you would buy a small can of water based stain and see what it looks like. If you have been using a danish oil finish *you may not like the appearance of a water based stain*. Then after it dries feel how rough the wood gets from being wet.


This is the reason I do not like water based stains. Seems to me that the color disappears while it dries. If your color matching, you may think you have the color right, but as it dries down and then you top coat it, you are often too light and on the cold side of the color. I can match oil stains and dye stains alot quicker than water based ones.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> This is the reason I do not like water based stains. Seems to me that the color disappears while it dries. If your color matching, you may think you have the color right, but as it dries down and then you top coat it, you are often too light and on the cold side of the color. I can match oil stains and dye stains alot quicker than water based ones.


I don't like them because an oil stain gives a deep rich color where the water stains have a bland pastel appearance. That's just me though. Someone else may not like the grain to pop.


----------



## sancho57 (Oct 23, 2011)

Have you thought about using a NGR stain and a shellac finish. You can wipe, brush or spray shellac. It can be tinted to complement any color stain or use a blond shellac for a clear coat.

You can use s water base stain and go over it with a dewaxed shellac to. Shellac dries very fast and will burn in with the previous coat. Use 3 coats lightly sand w/ 400 the put a coat of wax over the shellac.


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

RandyReed said:


> The problem with doing the vinegar/steel wool recipe is that the color is often uneven across a larger piece of furniture as you can not control the effect. The tannin's in the wood effect the outcome of the final color. Ive seen maple, for example, turn color from Grey on one piece to black on another piece. Unless your doing some type of rustic finish, I wouldn't go that route.


I do finish all my peices with a rustic look, but I like to have a dark rich brown walnut color rather than a pale greyish brown


----------



## WilkersonsCreations (Mar 2, 2016)

I used a Minwax water based stain (provincial) and it looks decent. But on the back it still says warnings about causing brain damage and California says it causes cancer and all that... 

Do water based stains at least have less solvents/vocs?


----------

