# Restoring a rusty Delta 34-441



## pandamonium54 (Oct 26, 2013)

Wanting to get into woodworking, didn't own much, learned/researched by lurking around forums and the web. Finally bought this saw on my local CL. Spent $250 on a package including this rusty Delta 34-441, a unifence (that needs a new handle), some rusty outfeed rollers, an incra LS standard system router table fence, dado blades, TS blades. Overall probably worth it but there's a fair amount of rust.

I just used $4 of WD40 and a maroon scotchbrite to clean ~90% of the rust off one of the outfeed rollers. Now I'm wondering if I'll end up burning through $50 of WD40 to clean the table top. Wanted some input on how to best tackle this. Here's what I'm working with.













Looking into electrolysis vs sandpaper vs other products. My goal is to get all the rust out, and clean things up nicely. I've got some ideas for an under table dust-collection shroud and maybe a riving knife type of assembly. My fear is that I don't have a clue how deep this rust is, and I don't want to ruin the miter slots trying to clean it up. Ideas?


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## divingfe (Apr 15, 2013)

Try buying wd40 @ HD OR LOWES in gallon cans. WAYcheaper. If scotchbrite works too slow, then try various grits of wet/dry sandpaper. Or, use 50/50 water & Simple Green. Elbow grease and love😊😊


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

As a chemist, I personally find the idea of electrolysis appealing: non-destructive, and minimal elbow grease- let electrons do the work for you!

That said, as a disclaimer, I've never used electrolysis in restoring a large piece of cast iron, such as a table saw top. I've seen sites describing extensions of the "bucket" method, but using a larger tank, such as a cheap plastic "kiddie" pool. I also vaguely recall, but can't locate, someone describing a way of placing a towel soaked in the electrolyte solution on the table saw surface, and a flat sheet of steel placed on top of the towel as the sacrificial anode.

You could also consider scraping with razor blades: http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95349

Good luck- looks like a worthwhile project.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Id ditch the wd40 for the table top. Sure, itll work, but good luck reattaching your arm after it falls off. Personally, id grab a RO sander with a 180 disc and go to town. Little bit more destructive, but also way faster at cleaning the rust off, especially if the rust is a little bit more than surface rust. Another safer and less destructive method is naval jelly and a scotchbrite pad. Itll take the rust off pretty well, but youll still want to do a little sanding to shiny up the surface.

Normally i also like electrolysis for rust removal, but for something like a table saw table, it could be a little unwieldy. I am rather interested in the towel method jdonhowe mentioned. It soulds like itd work pretty well, but ive never tried it.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

I would go with evaporust. Spray it entire top down, let it sit for a little. The evaporust will get a little tacky. Spray it down with some simple green and scotch pad it.

That how I did it on my table at least and it worked out well for me. The evaporust is not cheap but you don't need to drown the top in it. It is also good for cleaning rusted parts that can fit into containers. It is reusable as well.

Good luck and post picks once you get her cleaned up.

Johnny


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

This guy suggest using the towel method on this site

http://www.rickswoodshopcreations.com/miscellaneous/rust_removal.htm

"For flat objects like saws try using towels soaked in the electrolyte on each side of the saw, hook the battery charger to the saw and place a flat anode on the towel atop the saw. This method is very inefficient and will require moving the anode around to various locations as the rust abates but it is still a means of cleaning a saw without removing the handle."

Here's another

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/QuickTricks/RustRemoval/rustremoval.html

While I would do it for my table saw, it appears it would work.


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## Fastback (Sep 2, 2012)

Here is a quick way to remove rust. I use a single edge razor to scrape the rust away. Use a holder and some fresh razor blades set at about 45 degrees and you'll be surprised how quickly you can clean up the top. This is done dry with nothing added. Change blades as needed. Once done you will be surprise how nicely it can be cleaned with scuff pads and maybe a bit of WD40. 

Paul


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

pandamonium54 said:


> Wanting to get into woodworking, didn't own much, learned/researched by lurking around forums and the web. Finally bought this saw on my local CL. Spent $250 on a package including this rusty Delta 34-441, a unifence (that needs a new handle), some rusty outfeed rollers, an incra LS standard system router table fence, dado blades, TS blades. Overall probably worth it but there's a fair amount of rust.
> 
> I just used $4 of WD40 and a maroon scotchbrite to clean ~90% of the rust off one of the outfeed rollers. Now I'm wondering if I'll end up burning through $50 of WD40 to clean the table top. Wanted some input on how to best tackle this. Here's what I'm working with.
> 
> ...


wd-40 a waist of time, get this RUST-OFF use it out side or good ventilation , this stuff will make that old iron look like new, and also use this after T-9 , you can get it on line or sears has it now ? their are other company's that carries this also here is the link to read up on it , this is mfd. by boeing air craft co. the link http://www.sears.com/boeshield-t-9-rust-protection-cleaner/p-00928468000P


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

I like to use a chemical rust remover and a scothbrite pad (or steel wool).

You can use the Zep brand Calcium, Lime, and Rust remover sold at Home Depot, usually sold in a blue container. You can also use 'The Must for Rust', also sold at HD.

I prefer using a chemical just because it will get into any 'pores' in the steel without having to grind the whole top down.

I protect the cleaned surface with Minwax finishing wax.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Cast iron is different than steel in that when it rusts it makes a oxidized layer on the outside that keeps the rest from rusting in deeper. Sanding it off with sand paper will reveal you haven't actually sanded into the casting much at all. I like using chemicals too. I use acid because it rips through the rust like candy. Then I sand with 180 and 220. My bet is you will still see the milling marks when your through it all. 

After that you have some truly virgin cast iron and will need to protect it right away. I live in the sub tropics so I use WD 40. I need something that works for a long time. Contrary to what others say, WD 40 does in fact soak in and dries. It also contains zero silicone. 

Al


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## pandamonium54 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bought some evapo-rust- haven't used it- still trying to disassemble this damn thing. Planning to use a combination of your suggestions and some stuff I found. Going to give the thing a light scraping with a steel putty knife, light scrub and rinse with mineral sprits once, then soap & water 3-4times, then acetone once. Then I'll give it the evaporust treatment. But I can't do that until I finish taking this thing apart.

As far as I can tell, I have a few stubborn roll pins that are making disassembly very difficult.

Part no 132 at the parts listing/website

Not sure that I did the smart thing here, but I don't think I damaged much and I got 1 of them out. Basically took a hammer and a drill bit holder and tapped it back and forth with WD40 lubricating it in both directions. Then I stuck a precision screwdriver down the middle and hammered it through. Doesn't look like I bent the shaft it was attached to. I have no clue how I'm going to get it back IN though.

Some followup questions for you guys:

1) Did I mess up with my roll pin removal "technique". If so, how can I fix it and how should I remove the other pins?
2) Evaporust says it only works on rust. The round bars connecting the trunnions are pretty rusty, and I want to give this thing a nice deep clean. If a clean cast iron tabletop is supposed to be a nice shiny silver, why are the cast iron trunnions deep black? Should evaporust be safe on the bars and the parts of the trunnions attached? (I want to avoid fully disassembling the trunnion/shaft thing, since it sounds like I can really screw up alignment if I do that.)


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

To knock the roll pins out use a punch just slightly smaller than outside diameter of pin. To install line up holes, you may have to turn one part 180 degrees for perfect line up, drive pin in with hammer. A tapered punch helps to get them lined up.
I find with smaller shafts it helps to use a second large hammer on other side sort of like an anvil to give it support.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Good advise Frank.

WD40 sometimes isn't the best lubricant. There are other products to aid in removing stuck parts like plain old oil. You might also try a little heat. 

Shiny slick smooth tops are great. Cast iron in and of itself seems to be one of the best surfaces for sliding wood on. Powermatic makes their tops mirror smooth.

Al


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

*wd-40 info*

I have the erge everytime i see someone using WD-40 strickly as a lubricant..

it's not a gaudamn lubricant... AT ALL.. it was never intended to be lubricant.. and never will be a lubricant.

if your intention was to use a lubricant... you would NEED to purchase the silicone based WD-40 .. but even that isn't that great of a lubricant..

It may "contain" an oil. but it's for the purpose of repelling and cleaning... IT IS NOT REALLY A LUBRICANT for sake.

IT'S NOT EVEN SOLD as a lubricant... unless the idiots at major stores or some stores put it in that area because they are totally ****ing idiots.

it's a water dispersant... cleaner.... reason why it's Called WD..... 40 stands for the "attempt number" to produce a working product.

To often i see references or suggestions to use WD-40 on something for the main purpose of "lubrication"... when in fact it can do major damage to the product....

lets take a standard house fan for example.

Fan is "seizing" up a little or grinding a little bit..

the first thing that tends to happen is someone uses WD-40 on it... if i catch them in time, i tell them it's a bad idea to rely on it.. and usually other people say otherwise "you'll see" or similare... i knowing the outcome..... let them proceed to destroy something.

they use the WD-40 on it.... "cleaning" the debree out of the fan if it had any... and with the ultra lightweight oil that is present in the WD-40, the fan work fine... i'm then told by such a person that "see... told you it was fine" and i try to explain why.. and are thusly ignored.

WD-40 dries... leaving an extremely thin and quickly broken down film of oil residue..... so while the fan is indeed lubricated.... it's not intended to last at all.... a day later the fan is found burnt up and seized solid beyond repair.

At which point i say "tried to tell you"... but they ignore it and remain confused, later repeating the same mistake with numerous other things.

I feel the need to try to "educate" some people when they try or intent to use a product for a purpose that it was never intended to be used for. And it is futher popetuated by more and more idiots telling others to use it for purposes it's never intended for.. causing damage and distruction in the end.

WORSE YET, is people don't know quite often what the intended purpose is..

It's best intention is what is says it is... water dispersant..

but it works great as a cleaner as well....

Great for eletrical equipment and plugs and such....


NOT A LUBRICANT... never was and never will be.... stop insisting it's something that it isn't...

AT BEST it's a very VERY poor temporary lubricant.. nothing more.... It's a "dry" substance otherwise.. the complete opposite of lubricant.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I should probably post this in Tips or here in Power Tools as a new thread, but this is how I removed the rust from a Delta 6" jointer, a Powermatic 6" jointer, and a PM66 table saw top - 

Jointer before I started - sprayed with WD40 as soon as I got it into my possession and did the electrolysis the next day. I don't think this is necessary but I couldn't just let it sit there and not put _something_ on it.








Towel soaked in water & baking soda mix, lightly wrung out, sacrificial metal plate on towel, Mahogany blocks to make sure they were down good, then applied current from battery charger. After about 4-5 minutes the towel was dry and I unplugged the charger.








Then took a rag and wiped most of the rust off, used a little Scotch-Brite, and took this jointer bed from rust to what you see in about 10 minutes total.








Also did the cutterhead the same way except I used bailing wire - 
Cutterhead wrapped









Completed


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Great job Di.

Thanks for the pictures. Seems to work well. Is the solution a no brainer of can you screw it up?

Al


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Great job Di.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures. Seems to work well. Is the solution a no brainer of can you screw it up?
> 
> Al


For the baking soda and water mix? Seems like I used about 1/2 cup in a couple gallons of water. I don't think it's that critical, i.e. if more baking soda makes the process faster or anything like that.

I can see the pail in the background in the photo of the bed with the rag removed and it appears the 5 gallon pail is a little less than half full.

The key is watching the meter on the charger. When you start it will go up to 4-5 amps and then it will begin dropping. When it hits 0 amps or close then I unplug and remove the rag. It doesn't do any more electrolysis once the water is gone and that happens in just minutes - neat process.

Here's the cutterhead before - 








And after -


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

A 4 1/2" disc grinder/sander with a paint stripper pad is the best instrument I have found for cleaning very rusty whatevers. (Even very good for cleaning the running gear on a boat. Makes the bronze props sign like new.)

 RAPID STRIP WHEEL by NORTON 

I have gotten them from Lowes for less then this Amazon price. However I have not bought one for over a year. Since I sold my boat I do not use as many.

It will not remove the deep stains on the top of your table saw, but it will remove the rust in no time without damage to the saw. I use a little WFD-40 for lubricant. Be careful though, if you use too much it will be slung around. If it will clean barnacles off a boat prop, a little rust is no challenge.

Will not take you 5 minutes to clean the top of the most rusted saw you can find. Also good on irregular shapes, but hard to get into corners.

George


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

difalkner said:


> For the baking soda and water mix? Seems like I used about 1/2 cup in a couple gallons of water. I don't think it's that critical, i.e. if more baking soda makes the process faster or anything like that.
> 
> I can see the pail in the background in the photo of the bed with the rag removed and it appears the 5 gallon pail is a little less than half full.
> 
> ...


Will this work on deep rust also, I have a #8c Stanley plane I need to clean. The rust isn't pitting but it is deep. Maybe this and the pad George uses will work good.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

BigJim said:


> Will this work on deep rust also, I have a #8c Stanley plane I need to clean. The rust isn't pitting but it is deep. Maybe this and the pad George uses will work good.


 
I have done electrolysis on my hand planes and it works. I have done the soak method which impacts the japaning. I would think this method should work well, especially if you don't want to take off the japaning.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

I've done the soak method on a few hand planes, and its always worked pretty well for me. Still takes a little bit of scrubbing to get all the grime off, but it takes care of the rust without issue. I'd also like to mention that somehow, I've never had an issue with it taking off the japanning. By all means it should affect it, but it never does for me


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

> Will this work on deep rust also, I have a #8c Stanley plane I need to clean. The rust isn't pitting but it is deep. Maybe this and the pad George uses will work good.


The major advantage of electrolysis (unlike mechanical rust removal) is that none of the iron is removed. Instead, iron oxide is converted back to metallic iron in the same place that it rusted. So, you don't run the risk of creating uneven surfaces by abrading or scraping unevenly. Also, it can be used to remove rust from hard to reach areas, such as recesses in planes or other hand tools.

It cannot replace iron from rust that has flaked off, so with severe rust you can't expect a like new smooth surface. Also, as mentioned, paint may be removed if it can dissolve in the electrolyte solution.




> Great job Di.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures. Seems to work well. Is the solution a no brainer of can you screw it up?


+1 on the pictures and comments. Just to add my .02:

The electrolyte solution (baking soda in water) acts only to transport electrons from the sacrificial anode (the plate on top) to the rusted surface. The higher the concentration of the baking soda, more current will flow. This means that the rust reversal will occur more quickly, but you might also overload your battery charger (or whatever source of DC current you're using). 

Also, the current flow generates heat, which caused the water to evaporate. While it looks as though Di got good results by the time the water had evaporated, with deep rust what you can do is stop the power, and re-wet the towel with water (not more electrolyte solution, which could give too concentrated a solution). Then restart the power.

Since electrolysis will work only where current will flow, recessed areas, such as miter slots, also need to be in contact with the electrolyte solution, either by jamming part of the towel in the slot, or maybe damming up the ends to create a trough containing solution. BTW, you can protect surfaces that you _don't_ want to be exposed to electrolysis (e.g. painted areas) by selectively waterproofing them while treating, such as with a coat of wax.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Another quick note is that you want to make sure you treat it quickly as flash rust sets in quickly. I didn't see that mentioned in our previous discussion.

Also, I used washing soda not baking soda in my solution. That's what my research taught me to use.

epicfail, good deal on not loosing the japaning. That is one reason I typically use electrolysis, I want to get it completly cleaned off. I would then repaint it.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

abetrman said:


> epicfail, good deal on not loosing the japaning. That is one reason I typically use electrolysis, I want to get it completly cleaned off. I would then repaint it.


Crap deal actually, I started doing electralyis because I heard it stripped off japanning. As it stands though, somehow it never has for me...


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

BigJim said:


> Will this work on deep rust also, I have a #8c Stanley plane I need to clean. The rust isn't pitting but it is deep. Maybe this and the pad George uses will work good.


This looked pretty deep and is just fine now, works like a champ!

Before - 








After -


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

That is amazing, I will give this a try, thanks so much, fellows, for the information. I will post some pictures before and after.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> Crap deal actually, I started doing electralyis because I heard it stripped off japanning. As it stands though, somehow it never has for me...


Not sure why that would be. Now to be clear, it has never just took it right off, I did have to put in a little work, but it sure made it very easy.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Pandamonium...how's the process coming along?


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## pandamonium54 (Oct 26, 2013)

Plenty of pics taken, though not yet ready to be posted - heh. I think I'll make a new post detailing the restoration process when it's all done. In the past week, I've disassembled the whole table saw during my free time. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to clean the trunnions though. I know it's cast iron, but I don't know why they are black and what that means for my cleaning options. 

I ended up buying 1gal of evaporust and everything I need for electrolysis. I wasn't able to find a container that would work with evaporust very well. The best idea was a washer/dryer tray, which was just a bit too shallow (The tray is 2" deep- it might have worked if I put the table in upside down, but I wasn't sure how the edge rust (yes there is some) would react since I wasn't going to be able to submerge it in evaporust. I just turned on the battery charger tonight for some electrolysis action. We'll see how it goes. Right now it's only flowing at like 3 amps. I used way too much water and probably didn't dissolve enough calcium carbonate. I figure at this rate, I might just clean off the rebar once or twice this week and check up on it next weekend.

Long term goal is to use shellac to seal this thing. Some questions for you guys:

Any idea for why the trunnions are a deep black and how I can clean them up?

What's a good dry lube for the blade lift/tilt mechanism?

Is it crazy to shellac a freshly cleaned cast iron top? Plan B is Boeshield T9 and then Johnson's paste wax. My main concerns are that I don't want to clean this again, and I don't want to worry about wax transferring onto wood and affecting finishes.

Any ideas for a good source of touchup paint? Right now the plan is to bring a piece to a paint store and have them match. The Sherwin Williams high-seas gray was discontinued.

Any recommendations for a mobile base? 

Anyone own a Delta 34-445 (the one that came with a 30" Unifence)? If so, did it come with a side table, or were you supposed to buy your own stock and make it? My CL package has 2 legs and the unfence, but no side table.

Ordered some table PALS, new arbor/motor bearings, and a link belt. Want to keep sawdust away from the insides (especially the corners of the cabinet). Any ideas for an aftermarket blade shroud? (under table) I think some guy here or on SMC made one and didn't feel like it helped much. I think it would help if it was paired with good enough suction and want to give it a whirl.

Looking at a BORK vs trying to DIY something with linear rails. Seems like if I stalk eBay, I can pick up linear bearings for something reasonable. Anyone have experience?


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

To chime in my opinion on a few questions, personally, i can't see the reason to shellac a table saw. I can understand wanting to prevent runs and minimizing friction, but I've always had perfect results with just paste wax. As far as the trunnions being black, generally its a special protective coating of rust called black rust. This differs from regular rust by actually acting as a protective barrier and not letting rust penetrate and further. As far as a lube for the trunnions, I again pitch paste wax. Cheap and has always worked great for me. Other options I can think of are lithium grease or graphite. 

If you do wax the table, I honestly wouldn't worry about it transferring to a project. Properly done, there's not really enough to transfer from the table to the piece

I'd also avoid electrolysing the trunnions. It'll remove the protective layer I'd imagine you could redo it, I believe the process is called bluing, but unless you have some deep red rust I wouldnt bother going through the trouble


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

pandamonium54 said:


> Plenty of pics taken, though not yet ready to be posted - heh. I think I'll make a new post detailing the restoration process when it's all done. In the past week, I've disassembled the whole table saw during my free time. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to clean the trunnions though. I know it's cast iron, but I don't know why they are black and what that means for my cleaning options.
> 
> I ended up buying 1gal of evaporust and everything I need for electrolysis. I wasn't able to find a container that would work with evaporust very well. The best idea was a washer/dryer tray, which was just a bit too shallow (The tray is 2" deep- it might have worked if I put the table in upside down, but I wasn't sure how the edge rust (yes there is some) would react since I wasn't going to be able to submerge it in evaporust. I just turned on the battery charger tonight for some electrolysis action. We'll see how it goes. Right now it's only flowing at like 3 amps. I used way too much water and probably didn't dissolve enough calcium carbonate. I figure at this rate, I might just clean off the rebar once or twice this week and check up on it next weekend.
> 
> ...



i would only use T-9 and not wax, the T-9 has all you need, i use that on all my bed's and never any surface rust, also rust-off also comes in the pack of T-9 , i have used this and it works very well also , i my self wont use wax ,because if any get on the wood and isn't sanded out the finish will not stick or finish right my 2 cents

is it crazy to shellac a freshly cleaned cast iron top? Plan B is Boeshield T9 and then Johnson's paste wax. My main concerns are that I don't want to clean this again, and I don't want to worry about wax transferring onto wood and affecting finishes.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Wow. I love shellac but wouldnt use it on work surface of cast iron. The fancy spray can works fine, for awhile but didn't last for me. After reading the test results I Fine Woodworking, just use WD40. Water displacement is what it's made for. 

Al


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

> Right now it's only flowing at like 3 amps. I used way too much water and probably didn't dissolve enough calcium carbonate.


Just curious why you chose calcium carbonate as the electrolyte, rather than sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is not very soluble in water- lime deposits in plumbing is calcium carbonate. Any more CaCO3 you add to your tank will not dissolve, so will not increase conductivity and current flow. Sodium salts are highly soluble.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Pandamonium...can you hear that. It's the sound of the forum talking about you not putting pictures up of an awesome rehabed tool.

JK...is everything coming along well?


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## pandamonium54 (Oct 26, 2013)

haha - things are coming along slowly. I spent way too long trying to disassemble the arbor assembly last week (the arbor belt-side nut refused to loosen). Ended up requiring a tiny amount of silicone lubricant spray. Anyway, now I'm waiting for some new bearings, and one of the guys over at SMC is helping machine a couple of spacers and a bearing bracket for me so that I can continue this project.

The electrolysis did disrupt paint on the sides and underside of the table (the sides came off clean, but the bottom is very spotty), so I decided to strip it all and repaint. Stripping the paint off the bottom of the table is taking forever with all the nooks and crannies, but that's nearly done and I'll be able to repaint it this weekend or next weekend.

Gotta be honest, this project is taking a lot more time and expense than I expected. I'll probably run the numbers after everything is done and realize I should have just bought a Ridgid or Craftsman for ~$500 and been on my merry way. But with this project, I'll know the ins and outs of the saw and I'll get to mess around with a Unifence for a while.

To do:
Finish stripping paint
Repaint underside of table
Touch up rusty spots on the stand
Decide on a mobile base
Clean up the unifence.
Re-clean the unifence rail (it's got a thin layer of debris from rust sanding on it)
Reassemble arbor
Devise riving knife/blade shroud dust collection mechanism
Find schematics for right side wing and find a way to integrate a router plate to it
Rewire switch (replacing it with a paddle switch and moving all wiring outside so that the motor can be removed easily)
Reassemble and use


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