# Questions about pretreating and staining reclaimed pine



## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Folks,

You may have seen some of my earlier posts about my first woodworking project, this Stickley style table. Your help has been invaluable and very much appreciated so I hope you will indulge a couple more questions about staining, blotching, pre-treating, etc.

I am getting ready to stain the table. The trestle is made of newer spruce purchased from my local lumber yard. The top is 150 years old (or so) reclaimed pine from an 1800's Philadelphia Mill (the beams I believe), which I purchased from a guy that sells reclaimed lumber.

My Question:
I have heard that “blotching” is a problem with pine and have done some reading and even watched some YouTube videos like “Pine with Charles Nell” to figure out what to do next.

Given the various methods I’m curious what the kind folks of this message board might and welcome any specific products, brand and insight to help me avoid the dreaded blotching.

Some notes

The reclaimed/old wood (the top), appears to have a very tight grain and is fairly light weight. The guy at the reclaimed wood place said it was Spruce.
The trestle is made from the new lumberyard spruce; still oozes a teeny amount of sap.
I’m thinking a darker stain on the trestle and a lighter color for the top like a golden or honey and a darker for the base like an antique pine. 
The overall effect is going to be rustic so I’m not expectation perfection but I do want to avoid the blotching issue, especially for the top.
I have sanded the table with 60, 80 and fine grit sandpaper.
The feature, grain and finish of the reclaimed wood (top) is what i want to look great. The trestle is not as critical 
I really want the grain (feature) of this wood for the top to stand out.

Questions:
Given the types of wood I’m using can someone recommend a good pretreatment solution whether homemade or store/web bought. There are so many methods out there, from benzoil to alcohol, etc; my head is spinning.

On this wood, am I better off with a stain or a dye? Again, any ideas on the best product to use for _this _project?

After staining, I plan to add a coating or two of Polyurethane (matte finish?). I have 2 rowdy kids so the more bombproof, the better. I’ve heard there’s a rub-on polyurethane (?). Is that better than brush on? Brand recommendations?

Have I missed anything? Any other strategies that you might suggest?

Thanks for all your help.

Greg


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm concerned that you may not have sanded the table enough. When you sand pine with 60x paper it's difficult to get rid of the swirl marks the sander would make. They really don't show up until you put stain on it so it's best to do a overkill sanding than come up short. I would probably wipe the table down with a damp cloth and let dry to raise the grain and sand it again with 180x paper and then 220x paper. 

The top made from the reclaimed wood is going to be especially dry and more likely to blotch. Alcohol and benzoil would do nothing as a pretreatment. Alcohol is just a solvent and benzoil would work more like a bleach and what you need is a sealer. For a wood conditioner, I use linseed oil mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits and let dry preferably overnight. The old wood on the top I would probably mix it a little more concentrated with linseed oil. By this time the wood is sealed with the linseed oil so I would use a color stain a little darker than if you were using it without the conditioner. If the color still isn't as dark as you like you can go over it again with a dye stain to supplement the color. There is no reason to purchase a wipe on oil based polyurethane if that is how you wish to apply it that way. The wipe on poly is just thinned with mineral spirits so all you have to do is thin brushing poly and put more coats on. I like Sherwin Williams interior oil based polyurethane. Generally I spray everything. Without the equipment I would apply it without thinning it with a soft natural brush. Brushing it you apply it with as few brush strokes as possible. The more you brush it the more the brush strokes show. 

Be sure to practice the finish on some scrap wood before putting anything on the table. The conditioner formula may need adjusting even if you purchase a pre-made conditioner.


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm concerned that you may not have sanded the table enough. When you sand pine with 60x paper it's difficult to get rid of the swirl marks the sander would make. They really don't show up until you put stain on it so it's best to do a overkill sanding than come up short. I would probably wipe the table down with a damp cloth and let dry to raise the grain and sand it again with 180x paper and then 220x paper.
> 
> The top made from the reclaimed wood is going to be especially dry and more likely to blotch. Alcohol and benzoil would do nothing as a pretreatment. Alcohol is just a solvent and benzoil would work more like a bleach and what you need is a sealer. For a wood conditioner, I use linseed oil mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits and let dry preferably overnight. The old wood on the top I would probably mix it a little more concentrated with linseed oil. By this time the wood is sealed with the linseed oil so I would use a color stain a little darker than if you were using it without the conditioner. If the color still isn't as dark as you like you can go over it again with a dye stain to supplement the color. There is no reason to purchase a wipe on oil based polyurethane if that is how you wish to apply it that way. The wipe on poly is just thinned with mineral spirits so all you have to do is thin brushing poly and put more coats on. I like Sherwin Williams interior oil based polyurethane. Generally I spray everything. Without the equipment I would apply it without thinning it with a soft natural brush. Brushing it you apply it with as few brush strokes as possible. The more you brush it the more the brush strokes show.
> 
> Be sure to practice the finish on some scrap wood before putting anything on the table. The conditioner formula may need adjusting even if you purchase a pre-made conditioner.


Thanks so much Steve. This excellent information. I will be using your Linseed mix and I'll run some tests. Thanks again.
Greg


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

*stain vs. dye*



Steve Neul said:


> By this time the wood is sealed with the linseed oil so I would use a color stain a little darker than if you were using it without the conditioner. If the color still isn't as dark as you like you can go over it again with a dye stain to supplement the color..


Steve, 

If you see this, I have the following 2 questions:


 Regarding stain; are you suggesting an oil based stain first and then a dye if it's not dark enough? Is this because you can't do more than one coat of stain?

Does one typically stain the underside of the top? Can that be my practice area?

Thanks so much.

Greg


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

gthec said:


> Steve,
> 
> If you see this, I have the following 2 questions:
> 
> ...


Most people don't use or stock dyes so I normally end up recommending it as a fix for problems. Actually you would have much less risk of blotching if you would stain the majority of the color with the dye and put some oil stain over the top to give it some warmth. A dye alone has kind of a fake wood look to it so I would recommend using both. 

Most tables are not finished on the bottom side however I do. I stain and finish the under side. To me it just looks nicer to be finished and the underside needs poly to help prevent warpage anyway. The underside doesn't get the attention as the rest of it though. I normally stain furniture and turn it upside down to finish. There is always nooks and crannies that is hard to spray otherwise.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

I hope you saved some scrap pieces of your table so you can do all your testing on those instead of the actual top. If you do your testing on the bottom of the table make sure you sanded it exactly the same as the top side. 

I love the look of amber or orange shellac on pine and some alcohol dye could be added to the shellac to tweak the color a bit if desired. You are talking about polyurethane so I am assuming you don't have a spray system?


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

Rick Mosher said:


> I hope you saved some scrap pieces of your table so you can do all your testing on those instead of the actual top. If you do your testing on the bottom of the table make sure you sanded it exactly the same as the top side.
> 
> I love the look of amber or orange shellac on pine and some alcohol dye could be added to the shellac to tweak the color a bit if desired. You are talking about polyurethane so I am assuming you don't have a spray system?


No spray system, sir. I'm a rank amature in the world of woodworking, so brushes, and cloths or whatever one uses. (I'll research that more). I do have one long (about 4x2x6) to test on, but I was concerned that the blotching would be less noticeable on the small piece as compared to the larger bottom part top.

Tomorrow, per Steve's suggestions, i'll sand two more times with 180 and 220 grit sandpaper. I'll sand my test piece as well and then apply the conditioner/sealer. I will report back. Thanks Guys.

Greg


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

*Oil vs Water Based Polyurethane*

Hi Again,

So I ended up using a basic stain on the top and the color looks just fine. The photo shows the underside of the table and a text piece that I sanded and conditioned.

After staining, I want to urethane the top but I am getting a little confused whether to use water based or oil based urethane. Steve Neul, I think you suggested Sherwin Williams interior oil based polyurethane. I don't know if I can get that, any other brands worth trying. Finally, I heard that the oil based urethanes have a tone or color to them. Is that the case.? Also, am I better applying with a foam brush vs a natural brush?

Thanks again, again
Greg

The attached photo shows a treated/stained test piece and the underside of the table stained.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

As light as the color is I believe I would seal the wood with Zinsser Sealcoat and topcoat with a water based polyurethane such as Minwax Polycrylic. Over time the oil based polyurethane will yellow making the color of the table too yellow. When applying the finish by hand I prefer to use a soft natural brush and brush it as thin as possible with as few strokes as possible. If you put too much on too fast the finish doesn't come out as smooth and shows more brush marks.


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

This should be my last post on this topic. Thanks for all your help thus far.

I have applied 2 coats of stain (minwax) stain. Next step is to seal and then urethane. Is there anything I should do prior to urethaning? Also, is there anything I can do do "pop" the grain a bit? Finally, how important is the sealant after 1 coat of wood treatment (50/60 mix of min spirtits and linseed oil) and two coats of stain? Any reason for a light sanding (240 grit)? 

Thanks again for guiding me through this process and I will post photos when this thing is together!

Greg


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

gthec said:


> This should be my last post on this topic. Thanks for all your help thus far.
> 
> I have applied 2 coats of stain (minwax) stain. Next step is to seal and then urethane. Is there anything I should do prior to urethaning? Also, is there anything I can do do "pop" the grain a bit? Finally, how important is the sealant after 1 coat of wood treatment (50/60 mix of min spirtits and linseed oil) and two coats of stain? Any reason for a light sanding (240 grit)?
> 
> ...


Generally when you use a oil stain such as Minwax Wood Finish you only apply it once. Putting a second coat on doesn't really add any color and could leave a residue on the surface that may interfere with the adhesion of the polyurethane. Assuming you thoroughly wiped the stain off I would let the stain dry overnight and you would be good to go. If you applied the stain and didn't wipe it off or not very well you probably should wipe the poject down with lacquer thinner to remove anything left on the surface. What happens if you apply stain and let it dry without wiping it off is the polyurethane will adhere to the stain instead of the wood and will peal off. 

As far as sealing, the Minwax "Wood Finish" as it is called is really false advertising. There is no finish and should coated with a protective coating. The linseed oil/mineral spirits treatment to pop the grain is really unnecessary when you use a stain. It's when you go with a natural finish and topcoat with a water based coating it looks bland unless you use use a treatment to pop the grain. I would not start the fine sanding until you get at least some emulsion with a protective coating and the sanding is done between coats.


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## gthec (Oct 9, 2012)

*Laquer thinner vs. sandpaper*

Steve,

On the second coat, I did apply with a rag and wiped; got up all the excess, but the wood still seem to be absorbing stain. Still, the color was a little stronger than I wanted so I had planned just to hit it with a 240 grits sandpaper (by hand). 

So just to be clear, if in fact, the second coat has left some residue, lacquer thinner will remove the excess, right? And better to use lacquer thinner than sandpaper?

Thanks again,

Greg






Steve Neul said:


> Generally when you use a oil stain such as Minwax Wood Finish you only apply it once. Putting a second coat on doesn't really add any color and could leave a residue on the surface that may interfere with the adhesion of the polyurethane. Assuming you thoroughly wiped the stain off I would let the stain dry overnight and you would be good to go. If you applied the stain and didn't wipe it off or not very well you probably should wipe the poject down with lacquer thinner to remove anything left on the surface. What happens if you apply stain and let it dry without wiping it off is the polyurethane will adhere to the stain instead of the wood and will peal off.
> 
> As far as sealing, the Minwax "Wood Finish" as it is called is really false advertising. There is no finish and should coated with a protective coating. The linseed oil/mineral spirits treatment to pop the grain is really unnecessary when you use a stain. It's when you go with a natural finish and topcoat with a water based coating it looks bland unless you use use a treatment to pop the grain. I would not start the fine sanding until you get at least some emulsion with a protective coating and the sanding is done between coats.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If your color is too strong then it would be better to try to wipe the excess off with lacquer thinner than sanding. Sometimes when you start sanding color off you get blotchy white spots instead of a more uniform color. Then sometimes the thinner isn't enough to do the job. If you end up sanding I would wipe the wood down with mineral spirits afterwards to get a look see at what it's going to look like. The wood wet with mineral spirits will give you a good idea of what it's going to look like with a finish on it without the risk. If you do get blotchy white spots you might take the stain you are using and thin it a little and stain it again. By thinning it you should be able to even the color without going too dark again.


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