# Log score-- now which is which???



## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

My pa ran into an old friend at the bar last night:blink:.... i swear this isn't a joke:no: turns out this guy has a connection with one of the waste management (trash/landfill) companies and has been getting dumpsters of logs dropped off at his farm. so far he has gotten 20 loads and 10 more to come. he wants firewood out of the deal and has been splitting 50/50 with his son who has been splitting it. today i looked at the pile and offered to take a load of logs to mill and return all of the slab wood and the pith to him for firewood. he agreed to try it out and see how much firewood he gets back. if he liked the volume he was getting back he would let me take the whole pile one trailer load at a time. (got an 18' car.. ah.. log hauler) 

this is where i began to drool a little. he got swamped a few years back and had a back log (no pun intended) he wants to start at the oldest part of the log pile (he has 2 8'X8'X60' piles) the older part of the pile is 2-4 years old. i am sure there is some spalted material in there but my only problem is how to identify the logs. some of the bark is falling off and most of the ends have grayed over. the other challenge i face is once it is cracked open what is the best way to sell the wood if i can't ID it? (pending good character and all) 

any tips on IDing a log in this type of situation would be great. does anyone know of a site which offers photos of various wood grain that functions like the VT dendrology site does? ( VT sorts out tree species using growth ranges and maps) all the logs i will be getting are local. i am looking to narrow down my search if possible.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I wonder what the waste management co. does to get the logs. Are they logs removed by local government or something? I have no idea how that would work. I would think that most of those older logs are goners except for whatever species you have there that is resistant to rot like walnut, hickory, white oak etc. walnut will lie on the ground and lose sap to rot but the heartwood will remain good for years. Eventually even that will check radially if left in sunlight though. 

AFA IDing them I'd whack off a 1' section of any species that is still solid and take it to the shop and bandsaw it. Otherwise, if you can't get permission to slice off some ends, get hold of an old timer logger - I mean one 70 years old and buy him lunch and then take him out there and take your chainsaw to slice off some ends or rip a littl swath off whatever he wants. 

I'd jump all over this and check it out as far as I could if I was you.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Ideally you could buck 3-4" off the ends of the ones that you are thinking about taking, that would help in ID (and you are going to buck them anyway before you mill) If that is not doable, the very least take an ax/hatchet to help you see better.

I know of no reference material for id-ing rotting logs in a pile, other than what we know about certain species. For example open grain vs closed grain etc. And how to tell red oak from white oak (red oak has 1/2 the growth rings per inch) Your maples and sweetgum for example will show not much in the way of growth rings, whereas say ash-oak will.

I guess start by snagging some good straight sound ones and go from there. Here is a link just for some quick reading, you probably know most/all of it, but it may help in this case ?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I see TT and I were typing at the same time. He brought up a good question...where did the logs come from...and how can you get them FRESH, If this is a waste management place I assume they are being paid to dispose of them ? You would do that for free right ?


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

i am!!! i will be taking the logs regardless. i think i can go through about 1-2 loads per week. i was climbing' up on the pile today looking at what was there and most of the stuff on top was solid. the ones near the ground are questionable. the farmer is 3 miles from my mill. what isn't good for boards will burn nice:yes: i won't be out much if it turns out that way plus the farmer will be happy with all the firewood. i am more concerned with ants. seems most logs i have gotten 2+ years old have some ants in it. 

even if i find ants and rot... if 25% turns out to be good and spalted it will be worth it.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> even if i find ants and rot...


My heart goes "pitter-patter" when I see ants vacating a tree I'm felling . . . always a good sign. :yes:


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

i am unsure of the details of where or how the logs come to the landfill but from what i understand... when a tree svc, parks dept, etc drop off logs someone is there to snag them before they actually get to the landfill. 

i am unsure if i will get to the fresh ones or not i first need to get past the first load if the guy feels he is not getting his fair share in return i will be dead in the water. He has some crooked ones and some that were not cut with the intention of milling so there are some irregular chunks that will come off. The guy is kinda set on just starting on the old end first. the crooked and funky ones will just be filler in the slab wood pile. hopefully he feels all warm and fuzzy when i come back for a second load. 

I wish i had my camera with me when i went out there these piles are the biggest I've seen since i started doing this. i will be sure to have it on stand by as this unfolds.


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

If it works for you, take your mill to the logs, leave the ants,dust,slabs all there,and its easier to move lumber than logs.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

:thumbdown:got word yesterday that i will have to wait another week for the logs. gotta dig out from a recent snow fall.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

OK i finally got my first load of logs from my pa's friend. The project was delayed due to a hospitalization in the friend's family. My pa and brother got this load and said there could be 40-60 more depending on how many are mill worthy.... and what kind of return on slab wood he gets. I haven't started milling them yet but will dig in soon!! i will post pics as i go.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

All I can say is that we hate it when old threads get revived. And of course we detest pictures. So don't you dare update this thread or post pictures.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

:yes: I see some spalted log milling in your future, charge those camera batteries...


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## junkhound (Nov 6, 2009)

I would open a few of them deeper than normal and make sure he gets enough slabs to keep the logs coming :yes:

Junkhound


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Welcome Junkhound, and :yes: what you said.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

i think i will heed your advice. some of the logs are a bit crooked so that will help also plus i have a big pile of slabs from other logs i have milled. those will go back to him also to help ensure i keep gettin more.:yes: i will be at the mill this weekend so hopefully i get both my projects done and i will have some pics to share.


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## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

Those logs don't look to bad. As long as the worms have not got to them you will come out good. I see several nice butt logs and at least one crotch that might possibly yield some flame. One thing you have going for you is their size, even if you have to take a thicker slab there will be plenty left.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

*update*

hey guys i have been working on this for a while now. my pa offered his friend all of our current slab wood for more logs and he took us up on the offer. i have gotten 2 more loads since i posted pics of the first load. i haven't started milling yet but i hope to soon all together we have about 60 logs to be milled i hope to start sorting though them this weekend so long as it doesn't rain. If i need help on the ID of a few what would be the best info/pics to post?


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## drcollins804 (Jan 11, 2008)

Slice about a 1 inch cookie off the end and get a good picture of the endgrain. Also pictures of the bark when still attached. If you have already made a cut a picture of the grain also might help. I know I'm not the one to do the id's but I think that is probably the best pictures for id. TT may have additional stuff that would help.
David


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

What David said, and I'll re-iterate that if you can get some leaves, even old ones from where the trees stood that will help a great deal.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

*Locust?*

OK i Finally have gotten to these logs and separated them as best i can. I have no leaves what so ever, and even worse some have lost all of their bark.:thumbdown: This one I think is some sort of locust.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Definitely not Honeylocust. Closer to Black Locust but I don't think it is furrowed deep enough for Black. We don't have much BL here but I don't think you got BL. Whack the end of that thing off and let us have a peek-see.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

*unknowns...*

I have layed out all the logs which I am unsure of. The double high pile I believe to be all maple of different sorts. There are many logs which have blackened all of them have very small and shallow furrows in their bark. I tried to cut off the ends of several but they all seem very spalted is there a way to tell different species by their spalt pattern at the ends?


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

*Pile o maples?*

here is what i believe to be maples


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Looks like ash to me (the last pics) The first log...hackberry ? For sure not honeylocust or black locust.

You posted more pics as I was typing...more ash, maybe a couple maple.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

Are you reffering to the blackened ones as the ash? i did a quick search on the dendrology at VT site and WI has no hackberry according to their map. I will have time to whack off some ends this week any in particular that you see would help ID some of them? i have pic of 2 that i did tonight


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

The bark on these really look like the Ash tree in my back yard.


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## dogshooter (Feb 20, 2009)

Looks to me like the blackened ones are basswood. The bark is similar to ash, but the wood will be white, no darker heart on it at all. 

Lots of basswood in WI as well...


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

*logs*

There is Hackberry in Wis. Ive logged some around the jefferson/watertown area.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

It ain't Hack. Least none of the logs on this page.

I Googled Basswood - we don't have it here but what I saw looks like dog you are onto something there.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> Are you reffering to the blackened ones as the ash?


I am seeing almost _all_ ash, except the ones with the black *X*, not sure what that one is. It could be honeylocust, the bark is pretty smooth for hl but I have one or 2 in my pile with different bark, sorta like that. I am going with my first thought on the first log, hackberry. The yellow *X* may be a maple, hard to tell from the picture for sure...but like I said almost all ash. 

The emerald ash borer is killing/has killed a lot of ash trees up your way. (maybe why you have them, too many laying around for the taking) You really need to do some reading up on it, if you haven't already. There are quarantines and things related with this wood and proper disposal of sawmill waste etc...http://www.emeraldashborer.wi.gov/index.jsp


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I know it ain't, but the one with the orange dot looks like an old beat up bois d arc - least the bark. 









I know it must be the same as the log next to it, but that one don't look like bois d arc. My eyesight ain't good enough and plus most of those logs look foreign to me. 

So why am I runnin my fool mouth fer anyhow. :laughing:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Yea I was unsure of the one with the dot too, forgot to mention that.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

The one that's got me really stumped is that one with the arrow pointing to it.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

TT the one with the arrow is an elm we call em Chinese elm but i have heard that they are Siberian elm also same tree different name i guess. 

Daren I am in one of the quarantine zones I can't move ash (logs&firewood) into or out of the zone but any where with in the zone is OK according to the DNR up here. As for the lumber I am unsure I need to check on that. 

now that you guys have my head spinning real good:confused1: i will have to whack the ends off and mill a few. I will try to arrange them in smaller groups that look the most similar. i will then whack off the ends and put numbers to them and carry the numbers to the lumber as it gets milled. hopefully i will be able to id some after the milling ash will be easy to spot once i crack it open.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

:laughing: You ain't right TT.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> I will try to arrange them in smaller groups that look the most similar.


You could start by moving these and any that look like these in a pile, they are ash. Then see what you have left.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

i was thinking that myself Daren. does ash hold its bark well? i have noticed that the ones you have pointed out have securley attached bark. i did a search on the VT website for ash in WI and box elder came up. this was confusing because they are from different genius. the grain should be hugely different than ash correct? does ash spalt well?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

It will hold its bark for a year-18 month, maybe a little longer up north. We can tell ash grain real easy when you open one. As far as spalting...well it more like turns dark and stained way before then. I have never sawn a spalted ash, they are either rotten or the bugs got them first. There is a borer (not the EAB it likes live trees) that I cannot think of the name of, around here anyway, that loves a downed ash and will make swiss cheese of the log in a hurry. I milled an ash for the city awhile back (made form boards for sidewalk pouring) it had laid for just a few months someplace...ate plumb up and it was not even evident from looking at the log whole. I was going to cut for 1/2 the lumber, I didn't want my half-worthless so I made it all form boards and told them catch me next time with something decent. I hope you don't have that borer up there.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

eek i sure hope not!! I plan on milling tomorrow. I will let you guys know how things turn out.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

I did a little millin today only got to one of the mystery logs. this is the one Daren thought was hackberry.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> this is the one Daren thought was hackberry.


I still do.


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## dogshooter (Feb 20, 2009)

Yep, I would say hackberry on that one too. Looks like some good spalt too :yes:

Mill any of the ones I said were Basswood? 

I'm 99% sure you have some Basswood there.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

sorry dog that was the only one i milled from the pile of mystery logs. i did go back and look at the pics i posted there are 3 bass wood logs in the background along the fence line. are those the ones you are referring to?

Daren (or any one) what value does the spalted hack have? what projects is it best suited for? i have never worked with it before or heard of anyone building with it in these parts.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> Daren (or any one) what value does the spalted hack have? what projects is it best suited for?


I built my workbench top from hackberry http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/my-bench-done-now-4301/ I made some rocking chairs for little family members years back too. Value...how much ever you can get for it ...around here it's ~$2 bft. If the spalting is cool maybe add another $1 (or 2 if you are lucky) for the right guy who really wants it. I saw a local lady selling some bookmatched heavily spalted hackberry on ebay, it went for $11 bft  It's mostly used for RR ties and blocking commercially, but some woodworkers who want something different will buy it. I don't mill it anymore, it sets around too long waiting for the right guy. Maybe in your area though you will have better luck.

As far as basswood vs ash. You will know right off which you are milling. Basswood is SOFT, like 500 on the Janka scale...ash is 1300+. If you are slicing through it like butter it's basswood, if it works the mill some it's ash.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Yep, the wood sure looks like it. I didn't think it was because down here, when our hacks get that size they have piles of the scaly islands of bark, layer upon layer. Like this:









I guess maybe we're dealing with that North/South difference in species again.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I would not have recognized that tree you showed TT, for sure a north/south thing. This is what most of them look like up here,_ some_ are a little more furrowed/bigger bark scales,(like the one Greg milled, it was not exactly what I am used to, but close enough to say hack) but this is pretty typical.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

I did some millin this weekend. I only found 2 that i didn't know. (it's easy when the rest is spalted maple) I mislabeled some so I did a touch up in paint. #2 log is the second from the left 1st pic. The #2 log I cut all 4/4 plain sawn. It has some light spalting. The #6 log had much heavier spalting but didn't know it til i had it cut into 3 1/2" sq X70" long. oops! maybe some turning blanks?


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

here is the #6 log pics


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

*Jackpot*

This is what I was hoping I would get and my wishes came true for the most part. i milled about 12 logs this weekend and only 2 were not spalted maple. I guess I'm lucky that WI has lots of em (I think we have 10 or 12 different types of maples here) I also got my 1st maple log that was curly from one end to the other as well.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Was #2 hard or soft ? If it was hard I am still thinking an ash, not white ash though. (there are black and green ash, neither of them I see much here) Those are the borers I was talking about, it could have been much worse.

#6, was the underside of the bark orange (ish) It sorta looks like black oak I have milled... But you would have seen ray fleck toward the center and know oak of some sort. Did you see ray fleck ?

Hopefully someone else can chime in, I am afraid I am not much help this time. I threw some guesses out there, but am not 100% behind them.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

It's out of my knowledge base for sure. It has to be a species I don't have. The 1st and 4th picture of #2, and the 1st picture of #6 all look like SYP - but I can't see the bark on those. Maybe Northern Yellow Pine? :huh:

But then the second picture of #2 looks sort of like flat sawn sycamore - but it's not sycamore bark and that log looks to be sawn close to the pith so we'd be seeing plenty of fleck if it was syc, so there's another useless observation for you. 

We've got plenty of green ash here Daren and it doesn't look like that. But that doesn't mean it isn't. I have come to realize more and more how varied the same species can appear depending on where they are - north or south. 

So Greg I'm not making any guesses at all - just useless observations. I have more where those came from so if you need any ask anytime - no charge.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

both of them were pretty soft and i agree that they both appear to have the same grain pattern. another unique thing about both logs is the wood pecker holes. obviously after our little boring friend:yes: neither of the logs smelled of pine although the grain looks to be pine. no sticky sap either. i doubt it to be any type of ash because of how soft it is. the bark was the same color for the most part one just seemed older (i mean older part of the tree) another thing i remember is that the growth rings were extremely large possibly indicating a faster growth rate. The grain was also fuzzy where you get more of the cathedral patter to it.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

greg4269ub said:


> both of them were pretty soft... the growth rings were extremely large possibly indicating a faster growth rate. The grain was also fuzzy


Bradford pear ? It's a fast growing ornamental. The bark matches #6.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

i have spent the last few hrs poking around on phinds site and checking the dendrology site at VT. the best two matches i can find to what i have is mulberry (white) or what phinds has on his site called _sen. _I went mostly off of color and match to grain pattern. I have milled basswood and #2 and #6 were both kinda fuzzy like basswood but the color was way off. does basswood go a little brownish-yellow when it begins to spalt? Today i saw a fairly immature basswood (here we call em linden) and the color and texture (of bark) #2 matched the young basswood pretty close. let me know what you are thinkin on these. does mulberry get fuzzy like basswood when milled?


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## jnandory (Feb 27, 2010)

Actually a linden and a basswood are not the same trees. A linden is a hybrid. A maple and basswood cross that are only grown in nurseries. You can tell the difference because lindens grow in a cone shape which you can really spot when the leaves are on. Just thought i would add my two cents.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

I have been in the tree business for almost 10 years always have know basswoods as lindens until about a year or two ago when i started learning what woods come from what trees. doing a search on the INTERNET you will find basswood AKA big and little leaf lindens books and INTERNET searches have yielded the same results. just for giggles i called one of our arborists at work this morn and he told me the same thing. i would like to see some pics of what you are describing. if you could this would be an awesome learning experience if what you say comes out true.


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## greg4269ub (Sep 1, 2009)

I have been busy workin these log piles. I think I am 6 loads in and just when I thought I was makin headway on the mamoth piles the farmer said he got a call from the waste management company. They said they are gonna start bringin out fresh logs again. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I ran out of bunker space last week for air drying and I have about 40-50 logs in the yard still to mill. One good thing is that I am getting customers coming from 200+ miles for the spalted material. I even got rid of that hackberry log already. Looks like I'm gonna be busy this summer.:yes:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Easier said than done I know, but if the logs are gonna lay for very long try to get them off the ground (even if you have to sacrifice some of the lower quality logs as bolsters) and keep the sun off of them. Don't use tarps though except on spalt-friendly species. 

You can use landscape fabric because it breathes. It comes in various degrees of light blocking or whatever it's called. Get the one that blocks the most light. Weighted tin is the best thing if you can find some. 

If you can't do any of this you can slow degradation some by keeping a sprinkler on them during the day. If you have access to stock tank you can keep them in their but walnut, oak, and other species high in tannins etc. will ruin the water for the cattle. 

Best method is to saw them all up right quick and get them stickered. :icon_cool:


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