# Setting a 4x6 post into the ground...



## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Hello, hope this post is in the appropriate forum...was wondering if anyone could give me some advice/opinions about setting a 4x6 pressure treated post in the ground: I plan to set in concrete an 8 foot, 4x6 pressure treated post 4 feet into the ground and then attach a 16 foot 4x4 post onto that which will have a 30 pound bat house attached to it. I was going to attach the 4x4 to the 4x6 with 2 inch galvanized lag bolts—4 of them spaced at 12 inches. I am hoping this 4x6 supports the 16 foot 4x4 being in the ground 4 feet although I have read that it should be much deeper. Ultimately, the bottom 4 feet of the 4x4 post with the attached bat house will be secured to the 4x6. Any thoughts are appreciated!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It should be fine, maybe over kill?*

I would do the following before setting the post down the hole. The depth seems fine, but put several inches of small stone in the bottom to prevent water from pooling at the bottom. It depends on the type of soil you have in your area and you will find out when you dig the hole. Sand and gravel will be better than wet clay. I would also seal the bottom 24" of the 4 x 6 post with tar or spray on underbody coating. I've done this for about 100 4 x 4 fence posts and about 50 or so 4 x 6 deck support posts. It's cheap "insurance" to help prevent rot. Be sure you get the "underground" pressure treated posts, not the "on grade" type. :vs_cool:


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

woodnthings said:


> I would do the following before setting the post down the hole. The depth seems fine, but put several inches of small stone in the bottom to prevent water from pooling at the bottom. It depends on th etype of soil you have in your area and you will find out when you dig the hole.Sand and gravel will be better than wet clay. I would also seal the bottom 24" of the 4 x 6 post with tar or spray on underbody coating. I've done this for about 100 4 x 4 fence posts and about 50 or so 4 x 6 deck support posts. It's cheap "insurance" to help prevent rot. Be sure you get the "underground" pressure treated posts, not the "on grade" type. <img src="http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/images/smilies/vs_cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Vs Cool" class="inlineimg" />


 Many thanks for your thoughts and quick reply!


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

How are you going to get 2" lag bolts through a 4" post? I would use standard 9"(8" may really work when you account for the real size of the posts) galvanized bolts.


George


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## Packard (Jul 27, 2018)

4" x 6" seems like overkill (and heavy). A 4" x 4" post would be plenty strong enough for a bat house.

Every spring the local newspaper prints plans for bat houses and recommends their construction. Apparently this is more important than ever because of Lyme Disease, West Nile disease, etc. The bats help control the mosquito population. 

https://www.mosquito.org/page/diseases

According to Sagulator you could place a 4" x 4" piece of PT lumber on cinderblocks 6 feet apart and load 900 pounds on span and have a deflection of 0.20" (1/5").

I don't know what your bat house is going to look like but I suspect that a 4" x 4" would be strong enough and lighter and easier to carry and install.


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

GeorgeC said:


> How are you going to get 2" lag bolts through a 4" post? I would use standard 9"(8" may really work when you account for the real size of the posts) galvanized bolts.
> 
> 
> George


 Sorry, the bolts are galvanized 2 inch diameter hex bolts--8 inch long...I will actually be using a 5/8 inch long one to use as the 'pivot' when raising the whole thing up...yes, we can't sit outside on our patio very long in the summer because the mosquitoes are so bad and are hoping to attract bats to help us out a bit!


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Here's a pic...plywood and cedar...


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

A post set in packed gravel will last much longer than a post set in concrete. The concrete retains water and the post will rot right at the top of the concrete. 
If the gravel is well packed, the post is just as rigid as one set in concrete. And, when it does come time to re-do it, it will be a whole lot easier to get out.


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

2 inch diameter? a little overkill don't you think?


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

Lyme disease is a tick-borne bacterial problem. Bats can't help.



Every bat house plan here supposes that the bat houses need to be mounted on the warm side of your house.
Just rig it up so the bat kaka falls unnoticed and not into your chip dip.


Any kind of a wooden pole support is too easy for cats to climb and kill off your bats.
Lower the bat houses, cats can't climb walls, keep the bats hunting where you sit.
They don't interact with people.


I have a second floor balcony off my dining room.
It is one Hello of a flying leap up there from the neighbor's fence.
A couple of cats are regular visitors, all the same.


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

holtzdreher said:


> 2 inch diameter? a little overkill don't you think?


 Well, I do want the 4x4 post tight against the 4x6...about to drill now, wish me luck!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*We have a typo here ....*



Gus64 said:


> Sorry, the bolts are galvanized* 2 inch *diameter hex bolts--8 inch long...I will actually be using a 5/8 inch long one to use as the 'pivot' when raising the whole thing up...yes, we can't sit outside on our patio very long in the summer because the mosquitoes are so bad and are hoping to attract bats to help us out a bit!





Gus64 said:


> Well, I do want the 4x4 post tight against the 4x6...about to drill now, wish me luck!



That should read 1/2" diameter, not 2". :surprise2:


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't see a 2" diameter bit there, looks 1/2" to me?

The largest I can find is 1 1/2".


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

shoot summ said:


> I don't see a 2" diameter bit there, looks 1/2" to me?
> 
> The largest I can find is 1 1/2".


 Geez, sorry about that! Yes, 1/2 inch bolts and one 5/8 to use as a pivot...


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Gus64 said:


> shoot summ said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see a 2" diameter bit there, looks 1/2" to me?
> ...


Bolts...1/2 diameter, one is 10", one is 8"...


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Gus64 said:


> Gus64 said:
> 
> 
> > shoot summ said:
> ...


 This time with photos!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The cat killer issue ...*



Brian T said:


> Lyme disease is a tick-borne bacterial problem. Bats can't help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you use a steel pole, like 2" EMT or a PVC pipe, the cats can't climb it. I would hate to see you go to all this work, only to have a cat killer issue. No need to "bait" the neighborhood cats, since they are probably well fed anyway. 



:vs_cool:


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

woodnthings said:


> Brian T said:
> 
> 
> > Lyme disease is a tick-borne bacterial problem. Bats can't help.
> ...


 Yes, was thinking about the cat issue but I think I will chance it. Many thanks to everyone here!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*There's an easy "fix" .......*

Just slip a piece of 6" thin wall PVC on the 4 X 4 post before you bolt it on. Stove pipe will work also. You can also retro fit it if the bat murder rate increases to the point the bodies start piling up around the base of the post. :vs_OMG:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Gus64 said:


> Hello, hope this post is in the appropriate forum...was wondering if anyone could give me some advice/opinions about setting a 4x6 pressure treated post in the ground...Any thoughts are appreciated!


Hi Gus,

Looks like your already well into this project and have little to do than get it into the air?

I will assume you are just following standard "web base" plans for generic bat houses also.

I will add to others advise here..*.NO CONCRETE!!!*..it will last longer and be more secure with just well packed rock and gravel around its base. 

You can also extend the life span of the PT wood by charring the outside portion that goes into the ground and there are also "borate" and/or decay inhibitor "pills or plugs" that can get drilled into the wood at a later date should you wish or need more protection. PT wood is not as "rot resistant" in many of its forms as it is advertised by the manufacture.

If your design for the Bat House doesn't work as intended, don't hesitate to come back here for more assistance or drop me an email. I'm no longer an active member of BCI (Bat Conservation International) but once was in a professional capacity. Should you want to look at other examples of bat houses, check out "Chiroptera Architecture," for some ideas...I update it once or twice a year...:laugh2:

Good luck!

j


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Gus64 said:


> Hello, hope this post is in the appropriate forum...was wondering if anyone could give me some advice/opinions about setting a 4x6 pressure treated post in the ground: I plan to set in concrete an 8 foot, 4x6 pressure treated post 4 feet into the ground and then attach a 16 foot 4x4 post onto that which will have a 30 pound bat house attached to it. I was going to attach the 4x4 to the 4x6 with 2 inch galvanized lag bolts—4 of them spaced at 12 inches. I am hoping this 4x6 supports the 16 foot 4x4 being in the ground 4 feet although I have read that it should be much deeper. Ultimately, the bottom 4 feet of the 4x4 post with the attached bat house will be secured to the 4x6. Any thoughts are appreciated!


The suggested method of putting treated posts in the ground is to back fill the hole with gravel. I've never done that though. I've always put them into concrete. I build pole barns for shop space and use the 4x6 posts for that purpose. I had one building destroyed by a storm but the posts were fine. They were only in the ground 3' as at the time I built the building I was digging the holes by hand. Anyway I dug up the posts, broke the concrete off the wood and they were in great shape after 25 years. I went ahead and reused the posts to rebuild another building. 

Treated wood is also suppose to be corrosive to metal parts but I've never had any problems with lag screws.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The suggested method of putting treated posts in the ground is to back fill the hole with gravel. I've never done that though. I've always put them into concrete. I build pole barns for shop space and use the 4x6 posts for that purpose. I had one building destroyed by a storm but the posts were fine. They were only in the ground 3' as at the time I built the building I was digging the holes by hand. Anyway I dug up the posts, broke the concrete off the wood and they were in great shape after 25 years. I went ahead and reused the posts to rebuild another building.
> 
> Treated wood is also suppose to be corrosive to metal parts but I've never had any problems with lag screws.


I can not speak to your experience Steve that you have shared, nor do I know of what mitigating events could have contributed to the durability you suggested to have observed? It could be the soil type, biome specifics, aired climate, or other extenuating context, roof overhang coverage or the related details of the project...???...:|...or just not in the ground long enough?

What I can speak to on this matter, is hundreds of cases of decay I have personally observed, repaired and/or had to intervene on when the erroneous practice takes place. Wood embedded/encapsulated in OPC and related concrete materials...is a decay issue.

In some association and related building/architectural groups (and I've been told local code for some areas now) for "domestic architecture" embedment of...structural posts...in concrete for Pole Barns...Beach houses, and related "pole architecture," ...embedment of PT wood, Rot Resistant species, Telephone Poles, etc..*.is not allowed*... because of the issues with wood rapidly decaying when encapsulated in concrete...Nor is structurally necessary or add any strength to a buildings "moment connection" strength or "uplift resistance"...

Whether "pile driven wood post" or "poteaux-en-terremodalities"...the majority is done (virtually all?)...without...concrete of any sort, and the only contemporary...*decay issues*...that have occurred with the historic vernacular systems of "post in ground" foundation systems occurred after the inappropriate embedment in concrete, and/or the improper wood species selection and application modalities...

Proper depth, back fill with gravel and/or stone, and a in soils with poor "load capacity" a footer stone...is al that is needed for a secure setting of such posts...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I can not speak to your experience Steve that you have shared, nor do I know of what mitigating events could have contributed to the durability you suggested to have observed? It could be the soil type, biome specifics, aired climate, or other extenuating context, roof overhang coverage or the related details of the project...???...:|...or just not in the ground long enough?
> 
> What I can speak to on this matter, is hundreds of cases of decay I have personally observed, repaired and/or had to intervene on when the erroneous practice takes place. Wood embedded/encapsulated in OPC and related concrete materials...is a decay issue.
> 
> ...


Where I live isn't that arid. The ground here pretty much stays wet from fall to late spring. The only problem I've ever had with pressure treated is when the wood wasn't properly treated. I've gotten a few round posts that about 1/2" of the exterior doesn't rot but the entire center rots away. Not just what is below grade but the entire post. I've heard stories about unscrupulous companies just hosing posts with the chemical to give it the green color instead of putting it in a tank and actually pressure treating it. I suspect these posts were some of those.


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Gus64 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello, hope this post is in the appropriate forum...was wondering if anyone could give me some advice/opinions about setting a 4x6 pressure treated post in the ground...Any thoughts are appreciated!
> ...


Yes, I built a 4 house chamber from the batcon site...was a fun, winter project I did with my stepson.

I do know it is suggested that you install a post in ground at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the length of the piece above ground and I am less than that recommendation. I think I would have to hire someone to dig an 6-8 foot hole so I am going to put the 4x6 in at 4-5' deep and hope for the best. I guess that's where I thought 8, 50 lb bags of concrete would give me a heavier base. Can always swap them for, say, modified stone? That packs quite well...


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Just curious, do you know that you have bats in your area?


George


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

GeorgeC said:


> Just curious, do you know that you have bats in your area?
> 
> 
> George


 Yes, I have seen them in the summer months here in PA.


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

I love having bats around, but another thing bats need is a nearby source of water. We had the most bats the summers we had an above ground pool for the kids. The bats would swoop down and skim just above the surface and dip their mouths into the water. We have a stream about 250 ft behind the house, and I have seen them skimming the water there too. I put up bat houses, but they have never been used. I have a few "den trees" not too far from the house, and I think they reside in those. One is a huge old poplar with lots of holes and hollows. I know I have seen owls and raccoons using the lower holes.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I was taught to insert metal brackets in the concrete, then bolt the posts to the brackets. Around here, you don't want to put wood directly in concrete. Even treated wood won't last. You can find them at the big box hardware store. Go there to look at the assortment of different choices. Here is an example, but the ones we used recently are much heavier looking:

https://www.strongtie.com/standoffpostbases_castinplacepostbases/pbs_base/p/pbs


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## Packard (Jul 27, 2018)

Gus64 said:


> Sorry, the bolts are galvanized 2 inch diameter hex bolts--8 inch long...I will actually be using a 5/8 inch long one to use as the 'pivot' when raising the whole thing up...yes, we can't sit outside on our patio very long in the summer because the mosquitoes are so bad and are hoping to attract bats to help us out a bit!


I stayed at a bed and breakfast hotel in Connecticut a while back. They solved the mosquito problem by mounting ceiling fans on the full surround porch. They explained that with enough of a breeze the mosquitoes cannot light and bite. They mostly come out on the hottest days, so the fans are welcome.

It is more attractive and cheaper than a screened in porch. I sat out there for an hour or so after dinner and got not a signle bite.

A nice addition to the bat house strategy.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Tool Agnostic said:


> I was taught to insert metal brackets in the concrete, then bolt the posts to the brackets. Around here, you don't want to put wood directly in concrete. Even treated wood won't last. You can find them at the big box hardware store. Go there to look at the assortment of different choices. Here is an example, but the ones we used recently are much heavier looking:
> 
> https://www.strongtie.com/standoffpostbases_castinplacepostbases/pbs_base/p/pbs



That would be a lot of work and very expensive for a fenced in yard. Never been done any place I have ever lived.


George


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## Packard (Jul 27, 2018)




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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Interesting. I would have to try some for holding power before installing a whole fence. Ii would not be interested in something like this bat house pole.



George


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

GeorgeC said:


> Interesting. I would have to try some for holding power before installing a whole fence. Ii would not be interested in something like this bat house pole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 added 6" around the post at a time and tamped until it was filled then added a bit more around the base sloping away. Going to rain tonight and tomorrow so moisture seeping in should solidify it somewhat. The modified was a bit wet and packed well. We'll see how much the post holds. Rock-solid now but I wonder how it will hold the 4x4 and bat house attached. We shall see! Good info from everyone here and thank


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

Gus64 said:


> GeorgeC said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. I would have to try some for holding power before installing a whole fence. Ii would not be interested in something like this bat house pole.
> ...


Sorry for the errors...used modified stone...thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

GeorgeC said:


> That would be a lot of work and very expensive for a fenced in yard. Never been done any place I have ever lived. George


They don't do it with fences here. I never asked why, but cost seems like a reasonable explanation. They do it for mailboxes, patios, etc. 

Photo: One of the posts that holds up the roof of our house. The white "square" underneath is also part of the same Simpson Strongtie metal bracket. It must have been painted white when it was originally set into the concrete foundation. That part of the roof extends over an open area outside to form a patio.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

I think the 4x4 will eventually warp and bend over. A metal post would be better.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Tool Agnostic said:


> They don't do it with fences here. I never asked why, but cost seems like a reasonable explanation. They do it for mailboxes, patios, etc. ....


That's called a "moment connection" in architectural engineering. I personally just don't care for the the way they look, and the ones needed for large and/or high post are indeed expensive. For fences, I have seen a number of projects where they where used, yet oddly enough the posts in those cases where metal...???...not wood.



Terry Q said:


> I think the 4x4 will eventually warp and bend over. A metal post would be better...In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


I have seen "Martin Boxes" (aka a type of bird) placed on metal flag poles...so there is precedent for such application for a metal pole. Rather expensive to get a good one tall enough for the applied application, and I have seen more than one of those fail too and bend over so not really an improvement over wood. 

I don't disagree that wood can fail, but if due diligence is taken in selecting the correct species and/or piece of wood, they are more than durable...even in the 4x4 size range...

Case in point (of the countless posts in ground or related installations I have seen and/or worked on) the flag pole at a recent farm project is just one more example of...*"knowing the what's and how's"*...of tradtional woodworking, as this old Farmer did! This pole is Black Spruce off the farm and was installed in 1972...Its been in the weather since then and is still sound and functioning holding up "Old Glory." If wood is selected and treated properly...and allowed to "dry out"...*which it can't do embedded in concrete*...it will last a very, very long time! :laugh2:


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## unburled (Mar 10, 2019)

My go-to for post setting is 1/4 minus, which is $2 per 5 gal bucket down the street



Steve Neul said:


> I dug up the posts, broke the concrete off the wood


I've recovered free-listed posts this way too, both metal and wood, just a few swings of an 8lb sledge then clean up if needed with a masonry wheeled angle grinder.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

unburled said:


> My go-to for post setting is 1/4 minus, which is $2 per 5 gal bucket down the street
> 
> 
> 
> I've recovered free-listed posts this way too, both metal and wood, just a few swings of an 8lb sledge then clean up if needed with a masonry wheeled angle grinder.


I think if the wood is properly treated in a pressure tank there isn't anything you can do to it in normal construction to make it rot. Sometime before 1990 I made a retaining wall to make a road next to a pond which had about ten 4x6 posts set in concrete. The base of the posts are submerged in water for most of the year every year and the wall is still in great shape.


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## unburled (Mar 10, 2019)

Steve Neul said:


> I think if the wood is properly treated in a pressure tank there isn't anything you can do to it in normal construction to make it rot. Sometime before 1990 I made a retaining wall to make a road next to a pond which had about ten 4x6 posts set in concrete. The base of the posts are submerged in water for most of the year every year and the wall is still in great shape.



I'll blabber a bit here. Those pre 1990 chemicals were probably different than today's, and there may not have been wetland/environmental based limits on your particular application. Generally speaking currently I see two types of PT in the stores. One is labeled ground-contact. The other non-ground-contact. But I use so much reclaimed wood that the question is whether it's been treated at all (has slits all over), then I get on with the project. Post longevity also depends on whether a cut end or factory end is put in the ground, and the actual chemicals used, which have changed over the years. Like I say, just blabbering on a bit. At times I've slathered on a 1/4" layer of roofing asphalt below grade.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Post in Concrete...IS BAD PRACTICE!!!!*



unburled said:


> ...My go-to for post setting is 1/4 minus,...


:grin:...Well...You can not really get..."more perfect"...than 1/4 minus gravel for a "go to" generic...never fail method...(in virtually all applications) for not only installing posts in general, but this is the "finish off" material for many current post related domestic architecture as well. I have seen it spec'd so many times on blue prints that its become common knowledge among...*good builders*...when facilitating any type of post work in general. There other systems that work too, and do drain better, however for most "landscape post" applications, its hard to go wrong with 1/4 minus gravel...

Excellent!!!



Steve Neul said:


> ...I think if the wood is properly treated in a pressure tank there isn't anything you can do to it in normal construction to make it rot...


:|...Well, it's impossible to really effectively discuss someone's "I think" comments. 

What I can state again (and document further) is this is...*bad practice*...and not something a good builder today would ever recommend to a client or student trying to mount posts. Does such practices still go on...???...of course!!! There are countless "bad practices" that plague the building arts...

Before the "1990's" the toxicity level in wood was also much higher, to the point of actually causing death and illness in children and workers that used or played on such materials. The number of winning class action lawsuits around the...very real...issue are many.



Steve Neul said:


> ...The base of the posts are submerged in water for most of the year every year and the wall is still in great shape....


Well then...those post could be any species of wood for the most part...

The "decay line" would be very specific as wood...under water...does not rot ever. That's why we find logs from a few hundred years all the way to over 15,000 years old buried in wet mineral soils and/or under water that are actually in better condition than if just harvested and air dried...

>>>

To validate further, primary for those readers trying to figure this all out and make informed decisions, I share the following:

*Will wooden posts rot in concrete?*



Bill Burnett And Kevin Burnett said:


> ...Simply setting the posts in concrete does create a condition that will accelerate rot in the bottom of the posts...


*How do you keep posts from rotting?
*



Home Improvement Network said:


> ...The cement does not rot your posts, the moisture does. Concrete holds moisture. If you don't allow the concrete to wick moisture out to its surrounding dirt, it will rot your posts quick. I think* the best way to do posts is to use just gravel, no concrete....*


*Why deck posts should not be set in concrete?*



John Temmel said:


> ...*Why Deck Posts Should Not Be Set in Concrete.* A deck post should always be placed on top of footing, not inside concrete because it can break. ... When concrete is poured around a deck post in this way, the post will rot due to moisture buildup by the soil. ...


The comment above by John about...*"posts breaking off"*...I haven't even begun to address yet in this conversation. I felt it was out of context...However, "moment shear" is a serious issue for wood post when encapsulated in concrete and subjected to either tectonic and/or wind event shear events...

*Can you put deck posts in concrete?*



Lowes Building Experts said:


> ...There are several methods for setting posts. One way is to pour concrete in the post hole, set the post on the concrete and back-fill with gravel. To help prevent rotting, this deck will have wooden posts attached to concrete footers above ground.


Note: *Even the Building departments in most "Big Box Stores" officially never recommend embedment in concrete!!!* Using it as a "footer" is a lesser form of placing a stone at the bottom which has been common practice for thousands of years and still is in many cultures. 

We do not use OPC (ordinary portland cements) of any kind in our architectural designs for any project unless there is mitigating conditions like failure in soils load capcity...but rather the tradtional stone systems for mounting house, deck and related foundation systems...Why?...Well, for one the oldest wooden buildings in the world are built this way (7000 years undocumented and 2000 years documented) because concrete (especially modern concretes) are plagued with all types of issues, are not environmentally sustainable, are costly, and act like sponges capturing and holding moisture there by ROTTING!!! the wood the come in contact with...


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## unburled (Mar 10, 2019)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> There other systems that work too, and do drain better


The better the drainage, the deeper the aeration, which fuels 1/2 the microbes and it'll be damp.

Excluding eventual disposal, what's the carbon cost of concrete versus 1/4-minus?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-most-destructive-material-on-earth


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Wow...!!!!*



unburled said:


> The better the drainage, the deeper the aeration, which fuels 1/2 the microbes and it'll be damp...Excluding eventual disposal, what's the carbon cost of concrete versus 1/4-minus?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-most-destructive-material-on-earth


That is an excellent short and to the point perspective on wooden post footing method!!!

and...

WOW...!!!...What a fantastic article you shared...!!!

That covers stuff I have been trying to explain to clients and colleagues for decades. It will take me some time to get to read all the linked information, but what I can say is that the OPC industry has had a "strangle hold" on the building industry globally for decades (primarily since post WWII.) If it's "governmental support"...lobbyist and subsidies got stripped from it..*.OPC would...die out*...as an industry, and make mineral based construction materials like actual stone...natural cements...geopolymers and related tradtional system viable again and competitive on the open market...

Thanks again for a great link!!!...and great advise on proper practice for placing posts!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> :grin:...Well...You can not really get..."more perfect"...than 1/4 minus gravel for a "go to" generic...never fail method...(in virtually all applications) for not only installing posts in general, but this is the "finish off" material for many current post related domestic architecture as well. I have seen it spec'd so many times on blue prints that its become common knowledge among...*good builders*...when facilitating any type of post work in general. There other systems that work too, and do drain better, however for most "landscape post" applications, its hard to go wrong with 1/4 minus gravel...
> 
> Excellent!!!
> 
> ...


Any comment anyone makes would be a "I Think" statement. What I am reporting is a lifetime of experience with working with pressure treated wood. The bottom line is I've been putting treated posts in concrete and it works. It's only the wood that isn't properly treated which won't work regardless of how it is installed.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

unburled said:


> I'll blabber a bit here. Those pre 1990 chemicals were probably different than today's, and there may not have been wetland/environmental based limits on your particular application. Generally speaking currently I see two types of PT in the stores. One is labeled ground-contact. The other non-ground-contact. But I use so much reclaimed wood that the question is whether it's been treated at all (has slits all over), then I get on with the project. Post longevity also depends on whether a cut end or factory end is put in the ground, and the actual chemicals used, which have changed over the years. Like I say, just blabbering on a bit. At times I've slathered on a 1/4" layer of roofing asphalt below grade.


You are right, the older treated wood was also treated with arsenic. At the time it was the best way to make treated wood that was also resistant to insects. The only problem with it is the general public was using treated wood for raised beds for their vegetable gardens and were getting a certain amount of arsenic in their food so they had to quit using the arsenic. 

I don't know if I've ever seen posts that were made for above ground. I know for a while after they quit using arsenic in the wood all of the 2x4's and 2x6's I've seen were only for above ground. Still the product may vary from place to place and someone putting posts in the ground should check to see if they are for ground contact.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...Any comment anyone makes would be a "I Think" statement. ...


Steve, respectfully...I'm not going to debate (and detract from the OP query) your obtuse existential concepts of "I think" statements...:| 

"Opinions"...do not have equal merit to shared..."facts"...



Steve Neul said:


> ...What I am reporting is a lifetime of experience with working with pressure treated wood....


To what gain...???

Your "lifetime of experiences" are out of context on not only my 40 years of experience, but examples of which I back up my statements. Your "lifetime of experiences" are simply not supported by either observed imperial facts or the realities reflected within the industry or by research...or current architectural understanding and observation regarding the topic of posts in concrete below grade...



Steve Neul said:


> ...The bottom line is I've been putting treated posts in concrete and it works. It's only the wood that isn't properly treated which won't work regardless of how it is installed. ...


Claiming something works Steve does not make it a fact. At best it becomes an atypical event without validation of detail or other unknown mitigating conditions that can not be confirmed or examined?

Further, the actual bottom line is...it does not work...:|

Wood in OPC with a modern PR treated, rot resistant or other species are compromised by the practice of embedment within concrete below or at grade. *The...proper...modalities accepted (and reflected by research and empirical observation) as it is now within the building industry is to never embed wood inside concrete*...If you chose not to accept that practice, that is your prerogative...

You are once again sharing information that is misleading and/or confusing to those that have limited experience and are trying to learn..."good practice,"...understanding and principles of placing a wooden post in the ground.

You "opinions" do not equate to "good practice" and your "experiences" (atypical at best) are moot when they are offered as a counter to the factual realities of what happens to wood (typically) in contact with the ground and concrete at the same time.



Steve Neul said:


> ...At the time it was the best way to make treated wood that was also resistant to insects...


*Actually that is not true at all...!!!*

The acetylation processing of wood (as just one example) has been known since turn of the century and acetylated wood was within the building industry not that long after. The use of arsenic in wood was a choice...NOT!!!...a "best way," by any stretch of the imagination. Both industrial and economic (aka profit) choices where made by an industry that manufactured and marked such toxic products...



Steve Neul said:


> ...The only problem with it is the general public was using treated wood for raised beds for their vegetable gardens and were getting a certain amount of arsenic in their food so they had to quit using the arsenic. ...


???...Really, the only problem was "raised beds" for gardens...!!??

There was not class action lawsuits about sick workers, children that became ill (some terminally) from this practice and use of a toxic material that did not need to exist for any other purpose than an industries "bottom line?"

Its really important Steve, that facts like this get shared on public forms where less experienced are trying to learn...as assumption of "knowing" is not the same as actually...knowing a topic well enough to offer germane advise that is both informative and safe...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*After doing some research .....*

I found several articles on why NOT to fill the post hole with concrete:








This title is misleading, it should have a ? at the end!
https://www.portersbuildingcenters.com/fill-that-post-hole-with-concrete/









I personally do not fill the holes with concrete. I put gravel in the bottom, tar or coat the part that goes into the ground then pack the soil and tamp it all around the post. :vs_cool:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Steve, respectfully...I'm not going to debate (and detract from the OP query) your obtuse existential concepts of "I think" statements...:|
> 
> "Opinions"...do not have equal merit to shared..."facts"...
> 
> ...


You just can't believe everything you read, even from a manufacturer. Here is 10 4x6 posts set in concrete which have been there for 30 years which are currently 18" under water. Neither the posts nor the 2x6's have been treated with any other preservative. It's not just this retaining wall, every post on my place is set in concrete including the posts to my shop. It works. If a post set in concrete fails it's because it wasn't properly treated which would fail anyway.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

Didn't see this but you can insert either end into the hole.:wink: OK, good advice here.


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## Gus64 (Jan 6, 2018)

woodnthings said:


> I found several articles on why NOT to fill the post hole with concrete:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking after reading all opinions that what the heck did we do before the internet, haha! We just would put the posts in the ground one way or the other and it would be 'live and learn'! I did initially buy bags of concrete then returned them for bags of modified stone. If I didn't ask you folks I would have gone with the concrete option. The stone packed tight around the 4x6 and now I will decide if I will cut off a foot or two of the 4x4 (16' post attached to 4' of a 4x6 which is in the ground 4 feet deep) which I will attach to it. I really don't know what to expect after I mount this whole contraption but will of course 'live and learn' and gladly share my results here on these great forums. Thanks!


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

The 4x4 posts for my pool deck are in concrete. I have lived here over 23 years. So far, so good.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Statistical...No...It does not work...*



Steve Neul said:


> You just can't believe everything you read, even from a manufacturer...


No...:|...one "can't believe everything," they read...Nor has anyone here suggest they should...



Steve Neul said:


> ...If a post set in concrete fails it's because it wasn't properly treated which would fail anyway....


That is not only obtuse it is a false assumption without any form of logical validation? "If a post set in concrete fails it's because" it has began to decay...or has suffered an event to cause failure...which could be anything from a car hitting it to fugal presence...or other factors...plan and simple. 

Beyond that is the point of this aspect of the discussion...What has, in many cases clearly advanced that decay compared to exactly the same wood types...in exactly the same soil and biome types...that have not begun to decay at all, or not as rapidly?

The point you continue to labor over is the false conviction that this isn't exacerbated by the concrete embedment. That is no longer a point of assumption within the building arts, as enough empirical evidence is out there to the contrary. Enough, in fact, to make Architects, Contractors, Lumber Distributors, Building Supply Stores, Pole Building Manufactures, many Local Building Departments and related architectural facilitators clearly stating (as in this conversation) it is...BAD PRACTICE.

Again, if you (or anyone?) chooses not to accept that, or agree with it, that is your prerogative...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> No...:|...one "can't believe everything," they read...Nor has anyone here suggest they should...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact of the matter is I have had around 80 treated posts set in concrete on my place. If there was an issue with them rotting I would know it. Even when the storm destroyed one of my buildings the posts remained so there wasn't any trace of rot. I just dug them up and re-used them and set them back in concrete.


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## unburled (Mar 10, 2019)

Steve Neul said:


> The fact of the matter is I have had around 80 treated posts set in concrete on my place.



It just occurred to me that a big benefit of encasing the post in concrete is that chemical leaching is reduced.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

unburled said:


> It just occurred to me that a big benefit of encasing the post in concrete is that chemical leaching is reduced.


In my case the posts are not encased in concrete. I dig the hole and set the post in. Then I plum the post with stakes and when it's all set I back fill the hole with cement. In the end of the post is still in contact with the ground. In any case there wouldn't be enough of the chemical leach into the soil to hurt anything.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Come on guys .....*



Steve Neul said:


> The fact of the matter is I have had around 80 treated *posts set in concrete on my place*. If there was an issue with them rotting I would know it. Even when the storm destroyed one of my buildings the posts remained so there wasn't any trace of rot. I just dug them up and re-used them and set them back in concrete.





Steve Neul said:


> *In my case the posts are not encased in concrete.* I dig the hole and set the post in. Then I plum the post with stakes and when it's all set I back fill the hole with cement. In the end of the post is still in contact with the ground. In any case there wouldn't be enough of the chemical leach into the soil to hurt anything.



All this arguing and pontificating, 55 posts later, come to find out the posts are *not encased in concrete*, only set in or backfilled at the bottom and the ends are touching the soil. 



I guess words do have a specific meaning after all. :nerd2:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> All this arguing and pontificating, 55 posts later, come to find out the posts are *not encased in concrete*, only set in or backfilled at the bottom and the ends are touching the soil.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess words do have a specific meaning after all. :nerd2:


Well, it was just an assumption the post was only back filled. I don't know of anyone that would pour cement in a hole and then put the post in. It's difficult enough to put a 16' 4x6 post in the ground without worrying about knocking dirt in the hole while you are doing it. Posts are heavy.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Backfilled VS encased?*



Steve Neul said:


> Well, it was just an assumption the post was only back filled. I don't know of anyone that would pour cement in a hole and then put the post in. It's difficult enough to put a 16' 4x6 post in the ground without worrying about knocking dirt in the hole while you are doing it. Posts are heavy.



OK, here we go again. If you set the post in the hole, end resting on soil or gravel, THEN fill the entire hole or "backfill" it to the top. it *WILL be encased in concrete. 
*
There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top. 

I understand your definition of backfilled to mean to the top... right?

I've never hear the word backfilled as applied to posts, only foundations. Could be just me, tho? :|


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> OK, here we go again. If you set the post in the hole, end resting on soil or gravel, THEN fill the entire hole or "backfill" it to the top. it *WILL be encased in concrete.
> *
> There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top.
> 
> ...


Yes, except for the bottom, the post is encased in concrete all the way to the top and sometimes more. When the posts get wet they swell a bit and tend to crack the concrete. The cracks don't seem to affect the grip the concrete has on the post but in recent years I've starting putting a form around the top of the hole and put rebar around the post to help reduce the cracks. Then one building which has a concrete floor the posts were put in the ground flush to the ground level and then the floor was poured around the posts.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

unburled said:


> It just occurred to me that a big benefit of encasing the post in concrete is that chemical leaching is reduced.


What I have read (and considered) on that aspect of this topic the only thing this does is slow down and/or concentrate not only the toxins within older wood posts but adds whatever toxins are within the concrete itself. Many fail to realize (or choose to ignore?) the toxicity of the concrete additives themselves and/or the industry itself at large. This was reflected in the article you shared which I am still digesting and others have thank me for sharing with them...I pass that on to you for bring it to my attention...:laugh2:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...The fact of the matter is I have had around 80 treated posts set in concrete on my place. If there was an issue with them rotting I would know it...


Steve...to claim "fact" about something that is only within your own small world of observation, and/or within a narrow scope of anecdotal related examples...is more than your prerogative...:| It is a fact only to you then...as you validate nothing that is supported by a larger majority nor even observable by others that can draw the same conclusions from the same observations...

This then only a narrow view...

It does not change contextual and empirical observations to the contrary of what you claim is "fact." Within the architectural profession and field of building science... *it is considered bad practice*...for the reasons and facts given...



Steve Neul said:


> ...In my case the posts are not encased in concrete...


That is still considered (by industry standards) an OPC embedded/encapsulation. It traps damp concrete against wood, (just like wrapping it in a sponge) and creates a shear plane at the base of the post where the wood is often (or permanently) damp. Again, *not allow within Code of some municipalities...
*



Steve Neul said:


> ...I don't know of anyone that would pour cement in a hole and then put the post in...


If that is a true statement Steve, then you are reflecting clearly..."not knowing"...very much about proper construction methods for post archtiecture...

This is another reason I struggle with novice and DIYers comming to forums and "trusting" that the person giving them advise actually *knows what they are talking about*...:|

*Plinth placement*...whether at grade or sub-grade is standard practice in proper post placement for such architecture. Not to do so goes beyond...bad practice...and* is simply the wrong way to do it.* It can be...gotten away with...(like many other things) from fences and related applications, but getting away with something is not the same as doing it properly or justification for suggesting others also do it poorly...

Put simply...do as you wish...*its still considered the wrong approach within the building profession at large...and is poor practice to recommend to others just because you think it is correct...*


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Pointless to discuss any longer ....*

No minds are being changed here. Time to move on before it gets any worse... JMO. :|


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Not a fan of concrete, but if you are going to use concrete make sure the concrete slopes away from the post so water does not pool around the post.


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## JoeFromSD (Feb 23, 2015)

I always set them in concrete but then I'm in a pretty dry climate. Slope the concrete away and wrap the bottom of the post with a copper band. As it oxidizes the copper solution that washes down kills all the rot which always starts right at grade.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Steve...to claim "fact" about something that is only within your own small world of observation, and/or within a narrow scope of anecdotal related examples...is more than your prerogative...:| It is a fact only to you then...as you validate nothing that is supported by a larger majority nor even observable by others that can draw the same conclusions from the same observations...
> 
> This then only a narrow view...
> 
> ...


I haven't seen you display any evidence to the contrary of what I have posted. You are only reporting what others have written. What I am posting is 45 years of first hand experience with treated wood. Then you don't know the reason behind what is written. There was a time when treated posts were tagged with a lifetime warranty. I suspect objection to mounting them in concrete was a way they could weasel out of the warranty on the posts that were just colored with the chemicals. On occasion I have see treated wood which I have cut in two and you can clearly see the center of the posts were not treated. The fact of the matter is if the post is treated all the way through neither setting them in damp ground nor encasing them in concrete will cause them to rot. It's the lack of being properly treated that causes the rot. In the end your contention that is bad practice to set posts in concrete is just your opinion and propaganda.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> No minds are being changed here. Time to move on before it gets any worse... JMO. :|


:|...Respectfully to your opinion Woodnthings, my intent is not ever to change anyone's mind...Not ever!!!

I can only hope that the more intelligent, engaged and less ego driven will at least think about a topic...

I know many members here do, or I would not stay. Just as I know many more "read" posts, than respond to posts. In that, there is at least the spread of proper information for any to consider.

I would not stay within conversations like this one (or even this forum) if I did not get positive feedback "off line" from both other members, and often (like in this case) from the OP themselves...I am, for that, thankful...your opinion not withstanding...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Sound Advice...if one insists on doing this...*



FrankC said:


> Not a fan of concrete, but if you are going to use concrete make sure the concrete slopes away from the post so water does not pool around the post.


Now that I can more than agree with Frank...:vs_smile:

*I'm also glad your not a fan of this practice*....However, I more than agree, if one insist on using this method (for any reason?) then a sloped and/or covered capping is very advisable, as is other augmentations if one insists on employing this method, which I will add to another post...



JoeFromSD said:


> I always set them in concrete but then I'm in a pretty dry climate. Slope the concrete away and wrap the bottom of the post with a copper band. As it oxidizes the copper solution that washes down kills all the rot which always starts right at grade.


Hi Joe,

It's been a while...:smile2: Good to read something from you! Hope business is good out there!!! :laugh2:

Many do, as stated, still embed in concrete. You are also, as observed in a very dry climate...That aside, and like Frank's similar suggesting, if one is going to continue to use concrete to embed a post, then adding a slope is advisable as well. Your addition of a copper cover is an excellent augmentation...

*However, neither of these augmentation changes that it is now considered...outside the scope of good practice to embed wood posts for the reasons I have thus shared...*


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...I haven't seen you display any evidence to the contrary of what I have posted. You are only reporting what others have written...


I can't help with what you "haven't seen," but it is there, both from my 40 plus years of work in historic restoration, and building practice, as well as, documented by others within the industry...

:|...Again, if you chose not to agree with others that is your pejorative Steve...



Steve Neul said:


> ..What I am posting is 45 years of first hand experience with treated wood. Then you don't know the reason behind what is written...


To suggest I'm the one that doesn't know something about the current topic Steve, compared to what you have shared is simple obtuse. Again it's not my place to make or even want you to agree with me, its your chose to do as you wish...

Since you seem driven to validate your credentials against my own I would suggest that your "45 years of first hand experience" has no more merit than my own does... 

My record of work is well documented and online both in writing I have done on forums, blogs, project profiles. Further, my C.V., professional letters of recommendation and related documentation is all available for review and vetting for anyone wishing to see it. By all means submit your own for the same level of consideration? I would really like to read more about your accomplishments in architecture and woodworking...as well as see pictures of your work, projects you have worked on, or even that of collegues you work with?

On this topic, I firmly suggest your "opinions" are incorrect, and I have validated why with as much documentation as possible...I think my posts, thus far, clearly state why I think its important for inexperience readers to know why the accomplished and experienced builders feel this way...not just me...



Steve Neul said:


> ...The fact of the matter is if the post is treated all the way through neither setting them in damp ground nor encasing them in concrete will cause them to rot. It's the lack of being properly treated that causes the rot...


No Sir...you stating this with each post, and me submitting more examples (as I have) of why this isn't true is pointless...

*It is not the fact of the matter...it is your opinion on the topic...* 

It is an obtuse conclusions, at best, and simply silly to counter an observable reality of posts set in OPC..*.no matter the treatment modality*...Posts set in concrete have and will continue to decay faster with each passing year compared to those methods that allow them to dry more rapidly...

If you feel following your methods are best...that is (again) your prerogative...



Steve Neul said:


> ...In the end your contention that is bad practice to set posts in concrete is just your opinion and propaganda...


:vs_laugh:...I guess all those other builders are also wrong according to your view point Steve...???...Again, please submit you credentials for review, sense you have taken it upon yourself to challenged my own...I am fine with that comparison...:smile2:

>>>

*Not the very best video...but the first that popped when I actually looked for something else more "graphic" on a topic that is allegedly just "my opinion?"*


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I can't help with what you "haven't seen," but it is there, both from my 40 plus years of work in historic restoration, and building practice, as well as, documented by others within the industry...
> 
> :|...Again, if you chose not to agree with others that is your pejorative Steve...
> 
> ...


If you notice nobody here has any experience with treated wood rotting because of concrete or anything else. Others have said the post sit for decades without a problem. The problem is not with the concrete it's wood that isn't properly treated. It's no wonder if a company is selling a defective product they don't want it set in concrete where it would rot faster but it's like anything else a person has to do go to the trouble and make sure the wood they are using is actually treated. If you cut the ends off the wood prior to using it you can quickly tell if the wood is treated or not. The Yellawood brand treated lumber is the worst offender in my experience. I took back a whole load of 2x6's last year I was going to use for a deck because it wasn't treated all the way through. If wood is properly treated it will last regardless of how it is used. It will last far longer set in concrete in damp ground than it would in the direct sun above ground. At least it doesn't turn gray and get some surface cracks.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> OK, here we go again. If you set the post in the hole, end resting on soil or gravel, THEN fill the entire hole or "backfill" it to the top. it *WILL be encased in concrete.
> *
> There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top.
> 
> ...



"There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top."


Who would do this and why?


George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nobody I know personally, George ...*



GeorgeC said:


> "There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top."
> Who would do this and why?
> George



I just know that it is done. Lowes seems to think is an acceptable method:
https://www.lowes.com/projects/porch-deck-and-patio/build-a-deck-post-holes-and-framing/project


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*It's more than "acceptable method"...it is within IBC standards of good practice...*



woodnthings said:


> I just know that it is done. Lowes seems to think is an acceptable method:


That was a good example graphic to grab Woodnthings...:smile2:

It is actually in IBC and within many local building departments (here and overseas) as a mandated practice...

I'll expand more below to illustrate better the working examples and history of it...



GeorgeC said:


> "There are folks who will pour a small amount of concrete into the hole, let it set up, THEN put the post on top."...Who would do this and why?...George


Great question George...Thanks for asking that! :laugh2: Let me know if I can expand on anything below? Also note that some of the text has links attached with many photos you may find interesting. I can expand on those as well if you have quesitons about something or why it was done that way?

So...in the contemporary version of a tradtional "post in ground" method of building a "plinth" is still part of the system...whether below grade or above. Even in systems like "poteaux-en-terremodalities" it was custmery to have a plinth at the base of the posts whenenver plausible or fisable to do so. In many methods, this also acts as a "sump" for more effeciently draining water away from the post as rapidly as possible. The other purpose of these plinth (below grade or above) is to facilitate the appropriate load distribution from the "point load" the post is generating...be it a mail box or a house...or...even a Skyscraper, as most of those are "post in ground" architecture also...but they work in concert with a "friction pile system" as part of the system. The acient city of Venice Italy is also "post in ground" supported traditional "piles" that are then caped by "stone plinth" and then the timber and stone structures above where built...much this was done underwater, which is a very astounding accomplishment...

In Japan, as another example, because of there tectonic instability (aka earthquakes) they have several combined systems where there are below grade stone plinth and above grade plinth both working in concert with each other...(ひかりつけ定規...ひかり付けによる礎石と柱の据え付け...[URL="https://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%81%B2%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8A%E3%81%A4%E3%81%91&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz8MaB94zhAhWs7YMKHb_RCMwQ_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=625"]ひかりつけ[/URL]) This is the system I employ for both my public, commercial and domestic architecture designs in most projects. I use no concrete at all (or very little depending on bearing capacities of the cohesive soils within an area.) I also try to use "natural cements,"  (Note: the link is to one of the countries leading authorities on Cements and dear colleague who has taught me more about cements over the years than anyone else I know. His web page and other writing is a treasure trove of understanding about cements...) Whenever possible, these natural cements present as greatly superior to modern OPC and are more sustainable material in the long run as well...Stone is still superior to concrete most application in countless ways. Combining the natural cements, limes and stone has give humans the most enduring archtiecture in the world...still unmatched for durability than any modern system yet.... Unfortunately, decades of not using it has left the current generations atrophied in there ability (and understanding) of how to properly apply the methods of application stone...at least here in America...is very lacking in most builders today...

Hope you found this post helpful...?

j


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If you notice nobody here has any experience with treated wood rotting because of concrete or anything else.


???...:vs_worry:...Really...???..."nobody here has experience with treated wood rotting"....???

Steve, do you choose to be contrary by intent? It is both unproductive and pointless to be that way...if you are?

I've stated it rots....It may be a slow decay, but it still is decay nonetheless...and...it is exacerbated by the OPC...when compared to systems without concrete...

That was reflected by the fellow in the video, and all the other links I have provided...Unless you actually believe you have more experience in designing, building and working with architecture than I do...???...couldn't you perhaps consider that my 40 plus years of experience may just have some bearing and experiences outside your point of context and understanding?

If not...???...then I must suggest such thinking behavior is intentionally stolid and imperceptive...

You may believe whatever you wish...and build as you see fit...I won't, however, let inexperienced readers and those trying to learn, see your example for anything but...bad practice...which it is...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> ???...:vs_worry:...Really...???..."nobody here has experience with treated wood rotting"....???
> 
> Steve, do you choose to be contrary by intent? It is both unproductive and pointless to be that way...if you are?
> 
> ...


This whole conversation is getting idiotic. Of course treated wood will eventually rot but the installation in concrete isn't going to help that process. My point is I set my first posts in concrete around 50 years ago and I've never seen any properly treated wood rot no matter who or how it was installed. Most posts I see done by others are set in concrete and there isn't a problem. If the wood is properly treated I don't think anyone could make it rot unless they back filled the hole with something like stump remover. If a post rots then it's not treated all the way through.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> This whole conversation is getting idiotic. Of course treated wood will eventually rot but the installation in concrete isn't going to help that process.


It's your prerogative Steve, to believe that...

I can't speak to what you "claim" you have seen...I can only speak to what I have shared and given examples from others...

Your "opinions" and "I think" concepts are not...good practice...nor is it reflected out in the world as being true...

Again, build as you wish...:|


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