# FESTOOL...uh, how much?



## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

So we were in Woodcraft not long ago and the guys in there just love to push the Festool lineup. I mean, they talk about those tools like you just sit back in a comfy chair with a cold one as the tool races around the shop doing all the work by itself.:blink:

I tested out their 6" orbital sander. Great tool, incredibly smooth consistent power, even when you leaned your weight down on it. They had a piece of 10" crosscut walnut that they had sanded up to a shine using the available discs up to 800gt. Cool stuff, but $500 bucks?

Chop saw. There may be such thing as too many features. Saws have come a long way in twenty years, but there has to be a ceiling and I think Festool created it with a $1300 price tag. The hundred dollar 10" blade didn't do much for either. For the last two years we went from DeWalt's higher end finish blades, to the gold RIGID blades from Home Depot. Great blade for the buck if you haven't tried them.

So I was wondering if any of you guys own any of these tools and if you do, is the price tag worth it? They have a great warranty on them, but so do most power tools these days.

All in all, I'm convinced they are a very good tool to own, and as with most imported technology I'm sure their accuracy is almost spot on. But! Skill on the user end has to be considered first when measuring the usefulness of the latest, coolest, you gotta-have-this gadget...right?

http://festools-online.com/shopproducts.html


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

If I may be so impertinent, I think Festool is playing on folks desire to impress other people with the cost of their tools. It's kind of an American tradition - maybe worldwide - to value ones self with the cost of their possesions. Yeah, I've fooled around with their stuff at demos. Nice tools, but I figure 25-30% of the cost consists of bragging rights.

Me...I'd rather put the cash into killer hunks of wood to work with.


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## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

I agree Boardman. However I would have no problem trying their tools for a 12 month, no money down risk free demo program...:thumbsup:


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

A couple months ago I was in our local woodworker / contractor supply chain and the Festool was tucked away in the corner, didn't look like it was selling to well. I would also have to agree with Boardman.


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## goingenoan (May 24, 2008)

Ok, I guess I'll be the first to confess to owning a Festool! Yeah, the price sucks,:blink: but..... I have a small shop that is only 8' wide at my table saw area so cutting full sheets of plywood is a real you know what!:furious: :wallbash: I looked at those vertical panel saws but at $1500+ :thumbdown: and no room to spare in my shop I consigned myself to rough cutting the sheats with a skil saw and then finish cutting them on the table saw if they were manageable. 
Anyway I was visiting a nearby cabinet shop and they had just purchased a bunch of Festool products (looked like Christmas)! They had a TS 55 EQ (circular saw) with a couple of guide rails sitting there and invited me to try it out. Wow! You put a pencil mark on the edges of the sheet, drop the guide rail right on the marks, place the saw on the guide rail and rip away! It made a no- splinter, dead straight line cut right then and there! 
And the other bonus for my small shop is the saw and guide rail can be tucked away in a corner or overhead so I don't have to give up dedicated space!:smile: It may or may not pay for itself but my blood pressure and frustration levels has been reduced considerably and thus possibly adding a year or two to my lifespan so....:icon_smile:

_________________________________________________________

Work to live not live to work!


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## OldnBroken (Jul 29, 2008)

Festool are nice tools but don't perform better enough than others to justify the cost. 

As far as your blades, this is an area I am willing to spend the money on. The quality of the blade matters as much or more as the quality of the tool it's on. I use systematic on my tablesaw and freud has finer blades that are actually reasonable for your chopsaws and such. ($60-100 range). Not sure who actually makes rigid/dewalt blades, I think I'll research that.


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## Butch (Dec 18, 2006)

Are they WORTH the cost? I'm not qualified to speak for anyone but myself, but I'd have to say No. 
are they good tools? no doubt they are fine tools... but are they up to 4Xs the quality? not on my budget, but other WW'ers may have more cash flo, or can use a business tax credit on purchases. having the best possible equipment is must in the business world,and should also be a consideration for the home-shop WW'er,too. but from what I've seen, they are too expensive for the average home-shop guys... at least for this one...:yes:


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I am too poor to walk into the Festool alter at my local Woodcraft. Last time I even got close to that section of the store my CC caught fire and my wife automatically started calling my mobile............


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

joesdad:

"Skill on the user end has to be considered first when measuring the usefulness of the latest, coolest, you gotta-have-this gadget...right?"

In some ways it reminds me of the golf industry. Every year a new, "fail-safe" putter is trundled out at every increasing prices. But if you haven't developed to skill to read greens and judge speed and distance, a gold plated putter won't help. I've used the same $20 putter for years.

That's overstatement in regards to Festool - they have incorporated many top-of-the-life features into many of their tools. But it's not the magic fix.


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## Butch (Dec 18, 2006)

Boardman said:


> In some ways it reminds me of the golf industry. Every year a new, "fail-safe" putter is trundled out at every increasing prices. But if you haven't developed to skill to read greens and judge speed and distance, a gold plated putter won't help. I've used the same $20 putter for years.


 :thumbsup:


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## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

Boardman said:


> In some ways it reminds me of the golf industry. Every year a new, "fail-safe" putter is trundled out at every increasing prices. But if you haven't developed to skill to read greens and judge speed and distance, a gold plated putter won't help. I've used the same $20 putter for years.


Yup.

True story: I'm lucky if I play golf a few times a year (wish I had more time) We were playing a benefit tournament consisting of all guys in the trades. Play a hole, drink a beer, repeat.

A good friend of mine was in our group and was slicing his tee shots horribly. Mine were about as good as they usually are, fairly straight but lacking any impressive distance. So about half way through the course my friend tells us to wait as we get to the next hole. He runs off the course and through about fifty yards of knee high grass, up over a small stone wall and then another hundred feet to the side entrance of the club house.

We all thought he ran up there to go in and drop a deuce or something and waited patiently for him to come back out. He finally exits the clubhouse and we could see he's carrying a brand new driver (tag still dangling) He runs back down to the tee where we're waiting, soaked in sweat and says something like "This should fix it" We're all laughing our butts off and ask how much the club was...$465.00

So as expected, he set his ball up and proceeds to crank up and launch the largest shovel full of earth and grass twenty feet out with his ball doing a slow roller just barely past the woman's markers.

We'll never let him live that one down.:laughing:

I got you beat Boardman, I think I paid $14.00 for my putter, and old set of Spalding irons, but I did spend a little on two of my Taylor Made drivers.


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## Ohio Ron (Dec 22, 2007)

If you are going to spend that much, go to a pro and see what he uses, read reviews from users and magazines. Do your research first. If you are a sometimes user, you can buy 4 cheaper ones for the price of one of them. It all depends on you and your use for tools. I have a couple of expensive tools that have only been used a couple of times. They did great for the few times I used them. Were they worth it. *NO.
*At least not for me.

my 2 cents.

Ron


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## JackC (May 24, 2008)

It can be argued that Snap-On tools are the best in the business. But a $10 Craftsman wrench does the same job a $100 Snap-On does. But if you work 40+ hours a week turning wrenches chances are you'll end up with a box full of Snap-On. They fit your hand better, IMHO. Built to closer tolerances so they don't slip,,as often. Rarely fail. 

In today's world time is money, you lose money everytime you have to check accuracy before making a cut. A friend has the Festool "skil" saw and track system, he can cut down to size several 4 x 8 sheets before I do one, and his cuts are more accurate. I can see why a pro would use them, it's time and material saved = money. I don't think it's so much a matter of trying to impress anyone if your a pro. A hobbyist on the other hand is a different matter but if you have the resources go for it.

Btw, I do realize that many tool companies have copied the fit and finish of Snap-On tools recently. I bought mine in 1971 and have no regrets.


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

joesdad - that's an absolutely classic golf story!!!


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## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

JackC said:


> It can be argued that Snap-On tools are the best in the business. But a $10 Craftsman wrench does the same job a $100 Snap-On does. But if you work 40+ hours a week turning wrenches chances are you'll end up with a box full of Snap-On. They fit your hand better, IMHO. Built to closer tolerances so they don't slip,,as often. Rarely fail.
> 
> In today's world time is money, you lose money everytime you have to check accuracy before making a cut. A friend has the Festool "skil" saw and track system, he can cut down to size several 4 x 8 sheets before I do one, and his cuts are more accurate. I can see why a pro would use them, it's time and material saved = money. I don't think it's so much a matter of trying to impress anyone if your a pro. A hobbyist on the other hand is a different matter but if you have the resources go for it.
> 
> Btw, I do realize that many tool companies have copied the fit and finish of Snap-On tools recently. I bought mine in 1971 and have no regrets.


Well said Jack. I agree. When I started out all my tools were just to get the feel for what the hell I'm supposed to be doing with the materials that were laid out in front of me. It was only after a number of years that I could appreciate something as simple as _like you mentioned _a better grip. I went through four different circular saws over a number of years till I tried the Makita one that I use now. It has the perfect balance and weight for me, and my cuts improved with the fit. The guys with their eight pound worm drives can keep'em.

With time and experience came the understanding and awareness for fine tuning my needs. I don't mind spending the dime if I think a tool is going to expedite and enhance my time in the shop, or on site.

As far as the FESTOOL goes, like I said, I'm not bashing them in any way, but I think the only tool in their line up that would be something I'd consider _is_ their panel saw set-up.

I'm glad you brought up the mechanics tools because I used to wrench on my dirtbike a lot and have a modest small tool chest full of the basics and most of it is all Craftsman with the exception of those damn specialty tools that they really seem to rake you on.
No need for Snap-On, but I bet if I was doing it every day in a shop, I'd be emptying my pockets for that guy every time he rolled in.


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## Butch (Dec 18, 2006)

JackC said:


> In today's world time is money, you lose money everytime you have to check accuracy before making a cut.


that's a very true, and very sad statement. I fear we've taken something away with that attitude, as a nation. I believe we're walking a fine line now between hand-made and mass produced because of time equalling money...
I do understand the reason tho...


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## mahala homecraft (Sep 9, 2013)

*Festool owner?*

I have Makita's copy of the Festool track saw, and a friend of mine has the Festool itself. There are a couple of subtle differences, but they are basically the same saw, systainer included, and the accessories are even compatible. So in both cases, we're talking about a great system, not just a great tool.

The Festool costs about 550 and the Makita costs about 350.

The Festool has a riving knife. The Makita doesn't.

The Makita has a finger that locks into the track, which is very helpful for doing those hanging-over-the-rail running angle cuts. The Festool doesn't.

The Festool has detents for the depth adjustment. The Makita doesn't.

Side-by-side, the Festool has a slightly better feel to it.

Are a riving knife, some detents, and a better feel worth an extra $200? I don't think so.

I love the Festool brand, and more importantly I love what they've done for the tool industry. If not for them, I don't think the track saw would exist yet, and the track saw is, hands down, the best tool that I own. It is expensive, but it's also phenomenally accurate and much faster to use than a table saw. When you put your mind to it, the range of applications can become staggering.

I recently purchased a Festool drill on Craigslist and another on Ebay. The one I got from Ebay came with all the chucks, which normally sell for $115 apiece, and a $60 systainer, and I got it for $125, but the batteries were no good. I got a newer model C12 without the chucks but that still works well and has good batteries for $220.

So this is a $345 drill, and for what it can do I think its worth every penny. But for the MSRP of $585 for the current model including the chucks? Nope. Soon enough, other tool companies will start copying the Festool drills, too, and in 10 years this won't be anything you can't get from Ryobi.

So the moral of the story is this: All us cabinet makers and woodworkers out there owe Festool a debt of gratitude, but that doesn't mean we should shell out that kind of cash for what they're selling.


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## J.C. (Jan 20, 2012)

Festool is my first choice in handheld power tools and there are a few reasons for that. First one would be they make good high quality tools. 

Second, if you ever do have a problem, give them a call and an actual person answers the phone and they do what it takes to help you out and make it right.

And the most important reason to me is you know what you're getting and where it is coming from. You buy a cordless drill, the drill is made in Germany, the battery is made in Germany, the charger is made in Germany, the case is made in Germany. Every single other manufacturer puts everything out to the lowest bidder. If they can get some company in some third world country using slave labor to produce a battery charger for 10 cents cheaper, that's where the new battery chargers are coming from. I find that practice absolutely appalling and want nothing to do with it.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

mahala homecraft said:


> *The Festool costs about 550 and the Makita costs about 350.*


Makita costs about $350 for the saw, as far as I could find. The kit, with 55" track, is north of $700. That's on Amazon, if you know of a better deal, I'd be interested. Right now I'm considering the Festool with 110" of track which will be running about $850.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

I really hate how people bash Festool because of the price. If you can't afford them, you get the best you can afford.

For me, in my small shop, they are they best tools I've used so far. The dust collection is far superior to other hand tools and that's important to me and my lungs.

I have the Festool Kapex miter saw, a sander, the TS55REQ track saw, the MFT/3 table and clamps, and the Domino joiner. All of these tools have superb dust collection with their HEPA vacs and leave me with cleaner air and shop.

I can't handle moving a 4x8 sheet on the table saw, but now I can cut it down easily and precisely, repeatedly. The 3000mm track makes beautiful full length rips of 8 foot plywood, with finished edges.

Since I got the Kapex, my Dewalt miter saw sits in the corner for rough work outside, where dust control isn't an issue. I'd sell it if I can find a buyer. My old biscuit joiner hasn't come out of the case since I got the Domino.

I will be buying more of their sanders, as that's a job I used to hate because of the dust cloud, but their sanders are awesome for containing most of it.

I will be buying more of their tools, as funds permit.

People can talk about the Sawstop being high priced for a table saw, but I will eventually get one of those too, since it has great dust collection and safety.

Oh, and I really don't care who knows I have them, or if anyone even sees them. They're in my shop for me, and only me. Top notch German engineering, just like the VW Jetta I used to have... and would have no problem buying another someday.

My 2 cents.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

joesdad said:


> The hundred dollar 10" blade didn't do much for either. For the last two years we went from DeWalt's higher end finish blades, to the gold RIGID blades from Home Depot. Great blade for the buck if you haven't tried them.
> http://festools-online.com/shopproducts.html


That's because the gold Ridgid is really a Freud Diablo with a different finish. Any Freud blade is going to impress.


As for Festool being worth it - there's a subset of people it definitely is worth it. Then there's a subset of people who it isn't worth it but owning Festool brings a certain pleasure. Then there's a subset of show-off's...


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## mahala homecraft (Sep 9, 2013)

jschaben said:


> Makita costs about $350 for the saw, as far as I could find. The kit, with 55" track, is north of $700. That's on Amazon, if you know of a better deal, I'd be interested. Right now I'm considering the Festool with 110" of track which will be running about $850.







Here's the makita with a 55" rail on amazon for 400. An extra rail costs 90.

I got really lucky when I bought mine. I found one on Craigslist for $250, brand new. Apparently thus guy had accidentally bought 2 of them and was unable to return the second one. After driving all the way to Sea Girt to pick it up (the longest of many lengthy Craigslist drives), I found a close out on the makita rails at a now defunct website and got 2 55 inchers for $85.

So I got my whole set up for $335. I'd like to pick up a 110" rail but I find the cost prohibitive, and I can't see the increase in accuracy over joined 55's being worth it.

If you do get a track saw, do yourself a favor and make the first project you use it on a rail case. I could maybe upload the one I made in the sketchup warehouse if anyone's interested.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

I own four Festool sanders (ETS 125, ETS 150-3, RO 125 & RO 90 DX), a CT26 dust collector and their tradesman vacuum tool kit. I bought the track saw but their track coupling engineering was too inferior so I returned the saw and track for a full refund.

I absolutely LOVE their sanders but I think a good part of that is because of the CT26. The sander-vac combo has virtually eliminated sawdust problems. I no longer hate sanding and I no longer feel drugged for days from the dust that sanding used to create. And I have always worn a respirator.

But there is no question that for some, owning a Festool is like owning a Matisse. You buy it, put it on a shelf and show it off to your friends. I don't get that. I saw a poll for those who owned a Domino joiner on how often they use it. On average, maybe once or twice a year. And it's a $1000+ investment once you have all the accessories and dominoes. If you go to the Festool forum you'd think some of these guys are addicts.

Festool really hits you hard when you buy their accessories and consumables. For each sander I bought, I'll bet I spent half again as much, or more, on their sandpaper. Their hole configuration is patented so you have to buy their paper. That whole thing doesn't sit well with me.

I doubt I'll buy any more Festools because I don't see the need for it, but I don't regret buying the sanders and vac. I no longer dread the after effects of sanding because they are gone. That was worth the price.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Julie Mor said:


> I bought the track saw but their track coupling engineering was too inferior so I returned the saw and track for a full refund.


 
Hi Julie - That's the system I am looking at. Can you be a bit more specific about the coupling issues? May help decide between that and the Makita although I haven't looked to closely at the deWalt yet...

BTW, you should check the Kreg forum sometime for a dose of addicts. :smile:


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

jschaben said:


> Hi Julie - That's the system I am looking at. Can you be a bit more specific about the coupling issues? May help decide between that and the Makita although I haven't looked to closely at the deWalt yet...
> 
> BTW, you should check the Kreg forum sometime for a dose of addicts. :smile:


I ignored the 'coupling' issue and bought the FS3000 rail... never have to couple rails and I can rip a full 4x8 sheet, straight as can be.

Most of the people with couplers have no issues, taking the necessary minute or two to align with a straight edge, and have been using two shorter rails with no problems.

:edit


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## J.C. (Jan 20, 2012)

Julie Mor said:


> Their hole configuration is patented so you have to buy their paper. That whole thing doesn't sit well with me.


I'm unsure of other brands like 3m and Norton but I know Klingspor has sanding discs for Festool sanders.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

jtmorrow said:


> I ignored the 'coupling' issue and bought the FS3000 rail... never have to couple rails and I can rip a full 4x8 sheet, straight as can be.
> 
> Most of the people with couplers have no issues, taking the necessary minute or two to align with a straight edge, and have been using two shorter rails with no problems.
> 
> :edit


The problem I would have with the 3000 rail would be storage, thing is nearly 10' long. I'm looking at the Guide rail accessory kit plus an extra 55" rail. From what I understand from my reading is that you need two couplers on each joint to attain the desired rigidity.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I don't really do the type of work that many of these tools are made for. The first time I saw Festool I thought they were just another cheap tool. Mostly due to the green plastic. I realize they are a well made tool and have some very nice features but I don't really work the way they are made. I have a large shop and space isn't a problem. I never work in someone else's home and don't do much carpentry.

I have a question for any Festool owners. What are the advantages and reasons the sanders have such odd shaped handles. 

Also something to consider when contemplating over the high price is the fact that Festool comes from one of the most economically distressed countries in Europe. Their taxes play a big part in the price.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

jschaben said:


> Hi Julie - That's the system I am looking at. Can you be a bit more specific about the coupling issues? May help decide between that and the Makita although I haven't looked to closely at the deWalt yet...
> 
> BTW, you should check the Kreg forum sometime for a dose of addicts. :smile:


Okay, I'll try...

When you are coupling the rails, Festool gives you two bars to secure the rails together. If you go to the Festool website, they recommend taking a known straight edge and place it against the rails and then tighten the set screws, so you know the joined rails are in perfect alignment. Problem is you need to flip the rails to secure both joining bars. And in doing so, you need to put that straight edge against the joined rails again because flipping them can cause them to go out of alignment.

Now, if you make a cut with the joined rails and want to duplicate that cut in another piece of plywood (or whatever) you have to make sure you don't bang, knock or hit the rail and take it out of parallel. If you do, start over again.

Bosch makes a coupler that looks pretty solid. But they only sell it in Europe. Mafell makes the identical coupler but their saws and rails are even more expensive than Festool. But many say they are that much better. Betterly makes an aftermarket joiner for Festool rails (why can't Festool do this!?!) and from the videos it seems to work pretty well.

Personally, if I made my living with tools made by Festool, I'd buy them and let them pay for themselves. And they would. They are a tradesperson-type tool company. But if what I did required tools made by Mafell, I'd buy them first and use Festools to fill in the blanks.

And if I was in Europe, I'd be seriously looking at Bosch.

Now, as to cutting with the Festool TS 55 REQ... The saw did a great job, once it was set up properly. Edges were smooth, but if you don't follow the instructions, you could be disappointed. The splinter guard worked pretty well. Dust collection was good. _(You have to make sure the splinter guard is set properly in order to get the most out of dust collection.)_

What made me send it back was the rail connectors. Festool charges a lot and they usually give a lot in return. But when Bosch and Mafell were using superior rail connectors, why not Festool? And when I took those suggestions to Festool... Pretty much what I got was, "Return the tool and shut up." That didn't sit well with me.

As for Makita, I have no experience but I've read many comments about Makita rail saws that were very positive. Good luck!


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

J.C. said:


> I'm unsure of other brands like 3m and Norton but I know Klingspor has sanding discs for Festool sanders.


LIB! Thanks! :smile:


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

*Just one more festool question.*

Does the TS 55 or 75 take a standard circ saw blade or is the blade proprietary to Festool. I passed on the Kapex because of the 30mm arbor. I quit buying Craftsman about 35 years ago because their staple gun would only take Craftsman staples and my attitude about stuff like that hasn't changed much. :thumbdown:


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

This post will probably generate several flames, for that I apologize in advance. 

Festool, there are questions and decisions.

Which universe do you live in and work in?
Home shop or professional.

If the answer is the "home" universe, then yes you can use Festool products. Is it a realistic choice? Only you can answer that. For me, I can get 9 or 10 DeWalt ROS sanders for the price of one Festool ROS so my choice is obvious. If you have a significant other and you do your woodworking in the living room, then Festool is mandatory if you want to stay with SO. 

If the answer is the "professional" universe, then you need to determine which planet you work on. If the planet is Newport Beach or Beverly Hills AND you're working in multimillion dollar homes WITH the residents living in them during construction, then Festool is just about mandatory. 

If your work is done in the garage, in the driveway or away from food preparation areas, Festool is nice but not really required. 

It has been implied that if you show up with anything other than Festool the customer knows that you're not a professional. If those are the type of clients that you are dealing with, I would expect that you're going to lose a lot of money on the job. 

The HUGE advantage to Festool is dust control. The Festool system does not collect dust but rather controls the dust. The system is very impressive when it comes to controlling dust. I have seen Festool demos done inside and on a vinyl tile floor. At the end of the day there was almost nothing to sweep up. (I KNOW because I was the guy that had to do the sweeping.)

There was a sale Labor Day weekend at Ace where a DeWalt ROS were going for $50. (Honolulu) The obvious question, 'Is a Festool ROS $450 better than a $50 DeWalt?' I don't know because I'm in the wrong universe. I am sure that somebody will be able to tell us.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

rrich said:


> It has been implied that if you show up with anything other than Festool the customer knows that you're not a professional.


I worked in the building trades for 34 years. Not once did I see a single Festool on the job nor did anyone ever mention the brand. And never did a customer bring up the subject of the brand of tool I was using except to ask about the quality of tool, usually because they wanted the opinion of a professional to help them with their own purchase decision.

I know Festool WANTS you to believe theirs is the only tool that will signal to the customer you are a true professional, but at the end of the day, the true professional's quality of work is how we are judged.

I worked mostly commercial projects but I did maybe 100 homes and a few dozen small businesses. I worked in the field most of my career but I also spent over 8 years working as a project manager, where watching job costs is part of your job. I can't think of a single contractor that would have approved the cost of a Festool when there are alternatives that do the job just as well. The brands I saw most often were Milwaukee, Rigid and later, DeWalt. Once battery operated tools could meet the demands of the jobsite, DeWalt became the tool of choice.

So if you ever walk onto a jobsite and the customer criticizes your choice of tool because it's not Festool, tell them they have been watching too much TV.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

I normally have my jointer and planer tuned, to limit sanding to an absolute minimum. With highly figured woods, if I cannot dress afterwards with a hand plane using special blade angles, I will very occasionally resort to a drum sander, finishing with 220 grit paper. Even with that, one has to dress afterwards with an RO.

Any RO besides the Festool I have tried is slow, dusty and in general a PITA.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

I've moved on from Festool - too low end for me. Recently picked up this Lamello biscuit joiner for just under $3 grand - can't wait to have people over to admire it.
http://www.sears.com/lamello-zeta-p...-SPM1912817714?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

rbk123 said:


> I've moved on from Festool - too low end for me. Recently picked up this Lamello biscuit joiner for just under $3 grand - can't wait to have people over to admire it.
> http://www.sears.com/lamello-zeta-p...-SPM1912817714?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5
> 
> :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Ah, biscuits. I'm not smart enough to use them, or understand why they are necessary. :blink:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> I worked in the building trades for 34 years. Not once did I see a single Festool on the job nor did anyone ever mention the brand. And never did a customer bring up the subject of the brand of tool I was using except to ask about the quality of tool, usually because they wanted the opinion of a professional to help them with their own purchase decision.
> 
> I know Festool WANTS you to believe theirs is the only tool that will signal to the customer you are a true professional, but at the end of the day, the true professional's quality of work is how we are judged.
> 
> ...


+1

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WillemJM said:


> I normally have my jointer and planer tuned, to limit sanding to an absolute minimum. With highly figured woods, if I cannot dress afterwards with a hand plane using special blade angles, I will very occasionally resort to a drum sander, finishing with 220 grit paper. Even with that, one has to dress afterwards with an RO.
> 
> Any RO besides the Festool I have tried is slow, dusty and in general a PITA.


I had a question about the handles on the sanders. Seems a bit odd on some of them. Is it better or does it work well that way?

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> I had a question about the handles on the sanders. Seems a bit odd on some of them. Is it better or does it work well that way?
> 
> Al


The ETS 150 handle hasn't felt awkward to me. Maybe I just adjusted easily and never thought about it. I usually have my hand over the top but sometimes move to to the handle in order to ease fatigue if I'm sanding for long times. The 6" disk on the 150 really makes a difference in ensuring the pad lays flat on the surface and makes sanding easier. It's also a lot faster than 5" sanders.

The RO 125 is a bit of a beast and the handle on it quite large. You'd have to have a very large hand to fit around it. To control it, you're better off using two hands, one on top and one at the end where the dust hose connects. There's a learning curve to using this beast.

The RO 90 is a smaller version of the RO 125 and therefore easier to handle. I can use that with one hand but for delicate work I may use two hands.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Julie Mor said:


> I worked in the building trades for 34 years. Not once did I see a single Festool on the job nor did anyone ever mention the brand. And never did a customer bring up the subject of the brand of tool I was using except to ask about the quality of tool, usually because they wanted the opinion of a professional to help them with their own purchase decision.


Thank you for making my point with so much clarity.


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## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

rbk123 said:


> I've moved on from Festool - too low end for me. Recently picked up this Lamello biscuit joiner for just under $3 grand - can't wait to have people over to admire it.
> http://www.sears.com/lamello-zeta-p...-SPM1912817714?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5
> 
> :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Yeah, I'm afraid your cheapie, inexpensive tools aren't welcome anywhere near MY shop. If you aren't willing to spend over 3 grand for a biscuit joiner you obviously don't give a crap about the quality of your work. And you darned sure aren't what I'd call a "real woodworker".


:laughing:

That said: HOLY CRAP! And I thought Festool was over priced. Wow.

Actually, though, Festool makes some awesome jigsaws. But I just can't pay that much for a jigsaw. Not gonna' happen. :no:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> The ETS 150 handle hasn't felt awkward to me. Maybe I just adjusted easily and never thought about it. I usually have my hand over the top but sometimes move to to the handle in order to ease fatigue if I'm sanding for long times. The 6" disk on the 150 really makes a difference in ensuring the pad lays flat on the surface and makes sanding easier. It's also a lot faster than 5" sanders.
> 
> The RO 125 is a bit of a beast and the handle on it quite large. You'd have to have a very large hand to fit around it. To control it, you're better off using two hands, one on top and one at the end where the dust hose connects. There's a learning curve to using this beast.
> 
> The RO 90 is a smaller version of the RO 125 and therefore easier to handle. I can use that with one hand but for delicate work I may use two hands.


Thanks for your response. I guess I do sometimes hold on to my dust collection end with my other hand from time to time. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Made in Germany, says it all, they're for pros.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Ditto on German made, that says it all.
Before greedy outsourcing American corps, the best tools in the world came from Germany and the US.
"American" and other good names have sold out in order to "maximize" profits for shareholders.
These people just sit around collecting money while "selling" US jobs elsewhere.
Not happy with cheap labor they also cut specs, make steel parts with inferior soft metals or worse plastic.
If you're a pro, you appreciate the durability, dependability of a well made tool.
If you're a week-end hobbyist, then go Chinese, it'll do a few little home projects before you have to return to Wall Mart.


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## calwilliams63 (Dec 17, 2008)

OldnBroken said:


> Festool are nice tools but don't perform better enough than others to justify the cost.



How many Festools do you own guy??? Because everyone that I own out performs the brand I had previously.


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## calwilliams63 (Dec 17, 2008)

jschaben said:


> Makita costs about $350 for the saw, as far as I could find. The kit, with 55" track, is north of $700. That's on Amazon, if you know of a better deal, I'd be interested. Right now I'm considering the Festool with 110" of track which will be running about $850.



That's not true guy..... I bought my TS55 that comes with a guide rail for 550. Also, I just googled it and you can still buy them for the same price. The TS75 is only $695 at Woodcraft. Which is more saw than anyone would probably ever need. :thumbsup:


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## calwilliams63 (Dec 17, 2008)

rrich;51913
There was a sale Labor Day weekend at Ace where a DeWalt ROS were going for $50. (Honolulu) The obvious question said:


> You sir are not comparing apples to apples. The Festool ETS 125 which costs $185 would be comparable to the DeWalt ROS that is $79 at Home Depot and they are not even in the same league. So, that being said.... the dust collection that Festool offers and just the over-all quality of the tool is worth it IMO.


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## Tilaran (Dec 22, 2012)

Metabo all the way baby. Often imitated NEVER duplicated ! :thumbsup::boat:


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

calwilliams63 said:


> That's not true guy..... I bought my TS55 that comes with a guide rail for 550. Also, I just googled it and you can still buy them for the same price. The TS75 is only $695 at Woodcraft. Which is more saw than anyone would probably ever need. :thumbsup:


I was getting my prices from CPO, an authorized Festool distributor and yes, the TS55 was around $550 but I also said 110" of track. An extra 55" track is another $115 and the guide rail accessory kit which contains the couplers and a few other doodads is $200, bringing a total of $865.
I've also been looking at their dust extractors. It seems that they all, from the $435 CT mini to the $695 CT48 have identical specs with the exception of bag capacity. 137 CFM at no load and 96" of water at max load isn't terribly hard to achieve. My home vacuum does that for around $300 with about a 2-1/2 gallon capacity, 65db noise rating and HEPA filtration.:smile:


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Tilaran said:


> Metabo all the way baby. Often imitated NEVER duplicated ! :thumbsup::boat:


Also difficult to find a distributor in the states. I agree they are a top notch tool, unfortunately they haven't been marketing their full line of products in the US. Some drills, concrete working tools, some metal working but very little wood working. Not sure what kind of service support would be available here either.:thumbdown:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I have never really understood the "I can't afford that, so anyone else that can is a fool" attitude. We all make trade-offs, as a former smoker I can remember buying hamburger instead of steak so I could afford a pack of cigarettes, should I have resented my neighbour a non smoker eating steak?

Thankfully life is full of choices and consumers voting with their wallets determine what is on the market, I guess enough people buy these top end items to keep the manufacturers in business, Apple, BMW and Mercedes seem to be doing quite well.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for that Frank, I'm with you. Only you yourself can decide if a tool ( or other use of discretionary income) is worth it to you. What may be an extravagance to me might very well be a necessity to someone else. I also wonder how many who bash pricier things have ever actually tried the items they bash. Am I going to bash someone about buying a Porsche having never driven one? No. Do I think it's crazy to spend that much money on a car? Yes, but that car is also well outside my budget, which influences that thought. If I had that kind of money maybe I'd see things differently. 

Anyway, buy what you want, use what you want and don't judge the person by their tools.


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## Domer (Mar 23, 2008)

*Fstool*

To each his own. I make furniture for my family and friends. I am in no way a professional shop. 

I have the Festool Domino, TS55, 1400 Router, 6" ROS and the dust collector.

I started with the Domino which is one of the best tool buys I have ever made. It is expensive, yes. But it makes wonderful and easy mortise and tenon joints with ease and accuracy. Plus as you take the machine to the wood, you can do end mortises on long and large pieces of wood which would be very hard to do with any other machine that I am aware of. And as someone else said, no dust. If you value your time at all, it is well worth the price. 

I also have the TS55. It is about $500 and not $750. (That is the TS75). When I bought the TS55, Dewalt and the others had not as yet brought out their track saws. Plus I was told that the Festool tools have beefier construction and should last longer that the competitors.

The 6" ROS again has little to no dust and I bought it before the other companies came out with better dust collection systems. 

One of the nice things about the Festool routers is that you can connect them to the same track that comes with the TS55. That often time makes a big difference. 

All in all, I am very happy with my Festool tools. While they are not inexpensive, they are very high quality tools that do what they say they will do. I have bought too many inexpensive tools that I regretted later not buying something better.


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## calwilliams63 (Dec 17, 2008)

jschaben said:


> I was getting my prices from CPO, an authorized Festool distributor and yes, the TS55 was around $550 but I also said 110" of track. An extra 55" track is another $115 and the guide rail accessory kit which contains the couplers and a few other doodads is $200, bringing a total of $865.
> I've also been looking at their dust extractors. It seems that they all, from the $435 CT mini to the $695 CT48 have identical specs with the exception of bag capacity. 137 CFM at no load and 96" of water at max load isn't terribly hard to achieve. My home vacuum does that for around $300 with about a 2-1/2 gallon capacity, 65db noise rating and HEPA filtration.:smile:


Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you have said. But, give me a call when that "home vac" dies then you have to buy another one. Will you really be saving money at that point?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bzguy said:


> Ditto on German made, that says it all.
> Before greedy outsourcing American corps, the best tools in the world came from Germany and the US.
> "American" and other good names have sold out in order to "maximize" profits for shareholders.
> These people just sit around collecting money while "selling" US jobs elsewhere.
> ...


Can't argue they are well made tools, out of plastic. High price is not only tied to the quality. It's also tied to the high taxation of a socialistic country. This is a perfect example of how it gets passed down to the consumer. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Made in Germany VS China says it all.
These tools are made for pros, if you're a week-end hobbyist go to Wall Mart and shop price.


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## Tilaran (Dec 22, 2012)

jschaben said:


> Also difficult to find a distributor in the states. I agree they are a top notch tool, unfortunately they haven't been marketing their full line of products in the US. Some drills, concrete working tools, some metal working but very little wood working. Not sure what kind of service support would be available here either.:thumbdown:


The board at Matabo probably watched the " People of Walmart "YouTube vids , went to HF and NT's websites:blink:, and determined it to be a waste of time marketing up'ar. We have a great supplier here:icon_cool:.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

calwilliams63 said:


> Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you have said. But, give me a call when that "home vac" dies then you have to buy another one. Will you really be saving money at that point?


Actually, it's an industrial vac used by many hotels, primarily for the db rating. Made by Numatic in England. I doubt you will find any at Wally World. I don't intend on using it for dust collection anyway, Will likely try to make my shop vac work as the performance specs, except for the noise, are at least equal to the ones for the Festool vac and doubling the cost would put the Festool track saw out of reach.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

jschaben said:


> I was getting my prices from CPO, an authorized Festool distributor and yes, the TS55 was around $550 but I also said 110" of track. An extra 55" track is another $115 and the guide rail accessory kit which contains the couplers and a few other doodads is $200, bringing a total of $865.
> 
> I've also been looking at their dust extractors. It seems that they all, from the $435 CT mini to the $695 CT48 have identical specs with the exception of bag capacity. 137 CFM at no load and 96" of water at max load isn't terribly hard to achieve. My home vacuum does that for around $300 with about a 2-1/2 gallon capacity, 65db noise rating and HEPA filtration.:smile:


The TS "kit" you quoted is exactly what I bought and returned (except it was the TS REQ 55). As I said before, my biggest issue was in joining the rails but chipout was a bit of a problem too. 

That $200 rail accessory kit you mentioned isn't worth it, IMHO. The angle unit is practically worthless. You can't secure it to the guide rail. You have to adjust the set screws and press it in place but it never holds for long and the screws gouge the inside of the rails. And the gauge isn't very accurate and won't hold an angle (there are no detents). It was easy to send that back!

When using the TS saws with a dust collector, you need the 36mm hose. With sanders you need the 27mm hose. I have the CT26 and both hoses. I bought the Tradesman cleaning kit that included the 36mm hose (which also requires the larger hose) as I had planned on buying the TS REQ 55. So somewhere along the line, if you have both sanders and saws, you'll need both size hoses. And they aren't cheap, unless you buy it as part of a kit.

The CT26 is very quiet, has an outlet for the tool that powers up the vac as soon as the tool is turned on and has anti-static features built in to keep stray static charges from ruining the sensitive electronics in the tools. I hate running my Craftsman shop vac now. Festool spoiled me.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

Julie Mor said:


> The TS "kit" you quoted is exactly what I bought and returned (except it was the TS REQ 55). As I said before, my biggest issue was in joining the rails but chipout was a bit of a problem too.
> 
> That $200 rail accessory kit you mentioned isn't worth it, IMHO. The angle unit is practically worthless. You can't secure it to the guide rail. You have to adjust the set screws and press it in place but it never holds for long and the screws gouge the inside of the rails. And the gauge isn't very accurate and won't hold an angle (there are no detents). It was easy to send that back!
> 
> ...


Hi Julie - thanks for the input. I'll have to check around and see if there is anywhere in a reasonable drive that I can touch/feel/smell the thingy. Starting to look like the Makita may be the better option, at least for me. deWalt seems to avoid the whole coupling issue by not doing it, just sell longer sets of rails, which does nothing for storage issues.
Thanks again:smile:


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Can't argue they are well made tools, out of plastic. High price is not only tied to the quality. It's also tied to the high taxation of a socialistic country. This is a perfect example of how it gets passed down to the consumer.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


OK, I give up, which side of the argument are you on?
You don't like stamped metal tools or paying the price for real ones either?
Socialism got a really undeserved bad name from pretenders like the former USSR and Chinese dictatorships who "borrowed" and misreprenseted the word.
Northern Europe is a shining example of Governments who take care of their citizen's health, education, etc., without a bloated an useless bureaucracy who cater to only the wealthy.
Do you think your work should be given to a slave in a dictatorship and done poorly with inferior skill and materials in order to save the consumer money?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bzguy said:


> OK, I give up, which side of the argument are you on?
> You don't like stamped metal tools or paying the price for real ones either?
> Socialism got a really undeserved bad name from pretenders like the former USSR and Chinese dictatorships who "borrowed" and misreprenseted the word.
> Northern Europe is a shining example of Governments who take care of their citizen's health, education, etc., without a bloated an useless bureaucracy who cater to only the wealthy.
> Do you think your work should be given to a slave in a dictatorship and done poorly with inferior skill and materials in order to save the consumer money?


Best off if you step out of your bubble and take a look at the taxes these countries pay. Sales tax in Germany is 7-19%. Germany income tax 29.8% (average)	0%	45%	41%, 15% for one of the many public health insurances (fixed rate by law), as well as a solidarity tax (depending on income) and a 26% social security tax (retirement + unemployment)	19% or 7% (e.g. food) Gee, they give you a break on food and only collect 7%. 
Sweden has a 37% sales tax. Income tax is close to 50%. The most in debt country in the world. Denmark income tax is 51%. Not to mention they all have a VAT.

WHO'S TAKING CARE OF WHOM?

BTW there isn't a cheap tool in my shop. Zero box store tools except the 12" DeWalt sliding cutoff saw. I have more money than I will ever spend. But I don't need the tools Festool makes. You jumped in here late or you would have read that in a earlier post. If your a carpenter and work in other peoples homes or you install cabinets you certainly could get the most out of Festool. 

Al B Thayer

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

Chiming in about the cost of tools because of their 'socialistic' origin???... that's just stupid.

Americans are producing plenty of crap... well, bringing in cheap parts from China and assembling them in USA so you can stamp "Made in" on them. Great idea.

I would choose to live in many European countries before I chose to live in USA and a big part of that decision is because of health care, education, etc. Look around your country and if you can't see people that are bankrupt because they needed surgery or something, then you are blind.

Oh, and let's not mention your banking system which milked hundreds of billions of dollars from taxpayers to put in the pockets of the very people that caused the problem. Ya, that's a good idea! Put tens of millions in the pockets of executives as bonus! It's not like it could have build new schools or something.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jtmorrow said:


> Chiming in about the cost of tools because of their 'socialistic' origin???... that's just stupid.
> 
> Americans are producing plenty of crap... well, bringing in cheap parts from China and assembling them in USA so you can stamp "Made in" on them. Great idea.
> 
> ...


Name calling. Thanks so much. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

Come on... look in the mirror.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jtmorrow said:


> Come on... look in the mirror.


Anybody want to brag about great tools from Canada. Anyone..... 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Best off if you step out of your bubble and take a look at the taxes these countries pay. Sales tax in Germany is 7-19%. Germany income tax 29.8% (average) 0% 45% 41%, 15% for one of the many public health insurances (fixed rate by law), as well as a solidarity tax (depending on income) and a 26% social security tax (retirement + unemployment) 19% or 7% (e.g. food) Gee, they give you a break on food and only collect 7%.
> Sweden has a 37% sales tax. Income tax is close to 50%. The most in debt country in the world. Denmark income tax is 51%. Not to mention they all have a VAT.
> 
> WHO'S TAKING CARE OF WHOM?
> ...


Whatever, I think you need a reality check.
The US is crumbling while the sheep read from the media controlled by the 1%.
YES, Denmark has a Debt to GDP ratio of 43.5, but they properly educate and render medical aid to their citizens.
The sheep in the US however are at a Debt to GDP ratio of 73.6 and what do you get?
Nothing unless you are in the 1%.
Source, Wikipedia, compiled by people with no agenda.
Take a course on critical thinking, question what you are fed by the people who rob you everyday.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm going to add one final thought to this thread, then not bother with it... and maybe not bother with WoodworkingTalk forum at all.

If you want to try good tools and can afford them, try out Festool. It is a system approach where items like the rails can be used for the circular saw, routers, jigsaws, etc.

I bought the TS55R as my first Festool product and was amazed with the dust containment and precision, especially using the rails on sheet goods. I used to have to break 4x8 sheets down to sizes a little larger than required, then re-cut the more manageable pieces. The TS saws leave me with finished edges, usually better than the factory (banged up from the store) edges.

I then picked up the Domino and a sander. If someone wants my Festools, they're going to have to pry them from my dead hands. I only wish I'd known about their line of sanders long ago.

Try one out. If you don't like how it works within 30 days, return it to the dealer, no questions asked. If you don't like it, don't bad mouth the product because of the price or where it's made. No one can please 100% of the people 100% of the time. What may not be great for you might be awesome for someone else. A Lincoln Navigator may be a great vehicle, but they're not for me and I'll never buy one. Should I bad mouth them because I think they are overpriced?



railaw said:


> Wow. What responses. I think Al was pointing out the economic fact that high taxes (especially taxes like the VAT) raise the final price of the finished product. I didn't see any judgment going along with that. Responses generated were basically why european Style socialism is a good thing - which misses the point as applied to the high cost of festool. I'm not going to engage or respond to the America bashing. The merits of socialism was never in issue here.


It doesn't factor. Cadillacs are built in the USA? They are more expensive than other vehicles, but it has been said that taxes are lower there. I can buy beer that greatly ranges in price, but all have the same ingredients. Manufacturers charge what the market can bear.

Oh, I called my dealer yesterday and ordered my second Festool sander and am impatiently waiting for the courier. Enough said.


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## railaw (Nov 15, 2011)

Wow. What responses. I think Al was pointing out the economic fact that high taxes (especially taxes like the VAT) raise the final price of the finished product. I didn't see any judgment going along with that. Responses generated were basically why european Style socialism is a good thing - which misses the point as applied to the high cost of festool. I'm not going to engage or respond to the America bashing. The merits of socialism was never in issue here.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

jtmorrow said:


> I'm going to add one final thought to this thread, then not bother with it... and maybe not bother with WoodworkingTalk forum at all.


That's telling them. Let them know you can just take your ball and go home any time you want.


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## mattk8715 (Jan 22, 2010)

I have 3 Festool sanders, the TS55 track saw (w/ 2 guide rails that I connect together all the time and use them for straight edging rough sawn lumber in up to 12ft lengths w/out and issue), and I have the dust collector.

Anyone that says Festool isn't worth the money hasn't ever used it. I'm not saying everything, I still can't justify the money for a Festool Domino over my Dewalt or PC biscuit jointer, or spending the money for Festool's miter saw over my Makita (I love my Makita slider). But their sanders and the track saw are worth every penny IMO.

An no, a shop vac hooked up to a sander will in no way come close to a Festool RO150 hooked to a Festool dust collector.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Don't know about Festools but I like to read through EVERY blog, unfortunately as the theme gets into several pages then the politics start coming in. It's a great forum but I would rather pick up wood working ideas etc. than political garbage, I can watch CNN for that.


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## Wendel17 (Apr 20, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> Anybody want to brag about great tools from Canada. Anyone.....
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


At least our beer is better ;-)


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

jschaben said:


> Hi Julie - thanks for the input. I'll have to check around and see if there is anywhere in a reasonable drive that I can touch/feel/smell the thingy. Starting to look like the Makita may be the better option, at least for me. deWalt seems to avoid the whole coupling issue by not doing it, just sell longer sets of rails, which does nothing for storage issues.
> Thanks again:smile:


FWIW, I kind of took the Fessies to task over on FOG regarding the shortcomings of their track saw accessories. The saw is fine but their accessories, which can add a bunch to the final price, just turned me off. 

If you understand Dutch, you have a leg up on me. I don't but still felt this video was helpful when I was in the market for a track saw. You can probably find other head-to-head videos on the net. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYDjoxStUwg

The only drawback I remember about Makita was the saw's power. But if you have a good quality blade, that can make up for some of that.

You may also want to look at Grizzly too.


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## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

Really, guys? There's no need to carry on a political pissing contest. At this woodworking forum, who gives a sh!t? The topic is simply about the fact that you have to pay up if you want some of the best quality tools. And whether or not the actual and perceived value justifies the retail price.

No one here cares about which country is taxed more and which country has the prettiest first lady. And which country wears more argyle socks. And we damn sure don't care about who makes the best beer. Oh wait, we do care about the beer one. But only that one.



jtmorrow said:


> I'm going to add one final thought to this thread, then not bother with it... and maybe not bother with WoodworkingTalk forum at all.


And, you... quit being a crybaby. There's no need to get offended by anything in this thread. And there's certainly no reason to go away mad. There's a reason most forums avoid political discussions. You've just participated in exhibit A.

Now come on! :blink:


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## Brentley (Dec 2, 2012)

railaw said:


> Wow. What responses. I think Al was pointing out the economic fact that high taxes (especially taxes like the VAT) raise the final price of the finished product. I didn't see any judgment going along with that. Responses generated were basically why european Style socialism is a good thing - which misses the point as applied to the high cost of festool. I'm not going to engage or respond to the America bashing. The merits of socialism was never in issue here.


festool is expensive in part due to the higher cost of business in Germany, which is fueled by their economic model. But in using them regularly you come to realize how terrific they are in terms of design and function. My wife will even use my sander indoors now with the dust collector as it is so clean.

As for the EU as a whole, if you look at the economics it is clear where things are headed. the EU has 7% of the world population, 25% of global output and 50% of the worlds welfare spending. Not a sustainable model.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Danno said:


> At least our beer is better ;-)


And worth every penny. Let's all have a drink.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

My responses were clear and in no way did I bash the Fes brand. I asked a question and only one Festool owner cared to respond. Thanks Julie. I know from past posts you are a trusted opinion and always reply with tried and true answers. 

I was kind enough to ask the guy who called me stupid to reread my post to gain a better understanding of my take on the tools. Hopefully he will see the error in doing so and retract the comment. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## mattk8715 (Jan 22, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> I don't really do the type of work that many of these tools are made for. The first time I saw Festool I thought they were just another cheap tool. Mostly due to the green plastic. I realize they are a well made tool and have some very nice features but I don't really work the way they are made. I have a large shop and space isn't a problem. I never work in someone else's home and don't do much carpentry.
> 
> I have a question for any Festool owners. What are the advantages and reasons the sanders have such odd shaped handles.
> 
> Also something to consider when contemplating over the high price is the fact that Festool comes from one of the most economically distressed countries in Europe. Their taxes play a big part in the price.


Just for starters, I have no affiliation w/ Festool, other than I simply own their tools. The first time I saw the TS-55 I thought, who in their right mind would pay near $600 for a skilsaw . Now that I own one, I know :yes:.

As far as their sanders feel goes, it depends which sander you get. IMO, I like the feel of my ETS 150, but I agree the RO 150 and the RO 90 took some getting used to. But I wouldn't say I don't like the way they feel, just had to adjust is all. That said, now that I have the RO 150 I probably wouldn't have bought the ETS 150 (I bought the ETS 150 first). The RO 150 does everything the ETS 150 does, and sooooo much more. Another plus to owning Festool is, I can sell my ETS 150 for close to what I paid for it; used Festool tools bring a fortune too. But I never sell my tools and using my ETS 150 strictly for fine finish work is a plus.

Even w/ a bigger shop, Festool's sanders are phenomenal. If you used the RO 90 or the RO 150, you'd know what I mean. I'll never reach for a belt sander again, and the RO 90 is the only detail sander I've ever used that actually worked the way it should.

As far as why they're so expensive... First off, their 30 day, no hassle/no questions asked return policy is almost unheard of as far as electric power tools are concerned. Festool's customer service is outstanding IMO, not to mention their warranties are great and they stand behind them (unlike some tool manufacturers out there that will give you every excuse in the book for why they don't have to warranty). And most of all, I honestly think they're some of the best engineered tools on the market. Sure some people have mimicked them, but Festool engineered them. Their tools just work well.

I still don't understand why Julie didn't like the way the tracks bind together. I use that a lot and never have an issue. I guess it is a little cumbersome to straight edge, then flip it, then straight edge it again; but it always works very well for me and once they're locked in they're good to go.

I think the real question that will get you to bottom line of whether or not they're worth the money needs to be asked to anyone that owns them, and maybe ask it this way...

Does anyone here feel like they got ripped off buying Festool power tools? Is anyone that owns Festool unhappy w/ the performance? If so, why??

Also, I don't own Festool cuz I care what anyone thinks of my power tools, I own them because they work.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

mattk8715 said:


> Just for starters, I have no affiliation w/ Festool, other than I simply own their tools. The first time I saw the TS-55 I thought, who in their right mind would pay near $600 for a skilsaw . Now that I own one, I know :yes:.
> 
> As far as their sanders feel goes, it depends which sander you get. IMO, I like the feel of my ETS 150, but I agree the RO 150 and the RO 90 took some getting used to. But I wouldn't say I don't like the way they feel, just had to adjust is all. That said, now that I have the RO 150 I probably wouldn't have bought the ETS 150 (I bought the ETS 150 first). The RO 150 does everything the ETS 150 does, and sooooo much more. Another plus to owning Festool is, I can sell my ETS 150 for close to what I paid for it; used Festool tools bring a fortune too. But I never sell my tools and using my ETS 150 strictly for fine finish work is a plus.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the excellent response. It seems the line of sanders gets a thumbs up from everybody.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Take this with as many grains of salt as you wish, but when I was considering buying the Festool TS REQ 55 track saw, I ran across some reviews about their guide rail connectors. They weren't good. So I began looking into the whole connector issue and saw Bosch and Mafell both made what looked like pretty substantial rail connectors. 

Mafell is more expensive than Festool so I went to Bosch. But I found their track saw and accessories were only sold in Europe. I contacted retailers, distributors and Bosch directly about if and when Bosch might start selling their higher end tools in the US. No one knew (Bosch never answered) but one source pointed out the economics of the situation.

High end tools are a very small part of the US tool marketplace. The price alone takes many prospective tool buyers out of that market. Festool made the plunge to sell in the US and it wasn't cheap. If Bosch wanted to do the same, they would have to compete with the already small market Festool and, to a lesser degree, Mafell already have and that isn't a good financial move. At least not at the time I was doing the research. (about 8-9 months ago)

Maybe Bosch will bring their upper end tools to the US and compete with Festool and Mafell, but not before they see they can make a profit doing so.


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## mattk8715 (Jan 22, 2010)

Julie Mor said:


> Take this with as many grains of salt as you wish, but when I was considering buying the Festool TS REQ 55 track saw, I ran across some reviews about their guide rail connectors. They weren't good. So I began looking into the whole connector issue and saw Bosch and Mafell both made what looked like pretty substantial rail connectors.
> 
> Mafell is more expensive than Festool so I went to Bosch. But I found their track saw and accessories were only sold in Europe. I contacted retailers, distributors and Bosch directly about if and when Bosch might start selling their higher end tools in the US. No one knew (Bosch never answered) but one source pointed out the economics of the situation.
> 
> ...


Thanks, and I hope you didn't see that as me attacking you, I was really just curious why you didn't like the way they went together.

I don't remember if you said or not, but did you end up getting the Makita track saw or have you not purchased one yet?

Either way (Makita or Festool), if you even think it might be a handy tool to have, I would get one if I were you. You'll wonder how you ever got along w/out it, my tracksaw is definitely one of my favorite tools.

As far as locking the rails together, I have the 106" and the 55" guides and lock them together quite a bit. Locking them together, IMO, is a non-issue. Storing the 106" when I'm not using it on the other hand... :thumbdown:


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

No problem. No issues with anything you said.

I did buy the Festool TS REQ 55 with a second 55" track and the guide rail kit. Initially, I was disappointed with the chipout I was getting









I went to FOG and was advised to make some adjustments on the splinter guard and that seemed to help. When I went to use the angle unit I found it almost useless as it wouldn't hold the angle and kept slipping out of the rail. After I joined the rails and made a few cuts, I noticed the two rails had fallen out of alignment. Finally I decided that whatever positives there were with the system, the price and the negatives outweighed them and I sent the whole thing back.

If I ever get to that point where I see I'll be cutting lots of sheet goods, I'll reconsider the track saw. But with my shop setup as it is and the amount of sheet goods I actually use, it's more economic for me to have the hardwood store do the major cuts than it is for me to buy and store a track saw and accessories. And it's easier to transport the plywood in my SUV when the hardwood store pre-cuts it.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Take this with as many grains of salt as you wish, but when I was considering buying the Festool TS REQ 55 track saw, I ran across some reviews about their guide rail connectors. They weren't good. So I began looking into the whole connector issue and saw Bosch and Mafell both made what looked like pretty substantial rail connectors.
> 
> Mafell is more expensive than Festool so I went to Bosch. But I found their track saw and accessories were only sold in Europe. I contacted retailers, distributors and Bosch directly about if and when Bosch might start selling their higher end tools in the US. No one knew (Bosch never answered) but one source pointed out the economics of the situation.
> 
> ...


If you're going to use "economics" as an argument, why not expand, visualize the big picture?
If Corporations and their lackeys in Congress hadn't been allowed to outsource our jobs, things would be a lot different for the average Joe.
People employed making quality tools in the US would still have a job and money to spread around to other Americans like woodworkers who could make the toolmaker's their cabinets, etc., ad infinitum.
There would be no market for inferior Wall Mart junk, everyone would still have a job they could take pride in, and money to pay another proud professional with quality long-lasting tools.

The whole middle class has disappeared


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bzguy said:


> If you're going to use "economics" as an argument, why not expand, visualize the big picture?
> If Corporations and their lackeys in Congress hadn't been allowed to outsource our jobs, things would be a lot different for the average Joe.
> People employed making quality tools in the US would still have a job and money to spread around to other Americans like woodworkers who could make the toolmaker's their cabinets, etc., ad infinitum.
> There would be no market for inferior Wall Mart junk, everyone would still have a job they could take pride in, and money to pay another proud professional with quality long-lasting tools.
> ...


BZ
What would possibly make you think corporations and their lackeys in congress have anything to do with outsourcing jobs. We here in the USA have the freedom to do our business as we see fit. Congress has nothing to do with "allowing" outsourcing. Gee you want to make another law with unforeseen consequences. Having the highest corporate tax rate in the world does though.

Julie was talking about demand for high end tools. There isn't a lot of buyers looking for high-end tools that would warrant manufacturing them.The demand for them has very little or nothing to do with outsourcing jobs.

Also, I bet you would be hard pressed to find anyone buying tools at Walmart.

BTW 70% of the people in the US that lose their job to outsourcing actually get a better higher paying job. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> BZ
> What would possibly make you think corporations and their lackeys in congress have anything to do with outsourcing jobs. We here in the USA have the freedom to do our business as we see fit. Congress has nothing to do with "allowing" outsourcing. Gee you want to make another law with unforeseen consequences. Having the highest corporate tax rate in the world does though.
> 
> Julie was talking about demand for high end tools. There isn't a lot of buyers looking for high-end tools that would warrant manufacturing them.The demand for them has very little or nothing to do with outsourcing jobs.
> ...


 Who then if not Big Corps and Congress traitors created NAFTA Al?
Where do you think stamped metal tools come from, someone's US basement?
Some reading for you, a few out of 1.6 million hits..........
About 1,640,000 results (0.71 seconds) 





*Search Results*



*The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in Perspective ...*

economyincrisis.org/*nafta*‎
Few are aware that _NAFTA_ (_North American Free Trade Agreement_) has *...* us to _outsource_ most of our production, and killed most of our manufacturing jobs. *...* In _other_ words, companies in this state could produce at a fraction of the cost of *...*


*NAFTA Made Outsourcing Easy - AFL-CIO*

www.aflcio.org › Issues › Trade › NAFTA‎
Since _NAFTA_, however, that has not been the case. Instead, _NAFTA_ (and the _NAFTA_-style _trade agreements_ that have followed) provided large corporations with *...*


*What Is NAFTA - A Summary of the NAFTA Agreement and Its ...*

useconomy.about.com › News & Issues › US Economy › Trade‎
_NAFTA_ stands for the _North American Free Trade Agreement_. *...* Find out the many _other_ reasons, and how jobs _outsourcing_ affects the U.S. economy overall.


*North American Free Trade Agreement - The New York Times*

topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/...*free*_*trade*_*agreement*/index.html‎
Fifteen years after the _North American Free Trade Agreement_ took effect, the pact, *...* trade and job creation; _others_ say it has led to _outsourcing_ and lower wages.


*Why Nafta Outsourced Jobs - Wikiadwys*

wiki.adwys.es/index.php?title=Why_*Nafta*_*Outsourced*_Jobs‎
3 Reading and Questions: _NAFTA_, _outsourcing_ and the United States to read the work *...* The _North American Free Trade Agreement_ (_NAFTA_ with regard to ... hiring *...* Agreement is that these problems can be solved .. .. acceleration of _others_.


*North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free ...*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_*Free*_*Trade*_*Agreement*‎
_North American Free Trade Agreement_. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search. "_NAFTA_" redirects here. For _other_ uses, see _Nafta_ *...*


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## J.C. (Jan 20, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> BTW 70% of the people in the US that lose their job to outsourcing actually get a better higher paying job.


Is that based on current information or is that something from 20-30 years ago? Have a source? Maybe at one point that could have been true but I can't imagine that is true today. However, I have been wrong in the past.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Meanwhile back at the WOOD WORKING forum, are Festools good value or not?


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

I'll say it again, yes they are, you get what you pay for, normally.
Although I've seen some of the stuff coming out of NAFTA created Chinese factories burn up in a day.
They don't actually make tools, they make facsimiles of tools.
Some of them look identical to the old US made items, but when taken apart they have a half-sized motor made from softer steels and plastics.
I call them decoys, Home Depot is stocked floor to ceiling with them.
So in this case, sometimes you get less.
Clever these Chinese, especially when in cahoots with profit maximizing corporate bean-counters who write themselves big bonus checks for selling lemons.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

tonycan said:


> Meanwhile back at the WOOD WORKING forum, are Festools good value or not?


No but they are great tools. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Remember the crappy asian cars a couple decades ago......the same thing is happening in tools and other things built in asia. Are their junk tools coming out of china....sure.....they sell alot of them at places like harbor freight.....Are their top notch tools coming out of china.....absolutly, they're sold under brands like Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, and Steel City. Hide behind NAFTA or the claims of patriotic protest.....but you'll become a dinosaur eventually.....

For the record......I like american built tools.......but to claim that all tools coming out of China are junk is sticking your head in the sand....


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

bzguy said:


> If Corporations and their lackeys in Congress hadn't been allowed to outsource our jobs, things would be a lot different for the average Joe.
> People employed making quality tools in the US would still have a job and money to spread around to other Americans like woodworkers who could make the toolmaker's their cabind infinitum.
> There would be no market for inferior Wall Mart junk, everyone would still have a job they could take pride in, and money to pay another proud professional with quality long-lasting tools.
> 
> The whole middle class has disappeared



So If we didn't buy things from China.......where would they get the money to buy stuff back from us? 

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-exports-china-have-grown-294-over-past-decade-1338693


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Remember the crappy asian cars a couple decades ago......the same thing is happening in tools and other things built in asia. Are their junk tools coming out of china....sure.....they sell alot of them at places like harbor freight.....Are their top notch tools coming out of china.....absolutly, they're sold under brands like Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, and Steel City. Hide behind NAFTA or the claims of patriotic protest.....but you'll become a dinosaur eventually.....
> 
> For the record......I like american built tools.......but to claim that all tools coming out of China are junk is sticking your head in the sand....


Good point. And true. I looked the other day at my 3 main tools. Delta Unisaw made in USA. It's over 25 years old. Delta 13" planer. Made in Brazil 25 years old. I think that was the first jump Delta made when it got farmed out. Powermatic 8" jointer made in USA. I only have one box store tool. 12"DeWalt slider. Gee do you think the slider will fall apart? 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

We owe them billions, they can get anything they want on credit, you guys have drank the 1%-er Congressional Kool-Aid, no hope for you.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bzguy said:


> We owe them billions, they can get anything they want on credit, you guys have drank the 1%-er Congressional Kool-Aid, no hope for you.


I have drank no such thing. I just don't want to banter with you here on this thread. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## pmaru77 (Apr 14, 2009)

I bought a Festool plunge saw (circular) about 8 years ago with the 55" rail. I replaced the blade once or twice with a non-festool replacement and I'm cutting, cutting , cutting into oblivion. The best money I've spent on wood tools. Of course they were under 500 bucks then. But cutting up a 4x8 sheet of ply is actually fun. I don't think Makita had a product like that at the time of purchase, but I probably would have bought the Makita for less coin if it were.
It is a sweet piece of equipment. The worst investment I made was a compound mitre saw from Makita. It was 400+ and I really think it is over kill for most all the cutting I do with it.


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## J.C. (Jan 20, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> So If we didn't buy things from China.......where would they get the money to buy stuff back from us?
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/us-exports-china-have-grown-294-over-past-decade-1338693


:blink: U.S. Trade with China China drives uptick in U.S. trade deficit Growing U.S. trade deficit with china costs 2.7 million jobs


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

A question for Al B Thayer...

How many Festool tools or products do you own? Or how many have you tried and returned, and for how long did you try them?




Al B Thayer said:


> No but they are great tools.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

jtmorrow said:


> A question for Al B Thayer... How many Festool tools or products do you own? Or how many have you tried and returned, and for how long did you try them?


While I own zero...I've tried four. I agree with Al, they are good tools, but not a good value. Would I mind owning some, not at all...but I can't justify the cost difference. Much like I can't justify the cost of a Mercedes....good car, poor value.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

And I should clarify...not a good value for the hobbyist in my opinion. In a shop where they're getting used 60 hours a week I may feel different.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jtmorrow said:


> A question for Al B Thayer...
> 
> How many Festool tools or products do you own? Or how many have you tried and returned, and for how long did you try them?


The question was answered as it pertains to value. I own a full size panel saw and a Unisaw with a 50" fence. Are they a good value?

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> The question was answered as it pertains to value. I own a full size panel saw and a Unisaw with a 50" fence. Are they a good value?
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


To all of the members on this board with a small chunk of basement or garage work space, no, a full size panel saw and Unisaw aren't good value.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jtmorrow said:


> To all of the members on this board with a small chunk of basement or garage work space, no, a full size panel saw and Unisaw aren't good value.


I agree. But why must you be such a mook?

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

tonycan said:


> Meanwhile back at the WOOD WORKING forum, are Festools good value or not?


Everyone has their opinion. Go to FOG and they jokingly refer to having drunk the green Kool-Aid. They all seem to love their Festools. But that's why they congregate there.

In a head-to-head contest, Festools will perform as good or better than most of the power tools commonly found in our workshops. But I think you'd find in the long run, Festools will come out on top. Long time owners of the tools say they last forever.

As to the value of Festools, it all depends on what you are looking for and what's important to you. I absolutely fell in love with the first Festools I purchased, the RO125 and CT26. But primarily for one reason - dust collection. I was literally getting sick breathing in dust, even though I wore a respirator and did my best to collect dust with either my shop DC or vacuum. 

The two tools above cost me around $900. Was that a good value? Depends on how I value my health and how acceptable it is for me to breathe in dust from mahogany, African woods, walnut, etc. To me that price was a great value, considering I couldn't get that dust collection efficiency from any other tool manufacturer.

When I bought the TS REQ 55 and accessories, I didn't think that was such a great value - for me, personally. But if my work consisted of working in homes and small businesses doing cabinet installations or fine woodworking projects that required cutting sheet goods with great precision, that system would have been a good value. And when you couple it with a CT vac, it's even better because it would save me a lot of cleanup time at the end of each day. The system would pay for itself.

To me, each tool has to be looked at individually. You really can't make a blanket response to the value of Festools and expect it to be a one-size-fits-all response. You have to analyze why you want the tool and if what the tool gives you over cheaper tools can be justified with the higher price.

I love their sanders when coupled with their CT vac. I'd love owning all of them. If I had another big sanding project coming up, I'd buy the ETS 150/5 (I already own the 150/3) because they are such a pleasure to work with. And that comes from someone who used to dread big sanding projects. Many Festool owners say it only hurts once but you'll enjoy it forever. I get that.


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## jtmorrow (Oct 21, 2011)

If the question is, "Are they great value?" then only someone who has owned some or at least tried them for a period of time can offer a valid opinion.

If I was spewing about the Sawstop table saw not being good value (without owning one), then I should keep my mouth shut. Some, or many, people might say $3,000-5,000 is too much for a regular table saw... but if you ask all those people who have had an accident, I'm sure they'll tell you that saw would have been worth 10x the amount, to them.

edit.
I respect your opinion, Julie Mor, obviously you have tried a variety of them and decided which ones you like and which you don't.

Now, if I can decide whether or not to buy a Laguna bandsaw, I'll be all set.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

jtmorrow said:


> If the question is, "Are they great value?" then only someone who has owned some or at least tried them for a period of time can offer a valid opinion.
> 
> If I was spewing about the Sawstop table saw not being good value (without owning one), then I should keep my mouth shut. Some, or many, people might say $3,000-5,000 is too much for a regular table saw... but if you ask all those people who have had an accident, I'm sure they'll tell you that saw would have been worth 10x the amount, to them.
> 
> ...


jtmorrow
You came into this thread late and for some odd reason have mounted a personal attack on me. Not sure why. I haven't had an ill word to say about Festool. Maybe you would gain a better understanding for my posts by rereading them. I have handled and tried Festool sanders and saws and just don't do the type of work they are designed for. I don't work in other peoples homes and don't use a sander as much as some, due to careful surface planing, hand planes and cabinet scrapers. 

I thought I might buy one of their sanders but having to buy all the paper from Festool only, sent up the red flag. Ive found many sandpapers that I really like but they dont fit Festool. Remember Betamax. Clearly they were a superior product too. I already have a high powered Unisaw and a panel saw so no mater how much I like the track saw. There's no value in buying and owning one. And there again. Would I have to use their blades? I have a biscuit jointer that I use on low dollar projects with hidden joints. I can buy biscuits anywhere, cheap. So the Domino is out. Still a great tool if you like that kind of thing. 

A friend of mine built a new house and his cabinet installer showed up with a trailer loaded with Festools. I told him the last thing he needed to worry about was his cabinet installer. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> I thought I might buy one of their sanders but having to buy all the paper from Festool only, sent up the red flag.


Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.

I saw a review on a Bosch half sheet sander in FWW. It listed for $380, in Festool ranges. But it comes with a punch so you can use any sandpaper you want.

But I will say Festool's granat paper has really impressed me so far. It seems to last forever. Of course, that is if you don't tear it sanding into an edge.


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## mattk8715 (Jan 22, 2010)

Julie Mor said:


> Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.
> 
> I saw a review on a Bosch half sheet sander in FWW. It listed for $380, in Festool ranges. But it comes with a punch so you can use any sandpaper you want.
> 
> But I will say Festool's granat paper has really impressed me so far. It seems to last forever. Of course, that is if you don't tear it sanding into an edge.


The sandpaper was what held me off from purchasing Festool sanders in the beginning as well. But, once I finally decided to go that route, I'm glad I did. Its actually not anymore expensive than the Norton I used to use and love.

I've heard people say Festool sandpaper is the best there is, but I don't agree. Don't get me wrong, their sanders w/ their sandpaper are the best IMO, but I think I liked Norton sandpaper (by itself) better. I think it lasted a little longer, but maybe that's all in my head. It could just be the sanders sand so much better that they burn up sandpaper faster. 

I also hear what you're saying about sanding projects being dreadful. I used to hate sanding (I work a lot w/ MDF, one of the worst things there is to sand); filling the shop full of dust, wearing a respirator and still coughing up brown nastiness the next day, plus the time it took to sand something. W/ the Festool system its _almost_ fun :icon_smile:.

I still haven't purchased a Festool router. I have 3 routers right now (not including my router table). I almost purchased a Festool OF 1010 router for smaller jobs, but then decided to go w/ a Dewalt DWP 611 instead (my big plunge router is a Dewalt DW621 and I LOVE it!!!). The only thing I could see being better than my Dewalts is the ability to put it in the tracks for doing dados, but I think Dewalt offers an adapter to use the 611 in the Festool track anyhow.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.
> 
> I saw a review on a Bosch half sheet sander in FWW. It listed for $380, in Festool ranges. But it comes with a punch so you can use any sandpaper you want.
> 
> But I will say Festool's granat paper has really impressed me so far. It seems to last forever. Of course, that is if you don't tear it sanding into an edge.


Thanks for your reply and honest opinion. I'm sure Fes wouldn't dream of putting out a crappy sandpaper. I'm going to look into a sander system soon. I'm currently hooked on Shopsmith paper found at Lowes. I picked it up once in a pinch and really like it. Hard to believe I would be using anything from them. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

I was about to pull the trigger on a TS55 REQ (yeah, takes me awhile to spring for that much) and all the suppliers I had used to compare prices on the thing were out of stock. 
Found this
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/manufacturers/new-festool-saw-may-be-recalled.aspx
If anyone has one maybe should check into it.:smile:


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Interesting that Festool went to the CPSC and told them of the problem but that it could take months for a recall to happen, if it even does, because the CPSC has to do a study first. In the meantime, accidents could happen. 

It's good Festool is taking a proactive position but I wonder if they are personally contacting Festool owners or just relying on FOG to get the word out? Probably both. But if you didn't register your tool, how could they contact you personally?

FWIW, in the short time I owned this saw, I never had a problem with the plunge sticking in the down position.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Kind of testimony to the integrity of this company that they'd consider a recall at all.
Only when there is the threat of a multi-million dollar class action suit do American corps, ( car-makers for example) even bother.
Seen any Made in China stuff recalled ever?


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## railaw (Nov 15, 2011)

bzguy said:


> Kind of testimony to the integrity of this company that they'd consider a recall at all. Only when there is the threat of a multi-million dollar class action suit do American corps, ( car-makers for example) even bother. Seen any Made in China stuff recalled ever?


All the time. Would you get off it already?


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## Waterboy12 (Nov 4, 2012)

This thread has been a trip to fallow. Y'all keep up the good work. But slow down....I'm running out of popcorn.


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

bzguy said:


> Seen any Made in China stuff recalled ever?


Not more than a couple of times a month. Even seen whole houses recalled. Remember the drywall flap a few years back?:thumbdown:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Or the current round of dehumidifier recalls...all made in China.


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## gideon (May 26, 2010)

I had a few jobs calling for dovetailed drawers. So I spent 300 something on a really nice to new condition leigh d4 24" dovetail jig. 

Turns out that my clients prefer my half dovetail drawer joins and the d4 hasnt been used in months. 

I could have bout something else with at money. Seriously. Nice jig but doesn't mean much sitting on a shelf never used.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

gideon said:


> I had a few jobs calling for dovetailed drawers. So I spent 300 something on a really nice to new condition leigh d4 24" dovetail jig.
> 
> Turns out that my clients prefer my half dovetail drawer joins and the d4 hasnt been used in months.
> 
> I could have bout something else with at money. Seriously. Nice jig but doesn't mean much sitting on a shelf never used.


The D4 does half-blind dovetails too. Was it just that your clients preferred the trademark of handmade dovetails?

BTW, mine sits collecting dust most of the time too but primarily because it's such a pain to set up.


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## gideon (May 26, 2010)

Julie Mor said:


> The D4 does half-blind dovetails too. Was it just that your clients preferred the trademark of handmade dovetails?
> 
> BTW, mine sits collecting dust most of the time too but primarily because it's such a pain to set up.


Mine is set up and ready to go but I make a different type of dovetail which is like a vertical half dovetail rabbet.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

railaw said:


> All the time. Would you get off it already?


Some more reading for you to ignore.......
*Will There Be A Recall For Chinese Tools In The Future? - Page 5*

bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/...*Recall*...*Chinese*-*Tools*.../page5‎

BTW your Gov is about to take another paid vacation, that's why I have dual nationality, Good luck!
*Stock futures plunge as Wall Street braces for government shutdown*


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## railaw (Nov 15, 2011)

bzguy said:


> Some more reading for you to ignore....... Will There Be A Recall For Chinese Tools In The Future? - Page 5 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/...Recall...Chinese-Tools.../page5‎ BTW your Gov is about to take another paid vacation, that's why I have dual nationality, Good luck! Stock futures plunge as Wall Street braces for government shutdown


I'll just note before un subscribing that your link contains a list of Chinese made tools that have been recalled within the last several years.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

railaw said:


> I'll just note before un subscribing that your link contains a list of Chinese made tools that have been recalled within the last several years.


Look at the dates...........
I don't have time to do this for you but here's just one.
Black and Deckers last recall for instance was 2003.
They didn't start manufacturing in China until 2007.
This is a forum, opinions will vary.
"Corporations are American people?" be patriotic and buy all the Chinese-made stuff you want.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I see recalls from dewalt ( black and decker) on their website for 2005, 06, 07, 08 and 2009......I think your data is old.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Maybe I should put B and D on my friends don't let friends list. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

One of two box store tools I have is a D walt veritable speed low profile ROS. It's exactly like the Porter Cable version only yellow. Its stubby and easy to use. I bought it in a pinch when my PC blew a spring set. I like it and it seemed to sand flat till I sanded a contoured bar stool seat. Now I need to replace the vel pad. I'm going to replace it with a fancy sanding system but I wont be Fe$tol.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## joesdad (Nov 1, 2007)

Holy Crap!...I started this thread when my son was three years old. He just started second grade this year. I thought I'd stop by (been a long time) and see what's changed. I see someone dug up this Festool post and I also see not much has changed as to people's opinions. I also see some people still can't not derail a topic with politics which is the reason I backed off this site a few years ago or so. 

I'm sure there are a lot of great new members here who I look forward to reading their posts and I also see at least one of the old pillars of this site still exists...How's the Shepards Cabinetman?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

joesdad said:


> Holy Crap!...I started this thread when my son was three years old. He just started second grade this year. I thought I'd stop by (been a long time) and see what's changed. I see someone dug up this Festool post and I also see not much has changed as to people's opinions. I also see some people still can't not derail a topic with politics which is the reason I backed off this site a few years ago or so.
> 
> I'm sure there are a lot of great new members here who I look forward to reading their posts and I also see at least one of the old pillars of this site still exists...How's the Shepards Cabinetman?


I got on board when it got a new life. Just the mention of Fe$tool and a saw that I have stopped talking about. And you get a very lively debate. The biscuit jointer is a close second.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Hawkeye1434 (Dec 11, 2013)

Boardman said:


> If I may be so impertinent, I think Festool is playing on folks desire to impress other people with the cost of their tools. It's kind of an American tradition - maybe worldwide - to value ones self with the cost of their possesions. Yeah, I've fooled around with their stuff at demos. Nice tools, but I figure 25-30% of the cost consists of bragging rights. Me...I'd rather put the cash into killer hunks of wood to work with.


. 


Sorry but no I thought the same thing until I couldn't find a sander or jigsaw that was worth a crap the festool fit the bill best money I have ever spent


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

The first Festool I bought was a 5" Rotex with their mid-sized dust collector. For maybe 15-20 years, the only power hand sander I had was a 5" Bosch ROS. At the time of the Festool purchase, the Rotex wasn't the best buying decision I could have made but I was very impressed by the dust collector and how, when used in conjunction with the Rotex, it collected dust far more effectively (and quietly) than the Bosch did hooked up to a shop vac. 

I had been developing a hyper-sensitivity to wood dust over the years and that was making woodworking a health issue. So I bought their 5" ROS. It worked too well and the Bosch became a forgotten tool. I've since purchased three more of their sanders and I love them all. 

We've all had screwdrivers that fit loosely in the screw slot and we've all stripped out screw heads with them. :furious: But when you get a tip that fits snugly and holds as you're trying to remove or tighten a difficult screw, that cheap screwdriver makes you appreciate the quality screwdriver all the more. And the fact the quality screwdriver costs a bit more is quickly forgotten. That's been my experience with Festool.


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## GeneT (Feb 24, 2014)

They are fantastic tools-innovative design and incredible quality control. That being said they are not for everyone- If you are a hobby woodworker then they're probably not worth it, but if you're a contractor it they can be a time saver. Do you need a Mercedes or will a Toyota suffice? Just my 2 cents.
Gene


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