# Mahogany isn't taking dark stain?



## Balfloor (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm seeking some advice to help get mahogany to take a black stain.

The picture below is two coats of Zar oil based "black onyx." I applied it in 40° weather, rubbing it on with T-shirt material, coats about 3 hours apart. Prep was sanding with 220 grit, and dust removal with a tack cloth, light sanding in between coats.

I'd like to get the wood to take more color -- less brown showing through. 

Searching around this forum, I've read that the cold temperature may be hurting me. I've also seen a recommendation that the oil should be left to sit for 15 minutes before wiping away the excess (I wiped away my excess almost immediately).

I'm also wondering if I'd get deeper penetration or absorption using an alcohol or water based stain?

Photo is of (left to right):
- (1) the new door (genuine mahogany, will be left unstained, just sealed), 
- (2) trim strip I'm attempting to stain black (darker mahogany than door, don't know species), 
- (3) stained test strip (same wood as trim strip, immediately after application of 2nd coat or stain), 
- (4) and the existing brown-stained door frame that I'll be restoring down the road (don't know what wood this is)


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Your pictures are not coming through on my bad internet so I'm going on your description. 

The temperature shouldn't be a issue with an oil stain. You can stain over the oil based stain you are using an alcohol based dye stain with no problem. Another option is you can use a oil based black enamel thinning as needed to adjust the color and wipe off the excess to use for a stain.


----------



## Balfloor (Jan 17, 2013)

Steve, I watched a video "The Wood Whisperer" posted on YouTube where he applied both types of stains to a chair (water followed a day later by oil). In your opinion, would it be best to start with oil, or end with oil, for best penetration?

If I used the thinned enamel, do you envision that going on as a surface coat over the stained finish?

Thanks.


----------



## JohnnyTooBad (Dec 9, 2012)

Balfloor,

Two things. Yes, let the stain sit longer. It makes a big difference. Make sure you apply it pretty evenly, but I have used pretty thick applications and let it sit for 15-30 minutes. I tend to put it on with a foam brush when I need it thick. Then wipe off with rags. You can do multiple coats to get it darker, so adding more to what you have already done, should get it darker.

If that doesn't get it dark enough, try roughing up the wood a bit with rougher sandpaper (150 or 180 grit). The smoother you sand wood, the less stain it will absorb.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Balfloor said:


> Steve, I watched a video "The Wood Whisperer" posted on YouTube where he applied both types of stains to a chair (water followed a day later by oil). In your opinion, would it be best to start with oil, or end with oil, for best penetration?
> 
> If I used the thinned enamel, do you envision that going on as a surface coat over the stained finish?
> 
> Thanks.


Well I'm kind of old school and believe oil based stains are more durable. But then it's my understanding that most furniture manufactures stain the wood first with a dye stain to get the majority of the color and then use a oil base stain to give it some warmth. I for one don't care for water based dyes though and don't use them. When using a dye stain I prefer alcohol based dyes and only use them if I need to supplement the color. A lot of times I have to match an existing finish that someone else has done and I mix a stain I think will work. Sometimes when you get a large area stained the color appears a little light or not red enough and I will shade over the stain with a dye to correct the color. 

An oil based enamel is so similar to an oil based stain you can use it instead of the oil based stain. The paint will have more black pigment in it than the stain does. Your picture finally came through and the stain is just weak with pigment. If you are uneasy using black paint you may be able to add a black universal tinting color to the Zar stain. I don't have experience with Zar stains so I can't be sure. The only stain I know of you can't add tinting color to is Minwax stains. They are a oil based aniline dye and can only add dye to them to alter the color.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Oil base stain has varnish resins that will seal the grain somewhat. After your first application it's not too likely you'll get it much darker. If you initially sanded no smoother than 180x, you can use an aniline dye, alcohol based (methanol). It doesn't seal the grain and you can darken it. Then topcoat with a film finish.

At this point with stain already down, you might have to use a gel stain to get the color you want.













 







.


----------



## Balfloor (Jan 17, 2013)

Good to know! 

So to that point, no, it's still bare wood -- I haven't applied anything yet (just working on the test strip so far). If oil based effectively seals out additional applications of pigment, it sounds as though I might want to go with a methanol aniline with my first treatment, followed by the oil-based with a longer "set" time?

150 grit before the alcohol, followed by 220 before the oil?

But first I'll do another test of the oil-based, with rougher finish sanded finish and longer set times.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Balfloor said:


> Good to know!
> 
> So to that point, no, it's still bare wood -- I haven't applied anything yet (just working on the test strip so far). If oil based effectively seals out additional applications of pigment, it sounds as though I might want to go with a methanol aniline with my first treatment, followed by the oil-based with a longer "set" time?
> 
> ...


You may not need the oil based stain on top of the aniline dye. You may achieve what you want without it. On your test strips, after the dye (or stain...if you use stain) add your topcoat, because that will change what the finish will look like.









 







.


----------



## Balfloor (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks again for everyone's input.

I stained a second test strip, allowing the oils 15-20 minutes to work their way into the grain before wiping. This resulted in a notably darker color, but still too much undertone showing through.

So today I'm playing with pre-mixed Liberon water based dye (no dry powder aniline dyes at my local hardwood place). I'll post the results in a few days.


----------

