# Hand plane problems...



## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

First of all, this is my first post. I've enjoyed reading people's posts in the past and I have finally taken the plunge into woodworking. I successfully completed a shooting board jig--not a huge deal, I know, but I've never been one to build things despite being an engineering major in college. So it's a big deal for me, haha. Anyway...

I am new to woodworking and have just started building a small collection of power and hand tools. Among them are two hand planes. They are both Stanleys from the local Lowes (I live in a fairly remote area of Texas and have few retail options), and I was hoping for some guidance. I have done a fair amount of research and practice, but the bench plane is giving me issues as I try to face a board.

The bench plane is the one seen here: Amazon.com: Stanley 12-404 No. 4 Adjustable Bench Plane with 2-Inch Cutter: Home Improvement. 

The Stanley block plane worked very well for me so I decided to go ahead and try this one. I recently bought some rough-sawn maple and walnut for making an end-grain cutting board. I was experiencing all sorts of tearout at first, then I discovered the grain changes directions on the board in a couple of places, which helped reduce tearout. I also resharpened the blade using my tri-hone system (seemed to be very sharp when I was done).

For the life of me, I can’t get good cuts. It either glides across the board without making a cut or I lower the blade a bit and it won’t budge and chips out a bit of wood if I insist on pushing it. I have had success only when skewing the blade so one side (the right works the best) sits a hair lower. I can then take fairly thin shavings off, but I can see that it’s only a ¼ inch part of the blade making contact near the edge. The wood shavings pile up quickly and cram into that little crevice. Also, it’s leaving little white gouge marks as it goes—nothing terrible that won’t sand away, but I have been able to make wood (albeit softwood) as smooth as glass with my block plane (as I discover the grain direction this is getting to be less of a problem). The board is well-clamped and not moving—I have tried watching technique videos as I am self-taught and have very little resources besides several books and the internet to instruct me.

I have made the blade razor sharp, but it must not be sitting square/level if the edges will cut but the middle won’t. I tried grinding down the ends a little to taper them off and make the center protrude more, but this doesn’t seem to help. In the meantime, I have a very cupped board that needs fixing. I am budget-limited, having spent a considerable amount on a circular saw, some lumber, and other expenses. Am I doing something terribly wrong? Would a Hock blade be the solution—or are there deeper issues? 

P.S. I have checked the plane for the basic flaws—it sits level, etc. I don't see anything glaringly wrong with the tool itself.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

If only part of the blade is cutting it is probably not exiting the mouth square, even if it is square. Try adjusting it with the lateral adjuster lever. You should be able to tell with your finger tips if the blade is even.


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

Gil,

Thanks. I went out and re-examined it. I tried to feel with my hand (carefully) how square the blade was exiting the mouth. It seemed fine, but still gave me those poor cuts. I tried to very carefully readjust the lever. Eventually I managed to get it so the middle was doing more of the cutting but it still is only a small shaving from no more than a 1/4 inch, no matter where it comes from on the blade. Any ideas? I am beginning to think the blade is simply not straight.

Appreciate the help thus far!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I hate the latest Stanley naming convention. They wrote the book, and then threw it away. Sad. :thumbdown:

I think you may be having the same teething troubles as I had with a recent restore of a Sargent equivalent to an old Stanley No 3.

Post #25.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/latest-rust-bucket-planes-46494/index2/

When I first started to use hand planes, I thought the blade did all the work. I thought the cap iron was only to prevent the blade from flexing.

The cap iron does work to stop the blade from flexing, but it is incredibly important in how the shavings cut. Not intuitive.

Over time I read more, including an old book "Planecraft" by the folks at the old Record company G.W. Hampton and E.Clifford. Sub title "Hand planing by modern methods".

I bought mine from Woodcraft. I read that it is out of print. It was reprinted by Woodcraft.

The authors used to work for the old Record company. First published in 1934.

This is a well written book. Lots of useful information.

The section on plane adjustment has the following recommendations for the distance of the cap iron from the edge of the blade.

_For rough work, cap iron 1/32in to 1/16in from edge of blade.

For finishing work, cap iron 1/64in from edge of blade.

For hard woods with irregular grain - as close as you can get it to the cutting edge._

In another site's Hand Tools forum there was a thread on some recent research in Japan where they measured the distance of the cap iron from the edge and also the angle of the cap iron. The research showed both of these details can affect the efficiency of the cut.

Another variable is the frog position. This is used to alter the position of the blade in the throat. You can only go back until the blade touches. Normally you go forward to adjust the blade position to determine the thickness of the shaving.

I normally set the blade forward to minimize the shaving thickness. 

I have only done a few restorations, but if the cap iron does not seat well with the blade, shavings will accumulate and cause the blade to skip.

So flatten the back of the blade and sharpen the end of the cap iron, even if they look good. This is to eliminate this as a variable.

Next step it to tweak the distance of the edge of the cap iron from the edge of the blade.

Based on the Record book and the Japanese research I thought closest to the edge was best.

The Sargent showed me it is not so simple.

For my Sargent, setting the cap iron about 1/32nd from the edge of the blade worked. Any closer and the plane skipped.

So do not give up. There are many variables to test or eliminate.

I would test first on a piece of softwood. Easier to plane and if you cannot get e.g. pine to cut, then forget trying on oak.


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

Dave,

I appreciate the response. Very thought-out and helpful. However, my cheap plane (it was 20 dollars--like I said, the block plane I got for about that price was working very well, so I figured this one might be similar) does not have those options. There is no frog, and the distance the blade has to rest at is set. The cap screw has only one location it can sit at, so I can't really move that any closer (or farther) from the blade.

I can, however, reflatten the back of the blade and the cap iron--the latter is something I haven't even thought about. Also, I'll try to do a better job of making sure it sits even on the blade. As it is, the cap is held in place with the screw and a little knob that you loosen to move the lateral adjustment knobs. This design is poor because turning either the screw or the knob causes the cap to shift on the iron. Thus, it rarely sits square with the actual iron. And this may be a large part of my problem.

I'm thinking that I might invest in a slightly better plane--perhaps refurbish an old Stanley or spring for a nicer low-angle jack plane. Thanks for your help--any further guidance you have is appreciated. And those were some nice pics in the link you provided!

Cheers,
Ben


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ben, just a thought - you said the plane sits level, but did you flatten the sole or just notice that it sits level without rocking? A quick way to check if the sole is flat and doesn't have some high or low spots is to take a marker and draw lines across the sole from side to side and then make a few passes over some sandpaper. You should be able to tell if the marker lines are being sanded evenly or not. If they are even, good - you've eliminated one potential source of error, if not - keep sanding


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## tim407 (Nov 24, 2012)

If shavings are clogging the throat of our plane. (For the life of me I can't remember the technical term) you can use a fill open the throat up a little in front of the blade. You'll run into this same problem even with old stanely bailey planes when u buy a new blade for it as high quality new blades are usually much thicker. 

Anyway. I locked my plane in my vise. Marked what I was taking off the plane with a marker and took off what I needed. 

It's not hard and really if you're going at a rough sawn board u want a plane with a cambered iron and a wider mouth so u can take off big shavings. It's when I move to tri a board and finish you want thin shavings and a tight mouth on your plane.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I read through your problems and I have to tell you to quit while you are ahead. You are not in a stage of your plane career to tackle this one.

It's a fundamentally bad plane design. That plane has no chip breaker, the iron is very poor quality, no lateral / depth adjustment other than the double wheels of death.

You may have the iron in upside down (the flat side goes up - maybe different than your block plane depending on which block you bought).

The other thing is sharpness. I'm doubtful the iron is sharp enough. When it comes to woodworking sharp means extremely sharp... As in split hairs sharp. 

But any which way slice it, it's not a plane worth putting any energy into. Even Buck Brothers No 14 sold by HD is far superior to that Stanley paper weight. 

I suggest you look at other options such as a vintage plane to restore. Oddly the most poorly cared for vintage plane will be less work that the one you are currently messing with. That said, don't buy anything too far gone until you get a bit more experience under your belt.

some day I'd like to sit across the table from a Stanley VP and have him 'show' me how terrific their new planes are.


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

All,

Appreciate the help. 

Tim #1: I did use the marker/sanding trick and found it was almost perfectly flat. I kept sanding for a few minutes until it was level. As far as the Stanley's go, I was impressed given how poor I heard they were that the block was perfectly flat and this one was very close.

Tim #2: thanks for the wisdom. I'm getting a little better every day at this and am grateful for any advice. Today I'm going to flatten the cap iron so it sits flush against the iron. I'm hoping that helps a little. The file advice may be necessary soon.

firemedic: I hear ya. Looking back it's a little disappointing that this plane doesn't allow for those adjustments. I'm one of those impulse guys who just wants to start building my cutting board/wine rack/bookshelf/bar/house/etc. NOW, and this was all Lowes had. There's a Home Depot in Corpus I might trek out to, but honestly, I'm loath to spend any more money on a cruddy plane. In the meantime I'll probably make do with this one and look for one to restore. I just hate not being able to do anything while I drive literally over an hour to one or two flea markets/scour ebay and wait for shipping, etc. I do have the bevel down, though, and while my sharpening skills are not perfect yet, the blade is able to cut hairs on my arm. I think the lack of a chip breaker and the inability to tweak this plane's settings are what's hurting me here. Still, each day I'm getting slightly better shavings out of it. I'll have that board squared and ready to go in no time (two weeks, haha).

On that note, I'll be in San Antonio this weekend (a rare excursion from Kingsville, TX), and know they have a Woodcraft there. Is there anything you recommend I get/ask about/pick up? I think they have some mid-level planes in both price and quality that could be worth investigating.

Again, thanks to all for the help thus far.

Ben


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

If the Woodriver planes you see at Woodcraft are out of your budget, I looked and Home Depot has a Stanley Bailey contractor grade plane 12-904 for $50 that might do you if budget is tight, as it appears more in the classic design than the one you have. 

My planes were my grandpa's and it honestly wasn't too bad bathing them in evaporust and setting them up if you've the time to recondition an old one. I've not purchased any on ebay, but I window shop there every now and then. There's a username johnfire1941 I saw recently putting together reconditioned 'user planes' presumably from scrap parts (so presumably, no collector's value, if that's important to you) from looking at his purchase history on there. It looks like they're sold ready to go. But if time is cheaper than money, then buy a rust bucket and follow one of Dave's threads on restoring it.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Working on the cap iron will NOT improve this plane.

:laughing:

There is NO cap iron. There is no chip breaker - and some people call that a cap iron.

What you have is a lever cap - normally presses down against the chip breaker (cap iron) to provide pressure against the iron. 

Working on the lever cap will have the least performance impact of anything else you might do.

Your best option with that plane is to buy a second iron and grind a heavy camber on it to do the bulk of the rough dressing. 

Read my article on Moxon and pay particular attention to the section of Fore Planes:
www.joinersbench.blogspot.com

Good luck


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

Roger that, firemedic. I'll look into the article you linked (and a better more capable plane). My inexperience is on full display here, thanks for being good sports and all.


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## EricD (Jan 17, 2013)

Instead of impulse buying a new hand plane for $50, why not impulse buy a vintage Stanley from ebay?


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

Eric: I think the impulse buys are over, in the sense that I had absolutely NOTHING to plane wood with and wanted to get started. I wish now I'd gotten the 50 dollar one, but I don't think I'm running over to Home Depot to grab one (also it's only available online and apparently they are out, haha). 

In any case, I'm not regretting much here. I have actually been spending some time with the bench plane in question and I've gotten it to the point where it can do good work for me. It takes a lot of fine tuning, isn't making glass-like surfaces, and is certainly a bit of a strain to use, but it's taking wood off more consistently and evenly and making some smooth wood for me. Doing all of this work had me browsing the thickness planers and jointers over at Lowes when I went to get some more sandpaper. Maybe at some point I'll spring for one of them. In the meantime, Eric said it: a vintage plane might be the trick, though I'm not in a huge rush now that this one is alright.

firemedic: Great blog/article. I'm mildly obsessed with Olde English and recently obsessed with woodworking--needless to say that article was fantastic to read and furthered my understanding of the planing process. Today I finally had reduced the cupping of the board enough to make some cuts with the circular saw. Working on a 21'' x 8'' x 1 3/4'' board is less daunting than the whole 6 foot length of it, even if I was only working a certain area. Tomorrow, I figure that I'll have the faces flat and the thickness nearly uniform.

(Does "thanks!"-ing someone mean anything on this site? If so, I'll click it for some of you above.)

Thanks,
Ben


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mannofiron said:


> Does "thanks!"-ing someone mean anything on this site? If so, I'll click it for some of you above.


I am not sure how the Thank statistics are used, but if you look at your profile or anyone else's you will see statistics for the number of times the person has been thanked, etc.


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## Bonka (Mar 24, 2011)

*Free Plane*

mannofiron

I have a Millers Falls No. 14. It needs a little rust knocked off it, the blade sharpened and a little oiling here and there. It is equivlent to a
SB #5 Jack Plane.
If you will tune it and use it I will send it to you. Just promise yourself that one day when you can afford it and someone else needs a little boost do. That will squaRe things up.
I have a MF #18 that is fore plane that is one of my go to planes after I tuned it up. The Jack will also be a life long user with proper care.


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## mannofiron (Jan 16, 2013)

Bonka: I'll gladly take you up on that if you are still inclined to be so generous. I'm already bringing a few other flight students here into the woodworking fold. Rest assured that the plane will be tuned, used, and passed on to an appropriate needy party. I'll send you a private message with my information. Thanks again.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mannofiron said:


> Bonka: I'll gladly take you up on that if you are still inclined to be so generous. I'm already bringing a few other flight students here into the woodworking fold. Rest assured that the plane will be tuned, used, and passed on to an appropriate needy party. I'll send you a private message with my information. Thanks again.


You need 25 posts to be able to send or receive private messages.

You can go to Bonka's profile and leave him a visitor message.

Also post the restore thread. We love to see pictures.

Nice offer Bonka. :thumbsup:


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