# Joinery ideas please, I'm stumped.



## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Hey guys, I need some help. I am making a hall table and need some help with my joinery for my aprons. I have front and back aprons with 90 deg M & T joinery. It also has angled aprons that I need to join to the legs. Has anyone ever done an anngled M&T joint? How would I do that? Is there a better form of joinery for this? I have a rough drawing of the table as viewed birds eye veiw with the table upside down. The angled aprons are the issue. They are labled #1 and 2. Any ideas?


----------



## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Might help if I post the rough sketch. Also, the apron is 2.5" x 3/4". The leg is 1 5/8 inch square. 

Well, I can't upload the drawing, so disregard. Sorry to waste your time.


----------



## sankofa (May 2, 2009)

Why cant you upload your sketch.

If its just too big for an attachment you can upload it to a file hosting site and post a link or you can use a program such as Irfanview to resize the image to something the board will load.

As far as an angled mortise and tenon.....Im sure it could be done... Im sure it has been done... I guess the only problem is if the tenon is cut in a way that might make it weak....

Here is a link to angled mortise and tenon....scroll down till you find it.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/tending-to-mortiseandtenon-joints.html


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A simplified method would be to use a loose tenon, which could be a loose spline or a dowel or two.


----------



## seanmacdougal (Feb 5, 2010)

Help me to understand your design a little better. 
Are the legs plumb or splayed?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This video show how*



ACP said:


> Hey guys, I need some help. I am making a hall table and need some help with my joinery for my aprons. I have front and back aprons with 90 deg M & T joinery. It also has angled aprons that I need to join to the legs. *Has anyone ever done an anngled M&T joint? How would I do that? Is there a better form of joinery for this? I* have a rough drawing of the table as viewed birds eye veiw with the table upside down. The angled aprons are the issue. They are labled #1 and 2. Any ideas?


:thumbsup: bill

About 3:00 into the video:


----------



## seanmacdougal (Feb 5, 2010)

"Rog, we gotcha, we're go on that alarm."

The legs are angled with respect to the legs in one dimension only, therefore your mortises and tenons would have to be angled in one dimension only as well. You could do this with tenons that are square to the apron or square to the leg; each has its advantages, depending on the situation. In this application, it's more customary to make the tenon parallel (or square) to the apron and to angle to mortise accordingly. Keep in mind that this type of table was made in large numbers by men who were not necessarily full-time cabinetmakers, and there was considerable variation in how the originals were made.
The cross cut end of the tenon would be angled at the leg pitch, as would the shoulders of the tenon. With a handsaw this is no big deal. You can easily do it on a table saw with a miter jig, but I prefer to cut them by hand. Cutting the cheeks of the tenon on the table saw would require you to angle them in a tenoning jig, which would work well if you had an angled gauge block to set them with. 

Layout of the mortise is also simple to do, but more difficult to explain. The basic idea is to lay the mortise out using the smallest dimensions it would require, and then to modify the two end grain walls to slope them with a chisel. A guide block, perhaps the same one from the tenoning jig, could be rested on top of the mortise part to give you an idea of the angle for your mortise chisel.

Please let us know if you need more


----------



## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate the ideas. I think I figured out my issue and got the sketch uploaded. My problem with this specific design, and I am sure it's inexperience, is the angles of the aprons. The legs are all 90 deg. where the apron would attach, but apron #1 and #3 are at angles into the legs. Perhaps I lack the skill or know-how to make or choose a strong, effective joinery for this spot. The video did give me some ideas and I thank you for posting it Bill. I am going to start from scratch with the table, but haven't been able to do anything with it due to time constraints.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I can see why now!*

Aprons 1 and 3 intersect the legs at an angle in plan view, but 90 degrees in side view. That is definitely some tricky joinery, since it requires keeping the faces of the legs at right angles or parallel. Maybe Charles Neil has done something similiar? You listening Charles? 
Possibly by setting the dado head at the required angle, but then to do the opposite angle on the opposing piece you'd need a right tilt saw.....man this gets tricky. :blink: Now I'm thinkin' router table..... 
maybe RAS? Mortising machine....hand cutting....I'm outa' here! bill
Maybe there is a use for a "right tilt" TS?
I saw this on You Tube today, look at 2:08 into the video, an angled tenon:


----------



## rubibo (Feb 6, 2010)

*Domino Joiner*

This would be a cinch job for a Festool Domino joiner, if you can afford the $700 price tag. I wouldn't invest in one just for this project but if you plan on doing this kind of thing repeatedly in the future, the Domino would sure make your life easier.


----------



## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Great videos Bill. That British fella sure does come up with some neat fixtures and jigs. I am also glad to see that British handymen wear flannel too.... But seriously. I think I will, if I continue with the angle tenon theory, have to make an angled sleigh to cut it with a router. I may take the design back to the drawing board. I thought this would be easier than steam bending. I may be wrong in that....


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Never give up..*

I found this cool jig by Leigh: http://www.leighjigs.com/superfmt.php
$450.00 too much for my blood right now, however. Video at the bottom.
It can even do angled tenons. I don't see why a similar wooden version couldn't be made with a tilting table or a way to angle the workpiece underneath like the Leigh. I'm still thinkin' on the angled dados , probably a jig on the router table. That way we don't need a right tilt table saw...
:laughing: bill


----------



## jlhaslip (Jan 16, 2010)

keep it simple. Angled M&T or a biscuit joint?


----------

