# Your opinion on exotic woods



## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi, 

I know with this I might stir the pot but I want some logical and well funded opinions.

I am a naturalist and am aware of the impact of human activity. Most of the time people follow patterns because that is how they've done it for ever or is the easiest way to do things. 

One example is the use of palm oil on a large amount of foods. There are lots of third world countries ( like Sumatra and Borneo) that are killing orangutans and their habitats to exploit and produce palm oil:furious:. 

I'd like to know what is the opinion of wood workers about exotic woods that sometimes is hard to find out if they have been harvested legally or not. What is our responsibility or should be?

Just a thought. 

PS I am loving learning about woodworking.:smile:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

ecologito said:


> .
> 
> I'd like to know what is the opinion of wood workers about exotic woods that sometimes is hard to find out if they have been harvested legally or not. What is our responsibility or should be?


MOST woodworkers would be amazed at the "exotics" growing on their own block. (the vast percentage of ornamentals/urban trees are not native :no:, some are even considered "invasive species" )
The harvest is legal...but the lack utilization is on the verge of criminal. A guy could wring his hands about what is going on *2000* miles away in forestry, or look a little closer to home. I am not an environmentalist, just a realist, but the mantra seems to be "Think globally, act locally". What is more local than your home town ? Urban logging (Google search it). I will now step off my soapbox and let more informed people on the subject chime in.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

ecologito said:


> Hi,
> . . . . I am a naturalist . . . .


Let's start here. What makes you a _naturalist_?


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## Check twice! (Mar 31, 2008)

A naturalist... hum! I personally have a difficult job distinguishing what a naturalist is. 

On a global perspective there are a lot of spieces of tree that have been almost wiped out by lack of planning on the foresters who harvest the wood. (South American Mahogony, for one / Hondurus Mahogony) 

A number of "third world cultures" have been raped of their natural resources, with no plan of what is left for the future. 

This being said our fishing on the east coast of Canada has been over fished to a point of "endangered spieces" (Cod being one) 

I live in a country with an abundant amount of resources but we still rape our own land and in a lot of cases with no thought of our children.

Do I agree with this "NO" but this problem was created one person at a time and will only be repaired one person at a time. 

I am not a "naturalist" but a logical and caring person. I am not going to fix things with a majic wand, but I am one person who tries to think wise.

I do use exotic woods with no understanding how they found their way to the shop I purchased it from, only that it has made it to the shop.

I use my auto (burning the fossil fuel) to pick up my wood, take it home use the electricity (produced by fuels of one sort or another), cutting it on a saw that was built using natural resources, etc.

I am sorry but to me, a naturilist is a person who wears leaves for clothes (or no clothes at all) eats natural home grown products out of there own garden, does not own a TV, use an auto, etc as these are not natural but man made using the resources you choose to protect.

You are a thimble of water in an ocean, and the ocean currants take you on the same path as us all.

I guess in a lot of ways we are all hypocrites in one way or another, even naturilists. We talk the talk but never walk the walk.

This question, is not a question that has a right answer, as we all see things different and set our own priorities, based on what we see as being important and the right thing to do for us.

Will you change my mind or views "NO". 

Life always gives us choices and there will always be opposing views, with different paths for each of us.

Man... I gotta stop, I could go on forever.

Through the eyes of John


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## Ol' Dave (May 2, 2008)

ecologito said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know with this I might stir the pot but I want some logical and well funded opinions...
> 
> One example is the use of palm oil on a large amount of foods. There are lots of third world countries ( like Sumatra and Borneo) that are killing orangutans and their habitats to exploit and produce palm oil:furious:.


Would you prefer the people of third world countries ( like Sumatra and Borneo) stop doing anything at all to feed themselves? 
Not sure if my opinion is well funded but, orangutans are not important in the least when compared to human beings.

BTW, how does one exploit palm oil?


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> Let's start here. What makes you a _naturalist_?


I am sorry, That is my job position. I have a BS in ecology and I work as a naturalist interpreter for Cleveland Metroparks. I am also a member of the National Association for Interpretation.

Like John said and just like him I do also drive a car and use electricity, it would be unreasonable think of a real life without it. We all have to make some choices and some are easier to make than others ( using LED light bulbs at home instead of incandescent or Compact Fluorescent lights). 

Other than that, I love hiking, camping, rock climbing, white water kayaking, fly remote control planes and now I am trying to learn about wood working.

I agree with Daren, landscapers use all kind of plants that are not endemic. I heard about garlic mustard salad ( very invasive plant), what a better way to eliminate the problem than eating it? 

I didn't want people to debate about my job but I guess that was my mistake for not explaining what I meant. I'd like to know what do wood workers do to make informed decisions when picking a type of wood or where to get it from. 

There is a new and very small group of mining companies that are trying to do their job environmentally responsible and they call this group " Responsible miners" and just like Fair trade for other industries I don't know if there is some trend or standard for the logging industry.:huh:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

ecologito said:


> I work as a naturalist interpreter for Cleveland Metroparks.


Do me a favor and find out what they do with the trees that have to be removed from the parks...bet they haul them to the landfill/tubgrinder :confused1:

I am not picking on you, just adding my 2 cents. I am getting an earful of "green cities" touting how many trees they plan on planting in the next 1/5/10...years...the whole time hauling off the ones our grandfathers planted as so much garbage instead of making them available for utilization. (let a guy with a sawmill have them)


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

Ol' Dave said:


> Would you prefer the people of third world countries ( like Sumatra and Borneo) stop doing anything at all to feed themselves?
> Not sure if my opinion is well funded but, orangutans are not important in the least when compared to human beings.
> 
> BTW, how does one exploit palm oil?


I am sorry if I misused the word exploit, English is not my native language as you can tell but I am working on it.

I know that humans seem to think that we are the most important thing and nature is either something that we use or is on our way. But it is not ok to kill animals to the verge of extinction because we want to use palm oil. There are ways to grow it on a farm setting but it is easier for people to take what is already there instead of growing their own. 

It has been a pain on the neck to buy my groceries and buy only products without palm oil because I would not like to go to a zoo, show my kids or grandkids an orangutan and say, you see that animal there?, they are gone.


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## Check twice! (Mar 31, 2008)

ecologito

Now I got that off my chest, I want to thank you for the topic, it made me think!

What are you doing in woodworking, making lots of saw dust I hope. 
Do you have any projects on the go.

Pleased to meet you.

Have a gereat day.
John


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

Thans John I hope I am making a lot of sustainable Dust:thumbsup: :yes: 

Nice to meet you too.

Does anyone know any sources of sustainable wood?

So far I have only built a key holder / shelf and right now I am building a bird box. I live at an apartment so no shop, but lots and lots of dust and shavings on the guest room.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

When I hear someone describe themself as a _natuarilst_, I immediately roll my eyes. It sounds like to me you are simply trying to be a _good steward_ . . . at least attempting to be. 

My hair automatically stands up on the back of my neck when I see someone, on the internet, typing from a heated/air-conditioned structure, sitting in a nice comfy cushioned chair, sipping imported coffee, all of which were manufactured/processed/transported using fossil fuels, illegally logged timber to some degree, and claiming to be on the cutting edge of _conservationalism, naturalism, green stewardship_ or however else you want to phrase it. 

If someone is gonna preach that I say either take up your cross and lead by example or quit claiming you are doing any good, and fostering the idea that you have higher and nobler ideals and "intentions". Intentions mean nothing and by using the "non-naturalist" system which you are obviously helping to perpetuate, you deny yourself any credibility as actually walking your talk. 

You won't change anyone's habits by saying one thing but doing another, even if you lay out all the disclaimers such as "I know I use electricity and buy groceries at the grocery store (which perpetuates the serfdom of the migrant workers if you want to split hairs) BUT . . ." No, no "buts". 

I am not attacking you in your personal capacity, just the philosophy you have adopted. It has no meaning any more that the tree huggers who lay in front of bulldozers during the day, and on their way to their grid-dependent very cozy, un-green *stick framed* 80%-wood-product-homes, first stop by the unemployment office to pick up their checks which the loggers pay for through their taxes.

But other than that I have no real strong opinions on the matter. I better get out to the sawmill I have some trees i need to turn into cash so I can pay my taxes so the local treehuggers can protest my fossil-fuel-dependent sawmill. :blink:


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> When I hear someone describe themself as a _natuarilst_, I immediately roll my eyes. It sounds like to me you are simply trying to be a _good steward_ . . . at least attempting to be.
> 
> My hair automatically stands up on the back of my neck when I see someone, on the internet, typing from a heated/air-conditioned structure, sitting in a nice comfy cushioned chair, sipping imported coffee, all of which were manufactured/processed/transported using fossil fuels, illegally logged timber to some degree, and claiming to be on the cutting edge of _conservationalism, naturalism, green stewardship_ or however else you want to phrase it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your non attacking opinion on "my" phiolosophy". What about the non sustainable exotic wood topic?

I agree with you, I don't like protesters against globalization who travel all over the world and coordinate their actions through the internet (makes no sense). All I do is try to inform myself and make better decisions whenever possible.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> I better get out to the sawmill I have some trees i need to turn into cash so I can pay my taxes so the local treehuggers can protest my fossil-fuel-dependent sawmill. :blink:


:laughing:, yep you better get busy.
_"someone, on the internet, typing from a heated/air-conditioned structure, sitting in a nice comfy cushioned chair, sipping imported coffee, all of which were manufactured/processed/transported using fossil fuels, illegally logged timber to some degree, and claiming to be on the cutting edge of conservationalism, naturalism, green stewardship_ or however else you want to phrase it."

And I will add the chair/table the coffee is setting on/computer desk...is all most likely imported from someplace that was made in a sweatshop by workers with no rights from less than ideally forested wood. I love it when they print up fliers and try to shove them in my hand about saving trees. :laughing: Like they don't even know where paper comes from. :confused1: :wallbash:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

ecologito said:


> Does anyone know any sources of sustainable wood?


:whistling2:I think I have to stop participating in this conversation. I asked a question of you "What do they do with the trees in the parks in Cleveland when they are removed" or any of the 10,000's that are removed in the greater metro area ?
http://nelsonwoodworks.biz/pb/wp_1b63ff05/wp_1b63ff05.html

Here is the contact info for the Cleveland Parks Department (if you do not already have it) http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/government/departments/parksrecprop/prpadmin/index.asp
I see Mr. Cox's workers will come and cut down a street tree...where does it go ?


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

Daren said:


> :whistling2:I think I have to stop participating in this conversation. I asked a question of you "What do they do with the trees in the parks in Cleveland when they are removed" or any of the 10,000's that are removed in the greater metro area ?
> http://nelsonwoodworks.biz/pb/wp_1b63ff05/wp_1b63ff05.html
> 
> Here is the contact info for the Cleveland Parks Department (if you do not already have it) http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/government/departments/parksrecprop/prpadmin/index.asp
> I see Mr. Cox's workers will come and cut down a street tree...where does it go ?


I saw your link to urban logging and it is awesome what you do, wood, the shavings, it is awesome!

I am sorry I didn't answer but I don't know the answer right away, but I had to check with the Department of natural resources. We are a separate entity from the Cleveland Parks department and we have nothing to do with them. www.clemetparks.com

If the tree is blocking a roadway or trail they cut it to clear the trail and let nature do the rest. If they decide that the wood will be available for people to take they stack it next to the road (seem to work really well). With Ash is a different procedure due to the ash borer problem. If the tree is something that can be workable our forestry department will take it to their shop and build benches, furniture or whatever can be done with it.


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## Check twice! (Mar 31, 2008)

eco

Maybe try some of these exotic wood sites. They may answer your ecologoly concerns.
http://woodfinder.com/woods/woodindex.php
http://www.gilmerwood.com/
http://woodfinder.com/woods/woodindex.php

I may suggest glimerwood as a start.This is 3 of many that sell exotic woods.

John


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks for the links John,

I found a couple of websites that seem promising and very interesting:

http://www.altruwood.com/

NOt sure about Kauri: http://www.ancientwood.com/index.htm

Very cool info: http://www.bluemoonexoticwood.com/index1.html

Cheers


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

I guess I will jump in now. I have seen quite a bit of the exotic lumber from overseas. I believe that there are some over exploited areas and species, but there are also some areas/people that are trying to make a difference. I cut back on a lot of my own exotic wood purchases. The flip side of the problems is utilization of the trees. People need to eat, and if the cheapest way is to cut some trees and grow some crops, then that is how they are going to do it. There are some great "exotics" that may get wiped out because they are not viable in their current harverst quantities to make a market. Who is going to replant a small market/niche tree when they can grow teak, fast growing lyptus, cash crops, etc. that have established markets. Even the US has problems utilizing trees to the fullest extent. I like to use wood that would otherwise be trashed, especially since I use short and figured pieces. Here in Texas we have this little problem called air pollution from the grandfathered coal plants, but the coal strip mine on I-45 between Houston and Dallas is the cleanest mining site I have ever seen. They even had a portable mill working on a pile of the trees they had to remove when I drove by one day. It is what led me to the discovery of what a portable mill is, urban lumber, and the decline of some exotic woods I was using.


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## drcollins804 (Jan 11, 2008)

In the time this thread has existed there have been numerous exotic trees cut and burned in the Tropical Rain Forests by locals just trying to carve out a small place to grow food and live and because of the limited ability to grow in a not very fertile land they will move again in 3-5 years and do the same thing again. Not unlike the way our ancesters settled much of this country. A very large percentage of the exotic woods never become furniture or anything else except heat and ashes. Just like many of the trees in the "civilized" world. Just a few observations.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

drcollins804 said:


> Not unlike the way our ancesters settled much of this country. A very large percentage of the wood never become furniture or anything else except heat and ashes. Just a few observations.


Good ones too.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

It's just a confounded imperfect world if you ask me. Danged humans. I say we exterminate them. They make great fertilizer you know.


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## Marko (Feb 11, 2008)

drcollins804 said:


> In the time this thread has existed there have been numerous exotic trees cut and burned in the Tropical Rain Forests by locals just trying to carve out a small place to grow food and live.


I read an article not to long ago and I won't quote it because of my "lack of statistical memory":blink: , this was not a "treehugger" type publication.It was an observation by an urban logger who harvests municipal street trees.In the article it stated that "Ipe" is harvested to such an extent in central and south america that ALL other speices in the way lie wasted on the once abundant and florishing rain forest floor(i do not remember where he rec'vd his info,but I do remember it was reputable)What this essentially meant was the logging activity(which BTW,could've and probably is funded by American Co.'s)only included "IPE" as the target tree.The problem is that "Ipe" is outnumbered by every other species in the forest 15 to 1.Do the math,if there was only 4 other species(and there isn't, theres 100's) in the forest that is 60 trees getting burned or trashed in one way shape or form to get to one tree.The company's funding this activity basically write there the own rules along way."Selective harvesting"(and if you ever here the term you should be on guard)has been the demise of ecologically sustainable forest all over since the begginning of time.Selective harvesting is not well regulated,and it's always biased to lining the coffers of someone elses financial plan.I used the "Ipe" example just to bring the issue to light.I know there is alot more involved that I did not bring up,it's irrelevant for now and the story will go on forever.This was disturbing enough to me due to how much "Ipe" American Co.'s import for decking.This has all happened in the last 5-7 years.10 years ago we didn't even know the value,and I say "value" tongue in cheek.It's a terrible injustice to humanity and wildlife to not do something to change these awful habits.Someone made a comment about 2000 miles away.The only thing that would stop the harvest's would be stopping the demand.It's a vicious cycle and I look at how fast that cycle started.I heard someone say once that we had 20% more forest now than we had in 1900 or 1920 or something like that.I don't know about you, but in live smack 'dab in the middle of 3 National forest's that were completely de-forested 100 yrs. ago.CLEAR CUT!See what I mean? I woulda kept that info to myself if I knew that it took a proverbial "act of Congress" to stop the nonsense back then.We have a beautiful flourishing forest today that'll be around for 100's if not 1000's of years as long as we harvest responsibly.
Now I know I've gone on and on but to get to the real question about knowing where it's coming from.
I have some purpleheart,Mahogany and a few other exotics downstairs in the shop.Had 'em a few years.I found out recently where they came from...Someone I know(who I got the wood from)bought the mining rights to a lake bed down in South America.Evidently,someone needed water/wood or both.Flooding the land will preserve those great trees for centuries.I do not agree with this type of logging and don't quite understand it either.I;ve done alittle research about this "lake" in particular and nobody wants to talk about it.The guy I know who bought the rights has 300mbft of ipe,purpleheart,mahog,jatoba etc.His flooring company is doing really well.He offered me a job on the barges overseeing a small part of this huge operation(thats when I found out WHAT he was doing).It's hard for me to turn down such jobs,feed my family,hardly any good paying jobs here,see the world!.I worked the Carribean Islands for years and loved every day,but the exploitation taking place south of the border is herendous!For me,I will not participate in this type of harvesting.I can't,I love all god's creatures and I understand the fundamentals of "why" the place was better before I/man got here..I'll stop now,:thumbsup: 
I really just wanted to say here's little ole me in Shootin' Crick ,NC. and this exploitation of the "exotics" is literally happening down the street from me......when I say "exotics" I mean Rainforest Exotics. 
I wish I coulda kept this shorter(my coffe is cold now)but I really believe that most of us who mill, share the same sentiments and if not, we probably CAN with little debate. It's a harsh reality but the fact of the matter is, it WILL take some Congressional action to turn the tides.:yes:


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## Ol' Dave (May 2, 2008)

ecologito said:


> I am sorry if I misused the word exploit, English is not my native language as you can tell but I am working on it.
> 
> I know that humans seem to think that we are the most important thing and nature is either something that we use or is on our way. But it is not ok to kill animals to the verge of extinction because we want to use palm oil. There are ways to grow it on a farm setting but it is easier for people to take what is already there instead of growing their own.
> 
> It has been a pain on the neck to buy my groceries and buy only products without palm oil because I would not like to go to a zoo, show my kids or grandkids an orangutan and say, you see that animal there?, they are gone.


Sorry about the the late reply, the storms that move through blew one of the local exotics ( massive yeller pine) across the power lines.

As for English being not being your native language, I would have never know.

On the endangered animal thing, we will just have to agree to disagree. If the orangutan became extinct today not one human would suffer any physical loss. I wouldn't even think to kill one unless I were endangered by it but if if feeding my family meant that all orangutans would have to move along or starve, too bad.

As for the trees, I believe we should be good stewards of our lands.
I don't waste anything and try to get the most out of everything.
Trees are renewable, you harvest them, replant them and in 20-25 years you do it again. Some trees however are not like that. Old growth Redwoods for example. They seem to me to have more value standing where they are than they ever would cut into lumber.
A lot of our own "native" hardwoods are like that. Try finding a Walnut you could get a 15" board out of, pretty hard.

So, for me I think we should tend to our own lands and mind our own business when it comes to what people and other countries do with theirs. It's kind of sad to see some of those wonderful trees gone forever, but they can be replaced.


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## Devildog (Apr 20, 2008)

Maybe I'll jump in the fray here, just to make a few points.

I live where some of that 'exotic' wood comes from - in my case, in Thailand right by the borders of Laos and Cambodia. In terms of well known varieties: this is very much Padauk country, but not a lot of teak in these parts.

Anyway, I have 2 points to make. First, the perception that rain forest is being cut down because some poor peasant has to eke out a few calories for the day is not how it works. Wood is exploited en masse here by corporate interests with government collusion. (I've posted about this at woodnet not too long ago.) The people moving wood are not 2-bit peasants, but politicians, business tycoons, military officers, high ranking policemen, etc. This is big business, often dangerous. If wood is being poached, there will be as many AK-47s as chainsaws. *If* it's being poached. It may be taken legally, it's just the laws are bad or corrupted.

Corruption is not always involved, although it very often is. The trouble is, it's very hard to sort out which sources of wood are from 'ethical' forestry sources, and which are from corrupt sources. You can't go by 'government approved' type labels, because the governments around here are all so corrupt. You can't go with the 'oh, the wood would have been cut anyway, because it's in an area soon to be inundated by a dam' because local corrupt politicians lobby for the sites of dams (and other development projects) to be put in areas where the most valuable old-growth trees are, specifically so that they can cut them and sell them.

Woodworkers like the folks on this list, buying a few pieces of retail tropical wood here and there, don't make much of a dent in the overall trade. The big business is in transactions between, for example, Laos and Vietnam (Laos pays off debt to Vietnam in the form of wood; Vietnam is a massive furniture exporter; Lao forests are fast being depleted) or between Burma and China (China wants cheap resources; Burma wants to cut down all the forests in ethnic insurgent areas so that it may more effectively rape and kill the latter). Any wood from Burma is suspect, btw. That government is so corrupt, so inept, and so malevolent that nothing it says can be trusted. Look at the situation this week: tens of thousands of people dead, millions homeless, and the animals in charge won't let rescue teams in. That should tell you something about burmese government ethics.

In other places (Laos, Cambodia) there are good sources and bad - again, it's hard sorting out which is which. There has been a logging moratorium in both Vietnam and Thailand (in Thailand since 1989).... which raises the stakes but does not entirely stop illicit logging.

There will always be a demand... what is needed in this area of the world (and no doubt similarly in the Amazon) is effective regulation and preservation, and a healthy skepticism about the efficacy of forestry policy that sounds good on paper.

in my gallery is a pic I took of Lao wood from virgin forest going to vietnam... such trucks are hauling logs day in day out.... the road being developed is funded by the ABD... the swath of trees being cleared is far wider than it needs to be (say: ka-ching!) ...


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## Devildog (Apr 20, 2008)

hey, since i'm on a roll, i'd also like to comment on what drcollins804 said:
'they will move again in 3-5 years and do the same thing again'

This kind of agriculture, whether you call it 'rotational', 'swidden' or the more pejorative 'slash and burn', has gotten a bit of a bum rap. 
It was sustainable for centuries, millenia even, precisely because the big trees were *not* cut or burned. The idea would be, you burn the brush, plant for a year or two, and then rotate fields, coming back to the original field after no less than about 7 years, in which time the brush had all regenerated.

Nowadays it gets trickier. Logging over the last 100 years has removed the big trees from many areas. Population expansion puts pressure on the fallow fields. And most of all, governments aren't comfortable with people who lead a semi-nomadic life. So they nationalize the forests, and suddenly all those minorities are 'encroachers' abusing state resources. Ouch!
What about the endless hectares of lowlands cleared for rice agriculture? That will *never* return to forest, not in seven years, not ever, but do they call that 'slash and burn'? No! Because those aren't minorities doing it! 

Anyway, if they would stop swidden agriculture and preserve the forest, I wouldn't gripe. But the more common pattern is to stop swidden ag, 'relocate' minorities, and then cut all the valuable timber from a government 'concession'.

see, now you got me all riled up. morning for y'all is nighttime for me, so I'm out.


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## Aaronmcc (Apr 12, 2008)

I consider my self environmentally conscious. I try to buy wood that was grown on a managed forest or plantation and avoid the really endangered woods. I'm also a realist and a pessimist (neat how those work so well). I hope we can learn better ways but I know we won't. I don't want to sound like a hippie or tree hugger but I have little sympathy for the human race. An 'ideal' (in quotes) population for the world is approx. half of what it is now. As for humans being more important than orangutans (touchy issue and a subject where people are polarized to the point of where they won't change their opinion (just as I won't)) I believe we brought this on our self and we should be the ones to suffer and not some animal. I also believe that nothing changes by sitting back and just criticizing how nothing is working.


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## Devildog (Apr 20, 2008)

i think aaronmcc has the right idea:
'try to buy wood that was grown on a managed forest or plantation and avoid the really endangered woods'

Seems to me fanatical tree huggers serve a purpose in that they balance out the greedy bastards who would chop down sequoia nat'l park and sell it for kindling, if they thought they could make a buck. I don't have a lot of time for either type, though.

It seems to me woodworkers, like the folks on this page, are a positive force in all this... we know and care a lot about the wood we are using, certainly more so than non-woodworkers. We have a vested interest in keeping wood supplies sustainable and in finding ways to get good wood in good ways. And we are citizens of a country where we can vote and take social/political action, however large or small, to help make those good things stick. 

Forums like this are a great example - woodworkers asking each other where to get wood that was harvested ethically. the information age at work!


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## Check twice! (Mar 31, 2008)

I believe in a balanced universe, "for every action, there is equal reaction", always two forces. Always choices and options, this makes us individuals.

We all believe we are consious of the problem but like a horse with blinders we see straight ahead, if we really take the time to look past the wood issue or any individual issue, to the big picture, it would scare us. 

We have always been explorers, exploiters, and excuses. Our history shows us this.

Factual thing about humans "we can justify anything at all to ourselves".

I may be cynical, and a fool but this is OK, as I walk with my blinders looking straight ahead. We care about what is important to us, that is the bottom line.

This subject can be debated for ever but we all "live in glass houses, so stone thowing is not wise.

As humans do we deserve this planet? 

The leaders of our world as well as individuals can not get a grip on world peace, let alone trees, atmosphere, etc.

It is so easy to miss the forest, because the trees are hiding it!

Through the eyes of John


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Devildog, your posts here on this subject is great, and what I would have hoped to see in a thread about exotic wood. This is the kind of information I like to see in a forum. Facts (as you see them) from someone right there in the thick of it able to make real world observations. 

I totally forgot about you being here on this forum until you reminded me recemtly and then, I didn't realize how in tune you are with the regional situations there. 

This gives someone enough information to ask relevant questions from their suppliers. Suppliers can lie, but at least you have the right questions to start with. 

Thank you for making this post and sticking to facts. I know some will argue/challenge some of the things you say but that goes with the territory.


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## Check twice! (Mar 31, 2008)

Texas Timbers
You are correct, I did miss the theme of the thread,....... exotic wood.

Thanks, sorry!
John


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## Devildog (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks, TexasTimbers
Part of my job here concerns various ethnic minorities, so deforestation is an issue that constantly crops up.
Check out this chilling stat from Burma (from 2005)
Fifteen tonnes of illegally logged timber is passing over the Burmese border into China every seven minutes, 24 hours a day, every day of the year, the report said.
Reported by BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4352042.stm

it boggles the mind.

btw, when you read the last paragraph:
A year ago, Burma's former Prime Minister Khin Nyunt was removed from his post following allegations that he had controlled and profited from many of the smuggling routes. 
Don't interpret this as meaning the Burmese government is battling corruption. The way to understand this is:
Oops! Poor ol' Khin Nyunt, forgot to pay somebody off!

Burma-->China timber is, after all, a $400,000,000 per year business. Not exactly a few peasants with a skinny buffalo and a rusty till.


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## Aaronmcc (Apr 12, 2008)

fsc.org is a site with some good information.


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## ecologito (Jan 27, 2008)

I want to thank everybody for your valuable contributions. As I posted, all I wanted to know is how aware woodworkers on the forum were about this issue and what the options were since I am new to this hobby. I never came here with the intention to burn hell or make people change opinions. I think the thread is serving the purpose I started it for, get some valuable information, learn about different opinions and make some friends in the process.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

ecologito said:


> I never came here with the intention to burn hell or make people change opinions.


No sweat. You didn't do either.


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