# Topcoat over a cerused finish??



## pokerlizard (Sep 26, 2011)

I was wondering if there is any other topcoat that I could use after doing a cerusing on oak. I used an ebony water based aniline dye, then shellac cut with DNA, then liming wax and then a buff with clear wax to remove the excess white film. I've even used naphtha to take off the excess wax on the ebonized part. Now normally I just leave it with the wax but a friend of mine wants to do it but make the topcoat glossier. She works with lacquer but I guess lacquer over shellac is a no-no. Any ideas?? I know using a water based topcoat will dilute the ebony but I'm just confused as to what I can use over what. Won't the liming wax cause an issue?? Or if i've removed the excess but left it in the grain, will it matter? sigh.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

pokerliz said:


> I was wondering if there is any other topcoat that I could use after doing a cerusing on oak. I used an ebony water based aniline dye, then shellac cut with DNA, then liming wax and then a buff with clear wax to remove the excess white film. I've even used naphtha to take off the excess wax on the ebonized part. Now normally I just leave it with the wax but a friend of mine wants to do it but make the topcoat glossier. She works with lacquer but I guess lacquer over shellac is a no-no. Any ideas?? I know using a water based topcoat will dilute the ebony but I'm just confused as to what I can use over what. Won't the liming wax cause an issue?? Or if i've removed the excess but left it in the grain, will it matter? sigh.


I think you pretty much killed the idea of topcoating the finish when you put wax on it. Specifically what product did you use for the lime white? Had you not used wax you could have used a precatalyzed lacquer. If you used standard shellac instead of de-waxed shellac it would let out a water base polyurethane as poly won't adhere to shellac. It would need to be a finish that would remain clear. Anyway it's doubtful you can clean enough of the wax off to be assured a finish would adhere. Your best chance if you are going to do it is clean the wax off with Dupont Prepsol Solvent frequently changing rags. Then topcoat with the precatalyzed lacquer. If need be you might use a super blonde shellac but it will amber slightly over time.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

In a professional shop ceruse finishes are done without using liming wax for just the reasons you found out. All of my finishes are done with a 2K urethane but any lacquer, pre-cat or conversion varnish could work as well. My schedule is as follows:

Step 1. Sand oak to 180 grit and then wire brush to open the pores up.

Step 2. Spray on alcohol based dye stain (I use Keystone Nerosol) in your case wanting an ebony I would use their Black J with a couple drops of orange to warm up the color a little.

Step 3. Full coat of sealer (I do a wash coat first, scuff sand with 400 grit and then spray a full wet coat to get a very smooth sealed surface) 

Step 4. For my ceruse now I use a high build water based primer (Camger) I brush and rub it into the grain wet and then using a window squeegee I squeegee all the excess off the surface. This leaves an almost perfect ceruse with just a very small amount of white on the surface. I used to use oil based paste filler but the WB primer works so much better and dries much faster so I switched.

Step 5. After the primer has fully dried (about an hour but I usually let it sit all night) I block sand the surface to get the remaining white off from where I don't want it. 

Step 6. I spray on another seal coat just to make sure the primer is sealed in and can't have any reactions to the top coat.

Step 7. Scuff sand with 400 grit, tack off dust and top coat with whatever sheen finish is required for the job.

Definitely want to do samples before attempting on an actual project and it is VERY important to watch the grain structure as more grain will change the overall color as well as the cut of the wood, either all rift cut or all plain sliced.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Rick Mosher said:


> In a professional shop ceruse finishes are done without using liming wax for just the reasons you found out. All of my finishes are done with a 2K urethane but any lacquer, pre-cat or conversion varnish could work as well. My schedule is as follows:
> 
> Step 1. Sand oak to 180 grit and then wire brush to open the pores up.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting your process.








 







.


----------



## pokerlizard (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow. Thanks Rick. Had no idea there was another way. So since I've already done it the original way, I'm basically SOL? There is nothing else I can do for a different top coat? 
do you have any pics you can post of your technique? Plus maybe the products you use? I don't' think I've heard of any those items. 
thanks again.:thumbsup:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

pokerliz said:


> Wow. Thanks Rick. Had no idea there was another way. So since I've already done it the original way, I'm basically SOL? There is nothing else I can do for a different top coat?
> do you have any pics you can post of your technique? Plus maybe the products you use? I don't' think I've heard of any those items.
> thanks again.:thumbsup:


The only real difference in what I use than Rick does is I use an oil base paint for the ceruse. I've used latex and the oil base gives more open time to work it. Then if you happen to spread out more than you can work and it sets up you can dampen a rag with mineral spirits to wipe it. I normally use Promar Exterior Alkyd Flat from Sherwin Williams.


----------



## pokerlizard (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks Steve. I have heard of that process as well. However, we can't get oil based paint out here in Calif. Although, I think I have a can of Rustoleum oil base paint from a few years ago. 
I suppose I could try the water based enamel to push it in the grain and then use the spirits to clean it up. I'm just afraid it would leave a film over the ebony part. 
I'll try that on a sample piece. Thanks for the input!

BTW, here is the one I did with the liming wax and water based dye.


----------



## pokerlizard (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh Steve, one more question. What do you use to seal the dye before applying the ceruse? If you don't use the shellac, than what? Rick says he uses a full coat sealer. What kind would that be??


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With water based paint you should use water for clean up. Since it dries quick just work smaller areas at a time.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

If you have wiped the surface down really well, I believe a dewaxed shellac would adhere fine. I have sprayed over waxed surfaces before without problem. Usually the only problem is some areas don't dry well and stay sticky. I just wipe those down with a cloth dampened with water and they dry right up. Do some samples first to make sure.


----------

