# Norfab system up and runing



## Dewood (Jun 22, 2014)

After much delay from what I feel was poor service from my local norfab distributer I have finally received my ductwork. I submitted a drawing of my self designed system to my local distributer and they put the order together and placed the order. The shipment arrived in 1 huge box strapped to a pallet about 2 weeks later. The snaplock clamp together system is very nice and makes making changes a snap. I installed most of the system myself but having a helper at least for the overhead runs was a must for me. I didn't bother including blast gates with my order as the norfab gates are 4 or 5 times the price as others. This ducting is pricy but I think its a good investment in my shop and should last a lifetime. Total cost of my ducting system was about $4K. So far I'm very pleased the system and cant wait to start my next project to put the system to a true test.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Your ductwork looks great. Top notch work. :yes:

But your dust collector is not anywhere near big enough for all of that. (unless you close all blastgates to machines not being used and only actually use one machine at a time)

Even at that, you would have got better performance just by rolling the DC over to the tool being used at the time and connecting with a shorter hose.


----------



## Dewood (Jun 22, 2014)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Your ductwork looks great. Top notch work. :yes:
> 
> But your dust collector is not anywhere near big enough for all of that. (unless you close all blastgates to machines not being used and only actually use one machine at a time)
> 
> Even at that, you would have got better performance just by rolling the DC over to the tool being used at the time and connecting with a shorter hose.


 Thanks for the opinion. I only open the gate for the tool I'm using and roling it from tool to tool is a pain. I will put it to the test and if a biger collector is needed then thats the next step.


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*Dust System*

I love your Norfab system and I kinda wish I installed the same myself when I put in my Oneida V-3000 system. I oped for the 6" snap together pipe sold by Oneida and while it was a whole lot cheaper, it not nearly as clean as your system. I agree with Oneal that your dust collector looks kind of small for that amount of pipe and I would be interested in hearing about your dust collection on your next project. I found out that the hood size at the machines has a big effect at the overall efficiency and had to redesign my Planer and Jointer hoods to get dust free cutting.

Very clean shop,

Jack


----------



## Dewood (Jun 22, 2014)

I have started a simple cutting board project to test the system. I work alone and having just 1 gate open at a time is my intent. The system seems to collect very well, i expected to see more dust released at the top of my table saw blade and had none or not enough to notice. Also collected exceptionally well at the jointer, plainer and drum sander. I'm happy and content with it.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Dewood said:


> I have started a simple cutting board project to test the system. I work alone and having just 1 gate open at a time is my intent. The system seems to collect very well, i expected to see more dust released at the top of my table saw blade and had none or not enough to notice. Also collected exceptionally well at the jointer, plainer and drum sander. I'm happy and content with it.


I started this morning with a clean and dust free tabletop on my saw and had THIS in less than 5 minutes:








(would have looked worse if not for the fan behind me pushing most of the dust back towards the rear of the saw table) 


I 'only' ripped something like 12 pieces of wood to get all that...









*I am using that same exact type of dust collector as you are in your pics above *as the 'designated' DC for JUST this tablesaw and it is sitting directly next to the saw attached with a very short 4" inside diameter hose. Tablesaw in my case IS buttoned up 'fairly' tight to prevent DC from sucking from places it should not be sucking air at...



















Dust still goes everywhere because the dust collector is not 'really' big enough for the task. In my case and in my circumstances it simply 'helps' make cleanup a bit more easy. 

This would be a LOT worse if I moved this same exact DC over to the other side of the room / shop and then connected the two with rigid pipe going up and across the ceiling before dropping back down to connect to the saw. :yes:

ANY and ALL leaks you have in the pipes or connections will make things even worse. If you have not used any silicone at your joints - You *got* some airleaks going on there. You can blow some smoke around the fittings while the system is running to check for these possible leaks if you wish. You will notice right away if you have them and where they are with the smoke.

Very 'fine' dust like what a tablesaw makes is HEAVY in my experience. I use the cloth bags on my tablesaw DC and HATE trying to move them around to empty them when they get close to being full. If I was using plastic lower bags like you are in your pictures - They would have to be changed / replaced at 1/4 full or they would bust and make a big mess trying to move them around during servicing. The cloth bags can handle some serious weight during cleanings / changings and keep right on working for you with little in the way of maintenance or repairs. (nothing more than basic sewing kit needed)

In MY opinion - Your piping is set up for a 10 to 15 HP DC. Any more than that and you would need to think about pipe with silencers built in... :yes:


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*Dust Collection on a Table saw*

I have a Oneida V-3000 which is 1348 cfm and with the other machines blast gates closed and my table saw (almost) completely sealed I still get dust on the saw table top. The blade just slings too much chips and dust so effective control has to come from both cabinet venting and over the blade suction.

There has been a few discussions on here and some of the guys have very nice overhead dust collection. So answers to your table saw dust/chip concerns are multi dimensioned. Do a search for Table Saw overhead dust collection to see some of the excellent solutions presented on this forum.

Jack


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Doesn't matter how much cardboard and duct tape you put on a contractor saw, you're not going to prevent saw dust from the top of a saw. You can't suck the top from the bottom. Rip blades are coarse blades and typically make a mess. The amount of saw dust described is more a function of an improperly adjusted saw, cheap dull blade, or a combination of the 2.

Nice job on the piping, I'm jealous. We have plans to install something similar but for the time being we will have to live with the PVC piping in place. While your system could certainly benefit from a larger dc, it will work with what you have. You certainly don't need 10hp to make it work. And plastic bags are fine, we've been using them for years with no problems unless someone is too careless with them.


----------



## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

One way to improve table top dust collection is to bore several holes in your throat plate (away from the blade slot). With a zero clearance plate, there's precious little area for a DC to pull air through.


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

Dewood said:


> After much delay from what I feel was poor service from my local norfab distributer I have finally received my ductwork. I submitted a drawing of my self designed system to my local distributer and they put the order together and placed the order. The shipment arrived in 1 huge box strapped to a pallet about 2 weeks later. The snaplock clamp together system is very nice and makes making changes a snap. I installed most of the system myself but having a helper at least for the overhead runs was a must for me. I didn't bother including blast gates with my order as the norfab gates are 4 or 5 times the price as others. This ducting is pricy but I think its a good investment in my shop and should last a lifetime. Total cost of my ducting system was about $4K. So far I'm very pleased the system and cant wait to start my next project to put the system to a true test.


 nice job. we run quickfit also. love it.


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*Table saw closure*



wericha said:


> Doesn't matter how much cardboard and duct tape you put on a contractor saw, you're not going to prevent saw dust from the top of a saw. You can't suck the top from the bottom. Rip blades are coarse blades and typically make a mess. The amount of saw dust described is more a function of an improperly adjusted saw, cheap dull blade, or a combination of the 2.
> 
> Nice job on the piping, I'm jealous. We have plans to install something similar but for the time being we will have to live with the PVC piping in place. While your system could certainly benefit from a larger dc, it will work with what you have. You certainly don't need 10hp to make it work. And plastic bags are fine, we've been using them for years with no problems unless someone is too careless with them.


I think the posters table saw is a Powermatic Cabinet saw (not a contractors saw but, I could be wrong given the limited view). If it is a cabinet saw, Powermatic does make a plastic motor cover that fits quite tight (I have the 5 HP motor on my Model 66) and with a little metal tape around the edges the motor cover is tight. I also caulked between the floor and the saw base and used metal tape to seal other openings. I also sealed between the saw top and the base. I get pretty good flow around my blade and for enclosed cuts or dado cuts I get really good chip/dust extraction. However, a blade spinning at 3400 rpm's is going to fling chips/dust off no matter how much air is moving down into the cabinet. 

I think the others on here that have installed an additional top over the blade hood can attest to the overall efficiency. You have made a great start but, the table saw is one the biggest challenges for shop dust control.

Jack


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


>


 That's the motor hanging out the back of a contractor saw.

Sawdust flying up from the table is coming from the back side of the blade as it rotates up. Several things cause that such as the type and condition of the blade, alignment, condition of material, etc. No amount of suction under the table will control it, only an overhead shroud.


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*dust collection on a Table saw*

Well if it is a Contractors saw, the Powermatic web site shows those saws with a motor cover so one might be available.

While this will not totally solve your problem it is a start and I'm sure there are recommendations for building enclosures around contractor saws online. I've seen them but since I have a cabinet saw I didn't bookmark any. The major problem I think is still dust off of the spinning blade and no amount of cabinet or enclosure will eliminate that issue. 

Jack


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

jacko9 said:


> The major problem I think is still dust off of the spinning blade and no amount of cabinet or enclosure will eliminate that issue.
> 
> Jack


That was the point of my post to begin with.:thumbsup:


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*table saw closure*



wericha said:


> That was the point of my post to begin with.:thumbsup:


There have been post on this topic before;

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/dust-collection-contractor-saw-50328/

and the post I started asking the same question about overhead table saw dust collection;

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/table-saw-overhead-dust-collection-64120/

We Agree:thumbsup:

Jack


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

wericha said:


> Doesn't matter how much cardboard and duct tape you put on a contractor saw, you're not going to prevent saw dust from the top of a saw. You can't suck the top from the bottom. Rip blades are coarse blades and typically make a mess. The amount of saw dust described is more a function of an improperly adjusted saw, cheap dull blade, or a combination of the 2.
> 
> Nice job on the piping, I'm jealous. We have plans to install something similar but for the time being we will have to live with the PVC piping in place. While your system could certainly benefit from a larger dc, it will work with what you have. You certainly don't need 10hp to make it work. And plastic bags are fine, we've been using them for years with no problems unless someone is too careless with them.


Post up some pictures of *your* shop and the plastic bags! LOL! :laughing:


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

jacko9 said:


> I have a Oneida V-3000 which is 1348 cfm and with the other machines blast gates closed and my table saw (almost) completely sealed I still get dust on the saw table top. The blade just slings too much chips and dust so effective control has to come from both cabinet venting and over the blade suction.
> 
> There has been a few discussions on here and some of the guys have very nice overhead dust collection. So answers to your table saw dust/chip concerns are multi dimensioned. Do a search for Table Saw overhead dust collection to see some of the excellent solutions presented on this forum.
> 
> Jack


What you have is nice and more powerful than what the OP has. Guessing at least one or two HP more with the DC you have from the specs I saw online about it.

Here is a good video with a guy using a DC like yours with the overhead collection on the tablesaw as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0dJgNr9GTw

:thumbsup:


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Post up some pictures of *your* shop and the plastic bags! LOL! :laughing:


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:ROFLMAO.......I'll be happy to post a few pictures in the morning, I know you'd like to see what a real professional wood working shop looks like.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

In the meantime for folks that actually function in the 21st century, we use simple 3 mil plastic bags for our dust collectors. All the major manufacturers sell 3 mil bags, but the clear ones are significantly more expensive. Basic contractor bags are just as durable, and the black plastic is more affordable. Our primary dust collector is stationary, moving a dust collector around has a lot of inherent problems and we chose to set up a fixed system. The OP has a great foundation for his shop that will serve him well, despite the negative comments.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

wericha said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:ROFLMAO.......I'll be happy to post a few pictures in the morning, I know you'd like to see what a real professional wood working shop looks like.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
> .


 
Still waiting to see that thread... :smile:

(or ANY thread where you actually show some pictures of YOUR work for that matter)

I promise to give you an 'honest' opinion of your work. :yes:


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Still waiting to see that thread... :smile:
> 
> (or ANY thread where you actually show some pictures of YOUR work for that matter)
> 
> I promise to give you an 'honest' opinion of your work. :yes:


I would like to see your "professional shop" also

Jack


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Still waiting to see that thread... :smile:
> 
> (or ANY thread where you actually show some pictures of YOUR work for that matter)
> 
> I promise to give you an 'honest' opinion of your work. :yes:


Golly gee wilikers, I just can't wait to get your approval of all I do, it will just mean so much to me and my career.....:laughing:

The first picture shows 2 dust collectors, both of which have plastic bags. We've used plastic for years with little problems. The smaller dc is rolled around as it functions as our shop vac. The larger dc is stationary and connected to piping around the shop. On average the larger dc fills 3-4 bags a week.

The other pictures are a glance at the some of the rest of the shop; 2400 sq ft of shop space and 800 sq ft of office and showroom.


----------



## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

Umm... No. That is the free fan rating. If you want to know whar the system actually does calculate the static pressure, then check the fan curve. 



jacko9 said:


> I have a Oneida V-3000 which is 1348 cfm
> 
> Jack


----------



## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

UnisawGuy said:


> Umm... No. That is the free fan rating. If you want to know whar the system actually does calculate the static pressure, then check the fan curve.


I just put that number out there for refrence to compare to other total systems. It was the easiest number too find on the Oneida web site.

Jack


----------

