# High gloss poly advice needed



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

First off, Hello everyone. Just joined but probably should have for a long time since I have been reading this forum for awhile. But I need some advice and I am hoping not to get a million different answers. I run a business where I sell very small exotic wood boxes. I am the only one currently that puts a high gloss finish on them so that is a must. I also need to be able to turn these around quickly. I am not able to wait 30 days for a poly to cure. I have been using water based minwax poly. My trouble is that this still takes an incredibly long time if I do 10 boxes at a time. I am putting almost 10 hours in each box just finishing them..maybe more. I put about 10 coats on, sanding gently between each and then at the end coat I sand and wax and get my high gloss finish. First off, Even with 10 coats and I sand through all the time and hit wood. Why? Second, With the last coat I first sand with a sponge 220 (that is worn) and i can go straight to wax after that and still get gloss..how is this possible. everwhere I read says to sand up to at least a 1000 grit. And last. People have tried telling me to use canned spray poy (man0war). I tried and get a horrible orange peel. Is there a more effecient and quick way to get the same quality of high gloss but with less time. My plan is to pack on many layers of sanding sealer out of a can. Then do my water based poly finish? Will this help me avoid sanding through wood? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am starting my finish process in the next day or two.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

How are you applying the WB poly?













 







.


----------



## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

post deleted by Fred Hargis


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

First off, Welcome to the club.

I think your biggest problem is the water based finish. Every couple of years I try some to see if they've improved them and I still don't like them. I don't see how they will every overcome the fact that the finish having water in it will raise the grain of the wood making it too labor intensive for a manufacturer to use. If the goal is to put a nice looking finish that is not subjected to water and quick and easy, I would use lacquer. Lacquer is commonly used for furniture finishes however it is not as hard and durable as polyurethane. With lacquer you could finish your boxes in the morning and have them deliverable that evening. They would be dry enough to handle and use however they would emit odors for a week, some brands of lacquer much longer. The biggest drawback is humid weather. In very humid weather you can't use it. The finish dries so fast it traps water in the finish and turns it white. They make solvents that slow the drying time down however they really only help when it is a little humid. The most common lacquer is a nitrocellous lacquer. You would start with a coat or two of lacquer sanding sealer sanding between coats and then topcoat with gloss. A better and harder lacquer is a catalyzed lacquer. With that finish you would use a vinyl sealer to seal the wood first. Anything put on wood will raise the grain however the sanding sealer or vinyl sealer won't raise the grain anywhere near what a water based finish will so there isn't so much sanding between coats. If you are wanting a better quality finish then I would use an oil based polyurethane. It does take much more time to finish however it doesn't take a month. I use Wood Classics polyurethane varnish from Sherwin Williams. With this product in reasonable conditions you can put a coat of finish on in a 24 hour period. You should be able to achieve the finish you need in two or three coats. The finish would be cured enough to use overnight. This finish is also used for floors and is fully usable for that in 3 days. Of course like lacquer it will emit fumes for a week or so after finishing it.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

bbulich said:


> i can go straight to wax after that and still get gloss..


If you are using wax to get the high gloss, why are you starting with poly?

Turners use wax a lot, but I have not seen where any of them use poly as an undercoat.

Have you looked at Shellawax products?

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...e_Code=packard&Category_Code=finish-shellawax

The EEE-Ultra Shine is intended to polish the wood, so is a preparatory step.

Shellawax Cream alone may well provide the high gloss finish you desire.

These are intended to be used on a lathe, but you can achieve the desired friction just by buffing.


----------



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

This finish must be high gloss and very very durable as this "box" is handled all day long. Also the smell the finish puts out is going to be a problem since it is used directly near the face. This is the problem at hand. I use wax because off the brush the high gloss looks horrible. its impossible to put high gloss water based on perfectly so I wax it up and its back to high gloss. These boxes may be dropped and are picked up all day constantly. I really really apprecaite the help and trust me I have searched for answers for a long time before posting. I like the ideas but I do not think they will work. Some guy was looking at my product and telling me how much time I was wasting and told me that will a spar poly spray I could finish a box in no time. I tried spraying..got horrible results but thought hey I can sand this down then wax it up. I got completely different results than with my waterbased. It was not high gloss at all


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Commercial shops use 2k urethane or polyester for high gloss jobs these days. Even the piano guys all use polyester unless it is a vintage job that requires lacquer.

The reason is cure time. If I spray a 2k urethane and put it in my curing oven at 55 degrees centigrade, I can buff it out next day. (same day if I'm in a big hurry) 

Polyester is used as a sealer to fill the grain. Even open pore wood like oak can be filled in just 1 day. Cure overnight, sand flat, spray 2k urethane gloss. If you don't have a curing oven then it is advisable to wait a week to allow the finish to shrink back before wet sanding.

The reason your wax didn't give you a proper gloss with the spray is that the correct way to get a high gloss polish is to wet sand up to 1500 grit and then use buffing compounds (not wax) to get the final gloss. Automotive painters do this process every day.

The bad news is these are NOT products you apply in your garage or basement. They must be applied in a proper spray professional spray booth and a respirator at least must be worn.

For your application if you wish to use waterborne products Target Coatings makes an excellent product. It is a one part co-polymer Em 9000.

Target Coatings also has a Finishers Forum and Jeff Weiss makes himself available to answer any questions. I normally don't care for water based products, but for a high gloss job I would use this product.


----------



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

well rick..let me ask you something. If you think that I did not achieve a high gloss because I did not use the right compound would a spray spar do the job for my application. That water based just dries so incredibly quick and seems pretty durable that I do not know what to use. I want to look into the product you listed rick..I appreciate the advice


----------



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

if I use the em9000 should I use a shellac sealer with it...but in the end, this is just a different material which will probably take the same amount of time, only difference is that it might be more durable. So this may not be the direction i need to go in


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I wouldn't use a spar type finish as it's oil base and takes longer to dry than a straight varnish. It could take weeks, and still never get really hard. It's not supposed to. 

I wouldn't use wax for any part of the finishing. Whatever is achieved with it is just temporary and does nothing for abrasive protection. As for waterbased finishes, they all like to be sprayed in thin applications. I don't find the flash time an impediment as the finish isn't affected by overspray. You can get a much better "off the gun" finish with spraying than you can with any brush.

Target Coatings EM 9000 is very good. You might try Parks Pro Finisher, available at HD. There is a catalyst for it. It's durable enough for flooring.

But, in the end, if you want a fast one coat (or two) high gloss finish that needs no rubbing out, try a two component epoxy. I'm referring to the type for bar tops. You don't need to spray it, and you have no overspray requiring a spray booth. 









 







.


----------



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

the epoxy sounds intriguing..high gloss, fast..whats the downside.can I brush it on?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

bbulich said:


> the epoxy sounds intriguing..high gloss, fast..whats the downside.can I brush it on?


You could brush it on, kind of spread it over the area. Most epoxies are self leveling. There are a few good sources...
http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...?pid=1003&familyName=System+Three+Mirror+Coat
.
http://www.ebondepoxies.com/ (#1225)
.
http://bartopepoxy.com/









 







.


----------



## bbulich (Jul 22, 2012)

I would have to do each side separately correct..?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

bbulich said:


> I would have to do each side separately correct..?


Not necessarily. You can brush on the sides first and then pour on the top and let it run down the sides. The directions for the products detail how to do that.









 







.


----------

