# Cross laminated timber workbench top



## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Since I made a poor choice of 2x3s for my bench top, I have decided make another top for my bench. This time, I am planning on making a 2 or 3 layer cross laminated top using 2x6s, not unlike this:










Thoughts?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

This begs the question ... should I use 1x or 2x material? 2 layers of 2x material would be 3" thick, but I think the real benefit with cross lamination comes from at least 3 layers. That would make a 4 1/2" thick top, which would probably be overkill.

Or I could use 1x material, and build up a 3" thick top with 4 layers. 3 layers would net 2 1/4", which I guess would be pretty dang strong as well.

Or I could to a hybrid thing with 2 layers of 1x on the top and bottom, and 2x material in the middle, making a 3" thick top.

If YOU were doing this for YOUR top, what would YOU do?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Please disregard if this is outside the context of how you work on a bench...but if I may suggest:

I have, at this stage in the game, perhap mill/hewn, designed, and/or helped other make perhaps several hundred or more benches of various types over the decades...All traditional. Workbenches and Shaving Horses seem to be the first things folks make that start contemplating traditional woodworking modalities.

I suggest making what I euphemistically call...a real work bench!!...ha, ha.

Get yourself one of the workbench making books and/or follow some of the stuff that Christopher Schwarz (et al) are up to in this area.

Secure a big old chunk (the largest you can handle) of Oak, or any species almost for that matter...though some are better for others if new to all this...an make yourself a proper Workbench...You'll love it, that I can promise!!...that is if you enjoy hand tools and traditionally working with wood. Even my friends that are more into...machining wood...typically have one of these in the corner of there shop and use them regularly...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jay, that is essentially what I am currently doing ... I am have built Nicholson bench. I have the legs, aprons and top built and put together. The thing is very stiff, and pretty heavy, and I am starting to use it.

For the top, I laminated 17 2x3s together, in 2 sections, one of 8 boards, the other of 9 boards, and the center board is a piece of douglas fir. That is what is on there right now. But I am not happy with it for multiple reasons, the main reason is the thickness, or lack thereof. I don't want to move on to adding the vise until I have a top that I am happy with.

So I am going to make another top. For some reason, I am drawn to this cross laminated timber approach, because it just feels like a really strong and dimensionally stable design that should be fairly easy to build. Perhaps it is overkill, but it will give me a serious top that will be able to withstand whatever I subject it to.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> I am have built Nicholson bench...


Excellent Choice...and your correct, like most of these type Work Benches (and Traditional Butcher Blocks also) the thicker you can make them...the better they tend to work and longer they last...



Chris Curl said:


> For the top, I laminated 17 2x3s together, in 2 sections, one of 8 boards, the other of 9 boards, and the center board is a piece of douglas fir. That is what is on there right now. But I am not happy with it for multiple reasons, the main reason is the thickness, or lack thereof. I don't want to move on to adding the vise until I have a top that I am happy with.


Some are happy with these "glued up" tops...seldom to they last, and once they switch to a more traditional top...I have known of none to go back...



> So I am going to make another top. For some reason, I am drawn to this cross laminated timber approach, because it just feels like a really strong and dimensionally stable design that should be fairly easy to build. Perhaps it is overkill, but it will give me a serious top that will be able to withstand whatever I subject it to.


If you do go with a "glue up"...Make that sucker as thick as you possibly can!

I can share that just going to a Tree Service company near you and asking for a section of Oak log will give you all you need in a great top that will last generations...and probably with less effort. I have made these with folks with little more than my layout tools, Chain saw, Scrub Plan, and then Smoother, and a few Chisels..It takes about 3 hours tops from log to jointed and mounted on leg assembly...

Either way...post photos of your progress and thanks...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I was at my local HD today, and they have these 5/4 boards that look really nice. They are 1 1/8" thick, and if I use a 1x board in the middle with 2 5/4 boards on the top and bottom, then I would end up with a 3" thick top, which is the thickness I feel good about.

The other nice feature of the 5/4 stuff is that the edges are NOT rounded off, and the faces are already smoothed, so that saves time and effort preparing them for gluing.

The opening is 27", and the center piece is 1 1/2" douglas fir, so I need 25 1/2" total width in two separate pieces, or 12 3/4" width for each half. If I use one 5/4x8 (7 1/4" wide) and one 5/4x6 (5 1/2" wide), that gives me 12 3/4" wide for each side. As it turns out, for two halves, that gives exactly the 25 1/2" I need.

So my plan is to cross laminate 3 layers ... the outside layers will be 5/4x(6 and 8), and the inside layer will be all 1x8 material.

Am I making a huge mistake?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> Am I making a huge mistake?


Gosh Brother...???...Mistake...I don't think that would be what I would call it?

If you like this type of bench top, I say go for it...You'll be the best judge of the outcome.

I can't really expand on my recommendations more than I have. Your top will not last nearly as long, I could almost promise that, and will take much more time to make in the long run (I think?) compared to a more traditional system...I would also add that our cut of point on thickness minimum for even a bench top considered "lite" would be a 150mm (~6") top thickness I have gone as deep as 300mm with happy results. 75mm (~3") is more a...Work Table.... in most traditional shops I haunt...not a bench per se...

My teachers always said if you can move your bench without great effort...its not a bench but a table...and too light for proper work...

Cheers,

j


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Gosh Brother...???...Mistake...I don't think that would be what I would call it?
> 
> If you like this type of bench top, I say go for it...You'll be the best judge of the outcome.


At this point in my life, given my wife's objections to what I have already done, it is the best option I have.


Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I can't really expand on my recommendations more than I have. Your top will not last nearly as long, I could almost promise that, and will take much more time to make in the long run (I think?) compared to a more traditional system...I would also add that our cut of point on thickness minimum for even a bench top considered "lite" would be a 150mm (~6") top thickness I have gone as deep as 300mm with happy results. 75mm (~3") is more a...Work Table.... in most traditional shops I haunt...not a bench per se...


6" thick is "light"? Holy crap!

Advice taken ... new plan ... all 2x6s. That will net a top that is 4 1/2" thick. That mother will be about the heaviest I can see myself being able to handle.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey Chris,

Sorry...my last post had all kinds of typos...

3" to 4" is considered...too lightweight...6" is considered a minimum thickness...but that's more a traditional standard of guidance...

Ah...Wives...Yes that is part of the equation sometimes...Isn't it?

Look forward to following along...

If this is softwood then resurfacing the top will be easier, but my be more frequent perhaps...It's a trade off...


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## tylerdru90 (Aug 17, 2016)

So I gotta ask is wood movement an issue when doing a cross lamination like this? 


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

tylerdru90 said:


> So I gotta ask is wood movement an issue when doing a cross lamination like this?


Short answer (from my experience) it can be...and often is.

Tyler, in my experience (again) that is really a tough one to ask in such a generic way...Not that my reply is easy...ha, ha.

Plywood, by its nature is a Cross Lamination...and so is OSB as well. The old adage that, *"wood moves and we can't stop,"* is true...Yet we can understand it and compensate for it.

Nevertheless, it does beg the question, of which way does the wood move, and has the producer/creator of the CL, OSB or related system taken into account the species, dryness, thickness, grain orientation, and type of glue into consideration when developing the Lamination...no matter what type of Lamination it is?

These all are very important factors. Not knowing them and understanding them...*extremely well*...will indeed lead to issues and challenges in unwanted movement just because of the old adage...*"wood moves, and we can't stop it."*


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

"So I gotta ask is wood movement an issue when doing a cross lamination like this?"

Most likely it will be. Framing lumber isn't dried to the same standards as finish lumber. If you are lucky it will be about 19%. 11-12% would be the best range for softwood to be used in a heated environment. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't do it. Too much $ and effort for the level of risk. If you do use framing lumber, make sure you face it so you get a good glue line. It rarely comes flat enough. I would not cross grain it, builds in too much stress.

I've got an excellent German work bench made well over 50 years ago. It is still very good. Made from Beech. Are you going to put waist and tail vices on your bench so you can use bench dogs? The tail vice is 22" long and has 4 dog slots, the top has dog slots at about 6"' O.C. Each slot is about 3/4 X 1 1/14" but metric. The steel dogs fit into the 4" thick top and are held in place by their spring strips. If I was to make the mortises for a new top I would do it by gluing up layers of hardwood with the slots the thickness of the board and the opening held by spacers to be removed after glue up. With this configuration the dogs press against the end grain of the hardwood which is the most resistant direction to deformation. 

My top is 25 X 79 with a 6 1/2" wide recess for tools, etc. along the back edge. They made a slopping end so you can brush the dirt out easily at the end of projects. The top is made from heavy planks that have been edge glued together. They could also be made from thinner face glued hardwood. PS, German beech is widely distributed in the USA. But I suspect you will need an account with a distribution yard, not Home D. Red maple would be a good substitute. 

I personally wouldn't make a work bench W/O the bench dogs. With out them it is just a work table.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Bottom line...I think with Chris's current presentation to attention in detail with the work he seems to be doing, and posting here about...I think his bench will work just fine...

I would also point out again...Traditional benches are typically made of large slabs (often halved logs) of Oak, Beech and sometime Maple (but rarely as it is too reactive unless quarter sawn slab...*AND the wood is GREEN!!! not dried...*


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Chris Curl said:


> This begs the question ... should I use 1x or 2x material? 2 layers of 2x material would be 3" thick, but I think the real benefit with cross lamination comes from at least 3 layers. That would make a 4 1/2" thick top, which would probably be overkill.
> 
> Or I could use 1x material, and build up a 3" thick top with 4 layers. 3 layers would net 2 1/4", which I guess would be pretty dang strong as well.
> 
> ...


A 2" thick plywood top under braced with 2x4 or 2x6 lumber, and sitting on 4x4 legs should be sturdy enough for most woodworking. Going over 2" does not allow you to use normal 3" to 4" C-clamps on the top, which you might need sometimes for holding stock. I think a top thicker than 3" is overkill for woodworking.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> A 2" thick plywood top under braced with 2x4 or 2x6 lumber, and sitting on 4x4 legs should be sturdy enough for most woodworking.


Yes...as a work surface perhaps on a table...Not an actual woodworking Workbench.



Jig_saw said:


> Going over 2" does not allow you to use normal 3" to 4" C-clamps on the top, which you might need sometimes for holding stock.


C-Clamps...???

If this is the primary mode of clamping work in a given shop, then I would fully agree with thinner top, and clearly this is something more intended for a "Wood Machinist" workshop perhaps?

C-Clamps are not a traditional Woodworkers venue choice for clamping wood, as they are a more cumbersome choice than more traditional holding systems. Additionally, planing wood stock alone would push a lightweight table all over the place, as they just are not robust enough for most standard hand tool work...

Chris's current design is a nice mix of approaches providing him with a less massive bench, where he can still manage to move the thing without help, yet still thick and sold enough to employ Holdfasts and related traditional clamping systems...

I don't believe I have ever used a C-Clamp in woodworking, but I suppose if that is all one has they would suffice? We use them all the time in metal work, which I believe is their original intended application historically?




Jig_saw said:


> I think a top thicker than 3" is overkill for woodworking.


History would disagree with that viewpoint...considering the mean average is between 4" and 8"...often after decades (even centuries) of being resurfaced...


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Well, I guess a workbench is one's personal choice. I use mine for both woodworking (sawing, chiseling, planing) as well as metal working, so it is not solely a woodworking bench. The top is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood on a 1" thick door, and legs are heavy 6" logs cross braced with iron rods. I have pounded on it with sledgehammers and used big jointer planes (including a self-built one with 65 mm wide iron), but it does not move. The top is only 2-1/2" thick.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> Well, I guess a workbench is one's personal choice. I use mine for both woodworking (sawing, chiseling, planing) as well as metal working, so it is not solely a woodworking bench.


And in the context Jig_saw...that make perfect sense. Using a work surface that way would (I agree) warrant a much thinner top...



Jig_saw said:


> The top is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood on a 1" thick door, and legs are heavy 6" logs cross braced with iron rods.


That sounds pretty robust, and seems to have a really solid undercarriage which must indeed give it mass.



Jig_saw said:


> I have pounded on it with sledgehammers and used big jointer planes (including a self-built one with 65 mm wide iron), but it does not move. The top is only 2-1/2" thick.


That speaks to your most correct observation above...Workbenches...(or Work Tables by definition) are are very much a personal choice.

I wager if I did (or some of the folks I work with did) their work on your bench it would get moved and push as we work...yet some of these monsters are 6'5" (plus) and through timber and stone around all day...ha, ha.

It is a personal work system...no doubt...

I have to be careful with just my chiseling as one example alone as my lightest Metal Chisel Mallet is 750 grams (that is for light bench work) and my "day to day" standard is a 3lb Carvers Mallet or Sledge...used for our stone and timber framing alike...

Some of my benches in the past had to also hold up to tonnage on them from stone or timber...It is a spectrum...No doubt...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I want my top to be more like 4 1/2" thick, at the very least, 3". I intend to use primarily holdfasts and dogs on this bench. It will have either a face or leg vise, not sure which flavor yet. I am also considering maybe embedding a t-track in the future for more options to hold things down, but that is currently not part of the plan.

Hardwood would be more desirable than pine, but I also need to be able to get it easily at a place like Home Depot or Lowes, and it can't break the bank.

So now I am considering 4 or more layers of plywood, the top layer being a nice hardwod ply. That essentially checks all the above boxes, but it is ply, not solid wood, which is a downside. I realize that it is not a traditional top, but it feels like a pretty good compromise to me.

For a CLT pine top, I am looking at about $90 for a 4 1/2" thich top made from 2x6s.

For a glue-laminated pine top, I am looking at about $90 for a 5" thich top,also made from 2x6s.

If I drop the length down to 79", I can get 2 layers from a single 4'x8' sheet of ply. Then, 3 sheets of ply would net about 4 1/2" of thickness. That would run about $90

For a 8' ply top, I would need 1 1/2 more sheets, which would increase the cost to closer to $130.

So ... laminated pine or plywood?


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Chris Curl said:


> So ... laminated pine or plywood?


Ply would be my choice (cost effective, stronger, and no movement issues).


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

> I want my top to be more like 4 1/2" thick, at the very least, 3". I intend to use primarily holdfasts and dogs on this bench.


More than doable and a excellent concert of holding systems...



> It will have either a face or leg vise, not sure which flavor yet.


Make it with both...you won't regret it...I don't believe?



> I am also considering maybe embedding a t-track in the future for more options to hold things down, but that is currently not part of the plan.


One of my teachers had something like this in both the front and the back of his bench (which was well over 120 years old)...I have never seen anything like it sense except in modern aluminum tracking.

This addition would just make the bench that much more serviceable...I have strongly considered adding these to my next big bench...



> Hardwood would be more desirable than pine, but I also need to be able to get it easily at a place like Home Depot or Lowes, and it can't break the bank.


I travel quite a bit Chris...From Texas to New England and the Midwest as well.

I haven't found an area yet that doesn't have Tree Companies and Custom Sawyers...

You could just as easily get your wood from them in full dimension and plane it down to a uniform dimension...That way you can actually select the exact grain pattern you wish to have from "heart center" to "quarter sawn." 

If you would like to use hardwood...



> So now I am considering 4 or more layers of plywood, the top layer being a nice hardwood ply.


Or...that works too, but is probably more expensive cost wise but less work to process...Maybe???



> That essentially checks all the above boxes, but it is ply, not solid wood, which is a downside.


Depends on grade...

I'm not against Ply material in some applications. I just try to get the best the budget can support or that I want...Cheap Plywood is worthless...



> I realize that it is not a traditional top, but it feels like a pretty good compromise to me.


For your shop Chris and intended application, it sound just fine, and as Jig_Saw pointed out, it's a personal fit like a good boot...



> So ... laminated pine or plywood?


I like the laminated pine, but only if the wood is Selected and exactly Heart Center clear or Quarter Sawn (first choice of this type of wood) then a hardwood plywood lamination to the top and bottom...But that's me, if I when this route and had to use a Box Store...

I just know the work involved in both choices here, and still would just get a big old chunk of wood and start working it down...Then timber frame my leg and apron assembly in some traditional format that strikes my fancy at the time of design and construction...

Both (in the end) will probably have the same amount of work into them, accept the materials for the latter usually cost me zero dollars, and should be less money for you as well...Just a thought again about a solid wood system, but I'm silly about being a traditionalist sometimes...ha, ha...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*cross laminiation may be an issue*

Why not just use your 2 X 6's measuring 5 1/4" or so, you can rip them to 4 1/2" if you wish, and just laminate them side by side AND BE DONE WITH IT?

*No need then to worry about cross laminations moving and cracking apart.
*
To me a 4" thick bench with that construction will be great, heavy enough and thick enough for anything you'll ever do. My bench is 2 1/2 thick laminated Maple and it's more than I can lift easily.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> Ply would be my choice (cost effective, stronger, and no movement issues).


I agree...Plywood would be a good choice also...of Chris's selected ideas thus far...

I could suggest that "stronger and no movement" really isn't always the case with plywoods...

They do not hold up over time compared to solid wood Workbenches...Not that I have seen anyway?? They delaminated (always with time) and don't take to resurfacing and/or beating on them nearly as well...

Just an observation of both systems from my experience...but for DIY use (not professional) a plywood laminated bench should more than last and work well...


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I agree...Plywood would be a good choice also...of Chris's selected ideas thus far...
> 
> I could suggest that "stronger and no movement" really isn't always the case with plywoods...
> 
> They do not hold up over time compared to solid wood Workbenches...Not that I have seen anyway?? They delaminated (always with time) and don't take to resurfacing and/or beating on them nearly as well...


Thank you for your comments, Jay C!

Yes, I agree that cheap plywood (depending upon its quality) could be weaker than laminated softwood (like pine) of same thickness, but I hope we are talking here about high grade, weatherproofed ply. Movement is really never an issue with good quality plywood (at least I have never seen it, and I live in an area prone to large humidity variations). I think Chris is going to use screws to rigidly join the several boards of ply one over the other, so I don't see delamination happening in that case. And resurfacing would just require replacing the top most ply with a new one (something you can't do with cross laminated wood, which must be glued).

These are remarks based upon my limited experience ( I am certainly not a professional like you)


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_Saw said:


> ...Movement is really never an issue with good quality plywood...


Hmmm...???...I'm prone to agree with that I believe, and part of the reason there is an industry behind its manufacture...especially in the Marine Industry and its application there. It this application, and type form, it is exceptionally stable and movement is measured in fractions of millimeters...

I would also point out that by its nature...GOOD...plywood (is there such a thing as good plywood..??...ha, ha) it is a quarter saw laminated veneer material...Ergo, if it does move it is predominantly (if not completely) only moving in the direction of thickness...Which I believe has been Jig_Saw's perspective all along...not just "cheap crap ply" from some box store...



Jig_Saw said:


> I think Chris is going to use screws to rigidly join the several boards of ply one over the other, so I don't see delamination happening in that case.


Yikes...!!!...I must have missed that...!!!

I strongly advise against it. Mechanical fasteners are simply not necessary unless only for temporary application of clamping and holding. 

I can share, that a trick to strengthening such laminated wood projects, that if hardware is employed to hold fast the different layers during construction and clamping...that when they are extracted afterwards the lamination can be strengthened by drilling these small holes out and replacing the core from where the screw/lag was with a hardwood straight grained dowel...This greatly offered additional cross lateral stability to the lamination, in the same way that relish on the end of Through Wedged Tenon can be enhanced by the addition of trunnel...



> And resurfacing would just require replacing the top most ply with a new one (something you can't do with cross laminated wood, which must be glued).


I agree that a new layer of ply can be added...

I am under the idea that Chris intends on full adhesive lamination of all layers...Unless I am mistaken...???



> These are remarks based upon my limited experience ( I am certainly not a professional like you)


As I tell clients and student alike Jig_Saw...Correct, incorrect, or simply a "searching of understanding"...all perspectives have merit and should be shared, or none of us can learn...All voices (dissenting or otherwise) should be respectfully listened to and contemplated for some kernel of merit...if only to make one think more deeply themselves...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> Why not just use your 2 X 6's measuring 5 1/4" or so, you can rip them to 4 1/2" if you wish, and just laminate them side by side AND BE DONE WITH IT?
> 
> *No need then to worry about cross laminations moving and cracking apart.
> *
> To me a 4" thick bench with that construction will be great, heavy enough and thick enough for anything you'll ever do. My bench is 2 1/2 thick laminated Maple and it's more than I can lift easily.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know ...  

It is just that my last attempt to do that (albeit with 2x3s) ended so badly with twisting and was such a headache to fix, that I was hoping to avoid that result again. I guess I'm gun-shy now. That said, I think I understand how my method of laminating the boards contributed to such a poor result. If I did it again, I believe this time it would be better.


Jay C. White Cloud said:


> More than doable and a excellent concert of holding systems...
> I just know the work involved in both choices here, and still would just get a big old chunk of wood and start working it down...Then timber frame my leg and apron assembly in some traditional format that strikes my fancy at the time of design and construction...
> 
> Both (in the end) will probably have the same amount of work into them, accept the materials for the latter usually cost me zero dollars, and should be less money for you as well...Just a thought again about a solid wood system, but I'm silly about being a traditionalist sometimes...ha, ha...


So I started looking for sawmills in my area, and I came across a lumber wholesaler who has kids who went to school with my kids. I called them, and talked to my son's old schoolmate (who was also a good friend of his). He said that there are not many sawmills on the east coast, and that they get their lumber from the west coast. I really doubt he would give me bad information. 

So Jay, if you can point me to a place in or near Silver Spring MD like the kind of place where you say you can get your free wood, please point me to it, thanks.

Short of that, I guess I'll start picking through the 2x6 and/or 2x10 boards at HD and try to find planks with an end-grain that looks quarter-sawn ... and do a straight lengthwise lamination again. I bet HD only deals with plain-sawn stuff, but even then, a few of the boards from a plain-sawn process have good grain orientation, don't they?

Or does it not matter that much, since I will be laminating 18 of these mothers together and that in and of itself will ensure that the thing stays straight over the years?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jig_saw said:


> ... I think Chris is going to use screws to rigidly join the several boards of ply one over the other ...


No screws here ... or if so, only to hold it together until the glue dries, at which point I would remove them.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Chris Curl said:


> No screws here ... or if so, only to hold it together until the glue dries, at which point I would remove them.


Why no screws? Screws will attach the top much more rigidly. Glued ply boards can delaminate and are thus not going to last very long.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> Why no screws? Screws will attach the top much more rigidly. Glued ply boards can delaminate and are thus not going to last very long.


Not really Jig_Saw...and the screws can damage tools if struck...Not to mention the doweling that can be done if really necessary...Which I wouldn't do unless dealing with a lower grade plywood...

Chris, I'm responding now to your questions...give me a few minutes...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jig_saw said:


> Why no screws? Screws will attach the top much more rigidly. Glued ply boards can delaminate and are thus not going to last very long.


Mainly because then I run the risk of hitting an embedded screw when drilling dog holes.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Not really Jig_Saw...and the screws can damage tools if struck...Not to mention the doweling that can be done if really necessary...Which I wouldn't do unless dealing with a lower grade plywood...


Jay C. I am talking about countersunk screws. No tools will ever strike the screws. It is basic stuff. Use a Forstner bit to drill slightly loose holes for screwtops to completely sink in. I have seen plenty of woodworking benches with plywood tops attached with countersunk screws.

If you want to hide the screws, you can use 3/8" dowells to cover the counterunk holes. I did this in my workbench top.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Chris Curl said:


> Mainly because then I run the risk of hitting an embedded screw when drilling dog holes.


There is no risk of that since it is clear where the screws are. Dog holes will be separate from screw holes.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Chris said:


> It is just that my last attempt to do that (albeit with 2x3s) ended so badly with twisting and was such a headache to fix, that I was hoping to avoid that result again. I guess I'm gun-shy now. That said, I think I understand how my method of laminating the boards contributed to such a poor result. If I did it again, I believe this time it would be better.


I think it would be too Chris...For one thing you will pay better attention to wood grain orientation, and quality.

Further, the use of a truly "structural adhesive" can make a huge difference...as can (not yet mentioned)...

Cross doweling the 2x stock,

Addition of cloth layer between the material members can add tension stability...And look cool too!

Jointing the stock extremely well for better lamination.



Chris said:


> So I started looking for sawmills in my area, and I came across a lumber wholesaler...He said that there are not many sawmills on the east coast...I really doubt he would give me bad information.


Wow...Hmmm...well...???...bad information...No I don't think so, just very highly miss informed perhaps...???

Just think of it this way Chris...If what he was telling you (or thinks himself perhaps) was even remotely true...I wouldn't be business or existence...ha, ha.

But seriously I own two sawmills currently myself (with many more at my disposal)and have owned (or help operated) just about every type in existence from doing traditional "pit" (or tiller) milling as a kid/young man...all the way to owning and operating a "swingblade" mill not far from you in Gettysburg Pa area which has some great mill just around it that helped me build my timber frames during that time...

So, in short...I think perhaps he is just a wee bit misinformed perhaps? Or maybe (??) think only in some narrow parameters of how he understands wood, which I bet good money is all kiln dried and processed wood or he's just a log broker perhaps...???

If you just check around Orrtanna Pa for some Pallet Mills you can get some great wood. There not far from you, and visiting these places can be educational and enjoyable by themselves for woodworkers...



Chris said:


> So Jay, if you can point me to a place in or near Silver Spring MD like the kind of place where you say you can get your free wood, please point me to it, thanks.


I'm gonna keep looking for you Chris...

In the interim, reach out to Woodmizer (list of sawyers from Woodmizer in Maryland can be found here, and a list of Sawyers from Delaware can be found here, and Pennsylvania here) for a list of local custom Sawyers, there are well over two does just in Maryland alone that I have known over the years...The lists provided are barely a tip of the iceburg in Saw Mills and Sawyers still oerpating...So I really don't know where your friend go the notion we don't exisit...How does his business run if he only ships from out West...??



> I bet HD only deals with plain-sawn stuff, but even then, a few of the boards from a plain-sawn process have good grain orientation, don't they?


Not always, but you might find some quarter sawn...I have. 

I also thought about you laminating some "Liquid Lumberdators" (ha, ha) stuff together. I know a few tables and workbenches made of "tiger strand bamboo" these things are monster of toughness and rival anything made of solid trunk wood for strength...They are beasts!!!



> Or does it not matter that much, since I will be laminating 18 of these mothers together and that in and of itself will ensure that the thing stays straight over the years?


Hmmm...I can't really say Chris...I do know that when I don't pay attention to wood grain..."Things tend to not go as planned"...let us say...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> There is no risk of that since it is clear where the screws are. Dog holes will be separate from screw holes.


Sure...a·ha...??...Heard that numerous times...and everytime I (or others) have worked on a surface like this...a tool edge gets nicked...

Sorry...Uh Uh...not near my tools...

This is just my experience as a hand tool woodworker...We don't mixed "metal" anywhere near our tool edges (even saws that could go near them) that we can't plainly see and that is really freaking huge like a Holdfast or Dog...



Jig_saw said:


> Jay C. I am talking about countersunk screws. No tools will ever strike the screws. It is basic stuff. Use a Forstner bit to drill slightly loose holes for screwtops to completely sink in. I have seen plenty of woodworking benches with plywood tops attached with countersunk screws.
> 
> If you want to hide the screws, you can use 3/8" dowells to cover the counterunk holes. I did this in my workbench top.


And all that Jig_Saw brings us back to one of the old adages I try to avoid..."making things work" when there are better more tradtional systems to employ first...Like build a realy Workbench...

I believe all that can be done...but why?...It's simply not a necessity nor does it make the tabletop stronger, even if of plywood. The Trunnel would do a better job of it all and actually be stronger...That's why certain types/forms of ship decking and/or bulkhead planking are laminated with trunnell...NEVER!!!...hearware...its just not as strong...So if I was to get a drill out to counter skink a plug over a screw head (??) I would just drill all the way through and dowel or tree nail it...


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Sure...a·ha...??...Heard that numerous times...and everytime I (or others) have worked on a surface like this...a tool edge gets nicked...
> 
> Sorry...Uh Uh...not near my tools...
> 
> ...


How will your tools hit any screws buried 1/2" deep into the top? Jay C., sometimes I wonder ...

Hey Chris, here are some real tips from Chris Schwarz about avoiding the common mistakes in building a workbench (too many dog holes is one of them):

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/w...hwarz-blog/mistakes-first-time-bench-builders


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> How will your tools hit any screws buried 1/2" deep into the top? Jay C., sometimes I wonder ...


First, Great Link to Chris's stuff...He just release a great tome on the Roman Workbench and facilitates great discussions on this topic...A fantastic resource on the subject...


As to plugging the screws...again, just not an improvement compared to a more tradtional "all wood" system.

Second...(there are more where this came from)...

Student saws into bench top and shears off teeth of saw....Seen that happen more than once on garage built tables and benches with hidden hardware...

Scrub plane (hands of novice) gouge top and hit hardware...etc. etc...

Again...Screws don't add anything here that can't be done in a more effective way...just saying...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK, guys ....*

There's more than one right way, just like there's more than one wrong way. To each his own. This discussion is getting a bit long winded ...... just sayin':smile3:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jig_saw said:


> There is no risk of that since it is clear where the screws are. Dog holes will be separate from screw holes.


I disagree ... I would be gluing and screwing up to 6 layers together, one layer at a time, so there would be many hidden screws underneath the top layer that would not be visible.

We must be thinking of 2 different approaches to putting it together.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Sorry WoodnThings...I'm not meaning to suggest anything..."right or wrong"...about anyones perspective...Apologies for any that take it that way...

I think a lot of good info has filtered through relatively effectively...

I think Jig_Saw's ideas are worth thinking about (as I said earlier) and defending a position on something is standard in academia, so apologies for any that don't care for that format of written (or oral) communication. I like the fact that Jig_Saw (et al) can so thoroughly share their perspects while still listening to others...Thanks for that...

I agree Chris...That's what I was thinking as well...as the alternative would be clamping it all up...then using really long screws...which in turn brings me back to...why metal when tree nails would be better...if one even wishes (or needs) this added securing...

It's your OP, tell me to be still and I shall if I belabor things too much...

Did the Sawyer list give you more to think about and look at?

At least for future projects, you might be able to find some new and less expensive wood sources...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

It's all good. I think it has been a good discussion with an open and respectful debate of different approaches to making my goal a reality.

To recap, I am abandoning the CTL idea, and will start picking through 2x6 SPF planks at my local HD, looking for planks that have a good quarter-sawn pattern. I will rip the rounded edges off resulting in 5" planks, and I will try to do a better job of glue-laminating them the "normal" way. 

And I think this time it will be a straight top, not a split Nicholson-style top.

The biggest problem will be staying off the wife's radar ... !

Re the sawyer list, thanks. I'll contact a few of the closest ones and see if I can visit them over my lunch break.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I built my bench from SYP. I bought Christopher Schwarz's "Workbenches" book, studied it, chose the Roubo, then studied that again. I followed his tips (such as buying 2x12's & 2x10's) & guidance. The book was worth the price. The bench was one of the first things I built, & one of the easiest if you don't count the physical exertion of manipulating the laminations. The bench has a 4" top & 5" sq legs. It is heavy as ... just seems to get harder with age. I occasionally dose it with Watco Danish Oil.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That is sweeeeet!*

Hope Chris follows your example and chooses this method of construction as well. It's beauty!:yes:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

That is a beautiful bench indeed.

Mine is more of an Nicholson style, with the aprons and legs that are 4 1/2" square. As you can probably see, the top is not nearly thick enough.

I can only hope that my top turns out 1/2 as well as yours did. I was thinking I wanted 5" thick top, which would rule out the 2x10s, but seeing yours, can I am now thinking that 4" is plenty thick enough.


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## TTOKC (Nov 10, 2016)

Chris, I have to take cost into consideration on my lumber purchases as well. You might check you local craigslist to see if you can get wood that would be acceptable for your bench for less than HD. If you are already considering construction grade 2x's you can often get those on CL for less than retail. Plywood too. 




Don't know what part of Maryland you are in but found these on in the Baltimore CL for $200 per pallet. That's a bunch of wood for $200 if you have the means, time and desire to mill it down to what you need for the bench.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

So much depends on what you will be doing on your bench. The traditional two vice + dog mortises has the advantage of being able to hold many sizes of parts without resorting to clamps. The waist vice can hold small parts or can clamp large parts to work on their edges. This can be enhanced by making supports that use the benches legs as additional supports for long parts. The tail vice allows clamping of varied size parts laying flat using the bench dogs. The height of the dogs is easily changed just by pushing them up/down. Repositioning them takes only seconds. The tail vice can also hold parts like legs, vertically, that need to have their ends worked on. The tool tray allows frequently used tools to be held below bench top level so they are accessible when working on most parts. When you need to work on a large part like a table top the big part can extend over the edges of the bench. 

There is a second type of tail vice that travels in between the bench top parts. The mechanical advantage being straight line push. The disadvantage being it eliminates some of the part sizes that can be stood up vertically. 

At the end of the day you can leave parts clamped between the dogs for glue up if you protect the bench top with something. There are simple post and spring clamping devices that can use the same mortise slots as the dogs, called hold downs. Hold downs have the advantage of being able to reach out onto the face of the work. They are really quick to use because they are put in place with a whack of you mallet and released by a tap of the mallet from below. 

I wouldn't use plywood for a top. Wouldn't use C-clamps either, better for metal working. 

In my production shop we use hydraulic benches for the type of work we do, easier on the back. 

Google woodworking benches for ideas.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Great post TTOKC...!

If I had to guess that wood is from a pallet and/or railroad Sawyers "overrun lot." At least that is how we use to get wood from them in the Maryland and Southern Pennsylvania region. Often an excellent resource. One can find prime material mixed in each unit they sent with only a little sorting out to do. 

That appears to be either White or Chestnut Oak...both excellent for a Workbench...

Thanks again for that post!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Larry,

You hit all the highpoints about benches...thanks for that!


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## TTOKC (Nov 10, 2016)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Great post TTOKC...!
> 
> If I had to guess that wood is from a pallet and/or railroad Sawyers "overrun lot." At least that is how we use to get wood from them in the Maryland and Southern Pennsylvania region. Often an excellent resource. One can find prime material mixed in each unit they sent with only a little sorting out to do.
> 
> ...




Yeah if I was local I would buy at least a pallet of that stuff, its a ton (figuratively and probably literally a ton) of wood for only $200. In the ad they refer to it as Cribbing/Lagging timbers, which is usually a hardwood of some kind so I agree it is probably an oak species. 


I don't like working with pallets much because it doesn't yield enough wood to justify the time to get it usable but I have found that the lumber used for cribbing when shipping steel I-beams and pipes can be turned into a lot of good wood with some milling. 


Bought this on CL last weekend for $100, its mostly 2x6 with some 4x4 and looks to be mostly some kind of oak. 










And got these for $20 a few weeks ago. Not sure what kind of wood it is but it is dense and heavy as hell.










I check CL a few times a week for good lumber bargains and just stick in my storage unit til its needed.


TT


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

If you use holdfasts as described by Larry Schweitzer, I suggest that you purchase a pair of forged holdfasts. They work well. I got mine from the Heritage School of Woodworking at Elm Mott, Tx. If interested, email Mark Borman at [email protected]. I have no affiliation other than as a happy former student. 
There are others who sell the forged holdfasts, also & can probably be found by Googling. 
To release my holdfasts, I simply give them a swat with the mallet on the backside rather than reaching under the bench. And, to minimize chances of marring my workpiece I usually place scrap wood between the piece & the holdfast. Holdfasts, dogs, & a coffin/leg vise will secure the majority of work to your bench. An end vise is also useful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure (can't remember..??) if these got shared here or not...Anyway, I thought they would be a good read and resource for you if you haven't seen them yet...

New Source For Big Slab Workbenches

The Plate 11 Bench


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

My time and wifely constraints mean I am doomed to using big box stuff.

I went today, and EVERY piece of the 2x6, 2x8 and 2x10 was like one of the 2 below. I know neither is good, but if I have to choose one or the other, which one should I choose?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> ...I know neither is good, but if I have to choose one or the other, which one should I choose?


Actually Chris...Heart Center is perfect and only runs second to true Quarter Sawn stock.

Like posts and other members in a timber frame, or even some larger furniture pieces like Armour...Heart Center is not a bad thing...

With HC stock the distortion is spread (or should be) evenly around the individual timber...With your project it will (or should) keep each member acting like an individual with its own stresses equalized along its length, and not in concert with each other. 

When monolithic in stresses are shared, like found in Plain Sawn glue ups, it could distort in the...common stress format or vector...by the individual PS members...


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Actually Chris...Heart Center is perfect and only runs second to true Quarter Sawn stock.
> 
> Like posts and other members in a timber frame, or even some larger furniture pieces like Armour...Heart Center is not a bad thing...
> 
> ...


So that is what "heart center" is ... a google search earlier was inconclusive. Cool beans. There are a fair number of boards like that.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

To be clear...It is the top photo...HC or Box Heart...

I would note, that in some areas you are not even allowed to use a stud (or post) unless it is HC. PS stock is a reject...

If you note, in the HC stock you have really nice QS stock on either side of the core pith region...Here you might see some minor checking, but that isn't anything to worry about too much, and it can always be filled if it bugs you too much...


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## Belg (Oct 2, 2011)

Jay I have always had problems with the heart center cracking, isn't this why people buy 2x 10/12 and cut out the pith to get true quartersawn??


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Belg said:


> Jay I have always had problems with the heart center cracking, isn't this why people buy 2x 10/12 and cut out the pith to get true quartersawn??


Excellent observation and point Belg...Yes, that is why they do it, and often really don't need to...

I'll break it down from what I have learned and experienced...Let me know if it helps?

First your observation's speak to the current breakdown and loss of traditional knowledge about woodworking in general...and more germane to this topic...understanding of wood use application, particularly in architectural modalities...

The more elongated a member (aka board stock like 2x over 10") a section of wood is...unlike a square post or more robust canted timber...are more prone to checking of greater significance. Even as such, nevertheless, these are still...natural checks...as seldom compromise the member structurally and only effect it aesthetically. 

Even on thin 2x stock members the dynamics of...Compression, Neutral, and Tension Zone...are still at play when speaking of their structural characteristics. Checking almost exclusively acts on the..."Neutral Zone"...thereby only having esthetic effect...not structural. When, on rare occasion, checking does move into one of the other two zones...then!!...we have issues and someone like me (or my PE) show up to see just how bad it really is, and whether it can be dealt with in situ or has to be deconstructed and replaced.

So, all in all, it's a matter of aesthetics for the most part, and even then, this can be made to enhance a piece of furniture...especially in the styles I work and practice...which does embrace the principles of 金継ぎ Kintsugi and 侘寂 Wabi-sabi that I so admire and practice to the best examples I can achieve...


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## Belg (Oct 2, 2011)

Jay, as a whole my education on woodworking is greatly self taught thru YouTube and hands on trying to not make too many mistakes.
I would like to learn more but don't know where to start.
Your link as it is only takes me to Pinterest but not any pics of your examples. I entered the English words individually and got some material just not sure it relates to your work.
If you have any other links for learning more about the type of knowledge you shared above I would love to see them. 
Sorry to the original poster for going off topic.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Chris...thanks for you patients with this reply and being off track...I suggest that Belg, you and I take this private or somewhere else after this reply if you wish to know more...



Belg said:


> Jay, as a whole my education on woodworking is greatly self taught thru YouTube and hands on trying to not make too many mistakes... Your link as it is only takes me to Pinterest but not any pics of your examples. I entered the English words individually and got some material just not sure it relates to your work. If you have any other links for learning more about the type of knowledge you shared above I would love to see them...


Hello Belg,

I take very little credit for my work most often other than among respected clients, colleagues and students. I also tend to have a hideous habit of not taking pictures myself, of myself or being in them if I can avoid it. My work is mixed in the lot I provided, if one wishes to really pick through it all, as it is a mix of mine, students and respected members of the different arts I am affiliated with. I don't seek that type of attention...per se...that so many seem to these days with their "selfies," "Snap Chatting" and such...

"English words" is part of the challenge Belg. I would have to say that conservatively more than half of what I have learned is by doing my research with real people in other languages, and with dictionaries, translators, and help of colleagues in those languages. I would have to also say...

that you can't learn very much by just watching videos of folks doing things they learned on videos themselves...

Even reading a book (without foundational skill sets) will only get someone just so far in any life skill or guild art. One really needs to go and find a teacher or a program to secure solid skills and understanding of some depth.

I do have a book list that I have share with folks that send me a personal request for one. I also have a few online students worth teaching that are extremely gifted themselves in the arts (Mr. Chickadee on Youtube is a good example of excellent videography demonstration) Even he despises the idea that folks think they can learn anything of great value from just watching some video on Youtube...

I do understand and appreciate your frustration, it is difficult sometimes to get a start in all this. I do, in all fairness though, have to suggest that I don't often see folks that actually want to...learn deeply. They just want to get by with as little effort as possible. For example, when I or others I know (and this seems to be a common first task event around the globe) start to teach someone about woodworking...students start by hand splitting several cords of wood. This seems like a menial task, and most (especially today) stop within a few hours and/or just give up, or voice extreme dislike for not getting to learn what..."they think"...they need to know immediately. This just reflects the age we are in I suppose...Nevertheless, like many (not all) DIYers...They really..."don't know what they don't know"...and have little desire to learn that first...



Belg said:


> ...I would like to learn more but don't know where to start...


So, if you really want to learn about wood, and woodworking...Make an effort to find some good teachers, and split a few cords, from there understanding will open up...and please do understand this path is paved in kilometers of mistakes, errors and fumbles...I know, I still have them all the time myself...


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