# Hand cut dove tails for new guys



## Billy De

Lately I`v noticed quite a few threads on dove tails.
I know that some guys here may think this is to simplistic a subject to start a thread on and there is plenty of stuff on youtube but I think they really miss out on a lot of simple things that are just taken for granted.

Like using the kerf to find the way of least resistance or adressing the piece things I leaned as a boy and have stayed with me all the way.

I`d like to show the methods I use to hand cut through dove tails and half blinds it would be great when Guys join in and describe how they do it or better yet post pics.

With my typing skills it would be a lot of work for me so I don't really wont to be speaking to my self so is any one up for or is it a none srarter. billy


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## ccrow

I'm more than interested in hearing from you!! I would love more information on how to hand cut dovetails. Will you be addressing tools or just the process? I realize tools can be fairly subjective.


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## Billy De

Thanks for the reply I could talk about the tools,but would shy away from the individual tool makers.


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## reprosser

I would love to see your methods. I have not started yet, so any info would be appreciated.

I don't even know what the minimum tool requirement would be. I have a few general use (framing) saws and some chisels. Not sure if I should even try a dovetail without a good saw. I do have a miter saw that looks kinda like a dovetail saw - fine tooth, squarish, with a stiffener on the top?


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## JQMack

I'll definitely follow along.


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## MastersHand

When you stop listening to other peoples suggestions on how to do things you have just become a Failure

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## cabinetman

Give it a go Billy.:yes:










 







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## Billy De

So guys four of us to start the journey sit back and enjoy it.
Judging from the hits on the thread I think more are interested and I hope they come out of the woods and join us,I sure would like a bit of feed back.

First I`m not setting my self up as an expert just a Carpenter and any thing I show here is what I learnt as a Apprentice and added to over the years,any time any one wants to ask a question go right ahead if I know the answer I`ll give it if not I`ll say so,and no BS.

I`ll take this right from the start as if this is your first wood work project so don`t take offence if it sounds really simple.

There is no right or wrong angel for a dovetail but when Carpenter`s talk about dove tails they talk in ratios IE 4in 1 written 4:1 or 6:1or what ever.

What is meant by this? Simple I will be cutting the dove tails at 8:1 so I pick a piece of scrap wood up and measure one inch across the short grain and 8inches along the long grain connect these two points with the blade from a sliding bevel and that is my 8:1. Simple More to come.


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## firemedic

5... I'm watching!

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Billy De

Wow thanks guys for the encouragement you posted when I was typing.


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## firemedic

Billy De said:


> Wow thanks guys for the encouragement you posted when I was typing.


Always interested in learning something new! :thumbsup:

I use a square to set my bevel gauge but I assume this is mainly for better visual explanation.

Onward! lol what's next?

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## PPBART

I'll sit in and follow along!


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## Brink

I'm here, too


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## cabinetman

Brink said:


> I'm here, too


I can see you thinking.:yes:
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## Billy De

Ok tools you`v come across the first one a sliding bevel some guys call it a sliding T bevel I think every carpenter carry s them in his kit I have three but still don`t think that's enough.

A couple of years ago I came across a self employed guy on the net making dove tail templates Richard Kell he came over as a regular guy
and I`V been using it ever since,no big deal a sliding bevel will do you just as good.

Back to basics face side face edge .Whats that? 

It doesn't matter whether I`v finished a piece of wood by hand or of the machine I mark them face side with a loop(that's the widest side) and face edge with a v(that's the edge) .Face side and face edge must be square to each other and strieght.

NO matter what piece of timber you use on any job these are you reference marks and you only square of these two sides .

Marking the base line you can do this with a square and a knife placing the square only on the face side and the face edge.
why?
Because if you don't when you square the line around the board you will be very lucky if they join up and if they don't join up this will mean that the base line on the out side will be at a different height to the base line on the in side and this will create gaps and you haven't even started.

The base line must be square.
I use a knife Why because my target is the three s`,what's that.

Square 

Sharpe

Shoulders

I use a marking gauge because I know my edge is square,its a old marking gauge but I love it.
I set it at just a bit wider than the boards and scribe right round both pieces.


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## Billy De

Next instalment you need a vice it dons t matter what sort of a vice but you need one.
I mark the tales first, because that's the way I do it I`m not going down the road of pins or tails first that's just the way I do it.

Place the piece in the vice and mark the tails using a knife square your marks over the end grain I like to use a small 6" square its not so cumbersome as a 12" and mark the other side.

The marks are not deep marks so I take the knife place it in the marks and tap it to freshen the marks up I want the shoulder sharp.


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## Billy De

Ok next tip here I picked this up of the net and really like it.
GO to the left hand side of the piece and press the knife into the the knife mark where they meet on the corner at a 45 degree angle and then come at it from the waste side and take a chip out of it,it gives you a perfect resting place for the saw and will guide you along your cut line.I`m right handed so by doing this it puts the saw on the right hand side of the line and me on the left hand side of the line so I`v got a perfect view of what I`m cutting.

Time to talk saws these are the 2 saws I use to cut dove tales The gents saw I`v had for over 40 years and the brass back for just under.

Not so long back a re handled both of them the judge is still out on the brass back.

Brass backs are the real thorough breeds the brass looks nice but that's not what its there for its to give the saw weight you have to hold these saws back with the weight they really want to tear into the wood and you just cant let them do it.


You have to take the weight of the saw and pull the weight into your hand you need to balance it finely in your hand its like pulling a race horse back let it go and it will rip into the wood and you will loose direction on it.
You control the weight and just move them back and forwards concentrate on following the line.


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## mike1950

Very nice old saws.:thumbsup:


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## Billy De

Thanks mike but no where as old as the guy that has got hold of them.
The brass back was the fist tool I bought as a Journey man cost me almost a weeks wages when I bought it worth every penny.


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## Billy De

Well that's it for to night guys continue it tomorrow. billy


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## mike1950

"no where as old as the guy that has got hold of them." I know what you mean, I am getting very white haired but, I look at it like this, I am one of the lucky ones to get this far.:thumbsup::yes:


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## Billy De

Yea Mike I think you right you are lucky to get this far errrrr I mean we ,sorry about that lack of concentration.(JK)


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## ACP

I'm loving this post and am on board for the long haul. I like the chipping out the tail trick for the saw ledge too. I'll have to try that. I don't know why I never thought of that, I do that for other sawing. Once you get done we'll have to have others show their methods too. I'm guessing just about all of us can learn a tip or two or the whole darn process on this thread!


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## sawdustfactory

Great timing. I'm in the middle of a 2 day dovetail class with Rob Cosman right now. I'll post pics and tips once the weekend is over .


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## Kevin07

ill be keeping an eye on this one i have lots to learn with how my first handcuts looked.


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## firemedic

sawdustfactory said:


> Great timing. I'm in the middle of a 2 day dovetail class with Rob Cosman right now. I'll post pics and tips once the weekend is over .


Oh yeah! Hows that's going?

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Billy De

ACP said:


> I'm loving this post and am on board for the long haul. I like the chipping out the tail trick for the saw ledge too. I'll have to try that. I don't know why I never thought of that, I do that for other sawing. Once you get done we'll have to have others show their methods too. I'm guessing just about all of us can learn a tip or two or the whole darn process on this thread!


ACP that's what I`m looking forward to also it always great to learn new things.

Sawdust that`s something to to look forward to I believe Rob Cosman wont let any one par their joints I think I would struggle there


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## Billy De

Ok a few more words to tools, even up to the point of when I bought my brass back I couldn't make my mind up whether I wanted a dove tail saw or a tenon saw so in the end I went for a compromise, with a blade from 12" its a bit to long for a dove tail but with 16TPI its cut like a dove tail saw so it like a dove tail saw on steroids.

What do I mean by TPI, well "teeth per inch" there is also another measurement PPI what's that, "points per inch".
the difference is TPI counts the whole teeth per inch and PPI only counts the points per inch so 16TPI could also be 17PPI.

Hows that worked out? with PPI you lose 1/2 a tooth at the start of the inch and at the end of the inch so this gives you 1 extra point.

Confusing yea but not worth worrying about just something to note.

Both dove tails and tenon saw are rip saws because they both cut on the long grain of the wood.

Sharpening, Brink posted an excellent link not so long ago maybe he`ll post it again? save me a lot of work.

Coping saw or fret saw? Neither one is wrong its what floats your boat,I use the coping saw but the fret saw has a lot thinner blade and is able to start the cut straight from get go.
The coping saw you place in the kerf and twist as you start to cut.
I`v posted a pic the coping saw is on top.

Chisels well there's no getting away from sharp chisels and there is a lot of information on how to get and keep them sharp on the forum already.
I think you would need a minimum of 1/4",3/8",1/2" and maybe 3/4" bevel edge firmer chisels but TJMO.you need to keep in mind what chisels you have when laying the dove tails out.

JMO but I think there are some good bargains on second hand and old chisel,named chisels are old chisels with the makers name stamped into the steel if the maker was proud enough to put his name on it I don't think you will go far wrong.
If you`v never fetteled a chisel maybe just pick one up and try it what do you have to lose?

I`v posted pic`s of two chisels that I didn't really want but I think the tool gods would have been evel with me if I left them, both beat up a1/2" sorby, one of England's finest old chisel makers, that was being used by a painter to open his paint cans.I gave him a big screw driver for it(he was more than happy) and a 1" W marpels. old school.

SKew chisel I`ll be using them later.
Parring chisels a real pleasure to use so thin that they are never struck with any thing a cutting edge of 25 degree`s and that's it I have 3 and while they are not struck I put Plum handles on them I love these chisels.

Fish tail chisel its really a carvers chisel but comes into its own when cutting half blind dove tails it looks like a thin chisel that's been flattend out on the end with a hammer super sharp the advantage over the skew is that you don't have to keep changing chisels but the one chisel will cut on both sides left and right.

Phew I think i need a rest.


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## Brink

All done thinking...lol

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/dovetail-saw-sharpening-34911/


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## JQMack

*Question...*

First, Billy thanks for this. You've already answered a couple of questions I had.

But, how do you determine the width of the pins/tails? Based on the tool you use to set the angles, size of the board, personal preference/style?


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## Viorato831

JQMack said:


> First, Billy thanks for this. You've already answered a couple of questions I had.
> 
> But, how do you determine the width of the pins/tails? Based on the tool you use to set the angles, size of the board, personal preference/style?


That's the same thing I've been asking myself, so far haven't found an answer.


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## tc65

A big thanks to Billy for initiating this discussion and for sharing so much of your time/experience.

JQMack and Viorato, I can only speak from my experience in cutting dovetails (making about 12 small boxes) and the width of the board is one thing that determines the width/number of dovetails I use. 

The other thing is the appearance you want. Do you want many small dovetails, fewer large, even number of them or odd?? I'm only making small boxes, so visual appeal is what I'm concerned with, and I don't think there are any rules for this other than what looks good to you. Of course, if you are talking about the strength of the joint for drawers, I'm sure others will add their experiences.

- Tim


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## Viorato831

trc65 said:


> A big thanks to Billy for initiating this discussion and for sharing so much of your time/experience.
> 
> JQMack and Viorato, I can only speak from my experience in cutting dovetails (making about 12 small boxes) and the width of the board is one thing that determines the width/number of dovetails I use.
> 
> The other thing is the appearance you want. Do you want many small dovetails, fewer large, even number of them or odd?? I'm only making small boxes, so visual appeal is what I'm concerned with, and I don't think there are any rules for this other than what looks good to you. Of course, if you are talking about the strength of the joint for drawers, I'm sure others will add their experiences.
> 
> - Tim


Thanks Tim for your response and thanks Billy for starting this thead and sharing with us your method of hand cutting dovetails . Let's say that I have a 5" board and I want small dovetails how would you find the width of each tail/pin ?


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## Billy De

So back to the job the tails are marked out and now it`s time to start cutting, first we have to address the piece .What do i mean by that? Well we all do it but we've been doing so long we don't even think about it but a new guy would.
Put the saw where you want to cut,set your feet a little apart but steady, place your shoulder directly behind the saw,your elbow in line with the saw and your shoulder ,grip the saw with three fingers and your thumb your index finger against the handle but pointing straight out.


What`s that with the finger?If you hold the handle with all four fingers and thumb you get no feed back if the saw wants to tip one way or another.
Extend the index finger and it becomes an extension of the arm and you can immediately feel if the saw is tipping and the wrist automatically corrects this,IMHO Disston understood this and that is why he cut away the saw and moved the handle further into the saw to give even more control over the saw.

Its only when you try to replace something that you know just how and why it works.the horns on the handle are not there for decoration the top horn fits between the thumb and index finger to allow you to push when needed, the bottom horn fits just under the fleshy part of the thumb and allows you to control the weight of the saw. (see pic)


The method of cutting that is now describe is an an adaption of how to cut the cheeks of a tenon.
Start by moving the saw forward not backwards but forward watching the knife lines on the top and side.You`ll have to blow the saw dust away as your doing it or you wont see the lines.
You finish with a cut line 45degrees in the piece.(see pic)

Later when confidence and skill increase you can then bring the saw back level and continue the cut strait down but for now stop there.
I`v cut all three cuts on the face side turned the piece around and cut the three cuts on the back turn it back again so what you have now is all cuts complete but with a solid piece of wood right in the hart of the cut in this manner you use the kerf twice to guide the saw and use the path of least resistance.

I hope this makes sense so far if, not say so.


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## Dominick

Isn't there a easier and faster way to do this. Lol. kidding. Your doing fine thanks. 
It is kinda long though.


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## Billy De

Sorry guys you posted all that when I was typing.Brink thinking isn`t the word for it BTW some guys where asking about sharpening saws have you still got that link if not I`ll come back to Sharpening later.I have never had any one explain to me a rule of laying out dove tails if there is one and some one knows it lets hear it and we can all learn. If you use one rule I think you will have to explain how it works say in a London dove tail and there is such a thing its more tail than pin.

The only rule I know is it must look right then it is right, because it is hand cut.I`v never had any client complain that one tail was thinner than another but I think you would hear them complain if there was gaps in it. In some cases if you are to continue with the job you must cut a tal thinner or through half the job away.To me that's the way of hand cut dove tails.


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## Billy De

Dominick yea it`s called a dove tail jig.LOL


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## Billy De

So more pics than words because it`s to long for Dominick.
Cut out waste with coping saw.
The piece clamped to the bench because I don't want it bouncing around all over the place.
A tip for guys that are not quite sure on holding the chisel square fasten a bloc on the bass line and creep up on it when you chop the waste out.

Chop half way and then turn it over but leave a small piece in the middle because if you try to chop half and the half you will burst a piece out of the middle of the joint

Clean up with a paring chisel or a sharp bevel edged chisel.Try to make sure the tails are really clean where they meat the bass line.

Set the chisel in the knife marks and par into the middle of the tail from both sides, don't try to do it from one side because you could burst the wood on the out side.

so all cleaned up and ready for the pins.


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## Dominick

You asked for critiques, so I gave them to you. Be careful what you ask for. I even said your fine thanks. Lol. 
Would you mind if I post a short video?


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## Billy De

So this is where a tail could end up smaller than the others its time to check the tails for square.

Why is this so impotent? When you use the tails for the template to cut out the pins you use the bottom of the tails to mark out the top of the pins if its not square at this stage you will have problems either gaps or too tight, to fit on.
So now is the time to do something about it if it means re cutting a tail then just do it, you can`t leave it if is not square.

Because I use a knife to mark out I don`t want any danger of either piece moving I use 2 mitre clamps to fasten every thing down before I mark the tails.Line the bass line up to the piece and mark with a knife.

Freshen the marks up then square the lines down.


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## Billy De

Dominick it was a joke my friend please don't think I was having a go at you.


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## Dominick

Billy De said:


> Dominick it was a joke my friend please don't think I was having a go at you.


So does that mean I can post this video. Lol


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## ACP

A miter clamp for transfering the tail board to the pin board! Genius! That's two things I've taken away so far and we have so far to go. Awesome!


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## tc65

+1 _"A miter clamp for transferring the tail board to the pin board! Genius!" _


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## CaptRandy

This is much better than a video, set by step without having to figure out how to rewind and get a better view. Thanks for putting in the time.


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## Billy De

When I started this thread I made a point of saying I was not setting my self up as an expert,or for that matter a dove tail king.

In this post I will show you 2 mistakes I made, on one pin when cutting the chip out I cut it out of the wrong side of the line.
On the same pin on the other side when cutting the chip out I just caught the pin and nicked it

Lack of concentration just no other words for it,Thats when I wanted To Launch this piece a cross the shop.
I thought what to do, cut another piece but some how I thought that's just cheating and mistakes are a part of the job as well.

I then thought if this was a 2" slab of teak that I was cutting in a coaming for a companion way on a boat there is no way I would be throwing it away but just get on and make it work.

So I just got on with it,in the first pic I`v cut out the pins and you can see the 2 chip out of the pin.
I didn`t show the cutting out or the chopping and parring of the joint it`s just a repeat of what was done earlier.

The second pic shows the glue up .

If you can remember when i started to mark out the job I set the gauge slightly bigger then the thickness of the wood this means that the tails and pins are proud of the wood and must be pared away.
When parring like this I like to use the corner of the chisel and sweep it into the wood,I don't par all of the wood away I leave a small piece on the outside edge and come at it from the side sweeping back across the wood.

So then clean up and finished job.


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## sawdustfactory

So I just finished 2 days (12 hour days at that) in a handcut dovetail class with Rob Cosman (don't mean to be a name dropper, but this guy is freaking amazing at cutting dovetails). Several important things I learned.

1. The saw is the most important tool when it comes to hand cut dovetails.
2. A sharp marking gauge is almost as important as #1
3. A saw with less set (.002 versus .003 per side) makes a huge difference.
4. Sharp tools are a must.
5. Tails first - they serve as a template for your pins and they don't have to be cut absolutely perfect for that reason.
6. Practice. They're not as easy as they look.
7. When sawing your tails or pins, make sure your piece is low in the vise and perpendicular. Makes cutting perpendicular a lot easier.

I'm sure I'll think of a few more things later and I'll post some pics of the ones I cut in the class once I get back into the shop with the camera.


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## sawdustfactory

As promised here are pics of my first ever handcut dovetails. The through DT in the middle is I think my best one. Would have had another half blind to show, but as I was close to finishing the chiseling on the last pin, I slipped and blew the back right out.
















A few other pearls from the class.

Buy it once and buy it right.
Outside 1/2 pins are the most important for the overall appearance of the joint.
When freehand chiseling (wood not on the bench) expose only as much blade as you're willing to stick into yourself.
Relax! Lighten your grip!
At the end of the day, leave no evidence you were at your bench (don't cut or chisel into it).

Hope this helps other newbies.


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## mike1950

Billy and steve thanks for all input here. I love doing dovetails and it is nice to learn new methods. Thanks.:thumbsup:


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## MTL

sawdustfactory said:


> So I just finished 2 days (12 hour days at that) in a handcut dovetail class with Rob Cosman (don't mean to be a name dropper, but this guy is freaking amazing at cutting dovetails). Several important things I learned.
> 
> 1. The saw is the most important tool when it comes to hand cut dovetails.
> 2. A sharp marking gauge is almost as important as #1
> 3. A saw with less set (.002 versus .003 per side) makes a huge difference.
> 4. Sharp tools are a must.
> 5. Tails first - they serve as a template for your pins and they don't have to be cut absolutely perfect for that reason.
> 6. Practice. They're not as easy as they look.
> 7. When sawing your tails or pins, make sure your piece is low in the vise and perpendicular. Makes cutting perpendicular a lot easier.
> 
> I'm sure I'll think of a few more things later and I'll post some pics of the ones I cut in the class once I get back into the shop with the camera.


I was just watching some of his videos on youtube yesterday. I'm inspired! I think sharpening chisels will be my downfall, I suck at sharpening my kitchen knives...


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## sawdustfactory

Chisels are easier to sharpen than knives, at least as far as I'm concerned.


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## 27207

Awesome tutorial! This came at just the right time! I've been wanting to start practicing dovetails but haven't ever found as good of a guide as this. Now I don't have an excuse lol. Your dovetails look great by the way!


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## 27207

My first dovetails ever! I used some scrap ply I had laying around. It made it easier to chisel out the pieces, but I ended up ripping a piece off when I realized the fit was too tight lol. And I don't have a marking gauge yet, it's in the mail. But overall I am proud of them! Thanks again for your directions! I didnt take as much time on them either as I should have, so my lines weren't exactly square or perfectly 1:8


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## Billy De

Dwillem26 thanks for this post perfectly 8:1 does not matter perfectly square does and that you have tried hand cut for the first time makes this whole thread for me worth while.


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## TysonWD

Sorry if I missed the answer, but I also had a question mentioned earlier in the thread.

How do you determine the number of dovetails in the joint? Is it purely aesthetic? Or is there a relation to the number of dovetails and strength of the joint? I've seen a number of the projects posted here where there's a big difference in size with respect to the pins and tails. I've also seen several where they are the same relative size.


Thanks for the thread, it was very informative .


Tyson


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## sawdustfactory

Tyson, the number is mostly about aesthetics. If you make them too small you do run the risk of the joint getting weaker. Too uniform and they look machine made, which you don't want if you're going to the trouble of cutting them by hand. In the class I was in it was recommended to go with a 1:6 ration on all handcut dovetails (some say this is for soft wood and 1:7 or 1:8 is for hardwoods) as this will be much more obvious as to what the joint really is. Hope this helps.


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## sawdustfactory

Here's one other tip I picked up last weekend. When transferring tail marks to pin boards, you can use your plane as a bridge to support the tail piece. Set your tail board in your vise level with the plane.








Now place the tail board on top, line it up and apply firm pressure down with one hand while marking the pins with the other. If you have a skew block plane or a shoulder plane, just a couple light passes on the inside of your tail board (before you cut your tails) right to your marking gauge line will give you a slight shoulder to register against the pin board.


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## Billy De

Tyson I tried to answer this question in post number 36.I think sawdust`s and my answer complement each other because they are saying the same thing.
I think any one doing dove tails for the fist time should not really bog them self´s down with sticking to ratio`s.
Some of the old cabinet makers would mark the bass line and then go straight to cutting the tails free hand but they could do it in there sleep.
Sometimes on old pieces if you remove the drawer you can see a noticeable difference in the quality of the joints at the back compared to those at the front.

The thought on this is the Journeymen cut the front while the Apprentices cut the back.
I think that they thought nobody would remove a drawer to inspect the back.

I meant to mention in the first part of the thread but then forgot it,how interesting I found it when" Heath " in his thread "Coping saw or chop" in the Joinery section of the forum started to use a file to clean the joint up.

The old cabinet makers used a very similar tool called a cabinet makers float but used it more on joints like a tenon to get nice tight fits and neat transitions from tenon to shoulder.

Sawdust hope to see more pics and hear more about your weekend nice one man.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Billy De

Time to start the second part to the thread .

Half blind dove tails.

The pieces that I`m using for this are both 1" thick, the tails are out of a piece of Beech block board and the pins will be out of a piece of Maranti. 

I don`t really like Maranti its a stringy wood but will add a bit of contrast in the joint.
Both pieces Have witness marks, face side and face edge.

I set the gauge to the length of the tails mark it on the end gain and both sides of the Maranti, then all the way round on the Beech

The cutting out of the tails is a repeat of the same operation in the first part of the thread so I think we can skip it hear.

Clamping the two parts together transfer the marks of the tails on to the end grain of the Maranti .

Remove the tails and Freshen the marks with a knife just tapping it with a hammer.


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## firemedic

Good job on the thread Billy De. Good decision to roll with the mistake as it's realistic. 

It's a little different but still the same as my method... one of the great aspects of wood working!

ps, sawdust, looks like you had a great time and learned a lot :thumbsup:

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Billy De

A note earlier I was not happy with one of the tails being square so marked it up again and parred it square this will make a difference in the size of the pins and tails but not a big difference and as said a couple of times now these are hand cut and not cut by a machine.

The marks of the pins are transferred down to the bass line and every thing is ready for cut out.

I used a 8" gents saw for the tails and to face cut the pins,only to show that it can be used for this work just as well.

The only thing that I have against gents saws is that some times the handles are junk I mean that, I`v some times seen better handles on files.

I made this handle out of a piece of beech it fits well in the hand and really makes a difference to how the saw reacts.

I didn't cut chips out of the marks because there is a fair a mount of chisel work to be done and its just as easy to par to the knife marks.

I use the gents saw to cut a line from the bass line to the gauge mark on the end grain of the maranti,this cut line is only to help when hogging out the wood in between the pins.

Clamped to the bench and and ready to go.


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## Billy De

firemedic said:


> Good job on the thread Billy De. Good decision to roll with the mistake as it's realistic.
> 
> It's a little different but still the same as my method... one of the great aspects of wood working!
> 
> ps, sawdust, looks like you had a great time and learned a lot :thumbsup:
> 
> ~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"



Tom I took the decision to roll with it be cause we all make mistakes and a new guy may think he is the only one making them,its how we get around mistakes that counts


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## firemedic

Billy De said:


> Tom I took the decision to roll with it be cause we all make mistakes and a new guy may think he is the only one making them,its how we get around mistakes that counts


I couldn't agree more.

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Billy De

Now I start to chop out but Keeping clear of the bass line.
I`m using a sash mortice chisel because you can beat this thing and it will just take it.

Some may question my use of a rubber mallet but I don't wont to beat my chisels with any thing that is just as hard, or harder than the handles.

GO back to the end grain and chop into the waste,when I sawed into the waste it only saws at a rough angel of 45 degrees you have to get a chisel in there so you can chip the waste out.

When you`v hogged most of it out time to put it back in the vice ready for parring


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## Billy De

These are my skew chisels IMHO the best skew chisels are bevel edged and about 1/4" wide I made these from chisels i picked up second-hand and very cheap.

I have parring chisels but if your using bench chisels they must be sharp if they are new the chances are they will need to be honed lean how to do it ,it will really pay you back.

Place the chisel in the knife marks and press away no mallet the idea is to split the knife marks.

Normal chisel may have problems getting into the corner and you may have to push into the wood to get in to the corner,Skew chisels are very sweet at this and that point is very sharp.

Keep working away at it till your happy with the shape of the pins.


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## Billy De

Last post.



Glue up,clean up and the two pieces together.
It`s as easy or as difficult as that.

It makes me call to mind the words that where said to me on the day I became a Journeyman"Well now you Know it all" LOL


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## ACP

Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this thread. Those DT's turned out really good and I personally learned a lot. Thanks!


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## Moose83

That was a great trend lots of good info I'm sorry I didn't catch it earlier but am really glad I found it. Thanks for all your insight I really learned a lot being fairly new to this.


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## Billy De

Your welcome Moose ,this thread is for new guys just like you.It would be interesting to hear(or see) if any one else has had a go at dove tails for the first time. Any one else that is about to try them good luck and enjoy it. billy


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## preacherman

Thanks! This was very informative for a new guy like me!


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## chunter_ksu

I have been lurking on this site for quite sometime and felt like my first post belonged on this thread. 

I really appreciate you taking the time to lay this out. I have never tried dovetails before but after reading this thread you spiked my interest and I have spent the last few nights in the shop cutting dovetails. I can't say that they are looking as good as your's, but they are getting better. 

Thanks for taking the time to explain the process as you have. It has been great and I look forward to reaching the point where I can add this technique to my future projects.


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## Anokiernan

I wish this thread existed about a month earlier. Phenominal information, thanks for posting this!


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## tcleve4911

Great job on the tutorial Billy.
I stashed away a couple of fantastic tips on that one.
The notch with the marking knife is a good one.

Marking......
Orientation of the four boards can get very confusing if you don't mark them with a fool prove method like you do.
People use letters and numbers and arrows and others.
I like your method of marking. 

Here is another one that I use.
It's call the triangle marking method.
It was taught to me by Thos Moser himself when I took a class from him many many years ago. 










It makes it easy to know the inside, outside, right side and left side.

Thanks again Billy De...you're good...you are very good.....


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## Brink

Billy, great tutorial! Well done.

I was wondering why you chose half tails instead of half pins.


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## Billy De

Well guys Let me say a big thanks for the feed back,this was my fist try at a tutorial and believe me I learnt a lot. At the beginning I think i was trying to put to much information into it and not allowing you guys to ventilate and ask questions and I was trying to much to lead the thread.

In the second part of the thread I eased off and left things open to give you guys the chance to ask questions.
If I know the answer I`ll give it if I don`t I won`t simple as that.
To think that a guy is trying this for the first time because of this post to me is awesome,

Chunter Ksu thank you for the privilege of you fist post but don`t let it be your last there is a lot of knowledge on this forum and the guys are willing to give it and there is no such thing as a stupid question.


tcleve4911 that really is a great tip it`s so simple there is just no way it will get messed up, nice one. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Brink good question the idea of the thread was to show how to do hand cut dove tails and while it is said the best way to show dove tails on a drawer is to start and finish with a half pin,not every dove tail is a drawer.


The way I was taught to cut dove tails on a drawer was to cut it with a half tail on the bottom and a half pin on the top.
Wow that sounds crazy but it works and this is why when you cut the grove for the bottom of the draw the grove is cut through the half tail and the grove on the face is covered by the half tail, so you can only see the grove from the front.

When it is a through dove tail a false face is fitted so no grove is seen,when it is a half blind dove tail the face covers the grove and again it is not seen.

At the back of the drawer the back is cut off at the top of the grove and the base is screwed into the back.I realise That is a left over from when the base of the drawer was solid wood but it allows me to square the drawer up at glue up and later fit the base.


Now there are exception to this, say you where cutting a London paten dove tail in which the pins are really tiny and the tails are big in this case you can start with a pin on the bottom and finish with a pin on the top.

But the grove still is cut through the bottom tail you don`t loose any depth in the draw and you still don`t see the grove.

In all cases I finish with a pin in the top so the drawer is full and is not chopped into to except the tail.


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## papason

Wow, that was terrific. I just seen it , just became a member. I sure am glad somebody said they were interested and got you putting this out. I dont know that I ever would have done this but now I will. i hope I find more info on the saw sharpening like this dovetail post cause I dont quite get it all.

Anyway thanks Dee good job


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## ccrow

I got a new (to me) Veritas 14 pt dovetail saw for my birthday. It arrived last night and here's my first attempt with it today. There not great and it's some pretty soft pine and my chisels weren't super sharp, but it is what it is.


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## Anokiernan

Ok I'll play, my first attempt at hand cut dovetails (started prior to this thread):









And then with a big thanks to Billy, my first attempts at half blinds:









Unfortunately I already cut all of the pieces to size, without leaving room for a little bit of overhang to pare away prior to seeing this thread. I'm confident that with the help of this thread and everyone else on the board that these are only going to get better from here :thumbsup:


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## barnabaas

this was a fantastic thread! I can't wait to have a project where i can create some dove tails. Thanks so much for putting all this out there. It's been very informative and super helpful :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Azur Jahić

Is dovetail good way to make some drawers. I was thinking to make some drawers for my tools. Using this kind a work.But i tried once and it wasn't go right.It hasn't fit enaugh.So i give up.But now looking on forum i have wish to make one like these.


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