# Cryogenic bowl gouge



## 44260 (Aug 29, 2013)

Has anyone have any experience with Pinnacle Cryogenic bowl gouges? The description that Woodcraft has says they are better then M-2 steel as far as durability and staying sharper longer. I am looking for a HSS bowl gouge and came across this gouge.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

The cryogenic gouges do supposedly hold an edge longer but according to my friends it's not enough to be easily seen by the average turner. Kind of like the particle metal tools that claim 4 times the life. They do hold an edge longer but it's hot a huge amount. 
Freezing the steel helps convert more of the carbides in the tool. I forget the actual terms but when a steel is hardened and has the right metals in it most of these are converted to harder materials and the cryogenic freezing helps convert the rest. 
Are they worth the money. Not sure. If I remember correctly the Thompson gouges are particle metal that is also cryongenically treated after the first heat treatment so in theory they have all the good benefits. Still when I bought mine and compared them to my normal HSS gouges it was difficult to tell that they really hold an edge longer. 
In the long run I have found the Thompsons to be wonderful tools but give me a standard HSS gouge and I'll turn the same things. I'll just sharpen more often.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Cryogenic treatment of the steel may have a benefit, but this may not be the same between the manufacturers.

I have Henry Taylor Kryo tools which keep an edge reasonably well.

I have a couple of Pinnacle Cryo tools and although I like them, they do not keep an edge as well as the Henry Taylor.

My Doug Thompson HSS tools seem to keep an edge better than the Henry Taylor Kryo or the Pinnacle Cryo.


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## Wooduse (Jan 17, 2011)

I do not have any experience with the tools you are referring to. I do however have experience with the Ellsworth bowl gouge, and I love it. Once I learned how to use it, it is the only tool I need for bowl turning.


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## bond3737 (Nov 13, 2009)

I have the pinnacle cryogenic bowl gouge and the doug thompson bowl gouge 15v both are 5/8 inch gouges. I bought the cryo as my first gouge and eventually wanted to try the thompson gouges. I would trust others advice on this before my own as many are more knowledgeable about steel and edge holding capabilities and such. But having put both of these tools through their paces and having turned hundreds of bowls with each I can say that I honestly cannot tell a difference between the 15v and the chryo. That is not to say that there is not a difference... there probably is but it's kind of like having a bucket with 10,000 grains of sand in it and a bucket with 10,050 grains of sand in it. Technically there's more sand in one but they look the same weigh the same in the hand etc. Perhaps if I were paying very close attention I might be able to discern a difference but in the vast array of things I am paying close attention to in turning my thompson 15v lasting 18 passes as opposed to the chryo lasting 16 passes is never one of them. They both last a long time. The difference between regular steel (mostly found in older turning tools) and hss is huge in terms of edge holding. I also noticed a big difference in transition from regular hss to chryo and steel with a high vandium content and powdered steel. I know one has higher vandium content and know one goes through a different process of making the steel know one uses a certain powder in certain amounts that is supposed to differentiate it from the other in some way. But the only thing I really need to know in the end is that the stuff in the higher price range does cut significantly better than the stuff in the low price range. Ive tried to make the biggest effort in training my brain to recognize a dull tool the moment it becomes too dull and figuring out the best bevel angle, wing shape and proper tool for the cuts I am making. Getting better at these two things and putting energy into them has made 1000 fold difference but learning the difference between high quality tools and the exact amount of time they last is not a detail I have learned to exploit in a way that saves me big amounts of time Perhaps one day I will be able to find the difference but I doubt Ill ever get to that level of precision being useful without missing out on more important stuff... Way windier than I intended... sorry bout that...just my 2 cents  happy turnin, 
Bond


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## 44260 (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks for everyone's input and experience. I think I will just sick to a HSS gouge.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Great post. sharpening, sharpening angles and how you use the tool has more affect on edge than the material the tool is made off. At least once you get to the really good tools. On wood it's very hard to tell when an edge of two different steels gets dull. You can on some really abrasive woods but not on the common woods most of us use. 
I had some 100 year old oak barnwood that would dull a HSS tool to the point it would barely cut in one pass across a 5 1/2" mirror blank. With the thompson gouge I would get maybe 2. That wood was the worst I've ever turned. I guess it was years of sand penetrating the wood. Once I got about 1/4" deep it cut more like hard oak and either tool but just fine. 
I also had to turn some aluminum for a glass artist. I would barely get one pass across the 1" wide metal before it started getting hard to push and the curls changed. With the Thompson I was able to cut the entire bead shape before it needed sharpening.


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## Sacha45 (Nov 27, 2013)

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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

I buy the cheaper bowl gouges from Grizzly, their profiles are pretty bad. But, then I use a red oxide bit in my dremel, shape the inside profile to someting between a Hunter/Termite angle, sharpen the outside on a wet grinder and get a superb cut.


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## Sacha45 (Nov 27, 2013)

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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

If you are going to stay with HSS you may want to take a look at these. I bought a set for my daughter and really can't tell a difference in them and my Sorby/Crown/Hamlet tools.
The are made to UK specs so compared to most brands sold they are 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8" (instead of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2).
I do not know if they are made in the UK or made in PRC to UK specs.
http://www.thewoodturningstore.com/...Three-Piece-Bowl-Gouge-Set-34.html?cPath=4_10


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

bond3737 said:


> I have the pinnacle cryogenic bowl gouge and the doug thompson bowl gouge 15v both are 5/8 inch gouges...... and having turned hundreds of bowls with each I can say that I honestly cannot tell a difference between the 15v and the chryo........


Both tools are cryogenically treated as part of their tempering process, so any difference between the two would not be related to cryo treatment. The only difference would have to do with the vanadium content. I don't know the vanadium content of the Pinnacle, but it probably is around 5% while the Thompson 15V has about 15% vanadium (that is what 15V stands for in the name). Vanadium adds toughness to steel ... whether it helps with cutting edge durability is a matter for debate, but I agree that you probably can't tell much, if any, difference. I have an assortment of bowl gouges and I use them until they are dull and then grab another one. I don't pay much attention to how long they go before needing honing or sharpening.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Dave Paine said:


> Cryogenic treatment of the steel may have a benefit, but this may not be the same between the manufacturers.
> 
> I have Henry Taylor Kryo tools which keep an edge reasonably well.
> 
> ...


I have a ¾" Henry Taylor bowl gouge and really do like it. The smoothly polished flute enables me to get a really nice finish cut. I have a couple Thompson bowl gouges and while they are nice, the one thing that turns me off about them is that the flutes have the machining ridges that have not been polished out. That means no matter how good and smooth the bevel, the cutting edge will always be sawtooth. Doug is opinionated about his tools so he doesn't think that is a negative. Meanwhile I keeps using a diamond slipstone to polish out the ridges in the flute.


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