# Festool



## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

Quick question for you all.

What in the world makes Festool tools so freakin expensive??? I mean... a jigsaw is $450!!! I would love some insight into this and if any of you own some tools, are they actually worth the money (to a contractor or course. I doubt any hobbiest would get their tools.)


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It's much like a Cadillac vs a Buick. They're better tools, the quality is better, they last longer, and they're built for durability not price. Now they also have a map program that keeps retailers from fighting over price. If you want to sell them, you sell them at their retail. This protects margin for the retailers, and keeps the brand from having to compete on price. Does it cost twice as much to build a caddy as a Buick, no, but they'll charge you twice as much because they can. 

Now there are some other influences with currency exchanges and tax rates, but the majority of it is you're buying a really good product meant to last a long long long time.


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

Festool is basically a luxury brand, just like Rolex, Mercedes, Hermes, etc. That's the appeal. Many people associate high prices with high quality, and the brand is set up to capitalize on that.

The Festool stuff I've seen is shown as being 'Made in Germany', which holds some cache for some people. Of course, most people aren't smart enough to look up the legal requirements to mark something 'made in germany', so exactly what that means is in question. I personally haven't looked it up, because I don't really care. I do know other products marked 'made in germany' have maybe 20% of the thing that is actually made in Germany, the rest comes from all over the world. 'Made in Italy' is pretty meaningless, but 'Made in the USA' is pretty stringent.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

pweller said:


> Festool is basically a luxury brand, just like Rolex, Mercedes, Hermes, etc. That's the appeal. Many people associate high prices with high quality, and the brand is set up to capitalize on that.
> 
> The Festool stuff I've seen is shown as being 'Made in Germany', which holds some cache for some people. Of course, most people aren't smart enough to look up the legal requirements to mark something 'made in germany', so exactly what that means is in question. I personally haven't looked it up, because I don't really care. I do know other products marked 'made in germany' have maybe 20% of the thing that is actually made in Germany, the rest comes from all over the world. 'Made in Italy' is pretty meaningless, but 'Made in the USA' is pretty stringent.



The tools are made in their facilities, in house, assembled by hand, in Wendlingen Germany. 

This year is their 90th anniversary.

To get a better quality power tool, you will spend even more on something like Mafell.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

arvanlaar said:


> Quick question for you all.
> 
> What in the world makes Festool tools so freakin expensive??? I mean... a jigsaw is $450!!! I would love some insight into this and if any of you own some tools, are they actually worth the money (to a contractor or course. I doubt any hobbiest would get their tools.)


You would be wrong. In reality, over 50% of their sales are to hobbyists. 

I have been buying and using festool for 7 years. 

I actually own both the corded and cordless version of that jigsaw.

Better not check the price of their miter saw.....


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## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

OK so ya... Mafell is the new :O or  for power tool. $3000 for a circular saw????


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Its just another tool. If you like a feature then one should buy it..


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> The tools are made in their facilities, in house, assembled by hand, in Wendlingen Germany.


This is the same thing that every luxury manufacturer says: all of our products are hand-made by gnomes in the Swiss Alps!


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

I think build quality is the big one. I don't own any festools, but the ones ive held feel solid. Well made, excellent quality control, and seem to do their job well for a very, very long time as well.

Ive never heard anyone complain about using anything they make


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Name brand. Its all about demographics and what people are willing to pay. 

Most common folks (not all) wont buy them because they cant afford them, and hide that by claiming theyre not worth the extra money anyway.

Then you have professional/semi professional folks who say youre not putting out decent work unless you have XYZ brand. Those folks buy into the brand loyalty like ship rats to feces, and hide that fact by claiming the best quality ever.


Me personally, Ive got accurate tools that do the job already, so Im not in the market. But if I was, Id probably go with the brands that have worked for me thus far, and are far less expensive.


Bottom line, get what you like and what you think works best for you.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

pweller said:


> This is the same thing that every luxury manufacturer says: all of our products are hand-made by gnomes in the Swiss Alps!


Do your own research. All tools are made in their facility and hand assembled. 

I have good friends behind the scenes, I belive there is a video available that shows some bits of their factory an employees there.


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## Burb (Nov 30, 2012)

If my budget allowed, I'd own a lot of Festool products. I recently seriously considered their new miter saw; however, what I wanted it for wouldn't justify the cost as I'd use very few of the features. However, current economics dictate that as a hobbies, I can't afford them. I've already justified them, but can't justify the $$ at this point. Maybe someday...

I'd like their jigsaw, domino, track saw, sander, and their dust collection unit that hooks directly to everything.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

I own a Festool track saw. I used to wonder why they cost so much too. German made products are known to be cheap. The track saw is a very good tool for cutting sheet goods and leaving an edge that's splinter free. I can cut up a sheet of furniture grade plywood in a matter of minutes without a single clamp. It is very well made and does everything it says it will. Big plus to me also is its not made in China. I'll pay the extra money if I feel the tool warrants it. I also have a good assortment of tool brands in my shop. Dewalt, Jet, Bosch, Milwaukee, Porter Cable, Tormek, to name a few. 
Mike Hawkins


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## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys! I guess there is a price people are willing to pay to ensure their tool works the same way all the time. Reliability is a big factor in a lot of people's purchases. 

And I can definitely see the status seekers who buy the best of the best just to say they own that. Its like women who buy gucci or prada purses. Sure they are better quality but at the same time, if a jig saw costs $1000, I can buy 5 or more 'lower tiered' brands and get pretty close quality but for far cheaper. 

Thanks for your input  I have no desire to spend that much on a tool (can't justify spending mortgage payments on a tool that I would use for a hobby in my case) but I was just extremely curious as previously, before joining this site, I always though Milwakee, Makita, Dewalt etc were the top end consumer brands. My eyes have been opened!!!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*categories of tools*

I can think of 3 categories of powered hand tools;
Home owner
Light industrial or professional
Heavy duty Industrial

The homeowner lines have been around for years and are commonly found in the box and hardware stores. Craftsman, Powercraft, Skil, Dewalt, Black and Decker all the newer lines. Typically the battery models run on 18 V or less, mostly less.

The light industrial and pro models and some heavy duty home owners include types like Craftsman in the 50's and 60's, Stanley, Milwaukee, Dewalt, older Porter Cables and Black and Decker, and older Skil, Festool,Makita, Hitachi, Mafell and Elu.

The Industrial models include names we have not heard of for oil rigs, mining and other high demand operations: http://www.csunitec.com/saws/?PHPSESSID=2738b6ec1a43f9985c73f83f8d6ddd4c#concrete

Sometimes the lines between the homeowner and professional types gets blurry as the manufacturers try to cover both markets. The real difference to me is the duty cycle times on the pro models are far in excess of the lighter duty homeowner types. If you need a tool that will operate in all sorts of conditions and for extended periods of time, you will have to pay more to get that quality, and Festool certainly falls into that category. You get what you pay for ...as a rule.

Many years ago, when I was still in grammer school I spotted a Stanley Industrial electric drill in a hardware store window. I put it on layaway and paid it off over a few months with my allowance, I had to have it! It look a lot like this one, ran at 125 RPM and would twist your arm off if it got stuck:


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

They make a tape measure with a window in it so you can measure inside lengths against a wall without having to do math. I'm totally going to get one. 

Would that qualify me to join one of those Festool owner websites?


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

arvanlaar said:


> Thanks for the input guys! I guess there is a price people are willing to pay to ensure their tool works the same way all the time. Reliability is a big factor in a lot of people's purchases.
> 
> And I can definitely see the status seekers who buy the best of the best just to say they own that. Its like women who buy gucci or prada purses. Sure they are better quality but at the same time, if a jig saw costs $1000, I can buy 5 or more 'lower tiered' brands and get pretty close quality but for far cheaper.
> 
> Thanks for your input  I have no desire to spend that much on a tool (can't justify spending mortgage payments on a tool that I would use for a hobby in my case) but I was just extremely curious as previously, before joining this site, I always though Milwakee, Makita, Dewalt etc were the top end consumer brands. My eyes have been opened!!!


If you are interested in luxury goods and marketing in general, here are two good books:

http://www.amazon.com/Deluxe-How-Lu...ie=UTF8&qid=1424453386&sr=1-1&keywords=luxury

This isn't a marketing book per se, but it does go into how people perceive things:

http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psy...ywords=influence+the+psychology+of+persuasion

Both of these books will serve you pretty well in life overall, they both build wisdom and understanding of 'big-picture' forces at work, which many people don't understand.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

most chefs cook with $8 kitchen depot pans. Its the hobbyists that often feel the need to spend lots of money on marketing jazz, and to some degree, the act of researching, shopping, and buying, becomes the hobby itself.

While they are surely great products, I would be sure the margins on festool products is exponentially higher than any other tool. That alone irks me to some degree.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

You guys have to change the way your thinking. First off. Fe$tool is a quality tool. But the reason their tools are three and four times the price of others is NOT because they are three to four times better.

There are costs associated with the tool that have nothing to do with the quality of the tool. Taxes,VAT and government regs dictate the price starting point. That alone takes them right out of the lower costing lines we see here in the US. If they made a "value" tool like the Crapsman. It would cost more than the Porter Cable, Dewalt and Bosch tools. So they basically only have one market, high quality. 

Another reason is the way they are marketed. Like Apple, this is the price. This price is the same everywhere. No discounts no competition between dealers. 

Lastly. They have many items that only operate with their bits, blades and parts. Few after market manufacturers. And man Are their ad dons pricy. If you need a new pad for your sander you have to buy it from them and a $15 ROS pad is $45- $75 dollars. Bend over we'll drive. 

Now the same goes for other items sold in Germany. Check out the price of Timberland boots. 

Al B Thayer

Oh I forgot to mention, workers get the day before, the day of and the day after their birthday off paid.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I love these kinds of threads. Seems everyone that is an expert on the pricing has no actual experience of owning the tool.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I love these kinds of threads. Seems everyone that is an expert on the pricing has no actual experience of owning the tool.


Well you have to admit. When viewing the prices your next move is checking your glasses or picking yourself up off the floor. Or maybe your looking for the fellow it comes with that will operate it for you, no extra charge.

The professional trim carpenter doing work in point houses ($1.2 mill 1.3 mill) should own a plethora of green tools and for good reason. The rest would be best owned by the Europeans and really rich people that have no concern for, what it costs. By rich I mean the Rolls people. Not the Caddy guys.

Please don't try to convince me a Fe$tool sander is 3 times better than my low profile var. speed Porter Cable ROS. I have one for each grit and you are still saving up for sandpaper because no other sand paper has the correct hole spacing. 

I like and buy quality tools. When I don't, I don't use the phrase, "I got a really good deal".

Al


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

No need to bother, you have made up your mind by the price alone.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It's ironic that Al is the one saying they're too expensive here. 

Al, you may be disappointed to hear the low profile porter cable and dewalt clone sanders are discontinued. I have one of the dewalt versions, and was going to buy another as I use mostly two grits. I was disappointed to find they aren't available anymore. 

Once I figured that out, I went and looked at festool sanders as none of the others I have tried live up to the low profile porter cable/dewalt sanders. I think it may be my next sander.


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## Justin Huisenga (Apr 2, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Its just another tool. If you like a feature then one should buy it..


Simple. To the point and 100% accurate. To this I would add that if the features of the tool will make you more money or simplify/increase accuracy of certain tasks then buy it. Cost makes little difference if they speed you up enough or minimize enough re-work and deficiencies to offset the price. The 75 track saw payed for itself very quickly for door work and casework installs.

I personally cherry picked the tools from their line up that make sense for me as a trim carpenter. Some would be nice to have but will make no impact on my bottom line. Others make no sense to me at all.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> No need to bother, you have made up your mind by the price alone.


This forum is filled with posts by you berating any tool less than 100 years old or 3000lbs...

in any case, the economic factors contributing to their high cost are not opinion.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I have several things that are only 60 to 70 years old.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Oh, i forgot my shaper, only 10 years old. Still heavy.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Oh, i forgot my shaper, only 10 years old. Still heavy.


I stand by my question several threads past, do you own any tools that don't require a forklift to move? Somewhere amongst the 30 inch jointer, is there a solitary screwdriver?:laughing:


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## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

Wow this has turned into a nice debate  loving it! Learning lots of interesting points!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fe$tool, Mirka, Fein or any tools made and sold out of Europe will always cost more from the start. Same reason Timberland boots bought in Germany cost more. The boots are not 3 times better. 

Again. While these are fine tools, in no way are they 3 times better or will they last 3 times as long. Yet they do cost 3 times the price of really good tool. You have to spend more because their bottom line cost is more. I hear talk of how good their customer service is. Why would there even be a need for it?

Trying to compare these tools to most other tools is ridiculous. The only comparisons that can be made would be to compare them to other tools made in Europe. Fe$tool to Mirka and so on. 

Some here are still having trouble reading and understanding my posts. Still putting word in my posts that aren't there. This is waning thin and therefore I have no response. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

arvanlaar said:


> Wow this has turned into a nice debate  loving it! Learning lots of interesting points!


Well don't be shy! Jump right in. What ya learnd?

Al


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Without using or owning the tool, how do you know they won't last 3x longer? I like how you think the cost difference directly relates to longevity. 

Lots more to it besides the cost, features are one. There is more to the service then tool repair. They have full time application specialists that are there to answer any sort of question one may have in regards to their tools. 

The dust collection an ease of transport and storage are some if my favorite features.

I am glad that they don't compete in the race to the bottom of the price and quality market.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Its just another tool.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am glad that they don't compete in the race to the bottom of the price and quality market.


 Me too. That's why DeWalt isn't the great brand it used to be. Sure, they're all over the place now. You can't walk an aisle of any hardware store without seeing DeWalt screwdriver bits, safety glasses, and everything. What was wrong with just power tools? 

I'm convinced that when Craftsman introduced their Evolv entry level brand, that's when their hand tools went to crap. Now they're all made in China because they build it to a price. The once mighty Craftsman hand tools don't look any better than a Pittsburgh from Horror Freight.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Mort said:


> Me too. That's why DeWalt isn't the great brand it used to be. Sure, they're all over the place now. You can't walk an aisle of any hardware store without seeing DeWalt screwdriver bits, safety glasses, and everything. What was wrong with just power tools?
> 
> I'm convinced that when Craftsman introduced their Evolv entry level brand, that's when their hand tools went to crap. Now they're all made in China because they build it to a price. The once mighty Craftsman hand tools don't look any better than a Pittsburgh from Horror Freight.


warranty...


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Without using or owning the tool, how do you know they won't last 3x longer? I like how you think the cost difference directly relates to longevity.
> 
> Lots more to it besides the cost, features are one. There is more to the service then tool repair. They have full time application specialists that are there to answer any sort of question one may have in regards to their tools.
> 
> ...


does any tool "fail" that often anyway? There are a few things that are almost designed to fail, batteries for instance.

Im more interested in what tool works the best than what will work the longest. I think some festool tools have better ergonomics, better accessories, a more polished look, run quieter, nice case, ect. Just the little things that most brands overlook or ignore.

However, I file this under "nice to have" but I dont assign much monetary value to them.. which I suspect is why other brands dont try as hard in these areas.

When it comes down to it, the last festool product I seriously shopped was the track saw. Their saw is designed so it will not work with any other track (while most every other saw will use any track, including festools). Of course when their bent aluminum costs significantly more than another bent aluminum, its hard not to draw a conclusion about why they did that...

with that said, also, festool does not make any big tools anyway, do they? like only hand tools I think? Or is it just that they dont ship overseas much.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Circular saw, miter saw, router and plate joiner are the only power tools Ive ever seen by them. You would think if they were as spectacular as some claim them to be you might see TS's, BS's, jointers, planers, etc.

Then again, theyre getting $1,200 for a circular saw so theyd probably want 20k for a TS.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

bauerbach said:


> does any tool "fail" that often anyway? There are a few things that are almost designed to fail, batteries for instance.
> 
> Im more interested in what tool works the best than what will work the longest. I think some festool tools have better ergonomics, better accessories, a more polished look, run quieter, nice case, ect. Just the little things that most brands overlook or ignore.
> 
> ...


Its an extrusion and they do work on several other manufacturer's rails. 



Chamfer said:


> Circular saw, miter saw, router and plate joiner are the only power tools Ive ever seen by them. You would think if they were as spectacular as some claim them to be you might see TS's, BS's, jointers, planers, etc.
> 
> Then again, theyre getting $1,200 for a circular saw so theyd probably want 20k for a TS.


Well, its more like 625.00 for a rail saw and rail.



I get it. This place is a plastic table saw land.

I guess you don't realize that an actual industrial quality TS will run 14k+. Ever price out a Martin? You are talking 25k up to 50k for a serious, well built industrial quality saw.

Ever use something like a Martin, Northfield, Whitney, Greenlee, etc?

Festool was once a fairly big player in the Euro machinery market an imported over here from the 50's through the late 80's.









I have managed to track a few down as well:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Without using or owning the tool, how do you know they won't last 3x longer? I like how you think the cost difference directly relates to longevity.
> 
> Lots more to it besides the cost, features are one. There is more to the service then tool repair. They have full time application specialists that are there to answer any sort of question one may have in regards to their tools.
> 
> ...


Well Warner they have an excellent tool. And yes they have added features that would make the tool better and cost more. They have too for the most part. Because they can't compete in the cheap tool market. Or even the market where Porter Cable DeWalt and Bosch sell. Their product would still be 2 and a half times the price. If I can buy a PC 690 for $145. A good deal for the same sized Fe$tool router should cost $165. But only if it had that dust port. 

But paying $435 for 1 1/2hp with a 1/4" collet just seems crazy. Plus shipping gees!

ROS sander $195 for a tall clunky sander that is on the level with an $85 sander. $35 to replace the pad everyone else buys for $15. 

I've tested the tools in the store and don't find the handles to my liking either. Which leaves me puzzled why they would make them that way. Too long and lanky. Doesn't make me say, better. I remember when good tools were made out of aluminum and the lessor models from plastic. So I don't see the tools really lasting like the tools of yesteryear. 

But hey you own great tools and they serve you well and if you get that $70 buffing pad you can do your own Rolls. 

I'm glad they don't compete to the bottom of the barrel either. Too bad my beloved tools are starting to show signs of caving in to the price only shopper. 

Al


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

My cost of ownership has been very low. Maybe on my 4th backing pad on my rotex in 7 years, sandpaper lasts longer then any i have tried. My oldest drill is still using the same battery's after 6 years (tossed two makitas in half the time). 

Like i have said, people only seem to bash on the price, even all your supposed playing withs had the price at the begining of your comparison. 

I have sold several to upgrade to a new model, I am able to sell a 5+ year old power tool for 75%+ the price of new. Never been able to do that with any other power tool.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

There still just tools. Don't understand the argument?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Mort said:


> Me too. That's why DeWalt isn't the great brand it used to be. Sure, they're all over the place now. You can't walk an aisle of any hardware store without seeing DeWalt screwdriver bits, safety glasses, and everything. What was wrong with just power tools?
> 
> I'm convinced that when Craftsman introduced their Evolv entry level brand, that's when their hand tools went to crap. Now they're all made in China because they build it to a price. The once mighty Craftsman hand tools don't look any better than a Pittsburgh from Horror Freight.


Was that before or after the 60s and 70s? Because they were crap then too. But I see now they get one of their routers made by the same company as Bosch. Wonder what isn't the same and how they make it cheaper?

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> My cost of ownership has been very low. Maybe on my 4th backing pad on my rotex in 7 years, sandpaper lasts longer then any i have tried. My oldest drill is still using the same battery's after 6 years (tossed two makitas in half the time).
> 
> Like i have said, people only seem to bash on the price, even all your supposed playing withs had the price at the begining of your comparison.
> 
> I have sold several to upgrade to a new model, I am able to sell a 5+ year old power tool for 75%+ the price of new. Never been able to do that with any other power tool.


The last thing I do is buy on price. I have a Unisaw, Powermatic 8" jointer and a 13" commercial grade Delta planer. I use a full size panel saw that cuts accurate enough to use as a finish cut. It's a hobby for me. If I was in the trade and needed a mostly dust free set of tools I probably still would buy something elsewhere. The cost value is just too far apart for me. The fact that you have to buy most of their aftermarket add ons is another reason Fe$tool doesn't fit. But they're nice plastic tools. 

Just another tool. 

Al


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Warner I would hardly lump todays Festool products in with 'industrial quality'. From what Ive seen theyre made with just as much plastic as everything else nowadays.

My exaggerated sarcasm about them selling a TS meant that if youre spending the better part of $1000 for a circular saw you can buy a nice Grizz, PM, JET etc. for a little bit more or the same. The same grade TS from FT would probably run 20k. Sarcasm but true to an extent.

Ive never owned any of their tools because I have no need. My 120$ Dewalt CS with a 20$ Swanson alumin straight edge will do the same thing a FT track saw will. And if I were to try one out tomorrow and found it to be the absolute bee's knee's I still wouldnt buy one because I have an alternate method that works perfectly for far less.


I have nothing against anyone who owns or buys FT tools. But when someone comes here asking what the difference is based on how expensive they are I feel obligated to keep reality in check and keep folks grounded. Granted with some tools there is a definite reason why they cost more, but with FT's current line up I do not see this as the case.


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## Zach H. (Nov 2, 2014)

I have limited experience with Festool, having only used their jigsaw, but Holy Crap what a jig saw! The saw is actually my bosses, but I have used it on a few projects. I love it because it not only powers through anything like the proverbial knife through butter, but cuts square doing it. It also runs very, very smoothly with very little vibration. My boss bought it to cut the decorative ends on 4x and 6x pergola beams. If you use their blades, you can bury it and it will still cut straight. 
I am definitely going to get one in the future, and probably one of their track saws too. Yeah, they cost more, but as I was always told; " Ya' get what ya' pay for." 
Lest I be called a tool snob, my daily jigsaw now is a Craftsman that does alright, it just tends to deflect in anything thicker than 1/4", hence why I want to replace it with a Festool.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I bought a Festool TS75 track saw on an impulse....*

I was at the Performance Tool store where they have all sorts of Festools on display, and talked to Andy a pleasant guy with a good sales pitch, so I bought the large saw, the longest track, a medium track and a MFT table... all of which cost me somewhere around $1500.00. I've never used it, not even once. :no:

I would sell it today if I thought I could get a decent return. 

Here's my take on the whole subject of spending lots of money on tools.... the wood don't care what it gets cut with. A sharp blade or cutter on a spinning arbor that's true is all that matters, with one exception, dust collection. If the dust collection is the only difference then I would still not be persuaded. The fancy sustainer/container it came with probably cost $100 or so, maybe less, I donno? The tracks which are really fragile came in cardboard boxes, :thumbdown: so I made my own hardboard containers.

So what is the advantage? 
Even if I were on the site cutting plywood panels to fit a huge cabinet job, I'd probably want my table saw or a vertical panel saw. You have to measure 2X to set the track, so if your are off a tiny bit, the cut is off of parallel.

If I had a lot of routing to do I'd want my router table, not a hand held, so that would be in the truck also. I'd either set up shop on the site or have a work truck/trailer with all the machines and tools I need.

Sanding panels with a ROS is no fun anyway, but I'd rather be in the shop than on site. The shop might have a wide belt, but I do have a 24" dual drum for most cabinet door or panels. Dust collection is pretty good. Overhead air filtration helps a lot also.

So I don't really see huge advantages, cost to benefit ratio, but it may just be my work style, I donno?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

"So I don't really see huge advantages, cost to benefit ratio, but it may just be my work style, I donno?"

Larger machines are used for production not hobby shops. Different animal...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Warner I would hardly lump todays Festool products in with 'industrial quality'. From what Ive seen theyre made with just as much plastic as everything else nowadays.
> 
> My exaggerated sarcasm about them selling a TS meant that if youre spending the better part of $1000 for a circular saw you can buy a nice Grizz, PM, JET etc. for a little bit more or the same. The same grade TS from FT would probably run 20k. Sarcasm but true to an extent.


They do make a couple TS, they will be anywhere from 2k to 3k.

The topic of machinery was also brought up.

I have provided several examples of what they did make and what an actual Industrial saw will cost. 

All I have said the whole time is that 95% of the people that complain or bash or whatever you want to call it about festool, do it over the price, not about the actual tool. They are too expensive, no tool is worth that much, and so on.

That is why we have a large selection of throw away tools to chose from now and everyone is making cheap asian clone machinery.

I stiil have my grandfather's skill saw he bought in the late 40's, it still functions like it is supposed to. It cost him more then a weeks pay when he bought it. 

I doubt that new ryobi, B &d, skill, etc. circular saw that is available today, will be able to be used in 70+ years.


----------



## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chamfer said:


> From what Ive seen theyre made with just as much plastic as everything else nowadays


Why does everybody always say plastic like its a swear word? Properly done, plastic makes just as good a casing for a hand tool as steel would. Heck, for my money plastic is a better casing. Its lightweight, non conductive, and if I drop a plastic cased tool it bounces instead of denting. So long as the gearbox isnt plastic, plastic is aces


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

*"They do make a couple TS, they will be anywhere from 2k to 3k.

The topic of machinery was also brought up.

I have provided several examples of what they did make and what an actual Industrial saw will cost. 

All I have said the whole time is that 95% of the people that complain or bash or whatever you want to call it about festool, do it over the price, not about the actual tool. They are too expensive, no tool is worth that much, and so on.

That is why we have a large selection of throw away tools to chose from now and everyone is making cheap asian clone machinery.

I stiil have my grandfather's skill saw he bought in the late 40's, it still functions like it is supposed to. It cost him more then a weeks pay when he bought it. 

I doubt that new ryobi, B &d, skill, etc. circular saw that is available today, will be able to be used in 70+ years."*



Id be interested in seeing some pics of their current TS for $2-3k. Ive been on their website and searched as well and havent seen anything that resembles a current $2-3k TS. I did see a few pics of older cast iron beasts similar to the ones you posted.


And I wonder how your track saw will fair in 70+yrs?


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

epicfail48 said:


> Why does everybody always say plastic like its a swear word? Properly done, plastic makes just as good a casing for a hand tool as steel would. Heck, for my money plastic is a better casing. Its lightweight, non conductive, and if I drop a plastic cased tool it bounces instead of denting. So long as the gearbox isnt plastic, plastic is aces



Funny, my experience has been that plastic cracks and metal does not. Ive never seen a power tool made of all metal dent, nonetheless it would still be usable. When plastic housings crack usually that is not the case.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Id be interested in seeing some pics of their current TS for $2-3k. Ive been on their website and searched as well and havent seen anything that resembles a current $2-3k TS. I did see a few pics of older cast iron beasts similar to the ones you posted.
> 
> 
> And I wonder how your track saw will fair in 70+yrs?


Going to have to look in Europe to find them and they wont look like anything you have ever seen here.

I am pretty confident it will make it through my lifetime. I have had my hands on a few of their sanders from the 50's that are still going strong.

They never made an actual cast iron TS back then either. The pictures you saw probably had a festo feeder on them or something.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Funny, my experience has been that plastic cracks and metal does not. Ive never seen a power tool made of all metal dent, nonetheless it would still be usable. When plastic housings crack usually that is not the case.


I like the old metal housed tools, as long as they are grounded, but ABS plastic will hold up just as good and look better longer.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

*"All I have said the whole time is that 95% of the people that complain or bash or whatever you want to call it about festool, do it over the price, not about the actual tool. They are too expensive, no tool is worth that much, and so on.

That is why we have a large selection of throw away tools to chose from now and everyone is making cheap asian clone machinery.*"

I can easily agree with this comment as I spend a great deal of time on Ebay fighting tool collectors over vintage hand tools I need for work. They want to put it on a shelf and I want to put it to work.

In the last 15yrs everyone wanted the best bang for their buck. They got it and now complain. Finding a quality tool today will cost you, BUT NOT ALL ARE BAD.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Going to have to look in Europe to find them and they wont look like anything you have ever seen here.
> 
> I am pretty confident it will make it through my lifetime. I have had my hands on a few of their sanders from the 50's that are still going strong.
> 
> They never made an actual cast iron TS back then either. The pictures you saw probably had a festo feeder on them or something.





The main picture in this link is what I was referring to as 'old iron'. Looks like cast iron to me. Looks like you responded to the picture before too over on CT.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fes....com%2Ff40%2Fhey-festool-guy-91502%2F;500;330




Are the pictures around the main one of the European 'table saws' you were referring to?


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I like the old metal housed tools, as long as they are grounded, but ABS plastic will hold up just as good and look better longer.




Thats funny coming from a guy who said...




*"I get it. This place is a plastic table saw land."*


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Somehow I am reminded of the old fable about the fox and the grapes reading this thread.:icon_smile:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Mort said:


> I'm convinced that when Craftsman introduced their Evolv entry level brand, that's when their hand tools went to crap. Now they're all made in China because they build it to a price. The once mighty Craftsman hand tools don't look any better than a Pittsburgh from Horror Freight.



About the time they did introduce the evolv tools they did move some other things overseas like the ratchets, some of the wrenches, ect. 

Now there are still some things made in the USA, their wood chisels, still made in the USA, sockets that are in sets, still USA, and there are other items too. Also they've moved some things to Germany (better quality table saw blades), and some better router bits were made in Italy. Anyhow....there are still some decent craftsman stuff, you just need to know what you're looking at.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> ROS sander $195 for a tall clunky sander that is on the level with an $85 sander. $35 to replace the pad everyone else buys for $15.



Without actually using it you're assuming it's on par with an 85 dollar sander. I tried one at a "demo" days and it was much easier to use than even my low profile dewalt. The vibration was virtually non existent.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> The main picture in this link is what I was referring to as 'old iron'. Looks like cast iron to me. Looks like you responded to the picture before too over on CT.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=fes....com%2Ff40%2Fhey-festool-guy-91502%2F;500;330
> 
> ...



That is a tannewitz. You believe everything google come up with.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Thats funny coming from a guy who said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hand held power tools.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Ive never owned any of their tools because I have no need. My 120$ Dewalt CS with a 20$ Swanson alumin straight edge will do the same thing a FT track saw will. And if I were to try one out tomorrow and found it to be the absolute bee's knee's I still wouldnt buy one because I have an alternate method that works perfectly for far less.



But they aren't the same thing, a track saw and a circular saw are not the same. 

A track saw has plunge capability, a miter saw doesn't. The track saw has a zero clearance on the track, the circular saw doesn't. The track is faster to use than a guide and is a more precise way to cut a straight line. 

Now I'll give you both have the ability to cut a straight line, but so does a 5 dollar handsaw. It's comparing apples to oranges!!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Why does everybody always say plastic like its a swear word? Properly done, plastic makes just as good a casing for a hand tool as steel would. Heck, for my money plastic is a better casing. Its lightweight, non conductive, and if I drop a plastic cased tool it bounces instead of denting. So long as the gearbox isnt plastic, plastic is aces


I couldn't agree more. Why would you want to add weight to tools with no benefit. I've dropped a dewalt impact driver off a roof onto concrete, crawled down the ladder and found it in as good of shape as it was before it fell 12 feet (with the exception of a few scratches). Plastic isn't a bad thing.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Funny, my experience has been that plastic cracks and metal does not. Ive never seen a power tool made of all metal dent, nonetheless it would still be usable. When plastic housings crack usually that is not the case.


Metal cracks.....I recently had to have three metal parts recreated for my delta jointer as they had broken and were no longer available. metal cases on hand held tools would have to be very thin to be light enough to hold above your head while working on site, and would crack too if dropped.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You can't convince me... or anyone else.*

No one here will be convinced by anyone's best arguments. We have our minds made up, our positions are firmly held so further discussion is futile. :yes:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't know, I used to be in the "Festool is ridiculous" crowd, but after trying a few out, I came around. One of these days I intend to buy a track saw, and the sander is on my short list of things to buy...


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> No one here will be convinced by anyone's best arguments. We have our minds made up, our positions are firmly held so further discussion is futile. :yes:





Couldnt agree more. If it were up to me this thread would be locked. Nothings been really beneficial or informative since page one.

But there are folks that apparently feel otherwise.


And anyways, I still want to see a current Festool table saw. Apparently my search skills are beyond sub par.


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> And anyways, I still want to see a current Festool table saw. Apparently my search skills are beyond sub par.



I think they discontinued this one a few years back...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> I think they discontinued this one a few years back...



See next post.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Actually....it appears it's just not available in the US.....they have a whole line...

http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...egories/table-saws/semi-stationary-table-saws


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Couldnt agree more. If it were up to me this thread would be locked. Nothings been really beneficial or informative since page one.
> 
> But there are folks that apparently feel otherwise.
> 
> ...



Its been pretty good once you get past the constant complaining about how stuff costs too much and it can't be any better.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> Actually....it appears it's just not available in the US.....they have a whole line...
> 
> http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...egories/table-saws/semi-stationary-table-saws


I glanced over the first one and thought it was the cms module for the TS saws.

These are the Preciscio series.

They are what they call pull saws.

Mafell makes a similar unit called the Erkia I believe.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

There should be videos of their use on youtube.


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## Burb (Nov 30, 2012)

Like I said before, one of these days I'll be in a position where I can justify the cost of these. I do believe they are a reasonable value at their $$, but I still can't afford them.....yet.

Now, for anyone looking for a used Festool CMS-VL router table with the MFT/3 table and a Festool OF1400 router...

http://springfield.craigslist.org/tls/4869902639.html


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## asevereid (Apr 15, 2012)

There's a Kapex for sale on our local classifieds for $1450.00 CDN. 
No kidding, I would jump on it if I could.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> and the sander is on my short list of things to buy...


You and me both man, you and me both. The ets125 is only about $200, its within the realm of possibility...


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## Dixiereb31 (Nov 23, 2009)

I have never operated a Festool piece of equipment and can only rely on the word of others that have, that being said if you choose a Festool for your workshop, awesome. I think back to a P.T. Barnum quote about a fool and his money. But it is your money so go get it. I have had good luck with Makita, Milwaukee, etc. and will continue to support those brands. I guess I'm the fool now.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Dondi12 said:


> I have never operated a Festool piece of equipment and can only rely on the word of others that have, that being said if you choose a Festool for your workshop, awesome. I think back to a P.T. Barnum quote about a fool and his money. But it is your money so go get it. I have had good luck with Makita, Milwaukee, etc. and will continue to support those brands. I guess I'm the fool now.


You know, calling other people idiots for liking a different brand of tool won't win you very many friends around here


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## asevereid (Apr 15, 2012)

But where did he call anyone an idiot? 

I love this thread, it's a prime example of the best and worst that this forum offers. 
There's great discussion on the topic at hand, and then there's grudges bordering on the personal level. 
I can't think of any particular reason as to the cost of Festool products, but there is a value associated with them. 
As to the housings they have... Times change and not every high end tool needs to be wrapped in an alloy or metal. 
For the most part the end users of Festool products need to move that item around or use it for and extended period. 

I just don't get the opposition around here sometimes...


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Warner, is that one of the TS's you mentioned that are $2-3k?


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## imdskydiver (Apr 26, 2012)

I have a few Festool products and must admit that they are well made but I also think they are way over priced , I don't mind spending the money if Festool has a unique product that I just can't get somewhere else. The Kapax for example will be close to $1900.00 after Feb. in Canada. Throw In a stand and extensions and you are close to $3500.00 for a saw and stand. Now no one can tell me that that makes sense. I can get a Dewalt 780 with a stand for around $700.00, add a small 13" planer for another $700.00 a contractor saw for another $700.00 throw in a compressor and gun and throw in a Laugna 14" band saw and you are around the same price as the Kapex and stand. Please tell me who is going to be more productive with $3500.00


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

imdskydiver said:


> I have a few Festool products and must admit that they are well made but I also think they are way over priced , I don't mind spending the money if Festool has a unique product that I just can't get somewhere else. The Kapax for example will be close to $1900.00 after Feb. in Canada. Throw In a stand and extensions and you are close to $3500.00 for a saw and stand. Now no one can tell me that that makes sense. I can get a Dewalt 780 with a stand for around $700.00, add a small 13" planer for another $700.00 a contractor saw for another $700.00 throw in a compressor and gun and throw in a Laugna 14" band saw and you are around the same price as the Kapex and stand. Please tell me who is going to be more productive with $3500.00


But that's how everything starts. You don't like the price so they start making them in China and then you'll complain about the quality. I think its great that they hold there ground and set the pricing.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

imdskydiver said:


> I have a few Festool products and must admit that they are well made but I also think they are way over priced , I don't mind spending the money if Festool has a unique product that I just can't get somewhere else. The Kapax for example will be close to $1900.00 after Feb. in Canada. Throw In a stand and extensions and you are close to $3500.00 for a saw and stand. Now no one can tell me that that makes sense. I can get a Dewalt 780 with a stand for around $700.00, add a small 13" planer for another $700.00 a contractor saw for another $700.00 throw in a compressor and gun and throw in a Laugna 14" band saw and you are around the same price as the Kapex and stand. Please tell me who is going to be more productive with $3500.00


I guess the real difference here, is I use my tools to feed my family.

I want a light weight saw (47 pounds), compact saw, i want to cut in the room i am working in (dust extraction and time saved walking back and forth), i don't want to fiddle with my saw (6 years never had to adjust a thing). The rest of the features (dual lasers, best hold down clamp on any saw, variable speed, capacity, blade change ease, etc) are like sprinkles on the icing on the cake.

ROI is what matters to me, my biggest expense is my time, saving time keeps money in my pocket. 

It does make sense, it makes sense to a lot of people.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

asevereid said:


> But where did he call anyone an idiot?
> 
> I love this thread, it's a prime example of the best and worst that this forum offers.
> There's great discussion on the topic at hand, and then there's grudges bordering on the personal level.
> ...


There are a few that have trouble reading here and miss quote others often. 

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I guess the real difference here, is I use my tools to feed my family.
> 
> I want a light weight saw (47 pounds), compact saw, i want to cut in the room i am working in (dust extraction and time saved walking back and forth), i don't want to fiddle with my saw (6 years never had to adjust a thing). The rest of the features (dual lasers, best hold down clamp on any saw, variable speed, capacity, blade change ease, etc) are like sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
> 
> ...


Right. And I gave consideration to that point. The tools can be used by pros and for good reason. 

You surely can concede the cost of their tools is in fact hampered by their high taxes, VAT and Gov regs. 

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. And I gave consideration to that point. The tools can be used by pros and for good reason.
> 
> You surely can concede the cost of their tools is in fact hampered by their high taxes, VAT and Gov regs.
> 
> Al



Sure taxes and government regs affect prices....but they do on USA and Chinese made goods too.....it's not just europe that has taxes and fees...


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. And I gave consideration to that point. The tools can be used by pros and for good reason.
> 
> You surely can concede the cost of their tools is in fact hampered by their high taxes, VAT and Gov regs.
> 
> Al


VAT has nothing to do with the price here. Their tools are cheaper here then anywhere else, with currency conversion. 

Maybe if they didn't care about quality and manufactured them in a communist country sweat shop, but then they wouldn't be any better or any different.

There is no way to know what dictates their pricing structure, all anyone can do is speculate, guess and in this case complain.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> But that's how everything starts. You don't like the price so they start making them in China and then you'll complain about the quality. I think its great that they hold there ground and set the pricing.


You can't deny the fact that their base line costs are some of the highest in the world and they have to set their price with that cost to begin with. 

Here is another example of why costs in countries like these are high.

In Sweden if your a roofer it's against the law to work on cars even your own. Likewise, if your a mechanic your not allowed to repair your own roof and so on. This may be a good idea to insure each person has a job but it also keeps the price on a less than competitive level. These people also pay 37% sales tax. Germany it's 19% except on foods and certain items. Then it's reduced by 7%. Take a look their tax rate. They get hosed like people earning millions. Gaining an understanding for these tax amounts can tell the whole story.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/sales-tax-rate

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Sure taxes and government regs affect prices....but they do on USA and Chinese made goods too.....it's not just europe that has taxes and fees...


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/sales-tax-rate 

Ugh.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> VAT has nothing to do with the price here. Their tools are cheaper here then anywhere else, with currency conversion.
> 
> Maybe if they didn't care about quality and manufactured them in a communist country sweat shop, but then they wouldn't be any better or any different.
> 
> There is no way to know what dictates their pricing structure, all anyone can do is speculate, guess and in this case complain.


With all due respect. Yes we do. It's written in black and white or in this case red.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

You can't just use one tax rate as the whole cost.....Germany has a much lower Corporate Tax rate than we do here in the us, you also need to look at labor costs and all kinds of other things...

Now I don't disagree with you, it's more expensive to build most things in Europe than it is to build them in say....China....

But I think you'd agree, the quality of goods coming out of Germany is pretty darn good in most cases.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> With all due respect. Yes we do. It's written in black and white or in this case red.
> 
> Al


Great, you know what the income and corporate tax rate is. 

Manufactured goods exported here from Germany are not affected by Value Added Tax. 

Are you an expert on German Corporate tax laws now? 

Price = Materials+Overhead+Profit. 

There is no way to determine all the factors that drive their prices.

Does the price of their tools bother you that much?


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

This thread is already 5 pages long. Lets not add more pages for arguing.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*3 topics that cause arguing*

Saw Stop, Festool, and Radial Arm Saws :furious:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Saw Stop, Festool, and Radial Arm Saws :furious:



Let's not forget to add craftsman and harbor freight to the list...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Still sounds like the conversation is about the price, which is exactly what the OP was about.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> With all due respect. Yes we do. It's written in black and white or in this case red.
> 
> Al


VAT tariffs and taxes effect everyone. And they are passed on to the consumer at every level. 

Al


----------



## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Let's not forget to add craftsman and harbor freight to the list...


Lets just add peoples opinions on tools in general


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Saw Stop, Festool, and Radial Arm Saws do not cause arguments, people do.:laughing:


----------



## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

Wow... I leave for a weekend to hack and slash some purpleheart and I come back to this! I love the debates and all the information being presented and different cases being made. I do not mind the 5 pages at all! Information is knowledge and I am gaining more!

This is the conclusion I have come to after reading what everyone has said...

If I was a contractor (like Warner) where time is money and every minute costs me, I can see paying for a tool that 1) works amazing (I don't think anyone has argued that a Festool products doesn't work as good if not better than top line Makits, Milwakee etc) and 2) you don't have to worry about dying on your or requires much maintenance.

My personal opinion on this matter:

I am a hobbiest. I doubt I will ever be anything more than that. Maybe I could one day sell a few pieces here and there but I doubt it will be my main source of income. The way my lifestyle is and what I foresee it to be in the future, I cannot justify spending multiple thousands of dollars on tools that I can get at a cheaper price, and lower quality and/or lifetime than a Festool. Part of this is just how I was raised and the way I look at money. If I was to win $100,000,000 I would not buy a mansion. I wouldn't see the point. I can only use so much of the house, what is the purpose of the other 10,000 square feet. So ever if I had the money, I just don't think I could see myself getting a Festool product. 

Its really interesting to see how peoples past and current situations affect how people think about thing


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Still sounds like the conversation is about the price, which is exactly what the OP was about.


Warner it's about the whopping enormous giant out of this world price. Kind of hard to over look a price that's three times higher than tools that are really good tools. 

I sat down and did some research and read some reviews. None of them stated the tool was THREE TIMES AS GOOD. Some tools were a toss up (track saws, sanders and routers). None of the reviews said the tool was so superior the choice was clear. Some said you would in fact have to overlook the price. That's the rub.

If someone buys a Crapsman over a Bosch or DeWalt over $40 dollars difference, I'm in with the price only argument. There's nothing to talk about but price when the tool goes into the times factor. 

People don't stand in the parking lot and flip a coin to decide if they are going to buy a Benz or a Caddy. 

Again, nothing wrong with the tool to me except I also don't like the handles and having my hands tied when I purchase paper and ad on's. Pray you don't drop it and need parts. Ouch!

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Saw Stop, Festool, and Radial Arm Saws do not cause arguments, people do.:laughing:


Neither do biscuit joiners, pocket holes and tools sold at clothing stores. 

Al


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Actually, parts are fairly cheap and i have dropped lots of my festool's, with no damage occuring. Parts are available for at least 10 years after a tool is obsolete. I have had one tool that needed repaired in 8 years. I actually use them and use them pretty hard.

Al hates the price, got it.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Its not about hating the price, its about what warrants it.


And for more people than not, there is nothing.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> If someone buys a Crapsman over a Bosch or DeWalt over $40 dollars difference, I'm in with the price only argument. There's nothing to talk about but price when the tool goes into the times factor.
> 
> 
> Al



Couldn't agree more.....

Bandsaws....

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/824315/Powermatic-14-Bandsaw-Model-PWBS-14CS.aspx

Not 3 times 

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-14-inch-band-saw/p-00932607000P?adCell=REC_1_0



tablesaws....


http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/83...aw-w50-Accu-Fence-System-and-Rout-R-Lift.aspx

or 

http://www.rockler.com/delta-unisaw-tablesaw-3-hp-with-52-biesemeyer-fence-system-model-36-l352-2


Not 3 times


http://grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLX


Routers....

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/143163WH/Porter-Cable-1-34-HP-Router-Model-690LR.aspx

Not 2.5 times 

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-9.5-amp-1-3-4-hp-fixed-base/p-00902767000P


Couldn't agree more.....tools that are multiple times the price of a good alternative often aren't worth it....


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I cant afford cheap tools.


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I wont give away money for over priced tools.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I think we figured out your veiw about 5 pages back, anything constructive to add or just more of the same over priced yadda, yadda.

If you actually had first hand experience it would be different.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm also a professional and I can't see spending the prices for Festool. They may be good tools but I will never know. I can get everything done I need with cheap tools.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Here's what we have learned...Warner and a few others believe they're the cats meow.....Al, Steve and Chamfer think they're outrageous. A few of the rest of us think they're great tools, and would consider some. 


Some think they can do anything with 100 bucks of tools, others need 50k worth of tools. Some like new tools, some won't use a tool unless it's 5000 lbs. most of us are somewhere in the middle. 


We've made it nowhere in a while...lets just all be friends and let it go!!!


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I think we figured out your veiw about 5 pages back, anything constructive to add or just more of* the its the greatest thing since sliced bread* yadda, yadda.




Hey pot! Its me kettle.... 






WarnerConstInc. said:


> If you actually had first hand experience it would be different.




I addressed that as well a couple of pages ago.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I answered questions and stated why I find their prices just, never went on about them being this and that and better then this or that. 

If you take it that way fine, but if all you can add to it, is they are overpriced (over and over again) what good is that?

Like I said, its the typical theme for any Festool thread on most hobby type forums. Everyone bashes the prices, but does so without ever actually using the tools. 5 minutes at a dealer does not count, nor make you an expert.


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## Brentley (Dec 2, 2012)

I skimmed through this thread and it does like similar to most festool threads that you see in other internet forums.

There is the wow, it is expensive camp, and then there is the "yes but it is awesome" camp. 

When you look at why it is expensive, (made in Germany with their expensive labor market, MAP pricing, dealer network, support etc.) it is pretty clear that they are carrying a very high margin. Whether or not that you want to contribute to that margin is really a personal decision.

As an end user if you use multiple festool products together you really begin to see how they are designed as a system and not as individual tools and how you can re-use some parts in multiple steps. This assumes that you are doing a workflow or scenario that Festool is designed for and enhances (like on-site custom cabinets with little to no dust). If your work doesn't take advantage of the high points of the Festool workflow then they are most likely not for you. 

The very high end pro contractor store here in Berkeley (high end home construction/remodel) sells a lot of festool to the locals. So clearly there are some pros that really like them. 

Anyway, it is a very personal choice.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Some think they can do anything with 100 bucks of tools, others need 50k worth of tools. Some like new tools, some won't use a tool unless it's 5000 lbs. most of us are somewhere in the middle. /QUOTE]
> 
> You forgot the other two categories, the people who think that you cant do good work unless you have 50k worth of tools and the people that think youre an idiot for buying a different brand of tool!
> 
> Im getting really tires of seeing "Crapsman". Quit dissing my tools!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm getting tired of seeing Crapsman too. It's brand bashing and shouldn't be done.


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## imdskydiver (Apr 26, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I guess the real difference here, is I use my tools to feed my family.
> 
> I want a light weight saw (47 pounds), compact saw, i want to cut in the room i am working in (dust extraction and time saved walking back and forth), i don't want to fiddle with my saw (6 years never had to adjust a thing). The rest of the features (dual lasers, best hold down clamp on any saw, variable speed, capacity, blade change ease, etc) are like sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
> 
> ...


No difference here : i've just been doing it longer than you . I always buy quality tools but sometimes **** happens ! The tools i buy can be repaired locally , i don't have to ship my tools across the country to get fixed . As far as feeding my family goes i do well just on the savings i get from buying something other than Festool products alone !
As far as the Kapex goes , It only has a 10 " blade , it will not cut a 4" block of wood , it's dust collecting might be better than my 780 but only marginally, Lasers! never use them , my eye is more accurate , hold down clamp , who cares ! blade change , whopee ding!
while your setting up all that stuff i am just being more productive than you !


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Brentley,

The aristocrats in the Peoples Republic of California don't count when compared to us peasants in the rest of the kingdom. 

HJ

Thought "uncommon" meant richer, til I found out it could mean the opposite too


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> ryan50hrl said:
> 
> 
> > Some think they can do anything with 100 bucks of tools, others need 50k worth of tools. Some like new tools, some won't use a tool unless it's 5000 lbs. most of us are somewhere in the middle. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm getting tired of seeing Crapsman too. It's brand bashing and shouldn't be done.


While I do use the word often. It was taught to me by the guys that actually own or have owned the tools. It was in the past a term that was not meant to bash but to brag that they had the tools and knew they weren't the greatest. Which is very honest and on the level. It just gets silly when guys are shouting from the mountain tops that they have a tool that in fact, hung the moon.

BTW my spell check pops the word up and I just let it fly. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

imdskydiver said:


> No difference here : i've just been doing it longer than you . I always buy quality tools but sometimes **** happens ! The tools i buy can be repaired locally , i don't have to ship my tools across the country to get fixed . As far as feeding my family goes i do well just on the savings i get from buying something other than Festool products alone !
> As far as the Kapex goes , It only has a 10 " blade , it will not cut a 4" block of wood , it's dust collecting might be better than my 780 but only marginally, Lasers! never use them , my eye is more accurate , hold down clamp , who cares ! blade change , whopee ding!
> while your setting up all that stuff i am just being more productive than you !


Whopee ding? That's so funny. 

When I found out about the 10" cap. I knew that one was a bust.

thanks

Al


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Keep it up guys, only 9 more posts to beat the count from the last thread on this.:laughing:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I answered questions and stated why I find their prices just, never went on about them being this and that and better then this or that.
> 
> If you take it that way fine, but if all you can add to it, is they are overpriced (over and over again) what good is that?
> 
> Like I said, its the typical theme for any Festool thread on most hobby type forums. Everyone bashes the prices, but does so without ever actually using the tools. 5 minutes at a dealer does not count, nor make you an expert.


Actually 5 minutes at the dealer does give me enough time to decide if I want a plastic tool that is not to my liking. I played with them before I knew what the price was as they were not marked and seeing them in the supply house was the first time I laid eyes on them. I thought from first glance they were cheap toy home owner line. Sorry just my first impression. 

Sure it's a typical theme and that lends itself to be closer to the truth. Or are we all wrong?

Bashing the price? The price stands high on the hill with a semaphore light over it. Let's be honest with each other.

Al

You know I use Japanese saws because I like the way they work too. $$$$ well spent.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I will quote myself*



woodnthings said:


> No one here will be convinced by anyone's best arguments. We have our minds made up, our positions are firmly held so further discussion is futile. :yes:


This "discussion" is pointless and now borders on ridiculous ... over 122 posts and still going. :thumbdown:

If you like and can afford and need a Festool, buy one.:yes:
If you don't even own one, you have no skin in this game, so what's the basis for your contribution? An opinion based on no first hand experience is just that, "opinion" no basis in fact.

As far as Craftsman power tools, I own about 5 radial arms saws, and about 4 table saws, so far all work great after 25 - 35 years of use. Yes, they have made some crap but they only were keeping up with the competition .... :thumbdown: You can't judge a tool by it's brand name alone, only how it performs and you are the best judge of that in your own shop under your own conditions.

My best table saw is a $3500 Powermatic 12" 5 HP, my "worst" a 12" Craftsman 4 HP, bought used for $180. The wood can't tell the difference which saw cut it....just sayin'


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> This "discussion" is pointless and now borders on ridiculous ... over 122 posts and still going. :thumbdown:
> 
> If you like and can afford and need a Festool, buy one.:yes:
> If you don't even own one, you have no skin in this game, so what's the basis for your contribution? An opinion based on no first hand experience is just that, "opinion" no basis in fact.
> ...


Curious, what do you do with 5 radial arm saws? I bought a second one and have been wondering if I should pack the old one away.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> . I thought from first glance they were cheap toy home owner line. Sorry just my first impression.
> 
> 
> Al.



Probably the first time I've ever seen anyone compare festool to a cheap homeowner line.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> While I do use the word often. It was taught to me by the guys that actually own or have owned the tools. It was in the past a term that was not meant to bash but to brag that they had the tools and knew they weren't the greatest. Which is very honest and on the level. It just gets silly when guys are shouting from the mountain tops that they have a tool that in fact, hung the moon
> 
> Al



Except that a whole bunch of guys with craftsman routers, saws and other tools dispute your "fact" that they're junk...guys that are actual owners and users. 

Remember...it hasn't been that long in history since people still claimed the earth was flat...they sounded ridiculous too every time they made the claim...eventually their insistence on a point long ago proven wrong made them irrelevant as well...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Curious, what do you do with 5 radial arm saws? I bought a second one and have been wondering if I should pack the old one away.



lol...5 does seem excessive to me. But if I had the shop space maybe not??


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't use them all for sure*



Steve Neul said:


> Curious, what do you do with 5 radial arm saws? I bought a second one and have been wondering if I should pack the old one away.


My "plan" was to set 3 of them all on one 9 ft table, and use each different one for dados, crosscuts, whatever. I got as far as setting them up and the table became a table in the truest sense. :thumbdown:

I inherited an old "60's model, in the gold paint, which I used just briefly and it's now in storage and probably will get sold.

I use the other 2 in the shop, a 12" for crosscutting at 90 degrees only, the other a 10" for dados, and my radial arm router. By using only the carriage/motors from them allows me to interchange functions without taking up the floor space with an additional saw.
The 10" motor/carriages and 12" are interchangeable. 

I just remembered I used a motor/carriage in my shop built vertical panel saw: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/panel-saw/










You can't have too many radial arm saws, table saws, battery powered drills and impacts, circ saws, saw blades, etc.... :blink:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Keep it up guys, only 9 more posts to beat the count from the last thread on this.:laughing:


Right. Then we'll all slide over to the biscuit joiner thread where the dowel and Kreg jig guys hang out. After that it's the all important "what should I finish my cutting board with" thread. 

Al


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

When you purchase Festool or Apple products you are paying not only for the tool but for the R&D that goes into the development.

If it was not for Festool developing the tracksaw for instance there would have been nothing for the other lesser priced brands to copy and we still would be running a skillsaw along a 1x4.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

This is a fun thread. EVERY forum for every subject has its hot button doesn’t it? EVERY forum has its keyboard cowboys as well doesn’t it? I don’t wish to pick a fight but I suspect this might…so be it. I don’t make my living with these sorts of tools. This is a hobby for me. I make a decent living so I can buy nicer toys than I have been able to in the past and the evolution of my ‘shop’ can bear witness to this pattern. Were money no object I might have the best of the best and spares…even then though, I don’t think I could justify everything that said Festool just cause it said Festool. 

There is a definable psychology associated with price of goods and services. Marketing professionals are acutely aware of these phenomena and they exploit them to great advantage. Sometimes its easier to identify when you examine it from a different industry than the one in which you are passionate. Go forth and do that to see for yourself and see if you can find it in action. That said, this is WoodworkingTalk so lets stick to that genre. The folks at Festool have their posted ‘advantages’ and perhaps to some they are worth that massive delta. Value is subjective in many cases. Features vs Benefits must be examined. In those quantifiable, not subjective, instances however it all really boils down to marketing and it works differently on certain types of folks than others. While tools such as the Kapex MAY have an advantage or two on the #2 on their respective podium you will be hard pressed to justify the delta between a good off the shelf 18v drill and the $510 counterpart from Festool just as an example. 

You know what the Black & Decker at Walmart costs vs the Dewalt (or whatever) at Lowes Depot (see what I did there  ) Those are easily identifiable and justifiable differences. Not even the highest end off-the-shelf drills are even approaching the $510 tag of the Festool T18. The price delta here is gigantic! You recognize that immediately and you have to ask the question, just what the hell is the difference? 

Lets see, first, if you like the fast change bit thing then you have to use their proprietary bits with it and they are not cheap or widely available which is awesome. Sure, you can use regular fast change bits…after you purchase an adaptor for $25. That’s better, definitely cause I like having adaptors. 
OH OH OH…its got clever little swappable chucks for odd jobs…and they are available for an additional $125 as a kit for two of them or $120 each after POS. That’s awesome. Why buy another drill to do right angles that comes with another battery and charger (who needs extra batteries anyway am I right !?!? ) when you can have just another chuck for more money?

Must have more torque and RPM’s right? Nope. 
Bet it has better run times and faster charge times…oh, what, it doesn’t? Okay, that’s not their fault cause chemistry is chemistry and stuff like that. 

Surely its got a killer warranty? Like lifetime right, on everything? Nope, two notable off the shelf systems have lifetime warranty on the tool these days, including the batteries (and I suspect more to follow) Festool warranties their products and batteries for three years…sometime afterwards the batteries should start to wear out cause, well, you know, that’s the whole chemistry thing again and it’s a bitch.

I will give them this…at least their batteries are not any more or less expensive than anyone else’s really…except that you only need to buy additional batteries if you WANT to and not cause they have worn out with two off the shelf brands of which I am aware.
An attempt to explain that marketing psychology from a different industry perspective if you will…a photography colleague (a former pro I am) of mine did a little marketing experiment several years back. He formed a second LLC in his wife’s maiden name and to accompany the original in his name in order that they may have two completely separate company identities. One was marketed at the typical and average wedding market and the other was at the very high end boutique market. One charged market average for the services and the other was about three times market average. He booked more weddings by volume under the ‘higher end’ company than the other. There was ZERO difference between the two apart from the marketing engines…ZERO! This was his only source of income. For me it was a part time gig for a number of reasons. We had one son and just got pregnant with twins when I bailed out of plans to do exactly what he did…I just didn’t have time for a second gig anymore. Since then digital has destroyed the wedding market so his ‘average’ LLC is no more and he now just shoots off the high end and has a day job…such is life.

Are Festools products ACTUALLY worth the price differences of the presumed respective “#2” ? That has to be PURELY subjective and boils down to opinion in many cases. You put a master craftsman behind a Black & Decker and he will stomp on the hobbyist with a garage full of Festool. It’s the person behind the tool, not the tool itself that matters. Don’t think so? Come on over and I’ll hand you a professional level Nikon DSLR and I will out shoot you with my friggin phone.

Point of all this is that sometimes just marketing at a much higher price than the market average will fetch you a healthy margin…which is a damn good thing while it lasts. For Festool it has lasted almost $100 years. They are a private company so they can continue to do things as they see fit. They enjoy a reputation that is well earned and apparently are happy in the niche they live. Kuddos to them. Folks pay top dollar for high end DVI cables with names like Audioquest and Kimber as well no matter that the in the box cable with your new Bluray is 100% equal to the task. That sort of talk will start arguments in other forums. Don’t matter what the testing equipment says either. They CAN see and hear a difference in that stream of 0’s and 1’s and those companies are happy to take their money to provide that service. So too does Festool…in MY opinion.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Except that a whole bunch of guys with craftsman routers, saws and other tools dispute your "fact" that they're junk...guys that are actual owners and users.
> 
> Remember...it hasn't been that long in history since people still claimed the earth was flat...they sounded ridiculous too every time they made the claim...eventually their insistence on a point long ago proven wrong made them irrelevant as well...


You and your buddy need to stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said they were junk never called anyone a name. I've never said Craftsman tools were anything. AGAIN put up or shut up.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> When you purchase Festool or Apple products you are paying not only for the tool but for the R&D that goes into the development.
> 
> If it was not for Festool developing the tracksaw for instance there would have been nothing for the other lesser priced brands to copy and we still would be running a skillsaw along a 1x4.


I like the skill saw on the 1/4" Masonite with a one by fence screwed to it. But I stopped using them when I got a panel saw. But thanks so much Fe$tool.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MrZ2u said:


> This is a fun thread. EVERY forum for every subject has its hot button doesn’t it? EVERY forum has its keyboard cowboys as well doesn’t it? I don’t wish to pick a fight but I suspect this might…so be it. I don’t make my living with these sorts of tools. This is a hobby for me. I make a decent living so I can buy nicer toys than I have been able to in the past and the evolution of my ‘shop’ can bear witness to this pattern. Were money no object I might have the best of the best and spares…even then though, I don’t think I could justify everything that said Festool just cause it said Festool.
> 
> There is a definable psychology associated with price of goods and services. Marketing professionals are acutely aware of these phenomena and they exploit them to great advantage. Sometimes its easier to identify when you examine it from a different industry than the one in which you are passionate. Go forth and do that to see for yourself and see if you can find it in action. That said, this is WoodworkingTalk so lets stick to that genre. The folks at Festool have their posted ‘advantages’ and perhaps to some they are worth that massive delta. Value is subjective in many cases. Features vs Benefits must be examined. In those quantifiable, not subjective, instances however it all really boils down to marketing and it works differently on certain types of folks than others. While tools such as the Kapex MAY have an advantage or two on the #2 on their respective podium you will be hard pressed to justify the delta between a good off the shelf 18v drill and the $510 counterpart from Festool just as an example.
> 
> ...


Well written and perfectly easy to understand. I'm sure we all can agree.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Probably the first time I've ever seen anyone compare festool to a cheap homeowner line.


You need to read a little more others have shared this impression at first glance. And then there's those little tables with wobbly legs. 

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> You need to read a little more others have shared this impression at first glance. And then there's those little tables with wobbly legs.
> 
> Al



Really? I've seen others say it's plastic, but I'm not aware of any comparing it to the black and deckers, craftsman, kobalt or chicago electric...all what I'd consider homeowner grade tools.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this one?*



Al B Thayer said:


> You need to read a little more others have shared this impression at first glance. And then there's those little tables with wobbly legs.
> 
> Al


http://www.amazon.com/Festool-MFT-3-Multifunction-Table/dp/B002W7TLAY

I can assure you this table does not have wobbly legs, the owner possibly, but not the table..... just sayin'
I own one. It is built like a tank an almost as heavy.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

FrankC said:


> When you purchase Festool or Apple products you are paying not only for the tool but for the R&D that goes into the development.
> 
> If it was not for Festool developing the tracksaw for instance there would have been nothing for the other lesser priced brands to copy and we still would be running a skillsaw along a 1x4.


R&D you say...that track saw was released in 1964...not sure which month so lets just round down and say 50 years ago. It also makes the assumption that nobody else would have developed one like it and that feels pretty unlikely. 

Know who else charges more to recoup their R&D...and a lot more at that. Pharmaceutical companies. When they do that everyone pisses and moans about it, even to the point of seeking government intervention and in many countries get it? Its to the point that the companies bilk those of us in the US more to make up the difference left by the countries that refuse to pay list. Why? Because we "can afford it"?

I am picking on the drill because its a good example IMO. What innovations have they made to the humble 18v electric drill that command more than 3X the cost of others?


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

FrankC said:


> Keep it up guys, only 9 more posts to beat the count from the last thread on this.:laughing:


Just for the record...doe this put us eight or nine over the last thread on this subject ?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> You and your buddy need to stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said they were junk never called anyone a name. I've never said Craftsman tools were anything. AGAIN put up or shut up.
> 
> Al


 


Al B Thayer said:


> There is nothing obsolete about the 690 and other routers continue to copy it. It's the gold standard. Thats why every aftermarket attachment is made to fit the 690. Crapsman isn't even in the same game. They have no guts and cheap bearings and windings. The last Crapsman I had flew apart on a dovetail cut.
> 
> Al




Example one.





Al B Thayer said:


> 1 3/4 hp is just that nothing more nothing less. PC came out with the first soft start and that model also remains the industry standard. If someone wants a router that wont let them down like the Crapsman will and fits any aftermarket attachment. Made with higher satandards than Crapsman. And wants a router in the right size to do 95% of all the routing needed. Best off if they put a little extra money into a solid router. This is where you get what you pay for. Why go cheap here. It's one thing to buy tools that are cheaper, I get that. But simply crazy to then stand on a soap box and bang the drum about how good they are. Tool reviews don't seem to bang the same drum.
> 
> There's also no way you can trust Crapsman to be giving you real hp ratings because they never have in the past. That's one of the ways they get you. It's always been that way.
> 
> Al





Example two


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

MrZ2u said:


> I am picking on the drill because its a good example IMO. What innovations have they made to the humble 18v electric drill that command more than 3X the cost of others?


Brushless for one, although others are starting to catch on (those companies prices are higher then their regular model drill)

I also think you are looking at the set prices, which include a 90 degree chuck, an eccentric chuck, a 1/2" keyless chuck and their centrotec chuck and bit holder.

The 90 degree chuck an eccentric chuck have saved my ass numerous times and turned what could have been a difficult, time consuming task into something quick an easy. 

My oldest drill is aproaching 8 years old and is still running on the same battery's.

I have a makita set that has been through two in three years.

All the drill controls are solid state, have built in over load protection (prevent overheating and making that magic smoke) the drill also monitors the battery level and temperature. 

There are a few things.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Brushless for one, although others are starting to catch on (those companies prices are higher then their regular model drill)
> 
> I also think you are looking at the set prices, which include a 90 degree chuck, an eccentric chuck, a 1/2" keyless chuck and their centrotec chuck and bit holder.
> 
> The 90 degree chuck an eccentric chuck have saved my ass numerous times and turned what could have been a difficult, time consuming task into something quick an easy.


Nope, $510 for drill, 2x batt and charger. $635 to add the two extra chucks you reference and that makes it 4x the price.






WarnerConstInc. said:


> My oldest drill is aproaching 8 years old and is still running on the same battery's.
> 
> I have a makita set that has been through two in three years.
> 
> ...


...and these justify more than 3x the cost in any way other than purely subjective? How much better does it make holes?


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

thats the crux of it for me... these are tools, they are not stratocaster guitars or exotic automobiles, they are not computers or space ships. They are really very simple mechanical devices who's cost is almost entirely raw materials and tooling. they make holes, and they are all about the same...

if 635 bucks is worth the ecentric and 90 chuck, Im not sure there is another option on the market. Ill work around it for 400 bucks. Thats a personal choice though.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Much nicer to use all day long. The 90 degree chuck keeps me from carrying another tool with me, i can pop the keyless chuck off, pop on the driver, go right back to the keyless chuck, etc.

Makes a big difference installing cabinets, installing hard wood decking all day, etc.

I have had almost every kind of cordless drill, the festool drills are by far my favorite to use for 8 hours a day.

A few weeks ago i used my 4 speed 18v festool drill to bore 1 1/4" holes 48" deep in the end of a 6x6. I tried my brushless 18v makita, it gave up quickly.

The festool would do 1 1/2 holes on one charge.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> A few weeks ago i used my 4 speed 18v festool drill to bore 1 1/4" holes 48" deep in the end of a 6x6. I tried my brushless 18v makita, it gave up quickly.





Anyone else besides me not seeing a 4ft long bit of any kind being used in a cordless drill?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Anyone else besides me not seeing a 4ft long bit of any kind being used in a cordless drill?



I've used a 2 1/2 inch bit in my 18v dewalt to drill through stacked railroad ties. 

Also I know a couple guys using 18 & 20v dewalts with these.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> Anyone else besides me not seeing a 4ft long bit of any kind being used in a cordless drill?


18" ships auger plus two 18" extensions. 

I was on top of 3 flights of scaffolding as well.

You are right, its actually 54".


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Example one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still don't see me calling them junk. Accurate descriptions but never junk or any of the other thing you say I said. You have trouble reading.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> thats the crux of it for me... these are tools, they are not stratocaster guitars or exotic automobiles, they are not computers or space ships. They are really very simple mechanical devices who's cost is almost entirely raw materials and tooling. they make holes, and they are all about the same...
> 
> if 635 bucks is worth the ecentric and 90 chuck, Im not sure there is another option on the market. Ill work around it for 400 bucks. Thats a personal choice though.


Well said. and 2 shay.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Really? I've seen others say it's plastic, but I'm not aware of any comparing it to the black and deckers, craftsman, kobalt or chicago electric...all what I'd consider homeowner grade tools.


Well now you are.

That's so funny. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Chamfer said:


> Anyone else besides me not seeing a 4ft long bit of any kind being used in a cordless drill?


I'm calling BS on those also. Gees.

Al


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but it happened. it was never the plan from the begining, but when you can't fish your LV wires between the post and the wrap because the post twisted so much, you get desperate.

A flexible 48" bit blew out the side and caused rework on one. 

It was use the 18v cordless or tempt my life with my hole hawg.


----------



## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

I kinda doubt that the actual power of a festool drill is notably stronger than a top end brushless drill from another maker. 

if that matters, I mean... how often do you turn an auger on a cordless drill? the fact that you can kinda shows how ridiculous the power in these are anyway.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)




----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

bauerbach said:


> I kinda doubt that the actual power of a festool drill is notably stronger than a top end brushless drill from another maker.
> 
> if that matters, I mean... how often do you turn an auger on a cordless drill? the fact that you can kinda shows how ridiculous the power in these are anyway.



Like I said, Others are catching up with the brushless now. 

The Milwaukee fuel series is a pretty nice drill, but last I checked the drill was around 300 bucks. Brushless will give you more power and longer run time compared to a conventional brushed drill.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*drilling this hole*

Drilling a hole like this still only requires enough power to turn the bit regardless of it's length. If it will turn a 3" long bit it will turn one that's 48" long. The wood at the auger end doesn't know the length of the drill ...just sayin'


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Still don't see me calling them junk. Accurate descriptions but never junk or any of the other thing you say I said. You have trouble reading.



Crapsman isn't even in the same game. They have no guts and cheap bearings and windings.


Which current Craftsman router did you disassemble to find such cheap bearings and windings?? Cause your 30 year old one doesn't count as modern.... Sure looks like you're calling them junk here...


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Sorry to disappoint you guys, but it happened. it was never the plan from the begining, but when you can't fish your LV wires between the post and the wrap because the post twisted so much, you get desperate.
> 
> A flexible 48" bit blew out the side and caused rework on one.
> 
> It was use the 18v cordless or tempt my life with my hole hawg.



Apparently since someone else didn't do it.....it didn't happen.....:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> Drilling a hole like this still only requires enough power to turn the bit regardless of it's length. If it will turn a 3" long bit it will turn one that's 48" long. The wood at the auger end doesn't know the length of the drill ...just sayin'


Try it with your 18v drill. My Makita couldn't do it (18v brushless).

That is a big, deep hole in end grain of a PT 6x6 post.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Never knew what a Festool was, and after all this bs - I don't really care now either. Just add one more number to the thread!

HJ

Will just keep plugging along as always and make do with what I got and spend what I think something is worth for what it does


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My 18 volt Bosch will easily run 1-1/2 screw fed auger bits.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no doubt you drilled the hole*



WarnerConstInc. said:


> Try it with your 18v drill. My Makita couldn't do it (18v brushless).
> 
> That is a big, deep hole in end grain of a PT 6x6 post.


No doubt it was a difficult operation, maybe even for a corded drill. I may have oversimplified the condition, not taking into account the friction of the bit on the sides of the hole and removing the chips.

My Dewalt 18V has a 3 speed transmission which increases the torque on low speed, so it's got quite a bit of grunt.

My longest ship's auger is 18" and the diameter is 1 1/4" and I know it is a handful rather armful to control if it gets stopped for any reason when drilling a hole. It will break your wrist if you are not prepared, so I prefer using a 2 handed method. I normally use a corded drill with the assist handle for that auger bit, drilling floor joists, sometimes doubles.


----------



## Brentley (Dec 2, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I've used a 2 1/2 inch bit in my 18v dewalt to drill through stacked railroad ties.
> 
> Also I know a couple guys using 18 & 20v dewalts with these.
> View attachment 133641


I live in CA so I have to ask is that an ice auger for ice fishing?


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Brentley said:


> I live in CA so I have to ask is that an ice auger for ice fishing?



Yes...we'll get between 18-36 inches on most lakes most years. Last winter we had lakes with more than 42 inches of ice.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I've used a 2 1/2 inch bit in my 18v dewalt to drill through stacked railroad ties.
> 
> Also I know a couple guys using 18 & 20v dewalts with these.
> View attachment 133641





Sorry...should have said 2.5 foot...not inch.


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Festool is introducing the hand held Conturo Edge Bander in the US this March. Pricing not posted but should keep this thread going for a while longer.


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## imdskydiver (Apr 26, 2012)

It looks like a nice tool. It is around $3900.00


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

It's available now and I'm pulling the trigger on that one.

Al


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> It's available now and I'm pulling the trigger on that one.
> 
> Al


Not until March 16th.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

I dont do edge banding, but if I did... that strikes me as a unique tool. $3900 is alot of money to most, but you cant debate value if it has no competition.

That seems to be Festools niche though. $650 drill? well, show me the cheaper drill with swappable bits... 

do swappable bits matter? they do to some people.

Id love to see their jigsaw in action... strobe light synced to the blade speed so the blade appears still... thats got to be a trip.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

unclefester said:


> Festool is introducing the hand held Conturo Edge Bander in the US this March. Pricing not posted but should keep this thread going for a while longer.


I feel for the sucker that buys that....

I used a CEHISA EP-9 for 6yrs. Ran perfectly bought new 11yrs ago for 36K sold $3,000 a little over a yr ago. $36k for an edge bander is considered the bottom of the barrel in the industry.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would rather use this edgebander.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Yes yes...without ever seeing a tool make up your mind.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

There are a couple other portable edge banders on the market. Prices are pretty much in line. 

The nice thing about it, is way less up keep and maintenance vs. a stand alone unit, but it can't produce like a big machine. it can do inside curves, outside curves and it can also do bevels and compound bevels. 

As far as drills, my brushless makita set has already cost me as much as my C12 in less then half the time.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I had to turn the strobe light off on my jigsaws, it drove me nuts. It does work like advertised though.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Yes yes...without ever seeing a tool make up your mind.


 I saw it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPbl5btq0J0


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I would rather use this edgebander.


Let me guess? Harbor Freight?

Al


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Let me guess? Harbor Freight?
> 
> Al


Google http://virutex.com/edgebandingsystem.aspx


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I saw it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPbl5btq0J0



Cause YouTube is always a replacement for actually using a tool...


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Cause YouTube is always a replacement for actually using a tool...


I've been around for more than 40 years. I've used an actual edgebander and have also used a hot air edgebander. Watching the video was enough to tell me all I needed to know.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I've been around for more than 40 years. I've used an actual edgebander and have also used a hot air edgebander. Watching the video was enough to tell me all I needed to know.



Why does everyone assume that age is a replacement for experience and knowledge? Ask an IT guy how their field has changed in 40 years...how about realtors? How about car sales? How about mechanics? Fighter pilots? And yes...even carpenters. Times and tools have changed. No ones saying you have to change, no ones saying you have to buy new tools, but claiming new stuff is not as good as old tools without ever trying them is like saying the old IBM 386 computer works much better than the iPad that you saw on TV. Stick your head in the sand if you want...but don't try to claim it's as good as your 500 dollar option.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I got to use the Conturo a few months ago. I have never edge banded anything (things that need edge banding make me throw up in my mouth a little), but it was really easy for a novice to get set up and get good results right away. 

I will never own it, as obvious by my disdain for all things edge banded, but it works great. 

It should do well in this day an age of hospital type crap, errrr cabinets and furniture.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Most in the field commercial repairs of edgebanding is done with contact adhesive. This is now available in portable spray versions versus the need for a compressor days. I can see the portable unit will have its uses but will it warrant the price?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Why does everyone assume that age is a replacement for experience and knowledge? Ask an IT guy how their field has changed in 40 years...how about realtors? How about car sales? How about mechanics? Fighter pilots? And yes...even carpenters. Times and tools have changed. No ones saying you have to change, no ones saying you have to buy new tools, but claiming new stuff is not as good as old tools without ever trying them is like saying the old IBM 386 computer works much better than the iPad that you saw on TV. Stick your head in the sand if you want...but don't try to claim it's as good as your 500 dollar option.


You mean that 40 years experience as a professional cabinet maker doesn't count just because someone comes up with a different way of doing something. Functionally the Festool edgebander isn't all that different than the hot air edgebander. With the hot air edgebander you can put a large roll of tape on it and just keep going with it. Both just puts the tape on the wood, you still have to trim it off. I was expecting a smaller version of a real edgebander which trims the tape too. That would be worthwhile.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Sure 40 years counts for something...but it is fairly apparent you aren't willing to try new tricks...would you buy a car from a YouTube video?? If not, why would you buy or rule out a tool that could make you money?? 

Just seems to be a case of old dog...no new tricks by playing the 40 year card...

I've always believed craftsmanship should stand on its own, not on tools or experience.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't want to argue this. There has been enough arguing on this thread already.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Sure 40 years counts for something...but it is fairly apparent you aren't willing to try new tricks...would you buy a car from a YouTube video?? If not, why would you buy or rule out a tool that could make you money??
> 
> Just seems to be a case of old dog...no new tricks by playing the 40 year card...
> 
> I've always believed craftsmanship should stand on its own, not on tools or experience.


The tool can't make you enough money to warrant its purchase. It will sell faster to a new upcoming company and will have its use but still may not pay for itself. Its a dedicated tool. I've worked in cabinet and commercial shops and can't see the advantage if its the price discussed earlier...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Rebelwork said:


> The tool can't make you enough money to warrant its purchase. It will sell faster to a new upcoming company and will have its use but still may not pay for itself. Its a dedicated tool. I've worked in cabinet and commercial shops and can't see the advantage if its the price discussed earlier...


It will to the guys that don't do enough to justify a 100k edge bander, or the shops that do do enough, but want a better option for curved, beveled, odd shaped, job site fabbed, or field repair work. 

There is obviously a market, Festool has always said they won't bother making a tool if they can't make it better, or make something that is not out there.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Rebelwork said:


> The tool can't make you enough money to warrant its purchase. It will sell faster to a new upcoming company and will have its use but still may not pay for itself. Its a dedicated tool. I've worked in cabinet and commercial shops and can't see the advantage if its the price discussed earlier...



A 3000 dollar edge bander can't make someone money but a 100,000 dollar one can?? Some jobs require edge banding, for some guys this tool puts them in the game.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I did all the custom curved work for these shops, the field installs and repairs. Its not gonna be a hot item, trust me.. It will be cool online and be discussed but I don't see a future with it. In the commercial shop you just spray all curved work. If you have a need for that many repairs in the field you have other things to worry about:yes:


----------



## Alan Wright (Nov 14, 2013)

I am an avid hobbyist and have been doing it for 30 yrs. I have all types of tools. My table saw, bandsaw and jointed are all grizzly. I have the 12 bosch glide SCMS. I have old iron delta RAS. I have 4 cordless drills, all different brands. I have a couple rigid tools. I have a couple lie Nieson (sp) hand planes. I am not a tool snob. 4 nice routers, all different brands (Dewalt, PC Milwakee, and Bosch). 

I have had a dozen different hand Sanders that I never liked. I bought 3 festool Sanders that chewed up the better part of a $1000 to buy. Big investment for a hobby! I bought a Domino about 8 years ago when it was only $850. Now well over a grand. 

My point is that I research and test tools like mad before I buy. I get what I want and can afford. Good thing I didn't need anyone's permission before I bought. I don't get the nasty comments about ANY tool brands. To me, Festool is the right tool for some people, and not for others. If you bought Festool, congrats on your new tool. If you bought another brand, congrats on your new tool. Price aside, Festool makes some very nice tools. Not sure how anyone can argue that point, but I'm sure some of you will


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't own any fe$tool stuff. I think they are over priced. I don't have a single tool in my shop that makes my work worse because of it. All of my shop funds come from mowing yards in the summer. Festool just doesn't fit the budget. All of my Bosch tools work great. I have never killed a Bosch tool. I won't argue that festool makes good tools.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> It's available now and I'm pulling the trigger on that one. Al


You're buying a festool?

I need to go see my cardiologist 

I might have the big one


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

hwebb99 said:


> I don't own any fe$tool stuff. I think they are over priced. I don't have a single tool in my shop that makes my work worse because of it. All of my shop funds come from mowing yards in the summer. Festool just doesn't fit the budget. All of my Bosch tools work great. I have never killed a Bosch tool. I won't argue that festool makes good tools.


Not sure I got your point. Festools are overpriced when you don't own, use them or have a need for them. They seem to keep coming up with solutions to the most mundain tasks. They have drywall sander that is dustless and balanced so you don't get fatigued using it.

Some day I hope they introduce a lawn mower that is quiet and picks up a 100% of the clippings. It will have quick change chucks for edging, weeding etc.

I can't wait to get my wife one for our anniversary.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You can't really compare any hand held edgebander with a real edgebander. For a company applying tape all day every day a real edgebander even at a 100 grand is a better value. The machine can do the work of 3 or 4 people with a handheld edgebander.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You can't really compare any hand held edgebander with a real edgebander. For a company applying tape all day every day a real edgebander even at a 100 grand is a better value. The machine can do the work of 3 or 4 people with a handheld edgebander.



that's not the point, a small shop that needs to do a few projects a week could afford this and make money using it. Of course huge production shops aren't going to switch...


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

unclefester said:


> Not sure I got your point. Festools are overpriced when you don't own, use them or have a need for them. They seem to keep coming up with solutions to the most mundain tasks. They have drywall sander that is dustless and balanced so you don't get fatigued using it.
> 
> Some day I hope they introduce a lawn mower that is quiet and picks up a 100% of the clippings. It will have quick change chucks for edging, weeding etc.
> 
> I can't wait to get my wife one for our anniversary.


My kubota 60 inch deck 4WD diesel works great. I don't want to catch the clippings, because then I have to empty them. I have thought long and hard about the weedeater attachment. I never could come up with something that would work.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

hwebb99 said:


> My kubota 60 inch deck 4WD diesel works great. I don't want to catch the clippings, because then I have to empty them. I have thought long and hard about the weedeater attachment. I never could come up with something that would work.


My wife would do some real damage with that!!!!!


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Anyone use Festools or Tanos Systainers for portable tool storage?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

unclefester said:


> Anyone use Festools or Tanos Systainers for portable tool storage?


For everything I can, less trips to the truck, less space to take up.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

unclefester said:


> My wife would do some real damage with that!!!!!


Here is what you need to get your wife. A grapple. I have a 72 inch finish mower for that tractor, and a smaller 17 hp kubota with 60 inch belly mower.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> For everything I can, less trips to the truck, less space to take up.


I've started to convert my other favorite tools to Systainers to make them easier to haul around. Pretty good system and easy to set up a pretty complete portable shop.

I can fit most items on the rolling cart, that caster thing and the top of a vacuum. I can even roll around that flimsy card table with folding legs (MFT) on the rolling cart.


----------



## centerisl (Jan 2, 2015)

unclefester said:


> I've started to convert my other favorite tools to Systainers to make them easier to haul around. Pretty good system and easy to set up a pretty complete portable shop.
> 
> I can fit most items on the rolling cart, that caster thing and the top of a vacuum. I can even roll around that flimsy card table with folding legs (MFT) on the rolling cart.


200 posts and we finally get to Systainers! That's one of the "features" of Festool - along with their metric sizing, proprietary consumables, et cetera. If you (like unclefester) are constantly re-configuring your portable tool inventory, they look like the only game in town. Most of my tools stay in my shop, though I do transport a few things back and forth to my boat. And I plan to build a cabin in the not too distant future.

I looked pretty closely at the Systainer versus L-Boxx vs. ToughSystem vs. Systainer vs. Tstak for my use and, IMHO, none of them are worth getting excited about.

I've been working hard to NOT buy any Festool, but I did just buy a Mirka Ceros which I absolutely love. It came with a Systainer - my first - but I sure don't feel the desire to have any more of those boxes.

Except, damn, I don't really like the mix-mix assortment of tool boxes I do have on my cabinet shelves either.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

unclefester said:


> Anyone use Festools or Tanos Systainers for portable tool storage?


You know they're made so much better than all the rest so we use them for septic tanks. same price as the concrete ones.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Here is what you need to get your wife. A grapple. I have a 72 inch finish mower for that tractor, and a smaller 17 hp kubota with 60 inch belly mower.
> View attachment 134153


None of those will cut my lawn. You need a reel mower for my grass.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> None of those will cut my lawn. You need a reel mower for my grass.
> 
> Al



Why?


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> None of those will cut my lawn. You need a reel mower for my grass. Al


What kind of grass ya growin' ?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*could either be....*



Al B Thayer said:


> None of those will cut my lawn. You need a reel mower for my grass.
> 
> Al





unclefester said:


> What kind of grass ya growin' ?


Astro turf? Mary Jane? Kentucky Blue? reel mower? what that? You mean real mower? :blink:


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> None of those will cut my lawn. You need a reel mower for my grass.
> 
> Al


Those are our rough places mowers. What we mow with them would destroy a reel mower. I am sure they would cut your lawn. Maybe not to your standards, but they would cut it.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Reel mowers...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

So, Festool makes tractors and mowers?


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> So, Festool makes tractors and mowers?


No, we are talking about other mowers.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> So, Festool makes tractors and mowers?


They did make the first portable chainsaw in 1925.


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

All this talk of mowing is reminding me that spring is just around the corner. 

Im not ready to start cutting grass again.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> All this talk of mowing is reminding me that spring is just around the corner.
> 
> Im not ready to start cutting grass again.


I am more than ready to cut grass. I am not looking forward to the yellowjackets. I hate winter. I would rather mow any day. Mowing is actually kind of fun.


----------



## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

Well, I'd rather mow grass than talk about Festool. :laughing:

Wait, wut??


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Astro turf? Mary Jane? Kentucky Blue? reel mower? what that? You mean real mower? :blink:


I said reel not real. Bermuda Tifway 419.

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They did make the first portable chainsaw in 1925.


That's nice.

Al


----------



## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> I am more than ready to cut grass. I am not looking forward to the yellowjackets. I hate winter. I would rather mow any day. Mowing is actually kind of fun.






I only have 3 acres to cut and its boring as hell. With your equipment Id suspect you have quite a bit more to cut. Not fun IMO.

I love winter and we dont get enough of it. Folks in the city are putting on their north face arctic gear if it gets below 60. Im in a short sleeve shirt until we get below freezing. 

The summers here are hell on earth. I dont like the heat and I absolutely despise humidity. Combine them both to the max and you have where I live 8 months out of the year.


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok, we need to focus here. We've beat up on edge banders, lawn mowers, sanders that are really detail sanders and polishers and Systainers that can also be used as septic tanks on job sites.

Anyone use the 1400 edge router with the 5% angle so as not to tear up the veneer? Works great even on tape edge banding


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

unclefester said:


> Ok, we need to focus here.


On what?


----------



## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> On what?


Who the devil knows anymore


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've never used it or seen one. we just use a bevel bit. Not sure if it does anymore that the router bit would. Price didn't seem too bad compared to some of there other tools:yes:..


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I use this for edge banding when it's 3/4" thick. But that Fe$tool model is nice.








Al


----------



## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

What's a Festool?

HJ


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

honesttjohn said:


> What's a Festool?
> 
> HJ


Festool is a very expensive brand of tools.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

honesttjohn said:


> What's a Festool?
> 
> HJ


Festool is something for folks at woodworking forums to argue over.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Festool is something for folks at woodworking forums to argue over.


It would be Snap On vs Craftsman. :yes:


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Rebelwork said:


> It would be Snap On vs Craftsman. :yes:


Yep that's about it


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

High quality adjustable wrenches, and ratchets are worth it. Sockets, and open end wrenches are all about the same.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> High quality adjustable wrenches, and ratchets are worth it. Sockets, and open end wrenches are all about the same.


Sounds like festool to me


----------



## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

it was inevitable that a festool thread would eventually jump to snap-on


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I prefer Proto.


----------



## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I prefer Proto.


Yes, the proto ratchets are pretty sweet.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Hazet Tools have a nice ring to them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlf_fd9vVs0


----------



## nes999 (Jan 15, 2015)

I own some hazet. It's hard to use snap on after getting some hazet.


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

nes999 said:


> I own some hazet. It's hard to use snap on after getting some hazet.


Festool probably has a Systainer for those. They definitely qualify


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Speaking of Systainers I noticed one full of Domino tenons, anybody use them?


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Domino? I'd like to know where they come up with these names. Is that supposed to be due to their biscuit shape?

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Speaking of Systainers I noticed one full of Domino tenons, anybody use them?


Is that a fancy name for plastic box?

Al


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

FrankC said:


> Speaking of Systainers I noticed one full of Domino tenons, anybody use them?


Yes u gave the the small domino 500 and use it exclusively. It combines the joinery if dowels and biscuits in one except no slop in seconds.

It self centers and lays out down a long board. Saves me tons of time.

Yep it hooks to a vacuum. Have down work on carpet without cleanup. ( Wife wasn't home)


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Domino? I'd like to know where they come up with these names. Is that supposed to be due to their biscuit shape? Al


They actually look more like a domino tile as in the game. I don't know the actual origin of the name. You know those Germans, they use ever letter in the alphabet for a dried out sausage.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Is that a fancy name for plastic box? Al


It's actually a name for a storage system that Makita, Dewalt, Fein, and I believe bosche are emulating. 
They have their draw backs even with third party inserts. I use them to be able to stack 6 or 7 together on the two wheel cart to move them from site to site. My old Makita's will not stack and I would have a pile of cases sliding all over in the back of the van.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Where having a lot of problems using Domino's in our bar stools. There not holding up. Trying to get them to use dowels...


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Where having a lot of problems using Domino's in our bar stools. There not holding up. Trying to get them to use dowels...


Really? I like thru tenons with wedges.














Al


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Really? I like thru tenons with wedges.
> View attachment 135577
> View attachment 135585
> 
> ...


I've mentioned this from the beginning but there in love with the Domino. I started building these without problem and then handed it off to another guy who got lazy and didn't use enough glue so we had 80-90 go bad from failure. He got fired cause he argued he wanted more money during the argument over the bad chairs:no:. So another guy was put in his place(I don't have time) and is pretty consistent with glue and we use a headless pin gun inside for extra bang. But today I hear more are having problems and trying to look at store number vs which builder to find out if there from the same batch(guy).

Anyway I prefer Dowels over Dominos and already told them thru tenons but there deaf on this. Will see once they investigate...


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> I've mentioned this from the beginning but there in love with the Domino. I started building these without problem and then handed it off to another guy who got lazy and didn't use enough glue so we had 80-90 go bad from failure. He got fired cause he argued he wanted more money during the argument over the bad chairs:no:. So another guy was put in his place(I don't have time) and is pretty consistent with glue and we use a headless pin gun inside for extra bang. But today I hear more are having problems and trying to look at store number vs which builder to find out if there from the same batch(guy). Anyway I prefer Dowels over Dominos and already told them thru tenons but there deaf on this. Will see once they investigate...


I am curious, what size domino is failing? Having used the domino system before I find it very hard to believe that a properly done joint is failing at the fault of the loose beech tenon. Yall can argue the price point of the festool stuff all day, but I don't think anyone is willing to call their tools inferior or poorly made. 

If the stools are failing I would expect it to be from not enough glue, the wrong size or improperly placed loose tenon, or a poorly designed stool that puts an enormous amount of stress on the joint. Even then I would expect the wood to tear all apart. 

If the domino is failing I doubt dowels will work.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Ttharp said:


> I am curious, what size domino is failing? Having used the domino system before I find it very hard to believe that a properly done joint is failing at the fault of the loose beech tenon. Yall can argue the price point of the festool stuff all day, but I don't think anyone is willing to call their tools inferior or poorly made.
> 
> If the stools are failing I would expect it to be from not enough glue, the wrong size or improperly placed loose tenon, or a poorly designed stool that puts an enormous amount of stress on the joint. Even then I would expect the wood to tear all apart.
> 
> If the domino is failing I doubt dowels will work.


8x50 and 8x40 on the tops. Dominos are a little bit looser and use glue for the fill. Two dowels in place of one Domino can but not to say it will give it more structure. Kinda like a double whammy. Its trial and error. Dominos are nice but structurally I don't like them...

"Yall can argue the price point of the festool stuff all day, but I don't think anyone is willing to call their tools inferior or poorly made."

The price doesn't reflect this problem as we buy about 100k at a time.

You also have to remember these go to Chilli's restaurants. Adults and kids don't care about leaning,etc. If it can be broke they'll break it. Its our job to make this not be a problem


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Can you improve the food?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

unclefester said:


> Can you improve the food?


Yea but you would have to smoke it before you go in:laughing:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

They are not loose on the narrow setting, if anything they can be hard to put in.

The mortises are a couple mm's deeper then the domino, plus they are textured to hold glue on the faces of them.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They are not loose on the narrow setting, if anything they can be hard to put in.
> 
> The mortises are a couple mm's deeper then the domino, plus they are textured to hold glue on the faces of them.


Not on the 40 and 50. We have two Dominos so its not the Domino itself. Hopefully they find out if its the original chairs..


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

They should all be a mm or so deeper, is the tip broken on the cutter?

I am curious, I will cut some 20 and 25mm deep ones and measure them tomorrow.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

You could always call the number on the side of the tool and talk to one of the application specialist about it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They should all be a mm or so deeper, is the tip broken on the cutter?
> 
> I am curious, I will cut some 20 and 25mm deep ones and measure them tomorrow.


The dominos are both correct. The depth is correct and both have a new bit in each. Its not the Domino itself.

I'm not blaming the domino. If the problem is in the newer chairs then the wood Domino itself doesn't work for this application.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Rebelwork said:


> Yea but you would have to smoke it before you go in:laughing:


I'm in


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They are not loose on the narrow setting, if anything they can be hard to put in. The mortises are a couple mm's deeper then the domino, plus they are textured to hold glue on the faces of them.



This is my experience with all of the sizes. On the tight setting it is a perfect fit. If the tenon is long and you put it in to dry fit it takes pliers to pull them out. 

I don't know. Maybe our machines are different.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Don't remember if the doms are solid wood or like the biscuit but if they fit loose the glue joint would be less strong because of the fact that the wood fibers that react with the glue are not making enough contact. If the glue has to also be a filler it's less than best.

Al


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

As I said the domino works fine. It may be the application. Still no word on who did the chairs but we are thinking a new design. This bar stool is exactly the same except we have a heavier asian seat...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Ttharp said:


> This is my experience with all of the sizes. On the tight setting it is a perfect fit. If the tenon is long and you put it in to dry fit it takes pliers to pull them out.
> 
> I don't know. Maybe our machines are different.


The sizes are for the width (side to side), 3 settings. They will only be the height of the size cutter.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> The sizes are for the width (side to side), 3 settings. They will only be the height of the size cutter.


Huh??

Not sure what 3 settings you are referring to. Mine only has 2, tight which is an exact fit, and loose which has a small amount of play in the width maybe 1/8". The height or thickness of the mortise is the same as the domino. 

The sizes of the dominoes are different in height width and length. My question was more directed to the fact that possibly too small of a tenon was being used. 

Al, I believe the tenons are solid beech and are very strong. I can break a 3/8" x 4" pine dowel by hand. No chance of doing that to the equivalent thickness domino.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

3 widths. Going clockwise, tight, loose, looser.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> 3 widths. Going clockwise, tight, loose, looser. http://s272.photobucket.com/user/wconstructionco/media/20150305_104259_zpsk5xhs2cz.jpg.html



Mine only has 2


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

This is what tight looks like


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

This is what loose looks like


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

That's because you have a different model, good lord.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Why would you want a loose fit?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Why would you want a loose fit?


Lateral clearance to line up multiple tenons.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

FrankC said:


> Lateral clearance to line up multiple tenons.




So basically for inaccurate measuring and milling.


Hopefully Rebels chairs he's wondering about werent made that way.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Chamfer said:


> So basically for inaccurate measuring and milling.
> 
> 
> Hopefully Rebels chairs he's wondering about werent made that way.


Really?

I make lots of tapered columns that are mitered.

I lay out my marks where i want to put a domino.

I am really only concerened with one mark being exact for each piece, the others i just set the spacing evenly by eye.

I make my one reference mortise tight, it lines up the ends of the columns perfectly. The rest i switch to a looser setting, they are just there to keep things flush. Trying to assemble something with 8 tight fitting dominoes will drive you mad at times.

There are some situations in assembly of pieces where you need a looser mortise or you won't get the parts together. Mitered picture frames on the hard wood decks i build is one such example.

I guess this goes back to actually having experience using the tool.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

One does not need to own a Festool domino tool to understand mortise and tenons, which is basically what this tool is a short cut for. I actually am a fan of this tool, although I would never buy it for what they want.

So Warner youre saying that youre basically using them like biscuits, for alignment after your first tight one? Seems a bit overkill for aesthetics but to each his own.

If its for strength its needs to be tight.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

In some applications its all for alignment and to keep the faces flush outside for years. 

I can get stuff perfectly flush with my domino, it was a struggle with any biscuit jointer (besides my lemello).

Between my rail saw and domino, I can get mitered tapered columns from milled stock to in clamps in under 30 minutes. 

I have a chain mortiser, maka mortiser and a greenlee 5 head tenoner, those are what I use for M&T joinery.

I did build a few ipe gates with it and Six10 epoxy and probably used a couple thousand sippo ones on decks an exterior trim (flush faces that stay that way for years). 

My domino has spent more time being used in the rain, mud and snow then inside my shop.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I just hope that someone is learning something from all this.
Opinions are not easily changed, unless it's with knowledge, and even then it may be a hard fought battle.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I like this one. It's my understanding the guy that built it also owns a Domino.








Al


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> I like this one. It's my understanding the guy that built it also owns a Domino. Al



Pretty sweet. Does it isolate or is it for dowels?

I love homemade solutions.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> I just hope that someone is learning something from all this.
> Opinions are not easily changed, unless it's with knowledge, and even then it may be a hard fought battle.


Someone will come along soon with a homebuilt, wood mortise machine and 'claim' it is just as good or 'better'... :yes:

I know better than that. :thumbsup:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Ttharp said:


> Pretty sweet. Does it isolate or is it for dowels?
> 
> I love homemade solutions.


Yes it isolates just like the Dom. I believe the "LumberJockStraps" have built the poop out of that one. 

Al


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Festool has introduced the Festool QUAD driver in England. I want one. I wonder if my wife will let me go to England to pick one up instead of the Woodworking Show in Milwaukee this weekend....

I was just thinking. Anyone test one?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> I like this one. It's my understanding the guy that built it also owns a Domino.
> View attachment 136505
> 
> 
> Al


That is pretty sweet. I might build one. Is it manual or automatic isolate?


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

unclefester said:


> Festool has introduced the Festool QUAD driver in England. I want one. I wonder if my wife will let me go to England to pick one up instead of the Woodworking Show in Milwaukee this weekend....
> 
> I was just thinking. Anyone test one?


I watched a YouTube video just now about it, so I'm an expert. What do you need to know?

I have relatives in Ol' Blighty if you want to import one.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Mort said:


> I watched a YouTube video just now about it, so I'm an expert. What do you need to know? I have relatives in Ol' Blighty if you want to import one.


Hey bring one in for test drive


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I dunno, I like my new Milwaukee Fuel. Plus, for the same price it came with an impact driver. And sawzall. And 1/2" impact wrench. And flashlight.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I love my Milwaukee stuff too*



Mort said:


> I dunno, I like my new Milwaukee Fuel. Plus, for the same price it came with an impact driver. And sawzall. And 1/2" impact wrench. And flashlight.


I have switched from a die hard Dewalt owner to Milwaukee 18 LI, but the old 18V Dewalts won't die easily. We have the impact wrenches and the circular saw, and a sabre saw, and a right angle drill for tight places. :thumbsup:


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Mort said:


> I dunno, I like my new Milwaukee Fuel. Plus, for the same price it came with an impact driver. And sawzall. And 1/2" impact wrench. And flashlight.


I was watching U tube videos where they tested four brands and the Milwaukee 18v fuel cell was number 1
Im going to look into getting one.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm extremely impressed. The impact driver on setting three will take the lug nuts off my GMC 1/2 ton. The drill has a ton of power and runs true (people have complained about chuck wobble, and I thought I had some, but it turns out I had a crooked SDS bit in there). Stuff is a little heavy but that's because it's made of metal.


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