# Pointers for sizing up land for timber



## whirichardson (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm in Indiana and hope to maybe look for some land with good timber qualities for timber sale and my own lumber. In the state there are registered timber buyers who might help me or might not. Anyone have any pointers for evaluating properly for good timber potential?


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

Are you planning on longterm ownership or a quick cut and sale of the property?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

whirichardson said:


> In the state there are registered timber buyers who might help me or might not.


Probably help you right out of a small fortune :laughing:... I would call a forester. Jeff3 asked a good question, both of which scenarios a forester could help you. Either give you a value of your standing timber or a sound plan for development and harvest of a healthy long term wood lot (or both at the same time)
Here are some links. This one may take a second to open it is a big PDF with forester contact info and such. http://www.fnr.purdue.edu/extension/foresters/consult/07-08Directory.pdf
Here is a link to your states DNR-Forestry Dept. http://www.in.gov/dnr/forestry/

I am going to say this and it is not an insult to you whirichardson it is advice for anyone looking to buy or sell timber (or maintain what they have)...unless you are VERY knowledgeable in these matters it is foolish to attempt to make these kind of deals without the advice of a forester.

I don't care whos feelings I hurt with this next statement...a logger is going to screw you in a heartbeat given the chance 9 out of 10 times. This comes from years of experience. Any loggers want to defend themselves step right up :boxing:. So I guess what I am saying with that is don't take a timber buyers advice like it's in your best interest in these matters.


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## whirichardson (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm looking for property I could timber selectively and also live on, so long term. Daren that sounds like good advice that I will take. 

I don't want to try to make a bunch of money or start a timber business. I'm looking for property I can live on have a nice workshop while maybe being able to supply myself with some good lumber and allow some selective harvesting. Indiana has good hardwoods but I know you have to get someone who knows what their doing to evaluate 10 - 30 acres of "woods". 

I'll check those links. Thanks


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## JP Sinclair (Nov 13, 2006)

It hurts to say this about Daren's comment on loggers but he most often is right. I had a logging business for 10 years before I went into millwork. To say I was shocked with the way I saw some harvesters treat a landowner isn't strong enough. I was amazed at how much business I got because I played it honest, paid what I said I would pay and treated their property like it was mine. I figured every piece of land that I worked on was an advertisment. Unfortunately, there are some ripoff artists in that business. I guess it's like any other contractor, get references and demand to see past work. A good forester will be a great idea. I can tell you from years of cruising timber, there are a lot of variables in looking at standing timber. As far as hardwoods go, you'll need to be concerned about things like heart size in maple. Some mature cherry can hide center pith rot nicely. Ash can have healed seams from old wind damage. You can get a rough estimate on board footage of each species on any given woodlot and that will give you an idea the value. Also - trunk size in hardwood makes a big difference when it comes to value. Good luck with the search -


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I am sure that your state has a department of forestry. Most likely they have people there who can give you specific information that will be helpful to you.

George


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

JP Sinclair said:


> To say I was shocked with the way I saw some harvesters treat a landowner isn't strong enough.


You're one of the good guys JP, more of an exception to the rule than the standard I am afraid. Not that there are not more out there like you I just have never met one in my business dealings :no:. And I guess part of my bias is because of my local. I live in the middle of corn/bean country...forestry and logging is not a big part of the business economy. Most of the trees are long gone, felled for agriculture. That is why I am an urban logger there are more trees in town that in the country around here, simple as that. I may have a different opinion if I lived where logging was more prevalent and was more closely watched by others. Around here I see loggers come in from even out of state and rape the land (and landowner). Mainly because people do not educate themselves on the subject (or contact someone like a forester who is), I guess that was the point I was trying to get across.


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

I just went through the same thing, finding property with timber, a building site and a pond. I spent a year and a half looking. I am on tthe road and don't have the link handy, but the NRCS soil maps were my most important tool. They will tell you what and how well tress grow in a user defined area. It also shows lots more like foundation types needed, suitability for septic systems, and suitability for pond building.


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## whirichardson (Aug 29, 2008)

This is good info guys and thanks for more pointers. I intend to take my sweet time looking and I may not even stay in Indiana. I figure in the next 6 - 8 yrs we can figure out if we stay in Indiana or end up in either Missouri or even head to North or South Carolina. 

I already ran into this Prof from Purdue, specialty is Forestry and Wood Science and is a sawyer too (the Honey Locust guy). Then we have a good/fair arborist who treats the trees on our suburban home that has educated me a bit and given me pointers to web sites too. We've wanted a place with some space for awhile and now we (wife and I) would like to keep it natural but also yield some decent timber under a proper harvesting plan. 

I'll check out the NRCS stuff too.


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## JP Sinclair (Nov 13, 2006)

It's no doubt you're right Daren - I guess the part of the business that gets landowners is the surprising complexity of grading, scaling and estimating standing timber. It took me years to get to the point that I was getting good at it. On better notes - I've got to post some new funky wood for you. I've been cutting some killer stuff. Even had some red cedar recently, beautiful purple heart. Man does it make the mill smell nice! The wife even had me scoop up the sawdust into a 5 gallon bucket. She brought just a little into the house and put in a small dish on the dining room table, smells awesome!. Just had an opportunity to get my brochures on a display table at a conference in Boston called greenbuild. Huge deal for me, I guess there are tons of woodworkers, builders, architechs etc there. Even if it just gets the web page out there, it's a good thing - :yes:


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

NRCS soil survey: http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx . I had time to get a link, just zoom in and plot out an area of interest then click the tab for the soil data. Try it on your current home, you will be amazed at what it says in the construction tabs.


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## whirichardson (Aug 29, 2008)

Thanks again guys for the links and such. Going into any kind of land buy we decided to be as thorough and humanly possible. Looking at timber quality, soil quality, all existing or possible easements, neighbors land and use, water table, Geo survey, local proposed development, etc.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Looking at timber quality, soil quality, all existing or possible easements, neighbors land and use, water table, Geo survey, local proposed development, etc


.

....and how militant the tree huggers in the area are.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Whiri these fellas are right about most loggers - you better watch 'em close like. I just popped mine in the nose today. Low down dirty scoundrel.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Heh. Did you see the tv show "extreme loggers"? They had these dudes hauling out hard wood with mules last night. It was pretty funny. I think they worked 2 full days and 5 or 6 guys made a whole 1400 dollars.


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## drcollins804 (Jan 11, 2008)

Have to agree with Daren on this too. I had a really good logger do a cleanup cut on my place about ten years ago. Just thinned the really dense out a little and cut the trees with wind damage and other damage. Really wish he was still cutting since I could use him again in the next year or so but he went back to coal mining because he would give the people a realistic value of their timber and the other guys would come in and out bid him then cut everything in sight to come close to their bid. (That in sight includes trees that are across the property line on someone else but close enough that they think they can get away with it. If they cut near you it is constant vigilance to keep your own trees. They count on the absentee owners that won't know anything was done until next hunting season if they even notice then.) Leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you see what they do to some of these woods. There are a couple that are close to me that were cut around the same time mine were that wont recover for another 25-30 years. What they didn't cut they damaged so much that only the new growth will ever be worth anything.
David


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> I just popped mine in the nose today.


:laughing:, your nose still sore ?


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Yep. Real tender. :laughing:


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## whirichardson (Aug 29, 2008)

So after you find decent land you have to find a decent logger too. Then keep a hawy eye on your property.


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