# How to lighten mahogany veneer?



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

This is a brand new challenge to me. I am refinishing a mahogany veneer buffet and trying to match the color difference as shown in the first picture below.

After stripping and sanding and simply adding mineral spirits to simulate a top coat the picture on the right below shows the middle section being far too dark.

I do not know how to solve this problem. How the original piece was stained brown and not mahogany red is also a puzzle to me. How the middle was made lighter than the actual wood color is a mystery.

Help and advice needed please.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If you have stripped the wood entirely and got all the way down to bare wood, sand the entire piece with 180 grit paper. Then, you need to apply a green equalizer (blue and yellow dye) which in turn will kill absolutely all the red and make the wood appear much lighter. Then you will have to come back and match the wood to get you that brown color. Of course, you will need to experiment on scrap wood. 

I made a green equalizer using blue and yellow dye mixed to give me a light green color, this mixture being mixed in ethanol. I also mixed in silver flake and will also give the appearance to make the wood even lighter, but thats really not necessary for what you are doing. This is what I use on Mahogany and Sapale all the time when I need to match a lighter brown version in that species.

The only other way to get that color is apply an equalizer and make a toner and sneak up on it. But if the toner is too strong or you do too many coats you take a change of hiding the grain, and you will not get that flip in the grain that you sometimes see with mahogany.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> If you have stripped the wood entirely and got all the way down to bare wood, sand the entire piece with 180 grit paper. Then, you need to apply a green equalizer (blue and yellow dye) which in turn will kill absolutely all the red and make the wood appear much lighter. Then you will have to come back and match the wood to get you that brown color. Of course, you will need to experiment on scrap wood.
> 
> I made a green equalizer using blue and yellow dye mixed to give me a light green color, this mixture being mixed in ethanol. I also mixed in silver flake and will also give the appearance to make the wood even lighter, but thats really not necessary for what you are doing. This is what I use on Mahogany and Sapale all the time when I need to match a lighter brown version in that species.
> 
> The only other way to get that color is apply an equalizer and make a toner and sneak up on it. But if the toner is too strong or you do too many coats you take a change of hiding the grain, and you will not get that flip in the grain that you sometimes see with mahogany.


 Randy wow. Thanks for the quick feedback. I am still digesting and mildly shaking. This is all new territory for me.

Lots of testing in my future.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy wow. Thanks for the quick feedback. I am still digesting and mildly shaking. This is all new territory for me.
> 
> Lots of testing in my future.
> 
> Gary


That is a hard job for a new comer, but it can be done if you have access to blue and yellow dyes or an already made green dye. *Green kills red*, remember that and.........Practice, practice, practice! When you get it right, the wood will look like a lighter almost white/yellowish color, and from there you can dial in the brown color.....maybe a light neutral brown maple color?

It will not be easy, just warning you!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The green dye isn't going to lighten the crotch veneer. It will just make it more brown. The only way to lighten the wood is with a two part wood bleach.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If you have the right mix of blue/yellow to make a bright green, it will kill all the red making the panel lighter in appearance, and it will go past the brown side all the way to the green side. Phthalo green to oppose the red is the way to go in my opinion, and the addition of yellow to brighten the green helps tremendously in this area. Actually, if done right, when done the panel will actually look better than the top panel because you will see more grain.

I'm not sure if bleaching the mahogany will gain anything. Typically bleaching is used to even out the color if there are unpleasant mineral marks present. Bleaching Mahogany veneer is not like bleaching other wood veneers. You may have to bleach it 4 or 5 times to lighten it, maybe. When bleaching the veneer, don’t get the surface too wet. If you flood it, you’ll soften up the glue, and it will blister. 

I will see if I can shoot some equalizer on a piece of mahogany tomorrow and I will post a before and after pic and show what the difference will be.....if I dont forget. :laughing:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The green dye isn't going to lighten the crotch veneer. It will just make it more brown. The only way to lighten the wood is with a two part wood bleach.


 Steve I am going to do some testing based on the input regarding using green wood dye to neutralize the red color in the mahogany. I don't believe that I can buy wood dye locally so will have to order some online.

I have experience with oxalic acid for bleaching wood but not with two part wood bleaching.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> That is a hard job for a new comer, but it can be done if you have access to blue and yellow dyes or an already made green dye. *Green kills red*, remember that and.........Practice, practice, practice! When you get it right, the wood will look like a lighter almost white/yellowish color, and from there you can dial in the brown color.....maybe a light neutral brown maple color?
> 
> It will not be easy, just warning you!


 Randy this does indeed not sound easy especially never having done it before. The testing will be slow for me and till I can get some new colors of wood dye I can't even start.

Thanks.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I am going to do some testing based on the input regarding using green wood dye to neutralize the red color in the mahogany. I don't believe that I can buy wood dye locally so will have to order some online.
> 
> I have experience with oxalic acid for bleaching wood but not with two part wood bleaching.
> 
> Gary


Oxalic acid is really only good for artificial stains such as water damage. You could try the green dye and see what it does for you. If it isn't enough you could still use bleach. If you can't get two part wood bleach you might try clorox clothing bleach. I've had pretty good luck with it. It's just not as potent as the two part bleach. You can't expect any bleach to really lighten the natural color of the wood a lot. Then you have to be careful sanding afterwards. Do your finish sanding before bleaching and after bleaching sand only what is needed because it raises the grain. Very much sanding and it will easily sand down to the natural color of the wood again.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Ok, below is a piece of mahogany that I used an equalizer on today to show what it will look like. I know its not the same grain Mahogany, but it is a veneered Mahogany and it just shows what Im talking about. As you can see, it killed the red and appears to be lighter. Its actually lighter in person than in the picture. After you equalize it, you can then apply a dye stain right over the equalizer and achieve the color you are looking for. I know they used a dye stain because the grain in the pic at the top "flips", and pigments do not do that. It will just take time and alot of samples, but it can be done. 

From the left is the Mahogany, right side is the equilized side, and I included a pic of the color of the equalizer that I used. As you can see, its a very bright "yellow/green" dye.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Ok, below is a piece of mahogany that I used an equalizer on today to show what it will look like. I know its not the same grain Mahogany, but it is a veneered Mahogany and it just shows what Im talking about. As you can see, it killed the red and appears to be lighter. Its actually lighter in person than in the picture. After you equalize it, you can then apply a dye stain right over the equalizer and achieve the color you are looking for. I know they used a dye stain because the grain in the pic at the top "flips", and pigments do not do that. It will just take time and alot of samples, but it can be done.
> 
> From the left is the Mahogany, right side is the equilized side, and I included a pic of the color of the equalizer that I used. As you can see, its a very bright "yellow/green" dye.


 Randy this is very helpful especially the picture and with the equalizer included.

I do not understand what you mean by saying that the grain "flips".

Interestingly when I sent the pictures (from the top of this entry) to the customer she was enamored with the beauty and red hew of the mahogany grain. She may consider changing her mind and going with a natural mahogany look.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy this is very helpful especially the picture and with the equalizer included.
> 
> I do not understand what you mean by saying that the grain "flips".
> 
> ...


By flip, I mean when you look at the grain and tilt the piece or look at it from different angles, some of the grain will go from dark to light and from light to dark. There are a couple of ways to look at a finished sample and know a dye was used.

1. Hold the sample and rock it slightly from side to side. If the
color dances around the surface, flipping from light to dark
then the wood has a dye applied to it.

2. If the color is clear and bright, then it’s a dye.

3. If the color is clear and bright and did not take on the
harder latewood, then it is a dye applied to the bare wood.
For instance you will see white latewood grain lines on
maple. :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Randy this is very helpful especially the picture and with the equalizer included.
> 
> I do not understand what you mean by saying that the grain "flips".
> 
> ...


That would save a lot of work if she liked the natural color. More than likely the piece was originally finished with just a clear coating and over time light bleached the dark color. All you did is bring it out again.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> That would save a lot of work if she liked the natural color. More than likely the piece was originally finished with just a clear coating and over time light bleached the dark color. All you did is bring it out again.


 Steve, it sure would save a lot of time.

It would confuse me if originally this was just clear coated but over time the light bleached it brownish in color and differently on the edges compared with the middle. Who knows?

Thanks for the input.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> That would save a lot of work if she liked the natural color.


:thumbsup:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Randy thank you for the explanation of the grain flipping. I surely learn something every time I ask questions in this forum and I appreciate it.

Gary

P.S. Not sure your message was not included here so something is not working quite right.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> P.S. Not sure your message was not included here so something is not working quite right.


I was just agreeing with Steve. :thumbsup:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Feedback to Steve and Randy ... the customer viewed the book matched crotch wood mahogany buffet door today and was very pleased with it unstained and au natural. Although I did learn quite a bit about how to mitigate the redness in mahogany if I never need to do that it won't be on this project. Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Well that saved alot of work! Good luck!


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