# A VERY long-term project



## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

I have embarked on a VERY long term project - restoring a little town house. There is a double interest here, one is simply to make some of my savings (essentially earning nothing at the bank) work a bit by buying/restoring/letting the property, but at a second level, the land belonging to the house adjoins our garden at the rear and overlooks our rear courtyard, so I've had my eye on the land for some time. The house is located in a street at right angles to ours, so it is not actually next door, but because of the corner, the two plots meet at the ends.

The owner inhertited it from his grand parents and had vague plans to do it up, but is now in poor health himself, so I thought he might be open to an offer. I contacted him as it was not on the market (no agents fees) and in the end I got it for next to nothing. Given the low price and with me doing a lot of the work, it should be quite a profitable project. It has to be a rental as reselling other than main residence attracts punitive capital gains tax here. For the moment, contracts are signed, but the admin wheels grind slow and we have not completed yet, so I cant make a start except to remove the fences (which were on our land) and arrange better access.

It has stood empty for 15yrs or more, so nothing left of any value inside, kitchen and bathroom are both "rip out and burn". Wiring and plumbing are rudimentary to say the least, but it is on mains drainage. The roof needs attention, basic timbers (some old oak, some replacement sawn timber) seem sound, tiles and laths are shot, so are windows and doors. However, the walls are solid, 18th C stone built - basically, I'm buying a plot of land and a shell - the rest is to do.

Isabelle thinks I'm crazy - I'm retired and have no need to do any of this, but I do like to have a project...

Here's a few pictures : 









It's the scruffy one on the right.

This is the back view, seen from above our courtyard. As you can see, the land rises sharply, our courtyard is 4m lower than the garden of the house to restore. You can see how it overlooks us and why I was so keen to get hold of it before someone else did.









This is what you see from our courtyard









Here is the electrical installation









...and the kitchen









...and the bathroom









...and the roof









Quite small, and very scruffy, but just integrating the part of the garden that overlooks our courtyard with our existing garden (which is behind me in the second photo) will add more than the purchase price to the value of our main property.

Here is a plan that makes positions clearer










and here are the existing house and barn for ref :


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## Dan3103 (Mar 24, 2015)

Talk about giving yourself something to do in retirement 

That is a very large project! How much of it will you be required to contract out?


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

Dan3103 said:


> Talk about giving yourself something to do in retirement
> 
> That is a very large project! How much of it will you be required to contract out?



The plumbing and wiring all has to be replaced, but I do that. Wiring will have to be signed off by a qualified electrician, but I can do a deal with a friend who is qualified - he prepares the drawings for a modest fee, I do the work, then he inspects and approves the installation. 

So I will do : (not in chronological order) 

Insulate by dry lining all walls 

Re-tile ground floor 

Plumbing 

Wiring 

Replace exterior doors/windows etc (probably make them, possibly buy, but all odd sizes so buy will be expensive). 

Remove/erect new internal walls (non structural) 

Replace staircase (buy) 

Fit kitchen (buy units) 

Fit bathrooms (2) 

Decorate 


What I will sub to professionals : 

Replace roof 

Woodworm treatment roof timber 

Internal plastering (I am no good at it) 

Re-render exterior wall (1 only)


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Heck of a build you're getting into there. Can't wait to see what you do with the place.

Is plaster more standard over there or do you just prefer it over drywall? 


Good luck and be sure to keep the pictures coming as progress ensues. 



Jon


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## Dan3103 (Mar 24, 2015)

I agree with Chamfer, that is a ton of work! But the value you add to your property will reap it's own reward, in increased rents or in resale when the time comes. Kudos to you for taking it on.

We're rooting for you on this side of the pond


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

Chamfer said:


> Heck of a build you're getting into there. Can't wait to see what you do with the place.
> 
> Is plaster more standard over there or do you just prefer it over drywall?
> 
> ...


Misunderstanding -we do use what you refer to as drywall in the US, here we call it plaque au plâtre (translates to "sheets of plaster"). When I refered to plastering, I meant the filling/taping joints/tidying up operations after fitting drywall.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Good luck on it.
I'm going thru a similar but all wood framed 1909 farmhouse here in the mountains of N.C.. 
It's been a year and 8 months and I'm just getting the drywall taped and ready for paint. I figure I'll have 2 years in it and loads of labor.

I'm farming or have farmed out the taping work on the drywall/masonry fireplace repairs/ some metal roof work/and electrical 200a panel wiring. Everything else has been done by myself. A few friends and family have chipped in some time but very little.

The payback will be 3 to 4x the actual value. Loads of equity.
I wouldn't ever do this again though.


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Chataigner, 
Great project for you. Keep taking photos and posting for us to view. Being a contractor it is very interesting to me to see how construction is done in other parts of the world. No one method of construction works worldwide. 
Good Luck on the project. 

Marty


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

Minnesota Marty said:


> Chataigner,
> Great project for you. Keep taking photos and posting for us to view. Being a contractor it is very interesting to me to see how construction is done in other parts of the world. No one method of construction works worldwide.
> Good Luck on the project.
> 
> Marty


Thanks, I will, but dont hold your breath. Until the "gratte-papiers" (pen pushers) have finished all the land registry and taxes stuff I dont actually own it. The contract we have signed says I'm legally committed to buy, and the seller (and his heirs !) are legally committed to sell, but time must pass to keep the bureaucrats employed and justify the 7% tax on house purchases (or is that perhaps to pay for early retirement in Greece ?). 

No, I'm not really cynical.


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## cps (Jun 21, 2013)

Chataigner said:


> Thanks, I will, but dont hold your breath. Until the "gratte-papiers" (pen pushers) have finished all the land registry and taxes stuff I dont actually own it. The contract we have signed says I'm legally committed to buy, and the seller (and his heirs !) are legally committed to sell, but time must pass to keep the bureaucrats employed and justify the 7% tax on house purchases *(or is that perhaps to pay for early retirement in Greece ?*).
> 
> No, I'm not really cynical.


That was funny.....Do you'll have to pay annual property tax on a house in addition to the sales tax?


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

cps said:


> That was funny.....Do you'll have to pay annual property tax on a house in addition to the sales tax?


Yes, it is used to support local services such as refuse collection, street lighting, maintenance of public buildings in the town etc. On my existing property it amounts to around $2000/yr.

The principle is local taxes for local services, national (income and capital gains etc) taxes for national services. However, the local taxes are subsidised by national government to the tune of around 50%, so the local taxes actually only pay half the cost of the local services.


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## Jeff Shafer (Nov 16, 2010)

Can't wait to see this progress!


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

*It's mine !!*

The pen pushers have finally finished, it's mine as of today. :yes::yes:

Currently very busy with an exhibition by our photo club, but in 10 days I make a start !


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## Develin (Oct 1, 2012)

I am eager to see this progress!


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## Dan3103 (Mar 24, 2015)

Congratulations! I hope everything goes smoothly and you don't find any hidden gremlins. That's a lot to hope for


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

*1st tentative steps !*

I've made a small start ! Last week was the annual exhibition of our photo club, so not much time available, but I've started clearing the rubbish. I think the house must have been a squat at some time, the quantity of rubbish inside is hard to imagine. Mainly cigarette packets, asprin packets, the french equivalent of "hello" magazine, old clothing and empty bottles. The rusty fridge still had food in it after over 10 yrs unoccupied - should have had a Haz-chem label ! I taped it shut ready for transport to the tip. 

It took 6 rubbish sacks of 100 litre size to clear the floor of packets etc as above. All done now, just the old furniture to break up and burn. 

On saturday, Isabelle and I made a start on the back yard. All manner of rubbish under tall grass, weeds and ivy. We cleared around 25m2, see photo, and stacked the rubbish - a crazy mix of wood, plastics, metals etc. I will trailer it all to the tip later today. At least you can get to the door now.



















This bit is next - 3m high brambles covering wood and metal rubbish !


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## Dan3103 (Mar 24, 2015)

That's a metric ton of work before you can get to the work! Thanks for the update.


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

*More clearing work*

Yesterday we attacked the next bit of the garden - the mountain of brambles in the corner.

Under the brambles of course another mountain of rubbish including car batteries, sheets of corrugated iron, numerous plastic cotainers of various shapes and sizes and the remains of a long rotted wooden shed. Rotted because the next door neighbours guttering downpipe is broken off just below the gutter and all the water from the roof has been discharging onto the shed, under the brambles, for years. Not really his fault, access was impossible before. 10mins to repair it - already done !

However, I notice it is only a soakaway and it's a big roof area that discharges there, no link into a rainwater drain and a good part of the ground floor of the house is below soil level, so I think that will need revisiting.

Anyhow - we now have another small clear space, a heap of brambles and another heap of mixed debris mainly rotten wood from the shed.




























This evening, Isabelle's 25yr old son (almost 2m tall !) will drop round to help me load it all into the trailer.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Good your getting some help.

My experience is that you'll get help for awhile and then it dries up unless you give help back on their projects. With that said experience also has shown me that I've only gotten back 20-25% of the labor I put out for others. It rarely works out even. 
The other option is paying for the help/labor.

Here big rubbish piles like that contain snakes and spiders, and not the good kind. Copperheads and rattlers as well as black widows and brown recluse's. Wear gloves and prod things with a long stick before grabbing at stuff if you have issues like that.

When I'm done, No More Remodeling!!!
I've had my fill.
I do have an out building to do yet. Likely a 30' x 40' building as shop area. Then I'm done for good and can get back to woodworking/mini home construction/antique car restoration. I've now lost 1 yr and 10 months to this remodel project and it's driving me crazy that I don't have time for those things. NO MORE!


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Chataigner, 
You are making great progress. You can visually see the side of the building now. This way one can get a great opportunity to visually inspect any and all problem areas. 
Improper water management is such a "silent" destroyer of a building. It is also sad that the neighbor could not do anything about it due to the situation, he probably is glad that you are correcting that bad situation. 
Clean up and demolition are not fun but it is rewarding seeing something come back to life. 
I will continue to follow your progress. 
Marty


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Aardvark,

I'm with you. We did one remodel before we got married. No more. I could have made more money working and doing what I wanted and just bought a move in ready house. It was kind of like the Army - - a memorable experience, but I didn't reup.

HJ


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

Help is indeed sporadic, but I'm used to that. As for the time involved, I'm not under any pressure to finish, we bought our main house (late 1700s) already fully restored, so we live comfortably with no building work - this little one is just a hobby project. When I want to do something else, I can.

Like you, I would not contemplate a restoration project that I had to live in at the same time. I did that once, NEVER again !

Amongst the "happy" memories of that one was that when we first moved in, we knew when it was raining in the night because the dog whined when the rain dripped on him through the leak in the roof above the kitchen !


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

h-john
Interesting re-up analogy.
Refused to do it as well.
I'm not retired but currently out of work due to our move to this area so time was available. When done I have a Mini Home we are preparing to market. Then a different game begins.
..........
When I was a Building Commish , I had a lady come into my office and ask "Is there a support group for wives of remodelers?" I about died laughing after the fact, but she was dead serious. She was distraught, so we talked for quite a while.
I thought about it and actually thought it was a good idea.
When a husband/wife start a re-mod project, now my first question to them is "How's your marriage?" 
..........
Chat
We're not moved into the house yet. In 1 1/2 weeks we will move in under a "temporary occupancy" scenario, and we'll be left with painting and detail work to do, as well as yard work. We're on 2 acres with 3/4 of it wooded. Lotta clean up. Here we can burn debris. We've had ~20 burn piles all over 6ft tall. Lotta bonfires.
Yeah I've lived through a remodel when in Illinois. The dust and disruption wasn't worth it. Here we have a mobile home within 2 miles as a place to stay dry and warm. 
.........
I'm making a Coffee Table Book.
It's a conglomeration of over 500 photos of which I'm choosing 150. All photos of the remodel project 
Title will be "DON'T DO THIS !!!"


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Yeah AArdvark, I've always heard a remodel will strengthen or destroy a marriage. Luckily my wife put up with my 4 year remodel. Chataigner, good luck with yours and looking forward to progress pics.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Never seen it strengthen a marriage, but have seen it raise the hair on the spouses backs.
The movie Money Pit has too much truth to it.

Nice part is when done you get what you want. Still, I rarely see a finished product where the owners aren't considering changes they thought of after the fact. They might be minor or decorating things, or as drastic as a wall removal. Many just can't see the finished product in their mind or on paper.

In my case, I am able to see the end product right down to specific color choices. I don't see a need for changing things afterwards. Been in the business nearly 4 decades, so it's second nature in that realm.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Well we don't want to change any thing we did. I just can't get my wife to stop wanting to add more. Lol


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Well, I think it might be time to defend the professional remodeling contractors. Which I am one of them. I have been in the Design/Build remodeling business for 25+ years. I have over 750 clients and currently all my work comes from referral. 
I can say that most "projects from hell" come about because of poor planning and not setting realistic expectations on everyone's part. A job from hell goes something like this. We want this done by Thanksgiving and they haven't even talked to a kitchen designer yet. A good kitchen design process takes about 4-6 weeks if all goes well. It just takes time to digest the anticipated changes. Then the owners listen to "friends" that have done it get their nose in the project to make changes. 
So, if we get a completed kitchen design by the end of September - 6 weeks from now. Then, we have the mechanical subcontractors walk thru the existing to discover the demons. Most likely, it will take a good two weeks to work thru the demons and then formulate a price. All the while the "friends" are adding to the design and not paying for the adds. So, then the contractor presents a contract proposal that takes into account all the "friends" adds and it is 50% over the expected budget. So, then it is decision time... increase the budget or make cuts to the scope of the project to get it where it needs to be. Most of the time it is a combination of both. 
Specialized materials such as custom built items get ordered and as we do. Not start the project until all critical parts are built so we can install in a timely manner. 
Then the "friends" or "relatives" keep asking, why are you doing that? And pretty soon the wife starts looking at Pinterest to get ideas and she asks, is it too late to change a few things. She starts to think that the Designer that has spent months discussing the project with her and worked thru the dilemmas of the design process, didn't think of that. 
Then to hang that bathroom vanity on the wall from IKEA needs the plumbing rough ins changed and that is more money. Oh, while you have that wall apart can we add some sound insulation in that wall. No, we are only opening up 4 sq. ft. on 40 sq. ft. 
I could go on, on and on. But, poor planning and not having realistic expectations is the villain. I have a poster hanging in my office with a picture of Tom Silva from This Old House fame. The caption reads, "do you know the 4 most expensive words in remodeling?" " While we're at it". 
Back to Chataigner project. He is not going to be living in the project. Which makes it a totally different situation. This is a neighboring house that he purchased to improve the value of his property and probably have some extra income. How projects go bad is totally different than what Chataigner is talking about here.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Minn Marty
Nobody is disparaging contractors here that I've noticed, but your input is on target about them.

I also have been in the trades as a Architect/Builder/Building Commish/Real Estate Investor for 38 years. There are a lotta schlock contractors and many that will bid a job low, fully knowing they will add ~20% in extras. They bid low just to get a foot in the door. I always try to warn a potential client of this, and give tips on how to avoid these cost overruns. Also I make it clear in the design process that after a point there will be no more changes. It still happens, but to a lesser degree in most cases. Generally the changes become cosmetic.

I consider my job is to bring a project in ''at or very close'' to their budget. That's a challenge. It takes giving the clients a reality check on costs and (again) cautions on how to pick good contractors. We go into cost cutting methods in the construction process without compromising quality. 

Today I wouldn't advise anyone to build new. The cost of materials is out of sight. The price (here) to build a house from scratch is now at a $130.oo per square foot minimum. You can buy a slightly used home for near 1/2 of that when you calculate the actual cost of the building square foot minus the land value, utilities needing added, permit fees, etc.
Lets face facts. With the price of materials going up nearly 30% in the last 10 years, the costs are out of hand. Building costs except contractors have escalated severely. Contractors hourly rates have actually hung in there pretty well with a good correction that was needed in 2007-8. Then union contractors were out of work and scrambling to find jobs at near 1/2 of their hourly rate. That price has risen since 2008, but still not near to what it was prior to 2007.
It's the materials that have skyrocketed.
..............
..............
Lets do a example of new vs used price analysis here. A moderately priced project.

A 2000 sq ft home with 1 acre of land new.

2000 sq ft X $160.oo per sq ft = $320,000.oo
Connections to water/sewer/gas = ~ $20,000.oo
Permit fees (vary greatly) = $15,000
Other extra costs (add 20%) = $70,000.
Landscaping = $10,000
TOTAL = $435.000.oo

And you haven't found a piece of land yet.
Here 1 acre of land can go anywhere from $30.000 to $150,000, depending on the neighborhood and the scenic view. (I personally spent $60k for 2 scenic acres...a steal, and it had a dilapidated house on it).
So a new house w/ land could easily go for 

House + land (@ $50k) = $485,000.oo 
..........
I dont see much sense in running down the math on a used home price with minor remodeling. Lets just say you can buy a decent 2000 sq ft house in a good area for 1/2 of this. Mine is probably 1/5th of that.
I'm on 2 acres and have a 2000 sq ft house for $60,000 purchase price + $45,000 remodel price
= $105,000.oo
This in an exceptionally beautiful location with mountain views and no neighbors within 1000+foot of me. So the land alone should have cost me $150,000 +. It came with a horrible home on it as well.
........
........ 
The above example is kind of why we remodel by ourselves. Massive cost savings with minimal contractors hired in. 
The costs of using seasoned contractors, though less than in 2007, is still something we want to avoid as possible. There are very few contractors that Chataigner or I will use. Yes it escalates the timeline, but in the end, even figuring in our own time we get our projects done somewhat inexpensively. Also we generally will look for bargains on materials. I use a local sawmill for some of the lumber I use. I also have found sources for like new things like sinks and tubs, etc. Cabinetry is IKEA.
I feel for those individuals that must deal with contractors for everything. Hell, I know a guy that can't even change a car tire. He and others are at the mercy of the construction field, which has about as much honesty as car dealers and politicians. 

So we remodel.
That said, after this one I QUIT!
I have a 30' x 40' outbuilding/shop to build and I'm semi-retired.


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

Having endorsed Da Aardvarks post, I should add that I have used contractors from time to time in previous projects and almost all of the experiences were good. My reasons for doing most of the work myself in this project are these :

Reduce costs
Stay active and fit (I'm 68)
I enjoy making doors, windows etc
Justify my extensively (and expensively) equipped workshop to Isabelle !


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Agree with your reasons Chataigner.

I can do without the keeping fit and staying active reason, however.
Other things I can do will do that. Hiking the mountains will do it.

Theres something to be said about reduced costs in doing the work yourself. Good and bad. It all has to do with what your time is worth.
I'm sorta on a loose time schedule with my place. It took me (alone) 3 weeks to hang 100 sheets of drywall. I decided to farm out the taping portion since I'm no good at it and it would have taken me nearly 1 1/2 month to do it. In 4 days a crew was done and out.

My dad, before retirement would just work overtime to get his house work done. In doing so, his hourly salary was 4 to 5X that of a contractor. Add in materials and he still had money left over in his pocket. No cost savings would have been realized for him. After retirement he does most of his own work.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Correction, it was 200 sheets of drywall.


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