# New Cabinet door question



## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

So I'm starting to design new doors for my old 50's cabinets. I'm going to do some very simple recessed panel doors because, one I want this to be easy and two, I want it to be very clean looking. 

I wanted some opinions on whether or not to partially recess the doors in the boxes. The current doors (pictured) are partially recessed but I'm unsure about whether to do the same thing or set the doors directly on the box front. The new hinges will be hidden from sight. 

The third pic is a good example of what I'm going for with the new doors. 

Some opinions on this would be very helpful. Thanks

Steve


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I assume you are using a Euro hinge. As far as I know they don't make a 3/8" inset/overlay hinge. The shaker door style you have chosen would best look as an inset door.


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## BHOFM (Oct 14, 2008)

My bathroom had plain ply doors. I cut the centers
out of them and used bead board paneling for the
insert. It matches the cabinets we bought.

I used a cordless trim saw to cut the centers out,
plunge cut with a guide board.

The "joint" in fake, just cut it with a razor knife.


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

Leo G said:


> I assume you are using a Euro hinge. As far as I know they don't make a 3/8" inset/overlay hinge.
> 
> Rockler will sell you some but they are really expensive
> 
> The shaker door style you have chosen would best look as an inset door.


I agree with this.

Had you considered just reusing the hardware and hinges you already have. Nothing says "PERIOD" like the stuff you already have.

Ed


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I disagree*

I've got a whole house full of Shaker style cabinets with overlay doors using Euro hinges. I like the "clean" look, no hinges showing and very little frame showing either. Inset doors are harder to do correctly and there can be no screw ups, or they won't have a constant gap. My choice is overlay with the adjustable euro hinge. :thumbsup: bill
Quoting the OP: 
"....one I want this to be easy and two, I want it to be very clean looking."


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If you just have to have a 3/8" lipped door, here's a hinge. They are a bit pricey.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Leo G said:


> I assume you are using a Euro hinge. As far as I know they don't make a 3/8" inset/overlay hinge. The shaker door style you have chosen would best look as an inset door.


I have used the Euro hinge on a partial inset door. They are somewhat more expensive but work well.

Personally I think that whether you use a full overlay, inset, partial inset, or whatever it is a matter of personal esthetics's. Or just what you are used to making. I usually like the partial inset with 1/2 inch lip. However, I am planning on a new bathroom vanity and am thinking that this time I will use an overlay.


G

G


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

If he is trying to keep the old world look full overlay is not going to cut it.


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

Wow what a response. This forum is great. 


So I'm actually definitely not going for old world. I love the 50's but not country cottage kind, i like the clean, mod kind. 

So a few things to further this discussion. 

1. Yes definitely a euro hinge. I hate the hinges I have and donate them to habitat for humanity. I'm sure someone will put them to good use. I don't want to see the new hinges. 
2. So I take it from most posts that doing partially inset would be a tough way to go on the hinge front right? Remember this is my first cabinet project. 
3. BHOFM - that looks cool. Not exactly what I'm looking for very original the way you made it happen. 
4. woodnthings - That is pretty much spot on what I'm looking for. Great job! My only fear is that I would have to reinvent the wheel to have that small of a gab between doors and drawers. You can see from the pic of my cabinets that there is a lot of space between everything. Thoughts?


So far it seems like full overlay is by bar the cheapest and easiest way to go. My only fear is will it look funny with so much gap in between doors and drawers while sticking at the same time sticking out .75". Unlike woodnthing setup i would have to really increase the size of everything to make that happen. 

I want this to look great but also realize it's always a good idea to keep your first project simple.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

If you do a 3/4" overlay it would solve most of your problems. You can make the drawers over sized so that they hang down enough to make a 1/8" gap.


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## NKYDarrell (Sep 14, 2009)

I like those cabinets Woodnthings!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

audiokat said:


> So far it seems like full overlay is by bar the cheapest and easiest way to go. My only fear is will it look funny with so much gap in between doors and drawers while sticking at the same time sticking out .75". Unlike woodnthing setup i would have to really increase the size of everything to make that happen.



Here is a Blum hinge that mounts on the front of the FF and allows the door to install anywhere on the FF. So, if you take good measurements, you can end up with 1/8" between doors...no problem. There are other brands that have this same type of hinge/plate, like Grass, Salice, Hettich.


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

Leo G said:


> If you do a 3/4" overlay it would solve most of your problems. You can make the drawers over sized so that they hang down enough to make a 1/8" gap.



So you are thinking to keep all the door widths the same but just bring the bottom of the drawer face down to so it gets about 1/8" from the doors right? That seems like it would look good.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

"2. So I take it from most posts that doing partially inset would be a tough way to go on the hinge front right? Remember this is my first cabinet project."

I think you got the wrong impression. There is no problem with this approach from a degree of difficulty direction. The only problem is that the hinges cost more.

G


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

GeorgeC said:


> "2. So I take it from most posts that doing partially inset would be a tough way to go on the hinge front right? Remember this is my first cabinet project."
> 
> I think you got the wrong impression. There is no problem with this approach from a degree of difficulty direction. The only problem is that the hinges cost more.
> 
> G


Makes sense and definitely is a big factor for this project.


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

How deep should the grooves for panels be?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Groovy!*

About 3/8" at the most by 1/4" wide for plywood but remember that 1/4" plywood is not 1/4" anymore, it's a touch less so you might want to use a dado set up rather than a groove cutting bit in the router table. Not too snug however since they should move a little, but not much using plywood. Solid panels or glue-ups will move more. :thumbsup: bill


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

A touch less??? Most of the 1/4" ply I get is now 5mm. Just over 3/16"


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

How much space do you guys usually give the panel? Let's say my inside dimensions for one of the doors are 41" x 11" So after the grooves in the stiles and rails that would be 41 3/4" x 11 3/4 . So how much smaller would you make the panel? 1/16 or 1/8? 

Steve


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Real wood panel, start out at 1/16" per side for a 10" board. And another 1/16" for every 5" you add. So a 15" panel would have be at least 3/16" smaller than a tight fit. Plywood or MDF you could make it just a tad smaller, shouldn't move much. All my panels are 1/4" smaller than a tight fit. So I have a 1/8" gap all around. Why take a chance? Seal the endgrain and you will limit movement even more.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That would be;*

A "touch over" 3/16th? Or a "touch less" than a 1/4"? I guess it depends on who's doin' the touchin' here you or me! :laughing: bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

When I use a 1/4" (or so) plywood panel that gets inserted in a groove in the R&S, It's cut 1/16" smaller than the overall groove dimension. IOW, it should have about 1/32" clearance so that the joints will close up. The plywood panel can be glued in and it will make the door more rigid. Make sure before clamping up that the door is square and that the R&S's are flat.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Leo, How did you do that?*



woodnthings said:


> A "touch over" 3/16th? Or a "touch less" than a 1/4"? I guess it depends on who's doin' the touchin' here you or me! :laughing: bill
> 
> 1/4" plywood use to be 0.250" Then it shrunk to 7/32", now it is 5mm which is 0.197". 3/16=.1875 so it is about 9/1000" thicker than 3/16"
> 
> When you lose 1/16" on a 3/4" panel it isn't going to really affect the integrity of the panel. But when you lose 1/16" on a 1/4" panel that is 25% less thick. It becomes flimsy. I no longer use 1/4" (5mm) plywood because it is to flimsy for my standards. It does get used on occassion because 1/2" would be to thick for the application, specifically skins on cabinets. The backs of my cabinets and the bottoms of my drawers are now 1/2".


Moderator's editing techniques? This post has my name on it but..."last edited by LeoG...." You just tryin' to make me look good?

BTW I checked out 1/4" plywood at the HD today and they have it in all the above thicknesses including 1/4", but most is 5 mm and still labeled as 1/4"! So The answer seems to be get your stock and adjust your dado stack to suit...if the thickness is adequate for the application.
:laughing: :blink: bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Moderator's editing techniques? This post has my name on it but..."last edited by LeoG...." You just tryin' to make me look good?.
> :laughing: :blink: bill



It's a brave new world.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

woodnthings said:


> Moderator's editing techniques? This post has my name on it but..."last edited by LeoG...." You just tryin' to make me look good?
> 
> BTW I checked out 1/4" plywood at the HD today and they have it in all the above thicknesses including 1/4", but most is 5 mm and still labeled as 1/4"! So The answer seems to be get your stock and adjust your dado stack to suit...if the thickness is adequate for the application.
> :laughing: :blink: bill



OOPS !! I thought I was editing my post. Darn edit button works on everybodies posts.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

woodnthings said:


> A "touch over" 3/16th? Or a "touch less" than a 1/4"? I guess it depends on who's doin' the touchin' here you or me! :laughing: bill





1/4" plywood use to be 0.250" Then it shrunk to 7/32", now it is 5mm which is 0.197". 3/16=.1875 so it is about 9/1000" thicker than 3/16"

When you lose 1/16" on a 3/4" panel it isn't going to really affect the integrity of the panel. But when you lose 1/16" on a 1/4" panel that is 25% less thick. It becomes flimsy. I no longer use 1/4" (5mm) plywood because it is to flimsy for my standards. It does get used on occassion because 1/2" would be to thick for the application, specifically skins on cabinets. The backs of my cabinets and the bottoms of my drawers are now 1/2".


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

cabinetman said:


> It's a brave new world.
> 
> 
> I fixed it. I don't want to be Big Brother or anything like that.
> ...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Just when I thought I had a Big Brother!*

Quote"OOPS !! I thought I was editing my post. Darn edit button works on everybodies posts."

A little power in the wrong hands could ........:blink:

.....to help me look good he realises he's made a horrible mistake! 
Oh well, I'll bet that's the first time that ever happened...kinda' cool! Thanks anyway, Leo. :thumbsup: bill


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I usually catch myself. What happened is I wanted to use the quote and hit my edit button. Just went on my merry way. Usually I catch it before I hit enter. Blew right by this one. :blush:


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

In regards to the dado stack, my table saw is a cheapo delta contractor saw. I'm not sure I trust it to handle the dado nor do I know it would even work. Would it be better to just do it on the router table?


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

audiokat said:


> In regards to the dado stack, my table saw is a cheapo delta contractor saw. I'm not sure I trust it to handle the dado nor do I know it would even work. Would it be better to just do it on the router table?


Most dado blade setups are 8" in dia.
Your table saw should run it fine. Just ease into the cut on a scrap piece of material that is similar in size as your door rail or stile to test it.
You could even use your standard saw blade if the teeth width are narrow enough to cut the groove for the 1/4" ply. Just adjust the fence.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

*A few pennies worth*

In many of the "California Bungalows" of the 1940s and 1950s there was a door style used that was easy, cheap and could be either overlay or inset. These doors were mainly paint grade.

The door was made by first cutting a piece of 1/2" or 3/8" plywood to the exact size and shape needed for the opening. (Today I would use Baltic Birch for this.) Then a frame was glued to the plywood. Typically, 3/8" to 1/2" stock was used for the frame but 3/4" would be OK if the shelves in the cabinet allowed enough clearance for flush inset doors.

Round over the frame edges before gluing and miter the corners of the frames to install them. I've seen these doors painted solid or painted and wiped so that the grain shows. Both look rather good for paint grade doors. (Paint grade doesn't float my boat, but YMMV.)


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

rrich said:


> In many of the "California Bungalows" of the 1940s and 1950s there was a door style used that was easy, cheap and could be either overlay or inset. These doors were mainly paint grade.
> 
> The door was made by first cutting a piece of 1/2" or 3/8" plywood to the exact size and shape needed for the opening. (Today I would use Baltic Birch for this.) Then a frame was glued to the plywood. Typically, 3/8" to 1/2" stock was used for the frame but 3/4" would be OK if the shelves in the cabinet allowed enough clearance for flush inset doors.
> 
> Round over the frame edges before gluing and miter the corners of the frames to install them. I've seen these doors painted solid or painted and wiped so that the grain shows. Both look rather good for paint grade doors. (Paint grade doesn't float my boat, but YMMV.)



That's interesting Rich. Any picture examples by chance?


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

audiokat said:


> That's interesting Rich. Any picture examples by chance?


Unfortunately no pictures. I had never seen one until (While working at Rockler) somebody brought one in to replace hinges.

I was absolutely astounded when I saw it. As I examined it closely it became obvious how it was built and how easy it would be to build one.


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## audiokat (Aug 6, 2008)

Alright guys, it's coming along. I decided as a test drive to turn an old built in near my kitchen into a panty. That way I could try to make my mistakes before getting to the kitchen. Here's the pic of the doors I did. In order to hide some of crappy wood work I had to make the panels a lot bigger than the opening. 

Anyone have any good sources for a Front face mounted hinge that's concealed and cheap?

Thanks for all the help so far.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Face mounted and concealed?*

I bought some at Home Depot the mount to the edge of the face frame, 10 for $20.00 with a 5/8" overlay. Don't know your other requirements, but there's a ton of hinges out there. :yes: bill
Check here: http://hardwaresource.com/


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