# Painting cabinets



## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I'm just about to finish the job in the picture below. I built and painted the cabinets but I was wondering what method and materials others use.

Please let me know how you would have done it and what materials you would have used. This particular job has a light glazing in the groves of the beadboard center panels and around the outside edge so include what materials you would have used for that as well. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would have started with Bushwacker white lacquer primer available at Sherwin Williams. Then topcoat with a Gemini pigmented lacquer. I normally use a oil based glaze. The last one I used was made by Illusions.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

When I paint or match exsisting cabinets:

1. I mix/tint/shade to the color I need with Sherwin Williams SHER-WOOD® Vinyl Basecoat, P63 series. Apply 2 coats. 

2. Apply Sherwin WIlliams catalyzed F3 sealer, since I use a catalyzed topcoat on kitchen cabinets.

3.*IF* I use a wipe stain after my paint, which is the S64 Sherwood Wiping Stain Concentrates, I mix them with a Mixture of 70% Mineral spirits and 30% Naptha, or use a premade Sherwood S64 wipe stain.

4. Apply another coat of F3 catalyzed sealer, if I used a wipe stain.

5. Then i use either a premade or selfmade oil glaze from the S66 Sherwood Glaze line. 

6. Finally, 2 coats of catalyzed conversion varnish. Sherwin Williams SHER-WOOD® KEMVAR® Conversion Varnish, in the V84F series.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

Thanks guys. I was just wondering what some other ways were to do it. This is the second time I've used this color on cabinets and only the second time I've ever painted/glazed cabinets. I didn't know on the first set so I had my Sherwin Williams store set me up with what they recommended. They turn out awesome but wondered if there was a quicker way.

The method I used for the two sets is to use a tinted ez sand Alk White primer, sand then topcoat with pro classic alk semi gloss enamel. Glaze where wanted then scuff and topcoat with Sherwood cab acrylic.

Takes time but is an awesome, flawless finish.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Most of the time you will have to apply a sealer over your base coat when using a glaze because the glaze will alter the color slightly if you don't seal the base coat first. 

Nothing wrong with what you did, but for a more durable finish, I would use a conversion varnish as my topcoat instead of the cab acrylic.

Sherwin Williams also makes a powder glaze in white Grey and black. You apply it and in a 5 minutes in turns into a powder. Then you simply wipe or brush over the glaze and leave it where you want too. Its like removing dust and leaving dust where you want it. Very easy to use.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)




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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

RandyReed said:


> Most of the time you will have to apply a sealer over your base coat when using a glaze because the glaze will alter the color slightly if you don't seal the base coat first.
> 
> Nothing wrong with what you did, but for a more durable finish, I would use a conversion varnish as my topcoat instead of the cab acrylic.


 
I will probably use the conversion next time. If there is a next time. An awful lot of work to paint cabinets. I'm definitely gonna charge more money.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

On average, I charge around $1500-$2000 when doing the above finishing schedule I listed, wiping stain and glaze used.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Let me add to what I said above about my price.

I get all my materials free as well and that helps a GREAT deal, LOL. I also have the opportunity to work out the systems at work and show them to my customers for approval before doing the work. I also hate doing older cabinets because of all the prep work involved. Newer houses, which I've been doing lately are easy because there's not much prep work involved.

I would be curious as to what other people charge for a similar project.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

Yeah, I need to add about $1000.00 to my total price to cover painting. Sad thing is customers don't know how much work is involved in prep like masking. They are never there to see how long it really takes. They just want to know why it takes so long.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Conversion varnish would be a better choice for the alkyd paint you used. I'm surprised you didn't experience some lifting putting cab acrylic lacquer over oil. The solvents in lacquer are normally too strong for oil based paint. 

I hate painting cabinets. It shows every tiny defect and you work yourself to death to get it right.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

Steve Neul said:


> Conversion varnish would be a better choice for the alkyd paint you used. I'm surprised you didn't experience some lifting putting cab acrylic lacquer over oil. The solvents in lacquer are normally too strong for oil based paint.
> 
> I hate painting cabinets. It shows every tiny defect and you work yourself to death to get it right.


 I did a little bit in an area I had to repair. I think what saved me overall is I allowed plenty of dry time before applying the acrylic other than when I had to repair an area. That's when I experienced some problems but did get them fixed eventually.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Big Dave said:


> I did a little bit in an area I had to repair. I think what saved me overall is I allowed plenty of dry time before applying the acrylic other than when I had to repair an area. That's when I experienced some problems but did get them fixed eventually.


The dry time doesn't really help. Sometimes you can put lacquer over enamel years later and have lifting. Actually I've had better luck using lacquer sooner than waiting for it to cure. Still it's better to avoid the gamble altogether and use compatible products.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I agree. But I used what was recommended by the professionals at my local S/W store. Haha.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Big Dave said:


> I agree. But I used what was recommended by the professionals at my local S/W store. Haha.


Easy Big Dave, thats where I work, but Im strictly on the industrial side, LOL!

You can shoot Cab Acrylic over oil and have great adhesion.....Im guessing you used something like a T75F18? But, in the future if you decide to use an acrylic, I suggest using a sealer first, like a T67F3 high build sealer, then apply the CAB. You need to do this to meet KCMA specifications.

I always suggest using a conversion varnish as a topcoat as it has excellent clarity just like a CAB. The only downfall is you have to catalyze it, and if you use a sealer underneath it at some point, the sealer has to be catalyzed as well......but its the most durable finish you can put on kitchen and bathroom cabinets. Very easy to sand.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

RandyReed said:


> Easy Big Dave, thats where I work, but Im strictly on the industrial side, LOL!
> 
> You can shoot Cab Acrylic over oil and have great adhesion.....Im guessing you used something like a T75F18? But, in the future if you decide to use an acrylic, I suggest using a sealer first, like a T67F3, then apply the CAB.
> 
> I always suggest using a conversion varnish as a topcoat as it has excellent clarity just like a CAB. The only downfall is you have to catalyze it, and if you use a sealer underneath it at some point, the sealer has to be catalyzed as well......but its the most durable finish you can put on kitchen and bathroom cabinets. Very easy to sand.


 
It was T75F17. The reason they recommended it was because it wouldn't yellow and the blue color would have turned green with regular lacquer. At the time I did the first I had never used conversion but I have now and love it. I will definitely try it next time.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

I would have used lacquer based products through the whole process except for the final coat, that would have been conversion varnish.

If the base color has much depth to it, I always have the primer tinted to match. That helps give even coverage. Using lacquers also speeds the process over enamels.

All that said, very nice work. I add a 20%-25% upcharge for tinted finishes. As you've seen, there is considerably more work involved.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Big Dave said:


> It was T75F17. The reason they recommended it was because it wouldn't yellow and the blue color would have turned green with regular lacquer. At the time I did the first I had never used conversion but I have now and love it. I will definitely try it next time.


I figured that the T75 was the line you used. Here is the gloss levels:
Gloss .................................... T75C15 
Bright Rubbed Effect ........... T75F16 
Medium Rubbed Effect ........ T75F17 
Dull Rubbed Effect ............... T75F18 

I figured since you used a glaze, you would have used the T75F18 for a lower gloss.

Here is the conversion varnishes I recommend, they are water white and also do not yellow off:
Gloss ....................................V84V80 
Bright Rubbed Effect ............V84F81 
Medium Rubbed Effect .........V84F82 
Dull Rubbed Effect ...............V84F83 
Catalyst .................................V66V21 (ADD 3% to every 1 PART)


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

RandyReed said:


> I figured that the T75 was the line you used. Here is the gloss levels:
> Gloss .................................... T75C15
> Bright Rubbed Effect ........... T75F16
> Medium Rubbed Effect ........ T75F17
> ...


Cool, Thanks.

As a side note this is in a hunting cabin. One of the members of the hunting club that uses this cabin is affiliated with Sherwin Williams. Not sure what he does or where he works or even his name, lol, but he was very impressed with the look and finish.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

wericha said:


> I would have used lacquer based products through the whole process except for the final coat, that would have been conversion varnish.
> 
> If the base color has much depth to it, I always have the primer tinted to match. That helps give even coverage. Using lacquers also speeds the process over enamels.
> 
> All that said, very nice work. I add a 20%-25% upcharge for tinted finishes. As you've seen, there is considerably more work involved.


I use SHER-WOOD Vinyl Basecoats (P63 series line) instead of enamels. They have a long line of colors and I can use these to match any color or any swatch I need to match and use it as a basecoat. I also add a sealer to my mix at 35% and they then act just like a lacquer basecoat. Vinyl also has excellent adhesion properties.

You can also reduce these vinyls with thinner to make toners, Spray 
Stains and Pigmented/Dye Stains. I have used these to make dye stains and customers cant tell the difference between them and U dye stains.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Big Dave said:


> Cool, Thanks.
> 
> As a side note this is in a hunting cabin. One of the members of the hunting club that uses this cabin is affiliated with Sherwin Williams. Not sure what he does or where he works or even his name, lol, but he was very impressed with the look and finish.


As long as he is impressed, sometimes thats all that matters. :icon_smile:


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> I use SHER-WOOD Vinyl Basecoats (P63 series line) instead of enamels. They have a long line of colors and I can use these to match any color or any swatch I need to match and use it as a basecoat. I also add a sealer to my mix at 35% and they then act just like a lacquer basecoat. Vinyl also has excellent adhesion properties.
> 
> You can also reduce these vinyls with thinner to make toners, Spray
> Stains and Pigmented/Dye Stains. I have used these to make dye stains and customers cant tell the difference between them and U dye stains.


 What are the Valspar equivalents? :thumbsup:

(Sorry, just couldn't resist!)


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

wericha said:


> What are the Valspar equivalents? :thumbsup:
> 
> (Sorry, just couldn't resist!)


THEY HAVE NO  EQUIVALENT !!!! LOL, wericha, that was just wrong!!! 

PS.....I have no idea, and dont care if they do or not HAHA!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The problem with putting lacquer over oil based paints is lacquer contains acetone which is too hot of a solvent for oil based paints. Lacquer works by melting into consecutive coats like shellac and when lacquer tries to melt into oil base paint it gets under it and lifts the finish as though you put paint and varnish remover on it. Oil based paints use a mechanical bond where they bond to the surface rather than melting in. 

I haven't used a lot of Valspar finishes, mostly because I rarely see them in the store. I did paint a tractor with some of their enamel and you could almost see the color fading daily so I don't care to use anymore Valspar products.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The problem with putting lacquer over oil based paints is lacquer contains acetone which is too hot of a solvent for oil based paints. Lacquer works by melting into consecutive coats like shellac and when lacquer tries to melt into oil base paint it gets under it and lifts the finish as though you put paint and varnish remover on it. Oil based paints use a mechanical bond where they bond to the surface rather than melting in.
> 
> I haven't used a lot of Valspar finishes, mostly because I rarely see them in the store. I did paint a tractor with some of their enamel and you could almost see the color fading daily so I don't care to use anymore Valspar products.


True. Thats also why you have to catalyze each sealer you use under a conversion varnish because the acid in the varnish will melt down into the previous applied finishes and cause adhesion problems and eventually the topcoat will flake off and in some instances, peel the entire finish away from the raw wood.

CAB doesnt contain acetone. Thats why I said in the other thread that acrylics do not rewet each other. Not trying to get too technical here, but CAB acrylics contain: 
Lt. Aliphatic Hydrocarbon Solvent, Ethylbenzene,Xylene, Ethanol, Methyl-1-propanol, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Methyl n-Amyl Ketone, Isobutyl Acetate, and Methoxy-2-Propanol Acetate. All are weaker solvents and will not hurt any oil finish EXCEPT for the MEK, but its not enough in it to amount to much. MEK is only added first to dissolve the Ethylbenzene when making the product.

But, its always best to apply a sealer over an oil base, mainly to allow for more build. It usually takes 2-3 coats of CAB to equal the build of 1 coat of a high build sealer once its dry.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Are you saying that someone that thins CAB with lacquer thinner doesn't have acetone in the batch?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Are you saying that someone that thins CAB with lacquer thinner doesn't have acetone in the batch?


Im saying that the CAB acrylic that Big Dave used does not have acetone in that product nor thinner....but I just always suggest a sealer before applying CAB to anything. 

Here is the MSDS for that product which lists all the solvents in it.
http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=MSDS&prodno=T75F17

If I thin any of the T75 products, I use Isobutyl Acetate, which also makes it flow better.


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