# Cabinet hinges



## David K (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm building kitchen cabinets with face frames and inset doors/drawers. For the islands (which get less daily use) I made the doors the old (hard) way, with standard leaf hinges, and a lot of hand-planing to get a uniform reveal.

For the cabinets that will store dishes, the kids will use them more, and I want something to stand up to that treatment. European hinges have done well on the old doors, which were overlay on frameless cabinets. The Blumotion closers look like a good idea.

I couldn't find anything on Blum's web site. Is there a source for European-style hinges that work with inset doors on a framed cabinet? If not, who makes a hinge for an inset door on a frameless cabinet? (I could install blocks behind the frame to support the hinges, if I have to)


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I don`t believe they make a hinge for 3/8ths inset doors on frameless cabinets. There is a hinge that requires a curf on the back side of the door and is 3/8ths inset /3/8ths overlay. It is a production hinge....and most woodworkers don`t like them! You will need to add THE BLOCK!


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Sorry I don`t know why I said that you need the block...you do not need it with the hinges.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Here is one type of inset FF hinge.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Inset and flush are two different styles...


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## David K (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks!

I tried calling Woodworker's Supply of New Mexico, because they show some inexpensive hinges. It turned out they have two catalogs, one for amateurs and one for pros. The pro catalog has just what I wanted, and made by Blum.

You have to buy one part for the cabinet and one for the door. If you want the Blum 'soft closing' feature, it's a part clipped on to the piece attached to the cabinet. For a 120 degree opening:

Door 134-321 120D H/O HINGE CLIPTP SCREW @ 4.89
Cabinet 134-501 CAST ADAPTER FF INSET SCREW @ 3.39
"Blumotion" 150-215 BLUMOTION-INSET 120D HINGES @ 3.59


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I believe that Hafele will have just about any type of hinge that you can imagine.

www.hafele.com Be sure to select United States

I believe that they are basically a wholesale company, but they will set up an account and sell to you retial.

Recently Rockler was out of the european hinges that I needed for a rabbited door I was making. Hafele was the ONLY other place I could find
those hinges.

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

pianoman said:


> I don`t believe they make a hinge for 3/8ths inset doors on frameless cabinets. There is a hinge that requires a curf on the back side of the door and is 3/8ths inset /3/8ths overlay. It is a production hinge....and most woodworkers don`t like them! You will need to add THE BLOCK!



I was re-reading this thread and the OP didn't mention a need for 3/8" inset. What were you referring to?





pianoman said:


> Inset and flush are two different styles...




What's the difference?


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## clampman (Oct 20, 2006)

Years ago, inset doors referred to 3/8" inset usually hung with amerock hinges or a variety of "knife" hinges. Overlay doors were overlay doors and flush doors had the face of the door flush with the face frames.

Today, many younger carpenters call "flush" doors "inset" doors. This is so common in some places that it takes a sentence or two to make absolutely sure what kind of door people want.

"True" inset doors are pretty rare anymore from what I've seen.

Cheers,
Jim


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> I made the doors the old (hard) way, with standard leaf hinges, and a lot of hand-planing to get a uniform reveal.


Sounded like he was making flush mount doors to me.


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## clampman (Oct 20, 2006)

Yes, I agree.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

clampman said:


> Years ago, inset doors referred to 3/8" inset usually hung with amerock hinges or a variety of "knife" hinges. Overlay doors were overlay doors and flush doors had the face of the door flush with the face frames.
> 
> Today, many younger carpenters call "flush" doors "inset" doors. This is so common in some places that it takes a sentence or two to make absolutely sure what kind of door people want.
> 
> ...



We all have interpretations of what certain terms really mean. As far back as I can remember, "flush" doors were more often than not just called "inset" doors, and also referred to drawer fronts. Then there was "3/8" inset" doors, and drawer fronts. And lastly were the overlay configurations.

I guess it depends which side of the mountain you were, and what the suppliers of the hardware called them.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Yes all that is certainly true but...3/8 inset doors have no reveal to be modified by hand planing. The only door configuration likely to have a reveal ( opening or space around the perimeter of the door) are flush mounted inset doors....unless "reveal" is interpreted to mean something else.


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## Jason W (Dec 18, 2008)

This place has some nice stuff too, if you're doing older looking stuff.

Antique Restoration Hardware for Home Renovators. Supply Yourself With Quality Restoration Hardware for Period Home Renovation Projects.


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## Jason W (Dec 18, 2008)

*link was missing*

I just ordered these for my inset doors in my Kitchen project.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> Yes all that is certainly true but...3/8 inset doors have no reveal to be modified by hand planing. The only door configuration likely to have a reveal ( opening or space around the perimeter of the door) are flush mounted inset doors....unless "reveal" is interpreted to mean something else.



That's true, but I'm trying to figure out what brought that on as there was no discussion about "reveal".


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## Jason W (Dec 18, 2008)

David K said:


> I'm building kitchen cabinets with face frames and inset doors/drawers. For the islands (which get less daily use)* I made the doors the old (hard) way, with standard leaf hinges, and a lot of hand-planing to get a uniform reveal.*


:whistling2:

The question is still a little foggy though.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Jason W said:


> :whistling2:
> 
> The question is still a little foggy though.



Not foggy in my book. It's evident that he's talking about flush doors (full inset), *NOT* 3/8" inset. Leaf hinges are the same as butt hinges.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> I'm building kitchen cabinets with face frames and inset doors/drawers. For the islands (which get less daily use) I made the doors the old (hard) way, with standard leaf hinges, and a lot of hand-planing to get a uniform *reveal*.


stop trying to make me think I'm losing my mind!


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## Jason W (Dec 18, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Not foggy in my book. It's evident that he's talking about flush doors (full inset), *NOT* 3/8" inset. Leaf hinges are the same as butt hinges.


It's only foggy to me because he talks about doing something different on the rest of the cabinets:wacko::laughing:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> stop trying to make me think I'm losing my mind!



We sure don't want you to do that. It may seem like we are wringing out this topic, but it can be a little confusing. Having this discussion is good in forums as it allows the differences of understanding to come out. Sometimes this type of discourse is the only way correct information can be disseminated instead of the hearsay stuff.

The nomenclature is fairly basic in the use of terms. A flush door is one that the face is flush with the leading edge of the cabinet whether it's a face frame or the front edge of the carcass. Thus it is a full inset. A 3/8" inset door is one that is set in 3/8" from the front edge, thus a 3/8" inset. This door being 3/4" thick would be proud of the front edge by 3/8". It usually has a 3/8"x3/8" rabbet which overlays the front edge of the FF or cabinet edge by approximately 3/8". Actually it's more like plus or minus 5/16" to allow the shoulder of the rabbet to clear the inside edge of the FF or cabinet.

Now comes the details for the reveal. On full inset doors, the reveal (gap) between the door and the face frame, or leading edge should be equal on all four edges. If it was figured wrong, or too close so that it is tight, it may need trimming, or dressing, which could be done several ways including handplaning. One of the causes may be figuring the spacing for a butt hinge (leaf hinge). The mortise may have been cut too deep allowing the hinged edge to be too close to the cabinet edge (or face frame). 

One way of figuring out the distance is the width of the two leaves when they are parallel. Mortising the depth so the face of each leaf is a smidgen proud of the door and cabinet will allow an adequate space without binding. It will also allow some to be pared off if necessary. This also works well for passage and entry doors.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Getting back to hinging options for a framed cabinet with inset doors and concealed hinges.

Its important to note that a euro style hinge needs 18 mil of "crank" to get the edge of the door thrown over far enough to be inset from the frame.

The link that cabinetman posted showing the euro hinge on a fraceframe base plate is one good way doing it when you have at least 1/2" reveal inside the frame. That gives enough room for that base plate to screw to the back side of the frame.
That plate is worth 9 mil and the "halfcrank" hinge that you have to use has 9 mil of crank. Totaling 18 mil

In cases that you don't have room for that plate inside the cabinet there are a host of other options. The easiest would be to have your box part flush with the edge of the frame, use a 0 mil plate and a "fullcrank" hinge. That hinge has a full 18 mil of crank + 0 for the plate you have your 18 mil.

When thats not possible, say your box part is 3/8" from the frame. Common with a 3/4" part centered behind a 1 1/2" frame.
Use a 6 mil plate and the full crank hinge. The plate makes up for the inside reveal so it acts like a 0 mil plate + the 18 mil in the hinge and you there.

So for those cases where you have less than 1/2" you can play with the plate size to get as close to where a 0 plate on a flush panel would be and use a full crank hinge. Sometimes you may have to play with the tab when you bore the hinge when you are in between plates but it's not that hard.

If you use Blum hinges get the cliptop hinge brochure and learn how to use it. Lots of info = good

You will see alot of guys add small bocks at the hinge locations so they have a flush suface to put thier plate but I think that is a bit tacky.

I hope this helps:smile:


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## Jordy3738 (Jan 12, 2009)

Someone mentioned adding a block to the cabinetry to make the necessary adjustment for the hinge that is available to work, I say add a block. It's always been quicker to make a minor modification on the cabinet in order for hinges to work rather than searching the world for something that starts out being a difficult item to find. Unless I was building a lot of cabinets with this type of application then I would take time to find a hinge that would make things less labor intensive.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Jordy3738 said:


> Someone mentioned adding a block to the cabinetry to make the necessary adjustment for the hinge that is available to work, I say add a block. It's always been quicker to make a minor modification on the cabinet in order for hinges to work rather than searching the world for something that starts out being a difficult item to find. Unless I was building a lot of cabinets with this type of application then I would take time to find a hinge that would make things less labor intensive.


To simplify the concealed hinge world is not an easy task.
If you are going to do projects that require them I think it would be time well spent to study the subject a little. 
Start with choosing an industry leading manufacturer like Blum or Grass or Salice. Get their literature read it until you begin to understand the basic relationship between the hinge and the base plate. Get a grasp on the product line and how you can use the diversity they offer to streamline your hinging chores.
There is not one hinge that can meet all your needs. And each hinge will need a different plate from time to time.
A woodworker's first instinct is to solve a challange with wood, I understand that. But a clean and profesional hinging job should not include blocks of wood where an appropriate hardware choice can fill the same gap.
As far as searching the world over for that impossible part, I think you can find what you need and have it the next day without getting your car keys. You are not going to find what you need at HD or Lowes, that I agree.
These things take time. And we have to be willing to research the issue and make some mistakes. But these concealed hinges are worth the effort.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> We sure don't want you to do that. It may seem like we are wringing out this topic, but it can be a little confusing. Having this discussion is good in forums as it allows the differences of understanding to come out. Sometimes this type of discourse is the only way correct information can be disseminated instead of the hearsay stuff.
> 
> The nomenclature is fairly basic in the use of terms. A flush door is one that the face is flush with the leading edge of the cabinet whether it's a face frame or the front edge of the carcass. Thus it is a full inset. A 3/8" inset door is one that is set in 3/8" from the front edge, thus a 3/8" inset. This door being 3/4" thick would be proud of the front edge by 3/8". It usually has a 3/8"x3/8" rabbet which overlays the front edge of the FF or cabinet edge by approximately 3/8". Actually it's more like plus or minus 5/16" to allow the shoulder of the rabbet to clear the inside edge of the FF or cabinet.
> 
> ...


Mr. Moderator. May I make a suggestion. Can you take this specific post by Cabinetman and somehow make just it a sticky in a "definition" section? I personally have run into problems with potential suppliers trying to describe just what is said here. 

This would make a GREAT reference.

George


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