# Table Saw Top Not Flat? Opinions?



## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

So I just got a Laguna Fusion and I'm loving it so far. I have been using it for a couple weeks, planning to do a re-check and dial-in once things sorta "broke in" a bit. I noticed it seems my top isn't perfectly flat (a peak in the middle of the saw, about where the blade is). Do I need to contact Laguna about getting a new top for this saw? All my straight edges yield the same result with daylight coming through each side. Would love some opinions.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

No opinions necessary on this topic.

Return it immediately to the source.

George


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

GeorgeC said:


> No opinions necessary on this topic.
> 
> Return it immediately to the source.
> 
> George


Thanks George, I was thinking the same thing... I sent customer service a message with these photos and we'll see what they say. They were really cool throughout the whole purchase process (I'm local to them so I just picked it up at their warehouse), so I'm sure they'll handle it for me. I'll keep everyone updated!


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## Cowpokey (Feb 10, 2017)

That's ridiculous. Any chance your straight edge, is really out of true? Hard to believe a new table would be that far off.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

I guess it's possible, but I tried 4 straight edges that I have laying around, of various lengths, and they all show the same result.


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## Cowpokey (Feb 10, 2017)

Using different straight edges is a good sanity check. Have you checked 90º off of the other picture? As in, along surface in line with the blade.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*seasoning cast iron*

I believe it was Powermatic that kept it's castings longer enough to season them before milling. In these days of immediate demand (J.I.T) it's probably likely that your table wasn't cured and it warped.
See post no. 5:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/seasoning-cast-iron-87355/
Large flat surfaces like a table top, are more difficult to reinforce against warping than say an engine block or lathe bed. Added material and ribbing is an additional cost that may not be competitive.

Regardless, it would be in Laguna's best interest to replace the top with one which has been checked.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

How accurately does it cut? There in lies the answer to your question. Generally it takes a pretty sizable deviation to be noticeable in the wood. If the saw cuts well, it's fine. If you're getting deviations in the cuts, then look into warranty.


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## Cowpokey (Feb 10, 2017)

notskot said:


> How accurately does it cut? There in lies the answer to your question. Generally it takes a pretty sizable deviation to be noticeable in the wood. If the saw cuts well, it's fine. If you're getting deviations in the cuts, then look into warranty.


I would have to disagree with most of this. If it cuts true, I would agree...but based on the pictures of the table being out of level, I would return it immediately.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I'd return it. A known flat tabletop is useful for more than just sliding wood thru the blade. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

Cowpokey said:


> I would have to disagree with most of this. If it cuts true, I would agree...but based on the pictures of the table being out of level, I would return it immediately.


We still don't know how well it cuts, and I still think it's premature to return a saw based on a fractional measurement without seeing how well it cuts first. He could very well spend a lot of time and effort to return a saw that functions quite well....then there's the chance he could receive a replacement that doesn't function as well. There's time and cost involved for everyone....it just seems logical to make some test cuts prior to arranging for a replacement.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Even though you used multiple straight edges and they show similar results my first question would be - are all your straight edges as rough looking as the one in the photo? Personally I wouldn't accept anything on a new saw but very close to perfect. That's one reason for getting a new tool - surfaces and edges should be pristine and about flawless, especially on a tool like a Laguna. Any project that didn't turn out great and the undulating table saw top would always get the blame.

But then I'd also wonder what you're building... are you using it for cutting fence posts and boards, framing houses, making sandboxes, etc.? If so the top is not really a factor, but if you're doing fine woodworking with precise joinery and expecting pieces to fit perfectly then there's no way I'd keep that saw top.

My $0.02 - David


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I think Laguna gets their tools from China. Cast iron traditionally was "aged" (months) after casting so the heat stresses were reduced before machining. Modern practice can be to put the top on a high frequency vibrator. There are many grades of cast iron and the formation of the structure can be varied by the rate of cooling. Much will depend on the quality level being attempted by the foundry. Your "straight" edge is questionable but assuming it is more or less true, that top is out quite a ways. I'd want better. 

Let us know what Laguna has to say.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

notskot said:


> We still don't know how well it cuts, and I still think it's premature to return a saw based on a fractional measurement without seeing how well it cuts first. He could very well spend a lot of time and effort to return a saw that functions quite well....then there's the chance he could receive a replacement that doesn't function as well. There's time and cost involved for everyone....it just seems logical to make some test cuts prior to arranging for a replacement.


What I've been cutting thus far, it yields a square cut when checked with a machinist's square. BUT, I've not cut anything thicker than 4/4 or wider than about 6". So, I should do some more test cutting tonight on thicker stock and see what results I get.



difalkner said:


> Even though you used multiple straight edges and they show similar results my first question would be - are all your straight edges as rough looking as the one in the photo? Personally I wouldn't accept anything on a new saw but very close to perfect. That's one reason for getting a new tool - surfaces and edges should be pristine and about flawless, especially on a tool like a Laguna. Any project that didn't turn out great and the undulating table saw top would always get the blame.
> 
> But then I'd also wonder what you're building... are you using it for cutting fence posts and boards, framing houses, making sandboxes, etc.? If so the top is not really a factor, but if you're doing fine woodworking with precise joinery and expecting pieces to fit perfectly then there's no way I'd keep that saw top.
> 
> My $0.02 - David


No, that is an old framing square and was my last tool I used to check. Should have known someone would comment on it (ha!)... I actually didn't even consider using that particular square to check - I was just confused and second guessing my other instruments. As far as what I'm building, I will be cutting some "rougher" stuff with it, but I do a wide variety of projects, many of which will definitely require a saw that will cut as good as I can get it to (precision joinery for furniture, precise angle cuts, etc.).



Larry Schweitzer said:


> I think Laguna gets their tools from China. Cast iron traditionally was "aged" (months) after casting so the heat stresses were reduced before machining. Modern practice can be to put the top on a high frequency vibrator. There are many grades of cast iron and the formation of the structure can be varied by the rate of cooling. Much will depend on the quality level being attempted by the foundry. Your "straight" edge is questionable but assuming it is more or less true, that top is out quite a ways. I'd want better.
> 
> Let us know what Laguna has to say.


Yeah, I've read the same about the iron casting process and curing, etc... No reply from Laguna yet... I may just give them a call if I get no response via email by tomorrow. 

I'll keep everyone posted!


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

woodnthings said:


> I believe it was Powermatic that kept it's castings longer enough to season them before milling. In these days of immediate demand (J.I.T) it's probably likely that your table wasn't cured and it warped.
> See post no. 5:
> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/seasoning-cast-iron-87355/
> Large flat surfaces like a table top, are more difficult to reinforce against warping than say an engine block or lathe bed. Added material and ribbing is an additional cost that may not be competitive.
> ...


Very informative article... Thank you!


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

It is very hard to judge by photos, but from what I see it is very probably within their tolerances, as has been suggested by a fellow that knows his stuff try the saw out and see how it performs.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

Inquiring minds want to know. What's the status with this saw and Laguna's response?


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## dustboy (Mar 24, 2011)

FrankC said:


> It is very hard to judge by photos, but from what I see it is very probably within their tolerances, as has been suggested by a fellow that knows his stuff try the saw out and see how it performs.




Looks to be at least .020-.030 out on the left. From a machinist's perspective, it might as well be a mile. This isn't what he paid for, no way Laguna should get a pass on this one.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for the follow up all! I'm communicating with customer service and will have some updates soon. So far they're just asking all the standard questions to make sure I've set it up correctly and I'm not just a n00b that doesn't know better.


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

Take your best straight edge and using a feeler gage check your depressions and mark your readings on the table.
Take a picture for Laguna and tell them that all the forum members on woodworking talk forum are curious about there quality control.
Leave your framing square out of the picture, they don't need to know how you checked it.
There are specific plates and inspection machines machine shops use to check flatness within millionths of an inch .


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

I haven't gone to that extreme, but that's a great idea. I'll do that for sure.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

The top should be flat, no matter if it cuts good or not, if that is what they accept as good enough, isn't good enough for me if I was paying for it

Hell I use my Unisaw table as a granite slab LOL


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

I wouldn't waste my time making any test cuts.

Return it. It's defective.


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

If they won't take it back, you can always grind it flat yourself. Turn it upside down, tie it to the back of your vehicle and drive around for a few minutes. Recheck it for a perfectly flat surface. 

If it's still not flat, drag it to the store you bought it from, do a snap turn gauged to allow the saw to slide directly through their front window.

When they ask, "What the f%*& are you doing?" Just reply that you were trying to fix their crappy equipment and lost control !!!!


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm guessing that you paid well over $1000 for the saw and if they are dragging their feet on replying my first instinct would be to return it for a full refund and shop elsewhere. It's one thing to get crappy service from Walmart or even the big box stores for an inexpensive item, but Laguna table saws don't exactly grow on trees. If they dragged their feet with me on a high ticket item it would be the last time I'd be doing business with them and everyone I know would know about the lack of service.
Companies with bad customer service need to be exposed to as many people as possible to let them know to shop elsewhere.
There is a well known online store that was going to try to charge me 3-4 times the value of one small item just for shipping. It was a $1.99 item (or something like this) and would easily fit in a standard envelope and yet they wanted around $15 for shipping. Needless to say I won't bother going to their website much less make a purchase from them again. I know many of you still shop with them, but after that I wouldn't buy from them if it were a matter of life and death.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

So far they're being pretty unresponsive. I'm still giving them a chance, but their customer service seems to crawl.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

Here's a front to back photo that I just sent them today. That's almost 1mm off over that span, which is only 12".


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

mkushin said:


> So far they're being pretty unresponsive. I'm still giving them a chance, but their customer service seems to crawl.


That very reason would be the killer with me especially since you picked it up locally, but I guess people must be beating down their door every day to spend big money with them. I'd ask how long is the line of customers outside their door just begging to spend $1000 or more..
What? Zero? The line just got shorter.. lol


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

That is one more thing I like about Grizzly, I have never waited over a few hours for them to respond to any issues I email them about, and if I call they will send you the parts to fix it ASAP

But with all the Grizzly machines I have there has only been one problem with a machine, the others have been caused by the shipper but they took care of it very timely


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## Cowpokey (Feb 10, 2017)

mkushin said:


> Here's a front to back photo that I just sent them today. That's almost 1mm off over that span, which is only 12".


I would tell them to come pick it up and refund the money.


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## dustboy (Mar 24, 2011)

I bought an industrial (American built) CNC router a while back and spent a year doing their troubleshooting for them over the phone. I finally told them to fly a technician out to my shop or send a truck to pick it up. They had a technician on the plane the next week. Wish I had drawn the line after the first month of their BS. 

It turned out to be sloppy machining and they replaced a large gantry beam.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

The odd thing about this is that when we bought our Laguna 14 SUV a couple of years ago I had to use their service after the first cut and they were extremely responsive. 

One of the ceramic guides came loose and ruined the brand new 1" Resaw King carbide blade - ran for all of 30 seconds. Also, a handle was damaged in shipment and Laguna not only stayed on top of it but went the extra mile and sent me a replacement blade and handle very quickly. I got the email confirmation for shipping before I could take the damaged blade off. 

When the blade arrived the same service guy called to see if I needed any help or tips before putting the blade back on, setting the ceramic guides, etc. Laguna later upgraded one handle on the saw and he sent me the new upgraded handle without my even requesting the upgrade. 

So I've now talked to Laguna service a few times and every time they've been just stellar, like you expect from a reputable company. Hate that you're having issues with them but I'm like most of the others in that I wouldn't accept the saw in that condition (as I said in an earlier post on this thread).

Still hope you get it resolved and get to use the saw to make some cool stuff.

David


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

that table is not flat and not acceptable.

hopefully you used a credit card. Federal law provides 60 days from the date of your billing statement to dispute _in writing_ the charge.
do not let that deadline pass - once past you have zero leverage. do not allow yourself to be put off put off promised promised past that deadline.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

dustboy said:


> I bought an industrial (American built) CNC router a while back and spent a year doing their troubleshooting for them over the phone. I finally told them to fly a technician out to my shop or send a truck to pick it up. They had a technician on the plane the next week. Wish I had drawn the line after the first month of their BS.
> 
> It turned out to be sloppy machining and they replaced a large gantry beam.



It wasn't MultiCam was it? Just curious in 2005 I bought a 1000 series plasma cutter from them I had a bunch of problems but they fixed them, it is the same platform as their router they just put a plasma torch where the router went. The machine was $50,000

Later in the year I decided to buy a high def plasma machine from them a 3000 series, it was $100,000, and they couldn't make it run right at all, ended up having to sue them, I won but came out about $50,000 poorer if that makes any sense


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## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

Catpower said:


> That is one more thing I like about Grizzly, I have never waited over a few hours for them to respond to any issues I email them about, and if I call they will send you the parts to fix it ASAP
> 
> But with all the Grizzly machines I have there has only been one problem with a machine, the others have been caused by the shipper but they took care of it very timely


I bought an older used Grizzly drill press and had some questions about the different speeds, basically what were they. I had downloaded the manual but it didn't have the speeds listed for the various belt/pulley combinations. I called Grizzly and they answered my questions and sent me free of charge a chart with all the belt/pulley combinations and speeds. Can't beat that.


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## SteveGee (Apr 13, 2017)

I am in Oz, and have a similar problem. Have used 3 different straight edges, all give the same result. The local agent tells me that 1mm is "well within acceptable tolerances for a woodworking machine of this type and price point". I have contacted Laguna directly, still waiting for a response.


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## Cowpokey (Feb 10, 2017)

SteveGee said:


> I am in Oz, and have a similar problem. Have used 3 different straight edges, all give the same result. The local agent tells me that 1mm is "well within acceptable tolerances for a woodworking machine of this type and price point". I have contacted Laguna directly, still waiting for a response.


Completely unacceptable. With just this thread, I can say Laguna is off of my radar for future tool purchases.

Edit add: I have a "cheap" ($600) Delta table saw, and when I put a straight edge across any part of the cast iron top there is zero daylight showing between the top and any of the straight edges in my shop.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm happy to report that they've agreed to replace the table top, and they're taking good care of me. The CS person I was dealing with at first is a very nice guy, just new.

SteveGee, according to the manufacturer spec sheet they showed me, 1mm is very much NOT within their acceptable deviation. They should end up replacing your top, just as they did mine. They've been very cool.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

MFR. spec sheet attached.


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## SteveGee (Apr 13, 2017)

Thanks for the update, Mkushin. That's good news.


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

Well, the plot thickens. I got the new top... Perfectly flat. I get it home, square it up to the blade, attach the left wing, flush up the front and top, and check the top for flatness again. The main top is now warped in the exact same spot once the wing is attached. Could the ACTUAL problem be the wing?? Seems so... Has anyone else run into something like this? I didn't think the wing being slightly off could actually warp the top like that.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Could be


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

Nevermind, I re-checked and realized the particular warping I was getting suggested I'd tightened down the bolts a little too much that secure the table to the cabinet. Backed those off and it seems fine now... I re-checked the old table top and the warp definitely is still there on that one, so I think everything is A-OK and I've taken the right actions.

I'll check back in once I have the table all back together and calibrated!


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Is the ribbing under the top sufficient to prevent this? Maybe not... Is the top so thin that it is that easily influenced by a tightening sequence, like putting a wheel on a car and tightening opposing lugs? If this is the case I'd have to keep checking the top from flat at rest to undulating when tightened. Maybe you'll find the offending bolt that pushes it over the edge. 

Slowly tighten the bolts and keep checking for flatness. Is the mating edge of the wing perfectly flat and 90° to the top? Make certain there are no defects in the mating edges. 

Not sure if this helps but that's what I would do.
David


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I donno if this would work ....*

But if you can't tighten the bolts down all the way without it warping, then it's floating, probably not a good condition. I would insert a feeler gauge under the top and between the cabinet to see what thickness shim would fit. Then having the proper shim, tighten the bolts to snug plus 1/2 turn .... just guessin' on that, but that's what I do when I'm not sure. It's probably in the manual. :|

Someone here dropped their cabinet saw and torqued the top all up, but somehow flattened it enough to use it. I can't recall who that was... :surprise2:


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> But if you can't tighten the bolts down all the way without it warping, then it's floating, probably not a good condition. I would insert a feeler gauge under the top and between the cabinet to see what thickness shim would fit. Then having the proper shim, tighten the bolts to snug plus 1/2 turn .... just guessin' on that, but that's what I do when I'm not sure. It's probably in the manual. :|
> 
> Someone here dropped their cabinet saw and torqued the top all up, but somehow flattened it enough to use it. I can't recall who that was... :surprise2:



You beat me to the draw. And you can make shims out of beer I mean soda cans, if I recall right they are about .003

I have a Davis and Wells shaper that I had to take the top off of to get a bigger hole machined in it and it had shims to level the table with the cabinet


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## mkushin (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks guys... I can tighten the top pretty decently without it "bubbling" in the middle, but I may end up shimming it a bit. I really appreciate everyone's input on this! I've learned a LOT about machinery over the past couple months (between this and my old Powermatic model 50 jointer), but it's been fun!

And just for the record, it seems the overtightening of the mounting bolts may have been what happened to the original top (so it was overtightened from the factory if that's the case), but that top seems to have suffered permanent damage. The new top, once loosened, has settled back down to flat.


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