# Finishing Cherry - Beginner Questions



## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm making a cherry coffee table as a home woodworking project and am now ready to put the finishes on it but am no sure how to proceed. 

1. I've seen a lot of stuff about "popping the curl". What does this mean? I've done a test-run of wiping the sanded surface down with mineral spirits (to check for patchiness and also remove the last of the sanding dust) and IMO it looks pretty fantastic when wetted - is that the look you go after with 'popping the curl'? Does anyone have any pictures to show what it means?

2. I'd like a finish a little darker than you initially get with BLO and am thinking of doing a Shellac and Glaze as shown *HERE* - question - is Shellac just a clear poly coat or is it some other product? Can anyone recommend a good product?

3. Dumb question - in the above article it recommends to thin the paint to form the glaze. Does that just mean to dilute it with mineral spirits? If so - what level of dilution should I go for?

4. Does wetting the surface with mineral spirits damage the cherry at all? Will it prevent it from aging normally or bleach it or anything? Or does it just harmlessly evaporate away?

I realize these are pretty amateur questions but given the amount of effort that's gone into it so far I don't want to mess it up on the home stretch.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

People like to use what they think are 'hip' phrases. All it means is that when you put a finish on, you want the finish to give the wood grain depth and color. Some wood actually develops a real 3 dimensional appearance when you put the finish on, like you can see hills and valleys in the wood. That sort of wood (quilted or curly) will make you understand what those phrases refer to.

Shellac is not polyurethane. It is made from the secretions of a bug and is an ancient finishing product. 

I did not read your link, but thinning refers to dilution with solvent, usually. The amount of dilution and type of solvent depends on the product you are using, and what the purpose of the dilution is. i.e., when I spray a polyurethane, the type of sprayer I have requires me to thin the poly about 10% with mineral spirits to get an even flow.

Wiping the surface of the cherry with mineral spirits will not harm the wood in any way, and should not affect any finish you apply, either. Just give it time to dry.

All that said, I will offer my opinion on cherry. If you have some good looking pieces of cherry, and you put a clear finish on (no stain) in time and with exposure to light, that wood darkens naturally to a rich, reddish brown. (1-2 years) The variances in color tones throughout the wood add a subtle quality of beauty which gets obscured when you apply a stain to it. A stain will make the colors more homogenous and tend to make it look just like the factory products, rather than your own hand made piece. I know that many people disagree with me about this. So be it. As I said, this is my opinion of cherry.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Stevebo said:


> I'm making a cherry coffee table as a home woodworking project and am now ready to put the finishes on it but am no sure how to proceed.
> 
> 1. I've seen a lot of stuff about "popping the curl". What does this mean? I've done a test-run of wiping the sanded surface down with mineral spirits (to check for patchiness and also remove the last of the sanding dust) and IMO it looks pretty fantastic when wetted - is that the look you go after with 'popping the curl'? Does anyone have any pictures to show what it means? *Basically means making the grain stand out*
> 
> ...


Anything you choose to do, do it first on scrap wood and see what you like the best.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

I think mm_wood answered all your questions pretty well, I just have one thing to add. As mentioned, shellac isnt a polyurethane. Shellac is the secret in of a bug dissolved in alcohol. Shellac is also awesome. It goes one somewhat easy if you pad or spray it, cleans up easy, is food safe and looks fantastic. The only really big disadvantage it has is it itpsnt as water resistant as a varnish would be. 

That said, use a dewaxed shellac and put on a coat of paste wax once the shellac dries, its a gorgeous finish


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

First of all the finish you have shown in the link is completely fake. You might as well as use MDF. It is a faux finish where the burl grain is painted on. You paint the wood with a paint the color of the background color and then use a glaze with a graining tool to simulate the burl grain pattern. Then when the glaze is dry it is topcoated with a clear coating such as a varnish or shellac. http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-paint-a-faux-wood-grain/index.html Be sure you practice the finish quite a bit on a piece of scrap before trying it on your project. It's more of an artistic thing than doing a job. 

I've never heard the term popping the curl. Popping the grain is a common term though which means doing anything to make the grain show up. It's become popular in recent years to use water based finishes. These type finishes have a tendency to make wood look very bland. Therefore you have to work at it to make the grain pop to make it look like a normal finish. This can often be just using linseed oil or an oil stain. 

You could use an oil based paint as a glaze by thinning it with mineral spirits. Personally I would rather use a glazing liquid or at least a gel stain for this. These materials tend to be a little more transparent than paint. 

Rather than wetting the wood with mineral spirits I think you would be better off thinking of the project as a paint grade project and prime the wood prior to the base coat of paint. There you can level the finish and find the defects you didn't know were there. Once you get the wood primed and sanded smooth then apply the base coat of paint.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> First of all the finish you have shown in the link is completely fake. You might as well as use MDF. It is a faux finish where the burl grain is painted on. You paint the wood with a paint the color of the background color and then use a glaze with a graining tool to simulate the burl grain pattern. Then when the glaze is dry it is topcoated with a clear coating such as a varnish or shellac. http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-paint-a-faux-wood-grain/index.html Be sure you practice the finish quite a bit on a piece of scrap before trying it on your project. It's more of an artistic thing than doing a job.


Steve, I think in that picture its showing that the wiping stain was wiped on in a circular motion (which rubs the wipe stain into the grain) and then is being wiped off........at least thats the way I interpreted it.

To the OP......
Alot of people like the look of applying clears on wood, but in my opinion, you cant "pop" the grain unless:
1. you apply a clear and sand it down, then re apply......this really only works on tiger or birds eye maple.
2. apply a wipe stain to darken the grain slightly to make it stand out.

Anything else will just look like its been clear coated.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

They are showing them putting a heavy glaze over sealed wood. It sure looks like an artificial wood graining to me.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> They are showing them putting a heavy glaze over sealed wood. It sure looks like an artificial wood graining to me.


In the directions in the link:
"The technique is simple. First, apply a thin coat of shellac (Step 1). Sand it lightly, apply the colored glaze (thinned burnt umber artists’ oil color—more on this later) and wipe it off." Im sure they wiped the glaze in a circular motion, then started to wipe it off. No big deal, just want to try and verify what is going on in the article.

"Most" of the time you put a glaze over a sealed wood.


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## MSLiechty (Aug 13, 2014)

in my opinion cherry should only receive a clear finish No stain just clear. It will darken over time. Want to give it a head start set it out in the sun for a few hours 

ML


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Cherry doesnt always have to look like cherry to look good. Here is a grey cherry I did with pop:


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Thank you all for your help.



RandyReed said:


> Basically means making the grain stand out


Ahahaaha I should have guessed. Here I've been wondering if it was some special look. Thank you for the very clear and concise answer.



RandyReed said:


> Why not use Minwax Wood Finishes "Cherry" Stain, followed by 2 coats of sealer and a nitrocellulose or pre cat lacquer in the sheen you would like? You can even use waterlox as your topcoat


I've tried a few stains on test pieces, including minwax cherry, but a lot of them seem to either dilute the grain and make it look more mono-tone (Like the "Cherry" stain below) than I like, or it pigments the sections between the rings in a way that either doesn't look like it would age well with cherry (See the "Honey" stain below) or gives an interesting look that I like but stains the wood so darkly that it seems a waste of cherry (See the darkest image of the lot below). 

So I was interested in the glaze option as it looked like you put a clear coat on, so you're not staining the actual wood, and then put a tint on top of that, and then they cherry ages naturally underneath. But from the responses here it sounds like that will give a fairly artificial look to the thing. I'll do a test run on some more scrap before discounting it though.

(Note - all the test ones were sanded more roughly than the finished product and/or were on wood I hadn't planed flat yet, so you see leftover effects from the saw mill - most noticeable on the darkest one)



mmwood_1 said:


> All that said, I will offer my opinion on cherry. If you have some good looking pieces of cherry, and you put a clear finish on (no stain) in time and with exposure to light, that wood darkens naturally to a rich, reddish brown. (1-2 years) The variances in color tones throughout the wood add a subtle quality of beauty which gets obscured when you apply a stain to it.


This is the direction I'm leaning, or maybe use linseed oil to add some slight color to it. I think I've come this far with it that I'll wait a couple weeks for the weather to improve and then give it a few days in the sun when it's not 12 degrees out.

Test Runs: 
Minwax "Cherry" and "Honey"









Boiled Linseed Oil (One side was with a 50% dilution followed by straight BLO, the other with just BLO)









"Dark Walnut" (This piece hasn't been planed, just sanded, so it's got a slight curve and sawmill marks on it, so the light looks a bit odd)


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The main problem you are having with your stain tests is you are not adequately sanding the wood. Some of the wood that may be blotching on you wouldn't do it if is was sanded.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The main problem you are having with your stain tests is you are not adequately sanding the wood. Some of the wood that may be blotching on you wouldn't do it if is was sanded.


I was wondering about that - I didn't do a very thorough sanding job on the test pieces as I was mainly looking at just a rough idea how the wood took the various stains and what color they ended up and wasn't so much worried about the blotchiness, the actual table is sanded down a lot more carefully.

I'll try sanding the test pieces more thoroughly and see if that improves how they look with stains.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Are you after more red or brown?


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> Are you after more red or brown?


Brown.

I liked the "Honey" stain for for color, just not the way it clustered darker next to the growth rings. I'm going to retry it on a more carefully sanded piece like Steve Neul suggested and see if that helps.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Stevebo said:


> Brown.
> 
> I liked the "Honey" stain for for color, just not the way it clustered darker next to the growth rings. I'm going to retry it on a more carefully sanded piece like Steve Neul suggested and see if that helps.


You can highlight the darker areas you don't like with steel wool or red scotch bright.

Properly sanding the wood makes a world of difference.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Not sure what he's after but sounds like he needs to stain it dark then go back and sand then go back with diluted stain or other? Really needs a picture of the effect he is after...

Maybe a Natural stain just to highlight it...


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

I've been following this thread with great interest.
Mainly because I traded labor for a great deal of kiln dried cherry ...All my projects for quiet some time will be in cherry.
My first project was a mission dining room table . I wasn't sure on a finish as cherry looks so bland to me.
Factory stained cherry look like paint......can't stand it.
I used Watco Danish Oil in cherry and then three coats of Arm-R-Seal in satin .
I'm anxious to just clear coat some ...not a big fan of stains , but I'm happy how the table turned out.
Keep it coming guys.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Tree Hugger said:


> I've been following this thread with great interest.
> Mainly because I traded labor for a great deal of kiln dried cherry ...All my projects for quiet some time will be in cherry.
> My first project was a mission dining room table . I wasn't sure on a finish as cherry looks so bland to me.
> Factory stained cherry look like paint......can't stand it.
> ...


Is Danish Oil similar to a BLO finish? Do you have any photos of how it turned out?


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm no expert by any means in finishes but I am very familiar with the Watco Danish oil as I've used it on wood boat trim for many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTXilJCN27Q

For added protection I used general finishes Arm-R-seal in satin. First time ever using it .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY2D_SBNS0M

Picture to follow ...I hope.........darn inside lighting .


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)




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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Stevebo said:


> Is Danish Oil similar to a BLO finish? Do you have any photos of how it turned out?


Danish oil is a mixture of linseed oil, sometimes tung oil, sometimes rosewood oil with some varnish resins mixed into it.


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

Heh heh ...Had to go with a rustic look ( some scratches ) as I only have 4/4 to work with and the top was getting too thin and flexible to work it all out.
Sapwood ? You bet it's part of the tree.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Tree Hugger said:


>


That looks really great.

So, maybe someone knows what's going on here...

When I test the table with mineral spirits to see what it'll look like with a light stain I get a series of bands across two of the boards - I'm going for a pretty rustic look and don't mind them, but am curious what causes them - is it the grain or do I have a lot more sanding to do if I want to get rid of them?

Picture quality is pretty poor and the lighting is terrible....


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

*finishing cherry*

I think others have covered your questions well. I want to comment on finishing the cherry. If I want to deepen the color I take a small can of minwax oil sealer stain and pour the oil off the solids in the bottom of the can. buy this in cherry or mahogany color and get a can of clear to cut the color to what you like (the clear has no solids in bottom). Start on a scrap with the clear and see what color you want to add. wipe it on, if you don't like it wipe on more color or if too much color wipe on clear to lighten it up a bit. Steelwool or sand lightly and top coat with dewaxed shellac or thinned gross varnish. If you want satin, steel wood it down to the sheen you like and wax simple. I know there are many ways to do this and get a good finish, but with this you can't hardly mess up the color you want and you get the durability of varnish. I have used this for many years. Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

"When I test the table with mineral spirits to see what it'll look like with a light stain I get a series of bands across two of the boards - I'm going for a pretty rustic look and don't mind them, but am curious what causes them - is it the grain or do I have a lot more sanding to do if I want to get rid of them?"

if you are referring to those arcing sections across the wood that alternate lighter and darker, that is referred to as 'figure' and is generally a prized characteristic. You will usually pay extra for it, sometimes a LOT extra. It is part of the wood.

If you are referring to the 2 straight lines going across the wood in the lower left corner (the only ones I can see in the picture), those look like milling marks, either from a planer or a bandsaw. To remove those, you need to remove wood.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

I have a few more questions.

I'm moving away from stain to putting the table in the sun for a few days and then finishing with either just use Danish Oil or Boiled linseed oil (which on the tests I've done looks similar to the wood with mineral spirits, and I like that look) with a clear finish or just put a clear finish on the cherry without any other finishing.

With Danish Oil - my take is that this is a one stop shop product where you just apply the oil in a similar manner as plain BLO but that it has varnishes in it to give a protective coat. Is that correct?

If I go with BLO followed by a clear finish, or just a clear finish, it seems like Shellac would be a good option.

Do I just use shellac out of the can from Home Depot like *THIS*? Is that just ready-mixed flakes or is it something different than I'd get if I started with flakes?

Is shellac durable? It sounds like it's not as tough as polyurethane but should hold up to the day to day demands of a coffee table - is that a fair assessment?

Does anyone have recommendations for how to apply shellac - It sounds like it might be tough to apply to the table legs and then to the table top in a single effort - should I do the legs in one go and then the top in a following effort or is it better to just start at one end of the table and finish at the other?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Be careful sitting the table in the sun. It can quickly dry one side of it causing the top to warp.

Yes you can make a film finish with Danish oil however it will take a lot of coats to do it. 

Shellac is a fine finish however isn't suited for someone that doesn't have the equipment to spray it. You can just pick up a can of it from Home Depot however it would make a better finish if you bought it in a flake form and mixed it yourself. Once mixed shellac has a shelf life and you don't know how long the can has set on the shelf at Home Depot. The reason it needs to be sprayed is forever denatured alcohol will dissolve the finish. You can get away with brushing one coat on but when you try to brush the second coat on the alcohol in the finish dissolves the first coat as you are brushing it on. Then before you have very many coats on you have it real thick in spots and very thin in spots. The benefit of using shellac is if there is ever a scratch or damaged place on it alcohol will dissolve the spot away. I have a customer that had a table shipped from India which had a shellac finish on it and the shipping container had a leak and ruined the finish down one side of the table. I was able to just wet the finish with alcohol and you would never know it was ever damaged. It's not as durable as polyurethane however if that table had polyurethane on it the table would have to be refinished to fix the finish.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> It's not as durable as polyurethane however if that table had polyurethane on it the table would have to be refinished to fix the finish.


Thank you.

A followup question - are there many visual differences between shellac over BLO and polyurethane over BLO?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It depends on how thick you go with the finish. To me a finish should be 3 mills thick which is about the thickness of a lawn and leaf trash bag and either would look about the same except Shellac only comes in a gloss sheen. There is a product called shellac flat that can be added to it to make it semi-gloss or satin. Polyurethane put on thicker really gets the appearance of plastic. Shellac if you mean standard shellac should not be put over BLO. It won't adhere very well unless you let it completely dry which could be a couple weeks. A de-waxed shellac such as Zinsser Sealcoat can be put over BLO.


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> It depends on how thick you go with the finish. To me a finish should be 3 mills thick which is about the thickness of a lawn and leaf trash bag and either would look about the same except Shellac only comes in a gloss sheen. There is a product called shellac flat that can be added to it to make it semi-gloss or satin. Polyurethane put on thicker really gets the appearance of plastic. Shellac if you mean standard shellac should not be put over BLO. It won't adhere very well unless you let it completely dry which could be a couple weeks. A de-waxed shellac such as Zinsser Sealcoat can be put over BLO.


Sorry to keep bouncing around with questions here...

What type of poly would be best? Gloss, semi gloss, satin? Or is that all down to personal preference?


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Stevebo said:


> Sorry to keep bouncing around with questions here...
> 
> What type of poly would be best? Gloss, semi gloss, satin? Or is that all down to personal preference?


Personal preference. They're all as strong as one another, just different sheens. Personally, I'd recommend a semi - gloss. Trying to get a high gloss looking good is a nightmare, and then it shows every ding and scratch you can put on it, and a satin just isnt glossy enough for my taste. A semi gloss is a nice middle ground. For what its worth though, I'd use poly instead of shellac for a cover table. I love shellac, but it doesn't have the durability a cover table needs. 

If you go with poly, ditch the BLO, you won't need it to get the color. Get a regular can of gloss poly and a spray can of semi gloss. Brush on two or three coats of the gloss, sanding between coats. Sand the last coat of the brushed on stuff, then spray on a coat or two of the semi gloss. You'll thank me later


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Stevebo said:


> Sorry to keep bouncing around with questions here...
> 
> What type of poly would be best? Gloss, semi gloss, satin? Or is that all down to personal preference?


When they make polyurethane with different sheens they put a powder in it which looks like baby powder as a flattening agent. The more of this powder they use the flatter the sheen. This powder weakens the finish and makes it less water proof. Also the more of this powder that gets in the finish the cloudier the finish will be. Therefore if a satin or flat finish is desired it would be better to use multiple coats of gloss to build the finish and use the satin or flat finish for the final coat. That way it minimizes the flattening agent in the finish and having the foundation of the finish gloss provides the waterproofing.

It's difficult to say what sheen I prefer. Some companies satin is other companies semi-gloss and the sheen I prefer would vary from project to project.


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

*shellac finish You don't have to have costly*



Steve Neul said:


> Be careful sitting the table in the sun. It can quickly dry one side of it causing the top to warp.
> 
> Yes you can make a film finish with Danish oil however it will take a lot of coats to do it.
> 
> Shellac is a fine finish however isn't suited for someone that doesn't have the equipment to spray it. You can just pick up a can of it from Home Depot however it would make a better finish if you bought it in a flake form and mixed it yourself. Once mixed shellac has a shelf life and you don't know how long the can has set on the shelf at Home Depot. The reason it needs to be sprayed is forever denatured alcohol will dissolve the finish. You can get away with brushing one coat on but when you try to brush the second coat on the alcohol in the finish dissolves the first coat as you are brushing it on. Then before you have very many coats on you have it real thick in spots and very thin in spots. The benefit of using shellac is if there is ever a scratch or damaged place on it alcohol will dissolve the spot away. I have a customer that had a table shipped from India which had a shellac finish on it and the shipping container had a leak and ruined the finish down one side of the table. I was able to just wet the finish with alcohol and you would never know it was ever damaged. It's not as durable as polyurethane however if that table had polyurethane on it the table would have to be refinished to fix the finish.


spray equipment to do a shellac finish. Just get a cotton rag and make a "rubber" and pad it on with a few drops of linseed oil to keep it from sticking. This is called "French polishing" takes awhile to do but nothing is finer looking goggle it to see what I'm talking about


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