# Any reason not to get the 5hp table saw?



## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

So I've been planning on getting the 1023rlw grizzly table saw. 
http://grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLW
But I was looking at them (again!!) tonight and saw the 5hp version is only $20 more. 
http://grizzly.com/products/10-5-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLWX
Why would anyone buy the 3hp????


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

About the only reason I can think of is if you don't have adequate power or space in your panel to properly support a 5 HP motor.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I haven't run across anything I can't rip with the 3 hp model, and that includes 8/4 hard maple. A few bucks for the 5 hp model would be hard to pass up, though. Shows 240v single phase.

I say go for it.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Gas costs.

See, you're gonna have to drive 2 counties over to recover your offall if the 5hp motor launchs a post, where the 3hp is only 1 county.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

bauerbach said:


> Gas costs. See, you're gonna have to drive 2 counties over to recover your offall if the 5hp motor launchs a post, where the 3hp is only 1 county.


True true


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

iI have owned and operated 5HP 3phase 10" table saws before. They were great for heavy production work, like ripping 1000 bd ft of 8/4 oak. They just gobbled it up. The 3HP would strain and maybe trip the override button. 

I don't do that type of production work anymore so the 3HP 240v 1Phase provides all the power I need now. I am not sure what the amp draw is on a 5HP but it would cost more for the wiring and the circuit breaker. On the 3HP, 30 amps would be more than enough, 20 might even do. 

Talk to an electrician. Obviously I am not one.

Bret


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

I believe the website said 15 amp for the 3hp and 30 for the 5.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Power requirements. That 3hp model requires its own dedicated 30amp 240v circuit with the heavy wiring to match. The 3hp however, is half that at 15 amp. If my memory serves me correctly, most residential and a good portion of commercial breakers for 220 lines are either 25 or 30 amps, so at best youd be pushing the limits for the large saw, whereas the smaller on you could conceivably run the saw and a smaller dust collector on the same circuit.

I have to add that im a maintenance man, not an electrician, so take my advice with a pinch of salt, as theres a decent chance im wrong about the standard breaker sizes


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It might only be a waste of money to get a saw with a 5hp motor. A 3hp motor will do any work you need except if you were several hours cutting thick hardwood the 3hp motor might get hot and you would have to stop and let it cool.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

I realize I would probably never need the 5hp motor. I mostly cut 2" soft woods at present, of course that might change in the future. And I'm having my 1944 building completely rewired so having a dedicated circuit just for the saw isn't a problem. I'm just having a hard time passing up the bigger motor for only $20 more. And I have a hard time understanding why the bigger motor is only $20 more...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*here's the deal*



michaelpugh said:


> So I've been planning on getting the 1023rlw grizzly table saw.
> http://grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLW
> But I was looking at them (again!!) tonight and saw the 5hp version is only $20 more.
> http://grizzly.com/products/10-5-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLWX
> Why would anyone buy the 3hp????


For $20.00 more you can hurt yourself more better if you have a kickback, a pinched board after the blade, a twisted board along the fence or a failure to hold the stock down during the pass. 

In either case the power difference won't matter if you put your hands or fingers in the blade, they will be amputated equally better.

All my 3 HP motors run on 20 AMP circuits with no. 12 feed wire, 220 V of course. My 5 HP saw needs a 30 AMP circuit and dims the neighborhood will I power it up..... :no: It's scary powerful. Free advice.......


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I run two 5hp direct drive saws, wouldn't want any less.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Here's the analogy I would use. You have a 3500 lb boat. You tow it to the lake 20 miles away a few dozen times a year....you can buy a half ton truck or a 1 ton..... 

The one ton is built like a tank, and will do the job well...but it's just not needed and the downside is it will ride much rougher. 

The half ton will do the job just fine, and will all in all be the right choice. 

Back to the saws...the 5 hp will do the job, but it requires more expensive wiring, and in the event of a kick back, it's far more severe. It's not much upside, the 5 hp will not do anything in a hobby shop the 3 hp won't do, and there is a downside. 

Just my opinion.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

There is minimal extra expense in wiring, 20 bucks on the single phase side? Extra buck for the breaker nothing real extra if wired with thnn. 

More kick back? thats as silly as the wiring expense.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

But again, what's the upside? 3 hp will cut 10/4 all day long in a home shop. 

And we'll just agree to disagree on the kick back issue....


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> More kick back? thats as silly as the wiring expense.


Not "more" kickback just a lot more of it when it does. I can stall my 3 HP 10" saw if I have to, and that's why I use a splitter and have a hip bump off switch. I want both hands on the stock before I shut it off.

I will guess you run a 14" to 16" wide kerf blade which makes a kickback rare if not very unlikely. The think kerfs don't have any room for wood closing on the blade and are more prone to kickback....that's just my experience with them. It's been a long while since I ran a full kerf blade on the Frankensaw.

My very first pass on my new 5 HP Powermatic 12" was a piece of crate wood, some sort knotty Pine I think. I said "I know how to do this, I ripped all kinds of stock before". But, I didn't have the splitter on, and the wood closed on the blade and it "exploded" in front and all around me......  Scared the crap out of me. 

Warner runs all sort of big, heavy machines, nothing he owns is smaller than a VW and weighs more.... unlike anyone else on the forum here, so you come from a different point of view. The homeshop guys with a 1 HP, 1 3/4 HP, 2 HP and 3 HP saws won't have the same experience as you in either sense of the word. :no:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

As long as you have the power requirements to run it and a dust collector. I would go for it. You will never make a cut and say, I sure wish this saw has less power. You might fire up a 3 hp saw and want more power. My grizzly saw is rated 2hp probably less. 99.9 percent of my work is 4/4 or less. It rips 4/4 hard maple great. Anything thicker and more power is wanted.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So I agree here...more power than 2hp is great...3 hp is 50% more....5 hp is 2 1/2 times more...

Have you ever needed 2.5 times more power?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*anyone here...*

Does anyone here besides Warner and I actually own or operate a 5 HP saw? If you don't, you don't understand.
Just sayin' .......

A 5 HP 10" saw is made for 24/7 operation runnin' all day, cuttin' 8/4 stock. For thicker stock they will have a 12" or 14" saw. You don't need 5 HP to cut 3/4" MDF or 1" hardwood, or 8/4 hardwood, or even 12/4 if you go slow and have the correct blade using a 3 HP saw.

I actually prefer my 18" bandsaw for cutting thick stock, no kickback, motors right on through.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I ran a 5hp pm66 for 6 months, that saw is almost portable:laughing:

I also think the extra wiring cost is a non issue, its closer to 20 bucks extra, not 100's. 

Any saw can kick back, I find an underpowered saw more apt to having it happen. 

My lumber buster is a 1928 greenlee 495 with a 16" blade, 5hp DD and a stock feeder on it. 

My variety saw is a 1932 Whitney 77 with a sliding left table, 14" blade 5hp dd.

For the extra 20 bucks, buy the 5hp. 

There are times I would like a 7.5hp dd saw.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Does anyone here besides Warner and I actually own or operate a 5 HP saw? If you don't, you don't understand.
> Just sayin' .......
> 
> A 5 HP 10" saw is made for 24/7 operation runnin' all day, cuttin' 8/4 stock. For thicker stock they will have a 12" or 14" saw. You don't need 5 HP to cut 3/4" MDF or 1" hardwood, or 8/4 hardwood, or even 12/4 if you go slow and have the correct blade using a 3 HP saw.
> ...



Precisely what I've been saying all along...it's just not needed, there's not one benefit for a home shop, and there are downsides....if nothing else...repair costs 15 years from now will be more.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

For 20 bucks I would go for the 5hp. Even if you never need it the resale value of the saw would be much higher. I thought we was going to be hundreds of dollars difference.

Woodenthings, I don't own a 5hp saw but have had a great deal of experience with a 5hp Powermatic saw. You can put a powerfeed on it and rip anything all day long without getting it hot.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The resale value will not be terribly higher, many home shops couldn't run it if they wanted. 

Does anyone here that doesn't do production work have a power feeder on their table saw? Again we keep justifying it based on commercial needs, not hobby use.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> Precisely what I've been saying all along...it's just not needed, there's not one benefit for a home shop, and there are downsides....if nothing else...repair costs 15 years from now will be more.


Huh? repair costs of what?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> The resale value will not be terribly higher, many home shops couldn't run it if they wanted.
> 
> Does anyone here that doesn't do production work have a power feeder on their table saw? Again we keep justifying it based on commercial needs, not hobby use.


Its just 5hp.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think we have all made our point. This is turning into an argument.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Yea....so if it was a 20hp motor, it would be the same point...it's not needed for hobby use. It's driving a 10 inch blade...not a 14 or 16...

I've said all I can here....it's my opinion the 5 hp saw is not worth spending any money for. If they offered the 3 and 5 for the same price I would choose the 3.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Well I have a professional shop and only have a 3hp saw and haven't had need of 5hp saw. When I bought my first table saw it had a 2hp motor. It worked fine for hobby work but years later I decided to go into business for myself and the 2hp saw was underpowered and frequently overheated. Because of the expense of changing saws I just lived with it until the saw quit. You just never know what the future might bring. I worry the 3hp saw that I have now will need to be upgraded someday and I will be back to shopping for a bigger saw.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> So I agree here...more power than 2hp is great...3 hp is 50% more....5 hp is 2 1/2 times more...
> 
> Have you ever needed 2.5 times more power?


I had to rip a 20/4 maple beam in half. I had to do it in 3 passes. That was the only time in 10 years I have needed 2.5 times more power.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

And then really you needed a larger diameter saw more than a more powerful saw.


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## Fastback (Sep 2, 2012)

There seems to be two sides to this fence. It was not that many years ago that the standard motor for a Unisaw was a 1.5 hp. That was considered the best of the best. Now we are using 3 hp and still looking for more. Sometimes I wonder if we are rushing a bit too much and trying to push these saws to the limit. I have a 3 hp, 3 phase with a static phase converter, this lowers the HP to 2 hp, because you lose 30% of your hp when you use this type of converter. Anyway, yes I can stop the saw if I try, but with a sharp blade and taking the time needed I can cut anything I require. 

Personally, I can not see the gain for a hobbyist. A 5 hp saw will cost more to operate. We just had a 37% percent increase in our power cost. Why pay for something you really don't need and may never use. Its not how big it is it is how you use it, maybe I'm thinking of something else, but anyway you get my point.

Bottom line is, your paying for it buy what you want.

Paul


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Nobody has to have a 5hp saw. A 1/2 hp saw would get the job done very slowly. A 5 hp or even a 3hp just cuts faster. But since a 5hp only cost 20 dollars more. I would go for it. Ripping 8/4 hard maple or hickory would strain a 3hp saw a 5hp wouldn't even get warmed up.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Fastback said:


> There seems to be two sides to this fence. It was not that many years ago that the standard motor for a Unisaw was a 1.5 hp. That was considered the best of the best. Now we are using 3 hp and still looking for more. Sometimes I wonder if we are rushing a bit too much and trying to push these saws to the limit. I have a 3 hp, 3 phase with a static phase converter, this lowers the HP to 2 hp, because you lose 30% of your hp when you use this type of converter. Anyway, yes I can stop the saw if I try, but with a sharp blade and taking the time needed I can cut anything I require.
> 
> Personally, I can not see the gain for a hobbyist. A 5 hp saw will cost more to operate. We just had a 37% percent increase in our power cost. Why pay for something you really don't need and may never use. Its not how big it is it is how you use it, maybe I'm thinking of something else, but anyway you get my point.
> 
> ...


M 5hp saws were built over a decade before a unisaw. A 5hp motor that is not running anywhere near its FLA will not be anymore expensive then a 3hp saw running near FLA. You also have to look at the efficiency numbers on the motors as well. 

I run a 20hp rpc and sometimes have over 40hp worth of machinery running and my utility bill may increase by 7 bucks a month, if that. 

I really see no down side to spending the extra 20 for 2 more pony's.

10hp has been pretty standard on a lot of saws too.


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Ok here is my question for 3 vs 5 HP. The 3 hp one weights in at a whopping 550 lbs. But the 5 hp one has a weight of 547 lbs. Why is that???????


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Day to day cutting with a powerful saw is pure joy. Standing behind an under powered saw and hoping it doesn't over heat can't suck enough. 

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Edit


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Kansas Gary said:


> Ok here is my question for 3 vs 5 HP. The 3 hp one weights in at a whopping 550 lbs. But the 5 hp one has a weight of 547 lbs. Why is that???????


That was the approximate shipping weight. Not the actual weight.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

For $20 difference it s seems like a no brainer. Id never turn down better options for whats essentially the same price.

I still dont understand why its only 20 bucks between the two.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Kansas Gary said:


> Ok here is my question for 3 vs 5 HP. The 3 hp one weights in at a whopping 550 lbs. But the 5 hp one has a weight of 547 lbs. Why is that???????


I would be suspicious of the $20 difference from the same seller, seems like maybe there could be other short comings on the 5 HP that account for the low price, maybe not but I would take a good hard look.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> I gotta ask...any of you guys with hobby shops and 2 hp or less saws, have you ever had your saw overheat?
> 
> Last year while building my 3 end tables I ripped down the legs to size. They started at 3 inches square....ripped each one 4 times to get to 2.25 square. 32 inches long each....which turns out to be 128 lineal feet through anywhere rom 12/4 to 9/4 stock....I had them all stacked to start so I could do one after another. Saw ran non stop through them all...
> 
> Now my point is....if that didn't overheat it, what do you have to do to overheat the thing?






Is it not possible than even a 'hobbyist' might have a whole days worth of ripping thick hardwood? And is it not possible that the projects they normally like to build might involve this task regularly?

Ripping thick stuff for 1-2hrs at a time all day IMO could definitely warrant a more powerful motor.


I dont think your seeing the difference in what you have done and what some others do with their saws. Just because someone has a 5hp+ saw doesnt mean theyre automatically in production.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Is in not ok to have more saw then needed. I would rather have a way overpowered then an underpowered saw. The 5hp saw will do everything the 3hp will do. My table saw is 2hp, my bandsaw is 1.5 hp, my drum sander is 1.5hp, my lathe is 1.5hp. They all especially the drum sander need more power.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Edit


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Edit...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lets keep the talk 3hp vs 5hp guys. The OP isn't going to read three pages with a lot of off topic bickering.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Sure.......but as I made my opinion known earlier...there are downsides to too much power. You've limited your resale market if you choose to sell it, you increase the kick back danger, you increase your repair costs should it need motor work down the road, up front it needs new wiring.....ect....
> 
> 
> To each their own.....


You can keep your wimpy saw nobody is trying to sell you a bigger one. Since my saw does what I want it to, and I can't afford to upgrade I will have to keep my wimpy saw.If you were buying a new saw it seems like a no brainer. Besides it is easy to spend other people's money. The op will have to make up his own mind.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

Sorry for stirring up a hornets nest


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

michaelpugh said:


> Sorry for stirring up a hornets nest


It happens sometimes. Did you decided on a saw?


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm going with the 5hp. Like someone said I'd rather have too much than too little.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

michaelpugh said:


> I'm going with the 5hp. Like someone said I'd rather have too much than too little.


Good choice, just go through your shop and make sure you can power the bugger. 30 Amps is a lot of power


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

I have the Griz G01023SLX with the 3HP 1PH. I love it. I would love it with the 5HP as well. I also have an older unisaw which is OK but I have never considered it to be even close to "the best"


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Good choice, just go through your shop and make sure you can power the bugger. 30 Amps is a lot of power


Also make sure you left enough juice to run your dust collecter.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm having the shop completely rewired. The electrician and I will definitely go over where everything is going and how much power each tool will need. The building the shop is going into was built in 44. It's been rewired since then but needs to be again. The ole fuse box has to go lol.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

michaelpugh said:


> Sorry for stirring up a hornets nest


All you did is as a question. We are the ones that should be apologizing to you. I for one offer mine.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

No apologies necessary. I've read enough threads on here lol. Actually it was nice to read everyone's opinions.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK, then!*



michaelpugh said:


> I'm going with the 5hp. Like someone said I'd rather have too much than too little.


I would just add my opinion based on a different application. I ride motorcycles and have for 45 years. I have "souped up" Harleys that make over 100 HP and weigh from 700 to 900 lbs. Stock is around 60, so there is a 40 HP+ increase. I don't "race" them, but I am happy to leave someone behind at the light. You have to watch where, when and how you put that much HP to the ground, white or yellow lines, water, oil or gravel or sand on the road all come into play when twisting the throttle. 

It's the same with a table saw. I have watched inexperienced riders, get a new bike with a lot of HP get into trouble,and crash because they don't have the experience. So called crotch rockets and heavier bikes like Harleys are so different, you can't apply the same riding style to both. You don't have to use all that power, but it's there, if and when you "need" it. You almost never need it, but it's fun to have when you want it.

Just like when using a tablesaw, there are a few things that can go wrong, and they happen so fast you can get into trouble quickly. Wood is a wonderful yet strange substance to work with. Within it's structure there may be hidden tension that causes it to open or close after making a saw cut. This can bind it against the fence or close it behind a spinning blade, causing a kickback. The more power a saw has, the more violent the kickback will be. There are plenty of saw operators who have had a kickback including me, and I've had several, all were my own fault. 

There are 3 reasons a saw will kickback, the most common being the work comes off the fence just a bit, raises up and over the blade, the teeth dig in and rotates around at high speed and with lots of force/momentum. This is common with sheet goods like plywood or MDF, so you must always keep the work firmly against the fence. Stock feeders are slightly angled toward the fence to provide the "forward and in" forces simultaneously and are used on the higher HP saws in production shops. But even a 3 HP saw can really hurt you.

The second type of kickback is caused when the wood contracts or closes behind the blade pinching it, causing the wood to rise up slightly and forcefully come back toward the operator at high speed. This condition is not foreseen at the time and is totally unexpected.

Both types of kickback can be eliminated IF you use the riving knife or a splitter behind the blade. Older saws are often used without the blade guard which is held in place by the plate or splitter behind the blade. The newer saws have the riving knife built in which raises and lowers with the blade and doesn't require any action by the operator for it's use a *great safety* feature.

Either of the two new Grizzly saws will come with the riving knife, so that's great, don't remove it. I don't see a need for more than 3 HP on a 10" saw even at full depth of cut, but you must use the correct blade for ripping thicker stock. Heat and dust build up is your worst enemy when using a blade with too many teeth and gullets which can't carry the dust away fast enough, causing the blade to distort and bind causing the third type of kickback.

A 10" saw with 5 HP will just make this all happen with more force, so always choose your blades for the type of wood and cuts you are making. It is always worth the time it takes to switch out the blade. For panel work a blade with more teeth is just fine since man made materials do not close when the saw kerf enters the work, but you still have to maintain contact against the fence for the entire pass. A large panel will really hurt if it comes back at you..... DAMHIKT. :yes:

A 12" table saw with a 5 HP motor is a better combination in my opinion. The blade can make a deeper cuts up to 4 + inches, and that's when the additional power is needed. If you aren't "intimidated" by a 12" blade spinning 4000 RPMs at full height, then you will learn to respect it sooner or later. The type of work you do in your shop will determine which blade and power combination is best. Lots of ripping of hardwood for making furniture OR lots of cutting of panel stock for making cabinets is the main difference.

A large saw, with lots of power and the correct blade is best utilized in a production shop where the material is pretty much a constant and a stock feeder can be used, largely eliminating the kickback hazard. I personally know an experienced mill operator who was speared through the gut by a kickback and almost lost his life as a result. I don't know the exact circumstances which caused the accident but it can happen even to the best operators.

This whole discussion above is all about SAFETY and what I have learned over the many years of operating
several different size and power tablesaws, and is meant to inform all concerned. SAFETY is no accident, literally. :yes:


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## billrlogan (Feb 15, 2014)

*me too*

I had initially ordered the 1023 in a 5hp back in June of 2014 and they kept it on backorder for five months. I finally settled for the 3 hp and have been happy with it.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

It's here!!! Unfortunately it's going to be a few weeks before I get to turn it on. The shop has to rewired...


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

A 5hp doesn't give that much more than a 3hp. I've bogged a 5hp 3 phase many times. I've bogged my 3hp many times. 

What it will help....Resale. Almost all these washouts-lump a used coals would walk pins and needles to buy a 5hp over a 3hp on craigslist if it was the same price as a 3hp. As Clint Eastwood would say" For A Few Dollars More" I can have 5 ponies:yes:


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

The main difference I think is the 3hp is 110 and the 5hp is 220 - - I had the order filled out for the 5hp and ended up getting a 95 craftsman 3hp for $350 off CL.

Otherwise - - pukey green 5hp would be in the basement.

HJ

Cheap


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> The main difference I think is the 3hp is 110 and the 5hp is 220 - - I had the order filled out for the 5hp and ended up getting a 95 craftsman 3hp for $350 off CL.
> 
> Otherwise - - pukey green 5hp would be in the basement.
> 
> ...


Err... A 3hp motor would be drawing 30 amps at 110. Most 2 HP motors won't run on 110, let alone 3. That craftsman you have is probably rated for either it 'max' or 'developed' power. Its marketing jargon for " if you stall the saw, you'll get power equilivant to 3hp for about a half second before the circuit breaker pops". Craftsman and a few other manufacturers were ridiculous about rating things like that some time ago. In reality, your saw probably has a 1.5hp motor


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Any 5hp saw I've ever used you couldn't bog it down. It might throw you on your backside but would cut anything you could push. I have bogged down my 3hp unisaw though.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I can make Powermatic 72 cry with 8/4 hickory:smile:. Almost any saw with a grunt jamming wood into it can make it scream. It doesn't make it right, but it can be done:yes:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My 3 hp grizzly can be bogged down even with a thin kerf rip blade. I have never used a 5 hp saw.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

My Craftsman has a 3hp external motor belt driven - - probably not the original one. This one is stamped 3hp right on it. If you ceck the specs on the Grizzlys you'll see that the 3hp is 110 and the 5hp is 220.

HJ

Was going to get one of them til the CL popped up


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My 3 hp grizzly pulls 18 amps at 220 volts. That's 36 amps at 110.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> My 3 hp grizzly pulls 18 amps at 220 volts. That's 36 amps at 110.



Not that I doubt it....but I wonder what grizzly would say about that if you called. They claim that their 3hp motors draw 14 amps...

Has yours always drawn 18 amps??


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My saw was made in 2002. I have no way to check what it actually draws. 18 amps is stamped on the motor plate.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

honesttjohn said:


> My Craftsman has a 3hp external motor belt driven - - probably not the original one. This one is stamped 3hp right on it. If you ceck the specs on the Grizzlys you'll see that the 3hp is 110 and the 5hp is 220.
> 
> HJ
> 
> Was going to get one of them til the CL popped up


http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0690
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691

Both 3hp motors, both 220v. Again, that stamp on your motor is marketing BS. Check the amperage rating, id be willing to bet that its rated at 15 amps. 15 amps at 110 volts is 1650 watts of power, and with 1hp being equal to 745 watts, assuming 100% efficiency, you motor could only get 2hp. At the 60%ish efficiency most electric motors run at, you come out to 1.5hp. 

A 3hp motor would need 2235 watts to run, with 100% efficiency i may add. With those power requirements, you would need 20.5 amps to run at 110 under perfect, never gonna happen conditions. Real world conditions, with that 60% efficiency rating, you come out to roughly 30 amps. 

Long story short, never trust what the manufacturer says about horsepower. They cant be trusted 9 times for 10. Otherwise, all of our shops would need to be wired with 6 gauge wiring to run our shop vacs


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

If you wanted to run your shopvac and air compressor at the same you would have to hook straight up to the substation.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> If you wanted to run your shopvac and air compressor at the same you would have to hook straight up to the substation.


God forbid if you wanted to fire up the router!


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Epic,

You're right. Bothe the Grizzlys are 220's. I know I was going to get the 5hp and have to run a new circuit for it. That's one reason I jumped on the Craftsman. 110, and no rewire. Then I went and ordered a CNC machine with a spindle and found out that it has to be hooked to 220, so I got to run the new line anyway.

My Craftsman (it is an older one) is all the saw I'll need for a while, BUT that Griz 5hp is a sweet saw.

HJ

Not enough time and too much to do


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*why woiuld you even try...*



Steve Neul said:


> Any 5hp saw I've ever used you couldn't bog it down. It might throw you on your backside but would cut anything you could push. I have bogged down my 3hp unisaw though.


Why would you try to force feed any saw? If the motor or blade or material thickness or feed rate slows the saw down to the point of "bogging" then do things different for safety reasons and to "save" the equipment. The only thing you can do easily is back off on the feed rate or lower the blade and take only 1/2 the cut, however, that's a "trap" also. If the blade is not cutting the full thickness the chips can't escape since they are "trapped" in the kerf, they build up, generate heat and that's another problem. The blade can bind up seize and kickback.

I still say you don't need 5 HP for homeshop cabinet and furniture work, at least in my experience. Sheet stock certainly is fine with even a 1 HP saw. Maple or Oak in 6/4 or 8/4 will "test" some saws, but it's usually the wrong blade that is the issue, too many teeth.

My 12" 5 HP Powermatic with a 3 V belt drive will cut a bit over 4" thick stock, but I have never needed it, and I can't imagine what I would have to do to bog it down. I cut my thicker stock down on the bandsaw and then plane it to thickness. A kickback on a 5 HP saw just has 2 more horses kickin' than a 3 HP ....just sayin.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I couldn't agree more...I think it's a matter of my saws bigger than your saw complex. 

I've cut 8/4 hard maple with a sharp blade on my 1.75 hp...sure I slowed down a bit, but it cut fine. 

5 hp isn't needed in a hobby shop...


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

For $20 - bring it over and we'll set it up. I got lots of things that I don't really need, but sure are nice to have.

HJ

You'll either wish you had or glad you did


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Don't buy it just based on price. Think about the features/benefits of a bigger saw. 

5 hp requires a larger circuit. Can your panel handle that?? My inspector would only let me run a 40 amp panel without getting a new feed dropped and replacing the main panel...so to go from a 3-5 hp saw would cost 20 bucks for the saw, but about a grand in a new panel and supporting upgrades. And for what?? To cut 12/4 hickory quicker?? 

Motor repairs are more expensive down the road...

Kick backs are more violent....

The list goes on and on, doing a job with two large of a tool can be as dangerous and impractical as too small a tool. 

You wouldn't cut down 6 inch trees all day long with a 36 inch bar chainsaw, why cut 3/4 inch plywood and 4/4 hardwood with 5 hp??


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My grizzly is 3 hp. If you are trying to rip with a combo blade or dull blade it will bog down. If you have a sharp thin kerf rip blade it doesn't even slow down. Ryan your comparison with the chainsaw is stupid.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Why?? Too large a saw is not just related to one type. Do you dispute that a kick back will be more violent with a larger saw??


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Assuming the motor is correctly sized to the bar a 36 inch bar saw will smoke a 20 inch bar saw cutting 18 inch red oak. Now, I would rather carry a 20 inch bar saw a 1/2 mile into the woods.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

But that's the point...for large trees you need a large chainsaw 

For small trees, an 18 inch or smaller bar is fine. 


For sheet goods and 4/4 or similar stock 1.75-3 hp is more than adequate. 

If your doing work every day with 12/4 hardwood, then by all means buy a bigger saw. 

Let your needs dictate the saw rather than your dreams of more power.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Why?? Too large a saw is not just related to one type. Do you dispute that a kick back will be more violent with a larger saw??


Ryan I have a Husqvarna 353 20 inch bar chainsaw, a Husqvarna 327 XP 28 inch bar, and a Stihl farm boss 20 inch bar. Which saw do you think will cut through a 18 inch log the fastest? Hint the Stihl will be the slowest.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Your missing the point. Sure it will cut slower on a big tree, but there's more to cutting things than just speed. My point was about buying for your usual use, not the one off extraordinary uses.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Most of my use is cutting big stuff.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Well then fine...maybe you do need a 5 hp saw, but the majority of guys here are cutting 3/4 ply, or 5/4 hardwood at most 95% of the time. 

Again I've said, but the saw for your ordinary use....don't buy more or less than you need.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Most of my table saw cuts are 7/8 thick. My chainsaw cuts are usually the big stuff. Is it not ok to have more saw than needed. I would rather have more power than needed then not enough.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So let's just go back to table saws, (although I'm pretty confident we won't agree), which of the following statements do you dispute? 

1.that 5hp will kickback more violently than 3 hp 

2. A 5 hp motor will cost more to repair/replace should the need arise 

3. 5 hp needs a circuit that many shops do not already have, while 3 hp works on a 20 amp circuit, the most common 220 circuit. 

4. 5 hp is overkill for 3/4 ply and 5/4 hardwood. 

5. Speed isn't the most important thing in a hobby shop.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> So let's just go back to table saws, (although I'm pretty confident we won't agree), which of the following statements do you dispute?
> 
> 1.that 5hp will kickback more violently than 3 hp
> 
> ...





1 Will it hurt worse to hit your finger with a 10 pound hammer vs a 15 pound hammer?

2 That cost is minimal. How often to you replace your table saw motor anyway?

3 My table saw is hard wired in. It would have been just as easy to use a 30 amp circuit. 

4 Agree, but does it hurt anything? 

5 Agree.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

1. Yes...hitting your finger with a bigger hammer very well might cause more damage....shoot one foot with a pellet gun and the other with a .22....let me know which you'll choose the next time. 


2. Sure, it may not ever cost you more, but then again it might. Just be aware you're adding cost for no benefit. 

3. But again, many shops don't have a 30 amp circuit. For them a entirely new circuit was needed and therefore the cost is more than 20 bucks...sometimes substantially more.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> 1. Yes...hitting your finger with a bigger hammer very well might cause more damage....shoot one foot with a pellet gun and the other with a .22....let me know which you'll choose the next time.
> 
> 
> 2. Sure, it may not ever cost you more, but then again it might. Just be aware you're adding cost for no benefit.
> ...



You could cut your finger off with a 10 pound hammer. What more would a 15 pound hammer do? 

If the pellet gun is strong enough to shoot through your foot what more will a 22 do?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Your missing the point....more is not always better. I'm going to leave it here for future readers to make up their own minds. 

Have a great Tuesday man!!


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I looked up a grizzly replacement motor. The 5 hp cost $413, the 3 hp cost $368. The motors are probably interchangeable.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

hwebb,

Between you and me .......................... 5 is better

HJ

Less strain lasts longer


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

From reading the OP's posts, the electrical circuit requirements aren't an issue. He's running new circuits regardless so the added wire cost isn't much. 
For some the electrical demand would be a deal breaker due to having to run new lines/ breakers/ panel capacity. But he dosent have the lines in place now so he's running new ones anyhow. As far as I'm concerned, that aspect of this thread is settled, is it not? 

I agree the added power will cause worse, more powerful, kick backs, but I'm sure a 3hp motor is plenty strong enough to stick a board threw your gut. If this was a real issue, we'd all have our drill motors spinning our saw blades not multiple horse power motors. There's too much danger!

Having the extra power won't hurt. May not be ever needed, but you'll always have it. 

If your going to be using the saw as much as you seem to be, I think it'll prove to be better to have the power. If you to test cutting the same board, with the same blade and same conditions, with both saws, over a long period of time, the 5hp saw, in theory will last longer. 
The stronger motor won't be taxed as much as the 3hp. It simply will be easier for it. 

Our work trucks have 840 foot pounds of tourqe. Do we ever really need that much? No, the tires spin. The trucks we had 10 years ago do the same work we do now with way less power. And they all lasted just fine. 


If I was in your spot, I'd have already ordered the 5hp.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Wow this thread has gotten hilarious, so Ill add to it...


If I shoot him in the foot and he kicks the other guy in the balls and that guy flicks me in the ear, what kind of table saw should I buy?

If I cut my finger off on a TS, which HP will hurt more?

If Im eating dinner off my TS, which utensil is more likely to scratch the top, a fork or a spoon?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The 3 hp will definitely hurt less when you cut your finger off. Just use a plastic fork so no danger of scratching your top.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chamfer said:


> Wow this thread has gotten hilarious, so Ill add to it...
> 
> 
> If I shoot him in the foot and he kicks the other guy in the balls and that guy flicks me in the ear, what kind of table saw should I buy?
> ...


^ best reaction to an extremely petty argument


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Forget about it.........3 HP or 5 HP---------- Shucks youall are missing the point.........Go get a 12in with 7.5 HP............... Be done with it.......................................Then go cut some 1/4 in. plywood see if it bogs down on you.....................................


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

I ran into a similar quandary when I had to buy a motor for my Unisaw (I bought it less motor). I had a choice of 3 HP or 4. I went with the 3 HP because people on this forum said that's all I would need (and they were right so far) and I would have had to rip out and re-wire the whole circuit as it would have needed the next bigger wire size and a larger breaker.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Kansas Gary said:


> Forget about it.........3 HP or 5 HP---------- Shucks youall are missing the point.........Go get a 12in with 7.5 HP............... Be done with it.......................................Then go cut some 1/4 in. plywood see if it bogs down on you.....................................



That is almost too small. You better get the 14 inch 10 hp. Then cut 3/4 plywood.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Wow this thread has gotten hilarious, so Ill add to it... If I shoot him in the foot and he kicks the other guy in the balls and that guy flicks me in the ear, what kind of table saw should I buy? If I cut my finger off on a TS, which HP will hurt more? If Im eating dinner off my TS, which utensil is more likely to scratch the top, a fork or a spoon?


HEY! You forgot about the chainsaws!


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Finishing the rumpus room, man-cave with a fireplace and all. 5Hp x 12" saw = dream cuts.
Launched a 2x4 at Earth escape velocity. I was right there to catch it below the belt.
OK sonny, step aside next time.
Sure enough, launched another one a few days later. Missed me, right across the room, and speared the new wainscotting.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Kansas Gary said:


> Forget about it.........3 HP or 5 HP---------- Shucks youall are missing the point.........Go get a 12in with 7.5 HP............... Be done with it.......................................Then go cut some 1/4 in. plywood see if it bogs down on you.....................................



Deep breaths Gary, deep breaths.....


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

*Finishing the rumpus room, man-cave with a fireplace and all. 5Hp x 12" saw = dream cuts.
Launched a 2x4 at Earth escape velocity. I was right there to catch it below the belt.
OK sonny, step aside next time.
Sure enough, launched another one a few days later. Missed me, right across the room, and speared the new wainscotting.*






Ok you might have me beat with the funny. Something tells me its not a joke but Im still laughing with the way you describe it lol.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Yep, a real craftsman don't need no stinkin' 5hp tablesaw..........:thumbsup:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Yup, hard learned lesson. Could have been singing in the Geneva children's choir.
Don't stand behind a loaded cow.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What's your standing now?*



Robson Valley said:


> Yup, hard learned lesson. Could have been singing in the Geneva children's choir.
> Don't stand behind a loaded cow.


Are you two octavies higher?

I get you on the loaded cow. :yes:

Never stand in front of a loaded gun. :no:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Your missing the point....more is not always better. I'm going to leave it here for future readers to make up their own minds.
> 
> Have a great Tuesday man!!


You may as well give up, he will eventually find out that you can argue for the sake of arguing on a computer but arguing with 5 HP saw is scary, the saw always wins.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I really don't understand an argument saying not to get the 5hp if he can afford it and run the breaker and wire. Its a silly argument.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

wericha said:


> Yep, a real craftsman don't need no stinkin' 5hp tablesaw..........:thumbsup:


Need or want doesn't matter. Its whatever he wants to get :yes:.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Rebelwork said:


> Need or want doesn't matter. Its whatever he wants to get :yes:.


I completely agree............

My comment was directed at the individual who seems so adamant about the futility of buying it because "the tools don't make the craftsman". If there had only been that much difference between the 3hp and 5hp Powermatic you can bet your sweet arse I'd have bought the 5hp. I've been laughing at the silliness of the arguments on this thread for a while!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

You can use my name...I'm happy to stand buy my opinions.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

You said it right, Reb !!!!

HJ

Why did I get that particular one? ..... cause I can !


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

You know what brought this thread back up was me posting that I was excited that my saw was here. The picking of the saw is over. I just wanted to share my excitement...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's hilarious!*

POST no. 48:


michaelpugh said:


> I'm going with the 5hp. Like someone said I'd rather have too much than too little.




POST no. 112:


michaelpugh said:


> You know what brought this thread back up was me posting that I was excited that my saw was here. The picking of the saw is over. I just wanted to share my excitement...


This thread ran away on itself. :yes:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

michaelpugh said:


> You know what brought this thread back up was me posting that I was excited that my saw was here. The picking of the saw is over. I just wanted to share my excitement...


I hope you enjoy your new saw, much of the discussion did not relate specifically to you so apologize if I contributed to it going south.
However there are many inexperienced visitors to the forum and they deserve the benefit of the wisdom gained through years of experience that has been offered from all points of view.


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## michaelpugh (Dec 31, 2013)

So I've had the 5hp up and running for awhile now and haven't regretted it once. So glad I went with the 5hp. The price was a negotiable difference and the saw has been a pleasure to use. Would the 3hp have been enough? I'm sure it would've but I've never felt like the 5hp was too much saw and I know it'll never be too little.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

"My very first pass on my new 5 HP Powermatic 12" was a piece of crate wood, some sort knotty Pine I think. I said "I know how to do this, I ripped all kinds of stock before". But, I didn't have the splitter on, and the wood closed on the blade and it "exploded" in front and all around me......  Scared the crap out of me. "

That is the slight advantage of my crappy old crapman saw..When things close up it usually just stalls dead and trips the circuit.. I had to use a big ol crow bar to get a 2x off it once, but no kickback.. LOL


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

allpurpose said:


> "My very first pass on my new 5 HP Powermatic 12" was a piece of crate wood, some sort knotty Pine I think. I said "I know how to do this, I ripped all kinds of stock before". But, I didn't have the splitter on, and the wood closed on the blade and it "exploded" in front and all around me......  Scared the crap out of me. "


A couple of years ago I was ripping 3/4" strips off an 8' long piece of 1x6 Yellow Pine (I can't stand Pine but it's what I needed to use on this particular job). About 3' in on one cut everything started closing in on the blade and it was trying to throw the board back at me. You would think that a board only 3/4" thick and cutting 3/4" off that it wouldn't affect the cut that much but man it was doing its best to fight me. I refused to step aside or duck or let go but my Powermatic 3HP Model 66 wasn't giving up, either. I managed to hold the board down and hit the off button without losing the board or having anything flying across the shop.

The next day when I got to church I told our Associate Pastor that I would love to have had his saw, an old 120v Craftsman, for that particular cut. He said, "Why? My saw would have just squealed the belt and/or tripped the breaker." I told him that's exactly why I wish I had his saw for that cut!  

David


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