# Oak finish is not dark enough What now?



## Irene (Apr 9, 2012)

Hi, I am refinishing a large second hand oak dresser. I stripped and sanded. Last grit was 220. I used a pre staining wood conditioner. I then stained the drawers with a Minwax walnut stain. It did not darken much at all. So I tried ebony stain. Darker but not dark enough. So I went on line and found out how difficult it is to stain oak a very dark brown. What can I do now? I have 2 coats of oil based stain on it. Will ebony gel stain work? India ink? Something else? I really cannot bear trying to sand out the new stain. Please help.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I cannot say what your specific problem is, but it is not at all difficult to stain oak dark. I am sitting here looking at oak stained dark. It not at all hard to do. I did not use a pre-conditioner. I did this 12 to 15 years ago so do not remember any specifics.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I suspect*

That the conditioner probably has sealed the pores preventing any further absorption of additional stain.

The rule here is always make a sample board to test colors and finishes. Finishing is part Art and part Science/Chemistry. Often the results are not totally predictable.

There are finishing experts who will further advise you. :yes: bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Irene said:


> Hi, I am refinishing a large second hand oak dresser. I stripped and sanded. Last grit was 220. I used a pre staining wood conditioner. I then stained the drawers with a Minwax walnut stain. It did not darken much at all. So I tried ebony stain. Darker but not dark enough. So I went on line and found out how difficult it is to stain oak a very dark brown. What can I do now? I have 2 coats of oil based stain on it. Will ebony gel stain work? India ink? Something else? I really cannot bear trying to sand out the new stain. Please help.











If you can find an inconspicuous place that you haven't done anything to (including conditioner), try a small spot with the same stains and see if it comes up darker than the parts you treated.

If you can't find that inconspicuous spot to experiment with, find another one that you can sand off all the finish, and/or wipe off with lacquer thinner, and then try staining. It doesn't have to be large in area, just to determine if you have sealed the wood to be less penetrable to stain.














 







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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

A pre-stain conditioner should not be used on oak. Oak stains very evenly and all a pre-stain conditioner will do is partially seal the pores reducing the absorption of the stain making for a lighter color.

Also, what did you use to "strip" the prior finish? Was it a chemical paint stripper containing methylene chloride? That's the type of stripper that works the fastest and does the most complete job. Any residual finish left in the pores will also minimize the absorption of your stain.

I would recommend you use a chemical stripper again. The avoid the pre-stain conditioner and follow the directions on the stain's label.

Finally, re-sand by hand sanding in the direction of the grain. Sand to no higher grit than 180. Sanding beyond that grit will also lead to reduced stain penetration.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

I agree with Howie on this one, conditioners are meant for use on known blotching woods like pines or firs or or others. seldom is it a case where hardwoods need conditioner. 

The problem usually is that either this information is ignored by the user, which is stated on the can, 



""Apply Minwax Pre-Stain Wood Conditioner on *very soft or porous woods* to minimize
blotching or excess stain absorption caused by the natural characteristics of the wood.""​ 

Or they don't know the difference of what hardwoods or softwoods are. Not picking on anyone, it's just common but avoidable mistakes.

In fact, i think it should be made more prominent to the new users, so it can more readily be avoided, listing those woods most commonly in need of conditioning as compared to those that don't!

Are you getting this minwax???

If using a methylene chloride based stripper, it is also just as important to after-wash any residuals from the wood since they contain wax that is used to retard the evaporation of the chemicals, if you leave that wax on the wood, even with sanding, it will decrease the adhesion of the new coatings applied over it to whatever degree it exist and also may leave areas that dry slow due to the wax commonly reffered to as hot spots most commonly seen when using quick drying materials like lacquers. .

Best practice is to wash it down with lacquer thinner a couple of times with scotchbrite or steel wool followed with clean thinner and rags until no residues of any kind are accumulated on the rags.

The only time i use minwax is if the customer insist on it, or, for a previous job done with it. You have much more control when using a dye by itself first and then a pigment stain over the top of the dye. That is a standard factory procedure. 

As to what to do now, I also would either re-strip it or at the very least scrub and wash down with lacquer thinner, Re-sand with either 150 or 180 depending on the darkness desired [150 giving better darkness.] and again as mentioned test the color first before applying to the entire piece.


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## Irene (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks to all of you for your input. Tomorrow I will do a test sanding and re-stain. I will keep you posted. Howard,The stripper I used was Citristrip so no methylene chloride. I believe I got it all off of the drawers so I think I went wrong with the pre-stain conditioner. I am having trouble getting it all off of the body of the dresser even using odorless mineral spirits. It is quite a job! Chemmy, you are right. I need to read more carefully if I don't want to do a job twice! I


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Irene said:


> Thanks to all of you for your input. Tomorrow I will do a test sanding and re-stain. I will keep you posted. Howard,The stripper I used was Citristrip so no methylene chloride. I believe I got it all off of the drawers so I think I went wrong with the pre-stain conditioner. I am having trouble getting it all off of the body of the dresser even using odorless mineral spirits. It is quite a job! Chemmy, you are right. I need to read more carefully if I don't want to do a job twice! I


Hi Irene, part of the removal problem is because the stain contains a small amount of polyurethane clear coating which when dry, is what seals off the wood. So now you have to steel wool or scotchbrite the surface using a stronger solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner already mentioned, Once that is done and nothing is coming off on your solvent soaked rags and left to dry, then it will be clean enough to properly sand again ok? good luck and i hope you get it done correctly this time:yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> The only time i use minwax is if the customer insist on it, or, for a previous job done with it. You have much more control when using a dye by itself first and then a pigment stain over the top of the dye. That is a standard factory procedure.


Most DIY'ers are hobbyists that are in need of a simple finish schedule, that can be applied at a home shop with minimal experience. This statement infers that Minwax stains are inferior and are not recommended. I just don't agree with that. An experienced finisher may opt for other stains or procedures. 

Some may be impressed with an involved multi-step regimen, but IMO, that's not what they are looking for or are willing to take a chance with. Most finishing questions are based on wood prep, stain, and topcoat. 

To suggest that what is being used is not a "factory procedure" (whatever that may be) might be a bit much for a hobbyist. Hobbyists work in home garages primarily, not "factories", and are usually on a budget. We certainly don't want to discourage them from doing their own projects.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Actually the "homeowner" has an advantage over anyone doing finishing, TIME!!! They are not bound by time restraints as a person working as an employee or business owner with bills and overhead and all else, where if there weekly output is not sufficient enough to pay the bills, they no longer have a business or job.

If any time restraints exist at all it's of their own making, meaning they have personally waited till the last minute to decide to tackle a job and then in the process have run into problems and look for help. Even then, it is not a do or die situation. They may not be happy that it took them more time than thought or supposed, but it's not like it's the end of the world. 

Tell me of one homeowner doing a project of any kind who would work sixteen hour days for days on end just to be sure he would have a paycheck for his employees or himself come Friday or when ever? It's not like that for them, this is side work, a hobby, a do it yourself project a learning experience, something they would like to learn etc., why continue to lead them down the proverbial path of MW and make them a "1 can fan" of an inferior product line?

And yes, i do want to discourage people from doing the 1 can does it all mentality that is pushed on them through corporate America and then further by people like you, I not only think that minwax is a sh*t product, from use i know it is!! That goes for the rest of those types also. 

My son, who i kept out of the finishing trade seeing where it was going even decades ago, and who was using minwax when i came here about a year ago has adopted my techniques and finds it a joy to use as compared to MW. The colors stay on track, he needs no wood conditioners, he can come up with any color he desires instead of having to buy many cans of minwax or other related products such as conditioners to do so and still have it look better than that bullsh*t. 

There is not a person on here that i couldn't recommend better ways to produce a finish than MW. I'm not here to keep MW in business, they and the others could go belly up tomorrow and it would not have any affect on me or anyone else if they then looked for and could find even better replacements. And they CAN!! and in the long run CHEAPER! 

If you want to continue to "dumb-down" posters looking for the easy way out, be my guest, I will continue to at least give the options when somebody who has not already started their project with a crap product, the ability to at least try my methods ok? I personally believe that all posters are not foolish or dumb, but as smart as or even smarter than me about many things, the fact they seek help if and when problems arise is a fair sign of that, even better if the look to find answers before beginning. Ignorance is not stupidity, it is a lack of knowledge. 


The fact that you imply they are either not handy,smart,or good enough to use better materials or more complicated procedures, appears to me and i'm sure other who read this, that your insinuating just that. 

As to "Factory procedures" and your comment of "what ever that may be" tells me a lot about your own lack of personal experience if you really don't know common factory methods or procedures used to produce a finish.

As to budgets, how many of those who post here and elsewhere and end up unintentionally screwing up a piece and have to strip it and re sand it and start all over like Irene are poster here, have to now go over there budget [if on one] from using this crap? Is stripper cheaper than a can of Sh*twax, is lacquer thinner or other solvents or increased cost on sandpaper or other, helping them stay within there "budget"?

Frankly when you can't offer more or better advice than these products to the posters, it makes me wonder if you really care about them learning anything past big box and corporate marketed crap. What would you recommend if they didn't exist? That would be interesting to know Mr. Book??

This business of finishing has survived in it's present state for more than a century without the need for minwax. It is not needed and in most instance more detrimental than former ways of finishing and in unskilled hands more likely to cause problems rather than fix them. 

Better to teach correctly from the start, than leave a novice to their own inexperience and devices.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> Tell me of one homeowner doing a project of any kind who would work sixteen hour days for days on end just to be sure he would have a paycheck for his employees or himself come Friday or when ever? It's not like that for them, this is side work, a hobby, a do it yourself project a learning experience, something they would like to learn etc., why continue to lead them down the proverbial path of MW and make them a "1 can fan" of an inferior product line?


Being an "inferior product line" is just your opinion, and should be stated as such. Bashing a product could be because you had bad luck with it, or didn't use it as directed. What's proper would be to say you don't use a specific product, but prefer something else. You can't save everyone from a simple "one can" finish. 



chemmy said:


> And yes, i do want to discourage people from doing the 1 can does it all mentality that is pushed on them through corporate America and then further by people like you, I not only think that minwax is a sh*t product, from use i know it is!! That goes for the rest of those types also.


"People like me". You seem to have a problem with anyone that doesn't accept you for what you think you represent. Somewhere you made a statement of wanting to be the "Google Guru of finishing". You might see yourself differently than the way others see you. You can make suggestions as to how you would finish a project, and whether someone wants to go that route would be up to them. To make them think that they are completely wrong with a simple finish regimen, or a product, can take away their desire to attempt doing the work themselves.



chemmy said:


> If you want to continue to "dumb-down" posters looking for the easy way out, be my guest, I will continue to at least give the options when somebody who has not already started their project with a crap product, the ability to at least try my methods ok?


"Dumb down"...your personal attacks only goes to prove that you need to do that in order to get one's confidence. I don't think I dumb down anyone. Offering suggestions that can be understood and afforded by a hobbyist, is foremost. 



chemmy said:


> As to "Factory procedures" and your comment of "what ever that may be" tells me a lot about your own lack of personal experience if you really don't know common factory methods or procedures used to produce a finish.


You have no comprehension of what my experience is, and commenting that I don't know what factory methods are is another personal attack. I may be more familiar than you for all you know. Your posts ranting about all the years of finish experience, and background again seems designed to make your suggestions "the only way", or to gain trust that your suggestions override all others. I really don't feel the need to boast about my experience. I can offer a suggestion, and it can be taken or not. I don't have to brow beat someone to believe how correct the suggestion is.



chemmy said:


> Frankly when you can't offer more advice than these products to the posters it makes me wonder if you really care about them learning anything past big box and corporate marketed crap.


Here it is again with personal attacks and lack of respect. What I do in my own work may be different that how I advise. My methods could be more involved than yours, as you have no idea. But in answering a question I make a determination of what may be the simplest, and most successful direction to take. If it's a "one can", it's a "one can".










 







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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> The stripper I used was Citristrip so no methylene chloride

That stripper is one of the least effective. It must be allowed to remain on the surface a long time and, generally, at least two applications are required to remove existing finishes.

I would suggest to go through the stripping process again using a stripper containing methylene chloride. That will give you a much better chance of ending up with an even overall coloring of you stain.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

"Being an "inferior product line" is just your opinion, and should be stated as such. Bashing a product could be because you had bad luck with it, or didn't use it as directed. What's proper would be to say you don't use a specific product, but prefer something else. You can't save everyone from a simple "one can" finish.

Chemmy:

No, "opinions" are what you give, mine are based on chemistry fact and personal use as compared with other more substantial professional products.

I don't "bash" a product simply because i don't like it, i bash it because it is "inferior", and that's what makes it unlikeable. I don't have application problems with it, because i understand what it is, i was using oil soluble dyes long before "mudwax" existed or any of the others, they can be useful as a single component dye and if used, that's how they should stay, leaving one to manipulate their properties as one sees fit. Just as pigment colors should be.

Even with that acceptability they are more prone to fading than water dyes and only a little better than alcohol dyes in the same respect. This really can be seen when using lighter colors of all 3. 

Ask yourself this - if they were really any good, then why haven't the furniture factories incorporated their use? If anyone in the business of producing a good looking finish that would reduce time in doing so they of all people would have be buying it by the trainload, since they are always looking to cut down expensive labor in such processes as well as all others. The truth is they are much more problematic than any factory applied finishing procedures. There crap and that's all there is to it.

Factories need sytems that work and work well and are able to produce the same results time after time with as little fluctuations in end product results as possible. They don't have time to be screwing around with hit or miss results! Your attitude on the other-hand seems to be the homeowner is less capable of this than a person with no training who goes to work for a factory and is taught from scratch those applications used. My belief is that if someone off the street looking for work can be trained to do such, then so can any homeowner who knows nothing about it can also, in other words, I think more highly of people and their capabilities as humans to learn - if taught- just about anything they set their minds to achieve. 

There may be some that can't and really may not have any mechanical aptitude for such, but even then they already know this and are not the ones to venture into such things as discussed here.

I'm about to prove this fact with another poster that i will return to after wasting my time answering your comments. Which I'm not about to let go unanswered. your either going to get off my case or wish you had never started this or other things in the first place.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

And the winner is........you 
Cabinet man and chemmy you both are good at what you do. I believe you both have good finishing skills that you both give to people here on WWT. You need to join forces and combine your experiences together as one. Nobody wrong or right for that matter. People can learn from you both. 
So let's shake hands and share. 
Just my 2 pennies.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

"People like me". You seem to have a problem with anyone that doesn't accept you for what you think you represent. Somewhere you made a statement of wanting to be the "Google Guru of finishing". You might see yourself differently than the way others see you. You can make suggestions as to how you would finish a project, and whether someone wants to go that route would be up to them. To make them think that they are completely wrong with a simple finish regimen, or a product, can take away their desire to attempt doing the work themselves.

Chemmy:

LOL, no what i said was people have called me that and that i was not impressed by such from those who are just learning, the only time as i stated that i felt good about who i am or what i do is when my peers compliment my work. Those who know how much time and effort first hand goes into such work. That is a good and rewarding feeling, i don't expect to get that here. Nor am i looking for it. If it happens it happens. 

As to simple regimens, if a few extra steps or even more will result in an overall better looking final product that the poster can be proud of, i don't think that even makes a difference.

Who here would not want to produce a better finish if told or shown or taught how to do so, you? 

People tend to go the simple routes only because there is no one or nowhere that they can go to learn different better methods than what is readily offered to them by big business and their incessant advertising and promoting of the "inferior" products. 

To continue to do so here or anywhere is a lack of responsability on our part if we continue to do so. We, who can be of the most help if we so desire, can share information that will put an end to mudwax and the rest. Those are my intentions, i could care less if yours are different, that is your problem not mine.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> I'm about to prove this fact with another poster that i will return to after wasting my time answering your comments. Which I'm not about to let go unanswered. your either going to get off my case or wish you had never started this or other things in the first place.


What you may or may not prove is that someone somewhere will try. That's a universal phenomenon. What you are proving is that you'll say anything to get your point across, even if it's inappropriate. You can say whatever you please, and whatever you say is the proof is still just opinion. Call it chemistry or science, if you want. The proof is in the pudding...so to speak. If someone uses Minwax and they are pleased with the finish...there's your science and chemistry. 

I'm not on your case. You just go to no ends to make your case. Is threatening part of your persona? We're all adults, no need to act childish. You just respond to posts the way you want and so will I. 










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

"Dumb down"...your personal attacks only goes to prove that you need to do that in order to get one's confidence. I don't think I dumb down anyone. Offering suggestions that can be understood and afforded by a hobbyist, is foremost. 

Chemmy:

you have yet to feel a personal attack from me c'man, but you will definitely know it when it comes, in that case it will be in a PM, not on a post. 

That said, if by chance someone has trouble understanding me they are free to ask questions and for clarification of what i mean as is often the case either here or directly off line.

As to cost or affordability, i can only say that the extras cost is not large to obtain the necessary things to perform better work, as of now i have one person while writing today that has no problem spending what i had told her would be necessary to do so to do such. She will be the test for whether or not my way turns out a better looking end product than your recommendations, and if the extra cost is worth it.

For those who really cannot afford to spend the necessary money to do so, i understand, if money is an object i would not want them to do so. I wouldn't do it myself if that was the case. but, if i knew that if i could get better results by using other materials and techniques, i would "save" up the money to do just that at a later time, just as i am saving now for a new darkfield/lightfeild/ microscope. It will most likely take me another 4-6 months, but i will do it. With those here if they really want the same they may or could do the same. It's not like any project has to be done in a given time c'man, that is just the wish of those who are impatient, not a necessity.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

You have no comprehension of what my experience is, and commenting that I don't know what factory methods are is another personal attack. I may be more familiar than you for all you know. Your posts ranting about all the years of finish experience, and background again seems designed to make your suggestions "the only way", or to gain trust that your suggestions override all others. I really don't feel the need to boast about my experience. I can offer a suggestion, and it can be taken or not. I don't have to brow beat someone to believe how correct the suggestion is.

Chemmy:

C'man you started this not me, out of the blue once again you started critiquing my post, the words you posed were directed at me and what i had stated whatever it may have been it was completely off topic and directed at my words!! and even after warning you to back off you continued and even now do so. So either back the F**K off, and don't besmirch my answers and answer what the poster is asking about or i guarantee you it will continue!!

I don't want to hear things like lacquer thinner is not appropriate for testing if a finish is some-other that can also be affected by it, the information given was about an obvious lacquer finish, if i had thought it was other or proved to be other i would have then asked what was found and made appropriate suggestions on removal or other, i don't need your comments or unhelpful remarks making it sound like my recommendations are not trustworthy and having to reply with long explanations that in this case really were of no immediate importance. 
stick with giving other options, and dont have anything to do with what i write, i'm not the one looking for info the poster is, direct your answers to what is being asked not my replies!! I'm not here to be critiqued by you or anyone else. 

If i strart a post then you can post your opinions or disagreements ok? This takes way to much time from what is supposed to be helpful info. if you don't agrree with me in the future PM me i will gladly reply ok?


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Dominick said:


> And the winner is........you
> Cabinet man and chemmy you both are good at what you do. I believe you both have good finishing skills that you both give to people here on WWT. You need to join forces and combine your experiences together as one. Nobody wrong or right for that matter. People can learn from you both.
> So let's shake hands and share.
> Just my 2 pennies.


I guess this was thrown out the window.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

You have no comprehension of what my experience is, and commenting that I don't know what factory methods are is another personal attack. I may be more familiar than you for all you know. Your posts ranting about all the years of finish experience, and background again seems designed to make your suggestions "the only way", or to gain trust that your suggestions override all others. I really don't feel the need to boast about my experience. I can offer a suggestion, and it can be taken or not. I don't have to brow beat someone to believe how correct the suggestion is.


Chemmy:

See what i mean C'man? you continue to ignore the "fact" that what started this was your commenting on my post those things that were directed to me personally. You did the same thing with steve, with you acting in the manner you accuse me of.

You get this wild hair up your A**, for whatever reason about some-body's answer and feel the need to correct it in an inappropriate way, by besmirching them or their comments or suggestions, do you even re-read what you say at times? wood and things has told me the same as Dominic also and others. And if needs be i will continue to point this out if you continue to do so. I've had it with you and your comments on my answers and i wont put up with it any more without retaliation. So either stop it now or consider it a continuing battle that you wont win!!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C'man:

"Here it is again with personal attacks and lack of respect. What I do in my own work may be different that how I advise. My methods could be more involved than yours, as you have no idea. But in answering a question I make a determination of what may be the simplest, and most successful direction to take. If it's a "one can", it's a "one can".

Chemmy:

I wil respect you when you stop commenting on what i write in my answers and stick to the questions being asked on any post, stay out of my sh*t C'man, i won't tell you again! Stay on track, leave me alone!!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Irene...I apologize for this sidetrack discussion. 

chemmy...you mentioned a PM...so, I accommodated you.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Dominick said:


> And the winner is........you
> Cabinet man and chemmy you both are good at what you do. I believe you both have good finishing skills that you both give to people here on WWT. You need to join forces and combine your experiences together as one. Nobody wrong or right for that matter. People can learn from you both.
> So let's shake hands and share.
> Just my 2 pennies.


 
Sorry Dom, but this has got to stop and i intend to see that it is.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

I hate to get involved. But I like both of you. I don't think either of you are wrong. It's not a competition...it's only woodworking. It's suppose to be fun. That's why we do this. 
When you can help someone. That's all that matters. Weather anyone agrees or disagrees.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

I think we just need to let these guys figure it out on their own. They are both good guys with a great deal of wondeful information to share. They are adults. They will figure it out.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> I think we just need to let these guys figure it out on their own. They are both good guys with a great deal of wondeful information to share. They are adults. They will figure it out.


Let's hope so. Lol


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