# Hardwood bowl gouge--



## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

Hi ---
made my own wood lathe in the African bush 
from scrap steel
made all my tools for turning some great hardwoods-

but --as with all beginners ---my bowl gouge profile /shape 
tends to DIG IN --as the Lenny Kravitz lyrics suggest-
broke my wrist on too many attempts to hollow out a teak bowl
--slow speed ---home forged spring steel tool s ok --
but the bowl gouge --although I have ground on a jig to 55 deg 
correct shape from internet fotos --etc 
these tools work well on outside turning beads /roughing /coves etc 
--no probs

----BUT -HOLLOWING OUT---STILL digs in --with catastrophic results --!
QUESTION -- is there a tool shape /type --that WON,T--- dig in when the hollow gets really deep --say 4 inches ---on SEVEN INCH diam African ironwood log section ?
appreciate any FOTOS ---of alternate shapes /profiles etc
thanku ---
regards -----ACACIA


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Are you talking about hollowing a vessel through a small hole or hollowing out the inside of a bowl. For a bowl the 55 degree bevel works fine as long as you can rub the bevel. If your bowl shape has somewhat straight sides transitioning into a flat bottom you will likely get a catch when you go through the transition area because you won't be able to rub the bevel. 
Bowls that have a gentle curve from the lip all the way to the bottom you can usually rub the bevel with this tool and not get a catch. 
To do steep sided bowls with flat bottoms many people grind their gouge with about 70 degree front bevel. This will allow you to do the bottom with a bevel rubbing cut however you will still have a problem in that transition area. Since either tool would be scraping in that area you can still do it with light cuts. Hold the handle up higher than the cutting edge and it should scrape without catching.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

*Gouge digs in ---*

Thankyou so much for the info --saculnhoj

really appreciate --

its a open bowl --steepsides -- into rounded bottom

very hard wood ---scary --broke my wrist 

all the 55 deg gouges --I made from internet fotos -failed 
dug in --keep shattering bowls
but --best is for me to SHOW YOU DOZENS OF FOTOS I TOOK 
of my tools/ lathe set up / bowl shape /size etc -
I believe in big clear fotos ---

but ---- er ---- OH dear ---- this nightmare fotobucket URL 
CODE -- click --here /there --is a night mare ---- way over my head 
found this horror on many gunsmith black powder forums last year 

easier for me to send many detailed fotos to a STD email address 
ie SIMPLE PAPERCLIP ICON -- click on -- ATTACH - send 
easy -- my ---email below--

[email protected]

then you can spot my problem --with close up macro shots of the 
fluted bevel tools I home made --from old files --spring blades 

----45 deg --55 deg -- 60 deg --65 deg ---
still have a shattered wrist ---
now I have lost my nerve ---
see fotos & advise how to correct my amateur grinding method?

thankyou --- again -- A


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Don't think I'd be comfortable using tools made from old files, personally.
The steel is plenty hard enough, but I'd expect it to be too brittle to be safe as a woodturning tool.

You can attach uploaded photos to your comments here if you want. I'd like to see some for sure, and I think other forum users here would be interested also.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

Apologies 9 thousandfeet --
omitted to mention --a Virginia master gunsmith --taught me how to temper old files by 
re-heating -(after oil quenching)--to 350 Celsius ---on a lead float --

removes the brittle quality of a bastard file --which then can be safely used as a chisel /tool for 
turning ---

I am determined to show all those foto I took great trouble over --
but -- 
have no idea how to post them --on this forums complex system 

rather send them to a email ---simpler ---less fuss 
apologies --still trying to master PC jargon /logic ---at 65

I have many fotos of local hardwood objects I turned from varieties of Acacia / Zimbabwe teak 
lead wood /iron wood ----/pod mahogany 
_*** Removed by Mod illegal in USA***_ 
don,t dare attempt bowl gouges since my wrist is in plaster ---its the wood that shatters /not the tool 
--that's affected --
or it breaks the wooden handle when digging in ---nerve wracking --

must be a universal non dig in tool somewhere?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

How long are your tools? It sounds like they are way too short. My favorite bowl gouges are about 25 inches long. My longest bowl gouge is 36 inches long.












Here are some pictures of grinds. Most wood turners prefer a swept back grind also known as a fingernail grind. First two pictures are fingernails grinds. The third is a flat grind suitable for the bottom of a bowl.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You also might consider carbide tools. Catchless tools don't exist, but carbide tools are about as close as it gets.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

If you heat a file to 425 degrees for 1/2 hour per 1/4" of thickness it will take the brittleness out of it and still leave it hard enough to hold an edge.
You don't need a long handle on a bowl gouge. If you do your technique needs improving. Ideally you have as little tool as possible hanging over the tool rest so you wouldn't need the leverage of a long handle. I do use slightly longer handles but that's because I like to hold the tool on my hip and use my body to control the movement of the tool. Feel free to send photos to my e-mail [email protected]


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My 36 inch long tool is a bit overkill, but I like my 24 inch tools.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

wow ----so much expert help ! --very grateful
many many thanks to all == GREAT FOTOS!!
OK -- WILL post my fotos on that email I got 

some of my gouges are VERY SIMILAR ---LONG 14 INCH HI- CARBON STEEL shafts 
even LONGER hardwood handles ----17 -20 inches 
overall length --25 inches --- 22 inches -- 18 inches for spindle gouges 
27 inches for roughing gouge ---- 24 inches long scrapers --round nose --flat etc

ok --- extremely pleased with all the feedback --I knew I would get great advice here 
now to find all the close -ups 
ok --later 
Acacia


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

Please note --my crude home forged /ground tools are no work of art ---really ugly --
but functional /cuts external coves /beads /tapers /parting tool ---etc all cut hard ebony /leadwood ok ---but hollowing deep bowl -----freaky ---really terrifying

but I am amazed at the round carbide discs that bolt on with countersunk Allen bolts
onto a too bar tip 
first time ever to see this --must be the answer to my woes 
no nasty shoulder to grab /snag --dig ---will attempt to copy 

ok fotos are with saculnhoj ,s e mail ----
really appreciate such amazing response----cannot go wrong now !


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

*How to sharpen those carbide inserts?*



hwebb99 said:


> You also might consider carbide tools. Catchless tools don't exist, but carbide tools are about as close as it gets.
> 
> View attachment 179873
> 
> ...


Hi---I have ordered a few carbide tips --like your fotos
--wondering --when they eventually go blunt ---
---how are they sharpened ? tTungsten carbide drill tip for concrete-

simply wears my grindstone down fast--I there a special grinder wheel to re-face those carbide tips?

many thanks ----there is hope !
ACACIA


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

*Forget about fotobucket and upload from your computer*



ACACIA said:


> .... my bowl gouge profile /shape
> tends to DIG IN ... but the bowl gouge --although I have ground on a jig to 55 deg work well on outside .... BUT -HOLLOWING OUT---STILL digs in ..... QUESTION -- is there a tool shape /type --that WON,T--- dig in when the hollow gets really deep .... 4 inches on SEVEN INCH diam .....


For a vessel of that shape and using a gouge with a 55° bevel, yo are losing bevel contact, the bevel angle needs to be more blunt. Try 70° or 75°. Also sweep the corners of the gouge back slightly so that they do not grab the wood. You may also be having a problem with your technique if you are injuring your wrist, perhaps extending the tool too far over the tool rest. Get the tool rest as close as possible to the work.

If you are having trouble with figuring out how to link to your pictures on fotobucket, why don't you just upload the pictures directly from your computer to this forum? It isn't any more difficult than loading them from your computer to fotobucket.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

ACACIA said:


> Apologies 9 thousandfeet --
> omitted to mention --a Virginia master gunsmith --taught me how to temper old files by
> re-heating -(after oil quenching)--to 350 Celsius ---on a lead float --
> 
> ...


*QFT*

"Removed by mod" you say?

... and, you've turned a blind eye to what you see?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ACACIA said:


> Hi---I have ordered a few carbide tips --like your fotos --wondering --when they eventually go blunt --- ---how are they sharpened ? tTungsten carbide drill tip for concrete- simply wears my grindstone down fast--I there a special grinder wheel to re-face those carbide tips? many thanks ----there is hope ! ACACIA


 You really aren't supposed to sharpen them. They are marketed as disposable, but you can rub them face down on a diamond stone and extend their life a little bit.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

ok ---GOT IT--
THANKYOU very much Hwebb--
so those inserts are meant to last---& replace when blunt ?

ok --I will send you a detailed analysis ---on how these carbide tips handle African hardwood with silica crystals--

A Friend of mine--in Queensland-says some Japanese hard birch wood he had cut by a Sawmill---also blunts any saws rapidly-- ---the sawmill charged him 3 times normal rate --to cut some planks !!
---all due to silica --!---they say ---
(Zambian railway TEAK --- found near Victoria Falls ,Livingstone --called Mkusi---
has the same characteristics ---ruins massive saw mill blades 
foto I sent of a local Zululand tree --Umtiba ---blunts a commercial gouge /skew in seconds --

discarded them --thinking low carbon cheapo Chinese junk ---
but still blunted my sharpest glass hard bastard file ----in fact a new chainsaw blade stood no chance -
----I intend to do more research on silica in certain hardwoods --must be silica in North American 
timber??
fascinating --
regards Acacia


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

*Got fotos attached*

Thanku Bill B---
you were right on ----man 

got those fotos onto this site --surprisingly easy -- CLICKED on "manage attachments-"---after that --no more drama
that photobucket / URL--/ coded--insert-nightmare has vaporised!

appreciate your help 
ACACIA


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Don't you have any easier wood to turn? Unless that stuff is beautiful or all I had I would toss it on the burn pile.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

ACACIA said:


> Thanku Bill B---
> you were right on ----man
> 
> got those fotos onto this site --surprisingly easy -- CLICKED on "manage attachments-"---after that --no more drama
> ...


I am very impressed with your home -built lathe and tools. You have used a considerable amount of ingenuity.

I see a couple problems with your home -built bowl gouge. The must significant is the way that it is sharpened which appears that you probably held it with the flute pointing up and rotated the nose across the grindstone. The second issue is the very broad and shallow U shape. The result of the shape and sharpening is that the tool is more like a scraper or a spindle gouge with a blunt grind and depending upon how it is being presented to the spinning wood, it could be a very dangerous tool to use.

If you could show a couple other pictures of the bowl gouge, it would help us to visualize its shape better. A side view would be most helpful and perhaps an angled perspective view.

You can make a bowl gouge fairly easily if you have some iron or steel water pipe.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> I am very impressed with your home -built lathe and tools.


I've been looking forward to seeing the photos, it sounds fascinating, but I don't know where they are.
Is there a link somewhere in this thread that I'm missing?


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> I've been looking forward to seeing the photos, it sounds fascinating, but I don't know where they are.
> Is there a link somewhere in this thread that I'm missing?


Yes, under his name, click on My Photos and it will take you to his gallery.


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## Hwood (Oct 21, 2011)

There is a learning curve on each tool and over time you will find what you can and cant do with them. Nothing wrong with making your own tools, many of us here have ground a screw driver or chisel down and tried it. But a good bowl gouge is a nice thing to have and it to will catch if given the chance. You may have to make a tool rest that supports your tools as close as you can to the wood. Tool rest should be as solid as you can make it. Flex in a tool rest will cause you problems. Fresh cut tree with clean grain and no knots is going to be easier to cut and learn on than dry wood, and perhaps something a bit softer. The way the wood is mounted and how you are cutting into it will make a difference. Cutting down into the end grain can be a challenge. Good luck to ya


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Is this the tool you are using as a bowl gouge?


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

*Gouging end grain on zulu mziti ---wet*



Hwood said:


> There is a learning curve on each tool and over time you will find what you can and cant do with them. Nothing wrong with making your own tools, many of us here have ground a screw driver or chisel down and tried it. But a good bowl gouge is a nice thing to have and it to will catch if given the chance. You may have to make a tool rest that supports your tools as close as you can to the wood. Tool rest should be as solid as you can make it. Flex in a tool rest will cause you problems. Fresh cut tree with clean grain and no knots is going to be easier to cut and learn on than dry wood, and perhaps something a bit softer. The way the wood is mounted and how you are cutting into it will make a difference. Cutting down into the end grain can be a challenge. Good luck to ya


Grateful Hwood --
you are spot on --my tool rest is not too solid /welded one inch roundbar to a 1/4 inch thick 2 x 8 inch piece of flatbar mild steel 

the overhang vibrates --scary the whole set up is too flexible

I AM STRUGGLING to cut /gouge a hollow in the end grain of a piece 
of strange wood here 
blunts all 12 sharpest tools files /commcial scrapers /skews 
--and the chainsaw blunts fast --
have cuy 1/2 inch deep hollow --- IN 14 HRS constant re-sharpening 
--
tried every angle 45 /60 /70 /deg 
all methods failed 
I DO NOT have access to a carbide DISC insert yet ---maybe its the ticket
---9 still trying to locate a reliable South African SUPPLIER b4 I fly home --to Zambia--
many woods up north have silica crystals ---local tribes soon tell you what u can or cannot cut ( they use axe blades made from forged truck leaf /vanadium spring blades ( bush forge -charcoal )

I will post fotos of many stubborn wood /tree species when I get back --

See fotos of typical Central African axes that cut enormous 200 ft mahogany & teak trees ----many now endangered ---scarce
(the logging Chinese are wiping out tropical forests - some secies of Ebony --gone --almost extinct







( posted fotos of African axes --
but now I do not see them ---something I missed?)


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

*Nothing -- cuts this wood*



hwebb99 said:


> Is this the tool you are using as a bowl gouge?
> 
> View attachment 182449


 No ---I did use several commercial spindle gouges ---all failed--
ALL blunted in 20 seconds or less 

the Skew file I made -----was used only externally --& in foto
(even the new chain saw blade--is smooth as babies bottom
in a few minutes 
Someone in AUSTRALIA mentioned Japanese birch wood 
having silica crystals in the heartwood --the sawmill that cut planks for the fella --charged him 3 times the std rate --
this time I COULD NOT DIG IN -- no matter how amateur/clumsy my method-s became---confounds logic

I am not alone ---best scrap the idea 
( but not until I try the carbide magic wand ?)
somebody should do some serious research on silca crystals in exotic hardwoods ---someone has the sad truth ?)


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> .... click on My Photos and it will take you to his gallery.


 Got it.
Many thanks.
Wow!


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I think your biggest problem is improper use of tools. Your whole banjo ( that is the part that sits in the lathe bed and holds the tool rest ) might be too weak if it is flexing. Here is a picture of the one from my homemade lathe. The part that sits on the bed is 2-1/2 inch tubing with 3/8 wall thickness. The part that holds the tool rest post is also 2-1/2.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

hwebb99 said:


> I think your biggest problem is improper use of tools. Your whole banjo ( that is the part that sits in the lathe bed and holds the tool rest ) might be too weak if it is flexing. Here is a picture of the one from my homemade lathe. The part that sits on the bed is 2-1/2 inch tubing with 3/8 wall thickness. The part that holds the tool rest post is also 2-1/2.
> 
> View attachment 182641


oh WOW !
Now that's what I call a solid banjo! now I see how vibrations can be 
dealt with--
that's so easy to make ---big sturdy stuff ---

thankyou for the inspirational ideas --

( those hardwood logs weigh around 15 -20 KILOS when bolted onto my home made chuck --its been trued up on a lathe --
but the heavy wood --even though I use an adze to hand carve the 
eccentric --crooked outer bark /& layers --still is a monster vibrator 
shaker on low RPM --
-- MY huge spring rough gouge works wonders on cutting the rough log chunk to a quick balance---

its the hardness of the face of this wood --really magnificent grain 
softwoods are for pussies -----tired of them 

got to master the gouging with carbide tools 

but now --will re-inforce this whole box channel frame
install sturdier legs ---to deal with centrifugal forces --yep -the frame 
is too springy ---got to beef it up --lotsa scrap angle iron here--

luckily it has huge shaft / bearings-& sturdy pulleys /belts
I have the v belt drives slightly slack ---now 
so when DIG IN surprises me ---it squeals ----stop-
kill switch is closer as well--

what a learning curve --many thanks---
one day --will send you a chunk of ebony ---if its not endangered!
regards A


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

I was right -when I suspectedhigh SILICA content of this wood I failed to turn ----
chainsaw blunted in a few minutes -- all gouged failed ---

so reseach on teak and African Mahogany ---has proved beyond all doubt 
high silica content --approx. 1 .2 --2 %--- is a blade /tool killer!!

go to " the WOOD Database----TEAK
and "UNDERSTANDING AFRICAN HARDWOODS--MAHOGANY SPECIES VARIATION "

most Central African hardwoods damage sawblades /cutting tools ---fact 
( its NOT my HOME -MADE bowl gouges / scrapers etc --- or tool /grinding/sharpening methods)
---not perfect 
but silica is the culprit ----website evidence is overwhelming !
--so ----- these woods are also toxic ---irritants---
---but still very attractive grain ------so --carbide to the rescue ---?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't know how carbide would hold up to that wood. They claim it last 20 times longer than HSS, but that is being generous. 10 times would be more like it.


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## ACACIA (Aug 21, 2015)

Thankyou --- hwebb99---- carbide tips----if they are even 10 times more durable--sound better than 
std HSS----- 
but worth trying out ---
Just that odd TEAK OR mahogany bowl is stubborn ---the rest of the hardwoods seem to cut 
without problem ----at least now I have identified the silica dudes ---
this one is spalted slightly ----as foto shows --
amazed --you can feel the shock on the tool when turning slowly ---external rough cut 
--the "roughing gouge" shudders ----only when transition from light soft exterior wood
-to the "spalted ? dark chocolate-streaks /lines ---
ie smooth cutting ---then bang! --rough ---then smooth ---then rough --& so on -alternate layers 
you strike with the gouge razor sharp ---has a pronounced bump! --like a mis-firing auto-weird!

not a smooth un-interrupted cut across--outside-- like most woods--
just have to be careful --& wait for the tungsten insert --so I can bolt it onto a heavy mild steel shaft 
and very long robust handle ---
close up fotos show lovely grain texture inside the stubborn heartwood --will 
let you know what transpires--somebody has obviously succeeded--turning this wood--

sawmill managers must have cardiac problems --when they view their large expensive-blunted saw teeth!----so says the various websites --even Brazilian rosewood --a favourite classy hardwood export used in guitar fretboards ---has silica embedded --& many teak species around the world--
Malaysia /South America ---tree takes up excess silica & other insoluble minerals in the surrounding soil
---so I,d better re-inforce my flimsy DIY lathe /tools--
regards Acacia


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