# HELP!!! Does ANY Stain Work Well On PINE???



## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi there, Everyone:

Can anyone offer a suggestion on what stain to use for Pine? (I think home depot calls it whitewood pine board, and I believe you can see it here).

I have tried on some samples using minwax prestain followed by watco Danish Oil and it is INCREDIBLY blotchy. 

One one sample I used TWO coats of prestain followed by the Danish Oil. that helped REDUCE the blotchiness somewhat, but it also reduced the effectiveness of the Danish Oil.

Second Question: 

Will using a "natural" color stain still make it blotchy? 

Will I need to use something truly clear to avoid blotchiness?

Thanks in advance.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Conifer lumbers are just like that. If you apply a sanding sealer or a coat of shellac first, sand then apply stain (spraying is best) it will be very uniform. 

There are "pre-stain" conditioners available but I've never had much luck with em

Good luck!

Edit:

ps. You figure that plane out yet?


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## GoIrish (Jan 29, 2012)

I had some lunch with prestain treatments but for the most part I now start with shellac as my sealer for everything. Use a dilute 1lb cut and lightly sand, apply second coat, and lightly sand. Hardly shows but it seals the wood pretty well in my experience.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi there, Jean:

Thanks so much for the tip. I will try with the shellac (and possibly the Sanding Sealer). I will have to look into what types of stains I can spray.

And yes, have been using the plane of a few things. It's taking me a while, but that is only because I am a slow learner. That's what's bugging me is that I put a lot of work into this project (because it is MOSTLY a learning project), and I don't want to see all that work go to waste because of stain problems.

Thanks again, and thanks again for the plane.

P.S. I sent you a P/M a week or two back to check in on you during Isaac. I figured you were probably pretty busy.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

@ GoIrish:

thanks for the explanation:



> Use a dilute 1lb cut and lightly sand, apply second coat, and lightly sand. Hardly shows but it seals the wood pretty well in my experience.


Just to clarify, do you mean do that BEFORE staining? 

Or do you mean use two coats of shellac and then DON'T stain at all?

And if you DO stain, what type of stain do you suggest? 

I normally like Watco Danish Oil in the Dark Walnut or Black Walnut tints, but I think maybe something a little bit warmer would look nicer...


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> Hi there, Everyone:
> 
> Can anyone offer a suggestion on what stain to use for Pine? (I think home depot calls it whitewood pine board, and I believe you can see it here).
> 
> ...


Why use a stain if you are considering using something truly clear?

I would imagine you could use you Danish oil without stain. I have not used Danish oil myself but have used linseed oil. 

Staining has not normally been a problem on pine for me, I wipe it on quick and even and wipe it off.

Some advocate tinting your varnish 10% tint and use that for your first coat. 

Hope that helps

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Bonka (Mar 24, 2011)

*Pre-Stain Conditioner*

Google "Hide Glue Sizing." I have used that method many, many times with great results. The end grain even takes the stain/dye the same as long grain.
Go to Charles Neil's web site and get a bottle of his blotch contol. I used it on poplar to make a poplar chest look like cherry.
I have never had acceptable results with Minwax wood conditioner.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Your blotchy spots are caused by the soft parts of the wood absorbing more of the pigment than the harder spots. When you use a wood conditioner it is absorbed more by the soft parts of the wood the same way the stain would and hardens giving the surface a more uniform density. I suspect you didn't allow the wood conditioner to dry enough before applying stain. The conditioner has to dry before it becomes effective. I don't use store bought conditioners just because its another product to have to keep. The whole idea is to lightly seal the wood so I normally just thin what ever finish I'm going to topcoat with because its something I have on hand. You just have to be careful not to overseal it to where the stain won't take. You can even overseal the wood with store bought conditioners so you need to make samples to get a formula worked out and write it down somewhere.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Danish oil is not a stain, it's a finish. Pre-stain conditioners won't work with it like it will with a true stain. The wood is western sugar pine and in the #2 boards you get at HD and other big boxes is not dried to furniture grade standards. The lower grades can have a lot of resin which can make staining and finishing a challenge. You need to completely sand the boards to remove tooling marks and mill scale, then use a pre-stain conditioner followed shortly by stain. You may have to accept some blotching due to grade and the nature of the wood.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Wow. Thanks everyone. Lots of good suggestions to look at.

I am going to read up on the different ones here and look at the sites that Bonka suggested.

*@ Steve Neul*



> I suspect you didn't allow the wood conditioner to dry enough before applying stain. The conditioner has to dry before it becomes effective.


I think you are probably right. I tried following the directions on the can of prestain. I left it on about 15 minutes, as they said to, and then wiped it off and then applied the Danish Oil. Was that too short of a time?

One thing I noticed when applying the prestain is that some areas of the wood absorbed the prestain very quickly (and the surface was "dry" within a minute), while other areas absorbed the prestain a lot slower (having prestain "pool" on the surface). 

I figured the "dry" areas needed more prestain so I used my brush to move some of it from the areas where it had pooled to the dry areas. Was that a mistake?

*@ DaveTTC*



> Why use a stain if you are considering using something truly clear?


Ideally, I would like to stain it to match most of the other walnut-colored woods we have there.

I would only use something clear as a last resort, if I can't get a stain to go on without being blotchy.

*@ Hammer1*



> You need to completely sand the boards to remove tooling marks and mill scale, then use a pre-stain conditioner followed shortly by stain.


Thanks for the reminder. I think that IN STORE home depot refers to the boards as pine shelving - although I don't see that reference on their web site (I think - although I am not 100% sure, since I bought them a little while back).

I have sanded them progressively from 80 to 220 on the face and edges, and to 400 on the ends. Should that be enough?



> Danish oil is not a stain, it's a finish.


So is Danish Oil (and the other oils like BLO and Teak and Tung Oils) - are they BAD options for Pine?

Should I try the Shellac and Danish Oil route? or Should I try the prestain and a TRUE stain route? (Mose people say to avoid the minwax products, so now I am not sure what to do.)


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

@ Bonka:



> Google "Hide Glue Sizing." I have used that method many, many times with great results. The end grain even takes the stain/dye the same as long grain.


I think this is the link you were referring to:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/shopping/TechInfo.aspx?p=47291

Huh... interesting. That might be something to look into, but I don't even know if I can find hide glue around here.


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## Bill White 2 (Jun 23, 2012)

I use DE-WAXED shellac. Zinsser Seal Coat. The pre-stain conditioners are just a highly thinned sealer, and take way too long to dry.
Bill


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## dbales (Jun 21, 2011)

I've always known danish oil to be a finish, not a stain. I'm not sure if you're looking to use the finish to color the wood or not. If you're looking for a walnut look on the whitewood boards, I'd suggest using a pre-stain conditioner to close up those really open pores, followed by a walnut colored stain. Then after that all dries, you could finish with danish oil if that's a finish you like. 

I just wasn't understanding why you were using a pre-stain before a finish.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

*@ dbales*



> I'm not sure if you're looking to use the finish to color the wood or not... I just wasn't understanding why you were using a pre-stain before a finish.


Well, mostly because i am not sure what I am doing... :huh:

I like the look of the Danish Oil on most woods that I have tried it on. And for most things I have NOT needed to prestain.

However, it doesn't seem to work well on this pine board.

Yes, I was hoping to color the wood with the Danish Oil.

Oddly enough, my wife grabbed a bunch of cheap pine boards and stained with Minwax oil based stain WITHOUT prestaining first, and they came out looking pretty decent... :confused1:

Since I have some of that stain left over, I might try using the prestain on my test pieces, letting it cure for 48 hours, and then try to stain (the prestain directions say to stain within 5 hours of prestaining)

this could turn into a LONG day... :wallbash:


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## Bonka (Mar 24, 2011)

*Hide Glue*

Wood4Brains;
I mix about once ounce of dry hide glue in 1 quart of hot water and stir it around until is disolves. this can take a little while. It has to be about 120-130*F when you apply it. Let it dry overnight and sand the nubs and your good to go. It works on end grain on hard woods and keeps the stain/dye the same as the long grain. It'll keep in the Fridge for a week or so.


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## dbales (Jun 21, 2011)

Well I've used a minwax red mahogany on a few whitewood boards that I used on a metal/wood tv stand before and this was way before I knew what I was doing. They came out pretty good. I never put a finish on them because I was very new to wood and had no clue that I needed to and they eventually lightened in color. I need to redo that tv stand sometime soon.

If the boards you're using are pretty light in color, the stain should take pretty well from what I've seen. Try samples to see what you can do about uniformity.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Roger That*



Hammer1 said:


> Danish oil is not a stain, it's a finish. Pre-stain conditioners won't work with it like it will with a true stain. The wood is western sugar pine and in the #2 boards you get at HD and other big boxes is not dried to furniture grade standards. *The lower grades can have a lot of resin which can make staining and finishing a challenge.* You need to completely sand the boards to remove tooling marks and mill scale, then use a pre-stain conditioner followed shortly by stain. You may have to accept some blotching due to grade and the nature of the wood.


Back in the day, when I started wwing around 1960, I used Pine because that's what I saw at the lumber yard. I knew nothing then, and have learned that Pine is a pistol to work with. Yea, it cuts easily and planes nicely and sand readily, but that where it ends for me. The knots if any, are an issue, the grain either contains sap and then none, and no matter what I did it looked bad. Paint cured most of the issues, but the knots bled through.
If I were you I would graduate to Poplar for basic projects. It paints and stains much better and still cuts and sands just fine, even better than Pine.

I eventually found that uneven staining issues could be cured by applying the stain with a spray gun. Just blow some more on where it was light and feather it out. :yes: bill


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Wood4Brains said:


> Wow. Thanks everyone. Lots of good suggestions to look at.
> 
> I am going to read up on the different ones here and look at the sites that Bonka suggested.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with that specific product so I couldn't really argue with the directions on the can for drying time. I see on the internet that it allows you to put a second coat of conditioner on after 15 minutes but before 2 hours. It appears to me that it takes the conditioner a minimum of 2 hours to dry. The site I went to said nothing about drying time to stain. Another site, Popular Woodworking Magazine says to let Minwax conditioner dry overnight before applying stain. Most of the time when I have blotchiness after using a conditioner is when I get in a hurry and rush it so this may be the problem. I doubt if you are having trouble with cold weather but sometimes you need to increase the drying time when the weather is off. Cold or damp weather can greatly increase the drying time on finishing products. The drying times listed on instructions are based on warm dry weather. 

As far as applying the conditioner, I would apply it and wait a couple of minutes and wipe the excess off with a rag like you would with a stain. I think if you start moving it around you could overseal some spots.

If you are trying to match walnut I think a better choice of wood would help you. If you could find a source for alder I believe you would be much happier. Its not normally any more expensive than oak and has the acrostic of being able to be finished to look like other woods. Its mostly used as a substitute for cherry but looks a lot like walnut with walnut stain on it. 

Danish oil finish would work as well as any oil finish on pine. Depending on brand, it is made from tung oil or a polymerized linseed oil with pigment added for the color. You wouldn't be helping yourself then by discontinuing the Danish oil to use tung oil or linseed oil because its much the same thing. If you can achieve the look you want with the Danish oil I would suggest using a film coating like polyurethane. 

As far as Minwax products. I have issues with their stain but I would be comfortable using other products. Someone pointed out that Minwax stains were bad to fade over time so it got me to looking at furniture I built 10-15 years ago using Minwax stains. Living with the furniture day by day I never noticed it fading but when I compared it to freshly stained wood, about 50% of the color was gone and older pieces stained with Sherwin Williams stains were barely lighter.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> @ DaveTTC
> 
> Ideally, I would like to stain it to match most of the other walnut-colored woods we have there.
> 
> I would only use something clear as a last resort, if I can't get a stain to go on without being blotchy.


I have stained pine with walnut successfully. I have found wiping the stain on and removing the excess almost with a single pass using a cloth has been successful. The pine in Australia may be different to the one you are using there. I would also suggest the tint method mentioned earlier. You can use the tint in subsequent coats to get desired depth of colour. Don't mind the Aussie spelling 

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Huey (Sep 2, 2012)

Hi all 
I've stained pine heaps of times in the past, the process I've stuck to is the same as your sealers / finishers waiting between coates (drying time) give the stain time dry and use a oil based (single urathain like caborts - berger) / water based finish. best of luck

Huey


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## CharlieC (Sep 18, 2012)

I work alot with alder and pine in the residential furniture/cabinet industry in large volume. We finish our products on a flat line automated spray machine with spray no wipe stains and a self sealing conversion varnish....1.5 minutes of ambient air...5 minutes of laminar air @105 degrees...1.5 minutes of jet air with about 5 seconds of medium wave length infa red lamps at the very end of the oven...coming out the end at around 135 degrees from the infa red...tack free...vertically rack them for about 10 minutes to allow the surface temp to cool...rough the sealer (400 g sponge pads) and run thru again. All the oven is for is to speed up the curing process to speed up production. With the spray no wipe stains we do not have the time or luxury of fading in the blotchy spots. Proper white wood prep (sanding) is the key to a good quality finish every time...no matter what species of wood your working with. Take the time to propery open the grain evenly on your surface prep with no special conditioners needed.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for the note, CharlieC:



> Proper white wood prep (sanding) is the key to a good quality finish every time...no matter what species of wood your working with.


Can I ask you which grit you sand the pine / alder to before the pieces are stained? Especially the end grain? Is it sanded to a different grit than the face / side grain?

Thanks in advance.


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## CharlieC (Sep 18, 2012)

We pay a little more attention to the end grain but use the same grit. With whitewood prep... start with 180 and work up to 220...sanding between top coats we use a 400 grit with a light sponge backing paying close attention not to burn thru sharp edges.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

I like to sand end grain one grit higher than the face.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

@ rayking49:



> I like to sand end grain one grit higher than the face.


yes, I have heard that too.

I tried it on my last project, PLUS I put on an extra coat (or two) of pre-stain, and now the stain is too LIGHT on the end grain.

I could live with that... Except there are a few places where AFTER I sanded but BEFORE I stained, somehow I must have dinged / scratched the end grain, because after I stained I discovered a few scratches where the stain went on REALLY DARK.

I don't understand how it happened. I was SO METICULOUS trying to get the end grain sanded smooth, and then somehow I scratched it in about three or four places.

:wallbash:


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## GoIrish (Jan 29, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> @ GoIrish:
> 
> thanks for the explanation:
> 
> ...


Before staining as a sealer. Although I did a nice blanket chest with Garnet shellac and it evened out nicely after 6 or 7 coats. It was a bit blotch to start.


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## goodwood (Dec 15, 2012)

After carefully sanding, I use Minwax conditioner and allow it to dry the specified amount of time. Then I like to use Cabot oil stains because they are easier to work than Minwax. i get the best results applying stain with a thin cotton rag.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Guys this isn't a REALLY old thread but I believe the OP has moved on.


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## esbee (Apr 3, 2017)

*stain on white pine*

I make custom designed saddle stands. I used to have that problem but found out if I put a lot of stain on the wood and move it very fast with the grain because if it stays on in one place it will become blotchy. If I think it has blotched I will put lots more stain on the area and continue working. after I have covered the whole area, I then use lots of paper towels to remove excess. I use minwax. It is what works for me.


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## Bonka (Mar 24, 2011)

I use both methods with great results.


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