# Is woodworking all about tools?



## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

I find most threads here relate to the use of tools in some way or the other. It is either purchasing a new tool, using it safely, or correcting some anomaly in the functioning of a tool. Now most of us own a multitude of power tools and want to buy more. I am myself obsessed with tools and will probably run out of space in my workshop very soon.

So I was wondering, is woodworking just about the tools? In the old days, a woodworker relied mainly on a few hand tools like handsaws, planes, chisels, and axes. I have seen old carpenters here in India working only with such hand tools and creating wonderful furniture. I was mainly attracted to woodworking by watching such marvellous and skilful crafting.

I think woodworking could be more fulfilling if we can focus more on the skills rather than on the power tools, and would be interested in knowing your thoughts.:1eye:

Thanks!


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I totally agree, but I like buying tools. The one that dies with the most tools wins. Right?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

It is an individual things. If you get more enjoyment working with only unpowered tools then by all means do so. 

Much depends upon why you are doing the woodworking. Many do so to make a living. They cannot afford to use only hand tools. Many (I am one) do so to make a product that they want. I am not in it for the artistry, I am in it to make a product that I need/want/will use.

I want my product to look nice, but that is not the end all.

George


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Most of us live in times of instant gratification in the land of plenty. 
You want to be a woodworker just pull out your plastic, fill up your shop with tools, watch a couple you tube videos and go to work.
Want to be a biker, use the plastic again, buy a Harley, some leather and a box full of Snap-on Tools so you can ride down to the local bar.
Some of us are old enough to remember other times, times that had some value worth remembering.

This page shows some of the tools my father had to build because he could not buy them even if he had the money to.
http://benchnotes.com/farm/farm.html


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> I totally agree, but I like buying tools. The one that dies with the most tools wins. Right?


Yabut, he who dies with the most tools is still dead. :thumbsup:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Having tools is one thing, using them is another.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

The people who claim that good work is dependant on having the most, best quality tools are generally the ones least qualified to use said tools. It's never about the tools, its about how they're used. 

Now, having more tools is certainly fun, but it isn't necessary. Now if you'll excuse me I need to run to grizzly...


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

epicfail48 said:


> Now, having more tools is certainly fun, but it isn't necessary. Now if you'll excuse me I need to run to grizzly...


That's not fair. You live too close! 

As for me, I have acquired my tools over the years, with a lot of them coming in the last 5 years after I retired. I can build just about anything I feel like is in my skill level, or maybe just above.

One of the plus things about having the right tool available is you are able to get the job done and move on. Planing 100 bd ft of lumber by hand wouldn't be much fun for me. But thirty minutes with the planer and the job is done and ready for the next task.

That's my take on it. YMMV :yes:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> The people who claim that good work is dependant on having the most, best quality tools are generally the ones least qualified to use said tools. It's never about the tools, its about how they're used.
> 
> Now, having more tools is certainly fun, but it isn't necessary. Now if you'll excuse me I need to run to grizzly...


Not completely true. I'd like to see you build great piece using a folding handsaw, a hammer, a couple wooden planes, and a few screw drivers to use as chisels.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> The people who claim that good work is dependant on having the most, best quality tools are generally the ones least qualified to use said tools. It's never about the tools, its about how they're used.
> 
> Now, having more tools is certainly fun, but it isn't necessary. Now if you'll excuse me I need to run to grizzly...


It is easy to blame the tool, a lot of very nice work has been done with very basic tools in the hands of a true craftsman.


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Not completely true. I'd like to see you build great piece using a folding handsaw, a hammer, a couple wooden planes, and a few screw drivers to use as chisels.


Don't forget that this 'electricity' thing is fairly new. There have been lots and lots of really great pieces of furniture made with hand tools - like anything made before 1850 or so. Maybe they had some water or steam powered tools, but for the most part it was hand tools.

Yes, of course, it took forever to make that stuff. But, it can, and has, been done.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

FrankC said:


> Most of us live in times of instant gratification in the land of plenty.
> You want to be a woodworker just pull out your plastic, fill up your shop with tools, watch a couple you tube videos and go to work.
> Want to be a biker, use the plastic again, buy a Harley, some leather and a box full of Snap-on Tools so you can ride down to the local bar.
> Some of us are old enough to remember other times, times that had some value worth remembering.
> ...


Wow, Frank, your dad was one talented fellow, that is fantastic.

Over my career, I bought the tools I needed as I needed them and as I could afford them. Starting off the tools I had weren't top of the line but they helped get the job done. I kinda think having tools that made me work harder, made me a better wood worker in the long run, the better tools just made it easier and a little better results. 

Later on in my career I didn't have time to spend on using the older hand tools like I wanted to use, I had deadlines it seemed almost all the time. This called for tools that would make up some of the time the older tools couldn't. If I found a tool that would do a faster or better job and I could afford it, I would buy it.

I have time now to learn to use the older tools like I have wanted to for a long time. I find it fun learning another way to build something without the power tools. I still use some power tools but I don't do large projects now. I have sold some of my larger tools but still have several I will sell, I just don't need them anymore.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm sure that I could do a lot of my wood carving with a CNC Router. But I won't. I did the professor thing for more than 30 years. You learn stuff with research tools that don't belong to you. You teach stuff to students who come and go over the years like the wind.

Wood carvings are objects of substance. Something to look at when the day comes to an end. Some of them are utility, like dishes, some are whimsical like a 24" caterpillar carved from a cedar fence post. Aside from some initial roughouts, everything else is done with hand tools. Saws & spokeshaves, draw knives and adzes. Many of my crooked knives had past lives as farrier's hoof-trimming knives.

I can see, every day, what I have or have not accomplished. I sleep well.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

pweller said:


> Don't forget that this 'electricity' thing is fairly new. There have been lots and lots of really great pieces of furniture made with hand tools - like anything made before 1850 or so. Maybe they had some water or steam powered tools, but for the most part it was hand tools.
> 
> Yes, of course, it took forever to make that stuff. But, it can, and has, been done.


Not 1850. The first electric powered tools did not come into being until 1895. It was many years after that before they were common.

George


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

Power tools speed thing up so I have time to ride my Harley down to the bar.
Oh wait a minute sold the Harley , now ride Triumph and biking while boozing was never my scene.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Not completely true. I'd like to see you build great piece using a folding handsaw, a hammer, a couple wooden planes, and a few screw drivers to use as chisels.





FrankC said:


> It is easy to blame the tool, a lot of very nice work has been done with very basic tools in the hands of a true craftsman.





pweller said:


> Don't forget that this 'electricity' thing is fairly new. There have been lots and lots of really great pieces of furniture made with hand tools - like anything made before 1850 or so. Maybe they had some water or steam powered tools, but for the most part it was hand tools.
> 
> Yes, of course, it took forever to make that stuff. But, it can, and has, been done.


Well, between frankc's answer and what pweller said, I think my counterpoint has been pretty well stated. The quality of work you produce is in no way dependant on the tools you have. Sure, fancy tools can make a job easier, but they aren't necessary. 

I could make a pretty nice table or set of chairs or a jewelry box using "a folding handsaw, a hammer, a couple wooden planes, and a few screw drivers to use as chisels". The claims that you can only do good work with a $5k powermatic table saw made in 1964 in the US and a ,1930's bellsaw planer and yadda yadda yadda are a load of crap. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it:

It's not the size of the tool collection, its what you do with what you got


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Do you have a table saw or do you prefer to rip 8 foot long 8/4 boards with a handsaw?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't think so....*

For the well heeled who can afford the best of tools, I think there are 2 aspects, having the best tools and making the best of them according to their ability. Unlike a new suit which can make an ordinary looking man a real striking individual, the best tools can not make a clumsy, uninspired woodworker into a "Master".

In my case, I have very few high end hand tools, Japanese gouges and Robert Sorby mortising chisels. My high end power tools are a MinMax 13" jointer/planer and an 18" bandsaw. All the rest are middle of the road Craftsman 14" bandsaws and 12" table saws and a 6" jointer most of which were purchased "On Sale" or used.

My interests from as long as I can remember, were about having the best tools I could afford. Some were hand me downs or gifts for birthdays. I started out with a Heavy duty 125 RPM Stanley 1/2" drill I saw in the Hardware store window when I was in 4th grade. It was so heavy I had to use a wagon to carry it the 8 blocks to my home. I asked the store owner to put it on "lay away" so I could make weekly payments and eventually paid it off. It's all history from there.....

Now, I can make just about any woodworking project I choose, but I stay away from kitchen cabinets BTDT, or large raised panel doors, my buddy makes those. I prefer smaller cabinets, chests, boxes, Mission style furniture and find satisfaction in the wood, it's color and grain, making the joinery, and applying a finish that is smooth and enhances the project. Having the right power tool for the operation saves time for sure, but often requires a bit of setup to get there and I don't mind that as opposed to doing it by hand. 

So, yes it's about the tools, the material ...wood usually and the process, whether by hand or power.


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

I always thought it would be good to have a thread kind of like 'show us your shop', but instead do a 'show us your shop and your project'. In other words, show what you made and the tools you used to make it.

I have no doubt there will be some people with some impressive projects made with mediocre tools. I've found my mediocre tools will run pretty accurately if they are set up properly.


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## TwelveFoot (Dec 30, 2015)

hwebb99 said:


> Do you have a table saw or do you prefer to rip 8 foot long 8/4 boards with a handsaw?


I feel like this is getting off track. The point is that you could achieve the same result whether you used a hand saw, a hand-circular saw you got for $5 at a yardsale, or a brand new Unisaw. Yes, it's going to go quicker with power tools. But in the end the quality of the product is determined by the craftsman. You could give some people $20k of tools and they couldn't make squat, or you could give a resourceful person $200 worth and they could build a masterpiece.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You could sell your truck and ride a horse to work. I'll keep my tools and truck.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all the beautiful thoughts on this topic.

I personally find working with hand tools much more satisfying than doing the same with a power tool. Of course I am into woodworking as a hobby and not professionally, so I can appreciate why many people like to use big and expensive power tools (such as table saw, band saw, planer, etc.) to speed up their tasks and increase their work volume.

For me woodworking is more of an art. Hand-sawing and hand-planing a big piece into a desired shape can give much more satisfaction (and can also burn a lot of calories fast) when compared to passing the same piece through a table saw or a band saw and a planer. In the latter case, the only 'feeling' one gets is what may be experienced by a lumber mill worker. 

I also feel that my skill as a woodworker will improve if I am in a direct contact with the wood, which is only possible with a hand tool. 

Furthermore, the quiet sound of a saw cutting the wood, or of a hand plane shaving a board is very therapeutic, and reminds me why I took up this hobby in the first place. On the other hand, the loud snarl of a power tool always makes one jittery and apprehensive!


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

hwebb99 said:


> You could sell your truck and ride a horse to work. I'll keep my tools and truck.


I would do that if horse riding was my hobby!


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Interesting post! I was thinking about this very topic while at the scroll saw yesterday. Isn't it ironic the direction each of our hobby has taken us? The fascination with tools, wood, & reasons why we entered into this amazing hobby? Myself, I drove OTR for many years. Was raised in the trucking business, & on a small farm. But my Father was NO CARPENTER! I had no interest in anything but trucks. And still do, I am just no longer able to drive. 15+ years ago, when I started getting into this, it started out as just a stress reliever when I had home time off the road. With a few hand tools, a RAS, & a circular saw that I had to read books to learn to use. As time went on, more customized firewood was made, I bought used tools as the projects required. I didn't invest much money because the bug hadn't bit me yet. I acquired my first scroll saw, & that's when the bug bit me, & HARD!! I wore out a single speed Craftsman teaching myself the saw. Then we bought a Hitachi CW-40. What a machine! I still have it, & use it. We own 5 scroll saws, a table saw, planer, sanders, 2 lathes, RAS, & most everything else I'll need. It's taken years to put it all together, & not to many of our tools are brand name, or brand new, but they do what I need them to do. I don't do much heavy work anymore, due to physical limitations, most of my shop time is spent at the scroll saw, or the lathe. I take great pride in being self taught. Some laugh at me about it. That's ok, too. My FB page sawdust haven shows our work. Thanks to my granddaughter. The main idea, I believe, is to enjoy what it is you're creating, with what you have. Several folks ask me how an old truck driver got into woodworking? Well, to be honest, I don't much care for TV, & I sit in a truck seat enough years, my mind, hands, & eyes were always busy. I'm not one to sit around. Woodworking does all that for me. My apologies for the ramble. Enjoy the day, gentlemen.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> You could sell your truck and ride a horse to work. I'll keep my tools and truck.


Nobody's arguing that power tools are faster mate. The topic of discussion is whether or not fancy tools lead to a better result


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

In some ways woodworking isn't about tools, it's completing a task the most efficient way possible. A person can accumulate every possible tool to do a job and spend all their time fetching that "Just right tool" or they can have enough tools and make the tools they have do more than it was intended. I had a customer that needed a piece of molding made for their house that was only about 4" long. They had a difficult time finding someone that could even do it. One shop wanted to make a shaper knife to cut the profile however that came with a lot of work and a price to match. Another shop could make it with several router bits that would come close but not match exactly. Then they called me and while I have a shaper and router bits I choose to make the molding with wood carving chisels. It only cost them an hours labor and it matched exactly.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I judge others by the weight of their equipment.....


Like this, I will always win the belt sander by weight category.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I took up woodworking to learn patience, i.e. slow the hell down and do it right. While I am getting better (finishing, drying turning blanks, etc.), using all hand tools would be so slow that I'd get frustrated and give up. Plus, having to save up for the power tools is helping alleviate my instant gratification obsession. 

Plus I'm kind of a power tool junky. If I had the space I'd have a bunch of heavy s*** like Darcy.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I judge others by the weight of their equipment.....
> 
> 
> Like this, I will always win the belt sander by weight category.


I wonder why porter cable quit making the locomotive? It was the best belt sander I ever used.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> I wonder why porter cable quit making the locomotive? It was the best belt sander I ever used.


I totally agree, I had three of them but have only one now, it is about as good as it gets.


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

Woodworking is IMO more than using the right tool for the right application. Consider also the design, material, form/function, and an individuals knowledge/experience to build any project. Using tools that are sharp, clean, & in good working condition are required to produce a quality end result. Be safe.


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## abetrman (Mar 18, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Having tools is one thing, using them is another.


Best sentence ever...

I have a garage full of tools that I definitely don't make use of enough to justify to money spent on them. Now, that's not because I don't want to, it's more of a time thing. Maintaining priorities in the upcoming year should help with that.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> I wonder why porter cable quit making the locomotive? It was the best belt sander I ever used.


Probably because they were getting expensive to make and they really don't wear out. How were they suppose to sell more.:laughing:


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I judge others by the weight of their equipment.....
> 
> 
> Like this, I will always win the belt sander by weight category.


Jimminy cricket, that thing looks old enough to still run off steam


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Mine is built a little different, this isn't mine but one just like it.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I'd love to get my hand on one of those. I just need to find one at a garage sale that the guy doesn't know what he has.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

epicfail48 said:


> Jimminy cricket, that thing looks old enough to still run off steam


It's one of the last gear drive models PC made. It is early 50's and weighs 26 pounds.

Purrs like a kitten though.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Mort said:


> I'd love to get my hand on one of those. I just need to find one at a garage sale that the guy doesn't know what he has.


Here ya go Mort:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTER-CABL...450269?hash=item1ea9d6df5d:g:BLwAAOSwX~dWk5gl


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

BigJim said:


> Here ya go Mort:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTER-CABL...450269?hash=item1ea9d6df5d:g:BLwAAOSwX~dWk5gl


He said from a guy that didn't know what it was though. :laughing:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> He said from a guy that didn't know what it was though. :laughing:


Kinda over looked that little fact. LOL


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> It's one of the last gear drive models PC made. It is early 50's and weighs 26 pounds.
> 
> Purrs like a kitten though.


Whoa whoa whoa, it weighs how much? 

Ive said it before and ill say it again, do you own any tools that dont need a forklift to move...


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## schnitz (Sep 5, 2009)

epicfail48 said:


> Whoa whoa whoa, it weighs how much? Ive said it before and ill say it again, do you own any tools that dont need a forklift to move...



Well, technically he did mention that the sander is 26 lbs, so I'd say "yes".... LOL!


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

BigJim said:


> Here ya go Mort: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTER-CABLE-A3-3-x-24-Belt-Sander-Porter-Cable-504-/131698450269?hash=item1ea9d6df5d:g:BLwAAOSwX~dWk5gl


That thing would be rad in a belt sander race.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

A enjoy having quality tools as much as anyone, but what makes a handheld beltsander worth $650? That is nearly as much as I paid for my Performax 16-32, and 65 times more than a paid for my newer Porter cable belt sander.


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## Shop_Rat (Dec 22, 2015)

Very interesting thread. I have power tools for maybe a different reason. I no longer possess the strength to run a handsaw for long. I cannot swing a hammer all day like I used to. I cannot turn a bit and brace through multiple holes. I cannot run a piece of sandpaper over a large area long enough to smooth the wood. And I cannot hold heavy tools steady enough to be accurate enough. 

So I buy power saws, electric drills, 1/4 sheet sanders, and air nailers. I use mountains of clamps and jigs to hold the work for accuracy. And it still takes me longer to accomplish a task than it takes most folks. But with the aid of electricity and air, I still turn out nice stuff.

All that, and I simply feel like a badass with all the cool, loud tools! :yes::laughing:


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> A enjoy having quality tools as much as anyone, but what makes a handheld beltsander worth $650? That is nearly as much as I paid for my Performax 16-32, and 65 times more than a paid for my newer Porter cable belt sander.


The same thing that makes a table saw worth 5k


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> hwebb99 said:
> 
> 
> > A enjoy having quality tools as much as anyone, but what makes a handheld beltsander worth $650? That is nearly as much as I paid for my Performax 16-32, and 65 times more than a paid for my newer Porter cable belt sander.
> ...


I haven't seen many 1950s table saws worth 5 grand. I could buy a truck load of Powermatic model 66 table saws for 2 grand each. There are plenty for $1500. I have seen plenty under $1000. A table saw has way more than 26 pounds of steel in it.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Shop_Rat said:


> Very interesting thread. I have power tools for maybe a different reason. I no longer possess the strength to run a handsaw for long. I cannot swing a hammer all day like I used to. I cannot turn a bit and brace through multiple holes. I cannot run a piece of sandpaper over a large area long enough to smooth the wood. And I cannot hold heavy tools steady enough to be accurate enough.
> 
> So I buy power saws, electric drills, 1/4 sheet sanders, and air nailers. I use mountains of clamps and jigs to hold the work for accuracy. And it still takes me longer to accomplish a task than it takes most folks. But with the aid of electricity and air, I still turn out nice stuff.
> 
> All that, and I simply feel like a badass with all the cool, loud tools! :yes::laughing:


That about sums me up as well, sucks to get old but it sure beats the alternative. :laughing:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

There is a fairly strong collector market for some of these vintage hand held power tools.

I think 650 is bit strong, but you never know. 

No way PC could make the same sander as my 500 for a reasonable price today.

All I have to do is steer my 500, probably don't have to lean on it.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

The quality level of a hand held belt sander available today is a great example of where a good tool will clearly make a difference in workmanship. The lightweight crap I've seen and used that comes from today's makers of portable power tools do an awful job with grooves, swoosh marks at direction changing points, and little or no dust collection ability despite dust bags.


My 1973 Porter Cable price list shows the 500 listing for $340.00 and the smaller, lighter 503 listing for 200.00. Back then people would pay the price because they knew the value of the sander. Adjusted for inflation, that $340.00 is $1817.44 in today's dollars. The $200.00 is $1069.08 2016 dollars. Keep those relationships in mind before you give price of a used machine the icky-poo.

Below is an old photo. I've since added another 503 to the stable.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

"The lightweight crap I've seen and used that comes from today's makers of portable power tools do an awful job with grooves, swoosh marks at direction changing points, and little or no dust collection ability despite dust bags."

I don't know what sanders you have "seen" But I have have several 4x24 Bosch sanders and have used for years and work flawless. Every comment you made is false with the Bosch. I have a PC sander and if the bag was on the correct side they would work okay as well.

I actually do get it that price and it being different is appealing but I use mine every week making a living and those pictures are from 2005. Still going....


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I had three of the sanders but have only one now, all you have to do with that sander is just hang on, it does all the work. The only down side I can think of is it will hurt your back it is so strong.


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

The best craftsman selects the tool that is most appropriate for the task and then applies the necessary skill to accomplish the job. Someone asked about ripping plywood with a hand saw. I've done it and it is not the appropriate tool for the job. Not only is it awkward and tedious, I will challenge anyone to cut a more perfectly straight, square, clean cut with a handsaw than I can make with my circular saw and a shooter board in a fraction of the time.

And if you think about it, plywood is not from the same era as hand tools. It is from the power tool era. Shaping plywood is just not pleasant to do with hand tools. I think that kind of thing factors into appropriateness.

On the other hand -) there is nothing so pleasant as planing a long, tapered spruce mast with a hand plane and some calipers. I suppose there might be a way to do it with a power planer, but I doubt that you would like the results or the experience.

The human eye likes curves. Machines like straight lines or symmetry (like in a lathe turning.) So a lot of really nice works will probably always require some degree of hand tool usage. Or CNC if you've got the cash.


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## Edward Norton (Apr 6, 2014)

I have to agree with you 100! I have every tool and in multiples of 2 and in some 3 but that does not make me a wood worker. I owned and operated 2 construction companies during my working life and that does not classify me as a wood worker. I've built 100's of homes and countless pieces of furniture & even that doesn't make me a wood worker. 

A true wood worker actually "works" the wood in a way that people today will not and actually cannot understand how to work wood. All of the old masters did not cut wood, plane it then glue and screw it together. They worked the wood in an almost religious way, it was a part of their soul. In essence they became part of the wood they were working with. There projects turned out far superior to those that had every power tool in the book used on them.

I myself only wish that I had what it takes to "love" the wood into form. Granted tools today make our tasks much much easier and what we work on see's completion in a 10th of the time it used to take and I am grateful for that personally but wood working seems almost a lost art in this century.

Just my personal opinion mind you... and like a$$holes, everyone has one right?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

"There projects turned out far superior to those that had every power tool in the book used on them."

That is definitely an opinion....


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## keysbottles (Aug 8, 2012)

20 years ago I went with a friend to an auction to look at a saw sharpening machine that was to be sold. While there I spotted a wooden box with 20 wooden planes, spoke shave and other various hand tools inside. I couldn't resist and bought it. The planes along with the tool box were stamped with ,I assume, the original owners name. Over the years as I cared for them I thought a lot about the man who put this set of tools together and build the box to keep them in. Wondered if he built cabinets, furniture??? I'm sure he felt the same pride in these tools as I do in the tools and machines that I have put together over the years. Anyway, it sparked an interest in antique tools and I have collected them ever since.

I don't use these old tool for fear of damaging them but like most woodworkers I use other hand tools, chisels, coping saws etc. everyday.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

I'll bet in the "old days" woodworkers also thought about new tools a lot. Just because they had to make do with less doesn't mean they weren't human beings. Very few of us don't want more. I'm not one of them.

I love tools and my hobby now pays for itself so in the past several years I've managed to make my shop so crowded I almost can't work in it.

I have a planer and a jointer in my living room that I have to roll down a ramp through the front door to my front porch to use them. No room in the shop for them.

The jointer was given to me by a friend who had a neighbor who just wanted to get rid of it. Needed a new belt and knives. It's an old Craftsman.

The planer is a new Dewalt I bought last month. I made the mistake of turning it on in the house to see if it worked and it blew the circuit. Guess my living room isn't wired for woodworking machines.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> There is a fairly strong collector market for some of these vintage hand held power tools.
> 
> I think 650 is bit strong, but you never know.
> 
> ...


 
I think my PC could get yours in a race. :yes:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Bob Vaughan said:


> The quality level of a hand held belt sander available today is a great example of where a good tool will clearly make a difference in workmanship. The lightweight crap I've seen and used that comes from today's makers of portable power tools do an awful job with grooves, swoosh marks at direction changing points, and little or no dust collection ability despite dust bags.
> 
> 
> *My 1973 Porter Cable price list shows the 500 listing for $340.00 and the smaller, lighter 503 listing for 200.00. Back then people would pay the price because they knew the value of the sander. Adjusted for inflation, that $340.00 is $1817.44 in today's dollars. The $200.00 is $1069.08 2016 dollars. Keep those relationships in mind before you give price of a used machine the icky-poo.*
> ...


 

You nailed it. :yes:


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

It's all been said by now, I'm sure. I'm not going to read all of the posts. I do custom woodwork for a living. I could not do that in this day and age if I did not use power tools. I have very basic ones, A 25 year old Delta contractor's saw; a couple of PC routers, and an original style Omnijig; an old 4" Homecraft/Rockwell jointer with about a 30" long bed; a junky Craftsmen bandsaw; and a Makita 2040 planer I got at an auction. The planer's good, the rest are okay, nothing fancy. I have a few hand planes, old stanleys from garage sales, Stanley chisels, some Japanese saws...

All of that said, I will say that you do not need expensive, top of the line equipment to do the job. Basic, reasonable quality tools will do it. You need to know your tools, know their quirks and idiosyncrasies and how to work with them. With experience, you learn which tools are your most valued. Those might be worth an upgrade. I upgraded from a Stanley combo square to a Bridge City Toolworks 12" combo square many years ago and it was one of the best investments I ever made. You learn, and you take your time and shoot for accuracy. I've a pretty basic tablesaw, but I invest in good blades. 

Yes, nearly any woodworking project can be done with hand tools, just look into the history of the craft. But even chisels, when first invented, were probably viewed as a newfangled gadget.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I hope this is heavy enough.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

That is some serious machines, my old sander has a lot of battle scars on it but it still runs great. I bought that sander along with two others, wore one out and gave one away. If there is a better sander, I haven't found it.


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Awesome thread! If you think about it, & look around your shop, no doubt all of us have some hand tools on hand. Whether we're learning to use them, or are able to use them with experience, I think it's great our "breed" is leaning back towards a few hand tools. Myself, I have a few hand planes in the shop, but have never perfected the use of them. As a scroll sawyer, I may use one now & then, but nothing big. Another comment I see here often is "my junky old tools." I lost 3 machines in the month of December in the working process, one of them being my lathe. I bought those tools used, but have owned them 10 years or better, used them for what they were designed to do, & one of them was even a HF tool. What is it that makes a feller think his investment is "junky?" My ol' shop is a retired beauty shop with a wood floor, & 260 sq. Ft. Of work space. I don't own many shiny new tools, either. My oldest tool in the shop is a 67" lathe, hand built, & put together w/square headed bolts. Rock solid! I have 5 scroll saws, a pre civil war 8" Craftsman TS, as my granddaughter calls it, a planer, & New HF lathe, the list goes on. My point is, as its already been said many times, it's not how shiny your tools are that make the craftsman, its the man behind those tools. How well can you make your project look with the tools you have? That's the idea. Bigger, faster, shiny, yea, I guess that's ok if ya have deep pockets, but how many of us here do??? Its taken me 15 years to acquire the small amount of equipment I have, & learn to use them. I go to the shop to enjoy the hobby. Put my hands & my mind to work to create, to just shut off the outside world for awhile. Not to impress anybody with my tools. My apologies for the rant. Just my .02. Enjoy the day.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*depends on the definition of "woodworking" ....*

If you are a hobbiest, with a small shop and love to work with your hands and maybe some small machines, like scrollsaws or a drill press, then you have a defined "niche" in the woodworking field.

If on the other hand you are a professional and make your living making cabinets, furniture, built ins, large frame beds, then you will have a large shop filled with tablesaws, jointers, planers,sanders and other machines that cut the time and speed the process. There will be several assembly tables and a table/bench with a vise or two. Hand tools may adorn the walls so they are handy when needed.

A pro's shop:











Then there is the middle ground, where the owner is a advanced hobbiest or retired professional and where some machines are prominent, but the workbench is meant for working with hand tools such as planing a board or chiseling a mortise.

Another shop in the middle ground, will have all of the necessary machines to expedite a project and the use of handtools is at a minimum. I fall into this category myself. I love the tablesaws, jointers, sanders and planers I have but I also love the high quality chisels I hand planes I have. I don't make a living selling woodworking projects, so there is no pressure to knock out a lot of piece work in my shop.

A quick look around a shop will tell you right off whether the owner is a hobbiest, semi-advanced, or a pro. The workbench will tell you the priority of hand tool use, a beautiful new or old all wood bench with end vises can be found in either type of shop. The size of the tablesaw will also be a clue and a large surround will indicate the need for supporting large panels for cabinets.

ScottyDs aka mdntrdr's table saw:











Is it "all about the tools?" ... I think so, because you will always need tools to perform the work, it's just the type and quantity that is important for some.:yes:


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

These pens were done on a $150 HF lathe, and all the turning tools were hand made. What does this say? :icon_confused:


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

I disagree woodenthings. To some extent. Your definition of a hobbyist is a fella w/a small shop, a scroll saw, & a drill press, huh? Alright, let's look at this from another angle. And in all honesty, I don't make my living with my woodworking, either. I use it as a supplemental income. But, like I said, I have a small shop, several scroll saws, yes, a drill press, a TS, a RAS, etc. I don't do just scroll work, per say, I'm able to do whatever I desire, except of course, all this fancy machine work, but, I specialize in scroll work. That was maybe the way I should've worded it. I don't know. My shop is not set up for production of any kind, nor do I have any interest in that! My shop set up works for me. The tools I have work for me. I'm not in this to impress anybody with how fancy, or how big my tools are. I'm more concerned about perfection, & getting the job done to suit the client. And I do have references, woodenthings, just in case you're wondering. I may not use all the fancy language some of you do, nor do I have $500,000 worth of tools to show off, but I promise ya, when my clients leave my shop, the work is done thoroughly, & done right. With hand & power tools. Most of them not overly expensive. But they do help me with my woodworking.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> If you are a hobbiest, with a small shop and love to work with your hands and maybe some small machines, like scrollsaws or a drill press, then you have a defined "niche" in the woodworking field.
> 
> If on the other hand you are a professional and make your living making cabinets, furniture, built ins, large frame beds, then you will have a large shop filled with tablesaws, jointers, planers,sanders and other machines that cut the time and speed the process. There will be several assembly tables and a table/bench with a vise or two. Hand tools may adorn the walls so they are handy when needed.
> 
> ...


The shops you show are no more than hobby to one man shops. Neither capable of any real production.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It is not a "production" shop*



Rebelwork said:


> The shops you show are no more than hobby to one man shops. Neither capable of any real production.


It is indeed a one-man shop, a very professional shop capable of high quality work. A production or cabinet shop is a whole 'nother animal and I would venture to say there are only a few on this site. Leo G's, Oneal's, Warner's come to mind. But I don't recall any of our members running full blown cabinet shops with Martin, Felder, Streibig, Holzher other $20,000 sliding table or vertical panel saws, in 20,000 sq ft shops, but I could be wrong..... 


A professional shop need not be a "production" shop.
Are you a "production" shop?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I am both. I work for a production restaurant furniture company and the one who builds the unique pieces ordered by those companies. In some cases I build these pieces and setup the time frame for which they can be sold for. My skills are used for two purposes. #1 Build one time furniture pieces for clients and #2 Build production pieces to establish material,setup time to establish a price. 

We sister with http://midwestcabinet.com/...

And yes I have my furniture shop just for my projects...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have seen your game tables ...*



Rebelwork said:


> I am both. I work for a production restaurant furniture company and the one who builds the unique pieces ordered by those companies. In some cases I build these pieces and setup the time frame for which they can be sold for. My skills are used for two purposes. #1 Build one time furniture pieces for clients and #2 Build production pieces to establish material,setup time to establish a price.
> 
> We sister with http://midwestcabinet.com/...
> 
> And yes I have my furniture shop just for my projects...


Your game tables are awesome! I wonder if you got orders for several, like 10, what would you do? Would you then go from your "furniture" shop to a production shop or what? How would you maintain the level of quality that has been established? OR would you just refuse the work? :blink:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Your game tables are awesome! I wonder if you got orders for several, like 10, what would you do? Would you then go from your "furniture" shop to a production shop or what? How would you maintain the level of quality that has been established? OR would you just refuse the work? :blink:


I only build 1. There will only be one. I keep the patterns but still only make 1. For me to agree to make a second one requires only that you pay me what I want. Meaning I didn't refuse to make it, only they refused to pay for it. 

Small shop doesn't have to give up quality nor a production shop unless you want to sell to Walmart.


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Well, the race is on! Again. What is it that consumes a feller so deep that nothing but bigger & better is all that matters? I understand production. I also fully understand making a living. In the trucking business, we call them boys that have to have the shiniest, fastest, on & on, super truckers. I'm yet to figure out what to think about the competition amongst woodworkers. I've been at this for 15 years, give or take, & I have to say I've fixed some pretty shoddy work done by said "professionals", & seen better work done by the "middle ground woodworker" as woodenthings called it. The best I can figure out from some, the more tools you own, the better woodworker you are supposed to be. And others say the fewer tools you own, & more creativity, the better woodworker you are. It doesn't take a shop full of fancy tools to be a woodworker, IMHO. I believe if a person has a passion for it, willingness to learn with what they have, & the creativity to put projects together, you've got a start at becoming a woodworker. Its not all about the tools, IMO.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Really?*

I don't know of a single woodworker on this site who thinks/believes that the more tools he owns, the better the woodworker he is. Not a one. It's a straw man argument you are having with yourself. Nobody is going to admit it even if they do think that way. :no:

We woodworkers get and acquire the tools we need on a "as needed" basis. Nobody I know here here has $$$$$$ to spend just to get the biggest baddest tools. My 3 table saw setup, Sawzilla cost me less than $2000 all totaled and I love it. I just cut to the center of a 4 X 8 at 48" a day ago and it was dead nuts. Then I had to take an 1/8" off to make other 48" pieces work.... dead nuts. I didn't have to spend $20,000 on a sliding table Martin. This saw evolved over a period of 40 years, adding a third saw just a few years ago. I don't have to change blades for ripping or crosscutting or dadoing. I love it. I hate changing blades. I have 2 bandsaws with different width and pitch blades for the same reason, I hate changing blades. The total cost for both saws was $650.00, not bad. I bought one new and one used.
I have a cheap Ryobi scroll saw that I rarely use. I bought it on sale, and it works OK, not great. I built my own sliding vertical 2 axis panel saw. See My Photos. I enjoyed the challenge and it takes up less space than single axis saw when you need to rip a 8 ft panel. I made my own radial arm router attachment for a old Craftsman RAS. See My Photos. You just pull off the saw carriage and put on the router carriage. 

You don't need a bag of money to make the tools you need for your shop, if you have the skills to make them. I love having the appropriate tools I need for the projects I make, and if I can make a tool or machine I will.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

You guys have sure got some great old belt sanders---I'll have to see if I can find one of those--

I think that is 'industrial Art'---Polished up, that would look good in my living room!


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Is woodworking all about tools?* I can see this thread living on for many years to come. 

For me, it always has been. before I was a commercial woodworker it was all about immediate gratification. When I became a commercial woodworker, it was all about time, efficiency and accuracy. Now that I am retired, live and travel on my boat full-time with my better half and no longer have a shop, my tools are limited to what I can fit on my boat which is not much. And so, the cycle of life repeats itself - I'm back to the 'immediate gratification' thing again. It's still all about tools even though I have little to none. My woodworking is limited to what i actually need to do with virtually no time for what I want to do. My limitations are purely time and space because my boat is not big. What used to be simple projects are now 4 and 5 day events. I still very much enjoy doing it, but I keep thinking that this used to take only a few hours. 
Sometimes I get lucky and run into a woodworker and get to use their shop for a day or two and I'm in heaven. First thing I ask is usually "what stationary tools do you own". 
I love my traveling but still miss my woodworking, and yes - my tools.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Tony B said:


> *Is woodworking all about tools?* I can see this thread living on for many years to come.
> 
> For me, it always has been. before I was a commercial woodworker it was all about immediate gratification. When I became a commercial woodworker, it was all about time, efficiency and accuracy. Now that I am retired, live and travel on my boat full-time with my better half and no longer have a shop, my tools are limited to what I can fit on my boat which is not much. And so, the cycle of life repeats itself - I'm back to the 'immediate gratification' thing again. It's still all about tools even though I have little to none. My woodworking is limited to what i actually need to do with virtually no time for what I want to do. My limitations are purely time and space because my boat is not big. What used to be simple projects are now 4 and 5 day events. I still very much enjoy doing it, but I keep thinking that this used to take only a few hours.
> Sometimes I get lucky and run into a woodworker and get to use their shop for a day or two and I'm in heaven. First thing I ask is usually "what stationary tools do you own".
> I love my traveling but still miss my woodworking, and yes - my tools.


Tools for sure don't make the wood worker, the right tools just make it easier to do the work, the quality is totally in the heart of the wood worker.

I can relate to Tony's wood working set up. At one time my shop was 50X100 now that I am retired it is 12X18 and jammed packed with wood that is just too nice to trash and tools that I just hate to part with. 
Over the years I bought the tools as I needed them or thought they would make the job faster and better quality. A wood worker doesn't buy just one particular tool and that is it for life, that same tool may be replaced many times and for different reasons. Tools can be addictive and a lot of fun, at least for me they were. 

My plans are to downsize to a nice work bench with all the organization that goes with a clean saw dust free, squeaky clean shop with all the great tools in a show room style display on the walls....OK so it is a dream but it is my dream. LOL Right now the shop looks like a bomb went off in there. LOL


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

BigJim said:


> ......
> My plans are to downsize to a nice work bench with all the organization that goes with a clean saw dust free, squeaky clean shop with all the great tools in a show room style display on the walls....OK so it is a dream but it is my dream. LOL Right now the shop looks like a bomb went off in there. LOL


Traveling by boat, I have been using park benches and clamps as my work table. I recently bought a plastic work bench of around $50 at Home depot. Works good for me. When we settle in somewhere for about 3 months or longer, I catch up to my van (Ford Econoline) which is my local transportation and mini-storage on wheels. And once settled in, i rent a mini-storage so I can unload the van and travel in safety.

When I go back down river this spring, I will be passing through Chattanooga again. Come by and visit if you can. On my way upriver, we stayed at the downtown marina (right behind the Aquarium) for several days. Will probably do that again.


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## Bill White 2 (Jun 23, 2012)

It ain't the arrow, its the Indian.
Bill


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Ain't no disagreement w/myself here, woodenthings, I merely stated my opinion. I purchase tools as I need them as well. I don't deny the fact that several tools are needed for every project, hand or power. I personally don't believe woodworking is all about tools. And good for you that you have the shop room & "sawzilla" that'll cut dead nuts. Mine does too. I keep it tuned & clean so it will. All my tools are "dead nuts" woodenthings, Even my scroll saws. And I have them set up to do different things on each saw. If my opinion ruffled your feathers, My sincere apologies. But, if you don't mind Sir, I'll stick to my opinion because I've read it to often. And not just here. I'm able to just about anything I want to do within my capabilities & shop room with what few tools I have on hand.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I used to be a very active member on here up until about 3 years ago when my priorities changed from woodworking to retirement and cruising.. 
Lots of new names and faces and still some of the old. The one thing that hasn't changed is the petty bickering. I will admit, I have also let myself be dragged into it a time or two.
I dont know what or why things turn so personal. I have had several careers in my life starting with 20 years as Electronics Engineer, then a commercial Woodworking business, then Commercial boat captain in the Gulf of Mex, followed by more woodworking businesses (sometimes concurrent) then Inspector on offshore oil rigs. In all of those years in the work force I very rarely ever saw this kind of bickering. I'm sure most of you can say the same. So, why on here, and "here" is not just this particular forum - its the same on boating forums and everywhere else. 
Why cant we just play nice? After all, it is supposed to be fun not a pressure release valve. 
I say, kiss and make up, a group hug or just learn to not take things personal that were probably not meant to be personal in the first place. 
Skip the apologies, just make new posts and forget the past. 
If we were a real life woodworking club meeting face to face every day, I guarantee we would not have the same bickering. We would be laughing and "cutting up". 
OK, I'm open for attack.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Rebelwork said:


> The shops you show are no more than hobby to one man shops. Neither capable of any real production.


My shop is 10' x 30' and I do "real production". I make 10's of thousands of pieces per year and barely keep up with sales.

I have over-grown my shop. I'm a model-builder and when I moved in that's what the shop was for.

Then there was demand for a tool I made for myself and now I sell them. Model-building is pretty much out the window because I don't have room to build RC planes and do production. The production has taken over the shop and then some.

This is what I'm making:

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/store/magnetic_fixture_system_2/how_fixures_are_made.htm


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

There's one thing that I've learned for sure over the years, which is the only way you can judge the skills of someone is by directly inspecting their projects.

You can tell almost nothing based on the size of their shop, or the 'quality' of their tools. I've seen people with shops 10 times nicer than mine, and I was impressed (and I assumed they must be more skilled than I am, because of their sophisticated tooling). However, when I saw their work firsthand it was awful and amateurish. It was essentially hack-work.

I've also talked with people who talked a very good game, and I was impressed. This person seemed to know more than I did about a particular topic. Again, years later I saw his work firsthand and it was also really awful. I was being paid to repair his bad work.

So, I've been temporarily fooled before. Now, I don't even care what someone's tool collection looks like, I don't care about their talk, I only want to see the results. And, in the end, nothing else really matters.

I got Sam Maloof's book, and there are quite a few pictures of his shop. It is really quite modest, and he uses a lot of fairly simple tools.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Tony B said:


> Traveling by boat, I have been using park benches and clamps as my work table. I recently bought a plastic work bench of around $50 at Home depot. Works good for me. When we settle in somewhere for about 3 months or longer, I catch up to my van (Ford Econoline) which is my local transportation and mini-storage on wheels. And once settled in, i rent a mini-storage so I can unload the van and travel in safety.
> 
> When I go back down river this spring, I will be passing through Chattanooga again. Come by and visit if you can. On my way upriver, we stayed at the downtown marina (right behind the Aquarium) for several days. Will probably do that again.


That marina is about 3 or 4 miles from our house, looking forward to meeting you in the Spring.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Good points above from pweller*

It's all about the finished product, not the means required to get there. I'll admit I'm a tool addict, I even like making tools that make things, maybe a little more than making the things themselves.

I had an example of which tool to use today when making shelves for the storage room. I had about a 1/16" run off of the 3/4" ply on the top and bottom panels beyond the sides, about 14" long. The question was how to make the surfaces flush... belt sander, hand plane, flush trim with a router ... all of which were close at hand. I decided to use the router and in a matter of less than a minute the excess material was gone and turned into dust. These are just utility cabinets , so it's not fine furniture quality. I could have stood the cabinet on end to hand plane it, but it was a hand full just to move it and tip it over, so that influenced my choice also. 

So, I used the power tool, which was fast and easy, not the hand tool. :yes:


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

I agree with ya 100% on that, woodenthings. Out here in nowhere Kansas, it's easier to make the necessary tools than try to buy them. Some of the creations I come up ain't good for only a one time shot, but they get the job done.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

CafeenMan said:


> ............
> 
> This is what I'm making:
> 
> http://www.airfieldmodels.com/store/magnetic_fixture_system_2/how_fixures_are_made.htm


Thanks for the link. It was very impressive.
I noticed a statement that it was difficult to get plywood. That seemes odd to me because I never had that problem unles I bought it from the big orange box, which i will never do again. 
have you ever tried baltic birch or Apple Ply? They are of better quality and should be flat. 

Anyway, thanks again


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Tony B said:


> Thanks for the link. It was very impressive.
> I noticed a statement that it was difficult to get plywood. That seemes odd to me because I never had that problem unles I bought it from the big orange box, which i will never do again.
> have you ever tried baltic birch or Apple Ply? They are of better quality and should be flat.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again


It is Baltic birch. It's thin stuff. I've gotten it from various sources but I've watched parts curl just in change in temperature in my shop. A piece 9" long might bow 1/2" in just an hour from temp change.

I think that's just the way it is. Last year I stopped making the tallest fixtures in my system due to lack of wood that was flat enough. It was always stressing me out because I couldn't make enough tall pieces to meet demand. I kept raising my prices to slow down the sales but that didn't work. Every time I raised my prices sales went UP. ???

So I got rid of the tallest pieces and added extensions to the system. A little more fiddling but less stress for me and wood supply isn't so much a problem now.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

CafeenMan said:


> It is Baltic birch. It's thin stuff. I've gotten it from various sources but I've watched parts curl just in change in temperature in my shop. A piece 9" long might bow 1/2" in just an hour from temp change............


 I can certainly understand your frustrations so let me step back a little to around 2012 which is around when I sold my shop. All of a sudden the local price of Baltic birch went way down. Normally, I bought all my woods from Houston Hardwoods in Houston, Tx. Their prices were still high so I figured I would 'stray' from my supplier and try the BB that was appearing in the local lumberyards. To my surprise, the stuff sold locally looked different, the quality of the outer veneers were not quite as 'finished' and quite frankly it was not the same stuff I was used to. Trying to remember back, I'm thinking it may not have been in the typical 5X5 sheets. I think it was 4X8's. Cant remember for sure. 
Anyway, I used it for drawer sides in my which it was OK for me. I could never use it for customer's stuff. 
Bottom line is that I went back to Houston Hardwoods for the Good stuff and gladly paid more for it. 
So what I'm thinking is maybe you can find a new supplier just to experiment and might get lucky. Time is money.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

The stuff I'm using is sold as 3/16". I measured it once but don't remember the metric equivalent. I've called around looking for it and didn't have a lot of success.

It's definitely from Scandinavian as every board is marked "Finland" on the edge. I honestly think it's just going to bow from the climate but I'll check Houston Hardwoods. It's hard to find this thickness.

1/4" is usually the thinnest I can find.

The way I get it is 1' x 4' which is why I have to cut it into strips. A lot goes to waste that way. If I could get wider boards I could use a lot more of it by sharing a diagonal on the cuts leaving a little room for a trim cut after they're separated.

You can see that triangle that gets thrown away from every pair. A couple of them makes a whole fixture.

But I did the math and if I put them side by side instead of overlapping I lose even more. I don't remember where it works out but 24" or 30" is the minimum width I'd need.

I know European boards are the 5 x 5 boards and their full sheets are 5 x 10 I think.

Thanks for your input.

By the way, these are the other major parts of the system:

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/store/magnetic_fixture_system_2/how_vertical_presses_are_made.htm


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## MLP (Nov 25, 2010)

Heh, Caffeenman! Funny running into you at this site!
It makes sense, though, because of all your modeling!


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Another suggestion would be to stop by a few local cabinet shops and ask the owner where he gets his BB plywood. Most reputable cabinet shops would NEVER buy from Home Depot or Lowes. As a matter of fact, Home Depot and Lowes are the only places I ever saw warped MDF. Beats all odds. 

Another problem could possibly be buying 1' X 4' strips. These strips may be coming from culls. When you see some 8' long culls, the wood dont look bad when cut into smaller pieces. 

When you have good BB, you should be able to round-over route the edges and they should look nice and slick. That's why it is popular in cabinet drawer sides in standard (not the high end) cabinets. Probably wont even need sanding although sanding is always a very good idea.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

CafeenMan said:


> The stuff I'm using is sold as 3/16". I measured it once but don't remember the metric equivalent. I've called around looking for it and didn't have a lot of success.
> 
> It's definitely from Scandinavian as every board is marked "Finland" on the edge. I honestly think it's just going to bow from the climate but I'll check Houston Hardwoods. It's hard to find this thickness.
> snip


In Canada I believe what you are looking for is Aircraft Plywood. 

http://www.windsorplywood.com/Aircraft_Plywood.aspx


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

MLP said:


> Heh, Caffeenman! Funny running into you at this site!
> It makes sense, though, because of all your modeling!


Started making tools because of model-building. So yeah, I get around.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

FrankC said:


> In Canada I believe what you are looking for is Aircraft Plywood.
> 
> http://www.windsorplywood.com/Aircraft_Plywood.aspx


Actual aircraft plywood is WAY too expensive. I'd never be able to sell what I'm making. I'm using cabinet grade plywood.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Tony B said:


> Another suggestion would be to stop by a few local cabinet shops and ask the owner where he gets his BB plywood. Most reputable cabinet shops would NEVER buy from Home Depot or Lowes. As a matter of fact, Home Depot and Lowes are the only places I ever saw warped MDF. Beats all odds.
> 
> Another problem could possibly be buying 1' X 4' strips. These strips may be coming from culls. When you see some 8' long culls, the wood dont look bad when cut into smaller pieces.
> 
> When you have good BB, you should be able to round-over route the edges and they should look nice and slick. That's why it is popular in cabinet drawer sides in standard (not the high end) cabinets. Probably wont even need sanding although sanding is always a very good idea.


All the local cabinet shops closed. The only ones still in business install pre-fab sort of stuff or use laminates over particle board. Nobody does anything high-end around here.

I'm getting my stuff from a model aircraft supplier so they supply in smaller quantities. Model-builders would never use a large sheet of ply which would be a lifetime supply.

I've called around to wood-worker suppliers and this thickness is just very hard to find.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I looked but didn't find ....*

I looked at your site, but couldn't find where you are located....
Where are you? What state, or nearby city ....USA, Canada?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I remembered this plywood*

I recalled that Russian Birch plywood is much better than Baltic Birch:
http://www.russianlumber.com/plywood.htm

Quote:








*RUSSIAN BIRCH *  (Betula Pendula/Pubescens. Known as Baltic Birch as well) grown in cold environment of Russia possesses excellent strength properties with beautiful white fiber which makes Russian Birch Plywood far superior than Birch plywood manufactured in other parts of the world.

Also here:
http://www.wolstenholme.com/plywood-products/baltic-birch/


Wolstenholme International
A Division of Concannon Lumber 2060 Broadway Suite 320
Boulder CO 80302
(800) 553-3732
(303) 530-0435
(303) 530-3742 fax

also on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baltic-Birc...hash=item46187a51e5:m:mTEMIhiaCbF33opMBvYfCiw

"free shipping"


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Florida


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Woodnthings is correct. The Russian Baltic Birch was always the best. 
ApplePly is made in the U.S. and also was a very good product about 30 years ago whenm I used it last. I dont know how their product stands in quality to others today. Manufacturers go from good to bad and vice verse over the years. 
That being said, the good stuff is still available to somebody. Woodnthings gave you a good starting point.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*Thanks!!*

Thank you Cricket!


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*Update!*

Two months have passed since posting this thread, and I can now post a reply here to thank all the posters who have contributed.


It has been amazing to see your great responses. Thank you!:smile3:


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