# Why put fence on the right side on table saw?



## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

Hello~

A simple question, why do we always put the rip fence on the right side of the saw blade?

I've watched hundreds of YouTube videos, and I have not seen any video in which the guy's cutting wood with the rip fence on the left side of the blade! Well, there actually were a couple of videos, but those were not type of cuts where the saw blade was protruding through the wood, i.e. dado cuts or rabbit cuts.

I think using the table saw with the rip fence left side of the blade will be a little bit safer. Since I try not to stay directly behind the space between the blade and the fence (unless I have to, like cutting a wide plywood sheet) I usually keep my body left side of the blade. Being right handed, it's a bit awkward to keep my body on the right side of the blade and fence because that way, I would really have to reach in to use my dominant arm.

If I keep the fence on left side of the blade, I can keep my body along with the fence. I can use my right arm to push the wood through, while keeping it tight against the fence, without having to reach over the spinning blade(!) to complete the cut like I normally have to with conventional rip fence and my body orientation.

Is there actually a reason that we MUST keep the rip fence right side of the blade?? The only situation when this can be unsafe I can think of is when making a cut with the blade tilted. As the most of modern table saws tilt the blade to left, if we put the fence on the left then I can cause some jam. However, other than that, what would be a problem?

There's an added benefit for doing this for me; with this new fence location I would be able to use my magnetic jointer finger board on my cast iron table saw top! :smile3: 

If I had enough guts, I would've actually tried it out to see how it worked out. But since I am always intimidated by these power tools, especially likes of table saw, I thought I should ask around first. 

Have a nice day!


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*my simple answer*



Yamster said:


> Hello~
> 
> A simple question, why do we always put the rip fence on the right side of the saw blade?




Because most people are right handed and it is easier to guide the workpiece against the fence with the right hand.:wink2:


Be safe!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is no reason the fence can't be put on the left side. It might take some bit of work to get the fence system and table extension on the left side but if it would feel more comfortable to you it would be safer. If others are using your saw though you better leave it alone.


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## oldbaldy (Feb 5, 2016)

like a lot of things in life it is just how you started doing it or were taught by others -- Do what feels most natural to you within the guidelines of shop safety


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Depends if you have a left or right hand tilting blade.

When you make a angled cut with a left tilting blade with the fence on the right the cut off part is above the blade so is not trapped, with a right tilt saw and a fence on the right side the cut off piece will be trapped under the blade and against the fence which could result in a kickback.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You can put the fence wherever .....*

You can, as you have proposed, locate the fence on the left side of the blade, just don't tilt the blade.

What concerned me is this statement:

_If I keep the fence on left side of the blade, I can keep my body along with the fence. I can use my right arm to push the wood through, while keeping it tight against the fence, without having to reach over the spinning blade(!) to complete the cut like I normally have to with conventional rip fence and my body orientation.

_You should never reach over a spinning blade. Period._:surprise2:
_
If you normally use a splitter, it will help keep the wood registered against the fence. If you don't you may have a problem, just using your right hand trying to push forward and in toward the fence simultaneously. It's easier to push away than in. The human factor becomes important here. If you allow the work to come off the fence, just one time, for an instant, you will have a kickback. With your body positioned to the left and behind you may avoid any injury, BUT I wouldn't do it for those reasons.

It sounds like you are so concerned with a potential kickback that you are creating an condition where if you used your splitter and the fence on the right side, those potential problems would go away, at least that's what I have experienced. You should never have your hands in direct line with the plane of the blade... if possible .... and when necessary never less than 3" from the blade or where the insert is... it's painted red for a reason! Always use a push stick or shoe when ripping narrow pieces. A push shoe is better because you can also press down as well as forward.

I liked your question and it was very well explained.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Another thing comes to mind for me and the way I use my push stick/shoe; with my fence on the right and pushing stock through, my right thumb is toward the blade and I can see everything in good plain sight. If I were to cut on the right side of the fence instead of the left and also keep my body left of the fence, and because I'm right-handed, I would still see my thumb but I would now have 4 knuckles partially hidden from my view and, depending on how small the cut width and stock thickness, riding much closer to the blade than I would like. 


I can see where on very rare occasions it might be beneficial to put the fence on the left side of the blade but I'll be keeping mine on the right side.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Jig_saw said:


> Because most people are right handed and it is easier to guide the workpiece against the fence with the right hand.:wink2:
> 
> 
> Be safe!




... Plus I would like to see my fingers and the blade clearly at all times, which is not possible when I am standing on the left of the fence and the blade is on its right.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Left tilt saw fence to the right of the blade, right tilt saw fence to the left of the blade. There many reasons why you don't want the blade pointed towards the fence on a bevel cut.

I suppose on a straight cut you put it on either side but I'd wager that most would agree it's more ergonomic to push material against the fence than to try and pull it.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

In any industry there is what are known as common practices, so when you see things habitually being done in a certain way there is often a good reason that has stood the test of time. It is probably the safest and most efficient way of doing it.

As has been mentioned it only really matters when cutting a bevel, but if you have the fence over on the left side with with a left tilt blade chances are that there will come a time when to save a couple minutes you will make a bevel cut and trap the off cut resulting in a kick back. Accidents rarely happen, there is usually a cause.


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## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies.

While reading the responses, I realized that how to saw the wood - whether the fence on the left or right side - would greatly depend on the shape, thickness, and size of the wood, as well as a type of push stick/gear to use. Well, that really shouldn't be a surprise.

Even though I figured keeping the fence on left would make more sense for the most of the cuts I make, I guess there could be some situation doing so would be less favorable, too, as some of you pointed out.

This got me to think about the safety one more time, so I think it's cool. I saw some tips and advice regarding safety, which I appreciate and will definitely try to remember. 

Well, at least it seems like there is no inherent danger of using the saw with the fence to the left of the blade, as long as I play it safe (which is something I should do even when I have the fence to the right side anyway). After all, I guess there indeed was a reason that the right of the rip fence was as smooth as the other side; it's meant to be used 

Have a nice day!


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Yamster said:


> snip
> 
> Well, at least it seems like there is no inherent danger of using the saw with the fence to the left of the blade, as long as I play it safe (which is something I should do even when I have the fence to the right side anyway). After all, I guess there indeed was a reason that the right of the rip fence was as smooth as the other side; it's meant to be used
> 
> Have a nice day!


If you go back and read the previous posts there are inherent dangers, however if you want to ignore them that is up to you.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

does the blade tilt to the right or to the left?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think all that really matters is if a person is right handed or left handed. Any way a person can operate a saw right handed could be just reversed for the left handed person. As far as the right or left tilt, I've had both and could care less which way the blade tilts.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*"handedness" comes into play here*

A right handed operator can push the work into the fence on the right side of the blade, as well as pushing it along into the blade while standing to the left of the blade. 

A left handed operator standing to the right of the blade with a fence on the left side of the blade can do the same. 

A right handed operator can NOT pull the work into the fence when it's on the left, there is no control this way. You would have to stand to the right and push in and forward, crossing over your other arm... not ergonomically easy.

So, right handed operators will have better and safer results by having the fence on the right. When you don't have full control of the work, you will have a kickback eventually.

This is true in all cases and does not address the potential of tilting the saw for a bevel, into the fence, trapping the work:


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## hts1965 (Jan 19, 2016)

I use my saw both ways. Usually if I am cutting a 45 for a miter I put it on the side that cuts with the long point up, because that makes the cleanest finish cut.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Since the majority of us are right handed, most things made for lefties cost more. This includes saws, shotguns, baseball gloves Etc. I know this first hand because my son is left handed and I have two left handed grandkids. 
You can buy Skil Saws in either right or left.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Toolman50 said:


> You can buy Skil Saws in either right or left.


That is NOT because they care about left handed people friend... :no:


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

OnealWoodworking said:


> That is NOT because they care about left handed people friend... :no:


Please explain. If not for lefties, why?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I'm a righty, but I like a lefty*

When the blade is on the left side of the saw, a right handed person can more easily see the blade and the cut line. Not so with a right bladed saw where you have to lean over the saw and to see the cut line. If you use the marked plate on the shoe and just track the line with that, then it's a lot easier. Two of my battery powered saws have the blade on the left, Dewalt and Milwaukee, but the Rigid is a right blade. The older Porter Cable and Skil corded saws have the blade on the right and as a result I rarely use them any longer, and besides the battery saws are so much handier with no cord to get in the way.

The worm drive saws are left bladed. Go figure....


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Toolman50 said:


> Please explain. If not for lefties, why?


Try cutting a 1" strip off a sheet of plywood with the base against a straight edge with a left hand blade and you will see why, it is so much easier.


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## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

FrankC said:


> If you go back and read the previous posts there are inherent dangers, however if you want to ignore them that is up to you.


Well, I did not mean to say I would ignore all the pointers and tips that I have received, but I really did not see any "inherent danger" other than one regarding blade tilting angle, which I am very well aware and actually have mentioned in my original posting. All the other safety concerns and tips, such as never to reach over the spinning blade, would be applicable/true regardless of the fence location. Well, at least that's how I understood it.

Thank you for your concerns, however.

Have a nice day!


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Yamster said:


> Well, I did not mean to say I would ignore all the pointers and tips that I have received, but I really did not see any "inherent danger" other than one regarding blade tilting angle, which I am very well aware and actually have mentioned in my original posting. *All the other safety concerns and tips, such as never to reach over the spinning blade, would be applicable/true regardless of the fence location.* Well, at least that's how I understood it.
> 
> Thank you for your concerns, however.
> 
> Have a nice day!


 
Most of the advice and 'tips' you got were from hobby woodworkers that have never done this stuff for a living. They might cut the same amount of wood in a year (or 10) that many professionals cut in a single day. 

Reaching over or behind a spinning blade will NOT cause your saw to explode or your fingers to instantly detach from your body. You have to use your own common sense when choosing how to secure your material and making your cut.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Toolman50 said:


> Please explain. If not for lefties, why?


The left handed circular saw is a specialty tool commonly used by guys that have particular cuts that they do often enough to deem it as being 'helpful' to them and worth having around. There are times when you really 'want' the thing to swing over the other way to be able to make the cut that you want more quickly and more safely / easily. 

Doing outside stair stringers that 45 to the risers is the best example I can think of right now. Depending on which side of the stair you are doing - You may *really* want a left handed circular saw to make the cuts.

Or you can just drive your regular circular saw (very carefully) backwards to do the same thing... :thumbsup:


Stair guys are about the only guys you will ever see on a jobsite with one of these tools and most times we have to special order them when we finally decide to buy one... :smile3:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*table saw vs circular saws*

The 2 different types of saws and their safety issues are completely different and should not be compared as if they are the same.



OnealWoodworking said:


> Reaching over or behind a spinning blade will NOT cause your saw to explode or your fingers to instantly detach from your body.
> 
> _Reaching over or behind the spinning blade on a table saw is a very risky procedure, and I would never recommend it. The cut off and the workpiece should always be safely pushed away to a position where they can be safely reached, either off onto the outfeed support or to the side away from the blade. To do otherwise is asking for Murphy to come along and make his presence known. If it can go wrong, it will .... kinda thing._
> 
> ...


If you start mixing advice for circular saws in with the original issue of right or left fence location on the table saw it will get confusing. You certainly have made great points on the use of right or left handed circular saws for staircase builds, but as Frank stated there are many occasion where having the blade and line visible on cutting or ripping panels is far easier with a left blade saw in the right hand of the operator. JMO.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Most of the advice and 'tips' you got were from hobby woodworkers that have never done this stuff for a living. They might cut the same amount of wood in a year (or 10) that many professionals cut in a single day. Reaching over or behind a spinning blade will NOT cause your saw to explode or your fingers to instantly detach from your body. You have to use your own common sense when choosing how to secure your material and making your cut.


 I have seen a lot of professional woodworkers that lost their membership to the 10 finger club. Any way you slice it reaching over a spinning blade is a bad idea.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> I have seen a lot of professional woodworkers that lost their membership to the 10 finger club. Any way you slice it reaching over a spinning blade is a bad idea.


Reaching over a spinning blade won't hurt you unless you don't lift it up when returning it. Once the board has finished being cut and sitting on the catch table there is no reason you can't reach back and pick it up. It's when the board is still between the blade and the fence there is a danger and you should not reach over the blade.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Murphy's Law*



Steve Neul said:


> Reaching over a spinning blade won't hurt you unless you don't lift it up when returning it. *Once the board has finished being cut and sitting on the catch table there is no reason you can't* *reach back and pick it up*. It's when the board is still between the blade and the fence there is a danger and you should not reach over the blade.


My opinion :
If the blade is exposed, and still spinning it's a potential hazard. *If you can reach around it from the side and move your pieces,* then there is no potential for injury.

If you reach *over the spinning blade*, 2 things can potentially happen:
!. the piece can slip out of your grip and fall on the blade which will kick it back at you.
2. if it slips out your grip, the natural instinct will be to try to catch it and that's when you may come too close to the blade and cause an injury. It's just not a good practice. :frown2:

You should always push all pieces, especially if they are narrow beyond the spinning blade with your push stick to the rear and to either side, and don't reach over the exposed blade. Don't take any chances or Murphy will show up and teach you a lesson. If you want to "take chances", buy a Lotto ticket or play Bingo, but not in the shop where there's too many things that can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong.....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> My opinion :
> If the blade is exposed, and still spinning it's a potential hazard. *If you can reach around it from the side and move your pieces,* then there is no potential for injury.
> 
> If you reach *over the spinning blade*, 2 things can potentially happen:
> ...


When the board has been cut it's naturally to one side of the blade or the other. As far as dropping the material or anything goes wrong while the blade is turning I instinctively reach for the sky. I can't ever remember dropping a piece though. Around a spinning blade I'm more than a little careful.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*THis video says what I've been saying ...*



Steve Neul said:


> When the board has been cut it's naturally to one side of the blade or the other. As far as dropping the material or anything goes wrong while the blade is turning I instinctively reach for the sky. I can't ever remember dropping a piece though. Around a spinning blade I'm more than a little careful.



In less then the first minute he says don't reach over the blade and have an accident like I did....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> In less then the first minute he says don't reach over the blade and have an accident like I did....
> 
> Woodworking Tips: Table Saw Safety Tips - YouTube


The video also dosen't say the operator knows what the H he's talking about.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK, then*



Steve Neul said:


> The video also dosen't say the operator knows what the H he's talking about.


He's a pretty well known and respected woodworker ... but if you want to reach over an exposed, spinning blade you go right ahead. You should notice the demo saw is a Saw Stop with a fully covered blade. :surprise2: Since he said that's how he had his injury, it proves my point. I've also had a kick back doing that before learning a lesson. I wouldn't do it, and I don't recommend anyone else do it. Either wait until the blade completely stops or reach in from the side.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

with all the years Steve's been doing this professionally he doesn't deserve your respect? One can make all the videos in the world and still know very little about the professional work of woodworking...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> He's a pretty well known and respected woodworker ... but if you want to reach over an exposed, spinning blade you go right ahead. You should notice the demo saw is a Saw Stop with a fully covered blade. :surprise2: Since he said that's how he had his injury, it proves my point. I've also had a kick back doing that before learning a lesson. I wouldn't do it, and I don't recommend anyone else do it. Either wait until the blade completely stops or reach in from the side.


All it proves is he doesn't have the skill to be teaching others. When I went to work for the first professional shop the guy that owned the business took a lot of time to teach me to be safe around a saw and in more than 40 years I've never had even a close call. In addition I've worked around a lot of very fine craftsman over the years and we all reach over the blade. As long as the board is lifted a foot or more over the blade when retrieving it can't be a danger. For those just getting into woodworking and especially folks learning on their own they shouldn't be operating a saw without a guard anyway. It's like anything else, it takes the training.


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

And to use a sawstop video to attempt to prove your point? Surely even you, wood, could do better than that with 50 years experience.😈


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You guys can operate your saws any way you want. I'm going to walk to the side of my saw to retrieve to piece.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This is all I got left....*

http://tablesawaccidents.com/


Pick your statistic. Of the 52,000 "reported accidents 17% were caused by "holing, pulling, or reaching over..." thats 8,840.









Or using this chart 13% were caused by "reaching over the blade" which is 6,760.









Which ever chart you use, it's too many injuries, and that's not my opinion, it's a fact. How many injuries went "unreported" .... :surprise2:

In 50% of the injuries, the blade guard was not on the saw:










You guys can do what you want ever in your own shops, but recommending a "potentially" risky procedure on a large forum like this is likely to influence some folks with less than 50 years of experience, .... just sayin' 


Ya'll get your 5 HP 12" Powermatic reved up and drop a chunk of plywood on the blade from a height of 1 foot and come back here and tell us what exactly happened.
I've made my points and I'm through here. Carry on.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Woodnthings... why not just try and make a point and move on without getting silly at the end.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> http://tablesawaccidents.com/ Pick your statistic. Of the 52,000 "reported accidents 17% were caused by "holing, pulling, or reaching over..." thats 8,840. Or using this chart 13% were caused by "reaching over the blade" which is 6,760. Which ever chart you use, it's too many injuries, and that's not my opinion, it's a fact. How many injuries went "unreported" .... :surprise2: In 50% of the injuries, the blade guard was not on the saw: You guys can do what you want ever in your own shops, but recommending a "potentially" risky procedure on a large forum like this is likely to influence some folks with less than 50 years of experience, .... just sayin' Ya'll get your 5 HP 12" Powermatic reved up and drop a chunk of plywood on the blade from a height of 1 foot and come back here and tell us what exactly happened. I've made my points and I'm through here. Carry on.


 Why don't you go drop a chunk of plywood on a 10" 2 hp saw and see want happens. I bet with either saw it will go flying across the room and if you were standing behind it certain body parts are going to be in excruciating pain. What does kickback have to do with reaching over the blade anyway?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I've tried to make those points...*



Rebelwork said:


> Woodnthings... why not just try and make a point and move on without getting silly at the end.



It's not getting silly, when you reach over the blade to pickup your workpiece and you lose your grasp... and it can and has happened ... and it falls onto the spinning blade and kicks back. Murphy's Law and the Law of Gravity are now in charge and bad things will happen, and that ain't "silly".



hwebb99 said:


> Why don't you go drop a chunk of plywood on a 10" 2 hp saw and see want happens. I bet with either saw it will go flying across the room and if you were standing behind it certain body parts are going to be in excruciating pain. What does kickback have to do with reaching over the blade anyway?


See the point I made above regarding kickback. There's more than one type, actually four types. The 2 HP saw will also hurt you, heck I've had a 1 HP Craftsman saw kickback and that hurt plenty.

Types of kickback:
1. dropping a workpiece from above on a spinning blade.

2. the workpiece closes behind the blade because there is no splitter or riving knife, pinches the back of the blade and it propelled forward toward the operator.

3. the workpiece loses it contact at the rear of the fence, rotates away, and is picked up by the blade's rotation and is propelled forward toward the operator.

4. The workpiece warps or expands as it's cut apart, makes greater contact with the rotating blade, wedging it between the blade and fence and is propelled toward the operator, a spear type kickback.


The top 3 are preventable using proper procedures and safety devices. No. 4 would be "unexpected", so body location is important, standing to the side of the workpiece being the safe place to stand. I've had all 4 types happen to me and fortunately nothing bad happened. Now, can I go back to the shop? :smile3:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You can wrap sentence around sentence and the long post comes out the same. Your way, my way, his way. The only way that counts is what makes you feel the most confident around the saw. The problem with hobby woodworkers and some future professionals is they don't know and spend most their time reading and watching videos from people who think they know but don't.

You can put charts up all day yet you nor anyone else will ever tell me how to use a table saw.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no one is trying ....*



Rebelwork said:


> You can put charts up all day yet you nor anyone else will ever tell me how to use a table saw.


No one is trying to tell you anything. I certainly wouldn't.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I break all the "rules". Reach over, cut with the blade tilted against the fence, don't use a push stick until the cut becomes a micro cut, don't have an off feed table, rip with a crosscut blade, never lower the blade when I'm finished, crosscut boards that are longer than they are wide, never use a splitter, never use a guard.

Just wanted to keep the thread going and fuel the fire already in progress.

Al B Thayer


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> You guys can do what you want ever in your own shops, but recommending a "potentially" risky procedure on a large forum like this is likely to influence some folks with less than 50 years of experience, .... just sayin'
> 
> 
> Ya'll get your 5 HP 12" Powermatic reved up and drop a chunk of plywood on the blade from a height of 1 foot and come back here and tell us what exactly happened.
> I've made my points and I'm through here. Carry on.


No professional shops that I know of personally and occasionally visit go anywhere remotely near your level of 'extreme' (or have anyone around that does) when it comes to table saw safety. This would include any and all 'small' shops that I know of personally. 




It would do you some good to get out and swing by one of your local cabinet shops one morning with a box of donuts and some coffee. I bet they give you a warm welcome and have no problem with you hanging out for a while to 'check things out'...


You might have 50 years of experience and 125,000 posts on the internet but you may end up being surprised by what you see. :yes:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> I break all the "rules". Reach over, cut with the blade tilted against the fence, don't use a push stick until the cut becomes a micro cut, don't have an off feed table, rip with a crosscut blade, never lower the blade when I'm finished, crosscut boards that are longer than they are wide, never use a splitter, never use a guard. Just wanted to keep the thread going and fuel the fire already in progress. Al B Thayer


 I put diesel in a weed sprayer to start brush piles.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you guys are missin the point*

I don't care what the pros do in their cabinet shops, been there done that, have a buddy who has a commercial door shop where I've helped out occasionally. There are no guards on the shapers or table saw or the 16" Porter jointer. and the drive belts are all exposed on the 20" planer. It's a one man shop and while he's missin' a few fingers he does all the work by himself .... mostly.

What I do care about is the advice that will get a newbie or inexperienced woodworker in trouble.... take off the blade guard, don't use a splitter, reach over the blade to gather up your cutoffs etc. Don't do as I do, do as I say sorta. You guys who do this for a living are at a different level than 90% of the members here, and are exempt from the safety rules by your own choosing. 

We have a thread here "Show us the damage" full of incidents by our members from tablesaw injuries, and routers and jointers which just shows to go Ya what can happen when we don't follow the "rules".

Where did tablesaw safety rules come from? I don't don't know for certain, but I'll bet a six pack on the notion they came from guys who screwed up, and lived to talk about it and didn't want others to repeat what they did wrong. That's where some of my suggestions come from, my personal experience, screwing up, getting bruised up and wanting to prevent others from repeating my mistakes. So, you pros can just ignore what you don't think applies. My 50 years of experience not withstanding, it is still relevant. Look in MY Photos if you think I don't or can't "walk the walk".

When I was an Instructor at a Big Ten University in the Art Department, I had about 20 young females in a Design class whose assignment it was to make wood sculptures out of large pieces of laminated beams which were gifts from a local company. None had any previous experience with power tools. We had a shop full of equipment and the ladies used all but the tablesaw.and jointer. The responsibility I had was overwhelming, but we got through it without incident save one young lady sanded her finger nail a bit too much on the belt sander. I come from a different place than most of you pros, but safety is still very important to me. The newbies here and even some of the regulars all benefit from reasonable discussions on safety. 

Ya'll have a great day!


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Here is a cabinet about 15 feet directly behind my table saw. Anyone want to guess how the latch got broken, handle broken, door dented and bent?






Yeah a board went flying at it at 40 mph.,


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## TerryQ (Apr 8, 2014)

I was watch Ellen's Design Challenge where designers design furniture, and with the help of a builder, build the designs in three days. Last episode I watched the experienced woodworkers appeared to struggle ripping thick hardwoods. One of the professionals launched a board across the room, just missing another person and leaving a big dent in the cabinet of the table saw he was working on. I was kind of surprised they showed it, but the show needed a little excitement.


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## mat 60 (Jul 9, 2012)

It must be a full moon again..:|


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

mat 60 said:


> It must be a full moon again..:|


 No, only 50 percent visible.


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> I don't care what the pros do in their cabinet shops, been there done that, have a buddy who has a commercial door shop where I've helped out occasionally. There are no guards on the shapers or table saw or the 16" Porter jointer. and the drive belts are all exposed on the 20" planer. It's a one man shop and while he's missin' a few fingers he does all the work by himself .... mostly.
> 
> What I do care about is the advice that will get a newbie or inexperienced woodworker in trouble.... take off the blade guard, don't use a splitter, reach over the blade to gather up your cutoffs etc. Don't do as I do, do as I say sorta. You guys who do this for a living are at a different level than 90% of the members here, and are exempt from the safety rules by your own choosing.
> 
> ...



Sometimes less is more. 
"Safety rules are written in blood", is the message, correct?


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> . So, you pros can just ignore what you don't think applies. My 50 years of experience not withstanding, it is still relevant. Look in MY Photos if you think I don't or can't "walk the walk".


 
I have no need to go digging through your special 'Photos' page or any of that. All I have to do is look at the last project you did to learn everything I need to 'know' about your 50 years of 'experience'.


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/building-shelves-my-methods-123314/



> Sometimes you just don't think things through from the start, especially when it ain't your forte. Apparently, well actually I got my center divider in place and glued in and it wasn't exactly vertical. That meant each shelf had to be cut on a slight angle for a tight fit.


From my perspective - If you can't build a cabinet that simple without jacking it up like you did - you very likely ought not be giving anyone advice as to how to go about cutting that sort of stuff out either. 


I do NOT have 50 years of 'experience' but 'if' I did and I made that kind of mess out of a cabinet that simple - I would be keeping the 50 years experience thing to myself and not be bragging about it. 

FWIW - A 'professional' would have stopped once he realized the mistake and replaced / corrected the one bad part before continuing on. He would NOT have cut all the other pieces 'wonky' to 'fit' the first piece that he jacked up if he knew darn well that the first piece was jacked up...

You tried to save 5 minutes of repair by adding 30 minutes of wonky cuts??? 



Sharing this picture of yours from your thread mentioned above. This picture SCREAMS 50 years experience to me...


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

What is wrong with the picture? Just because he is old and can't remember what setting to use doesn't mean he doesn't have 50 years experience.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

hwebb99 said:


> What is wrong with the picture? Just because he is old and can't remember what setting to use doesn't mean he doesn't have 50 years experience.


Going to answer your question with a question...




How many nails you recon got shot through them there guns?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Going to answer your question with a question...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a question for you and many of the other "pros" that hang around here, how do you find the time?

I ask this because most Fridays after work all the guys in the complex my son has his shop meet up, contractors, cabinet makes, electricians, plumbers, mechanics a diverse group, mostly there to network. Whenever I mention an online forum the reply is "Wish I was retired like you and had time for that."


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Going to answer your question with a question...  How many nails you recon got shot through them there guns?


 I don't know his woodworking background. If he was only a hobbyist woodworker for 50 years, than not many. We also don't know how long he has had the guns. Probably not all 50 years.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*and you've never made a mistake?*

Ya know even a "pro" can make a mistake and how he goes about workin' around shows his talent or lack there of.

Now I ain't a "pro" and the divider was glued and nailed,so I would have had to destroy the whole unit to set it vertical... and that wasn't gonna happen. A good carpenter knows how to "work around" his mistakes and if I hadn't mentioned it you would never know. So you can just pay attention and you might learn something, unless of course, you never make mistakes. 

Quote:
FWIW - A 'professional' would have stopped once he realized the mistake and replaced / corrected the one bad part before continuing on. He would NOT have cut all the other pieces 'wonky' to 'fit' the first piece that he jacked up *if he knew darn well that the first piece was jacked up.*..

I didn't know it was jacked up until I set the shelves in and then it was too late. I said that I should have used the stop stick to line up the panel, but didn't and paid the price of bein' lazy. Ya know James, there was a time back when, that you couldn't say enough about how much you learned from me..... maybe you've forgotten all those compliments? How about just postin' up some positive comments instead of all the vitriol you been postin' lately? You're comin' across as kinda mean. 

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/added-some-new-tools-one-my-workbenches-62174/

Remember all those phone calls you made to me late at night ranting about this or that or what ever at work or on the forum while I listened patiently? What ever happened to that guy?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)




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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

What started as a harmless question ("why put fence on the right side ...") has degenerated into personal remarks. This is perhaps because there are some "know-it-alls" on this forum who want to get into needless arguments with others even on non-issues. I have myself experienced it. Perhaps some posters have too much time on their hands and enjoy needling others.:frown2:


It takes the fun out of such forums. Let us get back to useful discussions.:|


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Jig_saw said:


> What started as a harmless question ("why put fence on the right side ...") has degenerated into personal remarks. This is perhaps because there are some "know-it-alls" on this forum who want to get into needless arguments with others even on non-issues. I have myself experienced it. Perhaps some posters have too much time on their hands and enjoy needling others.:frown2:
> 
> 
> It takes the fun out of such forums. Let us get back to useful discussions.:|



You couldn't be more right. That's why I post very little here. 

Al


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

...............


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> Now I ain't a "pro" and the divider was glued and nailed,so I would have had to destroy the whole unit to set it vertical... and that wasn't gonna happen. *A* *good carpenter knows how to "work around" his mistakes* and if I hadn't mentioned it you would never know. *So you can just pay attention and you might learn something*, unless of course, you never make mistakes.
> 
> ?


I took these pics for you today to try and show you how I would have taken that glued and nailed plywood apart without ruining the parts.

You are free to draw your own conclusions if this would have worked for you or not...


The pencil here line is 'square' to the edge of the plywood and I did use glue, nailgun nails and a few screws.









Here it is after being shot and screwed together:









That is a well glued and wonky joint in my opinion... :thumbsup:

After the glue dried fairly well I set about taking it apart by first removing the screws and then cutting a very fine line along both sides of the board that was about to be removed. Could have used a razor but I used this chisel as it was nearby. All you really want to do is scribe the veneer enough to the point that when the wonky board comes out it does not take the 'good' veneer surrounding the area with it in case the glue bond is really strong. 










You want to find a good hard piece of scrap that will cover the entire length of the joint and have it tightly into that corner before you go to beating on things...

This piece of scrap is where the hammer blows will be landing (NOT on the bare plywood for obvious reasons). The bigger the hammer and the fewer the blows - The better the results will be in the end. 










The tiny bit left behind on this piece came from the wonky board but it will sand out and not be visible at all after the repair. The hard maple piece of scrap being used as a 'backer block' prevented the nailgun nails from ripping out the sides of the wonky board and leaving major damage. The nail gun nails just laid right over and did no real damage to either piece.









I could reuse all these pieces without anyone ever noticing a thing and the 'fix' took less than 5 minutes.

I was not in any way trying to be 'mean' to you before Bill. I was simply being very honest... I make no secret about the fact that I like you and have a lot of respect for you personally. 

With that now said, You really need to understand that simply 'having' a few tools in your basement for a really long time and only actually 'using' them on occasion does NOT by default make you any sort of 'expert' with them. 


Please lecture me some more about how to be a 'good carpenter', how to 'safely' use my tools with a bunch of additional accessories that *you* deem to be of 'critical' importance, and remind me about how many years of 'experience' that you have...

I got no problem with that. :no:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*nice photo explanation, but .....*

On my cabinet it was the center divider which was glued on both ends and all along the back AND brad nailed which sets the nails below the surface. There was just no way it was gonna come out, and I never really considered that as an option. It's easy to demo how you would remove one joint and if that's all it was I mighta' done that.

The other point is I didn't purposely but the thing together "wonky" I used a framing square to check my assembly, but even with that it was a degree or so out of whack. 

The mistaken concept you have about "having a few tools in your basement and using them occasionally" doesn't apply to me Bud. I have a 900 sq ft dedicated wood working shop with way more than a few tools. So I don't fit into that description. I asked you to check My Photos for examples of my work, but you refused so you wouldn't know the extent of my abilities. There's a zillion other photos I have not posted of other projects, from restoration of an old dresser, the design and building a 2 axis panel saw, to welding up a complete diamond plate bed for my son's C10 pickup. What you don't know, you shouldn't comment on ....


The comments you made about "lecturing you" about anything are also bogus. I haven't lectured anyone, just shown what I use in my shop, like the reworked splitter, featherboard, push stick and magnetic holddown. If "anyone" from a pro to a newbie, chooses to use those ideas, that's fine with me, if not "I have no problem with that" either. :smile3:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*more projects*

Garage addition included the setting of a 28 ft, 1500 lb I beam using "some tools I had in my basement" .... :smile3:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

To the OP

I would only be guessing but I'd say the fence is on the right due to most people being right handed. Back when they were invented they also may have only had motors that turned in one direction that were readily available. It's also my understanding that a left handed person is much more ambidextrous. And therefore able to make the cut right handed. 

Al


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

*Back When The World Was Sane*

Years ago in a sane world there was an accepted way of doing things efficiently and safely, this included the use of table saws.

These methods were published in books and magazines, if bad information was published it was a simple matter of identifying the author of the error and a correction was published, and in extreme cases the courts would become involved. Basically we had responsible journalism.

Today we have the internet, the old saying that "if you say something often enough it will come true" is now valid.

We can say these things because we are anonymous, no one is held accountable resulting in no responsibility to the public.

Quantity of information has trumped quality, hits on a web site or post counts in a forum are more important to the authors than good information. 

People don't read old information, and unfortunately since most of the good information has already been published all that is left is bad information.

So we end up with hair-brained methods of doing things, safe or not.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Exactly!*

We have the old "tried and true" methods and then there are all the other ones, not all of which are insane or unsafe, but may not be fully tested over time.

Then we have the differences in the way the "pros" do it and all the "others", not that the pros methods are the safest, they may not be .... or the "others" unsafe, they may or may NOT be also.

Then we have the forums like this, where all sides present their methods and that's where this thread got off the rails in my opinion. A "pro" says here's what I do, a craftsman say's here's my method and the newbie says "I read about this method". It soon becomes a war of methods and who's right or wrong or who has the most experience.

You don't have to have worked in a cabinet shop to have experience, in fact cabinet shops don't have a whole lot of variation in their methods, because they use those that work best for that shop and for those people. Building one off furniture is not the same as building cabinets by the dozen. Building entertainment centers and built ins combines a lot of the both types skills. Making commercial office furniture ... 12 ft conference tables and 20 ft long bars is a skill set all unto itself and usually only the pros get those contracts

To me it doesn't matter where or how you got your "experience", it just matters how good the result is when you post it up here for all to see or critique. It even helps to point out the flaws, explain why they happened so others can learn from the mistakes that were made. It also helps to show how the mistakes were corrected for others to benefit as well.

I was so passionate about woodworking I used my High School graduation gift money to purchase my first Craftsman 10" 1 HP tablesaw in 1960 and I decked it out with side extensions and other accessories. I used that saw for 45 years or so and I eventually parted it out. That doesn't make me a pro or an expert, but I do have a lot of experience using a table saw all those years. I don't use the same methods I did years ago, I'm a whole lot more safety conscious these days. I know what can happen when things go South because I've experienced it..... kick backs of all types and binding blades, and pieces that drop off the outfeed end causing damage... etc., but that's just my experience. So I pass along my suggestions and tips for those who are interested and for who aren't please walk on by and have a great day. :smile3:


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## Keithport (Feb 14, 2016)

I have no problem reaching over the blade to grab my work....except when the blade is turning. Waiting for the blade to stop before grabbing your work is a safer practice. Some might see that as being too cautious. I don't. YMMV


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

*Left of blade, right of blade.*

How many of you have run wood diagonally across a blade. I did it once when I was 17 making some walnut molding for a clock I was making. Didn't think I was ever going to get the saw marks sanded out but it got the job done.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> We have the old "tried and true" methods and then there are all the other ones, not all of which are insane or unsafe, but may not be fully tested over time.
> 
> Then we have the differences in the way the "pros" do it and all the "others", not that the pros methods are the safest, they may not be .... or the "others" unsafe, they may or may NOT be also.
> 
> ...


No you don't have work in a cabinet shop to have experience. But then there's the question of experience with what?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

As far as experience, if a person works in a lot of different shops, especially different types of woodworking they can gain a great deal of experience. Every different shop has different ways of doing things and if you change jobs a lot can use the best ideas of each of them.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's so easy ....*



Rebelwork said:


> No you don't have work in a cabinet shop to have experience. But then there's the question of experience with what?


The experience of not working in a cabinet shop. :surprise2:Experience doesn't necessarily mean working with wood exclusively.
I have drilled way more holes in metal than wood, unless you count sinking drywall screws or deck screws, then I've lost track. I've chainsawed a whole forest worth of trees and logs while heating my home with wood. What ever your experience is, it's yours and it doesn't matter what it is to me. You want to call yourself "experienced" fine, in what ever trades or vocations, it doesn't matter. We are NOT here to judge one another.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> The experience of not working in a cabinet shop. :surprise2:Experience doesn't necessarily mean working with wood exclusively.
> I have drilled way more holes in metal than wood, unless you count sinking drywall screws or deck screws, then I've lost track. I've chainsawed a whole forest worth of trees and logs while heating my home with wood. What ever your experience is, it's yours and it doesn't matter what it is to me. You want to call yourself "experienced" fine, in what ever trades or vocations, it doesn't matter. We are NOT here to judge one another.


The important thing is whether or not one is sharing whatever experience they have.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Exactly!*



FrankC said:


> The important thing is whether or not one is *sharing *whatever experience they have.



Isn't that why we are all here.....?:smile3: Wisdom is knowledge gained through experience. Why are there no "wise" 15 year olds, only wisearses .... just sayin'

One of finest woodworkers on this forum is Kenbo who is an electrican as far as I know, and I will wager he has never spent a day working in a cabinet shop... and doesn't make him any less a fantastic woodworker.


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

*this discussion reminds me*

This discussion reminds me of what my father told me around 1975. 
" the minute you think you have it figured out is the minute you fell behind." 
That was followed by that there is no end to knowledge and life is worth living if we constantly try to expand our knowledge base. Forums are just that an expanse of one's knowledge base. And the "old man" was correct, the minute you think you know it all is the minute you fall behind. 

Marty


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Ah, woodworking talk. Come to find out why people put the fence on the right side of a table saw rather than the left, stay for the pissing match over table saw safety! 

To the original topic, personally I think its ergonomics. For a right-handed person, its easier to feed the wood with the right hand while using the left to keep the work piece pressed against the fence. Now, admittedly for a leftie I'd imagine the exact opposite is true, but the people making the saws don't drill the holes thinking about lefties


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the original question was totally answered*

All the relevant arguments, pro and con and ergonomics were discussed on the first page and everything else that followed was personal attacks and irrelevant. 

The simple answer is put it on either side, but don't tip the blade into it. Press down and in toward the fence whether you are right or left handed no matter which side it's on to keep the work registered against the fence to avoid a kickback, just like any ripping operation.

Then it all started about what's safe and what is not, and off it went. :frown2:


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## DaileyR7 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thanks for the post. My google led me to this site and this topic. I think I'll set mine up on the left. I recently had an unfortunate caster issue that has me now rebuilding my fence. In the process I woke up thinking today that "could I just build it to the left?" and I think the answer is yes. I have 20" on either side of the blade so if I am doing an angled blade cut I can just as easily do it on the other side of the tilt. My set up has 53" of space on one side and 20" on the other. I think after reading this I'll put the 53" on the left side. Like most lefty's we live in a right-hand world so it has never really even been something, I have thought about. If I wasn't building the fence from scratch I'd probably never touch it but this could be fun and realistically easily changeable if I don't like it. This does put my dust collection on the better side now too.

Also since I am I am re-building that fence I may take it down to 50". I know I'll come across the one cut tomorrow at 51" but I never use it out that far and that 3 inches sticks out and is a hip killer. 

Looks like a good message board. I'll join and look around.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

This is just an observation: 

The fence on my table saw is to the right of the blade, but the fence on my bandsaw is to the left of the blade. I am used to it, and don't think about it. So far, I have not gotten the two of them mixed up.

Either tool allows me to reverse the fence position, but the maximum opening with the fence on the "wrong" side is smaller than the opening in the "standard" position.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The fence belongs on the side away from the tilt*



DaileyR7 said:


> Thanks for the post. My google led me to this site and this topic. I think I'll set mine up on the left. I recently had an unfortunate caster issue that has me now rebuilding my fence. In the process I woke up thinking today that "could I just build it to the left?" and I think the answer is yes. I have 20" on either side of the blade so if I am doing an angled blade cut I can just as easily do it on the other side of the tilt. My set up has 53" of space on one side and 20" on the other. I think after reading this I'll put the 53" on the left side. Like most lefty's we live in a right-hand world so it has never really even been something, I have thought about. If I wasn't building the fence from scratch I'd probably never touch it but this could be fun and realistically easily changeable if I don't like it. This does put my dust collection on the better side now too.
> 
> Also since I am I am re-building that fence I may take it down to 50". I know I'll come across the one cut tomorrow at 51" but I never use it out that far and that 3 inches sticks out and is a hip killer.
> 
> Looks like a good message board. I'll join and look around.



Table saws tilt the blade either to the left or to the right. Right tilt saws have all but gone away on newer models. Left tilt saws are now "standard" so the fence goes on the right side of the blade, away from the tilt. This is a safety issue! :surprise2:

The workpiece or cutoff piece should NEVER be trapped between the tilted blade and the fence. It should always be allowed to "float" freely. 

The left tilt saws were a result of most operators being right handed, so when they were feeding the workpiece they used their right hand to guide the work and hooked their thumb over the edge to press it diagonally in towards the fence to prevent kickbacks. Kickbacks occurred when the work was allowed to moved away from the fence behind the blade, rolled up onto the blade and shot back at the operator. Splitters largely prevented this danger because the workpiece couldn't really move off the fence, the "safety" issue.

So, the ergonomics played a role, right hand vs left hand and the physics of the cutting operation was also important. Keep the workpiece parallel to the fence at all times or it will kickback. Do not trap the work between the fence and the spinning blade or it will kickback.


What ever you do,follow those rules and you will be safe. :vs_OMG:


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

FrankC said:


> The important thing is whether or not one is sharing whatever experience they have.


 I agree, for 25 years I cut and split 10 cords of wood to heat the house and hot water.
Added a two story addition to the house, then gutting the existing plaster and lathe in the whole house, adding insulation and sheet rock.
I removed a 40 year oil furnace and installed a modern one.
Every thing is new at some time.


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## Ranger652 (Jun 9, 2020)

The bigger question is:
If I place the fence on the right side of the table saw and reach over the running blade to retrieve a cut piece of wood that is wider between the fence and blade than it is deeper from the front of the blade to the rear while wearing oven gloves; should I use a plow or spade anchor if my boat is in 60' of water in a kelp bed? If I go with the plow can I store my ammunition with the firearm if they are in the anchor locker? Should I eat my pie and ice cream with a spoon or a fork? With my left or right hand if I don't stand directly behind the bowl?

Use your tools however you damn please as long as you don't endanger anyone else. You will judge your intelligence after your experience.

Good morning from Kalifornia


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Yamster, there is lots of good safety information out there, it never hurts any of us to review once in a while.

Blades should NEVER be tilted toward the fence for obvious reasons. This is something I've never understood and why I bought a left tilt saw.

Its a balance between operating a machine within its capabilities, experience, and always aware of what it can do to you.


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## bargoon (Apr 20, 2016)

Jig_saw said:


> Because most people are right handed and it is easier to guide the workpiece against the fence with the right hand.:wink2:
> 
> 
> Be safe!


Think its just what you're used to. I'm left handed and have always used the right side buy find whenever I do have to use the left side of the blade it seems awkward. I'm also a big believer of featherboards and push sticks.


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## DaileyR7 (Aug 25, 2020)

I am going to move the cast iron to the left. Set up my Kreg ACS table to the right and run the fence pretty much equal distance both directions. Best of all worlds. Angle iron and 2x3 iron fences allow you to just get another piece to set up as you please.


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