# Wiping stain over dye. Seal the dye?



## skunkbad (Aug 15, 2015)

I'd like to use Transtint dye under some Old Masters wiping stain for a project I am working on. I plan to desolve the Transtint dye in denatured alcohol.

The Old Master wiping stain is an oil based stain. If possible, I'd like to apply it right over the dye, but I don't know if that will cause the dye to move around or have some sort of problem.

I've heard that I can use a dewaxed shellac as a sealer. So I bought some garnet shellac flakes, and would desolve them in denatured alcohol if I need a sealer. 

Do I need a sealer for the dye, before applying the wiping stain? If I do, would a half pound cut of my shellac be good enough? I guess I'm just worried that the wiping stain wouldn't stain very well after the shellac is applied. I'm pretty confused, and finishing wood projects is very new to me.

Thanks for you help.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Using the dye like that would be alright. A lot of furniture companies will stain their furniture with a dye first to get the majority of the color and then use some oil stain over the top. Using the oil stain over the top gives the wood some warmth. Otherwise it would take on a plastic look. Your biggest problem will be the shellac unless you spray it. If you plan to brush or wipe the shellac it will remove some of the dye. You are right the shellac would prevent the wood from accepting the oil stain.


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## skunkbad (Aug 15, 2015)

Steve, thanks for your reply. I just did a search for "stain over shellac" and found a discussion that suggests that it's a bad idea for a couple of reasons. I think I'll just be staining directly over the dyed wood. I plan to stain with a Red Mohagany mixed with Medium Brown transtint, and then stain with Cedar colored wiping stain. I'll do a test of course. I'm thinking that perhaps leaving out the Medium Brown transtint may look better, but won't know until I try.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

skunkbad said:


> Steve, thanks for your reply. I just did a search for "stain over shellac" and found a discussion that suggests that it's a bad idea for a couple of reasons. I think I'll just be staining directly over the dyed wood. I plan to stain with a Red Mohagany mixed with Medium Brown transtint, and then stain with Cedar colored wiping stain. I'll do a test of course. I'm thinking that perhaps leaving out the Medium Brown transtint may look better, but won't know until I try.


Its better to use a vinyl sealer or a washcoat over a dye stain before applying an oil based wipe stain. You can apply the oil based wipe stain straight over the dye stain, just make sure you allow the dye stain to fully dry before applying the oil stain. Applying a barrier coat between the dye stain and oil stain will not allow the oil stain to penetrate into the wood as much. Try the 2 techniques on a scrap piece of wood and see which one you like the best.

Applying a barrier coat will give you more depth of color.


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## skunkbad (Aug 15, 2015)

Well, I did some tests today. I had a piece of baltic birch plywood, and a piece of poplar, which are the two woods that will be used for this piece. It seems that using the dye is having a really bad effect on the poplar. Where the wood is greenish it comes out OK, but where the wood is white it blotches so bad I will have to come up with something else. 

Actually, after applying two coats of the stain to the un-dyed wood, it looks pretty good all by itself. I think if I go for one or two more coats of stain it will be a pretty deep color. I don't think it's ever going to match the furniture that I'm trying to match, but that furniture is from Ethan Allen, and this is my first time every trying to do something like this.

I think the thing that would be really hard for me to match is that the Ethan Allen furniture has dark highlights. That's the only way I can describe it. Overall the stain is a dark red cedar color, but near the edges the color gets so dark it's almost black. Is there an easy way to achieve this kind of highlighting?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

skunkbad said:


> Well, I did some tests today. I had a piece of baltic birch plywood, and a piece of poplar, which are the two woods that will be used for this piece. It seems that using the dye is having a really bad effect on the poplar. Where the wood is greenish it comes out OK, but where the wood is white it blotches so bad I will have to come up with something else.
> 
> Actually, after applying two coats of the stain to the un-dyed wood, it looks pretty good all by itself. I think if I go for one or two more coats of stain it will be a pretty deep color. I don't think it's ever going to match the furniture that I'm trying to match, but that furniture is from Ethan Allen, and this is my first time every trying to do something like this.
> 
> I think the thing that would be really hard for me to match is that the Ethan Allen furniture has dark highlights. That's the only way I can describe it. Overall the stain is a dark red cedar color, but near the edges the color gets so dark it's almost black. Is there an easy way to achieve this kind of highlighting?


Matching a color is difficult but not impossible. If you have the patience and keep tinkering with the color you could match it. The hard part in your case is you don't have the variety of supplies to tinker with. It would mean multiple trips to the store for supplies.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

skunkbad said:


> I think the thing that would be really hard for me to match is that the Ethan Allen furniture has dark highlights. That's the only way I can describe it. Overall the stain is a dark red cedar color, but near the edges the color gets so dark it's almost black. Is there an easy way to achieve this kind of highlighting?


Poplar will blotch. If you gonna use a dye stain, you will need to apply a wood conditioner first before applying the dye stain.

Highlights.........there are many ways to do that. You can apply a dye stain then apply a wipe stain or a glaze over the dye stain. Wipe off the wipe stain or glaze, then take a red scotchbrite and wipe off certain areas that you want to be lighter. Most of the time this is done by "highlighting" areas near the grain. Highlighting gives the wood contrast. You can do this by highlighting the wipe stain without a dye stain, but a dye stain under the wipe stain will look better and give you more depth of color. 

The dark areas you are talking about near the edge is called "dry brushing" More than likely the area you are talking about is done with either a van **** brown or a black glaze. You simply take a chip brush and dip the very end of the brush in the glaze, then dab it into a clean rag leaving very little glaze on the brush. Then simply blot the brush around the edges and that will give you the effect you are seeing. It may take some practice since you have never tried it before.

Color matching takes time. In order to do it correctly, you need to know the color wheel.....and have some patience.....its all about trial and error.....and alot of test pieces.


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