# pocket srews ??



## Ed'sGarage (Aug 16, 2007)

This month's "wood Mag" has a TV cabinet for the wall. The interesting thing is the rail and stile doors are made with pocket screw joinery rather than the conventional router bit joinery. I'm in the process of making some cabinets for my study and was going to do it conventially. Pocket screws would save much time. Has anyone seen the plans and does anyone have an opinion( I know you do!)?


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## Johnny Yuma (Jul 14, 2009)

I do it all the time.
I run my boards through the router table to get the inside edge detail I want, as well as a dado for the panel. Then cut my rails and stiles to length, mitered. Then I drill pockets holes. One hole perpendicular to each miter (on each end of each board).
Makes for a strong joint, and you don't have to wait for glue to set.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Ed,
I have done doors like that also. Usually when I am doing a flat panel, shaker style door. If it is a raised panel with the traditional coped rails and styles, then I glue them. Pocket screws are pretty amazing. It seems like people are constantly coming up with new uses for them. 
Mike Hawkins


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Ed,
My philosophy is, If the pocket screw joinery would be detectable in the piece, I'll use M&T with dowels. If the pocket screw joinery would be not viewable them I may use pocket screws.

For my own use or family use, pocket screws do not exist.

In cabinet doors I would never use a pocket screw even with plugs, however using pocket screws in the face frame would be OK.


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## Rick C. (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed,
I've only been using pocket screws for a short time but on one oak face frame I had two splits and one stripped out screw hole, had to redo the thing.Then when attaching to the carcass it split again.The sales rep told me the screws were self drilling,I used the fine thread 11/4"screws he said to use.This piece is for a paying customer,too many costly delays.The places where they worked they worked well.I like the idea but I think if the screws were truly self drilling the wood would not have split.IMO


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

*My opinion which is gospel*

only to ME is, pocket screws should never be visible in use. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the little things in their place. In doors, never.
Rick C, I must say, that having used fine thread 1.25" pocket screws by the thousands, working almost exclusively with Red Oak and Walnut, I have never had a split or a stripped hole. Perhaps you are being supplied with the wrong screws? I get mine in bulk packs from Mcfeeleys.

Ed


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## Rick C. (Dec 17, 2008)

got mine from Rockler,Kreg screws.They do look to be self drilling.
Must be operator error.


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## april-1986 (Dec 10, 2009)

I have built entire Kitchens with Ply and pocket screws for the carcasses and it is not only good enough but as good as the highest end cabinets you could buy.

Use T&G on certain places in the carcass construction and add all wood doors and you will have the best cabinets made. Using pocket screws is made to order for ply to ply and especially ply to hardwood connections. 

Pocket screws on MDF is really not good, but I have seen it done. I for one have used MDF for the panels on certain doors and thick MDF for router tables and lots of jigs, but I do not like MDF for the stiles, rails or any part of the carcass on cabinets. 

I know some will jump in and say yes you can use it for these things and you can, but I don't and won't. I have used MDF long enough to know, whatever any tells me, that MDF moves and it moves more than ply. I have all MDF crown in my bedroom and every year the seams shrink and leave a gap and in the summer get tight as a drum. Just one instance of hundreds where I have seen the MDF move. And water and MDF forget it.

Stick to plywood and you are fine, but for a router table top I would consider going with MDF. It's awfully smooth and really simple to add stock laminate. Add a solid wood edge(apron) around the MDF for an excellent router table.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

My opinion... pocket screws and biscuits = junk joinery. I wouldn't use them on anything...at all.

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as traditional joinery, and I believe in it. I prefer no mechanical fasteners if I can help it. It's all about the craft and craftsmanship, not how fast and easy work is done.


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

rrich said:


> Ed,
> My philosophy is, If the pocket screw joinery would be detectable in the piece, I'll use M&T with dowels. If the pocket screw joinery would be not viewable them I may use pocket screws.
> 
> For my own use or family use, pocket screws do not exist.
> ...


I'll second that!:smile:


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## mwhafner (Jan 16, 2009)

> My opinion... pocket screws and biscuits = junk joinery. I wouldn't use them on anything...at all.


Too "out of school" for me. BTW, I have refinished several tables build in the 1890's and early 1900's that used pocket screws in their construction. Not 1700 old school, but the Industrial Revolution create some benefits. 

I love traditional joinery, but why not take advantage of the benefits of modern technology (when it makes sense). There is nothing more beautiful than a well-executed, hand-cut dovetail; but that isn't much more than your "junk joinery" without modern PVA glues. 

As Johnny Yuma and firehawkmph indicated, for the proper style door, pocket screws are great. 

Biscuits are great as an alignment/joinery tool. Excellent for face-frame to carcass applications. 



> Ed,
> I've only been using pocket screws for a short time but on one oak face frame I had two splits and one stripped out screw hole, had to redo the thing.Then when attaching to the carcass it split again.The sales rep told me the screws were self drilling,I used the fine thread 11/4"screws he said to use.This piece is for a paying customer,too many costly delays.The places where they worked they worked well.I like the idea but I think if the screws were truly self drilling the wood would not have split.IMO


Did you check the moisture content of the wood? Red oak, in particular, gets almost brittle if too dry.


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## Johnny Yuma (Jul 14, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> My opinion... pocket screws and biscuits = junk joinery. I wouldn't use them on anything...at all.
> 
> Believe it or not, there is such a thing as traditional joinery, and I believe in it. I prefer no mechanical fasteners if I can help it. It's all about the craft and craftsmanship, not how fast and easy work is done.
> 
> ...


Come on. Not everything made out of wood is 'fine furniture'!

I build wainscoting for peoples homes all the time. I can't think of a better way to secure my stile and rails.
The backside is against the wall, so you will never see the screws, and I don't know of anything that will keep my joints tighter over time.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Johnny Yuma said:


> The backside is against the wall, so you will never see the screws,


Precisely the point.

You are using pocket screws how they were intended to be used.


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

*Love em*

I have two pocket hole jigs. The CMT and the Kreg. They work great for face frames and joining stuff together where the pockets do not show.
The Kreg system as a video that shows how to do trim and cabinetry using their system. Check with Rockler or Woodcraft.


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## Jacktoo (Oct 8, 2009)

Cabinetman, What kind of traditional joints are you referring to? Have you had problems with pocket screws or biscuits that we should be aware of? I've used pocket screws for 17 years and have never had a failure. I also use festool domino's and have been very impressed so far.


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## Burnt_Blade (Dec 26, 2009)

I have a Popular Woodworking edition of Pocket Hole Drilling Jig Project Book, and there is some really cool projects covered in it. You can actually make some really cool looking stuff even with the pocket holes exposed..with contrasting plugs etc.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Use the best jointing method for the job in hand. High class, money no object, then traditional joints. Bread and butter joinery where time is most expensive item, pocket holes. 
For the purist, then no TS, jointer or planer. All by hand, but only the wealthy can afford. If you have a living to make, then supply what the market demands at the price they will pay. No good making a Rolls Royce, when what was required was a Ford.
I was in marketing for 30 years and we said customer can have anything they want, as long as they pay for it. If you cannot make an item for a customer at a price they are willing to pay, get out of that market. 
Production wants top quality, sales man wants low prices, marketing understands what the customer wants.
johnep


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## Burnt_Blade (Dec 26, 2009)

johnep said:


> Use the best jointing method for the job in hand. High class, money no object, then traditional joints. Bread and butter joinery where time is most expensive item, pocket holes.
> For the purist, then no TS, jointer or planer. All by hand, but only the wealthy can afford. If you have a living to make, then supply what the market demands at the price they will pay. No good making a Rolls Royce, when what was required was a Ford.
> I was in marketing for 30 years and we said customer can have anything they want, as long as they pay for it. If you cannot make an item for a customer at a price they are willing to pay, get out of that market.
> Production wants top quality, sales man wants low prices, marketing understands what the customer wants.
> johnep


That must be the most frustrating thing when a person who knows you like to do woodworking and ask you if you could make them something. 95% of people are not willing to pay for the amount of work that goes into making it. Not when they see some purely functional piece at Walmart etc.


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

*Frustrating.*



Burnt_Blade said:


> That must be the most frustrating thing when a person who knows you like to do woodworking and ask you if you could make them something. 95% of people are not willing to pay for the amount of work that goes into making it. Not when they see some purely functional piece at Walmart etc.


It is frustrating when folks want to go cheap on custom made furniture and cabinetry.
I have made a few things for folks over the years. Mostly as gifts.
The one thing I had to make cheap was because the person wanting it did not like his wife enough to have me use higher durable lumber for the application. Ticked me off, but I built it anyway.
Let's say that now he has an ex-wife because of his cheapness. :laughing:

I usually don't get involved with items that are going to be a problem like that anymore unless the person actually can not afford the finer woods.


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## jlord (Feb 1, 2010)

Ed'sGarage said:


> This month's "wood Mag" has a TV cabinet for the wall. The interesting thing is the rail and stile doors are made with pocket screw joinery rather than the conventional router bit joinery. I'm in the process of making some cabinets for my study and was going to do it conventially. Pocket screws would save much time. Has anyone seen the plans and does anyone have an opinion( I know you do!)?


Hi, I don't like pocket screws on cabinet doors. I would use the rail & stile bits & if you do not want to wait for glue to dry in the camps you could shoot some shallow pins into the frame from the rear so they do not show from the front.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

James,
A really good use for those 5/8" pins!


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## seanmacdougal (Feb 5, 2010)

I would not use pocket screws on a door for the simple reason that they'll be visible when opened, plugged or not. I'm in the traditional camp on doors, and it was a long time before I'd even think about fasteners for face frames for built-ins etc. I came around because I ran into a guy who'd had a cabinet fall off the back of his truck and the carcase broke, but the pocket screwed face frame didn't. I got the gear and did some experiments. Two pocket screws in two pieces of poplar glued and joined at right angles, and left for ten minutes. The joint could not be broken. Period. The wood broke all around the joints, but not the joints. Demonstrated numerous times to unbelievers.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

nevermind


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