# Lacquer and sealer



## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

OK the facts, I am making my cabinet husks from Baltic Birch ply, face frames from Oklahoma Black walnut, and the panells in the door from quilted Bubbinga. I am planning on Sherwin-williams vinyl sealer and lacquer. But I am open for sugestions. If anyone has experiance with there product I would appreciat any advise on specific lacquers/sealers. I have an HVLP gun I will be sprayig with.

The only reason for S.W. brand is they are local and the other products I have bought from them have been quality. 

Thanks for any input.
Casey


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

In my opinion Sherwin Williams makes the best Nitrocellulose Lacquer available. I get it from my local SW for 40.99$ a gallon. Big name guitar manufacturers and custom builders use Sherwin Williams for there high end stuff. I haven't used the sealer though, after my supply of sealer runs out, I am going to try it though.










It sprays and sands brilliantly. I use a gravity fed gun, and thin more than most people. Takes more coats, but the finished product is smoother. 

1. Sand to 220
2.Spray Sanding Sealer, let dry
3. Sand flat witgh 220
4. Spray sanding sealer, let dry
5. Smooth with Steel wool
6. Apply grain filler
7. Spray sanding sealer again and smooth with steel wool, let dry. 
8. Spray Lacquer, dry for 30 minutes, recoat. I ussually do at least 8 coats. If needed, I will sand any little bumpies or anything between coats, but since using SW I don't need to do that. 
9. Wet sand 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 
10. 3m rubbing compound
11. Swirl Remover
12. Glaze
13. Use finish as a mirror.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Nitro is nasty stuff, so make sure to use a respirator. And its flammable as hell when sprayed in the air, so make sure there no furnace or sparking devices around. 

Spray on a nice pretty day, Nitro hates moisture.


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*Another Question*

step 6 grain filler?
I am not familiar with that step, everything else makes perfect sense to me but I have never ran across "grain filler" what is it? I am assuming it is different from sanding sealer.

Thanks again for your advise.
C


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

Colt W. Knight said:


> Nitro is nasty stuff, so make sure to use a respirator. And its flammable as hell when sprayed in the air, so make sure there no furnace or sparking devices around.
> 
> Spray on a nice pretty day, Nitro hates moisture.


I will thanks, as an x-smoker, last thing Ineed is to coat my lungs in lacquer.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Sorry, I should have mentioned that is what I do when I finish my guitars. When I finish my guitars I want a finish that looks like glass on top of the wood. Grain filler fills the pores in the grain and gives you a perfectly flat surface to spray lacquer on. That way, when I wet sand it looks like wet glass. Unlike wood filler, grainfiller sands extremely well and doesn't shrink later. 

On furniture you could avoid the whole grainfilling and wet sanding. Just buff the lacquer after its dried. Drying Nitro takes longer than you would expect too, its needs to sit unmolested for 2 weeks in arid weather and nearly a month in humid weather if you plan to wet sand. If you don't, the finish will sink into the grain months later. This is a cool effect to use sometimes, but not if you want it perfectly flat like glass.


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## jraksdhs (Oct 19, 2008)

*Ml campbell*

When I first started spraying cabinets I went to SW and got a gallon of their CAB lacquer, and that was after I had to explain what lacquer was to the lady behind the counter.(hint hint) I got it home, sprayed some stained samples that had been stained like a week earlier and the finish wouldn't stick. You could put blue painters tape on it and pull the finish right off. I took it back and told them it had probably been sitting on the shelf for years and that it was junk. She tried to get me to buy more, haha, yeah right. After that I found ML Campbell and never looked back. I use their Magnamax and Magnalac products. I have used their Polystar which is a waterborne "lacquer" Its good stuff but not on oak. Its seems to raise the grain way too much. IMO you should never use a pure nitro lacquer on furniture or cabinets. There isnt enough solids in it. Thats the reason you can spray 50 coats and have no problems. Oh and Ive been using ML campbell for about 7 years now, and Im only 27! Just my 2 cents!

jraks


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

jraksdhs said:


> When I first started spraying cabinets I went to SW and got a gallon of their CAB lacquer, and that was after I had to explain what lacquer was to the lady behind the counter.(hint hint) I got it home, sprayed some stained samples that had been stained like a week earlier and the finish wouldn't stick. You could put blue painters tape on it and pull the finish right off. I took it back and told them it had probably been sitting on the shelf for years and that it was junk. She tried to get me to buy more, haha, yeah right. After that I found ML Campbell and never looked back. I use their Magnamax and Magnalac products. I have used their Polystar which is a waterborne "lacquer" Its good stuff but not on oak. Its seems to raise the grain way too much. IMO you should never use a pure nitro lacquer on furniture or cabinets. There isnt enough solids in it. Thats the reason you can spray 50 coats and have no problems. Oh and Ive been using ML campbell for about 7 years now, and Im only 27! Just my 2 cents!
> 
> jraks


Im pretty sure that CAB SW lacquer is acrylic and not nitrocellulose. It requires a whole different approach than nitro. Different thinners and wash coats.

Environmental laws are making it tougher and more expensive to find real "Nitrocellulose" lacquer.

I had a very similiar problem finding the real Nitro from SW. The Sherwin Williams Auto paint store never heard of it, and tried to sell me acrlyic instead. The Home Paint store had to call the main office to research which product was the one I needed.


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## jraksdhs (Oct 19, 2008)

*umm....*

Colt, what you pictured isnt a nitro based lacquer. If you want a true nitro lacquer from SW them your gonna have to use their Sher-Wood LOVOC lacquer. A true nitro lacquer isnt really chemical or moisture resistant. More important regarding the OP's question is that you want to use a product formulated for kitchens and bath, something with a high solids content. 

jraks


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

I'll look into that stuff.


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## cusingeorge (Nov 17, 2007)

$41.00 bucks a gallon? They are charging you full retail.

SW's MR lacquer is just that, lacquer, nitrocellulose based and only says "moisture resistant" on the label.

All coatings are moisture resistant, up to a certain point.

I can get you a precat lacquer for half that price and beat their moisture resistance.

http://www.sherlink.com/sher-link/c...ssionid=qUdlB55nnLd91JHveEMjQQ**.ecommServer2


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

Sherwin Williams moisture resistant lacquer falls down in time. Water white does not stand up well in high moisture conditions like kitchens and baths. I'm using SW vinyl sealer under SW pre-catalized lacquer. It's a bit brittle and I've had some joints fracture after one heating season but it's my favorite. It doesn't fall down and it's chemical and water resistent sufficient for kitchen and bath use.

I had a whole set of birch cabinets fail using ML Campbell lacquer in nine months. The rep came out and looked at it and said "It's a cheap finish . . . what'd ya expect?". I refinished the job at my expense using Sherwin Williams clear coats with good success. I've never bought MLC top coats again and I never will. I have used some of their NGR stains and their lacquer stains but I put it under Sherwin Williams clear coats. I've never had a failure with Sherwin Williams lacquers.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Anyone used this before?
http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/us/eng/products/sherwood_hibild_lacquer/


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

Colt W. Knight said:


> Anyone used this before?
> http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/us/eng/products/sherwood_hibild_lacquer/



It's 22% solids by weight. To me, that means heated airless spraying only. If I have to thin it 25% there's no benefit (for me) to buying high solid lacquer.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*I use vinyl sealer and pre-cat lacquer*

That is what most manufacturers recommend for all around furniture and cabinet use including dining table tops. It is recommended by Sherwin Williams, ML Campbell, Gemini and Mohawk from the tech support people I have spoken to in these companies. 
Conversion Varnish is even better if you have climate/temperature control in winter. 
Apply one coat of vinyl sealer, 2 coats of Pre-cat Lacquer on top and that's it. All of this can be done in under an hour and your project is finished. 
If you are wanting a mirror finish, you can sand and buff it to a mirror finish 24 hours after your last coats. It might take as much as 8 coats and sanding between coats for a mirror finish before buffing. 
In most cases, a mirror finish is not required.
I charge $350 extra for a mirror finish on a table.

BTW. I use an HVLP gun - Earlex5000 and a small touch-up gun (Conventional) for tight areas like when painting stool and chair bottoms.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Stick to one manufacturer*

It is always best to stick with the same manufacturer for all of your chemical needs. If you have a problem, tech support wont be able to help you if another manufacturers product is mixed in with theirs. 

I have had very good success with Gemini products and their tech support is excellent. I purchase these finishing products through Woodfinishersdepot.com. They deliver and If I miss delivery day, they are less than 45 minutes away. They too have an excellent tech support.


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*Thanks for all the input!!!*

I went in and got the SW catalyzed vinyl sealer and the pre-cat lacquer. Whit the input I got here, and the specs I read off web. It should give me the protection I need for the kitchen Cabs. I am building the first round this week end. My biggest concern is how the vinyl sealer will look with the heavy grain of the quilted bubbinga. I will post a few pics when I get first set done.

Again thanks for all the advice.:thumbsup:
Casey


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## brendanrcarpenter (Apr 14, 2010)

Tony,

Any issues using vinyl sealer under waterborne lacquer?


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

brendanrcarpenter said:


> Tony,
> 
> Any issues using vinyl sealer under waterborne lacquer?


Sorry I cant help you there. I have never used waterborne finishes.
Check the Product Data Sheets/Product Information Sheets or call the tech support guys that sell the waterborne lacquer. 
Generally, Vinyl Sealer will stick to almost anything and almost anything will stick to it. It is a great sealer plus it adds additional moisture protection to your finish.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Walnut-nut said:


> ..... My biggest concern is how the vinyl sealer will look with the heavy grain of the quilted bubbinga.....
> Casey


Vinyl sealer is very clear and your bubbinga will look great.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Walnut-nut said:


> I will thanks, as an x-smoker, last thing Ineed is to coat my lungs in lacquer.



That's an excellent reason to use waterbased polyurethane. NC lacquer used to be my finish preference. I now use WB poly's. IMO they are as durable as lacquer without all the hassle.


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*up date:*

just giving an update: I love the vinyl sealer, sprays great and sanding was a dream, it really filled the pores nicely and left a great smooth finish, I will be spraying the lacquer next I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks
Casey


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Walnut-nut said:


> .... I will be spraying the lacquer next I will let you know how it goes. Thanks Casey


I assume you are using Pre-Cat lacquer. I generally use Gemini finishing products. Their Product Data Sheet states "*This product was designed to be used in conjunction with our standard lacquer topcoats for the purpose of product performance enhancement......".* This gives the impression that it can be used with standard Nitrocellulose lacquer, however, their techies don't recommend it be used with Nitro lacquer but instead, it was designed for catalyzed and pre-catalyzed lacquers. Products vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so if you are _*not*_ using Pre-Cat. contact tech support at SW.


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## cusingeorge (Nov 17, 2007)

Gemini's (or probably anyone else's) vinyl sealer can be used under precats, and some waterbornes (check with your manufacturer).

Waterbornes that are 100% acrylic or modified acrylic usually tolerate a solvent system underneath them pretty well. When you get into the waterborne urethanes and polyurethanes, you can see lifting issues.

I have recommended vinyl under water on a few occasions where they were having severe finishing issues and could not (or would not) take the time to properly prep the substrate.


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*first round done*

Shot the Lacquer last night. I am realy pleased with the results. Expecially after I thinned the lacquer at a 7/1 ratio. It really layed down nice after that. The look is as good as I hoped. I will get some pics and post them in the morning. thanks again for all the input.
Casey:thumbsup:


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*pictures*

Here is link to the cabinets
http://cloudsphotography.smugmug.com/Woodworking/kitcken-cabinets/12115099_hzqz5#861170286_gGMPJ


Any input?
Casey


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nice Dude*

If those are kitchen cabs then the counters better be made from recycled diamonds...very high end looking. More like jewelry boxes than kcabs!
Darn nice. :thumbsup: bill


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## Walnut-nut (Mar 15, 2010)

*Thanks*

thanks for taking a look at the cabinets. I posted some smaller versions in my profile album. I appreciate compliment. 

We have picked out "black galaxy" granit for the counter tops, nice deep black with tons of gold flecks. So it does kinda look like recycled diamonds.:laughing:

Thanks
Casey


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Nice Work*

The cabs look great. 
You will never pick up another paint brush again. After I mix in my thinner, I use a screwdriver and dip it in the can, pull it out and watch how fast it runs down the shaft. Not very scientific, but it works better for me than using their Zahn Cup or whatever comes with the gun's instructions.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Beautiful!


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

Colt W. Knight said:


> Sorry, I should have mentioned that is what I do when I finish my guitars. When I finish my guitars I want a finish that looks like glass on top of the wood. Grain filler fills the pores in the grain and gives you a perfectly flat surface to spray lacquer on. That way, when I wet sand it looks like wet glass. Unlike wood filler, grainfiller sands extremely well and doesn't shrink later.
> 
> On furniture you could avoid the whole grainfilling and wet sanding. Just buff the lacquer after its dried. Drying Nitro takes longer than you would expect too, its needs to sit unmolested for 2 weeks in arid weather and nearly a month in humid weather if you plan to wet sand. If you don't, the finish will sink into the grain months later. This is a cool effect to use sometimes, but not if you want it perfectly flat like glass.


I don't like lacquer The oldtimers used dewaxed shellac and varnish to get a water proof finish. It works for me.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

punkin611 said:


> I don't like lacquer The oldtimers used dewaxed shellac and varnish to get a water proof finish. It works for me.


Actually the oldtimers that used varnish sealed the wood with standard shellac. Back then it was common for homes to have solid knotty pine wall paneling and the shellac was a good barrier coat to stop some of the sap from the knots from ozzing. Varnish will adhere to standard shellac. It's polyurethane that needs the de-waxed shellac.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm an old timer and I used lacquer. :thumbsup:


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