# Building a Wooden Gate... Best Joinery technique?



## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Just like the title says, 
Im building a new wooden gate for my backyard to replace the old beat-down, sagging one that is currently there. I got some pretty nice "RedWood" from the Home Depot. Well, its nice compared to the garbage my local lumber place stocks. 
I plan on just making a simple frame with the 2x4's But.... I wanted to get a little creative. I could just do a lazy "Mitre" Joint on each of the 4 corners. Or maybe a "Half Lap" Joint. Or maybe even a "Mitred-Half Lap" Joint.. But, more so than having it look cool I want it to be the strongest overall connection I can make.
I would love to try some Japanese Joinery technique but only if it will be strong. Thats why I come here. What type of joint should I use? 
Thanks for any help you might give. Sorry if someone has asked this... But, I checked the search and I didnt see any topic about it..
Thanks,
Matt


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*corner joinery*

The miter joint is just about the most weak there is relying only on glue on partial end grain. Diagonal braces will help immensely in this case. Rectangular gates are the most weak of the geometric forms.
Triangles are the strongest. The joints in a rectangle carry all the forces and rely either on glue or fasteners.

A half lap will provide the greatest glue surface as well as a place for fasteners through both pieces. Clinched nails is one way I have made these gates with the half laps. Metal plates could be used to reinforce the corners, but they are not "natural" in the strictest sense. A torsion rod could be used across the corner, from the highest hinge to the lower corner.


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

woodnthings... thanks for replying. 
I was hoping to stay away from using a diagonal brace made up of a 2x4 because this is a gate that my 2 Labrador dogs get a chance to see a little bit of the outside neighborhood and bark at people walking by. So I was thinking about using those metal L- brackets that I have seen in all 4 corners to help keep the frame square along with also using a thinner (thinner than a 2x4) metal torsion rod to also help keep it all square. 
I was hoping to be able to try something a little bit fancy... well not too fancy... but more interesting than a 45% mitre. I have come across possibly using a "Mortise and Tenon" as the method for joining the frame together. While it may not have a cool Japanese Joinery method look, its supposed to be very strong. 
Also, is anyone familiar with the Redwood that Home Depot sells? They say its from Mendocino County California. It has a rough quality similar to Cedar but with a red color. Would I be crazy to sand the 2x4's and also the Dog-Ear'd Fence Pickets to a "Almost" smooth finish? Or would I be sanding off any mold/rot resistance or the woods supposed "Bug-Resistance" if I do this?


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## Brian(J) (Feb 22, 2016)

Checksum47 said:


> woodnthings... thanks for replying.
> I was hoping to stay away from using a diagonal brace made up of a 2x4 because this is a gate that my 2 Labrador dogs get a chance to see a little bit of the outside neighborhood and bark at people walking by.


The /12 lap without a diagonal would be pretty strong, the glue surface is good, and it picks up a lot of rigidity from the shoulders of the laps. I'd glue it together with Locktite PL premium 3X (not 8x) from a calk tube.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Matt,

I'm not online much these days so can't go into too great a detail as there just is too much to choose from for your project...Sorry for that. Plus without more info it would be difficult to really give detailed advice anyway...

I can say, great choice in joinery systems. The Chinese, Korean, and Japanese build all kinds of wonderful things from Castles and acient towers to gates and farm houses with all wood joinery modalities...

Sorry to counter some of what has been written thus far, but I make a living with "all wood" joinery systems, many (most actually) are based on Asian systems, and they don't just go into gates and furniture, but full sized architecture.

I seldom use oblique (aka diagonal) bracing, though in some limited applications this method has merit, often however obliques can act like a fulcrum to surrounding joinery wearing on it overtime creating stresses that are not often effectively repairable without rebuilding a section of the framing. When obliques can act in both compression and tension (most obliques only work in compression) they become struts which have more applicable application.

Metal has some application yet is not a requirement at all...but...that will depend greatly on your design and ability to execute proper joinery selection and execution of same... We build entire buildings without any metal (or very very little in most cases)...including doors which work with wooden hinges or pintle...Now that doesn't mean that metal doesn't have its place in some designs, yet we still tend to use traditional forged hinges and fasteners for the most part when we do use metal...

As to glue, that does have merit, but I still like "draw born" or wedge joints over adhesives...(or at least as a primary system) especially for exterior work whenever possible...

Good luck and I'll try to check in in a week or so with your project...Love to see pictures!!!


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Yes, Ill take some pics of the current shabby gate and some pics of the new material, and then either some sketches I've done on graph paper or if I can figure out Sketch-Up maybe a basic "sketch" of what Im trying to do...
I really would LOVE to use some Japanese style joinery techniques as long as they're strong (I'm sure they would be stronger than a mitre if I do them right). But on the other hand, right now I seem to be leaning towards some version of a Mortis and Tenon joint. There must be literally dozens of M&T versions. I also want to consider what joint will end up best for transferring the stress and weight of the gate down properly to that it ends up structurally balanced. Like Ive said, I know what I want this gate to do and what it needs to do... other than look pretty and protect my dogs from getting out and running across the street and getting hit by a car. I also want people when they come over to look at the gate and say, wow... thats some fancy gate. Who'd you hire to build that? And how much did it cost? Then I can say, oh that? I built that. 
Thanks...


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

in my opinion, mortise and tenon will be your strongest joint that will stay strong even with all of the seasonal weather it will see. I would run the tenons all the way through, and pin (dowel) them to secure them.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

Mortise and tenon would be my first choice. That's what I used on these. The first picture is from 2011. The second is a close-up of one of them today. They've held up well and I live in Wisconsin, where it's wet 11 months of the year. One thing I would try to do is to seal the end grain at the top of the stiles.


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## casey53 (Aug 6, 2017)

I would agree with checksum. The half lap joint has served me well on two 5' high oriental style gates. Be sure to use waterproof glue . Japanese outdoor carpentry uses a lot of hand scraping for the finished product. I think a tung-oil product is good, it never cracks but it needs to be refreshed every other year.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Because gates hang in all types of weather, I think doweled corners can add strength to either mortise and tenon or 1/2 lap joints. 
Thousands of privacy fence gates are quickly constructed every year using nothing but nails. Almost anything you add to the construction will be stronger than that.


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Sorry I havent been around for a couple of weeks. But... I will be having some time to get back to starting this project. Im not 100% sure if I can post pics yet considering that Im a new member... but I did get a start on trying to chisel some Mortise's. As I was cutting them I started to notice that this "Redwood" lumber I got from HomeDepot is very light, weight-wise, and also feels very dry. One of the 2x4's even had a nice 2 crack split for about 1 to 1 1/2 feet on the end that luckily I didnt need. So I cut it off and kept it instead of throwing it out or burning it. Well a few days later I picked it up and gave it a light easy toss over to the side of my garage and when it landed on the concrete it broke apart into 3 pieces. Like I said... I barely tossed it. 
And then when I was practicing cutting a Mortise I ended up breaking out a chunk on the very end. Once again I really didnt put hardly any pressure on it. This Redwood just "Feels" dry and brittle. So now Im a little afraid to do Mortise and Tenons. Im afraid that after I have it all done and together the gate is gonna get slammed shut by someone and chunks of wood are gonna come popping off.
Im really at a stand still...


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

I didn't respond to your first post because you already had the redwood.....

but as you can see, redwood is probably not the best choice for a gate. it is soft, it is not dense / hard, it is not particularly strong, does not hold screws well, has a lot of natural oils so it does not finish well and does not glue well. when bolted together it take very little stress for the heads of the bolts/washer to sink into the wood resulting in a loose joint.

on the other hand, it is quite weather resistant....

just to make things worse, the redwood of today is seriously less good than redwood from decades back - and big box stores are famous for selling the lowest cost/quality.... in the late 70's I built a bunch of redwood greenhouse benches - got heart redwood from a company that built watertowers/tanks. those benches continue to last forever.... I still have a couple leftover 2x4's - lately DW wanted an outside planter . . . the redwood I got from a local yard is junk compared to the old stuff.


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Sorry about not being around for a while again. But I have since tried to make some mortise and tenons and I have been having nightmares about the tenons popping off when the gate slams shut since the redwood 2x4's are so dried out and feel almost like Balsa wood. So I am thinking about using a different wood for the frame part. Something that looks as close to RedWood as possible but is Stronger. So what are my alternatives?


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

unless you're intending to re-oil / re-stain / re-treat-ever the redwood every year, it turns grey - just like most woods.
black locust, ipe, cypress are three I'd look at.

I've been building and re-building and re-re-building gates since 1974. they take a beating and don't keep ticking.
so I decided to make one that would not sag&drag so quick. my son does aluminum fab - otherwise this would co$t . . .


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

If you gave the overall dimensions of your planned gate I missed it. The size of the gate will have a significant bearing on the type of joinery used. Also whether or not the gate is decorative or just utilitarian is important.

For any but smaller, decorative gates I like to use metal plates at the corners. With these plates a plain old butt joint is sufficient.

On the hinge side, the hinge can also be used as a reinforcement.

George


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

TomCT2 Where is a decent place to get those types of wood? I am in Wisconsin in between Appleton and Green Bay and I don?t think there are any places around here that sell non standard wood?


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

I'm in PA - regrets no knowledge in your area.

https://www.yellowpages.com/appleton-wi/cypress-lumber-wholesale

turned up a list of places - you're looking for not-as-big-box-store type 
a couple phone calls should work - they likely know who does carry good stuff if they don't have what you're looking for.

I would highly recommend a place you can drive and pick up - meaning also you can check out the goods before buying....


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

I do have a WoodCrafts near me but if I'm not mistaken they only really carry very small pieces of exotic wood types. Nothing that Im gonna need to be at least 52-55 inches long...
Below I'll post a pic of a super simple drawing I whipped up in photoshop. This is the size I need the frame to be... at least the width because I need to span the gap in between my house and garage. The height of the 2x4 frame could be adjusted a little. And yes I did draw in the tenons that would end up inside the horizontal pieces just so you can see what Im planning...








And this is the Old and Saggy gate Im replacing... It's about 20 years old...


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Here is some pics of the hardware I will be using. Everything is from Home Depot and its Stainless Steel except the 2 plated Handles, but they are super heavy duty and solid. And the black thing is a Gate Stop Bracket...
*Handles and Hinges and Gate Stop *

*Corner Brackets* 

*Closing Latch*


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

It is easy to see why that gate sagged. What is the design of your planned new gate?

George


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## Checksum47 (Jul 18, 2017)

Originally I was gonna copy the old gate. So I bought Redwood because I heard that its supposed to be insect and mold/rot resistant naturally. And most of the research I did before buying the Redwood showed that it gets used in the higher end... more expensive Fences, Gates and Decks. Plus, I like the look and color of it... I didnt realize until I bought it that it would be so light and dried out. It's about half way to being like Balsa Wood. I suppose thats what I get for buying from Home Depot...
As for what plan or design do I planning on using? Like I said up above, I want to copy the old gate, but, make it straight, and add maybe 1/2 to 1 more Dog Ear panel so the gaps in between are just a little bit smaller. And before anyone says that my old gate isnt code or is bad because it has large spaces in between the Panels, I have it like that because my 2 Dogs like to look out and dream of chasing people that walk by. They are also the reason I need to replace it. Cause that old P.O.S. gate doesnt always swing or stay shut unless you manually latch it every time. And there have been 2-3 instances where someone was working in the garage or in the driveway and were going back and forth a lot and the 1 time they forgot to latch the gate shut the wind blew it open about 3-4 inches and my Male Lab saw his opportunity to make a jailbreak. And the first place he goes is sprinting across the street without looking to get to my neighbors yard because they have 2 females that they let out in their front yard. And I do live on a medium to high traffic street. So I need to get it done before the snow flies in Wisconsin...


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

well, you're fighting gravity here - and you're gonna' lose with that basic 4-side frame design.
it's just too wide to not sag under the weight / time.

some items to think about

hinges: look for "strap hinges" - you want to maximize the distant between holes. you've got a four foot lever up against a couple screws - screws / bolts spaced 2 inches apart are on the losing end of those physics.
thru bolt the hinges on both the post and the rails - 1/4-20 bolts with large diameter washers to spread the clamping force. 

gluing the slats on the rails to help with stiffness. locate the screws on the slats about 3/4 inch from the edge - again for max resistance to torque/sag. clamp when gluing for max contact.

the mortise&tenon and/or the metal brackets will add almost nothing to solving the issue.

no fancy woods required - ordinary 1x6 and 2x4 pressure treated should work just fine. the danger of all the gluing is sometimes a 2x4 will decide to go on a twisty vacation - it can wreck the whole scheme. 

consider a diagonal from the upper latch corner to the lower post corner above the hinge point. given the spacing of the slats, the dog(s) should not have any problem keeping track of who is on the street. bevel off the corner of the diagonal and use glued on stop blocks for max rigidity; glue & screw slats to diagonal.

if there's an absolute to work with gossomer wings, I'd recommend having some 1-1/2 angle iron (or aluminum - no rust) welded up and "bury" it in the 2x4 for hidden strength.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

As Tom says, that design with new wood will do exactly as the old gate has done.

Follow his suggestions and get a gate that will not sag.

George


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## Bellarosecabinets (Jan 28, 2017)

Home Depot has a gate kit for cheap


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