# Difference between quarter and rift sawn grain?



## jeffreythree

I got in a bit of an argument with a local sawyer over quarter and rift sawn grain direction. Can someone tell me the maximum angle of the grain in quartersawn? I thought it was somewhere in the neghborhood of 30-35 degrees but he said it is anything up to 45 degrees, everything beyond is flat, and rift is a myth. We had this bit of argument when I explained to him that I like 45 degree grain orientation for table legs so that the grain is almost identical in all 4 sides of the leg, instead of quarter on 2 sides and flat on 2. I get a lot of these legs from the areas quartersawing would generate small boards. I gave up when he got pissed off and explained he gave lectures on the subject and I, obviously, did not. By the way, he gives talks on flat sawing everything and then cutting out the quartersawn figure on the few boards that get it to sell as quartersawn.


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## joasis

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-quartersawn-wood.htm shows a great picture and description...you can copy it and show it to your sawyer.


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## pianoman

All I can say about quarter sawn is....usually the end grain is verticle. I`m not a sawyer...but I can identify the flec in the grain. I had the experience to duplicate a swell front drawer once and the customer was sure that I should buy quarter sawn lumber for the project. Well...I started expirencing around and found that what I think was flat or riff sawn lumber can be milled on the bandsaw in such a way to get the appearence of quarter sawn lumber. The drawer face was 7 and 1/4"s tall...I stack laminated 3/4" oak boards that were cut on the bandsaw following a pencil line that matched curved shape of the existing drawer shape. I flush trimed every piece that came off the bandsaw to one piece that matched the contour of the drawer...then glued them all together. There was very little sanding. It turned out to be a very good match and the customer paid more than I was asking. Rick


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## dirtclod

jeffreythree,
I usually stay out of these q-sawn debates for the very reason you experienced. There is considerable disagreement about what is q-sawn, rift, etc.. But the majority roughly agree on the definition. 

I may have to post more than once to get enough supporting info, but there is an official definition. The thing is I've got so many links stored in my favorites that it will take a while to sort it out. 

I looked at the link Joasis posted. WTF? Ok, if there were no preexisting definition in the way, then I would make one up that was nearly identical to Wisegeek's. [Hey, I liked it, but...] But that's so far off base that it compelled me to go through the effort to help clear this up. Please, for your own sanity, Wisegeek's definition should be stricten from the records. It's confusing enough as it is without having pieces of info like that posted. [I'm not directing this at you Joasis, Wisegeek is the one who trying to pass it off as correct.]

There is a company that builds a saw designed specifically to saw logs in such a way as Wisegeek's _*Riftsawn*_ illistration. But guess what? They call it quarter sawing and their marketing angle for selling their lumber and their patented saw actually calls the result quarter sawn. Hopefully I'll turn up a link for them in this process.

To get what is referred to as a quarter sawn board, it does not matter how the log is sawn, what matters is the angle of the resulting grain to the board face. You can through-and-through saw the log and get some q-sawn lumber. Same with splitting the lumber with a splitting fro, etc. http://www.allwoodwork.com/article/woodwork/plainorquartersawn.htm

http://www.frankmiller.com/default.asp?ID=210&SubID=52#What is Quatersawn

http://www.bchardwood.com/glossary_sawn.html

http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/Rulebook.pdf



> *After grade and thickness have been determined special **features, such as the amount of forty-five degree radial grain **for classification as quarter sawn lumber, and the amount of **figure as specified for figured woods and some quartered **woods, shall be considered.*


That's from the *NHLA Sales Code & Inspection Regulations.*

I've got more links with more complete definitions I'll try to post later*.*


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## jeffreythree

Thanks for the help guys. I love that link to the rulebook dirtclod. I know I am not an expert in sawing wood, not even an amateur really. All I know is, if I inquire on availability of 3"x3" or 2"x2" stock with 45 degree grain orientation, I do not want a lecture on the economics of flat sawing versus quarter sawing.


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## joasis

dirtclod: I am not vouching per say for the end of the debate, but in a few texts, the description of quartersawn is as the illustration shows.....now how it is milled to get there is another thing. Seems to be more debate on how then specifically what. I have never actually seen "riftsawn" lumber, as far as I know, but it would appear to be impossible to distinguish from QS, and make a lot of sawdust in the process. 

While I don't claim a billion board feet of milling experience, I have been involved in milling on and off for 30 years, and have never had anyone discuss the question above. What I can add that in a circle mill, it is a bear to do QS material, and I would not bother with riftsawn material. 

Here is another link: http://www.colgate.com/app/MurphyOilSoap/US/EN/AboutWood/WoodTypes/Cut.cwsp and this diagram is identical to one in my airframe book....when aircraft were made from dope and fabric on wooden frames, the lumber was always specified to be QS for the spars.


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## dirtclod

I saw the angles spcified in a federal government document I was reading yesterday. I've just got to remember what document it was. In the meantime this site has some defining angles. http://westcoastlands.net/SawmillCuttingMethods.html

Joasis, I admit I'm confused by some who are calling radial cutting of a log _*rift sawing*_. This adds to the confusion as the lumber is legally sold as quarter sawn and other while legally-defined rift sawn lumber does not come form what they are calling *rift sawing*. If you sawed per their *rift-sawing technique* and sold it as rift-sawn you couldn't get as much money out of it as you could selling it as quarter-sawn. 

Here's one of the link I was trying to find earlier: http://www.radialtimber.com/technology.html

I'll keep looking.


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## dirtclod

Here is an old definition that leaves out rift sawn.



> *Plainsawn and Quartersawn*
> Lumber can be cut from a log in two distinct ways: (a) tangential to the annual rings, producing flatsawn or plainsawn lumber in hardwoods and flatsawn or slash-grained lumber in softwoods, and( b) radially from the pith or parallel to the rays, producing quartersawn lumber in hardwoods and edgegrained or vertical-grained lumber in softwoods (Fig. 3–1). Quartersawn lumber is not usually cut strictly parallel with the rays. In plainsawn boards, the surfaces next to the edges are often far from tangential to the rings. In commercial practice, lumber with rings at angles of 45° to 90° to the wide surface is called quartersawn, and lumber with rings at angles of 0° to 45° to the wide surface is called plainsawn. Hardwood lumber in which annual rings form angles of 30° to 60° to the wide faces is sometimes called bastard sawn.​
> 
> For many purposes, either plainsawn or quartersawn lumber is satisfactory. Each type has certain advantages that can be important for a particular use. Some advantages of plainsawn and quartersawn lumber are given in Table 3–1. ​


 
Quoted from http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch03.pdf​ 
I'm still looking.​


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