# My Red Oak Is Bleeding After Staining?



## Systemlord

Happy New Year everyone, 

I bought some Red Oak to stain, after my first coat of Ebony (from Minwax) looked like it was about 95% dry. So I come back hours later to find these little black wet looking dots that I wiped hours earlier have returned after a few hours, why is my wood bleeding wet black dots? My temperature is above room temp, very strange!


Thank you for you advice,
Systemlord. :smile:


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## dodgeboy77

I had a similar experience just yesterday. I used Minwax red oak color oil-based stain on red oak. I wiped the wood dry but it continued to seep a little for a few hours. I just figured it was excess coming out of the pores and grain. Today it was fine and ready for a top coat.

Bill


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## Systemlord

dodgeboy77 said:


> I had a similar experience just yesterday. I used Minwax red oak color oil-based stain on red oak. I wiped the wood dry but it continued to seep a little for a few hours. I just figured it was excess coming out of the pores and grain. Today it was fine and ready for a top coat. Also
> 
> Bill


 
Very strange, does anyone have a reason behind this debacle? 

Another question regarding finishing wood with Park's Super Glaze, it says in the instructions to put a thin coat on first to seal the wood then poor final finish onto the wood. How is this 2 step application any different from just pooring one one final coat? It will still seal either way, right? Even the pictured instructions it shows them skipping the first step. another thing is in the pictures it looks like the product is almost yellow in color, will it dry crystal clear or have a yellow finish?



> *Parks Super Glaze *
> 
> Super Glaze Pour-On Finish and Preservative is an ultra-thick, high gloss, crystal clear epoxy that provides maximum durability. It is ideal as a water proof finish for table and bar tops.


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## Bob Willing

dodgeboy77 said:


> I had a similar experience just yesterday. I used Minwax red oak color oil-based stain on red oak. I wiped the wood dry but it continued to seep a little for a few hours. I just figured it was excess coming out of the pores and grain. Today it was fine and ready for a top coat.
> 
> Bill


I have the same problem . I used Minwax golden oak color oil-based stain on red oak. I try not to use as much stain when I brush it on. I go back after an hour and rewipe the area that bleeds. I think it is coming from the pours in the wood. After the first cost of poly the spots seem to go away. I have also tried to put a conditioner on before I stain and the bleeding is still there.


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## jaros bros.

The bleeding is caused by the gilsonite in the stain. It's a mineral used to darken stains and found in many of Minwax stains. The bleeding is worse when you flood the wood with too much stain, working in higher temps, and have large opened pored woods like oak. You'll just have to continue to wipe it down. It will eventually slow and the stain will dry.


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## Dusty82

I would caution you against putting any kind of top coat on your project until the stain stops bleeding. If you top coat it now, you're setting yourself up for a ruined finish due to "Gassing." Gassing occurs when the solvents in the stain (or in a sealer or other layer of finish) haven't dried completely before another layer of finish is applied (especially polyurethane.) As the solvents in the stain dry, they produce gasses that are trapped by the top coat. With nowhere to go, the gasses will seep under the layer of topcoat and appear as white blotches, patches, or sometimes even streaks or lines. Those white spots are areas where those gasses are actually lifting the finish away from the wood. As the project ages and the topcoat cures, those pockets of gas can cause the finish to become brittle over that spot, and eventually flake off. 

It's better to just keep wiping down that stain until it doesn't bleed anymore, then let it dry completely before you topcoat it. If that means waiting another 24 hours before applying your finish, so be it. It's better to be patient now than to have to strip the entire project later. Ask me how I know this... Grrrrrr...  :furious:  :furious:

This is why the directions on most finishes give you a "window" for applying another coat. If another coat is applied within a certain amount of time (20 minutes to 2 hours depending on the product,) the two coats will basically combine, allowing those gasses to escape with no problems. If another layer isn't applied within that time frame, the directions tell you to wait (usually 72 hours) to allow the coat to dry completely before applying another coat. This is done to prevent gassing.

You can usually seal a project while the stain is a bit damp if the entire project is still damp. It's when a stain is still bleeding in spots, but otherwise dry like your project is, that you'll have problems - that stain oozing out of your project now, and it's gasses, have to go somewhere. The stain will dry at a much slower rate than the top coat, and that sets up gassing.

There are some very experienced finishers on this forum that might be better at explaining this than I am, and they may tell me that I'm overly cautious, but I've had to strip a project or two because I got impatient - basically I didn't know what I was doing and rushed the job. Bottom line, I'd keep wiping it and let it dry before top coating it with anything.


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## Allthumbs27

I have also learned about this "bleeding" through experience. I did the same as the others and let it dry for a while longer than I have had to let other species of wood dry. My friend always gets mad at me for staining oak dark. He is more of a cover it in poly and let it be natural looking. Just be patient and your end result will come out greater than if you try to rush it.


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## Systemlord

Some very helpful tips, I waited 16 hours before applying the second coat of stain because here in California it's much warmer today and thought I should do it now. I just applied my second coat but didn't exactly put a thin coat on because it's nice and warm today, time to go wipe off the excess after 15 minutes. I just got back from wiping off the excess stain, I noticed that if I apply enough presure I can remove the darkened sticky layer, I decided wiped off the excess gently and hope the top sticky coat dries! I will wait some time before super glazing, a few days or even a week depending on temperatures! I'm not sure how much presure should be applied to remove the excess stain, any tips?



Some very helpful tips, thanks guys,
Systemlord. :smile:


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## Dusty82

What kind of stain are you using? A gel stain? Minwax Polyshades or something similar? Most stain is very thin like paint thinner, and doesn't get sticky. Ordinary stains just wipe on, then off after letting it set for a minute or two. If you're using Polyshades or something similar, it's meant to be a topcoat. Polyshades is a polyurethane that's tinted to make staining and finishing a one-step process (supposedly.) It's not meant to be wiped on then off...


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## Systemlord

I am using Minwax Wood Finish Ebony 2718 which is an oil based stain (bought at Home Depot), my Red Oak is well uniform black in color which is what I want, the grain still looks fantastic! It is not bleeding anymore like it was with the first coat, it fees dry to the touch except when I put my finger on the finished wood my finger print remains. 

Early in the day it was very sticky, now it is not sticky at all. I plan on a final third thin coat in two days after it has had time to dry outside in the warm temperatures we'll be having the next four days, my third coat is basicly going to be treating the area's where it's just a little lighter in color. There must be a limit to how much more stain this Red Oak wood can absorb! Please have a look at the pictures after the first coat and after the second coat!

Tips and questions needed,

1. How much more stain can my piece of Red Oak absorb? 

2. What's the longest time I should leave the wood stain on for before wiping the excess off? The instructions say 5-15 minuted, but then states the longer you leave it on the darker it will be. Any thoughts?

Thank you all for your help,
Systemlord. :smile:


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## jaros bros.

Your piece is not absorbing any more stain. Most likely it is just sitting on top and drying much like paint now. The first couple coats seal it up pretty well. The reason they tell you to let it sit longer before you wipe to get a darker color is because it is soaking into the wood. You are using an oil stain and that's what happens with an oil stain.

Now your piece has a lot of loose pigment sitting on top of the surface. You'll need to be careful not to push it around if you brush on a top coat.


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## Gerry KIERNAN

With an open pored wood, such as oak, it can be helpful to apply a filler to help seal the pores before staining, or mixed with the first coat of stain.

Gerry


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## Systemlord

jaros bros. said:


> Your piece is not absorbing any more stain. Most likely it is just sitting on top and drying much like paint now. The first couple coats seal it up pretty well. The reason they tell you to let it sit longer before you wipe to get a darker color is because it is soaking into the wood. You are using an oil stain and that's what happens with an oil stain.
> 
> Now your piece has a lot of loose pigment sitting on top of the surface. You'll need to be careful not to push it around if you brush on a top coat.


 
It is completely dry now, how can I push it around now that is 100% dry? Are you also saying that even an ultra thin third coat will not soak in to the wood but dry on top of the wood? If I'm careful applying the third coat will it dry properly? Either way the clear coat will be spayed on or poured on using Parker's Super Glaze, once the third coat is dry I will wait a week before clear coating it.

Thanks for the advice,
Systemlord. :smile:


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## Dusty82

I tend to agree with Jaros Bros - I think your oak has absorbed all the stain it's gonna absorb. In that case, I don't know what applying another coat of stain will accomplish. If it's still not black enough for your taste, I'd drop into my local Sherwin-Williams or Kelly Moore paint store and talk to them about it. Take the sample board you've posted pics of with you. Tell them what you've used so far, and what you plan to use to top coat it - taking the can of top coat with you might be a good idea, in case they have any questions. They might be able to supply you with a toner spray you can use to get a darker color that is compatible with the stain you've used, as well as your top coat.


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## Systemlord

Dusty82 said:


> I tend to agree with Jaros Bros - I think your oak has absorbed all the stain it's gonna absorb. In that case, I don't know what applying another coat of stain will accomplish. If it's still not black enough for your taste, I'd drop into my local Sherwin-Williams or Kelly Moore paint store and talk to them about it. Take the sample board you've posted pics of with you. Tell them what you've used so far, and what you plan to use to top coat it - taking the can of top coat with you might be a good idea, in case they have any questions. They might be able to supply you with a toner spray you can use to get a darker color that is compatible with the stain you've used, as well as your top coat.


 
It does seem like it's just staying on top of the wood instead of soaking into the wood like jaros bros had mentioned which I never doubted for a minute. I think I'm going to stop hear at two coats instead of doing a third coat because my last staining job after three coats just pushed around the top coat material moving it around making it even more uneven and less uniform than it was originally. I have heard Sherwin-Williams has a much better quality stain that provides a thicker more uniform finish, when I bought my red oak for the size I needed 11" 1/2 x 16" I had them cut me three pieces incase I messed up. This way I have three chances to get it right! 

I already took a trip to a nice hardware finishing place and was told if I want it any darker that they would take another piece of wood that I have as a spare and spray it with a primer and then a shiny lacquer finish for $100 dollars (tight on funds right now). I think I will try to finish what I have started in a timely manner and see how it looks with Parker's Super Glaze and if not satisfied I'll choose the second option. 

There was some bleeding on the second coat (harder to see) that are about the size of a period (*.*) that are still a tiny bit soft, trying to scrape them off only takes the finish off a little. How long should I wait before top coating with these very tiny semi soft bleed lumps? I would at least like to try and finish what I've started any way I can cause it looks so beautiful as you have seen! :smile:


Really guys that you for all the help thus far, I really appreciate your your expertise! Doug


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## TWOXSIX

I had a similar situation several mos. ago. I made three free standing rod racks. One in red oak,one with soft maple and black walnut, and one with poplar.I used equal parts of mineral spirits,BLO, and minwax fast drying polyurethane clear satin.(a recipe I read on this site) no stain.... The poplar and the maple did not bleed. The the black walnut had minimal bleeding. The red oak took about 4 days before there was no sign of bleeding.This was after only 2 coats, a light one then a little heavier one, but I did wipe the excess with a rag. Is it the nature of the wood or something in minwax in general? I didn't use stain.


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## jsmith800

Varathane Gunstock; bleeding occurred for me while using Red Oak recently, I believe I saturated the wood with too much stain, I used a foam brush for stain application and let it stand for about 10-15 minutes before wiping off. I've got another project to stain tonight, i'll be using a cotton rag vs the foam brush this time. Also, I moved the stained parts to a warmer room for drying which may have been a problem also. In any case, finishing seems to be a learning process. The final project turned out well with some extra care.


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## 2lim

I think everyone covered the stain questions, as for the two part super thick glaze finish: Do it in two coats! That stuff has a bad reputation for "bubbling" even when being poured on a wooden surface, it will trap tiny pockets of air in the grain, that then get caught in the finish, and you get a nice white little bubble. If you do a super think first coat, it seals all of the grain, but doesn't allow a thick enough coat for a bubble to get trapped. Once this is set, you can pour a nice thick top coat on, with no real risk of bubbles.

The epoxy will have a yellowish tinge to it, but will be minimally noticed over a piece of oak that dark.

Simon


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## bandman

*Stain bleeding*

This is exactly why I don't use Minwax stain. Minwax stain has Linseed Oil in it and it virtually never dries! With an open grain wood like oak it will just keep bleeding through until it dries; be lucky it happened so soon, mine waited for a month (after the customer had it), won't use it any more. Use something like Old Masters or Mohawk.

Bandman


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## HowardAcheson

What you are seeing is perfectly normal when staining oak, particularly deep pored red oak. The stain goes down into the pores and as it begins to dry and cure it expands and pushes some stain out of the pores. It's called "bleed back". It will continue for a few hours. The way to deal with it is to go back every hour or so and again wipe off the excess stain. It will eventually stop bleeding back.

Don't avoid wiping off the excess. If you don't, the stain will dry leaving little rings around each pore which require some work to remove.


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## rbk123

bandman said:


> This is exactly why I don't use Minwax stain. Use something like Old Masters or Mohawk.


Not a big fan of Minwax either. I did an entire staircase of red oak with Zars and never once had a bleeding issue. Try them along with Old Masters or Mohawk.


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## 4DThinker

Paste wood filler. That's what I was taught to use 30+ years ago when I was learning how to finish open-pour species. Tint it before applying with a little of the stain.

Not sure if anyone even sells it any more.


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## BZawat

Totally agree with you guys above on stain choices. Minwax is junk, so is Cabot or whatever the hell Lowes carries. I didn't know any better until I tried Old Masters. What a huge difference in performance. You could have achieved a black like that in one application with an Old Masters gel stain, or probably even their wiping stain with 15-20 mins of penetration time. Try it, you'll see what we mean. 

Also, like stated above, definitely do 2 coats for the epoxy. Air bubbles (from an unsealed surface) in a thick pour will totally ruin your finish. 

Someone above mentioned brushing a finish on over dried stain floating on the surface. He's correct in saying that it may push the stain around. Reason being the solvent in the finish will re-dissolve any stain that has not absorbed into the wood. I've never poured epoxy onto stained wood before, but I'd be concerned about getting poor bonding with all that oily stain sitting on the surface.


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## 4DThinker

For black black I use india ink followed by the top coat of your choice. Craft stores sell bottles of it.


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## jsmith800

Thanks Howie, I just finished the stain process the project is drying right now. All looks good, I was a little more conservative during the stain application in hopes to prevent excessive 'bleed back' this time. I'll give the parts a few days to get totally dry before applying the clear finish & watch for wet expansion spots.


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## Brian T.

The large, open pores (vessels composed of stacks of vessel element wood cells) will suck up anything.
A paste sealer would have plugged those without interfering with the overall staining characreristics of red oak.
SOP for flooring.

All that you can do now is as others have suggested.


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## mdb007

Hi Guys first time member, glad I found this post on google search. We redid our foyer and I layed a combo of tile and 12mm Laminate, then while looking at home depot found the red oak molding was only about 1.40 a foot so decided to get rid of the beat looking pine molding and go with hardwood. We had a new door installed last year so I got the Sherwin Williams classic stain in a fruitwood custom mix to match the builders stain, which my old neighbor found out that is where the local builder in our town goes for stain. I did a test piece and experienced the bleed but just wiped down twice then it stopped. I did a light sanding this morning and did second coat but isn't as dark looking as how it looked on pine stain. I did let sit the full 15 minutes which is what SW suggests. Also prepped wood properly using 120 grit sandpaper and wiping down with tack cloth.

Any tips? When I do the rest of the wood thinking for not doing any sanding or steel wool and just applying again for better penetration. for the pine molding around door I ended up doing like 5 coats to get to match the other molding. hoping I don't have to do for the red oak. when you llok at attached pic bottom wood is new oak baseboard two coats, middle quarter round oak is 1 coat ( may not be red oak so thats why color difference?), and top is old molding.

Thanks for you help.
Bill


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## Steve Neul

You should never let stain set for 15 minutes. With any brand stain you wipe it off immediately after applying the stain and only apply one coat. This is the reason the wood is bleeding stain, it's too saturated. It will eventually quit but you have to keep an eye on it and keep wiping the excess stain off until it quits bleeding. There is a real risk when doing multiple coats of stain you allow some to dry on the surface. When that happens the finish will adhere to the stain instead of the wood and peal off. 

If the color isn't dark enough use a darker stain or go over it with a dye stain to supplement the color. Sanding the wood with a more coarse sandpaper will also allow it to stain darker.


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## mdb007

Ok thanks, from the previous posts here it just sounded like red oak does bleed because of larger pores. So then why does Sherwin Williams suggest 5-15 minutes and Varathane say 2-3 minutes? I know the SW is oil based stain and I think My varathane is water based? And as previous posts said keep checking it, which i did and ended up with two wipes over 3 hours and it stopped. When I built our island the sides were birch veneer plywood, it did not bleed but was only a 1/16" thick so maybe that had something to do with it. That we used varathane and let it sit for 1-2 minutes.

It's funny we now have 2 extra quarts of stain as neither one came out dark enough for the transition pieces. I ended up getting a minwax espresso which gave me more brown than the american walnut and another one which were much redder than we wanted for the hickory floor color.

Straining is an artform!


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## Steve Neul

mdb007 said:


> Ok thanks, from the previous posts here it just sounded like red oak does bleed because of larger pores. So then why does Sherwin Williams suggest 5-15 minutes and Varathane say 2-3 minutes? I know the SW is oil based stain and I think My varathane is water based? And as previous posts said keep checking it, which i did and ended up with two wipes over 3 hours and it stopped. When I built our island the sides were birch veneer plywood, it did not bleed but was only a 1/16" thick so maybe that had something to do with it. That we used varathane and let it sit for 1-2 minutes.
> 
> It's funny we now have 2 extra quarts of stain as neither one came out dark enough for the transition pieces. I ended up getting a minwax espresso which gave me more brown than the american walnut and another one which were much redder than we wanted for the hickory floor color.
> 
> Straining is an artform!


Is it Sherwin Williams or an employee in the store that said 15 minutes? It sounds like someone that doesn't have a clue on how to finish wood. The wood is only going to accept just so much stain and letting it sit 15 minutes will cause much more problems than it could possibly help. In hot weather the stain would dry on like paint in 15 minutes. If they told you to put varathane over stain after 2 or 3 minutes drying time they were deliberately trying to sabotage your project. The only stain you can do that with is an alcohol based dye stain. Any oil stain takes a minimum of an hour drying time before you topcoat. The hour is warm dry weather. Cool and or damp weather takes more drying time. Soaking the wood for 15 minutes in stain would take 24 hours drying time at best. 

You would have less problems with birch bleeding than oak however you would have more problems with the wood blotching letting the stain soak longer. 

Yes staining is an artform. Sometimes you have to tinker with stain for hours to match the color. The lighting in your shop can also screw with the stain work. When I think I have the stain mixed right I take the sample out in the direct sun to compare the color. If it matches under artificial light as well as sun light I go with it. Still sometimes the color looks off when you start sealing it. If it's too red you can spray a light green dye over the stain and it will tone down the red. There is also red dyes if the color isn't red enough. These can be used between the coats of your finish and if you don't go overboard with it looks like your oil stain was right all along.


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## mdb007

Hi Steve, 
The SW can says 5-15 minutes then wipe, the Varathane stain can says let it sit 2-3 minutes then wipe. no one said to put Varathane over the other stain. I do use the Varathane poly for my top coat which i like. And when i did the test pieces the other day. it was raining and damp about 60% humidity but the stain stayed wet for 10 minutes and i was able to wipe. i didn't over apply either where it was pooling just took a nice brush and wiped on the SW stain..

I'm going to go to the SW store tomorrow and talk to a manager to see if i can get the correct stain color that the builder used in all the homes in neighborhood. and taking a non faded sample of the old trim as well.

And yes I know what you mean about lighting. We did 5 samples of paint for the wall because none really seemed to look like the sample and the 5th one the wife and i finally agreed on but it's more minty colored than i like.

Here is a link to the SW technical sheet. it says you have 15-20 minutes at most to work with the stain to accomplish the finish you want.
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777504956/


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## Steve Neul

The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site. 

What ever Sherwin Williams say it must be the absolute limit the stain can be worked. It can't mean it's a good idea to do it for every condition. In your case the wood is over saturated with stain is the reason it was bleeding. The color would have been the same if you wiped it off immediately or wait 15 minutes. The sooner you can get stain wiped off the better. 

The stain you already have they can add more pigment to the stain to darken it. I'm sure they know what pigments are already in it. The more concentrated the pigment is the darker it will stain. Minwax on the other hand you can't add pigment to. With Minwax it can only be darkened by adding a dye stain. You could also take a sample of the color you need and some scrap wood and they will mix the stain for you to match. I have no idea what they charge for the service but they do that.


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## dodgeboy77

<<_The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site._ >>
Steve, you need to have Adobe Reader (free) on your computer to open that link because it's a .pdf file. It opened immediately for me.


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## Steve Neul

dodgeboy77 said:


> <<_The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site._ >>
> Steve, you need to have Adobe Reader (free) on your computer to open that link because it's a .pdf file. It opened immediately for me.


I guess I will have to do without then. I'm not downloading anything. Last month I got a virus that took out my computer and printer both. I'm just getting started with a new computer now. And yes I had virus protection software too. Actually three of them on my computer and the virus wrote itself into windows and the virus software didn't see a thing.


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## mdb007

I'm just going to get another quart of a darker shade mixed tonight. I did a piece of the door casing this morning, let it sit about 2-3 minutes and wiped, way too light and orange. It could be the red oak compared to the pine I am sure. I talked to manager of the sherwin williams store and he said yes the builder in our town who built many of the homes does use their stain but won't let them keep it on file! so they bring a board in for a match on new batches! that is so stupid! What a big PITA!

Thanks for all your help guys.

Bill


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## kelsochris

You have two options to get a darker color. 1) stop sanding at a lower grit 2) use a darker stain. Wipe it on give it a few minutes to soak in then wipe off the excess. Let the stain dry preferably for 24 hours before top coating. If you are going for a darker look try an oil based topcoat over your oil based stain. Water based too coats will wash out darker colors typically. You can seal the wood first with a wash coat of 25% finish and 75% of the appropriate thinner. That step might solve some of your bleed out. Let your topcoat dry an hour or two after applying, put two coats in then knock it down with some steel wool and hit it one last time. If you use oil based poly you can thin it some with some mineral spirits to get it to flow out better.


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## mdb007

I went to Sherwin williams tonight and the guy steered me toward their BAC wiping stain, he said he prefers that to their classic stain. And after trying some different additives and removing some red got close to what I want for the stain color little more on the brown side. about to do a test board now and cross my fingers! Some of the previous posts suggest that red oak bleeds by nature. Another test board i did this morning before work and even with a good wipe down still had a tiny bleed when i got home. I am going to have to sand down and put the new stain on anyway so no big deal.

Ok here are pics, the light board was with original fruitwood based stain, i did that this morning. the second was with darker stain based on chestnut I just finished in the last 1/2 hour. This is in the ballpark now and with poly should match up nicely with old trim.


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