# Loose tenons



## Terry Beeson (May 29, 2008)

OK... So I'm sitting here watching Norm (New Yankee Workshop) building a door. For the frame he's using a "loose tenon" method. He mortises both pieces with a router and makes the tenon from a piece of mohogany just thick enough to fit in the mortise, but the width of the loose tenon is about half an inch or so less than the length of the mortise, rounded over on the four corners with a router. He says this will allow him to align the two pieces together, but still give him as good a joint as if he had cut the tenon in one of the pieces (using Titebond III)

Not that I doubt Norm, but have any of you used this method and do you think the joint is as tight as one with the tenon having been cut into one of the pieces?


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Norm`s OK, He`s one of the more realistic TV intertainers...he`s probably looking for a little locating play he can deal with. As far as the strength of the joint versus regular M/T...I think a solid tennon about 2"s deep would be stronger. The route he put on the floating spline will also not trap any glue while clamping. As you should know...there are a number of ways to build a door. A floating spline is quicker!...Which means alot today. You can also use dowels 3/4 or 1" ( but that method requires exact layout). Then there are through tennons with a thin strip of veneer to cover the endgrain. Also you have to think about the pannels...if they apply. Then you could use a Style and Rail cutter, simular to a cabinet door only larger (industrial). I think Norm has some very good ideas...especially for the student. Rick


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Getting back to the original question, consider this theory. Assuming you have a loose tenon and two parts that are mortised. Glue one end of the tenon into one of the mortises. Now in essence you have what represents a tenoned end of a M&T. Comparing that assembly to a traditional tenoned end, it would be not as strong just because of two parts being glued. 

But, a well fitted loose tenon joint is no slouch of a joint. In some cases, because of slight alignment differential, will make the difference of a fit or no fit condition. Alignment and fit are critical to good joinery, and is obvious if you have any experience with dowels.:yes:


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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> Comparing that assembly to a traditional tenoned end, it would be not as strong just because of two parts being glued.


I wouldn't agree with that. I have seen many examples of how a glued joint is strong then the wood that it is gluing. I would say it is just as strong as a standard M&T, but I prefer the loose because I can just cut the wood to the exact size I want, with out considering the tenons in the mix.


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

I haven't tested this theory but...
I have to agree with Dvoigt. Everything I have read says the glue is stronger than the wood. And I have never had a properly glued joint fail.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

One point to consider...ya glue is stronger than the wood...sales blerb...wood lasts longer than glue. glue is good for about 7 to 10 years, depending on the joint and finnish on the wood. What kind of glue...what is the shelf life...what is the enviornment...A good plumber will use top notch materials. A good woodworker should do the same! So, work methods are the key...top notch joinery is the signature. Rick


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## Terry Beeson (May 29, 2008)

Rick,

That was somewhat my contention when I heard Norm say this. However, you have to use glue in a regular M&T, so I figured maybe he had a point. And I have a 35 year old Walnut gun cabinet that is glued together with Elmer's... and I think it was white, not yellow Elmer's. Only a few nails in the whole project and it still is just fine. Not doubting what you say. I think you have some very valid points there...

(Why is it Billy Joel starts singing in my head when I view one of your posts?)


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Ya, Terry...I think that too! There was a guy on the crew I used to work with who gave nicknames to everyone. He had a hard time remembering our names! Anyway, he called me pianoman...he said it was because every time he saw me working on something, "it`s like you`re working on a piano". We called him Helmet...we just could not get through to him... Rick


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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm not a big Norm fan... he using too much pine and stain, and the things he makes usually remind me of things that where in my grand parents house. I'm much more of a David Marks fan, and he uses loose tenions quite often.... 

If it is good enough for him and the quality he does, i don't think that I can go wrong.


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## ch0mpie (Nov 10, 2006)

I saw this episode last night, and although I ussually like Norm, I wasn't impressed with this project. His loose tenons looked like they had 3/16" to 1/4" "wiggle room" on each side. I wasn't real fond of his panel construction method either. But you have to give him credit, he admitted at the end that it was his first go at an entry door.


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