# Stain selection



## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

Hello,
I am trying to replicate the color that was partially done by previous owner. I stripped the rest of the wood and now i need to pick the same or very similar color and blend it together.
Attached image shows old color. When I sand it a little at point where i want to blend it with stripped wood I see there is some white color that looks like paint and then bare wood. I wonder what is that white color? Is it a varnish? What color of the stain it might be? And what type?




















My plan is to go with red mahogany, but i am not sure if this is the same? I also found some old can with red oak color? Could this color be a red oak?

I have 7 year old can with Minwax red mahogany and I tested it on a piece of wood and seems to look similar but little darker and misses that reddish color. Could the 7 year old stain loose its color richness? I tested on pine and probably my wood is maple or something else? I am not a wood expert. I know that different wood looks different with same stain, but i want to at least get closer. Attached are my test patches. Would the wood look reddish with the varnish?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The "white" you're seeing is likely the wood you've sanded to. The grit paper you used might have been too coarse. Try sanding and stopping at 180x. Apply your oil base stain and wipe on and wipe off in a shorter time...like in a minute or so. The longer you leave the stain on the darker it will show. Try some samples.





















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The white looks like the base color for wood graining to me. It's essentially paint made to look like wood done with a glaze that someone paints the grain on. If that is what it is the wood is first painted white to cover the natural wood then the lighter color of the woodgrain is painted on and then the dark part of the grain is painted on to simulate real wood grain. If you are going back with a oil stain then it's important to get all of the paint off. 

As far as the color of the stain it doesn't look like the color is purple enough. They used to have a color I believe was called Cordova which matched that but they don't show it on their chart now. With Minwax stain you can't really alter the color with color tint. You can only intermix it with other Minwax stain or add a dye. Mohawk finishing products sells aniline dye powders which you can mix with alcohol you can apply over the Minwax stain to suppliment the color or the powders can be added to the stain. My internet isn't working well enough to open their site today to give you a specific product. You would need some black, a burgandy red color and a navy blue color to mix the color.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> The white looks like the base color for wood graining to me. It's essentially paint made to look like wood done with a glaze that someone paints the grain on. If that is what it is the wood is first painted white to cover the natural wood then the lighter color of the woodgrain is painted on and then the dark part of the grain is painted on to simulate real wood grain. If you are going back with a oil stain then it's important to get all of the paint off.
> 
> As far as the color of the stain it doesn't look like the color is purple enough. They used to have a color I believe was called Cordova which matched that but they don't show it on their chart now. With Minwax stain you can't really alter the color with color tint. You can only intermix it with other Minwax stain or add a dye. Mohawk finishing products sells aniline dye powders which you can mix with alcohol you can apply over the Minwax stain to suppliment the color or the powders can be added to the stain. My internet isn't working well enough to open their site today to give you a specific product. You would need some black, a burgandy red color and a navy blue color to mix the color.


That was my impression too that this was some no stain technique.
I went the old school and removed old paint so now i am thinking that i can either stain what was stripped and later when i do the other room i will remove old fake paint and re stain.
this brand has some rich stains:
http://www.myoldmasters.com/color-compass.htm

also do you think that 7 years old stain might loose the color?

thx


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never used the Masters brand stain. There really isn't a great deal of difference in wood stain so it should be fine. I would use the wiping stain rather than the penetrating stain. The seven year old stain won't loose color. When they go bad it seperates with the thinner on top and the linseed oil clumps up. You can easily tell by stiring it if the stain has gone bad and if it has set for seven years I wouldn't attempt to stir it and use it in the same day. There will be pigments that go to the bottom and it takes quite a bit of work to get it suspended again. I would thoroughly stir it and let it sit overnight and stir it again the next day before using. 

It looks like you have a mixture of woods. The bottom picture looks like pine and maple. These woods are prone to blotch so I would recommend a wood conditioner prior to staining. You should get some scraps of wood and work out the staining process before you put anything on the windows.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> I've never used the Masters brand stain. There really isn't a great deal of difference in wood stain so it should be fine. I would use the wiping stain rather than the penetrating stain. The seven year old stain won't loose color. When they go bad it seperates with the thinner on top and the linseed oil clumps up. You can easily tell by stiring it if the stain has gone bad and if it has set for seven years I wouldn't attempt to stir it and use it in the same day. There will be pigments that go to the bottom and it takes quite a bit of work to get it suspended again. I would thoroughly stir it and let it sit overnight and stir it again the next day before using.
> 
> It looks like you have a mixture of woods. The bottom picture looks like pine and maple. These woods are prone to blotch so I would recommend a wood conditioner prior to staining. You should get some scraps of wood and work out the staining process before you put anything on the windows.



i did more experimentation and turns out that there was lots of color at the bottom of the can that did not mix through shaking. Like you said this is exactly the issue. I mixed it by hand and now i can get lighter reddish color. The 1st and 2nd (counting from left) is actually same color as 5th. (red Mahogany minwax) The 3rd and 4th is old stain i found called Rich Mahogany by old master. (type wiping stain) I will go with 5th and semi gloss Polyurethane. Now i can easily see what happens when you add more or less stain to change the color. I think i can easily use that stain and there is no need to invest more. I am still thinking if i should use the wood conditioner or just stain over as i am only trying to get rusty look, no super stained and clean surface.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bwspot said:


> i did more experimentation and turns out that there was lots of color at the bottom of the can that did not mix through shaking. Like you said this is exactly the issue. I mixed it by hand and now i can get lighter reddish color. The 1st and 2nd (counting from left) is actually same color as 5th. (red Mahogany minwax) The 3rd and 4th is old stain i found called Rich Mahogany by old master. (type wiping stain) I will go with 5th and semi gloss Polyurethane. Now i can easily see what happens when you add more or less stain to change the color. I think i can easily use that stain and there is no need to invest more. I am still thinking if i should use the wood conditioner or just stain over as i am only trying to get rusty look, no super stained and clean surface.
> 
> View attachment 74575


I'm not sure what you mean by "Now I can easily see what happens when you add more or less stain to change the color." If you mean put two coats on or brush it on heavy and let it dry then you are asking for trouble. Anytime you use an oil stain you should wipe off the excess. If you brush stain on and let it dry there is a film of stain on the surface of the wood which really doesn't bond to the wood. Then when you put a finish over it, the finish bonds to the stain instead of the wood. Then in the weeks or months later the finish starts flaking off. 

When altering the color of stain you need to add more pigment and darker pigment. You end up adding a lot of black pigment when you go with a dark color. The colorant the paint stores have in their machines to mix paint can be added to the stain to darken it. Often a real paint store such as sherwin williams sells the pigment in bottles such as Cal-Tint. Some stores don't stock the bottles but will sell you the pigment in empty cans. I even went to a store where they didn't have the empty cans so it you plan this you might take a container. I ended up having to getting several ounces of tint in a styrofoam coffee cup. 
Another product you can use is oil based artist oil paint. It's really thick and concentrated but if you stir it a lot will do fine to modify stain. Don't try to alter Minwax Woodfinish Stain. The colorants won't mix with the stain. Only dyes will mix with Minwax. 

The wood conditioner will make the stain color more uniform however you can expect it to make the wood harder to get the dark color you are working with. The product is a sealer which the soft parts of the wood soak up more to prevent the blotchy spots. By sealing the wood it doesn't absorb the stain as well. You will need a much darker color stain using a wood conditioner.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

Last question before i start to stain.
I did the final wood cleanups, sanding and finishing with the steal wool (super fine) and lastly i sprayed the wood with the water and then i noticed that the wood would have different colors and shades when reacting to the water. Once it dried out it looks more uniform and same. So I wonder, if the wood would react to the stain the same way it does to water. I checked the PH of the wood and it was 7 so it should be ok to stain. I am just afraid to start staining to find out that all will look like crap. I guess I can always put more layers of stain to make the wood look more uniform.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bwspot said:


> Last question before i start to stain.
> I did the final wood cleanups, sanding and finishing with the steal wool (super fine) and lastly i sprayed the wood with the water and then i noticed that the wood would have different colors and shades when reacting to the water. Once it dried out it looks more uniform and same. So I wonder, if the wood would react to the stain the same way it does to water. I checked the PH of the wood and it was 7 so it should be ok to stain. I am just afraid to start staining to find out that all will look like crap. I guess I can always put more layers of stain to make the wood look more uniform.


 Steel wool is kinda dirty to use on bare wood. I would stick with sandpaper. Wetting the wood won't really tell you how the stain will react. The water will only get so dark where the stain could go nearly black in spots. To be on the safe side I think it would be best if you used a wood conditioner before staining or thin the stain a great deal for the first coat and then use it full strength. You could also thin linseed oil 50/50 with mineral spirits to use as a conditioner. If the wood needs a wood conditioner and you don't use it the stain will make dark blotchy spots all over the woodwork. You can't really put layers of stain on. Within a couple of minutes you will have to wipe off the excess stain and it will only go so dark. If there is a need to suppliment the color then a dye should be used. Once you get it stained I'm wondering what your plans are for the topcoat. You should not use Polycrylic water based polyurethane. You could use the fast dry polyurethane or an oil based polyurethane.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> You should not use Polycrylic water based polyurethane. You could use the fast dry polyurethane or an oil based polyurethane.


There are better waterbased polyurethanes than Polycrylic. WB poly would be a good choice. Stays clear, dries fast, easy clean up. Some are as durable as lacquer or oil base polyurethane.









 







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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> There are better waterbased polyurethanes than Polycrylic. WB poly would be a good choice. Stays clear, dries fast, easy clean up. Some are as durable as lacquer or oil base polyurethane.
> 
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> ...


 It appeared the OP likes working with Minwax so I was warning specificially about using "Polycrylic". I don't have data on other brands of poly. My instincts are that no water based poly should be used on the Red Mahogany stain.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> It appeared the OP likes working with Minwax so I was warning specificially about using "Polycrylic". I don't have data on other brands of poly. My instincts are that no water based poly should be used on the Red Mahogany stain.


You read the directions (*Special Instructions:* Polycrylic® should not be applied over red mahogany stain. Instead, use Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane over any red mahogany stain)....and you are suggesting to follow those directions. Thank you.


















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> You read the directions (*Special Instructions:* Polycrylic® should not be applied over red mahogany stain. Instead, use Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane over any red mahogany stain)....and you are suggesting to follow those directions. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are not very forthcoming with info as to why though. I suspect there is iron oxide in the pigment which would react with the water.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

I finally stained it. I did not use that much stain, i used foam brush, stained to cover the area waited 5 in and wiped off. Initially all looked nice and color was rich, after 1 hour it went darker. I must accepted what i got. This wood was stripped with chemicals and who knows what was the quality of it after that? My only question is, before i protect it can i restain with a rug just to give it a little bit of richer color or it wont work?

thx


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

As best as I can see the stripes are the grain of the wood which is pretty much normal. It's a tiny bit blotchy but doesn't look bad. You could wash the wood down with lacquer thinner to lighten it a little and then put a thin coat of a gel stain over what you have to subdue some of the stripe look. 

I don't understand what it is you are considering restaining with so I'm not addressing that one. You shouldn't restain with anything other than a dye or a gel stain. If you put any pigment on the surface it could interfere with the adhesion of the topcoat.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

If it is too dark already I don't see how adding more stain will help. Maybe a wipe down with mineral spirits may help lighten it up a little. Wiping stains are not made to be applied in multiple coats, you can have problems with the finish peeling off. What type of finish are you planning on using as that will make a difference on how you proceed from here.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

oil Polyurethane clear or semigloss


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> As best as I can see the stripes are the grain of the wood which is pretty much normal. It's a tiny bit blotchy but doesn't look bad. You could wash the wood down with lacquer thinner to lighten it a little and then put a thin coat of a gel stain over what you have to subdue some of the stripe look.
> 
> I don't understand what it is you are considering restaining with so I'm not addressing that one. You shouldn't restain with anything other than a dye or a gel stain. If you put any pigment on the surface it could interfere with the adhesion of the topcoat.


i though i could put another layer of stain to get richer color, that's my version of restaining, sorry for lack of knowlegde


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bwspot said:


> i though i could put another layer of stain to get richer color, that's my version of restaining, sorry for lack of knowlegde


 There isn't much which holds stain together. If you put another coat of oil stain on and leave it, the oil and the thinner soaks into the wood and leaves the pigment on the surface. The pigment then is more or less dirt. Then when you put the finish on, it sticks to the dirt instead of the wood and in the weeks and months later the finish starts flaking off. It's always best to wipe every bit of oil stain off. If it needs more color then you can use a dye which is closer to ink which penetrates into the wood instead of laying on the surface. The gel stain is like you mixed a can of brown paint with a can of varnish. The pigment is thin enough it's somewhat transparent but since it has the varnish in it will adhere to the wood and your topcoat will adhere to the gel stain.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

I have been reading this thread and all the suggestions.
Maybe there isn't this kind of service in a lot of places in the US, but have you guys tried paint stores?
When I needed to match virtually anything in South Florida, there were paint stores that mixed custom stains just like they match paints.
All you had to do was bring in a raw piece of the right species of wood, along with a drawer front, etc., any piece with the desired finish.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bzguy said:


> I have been reading this thread and all the suggestions.
> Maybe there isn't this kind of service in a lot of places in the US, but have you guys tried paint stores?
> When I needed to match virtually anything in South Florida, there were paint stores that mixed custom stains just like they match paints.
> All you had to do was bring in a raw piece of the right species of wood, along with a drawer front, etc., any piece with the desired finish.


You are right, most Sherwin Williams will mix stain like that but it isn't to the point where they do computer matching like is done with paint. They just do trial and error tinkering as I would and depending on the talent of the person doing the mixing it may match or not. When I first got into finishing I had that done several times and more often then not I was not satisfied with the results. Often the color would look fine until you started putting clear on it. Even now I will sometimes mix some stain and when I put a coat of sealer on I don't like it and will alter the color with a dye before proceeding.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

When I do stain matching, I use the same species, mark my samples, and apply the topcoat to be used. That produces the true look and finish. The topcoat will change the look of the stained piece. IMO, just matching the stain color isn't sufficient.


















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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree that is has to match after topcoat is applied, my guys (father and 2 sons) were very good at anticipating this, they sold me the topcoats also., maybe I just got lucky?


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

last time (7 years ago) when i did my initial project with stripping off the old paint with heat gun and later some chemicals, i went to the Sherwin Williams store and asked to match the color and nobody could figure that out. They started to mix and came out with some all in one solution (together with protection) that was way off the original color i asked for. I did not feel that they knew how to match the color and they straggle a lot. This year i went to another pro store to match the color to the previous one for my bath room project and i ended up with rich red and again completely off. And finally i tried to match myself and the match was perfect but after i applied it and waited few houra the color changed as i did know how the wood would react to it. I think it is very difficult unless you have same wood and know you stuff very well. Just my 5 unprofessional cents.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

bwspot said:


> last time (7 years ago) when i did my initial project with stripping off the old paint with heat gun and later some chemicals, i went to the Sherwin Williams store and asked to match the color and nobody could figure that out. They started to mix and came out with some all in one solution (together with protection) that was way off the original color i asked for. I did not feel that they knew how to match the color and they straggle a lot. This year i went to another pro store to match the color to the previous one for my bath room project and i ended up with rich red and again completely off. And finally i tried to match myself and the match was perfect but after i applied it and waited few houra the color changed as i did know how the wood would react to it. I think it is very difficult unless you have same wood and know you stuff very well. Just my 5 unprofessional cents.


It's my opinion that stain is hard to match too. It's easier though if you are doing it daily and have a wide variety of products to test with. It helps to to mix and test the stain on a sample under fluorescent light and then take it out in the direct sun. Sometimes it will match under one or the other but not both.


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## bwspot (Jul 2, 2013)

cabinetman said:


> You read the directions (*Special Instructions:* Polycrylic® should not be applied over red mahogany stain. Instead, use Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane over any red mahogany stain)....and you are suggesting to follow those directions. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my guess is that if i go with semi gloss it will change the look a little bit and make it more brighter and yellowish
i have three stains at home: the old masters I used before it is the freshest I have so i was thinking to use it and due to semi gloss look i hope it will make the dark stain look brighter? I also have minwax satin and some old water based polycrylic. According to what you said polycrylic cannot be used,


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With that dark reddish color you are using you won't really see the yellow that oil based poly has. If you are wanting a satin finish it's available in oil based poly as well as the fast dry poly.


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