# To restore or not to restore a No. 5



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I purchased a No. 5 as a parts plane from EBay.

When I received this, I found out it is the oldest Stanley hand plane I have owned so far.

I have no way to know which parts are original, but I do know :
a) There are only two patent dates on the casting.
b) The frog is an old design.
c) The cap iron has the Bailey patent date stamped on the item.
d) The iron has Stanley Bevel and Rule Company stamped on the item.
e) The casting and frog are not designed for a frog adjustment screw.

The casting top view. No ring for the knob.









The casting side/bottom view. Seems to be a divot on the side close to the rear. Rust seems to be superficial, especially for the age.









Closeup of the cap iron. May be hard to see the Bailey patent stamp upside down. This is the correct orientation of the cap iron, so for some reason the stamp was on the bottom part facing up.









The frog and lever cap. The frog is rather worse for wear, and in this view showing the bend on the left side. I straightened bends at 90 deg to this view.









This has the low knob. A piece has fallen out of the knob. The tote has been broken at the top, very common.









*The big question is whether to restore or minimal cleanup and leave as-is*. What do you think?

I will have to use parts which are not true to the Type, perhaps 8 or 9.

I am not sure if this will be a desired user if I do restore.

I have all the hardware, I just removed so I could take pictures of the components.

If I do restore, have I saturated the forum with my restoration posts. I was posting the earlier threads to inspire others, which was successful.

I am not sure if readers want to see what may be repetitive threads.


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

1. Keep posting them......no ones making anyone look at them.....

2. It seems a shame to part it out......i'd vote for restore


----------



## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

I could look at plane restoration threads all day long. I think we need a group shot of your collection though. 

As far as value, I've got no clue. I think that this one is already past the point of "it is only original once" so the rest is up to your discretion.


----------



## bigbo1234 (Feb 13, 2013)

Ya, restore it, then send it my way!!!


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mavawreck said:


> As far as value, I've got no clue. I think that this one is already past the point of "it is only original once" so the rest is up to your discretion.


I am not expecting to make this one into something valuable, but I am not sure if I can make it into a desireable user. This is my biggest concern.

For example, folks may not want an earlier Stanley-Bailey without a frog adjustment. The ones which may want such a type, may want it pristine.

With this plane, I cannot do pristine, and usable. I can do pristine and crappy appearance which to me is not desirable or usable.


----------



## bigbo1234 (Feb 13, 2013)

Dave Paine said:


> I am not expecting to make this one into something valuable, but I am not sure if I can make it into a desireable user. This is my biggest concern.
> 
> For example, folks may not want an earlier Stanley-Bailey without a frog adjustment. The ones which may want such a type, may want it pristine.
> 
> With this plane, I cannot do pristine, and usable. I can do pristine and crappy appearance which to me is not desirable or usable.


Then put it on display In your home. They are by far the prettiest tools.


----------



## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

A couple of random thoughts - I would have no problem using this plane if it were mine. While a frog adjustment might be nice, how often do you really use it? My #5 that I use all the time doesn't have one while my smoother does - it makes no difference to me. It also doesn't bother me that the tote on my #35 transitional is missing the top "horn" like yours - as long as it's not scratching my hand when I use it I don't care that much - I may one day repair or replace if I ever get the time, but it is way down on my list of things to do.

I would clean and tune it, then use it if you want. If you have no particular use for it, offer it up in the classifieds forum and I'm sure someone will come along who would want to obtain it. Personally, I don't care if a plane has all parts true to type, if it performs it's function well for me, then it is a valuable tool. 

As to the restore threads: like Ryan said, no one is making anyone read it just because it's posted. If _you feel_ you are "saturating" the forum with restore threads just add it on the end of one of your other threads. On the other hand, if there is something "new" to show in the restoration of this plane, then it is worthy of a new thread, if not, why bother? Just playing devil's advocate here, I don't really have an opinion either way....


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I've got several plane without the frog adjustment screw that are regular users. I vote to restore it as well. You will mote subtle difference in the look and feel of these older Stanleys. And they perform just as well as the newer types.

I think the adjustment screw was a nice addition, but its no where's near a requirement for me.


----------



## Joeb41 (Jun 23, 2012)

I enjoy your posts and your love of old Stanley iron. Keep it up. :thumbsup:


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Dave, I was on my phone last night, so I kept it short. My vote is keep the restores coming. I love watching them and seeing the transformations.

This is one of my favorite restores. Its also one of my oldest planes.


----------



## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes yes yes. Some craftsman before you used it, and now with a bit of cleanup and tuning ( and perhaps a new tote) someone else can continue to use it. Please restore and please post the progress pics!

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Your doing good, Dave. In reference to your initial post my only opinion is that maybe we as a forum can try to post less threads on the same topic and try to keep at least all of the #5's in one thread per member. It seems we are becoming a restoration / collect section rather than woodworking. I give a huge hill of beans and that's two of em.

Hope you take that in the open frank spirit I intend - I think we interact enough to speak freely... I hope.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Good point. Maybe we need a restoration / collect section to separate it for those not really interested.


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

timetestedtools said:


> Good point. Maybe we need a restoration / collect section to separate it for those not really interested.


I'm certainly interested, I would love to see more hand tool use threads though! 

It's not a lack of interest in the restores, I've done and continue to do my fair share of em. As Dave said the restore threads have obviously inspired other and new members to do the same, I just think we need to teach em how to use em too. :smile:


----------



## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

I vote no more restore threads or new section. You guys are buying up all the old hand planes and inspiring others to do the same. How am I supposed to add to my over sized collection of rusty gold? I am kidding, keep up the good work.

As far as the #5, restore it. I have a couple of old ones like that and I just think how cool it is using something over 100 years old and wonder what it was used to build in the past. If it is fixable it would be a shame to part it out.


----------



## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Dave, I love your restore threads, and vote for you to restore the #5. But the process is pretty much the same for the jack planes, and I doubt there would be much new info in another restore thread.

But a restore thread for a block plane would be a good thing for me to learn from. Especially a low angle one or one with an adjustable mouth.


----------



## bigbo1234 (Feb 13, 2013)

I think a new section for hand planes and all aboutthem would be a good idea.


----------



## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Another solution might be for Dave to simply group some of his restores in the same thread. We really just need to consider how to best organize information and how it can be most useful for anyone searching. That said, much of the process shown in Dave's and others' tool restore threads can apply to any cast iron/steel/brass/wood tool parts. Right now, the hand tool thread covers buying, using, and restoring hand tools. In the case of used tools (which make up the bulk of conversation in this section), the three are closely linked. 

Dave and others do a great service to our community by documenting the process so clearly in these restoration threads. I vote that we keep things arranged as they are. I don't perceive any over-saturation in the forum section or other problem like that. Keep up the good work!

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


----------



## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Well said Ben - Thank You!


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Update on the restore*

I have been working to restore this plane, the oldest I have obtained so far. I think this is a Type 9.

I have removed the paint on the casting and frog then had them sand blasted. I do not have pictures at this time.

This is my first "low" knob plane, but the knob had a chip so I feel it needs to be replaced.

The replacement is a little longer. I was trying for similar length, but I may leave this. I like the height.

This picture shows a crack on the original from top to bottom.









This picture shows a chip in the original.









I selected the walnut blank to have some figure. The pictures do not show the chatoyance well, but it is in the piece. Looks wonderful as I turn the piece in the light.

Thanks for looking.

Next update will be to show the casting and frog before painting, and then after painting.

I also have to make a new tote. I traced the outline of the present tote with a broken top, and no surprise, this shape is different than the later models. I will try and replicate the original shape.


----------



## Woodwart (Dec 11, 2012)

I get all sweaty just thinking about plane restoration. I have to smuggle tools into the shed so my wife won't find out. Keep posting the threads, and I think we do need a plane/hand tool restoration section.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*The new tote*

I have been slowly working on this restore while also working on a No. 4 and some turning projects.

This is a comparison of a later Type No. 5 tote and this early type No. 5 tote, which lost the tip.

Thicker at the bottom, the top "elbow" is about 1/2in lower, the back does not curve in as it meets the bottom.









Since the tip was lost, I had to make my own shape. Trying to follow the original. I think I prefer the later style for the top, and this style for the bottom.

Curly walnut for the new tote. This is not finished. Just sanded then buffed. Also the hole for the toe screw has not been drilled.

I buffed so I could see the scratches which need to be sanded out.









Next task is to paint the casting and frog. They have been sand blasted.

The No. 4 I am restoring had a blade which was installed backwards by the last owner. The cap iron made a rust shadow in the blade, so this was on backwards for many years. The person had also sharpened the blade to about 15 deg due to having the bevel up. Very strange. I have no idea if the person felt this was an improvement or just did not know better.

This is a picture from the EBay auction. I did not take my own, just got into tearing down for restoration. The blade and cap iron have about the same level of rust. Paint was mostly gone. I have re-painted the casting and the back side of the frog.

The tote and knob on this plane cleaned up very nice. I used paint stripper then sanded and re-finished with Tru-Oil.









This one just needs the sole to be lapped, then put back together for trying out with my test piece of 2x4.

Thanks for looking.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Progress on the No. 5*

I have been working on the metal parts recently.

The blade and cap iron cleaned up well. On the left is a normal length blade to show how much the original blade has been sharpened over its 100 year life. Note the cap iron screw hole was originally at the bottom and the slot a bit shorter.









I repainted the frog and casting. A note for readers - ensure you remove the tape from all areas you want painted. I had folded the tape over and was intending to cut off the small area behind the feet of the frog. Got distracted when the lateral adjustment lever came off and then the pin fell out.

So I now get to practice replacing a pin on the lateral adjustment lever. A very small piece. I felt it hit my shoe otherwise I may not have noticed so soon. As Murphy would have it, the piece ended up several feet away.









The casting and front of the frog. Small benefit of the lever being off at present is that it was easier to lap the face of the frog.









View of the casting sole. I have not lapped the sole at this time, but looks clean.









The lever cap. Before the nickel plating.









Now to replace the pin, lap the sole, sharpen the already-too-short blade etc.

Thanks for looking.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Update on the No. 4*

The No. 5 is almost complete, I just have to apply finish to the knob and tote.

Since I was contacted by Sarge240 about the No. 4 and it is now in the mail, I thought I would post the pictures of this one for Sarge240.

The plane's previous owner had installed the blade backwards, and then ground a very shallow angle on the blade. The rust pattern from the cap iron indicated the blade had been mounted like this for many years.









The as-received plane components. Other than the blade being backwards, the other components looked as expected. 









After rust removal, I then found the existing paint was in bad shape. Flaked off in many places, so I removed all existing paint, had the casting sand blasted, then re-painted.

Happy to find out the knob and tote were in good shape. Sanded and re-finished and look good as new.









I like to see the before and after next to each other, so this is the before picture.









The after picture showing the plane can now make nice fluffy shavings. Take good care of the plane Sarge240.









Thanks for looking.


----------



## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

That's one hell of a job Dave plane. Laughing!!!! 
I'm always intrigued by your restorations. 
Thumbs up!!!!


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I've got a new blasting cabinet in my truck. Refurb's just got easier.

another nice restore Dave.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

timetestedtools said:


> I've got a new blasting cabinet in my truck. Refurb's just got easier.


OK, just rub it in. I am officially jealous.


----------



## Sarge240 (Feb 8, 2013)

Dave, thanks so much, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my new friend. 

You did an amazing job my friend!


----------



## jjboozel (Mar 11, 2013)

Dave Paine said:


> OK, just rub it in. I am officially jealous.


Dave do you redo the japanning or do you paint it black??


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

jjboozel said:


> Dave do you redo the japanning or do you paint it black??


Josh, I just use spray paint. I followed the recommendation of TimeTestedTools to use *Dupli-Color Engine Enamel DUPDE1635 Ford Semi Gloss Blac*k spray paint.

Available at many auto parts stores. Easy to apply. Several coats 10 minutes apart for all need to be applied within 1 hour. A can will be enough for several planes.

If you miss anything, then you need to wait 7 days before re-coating. This is the instructions on the can. The paint needs the time to cross-link and fully cure. Re-coating before the 7 days is not good, the new paint will not adhere and will be a mess to remove.


----------

