# Precision squares?



## shippinguptoboston (Jun 4, 2021)

Hello everyone,

I've been going down the rabbit hole of trying to find high quality precision measuring tools without breaking the bank. It seems like the best way to go is with some cheapo tools ( Empire, Groz, Swanson) or go expensive (Starrett, Woodpeckers, etc.)

These are the main tools I'd like to get:


T-Square (ex. Woodpeckers Precision Woodworking T-Squares)
Solid/Double Square (ex. 3020-6 Toolmakers Stainless Steel Square)
Combination Square
Framing Square

I'm starting to build larger pieces of furniture so I need a certain level of precision and I wanted to know if it's even worth spending this much on higher priced tools. I'd appreciate anyone's who's gone through this process and ca share any insights they have.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

You really won't need the framing square or precision T square. My favorite square for assembly checking is a plastic drafting square. It doesn't mar the wood.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

I have an Empire 12" combo square, framing square, and a Johnson 8" try square, and drywall T-square. My furniture turns out pretty good with those. You can see some in the project showcase.

I rarely use the drywall square as a T. It's mostly used as a straight edge for plywood, or as a guide for a flush trimming bit. I basically use the combo square, the try square, and the framing square only for large carcasses.

Furniture is big, and you have lots of stuff you need to tweak anyway as you build. Don't go down the unnecessary "precision" rabbit hole. Accuracy and consistency are more important.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

I like quality layout tools. The visibility is better, and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be. So there is a benefit to me if I make things a little easier on my eyes plus I like the feel of some of the nicer stuff...but you aren't really buying precision. All my iGaging stuff is as precise as my Starrett, Fowler, PEC and Woodpeckers stuff. I still like the nicer stuff, but I can't tell the difference between the Starrett, Fowler, PEC, AND STI stuff.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

Yeah, marking gauges are nice to have too. I have a few of the basic Marples ones.

They help with consistency when marking things like mortises, tenons, and panel grooves. They just about remove any error from moving a pencil as you mark at the end of a combo square. You score the line then mark it with a mechanical pencil.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Squares are either square or they are not, price has nothing to do with it other than how you feel about it in your hands. Granted the chances of finding an accurate one is much greater as the price increases, but square is square in the end.


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## Tree Hugger (Sep 1, 2011)

The woodpecker is square to .004" per foot , plenty good enough IMO.
The Starret toolmakers square is .0002 per 6" , way overkill IMO 
That being said I use a toolmakers square at times but I'm a retired Tool&Die maker ..I use what I have.
If you want a square like this check out MSC Direct for something similar for lots cheaper price.
Starret combination squares are accurate and I've used them since 73 in metal working and in the last 15 yrs playing with wood.
You get what you pay for , don't expect precision at bargain basement prices. It takes extra steps better more expensive equipment and high quality control (certified expensive gauging) to achieve consistent precision.
If a company isn't willing to tell you the accuracy of it's product it should tell you something.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

I prefer SPI, As good as the Starrett but less$








SPI - 4 Piece, 3, 4, 5-1/2, 7-1/2 Inch Base Length, 4, 6, 9, 12 Inch Blade Length, Square Set - - 79268058 - MSC Industrial Supply


Find 4 Piece, 3, 4, 5-1/2, 7-1/2 Inch Base Length, 4, 6, 9, 12 Inch Blade Length, Square Set - at MSC Industrial Supply, serving the metalworking, safety, and MRO industries for over 75 years




www.mscdirect.com


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

Jar944_2 said:


> I prefer SPI, As good as the Starrett but less$
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always wondered if SPI and PEC were the same products manufactured in different countries.


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## yomanbill (Jul 7, 2020)

This is an internal (personal) struggle that only you can resolve. Most of todays inexpensive measuring tools are made by computer controlled machines and probably most of them are accurate enough for wood working and the differences between low cost and expensive is not as great as it used to be. In years prior to having the computer controlled machines, the cheap scales (rules) were stamped and accuracy was questionable; particularly when compared one to another. The latter part of that is most important. The measuring tools you use need to be consistent even if they are not the most accurate. Accuracy is less important than consistency. This is where better quality comes into the picture. Overall, you will find better consistency from one tool to another.
Having said that, I like the better quality measuring tools (within reason). I have a couple of Starrett squares and a Lufkin square (both from ebay), a small 4" PEC double square (love it), and several different sizes of steel rules. I have these just because I like them and I feel confident with them. If I was using the less costly aluminum, pot metal, plastic tools, I would probably not see much if any difference in the quality of my work, I just wouldn't enjoy it as much.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

shippinguptoboston said:


> I've been going down the rabbit hole of trying to find high quality precision measuring tools


one issue in this debate is having a "known" square. 
there is one option to prove the device / tool in your hand is square:
the framing square - typically long leg 24", short leg 16"

old Greek dude, came up with the Pythagorean Theorem.
which, for triangles, says "a squared + b squared = c squared"
most any modern day $2 calculator will make this exercise a breeze...

I use a tape measure marked in millimeters - 1/25.4th of an inch, you can read to 0.5 millimeter or 1/50.8th of an inch.
measured along the outer edge, it should show:
length of long arm nominal 24" = 609.6mm; squared = 371,612.16
length of short arm nominal 16" = 406.4mm; squared = 165,160.96
measured tip-to-tip of outer edges = square root of (371612.16+165160.96) = 732.648 mm

took me four "tries" off the rack to find an aluminum framing square with < 1 mm error.
but now I have a piece of hardware that is mathematically proven square.
I dropped it - so I rechecked....

you can compare all the rest of the "square tools" to that proven square.
$2 or $200, square is square, and even the cheap guys get it right time-to-time.
things with moveable parts like combo squares need short-medium-long extension checking.....
things like speed squares, they are or they are not.

having a proven long edge square to set up / check machinery is very convenient.


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## Jim Frye (Aug 24, 2016)

I spent four years as an engineering draftsman in the pre-CAD era, so I place my alignment confidence in a draftsman's 45-90 triangle. Every angle device in my shop is "registered" to that triangle. I use it to set the table saw, CMS, and miter gauges. I also use it to make sure the other "squares" are aligned to it. I never draw with it and it resides in a special carrier in a special place in the shop. I have a framing square, but rarely use it and never for furniture making. I think I used it last to frame the two walls of my new shop. Framing squares are best used for laying out rafters, stair stringers and other odd angle roughing cuts. I also have a couple of 3/4" plywood corner squares that are used to align adjoining sides of a carcass. I also use speed squares for alignment as well as marking and find them invaluable for furniture work.

BTW, you can adjust a framing square to open or close the 90 degree angle. Scribe a line from the inside corner to the outside corner of the square. To increase the inside angle, use a center punch and a hammer on the scribed line near the inside corner. To close the inside angle, punch on the scribed line near the outside corner. Check with your standard device and repeat punches until the angle matches your standard.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

shippinguptoboston said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been going down the rabbit hole of trying to find high quality precision measuring tools without breaking the bank. It seems like the best way to go is with some cheapo tools ( Empire, Groz, Swanson) or go expensive (Starrett, Woodpeckers, etc.)
> 
> ...


Just my 2 cents. If it is not perfectly square, or square to the tightest of tolerances, then there is no sense in using it. I have a Starrett machinest square and combo squares that are my go to's. My framing square is a Johnson, that I adjusted to square using my Starretts. I wen through half a rack of squares before I found one that was close to square. Some may say that it is overkill to shoot for that level of accuracy, I disagree. Wood moves, and we give up a little here and a little there. But the less I give up makes my job easier in the end.


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## Kenh3497 (Jun 5, 2021)

B Coll said:


> Just my 2 cents. If it is not perfectly square, or square to the tightest of tolerances, then there is no sense in using it. I have a Starrett machinest square and combo squares that are my go to's. My framing square is a Johnson, that I adjusted to square using my Starretts. I wen through half a rack of squares before I found one that was close to square. Some may say that it is overkill to shoot for that level of accuracy, I disagree. Wood moves, and we give up a little here and a little there. But the less I give up makes my job easier in the end.


In the engine building world it is called tolerance stack. .0001" here and .0002" there with .0001" for good measure in the worst possible place and you can have a bearing or wrist pin wipe out a $10,000 engine. Mow with wood it would be crazy to hold such tolerance but the point is those "out of tolerance" corners can stack up and bite you.

I agree with having a good square. After that it is up to the user to do the work.

Ken


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

B Coll said:


> Just my 2 cents. If it is not perfectly square, or square to the tightest of tolerances, then there is no sense in using it. I have a Starrett machinest square and combo squares that are my go to's. My framing square is a Johnson, that I adjusted to square using my Starretts. I wen through half a rack of squares before I found one that was close to square. Some may say that it is overkill to shoot for that level of accuracy, I disagree. Wood moves, and we give up a little here and a little there. But the less I give up makes my job easier in the end.


If you mark with a pencil of any kind, then any measurement is off by a minimum of .008" even with a perfect square and careful measurement.

Using a marking knife probably decreases this to .003".

I doubt I can cut to a line closer to .005 or so.

So any line I measure is likely off by .008 at least.

Using a proper stop and flat stock, I can get a repeated cut much closer than that.


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## bw040349 (Dec 21, 2021)

deleted...


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've some pretty basic squares that have worked fine...


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## bw040349 (Dec 21, 2021)

FrankC said:


> Squares are either square or they are not...


It's not difficult to "tune-up" an inexpensive combination square. Check YouTube for videos on how to do this -- e.g., 

How To True Up A Combination Square The Simple Way AND Tune It Up To Make It Work Better For You - YouTube 

My dad showed me this about 60 yrs ago, and it works just as well today as then!


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

For woodworking uses, a super-fancy square is honestly just wasted money. Get something basic that passes the pencil line test and dont sweat it. Much as i like metrology gear, woodworking by and large doesnt need NIST-traceable tools. Save the Starretts for when you get into metalworking


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

BigCountry79 said:


> If you mark with a pencil of any kind, then any measurement is off by a minimum of .008" even with a perfect square and careful measurement.
> 
> Using a marking knife probably decreases this to .003".
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree that repeatability is far more precise than measuring each piece and marking. I did not imply otherwise. There are times when an accurate square is of great assistance to me when setting up machinery, checking end cuts for square, and other procedures. A square that is not square is about as useful as a jointer with infeed and outfeed tables out of plane. A waste of money and useless. There I times too that I rely on calipers or dial indicators. The right tool for the right job. Not suggesting others must do what I do, but this is simply how I was taught to work.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

B Coll said:


> I absolutely agree that repeatability is far more precise than measuring each piece and marking. I did not imply otherwise. There are times when an accurate square is of great assistance to me when setting up machinery, checking end cuts for square, and other procedures. A square that is not square is about as useful as a jointer with infeed and outfeed tables out of plane. A waste of money and useless. There I times too that I rely on calipers or dial indicators. The right tool for the right job. Not suggesting others must do what I do, but this is simply how I was taught to work.


I use a set of dial calipers, machinist squares and a dial indicator on everything I build.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Jar944_2 said:


> I use a set of dial calipers, machinist squares and a dial indicator on everything I build.
> View attachment 436572
> 
> View attachment 436571



I'm just the opposite and dont.. The only time we used calipers was on the planer/sander


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## wedlaket (Oct 14, 2021)

woodraphic is awesome stuff. black with white lettering. excellent quality, as square as the over-priced red brand, and 1/10 the cost!


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