# Carpenter Cut - Optimal cutlist diagram for iPad/iPhone



## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

After my previous post here, I got some good feedback and great ideas from professionals on this site on how to optimize the cutlist diagram to make it useful for professional wood workers. This lead me to develop “Carpenter Cut” app for iPad/iPhone devices. It goes like this:

Start with a sheet of plywood (e.g. 48×96), tell it the dimensions and quantity of each part you want to cut from it. Specify the kerf (size for your saw blade (0.125 is the default)), and indicate grain direction by putting a rotation lock on each part. Tap the “Cut” button and watch this tool generate the best cut layout diagram giving the maximum number of parts possible from your stock sheet, saving you money and saving the environment by producing minimal waste.

Demo Video here: 




The app has the following Features (Based on requests and feedback I got from readers of my earlier “Smart Cutter” post):
- Different Size and Quantity specification per part.
- Kerf specification (Width of the saw blade).
- Rotation lock for grain direction cutting per part.
- Priority Fit Order for each part size.
- Aesthetically-pleasing random color generation for each part on the diagram and during entry so you can identify each part easily (or you can specify your own colors).
- Size annotation inside each sheet rectangle on the diagram with font size proportional to the sheet’s size.
- Name each part in the list.
- Cut Report generation showing: number of sheets Fitted/Rejected PER Part + Total Fitted (Yield), Total Rejected and Scrap % for the whole project.
- Save/Edit/Delete each cut list as a separate project in “My Projects” with project name, large sheet dimensions, kerf, and parts info list. 
- FAST State-of-the-art algorithm for diagram generation calculations.
- Change/Edit any parameter or sheet priority order, and see how the cutting diagram automatically changes on the fly before you make your cut.
- Caches past projects diagram images for quick viewing/browsing later without regeneration.
- Email, Air Print, and/or Save your generated diagram to your Camera Roll Album.
- Easy navigation user interface.
Looking at the level of feedback I got from everyone on this site, I’m confident I can make this app even better with more feedback, so I’m posting this article here to collect more opinions on how you guys think I should modify this app to make it more useful for your every day projects.

You can download the app from this link

I welcome everyone’s feedback.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Well this is my opinion. You have three post on here all about something you are selling which makes it Spam. I will give you credit for it being at the least woodworking related, however it is still SPAM and expensive compared to other apps.

The proper thing is for you to become a member posting an intro and participating in the forum without your financial gain being your purpose. This forum is about sharing ideas, helping others become better woodworkers and many of us consider each others friends.

This is not a retail outlet. We don't like Spammers and I'm personally tired of all the new ways you guys try to squeeze in the Spam. The rule is participate as a member until you have 25 post then you can sell things in the appropriate category called "Classifieds". 

Had you offered your app for free for the first month or so you would get more people willing to try it out. After you start getting it out there, tested and reviewed by people you could then start charging for it, but damn $9.99 seams quite high to me.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi rrbrown,

I appreciate your opinion, however, my main purpose of posting this here isn't really to spam you or any one, but rather get some professional feedback from professional woodworkers whether they think the tool in its current state is usefull to their work, or whether it needs improvements, that's why I tried to reveal as much as possible of the app's features in the video I posted so you don't have to buy the app to be able to give your feedback. 

Being mainly a computer developer who likes woodworking, I thought I have a lot to learn from the community here. If the video isn't enough to show the app's features to be able to make a good assesment or review about it, I'm happy to give away promo codes to selected professionals who would be able to provide me with good ideas of how to make this useful to them and every one else.

Finally, as far as the price, it really comes at a tiny fraction of the price of fully loaded cutlist apps (e.g. CutList Plus Premium at $499) which work only on PCs, where this little inexpensive tool works from the palm of your hand on your iPhone, or iPad device, so you can have it with you in the shop without setting up special space for a full PC desk.

Hope this answers to your concerns. Again I'm still waiting to know if this would be a useful app to people out there or not. I can post more videos if necessary.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

SmartCutter said:


> Hi rrbrown,
> 
> I appreciate your opinion, however, my main purpose of posting this here isn't really to spam you or any one, but rather get some professional feedback from professional woodworkers whether they think the tool in its current state is usefull to their work, or whether it needs improvements, that's why I tried to reveal as much as possible of the app's features in the video I posted so you don't have to buy the app to be able to give your feedback.
> 
> ...


If you want professional feedback you should ask people to try it free. You put a link to buy the app. There is no way to really check how it works by a video, multiple variations need to be tried to see it's capabilities.

As for CutList Plus Premium I Googled it and its a windows based program not an App. There is a big difference between the two. $499 for an App would put it in the top 16 highest priced Apps.

Most apps are free to maybe $3.99 they have some in the $9.99 range but they are on the expensive side considering what the majority cost. Even those apps either were released free for review and then a price was put on it or they hired people to test it. Again just my opinion.

If you had posted that you were developing the app and wanted to offer it free to refine it and make it a better app then I would have had no problem. However you had a link to buy it, you offered no other post to participate in the forum as a member, just post about your app that cost money.

If it looks like a duck and quacks it must be a duck.


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

Let me start by stating that I do not own an iphone, itouch, or ipad, but wouldn't mind seeing an app like this out there..... :thumbsup:

I agree with EVERYTHING that RRbrown has said. :yes: Please don't come on here expecting us to help you get rich. If you really wanted our advice, you would offer the app for free for a trial period, and you would get plenty of advice.

I personally use a cut list program that I was able to download for free to my PC and it works great . It doesn't do everything that I want, but for free, I am not complaining:blink:. Someday, if I ever do get an iphone, etc, I would be probably in the market for such an app that you offer.

IF you really want advice, your best bet is to offer it free for a trial run, and don't "spam" us with your offers.


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## DST (Jan 10, 2011)

I do like the idea of the app and could see myself using it. However watching a video of you using it only shows MD what you want me to see. Until I have my own hands on trial I won't spend 10$ on an app in development. This week I wanted a fraction calculator app. I got three for free but only one lived up to the promises in it's description.
Again it's a useful product but overpriced for the app market.
Good luck with it


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

Ok, thanks everyone... I took the multiple stock sheets comment and have worked on it for the last 3 weeks constantly since I realized it is an important addition. 

Other comments regarding trying something that is in development were valid, and for that I will try to get the app reviewed by some professional wood workers who also blog on the net by offering them free copies. I obviously can't offer the whole world free copies or put the app for free, since that will really make it hard for me to continue developing and supporting the app, however I think the best way is to get some well known bloggers out there review the app and that should help every one.

The rest of the comments I got seem to all complain about the price, which seems a little unfair given the amount of work and effort I put in the app. I will try to make discount offers through the app stores every now and then, but putting it for free seems like a realy unfair request.

In any case, I was hopping for some feedback, and thanks to every one who provided it. Here are some screen shots for the modified app:










And the individual sheet:










The new app should hit the app store soon.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*my saw makes straight cuts*

not "stopped" cuts. I don't have an I Phone or CNC, so I'm technologically deficient. But on the example below there are a few places where you can't run a straight cut through the workpiece, you need to make a "stopped" cut. That requires a jig saw in my experience, and I don't care how efficiently you use the material, a 
"stopped cut" is labor intensive, $$$ and defeats the purpose of that layout . Maybe it's just me, but I want to make through cuts in every situation, cross cutting or ripping ....just sayin'.  bill

BTW there needs to be a way to select thin kerf vs full kerf blades which may affect the layout..?









__________________
Get your Optimal Cuts with Carpenter Pro!


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

How is something like this on an iphone, etc useful to anyone?

I would think that it would only be useful on a computing devise that is connected to a printer.

What am I missing?

George


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## Ebuuck (Jan 25, 2011)

How 'bout a dust collection app? I'll spend $15 on one of those!


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## PPBART (Oct 7, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> ...I would think that it would only be useful on a computing devise that is connected to a printer...


+1, my thought, too.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> How is something like this on an iphone, etc useful to anyone?
> 
> I would think that it would only be useful on a computing devise that is connected to a printer.
> 
> George


Hi George,

The app *Does* allow you to print the diagram to your printer, email it to someone, or even save it to your photo album. See the attached screenshot.










Also the Pro version coming out soon allows you to email all cut sheets as a single pdf file with the detailed cut report.

Hope this helps. 

As far as being useful, I think the mobility aspect helps, especially in the iPad version where you have a larger screen real estate. You don't need to setup a specail PC desk in your shop any more to install Cutlist programs that work only on a PC.


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> not "stopped" cuts. I don't have an I Phone or CNC, so I'm technologically deficient. But on the example below there are a few places where you can't run a straight cut through the workpiece, you need to make a "stopped" cut. That requires a jig saw in my experience, and I don't care how efficiently you use the material, a
> "stopped cut" is labor intensive, $$$ and defeats the purpose of that layout . Maybe it's just me, but I want to make through cuts in every situation, cross cutting or ripping ....just sayin'.  bill
> 
> BTW there needs to be a way to select thin kerf vs full kerf blades which may affect the layout..?
> ...


I totally agree with bill here on this one..... in the above example, if someone was to try to make a full sheet into more manageable pieces, they might rip the piece where the 3x2 and 7x5 pieces meet, which would slice the 2x8 piece on the right in half. Then one could probably manage the rest of the cuts with some carefully planned rips and crosscuts.

Just my 2 cents.... (Gee, I wonder if those 2 cents would go towards the purchase of this app. :icon_smile: :shifty

Fabian


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## mackem (May 20, 2007)

:shifty: "Hey zat you TED?" :huh::laughing:


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## dmh (Sep 18, 2010)

mackem said:


> :shifty: "Hey zat you TED?" :huh::laughing:


Nope, it's the new iTed....:laughing:


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## wooddude9 (Sep 6, 2008)

I would rather waste 2 more sheets of plywood than try to cut up a sheet in that way. Even if I only made $5 hour I dont see the labor versus Mat value. Unless the plywood is $300 sheet. The app needs to work with the most used shop equipment we all have.


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## Big Stud (Dec 2, 2011)

Having been a sawman and woodworker for thirty some years, when the day arrives that I need an app to make a plan to cut my stock, I am gonna give it up. I will tell all of you how you can save a bundle ............ forget about buying all the apps :laughing:


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## SeanStuart (Nov 27, 2011)

*Off topic - Sorta*

I was listening to the radio in the car, A commercial for a lumber liquidator or something like that. They had a "Floor-finder" app. 

I have that on my phone and it is not even a smart phone. It works every time!!:laughing:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup*

my tape measure has that also and the pencil behind my ear :yes: bill


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*Floor Finder*



SeanStuart said:


> I was listening to the radio in the car, A commercial for a lumber liquidator or something like that. They had a "Floor-finder" app.
> 
> I have that on my phone and it is not even a smart phone. It works every time!!:laughing:


The "Floor Finder" you say... hmmmmm..... do you know how many iPhones they had to give up just to test that app? Gees... all of that and you guys are still not happy.... :laughing:


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## tito5 (Apr 5, 2011)

as an android and pc user, and hater of mac, this is useless to me. I would like to see an android version though. It would have to be cheap really cheap. like others have said, it is doing something for me that I can easily do myself with a pencil, calculator and a piece of paper, your app can just do it faster. 
you say you don't want to give it away for free, but you want free advice on how to make it better? Here is an option, why don't you say first (insert number here) to pm me will get this app for free all you have to do is do a write up and let me and the board know how you like it.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*things change...*



tito5 said:


> as an android and pc user, and hater of mac, this is useless to me. I would like to see an android version though. It would have to be cheap really cheap. like others have said, it is doing something for me that I can easily do myself with a pencil, calculator and a piece of paper, your app can just do it faster.
> you say you don't want to give it away for free, but you want free advice on how to make it better? Here is an option, why don't you say first (insert number here) to pm me will get this app for free all you have to do is do a write up and let me and the board know how you like it.


Thanks tito, I started actually doing that with some wood bloggers and now waiting till the new app is out (Carpenter Pro) which has wood grain direction control and display, multiple sheets, plus other usefull features. It is currently under review by Apple and should be out next week, so as soon as it goes out I will generate some promo codes and give it to selected wood bloggers to test and write up about it. I found this method to be more effective in gathering feedback, but don't get me wrong, every one's input here has been also valuable to me.

As for the Android market, I doubt there will be a version out any time soon, mainly due to the fact that you just brought up, that most android market users expect things for free or for next-to-nothing, which makes it hard to justify the development time and effort. However, this is not set in stone, I may reconsider this later on as things progress. Right now I'm just concentrating on the App store market.

By the way, I used to be PC User and a a Mac hater for a long time... actually since back in the 90's, but when you live long enough (for all of you old-timers, 90's is "long enough" in computer age world :smile: ), you learn that "things change", so now I've learned to become "open minded"... :gunsmilie: .


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*RE: my saw makes straight cuts*



woodnthings said:


> not "stopped" cuts. I don't have an I Phone or CNC, so I'm technologically deficient. But on the example below there are a few places where you can't run a straight cut through the workpiece, you need to make a "stopped" cut. That requires a jig saw in my experience, and I don't care how efficiently you use the material, a
> "stopped cut" is labor intensive, $$$ and defeats the purpose of that layout . Maybe it's just me, but I want to make through cuts in every situation, cross cutting or ripping ....just sayin'.  bill
> 
> BTW there needs to be a way to select thin kerf vs full kerf blades which may affect the layout..?


Thanks for your comment above, this is exactly the kind of feedback that would come from an experienced woodworking professional, which is exactly what I'm seeking. In the diagram example you brought up above, you can easily make non-stopped cuts using the sequence of cuts demonstrated below (follow the red cut lines):











































However, your comment has just given me an idea of adding edge-to-edge cut sequence animation for each stock sheet after the diagram is shown similar to the above. 

I think this would be an important feature that would make this app more useful to woodworkers, so thanks for bringing it up. I will work on adding this feature in the next version of Carpenter Pro, which is by the way, already out in the App Store for those who are interested.

As for the Kerf, you can select only one Kerf value per project. Are you saying that you would normally do different kerf cuts within the same sheet? This will definitely change the layout, but before I make the modifications to the app, is this common a common practice when cutting? i.e. changing saw blade, hence kerf value when cutting stock?

let me know,

Thanks,

P.S. Bill, you have definitely made an excellent point, is there a private way I can send you a free copy of the app to poke around with? Do you have an iOS device? Thanks!


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*Carpenter Pro is out with video*

Finally got around to making a demo video for Carpenter Pro:

This is for the iPad Version:






I am also working on getting it reviewed by woodworking bloggers.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*thanks for the offer but*

I am still in the 20th century...2 cans, long string and pull hard to talk or listen. 

Regarding kerfs, no it's not the norm to change blades unless you wear one out or hit a metal object, so the kerf stays the same.

 bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

wooddude9 said:


> I would rather waste 2 more sheets of plywood than try to cut up a sheet in that way. Even if I only made $5 hour I dont see the labor versus Mat value. Unless the plywood is $300 sheet. The app needs to work with the most used shop equipment we all have.


+1.:yes: I get a real kick out of how dumbed down woodworking is getting. The last thing I want in my hand in the shop is a phone.

Maybe it's just me, but some of the pleasures I get from woodworking is the planning stages and layout. From taking initial measurements, and then using my brain to design and format a three dimensional structure from all the parts I cut, it's rewarding to see it all come together.

Give me a drafting table, tape measure, and a pad and pencil...not apps. For all those that say this is the wave of the future...


















 







.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> +1.:yes: I get a real kick out of how dumbed down woodworking is getting. The last thing I want in my hand in the shop is a phone.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but some of the pleasures I get from woodworking is the planning stages and layout. From taking initial measurements, and then using my brain to design and format a three dimensional structure from all the parts I cut, it's rewarding to see it all come together.
> 
> ...


Did I hear you say you wanted a pad? Do you want an "i" with that? 

Sorry... couldn't help it :laughing:

But on a serious note, things do change in this world, and while some enjoy spending the time planning the cuts, I think others may find the ability to do this with a push of a button invaluable, especially in time-constrained projects. 

This tool can also be used as a quick stock material cost calculator, and would pay for itself from the first project when the stock material is expensive, like when cutting acrylic for example, or pricey wood stock by saving you scrap that you could have produced otherwise using the manual approach.

My 20 cents (adjusted for inflation)


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*Would you use Part Label Stickers Feature?*

I received this feature request to add the ability to print label stickers for parts so that they can just be stuck to the parts as they are cut from the sheet.

My questions to those of you who make cutlists frequently are:

1. Is this a feature you would like to see in the App? Would it make the cutting job easier for you?

2. What size labels would make sense? Is 2x1 http://www.onlinelabels.com/OL5125.htm good enough? Bigger? Smaller?

3. Would you like to see Part Name & Dimensions shown on the label? Or one of them only?

your votes count...


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## ArmedFerret (Aug 24, 2011)

SmartCutter said:


> As for the Android market, I doubt there will be a version out any time soon, mainly due to the fact that you just brought up, that most android market users expect things for free or for next-to-nothing, which makes it hard to justify the development time and effort.


But hey, everyone knows Mac users will throw money at anything they're told is trendy and/or they can't live without, right? 

Avid pc user, iPhone owner, and free app fanatic checking in.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I think you might need to rethink your market here. If you're marketing an iOS app for woodworking, it's probably going to hit amateurs more than professionals. The 'pros' are more likely to have the pro software or automated setups that they wouldn't care about this. There are quite a few 'amateurs' as well who have PC and printing setups in their shops that can use programs like the free version of Cutlist.

And while the calculator apps and such are nice, I'm more likely to reach for a regular calculator that I can set down on the workbench and not worry about getting dust in the dock port, or worry about a rogue clamp falling on it.

That said, I think there's a market for this sort of thing, but not at the price being asked. A guy like me who's too cheap to run electricity to his shop isn't going to outlay $10 on an app that I can go inside my house, do it on the computer and print it out. You need to market yourself to the guy who's an impulse app shopper, which $10 is nowhere near.

I'd use it. It'd be cool to be out in the shop, or be anywhere, and come up with a plan for what I want to do when I get out there. It'd be nice to be able to pull the phone out of my pocket and check what my next cut will be instead of having to waste the ink and paper well beforehand. I always know where my phone is (it's always on my person), so I'd always know where my plans are.

I have a Touchpad (fire sale, wouldn't own a tablet otherwise), so getting something like this on that isn't going to happen. But I might recommend if you'd like to hit a wider audience also offer a web-based version, perhaps password protected so you can hit the Android tablet and PC/Mac users. I love the tablet in the shop, watching Nahm or Marc build something while I have the tools in my hand can sometimes make the process easier.

Would I use it? For $1.99 it would be a no-questions-asked impulse buy. For $3.99 it might be a maybe. For $9.99, I'll just go inside. Ten purchases at $9.99 brings you the same revenue (should) as 100 at $.99. What you need are reviews, word of mouth, and a high ranking on the category lists.


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

cocheseuga said:


> Would I use it? For $1.99 it would be a no-questions-asked impulse buy. For $3.99 it might be a maybe. For $9.99, I'll just go inside. Ten purchases at $9.99 brings you the same revenue (should) as 100 at $.99. What you need are reviews, word of mouth, and a high ranking on the category lists.


+1 on all of that

Fabian


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

cocheseuga said:


> I think you might need to rethink your market here. If you're marketing an iOS app for woodworking, it's probably going to hit amateurs more than professionals. The 'pros' are more likely to have the pro software or automated setups that they wouldn't care about this. There are quite a few 'amateurs' as well who have PC and printing setups in their shops that can use programs like the free version of Cutlist.


I might be wrong, but from what I saw in the market, most popular PC-based cutlist programs are in the range of $90-$500 a copy, while Carpenter Pro costs only $15, you only pay for it once to use on any device (iPhone, iPad...) afterwards, and you don't have to allocate space for a PC desk somewhere close to your shop to use it. 

There is a lot of convenience in having your cutlist data & engine inside your pocket, not to mention being able to save multiple cutlist projects, so you basically have all your past projects database inside your pocket too. You could be standing in Low's or Home Depot's aisle and have all your cutlist data handy with you.

Oh, and if you don't want to get your iPad/iPhone dirty while in the shop, just use the "Air Print" or "Email" options built-in the app to export your project pdf onto plain A4 paper!


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

*Part Labels & Stickers Feature*

I just added the Parts lables and stickers feature to Carpenter Pro as an in-app purchase for those who need it. This generates 2x1 barcode size colored stickers for all parts in your cutlist, like the ones shown below.Each label shows part name, dimensions and grain direction. Does any one think this needs additional information on the sticker?


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

For those of us who do multiple projects... a job # would be handy. :smile:


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## Grinder (Nov 17, 2007)

The thing I would take into consideration with your app is all the time spent setting and resetting between cross cutting and ripping. If I need 8 parts 5"x7", I want to set the saw to 5" and rip however many strips I need to to get the 8 pieces. The app looks like you would be jumping all over the place. Ripping parts over sized, cross cutting, then ripping them again. It's an efficient plan for material use, but not for labor. There needs to be a balance between the two.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi Scotty,

There is already a way to save projects (jobs) so I guess I'll add a third line on top to show the project (job) name.

Will work on this in the next version.


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## SmartCutter (Nov 2, 2011)

Grinder said:


> The thing I would take into consideration with your app is all the time spent setting and resetting between cross cutting and ripping. If I need 8 parts 5"x7", I want to set the saw to 5" and rip however many strips I need to to get the 8 pieces. The app looks like you would be jumping all over the place. Ripping parts over sized, cross cutting, then ripping them again. It's an efficient plan for material use, but not for labor. There needs to be a balance between the two.


I went ahead and plugged your part dimensions into the app and got the following cutlist diagram:






It looks like all you'll need is one cross-cut at 7" followed by eight rip-cuts at 5" each if you are cutting from a 96" x 48" board. Maybe I understood your comments wrong, but I don't know of a way this be done in less than 2 steps?

If you want, send me your part list to plug in the app and I'll be happy to generate the diagrams for you so you can comment on them.


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## DanarchyCustoms (Nov 8, 2011)

To be honest its a great idea especially for an app but I don't see myself using it. If material was outrageously expensive or there was a limited supply of plywood available then I may take longer than the typical few minutes of noggin' scratchin' to figure out the least wasteful way of making cuts. 

The thing that is overlooked (which I do enjoy as do most people) is the scrap wood. I usually can always use my scrap wood elsewhere in projects or in the shop over time, so to me its not that important to have leftovers. 

The last thing is, I don't know how many people actually have panel saws here, (I do not because of price and all that nor do I really need one right now) but thats really the only safe way to do a 7" cross cut. C'mon!? Crosscut a 4'x8' just to get seven inches? I'd rather do a 5" rip all by myself and then take it to the radial arm and cut them to 7" wide. 

Any leftovers will be repurposed and used to make jigs, the suicidal table saw push sticks, jig blocks for metal work or whatever.


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## Grinder (Nov 17, 2007)

Yes, you misunderstood me. I was referring to your example at the top of this page, which does a lot of jumping back and forth between ripping, cross cutting and re ripping the same piece of wood. What I'm trying to say is that in a working shop, time is money, and efficient use of time is as valuable as efficient use of material. Unless the material in your example is very expensive, I would buy two sheets and end up with more waste than you but, spend less time getting the job done.




SmartCutter said:


> I went ahead and plugged your part dimensions into the app and got the following cutlist diagram:
> 
> Cutting 8 7"x5" peices from a plywood sheet using Carpenter Pro - YouTube
> 
> ...


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## bigcouger (Jan 4, 2012)

SmartCutter said:


> The "Floor Finder" you say... hmmmmm..... do you know how many iPhones they had to give up just to test that app? Gees... all of that and you guys are still not happy.... :laughing:


Hey I Ted what have you contribed to this forum other than YOUR app which in my case I dont need it I got a good tape and pencil You not letting anyone test it and you just want them to buy it there is on money back garrentee so take your app and go some where else or start contribiting to the forum dont waste our time :furious:


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