# Closed corners on picture frames



## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

I'm making some custom picture frames for an artist to use for his oil paintings in his gallery. I'm trying to perfect my corners. He wants closed corners, which basically means he doesn't want to see my seams in the corners. I have really nice, tight joints, but up to this point, I have worked mainly with unpainted walnut, so this wasn't an issue. 

I have the finish down, which is a nice, super smooth satin black. I'm just looking for tips on completely hiding the seams. I used a wood filler, but it was too grainy and ended up just getting all sanded off.

Do I need another brand of filler? Or is there another way that this can be achieved? 

Thanks in advance...this is a first post for me


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Try this and see if it works for you.

It sets very quickly and I've found it to be very useful.

PS, from your description of the finish I'm assuming that these frames will be painted.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Yes...sorry. These will be painted. I am doing several layers of paint with wet sanding between the layers to get a nice, smooth finish.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

jharris2 said:


> Try this and see if it works for you.
> 
> It sets very quickly and I've found it to be very useful.
> 
> PS, from your description of the finish I'm assuming that these frames will be painted.


 I couldn't see what you said to try...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*mitered corners I assume?*

If you have to sand off the glue in the joint leaving a barely visible glue joint, then that's as good as you can get from the construction part of the project.
If you seal the wood, either with primer or shellac or lacquer sealer, then sand then primer again and then several coats of finish sanded in between with 400 wet dry, that's as good as you will get in the finishing part of the project.

You can try a grain filler to fill the pores of the wood which will help hide the grain. You seem to be after a "metal" finish look with wood... possible, but it will take several coats of primer and finish top coat.

here are some products:
http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/sealers-primers-a-grain-fillers.html

here's the search link:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=ytff1-tyc-inbox&p=wood%20grain%20filler%20primer&type=


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Trick: paint the cut surfaces of the corners with black felt marker. If they are reasonably good, the optical illusion nearly makes them go away. Make one corner as an expt.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Here is a shot of the corner. If I fill in with much more filler, then the corner is built up higher. I am so close, just have to try again. I got a different type of filler, one that is more finely textured. I'll try that on my next one. 

For the finish, I have quite a few layers with some wet sanding between. The final coat is a spray-on sealer. 

I didn't use a primer, and I got some of that for this next frame, also.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Use lacquer putty*

It's an automotive filler, air dries, is very fine and will sand smooth.
It's used to fill minor scratches on car finishes just like shown in the photo. Use a fine wet dry paper with a little soapy water after the paint is dry then you can paint right over it.

http://www.evercoat.com/productDetail.aspx?pID=31


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

+1 on the auto body body filler. I'd probably use bondo though as it is readily available, Wally World even carries it. :smile:


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

I may have to get some of that! I don't get to play in the shop until after my kids get to bed, and I have to be at work early in the mornings, so it makes it hard to do this as much as I want. 

I got some finer grit sandpaper and some higher quality filler, so I will try that next time. If it doesn't work, I'll definitely look into that product. I hadn't thought about moving into automotive stuff... I usually just build things, and finishing them with paint is new to me.


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Woodworking Mama said:


> I couldn't see what you said to try...


Oops! Sorry!

http://bondo.com/bondo-glazing-spot-putty-907.html


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

Woodworking Mama said:


> Here is a shot of the corner. If I fill in with much more filler, then the corner is built up higher. I am so close, just have to try again. I got a different type of filler, one that is more finely textured. I'll try that on my next one.
> 
> For the finish, I have quite a few layers with some wet sanding between. The final coat is a spray-on sealer.
> 
> I didn't use a primer, and I got some of that for this next frame, also.


the cut look's like it isn't a clean cut look's like the edge is rounded a bit ? i would use spackling that would sand down to a smooth finish where you wouldn't see the seam, lot's of way's have been mention all ready, the spackling is for hole's in a wall but work's any where it meed's to fill a hole work's for me, it sand's down smooth and you wouldn't see the seam my 2 cents
https://www.google.com/#q=spackling


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

del schisler said:


> the cut look's like it isn't a clean cut look's like the edge is rounded a bit ? i would use spackling that would sand down to a smooth finish where you wouldn't see the seam, lot's of way's have been mention all ready, the spackling is for hole's in a wall but work's any where it meed's to fill a hole work's for me, it sand's down smooth and you wouldn't see the seam my 2 cents
> https://www.google.com/#q=spackling


+1. :yes: Using Bondo or spot putty, takes feathering out the edges so they aren't noticeable. Spackle is easier to sand, and is less likely to hold air bubbles. One of the best I use is [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Synkoloid-Co-1008-Interior-Spackling/dp/B000H5OQP8"]*Synkoloids*[/ame].

















.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*spackle vs lacquer putty*

For a "metal" high gloss finish, especially in black :yes: lacquer or spot putty is what I would use and have used for years. It has virtually no particles and will sand as smooth as the surrounding surface and feather without a "seam". That's why the car guys use it instead of spackle.
Synkoloid is a great product, the best for interior walls and wood, and for other heavier bodied painted surfaces, but wouldn't use it on a surface that needs a very seamless surface since the paarticles are not as finely ground as spot putty ....JMO :smile:

There are some other issue here, not just filling the glue line:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> For a "metal" high gloss finish, especially in black :yes: lacquer or spot putty is what I would use and have used for years. It has virtually no particles and will sand as smooth as the surrounding surface and feather without a "seam". That's why the car guys use it instead of spackle.
> Synkoloid is a great product, the best for interior walls and wood, and for other heavier bodied painted surfaces, but wouldn't use it on a surface that needs a very seamless surface since the paarticles are not as finely ground as spot putty ....JMO :smile:


Car guys don't use spackle because it's intended for this type of fill, not metal. Bondo and body fill products are more dense than the wood to be filled, and sanding to feather the edges can sand the wood more than the fill. Synkoloids is ground finer than any spackle I've used. JMO.:yes:


















.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Just be aware that 45 degree miter seams may open and close depending on the changes in relative humidity.


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## Alan Sweet (Aug 16, 2013)

*I've used bondo, I like it. Works wonders*

It will make seams disappear.

If you are looking at alternatives and using paint, and assuming only the 45 degee miters are your concern, you might experiment with large enough sheet goods. First create a foundation frame of whatever. Then cut a whole square template, like a mat and glue it in place over the foundation. Then put the molding on the outside and interior over the top of the sheet good matting and also covering foundation. If you have well sanded sheet good you can get a satin finish.And no glue concerns.

I've used this approach on a number of frames.

But the seam in the picture, does not look like it was cut was true. There seems to be a gap in the miter. I would check my saw/sled to make sure it is aligned correctly.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

a few additional tips that may help. 
1. very little sanding, if any, on the cut miters before joining. place a backer board behind your cuts to help get the perfect cut. 
2. use a miter clamp
3. while the 2 pieces are in the clamp, and in their best position, wipe off any glue squeeze out, then lightly sand the joint (220 gr). the sawdust will fill any imperfections and close the joint up very nicely.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

I'd be "upping the ante" on tooling,ultimately shooting for no fillers.

Saw and fixturing whilst cutting would be one place to start.The larger the blade's diameter the higher the incidence of wobble/inbalance.So a smaller stiiffer blade may help.TS sleds suffer from too many "stacked tolerances".

Look into hold-downs for your chopbx.Then possibly find a smaller blade for it.

Next up would be sidestepping the cutting,somewhat.....with the use of grinding equipment.The "grinding" here is usually called sanding.......In anycase we're grinding the mitre,achieving precision angles not possible in any cutting opperation.I'll spare the details because it's one of those things that unless you've actually done it(grinding into the .001's)...you simply won't believe it.Not refering to "sanding" the face here.

Understand that even though you're using the same piece of mould....it's still a few inches apart when making your mitres.The higher the quality of mould...the better precision is attainable.Also understand that most commercial,"picture" moulds(those made of real wood)are contour sanded after they're profiled.All of this is leading to small,almost inperceptible variances in moulds profile.The intolerances run in to each other and aren't noticed.

Once you cut them a couple inches apart,to allow for reversing the 45,you are bound to get into some small profile errors(we're into the .001's now).Does your customer understand this?NO....they don't.Do they want to discuss it?....Usually not.But they do need real expectations on what is attainable in real wood mitres.You can NOT compare plastic,metal,or any man made products.......this is wood.This is not an excuse.....we grind wood here regularly into the .001's.It's easy once you have the equipment.But at what cost?

Just sayin,you're going to have to step up your tooling a little.If you want precision results,while entirely possible on "hillbilly" tools....it is most deffinately easier with better,more refined equipment.The very best of luck.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

After a trip to the hardware store, I have been working in the shop this week after the kids go to bed. I'll post photos later, but it seems as though I have a much better result. I'm putting the finishing layers of paint on it now, and waiting on drying and all that. 

I ended up just making a few "corners only" pieces. I have to say that in the early stages, the difference is quite noticeable. I'm pretty pumped. I got a finer filler, but next time I'm in town, I'm getting some Bondo to play with as well. I'm also playing around with base coats, primers, sanding sealer, etc...



There are a few tools that need to be upgraded, beginning with my miter saw! It's 45 degrees isn't exactly mathematically true, so that took a bit of adjustment to find. I also like the recommendation of a new, smaller, blade. 

Maybe I can make a decent enough frame or two to sell, then treat myself to a new saw! That's the plan, at least. My husband says that the shop has to now pay for itself.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Next up would be sidestepping the cutting,somewhat.....with the use of grinding equipment.The "grinding" here is usually called sanding.......In anycase we're grinding the mitre,achieving precision angles not possible in any cutting opperation.I'll spare the details because it's one of those things that unless you've actually done it(grinding into the .001's)...you simply won't believe it.Not refering to "sanding" the face here.

..........

Just sayin,you're going to have to step up your tooling a little.If you want precision results,while entirely possible on "hillbilly" tools....it is most deffinately easier with better,more refined equipment.The very best of luck.[/QUOTE]



Hmmm. Grinding sounds intriguing. I'm not afraid of learning about new things. Looks like I'm about to do some research! And yes, I do have a few hillbilly tools.  I'm replacing them slowly but surely...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Het BW....*



BWSmith said:


> Next up would be sidestepping the cutting,somewhat.....with the use of grinding equipment.*The "grinding" here is usually called sanding...*....In any case we're grinding the mitre, achieving precision angles not possible in any cutting operation. I'll spare the details .....




BW, I know you well enough to know what you're talkin' 'bout, but the folks out here/there in WWT have no clue when you refer to "grinding" on wood.. :no: We all *sand *over here, and to throw a different term at it just might add some confusion. I know you sand/grind composites, laminates and other different materials to close tolerances required in "machining" operations. Is that the reason... a closer tolerance, you call it grinding? :blink:
Everything I grind on shoots out sparks....just sayin' 
If I used a grinding wheel on wood, I'd just gum it up.
Sand wood, you get dust. Grind metal, you get sparks.
Call it what you choose, but some of us are easily confused.... :yes:

I have one of those old imbedded grit sanding discs for my table saw. I imagine if I used a properly set miter guage, I could get a decent angle on a piece of wood. However, when I sand an endgrain, the wood burns and the pores fill up and get hot and that won't give a good glue bond. I get the same results with sanding discs, unless it's a real coarse grit.

Sawing, as you suggest, with a stiffer, smaller blade may give much better results because the blade plate can't flex as much especially when just shavin' off a tad on the end to get it right on. That works for me. Sanding, not so much.


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## chopnhack (Dec 16, 2007)

I too want an explanation of the "grinding" process that is recommended. I could care less on semantics and what you call something, but I want to know your procedures if you are able to work to tolerances of 0.001! Fill us in please :thumbsup:


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm not much of a writer.....and could "show" you how to do this in under 30 seconds.Not much of a techie either...as I still don't even have a cell phone.

Did you know that,of the original 7 "machine tools"(now reduced to 5) that one was a planer?These are metal tools.So,you can plane a pce of steel?Does that make sense to a WW'er?Probably not,but it is still a bonafied approach to straightening a lathe bed,even in this day and age.

Do you know that a WW'ing handplane has a fixed blade and an electric planer has a head that rotates?Yes you do.....but what about those veneer planes that slice veneers off....what are they called?Super surfacers?

Do you know that you can plane wood with a widebelt sander?

It's semantics.The one thing that sort of irritates me is the disconnect between WW'ers and metal work.I just don't understand it?And this is a two way street.....metal workers looking at WW'ing as some sort of Fred Flintstone operation?Precision is just that.........the medium is what it is.I honestly can say that there isn't two nickles worth of difference machining wood and machining metals as long as you follow some basic protocol.

Heck,chuck up a pce of aluminum in the turning center and do a .100" D.O.C.(depth of cut)at an aggressive feedrate and then measure it's OD........now let it cool down and see what it is?Try welding a Nascar chassis and then tell me something about metal's innate stability vs wood.It's all the same stuff....just a different day(or medium).In some machining opperations,wood is easier......the EXACT same thing can be said about metal.

Ask a weldor about grinding steel and what comes into his thought process?Wonder if he's considering centerless grinding round stock(which you can do with wood BTW)?Wonder if he's ever run a surface grinder or a Blanchard?No,he's thinking about grinding a weld joint,or prepping a pce of metal.

So,ask a WW'er about "sanding" wood....what comes into the thought process?For me,it's ALL ABOUT historic houses/buildings and early American tradition of throwing sand on the floor and lets walk on it for awhile.But thats an awful long way from what most WW'ers think of,wouldn't you say?For most,"sanding" is some awful part of the finishing process that they've come to hate......it's boring,slow,and generally causes about as many problems as it 'sposed to fix.

Therefore,when using abrasive grinding techniques to VASTLY speed up certain machining operations(we are a working professional WW shop,and have been for 40 years)...and subsequently,RUNNING to the front of the precision bus....calling it "sanding" is a bit of a misnomer.At least in my pea brain.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Very interesting. I had never thought of it much. Thanks for the lesson


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

You are quite welcome.

One thing you can do........and this right here is what separates the do-ers from the analisys to paralisys types.......and why certain "hand done" techniques defy explanation WRT accuracy/precision...

If there's anyway you can have a shooting board or "slave" pce,aka cover's.....you'll be way ahead on you saw.So,put a backer pce of stock not only under your frame pce,but on top as well.If you can encapsulate your stock.....while its being cut......these covers really go a long way twds stabilizing the blade.The best part of just about any cut is somewhere in the middle of that cut.

At the start of a cut,we see a little vibration......at the end or back of cut theres that ugly tearout.But right there in the middle,heck...looks pretty good.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Ooh...I see where you are going with that. I'll try it this afternoon


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Woodworking Mama said:


> Ooh...I see where you are going with that. I'll try it this afternoon


Another tip for using a compound miter saw, or a sliding compound saw, is to allow the blade to reach speed. Then with minimal effort, lower the blade into the stock and allow a smooth downcut. While the blade is down, allow it to stop, and then remove moulding.

When pulling down, it's easy to exert side loads to the saw which can have some effect on it's course of action. If you are cutting both 45° members to a corner, and swinging the table/saw from the cut on one side to the cut on the other, you may be depending on the detent stops. If there is a slight differential, that will show up in the final fit.

You could make a jig for a CMS/RAS/TS/sled, that holds stock at a 45°.


















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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

I made a sled for my table saw and made my first two cuts and then my lights flickered and the table stopped. 

Needless to say I have a new 10" table saw and I will use it for the first time tonight. So much for that sled! I can salvage it, but I didn't even really get to use it with the last table.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Oooopps*

You don't ever want to have the tablesaw and the lights on the same circuit.
Reason no. 1 if the power goes out from natural causes or a power outage, the lights and the saw stop and you're in the dark...pretty much, not safe. 
Reason no. 2 your saw may trip the breaker and then the saw and the lights go out because of an overload. The saw needs very bit of power it can get on a 15 amp circuit and that's why 20 amps is the preferred size. Lighting circuits are 15 AMPs and when you add the power requirements (wattage) of both the lights and the saw and you are underpowered. A dedicated 15 AMP circuit is better than a combined lighting circuit.

Did the sled "jam" on the first cuts? You should raise the blade slowly as you push the sled along for the first cut into the base. Then if shouldn't bind on the blade, but it may be binding in the miter slots... further investigation is needed.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Woodworking Mama said:


> I made a sled for my table saw and made my first two cuts and then my lights flickered and the table stopped.
> 
> Needless to say I have a new 10" table saw and I will use it for the first time tonight. So much for that sled! I can salvage it, but I didn't even really get to use it with the last table.


What happened?








 







.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

I don't know what happened. Nothing electrical. I smelled a smell that was unfamiliar, looking back. Something with the motor, perhaps. I took the table apart to get to the motor and took out the "brushes" (?). A friend of a friend said they looked fine. Idk. Dad was in town and surprised me with a new one. If I get this fixed, or even if I don't, it'll probably just end up on craigslist. 

I needed a quick fix and this was the quickest there was. I hate to replace if a repair is possible.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> Did the sled "jam" on the first cuts? You should raise the blade slowly as you push the sled along for the first cut into the base. Then if shouldn't bind on the blade, but it may be binding in the miter slots... further investigation is needed.


No jamming or dragging. Cuts were smooth and a nice, perfect 45 degree cut. Just lost juice after the last cut. Weird.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Is anything else on that circuit? I had a second story light that kept going out whenever I turned on the vacuum cleaner. It turned out that light, the outlet I was using, and the big freezer in the basement were on the same circuit.... it could be someone tried to make microwave popcorn while you were making that third cut or something.


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## Woodworking Mama (Sep 3, 2013)

Only one overhead fluorescent light. Nothing else was even plugged in. I have run that saw hundreds of times before in the same setup


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