# raised panel glue up



## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I am planning to build a stereo cabinet. I found one online that looks very close to what I had in my head. The difference in that and the one I want to build is that I was thinking about doing raised panels for the sides.

http://www.onlineamishfurniture.com/zoomify.asp?catalogid=3879&image=http://www.amishfurnitureimages.com/images/forksvalley/fve-026-c.jpg

My question is about glue joints for the raised panels. I have a few options and I am pretty sure I know which one if best but I don’t know if it’s over kill.

Options
1. Biscuits
2. Dowels
3. Just glue
4. MLCS has a glue joint router bit for about 30 bucks.

I have used the first 3 methods and they have worked fine so far. I am pretty sure the glue joint router bit is going to be the best but is that overkill?

http://mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_door.html#glue_joint_anchor

I think have decided to go with padauk as the material.


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

Keep in mind that you will have a groove all the way around the stiles and rails for the raised panel to fit into...usually 1/4" by 1/4" to 3/8" deep.
Option #3 is out of the question (as far as I'm concerned)
The rest of the options will force you to make a stopped groove a little beyond where the stile and rail meet to allow for this groove in the corners. If you take the groove all the way to the ends of the stiles and rails, it will interfere with all other options, except a raised panel bit set.

Make sense?
Edit: The other option is to make grooves all the way down your stiles and rails and then cut a tenon to fit into the groove on the rails. Makes a nice neat job and has more surface glueing area.


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## John in Tennessee (Jun 11, 2008)

*How so you create the raised panel?*

I think I know but I'll ask anyway..


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

Rob said:


> Keep in mind that you will have a groove all the way around the stiles and rails for the raised panel to fit into...usually 1/4" by 1/4" to 3/8" deep.
> Option #3 is out of the question (as far as I'm concerned)
> The rest of the options will force you to make a stopped groove a little beyond where the stile and rail meet to allow for this groove in the corners. If you take the groove all the way to the ends of the stiles and rails, it will interfere with all other options, except a raised panel bit set.
> 
> ...


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Glue only on a raised panel glue up is the preferred method. It is an incredibly strong joint and you don't have to worry about biscuits and dowels getting caught up in the machined portion of your raised panel.
Hopefully you have a matched set of rail and stile bits for your router/shaper to allow you to create the frame without multiple setups at the router table.

Ed


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree with EDP...for the pannels...properly joined pannel boards will glue up just fine. And they should be floating freely in the pannel frame. Rick


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

My bad...I read this entirely wrong. I thought he was asking about joining the stiles and rails.
Sorry 'bout that.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I just use glue and clamps (and cauls).


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

Ok so no biscuits, no dowels, no glue joint just glue... I thought for sure you all would say to use the glue joint bit. 

I have a cheap raised panel bit set that I bought on sale at harbor freight. I used it for the first time last weekend.

For a $25 bit set it worked really well, I was surprised.

David


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I have just finished making 8 raised panels for a current project.

I much prefer using biscuits. It not only assists in making a stronger joint, which though good may not be necessary, but it also assists in getting the pieces lined up properly and not slipping as they are clamped. This was especially helpful in the days before I had a planner to make all pieces of wood the same thickness.

Sometimes I like to use mulpiple small strips for the glue up. Just like the look. Hard to keep these properly level without the biscuits. Do not have to use any large biscuits, number 3 will do nicely.

G


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

GeorgeC said:


> Hard to keep these properly level without the biscuits. Do not have to use any large biscuits, number 3 will do nicely.
> 
> G



Number 3? What size is that? I'm only familiar with FF, 0, 10, 20.

I only use biscuits as a last resort for joinery. The fact that the dry biscuit slips into the biscuit mortise allows enough movement for misalignment. There has to be a slip allowance for the glue. I wouldn't use them for panel glue ups. I would just use glue and clamps, and cauls. I would also have ready to use many wedges, which will insure alignment.

On long or multiple glue up procedures, getting all of them in place can be a hassle with getting the glue and biscuits where it's supposed to go. Here in South Florida, I get a wide variance in the biscuit size with the varied humidity changes that can occur in a day. 

I only use them for a restraint to keep items from pulling apart, nothing structural. I've had situations where the expanded biscuit read through to the surface, leaving a slight "bump". I would use splines in place of biscuits. There's more of a selection for the spline and size. As for plunging the mortise, if you don't have a plunge router, they can be done with just tipping a fixed base. Slotting cutters can also be used. For square blunt end mortises (blind splines), a slot cutter can be used and then chisel out the ramps (for edge mortises). For face mortises, a straight bit can be used, and the end of the spline can be shaped. This is how I did them before there were plunge bases.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I’ll probably just use the glue and not worry about the biscuits. I have never had a biscuit cause a bump but just incase I’ll skip that step on this project. For the most part, I use Titebond III for everything I glue. I’m a little slow so that little bit of extra open time is good for me.

I got to thinking last night. I haven’t seen many stereo cabinets with raised panel sides. I am going to have a lot of weight in this thing. I would image it will be strong enough but I figure I better ask the professionals.

I plan to build three 5’x22” raised panel walls/doors/sides/whatever. What is the best way to attach the completed panels at the edges to make the frame? I was initially thinking I would use biscuits or dowels. Then I got thinking maybe rabbits are better. I know there are a ton of locking router bit sets too, but I don’t know if they are necessary. What would you all do?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

djonesax said:


> I plan to build three 5’x22” raised panel walls/doors/sides/whatever. What is the best way to attach the completed panels at the edges to make the frame? I was initially thinking I would use biscuits or dowels. Then I got thinking maybe rabbits are better. I know there are a ton of locking router bit sets too, but I don’t know if they are necessary. What would you all do?



For large raised panel doors there are options. You could make the panel from the same specie of 3/4" hardwood plywood and edge band the perimeter with solid wood to profile the panel with the edge detail. That way, you'll have no end grain to deal with, mitered corners and you can glue in the panel making for a rigid door. This procedure would also eliminate any movement issues, the glue up process, and may stay flatter than a glued up panel.

In doing this a different specie of wood can be used for the panel edging, creating an interesting look.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

There are several ways to make raised pannels. All need some sort of frame. Some pannels are flush with the frame and some are about 1/8th" to 3/16ths"s proud. For the frames...most are cut with matched style and rail cutters. There are other ways of milling...for instance...a table saw set at 10 to 15 degrees with the work piece perpendicular to the table can be done but is vary risky free-hand! And not recommended without some sort of fixture to hold the pannel. Then, you could use a router in a table with raised pannel cutters...some pannel raising bits will not fit in some routers. Note!!...the bigger the bit...the faster the outside cutting edge will spin!! Some spin so fast it is scary! Then...you need a variable speed controll box to slow the bit down. With that set-up...it is best to take shallow cuts for each pass. Now, back to the question of raised pannels on a standard bookcase...you need to consider the inside shelving...with pannel in frame...the back side usuallt has an offset (frame to pannel). How are your shelves going to meet the sides? OK, say you build the sides...as frame and pannel...now you need to rabbit the back edge for the back...and dado near the bottom for a floor...now comes the facing...How are you going to hide the joint line on the side? My friend...you need a plan! My advise is to build the cabinet with an applied panneling on the outside...mitering the facing into the side styles...use 1/4" rabbited pannel mold in transition from frame to 1/2" pannel. Rick


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A very simple cabinet construction would be to make the side panels as described in my last post, and rabbet them into a R&S frame if that is the look you want. The backside of the panel is then flat (flush), the panel is glued in. That will then be the end of the cabinet. No need to make a separate end. That would be a waste of money and time.


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

A warning on using a glue joint bit for glueing up panels, most times when you go to raise the panel, ie cut the angles, that joint becomes quite prominent and sometimes looks like a finger joint and ugly:thumbdown:


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

skymaster said:


> A warning on using a glue joint bit for glueing up panels, most times when you go to raise the panel, ie cut the angles, that joint becomes quite prominent and sometimes looks like a finger joint and ugly:thumbdown:


I have never seen this problem and have made many of these panels, including 8 within the past week. If you do not like glue joints, how do you join the boards?

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

GeorgeC said:


> I have never seen this problem and have made many of these panels, including 8 within the past week. If you do not like glue joints, how do you join the boards?
> 
> George



I think the reference was a "glue joint bit", not just a glue joint. I use just two jointed edges, whether they are just good edges ripped on a TS, or jointed flat and straight on a jointer. They get glued and clamped.

You mentioned a number 3 biscuit size. I lead a sheltered life, can you fill me in?


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

skymaster said:


> A warning on using a glue joint bit for glueing up panels, most times when you go to raise the panel, ie cut the angles, that joint becomes quite prominent and sometimes looks like a finger joint and ugly:thumbdown:


Good point. I did think about that. It would look either very strange or very cool I guess depending on the project.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

pianoman said:


> There are several ways to make raised pannels. All need some sort of frame. Some pannels are flush with the frame and some are about 1/8th" to 3/16ths"s proud. For the frames...most are cut with matched style and rail cutters. There are other ways of milling...for instance...a table saw set at 10 to 15 degrees with the work piece perpendicular to the table can be done but is vary risky free-hand! And not recommended without some sort of fixture to hold the pannel. Then, you could use a router in a table with raised pannel cutters...some pannel raising bits will not fit in some routers. Note!!...the bigger the bit...the faster the outside cutting edge will spin!! Some spin so fast it is scary! Then...you need a variable speed controll box to slow the bit down. With that set-up...it is best to take shallow cuts for each pass. Now, back to the question of raised pannels on a standard bookcase...you need to consider the inside shelving...with pannel in frame...the back side usuallt has an offset (frame to pannel). How are your shelves going to meet the sides? OK, say you build the sides...as frame and pannel...now you need to rabbit the back edge for the back...and dado near the bottom for a floor...now comes the facing...How are you going to hide the joint line on the side? My friend...you need a plan! My advise is to build the cabinet with an applied panneling on the outside...mitering the facing into the side styles...use 1/4" rabbited pannel mold in transition from frame to 1/2" pannel. Rick


I was planning to make the raised panels sides with a rail and style panel bit set. I wasn’t too concerned about the glue joint for the sides but that is a good idea I may do that. It will look much cleaner your way. When you say "applied pannel", so you mean to glue the frame and panel to another flat panel of some sort?

I am trying to decide whether I want to mortise and tenon the panel frame into the base. Or cut a dado like you said and then trim it off at the bottom like the one in the picture.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> A very simple cabinet construction would be to make the side panels as described in my last post, and rabbet them into a R&S frame if that is the look you want. The backside of the panel is then flat (flush), the panel is glued in. That will then be the end of the cabinet. No need to make a separate end. That would be a waste of money and time.


This is almost exactly how I was planning to build the cabinet with the exception of rabbiting the backs so that the panel and frame will be flush. 

My in experience definitely comes out in my questions. I have been getting a lot of good feed back about how to create the panels and I’ve gotten some good ideas. Due to bad terminology, I realize now that I did not ask my question properly but I think I have found the answer from all the posts from everyone. Did I mention that this forum rocks!!! What I called a frame for lack of a better word was the 3 raised panels and R&S frame glued together to make a cabinet. I should have called it a cabinet I suppose. When I mentioned the biscuits and dowels I was talking about for the corners of the cabinet.

So my plan again now that I can explain it better. Maybe still not properly but bare with me. J 


Glue up to make panels using just glued edges.
Cut panels to size and using raised panel bit on router table to make the panels
Cut and route rail and stiles on router table
Glue everything up with the panel rabbit’d into the R&S frame
Miter the edges of the R&S frames
Dado the R&S frames for the shelves
Mortise and tennon the R&S frames to the base OR dado for a bottom shelf and trim off for a base around the bottom.
Glue up for the top
Attaché top with dowels and glue.


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## red (Sep 30, 2008)

I always used #20 biscuits to help with alignment. You just have to be careful as to where you place them so they don’t end up in the raised panel. Red


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Kreg screw system would work well for attaching top and base...just a thought! Rick


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