# Newbie Question on raised panel doors



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Hi All

I'm venturing into making cabinet doors, bought a coping sled kit from Incra and a power feeder and I'm setting up the RAS to do the work of a shaper.

My question is about the door panels. Can I glue them up from smaller boards or do they need to be solid one piece?

My jointer is only 6 inch so I'd like to be able to use smaller width boards and then glue them together. Can I joint and plane 6" rough cut boards and then glue and clamp them into larger panels?

I plan to make the sticks and stiles out of maple and thought I'd use poplar for the panels. I'll be painting them until I get better at this. I'm starting with some doors for a downstairs bathroom cabinet.

Will they be OK later when it's time to take the edges off to make the raised panel or will they split apart?

JayArr


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## Pretender (Jun 22, 2019)

Yes you can make them out of multiple boards.
They will actually be more stable than using a single wide board,


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Whenever I have made raised panels, I always rip the boards down so they’re only about 3-4” wide. Like Mike above said, they tend to be more stable. When you’re ready for gluing up the panels, take a good look at the grain on each board and try different arrangements to see what looks the best. I also look at the end grain and flip every other board so the end grain isn’t all going in the same direction, again to minimize warpage. 
Mike Hawkins


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

JayArr said:


> Hi All
> 
> I'm venturing into making cabinet doors, bought a coping sled kit from Incra and a power feeder and I'm setting up the RAS to do the work of a shaper.
> 
> ...


If you are working with rough lumber the boards that are 6" or less you would be better off running the face of the wood over the jointer and flattening it before running it through a planer. Then surface all the wood to the same thickness and then joint the edges to make the glue joint. I usually make a glueup as big as the clamps I have will allow and then cut the widths I need once glued. If you make a good joint the panels shouldn't split later. 

You may not like to run coping and sticking with a radial arm saw. I did that when I went into business and only did one job. I found another way before doing another job. The vibration is like running a jackhammer. Makes for a lot of tearout. I think I had to replace a third of the parts just because of tearout.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm wondering how a coping sled and power feed fit in with using a radial arm as a shaper? Are you using molding head cutters? I'd be interested in a pic of your set up. There may be safety issues.

My advice is be careful. Is a router table an option for you?


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

I too would question using a radial saw for a shaper. Last set of doors I was making earlier this year almost cost me a finger using a router table. Had a raised panel cutter in it without a guard. Should have known better. I was using this cutter to shape some hard maple for casing and base molding. Last piece was only 3’ long and I made a second pass to try and get rid of a couple burn marks. Didn’t use the push blocks and the piece shot across the shop and ran my finger right into the cutter. Hand surgeon sewed it back together. Cost me $4K and a lot of grief. Be careful with your setups.
Mike Hawkins


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

firehawkmph said:


> I too would question using a radial saw for a shaper. Last set of doors I was making earlier this year almost cost me a finger using a router table. Had a raised panel cutter in it without a guard. Should have known better. I was using this cutter to shape some hard maple for casing and base molding. Last piece was only 3’ long and I made a second pass to try and get rid of a couple burn marks. Didn’t use the push blocks and the piece shot across the shop and ran my finger right into the cutter. Hand surgeon sewed it back together. Cost me $4K and a lot of grief. Be careful with your setups.
> Mike Hawkins


I've known several who were injured on a shaper, why I added guards when I built mine...


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

Dr. Roberts is being polite and circumspect. This is a hazardous operation. The danger of kickback when cutting the end grain on the raised panel is very high. The fixtures for this should be big, heavy, and completely cover the cutter. This is more important for small pieces than for large ones. As Steve Neul says, vibration is a problem, especially if it shakes something loose. 
This is a panel raising cutterhead being set up on a shaper. It will run at 3500rpm like a radial arm saw arbor, but the setup is much more rigid. 









The fence has a close fitting cut out for the cutter. If the edge splinters, the cut will jamb.









The coping sled is quite long and has a back block securely screwed to it. There are 2 drywall screws with their hard, sharp points protruding enough to bite into the edge of the workpiece. There is a tapered cleat at the leading edge set so any back slippage of the workpiece tightens it rather than loosens it..









This setup cuts the profile on the underside of the panel with the jig on top. After the ends are cut, the power feed is just lowered and the long grain cuts can be made.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

But..... most woodworkers don't have shapers.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

When you use a radial arm saw to shape it just means the motor is above the work instead of below it. There is nothing any more "unsafe" about it. It uses the Craftsman three blade moulding head and two sets of matching Corob knives for the rails and stiles. There is a guard over the moulding head so you can't get any fingers in there, once it's set up and the guard is lowered you can't even see the knives. There is less of the blade showing than a router table or a shaper so it's probably even safer (but a little harder to set up).

The power feeder will push the rails past the cutting head and the coping sled will hold the stiles while I do the matching ends. I've got a "Mr Sawdust" table on my RAS and am adding a miter slot across the length that the coping sled will run in. I'll take some pics when it's all set up.

I used the RAS and the moulding head a year or so ago to make custom door trim and baseboard, it worked very well for that. In particular it was easy to feed 8 foot lengths past the RAS head and my big 220V Craftsman had no trouble cutting in one pass. This time will be a little different, the lengths will be shorter and it will be maple instead of poplar but the power feeder and coping sled should make for decent, consistent cuts. I'm looking forward to it. 

If I can make a decent quality door with the tools I have (RAS, table saw, planer, jointer, bandsaw) then I'll be very, very happy.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> But..... most woodworkers don't have shapers.


Most _hobby / home shop_ woodworkers don't have shapers. 

IMHO everyone should have a few..

As to the op, I'm wondering about the RAS as well. It would be my last (by a long margin) choice for moulding cuts.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Jar944_2 said:


> Most _hobby / home shop_ woodworkers don't have shapers.
> 
> IMHO everyone should have a few..
> 
> As to the op, I'm wondering about the RAS as well. It would be my last (by a long margin) choice for moulding cuts.


I think your on the wrong forum. Try Woodweb... "IMHO everyone should have a few" Sound like Norm. We should all have 3 phase power, overhead sander, sliding table saw and a 50,000 Sq ft shop.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Lots of people are just plain afraid of a RAS. The claim it's dangerous and unsafe.

I've found it's sometimes just ignorance, often times I find out they've never used one and base their opinion on second hand stories that were told to them. Not always, but often.

I ran my RAS with a 12" blade and no guards for the first ten years simply because I bought it used and it didn't come with any guards. I developed a very healthy respect for it, I pay attention to it when it's on and I wait patiently for it to stop before I turn away. I've purchased and read several books on what you can and can't do with a RAS. I don't feed small stock, I use a push block, not a push stick and I have the correct negative hook blade on it.

I keep looking at the Jessem router table lift but I just can't figure out why I'd want to spend $$ building a router table when I can put the moulding head on the RAS and do the same thing.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm scared of anything with a motor, switch and blade.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Rebelwork said:


> I think your on the wrong forum. Try Woodweb... "IMHO everyone should have a few" Sound like Norm. We should all have 3 phase power, overhead sander, sliding table saw and a 50,000 Sq ft shop.


Your story reminds me of "The American Woodshop" with Scott Phillips, a television show on PBS. My spouse and I have a nickname for him which I won't repeat here. We watch his show less for learning and more for the entertainment value. Scott's show seems to be targeted at home hobbyists, but few people in his audience have the expensive equipment and huge shops (yes, plural) that he uses on his show. Given a choice between a simple approach that most home hobbyists could replicate with their basic woodworking toolsets at home, versus a more complex approach that uses expensive specialized tools, Scott will follow the approach that lets him play with the expensive toys.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The problem is we all wish we had this and that. A lot of hobbyist woodworkers don't have woodworking bsckgrounds, money to throw up for large machines or the skill that follows.

I'm fortunate to have a skilled background, but even I can't afford all the tools I had at work, I had to learn "how" with less to overcome this.

This was my thinking with a nice bass boat for years. I felt I had to have a fiberglass boat and a truck to pull it. Bottom line is I catch fish in my $300 boat

I remember a tournament on tv where a guy registered in a tournament with a pontoon. He didn't win, but he ranked.

At work we had a hog to do crowns on panels. I have to do it the hard way by taking the one side of the fence off and move the panel along to get the profile. Do what you gotta do..


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

JayArr said:


> Lots of people are just plain afraid of a RAS. The claim it's dangerous and unsafe.
> 
> I've found it's sometimes just ignorance, often times I find out they've never used one and base their opinion on second hand stories that were told to them. Not always, but often.
> 
> ...


You do this long enough you are going to hurt, period. I can tell from your post and the fact you would even consider using the saw without a guard, you’re living on borrowed time with that mentality, friend.

No offense intended, but honestly you are overconfident, and believe me that will get you in trouble. This is a dangerous hobby. I won’t go into details, but there is a reason I just sold both my Jets and bought a SawStop (no major injury just a close call). 40 years and thousands of cuts on a table saw - all 10 fingers minus the side of a thumb - that was 35 years ago when I didn’t know what the hell I was doing and did not respect the machine.

Having owned them, and tried using them for the various purposes, I can say without a doubt a radial arm saw IS THE most dangerous machine in a shop, period. 

I don’t mean to sound berating or melodramatic. I and many others here know in 2 milliseconds your life can be changed forever.

Re: a router table and lift. I was in the camp of never going to spend that much money for a setup. I started with a Router Razer, and built a big kitchen with it (meh….). When the router died I went to a Triton, only because I wanted to avoid spending $350 for a lift (again, meh…)

I recently finished a very large kitchen re-skin. 30 doors, 20 drawer fronts, 20 new drawers. Lift, motor, remote speed control and fence I’m close to $1k in it. But that kitchen project proved to me what I have invested in the lift and motor is with every penny. That doesn’t mean you have to have one, it all depends on how much work you’re doing. 

Good luck with project, triple check your set up taking shallow passes is always safest.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Rebelwork said:


> I'm scared of anything with a motor, switch and blade.


That’s a good attitude to have.

You left out “brain” - that where most of my problems come from 🤯


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> You do this long enough you are going to hurt, period. I can tell from your post and the fact you would even consider using the saw without a guard, you’re living on borrowed time with that mentality, friend.


Not true. Just simply not true. This can't be backed up with any statistics or proof, it's just an opinion and we all have them. Your are entitled to yours but ending a sentence with '*period.' *doesn't make it the truth. Questioning my mentality and then ending the sentence with "*friend.*" is pretty passive aggressive as well.

If you don't want to do this then don't but trying to pass off your opinion as a fact doesn't make regard you as an expert.

BTW... We're *all* living on borrowed time, living a very safe life won't keep you from dying, it just keeps you from living.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> I think your on the wrong forum. Try Woodweb... "IMHO everyone should have a few" Sound like Norm. We should all have 3 phase power, overhead sander, sliding table saw and a 50,000 Sq ft shop.


I agree we should all have native 3ph power a 52" tripple head wide belt and at least 5000 sqft. 50,000 is excessive for the home shop. Honestly a single head 37" widebelt is plenty for guys in their garage but a 52" would be nice.

Im on woodweb, it's a dead forum. Lots more activity on the Facebook cabinet maker groups.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

We had two 58 inch sanders... planer/sander and just a sander..Woodweb slowdown doesn't surprise me. I stopped going there because it was a piss-ing contest between cabinet makers.

When I worked in the shop I wasn't on forums during working hours. It's amazing how many use the Internet today just to gloat... I actually had a guy in Chicago, Illinois tell me if Id listen he'd teach me how to make money as a cabinet ,aker. I blew him off and he's not in business today.. Everybody started shops 2000+ everyone thought they were the "golden child". Many didn't survive..


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## laldog3 (Mar 20, 2011)

JayArr said:


> When you use a radial arm saw to shape it just means the motor is above the work instead of below it. There is nothing any more "unsafe" about it.


You're kidding right? 
The cutter head in a shaper is mounted below the table, meaning most of the cutter head IS NOT EXPOSED.
With the RAS, the *whole cutter head* is above the table, right there waiting for some minor slip to turn into a life-changing mishap.
I don't want to imply that the shaper is not a very dangerous machine that does not require extreme due diligence , but it is designed to do heavy duty edging such as cutting raised panels. 
I don't believe a RAS saw was designed for this, and my experience using one would make me hesitant to do so.
Please be careful.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

If you understand the physics of what happens when a hisg speed rotating cutter enters the workpiece, either from the top like a radial arm saw, or from the edge like a router or shaper , OR with a molding cutter in the radial arm saw you will be a safer woodworker.
I've seen this video of Dwyane Ellers making a short length of molding about 25 times and I'm always impressed with the creativity and care he goes about using the RAS and his other machines. There are guards and feather boards on almost every operation, and for good reason:





FWIW, I have used a dado set on a RAS, but never used a molding head, although I have several of them.
I rarely ever make projects with moldings, so that's why.
I've also watched this video several times just to learn more about how it's done:





If one is determined to use a radial arm saw as in this case, it's better to show the right way to do it than badger him into surrendering his intent. JMO
Showing the safest methods and means of doing it will instill that same consideration in the new operator, hopefully.
High speed rotating cutters of any type need to be given their due respect, something I've learned after many years of experience, some trail and some error.


This guy show one of the "advantages" in using the tilting cutter feature on a radial arm saw, typically not possible on a standard spindle shaper:





FINALLY!
This is a dedicated raised panel cutter in a radial arm saw:


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> The cutter head in a shaper is mounted below the table,


Ummm... do you own a shaper? Have you ever actually used one?

The cutter head is above the table on a shaper, the MOTOR for it is below. 

The cutter head *must* be above the table or it cannot cut the stock - which is on top of the table - A cutter head below a table would be useless.

The big difference between a shaper and a RAS is that the motor is below the table on a shaper and above the table on a RAS. The cutter head is in exactly the same position.


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## laldog3 (Mar 20, 2011)

JayArr said:


> Ummm... do you own a shaper? Have you ever actually used one?
> 
> The cutter head is above the table on a shaper, the MOTOR for it is below.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have used a shaper. I wish I owned one.

Read my post again.

I said *most *of the cutter head IS NOT EXPOSED.

Umm, are you always this condescending?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

This is why I posted those videos!
Only the cutting edges should be exposed and all the rest of the arbor should be covered by a guard.
So, in that regard, it doesn't matter where the motor is located.
If a guy want to use a radial arm saw to make raised panels as shown in the latest video, that seems like a perfectly safe way to go about it.
Safety is what this is all about, isn't it?


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

I pulled that quote directly from your post - scroll up to post #7 and read what you typed.



> You're kidding right?
> *The cutter head in a shaper is mounted below the table*, meaning most of the cutter head IS NOT EXPOSED.


It's simply not true. The cutter head is *above* the table where it needs to be to cut the stock that is fed along the top of the table.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Here is how much of my cutting head is exposed when coping the stiles.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Here is how much of my cutting head is exposed when shaping the rails.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Sample Results:


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Starting out by posting the line "*You're kidding right?*" is demeaning and insulting. It passively aggressively lays out the idea that you think what I'm doing is so ridiculous that it's comical. This is NOT the Carnegie method of winning friends and influencing people.

If I am condescending it is because I'm tired of people with a thimble of experience telling me not to do something that I already do, based on what they read on the internet while their ass became the shape of their chair!

See how it feels to be insulted?

1: cutter heads are above the table, they cannot cut stock below the table, they must be up above it where the wood is.
2: there are guards on both machines so one is not safer than the other.
3: the RAS was designed to be a multi-use tool so - yes - it was designed to shape and mold and raise panels. There are lots of books on the subject and the manual that came with my saw specifically says it can do this.


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