# New shop, need advice for dedicated paint room



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Hey guys, I finally decided to forgo my home shop and move to a larger commercial style shop building. So this week will be spent getting every thing moved over and setup. I have three cabinet builds going at the moment as well, so I am very busy to say the least. My intentions are to setup a dedicated paint room in my new shop. I am looking for any suggestions and advice for building some stuff that can support my work pieces so that I can easily get them all laid out and have space for finishing. I plan to frame up two walls in a corner of this huge shop. Any suggestions? Will be spraying stain, poly, paint, primer, ect.


----------



## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

First and foremost is ventilation. This will need to be sized to the volume of the paint room. When you know the size, I am sure that someone on here knows the formula for correct size of ventilation system.

" I am looking for any suggestions and advice for building some stuff that can support my work pieces" Do not know what you are looking for here. What types of "pieces" and what do you want for support?

Now that you are getting into a formal commercial type of enterprise I am sure that there are many local ordinances that you will have to know and adapt to. 

George


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The only advice I have it get an actual spray booth fan to ventilate it. They are costly but not as much as getting blown up.


----------



## jorma (Feb 24, 2016)

Do not take too lightly what George C is discussing. 
I painted for 30 years in San Francisco CA and we CAN Have some pretty insane laws to deal with, but.......you may need to look at fire suppression systems which may include explosion proof light fixtures and switches. Just be aware of it.
But yes, as mentioned already, make sure you have good ventilation that meets the clean air standards of your locale. Fines for any of this type of thing can be a big deal. Ask me how I know.
good luck


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I had rolling tables at different heights. I could roll a cabinet in, spray top, bottom, sided and face all on the same table without moving the cabinet. After spraying, just roll out of the room and roll in the next one. 

I also made several different size Lazy Susans for the table tops for smaller pieces. That way you can spray and rotate the piece on the lazy susan without moving and dragging your spray lines. 

there is a lot that can be done in the way of spraying on Lazy Susans. For instance, I made small cubes with scrap MDF and plywood - some 6" cybes and some 12 " cubes. You can place a cube on a lazy susan and your smaller work piece on the cube. YOu just have to creative with your type of needs.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't spray a lot of cabinets or wood...*

I do spray a lot of auto and truck parts and pieces. So, what I say is from that stand point. Get the best HVLP spray gun you can afford, probably around $200.00 to $300.00 or more. Sata, Iwata, and Devilbiss are good brands. The reason is, they put more paint on the surface and less into the air than other guns. This will reduce the amount of product wasted and what gets into your filters.





Spray "areas" and spray "booths" are completely different animals and the cost of a good booth will knock you off your chair. 

Unless your product is fast drying, that will be the next issue ...where to put them all in a dust free environment .. until they dry? Especially having more than one large project going at the same time. Hooks, hangers and roller stands will all help with storing them.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

One area is overhead tracks.Look at how a well equipped dry cleaner supports their clothes.Especially from a door standpoint,doors hang from a screw/eye arrangement.Bypassing the whole flip handling thing.

Ceiling mounted tracks don't take up any real-estate.If positioned strategically they can also serve for curtain walls.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Danny870 said:


> Hey guys, I finally decided to forgo my home shop and move to a larger commercial style shop building. So this week will be spent getting every thing moved over and setup. .


Need to see what you have to work with before giving any suggestions. Got any pictures?


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

jorma said:


> Do not take too lightly what George C is discussing.
> I painted for 30 years in San Francisco CA and we CAN Have some pretty insane laws to deal with, but.......you may need to look at fire suppression systems which may include explosion proof light fixtures and switches. Just be aware of it.
> But yes, as mentioned already, make sure you have good ventilation that meets the clean air standards of your locale. Fines for any of this type of thing can be a big deal. Ask me how I know.
> good luck


No worries there. I live in a tiny town of less than 4,000 people in rural Arkansas. I did check with the local building inspector, but he told me as long as it had some sort of ventalation it would be fine. He even said that I would not need an inspection. Things here are rather backwards compared to what most of you guys have to deal with.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

I like the idea of using several rolling tables, but that may not be feasible in my situation. Right now I am leaning towards getting something that can be used like a clothing rack that I can hang cabinet doors to. I like that idea. Will probably check out the clothing racks at Wal-Mart and Target, unless you guys can suggest any one in particular? 

Will probably just build some saw horses with slats accross the top to support the cabinet parts. I like to sand, then paint or stain my cabinets before assembling them. 

Oh and in case I forgot to mention, this will be a cabinet shop.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Danno

I lived in central Ar. for almost 15 years and I know exactly what you are talking about. I lived in rural Faulkner County where there pretty much was no inspection other than to assess for tax purposes. I had my shop in LR and even there, a half-ass attempt at a finishing area was all that they cared about.

Where will your shop be located?


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

For spraying cabinet doors, I took a rolling table, which probably takes up less room than 2 saw horses, put my lazy susan on top. I wrapped and taped a piece of butcher paper on the top of an old coffee can. put the coffee can on the lazy susan. Layed the door, bottom side up on the coffee can and sprayed pre-cat lacquer or primer, whatever stage you are at. Then immediately, lifted the door with my fingers from underneath and placed it outside the spray area on another coffee can. After doing all your doors this way, come back and flip the tops over and do the tops of the doors the same way. 
If you are spraying precat, you can sand in 5 to 10 minutes and recoat in 15 minutes. I have rarely ever had to sand pre-cat. 
By using this method, you can get away with a small spray area, just do a lot of walking back and forth. With this set-up, you can spray and move the doors at a rate of one every 15 seconds. The lazy susan is made from scrap plywood and is not attached to the rolling table, just sits on it. Or you can use the saw horses with strips and sit the lazy susan on top of the strips. If you go with rolling tables, its a lot easier to work then lifting on and off saw horses. In addition, the rolling tables get used for a lot of other stuff. like sitting stuff on top of, or even moving the cabinets around.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Tony B said:


> Danno
> 
> I lived in central Ar. for almost 15 years and I know exactly what you are talking about. I lived in rural Faulkner County where there pretty much was no inspection other than to assess for tax purposes. I had my shop in LR and even there, a half-ass attempt at a finishing area was all that they cared about.
> 
> Where will your shop be located?


I am located in a small town roughly 30 miles north of Jonesboro. Very small community, but I routinely get business from Jonesboro.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Tony B said:


> For spraying cabinet doors, I took a rolling table, which probably takes up less room than 2 saw horses, put my lazy susan on top. I wrapped and taped a piece of butcher paper on the top of an old coffee can. put the coffee can on the lazy susan. Layed the door, bottom side up on the coffee can and sprayed pre-cat lacquer or primer, whatever stage you are at. Then immediately, lifted the door with my fingers from underneath and placed it outside the spray area on another coffee can. After doing all your doors this way, come back and flip the tops over and do the tops of the doors the same way.
> If you are spraying precat, you can sand in 5 to 10 minutes and recoat in 15 minutes. I have rarely ever had to sand pre-cat.
> By using this method, you can get away with a small spray area, just do a lot of walking back and forth. With this set-up, you can spray and move the doors at a rate of one every 15 seconds. The lazy susan is made from scrap plywood and is not attached to the rolling table, just sits on it. Or you can use the saw horses with strips and sit the lazy susan on top of the strips. If you go with rolling tables, its a lot easier to work then lifting on and off saw horses. In addition, the rolling tables get used for a lot of other stuff. like sitting stuff on top of, or even moving the cabinets around.


That is certainly a good idea, and one that I will consider. I do, however, really like the idea of using clothing racks. Not sure how I could attach the doors to hang down?? Lots of good ideas being thrown around, and I appreciate all of them!

I normally use 2 coats of water based Poly instead of lacquer. 
. I wonder how many coats of pre cat lacquer it would take to equal the two coats of poly from a durability and shine perspective? I was always under the impression that it would take 3-5 coats of pre cat lacquer to equal two coats of poly in the manor that I am using it. One thing that I seriously dislike about water based poly is that it takes forever to dry. Normally I give it 24 hours then come back and buff with either 0000 steel wool or 400g sand paper, then apply the final coat of poly. Would using pre cat lacquer in the semi gloss sheen be better?


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Danny870 said:


> ....I do, however, really like the idea of using clothing racks. Not sure how I could attach the doors to hang down??
> 
> Some use small eye hooks and wire. They cause additional problems
> like interrupted air flow from wires causes overspray shadows and the hooks themselves can cause dripping. Tony B
> ...


There is lots of reasons that industry goes with a particular routine or standard. If you are intending to actually make money, I would suggest you visit cabinet shops and see how it is done. Some cabinet shops build a shelf along a wall in the spray booth and just prop the doors against the wall at an angle and spray. I dont think it is a good as the coffee can routine, but is a tad faster without the walking. I personally go with the cans and walking.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*a slanted rack like this may work*










If you added cleats for shelves something like this would work, using both sides of course.



Danny870 said:


> That is certainly a good idea, and one that I will consider. I do, however, really like the idea of using clothing racks. Not sure how I could attach the doors to hang down?? Lots of good ideas being thrown around, and I appreciate all of them!


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Bill:*

The real trick is to make the rolling limber carts for painting and not fill them up with lumber.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When I do doors and drawer fronts I lay 20' long metal building angle on saw horses like is pictured. It reduces the contact with the surface on the other side and to prevent blocking I just line the edge with package sealing tape.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Tony B said:


> There is lots of reasons that industry goes with a particular routine or standard. If you are intending to actually make money, I would suggest you visit cabinet shops and see how it is done.


 
He has got this same advice from me previously.



This is NOT going to happen with this member. :thumbsup:


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

OnealWoodworking said:


> He has got this same advice from me previously.
> 
> 
> 
> This is NOT going to happen with this member. :thumbsup:


Well not exactly. Initially I was in a much small shop and that had some limitations, and while I did use poly on a few things instead of lacquer like I was advised, it was insignificant. Now that I have a large shop with plenty of room, I have taken on some bigger jobs to which managing my time is much more important, hence the reason that I am going to give pre cat lacquer a try. I know that I probably should have adopted it before now, but I was use to poly, and was very comfortable working with it. Now, I honestly don't have the time to wait on the drying time or poly, so I am going to gently ease myself into using it.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> When I do doors and drawer fronts I lay 20' long metal building angle on saw horses like is pictured. It reduces the contact with the surface on the other side and to prevent blocking I just line the edge with package sealing tape.


Now that looks like a great idea. I have been thinking about what someone mentioned above with regards to the clothing racks, and I am afraid that he is correct about the potential of drips and runs getting created by the wire and hooks used to hang the doors. So with all of that being said, I have decided to go ahead and build some shelves along two walls on which I can situate the upper and lower cabinets for painting & staining, then build several saw horses with wood slats or plywood for the doors. I will either get some of this construction material pictured in Steve's post above or use the coffee can method. I am sure that either would work fine.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Oh and one more thing...how is the price difference between semi gloss pre cat lacquer and semi gloss water based poly?


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Now that looks like a great idea. I have been thinking about what someone mentioned above with regards to the clothing racks, and I am afraid that he is correct about the potential of drips and runs getting created by the wire and hooks used to hang the doors. So with all of that being said, I have decided to go ahead and build some shelves along two walls on which I can situate the upper and lower cabinets for painting & staining, then build several saw horses with wood slats or plywood for the doors. I will either get some of this construction material pictured in Steve's post above or use the coffee can method. I am sure that either would work fine.


Today most folks use European hinges. There are hangers available which you can clip into the pocket hole to hang doors to spray. This way the doors could be sprayed on both sides at the same time. I just don't have a dedicated place to spray so that doesn't work for me.


----------



## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Danny870 said:


> Oh and one more thing...how is the price difference between semi gloss pre cat lacquer and semi gloss water based poly?




In my area precat lacquer runs about $30 a gallon. Talk to your supplier about setting up a commercial account, you should get somewhat of a price break.


Keep in mind you'll also need to keep lacquer thinner and retarder. Higher humidity will cause clear lacquer to blush, higher temperatures will cause lacquer to dry too quickly. Both conditions are controlled with retarder.


Lacquer thinner has gotten rather expensive. A 5 gallon can runs me about $60. I buy a utility grade lacquer thinner for cleaning, that runs about $35 for a 5 gallon can.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Today most folks use European hinges. There are hangers available which you can clip into the pocket hole to hang doors to spray. This way the doors could be sprayed on both sides at the same time. I just don't have a dedicated place to spray so that doesn't work for me.


Yes, I do actually intend to use Blum Europen style hinges. Actually, that is the only piece of equipment that I am lacking to be a full production cabinet shop. I am considering getting the euro hinge jig from Sommerfield Tools. I think that it can be purchased for less than $200, but don't quote me on that. Still trying to decide on how I can go about making the hinge holes. Off topic, I know. Sorry!


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Use a drill press with a fence*

From this thread:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/euro-hinge-drill-press-machine-61513/

Post no. 10 from MT Stringer:
I use the drill press to drill the 35mm holes. I have a template that is just a door stile that has been drilled for the hinge. I have one hole on each end of the stile set to where the hinge should be.

By using a fence clamped to the drill press table, I can adjust the template for proper registration. Then two stops allow me to drill all of the holes for one end, swap the stops and drill all of the others.

The pics show two different styles of the Blum soft close hinge that have been drilled with the same template.

It really is easy and I get a good fit.
Hope this helps.
Mike 
Attached Thumbnails


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Yes, I do actually intend to use Blum Europen style hinges. Actually, that is the only piece of equipment that I am lacking to be a full production cabinet shop. I am considering getting the euro hinge jig from Sommerfield Tools. I think that it can be purchased for less than $200, but don't quote me on that. Still trying to decide on how I can go about making the hinge holes. Off topic, I know. Sorry!


If you have a drill press you don't need the hinge jig, all you need is a 35mm forsner drill bit. I just made a table with a fence to mount on my drill press. I have a line marked at 3" each side of center and I can drill both left and right holes on one setup.


----------



## keithchen (Mar 25, 2016)

Already you have taken pretty good decision. If you wanted to run Commercial style shop then your interest and .costs both will be increase rapidly


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> If you have a drill press you don't need the hinge jig, all you need is a 35mm forsner drill bit. I just made a table with a fence to mount on my drill press. I have a line marked at 3" each side of center and I can drill both left and right holes on one setup.


Do you think that the jig from Sommerfield Tools is worth the $$ for someone doing a decent amount of door production? I found a guy locally that has a small, older, Craftsman bench top drill press for $60. I guess that would be cheaper, but I have zero experience in making jigs and such for the drill press.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A drill press fence....*



Danny870 said:


> Do you think that the jig from Sommerfield Tools is worth the $$ for someone doing a decent amount of door production? I found a guy locally that has a small, older, Craftsman bench top drill press for $60.* I guess that would be cheaper, but I have zero experience in making jigs and such for the drill press.*


We kinda went over some jigs on some other posts. You will really need to up your game when it comes to making jigs IF you are going to get into production quatities. 

A "jig" is a stop that is secured to a base to allow a repeated cut or operation to be exactly the same each time. It is not complicated when you think about it. The fence on a drill press jig locates the work the same distance from the drill each time, but you can slide the work right or left to stops OR to marked lines on the base either way. If the doors are varying lengths, then lines may be better. Holes with a dowel will work, but label them for the distance if there are more than one.

It's a mindset that you have to get into when making a jig.... where do I want the holes, how far in from the edge and how far in from each end.

Here's a view from under the drill press table. There is a "U" shaped plywood piece that is traced and cut out to fit exactly around the table OR you can use separate strips and screw then down. Then the base is turned over and the fence is set back from the drill center the desired distance and screwed down.

Like this:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Do you think that the jig from Sommerfield Tools is worth the $$ for someone doing a decent amount of door production? I found a guy locally that has a small, older, Craftsman bench top drill press for $60. I guess that would be cheaper, but I have zero experience in making jigs and such for the drill press.


If you had to drill hinge holes from time to time away from your shop I think it would be worth having. For production work it would be too time consuming. This is why those of us that don't have a hinge boring machine use a drill press. 

What model bench top drill press is it. The one I have is considered a bench top model and it's barely has enough hp to drill hinge holes. Just keep in mind it takes a bit of power to drill a 35mm hole. The jig I use is very simple. It's just made where I can take it off to use the drill press for other purposes. I just started with a piece of MDF for the top and put some brackets on the underside so it can quickly set it into place on the drill press table. The only thing fancy about it is I made the fence with a hollow space to keep chips from building up against the fence. It's just set up centered with the bit and has marks how far you want to have the hinge from the end of the door.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Danny870 said:


> Actually, that is the only piece of equipment that I am lacking to be a full production cabinet shop. !


 
LOL! :thumbsup:


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

OnealWoodworking said:


> LOL! :thumbsup:


LoL, full production...that may be a bit of a stretch. What I should have said is: that is basically all that I need to do what I am trying to do. LoL, I laughed when I went back and read what I posted!


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> If you had to drill hinge holes from time to time away from your shop I think it would be worth having. For production work it would be too time consuming. This is why those of us that don't have a hinge boring machine use a drill press.
> 
> What model bench top drill press is it. The one I have is considered a bench top model and it's barely has enough hp to drill hinge holes. Just keep in mind it takes a bit of power to drill a 35mm hole. The jig I use is very simple. It's just made where I can take it off to use the drill press for other purposes. I just started with a piece of MDF for the top and put some brackets on the underside so it can quickly set it into place on the drill press table. The only thing fancy about it is I made the fence with a hollow space to keep chips from building up against the fence. It's just set up centered with the bit and has marks how far you want to have the hinge from the end of the door.


I think that I was trying to make it much more complicated than it actually is. I have been spoiled by having access to the hinge boring machine at my employer, which is awesome by the way. I have built several jigs over the past couple of weeks. Still need to pick up a drill press, and make a jig for boring hinge holes. 

Sorry for going so far off topic, hope the mods don't get mad. Anyway, thanks for all the helpful advice from you guys! Now, back to "wood finishing". LoL


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Today most folks use European hinges. There are hangers available which you can clip into the pocket hole to hang doors to spray. This way the doors could be sprayed on both sides at the same time. I just don't have a dedicated place to spray so that doesn't work for me.


Can you tell me what these hangers are called and where can they be purchased? These would be nice to use for hanging the doors to be finished from something similar to a clothing rack, but I am worried that they might induce runs, drips, ect


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

So right now I have two airless paint sprayers. One is a Gracco and the other is a Krouse & Becker from HF. Surprisinglay, the Krouse & Becker has turned out to be pretty good. I plan to leave my Gracco setup for spraying white primer, exclusively, for the jobs that are being painted white, which seem to be quite a few. I plan to use the Krouse & Becker for spraying pre cat lacquer, although it will have to be setup and cleaned out for each job independently, as it is my understanding that I can not leave lacquer in it due to the nature of the lacquer itself. 

I need to pick up a new gun for my Gracco, and was curious to see what you guys might recommend for this? Are the guns available at Hone Depot and Lowe's a very good bang for the buck? They seem to run around $115 +/-.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*cabinet door "plugs" for spraying*

These will work:
http://www.rockler.com/35mm-paint-plugs

with built in hooks for hanging:
http://www.rockler.com/sure-hooktrade-360-12-pack


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Danny870 said:


> Can you tell me what these hangers are called and where can they be purchased? These would be nice to use for hanging the doors to be finished from something similar to a clothing rack, but I am worried that they might induce runs, drips, ect


There are many different clips avalable These look as simple as you can get. They call them Euro Finishing Clip. http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/Euro-Hinge-Finishing-Clip-3p10005.htm


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

By the way, how many square feet are you starting out with?


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Tony B said:


> By the way, how many square feet are you starting out with?


Tony, right now I have around 2, 800sq/ft. The shop that I am renting is huge, and I only rent half of it, there is a cheap/dinky wall right in the middle that separates the two sides, and the building owner basically keeps junk on the other side, and is not planning to actively market it to rent out by any one else. He told me that for an extra $300 per month he would knock the wall out and rent the entire space to me sometime in the future, if I ever needed it.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

That is a nice size for starting out. 
Most people starting out dont realize that they need more than they think. 
There is "tool room", "project room" and "work room". The projects often take up more room then the tools and 
also need the space to work in. This often gets overlooked when someone is starting out. You should have plenty of room for a while. 
The best part of a commercial shop is that you end up with tools that you never would have bought for a hobby shop.
BTW, I always set up a small area for "Tool Repair". That way, you have a dedicated work bench and it keeps WD40, metal shavings and grease away from the rest of the shop. With 2800 sq ft, you will end up building lots and lots of rolling carts. 
I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Tony B said:


> That is a nice size for starting out.
> Most people starting out dont realize that they need more than they think.
> There is "tool room", "project room" and "work room". The projects often take up more room then the tools and
> also need the space to work in. This often gets overlooked when someone is starting out. You should have plenty of room for a while.
> ...


Thanks Tony! Having spent the last several years in a production shop, I knew that I would need a significant amount of space for those exact reasons. Honestly, out of everything that you mentioned, having enough space for the cabinets to be stored between the time that I build and finish them, and when they go out the door, is very important.


----------



## Danny870 (Oct 7, 2015)

Something else that I want to get opinions on from any of you cabinet builders, how do you guys feel about doing the sanding & staining/painting when the pieces are cut and dado'd and the face frames are already assembled but the cabinets are not fully assembled yet, versus doing all of the sanding followed by staining/painting the finished cabinets?


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Have you found a Box Truck yet? 
Check with Rider or Budget or anyone that rents moving trucks. That is where you will probably get your best deal. When these companies want to get rid of a truck, they just want it gone. Call up their main number and they will tell you how to get in touch with the right people.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Danny870 said:


> ...., how do you guys feel about doing the sanding & staining/painting when the pieces are cut ................ but the cabinets are not fully assembled .....versus doing all of the sanding followed by staining/painting the finished cabinets?


I always did all of the finish work after the cabinets/furniture were assembled. generally, all of the stain will be on the outside and clear coats on the inside. Everyone has their own philosophy on wht they do it their way. For me, by staining and finishing before assembly, you risk the integrity of the future glue joints as well as bang up the finish on the inside and shelves while assembling.
After all, if you buy good grade plywood and lumber, there should be little to virtually no sanding required on the inside - just go and blow. If by chance, you forget to wear a respirator while inside spraying lacquer, just enjoy the buzz. LOL
I always bought the wide rolls of butcher paper at Sams Club for masking the inside of the cabinets when finishing the outside. Just 'blue tape' the inside edge of the frame and carcase and then tape the butcher paper to the the previous tape. Takes maybe 10 to 15 minutes to mask several cabinets.


----------

