# rewiring a tablesaw help please



## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

So I bought an old craftsman table saw for dirt cheap, it is from the 60's. It worked very well for about two months then It started shocking the hell out of me every time I touched it. I still used it because I needed it. Then one day the switch started smoking so I turned it off and haven't used it since. I got all the wiring and a new switch and rewired it I turned it on and the motor sounds funny and it throws a breaker within two minutes of turning it on.... Soooo any ideas? I think I may have shorted the motor out.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie,

The motor may not be shorted, but there was a short before you changed the switch.

It sounds like the motor start capacitor is not engaging. This is resulting in a large current draw on start-up, causing the breaker to trip.

Hard to help without seeing the wiring diagram. I hope the inside of the motor terminal box has one. Otherwise you may need to post the specific model of the saw for others who have the same to advise.

Also a picture of the switch wiring and motor terminal box wiring may help.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

What do you mean the motor sound funny? Does it rotate at all or just hum? Is the saw belt driven or direct drive?
Tom


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm not sure how to describe the sound , it just didn't sound right and it is belt driven and the diagram as far as what I did was simple. There are two prongs on the motor the white goes on top the black on bottom and then ground the ground wire. then to wire the switch I just ran the wires into the switch box and broke the black wire and wired it up to the two screws so the switch could break the circuit when it was turned off. I again grounded the ground wire to the ground screw. I ran the white wire all the way through the switch box with out breaking it then wired up the plug white wire to silver screw black to bronze colored screw ground to green screw


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> Tommie,
> 
> The motor may not be shorted, but there was a short before you changed the switch.
> 
> ...


Where would I find the start capacitor. What is the start capacitor? How do I fix it lol


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

the model number is 113-12070 and the manufacturing number is ks55cp-204

Thanks for any advise given


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Where would I find the start capacitor. What is the start capacitor? How do I fix it lol


A recent thread of a Public Service Announcement to provide information on the different types of motors.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/psa-information-ac-motors-48497/

If you have one "bump" on the side of the motor you have a start capacitor. This is to help reduce the inrush current.

If you have two "bumps" on the side of the motor you have a start and a separate run capacitor. The start is to lower inrush current the run is for efficiency.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Be careful when removing the capacitor. If it is good it can deliver a shock to you even with power removed. To remove it disconnect power and take a screw driver and short out the two terminals. This will discharge the capacitor.
Tom


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Where would I find the start capacitor. What is the start capacitor? How do I fix it lol


There was a recent thread on motors. If I recall the capacitor was not broken but was not engaging.

I have to see if I can find it.

Do not remove the capacitor until you have eliminated other potential root causes.

Chaincarver Steve did an excellent thread on troubleshooting motors. Please look at this while I try and find another thread on motor problems.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/repair-your-bandsaw-other-motor-crash-course-46405/


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Dave Paine said:


> There was a recent thread on motors. If I recall the capacitor was not broken but was not engaging.
> 
> I have to see if I can find it.
> 
> ...


Dave I remember seeing that thread. If I remember right the switch that is closed on starting and opens when the motor reaches a certain speed had dirty contacts. 
Tom


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

wow guys thanks for all the help I don't think it is the connectors but I will try that and here are some pics of the motor. Also I looked for a bump on the motor and couldn't find one... Am I overlooking it? Or am I just blind


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tommie Hockett said:


> wow guys thanks for all the help I don't think it is the connectors but I will try that and here are some pics of the motor. Also I looked for a bump on the motor and couldn't find one... Am I overlooking it? Or am I just blind


The capacitor can be found inside where you see the red outline. The housing unscrews from the motor case. 
.
















 







.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*call these guys*

http://local.yahoo.com/details?id=18907136&stx=electric+motor+repair&csz=Gainesville+TX

Ask them what they would charge to "check out" a motor that has stopped working. Don't say anything about "smoke". Make an accurate diagram of the wires, their color and which terminal they are on. Then bring it over to them... you may have to leave it if they are busy, otherwise most shops will wire it up on the counter to test it.

THAT motor has suffered a lot already. It hasn't been cleaned out, is probably full of sawdust, and has been in a high moisture environment. So, they should also clean and inspect it. You got it for dirt, so don't expect it to run like diamonds.... just sayin". You may have to put $25.00 into it. There are moving contactor inside the round end plates and unless you know what you are doing you can muck them up.


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## Futurepast (Jun 18, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> http://local.yahoo.com/details?id=18907136&stx=electric+motor+repair&csz=Gainesville+TX
> 
> Ask them what they would charge to "check out" a motor that has stopped working. Don't say anything about "smoke". Make an accurate diagram of the wires, their color and which terminal they are on. Then bring it over to them... you may have to leave it if they are busy, otherwise most shops will wire it up on the counter to test it.
> 
> THAT motor has suffered a lot already. It hasn't been cleaned out, is probably full of sawdust, and has been in a high moisture environment. So, they should also clean and inspect it. You got it for dirt, so don't expect it to run like diamonds.... just sayin". You may have to put $25.00 into it. There are moving contactor inside the round end plates and unless you know what you are doing you can muck them up.


 
And that tag shows it can be wired for 110 or 220 volt which would be a different switch you would need a DPDT switch to wire 220.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Futurepast said:


> And that tag shows it can be wired for 110 or 220 volt which would be a different switch you would need a DPDT switch to wire 220.


 that may not be true. many dual voltage tools use switches that function in both 110 and 220 configurations. only the motor connections and plug need to be changed. i believe c-mans used such switches. the OM would confirm it.

BTW,* tommie hockett*, nice key way (nail) on that motor pulley. must make for some interesting rotational dynamics when the motor is activated.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> The capacitor can be found inside where you see the red outline. The housing unscrews from the motor case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Well I feel stupid. I know nothing about motors I thought that that was just so you could see the name. I should stop typing now before I make myself sound even more ignorant. Thanks Cabbie.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

toolguy1000 said:


> that may not be true. many dual voltage tools use switches that function in both 110 and 220 configurations. only the motor connections and plug need to be changed. i believe c-mans used such switches. the OM would confirm it.
> 
> BTW,* tommie hockett*, nice key way (nail) on that motor pulley. must make for some interesting rotational dynamics when the motor is activated.



Well That is what we call southern ingenuity lol. So I'm not really understanding about the switch this is all Greek to me. Did I do something wrong with it?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> So I'm not really understanding about the switch this is all Greek to me. Did I do something wrong with it?


Some basic questions.

a) Does the motor turn freely? If not remove the belt and try again. I am seeing some rust and it is possible something is seized.
b) With the belt removed try starting the motor. If it does not immediately turn it off, no sense in waiting for the breaker to trip.
c) Can you try connecting to another circuit. Just trying to eliminate easy variables.
d) If the motor turns freely, how about a picture of the switch as it is presently wired.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Found the other thread*

Tommy, this is the other thread I was thinking about.

Take a look. In this case it was the internal centrifugal switch. Chaincarver Steve's thread should show you have to check this.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/craftsman-table-saw-motor-hums-but-wont-spin-47113/


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

A) Well I normally have to pull the belt to get it started
B) I will go try that as soon as I finish typing
C) again Greek ???
D) I will post a pic later

Thanks Dave for all your help and for the two threads I do appreciate it


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Looking at your pictures it looks like the blue wire is connected to the motor housing. It may just be the way it looks in the picture but just wanted to make sure it is connected to a motor terminal.
Tom


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

TomC said:


> Looking at your pictures it looks like the blue wire is connected to the motor housing. It may just be the way it looks in the picture but just wanted to make sure it is connected to a motor terminal.
> Tom


That's my phone pic for ya...It's the green wire, the ground wire is that not a good place to ground it?


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Tommie Hockett said:


> That's my phone pic for ya...It's the green wire, the ground wire is that not a good place to ground it?


I only see two wires in the picture, one white one and one blue one. I'm color blind but I normally don't have a problem with white and blue.
Tom


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> A) Well I normally have to pull the belt to get it started
> B) I will go try that as soon as I finish typing
> C) again Greek ???
> D) I will post a pic later
> ...


Tommie, the wires which run to a breaker are called a circuit. Hence the formal name of the breaker is a circuit breaker.

The suggestion was to plug into an outlet which is controlled by a different breaker. Unlikely the cause, but frequently an easy variable to eliminate.

I learned decades ago when troubleshooting try to confirm the easy things first. Many decades ago I had trouble starting a car. A friend said to check the ground wire from the battery to the car. I said it would not be the problem. I spent hours trying everything else then finally removed the ground wire connection at the car, sanded it clean, then voila, the car started. Lesson learned.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> Tommie, the wires which run to a breaker are called a circuit. Hence the formal name of the breaker is a circuit breaker.
> 
> The suggestion was to plug into an outlet which is controlled by a different breaker. Unlikely the cause, but frequently an easy variable to eliminate.
> 
> I learned decades ago when troubleshooting try to confirm the easy things first. Many decades ago I had trouble starting a car. A friend said to check the ground wire from the battery to the car. I said it would not be the problem. I spent hours trying everything else then finally removed the ground wire connection at the car, sanded it clean, then voila, the car started. Lesson learned.



OOOHHH OK yeah I have tried that also it didn't work:thumbdown:


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

TomC said:


> I only see two wires in the picture, one white one and one blue one. I'm color blind but I normally don't have a problem with white and blue.
> Tom


there is a white wire and a black wire and a green wire I wasn't trying to be rude bud just thought that my phone might be distorting the color


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok I'm about ready to kill this motor I got it off the saw and got the pulley off and that face plate off and was trying to pull the shaft out and it is almost there but now it's stuck. Any suggestions? Am I just completely stupid


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## Futurepast (Jun 18, 2012)

TomC said:


> Looking at your pictures it looks like the blue wire is connected to the motor housing. It may just be the way it looks in the picture but just wanted to make sure it is connected to a motor terminal.
> Tom


Looks that way to me also! Is there a third wire tucked behind we can't see? Because if there is, you may have the wires crossed because I see a white one going to a terminal, that would reverse everything and cause the motor to do weird things.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Ok I'm about ready to kill this motor I got it off the saw and got the pulley off and that face plate off and was trying to pull the shaft out and it is almost there but now it's stuck. Any suggestions? Am I just completely stupid


Tommie, your pictures show this to be a double ended motor.

I am thinking the shaft at the other end rusted sufficient to be tight in the bearing. You need to try knocking back the shaft and then lightly sand the rusty part. Also apply some WD-40 for lubricant.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

If you have hit either end of the shaft with a hammer, you may have mushroomed it or caused a burr that will have to be filed off. Also, all that rust will have to be sanded or wire-brushed off. The fit between the shaft and the bearings in the end bells are really tight. If that shaft isn't bare, undamaged metal, the end bells are going to get stuck.

Also guys, I can see the black wire that Tommie has connected. It's below the other two. The ground wire looked blue to me, too, but like Tommie said, it's the camera.

Tommie: I think you have your ground wire connected to a hole for the cover plate screw. There is probably another threaded hole under the plate that you can use.

Bill


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

First of all, never wire through the wiring opening, where the cover is supposed to go. There's a hole in the side (I can see it) and that's where the wire runs through. If you're going to use a cord, buy a take-all connector or some sort of cord connector that will hold the cord in place. Then put the cover on when you KNOW it's all wired correctly.

Your motor is dual voltage, according to the ID plate. That means the motor has two ways of wiring it, one for 115V and one for 230V. If it's wired for 115V it will draw 14 amps. If you're on a 15 amp breaker, it will most likely trip the breaker after a while, especially if there's another load on it. If it's wired for 230V it will draw only 7 amps.

In order to know how to wire it for the different voltages, you need to find the wiring schematic. It's usually on a stamped plate or on the back side of the coverplate. You HAVE to know this or you run a 50% chance of having it wired wrong for a given voltage. I've hooked up hundreds of motors and I NEVER guess at how to wire multi-voltage motors. But if this motor is from the 60's... (I started my electrical apprenticeship in the 70's)

It looks like there's a red wire buried behind the black wire just as it lands on the terminal. Where does that wire go? Can you get a better picture of the wiring housing?

If you are still trying to take the motor apart, why? Are you looking for fried coils? Do you know what they look like? Are you checking
the bearings? There's really not a lot of reasons to take the rotor out of the motor housing. I just named the big two.

When and if you put everything back together and you KNOW the motor is wired for 115V (120V now is the norm), make sure you run off a 20 amp circuit. If you've been running off a 15A circuit and it keeps tripping, you've probably fried the breaker and it's on its last leg. Find a 20A circuit and make sure it has 12 gauge wire coming from it.

Get the pics and let us know how its going.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Just for the heck of it, I looked up your motor number on Sears Parts Direct site. I got this: http://www.searspartsdirect.com/par.../00017882/00001?blt=06&prst=0&shdMod=11312070

There aren't many parts available from Sears anymore (of course, the motor may be 52 years old). I was hoping to find a manual with a wiring diagram but I think you'll have to enter the saw's model number for that. There's a nice exploded view there, though.

Bill


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Julie Mor said:


> First of all, never wire through the wiring opening, where the cover is supposed to go. There's a hole in the side (I can see it) and that's where the wire runs through. If you're going to use a cord, buy a take-all connector or some sort of cord connector that will hold the cord in place. Then put the cover on when you KNOW it's all wired correctly.


As far as where I putting the wires, I'm putting them exactly where the OEM wires were. There is a small bulge in the cover plate to let the cord out. And the reason I'm taking it all apart is so that I can clean years worth of sawdust build up out of it it is caked insed I figure if I get that all cleaned out it will probably run better. :thumbsup:


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## yank (Nov 15, 2006)

If you have to turn the belt to start the motor, then you have a BAD START CAPACITOR. Replace it. Cleaning the inside of the motor is a good option, as it will run cooler.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

so I found the culprit!!! I got the shaft out of it and cleaned out a few tons of oil and saw dust. Then I noticed it, one of the wires going to the capacitor had a decent size nick in it. I'm very glad I found it. Now I have a possibly stupid question. Is it possible that the capacitor is still good and I can just replace or splice that wire? There aren't any visible signs of damage to the capacitor itself, like bulges or cracks.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tommie Hockett said:


> so I found the culprit!!! I got the shaft out of it and cleaned out a few tons of oil and saw dust. Then I noticed it, one of the wires going to the capacitor had a decent size nick in it. I'm very glad I found it. Now I have a possibly stupid question. Is it possible that the capacitor is still good and I can just replace or splice that wire? There aren't any visible signs of damage to the capacitor itself, like bulges or cracks.


I think it's possible to check capacitors with one of the multimeters...like this. I can't tell you how to do it, but they come with instructions. I checked some fuses, and I don't remember how I did it.









 







.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I think it's possible to check capacitors with one of the multimeters...like this. I can't tell you how to do it, but they come with instructions. I checked some fuses, and I don't remember how I did it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can check with a multimeter. However, you need an analog type, not digital. Put the the meter on a high ohm scale. Discharge the capacitor with a screw driver. Place the two multimeter leads on the capacitor terminals. If the capacitor is good you should see the meter indicate a complete circuit(low ohm reading). Within a few seconds if the capacitor is good the read should indicate an open circuit ( very high ohms). This occurs because the ohm meter charges the capacitor. If you discharge the capacitor and never indicate a complete circuit you have a capacitor that is not taking a charge. This is about impossible to do with a digital meter because it happens so quickly.
Tom


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> so I found the culprit!!! I got the shaft out of it and cleaned out a few tons of oil and saw dust. Then I noticed it, one of the wires going to the capacitor had a decent size nick in it. I'm very glad I found it. Now I have a possibly stupid question. Is it possible that the capacitor is still good and I can just replace or splice that wire? There aren't any visible signs of damage to the capacitor itself, like bulges or cracks.


Sounds like you may have found the short. :thumbsup:

Capacitors may be bad without showing any external sign like a bulge or a crack. You will need to use an analog multi-meter as Chaincarver Steve explains in his thread, or take the motor to a repair place.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Another thing to look for with a capacitor is whether it's leaking oil. If there is any oil seeping around the seams you have a bad one.

At this point, why don't you put it together and see if it runs? If not, now you know how to change that capacitor.

Also, take a look and see if the capacitor is marked with it's specifications (voltage/farads). That way you know what you'll need for a replacement.

I'm wondering if that nicked wire wasn't what was causing you to get shocked. It also could have been blowing the breaker.

Have you checked the centrifugal switch contacts while you have it apart? Are you going to replace that really cool nail with a key from a hardware store? :laughing:

Bill


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## yank (Nov 15, 2006)

When in doubt, replace it. They are not expensive.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok I don't have the meter but I am planning on putting it back together to see if it will run... Operating on a very tight budget so I don't want to spend if I don't have to. So I will let yall know what happens tonight. Thanks for all the help this is a damn good forum. Also why replace the nail when it is the only thing on the motor that didn't break lol... I probably will


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> So I bought an old craftsman table saw for dirt cheap, it is from the 60's. It worked very well for about two months then It started shocking the hell out of me every time I touched it. I still used it because I needed it. Then one day the switch started smoking so I turned it off and haven't used it since. I got all the wiring and a new switch and rewired it I turned it on and the motor sounds funny and it throws a breaker within two minutes of turning it on.... Soooo any ideas? I think I may have shorted the motor out.


Don't stand in water 

Not sure how your going with it now but when I've don't things on the cheap I've gone to a tool repairer and asked to go dumpster diving. Get all sorts of parts etc.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Well I fixed the problem..... Kinda It doesnt blow a breaker anymore, but it makes a BAD noise pingpingpadingadingding I put it back together exactly the same way I took it apart... So now another problem that I need help with dadgumit:thumbdown:


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Well I fixed the problem..... Kinda It doesnt blow a breaker anymore, but it makes a BAD noise pingpingpadingadingding I put it back together exactly the same way I took it apart... So now another problem that I need help with dadgumit:thumbdown:


A noise means something is touching. We need pictures and more information.

Does this happen when rotating the motor by hand or only when powered.

If by hand, then something is mis-aligned or out of place. Could be the rotor is not in far enough or too far.

If when powered you may need to check the centrifugal switch again.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> A noise means something is touching. We need pictures and more information.
> 
> Does this happen when rotating the motor by hand or only when powered.
> 
> ...


Ok so I plugged it to show my dad today thinking he maybe. Able to fix it and it just started and all of a sudden made a pop and a wooshing sound and shot about an inch and a half flame out of. It dad said to take it to a shop to have it fixed or scrap it he looked at my shop smithmotor and said it was the same rating as my saw and to mout it and use it since I'm not using the shop smith


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Ok so I plugged it to show my dad today thinking he maybe. Able to fix it and it just started and all of a sudden made a pop and a wooshing sound and shot about an inch and a half flame out of. It dad said to take it to a shop to have it fixed or scrap it he looked at my shop smithmotor and said it was the same rating as my saw and to mout it and use it since I'm not using the shop smith


Wow, scary.

Sounds like the capacitor had what my old company would politically refer to as "an energy release". Sounds better than "an explosion".

Glad no injuries, perhaps just some laundry.

I hope the shop is able to repair this for you.


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> Wow, scary.
> 
> Sounds like the capacitor had what my old company would politically refer to as "an energy release". Sounds better than "an explosion".
> 
> ...


eeh nothing major made us jump lol. And I hope they can to but if not I reckon it needed a new motor anyway


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Ok so I plugged it to show my dad today thinking he maybe. Able to fix it and it just started and all of a sudden made a pop and a wooshing sound and shot about an inch and a half flame out of. It dad said to take it to a shop to have it fixed or scrap it he looked at my shop smithmotor and said it was the same rating as my saw and to mout it and use it since I'm not using the shop smith


That's starting to sound more like the brushes are worn out.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that motor ain't gots no brushes....*



Steve Neul said:


> That's starting to sound more like the brushes are worn out.


 :no:


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