# Lacquer coat turned cloudy



## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

Never used lacquer before so I thought I would give it a try. I included a picture as is worth 1000 words but I was very disappointed to see what looked so nice as it was drying now looks horrible. The research I did indicated this problem is caused by moisture, Yet it was 77° and 19% humidity when I applied the coat so I don’t think that could be it. At this point is my best bet to just use a bunch of mineral spirits and sanding to try to remove it I’m at a loss for how to try to salvage this appreciate any input thank you.


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

I should clarify I used three coats and waited two hours between coats per the instructions. it was around 77-78° and very low humidity the whole time. The first two coats had some fairy small white splotchy streaks, that came right out after being gently wiped with a rag soaked with mineral spirits. It is the third coat that is a complete disaster.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What was your procedure?*

If I were you I would call the manufacturer and explain the exact procedure you used, temp, humidty, time between coats, moisture content of the surface, and see what they recommend.

Secondly, mineral spirits will NOT dissolve lacquer, only an acetone or lacquer thinner will work to strip it off. I wouldn't do anything until the manufacturer gives their opinion. If you can, email them a better photo of the condition than you posted here, straight on, no reflected light or glare.


Your second post explained you used mineral spirits to wipe it down. That may be the issue, I donno, but typically it is not compatible with lacquer solvents since it is an oily petroleum based solvent and may have left a film?


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

oh wow - a blast from my past.
I first discovered Deft back in the late '70s and it was my
"go to" for furniture and plaques. I loved the stuff !!

I don't know what the modern version of its chemical makeup is.
but, I don't think mineral spirits is compatible with lacquer products.
I personally would follow the directions on the can and use whatever
product is suggest for thinning and cleanup.

you are using a Semi-Gloss finish. did you "stir" with a hefty stick
to break the sediment loose from the bottom ? I mean each little speck
must be incorporated in order to get your expected results.
using a paddle mixer in a drill motor would not do the same as a stick. (IMO).

a little more information on how you prepped the product itself would help.
not that it matters, but, did you use a grain filler and sealer before the Deft?

.


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

Well sounds like mineral spirits might be my problem I will get some proper lacquer thinner. Egg on my face but this project has been a worthwhile learning experience so that is good. I just stirred the finish with a stick in the same way you would do a paint can I think I will have to invest in a mixer for my drill while at the hardware store. I did not use any type of sealer just some Minwax oil based stain. I’ve never used a sealer before but then again I’ve never worked red oak before. It’s pretty obvious I’m a novice and i’ve only used pine plywood and occasionally poplar. Is sealer a good idea for oak? Seemed kiln dried if it makes a difference. I will try to strip this all off and start over I think.


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

Also for prep work I sanded in stages 60-120-180-220 grit, then stained and let dry overnight before applying finish, nothing else.


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

John - when I first discovered Deft (actually, my wife bought it for me
at a hardware store - she overheard a customer raving on it).
at that time, I was using mahogany exclusively for 90% of my projects.
Brushing Lacquer is not intended to be thinned - use it right out of the can.
the material that makes any clear product satin, semi-gloss, flat, etc is like
a very finely ground glass or silica material that inhibits the glossy sheen
after it dries. clear gloss does not have any of this material added.
when the "modified" clear sits for awhile, the solid additive settles to the bottom.
a hefty stick with a flat bottom and square edges must be used to break this
sediment loose and get it mixed back into the body of the finish.
this additive is so fine that it can not be seen with the naked eye when it is
in a solution state.
my personal choice is to stay within the name brand of thinners and additives.
so after I became comfortable with Deft Brushing Lacquer, I used Deft 
Sanding Sealer and lacquer thinner exclusively.
yes, there is a learning curve to all new and unfamiliar products.
_reading, understanding and following the instructions on the can will shorten that curve._
check the instructions on the MinWax stain. . . (just to be sure that too is not a problem).

keep us in the loop - you'll get there (sooner or later).

.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jdmm said:


> Well sounds like mineral spirits might be my problem I will get some proper lacquer thinner.


I only had time to skim your first post but if you're planning to wipe the finish with lacquer thinner like you did the mineral spirits - don't! You'll melt your rag right into the previous finish. If you want to wipe it down between coats use Naphtha.

David


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

This is a lot of good info thanks! I will try to salvage this and hopefully have a good update to post.

John


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have sprayed Deft brushing lacquer ......*

This is because good old nitrocellulose spraying lacquer is almost extinct/banned. I had a difficult time find it so I used brushing lacquer. This guy explains how he does it by thinning it, a slightly different mix than I used:






This about lacquer "blushing", the condition you describe above:


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

First off..Did you follow the directions on the can?

Did you thin the lacquer with the proper thinner as indicated on the can? 

Did you apply the finish too thick? This is very important with what your finish is.

Also important, but nothing to do with your finish problem....did you stop at the recommended finish sanding grit or did you go up one?
Listen to the manufacturer, not a forum. 

From the ambient conditions you gave us, humidity was not the problem. 

I have a lot of experience spraying finishing products, mainly lacquer but not the brushing kind. OK, so sprayed lacquer is normally applied in very thin coats of approximately 3-5 mils wet. We know you brushed, so you must be thicker than that. Now here is why this is important..................Envision a glass of water sitting on top of a picture, then place a clear piece of glass over it and look through it. Now place a slightly cloudy piece of glass over it and look through it. then place another slightly cloudy piece of glass over that Each layer of cloudy glass takes something away from the picture as you look through the layers.
So, maybe you applied too thick a layer of semi gloss ( the first piece of cloudy glass). Then you added another layer of semi-gloss and further clouded up your view and then again with a 3rd layer of semi-gloss.

The proper way to finish is to ALWAYS start and build your coats with a clear finish - always. (Unless you are using a sealer or primer as a first coat). Then you final coat can be a semi-gloss or satin or whatever you want. By doing it this way, you are maintaining the clarity of the finish through the coats and only knocking the shine or glare off of the surface. By adding more and more layers of semi-gloss you are in effect changing your finish to a satin finish, and if you do enough coats, you will end up with a dead flat finish, just like adding all the layers of of slightly cloudy glass. 
If you add enough coats of semi-gloss, you will be losing the clarity and subsequently losing the ability to see the wood grain at its best.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

When I first saw your picture I "knew" what the problem was, and while that is still sorta true, the exact cause shifted when I later red about the mineral spirits. It's still related though. The picture is indicative of applying lacquer over stain that hasn't fully dried, but in this case, it is the mineral spirits doing the same thing.


The reason for my posting is to give you a possible option for repairing it without too much difficulty. That's because I have encountered the same thing many times due to wet stains.




Take a rag and fully wet it with lacquer, and then rub the existing finish thoroughly as though you were scrubbing/cleaning a floor or countertop. By that description, I mean "be aggressive". You want to apply enough fresh lacquer, and rub it into the surface to dissolve the previous layer at the same time. As you rub, you should see the blushing become clear. Then, before the lacquer dries, smooth it out as much as you can with the rag. After that, you can either apply another coat-then-sand or sand-then-coat, depending on your preference.

Oh, just to be clear, you do this with lacquer...NOT with lacquer thinner. It won't work the same because the lacquer thinner is only solvent and will dry too fast.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh well, I thought he used the mineral spirits to just clean up AFTER the problem arose. 
I'm confused


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## danrush (Oct 16, 2017)

Mohawk no blush retarder can be handy for these issues. It softens the lacquer to allow moisture to escape thru the finish.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

danrush said:


> Mohawk no blush retarder can be handy for these issues. It softens the lacquer to allow moisture to escape thru the finish.


No. Do not apply retarder to the surface of an applied finish. The ratio of retarder to lacquer would be too high and your finish will never get very hard. Retarder has its purpose, but don't use it as a thinner or cleaner.


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## danrush (Oct 16, 2017)

Rick Christopherson said:


> No. Do not apply retarder to the surface of an applied finish. The ratio of retarder to lacquer would be too high and your finish will never get very hard. Retarder has its purpose, but don't use it as a thinner or cleaner.


I admit I don't know enough about it to disagree, Rick. ( I generally trust the advice you share on various forums.) But, Mohawk markets the no blush in an aerosol specifically for finish repair. Water marks, etc. What am I missing?


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## danrush (Oct 16, 2017)

Sorry for the crummy screen shot. This is the stuff I'm talking about...


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Back when I was doing a lot of refinishing work, there were 2 distinct products for blush. One was a RETARDER and the other was a Blush Eliminator. The RETARDER was a liquid that was mixed in with the lacquer and the lacquer thinner before spraying. This slowed down the 'kick-in' time. It was not a linear across the board slow down. It would extend the 'kick-in' by only a few minutes. It was just long enough to prevent the moisture in the air from humidity being trapped in the finish before it kicked over. This only worked if the humidity was not over 85%, which on normal conditions over 80% was a bit too high. BTW, in Houston area and coastal areas, 85% Humidity is about normal in summer time.

Blush Eliminator was used for spot spraying over an area that had blush. it really had not much use in a new project where everything was sprayed all at once. It was normally used on older pieces that were scratched or spot sprayed and blushed. It was applied by spraying parallel to and slightly above the surface. The idea was that the mist slowly settled down on the surface and more or less, re-melted the surface.

I guess products have changed as manufacturers come and go.


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

I did try to follow the instructions carefully, did not thin because instructions said not to, and stopped sanding at 220 grit as the label indicated. The stain should of been completely dry. I think you all identified 2 critical errors I made.
1 Probably did put all 3 coats on a little thick, call that inexperience.
2 all I had was mineral spirits, so I used that to clean the brush between coats, which probably caused much more problems on coats 2 and 3. Call that ignorance!
Not going to make those mistake again.
I have to reread some suggestions on removing the flawed coats. Was cold and rainy last couple of days, but should be dry and 70+ today so I can work on it. I got a tin of Watco paint and poly remover that is supppsed to work on lacquer, but will maybe try some above methods first.
Also, I like the idea of a spray finish, but really want to learn one method before moving on.

John


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

Rick had an interesting suggestion on trying to rub out flaws with more lacquer, couldn’t hurt as I would have to strip and sand anyways if it didn’t work. And Tony, had no idea semi-gloss was only for a final coat. Maybe I will just get a jar of glossy .
Either way think I am going to take some scrap leftover and prepare/stain the same way and practice application. I once read something like “test your project on scrap or risk scrapping your project.” I follow that advice when setting up cutting tools, wish I did for the finish coat!
John


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

John - I think I saw that somewhere too, way back when.
I have modified it somewhat to suit my version:
“test your products on similar scrap material or run the risk of scrapping your project.”
not ONE of us came into this world knowing all there is to know about everything.
we ALL have paid the price of admission into any hobby or profession that we venture into.
you'll get there - just continue to persevere.

.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

danrush said:


> Sorry for the crummy screen shot. This is the stuff I'm talking about...


 OK, my mistake. I saw the word "Retarder" and assumed it was as Tony B described. Normal lacquer retarder is intended to be mixed with a lacquer to slow down the film time, but if applied direct, it will be too concentrated. 



The product you showed is something different, and specifically intended to be sprayed on the surface.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

Every now and then I'll get a blush from moisture.
I'll put some acetone in the cup gun and lightly spray it over the blushed area. That usually brings the water out. It doesn't work on all blushing problems but it works for most of them for me.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I knew a guy who sprayed straight lacquer on a table top to get the cloudy out. 10 minutes laterr it was a perfectly clear finish. Doesn't work on all finishes...


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## jdmm (Jan 16, 2019)

Quick update thanks to all the advice I was able to salvage this. I wasn’t very careful on the lid and had some lacquer pool up underneath what’s a good way to remove it so make it more even before applying another coat I was thinking sanding with 320 grit, but not sure since it’s a film type finish. as always welcome the thoughts of those who know a whole lot more than me which is most everybody.
John


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

good job, John !! glad you were able to salvage your project.
if you are going to be using lacquer, it is most advisable to
keep a gallon of REAL lacquer thinner on hand.
you will find that it is best for any lacquer related "issues".

.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

I'm so glad this project worked out for you. As soon as I saw "mineral spirits" I knew. I'm certainly not an expert but I will share a couple thoughts/opinions/questions:

Deft brushing lacquer isn't the same as nitrocellulose lacquer we used to spay in our shop is it? Nitro isn't brushable. 

I remember using brushing lac. in shop class back in the 80's. I recall it not being very durable.

95% of our topcoat finishes are now waterborne. When we need to use oil base stain, after we think it's dry about 8 hours, we wipe it down with a cloth dampened with a 50/50 solution of water and denatured alcohal to remove any oily residue. If we're pushing the clock, we'll use shellac between the stain and WB Lac.


Why would a new finisher want to use solvent based finishes such as Deft or Minwax poly with the evolution of water borne products and affordability of pretty decent spray equipment. 

For new and even seasoned finishing folks; I highly recommend a book written by Jeff Jewitt called Complete Guide to Finishing. It may be a little dated at this point and may not included some of the modern products available currently.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

That's a great looking project, well done, great save!


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

How long after staining did you apply the lacquer. Minwax is nothing but sediment suspended in oil. The sediment settles into the pores and the oil flashes off. Sufficient time must be given per the manufacturer for that to occur. Before the topcoat I would suggest wiping it down with a clean rag dampened with a 50:50 combination of DNA/H2O. The sediment the narrator speaks of that changes gloss to semi-gloss or satin, also called flattening agents not only creates the desired finish, it also softens the finish. I would suggest build all your coats in high gloss, final coat in satin or whatever you are looking to achieve. You will have the desired sheen with improved clarity.


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