# Sargent 3416 plane



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I just picked up this Sargent 3416 plane at a local "collector" store. Mix of tools, hardware, and some actual collectables.

Looks to be in decent shape.
Any pointers for what to check, anything unusual about tuning?

Looking to get this in good condition and use not sell. Considering adding a sole of harder wood. This may be maple.

I know these are not particularly valuable, hoping that it can be a decent plane.

Overall view








Front detail showing model 3416.


----------



## gideon (May 26, 2010)

I have a stanley version of this plane. I think the wood is beech. 

If I remember correctly, I think I have a 45.

I fixed mine up and tried it. I didn't really like it. It's pretty light so it took a little more to get it through material - more than the later iron planes. 

Mine is a jointing/larger jack plane, roughly the size of a 6 or 7 stanley. Using the 6 and 7 is a lot easier getting through material.


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Dave, this style of plane is called a Transition Plane for your future research. This particular one is a transition foreplane. The Stanley equivalent would be the #27 transition. (the 45 is a combination plane)

They are a bit hanky to use, the mouths need to be tuned just right to get good shaving but not get clogged. I do like the transition smoothers but the jacks on up are challenging. 

I would suggest you keep the original sole being it's a part of it's history. If the wood screws are lose drill out, glue in dowel and re-drill. If the sole is worn joint it and wipe with several coats of BLO cut with MS then wax... Assuming the mouth will still be tight.

What kind of shape is the iron in?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Thanks for the replies.

I think the plane and blade are in good condition considering the age.

A bit of superficial rust and one decent ding in the blade, but this will come out easily.

This is the back side of the blade and the cap iron. Initial cleanup and rust removal.









This is detail from the top, can just make out the Sargent logo, so the blade appears to be the original.









I bought this with a number of items from this store. Not expecting this to be a find, rather it looked in decent condition and I kind of wanted to give it a good home. :yes:


----------



## gideon (May 26, 2010)

If you find these in nice condition and a price which is acceptable to you then grab them. I have a little display going - a 6, 5, 2 x 4's, some small little bench planes, spoke shaves and the mini planes which I love so much and a few transitionals. But with all of them, they're all ready for use when I need them. Even the transitionals. 

I am going to clean the shelton no 4 we were talking about soon and see what it's like to use. It feels different than the stanley 4's - the handle is further back which changes the balance a bit. I like it tho because the stanleys are so compact that I get little bits of skin scraped off from contact with the other parts.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Well, I sharpened the blade, attempted to flatten the cap iron, sanded the sole flat, and then tried to plane a piece of straight grained doug fir.

Even the lightest pass caused shavings to get under the cap iron and then have to clear.

This is not worth to replace the cap iron and not worth any more time.

So a useful learning. Happy this was inexpensive.

This will be placed aside to gather dust.


----------



## gideon (May 26, 2010)

with mine, i noticed that skipped along the surface as well. mine is pretty dusty.


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Dave, before you throw in the towel there are two things you can try:

First off bend the chip breaker a bit more severely to get tighter pressure at that point of contact.

The other thing is to put a light under bevel on it so that you have a sharp point of contact to the iron. That's a problem not specific to transition planes, it can just as easily happen with any plane having a chip breaker.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

firemedic said:


> Dave, before you throw in the towel there are two things you can try:
> 
> First off bend the chick breaker a bit more severely to get tighter pressure at that point of contact.
> 
> The other thing is to put a light under bevel on it so that you have a sharp point of contact to the iron. That's a problem not specific to transition planes, it can just as easily happen with any plane having a chip breaker.


Thanks, I will see if I can bend it.

I have a cap iron from a Record #5, which is thicker, but I was not able to use since the hole for the adjustment lever is in the wrong place. What a shock, there are no standards. 

I may also need to get a 1/4in x 20 tpi die. I am not able to get the lever cap as tight as I want. The thread for the screw needs to be cleared and as Murphy would have it, this is one tap I do not have in my set.


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I compared the stock cap iron to the Record, and I could easily see that the Record had a more acute curve and especially the angle it makes with the blade.

I attempted to curve the stock cap iron, but this is not easy with my only vise. I may have made a small difference.

I sanded the edge flat.

I was not able to find a 1/4in x 24 die to clear the threads for the screw (I had this wrong before as 1/4 x 20). Not worth buying a die for this one step, so instead I added a washer, so I was able to get more pressure on the cap iron/blade assembly with the lever.

This time I was able to plane the straight grained piece of fir.

So finally I got some shaving. This time the shaving did not get under the cap iron, but as you mentioned earlier, this is not a good design to clear the shaving.

I found I had to clear the mouth after each pass or I would get too much skipping.

So the plane is now technically in working shape. 

I think the plane is best used for display. 

If I had to use this to get real work done, I think I would quickly become frustrated. :thumbdown:

Thanks for the replies and tips. Overall, I feel this was still a useful learning - for the low price of the plane.


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Good deal, a lil tuning can go a long way. Are you ready to tune up the throat now? :smile:

Make light paring cuts opening the throat BUT NOT THE MOUTH. In other words increase the angle of the throat without widening the mouth. 

That will allow the chips to clear. 

The other thing that improves this is technique. A faster moving plane tends to clog less. Quick short strokes are less likely to clog.

Fun stuff, huh!?


----------



## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

So what ever happened to this one?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

firemedic said:


> So what ever happened to this one?


I sent this onto Chris Curl I think back in January.

It was used initially. Not sure if he is still using it.


----------

