# Extra Thick Stain on Walnut



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I am refinishing a dining room table top that is not an antique but is high quality based on its look and where it was bought. When I started to strip it I found that the stain was unusually "thick". So I am wondering if I will run into any issues when I re-stain this table top.

I would appreciate feedback confirming that this wood is walnut. It looks like walnut to me but does not seem dark enough.

Also any guidance would be helpful on how to approach the staining to achieve the desired color.

The top is being refinished to eliminate numerous small scratches. So far the good news is that it looks like the scratches are superficial in the stain and top coat but not in the wood.

Thanks.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

As best as I can tell from the picture it appears someone put a lot of toner between the layers of finish. Once stripped it won't affect your new finish.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> As best as I can tell from the picture it appears someone put a lot of toner between the layers of finish. Once stripped it won't affect your new finish.


 
Steve thanks much for the quick feedback. The stain and top coats sure seemed thicker that what I have normally experienced. That settles me down quite a bit.

I am going to do some stain testing with MinWax Dark Walnut and Jacobean. If I get the right color match I'll just finish the stripping and make this a smooth project so the customer can have her table back quickly.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Probably what happened is the table was finished with a clear finish and someone else wanted it darker so it had toner added to it and another finish over the top of that. That probably accounts for the thicker finish. Who knows what folks to to furniture. 

With that wood I would use a grain filler prior to finishing.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Probably what happened is the table was finished with a clear finish and someone else wanted it darker so it had toner added to it and another finish over the top of that. That probably accounts for the thicker finish. Who knows what folks to to furniture.
> 
> With that wood I would use a grain filler prior to finishing.


 Steve I have never used a grain filler although I have some and have wanted to learn to use it.

Do you think this I walnut?

If I were able to use a grain filler and end up getting a glass smooth finish the customer would be delighted. So I see some new experiences coming my way.

Thanks for encouraging me.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It looks like walnut to me. 

The grain filler you have if it is a natural color I would recommend tinting it to the color of walnut wood putty. A natural wood grain filler looks pretty bad on walnut. 

When you try it don't do a too big area at a time. A lot of them don't give you a long working time and can harden before you get the excess off. Then you end up having to wash it off with a solvent and start over. It mixes up about twice as thick as an oil based enamel and you brush it on like paint. Then let it sit and thicken to a paste and squeege the excess off. I use a rubber squeege like you clean the windshield of a car off. Then if there is any thick spots of filler left on the surface get those with a rag. After you are done allow the stuff to dry overnight and lightly sand the haze off the surface with a sanding block with 220 grit paper. From that point stain and finish the table as you would otherwise except allow more drying time before between the coats sanding. The stain and finish can make the grain filler swell up out of the grain and if you don't allow it to dry and shrink back down before you sand it, it will shrink after you are done and make the wood grainy like you never used grain filler.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It looks like walnut to me.
> 
> The grain filler you have if it is a natural color I would recommend tinting it to the color of walnut wood putty. A natural wood grain filler looks pretty bad on walnut.
> 
> When you try it don't do a too big area at a time. A lot of them don't give you a long working time and can harden before you get the excess off. Then you end up having to wash it off with a solvent and start over. It mixes up about twice as thick as an oil based enamel and you brush it on like paint. Then let it sit and thicken to a paste and squeege the excess off. I use a rubber squeege like you clean the windshield of a car off. Then if there is any thick spots of filler left on the surface get those with a rag. After you are done allow the stuff to dry overnight and lightly sand the haze off the surface with a sanding block with 220 grit paper. From that point stain and finish the table as you would otherwise except allow more drying time before between the coats sanding. The stain and finish can make the grain filler swell up out of the grain and if you don't allow it to dry and shrink back down before you sand it, it will shrink after you are done and make the wood grainy like you never used grain filler.


 Steve that's some pretty detailed and helpful guidance. Many thanks. A new learning experience is in the cards for me next week.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve that's some pretty detailed and helpful guidance. Many thanks. A new learning experience is in the cards for me next week.
> 
> Gary


Without anyone to train me it took a long time before I figured out what was going wrong when I filled the grain on walnut and mahogany. I filled the grain and allowed it to dry for several hours and then started putting a finish on it. I was using lacquer and it dried quick so I could put several coats on in one day sanding between coats and at the end of the day the table would look great. Then the next morning I would come in and the table would look like I never put grain filler on it. One day I got frustrated enough to look at the table top with a magnifying glass while the finish was still wet and noticed the grain filler was swelling out of the grain. I knew then what was going on and started allowing ample time between coats before sanding and didn't have any more problems.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve, you have now outdone yourself with the hand drawn schematic of what was happening. Can animation and video be in the future? Great explanation. Thank you.

I have done some stain testing. The colors are dark enough when wet (first picture) but get too light when wiped back (second picture).

I am assuming that I can solve this with dye instead of stain. Do you agree?

The MinWax Jacobean stain looks like the best match to me. Searching that I have done does not come up with Jacobean wood dye except in England. Do you think I could custom mix by trial & error some dark walnut dye and black dye? Or add red dye?

I would like to avoid dye color trial & error but I don't know how to make the MinWax Jacobean stain stay dark.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sorry, I don't do video. 

If you try to stain the wood filler after it is already in the wood, the wood will stain too and the filler will still be too light. The filler needs to be mixed darker than the stain you are going to use for good results. Otherwise you will end up with little white or light streaks in the wood where the grain is as though there was paint imbedded in the wood. It's not difficult to alter the color of grain filler. For use with walnut add some black and red oxide tinting color to it and stir it just like you would paint. 

As far as dyes, I think you would be able to have dye powders shipped to you from Mohawk Finishing Products. The premixed stuff there might be issues with shipping it across the border but the powders are near harmless. I assume you can get denatured alcohol. All you would have to do is mix the powders with alcohol.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

The finish shown on the middle picture looks very much like one where the color was mixed into the lacquer and sprayed on. In other words it was not applied as a standalone layer of finish. This is the way most factory furniture is finished. 

Where you are now you should use a chemical paint stripper containing methylene chloride and fully remove the finish. Then apply a new stain coat and then a protective clear coat.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

You can also use a clear wood filler as well. 

I would also use a dye stain and spray apply. You will have alot more clarity. After the dye stain, apply a washcoat, (which is a thinned sealer) and then scuff sand with 320 grit. Then, apply a wipe stain which will bring out the grain. Wipe circular, then wipe clean. Apply 2 coats of a sealer, sanding with 240 grit on a block in between the sealer coats, then apply a lacquer with your customers sheen choice.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sorry, I don't do video.
> 
> If you try to stain the wood filler after it is already in the wood, the wood will stain too and the filler will still be too light. The filler needs to be mixed darker than the stain you are going to use for good results. Otherwise you will end up with little white or light streaks in the wood where the grain is as though there was paint imbedded in the wood. It's not difficult to alter the color of grain filler. For use with walnut add some black and red oxide tinting color to it and stir it just like you would paint.
> 
> As far as dyes, I think you would be able to have dye powders shipped to you from Mohawk Finishing Products. The premixed stuff there might be issues with shipping it across the border but the powders are near harmless. I assume you can get denatured alcohol. All you would have to do is mix the powders with alcohol.


 Steve, to be sure I was kidding.

I am away in Michigan this weekend (I live in a Canadian border city). I will look for some tinting colors when I am there. Perhaps I could even buy some locally from paint stores.

I have access to dyes easily by getting them shipped to the Michigan border city and then dropping over to pick them up along with some beer of course. I can get DNA across the border readily.

I have used dyes although not often. Generally I dilute them with water because I find the DNA flashes so quickly that I can't spread the dye properly.

Thanks. 

Gary

P.S. I will send another update shortly with new pictures of new issues on this project ... what else is new?


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> You can also use a clear wood filler as well.
> 
> I would also use a dye stain and spray apply. You will have alot more clarity. After the dye stain, apply a washcoat, (which is a thinned sealer) and then scuff sand with 320 grit. Then, apply a wipe stain which will bring out the grain. Wipe circular, then wipe clean. Apply 2 coats of a sealer, sanding with 240 grit on a block in between the sealer coats, then apply a lacquer with your customers sheen choice.


 
Randy I like your suggestions but I have no spray capability and zero experience with lacquer (all my top coats are wipe on poly). So I need more skills over time.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

HowardAcheson said:


> The finish shown on the middle picture looks very much like one where the color was mixed into the lacquer and sprayed on. In other words it was not applied as a standalone layer of finish. This is the way most factory furniture is finished.
> 
> Where you are now you should use a chemical paint stripper containing methylene chloride and fully remove the finish. Then apply a new stain coat and then a protective clear coat.


Howie I completed the stripping this morning and ran into serious issues (to me anyway).

The veneer appears to be unbelievable thin and I created some scratches of my own. The resulting stripped top look very ugly at best. I've seen this kind of stripping result before and simple random orbit sanding makes it look okay. With the thinness of the veneer I am leery of any sanding. I will do some minor hand sanding to try to even this out.

But the show stopper issue for me is what happened when I tried to strip the edges (see the second picture). I stripped this edge ... no sanding was done. It can't be veneer that is on there because it seems to have "melted" away from the stripper. I do not know what I am dealing with here nor do I know how to fix this.

What started off as a simple project all of a sudden has me stumped. Without spray capability I may end up being forced to take this to the pros in town who will charge me $300 or $400 to solve this.

Gary


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Maybe it's somewhere in the text, but I can't see where the name and type of stripper is indicated. From the pictures, I think that there is still a lot of finish on surface. If so, no additional stain will give to an even colored surface.

Personally, I don't think you are dealing with walnut. It looks like it might be an inexpensive hard wood that has been sprayed with a colored lacquer. The grain does not look like walnut.This is a very standard procedure when attempting to mimic an expensive wood.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> The veneer appears to be unbelievable thin

From what I can see, there is no veneer on your item. It's a sprayed on tinted lacquer. The only way to deal with it is to completely and thoroughly remove all the existing finish.

Again, what is the stripper you are using? Does it contain methylene chloride?


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

HowardAcheson said:


> Maybe it's somewhere in the text, but I can't see where the name and type of stripper is indicated. From the pictures, I think that there is still a lot of finish on surface. If so, no additional stain will give to an even colored surface.
> 
> Personally, I don't think you are dealing with walnut. It looks like it might be an inexpensive hard wood that has been sprayed with a colored lacquer. The grain does not look like walnut.This is a very standard procedure when attempting to mimic an expensive wood.


 Howie the stripper that I use is a Canadian brand called Circa 1850. Its main ingredient is dichloromethane. You are right it does look like I need to do a better job stripping.

Not sure what else to do at this point.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

From what I read about it the Circa 1850 remover looks too mild for my taste. 

Tinting color should be very easy to get. It's the colorant a paint store has in their machines to make paint. If you take an empty container in the store a lot of paint stores will sell you small amounts. You don't need very much, the colorant goes a long way. I keep different colors in Harbor Freight squeeze bottles for easy dispensing.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

gaf I am in Canada to Ottawa area, I use dyes from general sold at lee valley tools. I also use general stains all water base,I put 10 % extender in dyes and stains if its a big area and need time to lay stain or dye down,


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ricko said:


> gaf I am in Canada to Ottawa area, I use dyes from general sold at lee valley tools. I also use general stains all water base,I put 10 % extender in dyes and stains if its a big area and need time to lay stain or dye down,


 Thanks Rick. I lived n Ottawa for 5 years. Great city. Miss it.

Lee Valley is a place I order from frequently.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> From what I read about it the Circa 1850 remover looks too mild for my taste.
> 
> Tinting color should be very easy to get. It's the colorant a paint store has in their machines to make paint. If you take an empty container in the store a lot of paint stores will sell you small amounts. You don't need very much, the colorant goes a long way. I keep different colors in Harbor Freight squeeze bottles for easy dispensing.


Steve on my weekend trip I bought some Zinsser stripper to try to see if it works better than what I have been using.

Can you give me any advice on what to do with the edges of this table? I do not know whether or not to continue stripping and then hope that stain or dye will cover up whatever is happening. Thanks.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm sorry Gary but the picture isn't clear enough to tell about the edge of the table. It almost looks like the veneer tape on the edge there is gone. Perhaps you can see it better there. If the veneer tape is gone the only real fix would be to re-veneer it. That sounds like a bad job but there is veneer tape available that has hot melt glue already on the tape and you just heat it on with a hot iron. It's difficult to determine the length of the tape so don't. Just start with a clean square edge on the tape and go around the table applying it until you get within about 3" of the other end and then cut the tape to length.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If your uncomfortable with applying veneer to the edge, another option would be to burnish the edges with a darker stain to hide it. As long as it smooth it will be ok.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm sorry Gary but the picture isn't clear enough to tell about the edge of the table. It almost looks like the veneer tape on the edge there is gone. Perhaps you can see it better there. If the veneer tape is gone the only real fix would be to re-veneer it. That sounds like a bad job but there is veneer tape available that has hot melt glue already on the tape and you just heat it on with a hot iron. It's difficult to determine the length of the tape so don't. Just start with a clean square edge on the tape and go around the table applying it until you get within about 3" of the other end and then cut the tape to length.


Steve I've had some experience with glue on veneers although not edge banding. I think this would work but I want to try out Randy's suggestion because it is less work. Hope you are okay with that.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> If your uncomfortable with applying veneer to the edge, another option would be to burnish the edges with a darker stain to hide it. As long as it smooth it will be ok.


 Randy, thanks ... less work and I am going to give it a shot.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I've had some experience with glue on veneers although not edge banding. I think this would work but I want to try out Randy's suggestion because it is less work. Hope you are okay with that.
> 
> Gary


That's fine. I'm just trying to give you options. You might try to color in that spot before you finish the top in case you are not satisfied with it. If you did replace the veneer edging it would involve sanding the top again a little.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> That's fine. I'm just trying to give you options. You might try to color in that spot before you finish the top in case you are not satisfied with it. If you did replace the veneer edging it would involve sanding the top again a little.


Steve I will try refinishing the edge today after stripping it better. I meant to attach the photo below in my last update but missed it. It shows a very strange edge to me. Does not look like anything I have seen before. It almost looks like a paper edge???

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Some veneers have a paper backing so you might very well be seeing paper where the veneer used to be. It really looks like that is what has happened is someone has pushed the table against the wall or something enough to rub the veneer off of it. You might try to do a faux finish on that spot. If you look at the edge of the table where the veneer is still there you will see two colors, one is the background and then the darker of the grain. You might sand that damaged spot smooth and paint it the lighter color of the background color and let it dry. Then take a gel stain the color of the dark part of the grain and apply it with a graining tool or a artist fan brush. What you end up with is the tool or stiff brush drags the dark gel stain off exposing the background color simulating the grain. http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-paint-a-faux-wood-grain/index.html


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Some veneers have a paper backing so you might very well be seeing paper where the veneer used to be. It really looks like that is what has happened is someone has pushed the table against the wall or something enough to rub the veneer off of it. You might try to do a faux finish on that spot. If you look at the edge of the table where the veneer is still there you will see two colors, one is the background and then the darker of the grain. You might sand that damaged spot smooth and paint it the lighter color of the background color and let it dry. Then take a gel stain the color of the dark part of the grain and apply it with a graining tool or a artist fan brush. What you end up with is the tool or stiff brush drags the dark gel stain off exposing the background color simulating the grain. http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-paint-a-faux-wood-grain/index.html


More new things to learn ... this keeps going and going. Thanks Steve.

I finished stripping the edge of this table this morning and whatever is happening is consistent all the way around. It does not look like veneer. If anything it was paper with a wood grain look. I hope the edge will take a very dark stain since it was very dark to begin with as you can see from the second picture.

The top needs to be stripped one last time with the Zinsser stripper that I just bought. Then I will try to stain this table. If I cannot succeed I will have to take it to the local pros.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's sounding like the edge was done with a faux finish and what you are perceiving as paper is the base color paint for the faux finish. To me it would be easier to stick some walnut veneer tape around the edge than going down the faux road. I thought you were just going to touch up the spot.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Are you spraying???

You can always use an oil stain and reduce it with 1 part stain and 2 parts naptha, reduce the fluid screw slightly on the gun, and blow the color on. This is called a no wipe and will dry pretty fast. You can use this method to sneak up on the color. Since its a dark stain and burnishing the end is an option, that might be the way to go.

That edge looks like plastic. I have seen them in a few factories years ago and we used to blow on color using either an acetone based stain or use a tinted lacquer.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

He doesn't spray.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It's sounding like the edge was done with a faux finish and what you are perceiving as paper is the base color paint for the faux finish. To me it would be easier to stick some walnut veneer tape around the edge than going down the faux road. I thought you were just going to touch up the spot.


 Steve I will try a small section to see what really dark stain or dye looks like (the edge does feel good and smooth). If that's a no go I'll go the edge veneer solution. 

Thanks.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Are you spraying???
> 
> You can always use an oil stain and reduce it with 1 part stain and 2 parts naptha, reduce the fluid screw slightly on the gun, and blow the color on. This is called a no wipe and will dry pretty fast. You can use this method to sneak up on the color. Since its a dark stain and burnishing the end is an option, that might be the way to go.
> 
> That edge looks like plastic. I have seen them in a few factories years ago and we used to blow on color using either an acetone based stain or use a tinted lacquer.


 Thanks Randy but Steve knows me too well because I don't have spray capability.

Gary 

Steve ... thanks.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I will try a small section to see what really dark stain or dye looks like (the edge does feel good and smooth). If that's a no go I'll go the edge veneer solution.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Gary


You might try just sanding the edge down to bare wood and see what happens. A lot of those tables were made with lumber core plywood. If that is the case the edge would just stain nicely. The edge will need to be smooth what ever solution you come up with.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You might try just sanding the edge down to bare wood and see what happens. A lot of those tables were made with lumber core plywood. If that is the case the edge would just stain nicely. The edge will need to be smooth what ever solution you come up with.


Steve I did sand the edge down as you suggested. I honestly cannot tell if it was down to bare wood or whatever is under there. The first attempt was not good enough and the wood dye was a bust (first picture). So I sanded it again and now the edge looks pretty good. It is better in person than in the picture (second picture) and should look nice and dark after top coating.

Of course now I have a challenge with the top. I applied water (can't work fast enough with DNA) diluted TransTint Dark Walnut. I have 2 issues.

Firstly my dye application is pretty blotchy (I did not condition the wood). So I need some advice on how to even out the colour. Do I need to strip it again and start over?

Secondly I need to try to match the colour of the leg sitting on top of the table. There is a reddish hew to the final colour. (The mark on the right showing in the photo is a real mark and I will fix it ... the mark showing on the left is from the camera lens). Counsel on how to sneak up on the colour would also be appreciated.

Gary

P.S. Such a seemingly simply project has been no end of challenges for me.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The edge of the table you might as well assume it was painted. That is fairly common and there isn't anything wrong with staining the wood underneath. 

I can't tell if it is the way you sanded the top or applied the dye but I'm seeing lines running across the grain. If it is the dye you needed to apply it and work it rubbing it with the grain. The dye you have isn't near the right color. You need more black and red oxide. You might try mixing the transtint more concentrated and add some mahogany dye to it if they have a mahogany. As far as sneaking up on the color, that isn't an option for you. You are going to have to mix the right color and just do one staining. If the table has walnut veneer on the bottom side you might use that for testing.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Be careful as too much red and black will kill the yellow and you will end up on the Merlot side.....

If your using transtint, I have a medium dark walnut formula that will get you close to that color, even if you have to spray it twice. 

1 1/2 parts dark brown
1 part reddish brown
10 parts water

You can also play around with going 5 parts water to make it darker.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The edge of the table you might as well assume it was painted. That is fairly common and there isn't anything wrong with staining the wood underneath.
> 
> I can't tell if it is the way you sanded the top or applied the dye but I'm seeing lines running across the grain. If it is the dye you needed to apply it and work it rubbing it with the grain. The dye you have isn't near the right color. You need more black and red oxide. You might try mixing the transtint more concentrated and add some mahogany dye to it if they have a mahogany. As far as sneaking up on the color, that isn't an option for you. You are going to have to mix the right color and just do one staining. If the table has walnut veneer on the bottom side you might use that for testing.


 Steve lines across the grain are bad sanding on my part. I was very timid about sanding because the veneer looked paper thin and so I did it by hand.

Do I have to strip and start over? Sounds like I do.

Ugh.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Steve lines across the grain are bad sanding on my part. I was very timid about sanding because the veneer looked paper thin and so I did it by hand.
> 
> Do I have to strip and start over? Sounds like I do.
> 
> ...


I would say yes, strip it because those sanding marks are gonna show. Scuff sand again with 240 grit with the grain before applying another stain.

I think that edge banding is plastic, Ive seen that before!


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Be careful as too much red and black will kill the yellow and you will end up on the Merlot side.....
> 
> If your using transtint, I have a medium dark walnut formula that will get you close to that color, even if you have to spray it twice.
> 
> ...


Randy I have the following TransTint dyes:

Dark Walnut
Red Mahogany
Brown Mahogany
Dark Mission Brown
Dark Vintage Maple
Black

Can you make a mixture recommendation based on what I have? I cannot spray - only wipe on which is why this is so difficult to me.

I have lots of MinWax stains which I find easier to work with. But the depth of color of this table top pushed me in the wood dye direction.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy I have the following TransTint dyes:
> 
> Dark Walnut
> Red Mahogany
> ...


I only have like 10 different recipes that I have for transtint. I use Sherwin Williams Concentrates. 

What I would do is start with:
2 parts Dark Mission Brown
1 part Dark Mahogany
1/2 part Black
5 parts water

Try this on a small inconspicuous area, maybe on the bottom of the top, apply a clear coat and view the color against the leg your trying to match. Adjust water and colors accordingly. 

Is that dark vintage maple a yellow color??? May can replace the dark mission brown with that color and start with 3 parts. Again, all this is just a guess/starting point.

I mainly use black, red, and yellow to match my colors.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> I only have like 10 different recipes that I have for transtint. I use Sherwin Williams Concentrates.
> 
> What I would do is start with:
> 2 parts Dark Mission Brown
> ...


Randy I have capitulated on using wood dye and trying to apply it by hand wiping. I tried that on a different project today with horrible results. I reviewed all 10 projects where I have used dye and in all of the projects the dye was used on small areas with no blotching issues. I cannot get a consistent quality result on a large area by hand wiping.

Somehow I have to try to duplicate the required color with MinWax stain and by blending more than one. There is nowhere on the piece to do a test.

What an incredibly frustrating day on a hobby that I love so much.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve lines across the grain are bad sanding on my part. I was very timid about sanding because the veneer looked paper thin and so I did it by hand.
> 
> Do I have to strip and start over? Sounds like I do.
> 
> ...


If all you have on it is a little transtint you don't have to actually strip it. It might gum up less on the paper if you would wipe it down with lacquer thinner before sanding. 

As far as sanding I would use an orbital sander with 180 grit paper and sand the top. If you are paying attention to what you are doing you can see the veneer starting to get thin long before you sand through it. Where you get in trouble is keeping the sander in one spot too long.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm sorry. I keep forgetting your not spraying. 

If I was you I would strip it, scuff sand, and start over. Look through the min wax line of colors and pick a color that will be similar to what you need. Your not going to be able to wipe dye stains consistently.

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains-color-guide/


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If all you have on it is a little transtint you don't have to actually strip it. It might gum up less on the paper if you would wipe it down with lacquer thinner before sanding.
> 
> As far as sanding I would use an orbital sander with 180 grit paper and sand the top. If you are paying attention to what you are doing you can see the veneer starting to get thin long before you sand through it. Where you get in trouble is keeping the sander in one spot too long.


Steve I did in fact already re-strip it and that went quickly.

I normally random orbit sand down to 220. Perhaps you are suggesting 180 because that will allow more stain or dye to be accepted for me to get the dark colour that I need.

It will be a nerve wracking experience when I do this sanding today.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> I'm sorry. I keep forgetting your not spraying.
> 
> If I was you I would strip it, scuff sand, and start over. Look through the min wax line of colors and pick a color that will be similar to what you need. Your not going to be able to wipe dye stains consistently.
> 
> http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains-color-guide/


Randy I am very familiar with the MinWax color guide and have many of their colors. I will give this a shot today and hope for the best. My biggest worry is depth of color which is hard to achieve with stain (versus dyes) in my experience.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If all you have on it is a little transtint you don't have to actually strip it. It might gum up less on the paper if you would wipe it down with lacquer thinner before sanding.
> 
> As far as sanding I would use an orbital sander with 180 grit paper and sand the top. If you are paying attention to what you are doing you can see the veneer starting to get thin long before you sand through it. Where you get in trouble is keeping the sander in one spot too long.


 Steve if I want to condition this table before staining top to minimize any splotching issues I would appreciate some feedback on whether to use MinWax Wood Conditioner or diluted Zinsser Sealcoat.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The blotching isn't due to using or not using a conditioner. A conditioner isn't needed or desired for walnut either. It's just very difficult to apply a dye by hand. What is happening is every time you stop or slow down with the rag wiping it, the concentration of dye gets thicker. You would have to make long strokes with the dye with the grain and not stopping until the rag leaves the table. Without the means of spraying I would mix an oil stain and stain it with that. Then you could wipe it any way you want.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy I am very familiar with the MinWax color guide and have many of their colors. I will give this a shot today and hope for the best. My biggest worry is depth of color which is hard to achieve with stain (versus dyes) in my experience.
> 
> Gary


I would take the leg you want to match with you and ask them to give you some direction on matching the color. They will also ask what wood type it is. 

If its not dark enough, you can apply another coat of the minwax, but you have to wait 4-6 hours....I would wait until the next day. 

You can also get a little depth by "high lighting" certain areas with 0000 steel wool following the grain. this will lighten certain areas and look like there were 2 different materials being used. When done, use a clean soft bristle brush and brush over the piece several times to remove any steel wool that might be left in the finish. Try that technique on a piece if scrap wood first to see how you like it.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The blotching isn't due to using or not using a conditioner. A conditioner isn't needed or desired for walnut either. It's just very difficult to apply a dye by hand. What is happening is every time you stop or slow down with the rag wiping it, the concentration of dye gets thicker. You would have to make long strokes with the dye with the grain and not stopping until the rag leaves the table. Without the means of spraying I would mix an oil stain and stain it with that. Then you could wipe it any way you want.


 Thanks Steve. Tough issue to solve. I will switch to oil based stain.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> I would take the leg you want to match with you and ask them to give you some direction on matching the color. They will also ask what wood type it is.
> 
> If its not dark enough, you can apply another coat of the minwax, but you have to wait 4-6 hours....I would wait until the next day.
> 
> You can also get a little depth by "high lighting" certain areas with 0000 steel wool following the grain. this will lighten certain areas and look like there were 2 different materials being used. When done, use a clean soft bristle brush and brush over the piece several times to remove any steel wool that might be left in the finish. Try that technique on a piece if scrap wood first to see how you like it.


 Randy thank you. I have done some oil based stain testing and it will take 2 coats (one day apart for safety). I will wait to see the 2 coat results before attempting your high lighting suggestion.

I may also add darkening powder to the top coats to go darker if needed.

Simple question - after the second coat of stain while it is still wet, does that look like what the finished product will be with 6 wiped on top coats?

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Thanks Steve. Tough issue to solve. I will switch to oil based stain.
> 
> Gary


It really boils down to you are finishing in a 19th century method and a lot of the supplies and techniques discussed here pretty much require being sprayed. Dyes and toners are one thing that really need to be sprayed. This is what I meant when I said you couldn't sneak up on the color. With a dye if you are close to the finish color you can spray coat after coat until you achieve the color you need. Wiping is difficult but if you manage to get a uniform color, that's it. You can't go back and add more color because you would be wiping about as much off as you are putting on. Brushing the finish you are pretty much stuck with oil stains. You can mix a dye with what ever finish you are using and apply one coat to make a minor adjustment to the color. More than one coat and it will get uneven.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy thank you. I have done some oil based stain testing and it will take 2 coats (one day apart for safety). I will wait to see the 2 coat results before attempting your high lighting suggestion.
> 
> I may also add darkening powder to the top coats to go darker if needed.
> 
> ...


Be careful when adding a "darkening powder"......too much will wash the color out making it a cooler color. I think you was needing to keep it on the red side.

The stain being wet will give you an idea, but not a final result of the color. The higher the gloss your using, the darker the color will appear. Thats why you should try an area under the top or whatever, apply a coat or 2 of the finish, then view the color to the leg your matching. Then make adjustments.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It really boils down to you are finishing in a 19th century method and a lot of the supplies and techniques discussed here pretty much require being sprayed. Dyes and toners are one thing that really need to be sprayed. This is what I meant when I said you couldn't sneak up on the color. With a dye if you are close to the finish color you can spray coat after coat until you achieve the color you need. Wiping is difficult but if you manage to get a uniform color, that's it. You can't go back and add more color because you would be wiping about as much off as you are putting on. Brushing the finish you are pretty much stuck with oil stains. You can mix a dye with what ever finish you are using and apply one coat to make a minor adjustment to the color. More than one coat and it will get uneven.


Steve this was a rude awakening for me. All my small experiences working with dye led me to believe I could do something like this. No way. And I have another project in the same boat but at least now I know what I am dealing with.

Final stained table picture to be issued shortly. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

Gary

P.S. We have 3 feet of snow on the ground but I'll bet Texas does not.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Be careful when adding a "darkening powder"......too much will wash the color out making it a cooler color. I think you was needing to keep it on the red side.
> 
> The stain being wet will give you an idea, but not a final result of the color. The higher the gloss your using, the darker the color will appear. Thats why you should try an area under the top or whatever, apply a coat or 2 of the finish, then view the color to the leg your matching. Then make adjustments.


Randy thanks for the heads up. I had only used the "darkening powder / dye" once before but it did not help. I'll be very careful if and when I use it again. Don't think I need too here as you'll see in a picture to be submitted shortly.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve & Randy, the long and arduous coloring journey is now over. Just finished appling a custom mixed oil based stain and it looks good to me compared to the table leg which was not touched. Picture on the left is before, picture on the right with the leg showing is after.

You both saved me many times on this one. I would have given up without your persistent advice.

THANK YOU.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

There you go! Glad it worked out to your liking.

Sorry for the mix up earlier in the thread. For some reason I kept thinking you were spraying. Lol


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve this was a rude awakening for me. All my small experiences working with dye led me to believe I could do something like this. No way. And I have another project in the same boat but at least now I know what I am dealing with.
> 
> Final stained table picture to be issued shortly. Thanks for hanging in there with me.
> 
> ...


On small projects you can often get away with working dyes by hand. On something as big as a table top it's just too easy to get the dye uneven. 

We haven't had anything close to snow in Texas this season yet but I've had to contend with a blizzard of mosquitoes this week. I think it got up to 70 degrees today.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> There you go! Glad it worked out to your liking.
> 
> Sorry for the mix up earlier in the thread. For some reason I kept thinking you were spraying. Lol


 
Randy you sure don't owe me an apology for anything. Spraying sure would solve many issues for me. Sometimes I feel like a one armed paper hanger trying to do everything manually.

Thank you again.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> On small projects you can often get away with working dyes by hand. On something as big as a table top it's just too easy to get the dye uneven.
> 
> We haven't had anything close to snow in Texas this season yet but I've had to contend with a blizzard of mosquitoes this week. I think it got up to 70 degrees today.


 Steve I would accept some mosquitoes for a 70 degree day.

Many thanks once more.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy you sure don't owe me an apology for anything. Spraying sure would solve many issues for me. Sometimes I feel like a one armed paper hanger trying to do everything manually.
> 
> Thank you again.
> 
> Gary


Your very welcome. :thumbsup:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

This table has come back to haunt me. When I removed the green masking tape that I used to protect the table skirt there was some damage. Perhaps it is simply residual glue from the tape. I tried DNA, mineral spirits, Goo Gone and nothing removed the residue.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Hopefully I do not have to completely refinish the table skirt.

Thank you.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

To me the picture looks like it lifted the finish. It looks like a spot that would take amber shellac to touch up.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> To me the picture looks like it lifted the finish. It looks like a spot that would take amber shellac to touch up.


 Steve, would a touch up with Zinsser SealCoat work? Straight or diluted?

Thanks.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sealcoat is clear. You could use it but if the picture is accurate for color I don't think it would give you the yellow color you need. Sealcoat would be about the color of the blonde shellac.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> This table has come back to haunt me. When I removed the green masking tape that I used to protect the table skirt there was some damage. Perhaps it is simply residual glue from the tape. I tried DNA, mineral spirits, Goo Gone and nothing removed the residue.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Hopefully I do not have to completely refinish the table skirt.
> 
> ...



Crap! What kind of tape did you use? Goo Gone should have removed it if it was residue from the tape. A little tip.....I use blue tape and before I tape anything, I take the tape and pat it against my clothing, then apply it to my piece. Doing this takes some of the tackiness from the tape by grabbing the lint from your clothes and lessens the aggressiveness of the tape, so when you pull it off, it doesnt take the finish with it. This will work with any kind of masking tape.

Like Steve said, the tape might have lifted the finish. Depending on how old the finish is, it might be hard to match up. Your not going to like what I have to say next, but you may have to remove the finish, stain, and re apply the finish. But I would try what Steve said first before removing the finish.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sealcoat is clear. You could use it but if the picture is accurate for color I don't think it would give you the yellow color you need. Sealcoat would be about the color of the blonde shellac.


 Steve, I have some Lockwood's dark brown walnut oil stain powder. I am wondering if I can use a small amount of this to tint some Zinsser SealCoat. The instructions end with the comment "always use shellac for first coater".

Thanks.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Crap! What kind of tape did you use? Goo Gone should have removed it if it was residue from the tape. A little tip.....I use blue tape and before I tape anything, I take the tape and pat it against my clothing, then apply it to my piece. Doing this takes some of the tackiness from the tape by grabbing the lint from your clothes and lessens the aggressiveness of the tape, so when you pull it off, it doesnt take the finish with it. This will work with any kind of masking tape.
> 
> Like Steve said, the tape might have lifted the finish. Depending on how old the finish is, it might be hard to match up. Your not going to like what I have to say next, but you may have to remove the finish, stain, and re apply the finish. But I would try what Steve said first before removing the finish.


 Randy, thanks for the advice. I am very careful using tape (blue is best) when painting. Obviously I was not so careful with furniture and now I am paying the price. Your suggestion to pat the tape against clothing makes sense.

I hope I don't have to start from scratch on this. A problem child table all the way.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy, thanks for the advice. I am very careful using tape (blue is best) when painting. Obviously I was not so careful with furniture and now I am paying the price. Your suggestion to pat the tape against clothing makes sense.
> 
> I hope I don't have to start from scratch on this. A problem child table all the way.
> 
> Gary


I will keep an eye on the thread and see how it goes. Im just thinking that touching that up may be hard, but worth a try. Im sure you will find a fix.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve, I have some Lockwood's dark brown walnut oil stain powder. I am wondering if I can use a small amount of this to tint some Zinsser SealCoat. The instructions end with the comment "always use shellac for first coater".
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Gary


I'm not familiar with the product but it wouldn't hurt to try it. Brush some on with a small brush and have a clean dry cloth handy in case it doesn't match. If it doesn't work quickly wipe it off. 

From what I read on their website the Lockwood powder is soluble in water or alcohol so it can be mixed with sealcoat.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not familiar with the product but it wouldn't hurt to try it. Brush some on with a small brush and have a clean dry cloth handy in case it doesn't match. If it doesn't work quickly wipe it off.
> 
> From what I read on their website the Lockwood powder is soluble in water or alcohol so it can be mixed with sealcoat.


 Steve, an early morning test will happen. Thank you.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

GAF said:


> Steve, an early morning test will happen. Thank you.
> 
> Gary


 Steve, the repair did NOT work so I will strip, sand, stain and top coat. Ugh. Stupid mistake on my part.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It just may be you don't have the right supplies. The work you are doing you need a large selection of different products and pigments to match colors. Sometimes straight pigment is enough but sometimes the color is transparent which is why I thought maybe the amber shellac might work. You will find out when touching up old furniture the finish was originally probably clear and over time has aged to a yellow cast. This is where the amber shellac comes in handy. It simulates the finish that is 40-50 years old.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It just may be you don't have the right supplies. The work you are doing you need a large selection of different products and pigments to match colors. Sometimes straight pigment is enough but sometimes the color is transparent which is why I thought maybe the amber shellac might work. You will find out when touching up old furniture the finish was originally probably clear and over time has aged to a yellow cast. This is where the amber shellac comes in handy. It simulates the finish that is 40-50 years old.




I am learning the hard way Steve. Good new advice.

The table skirt is now stripped without anything getting on the finished table top. Whew. The rest of the process should easy since I will duplicate what I did on the top. Just feels like a waste of time though.

Gary


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Like I said, those type of repairs are some times tricky and if the color is not dead on it will stand out when clear coated. If they used 2 colors under the clear that came off, sometimes its hard to duplicate unless you have dyes, etc on hand like Steve mentioned. When doing the apron, I think you will be ok because as long as its close to the top color, it will not hit you in the face. 

Probably doing the apron is for the best because now it will look like a new piece......just trying to make it sound good. :laughing:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Like I said, those type of repairs are some times tricky and if the color is not dead on it will stand out when clear coated. If they used 2 colors under the clear that came off, sometimes its hard to duplicate unless you have dyes, etc on hand like Steve mentioned. When doing the apron, I think you will be ok because as long as its close to the top color, it will not hit you in the face.
> 
> Probably doing the apron is for the best because now it will look like a new piece......just trying to make it sound good. :laughing:


 Randy, that table apron (that's a better word than skirt which I have been using) is done and it looks fine enough for me to move on to other issues. It does help the overall look.

Thanks.

Gary


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