# hand cut dovetails or router cut



## woodboxs (Aug 17, 2007)

I have been hereing a lot about router jigs an cutting dovetails on this blog. Well router cut dovtails are fine for someone who is doing mass production but for someone who is true to the craft should know how to cut dovetails by hand and use there skill as much as possible and nesscery. To cut dovetails by hand adds value to your work an now a days everyone wants to use machines an jigs not to say that jigs do not have there place in wood working becouse they do as machinces do as well. What is wroung with useing hand tools a long side machine tools somethings done with machince and some with hand tools. Chiesails are a handy tool them selfs you can do rumorus things with a good set of chieasls. I am still learning and i am always trying to improve and to be honest i need to work on my hand cut dovetails they are ok but need a little work around the edges. If anyone has an appinon feel free to post it.


----------



## BULLHART (Oct 30, 2006)

I agree that every cabinetmaker/ joiner should know how to hand cut dovetails. I do it from time to time too. But I sell my work in a competitive market. For example; my current project...a custom kitchen. Not only do I have all of your expected standard drawers and drawer banks, but also every standard shelf has been upgraded to a roll out shallow drawer. I have over 80 drawers to make in this kitchen, and perfection is expected. Now what would changing the order to hand cut tails do to the time and the cost of the project? As we've all experienced, to some customers, money and time is no object. I'm never the lowest bid, I'm usually in the middle or upper range. Even though I'm not into the lowest price game, I still have to be somewhat competitive. But I sell the job on my product, and my service. Every hour that is logged for a project carries not only a wage, but an overhead cost. I'd be happy to get paid to spend the time to build pieces with all of my hand tools, but 99% of the jobs _*THAT I COME ACROSS*_...it just isn't there.

Where does it stop? Why not cut all of your sheet stock with a hand saw. Why not use a brace instead of a drill? I still practice the old ways of our trade, but I got' bacon to bring home brother...lol


----------



## edp (May 25, 2007)

*I guess we could still drop our lumber with a buck saw and*

break out the boards with a pit saw setup. Then after they have aged for a few weeks we could work them down to size with an adze and broad axe. Then after we pinned everything together with dowels and leather strap hinges we could deliver it in our buckboard wagon.

In my mind, the craftsman that fails to allow the consumer and the practitioner to benefit from progress and innovation represented by modern tooling will be building for himself, his relatives and the roadside flea market.

My opinion. I said it and I meant it.

Ed


----------



## woodboxs (Aug 17, 2007)

*about hand cut dovetails*

Hello edp an thank you for the response. You are misunderstanding me I am not saying that we should not use power tools and jigs they have there place in wood working . But i think a good craftsman should know how to do these things. An i want to know do you know how to use your hand tools and hand planes. you know edp it dose not take to long to hand plane a board to make it smooth insyead of spending an hour sanding through different grit so talk about progress i know for a fact it is faster to hand plane a board an then just use fine sand paper to finsh smoothing the wood. Made if you came down to earth you might figure it out an realize that these tools still have a use. As far as flea markets go i guess i will have to watch for your junk at one sometime . Now i said it and i mean it edp . I do not want trouble on this blog but if you are going to insalut people then be ready for it to come back at you because i will return it ok edp.


----------



## woodboxs (Aug 17, 2007)

*dovtails*

Hello bull heart and thank you. I understand where you are coming from you have a business to run and put food on the table an i respect that . I am getting into business my self partime. I am a were i might have to buy a doveltail jig but for now i plane on cutting them by hand as work increases i probley get a jig. And only do it when i have to. Craftsman that are true to the craft know these skills but use them only when they have to an to make money you use power tools for mass production perpose. thank you.


----------



## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Analogy here with chidrens use of calculators. When I was teaching maths, the kids would say that the answer must be right 'because the calculator says so'. I discovered that the basic mental arithmetic skills were sadly lacking.

Same with tools/jigs etc. You must learn the basics to understand how the tool can aid you. Because I have no artistic skills my dovetails look awful. If I had to cut a few, then I would borow/buy a jig so at least they looked respectable. Ai least my pocket holes are better than using a batten or metal brackets to join wood.

However, I can take a great deal of pleasure from seeing the handiwork of you craftsmen on this forum.
johnep


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

woodbox, this is an age old argument on woodworking boards and usually goes south. I know from experience. I don't see how edp did anything but voice his opinion. 

Both handcut and jig cut have their place. Who can say which one is right for someone else. To each his own eh?


----------



## woodboxs (Aug 17, 2007)

Thank you texas timbers . I agree edp was just giving his opion and i do not want a big argument but to me it seemed like he was say that my work is no good or i am stuck in the dark ages and i get fired up if i think that is what is happen i grewup in the city and learned not to take any crap from anyone. I take wood working seriousley and it took me a while to learn how to cut doveltails by hand and i am still trying to improve they are considerably better but need a little work. And as for machine cut over hand both are fine but i think the hnd cut looks better when done right but takes longer . Thank again.


----------



## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Yeah very true but for philistines and lack of artistic ability like me. Its either a jig or no dovetails. 60 years since I last struggled with a set in woodwork class at school.

However, you have inspired me to try to mark out a set today and see what happens,=. I do have a nice new set of chisels. Trouble is, most wood we work with here in UK is particle board. No good for dovetails, but I do have some pine batten I could try.

I suspect that somewhere on the net is a prog for producing a drawing to use as pattern for various widths of wood.
johnep


----------



## Corndog (Apr 26, 2007)

I've never cut a dovetail in my life [well,maybe one]...hand, router jig or otherwise.
Not too many dovetails in guitars.:shifty:


----------



## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

*dovetails*

most acoustic guitars ,Mandolins. basses have a dovetail in the neck 
joint. most electric don't. I cut my dovetails by hand , less dust and noise. I don't do any large cabinetry jobs, just one peice at a time.
I quess I'm more of purist. Some time I have to fix mistakes, but can
be done.


----------



## woodboxs (Aug 17, 2007)

Hello johnep do not worry about cuting dovetails by hand it is easyer than you think. It just takes practice as for pine that is ok but not always the best wood. I recently cut some out of dark walnut an they came out ok but that might be to nice of wood for you to use if you have very little exsperiance for now stick to pine to practice then if possible move on. If you need advice then i might be able to help and i am shore some of the other guys on here will as well. Thank you again an let me know what is up.


----------



## Corndog (Apr 26, 2007)

jimmiet. said:


> most acoustic guitars ,Mandolins. basses have a dovetail in the neck
> joint. most electric don't. I cut my dovetails by hand , less dust and noise. I don't do any large cabinetry jobs, just one peice at a time.
> I quess I'm more of purist. Some time I have to fix mistakes, but can
> be done.


Yeah acoustics do...that's why I said "not too many".:shifty: Ain't none on electrics. That's all I build.


----------



## GilaJorge (Sep 14, 2007)

I use an OmniJig and really like it but do find I have to do some hand trimming from time to time...or my friend who works with me does...but then my friend cuts dovetails by hand....whereas I would not use dovetails absent the jig....quite an art....mastery takes a lot of time...


----------



## Phil Mitres (Oct 3, 2007)

*A Big hello from a new member*

*Ref Hand cut or router jig,*

I use a router jig all the time ,I can dovetail a box as quick as I can Mitre a Box, and the results are perfect everytime, i have my own joinery / carpentry bussiness and to dovetail a piece of work just adds that extra bit . The jigs are getting better and better all the time and there is no limit to the different type of dovetails you can make . Saying that , the jig I use was the cheapest on the market at about £30 or so


----------



## firewood (Oct 12, 2007)

I'm knew to this forum, and I hope you don't mind me chiming in.
I have spent a small fortune on hand tools, with the hope of learning to cut dovetails. I know and understand the the principles of a couple of different methods. I'm not making excuses, but my old and very arthritic hands just don't get the job done. Granted there is nothing more beautiful than hand cut dt's but for me it's pc 4210 for half blinds, and a keller for through dt's I'm jealous of you guys that do them with out jigs, but it's just to frustrating


----------



## GilaJorge (Sep 14, 2007)

Firewood: I have wandering tendenitis so completely empathize with your artheritis...but even so...I can do dovetails quicker and save my temper...fiddling with final fitting is bad enough...did I mention I am a type A personality with a hair trigger temper...LOL...often the smoke really flies when I am woodworking and it ain't from the sawblade...


----------



## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

*dovetails*

I think that if i spend the time to make a nice piece of furnitue, some thing that represents my work, I would cut my dovetails by hand. they are a thing of beauty and add soo much to the piece.
If im building a comercial piece such as vanitys or kitchen cabenits or whatever thats not a fine piece of furnitue then I would use a jig if i owned one. thats the way i feel about it.


----------



## firewood (Oct 12, 2007)

jimmiet. said:


> I think that if i spend the time to make a nice piece of furnitue, some thing that represents my work, I would cut my dovetails by hand. they are a thing of beauty and add soo much to the piece.
> If im building a comercial piece such as vanitys or kitchen cabenits or whatever thats not a fine piece of furnitue then I would use a jig if i owned one. thats the way i feel about it.


 
That seams a very sensible approach


----------



## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

*Whew, HOT TOPIC!*

Boy, you sure stirred up some emotions with this one! I think you're original post just came across as thinking we're all a bunch of lazy yahoos because we use jigs. I know you didn't mean it that way.

When I was a teenager, I learned the craft with hand tools. That was all I had. I believe that if you learn that way, you'll benefit greatly in the use of power tools, because after all, power tools are just a more expedient way to do the same things hand tools did. As has been said, power tools are a necessity to make a living at this. If you have to crank out a set of kitchen cabinets with drawers in a couple of months, there's no way you can do all of the work by hand. Thus, my Porter Cable Omnijig is permanently set up for dovetailing drawers. However, if I'm doing a high end piece of furniture, I sometimes cut the dovetails by hand. Sometimes I have cabinets with off angles and the drawers won't have 90 degree corners. These HAVE to be cut by hand. I also mortise and tenon all of my face frames, and these I do mostly by hand. 
While you may be able to hand plane a board faster than you can on a machine, what about 100 board feet of rough stock, in oak or maple? Not likely. Those guys in the old days were better men than I am.


----------



## Spyko (Nov 3, 2007)

Aren't the jigs the result of progress? Is there no "future antique" furniture being commercially produced today? 
I have a Q for you all... Do you think that the average carpenter or furniture maker from say 100-150 years ago would have turned down the offer of a router & jig or a surface planer? 
Great thread by the way.


----------



## dublinmark (Nov 10, 2007)

of course they would have....they were ARTISTS....just kidding

Here is where I'm at with it. I do this as a hobby only, I have a job,a wife, and two kids that I spend a lot of time with. I woodwork to have some time for myself, and I want to be able to complete projects in some reasonable amount of time. I learned to cut stuff by had when I first was starting and was ok at it, but I can get really good results with my Leigh and end up with something that I an proud to give away. My had cut stuff was good enought for me to live with, but the imperfections that I knew about would have prevented me from spreading the love. I still use my hand tools when it make sense, that is then it is quicker, or the boys are going to sleep and I'll get killed for making noise.

Maybe when I retire and have lots of time on my hands I will work on prefection, for now I'm going to take the easy way out.


----------



## Toms94 (Oct 31, 2007)

I like to do handcut joinery, but I can't afford to do it for most of the projects I do for others, they don't want to pay the premium for the time it takes to hand cut them. Jig-cut dovetails are good enough for that. 

If I have a period correct piece that requires such joinery I figure that into the cost, but then again the person is expecting a higher than normal cost due to the type of piece and the type of work.

I think that it is great that you are doing handcut joinery, but don't expect everyone to to be able to follow your suit. In many situations it just doesn't make sense.


----------



## woodman51jfk (Dec 10, 2007)

new here but feel like throwing in my nickel's worth......when I'm creating an heirloom piece of furniture, I will use my collection of vintage hand tools to more exactly replicate the techniques used by the old masters.........it's what commands the heirloom label, and price tag. On the other hand, when putting together a set of cabinets for a new home, or a remodel, or even an office or entertainment / computer center, I will always use the most efficient tools for the job, that I have available. I will offer dovetail joinery as an upgrade, but the vast majority of my client base feel that as long as the pieces stay together, look good, function for what they want, and I can get them into their possession as quickly and economically as possible...that's what they want. In this business you must satisfy your particular client base, if you want to survive in this custom cabinetmaking game............everyone is battling the "big box stores", and woodworkers are one of the last bastions of the fight..........a good number of us cast and reload our own ammunition, and tie our own flies, too.....it's just how we're made.........OK....time to switch to decaf...........


----------



## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

*dovetails*

I cut my dovetails by hand because I want to! I don't own a jig and don't want one, I (any one with a enough practice) can cut them almost as fast as a jig and router. I'm not in the cabinet business, I'm in the furnitue business so I afford my self the pleasure of hand work. Its what I do. Any one can do as they feel is best for them. I think many of you who feel you can't, could . Just have a little faith in youself ! some of you would only use jigs and thats fine. every one have a good christmas . 
J.t.


----------



## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

*I'd race you anyday, jimmiet*

Jimmiet., it takes me 5 minutes to set up for dovetailing with my router jig. After that, I can dovetail 20 drawers in ten minutes each. Guaranteed no contest. Structurally, they are every bit as strong as hand cut. Stronger than some of the skinny hand cut dovetails I've seen. There's much to be said for the ability to hand cut dovetails nicely, no doubt. I take pride in that ability, myself. But there's no call to be self-righteous about the fact that you prefer to do hand cut over machine cut. I have to wonder what your hourly wage works out to. And do you support a family? And on and on. As you said, you're doing furniture, not cabinets. It's all woodworking, but the scale is different. The bottom line is that machine cut dovetails DO NOT DIMINISH the quality of a piece in any way. As a couple people stated, they offer dovetails as an upgrade. Well, I don't make drawers any other way. Machine cut or hand cut, they are a step above the norm.


----------



## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

My comments were not meant to be self-righteous, its just the way I want to do it. I also said almost.. I'm not any better than the next guy and apalogize if I affended you or any one else. I think you read more in what I said than was in there. May have been worded better?? I still wish you merry christmas. j.t.


----------



## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

There`s more than one wellow brick road... and if you know what you`re doing they all lead to OZZ.


----------



## Nickbee (Nov 1, 2007)

here's a perspective of a newbie. I set up a new router table a few months ago with an Incra Ultra. I decided on that system because I knew it would be valuable for other things other than joints and dovetails. That being said the learning curve on making dovetails with it was incredibly short. After a few attempts with some scraps and learning how tight the joints should be I tried a corner post dovetail box with great results (a Xmas present for my sis):



















She liked it so much that I agreed to make her a matching in-box for her desk. That's being varnished now and came out even better (will post pics in a few days). 

That being said I see hand-cut dovetails that have narrow pins and know I can't create them on my set-up (or any other machine that I know of). That makes me want to learn "the old fashion way" also. I guess I'm doing things in reverse order (machine then hand), but I am having fun.


----------



## Jlight (Jan 7, 2008)

I recommend a DVD so you can make an educated choice.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5969

Rob Cosman is the best of the best. If you watch this it will be clear in your mind and why.

(I do have a Leigh DR4 too. I'm still not a purist when time is money...my latest drawers were dovetailed with a router. Most people don't know the difference to be honest)


----------



## DSallee (Feb 29, 2008)

Jlight, thanks for the link.. I'm also one that has never done any DT's by hand or jig... I think it would greatly benefit me to learn the "old school" way first and I'm anxious to get this DVD to learn...

Thanks
Dave


----------



## dafeesh (Mar 18, 2008)

I do a mix of machine and hand tools. I cut the tails with a band saw, and clean up the waste on a vertical sled over a dado blade. The pins I Hand saw, and again remove the waste with the dado stack. After that I finish up the fit with a chisel. I will be in the market for a jig when I finally get around to making the 12 drawers out of ply for my miter saw table/work hutch. I tried doing dovetails with only saw and chisel, and I need a lot of practice to get anything good, so for now I cheat a bit.


----------



## dpmcreations (Feb 3, 2008)

ahhh.. The age old question of modern folk... Honestly it really depends upon the person that is doing them... You have to understand that even though it is part of the "trade", it does require alot of practice and "artistry"... I love to do them via the hand method, but it really depends upon what type of project I am on... When I am on a custom kitchen or a large project, I normally do them via machine method... I love to cut them by hand, but economics determince much in the way of technique these days regrettably... So onto the craftsmanship question.... Cutting dt's by hand is an artform, albeit a relatively easy one, once proper techniques are learned... The only other problem that many people face is a limited amount of time...

So the question is do I feel that a person should know how too, yes I do if they have the physical capabilities to do them... Do I think that they should have to do it everytime.. Hey that is entirely dependent upon the person....


----------



## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

woodboxs said:


> I have been hereing a lot about router jigs an cutting dovetails on this blog. Well router cut dovtails are fine for someone who is doing mass production but for someone who is true to the craft should know how to cut dovetails by hand and use there skill as much as possible and nesscery.


Why? Isn't the digital artist or the fine art photographer just as much of an artist as a portrait painter? Look at commercially viable arts since the 1960s, such as signage, advertising layout and television ads. The arts progress with time and technology. Why is the sophistication of the tool a detriment to the art?



> To cut dovetails by hand adds value to your work an now a days everyone wants to use machines an jigs not to say that jigs do not have there place in wood working becouse they do as machinces do as well.


How is it that cutting dovetails by hand adds value to your work? And no, not everyone wants to use machines an (sic) jigs... From the replies to the original poster, it is quite obvious there are plenty that cut dovetails by hand, and it seems to give them a good sense of accomplishment. And I applaud them.



> What is wroung with useing hand tools a long side machine tools somethings done with machince and some with hand tools.


Nothing is wrong with using hand tools alongside machine tools. There are certain tasks, and certain situations where it makes more sense to use a hand tool.



> Chiesails are a handy tool them selfs you can do rumorus things with a good set of chieasls.


Uh, agreed I think.. Yes chisels are very handy, and you can perform a good many tasks with them.



> I am still learning and i am always trying to improve and to be honest i need to work on my hand cut dovetails they are ok but need a little work around the edges. If anyone has an appinon feel free to post it.


Keep working on them, and keep refining your art for sure. But don't disparage others for working with the tools they feel gives them the best results. Each person is different.

If's funny. This debate changes only slightly, with minor details changing from joinery and woodworking, to automobiles, and all the way to camping. This is like watching a camping forum where people discuss why ultralight backpacking is so much better than touring the country in a class A motorhome. Either one is pretty cool by me, but they have different purposes to give you different experiences...


----------



## LarrySch (Dec 31, 2007)

Hand cut dovetails are a real talent, and to me people who do that are true craft persons. But I have very seldom seen anyone that is not involved in woodworking look at hand crafted dovetails and make any comments on them. They just do not care - so if your doing hand crafted dovetails, your doing it for your own personal pride and enjoyment and that is just great.


----------



## Geoguy (Feb 22, 2008)

*Saw recommendations??*

I've recently decided I want to learn how to make hand-cut dovetails. I've been woodworking for about six years and have made a few router-cut half-blind dovetail joints but have never thought of myself as much of a craftsman to try it by hand. I'm mostly a wood hack! I recently started a dresser, I'm building for my son, and I'd like to put a little something extra into it.

I've compiled some info, sharpened a couple chisels, acquired a marking knife and some new coping saw blades, but I don't have a good back saw or other type small hand saw. I know many of you are accomplished dovetailers - can you recommend a good saw. 

Thanks,
Terry


----------



## Jlight (Jan 7, 2008)

Geoguy,

If you have $125 lying around for the real deal...Lie Neilson Dovetail Saw is the only saw. But don't take my word for it...get the Rob Cosman videos and see if you can appreciate it. I know I must look like a Rob Cosman mark by now but so beit...if someone else has quality evidence for an alternate method I would watch it.

Everyone,

Again, I have jigs and do use them most of the time to save...well...time. But a hand-cut dovetail with thin pins that cannot be cut by machine are stunning and raise the value of a piece significantly. If you are inclined to cut fat pins, there is absolutely no value added that they were cut by hand outside of pride of craftmanship.

Most people don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about...and that's OK. The ones that have done it themselves would agree.

Stop flaming people on this subject. It's not a topic worthy of debating or assuming someone a fool for their opinion.


----------



## Capt Crutch (Jan 21, 2008)

I guess I'm just a wannabe engineer when it comes to woodworking, and I go for the easiest "Keep It Simple Stupid" route for most of this stuff, and if I can substitute a joint that's just as strong as a dovetail (or as strong as it needs to be) and if it only takes me 10% of the time that it would take me to cut (let alone LEARN to cut) a hand-cut dovetail, I'm all over it.

Hand-cut dovetails are nice, but I'm not sure their beauty or strength or "purity" is worth the time and effort it would take to become decent and efficient at cutting them on a regular basis.

I think I can get a much better "bang for the buck" if I spend an equal amount of time learning to cut various machine-cut joints, such as the dado-rabbet, various types of mortise and tenon, finger joints, various miters, etc., etc., etc.

It all boils down to the tools that are in common current usage. In the olden days, probably _all_ cabinetmakers cut dovetails simply because they didn't _have_ Leigh jigs, and because everyone _expected_ them to cut dovetails all the time...so they cut dovetails all day long, and got good at it, but they probably weren't good at a lot of _other_ things that most cabinetmakers today _are_ good at...like raising panels on the table saw, or cutting dados with a router, or whatever...

There is value and importance in using a hand tool well, but there's also value and importance and skill in using a powered tool well. I suppose you're "closer to the work" with hand tools, but in the end they're just different skills. And amperage helps move the wood through the shop faster, which is probably a good thing. YMMV.

Not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" ... just different. Beyond the joy of working the wood, we _are_ trying to reach an endpoint, which is a functional and aesthetically pleasing piece of homemade furniture, no?


----------



## JON BELL (Nov 2, 2007)

How's this...hand cut dts aren't that difficult and are not a sign of a craftsman.How do I know,because *I *can make them.To me being able to do something like square up a piece of rough stock with hand tools is much more craftmanzie.Whats the hard part of hand cut dts,cutting to the line?:laughing: Try making some goose neck molding,or legs curved on all 4 sides.Hell,I've made jigs that were harded.


----------



## Capt Crutch (Jan 21, 2008)

What's goose neck molding?


----------



## Thalweg (Mar 7, 2008)

I’ve got to concur with Jon Bell. Cutting dovetails by hand isn’t that difficult. A few years back I wanted to use dovetails on a box I was making, so I bought a cheapie piece-o-junk dovetail jig and tried to learn how to use it. After a while, I got frustrated with the jig and threw it in a box (where it still lives today) and found a book that showed how to cut them by hand. It took a couple of hours of practice, but I found that after you’ve done a few, they’re pretty intuitive. So now, when I want a dovetail, I don’t hesitate to cut it by hand. However, I’m not a professional woodworker. If it takes me a couple of nights to build a single drawer, it’s no big deal. I don’t see how a pro could justify not using a jig. It’d be hard to pay the bills cutting them by hand. Someday I’ll buy a Leigh or Omni jig, and my hand cutting will diminish significantly. I think the moral of the story is: don’t be scared to try to cut some dovetails by hand. It isn’t that tough.

Now, like Jon said; squaring up some rough stock using block planes; that scares me.


----------



## JON BELL (Nov 2, 2007)

The curved molding on the top that looks like a goose neck.Never made it,but just mitering it looks "challenging".I got a Lonnie Bird crownmolding set which seems like it will make it easier,but it's still in the box:smile:


----------



## The General (Aug 12, 2008)

Just purchased a machine and is great check out www.richlinemachines.com


----------

