# green wood and milling questions



## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Hello all,

I have a 40' maple tree, 3' wide, which is burled from top to bottom. The most unique tree I've ever seen. I'd like to cut it into cross sections to use for table tops. Is there any way I can simply apply a sealer and instantly polyurethane the wood to keep it from splitting?

Obviously, I'm a newbie... I understand there must be some sort of treatment, but... which one? My sawmill guy swears it can be done with PEG, but is it economical to do or is there an easier way?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kev


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

i would not put a poly on green wood,


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Here is some reading on cross sections. http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/3ft-oak-disc-16497/ There are links within that link to read...

Having said that, firstly we like pictures. And secondly why cut it into cookies, here is a cool log saw out.http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f26/how-much-should-i-pay-log-13003/

A few cookies sure, but don't get too hell bent on it, maybe not the best use for the log. 

Welcome BTW, oh and pictures 



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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Thanks, Daren.
I will post pics in the next day or so. This tree is fantastic... It has epicormic branches from the bottom up, along with the burls themselves, and some are growing out of the burls. My sawmiller said he's never seen anything like it in 30 years of working wood.

When branches go epicormic, the tree dies from the top down. So, the top is gone so there is a chance (according to what he tells me) there may be some spalting as well.

Just a fantastic, ugly tree. Can't wait to show you guys.

K


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## Gerald (Aug 21, 2008)

Pictures :yes:


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## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

Might I add, I would like to see some pictures of that tree. 

If it as good as it sounds I would saw it instead of cutting cookies.


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## cody.sheridan-2008 (May 23, 2010)

Did anyone mention we like pictures yet? If not PICTURES!!!!!!!!


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## slabmaster (Mar 30, 2008)

*maple tree*

I would rip saw the whole tree for nicer lumber. Crosscut lumber is just too prone to crack and harder to finish. Looking forward to see pictures!:yes:


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## Roger Newby (May 26, 2009)

Pictures?


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

OK, sorry for the delay. Thanksgiving. Large family, don't you know... 

I'll take a better one next time I go out. I snapped two before my camera battery died. This is the better one. The burls go up another 15 feet or so before the tree becomes dead and rotten at the top. Below it, it seems pretty solid, and my sawmiller agrees with my analysis. 

This is gonna be fun. I have to wait another month (hopefully less) before I can engage in the project, otherwise I'm told the wood will stain when it's cut. I'm taking his advice and waiting until the tree is dormant. 

This pic doesn't do the tree justice. You can see the epicormic branches growing out of the burls themselves. It should be fabulous figure underneath.

I'd love to hear comments and advice.

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Cool, what is the diameter ?

I dragged some pictures out of my ''old gallery" here, not to derail your thread. Just add some credence to my advice, should you need it in the future. I mill a lot of burled logs. *Most* of the time the burls are only "skin deep" meaning once the burl is gone the heartwood is pretty plain


K Rex said:


> it should be fabulous figure underneath.


...Let's hope yours is one of the rare exceptions (like the one I linked earlier, that burled/spalted monster)
If nothing else that is indeed a funky tree, even if the figure doesn't go deep (my guess it does not) there is quite abit of burl there to play with.


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Yes, hoping they penetrate deeper into the trunk as well. There are a couple spots where they appear as if they might go deeper into the wood than the rest of the tree. My uneducated opinion.

How should I work this tree?

I am hoping to use some of this wood as instrument veneer. If it works out, I will ship it to a guy in NC who will turn it into an electric bass for me. He does great work. www.dpcustom.com

I also have a burled sweet gum... I will take pics of that as well. I have 30 acres in Virginia Beach, bought a year ago, and I'm just now finding out the goodies on the property. Some huge, fabulous white oaks, but I don't think I could bring myself to cut them down. I also suspect that I have a curled beech tree. Is that possible?

Kev


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh, the diameter is just short of 3 feet. My sawmill dude can't do anything bigger than that. 

Anyone have any words on the efficacy of pentacryl? Is it worth pursuing as an alternative to PEG or should I give up on the idea of doing a few cookies for tabletops? Also, is beeswax a suitable sealant to use for this purpose?

How long will it take to air dry planks vs kiln drying?

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

K Rex said:


> How should I work this tree?


It's always the sawyer on the spots call. But if I had it here I would do what you originally asked about, cut a cookie near the end/cutting a burl in cross section. This will tell you what to expect. If you see "rays" for the lack of a better term going into the center of the log then the figure is running deep. If you can see where the burl starts growing mostly on the surface then you pretty much know they are just in the later growth. Meaning the heartwood is going to not be as figured.

Just spitballing here (since it's not on my sawmill deck) in similar cases where the burls are just on the surface I slice the outside off trying to save the bigger burls for later processing. Then just saw the cant that is left over for lumber. It's tough though, a couple thick live edge slabs smack from the middle with burled edges would look killer too if the log could be rolled just right. Neat bar tops or something.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

K Rex said:


> ... should I give up on the idea of doing a few cookies for tabletops?
> 
> How long will it take to air dry planks vs kiln drying?


No, it looks like you have plenty there to work with, a couple cookies even if they fail are worth a shot at least.

Depends how thick. A kiln can dry wood in a couple weeks that would take a solid year to air dry.

Your questions about pentacryl and PEG I cannot answer with any personal experience. I hope others chime in. Wax is going to for sure slow down the drying, which will help hold them together, but-well slow down the drying big time. Some things are worth waiting for though.



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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Today I decided to tuck my hair into a blaze-orange hat and go exploring the far boundaries of my property. I believe I found some curled maple (although it isn't a particularly large specimen), two more burled maples (one being profoundly twisted and ugly at the bottom with no burls above) and more possible curled beech.

Pictures forthcoming.

Kev


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Here are a few more; a twisted burled maple tree base, an alternate view of the large maple (gives you a better idea of how ugly and thickly burled the tree is... on all sides but especially this one) and a 3' diameter beech which looks curled to me. Is this wrinkling typical of the bark of the species or is it indicative of curling?

In any case, I will be milling the maple just after Christmas. I will share every step with you guys.

Any thoughts on pentacryl? Also, I have tons of sweet gum on the property. Anyone have any experience and/or advice on working this wood?

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

K Rex said:


> Is this wrinkling typical of the bark of the species or is it indicative of curling?
> 
> Also, I have tons of sweet gum on the property. Anyone have any experience and/or advice on working this wood?


I am not seeing what you are seeing, maybe it's just the picture. _Usually_ you have to get under the bark. http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f26/i-can-smell-em-mile-away-9424/

Sweetgum is nice wood to work with, once dry...it's a PITA to dry though. Mill it thicker than you need and put everything you have on the stack to try to keep it flat. It likes to cup/twist. I gave up on milling 4/4 sweetgum lumber years ago, I go 6/4 to get 4/4 and so on. It sure spalts nice though, and is a little tamer drying once spalted. I have some spalting right now, should have been ready by fall...no such luck so now I have to wait until spring to mill it.



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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

And I edited the title of your thread from just "green wood". Many people (members and visitors) use the search function. They can look things up without asking questions that have been asked many times already.



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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

That's exactly what I needed to know regarding the sweet gum. I grow mushrooms, and last year felled a sweet gum, sectioning it into 5' lengths, and never inoculated it with mushroom spawn (because my life got nutty). So there it still sits, with fungal activity present on the ends some 6 months later.

It could be nicely spalted, and I suspect it is, although I won't know until I split some. It could also be ruined. I'll find out for sure. Could be nice turning stock at least. 

Thanks for trying to call some attention to this thread. I'm a musician, soapmaker and farmer, with little to no experience. I hope to get a "leg up" by interacting with the good folks on this site, and so far you have been a wealth of info, Daren.

I intend to go through with the milling as I said. My fingers are crossed. What happens to the boards after they are milled... I'm a bit nervous about that, having no experience and all...

Cheers,

Kev


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## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

Hey Kev, Yes that wrinkling is indicative of beech. Sorry to say, more than likely there will not be any curl under there. I can't believe Daren couldn't see the wrinkles in the picture usually he has super man vision and sees things that no else sees.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I saw the wrinkles...just not what I thought was the signs of curl. 





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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Dang!

I will confine my attention to the Maple for now. I'm a really excited newb, and trying not to get too stoked about all the super-large white oak and other nice trees on the property.

After all, I don't have my own mill... I must rely on those who need payment for services rendered, and barter if possible. It isn't unrealistic to believe one might trade those services (at least in part) for some nice boards when they come out.



> Then just saw the cant that is left over for lumber. It's tough though, a couple thick live edge slabs smack from the middle with burled edges would look killer too if the log could be rolled just right. Neat bar tops or something.


Daren, should I infer from this that I should plainsaw this tree as opposed to quartersawing?

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I see absolutely no reason to 1/4 saw maple. For sure not one with burls all over it, knock those off and flat saw the heartwood.

You may get a guy to "share cut", trade his labor for part of the lumber. I do that here, mostly just on walnut-cherry or something I need at the time/something unique. I do a 50/50 on those (one board for you=one board for me) . I am not interested in say share cutting oak though, not enough profit to be had. I would need 2/3+ of the lumber to make my numbers work out. And I don't even like oak to begin with. I charge $0.35 bft to mill...I can buy all the oak sawlogs I want delivered for $0.25 bft. (most I get for free) Cherry and walnut logs are selling for ~$0.40-$0.50 bft, so take out my gas/wear and tear blah blah...on a share cut it works out pretty fair.



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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Not sure what you mean by "knock them off". You mean for turning blanks and such? I was thinking of plainsawing it straight through and having a freaky-looking natural table which may have straight grain in the middle, but burled, figured "wings" on the sides. 

Or, are you saying that some boards could be made by sawing the burled sides off into planks? I'm so new at this... ugh...

I feel the same way about oak... except white oak. I think it's rather pretty.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I said it was a tough call, one best made on the sawmill deck. 



Daren said:


> Just spitballing here (since it's not on my sawmill deck) in similar cases where the burls are just on the surface I slice the outside off trying to save the bigger burls for later processing. Then just saw the cant that is left over for lumber. It's tough though, a couple thick live edge slabs smack from the middle with burled edges would look killer too if the log could be rolled just right. Neat bar tops or something.
> .


Yes by "knock them off" I mean slice the outside off, removing the burls. Like I said for later processing, be it resaw in thinner veneers or just chunked up for turning.

And a slice or 2 out of the middle could be cool, with the natural edge and the burls intact...but it's hard to do both. You will ruin _some_ burls just cutting the center out. What do you want as a finished product ?

It looks like _that_ tree is long enough you can do both. Cut the log into a couple shorter pieces and just flat saw one completely out. Lay it on the deck and just slice it through and through without moving it. The other piece(s) cut the burls off and do the other thing I mentioned, get what burls you can and saw the heartwood for lumber.

Here is a blast from the past on this forum. http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f6/burl-log-44/


Steve milled these logs. As funky as they look, he admitted the heartwood was no different than any other maple. Very typical.












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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm taking your advice. I will shoot for two end-pice cookies, two nice slabs through the middle with burl "wings", and remove the rest for turning... in the hopes I can score a cheap lathe soon...

As I said before, I suspect a good bit of spalting. I'm losing my patience.

I also knocked off a piece of that sweet gum, and it's spalted toward the end, but not the middle yet. I think I should have sealed the ends? It seems like it may rot on the ends before the middle is spalted. Any tips, Daren?

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I don't seal the ends of logs I am spalting. I am dealing with longer lengths so if I lose some to checking at the ends no big deal. I just let my spalt logs lay in the shade and let mother nature do the rest. Some species are easy to spalt, some are harder, sweetgum being one of the easier ones.




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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Do you lay them flat as I have, or do you turn them to discourage rot on one side of the log? Also, how long do you leave your logs before inspecting them for signs of spalting?

Incredible figure in sweetgum. I never knew... there certainly is no shortage of it here in Virginia Beach. Hope I can control the warping when I attempt to mill some. I'll most likely do it first, and stack the maple on top when I'm done, to make it behave.

k


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I don't even look at them for a year, they go dormant from about this time until March (too cold) here. My logs get moved around, just because I don't have much room (live in town-have many logs). But I have milled fantastic spalted logs that I picked up right where they fell, just found them and milled them. Heck even some that never fell, spalted standing. 

It's a trial and error thing, and a patience game. You will be lucky to get it just right on your first shot (or 10).

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f26/show-me-your-spalt-pile-18532/


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

I've sawn off a few burls from one of the other trees on my property, and am now confronted by a new problem: How do I get the bark off the suckers? That's the tightest daggone bark I've ever seen... a pressure washer, perhaps? 

Any insight?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Pressure washer will take some off, some you are just going to have to pick off, very tedious. (very)





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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

K Rex said:


> . . . How do I get the bark off the suckers? That's the tightest daggone bark I've ever seen...


I have a free burl-bark removal service. Send me the burls and I will remove the bark, and send all of the bark to you. :shifty:







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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

You know, I've got so many I literally don't know what to do with them all. I now know of 4 burled trees on the property, all maples, and one of which I believe is almost dead. That's the one I've been cutting from, and the burls are pretty small but would be great for turning stock. Problem is, I don't own a lathe. Anyone know a place I can get a good, cheap lathe? What do you guys recommend?

Daren, I also neglected to mention my sawyer's fee... is $80 per hour and $35 per blade a reasonable price to pay or am I getting ripped?

k


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

$35 a blade is higher than most charge (they only cost $20-$25 new). The $80/hr is not totally unreasonable if he has a good machine and knows how to use it. Guys who custom saw charge by the board foot sawn out or by the hour. When messing with small or odd logs that require a lot of handling we can't make enough bft in an hour to pay ourselves fairly. $80 is on the high end of the pay scale, assuming you are taking the logs to him. If he is coming to you then that makes a difference. At the end of the day, like I said if he has a good machine and knows how to use it, $80 still equals a heck of a stack of lumber each hour. Way more lumber than you could ever buy for the same $, and it is cut to your exact specs.

Edit: And also assuming that $35 per blade = blades ruined by hitting metal, not just dulled by normal sawing. @ $80/hr that should include normal blade wear, a band will saw several logs before it gets dull (then can be resharpened for $8, if he doesn't do it himself).



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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

I think it will be another week or maybe two before I cut and mill the burled monster in the back woods... Pretty broke after Christmas, and now I'm zapped of energy to boot. I did manage to hand carve one of the burls I cut, and here is the result... the very first thing I've ever done with wood in my little old life. :thumbsup:

I stained it with a cheapo stain I found on the back porch and then some polyurethane. 

Can't wait to see what the big ones will look like on a table. I'm thinking I'll incorporate some of the spalted sweet gum I have for trim... if I can manage to cure it without disaster ensuing... 

Will keep you updated.

Kev


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

K Rex,
Beautiful Burl :thumbsup:!!!! How much dry time???Is that moisture already gathering under poly:thumbdown: or flash glare:blink::blink:???
Looks like you've got a lot of beautiful wood. Please take the time to dry properly for most value. If all the burls have that character they'll be nice. If using or saling for turning blanks I think there's a different saving/storage process needed for premium long term needs. I'm sure others here can give you the proper advice for business or personal usage. You've got unusual amount of burls, I've got 200 acres and don't recall any burls spotted over the 15 years @ 60% timber. Just the difference in location.
Have a Blessed day and fun turning,
Tim


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## reberly (Jan 9, 2011)

*Wax*

I sometimes mill burls to make slabs and I would strongly agree with Daren about avoiding cookies and milling slabs. I would also consider using Anchorseal, a wax emulsion, to protect the wood as it dries. I am not sure if it is a PEG solution or not?
Rich


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Hi Guys,

Haven't seen you in a while... After one heck of a winter, and one hell of a summer approaching, I have no money to pay a sawmiller to do this work for me. The tree is in danger of rotting if I wait another summer (the tree developed epicormic branches years ago), and I need to act if I want to get anything out of it at all. 

I have decided to risk sawing cross-sections... cookies... out of the tree and wanted to draw on your collective expertise to guide me. I understand that cutting at a 30-45 degree angle will minimize cracking, and that maple (it's a maple) is less susceptible to cracking in the first place. I have also read in a number of places that regular antifreeze will assist in reducing the number of cracks. It is likely spalted... I wonder if the antifreeze will affect the spalting?

So, not a perfect strategy, but it's all I have for now. Will you good folks lend me your thoughts? 

It's one hell of a big, ugly tree. I'm getting excited, even at the risk of failure, but I will work with the disks... even if they are cracked. I'll also be cutting some of the huge burls for eventual turning.

Kev


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Perhaps I should pose these questions in a new thread?

K


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Yes cutting cookies on a bias will better your odds of success drying them in one piece. I have never heard of using regular antifreeze, so I cannot advise. The rest of your questions were already answered, I thought.




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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Do a search for the antifreeze thing. I was able to find some interesting info on the subject, and some swear it works. Supposedly, regular glycol-based antifreeze works better than using PEG, as it penetrates more quickly and finishes will actually take whereas PEG-treated wood cannot take a finish. However, I could be totally wrong... guess I'll find out. It's all or nothing as for my project, and I have to find a way to do it.

Anyone have any experience with this?

Kev


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I've heard of the antifreeze thing and think I even tried it once. If I did I don't remember the results. Daren has heard of it too but his memory is shot. Mine is like a steel trap. One that is shut - nothing old can come out and nothing new can get in. :blink:


I do remember reading some saying it's better than PEG. I didn't much care for PEG I still have half a jug lying around. I did have success with polycryl but it's not for your application. I think you ought to try the antifreeze. It's not gonna hurt and I think it will help. Anytime you can slow the drying process it will help minimize checking to *some* degree. Maybe won't help enough but maybe it will. Like you say you got to do something. I think PEG and antifreeze are chemically almost identical aren't they? 










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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

TexasTimbers said:


> ..... I think PEG and antifreeze are chemically almost identical aren't they?


PEG is a polymer of individual units of the monomer "poly ethylene glycol" found in the 'pet safe' antifreeze. Don't think they sell much of the non-green ethylene glycol antifreeze nowadays. Could be wrong. The polymer is a chain of around 1000 units of the monomer I think.


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## cw log&veneer (Mar 7, 2011)

the lines you are seeing on the beech bark are very commonly found on beech trees , as daren said you need to look under the bark to see if it is curled,also you can almost always find a little curl at the base of hard maple trees and around large limb knots, look up the tree a few feet under the bark to see if it still has curl. my two cents worth


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Better late than never, yes? Will post more photos as they become available. I'm bartering two baby goats (both bucks!) for the work. The guys in the photo really freaked when they saw the tree.

Kev


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## bob sacamano (Jan 24, 2012)

how can you tell from the outside if its plain maple or curly maple ? 
i thought you could only tell once its milled

is curly maple a phenomina such as spalting or is it a sub-species of maple ?


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

No, not the same thing. Spalting happens when the tree is infected with a fungus.

Incidentally, the tree has some spalting in it as well as the massive burls. I'm cutting some cookies on a 45 degree bias, brushing it down with antifreeze, and saying some prayers. The rest I'll be trying to make some slabs... cutting the "wings" off the tree, maybe for benches, maybe for tabletops. We'll see. 

The work is being done with a milling chain on a 38" blade... just big enough to get through its diameter. All by hand, can't afford a sawyer, and the tree would have died if I waited too much longer, or so I thought before I cut the danged thing. Maple's pretty hard stuff. This is a good specimen... super excited to take more pics.

kev


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## bob sacamano (Jan 24, 2012)

how are you planning to get that out of the forest and cut it ?


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Cut some cookies, heavy spalting throughout the entire tree. This stuff is seriously addictive. Cutting some slabs tomorrow. Darin was partly wrong. The burls go through to the heartwood in many places in the tree, but not all. 

Dig these pics. More later.

Kev


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

K Rex said:


> Cut some cookies... Darin was partly wrong. The burls go through to the heartwood in many places in the tree, but not all.


:confused1: 



Daren said:


> ... But if I had it here I would do what you originally asked about, cut a cookie near the end/cutting a burl in cross section. This will tell you what to expect. If you see "rays" for the lack of a better term going into the center of the log then the figure is running deep.
> .


:shutup:



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## qbilder (Dec 19, 2010)

I would have LOVED to get that log. I'm sure the cookies look nice, but slabbed would have produced a lot of useable wood for me. 

I think Darren was spot on, BTW. The burly looks to be surface as the growth rings look very consistent in the core of the tree. No doubt there's still a little figure from crinks & bends, but burl looks to be only surface.


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

Sanding tabletops now. So excited, better than I had ever hoped.

K


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## qbilder (Dec 19, 2010)

Those look fantastic! Did you get some slabs? Or only cookies?


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## K Rex (Nov 23, 2010)

They're mostly cookies, although I'm working on one slab.

Does anyone here have some good advice on filling cracks? I don't wanna use that turquoise crap, but would love a nice jade color in a couple spots. And I have a large crack that needs to be bonded/filled as well. Thought about stuffing bark into the large part, and filling with sawdust and epoxy slurry?

Any ideas?

Kev


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## qbilder (Dec 19, 2010)

You can get wood filler in black that looks good. For stone, you can go to a pet store & get colored fish tank gravel. Fill it into a hole or crack & back fill with epoxy. Sand it flush & it looks great. Nobody would ever guess it's fish tank rocks. People laugh at me when I tell them about it, but it looks really good and is cheap. I get turquoise & other stone here locally at a jewelry shop. They grind up the stone or chip it into small pieces. You can choose from numerous granule sizes. Works pretty well. 

Either way you need to seal up the bottom of the hole/crack to create a reservoir, or else your epoxy will spill out the bottom & make a terrible mess.


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