# Kickback



## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

Should have posted it here instead of power tools. This is a cautionary tale!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4


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## FishFactory (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow. Spooky. I am one that takes all the safety features off equipment, always have, just easier that way. I will definitely reconsider.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Don't be misled that only small sections can go flying. I had an employee 6' and over 200 lbs that got a full sheet of ¾" ply caught. It flew back at a slight angle, hit him in the stomach, and drove him back off his feet. The saw was a 3hp Unisaw. He had some bad bruising, and the wind knocked out.


















.


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## TexasLegend (Jun 8, 2013)

FishFactory said:


> Wow. Spooky. I am one that takes all the safety features off equipment, always have, just easier that way. I will definitely reconsider.


We don't have safety features on any of our equipment, it just gets in the way.


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

"It just gets in the way"...the number one excuse for not using (or even removing!) the safeguards on machinery... leading to high incidences of injuries, hospitalization and and even deaths. In the workplace, deliberate removal of guards & other safety devices is a serious offense and punishable by fines, in the event of an OSHA inspection finding. Sadly, in the home environment, OSHA has no say over how we use our home shop power tools - I wonder if insurance companies raise premiums when (if?) they find out a homeowner was injured by improper use of their tools...


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## TexasLegend (Jun 8, 2013)

We've been in business for over thirty years and no ones lost a finger or any other body part, you just have to know how to use your machines.


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

All it takes is one incident or complaint.


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## PhilipCollier (Jan 2, 2012)

While i understand the thinking of 'it has never happened', I also know it takes just one moment of distraction. For me I just remember Murphy has it out for me so when I can I leave all safety devices on. My TS had all removed by someone else and i've been trying to find inexpensive replacements for them.


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## TexasLegend (Jun 8, 2013)

I'm not advocating the removal safety features I'm just saying different people do things differently and there's nothing wrong with that.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

From the tablesaw accident stats, I don't remember if there was a distinction made if the safety devices were removed...primarily the blade guard. I can't say that all accidents are operator error. If the cause of an accident can be attributed to some unforseen condition or circumstance, then I say it would have been better for it to be forseen. Well, that takes it back to the operator, doesn't it.

















.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it's about the physics and proper operation*

Most kickbacks occur because the piece loses it's contact on the fence at the rear of the blade, rolls up and over the blade and is "returned to sender"....you the operator. By applying pushing force inward towards the fence you will reduced the possibility of a kickback. 
Placing a curved edge against the fence or a twisted board will also increase the likelihood of a kickback. 

Removing the blade guard which is usually part of the splitter will increase the possibility of a kickback and there will be no cover over the spinning blade, an added risk. For those who are inclined to take those risks, that is certainly a choice. In my case I can't make a partial depth kerf with the splitter attached. That cut does not expose the blade fully either, and for that reason, it's safer.

A board that closes down at the rear of the blade because the internal stresses have been released will also kickback. A splitter or riving knife in the kerf will reduce that possibility.
Here's a great video:


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

I've gotten into the habit of standing off to one side instead of right in line with the blade...that way I hopefully avoid a kicked back piece...it definitely helps to push both against the fence as well as forward. My saw has some spring - loaded backwards-facing "jaws" attached to that piece that sticks up right behind the blade path(can't remember what it's called)that prevent the piece from moving backwards as you feed it thru the saw.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

igster said:


> I've gotten into the habit of standing off to one side instead of right in line with the blade...that way I hopefully avoid a kicked back piece...it definitely helps to push both against the fence as well as forward.


Putting yourself in an uncomfortable operating position can be a cause for poor operator technique.



igster said:


> My saw has some spring - loaded backwards-facing "jaws" attached to that piece that sticks up right behind the blade path(can't remember what it's called)that prevent the piece from moving backwards as you feed it thru the saw.


Usually called "anti-kickback pawls".


















.


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

Thx...gotta remember the name . 

You're right, working in an uncomfortable position can take your focus away from the cutting and make one think more about the crick in his side instead of where he's putting his fingers when pushing stock thru the saw.


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## jjrbus (Dec 6, 2009)

They also do not differentiate between accident and stupidity. We can work on preventing accidents. I have seen T shirts proclaiming you can't fix stupid!!
JIm


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

In the immortal words of Ron 'Tater Salad' White Lol


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## Carvel Loafer (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok, bear with me on this one guys; we are all entitled to our rants. 

I work with a very old Atlas table saw. I bought it from the company I used to work for many years ago. It was placed in storage from my shop at that company because it was not practical to upgrade it with a guard; replaced it with a nice Unisaw with a Uniguard. The reason we clamped down on the requirement to have guards on all equipment is that a guy in the shop just next to mine lost two fingers on a table saw without a guard. When a table saw grabs a piece of work you do not know exactly what it is going to do, it happens far too fast and very often there is lots of blood involved.

Now I have that old un-guarded Atlas in my home shop, I found an old splitter that I think I can adapt to it and plan to shortly. In my opinion a splitter is more important that the overhead guard but a good overhead guard, like the Uniguard, has enough flexibility to not be cumbersome.

I don't know about in the USA but in Canada there is a legal obligation of the employer to ensure guards are employed on equipment designed with guards. The law goes as far as holding individuals personally liable for their actions. In other words if I allow my employee to work without guards and there is an incident I could be criminally charged personally as well as the company.

Don't misunderstand me, I get the whole guard in the way thing. Like I said, I still don't have one on my personal saw. But having mopped up blood from the table saw to the first aid room there is a lasting respect for decent guards. I know, the operator has to know what he is doing with or without a guard, but a good guard does work.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yea, he's an idiot alright. First of all I think those type of push blocks are dangerous and prone to let the wood slip anyway but he was pushing down hard and turning the wood into the blade. Kickbacks happen to anyone regardless of how experienced they are but the more experienced person will keep their hands where with kickback won't draw their hands into the blade. I remember one time picking a guys thumb up off the floor and rushing it to the hospital after the shop owner rushed the guy there. He had been cutting a used board that had a staple sticking down and when the staple hung on the saw table the guy reached behind the saw to lift the board up. When it kicked back it drew his hand right through the blade.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

TexasLegend said:


> We don't have safety features on any of our equipment, it just gets in the way.


I may be wrong but doubt it very seriously. If the day comes that an employee loses a digit or more in your shop and it is documented that you, as an employer took the safety gear off of the equipment, your employee will own your shop from that day forward. It's one thing if the employee circumvents the safeguard, it's another thing, entirely, if the employer does.

from OSHA

The employer is responsible for safeguarding machines and should consider this need when purchasing machinery. Almost all new machinery is available with safeguards installed by the manufacturer, but used equipment may not be.

If machinery has no safeguards, you may be able to purchase safeguards from the original machine manufacturer or from an after-market manufacturer. You can also build and install the safeguards in-house. Safeguarding equipment should be designed and installed only by technically qualified professionals. If possible, the original equipment manufacturer should review the safeguard design to ensure that it will protect employees without interfering with the operation of the machine or creating additional hazards.

Regardless of the source of safeguards, the guards and devices used need to be compatible with a machine's operation and designed to ensure safe operator use. The type of operation, size, and shape of stock, method of feeding, physical layout of the work area, and production requirements all affect the selection of safeguards. Also, safeguards should be designed with the machine operator in mind as a guarding method that interferes with the operation of the machine may cause employees to override them. To ensure effective and safe operator use, guards and devices should suit the operation.

I hope it never happens in your shop but you cannot ever be sure. The one thing you can be sure of, though, is that you took every precaution to keep your employees out of harm's way by using or installing guards on the machines...


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Steve,
Tom is a very honest and straight forward type of guy and by no means an idiot. 

What Tom tried to accomplish was to make all of us aware of the hazard of kick backs. I think that Tom has done that job very well. We are discussing it.

Tom's only mistake was to use a piece of plywood for the demonstration. A piece of Styrofoam insulation would have been a better choice. As I've said earlier the Styrofoam makes a very dramatic demonstration. 

Please give Tom credit for trying to make all of us safe.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

rrich said:


> Steve,
> Tom is a very honest and straight forward type of guy and by no means an idiot.
> 
> What Tom tried to accomplish was to make all of us aware of the hazard of kick backs. I think that Tom has done that job very well. We are discussing it.
> ...


Rich,

You are right about that. He did it to show just how dangerous a real kickback can be. I feel he used that push block thinking it would protect him even better from what he knew was going to happen. It is readily apparent that even he didn't know how close a call the whole thing was going to be. He is by no means an idiot. He is very lucky that, even though he knew it was coming, he still was very close to drawing blood.

Paul


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## TexasLegend (Jun 8, 2013)

mobilepaul said:


> I may be wrong but doubt it very seriously. If the day comes that an employee loses a digit or more in your shop and it is documented that you, as an employer took the safety gear off of the equipment, your employee will own your shop from that day forward. It's one thing if the employee circumvents the safeguard, it's another thing, entirely, if the employer does.
> 
> I hope it never happens in your shop but you cannot ever be sure. The one thing you can be sure of, though, is that you took every precaution to keep your employees out of harm's way by using or installing guards on the machines...


I'm not the owner just an employee.


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## Carvel Loafer (Dec 31, 2011)

Well I think Tom called himself the idiot first, but mostly to make the point, it takes guts to do that for us and more guts to post it online. 

I have to admit that the video has put a greater respect in me, and that's coming from a guy who mopped up the blood of a co-worker loosing two fingers on a table saw. It was interesting to note that the kickback motion has an arc effect when it flies backward and by that effect it naturally pulled his hand and the block toward the blade. Goes to show you really can't say exactly how the kickback is going to behave.

I don't think this topic can be exhausted. For those who choose not to guard it is an ongoing reminder of the potential hazard instilling more caution, for those who are planning to guard (like me) it is good inspriation to do it right, and for those who do guard it is encouragement to continue.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

TexasLegend said:


> I'm not the owner just an employee.


I see, when you said "we" don't use any safety devices, they just get in the way and "we" have been in business for 30 years" I was not sure of your status in the company, but I meant the collective "you", not necessarily You.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm curious, I just purchased a set of board buddies for my TS. Has anyone ever used them and do they actually help keep the lumber against the fence? I've never known anyone that owned them but I have seem them demoed online.

Thanks for the time,

Paul


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

mobilepaul said:


> I'm curious, I just purchased a set of board buddies for my TS. Has anyone ever used them and do they actually help keep the lumber against the fence? I've never known anyone that owned them but I have seem them demoed online.
> 
> Thanks for the time,
> 
> Paul


I had a set. They turned out to be too much of a hassle to install and didn't want to modify the fence.

One of the magazines published a push stick plan. A handle made of laminated plywood. (Two 3/4 thick glued into a single piece.) The replaceable push block is a 6" piece of 2 x 4. The push fence is a piece of 1/4" plywood or melamine. 

I use the push stick for every cut within the Shaka zone. I'll have 4 or 5 of these push sticks laying about. I don't care if I cut into the 2 x 4 or push fence. When I finally have destroyed the 2x4 I'll just flip both the 2x4 and fence around and reattach to the handle.

These offer the advantage of down pressure, a push fence, it doesn't rock from side to side because of the width and you fingers are 4-5 inches away from the stock. It's almost like using a push pad or block that you don't care if it gets sliced up by the blade.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

rrich said:


> I had a set. They turned out to be too much of a hassle to install and didn't want to modify the fence.
> 
> One of the magazines published a push stick plan. A handle made of laminated plywood. (Two 3/4 thick glued into a single piece.) The replaceable push block is a 6" piece of 2 x 4. The push fence is a piece of 1/4" plywood or melamine.
> 
> ...


I was of the impression that you didn't have to mod the fence other than attach the bar to the top. Am I incorrect about that?

I've also been toying with the idea or making a fence like the askthewoodman guy's fence. That would give me a place to attach the board buddies right to the top of the fence, which is merely an 80/20 aluminum extrusion.

http://www.askwoodman.com/2012/09/24/diy-biesemeyer-fence/

and this one is cool too (same but different)

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqtTuVwYBfkzhY2x-va586VkJYmKZE6Jy


Rich, good idea about the push stick, have any pics? Didn't happen if you don't :icon_smile:

Thanks,

Paul


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have these*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Router-Tabl...814726773?pt=Routers_Bits&hash=item19cd128a75

I "had" them on a Biesemeyer fence on a 12" Powermatic saw. 
The issue is you have to work around them when ripping narrow stock and that's a PITA. They do work as designed, but they are just in the way. 

A splitter will keep the work registered against the fence at the rear of the blade and a magnetic feather board will apply pressure in front of the blade. I don't always use a feather board, but always use the splitter when possible. After NOT using one for years, I finally figured out why they help prevent rotational kickbacks. The work can't pull away from the fence behind the blade because the splitter is in the way...DUH. 

The first cut I made on that 5 HP Powermatic was a piece of knotty Pine, no guard, no splitter ....BLAM .... the piece virtually exploded off the blade and I dang near froze in fear. I learned 2 lessons. Watch out for knotty Pine and use the splitter/blade guard. :yes:


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Router-Tabl...814726773?pt=Routers_Bits&hash=item19cd128a75
> 
> I "had" them on a Biesemeyer fence on a 12" Powermatic saw.
> The issue is you have to work around them when ripping narrow stock and that's a PITA. They do work as designed, but they are just in the way.
> ...


yes, I have the shark guard on my powermatic. note to self, no knotty pine!


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Oh no, not another kick back thread :euro:

They all tend to end up the same way.... :gun_bandana:


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## igster (Oct 31, 2013)

Thinking about it a bit, I offer up the following: the kickback didn't actually pull the guy's hand towards the blade as it threw the piece back - since he was actively trying to push the piece down to keep it in contact with the table surface he could not contract the arm muscles fast enough to stop pushing, thus ended up continuing the push even when the piece got whipped up and back, thus bringing his fingers almost into the blade. 
It's akin to the old trick where someone offers you a dollar bill (or a 20,50, or whatever) if you can successfully grab it when he drops it between your fingers. Since you can't know when the bill is released it is almost impossible to pinch the bill before it leaves the area between your fingers - your fingers are all tensed up and then there is that split of an instant when the bill starts to drop...your brain has to send the "grab" signal to your fingers but it's too late by the time that signal gets there.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

igster said:


> Thinking about it a bit, I offer up the following: the kickback didn't actually pull the guy's hand towards the blade as it threw the piece back - since he was actively trying to push the piece down to keep it in contact with the table surface he could not contract the arm muscles fast enough to stop pushing, thus ended up continuing the push even when the piece got whipped up and back, thus bringing his fingers almost into the blade.
> It's akin to the old trick where someone offers you a dollar bill (or a 20,50, or whatever) if you can successfully grab it when he drops it between your fingers. Since you can't know when the bill is released it is almost impossible to pinch the bill before it leaves the area between your fingers - your fingers are all tensed up and then there is that split of an instant when the bill starts to drop...your brain has to send the "grab" signal to your fingers but it's too late by the time that signal gets there.


I agree with you. He kept pushing the block, and, even though he knew it was coming, he still could not react fast enough for how fast a kick back happens. Therefore, his muscles did what the brain told them to do, keep pushing... I'll tell you, I would never do that to demo something like that. Too risky!


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

mobilepaul said:


> Rich, good idea about the push stick, have any pics? Didn't happen if you don't :icon_smile:
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Paul


Here are a few pictures.


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

rrich said:


> Here are a few pictures.



Thanks, Rich for taking the time to post the pics, that's a very good idea. I'll have to build one of those!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

rrich said:


> Steve,
> Tom is a very honest and straight forward type of guy and by no means an idiot.
> 
> What Tom tried to accomplish was to make all of us aware of the hazard of kick backs. I think that Tom has done that job very well. We are discussing it.
> ...


Hay, I'm just agreeing with him. He came very close to loosing some fingers doing something stupid. He had his hand almost behind the blade deliberately generating a kickback. 

It's funny you should mention Styrofoam. Styrofoam is one of the most dangerous materials to cut on a table saw. The stuff will compress and in the blink of a eye without warning have a kickback. I've worked for companies that only the most experienced people were allowed to cut it. While there isn't the danger of being hit by it, the danger is having your hands sucked into the blade.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*thanks for the pix rrich*

That thing is ..... I can't say butt ugly, because there are some fine looking ones on some females, BUT it sure ain't purdy. :no: Clunky come to mind. Looks like the on site framer made it from the scrap pile. Good idea though. :yes:


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## jjrbus (Dec 6, 2009)

Carvel Loafer said:


> Well I think Tom called himself the idiot first, but mostly to make the point, it takes guts to do that for us and more guts to post it online.
> 
> .


 Most of the true idiots I know would never admit to doing something like that nor be man enough to post it to help other people!

Tom is they type of guy I would like for a friend! JIm


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