# Lathe shuttering



## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

I have a Jet Midi lathe, and I'm in the process of clearing material out from the inside of a piece of cherry, and anytime I take even just a moderately heavy cut it starts shuttering. I get this when using a cheap little 3 jaw chuck, my spire drive, and the TEKNATOOL SUPERNOVA 2 CHUCK. Can someone give me some input on h ow to make this not happen? I am a solid 6 inches out from the chuck in Z, but it happens with smaller pieces as well.

Your input is much appreciated!

Thanks!
- Jonathan


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

What do you mean by shuttering? Chatter? Try sharpening and take lighter cuts.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

This is as good a place as any to get the help you need, but your post is not easy to understand. 
I don't know what "shuttering" means either, but assuming you mean the tool is chattering on the wood, it will be helpful to know what kind of tool you're using to hollow out, how you're presenting it to the work, and how it's being sharpened, and how far it's hanging out over the tool rest.

Also relevant is the diameter of the workpiece and the lathe speed.

What is a "Z"?


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## Horatio (Apr 4, 2012)

I know when I get impatient and take too large of cuts and don't have my tools sharp enough, I bog down my old Rikon midi, perhaps that's the meaning of "shuttering".....like when you start to bog down and ease up and it ramps back up to speed and and you go on and do it again?

Right speed, right tool, right pressure on the cut. I still do it all the time (at least when I was turning regularly) Its one thing to know (or think you know) how to do it and then executing it. And I'm saying that as someone of very modest skill who makes ALL the mistakes in spades, doesn't pay enough attention to details, etc. 

What helps though, when I have trouble with something (if in fact I'm reading your post correctly - big assumption) I try to go back to basics, turn a simpler piece and try to repeat something I pulled off successfully previously. It takes alot of practice and I tend to get way ahead of myself. I have a rather large, half finished ash bowl that's hard as a rock and it got to the point where I felt like I was sticking my tool in to jam the machine immediately. 

Another thing that might help is keeping the tailstock up and tight as long as you can. It gets tough getting inside a bowl or vessel but that pressure helps hold everything in place (for me, at least)and may well be worth a little extra maneuvering. 

Granted, I haven't turned in a year and am still a few weeks out from getting back to it but frustrations are not easily forgotten.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

*vibrating*

wow you guys responded fast! chattering would be the most accurate translation... it's 3" X 3" cherry wood sticking out past the chuck jaws about 5.5 inches. When turning the OD features (outside diameter) it barely ever dose it. It's when turning the ID (inside diameter) the of the bowl, that it vibrates something terrible!

Also I've been using what I dang well know is not a roughing gauge... as a roughing gauge! Could that be why?


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

It sounds like it could be a lot of different problems.

By "Z" I assume you mean the depth as in the Z axis in a graph.

By the size ( 3X3X6) I assume it is spindle orientation meaning the graining is going the length of the lathe not perpendicular to the bed as most bowls are. If so you are cutting directly into end grain to try to hollow out the bowl.

You can use a "spindle roughing gouge" for the outside if you are using spindle orientation but you can use other tools as well. You can't use the spindle roughing gouge on the inside. 
So what tool are you using? If you don't know can you post a pic?

Another assumption is that you are using the 50mm jaws with your SN2 chuck. At 6" out you are really at the limit of those jaws. While they are great jaws they are typically for bowl orientation (wood grain perpendicular to the lathe) and usually under 4" deep even though the diameter may be 12" or more.

If my assumptions are correct then it sounds like you are making more of a box which requires an opposite interior cut compared to the normal bowl.


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## Gary Beasley (Jan 21, 2009)

When going really deep I've been mounting my jacobs chuck with a two inch forstner to remove excess stock inside. Then I find I can use my Sorby bedan, basically a square rod with an angled tip edge, to remove the rest down to near finished thickness. Round scrapers and sandpaper serve to finish it off.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

There are a million causes but one that happens frequently on the smaller Jet's and maybe this one is simply the handwheel can come loose. When it does it lets the bearings come loose and you get all kinds of chatter and vibration.
Tell us more about what tool and how you are using it and we might be able to help with that. 
If you don't have a shoulder for the tenon to ride on in the chuck you can get lots of vibration. If you just grip a round tenon as you turn the wood starts rocking in the chuck and can easily be thrown accross the room. If you leave the tenon shorter than the jaws are tall and have a good square shoulder on the top of the tenon to rest on the jaws you will reduce a lot of vibration. Also stop and tighten the chuck periodically. Wood compresses and the jaws can be loose.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

and yes... your interpretations of my use of the terms "Z axis" and "X axis" are correct. Sorry I have a background of setting up and operating an engine lathe and a small variety of CNC lathes, and I've just gotten into the habit of referring to wood lathe stuff in the same terms. What is the more commonly used wood lathe community equivalent terminology? My version is not wrong, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best option!


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

A picture speaks 1000 words...

There are 3 of them below

http://s36.photobucket.com/user/jonohoff/library/Lathe?sort=3&page=1


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

I was fairly sure I was correct about the X, Y, Z. In turning the X and Y are simply the diameter since things are round; the Z is typically length, height, tall, etc.

The pics do help a lot. It looks like you are using the 100mm jaws. You may have to go down to your 50mm or 70mm in order to have a flat area for the top of the jaws to seat against. Here is a link to some very good videos by Stuart Batty. He has three, about 12 -15 minutes each, on chuck jaws, recesses, and tenons. Tenons are also called Spigots in woodturning.
https://vimeo.com/woodturning/videos/sort:alphabetical/format:thumbnail

He also has some on grain direction while cutting. In particular there is one on end grain. You should be cutting from the center to the outside edge on an end grain item. The opposite is true for most bowl mount (also called Blank or Face Plate mount.)

Your goblet is looking good. I do not know how you started but most turn the full length to a cylinder. Then turn the hollow, then the outside of the cup/bowl and finish to completion. Use a cone center lightly in the cup section and turn the stem and base.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Yes, the pictures are enormously helpful.

The first thing that struck me is that I'd try to get all the heavy lifting with the hollowing done before I slimmed the outer profile down for the "stem" of the goblet shape. Having the stem thinned down like that is automatically going to introduce a tendency for the workpiece to "whip".

You're hollowing into end grain too, which is fine, but there are strategies (and tools) for that which work well and others which can be problematic, so a description, or better yet a photo, of the tools you're using would really help.

All that said, you're working a ways away from the chuck, so there's inherent instability and a lot of leverage at work when the tool contacts the workpiece that far out. So you're going to need very sharp tools and a delicate touch no matter what.

If you get chance, post a photo of the tool that's giving you the most trouble.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

Visit the same page... http://s36.photobucket.com/user/jonohoff/library/Lathe?sort=3&page=1

and you will find 2 new photos. And yes... those 2 tools, plus a 1 inch forestner bit are what i used to turn the entire goblet in the 2nd new photo. would i notice a drastic improvement in every aspect of my turning projects if I just coughed up the money for some proper tools? 

I used the narrower of the 2 for about 75% of the goblet, and I was going back over it with the red handled one for a finish pass, but really both of them were giving me that vibration.

With regards to the narrow neck and digging out the goblet's volume... I did turn the inside out completely before making that narrow neck. I may be kind of a noob, but I do know better than to neck that first!


I know it's a fairly simple peace and the finish isn't 100% perfect, but for my first project on my new Nova chuck, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out... no pun intended lol!


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

The two tools in the new photos look to be regular wood chisels converted for turning purposes. 

Which is fine so far as it goes. Most turners re-purpose other tools regularly, even screwdrivers and allen keys, but wood chisels are not usually as heavy in cross section as turning tools best suited to excavating timber from deepish holes, and they will tend to flex more, especially when they're hanging over the tool rest a fair bit as is often the case when hollowing. 

They also have handles which are much shorter, which makes controlling the tool more difficult. When a tool is cutting some distance from the tool rest, as when hollowing, having enough handle to control the tool is vital, and the further the tool is hanging over the rest the more handle you need. 
Neither of those modified chisels are anywhere close to having enough handle for hollowing.

There's a lot of variables in a situation like this. If you have a combination of relatively light tools hanging over the tool rest a good bit, and scraping tools cutting into end grain at that, along with a workpiece that's held some considerable distance from where the cutting action is, just those two variables alone (which we have discussed) increase the likelihood of chatter and other instability problems.

Add in other variables which we have not even begun to discuss:- the possibility that the tool cutting edge geometry is not optimal or sufficiently sharp, and/or the presentation of the tool to the work is not optimally positioned, and/or the rotational speed of the lathe is not optimal for the type of cut and/or the type of timber being used and you can see where things can get interesting (and complicated) in a big hurry.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Well you have multiple issues. On as mentioned is the tools are too thin. They will chatter when extended over the tool rest and the short handles aggravate the situation. you may be able to reduce this somewhat by angling the tool rest so it sticks in the goblet. 
You didn't say how you were using them. On an endgrain piece like the goblet you should be hollowing from the center out. Since you drilled out most of the waste you could simply make shallow cuts right to left to get the goblet walls about correct and then make a final pass by pulling the tool up the wall from the bottom of the bowl. 
You have the goblet blank held from the outside. This makes it very easy to get a lot of chatter especially when your turning 4" or more out from the chuck. 
I start goblets between centers. Roughly shape the bowl leaving the stem very thick. Then I cut a tenon on the bottom that is shorter than my jaws are tall and it will have a square shoulder to sit on the top of the jaws. 
Since you have a metal lathe background your probably familiar enough with bearings that you know how to see and solve that problem and in this case that probably isn't your problem anyway.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

Thanks so much for all the input... let me touch on a few of the issues brought up:

Yes, what 9thousandfeet said about the tool conversion is correct. I did those conversions 10 years ago when I was a 17 year old kid who didn't have money for proper tooling. That being said, I am now at least grown up to buy appropriate tools for the hobby. Given the size of my lathe and the approximate sizes of parts I will be turning, I would more than welcome you folks recommendations on tools I should purchase. Like if someone has a similar lathe to mine and does similar projects, I would love to get your input on what tools I should buy. 

Yes it is cutting into end grain, and I was basically using my tool rest 90 degrees from the part and going willy nilly from the center of the bowl, to the outermost diameter in there. The statements about over-hang, handle size, and cutting tip geometry all apply to myself no doubt. I just tinkered with the cutting geometry on my bench grinder until it took a cut, any cut, and I called it good enough lol.

FYI the geometry of my jaws are shown in 2 photos I just added to the album.

Another issue I wanted to ask about, is pictured in 2 new photos in the album... I don't know how well you can see it, but I have quite a lot of tool marks running the perimeter of the goblet, that I am having a lot of trouble getting rid of with sandpaper. Are these caused by the chatter as well?


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Packard has some good heavy duty scrapers that are a solid 1/2" thick.
For the size of work represented by your goblet, scrapers 3/8" thick may well suit you just fine, and they're quite a bit less expensive.

For myself, I much prefer to use a gouge than a scraper whenever possible, and gouges are a big topic all by themselves. A 1/2" spindle gouge is a very versatile tool good for all kinds of stunts, including working the outside of a form like your goblet as well as being an efficient hollowing tool.

If you're going to turn down a lot of square stock in the spindle orientation, ie like your goblet, a 1" roughing gouge makes that much easier and it can also be used to give a clean cut on flowing curves so long as the curve radius is not too small.

A parting tool is nice, but you can make one out of an old sawzall blade if you happen to have one laying around. 

A skew is a wonderful tool for spindle work, and can both hog off a lot of wood in a hurry and take the merest whisper of a cut and leave a very smooth surface. They're probably the biggest learning curve of all, but _totally_ worth the effort. If you can get to where you don't get catches with a skew, you can probably turn with anything catch-free. A 3/4" is a good general purpose size there.

The lines on the goblet that you're having problems sanding out are simply poorly cut wood. This can be due to chatter somewhat, but in this case they look to me more like a not-so-sharp tool being presented to the wood in a less than optimal fashion, so you've got a lot of "tramlines" there, which are really deep scratches.

With the right tools, sharpened the right way, and presented to the wood in the optimal fashion, those will just not happen. A cutting tool (a gouge or a skew, say) will almost always give a better finish than a scraper in spindle work.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

Also, someone talk to me more about this advantage of gripping an internal feature of your part, as opposed to an outside grip. I never in my wildest dreams would have pictured an internal grip to be less chatter prone... never in my life!


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

INternal gripping only works if you have a lot of mass around the jaws. I've seen a lot of beginners lose bowls because they used internal gripping (I'll call it a rebate) and didn't have enough mass around the jaws. You are applying a lot of pressure when you expand the jaws. I only use that feature for platters or large bowls where I have a lot of wood outside the jaws. 99% of the time I grip a tenon with the jaws. 
Part of what you are experiencing on the goblet is chatter especially if the lines you are talking about are spiral in nature. That's why I leave the goblet stem very thick until I've completely hollowed the inside and turned most of the outside of the goblet. Then I start working on thinning out the stem. Gripping a tenon that doesn't have a shoulder will only aggravate the problem as well as using scraping tools instead of cutting tools.


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

As far a tool I would suggest at least a 1/2" spindle gouge. A spindle roughing gouge (1") would also be nice. Other tools may be a parting tool and heavier scrapers. I have a couple of 1/2" square scrapers I made for to use inside of boxes (or goblets). Typically I use the spindle gouge to hollow but need a scraper to clean up the bottom.

I agree with other comments on the shortness of the tools also. If you go to same link I posted earlier Stuart Batty has 2-3 videos only on overhang.

Some of the "lines" on the turnings look to be the result of "poking" at the wood to me. Although not brought up a lot in discussions, stance is one of the most important aspects of turning IMHO. And yes, Stuart has three on stance also. You want to be using your body not your arms for most cuts. By moving the tool with your body you can get smooth cuts. 
You can also get those lines from dull tools, from feeding the tool to fast, flex in the tool, flex in the stock, etc., etc.

John Lucas here has some excellent videos that you should watch. He may not discuss it as an individual topic but if the shot is made far enough away I believe you will see him making the cut by moving his body whenever possible. BTW it is john60lucas on youtube.

As far a chuck jaws, I normally use a recess if the wood allows. Nova suggest 1" around a recess. I don't know that either chucking method increases/decreases chatter.
It makes a difference if you are using store bought wood but I never have so it doesn't matter if I waste an inch or two. For your goblet I would either use the Pin jaws with the jaws inserted an inch deep into the wood or the 35mm spigot jaws with the tenon inserted and inch deep into the jaws. Either way would be a good sturdy hold, since it is endgrain I would probably go with the spigot jaws.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

*Tool I just purchased*

So I purchased this tool
http://tinyurl.com/ost36wk
From Woodcraft Supply… a local retailer, and so far I'm pretty happy with it.

Now I want you all's input on buying a cutter insert for it that will give me greater reach when hollowing out bowls. The following items on Amazon are what I have in mind thus far.
http://tinyurl.com/mnmn587
http://tinyurl.com/lougebq
http://tinyurl.com/m2beozj
http://tinyurl.com/leka4ct

I know the last one is not a cutter insert, but I would still like your input on it, for hollowing out pieces that are simply too narrow for the full size tool to properly get into.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

jonohoff said:


> I have a Jet Midi lathe, and I'm in the process of clearing material out from the inside of a piece of cherry, and anytime I take even just a moderately heavy cut it starts shuttering. I get this when using a cheap little 3 jaw chuck, my spire drive, and the TEKNATOOL SUPERNOVA 2 CHUCK. Can someone give me some input on h ow to make this not happen? I am a solid 6 inches out from the chuck in Z, but it happens with smaller pieces as well.
> 
> Your input is much appreciated!
> 
> ...


I figured that you meant chattering or "shuddering" although I would normally think of shuddering as the machine vibrating at a low frequency like something is loose or out of balance. Chattering on the other hand is vibration between the tool and wood which results in a scalloped or textured appearance. There are numerous causes and I will list them in the order that I think is most likely in your case if you are a fairly new turner:


By far, the most probable cause is trying to cut wit a dull tool. A properly sharpened tool will be razor sharp ... this is no exaggeration. It is also imperative to frequently stop and resharpen the tool. How often to sharpen is something that you will need to learn through experience, but it can vary from a few seconds up to several minutes.
Next on the list for a newbie turner is improper tool control. Here are some examples ...
On the interior of a hollowform for safest tool control, the tool should be contacting the wood slightly above centerline and the tool should be angled so that the back end of the handle is higher than the cutting edge.
If you are using a carbide scraper on the inside surface of a bowl, then follow the same guideline as above for a hollow form.
If using a bowl gouge on the inside of a bowl, the cut on centerline and keep the tool handle level until you are well past the newbie stage in your confidence and skill level. There is a lot more ... far too much for a forum post on the procedure for working the inside of a bowl in stages.
If not holding the tool correctly or insuring that the bevel is riding the cut, all of these things can lead to chatter.

BTW, never never never ever use a three jaw chuck unless you like living dangerously.
Until you can take clean light cuts that produce ribbons (dust and chips don't count), forget about taking heavy cuts, even if they are only moderately heavy. We all need to learn to walk before we can run.
It may not be anything that you are doing incorrectly -- sometimes wood has built-in stresses and warps like crazy as material is being removed. When this happens, it is imperative to take very light cuts where you are alternating between cutting air and wood. If you push the tool into the wood to force a cut it will only serve to exacerbate a bad situation.
Green wood cuts like butter and is unlikely to chatter, but it is very likely to warp while turning it so this is something to be aware of. If you don't pay attention, this warping can be a big factor in getting a whopper of a catch and launching the bowl into a low-altitude earth orbit.
Dry hard wood that is thin just loves to chatter and sing. There are a number of advanced skill techniques for dealing with this problem.
There is always a small possibility that there is something wrong with the lathe. My apologies if you are not a newbie turner, but I am just making my best guesses.


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## jonohoff (Apr 22, 2015)

*To Bill Boehme*

You are correct that I am a nube. I have had my Jet midi lathe for near 10 years, but up until this past month, I have been working with a botched 3 jaw machining chuck and modified hand chisels. I just purchased my 4 jaw Nova 2 chuck, and the Robert Sorby RSTM-HCT123 TurnMaster tool.

This new tool has eliminated 90% of the chatter I have been dealing with, but I strongly feel I need to purchase one of the cutters in the links in my last reply. If you or someone could advise me on which of them would be best, I would greatly appreciate the input! I really feel this need due to my strained reach when hollowing out a bowl. The beefy diameter of the tool is just drastically in the way of my cuts being comfortable to take, of you see what I mean. 

On a positive note, the tool came with Torq screws to hold the cutter insert in, and 99% of the time I am a serious fan of Torq screws, but the ones included with the Sorby TurnMaster are crap! The Torq sockets are just shallow as hell... like I was seriously able to get less than 5 foot pounds of torque on the darn thing! Fortunately it is standard 4mm x .70 thread and I was able to replace it easily with a high quality Allen head screw that is just awesome! I was worried it was going to be some propriety fastener that you could ONLY REPLACE WITH A $20 SCREW BOUGHT DIRECTLY FROM THEM!! 


That is all the ranting I have for now lol


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

jonohoff said:


> I really feel this need due to my strained reach when hollowing out a bowl. The beefy diameter of the tool is just drastically in the way of my cuts being comfortable to take, of you see what I mean.


I'm having a hard time seeing what you mean there.
If you're turning bowls, I don't quite see why the diameter of the tool shaft would restrict your movements or access to the bowl interior.
And further than that, I don't see how purchasing any of the items (the accessories to your new Sorby tool) you link to in your earlier comment will help solve a problem of "strained reach".

I guess I just can't picture what's going on. What are you having to "strain" to reach? 
You say the "beefy" diameter of the tool is "in the way". In the way of what?
I'm at a loss.


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

If I went with any of the cutters you listed it would be the French curve. 
The last item you linked to is not a cutter, it is a holder to use at the grinder. I simply take my cutters and hone the top surface on a diamond plate.

The tool itself appears to push you about 3 inches over the rest no matter what you are doing. Mine is the Sorby multi-tip which places the cutter only about an inch over the rest, it does not use carbide bits.

Here is a link to some youtube videos on the Turnmaster which may give you more insight it you haven't watched them already.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robert+sorby+turnmaster


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

jonohoff said:


> You are correct that I am a nube. I have had my Jet midi lathe for near 10 years, but up until this past month, I have been working with a botched 3 jaw machining chuck and modified hand chisels. I just purchased my 4 jaw Nova 2 chuck, and the Robert Sorby RSTM-HCT123 TurnMaster tool.
> 
> This new tool has eliminated 90% of the chatter I have been dealing with, but I strongly feel I need to purchase one of the cutters in the links in my last reply. If you or someone could advise me on which of them would be best, I would greatly appreciate the input! I really feel this need due to my strained reach when hollowing out a bowl. The beefy diameter of the tool is just drastically in the way of my cuts being comfortable to take, of you see what I mean.
> 
> ...


First, let me apologize for somehow not seeing the last ten posts before I made my post. I'm not sure if it was a stale page in the browser or a mental lapse on my part. A lot of what I posted was really old news by the time that I got it posted.

Your experience on an engine lathe give you a leg up on most beginning woodturners, but any other similarity ends when it comes to the material being turned, the tools used, and how they are used. Woodturning is often called a dance at the lathe ... and, that is exactly how it appears. As previously mentioned, you turn with your body and not your hands and arms.

I would not have recommended the Sorby TurnMaster tool at this stage of your turning journey. It definitely is a well made tool, but not really the solution that you need for what you are wanting to do. Some tools have already been mentioned and I concur with those suggestions. My personal choice would be a ⅜" spindle gouge. I also like a ¼" spindle gouge, but they are more prone to vibrating and require a bit more finesse. A half-inch bowl gouge is also a good tool to have. As mentioned a skew chisel is always good to have. They can be use to open paint cans and scrape gum off your shoes ... I've heard that they can also be used for woodturning (this is an inside joke among woodturners because the skew chisel is the most difficult to learn to use and the most unforgiving of mistakes ... when you master the skew, you have achieved a true milestone). Another essential tool is the spindle roughing gouge ... it has one purpose in life ... taking rectangular spindle stock down to round spindle stock. My final recommendation is a parting tool.

The biggest favor that you can do for yourself is to get with other turners who can save you a lot of grief by giving you some hands-on mentoring to get you up to speed. Here is a link where you can search to see if there is a woodturning club anywhere close to you: *http://www.woodturner.org/search/custom.asp?id=1509*

If you can't find a local chapter of the AAW within reasonable driving distance, I would recommend checking out DVDs and videos by professional woodturners.

BTW, five foot-pounds is really a lot of torque for a screw. You can crack a carbide cutter by over-torquing the screw. Some carbide tipped tools do have proprietary tapered screws that are way over priced. Consider yourself lucky if you were able to replace the Torx® screw with a socket head cap screw.


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