# End to Face Joint



## zyglrox (Dec 24, 2017)

At some point I'm going to making some speaker stands out of red oak. The stands will have bases and tops composed of a single 1x8 board each, with 4 1x3's making the supports for the tops, one going parallel with each side - looking straight down at them they're arranged like a square shape that's been opened up by cutting the corners off.

Structurally is this design suitable for holding up to 10lbs? I assume with oak it would be perfectly stable. Were only talking 4 feet tall at the most. 

My issue here is... how do I join the ends of the 1x3's to the faces of the 1x8's? End grain isn't going to glue well to a face. And screws alone are going to be too weak going into those ends, not to mention prone to splitting. I know this much.

I don't have a lot of tools to work with here. I have no table saw or router. If there's a tool I can get to pull this off that I will use lots, I'll strongly consider. As far as tools go for making joints... I seem to have neglected buying any. Don't even have a kreg jig :/

I was thinking dowels would be the way to go. I'll buy a doweling jig to accommodate that, as I can see myself using it frequently. But how feasible is it to precisely tap a wide board closer to the middle with one of those? Is it something I can pull off with just a power drill or do I need a press? What about those hand crank ones? How hard are they really to line up by simply measuring, marking, and drilling with brad points? Or maybe I could make a jig to better accomplish this with what I have?

The only other thing I can think of isn't elegant and I might scrap a board or two doing it, but I could cut out holes in the bases and tops for the supports to slip right through. I could use a jigsaw and a drum sander drill bit to accomplish that. Getting it all clean and snug might be tough, though. Not to mention overly tedious for what I'm doing.

I was planning to make them "floating" with 1x2's centered on the edges for trim around them and feeties hidden underneath anyway, so there will be room for the boards to poke through on the bottoms. I could then attach small pieces of wood to the undersides right adjacent to the 1x3's poking though and then attach those to the 1x3's. Screws and glue. This would be sturdy I'm sure. And it can all be hidden easily. Just not the most practical route.

Any ideas here? I'm open to just about anything that makes them look like they're butted flush against the faces. I'm gonna stain and lacquer so it needs to look good. Maybe there's an adhesive I can use that might work? What even is the proper way to butt end grain to the center of a face?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Very difficult to understand what you are doing based on the verbiage.

If you would provide a sketch it would be great help.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's difficult to picture what you are building but it sounds like grossly over kill for 10lbs or even 100lbs. A frame made out of 3/4"x2" would be more than sufficient. 

I don't personally like the kreg tool. It was intended to be used for cabinet faceframes and their marketing has people doing a lot of different things the tool shouldn't be used for. In this instance though you are making faceframes which it would work well for. Using a doweling jig is also a good option. Using dowels is a time honored method of making butt joints like that. The doweling jig is very simple and easy to use. You just lay the parts together like you want them and mark a line across the joint where you want the dowel and the jig takes care of the rest. As long as you have it clamped well to the wood it will drill the holes just where you want. Most doweling jigs come with the brad point drill bits and a depth gauge you can clamp to the bit so all the holes are drilled to the same depth. 

If you choose to use dowels you might buy some spiral cut dowels. When you put glue in the dowel hole and insert the dowel it's like a piston. The glue prevents any air from escaping and can bust the wood from the pressure. The spiral cut dowel has a groove running around it enabling the air to escape. I have a table saw so I take a regular dowel rod and set my saw on a 45 degree angle and set the height of the blade to where it barely comes through the top. I run the dowel through the saw putting a v-groove down the middle of the dowel for this purpose.


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## zyglrox (Dec 24, 2017)

Alright, I did a terrible sketch. Hopefully it clarifies. The first one is a side view while the second one is top-down.










Would ~1x2's really suffice? To me that just seems a bit slim. But if that works it saves me a little money.


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## Jim Frye (Aug 24, 2016)

Dowels or biscuits would work. Personally, I'd do mortise and tennon joinery for more strength, however, I don't think the design has the lateral strength even with only 10 poundson top.


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## zyglrox (Dec 24, 2017)

Mortise and tennon would be nice, if I only had the tools!

And yes, lateral strength is a concern of mine, too. Glad to see it confirmed. My thinking was by lining up the boards in that way, there wouldn't be as much lateral strain in any direction. But maybe 1x3's just aren't enough for this design. 10 lbs is maybe double what they will actually bear, but I want them to be sturdy and be able to hold more than they ever need to. These speakers aren't cheap.

Would it be better to bring them together and join all of the sides in a square beam? Maybe with smaller boards where the big ones are now just for stability? Or maybe utilize a small beam from 1x2's inside the 4 1x3 outer supports? I could always put something heavy inside of the middle support to add stability and discourage any wobble.

I dunno. Brainstorming. I'm trying to keep the look simple.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I see no problem with lateral strength. All of the load is compression. Just what loads would put a strain laterally?

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

zyglrox said:


> Alright, I did a terrible sketch. Hopefully it clarifies. The first one is a side view while the second one is top-down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was visualizing a different frame. Still, just to hold 10lb a 1x2 frame would work as long as the joints were done well. The base which the underside doesn't show you might put dowels in it and a single screw in each leg. The use of the kreg tool wouldn't be very good in this application. You would be able to see the back sides of the legs where mortised for screws.


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## zyglrox (Dec 24, 2017)

GeorgeC said:


> I see no problem with lateral strength. All of the load is compression. Just what loads would put a strain laterally?
> 
> George


I've never got it either, but in my experience with many a cheap stand it can be an issue. Over time they do start to tilt and wobble when bumped.... ....if they don't completely topple. May just be inferior jointing. Couldn't tell you. I think maybe just the slightest imbalance in weight distribution might get something so tall and narrow tilting after a while if everything is not completely secure.

Good tips Steve. I like those ideas.


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