# Pre-raise the grain but don't sand?



## fonz (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi all!

I'm a novice working on a bookshelf made of poplar and I'm getting ready to finish it. I have been searching far and wide for the best finishing technique for this notoriously blotchy wood. At this point, I'd like to stain it (not paint it).

I came across this excellent webpage where the author conducted an experiment on the results of various finishes and finishing techniques on different woods. You can visit it here.

If you browse the section titled "Stain Uniformity", you can see that across the board (no pun intended), they achieved excellent gel stain uptake on poplar by sanding to 320 grit and then dipping in water and letting dry for 12 hours to raise the grain. There doesn't seem to be any indications that the raised grain was sanded prior to applying the gel stain.

So, long story short, is this a common procedure? I've heard of preraising the grain and then sanding it, in anticipation of a water-based finish. But, the process described above is without sanding. Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

fonz said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I'm a novice working on a bookshelf made of poplar and I'm getting ready to finish it. I have been searching far and wide for the best finishing technique for this notoriously blotchy wood. At this point, I'd like to stain it (not paint it).
> 
> ...


Well i went to his site and he is not in our business at all? which makes sense, though you can stain over raised grain even when wood is still wet, it's rarely done. your initial conception and understanding is correct. 

Something most do not take into considerartion is that when sanding dried raised grain it to sand it by hand at a slight biased stroke not perfecty with the grain, if you do it just ends up pushing the majority of the wood right back down again without really cutting it off. 

I have been finishing poplar since 1964 so i'm used to all of its shortcomings and problematic areas of concern. A uniform coat of hyde glue sizing or white pva adhesive thinned out to 5-10% by volume and lightly sanded is all that is necessary for dyed woods. for pigmented stains it can be as little as 2.5% depnding on how dark you want the stain. the only problem i have with poplar is the green wood. therefore i first hit it with pottasium permanganate and then hypo solution to bleach it first before any color work. but being a newbee, i would reccomend you skip this process. Instead, make up a background lacquer color and after sanding it smooth with 320 or 400 apply the pigmented color in lacquer thinly to the wood till both the green and white is evened out ok/ this is often reffered to as tiniting or toning the wood and donot put it on so heavy that it looks painted, the idea is to get rid of the obvious color variations with out doing so, practice on scraps. then apply a good pigment base stain over the top of this and it will bring out the pores and most of the color, seal with clear lacquer and repeat if more darkness is desired, with this method you can also copy any other wood no matter what natural color iti is ok? see pics, poplar to east indian rosewood below following what i have said here.


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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

Great info Chemmy! I have been self taught in most of my finish knowledge, so I don't think I am an expert. I stumbled on to similar procedures. I started making a wash of lacquer thinner and universal color tint to darken sap wood areas of boards to the heartwood color in cherry and walnut. Eventually, I even colored lacquer to granite colors to match wood trim to granite formica that had been applied to walls as paneling. I have read about glue sizing, but have not tried that as a pre-stain. I have not been satisfied with store bought pre-stain. 

Fonz, hang around this site and you will learn a LOT!


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

fonz said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I'm a novice working on a bookshelf made of poplar and I'm getting ready to finish it. I have been searching far and wide for the best finishing technique for this notoriously blotchy wood. At this point, I'd like to stain it (not paint it).
> 
> ...


go here and get this blotch control. It will make the poplar stain real good if not it will be so blotchey that i know you will not like it. I use this blotch control by charles neil . Go here and watch the video on blotch and see how some poplar looks with out control and with. I use it all the time on all my wood's. here is the link http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=InTheWorkshop#p/u/36/IfCYMdrP8rM


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

del schisler said:


> go here and get this blotch control. It will make the poplar stain real good if not it will be so blotchey that i know you will not like it. I use this blotch control by charles neil . Go here and watch the video on blotch and see how some poplar looks with out control and with. I use it all the time on all my wood's. here is the link http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=InTheWorkshop#p/u/36/IfCYMdrP8rM


Del Schisler is a hack, He's using a Pva glue rthinned out for his conditioner. yes it has other things also but that is the main resin/solid. you can make it yourself just expieriment with white glue and water, save a ton of money!!


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> Well i went to his site and he is not in our business at all? which makes sense, though you can stain over raised grain even when wood is still wet, it's rarely done. your initial conception and understanding is correct.
> 
> Something most do not take into considerartion is that when sanding dried raised grain it to sand it by hand at a slight biased stroke not perfecty with the grain, if you do it just ends up pushing the majority of the wood right back down again without really cutting it off.
> 
> I have been finishing poplar since 1964 so i'm used to all of its shortcomings and problematic areas of concern. A uniform coat of hyde glue sizing or white pva adhesive thinned out to 5-10% by volume and lightly sanded is all that is necessary for dyed woods. for pigmented stains it can be as little as 2.5% depnding on how dark you want the stain. the only problem i have with poplar is the green wood. therefore i first hit it with pottasium permanganate and then hypo solution to bleach it first before any color work. but being a newbee, i would reccomend you skip this process. Instead, make up a background lacquer color and after sanding it smooth with 320 or 400 apply the pigmented color in lacquer thinly to the wood till both the green and white is evened out ok/ this is often reffered to as tiniting or toning the wood and donot put it on so heavy that it looks painted, the idea is to get rid of the obvious color variations with out doing so, practice on scraps. then apply a good pigment base stain over the top of this and it will bring out the pores and most of the color, seal with clear lacquer and repeat if more darkness is desired, with this method you can also copy any other wood no matter what natural color iti is ok? see pics, poplar to east indian rosewood below following what i have said here.


How did you get the gorgeous luster on those peices? Is that a film topcoat of some sort?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> How did you get the gorgeous luster on those peices? Is that a film topcoat of some sort?


That is Sherwin williams spray lacquer, satin/ 40 degree sheen [satin] several coats of build, sanded in between each coat with 320 no-fil. dont remeber the number or product name exactly, this was in 99.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> That is Sherwin williams spray lacquer, satin/ 40 degree sheen [satin] several coats of build, sanded in between each coat with 320 no-fil. dont remeber the number or product name exactly, this was in 99.


ah okay...gorgeous work:thumbsup:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

MNsawyergp said:


> Great info Chemmy! I have been self taught in most of my finish knowledge, so I don't think I am an expert. I stumbled on to similar procedures. I started making a wash of lacquer thinner and universal color tint to darken sap wood areas of boards to the heartwood color in cherry and walnut. Eventually, I even colored lacquer to granite colors to match wood trim to granite formica that had been applied to walls as paneling. I have read about glue sizing, but have not tried that as a pre-stain. I have not been satisfied with store bought pre-stain.
> 
> Fonz, hang around this site and you will learn a LOT!


Let me see if i can find my formula for this , not working on glues yet still colors.

The use of hide glue sizes in the finishing of quality furniture surfaces is not commonly known by the public at large. In this process a dilute warm hide glue solution at approximately 1/4 pound of glue per quart of distilled water is applied to the wood surface and let dry. The compression grain is raised and the glue fills the porous exposed wood structure. On sanding, a glass-like surface is obtained, which is stable against moisture changes and which takes a lasting final stain or finish.

if you need more info just let me know ok?


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> Let me see if i can find my formula for this , not working on glues yet still colors.
> 
> The use of hide glue sizes in the finishing of quality furniture surfaces is not commonly known by the public at large. In this process a dilute warm hide glue solution at approximately 1/4 pound of glue per quart of distilled water is applied to the wood surface and let dry. The compression grain is raised and the glue fills the porous exposed wood structure. On sanding, a glass-like surface is obtained, which is stable against moisture changes and which takes a lasting final stain or finish.
> 
> if you need more info just let me know ok?


hmmmmm...interesting...i never kew that...looks like more experimenting for me.....does this apply to any wood? Just brush or wipe the mixture on evenly and allow to dry? I don;t need such large amount so i can cut the ratios a bit.....does any good white glue work?....how much sanding should take place before the glue is applied?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

MNsawyergp said:


> Great info Chemmy! I have been self taught in most of my finish knowledge, so I don't think I am an expert. I stumbled on to similar procedures. I started making a wash of lacquer thinner and universal color tint to darken sap wood areas of boards to the heartwood color in cherry and walnut. Eventually, I even colored lacquer to granite colors to match wood trim to granite formica that had been applied to walls as paneling. I have read about glue sizing, but have not tried that as a pre-stain. I have not been satisfied with store bought pre-stain.
> 
> Fonz, hang around this site and you will learn a LOT!


Nice to know your doing such things MN, keep on keeping on ok?

As to the glue formula, it can be thinned more or bulked depending on what your trying to acheive ok? play around with different woods and colors [dyes/pigment stains] till you get comfortable with what works best for what porcesses you desire to use ok?

Same with you Tom ok?:yes:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> hmmmmm...interesting...i never kew that...looks like more experimenting for me.....does this apply to any wood? Just brush or wipe the mixture on evenly and allow to dry? I don;t need such large amount so i can cut the ratios a bit.....does any good white glue work?....how much sanding should take place before the glue is applied?


The ratios for any wood will have to be workes out tom, more porous heavier, less porous less etc... You can rag or brush and wipe of evenly yes. :yes:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> The ratios for any wood will have to be workes out tom, more porous heavier, less porous less etc... You can rag or brush and wipe of evenly yes. :yes:


Thanks chemmy and the glue itself is just basic white glue?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> Thanks chemmy and the glue itself is just basic white glue?


YES!! "white" [emulsion] PVA type elmers / franklin, school glue, etc...

Donot use the yellow glues they will give you a yellow look lol, try 5 parts glue to 95 parts water as a starting point and go from there ok? 

Since they vary in polymer weight and density, make sure once you have a good formula to continue with the same braand or you will have to reformulate ok? Pesonally i used the cheap school glue.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> YES!! "white" [emulsion] PVA type elmers / franklin, school glue, etc...
> 
> Donot use the yellow glues they will give you a yellow look lol, try 5 parts glue to 95 parts water as a starting point and go from there ok?
> 
> Since they vary in polymer weight and density, make sure once you have a good formula to continue with the same braand or you will have to reformulate ok? Pesonally i used the cheap school glue.


awesome.....thank you sir....appreciated as always:thumbsup:


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

chemmy said:


> YES!! "white" [emulsion] PVA type elmers / franklin, school glue, etc...
> 
> Donot use the yellow glues they will give you a yellow look lol, try 5 parts glue to 95 parts water as a starting point and go from there ok?
> 
> Since they vary in polymer weight and density, make sure once you have a good formula to continue with the same braand or you will have to reformulate ok? Pesonally i used the cheap school glue.


 
Del Schisler is a hack, I guess this is what you mean ??
Too often "hack" simply means: "Not the way _I_ would do it." Their are other way's also . I thought the fellow was ready to stain and not experment ? I was only trying to help . I been doing wood working for around 50 yrs and don't have time to mess around. I know their are lot's of dye's out their. I have used walnut hull's in the fall and made walnut stain. Now that is stain doesn't cost . good luck on your project.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> Del Schisler is a hack, He's using a Pva glue rthinned out for his conditioner. yes it has other things also but that is the main resin/solid. you can make it yourself just expieriment with white glue and water, save a ton of money!!


Is this how you refer to someone that differs from your way?










 







.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

del schisler said:


> Del Schisler is a hack, I guess this is what you mean ??
> Too often "hack" simply means: "Not the way _I_ would do it." Their are other way's also . I thought the fellow was ready to stain and not experment ? I was only trying to help . I been doing wood working for around 50 yrs and don't have time to mess around. I know their are lot's of dye's out their. I have used walnut hull's in the fall and made walnut stain. Now that is stain doesn't cost . good luck on your project.


WOW!!!! my most sincere apologies Del, in no way did i mean you, i was talking of the man in the video when i went to watch it. he makes it sound like its some new science that took him years to come up with. that was my objection. and why i have written what i have ok?

Though "hack" may offend someone, i don't know a better word to describe someones materials thar are nothing new to be touted as some new incredible chemistry. Snake oil salesman? nope, it works so it's not snake oil, whatever, i just don't like people who make something old sound like something new and try to make the listner/viewer respond as if he were more than he is as a chemist.

It was my trade, and yes, it bothers me.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Is this how you refer to someone that differs from your way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'man thank you for pointing this out, i would have never went back and looked at dels post, my apologies.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> awesome.....thank you sir....appreciated as always:thumbsup:


Just curious if the glue coat in any way affects the application of stains, oil mixtures, poly ,etc.

Also I noticed you used the term "warm" above a couple times. Should the glue/water mix be a little warm before appplication?


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## fonz (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, great information here from Chemmy and everyone else. I will give it a try this weekend and report back with my results! Thank you all for the input, this is a great community!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

fonz said:


> I will give it a try this weekend and report back with my results! Thank you all for the input, this is a great community!


We go to the trouble to get our stock to a workable moisture content, and then to wet it. Not me. Much easier to use NGR (non grain raising) type dyes/stains (alcohol based), or oil base. If there is some grain raising, through the sequence of finishing and sanding between applications, problems like that usually get addressed.









 







.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> Just curious if the glue coat in any way affects the application of stains, oil mixtures, poly ,etc.
> 
> Also I noticed you used the term "warm" above a couple times. Should the glue/water mix be a little warm before appplication?


lol, of course it affect the penetration, that is it's purpose to allow the stain to be more uniform, that said, the hide glue allows for much more penetration of dyes than the white glue does, that should [if possible] be thinned more than the hide glue formula ok? 

i use the hide when dyeing, the white when using pigmented stains. if at all. i usually prepare my wood to the point where i get little or ant blotching to begin with. its only rotary cut veneers i usually have any trouble with at all. A thin coat of finish or shellac can be used as well for the same basic purposes of uniformity also. anything that creates a barrier between the wood and stain. hide glue is just the oldest traditional method is all. 

I don't see where i used "warm" Tom?? the only refference i can think i would make on that is if you were using hot hide glue? i normally use franklins liquid hide glue or make my own using hide and urea as a viscosity suppresent.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> We go to the trouble to get our stock to a workable moisture content, and then to wet it. Not me. Much easier to use NGR (non grain raising) type dyes/stains (alcohol based), or oil base. If there is some grain raising, through the sequence of finishing and sanding between applications, problems like that usually get addressed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Come on C'man, were only talking of wetting the top surface of the wood, it's not like were masking off and pouring a 1/4 inch of water and letting itsoak til it's dry, my god i can wet a top and dry it with a hair dryer in minutes to raise the grain and have it dry to sand, i'n not letting the edge end grain sit in a bucket of water for 10 min or more to let it soak up maximim moisture. Hell, if that were the case factories would never had let their kiln dried lumber go through the grain rasing process.:no:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

My bad...I think I misunderstood. When a natural wood finish is desired I m guessing the thinned white glue should not be used. This is only for getting even stain and dye coats....Got it.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> My bad...I think I misunderstood. When a natural wood finish is desired I m guessing the thinned white glue should not be used. This is only for getting even stain and dye coats....Got it.


 Now you got it Tom!!!


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Although the more i think about it, I guess it couldn't "hurt" necessarily to use the glue/water solution if one was simply applying a film finish to raw wood, such as poly or lacquer etc, since those essentially sit on top of the wood. Kind of the same effect as a sanding sealer i guess.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> Although the more i think about it, I guess it couldn't "hurt" necessarily to use the glue/water solution if one was simply applying a film finish to raw wood, such as poly or lacquer etc, since those essentially sit on top of the wood. Kind of the same effect as a sanding sealer i guess.


Why diminish the properties of the clear coatings if it is not necessary to do so? your correct, but unless it has a need to be applied it is just a wasted step.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> Why diminish the properties of the clear coatings if it is not necessary to do so? your correct, but unless it has a need to be applied it is just a wasted step.


Yeah I was just thinking that if after sanding the solution down it does indeed give you that "smooth as glass" surface, it may require less coats of film finish and result in a somewhat closer to the wood look......perhaps not


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Tom5151 said:


> Yeah I was just thinking that if after sanding the solution down it does indeed give you that "smooth as glass" surface, it may require less coats of film finish and result in a somewhat closer to the wood look......perhaps not


 
Ahh....your talking of the "hide glue" i thought you meant the white glue. :yes:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

chemmy said:


> Ahh....your talking of the "hide glue" i thought you meant the white glue. :yes:


LOL...evidently I have NO idea what I'm talking about...i was thinking that it was the white glue solution that once sanded produced the "smooth as glass" surface......not sure where i read that. I thought it was in this thread but as i went back and read it i can't see that reference..........I think i am just going to paint all my wood....far less trouble.....LOL.....just kidding


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