# Pros and Cons of Woodworking with Manual Tools



## WoodworkingTalk (Dec 8, 2015)

> There are unlimited options for those who love working with wood. You can do amazing things with routers, CNCs and other machines, but there’s something to be said for working with manual tools as well. If you’ve been thinking of taking up manual woodworking, here are a few things that you should consider. Manual tools aren’t for everybody, but it may be worth checking to see if they suit you.


*Read More*:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/articles/pros-and-cons-of-woodworking-with-manual-tools/


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I agree with some, not all of the above*

As far as greater control using manual/hand tools, not in my opinion...... and if so, only if you are very skilled.

Here's my thinking. If I set my table saw for a width of 2" and make a test pass and measure it, it's gonna be 2" no matter what. If I have a power planer and set it to 2" and run a test pass, it will plane all the succeeding boards to that dimension in a heartbeat. If I want to handplane a board to 2" it will take several types of planes, several passes over the rough stock, and several measurements, and repeated sighting to insure that it's a constant 2" along the length... that require some special tools and some good skills and considerably more time.

So, time and accuracy are interrelated. If time is NOT a factor then handplane to your heart's content. If there is this "connection" as some woodworkers describe it, between the material, the process and the woodworker, and that is important, then go for it. In my case the connection is not as important as getting to the finished product, so I'll use the best, most accurate and least time consuming method I have at my disposal.

In my case, I have a pretty good collection of handplanes, Japaneses gouges and slicks and Robert Sorby mortising chisels and all are beautiful to look at and work with. I use use them when the operation requires it and it's very satisfying to see the results. A Japanese type pull saw is often just the right tool for my needs and no ther saw will work. As with hammers, screwdrivers, pliers, etc., there is no one tools that will do every task well, so you end up with more than one type of plane, chisel, gouge, etc. and pretty soon you have a "collection". :yes:


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## EWerner (Oct 14, 2010)

It is a Roy Underhill or Norm Abram approach to wood working and I use both. In the winter when I am driven indoors because the shop is cold, I take to my small shop in the basement and use hand tools. Plus collecting hand tools at antique shops and thrift stores is fun.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

I like working with hand tools. As you say, it gives a greater satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment than what is possible by power tools.


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## Wyo7200 (Apr 29, 2015)

Handtools give me a connection to the wood and a peace that calms my ptsd.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Wyo7200 said:


> Handtools give me a connection to the wood and a peace that calms my ptsd.


I completely agree! It is much more soothing to work gently with the wood than to beat it into submission with a power tool.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

WoodworkingTalk said:


> *Pro: Feel Like a “Real” Woodworker*


So, what, I'm a "fake" woodworker because I use power tools?


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

I use power tools for rough cutting my lumber and planning down to thickness, other than that hand tools the whole way. I am in no rush to make anything and I really like the feeling of using a plane, chisel, scrape, mallet, et al. This was done by hand:
(except the bevel on the table top..that I ran through my TS....and I am here to tell you...do not try to do that alone!


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Wow, that's a great looking coffee table! Mahogany or maple?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is really nothing that can be made with power tools that can't be made with manual tools. It just increases the skill level of the person doing it and the time it takes to preform a task. What might take minutes to do with power tools could take a person all day doing manually. It's actually what made the dovetail joint a sign of good craftsmanship. In the old days before mechanism people used to look at the dovetail joints of a cabinetmaker to see what kind of craftsman he was. The dovetail joint was so difficult to make precisely by hand a so so cabinetmaker might have some minor gaps in the joints. Now in today's furniture factories you could almost train a chimpanzee to do dovetail joints and folks still look for the dovetail joint for quality. I'm sure there is a lot of satisfaction in building the old way however myself the end result is all that is important. If a task can be done easier and better with power tools that is what I use. The only hand plane I own is a block plane I use maybe every other year. I have been known though to make small pieces of molding with wood carving chisels because I can make the molding easier than the tooling to run the molding on a machine.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> Wow, that's a great looking coffee table! Mahogany or maple?


Thanks....Sapele


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

To each their own, for some it is the destination, for others the journey.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

To work properly, hand tools have to razor sharp. Not all people have the ambition to succeed at that. Wood has to be cut, so one will have to know how to sharpen a saw or buy a new one every time one gets dull. A kicker there is that not all saws come as sharp as they can be made to be. While chisels and plane irons are rather easy in comparison they still require frequent sharpening and tweaking.

Wood suitable for hand tools needs to have a consistent straight grain. Knotty and figured wood give problems to the hand plane, dulling it quickly or chipping out. Hard woods like oak and sugar maple require a great deal more effort than cherry, mahogany or poplar.

Arduous activity doesn't guarantee a quality result unless its the activity one is most interested in. By what's been written already, that activity, for some, is prime.


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

Ford -vs- Chevy
Left -vs- Right
Power -vs- Hand tools

There seems to be something in human nature where we have to take a side and then adhere tightly to it. I think this limits us.

I have a lot of tools and I use them all the time. I have stationary, portable, battery, and hand tools. I have used hand tools for 55 years, stationary power tools for 45 years, and portable power tools for probably about 43 years. I do everything from small home and hobby projects to major remodels. It is a rare project where I do not use all of those categories of tools. My planes are not pretty because they get a lot of use. I go through 3/4" wood chisels like there is no tomorrow. I'm also in the market for a new table saw and my router table got a load of mortar dropped on it, so it will need replacement, too. I'm about to start working on re-installing a kitchen full of cabinets and I'll need to make some new ones to match the old ones, so that router table is rising to the top of my list.

As a hobbyist, you have complete flexibility in your choice of working methods. You do not usually have time constraints (unless you got started late making those Christmas presents!) You can use all hand tools if you want and everyone will be in awe - if you do a good job. But the learning curve is arduous and you'll leave a trail of lesser quality work or firewood behind you before you can truly do that awesome work. 
At the same time, almost everyone is really going to judge your work on the results, not on how you did it. So if you use power tools along with the hand tools you'll produce more great work and at an earlier stage in your development.

The opportunities for professional woodworkers who only use hand tools are vanishingly small because the market for their extremely expensive work is vanishingly small. Young guys starting out with ardor and beliefs and no fear of poverty may go into this market, but only the cream of the crop will survive. Almost all others will start adopting power tools to increase their productivity so they can make more than 50 cents an hour. 

So now I have a tangential question to pose. Where does non-electric machinery fit into the spectrum of hand to power tools? Treadle lathes, egg-beater drills, and the like? At what level of complexity does a hand tool become a machine?


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## Stevebo (Nov 11, 2014)

For me, as an amateur where time taken to complete a project isn't of great importance, two pros of hand tools are:

1. Much less dust, which is good as I have a pretty limited workspace and no extraction fan system
2. I have tactile and kinesthetic learning style. This is not a good thing with table saws.


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

Much less dust. What a fantasy! I do envy you that.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

This post is the silliest post so far for 2016. 
Hand tools or power tools? 
Really?
Open it up to everything else in life;
Walk or ride?
Dig a grave with a shovel or a backhoe?
Do it the hardest/slowest way possible or do it easily and quickly?

You get my drift. 
Since the beginning of time, man has always looked for a better way of doing things. Unless you're demonstrating how something was done in the old days, I see little reason not to progress forward.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> This post is the silliest post so far for 2016.
> Hand tools or power tools?
> Really?
> Open it up to everything else in life;
> ...


Yea, you could always do like me and spend three years building one little table. :laughing:


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Yea, you could always do like me and spend three years building one little table. :laughing:


Heck, I could do it in four years with power tools. :blink:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

FatBear said:


> Heck, I could do it in four years with power tools. :blink:


Ok, go for it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you seem to have missed the point*



Toolman50 said:


> This post is the silliest post so far for 2016.
> Hand tools or power tools?
> Really?
> Open it up to everything else in life;
> ...


There's are millions of folks who ride motorcycles and it's not about the destination. Having ridden to both the East and West coasts from Detroit, there is nothing quite like the fresh air and openness and the rumble of a Harley or other V twin engine. A 100 HP Harley will get you there as fast or faster than a sub compact car with the same HP, but you won't have the same experience. For some, it's about the journey and sometimes the comradeship of riding with other like minded folks.

You may not want the fastest or easiest means to get to the destination, you may just want to plug along and enjoy the journey........


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Ok, go for it.


He he. You know it was a joke. That is quite a table!


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## docferg (Feb 6, 2008)

WoodworkingTalk said:


> There are unlimited options for those who love working with wood. You can do amazing things with routers, CNCs and other machines, but there’s something to be said for working with manual tools as well. If you’ve been thinking of taking up manual woodworking, here are a few things that you should consider. Manual tools aren’t for everybody, but it may be worth checking to see if they suit you.
> 
> *Pro: Greater Control*
> 
> ...



I have a friend that came into possession of sash tools for window making as they did in the 30's. Plus some more specialized planes. I would love to have those tools but he will not part with them in his life.
I admire his find and he has used some of these tools to recreate some old stiles that are almost impossible to find anymore. He is one lucky guy. Doc Ferg


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> There's are millions of folks who ride motorcycles and it's not about the destination. Having ridden to both the East and West coasts from Detroit, there is nothing quite like the fresh air and openness and the rumble of a Harley or other V twin engine. A 100 HP Harley will get you there as fast or faster than a sub compact car with the same HP, but you won't have the same experience. For some, it's about the journey and sometimes the comradeship of riding with other like minded folks.
> 
> You may not want the fastest or easiest means to get to the destination, you may just want to plug along and enjoy the journey........


I compliment you for such a viewpoint. And there's no room for argument because I know you are right. It is still mind boggling to me. It's like me trying to understand why an Amish man plows his fields with horses. 
I own hand tools, electric tools and a growing number of battery operated tools. I pick the best tool for the application. I don't choose the tool because it makes me feel closer to nature or whatever. 
Although I too used to like to feel the wind in my face.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

FatBear said:


> He he. You know it was a joke. That is quite a table!


It'll be the last for me. I will never have the time or the strength to do another project like that again. I think I was around 25 when I built that table. I know I started it around 1977 when I took woodcarving classes. 1/2 of one of the faces on the figurines I didn't do, the teacher carved it to show me what to do. I took classes from this guy for two or three years. http://www.texaswoodcarving.com/ludwig-kieninger


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## 1styear (Dec 27, 2015)

For my two cents which doesn't mean much, I believe a person who uses hand tools is a true master carpenter


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

1styear said:


> For my two cents which doesn't mean much, I believe a person who uses hand tools is a true master carpenter


Only if he produces masterful work. Remember that during the days when pros used hand tools, there would only be one master over a whole group of journeymen and apprentices - many of whom only turned out moderate quality.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Toolman50 said:


> This post is the silliest post so far for 2016. Hand tools or power tools? Really? Open it up to everything else in life; Walk or ride? Dig a grave with a shovel or a backhoe? Do it the hardest/slowest way possible or do it easily and quickly? You get my drift. Since the beginning of time, man has always looked for a better way of doing things. Unless you're demonstrating how something was done in the old days, I see little reason not to progress forward.


 Outhouse or indoor plumbing. Chainsaw or chopping axe? Cell phone or telegraph? Typewriter or computer?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

When you have deadlines to make you need to go with what is fastest and does the best job. I am past all the deadlines now, so I want to take my time and enjoy wood working for a change, not go at it at breakneck speed to finish and get it set.

Another reason I want more hand tools is, I piddle around in the shop after hours when I can't use power tools, as the noise would disturb neighbors, so the quite whisper of slicing wood with a super sharp plane or cutting with an old antique hand miter saw really fills the bill for me.

I like to just take my time, do a little work, sit and drink coffee and enjoy what I am doing, I am too old for the fast pace now days. It took me a looooong time to get here so I am going to enjoy it.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

BigJim said:


> When you have deadlines to make you need to go with what is fastest and does the best job. I am past all the deadlines now, so I want to take my time and enjoy wood working for a change, not go at it at breakneck speed to finish and get it set.
> 
> Another reason I want more hand tools is, I piddle around in the shop after hours when I can't use power tools, as the noise would disturb neighbors, so the quite whisper of slicing wood with a super sharp plane or cutting with an old antique hand miter saw really fills the bill for me.
> 
> I like to just take my time, do a little work, sit and drink coffee and enjoy what I am doing, I am too old for the fast pace now days. It took me a looooong time to get here so I am going to enjoy it.


Sounds like you found a hobby. :laughing:


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## Develin (Oct 1, 2012)

I may have missed something but isn't this pros and cons of HAND tools? I didn't think it was a comparison between hand tool wood working and machine woodworking both of which have their place in any good workshop.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

FatBear said:


> Only if he produces masterful work. Remember that during the days when pros used hand tools, there would only be one master over a whole group of journeymen and apprentices - many of whom only turned out moderate quality.


Also in the old days the master craftsman used the best type tools available for the time. I have to think if the machinery we all use now was available them they would have used it. It's mainly a different attitude today. In the old days the master craftsman took what ever time was needed to produce the best work possible. Not like today where producing a product fast trumps quality.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Also in the old days the master craftsman used the best type tools available for the time. I have to think if the machinery we all use now was available them they would have used it. It's mainly a different attitude today. In the old days the master craftsman took what ever time was needed to produce the best work possible. Not like today where producing a product fast trumps quality.



"Also in the old days the master craftsman used the best type tools available for the time. I have to think if the machinery we all use now was available them they would have used it."

I would agree..


"It's mainly a different attitude today. In the old days the master craftsman took what ever time was needed to produce the best work possible. Not like today where producing a product fast trumps quality."

I would disagree..

I can use whatever time is required to build a product, but once built a production time frame is developed in order to establish a reasonable price.

"It takes just as long to do it right as it does to do it wrong" 

The time frame from yesterday is the same today as it will be in the future.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> "Also in the old days the master craftsman used the best type tools available for the time. I have to think if the machinery we all use now was available them they would have used it."
> 
> I would agree..
> 
> ...


I just meant in general. There will always be exceptions. What I meant is the stuff produced in factories today they cut as many corners as possible to get the product out the door.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this thread is off the rails*



Develin said:


> I may have missed something but isn't this pros and cons of HAND tools? I didn't think it was a comparison between hand tool wood working and machine woodworking both of which have their place in any good workshop.


It has devolved into a discussion of Hand vs Power tool, which is not the original topic. Thanks for pointing out the obvious! 

The "cons" of hand tools may bring up the use of power tools, as it relates to time and energy required, but this thread would be more interesting if we stayed on topic....JMO. :smile:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I just meant in general. There will always be exceptions. What I meant is the stuff produced in factories today they cut as many corners as possible to get the product out the door.


Corner cutting doesn't always mean the product suffers. Sometimes its about being more efficient. The plant I work for has seriously spent money on "The Toyota Way" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way It will take time and money but WORKS:thumbsup:

But I do understand what you are saying.:thumbsup:


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## FatBear (Feb 1, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Also in the old days the master craftsman used the best type tools available for the time. I have to think if the machinery we all use now was available them they would have used it.


Absolutely. In fact, they did continue to adopt newer/better/more-efficient/whatever tools as they came along which is what led us to today.


> It's mainly a different attitude today. In the old days the master craftsman took what ever time was needed to produce the best work possible. Not like today where producing a product fast trumps quality.


You must consider who those master craftsmen of old were working for. I'm sorry, but the ordinary people like pretty much all of us here could not afford their work. Period. Not back in the days of hand-only tools. To think otherwise is to live in a fantasy land where the past is all rosy and good and today is totally evil. The masters worked for those who could afford them. Their journeymen and apprentices may also have turned out work for whatever middle class there was. Poor people made their own or sat on crates. Most poor people were farmers and quite independent enough to make a table or chair, but unable to afford the best woods or tools and did not entertain in the high society levels where craftsmanship was mandatory. They made chairs to sit in. I know because I've got a bunch of them that my wife salvaged from the barn of the farm she grew up on. I really wish she hadn't. She thinks I can fix them up and make them nice.

We do live in a different world now. Everyone thinks they are, or should be, nobility. We all demand the biggest house, the fanciest car, etc. But few of us can truly afford all of this and so we demand the most stuff for the cheapest prices. And we keep Ikea and Home Depot thriving. We buy cookie cutter McMansions in subdivisions full of thousands of nearly identical ones. I've seen one subdivision of $1M+ houses with only three floorplans to choose from! That's mass production and that's how you make things cheap. Cabinets were made of laminated MDF and drawers were stamped steel. Real crap to my eyes, but they looked rich from across the room. I've also seen how those houses were put together. Ick.

I'm sure the master craftsmen of today would still prefer to take whatever time is necessary to produce the best possible work. I think there are a few even now who really can do that. But as I suggested earlier, no matter how much time they had I bet they would still use the most appropriate tool for the job and not be saddled by the religion of either only working manual or only working power.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Ok, go for it.


Steve
Ive seen carved furniture similar to yours in antique shops 
It seems most of it was made in Germany. 
Most of it had a very dark finish.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> Steve
> Ive seen carved furniture similar to yours in antique shops
> It seems most of it was made in Germany.
> Most of it had a very dark finish.


Actually the inspiration for the table comes from this picture in a book I have. This table was dutch. I did get some help from a German guy learning how to do it. Most of the carved furniture was made in the 19th century and it was just the style then to stain furniture dark. The picture of that table was taken more than 30 years ago and the finishing work wasn't very good. I just put a clear finish on it and there was too much variation in color of the mahogany I used. The majority of the wood I used was unusually dark for Honduras mahogany and a few pieces were unusually light making an awful contrast. I have since refinished the table and bleached the dark mahogany a little and stained the light wood so it is now uniform. 

To tell the truth that table is another one of my unfinished projects. I built the table intending to put a marble or some natural stone top on it banded with a carved trim around the edge similar to the picture. It still has a Corian top I put on it until I could get a stone top made.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

FatBear said:


> Absolutely. In fact, they did continue to adopt newer/better/more-efficient/whatever tools as they came along which is what led us to today.
> You must consider who those master craftsmen of old were working for. I'm sorry, but the ordinary people like pretty much all of us here could not afford their work. Period. Not back in the days of hand-only tools. To think otherwise is to live in a fantasy land where the past is all rosy and good and today is totally evil. The masters worked for those who could afford them. Their journeymen and apprentices may also have turned out work for whatever middle class there was. Poor people made their own or sat on crates. Most poor people were farmers and quite independent enough to make a table or chair, but unable to afford the best woods or tools and did not entertain in the high society levels where craftsmanship was mandatory. They made chairs to sit in. I know because I've got a bunch of them that my wife salvaged from the barn of the farm she grew up on. I really wish she hadn't. She thinks I can fix them up and make them nice.
> 
> We do live in a different world now. Everyone thinks they are, or should be, nobility. We all demand the biggest house, the fanciest car, etc. But few of us can truly afford all of this and so we demand the most stuff for the cheapest prices. And we keep Ikea and Home Depot thriving. We buy cookie cutter McMansions in subdivisions full of thousands of nearly identical ones. I've seen one subdivision of $1M+ houses with only three floorplans to choose from! That's mass production and that's how you make things cheap. Cabinets were made of laminated MDF and drawers were stamped steel. Real crap to my eyes, but they looked rich from across the room. I've also seen how those houses were put together. Ick.
> ...


The sad part is, some of the wood workers back in the 1800s and earlier were slaves.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

This thread really goes hand in hand with the 'Is WW All About Tools' thread. My response could really fit either thread but I chose to post it here.

There have been some comments that dance around business versus hobby and that simply isn't apples to apples. A high quality craftsman that's running a business would be silly not to own power tools. The hobbyist that finds using only hand tools enlightening is a whole different thing.


In a perfect world I'd love to be Mark Harmon sitting in a basement with no electricity other than lights and a radio, but I straight up don't have that kind of free time. Maybe some day.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Chamfer said:


> This thread really goes hand in hand with the 'Is WW All About Tools' thread. My response could really fit either thread but I chose to post it here.
> 
> There have been some comments that dance around business versus hobby and that simply isn't apples to apples. A high quality craftsman that's running a business would be silly not to own power tools. The hobbyist that finds using only hand tools enlightening is a whole different thing.
> 
> ...


They never show how he gets those boats out of his basement. :laughing:


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I know right. For anyone who watches that show it's always a discussion topic.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*Hand tools are safer too!*

A pro of hand tools that has been missed so far in the discussion is there's much smaller chance of getting maimed or killed with a hand tool when compared to a power tool. While many serious injuries and deaths have been reported as a result of power tool accidents, I don't recall even one in case of hand tools. (Of course, there is a chance of getting nicked by a chisel or a hand saw if one is a novice, but not a life threatening injury).

Hand tools are much safer (though slower) way of working the wood.:thumbsup:


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

^ You should take a look at our 'Lets See Some Damage' thread.

Several hand tool accidents that were more than a 'nick'.


IMHO safety is not a worthwhile excuse for advocating hand tools over power tools.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> ^ You should take a look at our 'Lets See Some Damage' thread. Several hand tool accidents that were more than a 'nick'. IMHO safety is not a worthwhile excuse for advocating hand tools over power tools.


 Have you ever seen a amputation cause by hand tools? I have seen some nasty cuts some even required a hand surgeon, but nothing to compare to an angry table saw.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I've seen a guy smash his finger with a 4lb mallet so bad that it needed to be amputated. 

A tool is a tool, period. They should all be treated like loaded weapons.

Statistics are higher for power tools because more of them are in use today than hand tools, but the dangers for both are the same.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Chamfer said:


> I've seen a guy smash his finger with a 4lb mallet so bad that it needed to be amputated.


 4 lb mallet? Wow! Never saw one being used by a woodworker.:laughing:

But I know 4 lb sledgehammers are used in metalworking.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The tool, any of them, don't have any regard for the intelligence or lack of it on the other end. It doesn't care how it's used or misused and will result either a good or less than good outcome. 

Sharp always wins over skin. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Have you ever seen a amputation cause by hand tools? I have seen some nasty cuts some even required a hand surgeon, but nothing to compare to an angry table saw.


I saw a guy cut the tendons off in his hand using a hack saw. He had to have a hand surgeon put it back together. I put a 1/4" woodcarving chisel through the palm of my hand one time but I never went to the doctor with it.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I saw a guy cut the tendons off in his hand using a hack saw. He had to have a hand surgeon put it back together. I put a 1/4" woodcarving chisel through the palm of my hand one time but I never went to the doctor with it.


 Ok, but you have never seen someone actually loose a finger or worse using hand tools.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Ok, but you have never seen someone actually loose a finger or worse using hand tools.


You're right. I've only seen someone loose a finger once. He was cutting a used piece of wood on a table saw that had a nail hanging down. When the nail reached the saw table and stopped he reached behind the blade to lift the board up and when it kicked back it pulled his thumb through the blade taking it off. Just so happens it was the same guy that cut the tendons off in his hand with the hack saw. After recuperating from loosing his thumb he was removed from doing work with power tools and given a safer job. (So they thought)

I got the fun job of picking the thumb up off the floor and chasing the business owner and foreman to the hospital in case they could put it back on. The thumb looked like a clean cut but they said it mangled the part on his hand so bad they couldn't put it back on.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You're right. I've only seen someone loose a finger once. He was cutting a used piece of wood on a table saw that had a nail hanging down. When the nail reached the saw table and stopped he reached behind the blade to lift the board up and when it kicked back it pulled his thumb through the blade taking it off. Just so happens it was the same guy that cut the tendons off in his hand with the hack saw. After recuperating from loosing his thumb he was removed from doing work with power tools and given a safer job. (So they thought) I got the fun job of picking the thumb up off the floor and chasing the business owner and foreman to the hospital in case they could put it back on. The thumb looked like a clean cut but they said it mangled the part on his hand so bad they couldn't put it back on.


 Some people could get hurt in a bubble wrap house.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Some people could get hurt in a bubble wrap house.


That's always been my point with all the safety gadgets they put on equipment. This guy had no business working in a cabinet shop.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Ok, but you have never seen someone actually loose a finger or worse using hand tools.


So its only an injury if it results in amputation? I don't know if you've ever severed a tendon, but that's still an extremely severe injury with affects just as bad as an amputation

In the handy of an idiot any tool is dangerous, power or no


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> So its only an injury if it results in amputation? I don't know if you've ever severed a tendon, but that's still an extremely severe injury with affects just as bad as an amputation In the handy of an idiot any tool is dangerous, power or no


 I will take a severed tendon over a total amputation. Even if you never regain full use of that finger it is still more useful than a nub. Have you ever heard of someone severing two or more tendons at the same time with a handsaw? There are lots of people missing several fingers from the same power tool accident. Have you ever heard of someone suffering a serious handsaw kickback? I agree an idiot will get hurt no matter what, but it will be less severe with a hand tool. Would you rather give an idiot a trip hammer or regular hammer? Would you rather give an idiot a chainsaw or cross cut saw. Would you rather give a drunk a truck or a bicycle?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> I will take a severed tendon over a total amputation. Even if you never regain full use of that finger it is still more useful than a nub. Have you ever heard of someone severing two or more tendons at the same time. There are lots of people missing several fingers from the same accident. Have you ever heard of someone suffering a serious handsaw kickback?


Life is a risk. You take a bigger risk going to the store buying lumber than getting hurt in the shop. The woodworking world has turned it's back on hand tools because machinery is so much more productive. It's mainly the folks that work with hand tools for nostalgic sake that keep it going.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Life is a risk. You take a bigger risk going to the store buying lumber than getting hurt in the shop. The woodworking world has turned it's back on hand tools because machinery is so much more productive. It's mainly the folks that work with hand tools for nostalgic sake that keep it going.


 I completely agree. I'm not even a hand tool woodworker.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Exactly!*



hwebb99 said:


> I completely agree. I'm not even a hand tool woodworker.



The title of the thread is:
*Pros and Cons of Woodworking with Manual Tools 

*The original intent and subject has long been disregarded. It should be titled:
*Manual tools vs Power Tools in Woodworking.*


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Chamfer said:


> I've seen a guy smash his finger with a 4lb mallet so bad that it needed to be amputated.
> 
> A tool is a tool, period. They should all be treated like loaded weapons.
> 
> Statistics are higher for power tools because more of them are in use today than hand tools, but the dangers for both are the same.


Saw a guy do the same once with one of those waffle head looking framing hammers. A fairly 'heavy' one in my opinion and he had some effort put into his blow...

Looked way worse than a smushed grape. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Anyone getting a new channel on TV called Create TV. They have a show from Roy Underhill that works with hand tools in the old way.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> Anyone getting a new channel on TV called Create TV. They have a show from Roy Underhill that works with hand tools in the old way.


We have Create TV but Underhill hasn't been on there in a good while, I will check to see if he is coming back on.

Just checked, he is coming back on, I got them set to record all his shows.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

In the Dallas area the channel has only been there a week or so. Tonight's show they had a blacksmith make a woodworking chisel.


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## gumbo2176 (Jan 19, 2016)

Underhill has been a fixture on our local PBS station for years and I catch his show a few times a month. It is interesting to see how things were done before power tools became all the rage.

He proves that some things like moulding planes cut a profile much faster than the time it takes to find the bit, put it in a router, adjust the depth of cut and run a test piece to see if all is adjusted right. Plus much less noise and a lot less dust to deal with in the end, just nice long wood shavings.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

gumbo2176 said:


> Underhill has been a fixture on our local PBS station for years and I catch his show a few times a month. It is interesting to see how things were done before power tools became all the rage.
> 
> He proves that some things like moulding planes cut a profile much faster than the time it takes to find the bit, put it in a router, adjust the depth of cut and run a test piece to see if all is adjusted right. Plus much less noise and a lot less dust to deal with in the end, just nice long wood shavings.


 Talking of moulding planes :laughing::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcQap0qJiA


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

A couple hundred feet with that plane and you would have some severe aches.  Beautiful plane though.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Jig_saw said:


> Talking of moulding planes :laughing:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcQap0qJiA


 There is a big advantage to hand tools. You can't fit that many power tools in such a small shop.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

gumbo2176 said:


> Underhill has been a fixture on our local PBS station for years and I catch his show a few times a month. It is interesting to see how things were done before power tools became all the rage.
> 
> He proves that some things like moulding planes cut a profile much faster than the time it takes to find the bit, put it in a router, adjust the depth of cut and run a test piece to see if all is adjusted right. Plus much less noise and a lot less dust to deal with in the end, just nice long wood shavings.


How many 16 foot sticks can he produce in an hour? (including setup time.) 

Not many people want to make just 1 ea 2 foot piece.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ya never know....*



GeorgeC said:


> How many 16 foot sticks can he produce in an hour? (including setup time.)
> 
> Not many people want to make just 1 ea 2 foot piece.
> 
> George


This old feller makes a 5 ft piece of molding because he couldn't buy just 5 ft and no one had it regardless......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRviFZLXBi8


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> This old feller makes a 5 ft piece of molding because he couldn't buy just 5 ft and no one had it regardless......
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRviFZLXBi8


That was interesting, think it answered somebody else's question about molding from a few days ago as well.

Just don't knock his radial arm saw and we will get along just fine. :laughing:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's my favorite RAS video!*



FrankC said:


> Just don't knock his radial arm saw and we will get along just fine. :laughing:


That old feller has a great imagination and a "mastery" of the RAS. I think all the passes he made were "rips" as well. So much for the "Don't rip on a RAS" .... theory. Not only that, the saw he uses is ..... a ..... Craftsman.:blink:
Unbelievable! Looks just like some of mine.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

*But it takes longer to set up!*



woodnthings said:


> This old feller makes a 5 ft piece of molding because he couldn't buy just 5 ft and no one had it regardless......
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRviFZLXBi8


Every groove pattern has to be cut in a different way requiring several different cutters. This means a lot of set up time for a 5 ft piece of moulding.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*yeah, so what?*



Jig_saw said:


> Every groove pattern has to be cut in a different way requiring several different cutters. This means a lot of set up time for a 5 ft piece of moulding.


Apparently, like he stated, there was not another way to get/make/buy that unusual piece of molding. Apparently he also had the time to make the setups. Apparently that worked for him in this case.....

Your proposal is what? ... hand carve 5 ft of it? :blink:


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Your proposal is what? ... hand carve 5 ft of it? :blink:


 A molding plane is better, cheaper, and easier:yes::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jAcQap0qJiA


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't know, I think I could make a shaper knife and run a 5' piece of molding before someone could make a plane knife and make the molding by hand. This would be especially true if the plane guy was a purist and didn't use a grinder to make the plane knife. I think everyone forgets the work for the tooling. That is the most time consuming part of making molding.


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't know, I think I could make a shaper knife and run a 5' piece of molding before someone could make a plane knife and make the molding by hand. This would be especially true if the plane guy was a purist and didn't use a grinder to make the plane knife. I think everyone forgets the work for the tooling. That is the most time consuming part of making molding.


Actually, it is not necessary to make a custom moulding plane for every shape. Many carpenters stock a variety of moulding planes of common shapes (like hollows, rounds, rabbets, chamfers, etc.) in the same way as one stocks router bits. They can be used to generate any complex profile without much difficulty. It can be amazing how easy it is to do so as opposed to setting up milling cutters and shaper knives. Any pattern can be almost exactly duplicated without much effort.

I am not a 'purist' and certainly not averse to using power saws to cut out rabbets and dados to remove material before moulding planes can be used.

Here is a link on using molding planes with some reference books:
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2014/01/10/moulding-planes/


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

There is just something satisfying about making trim by hand methods, it, to me, seems like a challenge answered.

When I was doing a lot of restoration work of the old homes that were built in the late 1700s early 1800s, we had to make the trim to match in many area's. In true historic manner, you don't totally replace the whole stick of trim,you match a section. 

Trying to find a router/shaper cutter to match some cuts was not easy, and very time consuming, even then they sometimes had to be modified. I would have loved to had a well tuned #45 or even a #55 Stanley plane back then. OK scratch the #55, that was the plane straight from... well you know. LOL That would have been easier and less time consumed having to drive far to find the cutters then all the set ups. JMHO


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## blackpearl (Jul 20, 2012)

Thiis is a thought provoking thread indeed. 
I am a humble hobbyist, nowhere near the kind of skills seen in the works posted by people here. I started learning with a hand saw, a jack plane, some chisels and files. My present power tool inventory consists of a hand held disk saw, a jigsaw, a sander and drills. The powertools greatly reduce the mascle work (I'm 62...), but I cannot avoid using the hand tools for the final effect. 

How did powertools come to be tagged with hobbyists? 
If the master carpenters of the olden days had the tools we have today, would they have created better furnitures? I think they would have, with less elbow grease. If Ansel Adams had a DSLR, would he have made even better photographs? A DSLR can take photographs that are in sharp focus and accurately exposed, but the creativity comes from the head behind the camera. So the photographer can concentrate on the composition better.

I think it is the person and his/her passion that make the difference. Tools evolve out of necessity and the technology available, and are at the mercy of the user - to be used or abused. 
The first discourse by WoodworkingTalk sums it all - every tool has a pro and a con. A tool is just a tool in the hands of a craftsman.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Yea, you could always do like me and spend three years building one little table. :laughing:


Steve,
I've never discussed your carved table which is a masterpiece, but I'm guessing you used some power tools for some of the pieces prior to your carving. 
Bandsaw?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> Steve,
> I've never discussed your carved table which is a masterpiece, but I'm guessing you used some power tools for some of the pieces prior to your carving.
> Bandsaw?


Sure, I cut the initial shape of the figures with a bandsaw. The skirts were cut out with a table saw and mitered. Then the through cuts in the carving was done with a jigsaw. The bun feet and the spindle in the center was done on my lathe. All of this was a tiny fraction of the time spent on the table compared to the carving. 

This one was actually cut out twice. I had it laid out right and the carving teacher insisted I had the arm at the wrong angle so I took the piece of wood off that was to be the arm and turned it actually 90 degrees from the way it is shown here. After getting the frame of the table laid out I discovered I had it right to begin with and had to cut the carved arm off, add some wood in and reshape it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Here's a great example of hand vs power woodworking*

Although not the original topic of the thread, this woodworker combines both methods of woodworking using power tools for removing most of the material and hand tools for fine tuning the joinery. The end result is a pretty darn accurate and close fitting series of mortise and tenon and dovetail joints:


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## Jig_saw (May 17, 2015)

One advantage of working with hand tools that may not be covered previously: some knotted and highly figured boards may ruin a power planer, but can be planed by an angled hand plane. Similarly, cutting a rabbet in such a wood with a router can lead to a tear out but is easily performed by a skewed rabbet plane.


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