# Dust Collection Basics



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I dread starting this since dust collection is one of the most widely discussed issues here but That said, here goes.
In order of size and cost: 
Shop vac.
Shop vac with dust deputy
Shop vac with separator

Portable dust collector, blower with a bag

Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with bag 2 - 5 micron
Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with canister filter 1 micron or less
Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with separator barrel, technically a 2 stage 

Fixed/permanent dust collector piped system overhead bags or filter
Fixed/permanent cyclone type with cartridge filter and dust container overhead pipes.
*
MY theory is that there are 2 types of wood waste generated by power tools: "dust" and "chips".
* 
For *fine dust* like that generated by a radial arm saw, router table, and table saw, ROS hand sanders, belt sanders, a shop vac is adequate and because of the higher velocity works better. The filter will require cleaning in an hour or two of sanding. It doesn't stop working, it's just is not as efficient. Dust from sawing is more forgiving and I have a shop vac connected to my RAS and TS and it works great. TS has a over the blade collector on top and it works great.

For the large number of *chips* that come off a jointer, or planer a high volume collector is best. 

Now the* debate*: Why use a cyclone collector for machines like the jointer or planer? Why not use a 2 stage with a bag and a separator?
The small "*dust*" container on a cyclone will fill with *chips* in short order and require emptying more often. I don't have a cyclone so this is a "theory" of mine.

A lengthy run on the planer will fill the underbag or barrel of a 2 stage in a day.

A long run on the 24" drum sander will clog the filter on a canister
or bag collector in short order, so use a separator or dust deputy type cyclone. The permanent cyclone collector will be best for the drum sander or wide belt sander generating loads of dust.

Unless I've missed something here, the cyclones are being "over sold"
and have specific applications where they really are the best choice.
My view is that the drum sander would be the best application.

For a $1000 investment I can get a 2 HP cyclone.
Or two possibly 3, if on sale, 1 1/2 HP mobile canister collectors, 1 micron filters.

Which is the best investment? I'm considering a cyclone even though I have 3 mobile collectors, with 1 micron cartridges filters.
1 1/2 HP Jets and a 2 HP Jet. I use a 2 stage with canister collector for the drum sander, but it is not used frequently. 

Any comments?  bill


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## Yeorwned (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm stuck in the same boat. I'm not really sure where I want to put money for dust collection. I consider myself only a hobbist at best and have limited space as you'd imagine. A pratical person would probably go for the seperator on a shop vac with a hepa filter and an ambient air cleaner. However, I just don't see this shop vac theory doing squat on my table saw or radial arm saw just like I don't see a true dust collector doing squat on my portable tools and such.

I don't want my dust collector to be the most expensive thing in my shop...


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## gregL (Feb 1, 2009)

I use a 3hp cyclone from Oneida Air and find it to taake care of the majority of my dust collection needs. I palce a plastic bag in the container and it takes only about 2 minutes to open the container and replace it with a new bag. The filter doesn't need cleaning except maybe once a week and when i clean it I blow it out with compressed air outside of my shop.
I use the cyclone for my 22 inch drum sander, 6 inch jointer, 15" planer, table saw, miter saw, 2 router tables, band saw and I have 2 flexible 4" hoses that are 25 ft long each to clean all the floor areas of my shop.
For my orbital sander I have it hooked up to a small festool shop vac. I use this small vac also with my handheld router that has a dust collection attachment for the router plate. This does a pretty decent job.
In the past I had a 2 stage mobile collector with bags that did an OK job but I am much more satisfied with the cyclone.


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## b00kemdano (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been slowly improving the air quality in my shop in the cheapest ways possible. 

First, I made an air filter. It's a plywood box with a bunch of old computer fans and a computer power supply to run them, with a household HVAC filter on one end. It's pretty cheapo, but it's better than a box fan pointed out the door (my original method).

Then, I decided to use my shop vac to collect the dust / chips from my work on the lathe - where I spend most of my time. That helped pull a lot of dust away from where I work, but the filter gets clogged pretty quickly, and most of the chips still hit the floor. I added a homemade plywood separator box that marginally slowed the shop vac filter clogging.

Then I got this month's WOOD magazine with the Harbor Freight DC coupon in it, plus a 20% off coupon. So, I went to my local HF. Got the 2hp DC with its crappy 5 micron filter bag for $140, plus the accessory kit for 20% off of $40. 

When I make a little bit more money with my wood products, I'll buy the Wynn convertion kit for the HF DC.

The way I see it, if you're running a shop on a tight (or zero) budget, anything is better than nothing. Each step of the way has been an improvement in my shop, and sooner or later, it might even qualify as "safe"!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This new product makes my point*

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=5&tool=65115

A self contained dust/chip collector which mounts right on the planer dust hood seems like a great idea for smaller planers, bench top units.
The AWFS show featured it with the new tools for 2009. 
This thread has had 100+ views and only 3 replies???

Does anyone else agree with my theory, or am I all "wet" and dusty. :laughing:

Theory being: fine sanding dust should be collected in cyclone unit,
sawdust in a 2 stage unit and chips can be managed with a single stage, blower with a bag type unit.
Secondary theory: Cyclones are over-hyped for a one unit does all.
If used for collecting "chips" from planers and jointers the small containers need to be emptied more frequently.
Any more comments on this? :blink: bill
AWFS show review: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/awfs


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## rocklobster (Jun 18, 2008)

I prefer the cyclone to do just about everything. That way I save room, no portable collectors to take up space or move around. One can to monitor and empty keeps things simple.

I've tried the shop vacs on many tools and haven't found them to be effective on anything except maybe a hand-held sander. The best use I've found for them is to keep one tucked under a machine that doesn't have really efficient collection (such as the lathe) and use it to suck up the chips that are left over.

Rob


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## I Make Mostly Dust (Jan 7, 2010)

*Dust Collection Worksheet, Excel*

Hi Everybody,

I just finished working out my own dust collection system needs for my shop. I used the 2007 Wood Magazine formulas and made up a spreadsheet..... 

Then I thought, how many other folks could use this? So I prettied it up some, added some notes and here it is. Please don't crucify me if it doesn't meet your needs, I make no claims as to its accuracy, I just used the Wood Magazine info. And please don't hold me liable. I just offer it in good woodworking faith.

If you want a copy, just email me at [email protected]


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## DerekG (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks, just sent an email your way for the spreadsheet.


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## mdlbldrmatt135 (Dec 6, 2006)

Picked up the HF collector over the weekend...... gonna make the Thein mod to it... and order the Wynn filter when my Tax refund shows up (that and a MIG welder) LOL I'm still debating on how to run the pipe as it's a small shop and stuff has to be moveable.


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## I Make Mostly Dust (Jan 7, 2010)

mdlbldrmatt135 said:


> Picked up the HF collector over the weekend...... gonna make the Thein mod to it... and order the Wynn filter when my Tax refund shows up (that and a MIG welder) LOL I'm still debating on how to run the pipe as it's a small shop and stuff has to be moveable.


I hear you, Matt135. I'm fortunate that I now have most stuff stationary. I'm using 5" pipe for my ducts, and am running it all the way to the tools where I can to make the most of it.

I can vouch for others who say you need a dedicated circuit for this machine. It tripped my 20 amp breaker at start-up while I also had a light plugged in.

Can you do me a favor? if you have an ammeter, could you please run a test for me?

1. Remove the wye inlet, start the DC, and measure the normal operating amps before the Wynn/Thein Conversion.

2. Do the same after the conversion. 

I'd like to know how much higher the post conversion amperage is with the reduction in back pressure.

Thanks to Bill Pentz, I obtained some good info on this machine:
Out of the box, the HF DC motor runs at about 11 amps, or 1.43 HP normally with both sides of the wye inlet open. That, and its 10.5" x 3" impeller, will suck about 900 CFM and will overcome a static pressure of about 9 inches, given it's 5" inlet size. If you switch to a 6" inlet plate on the blower you get a little more, maybe 1000 CFM. You would also get a little more with a larger impeller (say 12 inches) and a larger inlet.

So I'm really interested to know what this conversion will do for performance. Thanks.

By the way, I'd like to give a shout-out to Pentz. The man must get a ton of email, and he responded to mine right away in great detail, and was very nice about it. A very generous man.


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## mdlbldrmatt135 (Dec 6, 2006)

I Make Mostly Dust said:


> ICan you do me a favor? if you have an ammeter, could you please run a test for me?


 
I would if I had one....... After plying around on the Thein site more I'm contemplating Modding it even more so that the motor is right on top of a collection drum and the filter is up out of the way.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This thread has been hijacked*

:thumbdown: bill


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

*MY theory is that there are 2 types of wood waste generated by power tools aka "dust" and "chips". Posted by WoodnThings*



Bill,
I do tend to agree with you about the two types of dust. The big question i feel everyone has either asked or tried to think out for themselves is how to contain the two. Budget and space i feel play a huge part is answering this question.
Example= In my old shop (24x40) i had ample room for a complete dust containment/collector system, the space i have to work in now limits me, and i would suppose alot of other folks on this forum to whatever setup they can configure that will work best for them.
Now i know this subject has been beat to death on this forum, so here is conclusion i have come to -- Send pictures to a dedicated thread of your dust collection setup, maybe even explain a little how efficient and effective the particular system works for you, and some of the pros and cons of their particular DC system. I guess i am the type of person that can come to a better conclusion once i can see a picture versus a typed question. (That is the result of loosing to many brain cells:yes. Anyway it's just a thought.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Garry I'm just looking for opinions here*

And want to see if anyone has decided that my "theory' is correct and what their approach has been....Cyclone vs mobile vs bags etc. Yeah, a 3 to 5 Hp cyclone will do it all, but we're taklin' some serious $$$. In spite of my best efforts at dust collection there's still a lot of fine dust on everything in the shop. So I run the overhead air filtration Jet AFS 1000 also, but that doesn't correct the entire problem. Maybe the "mobile" units just aren't that efficient even with the 1 micron cartridge filters. 
My next thought is to build a large downdraft table/outfeed table/room air filter and just run it all the time....it might suck down the work as it passes onto the outfeed table... that wouldn't be good! :thumbdown:

Here's what I use currently: 
Two 1 1/2 HP Jets and a 2 HP Jet. 
I use one of the 1 1/2Hp Jets on the 24" dual drum sander, with 1 micron filter on the drum sander, and this is where I think a cyclone or a an add on dust separator would be most useful. Maybe a Thein or a Pentz cyclone? They even have a "giant gorilla" separator for $290.00 from Oneida. Probably worth a try anyway. :yes: bill

More info; http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b95cb3cc1cce88fa49dc9406b2194c70&topic=366.0

And the Thien* inside* a HF from post below: 
http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.ph....msg819#msg819

And this: http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b95cb3cc1cce88fa49dc9406b2194c70&topic=366.0


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## mdlbldrmatt135 (Dec 6, 2006)

Have you thought about the Thein inside the Jet? 

Pretty good thread here: http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=145.msg819#msg819


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

Bill,
Seems that you are as close to capturing as much dust as a person can. I can't see what else a weekend woodworker could have, and i'm guessing that is what most of us on this forum are. Dust is a big issue, when i say dust i am talking about that fine nasty stuff you get from sanding and the like, thats why i normally try to clean the work area at least 2 to 3 times a day when i am working in the garage, and a final time when i finish for the day. I know for a fact the system i have will not pick up the finer dust created in my work space. There are things we all could do to come closer to good air quality, and if i'm getting what you are talking about that is bottom line. Here is something to ponder, ever notice where all the fine dust goes, normally on the floor. Ever notice where people uausually install their additional air filtration, on the ceiling. For me personally, with the setup i have, trying to capture all the chips and dust would be like trying to shove a noodle up a wildcats butt. 
Now for my honest opinion--I don't think there is a way to capture "ALL" the dust we create in our respective shops, unless we could work in a totally sealed enviroment.


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## Jackfre (Dec 23, 2009)

*Having a basement shop*

I have to be concerned with the airborn dust too. I have a Delta 50-850 with a 1mc bag. I have a bunch of white oak 8&10/4x12x8" I've been turning into saw dust and chips and unfortunately...kindling. I am filling the lower bag in a heck of a hurry. I have the shop vacs too. One of the best units for the airborn is the JDS 200 filter box. It does a good job. There is a bag filter internal to the small pleat. I buy the pleated filters by the case (12 I think) from a Purolator distributor so I'm not getting killed on them. I carefully vacuum the bag filter when replacing the pleat and have not replaced it yet. I suppose I should soon.

Standard throw away furnace filters don't filter until they get dirty. Use pleats! If there is a market where liers figure and figures lie, it is the air filter manuf. To get a grip on this there are new rating systems in place over the past couple years. They have MERV ratings on air filters now. The higher the number the better the filter...from day one, meaning they do not have to get dirty to be effective.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm curious to find out whether you folks use respirator masks at all? I almost always have mine on so I don't worry as much about the dust collection (though I probably still should) other than just getting a semi-clean work area. One of these days I will either build or buy a separator to get the dust and chips in different collection bins, but for now all I use is a small shop vac and empty it out every once in a while.


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## rocklobster (Jun 18, 2008)

frankp said:


> I'm curious to find out whether you folks use respirator masks at all?


Even with a Delta overhead air cleaner and central collection system, I still wear a mask most of the time. That stuff helps keep the overall dust down, but it's still easy enough to get a face full of it on occasion. 

But, having allergies, I may be more sensitive than most.

Rob


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## I Make Mostly Dust (Jan 7, 2010)

I do not wear a mask most of the time. I have an allergy to Western Red Cedar and got really sick once when working with some Spanish Cedar (mahogany family), so I wear a respirator when working with those (mask won't cut it). If someone were to come out with a form-fitting mask that delivers fresh air and does not leave the face all sweaty I would use it. Otherwise, I just can't take 'em for more than a few minutes. But I don't do woodworking for a living, either.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Finally!*

I got around to reading the basics of Dust Collection on Bill Pentz site to Lo and Behold,:blink: it upholds my theory of dust and chip collection being completely different. Most of his research says that fine dust is merely blown through the bags and filter only to reenter the shop, for various technical reasons, like air speed/volume and
inadequate pipe/hose diameter...unless the dust is blown outside the shop. Some of the guys here have started doing that by mounting the blower on the wall, and running a short hose outside....no bags or filters. He claims the DC manufactures have "sold" us small shop owners on underpowered and too small impellers and the use of 4" pipe or hose which greatly affects air speed and volume.
Those of us who have "conditioned" air either heated or cooled may not find that practical. I do have a ceiling exhaust fan as well as a Jet air filtration unit. I also try to collect as much dust at the source as Pentz suggests.
This is a lot of reading but well worth it:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCBasics.cfm


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## Longknife (Oct 25, 2010)

I belive you have done more than most of us, Bill. I tend to agree though that a good portion of the fine dust is "recycled" through filters and dustbags. Put out the lights in your shop and turn on a flashlight and you'll see what I mean. The obvious solution is to blow the air outside but as you said, when it's -20F outside you don't want to blow out any of your cosy shop air. I have considered building in my DC in a compartment with filters on the ventilation openings. 

On the other hand dust doesn't only come from power tools. Also in a shop were you only use hand tools you'll find that layer of fine dust on everything. Downdraft table may be a good idea here too.

I also agree that dust and chips are different things but if you analyse what comes out of a planer you will find a lot of fine dust as well as chips.

Conclusion? Dust colection is difficult.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*yes, fine dc is difficult...maybe impossible?*

I have also suggested the "flashlight test" with the lights out.:laughing:
You probably don't want to know. :no:
He also says that hand tools may be the worst offenders since they often do not come with adequate dust collection. My Dewalt 5" RAS has a port and you must use the perforated hook and loop paper. The best way I've found it to use a very flexible and light weight hose so the weight and stiffness of the hose doesn't steer and contradict your movements. This hose is connected to a shop vac, not a DC.
A large dust hood, connected to the DC open on the bench will also help.
Apparently his research was brought about by a decreasing medical/physical condition, so there were some alarming findings. Also the commercial shops vent their dust outside the facility into bag units where it does less harm. According to him fine dust, any wood dust, is a carcinogen or health hazard and is regulated in the larger shops.

Interesting reading for us "small guys" regardless.
He's an advocate of the cyclone type collectors and has his own design that you can build, but it also requires a 5 HP motor and larger impeller. Most of us probably won't go there. He does say the a short flex hose on a mobile unit that moves from machine to machine is best if you use the "standard 1 1 /2 HP units from Jet and others...2 HP is better.... but who really knows what HP the machine produces? More questions than answers as far as I can tell. 

I wish there were a simple flow meter you could hold up to the collection end of your run and determine what's going on.
Maybe someone has a link or suggestion? :blink: bill


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## Pauley (Jan 21, 2012)

For small shops like mine, approx 15X18 feet, I will be using a Dust Right Vortex (from Rockler.com) connected to a 4 (peak) HP shop vac. I will also use a table top dust collection and a home made dust collection box, for when I am sanding. I could not afford all the high cost items for collecting dust. Most of my tools are very old and have been repaired, or Mickey moused so I can continue to use them.

Author: The Other Casualty Of War


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Interesting idea from Longknife*

Quote:
I have considered building in my DC in a compartment with filters on the ventilation openings. ....

So what about enclosing the DC unit in it's own "box" with a filtered outlet for the exhaust air. One more level of filtration for the air that escapes the cannister or bag before it goes back into the room.... This make a lot of sense to me. It certainly would hurt. The whole box could still be on a mobile platform to be moved around. It need not be 3/4" plywood either, just a frame with 1/4" and the filter window. Maybe worth a try? I know my cannister and drum sealing leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe a wrap of painters tape on each joint? I should do the "flashlight test" and see what going on right there at the DC.  
Pentz claims that the constant cleaning of the cannister filters wears them out...I donno? So the paddles are a self destructing way to get you to buy more cannisters? Clever! 
Again more questions than answers... :laughing: bill


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

PW,aka woodnthings,I'll give Pentz one thing.....he sure put cyclones on the forefront,WRT homeboy shops.And that there is a good thing.Minor critizisim's would be so small as to not be worth much when compared to the overall effect he's had on the subject.Its mainly a velocity thing......and how experience in the field can and does trump theoretical calcs.

But posted to say.....theres other styles of DC systems.They all aren't "cyclones".Its just,IMO....that typical cyclone construction methods(can be rolled at home pretty effectively)and overall "packaged" price of them is the determing factor when wieghing that style vs other styles of collection.

Cheap is good,right?Well,I think so.....just let it be said however,cyclones aren't the "only" way.It IS,the most marketed though.....which is another reason for their price structure(competeing for consumer $$ between makers).Hey,think a Roots style blower would make an efficient rotory air lock?Haha,BW


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## Pauley (Jan 21, 2012)

Ok, so I can't come up with the money for a HF dust Collection system, so I need to ask this.... I have three shop vac's. Two are 2 HP and one is a 4 HP. The 4 HP has an 1 1/4 hose, and one of the 2 HP has a 3 inch hose, and the last one has a 1 1/4 hose. Can I use a Dust Right Vortex with any of these? Am I limited to how long of a hose I can or should use?

Author: The Other Casualty Of War


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*separators "save" filters*

They keep the filters cleaner longer, so I'd use one on the vac with the most expensive filter. Guys here have made their own from PVC fittings and a 5 gal bucket, so consider that first.
Kenbo does a great job of explaining how to here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/forget-dust-deputy-27235/

also: 
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/search.php?searchid=838565


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## diywoodworker (Jul 27, 2011)

We might be getting a Delta dust collector off of a guy on Craigslist. It has a 1 micron filter. Along with that, I think I might set up a box fan with a furnace filter attached to get the remaining dust in an easily replaced, cheap filter.

Info can be found here: http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?1715-cheapest-shop-air-cleaner-around


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*remember this discussion?*

There are some newer products since this thread was started. Super Dust Deputy, Jet Vortex cone and a whole bunch of home built separators that have been tried. A recent thread by Marv is very good: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/oneida-super-dust-deputy-thein-baffle-jet-vortex-cone-etc-49310/

Chips vs fine dust?
Bags vs cannisters?
Separators vs Cyclones?
Pipe size 4" vs 5" vs 6"?
Flex hose vs pipe?
Motor HP 1 1/2 or more?
CFM stated vs actual?
Lots of questions. :blink:


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## daveinjersey (Feb 27, 2013)

Just one other consideration. For a long time, my dust collection system was a broom, which I didn't use as often as I should. Then my plumber suggested that every time my boiler fired, dust was getting sucked up into it and burned with negative effects on the boiler. That's when I broke down and spent the money.


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