# Panels in Oak Doors do not take Stain consistantly



## Elisabeth Olsen (Jun 1, 2017)

I am staining oak doors and different sections of the doors will take the stain differently. Some panels just do not want to take stain and others take it beautiful. These doors were installed raw and were in house a couple years before now. I sanded with 120, raised the grain with water then quick sand with 220 grit. I did wipe with microfiber towel dampened with mineral spirits before I stained. I am using Minwax red mahogany oil base penetrating stain, leaving the stain on still it starts to dry, about 10-15 mins before I wipe excess off. I tried conditioning doors before staining and that only caused the whole door to not absorb stain well. 
What is the problem and what can I do to help?


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## climbon6786 (May 31, 2017)

So they had no stain or finish on them before you started sanding?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sanding oak past 180 grit is probably most of your problem. Using a wood conditioner on oak is another part of the problem. Oak isn't a type of wood that goes blotchy so a wood conditioner shouldn't be used. Still it happens sometimes some boards are more dense than others and resist stain. When that happens you can supplement the color with dyes or toners shading the light wood to even it out with the rest of it. 

Using a dye, that should have been done before any clear coating is applied. Toners can be used between coats. They are available in rattle can. Regardless of what product you use try it on some scrap wood first and make sure the color toner you use goes with the stain well. It's more like using thinned down paint so go easy with it.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

You may be able to use a small rag and apply the stain again only to the light spots. Sometimes several applications are needed to get a more uniform stain. 
In areas that seem too dark, use a small rag with thinner (mineral spirits) to lighten the areas needed. 
Take your time. This may require several attempts.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Some hints to save you from future frustrations in staining. Wood can be highly variable in the way it accepts stains. When using an oil based finishing system there is not much, if anything to be gained by moistening the surface to "raise the grain." Sanding to 220 is a waist of time and effort, 150 works just as well and is faster. P graded paper will produce a more uniform scratch pattern. 
I don't know what you used for "conditioning" but commercially we will wash coat first, sponge sand quickly, very lightly, then stain. You can get fairly good control of the color by wiping more or less forcefully depending on how the stain is taking. It doesn't work well to try and go back over after the stain has dried so if you need to adjust color wait until after the seal coat. That way you can see what it will look like. Toner is just a sealer or finish that has had a little bit of stain or dye added. Work your way up to the correct color by multiple passes. That will allow you to get blended edges. 
Spray finishing makes the process faster and easier but is probably not something the DIYer is likely to have available or the experience to use.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Larry Schweitzer said:


> Some hints to save you from future frustrations in staining. Wood can be highly variable in the way it accepts stains. When using an oil based finishing system there is not much, if anything to be gained by moistening the surface to "raise the grain." Sanding to 220 is a waist of time and effort, 150 works just as well and is faster. P graded paper will produce a more uniform scratch pattern.
> I don't know what you used for "conditioning" but commercially we will wash coat first, sponge sand quickly, very lightly, then stain. You can get fairly good control of the color by wiping more or less forcefully depending on how the stain is taking. It doesn't work well to try and go back over after the stain has dried so if you need to adjust color wait until after the seal coat. That way you can see what it will look like. Toner is just a sealer or finish that has had a little bit of stain or dye added. Work your way up to the correct color by multiple passes. That will allow you to get blended edges.
> Spray finishing makes the process faster and easier but is probably not something the DIYer is likely to have available or the experience to use.


You and I will agree to disagree on some points because I block sand table top finishes to 220 before I stain. But I'm interested in your comment above about the wash coat. Please go into more detail regarding the mix on your wash coat. This is a step I've not tried. Thanks.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The center rails look "stain starved" ....*

 


They must have been a completely different piece of wood to have no appreciable stain penetrate. ... ? I would mask off those two areas and apply additional coats of stain until they are comparable in color and value/darkness. Spraying would be ideal and if you can get a rattle/spray can of fast dry stain, that's what I would do. Just recoat until it looks "right". If polyurethane it must dry thoroughly before a second application. If lacquer it will dry within minutes. Read the can first. :smile3:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Once a stain has been applied and has dried it's counterproductive to add more stain. It will no longer penetrate and left on the surface can interfere with the adhesion of the finish. If more color is needed then a product with a sufficient binder in it is needed so it will adhere to the wood. A gel stain could be used or a toner would work in this situation. Pigment could also be added to what ever finish you are using. The important thing is there is a substance that will bond. Wood stain has a small amount of linseed oil in it which isn't enough to bond to the wood. When dried on the surface wood stain is more like a coating of dirt. It's more pigment than anything.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I did not mean a stain, stain ...*

I meant a varnish stain or fast dry stain like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001THP1SO/ref=psdc_13399701_t1_B0009XB4LW


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I meant a varnish stain or fast dry stain like this:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001THP1SO/ref=psdc_13399701_t1_B0009XB4LW


That would work.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Finishes are ......*

Finishes are part science, part chemistry, part art, and part voodoo,and part experience ....:nerd2:

Ya never know what will happen or why it does what it does, and by then it's often too late. Then folks come here to ask "How do I fix it?"
Then you get a situation like the above when for no apparent reason a piece of wood goes off on it's own and won't react like the rest... and there is no logical explanation. :frown2:

So one person's guess is as good as any other's.


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## Elisabeth Olsen (Jun 1, 2017)

Thank you everyone for you help.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

A wash coat is a diluted sealer, or in our case a diluted top coat. We are a water based finisher. The idea is to get the finish to fill the ends of the pours in the wood but not to create a film on the surface. Of course you do get a surface film when you spray it on, but a very thin one that easily comes off with a very light sanding. The pours in the wood let the coating go down a bit and form a seal that isn't affected by the sanding, if you don't get carried away. The mix, probably varies with the product use but we will mix about 40% finish to 60% water. Using some alcohol can help. The water has very little affect on the wood because the amount you are spraying is minimal. It flashes off quickly. At any rate the goal is to fill most of the pours and not the surface. You can tell how much the porosity affects the taking of stain by looking at a piece of ring porous wood that has been stained. Desirable in some cases but different boards have different amounts of the ends of the pours showing. 

The process, like a lot of finishing, takes practice to get uniformity. Set you gun for a fine mist and move relatively fast. Don't multiple coat or have uneven overlaps. There should never be enough on the surface to give a shine or wet look. 

If on a keep-it-project you still didn't get it as uniform as you like, you can selectively tone. Very dark finishes will come out better by toning. I personally am not much on stained dark, heavily toned finishes. They leave me cold.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

A large part of your problem is construction related. The center panel of the door on the right is a single wide board with a nice "flame" plain slice figure. The panel in the door on the left is made up of 2 boards glued together with more of an almost rift or straight grain figure. They will never match well especially if they are side by side in the same elevation. 

Using a wash coat or a conditioner is an art all to itself, if you get more on certain areas it will stain lighter, less it will stain darker. I would hardly ever use any conditioner or wash coat on oak. It takes stain beautifully just as it is. 

Mohawk Ultra Classic Toner Aerosols would work very well to help even things out if you can't spray. They come in many colors and you can mask off the dark areas and fog a little color on the light areas until you get a match. They are lacquer so they dry really fast.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Elisabeth Olsen said:


> I am staining oak doors and different sections of the doors will take the stain differently. Some panels just do not want to take stain and others take it beautiful. These doors were installed raw and were in house a couple years before now. I sanded with 120, raised the grain with water then quick sand with 220 grit. I did wipe with microfiber towel dampened with mineral spirits before I stained. I am using Minwax red mahogany oil base penetrating stain, leaving the stain on still it starts to dry, about 10-15 mins before I wipe excess off. I tried conditioning doors before staining and that only caused the whole door to not absorb stain well.
> What is the problem and what can I do to help?


Oil based stains do not actually stain the wood. It is made up of sediment that settles in the open pores of wood. That is why some woods accept it better than others, and why sanding with too fine a grit reduces penetration. It is likely that the cross rails are a tighter grain than the other wood pieces, likely from a different board or tree like others have stated. To correct it a gel stain can be used on the lighter area, or a toner. You can purchase toner in a rattle can, or make your own. I prefer to use aniline dyes in shellac. You can also mix some of the stain you used into an oil based top coat and lightly build the effected areas until you get an acceptable match. Then topcoat the entire door with whatever clear you are using.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

B Coll said:


> Oil based stains do not actually stain the wood. It is made up of sediment that settles in the open pores of wood. That is why some woods accept it better than others, and why sanding with too fine a grit reduces penetration. It is likely that the cross rails are a tighter grain than the other wood pieces, likely from a different board or tree like others have stated. To correct it a gel stain can be used on the lighter area, or a toner. You can purchase toner in a rattle can, or make your own. *I prefer to use aniline dyes in shellac.* You can also mix some of the stain you used into an oil based top coat and lightly build the effected areas until you get an acceptable match. Then topcoat the entire door with whatever clear you are using.


I use trans tint in 50% DA and 50% H2O. (Universal paint tint works too) It will work over oil based stain as a "toner". I'm going to say this and I'm sure many people will be haters but....Ask any experienced or professional finisher of their thoughts of oil based stain, particularly minwax. Their comments won't be positive. 

I could be wrong but....I wouldn't advise mixing oil stain with oil poly because the amount of stain (mineral spirits and linseed oil) needed to make a toner that works will greatly affect the chemistry of the poly. (would it ever cure properly?) Maybe water based stain mixed with water based poly may work since I think the bases are more similar.


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