# Board Feet



## RLHERRON (May 15, 2008)

A customer just came in, she has a old barn she wants to sell the siding off of. She wants to know how to figure the board feet? I thought all she would need to know would be the thickness and width and number of running feet. Was I wrong in telling her that was the way to figure the total? How do you figure board feet in a log?


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Bft in lumber is width X length (In inches) X thickness / 144

Example: a 10" board 10' long and 1 1/2 inches thick.

10 X120 X 1.5 = 1800 divided by 144 = 12.5 bft.


For a log it is a little different. First there are 3 industry accepted scales or formulas (Doyle, Scribner and International) and they all give you a different answer. As a buyer I use the Doyle scale. I don't even mess with the formula....there are too many free calculators out there. Here is one http://www.timberbuyer.net/sawlogbf.htm , here is another http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=log_volume

I just keep a chart laminated and handy (in the truck, in the shop, by the phone...) for when I would need it. This is the chart I made up. For logs bigger than are on the chart here is a trick. Go to the log *1/2* its diameter and multiply that number by 4.6 for a close estimate.
Example a 40" x 10' log. I would take the 20" x 10' = 170 bft x 4.6 = 782 (these are close, you usually have overrun on the Doyle scale anyway. Overrun being more lumber than was scaled in the log)


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I use the all-inches like Daren's example almost always. 

But sometimes when you have alot of boards especially long, and you just want to get real close you can also use the nearest foot and round down under 6 inches and anything over round up, and just divide by 12 instaed of 144. You would be suprised how accurate it is. the more boards you have, the more accurate it becomes too (law of averages is more precise the more "averages" you throw in it).

So for a 4"x 9" x 14'5" board you go . . .

4 x 9 x 14/12= 42BF That's a serious stick of wood.

But as I say, I use the all-inches mostly. On smaller orders and expensive wood you have to. But if you are figuring 100 pine boards at $1 or $2 BF you can use the later example if you want to save some time figuring the long inches and are alone running the tape. Of course you can also use a reel tape many of which show cumulative inches.

Best way is to print off that table Daren posted and carry it in your wallet. 

Daren I did not know that 1/2 dia. trick. Cool. :thumbsup:


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## Terry Beeson (May 29, 2008)

Lessee.... naught times naught is... naught... 5 times naught is.... naught... carry the 3.... 4 guzinda 8 two times....

Dang, Daren... You were right!!! 

(Told ya I grad-gee-ated the fifth grade...)


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> Daren I did not know that 1/2 dia. trick. Cool. :thumbsup:


It is _close_, close enough when you are talking logs too big for the mill because of the waste involved. I just figured that out a year or so ago. I noticed a log 2X the size was almost 5X the lumber scaling all the time. So I sat down and 2X all the logs on the chart/calculators and the numbers were 4.5-4.9 as an exponential equation. I picked 4.6 as a fair ballpark.


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## dirtclod (May 7, 2008)

Oh, if you want to get technical about it, then you need to take into account hardwood vs softwood because they are calculated differently. They do some screwed up rounding on hardwood such that 2x4s 8-11' long all result in the same number of board feet. And you need to round up or down on every other board foot. Some of the lumber calculators take this into account, some don't. 

The thing that really matters is if the buyer and the seller agree on how to measure it.


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

I like to use this web site: http://www.buckwoodcraft.com/board_foot_calculator.htm
It keeps a running total and lets you say how many boards of a certain size, but calculates everything under 1", or 4/4, as an actual 1". Quick and easy way to add up multiple width and/or length boards.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

dirtclod said:


> Oh, if you want to get technical about it, then you need to take into account hardwood vs softwood because they are calculated differently.


Yea I forgot to mention that since I mostly (95%) mess with hardwoods. There is a separate "cedar scale" too. If I am not mistaken it is 70% (?) of the chart I posted. Anyone who knows can correct me. I buy/barter for logs in a weird way so these numbers are general reference for me personally. Like you said as long as both parties feel good about the deal, then it is a good deal. :thumbsup:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Yep there's a cedar scale. I have one in my wallet. 

Clod I knew it was just a matter of time before the techie scalers came out and muddied up the fishin hole.  Don't forget, there are more than just doyle, scrib, and int. scales too . . . . .


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## ironhead (Dec 20, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> Yep there's a cedar scale. I have one in my wallet.
> 
> Clod I knew it was just a matter of time before the techie scalers came out and muddied up the fishin hole.  Don't forget, there are more than just doyle, scrib, and int. scales too . . . . .


Hey TT would it be too much to ask you to post a copy of that cedar scale in your pocket?

Got a guy that is willing to sell me standing cedar for a buck a board foot. Is this a good price? Believe it's Eastern Red but not sure. It's what ever grows like mad in western KY.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

So a board foot is really a cubic foot. ie length x breadth x thickness/144.
johnep


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

ironhead said:


> Got a guy that is willing to sell me standing cedar for a buck a board foot. Is this a good price?


Not TT, but $1 bft . Not unless you are desperate, especially since they do grow thick around you...there should be plenty FREE ones that are down/coming down. Cedar is one of the messiest trees to fell and clean into a sawlog with all the limbs. Can you leave that mess for him ? Or do you have to clean it up too ? I can probably give you a list of sawmills in your area that will sell you cedar _lumber_ for not much more than a $1 bft. (maybe less ?)

If you are wanting to scale one if it is at least 16" on the _small_ end (of the log) and 1/2 way straight just take 10% off my chart below. If the logs are small 8"-12" take 20% off. 12"-16" take 15%. I don't mill anything under 8" myself, too much waste.

I know I said in the previous post 70%, that was more of a cover my butt type deal (and you may want to still do that) when dealing in large numbers of logs. Because "on the trailer" like I buy them there may be heart rot/deep furrows/odd shaped logs that will mill funny and other defects I don't see until I have unloaded them and really had a good look.

There is a "cedar log scale formula" that is industry accepted. But you will just have to trust me as a sawyer with much experience milling cedar, my numbers are pretty darn close.

There are always variables when dealing logs that can throw _any_ chart right out the window. I mentioned heart rot, if it is a really big one you can almost count on that. Then there is the amount of sapwood, the red heartwood being the good stuff. The amount of sapwood varies from location to location, even from tree to tree in the same location. Most people throw the sapwood away milling.


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## ironhead (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks Daren. Didn't know if that was a deal or not but it sounded a little high.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

johnep said:


> So a board foot is really a cubic foot. ie length x breadth x thickness/144.
> johnep


Yes, in sawn lumber form. When talking log volume http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/Pb1650.pdf
The math gets a little trickier.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Daren is right. You want to be selling it for a buck a foot and more. I don't even sell it for $1 a BF when I sell it. I don't mess with cedar much except for my own purposes and for a handfull of old codgers who won't stay out of my sawmill lot when they need wood. They are good guys though so I still service them. 

You want to get it free, and like Daren said, where you live you shouldn't have any trouble. All you have to do is ask the right people. "Mr landowner I noticed you have a worse than average cedar infestation. I can remove some of it but not all of it. I am not looking to be paid to remove it, but I don't want to have to pay for the trees either. Would you be interetsed in this if I promise to push the limbs up into a burn pile for you?" 

You will get no's and you will get yesses. Around here I get mostly yesses. Heck I get emails and phone calls from ranchers and farmers now. "You want some cedar Kevin?" I don't even know most of the ones who call. They get my name from cussin and dis-cussin down at the coffee shop about their cedar problem. "Hey there a kid named Kevin north of the lake who takes cedar ......"

I get hardwood the same way. Now one little tip, when you are discussing it with a landowner, use the word "trees" do not use the word "timber" ever. The see dollar signs when they hear "timber". It's like "Oh, I have timber? Where?"

If you do have to buy it, don't buy it by the BF. By it by the ton. Don't pay more than $15 a ton for cedar if you are logging it. If you can get it logged and delivered to your lot, you can afford to pay between $65 - $80 ton if you have a market to turn it quick. I can sell premium cedar sawlogs to a mill about an hour and a half east of me for $100 ton and they never can get enough, but look at the drive I would have and fuel costs. Realistically a guy with a couple of helpers and a rig like mine that can max the 26,000 pound haul limit before a commercial license is required could make $2500 -$3000 a day gross. But you start figuring the 12 - 14 hour days, the fuel, the labor, wear and tear on the equipment (this is an area newbies cannot imagine the extent of), taxes, a worker gets hurt and you did not have insurancse for him, yada yada next thing you know you are working harder than your workers and instead of having fun you are a logging slave. Do I sound like I know what I am talking about from experience? :laughing:

Be careful about this wood thing ironhead. It will suck you right in. :yes:

Oh yeah, the cedar scale. I scanned it in once lemme see if I can find it. . . . . .


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

This is not the one I have in my wallet but it will get you started . . . 










One other thing about cedar, if you figure everything right and your milling is efficient, you should saw out about 200BF per ton. There is a lot of waste with cedar, so you cannot get 250 to 300 feet per ton like you can with pine and good hardwood sawlogs.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

no a board foot is never a cubic foot..a cubic foot is not 144 cubic inches. a cubic foot 1728 cubic inches. A board foot is 12x12x1


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

mics_54 said:


> no a board foot is never a cubic foot..a cubic foot is not 144 cubic inches. a cubic foot 1728 cubic inches. A board foot is 12x12x1


Correct, I agreed with johnep's formula and glossed right over the "cubic foot" part. (I was still trying to wake up, cut me a break)
A cubic foot or 12"X12"x12" would be 12 board feet. To be clear a board foot is width X length X thickness divided by 144 like I said in my first post in this thread, and was repeated so I said yes without even really registering the words cubic foot.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I knew you knew...I was making sure HE knew that a board foot is eqal to 1/12th of a cubic foot.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Sorry guys, still celebrating Christmas etc and got my maths wrong.
Of course a cube is 12 x 12 x 12 and not 12 x 12 x 1".
johnep


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

What I can't figure out is how to figure out a _spherical foot_. :wacko:

Pie are squared? :huh: 

No Gomer, pie are round, cornbread are square. :w00t:


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## dirtclod (May 7, 2008)

ironhead said:


> Hey TT would it be too much to ask you to post a copy of that cedar scale in your pocket?
> 
> Got a guy that is willing to sell me standing cedar for a buck a board foot. Is this a good price? Believe it's Eastern Red but not sure. It's what ever grows like mad in western KY.


I agree with the others. I wouldn't pay for standing cedar. Unless it was exceptional quality and a one-time need or they would have to give it to me for next to nothing. A good straight 20' x 9" small end cedar may be just the ticket for replacing a rotted pole in a barn. I might be willing to pay a .25-50/bf for it, then mill it into a 6x6 and sell it for $1-1.50/bf. (20'er are rare.) But that's a rare need. If they want me to clear it from their land I might have to charge them for it. But good stands I might pay .10-.20/bf. But I never buy logs so my buying advice is suspect.:laughing:

Daren's advice on rot and deep flutes is very good. They can make a big log yield next to nothing. The flute problem is usually concentrated in the first few feet of the log but can run its whole length or skip and show up futher up. Sometimes you can cut above it and sometimes you can still mill some lumber out in a fluted log.

I've noticed lately a few cedar logs that have a punky ring around the heart. It ran from top to bottom. Good situation for a reject. But more commonly is red rot. This will appear hard but blocky to almost sawdust. It appears most often in the biggest of logs. Another type of reject.

I've cut a good bit of cedar over the years. I did'nt use the push-button veg-o-matic machines TT has. :tank: Just the old-fashioned methods. There's just a few things that stand out about felling cedar. It usually grows dense so felling the first trees into an opening can be impractical. So the first/second/third trees simply lean over and hang up. When I was younger I used the "lift the butt and run" method for clearing the snags. This only worked on the smaller trees. Nowadays a tractor assist in this process. I call cedar the tree of 1000 limbs because by the time you clear them all off a tree that's how many it felt like. Then you roll it over only to find you missed a dozen or more on the bottom side. Finally, cedar limbs have a talent for snagging the chain right off your saw. Keep 'er tight.

I do like cedar though. Mill them quick to preserve the whiteness of the sapwood and its contrast to the heartwood.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

dirtclod said:


> I've cut a good bit of cedar over the years. I did'nt use the push-button veg-o-matic machines TT has. :tank: Just the old-fashioned methods.


Hey one thing I can tell you, when I log cedar I sure don't feel like I have any log-o-matic machinery. :laughing:

I also milled with a manual mill for the first 3 years too. I did my share of nut-busting I promise you, and as anyone with a hydraulic mill will tell you, there are times you still have to get down in the trenches and do battle with a stubborn log.



dirtclod said:


> There's just a few things that stand out about felling cedar. . . . the first/second/third trees simply lean over and hang up.


You haven't lived until you log in a thicket of Bois D' Arc all clumped together. You can forget about "felling". In fact when I go to log any I tell my wife "Honey I am going to go lean some bodark." :laughing:

Where I get it, they grow so close together and are so thick, you have to start on the outside and work your way in to ones you want, so you have to fell ones you don't want. Trying to take down a big bodark in the middle of the thicket is highly impractical and certainly dangerous. 

On the cedar, it's much the same way but even big wet cedar is so light compared to big hardwood that the skidsteer will drag/push the butt with ease. On a big bodark that's hung up, I don't even consider using the skidsteer. You get caught on the tree and it will throw the little 6500 pound skidsteer like it's a toy Tonka truck. 

clod that is good advice you gave though. I can relate to finding the limbs on the bottom. A tip that will make it easier on you. Do you limb as far up as you can reach first? I do. I know you aren't suppose to use a saw above chest high but I limb as far up the tree as my blade will reach. Saves a whole lot of work. Especially if you use a 28" bar for that part, you can limb a good portion of the sawlog itself, drop the tree, grab the limbing saw and when you are done the log will roll over much easier because you got the big heavy limbs off before you even dropped the tree. I do not use this method on hardwood trees too dangerous. Cedar is a piece of cake though usually.


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## johnjf0622 (Feb 8, 2008)

I agree with dirtclod. I cut down cedars on a lot we owned and I had to cut 3 trees to get the first one to fall.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

You can always use those small cedar for something too. Corner and fence posts. Log furniture. If you have a lathe, the time, and the inclination you can turn everything from paper towel holders to spindles.


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