# square rimmed bowl question



## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

so, awhile back i turned a smallish square rimmed bowl in which the bowl actually sat on the corners and the bottom of the bowl "floated" here's a picture of the bowl i turned that i'm talking about.








Anyways, i really liked the idea of this bowl and decided i wanted to try this on a much larger scale seeing as this bowl was only 5" wide and a mere 2 inches tall. i had this nice chunk of 12"x4" walnut that i decided to use. i decided to have one of my friends take several pictures while turning the bowl which in turn ended up being the only pictures i have of the neat shape it would have been. I was trying to turn the very inside corner on the bottom where leg meets bowl and i had the detail gouge catch, bringing it into the path of the square legs, ripping off 2 legs before breaking the chisel itself. yes i broke the chisel, apparently it didn't have the copper banding around the neck like it should have, after reveiwing what happened, it appeared that the tool rest was also to far from where i was cutting in addition to the chisel not having the banding. here's a picture of the bowl i was turning as well as the "after" picture. you can also see where the gouge caught.
























i have to admit this did get my heart going quite a bit, especially seeing the chisel fly past me. thankfully i was wearing my mask anyways. So, now that you know the story, i want to try this again, i'm wondering if theres a better approach to what i'm trying to acheive here, is there a way i can get that tool rest in closer without having to have a really steep angle to it? also what might be a better tool for getting that inside edge where square meets round?
any suggestions are greatly appreciated. 
thanks, tyler


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## slatron25 (Dec 18, 2007)

That's a tough cut to make. First off a detail gouge has no business 
hanging over the tool rest that far. 
I use a finger nail ground bowl gouge for that stuff. 
Look at how you were making the cut. Did the wing catch?
I usually make those cuts with the side tip of the gouge. 
There is so much going on in there that you really have to watch everything. 

I'm glad you were wearing your safety gear and you are ok but a detail gouge
isn't the tool to be hanging way out there like that.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

thanks for the input. for the bulk of the inside there, i used a fingernail ground bowl gouge. but for that far inside corner the gouge didn't quite come to a point quite enough to get a clean sloping cut since it's so tiny of a space. this is where i thought the detail gouge would come in handy. what i was doing was going in from the legs to the point and then going in from the bowl to the point, when it caught, i was going from the legs inwards and just moved the wrong way and i'm pretty sure the wing went into the bowl, if that makes sense. so perhaps the next time i try this i should make it so it doesn't come to quite a point so i can use the fingernail gouge? another question would be, is it safe to have the fingernail gouge hanging off the tool rest that far? thanks again for the input, while i've turned out a good number of bowls, i'm still fairly new to turning and learning about tricky situations.


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## slatron25 (Dec 18, 2007)

Maybe a smaller bowl gouge. That cut is fun because you have to watch out for the legs and the wing of the gouge catching the bowl side of the turning. Especially when your start getting down into that transition I tend to work it from both sides. I've had some pucker moments in there as well. Maybe just one of those learning moments and just proceed with a little more caution.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

ok thanks


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

It depends on the detail gouge. The Thompson detail gouge will hang out further than the bowl gouge. It has a lot of steel. 
The cut you are trying to do has a problem right at the bottom. That's what we call a transition area. I don't know if I can describe the solution but will try.  When you are turning with the bowl gouge you usually have the flute about 45 degrees. This means that the lower wing is up off the tool rest. As you go into the transition area cutting from the wing of the bowl in the bowl portion can catch this lower wing and give you a catch. What I do is rotate the flute clockwise so the flute is facing the bowl portion and the wing is now down on the tool rest. Now it can't catch when it hits the bowl because it is just scraping and is supported by the tool rest. 
To blend the bowl curve and the wing curve together you can start cutting on the wing. As you get to the transition area rotate the gouge to the position I mentioned. Then as it hits the bowl just use that lower wing as a scraper and blend the curve. 
Another way to do this is to have a sharp V at the juncture of the bowl and wing. To do this (and your detail gouge will work if it doesn't chatter too much from hanging over the rest that far) Just push the tool in while cutting the wing. You should still rotate the flute so it points directly at the bowl to avoid a catch when you get to the bottom of the V. Stop at the bottom. Now go to the bowl side and do the same cut with the flute pointing toward the wing. Again stop as soon as you get to the bottom of the V. 
For a soft curve at the bottom I prefer to use the Hunter carbide tools. but that's a whole different cutting technique. ONe of these days before long I need to make another video showing how I use the Hunter tool to cut undercut lips on the inside and outside of bowls and also to do the undercut winged bowls like you are doing.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

John, thanks for the input, i think i do understand what you are saying, go from regular bowl gouging and turn it so it becomes a scraper, would you say the angle of scraping is roughly 80 degrees or somewhere around there? I think i was going into that corner with the gouge flute at 45 and that being what caught, that right-hand wing. i will have to look around at different chisels and see if there's a stronger detail gouge or larger one at that. again thanks for the input


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Here is a video I found that shows the gouge in use is a somewhat similar situation. Notice how the bottom lip of the gouge is used as a scraper on the center part of the vessel. This orientation is what is what keeps the gouge from catching. It's also handy to use as a scraper to remove tool marks.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

john, thanks alot for that video. it helped understand the process alot. i will have to expieriment with this a little. thanks again


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Very cool bowl!, size your pics, and the text wont run off the screen. :smile:


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

thanks. and what do you mean size my pictures? they're a little big on my screen but the text is all in the screen. is it different for you?


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

tymann09 said:


> thanks. and what do you mean size my pictures? they're a little big on my screen but the text is all in the screen. is it different for you?


 

Yep!

Maybe it's just me... We'll see what others say. :smile:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Tyler,
resize your pics to 640 x 80 and they will come up a nice size on the screen without being too big for a laptop. You might want to try a different toolrest to get in closer to the underside of those wings. The less you overhang in a situation like that the better. And watch your fingers, you probably already know that. 
Whenever you are doing a turning like that, with fingercatchers, you really have to concentrate on everything you are doing. No daydreaming at all. Where I run into trouble on inside cuts is pulling the tool away from the piece as I am finishing the cut. I don't always pay attention and the tool catches on the way out after I am done with the cut. Totally preventable. Good luck on the next one.
Mike Hawkins


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

thanks mike. i decided to give it a try and edited the post and changed the picture size. let me know if it looks better for you guys. and yea i learned to keep my fingers away very early in the game :thumbsup: I've got access to a straight tool rest and an S toolrest as well as the one you see in the picture, perhaps the S one will work better. i'm hoping to try this technique again once i can afford a decent sized blank.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes on the picture edit. Now I can see the whole thing without scrolling back and forth. Thanks. 
As far as the blank goes, do you have any logging services nearby that cut their own logs and process the wood from there? We have one about 45 minutes from my house that offers large blanks of domestic varieties for very reasonable prices.
Mike Hawkins


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike, there is actually a good sized lumber mill less than 5 minutes from my moms house where i go often. i don't recall them selling any types of blanks but perhaps i should check in with them and they could hook me up :thumbsup:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Ty,
The lumber mill would be worth checking into. Sometimes they don't realize what people like us want. Also, if they are processing the whole trees, ask about crotch wood from the base of a tree. Most of the time, they don't really want it. Makes for some pretty interesting blanks. And don't forget the burls. When you approach them, think of those pieces as scrap parts of the trees. The last thing you want to do is start drooling over the burls. Also, if they end up treating you pretty well, it goes a long way if you turn a couple of nice pieces from the wood you get from them and give them to the owner as gifts for display. 
Mike Hawkins


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## Bill Wyko (Feb 25, 2011)

A little trick I do on square turnings is I put neon green tape around the outside edge. It helps make the invisible corners become visible. Aside from that, very nice work. Good luck on the next attempt.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Mike,
Thanks a ton for that advice, i'm feelin really motivated to go down there and see if i can get some wood:thumbsup: they are generally nice folk as well. maybe i'll stop there in the morning seeing that they're open for a few hrs. i'll let you know how i make out either way.

Bill,
That's an interesting method that i can actually see working pretty well, i'll have to give that a try. thanks.


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## fischer18 (Mar 6, 2011)

Another question to add to this, I just tried my first square rimmed bowl yesterday (a real simple one, where the wings go out at a 90 deg angle from the bowl top and do not curve down like yours) but am having a problem with it minorly chipping out along the wings where I make my cut across the grain. What might I be doing wrong and also, is there someway I can cover up the mistake to at least make it a good looking bowl?


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Fischer,
I find that when doing square rimmed bowls, the higher the rpms the cleaner the cut, typically i use both head and tailstock while doing the square section of a bowl, this gives it the stability and then i freshly sharpen my tools, the sharper the better. and turn the rpms up way high, but not so high it's vibrating the lathe. the more centered the blank is the higher the rpms can go. take very very light passes, this helps alot too. a good trick to fixing the mistakes/tearout i find is to give the edges a roundover, it still produces a nice look, this goes for the corners as well you can round them so it's not a point and it'll still look nice. If that doesn't work get creative, take a grinder with a wirebrush and just do the rim or something. hope this helps. if all else fails, put it back on the lathe and get rid of the square edge. that's what i did with the one i broke, turned it into a salad bowl.:thumbsup:


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## fischer18 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks Tymann, that worked out really well just rounding off the edges, since the gouges were not deep at all. Looking from afar you can't even tell. Really appreciate the advice and will try next time a little higher speed when working those nasty wings.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

glad it worked out for you. not a problem at all.


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## Dave Pannell (Jan 17, 2011)

a homemade oland type tool works great for undercutting stuff. It's just a small scraper tip sticking out of a beefy steel bar. I've found that not having to ride a bevel while on an uneven surface is way easier. Not to mention the tool angle required for the cuts disappears. You can just go straight in if u want. Of course, the finish isn't as good as a gouge, but due to being able to make the cut with a more comfortable tool angle, you have more control and there's a much smaller chance of a catch. 

Good luck next time!


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