# Sharpening on a Belt Sander



## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

Okay, so I've taken the plunge and bought a Delta 46-460 to replace my old Menards Shop Tool tube lathe. I've turned a few small things on it, but now I want to move into something bigger. I've been in awe of the segmented turners here and it's hopefully my next step. But, that step requires a lot of additional equipment. Off the top of my head, I'll need a nice miter gauge for my saw, a chuck (but I can do the faceplate thing to start out) and better turning tools. I've been looking at all the opinions and I'm still not sure if I want to pop for a high end Sorby bowl gouge (or similar) or an intermediate like Benjamins Best and then get the better tool after I've learned a bit. But, the one thing that seems essential, whether I go for the high end or the stop gap tool, is a jig to sharpen the fingernail grind on the gouge. That brings me to my next quandry and a few questions...

I've been watching video after video on sharpening bowl gouges. From Capt. Eddie to the esteemed Mr. Lucas here. I've been searching the internet for plans to make a Wolverine style jig. I'm getting a pretty good idea of the geometry of sharpening a gouge and I can see where an 8" grinder to replace me 6" grinder would give a better bevel with a smaller chance of catching the tool on the smaller radius of the 6" wheel. But, there's more money for the grinder, plus a higher end fine grit wheel, plus a reliable method for dressing the wheel and a way of referencing the wheel to the tool pocket on the arm as the wheel gets smaller (although John Lucas' cut-outs look like simple genius)

But then the tought occurs to me as I see the variable speed bench top belt sander sitting in the corner. Why can't a bowl gouge be sharpened on a belt sander? My inner engineer voice starts to note that once a fixed point is established for the tool sadle, the distance to the belt table will never change. It's got to be easier than trying to hit the tangent point on the wheel every time. Plus, there's no radius to the bevel cut as on a bevel ground on a wheel (not that the small radius from the gringing wheel is significant). Belts come in a variety of grits, probably finer than a high end grinding wheel. Belts don't need to be dressed, just replaced. I figured I could work out the geometry in AutoCAD using any of the shop mage Wolverine jigs as a staring point.

So I did a search on this site and found nothing regarding it. I did a search on the internet and could find very little regarding it. I have to ask the more experienced turners... Is there a reason why people don't use a belt sander? It seems like such a simple idea that there would have to be something I'm missing that would invalidate all my thoughts. Can some of you experienced sharpeners weigh in on this?

Thanks in advance.


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## knika (Jan 15, 2012)

That is how I sharpen my tools. I use a 320 grit belt designed for metal. I forget the name of the compound but if you want it I will get the info for you. A friend of mine who makes knives told me what belt to get and he said to use a sander that turns real slow. I think that mine turns about 1750 and he said 50-80 rpm would be the best. With sharpening you just want to refinish the edge and remove as little material as possible. I feel a 80 grit grinder wheel takes too much material off and produces too much heat. A slow speed and a fine grit produces a very sharp edge for me.

Jack


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## dmh (Sep 18, 2010)

broma, It sounds like you may have just about all you need to get started. Have a look at this thread. I've done a few more since then and still basically use the same things I showed in that build. With segmented stuff I prefer using a faceplate and a wastes block. (In fact I've picked up a couple more and that made life a little easier.) I wouldn't mind trying a nice miter gage but haven't since I'm not sure if I would get any better results. (if you have any questions on setting up the sled let me know) I do have a nice bowl gouge but I put it on the other side of the shop when I do segmented stuff. I'm not that good with it yet and too chicken to take it to something I have that much time in. :laughing:

And here is an article on making a sharpening set up like the Ellsworth's system. I made mine out of metal but if i had it to do over again I think I would just buy a setup.

Have you seen this video on sharpening with a belt sander?


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

A sled is definitely the way to go for segmented turning although I would strongly suggest getting Malcolm Tibbets book on segmented turning. Amazon.com: The Art of Segmented Wood Turning: A Step-by-Step Guide (9780941936866): Malcolm Tibbetts: Books
Malcolm covers the topic so well why re invent the wheel.
You don't need an 8" grinder. Just about any grinder will work as well as belt sanders. I have used my 3" belt sander. If you do that remove the cloth dust collector bag or you'll have one that looks like swiss cheese. Don't ask how I know that. The one inch strip sanders will work but you have to remove the table. 
Most sanders turn the wrong direction and come down toward the blade. You want it running the other way. Sometimes you can just use the backside or in the case of my hand held sander just turn it around. 
Disc sanders also work well. They have the advantage of changing the surface speed simply by working on different parts of the wheel. Very handy if you still have some old carbon steel tools. The downside is it's harder to change the discs. 
Jigs are easy to build if your any good at wood at all. I've made several. After I purchesed the Oneway jig I realize how much better it worked. It just stays where you put it and locks down very easily.


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## dmh (Sep 18, 2010)

Yes! I'm glad John brought that up. If your interested in segmented turning definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY, get Malcolm Tibbets book. I have it sitting here beside me. It's a great read and I look back through it all the time. Very well written and easy to understand. Nice pictures too.:yes:


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## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

knika said:


> That is how I sharpen my tools. I use a 320 grit belt designed for metal. I forget the name of the compound but if you want it I will get the info for you. Jack


If you could find out what material to use, that would be great. Thanks.


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## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

dmh said:


> broma, It sounds like you may have just about all you need to get started. Have a look at this thread.


I saw that thread back in January and, honestly, it's the thread that really got me into wanting to start segmented turning. As far as I'm concerned, it's the gold standard of segmented build threads. I even posted in it on the second page because I had been trying to picture how to sand the rings flat and your post about the sanding disc confirmed an idea I had been noodling.




dmh said:


> I wouldn't mind trying a nice miter gage but haven't since I'm not sure if I would get any better results. (if you have any questions on setting up the sled let me know)


I have a DeWalt sliding miter saw and tried cutting an eight segment ring for a plate holder I was making. Even using the predefined stop for 22.5 degrees, there was enough error in the saw that I don't think I'd trust it for segment cutting. I had been eyeing an Incra 1000 miter gauge, but I may have to look into a dedicated sled.



dmh said:


> And here is an article on making a sharpening set up like the Ellsworth's system. I made mine out of metal but if i had it to do over again I think I would just buy a setup.


I grabbed that article a while back, printed it out and it's in my shop. That's probably the setup I'll make, but with a few mods to it.



dmh said:


> Have you seen this video on sharpening with a belt sander? video


I missed that one and when I did another YouTube search, it still didn't come up. Essentially, he did exactly what I was thinking about. I'm concerned about his comment saying it was "almost as good" or something to that effect. It looked like a good grind to me and I can't help but think that the geometry of the setup should be the same.

Thanks for your response and thanks for the build thread. I have it in my favorites menu.


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## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

john lucas said:


> A sled is definitely the way to go for segmented turning although I would strongly suggest getting Malcolm Tibbets book on segmented turning. Amazon.com: The Art of Segmented Wood Turning: A Step-by-Step Guide (9780941936866): Malcolm Tibbetts: Books
> Malcolm covers the topic so well why re invent the wheel.


Thanks. That looks like a good book. I like the response to the one negative review saying it wasn't what he expected and the commenter asked what he was expecting, a guide to cutting pizza? I'll add it to my wish list.



john lucas said:


> You don't need an 8" grinder. Just about any grinder will work as well as belt sanders. I have used my 3" belt sander. If you do that remove the cloth dust collector bag or you'll have one that looks like swiss cheese. Don't ask how I know that. The one inch strip sanders will work but you have to remove the table.
> Most sanders turn the wrong direction and come down toward the blade. You want it running the other way. Sometimes you can just use the backside or in the case of my hand held sander just turn it around.


Good to hear my 6" grinder will work. I'm not sure what you mean about the sander coming towards the blade. Isn't that what you'd want, just like a wheel comes over the top and down towards the blade. Or, would it be better to sharpen in the opposite direction and have the belt moving away from you (in the direction from the handle towards the tip)?



john lucas said:


> Jigs are easy to build if your any good at wood at all. I've made several. After I purchesed the Oneway jig I realize how much better it worked. It just stays where you put it and locks down very easily.


I would love to buy the proper jig. Like many, I'm trying to balance out the desire to have everything now with the reality of paying for them. Your video with the jig and the cut-outs to reference the saddle to the face of the wheel makes it all look simple and I'd love to get that adjustable jig instead of making multiple shop jigs. The problem is I just dropped six bills for the lathe and I have the wife convinced that a nice chuck and some better chisels would suit me nicely. Tacking on jigs, grinders, wheels, etc might go over like a lead balloon. As they say...Happy wife, happy life.:laughing: But, maybe I'll just buy the bowl grinder jig and use it on whatever grinder/sander I end up using. Thanks for the advice.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

The blue ceramic belts work great for metal however I've sanded and shaped a lot of metal using the standard brown belts sold for wood working. They dull faster. The blue belts last a long time. 
The problem with the belt spinning down toward the blade is the blade can pick up the belt and cut it apart. If the belt is spinning up from the heel of the bevel toward the tip this can't happen. It won't happen with a grinding wheel because the tool can only dig into the wheel if you let the tool get too close to the center line of the wheel, then it might slam the tool down and damage your tool and grind stone. Keep the tool up about 10 to 11 oclock on the wheel and your fine. I've sharpened tools with the belt coming down. It does work it's just not worth the risk if you can do it another way.


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## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

john lucas said:


> The blue ceramic belts work great for metal however I've sanded and shaped a lot of metal using the standard brown belts sold for wood working. They dull faster. The blue belts last a long time.
> The problem with the belt spinning down toward the blade is the blade can pick up the belt and cut it apart. If the belt is spinning up from the heel of the bevel toward the tip this can't happen. It won't happen with a grinding wheel because the tool can only dig into the wheel if you let the tool get too close to the center line of the wheel, then it might slam the tool down and damage your tool and grind stone. Keep the tool up about 10 to 11 oclock on the wheel and your fine. I've sharpened tools with the belt coming down. It does work it's just not worth the risk if you can do it another way.


I hadn't thought about the tool catching the belt and ripping into it. Good point. That might be a point in favor of the 1" wide belt sander because most seem to have a short backing bed behind the belt where it meets the table, but near the top, there's some give. Plus, I can sharpen my kitchen knives for my other hobby, cooking.

If you set the jig up on the other end so the belt is going away, will that leave a small burr at the cutting edge that needs to be honed away?


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## knika (Jan 15, 2012)

Theobroma,

I use a Klingspor 4" x 36" Alumina Zirconia belt and I have never had a ketch. I may be lucky or it is not my time yet, but either way I believe that it is in the presentation of the tool to the belt. I do all of my tools on the same belt sander. I use the Eddie Castelin home made Elworth grind holder and it makes a beautiful edge.
Good luck and happy turning.

Jack


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## Theobroma (Nov 19, 2011)

knika said:


> Theobroma,
> 
> I use a Klingspor 4" x 36" Alumina Zirconia belt and I have never had a ketch. I may be lucky or it is not my time yet, but either way I believe that it is in the presentation of the tool to the belt. I do all of my tools on the same belt sander. I use the Eddie Castelin home made Elworth grind holder and it makes a beautiful edge.
> Good luck and happy turning.
> ...


Thanks for the info.


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