# Am j priced to high?



## Cwilkerson26 (Jan 16, 2018)

Hi all, I did a bid for built in's around a fire place and got ran out of the customers house "for being way over priced and trying to scam them", it's 2 book cases 10' tall, 6' wide, and 20" deep each, bottom 3 feet is cabinets, both have crown moulding, and they would be built with veneer ply carcass and hardwood face and doors, all with white enamel finish, and both have led lighting on every shelf, I bid $13,250 and thought that was fair, is that a ripoff? Any help is extremely appreciated


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Prices vary a lot around the country but I would have bid that for about half what you did.


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## Cwilkerson26 (Jan 16, 2018)

*Steve neul*

Well I'm in st.louis, is that what you'd price it for your cost to you or for the cost to a customer when you need to make profit margins?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I also think people go to a place like Ikea and see the particle board crap there, and sometimes are under the impression that the price should closer to that.

How much would the materials be for that job, and how many hours of work were you estimating?


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## gj13us (Apr 19, 2016)

We wanted a reception desk for the front of our office and a local furniture maker worked with us on the design. It would've been beautiful, but came with a +$7,000 price tag. Way more than we could justify spending. The big box office furniture companies can ship us an adequate desk for less than $2,000. 

Granted, the office furniture companies don't produce quality anywhere close to what a self-employed craftsman can, but there are realities of $$$. 

As for your clients, @Cwilkerson26, what's their house look like? Are they living like people who can afford a $13,000 built in?


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## Cwilkerson26 (Jan 16, 2018)

About 1100 for materials, about 12 days worth of work, and about the same price for painting as materials


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## Cwilkerson26 (Jan 16, 2018)

And yeah they're definitely living like they can afford it


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## Ron_J (Sep 22, 2014)

My two cents...it sounds like you are asking top dollar, maybe boarder line unreasonable depending on one's point of view. Is your work worth it...maybe? If I'm going to pay someone "expert, best in the business" money, I want someone with an outstanding reputation and several recommendations.

Are you too high? Hard to say without knowing what kind of work you do.


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

So you are saying this is $1100 materials, $1100 painting(is that materials only?), and 96 hours of shop/install time?

If so you are charging $115 an hour, only you can decide if that covers all of your expenses and provides a profit, from the outside not knowing your overhead that seems really high to me.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I’ve had a tendency to bid things too cheap. I’ve under estimated the time required on several projects. 
I look at most things thinking it will be easier than they turn out. Because of this, I always stayed plenty busy but sometimes cut myself short on profit. If you bid too high, you also cut yourself out of profit because you get very few jobs and very few referrals. 
The project you show is paint grade. That will bring material cost down. 
In today’s market my guess for a job like that, delivered in 4 sections (2 lower and 2 upper units), I would estimate one full week for completion. 
If I figure the hours, materials, any additional help needed and come up with a quote that would be closer to $6,000. 
I’m in Texas. I’m sure the price would be much more if in New York.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Cwilkerson26 said:


> Well I'm in st.louis, is that what you'd price it for your cost to you or for the cost to a customer when you need to make profit margins?


I've had my own woodworking business in the Dallas area since 1985. While I make a profit I've got my overhead lower than most. I work by myself and I have my own shop on my own land. Still, I get under bid from other shops in the area.

I think the estimate for the materials is about right. I think I could do those two cabinets including painting in eight to ten days. I charge $45.00 an hour so the labor would come to $3600.00 plus a day for delivery, $360.00. That comes to $5060.00 for the two cabinets. 

If you were doing those cabinets you would have to put a center divider in it and put a wide strip of wood on the front edge. You can't make 6' long shelves without it sagging. I try not to make a shelf longer than 30".


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Cwilkerson26 said:


> And yeah they're definitely living like they can afford it


This is your problem, they think they should be paid top buck and a lowly craftsman should work for $7.25 per hour

I made my way in HVAC/R, and the best money I ever made was buy fixing antique well not really antique, just real old equipment no one else would work on. One time I gave a lawyer a bill and he about exploded, he screamed I charged as much as he did, I told him fine find someone else to fix your 40 year old chiller he said I can't find anybody else, I told him to pony up $350 per hour or $2,000,000 for a new chiller

He paid me


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Cwilkerson26 said:


> And yeah they're definitely living like they can afford it


I worked for some very exclusive, high income clients when I had my woodworking business. Many of them lived in private gated areas that only had 4 or 5 homes, each on 10+ acres and each doctors, lawyers, business owners with homes in the 6,000 to 10,000 sq. ft. range, with live-in housekeepers or nannies, etc. and there were several of these 'little' gated areas, some with guard protected access. I did work for each and every one of these people whether it was restorations, refinishing, or building custom furniture didn't matter - I got the call.

On a delivery trip after some extensive work for one of them the doctor told me that he really appreciated my pricing and work ethic. I thanked him and kept doing my job but he continued adding that every other contractor or worker that goes through the gate automatically adds 25% to 50% to a job because the people inside the gate can afford it. He said, "One reason you get all of our work and others like us, besides doing really nice work, is that your price is the same for me as it is for someone across town living in an apartment. You don't jack the price because we can afford it and we all know that."

I have never forgotten his message. I priced the job based on your requirements, not by where you live or what you drive or what your W-2 was last year.

David


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

And then there was the time a snooty banks CFO paid $9995 for a big blue wire nut, it would have been more, but I was feeling in a good mood that day:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

What I found is many folks don't really understand what goes in to making custom pieces. Their cost basis is on what they see in the big box stores, that is not custom built, it is mass manufactured, no comparison.

Unfortunately Craftsmen aren't always sales people. We get focused on designing the item, and producing the bid, and completely miss some crucial discussions with the client, such as "what is your anticipated budget" for this project? What are your must haves, and what are your would likes? Are you working with anyone else? The list goes on and on. I NEVER base a quote on my perception of their wealth, or lack of. For the price you quoted you should have provided a whole lot more than a hand drawn drawing. For $13K it should have been on a tablet, with a virtual walk through of what it would look like...

While I think Steve's hourly rate is low, it sounds like his overhead is low, but it still is likely close to 30% for taxes(15% just for SS/MC), insurance, etc, so he is only making $30 an hour. I think his hours are closer to correct for the project, and I actually do believe 6' shelves are OK as long as they are properly constructed. Those doors on the other hand are going to be really wide!


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

Several years ago, I tried to get estimates for some work here at my house. Of the 10 contractors I called, only 6 actually showed up and only 4 gave me estimates. Of the estimates, the highest one was from a guy that showed up in t-shirt and cut offs driving a 20 yr old station wagon. Another estimate was a little below that and the guy could not be reached when I had a question about his estimate. The low bid was so low I discounted it immediately. The last guy was a Mexican fellow. He wore a uniform of the company he worked for. The first things he showed me were the worker's comp insurance certificate and a letter from an insurance company that the company & employees were bonded. He drove a late model truck that was clean and well organized inside and had the name of the company painted on the truck. (Turns out he is the owner, but I did not know that until after the third job he did for us.) His employees were neat and clean, they were very professional I guess my point is sometimes, appearances and salesmanship make a difference


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## Dan Gal (Sep 17, 2013)

Catpower Regarding the lawyer: " One time I gave a lawyer a bill and he about exploded, he screamed I charged as much as he did, " You should have told him that you didn't charge that much when you were a lawyer either.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm not here to tell you if your too high or not......only you know your overhead and expenses

I will say there's many here that are too cheap for their workmanship/craftsmanship (NOT ALL as a few are overpriced for their lack of craftsmanship). Some price to be cheaper, some price at what they're satisfied calling a income, others know what and where their pricing can be according to their geograghic location .

I'm at the top price wise of my area BUT less than most craftsman 50 miles west of me. I don't price according to whom you are, where you live, what your income or anything else including family or friends ( I run a business, I Bless whom the LORD says to NOT according to whom you're relationship in my life).......I have a price to achieve and after that is profit... I actually have less lower income clients complain than the "ones that can afford it"( most of them have been ripped off in times past)....I find my clients are concerned about the quality and long term life of project....YES I loose some jobs BUT I actually didn't gain a headache as I do price for them.....TOO much TV shows that leave out all the important time consuming steps, I've heard the "ALL you got to do IS...." statement a few times....THAT is a redflag to watchout, they "know" more than you....there WILL be headaches!!!

I'm at the crossroads of changing from by the hour (as I've done 95% of my business ALL these years) to full bids not estimates. I'm seeing when you tell a person what you charge per hour MOST automatically get upset as they don't make that in a by the hour factory job....THEY don't understand the cost of doing business AND consider it ALL PROFIT......

OOOppppss sorry!!!! I'll get off my box. It's all up to you and your craftsmanship....with some business sense as to what you can or can NOT charge. YEEEEEPPP !!!! I've been told the same as you....maybe I was or wasn't......BUT several times I went back to do the repairs of what they could re-afford to correct....it costs about 3 times to redo.. ...tear it out.... correct problem....put it back right!!! Some still don't like that cost either!!!

Good day :vs_cool: :vs_cool:


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## craigwbryant (Jan 22, 2012)

shoot summ said:


> So you are saying this is $1100 materials, $1100 painting(is that materials only?), and 96 hours of shop/install time?
> 
> If so you are charging $115 an hour, only you can decide if that covers all of your expenses and provides a profit, from the outside not knowing your overhead that seems really high to me.


Have you been charging this same $115/hr rate for all of your other jobs? If you have, and your market is supporting that as the going rate, then you're in line. 

I will say that just on the surface $115 an hour seems really high. Even if we're saying that you're overhead is 50% of that and the other 50% of that is essentially your salary (assuming your not paying employees), you'd be making a salary of about $110,000 on an annual basis. That's a pretty healthy salary in just about any locale of America.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

For lower Fairfield County Connecticut...double your price.

If your have a good standing in traditional high-end woodworking...add 20%...and your still reasonable for that market...20% more if you have an established name that is or will be collected.

For example I did a "home to barn conversion" over 10 years ago for the Owner of a well known restaurant in your area...That price is just about perfect for his home and what he would want in it (minus the white enamel...ick!!!...ha, ha...I would charge double for that if a client wanted me to do it...!!!...especially on real wood)

All in all, you set your price depending on market, and your own "self worth," and that of the item itself. My work does not depreciate...Does yours? That's my rule of thumb...

I never ever charge someone more than the collective income of the household...on average...as I can either ascertain or by direct question.

In other words, I will facilitate a price for a customer to fit there budget if I can possibly do it. I don't (and never have!!) worked by the hour. I work by market standard. Myself worth, and that of my work, but I will take on clients...I like...that may have only a limited budget. My general pricing of product is relatively transparent, and if a client doesn't like it...??...Then I really don't want to work for them anyway...They and fate have done you a gracious favor.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

holtzdreher said:


> Several years ago, I tried to get estimates for some work here at my house. Of the 10 contractors I called, only 6 actually showed up and only 4 gave me estimates. Of the estimates, the highest one was from a guy that showed up in t-shirt and cut offs driving a 20 yr old station wagon. Another estimate was a little below that and the guy could not be reached when I had a question about his estimate. The low bid was so low I discounted it immediately. The last guy was a Mexican fellow. He wore a uniform of the company he worked for. The first things he showed me were the worker's comp insurance certificate and a letter from an insurance company that the company & employees were bonded. He drove a late model truck that was clean and well organized inside and had the name of the company painted on the truck. (Turns out he is the owner, but I did not know that until after the third job he did for us.) His employees were neat and clean, they were very professional I guess my point is sometimes, appearances and salesmanship make a difference


A very astute observation and wise methodology in your contractor selection. 

"I guess my point is sometimes, appearances and salesmanship make a difference." I think that they make a difference more than just sometimes.

George


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## Johnnie_dr (Apr 16, 2016)

Bottom line to me is...what is the quality of your work !!

I'm a retired guy, who has been doing furniture making for 10yrs or so, although not as a living. I make pieces for family and friends, most of which don't have any idea of what materials cost, as well as how much time and heart I put into my work. In the end, they all appreciate the pieces I do for them, as they are unique and hand-made (as opposed to Ikea or Joe's discount furniture mart)

So the relevance of whether you charge $500 or $15,000 does not mean much unless the quality of craftsmanship is there to warrant the fees asked.

J.


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

Some contractors' work rises to the level of art. A local custom furniture guy that I know, has made $8,000 desks for people. He has a reputation and has made some fancy replicas of museum pieces for folks. I don't think he has handled a 2x4 or plywood since he was in high school. He did a fancy formal library for a rich family about 10 years ago. I saw pictures of the solid walnut shelves and paneling when it was done. That one job took him 11 months of long hours and I know when the job was finished he took his family to Florida for a month. Another guy down the road a mile is an artist. He made a giant red aluminum heart for some public building out west. He got $14 million for it. He is commissioned to do such works a few times a year. To me the artist and the furniture maker are in a similar class. Folks clamor for their work and they are truly in a group above the rest. Then there is the mechanical parts of trades. Installing siding, windows, etc. Carpenters and some furniture makers fall into the mechanical side of it. visited a chair factory last week. Nice chairs, a style that doesn't appeal to me. They sell perhaps 50 chairs a week. All solid wood. Just knocking off parts from jigs and assembling the parts. No artistry, just mechanical.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

In woodworking I am at the other end of the spectrum, I do most for nothing or sometimes I cover the price of materials, but I just do it for fun. Everybody used to tell me I should build furniture for a living, I told them I did it for fun, if I HAD to do it it would no longer be fun


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I was always told that if I wanted the big money to change my shop to a studio.

Your bid was too high for the customer, that is all that matters if you think your estimate was fair and you have got other contracts using the same criteria with previous customers.


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## Richard L (Apr 13, 2018)

*being high is NOT scamming*

They asked for the cost on an item, you offered the item for a price, they did not like the price and declined.


You can buy a brand new 1911 for just over 400 bucks or you can get a springer emp for about 1200, a kimber for about 2k or even an svi for around 4500. those are production items and cost, not custom. Once you go custom, the price has no limits.


Fewer high end clients or lots of low end clients, you have to pick and take your lumps for the decision on your own. 80/20 rule applies to cabinets too.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I’m reminded of the old story of buying oats. 
Good, clean, high quality oats are sold at market price. 
If you will accept oats that have already passed through the horse, now that will come cheaper.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The bid is too high. I do an entertainment center and book case o each side of a fireplace for a 3rd of what your charging and I'm 4 hrs away...


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## danrush (Oct 16, 2017)

The price was too high for that customer. The real question is if you are using the same price structure for other quotes, are you selling jobs?. If so, probably not too expensive. If not, it may be time to re evaluate your pricing. 

I add actual production costs, overhead, and profit to create a quote. The house the work is going into, what it looks like the customer can "afford", or even estimates provided by others for the work are all irrelevant regarding my costs. 

It seems to me that it's impossible for anyone here to definitively state that your price was too high, too low, or just right. Only the folks you're selling to can define that. 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk


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## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

I'm just a hobbyist, I don't build cabinetry for a living. So from the average joe's perspective on your price, it sounds really high to me for what essentially looks like a simple and straight forward build. I also don't see why it would take nearly two weeks to build those, but I also underestimate pretty often how long it takes to do things.

These are built-ins, right? So are the walls already framed out for the install or do you have to demo and prep the interior walls yourself? Because that would change things a lot, still not $13k but definitely increase the labor charge.

I've done IT contracts for over a decade and I probably undersell myself. I see what shops charge grandma to fix a computer or install additional hardware and I think it's outrageous. I'm like, you paid $200 for that? I would've done it for $20!


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Without getting philosophical, the price is way too high. Why? Because others would charge about 1/3 of that. 
Whether the people have a lot of money or not is totally irrelevant. The only relevancy is what are your credentials.


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## sancho57 (Oct 23, 2011)

@danrush

Hey Dan, this is Ron, met you at festool connect in LV. Good to see yer name here


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

Too bad the original poster hasn't been back on here since February of 2018 to see all of this commentary...


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