# Metal Threshold has space beneath it



## Jimbow

Had a new Thermatrue door installed, but they left a 3/8" gap between the new metal threshold and the old pitched sill. Is there any thing I might "inject" in that gap to make it solid enough to step on and not flex? They wanted to squeeze caulk in the gap but I didn't like that idea. I figure there must be some sort of gunable substance in there to accomplish the effect of a flat base that they were supposed to use. Any suggestion or idea gladly welcomed.


----------



## jschaben

Jimbow said:


> Had a new Thermatrue door installed, but they left a 3/8" gap between the new metal threshold and the old pitched sill. Is there any thing I might "inject" in that gap to make it solid enough to step on and not flex? They wanted to squeeze caulk in the gap but I didn't like that idea. I figure there must be some sort of gunable substance in there to accomplish the effect of a flat base that they were supposed to use. Any suggestion or idea gladly welcomed.


Is this a contractor or dealer that installed it?
The installation instructions are pretty specific as far as sill pan and required sealant;
http://www.thermatru.com/customer-support/installation-instructions/

I would think the elastomeric sealer they are recommending would firm up enough not to flex much but that sounds to me like an awfully large gap.


----------



## Jimbow

*Thanks*

It was a contractor, and the gap is at least 3/8 of an inch. Short of major legal action I am stuck fixing the problem myself. In hindsight I have been advised that the metal threshold must be solid or the jambs will never be properly sealed . . . and will be wicking in water, snow, moisture due to constant flexing where the threshold meets the jambs. If I knew how to attach a photo I could show you my situation.


----------



## jschaben

Jimbow said:


> It was a contractor, and the gap is at least 3/8 of an inch. Short of major legal action I am stuck fixing the problem myself. In hindsight I have been advised that the metal threshold must be solid or the jambs will never be properly sealed . . . and will be wicking in water, snow, moisture due to constant flexing where the threshold meets the jambs. If I knew how to attach a photo I could show you my situation.


I'd recommend taking some quick action, including photos. Contractor should be back redoing the door. :furious:


----------



## H. A. S.

Jimbow said:


> It was a contractor, and the gap is at least 3/8 of an inch. Short of major legal action I am stuck fixing the problem myself. In hindsight I have been advised that the metal threshold must be solid or the jambs will never be properly sealed . . . and will be wicking in water, snow, moisture due to constant flexing where the threshold meets the jambs. If I knew how to attach a photo I could show you my situation.



If you can't get satisfaction from the contractor, (been there, done that); fix it yourself. Can you remove just the threshold, without disassembling the whole frame? You could use some good old hardwood and caulk. That way, you will know it's been done right. I'd raise hell with them first.


----------



## BWSmith

Gotta back the truck up just a bit with a question...........if any moisture gets in/around the new alum sill,how is this going to impact the intregrity of the "old pitched sill"?Once that question or condition is calc'd then you can sorta proceed to next step of deciding to completely caulk or wedge with spacing.

Most of those alum sills are an extrusion......their bttms aren't flat.Instead they have vert stiffeners every cpl inches.Sometimes outter edge or lip is wider......just take that into consideration before layin a bead of caulking say,at just the outer edge.....you'll still get flex in middle.Better to fit a taper'd wedge in some instances.

Further....and this should have been a MAJOR factor before install is why an old pc of wood was going to be left under the new sill.It very well could be stout,and better quality than anything avail today(and best to leave)............or it could be that door dick didn't want to be bother'd taking it out?This also should be an influence on how the problems treated.

There could be some other factors that would lean the balance oneway or other in the proper fix.........and it can get a little confusing so will stop here.BW


----------



## Drs3077

when we set doors like that we fill the gap with silicone the put a piece of parding stop under the treash hold to support it in the front


----------



## jstange2

Have you paid them yet? If not, make them redo. If you have, it may need taken out and properly prepped before reinstalling. Without seeing it, it is hard to actually say for sure.


----------



## Corbin3388

Where did you come across this contractor? All contractors report through the state board and mediators are available for issues which contractors an customers cannot agree. If it's a gap and you don't have flex silicone will fix it. If you do have flex the. It should be shimmed then siliconed. It may all have to come out but without a seeing exactly what the issue is I don't know fo sho

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


----------



## Hammer1

Maybe I'm not understanding your situation. Sounds like they installed the new door on top of an existing wooden threshold? That's a big problem and the old threshold should have been removed. There should be a flashing pan or bituminous membrane installed under the new door sill. A filler may be used on top of the flashing if the door sill needs to be higher so the door will clear the floor and/or carpet. The door unit has to be removed and installed properly, don't even think about any type of caulking.


----------



## woodnthings

*I have installed Therma True doors*

Sometimes I completely remove the threshold as in the case of an inside door between a shop and garage so I can roll heavy machines in and out...welder...etc.
Other times I replace the factory threshold with my own design. It's hard to remove as the factory staples are about 2" long.
Based on your post you have 2 choices:
1. get it reinstalled correctly
2. DIY 
Without a picture of your exact condition or a diagram with measurements, gaps widths etc it's difficult to recommend a fix.However, based on what I read a combination of sealant, shim then additional sealant (not caulk) should provide support and seal the gap...I donno?
Here's a link to the Therma True installation instructions. There is a "sill pan" option which may have been a better solution in your situation...no pictures...just guessin' :blink: bill
http://www.thermatru.com/pdfs/installation/InstallationInstruction.pdf


----------



## Jimbow

*Photo Help??*

I have been trying to attach pics of my situation but seem unable to find a way. Is there an easy solution?


----------



## jstange2

Do you have photobucket or have them on your computer?


----------



## Jimbow

*Here are a few pic, if they attach*

Two different doors, same installers, same new thresholds installed atop 1930's pitched sill plate, which leaves a gap at the bottom of the front since the rear sits firmly on the hight point of the existing sill plate.


----------



## Jimbow

*Frustrating*

I have the pic in the computer, hit manage attachments (below), saw them listed, hit upload . . . and 15 minutes later it was still uploading . . . then they were all gone. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Corbin3388

Size is too big most likely. It is frustrating. Under your account settings for the forum Change download size to tiny.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


----------



## Jimbow

*Even More Frustratimg*

I went into my UCP and tried several editable options but did not find anything that would allow me to select "tiny" or any other option that seemed related to my pic size or attachments.


----------



## Corbin3388

Jimbow said:


> I went into my UCP and tried several editable options but did not find anything that would allow me to select "tiny" or any other option that seemed related to my pic size or attachments.


Settings , posting options ,

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


----------



## Jimbow

*I Plead Stupidity*

I cannot find a single entry that addresses that issue. This is seeming more and more like a fourm for computer guys rather than woodworkers.


----------



## woodnthings

*attachment size*

Open "manage attachments" window
jpg size is 97.7 KB
Max width is 602
Max height is 480

If your pictures exceed those specs they won't "upload"
So, you must use a "resizer" program such as www.getpaint.net

This occurs when a camera is too powerful resolution, such as more than 5MP. I must resize all pictures taken with my 10MP camera, so I don't use it to post here PITA! Either reset your camera resolution...or use a cheap a** camera. :laughing: bill


----------



## woodnthings

*answer?*



jstange2 said:


> Do you have photobucket or have them on your computer?


If they are stored on your computer in MY Pictures, under My Documents, then just highlight/select them one at a time to "upload" You must wait until they upload and to see the "upload" button you must enlarge that window to full screen...:yes: bill


----------



## BWSmith

Not trying to be the least bit rude but...........dang,I'm BARELY one step above being computer illiterate and can post a pic.

I take a pic,making sure camera is putting them on memory card,vs storing them internally........then I stick the card into computer.It comes up,I title it....then it loads.I just put them on the desktop(move them to a machinary folder later)temporarely.......then when adding them to a post,just find them on desktop,whilst browsing,upload and presto they appear.Just sayin that in NO way is this site for computer geeks,nerds or any other derogotory "affliction",haha.

Bill,helped me......to which I say thanks.BW


----------



## Jimbow

*One at a time*

Ooooh kay, one at a time has "failed" also. So I guess my jpeg file photos have too much/too large info. I will find another way. First time this has happened on any site I use, Vets, HeatingHelp, Lowes, Homedepot, USMC, Rigid tools . . . . weird.


----------



## Woodworkingkid

try posting them on photo bucket then copy and past them here


----------



## Jimbow

*Here I go again*

Here (I hope) are a few pics of the gap beneath the new threshold of my doors. Not happening.

How do I get them FROM Photobucket to here?


----------



## Tennessee Tim

Jimbow,
The Simpliest way I know and I work with alot of photos is open the picture in whatever editing/viewing program you have( normally double click on the file you want to open and it will open into a program that computer has preset), next go to upper left corner (PC) click on "file" scroll down and click on "SAVE AS", this will let you create another file if you change the filename ( I just add the word web to the end of existing name so I know it's been reduced for web/internet use) then click on the compression rate ..." low res/highest compression" some programs are by number scale 1-10 then I normally use # 3.then tell to "save". 99.9% of the time this does the trick.

BW,
The normal reason a person can go from camera to web without reducing is because it was shot at a low resolution/file size to start with. People will set there camera settings regarding "# or size of file saved" by making the adjustment to get the MOST pics on a card which actually shoots at the lowest resolution which is fine if your not doing anything more than web or small prints. I always recommend the highest resolution in jpeg = less # of pics able to store on card BUT it allows nice enlargements to be made. And some editing programs will or can automatically adjust for the web if commanded.

I hope this helps,
Have a Blessed day in Jesus,
Tim


----------



## Jimbow

*Ya got me*

I have been trying to attach photos to this site for over 2 hours, tried loading them onto Photobucket, converted to thumbnail size, searched the onboard tools for this site but, alas, it will not accept my photos. I guess, as one responder stated, I need a cheap camera with minimal pixals. For now I give up. In my 15 years of computer dabling at the Vets' Center and at work, I have never encountered a Fourm or web-site that could not attach my photos. Oh, well, I give up for now.


----------



## woodnthings

*Hey Jim*

You need to give is specific info at each step so we can determine a path for you. What camera, what setting, what format jpg?, what size, etc.
We won't give up on you yet, bud! Hang in there and get back on a ride again. All of us have fallen off a time or two. What photo software program do you use? I use Kodak Easy Share, so that's the one I am familiar with.
My Pictures,(Kodak Pictures) is where they are stored on my PC Windows XP. So that's where mine are. Like BW says you can also remove the card insert it in an adaptor, read them, download and store/save them to your desk top. Never done that myself, but I have the adaptor, just need to try it. 
If you want a resizer program www.GetPaint.net is free and works for me. You can enlagre/zoom or resize and add graphics to the photos.

How about explaining how you mange to load them to other sites?  bill


----------



## cabinetman

Jimbow said:


> Here (I hope) are a few pics of the gap beneath the new threshold of my doors. Not happening.
> 
> How do I get them FROM Photobucket to here?


If you got them in photobucket, don't reduce them to thumbnails. Just make sure they are "jpeg", and around 750px wide or less. If you click on "edit" above the picture it will take you to the editing ability, where you can resize the photo.

When you are ready to copy the picture, hold the cursor over the picture, and on the line left click. You'll see the fading word "copied" when it copies. When you make your post, and where you want to insert the picture, right click, and when the menue drops down click on "paste". That's it!!

If that doesn't work, position the cursor over the left side of the link in [IMG], and hold down so it highlights the link moving left to right. Right click to get the menu, and then left click on copy. Then post in the thread like I previously mentioned.






[CENTER][IMG]http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u3/cabinetman_photos/masterlogo.jpg[/CENTER]








.


----------



## Jimbow

*Ok, I have taken a fall or two during my motoring daze*

My photos are stored on the laptop, using Windows, I believe. They are jpeg, shot with a small Panasonic, Lumix point & shoot camera, which is 8 or 9 megapixels. Normally I simply pick a photo, hit attach and it goes, sometimes very fast, other times very slow. But they always go.


----------



## jstange2

Another option is to cut the old threshold so it doesn't extend past the wall sheething and install a 1x cedar board under the front of the aluminum threshold after caulking between the old and new thresholds. This would be a big cheat but would work in a pinch. If it was me, I would still remove, reframe the floor, and reinstall properly.


----------



## jstange2

If you open your picture on your laptop, can you resize (stretch/skew) the picture in that program? What program is it?


----------



## Jimbow




----------



## Jimbow

*OMG I finally got it to work. Thanks*

Finally the COPY & Paste kicked it. As you can see from the pic, they stuck an old piece of white sinage under the metal threshold in an attempt to fill the void. Then they wanted to shoot calking around the shim.


----------



## woodnthings

*That thing is bowed like a ships hull!*

I'll betcha if you hold a straight edge from jamb to jamb the center is 1/2" down....if not, I'll buy the beers! You'll need to wedge up the center until it's straight across and then make a tapered shim that runs the full length from jam to jamb and slip it underneath. Or a bunch of shorter ones. Then it's time for sealant. It should be as easy as posting photos here.....:laughing: bill
BTW it looks like the floor behind it ain't all that level either, but that's another thread.


----------



## jstange2

Absolutely no doubt. It NEEDS to be redone. Like Bill said, if it isn't bowed down where the door seals against the threshold, I need to check my water because something is going on. There is no way the floor/old threshold is flat and level under there. Pull it out carefully. pull out the old threshold. Build up the floor joists where they cut them down so the original threshold was the right height. Leave room for at least a piece of 5/8" plywood. Lay down a layer of caulk closer to the outer edge of the threshold. Shim and secure. Trim inside. Reinstall screen door. Just my opinion.


----------



## Jimbow

*You are a Funny Man*

You actually got me to crack a laugh! I agree that the gap is deeper that 3/8" but I was hope to fill it with, perhaps, a Hilti epoxy of some other rigidly hardening filler. The original sill, installed by my grandfather when he built the house, is about 2" thick and very solid. As I now understand it, they were supposed to remove the original, pitched sill and replace it with a flat surface for the new metal sill to land on. They talked a very good story, the owner, but the workers barely spoke anything, as only one spoke English. Now I am stuck fixing it. And I am no carpenter, construction worker, true, but not a carpenter. I can read a level and shim till level and plumb--but I tend to stick with piping, large and small.
Here's another look.


----------



## jschaben

Tennessee Tim said:


> Jimbow,
> The Simpliest way I know and I work with alot of photos is open the picture in whatever editing/viewing program you have( normally double click on the file you want to open and it will open into a program that computer has preset), next go to upper left corner (PC) click on "file" scroll down and click on "SAVE AS", this will let you create another file if you change the filename ( I just add the word web to the end of existing name so I know it's been reduced for web/internet use) then click on the compression rate ..." low res/highest compression" some programs are by number scale 1-10 then I normally use # 3.then tell to "save". 99.9% of the time this does the trick.
> 
> BW,
> The normal reason a person can go from camera to web without reducing is because it was shot at a low resolution/file size to start with. People will set there camera settings regarding "# or size of file saved" by making the adjustment to get the MOST pics on a card which actually shoots at the lowest resolution which is fine if your not doing anything more than web or small prints. I always recommend the highest resolution in jpeg = less # of pics able to store on card BUT it allows nice enlargements to be made. And some editing programs will or can automatically adjust for the web if commanded.
> 
> I hope this helps,
> Have a Blessed day in Jesus,
> Tim


 
Tim is right on about the camera settings. I use a 6MP camera, under Menu>Pict.Mode> select e-mail. It automatically sizes 640 x 480 resolution which I can upload directly from the camera.:yes:


----------



## Jimbow

*Now that I'm on a roll*

Here's a look at the other door. I suppose the original sill was pitched to keep the rain water and melting snow from running under the door and into the house. These guys just wanted to seal it with calk and be done with it. Another gap big enough for a snake to crawl through, if he so chose.


----------



## BWSmith

Cool deal on the pics!

Now,for some general rambling.Can't tell from pics if these drs have any roof cvring them.IOWs,are these drs on/under some kind of porch.

Theres a rather obscure and sometimes ambiguous code that can get sited evvvvvery once in awhile.It calls for a 4" min. "step" from finished exterior flr to,(this is where it gets touchy)some measure of interior FF(finish fl).But it goes back to the time when thresholds were non-existant(a sill and threshold are 2 different things).At least its based on "once upon a time",because outside historic work,most houses have some kind of raised threshold......which further confuses the issue when inspector is trying to explain why "homey's" deck project(new deck floor level with interior FF)fails because of this code.

You mentioned G-dads original install.......we still occasionally do wooden thresholds.I'd have to go check ours,but 7 degrees pops into my head.And I've pulled.....replaced.....messed with alot in old house world.They can in some instances outperform aluminum,just sayin.Further,you want to be careful(this don't apply to you but may help someone)when ordering a dr that has attatched "sidelites".......more often than not they'll come with seperate Alum thresholds.IOW's co dosen't take the time to have one common threshold.They just take multiples and halfazz screw them together.Same happens on window sills when dbls or tripples are put together.Well,that sure isn't the way your G-dad would have done it.These would be best served with a common sill.....any "hassle" thats now consider'd when even discussing this just wasn't in our building vocabulary before say 1970.

Replacement anything(windows,doors,siding,roofs)are engineer'd today to speed install,its THAT simple.The collatoral "damage" in this notion is very simply,uhhhhh.....cracks.And don't be fooled by some chickensh*t vinyl sliding pce that gets smooshed over to fill said crack.Thats just smoke N mirrors WRT loose fitment.

I personally can't say,even after your GREAT job of posting pics,haha.......whether or not I'd jerk the whole thing.One thought on that however is whether you'll do the work or if you want a MAJOR hassle goin through original contractor.And I won't comment on that,because just like replacement anything,dealing with contractors is very much on a case by case issue.But lets say you want it done right and that means you'll be doin the work,in that case I'd let the thing stay installed for awhile and see if any other issues come to lite.IOWs wouldn't be in a big hurry to rip it out.......choosing a wait N see approach.And if testing is on the menu,a garden hose is pretty effective.

A sloped sill has advantages over whats become the norm these days,in some cases.Its just that speed is the main design criteria now and that kinda dosn't work for doin sloped sills.Or a serious flashing job,waterproofing,or any engineering where mother nature is involved.The very best of luck,BW


----------



## woodnthings

*I'm with you*



jstange2 said:


> I would still remove, reframe the floor, and reinstall properly.


Because of the dropped center/curve in the sill this seems to be the best answer. The sill should rest on "something" flat and level to properly seal and be structurally strong. Repeated loads over time will pull the threshold from the sealing at the jamb.
Just throwin' this out there...can you reduce the curve by sanding down the sill at each ends near the jamb? Or can you make a Bondo fill to level out the sill? Sometimes it's easier to add than remove. Either way the door comes out. A bandsaw would be a great help in making a tapered shim and that's how I would do it. A little Bondo won't hurt either to bed the thing in.
A batch of thin set maybe? Maybe the sag in the sill and floor could be reduced from underneath by additional support from a beam across the joists jacked in to place? Some of the issue here is structural, another is fitment, and finally aesthetic or will it look good. Lot's of issues if you are not a carpenter. :yes: bill


----------



## cabinetman

I can't remember buying a pre-hung door that included a threshold. Once the jamb is installed and the door is hung, a threshold can be planned. It's at that time to work out all the problems with whatever type threshold is to be used. Whether it's a matter of shimming, or leveling with preparing the wood floor below if wood, or, cement if that's the floor. The installer should have worked out the problems. It's not like it wasn't visible. 

I would lay a straightedge on both the sill and the edge of the threshold to see what's out. From the picture it looks like the wood or the edge of the threshold could be out, or both. Hard to tell, as pictures on a monitor aren't always a good perspective.












 







.


----------



## Tennessee Tim

Jimbow,

I would at least turn the pictures and issue in to the Better Business Bureau and the contractors board and codes if applicable. I assume you paid to have it done right ( I left this loosely open because I run across individuals that are ONLY interested in bottom line (cost) and will tell me "skip whatever just fix it cheap " and that's my SIGN....to educate them what's proper install and finish a proper install bid.

It's this kind of shoddy/sloppy work that is causing "we" the good contractors/remodelers/handyman businesses to have to deal more with the govt than with the project itself. The govt officials add more rules and regulations and hoops to jump through and says we are supposed to "self police" others. It's like most rule and regs in place ... there not stated/in place for the ones who are doing things correctly but for the ones whom don't care about right and wrong or others.

Glad to see some good pics/evidence !!!

Have a Blessed day in Jesus,
Tim


----------



## woodnthings

*Therma Tru doors have an adjustable threshold cap*

Their exterior doors usually have an adjustable cap that seals the gap between the door bottom. The terms sill and threshold are used interchangeably by Therma Tru and others: http://www.bevelkingdoors.com/terminology.php Their installation instructions call for leveling the sill plate as well, then running 3 large beads of sealant. Seems to me this issue is extreme and well beyond the use of sealant. Somethins' not right with the subfloor as far as I can tell. Picture may distort somewhat, but I have a "trained" eye. :laughing: bill


----------



## cabinetman

woodnthings said:


> Their exterior doors usually have an adjustable cap that seals the gap between the door bottom. The terms sill and threshold are used interchangeably by Therma Tru and others: http://www.bevelkingdoors.com/terminology.php


I take the "adjustable cap" to be just that, a height adjustor for the threshold. Threshold being an entity of its own, not an interchangeable term. I could be wrong. 

I got "mentored" in door installation some time years ago in the last century, by a "doorman". That's all he did all his life, and I was very impressed with his craftsmanship. Now, maybe he could have been wrong, or I misunderstood his technique, but, thresholds get fitted to the jambs, but not fastened thereto. 












 







.


----------



## woodnthings

*My Therma Tru doors have an integral threshold*

The Exterior doors come as a "unit" with the jambs and threshold all assembled as one unit. I have used these in my house in about 5 locations including a french door. The adjustable cap is part of a sub assembly in this case, some have it, some don't. This video may be helpful to the OP ...but in this case the threshold is a separate wood glue up of different sections, not like the Therma Tru door he has. http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20047031,00.html

another explanation : http://www.ehow.com/how_5373860_repair-door-sill-plate.html

   Door threshold in need of a new sill. A door sill plate is at the bottom of every home's entryway. It helps seal off the door from the outside elements as well as provide some protection to the flooring or subfloor in some of the most trafficked areas in a home. Replacing a damaged or rotting door sill is a task most homeowners with a few tools and a moderate amount of carpentry experience can tackle in a few hours.

​


----------



## Jimbow

*Very enlightening, my friend*

I would really rather not remove the installed pre-hung door. It does function and does not allow water to enter. It is more a matter of firming up the metal piece that connects to the jambs, because it flexs greatly when steped upon. I was thinking of a few well-placed shims to level it . . . and then inject an epoxy of some sort to harden solid beneath the metal piece (sill or threshold?) Or am I just jerking my selfsilly?


----------



## rozer2013

Hello Everyone I have just updated my account here. I welcome all of you.


----------



## rozer2013

Thanks everyone for the sharing the information with us.

Floor levelling


----------



## crosley623

Jimbow
It sounds like you are not interested or willing to remove and reinstall the door correctly, but want suggestions on a sturdy fix. You mentioned an epoxy....if this a route you want to take start by shimming the door sill completely level and then add a solid bit of epoxy. I would recommend a real epoxy like hilti Re-500. If you fill the void it will harden stronger than the original sill and last forever. You will only have to figure out a way to cover it with something not bright red.

It sounds like you are a pipe fitter, you should be able to find some re-500 on the job site


----------

