# Groz #3 plane..Anybody???



## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

As terrible as this is I'm a custom carpenter and I only own 1 hand plane. (My bosch power planer does most of my planing) I'm embarrassed to even tell you guys where I got it...Anyway. I'm also a cheap SOB that doesn't usually buy something unless its used or on clearance. 

That being said Woodcraft sent me a 10$ "gift certificate" and they also have the Groz #3 bench plane 9" on sale for 29 bucks.

Is anyone familiar with Groz? I'm guessing they're German by the name. Is this a good buy. Would this be a good plane to start practice with. I want something I don't have to fungle with or bring back from the dead. Any info would be stellar!


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## goingenoan (May 24, 2008)

Hiya Recklessone. 
I haven't tried the Groz product line. I went for broke with the Anant line of handplanes and lost. :furious: I spent about $39 for a low angle block plane. After a couple hours of lapping the sole and lapping and sharpening the blade I finally gave up. The milling was so bad that I just couldn't everything square and flat. Now I just keep it around for rough trim carpentry when I don't want to pull out an electric planer to chamfer an edge or some other small job. I guess the moral of the story is unless you have a lot of time and patience for tuning up a cheapo hand plane then you are probably better off buying one the expensive brands (~$150) like Veritas or Lie Neilsen or go to ebay and look for an old Stanley plane. That's my .02 worth. Good luck!:smile:

________________________________
Work to live, not live to work!


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

goingenoan said:


> Hiya Recklessone.
> I guess the moral of the story is unless you have a lot of time and patience for tuning up a cheapo hand plane then you are probably better off buying one the expensive brands (~$150) like Veritas or Lie Neilsen or go to ebay and look for an old Stanley plane. That's my .02 worth. Good luck!:smile:
> 
> ________________________________
> Work to live, not live to work!


You got that right Goingenoan;

Don't waste much time with box store cheap tools, look for better Stanley planes on Ebay:

Stanley's best planes, were the pre-war baileys and Bedrocks types between 1887 to late 1930s any post WWII planes like the four squares and handyman were of much lower quality as their predecessors. Other than the Frog difference between the Bedrocks and Baileys, the type 13 Baileys plane is the best plane in it's class. If you can afford an early Bedrock Flat or Round side plane, go ahead and take it, you won't regret it. I know - I have the whole collection.

FYI the best planes manufactured and on the market today in 2008 is the Bedrock type of the early days made by Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley - Veritas. 

If your looking into used, early Stanley planes, look for:

Rosewood handles (not painted),
"keyhole" type lever caps,
"V" type or "Sweethart" logos on the cutting iron,
2 or 3 patent dates stamps behind the frog,
solid cast frogs (no recesses),
3 piece lateral adjusters,
small 1" type brass depth adjuster,
solid cast Y depth adjuster,
no red, yellow or orange paint anywhere on the frog or lever cap,
no "Made in USA" stampings anywhere.
Other than these general factors makes it a rare - one-off -, or a later Stanley model type 15 and up. (types nos, went to 20 of today)

Note that you can get any of those planes with theses characteristics for no more than $20, other than some cleaning and some little fiddling. You can do wonders with a good antique Stanley plane.

If you're looking for just one plane, get a #5 Jack, if you like working with hand tools, you're second choice after that is a #7 Jointer plane. And the 3rd one, is a #4 Smoother.

G.luck

"plane" questions? I've got answers!

Pete


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

*wow!*

I'm impressed Pete...

If you have some time could you take a look at this deal and tell me what you think?

Thanks again!

two Stanley jack planes:# 5 & 5 C, - eBay (item 370114201867 end time Dec-15-08 19:48:36 PST)


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

Don't waste much time with box store cheap tools, look for better Stanley planes on Ebay:

Sometimes, we wonder if big name stores seams to just want to sell anything, regardless of it's quality.


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## thekctermite (Dec 23, 2007)

I'm like you in that I've been working wood for years and never had good planes, or any planes for that matter. I bought a cheap (new) Stanley #4 and have found it to be poorly made and very difficult to tune.

I followed the advice I was given and got two planes from this gentleman...
www.brasscityrecords.com
He is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge about old tools. He definately likes to talk tools on the phone!

I got a pre-WWII #4 and #5 Stanley, both in great shape, including the original boxes, for around $70 each. They're both awesome planes and work remarkably well. 

My favorite however is an ebay find. It is a #3 stanley bailey from around 1910. It is a very versatile little plane and is easier to use than the #4 in my opinion.

A good block plane is a must. Probably the first plane you should have. Either an old stanley or a Lie-Neilsen will do. I have a Lie-Neilsen and really love it. 

Do your homework on sharpening. You'll need a jig (I like the Veritas jig) and something abrasive. I used to use a waterstone, but have found that the "scary sharp" method is excellent. You use a piece of granite or 1/2" thick glass with varying grits of wet-dry sandpaper to put an edge on your tools.

Personally, I'd skip the Groz. :thumbdown:


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## thekctermite (Dec 23, 2007)

Don't worry if the used planes you see look used. You can overhaul them to like new condition (both function and appearance) if you want to.


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

TheRecklessOne

Those 2 planes seems identical in types other than corrugated soles.

With just pictures, they seam to be of type 18 (1946-1947) post war; black painted beech totes and knobs, cast ring receiver for front knob, raised rib on toe and heel and it looks to me that they have brass depth adjuster (good).

With some lapping of the sole and a thicker, harder cutter blade iron from Hock tools or Lie-Nielsen, they could make good Jack planes.

The blacker one seem to have been painted; all Stanley planes, other then the #40 and 40 1/2 scrub planes, don't have any paint or "japanning" on the sides. So the owner might have something to hide! Like a weld, stay away from broken/re-welded planes

In my opinion, the asking price, is a bit high, for these planes in these conditions. Wait for better Stanley models of older types, even with a broken tote handle, those are easely repareable with Titebond II yellow glue.

Oh, I forgot to say, other affordable plane manufacturers were pretty good Stanley competitors: 

Bailey types: in order of plane quality in my opinion
1. - Miller Falls planes - look for black models #14 Jack (very very good planes) their numbering systems equaled their lengths #9 is a 9" smoother like a #4, and #22 is a 22" Jointer like the #7;
2. - Sargent, 
3. - Winchester (made by Stanley),
4. - Union,
5. - V&B (Vaughn and Bushnell -manufactueres of Bushnell hammers),
6. - Preston,
7. - Keen Kutters - "KK" planes
others that I may forget or not worth writing about ('Seers')!:thumbdown:

Bedrock types:thumbsup:
1. - Clifton - if you can afford them,
2. - Keen Kutters - K planes were exactly like Bedrock planes, and and were also very good.

These 2 links, for Jack planes (if you're looking for Jacks) listed now and ending soon, seem to be the best bets; - copy and paste;

1892 antique~STANLEY No. 5 PLANE~RARE BRASS PARTS~EUC~ - eBay (item 310102144862 end time Nov-26-08 20:05:00 PST)

This one looks like it don't have a cutter but is a type 13 (3 dates);
Antique No. 5 Bailey Wooden Plane - eBay (item 350129385572 end time Nov-28-08 16:38:17 PST)

#4 and #5 cutting iron are the same width.

"plane" questions - I got answers!:yes:

Pete


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

Do your homework on sharpening. You'll need a jig (I like the Veritas jig) and something abrasive. I used to use a waterstone, but have found that the "scary sharp" method is excellent. You use a piece of granite or 1/2" thick glass with varying grits of wet-dry sandpaper to put an edge on your tools.

Personally, I'd skip the Groz. :thumbdown:[/quote]

You got that right, "Scary Sharp" is the way to go. It'll put an edge on any iron just as good, and even better, than a $500 sharpener. it will shave your "neck":thumbsup:

I use 13" x 13" porcelain tiles and spray glued sand paper sheets from 180 to 800 grit for mirror sharp cutting iron. 

Pete


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## mlightfoot (May 13, 2008)

I would agree, skip the Groz. I purchased a set of 2 and have spent nearly 3 hours sharpening as they were useless out of the box. Now that they are sarp, they wok OK but do not hold an edge.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The Groz is likely made in India but I'm not sure. As others have suggested, I'd pass. There are so many decent planes on Ebay and for sale on wwing forum classifieds. Even post-war Bailey type 17 or 18 will likely be better than the Groz. 

I've been happy with the old Bailey, better Record, and better Millers Falls planes. Some of the better old Craftsman are actually workable planes too. Usually the inclusion of rosewood or hardwood handles and a frog adjustment screw are indicators of their better quality planes as opposed to the econo planes. A quality old plane in nice shape is likely to run $30-$60, which is still pretty affordable. 

Check out Rexmill.com and read his "Bench Plane Type Study" and the Millers Falls study. 

This is pre-WWII Bailey with a Sweetheart blade was ~ $20...note the little adjuster screw under the blade adjustment knob:







All of these planes are great users when sharpened:







This Rali is a little ugly but works great and requires very little setup skill and the blades are disposable:


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

*Update*

Thanks for your help everybody! Good advice tends to fall on deaf ears like a shotgun love song....but not this time! This pre-war Bailey with Redwood handles is now mine!! I can't wait to get it in!
$50 bucks on eBay by the way...a few dollars more than the Groz and this one's got character. :tank:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

That's in great shape and was a really good deal. It's older than Type 13 (pre 1930) ...I'll guess Type 11, but could be older. Need more pics! Nice catch!


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

I'll get more pics ASAP...by the way it is a type 11 No. 5


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

TheRecklessOne said:


> I'll get more pics ASAP...by the way it is a type 11 No. 5



You got a good deal, Congrats! 
Looking at 3 patent dates, behind the frog, you are sure it's a type 11. 

Best low cost planes on the market! Probably the best castings methods of the old days. Same as today's high priced competitors.

One tip; Go ahead and get yourself a good Hock Tools or Lie-Nielsen Toolworks high carbon steel cutting iron on it, and you'll have an excellent plane.

Any questions on tuning it, when you get it home? Just ask!

Pete


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

*Christmas came early!!*

Hey Pete (or anybody that knows)!!! I need help! I got my Bailey in today and there is a long scratch and minor pitting on the sole. Not to mention it wobbles on its plate diagonally. What next?


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## thekctermite (Dec 23, 2007)

Time to do some lapping. If it wobbles, you've got a job ahead of you, and you got screwed a little. That's a risk of ebay though. The scratch and pitting won't make much difference.

Get a sheet of glass, preferably 3/8" or thicker. I use a chunk of countertop granite. A wood surface is not flat enough. Use some 3M 77 spray adhesive and stick a sheet or two of 180 or 220 wet-dry sandpaper. Add water and get to lapping back and forth (remove the cutting iron) with as big of strokes as the surface and the length of paper will allow...4" strokes will take all day. When your arms feel like they're about ready to fall off, you're about halfway there. It may take a while. Get rid of the wobble with agressive grits. Then go to progressively finer grits, probably to around 600 to get a nice slick finish and to remove the marks from the more agressive paper. 

It will help to make some marks on the bottom of the plane to determine the high/low spots where the most material needs to be removed. 

Getting that plane dead flat is critical. I hope the wobble isn't too bad. The thing was probably dropped at one time. 

If you can't get it, a machine shop can probably mill it flat for you for a small fee.

And by the way, those handles are rosewood, not redwood! :smile:


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## thekctermite (Dec 23, 2007)

Here's how I've done it...I set this up quickly to illustrate...

Note the granite plate. Glass is cheaper unless you have a friend in the granite biz.
Keep the paper very wet and keep the slurry moving in the water. Wet dry paper isn't free, so you can cut it lengthwise in half before sticking it down. 

You can use water to stick the paper down, but it is a lesson in frustration.


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

It's not a terrible wobble. How do I explain to a machine shop that I only want enought taken off to end the wobble not a paper thin sole?


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

Correction

I just checked the plane on my tablesaw top instead of my coffee table :wallbash:and it has no wobble. Imagine that. 

Anyway...My best friend owns a motorcycle shop so he's probably never seen an antique Jack Plane in his life, but he has all the machining gear ever needed to flatten stock. I just don't know how to run it so he'll have to. But now that I know I just need to clean the bottom that'll make things easier. 

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## mpm1696 (Jan 22, 2008)

TheRecklessOne said:


> It's not a terrible wobble. How do I explain to a machine shop that I only want enought taken off to end the wobble not a paper thin sole?



Good Post/Reply TheKCTermite. What you explained is perfect. :thumbsup:

In my shop, I use a 21" belt sander sanding paper, I cut it in half and got a 40" plus long by 3" wide sander paper to lap plane soles. I start with 80 grit then to 120 to 180 (you can always go further, it's your tools, and it's your sweat). I clamp the paper taut on my Table Saw top which is 26" wide and relatively flat enough for me (You could also use your 6" Jointer - but please don't use water here, or on any other cast iron tops). Lap the sole with good long strokes, and let the sanding paper do the work. You also want to make sure that the sole to side angle stays at 90 degrees on both sides. In my opinion no tool is exactly 100% "FLAT". The end-point is to learn to work with your hands and tools as they are. But occasionally, like this post, you do have to tune-up tools. Especially quality tools like a hand plane.

One good tip is to lap your plane sole up to the point where most of the sole is flat, even if there's still some high spots, and some scatches. If you lap the sole too much, you will open up the mouth too wide and render your plane useless or as good as a red-neck scrub-plane :laughing:. The thickness of the iron sole near the mouth is very thin.

The most important area that needs be flat, is near the front of the mouth. This area of the sole is critical because it presses the wood fibers down before being shaved, so it leaves a glass planed finish. This is why smoothers (#3, #4 and #4 1/2) have "tight" mouths.:icon_smile:

Another tip is to lap with all the attachements afixed: handle and knob and especially the frog (the part that holds the cutter at 45 degrees) - internal iron stresses purposses.

Good luck,

In my shop, Water and humidity is the enemy - Wipe-on Poly is my friend!:thumbsup:

Pete
"Plane" questions? I've good answers!


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## Admiral (Nov 9, 2007)

TheRecklessOne said:


> Correction
> 
> I just checked the plane on my tablesaw top instead of my coffee table :wallbash:and it has no wobble. Imagine that.
> 
> ...


 
A note of caution....before you have someone who has never machined a plane before start fiddling with this plane, take some time to sharpen up the blade properly and see how it performs. Make sure the frog beds nice and flat with the sole, and clean all the mating surfaces with some fine steel wool. You don't need shiny machined surfaces to take fine shavings... I'd give it a few passes on some sandpaper like someone above suggested and just clean up the sole a bit; it looks like the pitting is at the rear of the sole, and if the area in front of the mouth and immediately behind it are not pitted, and the sole is otherwise flat (per your table saw test), you really should not mess with it. I've been restoring old planes for the last 20 years and some of my prime users have a slight bit of pitting that do not affect use. Remember, someone made a living with that plane when it was new, and it likely has already been fettled to work right with a sharp blade and relatively flat sole. YMMV.

RN


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## Bob Easton (May 1, 2008)

If there's no wobble on your table saw, don't bother with any machining. That's plenty flat enough, at least at a large scale. Next, mark up the bottom with a Sharpie marker and give the plane some passes over 220 sandpaper (on your table saw, granite base, or glass). Look for flatness in four areas, at the toe and heel and at both sides of the mouth. If all of those work out flat, your good to go.


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