# Shellac vs oil-based polyurethane



## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

I've been going back and forth and have brought it up here and there in this forum, but now that my project is ready for finishing I'm still not sure which to go with. For starters I have never touched shellac before and I don't know anyone who has. I have only used a water or oil-based polyurethane for all my projects thus far.  I've tried researching the pros and cons and keep getting mixed reviews about shellac in particular. Some places say shellac is fantastic, beautiful, and durable, but others state it's too susceptible to heat and water for it to be used over say polyurethane. As my research on the subject thus far has yet to persuade me one way or the other I'll tell you what my projects are and perhaps someone can just tell me which to go with. In general my projects are cabinets, or blanket chests, or coffee tables. My current project and the subject for all this research is a display table, which will be in my parent's living room holding up photos and maybe one of those Scentsy things... ya know the light bulb things that warm up cubes of candle wax and make the room smell nice. I know shellac doesn't hold up well to heat, but only the top of the scentsy thing gets warm at all so maybe it's fine? I might be a little worried if my mother or someone sets a hot cup of coffee on top of the table which I could kind of see happening however unlikely it may be. Also another reason I'm iffy about switching to shellac is my sister's cat has this awful tendency to HOP ON TOP OF EVERY *ING in the house. I'm worried her claws might scratch shellac, but I know if that were an issue than polyurethane would scratch too from cat claws. Believe it or not I really do want to try shellac because I want to get out of my comfort zone with polyurethane. On a side note the other project I'm building for my parent's is a pair of nightstands for their bedroom which I know shellac even given it's water and heat issues wouldn't be an issue here cause well... they're nightstands. No candles, or anything hot or wet to speak of unless it's a cup of water.

Yet another possibility I've been mulling over is using a make your own mixture I've seen here and there where people use 1 part tung oil or BLO, 1 part mineral spirits, and 1 part oil varnish. I'm more interested in either using shellac or polyurethane, but if this make your own mix would be nice and durable over a hopefully long lifetime than I'll consider this as well.

The last thing to keep in mind is the display table and the nightstands are dyed using Transfast Water Based Wood Dye. If I go the shellac route I will buy a can of it to spray over the dye before I wipe on any further layers of shellac using shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol because I've read the alcohol has a tendency to reactivate the wood dye and can cause a muddy or blotchy appearance.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Shellac is a finish that pretty much requires being sprayed. The first coat can easily be brushed on but the second coat can be very frustrating to brush. Not only does it dry too fast for brushing it melts the first coat so If you don't work fast you end up taking about as much finish off as you are applying. It will also show brush marks more since it dries so fast. What you have researched is correct, shellac is vulnerable to heat and water. It can easily water spot and there are repair sticks available to repair furniture that are made out of colored shellac which you apply with a hot soldering iron. 

Oil based polyurethane is waterproof for interior use and after it ages enough is somewhat chemical resistant. I've spilled lacquer thinner on polyurethane before and just wiped it up without damaging the finish. It does also have the problem with the finish yellowing as it ages. The water based polyurethane is a completely different product. It does not have the same hardness and durability as the oil based counterpart. It's just a different product they have put the name polyurethane on. It will remain clear without the yellowing the oil based finish does.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Shellac is a finish that pretty much requires being sprayed. The first coat can easily be brushed on but the second coat can be very frustrating to brush. Not only does it dry too fast for brushing it melts the first coat so If you don't work fast you end up taking about as much finish off as you are applying. It will also show brush marks more since it dries so fast. What you have researched is correct, shellac is vulnerable to heat and water. It can easily water spot and there are repair sticks available to repair furniture that are made out of colored shellac which you apply with a hot soldering iron.
> 
> Oil based polyurethane is waterproof for interior use and after it ages enough is somewhat chemical resistant. I've spilled lacquer thinner on polyurethane before and just wiped it up without damaging the finish. It does also have the problem with the finish yellowing as it ages. The water based polyurethane is a completely different product. It does not have the same hardness and durability as the oil based counterpart. It's just a different product they have put the name polyurethane on. It will remain clear without the yellowing the oil based finish does.


Ok then that takes shellac out, but wouldn't water based polyurethane reactivate the wood dye and make a muddy appearance? Even if the dye has been sitting unfinished for at least a week?

Is the tung oil, mineral spirits, and oil varnish mixture a durable finish over a water based dye or would I run into the same problem as using water based polyurethane where it would muddy the appearance?

Or perhaps I should just give it up and be happy with what I know works and looks good doing it and stick with the oil based polyurethane?


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## Jimbo1953 (Jan 16, 2017)

Renraw, I can tell you polyurethane is some tough stuff. When I was a kid (about 5 decades ago) I made a body board (similar to a surfboard but shorter and you lay on it rather than stand) out of exterior plywood. I put 5-6 coats of polyurethane on the board. I took it into the ocean 4-6 times a week for 3-4 months. and It was continuously in the water for 2-3 hours each outing. The polyurethane worked without fail. Polyurethane gets my vote.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

renraw9002 said:


> Ok then that takes shellac out, but wouldn't water based polyurethane reactivate the wood dye and make a muddy appearance? Even if the dye has been sitting unfinished for at least a week?
> 
> Is the tung oil, mineral spirits, and oil varnish mixture a durable finish over a water based dye or would I run into the same problem as using water based polyurethane where it would muddy the appearance?
> 
> Or perhaps I should just give it up and be happy with what I know works and looks good doing it and stick with the oil based polyurethane?


If you apply a water based dye and don't wipe off the excess then you can pick up the dye into the finish and make it muddy. The excess should be removed anyway. Anything like that left on the surface can prevent the finish from bonding to the wood and peal off. 

The tung oil, mineral spirits, oil varnish would not be as durable of a finish as oil based polyurethane but in normal circumstances would make a pretty good finish. It would be a better finish than a oil based varnish alone. An oil based finish is usually a mixture of linseed oil and tung oil. When you say oil varnish if you mean a spar varnish that shouldn't be used at all on interior projects. It's formulated to be a little softer to be elastic enough to deal with wood movement outdoors.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> If you apply a water based dye and don't wipe off the excess then you can pick up the dye into the finish and make it muddy. The excess should be removed anyway. Anything like that left on the surface can prevent the finish from bonding to the wood and peal off.
> 
> The tung oil, mineral spirits, oil varnish would not be as durable of a finish as oil based polyurethane but in normal circumstances would make a pretty good finish. It would be a better finish than a oil based varnish alone. An oil based finish is usually a mixture of linseed oil and tung oil. When you say oil varnish if you mean a spar varnish that shouldn't be used at all on interior projects. It's formulated to be a little softer to be elastic enough to deal with wood movement outdoors.


Nah I was just following a recipe that I've seen online like this http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/make-your-own-oil-varnish-blend/. 1/3 BLO or Tung Oil, 1/3 thinner, and 1/3 Polyurethane. I've seen other variations, but this was the one I was reading and considering using. I think I stated it wrong in my previous post or I'm just all around losing my mind. Thank you

edit: I always wipe up the excess, and before I apply any finish after using dye I wipe the surface as best as I can with rags or paper towels to pick up any dust or anything remaining on the surface before applying polyurethane.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

A coat of dewaxed shellac like Zinsser Seal Coat, then top coat it with Bona or Polywhey/Norton will give a real tough water based finish and look very good

Bona and Polywhey are water based polys used for finishing floors, and will take a lot of abuse


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

The dewaxed shellac stops the grain from raising when the water based finish is applied, you could just scuff sand it but I ain't into excess sanding LOL


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

renraw9002 said:


> Nah I was just following a recipe that I've seen online like this http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/make-your-own-oil-varnish-blend/. 1/3 BLO or Tung Oil, 1/3 thinner, and 1/3 Polyurethane. I've seen other variations, but this was the one I was reading and considering using. I think I stated it wrong in my previous post or I'm just all around losing my mind. Thank you
> 
> edit: I always wipe up the excess, and before I apply any finish after using dye I wipe the surface as best as I can with rags or paper towels to pick up any dust or anything remaining on the surface before applying polyurethane.


I don't see how the homemade brew can save you money. It causes you to have to keep all these products which some of them will go bad sitting on the shelf. Tung oil and varnish don't last very long once it has been opened. Linseed oil would keep for a long time.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I used to make my own home-brew varnish mixing tung oil, varnish and thinner. After a while, I determined that I was basically making Waterlox, except I surmised that they had the benefit of chemists and equipment that aren't available to me. Since then I use Waterlox Original. For the first coat, I flood the wood and keep it wet until it looks like it will absorb no more. Then I wipe off the excess and let it dry. Subsequent costs I brush on thin, even coats with a _good_ varnish brush, sanding between coats to get out dust and finish boogers. This is the part I like - Additional coats will build additional gloss. The first few coats will be satiny, then it will get more glossy with each coat. When I get the gloss I like, I just stop.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't see how the homemade brew can save you money. It causes you to have to keep all these products which some of them will go bad sitting on the shelf. Tung oil and varnish don't last very long once it has been opened. Linseed oil would keep for a long time.





Quickstep said:


> I used to make my own home-brew varnish mixing tung oil, varnish and thinner. After a while, I determined that I was basically making Waterlox, except I surmised that they had the benefit of chemists and equipment that aren't available to me. Since then I use Waterlox Original. For the first coat, I flood the wood and keep it wet until it looks like it will absorb no more. Then I wipe off the excess and let it dry. Subsequent costs I brush on thin, even coats with a _good_ varnish brush, sanding between coats to get out dust and finish boogers. This is the part I like - Additional coats will build additional gloss. The first few coats will be satiny, then it will get more glossy with each coat. When I get the gloss I like, I just stop.


Dang. I like the idea of waterlox, but I can't afford those prices. $40 for a quart versus $15 for a quart of polyurethane. If I could afford it yea I'd go for the better product, but I think between both your's advice I think I'll just stick with polyurethane for now. Thank you guys.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

renraw9002 said:


> Dang. I like the idea of waterlox, but I can't afford those prices. $40 for a quart versus $15 for a quart of polyurethane. If I could afford it yea I'd go for the better product, but I think between both your's advice I think I'll just stick with polyurethane for now. Thank you guys.


Polyurethane also dries a lot quicker. Waterlox being tung oil you should wait about a week between coats.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Polyurethane also dries a lot quicker. Waterlox being tung oil you should wait about a week between coats.



I haven't had that problem; maybe because I'm using Waterlox original. I'm usually re-coating in 24 hours. 

It's definitely on the expensive side, but I think it's close to the same as making a home brew from separate components. It's hard to qualify this, but it seems like a little goes a long way. This is purely subjective, I think it's a nicer, warmer look than poly. I'd guess it's not a tough, but it's tough enough for the things I make.

By the way, one of my favorite finishes for items that don't get a lot of abuse is a few coats of 1-1/2 lb cut shellac - just enough to seal things up good followed by wax applied with 0000 steel wool. Also, I'm convinced that shellac made freshly from flakes dries harder than the canned stuff.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Quickstep said:


> I haven't had that problem; maybe because I'm using Waterlox original. I'm usually re-coating in 24 hours.
> 
> It's definitely on the expensive side, but I think it's close to the same as making a home brew from separate components. It's hard to qualify this, but it seems like a little goes a long way. This is purely subjective, I think it's a nicer, warmer look than poly. I'd guess it's not a tough, but it's tough enough for the things I make.
> 
> By the way, one of my favorite finishes for items that don't get a lot of abuse is a few coats of 1-1/2 lb cut shellac - just enough to seal things up good followed by wax applied with 0000 steel wool. Also, I'm convinced that shellac made freshly from flakes dries harder than the canned stuff.


If it wasn't for the critters running around and I know my mother is likely to put a hot cup of coffee on it from time to time I'd feel more comfortable using a polyurethane over shellac. the nightstands maybe I'd use shellac, but as most of my projects thus far have been things that will see regular use I can't justify spending $40 on a lb of shellac plus more for the alcohol.

The question now remains though. How do I get a water-based polyurethane to _look_ like I used an oil based polyurethane. I love that oil based poly over wood dye just gives a glow and makes it darker almost like dye does when you first put it on and you haven't wiped up the excess yet. It's almost like the poly makes the dye become the color it was originally supposed to be. The Transfast Dark Red Mahogany is a prime example of this. It looks really nice and dark red when you first apply it, then after you wipe up the excess and it air dries it almost look like this ugly pink color, but then after applying an oil based polyurethane it goes back to the nice deep dark red. 

I've read if you spray amber shellac over your dye and then apply your water based poly you can pretty much recreate the look of oil based poly. Can anyone give some creedence to this?


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## sbrader (Aug 27, 2015)

renraw9002 said:


> The question now remains though. How do I get a water-based polyurethane to _look_ like I used an oil based polyurethane.


General Finishes Enduro Var is a WB that looks like an OB. It gives a slight amber to the finish. It's also VERY easy to work with and looks great.

Scott


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

sbrader said:


> General Finishes Enduro Var is a WB that looks like an OB. It gives a slight amber to the finish. It's also VERY easy to work with and looks great.
> 
> Scott


It's also #30+ per quart. Too rich for my blood. I might try the amber shellac under the water based poly like varathane. That'd be around $40 for 2 quarts of the poly and 1 quart of the shellac though I've read good reviews on varathane's gloss and semi-gloss so maybe I won't need the shellac. Your mention also looks like it would be really good. I just can't afford those prices with my wife's medical bills.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Polyurethane also dries a lot quicker. Waterlox being tung oil you should wait about a week between coats.


Dang. Yea I can't wait that long for my projects. Maybe if it was going to end up being something I could make a lot of money off of, but for what I'm doing right now. Definitely not worth the wait or the money.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

renraw9002 said:


> Dang. Yea I can't wait that long for my projects. Maybe if it was going to end up being something I could make a lot of money off of, but for what I'm doing right now. Definitely not worth the wait or the money.


Tung oil just dries really slow. Like any finish if you rush it and apply a coat before the previous coat is completely dry it has the potential of the finish wrinkling or cracking when the finish fully cures. The best way to tell when tung oil is dry enough for another coat is to briskly rub the finish with a clean dry cloth and see if the tung oil smell rubs off on the rag. When there is no smell it's ready.


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## sbrader (Aug 27, 2015)

renraw9002 said:


> I just can't afford those prices with my wife's medical bills.


I've been down that road. My wife had breast cancer ten years ago and that set us back quite a bit. 

I hope all is better for your wife now.

Scott


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

sbrader said:


> I've been down that road. My wife had breast cancer ten years ago and that set us back quite a bit.
> 
> I hope all is better for your wife now.
> 
> Scott


oh man that sucks. Mine's not anything like that. She's not sick at all, we're just trying to have kids and that's a lot easier said than done. At this point we don't have a choice, but to get doctors involved and that is crazy expensive. To the point I don't even bother looking at my checks from work anymore cause I know it's just gonna disappoint me knowing they're gone before I even get them.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

renraw9002 said:


> oh man that sucks. Mine's not anything like that. She's not sick at all, we're just trying to have kids and that's a lot easier said than done. At this point we don't have a choice, but to get doctors involved and that is crazy expensive. To the point I don't even bother looking at my checks from work anymore cause I know it's just gonna disappoint me knowing they're gone before I even get them.


My wife's niece and nephew were having the same problem, and they had gone the medical route and still nothing so they decided they were going to adopt, they went through the ordeal of adoption, then some quirk in the law at the last minute the baby's natural mother decided to change her mind, they were heart broken, then out of the clear blue sky Danny got pregnant, and boom, boom, boom three kids in three years

I hope yours works out as well


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

I've decided to go with shellac over the dye and under a water based polyurethane. The water white of water based polyurethane isn't quite what i'm looking for though so I want to get some shellac flakes to add a nice warmth to my dye. What color flakes should I get to add the ambery color you get from an oil based polyurethane? Blonde? Orange? Despite all my googling I can't really find any particularly good pictures comparing the two? I'm just using regular whitewood from home depot if that helps.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

renraw9002 said:


> I've decided to go with shellac over the dye and under a water based polyurethane. The water white of water based polyurethane isn't quite what i'm looking for though so I want to get some shellac flakes to add a nice warmth to my dye. What color flakes should I get to add the ambery color you get from an oil based polyurethane? Blonde? Orange? Despite all my googling I can't really find any particularly good pictures comparing the two? I'm just using regular whitewood from home depot if that helps.



You might not want to use a deep amber shellac it will have wax in it and sometimes the wax can cause bonding problems with the top coat

It is best to use dewaxed or wax free shellac


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Catpower said:


> You might not want to use a deep amber shellac it will have wax in it and sometimes the wax can cause bonding problems with the top coat
> 
> It is best to use dewaxed or wax free shellac


I know. I made sure the shellac i'm ordering will be dewaxed. Unfortunately until the money from my parents for everything else I need to finish the table and nightstands gets in I can't do anything with them. So lately I've been mostly just pitter pattering around, building jigs, making a box for my electronic cigarette stuff, and trying to find other projects to do.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

Catpower said:


> You might not want to use a deep amber shellac it will have wax in it and sometimes the wax can cause bonding problems with the top coat
> 
> It is best to use dewaxed or wax free shellac




You can get amber in dewaxed flakes and it would give a nice orange color. If the orange is too strong you can get various shades of blond shellac that vary the amount of amber tones.

There are websites that specialize in selling shellac that have far more choices of shellac than rockler or woodcraft offer. The one I use is https://www.shellac.net/ which offers everything from raw lac seeds (complete with bug parts and bark) to button shellac which is a much harder finish then regular shellac. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

Terry Q said:


> You can get amber in dewaxed flakes and it would give a nice orange color. If the orange is too strong you can get various shades of blond shellac that vary the amount of amber tones.
> 
> There are websites that specialize in selling shellac that have far more choices of shellac than rockler or woodcraft offer. The one I use is https://www.shellac.net/ which offers everything from raw lac seeds (complete with bug parts and bark) to button shellac which is a much harder finish then regular shellac.
> 
> ...


I saw that website too, but for dipping my toes into shellac flake waters I've decided to go a little cheaper and try wellermart on Amazon. All the reviews seem mostly positive and the prices are the cheapest I've seen unless my math is off.


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## renraw9002 (Mar 19, 2016)

I bought super blonde, orange, and garnet. All dewaxed. I've yet to find a good photo of what garnet or orange looks like, but even if I did I'd still experiment. Pretty excited. I mixed up a small batch of each, a little more of the super blonde than the other two since I'm sure ill use that more than the other two. Got them all strained through dove cheesecloth now they all look crystal clear aside from their color of course. 

The orange looks like maple syrup in the jar. The garnet is black as night in the jar.


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