# Really?



## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

I feel silly asking this question on a forum but I cannot find a place to buy lacquer from. I'm looking for a pre cat lacquer and sealer near Toronto Canada and although I'm pretty resourceful I've come up with nada. Sherwin williams only will sell it to commercial clients and won't make en exception for me (something about labeling), big box only have deft. Lee valley only has deft. I called a sherwin williams store in the states near the border and they could get it but I would have to order 4 gallons at a time (shelf life they told me was 1 year, I doubt I would get through 1 gallon in 1 year. 

Ideally it's retail so I can just go buy some. Any other Canucks out there have a source?


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

google.com is a wonderful thing........
About 24,300 results (0.47 seconds) 







*Search Results*

*Pre and Post Catalyzed Lacquers - John E. Goudey ...*


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

So, what is wrong with Deft? I know it is not a pre cat, but it is still lacquer.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

was2ndlast said:


> I feel silly asking this question on a forum but I cannot find a place to buy lacquer from. I'm looking for a pre cat lacquer and sealer near Toronto Canada and although I'm pretty resourceful I've come up with nada. Sherwin williams only will sell it to commercial clients and won't make en exception for me (something about labeling), big box only have deft. Lee valley only has deft. I called a sherwin williams store in the states near the border and they could get it but I would have to order 4 gallons at a time (shelf life they told me was 1 year, I doubt I would get through 1 gallon in 1 year.
> 
> Ideally it's retail so I can just go buy some. Any other Canucks out there have a source?


I really don't know anything about the laws in Canada. You might go into a new store and present yourself as a professional furniture refinisher so they will sell you the lacquer you want. Most refinishing shops are mom and pop business so small amounts shouldn't look unusual. 

It true about the shelf life of precatalyzed lacquer. They put a hardener in it at the factory or the store and it will go bad.


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## jjrbus (Dec 6, 2009)

I keep promising myself I will get some business cards made up. I have to use my friends account at Granger, I got past another company and have my own account. Saved a few bucks at a lawn equipment company using a friends account this week.

What should the card say, needs to be nice and general. Need some input on that. JIm


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

*** Woodwork Contractor
Framing, Cabinetry, Additions, Remodeling.....
Gives you the latitude to ostensibly be a customer just about anywhere.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

You should be able to go into Sherwin Williams and buy precats in 4 different sheens in the USA by the gallon. Roughly $55 a gallon depending on what line of precat you buy.....of course cheaper if you buy it in a 5 gallon pale. 

Canada is a little tricky. Laws and regulations are different than here in the USA. The labeling in Canada is meant for industry use only on certain commercial products.....mainly sealers, topcoats, and fillers. You could probably go in and buy a gallon of "Merlot" stain without any trouble. Crazy huh??

You also should not have to have a business card to be able to buy commercial products at Sherwin Williams in the USA. However, if you show them a business card they will honor you as a contractor and you will get discounts on each purchase. Cant remember the discount, but its around 20% off.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks guys, not sure what I'm going to so. Steve in a previous post had recommended sherwin's pre cat so I want to get that one. I'm totally new to finishing so I have no experience. It's pretty annoying not to be able to just buy it straight up. Maybe I'll go in and pretend I'm a business client and see if it works.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Just to add to the purchasing side of the thread. I used to buy SW Pre cat for $60 a gal. on a commercial account. Then I found a woodworking supply for the local trades. They sell me Gemini Pre cat for $26 a gal. Gemini is one of the companies that make SW Pre cat lacquer. 

Now I finish for pennies. SW, well it's a nice store.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The sherwin Williams pre cat is good stuff, and in the us you can buy it by the gallon for between 50 & 60 bucks. 

I'm intrigued by the stuff Al is buying however...I may need to check around.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Gemini pre-cat is factory catalyzed so you don't have to worry about adding catalyst, just be aware of the shelf life. We recently purchased an air assisted airless and are switching over to conversion varnish, but Gemini will remain our go-to lacquer for smaller projects.


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## daveinjersey (Feb 27, 2013)

Not sure this is relevant, but when I was trying to get some SW grain filler not too long ago, my local SW paint store warned me I might need to order 4 gallons (and one is _way_ more than I'll ever use). Then they directed me to the nearest SW industrial products store. _They_ were happy to order me a single gallon. When they asked for my company name and I explained I had none, they had no problem writing it up with some sort of DIY code or something.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Gemini is one of the companies that make SW Pre cat lacquer.
> Al


  No. 

Gemini is a family owned business out of OK and is in no way connected to Sherwin Williams in OH. Sherwin Williams makes Sherwin Williams products.

Gemini is a good product, but I know we have taken over customers who used Gemini products in the past due to the fact that Gemini pre-cat clear and black pigmented lacquers just don't lay down as good as Sherwin Williams pre cats do, even when butyl acetate is added to the Gemini for better flow properties. It also takes 3 coats of Gemini to equal 2 coats of Sherwin Williams precat lacquer because of the solid content.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

daveinjersey said:


> Not sure this is relevant, but when I was trying to get some SW grain filler not too long ago, my local SW paint store warned me I might need to order 4 gallons (and one is _way_ more than I'll ever use). Then they directed me to the nearest SW industrial products store. _They_ were happy to order me a single gallon. When they asked for my company name and I explained I had none, they had no problem writing it up with some sort of DIY code or something.


True. If you want latex, oil, enamel, and other PAINTS.....go to a SW store.

If you want finishing products like fillers, sealers. lacquers, conversion varnish etc, go to the SW industrial store.

Want to paint a car? Go to the SW automotive store. Very good waterbourne paints and are now the official paint of NASCAR.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

I actually found a place and I can get target wb lacquer. Anyone have good experience with it? I have read wb lacquers are getting closer to solvent. True?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> I actually found a place and I can get target wb lacquer. Anyone have good experience with it? I have read wb lacquers are getting closer to solvent. True?


Havent used Target, but yes, waterbourne paints are great. Only down fall is they spray different from solvent base. You have to spray with WB for awhile to get used to it and get a feel for it. Its a little harder to see lay down then a wet coat of solvent based lacquer.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> No.
> 
> Gemini is a family owned business out of OK and is in no way connected to Sherwin Williams in OH. Sherwin Williams makes Sherwin Williams products.
> 
> Gemini is a good product, but I know we have taken over customers who used Gemini products in the past due to the fact that Gemini pre-cat clear and black pigmented lacquers just don't lay down as good as Sherwin Williams pre cats do, even when butyl acetate is added to the Gemini for better flow properties. It also takes 3 coats of Gemini to equal 2 coats of Sherwin Williams precat lacquer because of the solid content.


 Not to hijack a thread, but I will anyway............

Your experience with Gemini is the exact opposite of mine. I found the SW pre-cat to be extremely difficult to get an even flow while the Gemini comes out glass smooth. I liked the build with Gemini far more than the SW. This was using a HVLP gravity feed.

I was using the SW ProBuild. Are you using a different product?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

wericha said:


> Not to hijack a thread, but I will anyway............
> 
> Your experience with Gemini is the exact opposite of mine. I found the SW pre-cat to be extremely difficult to get an even flow while the Gemini comes out glass smooth. I liked the build with Gemini far more than the SW. This was using a HVLP gravity feed.
> 
> I was using the SW ProBuild. Are you using a different product?


Ive used them all, LOL.

What tip size are you using with the Gemini vs the ProBuild? 

As I mentioned earlier, the high build SW line is higher in solid content, (Probuild is around 24% solids where Gemini is around 18% to 20%) so you would need at least a 1.8 tip with your HVLP gravity gun to get an effective spray with the ProBuild. I don't recommend ProBuild in any mom and pop shops. However, you can reduce the ProBuild with 25% butyl acetate and you should be fine with a smaller tip, say a 1.4 tip.

I challenge you to try any of the SW Pre-cat T77F series line. You can easily use it with a 1.4 tip.......you will fall in love.


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## MSLiechty (Aug 13, 2014)

Get target WB and don't look back 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> No.
> 
> Gemini is a family owned business out of OK and is in no way connected to Sherwin Williams in OH. Sherwin Williams makes Sherwin Williams products.
> 
> Gemini is a good product, but I know we have taken over customers who used Gemini products in the past due to the fact that Gemini pre-cat clear and black pigmented lacquers just don't lay down as good as Sherwin Williams pre cats do, even when butyl acetate is added to the Gemini for better flow properties. It also takes 3 coats of Gemini to equal 2 coats of Sherwin Williams precat lacquer because of the solid content.


Gemini does make products for Sherwin Williams. I was at their Dallas plant one day and they were putting Sherwin Williams labels on their cans of lacquer.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Gemini does make products for Sherwin Williams. I was at their Dallas plant one day and they were putting Sherwin Williams labels on their cans of lacquer.


 What you saw was a raw material that goes into some of Sherwin Williams paints. A while back we used to get a lacquer base that went into our OPEX line, but we no longer use Gemini for that base. They would apply a Sherwin Williams label that could be recognized in the warehouse which has to be given a 6 digit raw code that can be pulled when making the formulas.

Gemini also sells liquid raws to AKZO and Valspar. Gemini does not make straight rex lacquers that you would buy in a Sherwin Williams store. such as precats, etc. Sherwin Williams makes all their industrial coatings themselves. Its just like we buy raw materials from BASF, but BASF does not make the final product, Sherwin Williams uses that raw to make the final Sherwin williams product. 

A lot of that goes on in the chemical world. Just like when I mentioned awhile back about Walmart selling "color places" which is actually Sherwin Williams paint, but is not labeled with their name on it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> What you saw was a raw material that goes into some of Sherwin Williams paints. A while back we used to get a lacquer base that went into our OPEX line, but we no longer use Gemini for that base. They would apply a Sherwin Williams label that could be recognized in the warehouse which has to be given a 6 digit raw code that can be pulled when making the formulas.
> 
> Gemini also sells liquid raws to AKZO and Valspar. Gemini does not make straight rex lacquers that you would buy in a Sherwin Williams store. such as precats, etc. Sherwin Williams makes all their industrial coatings themselves. Its just like we buy raw materials from BASF, but BASF does not make the final product, Sherwin Williams uses that raw to make the final Sherwin williams product.
> 
> A lot of that goes on in the chemical world. Just like when I mentioned awhile back about Walmart selling "color places" which is actually Sherwin Williams paint, but is not labeled with their name on it.


What I saw was them cutting the L-93-3 labels off their cans and putting Promar Semi-Gloss Labels on the cans.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Actually my favorite is Mohawk. But my main supplier dropped it for Gemini. So when I want Mohawk I pay $28 instead of $26. Still keeping me out of the SW store and happy with the product. 

Al


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> What I saw was them cutting the L-93-3 labels off their cans and putting Promar Semi-Gloss Labels on the cans.



And probably what you didn't see was them more than likely label the cans wrong in the first place (it does happen), tear off the label, and then they had to go back and put the correct Sherwin Williams labels on the cans to be sent to Roanoke Virginia to be added to the paint.......that's the plant where Sherwin Williams makes the Provar line. I can assure you, Gemini does not make Promar or any other product that leaves the Gemini plant and goes straight to the Sherwin Williams store. 

Sherwin Williams makes almost all of their industrial clear coats in Greensboro NC, which has absolutely NO Gemini products in their batches made. 

My point to begin with was Gemini does not make precat lacquers for Sherwin Williams. There are no Gemini products that are put into any of the Sherwin Williams products that are used in the furniture manufacturing world that are in the Sherwin Williams Industrial store where the sell wipe stains, sealers, topcoats, emulsion, etc. I should know.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Actually my favorite is Mohawk. But my main supplier dropped it for Gemini. So when I want Mohawk I pay $28 instead of $26. Still keeping me out of the SW store and happy with the product.
> 
> Al


Mohawk is good stuff. 

They make a clear no blush that I use religiously while touching up furniture in the High Point and Las Vegas showrooms. Touch up markers too.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

RandyReed said:


> Mohawk is good stuff.
> 
> They make a clear no blush that I use religiously while touching up furniture in the High Point and Las Vegas showrooms. Touch up markers too.


So is Konig. I use a combination of both products for my touch ups.

Konig North America


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

We're transitioning to Valspar conversion varnish for most of our projects applied with a Kremlin air assisted airless. For tinted lacquers we are currently using Gemini applied with gravity feed HVLP, but really need to upgrade that application method as the excessive thinning required for the gravity feed is counter productive. We've been seriously a dedicated airless for the tinted projects.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Solvent based products "till they pry them from my cold dead hands".

Al


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> So is Konig. I use a combination of both products for my touch ups.
> 
> Konig North America


Yep. I actually have one of the wooden travel cases Konig gave me as a gift. It has dyes, touch up markers, liquid sand paper, and even the propane burn in torch. 

Even though they said you can fade in a repair on UV topcoats with some of the lacquer type touch up solvents they offer, I never saw anyone who could repair a UV spot and not be able to tell it.......not even the traveling Konig repair/salesman. But Konig is good stuff.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> And probably what you didn't see was them more than likely label the cans wrong in the first place (it does happen), tear off the label, and then they had to go back and put the correct Sherwin Williams labels on the cans to be sent to Roanoke Virginia to be added to the paint.......that's the plant where Sherwin Williams makes the Provar line. I can assure you, Gemini does not make Promar or any other product that leaves the Gemini plant and goes straight to the Sherwin Williams store.
> 
> Sherwin Williams makes almost all of their industrial clear coats in Greensboro NC, which has absolutely NO Gemini products in their batches made.
> 
> My point to begin with was Gemini does not make precat lacquers for Sherwin Williams. There are no Gemini products that are put into any of the Sherwin Williams products that are used in the furniture manufacturing world that are in the Sherwin Williams Industrial store where the sell wipe stains, sealers, topcoats, emulsion, etc. I should know.


I find it hard to believe gemini was selling gallon cans to sherwin williams as raw materials. There was always a multitude of different products on skids marked to go to sherwin williams. It was just the Promar Semi-Gloss Lacquer that caught my eye. Anyway what would they be doing with the can labels if they weren't selling to sherwin williams?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I find it hard to believe gemini was selling gallon cans to sherwin williams as raw materials. There was always a multitude of different products on skids marked to go to sherwin williams. It was just the Promar Semi-Gloss Lacquer that caught my eye. Anyway what would they be doing with the can labels if they weren't selling to sherwin williams?


Again, they are selling lacquer bases that goes in certain Sherwin williams paints in the paint stores. It might say that on the Gemini website. They do not make paints for Sherwin Williams that go straight to the Sherwin Williams paint store shelves. Do you honestly think that Sherwin-Williams would allow Gemini to just stock Sherwin-Williams shelves with paint products that have not gone through a Sherwin-Williams QC lab????? The answer to that is NO. That would be like me saying "Hey Steve, mix me up some red paint for my number one client, put my name on it, and send it straight to them without me checking to see if it's the right shade of red." I guess Sherwin-Williams, an 8.5 billion dollar company, must really trust Gemini coatings huh?

They also supply AKZO and Valspar with lacquer bases for their paints as well.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

Do you honestly think that Sherwin-Williams would allow Gemini to just stock Sherwin-Williams shelves with paint products that have not gone through a Sherwin-Williams QC lab????? The answer to that is NO. That would be like me saying "Hey Steve said:



> With the trend in the US for corporations to outsource jobs, cut specs which compromise quality, MAXIMIZE profits for shareholders, do away with "Steve's" mom and pop operation, my answer is very possibly yes.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

bzguy said:


> With the trend in the US for corporations to outsource jobs, cut specs which compromise quality, MAXIMIZE profits for shareholders, do away with "Steve's" mom and pop operation, my answer is very possibly yes.


Sherwin-Williams BUYS companies......they don't out source company's to make their paint. If Gemini actually made Sherwin-Williams paint......Sherwin-Williams would own Gemini.

In just the past 3 years, Sherwin-Williams has bought sayerlack out of italy and Becker chroma out of germany......and is currently working on a deal with comex out of mexico. All 3 of these companies are worth millions of dollars.

You are correct in a sense. Gemini makes certain lacquer base materials cheaper than sherwin williams can. So why not get it from them??? BUT, with that being said, do you think Sherwin-Williams would let a smaller company put labels on their paint and put it on their shelves without them even looking at it??? If you guys would do that, you would not be in business for long.

I can most definitely assure you that doesn't happen.

Go here http://www.gemini-coatings.com/index.php?corporate/msds-pds-search and do a search for "Promar" or whatever other product you think they make for Sherwin Williams. If they indeed make it and ship it, *BY LAW*, it has to have a MSDS on it in case there is a spill while making, filling, or transporting the product......I bet you dont find it.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

A little back to original post...if I spray wb lacquer, I won't be as likely to blow myself up right? Target em6000 is not flammable but just checking once atomized would things change. Home built spray both with some ventilation. Would those 500w halogen work lights be a problem? I'm only spraying a small table. 

"Honey, I've got good news and bad news. Good news is table is done....bad news is you better grab the kids and start running."


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> A little back to original post...if I spray wb lacquer, I won't be as likely to blow myself up right? Target em6000 is not flammable but just checking once atomized would things change. Home built spray both with some ventilation. Would those 500w halogen work lights be a problem? I'm only spraying a small table.
> 
> "Honey, I've got good news and bad news. Good news is table is done....bad news is you better grab the kids and start running."


Your fine, WB is non flammable. If it was, it would have a flammable sticker on the can.

Now there are WB soluble stains that are solvent based stains made with WB dyes.....but thats not what you have. Your safe.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Actually, those lights *CAN* be a problem.

They put out a lot of radiant heat. That can easily result in an uneven surface temperature of your table, which can easily result in an uneven finish. You need good lighting to see how well you're spraying, but try to find a different light source. We use an adjustable flood light stand to give a raking light, but they are not halogen and are a good distance away.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I didn't really read into the "light" part.

Seems like that would be alot of heat. I don't know how you have them setup, but I would definitely make sure that the heat generated from the lights doesn't obscure the table top in any way. That amount of heat could definitely cause a finish problem if the substrate becomes too hot, but I don't see it catching on fire with the WB.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for the answers, I'll be building my spray booth over the next couple of days while I wait for the wb lacquer to arrive (pricey...after shipping and taxes it came to $82 for a gallon, going to have to figure out a cheaper way to get it.... but the guys at wood essence were helpful).


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Again, they are selling lacquer bases that goes in certain Sherwin williams paints in the paint stores. It might say that on the Gemini website. They do not make paints for Sherwin Williams that go straight to the Sherwin Williams paint store shelves. Do you honestly think that Sherwin-Williams would allow Gemini to just stock Sherwin-Williams shelves with paint products that have not gone through a Sherwin-Williams QC lab????? The answer to that is NO. That would be like me saying "Hey Steve, mix me up some red paint for my number one client, put my name on it, and send it straight to them without me checking to see if it's the right shade of red." I guess Sherwin-Williams, an 8.5 billion dollar company, must really trust Gemini coatings huh?
> 
> They also supply AKZO and Valspar with lacquer bases for their paints as well.


I can't think anything else when I walk into their warehouse and see workers labeling cans and a truckload of different products labeled for retail sale with a sign on the top marked Sherwin Williams. Now it's been a couple of years since I've been to Gemini since they moved the Dallas plant to Corsicana and Sherwin Williams may not buy from them any more but they certainly did then. Anyway Gemini is a reputable company I'm sure could make products to Sherwin Williams specifications.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I can't think anything else when I walk into their warehouse and see workers labeling cans and a truckload of different products labeled for retail sale with a sign on the top marked Sherwin Williams. Now it's been a couple of years since I've been to Gemini since they moved the Dallas plant to Corsicana and Sherwin Williams may not buy from them any more but they certainly did then. Anyway Gemini is a reputable company I'm sure could make products to Sherwin Williams specifications.


I am more than positive Gemini coatings could make paint to Sherwin Williams specs or any other companies specs, but Sherwin Williams would have to QC it and OK the paint before it goes on their shelves.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

With all due respect Randy you said yourself you work for an 8 billion dollar corporation, that kind of excludes you as credible source in the 21rst Century Corporate State of America.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

bzguy said:


> with all due respect randy you said yourself you work for an 8 billion dollar corporation, that kind of excludes you as credible source in the 21rst century corporate state of america.


 huh??????


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

wericha said:


> huh??????


Huh what?
Google it, he's in charge of quality control for a mega-corp, it's his job to make them look good in spite of facts he may not even be aware of.
Do you think that everyone who works for Haliburton gets a memo when they reach into their bag of dirty tricks?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

was2ndlast said:


> A little back to original post...if I spray wb lacquer, I won't be as likely to blow myself up right? Target em6000 is not flammable but just checking once atomized would things change. Home built spray both with some ventilation. Would those 500w halogen work lights be a problem? I'm only spraying a small table.
> 
> "Honey, I've got good news and bad news. Good news is table is done....bad news is you better grab the kids and start running."


There is no danger in spraying water based lacquer unless you include too much elbow grease. You might have some of the finish settle and stick to the 500w light and have to clean the glass with a solvent when it cools off but otherwise won't hurt anything. 

Another thing not discussed is with conventional lacquer on a day with little wind it dries so fast you could spray it out in your driveway with great results. I recently refinished a kitchen where I removed the doors and drawers and sprayed them behind the customers house near the pool and everything went fine.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

My problem is right now, it's already below 65F and humidity is high.....and will be going forward so I'm afraid of excessive moisture getting trapped. Therefore, will be spraying in my unfinished basement in a booth.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

was2ndlast said:


> My problem is right now, it's already below 65F and humidity is high.....and will be going forward so I'm afraid of excessive moisture getting trapped. Therefore, will be spraying in my unfinished basement in a booth.


65% humidity isn't too bad. If you are refering to water based lacquer it really isn't lacquer but closer to poly-crylic. Usually it isn't a problem until it reaches 70%. When the humidity is borderline high and the finish blushes a little you can add retarder thinner to conventional lacquer and it will slow down the drying and let the moisture get out. With a water based lacquer you use a water based retarder which is ethylene glycol.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

bzguy said:


> Huh what?
> Google it, he's in charge of quality control for a mega-corp, it's his job to make them look good in spite of facts he may not even be aware of.
> Do you think that everyone who works for Haliburton gets a memo when they reach into their bag of dirty tricks?


I'm in charge of quality control???? :no:

I used to work in the lab for AKZO Nobel and the national woodlab for Sherwin Williams. I tested paints and formulated industrial coatings. In saying that, Im pretty sure I know who does what and where. Now I am currently a color stylist and I match colors on different substrates for different customers and also come up with new finishing styles and techniques for both the residential furniture and kitchen cabinet industry. So there ya go. 

I never said I know what all goes on behind closed doors, but I do know the bottom line of what has to happen before our products go to sales. The only thing that I was actually correcting in the first place was when it was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that Gemini makes Sherwin Williams precat lacquers.....which they DO NOT. Sherwin Williams makes all precat lacquers, sealers, and other clear coats in Greensboro NC on Stagecoach trail road. 

There is no other chemical company, including Gemini coatings, who makes Sherwin WIlliams formulas, puts it in a can, and it goes straight to a Sherwin Williams store and sits on their shelf. PERIOD.

PS......I cant believe you actually "googled" me, wow.


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

PS......I cant believe you actually "googled" me said:


> I use google 20 times a day, best thing since sliced bread, actually better!
> Are you actually insulted or something?
> You go on about an 8.5 billion dollar company to a bunch of middle class workers who just took another permanent beating from corporate thieves.
> SW is a publicly traded Fortune 500 company, probably has a board of directors with similar business ethics as Walmart.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

bzguy said:


> I use google 20 times a day, best thing since sliced bread, actually better!
> Are you actually insulted or something?
> You go on about an 8.5 billion dollar company to a bunch of middle class workers who just took another permanent beating from corporate thieves.
> SW is a publicly traded Fortune 500 company, probably has a board of directors with similar business ethics as Walmart.


So your saying Sherwin-Williams caused middle class workers to take a beating??? WTH? Are you serious??? 

The fact that of the 20 times you use google a day and 1 of those times you googled my name does not insult me.....it's just weird.....and you still got my occupation wrong.

Sherwin-Williams, and Valspar to name another company, supplies numerous mom and pop shops and those shops do rather well.....so that's another false statement made by you.

Since you like to google, look up and show me where Gemini makes Sherwin-Williams paint since you said "my answer is very possibly yes".

Then search for reasons why you shouldn't post in a topic where you have no idea what your talking about.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I used lacquer for over 30 yrs, switched to conversion varnish
about 3 yrs ago.
I'll never use lacquer again, I don't know why anyone would.
I now see why most all the professional cabinet makers use it.
Ten times more durable too.

http://www.worldpaintsupply.com/categories/Paints,-Stains-and-Coatings/Lacquers-and-Topcoats/


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> I used lacquer for over 30 yrs, switched to conversion varnish
> about 3 yrs ago.
> I'll never use lacquer again, I don't know why anyone would.
> I now see why most all the professional cabinet makers use it.
> ...


I always suggest conversion varnish for kitchen and bathroom cabinets. Durable and moisture resistant.......also sands way better than than most lacquers.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I used to think conversion varnish was more expensive
but now that I see how much less it takes compared to
lacquer I believe it's actually cheaper in the long run.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> I used to think conversion varnish was more expensive
> but now that I see how much less it takes compared to
> lacquer I believe it's actually cheaper in the long run.


Just depends on how you spray and use it.

Lacquer tends to loose alot of its solid content while curing. Conversion varnish doesnt loose nearly as much due to the added catalyst added by the spray operator which helps it cure harder quicker.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

There will always be some pre-cat in my shop (threw out all the simple nitro long ago) for small quick finishes. As much as I love cv, it's not worth the hassle to mix up a batch to quickly finish a small item especially since converting over to AAA.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Question about wb lacquer. What are the benefits of thinning it before spraying it ( assuming your gun can handle the viscosity)? The guys at wood essence actually recommended me not to thin it. Even when using it as a sealer.

For a newbie like me, is it better to do more thinner coats versus less full coats?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> Question about wb lacquer. What are the benefits of thinning it before spraying it ( assuming your gun can handle the viscosity)? The guys at wood essence actually recommended me not to thin it. Even when using it as a sealer.
> 
> For a newbie like me, is it better to do more thinner coats versus less full coats?


If your gun can handle the viscosity of the WB coatings then I would not think it with water either. However, You would need about a 1.8 tip for your gun.

If you have to thin it, I wouldnt go over 25% with water, if that. You might want to start at 15% and see how that works. Water thins it very fast, so it doesnt take much.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sometimes when you thin a finish especially if you over-thin it it screws with the integrity of the finish and at least screws up the sheen. Also when you thin a finish it is more likely to run on vertical surfaces. It's always best to thin as little as possible.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Of course I need a 1.8 tip.......because I only own a 1.5 and 2.0. 

Hahahaha....of course........


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The 2.0 would work. All you need is a larger orifice to spray thicker material and the 2.0 is bigger than the 1.8.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks Steve. Will do so, likely next weekish. Finishing booth right now.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> Thanks Steve. Will do so, likely next weekish. Finishing booth right now.


2.0 will work just fine. You might even have to "choke down" the trigger slightly and sneak up on it until you find that perfect fan pattern that everyone looks for.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for all the input. Once I finish I will post pictures of the results, good or bad and yes even ugly.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

RandyReed said:


> Just depends on how you spray and use it.
> 
> Lacquer tends to loose alot of its solid content while curing. Conversion varnish doesnt loose nearly as much due to the added catalyst added by the spray operator which helps it cure harder quicker.


Neither looses it's solids when drying or curing, what it looses is its
solvents, and lacquers have a lot less solids and a lot more 
solvents. the solids are what is left behind.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> Neither looses it's solids when drying or curing, what it looses is its
> solvents, and lacquers have a lot less solids and a lot more
> solvents. the solids are what is left behind.


Not true. There are some High Build lacquers that contain more solids than some post cat lacquers and some conversion varnishes. 

Some of the resins "stick" to the solvents in the formula while evaporating, not much, but a little do. When we test post cats, we run a test first not adding a catalyst and the second test we add the catalyst, then we average the solid content. The post cat with no catalyst added ALWAYS looses more of its solid content than the one that had the catalyst added. So..... yes it does. Of course it takes longer for the post cat to dry without adding the catalyst, but we only do it for test purposes.

The catalyst "kick starts" the clear into hardening faster not giving it as much time to loose its solid content through the evaporation process. Which makes total sense if you think about it.

Dont believe me? If you know how to check solids, take some wiping stain and find out the solids, either testing or looking up the solids on the PDS. Now put naptha in it 1:1, stir it up, then let the naptha evaporate for a week and recheck the solids.....it will be lower.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Not true. There are some High Build lacquers that contain more solids than some post cat lacquers and some conversion varnishes.
> 
> Some of the resins "stick" to the solvents in the formula while evaporating, not much, but a little do. When we test post cats, we run a test first not adding a catalyst and the second test we add the catalyst, then we average the solid content. The post cat with no catalyst added ALWAYS looses more of its solid content than the one that had the catalyst added. So..... yes it does. Of course it takes longer for the post cat to dry without adding the catalyst, but we only do it for test purposes.
> 
> ...


I don't buy it. Solids are solids. When you measure the solids in precat with and without the hardener you are measuring the solids in the hardener. If you allow the hardener to evaporate there will be a residue, the solids left behind.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't buy it. Solids are solids. When you measure the solids in precat with and without the hardener you are measuring the solids in the hardener. If you allow the hardener to evaporate there will be a residue, the solids left behind.


What? I said Post cats not pre cats, but you can catalyze a precat for faster dry time and help harden the finish. And there are solids left behind once the solvents have evaporated whether it has the hardener in it or not. But, thats also why we do an average because the catalyst ADDS around 2% solid content to a post cat. If you weight out the same amount of post cat, one with the catalyst added and one without the catalyst added in a lab pan, reduce it slightly with the same amount of MEK (which is what you have to do to speed up the process) put it in an oven at 120* for an hour, re-weight each pan and do the math you will see that the one with no catalyst is usually comes out around 4-6% less solids than the one with the cataylst added to it. Ive seen it happen in the lab for years while testing batches. 

Take a 1/2 pint of sealer, say a 24% sealer and reduce it 1:1 with acetone which is now a 12% washcoat. Let it sit for 3 to 4 days to allow the acetone to evaporate. Then what you will have is a thick sealer which is now around 22% solids because you have lost 2% solids along with the acetone, and then you will still have to add some solvent to adjust the viscosity back to where it was originally which will make the solids go even lower. If you know how to do theatricals, you can do the math that way as well and see what Im talking about.

For the record, the hardener (which is an acid) doesnt evaporate. Only the solvents in the formula do along with a slight amount of the resins in the formula, which I mentioned above. You leave the top off of a catalyst it will just harden up or "gell", but does not evaporate. The "hotter" the catalyst, the faster it will harden.

Even the raw material resins have some solvents in them. Take a drum of a raw Acrylic resin, leave the top off of it for a day or 2 and you have lost solids. Its a fact.

And I quote from one of my lab books, "In simple terms, most solids become part of a solution when solvents are added because their individual molecules are pried-apart or simply cut-loose from one another. Once a solution is formed, individual molecules of the solvent and solute are in suspension, free to roam about and even evaporate."

Only a UV rollcoat sealer retains all of its solid content from application to final cure rate.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

All I know is it takes many coats of lacquer to get a build even close
to the 3 coats of conversion varnish I spray.
I use way less conversion varnish. Way less.
(that's all that matters to me)


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> What? I said Post cats not pre cats, but you can catalyze a precat for faster dry time and help harden the finish. And there are solids left behind once the solvents have evaporated whether it has the hardener in it or not. But, thats also why we do an average because the catalyst ADDS around 2% solid content to a post cat. If you weight out the same amount of post cat, one with the catalyst added and one without the catalyst added in a lab pan, reduce it slightly with the same amount of MEK (which is what you have to do to speed up the process) put it in an oven at 120* for an hour, re-weight each pan and do the math you will see that the one with no catalyst is usually comes out around 4-6% less solids than the one with the cataylst added to it. Ive seen it happen in the lab for years while testing batches.
> 
> Take a 1/2 pint of sealer, say a 24% sealer and reduce it 1:1 with acetone which is now a 12% washcoat. Let it sit for 3 to 4 days to allow the acetone to evaporate. Then what you will have is a thick sealer which is now around 22% solids because you have lost 2% solids along with the acetone, and then you will still have to add some solvent to adjust the viscosity back to where it was originally which will make the solids go even lower. If you know how to do theatricals, you can do the math that way as well and see what Im talking about.
> 
> ...


My point is if you took the ingredients of 1/2 pint of what ever lacquer and measured it by weight and then mixed it with a solvent and allowed the solution to completely dry and cure it would weigh the same. No solids lost. The first thing that would happen is the solids would go to the bottom of the container and the solvents would suspend on top and evaporate.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> My point is if you took the ingredients of 1/2 pint of what ever lacquer and measured it by weight and then mixed it with a solvent and allowed the solution to completely dry and cure it would weigh the same. No solids lost. The first thing that would happen is the solids would go to the bottom of the container and the solvents would suspend on top and evaporate.


LOL. I dont understand how you come to that conclusion......

If you took the "ingredients of 1/2 pint of whatever lacquer and measured it by weight"......*and dont put any solvent in it*......and let it completely dry, you will have less weight because what solvents is already in the lacquer will evaporate along with a slight amount of the solids attached to the evaporated solvents. In turn, if you did an NVM check, you will see its lower than when you started.

Say its 24% sealer......let it evaporate to its nothing more than a solid. Then measure the solid content it will be less.

Depending on what type of topcoat your spraying, may take days to finally cure. Even when you think its dry, its still omitting solvents, along with some solids, to a degree.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

http://www.answers.com/Q/Do_solids_evaporate


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> http://www.answers.com/Q/Do_solids_evaporate


Thanks. 

And also "dry cotton" which is made into nitrocellulose lacquer when melted or dissolved by active solvents and other raw materials also enters a sublimation state when left open to air. Also very flammable and toxic to lungs if inhaled. 

Dry cotton is like "Gun Powder".

You can also pour mineral spirits into lacquer and the cotton will rise to the top. I once saw a person take the melted cotton and lay it on pavement, light it, and it burnt a hole into the pavement. Burns VERY hot.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

A catalyst is different than a hardener. The catalyst starts a chemical reaction causing heat that cures the finish (like conversion varnish). A hardener (like isocyanate) cross links with the finish over time to make it harder.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> A catalyst is different than a hardener. The catalyst starts a chemical reaction causing heat that cures the finish (like conversion varnish). A hardener (like isocyanate) cross links with the finish over time to make it harder.


A hardner *IS* a type of catalyst.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

All the solvent based conversion varnishes I've checked have iso's in them,
which makes them very dangerous to apply and should be used with the
right breathing protection equipment.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> All the solvent based conversion varnishes I've checked have iso's in them,
> which makes them very dangerous to apply and should be used with the
> right breathing protection equipment.


Your right.

Any nitro sealer or nitro lacquer you spray should be well ventilated as well. I suggest that with any finish.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> LOL. I dont understand how you come to that conclusion......
> 
> If you took the "ingredients of 1/2 pint of whatever lacquer and measured it by weight"......*and dont put any solvent in it*......and let it completely dry, you will have less weight because what solvents is already in the lacquer will evaporate along with a slight amount of the solids attached to the evaporated solvents. In turn, if you did an NVM check, you will see its lower than when you started.
> 
> ...


This is what I don't agree with. The amount of solids that might attach to the solvents is so microscopic it is of no use to anyone using the product. What painter is going to miss a couple parts per million that might float away. It's not like you have to put 4 mils of finish on to get 3 mils of solids that stay.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> It's not like you have to put 4 mils of finish on to get 3 mils of solids that stay.


 No Steve, You put on 4 mils, you get 2 mils to stay, and depending on what you are using, you can loose more than that. Conversion varnish keeps the most, Nitrocellulose lacquer looses the most.

3-4 wet mils is about the thickness of a sheet of paper. When you apply 6 mils of nitro lacquer, after *FULL CURE*, which could be days, or even weeks, or even months, you end up with 3 mils tops. Actually, nitro lacquer never FULLY cures. Rule of thumb, you loose half the mils of what you apply. Another thing to remember is.....if you can smell it.....its still evaporating. Thats why you see some of the old school finishers "smell" a step panel when they take it out of an oven. If it has a smell, they put it back in the oven for 5-10 more minutes. I had to ask a guy that 15+ years ago because I didnt know what in the world he was doing! Also the higher the boiling point, the longer it takes to evaporate.

Thats why its important, especially in the furniture finishing industry, that each spray operator apply the correct amount of mils for each product being use. Thats also why they use wet film thickness gauges to measure the amount of material being applied. Thats also why there are product data sheets on each material that states how thick each product should be applied. Those things are not made just to be made, they are made so each product can perform at their best.

You said yourself that a solid is a solid and doesnt evaporate......a moth ball is a solid....what does it do when air hits it? It evaporates. 

Nitrocellulose Dry cotton is the same way. Not all solids evaporate, but among some that do, nitrocellulose cotton is one of them that do. If you dont believe that, then ok.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Hold on I'm going for popcorn.

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> No Steve, You put on 4 mils, you get 2 mils to stay, and depending on what you are using, you can loose more than that. Conversion varnish keeps the most, Nitrocellulose lacquer looses the most.
> 
> 3-4 wet mils is about the thickness of a sheet of paper. When you apply 6 mils of nitro lacquer, after *FULL CURE*, which could be days, or even weeks, or even months, you end up with 3 mils tops. Actually, nitro lacquer never FULLY cures. Rule of thumb, you loose half the mils of what you apply. Another thing to remember is.....if you can smell it.....its still evaporating. Thats why you see some of the old school finishers "smell" a step panel when they take it out of an oven. If it has a smell, they put it back in the oven for 5-10 more minutes. I had to ask a guy that 15+ years ago because I didnt know what in the world he was doing! Also the higher the boiling point, the longer it takes to evaporate.
> 
> ...


You are describing a condition which in 40 years of spraying lacquer I've never seen. Solids just don't float off the wood, the solvents do. When I spray 3 mils on the furniture I finish there is 3 mils of finish on the furniture when the customer receives it.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> When I spray 3 mils on the furniture I finish there is 3 mils of finish on the furniture when the customer receives it.


Al, I hope that's a small bag of popcorn.....

Steve, No way! Maybe after you spray 2 coats of finish at 3 mil, your customer will have 3 mils of finish left......not after 1 coat. That's not possible.

Skip down to "mil" and tell me what you read, surely your not going to say the great Bob Flexner is wrong too:

http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/finishing/503205-the-a-to-z-guide-to-finishing-vocabulary

When a can says 24% solids, that simply means that is about what you will end up with when cured as far as solids are concerned. When you spray it, you actually have more solids on the surface, roughly 26%-28% and it cures down to 24%. The slower the dry time, the more chance of you loosing more solids when it finally dries out. Thats what I have been saying in this thread. I dont come on here to start debates, when I see someone make an incorrect statement, I just try and correct it if I know its a false statement.

Like I said, its fine if you dont believe that.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

All finishes shrink while curing or drying, some much more than others,
but they all shrink. Solvents evaporating = shrinkage.
I do a lot of car painting, and that's always the concern.
You have to allow longer cure times to allow for the shrinkage
before top coating with another product.
Even after weeks of curing, a real nice rubbed out finish will often
shrink just a little bit more after being in the hot summer sun for a
couple of months. You have to really look for it to see it, but a little
bit of peel will usually come back.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> All finishes shrink while curing or drying, some much more than others,
> but they all shrink. Solvents evaporating = shrinkage.
> I do a lot of car painting, and that's always the concern.
> You have to allow longer cure times to allow for the shrinkage
> ...


Do you watch "overhaulin" with Chip Foose or some of these other shows where they strip a car, do body filler, prime and paint a car in like 4 hours???? HAHA Thats not gonna happen either.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

RandyReed said:


> Do you watch "overhaulin" with Chip Foose or some of these other shows where they strip a car, do body filler, prime and paint a car in like 4 hours???? HAHA Thats not gonna happen either.


Yes, that's TV. & they never have enough time either.
Boyd Cotington shows the same way, I have talked with people
that knew him & his process, he would let cars sit in primer
for a month before painting over it.
But never on TV


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Cars don't have wood grain. They use finish that is cured by heat and leave it at 185 degrees overnight. That is how they can color sand and buff the next day. Guitar makers use UV cured finishes and they can be buffed the same day.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't know any bodyshops that bake cars anymore.
that was back in the enamel days.
That's the whole advantage of the basecoat/clearcoat systems used now,
the clear uses a catalyst that cures instead of drying (like the 1K paints)
it does give off heat in the process, but it doesn't need to be baked.
(Most 2K paints can't be heated very high or it will cause problems.)
I buff my cars out the day after painting too, but they do shrink ever so slightly 
down the road, it's hardly noticeable
but for general collision repair, that's normal.
For high end work, like show cars, they're never buffed so soon.
I do use a short wave light to speed it up sometimes in cooler weather, but you have to be careful, you don't want to trap solvents.
Get to hot and it will blister-guess how I know.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> Cars don't have wood grain. They use finish that is cured by heat and leave it at 185 degrees overnight. That is how they can color sand and buff the next day. Guitar makers use UV cured finishes and they can be buffed the same day.


True, some do. I just saw an episode with overhauling where they shot a challenger in a SATA booth that was not air controled. They sent it out the next day. Lol. TV.

The UV on wood I can understand, but not as much on a car as in painting it and wet sanding the clear the next day. Most of the time your not supposed to even wash one the next day. Some of those they paint early in the morning 3am, and they are loading it up and back to assembly at 8am.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

On TV, they're sometimes not even wearing a respirator when spraying.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Even "IF" they got the clear to be dry enough to wet sand it in about 6 hours.....there's no way they could do body work, seal and primer, then go back and block it, then shoot the base color and color sand it , then go back and apply 3-4 coats of clear, then wet sand and buff.....All in 24 hours. LOL


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Little update, spray booth finished last weekend finally. Had to build it into smaller panels than I originally wanted just so it was modular enough to get into and out of the basement down the stairs.

Fan will exhaust out my back slider, seems to pressurize pretty good. Need to get a couple I lights and I'm ready to screw up my table!

Ok, hopefully not.....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't think I could stay away from the couch if I had one in my finishing department. :laughing:

I think you will find out you will need more filters when you get the booth up and running. It takes more than you think.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't think I could stay away from the couch if I had one in my finishing department. :laughing:
> 
> I think you will find out you will need more filters when you get the booth up and running. It takes more than you think.


More filters and ALOT bigger for me.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Right now it's 8x8 and big enough for my near term projects. This thing is totally scalable providing I have the space. If I need it bigger, I build more panels and voila....8x12 or 12x12 etc etc. 

Steve, how will I be able to tell if I need more filters (other than waking up on the floor covered in lacquer due to oxygen deprivation)?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

was2ndlast said:


> Right now it's 8x8 and big enough for my near term projects. This thing is totally scalable providing I have the space. If I need it bigger, I build more panels and voila....8x12 or 12x12 etc etc.
> 
> Steve, how will I be able to tell if I need more filters (other than waking up on the floor covered in lacquer due to oxygen deprivation)?


 I'm not sure. Unless you have a very little exhaust fan I'm pretty sure you can't get enough air through those two little filters. To make a long story short I have a similar setup for heat rather than paint with a furnace blower drawing air out of the room into my shop. On the door going into the room I cut a hole in the door 24"x30" to filter air coming in. With the door shut the blower can't get enough air to circulate and it's set on a low speed. Right now I'm having to leave the door open for the thing to work. I need to cut a second 24"x30" hole in that door.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Ok Steve, here is my final approach. Let me know if it sounds ok. Using a wb lacquer. 

- sealer coat will be a 10% thinned of the lacquer (thinning with distilled water). 
- raise grain, let dry 20 or so minutes and sand with 220-400
- vacuum/tack cloth dust and then shoot first wet coat, let dry 30-40 minutes
- 'buff' out using 0000 steel wool
- shoot next wet coat, follow same process as above
- shoot final coat...no buffing
- let dry a couple of days

I am guessing at this as I have never done it. If this looks wrong, please be candid. 






I will be putting in 4 more filters and see how that works.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

I'd use an equivalent scotch brite pad instead of steel wool. Any tiny bit of steel wool left over will react to the moisture and rust.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> Ok Steve, here is my final approach. Let me know if it sounds ok. Using a wb lacquer.
> 
> - sealer coat will be a 10% thinned of the lacquer (thinning with distilled water).
> - raise grain, let dry 20 or so minutes and sand with 220-400
> ...


1. Thin WB with 10%-20% water....depends on your gun tip size.
2. Shoot first coat. Make sure coat is completely dry, then scuff sand with 320 grit paper.
3. blow off, tack cloth.
4. shoot next coat. Let dry completely, then scuff sand with 240-280 grit paper.
5. blow off, tack cloth.
6. Apply last coat and be amazed.

I wouldnt use steel wool or scotch brite.......use stearated sandpaper 

Just make your spray passes the exact same way you would with a lacquer. WB sealers and lacquers are hard to see spray on and you can apply too much if your not careful.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't care for using steel wool between coats. Steel wool is dirty. It breaks down and leaves steal particles all over your work to clean off and is especially bad when working with waterborne finishes as you get rust under the finish. If it were me I would use 220 grit or finer sandpaper. 

Cleaning is good before putting another coat on however I don't like tack clothes. It tends to leave some of the goo behind to get embedded in the finish. I would rather use compressed air and a clean lint free cloth.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't care for using steel wool between coats. Steel wool is dirty. It breaks down and leaves steal particles all over your work to clean off and is especially bad when working with waterborne finishes as you get rust under the finish. If it were me I would use 220 grit or finer sandpaper.
> 
> Cleaning is good before putting another coat on however I don't like tack clothes. It tends to leave some of the goo behind to get embedded in the finish. I would rather use compressed air and a clean lint free cloth.


LOL, we answered that about the same time. 

I use tack cloth and it works well as long as you dont press down too hard while wiping. Just enough to get the dust off!

If I use steel wool to high lite areas in between coats, I also use a clean paint brush and brush it clean then blow it off again to remove the pieces of steel wool left behind.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks gents...I've got a separate test piece that I have prepped exactly as my table and will start shooting the first couple of coats tonight to see what happens. I'm going to use a 2.0 tip so I will thin ~10%. 

Wish me luck. First time spraying ( insert nervous laughter)...


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## FaithWoodcraft (Nov 19, 2014)

Watching your thread as in the next few weeks I want to do exactly as you're doing.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I use Endust on clean shop rags to tack off the
finish with.

Never a problem with fish eyes or any other
contamination so don't even bring that up.
Been using Endust for over 10 yrs now for my
car painting and wood finishing.
Works better than tack cloths and removes static.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

JCCLARK said:


> I use Endust on clean shop rags to tack off the
> finish with.
> 
> Never a problem with fish eyes or any other
> ...


Not going to disagree, but I will share a story..........

A few years ago, a customer brought me 2 end tables that she wanted in a darker finish and a higher sheen. I sanded down the end tables and applied a toner and fish eyes appeared. I couldnt figure out what happened. After several tries and sanding/washing off the toner, I washed the table down with naptha, blew it dry, and applied the toner. No fish eyes. Several weeks later she brought back a coffee table she wanted painted black......I went through the same problem. Come to find out after talking to her son that his father who built the furniture, and had past away, used Endust just as you described in between coats as he had watched his dad for many years in his shop do that.

The moral of the story is this. If you ever have to refinish one of your projects that you have used Endust on, it will fish eye on you. When you finish a project, you can actually use a fish eye eliminator, flow additive, or whatever you want to call it......its all silicone which you add at around 5% and you can get a good finish. The problem is when you go back to refinish it, those products are trapped in the pores and will show up when you apply a finish. You will have to wash it down real good with naptha before applying a finish, and thats why now I have learned to wipe things down with naptha before trying to refinish anything.

Blowing the piece off with compressed air at 90 or above psi and using a clean brush is the best thing to use to remove dust.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is no silicone in end dust to cause fish eye. The only chemical in it that might cause a problem with a finish would be cloriform. Off hand I can think of a reaction that might cause. Still it runs me the wrong way to put any chemical on a piece that I am finishing.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> There is no silicone in end dust to cause fish eye. The only chemical in it that might cause a problem with a finish would be cloriform. Off hand I can think of a reaction that might cause. Still it runs me the wrong way to put any chemical on a piece that I am finishing.


I didnt say endust had silicone in it. 

I was talking about fish eye eliminator and other flow additives have silicone in them and wil lcause you problems if you have to refinish over them. 

But something in Endust will come back and haunt you if you try to refinish a piece of furniture where someone has used Endust in between coats, at least from my experience it will. I will never tell someone to use it either.

Endust contains 20% parrifinic oil which is the same stuff used in automotive transmission fluid and Slick 50 motor oil.

Also, I make sure when I blow compressed air that it is not in the same room as where I am spraying because that will move dust through out the air and into your project. I still use cheese cloth as well. Alot of people are against using it, but Ive never had a problem. However, I do not use cheese cloth when using water bourne finishes.

If I really need to remove all the sanding dust, I usually blow it off and wipe it down with naptha between coats. Naptha dries fast and removes oil and other contaminates if any.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Alright, update sorry no pics. Started spraying my test piece a couple of nights ago and it was like eating spicy Mexican .....runs runs runs. 

The WB lacquer runs so easily, it took me a few attempts in order to dial in the flow on my gun. Ended up spraying really light coats, never going over an area twice per coat. I did thin it 10% but I'm not sure I'm going to anymore. Using a 2.0 tip. 

Steve, I did not end up putting more filters in my spray booth yet and you were right, not enough air flow. I'm not doing a lot of spraying so I'll just keep charging on for now and finish this project. Definitely need to add more filters after. 

For my test piece and using thin coats, it took about 6 coats to get to a good build up. The wood is a really open grain (it's called nancotin) so it took a bit to fill and smooth out.....I did not want to use a grain filler, my wife likes the wood texture. 

I was worried the finish would cloud up with so many layers but I don't see much of a difference between the 3rd and 6th coat. 

Have started spraying components of the table now....all I can say is all sanding and no play makes jack a dull boy. 6 coats means a lot of sanding. So far though, it looks ok I think.

I will be finishing the table hopefully this weekend, will post pics. 

Andale andale....arriba arriba!!


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I have used Endust for over 10 yrs and never had a problem.
I have refinished over it many times.
Every time I hear a horror story about endust I find
out they used Pledge instead and called it Endust.
It happens all the time - Big difference.

ENDUST WILL NOT CAUSE FISHEYES.
Like it says on the can "Leaves no residue"
Even in my most delicate custom car painting
it never has.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Well thats cool. I will leave the thought of using Endust in between coats for other people to try. I will stick with my trusty Naptha if I need to remove ALL the sanding dust.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

First couple of coats down. Did not thin it this time and it seems to lay down better. It's going to take a few coats more.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Looks good. Yeah, with that tip you probably didnt need to thin it. I always like to thin a little and then choke down the trigger if i need too.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Well, here is the finished product (well, almost...still figuring out feet design). Took 5 coats on most parts with sanding between each coat. It's my first time building a piece of furniture and first time spraying. Overall I'm pleased, turned out nice even though I'm a moron (when I was cleaning my gun I noticed I used a 1.5mm needle with a 2.0mm tip for the whole thing). 

Lessons learned:

- sprayed thin coats for wb...it's really thin
- not thinning lay down better
- I sanded with 320 grit between coats, problem is the finish bunched up and I had to constantly clear the paper or it put big scratches
- keep the gun full...I used an earlex 5500 and a few times when spraying on an angle it didn't get enough finish
- 30 mins is enough time for a coat to dry

Thanks to everyone on this board, I basically followed your directions and voila - happy ending.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Looks real good. :thumbsup:


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Looks great! I'm glad it worked out for you.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks gents, both of you were extremely helpful. Spray finishing is not as scary with advice from you pros.


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## MSLiechty (Aug 13, 2014)

Looks real good what WB lacquer did you use? 


ML


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

Very nice!!!:yes:


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

MSLiechty said:


> Looks real good what WB lacquer did you use?
> 
> 
> ML


I used Target Coatings em6000. From reviews was one of the best I could find.


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## MSLiechty (Aug 13, 2014)

was2ndlast said:


> I used Target Coatings em6000. From reviews was one of the best I could find.



best WB finish I have ever used.

ML


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