# Favorite Finish



## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

What is your favorite finish for furniture?

I always got perfect results with Deft brushing lacquer, sprayed right of the can. 

Just finished my first gallon of Water Based Poly.

Must say the learning curve was steep and finally the WB Poly and me made friends after I learn't a 1.3 tip makes all the difference in my HVLP gun. The lack of fumes and the easy of cleaning is great, but the sanding and ease of application with my old Deft makes me wonder if I should rather smell-up the shop for a few weeks.:huh:

The other negative with WB is that the good stuff is not available at your home retail stores. So I ran out just before finishing my project. Have to wait four days now for a ground delivery from a manufacturer, before I can complete my project.:furious:


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

All depends upon the project. I've been learning a lot about shellac recently and really like a base coat of BLO followed by several coats of shellac and final buff with wax. Leaves a finish that to me just feels better than any other I've tried. I don't like finishes that leave a project feeling like plastic. We are wood workers after all.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Nitro Lacquer is my go to. Never let's me down. I kind of like the deep clear coating I get with it.

I've recently gotten interested in shellacs though and plan to do some playing around with that soon.

~tom. ...GEAUX TIGERS!... ...GEAUX SAINTS!......


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## Domer (Mar 23, 2008)

I like General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. It is a combination oil and poly. Nice tough finish


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Post Cat Lacquer.

Much more durable, and doesn't yellow like Nitro. :smile:


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Domer said:


> I like General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. It is a combination oil and poly. Nice tough finish


I have been building Arts and Crafts furniture of white oak. I use water based Dark Fumed Oak dye; then Several coats of Arm-R-Seal. Like Domer says, it is tough. I also like how it emphasises figure and grain. Also, as a wipe on, dust is not an issue.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

being a retired coatings chemist, i have to agree with "sawdust factory." As to "all depends on the project"

If talking of "wood" then i stick with any of the "Evaporative coatings" [natural resin, synthetic resin, that redissolves in it's original solvent. [Lac, sandarac, mastic, nitrocellulose, acrylates, Etc.. ] 

For boat work, i prefer 2K urethane's and polyester. For early 1900's to 75, i prefer what was originally used, the king of production finishes for over 50 years - cellulose nitrate and it's further family of cellulosics. 

Aqueous based finishes are adequate for house paint and such but not for wood, there chemistry is not permanent enough to be used on anything but utilitarian objects that are not meant to last for any real historical length of time, they lack to many of the necessary features of solvent base especially the quick and easy reversibility, repair, and removal by thier original solvent. 

Past that, there are numerous specialty coatings that fit niche' areas of need in all manufactured goods.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Personal preferences for a specific finish may vary depending on the application. I'm not a chemist, and don't know the relevance, but I have extensively used most of the finishes. Each has its own characteristics that when used as directed. 

Waterbase polyurethanes (aqueous based) may be disliked for wood finishes, have been developed to be popular for flooring, automotive finishes, and furniture finishes. Some still use solvent based lacquers for furniture.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

mdntrdr said:


> Post Cat Lacquer.
> 
> Much more durable, and doesn't yellow like Nitro. :smile:


Be it pre or post-cat, all have as their base polymer "nitrocellulose." The co-polymers being that of alkyd/amino types, with sulphurous acids for the post, or weaker phosphoric acids for the pre- [normally]. There is nothing magic or special about the nitro lacquer portion, it is a standard cellulose nitrate type. Therefore, it "will yellow/amber out" over time, just as much as a non cat type. If you have been told differently, then you have been misinformed, unfortunately, sorry. There are only a few clear coatings that will not yellow that are used in our field - Acrylics/ Cellulose acetates/ Butyrate [usually in a copolymer compound known as C.A.B. acrylics.] and vinyls are the most and a couple others not normally or rarely used due to bad performance on wood and other substrates. 

Though they definitely give better performance characteristics then regular lacquers in some areas, [outside of a few "bar-top" types, as to alcohol and water, and scratching white resistance,] they also have drawbacks that personally keep me away from using them. These are personal and if you want to use then that is definitely your's or others perogative. I won't go into any further detail unless there is interest. 

Happy holidays!! :thumbsup:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

chemmy said:


> Be it pre or post, all have as their base polymer "nitrocellulose." The co-polymers being that of alkyd/amino types. there is nothing magic about the nitro lacquer portion, it is a standard cellulose nitrate type. Therefore, it "will yellow/amber out" over time, just as much as a non cat type.
> 
> Though they definitely give better performance characteristics then regular lacquers, [outside of a few "bar-top" types,] they also have drawbacks that personally keep me away from using them. These are personal and if you want to use then that is definitely your prerogative. I won't go into any further detail unless there is interest.
> 
> Happy holidays!! :thumbsup:


Well given this:


chemmy said:


> being a retired coatings chemist[...]


Of course I want to no more! What kind of rhetorical question was that! :laughing:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Well given this:
> 
> 
> Of course I want to no more! What kind of rhetorical question was that! :laughing:


An historical/rhetorical one LOL, to easy for me to get carried away Tom. i could write a response to all of the post so far with both negative and positive comments. but instead I will just answer any that you may have for now ok? also i have expanded my first reply for better and more in depth info ok? 

As for you, i presume you would like to know more of cellulose nitrates correct? or maybe shellac? let me know and i will post what you like, for now it's after midnight and I'm "retiring" [once again], to the bedroom lol. 

Happy holidays!! :thumbsup:

PS: see my threads on shellac that have already been covered.

PSS: just looked at your site, nice work, but i can see where you need help with the finishes lol.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Well chemmy,being the complete hillbilly,toolwhorejunky.......I want to know about ya'lls lab.You know,hardware?

To what extent did/does your chem facility go twds the hdwre side of it?Give me some labels.....AC make,moisture control,guns,lighting.

Who was responsible for their aquisition?Did ya'll have like 12 AC's and pick the one that performed best?Whats the budget?That kind of stuff.BW


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mdntrdr said:


> Much more durable, and doesn't yellow like Nitro. :smile:



Conventional lacquers are formulated principally from the resin known as nitrocellulose. This is a material that is soluble in lacquer thinners, and forms a colorless solution. It's hard and brittle to be a wood finish without modification with a less brittle resin. The choice of this modifying resin determines the color of the lacquer. 

To keep the explanation simple and out of the lab, "nitrocellulose" resins that dissolve in lacquer thinner are used in nitrocellulose lacquer, and they are colorless. But, the finish is hard and brittle without some kind of modifier. What modifying resins are used determine the color of the lacquer.

To make a clear lacquer without adding an amber tone, and remains clear when dry, acrylic resins are uses. That lacquer is referred to as "water white" lacquer. They are good for use as a topcoat for natural, light or white finishes. They seem to hold up well and have a longer life than non water white lacquer.

Generally speaking, I find that waterbased polyurethanes apply without an amber tone, and remain clear, without changing the appearance of the grain or color, for natural or stained finishes. As in any topcoating, a stained look will look different when a topcoat is applied, so, making samples is a good idea.












 







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## Eagleeye (Dec 3, 2011)

Since I'm in sales (not so much wood finishes) my favorite is whatever is the highest priced, shortest pot life, worst covering product there is.:smile:


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Eagleeye said:


> Since I'm in sales (not so much wood finishes) my favorite is whatever is the highest priced, shortest pot life, worst covering product there is.:smile:



Glad to see you're here to help. :smile:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Eagleeye said:


> Since I'm in sales (not so much wood finishes) my favorite is whatever is the highest priced, shortest pot life, worst covering product there is.:smile:


Had me fooled. I would have guessed purchasing for the government.










 







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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

chemmy said:


> Be it pre or post-cat, all have as their base polymer "nitrocellulose." The co-polymers being that of alkyd/amino types, with sulphurous acids for the post, or weaker phosphoric acids for the pre- [normally]. There is nothing magic or special about the nitro lacquer portion, it is a standard cellulose nitrate type. Therefore, it "will yellow/amber out" over time, just as much as a non cat type. If you have been told differently, then you have been misinformed, unfortunately, sorry. There are only a few clear coatings that will not yellow that are used in our field - Acrylics/ Cellulose acetates/ Butyrate [usually in a copolymer compound known as C.A.B. acrylics.] and vinyls are the most and a couple others not normally or rarely used due to bad performance on wood and other substrates.
> 
> Though they definitely give better performance characteristics then regular lacquers in some areas, [outside of a few "bar-top" types, as to alcohol and water, and scratching white resistance,] they also have drawbacks that personally keep me away from using them. These are personal and if you want to use then that is definitely your's or others prerogative. I won't go into any further detail unless there is interest.
> 
> Happy holidays!! :thumbsup:


Thx for your post.

If you had to do figured white Maple, and wish to avoid yellowing over time, with a crystal clear coating, what would you use?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

BWSmith said:


> Well chemmy,being the complete hillbilly,toolwhorejunky.......I want to know about ya'lls lab.You know,hardware?
> 
> To what extent did/does your chem facility go twds the hdwre side of it?Give me some labels.....AC make,moisture control,guns,lighting.
> 
> Who was responsible for their acquisition?Did ya'll have like 12 AC's and pick the one that performed best?Whats the budget?That kind of stuff.BW


I'm not sure if i understand you when you say what "my lab" or facility have. I have never "owned" a coatings lab my self, although i did have lab equipment for small batch [5 gal] sample coatings determination and testing. basic color determination [color spectrophotometer, Macbeth formulating/batching software, color booth, draw-down bars, leneta cards, normal glassware apparatus, buckner vacuum flasks and accessories, bunsen burners, hotplate magnetic stirrers, small centrifuge, distillation apparatus, digital scales, etc.. But this is by no means a industrial set up which would cost into the millions if for a big concern such as you would find at BASF, Ciba Geigy, rohm hass, Akzo Nobel or a myriad of other ones.""VERY"" few if any coatings chemist that i know actually have full blown "labs" that, as I, have worked in the industry as employee's, not "owners". We are paid for knowledge and know how, not for what equipment we bring to the table. 

" 
""To what extent did/does your chem facility go twds the hdwre side of it?Give me some labels.....AC make,moisture control,guns,lighting.""

LOL, If by AC make you mean "air conditioning brand name, i really would not know, i was not hired on to the companies i have worked for to be knowledgeable on those matters. I can tell you the temps and humidity were kept at 75 degrees +/- 1 degree and the humidity a 48-50 percent, overall. Guns and other spray equipment were industrial standards ranging from DeVilbiss/sharp/Bin ks/etc. with pressure pots and airless/AA/Electrostatic from the same. we had both conventional and automatic guns for both hand application and paint line. Lighting was industrial also, a normal color booth would have 4 or more lighting one of each in the 3500-6500K plus UV for checking floresence as well as many others than could be installed when necessary, for color determination of samples. The color spectrophotometer would be of normally two types in the average labs. One of D8 degree geometry like the Macbeth color eye, and another for close to the eye visual color matching which would be a 0/45 degree 360 degree circumferential hand held type. for field or shop evaluation of correct color match. Since all manufacturing facilities differ to a degree, [or at least did] it was necessary to match the clients color under the same lighting conditions their customers would view them in, understand? 

Keep in mind, i have not been employed by a lab since 1975, just like most here i was a hands on worker in this field, first and foremost, my background is that of a 3rd generation wood finisher/refinsher/restorer/conservator. I delved into chemistry out of need, not as a first love initially, ok? 

""Who was responsible for their acquisition?Did ya'll have like 12 AC's and pick the one that performed best?Whats the budget?That kind of stuff.BW""

"Acquisition" and "y'all" being used in the same sentence gives away your not the "hillbilly" you pretend, so lighten up with the draw :thumbdown: lol. As I've stated elsewhere in other post on this site, i am only here to try and help, not to abuse or fight or cause ill feelings, with any participant. 

If by Ac's you now mean Acrylics/acrylates, then yes not several but many more. supplied to us normally as polymers but occasionally pre-polymers or monomers. Rohm & Haas, reichhold, BASF, and many more, over 50, were the sources.

The most important were the Methacrylates and ethyl acrylates, such as b-17, 68 and a host of others , then the butyls, vinyls and others. "each" company has their own designations for there own products. The "nomenclature[ sales name] is of little importance, what is important is their characteristics and performance attributes as well as their negative aspects. When choosing them one is most concerned with what advantages in the coatings they will give, polymer compatibility, types of substrates, that they will be meant to coat and protect, elasticity/ glass transition temps/ mechanical properties/optical properties/ and a host of others for end use. For example, will a 1-1 mol ratio of urethane to acrylic polyol give the desired results? Or more so a 2-1/3-1/4-1/8-1 give it something much more suitable for a wood finish? My own determination a 8 mol of acrylic polyol to 1 mol urethane is the best for wood when proper plasticizers and other additives and solvents are combined. But this is my preference's for "wood", not all substrates.

Budgets varied from company to company, for the most part it is as most other producers of coatings, a dog eat dog quest for prominence in the types offered. your given guidelines or confines of cost as compared to others of the type on the open market. this was the most frustrating angle of the whole industry!! In my opinion, much better coatings would already be more available if it were not for this one commercial aspect alone, and is why i became a private technician in the 80's. 

Lastly on a side note, i am "not" some well to do person sitting in a mansion or condo in Miami sitting back drinking pina coladas, and eating steak and lobster every day or week. if that's what comes across, then you are sadly mistaken. I lost everything in hurricane Wilma in Florida in 2005. I had nothing but the clothes on my back and the things in my van left to my name!! at my age then i had difficulty even finding permanent employment, thus my early retirement in 2008. i have spent the bulk of my career as most here eking out an existence in the field of wood finishing, an art and trade that i have truly loved since a young man, not in the field of chemistry. So give me a break if your thinking is such as that I'm some uppity, anal, degreed, highly cultured, unreachable, better than others personality, looking down on the rest of mankind as poor stupid fools. nothing could be further from the truth!!

sincerely, 

Chemmy


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

WillemJM said:


> Thx for your post.
> 
> If you had to do figured white Maple, and wish to avoid yellowing over time, with a crystal clear coating, what would you use?


For any whitish substrates be it wood or pigment types, you have few choices. An acrylic made with high contents of meth and ethyl polymers is my choice, such as delta Labs 525 series, in Florida makes. others would be SW C.A.B. [CAB - cellulose acetate and butyrate co-polymer] and a host of other CAB acrylics on the market "meant and developed specifically for wood", not metal, which have less elasticity. The acrylics have proven themselves over many decades of use, to perform in this way the best, and are even used in historical conservation of wood as to the b-17 types and some others. the reasons being it ability to be easily removed, easily repaired, and easily identified. 

Other more expensive secondary choices would be the latest generations of 2 component urethane's on the market, [again, those formulated for wood not metal and contain both UV stabilizers and Hindered amine light stabilizers] I have had excellent success with several, but i limit their use mainly to adverse conditions such a yachts or high end furniture or cabinets due to their cost. 

Cellulose acetates can also be used if the formulation is such intended, but inferior in most cases as is butyrates by themselves because of mil limitations on wood or other due to expansion and final brittleness for example.

PS:One thing you should keep in mind is that the Maple or other white woods will yellow/darken or amber on their own, over time, even if you do use a coating that does itself not yellow. This can be slowed by the use of lignin stabilizers commonly referred to as HALS [Hindered Amine Light Stabilizers] and the incorporation of UV and HALS light stabilizers in the coating also. The leading HALS for direct application on/to the wood, in an aqeous solution, is lignostat 1198 from Ciba Geigy/BASF or their distributors nation wide. 

hope this helps in your quest :smile::thumbsup:

sincerely,

chemmy


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Uhhh sorry,AC is air compressor.

Just figured that if you worked in a lab or whatever you call it......you'all would've had some testing equip?IE....AC's,sprayguns N such,my bad.Sorry to have bother'd you.BW


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

BWSmith said:


> Uhhh sorry,AC is air compressor.
> 
> Just figured that if you worked in a lab or whatever you call it......you'all would've had some testing equip?IE....AC's,sprayguns N such,my bad.Sorry to have bother'd you.BW


Well, if you read closely i do list the guns and equipment, in short, of course, there is much more for sure, but to numerous to list. . As to AC, yes we had at guardsman a 100 horse Screw type and some smaller for onsite work. the screw also had a large air dryer next to it. At OSF we had 2, 250 horse screw types and dryers also. Each was used a month at a time, then serviced as the other took over the main duty. you can't have a company without compressed air, lol. we also had air makeup for the finishing floor as most factories have and also flatlines with autospray equipment as i had mentioned. but as to listing every refractometer, gloss meter, bending mandrel, drawdown guage, viscosity cup, centipoise device, etc, it would be a never ending post lol. 

But i will post the few pics i have of OSF and the 86,000 dollar lab i set up there on my profile that anyone can look at if they so desire ok?

Sincerely, 

Chemmy


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

BWSmith said:


> Uhhh sorry,AC is air compressor.
> 
> Just figured that if you worked in a lab or whatever you call it......you'all would've had some testing equip?IE....AC's,sprayguns N such,my bad.Sorry to have bother'd you.BW


You didn't bother me BW., quite the contrary. I'm happy to answer questions, but here again i probably did not understand your original intent as to your curiosity in what you thought was my lab lol. It sounded more like you were trying to see if i am what i state i am, thus my responses.

If you like i will get back to you through pm, but even then the list of equipment is very long, to long for here, and if organic chemistry even longer. you have to remember lab's dealing with wood and or other coatings needs an enormous amount of equipment especially for large finishing plant needs. 

When dealing with specialty coatings for Hayworth, Herman miller, Steelcase, etc. We had to provide an area for flat-line that could show all the various drying/conversions they were using or were going to be using. Such as a multi line light area that had UV cure lighting/IR curing/Eb curing/RF curing/and others coming out on the market. This took up about 200 lineal ft. of space by 60" wide just for that. Then there was basic robotic spraying, and others also. This is why i say if i had to list all, it would be a 15-20 page summary that still would not be complete with explanation of all. 

Hope you understand and thanks,

Chemmy


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Eagleeye said:


> Since I'm in sales (not so much wood finishes) my favorite is whatever is the highest priced, shortest pot life, worst covering product there is.:smile:


Sarcasm already? Y'all see what I have to put up with every day???? :laughing:


I like oil because it gives a smooth, hand-rubbed look.


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