# Help with Pore-O-Pack grain filler



## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Tried some of this last night, (Oil Based) it sure is a PITA. Not something to use if time is scarce.

Filling pores in Padauk, means getting the stuff into the pores, letting it flash off, then getting the grey powder out of the pores, then filling them again and continuing the process.

Filling pores with De-Waxed Shellac as a sealer by spraying thick coats and sanding, may be a much faster way?

Anyone used this before, and like it?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm not familiar with that brand of woodfiller. I use Mohawk and it's also oil based. I thin it with naphtha and put it on with a sprayer. As soon as it flashes I wipe it down in a circular motion with a rag removing the excess. Because of the drying time I work fairly small areas at a time. When dry it takes only a very little sanding.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not familiar with that brand of woodfiller. I use Mohawk and it's also oil based. I thin it with naphtha and put it on with a sprayer. As soon as it flashes I wipe it down in a circular motion with a rag removing the excess. Because of the drying time I work fairly small areas at a time. When dry it takes only a very little sanding.


Steve, thanks for your reply. It sound similar to the Behlen product.

When it flashes off, what are you left with, a powdery carrier?

After drying, is the filler only in the pores, or is there a coat over the whole piece being worked?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I use a filler from Constantines (Paste Wood Filler) which I like better than Por-O-Pac. It fills the pores and surface fibers. With any brand...and they are different, following the directions is a must. Some say to apply a sealer first. I find I need only one application.

Under normal finishing, I like to have some feel of the wood, not a slick feel that I intend to apply a build and rub out to a glass like finish. Using a sealer and then the topcoat done properly, can provide a nice finish.









 







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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I use a filler from Constantines (Paste Wood Filler) which I like better than Por-O-Pac. It fills the pores and surface fibers. With any brand...and they are different, following the directions is a must. Some say to apply a sealer first. I find I need only one application.
> 
> Under normal finishing, I like to have some feel of the wood, not a slick feel that I intend to apply a build and rub out to a glass like finish. Using a sealer and then the topcoat done properly, can provide a nice finish.
> 
> ...


Thx CM

I agree with you, prefer a sealer and top-coat only. Did a segmented bowl and trying to get a Piano type finish, guess we can call it an experiment.

I used dewaxed shellac as a wash coat and it is again recommended to use it as a seal coat over the filler, before spraying Lacquer.

It takes a lot of time to do this, will need a few coats of filler, then the time to dry over 24 huors, sand, unless I am doing something wrong.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WillemJM said:


> Steve, thanks for your reply. It sound similar to the Behlen product.
> 
> When it flashes off, what are you left with, a powdery carrier?
> 
> After drying, is the filler only in the pores, or is there a coat over the whole piece being worked?


No, there is no powder to it. The Mohawk filler makes a paste that builds up on the rag like mud. You end up changing rags frequently and it almost looks like it has sealer on it when you get it wiped off. It is somewhat shinny. For the most part it just fills the pores however it is difficult to get it wiped off 100% so I normally scuff sand it after it dries to get any residual filler off the surface. All the wood filler is, is wood stain with a lot of solids for filling purposes. 

A word of caution using woodfillers with lacquer. The solvents in lacquer soak into each coat as it is applied. This also applies to the woodfiller. You can spray a coat of lacquer on the wood that has been filled and it will cause the woodfiller to swell. Then you sand between coats and spray some more lacquer on and the woodfiller swells some more. Then you get the project done and it looks great. Then in the next day or two the finish starts to cure and the woodfiller shrinks down making the wood look grainy again. For this reason I never sand sealer in the same day I spray it. It's a pain but the drying time is worth it.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not familiar with that brand of woodfiller. I use Mohawk and it's also oil based. I thin it with naphtha and put it on with a sprayer. As soon as it flashes I wipe it down in a circular motion with a rag removing the excess. Because of the drying time I work fairly small areas at a time. When dry it takes only a very little sanding.


Most grain fillers/paste wood fillers are the consistency of mayonnaise. They get thinned some, but still are a paste that gets squeegeed into the grain. Thinning to a consistency to be sprayable will render them ineffective IMO. They need the body to be a filler.



Steve Neul said:


> A word of caution using woodfillers with lacquer. The solvents in lacquer soak into each coat as it is applied. This also applies to the woodfiller. You can spray a coat of lacquer on the wood that has been filled and it will cause the woodfiller to swell. Then you sand between coats and spray some more lacquer on and the woodfiller swells some more. Then you get the project done and it looks great. Then in the next day or two the finish starts to cure and the woodfiller shrinks down making the wood look grainy again. For this reason I never sand sealer in the same day I spray it. It's a pain but the drying time is worth it.


I've used a lot of filler, and don't have that problem. If you use lacquer you should be using a lacquer sanding sealer. Maybe your problem is from spraying a thinned filler.









 







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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Back in the good ole days we used to use a lot of paste filler in commercial shops, it's very rarely used these days, most shops use polyester to fill the grain on closed coat finishes and most of the finishes are very high solids as opposed to the old lacquers we used to spray.

I always liked the Sherwin Williams paste filler, they have natural and will match colors with their S64 stain base colors. Using their product, from the directions on the can, you thin 150% with VM&P naptha and allow to dry 4 hours before sealing.

We always wash coated the wood before filler (stain before wash coat if needed) and then applied the filler. This was to prevent a condition known as grey pore where the filler would turn grey after a few months. I have had to fill large panels and doors and all that wiping gives me a headache just thinking about it. We just used a squeegee. Wait for the filler to flash a little (turns dull from shiny) and then squeegee off all excess back into the can to use again. Carefully wipe off any excess with a rag wrapped around a sanding block to keep from removing filler from the pores. The wash coat also allows the squeegee to work really well and color the pores very cleanly. This is important if the pores are a contrasting color like in a ceruse finish.

You can fill more than one time on very open pore wood like oak or ash and then spray on a full wet coat of sealer. You should be 90% of the way there. It's just a matter of proper sanding and topcoating from there on out. 

One final note: Careful with those rags! Filler rags are even worse than linseed oil rags due to the cobalt driers they use. Put the rags in water and dispose of them properly!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Most grain fillers/paste wood fillers are the consistency of mayonnaise. They get thinned some, but still are a paste that gets squeegeed into the grain. Thinning to a consistency to be sprayable will render them ineffective IMO. They need the body to be a filler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The filler I use was thinned and applied in accordance with the manufacturer. It is applied with a sprayer however thinning it with napatha the solvents quickly evaporate and it becomes the same as out of a can. At the time it is rubbed into the grain it has all the body it needs. I've never seen woodfiller thin as mayonnaise. The woodfillers I have used are barely brushable out of the can. Usually a new can it takes 15 to 20 minutes to get all of the solids stirred. At the time the lacquer sanding sealer is applied the woodfiller is completely dry and it doesn't make any difference whether the woodfiller is brushed on or sprayed because I've done it both ways. You can actually see the woodfiller raised after spraying sealer if you look close enough. I've refinished countless mahogany and walnut tables and you can easily bring the grain texture back by rushing the finish. It needs the drying time.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> The filler I use was thinned and applied in accordance with the manufacturer.


 
Can you post those directions?



Steve Neul said:


> I've never seen woodfiller thin as mayonnaise.


When I apply it, after thinning it's the consistency of mayonnaise. It gets applied with a spreader, like a Bondo spreader. It would be totally ineffective if thinned to a spray grade consistency.









 







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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. I just realized that I really did not know what I was doing, this stuff won't work for the purpose I had in mind. After all the practice though, I now know how to use it, and will put it to use some place in the future.

One needs to find a die, that colors correctly so that the pores blend with the wood. I thought it was a transparent filler, tried to use it on Padauk inlaid into Yellowheart. 

Edit:
Someone just told me that the white powder in the pores of my Padauk and Yelloheart would take on the natural color of the wood, once another seal coat or top coat is applied. If I knew that, it would have been success. Too late.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Can you post those directions?
> 
> When I apply it, after thinning it's the consistency of mayonnaise. It gets applied with a spreader, like a Bondo spreader. It would be totally ineffective if thinned to a spray grade consistency.
> 
> ...


OK I had a technical advisor from Star Finishing Products in my shop at the time I started refinishing mahogany tables to help be get started with their products. He demonstrated to me how to use their woodfiller. Star Finishing Products has since been bought by Mohawk. At the time I was applying woodfiller with a brush and he told me to speed things up I could thin the woodfiller with naphtha just enough to get it to spray and apply it with the conventional sprayer I was using at the time. At the time of spraying the woodfiller was a little thicker than oil based enamel. I worked half of one of these tops at a time, roughly a area 30"x42". I sprayed a very thick wet coat of the thinned woodfiller on the table section and waited until it got very thick. At the time of wiping it is closer to the consistency of famowood putty. Then I wiped it off in a circular motion with a rag that was rolled up tight and hard and worked fast before the stuff would harden. Normally I sprayed the other half of the table top just before it was time to wipe the first one. Usually the second half was ready to wipe about the time I finished rubbing out the first half.

I have used plastic to remove some of the excess but more often than not the plastic ended up making a scratch on the wood and once you started taking off the excess it would set up much faster and I would end up haveing to use mineral spirits to get the excess off. Then by doing that I would have to re-apply the woodfiller. I found it much easier to just use a rag and be done with it.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> OK I had a technical advisor from Star Finishing Products in my shop at the time I started refinishing mahogany tables to help be get started with their products. He demonstrated to me how to use their woodfiller. Star Finishing Products has since been bought by Mohawk. At the time I was applying woodfiller with a brush and he told me to speed things up I could thin the woodfiller with naphtha just enough to get it to spray and apply it with the conventional sprayer I was using at the time. At the time of spraying the woodfiller was a little thicker than oil based enamel. I worked half of one of these tops at a time, roughly a area 30"x42". I sprayed a very thick wet coat of the thinned woodfiller on the table section and waited until it got very thick. At the time of wiping it is closer to the consistency of famowood putty. Then I wiped it off in a circular motion with a rag that was rolled up tight and hard and worked fast before the stuff would harden. Normally I sprayed the other half of the table top just before it was time to wipe the first one. Usually the second half was ready to wipe about the time I finished rubbing out the first half.
> 
> I have used plastic to remove some of the excess but more often than not the plastic ended up making a scratch on the wood and once you started taking off the excess it would set up much faster and I would end up haveing to use mineral spirits to get the excess off. Then by doing that I would have to re-apply the woodfiller. I found it much easier to just use a rag and be done with it.


I understand your explanation, and am having a problem envisioning spraying media thicker than oil based enamel. What I asked for is the instructions/directions for the product you used/are using. Their website should have it. Just copy/paste.









 







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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

WillemJM said:


> One needs to find a die, that colors correctly so that the pores blend with the wood. I thought it was a transparent filler, tried to use it on Padauk inlaid into Yellowheart.
> 
> Edit:
> Someone just told me that the white powder in the pores of my Padauk and Yelloheart would take on the natural color of the wood, once another seal coat or top coat is applied. If I knew that, it would have been success. Too late.


The only way I've used Pore O Pak was mixed with a color. In my case it was on qtr sawn WO, and the filler (colored with a pigment stain) really made the ray flecks stand out as well as fill the grain. That didn't make it any easier to use though, it was still work.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I understand your explanation, and am having a problem envisioning spraying media thicker than oil based enamel. What I asked for is the instructions/directions for the product you used/are using. Their website should have it. Just copy/paste.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm not able to get anything like that off the internet. I'm on dial-up internet so the site will time out before it opens. Also this new computer of mine doesn't do PDF and this is usually the format these things are displayed in. In recent years they have come up with some water based fillers. The one I have been using is oil based. I believe it was Mohawk M608-4246 mahogany grain filler.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not able to get anything like that off the internet. I'm on dial-up internet so the site will time out before it opens. Also this new computer of mine doesn't do PDF and this is usually the format these things are displayed in. In recent years they have come up with some water based fillers. The one I have been using is oil based. I believe it was Mohawk M608-4246 mahogany grain filler.


I looked at their site, there is a video that shows the application.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

WillemJM said:


> I looked at their site, there is a video that shows the application.


I couldn't find the exact video. Maybe you could post the link. Here is the PDS (Product Data Sheet) directions for application. No mention of spraying.

_*Directions:* MIX WELL BEFORE USING. New or stripped wood should be finish sanded, free of sanding
dust, and dry. Grain Filler can be applied by brush, wipe, or rubber squeegee.
If the filler is to be applied to flat surfaces by rubber squeegee, no reduction is necessary. Cleaner excess
removal can be accomplished in this manner thereby necessitating the need for less wiping effort. If the filler is
to be brushed or wiped into the wood pores the amount of reduction will be determined by the size and shape of
the article to be filled. Smaller size, less intricately shaped articles can be filled using the M608 without reduction;
however, large articles such as desktops will require that the M608 be reduced up to equal volumes with M608-
106 Filler Solvent._










 







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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

The Sherwin Williams product sounds similar to the Mohawk. Here is their product information sheet


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## 2fingers (Aug 27, 2011)

Good info on this subject....I too used por-0-pac last year on a 7 foot by 38 in walnut top. Everything that WillemJM said about the por-0-pad filler I experienced. I had stained the walnut, attempted to lay down a coat of shellac then use the filler. The result was the filler turned grey. I gave up on the coat of shellac before the filler because I couldn't get a smooth finish. Trying to sand the shellac I would get into the stain. I striped the table to bare wood "twice" and reapplied the stain. Gave up on the shellac coat because of the large surface area of the table would tack up to quickly. Long story short I stained the por-0-pac with the walnut stain and some black oil paint. When the filler dried, it dried to the color I wanted. I used Min Wax oil based poly for the final coat, 6 of them, and then a wipe on gel coat poly. I have a beautiful, smooth and a baby butt satin finish. Could have saved a lot of work had I known the filler would turn to the correct color when the finish was applied. Doing walnut hall table now but wanted to use a solvent or water based "dye" and then lacquer finish on this one. I've never used either. How will the filler and dye react to each other. Would like some info from y'all. New to woodworking 3 years ago so about everything I do is an adventure


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Anytime you use a woodfiller you should use it on raw wood. Sealing the wood with shellac first will cause adhesion problems with the woodfiller. As far as altering the color of the woodfiller, you can also add a universal tinting color to change the color. I don't think I would use Minwax stain. Minwax stain is usually only compatable with Minwax stain. I'm sure the oil based black paint was fine too.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I couldn't find the exact video. Maybe you could post the link. Here is the PDS (Product Data Sheet) directions for application. No mention of spraying.
> 
> _*Directions:* MIX WELL BEFORE USING. New or stripped wood should be finish sanded, free of sanding_
> _dust, and dry. Grain Filler can be applied by brush, wipe, or rubber squeegee._
> ...


It doesn't mean a thing. It just means they don't want to go into a lengthy explanation on how to spray a woodfiller. If they only recommend applying the woodfiller by hand there is less chance someone will screw it up. The fact of the matter is I've been successfully spraying woodfiller for more than 25 years. Over the 11 years when I had a furniture refinishing shop I probably refinished 100 tables with this technique and not one failed to fill and none were returned to me as warranty work.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> Anytime you use a woodfiller you should use it on raw wood. Sealing the wood with shellac first will cause adhesion problems with the woodfiller.


From the Woodcraft site for Pore-O-Pac:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...aste-Wood-Grain-Filler--Natural--1-Quart.aspx

*Product Information:*
Behlen’s new easy to apply Pore-O-Pac works fast to fill open-grained woods. The filler uses silica, pigments and a suitable vehicle to provide a smooth, glass-like surface for following finishing coats. Reduced VOCs allow it to pass current requirements in all 50 states. 

Used for filling open grained woods
*Should be used over a wash coat of sealer*
Use Behlen's Grain Filler Scraper/Leveler is for even filling
24-hour dry time is necessary before topcoating
1 quart












 







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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> From the Woodcraft site for Pore-O-Pac:
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...aste-Wood-Grain-Filler--Natural--1-Quart.aspx
> 
> *Product Information:*
> ...


Here is a white paper, on how to work with Pore-O-Pack, instructions I followed verbatum.

http://www.garrettwade.com/images/art/Applying Wood Filler.pdf

Actually I believe Steve has a very good point, the filler comes out of the pores real easy if applied over wash coat first, I have seen this.

Please take into account Steve is using a different product and it appears similar to the Sherman Williams product where the instructions actually include a spraying option. For us where time is always at a premium, this sounds like a great option.


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## 2fingers (Aug 27, 2011)

As said I finished this project last year and if my memory serves me right I was advised on another forum web site...or it could have been the instructions on the por-o-pac container that staining after applying the filler would cause the filler to soften and swell. The procedure was to stain, seal and then filler..another coat of sealer (shellac) and then the finish. I had major problem trying to lay down a smooth coat of shellac during summer heat. Thinning it with denatured alcohol so it would flo easier only made it tack up quicker.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> From the Woodcraft site for Pore-O-Pac:
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...aste-Wood-Grain-Filler--Natural--1-Quart.aspx
> 
> *Product Information:*
> ...


The more I hear about the pour-o-pack filler, the more I don't think I would want to use it. The only good thing I've seen is Garret Wade won't ship it to California. 
A full coat of shellac is hardly a washcoat. Even though, I would recommend anyone disregard the instructions to use a washcoat and put any woodfiller directly on the wood before any stain. A stain or any product containing a solvent applied to filled wood will soften and swell the product however this is not permanent and the woodfiller will shrink back down and harden when dry. This was my initial point on spraying lacquer sealer over woodfiller. If you didn't wait for the woodfiller to shrink back down you can bring the grain texture back. Under pressure from a customer for a deadline I had this happen one time rushing the finish. I only allowed lacquer to dry two hours between coats in warm dry weather and it wasn't enough. I finished the table and it looked great until the next morning when it started to cure and the grain re-appeared even though the filler had dried 24 hours prior to applying sealer. Consequently I didn't make the deadline and it just raised my cost for having to fix the finish. Perhaps someone has already done it but I keep hoping someone will make a epoxy grain filler. Then it would be impervious to the affects of solvents. If and when I need a filler again I may look for some.


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