# Festool Domino patent



## mnausa (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm looking at buying the Festool Domino 500. I'm a little hesitant on buying it because I'm afraid that another company will come out with something similar, and be a lot cheaper. It has happened to me before.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think you can pretty much count on someone else making a similar machine. Trouble is it may be 10 years before you see one. 

Personally I think these guys should get in the business. :laughing:


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## mnausa (Jan 10, 2015)

I think you're right.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Well, Festool tools are so expensive they are not sold in the box stores so most folks don't know a domino machine even exists so there isn't a demand for it for other tool companies to take notice.


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## mnausa (Jan 10, 2015)

Good point.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Im not sure people see the value add vs biscuits/dowels and its certainly a more complex movement to manufacturer...


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## mnausa (Jan 10, 2015)

Sure. But I'm wondering if anyone new if there was a patent on the design.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Patent or no patent if any of the other major tool makers thought there was money to be made they would have a similar tool on the market.
Since that hasn't happened my guess any product that would hit the market would be a cheap knock-off and nothing but grief.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

I wouldn't not buy it based on the patent idea. 

Every company sells chop saws sawzalls and circular saws. All basically the same without interfering with the others parents. 

If there's a market and money to be made other company's will start popping them out.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

BigJoe16 said:


> I wouldn't not buy it based on the patent idea. Every company sells chop saws sawzalls and circular saws. All basically the same without interfering with the others parents. If there's a market and money to be made other company's will start popping them out.


I'm not sure I agree with your statement on patents.
When Feins patent ran out, Rockwell, and several others started squirting out knock offs. I bought the Rockwell one at a tool show and it's a piece of junk. I still use it but know I'll get aggregated with it.
Festools patent ran out on track saws and low and behold Dewalt, Makita, triton have all introduced their versions for a few bucks less but don't other the interchangeability between other tools in their line.
Patents on sawzallls, drills, electric hand saws have run out. Each manufacture has their own version that they patent.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Parents are only good for so long....and on specific things.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The thing about a patent is it is so specific to design another maker could make a little change and have their own patent.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

mnausa said:


> I'm looking at buying the Festool Domino 500. I'm a little hesitant on buying it because I'm afraid that another company will come out with something similar, and be a lot cheaper. It has happened to me before.


I have one and it's my go to tool even for dry assemblies. You won't be sorry.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Im sure certain facets of the domino tool is patented.

Im also sure someone could squirt around them if they really wanted to.

The tracksaw was probably patented too.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Parents are only good for so long....and on specific things.




Would you PM me your parents phone number? Id like to give them a call.

















































Sorry I couldnt resist....


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Would you PM me your parents phone number? Id like to give them a call.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Stupid auto correct.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

US patents filed after June 5 1995 last 20 years. Before that it was 17.

Patents are only good if you have the money to fight in court over it. If I copy the Dom maker. Nothing stops me until they take me to court and prove I copied their design. There isn't some governing body that enforces it without a court battle.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Of course a guy like me would just build my own and put the money into another tool.









There are a bunch of copies. They even use the beech doms.

Al


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Nope...nor are they enforceable for private use. Go ahead and build yourself one all day long, but if you try and sell it, you can bet your rear they'll track you down and it'll end up in court.


Patents are about worthless, he probably could legally sell the one he built.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Of course a guy like me would just build my own and put the money into another tool.
> 
> View attachment 139041
> 
> ...



By the way....is there a video of that somewhere? I'd like to see how it oscillates...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You two guys please don't start something.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You two guys please don't start something.


What is this thread good for if we can't argue about patents?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't intend to...I quite honestly think the grey home built version looks kinda cool....looks like a lot of headache to build without a cnc to cut everything perfect though.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Im trying to figure how that works... it drills 1 hole at a time I assume, then it clicks over 1 notch to do the next? 

necessity is the mother of invention.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> What is this thread good for if we can't argue about patents?


Despite the fact that I was once one of the worst offenders I'm suppose to delete anything that looks like a argument developing.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Despite the fact that I was once one of the worst offenders I'm suppose to delete anything that looks like a argument developing.


It actually looks like for the first time in WWT history we all agree.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

hwebb99 said:


> It actually looks like for the first time in WWT history we all agree.


I'm going to the cardiologist.
Probably gonna have the big one...


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> US patents filed after June 5 1995 last 20 years. Before that it was 17. Patents are only good if you have the money to fight in court over it. If I copy the Dom maker. Nothing stops me until they take me to court and prove I copied their design. There isn't some governing body that enforces it without a court battle. Al


Ah patent office?
I bet Festool has the funds to fight patent infringement.
They are bigger in Europe than the U.S.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Chamfer said:


> Would you PM me your parents phone number? Id like to give them a call. Sorry I couldnt resist....


The May want to play Dominos.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

[QUOTE="
They may want to play Dominos


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Patents are about worthless, he probably could legally sell the one he built.


Right. Ben Franklin never patented any of his work. He believed it was for the betterment of others and shouldn't hinder progress. 

Now on the other hand Mr SawStop save your fingers by buying my saw has over 100 patents. Although some were from 2000 so Mr Gass has only a few years to make his dream come true. Why would a guy so hell bent to "help" place so many restrictions on something so vital to the woodworking industry?

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. Ben Franklin never patented any of his work. He believed it was for the betterment of others and shouldn't hinder progress.
> 
> Now on the other hand Mr SawStop save your fingers by buying my saw has over 100 patents. Although some were from 2000 so Mr Gass has only a few years to make his dream come true. Why would a guy so hell bent to "help" place so many restrictions on something so vital to the woodworking industry?
> 
> Al


I believe I would have done the same thing if I came up with such an invention although I might have considered selling just the device to other manufacturers.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. Ben Franklin never patented any of his work. He believed it was for the betterment of others and shouldn't hinder progress.
> 
> Now on the other hand Mr SawStop save your fingers by buying my saw has over 100 patents. Although some were from 2000 so Mr Gass has only a few years to make his dream come true. Why would a guy so hell bent to "help" place so many restrictions on something so vital to the woodworking industry?
> 
> Al


There are FRAND patents, which means anyone can use the process or idea for a "Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory" fee, Mr Gass could have gone that route if he had the welfare of the table saw users in mind, he choose the greedy extortion route.

As far as companies protecting their patents how well has that worked for Apple against Samsung through the courts.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

And here goes the sawstop debate...


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Now on the other hand Mr SawStop save your fingers by buying my saw has over 100 patents. Although some were from 2000 so Mr Gass has only a few years to make his dream come true. Why would a guy so hell bent to "help" place so many restrictions on something so vital to the woodworking industry?
> 
> Al


Because all he cares about is $$$$$$$$.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> And here goes the sawstop debate...


Well, I have no quarrel with anyone that wants to use a Sawstop, it is a great product for those that feel more comfortable using it, just never liked the way the developer presented it.


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## Smith Brother (Dec 9, 2012)

AND, why does a TV station at ten in the morning tell you to TUNE in at eleven at night to learn how you can save YOUR child from harm.

Woulnd't you THINK they would want to get that info out RIGHT NOW, NO, NO, NO, it's all about ratings, do what they can to raise the eleven news ratings, the heck with possibly protecting a child.

$$$$$$ come from good ratings.

Dale in indy


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

FrankC said:


> Well, I have no quarrel with anyone that wants to use a Sawstop, it is a great product for those that feel more comfortable using it, just never liked the way the developer presented it.


Totally agree. His name needs to have the G removed.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

There are few people in the world that can afford and want to invent things just to help the human race. I can't fault someone for wanting to earn a living....it's capitalism at its best. Fight tooth and nail to succeed. I'd have done the exact same thing.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> There are few people in the world that can afford and want to invent things just to help the human race. I can't fault someone for wanting to earn a living....it's capitalism at its best. Fight tooth and nail to succeed. I'd have done the exact same thing.


Everybody has to make a living. It is ok to patent something, but don't try to make everybody buy it.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Happens every day...why do you think most manufacturing companies have entire lobbying staffs.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Well, I have no quarrel with anyone that wants to use a Sawstop, it is a great product for those that feel more comfortable using it, just never liked the way the developer presented it.


EXACTLY!

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Seems like a cut your finger off to spite your hand sort of conundrum.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I believe I would have done the same thing if I came up with such an invention although I might have considered selling just the device to other manufacturers.


Right. But he wanted it all. The worst aspect about the whole deal was him trying to make us put them on all saws. We're Americans. We have freedom and liberty and I don't want any commie inventor coming between me and mine.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Right....buy a new car without seatbelts and airbags..


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Right....buy a new car without seatbelts and airbags..


Why do you or anyone else care if my car has seat belts or airbags?


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm confused what seat belts and air bags have to do with a saw stop


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The complaint with sawstops inventor is he tried to get the technology mandated on new saws, my point is this happens everyday. You can't buy a car without mandatory safety gear, why would a table saw be any greater "loss of liberty". The world progresses...things change...we used to think adding lead to things was a great idea, now we know that to not be the case. 

If you take out the attempt to get the technology mandated, very few are going to be able to try and claim it's not a good idea, of course they're probably the same ones that think smoking is good for you, and seat belts will kill you.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Capitalism, lobbyists, seat bealts, airbags and Gass are things Ive never really liked.


To be fair though, I only have to deal with the last one when I eat Mexican food.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Lol....well there Ya go!!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

This is going to cross the great political line pretty quick....

Have a happy Pi day everyone!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> This is going to cross the great political line pretty quick....
> 
> Have a happy Pi day everyone!!!


Not with a moderator with a delete button.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Right. But he wanted it all. The worst aspect about the whole deal was him trying to make us put them on all saws. We're Americans. We have freedom and liberty and I don't want any commie inventor coming between me and mine.
> 
> Al


Whats wrong with wanting it all?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

It was a simple case of the tail wagging the dog.


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## Road rider (Jan 29, 2012)

I think the guy that invented saw stop and him trying to force everybody to use it is way different than the government forcing car safety on us....
Just saying its not even close to being the same thing !!!


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

wendell white said:


> I think the guy that invented saw stop and him trying to force everybody to use it is way different than the government forcing car safety on us....
> Just saying its not even close to being the same thing !!!


Its not the same:no:. But to work in a factory setting with many tools not only a tablesaw that could use this technology is a waste. I really just don't see the argument there.

Not sure, but would bet that there is no premium breaks on factory insurance for having SawStop. But I have noticed more shops selling there used saws to upgrade to SawStop tablesaws.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

There are insurance savings for many commercial policies for switching, there are even a few cases out there of insurance companies footing the bill to switch them if the company or school agree to not have anything but sawstop....


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> There are insurance savings for many commercial policies for switching, there are even a few cases out there of insurance companies footing the bill to switch them if the company or school agree to not have anything but sawstop....


First I've heard of it, but I'll check Monday to see if this offered to us...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Let us know what you find.....Mike checked last week and said there was a discount on his policy, didn't say how much it was though....



VIFmike said:


> Yep it is outside our budget. Our insurance does not pay for any of that but they do offer a better rate for one vs any other saw.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Is there a link to the equipment options for the technology?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

What do you mean?


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Bad case of auto check


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Seatbelts and air bags didn't come from one man and one company with one thing on his mind. Money. Didn't see any butt holes slapping 100 patents on belts and bags. 

Profitting on a mandated law was the reason this jerk lost. That's the reason I'm not forced to spend my money and lose my God given liberty to to cut wood like I want too. 

Must you...

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Whats wrong with wanting it all?


Nothing providing it doesn't take away my liberty. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wendell white said:


> I'm confused what seat belts and air bags have to do with a saw stop


Nothing.

Al


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

capitalism vs liberty, the 2 things that made this country great. Unfortunately they do oppose each other occasionally.

I dont think anyones going to legislate table saw brakes anytime soon.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Insurance companies already are....


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I don't care what it means to the hobbyist but as far as manufacturing I'm in 100%.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> capitalism vs liberty, the 2 things that made this country great. Unfortunately they do oppose each other occasionally.
> 
> I dont think anyones going to legislate table saw brakes anytime soon.


Apples and oranges. They have nothing in common. But if I'm wrong please fill me in.

Al


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

I was at the Milwaukee tool show on Saturday and was chatting with the SawStop rep.
I asked about the issue of the brake firing cutting pressure treated wood due to the wetness.

He was telling me that a window manufacture cuts a lot if aluminum and wood making windows. Half are SawStops for the wood and the other half are regular saws for the aluminum.
I was wondering what Gas would think about loosing out on half the saws.
I was also wondering about the employees scheduled to work on the regular saws. Darn scheduled to cut aluminum on regular saws. There goes the fingers. How am I gonna eat my sandwich at lunch with just thumbs?

Can't remember the balance of his presentation....


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

unclefester said:


> I was at the Milwaukee tool show on Saturday and was chatting with the SawStop rep.
> I asked about the issue of the brake firing cutting pressure treated wood due to the wetness.
> 
> He was telling me that a window manufacture cuts a lot if aluminum and wood making windows. Half are SawStops for the wood and the other half are regular saws for the aluminum.
> ...


Maybe they should have made the saw tables out of granite?

Maybe if you had all 10 you were relegated to cut aluminum. Others would be on wood.

Al


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

When I got my first table saw last year, it came with a blade guard (not installed). I had no idea what it was. 

It's amazing I'm still alive.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Mort said:


> When I got my first table saw last year, it came with a blade guard (not installed). I had no idea what it was.
> 
> It's amazing I'm still alive.


Ive had mine for about 2 years now, no blade guard. I dont recommend it, but common sense is the best safety device you can buy. I still have all 10 fingers and all 9 toes, because i make sure that i never put myself in a position where blade meets flesh. A guard is a great device to be sure, you you still have to rely on the the operator not being an idiot


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Maybe they should have made the saw tables out of granite? Maybe if you had all 10 you were relegated to cut aluminum. Others would be on wood. Al


That's kinda what was going through my mind too


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Here you go Festool fans:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Festo-Doubl...350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d94f2456


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Insurance companies already are....


That should make you stop and think no? You cant buy off insurance companies... Insurance companies are free to handle their statistics how they wish. 

The potential costs of false positive triggers are not their concern. The guarantee that no one cuts their finger off is a real liability save.

In theory, having a saw stop should be a discount, not having one is the same as it would have been. I don't know if they portray it that way, but that's just marketing.

if you dont see the value in a saw stop, they aren't forcing you to get one, but why shouldnt you pay your fair share of liability compared to the guy that does take that route?


Unless your saying NO ONE will insure a shop without such devices...


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Apples and oranges. They have nothing in common. But if I'm wrong please fill me in.
> 
> Al


making money means stepping on the competition whenever possible.

Why shouldnt he lobby for regulation? He has to make his case, and its to the legislators to make a decision.

Write your congressperson, vote them out if they dont see things your way.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Bauer
Sad to say but with the current trend going now. We see more and more manufacturers just plain getting out of the good quality tool business. Because we all want a good deal. The skill level of woodworkers is also declining due to less fathers teaching there children and the schools turning out 18 year olds with zero shop experience, because they to are a dying group. 

You can see it in the questions and posts here on this forum. We give them advice and point them toward a crappy cheap table saw assuming they can use it safely. Maybe we should all start our advice with, "do you have a Sawstop"? Get one of those and then drop us a line. 

Truth is there has never been a better safety device than education and training. But why spend your money on that when you can just use a Sawstop.

Al


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

well, specialization of labor and all that, its quite inefficient for us to do our own woodworking. But hobbies are never meant to be a value add so thats fine.

I ride motorcycles, and as the old saying goes, 2 kinds of riders, those that have gone down, and those that will. No one plans to injure themselves, and everyone thinks it cant happen to them. Thats when you start riding without gear. Such overconfidence is probably the first step to becoming the statistic.

To the matter (not really) at hand, the way I see it, saw stop saws are really rather good tools. We all have our preferences, and many hate the man behind the saw, but as a product, its in the discussion with other high end brands.

How much does the brake mechanism really cost if it weren't attached to a high margin brand? How much could it cost if its volume increased and a few more eyeballs re imagined it? Why hasn't anyone else done it...

If/when someone finds a way to do it without destroying a brake and a blade, I think it will become standard equipment very soon after.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Here you go Festool fans:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Festo-Doubl...350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d94f2456


Lets see, who do we all know that likes Festool and old heavy machinery...?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> making money means stepping on the competition whenever possible.
> 
> Why shouldnt he lobby for regulation? He has to make his case, and its to the legislators to make a decision.
> 
> Write your congressperson, vote them out if they dont see things your way.


Forcing the good tax paying woodworkers of the USA to buy your product through government regulation and only your product is not stepping on your competition. It's stepping on the good woodworker. It's the purest form of communism there is. It amazes me that there are people that either don't understand this or don't care. Both groups are what's wrong with the progressive trend we have seen here in our country. That doesn't bother you?

How about if Gass just builds a better product and let's the market decide if it's willing to buy it like it should be. Take the crony out of it please. My bet is he would have sold far more saws and been the pride of the industry. But that just isnt the case now is it.

As it is the men and women I voted for did in fact correct Mr Gass and sent him packing. Got to love the power of my vote.

I also might add. Too bad Gass didn't just put them in all the schools where they can be of use and foster a relationship where by those students who move on and actually buy their own SawStop. 

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

OK guys lets keep politics out of it.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Forcing the good tax paying woodworkers of the USA to buy your product through government regulation and only your product is not stepping on your competition. It's stepping on the good woodworker. It's the purest form of communism there is. It amazes me that there are people that either don't understand this or don't care. Both groups are what's wrong with the progressive trend we have seen here in our country. That doesn't bother you?
> 
> How about if Gass just builds a better product and let's the market decide if it's willing to buy it like it should be. Take the crony out of it please. My bet is he would have sold far more saws and been the pride of the industry. But that just isnt the case now is it.
> 
> ...


Sawstop as presented is a scam, it was built on FUD, Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt, and it is now impossible to argue against it with anyone that bought into it.

Was the destructive safety mechanism developed as a safety measure or an endless source of revenue?

He was forced to build his saws and compete on the open market, when he found he could not hold the established companies up for ransom.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

FrankC said:


> Was the destructive safety mechanism developed as a safety measure or an endless source of revenue?


I fair question. the answer might be "yes".

but one things for sure, figure out another way and you'll be rich.

how about a set of brake pads that clamp down on the blade? might not stop AS fast as a sawstop, but its got to atleast be the difference between a stitch and an amputation.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't know where to go with this...table saw injuries are widespread and well documented. The system as designed works to eliminate those dangers. Yes there's a cost to it activating, but so is there to the vast majority of safety systems around us...


The destructive brake is a line of last defense safety system. The injuries not prevented by the guard are prevented via a destructive method...I fail to see how this is a scam.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The problem with the sawstop is there is already millions of table saws already out there and it would be unfair to send them all to the scrap yard because someone came up with a gadget. As far as I know the device is only available on a table saw. What about all the radial arm saws, miter boxes, band saws, jointers, shapers and all the powered hand tools out there the sawstop isn't available for.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

No ones ever called for sending all the saws out there to the scrap yard. 

As for the other tools out there, why not attack the tool with the highest number of injuries first. I don't recall the exact number or the website, but I think it was osha, that had a report that showed something like 80% of wood shop injuries occurred on tablesaws. In the future of the technology can be adapted to other tools, I'm sure they will.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

His plan was to come up with a feature every manufacturer would have to use and it had to be easily adapted, hence the destructive brake.
Had he planned to manufacture saws and compete fairly I am sure a similar mechanism to the brake could have simply dropped the blade below the table, but that would mean redesigning all table saws which was not in the plan.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think dropping the blade is a perfect alternative as it could get hung up in whatever your cutting...keep in mind the tiny fraction of time it has to react and remove the danger.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> No ones ever called for sending all the saws out there to the scrap yard.
> 
> As for the other tools out there, why not attack the tool with the highest number of injuries first. I don't recall the exact number or the website, but I think it was osha, that had a report that showed something like 80% of wood shop injuries occurred on tablesaws. In the future of the technology can be adapted to other tools, I'm sure they will.


If someone is going to hurt themselves they are going to find a way no matter what gadget you come up with. Some folks shouldn't be allowed to do woodworking. One time I was working in a shop where a guy went to rip a piece of particle board on a table saw and the board had a staple hanging down and it hung on the table. The guy reached behind the blade to lift it up and first thing you know I was picking his thumb up off the floor. He was out for about six weeks and when he came back to work they found other work for the guy that didn't involve saws so they had him installing drawer guides. At the time we were using monorails and some of them had to be cut off. For this we just used a common hack saw. Within two weeks after that guy came back to work he cut the tendons off on his hand with the hack saw. 

In my shop I had a guy pull back the guard on a jointer and brush the dust off the machine while it was running and it took the ends off two of his fingers. It wasn't that he was new. I spent quite a while training him to be safe with the machine and he had been gluing up wood for different projects for about six months before he did this.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> No ones ever called for sending all the saws out there to the scrap yard.
> 
> As for the other tools out there, why not attack the tool with the highest number of injuries first. I don't recall the exact number or the website, but I think it was osha, that had a report that showed something like 80% of wood shop injuries occurred on tablesaws. In the future of the technology can be adapted to other tools, I'm sure they will.


Seriously???????????????

If you're that scared of woodworking tools (or life for that matter) why don't you find something "safer" to do and leave woodworking to those of us that don't mind living life without someone trying to protect our every move.

I was a firefighter for 35 years, I ran into buildings everybody else ran out of.....there's safety, and there's stupidity. You can take steps to be safe or you can try to wrap the world in bubble wrap because you think it will be better. *Requiring* something like sawstop is stupidity.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

what are your thoughts on riving knives or blade guards? how about airbags, ABS, or OSHA?

Without a doubt, IF they ever legislate table saw safety devices, it will be to protect shop employees from owners that think like that. It will start with commercial shops for sure, to protect workers. the hobbyist will probably be excluded.

Insurance companies arent discounting premiums because they THINK they are safer. They do the math, I promise.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I don't think dropping the blade is a perfect alternative as it could get hung up in whatever your cutting...keep in mind the tiny fraction of time it has to react and remove the danger.


It is just one alternative that has come up several times in discussion groups, it has been suggested anything that will activate a brake that quick could also be designed to force a blade down.
This is simply speculation by those that have not drunk the cool-aid and are looking at it with an open mind.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

ABS, seat belts and airbags? Absolutely.
My cars have lane departure warning, forward collision alert, blind spot warning and rear collision alert when backing up.
Personally I think they also should be mandatory to keep idiots from running into stuff making my premiums high.
We are not far off from cars being available to the masses that drive themselves.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok
We've beat the snot out of SawStop on a Festool thread.
Any comments on mandatory health insurance?
My policy went up 30% to cover the uninsured.
What's that about?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Sawstop as presented is a scam, it was built on FUD, Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt, and it is now impossible to argue against it with anyone that bought into it.
> 
> Was the destructive safety mechanism developed as a safety measure or an endless source of revenue?
> 
> He was forced to build his saws and compete on the open market, when he found he could not hold the established companies up for ransom.


Well said.

Al


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

unclefester said:


> Ok We've beat the snot out of SawStop on a Festool thread. Any comments on mandatory health insurance? My policy went up 30% to cover the uninsured. What's that about?


Your policy went up because your a hard working, tax paying, contributing member of society and your damned for it. With how policaly correct this country has gotten it'll be really
Hard to pay your bills on time soon enough. I'm 19 and after talking with a few older guys at work about how much things have changed over their lives it's got me nervous about how things will be in 10 or 20 years. 

My car insurance went up almost $100 this year with no new accidents or claims. Hell i haven't even called them in 2 years.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

wericha said:


> Seriously???????????????
> 
> If you're that scared of woodworking tools (or life for that matter) why don't you find something "safer" to do and leave woodworking to those of us that don't mind living life without someone trying to protect our every move.
> 
> I was a firefighter for 35 years, I ran into buildings everybody else ran out of.....there's safety, and there's stupidity. You can take steps to be safe or you can try to wrap the world in bubble wrap because you think it will be better. *Requiring* something like sawstop is stupidity.


Oh this is good. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

unclefester said:


> Ok
> We've beat the snot out of SawStop on a Festool thread.
> Any comments on mandatory health insurance?
> My policy went up 30% to cover the uninsured.
> What's that about?


Same here. But at least the policy was strong enough to not be canceled. And I didn't even have to call Sawstop.

A


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

BigJoe16 said:


> Your policy went up because your a hard working, tax paying, contributing member of society and your damned for it. With how policaly correct this country has gotten it'll be really
> Hard to pay your bills on time soon enough. I'm 19 and after talking with a few older guys at work about how much things have changed over their lives it's got me nervous about how things will be in 10 or 20 years.
> 
> My car insurance went up almost $100 this year with no new accidents or claims. Hell i haven't even called them in 2 years.


Hey big joe. Do us old guys a favor and call all your friends and buy HC. They were so sure you would and we were so sure you wouldn't. 

Al


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Hey big joe. Do us old guys a favor and call all your friends and buy HC. They were so sure you would and we were so sure you wouldn't. Al


What do you mean?


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> what are your thoughts on riving knives or blade guards? how about airbags, ABS, or OSHA?
> 
> Without a doubt, IF they ever legislate table saw safety devices, it will be to protect shop employees from owners that think like that. It will start with commercial shops for sure, to protect workers. the hobbyist will probably be excluded.
> 
> Insurance companies arent discounting premiums because they THINK they are safer. They do the math, I promise.


Riving knives and blade guards?

Whenever appropriate, they are used. If you work in my shop, you are provided with proper, functional, and reasonable safety equipment and are required to use it. If you want more enhanced safety equipment it will be provided if you can justify it, otherwise you will have to provide it yourself.

Airbags and ABS?

Properly applied they are exceptional safety features, but I have seen both cause greater harm in the wrong situation especially airbags. Bottom line, it should be my choice to use them or not.



> it will be to protect shop employees from owners that think like that


 Let me make something perfectly clear. I was a company/station officer at one of the busiest fire stations in the 8th largest city in the United States for 19 years. During that time only 1 of my crew members (other than myself) suffered a significant injury, a record I am incredibly proud of. My primary goal at the fire station, and at my place of business, has always been to ensure the health and safety of those who I am responsible for. Blather all you want about "protecting the worker". you don't have a clue about running a business or taking a reasonable approach to safety. 

If you are more comfortable with enhanced safety features like sawstop, then you should certainly purchase them for your use. Quit telling me I'm negligent because I don't use the same "protection", I'm intelligent enough to understand the risk.


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## BigJoe16 (Feb 20, 2012)

There is an inherent risk with everything you do. From driving to wood working, to cutting your lawn or using a snowblower. Many people have lost fingers on snowblowers. Should they mandate the same type of safety feature a saw stop has on a snowblower?

If your willing to use a table saw, your excepting the risk it presents. If you think someone else is responsible for your safety while using the saw, your wrong. It's up to the user to protect themselves and use the tool in a safe manner. 

I think the saw stop is a good idea. If I had the money and was looking at buying a new cabinet saw, there would more than likely be a saw stop in my garage. It's a great saw and you can't argue with the safety benefits. Some want to complain that the cost of false trips on the saw make it too expensive. If you were to think about the medical bills you'll have after even a minor table saw accident, they'll pay for quite a few reloads on the saw.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

actually lawn mowers and snowblowers have mechanisms to prevent injury that they didnt have 10-20 years ago. Used to be able to lock the blade on without holding a handle. Cant find a mower like that anymore...

There is a practical limit on cost/benefit. Sometimes the 2 are not recieved by the same person, IE insurance only sees benefit. Osha and unions (oh now I really started it) exist because employees cannot be held hostage for their jobs by employers that take risks with others well being.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The only lawn mower safety that doesn't suck is having to push the clutch to start it. The seat safety, killing the motor when you back up with the blades on, and having to be in neutral to start all suck. Getting stung by bees is a bigger danger anyway. I spend about 2,000 hours a year on a tractor, and I have never been hurt.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

First off the weenie test doesn't cut it with me. Let the hot dog push some wood through the blade and then touch the blade with the force required to cut wood. It's my understanding even with a trip the finger can still get cut up.

Al


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

If the technology didn't work.....there would be all kinds of stuff online about how the sawstop didn't function right and my hand is mangled.....where are the cases of it not working??


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> First off the weenie test doesn't cut it with me. Let the hot dog push some wood through the blade and then touch the blade with the force required to cut wood. It's my understanding even with a trip the finger can still get cut up.
> 
> Al





I agree. Im still waiting for someone to video themselves pushing a piece of 8/4 through as faster as itll go and blatantly leave their hand inline with the blade.


Any takers???


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> If the technology didn't work.....there would be all kinds of stuff online about how the sawstop didn't function right and my hand is mangled.....where are the cases of it not working??




We havent heard many stories about it not working for its intended purpose but we havent heard many of it working either. Everything Ive read is about false trips.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> I agree. Im still waiting for someone to video themselves pushing a piece of 8/4 through as faster as itll go and blatantly leave their hand inline with the blade.
> 
> 
> Any takers???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTUOhYcw4ZY&t=49

early they do it with a hotdog faster than Id ever push wood.

4min is a finger, not with much speed, but I wouldnt test fate on purpose either. didnt even cut the skin.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Chamfer said:


> I agree. Im still waiting for someone to video themselves pushing a piece of 8/4 through as faster as itll go and blatantly leave their hand inline with the blade.
> 
> 
> Any takers???


If you look at the pictures on people with cuts from a table saw and hear there stories. Many of them were making cuts they knew better than to do. 

The weenie is being pushed so slowly. I don't think I would cut my finger off either. And then there's that nasty kick back you will not be saved from.

Few owners have saved a finger but most have bought a new blade and brake. The thin kerf blade is a total loss with the stop.

Al


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

bauerbach said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTUOhYcw4ZY&t=49
> 
> early they do it with a hotdog faster than Id ever push wood.
> 
> 4min is a finger, not with much speed, but I wouldnt test fate on purpose either. didnt even cut the skin.





Please, that old video. A wet hot dog and a wet finger, combined with a 'Gassed up" production meant to promote his product.

Like I said, I wanna see Joe Blow with average moisture content hands run something through full tilt with a hand knowingly in the way.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Not Joe Blow, I think most of us would like to see Gass slide his back side into the blade. :laughing:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Not Joe Blow, I think most of us would like to see Gass slide his back side into the blade. :laughing:



Given the success his company has had in a pretty saturated market, Id say a pretty small group of people think that.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Not Joe Blow, I think most of us would like to see Gass slide his back side into the blade. :laughing:




He'd probably dunk that in water too.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Not Joe Blow, I think most of us would like to see Gass slide his back side into the blade. :laughing:


I'd buy a SawStop for the cheap whiny guy to see that.

Al


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Please, that old video. A wet hot dog and a wet finger, combined with a 'Gassed up" production meant to promote his product.
> 
> Like I said, I wanna see Joe Blow with average moisture content hands run something through full tilt with a hand knowingly in the way.


Ignorance is a choice I guess.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Not Joe Blow, I think most of us would like to see Gass slide his back side into the blade. :laughing:



Edit.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

so now we are wishing the guy would get injured/killed.

Even in jest, can we try to stay a little classy?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

bauerbach said:


> so now we are wishing the guy would get injured/killed.
> 
> Even in jest, can we try to stay a little classy?


Ok, I take back my first statement, but I would like to see him run his hand into it full speed ( with the sensor on ). He wouldn't get hurt with a live table saw the way he did it.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

look around you, probably need to look no farther than the cell phone in your pocket. Near every company is involved in some patent litigation, some attempt to leverage this or that into a legal advantage over the competition.

If this is a moral issue, to be consistent, you guys have ALOT of other companies to boycott. Like.... all of them.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Which is what I find so funny....boycotting sawstop for the same thing most companies do.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Since they couldn't compete legitimately in the marketplace, saw flop took the route of trying to legislate themselves into existence. Companies with integrity don't need to do that, only the ones appealing to the "nanny state, I'm afraid of my own shadow and need the government to protect me from the evil corporations" types that want to foist their fears and inadequacies on the rest of the world.

Hopefully saw flop will come to a swift yet painful demise.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

they cant compete? there is no legislation and they seem to be thriving...

you'll have to show me some of these "companies with integrity".

Im not sure there are any in the fortune 500... certainly none in the tech space where patents are a dominant source of revenue. I think I read samsung would spend 10billion in patent litigation over 10 years.


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## mnausa (Jan 10, 2015)

You can fault the man for what he tried to do. But you can't fault the machine. If you knew you were going to cut your finger off in the shop today. Who here would NOT want a saw stop?


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

mnausa said:


> You can fault the man for what he tried to do. But you can't fault the machine. If you knew you were going to cut your finger off in the shop today. Who here would NOT want a saw stop?


no one man.

injuries are always the operators fault. Stupid, careless operators. Thats not me!

*sticks head in the sand*


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*check back in 30 years .....*



bauerbach said:


> no one man.
> 
> injuries are always the operators fault. Stupid, careless operators. Thats not me!
> 
> *sticks head in the sand*


Neither of the 3 men I know who have suffered power tool injuries were stupid or careless. The injuries were not on the table saw however, but that' make no difference. Fatigue, repetitive operatons rushing late at night all combine for possible "bad results". 

I personally stuck a finger in a running end mill to brush away some chips long ago. That didn't go well, but nothing serious. I use a chip brush now for all my machine with spinning cutters.

Table saws are unique in that the blade is not always visible to the operator and may appear suddenly with bad results. Stay safe, keep your eye on the blade, fence, workpiece ......


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

wericha said:


> Since they couldn't compete legitimately in the marketplace, saw flop took the route of trying to legislate themselves into existence. Companies with integrity don't need to do that, only the ones appealing to the "nanny state, I'm afraid of my own shadow and need the government to protect me from the evil corporations" types that want to foist their fears and inadequacies on the rest of the world.
> 
> Hopefully saw flop will come to a swift yet painful demise.



How is sawstop flopping? They've entered a saturated tool market and have built a pretty strong brand in a very short time.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> How is sawstop flopping? They've entered a saturated tool market and have built a pretty strong brand in a very short time.


And you know this how? Or perhaps this is some of that misinformation based on conjecture and speculation you like to scold people about?

The company is privately held, so unless you have inside information any perceived success is speculation based on marketing and all the facts posted on the internet (if it's on the internet it has to be true!). GM was building and selling cars while drowning in debt, thanks in large part to costly and outrageous ransom being paid to the glorious unions. His technology has merit, but his methodology and business practices are despicable. I seriously doubt saw stop, as an entity, will survive 10 years. Hopefully much less.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

mnausa said:


> You can fault the man for what he tried to do. But you can't fault the machine. If you knew you were going to cut your finger off in the shop today. Who here would NOT want a saw stop?


"Who here would NOT want a saw stop?"

Maybe change that to "Who would not want a safety device on their saw?"


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

wericha said:


> And you know this how? Or perhaps this is some of that misinformation based on conjecture and speculation you like to scold people about?
> 
> The company is privately held, so unless you have inside information any perceived success is speculation based on marketing and all the facts posted on the internet (if it's on the internet it has to be true!). GM was building and selling cars while drowning in debt, thanks in large part to costly and outrageous ransom being paid to the glorious unions. His technology has merit, but his methodology and business practices are despicable. I seriously doubt saw stop, as an entity, will survive 10 years. Hopefully much less.





Well, as they produced their first production saw in November of 2004, they've already made it 10 years....

Companies that are floundering don't continue to introduce new products (jobsite saw, sliding table, ect), their also continuing to expand distribution pretty regularly, companies that can't sell their products aren't going to continue to sell sawstop, which doesn't appear to be the case at all. 

Now I don't have inside info that they're doing well or not, but they don't have any of the trademark signs of a business doing poorly.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

FrankC said:


> "Who here would NOT want a saw stop?"
> 
> Maybe change that to "Who would not want a safety device on their saw?"


That would be me. I don't like the idea of an electronic device on my machinery and I've heard too much about false breaking on the sawstop device. I might like it if it was a matter of resetting something like a circuit breaker and resume working but I don't want to have to play Mr. Goodwrench and pay a hundred bucks every time the thing malfunctioned even if it was only once a year.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Well, as they produced their first production saw in November of 2004, they've already made it 10 years....
> 
> Companies that are floundering don't continue to introduce new products (jobsite saw, sliding table, ect), their also continuing to expand distribution pretty regularly, companies that can't sell their products aren't going to continue to sell sawstop, which doesn't appear to be the case at all.
> 
> Now I don't have inside info that they're doing well or not, but they don't have any of the trademark signs of a business doing poorly.


In other words, nothing more than conjecture and speculation.:thumbdown:

Bernie Madoff was in business longer than that, and was soliciting new investors up until the day it all collapsed. GM was opening new dealerships and introducing new models weeks before they admitted they were collapsing. Exactly how does one trademark a failing scheme?

Gass has built his business on deception and fear mongering, coupled with trying to buy government mandates. For those who feel the need for the technology, I hope players like Bosch make it available and bury gASS.


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

I dont think that word means what you think it means...

but ok.


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

Hmm, clearly I can't read. I was sure this thread said Festool and the one above said Sawstop.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

sanchez said:


> Hmm, clearly I can't read. I was sure this thread said Festool and the one above said Sawstop.


After a thread runs a couple pages it's not uncommon for the topic to change. The worst part of it is everybody has made their point at least a half dozen times.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

sanchez said:


> Hmm, clearly I can't read. I was sure this thread said Festool and the one above said Sawstop.


Welcome to the internet! This happens every time someone says festool or sawstop, and occasionally when someone says porter cable, craftsman, or recommends a router


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Don't forget when someone recommends a new tool, old 3 phase tools, or something made in China.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Don't forget when someone recommends a new tool, old 3 phase tools, or something made in China.


Whelp, there goes everything anybody can talk about


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> they cant compete? there is no legislation and they seem to be thriving...
> 
> you'll have to show me some of these "companies with integrity".
> 
> Im not sure there are any in the fortune 500... certainly none in the tech space where patents are a dominant source of revenue. I think I read samsung would spend 10billion in patent litigation over 10 years.


And none of their patents have anything to do with my liberty. I don't have to buy a SawFlop thanks to those who saw through Gass.

Why do you think there is anything wrong with patents?

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

sanchez said:


> Hmm, clearly I can't read. I was sure this thread said Festool and the one above said Sawstop.


Guess you can't spell either. It's Fe$tool and SawFlop. 

Welcome the the thread where cheap guys try to defend a saw they can't afford and will never buy.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Bosch saw idea is already a better method. Won't ruin the blade and has two "charges" before having to spend money to saw a board again. Now all those safety guys don't have to buy a saw from a commie. 

Al


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Did the OP ever buy the Fe$tool??

HJ

Didn't even know who they were


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

epicfail48 said:


> Whelp, there goes everything anybody can talk about


We haven't beat up on Makita. Japanese not Chinese.
We've pretty well taken care of:
Fe$tool
Sawflop
Crapsman
Potty Cable

These should be off the table for a while.

I wonder if the OP bought a Stanley handsaw at HD or took up lava lamp repair. Woodworking is pretty tough out there.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Makita is frickin crazy with their white drills. Who wants white tools that can so easily get lost in the snow, and covered in mud when it rains.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> Makita is frickin crazy with their white drills. Who wants white tools that can so easily get lost in the snow, and covered in mud when it rains.


They're racist too. Ive never seen em make a black drill, how's that for equality


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

This thread is getting out of hand. If nobody has anything to discuss about Festool, and without arguing about it I'm going to lock it.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> This thread is getting out of hand. If nobody has anything to discuss about Festool, and without arguing about it I'm going to lock it.


A few were just getting started. I'm gonna miss the action.


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## adykhu55 (Mar 29, 2016)

*patent number?*

Does anyone have a domino, and if so, does it or the manual identify a US patent number? Or EP (European) patent number?


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

adykhu55 said:


> Does anyone have a domino, and if so, does it or the manual identify a US patent number? Or EP (European) patent number?


I just went out and looked at mine, I didn't see one. My German is a bit rusty though.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

adykhu55 said:


> Does anyone have a domino, and if so, does it or the manual identify a US patent number? Or EP (European) patent number?


Don't worry they will have it covered in every country that honors patents.


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## adykhu55 (Mar 29, 2016)

I've done a search at the USPTO and can't find it...so the number would be helpful!


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## MEP1 (Aug 14, 2015)

mnausa said:


> Sure. But I'm wondering if anyone new if there was a patent on the design.


You can patent a process and you can patent a particular design, but you can't patent an idea. Someone can come up with a different method of achieving the same end, patent and sell it, even if it works with Festool's domino dowels.


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## MEP1 (Aug 14, 2015)

unclefester said:


> Potty Cable


What's wrong with Porter Cable? I have a few of their tools and they've outperformed and outlasted ones twice the cost.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

MEP1 said:


> What's wrong with Porter Cable? I have a few of their tools and they've outperformed and outlasted ones twice the cost.



They don't meet some peoples ridiculous standards for quality. Most have no real issues with them.

What a lot of people forget, is that you should judge a tool by its quality and capability, not the brand residing on it.


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