# Japanese style black lacquer



## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Searched this Forum topic for any reference to the use of black lacquer (popular in Japanese finishing for fine furniture) but no responses showed up. Anyone have experience using black lacquer? Any clues to help me research this finish technique would be helpful!


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I use to do black lacquer on furniture and I used automotive finishes to accomplish that finish. The finish is the easy part. The prep work is the labor intensive part. Just do searches for spraying gloss (black) car finishes and do basically the same on wood. You'll have to fill the grain but there are a dozen ways to do that.

David


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Black lacquer should be easy enough. Seal the wood with a lacquer primer or lacquer sanding sealer and then topcoat with a high gloss black lacquer. It all has to be sprayed but should be very easy to do.


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## WeebyWoodWorker (Jun 11, 2017)

I've never done any finish like that before however I do know that a traditional black lacquer finish is a pain to do. It's not a Japanese video however it is still a very interesting how it's done traditionally.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Is there a difference in the technique used for black lacquer vs any other colored lacquer. Do the Japanese do anything different?

George


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

GeorgeC said:


> Is there a difference in the technique used for black lacquer vs any other colored lacquer. Do the Japanese do anything different?
> 
> George


lived in japan for 3 years, I doubt the Japanese invented it but certainly perfected it. it is very deep, no defects, and is so perfect you think it may be like a plastic. very impressive. haven't seen it on anything (except what I own) since I left.


tried to duplicate it here on a project line. bought a hvlp gun and black everything water base lacquer. read and read. sprayed many many coats. came close - but it was laborious. I'm sure with some practice, someone more talented in the finish world could do better.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

Twelve months to do a box? I have always admired the crafting and patience of the cultures in the Far East. Also, I have been surprised by the use of common items for crafting- charcoal and water, for instance. Who thought of using the swim bladder of a fish to make glue? I'm going to note the gentleman's name and see what else he has to offer in wood crafting. Thanks for the link.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

TimPa said:


> lived in japan for 3 years, I doubt the Japanese invented it but certainly perfected it. it is very deep, no defects, and is so perfect you think it may be like a plastic. very impressive. haven't seen it on anything (except what I own) since I left.
> 
> 
> tried to duplicate it here on a project line. bought a hvlp gun and black everything water base lacquer. read and read. sprayed many many coats. came close - but it was laborious. I'm sure with some practice, someone more talented in the finish world could do better.


I would not expect water based lacquer to have as good a finish. The many, many coats is the key to success of all of the Japanese work I have seen. 

Time and patience is the only difference that I am aware of. Thought that maybe someone on here may know something in addition.

Where were you in Japan? I spent over 2 years on Okinawain '60 to '62. In those days we did not consider it Japan.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> Is there a difference in the technique used for black lacquer vs any other colored lacquer. Do the Japanese do anything different?
> 
> George


There is a difference in Japanese lacquer. It's derived from the sap from a lacquer tree and pigmented black. It's a better product and more durable than the synthetic product produced by the paint companies. It's also more dangerous to work with. It can give you a rash like you got into poison ivy.

Normally a lacquer finish is very thin. The Japanese lacquer look you can do with synthetic lacquers but it has to be a lot thicker and rubbed out and buffed to a very shinny sheen. Going thick with lacquer means a lot more drying time between coats. It can easily crack if rushed.


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> Black lacquer should be easy enough. Seal the wood with a lacquer primer or lacquer sanding sealer and then topcoat with a high gloss black lacquer. It all has to be sprayed but should be very easy to do.


Would an unwaxed shellac (Sealcoat) work under lacquer!


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

GeorgeC said:


> Where were you in Japan? I spent over 2 years on Okinawain '60 to '62. In those days we did not consider it Japan.
> 
> George


after my 4 yr air force career - '79-'82 Kadena AB gs-14 civilian contractor for goodyear aerospace. what about you George?
'60 - '62 were serious years


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

WeebyWoodWorker said:


> DID SOMEONE SAY JAPAN!?
> 
> I've never done any finish like that before however I do know that a traditional black lacquer finish is a pain to do. It's not a Japanese video however it is still a very interesting how it's done traditionally. How a traditional Korean inlaid lacquer box is made - YouTube


I’d seen this two part video on YouTube where they mix lye and iron sulfate to make the black pigment to add to raw lacquer. What I’m hoping to find are step by steps for applying it to a table to get that deep, high gloss appearance. My plan is to have sides and top in black with shaped maple legs.


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

GeorgeC said:


> Is there a difference in the technique used for black lacquer vs any other colored lacquer. Do the Japanese do anything different?
> 
> George


I would think the color doesn’t matter, black or otherwise. This will be my first attempt at using color, other than stain, on a piece. I think a Luthier may be my best source for techniques to get what I want, but was hoping someone on here might give me some direction.


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

TimPa said:


> lived in japan for 3 years, I doubt the Japanese invented it but certainly perfected it. it is very deep, no defects, and is so perfect you think it may be like a plastic. very impressive. haven't seen it on anything (except what I own) since I left.
> 
> 
> tried to duplicate it here on a project line. bought a hvlp gun and black everything water base lacquer. read and read. sprayed many many coats. came close - but it was laborious. I'm sure with some practice, someone more talented in the finish world could do better.


You’re right, it sounds very laborious! But I’m hoping for a high luster finish like you’d find on a guitar. If that takes a while to create, so be it!


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> There is a difference in Japanese lacquer. It's derived from the sap from a lacquer tree and pigmented black. It's a better product and more durable than the synthetic product produced by the paint companies. It's also more dangerous to work with. It can give you a rash like you got into poison ivy.
> 
> Normally a lacquer finish is very thin. The Japanese lacquer look you can do with synthetic lacquers but it has to be a lot thicker and rubbed out and buffed to a very shinny sheen. Going thick with lacquer means a lot more drying time between coats. It can easily crack if rushed.


Any idea if there are any commercial lacquers available that are close to the Japanese raw lacquer? I imagine getting the materials for raw lacquer is impossible here in the US, so what are other options?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

TimPa said:


> after my 4 yr air force career - '79-'82 Kadena AB gs-14 civilian contractor for goodyear aerospace. what about you George?
> '60 - '62 were serious years


My station was right outside Kadena. I retired from the AF in 1982 at Eglin AFB and purchased a Feed and Seed business. Ran that until 1998 when I sold it. 

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sherwoodworker said:


> Any idea if there are any commercial lacquers available that are close to the Japanese raw lacquer? I imagine getting the materials for raw lacquer is impossible here in the US, so what are other options?


I really can't answer your question. I just looked up the origins of lacquer one time and thought it was interesting that someone would make a product out of something that would give you the itchy. I mean I've got poison oak growing all over my place and I go to great lengths to stay away from the stuff. 

The appearance of the synthetic lacquer is going to look the same if applied thick enough. Normally a lacquer finish is applied 3 mils thick where the Japanese lacquer may be closer to 12. Sherwin Williams sells a lacquer called Bushwacker White Lacquer Undercoater which you could build most of the thickness. They can tint it to where it isn't completely snow white. This would help a great deal in preventing the finish from cracking however when you do a thick finish you have to allow a lot longer drying time. I wouldn't apply more than one coat of primer per day in warm weather. If it's cool and or damp where you are one coat every three days is probably warranted. The main thing is that the surface you lacquer is completely smooth. It's suppose to be completely free of defects and polished to a high gloss which tends to show the most minor defect.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sherwoodworker said:


> Would an unwaxed shellac (Sealcoat) work under lacquer!


Either standard shellac or unwaxed shellac is compatible with lacquer however I don't think it would make a good foundation for what you are doing. You are needing to build thickness and shellac tends to crack when thick. You would be better off with lacquer sanding sealer or lacquer primer.


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> Sherwin Williams sells a lacquer called Bushwacker White Lacquer Undercoater which you could build most of the thickness. They can tint it to where it isn't completely snow white.


Thanks for that info. Do they possibly carry a black undercover? or can they tint as the customer request?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sherwoodworker said:


> Thanks for that info. Do they possibly carry a black undercover? or can they tint as the customer request?


That is something I'm unable to look up. Any info on products is in PDF form and my computer won't open it. 

When searching Sherwin Williams look for Opex L61 Production lacquer. I do have a 1992 booklet from Sherwin Williams and they show a B61 B 1 Opex Lacquer Primer Surfacer which is their black primer for the L61 Production Lacquer. 

They can tint primer however if it's white they can only darken it just so much. Probably a medium gray is the best you can hope for.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

we buy our water based black primer and lacquers here.
https://www.targetcoatings.com/


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Steve... thanks, I'll look it up online. Or stop in our local SW store and talk to a living, breathing person!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sherwoodworker said:


> Steve... thanks, I'll look it up online. Or stop in our local SW store and talk to a living, breathing person!


Better grab the manager. Lacquer products are more of a professional line of products. Most Sherwin Williams stores are geared for house painting.


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## Tom-G (Nov 11, 2012)

TimPa said:


> we buy our water based black primer and lacquers here.
> https://www.targetcoatings.com/


In late January, they were running a 25% off special on some products. The code was JF25. Not sure if still valid.


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

TimPa, thanks for that link. I may try out their tinted water based lacquer for a kitchen island project. But for the black project, I’ll stick to a nitro cellulose lacquer!


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## Sherwoodworker (Feb 8, 2018)

Steve, I’ll check in advance... have to wait for warmer weather anyhow... gotta spray this stuff outside!


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