# Crosscutting on TS - Safety, Sleds, Beginner Tips?



## TimeTurnsElastic (May 4, 2015)

My scms recently bit the dust. I've always relied pretty much exclusively on miter saws for my crosscuts and table saw as a ripping machine. Being unprepared to shell out for a new miter saw I figured this would be a good opportunity to expand my skill set. I do have a decent Incra miter gauge but have just never felt entirely comfortable cross cutting on the table saw. 

- Any good safety tips or practices?
- Thoughts on sleds vs miter gauges?
- How about sleds that can be used in conjunction with miter gauges? (I know Incra's Miter Express does just that -- but price is steep, so I'm wondering if anyone's made any shop built jigs like it)

Yes yes I know there's a million YouTube how-to's. But I trust you people a lot more! If you can point me to any specific instructionals, plans, etc, that would be greatly appreciated. Or just your own general wisdom. Thanks in advance!


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

The newest issue of "Woodsmith" has an extensive article on table saw sleds.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*sled vs miter gauge*

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/miter-gauges-one-13121/

The issue with a miter gauge is that it often is loose in the slot allowing for some inaccuracy. The better ones have adjustment set crews in the sides that expand the bar to fit snugly, and that's the best kind. The other issue is that the bars are often too short, see the photo below, and your crosscut width is somewhat limited. I have been known to turn the gauge around "backwards" to cut a wider piece than normal. Finally the stock gauges faces aren't wide enough, but most allow for a secondary wood fence to be attached to the face. This is the single best addition you can make for a miter gauge. My miter gauge fences are about 18" to 24" long and about 3" tall making a cross cut very well supported on both sides of the blade AND allowing you to push your workpiece and the cut off all the way past the rear of the blade. Additional, the kerf made into the fence allows for precision cuts by aligning the mark on the kerf:



A sled is a good solution for cross cutting as well. The work piece and the cut off is supported on either side of the blade and like the fence mentioned above, you can determine exactly where the cut will be made by the kerf in the front fence. A lage capacity sled will be heavy if extended in front the blade based on the width, front to back. A smaller sled will be lighter, but have a limited cross cut capacity. Like any machine used to cross cut, miter saw, RAS, table saw, the width capacity is a determining factor. 

Here's a nice sled made by our member AL B Thayer:


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

If you can find a copy of the book "Jim Tolpin's Table Saw Basics" (or similar), it will give many full illustrations/ideas that will answer most of your TS questions. Be safe.


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## Kerrys (May 2, 2016)

woodchux said:


> If you can find a copy of the book "Jim Tolpin's Table Saw Basics" (or similar), it will give many full illustrations/ideas that will answer most of your TS questions. Be safe.


Table saw magic? https://www.amazon.com/Tolpins-Tabl...-fkmr1&keywords=Jim+Tolpin's+Table+Saw+BasicS


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

If you have a decent TS, it should have more potential for accuracy than your miter saw for all but really long pieces. I also have always considered crosscutting on a TS to be safer than a rip cut...I could be wrong, but ripping always seemed like there was more potential for trouble. 

Your Incra miter gauge should be really good. Get the miter slot adjustments dialed in, and double check the head for squareness. If it's a basic model, adding a fence should help. If it already has a fence your good to go.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Sleds are good to have. I have a big one and a small one. I do 95% of my crosscuts on my RAS.
I really like the small (just wide enough to use 2 miter bars) sled for cutting short pieces. 
I also have an Incra 1000SE that I don't use that often, but really like the fence on it, with the micro adjust, and flip stops.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*probably so, but ....*



notskot said:


> If you have a decent TS, it should have more potential for accuracy than your miter saw for all but really long pieces. *I also have always considered crosscutting on a TS to be safer than a rip *cut...I could be wrong, but ripping always seemed like there was more potential for trouble.


Crosscutting using a fence on the miter gauge face is very safe since it pushes both the workpiece and the cut off through and out the backside of the spinning blade... no need to grab either piece to move it away from the blade.

However, there is no woodworking tool that can cut the length of wood straighter and more accurately than a table saw with a good* rip fence* ... they actually come as standard accessory equipment with new saws.:surprise2:

How to *do this safely *is the subject of thousands of post here and else where on the net. I probably have made a few thousand of those posts myself. :smile3: 

Table saws also come with riving knives or splitters depending on the age of the saw and they allow safer ripping by maintaining constant contact/registration with the work and the fence the absence of which is the major cause of kickback. There is no substitute for keeping your hands and fingers away from the line of cut when ripping and using a push stick when the work is too narrow to push through by hand.

Full disclosure here... I don't always use a push stick when there is plenty of room to the right of the blade and the fence, but my splitter stays on the saw at all times.

The "red zone" denoted by the throat plate on most saws is the danger zone for hands and fingers and keep them out of that area for obvious reasons.


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## TimeTurnsElastic (May 4, 2015)

Thanks guys for all the advice. "Table Saw Magic" on order from Amazon.

George, coincidentally just yesterday I got one of those 'free trial issue' subscription cards from Woodsmith. I'll have to see about getting the back issue of that one, or maybe pick it up at Rockler.

I have an Incra 1000se. There's no denying it makes my saw a more accurate cross cutting tool than the miter saw. But for the speed of setting up cuts and probably because a CMS was the first toothy power tool I ever used, it's just what I instinctively reach for when I need to crosscut. In that sense maybe it's been a bit of a crutch. 

At work I've had a couple instances on the TS with the junky stock miter gauge, where the work piece broke, shooting a piece of stock backward at high velocity. Slop in the miter slot and not taking the time to put on a secondary fence probably played a part, but it's still hard not to have those incidences in the back of my head.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Unless you are needing to cut thick material you can make excellent cross cuts with a hand held circular saw. Just make a T-square cheater board to use with the saw and the parts will be more accurate than cut on a table saw with a miter gauge or a radial arm saw.


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## ducbsa (Jul 6, 2014)

Regarding using a TS for crosscuts on long pieces, a rough cut can be made with a circular saw and then trimmed as needed, using a sled or miter gauge as appropriate.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Unless you are needing to cut thick material you can make excellent cross cuts with a hand held circular saw. Just make a T-square cheater board to use with the saw and the parts will be more accurate than cut on a table saw with a miter gauge or a radial arm saw.



Steve. Can you explain why it would be more accurate.
More accurate? I doubt it (At least not with my ts, and ras)
Maybe, as accurate. 

ducbsa wrote " Regarding using a TS for crosscuts on long pieces, a rough cut can be made with a circular saw and then trimmed as needed, using a sled or miter gauge as appropriate. wrote "

In the past, before having a ras, making crosscuts in 8'+ pieces of wood was not fun.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Pirate said:


> Steve. Can you explain why it would be more accurate.
> More accurate? I doubt it (At least not with my ts, and ras)
> Maybe, as accurate.
> 
> ...


A miter gauge for a table saw is difficult to get adjusted to exactly 90 degrees and if you do tends to not stay there. Then a radial arm saw tends to deflect some. More often than not the groove in the table is 1/4" wide from it. 

I got to where I was squaring my cabinet door panels with the circular saw and then cut them to length against the fence of my table saw. The setup would cut them perfectly square every time.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Unless you are needing to cut thick material you can make excellent cross cuts with a hand held circular saw. Just make a T-square cheater board to use with the saw and* the parts will be more accurate than cut on a table saw with a miter gauge or a radial arm saw*.


My radial arm saw is the best machine for cross cutting I own, and is very accurate. It has extended tables on the right and left of the blade for supporting longer pieces which is the key to accuracy. I've always said "long pieces ... move the saw, shorter pieces ... move the work." A miter gauge in the table saw is just fine for cross cutting pieces under 5 ft long, but more than that, it tends to be difficult to maintain registration. 

I bought my first cross cut guide more than 45 years ago when I got my first Skil saw at age 15. I still have it and I use it when I'm working outside with long planks for framing. I just finished a siding repair project where I used my Bosch 10" sliding miter saw for cutting the 14 ft long pieces in half. They were supported on either side by stands, so cutting them
accurately was easy. I would not have used the guide and circular saw for this project.... :frown2:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> My radial arm saw is the best machine for cross cutting I own, and is very accurate. It has extended tables on the right and left of the blade for supporting longer pieces which is the key to accuracy. I've always said "long pieces ... move the saw, shorter pieces ... move the work." A miter gauge in the table saw is just fine for cross cutting pieces under 5 ft long, but more than that, it tends to be difficult to maintain registration.
> 
> I bought my first cross cut guide more than 45 years ago when I got my first Skil saw at age 15. I still have it and I use it when I'm working outside with long planks for framing. I just finished a siding repair project where I used my Bosch 10" sliding miter saw for cutting the 14 ft long pieces in half. They were supported on either side by stands, so cutting them
> accurately was easy. I would not have used the guide and circular saw for this project.... :frown2:


Very likely I have the same model Craftsman radial arm saw you do. I also have a 20' long table it's mounted on. It's a bit underpowered but does a pretty good job but I wouldn't call it accurate. It might cut one board perfect and the next maybe off 1/16" at the end of the 14" or so travel it has. Then what happens when you need to square a 20" wide board. The radial arm saw won't do it and is pretty awkward on a table saw. The miter gauge is more off the table than on and is difficult to keep the wood held to the miter gauge if it's perfectly squared. The jig I built you just lay it on the panel and make the cut. You don't even have to clamp it down. 

I did buy a 16" Dewalt industrial radial arm saw in 2014 but haven't had time to set it up so I don't know how accurate it is. I need to set it up were the building is still under construction. Still the old table it had on it had a groove where the blade is that is about 1/2" wide so I have some doubts. Right now I expect more HP but about the same accuracy as the Craftsman. I've worked in several shops that wouldn't have a radial arm saw in the building because they are inherently not accurate.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*please no blanket staements!*



Steve Neul said:


> Right now I expect more HP but about the same accuracy as the Craftsman. I've worked in several shops that wouldn't have a radial arm saw in the building *because they are inherently not accurate.*


Some shops would not be without one... just sayin'
Sliding table saws and panel saws have replaced the RAS in the commercial shops I've been in lately.

Some radial arms saws are not accurate because they are just not made well, others in my opinion need better adjustment in the carriage bearings. The older Craftsman's are on cams which allow you to take up any play in the carriage and tune it for skew as you pull the saw away from the fence. Some bearings and tracks may be very worn out and that's the reason for lack of accuracy. If there is lateral play in the arm that's an adjustment. If the groove in the table is 1/2", fix it or pitch it. 

Even my zero clearance throat plate in the table saw gets a bit worbbled out after some use, so I just fix it or replace it. I wouldn't be without my RAS, a 12" Craftsman from the '80 or 90's.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Some shops would not be without one... just sayin'
> Sliding table saws and panel saws have replaced the RAS in the commercial shops I've been in lately.
> 
> Some radial arms saws are not accurate because they are just not made well, others in my opinion need better adjustment in the carriage bearings. The older Craftsman's are on cams which allow you to take up any play in the carriage and tune it for skew as you pull the saw away from the fence. Some bearings and tracks may be very worn out and that's the reason for lack of accuracy. If there is lateral play in the arm that's an adjustment. If the groove in the table is 1/2", fix it or pitch it.
> ...


I was wrong about having the same model saw you have, mine is a 10" saw from about 1973. I like a radial arm saw too but there is some things I won't do on one. The last shop I worked for had a job which was perfectly suited for and I suggested to the owner it would be a lot easier if we had a radial arm saw. He responded by saying he once had one and nobody would use it so he got rid of it. 

I'm probably on my third set of carriage bearings on my Craftsman. Even with a new set there is only a marginal improvement with accuracy. I think the saws, especially the home model saws would do better if you couldn't swing the arm for miters or tilt the arbor or rip with them. All these different functions lead to the saw slipping out of adjustment. I use mine just for cut off.


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