# Uneven cuts with table saw



## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

Hi folks.

I just bought a table saw, my first.
Primarily I work with hand tools, supplied by a band saw, but by a sudden inspiration a bought this Bosch Pts 10.

But the surface of the cuts are far from satisfying.

Crosscutting, the blade will wander as much as half a mm across the surface, making it very uneven, like a stair, though the piece of wood may not be 
more than 2x3 cm and softwood.

Ripping also gives similar results, and the piece of wood will often bind and I have to stop.

My materials are straight and flat, the saw is set up correctly, as concerns equal distance from fence to blade etc.

The crosscuts are actually straight both horizontally and vertically, but this cut surface is bad.

I use the blade that came with the saw, could this blade be the cause, a mediocre quality possibly?

Blades that come with machines are not the best.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yes, stock blades are not great*

If there are circular arcs that look like the saw blade with slight irregularities, it's probably the blade. Does it wobble either when up to full RPMs or upon shut down? How many teeth are on the blade? If there are 40 teeth or more, the cut should be of fair to good quality. Fewer than 40 teeth may leave the aforementioned saw marks. 

how about a photo of the blade and some cuts?


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

Good advice from previous post. Also consider the arbor & threaded flanged nut which could be damaged, that holds the blade in place. In your judgement it may be the flatness of the blade that came with that TS. Hopefully those parts are available at a reasonable price to replace. Be safe.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

It is easy to check blade runout. Mark one tooth. Position a piece of wood very close to that tooth, hand turn the blade watching the gap. if the gap changes there are 3 possibilities. #1 crappy blade (probably!) #2 arbor flange runout, difficult to correct w/o machining. #3 the arbor shaft itself not being straight or having excessive clearance to the blade bore. #'s 2 & 3 will best be measured with a dial indicator and are difficult to fix. For most home type work a decent combination carbide blade works fine. Freud 10", 50 tooth, combination, ATB costs about $35 and is an OK blade. A step up in quality would be Amana @ about $60. You can get blades as cheap as $10 but....! Don't get too fine of blade (too many teeth) you saw is too underpowered for those. Also, dedicated cross cut or rip blades will work better for their intended use but it is a PIA to change them out for the home shop.


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## Wayne Twaddell (Feb 16, 2017)

You may also wish to consider the straightness of the fence. I'm not familiar with that particular saw but I do know I've had to modify or replace every fence on every saw I've ever owned. Once your fence is set take two measurements from the distance of the edge of the table to the face of the fence. Do this from both the near and far side of the fence. 

If you could snap some pictures it would help.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*run out vs sweet spot*



Larry Schweitzer said:


> It is easy to check blade runout. Mark one tooth. Position a piece of wood very close to that tooth, hand turn the blade watching the gap. if the gap changes there are 3 possibilities. #1 crappy blade (probably!) #2 arbor flange runout, difficult to correct w/o machining. #3 the arbor shaft itself not being straight or having excessive clearance to the blade bore. #'s 2 & 3 will best be measured with a dial indicator and are difficult to fix. For most home type work a decent combination carbide blade works fine. Freud 10", 50 tooth, combination, ATB costs about $35 and is an OK blade. A step up in quality would be Amana @ about $60. You can get blades as cheap as $10 but....! Don't get too fine of blade (too many teeth) you saw is too underpowered for those. Also, dedicated cross cut or rip blades will work better for their intended use but it is a PIA to change them out for the home shop.



Good advice above. :thumbsup: You can do one more test on your saw to find if your present blade has a runout condition. Use the method described above but stop at 90 degrees apart. Loosen the blade on the arbor/shaft, but DO NOT let the shaft rotate. Then advance the blade 90 degrees, like from 3:00 o'clock to 6:00 o'clock and then retighten and check. It may have a favorite place on the shaft where it will run best, the sweet spot. 0


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

woodnthings said:


> If there are circular arcs that look like the saw blade with slight irregularities, it's probably the blade. Does it wobble either when up to full RPMs or upon shut down? How many teeth are on the blade? If there are 40 teeth or more, the cut should be of fair to good quality. Fewer than 40 teeth may leave the aforementioned saw marks-
> how about a photo of the blade and some cuts?


Ok, here are some picts. This is a 45 degree cut in 4x4 cm pine.

Crosscuts are not that uneven.
The fence cannot be clamped and then go ahead cutting, it does not lock straight.
If the cut is on the right side of the blade, the fence needs to be pushed so far it will go to the right and then locked.

On the left side it must be moved somewhat to the left to parallel to the blade and then locked. This is a bit tiresome.

The blade is a 40 teeth Bosch Optiline.

I will try some of the advice given concerning measuring evt. wobling of the blade.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

About tuning a saw. The blade & the fence should be set to the miter gage slot, not the edge of the table. The reason is simple, the slot can not be changed the blade position and fence can be. Adjusting the blade on this type of saw is not as easy as on a cabinet saw but can be done and likely needs to be done. Always use the same tooth on the blade as a reference. use a feeler gage to measure it. it will take some fooling around to get there but worth the effort and once done and locked in it should hold for a long time. Setting the fence parallel to the miter slot is pretty easy. It is done by adjusting the fence on the rail. The rail may not be straight so you need to check that. The time it takes is worth it. You may spend an entire evening and still it won't be perfect but much better. 
Every saw can be improved. Where you decide good enough is good enough depends on you and your saw. There are limits to the saw and your patience. I've been through the process with every saw I've owned, including our Schelling beam saw.


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

I see, but adjusting the parallellness of the blade implies a mechanism for this.
As far as I know , there is no such thing on this machine, at least it is not described in the manual.
But I can take a look underneath.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

Good advice all around. Just remember to unplug the TS when working on it.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

without going into long long long quotes and counter-points - your saw is not - contrary to your earlier post - 'set up' correctly.

if you run a 45' using the miter gauge and you have a divot in the middle there are only two possibilities
- the saw blade is moving left-right during the cut 
or 
- you are moving the work piece left-right over the length of the cut.

work piece movement also depends on the miter gauge being "tight" in the slot. if the miter gauge slops around in the slot everything wobbles in every direction.

if the blade is not dancing around, whether it is perfectly parallel to the miter gauge slot or not does not enter the issue. it'll produce a wider kerf - but a straight kerf.

the 40 tooth blade explains the ragged cross cut - but not the waving cut line.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it is unlikely, but possible*



ornulv said:


> I see, but adjusting the parallellness of the blade implies a mechanism for this.
> As far as I know , there is no such thing on this machine, at least it is not described in the manual.
> But I can take a look underneath.


It is easy to check the plane of the blade by using a straight edge flat on the table, missing the teeth and holding it in place with a magnet ... if the table is not aluminum. Measure over to the slot in front and behind the blade and the numbers should be identical or within .001 or so.

Usually the motor and carriage is bolted to the bottom of the table with 3 or 4 bolts. If you determine the blade is NOT parallel to the miterslot, loosen all but one of the bolts slightly enough to lever the assembly into parallelism, then snug the remaining bolts.


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

Wayne Twaddell said:


> You may also wish to consider the straightness of the fence. I'm not familiar with that particular saw but I do know I've had to modify or replace every fence on every saw I've ever owned. Once your fence is set take two measurements from the distance of the edge of the table to the face of the fence. Do this from both the near and far side of the fence.
> 
> If you could snap some pictures it would help.



The saw is working better now, a tiny adjustment of the machine body made it parallel to the slots within 1/20 mm.

As for the uneveness of the miter cuts, can they, as suggested, be attributed to my inexperience and to the blade,
but there is no wobbling, I checked as suggested in this forum.

Have ordered 2 quality blades, one with 24 and one 60 tooth.

The fence has no adjusting mechanism, the rail is an integral part of the table, and the fence itself has no adjustments, except for the tightness
of the handle, but it seems possible to acquire an aptness for placing it in the correct position before locking it-

Many thanks.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

"The fence has no adjusting mechanism,"

this is very difficult to believe. somewhere there's some bolts, spacers, stops, something that will allow you to set the fence parallel to the miter gauge slots.


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

TomCT2 said:


> "The fence has no adjusting mechanism,"
> 
> this is very difficult to believe. somewhere there's some bolts, spacers, stops, something that will allow you to set the fence parallel to the miter gauge slots.


Well, actually there is not any room for adjustments, the two bolts on the top only serve to loosen the fence from the handle,
it is not possible to move the fence sideways.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

perhaps you are missing some parts?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It won't take much ...*



ornulv said:


> Well, actually there is not any room for adjustments, the two bolts on the top only serve to loosen the fence from the handle,
> it is not possible to move the fence sideways.



With the fence handle locked down, loosen the bolts on top and see if you can move the far end at all. Then, align the close end to the miter slot and move the far end so the body of the fence is parallel with the slot.... it won't take much. :|Tighten both bolts.


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## 42cracks (Mar 12, 2017)

*Fence setting - RUle of thumb*



ornulv said:


> Well, actually there is not any room for adjustments, the two bolts on the top only serve to loosen the fence from the handle,
> it is not possible to move the fence sideways.


That guide is just like mine (beggars cannot be choosers). Loosening the two bolt heads allows enough wiggle room to straighten the fence. I'm sure it wasn't made so badly it cannot be straightened this way. 

Loosen the two bolt heads, slide the fence up to the blade. Keeping the fence in contact with the blade FRONT and BACK, clamp the handle down, then tighten the bolts. Loosen the fence, move it away from the blade, then bring it back, lock it with the clamp handle, and re-check that it's still touching the blade at the front AND back.

Repeat until remains parallel to blade.


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

woodnthings said:


> With the fence handle locked down, loosen the bolts on top and see if you can move the far end at all. Then, align the close end to the miter slot and move the far end so the body of the fence is parallel with the slot.... it won't take much. :|Tighten both bolts.


As you see from the picture, there is no space between the fence, and the protrusion from the handle into the fence, for movement.
There is a slight sideward looseness when the bolts are unfastened, but upon tightening it goes back to original position.

The fence itself is not flat, its slightly convex on side and concave on the other.

The image from TomCT2 is, I think, from a previous model, and shows a gadget that can be employed when sawing thin strips of wood.

My picture shows a newer version of the jig.

Would it be a good idea to fasten plywood on both sides of the fence, using washers to achieve the correct angle towards the blade,
thereby also nullify the concavity/convexity of the fence?

I imagined using some strong double sided mounting tape I have.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

if the fence proper is not straight - ie has wavy areas - then something mounted to the side is indeed a good idea.

to align the fence parallel to the miter slots, there's many options but the biggies:

- modify the fence for adjustment
- modify the fence mount for adjustment
- shim where the rail mounts to the saw table so the fence is right.

keep in mind, anything that is adjustable can, and will, eventually 'go out' of perfect adjustment. the bottom line to that issue is: adjustments that are difficult/tricky once, and difficult/tricky "all the time"

unfortunately you don't have years of experience with this machine to "know" which method might be best. if the fence is rock solid in it's sliding mount, shimming the rail it rides on is a "permanent" solution.

here's how Delta / Biesemeyer handle it... in the back bracket of the fence are "white plastic pads" at each end mounted on a flexible metal strip which can be moved in/out via a set screw. pix below. very little range of motion is needed because it is so close to the pivot point.

you could duplicate this fairly easily by drilling & tapping holes in your fence bracket and using set screws to control the square when the fence is tighten. you'll want set screws with a "ball end" - not a cup or a point. the drilled / tapped holes need to be tight, not sloppy, to prevent the set screws from vibrating out of adjustment. or, use teflon type plumbing tape to make the 'snug' in the thread.

if you add to the fence to get rid of the wavy - theory holds you could make that pc "adjustable" - keep in mind, it has to adjust clockwise and counter-clockwise 
plus
you have to do that on both sides - if you need to tilt the blade there are situations where you must use the fence on the 'opposite' side of the blade
plus 
the added fixture must be vertical and not give.
basically, four points of adjustment on both sides of the fence....

I would recommend you first investigate what part of the mechanism is causing the fence to be 'not parallel' - either the fence mount to the slide, or the rail mount to the table.

you can also "straighten" the aluminum fence (it's hollow, right?) inserting a carefully cut strip of wood; fasten with countersunk screws....


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## ornulv (Mar 8, 2017)

TomCT2 said:


> if the fence proper is not straight - ie has wavy areas - then something mounted to the side is indeed a good idea.
> 
> to align the fence parallel to the miter slots, there's many options but the biggies:
> 
> ...


I have now fastened a length of 12 mm plywood on both sides of the fence, using strong double sided tape, and adjusted, using more or less tape, 
for adjusting misalignment with the blade.
Thereby also flattening the fence on both sides.
I cannot use the attachment for sawing thin pieces, but there are options for this kind of sawing.

As you seem very familiar with the table saw, what would you deem the most important safety measures using this machine.
I know one should stand to the side of the cutting line of the blade, use push sticks, (I will not be using push blocks, they seem quite dangerous),
align the fence with the blade, never pick up anything from the table before full stop of the blade.
I have made this push-handle, that also presses the work piece downwards, with a dowel protruding underneath the handle, to push the wood forwards.
And use you head!

Any good advice?


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

the only "magic rule" for safety is THINK FIRST.

not being directly inline with the blade is good practice - if the saw kicks back you're not in the way. sometimes it's not possible.

my primary rule is "never take your eye off the part that bites" - being distracted and pushing your fingers into the tool is surprisingly common....

and the other thing that greatly contributes to "let's not have an accident today" is having the machinery and supports / guides / etc all set up and 'dry run' before making tricky cuts. think through what you're going to do before turning on the machine.

ripping 2-3 inches off a 2x4 plywood pc and "discovering" half way thru the saw cut that there's nothing on the outfeed to support the plywood after it's cut makes for trying to do awkward things that frequently do not end well.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

I think one of the most important safety rules is to always use a riving knife or splitter/blade guard to keep kickback from happening in the first place, standing off to the side on each and every cut just isn't possible/practical. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Using the splitter will help prevent kick backs. I'm old and the only power tool that has ever taken a bite out of me was a table saw. I was lucky, all I've got to show for it is a scar. 
We used to have a Unisaw in the shop but I replaced it with a SawStop. Well worth the $. Twice it has saved employees from the blade. Very minor nicks instead of missing parts. These were experienced guys.


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