# Built-In Kitchen Cabinet Stripping & Restoration ... Let Me Draw on Your Expertise



## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

*Built-In Kitchen Cabinet Stripping & Restoration ... Let Me Draw on Your Expertise*

Hey folks,
I'm stripping, repairing, and refinishing 90 year old kitchen built-in cabinets in my rental apartment ... as one can imagine they're rather beat out and have been seriously neglected and abused over the decades. It would have been infinitely cheaper in cost and would have saved untold hours, days, and weeks of unpleasant labor (madness!), but that's another story. 
I'll post some more questions that I have later (and I've got plenty) but a contractor is skim coating the room beginning tomorrow and I want to know how best to deal with the cabinet-to-wall gap as our two projects will overlap in this area so I'll be prepared. 

It probably was just filled with plaster at the time it was built ... or perhaps the walls were straight and plumb and the wood a snug fit.

I've attached a few pics: one showing the cabinets shortly after the restoration work started and the other three are details of the right edge of the broom closet face frame (farthest right side of the cabinets) where it abuts the wall.

Should I fill it with Durabond or Easysand? 
Fill the gap with foam caulk saver then fill it with caulk?
I'd rather not put some sort of trim molding over it as there's no other trim on anything here. 

Thanks a bunch for any suggestions.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Actually the gap was always suppose to be trimmed. Anything you might fill the gap with you probably will forever be caulking and touching up. The house moves as well as the cabinets and every time something moves a crack will appear. 

The trim doesn't have to be very big. I use trim there that is 1/4" thick and 5/8" wide. 

What is your intention for refinishing? Are you trying to make the cabinets to where they can be stained? That would be extremely difficult doing with the cabinets in the house.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Hi Steve,
Staining is out of the question and was never considered, the original finish was clearly paint, and it will be a hard enough row to hoe to get these stripped, restored, refitted, and repainted. 

The finish will likely be Benjamin Moore Waterbase Satin Impervo over Ben Moore acrylic Fresh Start Primer or possibly the Alkyd Fresh Start (Underbody) primer, however the Peel Away #1 stripper (Dummond) recommends an water base primer ... a recommendation I've ignored in the past). I've always used an alkyd primer successfully under the Impervo as I like how it sands. 

I'll consider your trim suggestion. I've lived here a long time and have seen dozens of coats of paint slathered with complete disregard by chump workers, and that's likely been the case for the many decades prior to my living here. The paint accumulation approaches stalactite form in some areas, and perhaps that's what has sealed the frame-to-wall connections. 

I'm not sure what sort of trim would look appropriate here?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I'd like to get as much input as I can and I have a lot more questions as much of this is new territory for me. It's a Herculean and epic undertaking ... and I likely should have my head examined. 

Anyone that would like to offer suggestions, pointers, comments, and/or criticisms please don't hesitate and your dialogue will be most welcome. The cabinets are in rough shape ... refurnishing cabinets is new to me and I'm not clear how to best approach some problematic areas, and what my options are.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

I lived for 12 years in an old Montgomery Wards Craftsman style kit house from 1917, and the kitchen cabinets were nearly identical to what you have there. The trim used on those junctures was a 3/4" wide quarter round. FYI.


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## Echo415 (Apr 3, 2018)

Look into a product called peel-away...it's not cheap but who can put a value on sanity?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Fire hazard!*

Gather up those rags and get them in the dumpster immediately!

Cover your containers.

Keep solvents away from open flames. 

Strippers are also flammable.

Rags used to clean up stripping are the worst fire hazard.

Be Safe!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> Hi Steve,
> Staining is out of the question and was never considered, the original finish was clearly paint, and it will be a hard enough row to hoe to get these stripped, restored, refitted, and repainted.
> 
> The finish will likely be Benjamin Moore Waterbase Satin Impervo over Ben Moore acrylic Fresh Start Primer or possibly the Alkyd Fresh Start (Underbody) primer, however the Peel Away #1 stripper (Dummond) recommends an water base primer ... a recommendation I've ignored in the past). I've always used an alkyd primer successfully under the Impervo as I like how it sands.
> ...


The crown molding really should have been wide enough to come down over the cabinet however you could make a very small trim to cover the gap across the top and miter it to come down the wall. When you build a cabinet that fits next to a wall it rarely fits flush against the wall. The walls are often not plumb or the plaster work is heavier in spots holding the cabinet away from the wall. Then if the cabinets are built outside the house and brought in you have to make them smaller if they fit between two walls in order to get them in. Therefore you have to plan on trimming it. I use trim like this I make to cover the gap between the cabinet and wall.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Echo415 said:


> Look into a product called peel-away...it's not cheap but who can put a value on sanity?


At this stage I've already been through approximately 15 gallons of Peel-Away #1 :surprise2:. 
I'm now renewing a friendship with Methylene Chloride.

I can soundly tell you that sanity doesn't inhere in either product.




woodnthings said:


> Gather up those rags and get them in the dumpster immediately!
> 
> Cover your containers.
> 
> ...


Those are time lapse photos at one of the cruxes of the battle!


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

mmwood_1 said:


> I lived for 12 years in an old Montgomery Wards Craftsman style kit house from 1917, and the kitchen cabinets were nearly identical to what you have there. The trim used on those junctures was a 3/4" wide quarter round. FYI.


mmwood_1,
Thanks for the data point.

These cabinets have an interesting - and extremely efficient - construction. The picture rail molding as used extensively throughout the apartment was also used as supports in fabricating the cabinets. The shelving supports and also the counter top supports are all made from sections of the molding.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think I would rather pet a rattlesnake than strip multiple coats of paint without methylene chloride. If they are shop made cabinets I think it would be worth the trouble to uninstall them and take them outdoors to remove the paint. A power washer is nearly critical when it comes to stripping paint. Regardless of the remover you use paint tends to come off one layer at a time.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> The crown molding really should have been wide enough to come down over the cabinet however you could make a very small trim to cover the gap across the top and miter it to come down the wall. When you build a cabinet that fits next to a wall it rarely fits flush against the wall. The walls are often not plumb or the plaster work is heavier in spots holding the cabinet away from the wall. Then if the cabinets are built outside the house and brought in you have to make them smaller if they fit between two walls in order to get them in. Therefore you have to plan on trimming it. I use trim like this I make to cover the gap between the cabinet and wall.


Steve,
There was crown molding it's just not shown in the photos. When I removed it the crown molding was badly warped, twisted ... and more. Maybe I can get a photo of it up later on. There's obviously been a ton of leaks from the sink (and later dishwasher) above over the decades which have profoundly distorted the crown molding to the point that it's unusable. Additionally, it was entombed in plaster and paint. A pic below shows some of the more or less intact crown molding from the other cabinet. 

I'm actually trying to match this molding or something very close, but I've had no luck. I'm in NYC so if anyone has any pointers or tips please post up. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think there was originally any trim molding on the face frame/cabinet sides. Another built in cabinet also doesn't have any trim molding.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> I think I would rather pet a rattlesnake than strip multiple coats of paint without methylene chloride. If they are shop made cabinets I think it would be worth the trouble to uninstall them and take them outdoors to remove the paint. A power washer is nearly critical when it comes to stripping paint. Regardless of the remover you use paint tends to come off one layer at a time.


In my experience Peel Away #1 removes _significantly _more layers of latex and oil paint than methylene chloride. But it can also damage the substrate as it can eat through the glues, especially on veneers and plys. Methylene Chloride as you state doesn't penetrate very deeply, so it's one layer at a time. When there are dozens of layers ... well ... it is what it is (gah!). I'm shifting to methylene chloride because the Peel Away #1 was damaging the cabinet doors. I'll post some pics of that as well. 
Before I started I ordered some test sizes of three other Peel Away stripping products, Peel Away #7, Smart Strip, and Smart Strip Pro but none of them were as effective as Peel Away #1. 

Of course if any of these stripping products worked quickly, efficiently, and safely, it wouldn't be such unpleasant and demonic work. 

The cabinets look like they were made on-site. Deinstalling them would only be an option if the goal was demolition. They wouldn't survive the operation. Again, it would have likely taken me a fraction of the time, expense, and energy to have demolished and rebuilt new cabinets, rather than stripping them.

There's no power washer here and it's all being done indoors. A solo effort and with limited resources (I don't own the place). I do think you've got the correct analogy regarding petting a rattlesnake! 

Here's a pic of a section of the (intact) crown molding...


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## andr0id (Jan 11, 2018)

Lovegasoline said:


> Here's a pic of a section of the (intact) crown molding...


A) Those are far nicer than anything you would have been able to replace them with at any reasonable cost.
B) It looks rough stripped and patched, but if you do it right, they're going to look fantastic when done.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

There's some time pressure added to this as well as I need to wrap it up and get the kitchen back in service. I need to research and choose a course of action regarding a strategy for resolving some problem areas, so any input will be greatly welcome. 

In order to get these cabinet door fitted/refitted I'll also likely need to improve the depth of my woodworking hand tool knowledge and use (the stars are in alignment here and that's actual something I'm looking forward to). On a side note, I'm shortly going to try completing an unfinished workbench project from 18 +/- years ago (the latter may be more challenging than the cabinets as my bench ideas and needs have altered in the intervening years) ...


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

*Here's a short list of questions regarding these cabinets* 
(I'll get some pics and specs up shortly):

*1) Hardware: *I can't seem to locate replacement hinge hardware of the same dimension and hole pattern as the originals. I don't want to put the old, corroded, stiff, unattractive hinges back on. I'm looking for either polished brass or brass with a slight patina, aged look. Other than this forum, is there another place recommended to inquire about hardware?
*2) Gaps:* There are areas where the face frame is separated from the case and exploratory soft blow hammering suggests that seating them together isn't in the cards. There's about 1/8" - 3/16" gap in a couple areas. I've started to Bondo one gap (the face frame has a bead detail where it meets the case). Is that a sound solution? I've used Bondo for some minor gaps on the face frame pieces and to fill in some other defects. 
*3) Face frame tuning:* how best to straighten up the inside of the face frames need some attention? There are fixed shelves that come right up to the face frame, so any fenced tool would need to clear the shelving edges.
*4) Door-to-door lip fitting :* if I need to adjust the rabbet where the cabinet doors meet and overlap one another what's the best tool for that and how best to approach it?
*5) Door-to-Frame tuning:* some gaps are too big how to remedy that? Glue a thin strip of wood on the interior of the face frame? 
*6) Door panel and veneer damage:* Peel Away #1 paint stripper (caustic) although needing at least two applications and being a royal PITA (needing multiple neutralizing stages of acidic water after removing the stripper) is still the best in my experience for getting through the dozens of layers of latex and oil paint. But it doesn't stop there and it attacks the cabinet door panels, which apparently have a veneer, and in some areas has split the surface veneer of the panel. Any suggestions how to repair this? I'm using Bondo (lol, I'm getting into the Bondo) to patch a lot of wood defects on this project and I'm thinking of hitting these areas with it as well.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Now that’s a major project. You are a glutton for punishment. 
We can already see the transformtion taking place from your work so far. 

If a door is too short for the framed opening I recommend adding a thin strip to the bottom of the door rather than adding a strip to the frame.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

*Hardware:*

Does anyone have any knowledge about sourcing replacement hinges? 
I'm looking for brass (solid or plated) hinges in either a polished, un-lacquered, or lightly antiqued finish. Unfortunately, I've had _no luck at all _in finding hinges with the same dimensions and hole pattern ... I didn't imagine it would be this difficult to find hinges that fit.

Suggestions?

(pics of hinges below and in the following post)


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Some additional pics of the cabinet door hinges:


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Gaps:
Face frame-to-case

The last pic is a side splash to the sink. The face frame has a bead on it. I've started to fill the gap with Bondo. Anyone have opinions on that?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Door Gaps:

(in the bottom pic of base cabinet doors, I've removed the floor threshold plate that fits under the doors. I believe a floor refinisher had bumped this cabinet with his sanding machine and knocked it out of square. I'm considering replacing the face frame).


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Some Cabinet door wood defects:

Most of these defects appear to be from the stripper attacking the panel's veneer. 

Next to last pic with the chunk of wood missing has been filled with Bondo.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

The original face frames are made of Poplar which is considered a paint grade wood by most. 
The side of the cabinet appears to be Birch. Is this plywood? If there is plywood in these cabinets they may not be as old as I first thought. One thing for sure, the previous paint and caulk jobs were about as sloppy as it gets. 

The hinge pictured looks to be very standard and I think you can find an exact replacement at a good hardware specialty store unless you want to totally change out to a more modern cabinet hinge. 

The crack between the side panel and the face frame is concerning because the FF is nailed to this side panel and must be secure. The doors swing from the FF and you don’t want the FF to continue loosening and the crack growing. I would clean the crack thoroughly and insert glue before sevuring down tightly with at least 3 finish screws on each side. Using a power drill, I think the finish screws will pull the crack together. I would drill a pilot hole slightly smaller than the screw first. The finish screws can be recessed and filled over. 
If 
You’re doing a jam up job in getting this kitchen back in shape. Looking good. 

Also, in a previous post I recommended attaching a strip to the bottom of a door to hide a crack. After looking at the design of the door, I change my mind because of endgrain on the two door side ends. Add the strip to the faceframe as you originally planned.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

So, I have a question for you....you do not own this place. You have taken on an overwhelming amount of work. WHY? Are you getting free rent for a year, or something like that? I'm having a hard time imagining why you are doing this to begin with.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> Door Gaps:
> 
> (in the bottom pic of base cabinet doors, I've removed the floor threshold plate that fits under the doors. I believe a floor refinisher had bumped this cabinet with his sanding machine and knocked it out of square. I'm considering replacing the face frame).


I see a couple of things in the bottom picture. 
1. There appears to be a slot for a pull-out cutting board
2. You say you are considering replacing the FF on this cabinet because it’s knocked out of square. The existing FF is not balanced. The stile on the left is wider than the right stile. If you replace it, you can balance it with matching stiles.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> *Here's a short list of questions regarding these cabinets*
> (I'll get some pics and specs up shortly):
> 
> *1) Hardware: *I can't seem to locate replacement hinge hardware of the same dimension and hole pattern as the originals. I don't want to put the old, corroded, stiff, unattractive hinges back on. I'm looking for either polished brass or brass with a slight patina, aged look. Other than this forum, is there another place recommended to inquire about hardware?
> ...


Bondo is probably the best option to cover and seal these veneer cracks.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

A few more pics of some defects and problem areas:

-Drawer from base cabinet
-Door frame shows a gap between molding pieces. Is it best to fill that with latex caulk after priming?
-The remaining images are of the base cabinet

The drawer is one of the two base cabinet drawers, thoroughly beat out. I have wood and Blumotion soft-close drawers slides and will make two new dovetailed drawers to replace the two originals. The two drawers were the only elements I was planing to replace with newly fabricated items. However, as the scope of work has slowly increased I've cut out the old base cabinet counter top (I used a multitool with bi-metal blade to cut through the nails) and will replace it with a butcher block counter top piece I've had laying around. I have to explore edge profiles and my router bits, it might be nice to retain the original profile. Otherwise, I'll just do something like a very light chamfer. I'm not sure how decorative profiles look in butcher block as opposed to solid wood. 
Of course, the base cabinet is also completely beat out. The drawer runners have long since shat the bed, and the drawers just get shoved in/out. ToolMan50 yes there are the remnants of what looks to be a cutting board slot, I can rebuild that and make a cutting board as well. The mortise and tenons are what's kept the cabinet standing all these years. And the stiles are unbalanced, I've not minded that as I'm used to it, I suppose I could balance them out however I'd lose the vertical continuity of the 2" wide left stile that runs to the ceiling. I suppose I'm going to go forward and replace the face frame, which will be a first for me. I'm a little hesitant because the whole enchilada seems in such questionable integrity ... it may be one of those things that once you touch something, it starts unraveling and whatever it's connected to starts to come undone, sort of like pulling a down feather that's sticking out of a jacket, when you pull it another comes out, and then another, and another ... a part of me doesn't want to start any invasive work (the drawers are different as they're independent items already detached).
In any case got some poplar today and will likely redo the face frame. I have to inquire but I think the Blumotion slides I have may need some blocking on the sides of the cabinet. I';m concerned the most about connecting the face frame to the case and also to the floor. Also, one nagging detail is the countertop's depth and height is made for circa 1920's life. If it taller and wider by an inch or two it would accommodate the lion's share of large microwaves; as it is I'm limited to mid-smaller sizes which typically are less featured and don't have the nicer design details of their slightly larger brethren. It would be nice to change the proportions slightly to accommodate that, but it would be difficult without further increasing the scope (lol!) and changing the cabinet doors above ... unless the counter top gets lowered more, which I think would be awkward.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

mmwood_1,
I'll get reimbursed for most of my supply costs but not my labor. The owner is meeting me from the other direction and doing some other repairs and renovation work that I requested, so when it's done the kitchen will look beautiful. No matter how bad I botch the cabinets I think they'll look significantly better. There will be detail in the kitchen's molding and profiles, light will slide along them like a laser beam defining shadow, edges, and curves. Paint will be satin smooth. The walls will be flat, sharp, the light will dance across them. Textures of wood floor and counter top, double deep farmer sink, some tiles, varieties of sheen on clear surfaces, gleaming hardware. I'll be here for several years more most likely. Beauty and a shared history. When I sit down and eat my eggs, I wont need a book, a laptop, or thoughts to distract me ... I'll have light dancing across surfaces to occupy my eyes ... a sense of balance, crispness, wholeness, integrity, stillness. The room will be a chamber of delight to just sit in. It's like classicism in a way: balance, proportion, an almost endless subtle refinement is possible, and each iteration, each smoothed surface, each trued line, each sharp edge, each curved profile deepens the harmonics in the mind. It's not the Parthenon, but it's what I've got around me and where I spend my time, where my life is lived. That's worth my energy. Ownership is overrated ... you 'own' things when the mind envelops them and merges with them in the present, in reality, in the moment. Otherwise, it's just the other 99% ...dreams, false hopes, pale fantasy, unreality, oppressive insatiable desire. You never really own anything anyway ... it's all impermanent, you lose _everything _that's dear to you, including all your loved ones ... and your life. All of this will be gone shortly enough. But in the interim, and for an instant, there's a rad kitchen! 

The thing is that if the cabinets are replaced, which was offered, they'd likely be nondescript Home Depot items of the lower budget variety or something from that species. I'm used to these cabinets, there's a degree of nostalgia, and although they are just run of the mill cabinetry for the time they were made, they do have some vintage character and define the style of the kitchen. If they are replaced the vibe of the kitchen will go with them.

As the work progresses, I see how easy it would have been to just demo and rebuild the cabinets ...much cheaper, easier, and likely more satisfying. But I knew that going into this, which made committing so challenging.

The thing about this sort of undertaking, is you forget just how insanely epic stripping is (well, you never forget ... that stuff stays etched in your psyche ... but you tell yourself you can do it. You declare you can climb Everest) ... if you remember all the suffering from stripping enterprises in the past, in all their hideousness, you'd _never_ do it again. The most important and necessary ingredient was the self deception that I might be able to knock this out in two or three weeks and a couple 5 gallon buckets of Peel Away. Without that I'd never have started.


PS: I'd once left a broken umbrella that was badly damaged and just about ready to be thrown away... on a porch in the rain. It was one of the cheapest umbrellas produced those ubiquitous $2 compact umbrellas sold in city bodegas and designed to fall apart after a dozen or so uses. A Buddhist monk left a note on it offering to to fix whoever's umbrella it was. I know the monk ... he was a mechanic in a former life. Still, it was mind boggling to read the note as the umbrella was so badly broken and was worth so little. I didn't take up his offer because - at the time - it seemed a futile endeavor.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

andr0id said:


> A) Those are far nicer than anything you would have been able to replace them with at any reasonable cost.
> B) It looks rough stripped and patched, but if you do it right, they're going to look fantastic when done.


A) yeah ... gah!
B) thanks for the encouragement!:smile2:


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> The original face frames are made of Poplar which is considered a paint grade wood by most.
> The side of the cabinet appears to be Birch. Is this plywood? If there is plywood in these cabinets they may not be as old as I first thought. One thing for sure, the previous paint and caulk jobs were about as sloppy as it gets.
> 
> The hinge pictured looks to be very standard and I think you can find an exact replacement at a good hardware specialty store unless you want to totally change out to a more modern cabinet hinge.
> ...


Thanks for your input, ideas, and encouragement. 

The cabinets aren't ply, they're solid even thought they look deceptively like plywood.

I think I'd have to remove the face frame to get it cleaned out/cleared of roadblocks and snugged down. I've putty knifed up inside and soft-blow hammered it, but there's still a little gap. I'm hesitant to start 'pulling down feathers out' and if I do that I might as well rebuild the cabinet (it's just a face frame, left side, crown molding, three shelves, and some picture rail molding to support the shelf ends) but I want to just go quick and dirty on it. Maybe screw it down and Bondo it?

_Unfortunately, the hinges do not seem to be standard. I've looked sporadically for many months and have not been able to find a single brass hinge with those dimensions and hole patterns._ This is a big problem. Anyone have any idea how to go about locating some brass hinges that will fit?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Some butcher block I had lying around will be used for a new counter top.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think you are getting the paint stripped better than it really needs to be. There was just too many coats of the old paint on there to do a good paint job over the top. You just need to get most of it off to be able to paint over it. You will need to provide good ventilation and wear a chemical respirator when sanding the cabinets. It's certainly to have lead in the paint. Lead was once used as a pigment in white paint. 

Most of the voids and defects you could fill with a fiberglass filler. Where the casing is suppose to be nailed to the jamb you might take a piece of 2x4 and a heavy hammer and see if you can close the gap. Then it could be caulked. 

Where the drawer, I think you could repair that one instead of building a new box. Since the bottom is thick and nailed to the underneath side you could remove it altogether. Then put some blocking around the inside of the box at the bottom and insert a piece of 1/4" plywood. Then because of the overall width of the box is too wide for side mount slides you could put undermount slides. I believe the thickness of the drawer bottom would give you enough clearance and if not it would be pretty close so you might be able to enlarge the opening a little to make it work. 

The end of the door where it has wood rotted out I would try to chisel out as much of the rotted wood away as you can and cut a piece of solid wood to glue in there. 

Some of the doors no longer fit the openings right. You might cut them where they are aliened with the openings again. The larger gap won't matter as much as being true to the opening.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I just now read through the thread. WOW! What an undertaking. I don't really understand all the details of your job and the owners part but...

If it were mine to do, I would chunk all of the doors and drawers and make new ones. Actually, I would buy paint grade doors from someone and have them delivered to the job site. Shaker style doors with 1/2 inch overlay and Blum soft close hinges would make that kitchen look a whole lot better. Your job will go faster and you can save your skill making for another day!

I did an overhaul just like I suggested for a friend, but of course he paid for everything. Twenty three doors and drawers. They were really happy with the end product. And thankfully, he had someone paint the cabinets.

Good luck.
Mike


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Hmmm...I just noticed something in your pictures. The bottom cabinet (see your picture posted below) is a good candidate for an update. Modify it so it will contain two wide and deep drawers for pots and pan storage. You can thank me later! Or cuss me. :grin:

See the images I have posted. That is exactly what the homeowner wanted. I modified the cabinet and built new drawers. That is the two drawers next to my wife's knee in the picture.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> The cabinets aren't ply, they're solid even thought they look deceptively like plywood.
> 
> Cabinets were most likely made on-site (pretty much how they did it back then) and made before the availability of plywood.
> 
> I think I'd have to remove the face frame to get it cleaned out/cleared of roadblocks and snugged down. I've putty knifed up inside and soft-blow hammered it, but there's still a little gap. I'm hesitant to start 'pulling down feathers out' and if I do that I might as well rebuild the cabinet (it's just a face frame, left side, crown molding, three shelves, and some picture rail molding to support the shelf ends) but I want to just go quick and dirty on it. Maybe screw it down and Bondo it?


I would use screws to pull the frame to the sides and fill the screw holes.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

What about making changes to the blue topped cabinet to accommodate a new large microwave?
It’s got an outlet.


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

FWIW, I think by the time you count the time and materials to strip and refinish, it would be cheaper to replace them. I sold cabinetry, factory and custom. We had a line of a flat panel cabinets that were hard to touch for price and quality. Sold several sets for rental or starter housing. Just remembered- that is a salvage place about 30 miles north. They buy KD cabinets from China. They assemble them or you can DIY. Lowe's has unfinished cabinets, too. Good luck.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm not completely delusional ... my goal in the stripping was to essentially rid the cabinetry of it's ghetto vibe ... and anything more than that is simply icing on the cake. I will not have _immaculate_ cabinetry but it'll be a large step up from what it was ... and it's all determine by how much more energy I want to put into it. If the cabinetry is a type of very modest (at best) jewel, their setting is also rising to the occasion ... so the entire space will register as a vast improvement. 

Four skilled extra bodies skimming the walls today and tuning up the space produces a feeling like seeing light at the end of the tunnel (!)... if only they'd come to my rescue and take over the stripping operations :wink:


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Pineknot_86 said:


> FWIW, I think by the time you count the time and materials to strip and refinish, it would be cheaper to replace them. I sold cabinetry, factory and custom. We had a line of a flat panel cabinets that were hard to touch for price and quality. Sold several sets for rental or starter housing. Just remembered- that is a salvage place about 30 miles north. They buy KD cabinets from China. They assemble them or you can DIY. Lowe's has unfinished cabinets, too. Good luck.





MT Stringer said:


> I just now read through the thread. WOW! What an undertaking. I don't really understand all the details of your job and the owners part but...
> 
> If it were mine to do, I would chunk all of the doors and drawers and make new ones. Actually, I would buy paint grade doors from someone and have them delivered to the job site. Shaker style doors with 1/2 inch overlay and Blum soft close hinges would make that kitchen look a whole lot better. Your job will go faster and you can save your skill making for another day!


Great post Mike and thanks for images and ideas. 


As I wrote in my initial posts I knew going into this it would be cheaper, take much less time _and_ energy, be magnitudes more pleasant, and most likely look better to just make new cabinets ... or conversely to keep the framing and to make new doors. It was a tough call to commit to move forward and strip them.

I've not done extensive cabinetry and never kitchen cabinets. This was a volunteer effort on my part and I wasn't sure how much the owner was willing to contribute, so a stripping operation although difficult, was realizable ... and without permission. Furthermore, access to fabricate full cabinetry may have been extremely difficult, or impossible, to do at present. 
As I've gotten to know these cabinets intimately, I see just how minimal materially the built-in frame and cabinets are. There's very little to them. My thinking was that a few years down the road, for just a few hundred dollars in wood plus some hardware, I could rebuild these cabinets from scratch should I decide to.
Replacement drawers that I build now will be done with the thought of making them incorporable for any future refurbishment.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> I think you are getting the paint stripped better than it really needs to be. There was just too many coats of the old paint on there to do a good paint job over the top. You just need to get most of it off to be able to paint over it. You will need to provide good ventilation and wear a chemical respirator when sanding the cabinets. It's certainly to have lead in the paint. Lead was once used as a pigment in white paint.
> 
> Most of the voids and defects you could fill with a fiberglass filler. Where the casing is suppose to be nailed to the jamb you might take a piece of 2x4 and a heavy hammer and see if you can close the gap. Then it could be caulked.
> 
> ...



There are 12 cabinet doors (24 sides) and all but about 6 side sides have been stripped back. All the frames and cases have been stripped. Leaving some of the primer or paint on them is fine as after the scraping and sanding it wont telegraph through a new paint job. The next step is a deeper stripping of the profile details of rails ands stiles, which will just take some patience and is the last stripping operation left. Then some filling and patching; then tuning the refitting. Yeah, I've been using Bondo primarily and a touch of Ready Patch. (Btw, instead of stripping one technique I used a few years ago on some cruddy baseboards in a hallway was to skim coat them with Ready Patch and then sand the Ready Patch flush ... because they are at floor level and seen from 5'-6' away, they look perfect.) 

The baseboards are all stripped. The sheet metal sink cabinet has been stripped except for some a few touch up spots ... and it's doors. For the latter I was planning to just grind them off and make two new doors from wood ... however, I think I'm going to revert to my 1st option which was to strip them and try filling/smoothing the dents with Bondo (if that doesn't go well I'll make new ones and get new hinges). It's a good area to practice my nascent body-filling skills and I can screw up without serious consequence. An educational opportunity. 

The drawers are shot. I only posted the one pic but they are missing several tails from the dovetails (one joint is missing nearly _all_ the tails). I've recently got some new soft maple for the drawers and it has been several years since I've cut dovetails or done any quality hand tool work ... so I'm actually looking _forward _to that ... it'll be *fun* as opposed to the labors of stripping. As mentioned, I've already sourced some extremely nice Blumotion soft-close slides for the two drawers. All of this is a sort of warm-up to get re-familiarized with my machinery and hand tools after a long sabbatical, to tune them up, plus make the acquaintance of some new tools (ex. I recently got a 100 year old Stanley #80 scraper and totally adore it), learn their use, improve my skillset, and set the stage for some furniture design and fabrication. 

Uniformity of door-to-frame gaps are a concern, I'll tackle that at there tuning/fitting phase. 

I've got exceptional respiration equipment (and have done damage there in the past), including acid gas canisters for the respirator, a supplied air system, plus a serious exhaust fan. This time around I got a correct pair of PVA gloves for dealing with the methylene chloride, instead of pickling & dissolving my hands in the inadequate PVC or rubber gloves. 

I also have a seriously outfitted spray setup with top quality guns (but will likely brush on the cabinet finish) except for the metal sink. There's also a dumb waiter and other period details that have been stripped and will be sprayed. It's nice to keep a lot of the kitchen's stuff from the original era, for example I love the look of the cabinet latches (I'll need to source new brass ones) which would be lost with overlay doors. 

Overall, it's getting knocked out.

The remaining obstacles are sourcing brass hinges (no luck at all on that and it's seeming hopeless) ... and finding a suitable crown molding.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

A labor of love if there ever was one. Good for you. When I was a renter, I always improved the place I lived because I LIVED there and I wanted a nice place to live. I totally get that. After having been booted out too many times (once, because the owner decided to move in after 17 years as a rental, and didn't even offer to reimburse me for the work I'd done on the place) I now rent from the bank because as long as I make my monthlies, they won't boot me out. And I still improve my space, little by little.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Mike, I'd thought about making large drawers for the base cabinet previously for both function and due to the out of square frame/doors. But if I did that I'd want to source a router bit with the same profile as the doors so everything would match. The other option is scavenging some doors from other apartments if/when they get renovated and cutting off the profiles to use as decorative molding. 

Toolman50,
The blue cabinet top is where my microwave now resides (I have a butcher block counter top for it); I'm not sure how to increase the height to accommodate a larger microwave. Increasing the depth of the cabinet a couple inches would be easy. ... however I'd have to drop the countertop lower which would probably look odd against the sink and which would also make accessing the two flatware drawers more of a stoop. Conversely, I'd have to attack the horizontal face frame member above it, redo that cabinet's bottom shelf, and alter the length of the upper cabinet doors ...


??


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Lovegasoline said:


> Mike, I'd thought about making large drawers for the base cabinet previously for both function and due to the out of square frame/doors. But if I did that I'd want to source a router bit with the same profile as the doors so everything would match. The other option is scavenging some doors from other apartments if/when they get renovated and cutting off the profiles to use as decorative molding.


When I mentioned the 1/2 inch overlay doors, I had in mind they would help reduce the out-of-square openings. The Blum hinges (and other brands as well) have three adjustments so the door can be relocated slightly to help with alignment. And that would solve your obsolete hinge search. :smile2:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> There are 12 cabinet doors (24 sides) and all but about 6 side sides have been stripped back. All the frames and cases have been stripped. Leaving some of the primer or paint on them is fine as after the scraping and sanding it wont telegraph through a new paint job. The next step is a deeper stripping of the profile details of rails ands stiles, which will just take some patience and is the last stripping operation left. Then some filling and patching; then tuning the refitting. Yeah, I've been using Bondo primarily and a touch of Ready Patch. (Btw, instead of stripping one technique I used a few years ago on some cruddy baseboards in a hallway was to skim coat them with Ready Patch and then sand the Ready Patch flush ... because they are at floor level and seen from 5'-6' away, they look perfect.)
> 
> The baseboards are all stripped. The sheet metal sink cabinet has been stripped except for some a few touch up spots ... and it's doors. For the latter I was planning to just grind them off and make two new doors from wood ... however, I think I'm going to revert to my 1st option which was to strip them and try filling/smoothing the dents with Bondo (if that doesn't go well I'll make new ones and get new hinges). It's a good area to practice my nascent body-filling skills and I can screw up without serious consequence. An educational opportunity.
> 
> ...


The loose pieces like the doors you might look for a furniture refinisher in your area. A furniture refinisher would likely have a flow over stripping system which would be a lot easier to strip paint. 

A flow over system is a 4'x8' tank with short sides which you use a more liquid remover. The tank has a drain in one corner which drains into a bucket. From the bucket a the stripper is pumped through a hose up to a scrub brush. With this you can easily keep the paint wet with stripper and does a very thorough job and isn't near as labor intensive.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

It’s hard sometimes to count paint layers when white is painted over white, but for the record, how many paint layers would you guess were on those cabinets?
I’m guessing you’re in a multi-level apartment and over the years, those cabinets were subjected to water from above. 
Also I think one of the past tenants had access to free caulk. Ha.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

My guess would be around 25-50?

There's a cream color at the base (these lower start are no doubt lead), there's a deeper beige, there's a dark green (I'm trying to imagine the kitchen in dark green ...a fashionable color in the late 20s/early 30s?), there's a blue, in areas there's a vermillion, there's bone, there's white. Yesterday while workers were skim coating the back wall inside the cabinets - where some former tenant had applied what duct tape to seal the seams between the shelving and the walls/case sides, you can for example see an early green layer. I excavated the hardware at an earlier date. 

Yes, there's been extensive leaks from both the sink and also a dishwasher from the apartment above. For a period there were regular leaks and the fix was usually plaster and paint to cover it up, until the water damage reappeared, then rinse/repeat, until things worsened and it had to be 'addressed'.
For many years this was rented near a college to students so lots of turnover, abuse, neglect, and frequent painting as the cure for all problems. 


Steve Neul:
"The loose pieces like the doors you might look for a furniture refinisher in your area. A furniture refinisher would likely have a flow over stripping system which would be a lot easier to strip paint. 

A flow over system is a 4'x8' tank with short sides which you use a more liquid remover. The tank has a drain in one corner which drains into a bucket. From the bucket a the stripper is pumped through a hose up to a scrub brush. With this you can easily keep the paint wet with stripper and does a very thorough job and isn't near as labor intensive."

That's like the most perfect dream, or the cruelest fantasy.
Trust me, if I could afford to hire someone (whether to scrape, remove sludge, dip, sand, or any other voodoo) I wouldn't have spent even a _single minute_ doing the stripping. Just the prep work and the periodic clean up is extensive, not to mention the stripping itself. 
I spoke with one of the guys in here now doing the skim coating. He showed me a pic of a recent job he was sent on, stripping a single window and a little paneling below and bordering the sides. He said it took him two weeks.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

MT Stringer said:


> When I mentioned the 1/2 inch overlay doors, I had in mind they would help reduce the out-of-square openings. The Blum hinges (and other brands as well) have three adjustments so the door can be relocated slightly to help with alignment. And that would solve your obsolete hinge search. :smile2:


It's a good option. If you read through my initial posts, that was option #2 ... to make new overlay doors.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Another hard part is coming up ... deciding on the kitchen colors.

That darkish green paint deep underneath the other layers (going back to the 1930s?) had always repulsed me... it wasn't easy imaging a darkish green kitchen. 
However, I painted the blue one countertop years back and had also put a few robbins egg blue accents around.

The green is starting to grow on me ... I'm understanding it better.

Here's some green kitchens:
https://www.remodelista.com/posts/trend-alert-10-favorite-dark-green-kitchens/

My original idea was to just go with whites. The room gets good natural light ... I thought it would be fascinating to use a range of whites and slightly off whites, along with different sheens (gloss through matte) explored on the different surfaces: walls, ceiling, door & window trim, door, metal sink cabinet, porcelain farmer sink, backsplash tile, cabinets, light fixtures, etc. ... plus the metallic cabinet hardware and the effects of lighting both natural and artificial ... to work together to produce subtle temperature and tonal shifts in the whites so that it becomes fuller, richer, and deeper. There's a newish oak floor in the kitchen. The light fixtures are original and they are a sort of off-white/putty color. 

I still like that idea but the green has triggered something. I'm starting to lean towards keeping that range of whites, but extending it to include some subtle earth tones accents and maybe set the cabinetry off by an extremely light terra verte green but desaturated and maybe warmed up a bit and/or with a subtle mint infusion ... or maybe a greyed robbin's egg blue. 

When this is all done and if I an find the time to complete my unfinished workbench, the next project will be to build a kitchen table. I've never built a table and I've not used oak. For the past few months the idea of a quarter sawn oak with prominent ray flecks light and cool in tone with a flat sheen has been gripping me ... that or some sort of very dark grey or black oak table in a flat finish could anchor the space. 

I think the kitchen would work in whites/creams/subtle earth tones-light greenish-greys/ + wood + brass. Deciding and committing on this sort of color thing is always hard for me, lol.


Top pic is of my kitchen's light fixture. 
2nd pic: I'm starting to like this sort of light green cabinet color.
3rd pic: looks to be the same space as pic #2, but some weird color correction/lighting issue going on with the lower cabinets, which makes them appear slightly cooler and more grey in color ... I actually like the shift between warm and cool. Maybe the sink cabinet could be a light tone slightly cool grey. My floor is a warmer tone wood which would provide a warm balance to space. ( I actually like the cooler subdued wood tones).
4th is a table with the black sort of finish which features the grain.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

MT Stringer said:


> Hmmm...I just noticed something in your pictures. The bottom cabinet (see your picture posted below) is a good candidate for an update. Modify it so it will contain two wide and deep drawers for pots and pan storage. You can thank me later! Or cuss me. :grin:
> 
> See the images I have posted. That is exactly what the homeowner wanted. I modified the cabinet and built new drawers. That is the two drawers next to my wife's knee in the picture.


I'm reviewing this option again ... the base cabinet face frame's left stile is about 2-7/8" wide and the right is about 1-3/8" wide ... not sure how that would look with an overlay drawer, the right stile would be mighty narrow. Also, inside the cabinet on the right, the broom closet's stile projects travels through and projects about an inch into the space that the drawer would need to travel. 
On the other hand drawers would make better use of the space. Earlier this year I sanded and refinished the floor inside the cabinet, painted the shelf, and reorganized the cabinet ... it's not easy accessing stuff packed in the back of the shelf.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Some other stuff:

Any NYC'ers out there who might have a tip on sourcing some suitable crown molding? I need about 15 ft or so.

I also need to figure out what paint product to spray the sheet metal sink cabinet with. Equipment isn't an issue as I have ample air (cfm/psi) and excellent guns so should be able to shoot any product. I've never sprayed metal before I'm a complete n00b, so any tips on prep regimen, primer, top coat (and clear??) feel free to share your suggestions. They'll be some Bondo touch up to the cabinet.

And I still not located a single hinge that's the same dimensions as the originals. Gulp. :sad2:
Anu suggestions for sourcing hinges? Or is anyone aware of on online forum where hinge hardware stuff like this is discussed with more activity?

(and to before I get too excited ... I still have plenty of stripping left to do :wink


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have sprayed a lot of metal*

It's easier than wood because the surface is very smooth and a coat of primer is all you need to prep it. After it dries completely, sand it with 320 wet dry to eliminate pips on the surface. wipe it down with a tack cloth and now you are ready to spray. I use TSC enamel with hardener, mostly in John Deere green or gloss black BUT you can use the Majic paint in a spray can. Spray on paints are thinner, so you have to take caution that it will not run on horizontal surfaces. :smile2:


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I also have a inquiry on mounting the BLUMOTION Tandem Plus slides in the base cabinet. The question is in a separate thread:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f17/...tandem-plus-drawer-slides-200538/#post1949970


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> The blue cabinet top is where my microwave now resides (I have a butcher block counter top for it); I'm not sure how to increase the height to accommodate a larger microwave. Increasing the depth of the cabinet a couple inches would be easy. ... however I'd have to drop the countertop lower which would probably look odd against the sink and which would also make accessing the two flatware drawers more of a stoop. Conversely, I'd have to attack the horizontal face frame member above it, redo that cabinet's bottom shelf, and alter the length of the upper cabinet doors ...


As you know many new microwaves are now installed above the cook-top. 
Maybe you can see a way to install the microwave high rather than lower. 
Another consideration; if the MW unit is set on the cabinet it’s considered a portable appliance. But if it’s installed into the cabinet, it will most likely be considered a permanent appliance. I know you will want to take the MW with you if you paid for it.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> I'm reviewing this option again ... the base cabinet face frame's left stile is about 2-7/8" wide and the right is about 1-3/8" wide ... not sure how that would look with an overlay drawer, the right stile would be mighty narrow. Also, inside the cabinet on the right, the broom closet's stile projects travels through and projects about an inch into the space that the drawer would need to travel.
> On the other hand drawers would make better use of the space. Earlier this year I sanded and refinished the floor inside the cabinet, painted the shelf, and reorganized the cabinet ... it's not easy accessing stuff packed in the back of the shelf.


If you’re custom making a drawer, it doesn’t have to be a standard drawer but can be made to work in the space available. If it’s a overlay drawer front for instance, it can overlay 1/2” on one side and a full 1” on the other side to give you the look you want with the drawer closed. 
Also if one stile is wider than the other, you can add dimension to the existing stile. If you add add 1 1/2” width to the 1 3/8” side, you get a matching 2 7/8”. A good tight glue job will hide the glue line. 
The drawer can be designed and installed in such a way to pass the broom closet side.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> It's easier than wood because the surface is very smooth and a coat of primer is all you need to prep it. After it dries completely, sand it with 320 wet dry to eliminate pips on the surface. wipe it down with a tack cloth and now you are ready to spray. I use TSC enamel with hardener, mostly in John Deere green or gloss black BUT you can use the Majic paint in a spray can. Spray on paints are thinner, so you have to take caution that it will not run on horizontal surfaces. :smile2:


woodnthings,
Thanks for the tips.
If the cabinet has some either a.) corrosion, or b.) mild rust, what's the best way to handle that?
It's probably best to find a local supplier and who can do a color match (or has lots of colors sort of like an auto place, or house paint store?). I forgot to mention I'd like to get a durable product that's somewhat easy easy to spot touch-up down the road, if it's reasonable to do so (I realize that durability and ease of touch up are usually mutually exclusive). I'd like to steer clear of the stuff on the extreme toxic end of the spectrum like certain automobile paint formulations (one of my worst accidents was spraying a catalyzed lacquer when the correct respirator cartridges was accidentally switched).


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> As you know many new microwaves are now installed above the cook-top.
> Maybe you can see a way to install the microwave high rather than lower.
> Another consideration; if the MW unit is set on the cabinet it’s considered a portable appliance. But if it’s installed into the cabinet, it will most likely be considered a permanent appliance. I know you will want to take the MW with you if you paid for it.



I don't have space for an upper mount. The stove hood will prevent that and there's no other available under cabinet space. (btw, I got my microwave on craigslist used so not a big deal either way).




Toolman50 said:


> If you’re custom making a drawer, it doesn’t have to be a standard drawer but can be made to work in the space available. If it’s a overlay drawer front for instance, it can overlay 1/2” on one side and a full 1” on the other side to give you the look you want with the drawer closed.
> Also if one stile is wider than the other, you can add dimension to the existing stile. If you add add 1 1/2” width to the 1 3/8” side, you get a matching 2 7/8”. A good tight glue job will hide the glue line.
> The drawer can be designed and installed in such a way to pass the broom closet side.


Keep the ideas coming, it's making me think harder about many details!

Actually the narrow right stile on the base cabinet makes sense, I can see why the cabinet maker did that ... it retains the continuity of vertical boundaries and optical balance of stiles left-to-right when one stands back and the eye takes in the totality of the cabinetry, including the main cabinets on the rear plane behind the base cabinet.
One other alteration that's crossed my mind is to convert the two flatware drawers in the base cabinet (presently 13" wide each) into a single wide drawer as the available space there is 28" wide... (maybe with two drawer pulls to retain the look ...if the BLUMOTION Tandem Plus drawers slides don't experience problematic racking when opened with a pull from just one side of a drawer?). 
I could use more flatware drawer space and one wide drawer would allow me to allocate the space for more flatware and the remaining area for utensils (I have another utensil drawer in an IKEA cabinet). With one wide drawer it might also be possible to have a 12" +/- wide inset tray, laterally sliding, on wood runners or slides, inserted in the upper half of the drawer. This could hold additional flatware or small utensils.
However the drawer opening height is only 5-1/2". I need to review the measurements, but I think with the BLUMOTION Tandem Plus side mount slides and a 3/8" drawer bottom, I'll have 3-13/16" max interior _usable_ drawer height. That's not too much especially for the addition of a sliding tray. However, I could easily increase the drawer height by lowering the rail under the drawers maybe by 1" or 1.5" (and trimming the lower doors if I retain the doors vs. lower drawers) . I'm not sure if 5"+/- is enough workable height to include a sliding tray?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Where the casing is suppose to be nailed to the jamb you might take a piece of 2x4 and a heavy hammer and see if you can close the gap. Then it could be caulked.


Over the years some of my tools have died. One was a beloved Bessey 'Big Orange' assembly mallet, a huge, heavy, but soft polyurethane headed mallet with a yellow fiberglass shaft (I think another company manufactured them for Bessey) which allows you to WAIL on wood as hard as you possibly can without leaving any marks. One day when I opened my tool chest the head was in two pieces, some sort of polymer failure over time. For years I searched for a replacement but could never find one ... until recently. I got a chance to use it on the door and window jams as you suggested. I've never had occasion to do work on door or window jambs or to see it being done, so oddly the construction was always a mystery to me. Duh? Anyway it cam together a little better in spot (plus venting a bunch of dirt). Is latex caulk the bet to use to fill the gap? And is it best to do that after priming, or now on bare wood? 




Steve Neul said:


> Some of the doors no longer fit the openings right. You might cut them where they are aliened with the openings again. The larger gap won't matter as much as being true to the opening.


Steve are you saying that alignment of door to frame (squared up) is the most critical, and even gaps top/bottom/left/right on each door, and gap width from door to door, is less critical in the finished installation, optically?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> It’s hard sometimes to count paint layers when white is painted over white, but for the record, how many paint layers would you guess were on those cabinets?
> I’m guessing you’re in a multi-level apartment and over the years, those cabinets were subjected to water from above.
> Also I think one of the past tenants had access to free caulk. Ha.


I wrote 25-50, but that's likely being_ irrationally _conservative. Could be 50-100, or more?
I found some pics from just _one day _several years ago showing the aftermath of a typical leak and the resultant paint job. Last pic is of a simultaneous leak on an adjacent kitchen wall, not in the cabinets. This would be repeated every few weeks. Multiply this by 90 years of abuse in a rental apt. and you'll get an idea ... there's a* ton* of paint on these door. 
Sorry for the poor focus.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> Over the years some of my tools have died. One was a beloved Bessey 'Big Orange' assembly mallet, a huge, heavy, but soft polyurethane headed mallet with a yellow fiberglass shaft (I think another company manufactured them for Bessey) which allows you to WAIL on wood as hard as you possibly can without leaving any marks. One day when I opened my tool chest the head was in two pieces, some sort of polymer failure over time. For years I searched for a replacement but could never find one ... until recently. I got a chance to use it on the door and window jams as you suggested. I've never had occasion to do work on door or window jambs or to see it being done, so oddly the construction was always a mystery to me. Duh? Anyway it cam together a little better in spot (plus venting a bunch of dirt). Is latex caulk the bet to use to fill the gap? And is it best to do that after priming, or now on bare wood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot depends on the size of the gap between the doors. If it's a 1/4" or more I would probably joint the edge of the door and apply a strip of wood to fill in the gap. Really what I was talking about is how the doors fit the cabinet. This will catch the eye of everyone that it's not like it should be. In this picture the door on the right is pretty straight with the rail above it and the door on the left may be touching the rail. I would trim it to where the gap was uniform all the way across both doors.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Right, I see your point. Yeah, after I get everything stripped and get some replacement hinges, I'll do the door fitting. 
I anticipate I'll need to add some strips to fill too any gaps that are too large. Is there an issue doing this at the top and bottom of the doors (i.e. issues of grain orientation and wood movement0 vs. the face frames?
I've added some rather large (a couple inches) spacer blocks to some French doors here a few years ago and they're seamless without ever having caused any problems.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm ready to complete the rebuilding of the base cabinet. 

I decided to deepen the dimension of the cabinet by about 3-3/4" to create a little more counter space and also to possibly accommodate a deeper microwave oven on the counter top. To do this I removed the right cabinet side extension which attaches to the broom closet's face frame and replaced it with 3/4" furniture grade 5 ply with maple veneered faces. A 3-3/4" wide piece will make an extension on the left cabinet side; I'll attach them with biscuits to the solid wood 7/8" thick original cabinets. I'll need to sell my 15" Blumotion Tandem slides and get longer 18" slides; the slightly larger flatware drawers will be useful. 

One concern I have is the left cabinet side is next to the sink ... it actually comprises a side splash for the sink a little higher up. So there's a possibility of water running down the outside of the cabinet and now it will have a small (3-3/4" wide) piece of plywood instead of solid wood, and potential for water damage where it meets the floor. Maybe I can seal it well with polyurethane. 

I've made a new poplar face frame with M&T joints (my M&T skills are crazy rust and while rushing lie mad I made a couple tenons too thin, I'll need to make some shims so to tighten the joint). I'll cut out a section on the top rail to accommodate a cutting board like the original had, and make a couple runners for the cutting board, and also incorporate them into supports for the butcher block counter top, which I have but need to dimension to fit. I'll look into finding a router bit profile to match the old counter top (see 2nd & 3rd pics....I'm not sure how butcher block looks with an edge profile?).

One significant concern is that the bottom rail of the cabinet above the base cabinet is not level (see last 2 pics). The counter top holds my mircowave oven which is a tight fit with only about 1/2" - 3/4' clearance from that bottom rail. If I install the counter top level the gap will not be parallel and will be unsightly. Hum. Any solutions to this?

The original cabinet profiles are somewhat plain, however the base cabinet had a bead at the rear of the face frame, a nice touch and a small nod to decoration. I'd love to be able to put a bead on my face frame (it would be cool to make a scratch stock beading tool and do it by hand) but the case sides my frame will mate with are now plywood, so a bead would reveal the ply edge. Oh well.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't see a problem with what you have built. What little water you might get on the cabinet polyurethane or would protect it. For the most part water exposure to cabinets is a problem for nitrocellulose lacquer and that is usually limited to the face and doors in front of the sink. 

As far as design I think I would have either made a tight seam with the countertop or made the top above or below the countertop height.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

The issue of problems attributable to leaks is frankly is in past and attributable to negligent management. 
Still plywood resting directly on the floor near a water source is something new to me. 




Steve Neul said:


> As far as design I think I would have either made a tight seam with the countertop or made the top above or below the countertop height.


Steve, I'm unclear what design aspect it is that you're referring to in your quoted comment above ... can you please expand on that? Thanks a bunch.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> The issue of problems attributable to leaks is frankly is in past and attributable to negligent management.
> Still plywood resting directly on the floor near a water source is something new to me.
> 
> 
> ...


Usually when I build base cabinets I will put nylon tacks on the bottom of the sides. This raises the cabinets up 1/4" off the floor so in the event there is ever any amount of water standing on the floor the cabinets are not sitting in water. 

As far as what I said about the design with the top, where you have the left end of the wooden top rounded over I would have coped the end to fit the counter top if I wanted to make the height level with the counter. Making a seam like that is just awkward anyway using two different materials. It might have been simpler to make the wooden top a little elevated and caulked the seam where it butted into the counter. This would have also helped with the issue of water. Another option would have been to make the top height to where it just slid under the countertop.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

> As far as what I said about the design with the top, where you have the left end of the wooden top rounded over I would have coped the end to fit the counter top if I wanted to make the height level with the counter. Making a seam like that is just awkward anyway using two different materials. It might have been simpler to make the wooden top a little elevated and caulked the seam where it butted into the counter. This would have also helped with the issue of water. Another option would have been to make the top height to where it just slid under the countertop.


I'm still confused ... the left end of what wooden top? There's only one counter/top; it doesn't connect with or mate to another horizontal surface. I'm not clear what edge you're referring to coping?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I’m ready to complete the base cabinet. It’s presenting a clamping/glue-up challenge so if anyone has a suggestion please share it.

The base cabinet is a PITA as there’s no reference surface that’s square, level, or plumb: sink, cabinets above, everything is skewed so I’ve struggled to strike a balance between practicality and appearance. 

As explained w/photo in post #61 above, I’ve made a new face frame and extensions to the case sides to deepen the cabinet. The face frame is square and because the cabinet is not square, level, or plumb I’m trying to fudge it a little, bit am still getting some misalignment on the right case side/right faceframe stile connection. I won’t be able to trim or scribe the face frame to the case side on the right due to the already narrow right stile. Not sure how to conceal this defect.

Back to the clamping challenge:
I’ve used #20 biscuits for the edge joint on the case side extensions: on the left is an edge joint between 3/4” plywood and 1” poplar. Because of how close the sink cabinet is to the case side I can’t access the outside of the cabinet. Is there a good way to clamp this joint during glue up? Although I’ve hardly ever done any pocket hole stuff, I may have a little wood jig somewhere or can make one to shoot in a few pocket hole screws on the edge joint? 
Or, drill 3 or 4 pilot holes on the original case side, several inches apart, parallel to - and a few inches back from - the joint, and shoot some long screws through the side of the existing case so half the screw length stands proud of the cabinet on either side, then use those as ‘posts’ for bar clamps to grab and pull the edge joint tight. 

Any suggestions? 

Oh yeah, regarding the face frame, best way to attach it to the case? Nail gun? Biscuits?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Not sure I understand your clamping issue. If you can get to the back side of the faceframe perhaps you could use something like the kreg screws to pull the joint together.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

The pic in post #61 shows the area.

Behind the left stile of the base cabinet face frame is the cabinet case side. I'm adding a 3-3/4" wide piece of 3/4" ply to the cabinet case side to make the cabinet deeper (so I can fit a deeper microwave oven on the countertop); essentially it's making a larger panel for the case side. Same thing on the right hand case side but the extension is longer and I have access for clamping). 
The 3-3/4" wide strip of plywood is edge joined to the original cabinet side (latter made of 1" poplar) and I've cut #20 biscuit slots on both edges (plywood strip and original cabinet case). But there's nothing to attach a clamp to to pull them together during glue up. Further, access on the outside of the cabinet is restricted due to the sink cabinet being just a couple inches away on the outside. If this were a cabinet on a bench I could place a bar clamp to reach both outer extremes of the case sides and tighten it up, no problem. 
But the cabinet in situ doesn't provide that option. Clamping forces will need to be in-line so the glued up panel is planar. For example, if I screwed a block on the inside of the original case side and used that as a


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you doweled the 3 3/4" pieces to the existing face you shouldn't have to clamp it. Just slide it together with some glue and it shouldn't come loose. You could also toenail the side to the top.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I already cut biscuits for the edge joint. As such, it's a pretty floppy joint and will be until it's glued and cured.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

*Face Frame to Case Gap*

A separate topic:

Face frame gaps (see pics)

Upthread I mentioned a large gap between the face frame and case of another cabinet. I ended up using a a putty knife and an old Japanese saw blade in the gap to clean it out of gunk, dried paint stripper, paint, etc., then used a soft mallet to seat it as tight as it will go. It's much better now but there's still a small gap. How best to deal with that?

The face frame has a bead detail where it connects with the cabinet case, so if I prime and then use caulk in the gap it's likely to obscure and foul the crispness and evenness of the bead? Bondo?

???


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You would be surprised how well a glue joint holds that is just put together without clamping. Then the biscuits make it all the better. As long as the parts fit well you won't have anything to worry about.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top. 
There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly. 

Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?

Also, after the countertop is installed (which will occur later ... I'm awaiting arrival of an edge profile bit and will also likely finish and allow it to cure prior to installation) how best to treat the gap around the edges of the counter top inside the cabinet nook? [I think if I was fabricating this built-in from scratch a shallow dado would be useful to hide any gap in the mating surfaces].


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> A separate topic:
> 
> Face frame gaps (see pics)
> 
> ...


Can you see the ends of it. It appears to be a tongue and groove beaded joint. It might be a piece of solid wood with a simulated joint. This is part of the detail.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top.
> There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly.
> 
> Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?
> ...


If you are painting I would just caulk that. If you are staining you could mask around the spot and use wood putty. Then before it dries wash off the excess with a solvent appropriate for the putty. This would eliminate 99% of the sanding in a hard to sand place.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

The joint isn';t perfectly oriented and I'd prefer to clamp it. The entire cabinet is skewed and I want to dry mount the face frame when I glue up the case side extensions ... I may need to tweak the alignment a little to match the faceframe ... and once I get it into position clamp it so it cures in the right place. It may take a little coercion to get it into position.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> I’m ready to complete the base cabinet. It’s presenting a clamping/glue-up challenge so if anyone has a suggestion please share it.
> 
> The base cabinet is a PITA as there’s no reference surface that’s square, level, or plumb: sink, cabinets above, everything is skewed so I’ve struggled to strike a balance between practicality and appearance.
> 
> ...


My comment is in reference to installing your new face frame; since the cabinet will be painted, I would glue the face frame to the sides and install with four 2” finish nails on each side. The nails will be set, spackled and painted, so they will not be seen.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> The pic in post #61 shows the area.
> 
> Behind the left stile of the base cabinet face frame is the cabinet case side. I'm adding a 3-3/4" wide piece of 3/4" ply to the cabinet case side to make the cabinet deeper (so I can fit a deeper microwave oven on the countertop); essentially it's making a larger panel for the case side. Same thing on the right hand case side but the extension is longer and I have access for clamping).
> The 3-3/4" wide strip of plywood is edge joined to the original cabinet side (latter made of 1" poplar) and I've cut #20 biscuit slots on both edges (plywood strip and original cabinet case). But there's nothing to attach a clamp to to pull them together during glue up. Further, access on the outside of the cabinet is restricted due to the sink cabinet being just a couple inches away on the outside. If this were a cabinet on a bench I could place a bar clamp to reach both outer extremes of the case sides and tighten it up, no problem.
> But the cabinet in situ doesn't provide that option. Clamping forces will need to be in-line so the glued up panel is planar. For example, if I screwed a block on the inside of the original case side and used that as a


Do you have room to add a 1/4” panel of ply to the inside? If yes, this 1/4” panel would tie the two pieces together.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> There's another problem area where the cabinet stiles terminate against the counter top.
> There's now a small gap (the gap on the right side will be even larger as I'm lowering the countertop on that side by about 1/4". I was thinking to fill the gap to use a small shim of wood Bondo'd on the end of the stiles, then shaped to fit cleanly.
> 
> Does that sound like SOP or is there a better way?
> ...


Looking at the picture, the gap seems minimum now. If you lower the the top another 1/4” it becomes unacceptable without an adjustment. I like your idea of using a shim and Bondo, but I would finish with a good silicon caulk around the edges meeting with the countertop.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> The joint isn';t perfectly oriented and I'd prefer to clamp it. The entire cabinet is skewed and I want to dry mount the face frame when I glue up the case side extensions ... I may need to tweak the alignment a little to match the faceframe ... and once I get it into position clamp it so it cures in the right place. It may take a little coercion to get it into position.


If your face frame is square it won’t matter if it overhangs one or both of the sides a little. It will not be noticeable from the front.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Can you see the ends of it. It appears to be a tongue and groove beaded joint. It might be a piece of solid wood with a simulated joint. This is part of the detail.


It's not T&G. There is no fancy joinery. The bead is the edge profile at the rear of the face frame; the face frame is just nailed to the cabinet ... and there's that gap ... you can see light coming through it.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> My comment is in reference to installing your new face frame; since the cabinet will be painted, I would glue the face frame to the sides and install with four 2” finish nails on each side. The nails will be set, spackled and painted, so they will not be seen.


Nail into the plywood edgewise? (I've never been a fan of nails, but whatever works).

I've got 16g 1-1/2" and 2-1/2" nails for my nail gun on hand.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> My comment is in reference to installing your new face frame; since the cabinet will be painted, I would glue the face frame to the sides and install with four 2” finish nails on each side. The nails will be set, spackled and painted, so they will not be seen.





Toolman50 said:


> Do you have room to add a 1/4” panel of ply to the inside? If yes, this 1/4” panel would tie the two pieces together.


There's room but the surfaces aren't flush as the plywood is around 1/4" thinner than the solid wood case it's mating to. Also, I may need the joint top not be perfectly planar. This whole cabinet tis out of whack and the glue up will need to be such that everything 'sort of' fits together. It will need to be clamped to coerce it away from the 'square' fitting of pieces. 

It needs clamping because this cabinet is a huge PITA ... everything is out of whack. It's like playing 3D chess. It would have four times easier to just have torn this out and built it all from scratch.

The right stile (that's to say the broom closet's stile) which the new right case side attaches to is not parallel to the face frame. The stile is rotated so presents itself at an angle out of plane. It's significantly out of parallel so that if I attached the right cabinet plywood extension side to it that case side will not be square to the face frame. But 'the buck stops here' ... I'm not renovating Monticello, so I'm leaving it as it is and it's where I draw the line. Because everything is cockeyed and out of square it means my glue up is going to be more complicated as I need to force pieces into place and have them stay there. Simply putting glue on and pressing pieces together than walking away will end badly. 

The plywood cabinet side-to-stile is connection is biscuit joined but it's not going to fit flush against the stile ... it's rotated out a little so it's square to the face frame. Again, the buck stops here. [I'd considered cutting the case side edge at an angle to make up for the defect, but my biscuit jointer is a 25+ year old Porter Cable with the worst designed fence and difficult to adjust in the best of circumstances and it doesn't do angles so I'd need to also make a beveled fence for it .... etc. etc. ...then I'd have a case side badly out of square to the face frame and highly visible ... so this is the balance I've struck]. 

Anyway, I need to assemble this carefully, clamp it securely, and apply the right pressure in the right places.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> You would be surprised how well a glue joint holds that is just put together without clamping. Then the biscuits make it all the better. As long as the parts fit well you won't have anything to worry about.


Nothing fits well on this cabinet! 
Absolutely _nothing_.

The crux is going to be getting the assembly and clamping completed.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> If your face frame is square it won’t matter if it overhangs one or both of the sides a little. It will not be noticeable from the front.


But it will from the side. The entrance door to the kitchen is just to the right of the cabinet ... one foot away and almost in-line with the face frame. 

Also, the more I look at this cabinet, the more I dislike it. That right stile being so narrow just looks completely stupid. 
I'm considering adding a strip 1/2"+ or so to the right stile to make it wider. It would extend beyond the case side. Adding width to the stile is problematic as there's not a lot of room to play with as the broom closet door needs clearance to swing closed without hitting the case side or counter top and I also need to maintain a 1" overhang on the right side of the counter top for balance. The cabinet just looks weird with that skinny stile. It will look even weirder when the drawer face overlays the stile a little making it look even narrower.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lovegasoline said:


> Nothing fits well on this cabinet!
> Absolutely _nothing_.
> 
> The crux is going to be getting the assembly and clamping completed.


You may not be able to cut a part off at 90 degrees and have it fit on these cabinets but you could cut the necessary angles to make it fit.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lovegasoline said:


> There's room but the surfaces aren't flush as the plywood is around 1/4" thinner than the solid wood case it's mating to. Also, I may need the joint top not be perfectly planar. This whole cabinet tis out of whack and the glue up will need to be such that everything 'sort of' fits together. It will need to be clamped to coerce it away from the 'square' fitting of pieces.
> 
> It needs clamping because this cabinet is a huge PITA ... everything is out of whack. It's like playing 3D chess. It would have four times easier to just have torn this out and built it all from scratch.
> 
> ...


Okay, let’s clamp it. Take a board and screw it to the inside wall of your cabinet. This is temporary. It must be screwed tightly because this will be what you clamp to to pull the face frame. Once the frame is installed and your glue has dried for a few hours, the clamp or clamps are removed and the inside clamping board is removed.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

OK, I'll figure a clamping scheme out.

I need to move this project along and get some primer on, I'm running out of time for this stage. 

Regarding the cabinet face frame gap, how to address that? 
It seems to me that this face frame can move a little, at least along this edge, there was a bigger gap here previous. All the opening and closing of the doors is going to transfer onto the face frame (these doors are sort of heavy). So I sense that that gap may get some movement ... should I shoot more nails into it? Ideally, I'd take the face frame off, clean the mating surfaces and remount. I' will not do that as it's an integral part of the cabinet's construction. But I need to fill that gap. It's tricky because there's the beading detail to maintain.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Mounting Butcher Block Counter Top
I have an approx. 34" x 21"x 1" butcher block counter top (ubiquitous IKEA item that came my way) that I'm going to use for the base cabinet. Do I have to factor in any wood movement for the counter top mounting? I have a long cleat at the top of each cabinet case side cabinet side that I plan to use to mount the top, and I'll also add a cleat to the wall for the back edge. The front will be supported by the face frame.

Any suggestions in mounting & support for the top?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

^
I've not secured a butcher block surface before, is it necessary to attach it so as to allow for movement from expansion/contraction?


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## nywoodwizard (Oct 31, 2006)

I used a heat gun to soften and remove paint, works pretty good. 

For gaps at the wall, like one said just use a small piece of trim. Only other way is cut a small strip of wood and push into the gap, secure by screwing through the inside of face frame, then caulk any small remaining gaps. Any type of filler will not last.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

nywoodwizard said:


> I used a heat gun to soften and remove paint, works pretty good.
> 
> For gaps at the wall, like one said just use a small piece of trim. Only other way is cut a small strip of wood and push into the gap, secure by screwing through the inside of face frame, then caulk any small remaining gaps. Any type of filler will not last.


Unfortunately, the guys that skim coated the walls ended up filling the gaps with joint. I may smooth a bead of latex caulk over it in hopes of concealing and containing any cracking. 

The base coats are oil paint (probably 30-40 years of oil before the latex era) and although I can't be sure, I think a heat gun wouldn't make much headway.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Unless you want to make the bead go away you better mask it off before putting bondo on it. Probably when it was made the joint was tight and wood movement made the side shrink in width creating a gap. Bondo is an excellent filler to use for that application. If you used spackle it would take forever to dry and if the side shrank again the spackle would fall out. Bondo will stay there.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

UPDATES:

I haven't posted an update to this epic journey since 2018. 

Much of the work has been done and I'll put up some pics of the results. 

Some tasks were put on the back burner with technical challenges still to resolve ... and perhaps I'll resume and tie up those remaining loose ends.
A big thanks are due to all the contributing forum members for your insightful input, suggestions, experience, and creativity on offer ... it would have been impossible for me to have made progress without all your exceptional input. 

...

After stripping the paint of a window frame I found the edge profile badly deteriorated (what else is new?!). One benefit of this renovation was that it reacquainted me with my hand tools (my initial awakening during the days of rec.woodworking of the 90s), gave me a deeper appreciation of them, and an opportunity to improve my scope and skillset. I got an old Stanley #78 Rabbet Plane and reestablished the profile:


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