# How does kick-back pull your hand to the blade?



## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

Hello...

Up to this point I haven't experienced any kick backs myself, which I am very thankful for... I want to say that's because I'm a very cautious person, but it's probably because I haven't made that many cuts with my table saw - fewer than 100 times.

I didn't have guts to watch some of those horror YouTube videos that someone getting his thumb cut off, either... So, in other words, I have heard a lot about this kick in thing, but I have never actually seen one.


I can sorta understand how this kick back can happen, considering the direction that the table saw blade rotates. However, when this kick back happens, how does it pull the operators hand into the blade? 

I mean... if the board got kicked back.. shouldn't that push the operator away from the table rather?

Would this grabbing/pulling-in only happen to the hand that has passed the blade (like after pushing/feeding the board all the way)? That makes sense since the direction of the kick back and pulling are the same.

Or, is it like the kicked back board hits the operator's belly, hits it so hard to cause his/her body to bend forward and some body parts/limbs end up touching the blade? Hmm.. that sounds somewhat far-fetched.


Well, I am just thinking that if I can understand the mechanics of this kick back and pull in a little better, that may help operating my table saw more safely. 

And who knows? I may even be able to train my muscles so that when my hand actually gets pulled in, I can perform certain pre-determined/trained reflective action out of muscle memory to help prevent/minimize any injuries...


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Yamster,I'd have to do some ruminating on exactly what is refered to as a "kick back".

A pc that gets trapped between blade and fence,simply becomes a projectile.About 20 or so years ago,a VERY well repected builder friend had one hit him so hard........and his major mistake was bein too stubborn to get it checked,resulted in his death due to internal bleeding.Very sad/tragic.

Another way for,or to define it would be due to a pinch....where the bd hasn't been fully cut.What happens then is a crap shoot.Whether or not your hand gets jerked into blade is certainly a possibilty.What the exact reasons for this(not the initial pinch,but the resultant hand jerk)is,can't really say......it happens amazingly fast though.BW


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Look this is my opinion and although I didn't have a kick back I did have a TS accident and went over it in my head like a million times. I also have talked to people that did have kickback so like i said it's my opinion.

First off i don't think you hand gets pulled in unless you have it on the backside of the blade and or have something like a shirt sleeve that gets pulled in. It more likely that the board lifts or moves forward and you make a reaction to stop it. there fore the board is gone may or may not hit your hand but your hand comes in contact with the blade because of the reaction to stop it. As said it does happen fast.

In my case I was feeding the board in and it had a certain resistance to it. However as I put the push stick on and pushed for whatever reason the board went forward faster than expected resulting in my other hand moving forward across the blade. I saw my finger dangling well before I even knew i cut it off. Well all most off there was a little piece of skin holding on. i actually cut the thumb also but didn't even notice until like just before the surgery. 

As for how many times you cut vs others it don't matter i know people have done it within a few first cuts or like me over 20+ years without an accident then one day a bad one.

Safe procedure and concentration is your best defense. Respect for the saw helps also but in my case it was only one moment of lost concentration just a split second and it was to late. 

Use the guard unless it is impossible (Rarely is it), Use push sticks, feather boards, don't reach behind the blade, use side and out feed tables, keep your hands away from the blade. Don't think of anything but what your doing while cutting (no distractions) use safety glasses or better yet a face shield. With out my shield i would have had blood in my eyes.:laughing:

Seriously though even with every precaution it can still happen. Me I opted for a Sawstop, that way I have that as a back up in the event of another accident. I don't plan on being one of the woodworkers with multiple fingers missing from different accidents, one is enough for me.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

+1. I agree with both those guys. It's a reaction that you can't train to resist. 












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This explains it best*

no blood or missing fingers. :no: bill

BTW an outfeed suport will be a great asset in preventing loss of control of the workpiece as it clears the back of the blade. and having to reach over the blade to catch it... a definite no no


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

If your hand is on the stock, between the blade and fence, and you allow the stock to come away from the fence, the stock will be picked up by the back of the blade, pulling it onto the blade and slinging it backward. I can easily see ones hand getting in to contact with the blade in this scenario. 


P.S. This happens alot faster with solid stock compared to the piece of foam used in the video demonstration.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

mdntrdr said:


> If your hand is on the stock, between the blade and fence, and you allow the stock to come away from the fence, the stock will be picked up by the back of the blade, pulling it onto the blade and slinging it backward. I can easily see ones hand getting in to contact with the blade in this scenario.
> 
> 
> P.S. This happens a lot faster with solid stock compared to the piece of foam used in the video demonstration.


The blade spins towards you which is why it throws things at you. I don't think it could throw the piece back because that would be against physics. Either way I'm willing to bet it's that reaction to get control that causes 90% of the hand to blade accidents. I would go higher then that because of how mine happen but it seems more likely to have kickback and a reaction then the weird way mine happen. 

I could be wrong, but i doubt it.:laughing:


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

rrbrown said:


> The blade spins towards you which is why it throws things at you. I don't think it could throw the piece back because that would be against physics. Either way I'm willing to bet it's that reaction to get control that causes 90% of the hand to blade accidents. I would go higher then that because of how mine happen but it seems more likely to have kickback and a reaction then the weird way mine happen.
> 
> I could be wrong, but i doubt it.:laughing:


 
Richard, You may have missunderstood my post.

I stated the piece will be picked up, pulled to the left, and thrown back ( towards you).

I am somewhat familliar with blade rotation. :laughing:

Maybe I wasn't clear. :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Kickback is a misnomer...*

cause that ain't what happens. You are both right, it spits it back at you, not "back" as in backwards. :blink:

This is probably confusing to folks starting out. The video shows what happens and I thought was a clever and safe way to demonstrate the forces involved. 
A blade pinch may cause a kickback or it may just stall the saw.
A smaller piece where you don't have that much leverage as on a longer one is more apt to lift up and over the blade and come back at you. That's been my experience anyway. I can stall my smaller 10" Craftsman saws, but I doubt if I could stall the 5 HP 12" Powermatic.  bill​


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> cause that ain't what happens. You are both right, it spits it back at you, not "back" as in backwards. :blink:​


 
I still say... "back," is backwards, "forward," being the feed direction of your stock. :huh:

Anywho... We should all be on the same page by now. :turned:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Now I'm confused*

Doesn't a kickback kick it back at you where "back" as in the back of the saw or the rear, would be forward according to you, the feed direction? :blink: ......Don't bother me now, I still tryin' to find the page you're on....What book you usin'? :laughing: bill




mdntrdr said:


> I still say... "back," is backwards, "forward," being the feed direction of your stock. :huh:
> 
> Anywho... *We should all be on the same page by now.* :turned:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mdntrdr said:


> I still say... "back," is backwards, "forward," being the feed direction of your stock. :huh:
> 
> Anywho... We should all be on the same page by now. :turned:


+1. I agree. It's simple. As you feed the wood in forward...a kick back...kicks it back to you. Makes sense to me.:laughing:












 







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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> Doesn't a kickback kick it back at you where "back" as in the back of the saw or the rear, would be forward according to you, the feed direction? :blink: ......Don't bother me now, I still tryin' to find the page you're on....What book you usin'? :laughing: bill


 
Well, acording to Hoyle... this should be fairly simple. :no:

Maybe rr will chime in and give us the definitive answer.

What say you Rich? :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Webster's defintion*

"Back" 
_a_ *:* the side or surface opposite the front or face *:* the rear part; _also_ *:* the farther or reverse side _b_ *:* something at or on the back for support <_back_ of a chair> _c_ *:* a place away from the front <sat in _back_>

If back is the opposite of the front, then a kick"back" would be towards the rear, not the front.
"Back at you" or "it comes back to you" like calling a dog "come back Blackie" means to return from where it came. "I'm going back home" 

Holye wasn't home when I called, so I left a message. Hope this clears things up. :no: I'm done here...leaving now....bye....:yes: bill


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## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

ha ha...

You guys are craking me up...

Anyway, thank you all for the replies. That video was actually quite eye-opening to me. Now I know I can get some serious injury without even contacting the spinning blade (from the kick back).


Well, I have ordered that Micro Jig push handle thingy today, and now I think I probably have spent my money wisely this time (doesn't happen that often)... of course unless someone shows me more cost efficient alternative.

At first I didn't like Micro Jig so much when I saw the video demo because with a lot of operations they showed in demo the operator's hands actually goes directly over the blade (although the jigs are between the hand and the blade all the time). I just didn't like the idea of getting my hands that close to the blade, no matter what's in between.

But then again, I realized those operations usually do require the hands to get close to the blade one way or another. I also know sometimes injuries can happen when you are too afraid and do something in improper manner because of the fear - I think there's a big difference between being careful and being afraid. Trying to use a push stick for a board wider than 6" (like the video above) could be such example.. 

So, I decided to get a pair of this jig. Man, they are kinda expensive though... I know, I know.. it's still cheaper than a surgery or a visti to emergency room.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Yamster,you've taken what I consider to be a big step fwd.You're thinking about safety and ways to manage it,cool deal!

Not suggesting this for anyone....more of a personal thing.One aspect of "roller" outfeed tables is that they can be tuned,tweaked,setup(whatever)....to steer the stock twds rip fence ever so slightly.BW


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BWSmith said:


> Not suggesting this for anyone....more of a personal thing.One aspect of "roller" outfeed tables is that they can be tuned,tweaked,setup(whatever)....to steer the stock twds rip fence ever so slightly.BW


Stands may help. This one folds up and can get stored. They go on sale periodically for around $12+.












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*outfeed support!*

One of the most simple safety "accessories" I have is the outfeed table directly behind my saw. It helps support long pieces and sometimes I even need a roller support after the table ends. It catches shorter lengths 3 ft and shorter without having to worry about them falling off or having to grab them over the blade as they are cut....a big no no. :thumbdown: 
I do have to walk around the saw and sort the finished pieces when they start to pile up. This is not a problem...safety after the cut is equally important as safety while cutting...like BW says "get in the mindset of thinking safety". My rule is never to put my hands or fingers in direct line with the blade. To avoid this you must be aware of where the blade is, but you don't have to watch it cutting. Your focus should be on keeping the stock against the fence, and where to apply the pushing pressure on the workpiece to best accomplish this. The video makes this point very well.:yes: 
Focusing on the process, what's going to happen, where the important parts are...hands, blade...fence...workpiece are vital.
 bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*roller stands...*



cabinetman said:


> Stands may help. This one folds up and can get stored. They go on sale periodically for around $12+.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have them and use them with these important caveats .... get more than one, support the work before it has a chance to sag as it leaves the machine since it will knock the stand over if it hits even slightly below the the top of the roller. Then you have a real problem.  I use them on the infeed side as well as outfeed. If a piece is that long to require support then make sure it's a stable support and these stands are not the most stable. :no: bill
You can easily remove the rollers and substitute a wide plank and shown in this thread: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/outfeed-rollers-planing-21226/

These are more stable: Amazon.com: Ridgid AC99331-2 Flip Top Work Support: Home Improvement


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I have them and use them with these important caveats .... get more than one, support the work before it has a chance to sag as it leaves the machine since it will knock the stand over if it hits even slightly below the the top of the roller. Then you have a real problem.  I use them on the infeed side as well as outfeed. If a piece is that long to require support then make sure it's a stable support and these stands are not the most stable. :no: bill


Any stand can get knocked over if the contact is off. Common sense will minimize that. Thoughtful placement can make the difference.



woodnthings said:


> You can easily remove the rollers and substitute a wide plank and shown in this thread: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/outfeed-rollers-planing-21226/


I prefer the ease of rollers versus the friction of a wood surface. I wouldn't want any "grabbing", or sudden jerkiness while cutting. Maybe a laminate covered board (a very smooth surface), or even melamine, would work. That type of surface would replicate what an outfeed table might have.



woodnthings said:


> These are more stable: Amazon.com: Ridgid AC99331-2 Flip Top Work Support: Home Improvement


The link you provided states: 
*Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.*












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK*



cabinetman said:


> Any stand can get knocked over if the contact is off. Common sense will minimize that. Thoughtful placement can make the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are these "helpful" comments or are you just being "critical'....:blink: again?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Are these "helpful" comments or are you just being "critical'....:blink: again?


Sounds pretty helpful to me. If you think they are just "critical" AGAIN, you're not seeing them as being helpful. Stating pros and cons to a suggestion gives way to a better understanding. I don't see how "critical" is an issue. If a response doesn't agree, does that mean the opinion is meant to criticize? Some of us may be more sensitive to responses than others. Maybe my choice of words should be more selective. Or, realize that making statements or posting information becomes a subject of conversation. I think the members on this forum earnestly try to help others and do so with respect. If I haven't been respectful...I apologize.












 







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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

I wasn't refering to single "roller".........we use Mathews brand conveyor sections.Lots N lots of rollers.Serious pet peeve is folks using my machines for storage.......assembly tables....just about anything other than well,as designed machines.It(junk on machines)also is a major contributer to accidents.So to keep my emotions in check went with surplus conveyor 20+ years ago,and will never use anything but.

Occasionally will use a custom built roller on infeed side,its ballzee enough that you can sit on one end and not tip it over.

You can get rollers in just about any size,some come with spring loaded hex-shafted ends.Again,used in conveyor world....the spring loaded "pins" allow install without frame disassembly.The little "pipsqueak" rollers sold at all the usual places are a "tad" small and deffinately too tippy.You get what you pay for in material handling.BW


Oh yeah,BTW....."material handling" is one of the fundemental basics.Its "foundational" because unless you're sporting a magic carpet(and thats a stretch)......uhhh,you can't start any process without loading sumthing.Beit manual or automated.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*spindly little rollers...*

That was my point exactly. I have 'em and I use 'em, but they are definitely problematic. ...tippy. The other issue I have with roller out feeds, like the photo below, is that once the stock leaves the blade it takes off runnin' down hill even if the table is level and the work drops on the floor and gets all buggered up. You find yourself reaching over to stop it and that's a no no. :thumbdown:
The idea of replacing the rollers with a wide plank works for me since the plank offer a little resistance, not enough to be a problem and the work stays put. I shellaced my outfeed table and that's almost as slick as a HPL. I found the spindly rollers when used with a plank are less apt to tip over. As far as getting the work to ride up over the rollers they either have to be close to the rear of the saw or set lower than dead level...my experience. "Common sense" is different to everyone so I won't go there. 

As far as those HD mutiple rollers I'd love to have some. :yes: I do have the collapsible ones by General, but those work best when the height of the work is constant like a table saw, NOT a planer.
I just saw a post by a fellow who reached behind the blade a lost some blood when it caught the rear. I see if I can find it. 
bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I just saw a post by a fellow who reached behind the blade a lost some blood when it caught the rear. I see if I can find it.
> bill


This might be the thread. Reaching behind the blade can be a hazard if the operator isn't paying attention. I don't think there were safety devices installed...like a blade guard. Saying it's a no-no, is a personal call, and if an operator doesn't feel safe with any procedure, he/she shouldn't do it.












 







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## Yamster (Jun 15, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> ...The other issue I have with roller out feeds, like the photo belwo, is that once the stock leaves the blade it takes off runnin' down hill even if the table is level and the work drops on the floor and gets all buggered up. You find yourself reaching over to stop it and that's a no no. :thumbdown:
> The idea of replacing the rollers with a wide plank works for me since the plank offer a little resistance, not enough to be a problem and the work stays put. I shellaced my outfeed table and that's almost as slick as a HPL. I found the spindly rollers when used with a plank are less apt to tip over. As far as getting the work to ride up over the rollers they either have to be close to the rear of the saw or set lower than dead level...my experience. "Common sense" is different to everyone so I won't go there.
> 
> As far as those HD mutiple rollers I'd love to have some. :yes: I do have the collapsible ones by General, but those work best when the height of the work is constant like a table saw, NOT a planer.
> ...


Hmm.. I can see the table saw top is also used as a storage. Good use of the sapce. Now I feel better knowing that I am the only one doing that. LOL


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup!*



Yamster said:


> Hmm.. I can see the table saw top is also used as a storage. Good use of the sapce. Now I feel better knowing that I am the only one doing that. LOL


That's why they call 'em "table" saws. 
And that's why you need more than one.....:laughing: bill

BTW This saw is currently out of service due to space limitations and lack of storage for the items seen on the top. Some day I'll get organized ....


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Yamster said:


> Hmm.. I can see the table saw top is also used as a storage. Good use of the sapce. Now I feel better knowing that I am the only one doing that. LOL


Another safety hazard is using your saw table for storage while using it as a saw. It's too easy to just push parts and tools out of the way in order to cut something. This suggestion fits most machinery use. And, as long as I'm going off on being neat and clean, check your floors. It's likely there may be a cut off of something to get under your foot, or a cord to trip over.












 







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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> This might be the thread. Reaching behind the blade can be a hazard if the operator isn't paying attention. I don't think there were safety devices installed...like a blade guard. Saying it's a no-no, is a personal call, and if an operator doesn't feel safe with any procedure, he/she shouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While it's true if an operator don't feel safe he shouldn't do it, Just because an operator feels safe doing something don't make it safe. Case in point Osario case. He had no fence or guard but he was to ignorant to feel unsafe.

That said reaching behind a spinning blade or not is a no-no because it creates an unsafe habit that can then come back to bite you. Same goes for using a saw without the guard. Yes it can at times need to be removed but a bad design made it a PITA to easily put back on so people we use saws without the guard more often then needed. Bad habit that can and will come back to bite you at some point given enough time.


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