# Burnishing Scrapers



## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

I have a round nose and flat scraper. I recently got a Veritas woodturners' scraper burnisher with those hardened cones that can burnish at 5 or 10 degrees and recommended scraper bevel of 70 to 80 degrees. I tried it on one of my scrapers and it almost pulled the tool out of my hand under the piece I was trying to scrape. So I must've burnished too much of a curl or something. I thought my scrapers were sharpened to the right angles, but found out they're in the 60's.

Anyways, anyone an expert at sharpening/burnishing scrapers? What angle should I go with if I want a scraper to do fine finishing work and what burnisher cone should I use with it?


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## Big Jim (Sep 29, 2011)

*Me?*

By burnishing I think you mean polishing. I never have! I grind my scrapers to about 75* as I have all my grinding tables set at the same angle and use it over and over all year long.
I simply place my scraper on a table and quickly do a twist of the shaper while in touch with the wheel Takes a second or two. That refreshes my edge so I can continue with that scraper.
For a finer shaping I use sanding paper! 
Big Jim


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Since I use a Tormek, I raise a bur by using a burnishing tool. it's essentially the same as raising a bur on a cabinet scraper. Although a burnishing tool is used, the scraper isn't being burnished in the sense that one normally thinks of burnishing. However, the hardened steel rod of a burnishing tool is ideal for raising a strong solid bur that is much more durable and sharper than the crumbly bur that you get when using a bench grinder.

An angle of 60° is really aggressive and a more blunt angle of 70 to 80 degrees would be more satisfactory. When raising the bur first use a diamond hone to remove any grinder bur and then use the burnishing tool. It is easy to think that a lot of force is needed to raise the bur, but in reality a far lighter force gives better results. It is something that you will need to teach yourself by incrementally adjusting the pressure you use until you get a bur that is to your liking. This type of bur is strong so always use light pressure when scraping and be sure to keep the handle angled down. Otherwise, you will find the tool digging into the wood and even yanking the tool out of your hands

On the outside of a bowl you should be scraping below center and on the inside you should be scraping above center.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I use a strip sander to sharpen scrapers. It leaves enough of a burr on it. Are you talking about a card scraper?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nope*



hwebb99 said:


> I use a strip sander to sharpen scrapers. It leaves enough of a burr on it. Are you talking about a card scraper?


OP stated:
I have a round nose and flat scraper. I recently got a Veritas * woodturners' scraper *burnisher with those hardened cones that can burnish at 5 or 10 degrees and recommended scraper bevel of 70 to 80 degrees.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> This type of bur is strong so always use light pressure when scraping and be sure to keep the handle angled down. ...


 I know exactly what you mean, and so do most people here I imagine, but it struck me there might be a little ambiguity there for someone with little or no experience with using scrapers.

The _handle_ of the tool will actually be pointing slightly up, not down, so that the end of the handle is slightly higher than the point at which the scraper is contacting the wood, right?

I'd describe that as the tip being angled down rather than the handle, now I think about it.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Thanks for making that clarification. I should have been clearer and said something like the tool pointed slightly down with rhe *back* end of the handle up. To a beginner some things that turners say leaves room for more than one interpretation.

One my favorite gripes about turners and woodworkers in general is stating angles. Some will say they put a 20° bevel angle on their scrapers, meaning the air angle relative to the original square edge of the tool. Maybe it's a carryover from the way that angles are measured on a table saw.I prefer to state 70° meaning the included angle of the steel. The same thing is heard when describing the toe to heel angle on a skew chisel. Oddly enough, I seem to be on the other side of the fence regarding this one

Then there's "grub screw" and "setscrew". Newbies get perplexed wondering what is the difference because they seem to look the same. My answer is "a couple thousand miles of ocean is the difference".


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> One my favorite gripes about turners and woodworkers in general is stating angles.


 Mine too, and not simply the manner in which those angles are described, but the obsessive level to which some of the discussions about them seem to proceed.

One of the great joys of woodturning for me—by contrast with years of exacting restoration and reproduction flatwork—is that I can work for weeks, even months, without any numbers in my head at all.

I have no clue what any of the angles on my turning tools actually are, and zero desire to measure any of them. 

I suppose if pressed I could guess the angle to within a few degrees if doing so would help a beginner to find a starting point for their own personal experimentation, but otherwise it interests me not at all.

I've witnessed online discussions, even fights, about sharpening angles which have gone on for hundreds of comments in a single thread, with some folks getting so exercised about the topic that they end up having the most spectacular online temper tantrums.

Enduring a root canal is more appealing to me than discussions like that, now that dentistry has progressed from where it was in my youth...:yes:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I've been a wood carver for some time. I've measured all of the total included bevel (metal) angles for all of my tools, from a D-adze to a planer knife = what works and what doesn't, I suppose. For the sake of consistency, I free hand sharpen and hone everything with a predictable result. All I can say is that 5 degrees makes a world of difference in hand work like carving and I ain't getting any youonger.

I've read all kinds of hissy-fit posts in wood carving forums, as 9thousandfeet points out. Pick a method, any method, learn to be comptetent and you'll have a good time.

Remember the astronomer, Galileo? "Never refuse an old wine or a new idea."


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## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

I wasn't trying to split hairs, just wondered if there were any "tried and trued" methods with burnishing scrapers to give about the cleanest cut you could with one. I think I _over_-burnished mine to cause that much dig in that I had, lol. I re-ground my flat scraper close to 75 degrees and did a few light passes on the scraper burnisher. I had some nice "fluffy" thin shavings come off on the lathe. I wasn't sure if the finish compared to my skew's cut though. Keeping a consistent angle with the scraper on the tool rest seems pretty important. I guess I'll keep experimenting. I'd like to figure out how to put a *strong *burr on my hollowing tool's cutter.

:batman:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I've never wanted to carve hair or fingers so I test the fresh edge in a piece of carving wood. Do a little, test the edge. Do a little, test the edge. That's how I figured out what worked and what didn't.

One unwritten trick is to paint the edge with black felt marker. Have a 10X magnifier and a very bright light handy. I know in an instant what my abrasives have done.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Thorn495 said:


> I re-ground my flat scraper close to 75 degrees and did a few light passes on the scraper burnisher. I had some nice "fluffy" thin shavings come off on the lathe.


 75 degrees sounds ok to me for a general purpose tool, and fluffy is definitely good.

You might find that different timbers respond more agreeably to scrapers than others no matter what angle put on them. Some, like a lot of the elm around here, just won't hardly scrape at all without making you crazy.
And some woods will knock the burr off your scrapers so fast it makes no sense to turn the grinder off between touch-ups at all.

On some troublesome occasions I take the burr completely off with a small diamond hone then give the bevel on the scraper a quick swipe with the same hone, just one single time. That will often tame a scraper that's acting frisky without having to change the angle at all.

Then there's the "negative rake" approach, which is where you put a bevel on both sides of the tool so the included angle at the cutting edge is actually _greater_ than 90 degrees. That works for some really difficult woods too, and I've been told that it's definitely the way to go for some other materials like plastics and the like, though I have no experience with them.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Thorn495 said:


> .... I guess I'll keep experimenting. I'd like to figure out how to put a *strong *burr on my hollowing tool's cutter.


Do that only if you are wanting to get a catch from Hell. For your hollowing tools, just occasionally touch up the tip on the bench grinder. with the long overhang on hollowing tools they can be hard to control is the tip wants to grab too big a bite.

If you are looking for excitement when hollowing then consider making a hook tool.


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## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> Do that only if you are wanting to get a catch from Hell. For your hollowing tools, just occasionally touch up the tip on the bench grinder. with the long overhang on hollowing tools they can be hard to control is the tip wants to grab too big a bite.
> 
> If you are looking for excitement when hollowing then consider making a hook tool.


Catch from hell, hollowing? Bring it on! My hollowing tool has a 22" long handle and 18" long shaft. It's dope! Leverage has been in my favor ever since I got it.

I wish I could hollow like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXevUvhQEMA

Does he use a hook tool?


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Thorn495 said:


> Catch from hell, hollowing? Bring it on! My hollowing tool has a 22" long handle and 18" long shaft. It's dope! Leverage has been in my favor ever since I got it. ......


Ah, young grasshopper, snatch the pebble from my hand. :laughing:

What is the diameter of this 18" long tool shank? And, how far have you actually extended it over the tool rest?

Have you used a hook tool? They're basically an inside out gouge. They cut rather than scrape, but they have some restrictions ... or, at least, I have some self imposed restrictions: end grain green wood only.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> ... However, the hardened steel rod of a burnishing tool is ideal for raising a *strong* solid bur ......





Thorn495 said:


> ...... I guess I'll keep experimenting. I'd like to figure out how to put a *strong *burr on my hollowing tool's cutter.....


I think that (once again) I need to clarify some confusion that I am guilty of causing. In my quote above from one of my earlier posts, I mention creating a strong solid bur. My intent was to differentiate it from the bur that is created when using a bench grinder. The bur that a scraper gets from a bench grinder has a somewhat sawtooth look. When I use a Tormek, there is essentially no bur created by the grinding wheel so it's necessary to use a burnisher to create the bur. This type of bur is sharp and continuous like a knife blade and more durable than the grinder bur, hence I used the word "strong". With some experience this type of bur can be made very small or very large ... "large" is what we normally associate with the term "strong bur". So, anyway I hope that I clarified that I didn't mean to say that you should create an aggressive bur. One of my heavy duty scrapers does have a wicked bevel that must be in the neighborhood of 45 degrees after Alan Lacer said that I needed to move out my comfort zone ... it also has a *STRONG* bur ... in every sense of the word. It's great for removing wood, but I don't use it for cleaning up tool marks. :laughing:

Yes, it is easy to do too much burnishing. Usually that will cause the bur to curl over or break off from work-hardening. I basically follow the same procedure as I do when putting a bur on a cabinet scraper if you are familiar with that. The tool that I use is an oval shaped polished rod of extremely hard steel ... hard as a file, if not harder. The one that I have is very old because it says, "Made in W. Germany" ... how long ago has that been? I have searched, but haven't been able to find this type of tool any longer.


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## tewitt1949 (Nov 26, 2013)

Is it my eyes or is the wood turning backwards? Sometimes it looks like it turning one way then later its turning the other way. What makes me think its turning backwards is when hes boring the end. He's cutting on the left side of the hole.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

tewitt1949 said:


> Is it my eyes or is the wood turning backwards? Sometimes it looks like it turning one way then later its turning the other way. What makes me think its turning backwards is when hes boring the end. He's cutting on the left side of the hole.


It's your eyes or really it is the frame rate of the camera. The strobe effect is similar to what you might remember seeing on old westerns where the stagecoach wheels looked like they were turning backwards when the bad guys were chasing it.

If you continue watching to where he turns the motor off, you will see the direction of rotation more clearly as the lathe slow down. It's the funny shaped tool with a curved tip that gives the impression tat he is turning on the other side of the vase. He has something that looks like a repurposed machete to give a final smooth surface.


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## Big Jim (Sep 29, 2011)

*I differ in pinion.*

The guy is turning backwards from what we are familiar with. Look at the shavings. They are going away from him, not back in his face. Look at the floor, most all of the shavings are away from the guy not back under his feet.
Then look at his front hand, he is holding those tools down really hard.
Nope I agree with the poster he is turning backward from what we are familiar with.
Also he is turning MANGO I have turned plenty of it and it is really soft and easy to turn.
Big Jim :vs_love:


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## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

The video was pretty cool, eh? 3rd world wood turning. I looked into shear scraping too. That might be the ticket. I can't turn the lathe on since the Mrs. is asleep, but I put my scraper at a 45 degree angle and turned a piece by hand -- made shiny, clean cuts.

I also investigated ways to check a sharpened tool's edge through magnification. I found a chef's knife website where people gave good reviews to jeweler's loupes for checking edges. That'd be neat to check burrs with (and useful for removing splinters). Anyone know where I could find a jeweler's loupe, locally? I'm tired of ordering stuff online and waiting.

Sometimes I feel like I'm on a Legend of Zelda quest; looking for the next item to get me to another level in the game. I've searched for some pretty obscure stuff for woodworking before. I remember texting my girlfriend "I found plastic flower braids for my ice tray" (it was for a hummingbird feeder project) and thinking I was the only person to say that sentence in the world that day.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

A simpler way to check for sharpness without drawing blood ... an old woodcarver's saying is, "if you can see the edge then you don't have an edge". It means that a perfect edge has no thickness and therefore can't reflect back any light. Look at the edge in sunlight or bright artificial light and if you see any glint or beads of light then the edge isn't sharp. The way that I check the bur on a scraper is to run my thumbnail along the backside of the bur while lightly pushing forward. If the bur can't hold my nail from slipping off the front of the tool then it is either worn out or if freshly sharpened, the bur wasn't done right. Sometimes I unintentionally do the blood test. If you don't feel a thing when you draw blood, you have a good edge. I don't recommend this test.

I don't shop in South Carolina so I can't help you with the question about finding things locally.

It may be an exciting adventure, but rather than continually reinventing the wheel, I would highly recommend joining a local woodturning club. South Carolina is fortunate enough to have five clubs in the following cities: Charleston, Wilmington, Columbia, Bluffton, and Greenwood.


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## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> A simpler way to check for sharpness without drawing blood ... an old woodcarver's saying is, "if you can see the edge then you don't have an edge". It means that a perfect edge has no thickness and therefore can't reflect back any light. Look at the edge in sunlight or bright artificial light and if you see any glint or beads of light then the edge isn't sharp. The way that I check the bur on a scraper is to run my thumbnail along the backside of the bur while lightly pushing forward. If the bur can't hold my nail from slipping off the front of the tool then it is either worn out or if freshly sharpened, the bur wasn't done right. Sometimes I unintentionally do the blood test. If you don't feel a thing when you draw blood, you have a good edge. I don't recommend this test.
> 
> I don't shop in South Carolina so I can't help you with the question about finding things locally.
> 
> It may be an exciting adventure, but rather than continually reinventing the wheel, I would highly recommend joining a local woodturning club. South Carolina is fortunate enough to have five clubs in the following cities: Charleston, Wilmington, Columbia, Bluffton, and Greenwood.


Thanks for looking up the clubs in SC. I'm in Georgia now and go to the Lowcountry Turner's meeting the last Thursday of each month; trying to make some woodworking friends there.

I looked into shear scraping (pretty much tilting the tool 45 degrees on the bur to cut). I can't seem to get a consistent cut throughout the length of a piece doing it that way. The desired effect I had in mind was this piece I used a skew on and it came out with this very sparkly, shiny grain that looked like it was oiled and sanded beyond 4,000 grit. I'm not sure how I got that effect. The bevel burnishing the wood after it's cut? I'm not proficient enough with the skew to go over a few curves after shaping a piece without making mistakes in some spots to get the desired effect throughout the entire piece though. :icon_confused:


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Thorn495 said:


> ..... I'm not sure how I got that effect. The bevel burnishing the wood after it's cut? I'm not proficient enough with the skew to go over a few curves after shaping a piece without making mistakes in some spots to get the desired effect throughout the entire piece though. :icon_confused:


I'm glad that you are involved with a turning club. When I first started turning, the folks at the local Rockler's kept telling me that that would be the best way to get me jump started. I was resistant for a few months until I figured out that I wasn't going to make much progress otherwise. That was twelve years ago and I am enjoying it just as much as when I first joined. Now, I'm a mentor paying it forward to beginners who are at the same place in their journey that I was back then. Hopefully, your club has a mentoring program or some other opportunities to get newbies turning with confidence and answer questions about various techniques.

In you question about using the skew, are you talking about using it on a bowl or a spindle? Same question about the shear scraping technique? Never use a skew on a face grain turning (bowl) except if using it as a NRS (negative rake scraper). And, don't shear on spindle t


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