# Requesting tips on joining boards for table top



## Terry McManus (Aug 5, 2007)

G'day. I am new to the craft and have been reading a bunch and am about to start my first project.

One of the questions that I have is the joining of boards to make a table top. I have some 3/4" red oak that I need join. I've read about simple butt joins, t&g joins, biscuit joins. But my experience with wood to date has been with nails and screws.

Can you achieve a lasting join if you have true edges and just use glue....a straight butt join? Or would you use some type of fastener?

Thanks,
Terry McManus


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## formula462 (Dec 9, 2006)

yes,a simple glue up with proper clamping pressure will do fine. make sure when the top is fastened to the base you allow for movement


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

*joining boards*

All other methods now superceded by pocket holes. all you need is the Kreg jig costing a few $.
I admitto being a fervent convert.
Have a look at the videos on the Kreg site or on utube.
johnep


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

*Table top*

I also am a member of the PSLA (pocket screw lovers army) but I would hessitate using them for a table top. All those holes visible from underneath (or the outline of the plugs if you go that route) would detract from the look of the finished project in my eyes. Glue only is perfectly acceptable for long grain to long grain joints but biscuits or stopped splines sure do make the glue up much easier.

My $.02

Ed


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A butt edge glue up *without* biscuits, splines, and most definitely pocket screws, is the way to go. Using cauls when clamping will help insure an even glue up. Try not to make any of the series too wide. 

Biscuits do not insure alignment, and many of the applications suggested for pocket screws I don't agree with. I hate to speak my mind, but I like to tell it like it is (at least the way I see it). Some applications that have quickie fixes aren't always the best way to proceed.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

I have 1/100 (or less) the knowledge and experience of Cabinetman but I agree with him.

On the pic, you can see a coffee table that I made in Japan some 10 years ago and it moved from Japan - to Israel -to Poland...simple butt joint...still, it's difficult to see where is the glue line...

niki


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## Nancy Laird (May 7, 2007)

If you have a good jointer that can do a good job, butt joints with glue and clamping is probably the best way to go--with biscuits or splines if you so desire. I would NOT try to glue up a tabletop with pocket screws--I wouldn't like the underside of a tabletop to look like Swiss cheese, and there is ALWAYS the possibility of the screw taking a wrong turn and penetrating the top. Pocket holes have their place, but not, IMHO, on a tabletop glue-up. 

Nancy


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

*joining boards*

Perhaps I have been a bit too enthusiastic re pocket holes, but I do not have a jointer, router, table saw, or morticer.

thus if I don't use pocket screws then would have to screw on batten underneath or use metal straps.

questioner did say he was new to woodworking and therefore may have few tools. If he has to buy a router, jointer etc, then may as well buy the table in the first place as likely to be cheaper.
johnep


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## Terry McManus (Aug 5, 2007)

Wow, this is some qood stuff!

formula462, by sufficient pressure, if I have a series of clamps, evenly distributed along the clamps what would sufficient pressure be?

Johnep, thanks for the pointing to the Kreg site.

I have one board that I plan on planing up and cross cutting, using a router to smooth the edge before gluing (I do not have a jointer).

edp, long grain to long grain...taking the crosscut sections and gluing along the edges that were not crosscut....is this long grain to long grain?

Nancy, you mention a good jointer...do you have success using a table mounted router to smooth the edges?

Cabinetman...I'm planning on four sections of app eight inch width(three joins) gluing at the same time....two wide or would you do one join at a time? I just did a search on the web for 'caul' and 

Niki, I can't see the joins....which is what we're after.....

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the help. I am writing this in Africa where I am away from my project. It gives me a lot of time to think up questions, but not much time to research. When I get back to the project I find I have a lot of questions when I get ready for the next step. 

Terry McManus


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

*Terry*

Yeah you got it right, placing the boards side by side so that the grain is running in the same direction is "long grain to long grain".
If you are going to use a router as your jointer, might I suggest using a hand held router and a straight edge clamped to the board as a guide. Route an edge, place this against teh rip fence on the tablesaw and cut the other edge paralell.

Ed

p.s. the Kreg pocket screws are a great assett for joining the apron to the legs for your table.


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## formula462 (Dec 9, 2006)

sufficient pressure will be when you get an even glue squeeze out from the joints and as stated use cauls to hold the work flat


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Folowing comment about 'swiss cheese' I decided to experiment with filling pocket holes. first I cut some 3/8" dowel and this worked fine, then tried wood filler.

If pocket holes underneath a table then a casual glance would be unlikely to notice. If your guests are regularly under the table for whatever reason, then yes pocket holes may be seen even if filled.

Unless your guest is an experienced woodworker, not likely to cause any comment.

Today used pocket holes to make a T beam under a sagging shelf. would have been very difficult to do any other way.
johnep


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## formula462 (Dec 9, 2006)

they do make plugs specifically for the pocket hole,looks pretty good as far as a pocket hole goes....


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

Glue and butt, it's been done for a few hundred years (with FAR less superior glues than we have now, bone glue, rosins...) I do some resto work on 150 yr old+ furniture, with proper _joinery _you *still *cannot take it apart without breaking wood fibers . Good joint, "dry wood",clamped well it will outlast you...and your heirs. I am not even going to reread this thread and comment on any other suggestions (pocket holes?)


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Ah Yes. methods of construction should be for the type of product you are producing. For fine heirloom quality furniture, then nothing but fancy dovetails etc. However, being a philistine and completely non artistic I could never aspire to the quality of work shown on this site.

I can only produce practical functional items and previous joints have been made with angle brackets or end screws. Hence, to me, pocket screws are a revolution.

each to their own.
johnep


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I did not mean for my post to sound snide and directed at any one in particular. I could have been more pleasant in my response. I had a bad day yesterday, ever have one of those ? Terry is new to woodworking and should stick to the basics/tried and true for the first project. We who have been at it a little while get caught up in the woodworking tool catalogs that get foisted on us and get a little "tool happy" at times :huh:. Most often, but not always, the simpler the better. I have seen some mighty fine table top joints made with a hand plane, glue, and a 1/2 dozen clamps. :thumbsup: Contrary to popular belief it does not take $20,000 worth of tools to make a $200 table :laughing:.


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## atogrf1 (Jul 9, 2007)

A glue joint, when done properly, is definitely the best way. However, having said that, and having been a pocket hole fan, I MUST tell you to go out and buy a Festool Domino. You can do everything you want with that and you might not even need glue with the precision of that machine. All roads lead to the Domino now.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Daren

I must agree with you in two things...

Yes, everybody has "one of those days" and sometimes it's reflected at home or in the forum...:smile: 

And yes, it does not take $20,000 to make a table... 

My "heavy machinery" includes Table saw and Router (no planer, jointer, band saw, radial arm saw) and still I could make the unit in the pic (3 separate units) and I don't have Panel raising router bit nor strong enough router to turn it.

Terry
The glue-line of the coffee table top on the pic above was made first on the table saw and then refined with 1 Meter (1 Yard) of #60 sanding paper stick to an L shape, and sanding till I got tight fit.

You said that you have a router so it's easier and quicker to do it with a straight edge and you get 100% fit every time or as I call it "Idiot proof method" (because I know myself).

I will post a new post titled "Glue line with hand held router", the idea is not new at all, I just improved it for easy positioning of the straight edge.

Regards
niki


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Niki is that your work? Very impressive. Thanks for posting the pictures we like that.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Thank you so much TexasTimber

I posted it just to re-enforce Daren's opinion that you don't need a $20,000 equipment to make it.

If you noticed the Bonsai...it's of plastic:blush: ...but the planter is made of wood:thumbsup: 

niki


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

niki said:


> I posted it just to re-enforce Daren's opinion that you don't need a $20,000 equipment to make it.
> 
> 
> niki


You made the point quite well :thumbsup:, thanks for the pictures. "_My "heavy machinery" includes Table saw and Router (no planer, jointer, band saw, radial arm saw) and still I could make the unit in the pic (3 separate units) and I don't have Panel raising router bit nor strong enough router to turn it_" .

You of course realize you are greatly outnumbered in the woodworking community by people with far less talent and far more tools. And it is futile to dare even speak of the fact that newest tool they see in a woodworking magazine/catalog is not going to make them "better". I cannot argue with faster (in some cases though, I have seen guys scratch their head longer with a tool they don't know how to use...in the mean time my project is done, and usually well) 

But sometimes faster is not better, especially for the hobbiest. It is not always to destination but the journey that is important. I know people who happily spend 2 weeks on a project that _could_ have been done in less time, but it is their hobby, why rush? Enjoy the shop time and get your head on straight. We are a mixed bag, some guys/gals HAVE to produce X amount every month because that is how they eat, professional woodworking. It turns me off when a newby just getting started asks a question on a forum like this and is immediately swamped with a $5000 shopping list of things he HAS TO to have or he just can't do anything right. I think that is detrimental, may even scare some off from the hobby.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Daren said:


> It turns me off when a newby just getting started asks a question on a forum like this and is immediately swamped with a $5000 shopping list of things he HAS TO to have or he just can't do anything right.



Daren - I agree with you 100%. You would be surprised what can be made with minimal tools. It's learning the craft from page one.

Just for fun, I'm posting the original woodcutting machine that you didn't have to buy.
.


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## bigdogpc (Aug 9, 2007)

Many fine answers here. Those applying the KISS method are most likely the best of the bunch. There's a lot of FINE stuff been built with minmal tooling and marginal glues.


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## jacksimpk (Jul 27, 2007)

The key thing is to get a nice match on the edges. Straight edges will meet the whole way and allow the glue to join them. As long as you can get good meeting edges you get good glue and good joint. Pocket holes / dowels / biscuits / superglue - none of that will give you good meeting edges. In terms of hand tools you can get good edges from a plane that has a long base, you can use a joiner, some router tables will work (usually the fences are too small). Before I had a joiner I would have clamped (screwed really) the pieces to a piece of plywood with a nice straight edge. Run the edge of the plywood against your table saw fence and the straight edge will be transmitted to the oak you've got the plywood screwed to. Once you have one good edge flip it unscrew and do the other side. This method has its problems you don't get a perfect edge from a saw fence and you should probably tune your fence up before you try it. also you end up cutting upside down cause you don't want screw holes in your table top. I used to be able to get edges good enough for gluing. Definately try on scrap first.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi All
Very nice work Niki.

Terry: I am not knowing what kind of wood you are using, and whether or not you will experience cupping of the wood after you put it into the house. If the grain has any kind of curve at all, and most wood does, don't forget to alternate the boards to allow for planing to a flat surface. Beyond that, all the rest of the advice sounds pretty good.

Welcome to the forum

Best Regards

Gerry


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## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

*edge joint for table top*

I would lay out the boards side by side and pick the grain match you like, then mark each joint with an o and the other with an I for inside and out side run the o's away from the fence and the I's toward the fence. This will compensate for any slight misalinement , the edges will match. glue joint is stronger than the wood, would not use polyutherine glue , use white or yellow glue. poly will break in glue joint. I use a jointer because I own one and believe its the fastest and easiest way other than a #7 or *8 jointer plane. but if a hand plane is not tuned up properly and sharpened properly it's just a piece of junk or for display only.


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

I'd agree that simple glue joints are the best approach for someone relatively new to the hobby. The pocket hole method can lead to misalignment by height of the boards (i.e. - the top of one board may be higher/lower than the one next to it.) It's part of the learning curve of using pocket holes. But for future refrence, the pocket hole method will prove invaluable in other applications, and in my opinion it's one of the most "cost-effective" things you can get. By that I mean it's absolutely great in some applications, such as making face frames for cabinets - and they don't cost that much. But it's something you can investigaste after learning the basic methods.

Someone mention the Festool thing. I've got nothing against them, but they're around $1000+. Clearly something someone just getting started doesn't need. At the outset your money is better spent on more basic tools.

One thing I also do in joining boards for table tops is to alternate the growth ring pattern of the boards. By that I mean look at the ends of the boards and notice the growth ring pattern. Are the growth ring lines curving toward the top or bottom of the board? Aletrnate them in opposing directions. The reason being is that boards may tend to "cup" - curl up on the edges toward the middle across the width of the board. By putting them in opposing directions they will offset each other in their pulling effect. Now maybe I'm getting too esoteric about this, and others may add their comments on this. I say it because I once made a long dresser top out of 3 wide ash boards and it started to cup a little because I didn't alternate them. And it may also be that I'm just full of it....I always allow that possibility in my life.




And Niki....I just noticed you're in "Poland." You mean Poland the country? All 4 of my grandparents came over on the boat from the Krakow area. I'm a pure-bred!

Or maybe you meant Poland, Kentucky.....I dunno.


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## Terry McManus (Aug 5, 2007)

*Thank you all for your help!!!!!!!*

:no: It has been a good number of days since I have asked the questions below and I just wanted to give some feedback on the project that progressed with a great deal of assistance from all of you.






















To make this cabinet, I used the following techniques:

dado joinery
pocket joinery
butt joinery
biscuit joinery
plus a couple of techniques with the router....

When I first posted the below, I was really confused as to how to tackle this project (my first). Your input was invaluable.

Thank you!

Terry McManus

p.s. I'm not sure if the images are going to come through, so I'll paste the url to where I've stored the images.

http://www.pbase.com/terry2_mcmanus/cabinet






Terry McManus said:


> G'day. I am new to the craft and have been reading a bunch and am about to start my first project.
> 
> One of the questions that I have is the joining of boards to make a table top. I have some 3/4" red oak that I need join. I've read about simple butt joins, t&g joins, biscuit joins. But my experience with wood to date has been with nails and screws.
> 
> ...


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

Daren - you said:



> And it is futile to dare even speak of the fact that newest tool they see in a woodworking magazine/catalog is not going to make them "better".


Reminds me of playing golf and the golf club mfrs. I've got a putter thatI bought used for about $5. And I've gotten pretty darn good with it, based a lot on the fact that I just seem to have the "eye" to read a green and tell how the ball's going to move. My best 9 hole score is 38, or 2 over par, which isn't too shabby.

Each year golf club mfrs. come out with the "greatest yet" clubs which some golfers are suckers for and will spend hundreds for. I've never really looked it up, but I'm sure it's quite easy to spend $100 per year on the newest putters. Meanwhile I'm still using my $5 one which I've had for about 12 years now.

Yup....there are tools that will make processes go quicker as you said. But learning the basics and sound work habits are far more essential to success.


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## Daveb (May 3, 2007)

Your project looks great! very impressive.

I do not have a joiner or room for one. I cut my boards to approximate width on the table saw, then run each edge through one more time taking just a hair off. This gives me a pretty good edge with minimal saw marks. If the blade is a good blade and set to 90 degrees, it gives decent glue joints for my needs. But not as good as a joiner. I know some would scoff at this approach. I am not skilled enough with the hand planes I have to consider buying a hand joiner plane. I'd just create a disaster.

Follow-up question:
I do have a router, table and a straight bit, would I get a better edge with this method? I've always assumed there would be more variability with the router. What do others think?


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Terry
It looks fantastic

I tried a few joinery methods at the beginning but, slowly, slowly reduced the choices to the ones that works the best for me. It does not mean the fastest method but the method that I get the best accuracy.
For example, to joint boards for panel gluing, I use a straight edge with hand held router and if the boards are too narrow, the router table (no, not the split fence method).

For carcasses and frames (except 45° frame), I use mostly dowels because I developed a method to drill the dowel holes on the router table with accuracy of 99.99%.

Lately, I started to used floating tenons, again, a method used on the router table with "rolling" sled that gives me the same accuracy as the doweling method.

Boardman
I didn't know that you have "Poland" in Kentucky....
If you come to Poland, you can get a Polish nationality but....don't...it's still too early....after the 40 years of "mama Russia", not everything changed to "Democracy" but, they are working on it...:smile: 

David
There is a method to joint on the router table (split fence method) but it never worked well for me and I reverted to the more "idiot proof" method of straight edge and hand held router that gives me 100% success every time.

niki


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## Terry McManus (Aug 5, 2007)

David,
For the butt joints, I used the technique you describe: edge cuts with the table saw. I tried using my router table with the fence, but was unable to get a trim that matched the table saw.
Niki, can you share a little on your router techniques. This is a fascinating tool, but I'm finding I don't have the experience.

Terry


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

Terry - while we were all jabbering away, you went did a nice job on the table!


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Terry

Have a look in the "Joinery" forum

Regards
niki


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## wood-n-things (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm going to ask another question in conjunction with this conversation if I may.

What are cauls? I used my biscuit joiner today and joined 2 pieces of cedar (western red) long grain to long grain. After my glue up and applying the clamps it immediatley bowed/cupped in the middle along the glue line.
Yep i jointed and and all the other stuff I'm supposed to do. Is it due to the biscuits?

What is the proper way to use cauls?

I just placed another bar clamp over the top, placed some wax paper down and weighted the center down to take out the cupping. Used the wax paper so the squeeze out I couldn't reach wouldn't glue up what i didn't want glued...

Thanks for any help.


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

Cauls are basically clamps that go across the width of the two pieces of wood being joinedto keep them flat. I made them from 2 pieces of that rectangular tubing you see - the ones with the holes drilled in all 4 sides. One on top, one on the bottom, then drop bolts thru the holes of one, thru the other, and then tighten with a nut. The same waxed paper under the.

Pipe or bar clamps should be alternated - that is, say 2 on the bottom, and 2 on the top. That exerts equal pressure upward and downward and will keep pieces from raising/lowering along the glue line. When the threaded part of a clamp, the part that exerts the pressure on the boards, doesn't strke the exact center of the thickness of the board, it causes the glue line to raise or lower, depending on if the threaded part is above or below the center of the board thickness.


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## wood-n-things (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks for the prompt and professional :thumbsup: advice. I will be going into town early next week and I will get some of the Metal pipes/posts you are referring too. Can't have enough clamps or clamping devices.

I felt rather silly asking but had not encountered it before. Thanks again.

Mike


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## Boardman (Sep 9, 2007)

I got them at my local home improvement chain. Home Depot should probably have them too.


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## jacksimpk (Jul 27, 2007)

Daveb said:


> Your project looks great! very impressive.
> 
> I do not have a joiner or room for one. I cut my boards to approximate width on the table saw, then run each edge through one more time taking just a hair off. This gives me a pretty good edge with minimal saw marks. If the blade is a good blade and set to 90 degrees, it gives decent glue joints for my needs. But not as good as a joiner. I know some would scoff at this approach. I am not skilled enough with the hand planes I have to consider buying a hand joiner plane. I'd just create a disaster.
> 
> ...


Dave - Niki's advise is spot on, after your question above. The problem with the Table saw method you describe is what if the side your running against the fence is not straight? Then the side you cut with the blade won't be straight either. Niki is advocating you clamp a straight edge on the board and run your router against it. This will transmit the straight edge to the board. The method is very solid. Once you get used to it fairly quick as well. The only benefit a joiner gives you over this is speed. Joining on a joiner is a lot faster is all. And with a wide joiner you can "face" join and flatten out cups etc. This is nice but as with everything else..... plenty of other ways to do it.


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