# Evening uneven boards



## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

I've never had a ton of luck joining boards. I've got a HF biscuit joiner, but despite my best efforts, there is _always_ a ridge between two joined boards. Looking at the reviews at some of the name brand biscuit joiners, it looks like most of those people are having the same problem, so I don't know that i want to throw money at this and see no improvement. But anyways...

I recently bought some rough sawn eastern red cedar, planed them down to 3/4" and joined them into a 24" board. They look great, but the ridges are there at the joints. The only thing I know to do about this is to sand it down. But this takes a LOT of sanding with my simple orbital, even using 60 grit. 

Is there a better way that I should be doing this?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Do you mean there is something created by the biscuit jointer holding the joint apart? Often a biscuit joiner will have a splinter at the end of the cut you need to remove with a sharp knife. This may be causing your ridge. If you mean the boards are not aliened well there is enough slack in the biscuit joint to cause the glueup to be uneven. You still have to use a block of wood and a hammer and drive the boards down flat. If it's very much you may not be holding the biscuit jointer down well enough when making the cut.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

The joint is tight. It's just uneven with the adjacent board. I'll attach an extreme closeup to show the problem. I can't deny that I might be using the joiner wrong, but I do believe I adjusted it correctly to the width of the boards and I was holding it down pretty tight.

But my question today is what is the best way to fix the problem now that the boards are joined. I've looked at hand-held electric planers. It sounds like they might do the trick, but I've got no experience with these.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Hand plane would be just as quick as a power plane for your application.
In the future;
Make sure you are registering the biscuit slots from the same surface on all boards when you cut the slots. The slots do not need to be perfectly centered in the boards.


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## michmark4 (Nov 7, 2020)

A nicely sharpened jack plane or card scraper would be the best way to remove the ridges. An electric planer would be too aggressive for this and I think would cause more problems. Check out this Youtube about gluing up panels


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Your picture shows a poor fitting joint. There should be no rough edges and the joint should have no gap. This is a jointer usage problem.

The ridge is another problem. When I use a biscuit cutter I place the top side of each board down on the table. Cut all biscuit holes this way. This procedure should eliminate any height differences between boards. 

George


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

GeorgeC said:


> the joint should have no gap.


George, I believe what you perceive as a gap, is actually the shadow from the higher edge.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

GeorgeC said:


> Your picture shows a poor fitting joint. There should be no rough edges and the joint should have no gap. This is a jointer usage problem.


Bear in mind that this is zoomed WAY in. If I'd placed a quarter in the photo, it would fill half of the frame. Zoom in close enough on anything and it'll ultimately look rough. Also, there is no gap between the boards. Just the height difference, which is thinner than a credit card.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

Dave McCann said:


> George, I believe what you perceive as a gap, is actually the shadow from the higher edge.


That's right. I placed a single bulb low in order to make clear that there was a height difference.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

michmark4 said:


> A nicely sharpened jack plane or card scraper would be the best way to remove the ridges. An electric planer would be too aggressive for this and I think would cause more problems. Check out this Youtube about gluing up panels
> 
> I was actually completely unaware of card scrapers until recently. I'm going to have to look more into that..


I'm getting an error when I try to play that video


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think I agree with George, the joint doesn't appear to be well fitted. It's possible the fence may be just a tiny bit out of square and if you put both of the long edges together the other side could have a gap. May just be a hair line gap but that is a lot for wood. The glue joint should pretty much disappear.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

enchant said:


> I've never had a ton of luck joining boards. I*'ve got a HF biscuit joiner,* but despite my best efforts, there is _always_ a ridge between two joined boards. Looking at the reviews at some of the name brand biscuit joiners, it looks like most of those people are having the same problem, so I don't know that i want to throw money at this and see no improvement. But anyways...
> 
> I recently bought some rough sawn eastern red cedar, *planed them down to 3/4" and joined them into a 24" board.* They look great, but the ridges are there at the joints. The only thing I know to do about this is to sand it down. But this takes a LOT of sanding with my simple orbital, even using 60 grit.
> 
> ...


Let's distinguish between the biscuit jointer and a stationary jointer, so we know which one you are referring to. I assume it's your HF biscuit jointer....? I will use both terms in my explanation:

A "proper" joint requires that both edges be straight and square to their faces AND of equal thickness.
Lacking any one of those will cause a poor fitting joint.
You can prepare the boards correctly by checking them with a combination square and a long straight edge as you joint them on the *stationary jointer,* AND make certain the fence on the *jointer *is square to the tables.
Your issue as shown, is either of two things:
They are not of equal thickness OR they are not properly aligned when they are glued together.
Don't use the* biscuit jointer* IF it's are causing mis-aignment as shown.
Using a *stationary jointer/planer* requires practice and skill so that may also be your issue.
The 24" long boards you mention should not be an issue even with a short bed jointer, BUT it could be if proper technique is not used.
If a board has a curved edge to start with, it's best to sight down and determine this, here's the "cure":
Use a hand plane to just plane off a slight amount from either end until the boards checks out as having a straight edge OR
use the jointer to do the same thing by working in partially from either end. This is my method.
Make a properly fitting panel joint is not the "easiest" thing to do, especially for a beginning woodworker, lots of variables to deal with.
If you have any more questions, we can help. 

Using a biscuit jointer is a bit tricky. 
I removed the factory fence from mine and just use the wider base flat on the bench top as the reference. Both boards must be equal thickness and the biscuits should be the same distance down from the top to get a perfect joint. They are very specific about that be the same. Here's a whole detailed explanation:








Biscuit joiner project for a buddy


So Walt the computer whiz and budding woodworker calls up and says "Hey, you got a biscuit joiner?" ....Yup, Never used it though. .... "Bring it over, I've got a project I need it for." ....OK, I'll be there shortly and I'll bring the computer with no sound... "see Ya." Actually I brought over...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

enchant said:


> That's right. I placed a single bulb low in order to make clear that there was a height difference.


What I am seeing is not a shadow. It is a rough looking joint.

I forgot to mention of the biscuit tool. I not only place the top of the board down, I also run the biscuit tool on the table. this ensures that the biscuit slot is always a constant distance from the top of the board.

George


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

They say it's a poor craftsman that blames the tools, but I suspect that the HFT joiner is your issue. If those boards are the same thickness, the edges are square to the surfaces, you're registering the jointer to the same faces, and holding the jointer tightly against the face and the edge, the only variable left is the tool itself.

I've made do with a number of HFT tools in the past and I find that some have play and slop that is just not suitable for fine work. if the cutter head has any medial play in it (like it riding up or down on its bearing), that's likely your problem. If the thing is rock solid, the only thing left is how you are holding it. A biscuit jointer seems foolproof to use, but I've certainly messed up my joinery by going too fast and not checking that I had a good square fit.

One question is whether the your cuts always result in this misalignment, and if so, is it always in the same direction? Do you make all the cuts on one board and then follow it up with cuts on the other, or do you alternate?


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## shoot summ (Feb 21, 2014)

A biscuit joiner isn't going to keep the surfaces flat. There is too much play in the biscuits.

Some folks swear by the Festool Domino for this purpose, it is a $1000+ machine...

You need to adjust the boards as you glue them up, and use cauls to keep the surface flat. You might try only one glue seam at a time to give you more time to adjust the joint.

For those areas that aren't perfect a hand plane makes quick work of the "step".


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

"Is there a better way that I should be doing this?"
There is no good reason to use a biscuit jointer when joining the edges of two boards, make yourself some cauls and use them to keep the surface of the boards even while joining only two boards at a time, then join the sets of two, etc. Biscuits add no strength to a good glue joint and usually do more harm than good in my opinion, however to each their own.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

I can't say enough how much I appreciate all of the time that everyone is spending helping me make better joints, but the truth is that I almost never do this. Last time was probably over five years ago. It may be another five before I do it again. My only real need right now is the best way to fix the mis-aligned boards. I've ordered a card scraper and looking around to see if I have what I'll need to sharpen it.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

FrankC said:


> "Is there a better way that I should be doing this?"
> There is no good reason to use a biscuit jointer when joining the edges of two boards, make yourself some cauls and use them to keep the surface of the boards even while joining only two boards at a time, then join the sets of two, etc. Biscuits add no strength to a good glue joint and usually do more harm than good in my opinion, however to each their own.


Given how "well" they're working for me, I'd have to agree with that. "cauls" is another woodworking technology that I'm unfamiliar with. I'd like to do some research on that.


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## RBhoffmann (Dec 12, 2020)

GeorgeC said:


> What I am seeing is not a shadow. It is a rough looking joint.
> 
> I forgot to mention of the biscuit tool. I not only place the top of the board down, I also run the biscuit tool on the table. this ensures that the biscuit slot is always a constant distance from the top of the board.
> 
> George


 Hm, HF tool AND not using the fence to register the tool to the board? Sounds like a couple of problems. I know that many HF tools are not made to tight tolerances and can have some slop in them, but most often you can learn those idiosyncrasies and develop a style to get good results (not great though). If you are using the table as a means to get a consistent slot - I think that is a big part of the problem as there are so many things that could interfere with alignment of the tool to the board face with this method. Biscuits should be snug and not fall out if the board is tipped on edge (with biscuits on the down side) and tapped lightly. If the fall out - slot is too big and you probably can't fix that.

So, Use the tool (and not the table), learn about and correct the variances in the tool (loose slides, springy fence, tilted blade, etc.) or get a better biscuit joiner (I use a Ryobi - $120 at HD).

Good luck!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

RBhoffmann said:


> Hm, HF tool AND not using the fence to register the tool to the board? Sounds like a couple of problems. I know that many HF tools are not made to tight tolerances and can have some slop in them, but most often you can learn those idiosyncrasies and develop a style to get good results (not great though). If you are using the table as a means to get a consistent slot - I think that is a big part of the problem as there are so many things that could interfere with alignment of the tool to the board face with this method. Biscuits should be snug and not fall out if the board is tipped on edge (with biscuits on the down side) and tapped lightly. If the fall out - slot is too big and you probably can't fix that.
> 
> So, Use the tool (and not the table), learn about and correct the variances in the tool (loose slides, springy fence, tilted blade, etc.) or get a better biscuit joiner (I use a Ryobi - $120 at HD).
> 
> Good luck!


You have a complete right to your opinion, but as some one who has actually used the table as the reference, it does work. The thread I posted explains how and why and includes a video of a woodworker doing the same. Simply by removing the smaller table on the biscuit jointer and using the larger base, at least on my Dewalt, it gave me more surface to register on:









The video:


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Well, I just learned something new. Several things actually.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Simply by removing the smaller table on the biscuit jointer and using the larger base, at least on my DEwalt, gave me more surface to register on


My joining project is done, but I'm intrigued by the concept (don't use the top plate) and I'm going to give that method a try on some scrap wood.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

enchant said:


> Given how "well" they're working for me, I'd have to agree with that. "cauls" is another woodworking technology that I'm unfamiliar with. I'd like to do some research on that.


Reading Frank's post made me think ...... " I'll bet our original poster has never heard of "cauls"." And he probably doesn't have enough clamps to use them properly either.

The OP wants to fix the offset edges. Using a small block plane which is typically available, would work fine. Then sanding with a ROS would finish it off. It's Cedar and that will sand easily. Taking very fine shavings will be required because Cedar is prone to splitting along it's length.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

If you've never worked with a scraper, before you start you should be aware they work best on very hard woods. Maple and white oak scrape well. Cherry and walnut scrape ok. Eastern red cedar is way too soft to scrape cleanly. A sharp scraper burr will cleanly smooth the wildest, most contrary grain but is fragile and has a short working life compared to a plane blade. We could have a long and lively discussion on flattening a surface with a hand plane. The larger the plane, the more demanding it will be since it will skate over the slightest hollow. Woodnthings suggested a block plane, and this is a less frustrating tool to use when you are first learning. Anyone who works with wood is well served by learning to use a hand plane.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

JohnGi said:


> Eastern red cedar is way too soft to scrape cleanly. A sharp scraper burr will cleanly smooth the wildest, most contrary grain but is fragile and has a short working life compared to a plane blade. We could have a long and lively discussion on flattening a surface with a hand plane. The larger the plane, the more demanding it will be since it will skate over the slightest hollow. Woodnthings suggested a block plane, and this is a less frustrating tool to use when you are first learning. Anyone who works with wood is well served by learning to use a hand plane.


Thanks for that. I do have a block plane. I think I might have purchased it 30 years ago and I've never been able to use it. It might not be a great plane, it's highly likely that it's in serious need of sharpening, and it's absolutely certain that I don't know how to use it correctly. I see videos of guys pushing a plane along a wood surface, peeling up a thin shaving of wood with the ease that I spread mayo on a slice of bread. When I do it, it simply stops hard. I keep retracting the blade, but it makes no difference. It's been one of these things that I've been meaning to learn for decades, but I've just never had that great a need for it. I'd love to hand my plane to a skilled craftsman and have him tell me if this has anything to do with it or if it's all me.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

@enchant - I do a lot of edge banding and almost always there's some spot that doesn't come out perfectly flush.
a scraper is the ideal tool - you can start/stop anywhere along the line, more/less pressure, etc to get a perfectly flush fit.

now - practice on some scrap first - the angle you hold it at and also keeping it sharp are important.


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## GCTony (Apr 5, 2018)

TomCT2 said:


> @enchant - I do a lot of edge banding and almost always there's some spot that doesn't come out perfectly flush.
> a scraper is the ideal tool -* you can start/stop anywhere along the line, more/less pressure, etc* to get a perfectly flush fit.
> 
> now - practice on some scrap first - the angle you hold it at and also keeping it sharp are important.


Never once did I think of using a scraper on edge banding. This is now added to my bag of tricks, THANKS!

The first time I tried to flatten a top with a hand plane was the first time I discovered the true meaning of "sharp". I also learned that chisels or planes out of the box isn't close to being "sharp". Using a hand plane became a joy when I learned how to sharpen irons.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

ayup. it's a good approach - the pressure applied controls the "depth of scrape" - going real light as you get to level....

takes time - scrapers do not remove much in a pass - but the control is exquisite.
takes a lot less time that scrapping the piece and starting over....fer'sure.

by the time you get the plane "set" right, you've a bunch of divots to work out.... I've got a cute little 4" block plane - with the blade I hone down to 4000 grit, but it still requires far too much "set up" to flush a 3" (example) long mis-flush.
and heaven help if the grain on the surface and the banding counter run....

not sure about the idea that cedar is too soft - I've done soft popular using a chisel with out big issues. even if it raises some fuzz, 300-400 grit sandpaper should smooth that out right quick.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

If I was tasked with evening out the top I would use my belt sander across the grain, then finishing it with a ROS.


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

FrankC said:


> If I was tasked with evening out the top I would use my belt sander across the grain, then finishing it with a ROS.


That is actually exactly what I did. I didn't want to mention that here, because I figured everyone would yell at me. It made quick work of the job. 120 grit belt followed by 120 grit ROS followed by 220 ROS.


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## _Ogre (Feb 1, 2013)

answered before i read to the end 😬
my suggestion exactly


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I join a lot of stuff with just glue and usually get the same gap which is why I keep my planes nice and sharp and only take off very thin layers at a time. Sometimes, but not always I'll use a scrub plane with just a tiny bit of the blade sticking out and knock down the gaps going across the grain and finish up with the grain with a smoothing plane..
That's usually when I'm using 2x pine boards..
Cedar is a soft wood and easy to plane, but be careful around knots.. Did you say cedar or do I have cedar on the brain tonight?


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

Yes, it's eastern red cedar.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

enchant said:


> Thanks for that. I do have a block plane. I think I might have purchased it 30 years ago and I've never been able to use it. It might not be a great plane, it's highly likely that it's in serious need of sharpening, and it's absolutely certain that I don't know how to use it correctly. I see videos of guys pushing a plane along a wood surface, peeling up a thin shaving of wood with the ease that I spread mayo on a slice of bread. When I do it, it simply stops hard. I keep retracting the blade, but it makes no difference. It's been one of these things that I've been meaning to learn for decades, but I've just never had that great a need for it. I'd love to hand my plane to a skilled craftsman and have him tell me if this has anything to do with it or if it's all me.


Regarding your block plane, The blade is only 1 1/4" wide so it won't be difficult to sharpen..... less metal to remove, but harder to control .... possibly. A plane blade guide would be best for a novice because it will hold the blade at a constant angle. I'd get one!


https://www.amazon.com/ATLIN-Honing-Guide-Chisels-Planer/dp/B07C9X3F98/



Cedar knots are as hard as Titainium! They can only be sanded, planing just won't work. I sided my entire house is in shiplap Cedar, so I know from experience:


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

Like I said, I've had my block plane for a long time. It's likely a very bad plane. Possibly came in the bottom of a box of cereal. I watched a video where a girl showed the proper way to use a block plane. The one that she used had a knob at the back to control depth and levers at the front to control the angle. Mine doesn't have these. Are these necessary and an indication that my plane is a POS? Or is a plane like a hammer in that pretty much any one of them can do the job correctly, given the proper skill level (and properly sharpened blade)?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

enchant said:


> Like I said, I've had my block plane for a long time. It's likely a very bad plane. Possibly came in the bottom of a box of cereal. I watched a video where a girl showed the proper way to use a block plane. The one that she used had a knob at the back to control depth and levers at the front to control the angle. Mine doesn't have these. Are these necessary and an indication that my plane is a POS? Or is a plane like a hammer in that pretty much any one of them can do the job correctly, given the proper skill level (and properly sharpened blade)?


Yah, those cereal box planes are junk. I have one. It's blue and red. The red means stay away. BUT, a plane is just a device that holds a sharp blade at a certain angle and the best Japanese planes made of the finest hardwood do exactly that, not much more. Your's is just difficult to adjust for depth and blade position, just like the Japanese versions, you strike the iron with a hardwood dowel or a brass hammer for adjustments. If you can get the blade sharp, it can be made to work, BUT I'd get a better one, like this one which has two adjustment knobs:


https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-12-960-Contractor-Grade-Angle/dp/B0000223QX/



A good block plane will serve you for a lifetime and you'll use it for things you had never imagined.
I used mine to plane down a wedge shaped piece flush with the side of my newly made chisel storage box. The corner just split away and needed an invisible "repair":


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## enchant (Dec 16, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> The red means stay away.














woodnthings said:


> BUT I'd get a better one, like this one which has two adjustment knobs:
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-12-960-Contractor-Grade-Angle/dp/B0000223QX/
> ...


Order placed. Thanks!


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

FrankC said:


> If I was tasked with evening out the top I would use my belt sander across the grain, then finishing it with a ROS.


I'm a belt sander user, no scraper in my shop except for getting glue of panels.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

enchant said:


> I've never had a ton of luck joining boards. I've got a HF biscuit joiner, but despite my best efforts, there is _always_ a ridge between two joined boards. Looking at the reviews at some of the name brand biscuit joiners, it looks like most of those people are having the same problem, so I don't know that i want to throw money at this and see no improvement. But anyways...
> 
> I recently bought some rough sawn eastern red cedar, planed them down to 3/4" and joined them into a 24" board. They look great, but the ridges are there at the joints. The only thing I know to do about this is to sand it down. But this takes a LOT of sanding with my simple orbital, even using 60 grit.
> 
> Is there a better way that I should be doing this?


Use cauls when doing glue ups. I like to use a hardwood of about 2"x3" with 2" being the face. Kiss the outside of the face ends with a plane so that when clamped, slightly more pressure is placed on the center. Make sure you always keep them coated in wax so they do not stick to glue. One goes above the work being glued, one below. The spacing can vary but I usually put one set near each end, then spaced every 12-16". When you glue your pieces up, before clamping, put the cauls on with clamps applying light clamping pressure. Now edge clamp the boards together. Finally tighten the clamping cauls. You may need to tap a spot or two between with a mallet. If the edges are properly prepared there is no need for biscuits, they offer no additional integrity, you should have a perfectly flat panel.


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