# A pair of 7's



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Flea market find, a No. 7 in good condition, other than some rust. I thought $40.00 was reasonable, offered $30.00 and he threw in an older Craftsman dual action sander.... which ran but didn't have any "action" for an additional $5.00...Oh well. 
Here's the restore, I used Evapo Rust, but wasn't that impressed. I wire brushed the iron parts. The chip breaker says "Bailey's, Patent, Dec 24th 1867. There is also the name Victory USA on the blade. There is no name on the body of the plane, only the No. 7, so I don't really know what it is. The body is much thinner than the Bailey No. 7 which I already owned.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*more pictures*

The rust came off pretty well.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the other No 7*

The pair of 7's and another Stanley and an extra handle. The new one is on top, the one I had on the bottom.

In the second photo the new one is on the left, the one I had on the right.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Nice save! :thumbsup:

Didn't care for the Evapo Rust? :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Not really*

I have used Muratic acid for rust removal, and that stuff is Nuclear. So I don't have much patience for waiting for something to happen. It worked OK, just not deep enough or fast enough for me. It did preserve the original finish rather than etch it like a stronger acid would have. So it's probably just fine.


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

Nice find. I am waiting for the glorious day I come across a No7 or No8 at a flea market for a good price. At this point in my woodworking career I am not even that into using hand planes, I think I enjoy the hunt and the wheeling and dealing more.

How long did you leave them in the Evapo-Rust? The one with no name looks like a Stanley Bailey Type 5 1885-1888. Is there anything on the lateral lever? Like Stanley with two patent dates?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Paul W Gillespie said:


> Nice find. I am waiting for the glorious day I come across a No7 or No8 at a flea market for a good price. At this point in my woodworking career I am not even that into using hand planes, I think I enjoy the hunt and the wheeling and dealing more.
> 
> How long did you leave them in the Evapo-Rust? The one with no name looks like a Stanley Bailey Type 5 1885-1888. Is there anything on the lateral lever? Like Stanley with two patent dates?



I left the small parts in overnight Paul. Nothing radical like I was expecting happened., but OK, I guess.
There is nothing else on the body or other parts that I can find. :blink:

BTW as a photog you might appreciate the close up using a magnifying glass since my camera won't do macro or is it micro...I can never keep that straight.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Sometime around or after 1875 L. Bailey started the Victory brand of planes due to a dispute with Stanley. They had already bought his original Co, patents and all from him but he somehow managed to make the Victory line of planes for a while with the same design to spite them.

If it looks just like a Stanley it's because it was the same guy who made it :smile: The low knob is evidence of it being the correct period and the frog looks distinctly Stanley/Bailey. 

So in summation... I'd say it's a Bailey designed Victory. 

Nice find!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Thanks Tom*

I was hoping you would see this and post in and sure enough with great info. :thumbsup: I never heard of the Victory name, so that was great to know. Not bad for $30.00 :laughing: I really enjoyed bringing it back to life. 
What I didn't understand was the difference in thickness and weight in the two no. 7's. The $30.00 one is much thinner and therefore much lighter. Any thoughts on that? :blink: bill


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

I have a #5 that's lighter like that. In it's case I believe it is from the post WWII era when things were not made as well.


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

Tom, I am a new kid on the block when it comes to this stuff, but I just got finished reading The Hand Plane Book, and I thought Leonard Baileys other plane company was Victor without the y? I just double checked and I see no mention of Victory planes in the book. I wish we could get a better read on that lateral adjuster lever or perhaps some writing on the brass depth adjuster. Here is another source on the Victor Plane Company http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/stanley2.htm about midway down the page. Like I said I am new and not anywhere near an expert and most definitely could be wrong. Woodnthings if you could hit the lever with a side light source and the magnifying glass maybe you could see the stamp. Either way it is a great find and nice restore.


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

I also think it is a Type 5 from looking at the Type Study on the Rexmill site. It has the low knob with the beaded bottom and the frog looks similar. Again said with a grain of salt. It is just I have been slightly obsessed by with the search for and typing of hand planes lately. Perhaps Joe will settle it for us.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

The Bailey branded plane you have is much later than the victory. If you found a Bailey of the same vintage as the Victory it too would be thinner/lighter.

I've heard various theories on the reason for this but any which way the planes did get a bit heavier over time.

The theory I had originally accepted was that Stanley added weight to their planes in an attempt to increase performance and better compete with the heavy infills from across the pond. Joe Bailey suggested the theory that it was a result of poor quality control during and after the war meaning low grinding tolerances from less experienced workers meant beefing them up so as to not grind one side TOO thin. Both plausible but I lean towards Joe's idea as being a bit more sound being I seldom see post war planes with equal thickness side walls.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I just won this on E Bay!*

I had one when I was a teen and gave it away because I didn't know what to do with it.... :thumbdown: It didn't work like other planes.
So I went back and lived a little of my teens years over again. I had to have it now that I know what it is and how it works! :yes:


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

Cool on the ebay score. Like I said I am not even that into hand planing yet, but I find myself wanting to buy them when I see them at yard sales and flea markets.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*very useful stuff here, thanks Paul and Tom*

http://www.rexmill.com/
Tom that makes sense. Man I don't want to get to addicted to this ...too.... dang. :no:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Paul W Gillespie said:


> Tom, I am a new kid on the block when it comes to this stuff, but I just got finished reading The Hand Plane Book, and I thought Leonard Baileys other plane company was Victor without the y? I just double checked and I see no mention of Victory planes in the book. I wish we could get a better read on that lateral adjuster lever or perhaps some writing on the brass depth adjuster. Here is another source on the Victor Plane Company http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/stanley2.htm about midway down the page. Like I said I am new and not anywhere near an expert and most definitely could be wrong. Woodnthings if you could hit the lever with a side light source and the magnifying glass maybe you could see the stamp. Either way it is a great find and nice restore.


:huh:
I had to go back and look around a bit and I think you may be right. I sure thought I recalled there being ONE particular victor plane of a very different design while the victorys were another line by Bailey. 

Problem is I can't find any reference to victory as a brand... hmmmmm
Hardware brand? It's obviously a Stanley frog. 

I need to learn to recheck sources before speaking :laughing:

JOE!!!!

:laughing:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> I had one when I was a teen and gave it away because I didn't know what to do with it.... :thumbdown: It didn't work like other planes.
> So I went back and lived a little of my teens years over again. I had to have it now that I know what it is and how it works! :yes:


Very nice! Did you get a decent deal?


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Nice score on the 112! Looks like you have found yourself firmly on the slope. :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I donno?*



firemedic said:


> Very nice! Did you get a decent deal?


I threw money at it until I scared everyone else off. 
Then I scared myself. :blink: The reserve was somewhere around $175.00 or so. I paid $198.00 + shipping Oh well, I've wanted that thing back for about 10 years now. I'll have to learn the ins and out of scrapers now. I find that I get a way smoother surface than by sanding.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> I threw money at it until I scared everyone else off.
> Then I scared myself. :blink: The reserve was somewhere around $175.00 or so. I paid $198.00 + shipping Oh well, I've wanted that thing back for about 10 years now. I'll have to learn the ins and out of scrapers now. I find that I get a way smoother surface than by sanding.


WOW! You DID really want it! haha


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

I am now sucked into the Google vortex, looking at every page that has the slightest mention of Victory Plane Irons and I cannot find any good info.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*did you see this?*

http://toolexchange.com.au/Stanley-Planes-Victor.html

*#8342 VICTOR # 7 Plane, Leonard Bailey is known as the grandfather of the modern plane. Sometime about 1880 he became unhappy with STANLEY and started another plane company selling wood working planes. He named his planes “VICTOR” and produced very good planes. They went though a series of changes and he was once again bought out by STANLEY about 1888. This is a fine example of those early “VICTOR” planes. It has the correct parts as well as none of the common cracks to the cheeks where the lever cap slides into the body. The japanning is well above average without being “enhanced”, I believe. It has the early Rosewood tote with the metal bottom plate. These are not common at all. It is a real # 7 size plane. The body is 21 9/16 inches long and the cutter is just over 2 5/16 inches wide with plenty of length left. A$ 995


$995.00 !!!???
*


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

I did, but I am still trying to find info on whether Victory and Victor are the same company. I can find plenty of info about the Victor Plane Company that Leonard Bailey started, but only a few mentions of Victory plane irons. I am not sure that they are the same. I thinking the Victor plane blades have L.Bailey marked on them. If they are then you really may have scored a home run.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*more history*

http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/stanley2.htm

A partial quote:
Was Leonard Bailey mad as hell at the Stanley Rule and Level Co.? Probably, at sometime, why else would he name his planes 'Victor' and 'Defiance'. How did Bailey get along with other great tool inventors of the day? Some well, others not so well - surely he didn't have much use for Justus Traut who litigated against him and his Victor planes. On the other hand he and Charles Miller were jointly granted a patent for the Victor #14 combination plane. 

This body looks like mine, but the knobs and tote are very different: http://www.patented-antiques.com/Backpages/T-F-S/stanplanes/LB-VIC-DEF.html


Here's another 7:
http://www.antiqbuyer.com/All_Archives/STANLEY/archive-victor-Defplanes.htm


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

I guess we will have to wait and see if someone with better knowledge than me knows for sure. My guess is that you have a Type 5, Stanley Bailey Plane with a aftermarket Victory blade and not an actual Victor Plane Company No7. I don't know if there was a Victory plane iron maker or not, but with my limited knowledge that is my best guess. Hopefully Joebucketofrust or one of the other plane experts will let us know. Good luck and I hope I am wrong and your score is a Victor.

PS it is still an awesome plane. Great job on the find and restore.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree with what Paul said above. I think it's an early Stanely #7 with a different blade. Everything else is consistet with Stanley's early #7's. What is written inside the depth adjustment wheel? I have an old 5 1/2 from that era and it's a little lighter feeling too, and I've handled some #7's from then and they're lighter feeling in my opinion. I think they kept them lighter b/c they had to transport not by car then and also easier to push a lighter plane longer. Just guessing, but I think you got a hell of a deal on that. Thought you were all power tool! Nice 112 too. I can't wait to see what else you get next!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It is marked No. 7*



ACP said:


> I agree with what Paul said above. I think it's an* early Stanely #7 with a different blade. Everything else is consistet with Stanley's early #7's.* What is written inside the depth adjustment wheel? I have an old 5 1/2 from that era and it's a little lighter feeling too, and I've handled some #7's from then and they're lighter feeling in my opinion. I think they kept them lighter b/c they had to transport not by car then and also easier to push a lighter plane longer. Just guessing, but I think you got a hell of a deal on that.* Thought you were all power tool!* Nice 112 too. I can't wait to see what else you get next!


So it must be a No. 7 , not a Type 5 ...right? I know nothing.

Yeah, I'm not much of hand tool guy, but I may be transitioning....  
If the grid goes down and we are back to the 18th century way of life, we'll all be using hand tools and pumping water by hand. We'll know after Dec 21, 2012 if the Mayans were correct or if their stone carver guy just ran out of rock for the next page... :laughing:


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

Type 5 refers to the date not the size. It is a No7 size.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I told you I knew nothing...*



Paul W Gillespie said:


> Type 5 refers to the date not the size. It is a No7 size.


Gotcha, :blink: thanx


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