# Tailstock slippage?



## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

So, I know that you get what you pay for. And I know that I was warned about Harbor Freight tools. And believe me, I KNEW something like this would happen, so I'm not even upset. I just want to find out if anyone else has run into this, or if it's a new "gremlin" in the HF world. 

My tailstock has started slipping, enough to make turning impossible. I took it off the ways, cleaned it, checked the threads on the bolt and nut, checked the locking mechanism, etc. Couldn't find anything out of line, but then again, I'm not an expert. No missing parts, no broken parts... Just slipping. Any thoughts? If it's an easy fix, I'll save my warranty for the next catastrophic failure. If not, I'll get a new one. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't secretly looking for a nice Oliver to restore anyway, so whatever happens, I think I win(as long as I can get back to turning). Thanks!

WCT


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## fixer (Jul 24, 2011)

Iv'e had my HF 12 33 for 4 years + and 
the only time it gave me trouble was
when the nut that holds the clamping device 
on ( that is the big nut that goes on from the bottom)
will sometimes loosen up and it will slip on the bed
it's a pretty simple device works like the lock 
on the banjo!
hope that helps:smile:


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

fixer said:


> Iv'e had my HF 12 33 for 4 years + and the only time it gave me trouble was when the nut that holds the clamping device on ( that is the big nut that goes on from the bottom) will sometimes loosen up and it will slip on the bed it's a pretty simple device works like the lock on the banjo! hope that helps:smile:


Agree, check the nut on the bottom and tighten it slightly.
Tom


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

+1 on having a little slippage from time to time. I simply relaxed the locking lever and snugged up the nut by hand (so it became just a little stiff to slide) then it would lock perfectly when I cranked the handle.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Generally, the problem is most prevalent on lathes that have a large thick washer and nut to lock down the tailstock and banjo (and headstock, if it also is movable) -- which, unfortunately includes almost all lathes now being made. In the past, a better solution for locking these things was to use what is known as a T-slot nut (you might be familiar with this if you you have a metal lathe, milling machine, or drill press that has slots for T-slot nuts.










The one pictured here is the type used on the table of a drill press for holding fixtures such as X-Y vises or Vise Grip clamps in place. I haven't seen any ready made ones available of the right size that would fit the gap on most lathes, but it would be easy enough to do a local fabrication. Hardened steel would work best, but any good steel ought to work.

Since most lathes have an eccentric cam, the threaded type of T-slot nut can't be used since there would be no way to thread the nut far enough onto the bolt. The solution is to just have a smooth fairly close tolerance drilled hole with a hex nut beneath it. It would be best if the bolt could move freely through the hole without dragging, but not so loose that the bolt tends to cock sideways. If that happens, you could have a potential problem smoothly sliding the tailstock, banjo, or headstock.

You can also improve the operation of your current set up by cleaning up the bottom side of the ways where the washer normally slides. Use naphtha to remove any oil, grease, or wax. If there are any ridges or burrs they can be dressed out with a little careful use of a fine pitch file on the bottom edge of the ways -- but be careful, this is no place to get rambunctious with your portable hand operated milling machine. All that you want to do is remove any ridges or burrs not reshape the ways on your lathe.


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## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

I have definitely been tightening up the nut on the bottom. In fact, I have to tighten it almost every time I lock in. I've taken to keeping a socket wrench on the shelf below to tighten up. 
A T-nut would be great, but like you said, with the cam-lock, it wouldn't work. I do need to check out the underside of the ways to see if there are any burrs or other imperfections. I should have done that when I set the lathe up, honestly. Live and learn. 
Aside from the stuff already mentioned, I can't really think if much more to check for. I may chalk it up to a manufacturing anomaly and move on. Not really willing to put a load of time into polishing a turd, as it were. Thanks for the suggestions guys. Hopefully, something will work out. Happy turning!

WCT


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

Have you taken the tailstock out of the ways to flip it over and take a look at what's underneath? If you remove one screw and loosen the other on the bar that's attached across the end of the bed, the tailstock can then slide straight out.

I've forgotten what it looks like under there, but there may be something obvious on the clamping mechanism.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Camden said:


> I have definitely been tightening up the nut on the bottom. In fact, I have to tighten it almost every time I lock in. I've taken to keeping a socket wrench on the shelf below to tighten up.
> A T-nut would be great, but like you said, with the cam-lock, it wouldn't work. I do need to check out the underside of the ways to see if there are any burrs or other imperfections. I should have done that when I set the lathe up, honestly. Live and learn.
> Aside from the stuff already mentioned, I can't really think if much more to check for. I may chalk it up to a manufacturing anomaly and move on. Not really willing to put a load of time into polishing a turd, as it were. Thanks for the suggestions guys. Hopefully, something will work out. Happy turning!
> 
> WCT


BTW, if your lathe is like most with a cam type of locking mechanism then tightening the nut won't accomplish much except changing the lock position of the handle -- assuming that it isn't so loose that it won't lock at all or isn't so tight that it won't allow the tailstock to be moved.

Actually, a _T-slot_ nut can be used assuming against all odds that you could find one of the right size. The problem is that it would require adjusting off the lathe and then installing for a fit check. It can be done, but would require several iterations to get the position so that the handle locks down in the position that you prefer (typically just a bit above horizontal).

If you do a search, make sure that the search term is* T-slot nut* and not T-nut or you will get the wrong results.


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## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

Yeah, I've taken it off a few times... Just hoping something obvious was wrong... Nothing to my eye, which is untrained, granted, but still... As far as the t-slot nut goes... If I was dealing with a higher quality machine, or one of some significant scarcity or value, then I would absolutely be willing to put the work in to improve my assembly thusly. But, as it stands, it just isn't worth it. I don't like our current society's view on disposability, and if Harbor Freight allows me to keep the "flawed" lathe, I will tinker with it until it serves some purpose, but right now I simply don't have time. I need a lathe that can take a bit of punishment and keep on turning. I know that Harbor Freight isn't exactly known for "heirloom" tools, but aside from this issue, it's a decent little lathe. Until that Oliver 51D comes waltzing into my life, I'll use what I can. If I come up with an acceptable solution, I'll be sure to post here with pictures, so that the next person will have an easier time of it. Thanks again for your time!

WCT


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

I just had a thought. If the nut is actually loosening then it might not be the right kind -- what it needs is a stop nut either the kind with a nylon insert or the kind that has been deformed and hardened. I would try the nylon insert type first as they won't damage the threads on the stud. The metal ones will dig into the stud, but they'll hold forever and then some.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I read somewhere that some well known wood turners actually sprayed water on the tailstock and or lathe bed to make a little rust to improve grip and prevent slippage.

Goes against my grain to create rust on a tool, but throwing this out if you are looking for a "clutching at straw" solution.

You also could just try some 80 or 100 grit on the bottom of the tailstock to get a less smooth surface without the rust. :icon_smile:


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## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

Dave Paine said:


> I read somewhere that some well known wood turners actually sprayed water on the tailstock and or lathe bed to make a little rust to improve grip and prevent slippage.
> 
> Goes against my grain to create rust on a tool, but throwing this out if you are looking for a "clutching at straw" solution.
> 
> You also could just try some 80 or 100 grit on the bottom of the tailstock to get a less smooth surface without the rust. :icon_smile:


Dave-
Believe it or not, this line of thinking HAD occurred to me! But like you, I have a hard time CREATING rust. I spend so much time restoring old tools, that it seems completely crazy! But, I do like the 80 grit sandpaper idea. Or maybe a little sand mixed with epoxy? That way I could scrape it off if it's too much or whatever. Who knows, this could be the answer. I may give it a go later on today. I do need to turn a few things, and the weather here is too crappy to pick up a new lathe. Thanks!

WCT


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Camden said:


> I do like the 80 grit sandpaper idea. Or maybe a little sand mixed with epoxy? That way I could scrape it off if it's too much or whatever. Who knows, this could be the answer. I may give it a go later on today. I do need to turn a few things, and the weather here is too crappy to pick up a new lathe. Thanks!


If you like the abrasive idea, rather than mix with epoxy, how about just gluing a piece of abrasive to the tailstock with e.g., 3M spray adhesive. Should hold when the tailstock is locked down and easy to remove.

I buy 3in rolls of PSA abrasive from Klingspor for use when I need to glue abrasive to something.

http://www.woodworkingshop.com/category.aspx?id=22&f2=ADHESIVE


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

The problem is generally one of 3 things. First is the locking mechanism that Bill already mentioned. A lot of companies use what amounts to a large round washer with a shoulder to clamp against the ways to hold the tailstock in place. It simply doesn't have enough metal to metal contact to keep the tailstock from slipping. A rectangular "washer" works much better because you have lots more metal to metal contact.
The nut on the bottom may not be adjusted so the lever arm closes to the correct position to really lock the taiilstock stock in place. It sounds like you've already tried this. Make sure the nut isn't slipping or coming loose. The lever should lock everything when it's about 2/3"s of the way down. If not readjust the nut on the bottom. Some people add a pipe for more leverage and this does work but the first solution and the next one I'm going to write about will solve the problem and you won't need the pipe.
Last but the hardest is to make sure the tailstock ways are flat and mate perfectly with the bed ways. Ideally you need some machinists marking fluid for this but sometimes a magic marker will work. Color the sliding part of the tailstock ways. Put it on the lathe and slide it back and forth. You should see shiny spots showing where it rubs. These are the high points. Ideally there should be big broad areas of dye worn off. If there's only a few spots then that's the problem. You simply don't have enough contact with the bed to make it lock down no matter how the other 2 things are corrected. You need to file or sand down these high spots. Do it slowly and carefully. Test fit it often. Ideally you should see these areas of contact get larger and larger the more you work on it. This is slow going and takes a lot of patience but is well worth it in the end. 
Someone used to make the tailstock rectangular replacement washers but I can't find them anymore and don't remember who it was. Maybe someone else will know.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

john lucas said:


> ... Someone used to make the tailstock rectangular replacement washers but I can't find them anymore and don't remember who it was. Maybe someone else will know.


Someone on Sawmill Creek did it for a while -- maybe it was Keith -- I don't recall. Anyway, that was several years ago and I think that whoever did it did not want to start doing it as a business.

It wouldn't be too hard to make your own by stacking some quarter inch steel and fastening together with screws. Chamfer the edges so that they don't grab and hang on the bottom side of the bed ways.


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## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

Dave- good call on glueing abrasive. If I go that route, that's what I'll do.

John- I'm not 100% sure of the nut being properly set. I have dis- and re- assembled several times, and I feel like I've got it right, but the lathe is one of the very few machines that I haven't done a ground-up restoration on, so I'm much less knowledgeable. I did check the ways and tailstock for flatness. I used Prussian Blue, and they both read flat- dead flat. Which, actually, surprised the heck out of me. I was prepared to hand-scrape them, but hey, even a blind pig finds a truffle every now and then. I may try to create more metal-metal contact, as that seems like the most logical and least labor intensive thing I could do, aside from using abrasive(which I am a little less apt to do, now that I know my surfaces are flat... I don't want to have to re-flatten down the line). I did a little turning earlier today, using much smaller stock(less than 2" wide, about 8" long), and the difference was pronounced. That's well and good, but I can't be limited by my lathe so dramatically. I'm not a pen turner(I don't have the mindset for it... Lots of respect for those who do), so it's actually rare that I chuck up small stock. I turned a marking knife handle from walnut that was still wet, along with two drawknife handles from rosewood that was reading in he vicinity of 10-12% moisture content. The rosewood definitely had a harder time... 

I'm just rambling now, so I'll stop. Gonna fool with it a bit more and then probably just use the warranty. If anyone needs to sell a big old iron lathe, I'm your guy! Thanks again, guys, and as ever, happy turning.

WCT


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## 20/20 (Nov 7, 2013)

Mine will also loosen as you mentioned but all I have to do is tighten the nut like others posted. I also wonder if by forcing the cam to lock to tight wouldn't bend the shaft that goes across(?) When I 1st started turning, I'd bully the tail stock as tight as possible then I realized I was just adding extra force that was not needed. It does have to be tight but it's not a bulldozer sprocket


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

20/20 said:


> Mine will also loosen as you mentioned but all I have to do is tighten the nut like others posted. I also wonder if by forcing the cam to lock to tight wouldn't bend the shaft that goes across(?) When I 1st started turning, I'd bully the tail stock as tight as possible then I realized I was just adding extra force that was not needed. It does have to be tight but it's not a bulldozer sprocket


If anything, I might be more concerned about deforming the ways. I think that the cam is pretty substantial on most lathes. On mine, the cam is about 1¼" diameter and there is a huge mechanical advantage considering the large locking handle rotation angle just to move the rocker arm a fraction of an inch vertically.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

On some lathes the cam action has to lock up on just the right portion of the cam or it works its way loose due to vibration. You can usually tell if this is the problem because when the tailstock gets loose you will have to move the handle to re tighten. if that isn't the problem the handle will usually be in the fully tightened position.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

john lucas said:


> On some lathes the cam action has to lock up on just the right portion of the cam or it works its way loose due to vibration. You can usually tell if this is the problem because when the tailstock gets loose you will have to move the handle to re tighten. if that isn't the problem the handle will usually be in the fully tightened position.


I would think that the ideal adjustment on the nut would be such that the cam can't quite reach TDC when you apply as much force as you can on the handle. As you said, if it locks too quickly then it won't take much for it to unlock.


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## Camden (Oct 22, 2013)

So, I came up with a "solution" that is acceptable for me for now. I bought a spare socket that fit the nut underneath the tailstock, found an old socket wrench, and have dedicated these to keeping the tailstock tight. I turned some really squirrelly pacific yew last night, and aside from the inherent frustration associated with turning wood like this(catchcatchcatch), there were no issues. For now, this will work for me. It allows me to continue to turn, I don't have to assemble a new(or old) machine, and my "solution" only tacks on around 3 seconds per set-up, which is well within my time-table tolerance. I will continue the search for my dream lathe in earnest, and until then, I will forge my turning skill set in the fires of adversity. Dramatic enough? Thanks again for all the info and help everyone; I'm sure it will be useful in the future. 

WCT


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Sorry that you didn't get nominated for an Oscar. :icon_smile:


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