# Need advice for dust extraction



## xargsgrep (Sep 10, 2021)

I'm a complete beginner to wood working and just started a few months ago. I work in a standard size garage and don't do enough woodworking to warrant a full blown collection system with ducting all over the place. Even with the small amount of work that I do, there is already dust all over my garage and even a haze from all the dust in the air. I always wear a face mask when doing any work but I also have a respirator with these cartridges (not sure which one is better?).

Recently I was doing a lot of sanding with my orbit sander and I already felt something weird in my chest/lungs which got me a bit concerned. I have a basic shop vac which I only use to clean up after any the work, not while the tool is running. I've read that's pretty bad because the blower port just sends the dust flying all over the place. I've watched a whole bunch of videos on dust collection, extraction, etc and feel overwhelmed since it's really not clear to me what I should do.

So far from what I've gathered it seems like the best option for me would be to ditch the shop vac and get a dust extractor with HEPA filter, like the Bosch or the Festool CT 26 or midi. But it's still unclear to me how I would use these to prevent the fine dust from getting everywhere. The only tools I really use are a miter saw, table saw, circular saw, jig saw and orbit sander.

1. Can I use these dust extractors as vacuums after the fact without them blowing dust all over the place?
2. Is the most important thing that I use them while the tools are actually running and not after the fact?
3. Do I just hook them up straight to the port on the miter/table saw?
4. What about the circular saw, jig saw and orbit sander which don't really have ports? Well, the sander does have a port which has a dust collection bag but it still seems to blow dust out from all directions.
5. How do I prevent the fine layer of dust that lingers in the air and settles all over the place, would an air filtration system such as this one solve that?
6. Any recommendations for a reasonably priced particle meter?

I also considered using a dust deputy with the shop vac but it just seems too bulky and I like the fact that the above extractors are much more compact. I have a small space so the compact part is a big plus for me.

Sorry for all the dumb questions!


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

I have a normal shop vac. It has a decent and large filter, but I doubt it's as fibe as the hepa rated ones.

You will have trouble collecting from the jigsaw and circular saw. Those do not have good dust collection ports. They are messy, but the chips are typically not fine dust, so a broom and dustpan/vacuum works pretty well.

Miter saws are slightly better, but you will only get about 50-75% of the dust.

Most tablesaws have a 2" shop vac hose dust collection port. You usually plug the hose directly into the saw and it sucks the dust out pretty well. I was super impressed with the DC from my old dewalt jobsite saw. It was better than my cabinet saw.

Most Sanders have a bag that you can remove and add a dust hose onto. The collection on mine works very well. Everything has a different port size, so that is annoying. I bought this from Amazon to handle the various sizes.

Cen-Tec Systems 94709 Quick Click 16 Ft. Hose for Home and Shop Vacuums with Expanded Multi-Brand Power Tool Adapter Set for Dust Collection, Silver, Feet Amazon.com


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## xargsgrep (Sep 10, 2021)

Thanks, that's super helpful. I really like the quick click hose.


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## sunnybob (Sep 3, 2016)

All dust is a killer, fine dust is a quicker killer.
You MUST spend out on a proper dust extraction system to save you and your family. 
If you dont , its the same as buying a super fast engine for your car but not bothering to get better brakes.
You will regret it, sooner or later.
Look up COPD, its a group of lung disorders bought on by dust exposure, having any of them is horrible, life changing, and permanent.


As far as dust masks go, I'm not sure if the European ratings apply in the USA, but look for an FFP rating. For fine dust you need FFP3. FFP1 and FFP2 are very basic for large chips.
And none of this is relevant if you dont use them or wear them every time you cut wood.


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

Everything you ever wanted to know about dust collection. More even....


Bill's Cyclone Dust Collection Research - Home Page


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## Roybrew (Nov 2, 2016)

Those are great questions and concerns. Things that I need to start looking at for when I get my simple shop done.

I do most of my wood cutting and sanding outside. I, try to, hook up a shop vac to my tools, and I wear a dust mask. For my orbital sander I use a shop vac with a smaller hose.







I remove the dust bag and slip hose on port. The hose is a little bigger then the port, so I use masking tape to hold it on and seal it. For my router table and table saw I bought a bigger shop vac that has a large hose, more capacity and has a higher CFM rating.
I've got an old Delta table saw. It's never had dust recovery set up on it, so that will something that has to engineered. 
I wonder how well these things do, of course in addition to proper dust recovery setups on the equipment.








I always wear some type of dust mask when using the equipment including outside.
Things I need to upgrade also. Lots of this discussion on here.
Roy

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

xargsgrep said:


> I'm a complete beginner to wood working and just started a few months ago. I work in a standard size garage and don't do enough woodworking to warrant a full blown collection system with ducting all over the place. Even with the small amount of work that I do, there is already dust all over my garage and even a haze from all the dust in the air. I always wear a face mask when doing any work but I also have a respirator with these cartridges (not sure which one is better?).
> 
> Recently I was doing a lot of sanding with my orbit sander and I already felt something weird in my chest/lungs which got me a bit concerned. I have a basic shop vac which I only use to clean up after any the work, not while the tool is running. I've read that's pretty bad because the blower port just sends the dust flying all over the place. I've watched a whole bunch of videos on dust collection, extraction, etc and feel overwhelmed since it's really not clear to me what I should do.
> 
> ...


I don't own a dust "extractor" but it's my understanding is they are just a better shop vac with more refined filters.
The filter is there to clean the air that's forced back into the room, so the better the filter, the cleaner the air that goes back.
How clean is clean enough? I donno? But I do know that they are about 5 X the cost of a good shop vac:


festool dust extractor - Google Search



There are a few ways to improve the dust collection on a shop vac:
Use a paper bag filter wrapped around the pleated filter inside the dust collection barrel.
Use a Dust Deputy or other separator like a Dust Stopper, (cheaper) between the shop vac and the suction hose and dust port on your machine.
YouTube has many examples of how well this works:


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=disut+deputy+and+shop+vac






And it does work very well and the stacked units take up much less floor space!
Use a HEPA filter on your shop vac, but it will just get clogged up as fast as the standard ones, a waste on money.

Always connect your collection hose as close to the dust port on the tool as is practical. There are smaller, more flexible hose meant for this purpose than the large heavy 2 1/2' hose that come with shop vacs:








Cen-Tec 10 ft. Hose with Dust Collection Power Tool Adapters for Wet/Dry Vacuums 94181 - The Home Depot


Cen-Tec Systems 94181 is engineered to connect a wide range of major power tool brands to your home shop vacuum for recovery of the debris and dust generated during the use of the power tool, keeping you and your shop clean while protecting you from airborne particulate that can harm your...



www.homedepot.com





Use as little of the 4" f ribbed flex hose to connect to your larger machines as practical. Avoid long runs because the ribs obstruct the air flow and reduce the efficiency overall. There are smoother versions of that 4" hose available.

Those small power tools are notorious for have poor duct collection. So you'll need to modify them to make them better. A plastic bottle cut ro fit around the tools has worked well for me.

The ceiling mounted air filtration units DO work well and I have them in my shops. Wen has a cheap one and it gets good reviews. Mine are Jets, more expensive. The filters are the main difference as far as I understand.

A face covering dust mask is your last line of defense, so get a decent one and wear it when you are in the shop. Leave the overhead unit run for about 1/2 ht after you are finished working. Get a timer for it if it doesn't have a built in timer.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Big, big subject. A dust extractor is not just an expensive shop vac with better filters. They are true HEPA vacs, much, much quieter, and designed to work with small diameter hoses. The have features like on demand auto on/off.

For hand tools like sanders, etc. IMO they excel. I've found when you attach a small hose to a shop vac performance drops a lot. That said, if you don't have/want $4-800 to spend, adding a hepa filter and using filter bag helps a shop vac a lot (I've heard the filter bags are the key to make a HEPA filter work) Re: brands, I have a Festool CT36 and it is excellent, but Bosch and Fein are also two good options. A recent review I saw was pretty positive toward the Bosch.

Also consider the tool itself. Some have inherently good dust control, others don't. I can say for sure that my Festool sander coupled with the extractor appears to be pretty much "dustless". Circular saw are a lost cause, but plunge cut type track saws have pretty decent collection.

Personally I would only use an extractor for general clean up if it had a cyclone attached. If space allows my suggestion is to fix up a shop vac with a cyclone for shop clean up. If you're thinking about this, a Dust Deputy has more suction than a Dust Stopper.

Over head air filtration I consider an absolute must for a small, enclosed shop. Again, filters are important use the best you can.

Another consideration for a garage or basement shop is making sure the air handler is sealed well. Any dust that enters will be distributed through the living space.

Miter saws are the most difficult machines to collect. I struggled with it for years and for a long time didn't have any a all. Now I have a hood with sliding doors and a dedicated 1HP wall blower and it really does the job.


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## laldog3 (Mar 20, 2011)

A couple of quick and cheap ideas while you save some money for real (expensive) dust collection resources. 

First, get a better filter for your shop vac. You can jury-rig connections to your various tools to capture as much dust as you can _*at the source*_.

Buy 2 furnace MERV 13 (or better) filter the same size as a box fan. Mount the filter on both sides of the box fan and run it while you're generating any dust.

Try and work as much as possible with the garage door open and follow the great suggestions listed above.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Dust collection / extraction is WAY more than just a shop vac. The poster above that linked you to Bill Pentz research did you an enormous favor even though reading through the voluminous information doesn't feel like it.

I am NO EXPERT in the field, but I do have some experience making mistakes with dust collection. And mistake #1 was thinking a shop vac would do the job. Nope. Not even close.

Instead of going into painful detail, let me just brain dump my takeaways from the Bill Pentz research as I understand it.

#1. It is best to go with a full on high powered dedicated cyclone, at least 3HP, with giant stacked pleated filters and fully customized dust shrouds. But back on earth with people that have to deal with space limits and budgets, for many of us, that isn't going to happen.
#2. There are some tools that no matter what you do, if you want to keep the function of the tool, dust collection is going to be problematic. I'm looking right at sliding miter saws, lathes etc... 
#3. At a BARE MINIMUM, you should use a 2HP dust collector, with a pleated MERV15 filter such as the Wynn 35a Nano filter, or the competitors on the market, AND a neutral vane to reduce the amount of fine dust and chips making it to the filter.
#4. This si MY Observation. Pre separators / inline cyclones like a Dust Deputy / Thien Separators etc... all take a substantial hit in the performance of the sytem causing a bottleneck of airflow. I am assuming this is why Bill recommends a 3HP or better blower.
#5. Size your piping for the capacity of the blower you have. My HF DC with the Wynn filter, and Wen impeller can handle 6", but just barely by the skin of its teeth.
#6. Keep your runs as straight, and smooth as possible, avoid tight turns, and ridges etc... Think of airflow like cars on a road. The bigger, smoother, and straighter the road the more traffic it can handle faster.
#7. Do NOT neglect an ambient air cleaner, because no matter the dust collection you use, you WILL miss some. 
#8. Use an N95 or better mask, or better yet, a properly fitted respirator with N95 cartridges. Now that most of the COVID mask panic has abated, they should be easier to come by...

Just FWIW, my duct system I KNOW is wonky, and needs to be fixed / upgraded, as soon as Mr. budget plays nice...

My current dust collector is...

Harbor Freight 2HP 70 gallon dust collector. The older green model. If you opt for the cheaper / used / DIY approach, try to find one of the green ones. I am seeing reports of the flange on the impellers of the gray ones breaking while trying to swap the impeller. It isn't along term problem as it is the part you are replacing, it jjust makes replacement more difficult.

Anyway, HF 2HP 70 gallon DC, Wynn 35a MERV15 cartridge filter, Wen 3403-22 12" turbofan (impeller), and Neutral Vane using [email protected] template. 

My current ductwork is a single 5", that branches to dual 4", one upper, one lower. 4" Lee Valley metal blast gates as close as I could get them to the tools.

My planned upgrades are...

#1 Replace fan flange from OE 5" to a 6". There is an agriculture fan / filter flange that reportedly fits these DCs that is a 6" duct size. Everyone is out of stock on them right now due to supply chain. So I wait...
#2. Pull a single overhead 6" main, 6" branches to right by the tools, and then use 6x4 cone reducers as close to the tool dust port as possible.
#3. Where I need to make a 90 degree bend, I will use 2 45s to make the bend more gradual / sweeping, again back to the car analogy.

Like I said, some tools are fine, some are bog awful for dust collection. Sliding miter saw is bog awful. Table saw is great, some folks have trouble with it, but the Rigid Oscillating spindle / belt sander works fine. Planer, Jointer are good, band saw is okay but about to get better as I have extra ports coming and plan on splitting to multiple 2.5" ports, keeping the airflow up and putting the ports as close as possible to where the dust is going to be...

I do not plan on a separate pre separator again, on the contrary I eliminated one, so I will go through more dust bags again.

And lastly I have a Grizzly G0572 3 speed overhead air cleaner.

IF I had to start from scratch. I would...

Try to source up a good condition green HF 2HP DC. When they hit the used market here I see them going for about $80.00
Donaldson P181038 cartridge air filter. $159.00 on Amazon.
Wen 3403-22 impeller. $35.00 was what I paid.
5" x 24" split shet metal duct to make your neutral vane out of. I think I paid $4.00 at Home Depot.
Shorty short short pop rivets, NOT sheet metal screws as those will grab everything that tries to pass. Not sure the cost. I have them in my inventory, came with a riveter from Harbor Freight probably 10 years ago.
Hydrofarm AC6F 6" Active Air Flange. Same size as the OE, with the 6" duct flange.

Make and install your neutral vane, swap your impeller, and swap the bag for the cartridge filter. FWIW. I left the bar that holds the upper bag off. The bolts are there to keep air in place, but the bar is sitting in a corner in my shop with other orphaned stuff.
Mark locations and drill the mount holes in the air flange, and install flange.
Connect up your 6" duct...

Lastly, the ambient air filter. Probably just based on cost, since it has as good of a filter as everyone else's and I have no qualms with the RF remote, Wen 3417 3 speed 1044cfm max industrial air filtration system. 

Anyway, that is my long winded throught process. Hopefully it offers you some insight into the thought processes on dust collection. No you don't "need" a big high powered cyclone. Would it be a good thing and added insurance? Absolutely? Can you afford it space, or budget wise? That is for you to answer for yourself.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Cheapest Festool dust extractor vs good Rigid shop vac, an honest user comparison!
$350.00 plus $70.00 for filters VS $100.00 plus $8.00 for filters:





Another important "variable" is how much time will you be spending in the shop. and how good and well fitting is your face mask?
How susceptible are you to lung or breathing issues like asthma and frequent colds or pneumonia?
Do you work with the more "potent" exotic hardwoods like certain rosewoods? I did one time and had a severe reaction.
You will benefit from a Dust Deputy no matter what else you have, but always take your loaded filters and collection barrels outside to empty or clean them and wear a mask during that as well!

The table saw is one of the most difficult machines to collect the dust from, especially an open back contractor type saw having the motor and spinning belt hanging out the rear. Even a closed-in saw cabinet saw like a hybrid relies on "gravity" to catch the dust that slides down the ramp to the 4" dust port and that doesn't even work all that well. The newer saws like Saw Stop have a blade shroud that cover most the blade under the table and directs the dust into a smaller collection port, the very best solution. When combined with a "over the blade cover" above the table, you've got the best of both worlds. I have experimented with all sorts of over the blade dust collectors with various results. One is better than none!


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

BigCountry79 said:


> I have a normal shop vac. It has a decent and large filter, but I doubt it's as fibe as the hepa rated ones.
> 
> You will have trouble collecting from the jigsaw and circular saw. Those do not have good dust collection ports. They are messy, but the chips are typically not fine dust, so a broom and dustpan/vacuum works pretty well.
> 
> ...


Fein and Festool both make very good woodworking vacuums with HEPA filtration. But honestly, you can reduce some of the sawdust in your shop, but woodworking makes dust. There is no way around it. I have a full piped dust collection system with a chip separator and 5 micron dust bag. I have lines that I can plug into blast gates and hook directly up to my sanders. On some days I can still use a snow shovel to clean up, my windows are still dust covered. What I do, that I find the most effective, is stay on top of it. Every 30 minutes or so I clean up and sweep the floors. That seems to be the biggest help in my experience.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

B Coll said:


> Fein and Festool both make very good woodworking vacuums with HEPA filtration. But honestly, you can reduce some of the sawdust in your shop, but woodworking makes dust. There is no way around it. I have a full piped dust collection system with a chip separator and 5 micron dust bag. I have lines that I can plug into blast gates and hook directly up to my sanders. On some days I can still use a snow shovel to clean up, my windows are still dust covered. What I do, that I find the most effective, is stay on top of it. Every 30 minutes or so I clean up and sweep the floors. That seems to be the biggest help in my experience.


While I agree to a certain point, I am going to fall back to my comments on bare minimums. Cartridge filter with at a minimum of 1 micron filtration. The lower the better.

You will not eliminate dust entirely due to missing capture at the tool, but you will go a very long ways to making your life better and safer!


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Cheapest Festool dust extractor vs good Rigid shop vac, an honest user comparison!
> $350.00 plus $70.00 for filters VS $100.00 plus $8.00 for filters:
> 
> You will benefit from a Dust Deputy no matter what else you have.


I agree with the cyclone b/c it will save your filters.

WNT, I didn’t watch the video, and there may be good points there, but it’s not just about suction, the big issue is air quality. I hope you agree there‘s simply no way a shop vac with an $8 filter is going to compare.

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree a shop vac can work, but, you need a HEPA filter ($40-50), and you need the bags (maybe not with a cyclone but helps). And you need a decent, very flexible 1 3/4” hose (have test to find one). But you’re still left with a screaming banshee not designed for either a HEPA filter nor a small hose.

I used a shop vac for many years and got tired of the noise, and the bulkiness. I bought the Festool b/c It was smaller, had a good rep, and I knew it would be quieter. Using it a couple years, I’ve never replaced the HEPA filter yet ($100 ouch!!). But I would say 75% of the reason I like the Festool is the noise.

For the OP keep in mind a shop vac, separator, hose and HEPA filter is going to put you very close to the Bosch. When it comes to health issues it really doesn’t make sense to scrimp.

I would note the cost comparison b/t Bosch, Fein and Festool. The deciding factor might be the filter cost.


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## jdonhowe (Jul 25, 2014)

To address one of the OP's questions I didn't yet see answered, i.e. re: respirator filters. Rather than the filter in the link, just go with the 3M P100 particulate filters. You don't need acid gas, etc. filtration for routing woodworking. You can swap in an organic compounds filter when doing finishing work.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

I wouldn’t recommend the respirator types they are very cumbersome to use for dust. They are very good for painting.

IMO the RZ mask is a much easier and very good product.


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## xargsgrep (Sep 10, 2021)

Thank you all for the great advice. I think I'm gonna invest in the Wen air filtration system that people mentioned and also replace the shop vac with the Bosch VAC090AH with hepa filter (it was between that one and Festool but Bosch seemed a bit cheaper but still had good reviews). I'll also buy all the correct adapters so I can use the Bosch with all my tools so I can collect as much dust at the source and not after the fact. The cost of it all is kinda steep but I'm willing to spend on them if they keep my lungs healthier.

As far as the mask goes, I pretty much always end up using the RZ mask over the 3M respirator and I also keep it on long after I'm done doing any work. What about a particle meter, would anyone recommend getting one of those?


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## wdpsn62 (May 26, 2021)

xargsgrep said:


> I'm a complete beginner to wood working and just started a few months ago. I work in a standard size garage and don't do enough woodworking to warrant a full blown collection system with ducting all over the place. Even with the small amount of work that I do, there is already dust all over my garage and even a haze from all the dust in the air. I always wear a face mask when doing any work but I also have a respirator with these cartridges (not sure which one is better?).
> 
> Recently I was doing a lot of sanding with my orbit sander and I already felt something weird in my chest/lungs which got me a bit concerned. I have a basic shop vac which I only use to clean up after any the work, not while the tool is running. I've read that's pretty bad because the blower port just sends the dust flying all over the place. I've watched a whole bunch of videos on dust collection, extraction, etc and feel overwhelmed since it's really not clear to me what I should do.
> 
> ...


Hello, your questions are not in the least dumb. I recently retired as a journeyman carpenter/cabinet maker and have a small shop in my walkout basement. I'll tell you how my paths went and what I've found, for me, is ideal. I have a Shopvac 6.25 hp, 16 gallon unit and first had it coupled with a Dust Right setup, this worked but still I had quite a lot of medium to fine dust in my vac. I then switched to an Oneida Dust Deputy and it was a revelation to say the least. I can run for hrs and hrs before I take out the paper cartridge, take it outside and blow it out. There is ZERO chip and dust laying in the bottom of the vac (yes those photos you see online of this are very true). I also run a Grizzly air filter that hangs from the ceiling and have a rolling cart I made using an old furnace blower that has filters in it. Check out the Dust Deputy, those folks are very helpful and great to deal with. (I've attached a photo of a chest of drawers I recently completed.) Best wishes, Merry Christmas and God Bless!


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## Biotec (Mar 14, 2021)

Good day to all.
From my point of view The festool that has been mentioned earlier for about $600 would be a great choice for a point of use for the Sanders or anything else that makes very fine dust. For course larger dust particulates than use,
The link using the Home Depot dust collection, or any other brand cyclonic just collection single point of use. This will help reduce the amount of dust getting into the air initially.
The wen whole shop air filtration is great for extremely fine particulate that you have already missed with any other dust collection you’ve already installed. It is not Point of source dust collection. Do you want to capture the dust before it gets in the air.
As others above have stated and correctly point out there are many options out there.
I also work out of a small single car garage approximately 16 x 22 or 350 ft.². Unfortunately it’s not a condition space or possible to do so since it’s a rented space and it only has one single 20 amp circuit coming in there for my choices of what I can run simultaneously is very limited.








when I am using this combination it works well for me at getting the course and really fine dust picked up. When I am doing sanding or very fine dust work I add a fine filter to inside the canister of the vacuum which and it’s fine particulate, micron what number I do not remember. This investment was less than $200 and help keep the shop a lot cleaner and general overall clean up significantly reduced. I do not have the space or power to have centralized dust collection systems..
Tools I attach it to are sliding miter saw, router router table, three different sanders, small tablesaw, scroll saw and more all the tools. Unfortunately most circular Saws do not have dust collection available to them. I have noticed that most of the good track saws do so. that will probably be my next major purchase.


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