# better to sharpen blades or replace?



## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

I've scored two planes recently. The first one is a 1990's Stanley #4. The second is a Stanley #6. Unsure of Era. It is made in the USA. It has Baily on the plane and Stanley on the lever cap. 

I've flattened the soles on both planes. The blades look really bad. Both have good chunks of the blade missing. I was wondering if it would be better to buy a replacement hock blade / chip breaker. (or the lie-nielsen blades? - any other suggestions on the blades? 

The #6 will primarily be used with a shooting board.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Really depends on what you have more of: time or money? A Hock blade will be a vast improvement, but if there is plenty of steel left and you have the time and ability to grind back a primary bevel you might just go ahead and do that first.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

Some of the blades, starting around WW2, had about an 1/8th-inch, of hardened steel at the tip. After you wear through the hardened tip, the blade will not hold an edge. 

I have never seen this written anywhere, but discovered it accidentally when I bought a WW2 era 4-1/2 that was in retry bad shape. It was in bad shape so I decided to sand blast it down to bare metal. There was a bit of rust on the blade, and I was considering a replacement anyway, so I went ahead and blasted it. There was a distinct band at the cutting edge that did not etch from the blasting, because it was considerably harder than the rest of the blade. 

Intrigued I took several other old blades and blasted them. Those that came from after WW2, all had a very hard, but narrow, front edge. The older blades had a wider hard band than the newer blades. But the hardened band also etched easier on the older blades, indicating that the hardening was not as well done, or the metallurgy/alloying were not as good. Which jives with the history of metallurgy, and manufacturing I learned in school.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## woodninja (Feb 12, 2012)

BUY THE NEW BLADE! Your plane will see a vast improvement. The Lie-Nielsen, Hock, or Lee Valley blades are thicker and thus eliminate chatter and the O-1 or A-2 steel is much better. It will hone to a better edge and hold that edge longer. Short of buying an upper end plane, replacing the blade is by far the best improvement you can make. You won't be disappointed. That's just my experience though.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I've used a pinnicle iron that I bought from Wood Craft. It is on par with the Hock irons that I use.


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

Wrangler said:


> I've used a pinnicle iron that I bought from Wood Craft. It is on par with the Hock irons that I use.


I've read this elsewhere, too. Anybody care to chime in? There is a price difference to speak of here if I'm not mistaken.



-Sorry, is that a hijack?


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

autre said:


> I've read this elsewhere, too. Anybody care to chime in? There is a price difference to speak of here if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> -Sorry, is that a hijack?


I don't consider discussing what's the best blade to replace the stock blade, in a thread about replacing blades hijacking.

If it is, hijack away. :thumbsup:


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

The Pinnnicle iron that I have is A2 and is in my 4 1/2 smoothing plane. One of the Hock irons is in the 5 jack that I use by far more than any other plane. They both sharpen well and seem to hold an edge equally. That being said, I have a #5 Bedrock with the origonal iron. In my experience, if it's a Bailey style plane and if the plane is properly tuned and if the iron is SHARP; chatter is not much of an issue with any of the three brands of iron. The remaining issue is edge holding, and I do sharpen the Stanley a bit more frequently.


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

I ordered the Hock High Carbon Blades. The penniciles looked to be a little more expensive.


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## JQMack (Sep 24, 2011)

I think you'll be happy with that. I recently replaced a blade in a Stanley No 7 with anew Hock blade and was amazed at the difference.


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

JQMack said:


> I think you'll be happy with that. I recently replaced a blade in a Stanley No 7 with anew Hock blade and was amazed at the difference.


This man speaks the truth.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

I'm convinced that a shockingly scant number of woodworkers has any idea how to sharpen cutting tools. 

Ask this question to those who can, ask the same question to those who can't and you'll get two different answers from each group :thumbsup:


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

Tools said:


> I'm convinced that a shockingly scant number of woodworkers has any idea how to sharpen cutting tools.
> 
> Ask this question to those who can, ask the same question to those who can't and you'll get two different answers from each group :thumbsup:


Well, the Hock Blade came wrapped in a piece of paper that said "SHARPEN ME!", with instructions on how to sharpen it. I put one in the smoothing plane really quick and took it to a piece of pine. Seemed pretty sharp. Then I broke out the water stones and and sharpened them both.


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## woodninja (Feb 12, 2012)

Tools said:


> I'm convinced that a shockingly scant number of woodworkers has any idea how to sharpen cutting tools.
> 
> Ask this question to those who can, ask the same question to those who can't and you'll get two different answers from each group :thumbsup:


Well now that is a profound statement! If you ask those who know how to perform brain surgery and those who don't, you will also get two different views. How about the scant few who do know how help teach those who don't. For those who don't know how, study the many different methods, practice to find what works for you, and you will open up a whole new world of woodworking.


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

woodninja said:


> ...For those who don't know how, study the many different methods, practice to find what works for you, and you will open up a whole new world of woodworking.


...And that's what makes life grand!


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

woodninja said:


> Well now that is a profound statement! If you ask those who know how to perform brain surgery and those who don't, you will also get two different views. How about the scant few who do know how help teach those who don't. For those who don't know how, study the many different methods, practice to find what works for you, and you will open up a whole new world of woodworking.


The point I was making is, for a hobby that relies so heavily on cutting tools, you'd think that virtually all participants would learn how to sharpen cutting tools as a prerequisite. 

Not only do we not see 'virtually all' participants learning these skills, but we see a 'shockingly scant' number of them doing so, relative to how important sharp cutting tools are to working wood. 

This results in a bizarre (albeit hugely favorable) economy in buying used tools for people who know how to sharpen an edge, take a wire brush and dress clogged file, remove a bit of surface rust or even purchase inexpensive unrefined-but-solidly-built import tools. 

I think a lot of this boils down to the relative prosperity in the west, where marketers have created (and we've accepted) a false, disposable culture. I guarantee there isn't a woodworker in the Ukraine or Rural China who doesn't know how to sharpen his plane irons and runs out to buy a new one every time his dulls :no:

I agree it's wise for everyone to determine what method works for them, learn how to do it well then run with it. Personally speaking, I've been sharpening with progressive grit abrasive paper since before the internet coined it as a 'method'. I always enjoy showing people how to make razors with sandpaper, but I'm not on any sort of crusade to teach people how to keep thei rtools in peak running order. All those .25 cent Nicholson files or the .10 cent garage sale Stanley Chisels might dry up


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Tools:

I believe that the only prereq for a hobby is a desire to enjoy. That said, I can't imagine much joy in using dull tools. I don't see anyone using hand tools (old, new, cheap or expensive) not eventually muddling through in one way or another to learn to sharpen. 

Those truely caught up in the disposable society buy their furniture at Ikea.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

If the blade has enough length to it, I would use the old blade, but you seem happy with your purchase.

Not so sure about the 1990's Stanley, but all my old Stanleys were purchased on ebay and are from around 1950's.

I'm set up to sharpen a plane iron in a couple of minutes though, so the time in between sharpening has never bothered me.

It's probably Placebo, but my old original Stanley blades seem to sharpen to a better edge than Nielsen A2, or Hock and they seem to cut better after sharpening. I have not tried the O-1 irons from Nielson.

If you are planing Pine though, anything goes.


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

WillemJM said:


> If the blade has enough length to it, I would use the old blade, but you seem happy with your purchase.
> 
> Not so sure about the 1990's Stanley, but all my old Stanleys were purchased on ebay and are from around 1950's.
> 
> ...


The issue wasn't so much sharping the blades, as it grinding them back far enough that this wasn't an issue:



> Both have good chunks of the blade missing.


If they were just dull I would have sharpened them. I had to sharpen the new blades anyway. I use stones to sharpen, so I think I've saved myself several hours, and maybe a few years on my water stones. 

I went with the 0-1s from Hock. So far so good, but i've only been using them to join really think stock.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Evilfrog said:


> The issue wasn't so much sharping the blades, as it grinding them back far enough that this wasn't an issue:
> 
> If they were just dull I would have sharpened them. I had to sharpen the new blades anyway. I use stones to sharpen, so I think I've saved myself several hours, and maybe a few years on my water stones.
> 
> I went with the 0-1s from Hock. So far so good, but i've only been using them to join really think stock.


Thanks for your post.

LOL my sharpening methods keep changing every 6 months or so, right now I dress the main bevel on a grinder with a water wheel and a sliding jig until the secondary bevel is gone (about 50 seconds) then I use a Lee Valley guide on a 750 diamond stone, literally 4 strokes, then about 5 strokes on 2000 water paper glued on a granite plate and then another 5 strokes on a 8000 water stone. A few swipes on the back of the blade on the 8000 water stone and I'm done.

I use to use water stones for the whole process, way back, but it was too much of a hassle to keep them flat, ensuring an accuracy of a 0.0005" (1/2 thousand) across the iron.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I doubt there is much interest here, but plain carbon steel can be purchased from Starrett and others, in many shapes- round, square, flat, and ect.
The steel can shaped with hand tools and or heated and forged, then hardened and tempered.
Old files are good carbon steel, can be anealed, reshaped in to other useful tools, then re-hardened and tempered.
All the info on doing that is just a few computer clicks.

An old plane iron that has been ground back past its hardened edge can reasonably be re-hardened and tempered using an Ox-Acet torch with a flame set to carborizing. then queched and drawn.

All that was common up to around 30yrs ago.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Benny Blanco said:


> I doubt there is much interest here, but plain carbon steel can be purchased from Starrett and others, in many shapes- round, square, flat, and ect.
> The steel can shaped with hand tools and or heated and forged, then hardened and tempered.
> Old files are good carbon steel, can be anealed, reshaped in to other useful tools, then re-hardened and tempered.
> All the info on doing that is just a few computer clicks.
> ...


Amazing how we have lost those skills through the decades. I can remember my dad doing that. He had a steel factory and use to make all his own tooling. In his woodshop, most of his machines were self manufactured, including a table saw, bandsaw, mortising machine, shaper, lathe. He made a machine to automatically sharpen his bandsaw blades.:shifty:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Benny, right on with the starret steel... That's what I'm using for irons on new moulding planes and refurbs.

Edit:
I only harden and temper the lower cutting edge as the upper portion should be a bit flexible.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Benny, right on with the starret steel... That's what I'm using for irons on new moulding planes and refurbs.
> 
> Edit:
> I only harden and temper the lower cutting edge as the upper portion should be a bit flexible.


What do you use to quench in and for tempering what temperature, or color do you aim for?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

WillemJM said:


> What do you use to quench in and for tempering what temperature, or color do you aim for?


I'm water quenching and aiming for a light straw to temper. Burry it in dry sand to slow cool after tempering. Seems to work pretty decent. BTW, using a high pressure propane burner as a heat source.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

firemedic said:


> I'm water quenching and aiming for a light straw to temper. Burry it in dry sand to slow cool after tempering. Seems to work pretty decent. BTW, using a high pressure propane burner as a heat source.


Cool!!

Post some pics of the end product, or if you have post a linky.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

WillemJM said:


> Cool!!
> 
> Post some pics of the end product, or if you have post a linky.


Now we HIJACKING! lol
See my post on making a moulding plane. I'll include more in depth pictures and info on the iron work when I make the next one. It's a new adventure for me. I also have to make a set of repro irons and knickers for a plow plane for the museum.

I have a scrub plane iron ready to be hardened and I'm considering having a go at a few bench plane irons. I'll keep y'all in the know on that when I get to it.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Now we HIJACKING! lol
> See my post on making a moulding plane. I'll include more in depth pictures and info on the iron work when I make the next one. It's a new adventure for me. I also have to make a set of repro irons and knickers for a plow plane for the museum.
> 
> I have a scrub plane iron ready to be hardened and I'm considering having a go at a few bench plane irons. I'll keep y'all in the know on that when I get to it.


Don't think it is a hijack, we are just adding a bit of heat to the discussion regarding sharpening, with orange color thrown in.:laughing:


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

As we bring the hijacking to a close I would just like to say:

Benny, I'm also very interested in the topic of metal working for wood working. It would be absolutely fantastic if you started a thread with some basic info, pointers to good online resources for more info, and for supplies. The discussion could be carried on there.

Back to your normal programming...


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Sounds like there is interest. Buy, Sharpen or "Make".

"Make" that is what sets me apart in the machine shop in these tougher times, I make many of my own machine cutters. I do use more modern tool materials to cut exotic alloys.
I do have heat treating equipment, and machine grinders that can produce most any shape.
When the machines cant do it, I do it by hand "like the old days".

I made these tools by hand in the old days, out of worn out files.
These tools are for final fitting of babbit bearings in huge saw mill planers, and other bearings, both babbit and bronze.
These tools will not win a beauty contest, they were made to a specific job, they worked well.
I used a coal fired forge to heat the old files, hammered them on an anvil to the basic shape.
Reheated the work up to the "critical temperature", where the steel becomes non magnetic.
Quenched in water, then the steels maximum hardness drawn down to working level, where as it will not chip or break, but hold an edge.
Then hand ground to the shape needed, cutting clearance and ect.
These tools could have just as well been shaped as wood chisels in any shape.
A forge can be mocked up in the back yard, with fire brick and an electric fan.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

WillemJM said,
Amazing how we have lost those skills through the decades. I can remember my dad doing that. He had a steel factory and use to make all his own tooling. In his woodshop, most of his machines were self manufactured, including a table saw, bandsaw, mortising machine, shaper, lathe. He made a machine to automatically sharpen his bandsaw blades.

That is something that really does get to me, I watched this happen.
Why this happened is, powerful people wanted it to happen.
The schools today are closing the wood shops, and other manual skills classes, this can be seen on auction sites like Public Surplus, if not in your own town.

Anyway, plain carbon steel makes fine wood working, and other tools, and is not that hard to do.
The only problem being, is a source of heat to bring the steel up to temperature for hardening.

firemedic brought up Propane, works good, but you must be very careful.
Ox-Acet torch works good on some things, again can be dangerous if not familar with those.
Coal forge works good, sort of hard to find coal these days, but probably the safest method.

Watch makers had it easy heat treating tiny parts and tools, using an alcohol lamp with a blow tube to get air on the flame for the needed heat.

I seen a link here on this site, to a fellow that makes nice chisels at close to $1000 for six or seven of them.
I thought, what if one just wasnt quite right----would one be willing to take the grinder to it?

Just me, I am not going to buy chisels that cost $160 each, when I can make one out of a probably free old file.

Another thing I noticed, is plane blades made of A2 tool steel "Air quenched steel". just never heard of that material used for an edge, often used for wear guides in sliding dies, good in abrasive conditions, but then again, I am new to woodworking.


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## autre (Jul 12, 2011)

-Another extraordinarily eye-opening and educational thread.

I love this place!


Benny, does this mean you would (were you to purchase) go with O1 blades for planing? Chisels? More info please! Spongey brain needs nourishing and wisdoms!


Lastly, and most frighteningly, I actually momentarily pictured myself in the backyard rigging up some sort of oast! 

-Momentarily.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Chisels and hand plane blades - definitely sharpen. If you have hit a nail or someone has used your wood chisel on bricks then I first grind a straight square edge at 90* to the wheel. I don't have a wet wheel and would not use one for this process. Once you have a straight edge then drop your grinding angle to 35* or what ever angle you use for your first edge. By using this method you are less likely to over-heat the blade so long as you keep dipping in water. As you get close to having an edge, if you have the luxury of a water wheel you might finish off with one of them. 

Hand saws - at trade school I learnt how to sharpen these by hand and set the kurf. I even made a new wooden handle for one. These days I just buy a throw away.

Circular saws - never sharpened one my self. Used to get them sharpened, now I would only sharpen an expensive blade which generally be over 12 inch or larger, the

Electric plane - throw away reversible tungsten blades. Set the depth once and you are set for life. Just slide them out and reverse or replace as the need may be

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

A Taig lathe with milling attachment is one of the handiest little toolmakers I've ever used. 

No, it is not the same thing as having a full shop but for those just wanting to cut their teeth with machining, those with limited space or those who don't anticipate expanding their interest beyond small scale/small item fabrication, they're pretty darn good to make small stuff.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

To keep from hijacking further I've started a new thread here:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/metalworking-woodworking-39647/#post344286

The "make your own" is a great topic and I'd love to hear more.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

autre said:


> -Another extraordinarily eye-opening and educational thread.
> 
> I love this place!
> 
> ...


So far, I just dont know for sure.
Most everything I have is really old. I do have some newer chisels that are alloyed with chrome and vandium maybe from the 60s, I can get them sharp. they work well.
I have some very old chisels that are just plain high carbon steel, I percieve that I can get them just a little sharper. Those old ones do work really good.

When I get around to it. I will buy a couple of new alloyed plane blades and see whats up with them.

Making your own tools without an inert gas shielding furnas, or wrapping the tool in special foil, plain carbon tool steels are much more forgiving and really easy to work with, verses air and oil hardening steels.
Oil hardening steels call for very close temperature control.

To get quickly back on topic, whatever blade is used, at some point its going to have to be re-sharpened.


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