# Bugs



## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

Hello,

I am somewhat new to woodworking and very new to milling my own lumber or my own small branches let's say  I live in San Diego where we have a lot of eucalyptus and some other random woods. There is a company here who can saw actual logs and I have a jig to make some boards out of 6" or less diameter log/branches. 

My main question is how to deal with bugs, either bugs I can see or bugs I can't see. One of my friends told me of a story of a bowl he lathed once only to have termites fly out of it when it was sitting on his desk at work. I definitely want to avoid that. 

Since this is mainly my own wood that I'm playing with, I don't have a kiln, so I would either be air drying this or dealing with wood that has been dead for many years already. I have seen one guy online talking about using a steam box and I have found others using a microwave. Do any of these or other techniques actually work, at least for pieces small enough that would fit in either of these devices? Or do I just need to succumb to the need to put all wood into a kiln in the end?

Thanks!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Bugs may or may not be an issue. Termites usually won't stay in wood if it's disturbed. The story your friend told must have been about someone that picked up wood off the ground and put it directly in a lathe. I cut and split firewood every winter and from time to time I split a log infested with termites and I just sit that wood aside for a week or so before bring it into the house.
Powder post beetles is what you need to watch for. They will get into any wood, wet or dry including your house and furniture. To determine if the wood has these stack and sticker the wood and let it sit for a week or so and then look for little piles of wood dust under it.


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## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

Thank you Steve. If I do find evidence of powder post beetles, is there anything easy I can do to get rid of them or would I just have to throw out that piece most likely? Do you think if the piece is small enough to fit in a microwave, would that do it, or does that otherwise damage the quality and/or look of the wood? I see some folks talking about microwaving, ovens and borate solution here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread...ying-amp-killing-bugs-in-small-pieces-of-wood but wanted to see thoughts on this here...

Thanks!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

eviglotti said:


> Thank you Steve. If I do find evidence of powder post beetles, is there anything easy I can do to get rid of them or would I just have to throw out that piece most likely? Do you think if the piece is small enough to fit in a microwave, would that do it, or does that otherwise damage the quality and/or look of the wood? I see some folks talking about microwaving, ovens and borate solution here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread...ying-amp-killing-bugs-in-small-pieces-of-wood but wanted to see thoughts on this here...
> 
> Thanks!


The wood really needs heat to get rid of bugs internally. Since you don't have a kiln you might use an insecticide made for termites. 

Until you find out of the wood may are may not be infected with bugs you better keep it away from your house, even if that means stacking it outdoors and covering it with a tarp. Saw mills just stack the wood outdoors with nothing covering it so you could do that for a week or two with no issues.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Bug Biology: All across the world's Temperate Zone, there are seasonal changes in temperature.
Here, where we have deep winter cold, the bugs can and do create chemicals for an almost "antifreeze" effect.

The changes are triggered by slowly dropping autumn temperatures. "Slowly dropping."

To kill bugs in wood, chill them faster than they can possibly cope with.
My food freezer is running at 20 below. 

In goes the wood for 48 hours. Out comes the wood for 48 hours to thaw.
Surprise, bugs! Back in the freezer for another 48 and out again.
Four or five of these cycles and they are done for.


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## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

Good to know from both of you. So here's a dumb idea, what about using indirect heat on my BBQ grill? I have 5 burners on my grill, so if the wood is small enough, I should be able to turn on other burners on low and not have direct flame to catch the wood on fire. This link above talked about "Sterilization of the lumber is normally done at the end of the drying cycle. The core needs to be heated to a miimum of 133 degrees for at least four hours...longer is better. You will need something around 160 degrees to get the core to 133 deg."

Any thoughts there? 

I would just prefer to not put it in my food oven or my food freezer, but my BBQ grill is already outside with other bugs anyway...

Fortunately being in San Diego, we barely ever get frost, and never colder than that, as it's a pretty moderate climate. 

Thanks!


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## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

And sorry, but just to amend my last post, if that quote above really is true that sterilization can be done with something around 160 degrees to get the core to 133 degrees, couldn't I also get that from my steam box/steam bending kit? Admittedly I don't need to bend the wood, but if I keep it flat, hopefully it won't be too messed up, but I just am thinking about this because the air is 220 degrees F whenever I use that puppy.

Thanks!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

eviglotti said:


> And sorry, but just to amend my last post, if that quote above really is true that sterilization can be done with something around 160 degrees to get the core to 133 degrees, couldn't I also get that from my steam box/steam bending kit? Admittedly I don't need to bend the wood, but if I keep it flat, hopefully it won't be too messed up, but I just am thinking about this because the air is 220 degrees F whenever I use that puppy.
> 
> Thanks!


But then you have a moisture problem. The wood will be very wet.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

eviglotti said:


> Good to know from both of you. So here's a dumb idea, what about using indirect heat on my BBQ grill? I have 5 burners on my grill, so if the wood is small enough, I should be able to turn on other burners on low and not have direct flame to catch the wood on fire. This link above talked about "Sterilization of the lumber is normally done at the end of the drying cycle. The core needs to be heated to a miimum of 133 degrees for at least four hours...longer is better. You will need something around 160 degrees to get the core to 133 deg."
> 
> Any thoughts there?
> 
> ...


The wood has to be heated that long so the temperature can get that high in the center of the wood. Otherwise the bugs won't know the wood was heated. I don't really know but I can't see cold working. A lot of bugs you could freeze in a block of ice and they would survive.


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## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

Tool Agnostic said:


> But then you have a moisture problem. The wood will be very wet.


Interesting point. I have always wondered though, if it takes a year per inch of wood to air dry green lumber and then you steam it for steam bending, it's not like you need another year to get the MC % back to normal right? I've done a little steam bending and that wood cools and stiffens in just a few minutes. But I may be oversimplifying :smile2:

Thanks!


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Not. You need to freeze/that, freeze/thaw, freeze/thaw. It's the cycling that I wrote about that's the killer.

Wood is fairly microwave transparent. All you need to do is hard-boil the bugs.
They won't jump out and run around, screaming. Chances are, you will see nothing.

The steam in steam bending is the heat-transfer agent. The EMC of the wood could be 12% - 15%.
The heat from the steam is transferred to the EMC wood water and that softens all the non-fiber stuff in the wood.
It's like plastic. The steam penetration will be no more than a millimeter or two.
The plastic softens. You cool that in some sort of a jig and it sets up in a new shape. Oak boat keels are like rubber!


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## eviglotti (May 15, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> The wood has to be heated that long so the temperature can get that high in the center of the wood. Otherwise the bugs won't know the wood was heated. I don't really know but I can't see cold working. A lot of bugs you could freeze in a block of ice and they would survive.


Steve, I was looking at this again and found this link: http://ucanr.edu/sites/WoodyBiomass/newsletters/FPL_Wood_Handbook33299.pdf

Sure seems like heat would do the trick, and it would seem like indirect heat on a grill or a steam kit would do this? Certainly the key is the center, but if it's only 1" thick or less, would seem like it wouldn't take that long to get that core to that temp. But am I totally thinking of this wrong? Wonder if there is some type of calculation or measurement on the core temperature of the board...

Thanks again for all the help on my posts the last week or so!


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Don't forget that we have in depth experience with which bugs can withstand very slow freezing 
and which ones (most) die of shock with repeated quick freezes.

As the definitive case in point, we have 18,000,000 hectares of standing dead pine 
from Mountain Pine Beetle attack, not worth the gas to cut it down.
A decade of mild winters is the proof.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

eviglotti said:


> Steve, I was looking at this again and found this link: http://ucanr.edu/sites/WoodyBiomass/newsletters/FPL_Wood_Handbook33299.pdf
> 
> Sure seems like heat would do the trick, and it would seem like indirect heat on a grill or a steam kit would do this? Certainly the key is the center, but if it's only 1" thick or less, would seem like it wouldn't take that long to get that core to that temp. But am I totally thinking of this wrong? Wonder if there is some type of calculation or measurement on the core temperature of the board...
> 
> Thanks again for all the help on my posts the last week or so!


Difficult to know how hot the wood would get in the center. I'm sure the people that kiln dry wood have taken different species of wood and different thicknesses and heated it at different times and cut the board in two and measured the temperature. I just wouldn't know the formula. You might PM Tennessee Tim to get a better answer on the subject. I just know that heat is the best method of sterilizing wood. Odds are if it was a living tree at the time it is cut down there isn't any bugs to worry about. It's mostly dead wood which gets infested. On my place I get termites and these black beetles. They are about 1 1/4" long.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Living conifers in the Boreal Forest Biome are attacked and killed as standing timber by bark beetles.
Subsequently, the dead wood is colonized by other wood boring insects and their larvae. 

Emerald Ash Borers. Did they not arrive from Asia inside the fresh wood used as the centers for a load of fake Christmas trees?

On a commercial scale, kiln-drying is an operational necessity and a bug-killer, besides.
Awkward to duplicate in back yards for small volumes.


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