# Toner to color match new / old kitchen cabinets



## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

Hello, 

We are adding cabinets to our existing kitchen. The cabinets are finished in a natural maple. The installed cabinets are about 3 years old, so we were able to get the same make, model and finish. But as I feared, the older cabinets have darkened so the new cabinets look very different. 

We have been thinking that we would have to paint, which would be unfortunate as everything is basically new and looks great. 

I've been reading about using a toner to try and color match the old and new cabinets. That sounds interesting and like perhaps less work that a complete repaint. But I am having a hard time figuring out if it really makes sense to do this and exactly what methods I should use. So I have a few questions if anyone has some experience with this.

First, I assume I need to spray on the finish. If that's right, would an HVLP sprayer be sufficient?

How should I go about prepping the wood we are going to try and tone? Obviously it needs to be clean and grease / dust free, but do I need to sand it or scuff it?

Very unclear about the dye and solvent to use. I've seen a lot of people talk about TransTint dyes. But some people mix with water, some with lacquer, some with other things. Whats the best way to go to get good results with that factory baked on finish on the cabinets now?

And finally, I assume I need to seal the cabinets once I have the new color set. What's the best way to do that?

Thanks very much for any input.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Before anyone can really help we would need a picture of the color difference. It's possible the wood color isn't the problem but the finish on your cabinets has yellowed. If this is the case normally you can reproduce the look with amber shellac. If it is the wood that has darkened you can darken the cabinets with dyes but it takes a lot of tinkering to achieve the right mixture. I'm experienced in finishing and I charge 2 hours labor extra just to mix the stain to match the color of cabinets like that. You would need some scrap maple and use your sprayer to apply the dye. Dyes work best when sprayed at low pressure. If you have a gravity feed sprayer it might be necessary to wash the gun out between dye changes. You just take your best guess on the dye mixture and put some on the scrap and then put a finish on it. It may be too dark or too light or the wrong tone and you go back to the dye and adjust it and try again and again until it matches. Not being experienced, don't be surprised if it takes you a couple of days tinkiering with the dye so try to be patient. 

Transtint is a good brand of dye but they don't have a very good selection of colors. I find it easier to use Ultra Penetrating Stain from Mohawk Finishing Products. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=178 This dye comes already pre-mixed and you thin it with dentured alcohol. If need be you can also mix the dye with a lacquer or shellac finish to alter the color. 

They don't bake a finish on wood. The bake on finish is a polyester powder that is melted onto metal in an oven at around 350 degrees. The best you can do on wood is a catalyzed finish such as a conversion varnish. The problem with two part finishes is they are very unhealthy for you work with. You really need an air supplied respirator to work with some of these finishes especially if they have an isocyanate hardener. A paint respirator only removes some of the paint that you breathe. It's like wearing a paper mask to sand wood. The mask gets most of it but you end up breathing some and a very small amount of isocyanate hardener will give you permanent lung damage. 

The finish I prefer to use on cabinets is a pre-catalyzed lacquer. The finish will remain clear and has a mild hardener in it that you can work with it with a conventional paint respirator.


----------



## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

Thanks for the great reply.

I'll get some pictures a little later as I cant get to everything right now. I think you may be right on the yellowing as the cabinets have gone more orange than brown. Because of that I should add that one thought I had was to go a bit darker / browner on all the cabinets, including the older ones. Not sure if that makes this easier or more difficult as I guess it wouldn't necessarily try and match the current finish. We still may go for the straight color match, but a shift to darker all around may be something we try and do if I think we can get decent results. 

I do have some scrap pieces to fool around with to try and get this right. Those Mohawk colors look very promising and likely far less trouble for me to get right and consistent. 

The baked on stuff was some nonsense that the cabinet sales person gave me when I said I wanted to change colors. She went on at length about how these things are baked on, catalyzed finish that would be impossible to cover or change unless I strip it to bare wood. Sounded like nonsense when she said that.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Kahuna said:


> Thanks for the great reply.
> 
> I'll get some pictures a little later as I cant get to everything right now. I think you may be right on the yellowing as the cabinets have gone more orange than brown. Because of that I should add that one thought I had was to go a bit darker / browner on all the cabinets, including the older ones. Not sure if that makes this easier or more difficult as I guess it wouldn't necessarily try and match the current finish. We still may go for the straight color match, but a shift to darker all around may be something we try and do if I think we can get decent results.
> 
> ...


It may be the cabinets were finished with the wrong kind of finish. A lot of finishes will yellow as they age and are not suited for light colored woods like maple. 

You can make considerable changes in the color of cabinets over the top of an existing finish using dyes. Dyes are mostly transparent so you really don't see it in the finish unless you try to make a too dramatic change in the color. It would be helpful recoating the cabinets if you could find out what kind of finish the cabinets have on them. Not everything bonds to everything else. If you can't go through channels and find out what finish is on the cabinets try wetting the cabinet in an inconspicuous place with lacquer thinner and see if the finish tries to dissolve. This would mean the finish would accept lacquer.

It appears I told you wrong about the baked on enamel. There are some places that do baked on enamel on wood cabinets. It's just something I'm unfamilar with and have no idea how they can do this without ruining the cabinet. It's called catalytic conversion varnish. The conversion varnish I'm familar with only uses a chemical hardener.


----------



## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

The cabinets are Schrock brand from Masterbrands. Basically the same as Diamond that seem to be more readily available. This is what I could find on their website about their finish. So yes it looks like the baked on thing is real. 

1. Wood Selection – The selection of the finest woods including Alder, Cherry, Hickory, Maple, Oak, and Rustic Alder is the essential first step
of Schrock’s 12-step finishing process.
2. Sanded to Perfection – Our sanding utilizes a fine grit paper, both with and against the wood grain. This process is completed on a
vacuum table, allowing for a wood surface that is free of dust particles.
3. Achieving Natural Wood Tone – Toner is applied to selected finishes, enhancing the naturalistic wood appearance.
4. Stain Application – A hand-sprayed deep penetrating stain is evenly applied to all surfaces for even coverage on all profiles.
5. Removal of Excess Stain – The wood is hand-wiped to remove excess stain, emphasizing the cabinet’s natural wood grain.
6. Catalyzed Sealer – A tough, clear, catalyzed sealer is hand-sprayed on to protect the grain from moisture.
7. Drying Process – For added durability, the sealed wood is oven cured to lock in the beauty of wood.
8. Hand-Sanded – To achieve an ultra-smooth finish, we hand-sand the material one last time.
9. Dust Removal – The resulting loose dust particles are removed from the surface of the wood.
10. Catalyzed Top-Coat – A premium quality catalyzed clear top-coat is applied to protect the wood from environmental elements.
11. Final Top Coat Cure – The top-coat is cured to guarantee the strongest, most beautiful finish.
12. Final Inspection – This last inspection is very thorough, ensuring quality and beauty. Our gift to you is that every cabinet is crafted with
care.

So far I'm having a hard time finding dyes locally at the Home Depot / Lowes. I'll try the lacquer thinner test here shortly and see what happens. 

Thanks


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> They don't bake a finish on wood.


Yes some companies do. The sales lady was likely telling the truth. In getting a match, or something very close will take experimenting. Start with a sample and test your mixes and apply a finish, and then you'll get a good idea.

I would start with first wiping down the cabinets with TSP (tri-sodium phosphate), which is a cleaning agent...available at HD. It will remove some contaminates that a solvent cleaner won't, like food substances and some greases. Or use a mild soap solution. When dry wipe down with Naptha. A light sanding with 220x - 320x.

You can mist spray your mix of an aniline dye in alcohol (methanol). This could be premixed or one you mix. It could be tint bases compatible with alcohol.

Another method would be to use a gel stain and follow directions. Careful application works well for a darker result. Or, you could add a tint base for your clear film finish. When sprayed lightly can work like a toner. I would use a waterbase polyurethane. It stays clear, fast dry, easy to spray, water cleanup, and not as toxic as lacquers. In any case it will take quite a bit of experimentation.


















.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Kahuna said:


> The cabinets are Schrock brand from Masterbrands. Basically the same as Diamond that seem to be more readily available. This is what I could find on their website about their finish. So yes it looks like the baked on thing is real.
> 
> 1. Wood Selection – The selection of the finest woods including Alder, Cherry, Hickory, Maple, Oak, and Rustic Alder is the essential first step
> of Schrock’s 12-step finishing process.
> ...


From the finish schedule you listed they don't mention any baked on finish so my guess is they are finished with a normal conversion varnish. If this is what is on the cabinets the lacquer thinner will probably do nothing. This doesn't mean you have to put conversion varnish over it, it would just alter the procedure a little going over it making the transition.


----------



## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

For what it's worth if the cabinets were indeed the same color when built, the difference in color is caused by UV exposure.
This means that whatever you do now to match the older ones, they will both still be exposed to further UV and will probably again change to different colors because the newer ones have a different finish.


----------

