# Choosing Woodworking Equipment,Tools & Machinery



## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

Often I see people within woodworking communities disagreeing on which brands of woodworking equipment, tools and machinery to use. 

It made me wonder how people new to woodworking ever decide. 

How do YOU choose which brands or models to purchase? 

Do you trust online reviews? Ask your friends?


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## bzguy (Jul 11, 2011)

*Buy American*

I got a lot of resistance to this from younger guys with newly bought stuff, but i still maintain that it is worth the search to find pre-Chinese, pre-outsourced labor American or European made machinery.
I recently used a Grizzly drum sander, the frame was cheap stamped sheet metal where cast iron would have been used, and there were oversized holes drilled into the perhaps 1/16" frame for the shaft with lever that you turn to change thickness. The entire cheaply manufactured gizmo flexed under minimal pressure, allowing the soft inferior metal gears to strip. Formerly this would have been bushings or bearings mounted in solid cast iron frame in an American made machine that would last 100 years.
These machines are getting scarcer as people realize their true value, but there are still some deals around that I surely would jump on.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I have never bought a tool over $200 new. I buy used equipment. My preferred choice is made in USA Powermatic. I have some older ( 2002 and older ) jet and grizzly tools that are actually pretty decent. The new jet and grizzly quality from what I have seen is much less.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I've learned most of what I know in the last 60 years from the school of hard knocks. Not the best way to learn but you never forget what they teach you.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I like old iron for some things, latest greatest for others. My 8' Oliver lathe (that I don't use and want to sell), Delta 24" scroll saw, King Seeley 12" bandsaw, and Boice Crane drill press are all from the late 40's to late 50's. The 32" Crescent bandsaw I had was from about 1909. These are all rock solid tools. 

But my PM 66, Delta & Powermatic jointers, DeWALT stationary belt/disc sander, and overarm router are all from about 1990 and they're also very stout, solid tools.

Then you get to my newer tools - Laguna 14 SUV and SuperMax 19-38, and there's no way I want older tools to replace those. But these are also rock sold, stout tools.

So I guess my tool shopping is not so much brand as it is heft, accuracy, and quality. I'm not brand agnostic - I _prefer_ Powermatic, Bosch, Freud, Starrett, etc., but not opposed to a different brand if it meets my needs.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

I trust a combination of online reviews, made both by companies (popular mechanics, fine woodworking, etc) as well as regular people (amazon and the like), as well as my hands on impressions. I dont buy tools without being able to put my hands on them and feel them out, see how the fit and finish is, how the doodads and gizmos work.

I never put any stock in brand or location of manufacturing. Ive used crap tools put out by 'good' brands, and some of the best tools ive used are made by the brands people love to hate. I feel anybody who claims that "you can only get a good tool from X brand" or "Only tools made in Y country are any good" generally have a lot more money to blow


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I've met some amazing woodworkers over the years. The truly talented woodworker can make outstanding projects with fewer tools than most of us have. They can make inferior tools perform with amazing results. They have learned each tool's capability and get the most from each of their tools.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Mix of new and used. Evaluate every acquisition on three things:
1) Cost
2) Condition (new, used, beat)
3) Usefulness (how often will you need it or will it pay for itself in some way after 1 or 2 jobs).

Just trying to get the most bang for the buck.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Anyone who would argue that Taiwan or China made tools are as good as the old USA made tools have clearly never had both side by side. This doesn't apply to powered hand tools.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

When I was first starting out in wood working I pretty well had to buy what I could afford. Some of the tools I bought were fair while others were so hard to use they were not worth fooling with. In a way it is good to buy lesser quality when starting out because you learn quickly what works and what don't. 

Example, I bought a router (popular brand by many on this forum), that thing vibrated so bad you tingled after using it for a little while. I bought the HHS bits and learned that they were pretty tricky to use. If I was going to use these bits, especially with a low quality router, I was going to have to learn some tricks and fast to come out with a product of any quality at all.

It was a great learning experience because when I did get a really good router and the good carbide bits, they were so easy to use it was unreal compaired to the lower quality one. It did make a better wood worker out of me.

After being in business for years, I learned to buy the best for the money, not the highest priced. A good place to read reviews for tools is Amazon, they can give you actual hands on advice. 

I did find that a lot of the older large tools were made best while some of the older smaller tools were not. 

If at all possible use the tool hands on and do the research, there are many different opinions of what works and what don't.


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

Cricket said:


> Often I see people within woodworking communities disagreeing on which brands of woodworking equipment, tools and machinery to use.
> 
> It made me wonder how people new to woodworking ever decide.
> 
> ...


The best furniture of the 18th century (or of any time in history) was made with all hand powered tools and you would be amazed at how few they used. I guess I'm just a old Luddite.:laughing:


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

punkin611 said:


> The best furniture of the 18th century (or of any time in history) was made with all hand powered tools and you would be amazed at how few they used. I guess I'm just a old Luddite.:laughing:


Now I know what a Luddite is; I had to look it up. 
Just last week, someone posted a video of furniture made in the 1700's for Russian Royalty. The veneering was absolutely outstanding. And the machinisms this man installed in his furniture was unbelievable. 
All made in a shop with probably poor lighting, unairconditioned, poorly heated, and with all hand tools. 
But, they may have completed only one project a year of this type. 
Still, it's now in the museum.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Anyone who would argue that Taiwan or China made tools are as good as the old USA made tools have clearly never had both side by side. This doesn't apply to powered hand tools.


To that I'd make the counterargument that I can make a table saw with a few bearings, some shafting and a sheet of plywood, and use it to make furniture that's just as good as something made with a powermatic. Its not the tools you have, nor is it the maker, its how they're used. A good old USA made table saw isn't going to work any better than a good, modern Taiwan made tool.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Years ago I started buying Craftsman. Why? Because they were the only game in town.  I was only going to buy machines that I could touch and handle. Still feel this was. I am a "touchy feely" person and generally only purchase products that I am at that time in contact with or have had some contact in the past.

I do shop the internet, but in most cases I have identified what I want before ordering.

I have continued with Craftsman because my earlier purchases were successful and I saw no need to change. For the amount and type of work that I do I have no need to spend big bucks on some expensive tool.

George


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

GeorgeC said:


> Years ago I started buying Craftsman. Why? Because they were the only game in town.
> 
> I do shop the internet, but in most cases I have identified what I want before ordering.
> 
> George


+1 What George said.

The Craftsman corded tools (circ saw, router, jig saw, drill, etc) must have been good ones because they all got stolen from a storage building (under lock and key) in the mid 1980's. :furious:

I guess I am the guy that is middle of the road when it comes to tools. As I look around, I see more black and yellow tools on my shelves than others. I guess I have had good luck with them and they haven't broke down.

Then there is the Makita 7 1/4 inch circ saw. It is a good one. :thumbsup: Bostitch nail gun and crown stapler. Two Bosch 1617EVS routers, Dewalt 611 compact router, and a Triton 3 1/4 hp table mounted router.

And a Grizzly 1023 table saw, 14 inch band saw and a drum sander. A Jet brand 6 inch joiner from the 1990's and a fairly new DeWalt 12 inch planer (also bought new).

So, I am not brand specific. I forgot about clamps. I have a dozen of more 6 inch and 12 inch HF "F" style clamps. They get used a lot and never have failed. Cheep too!

A lot of my equipment was made possible when I sold a portion of my sports photography equipment. You guys complain about equipment prices. PFFT! Try $4100 for a camera body or $3800 for a lens. Other lenses ranged from $1200 to $2100. So yeah, I have had some good equipment to work with in the past.

So, even with some money to work with, I still read reviews from a lot of people on the internet forums and Amazon before making any buying decisions.

On a sad note, I miss that big white lens! :yes: And ten frames per second!


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

I dunno, I'm weird. Some tools I'll only buy old, some are only good new. Some stuff technology has helped, others have been cheapened by building to a price. 

New tools would include anything cordless, routers, hand sanders, etc. Old stuff would be pretty much anything stationary (jointer, planer, table saw, drill press, etc.). Stuff technology hasn't necessarily made it work better. How can you make a circular blade spin better? But the tables used to be made of solid tungsten and recycled locomotives, which they don't now for some stupid reason. 

As far as brands, I've got stuff by Delta, Craftsman (old only), DeWalt, Milwaukee, Festool, Porter Cable, and Dremel. Some of it I sought out, some of it found me.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Peopłe who have been using electric tools for many years should be able to make a recommendation regarding both tool brands and models.
I feel qualified to recommend two brands which have been very good for me: Bosch and Makita. 
On the other hand, I cannot recommend Delta for a bench top disc/belt sander or for their 14" bandsaw which I consider very poor.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I second Bosch. Almost every powered hand tool I have is Bosch, and I have never had a problem. Before Bosch I had mostly Porter Cable and ALL of the batteries failed. Before the Porter cable it was almost all cheap stuff like black&decker which all with the exception of the chop saw died. I have several Porter cable tools with a cord which have been excellent, but in my experience their cordless tools suck. I have a Delta strip sander/disk sander which has functioned as expected. It was a huge improvement over the Harbor freight one.


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

Toolman50 said:


> Now I know what a Luddite is; I had to look it up.
> Just last week, someone posted a video of furniture made in the 1700's for Russian Royalty. The veneering was absolutely outstanding. And the machinisms this man installed in his furniture was unbelievable.
> All made in a shop with probably poor lighting, unairconditioned, poorly heated, and with all hand tools.
> But, they may have completed only one project a year of this type.
> Still, it's now in the museum.


I have no doubt it was, and he used hide glue to put it together with! :thumbsup:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> hwebb99 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who would argue that Taiwan or China made tools are as good as the old USA made tools have clearly never had both side by side. This doesn't apply to powered hand tools.
> ...


 Have you ever used a powetmatic table saw or any tool made by Powermatic it even seen one? What kind of table saw do you have? I bet is not a homemade crapper like you described. Who said in this thread that you have to have a shop full of made in USA tools to make anything? This argument is solely about tool quality. If you can throw together a homemade table saw that has an accurate fence and the blade runs with no runout then my hat is off to you. You can't, so almost any store bought table saw even if it was made in Taiwan does work better.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I go by weight, the heavier the better.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Have you ever used a powetmatic table saw or any tool made by Powermatic it even seen one? What kind of table saw do you have? I bet is not a homemade crapper like you described. Who said in this thread that you have to have a shop full of made in USA tools to make anything? This argument is solely about tool quality. If you can throw together a homemade table saw that has an accurate fence and the blade runs with no runout then my hat is off to you. You can't, so almost any store bought table saw even if it was made in Taiwan does work better.


Mind explaining just how what table saw I use invalidates my point, or how you know I'm unable to make a decent tool? You also missed my point. The point I made was that if a machine works well, it doesnt matter where it was manufactured. 

My Chinese made delta table saw with 0 runout at the arbor doesn't spin a blade any better or worse than your american made powermatic with 0 runout at the arbor. Saying anything not made in america is of inferior quality is misleading at best


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Mind explaining just how what table saw I use invalidates my point, or how you know I'm unable to make a decent tool? You also missed my point. The point I made was that if a machine works well, it doesnt matter where it was manufactured. My Chinese made delta table saw with 0 runout at the arbor doesn't spin a blade any better or worse than your american made powermatic with 0 runout at the arbor. Saying anything not made in america is of inferior quality is misleading at best


 Have you ever tried to machine something as precise as a table saw arbor? It is a lot harder than it looks. You would have far better luck mounting a circular saw upside down. There is more to a table saw than running with zero runout. Have you ever used any made in USA Powermatic equipment? I could machine an arbor to within .001 but that is probably still not good enough for a table saw arbor.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm with Warner, if you want well made machinery buy the antique stuff. It may need a little TLC but is well worth it.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> Have you ever tried to machine something as precise as a table saw arbor? It is a lot harder than it looks. You would have far better luck mounting a circular saw upside down. There is more to a table saw than running with zero runout. Have you ever used any made in USA Powermatic equipment? I could machine an arbor to within .001 but that is probably still not good enough for a table saw arbor.


Again, mate, youre avoiding the point i raised, although apparently it was my fault for including a humorous anecdote in my original point. The point that i raised was that theres nothing making an american machine inherently better than a foreign produced machine, assuming both are in good working order, and claiming that 


hwebb99 said:


> Anyone who would argue that Taiwan or China made tools are as good as the old USA made tools have clearly never had both side by side.


Kindve ignores that fact that if tablesaw x and tablesaw y both spin the blade well, neither is inherently better because of the manufacturer. 

Again, for clarity, the point i was raising that if a tool work, and works well, it doesnt matter where it was manufactured, and that claiming that 'the new stuff is junk, if you want a good tool you need this 40 year old powermatic thatll run you a couple grand if you can even find one' does nothing but scare off the newbies looking to dip their toes into woodworking and checking out this thread to see what they should look for in a tool. 

One last thing, i promise, have you ever stuck a DTI to a powermatic arbor flange? Actual curiosity, but only because id bet dollars to donuts that theres at least a thou of runout at the arbor, even if its brand new, and possibly more than that for an older saw


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## Oakwerks (Mar 24, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> Years ago I started buying Craftsman. Why? Because they were the only game in town. I was only going to buy machines that I could touch and handle. Still feel this was. I am a "touchy feely" person and generally only purchase products that I am at that time in contact with or have had some contact in the past.
> 
> I do shop the internet, but in most cases I have identified what I want before ordering.
> 
> ...


I did the same thing in the mid-80s when I was starting out.... Craftsman sold very good machine tools of their own design... I only recently retired the table saw.... It's for sale at Peachtree Woodworking, in Atlanta...
But it, the RAS, joiner, grinder, and the other Craftsman tools I own have been with me many years....
I don't buy Grizzly because the nearest showroom is 900 miles away, and I also want to touch what I'm buying....


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Again, mate, youre avoiding the point i raised, although apparently it was my fault for including a humorous anecdote in my original point. The point that i raised was that theres nothing making an american machine inherently better than a foreign produced machine, assuming both are in good working order, and claiming that Kindve ignores that fact that if tablesaw x and tablesaw y both spin the blade well, neither is inherently better because of the manufacturer. Again, for clarity, the point i was raising that if a tool work, and works well, it doesnt matter where it was manufactured, and that claiming that 'the new stuff is junk, if you want a good tool you need this 40 year old powermatic thatll run you a couple grand if you can even find one' does nothing but scare off the newbies looking to dip their toes into woodworking and checking out this thread to see what they should look for in a tool. One last thing, i promise, have you ever stuck a DTI to a powermatic arbor flange? Actual curiosity, but only because id bet dollars to donuts that theres at least a thou of runout at the arbor, even if its brand new, and possibly more than that for an older saw


 You have avoided my question twice. Have you ever used any piece of made in USA Powermatic equipment? There is more to a table saw than spinning a blade. Would you compare a BMW to a 1980 Chevy and say well they both drive so they are equal quality? Or compare a 1/2 million dollar house to a shed and say they both keep you dry in a rainstorm?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Here is a comparison between my Jet 1642 lathe and my made in USA Powermatic 3520. The Powermatic has a Baldor motor and inverter. It has a wide belt on aluminum pulleys. The outside castings are finished nice and smooth. The machining on the bed is top notch. It weighs close to double what the Jet does. The Jet has a no brand motor and a delta inverter. There was no extra care given to the castings. The jet also has nice aluminum pulleys, but much narrower. The bed is finished pretty good, but the 14 year newer Jet at the turners club is horrible. The locking mechanism in the jet Banjo, tailstock, and headstock was horrible. They all three broke. I made new parts that were much heavier duty and out of real steel. The Powermatic locking mechanism is vastly superior. They both spin wood, but the quality is not even close to equal.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Here is a comparison between my Jet 1642 lathe and my made in USA Powermatic 3520. The Powermatic has a Baldor motor and inverter. It has a wide belt on aluminum pulleys. The outside castings are finished nice and smooth. The machining on the bed is top notch. It weighs close to double what the Jet does. The Jet has a no brand motor and a delta inverter. There was no extra care given to the castings. The jet also has nice aluminum pulleys, but much narrower. The bed is finished pretty good, but the 14 year newer Jet at the turners club is horrible. The locking mechanism in the jet Banjo, tailstock, and headstock was horrible. They all three broke. I made new parts that were much heavier duty and out of real steel. The Powermatic locking mechanism is vastly superior. They both spin wood, but the quality is not even close to equal.


Would you mind posting the prices of both machines? Quite pertinent, don't you think?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I have about the same in both machines combined and a truck load of tools as a new Jet 1642 cost.


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Well, I guess with all that said, I'm not sure if I even fit in. I started out 15 yrs ago w/a used Craftsman RAS, router & a few bits, electric drill & a few bits, a hammer, and a single speed scroll saw. The RAS finally bought the farm, & I wore out the scroll saw, but they have both been replaced. I guess I would have to agree with Mort. I'm an old tool sorta feller. Yes, I do own a few newer tools, but, most of my tools are old enough, I don't need a 10 year college education in computers & electronics to work on them. I have several Craftsman tools, some Grip Rite nail guns, a couple Hitachi tools, my main scroll saw is a 220 VS Hawk. My Craftsman 8" ts is older than I am. I've got a Grizzly 12 1/2" planer, a delta 6" jointer. The main idea is, I bought what I could afford, & replaced w/better as I improved my skills & abilities. Don't you kinda think it's best to start with a little cheaper tools startin' out? At least until you get your feet wet, & decide that woodworking is really what you want to pursue? Why drop $$$$ into tools if you're not going to use them? JMO.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Alchymist said:


> Would you mind posting the prices of both machines? Quite pertinent, don't you think?





hwebb99 said:


> I have about the same in both machines combined and a truck load of tools as a new Jet 1642 cost.


You missed the point - when it comes to comparing quality between the two machines, it's not how much you paid for a used machine, but what the two machines initially cost. From a quick scan across Google, looks like the Powermatic's current price is in the $4000 range, while the Jet is about half that.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Imagine that, 3phase motor, controlled by a vfd, run off single phase power. Whoda thought.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

sawdust703 said:


> Don't you kinda think it's best to start with a little cheaper tools startin' out? At least until you get your feet wet, & decide that woodworking is really what you want to pursue? Why drop $$$$ into tools if you're not going to use them? JMO.


Mmm, yes and no. Of course it's ridiculous to watch a few woodworking Y'allTube videos and then go out and fill your garage with a bunch of Powermatics and Festools. 

But conversely, if you go nuts at Harbor Freight or the Black and Decker section of Craigslist, you'll be so frustrated with the poor quality, vibration, and lack of features that you'll give up. I find the hobby isn't much fun if you're constantly fighting your tools. 

The reason I go for older stationary tools is they tend to be better built. They had American steel, which is much better than Chinese steel. The extra heft reduces vibrations. It's not because they're cheaper, although that is an added benefit.


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

I agree, Mort! But how long can you sit in front of the computer, lookin' at utube videos, trying to decide where to start, & with what? To heck with that noise! There are still libraries with books. And yes, to go nuts at harbor freight or the black & Decker section is kinda stupid, too. And not all of us can afford powermatics, nor have a use for festools. My point was, why drop every penny of your budget into a couple of fancy tools, & then figure out WW ain't as much fun as you thought? Then them tools just collect dust until ya decide to sell them, or use them again? The fact of the matter is Mort, IMHO, every WW has to get started with tools of some sort. What they choose to go with is their business. I heard ALOT of nasty things about Craftsman when I started out, & still do. But, I'm not a production type set up, so they work well for me. DeWalt that everyone is so proud of, I wouldn't waste the gas money to bring their junk home, much less have it in my shop! I've used it in construction work, job sites, etc. Its not for me. I buy my tools the same way you do, Sir. I've got to be able to see it, handle it, hear it run. The heavier the better. That's my personal choice.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Alchymist said:


> You missed the point - when it comes to comparing quality between the two machines, it's not how much you paid for a used machine, but what the two machines initially cost. From a quick scan across Google, looks like the Powermatic's current price is in the $4000 range, while the Jet is about half that.


 You can't buy a new made in USA Powermatic 3520. They moved to Taiwan about 15 years ago, making your only option to buy used.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> You can't buy a new made in USA Powermatic 3520. They moved to Taiwan about 15 years ago, making your only option to buy used.


So what did your "used" Powermatic sell for new?


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Alchymist said:


> So what did your "used" Powermatic sell for new?



I don't have any idea? Worth every penny of whatever it was?


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## Tippo (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi All,
The handle is George,
Served my time as a bench hand joiner 62yrs a joiner + 7yrs
apprentice I have a good array of hand tools but I like Makita
machinery having in 1995 I won £750 of Makita Heavy duty machines in 
"The Woodworker" and was presented them by the head man
here in the uk. Mr John Gaskin, all good heavy duty machines, 
My fav's hand tools are A Bedrock 607 and a Henry Diston half rip saw, a Norris shoulder plane and a Speirs of Ayr shoulder plane that
I inherited from the boss I served my time under three jobs in my life time and enjoyed every one. My machinery is mainly Kitty, and 
and a Sagar morticer. 
My workshop you need climbing equipment to get in.
A great Forum.
Thank you.


Cheers
Tippo.:devil:.UK.


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## BernieL (Oct 28, 2011)

This is a sensitive issue and I think I can walk the fence here since I've been on both sides of it.

I started woodworking many years ago and spent most of the years as a weekend warrior building functional items and fixing up the house. During my formative years, I used an old craftsman 8 inch table saw and an assortment of used tools. I struggled with them but I got by. I still have some of that old functional furniture. In the late 90's, I attempted replacing my cellar door and I was trying to use a Craftsman jig saw that I had bought in the early 90's. I could not cut a straight line and got frustrated and angry. I concluded that I needed new better tools or find a different hobby. 

For the next 10 years, as I was approaching my retirement years, I decided that I would invest in good quality tools because I knew I liked WW. I told my wife I would stop buying coffee and donuts and I would pocket my break money to buy tools. In 2001 I dug out the crawl space under my barn and built my workshop. I bought good quality tools for the next 10 years and retired at the end of 2009.

I am no longer a weekend warrior and have graduated to a craftsman. My furniture builds are not only functional but are family heirlooms. 

Too conclude: not all tools are created equal. Look at these 3 ts miters. The 1st one is a decent Craftsman with a pin to lock in at 90 and 45 degrees. But it wiggles a bit in the ts miter slot.

The 2nd miter is more expensive but it accurately locks in at multiple common angles and it has 2 set screws to eliminate the wiggle in the ts miter slot.

The 3rd miter is the most expensive of the 3 but the angles are accurate and if you discover that your stock is off a bit, you can split the accurate angles by a hundredth of a degree using the smaller scale. This miter also has the set screws. The icing on the cake is the long scale and sliding stop so I can accurately cut multiple equal and accurate lengths. 

But our fiscal reality dictates and guides us through our tool purchases. I raised 4 sons and I know what it's like to settle for less quality tools but I'm happy to say times are easier for me.


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## RMckee47 (Jan 22, 2013)

When starting woodworking in the late 1970's I bought a US made Rockwell radial arm saw that would not hold a setting. It was the worst quality tool I have ever owned.

I have read that the key is good design and good on-site quality control regardless of whether the factory is in the U.S. or Asia. I believe that is true. My cabinet saw is a U.S. made Powermatic 66, but I also use Saw Stop saws at open workshop class and find their overall quality to be high and the blade & splitter set-up superior to the PM. Saw Stop is manufactured in Taiwan.

On the other hand, Porter Cable hand tools went to hell when they moved to China...


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## Piper101 (Mar 23, 2012)

*Piper101*

When I was 14 my Dad bought us a used Shopsmith. I had learned how to turn on a neighbors Powermaic Lathe. So I put (4) 75 lb. sacks of sand on the base of the thing and started turning away. I turned several sets of 8" diameter legs, 4' long; and built numerous hope chests, bowl sets, etc. off that thing. If anyone has, or has used a Shopsmith, they'll know that's no small feat. It's still one of the better Drill Presses I've used.

I've since re-built several Oliver table saws, and a couple Powermatic Lathes. I guess the point I'm trying to make is do whatever you've got to do to get started Wood working. You won't need anyone to tell you what's good or bad, or even in between. You'll make do with the money you have to spend. Every time I sold a piece of furniture I would put that money in the bank to spend on tools.

I'm now 62, and have a pretty good selection of tools easily in the plus 100K mark. I've made more furniture pieces than I can remember, some given to relatives, and some sold. All my Woodworking tools have been bought from Woodworking, from the time I was about 15. I've worked both professionally, and as a hobby.

I will tell you one thing, I own a 2015 Oliver 12" tablesaw, and I wouldn't trade it for all three re-furbished Oliver's combined. Ya, the older tools are heavier, but they're no more accurate, and, at least from a professional stand point, any more proficient. Unfortunately weight doesn't make the Woodworker, or the dollars.

If you've been in Woodworking for a while, then look at the tool and read user's reviews. If not, find a friend that can help you with the decision making. Usually in the final analysis, finances dictate the purchase.


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## tom d (Oct 23, 2013)

I started woodworking and buying equipment about 6 years ago as a neophyte. I got undersold on too many things and bought through a Woodcraft. I think they were a little afraid to trust I would use it and didn't want me badmouthing for overselling.
When I realized I needed bigger stronger equipment I searched, often without luck, for used. Some I've found. 
I actually wish I could have found a nice recent Felder Combination Saw, Jointer/planer in a 16 inch size, but I bought Powermatic 15ss, and their 8 inch jointer. Of course there is one nearby this year in Indiana when it's too late. Bought a 16/32 sander only to have a used 32 inch Woodtech show up a year later too. 
School of hard knocks as stated above.


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## JDWoodworks (Dec 20, 2015)

I had a guy I was doing work with tell me that when looking at reviews to look at the 2,3, and 4 star and some of the 5 star reviews. He said that the people that post 1 star reviews are most likely people who have no clue what they are doing.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've been fortunate enough to have work in several states over the years using various brands of equipment. It makes it easier to know what works and what doesn't.

A lot of hand tools are made cheap but work well but don't stay that way with the increase in price of materials to make them. Eventually making them cheaper with poor quality and eventually a bad name. Making the prior made tools of quality vintage and sometimes costing more than they were new.

Example of things I've noticed recently...

We purchased black pipe for around 15 new jorgensen clamps. The threads on most have broken off with pressure. Never had this problem in the past. The older pipe still intact.

Newer Senco staplers are using a universal nose piece. If you open the the nose you'll notice a 1/4 stapler with a 3/8 nose piece. One nose piece used in 2 different gun.

Once quality products made to be cheaper and throw away.

So....When you question a high priced hand tool or power tool research the "why" the high price. But high prices don't always mean better.....


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

Toolman50 said:


> I've met some amazing woodworkers over the years. The truly talented woodworker can make outstanding projects with fewer tools than most of us have. They can make inferior tools perform with amazing results. They have learned each tool's capability and get the most from each of their tools.


I agree wholeheartedly, If you have examined good 18th century federal furniture you see they used few tools. Go to Williamsburg and see the old woodworking shop. We aren't half the woodworkers they were.


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## BernieL (Oct 28, 2011)

Sooo TRUE - we are not half the woodworkers they were and I'm personally not a quarter. But they didn't have to go off to another daily job and live the modern life style of commuting time, kids game schedule, grocery shopping and the list could go on. The historic woodworker started his profession at a young as an apprentice. He did the menial jobs for years while watching and learning from the master. After 7 years on the job' he might get his 1st big opportunity to sharpen a simple chisel...

Fast track to modern times and face our reality. Most of us are hobbyist. Even our fellow professional posters have a different realty then the old masters. Lets compare general contractors (folks who build homes and remodel). In the 18th century, general contractors built homes for neighbors... they lived in the town they worked in. They had to go the extra mile to protect their reputation directly associated to them. Fast forward to today. General contractors don't have the luxury of that personal contact. In order to survive as a gc - you need to build homes quick and efficiently and move on to your next job. You hire workers you don't know... you have to sub-contract concrete work - electricians - etc. Yes, modern day gc's still have a reputation to protect - but because so many other factors are involved with their business - building schedules have become a large factor in their gc survival.

Personally... I've been retired for 6 years and I want to build good quality now. Before my retirement, I was a wood banger. I had a full time job... raised 4 sons... worked at my now 40 year old marriage, was Scout Master for T122 etc. etc. Now I consider myself a craftsman. My retirement has been a factor in my graduation from wood banger to Craftsman... but I'm still extremely busy living my modern life. I'm still involved in Scouting - I volunteer for the food pantry 1 day/week - I cook and do our house work (my wife is still working) and I'm involved with family and grad kids etc. 

So good quality tools over cheap knock-offs are very important to me! They play a roll in my making real family heirlooms over rough weekends builds. A quick example... I sometimes use good quality furniture grade plywood. Try cutting a straight 8ft line using a $30 skill saw. I couldn't do it. So I bought an expensive Bosch skill saw with a higher amp rating and I now cut straight 8ft cuts in furniture grade 3/4 inch plywood. That's my reality!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Imagine that, 3phase motor, controlled by a vfd, run off single phase power. Whoda thought.



They run just a little hotter.


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## rcp612 (Mar 25, 2008)

As to be expected, some people are taking a simple posting to the limts. There may be some value here someplace but, I'm not going to sift through the "chest-thumpers" to find it. :sad:


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> On the other hand, I cannot recommend Delta for a bench top disc/belt sander or for their 14" bandsaw which I consider very poor.


You must be talking about a fairly new Delta band saw. Mines 65 years old and in my opinion, a great band saw.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Pirate said:


> You must be talking about a fairly new Delta band saw. Mines 65 years old and in my opinion, a great band saw.


Most of my tools have some age on them, the Delta bandsaw is 2004 I think.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Toolman50 said:


> Most of my tools have some age on them, the Delta bandsaw is 2004 I think.


I knew it must have been a newer saw.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm all for made in the US as much as possible, there is nothing that says just being stamped 'Made in the US' that guarantees anything. 
Anyone who was ever in the market for cars in the 70s and 80s knows that many of the automobiles sold in that time were plain junk so the Japanese companies moved in to fill the void with what at the time called rice burners, but the quality was quite often superior. I owned an old Celica that was rust from bumper to bumper, but the engine and transmission were top notch and never gave me any problems. The Ford's and Chevy's of the same era..well you all know the story.. 
I think that the majority of us get by with whatever we can afford which quite often is made in China or Taiwan and sometimes that's fine and they work, sometimes not so much. 
Right now I buy what I can afford because I simply don't have the money to go out and snatch up Powermatic or some of the other high dollar machines, but I do avoid as much as possible the cheap Harbor Freight tools unless it's something I need now knowing full well it'll perform and likely not last a year, but do the job in a pinch.
I'm not privy to everything sold in the Taiwanese nor Chinese market, but I assume that within their countries they have higher end machinery not marketed here and the same probably holds true for most established markets.
For now I get what I can afford, no more, no less. Sometimes I hold off looking for good used equipment on craigslist and other sources, but I don't have unlimited time and access and quite often I'll see a great deal there, but it's too far away or I simply don't have the money at the time..


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

It's worth noting that almost all Powermatic tools have been made in China or Taiwan for quite a few years. They started bringing in all the parts and assembling them here. Then went to complete import of about everything except maybe a few planers. Quite a few years ago I bought a PM26 shaper to do one thing, run a 1/4" groove for drawer bottoms. There was lots of run-out in the arbor. I finally sold it and bought a nice used Gomad tilt. I had a Unisaw that was Ok but had considerable run-out on the arbor and a poor design for the tilt. Replaced that with a new SawStop made in Taiwan. A much better saw. I prefer European made tools now. I made my living with my tools. That is much different than someone using them as a hobby. The Taiwanese have gotten pretty good at making tools, the Chinese will also. But if you must buy at the cheap end don't expect to get great quality, but maybe good enough. See my review of the Incra router lift for a quality tool. Old Sears and Monkeyward tools were generally OK. Sears were Emerson & MW were commonly Delta rebranded. Cheap tools are made because people buy them.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Thought I should add this: In the early 70s I bought a new Rockwell Delta 14' bandsaw. It's early history was one of many frustrations. The motor failed in 2 months, I replaced it with a stronger one. The motor mounting plate was too weak and vibrated horribly, I reinforced it. The Vee belt pulleys both broke and I replace the pot-metal one and the stamped steel one with cast iron. The Vee belt had failed and when I was replacing the pulleys I put on an industrial grade one, still on there. The pot metal blade guides failed. I tried resawing 5" with a 3/4" resaw blade and the frame shook so much I quit. This saw was used every day. Might have been an OK hobby level saw but not for regular work. I now also have a cheap ($400 used) Italian made 17" saw that works fine.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

In an ideal world we would all have access to the greatest tools and have someone skilled at using them to teach us all about their proper use and so on, but unfortunately we don't live in that world or at least the vast majority of us don't. 
Most of the stuff online is how to make the best of what we have available to us and there's a lot of fluff in there to just sell us on junk.
When I think about the ww market I think about the mall huksters who used to demonstrate those old kitchen magician devices that slice and dice and do everything perfect every time or until you plop down your money and get it home then suddenly it's just another piece of junk taking up space under the sink..AS SEEN ON TV! The ww market is filled with that stuff too. Actually the internet has put the As seen on TV to shame. There's no shortage of people willing to convince you that you can build family heirlooms all day long with just a paper clip and some duct tape. It's the ol shortcut to success switch aand nd bait and I think most people are more than willing to believe it works exactly as advertised. The road to ww success is probably littered with a lot of these devices and there's probably far more people who just give up out of disappointment than people who slog through trial and error and finally figure it out. I'd love to report to you all that I never bit, but I'm generally not a liar..
I still have the POS harbor freight drill press and it still pokes holes in things for me. 
As I type this I'm looking at that very same drill press right beside the very nice Stanley #6 plane and wondering just how and why these two pieces of ww equipment ended up in the same room at the same time..
The truth is I don't know, but eventually one will end up in the trash and the other probably get handed down to my son or grandson and hopefully become used the way it was intended to be used, but I really don't know the answer to that..
I started off my ww fantasies with the notion that someday I'd have unlimited funds to have the best tools a man could ever want or need, but reality has this way of smacking me in the head every now and then and so I get by and occasionally I actually realize that I have limitations. One of those limitations is my inability to generate a sufficient cash flow to support all of my fantasies.. I suspect most of you fall somewhere between flat broke and filthy stinking rotten rich.. I'm closer to the the former than the latter.. If I could go back in time I'd never buy the junk tools and save up for only good quality stuff,but I'm stuck in the time warp that keeps me in possession of said junk..


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Piper101 said:


> When I was 14 my Dad bought us a used Shopsmith. I had learned how to turn on a neighbors Powermaic Lathe. So I put (4) 75 lb. sacks of sand on the base of the thing and started turning away. I turned several sets of 8" diameter legs, 4' long; and built numerous hope chests, bowl sets, etc. off that thing. If anyone has, or has used a Shopsmith, they'll know that's no small feat. It's still one of the better Drill Presses I've used.
> 
> I've since re-built several Oliver table saws, and a couple Powermatic Lathes. I guess the point I'm trying to make is do whatever you've got to do to get started Wood working. You won't need anyone to tell you what's good or bad, or even in between. You'll make do with the money you have to spend. Every time I sold a piece of furniture I would put that money in the bank to spend on tools.
> 
> ...




Piper,
I really enjoyed this post. Very in-line with my own thinking. 
Most of my tools are older but I'm not adverse to new equipment. Some of the newer tools have features that weren't available years ago which I like. 
Buying used tools at an estate sale can be a real bargain for a young man. Many older guys don't get into woodwork big time until after their retirement when they have more free time. They buy good stuff and seem to take better care of it. 
Someone will hit the jackpot when our tools are offered up for sale.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I go by weight, the heavier the better.


Warner, 
Are you still pulling heavy wire to get some of your mammoth machines operational. 
I know you like 'em big. 
But, small woodworking hobbyist like me just don't have the space for the type equipment you buy. That stuff was made for high production. 
Happy New Year to you 
Jim


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> Warner,
> Are you still pulling heavy wire to get some of your mammoth machines operational.
> I know you like 'em big.
> But, small woodworking hobbyist like me just don't have the space for the type equipment you buy. That stuff was made for high production.
> ...


Warner hasn't been here since the end of May. He uses a lot of three phase equipment which the power demand is spread over three wires so it shouldn't take that heavy of a wire to operate them. 

It's true the old equipment takes a lot of space but if you've ever used any of it you appreciate the weight very quickly. I can surface a 24" wide piece of oak easier with less noise than a 10" piece of pine in my portable planer.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Warner hasn't been here since the end of May. He uses a lot of three phase equipment which the power demand is spread over three wires so it shouldn't take that heavy of a wire to operate them.
> 
> It's true the old equipment takes a lot of space but if you've ever used any of it you appreciate the weight very quickly. I can surface a 24" wide piece of oak easier with less noise than a 10" piece of pine in my portable planer.


The last time I heard from Warner he was installing some huge breaker boxes and pulling some really big wire for his machines. I'm sure he's finished with that now. 
I just responded to a post that came across today and thought it was new. 
Regarding working on big/heavy machinery, I've had some opportunity to work on some really nice equipment over the years, I just don't own any of it. For me it's just a space issue. If I had a large designated wood shop I think I would fill it with all Powermatic. But that's not going to happen. I will continue with what I have and make do. Most of what I do own has some age on it. My machines were middle of the road price wise when new. 
Happy New Year to you. 
Jim


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Toolman50 said:


> I will continue with what I have and make do


Sorry to take your quote out of context, but this kinda dovetails into my personal philosophy on buying tools; buy what you can and learn to use it!

What i mean by that is theres a mindset with some people that you just have to have the best equipment possible to make anything good, but thats just not true. You just need what you can get, and then you need to learn how to best use it. My first table saw was a POS old craftsman contractor saw, but i learned how to get results and made good furniture with. 

Its not what you have, its what you do with it


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## Jim Frye (Aug 24, 2016)

My first large power tool was my table saw, A Ryobi BT3000, and I spent a lot of hours comparing table saws before spending the money. At the time, 1992, it was a totally new design and type of saw. It was widely panned by many, but I saw the value of the design. It still is accurate in both rip and crosscut and will likely still be running when I'm not. It does everything my Brother-In-Law's PM66 can do, just not all day long. I spent a bunch of time comparing a tool type when I was buying tools and always kept the thought of how much they would be used in my list of wants. Name a brand and it's likely in my shop. All of my woodworking tools are of the "bench top" variety and work well in my small, hobby shop. Since I am a hobbyist, I decided I don't need "production" sized machines and haven't needed them in the over 30 years I've been an active woodworker.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I bought what I could afford at the time. Each new tool was not top-of-the-line. But, I could do much more with it.
The 10" chop saw/miter saw gave me many cuts with predictable angles!
Then the 8" drill press gave me thousands of holes at predictable angles (plus cutting, sanding, shaping and polishing.)
The scroll saw gave me intricate shapes in many materials.
The cheap 10" table saw ($100) makes short work out of ripping blanks for repetitive carving work.
The Dremel, SawMax and RotoZip work well for the smaller carving rough-outs.

I don't have the space for bigger, floor-mount machinery. No big deal.
Over again? Probably a 12" drill press. Probably a 12" - 14" band saw.

There's a pretty good balance = I've spent as much or more on top-grade wood carving gouges.
In that stuff, you really do get what you pay for.


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## canarywood1 (Jun 9, 2016)

RMckee47 said:


> When starting woodworking in the late 1970's I bought a US made Rockwell radial arm saw that would not hold a setting. It was the worst quality tool I have ever owned.
> 
> I have read that the key is good design and good on-site quality control regardless of whether the factory is in the U.S. or Asia. I believe that is true. My cabinet saw is a U.S. made Powermatic 66, but I also use Saw Stop saws at open workshop class and find their overall quality to be high and the blade & splitter set-up superior to the PM. Saw Stop is manufactured in Taiwan.
> 
> On the other hand, Porter Cable hand tools went to hell when they moved to China...



I agree, when Porter Cable was made in the USA, it was one of the top notch tools around and many tradesmen preferred them, today they are entry level tools.

Everyone rails about the cheap China and Taiwan tools, but thats because nobody wants to spend the money a decent tool would cost, they want cheap and thats what they get, read an article today that China said they would be on Mars in 2020, do you think they are using cheap tools to get there, i doubt it very much, they can and do make tools as good as anyone else in the world today.


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