# Making frame for screens



## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

working on my porch project for a while now. documented in detail 
here.


I'd like to build some screens like this guy did. Got this pic from the contractor talk site.











Wondering what the best way to build these screens would be. 

Should I miter cut the corners? 
Better to use 2 X 2s or 1 X 2s?
And is it ok to use screws? What size? Wish I had a nail gun.

I'd like to add the screens I build to these openings.











Thanks for your help!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A simple frame would be to run a groove for a spline on all the parts before assembly. Then, you could join the corners with a splined miter, or, half laps.

The frame should be made to be removable, and can be made to fit an opening.












 









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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

a major novice here. thanks for the feedback!

I love the idea. what would be the best way to make the groove for the screen spline?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

joetab24 said:


> a major novice here. thanks for the feedback!
> 
> I love the idea. what would be the best way to make the groove for the screen spline?



I would think the easiest way would be to set the blade depth for the spline and the screen, and run them through the table saw. Or, a straight faced carbide tipped router bit, or a small core box bit. There are various diameters of spline, so finding one to fit in a ⅛" groove shouldn't be that difficult. If need be, the groove could be widened to accommodate a spline.

Just a suggestion. If you can edit your post with the pictures, there wouldn't be a need to scroll left or right. They are now a bit over 1000px. If you could, size them like 700px or less in width.











 









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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

found a pic that seems to be very similar to what you described


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

joetab24 said:


> found a pic that seems to be very similar to what you described



Yep...that's similar.











 









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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

thanks so much!:thumbsup:


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

The most common spline size is .165. If you use that size, you need to use a full 1/8" kerf blade in your table saw or 1/8" straight bit in your router. Yes, the spline compresses but you also have the screen material in there taking up room so thin kerf blades don't work too well. So what I am saying is just make the groove the exact size of the spline since with the screen in there you will still get a tight fit.

Table saw is a lot less set up than a router.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

what would be the best way to attach the screen to the opening? do i want to make it so that i have to wedge the screen in? or is there some type of hardware i can use to make the connection? i am thinking of the window screens in my house and i know they have metal clips (?) on top.


also, i don't have access to a table saw, so i am going to have to use a router to make the spline channel. haven't used a router before, but i can get one. i will practice on some scrap. i am guessing i will need to set up a jig to insure a straight cut.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Use a table saw if possible*

Second choice a router in a table.
Third choice freehand router...but you have no experience.. probably not so good. :no:
There must be someone you know with a table saw?
5 minute job to kerf 4 pieces.

Look here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv1-tyc7&p=wooden%20screen%20hardware&type=









There are many ways to fasten the screen in the opening.
wooden or metal plates that twist 90 degrees. A screw in the gap. Tiny wooden wedges.
Rare earth magnets counterbored in the frames.  bill


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## JMC'sLT30 (Oct 26, 2010)

How about something like this?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

joetab24 said:


> what would be the best way to attach the screen to the opening?


You could use drill in spring loaded ball catches like these. They work good and you don't see them. Makes inserting and removing easy.












 









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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

I like cabinetman's idea. You would have to keep in mind you would need to have a handle or come up with some way to be able to pull them out without putting pressure on the screen. 

I've done it a couple of other ways as well. I just tried uploading photos but they are too big so I'll just give you a link. 

Scroll down to the bottom of this page and you will get to a cedar door with some wood frames almost exactly like you are thinking of making. The door has the tempered glass panels in the picture but I did screens for it as well. I'm not sure if you can see it very well in the picture but it is held in by machine screws. I drilled through the frame and then epoxied threaded brass inserts in the door to screw into.


All the way at the bottom of the page is a couple pictures of a fir screen door. the picture on the right shows a detail of the screen clips I have used for several doors. I like those ones because they are not as conspicuous as zinc clips.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

thanks a lot guys!


currently working on the screen frame. a question about a lap joint on the corners. do i just glue and clamp? no screws or nails?


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

just glue will hold fine, I tack some brads from the side that will not be seen just to keep things square while the glue dries. Brads don't have much holding power though so you still need to be careful


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

I emailed the guy who did this.










in his words: he used "a laminate router is a small, hand held router (can hold in one hand) that is normally used for trimming laminate when glued to a counter. Mine has a guide that is mounted to the base which runs along the edge of the piece of wood you are working with and you can adjust where router bit goes, i.e., 1 inch from the edge. I cut the groove before I assembled the frame. The tricky part is the corners where you have to make a turn with the router. I did this “free hand”. "

Not having access to a table saw, I think I am going to have use a router. As I mentioned above, I've never used one. But isn't the concept the same as making a straight cut with the circular saw? I need to run the router along a straight edge so that I can make a straight cut. Guessing there is a jig to do this this.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

joetab24 said:


> I need to run the router along a straight edge so that I can make a straight cut. Guessing there is a jig to do this this.


If you rout the pieces on a router table, you would use some type of fence or straight edge (routing face down). If you rout them hand held, an edge guide can be attached to the router base to run against the piece you're routing (face up). 

To make the turn position a stop, for the corner. It isn't a free hand cut, but a guided cut from the straight cut to a corner.












 









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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

If you look at the picture, you can tell the guy did it freehand, the corner is not very tight at all. That means the spline is not holding the screen in the corner, so why even make the groove with corners? I usually just leave it without a corner. You can just use seperate pieces of spline for each edge. It holds fine, no difference in fact. It took me making about 80 screen doors before I finally realized that and it has saved me tons of time since.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

last post until i finish this project! promise  i appreciate greatly how helpful you guys are. was thinking of setting up this jig for the router cut. would that be ok? i guess, as mentioned above, attaching an edge guide to the router base would be easier. i can't find any pics of what this would look like. i did watch a video recently of a straight edge being clamped to a circular saw to make a rip cut. it seems this is the same idea. a pic would help me a lot. thanks!


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

That type of setup is not ideal. I know because that's what I used for more doors than I care to admit before I realized I was doing it the hard way. 

For the type of frame you are doing, a router table is a better choice as bill mentioned. It doesn't take much time or materials to build one and will be much easier/safer especially for a beginner. Here's a basic plan for a router table which would be more than adequate for your project. 

You don't need to make an adjustable fence, just use a straight length of hardwood and clamp it to your table in the position you need. 
Run a couple of test pieces to get the hang of it.


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## burkhome (Sep 5, 2010)

I know the RAS is not everyones favorite tool here...I built this a few years ago...All half lap with removable screens. I set up a simple jig on the RAS with a dado blade and spent hours cutting halflaps.


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## wwinsauer (Dec 7, 2010)

Neither of these ideas will work efficiently for what you are trying to do. The base of the router is too wide to use the edge guide on a 2" piece of stock. Unless, like he, you have a very small palm router.

You can use a straight edge guide but you will have to make a multi level clamping system to hold your stock and guide. I don't recommend it.

As mentioned before, your best bet is to make a simple router table and clamp down a straight edge for the fence. This may seem intimidating at firs but realize that it is ever so simple and will make things so much easier for you.

Take a piece of plywood approx 2' wide by 1.5' deep, turn on router and drop bit straight through about 2/3rds the depth of the board by 1/2 the width. doesn't have to be exact. remove the base plate of your router, put bit back through hole with router off. Mark mounting holes where base plate went on. Drill holes. Put plate back on router, set depth to about 3/16". Work out recesses where you drilled holes. You may need to go deeper depending on the length of screws you have for router and thickness of plywood. Take base plate back off. mount router underneath with bit poking through center. Drop screws through recesses and screw into router. Clamp / screw plywood to saw horses etc. to elevate making sure edges of plywood stick out far enough to clamp a straight piece of wood on for a fence.

Hope that helps,
Wayne


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

ok, I am definitely going to make a router table first. Found these plans as well. They seem easy enough. Another project:thumbsup:


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## wwinsauer (Dec 7, 2010)

Yep, That's it!
If you want to go through the trouble of making that fence it will suit many purposes but you don't need to go that far for what you are doing. Just clamp on a straight edge at least 3/4" high for the fence.

You should have the table together in about 30 to 45 minutes or less.

Do be careful and keep fingers away from the bit while passing wood through. It can be deceiving when your not looking directly at the bit but be warned, it is there, and it will be ferociously spinning out wood. Don't want that to be a finger.

do use a push block at the end of the run and with just a little more effort you can make featherboards to hold the piece down and into the fence, making the runs much easier.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

any opinions on whether I should add a dowel to my lap joint, like the one in this image?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

joetab24 said:


> any opinions on whether I should add a dowel to my lap joint, like the one in this image?


You could, but a properly glued lap joint wouldn't need a dowel. It would be a nice touch. Just don't let it in the way of the spline.











 









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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

I would cut the rails and stiles to size.
Rip a groove down each one. for the screen spline.
Do a mitered, half lap for the joints, and your done.
The half lap, does away with the stopped groove, with a 90 deg. turn, on the stiles, needed with a half lap joint, or a m/t joint.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

novice question alert!: when complete, does the piece I am trying to cut go between the fence base and the fence face?

also, does the fence face screw into the fence base? in the pic above it looks like it does.

i've been looking for a video of someone using a router table like this. haven't been able to find.

thanks so much for your patience and help!:thumbsup:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nope*

Unlike a table saw, where the work piece is usually between the fence and the blade, NOT so on the router table.
The workpiece must be free to enter or leave the cutter without restriction......unless it's being held up against the fence by featherboards. You can't trap the work between the cutter and the fence. :no: 
Reason being the router bit comes in horizontally, the table saw blade is vertical....simple physics. 
Some math data for launch speed of kickbacks:
A table saw blade at 4000 or so RPM with a 10" blade has a peripheral speed of 4000 x pi D or 125,600 in per min, divided by 12 equals 10,466 ft per min, divided by 5280' equals miles per min., times 60 equals 118.93 MPH. 
A 1" router bit turning at 20,000 rpm has a peripheral speed of 20,000 x pi D or 3.14 or 31,400 in per min, divided by 12 equals 2676.66 ft per min, divided by 5280' equals .9955 miles per min. times 60 equals 59.46MPH ...I think!










*NEVER *between the bit and the fence as on a table saw.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

There is no need to screw it down, just clamp it. The fence in that diagram is not adjustable so unscrewing/screwing every time you need to move the fence would not be practical.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

thanks! I think I get it now. I posted a pic of the finished product in a different thread. Fast becoming a woodworking addict!:thumbsup:


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

I found this pic today










thinking of picking up one of these trim or laminate routers.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

joetab24 said:


> I found this pic today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't a standard router work on that? 
I haven't made a screen, or screen door, with a center rail, but if I do, I would route spline grooves, on the top and bottom of the center rail, to make 2 separate screened areas. Never liked how the screen over the rail looked. It's more work, but....
Also, a 8" or longer piece of wood screwed to the router fence, would make it easier.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

a quick update

built my first screen frame. still need to prime and paint.











put it in to make sure it fit.










i still need to add the screen. i know how to do this. i also need to add hardware to the screen to secure it to the opening.

was thinking i'd use something like this


















a question...

do i now add a window stool?


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

The only problem with using ball bearing catches is they will more than likely rattle in the wind. Also you need to have some kind of a handle to pull on to remove them. You might be able to use some weather stripping to dampen the rattle.

Here's a link to the phelps hardware catalog. There are a couple options that might work for you, one on page 11 the other on page 13. This company sells mostly to manufacturers so they are not really set up to cater to homeowners. Also the hardware does not come with instructions. It's all quality stuff though.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

thanks sketel,


would you do anything with the horizontal piece under the screen? at some point, someone suggested adding a sill or stool. the front is 16' wide. would i do a sill in three sections?

thanks for your help!


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

hey sketel,

if it's not too much trouble, what model #s in the catalog?


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

hey all,

just wanted to add a link and a few pics in case anyone is doing something similar and finds this thread.

link

some pics from the above link


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Sorry I forgot to answer your question.

I was thinking either the cf780 or the scf64. As far as adding a sill, it could look good either way so in my opinion that is just a matter of preference.


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## joetab24 (Aug 15, 2010)

what view would this be? from the inside of the porch looking out? or the street view. trying to determine where to put the stops.


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