# Radial Arm Saw as alternative to table saw and track saw?



## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

A good safe table saw or a good track saw seems to cost a fortune. (e.g. Sawstop & Festool). 

What about a used Radial Arm Saw instead? I see they are sold fairly cheaply. I could make the benchtop for the radial arm saw to be parf mft so I could clamp the pieces I was cutting down to the table. The saw doesn't have kickback and the piece is clamped.. you can stand to the side and simply slide it over the wood. Seems so very safe.

What are the drawbacks to a radial arm saw? Are the cuts not as clean? Could I do box joints and dados well with the radial arm saw?


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

You have been around here for seven years and we are supposed to take this post seriously?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*For many home shops, that's all they use(d).....*



woodgeekess said:


> A good safe table saw or a good track saw seems to cost a fortune. (e.g. Sawstop & Festool).
> 
> What about a used Radial Arm Saw instead? I see they are sold fairly cheaply. I could make the benchtop for the radial arm saw to be parf mft so I could clamp the pieces I was cutting down to the table. The saw doesn't have kickback and the piece is clamped.. you can stand to the side and simply slide it over the wood. Seems so very safe.
> 
> What are the drawbacks to a radial arm saw? Are the cuts not as clean? Could I do box joints and dados well with the radial arm saw?



A RAS is great for crosscuts, dados, even making moldings with the proper cutters and guards. It was marketed as the "One tool does it all" woodworking machine back in the '60's and '70's. I own several of the older Craftsman 12" versions, almost the same as the 10" models, but the motors have more power. I keep mine set for crosscutting only, not ripping because my table saws are better for that.


No need to clamp the material being crosscut against the fence. The way the teeth enter the work causes it to tend to rise up at first, but it is easily controlled with downward left hand pressure.


There are some who abhor the radial arm saw for various reasons, but there are a few million out there in use. :surprise2:


You CAN safely rip on a RAS, but it's a matter of following very specific safety precautions. This video demonstrates all the different ways a RAS can be used:






A pretty good explanation of the safety aspects involved in ripping on the table saw. Of course this is just one person's take on it, but his points are definitely worth watching:


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## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

FrankC said:


> You have been around here for seven years and we are supposed to take this post seriously?


I signed up 7 years ago, maybe was on the forum for a month and I didn't talk about stationary power tools then.

Since I seem to annoy you every post I make, how about not replying at all to my posts. I don't need the negativity.


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## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

I see a Dewalt 203607 radial arm saw from 1960-62 which is only selling for like $150. Looks like it is in good shape.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

The second tool I bought about 50 some years ago was a Delta/Rockwell 12 inch "turret" radial arm saw, they were pretty much over engineered and if set right were easy to switch from cross cut to rip cut, I built tons of furniture with it, and never had any problems, just remember to always feed the wood into the rotation of the blade when ripping, and keep the anti kickback pawls on the wood, and be super careful cutting short small pieces, I would always cut them long then trim the to length 



But I always wanted a table saw and onetime I went to an auction, I was a little late getting there it was a cabinet shop selling out, and as I walked in the auctioneer was saying "I can't believe no one will bid $50 on this heavy duty table saw" So with out looking at it I bought it. It was a Wallace, super heavy, but the bad part is it was a gear drive saw and the gear box and gears were missing, I was saddened by that LOL


It was long before the internet so I was pretty much on my own, got a piece of 3/4 thick cold rolled steel plate from a customer I did HVAC work for, and had a friend at the Moose Lodge who was a machinist, he build a shaft for it and I got it running used it for a long time, until in 2002 a Dr told me I had terminal cancer. I told my wife I was going to buy a Unisaw, because I had always said I would have one before I died


Thankfully the $14,500 test that said I was terminal gave false positives 40% of the time (WTF), and after chemo and radiation I am still kicking fine, just not a high LOL


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodgeekess said:


> I signed up 7 years ago, maybe was on the forum for a month and I didn't talk about stationary power tools then.
> 
> Since I seem to annoy you every post I make, how about not replying at all to my posts. I don't need the negativity.


Sorry, we had a character on here a while ago that was leading us down the garden path, obviously you have legit queries so I humbly apologize.


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## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

No problem FrankC, sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm just a dumb newbie woodworker wannabe lol. Trying to somehow keep things affordable, yet doable and have some sort of quality to the projects I make.

Back seven years ago, I was going to do the hand tool route and I found it wasn't enjoyable for me because it took so much longer to get things done. However I will incorporate a few things I learned from handwork into what I will ultimately do. Like I intend on using card scrapers instead of sanders.. seems to make more sense to me, less dust and is quicker. I still might use my hand plane for now to joint one side of warped wood before running through table saw or thickness planer, at least until I get a jointer.

(Actually I recall why I gave up on the hand woodwork, the shooting board I made along with the Veritas low angle jack, was causing intense pain in my fingers and in my shoulder.. got frozen shoulder after that.. has to do with my diabetes.. glycation of ligaments or whatever causing the joints to glue together.. physical therapy took care of that after a while. I was going to cut things by hand or with a circular saw then shoot them with the veritas low angle jack for nice clean square cuts -- this was to avoid getting table saw because I feared them back then to be honest.)


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Whoever told you RAS's dont have kickback was either lying to you or owns stock in prosthetic manufacturers...

Now, some of the RAS safety concerns are overblown, in some cases massively so, but that does not make them 'safe'. Its still a rapidly spinning blade and will maim you if you arent careful. Kickback is a very real concern as the normal operation of a RAS has you pulling the carriage in the same direction as the blade is spinning. What this means is its possible for the saw to self-feed and send the blade somewhere the operator wasnt prepared for it to go. The geometry of the cut also means that theres a risk of the sawblade lifting the workpiece off the table unless care is taken during cutting operations, again giving a chance of kickback. 

Now, RAS's can be extremely useful tools that are no more dangerous than a table saw, but that requires careful planning and use, same as anything else. Personally, i quite like RAS's, and i wish they were more common, but i would strongly suggest doing some more reading on use and safety precautions before thinking about using one, because honestly, the idea of any saw not having kickback is misguided at best


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

A RAS will cross cut quite well but is a poor choice for ripping. Yes, I'm going to catch hell for that comment, but I stand by it. My first saw was a sears RA. My first use of it was to make a big picture frame. I set it up according to all the instructions. Started ripping a piece of walnut to width and immediately discovered That even with the factory hold downs it was a really shaky operation. The blade is rotating so it lifts the board off the table. Bad idea! Next I installed the Sears "molding disc/head." I had all the hold downs in place and slowly fed the work in. Just as the work entered the cut it chattered, broke the end of the board, threw it into my head and knocked me to the floor with a nice big stream of blood pouring out of my head. It broke the cast aluminum blade guard. I now have a very old, 40s, DeWalt 16". It is only used for making rough cross cuts. 

I think you would be a lot better off with a table saw. If you can possibly swing it, a SawStop. There are no second chances with a sawblade!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I learned woodworking on a radial arm saw decades ago. That radial arm saw was used by me and others to build a lot of furniture, a kitchen, a room addition, and a large house, among other things.

Radial arm saws are cheap because they are old and few people want them. Only fringe manufacturers are making them now. I consider them more dangerous than table saws or track saws, but every saw has its dangers. If you are injured, it doesn't matter which tool did it, right? I agree with Larry about the challenges of rip cuts on a radial arm saw. 

Sliding compound miter saws have supplanted radial arm saws these days. If you search for "radial arm saw" on Amazon, all you see is sliding compound miter saws. 

If I were @woodgeekess, I would drop the radial arm saw research; it is a distraction that won't go anywhere useful. If radial arm saws suddenly take the market by storm once again, then consider buying one in the future. Maybe new inventions will make them better, easier, and safer for general woodworking. You never know.

Some people will argue that radial arm saws are great, wonderful, versatile, perfect woodworking tools. I bet that they are all over 60 years old. The people for sure, and many of their radial arm saws too.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If you do decide to buy a RAS, that one you posted is a great deal. The old iron are by far the better machines.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*There are two types of kickback ....*

The tablesaw is notorious for kickbacks where the workpiece comes away from the fence after passing the rear of the blade, rises up on top of the blade and rotates then is forcefully propelled back towards the operator.


Another type is where a thin rip is not pushed all the way past the blade and rattles around and eventually is propelled back towards the operator. This is easy to cure, just push the work past the blade using a proper push shoe.


Also when ripping without a splitter, the kerf may close at the rear of the blade and jam, stalling the motor. It may or may not kickback in my experience.


On a RAS, the workpiece is pushed between the fence and the blade when ripping. The blade's teeth are pushing down on the workpiece at the rear so, no rotational type of kick back. Warped material is likely to kickback regardless the type of saw. 



A real kickback can occur on a router table if you feed in the same direction as the rotation of the cutter OR locate the workpiece between the cutter and the fence.


It is of prime importance to understand the physics of rotation when a cutter of any type enters the material. This article is helpful in explaining how kickback occurs:
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Tablesaw/tablesaw.htm


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## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks I printed out that waterfront woods article on kickback. I'll re-read it again after I read the safety manual of the table saw I get. 

I guess I'll forget his idea of RAS.. isn't as safe as I thought it might be. A saw someone do rip with it and it looked a bit scary. Cross cut seemed pretty safe.. safer than sliding compound miter saw because you pull the blade toward you in RAS and away from you in sliding one.. which can kick the piece upwards at the fence. (Watched some RAS safety videos today.)

I'm starting to think I'll just get Sawstop JobSite Pro saw for $1399 because of the extra 2" in feed compared to other table saws, the fact it stores out the way very well.. and because I will only use table saw for small cuts. I'll rip sheet material with a track saw.. looks like I am gonna have to get a Festool TS 55 because it really does seem to be the best; e.g. it has riving knife and tracks which don't come warped (like Makita).


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*My thouhts on the track saw*

I owned a Festool TS75, the "big one" briefly. I had the 55" track and the 120" one. I realized it was an impulse purchase and I didn't need the system since previously I use a saw guide and my circular saw to break down 4 X 8 sheets. For that I needed 2 sawhorses and four 8 ft 2 X 4's to support the plywood having one on each side of the cut line.
I did purchase a 2" styrofoam sheet to put under the plywood, but never used it..... yet. You need the material at a convenient height to pass the saw along without kneeling on the ground and still reach to the center of the width while standing. I worked outside when doing this, weather permitting. My shop is up 15 steps, on the second floor, so carrying up a 3/4" sheet was no going to happen. That was the entire reason for the track saw or saw guide. 

About a RAS. I wouldn't have a shop without one. Here's why.
The table saw is the best machine for ripping various width material from 1/8" thick to 30" wide. Period. It can cross cut lengths reasonably safely and accurately up to around 4 ft. Longer than that, it's unweildy because the miter gauge even with an extended fence has to push the entire weight of the plank through and past the blade.
Cross cutting heavy planks of hardwood on a RAS is a snap. You now only have to move the saw carriage, not a heavy plank. It is also fine for crosscutting workpieces down to 3" or 4" long but after that it gets too short to hand hold them safely. So, back to the table saw with an extended miter fence or a sled. 

Making shelving or cabinets or a library ladder with a dado set in a RAS is a snap: https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/shelf-spacing-made-simple-using-ras-47095/
My RAS has an extended table to the left side for supporting longer planks:










A good discussion RAS VS sliding miter saw:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/ras-sliding-compound-mitre-saw-159290/


I made this double miter gauge setup for more control cross cutting longer and heavier planks, BUT it also works great on short stock as well. It's a sled of a sort without the bulk:










Here's a build I did on a large sled with adjustable fences for miters:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/table-saw-sled-build-49218/


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## woodgeekess (Mar 16, 2012)

check out this beast for $185 -- available locally; looks like it originally cost at least $5000

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/tls/d/claremore-swinging-radial-arm-saw/6982766047.html


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*As swing saw in NOT a radial arm saw!*

That saw is a high production unit for cutting planks to length. My buddy has one similar in his commercial hardwood door shop. He has lots of big stuff... 16" Porter jointer, 24" flat beltdrive paner, 3" wide resaw bandsaw, straight line self feed rip saw, 10 HP shapers, etc....


:vs_cool:


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## evilboweivel (Nov 3, 2018)

currently own two radial arm saws, would not be without one
DeWalt in garage I bought in 1984 brand new from local hardware, think they had it for a few years
first table for it was made out of 3/4 plywood, 6' top to the left, 2' top to the right, 8' bottom rest of the 4'x8' sheet was used for back and dividers, this set on 2 sawhorses and I was able to take it on jobs broken down as saw, table and saw horses
now permanently on a bench
Sears in basement main shop bought new in 1985 (worked four sundays in a row to buy it) this one is bolted down to bench with 8' of table to left, 3' to right. table is marked off at every foot left and right of blade (same blade used all the time) very handy for rough cutting to length
have ripped on the DeWalt and do not feel comfortable doing this, however sometimes when tablesaw is jigged up and I need to rip something it happens
I have a Safety Speed Cut (5' nominal) panel saw in the garage for sheet goods, rip or crosscut, only saw that has not thrown wood at me YET
have had wood thrown at me by table saw radial arm saw, miter saw and don't have enough time on a sliding miter saw (don't own one) to have wood thrown at me YET
I don't crosscut on a table saw or rip on a radial arm saw as my 1st choice

edit to add
In table saws started out with a saw from JC Penny with resin top, then Delta contractors saw, now a SawStop ICS with all options available at time of purchase. The resin top saw the blade would push sideways when in a bind. fence was crap, measured both ends everytime and DO NOT hit it once set. Learned alot from it
TRY different saws keep an open mind and find what you are comfortable with. While knowing your wants and needs will change as you age and gain experience.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Feb 11, 2015)

I don't have much to add, other than you need to know to buy SPECIFIC blades for a RAS.
They're not just "regular saw blades".
Bob


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

woodgeekess said:


> ...Cross cut seemed pretty safe.. safer than sliding compound miter saw because you pull the blade toward you in RAS and away from you in sliding one.. which can kick the piece upwards at the fence. (Watched some RAS safety videos today.)


Not quite, as far as the blade physics go. In a sliding miter saw, youre pushing the saw against its direction of rotation. The blade cant really feed itself into the wood as youre forcing it to go in the other direction. The saw would have to ride up the workpiece and force your arm back

With a RAS, youre pulling the carriage in the direction of rotation, so instead of pushing against the saws movement, youre pulling with along with it. In that case, if something goes wrong you have to completely reverse the direction of your force, while the carriage is pushing against you. Picture trying to push someone out of the way and having them suddenly start moving the direction youre pushing


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## Bob in St. Louis (Feb 11, 2015)

epicfail48 said:


> Not quite, as far as the blade physics go. In a sliding miter saw, youre pushing the saw against its direction of rotation. The blade cant really feed itself into the wood as youre forcing it to go in the other direction. The saw would have to ride up the workpiece and force your arm back
> 
> With a RAS, youre pulling the carriage in the direction of rotation, so instead of pushing against the saws movement, youre pulling with along with it. In that case, if something goes wrong you have to completely reverse the direction of your force, while the carriage is pushing against you. Picture trying to push someone out of the way and having them suddenly start moving the direction youre pushing


I agree 100%.
In fact, I've found that with my particular saw, I can start the cut (towards me) and with 1/4" luan, the saw will make the cut "automatically" towards me without a problem, and without my hand on the saw. If I cut anything thicker or 'harder', the saw will grab and... well.. things get nasty. At that point, I go from pulling to pushing. Not a natural way to cut wood.
NOW... Yea, I realize this is the TOTAL wrong way to do it, however, that speaks of how the saw works, and the fact it will 'feed' itself through the wood. 
I've learned to bring the carriage to me, feed the wood into position, turn the motor on, then cut it as I push the saw away from me (the 'normal" direction saw blades need to cut).
Hope that helps.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

My 1957 Dewalt ras had a 5 hp 220 motor on it and with a 16 inch blade spinning wide open it never did ride up on top of the materials. I guess the motor was so heavy it didn't get much of a chance to lurch forward.

I really did like my ras but my shop now is way way too small for one so I had to sell it along with several other large tools.

I tried ripping with a ras one time, didn't try again. 

Bill, no way would I even try to turn a 10hp shaper on. I had a 3hp 220 shaper and it sounded like a jet warming up, I was really afraid of that thing, sold it and all the cutters for a song.


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

"On a RAS, the workpiece is pushed between the fence and the blade when ripping. The blade's teeth are pushing down on the workpiece at the rear so, no rotational type of kick back. Warped material is likely to kickback regardless the type of saw." 


When ripping on a RAS the blades teeth are pushing up, hence causing kickback where as on a table saw when ripping the teeth are downward into the stock


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Bob in St. Louis said:


> I don't have much to add, other than you need to know to buy SPECIFIC blades for a RAS.
> They're not just "regular saw blades".
> Bob





How so? I interchange blades on my table saw and RAS all the time.


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

It's not hard you just go slow with the cut, push back a little, I really can't image with what I'm doing without a RAS, it makes so many things easier.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Bob in St. Louis said:


> I agree 100%.
> In fact, I've found that with my particular saw, I can start the cut (towards me) and with 1/4" luan, the saw will make the cut "automatically" towards me without a problem, and without my hand on the saw. If I cut anything thicker or 'harder', the saw will grab and... well.. things get nasty. At that point, I go from pulling to pushing. Not a natural way to cut wood.
> NOW... Yea, I realize this is the TOTAL wrong way to do it, however, that speaks of how the saw works, and the fact it will 'feed' itself through the wood.
> I've learned to bring the carriage to me, feed the wood into position, turn the motor on, then cut it as I push the saw away from me (the 'normal" direction saw blades need to cut).
> Hope that helps.


Technically not proper technique, but honestly safer that way



redeared said:


> How so? I interchange blades on my table saw and RAS all the time.


Can doesnt mean should. The teeth on your average saw blade have positive rake, makes them dig into the wood for a slight more aggressive cut. More aggressive cut means higher chance of the saw deciding to self-feed. RAS's are recommended to be used with either a zero or negative rake blade, for safety


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This is your sliding miter saw, right?*



Bob in St. Louis said:


> I agree 100%.
> In fact, I've found that with my particular saw, I can start the cut (towards me) and with 1/4" luan, the saw will make the cut "automatically" towards me without a problem, and without my hand on the saw. If I cut anything thicker or 'harder', the saw will grab and... well.. things get nasty. At that point, I go from pulling to pushing. Not a natural way to cut wood.
> NOW... Yea, I realize this is the TOTAL wrong way to do it, however, that speaks of how the saw works, and the fact it will 'feed' itself through the wood.
> I've learned to bring the carriage to me, feed the wood into position, turn the motor on, then cut it as I push the saw away from me (the 'normal" direction saw blades need to cut).
> Hope that helps.



I've found they are slightly different in operation than a radial arm saw. I think this is because you can also control the depth of cut as you push the saw, unlike a RAS where depth of cut is predetermined. I always PULL my RAS carriage into the work from behind the fence. 



Pushing a RAS would be a "climb" cut, that is feeding with the direction of rotation. You would NOT feed a table saw from behind the blade for a rip for this reason and some unwitting operators attempt to feed a RAS from the wrong direction which results in an expulsion of the workpiece. You should always feed the work INTO the direction of the rotation of the cutters/blades, and this is especially true on a router table.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Feb 11, 2015)

redeared said:


> How so? I interchange blades on my table saw and RAS all the time.


Hard for me to explain, but I found a video that does a pretty good job.
But honestly, I don't believe you're supposed to do what you're doing. I could be wrong.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It's about th ehook angle of the teeth .....*



redeared said:


> How so? I interchange blades on my table saw and RAS all the time.



A table saw cuts up from the bottom of the board, pressing the board down towards the table ...at least at first. A RAS cuts from the top down, lifting the board off the table ...at least at first. Table saw blades have a "positive" hook angle or rake, so there's no problem. The RAS will also cut with a posiitive hook angle, but its a very aggressive cut and will tend to self feed into the work. That's why you have to use a firm control when using a TS blade on a RAS!


A proper RAS blade, now available with a "negative" hook angle, however those were not made back when they initially came out with the home shop versions of a RAS. People were not aware of the self feeding issue and made mistakes which sometimes resulted in injuries. :sad2:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

The reason radial arm saws get such a bad rap is because they are not set up with the proper blade, not adjusted as they wear and are not used as intended.

It is virtually impossible for a blade to run across the top of a board if the carriage bearings are set properly, this seems to be particularly important with Craftsman saws.

Self feeding will be practically eliminated when using a blade designed for the saw with a negative hook. I have personally seen a demonstration where a cut is made part way into a board, the carriage is stopped and let sit running without being held, (do not try this at home).

Imagine if someone advised you to feed a board into a table saw from the other end, you would likely dismiss them immediately as a crackpot.

For Craftsman saw owners there is an online manual here that covers adjusting the carriage bearings:
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/222/2238.pdf


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

FrankC said:


> The reason radial arm saws get such a bad rap is because they are not set up with the proper blade, not adjusted as they wear and are not used as intended.
> 
> It is virtually impossible for a blade to run across the top of a board if the carriage bearings are set properly, this seems to be particularly important with Craftsman saws.
> 
> ...



On my RAS, the pin didn't align perfectly for the 90 degree stop so I took it off intending to adjust it later. I was home on leave from the USAF when I did that, a while later I hear about my brother trying to rip a 2x4, he fed it into the rotation of the blade, the motor pitched up, and launched the 2x4 through a cement block in our basement where I had my shop


He said it happened so quick he didn't even know what happened. lucky it did if he would have fought it, it very easily could have pulled his arm into the path of the blade


I have since adjusted the pin stop


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

BigJim, You should have at least one shaper. They are so versatile. For a small investment you can setup to grind your own knives, make curved moldings, precisely machined "to width" stock on & on. If you had one of the light duty shapers I can see why you thought they sounded bad. They are awfully floppy. A nice 5 hp industrial grade machine purrs. Well, until you put an 8" cutter block on it and spin it a bit too fast. I've got 6 shapers from a nice SAC 5hp to a Gomad tilt at (7.5 hp ??), all with feeds. The big Gomad weighs over 2,000#s, smooth as silk. Try it, you'll like it :>)


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

On a ras, the wood is not lifted off the table, if set right.
If not the trailing edge of the blade could touch the kerf, and lift the wood.
With a powerful enough (no Craftsman saws) motor, and a sharp blade (regardless of how) you should have very little, if any.
Learned after having a number of old Craftsman, DeWalt 9" and Red Star 10".
Big difference on DeWalt 7790. 12" saw, running 10" positive hook blade.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

To the poster's original question, I'm of the opinion a table saw is central to a woodworking shop. If the budget is limited, then I would say any table saw is better than none. 

Why? Because you simply cannot beat a table saw for precision and consistency. Hands down, only the best commercial grade radial arms can compare in this regard.

The common RAS's for homeowner use are not reliable machines. The settings are easily disrupted. For example, one bump of the arm will require a recheck for 90°.

IMO they are one of least safe machines because they are so prone to self feeding and binding. I would never even attempt ripping on one. Sliding miters have largely taken their place.

That said, I have one and use it a lot. 95% for rough crosscuts. I use a miter saw for precision miter cuts and small pieces of wood, etc.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Basic physics for circular saws ......*



woodnthings said:


> A table saw cuts up from the bottom of the board, pressing the board down towards the table ...at least at first. A RAS cuts from the top down, lifting the board off the table ...at least at first. Table saw blades have a "positive" hook angle or rake, so there's no problem. The RAS will also cut with a positive hook angle, but its a very aggressive cut and will tend to self feed into the work. That's why you have to use a firm control when using a TS blade on a RAS!
> 
> 
> A proper RAS blade, now available with a "negative" hook angle, however those were not made back when they initially came out with the home shop versions of a RAS. People were not aware of the self feeding issue and made mistakes which sometimes resulted in injuries. :sad2:





DrRobert said:


> To the poster's original question, I'm of the opinion a table saw is central to a woodworking shop. If the budget is limited, then I would say any table saw is better than none.
> 
> Why? Because you simply cannot beat a table saw for precision and consistency. Hands down, only the best commercial grade radial arms can compare in this regard.
> 
> ...



I have probably done more ripping on a RAS than anyone on this forum. :surprise2: I have done a whole lot of ripping with a circular saw over the past 50 years. I have done a lot more ripping on the table saw than either of the other 2 saws, probably several thousand linear feet. I know what I'm doing. :|


I also know what happens when a rotating circular saw blade enters the wood and starts to cut and that depends on the type of saw being used.

 
Let's start with a hand held circular saw, a very common tool that just about everyone has used. The saw has a base plate to support it's weight AND to press against the top of the workpiece, very important. You would NOT just freehand hold the saw above the work and attempt to saw with it! As the rotating blade enters the work the teeth are rotating upwards, pressing it against the base of the saw. You can now control the forward motion and continue cutting with no issues, including no kickback. Depending on the material, plywood or lumber, the saw kerf may close up and bind the blade, stalling the motor. Plywood will NOT do this because it's homogeneous, lumber will because it's grain varies within the wood.


Now what happens when a miter saw is used? As you start the cut you are pushing down. The saw blade is entering the material from the top, BUT you need to hold it down against the table and the fence with your left hand. You can't just lower the blade without a secure grip on the workpiece or it will tend to lift up because that's the direction the teeth are rotating.


Now what about a RAS? It's very similar to the miter saw in that the rotating blade is above the workpiece, except you are pulling the saw towards you from behind the fence. As the teeth enter the material from ABOVE, it's being pressed down into the table and against the fence, BUT you still need a firm grip on both the material AND the handle on the saw. Depending on the hook angle of the blade it may self feed aggressively into the material. Here's where a negative hook angle blade is the best type to use on a RAS. 



What about ripping on a RAS? It's a lot like a circular hand saw, BUT there is NO base plate to keep the material pressed down while the blades teeth rotate upwards, lifting the material. This is where the blade guard/cover must be used to prevent the material from lifting upwards! This is very critical and often not done. It's the main reason for kickbacks and lack of control of the material! I used a roller located right above the material when I ripped several hundred feet of Cypress for this barn door project:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/evil-machine-28461/


 


 




The roller prevents the workpiece from rising upwards due to the upward rotation of the teeth entering the material.


What about ripping on the table saw? Now the rotating blade is entering from BELOW the material. The teeth are pressing the material downwards, at first as they begin to cut then under feeding pressure. As the kerf is opened up there is some tendency for the material to be lifted up at the rear of the blade, BUT not much because it's not cutting, just friction on the sides of the blade. If the kerf closes because of the internal stress being relieved, the friction is greatly increased and that's when the material will lift up and either stall the motor or cause a kickback. A splitter or riving will prevent this from happening, it's is a critical table saw safety feature and should always be used when ripping. 



So, some basic physics is needed to understand what's happening when a rotating blade enters the material from above AND whether there is a means to prevent it from lifting upwards, like a base plate on the circular saw, OR a blade guard/cover on the RAS.
Table saws are different since the material is resting on the table initially and is being pressed downwards as the cutting begins. There is only sideways friction if you stop feeding the material forward. 



A bandsaw has a much smaller blade contact area and the teeth are offset leaving the remainder of the blade in the kerf, therefore with much less friction. The material is being pressed downwards onto the table the same as the table saw, however. Bandsaws will not kickback because unlike a circular saw the width of the blade plane is so much smaller. For this reason on a table saw, any rotation of the workpiece away from the fence at the rear while the blade is cutting will bind and cause a kickback. :vs_OMG:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> I have probably done more ripping on a RAS than anyone on this forum. :surprise2: I have done a whole lot of ripping with a circular saw over the past 50 years. I have done a lot more ripping on the table saw than either of the other 2 saws, probably several thousand linear feet. I know what I'm doing. :|


Perhaps, I know I have done some of the best ripping on a radial arm saw..... some say I have probably ripped more than anyone else......I do beautiful ripping but the fake members here won't give me credit for it...... :vs_laugh:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yep, you are always ripping into something ....*



FrankC said:


> Perhaps, I know I have done some of the best ripping on a radial arm saw..... some say I have probably ripped more than anyone else......I do beautiful ripping but the fake members here won't give me credit for it...... :vs_laugh:


Or someone about something, but how much actual "ripping" have you done ON a RAS? It doesn't matter really, because if you know what you are doing, it's perfectly safe. If you don't know what you are doing and feed from the wrong direction for example, bad things will happen. :vs_OMG:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Or someone about something, but how much actual "ripping" have you done ON a RAS? It doesn't matter really, because if you know what you are doing, it's perfectly safe. If you don't know what you are doing and feed from the wrong direction for example, bad things will happen. :vs_OMG:


I guess some people really need to be taken seriously.

I have actually ripped many lifts of plywood, 1 1/8" and 3/4", a month for spiral stair case treads and risers for several luxury condo projects, so yes I have a bit of experience ripping on a radial arm saw.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I'm sorry ......*

I thought you were being facetious ......... :wink:







FrankC said:


> I guess some people really need to be taken seriously.
> 
> I have actually ripped many lifts of plywood, 1 1/8" and 3/4", a month for spiral stair case treads and risers for several luxury condo projects, so yes I have a bit of experience ripping on a radial arm saw.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

My one adventure into ripping on the RAS was an immediate "not for me!!"


For those considering embarking on such an adventure, I suggest doing some research beyond this forum. Lets just say there is wide agreement among ww'ers that this is not the "go to" machine for ripping, for several reasons.


My comments are directed toward the consumer type saw like the every present Craftsman pictured above. I have owned 3 such machines in 35 yrs of ww'ing the only one I would consider acceptable was an old DeWalt with cast iron arm. 

The biggest issue is accuracy. On most any consumer saw, there is flex in the arm when lateral force is applied. To me, the thing about RAS' is "set it but don't forget it". They are notorious for losing their settings. Just a bump on the arm is enough to require a full check up. Setting one up for ripping is probably not going to be just a matter of rotating 90°. The blade still has to be checked parallel to fence and 90 to table. Then when its put back to cross cut, the same checks need to be done. Lot of hassle for no realistic advantage.


Power is another factor. I know this is saw-dependent, but consumer type saws such as the one pictured have their limits. From experience, I couldn't imagine ripping 8/4 hard maple through a radial with the typical "2 1/2HP" motor.


When ripping on either machine, if there is no riving knife or splitter much care has to be taken to keep the material against the fence. With a saw kerf in the board, this isn't an east task.


I apologize for the length but I feel I should bring up the points for consideration for those thinking its a safe, easy, accurate task rather than reading a post and assume its easily done and a good alternative to a table saw (which I hope I have shown it is not). 

Not intending to start an argument here but felt the need to respond as many people will read something in a forum and assume it is totally correct. So I'll stick to my table saw for ripping.Like many things related to ww'ing to each his own what works for one might not for another.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You make some good points ^*

When ripping on a RAS or a table, motor HP or power is very important because it's more demanding than cross cutting. When ripping even 1" Cypress as I posted above I could easily over feed the saw and stall it. The consumer models like the 10" Craftsman I used do not have adequate HP for hardwoods, but are just fine for sheet goods like plywood. 

The operational procedures still apply and ripping can be done safely when they are observed. I have never knocked a RAS arm out of alignment with a "bump" so I suspect the saw had some set up or maintenance issues in your case. Even if that's the case, a quick check with a good framing square would only take a few seconds. There are carriage locks, arm locks and a carriage position lock all of which need to be secure. Then there are the "V" groove bearings that maintain even and constant tracking of the carriage on the arm and they need to be adjusted for minimum play. That's an easy adjustment because they are on cams and can be locked with a turn of a wrench.
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/craftsman-12-ras-motor-rebuild-35737/


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

Before I got my table saw I ripped a lot of wood in 40 years on my craftsman ras including 2x oak. I admit when I first started out I did have some kickbacks, but I learned from my mistakes. Am I afraid to rip on the ras?, No I just to do it on the table saw as it is easier, and I keep my ras zeroed in at a 90 degrees crosscut.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

At the time I was doing a lot of ripping I had an 9" Dewalt that was just not up to the task, my choice was several hundred dollars for a new Dewalt radial arm or several thousand for a General table saw. I had a long bench already set up so it was an easy choice to go with the radial arm.

I got to know the local saw sharpener really well, the steel blades did not hold up that well so he introduced me to a new type of blade with carbide teeth, a deal at $150.00, it cut a kerf slightly wider than 1/8", was fine in the 3/4" stock but the saw bogged down cutting the 1 1/8" stock at about 15 degrees.

Went to the Dewalt service centre to see about a larger HP motor, the service rep handed me a 220 volt plug and said to go home and try it. Could not believe the difference, totally different saw, and before the ruckus starts the saw was plugged into a 110 volt outlet directly behind it located about 15 feet from breaker box.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I've never tried comparing the power of a motor between 120V & 220V. At least in theory there shouldn't be much difference assuming the wiring is correct for each voltage. Heavier wire should be used for 120V.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Larry Schweitzer said:


> I've never tried comparing the power of a motor between 120V & 220V. At least in theory there shouldn't be much difference assuming the wiring is correct for each voltage. Heavier wire should be used for 120V.


Shouldnt be and isnt any difference in power, unless the motor engages a different set of windings when moving to 220v. Otherwise, youll just get half the amp draw moving from 110 to 220


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## homestd (Aug 24, 2018)

> Bill, no way would I even try to turn a 10hp shaper on. I had a 3hp 220 shaper and it sounded like a jet warming up, I was really afraid of that thing, sold it and all the cutters for a song.


I have quite a bit of experience on big shapers and, yes, they are definitely one of the most dangerous machines that you can use. You have to really respect them and make damn sure you've crossed all your Ts and dotted all your Is before you hit that switch. The thing is, I would love to have one and a good stock feeder to work with.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Big shapers are one of the most versatile tools in the shop. If you get a shaper, get a heavy one, add a 4 wheel feed. My favorite one is my big Gomad tilt. Over 2,000#s, can swing a 15" diameter cutter head. We normally run molder heads on it. The larger the cutter diameter to smoother the cut. Treat a shaper with care. Ideally use chip limiting heads. We have a profile grinder so can make most any profile we want. There are heads made for hand grinding if you don't want to spend a lot. Shapers are easy to jig up to profile the edge of a circle, do copy work, moldings, even curved crown moldings. Running to an outside fence insures uniform dimension. We mount a saw blade to make very thin slots. Great tools!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*How did we get on the subject of big shapers .....?*

The OP's question was about RAS's as an alternative to table and tracks saws. I'll bet there's less than 3 folks on here that have a 10 HP shaper, so best to start a whole new thread for those. 

As with many tools and operations, one tool is NOT best at all things. Maybe a table saw comes closer than other machines, but even they are not good for cross cutting long heavy planks. A RAS excels at that because it easier to move the saw carriage on the arm accurately than to slide a heavy plank around on a table saw with a miter gauge. How many of us have more than one router? How many have more than one bandsaw? How many have more than one drill press? How many have a RAS, a table saw and a track saw or saw guide? That's because each machine has it's limitations and as you do more woodworking you end up with more machines. :smile2:


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

epicfail48 said:


> Shouldnt be and isnt any difference in power, unless the motor engages a different set of windings when moving to 220v. Otherwise, youll just get half the amp draw moving from 110 to 220



When wired to 120 the windings are parallel 240 they are in series, the motor will put out the same amount of power, use the same wattage, and have the same torque IF the wiring was heavy enough when running on 120, and that is always the problem if a motor seems stronger after rewiring to 240


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

In my last shop I only had 110/15 amp service. My 1 hp Unisaw ran, but had less power than I thought it should have. 
New shop has 110/20 amp and 220.
Running the saw on 20 amp (outlet 2' from breaker box).
Saw has a lot more power now. 
In my case, there would be no power increase, if I changed to 220.
"From what I have read"


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Pirate said:


> In my last shop I only had 110/15 amp service. My 1 hp Unisaw ran, but had less power than I thought it should have.
> New shop has 110/20 amp and 220.
> Running the saw on 20 amp (outlet 2' from breaker box).
> Saw has a lot more power now.
> ...


I guess like me over the years, your imagination was playing tricks on you. :smile2:


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

FrankC said:


> I guess like me over the years, your imagination was playing tricks on you. :smile2:



Probably not, depends on how long the run was for the 120 15 amp service, it was probably 14 `ga wire, and the voltage drop would be pretty good if it is a fairly long run


Now the saw is real close and wired with 12 ga wire, so the electrons move faster= more power


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Back to the question ... sorta?*

I just found this You Tube today and was impressed with the precision and care the guy used to turn it into a pretty good edge jointer. A bit of setup and a different fence is required... Oh Well:


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## evilboweivel (Nov 3, 2018)

like his fence setup and dust collection for the radial arm saw
that push block gives me some ideas also
I have ripped on my Radial arm saws before and may will again, I still prefer the table saw for ripping


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Catpower said:


> Probably not, depends on how long the run was for the 120 15 amp service, it was probably 14 `ga wire, and the voltage drop would be pretty good if it is a fairly long run
> 
> 
> Now the saw is real close and wired with 12 ga wire, so the electrons move faster= more power





FrankC said:


> I guess like me over the years, your imagination was playing tricks on you. :smile2:


Try running your saw on a 15 amp circuit with a 125' or longer 14ga extension cord, and tell me it has the same power.
The shop was at least that distance from the breaker box.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Pirate said:


> Try running your saw on a 15 amp circuit with a 125' or longer 14ga extension cord, and tell me it has the same power.
> The shop was at least that distance from the breaker box.







That is what I was saying, his imagination wasn't playing tricks on him, there was a big voltage drop on the 15 amp circuit


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## mjadams61 (Jan 1, 2016)

I was thinking real hard on a RAS myself since I had to send in my Rigid R4512 but my shop is way to small for one and a tablesaw even though it a small contractors. Since I am working with slabs of maple and walnut I decided to get me a hybrid/contractors saw. I been checking out the Rigid R4512 and was gonna get one but Home Depot went up on the price with in one day, from $649.00 to $749.00 so kinda of price me out of getting it.

Now the reason I cant wait is 1. like I said I am working with 4'-5'x 20"-24"x 2"-2 1/2" slabs of maple and walnut. I got into making cutting boards and cheese boards  and see how well they sell around here.

So I am getting the Delta 36-725 from my local Lowes Sunday.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2015)

woodgeekess said:


> A good safe table saw or a good track saw seems to cost a fortune. (e.g. Sawstop & Festool).
> 
> What about a used Radial Arm Saw instead? I see they are sold fairly cheaply. I could make the benchtop for the radial arm saw to be parf mft so I could clamp the pieces I was cutting down to the table. The saw doesn't have kickback and the piece is clamped.. you can stand to the side and simply slide it over the wood. Seems so very safe.
> 
> What are the drawbacks to a radial arm saw? Are the cuts not as clean? Could I do box joints and dados well with the radial arm saw?



I don't know what you should buy or own. To tell the truth, I am not sure I have ever made a cut using a radial arm saw. However, your argument is a bit flawed. You are using top of the line festool and sawstop tools for one part of the argument and a used radial arm saw in the next. Isn't a fairer argument a used table saw compared to a used radial arm saw price wise?


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