# Left tilt or right tilt?



## Jake (Jan 20, 2008)

Table saw tilt, what is the best one, left or right tilt. Is there an advantage to the left tilt over the right?


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

Jake: IF you do alot of long miter cuts than left is the only way to go.
Lots of reasons left is safer,better for miter cuts, other than that really doesnt make a lot of difference.
I have right tilt mainly cause I could not get a left and was really bummed out however I have use it every day now for close to 8 years and can honestly say I havent really had any issues that I thought I would. So miters YES left otherwise pick one. IF u have a choice of equal saws for equal price than go left


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## daryl in nanoose (Feb 18, 2007)

skymaster said:


> Jake: IF you do alot of long miter cuts than left is the only way to go.
> Lots of reasons left is safer,better for miter cuts, other than that really doesnt make a lot of difference.
> I have right tilt mainly cause I could not get a left and was really bummed out however I have use it every day now for close to 8 years and can honestly say I havent really had any issues that I thought I would. So miters YES left otherwise pick one. IF u have a choice of equal saws for equal price than go left


 I agree on this 110%:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## chris_klee (Jan 20, 2008)

this is prolly a realy dumb question, but you mean the blade goes to the left like this: \ ?

i think my portable rigid saw is a left tilt and i didnt even realize they come the other way.
whay exactly is the advantage of the left tilt? why is it better?


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## daryl in nanoose (Feb 18, 2007)

One of the problems with right tilt is mitering longer stock. The blade pushes the stock into the fence which makes 1- a high probable chance of kick back and 2- scares the wood.
I hardly ever need a left tilt but if I had a choice I would chose the left tilt just for this reason.
My portable is left tilt to.


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

The really stupid irony is this: ALL the small portable tablesaws are left tilt, they are also too small and too dangerous to do any mitering safely, Yes I have one also. Contractor saws, and most "normal" tablesaws which are used in shops where a contractor most likely would miter are of course RIGHT handed and too dangerous to miter on. Just plain stupid, that said most all tablesaws now offer either left or right hand tilt, finally some sense!
As I said if all things, price etc are equal go Left it is a much more versatile saw.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Well, in Europe we use only right tilt blades and there is no any problem with kickbacks but of course, we use also the riving knife, "short fence" and "low fence"

On the drawing below, you can see how the British are teaching the correct way to make a bevel cut, and believe me that the USA, OSHA safety regulations looks like the "Wild west" comparing to the British safety regulations that are very much influenced by the "Unions" that wants safe working environment for the employees and don't care how much it will cost....

niki


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

niki; WHAT? You have got to be kidding! That is the most dangerous thing i have seen in years! You are using a fence on the WASTE side of a cut! I can only presume they have an ambulance stationed at every tablesaw that is used that way.:thumbdown::no:.
You are going to pinch that sucker,then stuff it into your gut, take out anyone nearby, not to mention wrecking the machine.
NFW
Jack


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Jack
I'm not kidding, that is the way that we do it across the pond and I don't see any danger...
As I said, we are also using the riving knife and short/low fence.
The riving knife, will keep the wood from touching the blade and the short fence will prevent any kickback in case of internal stresses that might be released.

As I said, the British are very strict with safety regulations...if an inspector will see you (not as an amateur but registered business) working without riving knife and blade guard (even for non through cuts like dado)...you are out of business...

Just for an example; from 2008, all the woodworking and metal working cutting machines shall have to be equipped with a brake that will stop the rotation within 10 seconds (and they mean also all the older machinery) and nobody cares how much it will cost...

Regards
niki


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

Niki; man nothing personal but you guys are nutz, there is NO guidance to that rip other than the cutoff!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alt least put the damn fence on the LEFT side of the pc. That is the safe way to do it with a right tilt blade. 
If anybody in a shop over here were to do that his Butt would be bouncing off the street for a week:yes: Instant fired


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## Daveb (May 3, 2007)

Niki,

I am curious about the low height fence and how it, with the knife, avoids binding and kickbacks. I think you know exactly what you are talking about. Does the low fence allow the top of the cutoff piece to rotate slightly away from the blade, thereby relieving pressure against the blade? Or what is the theory?


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Skymaster
I'll try to make for you a test cut "in front of the cameras" if the weather will let me to take the car out of the garage.

I know that it's very difficult to accept the right tilt blade but I think that it's because most of the American TS's are not equipped with riving knife and short fence and even the splitter is many times "still packed in original plastic bag"... :smile: 

Daveb
The low height fence is only to give you a good access for the push stick when you make shallow cuts and/or to avoid the blade to come in contact with the fence when it's tilted for bevel cut.

You can try it by just making an L shape from two plywood scrapes and clamping it to the original fence. You will see how convenient it is to use a push stick when the fence is set 1" from the blade (you can even use you fingers to push the wood because the palm has a space but please don't do it).

The short fence is the one that in conjunction with the riving knife will prevent the kick back.
I'm talking about solid wood that might have internal stresses that will be released after the wood passes the front teeth of the blade.

The riving knife will keep the wood from coming in contact with the up-rising teeth of the blade but, if because of some released stresses, the wood will bend into the fence....well, the fence is stronger (clamped to the table) so the wood will press on the blade and even with the riving knife, you might get a kickback.

By using "short fence" that extends only 1"~2" beyond the front teeth of the blade, even if the wood will bend, there is no fence to press against so, no kickback.

Did you noticed that those "safety fanatic" British (and all EU) do not require Anti-kickback pawls...maybe, they know why...

If you like to see the "short fence" in action, please have a look here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7QXIN2X8-w&feature=user

I'm adding a few pics of the fence on my TS (Metabo) 
Note; the fence can be extended to full length for cutting man-made boards that does not have any internal stresses.

Regards
niki


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Skymaster

As I promised I took some pics "in action"....did you talked to the "weather Gods" :smile: 


That's the first method




















When I want to cut at the very edge, I'm using the "thin strips sled"








































Or, the vacuum sled




















If the board is wide and long, I'm using the "feather rollers"



















Regards
niki


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## vinnyb76 (Sep 25, 2007)

> niki; WHAT? You have got to be kidding! That is the most dangerous thing i have seen in years! You are using a fence on the WASTE side of a cut! I can only presume they have an ambulance stationed at every tablesaw that is used that way.:thumbdown::no:.
> You are going to pinch that sucker,then stuff it into your gut, take out anyone nearby, not to mention wrecking the machine.
> NFW
> Jack


as a british woodworker i can say this is the only way to go in safety terms. the waste is`nt on fence side its the opposite and as nikki rightly pointed out the low fence position allows you use the pushstick on the fence side, plus for the thin strips prevents the blade hitting the fence when the blade is tilted


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## woodman42 (Aug 6, 2007)

Sorry Niki, but I have to agree with skymaster on this one.
I have had that cut off peice come back and leave a nasty bruise a little to close to the business area.
I have also seen a right tilt send a cutoff about 75ft across the shop.
From my experiences, I will stick to a left tilt saw.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Vinnyb76
Thank you for your supportive reply

Woodman
No problem at all
Our saws in Europe are equipped with riving knives and Low/High fences so that's the way we go.

I would not dare to cut that way without, at least, a riving knife.

Most of the American designed table saws are equipped with splitter that sits too far behind the blade (if it "sits" at all) and long high fence so for you guys the best way to stay away from kickbacks is left tilt.

But even with left tilt blade, I think that, if there is no something very close to the rear teeth of the blade...and I mean, riving knife...you'll still have the danger that the workpiece will pinch the rear teeth and kickback...I don't see any difference if the blade is at 90° or at 45°.

If you have seen a workpiece after kickback (I've seen it only on pictures), you'll see that the teeth created kind of a quarter circle marks...that means that the workpiece was lifted on top of the blade and than turned counter-clockwise, while the pivot is the fence, and thrown back while continuing to turn.

The only thing that can prevent this initial pinching is the riving knife that sits very close (1/8") to the blade.

Please have a look at this video to see it in fast and slow motion
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/

I did not mention the "help" of the long fence to the kickback because, it's relevant only in case of problematic wood with internal stresses...but you never know if the wood is "normal" or "problematic" until the UFO's are flying...:smile: 

Regards
niki


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## Gurnett (Jan 26, 2008)

Just thought I'd mention that I live in sweden, although the table saw I bought was imported from England and it is left tilt. So the comment that europe uses right tilt is incorrect. One thing that is different within the EU is that dado blades on table saws are illegal. which in theory means that the riving knife never needs to be removed. From a personal point of view, I would never cut a miter with a right tilt blade (just looks to scary)


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## vinnyb76 (Sep 25, 2007)

sorry to disagree gurnett but on our saw its right tilt which is made by scm which is italian( ithink) so europe does use right tilt,not forgetting also that the british laws are different to other european countries. im not sure about the laws specifically to left and right tilt but heres the basic laws of a table saw.
also when you crosscut apice on a 45 degree angle with a left tilt saw that means the blades pointing towoards the hand plus if you slipped on the floor while using theres more chance of injury so that seems more scary to me , i guess its everywheres got its own ways of doing things.


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## Gurnett (Jan 26, 2008)

If you read the original comment you'll see that Niki claims that Europe uses ONLY right tilt. My point was that this is not true. you can buy and use left tilt saws in Europe aswell as right tilt.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Gurnet
I apologize, I was sure that all the table saws are right tilt because those that I know are all right tilt and because of the HSE Woodworking sheet No 16 (Vinnyb76 link) and because of the training sheet at this website...
http://www.woodwise.co.uk/training/102-circular-sawing-machine/safe-setting-and-guarding.aspx

Anyway, it does not change the fact that right tilt blade is safe to use.

About the dado blade being illegal...I'm not so sure about that, as I know, as long as the blade guard is installed, it is ok to use dado blade...it was up to 15.5mm and as I understand it's going to be (or it's already) 3/4" as you can read it here
http://www.greatbritishwoodshop.co.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=170

That's the only reference that I have (HSE regulation and/or the EU safety regulations booklets are not free as the American ones).

Regards
niki


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## Gurnett (Jan 26, 2008)

The issue of the stacked dados is this. They are not illegal in the sence of one being arrested if found using. However, as it has been previously stated, new saws in Europe are sold with a break. These breaks are not made to cope with heavier blade systems mounted on them. Therefore it is possible that using a stacked dado becomes to heavy for the brake and can therefore not stop within the 10 second time limit. All these point are mentioned in the link you posted. For this reason many manufacturers do not even carry dado sets in their product catalogue in Europe, but do in the US. I myself do use stacked dados (imported from the US). Ofcourse old saws without breaks don't have this restriction.


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Gurnett
Yes, I read it also in some forum that because of the brake dado blade cannot be used not only because of the 10 seconds but they say that the Arbor nut can get released.

My table saw is fitted with the brake and the arbor is short and cannot accommodate dado blade.

Edit: I read the document (and this time more in deep) again and I can see what deceived me.

This document is from 2004 but at 2005 the "brake within 10 seconds" law came in force and probably all the dado blades became illegal... 

Regards
niki


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## Buffalo Bilious (Aug 20, 2007)

Ahh... a "short fence". It took me a minute, but now I get it. (more-so after I watched the video)

The fence length ends at the saw blade (just before the arbor). So once the cut stock passes the sawblade, there's no fence beyond the blade that may contribute to pushing or pinching it back towards the blade and causing kickback.

Seems like a sound idea to me...


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## vinnyb76 (Sep 25, 2007)

with myself having no experience on a left tilt blade i was just wandering if when you cut a rip of say 2" with a 45 degree angle does the material come off the bed and ride up the blade a little if so how do you overcome this would you use a featherboard on the fence or try and hold it down with a pushstick while cutting.
sorry guys but using left tilt seems strange to me, im not saying its wrong because it is`nt, its mainly down to preference i guess comparable to you guys in the us driving on the right hand side to us brits on the left neither are wrong just different.


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## Howard Ferstler (Sep 27, 2007)

niki said:


> Vinnyb76
> Thank you for your supportive reply
> 
> Woodman
> ...


Those pictures of your saw in action were very impressive. And as best I can tell your approach to cutting would work more than satisfactorily, particularly with the riving knife and that short fence that eliminates fence pinching once the workpiece is past the blade.

As for splitters vs riving knives, well, I can see how the latter is superior. However, once the workpiece extends far enough past the blade to be engaging the splitter it looks as if the latter will work as well as a riving knife. It is that brief interval before the workpiece interacts with the splitter that there is danger, I suppose, and the thinner the workpiece the wider that dangerous interval will be, because the blade would be retracted further into the table and be further from the splitter.

One thing that might be important is the kerf width of the blade. If a blade has a wide kerf a splitter or riving knife might not be able to separate the two halves adequately. For this reason, I always use narrow kerf blades with my portable (and only) table saw.

Howard Ferstler


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Buffalo
I'm not "fanatic" about the short fence, I'm using also a home-made long fence and even longer that yours especially on the Infeed side. I believe that a longer Infeed side fence is very important for a good support and guidance of the workpiece into the blade.

But, I use the long fence only when I'm cutting man-made boards or, say 1/2"~1" from a wide board and of course when I'm cutting thin strips as on the pics below. When I'm cutting a 7"~10" board into two - I use short fence...


Vinnyb76
Please look again on the pictures of the bevel cut.
On 2 of them you can see that I'm cutting a board that is 35mm x 35mm (1-3/8" x 1-3/8") and everything works perfect but...

Just to be on the safe side and to keep your fingers far away from the blade, you can make a "feather roller" as I did. The roller is pressing the workpiece to the fence before entering the blade.

On the last pics, you can see that I'm using two-wheels feather rollers

An easier to make and use "feather roller" is the one on the pics below.
It's not only pressing the workpiece to the fence but also, it presses the workpiece down to the table.
I think that it's good to have it around the table saw for use with any rip cut.






































































Howard
Well, you are correct in a way that splitter and riving knife are "almost" the same but probably the European safety board selected the riving knife because this small "almost".

I don't know what is the distance of the splitter from the blade but the riving knife is installed 1/8"~5/16" behind the blade.

The problem is that when you start the cut or finish the cut, there is some distance between the blade and the splitter and the kickback can "catch" you at this last part.

As for the kerf width and riving knife thickness, please look at the drawing below...the riving knife can suit only one type or kerf of a blade and if you want to change from "normal" kerf (1/8") to "thin" kerf, you must change the riving knife to suit the thin kerf.










Regards
niki


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## vinnyb76 (Sep 25, 2007)

thanks for that nikki ,looks a great way to do it, it looks like it would work out well on a left tilt blade too.


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

Niki; I read both posts and am not ignoring you, to come up with an answer just trying not to offend anyone :}:}:}:} My personal answer is I would never work like that; If I went to a job where they did that I would be out the door in a heartbeat. That said you have regs that to me dictate against safety more than help.
Second point; Look at the waste pc from those cuts, there is nothing to prevent them from becoming weapons of mass destruction.
Also on a quality issue; with right tilt every miter cut is UPSIDE DOWN, your blade is ripping OUT the finished face rather than cutting into that face as it is on a Left tilt. It is also "trapped" under the blade. 
There are none of those problems with a left tilt blade which is why they are the best for miter cuts. IMHO only. I fully understand you are working as safely as possible it is just NOT for me:no:


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Skymaster

How boring place the world would be if everybody would think, do and agree with the other...:smile: 

There is no problem with your way as long as you think and feel that it's the safe way and it works for you...as you guys are saying "there is more than one way to skin a cat"...

I'm not trying to convince you or anybody, that my way (or more correctly, my table saw way) is the correct one. I've just shown that it can work also that way.

It's true that the piece is "trapped" under the blade and the waste piece just lies on the blade but the "magic word" is "Riving knife" - that does not let any of the cut pieces to pinch the blade...

I took the pictures at the moment that the cut was finished without moving anything and in some cases (that it's hard to see) with the blade still running at full speed as you can see it on the second pic that I left the saw running and the pieces still did not past the blade...

As for our regs, I think that they are dictating very much toward more and more safety.
Just a few examples:
The Splitter was dropped at the 60th and the Riving knife took it's place.
The riving knife height is adjustable and it's never "on the way"
Short fence with High and Low positions.
The blade guard is easy to install/remove to encourage it's usage.
The Anti-kickback pawl (that are all the time on the way) - are non.
The blade must stop rotation within 10 seconds (and from this year, on all the woodworking and metalworking rotating machines).

The EU safety regulations are dictated by the Unions that wants very safe environment for the workers.....you have to see the safety regulations for other than woodworking and you'll say "what the sycies" (spell?)...:smile: 

Have a safe work
Best Regards
niki


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## vinnyb76 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Niki; I read both posts and am not ignoring you, to come up with an answer just trying not to offend anyone :}:}:}:} My personal answer is I would never work like that; If I went to a job where they did that I would be out the door in a heartbeat. That said you have regs that to me dictate against safety more than help.
> Second point; Look at the waste pc from those cuts, there is nothing to prevent them from becoming weapons of mass destruction.
> Also on a quality issue; with right tilt every miter cut is UPSIDE DOWN, your blade is ripping OUT the finished face rather than cutting into that face as it is on a Left tilt. It is also "trapped" under the blade.
> There are none of those problems with a left tilt blade which is why they are the best for miter cuts. IMHO only. I fully understand you are working as safely as possible it is just NOT for me:no:


reading this post and your earlier posts i am assuming that you think the waste piece is against the fence and that the piece which is needed is not against anything apart from the cut off, its the piece which is needed against the fence which as nikki said is controlled by a pushstick with the short fence plus use of the riving knife so you have the control needed.
on safety terms its very safe (as long as it is set up and used properley of course)sure there`s accidents but there is which ever way you use the saw and believe me when i say we have very strict safety rules on every little detail of each tool you would`nt believe how many there is :blink: but they are amongst if not the best in the world.
on the quality issue yes you are right about the rip cuts so its the better cross cuts which myself personally use a lot more off also on our table saw we have a scribe blade which gives a nice clean cut on the underside if needed.


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## Howard Ferstler (Sep 27, 2007)

niki said:


> Howard
> Well, you are correct in a way that splitter and riving knife are "almost" the same but probably the European safety board selected the riving knife because this small "almost".
> 
> I don't know what is the distance of the splitter from the blade but the riving knife is installed 1/8"~5/16" behind the blade.
> ...


Interesting. I would think that you would want a riving knife or spitter to be a tad wider than both the kurf and the saw-blade body, simply because that would make it impossible for any part of the blade (body or cutting tip on the outfeed side) to pinch and snag the workpiece after it was cut.

When cutting thick material a splitter might be nearly as close to the blade as a riving knife. However, it is obvious that the thinner the workpiece the further from the blade the splitter will be.

In any case, if a blade tip is maybe an inch or two or three from the splitter it looks like it would be difficult for the wood to bend enough in that short distance to snag the blade. Once past that point the splitter would do its job. No doubt having a properly aligned fence will do a lot to prevent snags, with or without a splitter.

Howard Ferstler


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## Buffalo Bilious (Aug 20, 2007)

Niki, you should write a book with your tips, tricks, jig designs and advice.

Just the pics and explanations that you post here are each worth a chapter all by themselves.

Great job, and thanks for sharing your knowledge. 

Na Zdrowie! :thumbsup:


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## aclose (Nov 11, 2007)

*great thread!*

it's very informative to see how tools are used on the other side of the pond. :smile:
i'm in the market for a tablesaw and have been holding off waiting for US models to add the riving knife. only a couple high end/expensive saws have them now; although more are supposed to have them in 2008... isn't it 2008? :laughing:

maybe i should start looking at European models. the blade brake sounds like another good feature that we're missing. SawStop's brake isn't quite the same as the European brake; although an awesome safety feature none the less.

anyone care to share European brand names?


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## niki (Jul 16, 2007)

Howard
I'm too "small" to know why they selected this thickness but in any case we are talking about very small difference between the kerf and the riving knife thickness and probably, at this difference, there is no enough "meat" for the blade teeth to catch the wood and throw it.

As for the distance of riving knife and splitter, I can just say that according to the safety regulations, the riving knife must not be more than 5/16" (I set it to 1/8") behind the blade and probably there is a good reason for that.

As you know, the American OSHA is demanding that Anti-kickback pawls (or fingers as they call them) must be provided with the table saw, while the EU safety regulation does not require anything like that.

I'm not so familiar with splitter but if you are saying that, the more you lift the blade, the closer it comes to the splitter, maybe it's good idea to set the blade at full height...as long as the guard is installed, I don't see any danger.
I know that the recommendation is to set the blade to protrude 1/4" or so above the wood for "safety reasons" but I never understood which "safety reasons"...if the guard is covering the exposed portion of the blade, what's the problem. Of course if the guard is not used.......

I'm working normally with "high blade" (I'm talking only about ripping solid wood)...If you can, please make an experiment. Take some 1" thick white Oak, set the blade to 1¼" or so and cut.
Note the feed rate, the motor noise and the force required to push the Oak through the blade.
Now, set the blade at max height (please use the guard) and cut again...you will see that the feed rate increases, the motor is not slowing down so much and the push force, decreased. 

And if the feed rate is higher, the blade (or the motor) runs at it's optimal speed and the motor is stressed less or in other words, the blade will run cooler and the motor will run cooler. Look at the Band saw, usually less powerful motor than table saw and no carbide teeth and it's resawing 5~6" very nicely. Same with hand saw but please have a look at this website to see it with drawings
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Tablesaw/tablesaw.htm

Buffalo
Thank you but forget about the book, I love to be in my small garage than in front of the word processor.....maybe when I'll get old....:smile: 

Aclose
I don't think that it's good idea to buy a Euro saw. First, they are very expensive (see Festool). My table saw costs $2000 and the table is only of extruded aluminum but the second reason is that, I like the "mama and papa" close to me and not across the pond to wait for some stupid part.

I think that the regulation about the riving knife talks only about the "new models" or designs from 2008 so if the table saw is a 2007 model it will not include riving knife.

I think that you have very good table saws like the Powermatic, to mention one, that comes with a riving knife....no blade brake but on Euro saw you will not be able to use dado blade.

Regards
niki


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## Howard Ferstler (Sep 27, 2007)

niki said:


> Howard
> 
> I'm working normally with "high blade" (I'm talking only about ripping solid wood)...If you can, please make an experiment. Take some 1" thick white Oak, set the blade to 1¼" or so and cut.
> Note the feed rate, the motor noise and the force required to push the Oak through the blade.
> ...


You know, I have wondered why they recommend that the blade only protrude a small distance above the workpiece. Supposedly, it helps to keep the gullet clean, but I really cannot see how this would be the case. I read somewhere else that it also reduces tearout, but, again, I have problems seeing why this would be the case.

What you point out regarding motor and blade strain makes sense, because if the blade is sticking out only a short distance above the workpiece the low cutting angle has it cutting through a substantial thickness of wood. On the other hand, if the blade is raised up high the cutting angle is such that the wood thickness being cut is considerably less. This would explain why raising the blade high up will put less of a strain on both the blade and the wood.

In any case, in my situation an experiment is in order.

Howard Ferstler


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## Suz (Dec 8, 2006)

Howard Ferstler said:


> You know, I have wondered why they recommend that the blade only protrude a small distance above the workpiece. <SNIP>Howard Ferstler


In my opinion the reason for having the blade protrude a small distance is if the operator should run his hand into the saw, the cut would be only an 1/8 of an inch or so rather than a deep cut. (Easier for the surgeon to repair.)


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