# Speaking Out



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mveach said:


> Cabinetman needs to change his name two I hate pocket holes man. I use many types of joinery each has its uses each has its drawbacks. There is always more than one technique to solve any problem. By the way C man just yanking your chain!


I'm sure there would be some clapping if I did change my name to that. That's not anywhere near yanking my chain. It takes more than that.:laughing:

I think I'm being misunderstood. I don't think I ever said I hate pocket screws, or that it is wrong to use them. I think I've been courteous in portraying my opinion. 

We are on a woodworking forum, and I hope my input promotes, suggests and emphasizes the essence of what the woodworking craft has been to many. I feel it's imperative for the preservation of the basic techniques, to address methods that newcomers may think is the "best" way to do joinery.

Pocket screws may be a "quick" assembly method. It may work for many who don't have the time or tooling to do traditional joinery. To wait an hour or so for a glue joint to dry may be a waste of time. I was going to list some threads from this and other forums of those with pocket screw problems. I was going to list many of those that were pertinent to conditions or procedures that screwed (sorry for the pun) up their work. 

I see very few threads about how problematic dadoes, rabbets and some other methods are. For those that say that they have used pocket screws thousands of times, and have used them on multi-million dollar jobs, with no problems...way to go. I'm not badmouthing their use. I agree that a function of woodworking forums is to present products and procedures. For the most part hobbyists may be on a budget, or have a time restraint. For all the responses to purchase jigs and use alternative methods, there should be responses that teach and promote woodworking craftsmanship. 

I feel there is a feeling of pride in workmanship, and to see fitting parts make up a project is very rewarding. For some that see the need for using pocket screws and biscuits for that matter, both the pros and cons of their use should be a point of discussion. This learning process can be a starting place in understanding the truths to the issues of whatever method or product is being used. 

My input on issues is just my opinion. I appreciate contrasting points of view. I used to have a signature that went like this:
_"I'm never wrong...but I might not always be right".
_ 











 







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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

*Name change? Naw!*

C-Man, your posts are among the most informative I read regularly....and I regularly read your posts. Your online name is accurately descriptive of your knowledge and skill. No change needed.:thumbsup:
As to pocket screws: I use 'em and, I'm so proud of them that I hide 'em.:laughing:
However, no one appreciates a great fitting, non mechanical, joint more than I.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok Cman while agree with you on not liking pocket screws, I know you have said "I dont like them" which is slightly different them hating them.

I also have read a few post of yours where you blasted the idea of using pocket screws. I hate nails thru a face frame more then I dislike pocket screws. However this post has both your words "I don't like them" and is one of the post that I referred to you blasting the use of them. 

You need to admit it Cman " You hate pocket screws " :laughing:


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## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> I'm sure there would be some clapping if I did change my name to that. That's not anywhere near yanking my chain. It takes more than that.:laughing:
> 
> 
> .


I do hope I did not Offend, even though I was poking a bit of fun.:icon_smile:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rrbrown said:


> Ok Cman while agree with you on not liking pocket screws, I know you have said "I dont like them" which is slightly different them hating them.
> 
> I also have read a few post of yours where you blasted the idea of using pocket screws. I hate nails thru a face frame more then I dislike pocket screws. However this post has both your words "I don't like them" and is one of the post that I referred to you blasting the use of them.
> 
> You need to admit it Cman " You hate pocket screws " :laughing:


I can't remember ever using the word "hate" in reference to pocket screws. I have used the words (hate and dislike) in reference to my second ex wife.:laughing:

Yep...I did say dislike. And that's just my opinion on pocket screws and my ex wife.












 







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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> I can't remember ever using the word "hate" in reference to pocket screws. I have used the words (hate and dislike) in reference to my second ex wife.:laughing:
> 
> Yep...I did say dislike. And that's just my opinion on pocket screws and my ex wife.


Now, I wish you hadn't said that! From now on, every time I use a pocket screw, I'm gonna see horrible visions of my  ex wives. I just may have to toss my Kreg jig!:laughing:


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## verdesardog (Apr 2, 2011)

I bet you dislike biscuits too.... LOL


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

...and wax  lmao


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

Cabinetman,

As Gene pointed out, You always have a very good point of view when it comes to the threads you address. I agree, and applaud you for trying to encourage the rest of us woodworkers to explore our woodworking abilities, and attempt to treat it like the art that it could be. 

I used pockethole screws and when I did for the first time, I felt "dirty" in a way, because I felt like I cheated. The reason I did was because I didn't know how I could make a mortise with the tools I had, and was looking for the easy way to make a faceframe. I still use them, but when I have the opportunity to use more traditional methods, I will, so as to have that extra sense of pride. 

Since joining this forum, I have learned that I have alot to learn, and alot of that has come from your answers. While I thought I knew quite a bit, I have been corrected, and learned from my mistakes. I greatly appreciate that, and strive to become a better woodworker.

One last note, when people bring up, "Cabinetman will say this....." I am sure it mostly is because they respect your opinions, which you have no problem expressing. I think that it is no secret how you feel about pocket hole screws, or waxing tooltops. 

Keep up the great work, cabinetman.

Fabian


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

verdesardog said:


> I bet you dislike biscuits too.... LOL


Nope. Not me. Butter & honey but, best with sausage gravy and a side of scrapple and eggs.


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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

C-man, you do have a wealth of knowledge, and, luckily, you're willing to share it with everyone. I can see some remarks being misinterpreted, mostly because it might not be what we want to hear at that moment. Maybe it awakens that little voice inside that says "I coulda done better". Nothing wrong with that. Without broad opinions and differing views, our projects will start to be the same. A little kick in the backside will make people either go somewhere else, or, hopefully they will strive for the next level.

Keep speaking out, please. I myself know you're not trying to be mean, just helpful.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

I hate pocket screws. Sure, they are a short cut, slip shod, expedient, low skill, short lived, poor excuse for joinery but that's not why I hate them. I hate them because I often install factory made cabinets that have used pocket screws. You have to watch where you put your fingers when lifting the cabinets. Those long pockets have splintery edges and you'll get a finger full. Those dang screws are in the way when you want to add frieze boards, nail on crown moldings, light rail moldings, try to stack cabinets or add accessories like spice racks or wine bottle grids. The big pocket holes remove a lot of meat behind the trim and this can cause face cracking or splitting. You can't get any fasteners anywhere near the corners where you might need them the most. I began my hate of pocket screws when nailing a crown molding on some new cabinets and the nail hit the pocket screw then did an about face coming out the front of the face frame, busting out a large chunk, pocket screws suck.


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## htank (Oct 25, 2010)

It's funny because I am making a set of end table now and was going to use pocket screws, but after reading this it made me do M&T and try my hand at hand cut dovetails. I think cabinetman is right, I take more pride knowing that I did it the correct way and didnt take any short cuts.

I think cabinetman has forgot more about woodworking than I will never know. I really enjoy reading what he has to say, the knowledge he has is incredible.


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

C-man, 

I read all your posts because I find them very informative. I find being a newbie to WW pocket screws come in very handy, they don't require many extra tools and they are quick and easy. That being said everytime I use pocket screws there's a little voice in my head saying, "why dont you try a M&T or a dado." 

I think for newbs like me the pocket screws are invaluable and over time more complex and traditional joinery will find its way into the arsenal. I have a feeling once you go M&T you don't go back to pocket screws.


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## verdesardog (Apr 2, 2011)

New2Woodworking said:


> C-man,
> 
> I read all your posts because I find them very informative. I find being a newbie to WW pocket screws come in very handy, they don't require many extra tools and they are quick and easy. That being said everytime I use pocket screws there's a little voice in my head saying, "why dont you try a M&T or a dado."
> 
> I think for newbs like me the pocket screws are invaluable and over time more complex and traditional joinery will find its way into the arsenal. I have a feeling once you go M&T you don't go back to pocket screws.


It depends what the application is, sometimes pocket screws are just a lot easier and faster and make more sense than time consuming m/t joints.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

New2Woodworking said:


> C-man,
> 
> I read all your posts because I find them very informative. I find being a newbie to WW pocket screws come in very handy, they don't require many extra tools and they are quick and easy. That being said everytime I use pocket screws there's a little voice in my head saying, "why dont you try a M&T or a dado."
> 
> I think for newbs like me the pocket screws are invaluable and over time more complex and traditional joinery will find its way into the arsenal. I have a feeling once you go M&T you don't go back to pocket screws.


Newbie or not what you do now is experience or practice. What you practice or have experience with is usually what you stay with. break the cycle now or you may never break it.


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

*Good Advice*



rrbrown said:


> Newbie or not what you do now is experience or practice. What you practice or have experience with is usually what you stay with. break the cycle now or you may never break it.


That's definitly good advice. This past weekend I went out and bought a dovetail saw and guage and plan on putting it to use on some scrap.


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## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

Sounds like C-man among a few others have inspired a number of people to try their hand at the fine art of hand cut joinery and that is never a bad thing. enjoy


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## JerryO (Jul 26, 2010)

I'm 76 and I have used m&t joints, hand cut and router cut dovetails etc. And yes I have used pocket screws too. If I'm working with cherry or more expensive woods I will use the ways grandpa tought me. I find that regardles of how I build something as long as it is square and functional I am happy and feel a sence of accomplishment.


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## dining sets (Apr 24, 2011)

Beautiful.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Mike,
Once in a well respected woodworking magazine's survey about pocket screws, I once said, "Why would I want to build something that looked like it came from WalMart?"

OK, yesterday I attached a drawer front using pocket screw joints,

*BUT*

The drawer front is on the edge of a pull out router bit tray in my router table.

Also the screws themselves are rather handy. The screw is a clamping device and they have a *REAL* Robertson drive head. (Not a Philips / Robertson) I find myself using the screws as appropriate. The screws (1-1/4" Washer head) are great for attaching wood handles to 3/4" thick drawer fronts. And the washer head allows for easy handle alignment.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Like just about everything else...pocket hole screws have their function and place...i've used them and like them....there is nothing inherently wrong with a pocket hole screw....it's a screw.......but I do agree that they should not be used to the exclusion of other forms of fine joinery......but if one is not interested in perfecting the other forms...then use pocket hole screws where it makes sense to do so....


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