# solid pine table top



## Piggy (Mar 11, 2013)

:huh:I refinished an old pine table. The top is solid pine approx 3" thick. It sanded and stained perfect. I first sanded off the old finish. Then I used a wood conditioner so that it would stain evenly. I used Carver Tripp american walnut. I then started with lots of coats of Zar wipe on tung oil finish, using a steel wool pad in 0000 between coats. I then let the table sit for aprox. 2 weeks. Now that it is in the house, the top seems to scratch very,very easily. I have never had this problem with Zar wipe on finish. I cannot use this table to eat, etc. if it is going to scratch like this. Can anyone help me figure out what is going on? I have used Zar wipe on finish on other projects and never had them scratch this much or this easily. Regards, Piggy ps, I forgot to mention that the surface seems very soft. I know pine is soft wood, but I am talking about the finish on the table and the table it self seems soft. I let it dry approx. 2 weeks inside before using.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

A tung oil finish is a good finish but a pain to do. You can't just put a bunch of coats on it like it was varnish. You have to let each coat dry sometimes weeks between coats. The way to tell when a coat is dry enough for another coat is to briskly rub the surface with a clean dry cloth and see if the rag smells like tung oil. Even though,you can't expect as hard of a finish as many different protective coatings.


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## Piggy (Mar 11, 2013)

Thank you for your quick answer, The ZAR tung oil finish says it has poly in it. I did rub with a clean rag and got NO ordor Where do I go from here/ I can certainly re-sand the top to get out the scratches, but what do I use, in your recommendation, for my final coat? I am open to all suggestions. We will use it as our main dining table. Regards, piggy


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If it had no odor then what you have applied already is dry. You can keep applying the tung oil until you build a thicker finish or you could coat it with something else. Depending on the hardness you desire you might use an oil based polyurethane or a harder coating would be a conversion varnish.


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## Piggy (Mar 11, 2013)

your advise is a Godsend, thank you for the quick answers. I do desire as hard a finish as possible, with three grand children. What do you sugges as to product? I am willing to go get what ever I need. Regards to you, Piggy


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would recommend conversion varnish available at Sherwin Williams in most states. Some places like California wouldn't allow it. Since you have dry tung oil on it already, all you would need to do is sand it with 220 grit sandpaper to smooth it and apply the varnish. Be sure to use in good ventilation. Any two part finish is hazardous. I can't get the MSDS with my computer. Be sure to ask for one at Sherwin Williams. 

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/...egory=substrates/wood/wood_finishes_topcoats/


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## Piggy (Mar 11, 2013)

Do you think I can buy this product in small quantities? if not, anything else you recommend? Regards, Piggy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

That wipe on finish is a stand alone finish. It's not an oil treatment, and from the MSDS has no Tung oil in it, but rather linseed oil. If it's not drying or doesn't harden, the varnish in it may be contaminated, or it may not have been stirred enough, or the solvent may have experienced some evaporation. 

At this stage, I would let it dry, and then apply a straight interior varnish, or a wipe on oil base polyurethane in thin applications. The Zar sounds like the oil ratio is too high.











 







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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Piggy said:


> Do you think I can buy this product in small quantities? if not, anything else you recommend? Regards, Piggy


I'm sorry, I didn't notice the 5 gallon quantities. You might call a sherwin williams store and find out if it's possible to get a smaller amount. Perhaps they had a can that was damaged they could pour into a empty gallon can. I was trying to think of a place easy for you to find some without mail ordering it. The hasmat fees are bad on shipping paint. If you still want the conversion varnish try here. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=577 

Another option would be a interior oil based polyurethane. To make it harder you can add a small amount of enamel hardener available at tractor supply. The hardener contains isocyanate which is very hazardous especially to spray so if you choose to use it try to stay upwind. A person really needs a air supplied respirator to spray it.


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## jeclose (Oct 21, 2014)

Hi there,

I saw that you recently used this stain on a project. I have been looking for this stain for several years, as I have used it extensively in my house in all kinds of wood-finished cabinets and furniture, so it is somewhat distressing that I cannot buy it anymore since the Parks Corp. discontinued this line of stains.

I would be interested in purchasing some or all of your supply of this stain, if you are interested. It would help me a lot as I have windows that I need to stain to match adjacent windows done in this stain color. 

Much obliged. You can also contact me at [email protected] or 518-664-2980.


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## jeclose (Oct 21, 2014)

....


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

First, let me say that sanding is a very poor way to remove an existing finish. Sanding will not remove the finish that has penetrated into the wood or pores. Residual finish will impeded the even absorption of any new stain applied and cause it not to completely dry. Any clear topcoat applied may not dry properly either.

From you description, it sounds like your clear coat did not fully dry which causes it to be easily scratched or abraded. With the number of coats you applied, it is probable that the stain did not have an adequate time to fully dry. When you applied all those coats of top coat, it impeded and stopped the oxygen from causing complete drying of the initial and subsequent coats.

I am not familiar with your stain but does the product label say to apply, let set 15-20 minutes and then thoroughly wipe off any excess? This is necessary step with oil based pigment stains. If you do not perform this step, the stain will not dry and any top coat will not dry either.

The only way to recover is to remove the finish using a chemical paint stripper containing the methylene chloride and starting over. Be sure to carefully follow the directions on the product labels. Be sure the stain is given plenty of time to completely dry. I allow five days. Follow the re-coat time and instructions for your clear coats.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Well, actually you can sand a finish off. Either way, a stripper will not remove a finish that has penetrated a wood either. You would have to sand after stripping to "attempt" to get past the already penetrated finish.....which would be whatever clear finish was applied, such as a washcoat.

Even when you chemically strip a finish, you then should wipe off with acetone or a similar solvent and sand until the stain is gone, which is nearly impossible to do on veneer for fear of sanding through it. 

Many of times i have sanded through older finishes without using a stripper....here lately grandfather clocks.....with shellac as the finish. The only difference is when you strip or sand a finish, it restains differently as if a conditioner has been applied because any prior finished has already penetrated and sealed the wood. You can "reach" original raw wood if its solid wood, but you would still have to sand down pretty good to get to it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Well, actually you can sand a finish off. Either way, a stripper will not remove a finish that has penetrated a wood either. You would have to sand after stripping to "attempt" to get past the already penetrated finish.....which would be whatever clear finish was applied, such as a washcoat.
> 
> Even when you chemically strip a finish, you then should wipe off with acetone or a similar solvent and sand until the stain is gone, which is nearly impossible to do on veneer for fear of sanding through it.
> 
> Many of times i have sanded through older finishes without using a stripper....here lately grandfather clocks.....with shellac as the finish. The only difference is when you strip or sand a finish, it restains differently as if a conditioner has been applied because any prior finished has already penetrated and sealed the wood. You can "reach" original raw wood if its solid wood, but you would still have to sand down pretty good to get to it.


Sorry Randy but you can get every bit of finish out of the wood and the majority of the old stain if you use the right remover and know what you are doing. It goes better if you use a water wash remover and rinse the wood with a low powered power washer. The best remover I've used is Kwick Kleen #125 or Benco B7 removers. The problem with sanding the finish off is you never know if you have sanded it enough and then there is molding and other details you really can't sand it. The wood may appear to be sanded clean and when you go to stain it some of the old finish is preventing the stain from penetrating.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Sorry Randy but you can get every bit of finish out of the wood and the majority of the old stain if you use the right remover and know what you are doing. It goes better if you use a water wash remover and rinse the wood with a low powered power washer. The best remover I've used is Kwick Kleen #125 or Benco B7 removers. The problem with sanding the finish off is you never know if you have sanded it enough and then there is molding and other details you really can't sand it. The wood may appear to be sanded clean and when you go to stain it some of the old finish is preventing the stain from penetrating.


I know you can remove the finish with a stripper and some of the stain, but not all the stain. 

Ive never seen a stripper of any kind remove a stain from wood without having to go back and sand the stain off. Dye stains you can forget it. Even if you scrap it with a wire brush there is still stain on the wood. Strippers will not penetrate into the wood and pull stain out of the wood. Strip the finish off, yes. ...take the stain out of wood, no. Never. Theres been several threads on here, one being the oak stairs, that were sanded off without using a stripper and all the finish was removed except the high travel areas.....which a chemical stripper would not have removed it from those areas either.

If i had to pick between washing a finish off and using a chemical stripper, i would pick washing the finish off any day. Like i said, either way you still will have to sand it down to the bare wood.....through the stain.

When i do grandfather clocks here lately, i sand it down through the finish to the bare wood with 180 on an orbital, and i use 150 by hand on the trim and in all the little nooks and crannys....with a little elbow grease it comes right off. No chemical stripper at all. Ive done several that had shellac and a couple with nitrocellulose lacquer with no problems at all.

Its like spraying a washcoat on maple, scuff sanding and then applying a dye stain. You can apply stripper all you want to but its not going to remove the dye stain that has attached to the washcoat thats penetrated the wood. You would have to sand it out.If that maple panel was finished out to the topcoat and you stripped it with a stripper, it would strip everything but the dye stain and the penetrated washcoat.....thars where you would have to sand it out.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

An example of what you can do with removers. Currently I'm using a Besway remover which isn't near as good and Kwick Kleen or Benco. This Douglas fir door I recently stripped had been strained black with an ebony stain. Most of the color left on the door is from water damage rather than the stain. The residue from the Besway remover is just harder to rinse off than the other brands. Since I won't pay the shipping fees for the other stuff I'm stuck with what my supplier sells. It gets the job done. 

Much of aniline dyes come off too when stripped. They are more stubborn than oil stains but enough comes off it isn't a problem unless the furniture is to be finished to a natural color.


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## jeclose (Oct 21, 2014)

Piggy, 

Just want to clarify that I am looking for the *Carver Tripp American Walnut Stain* that you said you used in your project. If you are willing to part with some or all of this, please let me know.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> An example of what you can do with removers. Currently I'm using a Besway remover which isn't near as good and Kwick Kleen or Benco. This Douglas fir door I recently stripped had been strained black with an ebony stain. Most of the color left on the door is from water damage rather than the stain. The residue from the Besway remover is just harder to rinse off than the other brands. Since I won't pay the shipping fees for the other stuff I'm stuck with what my supplier sells. It gets the job done.
> 
> Much of aniline dyes come off too when stripped. They are more stubborn than oil stains but enough comes off it isn't a problem unless the furniture is to be finished to a natural color.


yes, but your still gonna have to sand it in order to get the color off thats still on the door and its still gonna stain differently in that condition because the door is still sealed in the current state its in. I could do the same thing by either sanding it down with 180 grit or washing it off with MEK instead of using a stripper. Thats all i was saying. Stripping can get messy. Most of your furniture factories will dip that into a bath of MEK or a wash-off solution and in 10 minutes it will look like that after ragging it off.

About the only time i use a chemical stripper is if there is alot of carvings or hang up areas, such as "old world" furniture and things like that.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> yes, but your still gonna have to sand it in order to get the color off thats still on the door and its still gonna stain differently in that condition because the door is still sealed in the current state its in. I could do the same thing by either sanding it down with 180 grit or washing it off with MEK instead of using a stripper. Thats all i was saying. Stripping can get messy. Most of your furniture factories will dip that into a bath of MEK or a wash-off solution and in 10 minutes it will look like that after ragging it off.
> 
> About the only time i use a chemical stripper is if there is alot of carvings or hang up areas, such as "old world" furniture and things like that.


The door may very well be 100 years old. The door will have to be sanded anyway but not to remove the stain but to remove the damage it's had over the years. If it wasn't for the damage I could stain it like it is and the problem I would have is it absorbing too much stain since the wood is old and dry. I never claimed stripping would remove 100% of stain but it does remove 100% of the finish. It will even lift grain filler out of walnut and mahogany.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The door may very well be 100 years old. The door will have to be sanded anyway but not to remove the stain but to remove the damage it's had over the years. If it wasn't for the damage I could stain it like it is and the problem I would have is it absorbing too much stain since the wood is old and dry. I never claimed stripping would remove 100% of stain but it does remove 100% of the finish. It will even lift grain filler out of walnut and mahogany.


Whats all the big light spots on the door?

Theres alot of color left on that door. That door is so uneven in color, that if you stained it right now, you would have to go back and shade it all over with a dye stain to get it to look even. Where as I would sand it down with 180 on an orbital to get most of the color off so when I stain it, I wouldnt have to shade it as much, and I could also go with a slightly lighter color if the customer wanted it light. Sanding that door down would be easy to do because its so flat.

I know that a stripper will pull the finish off, and it will pull out some bondo, etc. but it will not pull a previous sealer OUT of the wood that was applied as a washcoat or preconditioner. That stain that still remains after stripping is there because the first seal coat is still protecting the wood stain applied and has penetrated with the stain into the wood. 

If you take a 2 chairs that has been finished at the same time, strip it to what you think is the bare wood (say they had no stain applied) and then sand one chair and not the other, stain both of them, the one you didnt sand down will be lighter simply because there is still some sealer still embedded in the wood of the one not sanded. 

You can also take maple or any other of the soft woods and strip them down and refinish them without applying a preconditioner and get an even stain. Thats because the wood is still sealed from the previous finish that was applied. Simply stripping the finish will not take that out. You have to sand down into the wood to remove it 100%, even then would be hard to do depending on what wood your working with. Softer woods are nearly impossible to remove 100% because a preconditioner penetrates so far into the wood. Even if you dont use a preconditioner, whatever you would use as a first seal coat will penetrate into the wood almost the same way as the preconditioner would. Not getting into a debate, but thats what I have seen over my years of finishing and from other people that have stripped wood and refinished it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The big spots on the door is water stains. The smaller spots are famowood. Anyway that is the exterior side of the door and I haven't decided whether I'm going to paint that side yet or not. If I do stain it I'm reluctant to use any dye for shading as it would face south in the Texas sun and fade. If I go down that road I will probably just thin the oil stain for the darker areas. 

"I know that a stripper will pull the finish off, and it will pull out some bondo, etc. but it will not pull a previous sealer OUT of the wood that was applied as a washcoat or preconditioner. That stain that still remains after stripping is there because the first seal coat is still protecting the wood stain applied and has penetrated with the stain into the wood." 

With the removers I use there is no sealer left in the wood. There is sometimes pigment left from stains or dyes but the wood could be stained as easily as new wood. 

"If you take a 2 chairs that has been finished at the same time, strip it to what you think is the bare wood (say they had no stain applied) and then sand one chair and not the other, stain both of them, the one you didn't sand down will be lighter simply because there is still some sealer still embedded in the wood of the one not sanded." 

With the removers I use I have the opposite result. They are water wash removers that raise the grain and the chair not sanded would absorb more of the stain than the sanded one. You know how when you are sanding and it gets a drop of sweat on the wood you didn't catch. Then when the stain is applied the drop with the sweat is much darker. It's the same with furniture that comes out of the stripping process I do. Also maple, alder and other woods prone to blotch I have to use a pre-stain conditioner just as though it was new wood.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

What stripper do you use? I will be sure to try some next time i have to strip a piece of furniture.

On that door, i dont think i would stain it, i think i would make a toner to whatever the color stain they wanted. I would make up a shade and shade up the light spots with a sap dye stain and with the toner on top of it, it will help make it more light fast. Seal it with a uv resistant spar varnish and you wouldnt have to worry about it again.....not in your lifetime anyway.

Or just paint it. Lol. :laughing:


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## Jerry Thompson (Oct 3, 2007)

Polymerized Tung oil does not take that long to dry. I wipe it and let stand for a bit, wipe it around and let it sit again and wipe it down. I can the do it again the next day, etc., until I get the look I want.
Drying, as with most all finishes, is dependent upon temp. and humidity.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> What stripper do you use? I will be sure to try some next time i have to strip a piece of furniture.
> 
> On that door, i dont think i would stain it, i think i would make a toner to whatever the color stain they wanted. I would make up a shade and shade up the light spots with a sap dye stain and with the toner on top of it, it will help make it more light fast. Seal it with a uv resistant spar varnish and you wouldnt have to worry about it again.....not in your lifetime anyway.
> 
> Or just paint it. Lol. :laughing:


The remover I used on the door is Besway B14. I'm not real happy with the stuff but it's cheap and all that is available in my area. The best remover I've used is Kwick Kleen #125. It's so potent if you feel the slightest drop hit your skin it's a immediate panic attack to get out of your stripping gloves to wash it off. 

The customer on this door is me. It came off my parents house which was stored in the basement for the last 50 years. I plan on doing as much for the door as I can and use it on my house. I'm pretty certain the door was on the house when my grandparents bought the house in 1905. If I do stain the door you can be sure I will use a marine grade spar. Right now I just can't make up my mind whether the door would look better stained or painted. The stains on the door I'm not worried about. It hasn't been touched with a sander yet. I have a hunch the discoloration doesn't run very deep.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Stained or painted.......I guess that just depends on the exterior of your house and what will blend in best to achieve an even flow. Ive seen stained doors on some houses that stick out like a sore thumb. Ive also seen houses with stained doors that look extremely good. Just depends.

You could always stain it first and hang the door and see how you like it. You can always go back and paint it if you dont like the stain.


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## woodan (Oct 29, 2014)

Steve Neul is the man! Great Advice! :thumbsup:



Teds Woodworking Exposed


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