# Transforming Tables



## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi,

So I'm new to this, started building some transforming tables and really have hit a brick wall. First I'll describe the tables. 

4 tables consisting of a 12"square center with 4 triangular leafs, making it a 17"square when all are opened. 

When the 4 are combined, a 34" square dining table is created. 

Here's the difficult part I'm struggling with....

When it's NOT together as the 34" sq, I would like 2 of the tables to be 22" tall end tables with their leafs folded down making 2, 12" square end tables. The other two would have their leafs opened and connect to make a 34x17" coffee table that sat 14" tall. 


My issue obviously is with the adjustable heights. How can I take a 28" table leg, split it in half, and be able to smoothly and nicely rejoin them to be 28" or use them as 2 separate 14" legs????

Similarly, how can I add and remove 6" from a 28" leg simply and elegantly?


The reason for this whole project is because I live in an apartment with no room for this table, but room for the end tables n coffee table. The transformation would allow me to have it all. 

THANKS!
`Danny


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Interesting one. Am always into stuff like this. Some sketches of the various configurations might be useful. I have a couple of ideas but would like some more pics first. I hate converting from imperial but that is life

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

*Concept*

So here's the thing, the primary issue to start is just the legs. Therefore I don't really have any pictures to work with. 

So.... primary question-> how can I have 2, 14" legs that connect to the underside of a table top, also come together to be one complete 28" leg. Now the two connections could be completely different, I'm not sure. 

Basically how do I get
____________
|___________|
|_| |x|
|_| |x|
|_| |x|
|_| |x| 

to become
___________
|__________|
|_|
|_|
|_|
|_|
|x|
|x|
|x| 
|x|

Thanks for the help! If I can pull this off it'll be hugely helpful to have for years to come!
`Danny


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

This may be way off base, but if it is, other members will be sure to let us both know.:smile: What about a sliding dovetail to connect the two leg sections together with a matching socket on the underside of the table when you want to use it as a "short" table? I don't know if that joint would hold up over time (a lot would depend on species of wood used), or if it would loosen a lot over time, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind. When you use it in "short mode", you could also cut a dovetail piece out of contrasting wood to fill the socket in the leg. When using both leg pieces, the dovetail filler would be stored in the socket on the table underside.

OK, there it is, what do some of you more experienced WW think?


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Would 2 sets of legs work. One at each length. I have a dining table that has legs that attach with Wing nuts. 

Otherwise a screw in attachment ; depends on how stable itall needs to be and what size legs you are working with

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

I could easily do that... just keep the other sets in the closet away while not in use... but that's way less fun! The other way all parts are being used at all times. If it's completely impossible, I'm willing to accept that, but I'd like to at least try


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

dstahl21 said:


> I could easily do that... just keep the other sets in the closet away while not in use... but that's way less fun! The other way all parts are being used at all times. If it's completely impossible, I'm willing to accept that, but I'd like to at least try


Well you could try 'T' nuts with a matching coach screw/bolt in the top of the legs. If not a 'T' nut an internally threaded collar which can be inserted in bottom the legs. Imperative would be a good square end to assure a good solid fit when screwed together. Are you turning the legs?

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

Turning them? So what I tried so far was having a t-nut on both the bottom of one and the top of another so they can come together... problem is, it's just not that seemless, and doesn't feel as sturdy as it was as a complete leg.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

trc65 said:


> This may be way off base, but if it is, other members will be sure to let us both know.:smile: What about a sliding dovetail to connect the two leg sections together with a matching socket on the underside of the table when you want to use it as a "short" table? I don't know if that joint would hold up over time (a lot would depend on species of wood used), or if it would loosen a lot over time, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind. When you use it in "short mode", you could also cut a dovetail piece out of contrasting wood to fill the socket in the leg. When using both leg pieces, the dovetail filler would be stored in the socket on the table underside.
> 
> OK, there it is, what do some of you more experienced WW think?


So this sounds awesome, and I'd love to do it.... but I don't have the tools to do so! Anyone in Atlanta want to help a kid out? 

If done well this could be awesome, and no hardware!


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

trc65 said:


> This may be way off base, but if it is, other members will be sure to let us both know.:smile: What about a sliding dovetail to connect the two leg sections together with a matching socket on the underside of the table when you want to use it as a "short" table? I don't know if that joint would hold up over time (a lot would depend on species of wood used), or if it would loosen a lot over time, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind. When you use it in "short mode", you could also cut a dovetail piece out of contrasting wood to fill the socket in the leg. When using both leg pieces, the dovetail filler would be stored in the socket on the table underside.
> 
> OK, there it is, what do some of you more experienced WW think?


I like the idea. If it were a tapered sliding dovetail that would give it a nice positive lock. The question would then come down to the profile section and of course as you mentioned species of wood used.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

dstahl21 said:


> Turning them? So what I tried so far was having a t-nut on both the bottom of one and the top of another so they can come together... problem is, it's just not that seemless, and doesn't feel as sturdy as it was as a complete leg.


For a seemless feel I would suggest joining the legs and then turning them. While I suggested t-nut I think the are other similar but stronger screw together options

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Foresta Design (Dec 26, 2011)

What about a knuckle joint that allows the legs to fold in half. When folded the leg should be stronger and when fully extended still be able to support the table. Biggest trick then would be locking the knuckle when the leg is extended. Definately interesting.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> I like the idea. If it were a tapered sliding dovetail that would give it a nice positive lock. The question would then come down to the profile section and of course as you mentioned species of wood used.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


The legs I have now are Ash. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/decor/furniture/waddell/parsons-table-leg-28-in-length-17134.html

How on EARTH do I do a tapered dovetail. I think that'd be amazing to do, but I'm concerned about stability. Can a bigger, taller dovetail be made to decrease the chance of it snapping?

Also- if I were to find someone in Atlanta to do this portion for me, where would I go lookin?


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

Foresta Design said:


> What about a knuckle joint that allows the legs to fold in half. When folded the leg should be stronger and when fully extended still be able to support the table. Biggest trick then would be locking the knuckle when the leg is extended. Definately interesting.


I'm glad I piqued the interest of significantly more experienced and talented people than I. I was hoping this would be easier as I started and quickly discovered that it's far from that! 


Also- if anyone reading is in Atlanta, I could use some help... obviously.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

If you do not have the tools to do a dovetail, how about similar concept. Route a 1/4in slot in outer and inner legs and glue 1/4in plywood strip in the outer legs. This would act similar to the walls of the dovetail. All you would see in the inner leg when in extended position would be the groove.

Like the dovetail you will need a bolt to fix the assembly in place.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

So is this something like we're talkin about? I don't know if I can make a true dovetail, but a slide joint with a bolt sliding through could do the trick. 

I attached a little drawing. I feel like I could actually do this. Route out the center chunk, and the side pieces to match on the other half, drill a hole through the whole setup, and slide a bolt through.

Thoughts?


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

dstahl21 said:


> I'm glad I piqued the interest of significantly more experienced and talented people than I. I was hoping this would be easier as I started and quickly discovered that it's far from that!
> 
> Also- if anyone reading is in Atlanta, I could use some help... obviously.


If you happen to be coming thru sunny down town Jerilderie in Australia I'd be happy to demonstrate for you. As my shop is out of commission due to the March floods I can't whip one up in the next day or so, otherwise I'd post a video for you. 

Whatever you do, be sure to post a pic of whatever you come up with.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

dstahl21 said:


> So is this something like we're talkin about? I don't know if I can make a true dovetail, but a slide joint with a bolt sliding through could do the trick.
> 
> I attached a little drawing. I feel like I could actually do this. Route out the center chunk, and the side pieces to match on the other half, drill a hole through the whole setup, and slide a bolt through.
> 
> Thoughts?


I'm really stuck on the tapered dovetail joint now. And it would be very stable I think. It is heading for 1am tues morn here - ill go get a few hours sleep and maybe do you up a sketch no so I like the one you have already done. If you have a router you could no doubt use a dovetail bit, set up a jig and do it very easy with that. Routing end grain is generally a very easy process.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

That's not good! While I would love to visit Australia, that would drastically increase the cost of these tables! 

If I can pull this whole thing off (with 4 tables and 8 multi-length table legs, that act as 3 completely different useful table tops in my apartment), I'll be very grateful. Pictures will no doubt be coming.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> I'm really stuck on the tapered dovetail joint now. And it would be very stable I think. It is heading for 1am tues morn here - ill go get a few hours sleep and maybe do you up a sketch no so I like the one you have already done. If you have a router you could no doubt use a dovetail bit, set up a jig and do it very easy with that. Routing end grain is generally a very easy process.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


Good deal. It's almost 11am here. Thanks for the help.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Sorry took so long. My net has been playing up

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> Sorry took so long. My net has been playing up
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


So I like it, the concept is great.... how do I make that with simple tools? My friends dad though I think has a table saw with a router bit. I could possibly be able to use that. 

My issue is how do I taper it like that?


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

I would use a jig like this that clamps on top of the leg and use a hand held router. The tapered guides give you a straight tapered edge for the side of your router base to follow.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Don't forget to give credit to 'Trc65'. It was he who gave me the idea of a dovetail, then I thought tapered.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Itchytoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Maybe just build them with long legs that screw into the top. Put an internally threaded insert into the top and a matching bolt sticking out of the legs then just screw them together. Then make a set of 8 or so shorter legs for when you want it shorter. Maybe you'd have room under the table tops to store the shorter legs for each table, then just swap legs when you need to.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

DaveTTC said:


> Don't forget to give credit to 'Trc65'. It was he who gave me the idea of a dovetail, then I thought tapered.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


Thanks Dave, although I had the idea, I really wasn't sure if it was a viable option and I wasn't even thinking about tapered. Thanks for illustrating that joint, you've given me some more ideas for other projects.

BTW, if you have a dovetail/gents/backsaw you could cut that joint by hand. (along with a chisel or two)


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

trc65 said:


> Thanks Dave, although I had the idea, I really wasn't sure if it was a viable option and I wasn't even thinking about tapered. Thanks for illustrating that joint, you've given me some more ideas for other projects.
> 
> BTW, if you have a dovetail/gents/backsaw you could cut that joint by hand. (along with a chisel or two)


Ok mister sir... this is fu*king hard. I tried this evening to hand cut a dovetail and it is realllly tough. I bought a nice little backsaw from a sweet woodworking shop in Atlanta. It's incredibly hard to match the 2 angles to be perfect because of a few reasons. 

1- the table legs aren't that big, so cutting them isn't easy
2- the wood is Ash, and it is quite hard wood, so cutting it also isn't easy
3- In order to fit a bolt through the joint when done, the dovetail is huge (over an inch in length), drastically increasing the chances of screwing up. 

I think I can pull this off. Trying another idea tomorrow we'll see how it works. Good thing I have scrap to test on cause this is rough hahaha

Woodworking is hard!


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

dstahl21 said:


> Woodworking is hard!


 Only the first few times you try something new.:smile: It gets much easier with time.

I'm certainly no expert on cutting dovetails by hand, the first thing I would recommend is getting some pieces of scrap and practice, practice and then practice again. If nothing else go buy a cheap 2x4 cut it into small sections and start cutting. 

The other thing I would recommend is searching this forum for a tutorial on dovetails. I can't remember who started it, but it was an excellent tutorial and offered numerous tips and tricks to make it easier. Finally, remember it isn't a race and taking your time to practice will really pay off in your final results. 

When you think you have your technique down, take two pieces of wood the same size as your legs and make a sample leg to make sure the joint will perform as you need it to. Finally, don't forget to take pictures and post them.:yes:

Good Luck....


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

So, have you considered just having the 16 legs turn into 4 legs that are heavier weight and stronger? You could make a couple of "puzzle" legs, though someone would have to spend a few hours figuring out how, that allow you to take the various legs from the small tables to "build" legs for the larger table quickly. It might be more trouble than you want to commit to at this point but it would be significantly stronger and more stable, I think, than folding legs or something similar. 

I'm also not quite sure what you're going to do with all the legs otherwise. 4 sets of table legs hanging there makes for very little leg room if you want to sit at the full size table.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

frankp said:


> So, have you considered just having the 16 legs turn into 4 legs that are heavier weight and stronger? You could make a couple of "puzzle" legs, though someone would have to spend a few hours figuring out how, that allow you to take the various legs from the small tables to "build" legs for the larger table quickly. It might be more trouble than you want to commit to at this point but it would be significantly stronger and more stable, I think, than folding legs or something similar.
> 
> I'm also not quite sure what you're going to do with all the legs otherwise. 4 sets of table legs hanging there makes for very little leg room if you want to sit at the full size table.


If you look at the original design you'll see that when up and all togehter the 34" sq table only has 8 legs, one on each corner and 4 bundled in the center of the table. No issue with foot room for the occupants at dinner. 

The other locations (noted in black squares) are where the half legs go for the coffee table (8 legs on the coffee table) and where the shortened legs go for the end tables. 

Buying more legs simply adds incredible cost to the project as I'm already buying 8 which costs about $100.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

dstahl21 said:


> If you look at the original design you'll see that when up and all togehter the 34" sq table only has 8 legs, one on each corner and 4 bundled in the center of the table. No issue with foot room for the occupants at dinner.
> 
> The other locations (noted in black squares) are where the half legs go for the coffee table (8 legs on the coffee table) and where the shortened legs go for the end tables.
> 
> Buying more legs simply adds incredible cost to the project as I'm already buying 8 which costs about $100.



I wasn't suggesting you should buy more legs, just that 4 tables, each with 4 legs, means you have to do something with 16 different legs. Your original diagram doesn't clearly show what is happening with the "shortened" legs, just that's where they are (now that I know what colors are what). 

It also looks like you're going to have to remove some of the legs completely from the small tables to create the center leg column on the large table. I'd say, without a good idea of how you're going to do that repeatedly, without ruining the legs, is going to have to be a consideration on how you joint the legs for adjusting the heights.

Conversely, you could use "telescoping" legs where the height difference is hidden by the table tops but would necessitate a "dual leg" system, either a "box within a box" or a "dowel within a tube" type situation. 

I think this is an incredibly cool idea, but looking at your original diagram I have no idea how you're going to create stable tables. At the very least you will need some sort of stretcher for the smaller tables to prevent them from racking (and possibly the same for the larger table). An apron would probably work for that but makes the drop-leaf design a little more difficult. 

Regarding the drop-leaves being opened up to form the full-size table, it's very hard to tell how you're planning to support the various parts. It looks like you have something that indicates a connector/support of some kind but I have no idea where it's going to be "hidden" when you convert to the small tables, or exactly how it's going to work.


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

Well... the design was conceptual, and I'm realizing how hard this is being. An apron might be a nice touch, but yes the drop leaf is an issue. 

I'm going to try a design tonight to have adjustable heights to the legs and see if it works. Then tomorrow I can see if I can secure it to a top and see how stable it'll be. 

I certainly am concerned that a 12" sq table might not be stable with just 2 legs (maybe need bigger legs? 3"sq legs perhaps?)

So there aren't 16 legs, there's actually 8. 2 Per table. 2 of the tables have legs that split in half and therefore make 4 equal legs. The other 2 tables simply shorten 6". So yes, I have to figure out how to make 16 connections. I think tonight's attempt will give me a good idea if I can do this. 

The dovetail attempt was a pretty big fail, but not throwing that out as an option down the road as I improve. 

I'll keep you all updated, gotta be honest, the response and activity about this is pretty awesome, so I appreciate everyone's input!


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## dstahl21 (Jun 11, 2012)

*Small Victory*

So I had a small victory today as I had massive difficulty hand cutting a dovetail. So I went with a triangular cross-cut design. This way the scrap can be kept on the leg when they are 2 separated pieces, and the joint is actually quite strong. I think with the help of a bandsaw, I can make these cuts crisply and nicely. It's 2 straight cuts, just on the bias. 

Whatcha think?


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