# Totaly undecided.



## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Hello, first post here.

Been working on a project for quite some time and am down to finishing and am lost and a little worried to move forward with the next step.

My delima is weather or not to stain, dye, gel stain or something else. It's a set of speaker cabinets and i really want to get it right the first time. Problem is they are Baltic Birch(first pic) and from what i have been reading they can be a PITA to finish. 

A few years ago I built a custom drum shell for myself (second pic) and it turned out incredible. It was African Mahogany. The color was supposed to be candy apple red but the mahogany had the last word on that  sill i was verrrrrry happy with the outcome. I chose birch for the speakers because of its acoustical characteristics, not knowing how tough it could be to finish. The finish I'm trying to achieve is somewhere along the lines of the drum or my current speakers(3rd pic). There is actually a little more red than what the picture shows. 


I think i got lucky with the drum...really. Im just looking for the safest possible way to get a rich red tone to the wood if possible.

Thanks.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

The problem with Baltic birch is that it's not sanded and has a rough texture. The species doesn't sand well. Another issue with birch is the way the grain structure is. It will go from flat and straight to more like end grain which makes it absorb stains unevenly, called blotching. Have you considered veneering the speaker cabinets, like a drum wrap? You could use mahogany for the same look as the floor tom. Birch is birch, it isn't mahogany and it isn't ever going to look like mahogany. That tom is way cool, first I've seen like that.

PS, practice the finish on scrap first, all the way to the end, no matter what you choose to do.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are wanting a bright colored stain like a candy apple red then a dye stain would be the best to do that. It would also eliminate the blotching problems associated with oil stains. Dye stains really should be sprayed though. You spray it on in even coats and if more color is needed apply more than one coat. Just don't flood the wood with it or it can be made to blotch too. 

If you do go with a oil stain be sure to use a wood conditioner. It's a sealer that helps prevent the stain from going blotchy. Birch has hard and soft spots and the soft spots just absorb more of the stain.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

You need to use dye stains to get the look of the drums. 

First, sand the speaker cabinets with 180 grit paper. Next, Apply a pre-conditioner or a washcoat and scuff sand with 320 when dry. This will stop the birch from blotching. Next, use a sap stain.....take a cherry dye stain and reduce it 1:4 with acetone and apply an even coat, this will give you the red undertone like the mahogany has. Then you can use the same finishing schedule as what you did for the drum set. Your only goal is to make the birch look similar to the African Mahogany before applying the same finishing schedule as the drum set.

It will be extremely hard to get the "flip" in the flitch as the African Mahogany has. You can, but it requires high lighting the dye stain with scotch brite and streaking out the grain pattern, but I dont think I would worry about the flip, I would shoot for the color.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Best piece of advice: Make samples on scraps of the same wood and be SURE you like the finish before starting on the actual project.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Hammer1 said:


> The problem with Baltic birch is that it's not sanded and has a rough texture. The species doesn't sand well. Another issue with birch is the way the grain structure is. It will go from flat and straight to more like end grain which makes it absorb stains unevenly, called blotching. Have you considered veneering the speaker cabinets, like a drum wrap? You could use mahogany for the same look as the floor tom. Birch is birch, it isn't mahogany and it isn't ever going to look like mahogany. That tom is way cool, first I've seen like that.
> 
> PS, practice the finish on scrap first, all the way to the end, no matter what you choose to do.



Veneering was my first consideration and still is but finding someone locally has been tough. What kind of prices are we talking about.....Labor Only. I say labor only because I know prices can vary by a huge margin with veneers. My biggest concern with a veneer is the top section that has the multi angle cuts. Had it not been for that, and it had all flat surfaces, I would try veneering myself.also in guessing where all the angle cuts are made and the layers are exposed, I would have to fill AND sand those areas.

Anybody in the Houston area wants to make a quote....p.m. me. Sanding an prep work would be done by me, I would just need the expertise of someone applying the veneer.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> If you are wanting a bright colored stain like a candy apple red then a dye stain would be the best to do that. It would also eliminate the blotching problems associated with oil stains. Dye stains really should be sprayed though. You spray it on in even coats and if more color is needed apply more than one coat. Just don't flood the wood with it or it can be made to blotch too.
> 
> If you do go with a oil stain be sure to use a wood conditioner. It's a sealer that helps prevent the stain from going blotchy. Birch has hard and soft spots and the soft spots just absorb more of the stain.


I'm familiar with the differences between water/oil based but is there a difference in richness of color. I've heard you can even use a bug sprayer to apply dye. Also after dyeing, do you or can you seal it and or varnish it.....or some kind of top coat to protect it??


And Randy, I know there is no way i could duplicate that flip or tiger stripe.....not yet at least. I'm just more interested in getting that depth and color more than anything else. Heck, I've even considered filling all the angle cuts, sanding real good, applying a good primer and having someone shoot a nice automotive black metal flake and clear coat 

If i seem longwinded, I apologize I just want to give the experts as much information as i can before i decide


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Is there much of a difference between water and oil based when it comes to color. I'm guessing if i apply a conditioner before oil based, i might have to go a step or so darker to achieve the same color since it does seal it??


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Rick Mosher said:


> Best piece of advice: Make samples on scraps of the same wood and be SURE you like the finish before starting on the actual project.


After i decide which route im taking I will ask for help with what color i should try and or what combinations, I'M actually going to buy a sheet and cut SEVERAL pieces out for trial and error.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> And Randy, I know there is no way i could duplicate that flip or tiger stripe.....not yet at least. I'm just more interested in getting that depth and color more than anything else. Heck, I've even considered filling all the angle cuts, sanding real good, applying a good primer and having someone shoot a nice automotive black metal flake and clear coat.


You can get the depth easily by using a dye stain and getting most of the color, at least 80% of the color, with the dyes....then use a washcoat to seal that background color in, then use a weak wipe stain to pop the grain. The key is color matching the background color of the drum on a scrap piece of wood as Rick suggested. You also want to put 2-3 coats of lacquer on as well for clarity.

The flip part you can do by high lighting the grain in various areas to obtain the flip from different angles, but like I said, I dont think I would worry about that and just concentrate on the color.

You can do a metal flake finish as well and not use an automotive material. Fill the wood as you said, apply 2-3 coats of a high build sealer, then shoot a black vinyl or enamel paint. Sanding is key between coats to obtain a super smooth and flat surface. You could add metal flake to a 60 sheen lacquer. It doesn't take much, maybe 4 grams of flake to a quart because you don't want to over power the color, you want it to have a shimmer look in the light. :smile:


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

RandyReed said:


> You can get the depth easily by using a dye stain and getting most of the color, at least 80% of the color, with the dyes....then use a washcoat to seal that background color in, then use a weak wipe stain to pop the grain. The key is color matching the background color of the drum on a scrap piece of wood as Rick suggested. You also want to put 2-3 coats of lacquer on as well for clarity.
> 
> The flip part you can do by high lighting the grain in various areas to obtain the flip from different angles, but like I said, I dont think I would worry about that and just concentrate on the color.
> 
> You can do a metal flake finish as well and not use an automotive material. Fill the wood as you said, apply 2-3 coats of a high build sealer, then shoot a black vinyl or enamel paint. Sanding is key between coats to obtain a super smooth and flat surface. You could add metal flake to a 60 sheen lacquer. It doesn't take much, maybe 4 grams of flake to a quart because you don't want to over power the color, you want it to have a shimmer look in the light. :smile:


Thanks for the input,it really helped. Kind of Leaning towards the first option since I do want to highlight the grain patterns. The only game changer is that if someone on here that lives nearby could do the veneer. If i did that I would either do with a burl or crotch mahogany and just ebony stain the cut edges.

I guessing either way that it would be best done unassembled. It has not been glued up yet, just being held together by a combination of 97 dowels and biscuits each.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

The drum is a replica of what is called a gongbass....if there are any musicians out there. It was made by Tama up until the late 80's. Companies make them still but they do not look let alone sound the same....not even close.

I have an original that I only bring out on very special occasions. Reason being that it has no serial number which means it was custom made for some one famous, and in the size and color there were only 3 made. One was for Carter Buford another for Stewart Copland and last but not least Neil Peart. I have no idea which and never will,but it's one of theirs.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> The drum is a replica of what is called a gongbass....if there are any musicians out there. It was made by Tama up until the late 80's. Companies make them still but they do not look let alone sound the same....not even close.
> 
> I have an original that I only bring out on very special occasions. Reason being that it has no serial number which means it was custom made for some one famous, and in the size and color there were only 3 made. One was for Carter Buford another for Stewart Copland and last but not least Neil Peart. I have no idea which and never will,but it's one of theirs.


Thats a cool story. I know very little about instruments other than finishing them. LOL.

If you get it veneered, another veneer to think about is Sapele. Its very similar to african mahogany and It will give you the flip.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

I've never heard of a gong bass. ...and that's a crazy head setup it has. Do you just buy oversize and the head itself seats on the bead instead of the rim? Finish looks great on it BTW.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I'm familiar with the differences between water/oil based but is there a difference in richness of color. I've heard you can even use a bug sprayer to apply dye. Also after dyeing, do you or can you seal it and or varnish it.....or some kind of top coat to protect it??
> 
> 
> And Randy, I know there is no way i could duplicate that flip or tiger stripe.....not yet at least. I'm just more interested in getting that depth and color more than anything else. Heck, I've even considered filling all the angle cuts, sanding real good, applying a good primer and having someone shoot a nice automotive black metal flake and clear coat
> ...


Yes after applying a dye it will need a protective coating over the top. A dye stain is similar to ink so it does nothing to protect the wood. The nice thing about dyes though is you can keep applying coats until you achieve the color you want. With oil stains they should be limited to one coat.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

was2ndlast said:


> I've never heard of a gong bass. ...and that's a crazy head setup it has. Do you just buy oversize and the head itself seats on the bead instead of the rim? Finish looks great on it BTW.



Thats exactly it. It's a 20" shell with a 22" head pulled over. I'm building a 22" now as we speak which is the same size as my rare one. When tuned to resonance they sound huge but not over the top.

Again i beleive i got lucky with the finish on the first one.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

So i am at Home Depot getting some weather stripping and i ask where i can find wood dyes....all I got was deer in a headlights.

Where can these be found and what are some better names...if any??

It looks like im going to go that way. Got no bites from anyone for veneering.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I have also seen posts here recommending spray guns. I'm guessing since i'm shooting water based, a Harbor Freight special will do. I have one right down the street so if someone can recommend one from there i would appreciate it!!


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I have also seen posts here recommending spray guns. I'm guessing since i'm shooting water based, a Harbor Freight special will do. I have one right down the street so if someone can recommend one from there i would appreciate it!!


Since your spraying WB, make sure you get a gun with a tip size of at least 1.8. 

1.3 and 1.4 are used to spray dye stains and some sealers/lacquers. Either way you can adjust the viscosity of whatever your shooting to accommodate whatever finish your planning on shooting. I dont know how long these dyes will last or how much you can make with each bottle, maybe someone else will chime in on that.

As far as dyes, I strictly use Sherwin Williams dye concentrates, but can be extremely high, about $100 for a 32 oz bottle per color, but will last you forever. Most people use transtint, and are available here:
http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Veneering__Supplies/Veneer__Dye__&__Stains/

They offer alot of colors, but in my opinion, if you get red, yellow, blue, and black (the first 5 except for the Bordeaux which you dont really need, you can make that as well) you can make any color you want.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

RandyReed said:


> Since your spraying WB, make sure you get a gun with a tip size of at least 1.8.
> 
> 1.3 and 1.4 are used to spray dye stains and some sealers/lacquers. Either way you can adjust the viscosity of whatever your shooting to accommodate whatever finish your planning on shooting. I dont know how long these dyes will last or how much you can make with each bottle, maybe someone else will chime in on that.
> 
> ...



Wow 

I was just there looking at those. For the size of my job, How much of any one color will i need 42X19X24. I plan on buying several to mix and try but I don't want to go too overboard.

I also read that after mixed, it can be stored for a SHORT time.

I apologize in advance because i will be using this as a guide in the near future, so all of my question will be asked here.

And my next is...

Since i really want to see the pattern. I am planning to Raise the grain first then sand before applying the dye.I will be using a royobi orbital with 220 grit, especially since the end cuts that show the plies need it as well. Is that fine enough? I'm guessing no further sanding will be needed during the dyeing process.

Again thanks for all the advice:thumbsup:


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> Wow
> 
> I was just there looking at those. For the size of my job, How much of any one color will i need 42X19X24. I plan on buying several to mix and try but I don't want to go too overboard.
> 
> ...


LOL, 1 quart of SW dye concentrates will last you years. 1 bottle of a trans tint color should last a pretty good while, and you can probably spray what you have with a quart of dye once its all said and done. If you store your "special made" dyes in a brown jar, you can keep it for a long time.

220 grit is fine, but I always sand white wood with 180 grit. Once whitewood is sanded, apply your dye stain, then apply 1 coat of a high build sealer, scuff sand with 320 grit, then apply 2-3 more coats of high build sealer sanding in between each coat with 280 grit. Finish off with your choice of gloss lacquer.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I just noticed this on the trans tint site:
"Suggested mix ratio is 2 oz. dye per 1/2 gallon solven but this ratio can be increased or decreased to adjust the color and saturation as needed."

So thats roughly a whole bottle ($15) to 1/2 gallon of water or a solvent. Damn. That doesnt sound like a good deal to me. I can make almost 55 gallons of a strong color with SW dyes for $100 a bottle. Maybe someone else can chime in. I have never used trans tint, but I do not some conversions from SW, to transtint and General finishes.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I use Harbor Freight sprayers. The one I use is #97855 which I get for 21 bucks with a 20% off coupon. 

The dyes I use are Ultra Penetrating Stain from Mohawk Finishing products. They are premixed alcohol based dyes. Transtint is another option however they don't carry as good a selection. Mohawk also sells dyes in powder form you could mix with water or alcohol.


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## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I've used General Finishes premixed dye stain with good results.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Ok i found a store on this side of town that sells General finishes close by. Everything else is MILES away.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Ok so I went there and all they had was gel stain from general finishes(Georgian Cherry). I know it's not exactly what we have been talking about, but I bought me 2 sheets of birch earlier to practice on and figured why not. I'm still ordering the other dyes regardless to compare. As long as I can get somewhere between my speakers I use now and my drum, I will be happy. Plus I will hopefully gain a little knowledge


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> Ok so I went there and all they had was gel stain from general finishes(Georgian Cherry). I know it's not exactly what we have been talking about, but I bought me 2 sheets of birch earlier to practice on and figured why not. I'm still ordering the other dyes regardless to compare. As long as I can get somewhere between my speakers I use now and my drum, I will be happy. Plus I will hopefully gain a little knowledge


Gel stain will just lay on top of the wood. You will get better results matching with the dye stains. The dyes will give you clarity.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Be sure to try the gel stain on scraps and see if you like it. I don't care for the stuff. It's more like thinned down enamel.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm going to play around with it but ehhh idk. It's kind of close. The top was sanded, the middile was not and the bottom was wet wiped.

I also ordered Trans Tint Red Mahogany 2oz.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

What components/drivers are u putting in the cabinets? Crossovers are tricky to get right with cabinet dimensions


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

They will be dampened by a combo of flat felt, auralex and polyester cloth. The drivers are from scanspeak and the crossover is custom for this cabinet.

There are actually 4 cabinets there instead of 2, if you look close you can see. Each tower weighs in at 160lbs.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I'm going to play around with it but ehhh idk. It's kind of close. The top was sanded, the middile was not and the bottom was wet wiped.
> 
> I also ordered Trans Tint Red Mahogany 2oz.


I thought you were matching the drum set?

If your matching what you pictured, its looks like a simple merlot finish. You will need to match a dye stain to the lighter part of the already stained wood, then apply a washcoat to lock in that color, then apply a wipe stain to get the rest of the color. Your not gonna get that exact look with just a dye stain, or just a gel stain.

You also should sand the wood to make sure you will get an even stain color.

I also dont understand what you mean by the bottom was wiped. You should also apply a wipe stain, let it soak for however long it needs, then wipe it off. By not wiping it off, you could encounter adhesion problems.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

RandyReed said:


> I thought you were matching the drum set?
> 
> If your matching what you pictured, its looks like a simple merlot finish. You will need to match a dye stain to the lighter part of the already stained wood, then apply a washcoat to lock in that color, then apply a wipe stain to get the rest of the color. Your not gonna get that exact look with just a dye stain, or just a gel stain.
> 
> ...


If you look back I said either my speakers I'm using now or my drums. This was just an experiment more then anything else. Yesterday I found a nearby place that sold General Finishes, so I hopped over there to see what they might have. They had no water base dyes at all, only the gel. So I said what the heck it's only a few dollars. So I picked one that just happened to catch my eye.

Curiosity more than anything else,I bought several sheets of birch ply to experiment on. I applied a second coat over the first today and was surprised how close it is to my speakers.

I'm still on track to use the water dyes and settled on red mahogany. But I work a 2 week on and 2 week off rotation. I head out Wednesday so I am going to have to wait untill I return in order to start. If the pic is accurate, I should be pretty happy with the red mahogany. The gel on the other hand looks like a pint will go a looooong way. 
The 2x2 area you see was done with barley the tip of a sponge brush, and after the 2nd coat I do like the tone. But not enough to put on the speakers. I do have a dining table it would look great on and maybe that will be my next project.

It may seem like I'm scatterbrained, but I'm not. Some of the things have to be done on my own and practice is the only way. One thing about gel I found out is even though it helps reduce sploches,you still have to be careful applying and spreading it or it can also lead to border marks,takes a lot of elbow grease too. That being said, spraying even seems like a safer approach since I have done automotive in the past.

When the time comes I will ask in more detail about wipe staining and washcoat. Right though, it will probability just confuse me.

What I meant about wiping was just raising the grain then sanding it down just to see if there was any difference that's all.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Just remember, even though it may look close on the samples you wiped out, once you clear it several times it will look different. So just make sure you clear your samples and get a small amount of build on it before making your decision.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I plan on using this in the future so i might as well get what's needed and try then. Just to see how this sample does turn out.
I get the several coats of clear but when you say build, i just thought you meant a couple of coats.No?

Here is a picture of the second coat. It actually looks closer in person.

And i did and overall wipe after each coat as well.

I'm guessing as opposed to a dye, if i added another coat now i would really start to lose the grain.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I get the several coats of clear but when you say build, i just thought you meant a couple of coats.No?


Yes, by build I mean 2-3 coats. 

With a gel stain, you will loose some grain. For clarity, dye stain is without a doubt the way to go.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm definitely going to use that for a dinner table in the future.I really like the way it looks, but i do have my heart set on more grain and more red.

Unfortunately, the dye will not show up until after i leave for 2 weeks. When i get back, i will have 2 major projects, this and also taking out my son's 2003 8.1 Litre engine and sending it out to become a 572ci or 9.3 litre. 8.1 equates to a 496ci.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

Wow, lots of great info here. I wanted to plug transtint as well since I used it on Birch shelves in a stereo cabinet and it turned out great. I used this $40 gun to spray it from Lowes and was super easy. 
http://www.lowes.com/pd_301339-47120-SGY-AIR87_0__?productId=3360952

This thread has some pics of the results, everything black is transtint, topcoat'ed with clear lacquer.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/padauk-stereo-cabinet-7914/

David


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## billrlogan (Feb 15, 2014)

Looks great to me


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

djonesax said:


> Wow, lots of great info here. I wanted to plug transtint as well since I used it on Birch shelves in a stereo cabinet and it turned out great. I used this $40 gun to spray it from Lowes and was super easy.
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_301339-47120-SGY-AIR87_0__?productId=3360952
> 
> This thread has some pics of the results, everything black is transtint, topcoat'ed with clear lacquer.
> ...


Just bought the gun. Said $19.98 when i clicked it.
Another reason i am dyeing instead of using the gel stain i bought is more than likely i will have to spray after assembly. Reason being is that i am going to have to run wiring and dampening material, glue then sand. So i will hang them and spray them.

Any suggestions on glue??

When i get back, i will more or less be in the experimental stage and one thing i have seen is people putting a very light coat of black/ebony as a base coat.My question is will this do anything for me using red mahogany on top of it to highlight any detail?


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## PGrefinishingservice (Nov 6, 2014)

I will start having DIY project in my website! It will be easy and self explinatory.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

RandyReed said:


> Yes, by build I mean 2-3 coats.
> 
> With a gel stain, you will loose some grain. For clarity, dye stain is without a doubt the way to go.



Ok, back off of hitch.

I have the spray gun with a 1.8 needle,transtint dye mahogany red. 
I want to try a practice piece from start to finish what else will i need. And please don't skimp on details like what i should do between dye coats finish coats or anything else. I'm sure i will ask in detail even though it is probably obvious, I just want to get it right the first time.

I really like the color if that gel stain i bought as well, but that will be for another project later.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I also came across this...

http://www.finewoodworking.com/toolguide/articles/selecting-a-finish.aspx

Very good read. So is lacquer compatable with dye stains?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If it were me I would mix the transtint with alcohol a slightly thin and spray a wet uniform coat. Then if the color is too light spray another coat on. The dye looks like nothing on raw wood so be sure to put some clear on it to see if you have the color right.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> Ok, back off of hitch.
> 
> I have the spray gun with a 1.8 needle,transtint dye mahogany red.
> I want to try a practice piece from start to finish what else will i need. And please don't skimp on details like what i should do between dye coats finish coats or anything else. I'm sure i will ask in detail even though it is probably obvious, I just want to get it right the first time.
> ...


First off, the 1.8 needle may be too big for what your gonna be using. Its more for thicker material like water based paints, etc. So first you will need to turn in the fluid knob clockwise all the way in until you feel it get snug....do not over tighten.....then back it out counter clock wise 2 turns and start there for spraying the dye stain. Try spraying it on a piece of card board or some scrap wood to see if you can get an even coat going. If its too heavy, turn the knob in, if its not enough, turn it out 1 turn. You will also need to adjust the air on the gun to make sure its breaking up the dye. Thats gonna depend on what type of gun you have. Guessing, I would start at 40 pounds of air and adjust acordingly.

After you have your technique down, spray an even coat of dye stain on your sample wood. Let it dry. Then spray your lacquer topcoat. let it get "tacky to touch", then apply another coat. Let it dry, then scuff sand with 320 grit paper. Blow of sanding dust, then apply another coat, scuff sand with 240 grit, blow of dust, then apply final topcoat and see how you like it.

If you can use a high build sealer, you could apply your dye stain, let dry. Apply high build sealer over the dye and let dry, then scuff sand with 320 grit. Apply sealer, let dry, scuff sand with 240 grit. Then apply lacquer and view.

Im not sure if that red mahogany will be a close match to you are looking for, but we will see after you try your sample. You may have to obtain more transtint dyes in different colors to get you there. If your not happy with the final samples, I may can suggest some dye formulas to get you close to what you want.......but lets see how this turns out.

Most trans tint dye formulas I have use water instead of solvents. I also have a trans tint formula color close to the drum you pictured. If your piece was made with tiger stripped maple, it would look almost like it.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I will try both.

Having said that what do you recomend as far as lacquer and also for the high build when i try that?

Thanks!!!!!


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I think i might have answered my own question and want to run it by you. Mainly the type but not the brand...

I'm thinking of a good high quality Pre-Cat spray on type for the lacquer...Thoughts??

Still investigating the high build approach.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I will try both.
> 
> Having said that what do you recomend as far as lacquer and also for the high build when i try that?
> 
> Thanks!!!!!


As far as lacquer, I would apply something in the satin range. Deft can be found at Lowes and is pretty good stuff. I think their brushing lacquer can also be spray applied. 

For a high build sealer, I would again look into "Deft" at Lowes. 

You can go to a Sherwin Williams commercial store and ask about their T67F3 sealer, if you have one of those stores near you. Thats what I use religiously. Then ask about a T75FH61 and use that as the topcoat finish. That will give you around a 20 sheen.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I think i might have answered my own question and want to run it by you. Mainly the type but not the brand...
> 
> I'm thinking of a good high quality Pre-Cat spray on type for the lacquer...Thoughts??
> 
> Still investigating the high build approach.


Pre cat lacquer is a great choice, and thats what I listed above in Sherwin Williams. Im just not sure what they sell at the box stores in that type of coating. Maybe someone else can chime in......


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

RandyReed said:


> First off, the 1.8 needle may be too big for what your gonna be using. Its more for thicker material like water based paints, etc. So first you will need to turn in the fluid knob clockwise all the way in until you feel it get snug....do not over tighten.....then back it out counter clock wise 2 turns and start there for spraying the dye stain. Try spraying it on a piece of card board or some scrap wood to see if you can get an even coat going. If its too heavy, turn the knob in, if its not enough, turn it out 1 turn. You will also need to adjust the air on the gun to make sure its breaking up the dye. Thats gonna depend on what type of gun you have. Guessing, I would start at 40 pounds of air and adjust acordingly.
> 
> After you have your technique down, spray an even coat of dye stain on your sample wood. Let it dry. Then spray your lacquer topcoat. let it get "tacky to touch", then apply another coat. Let it dry, then scuff sand with 320 grit paper. Blow of sanding dust, then apply another coat, scuff sand with 240 grit, blow of dust, then apply final topcoat and see how you like it.
> 
> ...


Ok after l much too long hiatus and being out of the country, i think I'm ready....to get ready.

Just to recap, i plan on using a dye which i have, I have a spray gun with a 1.8 needle so i will have to play with the adjustments.

My plan is to spray the transtint and in the process bring out the highlights of the wood itself if possible. There is no Sherwin Williams near by, so Lowes it is then.. To me it looks like 2 different approaches here or am i wrong. 

The first looks like you spray your dye till desired color then start your topcoat lacquering. The second is using the high build between those two??

Which ever will create good or better depth is what I'm looking for.

Been several months and at the time i though i had an idea of a plan and the steps involved but I'm stuck at just after applying my dye coat. 

So what else will i need?

And again, Thanks.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Finally got around to doing a test spray. It was a total of 4 coats in all. Along with getting the nozzle adjusted. By the second coat i did not have to wipe it. I'm pretty happy with the results as far as how even i was able to get it. I was kind of hoping for a little more red. The outside pics are about how i want it to look inside....more pics coming. You can see about how much trans tint i used.That is how much i used to fill the reservoir. Should i use more next time???

In order to get more red out of it should i add another color? this was trans tint mahogany. 

Also, if this was the final product and i was happy with it is there anything i would need to do before i was to start lacquering??


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Here is the rest....

You can see how different it looks indoors....


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Bump?????


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I also found deft at lowes but it says not for spraying, so i did not get it.
But if it will actually, how much should i get?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I also found deft at lowes but it says not for spraying, so i did not get it.
> But if it will actually, how much should i get?



That's just a note from the VOC Nazis. They just don't want you to thin it and destroy the world. How did we ever survive without them. 

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> I also found deft at lowes but it says not for spraying, so i did not get it.
> But if it will actually, how much should i get?


The Deft that says not for spraying just has a very slow drying solvent. It can be sprayed but you need to be more careful not to get runs in the finish. 

This is a pretty long thread now. Are you still trying to finish those speaker cabinets? If so you might as well get a gallon. Once you buy more than two quarts it's cheaper to buy a gallon.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> The Deft that says not for spraying just has a very slow drying solvent. It can be sprayed but you need to be more careful not to get runs in the finish.
> 
> This is a pretty long thread now. Are you still trying to finish those speaker cabinets? If so you might as well get a gallon. Once you buy more than two quarts it's cheaper to buy a gallon.



Still working on them. I wanted to finish the crossovers first.

I work in and out of town/country a lot so its small steps right now. I finally got around to putting the dampening material and glue up of 1 of 4 cabinets.Then, I head out today for a few weeks. When i get back, i will finish gluing up and internal wiring and binding posts. I think i have the spraying dye down ok but need to practice with spraying the lacquer. I might just buy a seperate gun for that.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> Still working on them. I wanted to finish the crossovers first.
> 
> I work in and out of town/country a lot so its small steps right now. I finally got around to putting the dampening material and glue up of 1 of 4 cabinets.Then, I head out today for a few weeks. When i get back, i will finish gluing up and internal wiring and binding posts. I think i have the spraying dye down ok but need to practice with spraying the lacquer. I might just buy a seperate gun for that.


I use separate guns for clear coatings. When using other products in a gun you can never be sure you get everything cleaned out well enough so I have two guns which only get clear finishes put in them.

The Deft would be easier to work if you used a lacquer sanding sealer first. Any finish fuzzes up the finish a little and the sanding sealer would be easier to sand. Think of it as a clear primer. Once you get everything smooth then use the Deft.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

My thoughts exactly. Spraying will be the last thing i do
The fronts are a seperate panel, since i might have to add or take away damening material. They will not be glued untill i finally tune them. Then i will start. But yes its slllloooow going because of work. Half of me just wants to go ahead and glue up because from other reports they sonund excellent as is.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I should be done gluing up everything in a couple of days and finally be spraying by next week, I have to wait on my binding posts.Should 2 Qrts of deft lacquer be enough?

Been working on the crossovers. I put them in a shadow box and they will actually be wall mounted for display. 10 binding posts per box. It will be Bi-amped in with 3 channels coming out.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I went ahead and glued up the fronts so when my binding posts arrive, i will be ready.

Here is my plan so correct or feel free to make recommendations, especially on the high build details. Tried looking for it online, not exactly sure what I'm looking for.

This is what i will be looking at for guidance, trying to put it in one place.... 

Again anything you can add, please do with a reference. I can follow directions fine. I just need them to go by.

Here we go.....:yes:


1.Raise the grain and orbital sand with 180/250?

2.Apply dye stain to desired color(sand between....grit??)

3 Apply 1 coat of lacquer, thinly since it will be the brush type from deft until tacky and apply second (recommended coats?) 

4. Drying/cure time??

5. Buff and machine polish (recommendations in material?)


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Bump.....

Finished sanding them and preping them for dying. I only have 1 gun so i am wondering if it would be better to mix the dye with the lacquer since i only have a gun with a 1.8 needle. Would it be easier this way or should i just shoot the dye, the the lacquer, and would it benifit from me adding a little dye to the lacquer???

thanks.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Sandpaper shreds any surface you use it on. Instead, use very coarse steel wool (the fine is useless.) Coarse steel wool strands are not round, they are flat and sharp. They glide over a finished surface and actually cut off an prickly bits of wood fuzz that stick up.

When I want a water-wet glossy finish on a wood carving, I would not dream of using any sandpaper at all.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Got one set dyed and drying as i write this. Got to let them dry so i can do the bottoms, there are 2 lower and 2 upper. I scuff sanded between, don't have any steel wool unless you for the lacquer. Was worried about blochiness but as it dried it looked much better.

So far I'm happy, especially since i have never done something like this before.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

I also realized that i will have to go very light with the lacquer since I'm not shooting a flat horizontal surface.

There are some imperfections. I have some glue marks thati just could not get out of the wood unless i took some of the wood with it. But now i know what NOT to do, it's not bad though.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

So is there anything i should do before starting the lacquer process? Robson, do you mean using the steel wool before lacquering.
Again please excuse my ignorance but i have never done this. So far though i am happy. 
The color as it is now is what i was shooting for. I guess i will see how it looks when lacquered. My end result is to have some depth to it along with a good shine. The pictures do not show it but the grain really stands out!!!


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Bump....Still here:surprise2:

Finally after all of this time i am ready to shoot the lacquer.

I have a list of materials: 

Deft Gloss brushing lacquer 2qrts.

Respirator type…3m chem for lacquer

Reducer….. ratio? Brand specific????
Micron paper 5micron
Or micromesh.
800 grit final 600 for scuffing
Meguires #7,#9


May main question is what exactly should i use, just regular thinner or something else. And by educated guess what should be the ratio??


Weather around here in Houston seems to be best now for shooting..


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## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

I have shot lots of deft brushing lacquer. I always thin with lacquer thinner. On the first coat, I may thin up to 50:50. For subsequent coats, maybe thin 30%. Depending in how smooth it goes on, I may sand before the last coat. 

You can also thin the last coat a little more to help it flow a bit better.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterjer said:


> I have shot lots of deft brushing lacquer. I always thin with lacquer thinner. On the first coat, I may thin up to 50:50. For subsequent coats, maybe thin 30%. Depending in how smooth it goes on, I may sand before the last coat.
> 
> You can also thin the last coat a little more to help it flow a bit better.


Exactly what i needed to know.

Now its up to me to get the spray gun setup correct. Since this my first attempt at spraying lacquer I don't expect perfection.

Might have to wait a day or 2 now, it decided to start raining.....


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## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

Lacquer is a great finish to spray. There is no sanding required between coats since subsequent coats will melt into previous coats. 

It will also rub out very nice. Depending on the project, I may wet sand it up to 400 and then apply a wax. It feel so nice.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterjer said:


> Lacquer is a great finish to spray. There is no sanding required between coats since subsequent coats will melt into previous coats.
> 
> It will also rub out very nice. Depending on the project, I may wet sand it up to 400 and then apply a wax. It feel so nice.


Any particular type of lacquer thinner??

Weather here will be nice in a few days and want to go grab some today along with the sand paper and respirator.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Ok so i took it upon myself along with what i gathered here and here is the result of 1 set of speakers. The other set is waiting. I used no sealer so i shot a base and let it totaly dry, scuffed it and started building. I have 7 coats on it now. Does it look like there us enough to start wetsanding after the cure time. To me it looks like they do. 

The color.....well it turned out even better than i had hoped, the camera does it no justice at all. A very deep, rich red. I made some small mistakes along the way but thats how you learn. So far i am very happy. I see a little orange peel but i think i can get ut out unless anybody has a suggestion.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Seven coats of what finish? You have enough to start sanding for sure. You have another issue with orange peal though. The finish you are spraying it too thick. You can see the texture of the finish. It should flow out before it sets up and being too thick can't do it. You might try wet sanding using a hard rubber sanding block to wear down the orange peal. Then with another couple coats thinned properly it should level out.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

7 coats of Deft lacquer.


I guess i jumped the gun, it did level out quite a bit. That was taken about 2 minutes after i shot it. An hour later it looks a lot better, i slso hit it with straight lacquer, maybe that helped. It has maybe 2 or 3 fish eyes but i heard krazy glue can remedy that???

Now should i wait a week to cure before sanding/polishing? Or is there anything i should do in the meantime?

Thanks!!


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Here is how they look now..

I was going to sand them but it look better, did nothing to them.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With lacquer unless you are finishing a high gloss table top when you spray the last coat on you are done. Just let it dry. Sanding and polishing will only make it worse. 

The only time I sand and polish lacquer is when I'm finishing a walnut or mahogany table top where the finish has an appearance of having a sheet of glass on it. Then after the last coat I will wet sand it with 1500 grit paper and buff it with a 7" autopolisher that has a lambswool bonnet. It's done with rubbing compound just like you would do a clearcoat on a car.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> With lacquer unless you are finishing a high gloss table top when you spray the last coat on you are done. Just let it dry. Sanding and polishing will only make it worse.
> 
> The only time I sand and polish lacquer is when I'm finishing a walnut or mahogany table top where the finish has an appearance of having a sheet of glass on it. Then after the last coat I will wet sand it with 1500 grit paper and buff it with a 7" autopolisher that has a lambswool bonnet. It's done with rubbing compound just like you would do a clearcoat on a car.


The glass finish is what I'm aiming for as well. I have 1000 and 1500 grit, along with some micromesh pads a friend gave me. I do want the glass like finish. I have lambswool with a very mild cutting compound along with some 3M ultra fine machine polish and pads in my auto collection.


Will this get me there? And should i let it cure for a week or so?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> The glass finish is what I'm aiming for as well. I have 1000 and 1500 grit, along with some micromesh pads a friend gave me. I do want the glass like finish. I have lambswool with a very mild cutting compound along with some 3M ultra fine machine polish and pads in my auto collection.
> 
> 
> Will this get me there? And should i let it cure for a week or so?


You can put a glass like finish on it but you should have leveled the wood with a sanding sealer first. From where you are I would sand the finish with 180 grit paper and put another coat on and see what happens. If it starts looking like what you want then you might sand it with a finer paper and give it another coat. If not sand with 180 grit one more time and put another coat on. Basically what you do is keep applying lacquer sanding between coats until you level the finish. What you have to be careful of using lacquer instead of sanding sealer is if you put too many coats on too fast the finish can crack. I would allow each coat to dry 24 hours. What you end up doing is applying a sheet of lacquer about 6 or 8 mils thick which fills all the texture of the wood.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> You can put a glass like finish on it but you should have leveled the wood with a sanding sealer first. From where you are I would sand the finish with 180 grit paper and put another coat on and see what happens. If it starts looking like what you want then you might sand it with a finer paper and give it another coat. If not sand with 180 grit one more time and put another coat on. Basically what you do is keep applying lacquer sanding between coats until you level the finish. What you have to be careful of using lacquer instead of sanding sealer is if you put too many coats on too fast the finish can crack. I would allow each coat to dry 24 hours. What you end up doing is applying a sheet of lacquer about 6 or 8 mils thick which fills all the texture of the wood.


Would a 220 grit with an orbital on low be okay?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes the orbital sander would be alright. I use one with 220 paper when finishing a lot. Just be careful not to sand through the finish.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes the orbital sander would be alright. I use one with 220 paper when finishing a lot. Just be careful not to sand through the finish.


Thanks.

Correct me if I'm wrong but its almost like an automotive sequence now?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GHOSTNOTES said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but its almost like an automotive sequence now?


At a basic level maybe but it's never like working with automotive when finishing wood. Wood expands and contracts a great deal more than steel. This is why I warned about putting too much lacquer on too fast. Also automotive lacquer would have been thinned a lot more than the lacquer you were spraying. If you sanded automotive lacquer with 220 paper you would see every scratch the sandpaper made. Anyway if you stay at it you can level the finish with the lacquer you are using. You will know when you get there. You will spray a coat on and you will be really tempted to leave it like it is.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

Just for the sake of being cautious, im going to go with a higher grit and go easy so i dont burn it either. The peel is so slight you cant actually feel it. They have sat now for several days, so is sanding safe at this point? I scuffed them with micromesh a little and added another layer and can see the improvement.


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## GHOSTNOTES (Jan 7, 2015)

As they look at the moment. Going to go 1000, 1200, 1500 or 2000 then polish. This is the best shot i have on my phone.


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