# Another comment on Harbor Freight tools



## sofalinux (May 28, 2009)

Lately I have read a lot about HF tools and that power tools are not recommended:thumbdown: But now I have to question hand tools also:sad:

I just puchased this combination square set. I don't have a ton of use for one but from time to time I wish I had one. So I figured for $8 it would be a good investment:thumbsup: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92471
The package as well as the ad says "Precision ground cast iron square head, center head and protractor". Turns out that all heads are aluminum:confused1: Still is a nice looking set and will last me since I won't be beating it up. Then I found out that the protractor is 1 degree off :wallbash:
What a disappointment. Should I expect better for that small amount of money? I sure think that it should at least say "aluminum". I don't want to spend a lot but I am so tempted to take it back tomorrow:tank: I kinda don't want to because the next step up in quality appears to be $29:hang: and I will have to go to a differant store to get that one.
How much should I have to spend to get an ACURATE combination square set?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If it were me I







would take  it back. If you don't every time you go to use it







you have to remember the problem of the one degree:furious:.

If you do:boat:decide to get a different one, you should :shuriken:check it very closely :yes:and make sure







that its accurate.









You may have







to pay a little more







but in the







long run, you







might be a lot happier.


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

I think it relates back to the old saying, "you get what you pay for". Though this isn't always true, it keeps me from buying junk. My time is worth money and they aren't giving me free gas...so, how much does an $8 square end up costing you considering the time/gas you spent going to get it, the time you spent figuring out it was junk, the time/gas it takes to take it back and the time/gas it takes to go get a good one?
The quality of your woodworking will only be as good as your weakest piece of equipment.


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

Always buy the best! You'll only cry once. Not so with cheap tools. You'll cry every time one gives you a ed up result.

I try to have tools on hand that make ME the weakest piece of equipment.
Oddly, I've had no problems doing that!:laughing:


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## BHOFM (Oct 14, 2008)

I bought a Stanley at Lowes and it was way off.
Took it back and got a Work Force, house brand
and it was fine.

You need to check these things when you get
them home, then return them if needed.
I don't think where or how much you pay has
a lot to do with it.

If there is a bad one made, it seems I end up
with it.


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## fanback (Mar 9, 2008)

Buy a Starrett....and want no more.


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## sweensdv (Mar 3, 2008)

There are some items at Harbor Freight that work very well and others that work not so well. One point that is almost universally true with Harbor Freight stuff is that very few items if any are of exceptional quality. I think that your expectations from that tool are/were way higher than what should be expected for the amount of money you paid for it. Rob had it right when he said, "You get what you pay for".


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

I would be careful buying Stanley. I contacted them once about a defective tool and they told me that they do not have a warranty on any tool. They said some retailers will warranty Stanley tools but they don't warranty any.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

*Buying a Square*

Do you have an accurate square? Well take it with you when you purchase additional squares.

Check the intended purchase with a known good one. 

OK, you can't do that... Bring a board (8" square is good enough) with a straight edge and a fine pencil. Draw a line square from the edge using the intended purchase. Flip the intended purchase over and see if it lines up with the drawn line.

Take your square and draw a 45° line from the straight edge. Set the intended purchase to 45°. Does it line up with your line?

This may not work at HF but it will work at HD and Lowes. There are MULTIPLE brands of squares. Check one brand against the other. Is your intended purchase off on every other brand? Pick another to purchase. Is your intended purchase accurate on every brand except one. Remember that brand name because it is a brand to avoid.

Speed squares are good references for 45° at the BORG stores. Framing squares are also good references for 90°. HOWEVER, most framing squares are painted by dipping and there may be globs of paint at the 90° point.

BTW - I have a HF protractor square and would NEVER even dream of expecting the numeric scale on the protractor to match reality. It is good for measuring an angle and then duplicating the angle.


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## Section10 (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't buy much from Harbor Freight, but a few years ago I bought a 1 ton arbor press from them and I've been very satisfied with it. Of course it's not a precision tool and it's a pretty simple machine, but it's always done its job without any trouble. I guess you have to ask yourself what your expectations are of a tool before deciding on who you should buy it from.


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

Was at Harbor Freight yesterday taking advantage of the 25% off coupon I had. Bought a set of round over bits for a project I'm working on. The bits are doing what I want them to do; they're rounding over the edges of the Alder boards. I don't expect top-of-the-line stuff at HF but I don't pay top-of-the-line prices there either. I agree with Section10 as far as keeping your expectations in check. I'm kinda glad to have a Harbor Freight nearby.


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## cheese9988 (Jan 4, 2010)

This depends on what you mean by accurate. For a GOOD combination square, I would look into Starrett, Mitutoyo or Brown & Sharpe. But keep in mind a combination square will never be as accurate as a master square.

That being said, never trust anything to be in spec from the manufacture, especially when Chinese. You would not believe the amount of product we find out of spec from the factory, even when it is a reputable company. Which brings up the next question, what are you checking the Harbor Freight square against, how accurate is that square?

This is a reasonable price for a quality Starrett.

http://www.transcat.com/Catalog/productdetail.aspx?itemnum=10H-6-4R
http://www.toolfetch.com/p-681-64942.shtml
http://www.starrett.com/download/286_p309_315s.pdf


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## WoodMark (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree with Fanback. Starrett is pricey, but it is the best. Their rules are the best also


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## jacobsk (Jan 19, 2010)

check Ebay for Starrett 


hint: many people spell starrett wrong so search "starett" or "starret" and you might happen upon an auction which gets little notice due to the error :thumbsup:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

daryl said:


> The package as well as the ad says "Precision ground cast iron square head, center head and protractor". Turns out that all heads are aluminum:confused1: Still is a nice looking set and will last me since I won't be beating it up. Then I found out that the protractor is 1 degree off :wallbash:
> What a disappointment. Should I expect better for that small amount of money? I sure think that it should at least say "aluminum". I don't want to spend a lot but I am so tempted to take it back tomorrow:tank: I kinda d


Well the 1 degree would bother me but I copied the text from your link and it says 

Stainless steel rule with SAE and metric graduations 
Die cast aluminum square head, center head, and protractor 
Scribe and spirit level 
Brass adjustment screws

So the ad was right except the 1 degree out thing.

The you get what you pay for is true most of the time. Snap on and Matco hand tools are supposed to be better then craftsman but I'm not sure there worth the higher amount in most cases. I tried some of the Harbor Freight hand tools and was not impressed. I have a few odd tools that I might use very rarely. For the most part older heavy duty simple designed tools are ok including the power tools, If you want sliding compound saws with laser tracking buy a better brand.


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## sofalinux (May 28, 2009)

O my!! rrbrown, you are correct that the ad says "die cast aluminum". I did not see that. However, the package DID say "cast iron". I also looked at some very similar combo squares at another store and they said "cast iron", and were actually aluminum. In fact I pointed that out to the owner and they said something indicating that it happens and thats just the way those companies work.
Integrity!!! As far as the eye can see:laughing:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

daryl said:


> O my!! rrbrown, you are correct that the ad says "die cast aluminum". I did not see that. However, the package DID say "cast iron". I also looked at some very similar combo squares at another store and they said "cast iron", and were actually aluminum. In fact I pointed that out to the owner and they said something indicating that it happens and thats just the way those companies work.
> Integrity!!! As far as the eye can see:laughing:


Then buy from somewhere else. That's just the way it is.:laughing:


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## WoodMark (Dec 18, 2009)

_OK, you can't do that... Bring a board (8" square is good enough) with a straight edge and a fine pencil. Draw a line square from the edge using the intended purchase. Flip the intended purchase over and see if it lines up with the drawn line._

As rrich mentioned the board should have a straight edge free of any concave or convex camber. If it does have a cambered edge, you may still possibly be able to check the square by flipping it as mentioned but be sure the squares head is against the same area of the edge both times and draw two lines off the same edge of the square. Carefully measure between the two lines at both ends of the lines. If the measurement is the same the square is accurate. In *theory* this should work.


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## cheese9988 (Jan 4, 2010)

WoodMark said:


> _OK, you can't do that... Bring a board (8" square is good enough) with a straight edge and a fine pencil. Draw a line square from the edge using the intended purchase. Flip the intended purchase over and see if it lines up with the drawn line._
> 
> As rrich mentioned the board should have a straight edge free of any concave or convex camber. If it does have a cambered edge, you may still possibly be able to check the square by flipping it as mentioned but be sure the squares head is against the same area of the edge both times and draw two lines off the same edge of the square. Carefully measure between the two lines at both ends of the lines. If the measurement is the same the square is accurate. In *theory* this should work.


A strait edge, level or a square is allowed to be concave, but not convex on the edges. If the strait edge were convex, it would rock on the part you were checking. The convexity spec may only be < - 0.0001 inch or so over the length of a strait edge, it varies depending on the make and model.

If you are worried about it, buy a Starrett combination square. Keep in mind there is a tiny amount of play with the locking screw. If you need something more accurate, buy a regular fixed square. You get what you pay for when it comes to measuring equipment.


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## WoodMark (Dec 18, 2009)

Im sorry, I was referring to the wood when I spoke of chamber, not the square. The drawing, although exaggerated, shows what I was refering to


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## Jackfre (Dec 23, 2009)

*I think any time I spend*

$8 on anything I almost expect it to be "not what I'm hoping for". On a primary lay-out tool, I guess you have to compare the cost of the tool to the cost of the screwed up material and the frustration and uncertainty of using it. Starrett's are costly, but damn, they are good!


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## jacobsk (Jan 19, 2010)

I would recommend any of the following auctions on ebay, it seems like several have sold in the past few weeks for around the $40 dollar mark (without shipping)

Brown and Sharpe (just like mine):
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BROWN-S...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414c825506

Starrett:
http://cgi.ebay.com/starrett-combin...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b9799e55

a nice Starrett square listed at $40 buy it now with the word "Starett" instead of the proper spelling... probably why its still available, it wont come up in a normal search:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Starett-12-Squa...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dbdda06c


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2009)

jacobsk said:


> check Ebay for Starrett
> 
> 
> hint: many people spell starrett wrong so search "starett" or "starret" and you might happen upon an auction which gets little notice due to the error :thumbsup:


Clever catch --- good thinking !


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## MuseumWood (Mar 6, 2010)

Either deal with someone you can trust or be prepared to verify. With layout tools you need to god for the best you can possibly afford. Layout errors multiply, they NEVER cancel out. HF has some useful stuff but I would never buy anything that requires precision from them. Buy Starrett, but understand that adjustable has built-in error. Steel engineer's squares are best although a beautiful precise steel, brass and wood square rewards the eyes, too.

OOH Rah! Semper Fi RRBrown.


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## cheese9988 (Jan 4, 2010)

If you really want to make sure the square is good, send it in to a *reputable* calibration shop. They will be accredited, ISO 17025 at the minimum.

But at that point, it would be silly to buy a HF square. You would not believe the amount of measuring equipment that fails from the factory, and I am not talking just Chinese either.

One other thing to look at when it comes to used hand tools. Look for wear marks. Is the tool rusted? The rust will increase the diameter of the measuring surface, removal of rust will make the measuring surface smaller than what it was originally. Look for dings and burrs. A small burr will can be easy to remove with a stone, but a large one can render the tool useless.

The tool could be on Ebay for a reason, it could be a machine shop went out of business, or someone doesn't need it anymore. Or it could be the tool was found out of tolerance and they are selling it for that reason. You could ask the seller when the last time the tool was calibrated. "Looks good" or "in working condition" mean absolutely squat when it comes to a measuring tool.


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

*Too funny*



cabinetman said:


> If it were me I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Happy hour?:laughing:

Cheers!


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

I started out with a Starrett Combination square, it was WAY off. I ended up returning it and buying a Johnson from Home Depot. It's fine. I have looked at the ones from Harbor Freight and did not like how flimsy they seemed. 

Retail price has little to do with the build quality of an item, but instead has everything to do with what the market will support. Flatly put, factory A can build EXACTLY the same item for Big Name Bling Tools, and for Sampan Import Company. Where the only difference is the name stamped, or stickered on to the thing. Since marketing budgets get spent to buy customer loyalty, and Big Name Bling Tools is the known, established brand, even though they are EXACTLY the same tools that Sampan Import Company sells, Big Name Bling Tools sells their stuff for 3-4x the price, and you the consumer are more than willing to pay the difference... 

Get out to the stores, and put your hands on the actual items you want to buy, do some comparison hands on if you can. If you are looking for something that is square, compare it to known squares etc... 

You see it stated here, and in many other online forums that you get what you pay for. I would like to remind you of the wisdom of the late Thomas Tusser...

"A fool and his money are soon parted".

If you want to buy the execs at whatever your favorite tool company is their new Leer Jet, be my guest, just understand that in many cases, you are paying for nothing more than the name and marketing hype.


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## cheese9988 (Jan 4, 2010)

dbhost said:


> I started out with a Starrett Combination square, it was WAY off. I ended up returning it and buying a Johnson from Home Depot. It's fine. I have looked at the ones from Harbor Freight and did not like how flimsy they seemed.
> 
> Retail price has little to do with the build quality of an item, but instead has everything to do with what the market will support. Flatly put, factory A can build EXACTLY the same item for Big Name Bling Tools, and for Sampan Import Company. Where the only difference is the name stamped, or stickered on to the thing. Since marketing budgets get spent to buy customer loyalty, and Big Name Bling Tools is the known, established brand, even though they are EXACTLY the same tools that Sampan Import Company sells, Big Name Bling Tools sells their stuff for 3-4x the price, and you the consumer are more than willing to pay the difference...
> 
> ...


I would be interested in knowing how you knew that Starrett square was "way off?" Do you have a surface plate, a master square and gage blocks? Each of which is calibrated and when their accuracy RSS'ed together is more accurate than the square you are checking? At the very least you need a high accuracy cylindrical square (Brown & Shape makes these) and a surface plate.

I really hope you are simply not holding one square up to another, you cannot even put a number to a check like that. You need another master square, surface plate and gage blocks, which if all of the above have been calibrated, needs to be more accurate than the one you are checking. If the working square and the method of calibration are of the same accuracy, and you could actually put a number too how far off the working square is, the chance of having a false in/out of tolerance is 50 %.

There are good reasons why Starrett, Mitutoyo, Mahr/Federal or Brown & Sharpe cost significantly more. The quality of a measuring tool goes far beyond visual appearance. For example, a Harbor Freight micrometer may conform to some federal specification, but what does China conform to? Does China have a national standards bureau like the United States does? If China has a national standards bureau, is the manufacture (not HF obviously) accredited toward this bureau? Did the manufacture calibrate the micrometer, how many points were checked? Are the anvils flat, are they parallel? What material are the anvils made out of, are they carbide? What material is the rest of the mic made out of, will it ding or bend from minor use, or will it take a big drop? Does the micrometer have a ratchet as to apply the same force every time, was it calibrated?

Your average 1 inch micrometer with a 0.0001 inch resolution has an accuracy of +/- 0.0001 inch. The width of a human hair is 0.0040 inch. Do you think you can walk into a store and point out a bad micrometer based on your eyes?

I can guarantee there is no perfect manufacture, heck look at Toyota. But I know at the very least the above manufactures not only can make a good tool, they read accurately too.

There is a reason a HF tool is $20. Buy a reputable tool tool from a reputable dealer.


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