# what's simple way to stain the sapwood in walnut



## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

what's simple way to stain the sapwood in walnut?


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

zlzhao said:


> what's simple way to stain the sapwood in walnut?


if you just stain the sap wood and not the rest of the wood it will show where you stained just the sap wood like a line where you stoped. I just stain the whole board. I would get a sample and try and stain the sap wood maybe a couple time's than stain the whole board and see if that will work for you ? good luck


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

No stain JMO


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2009)

If feasible, you could try boiling the logs to cause the walnut coloring to move into the water and then into the sapwood. That's what some big lumber places do. It does weaken the color in the heartwood.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> what's simple way to stain the sapwood in walnut?


LOL, that's like asking "what is a "simple" way to match up walnut heartwood, to look like sap wood". 

Simple, being the active word here. In the early part of the last century, factories here used what is called cassel brown also known as natural brown #1, walnut crystals, water soluble Van **** brown, etc.. In Europe as well as here, others used breu de' noix, [brew of nuts] walnut have a covering that protects the nut till ripe and then slowly turns brown and falls off. these are then gathered and left to rot to a darker almost black appearance, then boiled in water 4 times the amount of coverings to water, till 2/3 or more has evaporated. This method is more fast to light than the first. 

So there is the "not so simple first step" 

Later, color was used starting in the 50-60's [especially], when what was called "sap stains" made of synthetic dyes was used, with varying results of success, depending on how well manicured the applier was at it's application. brush or rag applications allowed to much penetration, so guns started to be used but still as another has stated before me, hard to control the bleeding into adjacent surfaces, then air brushes were tried and worked better "IF' the amount needed was on a small scale. 

With any of those mentioned, none ever gave a real true match to the heartwood. but blended them in so that after sealing, colored glazing/toning could be done to attain the rest of the color missing.

So this is your "simple" method for what you seek. I have others, but not as simple lol.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If it's necessary to have the coloring more uniform, and the natural wood characteristics aren't desired, I won't give the life cycle of berries and grapes to describe using stains and dyes. There is a "simple" way. It's called detail addition of a coloring agent. It can be done very carefully with an artist brush, using stains/dyes in the coloring close to the heartwood. That takes sampling.

Adjusting the ratio of water to dye (for water base), or alcohol for alcohol base, will produce how concentrated the application will be. With a fairly bland mix, it may take a few applications so as not to over color the areas, or darken the heartwood. In some cases reducing pigmented oil base stains with mineral spirits will also work. 

When applying the finish, toning with a stain or dye in light specific misting can blend in the sapwood to the heartwood. I'm just describing what I've done that has worked for me.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

And i agree = if the "natural" characteristics are not needed to achieve the affect. As far as that goes, under those conditions, a thin toner of the lighter color of the heart could be first used and a color glaze over that to make the grain more pronounced once again, and then a simple glaze applied and sealed in, as well as other methods. this is one of the ways i used in field work in the house, for "quick" results.


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

phinds said:


> If feasible, you could try boiling the logs to cause the walnut coloring to move into the water and then into the sapwood. That's what some big lumber places do. It does weaken the color in the heartwood.


that is what is called steamed ? They used to do that back in the 50's a lot when i had to buy walnut. Some time's when you wanted some sap wood to for a inlay or just blend in some thing in the project It was hard to find. That's back in the day's when i paid 18 cent's a bf for walnut those days are long gone. I bought thousand's of bf of each walnut and cherry. I used to mfd clock's and sell in the Antique trader oh well i don't have any of that money now ?? wonder where it went ? del


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

dominick said:


> no stain jmo


???????????

Gmc


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## phinds (Mar 25, 2009)

del schisler said:


> that is what is called steamed ? They used to do that back in the 50's a lot when i had to buy walnut. Some time's when you wanted some sap wood to for a inlay or just blend in some thing in the project It was hard to find. That's back in the day's when i paid 18 cent's a bf for walnut those days are long gone. I bought thousand's of bf of each walnut and cherry. I used to mfd clock's and sell in the Antique trader oh well i don't have any of that money now ?? wonder where it went ? del


Yeah, "steaming" is another name for it, but I've often wondered why, since it seems to me that if you just put a walnut plank in steam, non of the color would transfer to the sapwood, it would just drip off and weaken the heartwood color with no benefit.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

chemmy said:


> So this is your "simple" method for what you seek. I have others, but not as simple lol.


I am all ears on your *not so simple* solution. thanks!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> I am all ears on your *not so simple* solution. thanks!


how much expierience do you have with working with toxic and dangerous chemicals?:no:


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> ???????????
> 
> Gmc


What's the ?


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

chemmy said:


> how much expierience do you have with working with toxic and dangerous chemicals?:no:


emmm, that will be challenge for me ... but I guess I can handle those regular stuff from those painting shops.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Dominick said:


> What's the ?


It's a question mark.
_The *question mark* (?; also known as an *interrogation point*, *interrogation mark*, *question point*, *query* or *eroteme*),[1] is a punctuation mark that replaces the full stop (period) at the end of an interrogative sentence in English and many other languages. The question mark is not used for indirect questions. The question mark character is also often used in place of missing or unknown data._










 







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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> It's a question mark.
> The question mark (?; also known as an interrogation point, interrogation mark, question point, query or eroteme),[1] is a punctuation mark that replaces the full stop (period) at the end of an interrogative sentence in English and many other languages. The question mark is not used for indirect questions. The question mark character is also often used in place of missing or unknown data.
> 
> 
> ...


Really.....I didn't know that smarty pants :laughing:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Dominick said:


> Really.....I didn't know that smarty pants :laughing:


Glad I could help.


















 







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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Glad I could help.
> 
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> 
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Besides the ? Was for George.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> emmm, that will be challenge for me ... but I guess I can handle those regular stuff from those painting shops.


Good choice and honest answer. good luck with sampling the ideas offered ok? :thumbsup:


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Here is a link to a step by step of a quicky conference table I did to hide some sap. I did this one with a cup gun but if I really wanted to make it disappear I would seal the sap and table after after staining, apply a wash coat of sealer and then glaze the sap areas with a brush and glaze (probably gilsonite in mineral spirits to keep the clarity).

I also like the look and contrast of sap in furniture as well but as you can see with this table it was asymmetrical and didn't add to the overall look.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> Here is a link to a step by step of a quicky conference table I did to hide some sap. I did this one with a cup gun but if I really wanted to make it disappear I would seal the sap and table after after staining, apply a wash coat of sealer and then glaze the sap areas with a brush and glaze (probably gilsonite in mineral spirits to keep the clarity).
> 
> I also like the look and contrast of sap in furniture as well but as you can see with this table it was asymmetrical and didn't add to the overall look.


This is about the same as the factories i worked in also, very good but not perfect, but customer acceptable, and thats what counts most.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> This is about the same as the factories i worked in also, very good but not perfect, but customer acceptable, and thats what counts most.


What kind of a comment is that? So...it's not "perfect" unless you did it or recommended the methods and products? I think Rick did an excellent job and the table looks great.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> What kind of a comment is that? So...it's not "perfect" unless you did it or recommended the methods and products? I think Rick did an excellent job and the table looks great.
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It's an "honest" opinon C'man, and no different than what i was talking of as to "sap stains" used in factories only without the masking off. None of which were ever perfect, but blended in to be unnoticeable and therefore, readily acceptable to the client/purchaser/etc.. """but if I really wanted to make it disappear""" indicates that even he, as i, knows it is not perfect when using this method. Nothing against his "abilities", I have no doubts He's a fine finisher, plus he gives the information of what he would have to perform, to make it "dissapear", if that had been the case in point.

It's never about "my way" C'man, both you, me and others know there is more than one way to skin a cat. So please, enough with this attitude you have with me ok?


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

As a professional finisher sometimes you have to do what the customer wants even if you would like to do it better. I have been fortunate like Chemmy (Hi Sam) to have worked on many very high end jobs and I love that work. 

However this was a case where the client was wanting to save money and the boss didn't even want me to fix it at all. If the sap was symmetrical I would have been OK with it. However I took the time on my own to even it out and the client was pleased. I always try to give a little more than the customer is paying for if possible.

If I was trying to make it disappear completely it would have had to be done in multiple steps. 

The first coloring step should be sprayed because you do not want to accentuate the grain just get the base color correct. Then an overall stain (even on a natural finish an overall light stain is always a good idea, on your walnut I would use a light yellow or orange dye just because that is the color the wood is going to go naturally anyway.) The next steps would depend on your finish schedule sometimes a glaze is in order sometimes a little toning to blend the sap in even better.

Chemmy is correct, it could have been done better but this job wasn't destined for the Taj Mahal and gave the customer more than they asked for. Sometimes that is all you can do, I thought it was a good example of a simple sap coloring technique that our original poster could use. I hope it helped zlzhao.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> As a professional finisher sometimes you have to do what the customer wants even if you would like to do it better. I have been fortunate like Chemmy (Hi Sam) to have worked on many very high end jobs and I love that work.
> 
> However this was a case where the client was wanting to save money and the boss didn't even want me to fix it at all. If the sap was symmetrical I would have been OK with it. However I took the time on my own to even it out and the client was pleased. I always try to give a little more than the customer is paying for if possible.
> 
> ...


 
CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, I'm sure it will help him Rick. And I fully understand your reasons for doing so, under the circumstances, and also applaud you for being concerned enough to do it on your own, that is a sign of not being just a good Artisan/tradesman, but one who knows that everything he does, will reflect on his career either positively or negatively and seperates those who are to become master of this field, from the journeymen.

To me it was not about whether or not it was destined for the TM, or the latest trade show or even to a movie studio or well known personality. It was about how perfectly i could do it for the price, and as you, if it took more time and effort or going back a step or whatever, i would do that. It was always my reputation on the line and no one elses, and that was most important to me through out my whole career.:thumbsup::yes:

PS: glad to see your here my friend, and still working in PA. hope things are better than last year or so also. Do you have more help now or just you?


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> If I was trying to make it disappear completely it would have had to be done in multiple steps.
> 
> The first coloring step should be sprayed because you do not want to accentuate the grain just get the base color correct. Then an overall stain (even on a natural finish an overall light stain is always a good idea, on your walnut I would use a light yellow or orange dye just because that is the color the wood is going to go naturally anyway.) The next steps would depend on your finish schedule sometimes a glaze is in order sometimes a little toning to blend the sap in even better.
> 
> Chemmy is correct, it could have been done better but this job wasn't destined for the Taj Mahal and gave the customer more than they asked for. Sometimes that is all you can do, I thought it was a good example of a simple sap coloring technique that our original poster could use. I hope it helped zlzhao.


Thanks, Rick. Now I have basic idea on how to do it. Actually this my first wood finishing job, therefore, little more detail on each steps, for example, what's the material need to buy and from where, what tools are good, etc, will be great appreciated.


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Nice work Rick.. I was kinda wondering why you just didn't cut out the sapwood and bookmatched the veneer closer while making up the veneer skin? that would have eliminated the sapwood altogether..


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

_"Nice work Rick.. I was kinda wondering why you just didn't cut out the sapwood and bookmatched the veneer closer while making up the veneer skin? that would have eliminated the sapwood altogether.. "

The veneer for that table was left over from another job that had already been trimmed. There just wasn't enough material to do that. The customer liked the figure and took a big discount. We got to use up some inventory and make some money. 
_


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

_"what's the material need to buy and from where, what tools are good, etc"

I would use a dye stain to get the first color. You can get that from Mohawk. There Ultra Penetrating dye stain works well. You could also use WD Lockwood water based dye stain.
Make sure and do samples before trying to tackle your project! I hope you have access to a spray gun. A gravity feed cup with the 3m PPS system would be ideal.
_


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Just for your information Rick, you can just use water soluble dyes mixed with butyl cellosolve and make your own "solar lux" types if you would like at a reduced cost. As you probably also already know, you just need blue red and yellow [or green and red] to match up 95% of wood tones used. Just a thought ok?:yes:

Sincerely,

Chemmy / sam


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Rick Mosher said:


> _"Nice work Rick.. I was kinda wondering why you just didn't cut out the sapwood and bookmatched the veneer closer while making up the veneer skin? that would have eliminated the sapwood altogether.. "
> 
> The veneer for that table was left over from another job that had already been trimmed. There just wasn't enough material to do that. The customer liked the figure and took a big discount. We got to use up some inventory and make some money.
> _


well you did a really good job..thanks for posting the pictures..I love seeing good veneer jobs.. hats off to you..


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Chemmy!!! I'm sure I speak for most of us (I think..LOL) when I say no one has any clue what butyl cellosolve or solar lux is.. laymans terms my friend!! laymans terms..heh heh heh


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Chemmy!!! I'm sure I speak for most of us (I think..LOL) when I say no one has any clue what butyl cellosolve or solar lux is.. laymans terms my friend!! laymans terms..heh heh heh


Please forgive my unintentional comment made for Rick, without even thinking of others having interest. 

Sorry, "solar lux" is just a brand name nomenclature for a Behlen's brothers dye product. It was found that the use of some of the > glycol ethers< ["butyl cellosolve", another Union Carbide nomenclature, used as a slow evaporative solvent/diluent] that is miscable with water, could be used to create a dye product that not only could be used as a straight application dye, but also could be used in small amounts to also make dye toners/shaders. this of course opened up a new way to use what was, a stand alone aqeous product in the industry, for almost a century, as concerning the misnomered "analine" dyes.

Analine type dyes have not been used for several decades, but the name stuck not unlike "kleenex" because of the long held use before newer safer/less toxic, types of dyes were introduced. Analine was found to be very carcinogenic!!

John Abel, the head chemist At BBros. who was a good friend of mine, came up with some simple but very affective and easy to use products over the decades he was there. This being one of many. 

Though when they first came out, i did use them for awhile, for me, there color strength, as packaged, the amount of aqeous content still contained, and the amount that could be added to what was meant to be thier lacquer lines [qualavite gloss and qualalac sanding sealers as well as others.], was just not to my personal likeing or needs. But they have sold well for many years now with others like Rick. Keep in mind though, i was already using industrial metallic liquid dye "concentrates" by then.

So in seeing the advantages of using a "true" monosoluble [only soluble in one solvent] dye that could be used in such away as his, within a few months i came up with my own version that, when needed, is much more versatile in all areas and "was" less than half the cost. But here again, i rarely use those either lol. 

Is this clear enough for you randy, or would you prefer it at 5th grade level? Are you smarter than a fifth grader - lol :laughing::yes::thumbsup:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

racfurniture said:


> Chemmy!!! I'm sure I speak for most of us (I think..LOL) when I say no one has any clue what butyl cellosolve or solar lux is.. laymans terms my friend!! laymans terms..heh heh heh





chemmy said:


> Please forgive my unintentional comment made for Rick, without even thinking of others having interest.


If it was unintentional, why make it? There may be a few that have that extensive interest. But constructively speaking, your answers are an extraneous effort to impress, and it's like identifying an amoeba in the ocean.



chemmy said:


> Is this clear enough for you randy, or would you prefer it at 5th grade level? Are you smarter than a fifth grader - lol :laughing::yes::thumbsup:


No one appreciates being talked down to. In the end, does it matter who we are smarter than?










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> If it was unintentional, why make it? There may be a few that have that extensive interest. But constructively speaking, your answers are an extraneous effort to impress, and it's like identifying an amoeba in the ocean.
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sorry c'man me and randy are friends i know he will take it as it was meant a joke, kidding, humour, just like he kids me, the refference to are you as smart as a 5th graders was in reference to a TV show of that name.. It was not intended for anyone else but him ok? sorry if it offended you or others, that was unintentional. but i am interested why lately you have been acting like the forum director as to what and how,when, i post anything here? From what i can see here, i can find no evidence that this is your site, am i wrong? Did they wrongly title it? should it have been "cabinetmans forum? if so i apologize, if not, then please quite acting as if your the moral conscience for all the other participants please. I'm sure if i get out of bounds on a post, those in charge will quickly let me know. 

I also don't understand why, if you dislike my post so much, you would bother even reading them? Are you purposely looking for things to negatively comment on? Are you really that insecure with your own abilities that you would take it out on others to shift the focus off of you? tell me please? What are your true reasons?


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

heh heh heh..Chemmy.. I would surely fail at the 5th grader show although I have watched it and won the main prize once or twice while in the comfort of my home and to my families amazement..I would never attempt a go at it..

C'Man.. Chemmy and I are good friends.. he was teasing me as I have teased him a few times myself..he's a great person who contributes much to me with what he knows.. it's all good..


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> heh heh heh..Chemmy.. I would surely fail at the 5th grader show although I have watched it and won the main prize once or twice while in the comfort of my home and to my families amazement..I would never attempt a go at it..
> 
> C'Man.. Chemmy and I are good friends.. he was teasing me as I have teased him a few times myself..he's a great person who contributes much to me with what he knows.. it's all good..


Thanks Randy, appreciated much.:yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> I also don't understand why, if you dislike my post so much, you would bother even reading them? Are you purposely looking for things to negatively comment on?


I apologize to zlzhao for the diversion this thread has taken. Actually I don't dislike your threads...they are very entertaining. Sometimes an answer's point is lost to the ancillary information that is thought to be needed. My comments were intended as constructive, not negative.



chemmy said:


> Are you really that insecure with your own abilities that you would take it out on others to shift the focus off of you? tell me please? What are your true reasons?


If you feel personal attacks and innuendo are necessary, PM's are a better format.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I apologize to zlzhao for the diversion this thread has taken. Actually I don't dislike your threads...they are very entertaining. Sometimes an answer's point is lost to the ancillary information that is thought to be needed. My comments were intended as constructive, not negative.
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that was a "question" not anything else, I'm looking for the "reasoning" behind your replies, that is just what came to mind off the top of my head?

Constructive??? in the sense of "promoting" Improvement or development? Hmmm..... 

I guess that's where we differ. I for one, whether there be ancillary content or not, have always wanted to know as much of that which i could find on a subject. If that meant wading through indirect material to find it, i gave it little thought.

Here, on the other hand, and other sites also, I find so much information not thorough or lacking any real and meaningful in site, that my desire is to give all that i can. If someone is to post such as " i have a chest made of walnut, i would like to make a mahogany color instead" i always try to put first things first. I will ask for pictures, then what there expecting to have as a final look [color/sheen/film characteristics/ etc.. are they planning on going over the existing finish or stripping, is this thier first project, what type of equipment do they have to use, ect.. In other words, i want as much upfront info as i can get rather then just shooting out an answer like minwax mahogany stain. And no i'm not talking of you. 

Not that it might not work, but so much more could be given to help in choosing what may be a better choice, better clarity, faster dry, longevity of color, etc.. and understanding of what characteristics each item used to do the project with has to offer. Actually, much like you or at least others may try to find by reading books etc.. So though i may seem long worded, lol, My intent is always to give a concise, meaning condensed version of what they may find by much more through time intensive reading elsewhere. There again, that is amatter of personal prefferance based on decades of originally having to research all i know from scratch less what i was taught. 

So i guess we will just have to agree to disagree on these matters. For i find little to nothing i would change of my style, to fit the views a few who hold other ways more valuble to themselves. were just talking personal prefferences that everyone is entitled to right?

Chemmy


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> If it was unintentional, why make it? There may be a few that have that extensive interest. But constructively speaking, your answers are an extraneous effort to impress, and it's like identifying an amoeba in the ocean.
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As to "unintentional" my meaning was that though it was "intended" for Rick, my thoughts were not on others who may want to know more on this. Everything else is a matter of not knowing me better C'man and nothing more.


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