# make or buy kitchen cabinets?



## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

I have a small kitchen that has 2 lower cabinets, 2 upper (larger) cabinets, a narrow pantry and then 3 smaller upper cabinets over the stove and fridge. They are dated to say the least, and I would love to replace them. The question is to make or buy… At the minimum I would be replacing the current ones, and at a maximum I would rearrange the kitchen and effective need double the amount of cabinets.

Since this is my starter house, and I don’t plan on being here for longer than 5 years, I don’t need to do anything fancy with the cabinets… if it was my long term house I might try to do something crazy like Mahogany and Wenge or something like that. I would opt for something cheap like red oak… 

So factoring in time and the scale of the project, would you make or buy kitchen cabinets?


Thanks!


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

You can probably make cabinets that can make better use of the space. Whether not that is worth your time only you can decide.

Improving the usefulness of a small kitchen would probably increase its resale appeal in the future.

George


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would make them. If you have the tools, space and skills, you'll likely save some money and get what you want. It could be worth it just for the experience. We're here to help...so to speak.












 







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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

yea, I was thinking: if nothing else it would be good practice, and I won't care as much if I mess up!

How much do materials cost in general to make a cabinet? 3/4" ply for the cabinet and some red oak for the frames and drawer construction... 

I might need to purchase a router bit set and a pocket hole jig, but I'm always looking for reasons to buy new tools!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Dvoigt said:


> I might need to purchase a router bit set and a pocket hole jig, but I'm always looking for reasons to buy new tools!


I would do my best to talk you out of using pocket screws. IMO, you could conceivably have more problems, weaker joints, and waste more time with the problems you may incur.

When you decide exactly what material you want, and have a general plan for the cabinets, there will be many suggestions as to fabrication techniques that will produce predictable joints. With traditional joinery, whatever bits and tools you will need will be appropriate for a wide variety of woodworking procedures.












 







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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

I would definitely make them, but you ask that on a forum of woodworkers I doubt you get someone to say buy them. :laughing:


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

Go for it! Make them!
Pocket screws do only one thing, but they do it well. That is, they hold pieces together until the glue dries. I use them. I hide them. No one has complained. I doubt the buyers, five years from now, will either. However, as C-man indicates, there are other, more elegant methods. 
For a small kitchen, red oak frame and panel doors would be fine. Jazz it up with a muted figure granite top or a composite like Corian. For a small area, the expense wouldn't exorbitant.


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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> I would do my best to talk you out of using pocket screws. IMO, you could conceivably have more problems, weaker joints, and waste more time with the problems you may incur.
> 
> When you decide exactly what material you want, and have a general plan for the cabinets, there will be many suggestions as to fabrication techniques that will produce predictable joints. With traditional joinery, whatever bits and tools you will need will be appropriate for a wide variety of woodworking procedures.
> 
> ...



Yea, I did sort of cringe when i mentioned pocket screws... I generally make a point of avoiding fasteners and stick with the traditional methods. I have just heard that pocket screws are pretty quick. But I'm open to suggestions.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Pocket screws, glue and a FF and a back will make a cabinet that is more than strong enough for long term use. I usually use dadoes and glue.


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## verdesardog (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm a cabinet maker, if you are only staying in the house for a couple of years go ahead and buy cheap cabinets. You will spend way more money making your own than buying premade.

If you do make your own pocket screws for face frames are the way to go for ease and strength.


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## mveach (Jul 3, 2010)

Cabinetman needs to change his name two I hate pocket holes man. I use many types of joinery each has its uses each has its drawbacks. There is always more than one technique to solve any problem. By the way C man just yanking your chain!


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## billye1982 (Apr 25, 2011)

verdesardog said:


> I'm a cabinet maker, if you are only staying in the house for a couple of years go ahead and buy cheap cabinets. You will spend way more money making your own than buying premade.
> 
> If you do make your own pocket screws for face frames are the way to go for ease and strength.


I agree (although I am not a cabinet maker). Just compare prices at lowes and HD, they have pretty decent unfinished oak cabinets for a pretty decent price.


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

billye1982 said:


> I agree (although I am not a cabinet maker). Just compare prices at lowes and HD, they have pretty decent unfinished oak cabinets for a pretty decent price.


I agree. You will not build a kitchen as cheaply as buying pre-made, but it's not near as much fun or educational as building your own. And, often you can't find a pre-made to fit that 'special place' you want to put a cabinet. 
Plus, when you get them finished, there's the pride thing AND the tools to use on future projects.:thumbsup:


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## thegrgyle (Jan 11, 2011)

*Yeah.... what they said*



Gene Howe said:


> I agree. You will not build a kitchen as cheaply as buying pre-made, but it's not near as much fun or educational as building your own. And, often you can't find a pre-made to fit that 'special place' you want to put a cabinet.
> Plus, when you get them finished, there's the pride thing AND the tools to use on future projects.:thumbsup:


As everyone has said, Building your own will give you a chance to gain some experience, customize your kitchen, and gain that sense of pride after finishing it. 

Buying the cabinets may be cheaper, but you still have to finish them. I think the added cost, if there is some, is the cheap cost of the "education" that you will get by making them. Go for it!

don't forget to take pics of your progress.... We all like pictures.


Fabian


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

I disagree about it being cheaper to buy the premade cabinets over making them. First off If you buy your lumber from a good source it should be cheaper then buying. If not it would be close enough that the quality should make up for any difference.

I built a complete kitchen of cabinets for like 1/6 the price of what they wanted to buy them from a cabinet store. I also got to make a few things different like I wanted. Now they were not HD specials but I looked at those and I still think I can build cheaper or same as buying them.

Maybe it was because I have all the tools, bits etc but I say build if for no other reasons then to get experience and the pride in soing it yourself.


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

If you know what your doing make them but only if your going to increase the amount of usable space. Kitchens and bathrooms sell houses. In California studies show women and most often the decision makers ( who doesn't love a happy wife). And women spend the majority of their time in a kitchen or bathroom.


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## jredburn (Feb 20, 2011)

*cabinets make or buy*

Dvoigt
If you are going to flip the house in five years or less, it would be a waste of time and money to build them. Because you would build them better than most shops would and then leave them behind when you flip the house. You would never get your money's worth out of them. You can buy the stock cabinets out of a big box store cheaper than you can make them. They are junk but they will look OK for long enough to flip the house. Buy them in a box off the floor tho, do not order them from a salesman or out of the catalog as you will pay premium prices.
Regards
Joe


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Corbin3388 said:


> If you know what your doing make them but only if your going to increase the amount of usable space. Kitchens and bathrooms sell houses. In California studies show women and most often the decision makers ( who doesn't love a happy wife). And women spend the majority of their time in a kitchen or bathroom.


That's pretty much the way it is. Kitchens and bathrooms usually represent the only furniture type fixtures that stay with the house when sold. They could be considered an indicator of the overall quality of the house. 












 







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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

jredburn said:


> Dvoigt
> If you are going to flip the house in five years or less, it would be a waste of time and money to build them. Because you would build them better than most shops would and then leave them behind when you flip the house. You would never get your money's worth out of them. You can buy the stock cabinets out of a big box store cheaper than you can make them. They are junk but they will look OK for long enough to flip the house. Buy them in a box off the floor tho, do not order them from a salesman or out of the catalog as you will pay premium prices.
> Regards
> Joe


I do not necessarily agree with this.

Because you are going to sell in five years or less may be a good reason to custom build. As noted by Cabinet man below, kitchens are often a major selling point of a house.

It will really depend upon whether or not the custom cabinets add to or detract from the kitchen quality.

And, if they are good quality you will enjoy them until you well.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

thegrgyle said:


> As everyone has said, Building your own will give you a chance to gain some experience, customize your kitchen, and gain that sense of pride after finishing it.
> Buying the cabinets may be cheaper, *but you still have to finish them.* I think the added cost, if there is some, is the cheap cost of the "education" that you will get by making them. Go for it!
> don't forget to take pics of your progress.... We all like pictures.
> 
> Fabian


Finishing:
The 3rd step in woodworking and for some the least important ...until it's time to do it. Unless you have the proper space and equipment, the finishing process will be an issue. You need a place to spray or brush on the finish and a place to let them lay or hang while drying. It needs to be well ventilated and hopefully not recirculate the fumes back into the house...AC or heating system. You need to determine the finish. Poly? Lacquer? Water base? Just a thought would be to make the cabs and doors and take them to a finisher...? JMO :blink: bill


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

jredburn said:


> Dvoigt
> If you are going to flip the house in five years or less, it would be a waste of time and money to build them. Because you would build them better than most shops would and then leave them behind when you flip the house. You would never get your money's worth out of them. You can buy the stock cabinets out of a big box store cheaper than you can make them. They are junk but they will look OK for long enough to flip the house. Buy them in a box off the floor tho, do not order them from a salesman or out of the catalog as you will pay premium prices.
> Regards
> Joe


While I think it's reasonably true that buying the cheap stuff at the big box stores will be "faster/cheaper/easier" I don't think that's a good reason to do it if you're planning to sell the house in 5 years. I said the same thing about my house and I can pretty much guarantee I'll be in it 7-10 years rather than my original plan. People's lives change. The extra effort and expense will make you a happier person in the home while you have it and add to the value of the home when you go to sell it. Buying "junk" is never a good option, even when you want to flip a house, which is different than living in it for a few years and then selling it.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

Dvoight,

My vote is , build your own.

The kitchen you describe sounds like it could be built for $500 or so in material cost. That's pretty cheap if you don't need to figure your labor into it.

I recently built some cabinets for my daughter's kitchen (half of the kitchen for now anyway) which consisted of a large floor to cieling pantry with can racks, a refer enclosure cabinet with tray dividers, a 7' long base cabinet with a space for an oven and cabinets doors with roll out shelving units inside. I used some nice (but inexpensive) white ash, which when stain looks very similar to oak. They were pretty nice cabinets all solid wood face frames, drawer fronts and frame doors with 3/8" T & G panels, which I resawed from 4/4 ash. I used surface mounted face frame hinges and inexpensive drawer slide.

The total materials cost was around $500. I donated my labor, about 35 hours, I also scrounged around the shop and used up many sracp pieces and odd ball plywood remnants and they are doing the finishing. What they got was some very nicely built cabinets that will probably outlive them. I added some custom touches and details that you just can't buy from the big box stores. 

So, the moral to my story is: If you can afford to donate your labor you can probably build some very nice cabinets for about what it would cost for some of very inferior quality from the BB store.

Best of luck whatever you end up doing, Bret


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## ctwiggs1 (Mar 30, 2011)

frankp said:


> While I think it's reasonably true that buying the cheap stuff at the big box stores will be "faster/cheaper/easier" I don't think that's a good reason to do it if you're planning to sell the house in 5 years. I said the same thing about my house and I can pretty much guarantee I'll be in it 7-10 years rather than my original plan. People's lives change. The extra effort and expense will make you a happier person in the home while you have it and add to the value of the home when you go to sell it. Buying "junk" is never a good option, even when you want to flip a house, which is different than living in it for a few years and then selling it.


 

+1

In this economy, I wouldn't bank on flipping a house in 5 years. I got a steal on my house 4 years ago, and here I am now seeing the value drop more and more.

If you're going to do something, do it right.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Dvoigt said:


> yea, I was thinking: if nothing else it would be good practice, and I won't care as much if I mess up!
> 
> How much do materials cost in general to make a cabinet? 3/4" ply for the cabinet and some red oak for the frames and drawer construction...
> 
> I might need to purchase a router bit set and a pocket hole jig, but I'm always looking for reasons to buy new tools!


The BORG near me has 3/4" cabinet grade plywood (Poplar I believe) for $24.95 / sheet currently...

Money wise, I am pretty sure you would be better off buying cheap cabinets, but they will look just that, cheap.... You would be better off resale wise spending a little bit more in materials, putting in your sweat equity and building some nice raised panel doors / drawer fronts, with full extension slide out shelves etc... to maximize the utilization of what space you have...

As far as the concept of flipping this house in 5 years or less, you are far more optimistic about the economy than I am... Don't waste your money thinking you are going to be increasing a home's value for resale at this point. Put the money in to make it more livable for you while you are there... Don't ignore resale and do something crazy, but don't do improvements with resale in mind at this point, that is an almost guaranteed money hole...


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Make Them........I just finished building 11 kitchen cabinets. It was the first time I ever built cabinets. It took me forever but the experience i got and the lessons i learned were invaluable.....


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## shalisha (May 18, 2011)

*Make Your Own Kitchen Cabinets*

Hi. I was reading your post and I think if this is your starter home, there's no need to buy and install expensive kitchen cabinets. 

A good alternative would be to download affordable high quality blueprints that are complete and will enable you to create your kitchen cabinets for a fraction of the cost and still maintain high quality. 

Shalisha


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

dbhost said:


> The BORG near me has 3/4" cabinet grade plywood (Poplar I believe) for $24.95 / sheet currently...



Go to a a place that specializes in hardwoods and get your lumber. Stay away from the BORG stores there cabinet grade plywood is trash.


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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

Well for cost estimation... how many cabinets can you make from 1 sheet of 8x4 ply? Seems to me it would make about 2.

As for the re-sell house comments.... I am optimistic I will be out of here within 5 years, I've already been here 2 years longer then I thought. I don't expect redoing the kitchen to raise the resale value, just make it more appealing to potential buyers. All the homes that have sold around me in the recent years have been shortsales or foreclosures so the comparables suck. I just need to do what I can to make it appealing.

My kitchen right now sucks... so anything is an improvement.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Designing, building and finishing*

My last post dealt with the finishing process. Now I would ask you about the building process.
How will you accurately break down the plywood sheets? Table saw or circular saw and straight edge?
Does your saw/shop allow for a 24" rip and support both in and out of the saw? 
Do you have to carry the sheets down stairs and will this be a problem? What about a helper?
A router guide/jig to make dados across the 24" width for the bottom and for the upper cabinets would be handy. How's your supply of clamps? 
Do you have a brad nailer? 
How about a rabbeting bit or dado head for your table saw to set the back panel into? 
Will any of the sides be exposed to the room and be visible at the rear so the finished wood runs all the way to the wall? 
Can the toe kick be separate base that the cabinets sit on? What about drawer slides...what brand and type? 
What style of doors, raised panels with molded details, Mission style?
If you need routed details then there will be some hardwood cost involved, maybe the cost of new cutters and a router table? 
And what about finishing? Method, material and space?
The answers to these questions will help you decide what to do as well as what others have said regarding cost...not really that much of a factor in my opinion. The difference between cheap ply and better is probably $100.00, if that.  bill


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## ihackwood (Sep 5, 2009)

i made my own however i cheated like crazy. i built my house out of cash so it only goes so far.


if you have ever seen a mobile homes cabinets, you open one door and you can get to the other cabinet. well it don't get any cheaper.

i used wainscot and pine to trimitout and some leftover high end trim, it is country inspired and i have gotten alot of compliments.


i built the whole front trim and doors and then finished and installed them on the carcasses that were already installed it was around 500 back then.


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## Dvoigt (Dec 6, 2007)

Good questions Bill, got me thinking a bit, let me answer them:

My last post dealt with the finishing process. Now I would ask you about the building process.

How will you accurately break down the plywood sheets? Table saw or circular saw and straight edge? - combination of the 2, I can't rip handle a full 4x8 sheet on the saw, but I'm ok with handling semi large pieces

Does your saw/shop allow for a 24" rip and support both in and out of the saw? - I can swing that

Do you have to carry the sheets down stairs and will this be a problem? What about a helper? - nope and yep

A router guide/jig to make dados across the 24" width for the bottom and for the upper cabinets would be handy. - got it

How's your supply of clamps? - moderate, would probably pick up a few more. But you can always have more

Do you have a brad nailer? - yep

How about a rabbeting bit or dado head for your table saw to set the back panel into? - yep

Will any of the sides be exposed to the room and be visible at the rear so the finished wood runs all the way to the wall? - The lower cases could have 1 side showing, or maybe none depending on the final lay out. I would have a tall pantry that would have exposed sides in the middle area. Back are all against the wall.

Can the toe kick be separate base that the cabinets sit on? - sure it could be, I think that would make case construction easier.

What about drawer slides...what brand and type? - No idea

What style of doors, raised panels with molded details, Mission style?
If you need routed details then there will be some hardwood cost involved, maybe the cost of new cutters and a router table? - I'm toying with ideas, I was thinking either raised panel, or just maybe a little detail on the edges and a flat panel in the middle. I have a router table.

And what about finishing? Method, material and space? - I was thinking maybe just a water based poly. I have all the equipment to spray and could do it in and around the garage.

The answers to these questions will help you decide what to do as well as what others have said regarding cost...not really that much of a factor in my opinion. The difference between cheap ply and better is probably $100.00, if that.  bill


My biggest concern is the amount of time to do them all as well as the general construction method. I know that they are just boxes and drawers, but I always like to know all the details before I tackle a project


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## illcrx (May 15, 2011)

I say build them! Im going to do the same when I get my shop setup. Another alternative is to just redo the Doors and shelves for the time being, maybe build a few new boxes but try to keep the same "boxes". You can even take them all down, refinish them and do some veneering to get a good look where you need. Its kind of the best of both worlds. Just a thought, I'd start over!


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

You can buy cheap cabinets at a big box store, but you get what you pay for. Most of them are junk. If you want something with halfway decent quality you will save considerable money by building them yourself. It all depends on the time you have available, the money you want to spend, the skill levels you have, and your own desire to learn.

As others have mentioned, a quality kitchen can be a big selling point in a house.


Gerry


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Dvoigt said:


> Good questions Bill, got me thinking a bit, let me answer them:
> 
> My last post dealt with the finishing process. Now I would ask you about the building process.
> 
> ...


I think you answered all of Bills questions in a way it favors building your own. All good questions by the way.

The cost I have issue with, maybe it's my location but Oak as much as I don't like it is one of the cheaper hardwoods here. 
That $24 a sheet 3/4" cabinet grade stuff is not Oak. 3/4" Oak runs like $50 at BORG here and the same at Brazo's forrest products. Birch is also the same at both, the difference being the Borg stores generally sell trash wood. I have found brazo's here to have very good prices.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

Assuming you have the time and money to build ANYTHING, and the bones of the ones you have are functional, but the faces are ugly, and whatever you do its only for five years before you sell the house.... 

Then in your place I might save both $ and time by dressing the faces with veneer or maybe buy face frames and doors, but then spend my shop time building something I will take with me when to enjoy longer than five years.


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## blackestate (Feb 28, 2011)

I have been thinking on this also. And I do not see how it is cheaper to buy cabinets. HD sells a base cabinet for $120, with 1/2" walls and back. and a nice looking front. Their cabinet 3/4 ply is less than $30 per sheet. I was under the impression that a good cabinet would need 3/4 all of the way around, How do they get away with the 1/2 stuff? and even if it took 2 sheets to build a cabinet, you would be saving money. 
I am really new to this, so what am I missing. To me time does not count as it is a hobby, not a job. And there is no time line required to be met.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

What you're missing is the whole picture. A cabinet is not made from just plywood. There is plywood, solid wood, fasteners, hardware for the doors and drawers, sandpaper, glue. Then there is the finish, so you need something to apply it, brush, spraygun, the material, the stain, the rags. It all adds up, quickly.


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## ctwiggs1 (Mar 30, 2011)

During my remodel, everyone told me how much money I was going to save by doing it myself. What they didn't tell me is the stuff that Leo just mentioned -- there are a lot of consumable items that have to be purchased for every job. You still save money, but it's not nearly as much and you're more likely to make noticeable mistakes than the pros.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm still going to do as much as possible myself... But that's just because I like an excuse to buy a new tool ;-)

Curtis


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

The line I get often is "I went out to HD or Lowe's and was looking at cabinets and I found something I liked but it (was this that or the other thing wrong) and I was wondering if you could build me the same design but in my size (or whatever). The price I give them is likely to be 3-4 times as much as the box store version. I can't compete with a manufacture who buys 1000's of sheets and hinges and slides, who employ workers at low wages and use CNC machines to make parts. While I'm paying $90 sheet for plywood they are paying $40, I have to charge my shop[ rate and for that they have 4-6 guys on the floor.

Custom costs.

If you don't include your time in the equation you might be able to make them for about the same cost as you can buy them. Once you put a value on your time you might as well just go buy them. 

But you will get the satisfaction of knowing you built your kitchen and it will be made of cabinets that are the right size and not something with a lot of filler pcs.


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## Corbin3388 (Jan 22, 2011)

Here's a pic of new drawer faces and cab doors /same old cabinet just painted. 
Hardwood is bloodwood and Honduran mahogany
Flooring 3/4" Bruce jatoba
Did this a few years back up in Hastings ranch CA


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> The line I get often is "I went out to HD or Lowe's and was looking at cabinets and I found something I liked but it (was this that or the other thing wrong) and I was wondering if you could build me the same design but in my size (or whatever). The price I give them is likely to be 3-4 times as much as the box store version. I can't compete with a manufacture who buys 1000's of sheets and hinges and slides, who employ workers at low wages and use CNC machines to make parts. While I'm paying $90 sheet for plywood they are paying $40, I have to charge my shop[ rate and for that they have 4-6 guys on the floor.
> 
> Custom costs.
> 
> ...


Absolutely the truth. Clients think that a shop can build less than a big store that has all that overhead. What's true, is that it's more than buying the plywood and a gallon (or 2) of finish. Back in the 70's & 80's there were about a half dozen mega shops here making kitchens and baths for multi dwelling condos and apartments. They could spit out 50-60 kitchens a day. These were mostly automated. Hands touched very little of the work.

Around the same time I did a bid for one of the local chain restaurants. I saw a film of a company in California that was almost totally automated. Their sheet stock sat on pallets, that got lifted and fed through a series of automatic panel saws cutting all the parts. It was amazing to watch. I was thinkin' to myself...how nice not to have to lift those sheets.

The table tops had two colors with an inlaid border, done with a series of automated routers. I will say, when the field was fitted, it was a perfect fit...no gaps whatsoever. There's no way a small shop with men doing all the functions can compete with that kind of fabrication.

What doesn't show is the personal touch, that is quite evident with the work you see here that the members are doing.












 







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