# Old Bailey #5 plane find and questions???



## Paul W Gillespie

I hope this is not becoming a problem for me. I seem to have started going to flea markets in search of old chisels and planes. Being new I have an idea of what to look for, but I am still learning. Today I saw these two No 5 Planes. They are missing some parts and I don't know if it is going to be a problem to find them or if they are worth fixing. I paid $10 for the both of them, $5 each. This after talking the guy down form $20. So if it is a bust, at least I am only out 10 bucks. I search his bins for the other parts, but he was packing up and I couldn't find them in the time I had. Maybe next week I will go back and look again.


The one has Bailey on the front, US PAT APR-19-10 in the middle and No5 on the back of it. It is 14" long, a shade under 2.5" wide. It seems in decent shape. A little rust and some paint missing, but not too bad. It has adjustment screws underneath the brass depth adjustment knob in the middle.

The other is just got No5 printed on the front. It is 13.5 inches long and the same width as the other. No adjustment screws under the brass depth adjustment knob.

So any ideas on dating these things? I looked on the Patricks Blood and Gore site, but I am having trouble nailing them down as to style and age. I was also looking on ebay for the missing parts, but don't know what ones are right for these pieces. Are they worth trying to restore, putting any more money into, or should I just look for a better example of vintage planes?

I guess I am looking for a blade, cap iron and lever cap, but what style and vintage?

Thanks for looking.
Paul


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## firemedic

Paul, ya did good. They both appear to be missing only the iron, cap iron and lever cap.

I don't have enough to go on but I believe the plane with No 5 on front is not a Stanley/Bailey.

My suggestion to you would be to rehab the Bailey first and the other as time/funds allow. I suggest you order a hock brand iron and cap iron and check eBay for an inexpensive lever cap. While you wait for those to come in you can clean up and tune up the rest of it.

Good find! :thumbup:


EDIT
ps, I thought about you this morn while pacing the vestibule with Jr at Mass... Saw this plaque:

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Paul W Gillespie

Thanks for the reply. Would you be able to point me towards the type of parts that will work, when you have some time. I am not sure how irons and cap irons are sized/model #'s for something like this. I would also not know what the proper lever cap would be. I have been looking ebay, but not sure what ones will work with this plane, if it matters. I would also like to try and get a lever cap that is close to period as the Bailey, if that makes sense. Would it say Stanley on it or Bailey or anything. I have a cap iron and blade from a craftsman bench plane that is almost new, but are they interchangable/same size, or are the specific to a No5?


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## Paul W Gillespie

Yeah there seem to be a lot of Gillespie's out there. It's a long story, but Gillespie was not even my blood grandfather, on my dad's sides name. So I don't have any real Gillespie relatives, except my cousins, who are my dad's half brother's daughters. Like I said long story, but made short.


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## firemedic

It shouldn't be too much trouble to find a period correct cap iron. Continue researching what it should have and I'll try to help ya a bit if I get time this coming week.

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Paul W Gillespie

Thanks. From further reading on the Blood and Gore site, the Bailey could be from the 1920's due to the light bulb design of the front knob, but lack of raised cast iron ring around it, which came to be in the 30's. Older ones, prior to the 1920's had a shorter mushroom type knob. Which makes me wonder about the other No5 I have, which has the lower knob. If I was reading this right, that would mean that the cap lever would be unbranded with a keyhole for the screw, rather than the one marked Stanley with the kidney shaped hole, that came about in the 30's. I got all this from this page http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#numa4 and I could be reading/interpreting it wrong.

If anyone has a No5 form the 20's or 30's I would love to see a picture.


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## joe bailey

Paul - what you need is a "type study" - one located here: http://www.rexmill.com/ is as good as any, and better than most. On rt hand side of page, navigate to type study. It will walk you through characteristics of your plane to narrow down time period.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Thanks Joe I will check it out. Upon some further review, with a better light and a photographic loop I have discovered both planes have STANLEY engraved on the lever at the top. So I think the non Bailey one is even older than the Bailey. I feel like I am on CSI or something.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Joe you are the man. That site is awesome. I got the one No5, not marked Bailey as a Stanley Type 7 1893-1899 and the one No5 marked Bailey as a Stanley Sweethart Type 13 1925-1928. Now that I know the age I can try and find some old parts.


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## joe bailey

Glad to be of assistance - soon you'll be able to "type" a plane at 20 paces.


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## firemedic

Well, there ya go! Good info there, Joe. You sure are proving to be quite hand tools Mecca! :thumbup:

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Paul W Gillespie

Darn it, wasted the day waiting for an ebay auction for an iron and chip breaker and then missed it by 60 cents. Found a guy/site http://www.antique-used-tools.com/index.html that seems to have the parts and I am waiting for a call back to see how much it is just to buy them. For at least the newer Bailey that is in better shape at this point.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Just got a quote from the used tool dealer of 49.95 for the iron, cap iron, screw and cap lever. These would be vintage matched to my plane and in user grade. I am assuming that user grade would be not the best, but no rust or pitting. I would double check that before buying. So for $55 I could have a nice, user, Bailey No5 Jack Plane made between 1925-1928. For the next couple of days I may continue looking on EBay and other places for a less expensive option. I will also start cleaning up the Bailey to really see how nice it would be before I go ahead and get the parts.

I think my Bailey is on pretty good shape from what I been seeing on EBay. I might be able to get one for around $55 complete, but most are a bit newer than mine. I think it would be pretty cool to get this one back to working shape. I can't help but think how cool it is to have/use an almost 90 year old tool. What was built with this thing? How many people owned it? Does it have magical wood working powers that will come alive once I finished restoring her? Having spent the last two days researching these two planes and wasting yesterday waiting for an EBay auction to end, I think I am becoming a little obsessed. My wife and brother think I am nuts.

I also have the Stanley No5 from 1893-1899 that I may restore. That could be 119 years old. What did this one build? Who could have owned it? That is pretty wild. If it was in better shape I would think about doing it first. Who knows I may just put it on EBay to pay for some of the other ones parts.

I don't think I am going to do anything too drastic as far as cleaning. I may just use some mineral spirits and a green tuffy pad. While I would love to see that grain in the handles, I am not sure if I should sand them. I might lightly sand the bottom to get it as smooth as possible. 

What would you guys do as far as restoring them? Would you pay the $50 for the period parts?


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## joesbucketorust

Paul W Gillespie said:


> Would you pay the $50 for the period parts?


No, because the #5 is the most common of the entire Stanley line. There is no need to pay collector prices for what will end up being a Frankenplane. I'd put them on a shelf, and keep an eye out on fleabay for the parts to come up individually, or for a plane with a broken body or frog to pop up. All you need is the proper size and since everyone based their design off of yours, just about any jack plane piece is going to fit. They are a lot more common than those prices suggests - I've probably got enough for 6-7 planes just laying on the floor by my desk. 
How about taking the spring/summer to enjoy the hunt, and if you don't have any luck in a few months shoot me a PM and maybe we could work out a trade.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Thanks Joe,

That was kind of what I was leaning towards. It is funny, the hunt is half the fun. To be honest, it might be more fun at this point, than I think hand planing a piece of wood would be. I am not that big into using the hand tools, for planing right now, maybe in the future. I do become obessed with the hunt for tools and these two pieces have taken a lot of my time the last few days. I did enjoy researching the dates and learning about them.

Joe, anyone, would you worry about getting parts from the same vintage or just any parts that will work?


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## Billy De

Paul just a bit of information if you do decide to go on the hunt.
Number 4 & 5 plane irons back irons and caps are inter changeable.
But there are 4 1/4 & 5 1/4 and these irons are smaller , I think 1 3/4" but not quite sure of the exact size.
There are also 4 1/2 & 5 1/2 and the irons are 2 3/8" wide and inter changeable with number 6 and 7 for planes. 
Number 8 is 2 5/8" and on their own.
Bit of trivia Stanley never put Bailey`s name on their planes while Bailey was alive.

The story goes that Bailey was a excellent plane maker but a bad business man and Stanley bought him out.

This is just my personal opinion but I think Bailey was a small fish eaten up by a bigger fish.Even though Stanley bought him out Bailey went on to make two more planes that he called the Invincible and the Victor. some how I think that bailey was saying something to Stanley

Enjoy the hunt. billy.


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## joe bailey

Paul - don't pay that price for parts.
No. 5s are plentiful in the wild, taking a back seat only to number 4s. The hunt is the fun part.
If, however, you tire of it, I've PM'd you a few other leads.
That guy you were dealing with it has the highest prices around, in my opinion.


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## Wrangler02

I agree with Joe. Just find the parts that fit and enjoy.


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## firemedic

I agree whole heartily with Joe's advice... Except I'd go the extra coin for a Hock iron & cap... You'll thank me.

~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


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## Wrangler02

firemedic said:


> I agree whole heartily with Joe's advice... Except I'd go the extra coin for a Hock iron & cap... You'll thank me.
> 
> ~tom "Ignorance is not a lack of intelligence - it's a lack of know-how"


He's right! I love my #5 with the Hock Iron.


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## Greg in Maryland

*Try this*

Hi Paul,

I have replaced all my original Stanley blades with Hock blades and cap irons. Firemedic is spot on, you won't regret it.

If you have the time, there is a tool swap/auction in Damascus, Maryland on March 10th. I have never been to it, but from what I understand it is well worth the effort to get there. I believe that your're suppose to get there no later than 6:00 am to fully take advantage of the plethora of antique tool purchasing opportunities. Damascus is about an hour from Annapolis, MD (If that is where you live in Anne Arundel county)

The organization that runs the tool swap/auction is PATINA and the website is: http://www.patinatools.org/auctioninfo.asp

It would probably would be possible to get the parts from someone in person if you brought your planes. 

Have fun restoring them.

Greg


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## Paul W Gillespie

Question for all you stanley hand plane pros. Will the newer style cap lever with the kidney shaped hole work on the older planes with the key hole? There seem to be way more of the kindney hole ones on ebay. Since I am baiscally making a frankenplane for my own use should I even try and get period parts? I know a lot of you have said go with the Hock blade, but for now, I am not going to spend the 50+ dollars for one and still need to buy the cap lever. Maybe if down the line I really get into hand planing things it will be the way to go.

Thanks
Paul


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## joesbucketorust

Kidney or keyhole doesn't matter - just width.
Edit: The question of period parts is your own personal preference. Mine is "no". A frankenplane is a frankenplane, only to be used or sold as a user. To spend the extra $ looking for period parts is a waste of money I could spend on even more tools. And only a collector is going to look at the plane from 20 paces and call you out on a lever cap with the wrong type of nickel plating, or a logo on the cutter that doesn't match the patent date behind the frog.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Thanks Joe I'm going to look for some newer parts and make it a user plane. As long as they are from any no5 or even a no4 I should be ok?


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## Paul W Gillespie

Joebucketorust is the man. I get home from Costco and see a Priority Mail box, open it up and BAM. An Iron, chip breaker and a Lever cap for my one of my No5's. I should mention, and publicly thank him, that he generously gave these to me, shipping included. I now have all the parts to put one of my antique babies back together again. I will have to start cleaning it up. I am currently going to restore, to the best of my ability, the Bailey Type 13 I have. It looks like the iron and chip breaker are from that era. I can't wait to get it cleaned up and in good user condition. I think it is pretty wild having a tool made between 1925-1928 and being able to still use it today. I still hope to eventually get the Type 7 1893-99 no5 working someday, but it is in rougher shape.

Thank you Joe. You are awesome.

***Update*** In the newspaper used to pack the box I found another lever cap and chip breaker, so when I get another iron, I should be able to get both working. Thanks Joe and I will pay it forward once I am in a position to, as far as tools, but I will always pass on what ever I can now.


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## Shop Dad

Looks great and +1 Joe! Lets see some shavings!


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## autre

Man. That's just cool. 

This isn't the first thread I've read where Joe(sbuckeorust) has most unselfishly helped/aided other forum members.

Kudos to Joe. -Okay- *HUGE KUDOS* to Joe.


-And- what Shop Dad said +1.


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## Paul W Gillespie

Some more questions on restoration. What should I use to get the crude off/out of the nooks? I am talking dirt and gunk, not rust. I have read some folks use warm soapy water and a nylon or tooth brush, just be sure to dry the parts really well. Then for the rust would mineral spirits and a green scrub pad be good? I am not trying to get it all shiny and new looking, just clean and good looking. I don't mind the patina. Of course the sole is a different story right? That should be lapped with sand paper and made smooth and flat again, right? How about the wood parts. Any tips would be appreciated.


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## joe bailey

Paul - my answers to your questions, in no particular order. I think plane sole lapping is totally unnecessary 99.9% of the time. Simple Green and a toothbrush works great for cleaning japanned areas without hurting anything. As to de-rusting without overshining, I like grey scotchbrite pads with WD-40 as a cutting agent.


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## ACP

1. I think that's one of the coolest things I've read here in a long time. You are a hell of a guy Joe. May your rust bucket always be full. 

2. Very happy for you Paul, I bet that was a very exciting day getting the plane up and running.

3. I do lap my soles to see how the condition they are in. I will take a permanent marker and mark a grid pattern on the sole and then run it over the sandpaper a few times to see where the high or low spots are. I think if your plane is on the same plane around the toe, heel and mouth you'll be happy. It really depends on what you want to do with the #5. It's a jack, but it can be used for smaller jointing, for roughing, for smoothing. I don't worry about flat as much for roughing. For jointing and smoothing I'm more finicky and that's a personal preference. You'll never go wrong with flat though right? 

PS if the permanent marker is any worry, don't let it be, denatured alcohol will wipe it right off if you decide you don't want to flatten it all the way.


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