# Breakfast Nook - Need advice on framing benches



## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

Hi all,

I'm planning on building an L-shaped nook (bench seats with storage and table) for our breakfast area. I haven't found too many plans online, and I'm new to woodworking. 

I'm curious as to the best way to frame/construct the storage bench seats. I think each leg of the L will be about 5'L x 20"H x 20"D. Should I be framing out the box with 2x4's and then skinning the surface with 1/4" plywood or something along those lines, or are the 2x4's overkill? Some DIY sites I've found said to frame the box almost like a wall, with studs every 16", etc. I've seen plans on here for a corner bench that looked very nice but that was done using just the plywood. My concern here is that the nook will be a high traffic area for our family and I want to make sure that the seating and table are rock solid for years to come.

Anyone care to weigh in?

Thanks in advance!


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## Victory 1 (Jul 23, 2011)

At five feet in length, you can get away with just using a plywood box.

Only because you will not have a joint to deal with.

Do create a level 2x4 base to set the carcass on to

Make construction easier.

I would build two boxes and set them in place. 

Install piano hinges for easy access, but more access panels are better

Than two big panels.

Also consider the 20 height, it may be too tall.


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## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

Victory 1 said:


> At five feet in length, you can get away with just using a plywood box.


So... something like this would support how much weight exactly?
http://www.mydadsshoes.com/2011/02/corner-storage-bench-designing.html
http://www.mydadsshoes.com/2011/02/corner-storage-bench-building.html
http://www.mydadsshoes.com/2011/04/corner-storage-bench-still-building.html
http://www.mydadsshoes.com/2011/07/corner-storage-bench-in-place.html




Victory 1 said:


> Only because you will not have a joint to deal with.


Sorry, but can you explain what you mean here?





Victory 1 said:


> Also consider the 20 height, it may be too tall.


What would be a standard height, from floor to top of seat (keeping in mind it may get padded at some point)?


Thanks!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would build two separate boxes as bases with plywood, and might make the toe kicks loose and out of 3/4" A/C Fir, and cover with whatever finish desired. 

Seat height would be 18" to the top of a cushion or wood (if a wood top). About 18" minimum for the seat depth. If there is a back to the seating, it can be straight, but a 5-7 degree angle works pretty good.












 







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## Victory 1 (Jul 23, 2011)

The front/face of the bench/box will be able to carry 

Any/all vertical load you will be placing on it.

The seat surface will be able to do the same if

You use 3/4 plyboard, since the distance from

Front to back is relatively short.

No framing will be needed because you are staying

Within the dimensions of a piece of paneling, so no 

Consideration is needed to secure a panel joint.

If the Bench was 8,9 or 10 feet long you will need to

Join panels together and this would create a joint (design 

Dependent).

So a modular construction is a practical method 

Ar this point in time. Just a Cabinetman explained in the previous 

Post.

I am just trying to keep it simple for you.


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## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> I would build two separate boxes as bases with plywood, and might make the toe kicks loose and out of 3/4" A/C Fir, and cover with whatever finish desired.
> 
> Seat height would be 18" to the top of a cushion or wood (if a wood top). About 18" minimum for the seat depth. If there is a back to the seating, it can be straight, but a 5-7 degree angle works pretty good.
> 
> .


 
Ahhh very helpful. A few follow up questions:

1) can you go into more detail on the toekicks? Would these be recessed like on kitchen cabinets? Do I need one at all? Also, what is A/C Fir? Pardon my ignorance. 

2) regarding the box construction, what is the best way to secure the plywood sheets to themself? Wood.glue and screws? Brads? Some type of cleat attached to ply that I can screw into? 

Thanks...I'm sure I'll have more questions as the design progresses but this site seems to be a great resource!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

PSUlion01 said:


> Ahhh very helpful. A few follow up questions:
> 
> 1) can you go into more detail on the toekicks? Would these be recessed like on kitchen cabinets? Do I need one at all? Also, what is A/C Fir? Pardon my ignorance.


You can make them visually like kitchen cabinets, and they may match what you have on your cabinets. The usual dimensions are 4" high, 3" deep. You can use that as a guide, and do the fronts and finished ends. That area of cabinets or furniture can be subject to kicking, scuffing, cleaning, mopping, etc. It's also a possibility that liquid spills can get to them. 

A/C fir plywood is an exterior grade of plywood that is water resistant. The A/C is a grading of the plywood for construction purposes. The "A" stands for the quality of the face of the plywood, the "C" stands for the quality of the back of the plywood. Having loose toekicks enables you to remove a damaged one and replace it, instead of having a front or an end to the bench that goes to the floor receiving damage. That would be more difficult to repair. Another advantage, it would be easier to level the benches by just having to level the toekicks and then installing the lower part of the bench on top.



PSUlion01 said:


> 2) regarding the box construction, what is the best way to secure the plywood sheets to themself? Wood.glue and screws? Brads? Some type of cleat attached to ply that I can screw into?


You didn't state what the ultimate finish would be. IOW, are you wanting this nook to be a finished hardwood plywood, or a painted finish. I would suggest using dadoes and rabbets with glue and clamps. Whether you use fasteners of a certain type (screws, brads. or staples) may depend on the finished look. 

Construction details for a "storage box" type seat would be a box basically, with front to back dividers. Those dividers provide the structural strength for both the overall shape and for supporting the lid. You could have just a lift off lid. Or, if hinged, use overlay designed lids (which would work like cabinet doors). Being an overlay, they would be supported by the top edge of the box on their edges.












 







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## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> You can make them visually like kitchen cabinets, and they may match what you have on your cabinets. The usual dimensions are 4" high, 3" deep. You can use that as a guide, and do the fronts and finished ends. That area of cabinets or furniture can be subject to kicking, scuffing, cleaning, mopping, etc. It's also a possibility that liquid spills can get to them.


Very helpful. Thanks.




> A/C fir plywood is an exterior grade of plywood that is water resistant. The A/C is a grading of the plywood for construction purposes. The "A" stands for the quality of the face of the plywood, the "C" stands for the quality of the back of the plywood. Having loose toekicks enables you to remove a damaged one and replace it, instead of having a front or an end to the bench that goes to the floor receiving damage. That would be more difficult to repair. Another advantage, it would be easier to level the benches by just having to level the toekicks and then installing the lower part of the bench on top.


Also good info. By saying "loose toekicks", would i want to build a 2x4 frame as a base, level it, edge the sides with my toekick board (screwed in or attached with brads), and then just place the bench cabinet on top, screwing the bottom of the cabinet down into the 2x4 base?

Any suggestions on where to get the lumber? Something tells me that Lowes or Home Depot isn't the place to go. Other than the A/C fir for the toekicks, what grade should I be looking at for the rest of the project (or does it really depend on if we're painting or staining)?




> You didn't state what the ultimate finish would be. IOW, are you wanting this nook to be a finished hardwood plywood, or a painted finish.


I don't know either... need to talk with the wife on this one. Again, if we opt to paint, should I be looking at a lesser grade of lumber?




> I would suggest using dadoes and rabbets with glue and clamps. Whether you use fasteners of a certain type (screws, brads. or staples) may depend on the finished look.


Just to confirm, dadoes and rabbets with just glue would be strong enough? Sorry, I just haven't built stuff like this before (though I'm handy), so I don't have a sense of the strength and stability of such joints. All I keep thinking is that my kids or wife will be sitting on this bench and the joints blow out! 




> Construction details for a "storage box" type seat would be a box basically, with front to back dividers. Those dividers provide the structural strength for both the overall shape and for supporting the lid. You could have just a lift off lid. Or, if hinged, use overlay designed lids (which would work like cabinet doors). Being an overlay, they would be supported by the top edge of the box on their edges.


Yep, this is what I'm picturing. For the lid I'm thinking it'll be hinged (piano hinges), with the doors being about 2' each so as not to be too big. I might use a thicker piece of wood, almost like a countertop (1.5" thick) for the seat... Still undecided though. If attaching these hinged, overlay lids, would I want a strip of wood along the back edge of the bench (maybe 2-3" wide) that is secured to the base? This way I'd attach the hinged lid/seat to this strip? Sorry... working on this in SketchUp and will share as my design takes shape.


One last question... I'm not sure about the seat back just yet, but if I wanted to do something slightly angled as suggested above, what's the best approach? Should I have plywood sides on each end of the bench and secure the seatback again with dadoes on the sides and bottom, with some type of finishing trim along the top edge?

Thanks!!!


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## Victory 1 (Jul 23, 2011)

Awesome thread guys:thumbsup:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

PSUlion01 said:


> Also good info. By saying "loose toekicks", would i want to build a 2x4 frame as a base, level it, edge the sides with my toekick board (screwed in or attached with brads), and then just place the bench cabinet on top, screwing the bottom of the cabinet down into the 2x4 base?


I don't use 2x4's for anything. Toe kicks can be just 3/4" plywood. At the top corners (where the front & back meet the sides, fasten a triangle (about 3" sides for the 90 degree corner with glue), as a corner gusset (brace). This helps maintain a 90 degree corner for the toe kick, and gives a screwing area to mount the base of the cabinet...if you wish to fasten the cabinet to the base. You could just set the toekick in some spots of caulk, and with the cabinet screwed to the wall, the toekick will be secure.



PSUlion01 said:


> Any suggestions on where to get the lumber? Something tells me that Lowes or Home Depot isn't the place to go. Other than the A/C fir for the toekicks, what grade should I be looking at for the rest of the project (or does it really depend on if we're painting or staining)?


You should make a decision on what your finish will be. The home centers do carry a variety of plywoods that may be suitable.



PSUlion01 said:


> I don't know either... need to talk with the wife on this one. Again, if we opt to paint, should I be looking at a lesser grade of lumber?


A good paint grade plywood would be Maple, or Poplar if its in stock.




PSUlion01 said:


> Just to confirm, dadoes and rabbets with just glue would be strong enough? Sorry, I just haven't built stuff like this before (though I'm handy), so I don't have a sense of the strength and stability of such joints. All I keep thinking is that my kids or wife will be sitting on this bench and the joints blow out!



Again, this may depend on the finish. But, using a mechanical fastener, like screws or brads will help maintain a good glue joint.




PSUlion01 said:


> Yep, this is what I'm picturing. For the lid I'm thinking it'll be hinged (piano hinges), with the doors being about 2' each so as not to be too big. I might use a thicker piece of wood, almost like a countertop (1.5" thick) for the seat... Still undecided though. If attaching these hinged, overlay lids, would I want a strip of wood along the back edge of the bench (maybe 2-3" wide) that is secured to the base? This way I'd attach the hinged lid/seat to this strip? Sorry... working on this in SketchUp and will share as my design takes shape.


I would suggest using the euro hinges, as they have 3 way adjustment. Piano hinges have no adjustment. With an overlay door, the lid would be supported by the sides, or the vertical back section. Adding a support strip would help, but keep in mind that there is an overlay amount for the hinges, that has to be figured in.




PSUlion01 said:


> One last question... I'm not sure about the seat back just yet, but if I wanted to do something slightly angled as suggested above, what's the best approach? Should I have plywood sides on each end of the bench and secure the seatback again with dadoes on the sides and bottom, with some type of finishing trim along the top edge?
> Thanks!!!


You could configure sides that are narrow, because you don't want to make access to the bench difficult. Here is an example, shown with integrated feet (no toekick).












 







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## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> You could configure sides that are narrow, because you don't want to make access to the bench difficult. Here is an example, shown with integrated feet (no toekick).


Now, this is exactly what the wife and I had in mind! Odd that I can't seem to find any furniture places selling something like this, thus my adventure into building it myself. Trying to figure out how this is actually constructed may be a challenge though. 

Does it seem to be mostly 3/4" ply for the base/sides, and 1x2 or 1x3's for the faces? Would I look to use pocket screws to secure all of this?

Looks like Lowes has plans for a similar storage chest. Maybe this is a good place for me to start. 

http://www.lowescreativeideas.com/idea-library/projects/shop_class_storage_chest_0909.aspx


Thoughts?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

PSUlion01 said:


> Now, this is exactly what the wife and I had in mind! Odd that I can't seem to find any furniture places selling something like this, thus my adventure into building it myself. Trying to figure out how this is actually constructed may be a challenge though.
> 
> Does it seem to be mostly 3/4" ply for the base/sides, and 1x2 or 1x3's for the faces? Would I look to use pocket screws to secure all of this?
> 
> ...


The seat in my link is most likely solid wood (glued up panels). You can use any method you choose for assembly. I don't use pocket screws or biscuits.












 







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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Here is a suggestion. You haven't listed your location, so can't help more than this.












 







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## ink (Feb 3, 2011)

Hey, that bench you linked to is the one I built. It's far from "professional", but I'm really happy with how it turned out. If you'd like any pictures of anything in particular, let me know.

It does have dividers in it to help w/ weight distribution across the lids. I used 3/4" ply, and that was probably overkill. I feel no flex at all sitting/standing on it.

Looking forward to seeing how yours goes!

Edit: noticed you liked the one cabinetman linked... that's for sale down the street from me in the Amish Market store. If you have something similar near you, you might check there.


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## MichaelVirginia (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm going to build a breakfast nook very similar to that. How did it turn out?

Mike


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## PSUlion01 (Aug 24, 2011)

MikeV said:


> I'm going to build a breakfast nook very similar to that. How did it turn out?
> 
> Mike



Ours came out pretty good considering it was my first project of this type. The wife loves it and we're able to seat about 8 at our table when we add some chairs. Knowing what I know now though, I'd change a few things. So much so that I'm contemplating a tear-down and rebuild. The plywood used for the seating surfaces just doesn't look good to me, and there are some design things that I still haven't figured out (how to terminate the ends of the benches, mainly). Also having a hard time finding a table to fit it properly, and I have my doubts as to my ability to build what I need.

It is built like a tank though, and it gave us a bunch of storage space. I just wish it looked more like a finished piece and not something I did myself, but then again I tend to be pretty harsh on myself.

I give it about an 9 for function and maybe a 6 for style.


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## MichaelVirginia (Feb 22, 2013)

*Thanks*

Maybe cushions on the seat would dress it up some?

Perhaps using a router to dress up some edges and add some design work to the panels.

I just bought a router and am looking for ways to use it on the table and benches. We'll see.. I intend to build a pedistall table that goes with it... Wish me luck.

Mike


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## MichaelVirginia (Feb 22, 2013)

*picture*

Could you post some pics of the plywood seating areas and the ends of the benches... I suspect youd get some sugestions from experienced wood workers. Id try to offer my thoughts if you like..

Mike
Rookie:blink: Wanna be Wood Artisan


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## Vjlfpm (Jan 30, 2015)

ink,

Do you still have the plans for the breakfast nook you built? That's exactly what I been looking for to build myself. Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Vjlfpm


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