# I hate designers!



## sausagefingers (Oct 1, 2008)

Sorry just need to rant. I've been working on this couple's house for a month or so now, the people told us what they wanted, we explained what we were going to do, and began work when everything was ready. No problems right? NO...After we finished their enormous living room with like 75 feet of box beams, and like 1700 square feet of paneling, a set of plans from her designer shows up showing a completely different layout for the beams and sizes and shapes of the panels. We think we're fine because they are showing like 6 foot wide panels, which as we know doesn't happen since plywood is only 4' wide. Unless you want to butt 1/4" ply together, and I'm not willing to do. So long story short, designers show up, bitch about how "EVERYTHING IS WRONG!" And actually try to get us to redo it. Now we've been battling with them about pretty much everything, and they are ALWAYS right, and impossible to deal with. They act like we don't have any design since, because we're young and only carpenters, not "world class designers" like he is.


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## john5mt (Feb 27, 2009)

tell him you'll do 6ft oc but he needs to order the 6ft plywood

designers are usually primadonnas who dont like getting dirty anyway.


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## RLHERRON (May 15, 2008)

Come on now, Designers don't make mistakes. I've got 2 extra refigerators on my sales floor now. Something about measuring and useing a tape measure she just didn't understand:laughing:

When I'm dealing with a designer or someone I know that's going to be a PI A_ _ I add 10-15%:thumbsup:

Good Luck!!

RLH


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sausagefingers said:


> Sorry just need to rant. I've been working on this couple's house for a month or so now, the people told us what they wanted, we explained what we were going to do, and began work when everything was ready. No problems right? NO...After we finished their enormous living room with like 75 feet of box beams, and like 1700 square feet of paneling, a set of plans from her designer shows up showing a completely different layout for the beams and sizes and shapes of the panels. We think we're fine because they are showing like 6 foot wide panels, which as we know doesn't happen since plywood is only 4' wide. Unless you want to butt 1/4" ply together, and I'm not willing to do. So long story short, designers show up, bitch about how "EVERYTHING IS WRONG!" And actually try to get us to redo it. Now we've been battling with them about pretty much everything, and they are ALWAYS right, and impossible to deal with. They act like we don't have any design since, because we're young and only carpenters, not "world class designers" like he is.



What's that mean...the designer shows up with a completely different set of plans? What plans were you working from? The difference in opinion should come from who is in charge of the job. 

Designers are a major factor of my income and I try to work the best I can with them. Seems like nobody is in charge there. Actually you can do 6' wide panels just by seaming two 1/4" panels. If done right, it will just look like a veneer flitch.

Sounds like the project has to be organized to the point that everybody is working and following one set of plans...the one approved by the client.


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

Sausage: May I ask Who approved the plans to do what you already did? Was there any written approval by the customer? Also you only talked about the PIA designer, what about the customer what do they have to say about the new plans?:huh:


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## sausagefingers (Oct 1, 2008)

Sorry...i made it sound like we had plans originally. Everything that we discussed and how it was going to be done was agreed with the homeowner and the designer, so we started doing it. Then the designer sent very basic plans on what to do after we had everything done. What makes it really difficult is that the designer lives and works in Dallas, and i'm in Oklahoma City, so any decision that the homeowner can't make herself, which is every decision, takes a day so a picture can be emailed, and then responded, then explained why or why not something can or can't be done. Luckily there's plenty of work to do in the rest of the house, we just want them to realize that we're not idiots and aren't just nailing wood to the walls for shnits-n-giggles. Anyway, we had a breakthrough today the designer agreed with us on a stupid idea of NOT panelling a particular part of a wall because there will be curtains hanging there. We woudn't even be dealing with this guy, but the homeowners own a fabric store and they basically traded cheap fabric for free design. Oh well rich people will always need to seek aproval from others. hahaha. I've got to post pictures of what we done and try to describe what the designer wanted.


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## scribbles (Mar 2, 2009)

We are not designers, and we are not architects, we are carpenters. We build what we are asked to and do it well. Show your skill in your joints, and your miters, your finish, and the longevity of your project. I just finished a 40k project on a building, and I can't stand the design that the architect used, but I am a professional I built what the client wanted, and they were ecstatic at the end. The quality of the furnishings is impeccable and will last for the next 20 years, and I have gotten many referrals from the owner, and architect. That is our reward, to be able to work with our hands and create each day, without clients we can not create anything.


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## sausagefingers (Oct 1, 2008)

scribbles said:


> We are not designers, and we are not architects, we are carpenters. We build what we are asked to and do it well. Show your skill in your joints, and your miters, your finish, and the longevity of your project. I just finished a 40k project on a building, and I can't stand the design that the architect used, but I am a professional I built what the client wanted, and they were ecstatic at the end. The quality of the furnishings is impeccable and will last for the next 20 years, and I have gotten many referrals from the owner, and architect. That is our reward, to be able to work with our hands and create each day, without clients we can not create anything.


You are completely right. But what makes this kinda different is how the homeowner will come in decide on an element, tell us "I want it like this." Then immediately say, "but i have to check with my designer first" That just drives me nuts. This lady isn't worried about if she likes it or not, but if it's what her designer wants. We keep trying to explain that it's HER house, not her designers and that in the end it's what makes her happy, and that's what we're trying to accomplish....


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Sausage,
I know what you saying. I was building houses when times were better, and more often than not, my customers were making their own decisions, along with input from me both pro and con to what they wanted. I would make suggestions on trim and woodwork, fixtures, features, etc., based on what they told me they wanted the house to look like. I would give them some options and basically I always explained it from day one, that I was trying to advise them in such a way as to get the best value for the dollar. I would try to make them realize that there was no rhyme or reason in pricing of electrical and plumbing fixtures, there were alternatives to sub zero refridges, etc. But once in awhile I had a designer involved. I quickly learned to bite my tongue when it came to decorating. What they wanted is what they got. The only thing I would not compromise on was the structural integrity of the house or code issues. Even some of the architects (not all) did not understand some of the structural elements of building. So all in all, it's a big game out there. A lot of it is perception. I always try to do the best I can, do what I told the customer I was going to do, and charge a fair price for that, and finish the job to their satisfaction. That has always kept me out of trouble. If I get a bad vibe at the first visit with a new customer, I politely pass. Not worth it in the long run. If I sense that the customer is going to be either a PITA, or one of those that thinks they are buying a used car, the price goes up accordingly to make it worth while and make allowances for a couple of extra trips.
Mike Hawkins


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## clampman (Oct 20, 2006)

Sausage,

You are learning. If you are working T&M you are getting a paid vacation, not losing anything but your patience. If it was a hard bid, then you are paying now for the education, and probably will be until the job is finished.

Hard bids should be given based upon Plan #4A, Revision 3, dated Jan1,2009 signed by Biaggio Flopp, Architect and Ms. Phoebe Foofoo, Owner. 

Never give a hard bid without the above, and you must KEEP that set of prints safe, for the duration of the job. I once had a "construction management firm" try to slip a changed set of prints in on me to show where "I" had screwed up vanity heights in 6 upstairs bathrooms.

Never sign an AIA contract. Never sign any contract with the phrase "Time is of the essence" in it. 

In short, write your own contract, and NEVER EVER include a single thing that you are NOT going to do in that contract. Your contract will spell out only those things that you ARE going to do. Then have a (gag) lawyer check it over - one you are paying for.

Charge for writing up change orders, and charge for the change orders themselves. Make sure they are paid for as they occur - do not let them accumulate.

Charge for mockups, and insist (in your written contract) they be requested in plenty of time that your work schedule is not interrupted.

When hand rails and component parts come in - check to make sure everything is correct, then get them off site and install them last. Inspectors will not give CO's without stair and guard rails installed.

Make sure your contract stipulates that you are on a schedule, and if things are changed or decisions on change orders not made in a timely manner, you may have to pull off the job to start another, and may not be back until that job is finished.

In short, to make money in this business, you have to act like a businessman. 

Conduct yourself professionally, and make architects, owners and "designers" do the same. The only way to do this is with a written contract.

Good luck.
Jim


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## scribbles (Mar 2, 2009)

great advice.


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## RStocker (Mar 18, 2009)

sausagefingers said:


> Sorry...i made it sound like we had plans originally. Everything that we discussed and how it was going to be done was agreed with the homeowner and the designer, so we started doing it. Then the designer sent very basic plans on what to do after we had everything done. What makes it really difficult is that the designer lives and works in Dallas, and i'm in Oklahoma City, so any decision that the homeowner can't make herself, which is every decision, takes a day so a picture can be emailed, and then responded, then explained why or why not something can or can't be done. Luckily there's plenty of work to do in the rest of the house, we just want them to realize that we're not idiots and aren't just nailing wood to the walls for shnits-n-giggles. Anyway, we had a breakthrough today the designer agreed with us on a stupid idea of NOT panelling a particular part of a wall because there will be curtains hanging there. We woudn't even be dealing with this guy, but the homeowners own a fabric store and they basically traded cheap fabric for free design. Oh well rich people will always need to seek aproval from others. hahaha. I've got to post pictures of what we done and try to describe what the designer wanted.


Designers are nuts and so are most architects. They design things that you can not build or cost so much that no one wants to bid. 
With that said do you have a lisence? My bet is that you do not. If you are working by the hour charge for the changes. A verbal agrement is a contract. A set of plans that you bid on is a legal contract. Why would you start building with out design plans? I can build and design as I go along. Then again I have been a general contractor and architect for 34 years. As Frank L Wright once said. If an architect does his job there will be no need for a designer. In most states anyone can call themselves a designer with no lisence. Only the good ones have a lisence. They would never give you the ok to start with out design plans. Home owners think they can make changes after work has been done all the time. They do not think they need to pay for the changes. The designers that you are working with have no clue but then neither do you. You can have larger sizes of plywood made up or you could glue up your own panels from solid lumber. Do not blame anyone but yourself for working with out plans. When you see the plans you can tell them it is not cost efective and not a good idea. If you got the go ahead from the home owner that is a contract. Do you have a lisence. If yes then you can take them to court to get your money. If not you still may take them to court depending on the state. The laws are very different from state to state. 
With all that said you do not know what you are doing because you are working with out approved plans. The ball is in your court. I feel your pain but your lack of education in doing business is too blame.


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## sausagefingers (Oct 1, 2008)

RStocker said:


> Designers are nuts and so are most architects. They design things that you can not build or cost so much that no one wants to bid.
> With that said do you have a lisence? My bet is that you do not. If you are working by the hour charge for the changes. A verbal agrement is a contract. A set of plans that you bid on is a legal contract. Why would you start building with out design plans? I can build and design as I go along. Then again I have been a general contractor and architect for 34 years. As Frank L Wright once said. If an architect does his job there will be no need for a designer. In most states anyone can call themselves a designer with no lisence. Only the good ones have a lisence. They would never give you the ok to start with out design plans. Home owners think they can make changes after work has been done all the time. They do not think they need to pay for the changes. The designers that you are working with have no clue but then neither do you. You can have larger sizes of plywood made up or you could glue up your own panels from solid lumber. Do not blame anyone but yourself for working with out plans. When you see the plans you can tell them it is not cost efective and not a good idea. If you got the go ahead from the home owner that is a contract. Do you have a lisence. If yes then you can take them to court to get your money. If not you still may take them to court depending on the state. The laws are very different from state to state.
> With all that said you do not know what you are doing because you are working with out approved plans. The ball is in your court. I feel your pain but your lack of education in doing business is too blame.


No i do not have a license, but in Oklahoma there aren't licenses. Yes we're insured and have workers comp, but that isn't even necessary here. Now i'm only 27, but I have also had my own cabinetry and trim business for 5 years and had been buiding cabinets and trimming houses for 3 years prior to going out on my own. Not as long as you, but not to brag, but me and my partner are VERY talented at what we do and take our jobs very serioulsly. And for starting without plans, we didn't know there were going to be actual physical plans. We explained exactly what we were going to do in their room, I even drew pictures of how, at least the paneling, was going to be layed out and the homeowner agreed. The homeonwers both agreed that they loved it, and whatever they didn't understand about layout, we explained something was a certain way and they understood. The problem is, we take this stuff so seriously, that if someone gives a design that doesn't work well, we are going to try to make it right. Even if a designer, who is not even being paid for a job, doesn't like it. Sometimes things just don't work, and that's something we all know about. But what matters is what the people that are paying us like. The husband absolutely loves everything and went as far as to say, "I'm paying for all of this, I don't care what he (the designer) wants, it's my house and I'll do what I like." That sounds like he is pissed, but he really wasn't. hahaha...


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

I've got a few years on most of you here, and that means only one thing. I've been screwed more often. But with all the heartache and heartburn, I've done one thing. I've learned.

Written contracts. Drawings signed by the person responsible for decisions. Pages and pages of specifications clearly and abundantly spelled out in no uncertain terms. Periodic inspections and approvals... signed off!

And the biggest one of all. CHANGE ORDERS.... signed and approved. These are going to one day save your butt!

Go forward with anything less, and you have only one person to blame for your shortsightedness.... and it ain't the designer... nor the architect... nor the owner.

Courts have a hard time with "he said, but I thought..." They LOVE hard copy paperwork.


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## scribbles (Mar 2, 2009)

I wish i was so orginized, normally I just do it for free

I am getting better though.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Clampman,
Very good advice. Sausage, I think you have probably learned your lesson. On simple jobs where you normally don't need prints or even drawings for, make sure you show samples, and that the customer understands fully what you are doing. Then submit a simple proposal stating what you are going to do and for how much. For example, if you were installing crown and chair rail and casing a couple of openings in a dining room, you wouldn't need prints, etc. But show the customer the different cutoff samples of each molding you are using, show them how high up the chair rail will be installed, etc. 
On the larger jobs that require drawings, do what Clampman said. Go over the drawings with the customer and make sure they understand. Ask pertinent questions to make sure everyone is on the same page. Explain everything in detail so they can understand. Use layman's terms, shy away from trade talk. Then get them to sign off on the drawings. Discuss payment schedules, change orders, etc. up front with them. The whole key is to try and eliminate surprises. People don't like them. Keep an open and honest communication with your clients. If you get into a pissing contest, most likely you will lose, especially in the long run.
Finally, RStocker, not sure what part of the country you are in, but I know for a fact in Ohio, verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they aren't written on. Around here, the judges and attorneys will laugh you right out of the courtroom if you don't have any kind of written proof. It pays to have it in writing. That being said, I have done an awful lot of small jobs over the years without any paperwork up front. But most of these were one day jobs like garage door and opener installs, entrance door R & R's, etc. And the majority of my customers were always referals. I try to do the proper paperwork nowadays just to keep myself out of trouble. 
Mike Hawkins​


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