# What's the correct method to join these?



## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Hello,

Would you please tell me what is the best method, particularly for a beginner, to assemble the frame shown in the picture? I am considering the use of pocket holes to join the 2x4s and 4x4s. However, I am concerned that this method may not be appropriate. An example of why: The center joint (looks like an "X", where one 2x4 is met with 2 other 2x4s that are opposite of each other, appears that pocket hole screws will interfere with each other. The interference could prevent proper usage of the screws, or it may weaken the integrity of the joint. The other joints may suffer issues with pocket holes due to the angles. Am I correct? I have also considered cross-lap joints at the "X", but I fear my skill set is insufficient. I greatly look forward to your recommendations. Thank you for your time.
Note: I have used the free version of Sketchup to create the frame. I also included the file predicting its usefulness for some.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Depends on what you are using this for. Is this a work bench, coffee table, etc.? You could do the whole thing with pocket screws. Where they meet at the X, you drill holes on opposite sides of the pieces that are running parallel with the length. You don't need them on both sides of each piece. Pocket screws and glue are probably the easier method if your skills aren't up there yet. Another way would to use mortise and tenon joinery. It isn't that difficult if you take your time to correctly lay out all the joints before you start cutting.
Mike Hawkins


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Pocket screws are fasteners, not a joinery method, no matter what Kreg claims 

Don't get me wrong, I like pocket screws and use them in my work, but they have areas where they should be used, like making a cabinet carcass, and areas where they shouldn't, like attaching table legs to the apron. The screws will pull out, it's a question of when, not if, and you'll be left with a wobbly, barely assembled table. 

In your particular case, look into dowel joints. They're probably the most beginner friendly method of joinery and are more than strong enough, just barely behind a traditional mortise and tenon joint. For corners where the dowels might interfere with each other, like the center cross in your model, you can simply offset the hole locations so the dowels don't make contact. Alternately, a half lap is incredibly simple to accomplish and may work better in this instance


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

There is no correct method of joinery, only a preferred method, whatever works with the tools and talent you have will be the best you can do.

Mortice and tenon would likely be the preferred method, but dowels, pocket screws, nails, etc. will all hold the parts together.


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## SleepingTiger (Jun 16, 2015)

Just get u a domino xl and the Seneca tool adapter kit to use the smaller cutter heads.


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

If all those joints are going to be held together with pocket hole screws then you better not plan on moving the table, because dragging or pushing it is going to put a lot of stress on the joints.

Not to tell you how to build a bench, but it would be much easier and stronger if you build the legs out of doubled up 2x4s, but cut the outer 2x4 to fit around 2x4’s that run the length of your bench.

An additional advantage of doing it this way is the 2x4 apron will be flush with the legs and bench top, allowing for many more clamping possibilities.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

I would watch a few videos first on various methods of joining at right angles.

Pocket Hole Cross Doweling by OTB Thinker (not an actual link but the title)
Try this one on utube

johnep


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you for the advice. I am using this as a workbench. I feel more confident using pocket holes, so that is the method I shall use. I'll be sure to keep the "X" connections opposite of each other.


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you for the advice. I like the dowl method. However, my confidence is low due to inexperience, so I fear I will be unsuccessful. Although, like my other activities, I won't succeed until I fail and learn from the mistakes. Perhaps I shall attempt a few.


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

As much as I would like the addition, the tool far exceeds my budget. Perhaps one day I will have one.


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

You have offered methods to contemplate. I will create a new model with your suggestions. Thank you kindly!


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

I would use two 3/4" dowels. Drill through the short brace and into the long braces. Make the dowels long (say 5") and glue. You could also add corner blocks to reinforce it if needed. Fasten with screws to the top.


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## CharleyL (Jan 13, 2019)

Add glue to your pocket holed joints and it should be significantly stronger, but in my opinion, pocket hole joinery is NOT a good way to join the frame of a workbench. There are often significant side stresses on a workbench when using hand tools. Half lap joints can be made with just a saw and screws and would be significantly stronger, but I would add glue to these joints as well.

Charley


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you for the advice. I very much appreciate the detail provided. I shall consider these during assembly.


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

I have conducted much research. The general consensus is pocket holes are not best for structures under stress. Thank you for the additional confirmation.


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## woodshed (Feb 11, 2020)

All above answers assuming you have tools for wood joinery. Many ways making mortice tenon and other wood joints, but you need tools. What tools you got now for making wood joints? Are you wanting advice buying tools to make joints for above frame design? What is budget?

Do you have some of these tools? 
Marking tool, chisel, sharpening for chisel, drill, drill press, mortiser, plunge router, router bits, table saw, dado, jigs for tenon or jigs for dowel or other jigs. Do you have pocket screw jig now, or thinking about buying? Pocket screws are fast and easy answer, but not best answer.

Glue is making joints much stronger, but pocket screws not good answer.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

Add my name to the list of dowel supporters. Some basic wood engineering:
At the cross or "T" joints, the shorter span should be the through span--the principal span--and the longer spans are tributary spans.
You weaken the principal span less if you remove material at the center, the neutral axis, rather than the top or bottom, the compression and tension plates respectively. One big dowel right in the middle sounds odd and needs to be reinforced against rotation, but it is strongest.
The bearing strength of a joint depends on the bearing area of the weaker material. A small steel pin or screw may have the shear strength of a much larger wood dowel, but the limit of the strength is the bearing area of the wood that the pin or dowel sits on. 
If you have to use cross lap joints remember: the short span is the principal span, so you want to remove the upper portion (the compression plate) of the principal span, replacing it with a plug of roughly equal compressive strength, and leave the tension plate (the lower portion of the principal [shorter] span) intact.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Hoshijiro said:


> Thank you for the advice. I like the dowl method. However, my confidence is low due to inexperience, so I fear I will be unsuccessful. Although, like my other activities, I won't succeed until I fail and learn from the mistakes. Perhaps I shall attempt a few.


You'll never get anywhere if you let lack of confidence stop you from trying new techniques, particularly when the techniques you are comfortable with aren't appropriate for what you want to do. A workbench is going to be under a lot of stress, assuming you actually plan on working on it and not just letting it sit there. Pushing, pulling, twisting, every force is going to try to rip those screws out and they WILL rip out, and in fairly short order at that.

Honestly there's nothing difficult about dowel joints, a simple drilling jig and some layout lines are all you need to get them perfect. It's honestly as simple as drilling holes in the same place on both pieces, then adding glue and a stick before clamping. The end result is a joint that will split the wood apart before failing, rather than a screw that will just pull out


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

If you go with dowels pick up some of these, they make life a lot easier

https://www.rockler.com/dowel-centers-individual-sizes?sid=AF078


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## Nick Andriopoulos (Feb 3, 2020)

Hello from another newbie that is trying to do almost the same thing as you!

Since my expertise is also low, but wanted some joinery to get some experience out of this basic project, I went with a different route - see here (some plans included, let me know if you want the latest updated ones).

I've partially built this and it's already one solid piece. Will be adding the middle legs and fixing my mistakes in the coming week.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

epicfail48 said:


> Pocket screws are fasteners, not a joinery method, no matter what Kreg claims


I totally agree with this although I did watch a video by Kings Finewoodworking where he drove a car over a box put together with pocket screws.

In a workbench you need solid joinery to resist racking stresses. (Unless its fastened to a wall maybe). IMO nothing could beat a pinned mortise and tenon for this project. If you're not ready to dive into that, dowels or floating tenons would be a logical next choice.

Pocket screws could be used as a substitute for clamps. Another advantage is no wait dime for glue to dry. 

If you go this route, use the long 2 1/2" screws.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

DrRobert said:


> I totally agree with this although I did watch a video by Kings Finewoodworking where he drove a car over a box put together with pocket screws.


Worth mentioning here that you can also drive a car over a glass soda bottle


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Your build is incredible. I am very impressed. Are you certain you are a newbie? I jest; I have no reason to doubt you. 

I had had a person suggest using half laps as joinery. I am working on a new build in Sketchup to incorporate half laps. The biggest obstacle is learning how to use Sketchup, especially when I must add a half lap to a board. Despite the challenge, I am having nearly as much fun designing as I am building! 

If you are still willing to share your most update plans, I will be most grateful. Thank you very much for your kindness.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

I like the advice given in post #20, gives you a good solid base which you often need when using a workbench. There are other similar ideas where the legs are built with 2 boards half the thickness of the leg that also gives a solid base.
Lots of ideas here:
http://absolutelyfreeplans.com/workbenches.html


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## Nick Andriopoulos (Feb 3, 2020)

Hoshijiro said:


> Your build is incredible. I am very impressed. Are you certain you are a newbie? I jest; I have no reason to doubt you.
> 
> I had had a person suggest using half laps as joinery. I am working on a new build in Sketchup to incorporate half laps. The biggest obstacle is learning how to use Sketchup, especially when I must add a half lap to a board. Despite the challenge, I am having nearly as much fun designing as I am building!
> 
> If you are still willing to share your most update plans, I will be most grateful. Thank you very much for your kindness.


If you meant mine, thank you for the compliment! I've uploaded latest plans at the plan thread here just in case. Same color = identical pieces ( none of that left/right or front/back for this build ). Some notes/tips:

- Where I live (Greece), the closest dimentions I could easily find were 90mmx90mm for legs and 45mmx95mm for all else. Those are the dimensions used, but do consider them as 4x4 and 2x4 respectively. 
- Start with the corner legs, using the 2x4s for measuring instead of a ruler. That allows you to undercut, test fit and make sure the fit is snug (mine were quite loose and I am now gluing scrap to make the fit snug)
- When working on the 2x4s, do the miter cut first, and use the scrap to mark all of them. Will make it easier and that way you're sure everything is the same length (I did it after, which is more work and made some boards a bit shorter)

I'll probably be making a second bench, and will be trying those as well


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

Hoshijiro said:


> Hello,
> 
> Would you please tell me what is the best method, particularly for a beginner, to assemble the frame shown in the picture? I am considering the use of pocket holes to join the 2x4s and 4x4s. However, I am concerned that this method may not be appropriate. An example of why: The center joint (looks like an "X", where one 2x4 is met with 2 other 2x4s that are opposite of each other, appears that pocket hole screws will interfere with each other. The interference could prevent proper usage of the screws, or it may weaken the integrity of the joint. The other joints may suffer issues with pocket holes due to the angles. Am I correct? I have also considered cross-lap joints at the "X", but I fear my skill set is insufficient. I greatly look forward to your recommendations. Thank you for your time.
> Note: I have used the free version of Sketchup to create the frame. I also included the file predicting its usefulness for some.



OK, you said you are a Beginner... I could not see the sketchup picture...
I don't know if you are after a Miter (45 degree) or not...

If you want GOOD solid corner joint, I would suggest a simple Half-Lap joint...
Which means... cut 1/2 of the thickness away from each Corner board... Bottom half of your TOP board... and Top 1/2 from the bottom board. Now put them together so the lip of one board goes into the cutaway of the other; aka Half-Lap joint... When you glue thee together, it is AWFULLY VERY STRONG... and Super Easy to make!

Have fun... Let us know what you end up doing, OK?


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## wayneh (Nov 15, 2019)

I wouldn’t hesitate to use pocket screws for this project. That’s what I’d use, in fact. Just use a good glue as well. Where screws might collide, offset the pocket holes a bit so there’s no chance of collision. If you’re nervous about any of the joints, get braces or “repair plates” to supplement the pocket screws. 

It’s easy to get wrapped up in over-engineering a project. The failure points are often something you haven’t even considered yet. I wouldn’t sweat it too much. If a wobble develops, add a brace. No big deal.


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## Gramoy (Jan 10, 2020)

FrankC said:


> If you go with dowels pick up some of these, they make life a lot easier
> 
> https://www.rockler.com/dowel-centers-individual-sizes?sid=AF078


I'm with Frank C on this, I've some of these for years and they sure are simple (easy to use), inexpensive, and make aligning the dowels easy... There are plenty of places that sell 'em


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

wayneh said:


> I wouldn’t hesitate to use pocket screws for this project. That’s what I’d use, in fact. Just use a good glue as well. Where screws might collide, offset the pocket holes a bit so there’s no chance of collision. If you’re nervous about any of the joints, get braces or “repair plates” to supplement the pocket screws.
> 
> It’s easy to get wrapped up in over-engineering a project. The failure points are often something you haven’t even considered yet. I wouldn’t sweat it too much. If a wobble develops, add a brace. No big deal.


Why waste the time building something you know will fail? If you anticipate adding a brace in the future, why not take the time now to do things properly? After all, if you dont have time to do things right, when will you have time to do it over?


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## jrshall (Sep 25, 2019)

I like the suggestion of using double 2x4s for the legs, with the outer one shortened to allow the apron to sit on it, just like a header over a window opening in a wall. Another idea from basic carpentry is to use joist hangers on the cross pieces. It may not be "pure" joinery, but it will be very strong and easy to do with minimal tools. A workbench is mainly a utility item, and the cross pieces are not visible unless you lie on the floor and look up, so make it simple and strong and move on to other projects.


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## TobyC (Apr 30, 2013)

There are stronger and easier ways to go, snagged these from the internet.


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## seventhandbowler (Dec 3, 2019)

I also suggest using dowels. Making something for yourself is an excellent time and place to make a few mistakes while learning a new method for anything. By the time you're done you'll have drilled dozens of holes and will have your method nailed, so when it comes time to making something for someone else you'll have the experience and confidence to jump right in. 

Please keep us posted!


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

The project has provided much inspiration. Thank you for sharing!


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

You are most correct: confidence comes with experience; experience comes with courage. I have attempted multiple joinery methods, such as dowels, castle joints, half and cross laps and mortise and tenon. My initial attempts were flawed; however, the errors were most educational. I plan on using these methods in the assembly of my workbench, and I will do my best!


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## Hoshijiro (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you for the images. The joinery used is similar to my redesign. This elicits confidence that my redesign will be more resilient than my initial design.


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