# Mill-Route Conversion to CNC?



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I have a Mill-Route Carving System about 15 years old in excellent condition. It is a manual system for router duplicating and sign making with templates. It has 3 axis - left to right, front to back and up and down, if that is what 3 axis means. 
It moves failly easily with no slop in the bearings. The vertical axis is only about 3 inches or so which would be fine with me. 
Can this be reasonably and readily converted to a CNC machine and what kind of performance could I expect? or.....should I just buy the CNC Shark for slightly over $3K? It's always nice to save money, but that is not my prime motive. I think I would be happy with the CNC Shark that is why I chose it for the comparison. 
I am completely ignorant of CNC machines and that is why I am asking a very basic question...is a conversion practical or even possible?

Thanks in advance


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## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

I would think that any conversion would have to be model specific as it has to be programed for the specific parameters of that model. If a different model has a shaft of a different diameter than the other the programming would be off because it isn't calibrated for the movements of that shaft. I don't know that it is more complicated than that but it seems that it is a significant issue. A tiny error would have a big change in your design.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Not knowing anything about carve right or cnc machines, my guess would be that it would be considerably more expensive to try to adapt equipment than it would be to buy an off the shelf unit.

Gerry


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is what I learned so far. I can buy a complete CNC kit for around $1K. It includes everything except the software - another $500 bucks. The kit contains the 3 stepper motors, control panel and all cables. So now I will be thinking if this whole thing will be worth the $1500 upgrade. I think it might be but I am also running this past another forum or two. The only thing stopping me from my usual impulse buying is the scarey economy. Looks like by late fall, I will buy the kit or possibly the CNC Shark Pro. 
I have attached the brochure that came with my Mill-Route


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## ray crowell (Jul 25, 2009)

*mill route*

i got a mill route from my dad without a manual would it be possible to get a copy from you or maybe see your machine set up ,i will be in galveston in sept thanks ray


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## Larry Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Hi Tony,
I just found this sight and joined. I just picked up a mill-route and found it is missing some parts. Do you know where I can purchase what parts I need? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Tony I've been looking into building a CNC myself. I am posting some of the sites I found. After talking to a few people You can build one for any where between $500 (small and cheaper) to $1800 for a nice one. There are several different cofiguations and the best software out there is like $175 which is included in the prices. They even have free software but for $175 I'm leaning towards paying.

Oh the ones you build would be better the the shark which is made of MDF just like some of the Plans/models I looked at.

here goes some links

http://toolmonger.com/2007/10/04/the-cnc-revolution-will-not-be-televised/

http://www.cncroutersource.com/cnc-router-plans.html

_*http://www.mechmate.com/

http://www.solsylva.com/*_ 

_*http://www.cerebralmeltdown.com/cncstuff/page3/CNC_Machine_Builds/index.html*_

http://blog.onshoulders.org/index.php?blogID=Mill&startAt=5&order=desc&e=

*http://www.hobbycnc.com/*

http://buildyourcnc.com/default.aspx

http://www.durhamrobotics.com/easypage_2.html

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/

I know its allot of info but you might like some that I didn't. I'm leaning towards using a few plans to create mine with what I think is better. 

I like the links in red and one that's in bold

Hope it helps


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

ray crowell said:


> i got a mill route from my dad without a manual would it be possible to get a copy from you or maybe see your machine set up ,i will be in galveston in sept thanks ray


*Ray*
I work offshore in addition to running my shop. My present contract ends in August so I have no idea what my Sept. schedule will be like. Heck, I probably wont even be offshore in Sept - you might be in luck. Anyhoo.........If I am around in Sept, you are more than  welcome to visit my shop and even use the Mill Route. My shop phone is 281-687-4661. That phone gets answered whether I am offshore or on land. I think the stuff I posted above your post is all I have of the Mill Route instructions.

*Larry*
I have no idea where to pick up missing parts. The machine is very simple and I would think that you could make the parts or find them somewhere. They all look like standard parts that are easy to find. 
Can you send photos of what you think might be missing and when I get home a week from today, I will look at what I have and we can come up with an idea.

RR
I have been looking at some of the sites and it seems like there is nothing to it other than a few servos and a matching program. I have all but abandoned the idea of a conversion but not quite yet. Since I already have the rails with 3 axis, I could buy the servos and program for around - like you said- $500. The only thing stopping me now is the time to do anything. I understand that the hardest part of the whole thing is learning the software. I just dont have time for that. If I could pay someone locally to teach me the program, I would gladly pay.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

Tony my first thought is not the software or motors but the drives themselves. Your going to need a drive on all the axis of some sort, whether its an ACME screw, ball screw, belt, or chain. It takes a bit of thinking through to get them in there and working with no binding. 

I just got done with mine, and I got to say, it was worth every penny. Its a DIY build from MDF and hardware store parts. I have about $400 in electronics in it from Keling and the computer and screen were free through work. In total I would say I have about $800 in the whole set up and have roughly 20" x 40" cut. I am currently running ACME screws 1/2" and can get about 30-35 ft/min at full throttle. Here is a thread I started on it and would be more than happy to offer any advice I can. 

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/just-finished-new-router-jig-18032/

Here is a part I just finished today on the machine,took about 8 hours and 250,000 lines of Gcode. Its going on a Walnut/Tiger Maple keepsake box for my daughter. This is right off the press with no sanding, I just removed the dust. All this was done with freeware with exception to the CNC program which is Mach3.
















































Here are some parts I am cutting out for the machine to pull the cg on the gantry back. It will also improve dust collection although its pretty good right now. I did these about two weeks ago and have yet to really find the motivation to put them on as the machine works pretty awesome right now. 





























Be warned once you get it going, IT IS ADDICTIVE, your wife will wish it would catch on fire. Also one thing to think about in your expenses is endmills. Like anything else in life you get what you pay for, I have some cheapies and some good ones and it is a big difference. Either way they are not cheap. I probably have $200 in endmills at this point.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Thanks Nate*

Yes, I am aware of the threaded drive 'rods'. On a Mill-Route, it would be easy to add - lots of room. My only question would be is how substantial would the mill route be as far as physical stability. I think it would be fine, just not sure.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i am not an expert, but have been reading on and investigating cnc machines for over a year now. imho, you will be better off starting over and leaving the router mate intact (or sell it for $ to start cnc build). cnczone is one of my favorite sites. good luck and let us know how you made out.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I would add, that building one does several things. First you know every facet and how it works, how to fix it and how to improve it. The other is we're woodworkers, we build things. The build for me one of the most enjoyable projects I have built to date. Kind of woodworking in motion.


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## Larry Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Tony B said:


> *Ray*
> I work offshore in addition to running my shop. My present contract ends in August so I have no idea what my Sept. schedule will be like. Heck, I probably wont even be offshore in Sept - you might be in luck. Anyhoo.........If I am around in Sept, you are more than welcome to visit my shop and even use the Mill Route. My shop phone is 281-687-4661. That phone gets answered whether I am offshore or on land. I think the stuff I posted above your post is all I have of the Mill Route instructions.
> 
> *Larry*
> ...


 
Tony, 
The part I need is called the reducer assembly. Is the company that built this machine out of business?


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Nate1778 said:


> I would add, that building one does several things. First you know every facet and how it works, how to fix it and how to improve it. The other is we're woodworkers, we build things. The build for me one of the most enjoyable projects I have built to date. Kind of woodworking in motion.



Nate I have few questions. 

When you cut parts out of a sheet I know you have to clamp down the sheet but won't the part move as the cut finishes?

Also do you have a sacrificial piece that the work sits on when you make through cuts? or is there something else going on.

I heard your exact statement from someone else about the most enjoyable project. I'm looking forward to doing mine later this year.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> Nate I have few questions.
> 
> When you cut parts out of a sheet I know you have to clamp down the sheet but won't the part move as the cut finishes?
> 
> ...




Most CAM programs are going to have a "Holding Tab" section. They are usually automatic but can be manual if you want. You can add as many as you want and make them as small or large as you want. They are basically small connections between the piece and the offcut that is left to keep the part in place till its done. I generally make my Holding tabs .50 long by .10 deep. They are fairly easy to cut off with a razor when its done. In the sixth picture down you can see the parts are held in the board with these tabs. 


Yes the sacrificial piece is referred to as a "Spoil Board" in the CNC world. I use a piece of 2'x4' MDF. You can see mine in the first pic above. It simply clamps to the actual x axis table and I have been using screws to hold the work piece to it in the offcut area. I did put T-rail in the actual table but have yet to come up with a decent clamping system that holds the part true but stays out of the way. I have some designs drawn up but I have yet to cut them out. 


It was fun to build and I love messing with it. Whats weird about it is the horse above took ~8 hours to do, in the mean time I went to the movies with my daughter and then a family reunion. When I got back it was done. It was like I was working but I was not there.


For those of you that are thinking about this, there is no reason you cannot start learning the software and steps to making things. You need a CAD, CAM, and CNC program, all three are available on line for free and will allow you to start learning how to do things before you need to. The CNC program will even run a simulation of the cut, so virtually cut a virtual part. That way when you put the final bolt in your machine you can start cutting things without having to learn the system. 

I recommend learning Sketchup for the initial CAD program, its great for 2D parts and some 3D parts. Remember that Sketchup defaults circles to 24 sides so to get a decent circle change the number to 100 or so. Doesn't make sense till you cut a part and it comes out with 24 sides. Here is the Sketchup link, and a couple of plugin links that make using it with your CNC so easy. 

http://sketchup.google.com/
http://www.cerebralmeltdown.com/cncstuff/page2/cambam_export/default.htm
http://www.guitar-list.com/download-software/convert-sketchup-skp-files-dxf-or-stl


Next is the CAMBAM CAM program, I love this and its easy for the beginner to understand. Here is a link to their Freeware, and to the tutorials, which if you try a few the process reveals itself to you better than any trial and error you could ever do. 

http://www.cambam.co.uk/download/latest/cambam-free-beta-release-082.html
http://www.cambam.co.uk/docs/tutorials.html

The last is Mach 3, this is another freebee but does put a limit to the Gcode to 500 lines. Once you get the machine going you may want to activate this software as you can blow 500 lines pretty quick. This program is easy to learn as it does one thing, but it does it well, it runs your machine. This is where you will put in all your machines info. Drive type, size inputs/and outputs. It will still function without all this input and still allow you to simulate a cut. This is where you will put the G-Code generated in your CAM program. 

http://www.machsupport.com/downloads.php
(you want to download the "Lockdown" Version)

If you guys would like when I get a shot I will do a document that takes me from a part in Sketchup to a part on the table to give a bit better clarity on how all this goes together. It truly is simple once you wrap your mind around the software.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks Nate I saved a copy of that last post.

I noticed you built yours with MDF like so many others. I was thinking of using something like Baltic birch or a good 3/4" plywood to get it a little more rigid and hopefully stronger. I've read that the stronger it is the more aggressive of a cut can be made. Any opinion on that?


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> I noticed you built yours with MDF like so many others. I was thinking of using something like Baltic birch or a good 3/4" plywood to get it a little more rigid and hopefully stronger. I've read that the stronger it is the more aggressive of a cut can be made. Any opinion on that?




For me there was no other choice, MDF is strong, stable and flat and seamed like the logical choice. Its also easy to machine. There have been reports that even high end plywood expands and contracts (even fractions) and in a machine where .001 of an inch can make a difference. The tough part about MDF is the joinery. The cross dowels and bolts took care of that although if you look at my gantry sides above I actually put a dado in the top that the gantry top will fit into as that is a high pressure area. 

My unit has a little flex but not much and requires some force but it has not been noticeable in anything I have cut. As far as depth per cut, I think that is a little misleading. No matter whether your running an all steel machine of MDF, the bit is only going to cut so much wood so quickly before you snap the bit or stall the stepper. I find that to get through 3/4" MDF.20 of a pass with a 1/4" upcut at 30ft/min is a pretty good clip, with no issues. You can go .25 but the bit starts to burn as it is eating to much to clear in time. This may be related to the bit. The horse above, the tip of the bit was .06 round ball, I removed .10 per pass depth and overlapped the previous pass .01 over. As you can tell this does not put much stress on the blade at all and the machine can move at any speed, although you'll get some pixilation the faster you go. 

Also keep in mind steppers is where you want to spend a little money. I went with 425oz steppers and they chug right along. I have yet to stall one, but there are guys out there that do all the time with the lighter 200-280oz models. I am overall happy with the MDF and parts are easy to change and move around. 

I have a buddy with a 5'x10' plasma cutter and he offered to cut steel or aluminum for a different machine. Thus far I have not really felt the need to upgrade.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

OK yeah you are right MDF is more stable then plywood. I did here on several sites to go with the bigger steppers. The one thing I noticed with allot of the machines people build is they use Dremels or trim routers which is why I wanted to beef mine up some to use a full size router. yours is a full size router and MDF so that helps. The CNC Shark is also MDF and smaller then yours and cost around 2K. Thats why building one was a no brain er. The angle and skate bearings you used worked well from what you said and it seans like one of the easier setups to make.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

Definitely an easy build but one must stick to some exactness. I really like the skate bearing and rail as it is slick and easy. The full size router is definitely big and heavy, hence trying to get the CG of the Z back to the center. 

If I had to do it all over again, I would build the machine I have and then start working on a machine like this one with the first one. 

http://buildyourcnc.com/blackToe2x4v40.aspx

The only thing I like about it is the table is supported. While my table has steel angle iron under it keeping it up the gantry weighs a ton and I worry about sagging. Thus far I have not noticed any but it is always on my mind. I was even all about the chain drive but tell you the truth the screws work pretty flawlessly.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Last thing since we kind of hijacked the thread. Not that the OP probably is taking notes for his future build but hows the DC work with it? I seen a few that made a little shroud from brush bristles and one had soft mini strips of pvc like a walk in cooler has keeping the dust in the area better so the DC hose worked more efficient.

I have heard allot of people build the first one then use it to improve the second one. I like your design you said it came from a link listed earlier right? It's similar to what I wanted but seams easier to build. I have a tendency to overkill or overbuild whatever you call it.

Thanks for sharing and If I have any questions I may PM you or GeeksGoneBad He built a really nice one using extruded aluminum 80/20 I believe and it was the second one the first was MDF and used to build the second one.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

"Dust Collection" is excellent, "Chip collection" not so great. I think the only way you could get everything is with the suction port right at the bit like this setup.



















Here is the link to the book build I did, worth the $20 and an easy read, it is an instruction manual that covers electronics connections and its done in layman's terms. It was real easy to follow and for a woodworker a breeze and enjoyable. 

http://buildyourcnc.com/Book.aspx

You can always drop me a PM anytime, although I think a CNC section here is about due as the technology is getting to be more available.


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## sandhill (Sep 15, 2013)

*We must be the only two*



Tony B said:


> I have a Mill-Route Carving System about 15 years old in excellent condition. It is a manual system for router duplicating and sign making with templates. It has 3 axis - left to right, front to back and up and down, if that is what 3 axis means.
> It moves failly easily with no slop in the bearings. The vertical axis is only about 3 inches or so which would be fine with me.
> Can this be reasonably and readily converted to a CNC machine and what kind of performance could I expect? or.....should I just buy the CNC Shark for slightly over $3K? It's always nice to save money, but that is not my prime motive. I think I would be happy with the CNC Shark that is why I chose it for the comparison.
> I am completely ignorant of CNC machines and that is why I am asking a very basic question...is a conversion practical or even possible?
> ...


 I was just given a mill route the other day I have no need to a CNC but I would like to use MR as it is. Do you have a manual on it? Or do you know where to locate one? Thanks


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