# Lathe Tools



## jg2259 (Oct 28, 2011)

Hi, I am new to turning, but have done a lot of research. I purchased an 8 pc set of Harbor Freight lathe tools to learn to turn and to sharpen.

I was just about ready to build a Wolverine type jig, when I found a Woodcut Tru Grind jig, an Ace 6" grinder, with 5 wheels(Norton/3M Grey/White) for $130. 

Now I am attemping to sharpen my tools. I setup the Tru Grind on my Harbor Freight 8"wet/6"dry grinder, and I am surprised at how good of a job the wet wheel does, although I don't have anything to compare it to, because I have never sharpened a lathe tool before. But I have sharpened plane irons and chisels, and I definitely know what sharp is. 

My problem is, I can't tell the difference between a spindle gouge, bowl gouge, roughing gouge, etc. I'm not even sure if the set included a bowl gouge. I'm trying to sharpen these tools by the standards that are documented in the Tru Grind manual, but need to know what I am sharpening, so I can apply the correct settings. I have attached pics of two of the gouges that I am having trouble identifying. 

Any insight is greatly appreciated. 
Jim


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

They both are spindle gouges. There are no bowl gouges in the harbor freight sets.


With the harbor freight set, the very smallest spindle gouge can be
used as a small bowl gouge. The surface area on the other gouges are too much for bowl gouge use. The will grab a big chunk and either rip the bowl blank apart, rip the blank off the lathe or just sup the lathe. Any of the above outcomes are not good.
There were 2 turning sets sold by harbor freight. The cheaper one is pretty crappy. The more expensive one is kinda almost ok. It is however, far superior to the cheaper set.

U can make some decent scrapers from old files and some specialized ones from old chisels and screw drivers.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Actually they are both roughing gouges for spindle work. They are used to remove the square sides off of a long rectangle prior to making a bat or a table leg. 

I think that buying a whole set of tools is a common mistake that most new woodturners make when starting out. You just end up with quite a few tools that are never used. 

I've been woodturning for quite some time now and only use about 4 bowl gouges on a regular basis. I have more tools and they only get used for specialty cuts or detailing.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Tony B said:


> U can make some decent scrapers from old files and some specialized ones from old chisels and screw drivers.


Tony, you should never use old files to make a woodturning tool. They are far too brittle and can turn into a projectile. 

Scraping is over rated in my book. You can get a great cut from a well sharpened gouge, no need to scrape. Whenever I do my last gouge cut I make sure that it has been freshly sharpened. This minimizes tear out and eliminates a lot of sanding time.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I heard about the old files being brittle, in the 30 years or so, I never personally met anyone that had it happen to. I'm sure it happens, but so far it hasn't to me. 

If making a relatively flat bottom on a not so wide bowl, I have to use a scraper. If a proper burr is put on a scraper, it will cut as clean as a bowl gouge, just not deep.

BTW, you can cut a square or somewhat rectangular spindle with a standard spindle gouge. just depends on how you hold it. I only had one roughing qouge, and it was a large one. I used it mainly on green wood for peeling the bark and knocking of the rough edges. The rest was done on a spindle gouge. 

The real advantage of buying a set is that you have a lot of tools to practice with and also to practice sharpening. Without all the jigs and other gadgets, it takes a while to learn how to sharpen off of a grinder or sharpener by hand.

I still think that they are spindle gouges, but I'm not going to debate it. Way back when, most gouges came that way - the front was cut straight across. Want till later on they started to cut the corners off and pull the sides back a little to look more like a fingernail. 
Even in the mid 1970's, most bowl gouges came that way. Then along came some of the early pioneers in artistic bowl turning like David Ellsworth and Liem O'Neil. Soon after that. SOME, but not all gouge manufacturers started pulling the sides back. Liem O'neil pulled the sides way back so you could use more of a cutting edge and also could actually peel to a certain degree. I havent bought any gouges in a long time so I dont know how they come these days. Also, back then there were none of the little disks that are used in the front of a tool.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Woodychips said:


> Actually they are both roughing gouges for spindle work. They are used to remove the square sides off of a long rectangle prior to making a bat or a table leg.


No, they are both spindle gouges ... the old style continental gouges before modern tools started using round bar stock. Spindle roughing gouges are a very pronounced deep U shape ... I am presuming that all the various pictures are of the same two tools, but since you don't have them labeled it makes looking at the pictures somewhat confusing as to what I am looking at. I think that it would be better if the pictures were shot from an angle to give a better perspective rather than the "mug shot" view which makes it more difficult to assess the shapes. Those type spindle gouges can be used for roughing by leaving the grind straight across. However, for use as a typical spindle gouge, the sides of the gouge need to be swept back a bit to give it a more fingernail shape. I don't know if the HF tools made from flat stock are HSS or carbon steel, but you will be able to determine that by looking at the sparks coming off the grinder. Carbon steel will create a shower of sparks while HSS barely produces any sparks. Don't use the gray wheel because it will burn the tool edges and not get them as sharp as using the aluminum oxide or ceramic wheels will.


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## Thorn495 (Feb 28, 2014)

I got that set and returned it after a few of them broke. Don't extend them too far over the tool rest or you might do the same. I think those would be good to learn sharpening and as you graduate to better quality tools, and you can reshape them to whatever you'd like for certain projects in the future.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

This is why I think they are roughing gouges for spindle work. They look the same as these to me...


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

The more I look at the pictures, the more I think that the OP is showing more than two tools. It's clear that at least a couple of them are very shallow. Then in a couple more pictures it is hard to tell what they are because of the flat perspective.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I think the kits comes with 3 gouges, 1 parting tool, 2 skews and some scrapers.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Woody Chips

Take a photo of your roughing tools, both of them, at the same angle as the 5th photo down on the original post. 
I would like to see the comparison between the gouges as to the curvature of them. I know for fact, that the larger one of yours is a roughing tool because it is similar to the one I had. The roughing gouge will have a noticably deeper curve (more round) than a spindle gouge. The roughing gouge will look more like a "U" while the spindle gouges have a much larger radius.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Roughing vs Spindle Gouges*

The center of the first page (21) shows a profile of a roughing gouge also called a roughing spindle gouge.
The bottom of the 2nd page (22) shows the profile of a spindle gouge.
Notice the round shape of the roughing gouge compared to the shallow curvature of the spindle gouge.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Tony, that's just a screenshot of the gouges in the Lee Valley catalogue. I had the smaller gouge on the left way back when. I don't do any spindle work at all so no more gouges of that type.


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## jg2259 (Oct 28, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. The pictures are of only 2 tools. I tried to take pics from all perspectives. I will take more pics today or tomorrow. There is only one other gouge in the set, and it is much smaller. I am assuming it is definitely a spindle gouge, but the two that I pictured confuse me. One has a deeper flute than the other. Since the profiles of the flutes are different, I thought that maybe one was a roughing spindle gouge and one was a bowl gouge. 

What is the difference between a roughing gouge, vs roughing spindle gouge va spindle gouge?

Thanks again, I'm learning alot from the replies. 

Jim


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

A roughing gouge is used to "rough down" a piece pf stock to a cylinder shape. The stock could start out as square, rectangular, or even an irregular branch. The spindle gouge is used to make the final cove shapes in the cylinder/dowel. The three gouges you have are what I believe to be spindle gouges. If not, they can all be used as spindle gouges. The different sizes are for larger and smaller cove cuts. The smallest gouge might possibly be used as a bowl gouge even though it is not. Because of the smaller cutting edge, you might get away with using as a bowl gouge. The one with the deeper flute looks to be somewhere between a spindle gouge and a roughing gouge. You can use all of them as both. 
I suggest you get on youtube.com and watch a bunch of videos. I doubt if anyone on here is going to write a book for you on how to use them. Then if you are having problems, you can ask specific questions on here.

I would also advise you give the gouges a more fingernail shape. YOutube will also show you how to shape the gouges. Fill a coffee can with water and quench your tools very often when shaping or sharpening. And watch carefully that you dont burn them on the grinder, which is very easy to do.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Quenching is not necessarily needed any more but it will depend on the quality of your tools. Back in the day when they just sold carbon steel tools, yes you quench. Now most tools are high speed steel or better. These can take the heat without losing their tensile properties. No need to quench with these. 

If you paid $90 for a set of 6 I can guarantee that the are low quality.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Jg2259, it can get confusing for sure. There are roughing gouges for spindle work AND bowl work. They are shaped quite differently. The pictures you and I supplied are for spindle work. A bowl roughing gouge has a much deeper and narrower profile. I use a bowl roughing gouge for hogging away wet green wood when I have a very rough shape spinning. It'll take off the edges and bark from a log in no time.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Turning Wood by Richard Raffan*

This is my all time recommended book. It was his first book in 1985.
This book taught me almost everything I know about woodturning. 
He explains with photos how to sharpen and how to hold tools to turn.
I had no one to teach me and then I found this book, It turned me into a turning junkie. This book will answer all of your questions. 
BTW, you must conquer sharpening before you can really progress in turning. I would suggest that if you get addicted to turning green wood, you learn to sharpen by hand on a grinder and a stone the old fashioned way. When you turn green bowls from start to finish all at one time, the bowl will warp and change shape as you are turning. The bowl will not wait for you to sharpen with jigs. You gotta be fast with the grinder and stone.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Woodychips said:


> Jg2259, it can get confusing for sure. There are roughing gouges for spindle work AND bowl work. They are shaped quite differently. The pictures you and I supplied are for spindle work. A bowl roughing gouge has a much deeper and narrower profile. I use a bowl roughing gouge for hogging away wet green wood when I have a very rough shape spinning. It'll take off the edges and bark from a log in no time.


A bowl roughing gouge?


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I rough down a bowl with a regular bowl gouge. Didnt even know they made bowl roughing gouges. 
What I have thought about for roughing a bowl was an blade/dick that looks like it mounts on an angle grinder but the edge is like a chainsaw. They use them for large carvings. I could see that as a major time saver.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Tony B said:


> I rough down a bowl with a regular bowl gouge. Didnt even know they made bowl roughing gouges....


They don't ... At least, not officially, but if you have a bowl gouge that is your "go-to" tool for that task, there's no reason why you couldn't call it your bowl roughing gouge. My favorite is whichever tool is sharp.

What I have thought about for roughing a bowl was an blade/dick that looks like it mounts on an angle grinder but the edge is like a chainsaw. They use them for large carvings. I could see that as a major time saver.[/QUOTE]

Are you thinking of something like the Arbortech tool?


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Sounds like your thing about the Lancelot which is a short chainsaw blade attached to a disc that fits on a 4" angle grinder. I use one a lot for carving, not for roughing bowls. Those tools along with the Arbortec are dangerous and should only be used by experienced people.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

yes, something like the Arbortec. Its tool late for me to buy one now, I lo longer have a lathe


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Bill Boehme said:


> They don't ... At least, not officially, but if you have a bowl gouge that is your "go-to" tool for that task, there's no reason why you couldn't call it your bowl roughing gouge. My favorite is whichever tool is sharp. What I have thought about for roughing a bowl was an blade/dick that looks like it mounts on an angle grinder but the edge is like a chainsaw. They use them for large carvings. I could see that as a major time saver.


 Are you thinking of something like the Arbortech tool?[/QUOTE] 

Hmmmm. Bought many "bowl roughing gouges" in the past 20 years. They are even labeled and advertised as such. Not something made up but whatever...


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## jg2259 (Oct 28, 2011)

Ok, I now am aware that the two gouges that I pictured ARE NOT bowl gouges. 
I am going to purchase a Thompson 1/2" bowl gouge (probably U flute).

Am I correct that Thompson gouges do not have handles? I'm not concerned about actually turning the handle, but I am worried about the proper way to install the blade into the handle. 
Do I make the hole tight or loose? Do I use epoxy, and if I do, should I drill a small hole somewhere for the air and epoxy to escape? If I like the size and shape of the handles I make, what is the easiest method of removing the handles of my HF tools, without damaging the tang? I always wondered this about paring chisel handles too. I'd love to make new handles for them also, but don't want to damage them. Some have tangs and others have sockets. 


I may also buy another lower quality bowl gouge (Bens Best/Grizzly/Artsan/???) to experiment with different grinds. Which lower quality/inexpensive manufacturer makes a tool that is still usable?


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Woodychips said:


> Hmmmm. Bought many "bowl roughing gouges" in the past 20 years. They are even labeled and advertised as such.


 Can you post a link to one advertised as such? Until recently, spindle roughing gouges were simply labeled as roughing gouges. At the urging of the AAW to help clarify the purpose of the tool, most manufacturers have begun using the name spindle roughing gouge although some of them bristled at the idea of some upstart American organization telling them what to call their tools.

BTW, Some things got mangled up in quotations a few posts back. Your quote of what I wrote became merged with what Tony B wrote in his post. However, I see why it happened because the beginning tag on a quote that I was making was left off which makes all of this probably seem confusing to somebody else trying to make sense of who is asking what. Just to hopefully, lessen confusion, the following isn't my idea, it is what Tony B wrote:



Tony B said:


> What I have thought about for roughing a bowl was an blade/dick that looks like it mounts on an angle grinder but the edge is like a chainsaw. They use them for large carvings. I could see that as a major time saver.


I asked if he was talking about an Arbortech.

And, I will have to agree with John Lucas that the Arbortech is a dangerous tool. 

Hopefully, that clears up some of the confusion.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The King Arthur "Lanceolot" blade has a saw chain edge and is designed to fit angle grinders. The waste positively explodes.
The other power saw fun toy is the "Log Wizard" for removing bark and unwanted sap wood. Fits the end of a chain saw bar.


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Bill. I will do some internet sleuthing for you tomorrow. I find it funny that since you've never heard of a bowl roughing gouge they don't exist but if I wish to call it that I may. Kinda cheesy and not very diplomatically put. Makes it sound like you think I'm full of ****. 

Not too impressed,


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## Woodychips (Oct 3, 2015)

Here you go Bill

The first picture is the back of the brochure that came with my Hamlet Glen Lucas bowl roughing gouge. 

The other pictures are from a quick search that I did on my IPad. 

The worn out gouge that I was trying to replace a month ago was "Home of Woodturning" brand and had a 1" thick shaft. A bull for rough turning bowls. Can't find those anymore

Enjoy


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