# Blotching Maple/Birch



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

This is another attempt to articulate my issue from an entry on Feb. 13th titled "Refinishing Whole Dining Room Set".

I have a serious blotching problem on a china cabinet that is maple or birch as shown in the first picture.

The second picture shows the impact of MinWax Wood Conditioner under some MinWax stain and is almost okay. I let the conditioner set for 15 minutes.

After doing more research and finding good information from a previous entry from Steve Neul I did the test shown in the 3rd picture. I sanded to 400 grit (perhaps too fine ... did not have any 320 grot paper) but only let the conditioner set for 5 minutes.

This morning I ordered online some of Charles Neil's pre-color conditioner. The price was okay but add shipping and Canadian exchange rate and it came out to $40 which is a pretty expensive test.

I also have some Varathane wood conditioner but have not done a test with it.

I cannot spray and I am becoming desperate to solve this at least to the point where the china cabinet will look okay. The local pros will charge me $500 plus to spray for me and my fixed price to my customer is $500.

Not a happy President's Day or a happy Family day here in cold Canada.

Thank you.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What you have to understand about these woods that blotch is the wood naturally has hard and soft places in the wood. Therefore the soft places absorb more of the stain than the harder places. Sanding to a finer grit helps harden the surface to more uniform consistency so it is less likely to blotch so these woods should always be sanded finer. Still the wood conditioner is needed. I have some of the Charles Neil blotch control but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. A lot of folks here have nice things to say about it though. Myself I have always used a 50/50 mixture of linseed oil and mineral spirits. With this concoction it's better to allow it to dry overnight.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> What you have to understand about these woods that blotch is the wood naturally has hard and soft places in the wood. Therefore the soft places absorb more of the stain than the harder places. Sanding to a finer grit helps harden the surface to more uniform consistency so it is less likely to blotch so these woods should always be sanded finer. Still the wood conditioner is needed. I have some of the Charles Neil blotch control but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. A lot of folks here have nice things to say about it though. Myself I have always used a 50/50 mixture of linseed oil and mineral spirits. With this concoction it's better to allow it to dry overnight.


Steve, thank you for the quick feedback.

Over the next week I will test your mixture and the Charles Neil solution when it arrives. My customer is away for 2 weeks and I was sure wanting to get all the staining done while she was gone.

Way back in 2012 when I was a pure rookie and had no idea what I was really doing (sometimes it feels only marginally better these days) I ran into the birch/maple issue head on. But I really didn't know what the problem was nor did I know where to get some help. No matter what tried I could not make stain look good on these pieces. My wife casually commnented that the wood looked darn nice so why not simply top coat and not stain. Since I was refinishing pieces to be sold it was my option so I did exactly that. They looked rather nice. I sold the 2 piece set for $125 and the 4 piece set for $250. That's how lousy the local market is for antiques.

It's a good thing that I love this hobby because I will never get rich doing it.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> What you have to understand about these woods that blotch is the wood naturally has hard and soft places in the wood. Therefore the soft places absorb more of the stain than the harder places. Sanding to a finer grit helps harden the surface to more uniform consistency so it is less likely to blotch so these woods should always be sanded finer. Still the wood conditioner is needed. I have some of the Charles Neil blotch control but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. A lot of folks here have nice things to say about it though. Myself I have always used a 50/50 mixture of linseed oil and mineral spirits. With this concoction it's better to allow it to dry overnight.


Steve, a couple of more questions if I may.

Would sanding to 400 grit or even finer make a difference?

Would filling the grain make a difference? And eliminate the dark specks with stain in the grain?

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sanding beyond 400 grit isn't going to help any. After that point you rely on the wood conditioner. 

On birch or maple there is no grain to fill so a grain filler isn't the product you need. If you wish to eliminate the dark specks when staining it would be better to use a water based stain rather than an oil based stain. I sometimes just mix a universal tinting color with water to make a more mellow stain. 

As far as making money at refinishing work, I pretty much quit doing it because there isn't much money in it. When I had a shop open to the public about all it was good for it paid my overhead. On the other hand it gave me a lot of experience mixing stain colors. This has helped me a lot in cabinet manufacturing because not a lot of cabinet shops can add a section of cabinets to an existing section and match the color.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sanding beyond 400 grit isn't going to help any. After that point you rely on the wood conditioner.
> 
> On birch or maple there is no grain to fill so a grain filler isn't the product you need. If you wish to eliminate the dark specks when staining it would be better to use a water based stain rather than an oil based stain. I sometimes just mix a universal tinting color with water to make a more mellow stain.
> 
> As far as making money at refinishing work, I pretty much quit doing it because there isn't much money in it. When I had a shop open to the public about all it was good for it paid my overhead. On the other hand it gave me a lot of experience mixing stain colors. This has helped me a lot in cabinet manufacturing because not a lot of cabinet shops can add a section of cabinets to an existing section and match the color.


 Steve, I have not tested a water based stain but I will add that to my list of pending tests. Somehow, someway I will get this china cabinet to look good for the customer.

Hopefully the other pieces of the dining room set will be easier to deal with given that they are mahogany veneer.

I am not surprised that opening a shop with the associated overhead would make it tough to make good money. But it sounds like you ended up with a nice skill set to do what you are doing. That is real craftsmanship work. Never in my dreams could I get to that level. Bravo.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve, I have not tested a water based stain but I will add that to my list of pending tests. Somehow, someway I will get this china cabinet to look good for the customer.
> 
> Hopefully the other pieces of the dining room set will be easier to deal with given that they are mahogany veneer.
> 
> ...


Actually Gary, I went into business to make new things and the closest outlet to sell my work was a antique fleamarket. It wasn't long before I was having antique dealers asking me if I repaired furniture. Desperate to get work I said sure I can do that. Then I had to teach myself to do it, at first sometimes over and over until I was satisfied with it. Then about the time things began going well I got in trouble with the city fire marshal. He wanted me to put in a spray booth, sprinkler system, double the sheet rock on the building walls and but some fire suppression cabinets to store paint in. All of this in a rented building. It didn't take long to figure out I had to leave town. I moved my business about 30 miles east of Dallas and met up with an antique dealer that has a 20,000 sq. ft. show room and I started doing repair work for him. Then one day he took me to another 10,000 sq. ft. warehouse where he had accumulated draw leaf tables and gateleg tables stacked up 2 and 3 high with a ugly finish on them and needed them refinished. I hired two helpers and it took us between two and three years to refinish them all. The guy was getting in containers of furniture from Europe and customers would pick through them and buy the ones with a good finish on them and just wait until the next shipment for more tables.


----------



## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

I have had good results with the water based dyes. Our local Woodcraft store carries the Transtint series of dies, both in powdered form and concentrated liquid form. You can mix them with water or alcohol. If you choose water, you should finish your sanding, dust the piece off, then take a slightly damp rag and wipe the wood down. This will raise the grain just a touch. Let it dry then lightly sand the nibs off and dust and tack. Now you can apply the dye and it shouldn't raise the grain. The dyes have a tendency not to blotch and are easily controllable. Too light, put on another coat. Too dark, wipe with a slightly damp rag and it will lighten. Wear rubber gloves because it will stain your fingers for a week or so. When you mix up your dye, do it in small batches and measure carefully, then test on an inconspicuous spot or scrap. A little goes a long way. 
If you use alcohol, it won't raise the grain, but will dry almost immediately. I like it for any kind of wood that blotches. The only oil based stains I use anymore are from either General Finishes, or Sherwin Williams' in house brand that I believe is called Woodscapes. I don't care for most of Minwax's products.
Mike Hawkins


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Actually Gary, I went into business to make new things and the closest outlet to sell my work was a antique fleamarket. It wasn't long before I was having antique dealers asking me if I repaired furniture. Desperate to get work I said sure I can do that. Then I had to teach myself to do it, at first sometimes over and over until I was satisfied with it. Then about the time things began going well I got in trouble with the city fire marshal. He wanted me to put in a spray booth, sprinkler system, double the sheet rock on the building walls and but some fire suppression cabinets to store paint in. All of this in a rented building. It didn't take long to figure out I had to leave town. I moved my business about 30 miles east of Dallas and met up with an antique dealer that has a 20,000 sq. ft. show room and I started doing repair work for him. Then one day he took me to another 10,000 sq. ft. warehouse where he had accumulated draw leaf tables and gateleg tables stacked up 2 and 3 high with a ugly finish on them and needed them refinished. I hired two helpers and it took us between two and three years to refinish them all. The guy was getting in containers of furniture from Europe and customers would pick through them and buy the ones with a good finish on them and just wait until the next shipment for more tables.


 Steve, that's some pretty interesting history. I can relate to the phrase "sometimes over and over" since I have done that a few times. Fortunately I can't relate to all the rules and regulations that would be forced on a business.

Taking 2 to 3 years to refinish tables is quite a challenge which obviously was conquered.

Thanks for sharing.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

firehawkmph said:


> I have had good results with the water based dyes. Our local Woodcraft store carries the Transtint series of dies, both in powdered form and concentrated liquid form. You can mix them with water or alcohol. If you choose water, you should finish your sanding, dust the piece off, then take a slightly damp rag and wipe the wood down. This will raise the grain just a touch. Let it dry then lightly sand the nibs off and dust and tack. Now you can apply the dye and it shouldn't raise the grain. The dyes have a tendency not to blotch and are easily controllable. Too light, put on another coat. Too dark, wipe with a slightly damp rag and it will lighten. Wear rubber gloves because it will stain your fingers for a week or so. When you mix up your dye, do it in small batches and measure carefully, then test on an inconspicuous spot or scrap. A little goes a long way.
> If you use alcohol, it won't raise the grain, but will dry almost immediately. I like it for any kind of wood that blotches. The only oil based stains I use anymore are from either General Finishes, or Sherwin Williams' in house brand that I believe is called Woodscapes. I don't care for most of Minwax's products.
> Mike Hawkins


 Mike, thank you for the input. I like and have used TransTint dyes diluted with water. These work well by hand but only on small areas. Without the ability to spray I an unable to use them successfully on large areas.

I gravitated to MinWax products simply because that what was easily available locally but there have been a few negative comments about them from this forum recently.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The only problem with Minwax stains is they aren't very colorfast. Over a period of 5 years or more you can see it beginning to fade. It doesn't really look faded though until it's about 15 years old.


----------



## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

GAF said:


> This is another attempt to articulate my issue from an entry on Feb. 13th titled "Refinishing Whole Dining Room Set".
> 
> I have a serious blotching problem on a china cabinet that is maple or birch as shown in the first picture.
> 
> ...


i use blotch control from charles neil all the time, what you do it put it on heavy or so the wood is wet let it dry , don't rub off , this will raise the grain, so a lite sanding , i use eather 220 or 400 which ever is easy to get to, i have all the grit's so just what i grab, just scuff sand so the surface is smooth, now put stain on and wipe off, i let all my stain parts set over nite so that they are dry, their will be no blotching then , i have use charles stuff ever sence it came out, work very well, here is a lint to his web page on blotching 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfCYMdrP8rM&list=UUUgl-M-8eVLCs5OwGx9CLsg


----------



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

If your using my BC , here is a blog I wrote that should help as well as explain blotching https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


----------



## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Here is some info regarding sanding that may be useful.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit. 

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental. 

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must. 

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion. 

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The finish left by the sizing machine determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The only problem with Minwax stains is they aren't very colorfast. Over a period of 5 years or more you can see it beginning to fade. It doesn't really look faded though until it's about 15 years old.


What product do you use Steve?

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

del schisler said:


> i use blotch control from charles neil all the time, what you do it put it on heavy or so the wood is wet let it dry , don't rub off , this will raise the grain, so a lite sanding , i use eather 220 or 400 which ever is easy to get to, i have all the grit's so just what i grab, just scuff sand so the surface is smooth, now put stain on and wipe off, i let all my stain parts set over nite so that they are dry, their will be no blotching then , i have use charles stuff ever sence it came out, work very well, here is a lint to his web page on blotching
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfCYMdrP8rM&list=UUUgl-M-8eVLCs5OwGx9CLsg


 Del, thank you for the positive review. I will be trying the Charles Neil product as soon as it arrives. Looking forward to it solving my problem. Sure hope so.

Gary

P.S. Thanks for the link too.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

HowardAcheson said:


> Here is some info regarding sanding that may be useful.
> 
> Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.
> 
> ...


 Howie, wow, thank you. I have printed and will read and digest.

Gary

P.S. Have not figured out what YMMV stands for.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> If your using my BC , here is a blog I wrote that should help as well as explain blotching https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


 Thanks, Charles. I am very anxious to try out your product when I get it. I will devour your blog and view your video again.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree with Howard. Sanding finer than #180 or #220 is wasted effort.

Material	First Sanding	2nd Sanding	Final Sanding
Oak 120 150 180
Birch 120 150 180
Maple 120 120 180
Mahogany 150 180 220
Walnut 150 180 220
Fir 120 150 180
Pine 120 150 120
Cherry 120 150 220
White Ash 120 150 180

I hardly ever sand any raw wood over 180 grit before I apply anything. Once I apply a pre conditioner, wash coat or any kind clear I put on first in my finishing schedule, I use 320 to scuff the clear so I dont sand through the clear. All my next coats of clear in my schedules get sanded with 280 or 240 grit till I apply my last finish coat.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> I agree with Howard. Sanding finer than #180 or #220 is wasted effort.
> 
> Material First Sanding 2nd Sanding Final Sanding
> Oak 120 150 180
> ...


 Thanks, Randy. I used to always sand to 220 but some time ago I start sanding only to 150. I find 180 grit discs harder to find. I like your summary.

Gary


----------



## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I've found 180 to be the sweet spot in terms of best finish.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't agree. Sanding types of wood prone to blotch to 320 grit help prevent blotching as much as the wood conditioner does.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't agree. Sanding types of wood prone to blotch to 320 grit help prevent blotching as much as the wood conditioner does.


The final grit should depend on the type of wood. That technique will work on cherry, but not so much, say on pine. Sanding pine with 320 will do little to nothing for blotching, and you could run into adhesion problems. There are certain ways to best avoid blotching:
1. Apply the stain within a short time after sanding because of high or changing humidity.
2. Use fast-drying stains (acetone based for dyes, naptha for oil stains)
3. Use a wood conditioner. (thin coat of sealer, washcoat, thinned coat of shellac, glue size, pre-stain, conditioner or stain-controller product.)


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Even on pine if you sand to 320 grit the outcome will be better than relying on wood conditioner alone.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Even on pine if you sand to 320 grit the outcome will be better than relying on wood conditioner alone.


If you sand too much with 320, you could run into adhesion problems because the finish has nothing to bite to, or you may seal the wood so much that it will not take a finish, especially if you tell a newbie to finish sand raw wood with 320. Maple will still blotch because of the variation of hard/soft grain in various spots on the wood. There is no way to be consistent enough. But hey, if it works for you thats great. 

http://www.generalfinishes.co.uk/index.cfm?page=preparation


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> If you sand too much with 320, you could run into adhesion problems because the finish has nothing to bite to, or you may seal the wood so much that it will not take a finish, especially if you tell a newbie to finish sand raw wood with 320. Maple will still blotch because of the variation of hard/soft grain in various spots on the wood. There is no way to be consistent enough. But hey, if it works for you thats great.
> 
> http://www.generalfinishes.co.uk/index.cfm?page=preparation


320 grit isn't that fine that it would creates adhesion problems. I could see maybe if you sanded to a 1000 grit or finer causing adhesion problems with polyurethane but even with that grit wouldn't cause a problem with other finishes.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

This discussion has raged on for as long as people have been finishing wood. I did a blog post on this topic with my take on the subject for anyone who is interested. :smile:


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> This discussion has raged on for as long as people have been finishing wood. I did a blog post on this topic with my take on the subject for anyone who is interested. :smile:


Thats what I have learned as well Rick. In number 4 in your link, popping maple is what I had posted in another topic, or this one, I cant remember now, LOL. You apply a dye stain, sand with 320, then apply the same dye stain again and this will "pop" the grain.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

RandyReed said:


> Thats what I have learned as well Rick. In number 4 in your link, popping maple is what I had posted in another topic, or this one, I cant remember now, LOL. You apply a dye stain, sand with 320, then apply the same dye stain again and this will "pop" the grain.


You can also use 2 different colors. A darker color for the first application, most of which is sanded off except in the figure and then another color for the overall tone which adds color to the color already there. You can also use a cool color as the first color and a warm color for the second. This will give the illusion of more depth.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> You can also use 2 different colors. A darker color for the first application, most of which is sanded off except in the figure and then another color for the overall tone which adds color to the color already there. You can also use a cool color as the first color and a warm color for the second. This will give the illusion of more depth.


Yes, there are several ways to do it. I also like to spray a dye stain, block sand with 280, then apply a weak penetrating stain. That works great on cathedral cherry.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Rick Mosher said:


> This discussion has raged on for as long as people have been finishing wood. I did a blog post on this topic with my take on the subject for anyone who is interested. :smile:


Rick, I am interested and will enjoy reading this. Thanks.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I cannot catch a break on this project. I am now into my 7th round of stain testing.

I did an extensive re-sanding of one of the interior shelves of the china cabinet and applied 1 coat of recently received Charles Neil Pre-Color Conditioner and switched to a water based stain which I wiped on. I definitely did NOT get the result expected.

Although the blotching problem is much reduced it is not gone. Do I need 2 coats of pre-Color Conditioner? The Pre-Color Conditioner at least got the project to an acceptable level of blotching.

And the stain looked horrible so I wiped it back. It looks better but is way too light. Do I need 2 coats of stain? Should I switch back to an oil based stain?

I am at my wits end. Am I really missing something here?

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sometimes the dark blotches you can sand just the spots and put a much diluted stain on it to even out the blotches. 

The rest of it if you used an alcohol based dye stain extra diluted you could brush the dye on the lighter areas. It might take multiple coats and then dry brush it with some alcohol to blend it in.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

OK, lets see if we can get you right.
You should only need 1 coat of conditioner, then lightly scuff sand with 320 grit, *lightly*!
I would switch back to the oil base as its easier to work with..... water base is worse on blotch prone woods.

What about your color? Is it right or needs to be adjusted?


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sometimes the dark blotches you can sand just the spots and put a much diluted stain on it to even out the blotches.
> 
> The rest of it if you used an alcohol based dye stain extra diluted you could brush the dye on the lighter areas. It might take multiple coats and then dry brush it with some alcohol to blend it in.


 Steve, I will try the selective sanding approach to see if that helps even out the blotches. But it sounds like I have to abandon the water based stain approach. Thanks.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> OK, lets see if we can get you right.
> You should only need 1 coat of conditioner, then lightly scuff sand with 320 grit, *lightly*!
> I would switch back to the oil base as its easier to work with..... water base is worse on blotch prone woods.
> 
> What about your color? Is it right or needs to be adjusted?


 Randy, I did the drill with 320 grit sandpaper (the grain had clearly been raised) but perhaps I did not do that lightly enough.

I will switch back to an oil base stain.

The color is nowhere near the right intensity ... has to be way darker.

Lots more sanding and testing will happen today. Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve, I will try the selective sanding approach to see if that helps even out the blotches. But it sounds like I have to abandon the water based stain approach. Thanks.
> 
> Gary


Any blotch control product you have to tinker with it. I suspect the stuff you used needs to be a little bit more concentrated. Normally a water based stain doesn't blotch as bad as the oil based. Maybe you need to change brands and try something else.


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Any blotch control product you have to tinker with it. I suspect the stuff you used needs to be a little bit more concentrated. Normally a water based stain doesn't blotch as bad as the oil based. Maybe you need to change brands and try something else.


Yes I agree with steve. Curious though as to what your final grit was before you stained?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy, I did the drill with 320 grit sandpaper (the grain had clearly been raised) but perhaps I did not do that lightly enough.
> 
> I will switch back to an oil base stain.
> 
> ...


*ANY* stain is gonna blotch on blotch prone woods unless it contains a fast solvent. In my experience, if you use a water based stain on a medium to dark color, it will get darker in the blotch prone areas because it dives into the wood more than an oil based stain will. Water will bust the wood more in those softer areas. But, if you want to use water with transtint dyes, I might can give you a formula if you post what color board your trying to match. If you sprayed and tinted a stain using acetone, you could apply it without blotching. Then again, if you tinted a stain using ethanol, it will blotch like crazy. Water acts slightly faster than ethanol. Its always good to know your solvents and how they effect wood.

After applying a conditioner, block sand with 320 grit lightly.......by lightly I mean you may only need to do maybe 1 good pass with the block. Stay off edges! Conditioners do not put much build on the wood and can be easily sanded through if your not careful. Ive never tried Charles Neal's conditioner, but I suspect they all do the same thing. Most conditioners contain around 6% solids.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Any blotch control product you have to tinker with it. I suspect the stuff you used needs to be a little bit more concentrated. Normally a water based stain doesn't blotch as bad as the oil based. Maybe you need to change brands and try something else.


Steve, of all the stain testing that I have done with this piece this latest round using the Charles Neil Pre-Color Conditioner was the best.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CNYWOODS said:


> Yes I agree with steve. Curious though as to what your final grit was before you stained?


 I had sanded this latest test to 320 grit based on some advice from Steve awhile back in this thread.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> *ANY* stain is gonna blotch on blotch prone woods unless it contains a fast solvent. In my experience, if you use a water based stain on a medium to dark color, it will get darker in the blotch prone areas because it dives into the wood more than an oil based stain will. Water will bust the wood more in those softer areas. But, if you want to use water with transtint dyes, I might can give you a formula if you post what color board your trying to match. If you sprayed and tinted a stain using acetone, you could apply it without blotching. Then again, if you tinted a stain using ethanol, it will blotch like crazy. Water acts slightly faster than ethanol. Its always good to know your solvents and how they effect wood.
> 
> After applying a conditioner, block sand with 320 grit lightly.......by lightly I mean you may only need to do maybe 1 good pass with the block. Stay off edges! Conditioners do not put much build on the wood and can be easily sanded through if your not careful. Ive never tried Charles Neal's conditioner, but I suspect they all do the same thing. Most conditioners contain around 6% solids.


 Randy, I will do another complete test later today (sanding to 320 & conditioning) but will not do the staining till tomorrow morning. I can only hope that by lightly sanding after the conditioner is applied that I will get a better result.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy, I will do another complete test later today (sanding to 320 & conditioning) but will not do the staining till tomorrow morning. I can only hope that by lightly sanding after the conditioner is applied that I will get a better result.
> 
> Gary


When you prep the wood for staining, sand the raw wood with the grain with 180 grit real good.....apply the conditioner......when dry, scuff sand with 320 *lightly*, then move on to your stain. Its important that you do all your tests in the same manner to get the best results.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

you definitely need 2 coats with a water base colorant, per the instructions, oils often you can get by with only 1 here is a blog I wrote that explains in more detail as well as blotching in general https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


----------



## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> Have not figured out what YMMV stands for.

Your Mileage May Vary. Meaning what works for me may not work for all others.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

CharlesNeil said:


> you definitely need 2 coats with a water base colorant, per the instructions, oils often you can get by with only 1 here is a blog I wrote that explains in more detail as well as blotching in general https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


Good write up Charles. 

Thats another reason why I suggest using an oil based stain if hand applying.....easier to control. I think the main problem Gary is having is that he may be over sanding the conditioner.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

you want to just knock off the fuzz on the first coat, then after the second, you just basically wipe it with some 600 or so, just to knock any additional fuzz, but on highly blotch prone wood it definately need 2 coats.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> *ANY* stain is gonna blotch on blotch prone woods unless it contains a fast solvent. In my experience, if you use a water based stain on a medium to dark color, it will get darker in the blotch prone areas because it dives into the wood more than an oil based stain will. Water will bust the wood more in those softer areas. But, if you want to use water with transtint dyes, I might can give you a formula if you post what color board your trying to match. If you sprayed and tinted a stain using acetone, you could apply it without blotching. Then again, if you tinted a stain using ethanol, it will blotch like crazy. Water acts slightly faster than ethanol. Its always good to know your solvents and how they effect wood.
> 
> After applying a conditioner, block sand with 320 grit lightly.......by lightly I mean you may only need to do maybe 1 good pass with the block. Stay off edges! Conditioners do not put much build on the wood and can be easily sanded through if your not careful. Ive never tried Charles Neal's conditioner, but I suspect they all do the same thing. Most conditioners contain around 6% solids.


Randy, my major (should I say another major) test will happen tomorrow morning and I will be oh so careful with the sanding. Thanks.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> you definitely need 2 coats with a water base colorant, per the instructions, oils often you can get by with only 1 here is a blog I wrote that explains in more detail as well as blotching in general https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


Thank you Charles. I am going to switch back to oil based stain because I was unable to control the water based one.

I am very familiar with your blog and had read it a couple of times.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> you want to just knock off the fuzz on the first coat, then after the second, you just basically wipe it with some 600 or so, just to knock any additional fuzz, but on highly blotch prone wood it definately need 2 coats.


 Charles, part of my next test tomorrow morning will include 1 coat and 2 coats of your Pre-Color Conditioner so that I can see the impact.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

The (hopefully) final stain testing was done this morning:

* Oil based, water based and lacquer based stains were tested.
* Different grit levels (150 and 320) were tested.
* One coat and 2 coats of Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner were tested.

My conclusions are that the Pre-Color Conditioner works well and will allow me to only go to 150 grit sanding. I was in fact sanding too much with the 320 grit after apply the Pre-Color Conditioner so Randy called that one right.

My preferred depth of color comes from the water based stain but I had to dilute it with water to make applying it manageable and I had to apply 2 coats. I am not sure if I could duplicate that process on the overall piece. Any advice would be helpful.

My preferred stain to work with is oil based but one coat surely does not get me the proper color. I have a mixture of MinWax Red Mahogany (60%) and MinWax Jacobean (40%). I will try a second coat later today. I may also try darkening the color by adding Ebony to see if I can get to apply only 1 coat to get where I want.

In the last 3 years this is my 6th project involving birch / maple. Honestly it may be my last with this wood since every one of these projects has just been very, very difficult. Seven rounds of color testing taking over 10 hours seems completely out of line to me.

Thanks for the continuing help.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Yes, if you are hand applying, water base is not ideally the stain to work with, especially over a large piece. Water will give you more clarity and depth because essentially your using a dye stain.....trans tints. Again, as I said earlier, if you were spraying you could simply make an acetone based dye stain and apply WITHOUT using a pre conditioner. Acetone drys fast and will not blotch the wood. You might want to consider spraying if you finish and refinish furniture as it will make your life alot easier.

Adding Ebony will get the oil stain darker, but you may have to add a touch of red along with the black because the black will kill off the red slightly. If you go with too much ebony, the overall color will start to purple off and kill your yellow.....so then you would have to come back with some yellow some how. In saying this, you may be better to just wait and apply another coat if your color is right instead of trying to get it in 1 coat. Of course you will have to test. If you get it too dark, you can take some 0000 steel wool and "high light" the oil stain back slightly until you get the value of the color in an acceptable range.

Trial and error is part of color matching. Once you get the hang of it, you can match them alot quicker. Maple is lighter in color than birch, and if you were spraying, you could apply a sap stain to the maple getting it a little closer in color to the birch before staining the 2 different species. You could also shade before applying your final topcoat to dial in your final color.


----------



## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

FWIW, I think Minwax stains are junk. Very tough to get good depth of color out of them. If you can find Old Masters wiping stain somewhere near you (try a paint store that sells to pro's, just not sherwin williams. Usually the independent guys have it) I would give it a try. I discovered it by accident a few years ago and haven't used another brand since.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

BZawat said:


> FWIW, I think Minwax stains are junk. Very tough to get good depth of color out of them. If you can find Old Masters wiping stain somewhere near you (try a paint store that sells to pro's, just not sherwin williams. Usually the independent guys have it) I would give it a try. I discovered it by accident a few years ago and haven't used another brand since.


 Thanks. I will look locally but sure don't recall seeing it anywhere. Maybe it is time for me to switch brands.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> you definitely need 2 coats with a water base colorant, per the instructions, oils often you can get by with only 1 here is a blog I wrote that explains in more detail as well as blotching in general https://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/applying-dyes-stains-over-my-blotch-control-prestain/


Charles, if I need to apply only 1 coat of your Pre-Color Conditioner, can I proceed to stain after letting it dry for 1 hour? Or is letting it dry overnight better?

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Its hard to get depth out of any oil stain.......

Old Masters is good. You can get it at Walmart.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Charles, if I need to apply only 1 coat of your Pre-Color Conditioner, can I proceed to stain after letting it dry for 1 hour? Or is letting it dry overnight better?
> 
> Gary


1 hour is fine as long as its dry before you scuff sand with 320....then you can proceed with your next step.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

as stated Often you only need one coat if using OIL based stains, however I would let it dry at least 6 hours, before staining, Longer doesn't hurt either. If water base colorant 6 hours after the 2nd coat is a minimum , over night is best.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Yes, if you are hand applying, water base is not ideally the stain to work with, especially over a large piece. Water will give you more clarity and depth because essentially your using a dye stain.....trans tints. Again, as I said earlier, if you were spraying you could simply make an acetone based dye stain and apply WITHOUT using a pre conditioner. Acetone drys fast and will not blotch the wood. You might want to consider spraying if you finish and refinish furniture as it will make your life alot easier.
> 
> Adding Ebony will get the oil stain darker, but you may have to add a touch of red along with the black because the black will kill off the red slightly. If you go with too much ebony, the overall color will start to purple off and kill your yellow.....so then you would have to come back with some yellow some how. In saying this, you may be better to just wait and apply another coat if your color is right instead of trying to get it in 1 coat. Of course you will have to test. If you get it too dark, you can take some 0000 steel wool and "high light" the oil stain back slightly until you get the value of the color in an acceptable range.
> 
> Trial and error is part of color matching. Once you get the hang of it, you can match them alot quicker. Maple is lighter in color than birch, and if you were spraying, you could apply a sap stain to the maple getting it a little closer in color to the birch before staining the 2 different species. You could also shade before applying your final topcoat to dial in your final color.


 Randy, I appreciate your color guidance. When I was doing projects for myself I was easy to please on color choice. For customers sometimes it is not quite so easy. I am so tired of testing but I will continue.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Its hard to get depth out of any oil stain.......
> 
> Old Masters is good. You can get it at Walmart.


 Sure cannot get Old Masters at local Walmart (1 on Ontario, 2 in Michigan). Next trip farther away I will get some. Thanks.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> as stated Often you only need one coat if using OIL based stains, however I would let it dry at least 6 hours, before staining, Longer doesn't hurt either. If water base colorant 6 hours after the 2nd coat is a minimum , over night is best.


 Thanks, Charles. I am eager to stain and see if I have finally solved my problem. But I am more eager to get it right so I will wait longer.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> as stated Often you only need one coat if using OIL based stains, however I would let it dry at least 6 hours, before staining, Longer doesn't hurt either. If water base colorant 6 hours after the 2nd coat is a minimum , over night is best.


Charles, one more question if I may. Sorry but I just have to make sure I get this right.

I use denatured alcohol or mineral spirits to clean off my sanding sawdust. Will either of those leave any residue that would interfere with your Pre-Color Conditioner?

Thank you.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Sure cannot get Old Masters at local Walmart (1 on Ontario, 2 in Michigan). Next trip farther away I will get some. Thanks.
> 
> Gary


Hummm. I don't know if Canada is different. You can get Old Masters in North Carolina and Virginia Walmarts, at least the ones I've been too. 
I think you will be ok with what you have.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Charles, one more question if I may. Sorry but I just have to make sure I get this right.
> 
> I use denatured alcohol or mineral spirits to clean off my sanding sawdust. Will either of those leave any residue that would interfere with your Pre-Color Conditioner?
> 
> ...


Gary, Charles doesn't come here very often. I can assure you alcohol or mineral spirits won't affect your finish. Mineral spirits might take an hour or so to dry in cold weather.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Hummm. I don't know if Canada is different. You can get Old Masters in North Carolina and Virginia Walmarts, at least the ones I've been too.
> I think you will be ok with what you have.


 Randy, it must be this project that is different. Perhaps it is jinxed. I actually found a local retailer who carries Old Masters so I called to make sure they were open. About 20 seconds later they called back and said that they did carry Old Masters but they were doing a store remodel and it was all unavailable till next week. Go figure.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Gary, Charles doesn't come here very often. I can assure you alcohol or mineral spirits won't affect your finish. Mineral spirits might take an hour or so to dry in cold weather.


 Thanks, Steve. I had applied the Pre-Color Conditioner hoping/ assuming that all would be fine.

Maybe, just maybe, the test tomorrow morning will be the last one.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> Randy, it must be this project that is different. Perhaps it is jinxed. I actually found a local retailer who carries Old Masters so I called to make sure they were open. About 20 seconds later they called back and said that they did carry Old Masters but they were doing a store remodel and it was all unavailable till next week. Go figure.
> 
> Gary


Sounds like your luck is about like mine........

I got to where I use a new 4" bristle brush to remove sanding dust. Works just as good and saves you money from not having to use your solvents. Alot of people dont like tack cloths, but I use them on darker pieces, and I dont use alot of pressure when using them. Then I follow up by dusting it off again with my brush. When I use solvenst to remove dust, I always use mineral spirits. You can blow on it and watch it dry.


----------



## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Here is something that might be helpful.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit. 

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental. 

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearance. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must. 

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion. 

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The finish left by the sizing machine determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Gary ,

Steve is correct, you will be fine, just be sure the MS has fully evaporated, Alcohol evaporates even faster , and besides, Alcohol and water mixes well, I have tested this on several occasions,  LOL


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

HowardAcheson said:


> Here is something that might be helpful.
> 
> Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.
> 
> ...


Howie, this is of course very helpful. The particular item that catches my attention and that I will start to do is the final hand sanding in the direction of the grain with the final grit used.

Thank you.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

CharlesNeil said:


> Gary ,
> 
> Steve is correct, you will be fine, just be sure the MS has fully evaporated, Alcohol evaporates even faster , and besides, Alcohol and water mixes well, I have tested this on several occasions,  LOL


 Thanks, Charles. The humor was a bonus.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I think I have finally reached the point where I can proceed with this project. In my view the ugly blotching shown on the left in picture below has disappeared mainly due to Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner. I still need to apply one more coat of stain to get the depth of color that I want. But then it is all downhill from there.

Thank you to everyone who helped me through this, especially Steve and Randy and Charles. This was not a fun ride.

Gary


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

GAF said:


> I think I have finally reached the point where I can proceed with this project. In my view the ugly blotching shown on the left in picture below has disappeared mainly due to Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner. I still need to apply one more coat of stain to get the depth of color that I want. But then it is all downhill from there.
> 
> Thank you to everyone who helped me through this, especially Steve and Randy and Charles. This was not a fun ride.
> 
> Gary


:thumbsup:


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Yes the project that won't give me a break just keeps on giving me grief.

The customer wanted ebonizing of the detailed outlines / carvings on the front of the china cabinet. I did the ebonizing with TransTint black dye. When I tried to condition the wood with Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner it made the dye run and caused a mess. So I tried conditioning the wood with DNA diluted Zinsser SealCoat and the same thing happened.

So I stained the wood without conditioning and it looks unacceptable to me.

I need some advice on how to condition the wood and do the ebonizing. Perhaps the answer is as simple as doing the ebonizing with black oil based stain that will not react to either of the conditioners that I tried. Thank you.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It would be easier to seal the panels and then used a gel stain to ebonize the detail work. You could just brush the gell stain in the groove with a narrow brush and any gotten on the face just wipe it off.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It would be easier to seal the panels and then used a gel stain to ebonize the detail work. You could just brush the gell stain in the groove with a narrow brush and any gotten on the face just wipe it off.


Steve, clearly you have a way steadier hand than I do. When I ebonize I usually get enough on the face that I have to sand again which would remove the conditioner.

Your feedback indicates to "just wipe it off" but I think it would still show. Perhaps I am missing something.

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sometimes I have to dampen a rag with mineral spirits but the excess you get on the surface should wipe off. You have to do it after you put a coat of sealer on first.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

You would do the ebonizing after applying the color to the entire piece.

After you get the color matched, you would then simply apply a sealer, when dry apply a black wipe stain or black glaze (which is best), then wipe off the black wipe stain or glaze which should leave the black color in the carvings to get the piece contrast. If by chance you have some black on unwanted areas, you can simply do as steve said and dampen a rag with mineral spirits and carefully wipe off the unwanted stain or you can take 0000 steel wool or a red scotch brite and wipe off the excess. If using steel wool, be sure to take a clean bristle brush and clean off any area you used the steel wool AFTER the black stain/glaze has dried. Steel wool sometimes leaves tiny particles behind which could rust under the finish.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sometimes I have to dampen a rag with mineral spirits but the excess you get on the surface should wipe off. You have to do it after you put a coat of sealer on first.


Thanks, Steve. I will try this today.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> You would do the ebonizing after applying the color to the entire piece.
> 
> After you get the color matched, you would then simply apply a sealer, when dry apply a black wipe stain or black glaze (which is best), then wipe off the black wipe stain or glaze which should leave the black color in the carvings to get the piece contrast. If by chance you have some black on unwanted areas, you can simply do as steve said and dampen a rag with mineral spirits and carefully wipe off the unwanted stain or you can take 0000 steel wool or a red scotch brite and wipe off the excess. If using steel wool, be sure to take a clean bristle brush and clean off any area you used the steel wool AFTER the black stain/glaze has dried. Steel wool sometimes leaves tiny particles behind which could rust under the finish.


 Randy, thanks for a different approach than I have been using.

I will likely try both your approach and the one suggested by Steve. I am so close to finishing the staining of this piece that I just want to get it done and behind me.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

On second thought since you work with poly you could also do this with some black enamel.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I yet another question related to this china cabinet project.

I understand that blotching on end grain is generally worse but the situation here seems extreme even after using Charles Neil's pre-Color Conditioner (only 1 coat, not 2).

Should I simply sand again and apply 2 coats of conditioner? Or are there better ways to address this?

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The top picture doesn't appear to have been completely stripped. I think the blotches there are still the old finish. 

The bottom picture looks to me like the wood needs to be sanded to a finer grit.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The top picture doesn't appear to have been completely stripped. I think the blotches there are still the old finish.
> 
> The bottom picture looks to me like the wood needs to be sanded to a finer grit.


Thanks, Steve. I guess I know what I will be doing first thing in the morning. Bad refinishing on my part.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

This project is coming to a nice ending and the customer is delighted with the result below even though no top coating has yet been done. So it only gets better from here.

One more question has arisen.

She may want to convert the china cabinet to become a liquor cabinet and wants to line the 3 interior shelves with glass. That seems to me to be an expensive solution. I will be applying 2 or 3 water based top coats on the interior including the shelves.

Will these top coats be enough to protect the shelves if this becomes a liquor cabinet? Or are there are suggestions to provide better protection?

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think the biggest problem with making that a liquor cabinet is the shelves are too long to hold the weight. Then to put glass on the shelves, is the back put on with screws so you can insert the glass on the shelves? You won't be able to get the glass shelves in through the doors unless you make the glass in pieces. The finish would be enough to protect the shelves anyway.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I think the biggest problem with making that a liquor cabinet is the shelves are too long to hold the weight. Then to put glass on the shelves, is the back put on with screws so you can insert the glass on the shelves? You won't be able to get the glass shelves in through the doors unless you make the glass in pieces. The finish would be enough to protect the shelves anyway.


Some good heads up ideas here, Steve. The back is not removable so the glass could not be inserted that way. It could only be put in through the front as a single piece if I did it right now before I final assemble everything.

The weight issue could be a show stopper concern. Only the bottom shelf could be better braced and supported than it is and I will do that before final assembly in the next couple of days.

I agree with you that the finish would provide sufficient protection. I will just put an extra 1 or 2 top coats on the bottom shelf.

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Of course I have just one more question.

The lattice behind the glass has been a complete pain to deal with ... sanding and staining and now top coating.

I applied a water based top coat by brush and made a bit of a mess. So I sprayed (aerosol can) the second water based top coat.

It does not look good at all so I want to wipe on a couple of coats of oil based poly.

I assume such a small surface area inside the china cabinet with oil based poly won't cause an odor issue. Is that a safe assumption?

How long should I wait before wiping on oil based poly?

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Just one more question huh. OK Columbo here it is.

As long as you scuff the finish you have you can apply oil based poly over the top. I would wait a few days and let the water based finish dry pretty good first. There will be some offgassing with the finish for a few weeks. If it's going to your customer right away you might tell them to leave the doors open as much as possible to let the fumes out. It should go away in a month anyway. If you would use Woodchasics poly from Sherwin Williams there seems to be less problem with offgassing.


----------



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Just one more question huh. OK Columbo here it is.
> 
> As long as you scuff the finish you have you can apply oil based poly over the top. I would wait a few days and let the water based finish dry pretty good first. There will be some offgassing with the finish for a few weeks. If it's going to your customer right away you might tell them to leave the doors open as much as possible to let the fumes out. It should go away in a month anyway. If you would use Woodchasics poly from Sherwin Williams there seems to be less problem with offgassing.


Steve, I like the humor. Loved that Columbo series.

I am still at least a week away from completing the top coating so I will let the water based top coat dry fully before wiping on the oil poly.

Thanks.

Gary


----------



## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> What you have to understand about these woods that blotch is the wood naturally has hard and soft places in the wood. Therefore the soft places absorb more of the stain than the harder places. Sanding to a finer grit helps harden the surface to more uniform consistency so it is less likely to blotch so these woods should always be sanded finer. Still the wood conditioner is needed. I have some of the Charles Neil blotch control but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. A lot of folks here have nice things to say about it though. Myself I have always used a 50/50 mixture of linseed oil and mineral spirits. With this concoction it's better to allow it to dry overnight.


Steve, do you use raw linseed oil or BLO?


----------



## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

And do you use varasol as the mineral spirit? Pure mineral spirits are hard to find here...


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never actually seen raw linseed oil anywhere so boiled linseed oil is what I use. Whether you use mineral spirits or paint thinner they are so close alike any would work fine. The only exception is I wouldn't use any low odor solvent such as Varasol. I haven't used that particular brand but I have bought three other brands that ruined the finish I mixed with low odor paint thinner and I don't buy any anymore. I had to throw them away, they were not even usable for clean up.


----------



## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks Steve. Will be trying your mixture on a desk I'm working on.


----------

