# One bowl adze



## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

At the risk of being homeless, i.e., getting kicked out, I'm considering starting another hobby-bowl carving. And should I actually carve a decent one, I might gain a reprieve.

My question is: If you could only have one bowl adze, what size would it be? I probably would start with medium sized bowls, 9-12 inches or so.

I've looked on the internet and there seems to be no particular sizing method. Some are listed as small, medium, etc. Some are in inches, metric...

Any suggestions, not only to size, would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

John


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

That must be a large bowl or a small adze, I haven't seen anyone carve a bowl with an adze. When you do we would love to see some pictures. Do you have any pictures of the ones you have already made, it really sounds interesting, I love carving.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

In the Pacific Northwest, feast bowls are carved commonly with an elbow adze. I suggest that you have a look at the blades that Gregg & Charlie produce. I have the Baby Sitka and the D adze.
Most of the woods are 1/2 log to be useful. Best guess, if you weigh the wood, about 10-15% remains as the dish!
Kestrel Tool


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

BigJim said:


> That must be a large bowl or a small adze, I haven't seen anyone carve a bowl with an adze. When you do we would love to see some pictures. Do you have any pictures of the ones you have already made, it really sounds interesting, I love carving.


Jim, I'm really at a loss here. I'm not referring to an adze like you'd shape ship timbers or rail ties with, but one that has a rounded cutting edge, and is about the size of a hatchet. It is for hollowing small items, primarily bowls. Do a search for "bowl adze". And if this was tongue-in-cheek, it went right over my head. Sorry.

If I ever get one made, I'll post pictures.

Thanks, 

John

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_"Reality shows seem to be celebrating an ever coarsening, disintegrating, dysfunctional society. There was a time when we aspired to be better..."

Robert Dewitt_


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> In the Pacific Northwest, feast bowls are carved commonly with an elbow adze. I suggest that you have a look at the blades that Gregg & Charlie produce. I have the Baby Sitka and the D adze.
> Most of the woods are 1/2 log to be useful. Best guess, if you weigh the wood, about 10-15% remains as the dish!
> Kestrel Tool


Thanks. I will look at these. Of course, in contemplating this, it occurred to me that I could forge my own-another hobby. 

Enjoy your Thanksgiving,

John

_______________________________________________________

_"There is nothing stopping me except fear and common sense. I'll get over both."

Unknown_


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry John, for some reason I was envisioning a large adze. I just looked up a scorp type bowl adze and they are really nice, not bad priced either.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/bowl-adze

Carving a bowl like that does interest me, I watched a couple a fellows carve one on youtube a while back, I don't know why I didn't think about the bowl adze when you posted, old timers ya know. LOL

I am looking for a curved knife for spoon making, I have been wanting to make a dipper/ladle for a while and now that winter is setting in will be a good time.

I have made several kitchen utensils which have come in really handy. I am looking forward to seeing your work.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Before I found bladesmiths like Kestrel, North Bay Forge and Cariboo, I understood that Pacific Northwest native carvers made their adze blades from pieces of leaf spring. I know now that many still do.
Those same bladesmiths make a wide variety of crooked knives which work well for spoon carving. The other source is the farrier's crooked knife. I've revised the bevels to 12 degrees on maybe a dozen of those, you even get a little scorp at the tip!


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

BigJim said:


> Sorry John, for some reason I was envisioning a large adze. I just looked up a scorp type bowl adze and they are really nice, not bad priced either.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/bhp/bowl-adze
> 
> ...


If I ever make one worth showing, I'll post it. You know, I had to look up "scorp". I only recently began seeing this term. Interesting tool.

John


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> Before I found bladesmiths like Kestrel, North Bay Forge and Cariboo, I understood that Pacific Northwest native carvers made their adze blades from pieces of leaf spring. I know now that many still do.
> Those same bladesmiths make a wide variety of crooked knives which work well for spoon carving. The other source is the farrier's crooked knife. I've revised the bevels to 12 degrees on maybe a dozen of those, you even get a little scorp at the tip!


I've heard of people making woodworking tools from old lawnmower blades, also. Supposedly, they have good steel. 

As I said, too many hobbies, but...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The real deal is that Kestrel (Gregg & Charlie) are bladesmiths. They make whole tools and they sell just blades. I want those guys for their bladesmithing skills, not to waste time sanding wood.

NorthBayForge won't sell just blades. Caribou will sell blades and do any sort of custom smithing but you pay for their expertise, big time.

I bought both a Baby Sitka blade and a D-adze blade from Kestrel. Handles are no big deal. They are wonderful, relaxing tools for rough carving work. Charlie claims you can texture a surface with either but that's gotta be 50 yrs experience.

Most all of my crooked knives are farrier's hoof knives. Bevelled to 12 degrees and busted out of the original handles to be rehafted in PacNW design handles that I glue up from rosewood & mahogany scrap.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

blacksmithing has always held my interest, especially in making blades and tools.

I will look into the farrier's hoof knives, that sounds like the way to go.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

OK BJ. I have built crooked knives from Mora (Sweden) #171 and #188, Diamond (Taiwan) #271, Ukal/Supervet (France) and Hall (Canada) Knife and forge.

Ukal and Hall have wonderfully hard steel. Mora and Diamond are softer but I used them for years.
Although it's greater cost, buy a left & right pair, makes following wood grain so much easier.
Starting with a chainsaw file, I revised all the bevels to 12 degrees. While 25 might be OK for hooves, just too big to carve with.

Kestrel blades are traditional: double edged and pointed. I have 4 of different sweeps made by Crescent Knife Works in Vancouver, BC. They are marketed through Lee Valley.

The advantage to a farrier's knife is first, the little scorp at the tip. Second, you can switch hands and push for control on the dull spine of the single-edges blades.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Robson Valley said:


> OK BJ. I have built crooked knives from Mora (Sweden) #171 and #188, Diamond (Taiwan) #271, Ukal/Supervet (France) and Hall (Canada) Knife and forge.
> 
> Ukal and Hall have wonderfully hard steel. Mora and Diamond are softer but I used them for years.
> Although it's greater cost, buy a left & right pair, makes following wood grain so much easier.
> ...


Thanks RV, I appreciate that, that does sound like the way to go.

By the way, how is it over on Wood Carver's Illustrated now? I have only been there a couple of times since they went down, that use to be a fantastic site.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

My weekly bread is on the rise. WCI has slowed to a crawl, like molasses in January.They likely bought the worst version of the vBulliten software possible.

All my crooked knives are surface hafted, PacNW native style. That's good. I tipped the blades 15 degrees so I don't have to roll my old wrists quite so far! Lengths and boat-tail so you can get your thumb up there for wrist action leverage. 

Next is size. In a fist grip & palm up, the tips of your second and third fingers should just touch the fat ball part of your thumb. That's the "Kestrel Constant". For me, the handle blank should start 7/8" square but I can make do with 3/4". 1" is too fat. I hardly make any effort to round off the handles as the flat sides tell me the exact orientation of the blade. Clean it up, taper the nose & tail, round off the edges = ready for a blade.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks RV, I just looked at a few on ebay, they are cheap enough but I think I will try to make one myself, I just need more directions yet. I saw where you posted on WCI about the knives.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I can spin a thread about building crooked knives in the PacNW style. I spent some years learning what to do. If this goes beyond you and me, I'll do it. Honestly, with a knife in each hand, both sharper than new razor blades, a day of carving is a pleasure.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Man I hope someone else chimes in and is interested to see how they are made.


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## Hwood (Oct 21, 2011)

Well I just came across this Jim so chime chime. I have looked at them before and wonder how well they work. All the free form stuff I have made so far is chain saw then what ever I can use after that which is mostly grinder attachments. I am curious if the tools talked about cut smooth or tears the wood often. I probably know the answer to that question and, it depends..depends on the wood and the grain in relation to the chop.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

My kind of knives will give you glassy surfaces. It is not very difficult to whack a couple of farrier's blades and create useful carving knives.
Lemme see if I can attach a pic of most (!) of what I use.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The ball is in your court, sir. What can I help you to do?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Robson Valley said:


> My kind of knives will give you glassy surfaces. It is not very difficult to whack a couple of farrier's blades and create useful carving knives.
> Lemme see if I can attach a pic of most (!) of what I use.


I just drooled on my keyboard, those are some really nice knives, thanks for sharing.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I must point out that the original handles on farrier's hoof knives are just fine the way they are.
I changed most of them because I wanted to explore the values of the PacNW style native carving tools.

So, I spent part of a day studying those knife designs in the collection of the University of British Columbia
Museum of Anthropology. If you can actually go there, plan for 2 days. The Rose Garden parkade is
just across the street, the cafeteria is very good. Please realize that 2/3 of the collection is in the drawers below the showcases.
You are welcome to open them all but the MOA doesn't mention much about that in their brochures.

If you Google UBC/MOA, there are some 44,000 objects in the online collection that you can search.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Robson Valley said:


> I must point out that the original handles on farrier's hoof knives are just fine the way they are.
> I changed most of them because I wanted to explore the values of the PacNW style native carving tools.
> 
> So, I spent part of a day studying those knife designs in the collection of the University of British Columbia
> ...


That is a whole lot of information and more than one can see in a day. It is very interesting though.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Apologies for derailing the OP's question.

The best bladesmiths to look at are Gregg and Charlie at Kestrel Tool.com.
For the rough-out, you need a full-sized Sitka elbow adze with either a "lip" or a "gutter" shape to the edge. I have a full-sized Stubai carver's adze, about a 7/75, to do the equivalent.
Next, you need a J-blade crooked knife to do all the finishing carving. There's a good picture of Charlie doing just that.
They sell blades, it takes time but making your own handles is not difficult.

In my case, having the Stubai, I went for a Baby Sitka with a traditional straight blade profile. 
This is meant more for shaping the outsides of carvings, as is the D adze.
Neither one of them is particularly useful for the inside curves like bowls and dishes.

If you have the hots to make something, a truck leaf spring blade is good steel.
At the end of the day, buying blades from competent bladesmiths assures you of useful profiles.

North Bay Forge sells adze blades but they don't sell knife blades, just complete knives.
I wanted to make my own handles to get the size/diameter comfortable for my hands.


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## screaminghollow (Jan 3, 2016)

Here on the east coast, colonial style "trenchers" have a certain demand. They are oblong wooden bowls from about 10 inches to 15 inches wide and from 18 inches to 30 inches long with integral wooden grip handles on each end. (I have been pondering making a special router device to carve some by machine.) Some historical sites and some reenactors want usable copies, rather than chance ruining a rare expensive original. One of my relatives collected antique treen ware for decades. When she passed, in the 1990's, her stuff was sold at a fancy auction house and her collection of trenchers brought the most, with the carved cookie molds and butter molds running a close second. The trenchers just did not often survive and were quite rare. Even with some cracks, and crude mends, they brought good money.


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## screaminghollow (Jan 3, 2016)

here is a picture of one from an auction house site

http://image.artfact.com/housePhotos/soulis/98/264998/H1081-L11320474.jpg


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks, SH. Interesting history. Tell me: do you recall any of the trenchers having any sort of carved designs on the outsides or were they all very plain?

Here in the Pacific Northwest, native celebrations involved enormous feasts which might go on for a week. Many people. The "feast dishes" are very much like the design you show but western red cedar and slightly thicker walls.

If I wanted to start one tomorrow, I have 2 choices:
1. Rough out the bowl void with an adze, the lip or gutter profiles are essential. This is work.
2. Using a drill press, make a rough pattern of Forstner bit holes and bash out the webbing. This is fast and fun.
3. Use a hand saw and an adze to shape and thin the outside. More slow & careful work.

In both cases, I'd be using a PacNW style crooked knife (many profiles) to clean up both the inside and outside for finish.


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## screaminghollow (Jan 3, 2016)

I have only seen a few originals. They were usually plain with no embellishment. Which is a bit odd considering the way other wooden ware was decorated in this area. I did see one that had been painted. the others were plain. I don't even know the normal use they were put to. Whether they were a substitute for a basket, or like a large serving plate for stews etc.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Huh. Thanks (for the lack of speculation.) I wonder how they were used. Maybe ancient newspaper and magazine archives might have some engravings in advertising?
The complete lack of decoration might point to an ultra conservative, mainly secular origin. Thicken the walls and scale them up = Haida/PacNW native feast dishes.

I wonder aabout these sorts of lost things because I inherited a small totem pole. For some reason, it was terribly important for me to have the pole. 
I spent time over several years trying to learn more as anyone who might have had direct answers is dead.
The carving skill and paint is extraordinary (not a hack for the tourist trade.) 
Certainly mid coast (Kwakwaka'wakw style) and carved before 1954.

Who is carving the trencher replicas? Can they explain any of the history?


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## screaminghollow (Jan 3, 2016)

the most information I could find about "trenchers" is about the same use as the indians. Sometimes referred to as Indian Bowls, however, they were used pre-colonies in England. 

A rather good discourse here. See the 7th paragraph about trenchers:

http://historiccookingschool.com/colonial-meals/


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> Apologies for derailing the OP's question.
> 
> The best bladesmiths to look at are..


Something happened and I didn't get emails notifying me of these later posts. Been reading them now and although they're "derailed" (I used to be a railway brakeman, so I can relate to that term), I've certainly been interested in the bowl discussions. 

Thanks,

John


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Just got a wonderfully long and detailed PM from my British aquaintance, he's an antique tool collector.
As a communal feeding trough, the "trencher" certainly has no British history.

Instead, pole lathes and water-powered wood working shops could turn wooden dishes and bowls very easily.
And they did.
Modern dishes and bowls may be replicas of the medieval wooden ones!

But, explore bowl making with an adze. It certainly can be done.
I've started one, a western red cedar block about 24" x 12" x 8".


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> ...But, explore bowl making with an adze. It certainly can be done.
> I've started one, a western red cedar block about 24" x 12" x 8".


I've been sidetracked with other chores, lawn, garden, etc. but intend to get back to this as soon as possible.

John


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah, it's summer. I need to go outside. Grape vines all badly frosted off this year. The back lawn is a jungle (been away).
Need to try to finish a big carving before mid June (good luck!).
Maybe we best drop this and hook up again in the autumn?
I want to be a part of the work and talk here.


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

I just looked at "bowl adze" on E-Bay to see what the heck they were.
Holy smokes. For something I've never heard of before, there's a LOT of them on there.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

From several years of experience with a Stubai carving adze, the hardest thing of all is your striking accuracy.
Watch a farrier or a blacksmith at their forge. See if you can mimic what they're doing. I'm a klutz.

Not sure how productive it is but I do practice with an adze, just making chips.
My right hand strikes are no better but a different shape from my left hand strikes.
Western Red Cedar is abundant and cheap here so I never think that I'm wasting wood.
I do betteer with a D-adze than with an elbow adze (both in PacNW design shapes.)

If the adze is "carving sharp," you need to be mindful of overstrikes and misses.
The only thing to stop it is a bone in your leg.


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> From several years of experience with a Stubai carving adze, the hardest thing of all is your striking accuracy.
> Watch a farrier or a blacksmith at their forge. See if you can mimic what they're doing. I'm a klutz.
> 
> Not sure how productive it is but I do practice with an adze, just making chips.
> ...


It may be folly, but I'm going to try making one. I have several old lawn mower blades, and a rudimentary forge, as well as a wire welder at my business. An old blacksmith, now long gone, once showed me a thing or two about tempering metal, so I thought I'd give it a try.

John


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Go for it. Take a long look at the differences between "lip" and "gutter" edge profiles.
Kestrel Tool has worked with big-shot native carvers for decades. Blade profiles that everybody wants.
A couple of east coast bladesmiths even admit that they have copied the Kestrel designs.
Bunch of "wannabe's if you ask me. Go to the source.

Since you have the steel, you might as well make several different ones.
Kestrel Tool sells a 12 page booklet called "Adzes & Ends."
I don't have a spare or I'd send you one.
The booklet explains everything about hafting an adze blade, Holm Constant and all.


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## woodciro (Aug 23, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> Go for it...Kestrel Tool sells a 12 page booklet called "Adzes & Ends."
> I don't have a spare or I'd send you one.
> The booklet explains everything about hafting an adze blade, Holm Constant and all.


Thanks, I'll see if I can get the booklet ordered.

John


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## holtzdreher (Jul 20, 2016)

The woodwrightshop did an episode with bowl carvving using a bowl adz and gouge. Check it out here: http://www.pbs.org/video/2365554475/


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