# mind fu%&er



## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

Ok guys was wanting to know if anyone can help me with this joint in the table in the pic. Its got me thinking hard and I'm stumped at the moment I can get 2 of them close but I'm not even sure that they are right. And if you do know the answer try and keep it in lamans terms because I'm not a mathmatician


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

ruthless1 said:


> Ok guys was wanting to know if anyone can help me with this joint in the table in the pic. Its got me thinking hard and I'm stumped at the moment I can get 2 of them close but I'm not even sure that they are right. And if you do know the answer try and keep it in lamans terms because I'm not a mathmatician


Thanks for any help that anyone can provide


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## Calzone (May 15, 2012)

Give me a moment, and I'll draft up some plans you can put to scale

EDIT: okay, so here's the gist of the joint. After observation, there are of course three pieces.









Looks pretty complex, right?
The Yellow Block has No Dados in it.
The Red block has one Dado in it.
The Blue Block has two Dados in it.

You can see them better moved apart in this picture









Now that blue block is the complex one, and right now it just looks like a bunch of lines, so I put it at a better angle so you can see that it is one dado halfway through the piece, just like the Red Block, but it has another dado running perpendicular to the other dado, exact same dimensions, only offset One Half the thickness of whatever the blocks are. 










It should be noted that all the dados are the width of the blocks, and they are 1/2 as deep as the width of the blocks. Also, the legs of the table are put at 45 Degree compound miter angles. (45 degrees on the X and Y axis) Same with the top.

When you make all these cuts, you should focus on the joint in the center with the dados, and give yourself some room to figure out the dimensions when you make the angled cuts on the bottom and top.

I did not dimension them because that is for you to do. I cannot dimension a table without knowing the proper scales and any other information about the table. All I did was Digest the joint so you know what to do.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Looks like it all under control. Let us know how it goes.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## J Thomas (Aug 14, 2012)

That's a great "dissection" Calzone!! Wish I could get Sketchup to work on this 'puter.


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

OK first off thank you for the simple break down it helped big time ...... Now this is how far I got. I cannot of get 45° for the feet and tops to work anyway I do it....am I missing something very simple?? I would like to think that I know how to cut a compound miter.








So there it is whats happening??


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## Stodg73 (Jul 10, 2012)

The bottom of the legs need to be longer, in order to make the joint work. They need to be about 12" longer.


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

Without the risk of sounding completely stupid, but how will making the legs longer help the joint is locked in place with itself so the angle is going to be the same no matter how long the legs are. In the above pic of the original table the legs seam to be the same distance on top and bottom


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Interesting joint challenge. I suspect there is a rabbit in all three pieces but if this is working for you go for it! To level the botom I would use a variation of Christopher Schwartz' method here.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/video-level-the-feet-of-a-chair-or-sawbench


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## Calzone (May 15, 2012)

it might be 60* After looking at the model. It's doing that weird thing Compound miters do where the second angle effects the first one.
But it should be 45*...

Give me a while and I'll think of the problem, and if I can't, I will do some tests with some scraps tomorrow.


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## RogerC (Oct 15, 2012)

I really have nothing to add here because I'm only an amateur with no complex joinery experience (or even moderate joinery experience), but I just wanted to say how awesome you guys are. This looks pretty complicated, and Calzone, you seem to have your mind wrapped around it already. Impressive.


BTW, I would've handled it by buying the table :laughing:


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

For all your angles to be the same I think your timbers would need to pass thru the same cube of space. This way you would have equal angles for your compound mitre such as 45° x 45°. 

If the timber slightly goes to the side of each other and not thru a central cube the size of your timber cross section then I believe your angle would be something like 44° x 46°. 

The lengths of your legs if not going central as I have referred would have slightly different lengths each side of the joint. One side should be longer by the amount of the offset. They should all be identical to each other in length and angles regardless of where the centre joint lines up. 

Hope this makes sense.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

Yes it does make sense..... Now for me to put your words into action is the problem... BTW you are the man!! That sketch up was awesome first try I did it. You don't think that at the intersection of dadoes that they could be slightly skewed or angled A bit?? When you set the mock up on its points before you try to angle the legs it wants to twist in the middle where all of the spines of the cube are on the outside, if that makes any sense. Anyway if and when you have time and you still fell like mocking it up you will see what I mean. If you don't thanks again for all the Info you where a great help


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

RogerC said:


> I really have nothing to add here because I'm only an amateur with no complex joinery experience (or even moderate joinery experience), but I just wanted to say how awesome you guys are. This looks pretty complicated, and Calzone, you seem to have your mind wrapped around it already. Impressive.
> 
> BTW, I would've handled it by buying the table :laughing:


This is a favor for my uncle which he had a guy at work ask him if he could do it. ....so he sent it to me because I have a garage to work in full of tools whereas he lives in Florida in apartments. But I couldn't figure it out but I've had problems before and the guys on all these forums are more than happy to pass on info......the WWW is awesome for that.... What the hell did we do before that ????? Oh yeah make mistakes and throw stuff lol


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## Calzone (May 15, 2012)

ruthless1 said:


> Yes it does make sense..... Now for me to put your words into action is the problem... BTW you are the man!! That sketch up was awesome first try I did it. You don't think that at the intersection of dadoes that they could be slightly skewed or angled A bit?? When you set the mock up on its points before you try to angle the legs it wants to twist in the middle where all of the spines of the cube are on the outside, if that makes any sense. Anyway if and when you have time and you still fell like mocking it up you will see what I mean. If you don't thanks again for all the Info you where a great help


Yeah I get what you mean. You want to put the Dados at an angle to make the inside base tighter, right?
As well as the triangle wants to apply shear pressure just on how it's setup. That's going to happen.
I'm starting to think there's some kinda fastener in there to hold it together from the shear.

And it's not a problem, I'm just glad to help other people. I just keep thinking about the leg though and why it doesn't situate properly.


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

Calzone said:


> Yeah I get what you mean. You want to put the Dados at an angle to make the inside base tighter, right?
> As well as the triangle wants to apply shear pressure just on how it's setup. That's going to happen.
> I'm starting to think there's some kinda fastener in there to hold it together from the shear.
> 
> And it's not a problem, I'm just glad to help other people. I just keep thinking about the leg though and why it doesn't situate properly.


That's exactly what I'm talking about... I'm going to turn some wood into splinters messing with this... This kind of stuff right here will drive me crazy until I see a satisfactory produced product. Its. Fun one for awhile  I'll keep stuff posted mistakes an all


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this model's legs look to be at 30 degrees*

If they are all at the same angle relative to the horizontal...?
take a 1 X 1" stick and lay it around each leg and scribe a line on all 4 sides. This will give you a plane at the proper angle to make the legs parallel to the horizontal. There are 2 ways to makes things like this....just do it ... and just calculate it. I'm lousy at math, so that's why I suggested the approach above.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

This took me about 15 minutes to mock up.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

So I don't think you can have them all pass thru a centre axis without turning your joint on a lathe.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

The compound angles turned out to be 40° x 40°. My stock was just ripped off the saw and housing joints were done with my rotary chisel with out aid of a depth gage ( fancy talk for drop saw ). 

In my opinion you need to cut one length in half and slide it in from opposing sides

But looking at your picture it is not thru a centre axis so can be done rather easy but your compound angle will be two different angles. 

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

It seems the mock up was worth the effort, my 4 yr old has been playing with it ever since, looks like I will have to get into making timber puzzles.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

DaveTTC said:


> It seems the mock up was worth the effort, my 4 yr old has been playing with it ever since, looks like I will have to get into making timber puzzles.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


Well at least you didn't waste all your time. I haven't had a chance to mess with it yet got a project due tommorow so been. Busy tieing up loose ends...... I will be back


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> If they are all at the same angle relative to the horizontal...?
> take a 1 X 1" stick and lay it around each leg and scribe a line on all 4 sides. This will give you a plane at the proper angle to make the legs parallel to the horizontal. There are 2 ways to makes things like this....just do it ... and just calculate it. I'm lousy at math, so that's why I suggested the approach above.


The legs in this picture are 1 1/2 " X 1 1/2" exactly... I do use a jointer and I totally agree about flat and straight. And the angle in this picture top and bottom are both on a 45° compound... I'm going to play with the mock up more when I have time. If you got any new ideas they are more than welcome I appreciate you even taking look at this thread


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

ruthless1 said:


> The legs in this picture are 1 1/2 " X 1 1/2" exactly... I do use a jointer and I totally agree about flat and straight. And the angle in this picture top and bottom are both on a 45° compound... I'm going to play with the mock up more when I have time. If you got any new ideas they are more than welcome I appreciate you even taking look at this thread.also the scribing part was next on the list but I'm only doing that to find the mystery ####


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Try a 40° 40° compound, I think it will be closer. I think you may find 39° 41° might be closer but you have to get it the right way round

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

DaveTTC said:


> Try a 40° 40° compound, I think it will be closer. I think you may find 39° 41° might be closer but you have to get it the right way round
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


BTW I think you have went a little farther than the original picture.your trying to make everythingrunthrough an exact center, whereas the original pic is offset just a bit like your sketch up. All good but I noticed that yesterday and I also noticed that your pieces are dadoed different than your sketch. All appreciated just didn't want to lose where we were going with the joint


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

ruthless1 said:


> BTW I think you have went a little farther than the original picture.your trying to make everythingrunthrough an exact center, whereas the original pic is offset just a bit like your sketch up. All good but I noticed that yesterday and I also noticed that your pieces are dadoed different than your sketch. All appreciated just didn't want to lose where we were going with the joint


Because it is off set is why I say your compound would be 2 slightly different angles. I did not do the sketch up, there were 2 of us replying.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

DaveTTC said:


> Try a 40° 40° compound, I think it will be closer. I think you may find 39° 41° might be closer but you have to get it the right way round
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy





DaveTTC said:


> Because it is off set is why I say your compound would be 2 slightly different angles. I did not do the sketch up, there were 2 of us replying.
> 
> Dave The Turning Cowboy


aahhhhh ok my bad i didnt catch that you didnt do the sketch i need to go back and thank him aswell


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## ruthless1 (Feb 18, 2011)

Calzone said:


> Give me a moment, and I'll draft up some plans you can put to scale
> 
> EDIT: okay, so here's the gist of the joint. After observation, there are of course three pieces.
> 
> ...


thank you for the sketch up bud it helped outhuge


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