# Trouble with Pledge Lemon Oil



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I am refinishing the simple table top shown below.

I finely sanded (220 grit) off the old finish but I did NOT strip the old finish off first.

Now I have applied 8 wiped of diluted MinWax poly top coats. The end result is not obvious from the picture (can't get a good close up) but it is not right. There many, many small dull spots.

Having discovered that Pledge lemon oil was used on this table many times I suspect that it what is causing the problem.

I cannot start over and strip and sand because the veneer is too thin.

1. Can I put on a barrier coat of diluted Zinsser Sealcoat and the apply more poly top coats?

2. This table does not get used much ...can I apply MinWax paste wax over the poly finish?

Thank you.

Gary


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

I would try wet sanding it first.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Id hit it with a chemical stripper to get back down to bare wood, then start re-finishing. Ignoring the dull spots, the furniture polish will create some adhesion issues with the poly, so even if you were to add more coats to get the shine you want itd probably end up flaking off anyway


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

NickDIY said:


> I would try wet sanding it first.


Thanks but I don't understand the implications or benefits of doing that.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Id hit it with a chemical stripper to get back down to bare wood, then start re-finishing. Ignoring the dull spots, the furniture polish will create some adhesion issues with the poly, so even if you were to add more coats to get the shine you want itd probably end up flaking off anyway


 Thank you. I am very nervous about going all that way back.

Gary


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

GAF said:


> Thanks but I don't understand the implications or benefits of doing that.
> 
> Gary


Wet sanding removes very little material, but should produce a very smooth, consistent gloss on the finish. Not much to it - a little water and some very fine sand paper.

Wood magazine has a good tutorial - here.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

NickDIY said:


> Wet sanding removes very little material, but should produce a very smooth, consistent gloss on the finish. Not much to it - a little water and some very fine sand paper.
> 
> Wood magazine has a good tutorial - here.


Nick thank you for the link. I have viewed the tutorial quickly and will review it in detail later.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's possible the finish you have put on the table is destine to peal off. Anytime you apply a finish over an old one you have to thoroughly clean off any substance that might be on it. If it were me I would continue with what you are doing. If it peals then strip it and refinish it. Chances are the table has some silicone on it too. If you would purchase a fisheye control solvent and add a small amount to your finish I think you could sand it and give it another coat and it would do alright. The fisheye control solvent I use is called Smoothie. It just takes a couple drops per quart. This type product is available at places that sell automotive paint. Now, be warned the fisheye control solvent is silicone. The brush you use, rags, sandpaper, the left over finish needs to be segregated or disposed of after you are done or you will contaminate another project and cause the same problem or worse on new wood. 

You don't have to wet sand the table but you need to sand it to a uniform sheen.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It's possible the finish you have put on the table is destine to peal off. Anytime you apply a finish over an old one you have to thoroughly clean off any substance that might be on it. If it were me I would continue with what you are doing. If it peals then strip it and refinish it. Chances are the table has some silicone on it too. If you would purchase a fisheye control solvent and add a small amount to your finish I think you could sand it and give it another coat and it would do alright. The fisheye control solvent I use is called Smoothie. It just takes a couple drops per quart. This type product is available at places that sell automotive paint. Now, be warned the fisheye control solvent is silicone. The brush you use, rags, sandpaper, the left over finish needs to be segregated or disposed of after you are done or you will contaminate another project and cause the same problem or worse on new wood.
> 
> You don't have to wet sand the table but you need to sand it to a uniform sheen.


 Thanks Steve. Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

Can you give me any feedback on my 2 alternatives of waxing or putting on Sealcoat and then more poly? Are those both bad ideas?

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You might put more poly on it but I wouldn't put sealcoat between polyurethane. Shellac is a completely different finish than polyurethane. Wax won't really help unless you rub out and compound the finish. This would probably give you a glossier finish than you want. It would certainly take more elbow grease than another coat.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

When I had my woodworking business we had a love/hate relationship with products like Pledge. I would tell my customers 'I *hate* that you used that but I *love* the fact that you now have to pay me to fix it for you' 

You can also try to use some Pumice on a soft cloth and a flat block. Wrap the soft cloth on the flat block so that there is sufficient cushion on the bottom, lightly sprinkle some Pumice on the table top, and lightly rub with the grain applying even pressure. This should even out the finish to where it is fairly uniform. It won't be as abrasive as wet sanding and is pretty easy to control. You can do it dry or wet to vary the sheen.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

difalkner said:


> When I had my woodworking business we had a love/hate relationship with products like Pledge. I would tell my customers 'I *hate* that you used that but I *love* the fact that you now have to pay me to fix it for you'
> 
> You can also try to use some Pumice on a soft cloth and a flat block. Wrap the soft cloth on the flat block so that there is sufficient cushion on the bottom, lightly sprinkle some Pumice on the table top, and lightly rub with the grain applying even pressure. This should even out the finish to where it is fairly uniform. It won't be as abrasive as wet sanding and is pretty easy to control. You can do it dry or wet to vary the sheen.


Furniture polish, even Pledge isn't a problem if you take it into consideration when finishing. My wife uses Behold on our furniture and I don't worry about it at all. You just have to automatically use a wax and grease remover. Then when I refinish I usually shoot one corner and see if the finish is going to fisheye before I spray the whole thing. If there is a problem I reach for the smoothie and the problem goes away.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You might put more poly on it but I wouldn't put sealcoat between polyurethane. Shellac is a completely different finish than polyurethane. Wax won't really help unless you rub out and compound the finish. This would probably give you a glossier finish than you want. It would certainly take more elbow grease than another coat.


 Thank you Steve. I will apply more top coats and hope that it all works out.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

difalkner said:


> When I had my woodworking business we had a love/hate relationship with products like Pledge. I would tell my customers 'I *hate* that you used that but I *love* the fact that you now have to pay me to fix it for you'
> 
> You can also try to use some Pumice on a soft cloth and a flat block. Wrap the soft cloth on the flat block so that there is sufficient cushion on the bottom, lightly sprinkle some Pumice on the table top, and lightly rub with the grain applying even pressure. This should even out the finish to where it is fairly uniform. It won't be as abrasive as wet sanding and is pretty easy to control. You can do it dry or wet to vary the sheen.


Thanks David. I have some pumice and may just give this a try.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> It's possible the finish you have put on the table is destine to peal off. Anytime you apply a finish over an old one you have to thoroughly clean off any substance that might be on it. If it were me I would continue with what you are doing. If it peals then strip it and refinish it. Chances are the table has some silicone on it too. If you would purchase a fisheye control solvent and add a small amount to your finish I think you could sand it and give it another coat and it would do alright. The fisheye control solvent I use is called Smoothie. It just takes a couple drops per quart. This type product is available at places that sell automotive paint. Now, be warned the fisheye control solvent is silicone. The brush you use, rags, sandpaper, the left over finish needs to be segregated or disposed of after you are done or you will contaminate another project and cause the same problem or worse on new wood.
> 
> You don't have to wet sand the table but you need to sand it to a uniform sheen.



Steve I did mange to find some fish eye eliminator to buy locally at an automotive supplies store as you suggested. And IT WORKED.


Simple follow on question ...


I have properly segregated the mixture of the top coating with the fish eye eliminator blended in. Is there any reason that I cannot use this on future projects even if they do not have a fish eye problem?


Thanks.


Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I did mange to find some fish eye eliminator to buy locally at an automotive supplies store as you suggested. And IT WORKED.
> 
> 
> Simple follow on question ...
> ...


Some refinishers add the fisheye control solvent to everything they finish. There is really no reason you can't do that however I never did like to automatically contaminate everything. Like I said earlier the fisheye control solvent is silicone, the same stuff in pledge that causes the problem in the first place. 

Maybe it was because I only used it on problem furniture that gave me fits. From time to time I would go to finish a new piece of wood and the finish would fisheye. Then I would realize I accidentally used a piece of sandpaper that was used on a piece of furniture that I had used smoothie. I've also had employees that would empty a sprayer which contained smoothie back in the gallon can contaminating the whole gallon. I got to where I had to use a separate sprayer just for that and the sanding pads I sprayed the back side with red paint to identify them as having silicone on them. 

The sad thing is eventually if you keep refinishing you will come across a piece of furniture that has so much silicone on it that the smoothie won't work and since you don't spray I don't know how you will overcome it. On these pieces I had to use lacquer and spray two or three very thin coats on before the smoothie would begin to work. There are a few people around that are obsessed with dusting and probably put pledge on a piece of furniture three or four times a week for decades. The stuff will soak through the finish and into the wood.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Some refinishers add the fisheye control solvent to everything they finish. There is really no reason you can't do that however I never did like to automatically contaminate everything. Like I said earlier the fisheye control solvent is silicone, the same stuff in pledge that causes the problem in the first place.
> 
> Maybe it was because I only used it on problem furniture that gave me fits. From time to time I would go to finish a new piece of wood and the finish would fisheye. Then I would realize I accidentally used a piece of sandpaper that was used on a piece of furniture that I had used smoothie. I've also had employees that would empty a sprayer which contained smoothie back in the gallon can contaminating the whole gallon. I got to where I had to use a separate sprayer just for that and the sanding pads I sprayed the back side with red paint to identify them as having silicone on them.
> 
> The sad thing is eventually if you keep refinishing you will come across a piece of furniture that has so much silicone on it that the smoothie won't work and since you don't spray I don't know how you will overcome it. On these pieces I had to use lacquer and spray two or three very thin coats on before the smoothie would begin to work. There are a few people around that are obsessed with dusting and probably put pledge on a piece of furniture three or four times a week for decades. The stuff will soak through the finish and into the wood.



Steve thanks for the very detailed feedback. That is some pretty good advice for being very cautious about this. I sure do get the message about projects that just don't want to cooperate. This one was for my father-in-law and was meant to be a quick and dirty simple refinish of the table top. Well 15 top coats later it is done and will not be remembered fondly.


Thank you for your continuing support.


Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What I've never been able to get used to though is silicone is the cause of the problem so you add silicone to your finish.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> What I've never been able to get used to though is silicone is the cause of the problem so you add silicone to your finish.


Steve that sure is counter intuitive. I will proceed cautiously.

Gary


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

The problem with "fish eye eliminator is that you contaminate your equipment and the over spray contaminates everything in your shop including any lumber you have in the shop. The fish eye eliminator is pure silicone which is the primary cause of "fish eyes". Furniture polishes like Pledge are based on silicone.

The way I have seen professional shops and experienced finishers deal with silicone is the following.

First use a chemical paint stripper containing methylene chloride. Carefully discard the scraped off gunk. Then wipe the stripped surface with acetone applied with lots of paper towels. With each towel only wipe once than then discard the towel. Wiping back and forth only spreads the silicone around. Do the whole surface twice. Now apply a coat of sprayed dewaxed shellac. Do not sand the surface. Now apply your first coat of your chosen finish. Apply two coats lightly sanding between coats.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks Howie for the information. Still learning after 4 years of doing this.


Gary


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