# Exploding dowel pins



## GregJ7 (May 22, 2021)

Woodworking novice here. "Hardwood" dowel pins have never seemed to have much density and I questioned their strength—not specifically their shearing strength, but rather their resistance to general stress. The other day I got proof of the low quality of the 5/16" ones I was using. I was shortening dowel pins with a radial arm saw when one of them got out of alignment to the blade during the cut and it just exploded. It splintered and broke in many places. My reaction has been (1) to think maybe I should take the time to hand cut dowel pins in the future, and (2) to think maybe I should be cutting my own pins from hardwood dowels. It would be rather inconvenient, but is doable. Presumably the pins would need to fit in the hole not too tightly to allow for minor expansion from the moisture in glue, since I won't want to flute them. Wood density/integrity might not matter much for the larger pins, but I expect to use 1/4" pins more often than not. I'd rather buy better quality pins. It's not that I will be gluing up joints that will be under severe stress, but more that I want to be confident the pinned joint is strong in case it comes under temporary stress. Has anyone run into this before, and how did you resolve it?


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

I don't remember the company(companies) but there are places you can buy pre-made dowels from most any wood you want. I am sure a search will reveals these places.

I make my own much of time because the ones I buy local are cheap wood and often the sizes are not consistent. But if you use a lot of them I would just buy them.

That said, dowels are typically more for alignment then strength. Depends on what you are doing but if it is glue joint the glue is where the strength is, not the dowel.


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## m.n.j.chell (May 12, 2016)

I don't use dowels often. My understanding is the same as Kudzu's. Dowels are to ensure alignment when assembling. After assembly, the dowels don't increase the strength of the joint by any appreciable measure.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Have dowels in bread board ends. More than alignment going on there...

Me and my son in law are making a gate for his stairs. Do you think Dowling these wont help. Glue will be enough?


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## GregJ7 (May 22, 2021)

Thanks for the responses! I can't imagine how I never learned that dowel pins are mainly for alignment—perhaps it never registered because my skill at drilling at a consistent offset from an edge is poor. I can understand that a biscuit (cutter) is relatively easy to use to cut at a consistent offset, though. Certainly the glue + clamping I do creates a joint stronger than wood (although it is more prone to wood delamination at the glue line). Perhaps all I really need is to rethink whether, given a specific situation, I really just need a stronger joint (mortised, rabbeted, dovetailed [although I can't cut dovetails], etc.).


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Dowel pins aren't only for alignment...


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## GregJ7 (May 22, 2021)

Good point, gluing endgrain can use all the help it can get.


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## Dave Mills (Dec 4, 2019)

Greg if you get a doweling jig (I use the DowelMax), you can get very accurate alignment of edge and end grain joints with dowels. And I would say the strength of those end grain joints are in the same league as M&T or other loose tenon joints, depending on how much wood you put in there. You can find strength tests on youtube.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Rebelwork, If I were making the gate... I would consider half laps or bridle joints, especially if used for children's safety.

Another consideration would be to use plywood for loose tenons if in your case the framework was already cut to size. Plywood will lend strength and stability in each direction of the grain.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It wil be fine...thx


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

GregJ7 said:


> I was shortening dowel pins with a radial arm


That alone seems dangerous. I use my 12" bandsaw or cut by hand if I need to shorten a dowel.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

GregJ7 said:


> Thanks for the responses! I can't imagine how I never learned that dowel pins are mainly for alignment


Well, you never learned that because it flat out isn't true. A dowel joint is barely behind a mortise and tenon joint in terms of strength, if dowels are only for alignment, so are m&ts 

Having a dowel explode after binding with a saw blade is hardly surprising. It's a slender piece of wood impacting something at 60mph, not like it's going to stay intact. Drop a 2x4 on to a running saw blade and it'll be worse for wear too


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Strength of dowels? Let's picture two pieces, glued end to end with a dowel centered to locate them. If you twist one, once the glue fails, it will rotate around the dowel because it is round. If you try to bend the two pieces, it will likely break at the glue joint.
Using the same size two pieces, but with a mortise and tenon joint, twisting will likely break the surrounding wood with much greater resistance to the twist. A square peg will not rotate in a square hole, unlike a dowel. Bending the assembly will also offer more resistence because of the shoulder on the tenon. Dowels do not have shoulders, so their strength relies soley their diameter. A 1/2" square section of wood has more area than a 1/2" diameter dowel, so it's stronger.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

This is how we were doing it in the early 80's. Been on the hunt for one for a while. . This one os not the same but similar


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I use dowels quite a bit and haven't had problems with strength. I usually buy dowel rod and cut what I need with the scroll saw. For the place for glue I usually cut small notches all around them also with the scroll saw. If anything breaks it's almost always the wood around the dowels themselves so to compensate I'll usually make through dowels and pound them all the way through and trim off the excess.. Lots of work if you're using a lot of dowels.. I've made chairs and tables with dowels quite often..


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

First time ive seen someone try to use the resistance to twisting of a single dowel as a mark against it. In fairness, it would be a valid criticism, if anybody ever used a single dowel as a joint for anything more than a chair spindle... As is, its a completely useless critique, given that a dowel joint will have 2 dowels at minimum. Breaking a properly done dowel joint will result in the same failure modes as a properly done mortise and tenon joint, i.e the wood around the joint splits and fails. Once that happens, youre talking about bare pounds of force difference, when the joint is capable of handling hundreds either way. 

Got numbers to back that up too: Dowel vs. mortise and tenon revisited. For anybody too lazy to read a chart, the average force required to break a dowel joint was 123 pounds, applied a foot away from the joint for plenty of leverage. The mortise and tenon joints failed at an average of 138 pounds.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

In some cases the dowel will be a stronger wood than that of the boards, so in that case the 1/2" square tenon would not be a strong as a 1/2" dowel. Dowels have their place and have stood the test of time for quite a few years.


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## JohnGi (May 9, 2019)

I use a lot of birch dowels, which I buy in 3 foot lengths, and also a lot of small splines, which I make out of maple.  I find it is much safer to cut both into short lengths on a bandsaw as difalkner suggests.
I find splines work better in corner joints. There's more side grain to side grain contact than with dowels.









And dowels work better in stile and rail joints. They need deeper penetration into the stile since the round shape has less side grain to side grain contact and doesn't glue as well.









I machine the splines about 0.005" undersized for a slip fit into the routs. I like dowels 0.003" to 0.005" oversized for a drive fit into the holes.
In high production, dowelled joints in doors develop enough strength in few seconds to be taken out of the clamp and, if handled with reasonable care, not shift out of square or loosen up.


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## JCCLARK (Jan 30, 2007)

I buy my 3/8" x 1.5" fluted dowels by the 1000. (much cheaper that way).
That's all I've used to join my face frames for cabinets for over 35 yrs now.
Never had a problem with strength, they are probably 10 times stronger than needed so anything stronger 
is a moot point. It's irrelevant.
I've tried to take a joint apart only seconds after gluing together wrong only to bust the frame instead.
The pre made fluted dowels I use expand after installed with glue and are impossible to remove without damage.
Strength is not a factor. Cabinets and furniture don't need to be able to lift a car.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I am still trying to understand the OP's issues (@GregJ7).

If the question is solely about dowel pins exploding when shortened on a radial arm saw, then my response would be to question whether the radial arm saw is the best tool for that job. I wonder whether this is just a simple clamping or tearout issue? Dowel pins are round, so supporting them to avoid tearout on a radial arm saw may not be easy.

Radial arm saw blades should have a negative hook angle, and I wonder whether that contributes to the tearout/explosion issue. Dumb question: Is the blade sharp?

Does Greg use some kind of jig? Perhaps scrapwood with properly sized dado slots to surround the dowels would help.

For small projects like toys, where a few dowels are needed, I cut them to size from various hardwood dowel rods. I use a mini hand saw and miter box like these (available from Rockler, Woodcraft, Amazon,etc.):
https://www.zonatool.net/cat/razor-saws-miter-boxes/miter-boxes-and-razor-saw-sets/

For quantity uses, I use bags of pre-made dowels with flutes cut in them. I have several really old doweling drill guides that I inherited or picked up over the years, and haven't figured out which one I prefer.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Occasionally there are problems that come up here that are only to be answered by those of us with too much time on our hands. 😀


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## Nowthatumentionit (Aug 8, 2020)

I've always considered M&T and dowels (done right with the proper jig) a toss-up in terms of strength. I like both depending more on my mood than the project itself.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

epicfail48 said:


> First time ive seen someone try to use the resistance to twisting of a single dowel as a mark against it. In fairness, it would be a valid criticism, if anybody ever used a single dowel as a joint for anything more than a chair spindle... As is, its a completely useless critique, given that a dowel joint will have 2 dowels at minimum. Breaking a properly done dowel joint will result in the same failure modes as a properly done mortise and tenon joint, i.e the wood around the joint splits and fails. Once that happens, youre talking about bare pounds of force difference, when the joint is capable of handling hundreds either way.
> 
> Got numbers to back that up too: Dowel vs. mortise and tenon revisited. For anybody too lazy to read a chart, the average force required to break a dowel joint was 123 pounds, applied a foot away from the joint for plenty of leverage. The mortise and tenon joints failed at an average of 138 pounds.


I don't use them for everything obviously, but chair rails, etc. I'll typically use 2-3..usually the back rails that fail with dowels or M&T especially if you have someone who likes to rock back and forth which is something I never quite understood why my mother got so mad at me for doing until I had to threaten to beat my own kids for doing it.. lol


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

> For quantity uses, I use bags of pre-made dowels with flutes cut in them.


I've yet to find precut fluted dowels that I like. I had a bag of spiral cut I liked, but I can't remember where I got them.. There is an online place that sells them, but you gotta get like a minimum of 1000 or some outrageous order over a few hundred bucks..


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Nowthatumentionit said:


> I've always considered M&T and dowels (done right with the proper jig) a toss-up in terms of strength. I like both depending more on my mood than the project itself.


M&T, dowels, domino's, dowels or pocket screws all have there place but don't confuse strengths or when I should or can use one or the other..


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> M&T, dowels, domino's, dowels or pocket screws all have there place *but don't confuse strengths or when I should or can use one or the other*..


That is exactly the type of question that someone without your vast professional experience would want to know ... when to use which type of joinery or which is stronger? What's your opinion on each?

I agree that each type has it's advantages, however.
I have restored some antique chairs from around 1920, that used 2 dowels in all the joints. I took them completely apart, and drilled the old ones out and replaced them with new.
I built a Mission Style quilt rack that has 30 or so mortise and tenon joints.
I used biscuits on a glue up for a buddy's kitchen table top, with good results even though they were not my first choice.
I used dowels to join a microwave stand I made about 40 years ago for my Dad, and its still strong even without a back panel to resist racking.

My theory in the use of dowels in furniture is that they are more of an expedient production line means of fastening than mortise and tenons would be, unless it was a very high volume piece where the tooling would make that means pay off.
I find biscuits easier and faster to use on 3/4" thick stock than dowels. A spline would be stronger only IF the grain is run at right angles to the slot. That would means a whole lot of cross grain thin strips, not as easy to make, but doable.
I used a bench top mortister for some of my quilt rack joints. Then being somewhat frustrated, I switched to a router in a self center jig which was 10X easier and faster, but left rounded corners.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

it was't the "strength" of the dowels which made it explode, it was the selection of the tool to cut it. being round, it is tough to hold dowels as the cutter action is moved into the wood. so the more benign the tool the better: hand saw, scroll saw, bandsaw.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Exactly!


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## Wingedwheel (May 17, 2021)

TimPa said:


> it was't the "strength" of the dowels which made it explode, it was the selection of the tool to cut it. being round, it is tough to hold dowels as the cutter action is moved into the wood. so the more benign the tool the better: hand saw, scroll saw, bandsaw.


I totally agree which is why I use a shoe mounding cutter for small pieces instead of trying to use a power saw. It’s impossible to keep something that small from moving just from vibrations of the saw and movement= binding. Just my thoughts....


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## Wingedwheel (May 17, 2021)

Should have said shoe moulding cutter.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

#1.... we cut 1/4 scribe on a RAS in the 80's..

#2..... it was zero clearance on the RAS.

#3...... was it a 2" dowel being cut to 1.75 or was it a 36" dowel being cut down..

The problem hasnt been identified unless I missed something.


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## RioVistaAndy (Feb 22, 2021)

Kudzu said:


> I don't remember the company(companies) but there are places you can buy pre-made dowels from most any wood you want. I am sure a search will reveals these places.
> 
> I make my own much of time because the ones I buy local are cheap wood and often the sizes are not consistent. But if you use a lot of them I would just buy them.
> 
> That said, dowels are typically more for alignment then strength. Depends on what you are doing but if it is glue joint the glue is where the strength is, not the dowel.


À good glue joint is all you need. Just joint your edges to .001-.006" clearances. In a good joint the glue will be 125% stronger than the wood. 
I felt the same as you until I watched a video on the relative strength a dowel, loose tenon or a biscuit has as compared to a good glue joint. The only joint that may increase strength is the spine joint.


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## thetazva (Apr 30, 2021)

GregJ7 said:


> Woodworking novice here. "Hardwood" dowel pins have never seemed to have much density and I questioned their strength—not specifically their shearing strength, but rather their resistance to general stress. The other day I got proof of the low quality of the 5/16" ones I was using. I was shortening dowel pins with a radial arm saw when one of them got out of alignment to the blade during the cut and it just exploded. It splintered and broke in many places. My reaction has been (1) to think maybe I should take the time to hand cut dowel pins in the future, and (2) to think maybe I should be cutting my own pins from hardwood dowels. It would be rather inconvenient, but is doable. Presumably the pins would need to fit in the hole not too tightly to allow for minor expansion from the moisture in glue, since I won't want to flute them. Wood density/integrity might not matter much for the larger pins, but I expect to use 1/4" pins more often than not. I'd rather buy better quality pins. It's not that I will be gluing up joints that will be under severe stress, but more that I want to be confident the pinned joint is strong in case it comes under temporary stress. Has anyone run into this before, and how did you resolve it?


1. I would say the first thing is I would question why you would try to shorten small dowels on a radial arm saw, seems like an accident waiting to happen. 2. dowels add to the strength of a joint as they add more glue area with a bonus of helping to align the two pieces of material. Good quality dowels are available from numerous sources and in most wood varieties. Good luck and stay safe.


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

The exploding dowel could be number of teeth on the blade (lesser teeth tend to be more aggressive also feed rate is a factor), If I have to cut alot of dowels on the RAS I use a plywood blade, generally I use a bandsaw for just a few.,


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## homestd (Aug 24, 2018)

My thoughts exactly redeared...The smaller the stock, the more TPI on the blade, I think I heard it here that you should shoot for three teeth in contact with the stock at all times.


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## Kudzu (Dec 23, 2008)

Just amazes me at how many people can't read and/or comprehend what was written.


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## Rev. A (Jan 29, 2021)

GregJ7 said:


> Woodworking novice here. "Hardwood" dowel pins have never seemed to have much density and I questioned their strength—not specifically their shearing strength, but rather their resistance to general stress. The other day I got proof of the low quality of the 5/16" ones I was using. I was shortening dowel pins with a radial arm saw when one of them got out of alignment to the blade during the cut and it just exploded. It splintered and broke in many places. My reaction has been (1) to think maybe I should take the time to hand cut dowel pins in the future, and (2) to think maybe I should be cutting my own pins from hardwood dowels. It would be rather inconvenient, but is doable. Presumably the pins would need to fit in the hole not too tightly to allow for minor expansion from the moisture in glue, since I won't want to flute them. Wood density/integrity might not matter much for the larger pins, but I expect to use 1/4" pins more often than not. I'd rather buy better quality pins. It's not that I will be gluing up joints that will be under severe stress, but more that I want to be confident the pinned joint is strong in case it comes under temporary stress. Has anyone run into this before, and how did you resolve it?


I buy dowel rod at the local hardware store (1/4" & 3/8") and cut to the length needed, usually on the band saw with a simple jig to hold it securely, safely and square. I then put the dowel in the chuck of my drill press and break the rough cut edge. I've found that there is some variation in the diameter of the dowel rods. Sometimes I have to use a slightly oversized or undersized drill bit OR sand the dowel as it spins in the drill press down a little. 

I'm about do do a project with many dowel joints so all this work would be too cumbersome. *Any suggestions??*

I've seen some studies where they test the breaking point of various types of joints with hydraulics. Results were always that the 2 best joints are mortise & tenon and dowel joints about the same. Having had some glue-up panel joint failures I decided to added to add dowels as standard procedure.


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## jcleave (Aug 13, 2021)

Once I had to cut a bunch of 3/8" oak dowel rod into short sections for doweling. Knowing the chop saw would launch them, I just set up a bench hook with a stop (like a miter box), and used a hacksaw - its only a couple strokes and you're through.


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## RioVistaAndy (Feb 22, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> Dowel pins aren't only for alignment...


Paul Sellers makes a point of the need for Dowling on joints such as those to make up breadboard ends. And also to help put positive strain on some M&T joints.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When you come right down to it one of the most dangerous things you can cut is something that is round. If you don't take your time and let the saw cut at it's own pace the blade tends to grab it and spin the round item. It has nothing to do with the strength of the wood being cut it's just the nature of the cut.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

RioVistaAndy said:


> Paul Sellers makes a point of the need for Dowling on joints such as those to make up breadboard ends. And also to help put positive strain on some M&T joints.


To me Paul Sellers and Peter Sellers are the same.. I wasn't educated by books, youtube, etc. I was educated by professionals one on one In the shops in union and non-union..

So I can't relate to what you've read...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> To me Paul Sellers and Peter Sellers are the same.. I wasn't educated by books, youtube, etc. I was educated by professionals one on one In the shops in union and non-union..
> 
> So I can't relate to what you've read...


I believe when I got started only NASA had computers. Certainly before someone ever thought about the internet.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Steve Neul said:


> When you come right down to it one of the most dangerous things you can cut is something that is round. If you don't take your time and let the saw cut at it's own pace the blade tends to grab it and spin the round item. It has nothing to do with the strength of the wood being cut it's just the nature of the cut.


This thread and video made a lasting impression on me. The video is worth your time to watch and learn. Here is the thread:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/threads/improper-bandsaw-use-psa.169129

Here is a direct link to the video - The music is delightful, but the "cutting round things dangerously" part of the video starts at 1:30 (1 minute, 30 seconds):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48NvcoqSbRQ


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

It can’t be done freehand you have to put it in a holding sled.

I looked at the original post. A miter or table saw is a disaster waiting to happen, at least from a shock standpoint, and you never know where a shard is going to go flying.

Dowels need flutes or a groove to relieve hydraulic pressure. Or they are too loose.

Not a big fan of dowels, I use biscuits for alignment. In my hands I get better results than a Domino.

These days I pin almost every mortise and tenon joint on table legs.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm still looking for a good supply of spiral cut dowels .. I've found a few online, but they generally want more for shipping than the dowels are worth in the first place.. I usually cut spirals with the scroll saw. Not very precise, but still work and darn strong after glueup.. Most fluted dowels are just stamped..


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

allpurpose said:


> I'm still looking for a good supply of spiral cut dowels .. I've found a few online, but they generally want more for shipping than the dowels are worth in the first place.. I usually cut spirals with the scroll saw. Not very precise, but still work and darn strong after glueup.. Most fluted dowels are just stamped..


Trick i learned a while back for DIY fluting, just squeeze the dowel in a pair of slip joint pliers. Compresses the dowel a bit, and the teeth on the jaws of the pliers gives a bit of fluting


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

allpurpose said:


> I'm still looking for a good supply of spiral cut dowels .. I've found a few online, but they generally want more for shipping than the dowels are worth in the first place.. I usually cut spirals with the scroll saw. Not very precise, but still work and darn strong after glueup.. Most fluted dowels are just stamped..


Rockler sells them. I have seen them in the stores, and here they are online:








Spiral Dowel Pins-Choose size


A variety of spiral dowel pins with stronger joints due to greater distribution of glue. Made of hard maple.




www.rockler.com


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

epicfail48 said:


> Trick i learned a while back for DIY fluting, just squeeze the dowel in a pair of slip joint pliers. Compresses the dowel a bit, and the teeth on the jaws of the pliers gives a bit of fluting


I've done this before plenty of times too. One problem I've run into from time to time is it sometimes misshapes the dowel for the hole it's going into. Not the worse case scenario by any means, but I really don't like store bought dowel pins . Half are either too small or too big. And it always feels like the fluted dowels are going to just slide out of the holes. That's why I prefer spiral cut.. It's probably my imagination, but spirals seem to give a better grip after glueup.. I could be right and could be wrong, but I'm sticking to my gimpy theory anyway. Lol


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Rockler sells them. I have seen them in the stores, and here they are online:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen these as well and they are pretty good. I still would rather buy a few thousand instead of 50. I'd run out buying just 50.. I don't use them as often as I used to, but I really hate running out when I do.. Me? Overkill? NEVER! LOL


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Mine have grooves down the length. Mine where purchased at a table manufacturing plant in Alabama when I worked there. I figure if they were good enough for a major manufacturer they were good enought or me.

Alot of older guys like me used dowels to make a living and are not scared of them. I can understand newer methods are offered, but I still use them...

I bought 10,000 dowels at once because sizes can vary. I wanted to use the same setup each time with the same reults.. I use the one on top..


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Rebelwork said:


> To me Paul Sellers and Peter Sellers are the same.. I wasn't educated by books, youtube, etc. I was educated by professionals one on one In the shops in union and non-union..
> 
> So I can't relate to what you've read...


I like reading what Paul Sellers writes usually, but his shtick is geared more towards the beginners who want to primarily work with just hand tools and avoid power equipment. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't for everyone. Last time I ripped a long piece of oak with a handsaw I thought my arms were gonna fall off.. Three thousand bucks worth of saw? I ain't doing it by hand if I can help it.. it can't hurt to learn all his hand tool stuff in the event that all the electricity in the world just comes to a screeching halt, but we'll have much bigger problems than just making pretty things if that happens..


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Everybody will view power to manual different and for different reasons. My goal was always money, so I'm gong to find th easiest way to make profit...

This also reflects on how I discuss things as well.


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## Rev. A (Jan 29, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> Dowel pins aren't only for alignment...


I saw some videos where various joints were tested with a hydraulic press to see the breaking point. The strongest joint was predictably mortise & tenon but Dowels came in a close 2nd. Dowels are much less work than mortis & tenon so I started using them. 

There was some discussion on cutting dowels. This is a simple, safe jig for cutting them on the band saw very quickly. Just measure, hand tighten the screw and line up your cut with the edge of the 2x2. I deburr the ends by putting the dowel in a drill press and sand with cloth backed abrasive paper. Just hand tighten the chuck.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Rebelwork said:


> Everybody will view power to manual different and for different reasons. My goal was always money, so I'm gong to find th easiest way to make profit...
> 
> This also reflects on how I discuss things as well.


Pretty much how I feel about it except my body is slowing down to make as much profit as I used to be able to. I dunno though..I do enjoy digging out my hand tools every now and then for small projects for myself and the wife. When it comes to profit there's nothing like speed..


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