# Trying to build a bench



## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Good day, I'm complete nOOb in woodworking but I anyway decided to try to build myself an organ bench. I just went for 16mm (5/8) plywood thickness on recommendation at the hardware store.

I have attached two versions of layout for the bench, I have no idea what version is stronger and if either one of those are strong enough.

I will probably use glue and screws to put it together.

Can you give me some advice?  Btw. only powertool I have is cordless hand drill. 

The measurements:

Blue = 130 x 30 cm (51 x 11,8 inches)
Green = 130 x 10 cm (51 x 4 inches)
Yellow = 60 x 30 cm (23,6 x 11,8 inches)


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

We have an introduction section where you can say a few words about yourself. If you fill out your profile in your "User Control Panel", you can list any hobbies, experience, occupation, or if retired…from what, or other facts. You can also list your general geographical location which would be a help in answering some questions. In doing that your location will show under your username when you post. 

How do you plan to cut your parts? IMO, neither drawing would be sturdy enough, especially in ⅝" plywood, and with out some extensive bracing.






















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> How do you plan to cut your parts? IMO, neither drawing would be sturdy enough, especially in ⅝" plywood, and with out some extensive bracing..


Cabinetman, I have the colored parts cutted into the size I mentioned. However, I have some leftovers which I could maybe use to double the feets (by gluing two plywood together) and maybe cut into the "new" part a groove for the apron (green part) to seat into. 

Would that add enough strength?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The problem with your design is that the 'legs' done in a panel like you drew will flex. There is very little corner bracing between the edge of the leg and the apron on the edge. The top will have some deflection due to how thin and unsupported it is (like the legs). It would be more sturdy if done with simple lumber (like this), 2x4's for legs, that were connected together, and corner braced to the top. The frame at the top could be center supported with cross supports and a plywood top.


















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

cabinetman, will it still flex even if I would double the "leg" panil by glueing two plywoods together?

And how about turning the aprons to center "beam", maybe not glued together but spaced apart.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

falcon1 said:


> cabinetman, will it still flex even if I would double the "leg" panil by glueing two plywoods together?
> 
> And how about turning the aprons to center "beam", maybe not glued together but spaced apart.


Fort a workbench, a panel or two panels will, IMO still flex. You could create a beam effect, but the remainder of the legs exposed below will have the ability to flex.


















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

How about bring in 4 "real" legs (2.5 inch thick) into the picture and attach them to the side plywood panels.









Also I could attach the reinforced leg panils little bit inside of the bench seat.









Strong enough? I will be sitting alot on it. 

Thank you for your help.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

That would be better than just panel ends.








 







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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Maybe stupid question, but what makes this bench design work better than mine original bench idea? To my eyes the leg panels in this design seems to be same thickness as if I would put my two leg panils together.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

falcon1 said:


> Maybe stupid question, but what makes this bench design work better than mine original bench idea? To my eyes the leg panels in this design seems to be same thickness as if I would put my two leg panils together.


You are saying it's better not me. If it is, and I'm not saying it is, it may be attributed to the underside of the top, but it could have a deep center stretcher, with corner gussets to the legs. The legs look like solid wood...which is stiffer than plywood. Whether it's better or not is conjecture.


















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Would this design be any stronger than previous ones? I have doubled up my plywood stock thickness.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

falcon1 said:


> Would this design be any stronger than previous ones? I have doubled up my plywood stock thickness.
> 
> View attachment 94655



I have offered my suggestion (post #4), which IMO would be your best solution.


















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Thanks for your help cabinetman.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Part of the problem that Cabinetman is pointing out is that plywood flexes more over a shorter distance than solid wood does. The design you originally posted is similar to a traditional five-board bench, which would probably be made out of pine. In those, the secret is that the "apron" panel front and back is let into a notch in the legs, to provide resistance to forward and back racking, and a little bit of resistance to end to end. 

If I were you, I'd replace the plywood with inexpensive lumber (in my part of the USA, that means pine: since you're measuring in metric, you're almost certainly not in the US, so I don't know what's cheap near you. Pine dimensional 1x12 is actually about 3/4" x 11.5", and not very expensive. I'd consider building the top and legs from that, and the front and back panels from 1x6 (usually 3/4" by 5.5", more or less). You can use a handsaw to cut the notches in the leg boards, and then glue and screw everything. Plywood is pretty hard to work accurately without a powered saw, and it does a lot of damage to the teeth of even an impulse-harded saw.

There's a good image of a pine five-board bench here, taken from this page.

You can certainly try the design with plywood, but I'd be concerned about the stability of the legs. Doubling the 16mm plywood would help, certainly. You could always try it and find out, but I'd be nervous about it long term.


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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Ok, lets start this project from scratch. I'm gona use the plywood for other future projects and buy a new wood material which is easier to handle, meaning needing less power tools.  Lets start with basic question:

Would it be ok to use pine (lodgepole) for this bench or will it be too soft wood for it, would hardwood be better?

Also, I know that softwood is easier to cut and handle with very basic tools but how about hardwood? Is it still "easy" to cut it and handle it with basic tools? Is Plywood much more difficult for handtools to cut and handle than hardwood?

Here is a new design for the bench:









I would use two measurements of wood, for the seat it will be 21x95mm (0.83 x 3.74 inch) and for the other parts of the bench an 21x70mm (0.83 x 2.76 inch).

The lower beam is used for footrest in practice that's why it is not centered.

I'm thinking about adding foot under the legs to help to stabilize the bench. Maybe not needed for that purpose?

Thank you all for your help so far. :smile:


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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Almost forgot, I will probably glue the three planks which form the bench seat together. Any other solution better than gluing them up?


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> Ok, lets start this project from scratch. I'm gona use the plywood for other future projects and buy a new wood material which is easier to handle, meaning needing less power tools.  Lets start with basic question:
> 
> Would it be ok to use pine (lodgepole) for this bench or will it be too soft wood for it, would hardwood be better?
> 
> ...


What you have in this image is essentially a completely standard 5-board bench, made out of more than five boards. I would say that this should be a pretty solid design. I'd rather see a slightly thicker material, but 3/4" is pretty standard around here, and they hold up fine.

I haven't used lodgepole pine, specifically, but I have a bench like this made out of white pine by my... great grandfather, I think? Maybe just grandfather. It was either my mother's father, or his father. In either case, it was probably built in the 1940s or early 1950s. It's holding up just fine, although it's been repainted about twenty times.

Hardwood can be cut with hand tools. It takes longer than softwood, is all. Plywood isn't much harder to cut, but it dulls your tools a lot faster: they're designed for cutting wood, and the glue that's used to hold plywood together is a lot harder and more brittle, so it wears down the cutting surfaces much faster. A saw will stay sharper longer cutting beech or hard maple than it will cutting plywood.

For gluing up the seat: conventional wisdom says joint the three pieces (you can use a jointer, a router with a guide, or a jointing plane), glue them together, then nail them to the leg boards with no glue to avoid expansion problems in the future. The design you've chosen, with what amounts to a rail and stile panel at each end, might be better off with no glue in that joint: the seat will expand across its width, and the rail (with grain running horizontally) won't expand across it's length. If everything is glued together, that's a recipe for cracking or a failed joint over the years.

If it was me, for that joint (seat to leg panel), I'd rabbet the seat lightly (maybe 1/4 the thickness of the seat), and then use cut nails to hold the seat to the legs. I've been looking for an excuse to use cutnails, though, and I already own a rabbet plane.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Your new design looks better. A suggestion I have would be to make it with the legs turned 90°, so they are wider along the direction of the bench's length. IMO, that would provide better structure to resist racking.


















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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Is it better to nail the seat to the legs rather than using screws? Andy, would you rabbet the seat on all sides?

I was also thinking about if it were good idea to add some support under the seat, like this:


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I would only rabbet at the ends; the reason for the rabbet there, in my opinion, is to add a little bit of resistance to racking in the legs, which isn't needed along the sides. Reinforcing the bottom of the seat will make it stronger, but you'll need to allow for movement in the seat if you do.

The typical bench looks like this:

[img=http://image.ana-white.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Full/4398882854_3af4c79e5a_1.jpg]

That's taken from Ana White's page, at http://ana-white.com/2010/01/plans-7-steps-to-distressed-bench-from.html, which also has step by step instructions on building it. I think the center support is unnecessary on hers, and makes it a six board bench rather than a five board, but it's not going to hurt anything.

For me, the nails/glue/screws question is pretty theoretical: I don't have personal experience with those, just a lot of theory. Different people will tell you different things, but I THINK the consensus is that nails flex better to allow for wood movement.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

falcon1 said:


> Is it better to nail the seat to the legs rather than using screws? Andy, would you rabbet the seat on all sides?
> 
> I was also thinking about if it were good idea to add some support under the seat, like this:


I like the way you had the ends before. I would just screw each seat board to the base and leave a gap between each board. Round over the seat boards and then you don't have to glue them together and have to sand them flat. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## falcon1 (May 8, 2014)

Could I do half-lap joint to attach the apron sides to the legs or would you recommend another type of joint?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

falcon1 said:


> Could I do half-lap joint to attach the apron sides to the legs or would you recommend another type of joint?


Halfs are good. I looked at the second to the last drawing again. I wouldn't change a thing. Stringers front and back running across the ends with half laps would look better too.

If your going to use screws. No buttons allowed. Counter bore the correct holes and use brass screws. Set them in a recess about an 1/8" below the surface. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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