# If You Could Do It Differently?



## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

What you would do differently if you were building your shop again? What tool(s) you wish you would have bought sooner or would have never bought?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Cricket said:


> What you would do differently if you were building your shop again? What tool(s) you wish you would have bought sooner or would have never bought?


Make it bigger but a lot more organized. Tools I wished I had bought sooner: good hand planes, really good chisels, draw knife and many molding planes.

One tool I wished I had never bought is an 8 inch jointer. Another tool I wished I had not bought was a profile sander.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

My "shop" (like I expect the majority) was always a work in progress. No plan ever made, needed or desired. 

I bought tools as they were required for whatever work I was doing or that I could afford at that time. 

I never had a formal "shop." It was always whatever space was available in my garage. 

I have never known anyone (other than commercial) that had a formal shop. Well, I take that back. My next door neighbor has a special built building in his back yard. I had forgotten about that because he has been dead many years now.

George


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## Just Wood (Dec 11, 2015)

I would have bought more of these hand tools:
https://youtu.be/An-7ggnTDm4
I love old tools and it really makes fun to restore them! :smile:

My first post here. Please be gentle... :icon_smile:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

If I was _building_ my shop instead of a gradual process to take over the two-car garage, as has been said, I would have outlets everywhere, a higher ceiling, and at least twice as large (if not larger). Instead of 21'x21' I would want 30'x50' minimum, north facing windows, separate room for finishing, closet for DC and air compressor, tons of light, and a small office so computers and such can stay out of the shop environment. 

And if my guitar building takes off like we want then we'll build _that very shop_ in the next few years!! :thumbsup:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Just Wood said:


> I would have bought more of these hand tools:
> https://youtu.be/An-7ggnTDm4
> I love old tools and it really makes fun to restore them! :smile:
> 
> My first post here. Please be gentle... :icon_smile:


Welcome JW glad to have you with us.

That little plane looks like it has been rode hard and put away wet. :smile: I also love the old tools, there is just something special about them.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I would have obviously built it bigger. I would put dust collection lines under the floor. I would use a wood floor instead of concrete. Every tool always lands on the tip when dropped. The wood floor or anything besides concrete would be hopefully easier to stand on. I would put in a bigger breaker box. 3 phase would be nice, but I'm not sure how practical that is. Tool wise, I wish I went straight for the good stuff. My only tool I don't use and have no plans of using is a 22-44 pro drum sander. I wish I got me Powermatic model 60 jointer, and router table sooner. I would like to get more hand tools, but that won't happen in the near future. I wish I built a proper work bench sooner which I still haven't done. We used to live in a house with a detached 30x40 garage. We moved a 1/4 mile away about 5 years ago and rented the other home which left me with a nice shop.


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

*I have a "wish list" of things that I'd change if I had the choice.*
*A Flat Floor*
Converting my garage into a shop left me with (fairly) steeply graded floor with a floor drain in the middle. I don't need the drain. The sloped floor makes it a huge pain to roll around large tools and I have to shim everything including saw horses. I'm currently entertaining the idea of pouring in some SLC.
*A Taller Cieling*
I'm at about 8' right now. I wish it was 10'. Eight is not so bad for moving things around until I installed lights, fans, heaters, hose & cord reels, etc. Now I effectively have less than 7'.
*In Floor Heating*
I'd love to just have in floor radiant "set it and forget it" heat. I'd set it at 55' all the time and not have to deal with my overhead radiant burning my forehead when I'm working underneath it.
*A Good Bench w/ Face Vise*
I think most of us come to this conclusion and there's been numerous books written on the subject. Having recently done a bit of hand work(using a crappy harbor freight bench/vise), I realized how valuable a good bench would have been...

*And a small list of things that I should have changed sooner.*
*Table Saw* - Going from a contractor saw to a cabinet saw is like towing a 10,000lb trailer with a 1/2 ton truck vs. a 1 ton dually. I loved my little Bosch 4100 (and still do), but the huge table and raw power of the PM2000 3HP cabinet saw really changed my appreciation for a good tool. I think you need to experience it to understand.
*Jointer* - In hindsight, a 6" 110V jointer is almost a toy with it's tiny little beds and bench top drill press motor. Going to an 8" model with better dust collection, a 2hp motor and looonnnnggg beds makes me appreciate a tool that irked me before. I'd love to go up to a 10" or 12", but space limitations apply, the jointer being a large footprint tool anyway.
*Drill Press* - The little Skil 3amp bench top model I started with was a joke. Quill travel is barely over 2". It would bog down with anything larger than 1/2" twist bit. It was so light that when I bumped it with a chunk of plywood, it flew right off the bench and landed on it's head (one of the best things that ever happened to my shop:smile. I upgraded to a JET 1HP floor model and converted the little skil to a mini drum sander. So much better of a machine...

*Then there's the "Now that I have it, I wouldn't live without" category.*
*A Good 2hp Bandsaw* - This a my "I had no idea how much I'd actually use it" tool. 
*HVLP* - Seriously stepped up my finishing game.
*Storage, Storage and Some More Storage* - Organization = Safety + Efficiency. Getting all of my tools & materials consolidated and where I can find them makes me a better worker.
*A Good Sharpening System* - I use a combination of the Worksharp 3000 and plate steel with sand paper. Sharp tools are simply safer and produce better results. I did entirely too many hack jobs with a crappy Stanley chisel that was rarely sharpened.
*Sanders* - I have a variety of sanders including small corner sanders and bench sanders. Sanding is the job that nobody likes, but really impacts final quality. At very least, you need a combination bench sander, a belt sander and a good RO sander plus sanding blocks, pads and paper for hand sanding.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

BigJim said:


> Make it bigger but a lot more organized. Tools I wished I had bought sooner: good hand planes, really good chisels, draw knife and many molding planes. One tool I wished I had never bought is an 8 inch jointer. Another tool I wished I had not bought was a profile sander.


 Why do you not like the jointer? I consider my Powermatic model 60 one of the best $800 I have ever spent. Depending on the model I would consider trading you a Grizzly 6" jointer and some loot for it.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

hwebb99 said:


> Why do you not like the jointer? I consider my Powermatic model 60 one of the best $800 I have ever spent. Depending on the model I would consider trading you a Grizzly 6" jointer and some loot for it.


HW, I just never needed it, my saw cut so smooth I rarely had to do any sanding the edges, and when glueing several boards together, never had a problem with them matching good and tight.

If I needed to straight rip or straighten a board I just used a jig I made for the table saw.

I really just didn't have a use for it so I swapped it for a shaper several years ago. It was an 8 inch Rockwell with a 6 foot bed, a good machine, I just didn't like a jointer.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

That's funny , Jim---I would never have admitted that I don't own a jointer until you did--

I had one years ago--seldom used it and finally got rid of the tired old thing.


I also have a table saw straight rip jig and another router one----never had a problem with edge gluing---


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

How do you flatten the face of the board?


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

For many of us starting years ago in the wood arena, good quality tools were at a premium price, and motorized was just for those serious souls that had extra $ or a rich uncle. For some us we learned to make do with whatever tool we could beg, barrow, refurbish, or make on our own. In the beginning it was a great learning experience in the education of woodworking. Today a lot of machinery/fixtures/ jigs can almost make the pieces without supervision, leaving some of the original WW techniques/tools in a dusty past. What would I do differently? Do it all sooner in life. Be safe.


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## Winthrop (Dec 24, 2015)

I had the opportunity to build a new shop after making things happen in two previous garages. Here is a list of some features I added

- In floor heat is the way to go. 
- Urinal and slop sink
- Underground electrical and dust collection for the table saw and for radial arm saw
- cathedral ceilings
- high output and high efficiency lighting
- exhaust vent in roof for spray and dust removal
- double doors to support easy movement of projects
- in ceiling speakers so you can rock to your favorite tunes
- Built in work bench from old bowling alley
- wired for wifi and cable
-220/120 wiring throughout the shop
- I also used the left over radiant floor pipe to route compressed air through the shop at multiple location and into my garage.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Tools I wish I never bought? 
Craftsman jointer, sanding center, radial arm saw (I gave them all away). 
Cheap hand tools. 
Lathe duplicator - I almost never use it.
Leigh D4 dovetail jig - it's a pain to set up.
Bosch SCMS - I wish I bought something more dust collection friendly.
Delta 23-710 wet/dry sharpening center.

Tools I wish I bought sooner?
A REAL workbench. Don't know how I ever got anything done before.
Quality hand planes, chisels and rasps.
Festool sanders and dust collector

To the jointer discussion - I use a #7 jointer for jointing. For flattening, I use any of number of different hand planes. It's more rewarding and a lot quieter.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Paint the concrete walls:thumbsup:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I, too, don't understand not using a jointer. It's one of my most used tools in the shop. I have a 6" and would _*love*_ to have an 8" - nothing better to flatten one face of a board. Actually, I have two 6" jointers but they don't equal a 12", sadly. If anyone wants a very smooth 6" Delta DJ-15 I'll make you a sweet deal just to get it out of my way.

One tool I don't use, don't plan to use, and don't want is my 8' Oliver lathe. It's a great variable speed lathe but it doesn't factor into what I'm building and it's in my way.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

hwebb99 said:


> How do you flatten the face of the board?


In my 42 year career I never had to flatten a board, I was fortunate enough to select all my materials, so I did select boards that weren't in need of flattening. Most lumber I bought was FAS and it had better be good or no sale. Some lumber was not s4s and I had to plane and straight rip. The s4s I did buy was usually 13/16" and could not stand removing enough to flatten. I just didn't need a jointer. :smile:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

BigJim said:


> In my 42 year career I never had to flatten a board, I was fortunate enough to select all my materials, so I did select boards that weren't in need of flattening. Most lumber I bought was FAS and it had better be good or no sale. Some lumber was not s4s and I had to plane and straight rip. The s4s I did buy was usually 13/16" and could not stand removing enough to flatten. I just didn't need a jointer. :smile:


I have to flatten them all the time but not because I pick out boards that aren't ready to use. For instance, here's a board I just received from someone asking me to cut some guitar sides and this board was warped, twisted, and cupped. No way I could cut two pieces 0.110" thick with the board like this -









By the time I squared this 1" thick board on the jointer it was about 5/8" thick but I got two good sides out of it. The board next to it is figured Amar Ebony and I had to get two back plates out of that but since I don't have a jointer wide enough I had to get creative with my drum sander and a sled (wedges under one corner, etc.).

Here's the finished set (sorry, this isn't really what the thread is about but I figured since I mentioned this I might as well show you what I was talking about and no, they don't match but it wasn't my wood or choice, I was just the bandsaw guy) -


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I'll agree with BigJim on the jointer. Never had to have one personally to achieve good results. We do have one at work and I will use when needed but not because I have too. 

I'll use a jointer, but not to face flatten boards. I can manipulate a planer for that.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

I'll admit, if I had a nice long jointer, I would use it----but I've gotten along just fine without one.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*what's your woodworking style?*



mikeswoods said:


> I'll admit, if I had a nice long jointer, I would use it----but I've gotten along just fine without one.


If you make a lot of case work and cabinets from sheet goods, you can pretty well get along wiothout a jointer...just my opinion.

If you make a lot of furniture from rough sawn hardwood I would not want to be without one. I have a 13" and a 6" and use the 6" almost every time I'm in the shop. I squared an edge from a flat face today in order to resaw some 3/8" scales/handles for a custom knife. The flat face registered against the fence and the square edge on the table didn't allow the piece to wobble. The resaw was "flawless".....vertical and an even dimension all along. The piece was rock hard Honduran Rosewood and it would not have been easy with hand tools. :yes:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

David, I see why you use a jointer, that would almost be a must with what you do. I just never had a call for using one. By the way, that is some beautiful wood.

Most of my career my work consisted of building construction, custom stairs and mill work, commercial furniture and casework, custom casework, and restoration of antique homes. There was very little really nice furniture in my past. You can see why I didn't really have a use for a jointer.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

" I see why you use a jointer, that would almost be a must with what you do."

"Almost" is a key word. I would have used a planer. 

Rough saw lumber...There are many who have worked with rough saw lumber without a jointer.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> " I see why you use a jointer, that would almost be a must with what you do."
> 
> "Almost" is a key word. I would have used a planer.
> 
> Rough saw lumber...There are many who have worked with rough saw lumber without a jointer.


A planer has the propensity to press the cupping, twisting, and warping out of a board and then it springs back to its original shape, albeit with a better surface. A jointer allows me to take one side down to dead flat and remove the offending out of shape form very quickly and easily. But if you can do it with a planer then that's fine, too. I just prefer a jointer for that.


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## HalVT (Dec 31, 2013)

20 amp outlets and breaker! Or 3 conductor wire and independent outlets at each box. My basement shop is wired with plenty of wall outlets, but they're all on one 15 amp circuit, and I trip the breaker way too often.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't think I would have done anything different with tools. I do wish I had used metal framing on the building. Funny what a 3" thick sheet of ice will do. Who would have thought it in Dallas.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't think I would have done anything different with tools. I do wish I had used metal framing on the building. Funny what a 3" thick sheet of ice will do. Who would have thought it in Dallas.


Did this just happen recently?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

BigJim said:


> Did this just happen recently?


No, it happened in the winter of 2002-2003 but I still haven't recovered from it. The work I'm doing now I'm on the road all the time and there isn't time to rebuild.

The building was 38'x100' with no center supports. It had been there for 15 years and was fine. I knew I was pushing my luck with wood framing but thought it would be alright if we didn't get a heavy snowfall. In Texas it rarely snows and especially it almost never accumulates very much. I kept wood to shore up the building in that event however we had 3" of sleet in the middle of the night and I slept through it. I woke up early that morning and saw how much had fallen and knew the building was in trouble. I rushed to get dressed to go shore up the building and while I was putting my shoes on I heard if fall. If I had been 5 minutes sooner I would have been in the building.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

No wall receptacle's lower edge less than 50" off the finished floor. 48" high receptacle mounting still gets covered by a 4x8 sheet of plywood leaning against the wall.


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## was2ndlast (Apr 11, 2014)

Bob Vaughan said:


> No wall receptacle's lower edge less than 50" off the finished floor. 48" high receptacle mounting still gets covered by a 4x8 sheet of plywood leaning against the wall.


Idea stolen...err leveraged. ☺


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## MJJ (Jul 14, 2012)

Winthrop said:


> - I also used the left over radiant floor pipe to route compressed air through the shop at multiple location and into my garage.


Eeeek, not PEX I hope. 

I'm also #many to steal the high outlet idea :thumbsup:


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## jdherndon (Feb 22, 2013)

*To joint or not to joint*

I appreciate the discussion on the jointer question. I have longed for a jointer for years, but after reading the comments about the need for one, I am rethinking this tool. 
I have a decent JET table saw and a number of thin kerf glue line blades that does a pretty good job of straight cuts. Built a maple top workbench with it.


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Other than always needing a bigger shop, I would have purchased a drill press a lot sooner. I have a lot of trouble drilling accurate holes in wood using a power drill. The bit grabs and moves from where I want the hole. Center-punching doesn't work that great on wood.

If I really needed accuracy I would use a pin vise and a smaller bit to locate the hole and then switch to the power drill with a larger bit which would follow the hole pretty accurately.

A drill press really stepped up the quality of my work.

I have a compound table on my miniature drill press and want one for my floor model. But I'm thinking about just buying a mill because I'll have one someday anyway and it's got the table built in.

I just need to a mill that turns higher RPM than average - at least 3K and would really like 5K.


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## Tvinny (Feb 13, 2016)

Years ago, I had one of the nicer Craftsman radial arm saw... all steal. I started with that and a J C Penny's bench top table saw. I replaced the bench top saw with a Powermatic model 66. A couple years later I got rid of the radial arm saw. With the new double compound sliding miter saws... you really don't need such an unsafe tool as a radial arm saw.
I two started out in a two stall garage. My shop now is much bigger. When we moved, I convinced the wife I need to build the shop first, then the house. Saved lots of $'s by building all the cabinets, doing the trim, and building some of the furniture.
The shop was built with living quarters including a full bath, full kitchen, living area and one bedroom. Nice when friends visit! The shop has 10' ceilings, flat concrete floors, plenty of bench space and high output lighting. 
Things I wish I had done differently, a separate finishing room! That may be in the future....
There are some things still in the works... still need to redo the router table built into the table to the right of the blade of the tablesaw and a portable assembly table.
This is a dual purpose shop... I also use it to work on my bikes... hence the bike lift!


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## Jammer (Jul 15, 2009)

I would have bought the 8" jointer and the bandsaw much sooner.

Every time I wreck a piece, there's a smaller piece inside, if you have the equipment to cut it out. I have an endless supply of wrecked pieces.

I wouldn't have spent so much time and energy on the bench, I would have built a torsion box, coated it with high gloss polyurethane, hung a pattern maker's vise on it, and called it good. (People have told me that polyurethane is no good for a bench because stuff will slide on it. Bring your stuff over here, and I'll show you how to clamp it down so it can't get away.)

The biggest change I would have made would have been to buy what we call "tablesaw grade" first.

First I bought a Craftsman tablesaw. Then I bought a DeWalt tablesaw. Then a small contractor saw. Then finally I bought a JET JTAS-10. That was twenty years ago, and I should have just bought the JET first. Now the only question my wife asks when I buy equipment is whether or not it's "tablesaw grade", meaning whether I'm buying a good quality, lifetime saw, or starting another series of Craftsman-DeWalt-crap. She says since I'm going to end up with the JET tablesaw, buy it first.

I'd buy real dust collection much, much sooner. Life gets better when you can breathe. Piping dust collection under the floor and keeping the remote in your apron makes it easy enough that you'll actually use it.

That reminds me, since I have an Omnijig, I have a Rockler dovetail jig for sale, and since I have a Grizzly 8" jointer, I have one of those little aluminum Delta toy jointers for sale. Oh, and the hardware for a tail vise that's been used like twice. And I bought a Craftsman router before I discovered Porter Cable 690s. Come over, root around. If it's a real piece of equipment, I probably want to keep it, but if it's not, it's for sale.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Buying the best tool for the job often includes a higher price. Forty years ago I couldn't have afforded what I bought twenty years later. And then there's product knowledge. The Internet made learning much easier but you still have to know what you need before whittling down your list. Going through tool upgrade is just a natural, and often unavoidable, process.


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## Oakwerks (Mar 24, 2013)

I've had a little Craftsman 4 inch for years.... I always run the edges through it before glue-up....
That's all I've ever used it for.... I'd like a bigger one, but I'm running out of space....


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## CafeenMan (Jan 13, 2015)

Julie Mor said:


> Buying the best tool for the job often includes a higher price. Forty years ago I couldn't have afforded what I bought twenty years later. And then there's product knowledge. The Internet made learning much easier but you still have to know what you need before whittling down your list. Going through tool upgrade is just a natural, and often unavoidable, process.


I was going to say a lot the same thing. I got into wood-working because I make model-building tools from wood. I never expected to take it any farther but I had to make a lot of jigs which required larger tools to make small tools.

I didn't have money so I shopped around and bought what I could afford. I never buy anything that I believe is junk no matter what but a really good contractor saw still isn't a cabinet saw. But it's 1/4th the price and that's how much money I had and needed it at the time.

Now my hobby pays for itself and I can buy better things. My problem now is I've outgrown my space. I can afford a cabinet saw but using a contractor saw in my shop means I have to turn it ninety degrees to make cross-cuts because the shop is so small.

I have a planer, jointer and a large stand in my living room along with a ramp I built so I can roll those items onto the front porch to use them. They don't even fit in my shop.

Obviously I need to move.

But I never expected to get to this place.


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

I would have probably never stepped foot in Harbor Freight, but on the other hand there are things I use from there simply because of my budget which isn't exactly on par with an actual budget. 
I have to look at it like this. If I had my rathers I'd rather not drive across the country in a chevy chevette, but I'd rather drive a chevy chevette than have to walk.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2015)

I would have built a shed for my gas powered stuff, snow blowers, lawn mowers, generators as well as my long handled tools freeing up that garage/shop space.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I don't think a bigger shop is what is really needed by most. The company I work for bought a 200,000 sq ft building 10 times the size we already occupied. We found everybody just spread out and it looks full again. 

I think if most hobby woodworkers just looked at the things their intending to build and the true space needed they would find they can easily get by with far less. 

I have a 500ft garage shop myself and as I started cleaning up as it sat idle for a few years I find there a whole lot of hoarding going on and a lot that has no sq. in. or ft. value.

Too much lumber or hardware I used when it was a cabinet shop I will no longer use.

After you spend many years at woodworking you can easily find a workable shop with flow and a hoarders shops full of stuff better suited at a yard sale or the trash.

I can say this for a fact..... I have too many clamps but will never have enough varieties. That's the kicker...Rebel


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