# Frustrating!! Help finishing a pen !!



## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm starting to turn pens but I'm having trouble applying finish this is how I do it first I sand pen starting at 150 grit and finish with 600 then I apply two coats of medium CA glue (from woodturningz) don't know if brand matter then I sand with micro mesh 1500-12000 at this point the pen is very shiny but you can see swirl marks so I apply meguiars plastic polish and it doesn't remove the swirl marks another problem I've have is that some spots don't take the gloss what am I doing wrong? Any advice is appreciated.


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## Itchytoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Are you wet sanding with the micro mesh, or dry sanding? I've always wet sanded a CA finish. I also take my time and go slowly. I start with 5-6 coats of CA, then probably sand off 2 of them. I spend more time sanding than I'd like to be honest with you, but I've always been happy with the results. Try just slowing down. Lathe at 500 RPM, wet sand, and spend about 30 to 45 seconds with each pad.


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

Hello Erik

Not sure if I had answered this on another forum or not but will post my opinion here too. 

First, not sure what tool you use to finish your turning with but I like to use a skew. What this does is gets me right past the lower grits of sanding and I can apply my CA right away and then MM. But if you feel you need to sand never start with 150. You should be able to start 400 or even 600. BUt no lower than 220. Now when you do this you need to stop the lathe after each grit size and then sand with the grain to get the swirl marks out. This is what you could be seeing when applying CA because that will magnify anything underneath. You then need to wipe the sanding dust off or blow it off before moving onto the next grit size and then repeat. Now you see why I do not sand that low. Alot of extra work.

OK anyway you now got to the point of applying CA. 2 coats is not nearly enough. I always use at least 8 coats of med CA and that is after I seal the wood with 1 or 2 coats of thin CA. You also need to seal the ends and that is why thin is good for this too. Especially if you are wet sading the final finishes. With 2 coats only you will sand through that way too easily. 

OK you now got the many coats of CA on. You need to sand this finish and using MM is a good thing. I recomend wet sanding. It saves the pads and also keeps dust down and acts as a lubricant. Try it works well. 

OK now you got through the MM and you still see swirls. Plastic polish will not take these out. That will just enhance the shine. You need to sand the swirl marks out. Some people buff the swirl marks out and that is another method that takes some learning. Buffing too hard or too much with the wrong paste will eat through the finish real quick. I do not do this. 

Well this is all I have for now. I am sure other will chime in and give their versions but I do hope they answer your questions too. Good luck.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Itchytoe said:


> Are you wet sanding with the micro mesh, or dry sanding? I've always wet sanded a CA finish. I also take my time and go slowly. I start with 5-6 coats of CA, then probably sand off 2 of them. I spend more time sanding than I'd like to be honest with you, but I've always been happy with the results. Try just slowing down. Lathe at 500 RPM, wet sand, and spend about 30 to 45 seconds with each pad.


No I'm dry sanding , one question though do you sand between CA coats? Cause I notice surface gets rough after each coat.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

JTTHECLOCKMAN said:


> Hello Erik
> 
> Not sure if I had answered this on another forum or not but will post my opinion here too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the information , I'm going to try your method tomorrow n see how it comes out one thing I don't understand is what you mean by sealing the edges?


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## joek30296 (Dec 16, 2009)

Check out this Youtube video. It might help...






Joe


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## Gary Beasley (Jan 21, 2009)

The swirl marks are likely from applying the CA, If you are not quick about wiping back and forth you will leave drag marks in the CA. I start with two of thin CA to seal the wood, then four coats of medium starting the wipe from opposite ends each layer. If you see ripples after the last coat add another coat and use a skew flat on the side to take the tops off the ripples till you see it smooth. Don't overdo and cut down to the wood or leave too little to polish up with the micromesh. This is also a good way to even the finish on open pored wood that insists on leaving little dimples no matter how much CA you apply.


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

Apply CA as a finish is a fine art but I think too many people make it harder than it is. First sealing the wood means just that you need to seal the grain of the wood. If you do not do this especially on the ends the water from wet sanding will get under the layer of glue and cause cloudy marks and will not disapear. I take a drop of CA and place it on a board of some sort and dab the ends of the blank in it. I wipe the edges witha paper towel before it dries. Have to be quick or the towel will stick to it.

When you apply the CA don't over wipe it. It is like spalkling a wall. Put the compound on and scrape and walk away. The more you try to be perfect the more things get worse. A couple wipes back and forth is all that is needed. Like I said I let dry naturally and do not use the accelrator. This is a matter of choice but to me that stuff smells worse than the CA. I do not have alot of problems with inhaling or burning eyes as you read alot of people do because, 1 I have my dust collector on behind the lathe which draws the smell away and 2 I am not standing over it for a long time. I go do other things in the shop. I treat working on a pen like working on a masterpiece. Do not rush perfection. People that mass produce and become a pen spitting machine take the fun right out of it and make it a job. Not for me have fun. 

Now after a couple coats if you see a few ripples you can take some 800 grit paper and wet sand real quick. That grit size will not eat so fast into the layers but will smooth the finish out. Dry it off and proced with a few more coats. If it feels rough adding a couple more coats will fill in the voids. MED CA is the way to go. 

Like I said after I have all coats of CA on I let sit overnight to let the CA cure. CA will continue to outgas till it dries. This outgassing can cause cloudiness when you go to sand and polish the blank. People think it is moisture but what you are doing is reheating the CA because of the friction applied when sanding and thus a water sanding will keep cool. 

I am sure you will be back asking how to take the blank off the bushings next because of the buil up. WE will cross that bridge when we get there. Happy finishing.


PS that video link that was provide was for people who fall in love with adding another problem by using BLO. No need for it and it has not been proven to do a thing and I am skeptable that blo actually breaks the CA down. I have no proof because I am not a chemist. But if it was so good why do companies not make CA with blo already in it??? 

Yes there are many ways to apply a CA finish. Heck go to Utube and you will see alot. Do a google search and you will se pdf files with methods. Each of us must take what we read and see and apply it and come up with the method that works for us. But when mastered it sure is a nice finish. Good luck


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## BassBlaster (Nov 21, 2010)

The swirl marks are from applying the CA too slow. Speed up the process a bit. You still will get a few swirl marks. When you start sanding with the MM, be sure to remove all the swirl marks with the first grit. I only wet sand CA, never dry. Once you have the piece smooth, move on through your grits. If youo do it right, there will be no need to use a polishing compound once your done with the MM.


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## Itchytoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Viorato831 said:


> No I'm dry sanding , one question though do you sand between CA coats? Cause I notice surface gets rough after each coat.


I do not sand between coats. When applying it, I'm just trying to get enough on the pen so that I have something to finish. Each layer blends perfectly with the layer before, even if I accidentally leave a swirl or two in the previous coat. It just fills the swirl and I can continue like normal.


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

After putting on a few coats of thin CA (I normally do this after 5 or 6), stop and look at it -- do you see ripples in the surface?

If so, take a piece of 320 grit and using a flat piece of hardwood as a backing block, level the surface. Pause frequently -- when it's completely level, it will all have the same scratched-up quality. Any bright shiny patches are low spots that haven't been touched by the sandpaper -- the goal is to get rid of all of them.

Then I apply maybe 10 more coats of thin CA, and move on to using the micromesh sponge pads wet.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks guys a lot of good ideas. I'll try putting more coats of ca glue and wet sand it . I'll let you guys know the outcome and maybe post some pictures so far I've made 2 pens and have one on the lathe experimenting with the finish process . If anyone else have more tips please chime in and share them.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

These are the results I'm getting eve though I'm putting 4-5 coats of medium CA the problem starts when I begin to MM could it be that the CA hasn't cure yet? What you guys think?


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

1) How long were you waiting after the final coat of CA before you started sanding? Give it at least 30 minutes, an hour if you can.

2) Were you wet-sanding with the micromesh?

3) If you keep going, can you get the entire surface to have that same milky appearance? If you can, wash all the dirty water off, wipe with a paper towel, and then move on to the next finer grade of micromesh. Lather, rinse, repeat.

4) If it's any consolation, your photos look just like the wood that gave me all kinds of trouble (I forget, is it wenge? or bubinga? something like that) and I had to re-finish it 3 or 4 times


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## Mose (Dec 7, 2010)

Are you spraying the CA with an activator to harden it? 

Disclaimer: I haven't read the entire post. 

This is what I do, which was recommended from people on here in one form or fashion. 

End with skew for smooth surface.
sand with 80 spinning
sand with 150 spinning
sand 220 spinning, then with grain
sand 320 spinning, then with grain
sand 600 spinning, then with grain
Look very closely for sanding or tool marks
Apply thin CA (others say they do fine with medium, I use thin) 
each coat gets a quick spritz of activator then next coat
I use 5-8 coats depending if I loose count and how it looks
wet sand with 800 spinning
wet sand with 1200 spinning
wet sand with 1500 spinning
Polish with CA polish

My finishes are good, but if set side by side with Whaler or someone like that it would be apparent I have a lot more to learn, but I'm moving in that direction. 

I have seen some clouding like that on some other projects, but usually on a ridge or something where it looks like the wet sanding did just a little to much, meaning I put to much pressure on that spot. 

Good luck.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

duncsuss said:


> 1) How long were you waiting after the final coat of CA before you started sanding? Give it at least 30 minutes, an hour if you can.
> 
> 2) Were you wet-sanding with the micromesh?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response ... I waited about 5 min after the last CA coat then started sanding with MM I see all people in youtube doing this all the time sanding right after the last coat. I'll try to give it more time to dry. 

2. Yes I was wet sanding

3. I think so the thing is that if I keep going in going to mess up the CA layer underneath and so on till I get to bare wood. What I'm thinking is maybe skip the corse MM grits and move to 3000 on. 

4. The wood I'm using is cocobolo I heard people also have trouble finishing this wood


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

other suggestions ...

1) lathe speed -- slowest setting, at least for the first 2 or 3 micromesh grits (don't want to wear through the surface), then you can crank it up to a middle speed when you're in the finer grades

2) don't squeeze tight -- use a very light touch, sliding up and down the length of the blank

3) keep a spray bottle of water on hand, spritz it to make sure there's plenty of water on there (yes it will splatter -- that's why you wear a face shield :laughing


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## Whaler (Mar 9, 2011)

My procedure varies a bit from the others.
I start sanding at 220 or 320 depending on how good my final cut is and go to 600.
Then using a piece of blue shop towel I put on a drop of walnut oil and a couple drops of med CA and apply it at about 1600 rpm and go for 6 to 8 coats. Then it goes to the Beale buffing system. At times I can just use the white diamond and wax wheels other times I do have to start with the tripoli. After assembly it gets a coat of Ren wax.
No accelerator, no sanding between coats and no MM.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Mose said:


> Are you spraying the CA with an activator to harden it?
> 
> Disclaimer: I haven't read the entire post.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mose.. I'm using an activator .. Ive tracked down the clouding and is caused by the sanding Before I start sanding (MM)the finish looks good no scratches or clouding but is not very shiny... as I mentioned before as soon as I start MM the last coat of CA it starts to peel off I still don't know why is that I wonder if it's the CA I use ??


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Just an update: I was able to get rid of the clouding by avoiding the CA activator .. Pen came out ok but You can see very light scratches probably due to the MM sanding or the paper towel I used to apply the polish . How can I get rid of those? I applied plastic polish and finish with renaissance wax is that who it's done??


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

Well you know my method of applying CA so I won't go into that again. I do believe anyone who finishes up with a skew should never have to start sanding with 80 grit paper. Man that is extra work for nothing gained. 600 or 800 grit to just even things up and alot of times I don't even bother. When I did those segmented pens I shown, not one piece of sandpaper hit them. 

With that said you will need to find your own method but i can give you some more pointers. The wood you are using is an oily wood. I would wipe the blank down after all the sanding is done with acetone and let dry. I would then seal the wood with a coat or 2 of thin CA. As I mentioned it is imperative to seal the ends of the blank also so that when you wet sand the water does not get under the CA by wicking through the ends. 

I do not like the use of accelorator as I had mentioned in previous post. You must know if the accelorator is compatable with the CA you are using. All CA glue is not the same as some would believe. Fogging will most likely be caused by moisture. The CA has not had sufficient time to dry. It is still outgassing. 

When MM the first few grits will cause the blank to dull but will continue to get shiny as you go up in grit size or actually down in grit size depending how you want to look at it.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

JTTHECLOCKMAN said:


> Well you know my method of applying CA so I won't go into that again. I do believe anyone who finishes up with a skew should never have to start sanding with 80 grit paper. Man that is extra work for nothing gained. 600 or 800 grit to just even things up and alot of times I don't even bother. When I did those segmented pens I shown, not one piece of sandpaper hit them.
> 
> With that said you will need to find your own method but i can give you some more pointers. The wood you are using is an oily wood. I would wipe the blank down after all the sanding is done with acetone and let dry. I would then seal the wood with a coat or 2 of thin CA. As I mentioned it is imperative to seal the ends of the blank also so that when you wet sand the water does not get under the CA by wicking through the ends.
> 
> ...


 I finish my last pen with the skew and sure does speed thing up . Do you think mineral spirits would work instead of acetone ? This time I did seal the wood but since I don't have thin CA I used medium and I think it worked fine I will order one though as for the accelerator I've order a different one see how that one works. Do you get those light scratches after you finish your pen? Is there a way to avoid/get rid of them? Once again I appreciate your help.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

This is what I'm talking about


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## Itchytoe (Dec 17, 2011)

Looks to me like you need to use the micro mesh again. Are you getting those swirls around the whole perimeter, or just on one side of the pen? If it's just one side, you may be using a bent mandril, which is leading to you only getting the sanding and MM to most, but not all, of the pen. The little that's left is the swirly region you see. Is there any vibration in the bushings, or are they dead smooth while turning?


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Itchytoe said:


> Looks to me like you need to use the micro mesh again. Are you getting those swirls around the whole perimeter, or just on one side of the pen? If it's just one side, you may be using a bent mandril, which is leading to you only getting the sanding and MM to most, but not all, of the pen. The little that's left is the swirly region you see. Is there any vibration in the bushings, or are they dead smooth while turning?


Yes I'm getting those swirl around the whole pen I think the mandrel / bushings are ok


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Viorato831 said:


> No I'm dry sanding , one question though do you sand between CA coats? Cause I notice surface gets rough after each coat.


If you are having rough areas it sounds like the glue is building up because your not applying it correctly. I use paper towel squares folded a few times and while it's spinning (higher speeds) apply a small dot on the paper towel and wipe across one side repeat for the other side then hit it with accelerator. Then do another coat the same way. I do not use the same area of the paper towel for the next coat. I fold it over or replace it. I also will sand after 3 coats because even applied right will leave some area's that can build up and cause problems. I apply probably a min of 6 layers of Med CA. If it gets rough your usually better off sanding through the CA and starting over so try and get it to lay flat and even.

I start with 150 grit sand while spinning and go through 600. You have to stop and sand length wise after each grit to remove ridges. Then I use MM 1500 -12000, then canuba wax and finally a polishing compound.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

rrbrown said:


> If you are having rough areas it sounds like the glue is building up because your not applying it correctly. I use paper towel squares folded a few times and while it's spinning (higher speeds) apply a small dot on the paper towel and wipe across one side repeat for the other side then hit it with accelerator. Then do another coat the same way. I do not use the same area of the paper towel for the next coat. I fold it over or replace it. I also will sand after 3 coats because even applied right will leave some area's that can build up and cause problems. I apply probably a min of 6 layers of Med CA. If it gets rough your usually better off sanding through the CA and starting over so try and get it to lay flat and even.
> 
> I start with 150 grit sand while spinning and go through 600. You have to stop and sand length wise after each grit to remove ridges. Then I use MM 1500 -12000, then canuba wax and finally a polishing compound.


What grit do you sand with after the 3 coats? I notice it gets worse when I sand the CA I get Clouding and dull spots . The only way I could avoid this was not using the accelerator and skipping the first 3 MM , but like I said I get a shiny finish with these light scratches/swirls I'm guessing it's the MM.. ??? See the pictures so you can see what I mean. Thanks


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Viorato831 said:


> What grit do you sand with after the 3 coats? I notice it gets worse when I sand the CA I get Clouding and dull spots . The only way I could avoid this was not using the accelerator and skipping the first 3 MM , but like I said I get a shiny finish with these light scratches/swirls I'm guessing it's the MM.. ??? See the pictures so you can see what I mean. Thanks



Light pass with 800 or 1000 depends on what I see.


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## Chrome (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi All,

Been reading this thread with interest, and watched the video too. I'm sorry to interrupt this thread, but I'm just starting turning and pens really interest me. 

However I have a couple of stupid questions. What does CA and MM mean? I'm in the UK, so it may be brands I'm not familiar with, or does it mean Contact Adhesive?

I want to build a complete pen making set up, and can understand the basics of the pen hardware, but I'm confused as to what tools, finishes and liquids etc. I would need in addition to my lathe. Can anyone give me a list of everything I would need to get started please?


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## Mose (Dec 7, 2010)

Clockman, That is amazing you do that work without sanding, awesome. I think you're right, I was starting with 80 before I could use a skew at all, and haven't changed but could probably start at a higher grit now.

OP, Looks like you are getting closer with every post. Good post for the rest of us to learn from. Good luck.


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## dsurette (May 19, 2007)

I used to have similar problems until I learned the importance of sanding lengthwise with the lathe stopped between grits. You also could try a product called Abranet instead of sandpaper. It's a little expensive but it almost never wears out, can be cleaned and works great wet.


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

Mose said:


> Clockman, That is amazing you do that work without sanding, awesome. I think you're right, I was starting with 80 before I could use a skew at all, and haven't changed but could probably start at a higher grit now.
> 
> OP, Looks like you are getting closer with every post. Good post for the rest of us to learn from. Good luck.


 
Mose

Yes I don't mean to be negative but if you are finishing with a skew you should go right to CA or at least start at 600 to 800 grit paper. To me why sand at all unless you have uneven spots. You are introducing more scratches and swirls and starting at 80 grit those are pretty deep. By the time you get them out working the steps up you now have decreased the diameter of the blank and you will need to build the CA up. If I used sandpaper on the segmented blanks I mentioned I would get so much cross contamination the lighter colored woods would be a disaster. 


CA stands for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate There are many brands of this super glue which at times is what it is called.

MM stands for micromesh. This is a sanding pad that comes in colored pads and each pad is a particular grit. Pen makers use these for their final sanding of finishes to bring to a high shine. http://www.pennstateind.com/store/micromesh-sheets.html


Being from the UK you may want to check this site out. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=161 I am sure they will be able to help you find what you need over there. 

As far as the OP goes. I do not use mineral spirits for cleaning. It has a waterbase and an oily base. To me you are adding the very thing you want out. 

The scratches you see are sanding scratches. When using the MM do not skip the lower grits because they are what set the foundation of the rest of the pads. Yes they will dull the finish because the grits are courser but as you go up it will polish out. Now it is hard to tell if the swirls started with your sanding before MM. But when ever you sand wood always stop the lathe and go with the grain of the wood. Wipe the blank down and proced to next grit size. Do this with the MM pads for the first 3 or 4 grits also. The harder and slower you push on the pads the deeper the scratches are going to be. Keep the pad moving side to side and keep wet which helps lubricate the sanding slurry. You should notice for the first few grits a sanding slurry and that is normal. Depending if you applied enough coats of CA you will not sand through this. But even though you are using med CA you still need to apply a decent layer of CA. That is why I like a min. of 8 coats. I know I can't sand through that. 

Good luck you are getting closer. When you find that sweet spot of finishing you will be very happy with the results. Now of course along the way you will run into problem woods and weather conditions that will change the playing field but good luck.


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## PhilipCollier (Jan 2, 2012)

CA IS Cyanoacrilate (spell?) glue...basically a form of superglue or super glue is a form of it...MM is Micro Mesh...a sanding material that goes from 1500 grit to 12000 grit.


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## PhilipCollier (Jan 2, 2012)

Jt beat me to it  and is a better speller.


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

PhilipCollier said:


> Jt beat me to it  and is a better speller.


By milliseconds:laughing:


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## Mose (Dec 7, 2010)

Clockman,

No negativity taken, it's good pointers for me and everyone else reading. Maybe I'll give it a try this week. 

I think we're all waiting for a tutorial on those segmented pens because they are incredible.


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## Viorato831 (Dec 28, 2011)

Just an update guys ... I Finished a test piece and it came out real nice (I think )... Im not able to see any scratches or clouding I followed everyones methods and sure helped I'm going to try now another pen and hopefully I get it right I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Chrome (Oct 21, 2011)

JTTHECLOCKMAN said:


> Being from the UK you may want to check this site out. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=161 I am sure they will be able to help you find what you need over there.


Thanks for your help JT much appreciated... and that is a really informative forum you linked, BUT it's further away than you guys, as it's based in Australia!! :laughing:

Best, Chrome


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## JTTHECLOCKMAN (Dec 31, 2011)

Chrome said:


> Thanks for your help JT much appreciated... and that is a really informative forum you linked, BUT it's further away than you guys, as it's based in Australia!! :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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