# How big to oversize blanks?



## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

I pick up my new planer tomorrow, the used jointer I purchased is in the shop and operational and I'm going to make a small cabinet for my travel trailer as a first project.

So assuming I'm getting rough cut maple from the lumber yard and I want to end up with 6/4 wide strips for my face frame, how wide is my first cut? Is there a rule of thumb on this? I figure I need to remove some on the jointer to make the first sides flat then some on the planer to make it square then sanding.

Would 7/4 be wide enough to start with or should I go 15/8?

Question 2: Would you rip 4/4 thick maple down with your table saw or a band saw? I'm unclear what advantage either may have on the other.

JayArr


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

15/8? It's usually 6/4- 8/4. I don't know Ithey offer a 7/4.

We usually buy 8/4 for 1 3/4...


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## NoNails (Jun 6, 2016)

My ripping would be on the table saw.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

The boards I'm buying are rough milled 1" thick, (4/4?) and they are anywhere from 4" to 8" wide depending on what I grab from the pile.

I want finished pieces 1 1/2" wide and 3/4" thick.

I figured I would cut them either about 1 3/4" wide (7/4?) or a little bigger 1 7/8" wide (15/8?) to allow for the jointer, planer and sanding. 

Knowing how wide I need to cut them helps to reduce waste when picking boards, if 7/4 will do I need boards at least 5 1/2" wide to get three blanks, at 15/8 I need them 6" wide.

Maple is expensive (or I'm cheap, that depends on the viewpoint) so I want minimal leftover and I especially don't want to end up with 7 feet of board that's 1/8" too small.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I would get atleast 6" wide boards if I'm picking. Usually getting stock from a cabinet supply shop they will usually run it down to 13/16. I can't select boards from my distributor. I can go to metro hardwoods amd do so, but there I'm limited to what's in the rack already down to 13/16..


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

My hardwood lumber place doesn't go below 4/4 rough cut so I'll have to reduce that to 3/4 myself. 

Is 1/4" over finished size going to leave enough material for jointing, planing and sanding?

If I start with a rough blank 1 3/4" x 1" can I get to 1 1/2" x 3/4" finished?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

4/4 is planed to 13/16. Then sanded to 3/4 . If your doing a face frame leave it 13/16 assemble and then sand the joints. 

Same way for doors..


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

JayArr said:


> I pick up my new planer tomorrow, the used jointer I purchased is in the shop and operational and I'm going to make a small cabinet for my travel trailer as a first project.
> 
> So assuming I'm getting rough cut maple from the lumber yard and *I want to end up with 6/4 wide strips *for my face frame, how wide is my first cut? Is there a rule of thumb on this? I figure I need to remove some on the jointer to make the first sides flat then some on the planer to make it square then sanding.
> 
> ...


We must be clear on the thickness VS the width. The quality of the rough sawn boards will determine whether there are curved edges or twist that must be corrected before doing anything else. Start with jointing a straight edge and making a flat face to determine what the next step will be. I typically plane to thickness before ripping to width, planing equally amounts off each side to equalize the stresses.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Normally to yield maximum thickness you would rip before jointing or planing.

I can get 1" finished out of my suppliers 4/4 poplar in whole board widths, but can just eek out 1" (usually 0.985" or so) ripping to 2.125" in their soft maple.

If your lengths are short and your supplier cuts heavy you could get 1.5 out of 6/4. If the lengths you need are long or the supplier cuts light then you need 8/4.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

I'm getting a little confused.

I'm ripping down from a 1" x 6" board, why would I jump from 6/4 to 8/4? I can cut 7/4 if I want to.

It's always going to be 1" thick when rough, if I can't get from 1" rough to 3/4" dressed I need a new plan.

I'm just asking if I can get from rough to dressed in 1/4".

Will 1" x 1 3/4" rough yield 3/4" x 1 1/2" dressed?


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

@JayArr In your statement ...."Would 7/4 be wide enough to start with or should I go 15/8?"...............

using quarters as in 4/4 or 6/4 is a measurement used in 'thickness' only, not in width. Length and width are measured in inches/feet or mm/meters if using the metric system. When most of us buy hardwood lumber we usually buy 8/4 (2") or 6/4 (1 1/2") or 4/4 (1"). I dont believe that they normally cut to 7/4 " (1 3/4") but they will do anything you want. If they receive the lumber at 8/4 and you want 7/4, they will charge you for the full 8/4 plus an additional fee for the extra milling
I'm not sure but i believe that the 4/4 or 1" lumber is the sawmill cut dimension. When it is dried,and then planed, it is down 3/4" thick. And I'm sticking to that story.
Some hardwood yards seem to oversize the lumber slightly so that when they plane 4/4 stock for instance, it actually can measure 1 inch or real close to it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Usually 4/4 is 1" in the rough from the mill. Hard to get 1" from it cleaned up...


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> using quarters as in 4/4 or 6/4 is a measurement used in 'thickness' only, not in width.


OK, That helps, I didn't know that, thanks.

I only know one hardwood yard but I've purchased there a few times and I get 4/4 boards that are rough cut, you can see the saw marks, they haven't been planed down and they actually measure 1"


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Does that mean that 4/4 isn't always 1"? 

Crap that's like 2x4s being 1.5 x 3.5, I thought 4/4 boards were always 1" thick.

Whoever made up these names for lumber must have had a small dick and a compulsion to name things larger than actual size. LOL


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

JayArr said:


> ...............Will 1" x 1 3/4" rough yield 3/4" x 1 1/2" dressed?


Normally the 1" thickness (4/4) will be milled down to 3/4" if you dont specify to leave it a little thicker. 
The 1 3/4" width is kinda unusual unless that is what you specify. Normally, a hardwoods dealer will not have anything that slim unless you ask for it and they will charge you for the extra width that they had to cut it down from plus the cutting. 
Buying hardwoods from a hardwoods yard is not the same as Home Depot. The boards are not cut to any particular size. They are purchased as "random lengths and widths" - the way it comes from the tree and then run through the sawmill. Generally, these boards will be around 6 - 8" wide and anywhere between 10' and 16' long. You pay for eacch board by the 'board foot'. A board foot is the mathematical equivalent of 12" length x 12" width x 1" thickness or 144 cubic inches. 
Most times, the yard will have each board marked with chalk as to the amount of board feet in that particular board. That way, if you know the price per board foot you can just multiply that price by the amount of board feet of that board. it helps prevents 'sticker shock ' at the register.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> Usually 4/4 is 1" in the rough from the mill. Hard to get 1" from it cleaned up...


I've never had a supplier provide rough 4/4 at 1". Its usually 1.125 to 1.25 rough.. the 5/4 i get runs about 1.375 and occasionally 1.5", with the S2s 5/4 being around 1.210" or so. 

My last load of 12' 4/4 poplar that finished at .980. Full board widths 6 to 10". Perfectly clear, no cup, bow, twist or wayne, perfect for moulding blanks. Same supplier sells 7/4 Quarter sawn poplar for passage door construction.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Love your sense of humor, but the 4/4 is the normal size before planing. You will have to pay by the board foot when purchasing, then extra for the milling/planing and also if you want a straight line rip - on good edge. 
The milling is also in a foreign language. Each surface that gets milled is an "S". If you want it planed on one side only that is called 'surface 1 side'. If you want both sides planed that is S2S or Surface 2 Sides. if you also want it straight line ripped, that is S3S. All the way around is S4S. Most hardwood yards cant just surface 1 side. The large planers usually plane top and bottom surfaces at the same time. Each step you take has a cost. Not really a whole lot more compared to the initial sticker shock. When I did it for a living, I usually had everything done to S3S. because the guys that worked for me would cost me more to do it in my own shop. 
This is not the whole story, but it will give you the general idea.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

I don't think my lumber yard works the same as yours Tony, I just go wander into the warehouse and pick the boards I want off the pile. The piles are just stacks of lumber from the sawmill. Tomorrow I'll go select boards from the pile of Maple that is all 7 feet long. The girl on the forklift just measures the end of each board, adds those numbers together and multiplies it by the length writes it on my slip. Then I load them into my SUV and I go pay for XX amount of Maple/Poplar/Oak. They don't plane or rip or do anything to the boards and they aren't marked ahead of time. I drive away with rough cut lumber. and what they cal 4/4 is actually 1" thick.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Actually, they do work the same. The girl on the forklift is measuring and calculating the board feet. Remember the length x width x thickness? She is doing the work at the time you are there. Where I go, it is done ahead of time using the same measuring technique. The only difference is they dont mill at your place. I also said the 4/4 is 1" thick -* unmilled. *That is the standard of the industry. Sometimes where I go it is slightly over 1" thick. And between 6% to 8% moisture content..


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

We don't buy 4/4 boards for the cabinet shops. We buy 13/16 planed from 4/4.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Rebelwork said:


> We don't buy 4/4 boards for the cabinet shops. We buy 13/16 planed from 4/4.


I believe that you are buying 4/4 in that you are paying for 4/4 and they are planing it to 13/16


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

JayArr said:


> The boards I'm buying are rough milled 1" thick, (4/4?) and they are anywhere from 4" to 8" wide depending on what I grab from the pile.
> 
> I want finished pieces 1 1/2" wide and 3/4" thick.
> 
> ...


Maple is known for having a lot of movement. I use quite a bit of it. I use more soft maple than hard maple. Hard maple moves more than soft does. Others may disagree, but this is what I have always done and it works for me. I joint one face, square an edge. Make a pass or two through the planer and parallel the opposite edge on the table saw (S4S). I then sticker the wood over night. The following day I repeat the entire process bringing the stock to final dimension.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

JayArr said:


> The boards I'm buying are rough milled 1" thick, (4/4?) and they are anywhere from 4" to 8" wide depending on what I grab from the pile.
> 
> I want finished pieces 1 1/2" wide and 3/4" thick.
> 
> ...


Always do your planning before you do your ripping. That way you will have fewer pieces to plane and you will possible do a better planning job on he wider pieces.

I very seldom have any reason to have a reason to make my rip cut to a size other than final.

George


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i typically allow 1/16 for clean up per face. so if i joint an edge or face, then resaw or rip, i add 1/16". you can get into trouble if your board warps before you get to use it. your first rip will usually tell you that.

i hope the boards your getting are dried - do you have/use a moisture meter?


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

my experience say you should plane down the full width boards as step one.
you'll see/find any knots/wanes/defects - which can definitely affect how to get the best yield from the rough sawn.
you'll also get a much better take on grain / coloration / etc - which is handy if you're trying to use, or avoid . . .

if you chop it all up into little pieces first, any blips (usually) means tossing that piece.
there is also the issue of planer snipe. if it happens on a 10' board, you lose 3-4 inches off the end.
if the board is cut to (rough) length, you lose 3-4 inches off every piece....


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## Bob Bengal (Jan 2, 2021)

I just started buying from a lumber yard last summer, still barely more than a raw beginner at it. Have a DW735 planer and small table saw with a good out feed table. For "jointing" I use a screw in each end of the board to put it on a straight piece of 8 foot ply, an extended fence on the saw.

I end up with about .8" or a little more from 4/4. When I bring a load (60ish BF in a Subaru Crosstrek lol) home I lightly plane each face before putting it in storage so I can better see the grain etc when selecting for a project.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

TomCT2 said:


> my experience say you should plane down the full width boards as step one.
> you'll see/find any knots/wanes/defects - which can definitely affect how to get the best yield from the rough sawn.
> you'll also get a much better take on grain / coloration / etc - which is handy if you're trying to use, or avoid . . .
> 
> ...


The problem with jointing or planing before ripping for something where the end part is considerable narrower and shorter than the board, is the danger of taking too much thickness off initially. This is obviously dependent on how flat the and thick board is to start with, in addition to the desired finished thickness. This is more relevant when jointing wider boards with cup where one could loose a significant thickness getting the inital face flat.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Thanks All, this is a ton of great advice!

I'm going to ask today if this lumber yard will mill down the wood as Tony suggests, not for today's load but for future projects, it would certainly be a lot easier for them to do on their big equipment than me with my hobby sized. Maybe I can order up 100 board feet of s4s maple and pick it up all dressed but not ripped.



> Make a pass or two through the planer and parallel the opposite edge on the table saw (S4S). I then sticker the wood over night. The following day I repeat the entire process bringing the stock to final dimension.


good advice, I'll try this.



> I very seldom have any reason to have a reason to make my rip cut to a size other than final.


Now that I think about it I realize that there is no reason to joint or plane the ripped edge, I don't know why I thought I needed extra material to plane off on those edges. Duh!



> there is also the issue of planer snipe. if it happens on a 10' board, you lose 3-4 inches off the end.
> if the board is cut to (rough) length, you lose 3-4 inches off every piece....


Ah yes, planer snipe. I don't know how bad this new planer is going to be or if I can adjust it to minimize it. good point on doing the planing before the cutting!

I don't have a moisture meter, maybe I can pick one up when I pick up the planer.


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

JayArr said:


> Now that I think about it I realize that there is no reason to joint or plane the ripped edge, I don't know why I thought I needed extra material to plane off on those edges. Duh!


Jointing after ripping does 2 things.
1. Removes saw marks
2. Ensures a flat edge. Wood moves when ripped.

Some will run the parts edge up through a planer to ensure a clean 4th edge and a exactly sized (in width) part


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

Jar944_2 said:


> The problem with jointing or planing before ripping for something where the end part is considerable narrower and shorter than the board, is the danger of taking too much thickness off initially. This is obviously dependent on how flat the and thick board is to start with, in addition to the desired finished thickness. This is more relevant when jointing wider boards with cup where one could loose a significant thickness getting the inital face flat.


all the ends I've found on the rough sawn I've bought are indeed shorter than the board itself.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

You may or may not know this.... ripping a board with the standard length table saw fence will NOT make a curved edge straight, straighter maybe, but not glue line straight. First off, it's not really safe to run a convex or a concave edged board on the fence because either way the board will shift or change positions and may bind the blade causing a kickback. ONLY a straight line jig should be used to straighten a curved edge. Further, a warped board that does not sit exactly flat on the table may also rock or twist binding the blade causing a kickback. I joint one face and straighten one edge before ripping ... ALWAYS!
Planing a warped or twisted board will not untwist it either because what ever the bottom is like, the top will be roughly the same. That's because the cutterhead is above the table at a fixed and predetermined height, unlike a jointer where the cutterhead is below the work.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

B Coll said:


> Maple is known for having a lot of movement. I use quite a bit of it. I use more soft maple than hard maple. Hard maple moves more than soft does. Others may disagree, but this is what I have always done and it works for me. I joint one face, square an edge. Make a pass or two through the planer and parallel the opposite edge on the table saw (S4S). I then sticker the wood over night. The following day I repeat the entire process bringing the stock to final dimension.


Underscoring what @B Coll said: A few months ago (last summer or early fall) I was rip cutting a board on the table saw. The board released a lot of force that was pent up in the wood. The kerf closed up around the blade so tight that it stopped the blade and I could not continue the cut. It took a lot of effort to pry the board off the blade. It was the first and only time I have encountered anything close to that much resistance and a pinch like that. Despite using a jointer sled to clean it up and try again, the wood in the board kept moving after every cut and was unsalvageable. 

The board was maple.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

TomCT2 said:


> *all the ends* I've found on the rough sawn I've bought are indeed shorter than the board itself.


How can the "ends" of the board be shorter than the board itself The end of the board is exactly that, the end. You must mean "thinner" , not shorter?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Underscoring what @B Coll said: A few months ago (last summer or early fall) I was rip cutting a board on the table saw. The board released a lot of force that was pent up in the wood. The kerf closed up around the blade so tight that it stopped the blade and I could not continue the cut. It took a lot of effort to pry the board off the blade. It was the first and only time I have encountered anything close to that much resistance and a pinch like that. Despite using a jointer sled to clean it up and try again, the wood in the board kept moving after every cut and was unsalvageable.
> 
> The board was maple.


That's "reaction wood" and it occurs in trees that grow with a severe twist. You can tell by the back on the outside looking like a spiral up the tree. I've had that happen only a few times, and sure enough, you can't hardly pry the board off the blade.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

Just to close this out. I bought 4/4 maple boards and I was wrong about them not being planed. It appears they are passed through a planer at exactly 4/4 and anthing smaller has the saw marks still showing. I guess I focused on the saw marks in the last load.

I jointed one edge and one face of one board and then ran it through the planer to end up with S3S. I don't need the fourth edge since I'm cutting this down into 1 1/2" rails and stiles and I expect a piece of 1/2" scrap at the end.

It has all worked fairly well.

Then the wife changed the plans. I'll start a new thread for the next set of questions.


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