# Cabinet style table saw



## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok guys I bet this topic has been covered but I can't seem to find a good thread on it. I need to step up to a bigger more robust saw than the one I have. I have the Craftsman 21833 hybrid. I have had to replace the arbor and bearings and they are making noise again. I really need something with a little more quality and maybe more hp. 

I need to know what brands and models I should look at. I think I will stay in the 10" saws and cabinet style as I will have no need to move it once it's in place. 

I can probably spend between a grand and two grand. I can step up to 220 if I need to as I am installing a larger breaker panel in my house/shop anyway. I know the one I have can be converted to 220 also.

I would like to be able to build a bench around it with room to cut long and/or wide pieces. thanks


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Go for the grizzly 1023 5 horse. Needs a 220 hook up - great saw ............... unless you can find a good deal on a used older saw on CL. You'll love the Griz

HJ


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok I will look that saw up. Not even going to go the CL route if I don't have to. Rather have a new one. We are using it in our small 4 man shop. We run lots of wood through every day so we needed to step up to a better saw for that much use.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

A grizzly 1023 would be a great choice, although I doubt the 5hp is needed If you've been making out fine with 1.75. The 3 hp route should be enough. B


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Bigger is better - for $20 more get the 5 horse, especially if it's going to be running steady. It should last longer not having to work as hard. Either one would work, but since we're spending your money (even if it's only $20), get the 5 horse. Down the road you'll either wish you had or glad you did.

HJ

Get the most when you can.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

That is a nice saw. I saw lots more there with extensions on them. Might go that route as well. But Grizzly is a good brand it looks like from what I have researched. Anyone else have any favorite brands or models? thanks


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I'd recommend a sawstop....but you'll be outside your budget with that. If this is in a commercial shop, you might check with your insurer if there's a discount for upgrading to one. I've read a few stories where insurance companies have covered part of the cost of a sawstop in commercial venues.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Yep it is outside our budget. Our insurance does not pay for any of that but they do offer a better rate for one vs any other saw. guy could not tell me how much though. I have a friend that works at a place that has those and he said they are a pain. If the wood has too high a moisture content it blows the lock and it costs about $80 bucks to replace the cartridge or whatever it is. Not ready for all that. To do so would mean having an extra one handy so we would not be down for a while going to get one. Gonna have to stay with something without that on it.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

$80 for the cartridge and how ever much to replace the blade as well.


You can get a 3hp Jet for $2,300, a little over your budget but 3hp Deltas and Powermatics start at closer to $3k.

The Grizz is probably the best deal.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I've heard Powermatic was good but never heard anything about the Jet ones. My budget is flexible right now while I'm building my shop. I can spend a little more here or there it just slows something down in another place. But I think from what I've read here the table saw is the heart of the shop. 

I just bought a Dewalt 12" SCMS and built a bench around it. Then I built a bench along the wall as an extension. I put casters on the saw bench but screwed it to the wall. Next upgrade has got to be the table saw. I've been happy with the Craftsman 21833 with the exception of the bearings and arbor going out twice now. Gotta replace them whether I keep it or sell it. Plus short term I will have to anyway. But since this is a business with 4 people plus myself counting on it for a full time paycheck I have to have a saw I can count on day in day out. That's why I am going to read every comment and make a decision based on you guys opinions.

I wish I could step up to a 12" saw for less than 2 grand but I don't think I can.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

The Griz G1023RL ($1424 shipped) or G0690, or some variation of those are about the best value going on a 3-5 hp cabinet saw. 3hp is a pretty substantial jump from 1.75hp


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

notskot said:


> The Griz G1023RL ($1424 shipped) or G0690, or some variation of those are about the best value going on a 3-5 hp cabinet saw. 3hp is a pretty substantial jump from 1.75hp


wow $99 freight is great.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Go Grizzly!*

My experience with the Grizzly line has been just great. 
The fit and finish is very good, the power is fine and tech service is better than most.

http://www.grizzly.com/search?s=category:Tablesaws&rankBy=price:ascending

Shop for your saw on this link, 3 HP or 5Hp, 10" or 12" any combination. For a full time shop running lots of 3" stock I would get the 5 HP. For employees with not a lot of experience, I would drop down to a 3 HP. My 5 HP Powermatic 12" is "scary" powerful and I have about 50 years behind a table saw.... just sayin' 

You best safety item besides the blade guard is a proper outfeed table... no rollers, no stands, just a support that won't move. Also wider than your most anticipated sheet goods in need of ripping. Small pieces that are "handy" to reach over and around the blade are a huge hazzard, if the blade guard is off for any reason. :yes:


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> My experience with the Grizzly line has been just great.
> The fit and finish is very good, the power is fine and tech service is better than most.
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/search?s=category:Tablesaws&rankBy=price:ascending
> ...


All this is good information. The only two that will be running the table saw will be me and my 30 year old son. We both have been around power equipment for a long time. I have about 2 and a half years behind this table saw but the last year and a half has been every day all day. He has far less but is used to running chain saws and knows and understands the danger. The guards NEVER come off our saw unless a cut absolutely requires it. The kickback thing stays in place at all times as well. 

We have a table behind the saw to catch long pieces as well. But I planned a much larger table to cut larger pieces. We make a lot of coffee tables and being able to cut them on the table saw would help.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Then it's settled. 5 horse is the way to go. Let us know when you get it and a pic when its' set up with you standing by it smiling. You won't regret it.

HJ

Loves spending other peoples money


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

*beats head against wall* 

What thicknesses are you usually running through the saw??


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> *beats head against wall*
> 
> What thicknesses are you usually running through the saw??



I run SPF that is 1.375" thick about 90% of the time. I use a Diablo 60 tooth blade or a 50 tooth sometimes. I also run the same SPF through sometimes at 2.5" thick. Nothing thicker than that ever. No hard woods ever either.

We never run it through too fast but the small motor on this saw will bog down sometimes.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Are you usually ripping or crosscutting??


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## PhilBa (Jun 30, 2014)

I have a 3HP G1023 - 6 months now and still really like it. It has plenty of power - rips 8/4 Jatoba (very dense wood) no problem with an Amana blade. I'm not in love with the DC on it but doubt any saw does much better without above table DC. The fence is pretty good but not insanely great.

What ever you get, as part of your budget I suggest you factor in hold downs/feather boards/pushers. I have board buddies, magna feather board and grrripers. They all come in handy and make the saw a lot safer plus allow more precise work.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Are you usually ripping or crosscutting??


Ripping more than 90% of the time. Some cross cutting every now and then. Still all SPF. But if I get a bigger table around the saw I want to crosscut table blanks.

Generally I rip a 2x6 down to 5.25" on one side then down to 5" on the other side and then glue up.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok...so do yourself a favor and buy a 24 or 30 tooth ripping blade. I'd bet even on your current saw you'd eliminate the bogging. If you buy the right blade, SYP under 2 inches will be like butter on 3 hp.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

VIFmike said:


> I've heard Powermatic was good but never heard anything about the Jet ones. My budget is flexible right now while I'm building my shop. I can spend a little more here or there it just slows something down in another place. But I think from what I've read here the table saw is the heart of the shop.
> 
> I just bought a Dewalt 12" SCMS and built a bench around it. Then I built a bench along the wall as an extension. I put casters on the saw bench but screwed it to the wall. Next upgrade has got to be the table saw. I've been happy with the Craftsman 21833 with the exception of the bearings and arbor going out twice now. Gotta replace them whether I keep it or sell it. Plus short term I will have to anyway. But since this is a business with 4 people plus myself counting on it for a full time paycheck I have to have a saw I can count on day in day out. That's why I am going to read every comment and make a decision based on you guys opinions.
> 
> I wish I could step up to a 12" saw for less than 2 grand but I don't think I can.





You need to be a little more specific. First it was a max budget of $2K and now its "flexible".

I dont say that to sound like a d!ck, but general WW'ers rule of thumb for tools (especially a TS) is get the most you can afford. 

For what you describe in your situation, with no restraints, Id get a new Unisaw or PM 2000 all decked out.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I have a 40 tooth blade also. I was just liking the smoother edges. I might need to get a new blade. The 40 tooth I had on there for well over a year and it still cut well. 

As far as cost goes I have a budget for the saw but I can prolong buying something for the building if I have to. Sort of like if some major machine went down in your shop that you can't afford to replace. You have to get the money somewhere. That somewhere for me is next week's budget for the building like some decking or shingles etc. My max is $2K and I'd really like it to be much less. But I also understand that a good saw will set me back at least $1400 or more.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Pm66.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

VIFmike said:


> Ok I will look that saw up. Not even going to go the CL route if I don't have to. Rather have a new one.




Op said...





WarnerConstInc. said:


> Pm66.




Responded....


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

VIFmike said:


> As far as cost goes I have a budget for the saw but I can prolong buying something for the building if I have to. Sort of like if some major machine went down in your shop that you can't afford to replace. You have to get the money somewhere. That somewhere for me is next week's budget for the building like some decking or shingles etc. My max is $2K and I'd really like it to be much less. But I also understand that a good saw will set me back at least $1400 or more.





That being said the best 'new' saw for you is going to be one of the previously mentioned Grizzlies.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

VIFmike said:


> I have a 40 tooth blade also. I was just liking the smoother edges. I might need to get a new blade. The 40 tooth I had on there for well over a year and it still cut well.
> 
> As far as cost goes I have a budget for the saw but I can prolong buying something for the building if I have to. Sort of like if some major machine went down in your shop that you can't afford to replace. You have to get the money somewhere. That somewhere for me is next week's budget for the building like some decking or shingles etc. My max is $2K and I'd really like it to be much less. But I also understand that a good saw will set me back at least $1400 or more.



I use a glue line rip from Freud, and it leaves a flawless edge. In ripping, a higher tooth count will NOT give you a better finish. 

The 40 tooth blade still isn't a rip blade, that would be a multipurpose blade. 

Rip blades have different tooth shapes and grinds to give you a better cut with a clean finish.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> Op said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No need to go the CL route. Plenty of PM66's sitting at machinery dealers.

That would be the only steel box saw I would buy (had two, great saw to pick up to use when you need it and then sell it when you are done).


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I have a $60 dollar Freud glue line rip. It doesn't cut any better than my $30 dollar freud rip blade.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

It's dependent upon material thickness. One has a max of 1 inch if I recall...

But I think we'd both agree either would cut better than a 60 tooth blade for ripping.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> No need to go the CL route. Plenty of PM66's sitting at machinery dealers.
> 
> That would be the only steel box saw I would buy (had two, great saw to pick up to use when you need it and then sell it when you are done).



Pm66's new?? I think he's mentioned he's looking for a new saw.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> It's dependent upon material thickness. One has a max of 1 inch if I recall...
> 
> But I think we'd both agree either would cut better than a 60 tooth blade for ripping.



It has a 1 inch max, and I was cutting 7/8 hard maple. Both blades cut better than a 60 tooth.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

ryan50hrl said:


> Pm66's new?? I think he's mentioned he's looking for a new saw.


Used from a dealer. Going to get a saw that has been looked over and ready to run.

Beats anything asian.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Above 1 inch Id agree both cut equally....below one I get a cleaner cut in oak with the glue line. I have 4 Freud blades and in my experience the glue line is by far the best in ripping thinner stock.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The glue line has more teeth so it would make sense it would rip thin stock better. I have never ripped less than 3/4 with it.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

If you plan on making a living off your equipment, forget grizzly.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

There's alot of guys on here that make a living off of Grizzly tools......


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

VIFmike said:


> .........If the wood has too high a moisture content it blows the lock and it costs about $80 bucks to replace the cartridge or whatever it is........


while they are pricey, sawstops are fine looking and well built tools. and you are completely misinformed about not being able to prevent brake tripping caused by a work piece's moisture content. the sawstop system emplys a deactivation feature that allows the operator to determine if the subject work piece will cause the brake to trip without actually running a piece of material through the blade.

IMHO, grizzly provides the best value, powermatic and jet, NIB, are way overpriced for what you get and sawstop's 3hp PCS is one of the best built hobbyist saws produced today.


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## FTWingRiders (Oct 15, 2013)

I just set up a new Grizzly G0691.. First Cabinet table I've owned so I can't compare, but very happy with it so far... I think Grizzly is the best bang for your dollar around.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Considering the fact the OP is running a 4 man shop, I don't think he would be considered a hobbyist.......

There are better saws for a professional environment than grizzly. Despite the uninformed stance, both Powermatic and Jet are a good value for heavy use shops.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think his use qualifies as Heavy use....if he's made it along with a 500 dollar saw for a few years. He also stated he or his son are the only ones that will ever use it.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

He said he's using it all day every day for a year and a half. If that isn't heavy use, what is?


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I don't think his use qualifies as Heavy use....if he's made it along with a 500 dollar saw for a few years. He also stated he or his son are the only ones that will ever use it.


He's gone through 2 sets of arbor bearings in that time. I don't call that making it along, I call that unnecessary downtime caused by pushing a light duty saw beyond it's design.

He needs a professional grade machine, not another chance to "make it along".


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

You're right.....he better upgrade to one of these....anything less will be underpowered and break down constantly....

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> You're right.....he better upgrade to one of these....anything less will be underpowered and break down constantly....
> 
> http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf


That might stretch his budget by a factor of 5. A used powermatic would be his best option. How long do you really think a cheap crapsman will run in a production shop. I think the hp on the crapsman was overrated probably more like 3/4 hp. See the WOOD shop test for more details. A 2 hp grizzly was able to rip 8/4 red oak at a rate of 33 fps. The crapsman ripped 7.2fpm.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> That might stretch his budget by a factor of 5. A used powermatic would be his option. How long do you really think a cheap crapsman will run in a production shop. I think the hp on the crapsman was overrated probably more like 3/4 hp. See the WOOD shop test for more details. A 2 hp grizzly was able to rip 8/4 red oak at a rate of 32 fps. The crapsman ripped 7 fpm.


I thought we all agreed to stop saying crapsman a while back? It gets really annoying hearing that term.

Why is it that every thread lately turns into a pissing match? The OP just said he was looking for a new saw, how did that turn into a debate on how having a 5hp saw makes you an idiot?

As far as the original question goes, grizzly makes some solid tools, especially in the industrial line, which is what youll be buying from anyway looking for a cabinet saw. I cant make any recommendations for a particular model, but i can say that whenever ive walked through the showroom ive always been impressed at the build quality. Im not saying that other brands dont have solid build quality, just that grizzly manages to have well built machines AND a price that wont completely empty a wallet


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> I thought we all agreed to stop saying crapsman a while back? It gets really annoying hearing that term.
> 
> Why is it that every thread lately turns into a pissing match? The OP just said he was looking for a new saw, how did that turn into a debate on how having a 5hp saw makes you an idiot?
> 
> As far as the original question goes, grizzly makes some solid tools, especially in the industrial line, which is what youll be buying from anyway looking for a cabinet saw. I cant make any recommendations for a particular model, but i can say that whenever ive walked through the showroom ive always been impressed at the build quality. Im not saying that other brands dont have solid build quality, just that grizzly manages to have well built machines AND a price that wont completely empty a wallet


Sorry, I will say craftsman from now on. In this thread I never said anything about a 5 hp saw. I totally agree with the grizzly statement, but used powermatic is better and about the same price as grizzly.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)




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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> That might stretch his budget by a factor of 5. A used powermatic would be his best option. How long do you really think a cheap crapsman will run in a production shop. I think the hp on the crapsman was overrated probably more like 3/4 hp. See the WOOD shop test for more details. A 2 hp grizzly was able to rip 8/4 red oak at a rate of 33 fps. The crapsman ripped 7.2fpm.



No ones recommending a craftsman. We've all been recommending a grizzly, except the few who are convinced those are garbage too.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> I totally agree with the grizzly statement, but used powermatic is better and about the same price as grizzly.



The op specifically stated he was looking for new, as he didn't want to go used.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't know about badmouthing craftsman. When I went into business I started with the craftsman saw I had bought for home use. I figured it would quickly wear out and at that time I would upgrade to a professional model but it kept going and going as did the jointer and radial arm saw. I used it in the business on a daily basis for more than 20 years before it quit. The only problem I had is when spending several hours at a time on the saw the motor would get hot and the thermal overload would shut it down but that only happened once or twice a year. The saw worked so well I took the motor to a repair shop to have it fixed but the motor shop didn't want to work on it because that model was glued together. On the way home from the motor shop I stopped by a tool store and bought a Unisaw. The craftsman jointer and radial arm saw are still going after more than 30 years in the business.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Don't know about the new ones. But that 95 Craftsman I bought used last month sure seems like one solid machine. I figured on using it til I got set up better, but it sure seems like all the saw I'll need for quite a while. Nothing fancy, just a motor hooked to a shaft under a big table with a super fence. 

In fact, Steve encouraged me to do it. $1200 cheaper than the new one I almost got.

HJ

Keeping it simple


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

The Craftsman has been fine except for the bearings. The first time the bearings started making noise they did so for a very long time before I replaced them and even then the saw still cut straight. I was surprised at how well it cuts for what I consider a cheaply made saw. The deck is very flat and the blade stays aligned nicely. I just need to step up to a little more heavy duty saw. But to better understand how much we use a saw I will explain in a little more detail.

In the morning 5 days a week we cut about 8-8' or 10' 2x6s in whitewood in half. So we have 16 48" or 60" pieces or a combination of both. Then after planing to 1&3/8" thick we rip them to 5&1/4" on one side then flip them over and rip them to 4&15/16" on the other side. Then we glue up 4 of those pieces to make a table. The 8' or 10' starting piece is determined by how long the table needs to be. We offer them in any length from 30" to 59"

Then in the afternoon we do the same thing all over. Now during the day we may rip some other pieces for other things but that is the amount of use the saw gets per day. all whitewood, almost all the time 2x6s. Sometimes we rip a block that is 271/2" thick and a length of anywhere from 19" to 40" long. We rip whitewood 2x4s down to 3&1/4" then 3" for table braces sometimes as well. 

So That amount of use seems to me to be more than the Craftsman is capable of and certainly as we expand. So the Grizzly 10" 3hp is what we have decided to get. Any of you guys have any comments based on the amount I use the current saw?

Also any of you that ordered a Grizzly saw, how long did it take to get it?

The bearings started making noise loud last night. I ordered replacement ones and a new arbor with expedited shipping they won't be here till Friday so if the one I have does not work today when we rip the afternoon stuff (morning stuff done last night when we had extra time) we will be down. 

On that note, I can go rent a 10" table top saw at Home Depot if I need to. You guys think one of those would do what I do good enough for a few days? Thanks a bunch


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

This guy is in Garland........... http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/4894550030.html

Better deals than anything you will get from grizzly.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

wericha said:


> This guy is in Garland........... http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/4894550030.html
> 
> Better deals than anything you will get from grizzly.



Delivery and set up, not bad.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

hwebb99 said:


> View attachment 138169


IIRC, the variable there was running the 2hp motors on a 240v circuit, and the 1.5hp/1.75hp motors on a 120v. In theory, it's not supposed to make a difference, but there's more voltage loss with 120v on some motors, as well as a great deal of debate about it, and many who've witnessed a notable improvement with 220v....in any event, they could have (and should have) avoided any questions by running them all on 220v. Instead they've left the door open for an apples to oranges comparison. 

If I had sufficient supply voltage, I'd rather have a true 2hp motor any time over a 1.5hp (or a 3hp), but I've not read significant complaints on power from the 22116 and 35990 owners, so it makes you wonder about Wood's supply circuit....if they weren't savvy enough to avoid the variable in the first place, how do we know they were savvy enough to install a suitable 120v circuit? I forget...did they use a thin kerf blade by any chance? (it makes a big difference with some motors). It also makes me wonder if they checked and optimized belt alignment and tension, which also makes a difference. Bottom line, I generally don't read too much into reviews....especially that one.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

notskot said:


> IIRC, the variable there was running the 2hp motors on a 240v circuit, and the 1.5hp/1.75hp motors on a 120v. In theory, it's not supposed to make a difference, but there's more voltage loss with 120v on some motors, as well as a great deal of debate about it, and many who've witnessed a notable improvement with 220v....in any event, they could have (and should have) avoided any questions by running them all on 220v. Instead they've left the door open for an apples to oranges comparison.
> 
> If I had sufficient supply voltage, I'd rather have a true 2hp motor any time over a 1.5hp (or a 3hp), but I've not read significant complaints on power from the 22116 and 35990 owners, so it makes you wonder about Wood's supply circuit....if they weren't savvy enough to avoid the variable in the first place, how do we know they were savvy enough to install a suitable 120v circuit? I forget...did they use a thin kerf blade by any chance? (it makes a big difference with some motors). It also makes me wonder if they checked and optimized belt alignment and tension, which also makes a difference. Bottom line, I generally don't read too much into reviews....especially that one.


Every saw was tested on the voltage it came wired from the factory. Why would they run them all on 220 not all shops have 220. Why would anybody go buy a 1-1/2 hp saw then rewire it to run on 220. Every other 110 volt saw was tested on the same 110 volt circuit. Every saw used a brand new Freud thin kerf rip blade.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Voltage makes no difference in power, higher voltage is cheaper to run the wiring. Less amps.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

notskot said:


> If I had sufficient supply voltage, I'd rather have a true 2hp motor any time over a 1.5hp (or a 3hp), but I've not read significant complaints on power from the 22116 and 35990 owners, so it makes you wonder .



And to be fair...the 22116 is not a 2 hp motor...it's 1.75. 

Mine works fine for most everything I've thrown at it.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I saw the CL ad but I just don't want to get into a used machine when I can get a new Grizzly with a warranty for less money. 

So what blade should I get for the stuff I posted above? The saw will be doing 90% plus ripping. I also have a Diablo blades in 40 tooth, 50 tooth and two 60 tooth. I also have the crap one that came on the Craftsman. I also have a dado set. 

I really appreciate all the help. I sent Grizzly an email asking how long it takes to get one here.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

If the wire gauge is correctly sized for the tool there shouldn't be any performance difference between 110 and 220. If the 110 wire was too small rewiring it to 220 would improve the performance.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I'd order this blade. I've had great luck with Freud and at 47 bucks, it's a good value. It's designed to rip material from 3/4 to 2-3/4 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0000...words=lm72&dpPl=1&dpID=51e72oawRbL&ref=plSrch


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> If the wire gauge is correctly sized for the tool there shouldn't be any performance difference between 110 and 220. If the 110 wire was too small rewiring it to 220 would improve the performance.



My craftsman 22116 doesn't have anymore power, but defiantly spins up faster. I think the speed with which it recovers after the blade slows down gives the impression it's got more power.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I'd order this blade. I've had great luck with Freud and at 47 bucks, it's a good value. It's designed to rip material from 3/4 to 2-3/4
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0000...words=lm72&dpPl=1&dpID=51e72oawRbL&ref=plSrch


I like Freud blades. Almost all of them are a good value.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

What parts fail on a style saw like this, to say one needs a warranty? 

I bet they don't cover bearings or belts. Anything else will last for decades (well those asian motors won't they are no baldor)

Really, what does this warranty do for you? 

Before anyone says they will replace things that are wrong out of the box, nothing should be wrong out of the box. 

A PM66 is a work horse, I had original machine's from the late 60's, mid 70's, late 90's, all worked perfect. 

Bearings and belts, nothing else should ever require warranty service.

Enlighten me please.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Also, I attend a lot of commercial auctions, from excess inventory to complete sell off's. I would say maybe 3% off all the machines I have seen are those green bears. They don't make their way into environments that work 2 or 3 shifts a day. I like stuff that can hang in places like that.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Well the warranty would cover the motor dying next week or something like that. Im not taking the chance on a used machine. Anyone have a link to the powermatic?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

That's great, a brand new motor dying in a week. Electric motors should last decades, if not century's. I have been running a few that are over 100 years old, never been rebuilt some still running on their original bearings.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I would rather have a used powermatic vs a grizzly any day. The old powermatics are made in the USA.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Guys....let it go....he wants a new machine.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

That's what I would say "great the new motor just died" They do die, thus the reason they offer a warranty. In a business the peace of mind that a new machine is far less likely to go down than a used one is worth more than the money savings. I can't afford for a machine to be down one day much less longer. 

But let's discuss the Powermatic. Who sells them? Gonna try google and see what's up with them. I really need to make a decision today.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

VIFmike said:


> That's what I would say "great the new motor just died" They do die, thus the reason they offer a warranty. In a business the peace of mind that a new machine is far less likely to go down than a used one is worth more than the money savings. I can't afford for a machine to be down one day much less longer.
> 
> But let's discuss the Powermatic. Who sells them? Gonna try google and see what's up with them. I really need to make a decision today.



I feed 5 people with my shop. I can't afford a new Martin or Northfield. 

That guy with the used pm66 would probably bring it out and set it up tomorrow and you would be back to work.

I have never had a motor failure. Most of the motors I run daily are 75 years old. Good old American made motors.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The powermatic 66's he's referring to would be refurb units at local tool dealers. They do not exist new anymore, and a dealer might have one today, they might not. If you wanted a powermatic and you wanted new you'd be looking at a pm2000.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

If you can't afford to have a machine down for a day or longer (a valid concern for any real business owner) the last machine you should be looking at is anything from grizzly

Locally Woodcraft sells Powermatic and Rockler sells Jet. Better still, in the unlikely event you need service there are several shops around here that service Powermatic and Jet. D&R Saw in Dallas and American Tool and Fastener in Plano are both authorized service centers. I bought mine here: http://www.cpooutlets.com/

I've had a PM2000 for 3 years now and it has been nearly flawless. The minor issues I've had were handled quickly by customer service with overnight shipping of parts. By minor I mean issues that did not affect the performance of the machine, that saw hasn't been "down" for more than an hour in the last 3 years.

Another option would be Laguna.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Mike I like buying new too. And you have a valid point. But the new is so much cheaper than a Powermatic or Delta. There is so much beef in those saws. Which is the reason bearings and motors don't die in those saws. Very few tools made today are made with the balls anymore. 

Al


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I like the saws the guy has in the CL ad but I would rather have a new machine. It looks like the guy is just selling them and is not the one that ran them their whole life so I have no idea how well they were maintained. Plus I don't know enough about them to know what I am looking at in person. I just don't want to go with a used machine. That decision is based on the ones I see on CL locally. I do not know any other sources locally to buy a used machine. 

A new one is a much better option for me. My current saw is not down so "back to work tomorrow" is not really correct there. If my current one does go down I can rent a saw to get me by until the new one gets here. But I really need to do it today.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

hwebb99 said:


> ....Why would they run them all on 220 not all shops have 220.


To eliminate the 120 vs 240 element as a potential variable in a test that's supposed to be scientifically controlled. 




hwebb99 said:


> ...Why would anybody go buy a 1-1/2 hp saw then rewire it to run on 220. ....


I can't speak for others, but reasons would include if the 110v circuit isn't up to par, or if other appliance run off it, or if the motor has high amp draw on startup and revovery under load that causes voltage drop.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

VIFmike said:


> ...So what blade should I get for the stuff I posted above? The saw will be doing 90% plus ripping. I also have a Diablo blades in 40 tooth, 50 tooth and two 60 tooth. I also have the crap one that came on the Craftsman. I also have a dado set. ...


For frequent rips of 1-3/8", I'd opt for a decent 24T FTG full kerf ripper...there are better examples from Infinity, Freud, CMT, Amana, Forrest, Ridge Carbide, Tenryu, etc. Cheaper options from Kempston, an maybe Oshlun. Those would even handle the 2-1/2" duties pretty well. I might even consider going with the Forrest WWII 30T ATB...a very clean cutting blade that's still fairly efficient in thick rips without excessive burning. If the cut quality isn't critical, I'd consider an 18T bulk ripper...Freud has an expensive option, but there's a Delta Industrial 35-611 that's made in Germany on Ebay clearanced for $21 plus s/h.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok, I decided to go with the 3HP Grizzly.


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

VIFmike said:


> Ok, I decided to go with the 3HP Grizzly.


What model did you decide on? I bought the G0690 model a couple of months ago and I really like it compared to my old Craftsman contractors saw that's for sure. One thing on my new one is the power cord is really short. That is about the only thing that you will need to change if you get that one...... Make sure you post some pictures of the new one when it arrives...... GAry


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> Why would anybody go buy a 1-1/2 hp saw then rewire it to run on 220.



I'm not sure if you're referring to the test...or anyone in general. 

Rewiring your 110 saw to 220 reduces the load on you panel. The 40 amp breaker in my subpanel (inspector wouldn't let me do 60) would quickly overload if everything ran on 110. Running my saw and dust collector on 220 lets me get by with 40 amps.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Check out Ridgeblades.com - made in USA. Not cheap, but not overly expensive.

HJ


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

wericha said:


> If you can't afford to have a machine down for a day or longer (a valid concern for any real business owner) the last machine you should be looking at is anything from grizzly
> 
> Locally Woodcraft sells Powermatic and Rockler sells Jet. Better still, in the unlikely event you need service there are several shops around here that service Powermatic and Jet. D&R Saw in Dallas and American Tool and Fastener in Plano are both authorized service centers. I bought mine here: http://www.cpooutlets.com/
> 
> ...


There are several shop in Kansas City running GRIZZLY brand tools. They work like everyone elses.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I got the G1023RL. Ordered it today. I should have it in 3 to 5 business days. Gonna take the advice above and get the Freud blade. I'm gonna have to run power for the table as I don't have 220 where it's at. I have enough time to get it done before then. As soon as I get it installed and working I will get pics and let you guys know how it works.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

Rebelwork said:


> There are several shop in Kansas City running GRIZZLY brand tools. They work like everyone elses.


Your point?

I can show you at least 8 shops in the Dallas area, including mine, that have either sold off anything they had from grizzly or in the process of doing so. I have yet to see anything from grizzly stand up to heavy use.

They may be great machines for hobbyists or folks that have time to dink with them. I don't know anybody who uses them on a daily basis that is satisfied.

Just my experience, yours may be entirely different.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

wericha said:


> Your point?
> 
> I can show you at least 8 shops in the Dallas area, including mine, that have either sold off anything they had from grizzly or in the process of doing so. I have yet to see anything from grizzly stand up to heavy use.
> 
> ...


Already made my point...


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

As did I.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

me also.







either get the 3 HP or the 5 HP.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

wericha said:


> Your point?
> 
> I can show you at least 8 shops in the Dallas area, including mine, that have either sold off anything they had from grizzly or in the process of doing so. I have yet to see anything from grizzly stand up to heavy use.
> 
> ...


Great, post those shop names with some contact info. I'll call em up. 

If the saw lasts me longer than the Craftsman 21833 then I will be happy. By then I will know if this business makes it or fails and by then it will be time for a much larger piece or just adding another piece. The whole reason I did not spend 5k on my first saw is I didn't know where this business would be by this time. I'd say it has been a good saw for as much material has been pushed through it. If this one does the same it will pay for itself and get me to the next level.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*My 10" Craftsman lasted 40 years also*



VIFmike said:


> Ok, I decided to go with the 3HP Grizzly.


Yes, I did replacxe the bearings twice, but that's all I ever did to it. I parted it out to get the table and the 1 HP motor for my other tablesaws and tools. The arbor and bearings is the weakest part of the unit. The motor is still going strong, although it's only a 1 HP.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691










Here's a 3 HP Grizzly arbor and carriage that is double the size of the old Craftsman, uses 3 V belts and larger bearings. I don't think you'll have any concerns with either the bearings or the motor. The 3 HP motor on Grizzly tools is used for most of their tools, jointers, bandsaws, table saws, shapers etc. This model comes with a Leeson motor, made in USA.:no:


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Here is the pic of the one on the saw I ordered...










Looks to be pretty beefy compared to the Craftsman. I should have the new bearings and arbor for the Craftsman Friday. I will fix it and then decide if I want to sell it or keep it. I could set it up for crosscutting tables. Haven't thought much about it yet. I only paid $649 for it so it paid for itself long ago.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok I wanted to update you guys. The freight company says my delivery will be next Wednesday. So as soon as it gets here I will get it set up. I have to run another 220 line before it does. 

But remember I had ordered the parts for the Craftsman 21833 last week. They were scheduled to come in Friday but they actually came in Thursday. I ordered the arbor, both bearings, the pulley, the spacer and a belt. I think I even still have another extra belt somewhere. The belt I have is new so now I have three basically. So as I said before when the bearings went out last time they just started making noise. But the blade was straight and had no play at all. So I let them go for a long time before I changed them. 

When I did I saw that the bearing had finally started slipping on the arbor shaft and likely that was making all the noise. I took the base off the saw and flipped it over and took it all apart. I replaced all those pieces and it worked fine for about a year. Well this time it sounded louder and different. So this time I take the back cover off and let the motor down into the cabinet and I was actually able to pull the snap ring and the nut and get the arbor out without taking the saw apart. This time though it was not the bearing making the noise. It was the pulley loose on the shaft flopping around. It was getting hot enough to melt the plastic on the inner bearing but both bearings rolled smooth. 

So I installed all the new parts and total time from start to finish was less than an hour. Now this thing is so quiet I can hear the rush of the air off the blade again. So I went ahead and cut a bunch of stuff last night. It worked flawlessly. This saw has performed very well for the rough service I have put it through. So not sure yet if I will keep it or sell it when the new one gets here. Update as soon as I get to run the new one.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Now you will have two saws, which will add to your fabrication flexibility. And get that 24 tooth ripping blade and take some of the pressure off your machines'a bearings.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Having two saws would be nice, set one up for ripping and the other for crosscutting or dados.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*as someone with too many tablesaws....*

I agree with the above post stating keep the Craftsman for what ever you may need in the future. I have a 22124 that is setup for smaller more accurate pieces, the cross cut sled and bevel work when that is required. It still takes up a large footprint but, I can use it as a table in between operations. 

Yah, you can't have too many table saws.... I'm up to 6 now, 4 in the upper shop, 2 downstairs.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

I just have to make room for it if I keep it. I also have two miter saws and two planers. I should be setting them all up to do other tasks.


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## Mort (Jan 4, 2014)

That's odd that you say that about the pulley. I have an older Craftsman saw (not sure on the number) that I've had problems with both pulleys loosening up. I wonder if it's a craftsman thing or just a coincidence. 

I cranked them down and so far so good, but still...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Since older and newer craftsman saws were built by two different companies, in factories on opposite sides of the world, Id say it's a coincidence.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Probably. I think when I installed the new bearings I may have tightened the belt too much. That or the nut holding the pulley on got loose enough to let the pulley move a little and that little kept getting more and more. Either way I have all of it replaced and if it happens again I know how to do it quick and cheap. But certainly looking forward to using the new saw.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

VIFmike said:


> Probably. I think when I installed the new bearings I may have tightened the belt too much. That or the nut holding the pulley on got loose enough to let the pulley move a little and that little kept getting more and more. Either way I have all of it replaced and if it happens again I know how to do it quick and cheap. But certainly looking forward to using the new saw.


Are you replacing the bearings with factory replacement bearings? If you are having problems with the bearings I believe I would try another brand.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes Steve I ordered them directly from Craftsman. I have not had a second problem but rather the pulley messing up the inside one. It still rolled fine but there was some melted plastic on the side of the bearing where it meets the pulley that was "wollowed" out on the shaft. I did save the bearings so in case I did have another problem I could use the part number and find some better ones. I think I may have had the belt too tight and/or the pulley got a little loose on the shaft and just got worse. the keyway may also have played a role in that. But I am confident it was not the bearings. 

What surprises me is how well this saw cuts with a nice new blade and straight. But since it's only ripping whitewood I suspect that the new saw will be much better for my production environment.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Are you replacing the bearings with factory replacement bearings? If you are having problems with the bearings I believe I would try another brand.


I was wondering the same thing. Bearings are fairly cheap....if you're going to bother, it can't hurt to go with an upgrade.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

We have a place close to me called A&W bearing. They sell all kinds and several different quality levels so if I do have an issue I would upgrade. I was pleased to figure out that I did not have to take the saw apart to replace it.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Got my new saw in yesterday late. Gotta try and get it set up today. I will post as soon as I get it going.


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## wericha (Apr 29, 2012)

I've used A&W several times, great folks. Purvis in McKinney is another good source if A&W doesn't have what you need.


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## VIFmike (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok guys I assembled the saw last night, ran the 220 and made a stand for it. (it sits only about 34" high). I made it the same height as my Craftsman 21833 and moved them into an L shape for now. Don't have room to move the old saw yet. So I put the 80 tooth blade on it for smooth cross cuts. I put the Diablo 50 tooth ripping blade on the new saw. It works great. It did not take long at all to set up the Shop Fox fence. Man that thing is heavy duty. Plus me and my kid could barely see the numbers on the Craftsman and this one has a large magnifying glass over the numbers. 

I will put the saw through a normal work schedule today as we are scheduled to have rain all day. I had planned to make and install more of the trusses for the roof but with rain all day I will have to stay in doors. But I can run today (Saturday) as a normal work day and maybe even tomorrow too then use the first clear dry week day to make and install trusses. Long story short I will run the heck out of this new saw today and see how it holds up.


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