# More Workbench Questions



## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Hello,

I am trying to determine the best way to frame a garage workbench.

My question is with regard to attaching the frames for the table top and middle shelf to the legs.


I have tried to sketch out the options I am considering. Both A and B are pretty straightforward but C looks the best as the legs and frame would be flush. So my question is; do you think C is practical and strong enough? If it is then how would you do it? 

Toescrew? 
M&T? 
Pocket holes?
All framing members will be 2X4 stock with all sides planed and joined

Thanks.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Dado "half-Laps" on everything. It all comes out flush and is very strong.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Willie T said:


> Dado "half-Laps" on everything. It all comes out flush and is very strong.


yeah what he said.:yes:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

okay so i can do an end lap joint for the leg and horizontal frame member. My question now is about the front to back support member. What would be the best way to tie that in given that there will be a half lap on the end?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> okay so i can do an end lap joint for the leg and horizontal frame member. My question now is about the front to back support member. What would be the best way to tie that in given that there will be a half lap on the end?


Double sided Half-Laps.

Dado the ends of the front to back supports by half and dado the outsides of the legs.... the side supports can then butt against the front suport.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Double sided Half-Laps.
> 
> Dado the ends of the front to back supports by half and dado the outsides of the legs.... the side supports can then butt against the front suport.


wow thank you...no wonder i couldn't get my brain around that...it's a gosh darn rubik's cube.......that diagram helps a LOT......now i just gotta figure out how to cut it.....thanks very much.....:thumbsup:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Double sided Half-Laps.
> 
> Dado the ends of the front to back supports by half and dado the outsides of the legs.... the side supports can then butt against the front suport.


oh and i am going to glue and screw......not a whole lot of room for screws in that maze.....LOL......but I'll figure that part out......thank you again.....


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

This is what your right front leg will look like. (As you're standing in front of the bench, looking at it.) It's all done with a wide dado blade set at 3/4" depth. But keep your cuts clean and tight so you have good, solid fitting joints. You don't want play in these joints.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> This is what your right front leg will look like.


and you think I should be okay strength wise even after removing all that material?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> and you think I should be okay strength wise even after removing all that material?


You put it all right back in when you glue and screw the front, sides, and back pieces in. I have a twenty year old bench in the garage made that way, and it has had motorcycles sitting on top of it. Strong as an ox.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> You put it all right back in when you glue and screw the front, sides, and back pieces in. I have a twenty year old bench in the garage made that way, and it has motorcycles sitting on top of it. Strong as an ox.


awesome...I'll take your word for it then......I have my work cut out for me...i think i can do the legs and the front to back members with a dado blade on the TS......I think I'll use the router for the long front horizontal members as they will also have some other notches in them for additonal front to back support over the entire length...

by the way....what program are you using to produce those great drawings?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> awesome...I'll take your word for it then......I have my work cut out for me...i think i can do the legs and the front to back members with a dado blade on the TS......I think I'll use the router for the long front horizontal members as they will also have some other notches in them for additonal front to back support over the entire length...
> 
> *by the way....what program are you using to produce those great drawings?*


 This is SketchUp. You download it absolutely free from GOOGLE.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> This is SketchUp. You download it absolutely free from GOOGLE.


i actually have it and never used it....I guess I'll try tonight.....did you have to create all of the images from scratch or do they have some type of library or file?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

These were also done with SketchUp.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> i actually have it and never used it....I guess I'll try tonight.....did you have to create all of the images from scratch or do they have some type of library or file?


What I did for your bench was just a few minutes of messing around. Not hard with SU at all. They have add ins for just about anything you can think of. Wall and floor and roof framing... stair and railing builders... windows and doors... all sorts of interior components... furniture... trees... people... just about anything. And although I lack the skill to do it, I've seen many drawings that I swear you couldn't tell from photographs.

It's quite a program.


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

Not that you need any more input (i think Willie covered that). But the half lap is what I plan on doing with my bench.


By the way willie, the house is impressive. you have defiantly logged some hours with SU


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

CivilEngineer13 said:


> Not that you need any more input (i think Willie covered that). But the half lap is what I plan on doing with my bench.
> 
> 
> By the way willie, the house is impressive. you have defiantly logged some hours with SU


I've done some things similar, but that particular one is not mine. None of my framing jobs have been that big.

I'll post one of mine tomorrow.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

wow...lol......it's going to take me quite a while to even skecth a peice of scrap wood....LOL....are there any tutorials or anything.??...I can't seem to figure it out so well....:blink:


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## LarrySch (Dec 31, 2007)

Tom - This may help you - http://sketchupforwoodworkers.com/tutorials - lot of great information on how to use sketchup.


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

yeah, go to googles homepage. up where maps videos etc are there is a tab for more. click that then go to the even more tab. in that page you find sketchup. if you click that the you are at the sketchup page and tutorials are on the right side in a tab. I started with a self paced tutorial with 3 parts about a year ago. that's where it all started for me so that's what I would recommend. you can always look on youtube but those are just people explaining. no hands on, but still good info


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## LGC KX5 TC (Dec 23, 2008)

also if you turn on the instructor in sketchup it will tell you exactly what all the tools do in pretty good detail.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

SketchUp is a strange program. They say if you have no CAD experience, it is a breeze to learn. But if you are used to other programs, much of SU is backassward to what is intuitive for you.

I'm pretty comfortable with AutoCAD, and this program has just given me fits!

The tutorials are very good. And there are hundreds of them. I suggest getting the book SketchUp for Dummies. I found it to be one of the most helpful, and they have free coordinated online lessons to go along with the book.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's part of a school I was remodling.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

This is the kind of thing most of us would be more interested in doing...... The entry way is something I just finished for my wife.

At the bottom is a "library" of shop tools you can copy/paste into your own drawing.


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

Willie T said:


> SketchUp is a strange program. They say if you have no CAD experience, it is a breeze to learn. But if you are used to other programs, much of SU is backassward to what is intuitive for you.
> 
> I'm pretty comfortable with AutoCAD, and this program has just given me fits!
> 
> The tutorials are very good. And there are hundreds of them. I suggest getting the book SketchUp for Dummies. I found it to be one of the most helpful, and they have free coordinated online lessons to go along with the book.


I second that, I work with AutoCAD everyday and SU is a whole different ball game compared to that. 

One thing I have always wondered about SU. Is there a good way to offset a line like in AutoCAD? The offset tool in SU is not a real offset function IMO.


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

CivilEngineer13 said:


> I second that, I work with AutoCAD everyday and SU is a whole different ball game compared to that.
> 
> One thing I have always wondered about SU. Is there a good way to offset a line like in AutoCAD? The offset tool in SU is not a real offset function IMO.


No, as far as I know, you cannot offset just a line. I think it has to be a full component... for instance you would offset a square by two inches to make a frame shape.

And this is a true bummer because I do almost all of my AutoCad house plans using, primarily, the offset function.

I should tell you that there really IS a roundabout way to do an "offset" in SU.

They provide a "TAPE" measuring tool in the toolbar. This places a dotted construction line on your drawing.

What you do is select the TAPE tool...("T" on the keyboard)
Pick any "point" on the line, the "mid point" of a line will do... it lights up with a green dot... ( the "endpoint" would do too)... just any "point" that lights up a colored dot
Then move the TAPE perpendicularly away from the selected line
Let go of the mouse. Type in your desired offset dimension ( EXAMPLE: 4'6 ....no need for the " mark)
Then hit <ENTER>.
You should now have a dotted construction placed parallel to the original line... at the offset you typed.
Now just use the line tool ("L" on the keyboard) and draw a line over the construction line.
Grab the eraser ("E" on the keyboard), target the dotted line, and erase it.

Try playing with this to get the feel of it. Not a perfect offset tool, but it works.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

wow...amazing stuff........all i wanna be able to do is design a garage workbench and some shelves....LOL.........i hope it won't take me too long to get proficient enough to do that....

thanks for the tips and insight on the tutorials guys.....


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

There IS a way to accomplish this same look with NO dadoing.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> There IS a way to accomplish this same look with NO dadoing.


okay now that's just crazy (in a good way)....LOL...wow...amazing....that's pretty close to what i was hoping to do.....i can use the basic skecthup program to do that?


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> okay now that's just crazy (in a good way)....LOL...wow...amazing....that's pretty close to what i was hoping to do.....i can use the basic skecthup program to do that?


Yep, that's the beauty of SU. It looks really nice (and hard to do), but once you get the hang of it you will be able to draw that bench up in an hour or two. Just start with the tutorials and they expain everything you need to know (the other stuff is just fancy extra stuff).


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> There IS a way to accomplish this same look with NO dadoing.


The more I looked I think the only concern I'd have here would be that the long horizontal frame members are fastened to the legs by one lag bolt from what I can see........Wouldn't that put a lot of shear load on those?


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

I promise you, you will not be able to shear even a 1/4" bolt with a work bench like that.

I can calculate it out if you _really_ want...


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

CivilEngineer13 said:


> I promise you, you will not be able to shear even a 1/4" bolt with a work bench like that.
> 
> I can calculate it out if you _really_ want...


No that's okay.......unless you REALLY want to.....LOL......now you have me curious....

It just didn't seem like one, let's say 1/4 inch lag bolt, drilled into the end of what amounts to be a 4X4, would be sufficient....but that's why I am not an engineer.....LOL......I can barely spell my name.....:thumbsup:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> No that's okay.......unless you REALLY want to.....LOL......now you have me curious....
> 
> It just didn't seem like one, let's say 1/4 inch lag bolt, drilled into the end of what amounts to be a 4X4, would be sufficient....but that's why I am not an engineer.....LOL......I can barely spell my name.....:thumbsup:


actually the top end of mine from the about the middle up to the top will likely be carrying more weight than what this would be built to carry.......so i would have additonal load.....but from what you are saying I could probabaly just use 3/8 lags or better and be just fine


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

I don't think one 1/4" lag bolt would be sufficent for construction purposes, but as far as shear it would. I would go with two 1/2"er's if it were me. I would be more concerned about the bolt holding the two pieces together. A couple tips for that situation:

-Pre-drill a hole approx. 1/4" or a little less, smaller than the bolt
-Put bar soap on the bolt to help it along
-And finally, DON'T overtighten and strip the bolt. Then your about screwed and would have to get a larger bolt and start over.


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

after looking at the pic again, I think i would go with just one bolt. I thnk two would be a tight squeeze.... maybe one 3/4".... i like to overbuild :laughing:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

CivilEngineer13 said:


> after looking at the pic again, I think i would go with just one bolt. I thnk two would be a tight squeeze.... maybe one 3/4".... i like to overbuild :laughing:


yes i do too.......i built some built in shelves in garage last fall and i swear you could store full size cars on them...........anyhow........see you give expression to what I am thinking before i even say it.....something didn't seem right there and you are correct...it's not so much the shear load maybe but the actual construction....i don't see one lag bolt going though an entire leg and one entire support member, being able to properly fasten the entire 4X4 end surface of the horizontal peice to the inside surface of the leg......that joint just doesnt seem like it would be too tight.....

and another thing.....lol......not sure from this picture just how the cross members for the drawers get fastened.....gotta figure that one out


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> and another thing.....lol......not sure from this picture just how the cross members for the drawers get fastened.....gotta figure that one out


Hmmmm....got me on that one too. It looks like it is just magically hanging there....


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

CivilEngineer13 said:


> Hmmmm....got me on that one too. It looks like it is just magically hanging there....


thats what it looked like to me too but I wasn't sure

with the design I am contemplating my bottom shelf would actually be on a 2x4 frame on the floor so 3.5 inches off the floor. Then I'll have 2 or 3 laminated 2X4's 20 inches up from that to allow for toally open storage on the bottom shelf. I'll then devide the space between the middle support member and the benchtop frame into 3 sections using vertical support members. In those sections i will basically build boxes and in those boxes will be my drawers. Hopefully I can get two 5 inch deep boxes in each section (hopefully). Longer ones in each of the outside boxes and shorter ones in the middle box. The plywood boxes will give me something to attach drawer glides to for the drawers.....

aren't you thrilled you now know all of that?.....lol


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## CivilEngineer13 (Aug 29, 2008)

lol... sounds like a plan to me. Its actually kind of intersting to see what you decided to do. I think it will look good and work well. Good Luck! I'll send you mine tonight (maybe, may be destracted... :laughing::laughing::laughing


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

They're not lag bolts, Guys. Follow the dotted bolt lines through the 90 degree turns, and you'll see the nuts and washers. The inside 2 x 4's (and part of the outside ones) have a hole drilled in them from the side to fit in the nuts and washers, and also get a wrench on them.

The drawer receivers (hangers) can be drilled vertically on each end for two screws each... one into each 2 x 4. You screw up from the bottom. The drawers, themselves keep any side-to-side movement in check.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> They're not lag bolts, Guys. Follow the dotted bolt lines through the 90 degree turns, and you'll see the nuts and washers. The inside 2 x 4's have a hole drilled in them from the side to fit in the nuts and washers, and also get a wrench on them.
> 
> The drawer receivers (hangers) can be drilled vertically on each end for two screws each... one into each 2 x 4. You screw up from the bottom. The drawers, themselves keep any side-to-side movement in check.


oops....you're exactly right....my bad...........so you can do the drawer hangers like that?....drill up through the bottom?.......I am trying to get 2 teirs of shelves though.......any thoughts?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> oops....you're exactly right....my bad...........so you can do the drawer hangers like that?....drill up through the bottom?.......I am trying to get 2 teirs of shelves though.......any thoughts?


Yes, you can. That's basically the way that big ol' garage door opener is hung to the bottom chords of the trusses in your garage. (or joists, if that's what you have.)

I think for this setup (though I like the one out in my garage better) you could divide (cut into smaller lengths) the front and back 2 x 4's so they could receive a hanging piece of 3/4" plywood (from back to front), deep enough to carry two stacked drawers if you wanted them.

Of course you would have to mount some hardwood runners for the drawer slides, but that's no biggie.


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## b00kemdano (Feb 10, 2009)

You guys are hardcore! 

When I build a workbench, it's made to be beaten, cut on, scraped, scratched, drilled through, scorched, stained, sealed, and poly'd. Therefore, I don't put much into making them. :laughing:

I lap 2x4s to make a square for either end, then, depending on how long I want the bench, I connect the squares with some 2x4s at the top for the work surface, and at the desired height for a shelf. Slap some plywood on top, on the shelf, and voila! - cheap, destroyable workbench. 

The big thing for me is using 2.5" galvanized deck screws for just about everything "functional". So I can take things apart and reconfigure them as needed. The top and shelf are screwed on so I can replace them as needed.

Maybe someday I'll make a finely crafted workbench, but for now, I'm way too destructive! :icon_smile:


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's your plywood spacer. It's set up to sit on top of the bottom shelf, and it has runners for two drawers and leg notches for a shelf. The centers would have runners on both sides... the ends would only have runners on the insides.

Oops! I forgot. Although it doesn't need to be "notched" at the tops for the front and back inside 2 x 4's...... it will need a 1-1/2" notch to make it come out even with the outside ones. The runners would have to be positioned to clear those 2 x 4's, too.

Heck, gotta leave _something_ up to you. :thumbsup:

OK, OK.... I got weak, and corrected the picture... But, ya still gonna have those drawers pretty low to clear the front 2 x 4's. :shifty: That's kind of a bummer.

The second one is another way it could go... but you would have to mount your drawer slide right at the top of the drawer, and that isn't the greatest. Should be center of the drawer box or lower.

NOTE: The bottom leg notches will force you to leave the plywood 1" shy of the front and back. This space is intended to be "edged" with 1" hardwood nosing for stiffening.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Here's your plywood spacer. It's set up to sit on top of the bottom shelf, and it has runners for two drawers and leg notches for a shelf. The centers would have runners on both sides... the ends would only have runners on the insides.
> 
> Oops! I forgot. Although it doesn't need to be "notched" at the tops for the front and back inside 2 x 4's...... it will need a 1-1/2" notch to make it come out even with the outside ones. The runners would have to be positioned to clear those 2 x 4's, too.
> 
> ...


wow...thank you sir....that looks great and it's a great solution......i think I'll be okay with drawer bottom level because my bottom shelf is actually going to rest on a 2X4 frame on the floor of the garage and the mid horizontal member can go a little lower....I'll be adapting everything so it can attached to the garage wall.....

gee now all i have to do is build it.....thanks again my friend:thumbsup:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Tom5151 said:


> wow...thank you sir....that looks great and it's a great solution......i think I'll be okay with drawer bottom level because my bottom shelf is actually going to rest on a 2X4 frame on the floor of the garage and the mid horizontal member can go a little lower....I'll be adapting everything so it can attached to the garage wall.....
> 
> gee now all i have to do is build it.....thanks again my friend:thumbsup:


one more fast question...i am going to be using just regular construction grade 2X4s.for the frame. I am going to plane and join them to a final dimenison of 3.25 X 1.25. Will I lose a lot in terms of structural support by doing that?


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Since you're using the doubled 2 x 4 method, I see no problem. In fact even doing it the way I did mine (like the red, yellow and green half-laps) I imagine it would still be plenty strong.

I built an airplane from wood, and the individual pieces were awfully small. But the integrity of the combined pieces in the overall structure was amazing. Same way with a bench. Build it right and tight, with good glue and proper screws, and it may even outlast you. :smile:


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Double sided Half-Laps.
> 
> Dado the ends of the front to back supports by half and dado the outsides of the legs.... the side supports can then butt against the front suport.


Hey Willie,

Quick question for you......

I am going to be milling my 2X4 stock down to 3.25 X 1.25. So that means that I would only have 5/8 of an inch of the side support resting on the top surface of the dadoed leg following your diagram. Is that enough? I know it will be glued and screwed but I am wondering if I should laminate another peice of stock to the back surface of the leg to give the side support more surface to rest on.........thoughts?

Thanks,
Tom


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## Willie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Tom5151 said:


> Hey Willie,
> 
> Quick question for you......
> 
> ...


I think I mentioned that I have a twenty-some year old bench made this way. And, although I used full-size 2 x 4's in the construction of it, I never glued any of it... just two #12 wood screws at the 1-1/2" joints, and three of them at the 3-1/2" joints. Still solid as a rock. And I only have 1/8" more bearing surface than you will.

Don't forget that you are going to be carrying a lot of the vertical load directly on the tops of the four corner legs, and upon any intermediate supports you decide to use. That would probably be two or three more in the front, and the same number in the back.

Frankly, with the excellent glues we have at our disposal today, you could probably just glue and clamp them with no problems. Screws, however are good insurance.


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## Tom5151 (Nov 21, 2008)

Willie T said:


> I think I mentioned that I have a twenty-some year old bench made this way. And, although I used full-size 2 x 4's in the construction of it, I never glued any of it... just two #12 wood screws at the 1-1/2" joints, and three of them at the 3-1/2" joints. Still solid as a rock. And I only have 1/8" more bearing surface than you will.
> 
> Don't forget that you are going to be carrying a lot of the vertical load directly on the tops of the four corner legs, and upon any intermediate supports you decide to use. That would probably be two or three more in the front, and the same number in the back.
> 
> Frankly, with the excellent glues we have at our disposal today, you could probably just glue and clamp them with no problems. Screws, however are good insurance.


Hey Willie,

Thank you very much. I appreciate your detailed answer....

Actually my bench will be attached to the wall. I am only going to have two legs in front (right and left). The idea is for NO vertical middle support at all. I am going to laminate 2 or 3 2X4s across the entire length about 24 inches up from the floor to provide horizontal load carrying support. So really the down force will be carried by cleats lagged into the wall and by the two front legs. I think that should be good.

Thanks again my friend.:thumbsup:


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