# Red Oak OK for cuttig board?



## PA WOODCHUCK (Feb 11, 2018)

Started with the dream of making a cutting board for over the sink which is about 17 x 17inches. I had a top from an old dishwasher but on the first cut found it was veneered. That said I have some red oak and wonder how well it would work? If not what are my choices and why? Also how should I finish the top and with what is people safe?


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Red Oak is not really the best wood to use for a cutting board. Walnut, Maple, Cherry, Purpleheart, Padauk, even White Oak and Hickory in limited use would be better. Use mineral oil to finish. You can add Beeswax to the mix if you like. We've made about 50 end grain cutting boards and I'll occasionally use a small piece of Red Oak for a different look but not more than about 5% of the board.

David


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## Mason_Ross (Feb 15, 2017)

PA WOODCHUCK said:


> Started with the dream of making a cutting board for over the sink which is about 17 x 17inches. I had a top from an old dishwasher but on the first cut found it was veneered. That said I have some red oak and wonder how well it would work? If not what are my choices and why? Also how should I finish the top and with what is people safe?




Red Oak is very porous more so than white oak. Liquids will pass right through it, which is why they don’t use it for wine barrrels. On the other hand Red Oak is extremely hard and polish like a champ. I just soak my cutting boards in mineral oil to coat them and it is good safe. Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps you out a little.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

No. Not unless you are prepared to go to great lengths to seal the wood.

Red Oak (Quercus rubra) and some other oaks are "open porous."
That means that the vessels are open tubes through out the wood ( nice place to rot meat juices)

Hickory ( Carya sp.) is also very grossly open porous.

White Oak (Q. alba) and some other oaks are closed. The vessel tubes are permanently plugged and the wood is waterproof.
That's why (plus the vanillin flavors) white oak is used for wine, sherry and whiskey barrels across the world.

a) you could used white oak very easily, if you like the look.
There are lots of other woods mentioned above, that have far, var smaller vessels, really tiny "pores", which are really attractive.

b) I want a big chopping board, glue-up of many select pieces, made out of apple. On my bucket lust for good looking, hard and solid.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You couldn't use red oak for a cutting board that was to be used. Red oak turns black when you get it wet and rots easily. Because it's an open grain wood it would tend to hold bacteria and might make someone sick. White oak is more water resistant but still is an open grain wood so I wouldn't use either.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

White Oak vessel elements are occluded by tyloses from the adjacent radial ray cells.
Good enough for whiskey, rum and wine, good enough for me.

Red oak wood turns black because it is rotting inside like the black bottom of your compost box. True enough?

If I had the chance = any maple in an interesting glue up. Any orchard fruit wood (pecan, apple, etc)

I have a Bird's-Eye maple bread board in my kitchen. Spectacular figure, as you can imagine.
My carved wooden prep tools are all oven baked birch with an olive oil finish which cannot go rancid.


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## PA WOODCHUCK (Feb 11, 2018)

Got a sawmill about 10 miles away and going there Monday. So it looks like white oak or maple are the best choice. Would it be best to cut in 2inch strips and then glue all together. Wife wants it about close to and inch thick so it's light to pickup.


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## jspriddy (Dec 6, 2017)

*Olive: vegetable or fruit?*

It's my understanding that of the food oils, olive, canola, etc., only the nut oils (peanut, walnut, for example), will not go rancid. Neither will mineral oil. Again, this is just my understanding, I'm not an expert on this, or much else for that matter.

John

""They are gone now--and it does not matter. The sea and the earth are unfaithful to their children..."

Joseph Conrad


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Correct - most of those go rancid. Mineral oil is probably the safest and least expensive to use. The nut oils will work but they have a few caveats, as well, though going rancid isn't one of them.

David


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Note: Below is an excerpt from "Best Wood for Cutting Boards" which from my post on became lively if not truculent conversation. The topic of "cutting boards" in general can become contentious for some with very strong opinions...

Butcher Block...Whats the best wood? etc. 

First, let me validate my perspectives on this topic and why I have drawn the conclusions I offer...

I have been a traditional woodworker for over 40 years, much of that while working within other professions, but always keeping my hand on the professional side of it. One of the most sought-after items is those for the Kitchen and the ubiquitous "Butcher Block" being asked for most often. I have gotten to watch the complete evolution of these over time from "plastic is best" in the late 70's and 80's...until we all learned through the events of actual human deaths, that plastic actually can (once cut on enough and not properly cleaned) grow bacteria in all the cut marts to the point of being unserviceable. This can happen at a very alarming rate!!! Even though many are still in service, little can change a human habit once formed, so many still cut on plastic. Then studies came out proving the logic of our forebears that *"wood is good"* because there are some species *(Acer Species...aka Maples and related)* that actually have antimicrobial properties within the wood itself, and cleaning them is nothing more than vinegar and/or citric acid. I have designed and made everything from working Harvest Tables to full-on professional "stump style" and "butch blocking" traditional cutting surfaces for everything from Butchery, and Bakery, to Abattoir facilities. That history is what facilitated the advice below offered.

Hands down, the best wood for "cutting surfaces" are going to be *Maples and related species*. Its been that way for literally over 1000 years, and only the last 100 have we "experimented" with other materials and woods. Most of which don't come close to the performance of Maple and many are just plain bad to use. 

As to construction, I promote "End Grain" orientation whenever possible. If on the flat...bark up only!!!!...as this has the shortest fiber pattern exposure (aka splinters) and follows the traditional adage of: "*use wood as it stands living or fall in the forest."* That's not a hard and fast rule but a very dominantly found tradition with very strong logic behind it. If wood is used for a cutting board (or a floorboard) with the "pith side up" the splinters get longer and the fiber structure can trap liquids down inside the wood!!! My minimum thickness for 90% of what I design and/or make for a cutting board is 100mm and I prefer actual "stump style" blocks at 300mm that can be resurfaced and last over 100 years in continued use. I prefer green wood over dry, and joinery over glues whenever possible...

As to finishes, I only use food grade oils and beeswax for* all but the cutting surface. *There are countless blends out there, but just plain pure food grade Tung or Flax oil rubbed into the wood is standard by many. Beeswax cut in with citrus oil which also is a great cleaning agent in its own right. *Note* that some Chief and others do not want any "drying oil" used on their boards...*at all!!!* I support this and understand the reason, as they can trap bacteria and/or taint the flavor of the food. Some want it just bare wood, while others (me included) will use Coconut oil (my all time favorite) or Olive Oil which both have been used for over 1000 years. As to going rancid...NO, they do not...IF...the surface is cleaned properly after each use and wiped down with fresh oil that is blotted off with warm water...

I would note, the reason Coconut Oil is one of (if not my primary) favorite oils for food prep surfaces is its very neutral affect as a food grade/based "non-drying oil." Even more so than Olive Oil. Anaphylaxis is extremely rare with coconut oils, (I have never heard or read of it happening) and one of the reasons it has been used safely for so long historically. Contact dermatitis is also virtual nonexistent with Coconut Oils....Nothing is 100% safe...other than dry wood, which some do prefer. 

Mineral Oil treatment are a "new concept" based more on trend (and the petroleum industry pushing byproduct onto the market to boost profits) than in a good practice based on known (and proven) traditions. I know of few Chiefs that would ever tolerate mineral oil ever getting anywhere near a dish they are preparing. Mineral oils are not a material of "food"...they have (depending on manufacture) very strong tastes/flavors, and are actually a laxative. Not a quality I personally want around food or food prep surfaces. Mineral Oils are touted as colorless and odorless but do have a strong flavor, especially to those with sensitive palates. *As a by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline they really have no place near food preparation surfaces in my (et al) view. * It's long been used as a common ingredient in lotions, creams, ointments, and cosmetics, but even these are now being determined to be poor for human skin contact over duration. It's lightweight and inexpensive for industry to* manufacture from waste byproduct* and that is the main reason it has been so thoroughly marketed in many products of modernity. For me, and what I have seen, this is one of those materials that came into fashion based on "marketing" not from actual good practice or proven long standing tradition...

Before I end this post, let me speak to the other woods often used, that probably shouldn't be. One of the most common currently isn't a wood at all...Its a grass!!...and that would be Bamboo. Now I love bamboo, and it is a pretty cool material, to say the least. Why don't I like it for cutting boards? The main reason is it dulls the crap out of good knives because of the natural silica content in the cell structure of the plant. I also know that many fall apart because they are not made well. Like most (if not all) good cutting surfaces...*END GRAIN IS BEST!!!*...and if (I have made a few lite duty ones) I make one of Bamboo, it is only made with an "end grain" orientation. Channeling in the surface needs to be of a nature (like V channel) that can be cleaned well and easily if these are used at all. I don't recommend them nor put them on my projects.

The next group is "nut woods." I don't recommend any of these typically because of allergic reactions and toxicity, as well as, tainting the flavor of foods, which they can do. These same reasons are why I personally do not ever recommend tropical or other "unknown" hardwoods, as many of these too can taint flavor or have toxins in them or the potential to. Cherry to has a distinct flavor to those with sensitive palates, as well as silicate in the fibers. Oaks and related species are entirely too full of tannic acid, and are "open-celled" which is not a good thing to have on a most types of cutting boards. There are exceptions for such as end grain orientation White Oak species, and only for such things as the culinary arts aimed solely at Smoke and/or Barbecued meats, but hat is a very niche area of cuisine.

Good Luck with your project!

j


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

White oaks are not open celled if you really mean the structure of the vessel elements. There's a needed edit. 
The vessels are occluded by tyloses from the adjacent radial ray cells. 
All of the rum & whiskey and sherry and wine industry of the entire world depends upon that fact. 
I have no bias but to use the wood anatomy to my advantage.

I'm a retired dendrology professor who made a part of his career with a detailed understanding of wood anatomy.
Nothing at all to do with incidental incursions on food and drink.

Finish: if vegetable oils are drawn down into the wood where there is no air or oxygen, 
it is difficult if not impossible for that oil to oxidize to what is referred to as rancid.
Rancid is an oxidative result of a neglected surface treatment.
Charles' Law of gas physics can be employed in 3-5 minutes for an oven-baked oil finish
which cannot be washed out at anything less that 350F.

You ought to try it, it worked on 70 spoons, 30 forks and a few dishes 
far better than I ever imagined it would.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> White oaks are not open-celled if you really mean the structure of the vessel elements. There's a needed edit. The vessels are occluded by tyloses from the adjacent radial ray cells. All of the rum & whiskey and sherry and wine industry of the entire world depends upon that fact. I have no bias but to use the wood anatomy to my advantage.


Since that post is drawn from a "boilerplate" I thank you for the very constructive feedback...Too often hard to find...

What I did write was:

"....There are exceptions for such as end grain orientation White Oak species, and only for such things as the culinary arts aimed solely at Smoke and/or Barbecued meats, but that is a very niche area of cuisine..."

To your point...Would this read better in your eye's:

"....There is the exception to this within the Quercus species group and that is the White Oaks. These, of course, have a long history in the distillation of spirits, and within certain culinary arts aimed solely at Smoke and/or Barbecued meats, but that is a very niche area of cuisine...



Robson Valley said:


> Finish: if vegetable oils are drawn down into the wood where there is no air or oxygen, it is difficult if not impossible for that oil to oxidize to what is referred to as rancid. Rancid is an oxidative result of a neglected surface treatment. Charles' Law of gas physics can be employed in 3-5 minutes for an oven-baked oil finish which cannot be washed out at anything less that 350F. You ought to try it, it worked on 70 spoons, 30 forks and a few dishes
> far better than I ever imagined it would.


That is about the most erudite explanation to botanical based "non-drying oils" I have ever read...

Please, may I reference that comment in the future? It speaks to the reality that extra virgin olive oil in sealed flasks can last a very long time. Much thanks for the in-depth expansion of the topic...

With deep appreciation for your time to post on my comment...

j


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The anatomy fits the application. Very practical. 
The point about the vanillins is important, too, for the additions that they contribute to the flavor of the beverage.
Home brew wine stores usually sell white oak chips for the purpose of altering the maturing character of home made wines.

I'd rather not use oaks as BBQ smoke woods. Just too bitter for me. Instead, I've become accustomed to using apple wood
before any others. I have a Breville Smoker Gun for the kitchen when winter is too cold and dark up here to run a smoker outside. 

I stumbled across the oven baking oil finish process some years ago. Not my idea at all. Just an application of Charles' Law.
The oven heat only expands and drives out some wood air, soon to be replaced with the oil of your choice upon cooling.
This can be done with any wax of your choice, too. I use Greek Kalamata EV olive oil only because I buy it in 3 liter tins for my kitchen.


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## crookedkut (Jan 28, 2018)

What about Live Oak, is this a good wood for cutting boards?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

crookedkut said:


> What about Live Oak, is this a good wood for cutting boards?



Only for "dry boards," and I still prefer grain end up first..Quarter/Rift sawn still the best if in board form...If plan sawn wood, then only bark up orientation for the pieces.

For "wet boards" this species (Roberson Valley what say you?) is in the "White Oak" group and therefore appropriate for certain meat cuisine...

My 2¢

j


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## PA WOODCHUCK (Feb 11, 2018)

Would like to see photos of shop made cutting boards?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

PA WOODCHUCK said:


> Would like to see photos of shop made cutting boards?


I'm sure others have their views and versions on this...

For me, when I do just plain cutting board...I do like the butcher block style. In the "plank form" My preferred method (for just a board style) is just a live edge green slab or cookie with a dovetail stiffening spline wedged into the bottom to keep the board flat if in the slab version, to allow for seasonal expansion and contraction... Cookies should be waxed and oil immediately to keep from blowing apart...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

If "Live Oak" is really _Quercus virginiana_, and in the 'white oak' group of species, 
that means that the vessels are naturally plugged, that the wood is sealed and should be OK as a cutting board.

I would be really fussy to try to pick out pieces with really wild & interesting grain to look at.
That gets lost in the end grain boards.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> If "Live Oak" is really _Quercus virginiana_, and in the 'white oak' group of species,
> that means that the vessels are naturally plugged, that the wood is sealed and should be OK as a cutting board.
> 
> I would be really fussy to try to pick out pieces with really wild & interesting grain to look at.
> That gets lost in the end grain boards.


My addition to RV's comment (which I agree with 100%)...If board stock and not end grain...The wild grain is the way to go, and the best way to get it (in my view) is riven wood!


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

OK so I drag out the wooden maul, wedges and a froe. Which way do we go? Radial or tangential to see the best?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> OK so I drag out the wooden maul, wedges and a froe. Which way do we go? Radial or tangential to see the best?


On all species it's Radial...

Tangential riven work is unique and specific to certain wood items and species that lend themselves to such splitting modalities...

I would also offer, in the way of encouragement, that this is a great "handcraft" item and the most rewarding of work also. 

No noise...

No dust, or very little...

Basic hand tools...

A few natural finishes...and you have an item of use that could last generations...

I would suggest further, that as a professional that had to learn efficiency, I can usually go much fast from raw materials to finish sellable market item way faster than some trying to "re-invent the wheel" and using power tools alone...

Good luck, 

j


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## andr0id (Jan 11, 2018)

I would like to build a cutting board like this one. 
Hard maple seems to be the obvious choice for the bones.

What would be a safe dark red or brown wood to use for the meat parts? 
The author used aged Douglas Fir, but I don't have that.

This site says cherry is OK, and I have a lot of cherry scrap. Do you agree?
https://www.cuttingboard.com/blog/why-some-woods-are-better-than-others-in-the-kitchen/










https://ibuildit.ca/projects/rack-o-ribs-cutting-board/


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

andr0id said:


> I would like to build a cutting board like this one.
> Hard maple seems to be the obvious choice for the bones.
> 
> What would be a safe dark red or brown wood to use for the meat parts?
> ...


Maples come in a full range of colors and "tea stains" (which are food safe) can be affix to the maple wood to darken it a great deal, as is the 焼き杉 (Yakisugi) methods which can go from black to just dark in color, or combine the two methods...There are other's if interested. I don't recommend cherry because of the silicates in it and the taste it can add, but I'm picky when it comes to cutting surfaces...Conifers like Douglas Fir are an absolute no in my book for any cutting board dry or wet!!!


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## Echo415 (Apr 3, 2018)

andr0id said:


> I would like to build a cutting board like this one.
> Hard maple seems to be the obvious choice for the bones.
> 
> What would be a safe dark red or brown wood to use for the meat parts?
> ...


Pretty much a work of art. It looks great and I'd be very proud if it were my project to put on the wall but that's not a cutting board. They have a purpose and when they become too "artistic", it compromises the basics of it's purpose. They are a tool just as much as the knife in your hands.

I'd be afraid to make the first knife cut into it...it would ruin the finish and bug the hell out of me.


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## PA WOODCHUCK (Feb 11, 2018)

This is turning into a learning test as I feel it may not be the best when done. My question looks like I will need to sand off a lot to make it level. Way more than need to remove since it's not level. That said can router be used on hard maple end-grain? If so I will make a jig(photo to follow) in a few days.

But I'm having fun and learning...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

PA WOODCHUCK said:


> This is turning into a learning test as I feel it may not be the best when done. My question looks like I will need to sand off a lot to make it level. Way more than need to remove since it's not level. That said can router be used on hard maple end-grain? If so I will make a jig(photo to follow) in a few days.
> 
> But I'm having fun and learning...


Yep...A router if by hand...a Scrub Plane, then Smoother and Scraper if by hand tool...


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## t11t5 (Dec 12, 2012)

Here is a cutting board I built out of Cherry, Ash, Walnut, and Osage Orange.


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## crookedkut (Jan 28, 2018)

Dont know if it has been mentioned but what about Live Oak, is this good for cutting boards?

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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I use Cherry all the time in our end grain cutting boards. It's a bit soft for face and edge grain boards but looks nice.

David


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Those fancy boards are beautiful to look at. Hang it on the wall.

I have been doing most of my kitchen prep with cleavers for decades. 
My chopping boards are pine shelving glue-ups with some olive oil.
I'm concerned about protecting the quality of my cleaver edges so I've been using the softer wood.
I can work for far longer that way. Softer wood is better.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> Those fancy boards are beautiful to look at. Hang it on the wall...Softer wood is better.


My advice against conifers for cutting boards is strictly from a culinary and taste perspective...and my palate...LOL...is very picky (or silly) that way...

Beyond that (and frankly, I don't think most folks could taste a difference when food is prepared on conifer compared to deciduous woods) a softwood board is more than functional and much easier on cutlery edges for sure, though their lifespan will be much shorter in a professional or serious cooks kitchen...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Your own, home-grown digital cook book, assembled over 35 years? Mine is.
Recipe count is about 275, I think.

The conifer glue-up is done horizontally = shelving off cut. 
That way, the resin ducts are not cut open to offend.
Using solvent partition, any surface resin dissolved in the olive oil long ago and that was easily washed off and reoiled when dry.

I have another board of hard bird's-eye maple hat seems to withstand to abuse of bread knives.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> Your own, home-grown digital cook book, assembled over 35 years? Mine is.
> Recipe count is about 275, I think.
> 
> The conifer glue-up is done horizontally = shelving off cut.
> ...


Thanks, RV...Love your post! Keep stick'n to that perch Brother...!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

crookedkut said:


> Dont know if it has been mentioned but what about Live Oak, is this good for cutting boards?


The term "Live Oak" describes many species of tree. Some are "white oak" and some are "red oak" which differ between closed and open pores in the wood. That makes a big difference in the suitability of the wood for a cutting board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak

Personally, I would not use oak for cutting boards. I prefer hard maple with small pieces of walnut for decorative interest.


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## crookedkut (Jan 28, 2018)

Tool Agnostic said:


> The term "Live Oak" describes many species of tree. Some are "white oak" and some are "red oak" which differ between closed and open pores in the wood. That makes a big difference in the suitability of the wood for a cutting board.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak
> 
> Personally, I would not use oak for cutting boards. I prefer hard maple with small pieces of walnut for decorative interest.


It this tree. It was given to me.









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## PA WOODCHUCK (Feb 11, 2018)

PA WOODCHUCK said:


> This is turning into a learning test as I feel it may not be the best when done. My question looks like I will need to sand off a lot to make it level. Way more than need to remove since it's not level. That said can router be used on hard maple end-grain? If so I will make a jig(photo to follow) in a few days.
> 
> But I'm having fun and learning...




Made this and going to see what happens


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