# Advice finishing cherry project.



## Tim G (May 10, 2012)

I have 2 questions. 
First I have a solid cherry wood top with some small holes that are going to somehow be filled at some point during the finishing process. 



















I dig through a lot of lumber when I picked this out but couldn't eliminate this. Besides it is very characteristic of cherry. So the look of it doesn't bother me. What I'm concerned with is that during normal usage the hole might fill with dust or food particles or whatever. So will the finish fill them if I finish like normal. Or should I fill with something that will keep the natural look. I use general finishes WB enduro sanding sealer and GF enduro pre-cat urethane satin. Sprayed with a Graco hvlp system. 

2nd question. 
I need procedure and good product suggestions for staining cherry dark. Yes unfortunately I have to stain the cherry dark. And yes I know it will darken beautifully on its own. 

Thank you in advance for advice on these questions and any other advice you think might help.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I would first use a wood filler that is stainable so its not as noticable, then sand the entire top down to 180. I always scuff sand the area that needs to be filled lightly first with 180, then fill the holes. just scuff sand lightly! Just an extra step I like to take for good measure. Your prep work always needs to be done first before finishing the wood.

Second depends on what shade of a dark color you want. Do you want it on the warm side or a cool side? Do you intend to spray the stain? I always like to use a dye stain, washcoat, wipe stain, sealer, then either 1 or 2 coats of whatever sheen topcoat that I need or want.

Personally, if you want it dark, Ive done several Cherry pieces using a dark "chocolate" stain with good results. I have a formula for this using SW concentrates, but not with GF products. Just mix Black, yellow, and just enough red to counter the green from the black and yellow and you've got it. You don't want to add too much red because the cherry already has a cast of red to it. This stain should be as strong as the strength of a "Java" stain to accomplish this. Make sure to do a sample piece first.

This is a finish I came up for a customer using my "chocolate" colored stain on a cherry top with rubberwood pedestals, I think this may be what your looking for with a 20 sheen topcoat:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are going to stain dark I would fill the voids with a walnut wood putty and sand it. Before you stain the wood cherry is prone to go blotchy so I would use a pre-stain conditioner. Once you use the conditioner you will need to use a darker stain than you would otherwise. Conditioners are a sealer and hinder staining a little. If you can't achieve the color you want with your wood stain you can suppliment the color with dyes. You just can't put multiple coats of oil stain on or allow any to dry on the surface. Any stain allowed to dry on the surface will cause adhesion problems with the finish. Once the stain has dried overnight you can topcoat with your Enduro sealer and finish as you wish. After the first coat of finish be careful sanding between coats with 220 grit paper. Just do a very light sanding on the first coat and do better on the second. It's very easy to sand through the finish and take color off, especially on any corners. 

The next time you want a cherry look stained dark you might build out of alder. Once stained it will look the same and be much cheaper.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> If you are going to stain dark I would fill the voids with a walnut wood putty and sand it. Before you stain the wood cherry is prone to go blotchy so I would use a pre-stain conditioner. Once you use the conditioner you will need to use a darker stain than you would otherwise. Conditioners are a sealer and hinder staining a little. If you can't achieve the color you want with your wood stain you can suppliment the color with dyes. You just can't put multiple coats of oil stain on or allow any to dry on the surface. Any stain allowed to dry on the surface will cause adhesion problems with the finish. Once the stain has dried overnight you can topcoat with your Enduro sealer and finish as you wish. After the first coat of finish be careful sanding between coats with 220 grit paper. Just do a very light sanding on the first coat and do better on the second. It's very easy to sand through the finish and take color off, especially on any corners.
> 
> The next time you want a cherry look stained dark you might build out of alder. Once stained it will look the same and be much cheaper.


Spot on Steve.....and that's why I suggested using dye stains since he wants a dark look. Its hard to go really dark using wipe stains and you run into adhesion problems when you try to "pile on the color". Even a straight black wipe stain isn't as dark as one might think it is after its wiped off, and straight black wipe stain wouldn't have much liveliness on cherry anyway. Plus the fact of needing to use a pre-conditioner to prevent blotchiness first makes it even harder to go dark. Much easier with dyes!

Ah yes, Alder. "The poor mans cherry". I love finishing alder over cherry myself. Some experienced wood finishers cant tell the difference between alder and cherry when finished the same. Some say birch is an alternate of cherry too, but its easier to tell the difference.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Spot on Steve.....and that's why I suggested using dye stains since he wants a dark look. Its hard to go really dark using wipe stains and you run into adhesion problems when you try to "pile on the color". Even a straight black wipe stain isn't as dark as one might think it is after its wiped off, and straight black wipe stain wouldn't have much liveliness on cherry anyway. Plus the fact of needing to use a pre-conditioner to prevent blotchiness first makes it even harder to go dark. Much easier with dyes!
> 
> Ah yes, Alder. "The poor mans cherry". I love finishing alder over cherry myself. Some experienced wood finishers cant tell the difference between alder and cherry when finished the same. Some say birch is an alternate of cherry too, but its easier to tell the difference.


You would be surprised the number of folks that come here talking about putting 2-3 coats of stain on until they got the color they wanted. When I started finishing it was before the internet and you really couldn't get information on everything so a lot of these things I learned the hard way. In the early days when I stained furniture and the color was slightly light, I would put the stain in a sprayer and spray a light coat over the furniture and let it dry overnight. It wasn't long before furniture started coming back with the finish pealing off. It didn't take long to figure out the finish was bonding to the stain instead of the wood. 

I don't care for using dyes on the first coat. To me it tends to make the wood mottled like lacquer stains. I prefer to use an oil stain first and if it needs more color then use the dye over it more or less a toner. 

The nice thing about alder is you can take the same project and make it look like cherry, walnut or mahogany if you get the stain color right.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> You would be surprised the number of folks that come here talking about putting 2-3 coats of stain on until they got the color they wanted. When I started finishing it was before the internet and you really couldn't get information on everything so a lot of these things I learned the hard way. In the early days when I stained furniture and the color was slightly light, I would put the stain in a sprayer and spray a light coat over the furniture and let it dry overnight. It wasn't long before furniture started coming back with the finish pealing off. It didn't take long to figure out the finish was bonding to the stain instead of the wood.
> 
> I don't care for using dyes on the first coat. To me it tends to make the wood mottled like lacquer stains. I prefer to use an oil stain first and if it needs more color then use the dye over it more or less a toner.
> 
> The nice thing about alder is you can take the same project and make it look like cherry, walnut or mahogany if you get the stain color right.


Well, you can make a wipe stain darker with multiple coats.....as long as you put a sealer between each coat as you would glazes, but I still wouldn't recommend it LOL. Only problem with that is the finish will start to look muddy looking and block out the grain. The thing about dyes is you can get 90% of your color with just one dye coat and still have grain definition. Most of my finishes that's exactly what I do and I end up with good depth and never have to worry about adhesion. The table I posted above uses a weak wipe stain, its mostly a dark dye stain with plenty of grain definition. Ive done dark expresso finish jobs and only used weak wipe stain as well to get to my final color. The only time I use toners is on a bare wood to even out wood colors "If" a sap stain or an equilizer doesn't work for me, or if I need a driftwood look then I use vinyl pigment bases cut all to crap and spray a wet coat.

You can also use "spray no-wipe stains" by reducing a wipe stain with 70% Naptha. You can layer several light coats over a sealer and get to the color you need. I had to come up with a spray no-wipe stain for a kitchen cabinet customer in Canada that wanted a light grey/green finish. They wanted 2 steps for color and 2 steps for clear. I made a no-wipe stain for them to run in 2 color steps and then apply 2 coats of precat lacquer and they loved it. Its always more ways to skin a cat, but I feel you cant go wrong with dye stains if you want a deep finish.

Your right about the alder, I would rather use alder than cherry.


----------



## Bob the Painter (Jan 24, 2012)

I like the antique cherry dyes stain from GF a lot, if you want to stay transparent looking, maybe the thing to do is get some waterputty and precolor it a bit then take some of the dye or stain and very careully blend it out--I do a lot of touch up. A recent cherry touch up was done with GF antique cherry waterbase dye or dyestain adding a littel mixol gold but a dot of universal tint would have worked too. The area was all ready sealed with GF HP and a little more clear can be added to blend out the repair--guess it depends on your top coat how long you can wait to touch up after you fill.


----------



## guglipm63 (Feb 27, 2013)

I see that staining has been gone over very well. As for filling in the voids you could consider epoxy tinted with India ink to match the other streaking.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Try my lye treatment on a scrap before you stain. It will allow you to go as dark as you need and won't look like you stained it at all. Unless your matching something already stained. 

Al


----------



## Getting better (Dec 3, 2009)

I've had great luck darkening cherry with Potassium Dichromate. It's a powder you mix with water. It's pretty noxious so do it in a well ventilated space and wear a mask. For a finish I use Waterlox or wipe on poly. For the holes I use superglue. Fill the hole and scrape the top flush. I can't even find them in the end. The PD will darken as much as you want, controlled by how much powder and water you use.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fallbrook hoby said:


> I've had great luck darkening cherry with Potassium Dichromate. It's a powder you mix with water. It's pretty noxious so do it in a well ventilated space and wear a mask. For a finish I use Waterlox or wipe on poly. For the holes I use superglue. Fill the hole and scrape the top flush. I can't even find them in the end. The PD will darken as much as you want, controlled by how much powder and water you use.


How far do you have to go to find potassium dichromate? I get Drano in the supermarket. Same deal. however much you mix determines how dark. 

Al


----------



## Getting better (Dec 3, 2009)

Al,
I bought a small jar of Potassium Dichromate on line a few years ago. Can't remember where (Google?) but I've use les than half after several cherry projects. I don't recall how much it cost but it wasn't much. Are you saying Drano is Potassium Dichromate?


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fallbrook hoby said:


> Al,
> I bought a small jar of Potassium Dichromate on line a few years ago. Can't remember where (Google?) but I've use les than half after several cherry projects. I don't recall how much it cost but it wasn't much. Are you saying Drano is Potassium Dichromate?


No.
See I have posted here many times how to age cherry wood to match other pieces built years ago. I was first to post in this thread to the OP that he should try my treatment. Which doesn't "stain" the wood. Lye is a common chemical. If Potassium Dichromate was easy to obtain, I would try it and maybe use it. If it has no common usage and difficult to get, I'll stick with the lye.

Al


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Most of the newer dye concentrates made today are high strength
monochromatic dye solutions that are very lightfast. It takes a very long time for the color to change with these new dyes. That's why I always encourage people to mix their own stains to achieve the color they need. I also suggest using acetone/ethanol/thinner combinations instead of water because the solvent based dyes remain more lightfast than the dye/water base stains made do. ​​ ​​ Everyone has different ways about going about staining wood. But for example, I'm not going through the trouble of using ammonia to fume oak when I can make a stain to mimic the same effect.​​ ​​ ​​ ​​ ​​


----------



## Getting better (Dec 3, 2009)

Al
http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Dichromate-100gm-P6661.aspxf

Search for Potassium dichromate. $10.00 and it will last a very long time. Try it, I think you will like the results and reliability.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

This is just my opinion but I have tried all the chemical stains and they can blotch just like dyes or pigments if not applied properly. They are also VERY hazardous to your health, even more so than the crazy stuff we use already. Also looking at the results with a critical eye I really don't see enough of a difference to warrant the risk. 

For dark cherry I would spray a dye stain first. You have to know how to do this or it will look horrible. On cherry you can't apply the stain wet or blotching will occur. The correct technique is to spray the stain on evenly but don't allow it to puddle on the surface. Here is a video I did to demonstrate the 2 different techniques for spraying dye stain. 

I wouldn't fill the pitch pockets until after I stained and sealed. Then I would do a burn in with either Konig or Mohawk burn in sticks. That way I can see the color and get a perfectly level fill and color match. 

The only holes I fill in the raw wood are big knots and then I use bondo or epoxy.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fallbrook hoby said:


> Al
> http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Dichromate-100gm-P6661.aspxf
> 
> Search for Potassium dichromate. $10.00 and it will last a very long time. Try it, I think you will like the results and reliability.


Thanks for the link. I read up on it and it's also used on other woods. Lye is really good for cherry only.

Have you ever tried lye? Mix two table spoons in a pint jar. Less for lighter results. Lightly final sand and finish. 

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fallbrook hoby said:


> Al
> http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Dichromate-100gm-P6661.aspxf
> 
> Search for Potassium dichromate. $10.00 and it will last a very long time. Try it, I think you will like the results and reliability.


Shoot dad the link doesn't work. Or is it just me.

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> This is just my opinion but I have tried all the chemical stains and they can blotch just like dyes or pigments if not applied properly. They are also VERY hazardous to your health, even more so than the crazy stuff we use already. Also looking at the results with a critical eye I really don't see enough of a difference to warrant the risk.
> 
> For dark cherry I would spray a dye stain first. You have to know how to do this or it will look horrible. On cherry you can't apply the stain wet or blotching will occur. The correct technique is to spray the stain on evenly but don't allow it to puddle on the surface. Here is a video I did to demonstrate the 2 different techniques for spraying dye stain.
> 
> ...


Rick your points have merit but I also think we live in a different world today. We're far too afraid of chems than we should be. I could never make it in Calif. So many of the warnings just have no backing and are just another hyper scare.

As for the staining or darkening of cherry. I believe if a person just wants to get rid of the salmon color of cherry this lye treatment is superior to stains and dies. Nothing is added to the wood to muddy the grain and loose clarity. You can match an existing piece that was never stained. Your just catching it up. Can be done by a beginner









This is a new head board next to a 25 year old existing head board. 









This is how it finished.

Al


----------



## EastEndWS (Aug 6, 2014)

Has anyone using lye to darken cherry have any problems with adhesion due to a change in the pH?? Do you neutralize in any way??

Have there been any problems "down the road" with the caustic leaching or bleeding out and affecting the finish?


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Al, I have used sodium hydroxide many times to darken cherry. I am very familiar with the technique and you can get blotching on some cherry just like with stain. To keep it from blotching you need to spray it. I don't know about you but I'm not spraying lye.  A nice red brown dye stain properly applied will get you the same color and clarity. Just for the record, lye is a poison and very caustic, not something to be played with lightly.

For those of you looking for lye the A part of 2 part wood bleach is sodium hydroxide, just don't use the B part. 

As far as problems with the finish, the lye MUST be neutralized with vinegar or acetic acid before applying any acid catalyzed finishes (conversion varnish, pre-cat lacquer etc) or it will neutralize the acid in the catalyst and cause the finish to wrinkle in subsequent coats or to just lose all hardness and possibly shatter.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> Al, I have used sodium hydroxide many times to darken cherry. I am very familiar with the technique and you can get blotching on some cherry just like with stain. To keep it from blotching you need to spray it. I don't know about you but I'm not spraying lye.  A nice red brown dye stain properly applied will get you the same color and clarity. Just for the record, lye is a poison and very caustic, not something to be played with lightly.
> 
> For those of you looking for lye the A part of 2 part wood bleach is sodium hydroxide, just don't use the B part.
> 
> As far as problems with the finish, the lye MUST be neutralized with vinegar or acetic acid before applying any acid catalyzed finishes (conversion varnish, pre-cat lacquer etc) or it will neutralize the acid in the catalyst and cause the finish to wrinkle in subsequent coats or to just lose all hardness and possibly shatter.


 
Very true. The point is also the original poster wanted the cherry DARK. I think it would be hard to get to the color I posted a picture of in #2 with Lye. As for the 2 pictures posted by Al, your right again Rick, you could get there easy with a med red/brown stain and keep the clarity. Thats why I suggested a "chocolate" stain to get it dark.

I also use a 60/40 blend of Acetone/Alcohol for my stains when spraying cherry. No blotching at all......but you do have to know how to spray wood, and that comes with practice.


----------



## DonAlexander (Apr 12, 2012)

*If the link didn't work...*

Try this link to the home page,

http://www.sciencecompany.com/

and then search for potassium dichromate. 

Don


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

EastEndWS said:



> Has anyone using lye to darken cherry have any problems with adhesion due to a change in the pH?? Do you neutralize in any way??
> 
> Have there been any problems "down the road" with the caustic leaching or bleeding out and affecting the finish?


I have not in many years of use. I have pieces in my house that are more than twenty five years old. If I have to go dark I wash it with clean water and a rag. Now having said that. I can't say for sure if you use poly because I have never finished furniture with poly.

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> Al, I have used sodium hydroxide many times to darken cherry. I am very familiar with the technique and you can get blotching on some cherry just like with stain. To keep it from blotching you need to spray it. I don't know about you but I'm not spraying lye.  A nice red brown dye stain properly applied will get you the same color and clarity. Just for the record, lye is a poison and very caustic, not something to be played with lightly.
> 
> For those of you looking for lye the A part of 2 part wood bleach is sodium hydroxide, just don't use the B part.
> 
> As far as problems with the finish, the lye MUST be neutralized with vinegar or acetic acid before applying any acid catalyzed finishes (conversion varnish, pre-cat lacquer etc) or it will neutralize the acid in the catalyst and cause the finish to wrinkle in subsequent coats or to just lose all hardness and possibly shatter.


In all my experience for over 25 years. I have never had a single problem with it. But then I'm not spraying it on either. It wipes on and off with a sponge or rag. It dries it minutes. Sometimes I neutralize it with plain water. Sometimes I go to finish right away sometimes I wait days. The effect is still the same. 

Again, I'm speaking of matching existing non stained cherry. A very uncomplicated process. Stain and dyes are never going to look the same. And of course the new piece will in fact age, and then what do you have?

Good luck as a beginner spraying on dye or stain. Might be fine on a set of book ends. Seems lot of posters here forget that 90% of the questions and queries here are asked by beginners. No spray guns, booths and catalyzed finishes. No experience with mixing stains for color match and oh my I use a dye and now my wood is rough again. What do I do? 

BTW grab the can of easy off oven cleaner from your wife before it kills her. Same chems in that. Lye soap is the best soap you can find. Your really making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

Don't waste your money and time on wood bleach. Just grab a bottle of Draino. One of the guys here tried it for the first time and then sent me a PM on how he has never seen such a beautiful cherry finish in his life. 

Shoot it's a wonder we lived.

Al


----------



## Tim G (May 10, 2012)

Hello it's Tim the original poster of this thread.first thanks to everyone for the great responses. It's beyond what I thought I'd get. Looks like I have a lot to try regarding darkening cherry. I am more or less a beginner when it comes to finish. I've been doing it for about 5 years in my garage. So that's like 3-4 good projects a year. I have never done it professionally. On the other hand I've been a woodworker for about 38years. So hear is a pic of the project that the questions refer to. 









It's very close to being done. 

So eventually I would like to try spraying the dye stain. But it looks like it takes accumulated skill which I don't have. So I'm going to try on scrapes the conditioner and stain technique and wiping lye technique. I'm pretty impressed with the results that Al posted. The last thing I want to do is screw this up. 

So Steve. Is there a particular brand stain and conditioner that you like that I should try. Is minwax ok?

And Al I need some specific steps to achieve the look you showed in the photo. Do you have a link to this procedure? Also do you use liquid drano or I think I've seen granules? 

By the way. I do live in Sacramento Ca. 

When I do finish I generally stain with wipe on natural oil stain. Then let dry for at least a couple days. Then I clear coat with W B General Finishes sanding sealer then pre-cat urethane. Sprayed with a Graco hvlp system. I've had great results. 









I've just never had to darken cherry. 

So I'm happy with the responses I've received. And enjoyed the debate about lye. I'm just hoping the drano sold in Ca. is lye and not something else. I'll find out. 
Thanks again. I truly did enjoy every response.


----------



## Tim G (May 10, 2012)

Al I looked at your previous post and found your steps for this lye procedure. Thanks. I'm looking forward to trying this.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

EastEndWS said:


> Has anyone using lye to darken cherry have any problems with adhesion due to a change in the pH?? Do you neutralize in any way??
> 
> Have there been any problems "down the road" with the caustic leaching or bleeding out and affecting the finish?


You don't want to put lye on cherry unless you have to. It adds a salt to the wood which is hard to get rid of. Anyway you would use vinegar to neutralize it but that doesn't mean it can't come back and haunt you. Lye is a paint remover and if the wood gets wet in any way the lye can start eating on the finish. It won't really darken the wood but add green to it which would make the wood less red. You could do the same thing with dyes or if you were looking to jury-rig something use a portland cement solution.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> In all my experience for over 25 years. I have never had a single problem with it. But then I'm not spraying it on either. It wipes on and off with a sponge or rag. It dries it minutes. Sometimes I neutralize it with plain water. Sometimes I go to finish right away sometimes I wait days. The effect is still the same.
> 
> Again, I'm speaking of matching existing non stained cherry. A very uncomplicated process. Stain and dyes are never going to look the same. And of course the new piece will in fact age, and then what do you have?
> 
> ...


What you say is true to some experienced finishers.....but on the other hand, this gentleman who started this thread is NOT an experienced finisher and he even says this. Why someone would even talk about "potassium dichromate" and "draino" in the same thread to a beginner is beyond me. In the wrong hands, potassium dichromate could be very harmful to someone if not used right. It is acutely and chronically harmful to your health and must be handled and disposed of appropriately.

To the poster, f you want a dark finish for that cherry, you are not going to get there with lye. Also, if you start pilling on stains (other than dye stains) on top of the lye to try and darken it, your finish will eventually become muddy looking. What Steve says above using lye is also true.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Tim G said:



> Al I looked at your previous post and found your steps for this lye procedure. Thanks. I'm looking forward to trying this.


Best to sand a few scraps just as you did the project and test on them. Use warm water, liquid or solid makes no difference. Gloves are a good idea. When you apply, keep moving as the process is almost instant. I also wet the surface to raise the grain. Sand to knock it down. Then when your finished with the lye the raised grain will be far less to sand down. 

Al


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Great looking cabinet Tim. Make sure whatever you do to do samples on scrap cherry first. Finish them all the way and make sure you're happy before starting on your project. It would be a nightmare to have to sand the finish back off all those inside corners.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> You don't want to put lye on cherry unless you have to. It adds a salt to the wood which is hard to get rid of. Anyway you would use vinegar to neutralize it but that doesn't mean it can't come back and haunt you. Lye is a paint remover and if the wood gets wet in any way the lye can start eating on the finish. It won't really darken the wood but add green to it which would make the wood less red. You could do the same thing with dyes or if you were looking to jury-rig something use a portland cement solution.


Steve

With all due respect we have been doing this for many years with zero problems. Also if you neutralize with vinegar you also run the risk of fading the colors and making the finish uneven, which is one of the reasons to use this process. It's very easy to get right and even. If I'm making the project dark I just do a light wash with water and a rag.

All my cherry projects have been through the lye treatment except the first few. 









This treatment doesn't turn cherry green. It does other woods but not cherry. Also after the lye works with the wood it greatly loses its punch.

Al


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

RandyReed said:


> Well, you can make a wipe stain darker with multiple coats.....as long as you put a sealer between each coat as you would glazes, but I still wouldn't recommend it LOL.


Multiple coats of an oil base stain renders it pretty much useless. Why bother to even mention it?


















.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Steve
> 
> With all due respect we have been doing this for many years with zero problems. Also if you neutralize with vinegar you also run the risk of fading the colors and making the finish uneven, which is one of the reasons to use this process. It's very easy to get right and even. If I'm making the project dark I just do. light wash with water and a rag.
> 
> ...


My experience with lye is from a hot dip tank I used to have to strip with. Maybe it was because it soaked longer but I got to hating lye because no matter how much you rinsed it and neutralized it the salts would come back. Sometimes even after the furniture dried and sat unfinished you would see it cluster in the corners like mold.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> What you say is true to some experienced finishers.....but on the other hand, this gentleman who started this thread is NOT an experienced finisher and he even says this. Why someone would even talk about "potassium dichromate" and "draino" in the same thread to a beginner is beyond me. In the wrong hands, potassium dichromate could be very harmful to someone if not used right. It is acutely and chronically harmful to your health and must be handled and disposed of appropriately.
> 
> To the poster, f you want a dark finish for that cherry, you are not going to get there with lye. Also, if you start pilling on stains (other than dye stains) on top of the lye to try and darken it, your finish will eventually become muddy looking. What Steve says above using lye is also true.


My guess it you haven't use the lye treatment Randy. The lye is used to "stain" the wood. If I mix a strong enough solution it will turn the wood very dark. And yet it won't look anything like stain. Did you miss the pictures I posted. No stain was used to produce a very beautiful finish. 

It's quite easy to do and I think a beginner will do well to use it. Most like me use it all the time once they do it the first time. the grain of the wood is completely unadulterated and therein "lyes" the beauty.

Al


----------



## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

Personally I don't see why anyone would want to improvise a means of staining wood. There are stains and dyes available which are completely compatable with any finish you would want to put over it. I'm sure the lye and potassium dichromate would work but I would be afraid of the long term effects these substances would have on the new finish.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> Multiple coats of an oil base stain renders it pretty much useless. Why bother to even mention it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know its useless, and I also said I would never recommend doing that as it will muddy up the grain, not to mention possible adhesion problems if done incorrectly. I was replying to steves post, so I think maybe you took that out of context. 

I hardly ever use a dark wipe stain as I always get most of my color through my dye stains. I always get my color first with dyes, then maybe a weak penetrating stain or a weak wipe stain to help bring the grain out. Sometimes I might even "pretreat" the wood with either water or ethanol or maybe an ethanol/acetone mix to help pop the grain even more depending on the look im trying to achieve....and depending on the wood I am using.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> My guess it you haven't use the lye treatment Randy. The lye is used to "stain" the wood. If I mix a strong enough solution it will turn the wood very dark. And yet it won't look anything like stain. Did you miss the pictures I posted. No stain was used to produce a very beautiful finish.
> 
> It's quite easy to do and I think a beginner will do well to use it. Most like me use it all the time once they do it the first time. the grain of the wood is completely unadulterated and therein "lyes" the beauty.
> 
> Al


Ive seen alot of lye treatments done before but no, Ive never done any lye treatments myself. Out of all the lye treatments I have seen over the years, Ive never seen a cherry stain as dark as the dye stain finish I posted in post #2. However, It now seems now that the poster wants a color similar to one of your pics, so if he wants to try the lye systems thats up to him, but that can be matched fairly easy with a dye stain. Ive been using dyes since 1996 when I was with AKZO, and I still use them today, so maybe its for that reason as to why I always suggest dye stains. I just think its hard to beat the clarity of a dye stain finish. I also dont see myself suggesting to a customer to use draino, especially for me since my customers are mainly furniture factories who mass produce. LOL.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Ive seen alot of lye treatments done before but no, Ive never done any lye treatments myself. Out of all the lye treatments I have seen over the years, Ive never seen a cherry stain as dark as the dye stain finish I posted in post #2. However, It now seems now that the poster wants a color similar to one of your pics, so if he wants to try the lye systems thats up to him, but that can be matched fairly easy with a dye stain. Ive been using dyes since 1996 when I was with AKZO, and I still use them today, so maybe its for that reason as to why I always suggest dye stains. I just think its hard to beat the clarity of a dye stain finish. I also dont see myself suggesting to a customer to use draino, especially for me since my customers are mainly furniture factories who mass produce. LOL.


Randy
This was my first post. 
"Try my lye treatment on a scrap before you stain. It will allow you to go as dark as you need and won't look like you stained it at all. Unless your matching something already stained".

It was just a suggestion, something to try without much hassle. It's by far the most accurate way to match CHERRY that has aged and NOT STAINED. Because it produces exactly what you have in the older piece. 

So you go ahead and dye stain a NEW piece of cherry and when it ages in color, then what do you have?

I've been using Lye since 1972. I also would if I had to stain, use dye over any other type. Unless I'm matching something that I knew of the product used previously. So as the saying goes. Don't knock it till you try it.

Al


----------



## Getting better (Dec 3, 2009)

Al,
I'm with you on regulations. that cherry looks great darkened with Lye. I will experiment with that. The Potassium Dichromate does an amazing job on Mahogany as well. Did you ever get the link to work?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Randy
> This was my first post.
> "Try my lye treatment on a scrap before you stain. It will allow you to go as dark as you need and won't look like you stained it at all. Unless your matching something already stained".
> 
> ...


 Al, 
All you you said above is fine and true and Im not going to debate with you, but he's not matching an existing cherry that has darkened with age at all. This is what he asked:

Quote:
"2nd question
I need procedure and good product suggestions for staining cherry dark. Yes unfortunately I have to stain the cherry dark. And yes I know it will darken beautifully on its own."

So to me he's saying that he already knows that it will darken on its own so people will not be posting that in his post. He wants to "unfortunately" stain the cherry dark. If he doesn't want to mix his own dyes, I would suggest trying an already made dark walnut or perhaps even a java color to achieve what hes looking for. The pictures you posted using lye are more in the "light to medium" color range for cherry looks.

Since you have been using lye since "1972", I would hope that me and you can agree that he will not get a cherry piece of furniture as dark using lye as I did using a dye stain on the piece of cherry I posted in #2. Just like you, I was suggesting using a dye stain which will get it pretty dark in a hurry. Or maybe we just have a different opinion of what DARK cherry furniture looks like. Im done. Thanks.


----------



## Getting better (Dec 3, 2009)

Al that cherry looks great! Did you ever get the site for PD to work? It works beautifully on Mahogany as well.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tim G said:


> Hello it's Tim the original poster of this thread.first thanks to everyone for the great responses. It's beyond what I thought I'd get. Looks like I have a lot to try regarding darkening cherry. I am more or less a beginner when it comes to finish. I've been doing it for about 5 years in my garage. So that's like 3-4 good projects a year. I have never done it professionally. On the other hand I've been a woodworker for about 38years. So hear is a pic of the project that the questions refer to.
> 
> View attachment 98509
> 
> ...


I can't really recommend a brand wood conditioner and I've heard unhappy remarks about the minwax condtioner. Everyone speaks highly of the Charles Neil Blotch Control and I have some but haven't had a chance to try it. All my career I've been using a 50/50 mixture of boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. Many conditioners say to stain while the conditioner is still wet and I don't care for that. My instincts say if the weather condtions vary the effectiveness of the conditioners would vary. My homemade brew I treat the wood and let it dry completely. 

Spraying dye is a little tricky. It dries so fast and looks like nothing once applied. You have to watch the sprayer and spray a uniform coat and not pay any attention to what the wood looks like. If you start looking at the wood it will look like you need another coat and if you do it then it will come out too dark. 

Regardless of what finish you use just be sure to try it on scrap wood first. 

If you wish to try the lye I would try to find just that. Drano is a mixture of chemicals. Another name for lye is Sodium Hydroxide.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Fallbrook hoby said:


> Al,
> I'm with you on regulations. that cherry looks great darkened with Lye. I will experiment with that. The Potassium Dichromate does an amazing job on Mahogany as well. Did you ever get the link to work?


Not yet but I can google it. So it works on mahogany too. That's the thing about lye. I have only found its use for cherry. 

I've been on this big walnut project and haven't had time for any other projects so I just haven't pursued it yet.

Al


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I can't really recommend a brand wood conditioner and I've heard unhappy remarks about the minwax condtioner. Everyone speaks highly of the Charles Neil Blotch Control and I have some but haven't had a chance to try it. All my career I've been using a 50/50 mixture of boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. Many conditioners say to stain while the conditioner is still wet and I don't care for that. My instincts say if the weather condtions vary the effectiveness of the conditioners would vary. My homemade brew I treat the wood and let it dry completely.
> 
> Spraying dye is a little tricky. It dries so fast and looks like nothing once applied. You have to watch the sprayer and spray a uniform coat and not pay any attention to what the wood looks like. If you start looking at the wood it will look like you need another coat and if you do it then it will come out too dark.
> 
> ...


Steve please.
25+ years of using two little table spoons of Drano in a pint of water applied to cherry wood has never yielded anything but great results. Google it and then get a bottle and actually try it. But be warned, your never going to doubt it if you do.

Al


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> Steve please.
> 25+ years of using two little table spoons of Drano in a pint of water applied to cherry wood has never yielded anything but great results. Google it and then get a bottle and actually try it. But be warned, your never going to doubt it if you do.
> 
> Al


I've tried it, many times, although I used sodium hydroxide and not Drano or Oven Cleaner, and I didn't think it was that great. But what do I know, maybe I missed something. Anyway, if you're really dead set on this path the least you can do is read up on chemical staining a little and do it right. George Franks Adventures in Wood Finishing and Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking Book 2 both have excellent chapters on how to properly do chemical staining along with formulas and which mordants combined with which chemicals produce which colors on different wood species. I have tried a lot of this stuff and only use a couple chemicals these days. For the most part dye is just as good and much safer.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Spraying dye is a little tricky. It dries so fast and looks like nothing once applied. You have to watch the sprayer and spray a uniform coat and not pay any attention to what the wood looks like. If you start looking at the wood it will look like you need another coat and if you do it then it will come out too dark.


For most people I would suggest using a conditioner first before using a dye stain on blotchy prone woods. You can also use a washcoat and sand with 240 grit then spray the dye stain. You can always pre-wipe with alcohol to get an indication of how severe the blotching could be on your work. 

Ive always had good success using dyes on cherry, maple, and birch with a 60/40 combination of acetone/thinner. If the piece has a fancy-face veneer, I use a 60/40 mix of ethanol/acetone to keep it wet because if you don't there is a good possibility of striping the piece, especially if your spraying a long, wide piece. When I formulate systems for furniture factories most of the time I use a dye system containing up to 5% dye, 20% PM Reducer, 75% Acetone, and retard with up to 5% of either Propylene Glycol or Water if needed. You also always want to spray with low fluid pressure and just enough air to atomize the fan pattern, "most" of the time around 40 pounds of air at the tip.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rick Mosher said:


> I've tried it, many times, although I used sodium hydroxide and not Drano or Oven Cleaner, and I didn't think it was that great. But what do I know, maybe I missed something. Anyway, if you're really dead set on this path the least you can do is read up on chemical staining a little and do it right. George Franks Adventures in Wood Finishing and Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking Book 2 both have excellent chapters on how to properly do chemical staining along with formulas and which mordants combined with which chemicals produce which colors on different wood species. I have tried a lot of this stuff and only use a couple chemicals these days. For the most part dye is just as good and much safer.


I only use oven cleaner on saw blades. Didn't advise it here.

Al


----------

