# lacquer on cabinets



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

this is a perfect example why i never use lacquer on cabinets. this was done by a company in business for 25 yrs. these were done 2 yrs ago, and now im re-painting them.

never seen lacquer last the test of time.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Lacquer used to be my mainstay finish both in clear and colors. I quit using it in the late 80's due to health reasons. I found that surface preparation, choice of lacquer, and application technique is key to a finish that will last a long time.

Since it's so easy to use, finishers who aren't proficient can do an injustice. Your pictures look like the problem areas are in crevices of moulding or near joints. Heavily handled areas are another area. Trace glue or residue from sanding or cleaning could have been the culprit for contamination and lack of adhesion.

Proper sanding and sealing, and a properly applied topcoat regimen should provide one of the best finishes. It was a choice finish for production and custom furniture for many decades. With new developments in finishes there are comparable finishes that provide the same durability (some are better).












 







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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> ...........Proper sanding and sealing, and a properly applied topcoat regimen should provide one of the best finishes. It was a choice finish for production and custom furniture for many decades. With new developments in finishes there are comparable finishes that provide the same durability (some are better)...........


+1 for C-man

Plain ole nitrocellulose lacquer that has been used successfully for nearly a century is no longer recommended for furniture and cabinets. It has been replaced by the newer pre-cat and post cat lacquers as well as conversion varnishes in everyday stuff. Going one step further gets you to the new 2K Urethanes and even further up the chain is polyesters and epoxies. 
Anyway, back to the laquers.....It appears the applicator that did your cabinets didn't quite clean and prep the surface as he should. I spray colored pre-cat lacquers over existing finishes of all kinds on a regular basis.


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

lacquer is to hard and to thin for any wood or moisture. when the wood moves, and it will, lacquer will crack. thats just me. as you can tell i dont like lacquer, and have done a lot of it. the only thing i can see why people like it, is it's easy application tendencies. 
now i dont have a lot of issues with conversion varnishes, or 2k urethanes, they are not as egg shell brittle like lacquers. and epoxies should be mentioned in the same sentance with lacquer. there is no comparison. 

to each there own.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I don't see any primer on there. And if there is that was the problem area. You need good prep, you need to spray within 24 hours of sanding. I have many lacquer jobs that are still going strong. One of the problems with lacquer is that it is hard, it can chip if a corner is struck. But, if you break your corners properly (hard) then you don't have to worry about that anymore.

The modern lacquers (and better) have special application procedures that need to be followed. If you just spray willy nilly then you are going to have failure. If you follow the rules and keep your thicknesses within tolerance then you will have a coating that will look good for 15 years with little maintenance.


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

"One of the problems with lacquer is that it is hard, it can chip if a corner is struck."

just to fragile for me. i like finishes that handle everyday use.

dont get me wrong, i use the lacquer family for metal's, its just my last choice for wood.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Lacquer is the only finish that I have ever used. However, I have never used a "colored" lacquer such as the white in the original post. I do not see just where adding color should make a difference.

I am just a hobbyist so do not have the experience of you commercial people. I do have pieces of furniture that I made over 25 years ago and finished in lacquer that still look as good as they did when new. 

I am getting ready to use white lacquer in a soon build of 2 desks for my granddaughters.

George


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Moisture,dust,improper,as in NO...prep can pretty much doom any finish.Just sayin,BW


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

jack warner said:


> "One of the problems with lacquer is that it is hard, it can chip if a corner is struck."
> 
> just to fragile for me. i like finishes that handle everyday use.
> 
> dont get me wrong, i use the lacquer family for metal's, its just my last choice for wood.


The hardness prevents scratching. When you put on softer coating they don't chip, they scratch. Regular oil based poly is one of the tougher finishes out there, to bad it takes forever to dry. They have a 2 part poly that you spray and it is good stuff but you need a great setup and an air supply to spray it. The old fashion finishes look great, but in a kitchen or bath environment they would fail in weeks.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

GeorgeC said:


> .....I am getting ready to use white lacquer in a soon build of 2 desks for my granddaughters. George


Although pre-cat lacquer does not require a primer, I always use a vinly sealer anyway. Vinyl sealer gives great 'gripping' power and increases the moisture resistance of the pre-cat lacquer. As for spraying colors, it is no diferent than spraying the clear stuff except that it is usually thicker and will require a little bit more thinner.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I find that spraying pigmented lacquers is a whole other ball of wax. When I spray clears I barely have to think about it. When I spray pigmented there is a lot of anxiety because the finish has so much more solids in it. It does not flow out well and you have to push the wet thickness much closer to maximum to get a nice flow. Adding more solvent just increases the chance of solvent pop occurring.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> I find that spraying pigmented lacquers is a whole other ball of wax. When I spray clears I barely have to think about it. When I spray pigmented there is a lot of anxiety because the finish has so much more solids in it. It does not flow out well and you have to push the wet thickness much closer to maximum to get a nice flow. Adding more solvent just increases the chance of solvent pop occurring.


Do you use retarder?












 







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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Played the whole gamut. I use MLC Stealth, tried Resistant and could never get it to work. My normal mix is 15% Reducer, which is their fastest retarder. Before that is their standard thinner and their fast thinner. I have played with the mixtures and this is what works for me. If I put more thinner in it I get bubbles, If I put a slower retarder in it sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Played the whole gamut. I use MLC Stealth, tried Resistant and could never get it to work. My normal mix is 15% Reducer, which is their fastest retarder. Before that is their standard thinner and their fast thinner. I have played with the mixtures and this is what works for me. If I put more thinner in it I get bubbles, If I put a slower retarder in it sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


I've tried the different thinners from fast to slow. I had better luck with using retarder than trying to retard and thin just with thinners. I have high swings in temps and humidity, and had to use retarder most of the time. it seems to just allow better flow.

I use waterbase polyurethane now, and don't have those problems.












 







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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Pigmented water base poly? What brands?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Pigmented water base poly? What brands?


I was referring mostly to clear. But, you can add a universal tint, or acrylic paint. I've used it in Polycrylic and Parks Pro Finisher, both available at HD and Coronado Aqua Plastic Urethane.












 







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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I have absolutely no issues with clears. I can do them in my sleep. My pigmented conversion varnishes are a different creature all together. They are difficult to use and you need to really have things down to a science to make them work all the time. I am still perfecting it. Problem is that I don't do enough pigmented coatings at once to get in the swing of it. Usually a kitchen here or there while the majority of my finished products is stain and clear.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> ..... I had better luck with using retarder than trying to retard and thin just with thinners. ....... it seems to just allow better flow......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1 for C-man.

I also live in a hot, high humididty area - Houston/Galveston Tx. 
When ever I open a can of lacquer I automatically add 8 Oz/gal of Retarder and 8 drops of Fish-eye eliminator. This way, I don't have to remember whether I added to that bucket or not. Thinners don't necessarily retard. It depends on whether it is a hot thinner or a slow thinner. I hot thinner willl actually speed up the drying process which is what you dont want. 
Retarder not only 'retards' to help prevent blush but also helps in flow characteristics.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Tony B said:


> I also live in a hot, high humididty area - Houston/Galveston Tx.
> When ever I open a can of lacquer I automatically add 8 Oz/gal of Retarder and 8 drops of Fish-eye eliminator. This way, I don't have to remember whether I added to that bucket or not.


There's always a debate about the use of fish eye remover, and if it is a contaminator. I'm surprised that you got hooked into using it. I'm in the group that says...once you use it you have to continue to use it. It's true that using it will contaminate the shop. Fish eye remover is basically silicone. This question was asked on Woodweb, and I'm quoting an answer that expresses my thoughts:

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_Yeah, it's very true - take it from someone who has been refinishing for 40+ years. Silicone is something you want to avoid at all costs. Yes, you can use smoothie or SW fisheye additive or many others - but once you contaminate your coating, you also contaminate the gun, your shop (due to overspray), and possibly even other surfaces that you need to spray that would not have needed to have treated finish applied! In the refinishing business, it was common practice to add fisheye remover to all the coatings all the time whether they needed it or not, just to be safe rather than sorry. 

So many people used cleaning products such as Johnson's wax or Pledge that when it came time to refinish, everything was contaminated and the refinisher would contaminate his whole shop with silicone in the process. Once it is in the shop, it is there for good. Try not to use it in your shop at all. Take projects like that to a refinisher instead and keep your shop free of the problem. 

Also keep in mind that the sanding of both the finish and wood surface on contaminated surfaces infect the shop with fine particles of siliconized material that can cause future problems. And these may show up sporadically from time to time also. So be wise and keep it out of your shop altogether. Throwaway guns are not the answer unless you do it outside and away from your shop._
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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

All retarders are thinners, and all thinners are retarders. Mixing different speed thinners only get you different levels of retard.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> There's always a debate about the use of fish eye remover, and if it is a contaminator. I'm surprised that you got hooked into using it. I'm in the group that says...once you use it you have to continue to use it. It's true that using it will contaminate the shop. Fish eye remover is basically silicone. This question was asked on Woodweb, and I'm quoting an answer that expresses my thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


​WOW!!! What an eye opener. It took a while for me to find info on Fish-eye Eliminator. I finally had to resort to an MSDS which is not always what it apperars to be but will give some idea of what is in the stuff. Here are the chemicals: polydimethylsiloxane, m-xylene, ethylbenzene, p-xylene, and toluene. The liquid silicones are in the polydimethylsiloxane. Again, I am not a chemist but I do know that chemical combinations can change properties such as 2 gasses changing into a liquid when heat is the catalyst - think water. Anyway, in my particular case all of the above is a mute point. 
I am a creature of habit, essentially an assasins dream. I buy the fisheye eliminator out of habit without thinking. Why? Just because. 
Anyway, you got me to thinking.......Why do I think I need it? I DON'T !!!!!. I use Vinyl sealer all of the time. If the sealer don't fisheye, there is absolutely no reason at all to put the Fisheye Elim. in the top coats of pre-cat. Even when I spray over existing finishes, if no fisheye in the sealer then there can't be any contaminants on *top* of the sealer. 
Thanks 

Tony B​


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Leo G said:


> All retarders are thinners, and all thinners are retarders. Mixing different speed thinners only get you different levels of retard.


I think this is partially true in principal. I believe that retarder allows the lacquer to flow by retarding or delaying the *flash point* as opposed to thinners just straight line slowing down the process.
In high humidity conditions where blush can be a problem, the addition of too much thinner will actually cause the pre-cat lacquer to fish-eye. I have never read that anywhere, but I can tell that from experience. My automotive finisher buddy said the same thing happens to him. I have never seen this happen to nitrocellulose lacquer so I will assume this is a quirk of pre-cat. Maybe next week I will have time to call a chemist and find out more info.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Tony B said:


> [/CENTER]
> WOW!!! What an eye opener. It took a while for me to find info on Fish-eye Eliminator. I finally had to resort to an MSDS which is not always what it apperars to be but will give some idea of what is in the stuff. Here are the chemicals: polydimethylsiloxane, m-xylene, ethylbenzene, p-xylene, and toluene. The liquid silicones are in the polydimethylsiloxane. Again, I am not a chemist but I do know that chemical combinations can change properties such as 2 gasses changing into a liquid when heat is the catalyst - think water. Anyway, in my particular case all of the above is a mute point.
> I am a creature of habit, essentially an assasins dream. I buy the fisheye eliminator out of habit without thinking. Why? Just because.
> Anyway, you got me to thinking.......Why do I think I need it? I DON'T !!!!!. I use Vinyl sealer all of the time. If the sealer don't fisheye, there is absolutely no reason at all to put the Fisheye Elim. in the top coats of pre-cat. Even when I spray over existing finishes, if no fisheye in the sealer then there can't be any contaminants on *top* of the sealer.
> ...



You have probably contaminated your area with silicone that you could not eliminate it if you wanted to. One of the bad things about fisheye eliminator is that it mostly is silicone, once introduced into your spray area, your guns and anything else that it touches, you're committed.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*I hope you guys are wrong*

for my sake. I will know soon enough. I have a lot of stuff to be sprayed this coming week, both clear and colored. If for nothing else but to increase my knowledge base, I am not going to take any special precautions. I will clean my guns and work area as usual. The only diff will be that I wont add Fisheye Eliminator. 
I will keep you posted.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I'd like to hear the results. I have a bottle of fisheye eliminator that I never used because I was afraid if I used it that would be the end of not using it.

Good luck.


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