# Built-In Base Cabinets With Doors But No Bottom Rail?



## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

I have built in cabinets which include a floor cabinet with two doors. There's no bottom rail on the cabinet. Originally it had some trim molding nailed to the floor: what looks like a threshold with an additional strip on top used a door stop (see pic).

When new flooring was placed, the flooring guy must have knocked the cabinet good and hard with his sanding machine because afterwards the cabinet was seriously out of square and the doors no longer had even gaps. (New flooring was not placed inside the cabinet but around it).

To fix this problem I made a new face frame. Two flatware drawers are at the top of the cabinet (I replaced the old beat out ones with new ones) and the bottom has the two original doors. At that time I also modified the cabinet by making it deeper - extending the case sides out by a few inches to accommodate the footprint of a larger microwave and also putting in a new countertop. 

At the time of the floor installation I had the flooring guy cut a strip of new threshold molding and finish with the same floor finish, so I could replace the really ratty looking threshold (see pic). I was planning on using it along with maybe a strip of 1/2" square section molding nailed to the top as a door stop, and cutting the corners to 45 degrees as a neater transition where the molding meets the stiles.

My question is what treatment options are available for cabinets of this nature - without lower rails - where they meet the floor?
Typically how much clearance is advisable between the floor and the bottom of the doors?

Thanks.

Pics show:
The doors resting on my new threshold plate
Doors resting directly on the floor
The old 'threshold' molding and a piece of new threshold.
Profile of the old molding


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

personally i would cut the doors shorter, so there is a gap of at least 1/4" or so. greater if you ever intend to place a rug in fron of the cabinet. i wouldn't add anything else. jmho


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## Parrdan (Nov 30, 2020)

I agree with Timpa


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

So no threshold molding?
I'm not quite sure but I think the gap is already more than 1/4"with the present door height and no bottom molding.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

you didn't mention where is the base of the cabinet with respect to the floor? pic?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

^
It's in most of the pics ... the cabinet stiles rest on and are nailed to the floor, they're painted white. 
Here's another pic:


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

let me re-phrase that - is there a "bottom" to the cabinet interior, or is that the floor?


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

The interior of the cabinet is simply the old (original) flooring from the early 20th century. The old and new flooring is at the same level.

Now, it is possible that at some time in the future I may decide to convert the cabinet from doors into 2 or 3 wide drawers (at present there's one shelf) with Blumotion Tandem slides. But no immediate plans for that. I want to get the doors finished and installed so need to figure out how to implement the bottom.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

The doors may have been added after the original construction. The doors and whole setup look historical to me and lacking a bottom rail is as common as having one. Many original cabinets of that era were built in place and often feature unusual quirks of design - lack of plumbness, unusual construction methods, inconsistent ornamentation, etc. If you have an arts&crafts era house (likely from what I can tell) they featured all sort of interesting space saving features - including that slot for a pull-out cutting board that I see right under your counter. That set up might have featured some flour bins on wheels that could be easily rolled out from under that cabinet if the flooring is continuous.

I initially thought you were talking about your sink cabinet, so I was going to share that many such cabinets never had full length doors, instead using decorative half doors, curtains, or full doors with vent grills. The notion was that enclosing plumbing promoted molds and other nasties to take root in your kitchen, so many early sink cabinets (if there even was a cabinet) were open underneath.

I love doing kitchen archaeology (maybe because I used to be an archaeologist) so peeling back the layers and understanding what is original, what was added, and in what order is a lot of fun for me.

If you're looking to restore the kitchen to something like original, or if you're creating something new using the old bones, I highly recommend that you check out the book "Bungalow Kitchens." It is one of my best reference books.



Amazon.com



Me personally, I would just remove a little bit off the bottom edge of those doors so that they swing free and then use the cabinet as it was originally designed. You have the big advantage that without a threshold or toe kick, you can easily roll anything into or out of that cabinet. That's ideal for small carts, stools, rolling bins of pet food, etc.

I'm considering omitting the bottom of my next kitchen cabinet as we keep our trash bin under there and I'm a bit tired of picking it up and pulling it out every time I need to scrape a plate into the trash.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

A thoughtful and appreciated post RepairmanJack. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge!

It's been rare in my experience to have someone look and think through a historic lens to illuminate the design, function, and aesthetics of historic kitchens rather than approach them through the more common lens of current practices. 

If you're interested, here's my initial post on the kitchen restoration/renovation which shows the design and the condition it was in when this all began:

Built-In Kitchen Cabinet Stripping & Restoration ...

Thanks for the book recommendation, I ordered a copy. Wish had had more info of this sort when starting out. Btw, one area I've hit a dead end is finding replacement hinges for the cabinet doors. These have steel butt hinges ... I'd like to replace with brass but I cannot find hinges of _any _finish in the exact dimensions of the originals. If you have any pointers - or know of anyone who might be of assistance - I can direct you to a post with the hinge dimensions and details. Although the lions share of the kitchen work has been done, this hardware snafu is mission critical and is preventing the cabinet doors from being completed and replaced : (

Sink
The sink originally had metal doors with knife hinges but the doors had some damage - dented and out of alignment - the sink may have been knocked hard at some point as there was a little distortion to the cabinet. Not possessing requisite sheet metal skills I cut off the hinges and made new doors. I had to fabricate somewhat elaborate stiles in wood to mate with the sink's 'stiles' to provide a strong mount for the hinges (Blum). In my experience the sink cabinet is one that gets used hastily - sometimes roughly - to access cleaning supplies and to aid in dishwashing duties so I wanted the door mount to be bomber. It turned out well. I prefer the original look of the solid doors but this was part of a larger kitchen restoration entailing a lot of work and I needed to move things along.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Ah! I saw your old post (a few weeks ago) and saved copies of the pictures you posted as references for some of my own kitchen work. My previous house featured all metal cabinets - in avocado green, but were shoehorned into a 1927 brick bungalow in the early 1960s. I found dates from 1960-1966 throughout the house left by a diligent predecessor. I also found a folding rule and a hammer hidden behind a panel. A gift from the past.

It looked like this when we moved in in May 2000.









and looked like this when we moved out 17 years later.




  








My completed kitchen - custom top and bottom cabinets.




__
RepairmanJack


__
Sep 22, 2018








I built all of those cabinets from scratch, uppers from plywood, and lowers as true frame and panel construction. When I moved in, I had almost no tools, but a strong desire to set things right in that house. I found a walk-in pantry behind the tile on the opposite wall, and a small pantry under that window on the right. I learned everything I now know about making cabinets and reproduction widows from my projects to restore this house. built.

I agree it's rare to find anyone interested in saving/restoring/enhancing what was originally there. For me, I think it was my background in archaeology and historic preservation, along with my love of the arts & crafts era, and a desire to do for myself that drove my own journey. Also, I could not find/afford people to do it for me... :^)

I have a small library of reference books and Powell and Svendeson's book are some of the best. They did one on Bathrooms too. I also have a complete run of American Bungalow Magazine - Issue 1-99. I started with issue 23 and those are full of inspirational photos of nice restorations and adaptations. The one warning I should have give you about Bungalow Kitchens (and all of her books) is that Powell loves (loved) bad puns. The chapters are full of them.

Another book you might consider is this one:








The Old House Journal Compendium: Clem Labine, Carolyn Flaherty: 9780879510800: Amazon.com: Books


The Old House Journal Compendium [Clem Labine, Carolyn Flaherty] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Old House Journal Compendium



www.amazon.com





That book is buried treasure. My only real complaint is that it barely covers the Arts&Crafts era.


I also know some good sources of hardware that I'm happy to share. I especially recommend the last one.

VanDyke's Restorers. They are a bit pricey, but have a good selection for all aspects of furniture and woodworking. Home Restoration & Improvement Store | Van ****'s
House of Antique Hardware - nice selection of things like transom operators and long-throw parliament hinges for casement windows. Antique Hardware | Vintage Restoration Hardware | House of Antique Hardware
Look In the Attic - best prices for Jadite glass knobs that I've found. Antique Hardware | Vintage Restoration Hardware | LookInTheAttic
Signature Hardware - less useful, but they have some interesting and unique stuff - including farmhouse sinks and push plates. Bathroom, Kitchen, Home Decor, Lighting & More
Vintage Hardware - never ordered from them and they are bit more victorian - still some nice stuff Vintage Hardware & Lighting - Home of Antique Hardware and Historic Lights
Historic Houseparts - lots of vintage and actual antique stuff - Category
Hardware Source - not necessarily vintage or antique, but somewhat exhaustive Hinges and Hardware Suppliers | HardwareSource
Roseland Icebox Company - IceBox hardware if you need it. Roseland Icebox Company - Authentic Electric Wooden Refrigerators
Horton Brasses - that link is to bin pulls, but they have lots of stuff. Brass Bin Pulls | Antique Kitchen Cabinet Hardware
National Hardware - this is the company that supplies most hardware stores, but you can see what antique-style stuff they make and sell, even if your local hardware store doesn't have it in stock. National Hardware
Whitechapel Ltd. - don't know much about them, but a wide selection. Browse Hardware
Rockler - surprisingly they have a good selection of hardware Woodworking Tools, Hardware, DIY Project Supplies & Plans - Rockler
Lee Valley - better for woodworking hand tools, they do sell a selection of hardware. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/hardware
Craftsman Home Connection - I've never ordered from them, but they might have what you need, or don;t know you need just yet. Craftsman decor, modern craftsman decor, craftsman style

...and my _*absolute favorite*_ is Killian's Hardware in Pennsylvania. Very primitive website, but the selection and options are amazing. I've dropped a lot of money with them over the years. The hardware for my swinging kitchen door came from them as did all of my storm window hangers, zinc weatherstripping, and most of my window hardware. Kilian Hardware

I omitted Rejuvenation Lighting as they mostly sell to the non-restoring customers these days. They used to have an amazing (if not expensive) selection of reproduction switches, hinges, hangers, pulls, and mostly light fixtures. Since Williams-Sonoma bought them and pottery barn, it's pretty boring and mostly mid-century lighting.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Related to @RepairmanJack's post above, I shared some our kitchen design ideas in a recent thread. There is not much about woodworking in the thread, just kitchen design and function ideas:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/thr...deas-to-share-caution-not-woodworking.225426/


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

RepairmanJack said:


> Ah! I saw your old post (a few weeks ago) and saved copies of the pictures you posted as references for some of my own kitchen work. My previous house featured all metal cabinets - in avocado green, but were shoehorned into a 1927 brick bungalow in the early 1960s. I found dates from 1960-1966 throughout the house left by a diligent predecessor. I also found a folding rule and a hammer hidden behind a panel. A gift from the past.
> 
> I have a small library of reference books and Powell and Svendeson's book are some of the best. They did one on Bathrooms too. I also have a complete run of American Bungalow Magazine - Issue 1-99. I started with issue 23 and those are full of inspirational photos of nice restorations and adaptations. The one warning I should have give you about Bungalow Kitchens (and all of her books) is that Powell loves (loved) bad puns. The chapters are full of them.
> 
> ...


RepairmanJack,
My apologies for the delay in responding as I've had an internet forum hiatus, but I've read your post through several times and have integrated a lot of your recommendations ... thank you for yet another thoughtful post chock full of information!

Your kitchen job looks stunning and unique: congratulations! A fascinating result (also an interesting range, your interest in incorporating the past is evident).

As per your suggestion I've obtained inexpensive copies of _Bungalow Kitchens_ and also _Old House Journal Compendium_. Your assessment is spot on.


















I also got a copy of_ Kitchen Think_ by Nancy R. Hiller put out not long ago by Lost Art Press (Chris Schwarz's publishing company) which I've only had time to lightly peruse thus far but it's a great and exciting resource. It isn't era or style specific but covers a lot of valuable info centered around designing, building, and or renovating kitchens. A good chunk of it deals with aspects of period kitchens and styles and the entire book is geared towards the woodworker so while it covers layout, design, and styling it also covers fabrication. For example she goes into details such as period hardware location (hinges, knobs, etc.) "door hardware was commonly installed approximately halfway or two-thirds to three-quarters of the way up on base cabinet doors and similarly spaced in the opposite direction for upper doors. They were not usually located in the upper or lower corners as is typical of cabinets today." In her preface the first book she references is "Bungalow Kitchens," and she also references the following:
-_Kitchen Classics_ by Patricia Poore (editor in chief of Old House Journal)
-_The Art of Kitchen Design_ and _Kitchen Culture _by Johnny Grey.
-_Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets_ by Jim Tolpin for technical building guidance.


Regarding hardware sources I've exhausted myself trying to locate similarly sized hinges in all the necessary dimensions (including vendors on your long list). It's just not out there. My hinges have the manufacturer's name stamped on them - McKINNEY - and I've looked in their catalogue (didn't bother contacting them) which is mostly modern hardware. Using new differently dimensioned hinges would likely require a_ tremendous_ amount of additional work.

I realized that locating even a single dimensionally similar hinge - not to mention one in a brass finish - would be like finding a needle in a haystack, it was looking like the only way forward was to have the steel hinges (often with some rust) brass plated to match the rest of the hardware. But brass plating quotes were prohibitively expensive. The other issue is they weren't sure if the plating would last 10 years in a kitchen without the underlying steel starting to rust. As I'm going with an unlacquered polished brass finish that will naturally patina over time, one plater suggested that I just paint the hinges with a rattle can with primer and a metallic spray paint, which is what I think I'm going to do after doing some test samples. Maybe I can find someone to sand blast them first.

Other than the hinge painting (which I'll delay for the future) I'm entering the home stretch on the cabinet doors which is a relief after all the repairs, rebuilding, tuning, and skill acquisition to bring them to their current state. I think several kitchen's worth of cabinetry could have been built with the effort to turn these pigs' ears into silk purses ... and it's still not yet finished.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Related to @RepairmanJack's post above, I shared some our kitchen design ideas in a recent thread. There is not much about woodworking in the thread, just kitchen design and function ideas:
> https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/thr...deas-to-share-caution-not-woodworking.225426/


Tool Agnostic, thanks for sharing that. Great job! It's evident a lot of thought went into the design and so many great details (I love the broom closet pass through). The doorway width/appliance accommodation is so important!


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Lovegasoline said:


> Regarding hardware sources I've exhausted myself trying to locate similarly sized hinges in all the necessary dimensions (including vendors on your long list). It's just not out there. My hinges have the manufacturer's name stamped on them - McKINNEY - and I've looked in their catalogue (didn't bother contacting them) which is mostly modern hardware. Using new differently dimensioned hinges would likely require a_ tremendous_ amount of additional work.
> 
> I realized that locating even a single dimensionally similar hinge - not to mention one in a brass finish - would be like finding a needle in a haystack, it was looking like the only way forward was to have the steel hinges (often with some rust) brass plated to match the rest of the hardware. But brass plating quotes were prohibitively expensive. The other issue is they weren't sure if the plating would last 10 years in a kitchen without the underlying steel starting to rust. As I'm going with an unlacquered polished brass finish that will naturally patina over time, one plater suggested that I just paint the hinges with a rattle can with primer and a metallic spray paint, which is what I think I'm going to do after doing some test samples. Maybe I can find someone to sand blast them first.


Could you share a picture and details on the hinges you are trying to source? Also, how many do you need? I've been lucky-enough to come upon boxes of salvage hinges at my local "habitat for humanity restore" sometimes antique shops and flea markets too. If you have some basic metal-working tools, you might also be able to make your own reproductions, or maybe cut-down similar hinges that are a bit too large. I taught myself to make reproduction casement and double-hung windows because I couldn't source salvaged windows and because the quoted prices for reproductions started at $400 a window. Both of the replacement windows in my kitchen photo started life as taller windows, so I took them apart, shortened the stiles and muntins and re-assembled each. Later, I just built new ones from scratch. 

Restoring metal is maybe a little far-afield on a woodworker's forum, but there are some clever solutions out there. You can remove rust using electrolosis - you should research it yourself, but basically you set up a tub with some water and electrolytes in it and then use a bit of waste iron and the items you are working to save, you attach low-voltage electric leads to your sacrificial iron and the metal you are looking at cleaning, you put them in the bath and let the electricity and chemical reaction do the work for you - its all ions jumping to anions, or some such. Sorry, chemistry was over 30 years ago so I don't recall the proper vocabulary... I know folk use such a technique to restore motorcycle gas tanks and other metal goods. 

You can use nearly the same process to metal-plate the hinges yourself. "Jake VonSlatt" at the Steampunk Workshop has some good descriptions. He'll show up quickly on a web search.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

RepairmanJack, Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow to post up hinge details and follow up to your post...


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Cool. One more question, is that historical plate you shared from the book you linked, or another source? It looks a lot a scan from my reprint of Radford's Architctural Details, but I don't think that's in my copy. 









Architectural Details and Measured Drawings of Houses of the Twenties (Dover Architecture): Radford, William A.: 9780486421568: Amazon.com: Books


Architectural Details and Measured Drawings of Houses of the Twenties (Dover Architecture) [Radford, William A.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Architectural Details and Measured Drawings of Houses of the Twenties (Dover Architecture)



www.amazon.com





Also, thanks for the recommendation on the "traditional cabinetry" book. I picked up a cheap copy for my collection.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

RepairmanJack said:


> Cool. One more question, is that historical plate you shared from the book you linked, or another source? It looks a lot a scan from my reprint of Radford's Architctural Details, but I don't think that's in my copy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The plate is in the _Kitchen Think_ book, but I actually downloaded it from a post on Chris Schwarz's Lost Art Press blog entitled "Cabinet Details to Note when Designing a Period-Style Kitchen." Lost Art Press is the books publisher. It's likely that you're already familiar with Schwarz's woodworking but if by some chance you're not he's been instrumental in the hand tool renaissance in recent decades, produces and sells tools, is a furniture maker specializing in chairs and for decades has been a prominent voice and author on tool chests and especially the history, philosophy, and design of workbenches - widely known for popularizing the 1700's Roubo workbench - among other talents (his culminating book on workbench design is _The Anarchist's Workbench_, a fascinating book which he sells in hardcover but also offers free as a download ... poke around the Lost Art Press site and you'll find it).









Cabinet Details to Note when Designing a Period-Style Kitchen


Proper proportions. This Shaker classic is one of the best examples of how frame components can influence the character of a cabinet. While the board between the doors does not exactly qualify as a…




blog.lostartpress.com





One interesting idea I recently saw in the book is how to install modern Blum Tandem runners on a traditional face frame cabinet with full overlay drawers and maintaining the rails between drawers for correct period look while maximizing drawer height and volume for practicality ... the use of a faux rail detail integrated to the bottom of the drawer front.

If you want to read a little more Lost Art Press offers a free download excerpt from the Kitchen Think book. [Note on p.320 of the excerpt there's a stove that looks like it might be from the same manufacturer as the one in your kitchen?]:


https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/KT_Free_Excerpt.pdf


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

+1 on The Anarchist's Workbench. I downloaded and read the free version, thinking ahead for when I have sufficient free space in my garage for a decent workbench. Blog with a photo and comments:
https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/07/07/updated-anarchists-workbench-pdf/

Here is the current, latest version of the PDF, mentioned in the blog post above. Pay attention to the blog above, as the book linked here may be updated in the future:
https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB_Consumer_June-2020_v5.pdf


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Lovegasoline said:


> Cabinet Details to Note when Designing a Period-Style Kitchen
> 
> 
> Proper proportions. This Shaker classic is one of the best examples of how frame components can influence the character of a cabinet. While the board between the doors does not exactly qualify as a…
> ...


The false face frame rail is a somewhat common item on upper end kitchens when trying to integrate appliances or other items into the traditional looking kitchen. 

This is a upper dishwasher panel (face frame is upside down here) for a double drawer dishwasher.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, links and recommendations. I will definitely check it out. I've striven hard to learn to build real period cabinets, the base cabinets at the old house were my best-ever and I only used plywood for the bottom of drawers and the base cabinets. I've been working from the example of some period parts that I salvaged from a neighbor's renovation and have modeled most of my work on those examples.

About workbenches, there's a good episode of Roy Underhill's The Woodwright Shop that focuses on historical workbenches, including ones from ancient Rome and the European gothic period. Myself, I try and get by with a modified version of the relatively famous design from Woodsmith Magazine, although the very high lumber prices stalled my work after I built the base. I tend to glue up a solid slab out of trimmed Fir 2x4s, but that got prohibitively expensive, so my main workbench is incomplete. I did modify and rebuild an HFT workbench into a short work bench with a stack of 4 drawers in a plywood box with a shelf on top. That's actually my daughter's workbench, but it also serves as my table saw outfeed surface.

My gas range is a "Universal" manufactured by Cribben and Sexton's Universal Gas Stove Company (originally of St. Louis, MO). It dates to the early-mid1950s but works well in a period kitchen. With a generic name like "Universal" it took me quite a while to figure out who actually manufactured it. The one in the document you shared looks like either a Wedgewood or a Merrit and O'Keefe. I'd love to own either, but they are quite rare here in the mid-continent.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Jar944_2 said:


> The false face frame rail is a somewhat common item on upper end kitchens when trying to integrate appliances or other items into the traditional looking kitchen.
> 
> This is a upper dishwasher panel (face frame is upside down here) for a double drawer dishwasher.


I like that most panel DW's these days can be completely covered. In my circa 2017 completed kitchen photo above, the whole block to the right of the sink is a dishwasher with a single panel. The only frustration is that period cabinets don't have toe kicks, but the DW requires a standard toe kick for the door to swing open.

It was relatively easy to disguise because of the location between the sink and the window. In my new kitchen, it's going to be next to the refrigerator on a short return so it won't be obvious.


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 27, 2009)

RepairmanJack said:


> I like that most panel DW's these days can be completely covered. In my circa 2017 completed kitchen photo above, the whole block to the right of the sink is a dishwasher with a single panel. The only frustration is that period cabinets don't have toe kicks, but the DW requires a standard toe kick for the door to swing open.


RepairmanJack, a quick note:
If you visit the 1st clickable link in post #18, and go to bullet point #9 in that blog post there's a brief mention of toe kicks accompanied by a commercial illustration from the _1927 Universal millwork Catalog _offering flush toe kicks on cabinets. IIRC that was the year your home was built and although your kitchen - or others like it - may not have featured toe kicks, apparently they were offered and in circulation at the time so would seem to qualify as 'period correct', or at least according to that source. I'm a n00b at the history ... just passing on stuff I've recently stumbled upon.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm coming in to this "cold" but I would have recommended, new doors or shortening the originals and putting in a toe kick as you seem to have done here:










There's a good reason that toe kicks are used and that is, it allows the person to stand closer to the sink, preventing back strain and pain, now and especially for more elderly folks. By all means build them in or make the alterations that are necessary to accommodate them!


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

It's a design choice. Most of the sources I know of point out that generally nobody notices if you have a toe kick. The compromise solution is actually closer to being historical accurate as early kitchen cabinets were originally just pieces of purpose-specific kitchen furniture with feet and a toe-kick created by the legs of the cabinets. Contemporary interpretations actually blend the two and a couple nice examples can be found in the sample document linked by Lovesgasoline.

Really the whole idea of dedicated built-in cabinets is kind of a new idea. Early kitchens really didn't have cabinets as we know them. There were Hoosier Cabinets, and later built-ins but that's mostly post-1900 leading into the Sanitary Movement - which gave us crisp, clean, white kitchens and bathrooms.


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