# Dust control on vintage table saw



## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

I've got a 54 year old table saw from Montgomery Wards that I picked up at an estate sale for cheap. 
The saw works great, cuts great, but it throws dust everywhere.
Originally the back of the base and cabinet were wide open, I cut a metal plate and closed of the back of the upper cabinet, and made a wood bottom and wood door to close in the bottom of the cabinet. I didn't seal it up tight though in fear of it overheating the motor. While the bottom box catches about half the sawdust, the saw spews dust everywhere. Dust blows out of the slot where the raise and lower knob sits, it blows out around the top edges of the table, and it blows out of every seem in the cabinet. Yesterday I ripped a 2x4 into 3/8" strips, I had 2" of dust in the box, and an inch on the floor all around the saw. 

I added a 2" fitting on the bottom rear of the cabinet for a shop vac, but it makes little difference. I even tried making a door with a 4" port for my dust collection system but it does little to stop the dust from blowing out all over the place. I've got an older Craftsman 10" saw from the 50's on an open stand with only a cardboard box at the bottom and it don't make anywhere near the dust this one makes. It literally covers a 12x12ft area in sawdust every time I use it.

The saw has a built in motor, its belt driven but the belt is short. The motor has fan for cooling that draws air in through a box on the left side and into the motor, the air exits the motor downward. I would have thought that this airflow would have helped direct the majority of the air down into the collection box but it seems to almost pressurize the cabinet expelling dust in all directions. I also notice that with the ripping blade on the saw, I get a rooster tail of sawdust upward off the blade, the dust and chips are moving fast enough that they bounce off the 7ft ceiling. I don't get that with the general purpose blade. 

I don't want to seal the box up to the point it won't ventilate, and I don't want the motor box to be the only opening either.

The rear of the top box is sealed, with less than 1/8" at the top being open. The sides and front of the table have a 2" gap around the upper edges due to the cast webbing on the underside of the table. The door I made is held shut by weight, it doesn't seem to 'blow' open but it does leak a bit. With the saw running, I can see flying dust being sucked up into the motor vent area which I suppose means its getting drawn through the motor as well. 

I'm thinking that maybe I need to put the vacuum port directly behind the motor fan output but I'm also afraid that will draw even more dust up into the motor. 
(The motor protrudes out the right side of the cabinet, its covered by an open bottom box made of steel). 

I'm getting the impression these weren't meant to be used indoors but I also can't imagine it being very portable either. To get it into the basement, I had to completely disassemble the saw and move it in pieces with a hand truck. Its easily double the weight of my 10" Craftsman which I believe was made in 1956. 

I don't expect this to be dustless in operation but I need to stop it from creating a room filling dust cloud every time I run the saw.


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## Mad (Dec 9, 2017)

What if you flip the pyramid of space under the saw upside down, turning that enclosed pyramid into a sawdust hopper?























Then, at the bottom of the hopper, attach your shop vac or dust collector port?






















An elbow at the bottom of the hopper makes the transition to the dust collection hose.


This Craftsman table saw is about 50 years old. I used the Rockler dust collection scoop for the hopper, pipe insulation for the perimeter seal, and plywood for the base to support the hopper. My thinking was to let gravity assist in the evacuation of the saw dust.












.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Those open base, open back saw are the worst ......*

A contractor type saw whether the motor is built in or hanging off the back are THE most difficult to contain the dust on. You will find that the largewr the space you are trying to "evacuate" the more difficult it is..... just not enough air volume is being extracted. A 10 HP blower may work, I donno? It would dim the lights in the whole neighborhood, so probably not a good solution. :sad2:

I made a blade shroud for my older 12" Powermatic table saw, with the same issue having a large open cabinet and 4" dust port at the very bottom.... useless! So, I fabricated and solder a sheet metal shroud around the blade to minimize the and concentrate the arear where the dust is being evacuated from. It works about 100X better than before. Sorry, no pictures but each saw would be different if you use that idea. My inspiration came from my new at the time, Bosch 4100 job site saw which has a great blade shroud and a shop vac port in the rear of the cabinet. :surprise2:
You may find that the blower on the built in motor will keep the dust in suspension long enough for a full size dust collector OR a good shop vac to evacuate the cabinet IF you seal it off all around and just draw air from the gap under the table and through the openings for the tilt and blade elevation controls. I use magnetic sign material to cover my openings because I am evacuation yhe dust off the bottom of my triple Craftsman table saws, Sawzilla as it's known by some folks here:









Another idea I have toyed with over the years is an over arm dust collector separately powered by a shop vac to collect the dust thrown off by the spinning blade. It's a cheap 2" PVC assembly, just slid together with no glue, makes it very adaptable or removable for when it's in the way. It's still a work in progress. My saws have those tall splitter panels that are pretty much "permanent" because they are such a pain to align if I remove them, so I avoid that if at all possible:



















You can see the 4" PVC pipe under the saws with Y connectors and blast gates under each saw, all powered by a Jet 1100 1.5 HP dust collect on the right side in the photo above. The far left end has a pipe cap that can be removed for a floor sweep attachment if needed. Another concept is to use a zero clearance throat plate, not only for chip free cuts and safety concerns, but to seal off the opening around the blade. That idea is still open for debate, but I can't it give up regardless of even IF it's better for dust collection.


:vs_cool:


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

I used to work in a pallet shop years ago when I was just out of high school, they had an old Dewalt cabinet saw with a 12" or larger blade on it. The saw had an opening on the back to get in and clean out the saw dust. I used it often and it made very little dust other than what accumulated inside and around the back of the saw. It never threw dust into the air. Every week it was my job to go around and clean up the sawdust. I'd shovel out several barrels of sawdust and sweep up the area a bit. It was mostly used to cut plywood or to rip down wood slabs from the sawmill. 

My Craftsman saw don't make the mess that this one does, it makes dust, but it don't fill the room or cover the floor. The cardboard bin below the saw catches 90% of the saw dust and the rest is never much more than a quick sweep to clean up the arear. I can live with that. But this Power Kraft saw makes a huge mess, the air is full of dust for a long time after I shut it down, it puts a layer of dust on everything in the basement. I tried stuffing foam up around the edges of the table where it meets the cabinet today, and I taped the seams on the lower box. The saw makes so much pressure in the cabinet from that fan it was forcing the door open on the lower box. I put a bungee cord on the door and gave it a try and it made the saw throw more dust up through the blade slot. Eventually it blew out the foam I put in on the one side. The motor fan moves a huge amount of air, it moves more air than my 5hp sears shop vac does out of the outlet port. 
I don't like the idea that its now acting like a vacuum and sucking air and dust back into the cabinet, though the motor.

I could put a pan a the bottom of the upper cabinet with a hose to the dust collection unit but I'm concerned that it'll give the motor fan more opportunity to suck up more dust from below. The dust goes toward the back of the motor rather than to the vacuum or the dust collector tube even if I put the tube right near the blade or motor. 

It seems like the more I seal up the cabinet, the more the motor fan becomes the least point of resistance for dust flow. As it is now, with foam at the top of the panel sides, and the door closed, I get a lot of air pressure out of the blade slot. If I put a sheet of cardboard against the motor cover bottom opening, it will hold it there as long as the motor is running, its actually drawing a vacuum there. 
The motor fan looks a lot like the motor configuration on a vacuum cleaner. The motor is marked 7200 RPM too, so the higher RPM don't help much either. 
(When the motor is running unloaded at full speed, the thing sounds pretty scary, it sound like its running away). 
It makes for a great cut finish but I have to watch which blades I use on it. I find many blades marked with only a 5500 or less RPM rating. It eats through rip cuts like nothing I've ever seen before though. 

I'm wondering now if I actually get less dust by leaving everything open, it stops the dust from blowing up through the top and it stops most of the dust from coming out the front hand wheel slot. 
Without any enclosure though, it blows dust out the back of the upper cabinet about 12ft across the room. 
Maybe I need to rethink this and make a deflector on the back vs. an enclosure that just dumps the dust down into a barrel somehow? The dust collection unit doesn't seem to be able to combat the air coming off the motor fan.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Which way does the motor blower ...blow?*

It would be unlikely that the cooling fan on the motor would draw sawdust INTO the motor. Rather it would be more likely that it's blowing the created dust in the cabinet through the motor into the airstream of the spinning blade causing all that dust to be blown out of the cabinet as well. I also have direct drive motors on my table saws, but there is no cloud of dust that emits from my saw cabinet. I do have the bottom seal off with the exception of the 4" port for the Jet dust collector. The back was factory made solid with no openings except for a shop vac which I sealed off. I did not seal off the 1/2" or 3/8" gap al around the table to the top of the saw cabinet. This gap allows air to enter and draw the dust down into the DC port. You do NOT want to seal off the entire cabinet or you will create a negative pressure space or vacuum inside the cabinet where there is NO air movement. You need air to move into and through the cabinet for any DC or shop vac to work. You can't seal off all the openings in the cabinet and then use a dust collector or shop vac.

https://www.shophacks.com/tablesawdustcollection.html#/

I assume you are using a 40 tooth all purpose table saw blade in this saw? Possibly a 60 tooth for crosscutting? The 40 tooth would have about a 15 degree tooth angle, not like the newer RAS blades with a negative or zero degree tooth angle. 

If the blower motor is causing this dust to get blown all over, I would suggest trying to wrap the motor with a thin metal tube like a furnace pipe, or even a cardboard tube like from an Oatmeal box, and see if you can draw clean air into the motor from outside the cabinet, but it will depend on which direction the blower is moving the air like I asked above? Typically, gravity is the most effective way the dust is "collected" as you pointed out from your early working experience. Having said that, a cabinet type industrial saw will have the motor and belts all contained inside the cabinet. A contractor type saw, like the early Craftsmans have the motor and drive belt pulley hanging outside the cabinet and a large rear opening for the belt to pass through as well as an open bottom for the dust to fall down to the ground or into a collection bag. There are some aftermarket bottom plates that have a sloped area with a dust port in the middle which is then attached to a shop vac:
https://www.ereplacementparts.com/d...jrt2BLfRnbPkY6kDXJQd5gJ8_Xcc90EwaAsv2EALw_wcB











https://www.danpattison.com/blog/2016/10/7/4-table-saw-dust-collection-upgrades

It could be that this saw was only intended to be used outside and the dust was never a consideration it it's design? :surprise2:


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

woodnthings said:


> It would be unlikely that the cooling fan on the motor would draw sawdust INTO the motor. Rather it would be more likely that it's blowing the created dust in the cabinet through the motor into the airstream of the spinning blade causing all that dust to be blown out of the cabinet as well. I also have direct drive motors on my table saws, but there is no cloud of dust that emits from my saw cabinet. I do have the bottom seal off with the exception of the 4" port for the Jet dust collector. The back was factory made solid with no openings except for a shop vac which I sealed off. I did not seal off the 1/2" or 3/8" gap al around the table to the top of the saw cabinet. This gap allows air to enter and draw the dust down into the DC port. You do NOT want to seal off the entire cabinet or you will create a negative pressure space or vacuum inside the cabinet where there is NO air movement. You need air to move into and through the cabinet for any DC or shop vac to work. You can't seal off all the openings in the cabinet and then use a dust collector or shop vac.


 The motor sits next to and partially into a box on the side of the saw, the bottom of that box is open to allow for airflow. The motor fan is drawing enough air that the bottom of that box to suck a piece of cardboard up and hold it there against that opening, and that's with the area around the table top open and the back of the saw open. It seems to be designed to draw air from outside the cabinet up into the box and over the motor, and then out the back. The fan outlet blows hard out the back of the saw. The outgoing air from the back of the saw with the back open is as strong as the exhaust on my 5hp Sears Shop Vac.


When I'm cutting, even with the back off the saw, I can see dust billowing out from under the edge of the table, falling down the sides and getting sucked up in a swirl into the bottom of the motor box. Dust is also coming out of the handwheel slot on the front of the saw and I get a rooster tail of sawdust upward out of the blade slot. The sawdust coming out of the blade slot is made worse by putting the back panel on the saw, (which I made and added). The saw originally had an open bottom, and open back. I closed off the bottom to try and contain the dust below as it would pile up and foul the casters on the cart I added. With the bottom added, it does catch the majority of the dust but I seem to get just as much on the floor as in the box. The bad part is that it spreads the dust all around, launching it airborne rather than just falling into the bin. 








woodnthings said:


> I assume you are using a 40 tooth all purpose table saw blade in this saw? Possibly a 60 tooth for crosscutting? The 40 tooth would have about a 15 degree tooth angle, not like the newer RAS blades with a negative or zero degree tooth angle.



I'm running a 28t all purpose blade on it right now, it gives me the fastest and cleanest cut ripping 2x4's down into slats. The blade doesn't matter much, I don't think its the blade causing the dust issue, it did the same thing with an 80t Freud blade as well.
I've been sort of careful as to which blades I use on this, this saw turns really fast, I think I read somewhere that it turns 7250 rpm, I think it was an old Montgomery Wards catalog online somewhere. They were making it a selling point that higher RPM makes for better and faster cutting. It sounds really fast when its running, it almost sounds like its running away as you take away any load. I tried using one of those reflective tape type tachometers on it but I got irratic readings anywhere from 6600 to 7780 RPM. 











woodnthings said:


> If the blower motor is causing this dust to get blown all over, I would suggest trying to wrap the motor with a thin metal tube like a furnace pipe, or even a cardboard tube like from an Oatmeal box, and see if you can draw clean air into the motor from outside the cabinet, but it will depend on which direction the blower is moving the air like I asked above? Typically, gravity is the most effective way the dust is "collected" as you pointed out from your early working experience. Having said that, a cabinet type industrial saw will have the motor and belts all contained inside the cabinet. A contractor type saw, like the early Craftsmans have the motor and drive belt pulley hanging outside the cabinet and a large rear opening for the belt to pass through as well as an open bottom for the dust to fall down to the ground or into a collection bag. There are some aftermarket bottom plates that have a sloped area with a dust port in the middle which is then attached to a shop vac:
> 
> It could be that this saw was only intended to be used outside and the dust was never a consideration it it's design? :surprise2:



The motor fan sucks air from the end, I can't tell in the cloud of dust whether its actually just being drawn in around the motor or through it. There's open ports around the brushes, and the fan is only open on one side toward the rear. The air blows straight out the back with a vengeance. But there still is air being forced upward out of the blade slot. The fan is blowing so much air that I have no doubt that its also picking up dust from the cabinet and moving it around, its even sucking it up from outside the cabinet and drawing it into the motor box opening. 



I tried making a screen to try and stop some of the dust coming from the outside by making a small wood frame with three layers of window screen that fits snug into the bottom of the motor box, but it clogs that screen up in half a minute, and that was with the bottom door open and the rear of the saw wide open.


If this thing was made to be used outdoors, they sure didn't make it easy to move, the cabinet didn't have any means to mount wheels, it had 3/4 round legs on the bottom and its twice the weight of my Craftsman saw. Its why I built the heavy duty roller cart for it. To get it on the cart, I had to use a come-a-long and a pipe mounted through my floor joists overhead, two of us couldn't lift it long enough to center it on the cart. When I first brought it home, it sat in my enclosed trailer for about a year, I used it in the trailer a few times but it only had a flat plywood cart under it and the upper and lower back panels weren't there. It made a lot of dust on the table and the steam of dust out the back would blow 20ft in a straight line out the back door of my trailer. I ripped down 8 sheets of plywood for shelving one day and realized it had plastered the wooden fence behind my trailer with sawdust in a 4ft circle. I had to scrape and hose down the fence the next morning. The sawdust stuck to the fence was like fine powder and 4" thick. 



I think because of the blade speed, the dust is a lot finer on this as well, which is adding to the problem of trying to contain it. Even with the 28t blade, the sawdust is like flour with a mix of strings here and there from rip cutting. 



My old Craftsman model 100 saw on its open square stand with only a three sided cardboard box fitted into the lower stand makes almost no dust other than what falls off the table or spills out of the box. It never fills the air with dust to the point I can't breath. 

With the Wards saw I have to wear a respirator and face shield, when I'm done I'm covered with dust, its in my hair, in my beard, in my pockets, and in my shoes. I feel like I rolled in a pile of sawdust. It covers everything in the basement. 



I found that the dust collection unit does better if I leave it off the saw and just leave the vacuum port open, it then draws in the surrounding air and filters out the dust. It does little to nothing connected to the bottom of the cabinet or with the hose hanging behind or below the blade. 



After ripping 18 2x4's into 3/8" thick strips, I have 1" of sawdust in the bottom of the box, and about a coffee can full in the dust collection bag. The rest is airborne and all over the place. I hung clear plastic around the corner of the basement where I was running the saw to try and contain the dust in one area. 



I really had hoped that this saw would be similar to the Craftsman, but with a nicer fence and faster cut. If it would drop its sawdust downward, I don't mind cleaning out the box when I'm done and sweeping the floor around it. I was hoping to not have to run a dust collection unit with it. I don't on the Craftsman saws.


I have this and a slightly larger Delta dust collection unit, I don't have a pic handy of the Delta but its an early version of the 50-767.
This red unit has less capacity than the Delta but it moves double the amount of air. I generally run the Delta on the surface planer and larger miter saw, and this one on this and another table saw I have. The red unit is much quieter too.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Not one to give up easily .....*

With regard to your dust issue, I came across this table saw blade shroud for Rigid saws and since it was only $11.00 + shipping i ordered one just to see what it was like.... 

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/d...5Yc7RfD7VslLCXuz-LyoX5gJebOcPF1hoCYucQAvD_BwE


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

I did a few experiments with this saw. I had a buddy run a few boards through the saw while I watched what was going on inside. 
When the saw is cutting, about half the dust goes downward off the blade, the other half is thrown up through the slot or off the top of the blade. The motor is drawing in dust that's both in the air, off the table top, and off the floor up through the open bottom of the motor box on the side. That dust is blown by the fan as well. If I block the rear of the upper cabinet about half way, the air off the motor hits the rear panel, and deflects that air both down into the lower box and around the upper cabinet creating a swirl effect. This is lifting the air up out of the box and pushing it out every little crack or opening. The more I seal up the cabinet, the worse this gets.
I intentionally didn't seal up the cabinet so as not to restrict air flow but I think I underestimated the power of the motor fan. 

I'm thinking what needs to happen is to find a way for the motor fan outgoing air to evacuate out of the box so it don't pickup the saw dust. I thought about attaching something just to the outlet fan port on the motor but its not accessible when the blade is cranked beyond 1/2 way up.
Stopping the intake of air heats up the motor, as does trying to filter the air going in because it clogs the screen so fast. 
Its almost like the two sides of the saw need to be isolated for any dust control to work. 
The motor fan air is mixing with the dust, blowing it everywhere, thus letting it get sucked back into the motor unless I simply let it blow the dust out and far away from the saw.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I posted this in a different thread ....*

I found this dust shroud for Rigid table saws for $11.00 + shipping, so I ordeedr one just to see what it was. It may work on your saw if you want to catch most of the dust coming off the blade, which I think is exactly what's needed.
https://www.ereplacementparts.com/d...5Yc7RfD7VslLCXuz-LyoX5gJebOcPF1hoCYucQAvD_BwE


:vs_cool:


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

It would depend if that baffle completely covers the blade or not. If it just sits behind it, it won't do much good as the pressure from the motor fan will likely still disturb the air flow. Being its f for a Rigid, it'll likely fit Craftsman as well but this PowerKraft is a very different animal. The basic layout is the same but the castings are different and much larger than the Emerson built saws. 

I'm thinking that if I could somehow separate the motor airflow from the sawdust it may stop all the swirling action that's going on. 
I had originally thought about putting a louver panel right behind the fan output, but I didn't because I figured the motor had good ventilation from both the bottom of the motor cover box and through the front hand wheel slot. I didn't count on it being such an issue when it comes to handling the dust. 
I'd prefer to not have to run a dust collector, especially since I don't have to on my Crafsman. The newer Rigid saw came with dust ports, and like the PowerKraft, the Rigid has its motor in the cabinet. The difference is that the Rigid doesn't draw its air from the outside of the cabinet so there's no pressure or turbulence to overcome. With the Rigid, there's little choice but to run a vacuum or dust collector, which is why I sort of prefer the older Craftsman.


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

I tried a few things yesterday with the PowrKraft saw, first off I tried blocking the openings with some sheet magnetic material. I soon realized that it wasn't staying in place. I then realized that for what ever reason the magnetic material doesn't stick well to the saw cabinet. It sticks, but barely. Apparently the upper part of the saw cabinet is made form some lower grade of stainless steel. So the magnetic idea is out the window. 

I then simply took a piece of 1/4" plywood and cut it to fit over the slot in the front of the saw, with a thumb wheel and T bolt to hold it in place. 


Next I want to try and isolate the motor fan air from the blade area, if I can keep the saw dust to one side of the cabinet, I should be able to eliminate some of the turbulence caused by the saw motor fan. I'm thinking of just attaching a rubber flap to form a duct over and under the motor, with a set of louvers out the back of the saw to let the air exit the fan without taking sawdust with it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*In this case you want to isolate the blade*

Because of the difficulty in sealing the cabinet, sealing the motor blower, the next best thing...... and always the best thing, is to cover the blade from underneath, That's why I posted the link to the Rigid blade cover above. Now, I don't know anything about it's size, but having had to make a sheet metal one myself, it would be worth a try. JMO. You seem creative enough to come up with something ... metal pie pans taped together with a cut out for mounting, tabs folded over etc but anything that will capture the dust with your shop vac BEFORE it gets blasted into the room by the motor cooling blower. My sheet metal shroud has an adjustable sliding panel for different blade heights. I soldered the seams if I recall where it needed to be joined together.
Once the sawdust gets into the cabinet it's too late to try to capture it by any means yoiu have available. A 10 HP dust collector might work ... I donno?
:surprise2:


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

It's not going to be easy, it looks like it was built as a contractor saw for a build site and who cares about dust on a build site. To turn it into a shop saw may require some ingenuity.


Could you take a 6 or 8 inch piece of pipe or ducting and put it around the motor so that the air coming out of the motor is directed back towards the side of the saw? Then also take a duct the size of the end of the motor and extend it out through the elbow of the larger duct. You'll end up with a flow similar to that of a gas fireplace where it's a pipe within a pipe and the air comes in through the outer chamber then leaves through the central one. the ducts could all be flat against the motor on top so it's adjustable and they would all move with the motor as it's raised or lowered.


Or you could sell it on Craigslist and buy an indoor saw.


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## slowleak (May 8, 2020)

Putting anything around the motor would be tough, the motor moves in an arc from top to bottom, it comes very close to the top and bottom of the cabinet opening and very close to the box at the mid way point. All of the motor vents are on the sides, the intake vents are between the brush caps, which sort of make the motor oval shaped. 
I think it'll be easier to separate the left and right of the cabinet. The main casting is solid and fits up flush front and back, some pipe insulation and a rubber flap should separate the motor side from the blade side. 
What I want to try is to attach a piece of heavy rubber from the bottom of the fixed casting and over across the cabinet under the motor. I'll add some louvers on the motor side to let the air exit the cabinet while the saw dust will be able to drop to the bottom. I think if I can stop the motor fan from pressurizing the cabinet it'll stop the majority of saw dust blowing up past the blade and around the sides. Louvers at the point of venting will direct the air downward rather than across he room as well.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The blade shroud arrived today*



woodnthings said:


> I found this dust shroud for Rigid table saws for $11.00 + shipping, so I ordered one just to see what it was. It may work on your saw if you want to catch most of the dust coming off the blade, which I think is exactly what's needed.
> https://www.ereplacementparts.com/d...5Yc7RfD7VslLCXuz-LyoX5gJebOcPF1hoCYucQAvD_BwE
> :vs_cool:


So, as an experiment of sorts because my direct drive saws have a less flagrant dust issue, I ordered one of these Rigid blade shrouds knowing that's for a completetly different saw, but far easier to modify this one than to make a new one from scratch. It also my work to isolate the blade on your vintage saw. A simple flat panel on the open side would close it off enough to concentrate the suction from a shop vac. The suction hose port is also perfect in size. These photos will show you what it's like:


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