# To cyclone or not to cyclone.



## autoBrad (May 21, 2008)

Hey guys,

I posted a message a while ago and I was going to buy a small cheap dust collector. Well, I never did and I'm thinking of going with a much better one.. bonus, the wife is talking about buying me it for x-mas.. 

So, I am looking at a grizzly.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Canister-Dust-Collector/G0548

And I definitely know I want one with a cartridge type instead of just a bag. Now, i started looking at cyclones to and am trying to figure out the advantages. The obvious one seems to be that the cyclone filters down from like .2 - 2 micron, where as the regular dust collector goes down to 1 micron. Now these are specs of the two I am comparting. Also, you obviously lose a bunch of cfm's with the cyclone. 

Here's the cyclone i was looking at..

http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Cyclone-Dust-Collector/G0440

So the non cyclone is 2hp and pulls 1700cfm whereas the 2hp cyclone pulls 1354 cfm. The non cyclone is about 500 bucks after shipping and the cyclone is about 1000 bucks after you factor in the stand that I would need. I'm just thinking is it better to go like with the more volume or go with less volume but have the better filtration?? 

Obviously, i realize that for double the price that well, the cyclone should be better haha. Also, I realize that a cyclone doesn't lose suction as the bag fills up.. I guess mainly, I'm trying to figure out health wise if the cyclone is that much better... 

Any input is appreciated and I'm not stuck on the grizzly ones but I do like them.

Thanks

Brad


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

A cyclone is a GREAT way to go, but you can always add a cyclonic separator to that Grizzly DC and achieve similar results for a LOT less money...

On the cheap, there are two ways to do this. Two of them are based on Phil Thien's cyclonic separator baffle design, and one is a Bill Pentz idea. Or at least I have seen it credited to Bill.

The following are mods done to the popular Harbor Freight 2HP dust collector.

#1. Build a Thien Cyclone Separator lid for a trash can or drum. http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=15.0 









#2. Build a Thien Baffle that goes into the collar part of the dust collector.http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=71.0
(Tried linking the images, but go follow the link to the thread, it's easier...)

#3. Build and install a neutral vane.http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?p=316795#post316795
Again, look at the thread for the pics, too many to post here...

From the folks that have built them, the most effective seems to be the Thien Cyclone on a 55 gallon drum. Not counting a clean drum, and assuming you have some PVC fittings around the house, and some scrap plywood, you should be out less than $20.00 ($4.99 each for 4inch dust collection flanged ports from Peachtree Woodworking + shipping). You will need hoses of course, but you will need hoses for dust collection anyway.

A good used drum can be found on Craigslist for $15.00 if you watch often enough...


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

I just bought a Penn State Industries Tempest 142 cyclone and mounted it to the wall instead of buying a stand, it's on the wall solid as a rock. I use to have a Grizzly G1029 2hp DC with low micron bags and a trash can seperator. The beauty of a cyclone is the wood chips or anything else heavy do not come into contact with the impeller, they drop straight down, the trash can seperator on a regular DC like the one that dbhost shows works about the same way, but takes up more shop space and is one more thing I would have to setup at the begining of the day, and most days I didn't want to take that extra time to set it up and didn't use the seperator, my shop is also my garage that I park our vehicles in, so space against the wall is very limited. The other advantage to a cyclone is there is no messy bag to empty on one with a cartridge filter, a trash can seperator on a regular DC though does dramatically cut down on haveing to empty bags. For me though the cyclone is a more efficient unit and works out the best in my shop conditions. As you can see, I'm not quite done hooking it all up, hopefully in the very near future. I didn't buy the cartridge filter model, this one came with a 5 micron bag. The reasons were, funds were low and it was cheaper, and I heard some stories that if you do alot of fine sanding the cartridges plug up faster. I also think the cartridges are harder to clean, a couple wacks with a yard stick and the bag is clean, there is a zipper at the bottom of the bag so theres no need to remove the bag when cleaning it out.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

One word comes to mind seeing that PSI...

Schwing!

Okay maybe not to THAT extreme, but pretty danged sweet...


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## autoBrad (May 21, 2008)

Is the Thien Cyclone Separator lid different than the link below? I have seen the like lids that go ontop of garbage cans before. I mean at that point, it's pretty close to a regular cyclone, right?? I am thinking that I don't have 1000 dollars for the cyclone with the stand(I don't want to put that load on my walls), but for like 500 plus a lid and can.. That could be awesome.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/30-Gallon-Dust-Collection-2-Stage-Cyclone-Separator/G3376


That Penn state one looks awesome.. I seen your pics in another post, good job. I bet you can't wait to get it all finished.

Thanks

Brad


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Phil's baffle is a huge improvement over those commercial offereings. 

The directed air flow, as well as the baffle are what make it a cyclone separator instead of just a separator. There is a HUGE difference...

The time and effort of building a Thien Cyclone is well worth it. I did one for my shop vac based system, after trying one of those lid separators that let way too much past, and am pleasantly impressed with it. For a 4" input / output separator lid, you will need the following tools and supplies.

#1. Means to cut the circles. Preferrably a router, straight cutting bit, and circle cutting jig.
#2. Means to cut a rabbet in the upper disk. If you don't have a rabbeting router bit and bearing set, this is a GREAT excuse to buy one.
#3. Means of measuring and marking 240" off to mark out your 1.125" notch for the baffle to work. A pencil, a string, a protractor, and a 1x2 are what I used.
#4. A means of cutting out your notch. In my case I used a combination of my HF Band Saw, and my Jig Saw. (There were places the band saw was not going to be able to get to...) For your 4", that jig saw will come in handy next unless you want to use a giant hole saw...
#5. A means to cut the 4" diameter holes to match up flush with the 4" ID Schedule 40.
#6. Enough 3/4" plywood to build both disks.
#7. 4" PVC Schedule 40 street elbow, and a short (1.5" to 2") 4" schedule 40 nipple. 4" Dust Collection flanged adapters, 1/2" long mounting screws with a flat bottom.
#8. Means to cut the PVC elbow and sand it flush as shown in the pics on Phils site.
#9. Hot glue gun.
#10, some means to make 3 spacers. I used all thread, nuts, and washers.

So far I am happy enough with mine, but I already gave you the heads up on where I goofed on mine. I have some rework to do before it is 100% complete... But it is mostly functional now...



See my thread http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=72.0 for more detailed information on my Thien Cyclone and learn from my mistakes...


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I went the Bill Penze method and added a cyclone to my regular collector. It works flawlessly and I am very satisfied. That said if I had to buy a new system I would just buy the cyclone right out. I think there are two big advantages to the cyclone setup. One the filter, whether it bag or cartidge is not constantly being bombarded with dust and debris esentially clogging it and loosing suction. The second is I don't have to deal with the stupid bags and clamps, just take the trash can out back and dump it. No matter what you will be happy with either of those units and they will do what you want. No matter how many cfm's come from a machine you'll always be regulated by the size of the supply line. Good luck on your purchase.............:thumbsup:


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## smitty1967 (Feb 24, 2008)

Hey Brad:

I have the Grizzly G0440 2hp d/c you quoted above, and I would definately recommend it to anyone. But I'm warning you, have a helper around (OK, *2* helpers!) when it comes time to lift that thing! 

I tell you what, I bet there are nuclear containment vessels that don't weigh as much as this thing weighs! 

The performance on mine is great---except for collecting at the miter saw, which isn't a fault of the collector. Its just a hard tool to collect from, from what I've read.

Also, the Grizzly company has been great with me on two unrelated customer service issues so far. I would definately recommend them--have in the past and will continue to do so.

(this picture was taken prior to hanging the PVC plennum)

regards,
smitty


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## Paul K (Jan 14, 2008)

I have an Oneida cyclone and a Delta rolling cannister type. (You might ask why, and the short answer is that I have two shops, far enough apart) The Delta does a good job, and the cannister is very easy to clean, takes about 3 seconds every time I empty the bag. That said, I do a fair amount of work and there are days when I have to clamp and unclamp that darn bag about 5 times to empty it. As for the cyclone, I've had that for 15 years I think, and I hooked it up outside the shop, with a return air into the shop with the fine bags. Hardley EVER have had to deal with the bags in the shop. As other have said, very little gets to them. As per the shavings, well, instead of hooking to a cannister or bag outside, I just built a fairly large container, about 3 cubic yards in volume using plywood, with a door on it. 3 yards is a fairly large amount, and that means I don't have to clean it as often. When I do, I just open the door and shovel it out. If I had the time, I would probably replace the cannister with another cyclone. Less hassle. 
Paul


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

In response to how a Thien Cyclone separator works, yes, it works VERY much like a true cyclone. Mind you mine is based on a shop vac setup, which has static pressure advantages over a DC, but has serious CFM disadvantages. 

In regards to how it differs from the separator lids sold commercially by Grizzly, Woodcraft, Rockler, Peachtree, and others... Take a look at the view of the assembled Thien Cyclone Separator lid and baffle.


The incoming stream inlets through the elbow, and is pushed into a cyclonic action around the outside of the can where the chips and fines separate out fall through the slot in the baffle and into the can. The heavier air stream stays in the cyclonic stream, the lighter, cleaned air exits via the lower pressure and into the vac, where any remaining fines are removed by the HEPA filter. 

Before I post my most relevant thread on this issue, I would like to say there are some assertions made that I still stand by. But I want folks to understand that I am NOT saying that a full blown DC is inappropriate, but rather the typical DC with the 4" ducting is undersized to achieve the CFM needed for effective dust collection, and the collectors cannot generate enough static pressure to PULL the chips and fine effectively. From what I can tell, the WW shop is best off with a cyclonic vac setup along with a 6" ducted DC of sufficient CFM draw, and ultra fine (sub micron) filtration such as the Wynn 25A on a DC, and HEPA filters on your vac.

Below is a copy and paste of a thread I posted on my primary WW forum. (LOVE WWT.com but the other forum tends to have more woodworkers that are equipped similarly to me, with the same issues and some interesting workarounds...)http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=41549&page=2


************BEGIN COPY / PASTE OF OUTSIDE POST***********
I have had my cyclone complete and functioning for a little over a week, and I have had a bit of work going on in my shop. chasing leaks in my plumbing system. With the leaks stopped (taped over joints), plus after discovering that I could wash out my Ridgid HEPA filter and reuse it I was able to bypass the need for the Clean Stream HEPA filter (Saved myself $35.00 after tax..). Performance wise. I find that I can just touch the end of an extended tool hose and it will contract immediately just like running it straight off the vac.

Some planing, a lot of routing, plenty of table saw work, and lots of work on the oscillating sander

I have filled the 20 gallon trash can about 2/3 of the way with mostly planer shavings, router chips and fine dust from sanding operations with the oscillating sander.

The filter itself has a barely visible dusting of fines, there actually appears to be LESS dust in the bottom of the vac compared to the photo I posted after first testing.

So for the function so far, this works not only as well as I had hoped, but far better...

I've also been reading Bill Pentz' web site, and I tend to agree with a great deal he talks about. This setup with the shop vac I think from what I can tell from Bill's site is probably a better functioning system than a 4" ducted full DC due to the higher static pressure, since the 4" duct DC can't move either enough CFM or static pressure...

The amount of dust, and dirt that was in the filter after the weeks worth of work and testing...


The amount of material that was in the trash can cyclone after a weeks worth of work and testing.


The amount of material left in the vac after a weeks worth of work and testing.
*NOTE ABOUT THE VAC PIC*** I empited the vac into the can after the initial test, and prior to planing, sanding, etc...


I somewhat suspect that the fines that had been in the can after the first runs were there because the filter was so plugged as to not allow sufficient airflow. With the filter cleaned, it made all the difference in the world, however the fines appear to have gotten sucked up into the filter...

There is no dust on the inside of the filter housing, or on the exhaust from the vac. So at least from that measure we seem to be effective.

I now would very much like to clean the filter, AND the interior surfaces of all components involved to have a completely blank slate to test from again. But so far I am very impressed with the results.
************END COPY / PASTE OF OUTSIDE POST***********

Reports from various users on Phil Thien's forum report that his design scales well, and can be adapted easily for 4", 6", and so on size ducted systems, you simply need the right size hose, fittings, drum / can, and adjust your layout accordingly.

If budget is a concern, this is a pretty good option to a full blown Cyclone...

I would recommend reading Bill Pentz' site, that has been mentioned previously. He has more information than you can possibly process on there about dust collection.


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

dbhost said:


> But I want folks to understand that I am NOT saying that a full blown DC is inappropriate, but rather the typical DC with the 4" ducting is undersized to achieve the CFM needed for effective dust collection, and the collectors cannot generate enough static pressure to PULL the chips and fine effectively. From what I can tell, the WW shop is best off with a cyclonic vac setup along with a 6" ducted DC of sufficient CFM draw, and ultra fine (sub micron) filtration such as the Wynn 25A on a DC, and HEPA filters on your vac.


I'm not sure that I can agree with all of that, there are too many variables of machinery and configurations of DC lines to be that general in description of use. I'm not totally sold on cartridge filters either, but thats just my opinion.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Blame Bill Pentz, and OSHA for that... They are the sources for the idea that the 4" duct won't make for proper flow.


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## user4178 (Apr 18, 2008)

Yeah, I think the Bill Pentz article gets a little too deep and mind numbing after awhile. Grizzly is kind of funny too, they recommend a 5" port for tablesaws, but nobody, includeing themselves sells one, even if they did, that extra inch isn't going to help that much on a poorly designed port that they sell anyway. As far as OSHA goes, well I don't think I need to say much there. One thing you've got to remember though, is that a dust collector isn't an air filtration machine.


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I will admit that the suction on my DC is insane with 6" all the way through. The 4" line limits it a bit but I have no gauges to to prove that. That said the 4" line serves my equipment just fine and going 6" isn't feesable or worth the end results in my mind. I agree with Woodchuck though Bills work is enough to make your eyes bleed and your brain hurts. Get something that works and concentrate on woodworking, not cfms, and water units and what not.


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## red (Sep 30, 2008)

*To cyclone or not to cyclone.* 

Short answer; Cyclone if the budget allows. You won't be sorry. Red


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## BesBob (Jul 25, 2009)

Hey Smitty, how are you? I am interested in the same DC as you have. Can you tell me more about it and your set up? Like how big is your shop and how good is the suction at the machines. I have a 15x30 shop and was wondering if that would be good enough or should I go with the 3HP Grizzly G00441. BesBob


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