# Need to seal color in before top coating.



## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

I am refinishing a mahogany veneered dining room table. The color is water diluted TransTint dark walnut dye. It is quite dark but enough mahogany grain comes through to make it show very nicely.

The problem that I ran into was when I applied an oil based polyurethane. This lightened the overall color and brought out the redness of the mahogany.

I have stripped the color and top coats off and am going to start over. What I planned to do after applying the dark walnut dye was to seal the color in with DNA diluted Zinsser SealCoat. My concern is that the DNA will damaged the wood dye that has been applied.

I am looking for advice on how to seal in the color before top coating. Thank you.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You are correct the alcohol will wash off the dye. If you sprayed it wouldn't be an issue but working it by hand is an issue. In this case I think you should use an oil based stain. Actually what I used for mahogany tables is a pastewood grain that was tinted so you could stain and fill the grain in one step. If you are not wanting the red you could use a walnut grain filler and any of them can be tinted. I used the fillers from Mohawk Finishing Products.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You are correct the alcohol will wash off the dye. If you sprayed it wouldn't be an issue but working it by hand is an issue. In this case I think you should use an oil based stain. Actually what I used for mahogany tables is a pastewood grain that was tinted so you could stain and fill the grain in one step. If you are not wanting the red you could use a walnut grain filler and any of them can be tinted. I used the fillers from Mohawk Finishing Products.


Steve I had tried an oil based stain but could not achieve the darkness desired by the customer.

Can I seal with Zinsser SealCoat NOT diluted at all? Or will that still lift the dye color out?

Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> Steve I had tried an oil based stain but could not achieve the darkness desired by the customer.
> 
> Can I seal with Zinsser SealCoat NOT diluted at all? Or will that still lift the dye color out?
> 
> Gary


You can buy Zinsser Seal Coat in a spray can. I would spray on a couple of coats, then sand lightly with 320 grit. Then you should be go to go and finish out your finish without lifting some of the dye.....all your looking for is a way to seal the dye. The aerosol can will do that.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Zinsser-...30463&wl11=online&wl12=21078941&wl13=&veh=sem


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> You can buy Zinsser Seal Coat in a spray can. I would spray on a couple of coats, then sand lightly with 320 grit. Then you should be go to go and finish out your finish without lifting some of the dye.....all your looking for is a way to seal the dye. The aerosol can will do that.
> 
> Thank you for the input. My challenge will be finding SealCoat in a spray can locally but I sure will look around.
> 
> Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> ColorStylist said:
> 
> 
> > You can buy Zinsser Seal Coat in a spray can. I would spray on a couple of coats, then sand lightly with 320 grit. Then you should be go to go and finish out your finish without lifting some of the dye.....all your looking for is a way to seal the dye. The aerosol can will do that.
> ...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I had tried an oil based stain but could not achieve the darkness desired by the customer.
> 
> Can I seal with Zinsser SealCoat NOT diluted at all? Or will that still lift the dye color out?
> 
> Gary


You might not be able to buy a can of stain off the shelf dark enough but if you would stock yourself with a selection of universal tinting color you could alter most stains all the way to black if needed. Another option would be to use oil based enamels for stain. Anyway universal tinting color is important for a refinisher to have when matching colors. It's the colorant a paint store uses to tint paint. Some stores will dispence the colorant into empty cans for you and some stores sell it in bottle such as Cal-Tint. 

The problem with brushing Sealcoat is the product contains alcohol which would pick up the dye. If you could find it in aerosol cans that sure would help. Be careful sanding it. A coat of the Sealcoat from an aerosol can would be so thing it would be easy to sand through. Keep the sanding at a minimum. It's just a barrier coat between the dye and your finish coat.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve is correct. That's why I said to spray on a couple of coats, then sand lightly. Its hard to put on a thick coat with aerosols, but it should give you enough protection as to not influence the dye stain underneath.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> GAF said:
> 
> 
> > Try Home Depot. The Clear aerospray Zinsser Bull's Eye Shellac distributed in Canada carries product number 00418.
> ...


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> You might not be able to buy a can of stain off the shelf dark enough but if you would stock yourself with a selection of universal tinting color you could alter most stains all the way to black if needed. Another option would be to use oil based enamels for stain. Anyway universal tinting color is important for a refinisher to have when matching colors. It's the colorant a paint store uses to tint paint. Some stores will dispence the colorant into empty cans for you and some stores sell it in bottle such as Cal-Tint.
> 
> The problem with brushing Sealcoat is the product contains alcohol which would pick up the dye. If you could find it in aerosol cans that sure would help. Be careful sanding it. A coat of the Sealcoat from an aerosol can would be so thing it would be easy to sand through. Keep the sanding at a minimum. It's just a barrier coat between the dye and your finish coat.


Steve I don't have universal tinting colors but maybe after all this time I should get some.

I am hoping to find spray SealCoat to solve the problem in this situation.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If a paint store won't dispense some for you in a empty container it's available in bottles like this. http://www.uspaintsupply.com/paint/cal-tint-ii-colorants/ 13 bucks sounds like a lot for a bottle but the stuff is so concentrated you usually only use drops at a time. A bottle would last you for years. My sherwin williams will dispense out of their machines so what I do is put it in harbor freight squeeze bottles. http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-3-8-oz-storage-bottles-with-twist-caps-66170.html


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If a paint store won't dispense some for you in a empty container it's available in bottles like this. http://www.uspaintsupply.com/paint/cal-tint-ii-colorants/ 13 bucks sounds like a lot for a bottle but the stuff is so concentrated you usually only use drops at a time. A bottle would last you for years. My sherwin williams will dispense out of their machines so what I do is put it in harbor freight squeeze bottles. http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-3-8-oz-storage-bottles-with-twist-caps-66170.html


Thanks for the details Steve. This stuff sounds like the TransTint dye that I use ... very small plastic containers but they do last for years.

I did find Zinsser spray shellac at Home Depot (thanks ColorStylist) and sprayed 2 coats last evening. This morning I will proceed with oil based top coating.

Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> Thanks for the details Steve. This stuff sounds like the TransTint dye that I use ... very small plastic containers but they do last for years.
> 
> I did find Zinsser spray shellac at Home Depot (thanks ColorStylist) and sprayed 2 coats last evening. This morning I will proceed with oil based top coating.
> 
> Gary


Be careful and test sand a small part of the project just to make sure you have enough build from the aerosol can and that you dont go through to the dye stain. Again, sand lightly! You can always build up your finish with the top coat you are using.

If you do alot of color work, you might as well invest in good U-dye concentrates as well as wipe stain colorants. It will save you time and money in the long run. :thumbsup:


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> Be careful and test sand a small part of the project just to make sure you have enough build from the aerosol can and that you dont go through to the dye stain. Again, sand lightly! You can always build up your finish with the top coat you are using.
> 
> If you do alot of color work, you might as well invest in good U-dye concentrates as well as wipe stain colorants. It will save you time and money in the long run. :thumbsup:


I have some good news and lots of bad news. 

Good News: I did sand carefully and did not go through the shellac shield.

Bad News: The red hue of the mahogany still shows and I am at a standstill again.

I shopped around to buy pigments locally and generally this was a bad experience. I did find one paint store that would sell me some pigments but I was told that it was not a simple matter of adding a dark walnut pigment to an oil based stain to solve my problem. The color matching process seemed pretty complicated.

Then I was told that perhaps I could use an espresso PAINT and wipe it back to leave the desired color and then top coat after that. This was something totally new to me.

I left the shop confused and do not know what my next step should be.

Gary

P.S. This was supposed to be an "easy" project.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> I have some good news and lots of bad news.
> 
> Good News: I did sand carefully and did not go through the shellac shield.
> 
> ...


Your first coat of varnish mix some green dye in it and the red will go away. The green will neutralize the red.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Your first coat of varnish mix some green dye in it and the red will go away. The green will neutralize the red.


GAF....Make sure you test a small area first and get the strength of the green tint right if you do this method. The right amount of green tint will kill the red and give you a browner color. Too much green and you will start to go on the cool side of the walnut color your looking for.....meaning too green.

If you could spray, you could just mix up some green dye....or yellow with a little bit of black dye to make green......in alcohol or ethanol and "shade" your way to the color you want.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Your first coat of varnish mix some green dye in it and the red will go away. The green will neutralize the red.


Steve if only it were that easy for me.

I don't have any TransTint green dye and to my knowledge it would not dissolve in an oil based poly if I had it.

So I am stuck on not having all the tools to get the job done. Of course I can buy those tools but that will take time since I will have to order online. My problem to solve.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> GAF....Make sure you test a small area first and get the strength of the green tint right if you do this method. The right amount of green tint will kill the red and give you a browner color. Too much green and you will start to go on the cool side of the walnut color your looking for.....meaning too green.
> 
> If you could spray, you could just mix up some green dye....or yellow with a little bit of black dye to make green......in alcohol or ethanol and "shade" your way to the color you want.


Thanks for the counselling. I have everything to learn about this approach to managing colors. And at this point I have none of the weapons needed to do it properly.

Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

The only other thing I would know to do is purchase a green toner/blocker aerosol can, like this:
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.516862/sc.2/category.114222/.f

Otherwise, you will have to be careful when trying to adjust color by wiping on a finish. You can easily leave stripes throughout the surface and will obviously give you and show you an uneven color.

I'm even thinking with an aerosol can it will be difficult to obtain even color without leaving stripes in the finish.

Believe me Gary, a spray gun is your best friend if your a furniture refinisher!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve if only it were that easy for me.
> 
> I don't have any TransTint green dye and to my knowledge it would not dissolve in an oil based poly if I had it.
> 
> ...


I hate to resurrect an old argument but you really need to get you a paint sprayer. You could use a alcohol based aniline dye and just spray some green on it. 

Transtint does come in green. http://www.rockler.com/transtintreg-dyes I don't use transtint so I couldn't be sure it would mix with varnish. I know Mohawk Finishing Products makes a Blendal powder stain that should mix with varnish. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=130 It will mix with almost anything.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve is correct, that powder will go in oil.....it will just be hard to apply and keep even.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ColorStylist said:


> Steve is correct, that powder will go in oil.....it will just be hard to apply and keep even.


Brushing it, it would be better to thin the varnish and mix it thinner and use two or three coats rather than do it all at once like a gel stain.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> The only other thing I would know to do is purchase a green toner/blocker aerosol can, like this:
> http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.516862/sc.2/category.114222/.f
> 
> Otherwise, you will have to be careful when trying to adjust color by wiping on a finish. You can easily leave stripes throughout the surface and will obviously give you and show you an uneven color.
> ...


This color game is more complex than I would have imagined. Not being able to spray has been a problem for me a few times over the last few years. And once again I am in trouble. Thanks for trying to help.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I hate to resurrect an old argument but you really need to get you a paint sprayer. You could use a alcohol based aniline dye and just spray some green on it.
> 
> Transtint does come in green. http://www.rockler.com/transtintreg-dyes I don't use transtint so I couldn't be sure it would mix with varnish. I know Mohawk Finishing Products makes a Blendal powder stain that should mix with varnish. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=130 It will mix with almost anything.



Steve given my physical set up here at home I don't know if I will ever have a spray capability.

Buying some of the dye that will mix with varnish seems like a good investment for me.

Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Brushing it, it would be better to thin the varnish and mix it thinner and use two or three coats rather than do it all at once like a gel stain.


Yes, you would definitely have to thin it or you would start to loose clarity of the wood.

When thinning and brushing, you still risk striping the finish by mistakenly over lapping brush strokes when trying to do color corrections. The more coats you put on, the worse it can get.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> This color game is more complex than I would have imagined. Not being able to spray has been a problem for me a few times over the last few years. And once again I am in trouble. Thanks for trying to help.
> 
> Gary


If you could spray, you could have simply applied a weak, green dye to the bare mahogany wood first and then applied your clear coats. This would have been the easiest way to correct the problem your having from the beginning. Even still, you would have to get the strength of the green dye right to achieve the color your seeking. Its always better to do a test piece or test an inconspicuous spot first before finishing out. 

Next time try wiping mineral spirits on the bare wood and look at the color while it is wet. That will give you an idea of what the color of the wood will look like before applying a clear finish. When I do color work and use a wipe stain, I spray a coat of Naptha over the wiping stain and quickly view the color as you can not wipe over the wiping stain with any solvents as it will alter the wiping stain obviously. 

The more you color match, the more tricks you learn along the way.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> If you could spray, you could have simply applied a weak, green dye to the bare mahogany wood first and then applied your clear coats. This would have been the easiest way to correct the problem your having from the beginning. Even still, you would have to get the strength of the green dye right to achieve the color your seeking. Its always better to do a test piece or test an inconspicuous spot first before finishing out.
> 
> Next time try wiping mineral spirits on the bare wood and look at the color while it is wet. That will give you an idea of what the color of the wood will look like before applying a clear finish. When I do color work and use a wipe stain, I spray a coat of Naptha over the wiping stain and quickly view the color as you can not wipe over the wiping stain with any solvents as it will alter the wiping stain obviously.
> 
> The more you color match, the more tricks you learn along the way.


I am at my wits end on this project. I have tons of patience but not enough beer. I will be unable to deliver the requested color. In my 5 years of refinishing this is the 3rd time I have been stooped dead. Not a good feeling.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> I am at my wits end on this project. I have tons of patience but not enough beer. I will be unable to deliver the requested color. In my 5 years of refinishing this is the 3rd time I have been stooped dead. Not a good feeling.
> 
> Gary


Where are you at now on the project?


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Where are you at now on the project?


Steve the dining room table is completely sanded and ready to stain/dye and then top coat. My revised plan now is to abandon this table which I was refinishing for my step son and start another dining room table for him. The other table is solid walnut which will not have the reddish color issue. Later I will complete the original table in a traditional mahogany color.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If the table is down to bare wood killing the red would be so much easier. You could just start with the green dye and then stain the table. I have a table the natural color of the wood was extremely red. I used some bleach and then for color used only this dye, http://woodfinisherssource.com/cart...k-ultra-penetrating-stain-green-qt-m520-4136/ and the table has closer to a walnut color to it now. On raw wood the dye would be a lot easier to apply by hand.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If the table is down to bare wood killing the red would be so much easier. You could just start with the green dye and then stain the table. I have a table the natural color of the wood was extremely red. I used some bleach and then for color used only this dye, http://woodfinisherssource.com/cart...k-ultra-penetrating-stain-green-qt-m520-4136/ and the table has closer to a walnut color to it now. On raw wood the dye would be a lot easier to apply by hand.



Thanks for your continuing advice Steve even after I had given up.


I just ordered some green dye powder from Lee Valley (details below) and will hope that it gets shipped to me quickly so I can try to rectify this project.

It drives me crazy that I have to spend $26 for an ounce of such stuff. Exchange (price was quoted in US $s even though it is a Canadian web site) and shipping are really big problems.

Gary
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20082&cat=1,190,42942


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Thanks for your continuing advice Steve even after I had given up.
> 
> 
> I just ordered some green dye powder from Lee Valley (details below) and will hope that it gets shipped to me quickly so I can try to rectify this project.
> ...


That's one thing I don't miss about furniture refinishing, it takes so many different supplies you can tie up a fortune trying to maintain it. Then when you need something you find out it's been so long since you used it last the product has gone bad. Dyes are pretty safe in that respect though. I still have a bottle of dye from Star Finishing Products and I think they sold out to Mohawk in 1998.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> That's one thing I don't miss about furniture refinishing, it takes so many different supplies you can tie up a fortune trying to maintain it. Then when you need something you find out it's been so long since you used it last the product has gone bad. Dyes are pretty safe in that respect though. I still have a bottle of dye from Star Finishing Products and I think they sold out to Mohawk in 1998.


You got that right Steve.

Sounds like you are right out of actual refinishing. How many years did you do it?

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> You got that right Steve.
> 
> Sounds like you are right out of actual refinishing. How many years did you do it?
> 
> Gary


I still do some refinishing work however I closed the refinishing shop in 1994. It got to the point where I couldn't get any help and I was paying $1200. a month for a rented building so I built a shop on my own land and got rid of the employees and building. I had the refinishing shop for ten years and I had one antique dealer that was sending more and more reproduction street lights and patio furniture to be painted. The two jobs were incompatible with each other. I would have furniture sitting in my shop drying and the wind would change directions and blow paint overspray through the shop and settle on the furniture. The painting was more profitable and took a far less variety of supplies so I went that direction. Then after a couple years the environmentalist go to screwing with the paint and it started pealing off. I finally ended up going with an automotive primer but it was too late. The customer found someone to do baked on enamel. This is why I'm doing home remodeling now.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I still do some refinishing work however I closed the refinishing shop in 1994. It got to the point where I couldn't get any help and I was paying $1200. a month for a rented building so I built a shop on my own land and got rid of the employees and building. I had the refinishing shop for ten years and I had one antique dealer that was sending more and more reproduction street lights and patio furniture to be painted. The two jobs were incompatible with each other. I would have furniture sitting in my shop drying and the wind would change directions and blow paint overspray through the shop and settle on the furniture. The painting was more profitable and took a far less variety of supplies so I went that direction. Then after a couple years the environmentalist go to screwing with the paint and it started pealing off. I finally ended up going with an automotive primer but it was too late. The customer found someone to do baked on enamel. This is why I'm doing home remodeling now.



That's a pretty interesting history Steve. Too many twists and turns for me. I hope the home remodeling is going well for you.

My history is way more straightforward with 32 years at IBM followed by a boring retirement. About 5 years ago a buddy said his daughter had a dresser that needed refinishing. And that got me going. I am now on project 120 and there have been many challenges along the way and you have helped me many times. I have logged over 100 questions to WoodWorkingTalk.com. For that I will always be grateful.

My crowning glory is the complete dining room set that I refinished for a customer. I had many questions of you as I went through these projects over an 18 month period. How I actually pulled off coordinating the colors is almost beyond me. But she was very pleased and I was delighted with the result.


Let's keep going.


Thank you again.


Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> If the table is down to bare wood killing the red would be so much easier. You could just start with the green dye and then stain the table. I have a table the natural color of the wood was extremely red. I used some bleach and then for color used only this dye, http://woodfinisherssource.com/cart...k-ultra-penetrating-stain-green-qt-m520-4136/ and the table has closer to a walnut color to it now. On raw wood the dye would be a lot easier to apply by hand.



Steve I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my green dye powder so that I can try to solve the mahogany red issue on the dining room table that I am refinishing.

Since I will be apply TransTint dark walnut LIQUID dye to the mahogany table top can I mix in some of the green dye POWDER to kill the red issue at the same time? I assume I would have to do some testing because I have no idea how much of the green that I should add. The red issue is minimal but it is there.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my green dye powder so that I can try to solve the mahogany red issue on the dining room table that I am refinishing.
> 
> Since I will be apply TransTint dark walnut LIQUID dye to the mahogany table top can I mix in some of the green dye POWDER to kill the red issue at the same time? I assume I would have to do some testing because I have no idea how much of the green that I should add. The red issue is minimal but it is there.
> 
> Gary


I don't have experience with that particular product but I think you can. If the dye powder will dissolve into the stain it will work. You may need to find a stain with a raw umber color to it rather than the walnut stain. The walnut stain has a certain amount of red itself to contend with. It may take more green powder than you have ordered to counter all of that.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't have experience with that particular product but I think you can. If the dye powder will dissolve into the stain it will work. You may need to find a stain with a raw umber color to it rather than the walnut stain. The walnut stain has a certain amount of red itself to contend with. It may take more green powder than you have ordered to counter all of that.



Since the green dye powder that I have ordered and the TransTint liquid dye are both water soluble they should mix together. 


I don't understand your reference to a raw umber color.


I guess some heavy duty testing will be required.


Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Since the green dye powder that I have ordered and the TransTint liquid dye are both water soluble they should mix together.
> 
> 
> I don't understand your reference to a raw umber color.
> ...


Yes, do a lot of testing. 

Raw umber is a brown without the color red in it. It's a pigment used in wood stain. At a basic level wood stain is just a medium such as linseed oil, pigment and a solvent to thin it. The medium holds the pigment together that would otherwise dry to dust and blow away.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes, do a lot of testing.
> 
> Raw umber is a brown without the color red in it. It's a pigment used in wood stain. At a basic level wood stain is just a medium such as linseed oil, pigment and a solvent to thin it. The medium holds the pigment together that would otherwise dry to dust and blow away.



Thank you again Steve.


Lots of testing to be done.


Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF, what color are you going for?

If it was too red before, than a little of the green dye should do the trick without using the wipe stain. 

I would worry more about using a filler to fill the grain prior to applying the dye and then the finish. It's easier to get a smooth finish that way. Mahogany leaves alot of open pore before a finish is applied and after it is striped. 

Also, it's tough to apply a dye by hand and apply it even over a large surface. Use a maroon scotch Brite to even out the dark areas the best you can.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> GAF, what color are you going for?
> 
> If it was too red before, than a little of the green dye should do the trick without using the wipe stain.
> 
> ...



The desired color is an espresso color using TransTint dark walnut dye. The color is being achieved but supressing the red hue when I top coat has been the issue. Hopefully the green dye currently being shipped to me will solve this.


I have experience with the open grain issue with mahogany and that will not get addressed in this project.


I also have experience (some of it bad) with applying dyes by hand. So far that has not been an issue but I have yet to attack the main table top.


Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Applying the dye by hand you have to apply it fast and wet and rub it in and quickly wipe off the excess. Would be a good idea to have a helper. Also good to wear exam gloves. The stuff is bad to stain your paws.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> The desired color is an espresso color using TransTint dark walnut dye. The color is being achieved but supressing the red hue when I top coat has been the issue. Hopefully the green dye currently being shipped to me will solve this.
> Gary



Wait, your using a dark walnut *dye* and not a walnut *wipe stain*? You can probably add a small amount of the green powder to the transtint to kill some of the red.....it will not take much!!!!! Make sure its fully mixed in before using. Test it.

I thought you was going to have to apply the green dye, then wipe on a walnut wipe stain.

For what its worth, I bet the Dark Mission Brown Transtint Dye would have worked best because its already less red straight out of the bottle. I guess you dont want to hear that now huh? >


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Applying the dye by hand you have to apply it fast and wet and rub it in and quickly wipe off the excess. Would be a good idea to have a helper. Also good to wear exam gloves. The stuff is bad to stain your paws.


Steve in fact I have had help from my wife a couple of times using water diluted dye because it does dry so fast.

And yes I always wear disposable gloves. Every time I get to go to a Harbor Freight I buy 5 boxes of them.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> Wait, your using a dark walnut *dye* and not a walnut *wipe stain*? You can probably add a small amount of the green powder to the transtint to kill some of the red.....it will not take much!!!!! Make sure its fully mixed in before using. Test it.
> 
> I thought you was going to have to apply the green dye, then wipe on a walnut wipe stain.
> 
> For what its worth, I bet the Dark Mission Brown Transtint Dye would have worked best because its already less red straight out of the bottle. I guess you dont want to hear that now huh? >


My green powder dye is arriving on Friday so testing will be done that day.

And it's not too late to do a test with Dark Mission Brown which I also have on hand. I am refinishing a dining room table and 6 chairs and a china cabinet all in the custom mixed espresso color. It is only the mahogany veneer that I am having the red issue with. So the currently mixed Dark Walnut dye will get used and not wasted.

Big testing day on Friday.

Thanks.

Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> My green powder dye is arriving on Friday so testing will be done that day.
> 
> And it's not too late to do a test with Dark Mission Brown which I also have on hand. I am refinishing a dining room table and 6 chairs and a china cabinet all in the custom mixed espresso color. It is only the mahogany veneer that I am having the red issue with. So the currently mixed Dark Walnut dye will get used and not wasted.
> 
> ...


I would try the dark mission brown before even touching the green powder!


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Applying the dye by hand you have to apply it fast and wet and rub it in and quickly wipe off the excess. Would be a good idea to have a helper. Also good to wear exam gloves. The stuff is bad to stain your paws.



Steve the main staining/dying was done this morning and both your suggestions were used. It went as well as I could have hoped. My experience with using dye on large areas has been bad.


Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> I would try the dark mission brown before even touching the green powder!



Testing was done and it's a good thing. Although the picture isn't the best it does demonstrate that the TransTint Dark Walnut (middle) and Dark Mission Brown (right) both allowed some red to show after being top coated.


The test on the left is Dark Walnut with some (very little) green dye mixed in and that did the trick. No red comes through when seen in person.


Whew!


SMALL QUESTION: Can I apply another coat of the dye today or should I wait overnight?


Thank to you and Steve for your continuing guidance through this.


Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> Testing was done and it's a good thing. Although the picture isn't the best it does demonstrate that the TransTint Dark Walnut (middle) and Dark Mission Brown (right) both allowed some red to show after being top coated.
> 
> 
> The test on the left is Dark Walnut with some (very little) green dye mixed in and that did the trick. No red comes through when seen in person.
> ...


It does not take alot of green to kill red. Too much green and you will go a dark, golden brown.

If you think you need another coat of dye, I would play it safe and wait 24 hours since applying by hand. Again, do a test piece to make sure its the color your looking for. Keep us posted.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> It does not take alot of green to kill red. Too much green and you will go a dark, golden brown.
> 
> If you think you need another coat of dye, I would play it safe and wait 24 hours since applying by hand. Again, do a test piece to make sure its the color your looking for. Keep us posted.



Well as an additional test I put a second coat of the dye on half of the table leaf. This morning I put mineral spirits on it to simulate top coating.


I did not like the result. In the picture below the piece on the right is the latest test. The other leaf half on the left shows the original problem with redness. Although the picture on the right is better there is still red.


I am going to put a second coat of dye on the main table today. Can I just add some more green dye and hope that it dulls the red hue a bit more?


Very, very frustrating.


Gary


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> Well as an additional test I put a second coat of the dye on half of the table leaf. This morning I put mineral spirits on it to simulate top coating.
> 
> 
> I did not like the result. In the picture below the piece on the right is the latest test. The other leaf half on the left shows the original problem with redness. Although the picture on the right is better there is still red.
> ...


Gary, I would not "hope" anything!

Sure you can add more green to kill the red, but I would test and get it where you want it before going straight to the project.

From the pics, the pic on the right seems to look like your going towards that golden brown color I was saying earlier in this post when you add green. If you add more green, you will end up even more yellow. Seems to me you actually need to now purple the stain off to get the color your looking for. Espresso is simply a black stain with yellow and a hint of red in it. But again, thats looking at a pic on a computer. Test, test, test!

In the future, you would be better purchasing black, red, and yellow dyes and formulate your own colors. To me, it's easier that way as you just keep tweaking between the 3 colors until you get the color you want. You can obtain almost any color using these 3 colors.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Eventually you will get to a point where adding more green will make the color green. I think you have overcome the red in the wood however you are putting more red back on with the red in the stain. I think a better solution would be to use a stain that doesn't have red in it.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> Gary, I would not "hope" anything!
> 
> Sure you can add more green to kill the red, but I would test and get it where you want it before going straight to the project.
> 
> ...


I have no other colors to do any tweaking with. In spite of tons of supplies in my workshop obviously I am still missing some. You'll see the final color in the next post.

Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Eventually you will get to a point where adding more green will make the color green. I think you have overcome the red in the wood however you are putting more red back on with the red in the stain. I think a better solution would be to use a stain that doesn't have red in it.


Steve I was unable to go any further on this situation so I started the top coating process and showed the result to the customer and he was okay with it. There is some red left but he was okay with it.

In the future I need to have colors on hand to be able to darken some oil based stain that would have solved the problem.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Steve I was unable to go any further on this situation so I started the top coating process and showed the result to the customer and he was okay with it. There is some red left but he was okay with it.
> 
> In the future I need to have colors on hand to be able to darken some oil based stain that would have solved the problem.
> 
> Gary


Yes that is the problem with being a furniture refinisher. You have to stock so many different supplies to accomplish the look of each job that comes along. Then what happens is you will buy supplies to do something and it sits on the shelf so many years until the next project comes along the stuff goes bad. In the even you ever get into alcohol based dyes they tend to put those in plastic bottles which can get hard and brittle to the point they bust open when you pick them up. I've had to transfer some to glass jars in order to keep them. Then the glass has to be wrapped with tape to keep the sun from fading. 

As far as tinting oil based stain unless you use minwax you can use a universal tinting color. With minwax you have to use a dye or intermix it to alter the color. Tinting color will go to the bottom of the can and won't mix in.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

GAF said:


> Steve I was unable to go any further on this situation so I started the top coating process and showed the result to the customer and he was okay with it. There is some red left but he was okay with it.
> 
> In the future I need to have colors on hand to be able to darken some oil based stain that would have solved the problem.
> 
> Gary


If you get alkyd base tints so you can use them to adjust wipe stains, it will save you a ton of trouble. Like I said, black, red, yellow, and white tints can save you a lot of time and headaches when trying to adjust color. It's worth it to bite the bullet and obtain them, along with a color wheel.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes that is the problem with being a furniture refinisher. You have to stock so many different supplies to accomplish the look of each job that comes along. Then what happens is you will buy supplies to do something and it sits on the shelf so many years until the next project comes along the stuff goes bad. In the even you ever get into alcohol based dyes they tend to put those in plastic bottles which can get hard and brittle to the point they bust open when you pick them up. I've had to transfer some to glass jars in order to keep them. Then the glass has to be wrapped with tape to keep the sun from fading.
> 
> As far as tinting oil based stain unless you use minwax you can use a universal tinting color. With minwax you have to use a dye or intermix it to alter the color. Tinting color will go to the bottom of the can and won't mix in.


Thanks for the details Steve. And special thanks for the heads up about MinWax because that is what I use. Does your comment mean that TransTint dye will mix with MinWax?


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> If you get alkyd base tints so you can use them to adjust wipe stains, it will save you a ton of trouble. Like I said, black, red, yellow, and white tints can save you a lot of time and headaches when trying to adjust color. It's worth it to bite the bullet and obtain them, along with a color wheel.


Thanks. I was given the color wheel awhile ago so that's a start.

Gary


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

GAF said:


> Thanks for the details Steve. And special thanks for the heads up about MinWax because that is what I use. Does your comment mean that TransTint dye will mix with MinWax?


I think the transtint would work in minwax but I don't really know as I don't use transtint. I know the ultra penetrating stain that Mohawk sells will mix with minwax as well as their blendal powder stains.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I think the transtint would work in minwax but I don't really know as I don't use transtint. I know the ultra penetrating stain that Mohawk sells will mix with minwax as well as their blendal powder stains.


Transtint will only go into water and solvent. I don't think it will go into minwax as minwax has penetrating oils in it, but you can try. 

That's where U-dyes come in handy as they will go into everything.


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I think the transtint would work in minwax but I don't really know as I don't use transtint. I know the ultra penetrating stain that Mohawk sells will mix with minwax as well as their blendal powder stains.



Gee maybe more supplies to buy for the workshop. LOL.


Thanks Steve.


Gary


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## GAF (Nov 4, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> Transtint will only go into water and solvent. I don't think it will go into minwax as minwax has penetrating oils in it, but you can try.
> 
> That's where U-dyes come in handy as they will go into everything.



Thanks for the heads up. Don't know U-dyes but I'll do some research.


I did a mini test today of TransTint black in MinWax Jacobean. It did mix okay but it didn't darken the result as much as I would have expected.


Gary


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