# Old fashion Pit saw



## daxinarian

Did the old fashioned Pit saws (the ones used to rip logs into planks) cut on both strokes or only on donward stroke? What was their tooth profile like?

Thanks,
Dax


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## Daren

They cut on both strokes. The sawyer (on top) had to guide the cut, usually snapped with a chalkline and cut on the upstroke too. At first blush the pitmans jobs sounds like it would be the worst, being down in the hole eating all the sawdust. But the downstroke cut using our own weight would make for easier sawing for sure. (still hard work though :sweatdrop:, and he didn't get a breeze if there was one)

I am not sure of the tooth profile, never saw one in person. But it would have cutters and rakers just like a 2 man bucking saw (or modern chainsaw) for making the cut and dragging the sawdust out of the kerf. I do know not only did the profiles evolve over time, heck they where used for 1000's of years. And too I would say a good portion of them where made by a smith, so each maker probably had their own style.

I have a couple pictures of one of my old 2 man bucking saws (5'-6") sharpened up and ready to go here someplace. I did a quick search and came up with nada, if I find it later I will add it. The cutters and rakers I would guess to be similar, but the set and grind would be different just like the difference between a cross cut handsaw and a ripping one since milling is ripping. And too I have a few of those 2 man bucking saws and none of the teeth/rakers are the same even on them, so that goes towards my thinking that the pitsaws will all be different too.


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## Daren

I found the picture in this thread where we were discussing stuff like this (actually motorizing a bucking saw and what-not) Bucking saw talk












There are 2 cutters, offset from each other with a raker between each pair of cutters. From that angle you can't see the tooth set, but the teeth with the shiney cutting face are bent away from the centerline of the saw. They are just a triangle with a flat back and a cutting bevel on one side. Make sense ?


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## BHOFM

Start a fight here!:no::no::no:

I have seen a pit saw in action. They only cut
on the down stroke. The top man guides the
saw and the pit man uses his weight to make
the cut. Then the top man just raises the saw
back up. It would be rough to bring it up and
cut at the same time. They were very wide and
some over ten feet.

I am sure people used what they had and a
large bucksaw would do the job.

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=202


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## Daren

BHOFM said:


> Start a fight here!:no:


No fight here. While I _have_ seen old photos and text with a whip saw used in a pit that cuts on both strokes...you're right the vast majority I found out trying to research and if not refute at least provide examples are like you pictured/described. I was thinking more of a 2 man frame saw (specifically made for milling), which is a ripping saw and cuts both ways. I tried to find a video and link it of Roy Underhill at a traditional (Swedish settlement era deal I think) milling lumber with another guy using a frame saw in a pit saw type setup...but that is neither here nor there. I concede most pit saws only cut on the down stroke. :surrender:


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## Gerry KIERNAN

Sounds like a tough way to make a living, or lumber. Glad they invented chainsaws, band saws, gang saws, etc. etc.

Gerry


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## daxinarian

Thanks for the helpfull info guys.

I guess what I am really after is a tooth profile for a rip saw that cuts on both strokes (much smaller scale than the pit saw, it was the only example I could think of at the time)


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## slabmaster

daxinarian said:


> Thanks for the helpfull info guys.
> 
> I guess what I am really after is a tooth profile for a rip saw that cuts on both strokes (much smaller scale than the pit saw, it was the only example I could think of at the time)


 Are you talking about a one man saw instead of a pitsaw?


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## daxinarian

Its going to be a smaller saw used for ripping boards/logs less than 12" accross.


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## slabmaster

Are you planning to motorizing this saw?


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## daxinarian

ummm, maybe... I don't mean to be obtuse, but public disclosure of an idea makes it more difficult to patent/license


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## MuseumWood

Pit sawing is hard work, but better to be in the pit. You may miss a breeze, but a pit dug below frost level tends to be pretty cool - close to the mean daily temp for wherever you are: 54 F in Maryland! In the winter 54 can feel pretty warm, especially if you are out of the wind!

The teeth I have seen are simple triangles filed to rip, and only on the down stroke to take advantage of the weight of the saw. I did get some hands-on at Williamsburg and was amazed at the rate of cutting. The top-man has to lift for each stroke and does most of the steering (his handle is even called a "tiller"). The pit man has to be able to loosen the box with his handles, slip it off and then catch the tip when the top man drops it down to him. With a good team it is almost without delay.


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## ACP

That looks like killer work. No wonder there were no fat people back in the day. Our Dairy Queens in town have a lot of decorations of old pictures of their first establishments and lines of people outside. Not a fatty in the bunch. It's almost like seeing the downfall of America captured in a picture. I often ponder this as I eat my large hot fudge sunday with extra hot fudge. I don't know anything about pit saws, but it is amazing what tools were used to build this great nation and the grit it took to do it.


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## Mizer

I have been involved in living history for quite a few years and one year we did a trestle sawing demonstration. It was a lot of work and we were not very experienced so needless to say we did not produce very much lumber. 
I have heard that when the modern sawmill replaced the pit saw that most pits were split up and sold as fence post holes.


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## Daren

Mizer said:


> I have heard that when the modern sawmill replaced the pit saw that most pits were split up and sold as fence post holes.


:laughing:


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## TexasTimbers

It's official. Mizer is one of us. That's some kind of funny right there.


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## MuseumWood

Mizer is quite correct. You have to use black locust posts, though. Splitting the pit is really tough so you want a wood that will last longer than the hole itself!

If I remember correctly, we were getting almost 2 inches of kerf per stroke in oak! And that was with a brand new-never been abused guy in the pit! The big thing is technique, right amount of pressure, cutting angle, lifting to help the top man. A sawyer had a lot to learn!


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## Martin Roy

Got a valuable information about old fashioned pit saw, from the pictured replies. It is very hard to work with it:blink:


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## cabinetman

daxinarian said:


> Its going to be a smaller saw used for ripping boards/logs less than 12" accross.



For a limited rip, a bow saw, will cut in both directions, but since it's a one man saw, it's on the push stroke.


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## cabinetman

One of my old threads. A good picture.


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## MuseumWood

There is a saw with the saw blade in a rectangular frame, and the blade is tensioned with screw fittings similar to a modern hacksaw. They may be called frame or sash saws. They can be very long with thin blades. I have seen them pictured and operated by two men. A thinner blade reduces the amount of wood removed and friction, which eases the work, but you have to deal with the frame and it's weight.


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## bmaddox

We have a seven and a half foot whip(Pitt) saw at Manskers Station. It's been used a few times with decent success. I would like to see it go into full use during our living History events, so that will be one of my Next projects... But It does have the top handle and apple wood box for the bottom, teeth are set at ,....1 tpi...
Now I just need to build the trestle for it


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## MuseumWood

Good on you!:thumbsup: Along with the trestle, you will need some dogs to hold the baulk while sawing. It is easier to hew the log into square or rectangular on the ground, rather than trying to balance on a log! Log rolling up on a trestle isn't an Olympic event, yet!

Those "next projects" are a bear, aren't they? My "next project" is rebuilding a circa 1900 workbench with vice and an abused surface at Steppingstone Museum!:laughing:


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## Texas Sawduster

*Gym*

Wow, looking at some of these pics, they did not need to go to the gym after or before work back then. The gym was the work.


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## bmaddox

MuseumWood said:


> Good on you!:thumbsup: Along with the trestle, you will need some dogs to hold the baulk while sawing. It is easier to hew the log into square or rectangular on the ground, rather than trying to balance on a log! Log rolling up on a trestle isn't an Olympic event, yet!
> 
> Those "next projects" are a bear, aren't they? My "next project" is rebuilding a circa 1900 workbench with vice and an abused surface at Steppingstone Museum!:laughing:


Hey Thanks. I did forge out some log dogs two years ago and always seem to draw a croud of on lookers and intrested by standers, saying..."So that's how they did that!". The watuga pattern Broad axe,and my recently aquired new pretty... A german made goose wing axe...WOW!. I cant wait to sharpen and use it. But anyway I digress... The notching then taking out the chunks in between,then smoothing up with a small broad hatchet if needed. but using the adze to smooth some what of a level surface to saw ...once again "Who needed a Gym".
I've recently purchased a "Framed saw" original from a local antique store, then went to my shop and fabricated a new frame,but have just with in the last two weeks completed a three week rebuild of our forge and bellows at the fort. Now I can hammer out some new hardware for this new saw. It's a prototype and if it works ,then I'll produce a few more . Hey it's a pleasure chatting with you keep in touch.


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## MuseumWood

Pleasure on my end! For the hewing, use a broad ax after you have notched and split off. Unless the timber is being directly used, I would go from the broad ax directly to the pit saw. I don't think the adze is needed. Use it to level after the timber becomes lumber!:thumbup:

Just make sure the edges beat anything from Gillette. Work smart, not hard!:laughing:


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## bmaddox

MuseumWood said:


> Pleasure on my end! For the hewing, use a broad ax after you have notched and split off. Unless the timber is being directly used, I would go from the broad ax directly to the pit saw. I don't think the adze is needed. Use it to level after the timber becomes lumber!:thumbup:
> 
> Just make sure the edges beat anything from Gillette. Work smart, not hard!:laughing:


Most Definitely,on the broad axe aspect. I like to use the adze and as many of my tools as I can just to keep my skill up to pare. "OH" on a sub note in my excited state of recently joining this group I relised too late that I had covered *three* subjects in one paragraph instead of finishing off any one in particular!... OMGosh!. My bad I'm sorry to all . The operations that we run here ,even though small ,it many times just involves myself and the demonstration at hand with little to no help from the outside.
I do use both of the older pattern broad axe's to smooth up logs but will cut most of the kerf's and out in between (Gird's,girt's?? sic) with my G.P. axe . Even though most of these settlers had perhaps just one axe ,and a lot could be accomplished by a skilled user.I prefer to keep my skill level up when I can by using the tools.
As far as the Pitt saw goes ,... the teeth are raked downward and at only 1 tooth per inch ( more kinda like 11/2 inchTPI) it only cuts on the downward stroke. What a work out though if it's dull!. I did read about a saw mill on the James river in 1622 that had I believe a three bladed sash type saw that was used to cut lumber,water driven of course ,But the pittsawn lumber and it's user's were still the prefered method of true cut lumber up untill after the Civil War. Proof once again that true craftsmanship was prefered over machine cut lumber.
I had read recently that 80 % of the power used in the eighteenth century was muscle power (Both human and animal) and that the other 20% was wind and water. No wonder all of people were skilled laborers.Laughing !. In any way I will be more observant in my posts and not ,.... typing half as fast as the brain is running!... 

One more thing, I did manage to forge out the two blade holders and a tensioning nut today for the prototype _Framed Saw_, this should be an intresting project for the next few afternoons. Are there any Spring pole lathe user's out there?


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## MuseumWood

The demonstrations at Steppingstone are much the same.:laughing: Getting volunteers with skills is far tougher than pulling teeth! Water power was Richmond and North for the James. You need some fall and the Coastal Plain has none!

Don't sweat it!:icon_cool: Express yourself, ask your questions, make suggestions, give answers! I doubt you'll hear from too many grammarians about your paragraph organization!:thumbsup: 

Pit saws are some pretty rough cutters! But, when you need to chew through a timber you need a Great White!

I suspect that if you check, the German name for your broad ax is a "Bearded Ax" ( look at it from the side - it fits). Goose wing is something the Englishers started because they didn't talk to the Germans! I think Henry Mercer made the mistake popular.


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## Mizer

bmaddox said:


> Are there any Spring pole lathe user's out there?


I have worked on a pole lathe a little.:yes:


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## Daren

bmaddox said:


> Are there any Spring pole lathe user's out there?


Robin has not been around for awhile...but he is not too shabby  http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/50-years-ago-yesterday-7224/


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## Daren

I just watched that video from the thread I linked again...still amazed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=JIgElQwMJpY


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## bmaddox

Yea that Guy has got it all together. I saw that video just over a month ago.I'm amazed at how easily he turns out his projects. My spring pole lathe is set up for High torque...(Short hickory pole mounted to the base of the lathe) instead of how he has his pole mounted from the ceiling. I can set mine up that same way ,but just haven't as of yet. After some of the wooden rakes and Yoke's are made ,...I'm thinking about building myself a continuous action lathe... We'll see.

Thanks any way for the link though,the "Tube" is a great place to search for ideas....


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## bmaddox

Mizer said:


> I have worked on a pole lathe a little.:yes:


 "Yep, and ya helped me build mine too!".


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## MuseumWood

I just re-read this thread! Pit saws to hewing to spring pole lathes! Almost as much fun as a month of the Woodwright's Shop! Thanks, folks.:thumbsup: I needed that!!!


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## bmaddox

Your welcome , It's been busy here at the historic site(Which is a Good thing), but to relax as of late I've been making wooden rake's and planning out how to make a different version of a wooden yoke for carrying wooden buckets,or brass,copper,which ever ones. But none the less keeping up with my skill set.


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## ObtainiumMaker

Hi Everyone,

I was referred to this thread by Manuka Jock after asking my newb question here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f26/whats-good-tool-resaw-valley-oak-hand-59837/

The more I think about it, the more it looks like I'm going to need a sawmill or a friend with a bandsaw to handle this, but I'd be grateful if anybody can recommend a good one-man saw that I could use to mill some 4' logs of valley oak. It may sound crazy, but this is a very special project (I'm building a flag case for a fallen soldier whose family lives in the area where the logs are from). Doing it by hand feels like the best way to do it. I'm not opposed to getting machines into the process though.


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## firemedic

I'll help you out - give me a couple hrs to get back to this.


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## Wema826

firemedic said:


> I'll help you out - give me a couple hrs to get back to this.


 
its been several hours past a couple hours, But those of us who know you know to expect this.......:wheelchair:


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## firemedic

Wema826 said:


> its been several hours past a couple hours, But those of us who know you know to expect this.......:wheelchair:


You're right... you're right. Couple more hrs still :laughing:


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## cabinetman

firemedic said:


> You're right... you're right. Couple more hrs still :laughing:


.

























.


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## ObtainiumMaker

firemedic said:


> You're right... you're right. Couple more hrs still :laughing:


Me and the logs...we aren't going anywhere. Take all the time you need :thumbsup: Thanks!


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## firemedic

Ok, I'm back. Sorry, I really am that busy. 

For starters why do you want to saw white oak? Split them in to 1/4's or 1/18's (even 1/16's) depending in the size and rive boards with a froe. The greener the better. 

This is the historically correct method because, putting aside the fact that saws were more difficult to obtain and maintain, it is the much quicker and less exhausting method. It also yields lumber of better quality as you rive the boards in this manner it is similar to rift sawing - only better. The resulting lumber has short straight annual rings making for very stable and very easy to work (hand tools) lumber.

If you are hell bent on sawing them and you have some metal working ability, call Highland Woodworking and order an ECE brand 5 tpi frame saw rip blade. They do not have them listed in print or on-line - only a slightly lesser quality one. 

Make a frame in any number of styles and go at it. This blade is not intended for green wood sawing again riving with a froe is superior. 

To rip green wood you will need a saw plat with deeper gullets and a greater set. - Hand saw could be tailored to do this. 

Thanks for dragging over to these threads, btw, after skimming through now I feel obliged to go back and comment on a few things.


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## ObtainiumMaker

Wow, thanks so much for this info! I don't have a froe but I know where I can get one, and that looks like the best option. It isn't so much sawing as just doing the whole process by hand that I was interested in. Again, thanks!


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## firemedic

ObtainiumMaker said:


> Wow, thanks so much for this info! I don't have a froe but I know where I can get one, and that looks like the best option. It isn't so much sawing as just doing the whole process by hand that I was interested in. Again, thanks!


You bet. A LOT of period furniture shows lumber yielded in this fashion. Being the resulting boards or essentially wedges you may have to joint x4 the boards for what you are building. 

That said period tables, chairs and others show that only three sides are jointed and smoothed for aprons and such and retain the wedge like shape - the back doesn't show so why put any energy into it.

Regards,

Jean


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## railaw

firemedic said:


> You bet. A LOT of period furniture shows lumber yielded in this fashion. Being the resulting boards or essentially wedges you may have to joint x4 the boards for what you are building. That said period tables, chairs and others show that only three sides are jointed and smoothed for aprons and such and retain the wedge like shape - the back doesn't show so why put any energy into it. Regards, Jean


There is an episode of the woodwrights shop (available free on pbs.org) that shows this process leading into making a small table with three sides finished on the apron. I think with peter folansbee. You might want to take a look for a visual aid.


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## Manuka Jock

ObtainiumMaker said:


> Wow, thanks so much for this info! I don't have a froe but I know where I can get one, and that looks like the best option. It isn't so much sawing as just doing the whole process by hand that I was interested in. Again, thanks!


 This afternoon in the Dr's waiting room I picked up a magazine 'cos the word 'Bodger' leapt off the cover at me .
He made his froe out of a leaf spring from a tractor .
I might try that one myself .


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## firemedic

railaw said:


> There is an episode of the woodwrights shop (available free on pbs.org) that shows this process leading into making a small table with three sides finished on the apron. I think with peter folansbee. You might want to take a look for a visual aid.



I do recall that episode and if Follansbee is involved it's sure to be even better than usual. Peter knows his stuff and has a lot more practice with riving lumber than anyone else I know.


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## Wema826

firemedic said:


> I do recall that episode and if Follansbee is involved it's sure to be even better than usual. Peter knows his stuff and has a lot more practice with riving lumber than anyone else I know.


 
If you have on demand or DVR the wood wrights shop. peter and roy did a blanket chest on this season using these methods.


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