# Sanding Red Oak



## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

I am working on red oak cabinate and would like to hear suggestions on how to sand it.

Many thanks!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I guess I've got nothing but questions.

Is the cabinet solid wood or plywood?
If solid wood is the wood flat and level or is it glue ups?
Are you going to stain it light or dark?
What equipment to you have to sand with?


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I guess I've got nothing but questions.
> 
> Is the cabinet solid wood or plywood?
> If solid wood is the wood flat and level or is it glue ups?
> ...


Thanks for questions. 
they are solid wood.
they are already flat.
will stain it light.
and i have Random Orbit Sander.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you want the wood to look really nice and since it is solid wood I would start with sanding it with 80 grit sandpaper on your orbital sander. Then wipe it with a damp cloth to raise the grain and let dry. Then sand it again with 120 grit paper and wet again. Then sand it a final time with 180 grit paper. Of course with an orbital sander you would need to sand the inside corners of the cabinet by hand. If you are going to stain it and finish it with a chemical coating you are good to go at this point. If you are going to use an oil finish I would continue to go in steps until you sand it with 400 grit paper. Also on oak don't use a wood conditioner. If you are looking for quick and easy, omit wetting the wood and go from 80 grit paper to 120 grit paper and stain and finish it. 

If you were trying to finish it dark you wouldn't sand it as fine. The finer you sand it the harder it is to stain it dark. You would have to use a dye on it to get it dark.

The reason I asked about plywood is the veneer on today's plywood is so thin you would probably sand through it with 80 grit paper and should start with a finer grit paper.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

Steve

Thanks for the detail reply! 
Following is my finishing plan 

1) Stain with TransTint Dark Vintage Maple diluted at 1 oz dye to 2 qt. water 
2) Apply one coat General Finishes SealACell Sealer. Let dry one day and scuff sand with 320 grit 
3) Apply Bartley Walnut Gel Stain. Wipe clean and let dry overnight. 
4) Apply 2 coats General Finishes ArmRSeal Satin Finish. 

Any suggestions


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## gideon (May 26, 2010)

i sand with the ros starting at 120. starting at 80 tends to leave swirlies.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> Steve
> 
> Thanks for the detail reply!
> Following is my finishing plan
> ...


I don't use the products you have listed so I looked up what they were and your finish schedule sounds reasonable. I would also sand lightly between the two coats of ArmRSeal Satin. When you are done if the finish is not smooth enough to your liking there is no reason you can't sand and put a third coat on.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Some "iffy" statements about this being made here, suggestions that may not be as correct for the actual job as would be needed, no ones wrong per se', anything can work, but you should really post pics of the cabinet so everyone has a clear visual conception of what the cabinet is and it's construction or obstacles that may need to be handled in a different way. 

There may be no changes to info offered so far or maybe much more, since there is more to go buy ok?:yes:

Right now for instance as i read, there is no mention of what type or style of doors and drawers the cabinet has -[raised panel, shaker, flat modern, etc,] this alone could change ones mind about the preferences of sanding methods to be used, since a ROS is not capable in and of itself of sanding any profiles, only flat surfaces that are unobstructed. 

again, i don't read if this is a new cabinet or something that is being re-finished, if new, and purchased raw wood, from a manufacturer, it is most likely already sanded to around 120- 150 grit or possibly finer. If refinishing, the same would also hold true for the most part. Much time can be saved and useless time prevented being spent sanding with courser grits when it's already at a more finely sanded state to begin with, unless for example there is new damages to remove. and even then since it's not like its a customers but yours, spending a little more time with finer grits and avoiding having to sand out coarser sanding marks with heavier grits, will save time and money, in the long run.

As Steve mentioned already, an ROS won't get into corners, you may find it more to your advantage to buy a quarter pad square sander to do those operations, which only run 50 bucks or so, or optionally, if possible, remove the back so you don't have obstructed areas the ROS can't sand. 

Either way photos will enlighten us more on what any concerns not being taken into consideration might still be or procedures to make it less difficult to obtain good final results.

To many times I and others start giving out blind info without seeing or asking to see pics to get a solid idea of what really needs to be done, most of the time were pretty good about it, but sometimes, when not asking for pics, the info assumes things not known for sure, and has one doing more work than necessary in the long run.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks for long posting. Actually I am building this http://plansnow.com/corcabnt.html using red oak. I should tell this in my first posting.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> Thanks for long posting. Actually I am building this http://plansnow.com/corcabnt.html using red oak. I should tell this in my first posting.


Ok, so when you say its all flat work i can see why. So your making all the doors and everything else from scratch is that correct, nothing is pre-assembled? nothing routered. your doing it all?

If so, then all we need to know is how flat and smooth it is from where you purchased your wood from - example: did they sand it to a final grit of 120/150/220/etc. From that it is easily deduced unless there is handling damage, what really needs to be done at this point maybe as little as one grit of paper.depending on how good your cabinet making and assembly skills are. This is assuming that you bought it the thickness and sizes you need to begin with.

Get back with what you find out ok?


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

OK, I am making it all by myself using 4/4 red oak lumber 4ds. I will sand it before assemble it.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

zlzhao said:


> OK, I am making it all by myself using 4/4 red oak lumber 4ds. I will sand it before assemble it.


Ok, does that include the door parts also? normally doors are not sanded till after glueing and assembly, though it's good to sand the panels before installing ok? the rest should be fine outside of moldings which will require hand sanding. I also am wondering about the back? Is that 4/4? lol, i'm sure you must have either bought 1/4 " or something thinner correct?

Again on the doors, it is best to stain/dye the panels and at least a coat of clear before actually glueing up the doors, this way any fluctuations in movement [contraction or expansion] will not show unstained or barewood.

also is this your first big project?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> OK, I am making it all by myself using 4/4 red oak lumber 4ds. I will sand it before assemble it.


When you say "4ds" are you meaning S4S? Are you planning to use plywood for cabinet components like the ends, floor, top, and shelves, and solid wood for door frames and face frames?










 







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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

typo, it is D4S, for everything but back pannel


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> typo, it is D4S, for everything but back pannel



What is D4S?









 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> What is D4S?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dimensioned 4 sides


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

D4S is the same terminology as S4S, but not in the USA. But...what is 4/4...door frames, et.al.? Is the whole cabinet to made with 4/4 (1 inch) thick lumber except for the back? And, who is doing the milling?

I wouldn't advise doing that as it's asking for E&C problems. Red Oak plywood would be a better more stable panel than solid wood.









 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> D4S is the same terminology as S4S, but not in the USA. But...what is 4/4...door frames, et.al.? Is the whole cabinet to made with 4/4 (1 inch) thick lumber except for the back? And, who is doing the milling?
> 
> I wouldn't advise doing that as it's asking for E&C problems. Red Oak plywood would be a better more stable panel than solid wood.
> 
> ...


From what i read, it's all 4/4 except back. I think hes had it milled already before buying.

I'm sure he will be back to say. Or........... maybe not. 

If you had previously known D4S was the same as S4S then why ask the question to begin with?

Seems strange does it not? Doing some quick googleing are we?

The fact is that designation is used not only else where but right here.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> today's plywood is so thin you would probably sand through it with 80 grit paper and should start with a finer grit paper.

Correct. The top and bottom veneers are very thin. The plywood manufacturer sands plywood to about 180 grit. There is no need to sand with anything more coarse. In fact the best process to follow is to only lightly hand sand with 180 grit mounted on a felt or rubber covered sanding pad. Sand in the direction of the grain. Then get the first two coats of finish on the surface, let them dry 48 hours and then hand sand the surface with 320 grit paper. This way you are sanding the finish, not the veneer and will have greatly reduced the risk of a sand through.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> D4S is the same terminology as S4S, but not in the USA. But...what is 4/4...door frames, et.al.? Is the whole cabinet to made with 4/4 (1 inch) thick lumber except for the back? And, who is doing the milling?
> 
> I wouldn't advise doing that as it's asking for E&C problems. Red Oak plywood would be a better more stable panel than solid wood.
> 
> ...


the lumber company M.L.Condon Co. in New York use D4S, "Oak -red D4S Stock" in their catalog


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

chemmy said:


> Ok, does that include the door parts also? normally doors are not sanded till after glueing and assembly, though it's good to sand the panels before installing ok? the rest should be fine outside of moldings which will require hand sanding. I also am wondering about the back? Is that 4/4? lol, i'm sure you must have either bought 1/4 " or something thinner correct?
> 
> Again on the doors, it is best to stain/dye the panels and at least a coat of clear before actually glueing up the doors, this way any fluctuations in movement [contraction or expansion] will not show unstained or barewood.
> 
> also is this your first big project?


Thanks for the suggestion, yes, it is my first big project and I did some modification with the plan (let me upload a pic later on), as I do not want to use any wood screw. For the back pannel, i still thinking, again, do not want to use nails as suggested in original plan.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> If you had previously known D4S was the same as S4S then why ask the question to begin with?


I guess you didn't read the post:


cabinetman said:


> But...*what is 4/4*...door frames, et.al.? Is the whole cabinet to made with 4/4 (1 inch) thick lumber except for the back? And, who is doing the milling?











 









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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

yes it is whole cabinet with 4/4 lumber except for the back. I was thinking resaw 4/4 to half inch to make back pannel, but I do not have bandsaw, still thinking what is best way for the back pannel.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> yes it is whole cabinet with 4/4 lumber except for the back. I was thinking resaw 4/4 to half inch to make back pannel, but I do not have bandsaw, still thinking what is best way for the back pannel.



My suggestion would be to use 1/4" Red Oak Plywood for the back. If the back needs to be more structural, or needs to be installed to the wall through the back to use 1/2" Red Oak plywood. In one of my previous posts, I made this suggestion about using lumber for the cabinet.



cabinetman said:


> I wouldn't advise doing that as it's asking for E&C problems. Red Oak plywood (3/4") would be a better more stable panel than solid wood.











 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> What is D4S?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is what i read - not what your stating i did not read.

You can not pose this question and then come back acting as if you already knew what it meant and then still be wrong as it not being a Us/American designation.

http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/lum_abbrev.htm

C'mon, C'man, ignorance is not a sin, heck were all ignorant, you didn't know something, big deal, theres millions of things i don't know either even in my own field, as well as everyone else, but trying to gloss over it with your further replies cast doubts on your willingness to admit your ignorance to others to save face over a trivial matter, and that cast doubts on how one is really to be percieved and thought of by others. Not a good thing.

That would have been like me when i asked about what some plastic part on a webber grill that i didn't know about, and bill getting back to me with the explanation, having then pretend in some way to act like i knew what it was all along, instead of just thanking him and moving on.

Trying to hide something common to mankind in general with such methodology as your trying to use is senseless and shows a lack of being able to accept your own imperfections.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> This is what i read - not what your stating i did not read.


 What you're doing again is hijacking a thread. 










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

:thumbdown: unbelieveable:thumbdown:

even the poster has let you know the wood was purchased here in New york with that designation and yet your unwilling to admit your ignorance. 

enough said you will hear nothing more on this matter from me.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

It seems to me that most my questions ends up with discussing with something else


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> It seems to me that most my questions ends up with discussing with something else



Sorry you got caught in someone's agenda. 










 







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## Brink (Nov 22, 2010)

zlzhao said:


> It seems to me that most my questions ends up with discussing with something else


I'm hoping this isn't going to be instance #3.

Zlzhao, I can resaw pieces if you want a solid back, even ship lap if you like. Ply does have some benefits, though.


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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

Brink said:


> I'm hoping this isn't going to be instance #3.
> 
> Zlzhao, I can resaw pieces if you want a solid back, even ship lap if you like. Ply does have some benefits, though.


Hi, Brink

Thanks a lot for your offering. It is really appreciate that if you can teach me know to make ship lap! Let me call you later on 

Cheers,

Liangzhao


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> Thanks a lot for your offering. It is really appreciate that if you can teach me know to make ship lap! Let me call you later on
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Liangzhao


Shiplap is a machining detail to be done on each section that looks like this. Halflap is a machining detail that's done that looks like this. The machining can be done on either solid wood or plywood. 

I've suggested using plywood for the cabinet and the back.










 







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## sanguo (Mar 12, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Shiplap is a machining detail to be done on each section that looks like this. Halflap is a machining detail that's done that looks like this. The machining can be done on either solid wood or plywood.
> 
> I've suggested using plywood for the cabinet and the back.
> 
> ...


Any reason for using plywood? I really like what sticky does on their bookcase. http://www.stickley.com/TheStickleyDifference.cfm?SubPgName=ConstructionFeatures&MoreTxt=7


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

zlzhao said:


> Any reason for using plywood? I really like what sticky does on their bookcase. http://www.stickley.com/TheStickleyDifference.cfm?SubPgName=ConstructionFeatures&MoreTxt=7


A one piece plywood back makes for a squared opening, and is stable. It doesn't look like a ship lapped back with solid wood. If you like that look, then that's what you should do.










 









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