# Walnut Dining Table - Suggestions needed



## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

I am a novice woodworker and I have been able to make some pretty good furniture when I take my time on the details. My brother is building a new house and wants me to build him a new dining room table for his house. He sent me the following picture of what he would like, dimensions 8' by 44" solid walnut.










Now to the questions:

1) Is it possible to do this with 4/4 or 6/4 Walnut for the top and edge it to make the top look thicker? I like the look but don't really want to try and manhandle a 8/4 top around my garage by myself. I am worried that if I edge a narrower top to make it look thicker it won't allow for wood movement and split apart.

2) If I do use 8/4 Walnut is it a good idea to add a breadboard end to cover up the end grain, or would it look fine without one?

3) for the leg pieces I am thinking I will have to laminate some wood to get the dimensions I need, is that an acceptable method for doing the base? I don't have access to anything over 8/4 Walnut here in South Dakota.

I have done some nice smaller pieces for myself in the past but nothing of this scale. I have most of the tools I need except a jointer. Even if I get one for this project it will only be a 6" jointer because everything else is out of my current budget. For the larger pieces I was going to pay a local cabinet shop to joint them for me.

Thanks


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

If you are going to solid wood edge the table top, I would use a veneer plywood for the field. :smile:


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

mdntrdr said:


> If you are going to solid wood edge the table top, I would use a veneer plywood for the field. :smile:


From both a cost and ease of build perspective that would be the way to go, my question is... would that hold up for a VERY long time. Basically he wants me to build it so it's not some cheap veneer table that will look terrible after a few years of abuse from his kids.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Using 8/4 will be a lot less complicated, you will just need a bit of muscle helpto move it.

For using a skirt around the top to do it in ply with Walnut veneer, I would send the top out for manufacture, as you need equipment not available to the small shop.

To use Walnut veneered plywood, you need more than one sheet and the joints presents a problem.

Solid wood with a skirt is not possible across the grain, due to wood movement.

No problem laminating the legs.

Suggest you look at material costs, the Walnut only may be far North of just purchasing the piece in the picture.


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

WillemJM said:


> Using 8/4 will be a lot less complicated, you will just need a bit of muscle helpto move it.
> 
> For using a skirt around the top to do it in ply with Walnut veneer, I would send the top out for manufacture, as you need equipment not available to the small shop.
> 
> ...


I have been looking at the cost, I just don't know how much I need to estimate in for waste. In other construction areas the waste percentage is between 10%-20%. For the exact board feet that I need of 8/4 it will be $550 plus tax, I still need to figure out the cut list for the base to get the whole table.

Around here 8/4 runs $9.09 from my supplier (only one in town), 6/4 - $6.80, 4/4 $6.60. They have common 4/4 for $3.83 as well so I might be able to find some nice pieces of that for some of the base.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Jordan_SD said:


> I have been looking at the cost, I just don't know how much I need to estimate in for waste. In other construction areas the waste percentage is between 10%-20%. For the exact board feet that I need of 8/4 it will be $550 plus tax, I still need to figure out the cut list for the base to get the whole table.
> 
> Around here 8/4 runs $9.09 from my supplier (only one in town), 6/4 - $6.80, 4/4 $6.60. They have common 4/4 for $3.83 as well so I might be able to find some nice pieces of that for some of the base.


I may have over-estimated the length of the top?

If you can do it within 8' length, Walnut ply is still an option GS2 with a combi core is still an option +- $160

$550, for the top is not bad.

Will you do the chairs as well?


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Jordan_SD said:


> Basically he wants me to build it so it's not some cheap veneer table


Then don't buy cheap veneer plywood, get the good stuff. :smile:


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

WillemJM said:


> I may have over-estimated the length of the top?
> 
> If you can do it within 8' length, Walnut ply is still an option GS2 with a combi core is still an option +- $160
> 
> ...


The table I am going to build will be 8' by 44", and no I won't be doing chairs. The commision for the project is just too low to sink that much time into chairs (i.e. $0 ). Actually I don't want to attempt chairs at this point with my current woodworking skill. 

If I decide to build it my brother will pick up the costs for all materials but I don't expect anything in terms of payment. I do this as a hobby, plus he is a general contractor and I am going to be building a new house in a few years so I am sure I will get repaid when he helps me with my new house.

For now the table and size of materials looks pretty daunting, so it is still up in the air if I actually want to attempt it.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

You could do the top in solid lumber glued up. If you used 8/4, you may not need a built up edge. If you use a lesser thickness, a solid wood edging can be glued to the long edges, and breadboard ends can be used. They don't have to be wide. If your build up edges are 6/4, use it for the BB ends.

If you went with a plywood, you can glue the edging to the plywood.








 







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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

From what I can see in the picture the grain of the top runs across the width of the table. It would be more stable if you used plywood, preferably lumber core plywood and band it with solid wood. Another option if you wanted solid wood you could make the top out of 4/4 and glue a piece of 8/4 under it as long as the grain was running the same direction. Depending on what the lumber surfaces to you could get 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" thickness for the top. 

I don't believe I've ever seen a breadboard end on a walnut table. Walnut is usually a more formal wood where the breadboard ends are normally used on a country style furniture. 

It would be acceptable to laminate wood for the legs and base. Use the 8/4 to minimize the seams. Also grain match the wood you are using so once glued it's difficult to tell you laminated them.


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> From what I can see in the picture the grain of the top runs across the width of the table. It would be more stable if you used plywood, preferably lumber core plywood and band it with solid wood. Another option if you wanted solid wood you could make the top out of 4/4 and glue a piece of 8/4 under it as long as the grain was running the same direction. Depending on what the lumber surfaces to you could get 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" thickness for the top.
> 
> I don't believe I've ever seen a breadboard end on a walnut table. Walnut is usually a more formal wood where the breadboard ends are normally used on a country style furniture.
> 
> It would be acceptable to laminate wood for the legs and base. Use the 8/4 to minimize the seams. Also grain match the wood you are using so once glued it's difficult to tell you laminated them.


Yeah, as long as I can get the right lumber I would run the grain lengthwise. The problem I see with using 4/4 for the top and gluing 8/4 below is that I think on the end grain it would be pretty noticeable. On the sides (presuming grain lengthwise) I think that would be a good idea to get the look, but on the end I don't know how it would look.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you matched the wood for grain and color gluing 8/4 under it would hardly be noticable initially. Over time with wood movement the glue line would show a little but that wouldn't be difficult to fix.


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> If you matched the wood for grain and color gluing 8/4 under it would hardly be noticable initially. Over time with wood movement the glue line would show a little but that wouldn't be difficult to fix.


So, this table will be solid walnut not a plywood field. 4/4 top with 6/4 edging most likely. 

On the side I plan to either glue flush underneath the top or I can glue right onto the edge of the top more like a edging.

The endcap is where I am still trying to figure out exactly what to do. I have a couple of ideas that I am throwing around that I would like to see if anyone has an opinion on. One option is to run a 6/4 edge band on the end with the grain running side to side (main table top will be running end to end). Thinking about doing a tongue and groove or sliding dovetail on the end and locking the center in with a dowel so the sides of the endcap can expand.

The other thought is to glue up another panel with the grain running the same direction as the top and basically glue that underneath the main top on the end. This would keep the grain all running the same direction but I am worried about the look and getting it to fit perfectly to minimize some of the glue up lines.

Are either of these good ideas? or is there something else out there that I could do. I tried to talk my brother into just a 4/4 top but he really wants the "thick" look.


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## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

*one idea*

If you glue up the top a foot longer, you can cut off 6" from each end and fold it under to get grain and color match. If you have wide enough for each side cut a strip from each board and fold it under. Get a book from James Krenov where he shows how to cut a board into veneer strips but keeps the edges and ends to match the final top.

Jack


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

jacko9 said:


> If you glue up the top a foot longer, you can cut off 6" from each end and fold it under to get grain and color match. If you have wide enough for each side cut a strip from each board and fold it under. Get a book from James Krenov where he shows how to cut a board into veneer strips but keeps the edges and ends to match the final top.
> 
> Jack


I actually found a post a little while ago talking about the same thing. seems like this would be the best way to do it. Just make the table wider and longer than needed, trim off ends then sides, fold under and attach.

SO much simpler than all the other ways I have been trying to figure out. Thanks.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jordan_SD said:


> So, this table will be solid walnut not a plywood field. 4/4 top with 6/4 edging most likely.
> 
> On the side I plan to either glue flush underneath the top or I can glue right onto the edge of the top more like a edging.
> 
> ...


Running the board on the end with the grain direction going side to side is what is called a breadboard end. It would work but you screw it on from the underside running the screws through the tenon. Where the screws go through the tenon you elongate the holes to allow for wood movement. It more or less pulls both sides of the groove together pinching the tenon between. It's tight but not so tight that it won't let the wood move. If you doweled the ends and the top shrank it would cause the pry the boards off the sides. I've seen many 100 year old tables with a breadboard end sticking 1/8" out each side. Structurally the top was in great condition. All that was needed is to trim the 1/8" off and touch up the finish, an easy fix. 

Plan B to glue some cross grain wood underneath would also work however wood is going to move so the joints between the boards and the glue line between the wood added under the top will eventually show. Often it's so slight you have to look hard to see it but it will show. Possibly in 10 to 15 years the glue line would be slightly white from movement damage to the finish. If it was finished with lacquer, wetting it with lacquer thinner and rubbing the finish out would probably fix it. Worst case scenario would be to sand the finish completely off just the ends and put a new finish on it. Not exactly an easy fix but not major either.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Using plywood for a walnut table makes me want to scream........walnut should be solid wood.....just my opinion....


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> Using plywood for a walnut table makes me want to scream........walnut should be solid wood.....just my opinion....


Maybe he could upgrade to lumber core. :laughing:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Returning the end of the boards down will take care of any end grain. Might look the best. You'll still have the corners to do, whether you miter the short to the long pieces (end to the side).








 








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## mrcanterbury (May 7, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> Using plywood for a walnut table makes me want to scream........walnut should be solid wood.....just my opinion....


Thank you Ryan. I was thinking the same thing while I was reading.


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## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> Returning the end of the boards down will take care of any end grain. Might look the best. You'll still have the corners to do, whether you miter the short to the long pieces (end to the side).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The two side boards that you are going to fold over are full length and the edge piece that is flipped under is sandwiched between the two full length boards and glued up as an assembly. This eliminates the need for a miter joint. To keep everything in plane I use my Festool Domino Joiner to keep all of the pieces in the correct plane.

Jack


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

jacko9 said:


> The two side boards that you are going to fold over are full length and the edge piece that is flipped under is sandwiched between the two full length boards and glued up as an assembly. This eliminates the need for a miter joint. To keep everything in plane I use my Festool Domino Joiner to keep all of the pieces in the correct plane.
> 
> Jack


Makes sense thanks. Now you just need to give me your Festool Domino :icon_smile: I will use something, probably lots of clamps and maybe some biscuits to help keep things inline while the glue dries.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jacko9 said:


> The two side boards that you are going to fold over are full length and the edge piece that is flipped under is sandwiched between the two full length boards and glued up as an assembly. This eliminates the need for a miter joint. To keep everything in plane I use my Festool Domino Joiner to keep all of the pieces in the correct plane.
> 
> Jack


Maybe I'm missing something. The end boards are folded down to form a thicker looking apron. The end boards have a build up (which is mitered on it's length), and when that buildup reaches the corner (the folded down ends) you can't have a butt joint there... a miter. IOW, the ends and sides to the end boards form the build up appearance. At least, that's what I'm envisioning.








 








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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

The way I see it is, cut the ends off the table first, then cut the sides off which makes them the same length as the top. Glue them underneath the edge. Then that leaves you with an end grain cavity along the ends of the table. Cut off the edges of the ends you cut off and fit it into the space.

At least that is what I am thinking in my simple mind


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jordan_SD said:


> The way I see it is, cut the ends off the table first, then cut the sides off which makes them the same length as the top. Glue them underneath the edge. Then that leaves you with an end grain cavity along the ends of the table. Cut off the edges of the ends you cut off and fit it into the space.
> 
> At least that is what I am thinking in my simple mind


 I think you are not visulizing what cabineman is suggesting. The way I see it he is suggesting that you waterfall the ends kind of like this table. It's a reasonable way of making the ends without all the wood movement problems with gluing wood under the top. If you just don't like the look then about the only thing you can do is glue wood under the top.


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## Civilian (Jul 6, 2013)

*8/4 #2 Pine Table 44" x 8ft*

Here is an alternate thought.

My table is being finished right now and hence not actually sitting properly on the legs. Legs were varnished first and now the table top is being varnished.

Yes, 8/4 solid table top at 6 ft is a bear to handle. Two people is needed. However during the build stage I was able to flip it over for a while. 8/4 pine was kiln dried.

Problems: Table top glued up in July in Northern Michigan. I added the vertical side pieces to give the table a more massive look. The vertical sides are just same material cut narrower and then rounded. They are on the breadboards also running in the same direction. Breadboard ends are attached solid to home made slides. Brought table home from cold shop after Christmas into warm house to finish. Last week I noticed the table was narrower then the breadboards by about a 1/16" or so on each end, total 1/8" to 3/32". I will have to remove the breadboards after finishing and elongate the screw holes to allow for easier pullout. When the table came into the house, I bees waxed the slides and had easy movement. Now I don't. The pictures show the way I mitered the ends to hide the end grain. The table will set in cross supports that need to be opened up also for movement. The top will be held on by "z" brackets. But the tables and the legs are massive which is what I wanted, but it will make moving the table an unlikely prospect.

I don't know the weight difference between pine and walnut. I imagine the walnut will be much heavier. Have help when you do need to move your table.

The first picture is a close up of the 12" leaf.

Jon
Northern Michigan


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Jordan_SD said:


> The way I see it is, cut the ends off the table first, then cut the sides off which makes them the same length as the top. * Glue them underneath the edge*. Then that leaves you with an end grain cavity along the ends of the table. Cut off the edges of the ends you cut off and fit it into the space.
> 
> At least that is what I am thinking in my simple mind


If you do that, you'll have the edge of the top showing, because you installed the apron under the top. 

What I'm thinking... 

Cut the two end long boards long enough to get the fold over lengths (which will amount to the apron build up dimension).

Cut them wide enough to account for cutting off a long rip to be the apron build up on the long sides.

Miter the long boards, and the apron cutoff to be glued back on.

Cut off the two ends from the long boards, and miter cut the ends of the long boards and the apron pieces to be glued back on. 

Miter the vertical sides where the apron end piece meets the end of the apron long piece.

So, you will have a continuous grain on top and down the ends (the apron), and continuous grain on the top along the long edge onto the apron build up pieces.








 








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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

I had to read that a few times (more than I care to admit!) to get what you were describing. I must say that if I can pull that off it would be an amazing look.

Basically continuing the grain onto the side and the ends. I really like this idea. If I have time this evening I will model that up in sketchup and post an image back so I can be sure of what you are talking about, but I am 90% certain I understand it. I think I better make sure I can get a nice 45 with my circular saw because that is the only way I see mitering the table itself, the apron pieces can be handled on the TS and miter saw.


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## Jordan_SD (Jun 14, 2013)

So I think I got it. Here is an image of what I think the aprons and table need to be cut at, pretty hard to actually get a picture to show all the angles correctly. The second image is just the table that I am going to build at this point.


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