# First Project - Farmhouse Dining Table



## T&Rpattonsawmill (Oct 20, 2010)

Hi, 

My husband and I recently bought a sawmill. While he is cutting orders we have tons of boards and wood that we don't know what to do with. I decided to take on a wood building project and loved every minute of it. I found this design for a farmhouse dining table. I built it out of cherry and although this is unfinished, I am getting ready to stain it an old cherry color. I'm a published writer and think I just found my new passion. I'd love any critiques on this so I can learn or maybe some suggestions of other projects I could try. Thanks!!!


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Hard to critique it with only one angle especially that one and in that light, but from what I can see it looks great. Is this your first or one of your first projects? I personally am not fond of stain in 98% of applications but that's just me. If you're going for the weathered/antique look it's almost unavoidable I guess. 

I'm also interested in hearing about your writing if you ever get the notion to, um, write about your writing. 

Welcome to the forum. 






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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yeah...better pictures and welcome*

Is that workshop also your dining room/computer area, coffee table?  Just funnin' with Ya. A writer of what? :blink: Fill us in.
For those of us who don't write well, we can use the emotican's here, they are free to all.  bill


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## T&Rpattonsawmill (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks! I will have to devote another post to my writing sometime! Here are some more pics of the project in process. Like I said, woodworking is something I'd really like to get into.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Your table needs a lot more lateral support. As it stands it will not hold up to much abuse and I'm saying that not knowing how you fastened the legs to the aprons. But no matter how you did it, the aprons are too narrow to be able to give the support necessary. 


I'll draw it out a few options for you later for you if you like have a deadline looming on me right now. 






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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You posted the pictures of the underneath..*

Which is a good thing since it shows the "structure".
Since you are just getting into woodworking I would like to suggest that there are 4 basic parts to it.
Design, Materials, Processes and Structure.
How it looks, what it's made of, how you made it and the mechanics and physics of it.
Design, Materials and Processes are subjective to some extent.
The Structure, less so. Weight is weight and forces are forces, and there no getting around them. A long board will only span a certain length before it will sag/deflect by itself or under a load.
Certain woods are more resistant to deflection than others and certainly thickness plays a role. A long board laid on edge will span a much greater length without deflecting than when it's laid flat. The wider the board the less it will deflect when on edge. Why am I ranting about all this, you ask.
Your table is quite long and the top boards are laid flat. The sides/ boards are "on edge" and they are not very wide...4" maybe? Your cross braces are 2" square or so? They add very little if at all to the deflection of the top and in fact may add unnecessary weight. There are more than you need to keep the top together and they don't serve any other function structurally. A center board "on edge would add more strength. A thicker side board would add more strength. A "wider or deeper" side board would add more strength.
So, in order to keep things from bending/deflecting the structure must be thought out before hand. 
Sometimes plans will contain the basic dimensions, but they must be adapted to your design, length, width etc. Over time you just come to know what will work and what didn't work from previous trails and successes. With age comes experience so to speak. I'm not saying what you have made won't work or will sag over it's life time, but those are things to consider when making a piece of furniture for the future.
Even a farmhouse table should stand the test of time. So, I'll leave you with those ideas and remember a picture is worth a thousand words....and sometimes evokes a 1000 words. :laughing:
Sorry for going on but you may find the info useful. :thumbsup: bill
Attachments and joinery are also part of the structure and can be part of the design also, but they all interact. Yes, and what TT said also regarding the attachment of the legs to the aprons. It's all part of the structure. He'll have more to say I'm sure...


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*WELCOME TO THE FORUM*

For your first table you did a great job. In looking at the framework, your cross stretchers will likely be sufficient. You could add cross stretchers the height of the apron as additional cross support. They could be screwed to the existing ones.

As for the integrity of the leg attachment, it may be sufficient, depending on how well they are attached. I suggest you could add gussets. They are little triangles that could be attached to the back side of the apron, the underside of the top boards and to the leg, on both inside sides of the legs. They would just be triangulated support for the legs in two directions, which would make the leg that much more durable.

I can't tell what you did with the top boards, whether they are glued together or loose, and just attached to the framework. You have the possibility of wood movement cross grain, with changes in moisture and temperature. If the top boards are screwed to the frame, that won't stop the need for them to move. 

You also have endgrain showing. Now, for a farmhouse table that is OK in my book, because I'm a simple guy. For the movement issue, the center of the center board could be screwed to the frame, and the rest of the boards could be screwed to a cleat at the top of the frame that has been fitted with slotted holes to allow for movement. These are just suggestions.

So, you ask "What is a cleat?" Well, that's an easy one. All it is, is a wood member that is screwed at 90 degrees to the top inside of the apron. It does a few functions. First it stiffens the aprons making them super duper strong. The cleat also acts as a mounting point to screw down the top from underneath. I noticed some dabs of what looks like wood putty along the ends of the top boards. Did you screw them down that way?

So, this run on evaluation is coming to a close. Everything I'm suggesting can be done to what you already have. Now, that's good news...isn't it?












 





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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I agree with c-man on the gussets, they are one of the options I had in mind. I strongly disagree that the legs may be sufficient as are - they will become loose over time as they are. If you don't like the gusset idea, there's some other options that do require a higher degree of skill and patience, but I bet you could handle them. 






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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> I strongly disagree that the legs may be sufficient as are - they will become loose over time as they are.



It's OK to disagree. They could come loose over time. The way I said it was: "_As for the integrity of the leg attachment, it may be sufficient, depending on how well they are attached."_ We don't really know how the leg was attached. Besides I used the word "may", which is not a month because I didn't capitalize it, but rather offers the possibility of loss of mechanical strength to the connection, whatever that may be. It sure doesn't look like it's bullet proof. But, we are offering suggestions to the best of our abilities. 












 







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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh my!.............a writer who's sittin on a growing pile of hdwood?Uh,you need a library.The single,most lumber eatin'est project I can think of.And once a few design decisions are made,one of the easier efforts.


Corner section with unequal legs looks especially nice.IOWs,in a corner run a one section width of 30" or so on one side and then do 2,30" sections goin other way.This same corner design can also be a free standing unit away from wall.IOW's it can be used as a,large rm devider.The "L" configuration works better as its more stable.

A freestanding straight section does look nice as rm devide.We pay particular attention to "backside".These are usually panneled and make a great place for displaying art.Also a nice narrow table with sm lamp works well on backside.......fr side takes care of itself because of all the books.

Go steal ideas from old bookstores on designing storage units.You'll get a much better feel for "scale" than looking at pics.While you're there,sell'm some lumber,haha.The very best of luck,BW....who's also interested in your writing endeavors.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

cabinetman said:


> It's OK to disagree.


Thanks. That's a load off. 





cabinetman said:


> We don't really know how the leg was attached.





TexasTimbers said:


> As it stands it will not hold up to much abuse *and I'm saying that not knowing how you fastened the legs* to the aprons.






cabinetman said:


> Besides I used the word "may", which is not a month because I didn't capitalize it, but rather offers the possibility of loss of mechanical strength to the connection, whatever that may be.





TexasTimbers said:


> I strongly disagree that the legs *may* be sufficient as are - they *will* become loose over time as they are. . . .


Whattya know, I didn't capitalize it either. I made sure to choose my words carefully so I wouldn't misquote you. I didn't misquote you, I disagreed with you by making a slightly stronger commitment *to the OP* with *my* opinion. 




cabinetman said:


> But, we are offering suggestions to the best of our abilities.


Exactly. 


Don't worry T&R, this kind of persnicketiness doesn't always get interjected into people's threads. Usually only when cabinetman is posting between the hours of 1:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. He doesn't get much sleep and may have gotten me confused with someone else on one of his other forums. 











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## T&Rpattonsawmill (Oct 20, 2010)

Thank you for all the critiques and insight! It's all very helpful. Now, you think anyone would buy this table? lol If so, how do you price something like this and where do you sell it? 

My writing....I was a full time writer for magazines for over 10 years and write fiction on the side. I recently left my career to try and pursue some books I'd like to have published and evidently now woodworking. I never had so much fun working on a project in my life. And for a laugh, I actually thought up a new fiction story idea while I was working on it.....Nice, huh?


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

T&Rpattonsawmill said:


> . . . And for a laugh, I actually thought up a new fiction story idea while I was working on it.....Nice, huh?


All of the posters in this thread will expect royalties for their contribution in sparking the ideas. :icon_cheesygrin:

Good to know you're having fun. That really, is the main point. 




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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

TexasTimbers; said:


> Don't worry T&R, this kind of persnicketiness doesn't always get interjected into people's threads. Usually only when cabinetman is posting between the hours of 1:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. He doesn't get much sleep and may have gotten me confused with someone else on one of his other forums.



Not to hijack a thread, so GO HERE.










 











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## T&Rpattonsawmill (Oct 20, 2010)

Absolutely! You should all get royalties for the stories I think up while working on your suggestions too!


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## woodmeistro (Jul 9, 2010)

Welcome to woodworking, it is my passion as well. The project looks good, I cannot see the joinery but that is an area that I always strive to inprove on and authenticity of a piece. I wished i had a saw mill, I would never sell anything though.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

You aren't the only artistically talented person on the forum TR. My sketching abilities are infamous - I mean famous. :stuart: :no:


The red method is easier than it looks. The downside is that it blocks access on the ends so no chairs could be used there. If you're planning on using the ends and most dining tables do, there's a way to use the same basic quasi-trestle design but it's quite complex for a beginner, so if end seating is required I'd rule out the red method. 

The yellow are simple braces with 45º mitered ends. You would simply cut them all the same length and fasten one end to the inside of the apron and the other end to the inside face of the leg - oryou could "let it in". The apron end is easy, and the leg end has a couple of options as mentioned, one being quite easier than the other for a beginner. 

The blue thing is a gusset. This would be the easiest method to brace the legs, easier even than the yellow braces and would be plenty stout. 

All of these methods require the legs to be square with the table, and paralell to each other. The gusset makes this easiest to achieve. I won't go into details unless you want to use any of these (or other) bracing methods.











I don't really want any royalties but I do want an autographed book or three. :shifty:







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Table Design*

The farmhouse table is a simple and pure design which has no visible corner braces. If it were me,to keep the integrity of the design, I would add another apron around the perimeter say 3/4" and maybe a little deeper, say another 1/2" to 3/4" all around. the outside. This would accomplish several things:
It would beef up the long span, which I previously mentioned looked inadequate, and by lapping the existing corner joints give much more reinforcement to the legs. The table as shown has access from all sides and the ends with no "knee Knockers" and this is important for maximum utility and those with long legs. When the corners are reinforced, the legs can be braced with either wooden braces or these metal ones from Rockler: 
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=782









Wooden ones like in diagram "C"








I totally agree that for maximum strength the further away the brace is from the joint, IE down toward the foot of the table, the greater strength and resistence to movement the leg itself will have. Without a brace the joint itself must be tight and strong to resist any movement. That's why mortise and tenons are used in this sort of design. The "fix" is not always easy after the project has been completed as in this case. JMO :thumbsup: bill


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Bill, I prefer the wider apron look also for a farmhouse table, but the cross brace/stretcher design is very commonly found in the design. Corner bracing not as common I agree. Here's one that while I personally find unattractive, still fits into the farmhouse table category. 









TR here's a link to a google image search of farmhouse table for some ideas. 






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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> The blue thing is a gusset. This would be the easiest method to brace the legs, easier even than the yellow braces and would be plenty stout.
> 
> All of these methods require the legs to be square with the table, and paralell to each other. The gusset makes this easiest to achieve. I won't go into details unless you want to use any of these (or other) bracing methods.
> .



The blue gussets don't have to be that obvious to be effective. They can be triangulated and sized to fit behind the apron. Properly installed they would add significantly to beefing up the rigidity of the leg attachment.










 











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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

cabinetman said:


> The blue gussets don't have to be that obvious to be effective. They can be triangulated and sized to fit behind the apron.
> .


The apron is too narrow as it stands. Keeping the profiles of the gussets (whatever profile one chooses) the same height as the apron will help a little I said "will" in this case not "may"), but not much in this particular application all things considered. 

If the gussets were 3/4 or 4/4 or whatever the thickness of the aprons are to begin with, it would be as though the aprons were twice as thick and the ends half-lapped into the legs. 

No "significant beefing up" could be achieved this way as far as I know from experience. 





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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> The apron is too narrow as it stands. Keeping the profiles of the gussets (whatever profile one chooses) the same height as the apron will help a little I said "will" in this case not "may"), but not much in this particular application all things considered.
> 
> If the gussets were 3/4 or 4/4 or whatever the thickness of the aprons are to begin with, it would be as though the aprons were twice as thick and the ends half-lapped into the legs.
> 
> No "significant beefing up" could be achieved this way as far as I know from experience.



At this juncture in our discussion, we cannot overlook the doubt in how the legs are installed. That hasn't been cleared up. Adding a gusset glued to the three surfaces each would in theory add support to the leg joint by limiting whatever movement it may incur. 

It's amazing how little it takes sometimes. The apron looks to be about 3"-4" which for that size of the 90 degree leg of the gusset, would offer the gusset edges an affirmative connection to the leg, along with some countersunk screws. The flats can be glued and screwed to the apron.










 











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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*An Observation*

As of this post TT has a post count of 4,627, C-man has 4,585, WnT has 3,926 that's 13,138 and it's a serious but polite debate on how to build a simple farmhouse table. It's just the sort of thing this forum is all about. :thumbsup: JMO  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> As of this post TT has a post count of 4,627, C-man has 4,585, WnT has 3,926 that's 13,138 and it's a serious but polite debate on how to build a simple farmhouse table. It's just the sort of thing this forum is all about. :thumbsup: JMO  bill



If we got paid for post count it might matter to me.:laughing:












 











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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What?*



cabinetman said:


> If we got paid for post count it might matter to me.:laughing:
> 
> WE DON"T??? Now you tell me. And I've forgotten the secret code..... need a clue. :blink: bill


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