# Older Craftsman Table Saw won't cut square



## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Hello everyone, 

First post, as I'm a new homeowner that just received a "free to me" hand-me-down table saw. I've used other table saws in the past, but have no experience setting one up, and this one is giving me all sorts of problems! 

First, the saw: it's a Craftsman model # 113.241680 Flex drive table saw. As far as my research shows, "nothing fancy," but it does have a nice heavy deck. No matter how much I try to adjust the saw blade by tapping the trunnion bearing blocks, the closest I can get the saw to "true" is a full 1/8 inch off across the 10" blade. That is to say, the blade, measured at the front, is about 3 7/8" from the miter gauge slot. At the rear of the blade, it's 4" away. No ruler really required, it is visibly off...

At this point, I've pretty much entirely disassembled the saw to try and clean anything out (dust, etc.) that could have been affecting trunnion adjustment, but as far as I can tell, this hasn't improved it at all...

I've checked 3 separate (but all used) blades, and tried just about everything I can think of short of boring out the adjustment slots and grinding down the bearing blocks for greater adjustment, but so far - no luck. Nothing seems visibly warped, but I can't imagine they'd allow a saw to hit the showroom floor machined this badly. I did notice that the way the trunnion blocks seem to be designed, they tend to try and pull back toward "center" and won't quite go a full "side to side" adjustment due to some screws in then channel the trunnion rides in...

Any thoughts? Just curious if there is something painfully obvious that I'm missing. At this point, it has become a personal vendetta! :wink2:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*here's the trick ...*

Loosen, but keep a friction fit on 3 of the 4 bolts . The one you keep "snug" should be the pivot point. Looking down from above, select the one bolt that could be the pivot to get the front or rear over to be parallel. Lever or tap the trunnions in the correct direction and measure twice before snugging up the remaining 3 bolts. Then measure once again for "good measure".... :smile3:
Pick one tooth on the blade, mark it with tape or a marker then using that tooth for reference, measure the distance to the miter slot, by rotating the blade fore and aft until you get as close to the same measurement as possible.

I use a sanding disc or a "toothless" plate to measure
my saws for alignment. They are also called alignment plates and can be used on radial arm saws as well.


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> Loosen, but keep a friction fit on 3 of the 4 bolts . The one you keep "snug" should be the pivot point. Looking down from above, select the one bolt that could be the pivot to get the front or rear over to be parallel. Lever or tap the trunnions in the correct direction and measure twice before snugging up the remaining 3 bolts. Then measure once again for "good measure".... :smile3:
> Pick one tooth on the blade, mark it with tape or a marker then using that tooth for reference, measure the distance to the miter slot, by rotating the blade fore and aft until you get as close to the same measurement as possible.
> 
> I use a sanding disc or a "toothless" plate to measure
> my saws for alignment. They are also called alignment plates and can be used on radial arm saws as well.


Hmm...this is pretty much what I've done - I can certainly give it another shot, but it seems as if the adjustment "max out" long before the saw is even close to square...

I haven't bothered using the same tooth on the saw to measure yet. It's so far out, I haven't felt the need to "fine tune" just yet.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*well in that case ....*



rwberinger86 said:


> Hmm...this is pretty much what I've done - I can certainly give it another shot, but it seems as if the adjustment "max out" long before the saw is even close to square...
> 
> I haven't bothered using the same tooth on the saw to measure yet. It's so far out, I haven't felt the need to "fine tune" just yet.


You gotta turn the saw over and look into the cast holes on the trunnions, one bolt at a time IF the whole thing wants to shift too much. Other wise, take them all out and see if some judicious filing with a rat tail file will allow the misfitting hole/bolt to be properly aligned. Some times they are just not cast correctly at the factory. 

I think "we" can get this thing set up if you don't give up :wink2:


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> You gotta turn the saw over and look into the cast holes on the trunnions, one bolt at a time IF the whole thing wants to shift too much. Other wise, take them all out and see if some judicious filing with a rat tail file will allow the misfitting hole/bolt to be properly aligned. Some times they are just not cast correctly at the factory.
> 
> I think "we" can get this thing set up if you don't give up :wink2:


I appreciate the vote of confidence - I think that increasing some of the holes in the trunnions may be in order...I believe the issue is at the rear of the saw (rear trunnion). 

I've also noticed that, regardless of how low I set the blade, it seems to contact the blade insert at the rear when nearing 45 degrees. Doesn't this suggest that the rear alignment is way out? I've also attached some shots of the trunions as well. I'm not sure you'll be able to see, but I've pretty much "maxed out" the adjustment on the front trunnion to one side. There's a touch of space, but that's due to the heads of two screws on the front "axle" (not sure of the right term) contacting a rib in the underside of the deck. 

The rear trunnion appears to have about a 16th more adjustment but, as you suggested - I've pretty much maxed out the holes in the trunnion block mounting plate. I could certainly egg out those holes a bit further with a file...although I think I'd need to remove a full 1/16th - 1/8 inch of material to get this close, at a minimum...then there's an issue of where the rear "axle" passes through the deck where the rip fence attaches...I'm almost at the max of that hole as well, so the deck too, could need to be filed out...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Seeing how far you have been into this and it's still off the saw was either made bad or have been damaged in some way. It sounds like it will be necessary to elongate the mounting holes to allow you to make the adjustment needed to put the arbor in the right position. It looks like the bracket might be made out of aluminum which should make it a little easier.


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Seeing how far you have been into this and it's still off the saw was either made bad or have been damaged in some way. It sounds like it will be necessary to elongate the mounting holes to allow you to make the adjustment needed to put the arbor in the right position. It looks like the bracket might be made out of aluminum which should make it a little easier.


I'm kind of leaning toward "damaged" or somehow warped...Given that it's off by a full 1/8" with the adjusters maxed out, it seems like the previous owner either damaged it, or only ever used it to make cuts he really didn't care about! I can't imagine they'd let something leave the factory floor this off-square by design... Cuts are off by a little over 1/2" over a 4ft rip of plywood. I guess if you were just sawing up 2x4's you could get by...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

rwberinger86 said:


> I'm kind of leaning toward "damaged" or somehow warped...Given that it's off by a full 1/8" with the adjusters maxed out, it seems like the previous owner either damaged it, or only ever used it to make cuts he really didn't care about! I can't imagine they'd let something leave the factory floor this off-square by design... Cuts are off by a little over 1/2" over a 4ft rip of plywood. I guess if you were just sawing up 2x4's you could get by...


Yea I think if it came from the factory like that someone would have sent it right back. I've never seen a saw that bad. In any case I would modify the Union assembly as needed to square it up with the top even if it's necessary to fabricate some parts to make it happen.


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## JIMMIEM (Oct 12, 2014)

You might want to give PALS (Precision Alignment System) from InLine Industries a try. The PALS attach to the rear trunion bolts and help do a precision blade alignment. They aren't expensive. Check out the web site...they might work for you. Doing a saw blade alignment with a hammer and a block of wood? I have an old Craftsman table and could never get it right until I installed the PALS...now I can get straight cuts. The PALS are easy to install.


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

JIMMIEM said:


> You might want to give PALS (Precision Alignment System) from InLine Industries a try. The PALS attach to the rear trunion bolts and help do a precision blade alignment. They aren't expensive. Check out the web site...they might work for you. Doing a saw blade alignment with a hammer and a block of wood? I have an old Craftsman table and could never get it right until I installed the PALS...now I can get straight cuts. The PALS are easy to install.


That is a cool system, and definitely something I might try down the road...but I'm not sure I see how it would help align my saw given the issue I'm having. I thin would still have to pass through the trunnion "bearing block" or whatever the silver thing with the bolts through it is pictured above. If it still has to pass through that block, then I believe it would still limit adjustment. I THINK the issue I'm running into (as evidenced by the pictures posted last night) is that the holes through the block don't align well with the holes in the underside of the deck; so I can't shift the rear of the trunion over far enough to align the saw. 

That said, I'm honestly not convinced that even if I opened up the holes in the block to allow for more adjustment, I'd be able to get the trunnion to shift far enough. As far as I can tell I have a hair over 1/16 of an inch of adjustment that I can't "reach" in the rear trunnion, and the saw is about 1/8" out. Not really an "apples to apples" measurement, I know, but I think even expanding the rear holes might get me closer, but not straight. I may end up giving it a shot either way. Unfortunately, traveling for work right now so I haven't been home to test my theory yet!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the PALS system only works when ....*

The PALS will only work when there is clearance around the holes to move the bracket. If you are "out of movement" and bumping into the bracket, there is only one solution.... file the hole in the direction it need to move. 

If you enlarge the hole sufficiently it may slightly weaken the bracket, SO just use a larger washer to distribute what small forces there may be on the bolt. When the bolts are snugged up it will NOT move because there is no lateral force being applied. You are just holding the bracket in position against some downward forces, but are minimal.

Go for it! :smile3:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

To get the most movement possible the bolts should be located as close to the center of the holes as possible, if they are shifted too far back or forward movement will be limited, sometimes loosening all the bolts and just moving it around will help to get it close to where it should be. Then snug up one bolt and go from there for fine tuning.
If you do enlarge the holes it is a good idea to use thick or double washers, a distorted washer can cause the trunnion to move when it is tightened.


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

FrankC said:


> To get the most movement possible the bolts should be located as close to the center of the holes as possible, if they are shifted too far back or forward movement will be limited, sometimes loosening all the bolts and just moving it around will help to get it close to where it should be. Then snug up one bolt and go from there for fine tuning.
> If you do enlarge the holes it is a good idea to use thick or double washers, a distorted washer can cause the trunnion to move when it is tightened.


Definitely good info. I have tried loosening all the bolts (and removing every bracket and sub-assembly that could interfere). With all the trunnion bolts loose, the blade tilt "clamp" handle removed, and the small phillips head screws that mount the trunnion "rods" to the main trunnion assmebly run in backward to get their heads out of the way, I can get just enough motion to come CLOSE to getting the saw aligned (or as far as I can tell, given how loose/wobbly everything is at that point). Unfortunately as you tighten the trunnion bolts down it pulls everything back out of alignment (again, thinking this is due to the holes in the bearing blocks being too small). Plus, the trunnion itself isn't threaded for the phillips screws, simply held to the "rod" by the head of the screw...so I can't actually run the screws in backward permanently...

Unrelated - is there a good way to determine if the trunnion itself is warped (can this even happen?) or determine if the arbor/trunnion is somehow out of square? I don't see too many level surfaces to measure against on the trunnion. 

Also unrelated - and a complete newbie question, but when adjusting the saw to 45 degrees (actually anything beyond about 40) I'm getting dangerously close, or contacting the blade insert. I'm assuming we aren't supposed to use a different insert for bevel cutting, right? This is an additional issue with having the saw this far askew? When cutting at 45 degrees, is there a distance from the edge of the insert that's considered "safe?"


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> The PALS will only work when there is clearance around the holes to move the bracket. If you are "out of movement" and bumping into the bracket, there is only one solution.... file the hole in the direction it need to move.
> 
> If you enlarge the hole sufficiently it may slightly weaken the bracket, SO just use a larger washer to distribute what small forces there may be on the bolt. When the bolts are snugged up it will NOT move because there is no lateral force being applied. You are just holding the bracket in position against some downward forces, but are minimal.
> 
> Go for it! :smile3:


I think this is the plan, as soon as I get home, I'll try to take a stab at it. Again, I'm a little concerned that even this won't gain me enough adjustment, but I don't see another viable alternative at this point. I guess if I enlarge the holes and still can't get it square, I'll have to figure out the next place it's "bottoming out" and start filing there too...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*last question first....*

No, you don't need a different throat plate for a 45 degree bevel. Somethin' ain't right with that whole carriage set up. :frown2: First off, do not use "lock" washers under the bolts, not needed and the screw up your alignments. Use a flat washer thick enough to carry the torque across the larger hole in the bracket.

You need to set the saw upside down on some boxes so you can see BOTH trunnion holes and the underside to measure the blade for parallel to the miter slots OR use a mirror, but that makes every movement backwards...

Remove all the bolts and center the trunnions fore and aft on the holes. Then see what needs to happen right to left to insert the bolts easily all the while keeping the blade lined up.

If this doesn't work then the carriage/trunnion assembly may be out of whack or twisted. Remove the blade and set the trunnions and brackets on a flat surface to see if it rocks or if you can twist it easily by hand. Loosen all the set screws that hold the rods and let everything "normalize" then tighten them up. The set screws that hold the rods should leave small circular indents on the rods when they are tightened. 
You have not shown clearly how those screws work, so that would be good to do. This saw using the rods rather than a one piece casting as the older saws have is a bit of a bastard. I don't know much about how this system works, but I do know that lining up the holes and making the blade parallel is relatively simple... non-technical.

If the blade is too close to one side of the throat plate when properly aligned,there may be a missing arbor washer... who knows?


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Ok I got another couple of minutes to fool with it last night. Adding more pictures in hopes it helps. 

Woodnthings - I appreciate you following along! To respond to what you said, there are no "set screws" on the rods. The screws actually pass through the carriage (unthreaded) and into threaded holes in the rod, so adjustment is somewhat limited, as the screws still need to seat (and thread) in the rod. 

First, I flipped the saw over, and took some pictures on the full carriage assembly - hopefully this will provide a better idea of what I'm dealing with. I wrote on the picture to highlight some points where I THINK there is room for error. 

Next, I removed ALL the trunnion bolts (and the bevel adjust bracket, which mounts to the front trunnion bracket). I tried to center ALL FOUR trunnion bracket holes over their respective bolt holes, and came across 2 potential issues. 

1. With the front bracket aligned with the bolt holes "centered" in the bracket - it's still almost completely adjusted to the side I need it to go. I can't get it any further to that side due to the screw heads through the carriage and into the trunnion rods. Picture attached. 

2. With the front trunnion locked in place, it is IMPOSSIBLE to align the rear trunnion bracket holes to center, due to a spacer between the bracket and main carriage assembly. Picture of the closest I can get to centered, attached. 

What I'm running into is difficult to explain. Even with both rear bolts out, so I can drag the blade completely to one side, and the front trunnion locked down in the "centered" position, the front trunnion rod still moves, thereby moving the entire assembly left or right. As a result, I can "max out" the adjustment to one side, and the blade is still about 1/8" off parallel. In trying to correct the BACK of the blade only, I'm actually moving the ENTIRE blade closer to one side of the throat, if that makes sense. In short, it seems like the rear rod would actually have to be disconnected and angled toward or away from the carriage to truly adjust front-to-rear alignment.

I guess the next step is completely disassembling the carriage, removing it from the saw, and doing my best to figure out what part of the whole assembly is warped (rods, arbor assy., carriage assy. etc.) and try to square it up. Although I am definitely starting to wonder if it's worth it, or if I should just start hunting garage sales for a different saw. This one was free, so I'm trying to get it to work, but there may be a reason it was free!


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Hey all, 

Just wanted to provide an update to this. As opposed to opening up the holes on the bracket (which I don't think would have worked due to the extent of the misalignment) I actually ended up "machining" the trough in the carriage itself that the rear rod sits in, using a grinder and round file, to allow the rod to index deeper. Prior, it was a 90 degree angle in the casting holding a cylindrical rod. Now, it's a cylindrical opening that allowed the rod to sit about 1/4 inch deeper. I think I have the saw now adjusted to within 1/32-1/64 of square, which will likely be good enough for the next few projects. The first few things I'm working on don't need absolute precision and will give me a better idea as to whether or not the saw it cutting even close to straight. 

The saw is also now properly aligned in the throat, meaning it will reach 45 degrees, and not bind on the throat plate. 

I also took this opportunity to re-lube every moving part in the carriage/arbor assembly I could get to. Now, re-installed in the table, the degree measurement "pointer" next to the hand crank is nowhere close to accurate, but I've confirmed 90 degrees and 45 degrees with a square, and set the stop screws. 

Once it's all re-assembled, I've got some long plywood cuts to make which should serve as a nice test bed to determine if I've accomplished anything.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm glad you have it close however as soon as you can I think you should get it adjusted correctly. It will damage the blade to not have the blade true with the top. When you rip something it will rub on the side of the blade generating heat not to mention adding a danger to the saw. If the wood is pinched just a little it makes a kickback more likely.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This is a very interesting thread on the flex drive*

An old thread on the Craftsman flex drive starting at post 11 by Greyeagle describes a tortuous series of efforts to convert it to a belt drive:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/sears-craftsman-10-flex-drive-table-saw-3363/


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm glad you have it close however as soon as you can I think you should get it adjusted correctly. It will damage the blade to not have the blade true with the top. When you rip something it will rub on the side of the blade generating heat not to mention adding a danger to the saw. If the wood is pinched just a little it makes a kickback more likely.


As I re-assembled it tonight, I re-measured. I'm pretty sure even a 64th might be an exaggeration. It's pretty square - I have to squint pretty hard at the straightedge and second guess myself to see otherwise. Also - I'm currently measuring off blades that came with the saw, so I really don't have a good basis to say whether the old blades are a product of a misaligned saw. That aren't too visibly warped but I notice a faint wobble in all of them. I don't want to keep removing material until I'm confident that an issue still exists. 



woodnthings said:


> An old thread on the Craftsman flex drive starting at post 11 by Greyeagle describes a tortuous series of efforts to convert it to a belt drive:
> 
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/sears-craftsman-10-flex-drive-table-saw-3363/


Too funny - I found that thread when I was searching for information on this saw, after I inherited it. Virtually everything I've read online is not kind to these saws. Seems like a failed experiment in the late 70's and into the 80's. On one hand, it's a free saw, (unless you count probably 15+ hours of labor/messing with it so far). I like messing with mechanical stuff, so while frustrating, it has also been entertaining and educational. The first few projects will be building shelving and some simple work benches for the garage, so I can get back to my other mechanical nightmare - a 1975 Toyota FJ40 Land Cruiser with a 1967 Chevy 283 (I'm a glutton for punishment).


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## rwberinger86 (Sep 20, 2016)

Well, it's a saw again! 

As I mentioned, I got everything re-assembled tonight. As far as I can tell, the blade is pretty darn close to square. I don't see this thing ever being particularly precise - The rip fence is about 1/16th out of parallel with the miter groove by the time you get to the back of the saw, and won't seem to adjust any straighter. The angle guide on the front is, as far as I can tell, completely irrelevant/wrong. 

One thing I will note is that the blade used to absolutely SCREAM when the saw was running. That noise is gone - not sure if I lubricated something or if aligning everything caused it to stop, but that's a nice bonus.

I appreciate all the warm welcomes and encouragement here! I'm completely in awe of some of the projects I've seen cruising around here. Hopefully once I get past "basic framing" and playing with 2x4's, I'll find some time to get into some more serious woodworking in the future. In the short term, I'll report back once I've ripped some plywood and 2x4's and let you know how it's cutting - and I'll probably try and do something about all the rust...


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