# finish for an entry door?



## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Okay, y'all, I don't always get much help when I post questions, but I keep trying. I've done very little exterior finish work. I've coated my outdoor bench swing with McCloskey's spar varnish, and it peels off once a year. 
I've got some customers who want me to put a finish on their 3 cherry entry doors which they have ordered. Now, I know at least 1 of these doors will have no protection from the elements, i.e. there is no portico or awning over that entry. One of the doors will have a portico to shelter it. The third one, I don't know. 
The only alternative to spar varnish which comes to mind is marine epoxy such as West Systems. It's pretty thick and glossy and I'd rather not go that route. Anybody know of a better quality spar varnish? Or another suggestion entirely? (Please don't suggest that the entryways be fully enclosed. That would not be a helpful suggestion)
Also, I would presume that whatever finish I use on the outside, I would also use on the inside. Is there ever a case when this is not so? Obviously, interior and exterior finishes have different properties, so I have to ask the question, because, as I said, I have little experience with this type of finishing. 
Thanks for any help.


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## jerry (Nov 1, 2006)

Most any outdoor finish requires maintenance. One finish I have been reading about is One Time Wood it is expensive About eighty dollars a gallon,but the say they guarantee it for seven years. I put some on three flower boxes on the South side of my house thre years ago,so far so good. The marine varnishes are also very expensive. 

Good Luck

Jerry


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks for the input, Jerry. I've emailed the tech folks at One Time to get their feedback on this application. I'll see what they say about it.
I know that both the One Time and the marine epoxy are expensive, but it's less costly than having to re-sand and refinish the doors EVERY YEAR. If they last 3-4 years, I would consider it adequate, and money well spent. After all, the labor is far more expensive than the product.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

So an update... the rep at One Time Wood finish sent me out samples of the finish, and I applied it to some sample cherry blocks. It goes on just like any oil - no streaking, no dust issues, no overlap lines, etc. The 3 samples sent were honey, red cedar, and clove brown. He said they do have a clear and a natural, but they will allow the wood to gray. He also said that these are primarily formulated for cedar and redwood. Because cherry is more dense than these, he suggested that it may need to be reapplied every 2-3 years because it won't be able to penetrate as deeply into the cherry. But reapplication would be a snap. Just clean the wood with a damp rag/mild detergent, let it dry, then wipe it on. No sanding necessary, and only one coat.
So if this stuff does what they claim, it would be well worth the $80/gallon.


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## Handyman (Jan 2, 2008)

mmwood_1 said:


> Okay, y'all, I don't always get much help when I post questions, but I keep trying. I've done very little exterior finish work. I've coated my outdoor bench swing with McCloskey's spar varnish, and it peels off once a year. ............
> 
> .



I don't know much about the finish you have used, but I have had good luck with Minwax Helmsmans Spar Urethane. I try not to have to put a finish on ext doors when I install them, but evey once in a while I am asked to. I am in the home repair business and change about 4 doors a month. This is all I use, and I like it.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Handyman,
How long does it hold up and in what kind of exposure, before it needs to be sanded and refinished? I've read a lot of opinions about the spar urethanes being vastly inferior to the spar varnishes. Do you ever go back and look at those doors after a year or two of weather exposure?


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## Handyman (Jan 2, 2008)

mmwood_1 said:


> Handyman,
> How long does it hold up and in what kind of exposure, before it needs to be sanded and refinished? I've read a lot of opinions about the spar urethanes being vastly inferior to the spar varnishes. Do you ever go back and look at those doors after a year or two of weather exposure?


 
MMwood I have never gone back and looked to see if the finish was holding up but, I know most of the people I do work for and if the finish was failing, I am sure I wouls here about it. I had never heard about Spar Urithain finishes untill I was asked to finish a door I was insalling. I made a call the the guy that supplies a local lumber yard with all there non lumber related items and asked him what he had that would hold up to the outdoor eliments. That is when he told me about it. I then asked 2 contractor friends about the product and got positive feedback. So I gave it a try. I have only been using it for 2 years and havent had any calls yet. I do have to say this, I am sold on minwax products. I know there are most likely finishes out there that are much better, but when you find something that works for you, I tend to stick with it.


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## boomer0369swife (Oct 4, 2008)

*Yay!*

:thumbsup: Thanks for this post! I am finishing an exterior door that will be exposed also. Sun is an issue here and the door will only get morning sun and little water (desert, 5x a yr max). I have minwax stain for the door, and I~ bought spar urethane, but am very reluctant to use that. I am thinking a deck stain from what I am reading will be more inline with the problems I face with this door. I scan read this thread and am going back to read the comment that spoke of minwax.......but ANY input into my prob will be appreciated. I can't wait to hear how the original posters door turned out!! SO HURRRRRRRRRRRY.............lol............:laughing:


*~J*


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I got very disappointed with spar varnishes and urethanes, from the off the shelf Helmsman to Epifanes and Interlux. Whatever is used as a "film" finish will fail sooner or later, usually sooner, and will require sanding and refinishing.

The resulting failure is from what was done to the wood. A sealed finish over wood prevents the wood from reacting to ambient conditions. What happens is the finish fails, and becomes the reactive coating which becomes crystalline and crusty (for a lack of better words).

As long as there will be maintenance, I would rather use an oiled finish. Maintenance is easier, as regular re-oiling maintains the finish.

A painted finish will outlast any other type.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*When it comes to exterior finishes,*

lots of people will have the complete opposite experiences with the same product. 
So, I will throw mine into the pot. 
I do a lot of marine repair work in my spare time and I also live on my boat. My experiences are on the Ms, La, and Tx coasts of the Gulf of mex. Lots of destructive UV rays here. OK here goes:

Helmsman Spar Varnish I put on the bottom of the list. 
Spar Varnishes such as Schooner Varnish are Ok and will last about 1 year in my climate. These varnishes like most varnishes chip pretty easily.

Epifanes I found to be the best. It will last about 2 years and dont chip or yellow. I walk on it everyday. This stuff is bulletproof. It is easy to brush or spray. It is very glossy, but the gloss can easily be knocked down. 

Oil finishes, although the easiest to apply give by far, the least protection. 

As cabinetman said, any clear finish outdoors will fail. Some sooner than later. My experiences with the above products are on boats that are exposed to the direct sun all day long with absolutely no shade. If the door gets partial shade it will last much much longer.

The 2 photos are things finished with Epifanes.The wooden strips on the cable (ratlines) are mahogany with no stain and the doors are teak with no stain.

If you recoat any varnish or acrylic before it deteriorates from the sunlight, all it will require is a cleaning, light sanding and a several new coats


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## boomer0369swife (Oct 4, 2008)

I hope I am not double posting.......eek........

Before I found this thread, I had already bought a pint of Rustoleum's new stuff........Spar Urethane?? Please tell me this is a Epifane or whatever you called it..........I did read up on UV protection etc......all I got out of that was the best was UVA and HALS in concert..........so what the hell is UVA and HALS? No clue......I'm hoping Tony is going to tell me that its the same thing and that is the new crap I bought............????? (THANKS GUYS!!)


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Sorry*

I am not familiar with Rustoleum. Epifanes is a brand name for a modified varnish of sorts.
UVA is Ultra Violet Absorption and HALS is basically a light stabilizer. Pretty much all outdoor finishes have this.
Rustoleum Spar varnish is an outdoor product as are all the other things I mentioned. 
When it comes to chemicals, there is no magic bullet, no secret formulas that allow cheaper pricing. You get what you pay for. One of the misleading things about many chemical products whether paint, cosmetics or cleaning fluids, is that the same percentages of the same ingredients does not give the same quality product. The chemical processes that are used to make these products are important. Its not just a simple matter of putting all of these ingredients in a bowl and mixing it up. 
Since I am not familiar with Rustoleum products, I cant help you there. The only thing I will say is that up to a point, the more coats you use the better off you will be. And please for your own sake, follow the directions. 
The fact that you only get morning sun reduces the impact. Chances are, whatever you use, you will probably be better off if you 'freshen' it up once a year whether it needs it or not. Sometimes a product looks really good after a year and then 3 months later it deteriorates all at once. The once a year routine usually means a thorough cleaning, a light sanding and then recoat it several times. If you let the finish get really ratty, then you will have to take it down to bare wood. 
Let the customer know up front that unpainted wood exposed to the elements with a clear finish will have to be maintained once a year.
Stay away from epoxy, not as good as claimed. 
Totally avoid any oil finishes, you only want a hard finish.
Sorry I cant be of more help.


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## boomer0369swife (Oct 4, 2008)

*I hope the link works*

http://www.woodanswers.com/wood101_spec.asp?row_id=46

This is a link (supposed to be anyway) to the product I am talking about. I was trying to download the specs sheet on it but it is taking forever pdf file. Anyway it seems to be an oil based product and I was going to use minwax dark walnut stain on it. Here in the desert, we have corrosive soils (lots of salt like ocean water) and things get sand blasted also. The door will have one of those iron security doors on top, but that won't offer much protection for the door. Thank you guys for your time in explaining all that to me........If you can take a look at the product I am using or suggest a namebrand or something..........I am just lost and I do not want to f up my door............:blink:


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Update.........I made samples of different finishes and presented them, along with pros and cons of each, to my customers. They opted to try the OneTime Wood Finish. The primary reason is because reapplication is a snap. It's a product which I have never used and I told them I can make absolutely no claims or guarantees about it, so it is entirely their risk. It looks great on the samples. We'll see how it holds up in the real world over time.


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## boomer0369swife (Oct 4, 2008)

MM.......does that stuff come in a jug like bug spray sort of?? If so, I think I have looked at the same stuff. When are you starting on that door???


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*I may be wrong*

and I am wrong many times, but I think this "One Time Finish" is for decks, fences and porches. That is a far cry from a fine cherry door. 
It would be in your best interest to call the manufacturer of this product and talk to a technical rep. Then do the same with the door manufacturer. This ought to put this to bed. 
I know what will work and for how long, but I don't know what wont work. That is the part that will get you into deep trouble.
Again, sorry I couldn't be of more help but I would hate to see you make a costly mistake.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

Tony B said:


> but I think this "One Time Finish" is for decks, fences and porches. That is a far cry from a fine cherry door.
> It would be in your best interest to call the manufacturer of this product and talk to a technical rep. Then do the same with the door manufacturer.


Tony,
You are correct in your assertion that it was manufactured for decks and porches. It was primarily intended for use on cedar and redwood. I did contact a technical rep and explained exactly the situation I was looking at and asked if it was an appropriate product to use. His response was, yes, it would work fine, but because the cherry is more dense than the cedar/redwood it was intended for, it should be recoated every 2 years. Also, it should only be used on the exterior of the door, as it needs to be exposed to sunlight/uv rays to cure. He also said that the natural finish would allow the wood to turn gray, while the tinted ones would prevent graying.
I have explained all of this in detail to my customers, and further explained that I cannot make any claims about the success or failure of this product. Thus, I will apply it if this is what they want to try, but I am not willing to assume any financial responsibility for repair if the finish fails to do the job, after being applied according to manufacturer's directions. This will be written very clearly on the job order. 
They are supposed to get their doors on the 12th of October, I will do the finish work then. But only time will tell how well it works. We will keep an eye on it as the winter rolls along. For what it's worth, it looks great when applied to the cherry samples I made. If it holds up to the weather, it will be a success.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

*Mark - Thanks for keeping us informed.*

I'm offshore now and this rig/platform is recovering from 2 recent hurricanes. My internet access is OK, but telephone access is 'iffy' at best. Calls keep dropping off or no dial tone or I would have made the call myself.
I think now that you spoke to them, the 'real' experts have spoken. 
Apparently this product has the same lifespan as the better marine finishes and there still is no 'magic bullet' for a clear finish exposed to the sun and weather. 
You are wise in not making any guarantees to your clients. I would suggest that you tell your clients it will have to be maintained *every* year. That way, if the finish breaks down prematurely, you wont have to re-work the wood itself. 

Tony B


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Mark, I know you have enough avenues to pursue now, mainly because we are making up for all those times you never had your questions answered, but I will throw this in the mix for your future consideration. In fact, I'd suggest getting some of the exterior product now and use it on a few test pieces and keep them in the sum and rain from now on. Date them also. 

I have tried a lot of exterior products by many companies but the one below makes a polymerized tung oil that surpasses anything I have tried so far. Don't let "tung oil" give you any preconceived notions. This stuff is as good as they claim on their description page of it. 

*Sutherland Welles Polymerized Tung Oil* The technical help available is excellent. Ask for Mary.


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