# Breadboarding



## jim386 (Jan 27, 2007)

I am making a dinner table for my daughter, quarter sawn white oak, trestle style, and plan to 'breadboard' the ends. My question is not how to make the joint (probably spline, but maybe tongue & groove) but rather this: Do I glue the entire length of the joint, or will that cause problems as the wood moves during the seasonal changes? If anyone has experience or insight into this type of construction, please advise.


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## joasis (Sep 15, 2006)

Welcome to the forum....I will let the more knowlegable answer the tech question.....I have done a few bread board edges, and I used a table saw to cut a rabbit, and then a dado stack to cut the groove. Glues solid. No problems, but then again, I might not have done it correctly.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

jim welcome. don't glue the joint at all. it will not move much along the length of the long grain will do so over it's width. The breadboard has to be able to accomodate the movement of table top in its' joint whether it be a spline with doweled mortise and tenon, or a dovetail joint. 
It will react to the RH changes and eventually if you try and restrain it, it will break free from its bonds and make you pay. Could be weeks could be years but if you glue the joint it will suffer some degree of damage.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

As an addendum it could be argued that it's cool to glue the center mortise and tenon but I don't even like that just glue the dowels in place , and remember to elongate all the dowel holes in the tenons except the center one. It, you don't want to elongate so that it will be held in place.


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

Pretty much ditto what TT said. I always use a tongue and groove. I make two elongated holes in the tongue and put the dowels in from the bottom. 
I made a window seat from red oak about a year ago and though it's only about 18" wide, it moves about 1/8" with the weather.


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## jim386 (Jan 27, 2007)

O.K., this is starting to make some sense now. I suspect I will be using a tongue and groove joint, but in order to accomadate the dowels, it looks like the tongue will need to be longer than I had anticipated. I had investigated the possible seasonal dimension changes (Understanding Wood, by R. Bruce Hoadley) and was quite suprised as to how much this table will change. As far as choosing which joint to use, I guess we are limited by our tools we have, but I do have the confidence to proceed knowing that this table will withstand Minnesota's brutal moods. Any more input will be great, thanks so much.


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

The tongue only has to be 1/2" wide and the dowels 1/4". I keep my dowels a tad closer to the panel side.
I also make my joint fairly tight so there is no slop up and down. Not tight where you have to get out a mallet but so it doesn't want to slide off the tongue.


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## joasis (Sep 15, 2006)

After reading this, I guess I wasn't doing a true, breadboard edge....but the first one I did is still holding perfect after a dozen years...of course, there isn't really a lot of humidity changes in my home.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

I think the key here is, will the table be subjected to huge humidity swings. If the table is kept indoors in a climate controlled house, it should never move. If you like to open you windows for most of the summer then it will move as the humidity goes up and down.

As far as how the old craftsman did it, it was because in the summer there was no airconditioning and in the winter they heated their house with wood heat. Your talking about a possible 50% swing in humidity. 

I think that in todays society with the way most of us live if it was glued all the way it will probably hold up for the rest of it's life. If you want to do it the old craftsmans way then dowl and glue only in the middle like the above post.


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## Plowboy (Dec 31, 2006)

What TT described is what I've seen done on New Yankee Workshop, too. But Dave has a good point. Either way, you probably couldn't go wrong.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Even under the best of circumstances who in the world can guarantee a piece of furniture wont be subjected to RH swings? Even in todays society. 
Hope for the best and plan (build) for the worst as the old addage goes. Gluing along the length of the joint is planning for disaster.


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## dwwright (Jan 15, 2007)

In my experiences, as long as the environment changes aren't extremely drastic, then you can do the glue. Most of my projects get built in my garage, which has a duct fed from the house. I run a heat pump year round and have little change in humidity or temperature. I have yet to have any warps, cracks, or issues. You could try it and if it does have issues, cut back and do a wider breadboard with no glue.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I'm not trying to argue here and certainly not trying to say i am "right" and you are "wrong"; just want to clarify a litte further my viewpoint.

When you say "In my experience" you nor I have even been on this planet for a very long time. When I build a piece of furntiure i want it to last generations. To assumne that a piece is never going to be exposed to RH swings is simply not realistsic nor thining in the long term.
That's really the only reason to use this fail safe, centuries-proven method though. If 10 - 20 years is good enough for you by all means glue the joint and pretend it will never fail and that it wil always be kept in a Smithsonian environment. 

Now this is just my opinion and I my way is not the only way. I just want newbies to realize when you glue to pieces of soliud wood, perpendicular to each other according to the grain such as in a breadboard, the wood is going to move unless it lives the rest of its life in a perfect environment. 
i don't think you will find any woodworking school, respected instructor, or respnsible publication that would teach otherwise but I stand to be corrected.


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## dwwright (Jan 15, 2007)

Ok:yes: , You make a very valid point that you cannot predict RH changes. I think each case is different and if I was building a piece that I was worried about wood movement...no glue. 

However, should you decide to glue, make sure the wood is a environment that matches the same relative environment as it's final resting place (for a short period of time or while being built) to reduce the chance of splits and such. This is the point I guess I was trying to make. 

The last few projects I've done have been tables that I didn't want a joint crack open for liquids and such to get into and expand the wood. Glueing/sealing the joints was a more appealing option in my opinion.


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

I concur with TT. In fact, when a client wants a price for a piece of furniture, custom made, I ask them if they want heirloom quality or something that will just last our lifetimes. That may sound odd, but I can scare someone away with a price for an heirloom piece that takes more know-how, talent, time and materials. 
A breadboard end is a good example.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

dwwright said:


> The last few projects I've done have been tables that I didn't want a joint crack open for liquids and such to get into and expand the wood. Glueing/sealing the joints was a more appealing option in my opinion.


But here I bet you are referring to long grain _parallel_ to long grain where a glue joint is unequalled in performance. 

It's just when you glue long grain _perpindicular_ to long grain that a glue joint can eventually fail over a long peroid of time. Think about how wood moves mostly ... most of the movement occurs across the grain, so in the case of a breadboard the top, not the ends, move along the glue line but the end board cannot match that movement in the same direction becasue tangential movement is very minimal in wood.

So your glue lines with long grain parallel to each other is prcatically immune to failure all things being equal (proper prepration and execution) even when disimiliar woods are used, because expansion and shrinkage are so minimal in that direction.


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## dwwright (Jan 15, 2007)

TT, I don't dis-agree that no glue is the right way to do this. I just think that it depends on the environment and use of the piece. If the piece is for every day use and in an environment that would be suitable, glued joints look good and serve a purpose. In my case I didn't want moisture and junk falling into the cracks. I've done several projects this way over the years and I haven't had issues yet. Some my projects are close to 25 year old, not that this is old, but still they've had time to adjust. 

So what would be my or Jim's options if the joint wasn't glued and wanted to be sure the joints were sealed? How does one go about doing this? What methods would you suggest?


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## dwwright (Jan 15, 2007)

Jim, welcome to the board BTW.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

A well executed breadboard joint, especially a dovetail, will not be the huge crack you are envisoning and will be barely discernable. If you glue it, it is going to break the seal of the finish eventually anyway and have the same look.

Click here for a step by step illustartion of a classic breadboard approach using mortise and tenon. It has no visible gap to speak of. A dovetail joint will be even tighter.

Here is another Link.

If you want to glue it then by all means glue it. :thumbsup: It won't explode and set the house on fire if you do. :laughing:


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## Rob (Oct 31, 2006)

This is the window seat I was talking about a few posts earlier. This picture was taken last week when the temps here in DE were in the 60's with humidity about the same. Notice how much the breadboard is proud of the panel. In the summertime, even with the a.c. on, the panel expands a little more than that. Make this a 48" wide table top and multiply the expansion/contraction. My point being that with all this movement, something has to give.


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## justME (Aug 24, 2007)

I am knew to this site, and by my read this I see it is early in 2007. I will ask the question a bit differently. (first the project) I am building a bar top using walnut and red oak. The overall width will be 14 inches with 12 showing, the other two are hidden by the bar rail. I plan to miter the ends so that each wood lines up together. A friend suggested breadboarding the miter so that the expansion will work. He also suggested using Bar Top finish because is has elasticity and the seam will not separate during expansion. 

The Question: Will someone, or several ones, offer suggestions and if available pictures that can help me get this right. 

Thank you, Roy


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Welcome justMe. 

I would not miter a functional breadboard (versus a breadboard look). I think it would be ugly when open. Just picturing it in my mind.


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## justME (Aug 24, 2007)

*Breadboard joint*

So would you just biscuit the joint and glue it? What about the expansion issue?

I want my walnut to line up with walnut and oak to oak in the L shape of this bar top. Is 14 inches narrow enough not to worry about expansion?


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

There are so many variables. How thick are the boards? How are they joined? For starters that is. 

It sounds like you are talking about an "ell" where the strips of wood make a 90 degree turn, because you say _. . . I plan to miter the ends so that each wood lines up together . . . . _

Wood moves. You can't avoid it. All you can do is manage it. If you are turning a corner with the strips that is one thing, if you are enclosing them with "ends" that is another. I am not sure what you want to do.


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## jimmiet. (Aug 15, 2007)

*bread board ends*

You have cross grain construction, movement in two directions it will
eventally come apart . personally I would use mortice & tendon joints.
all solid wood moves. I agree with texas timbers.
just my opinion.
didnt look at dates I'm about a year late!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Spyko (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm a bit surprised that this is much of a question. There IS an accepted and time-proven way of making this joint. Arguing in favor of gluing a breadboard end joint along it's full lenght IS wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of wanting the joint to last. I would hope that anyone taking the time to use such a joint is intending the table to last generations. The fact of the matter is that you don't know where it will end up. I think we all want to build one-off antiques for our grandchildren, no? I built a dining table as a wedding present for my sister and the top ( 1.5 inches thick ) changes by 3/8 in width seasonally. If there's a glue out there that would prevent this I want a bottle!


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## Grinder (Nov 17, 2007)

I agree with Spyko, this should be basic wood working knowledge, wood moves, period. Starting out, I learned the hard way. One of the first projects I made was a small box (maybe 10"x15") with a tiger maple top. I splined walnut trim around the edge of the top and dovetail splined the miters. Being so proud of my work, imagine my shock when the top blew apart 3 months later. 

Here's a pic of a walnut chest I made 12 years ago, hopefully it will still be here long after I'm gone. The 28" top moves a little over 1/4" through out the year. The middle peg is glued, the outer pegs go through elongated holes and aren't glued. I have no doubt that this joint would have failed a long time ago, if it was glued over it's entire length.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

There is a simple way to box a top in with mitered corners and not have to worry about the relative moisture content. Simply veneer the interior panel. And I mean real veneer, not that tissue paper thin stuff.

There are other ways to make that top, such as planned gaps in the middle, using wood that's quartersawn and of a species that's very stable with sliding joints with edge reveals and tongue-in-groove with a batten. 

But if you really want a mitered frame around a table top, veneer it.


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## Spyko (Nov 3, 2007)

PK. said:


> There is a simple way to box a top in with mitered corners and not have to worry about the relative moisture content. Simply veneer the interior panel. And I mean real veneer, not that tissue paper thin stuff.
> 
> There are other ways to make that top, such as planned gaps in the middle, using wood that's quartersawn and of a species that's very stable with sliding joints with edge reveals and tongue-in-groove with a batten.
> 
> But if you really want a mitered frame around a table top, veneer it.


HUH? How did we get from a question about breadboard ends to mitered frames around a tabletop? Also, what do you mean "relative" moisture content? Are the mitered frame and the panel inside it in different rooms under different conditions? What are we veneering? T & G with a batten? Are you going to mention the need to veneer both sides of the panel to keep it from cupping? 
Yes, there are many ways to make a tabletop...We could carve it from stone...but we're trying to help jim386 out with a question about breadboard ends for his quatersawn oak table, not just trying to impress with "knowledge" about an unrelated topic. Why try to tell the original poster to re-think his project?
I had a proffessor in college a long time ago. He would always ask exam essay Qs that ended with this: "Please answer the question I asked, not the one you wish I asked or the one you happen to have studied for the most." 'nuff said.

PS: Nice chest Grinder. I hope my grandkids find it in an antique shop someday.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

Relative moisture content is the proper term for moisture within the wood, which is what causes wood movement. Relative humidity is the term for moisture in the air. This should be simple enough for most to understand.

I didn't set out to give a lesson on veneering techniques. I did offer an option to justME who seems to be asking the question of how to use a mitered frame on a top. In addition, it shouldn't take much mental acuity to figure out that if veneering a top with a mitered frame is a solution to prevent wood movement issues, then a top where breadboard ends are desired could also be done with veneer. 

As to your silly attempt to chastise me for some perceived affront, perhaps you should examine your own motives.


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## Spyko (Nov 3, 2007)

PK. said:


> Relative moisture content is the proper term for moisture within the wood, which is what causes wood movement. Relative humidity is the term for moisture in the air. This should be simple enough for most to understand.
> 
> I didn't set out to give a lesson on veneering techniques. I did offer an option to justME who seems to be asking the question of how to use a mitered frame on a top. In addition, it shouldn't take much mental acuity to figure out that if veneering a top with a mitered frame is a solution to prevent wood movement issues, then a top where breadboard ends are desired could also be done with veneer.
> 
> As to your silly attempt to chastise me for some perceived affront, perhaps you should examine your own motives.


Yeah, yeah, good for you. For the record: A breadboard end is a technical woodworking solution the the problem of covering end grain while allowing for wood movement. A veneered panel would not move as will solid wood and would (normally) not be in the same conversation with a breadboard end. So you see, you're way off topic and you're mixing issues. I'm glad you're not giving lessons on veneering or anything else as you don't seem to know what you're talking about. That's both sad (for you) and dangerous (for those reading what you write without knowing any better.) For the record, if you're building a top and using the same stock througout (very likely) then the moisture content of the wood will likely be the same throughout the top. So the humidity has nothing to do with it, and the moisture content of the lumber is not "relative" to anything really. The only reason to even bother to measure the moisture in the wood would be to decide how long to make the BB ends themselves.
My "motives" (which are quite simple to understand) are the fact that this is a thread that was started by someone realtively inexperienced with a particular technique and you decided that seeing yourself in print is more important than that. I'm embarrassed to admit that this post is equally off-topic, and I hope that the sheer entertainment value to others subscribing will outweigh my transgression. If it does not, I apologize.
I'll take my mental acuity and move on now. I'll not revisit this thread, so don't bother. Enjoy your day.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

Anyone who states, 

"So the humidity has nothing to do with it, and the moisture content of the lumber is not "relative" to anything really. The only reason to even bother to measure the moisture in the wood would be to decide how long to make the BB ends themselves."

has no business attempting to correct me. 

I understand that you're not aware that veneering a top that is framed or breadboarded is a time honored method that has been used thousands of times. I understand that you are one of those who has convinced himself of his own superiority. I have them apply for a job from time to time and then proceed to tell me that no one they've ever worked for "knew the right way" to build cabinets or furniture. That's okay.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I'd like to comment on a very interesting thread. We have jim386 and justME asking questions, and now as a result of differences, SPYKO has ridden off into the sunset, and PK is left holding his breadboard.

What is good about the back and forth differences in opinion is that through experiences, details of ones experiences come out which add to the information in question. What's bad is that it may get heated and one or more of the parties gets in a huff and sooner or later there's talk about how one was raised, and what kind of boots their mothers wear.

Now I can be yelled at for being off topic. If you do, I'll meet you in the parking lot in 15 minutes. Thought I'd bring up some news about the "experts" on forums. We have all kinds. But in order to maintain your "expert" status, you can't call names or shout at anyone. Every time you do, you lose a coupla points on your "expert" status. 

If you want to see what kind of troublemaker you are, go to: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm . Once there you can click on the drop down and check out the choices. Could be an entertaining read.


I've been involved in differences in opinion, and what works best is maybe not what you say, but how you say it. If you spent as much time planning a courteous reply as you do gettin' your facts together, there may be more harmony and sharing of information.

I will say one thing about what we expect from woodworking. I called on a "higher authority" who is ranked up there (it could have been Mother Nature herself), and the reply was that wood being a natural (at one time) living part of our universe will do exactly what it pleases. I was told to learn to deal with it.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

We are all at one time or another going to have differences of opinion on a forum like this. How you express your opinion is what can incite someones equally childish rebuttal.

It's okay for threads to morph or evlove or grow into something wider or even "off topic" a little. Hopefully the OP got his question answered, but threads inexorably ask other questions just by trying to offer answers. That's all okay. 

What usually makes a thread go south is not _what_ someone says but _how_ they say. 

We can do without the badgering and baiting, but if it happens, even though it is *very* difficult to bite your lip sometimes, that's almost always the wise course.

Now I will climb off my soapbox, and dip my hands in my resin box . . . .:shifty:


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## woodman51jfk (Dec 10, 2007)

.........love the link cabinetman, "all the way"!


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