# Radial arm saw?



## TroyMN (Nov 5, 2011)

Can you give me some input regarding adding a radial arm saw to my shop? I have a table saw but, I am not very proficient cross cutting long boards. My miter saw is only 10" non sliding so, less than 6" is all it can cut. 
Pros
Cons
Thanks
Troy


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

In my small shop, I use my ras (Red Star 30A) on most projects.
I use it to cut most boards to length, especially, since, I don't have room to cut a 8' board to finished length on my table saw.
It's also a great machine for cutting dados.
Craftsman ras's are "usable" but older turret arm Deltas, (and Red Stars) and Dewalt saws are in a different class. 

If buying a used ras, be sure the ways, the carriage ride on, are not worn out. I have heard on Dewalts, the ways can only be fixed, by machining, which is very expensive.
On my old Red Star, the ways are hardened rods, which can be rotated to an unworn spot, a lot of times. Mine show no signs of wear, and the carriage moves without play.
I think a ras is a good tool to have in a wood shop.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

+1 to what Pirate said.

RAS's have lovers and haters as I'm sure you'll find out. One advantage that Pirate didn't mention is that they are good for crosscutting rough-cut lumber, too, which can be hazardous on a table saw.

I have a 'usable' Sears RAS and a turret Rockwell that I am in the process of fixing up. Some of the Sears saws are better than others. Generally the older ones have a good reputation (and a longer cross-cut). Different saws have much different crosscut capacities. There are great deals to be found on RAS's if you look around.

The proper blade is key to safe operation on a RAS. Get one with a negative hook angle and the saw is less likely to dig in and come at you. Proper setup is important, of course, as is a dead-flat table. Look up Mr. Sawdust tables for more information about that topic.

Some guys don't use a RAS and swear by crosscut sleds on their table saws. I like my RAS for long crosscuts, though. Both are accurate but I think that the RAS is less awkward for handling long stock.

Bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yesterday...*

I had some 8 ft 1" x 6" RS Oak that need to be crosscut to salvage the good parts. I probably made 30 cuts or so. I used my Craftsman RAS with a 60 tooth Diablo blade which I leave set at 90 degrees only. It went great in less than 5 minutes all the piece were cut and with square ends. I would not be without one. :no: bill .... with a lower case "b"


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## TroyMN (Nov 5, 2011)

I found a craigslist add for craftsman ras. What should I look for specifically? It's $100, but "says" has a $80 blade "with DML gold carbide blade"? 
Thanks for you input.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Troy,

Along with the input you get from this site, take a look at www.vintagemachinery.org which has a photo index of many, many old tools (they also have a forum at www.owwm.org). If you look for Craftsman, then narrow it down to RAS's, you can see pictures and descriptions of different versions. IIRC, there is a big difference in crosscut capacity between newer ones and heavier pre-70's versions, the older ones having a longer arm.

In my neck of the woods, $100 would be a typical price for a used Craftsman RAS. Some go for more, some less. Mine is a ~1990 that I got new and I've had only one problem with it. The lithium grease used at the factory dried into paste and the mechanisms started sticking.

Also, some of the Craftsman models are subject to a recall where Emerson (the manufacturer) will send you a new table and guard, depending on the model, or they send you $100 if you send back the motor so they know it's been disabled. The safety problem was from ripping with the saws, which most guys here would recommend NOT doing (unless you really know your RAS techniques). The recall web site is: http://radialarmsawrecall.com/ and it's also a great source for saw manuals.

As far as what to look for on a used saw, make sure the motor is tight on it's arm and that there's no slop, especially where the motor is close to the fence. Obviously, make sure it runs well and cut some wood with it. Check for blade run-out (wobble) and check to make sure there's no slop in the arbor shaft. Make sure that everything that pivots does so and everything that should lock, locks and unlocks.

Bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

TroyMN said:


> I found a craigslist add for craftsman ras. What should I look for specifically? It's $100, but "says" has a $80 blade "with DML gold carbide blade"?
> Thanks for you input.


The price on the saws seems right.
As far as the blade, some blades are coated with a gold plating. Like this: Amazon.com: DML Woodworking 74060 Golden Eagle Trim Saw Blade w/ Dyanite - 10"D, 80T, 5/8" Bore, TCG: Home Improvement
So if that is in fact the blade on the saw, it is worth $100 alone.
Sounds like a good deal to me if all is working well. Even some looseness in the carriage can be adjusted out. Usually these saws were not "worn out" from use, since they often sat around without getting much use. The type of blade guard which leaves a lot of the blade exposed intimidated the users.
The RAS Safety Recall does have a much safer guard, if this saw qualifies...?  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

dodgeboy77 said:


> Troy,
> 
> Along with the input you get from this site, take a look at www.vintagemachinery.org which has a photo index of many, many old tools (they also have a forum at www.owwm.org). If you look for Craftsman, then narrow it down to RAS's, you can see pictures and descriptions of different versions. IIRC, there is a big difference in crosscut capacity between newer ones and heavier pre-70's versions, the older ones having a longer arm.
> 
> ...


+1. :yes: If there is room for the saw it's an invaluable too. They can be found cheaply. If you become familiar with the myriad of adjustments and things to check, the saw is basically easy to maintain. It is though, one of the most involved machines in a shop due to all the rotating, locking, pivoting, raising/lowering, and rolling going on.










 







.


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## TroyMN (Nov 5, 2011)

Well it was not what I was hoping for. Are there RAS specific blades? I either did not know to run a RAS or must feed the saw VERY slow. I tested the cutting and the first cut it jumped into the wood and stuck (hit kill swich ASAP)? Also I was disappointed in the height it (could not cut) could not even come close to a vertical 2x4 cut (3.5 inches).
So it appears if I am going to continue looking for a RAS I need a larger blade. I thought this one was 10" but my memory could be wrong. What thickness do they usually cut? I was thinking about a 10" sliding compound mitersaw? Maybe that would fit my needs.
I want to cut my 2x4's, 4x4's, ect and also 1" oak crosscuts to ?? 12 inches, or more?
I see another local add for a $100 craftsman and a menards add for El cheap-o- 10" $99 sliding compound miter saw. It will not get very much use. Higher end tools are not where I want to spend my limited money. I have other hobbies that need a cut of that fund.
Thanks Again for your earlier responses
Troy


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

TroyMN wrote: <<_ Are there RAS specific blades? I either did not know to run a RAS or must feed the saw VERY slow. I tested the cutting and the first cut it jumped into the wood and stuck (hit kill swich ASAP)? _>>

From Post #3 above: "_The proper blade is key to safe operation on a RAS. Get one with a negative hook angle and the saw is less likely to dig in and come at  you._"

And about 60 teeth for a 10" blade. Freud's LU 91 is excellent for RAS use: Amazon.com: Freud LU91R010 10-Inch 60 Tooth ATB Thin Kerf Miter Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor and PermaShield Coating: Home Improvement

Bill


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

TroyMN said:


> Well it was not what I was hoping for. .... Also I was disappointed in the height it (could not cut) could not even come close to a vertical 2x4 cut (3.5 inches).
> 
> Troy


Why would you want to make such a cut? There are very few cuts that can not be made on a RAS just by adjusting the position of the head. Even angled cuts through the width of the board can be done by tilting the head and cutting with the piece laying flat on the table. Shoot, I've even used mine to resaw 2x6 material that was over 48" long (not something I'd ever try again, but I did it once).

You have gotten the best possible advise on the blade type. Anything of 60 or more teeth and a negative hook will be an excellent blade. Even so the saw needs to be used with extreme care just like any other tool in the shop.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I spent about 3 hours reading about RAS.
The opinions seem to be.

Too Dangerous.
Obsolete
A very versitile tool that can do some, or many operations better then other tools.

I am forming the opinion, that the RAS is, or was, a not so good consumer product, not as bad as Lawn Darts though

Seems it is a machine that one should be using with common sense
.
And, that makes it a not so good consumer product, for the general population, that has very little common sense.

I think I want one:thumbsup:

What about this one,
http://kpr.craigslist.org/tls/2926268801.html


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It was over promoted*

It was advertised as the whole shop in one tool, can do everything machine. And for some folks who were willing to spend the time to set it up for those operations and took the proper precautions it was a very versatile machine.

The basic physics of the tool are it's an upside down table saw.
The blade enters the work from above rather than below the workpiece, which means the cutline line is visible, so you can tell what you're doing a bit easier.
It also means the entire blade is exposed rather than just what you need to cut through the work as on a table saw. If there is no safety guard, it's a lot more dangerous. A blade housing collects the dust around the RAS blade, whereas a safety guard covers the exposed portion of the blade and is made of clear plastic. 
The third and final difference is that the blade entering the work from the top causes it to lift off the saw table, unlike the table saw which tends to pull the workpiece down toward the table. If the saw is pulled into the workpiece which is the preferred manner of operation, the blade forces the work towards the fence. If the saw is pushed into the workpiece the blade wants to lifts the piece off the table and that's where the problems arise..... lot's of exposed blade and a moving workpiece. :thumbdown:

The blade housing is also used as a hold down by pressing the front of it down against the work lightly, it keeps the workpiece from rising off then table. This is especially important when ripping, the "forbidden" operation on the RAS. 
Ripping can be done safely if proper precautions are followed, but that wasn't and isn't always the case, and accidents happened. The other issue with ripping is that narrow pieces are confined to the space between the blade and the fence and there's not much room for a your hands or push stick and lots of exposed blade and that's when problems arise.

See this thread for a RAS set up for ripping 14 foot lengths:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/evil-machine-28461/

Finally, blade design has improved within the last 15 years and they have introduced the zero or negative tooth blade. This has the effect of pressing the work down towards the table rather than lifting it up as a positive hook would. They have become the standard for miter saw, chop saw, and RAS's.

All the attachments made for the RAS, the molding heads, surface planers, router and drill chucks also had to be properly set up with guards, jigs and guides to keep you fingers safely out of the cutters. The home owner/consumer was in a hurry and didn't always take the time to make those devices and that's when problems arose. 

AS with any tool that is promoted as a one tool shop, it will do certain tasks best and others not so well. The Shop Smith comes to mind, where it's an excellent lathe and horizontal drill, it's not a very good table saw because of the short fence and minimum table surface to support the work. It was promoted as a space saver and that is certainly true, but I never succumbed to that theory and have never owned one.
My table saw is a wide as I could make it and still fit it into the shop and is backed up by an out feed table equally wide and 5 feet to the rear. It's a joy to use when handling 4 X 8 sheets and when ripping longer lengths. Again it's about the physics involved...the work must be supported properly for safe operation. :yes: bill


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Most all of the metal working machines I own, or have used, have pretty much zero safety features.
The most time is spent on setup, at times maybe some hours, to make a couple minute cut.
Its in that short cutting time, when I have to be aware of what is supposed to happen, and what could happen.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

I'm going to weigh in here to say that I love mine, probably the most used machine in my shop. As Bill says it CAN be extremely versitile. In fact I used it as a drill press before I got the real thing (you can attach a Jacob's chuck to the opposite end on most of them).

I cut 2x4's on it all the time. Are you saying you are standing the 2x4 on edge? with the versitility of bevel and miter on a RAS I can't think of an operation that would require that.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Anyone have one of these old Dewalt 9" models?
There is at least 6 for sale here, under $200.
http://kpr.craigslist.org/tls/2926268801.html


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

The older 1950's DeWalts like the 9" MBF are very highly regarded for their accuracy and dependability.

Regarding the general safety of RAS's: Just don't rip with them and use a proper blade - then they are as safe as any other woodworking power tool, if not safer.

Bill


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## vinnypatternmaker (Mar 27, 2011)

*Ras*

Hi, Bills, #1 and #2!
It's no secret that Vinny and I like our RAS and Shopsmith V very much :thumbsup:!
Bill #1 has shared interesting and very useful 411 on both machines :thumbsup:! It is very appreciated, and his research and knowledge are formidable! And good history and advice, to boot :yes:! This from people that use these machines fairly often! Thank you!
Bill #2 sums up your research pretty well, *(ABC)...ALWAYS BE SURE AND CONFIDENT THAT YOU ARE UP TO THE TASK...Always Be Careful :smile:!*
Also, the Shopsmith V has a tilting table, not a tilting arbor...a bit too scary for us :huh:!
Thanx to all,
Marena


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## vinnypatternmaker (Mar 27, 2011)

*RAS 9 inch*



Benny Blanco said:


> Anyone have one of these old Dewalt 9" models?
> There is at least 6 for sale here, under $200.
> http://kpr.craigslist.org/tls/2926268801.html


 Hi!
Nice saw, however in our opinion...no guard, no go :thumbdown:!
Best,
Marena and Vinny


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, it appears to have been pre-retractable gard, but has a housing over the top of the blade. 
I have seen two very early models that look like they did not even have the housing at all, could not see how one would even attach, just the entire blade hanging out there.
I found one, like the one I linked to, that appears to be mounted on a factory cabinet ,full of attachments, one is a jigsaw.
I will look further into these older models, perhaps there is a better gard system, or I can maybe adapt something.


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

dodgeboy77 said:


> The older 1950's DeWalts like the 9" MBF are very highly regarded for their accuracy and dependability.
> 
> Regarding the general safety of RAS's: Just don't rip with them and use a proper blade - then they are as safe as any other woodworking power tool, if not safer.
> 
> Bill


I've used a Dewalt MBF in my shop for the last 4-5 years, and will never be without an RAS again. It replaced a Craftsman I had (my first stationary power tool) that went to the great recall. Stay with the Delta and older Dewalt saws (say, prior to 1965 or so) and you'll have a very useable tool well worth it's spot in the shop!


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## Clamps (May 10, 2012)

TroyMN said:


> Can you give me some input regarding adding a radial arm saw to my shop? I have a table saw but, I am not very proficient cross cutting long boards. My miter saw is only 10" non sliding so, less than 6" is all it can cut.
> Pros
> Cons
> Thanks
> Troy


Maybe I am confused so sorry if this sounds silly but if crosscuts are all we are talking about, wouldn't a cross cutting sled for your table saw be a suitable solution?


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

Clamps said:


> Maybe I am confused so sorry if this sounds silly but if crosscuts are all we are talking about, wouldn't a cross cutting sled for your table saw be a suitable solution?



A sled would work really well until you needed to cut say 4' from a 12' board. Then support becomes an issue. So you either support the board and cut using a hand held circular saw, or lay the board on the RAS table and cut in one easy step.


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## Clamps (May 10, 2012)

@johnie52
Alternatively, a sliding table attachment for the table saw would work just as well too. Granted, space for such an operation with a 12 footer might be prohibitive for a small shop, whereas not necessarily so with a radial. There's also the ol' lifting the piece up to the blade maneuver on a miter saw for the occasional extra wide cut. 

I don't know what the gentleman's needs are of course. I'm bowing out of here so you guys can have your radial talk


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Another point for the RAS when crosscutting: It doesn't mind long rough-cut lumber, even if it's twisted or cupped. Try cutting wood like that on a table saw and you could be looking for trouble.

Bill


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## bob sacamano (Jan 24, 2012)

forget RAS. why not get a jessem slider ? you can cut any angle long board short boards wide boards narrow boards. 

takes up less space than a RAS.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I have been reading up on these, I think I would find one useful for some operations.
Well, I do tend to like over complicated gizmos that require complex adjustments:blink:

The safety factor is a bit of a negative but, with due care in use, should be safe.

"Its got safety tubes, but I aint scared, brakes are good, tires fair"
Charlie Ryan "Hot Rod Lincoln"


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

For cross cuts just make a TS sled. 
Tom


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Though I am new to wood working, I am starting to run into the same problems I have had in my metal working.
I do a lot of metal lathe work, I use 3 lathes, one for just about every thing that comes up in a pinch, one of the same type for screw threads and fine finish turning, and a turret type lathe for making bushings, pins, and repair sleeves rapidly.

I am making musical instument speaker cabinets using box joints, finding that once I have the TS set up and dialed in for box joints, I screw something up, and or need to tear that down, to just crosscut a board, then have to set i_t up again for box joints._
_I have two choices for the quick fix, a RAS or another TS._
_I am leaning toward the RAS, because I can get one for less cost in mint condition, and will give me more time to decide on what TS to get in the future. I just have a contractors saw now, working good, but I would like to have a better saw thats easier to adjust and more stable._
_My time is limted, and its going to get worse as summer heats up, regarding the metal work that pays for this stuff._

_I will probably end up with 3 saws_


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I will probably end up with 3 saws.....*

That's good Benny, just make sure they can all be bolted together:


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

+:thumbsup: !


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## TroyMN (Nov 5, 2011)

Woodnthings, VERY nice set up!
I started this thread back in March, then put a update on the RAS I tested. I did not even remember it was _this_ thread where dodgeboy77 told me about the correct blade to use in a RAS. Thank You everyone for all the help you have offered. I did just purchase a saw. If it is a total dud dont tell me; yet, I need to enjoy my new purchase for a couple of days. It is a Rockwell model 12. I sawyes it out at a garage sale on Thursday $75.









Blades, it came with a 10" I want to buy a 12". I really like the price of the Onsrud. I am not the same class of woodworker as many of you. I really just think it would be good "SAFE" to get the correct type of blade on this machine, without spending the same as I did on the saw!

Onsrud MTR-12-126-80 12" Miter Saw Blade w/80 Teeth --$27
Item Description and Specifications:​ 
Diameter: 12"
Kerf: .126" 
Teeth: 80
Bore: 1.00"
Plate: .087"
Hook / Relief: -6 deg / 15 degree
Grind: ATB​ 
Onsrud MTR-12-126-96-1 12" Miter Saw Blade w/96 Teeth--$32​ 
Freud LU91R012 12" Diameter X 72t ATB Thin Kerf Sliding--$84​Delta 35-12100RN5-62 Full Kerf Saw Blade 12" x 100T USA --$60


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Good blade, great price!*

Onsrud MTR-12-126-80 12" Miter Saw Blade w/80 Teeth --$27
Item Description and Specifications: :thumbsup: bill
BTW I use a 60 tooth on mine, but 80 should be fine.
​


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

If that saw runs as good as it looks, you got a steal! Good luck with it! And your blade choice is good, too.

Bill


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## TroyMN (Nov 5, 2011)

Flaw in my plan, the Onsrud blade has a 1.00" bore, mine saw is 5/8". I looked for a 12" with the 5/8" but could not find it. Are theese clearance prices on Ebay? If spacers are available is that a good option or one that should be avoided?


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

There must be close to 200 RAS within 150 miles from me, just on craigs list! 2 like TROY has, 125 and $200.
There are some Delta models that appear to have an arm, with a central pivot.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*kinda hard to find a 5/8" bore X 12" blade*



TroyMN said:


> Flaw in my plan, the Onsrud blade has a 1.00" bore, mine saw is 5/8". I looked for a 12" with the 5/8" but could not find it. Are theese clearance prices on Ebay? If spacers are available is that a good option or one that should be avoided?


Here's some: http://www.carbideprocessors.com/worlds-best-37173-double-miter-saw-blades/ 

http://www.mo2ls.com/mm5/merchant.m...Product_Code=IW-30590AB1&Category_Code=TCTIWS

http://www.sears.com/tenryu-12inch-x-90-teeth-x-5-8inch-arbor-tenryu/p-SPM2235611603P


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Benny Blanco said:


> There must be close to 200 RAS within 150 miles from me, just on craigs list! 2 like TROY has, 125 and $200.
> There are some Delta models that appear to have an arm, with a central pivot.


The Deltas with the central pivot are the ones you want. 
A while ago, I read a comparison of ras's. One was a Delta turret ("central pivot") Another was a Original Saw Co (Bought Dewalt ras line)
They tested arm deflection, with force on the arm. The Delta was the winner. The OSC still had less than the typical scms.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for that Pirate! I will look more closely at those.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I was looking around at various saws and came across this redo of an old DeWalt, looks pretty sharp, I think.


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## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

<<_There are some Delta models that appear to have an arm, with a central pivot. _ >>

The Delta turret types and the early DeWalts are all supposed to be fine ol' arn and about as good as it gets in the RAS world.

TroyMN: Get a 1" to 5/8" arbor adapter bushing. People use them all the time. 

Examples:
Amazon.com: Freud BL71MCE9 1-Inch to 5/8-Inch Saw Blade Bushing: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Timberline BU-100 1" Bushing Reduced To 5/8": Home Improvement

Or you can get a whole 12 piece assortment of saw blade bushings at Harbor Freight for $2 that includes two of the size you need: http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-saw-blade-bushing-set-1444.html

Bill


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