# Laguna 3HP Leeson 220v Cable Plug Question



## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Am interested in purchasing a Laguna LT14 SUV bandsaw with the 3HP 220V single-phase motor. 

My problem is that after emailing Laguna about the amp draw of this motor, I was told that it would draw 30 AMPS!!! I think that is ridiculous, so I emailed Leeson with the same question. Their reply was to call them, which I have not had time to do. 

I did some web research and seems that others are not happy about this same subject for a number of reasons. In short, it seems that (1) the bandsaw does not come with a cord or (2), you have to ask to have the cord attached/included. For the premium price they get for these band saws I would certainly expect a bloody cord to run it.

I am in the process of wiring my new shop and if this beast does require 30A then this will require different wire (10/3) and the appropriate 220V/30A receptacle. I have always used 12/2 for all of my 220V machines. That said I want to know what I will need before hand.

If anyone can shed some light on this plug question I will be most grateful.

Off topic: My new shop has passed final inspection and the stucco crew will be here bright and early to apply to color coat. Then i will be done with all the hard working building crews. Well, ... most of them anyway. We still have to have two wing rock walls built - one on each side of the garage door side and then a bit more concrete work, then final clean up. So, okay, I spoke too soon - there still is a bit of work to be done, but we're getting close.


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## Treeoflifestairs.com (Jan 9, 2012)

I do not have experience with that band saw but I bought a Laguna dust collector and was quite unimpressed with its build quality. I had been looking to them for some of their other tools and have since given them a second thought.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

chicago said:


> Am interested in purchasing a Laguna LT14 SUV bandsaw with the 3HP 220V single-phase motor. My problem is that after emailing Laguna about the amp draw of this motor, I was told that it would draw 30 AMPS!!! I think that is ridiculous, so I emailed Leeson with the same question. Their reply was to call them, which I have not had time to do. I did some web research and seems that others are not happy about this same subject for a number of reasons. In short, it seems that (1) the bandsaw does not come with a cord or (2), you have to ask to have the cord attached/included. For the premium price they get for these band saws I would certainly expect a bloody cord to run it. I am in the process of wiring my new shop and if this beast does require 30A then this will require different wire (10/3) and the appropriate 220V/30A receptacle.


In my area 30 amps calls for 10 gauge wire, but the electrical drawing for this bandsaw only calls for 2 conductors so I would expect to be installing 10-2. 











Also not sure why you would consider it to be ridiculous that a 3 horsepower motor would draw that much power. If you want more watts and your voltage is constant it is going to take more amps. 

When choosing your outlet just select one rated for 240+ volts and 30 amps. I prefer the twist lock style on my equipment like this:
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Wir...eptacle-Black-DISCONTINUED-L630R-L/203492598/


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't know. They really do recommend a 30 amp breaker. http://www.lagunatools.com/bandsaws/bandsaw-lt14suv# That's an awful lot for a 3hp motor. I imagine that only occurs when doing some heavy resawing. It's suppose to have 14" resaw capibility. 

Are you sure you really want the saw. According to California it causes cancer. :laughing:


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't know. They really do recommend a 30 amp breaker. http://www.lagunatools.com/bandsaws/bandsaw-lt14suv# That's an awful lot for a 3hp motor. I imagine that only occurs when doing some heavy resawing. It's suppose to have 14" resaw capibility.
> 
> Are you sure you really want the saw. According to California it causes cancer. :laughing:


30 amps is indeed a lot of amps for a 220V 3HP motor, which is my concern. It is my understanding that a 30A circuit requires 10/3 wire while a 20A only requires 12/2 conductors. I want to get this right before the drywall goes up.

Thanks for your help.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Several factors come into play here - Starting current, running current, type of motor overload protection. For example, 30 amp breaker on #10 wire IF the motor has integral overload protection, IF the circuit is dedicated motor circuit, etc. Contacting an electrician with motor circuit expertise is recommended. Here's a reference that may shed some ligh:
http://www.rm-electrical.com/publis...nical-information/motor-motor-current-charts/


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

I would expect the larger circuit is specified to also address voltage drop issues. 

The circuit you are installing should be sized to meet the specifications of the load. 

As to the 10-3 question, where do you intend to land the red wire?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*somebody is goofy*

30 AMPS at 230 volts will run my 5 HP Powermatic Table saw all day long. A 3HP motor only needs 20 AMPs and I have all mine about 10 of them, on that size circuit.

See the AC single phase motor section on this page:

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I can't see a 220V 3hp motor drawing anywhere near 30A.220V draws half the amps that 110V does.There are 3hp motors out there that run on 110v and draw less than 20 amps.


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## Paarker (Mar 20, 2013)

It really doesn't cost that much more to run a 10 gauge wire then a 12 gauge wire then you could what ever size breaker on it you want. 30 amp 20 amp it really doesn't matter. Just don't go larger then 30 amp.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

*Thanks to all for the great info*

Sorry for my slow reply, but I have been tied up in the new shop (with the stucco crew) until this moment.

I feel that I have reached a good and safe wiring decision for the Laguna and my other 220V tools: 

I will wire my North and East walls with 10/3 wire for all the 220V receptacles which will be connected to twin 30A breakers. Only one of these receptacles will be of the 30A twist-on variety, specifically for the Laguna. The remaining receptacles will be the 20A variety which match the plugs of the rest of my 220V tools.

My East wall will also have a 220V circuit, but this is dedicated solely to my new Jet Vortex vac, which will go outside my shop in an covered shed not yet built. This vac will run when any of my other saw dust making tools are running which is why I prefer to have it on its own unshared circuit and not chance tripping any breakers while in use. I have the breaker space, so this will work fine.

The new shop is shown below. The facing (or sunlit) side is the North side and the shaded side is the East side. The 16 ft garage door is on the South side. Shop size is 24'x28'. Lots of work yet to do before I can call it done. 'Done', may just be a figment of my imagination.

Thanks again to all for the great comments and feedback.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

mako1 said:


> I can't see a 220V 3hp motor drawing anywhere near 30A.220V draws half the amps that 110V does.There are 3hp motors out there that run on 110v and draw less than 20 amps.


Thanks for your comments. You and I are on the same page. 

I suppose it is possible for a 3HP, 220V motor to draw 30A, but a user would have to put a heck of a load on his machine to do that. It has always been my understanding that all things being equal, a 220V motor will draw approximately half the amperage that a 120V motor will under the same circumstances.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

FWIW, my PM66 with 3 HP Baldor, 230v, shows 15 amps on the name plate. Maybe Laguna wants you to have a 30A circuit in place but I doubt the motor pulls that much current.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

mako1 said:


> I can't see a 220V 3hp motor drawing anywhere near 30A.220V draws half the amps that 110V does.There are 3hp motors out there that run on 110v and draw less than 20 amps.





chicago said:


> Thanks for your comments. You and I are on the same page.
> 
> I suppose it is possible for a 3HP, 220V motor to draw 30A, but a user would have to put a heck of a load on his machine to do that. It has always been my understanding that all things being equal, a 220V motor will draw approximately half the amperage that a 120V motor will under the same circumstances.


You would be surprised what a 3HP motor can draw. I think what's confusing people is startup vs. running current. A typical 3HP motor will draw in the neighborhood of 18 amps @ 240 volts. However, on startup it can draw 6 to 10 times that for a brief period. Running it on a 20 amp breaker will most likely trip it. 

At 18 amps (full load), a #12 wire is about the limit - remember that a 20 amp circuit should be designated for an 80 % load by design, or about 16 amps. However, the motor most likely will not be drawing the full 18 amps unless loaded to the max, which is not normally the case with our ww machines. 

So the #12 wire, unless an extremely long run, will work OK. However, the 20 amp breaker won't, which is why it is permissible to use #12 on a 30 amp breaker for _DEDICATED MOTOR CIRCUIT._ If anything else other than the motor is on that circuit, even if not in use simultaneously, the wire must bump up to #10.



mako1 said:


> I can't see a 220V 3hp motor drawing anywhere near 30A.220V draws half the amps that 110V does.There are 3hp motors out there that run on 110v and draw less than 20 amps.


To the best of my knowledge, no true 3 HP motor will run on a 120 volt 20 amp circuit. At 120 volts, the full load current will be well over 30 amps, and the startup current at a minimum 100-200 amps.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

I find it interesting that looking at the SawStop Pro Model, their 3HP, 1ph, 230V motor only draws 13A (see page 35 of manual.pdf here). They also recommend a 15A plug or the NEMA 6-15P plug, which IMO, is pretty dicey. I would much prefer the 20A version or the NEMA 6-20P.

As I mentioned earlier, seems that 10/3 with 30A breakers and the appropriate plugs/receptacles is the safest way to go for 220V machines.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What is blowing everyone away about the 30 amps is who has a 3 hp piece of equipment that draws 30 amps and doesn't compress air?. Not me for sure. Both the table saw with a 3hp motor and shaper with 3hp motor I have are both less than 20 amps. If it was 115 volts it would make more sense. It must be the load from resawing. Theres hardly any startup load getting two wheels turning. 

As far as the wiring for the saw all you need for 220 is two 10ga. hot wires in opposite phase with each other and a ground wire. The machine would run with just the two hot wires. The ground is for safety. Also you get better power using straned wire than solid wire. How far is your shop from the breaker box. There may be voltage drop issues.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Alchymist said:


> Contacting an electrician with motor circuit expertise is recommended.


+1. :yes:

















.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> What is blowing everyone away about the 30 amps is who has a 3 hp piece of equipment that draws 30 amps and doesn't compress air?. Not me for sure. Both the table saw with a 3hp motor and shaper with 3hp motor I have are both less than 20 amps. If it was 115 volts it would make more sense. It must be the load from resawing. Theres hardly any startup load getting two wheels turning.
> 
> As far as the wiring for the saw all you need for 220 is two 10ga. hot wires in opposite phase with each other and a ground wire. The machine would run with just the two hot wires. The ground is for safety. Also you get better power using straned wire than solid wire. How far is your shop from the breaker box. There may be voltage drop issues.


I sincerely appreciate all of your comments.

I believe there are a few issues here with regards to 220V plugs:

(1) If the Laguna will indeed require 30A that is fine. However, a 220V/30A plug is different from a 220V/20A plug. The Laguna will require the 30A plug;

(2) The 30A plugs (those that I have seen anyway) require 10/3 wire - 2 hots, neutral and a bare ground. The 20A plugs only require 2 hots and a ground as you pointed out.

That said, this is why I plan on using 10/3 wire for my 220V circuit. This will allow me to satisfy the needs of both the 30A plug and the 20A plugs with the same wire.

As to your question - I have an 80A breaker box in my shop. I spec'd 100A, but that is another story. I can get by with the 80A, no problem. My shop is only 24'x28' so wire runs are short, 70'-75' at most. The four 120V circuits will all be strung with 12/2 wire.

I hope this makes sense to you.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

chicago said:


> I find it interesting that looking at the SawStop Pro Model, their 3HP, 1ph, 230V motor only draws 13A (see page 35 of manual.pdf here). They also recommend a 15A plug or the NEMA 6-15P plug, which IMO, is pretty dicey. I would much prefer the 20A version or the NEMA 6-20P.
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, seems that 10/3 with 30A breakers and the appropriate plugs/receptacles is the safest way to go for 220V machines.


Nominally 1 HP = 746 watts, so 3 Hp = 2238 watts, which at 240 volts = 9.3 amps. This is a very conservative estimate, to which must be added the mechanical inefficiencies of the motor itself. A lot depends on motor design, so there are many variations. Some of the old 1940-50s motors would draw a running current that varied little from no load to full load. Agreed on the 20 amp plugs. I usually figure 1 HP is the breakover point for 120 volt operation, and that on a 20 amp circuit. Anything larger benefits from a 240 volt circuit.




Steve Neul said:


> What is blowing everyone away about the 30 amps is who has a 3 hp piece of equipment that draws 30 amps and doesn't compress air?. Not me for sure. Both the table saw with a 3hp motor and shaper with 3hp motor I have are both less than 20 amps. If it was 115 volts it would make more sense. It must be the load from resawing. Theres hardly any startup load getting two wheels turning.
> 
> As far as the wiring for the saw all you need for 220 is two 10ga. hot wires in opposite phase with each other and a ground wire. The machine would run with just the two hot wires. The ground is for safety. Also you get better power using straned wire than solid wire. How far is your shop from the breaker box. There may be voltage drop issues.


Nitpicking, but - startup load is determined by the inertia of the motor and drive train, and while it is almost instantaneous, the starting current can spike to quite high levels; as I stated before, 5-10 times running current.

Power wise there is no discernible difference between stranded and solid wire of the same gauge.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> What is blowing everyone away about the 30 amps is who has a 3 hp piece of equipment that draws 30 amps and doesn't compress air?. Not me for sure. Both the table saw with a 3hp motor and shaper with 3hp motor I have are both less than 20 amps. If it was 115 volts it would make more sense. It must be the load from resawing. Theres hardly any startup load getting two wheels turning.
> 
> As far as the wiring for the saw all you need for 220 is two 10ga. hot wires in opposite phase with each other and a ground wire. The machine would run with just the two hot wires. The ground is for safety. Also you get better power using straned wire than solid wire. How far is your shop from the breaker box. There may be voltage drop issues.


Electrical advice should be from a real electrician. But, this is the internet, and no matter how many times there are warnings about getting advice from just anybody, there are those that keep asking the questions. 

















.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*My 3 HP Grizzly bandsaw ....*

The operator's manual for this saw states the power requirements and plug type on page 4 of this PDF:
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g0514xf_m.pdf#page=4&zoom=auto,-31,752
:smile:

20 AMPS and NEMA 6-20, 14 GA wire , 3 conductor.

Each new 3 HP machine I have purchased, about 6 in the last few years, has come without the plug. It is "assumed" that the owner/operator will follow the instructions within the manual regarding the plug and power supply. The manual also states that a "qualified electrican be consulted for proper circuit size" and includes other grounding and current draw requirements. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

chicago said:


> I sincerely appreciate all of your comments.
> 
> I believe there are a few issues here with regards to 220V plugs:
> 
> ...


Yes with 30 amps you need 10 gauge wire but a 20a plug could get hot and burn on you. There are 30a three prong plugs you could use. https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...ptacles/Leviton/2620/product.aspx?zpid=161635

The reason you don't use a neutral with a 220v motor is on a 110v motor you have one hot wire and a neutral to make the circuit. On 220v since it is alternating current the wires go from positive to negative and back. Then when one wire is positive the other is negative so the motor uses only the hot wires for the neutral because when one wire is hot the other is negative. You could just hook up the two hot wires to the saw and the motor would run. The only other wire needed is a ground wire which hooks to the body of the machine to protect the operator from shock. It's like the bare wire on a 110v line. 

I imagine the problem you are having with the plug is it is more of an industral plug and the box stores just cater to the homeowner. If you would to to a electrical supply house I'm sure they could fix you up. 

If you have 80 amps in your shop of that size you should have no problem supplying the saw using a 10ga wire. Then like I said earlier it works better with stranned wire. What I've been told the electrons pass over the outside of the wire so more electrons can pass over all the little strans better than a single wire.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes with 30 amps you need 10 gauge wire but a 20a plug could get hot and burn on you. There are 30a three prong plugs you could use. https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...ptacles/Leviton/2620/product.aspx?zpid=161635
> 
> If you have 80 amps in your shop of that size you should have no problem supplying the saw using a 10ga wire. Then like I said earlier it works better with stranned wire. What I've been told the electrons pass over the outside of the wire so more electrons can pass over all the little strans better than a single wire.


A 20 amp plug is adequate on a 3hp motor. As to stranded wire being better - solid wire (romex) is for surface mounting, fairly stiff, and anchored in place. Stranded is used in conduit, easier to pull, more flexible. As to the electrons, yes, they will choose to use the surface of a conductor - at 100 - 1000 Mhz and above, as they are moving so fast they get anxious and want to stay near the light. At 60 Hz they are so slow and lethargic they just don't care where in the wire they are, they just keep moseying on. As I said before, no difference in stranded and solid at the same gauge.

Many 3hp motors are running on #12 with a 30 amp breaker, many welders run on #12 with a 40 amp breaker..... you just have to know the circuit conditions. Now, with that said, I do believe in overkill, so a #10 with the 30 amp breaker is what I would use. In fact, that is the circuit in my garage; both the 16" planer and the shaper use a 20 amp plug. All is well.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

OK, guys - do your own calculations. Here's the nitty gritty:
http://www.ced-columbia.com/IC-AT001A-EN-P (Aug.2012).pdf

Pgs 21, 29, 48. and 62-65 most relevant.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the purpose of a breaker*

The breaker is important because it protects the wiring not the motor, which may have it's own overload protection. The wiring must not be allowed to draw more current than it's rated capacity, and the breaker must be sized accordingly OR a fire may result. 

The breaker and the wiring and motor must be "compatible". That is, a larger wire can be used from the breaker, but not a smaller one to carry the current required by the motor.
A larger breaker can be used than the motor requires, but it must also have the larger rated wire.
Start up current is always greater and is instantaneous, so a surge will not trip the beaker which often allow for brief surges to prevent unnecessary trips.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7599350_size-electric-motor-circuit-breaker.html

more specific info here:
http://ecmweb.com/ops-amp-maintenance/troubles-dialing-proper-circuit-breaker-protection


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The breaker is important because it protects the wiring not the motor, which may have it's own overload protection. The wiring must not be allowed to draw more current than it's rated capacity, and the breaker must be sized accordingly OR a fire may result.
> 
> The breaker and the wiring and motor must be "compatible". That is, a larger wire can be used from the breaker, but not a smaller one to carry the current required by the motor.
> A larger breaker can be used than the motor requires, but it must also have the larger rated wire.
> ...


Not necessarily. There are numerous instances where a breaker larger than the normal size for a given wire is allowed. Examples are motors and welders. The trick is to know what is allowable and what isn't.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the tricks...*



Alchymist said:


> Not necessarily. There are numerous instances where a breaker larger than the normal size for a given wire is allowed. Examples are motors and welders. *The trick is to know what is allowable and what isn't*.


Probably beyond the scope of this discussion.... :yes:


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Alchymist said:


> OK, guys - do your own calculations. Here's the nitty gritty:
> http://www.ced-columbia.com/IC-AT001A-EN-P (Aug.2012).pdf
> 
> Pgs 21, 29, 48. and 62-65 most relevant.


Thanks for the link to the .pdf.

I think most of us take a lot of these electrical 'things' for granted when we probably should have a deeper understanding of the motor's that power our tools. This knowledge could possibly keep us from scratching our heads when we trip a breaker or worse yet, smoke a motor or start a fire.

I sincerely appreciate the help.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

30 amp, 30 amp? The breaker is there to protect the wire not the equipment. No inspector around here would let you put a 12 gauge wire in a 30 amp breaker. You are safe using 10 gauge wire with a 30 amp breaker.
Tom


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

TomC said:


> 30 amp, 30 amp? The breaker is there to protect the wire not the equipment. No inspector around here would let you put a 12 gauge wire in a 30 amp breaker. You are safe using 10 gauge wire with a 30 amp breaker.
> Tom


And you base this conclusion on what? 
Breaker sizes for motors, welders and A/C units follow different rules than other branch circuits. So to say #12 on a 30 amp breaker is wrong, is, well, wrong.

If the circuit is dedicated to a motor it very well may be legal for #12 to be on a 30 amp breaker. A single phase motor on a dedicated branch circuit can have an ovecurrent device rated at 300% of full load current, in the case of our 3 HP motor, a 30 or even 40 amp breaker. That said, you do gotta follow da rules!


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Alchymist said:


> And you base this conclusion on what? Breaker sizes for motors, welders and A/C units follow different rules than other branch circuits. So to say #12 on a 30 amp breaker is wrong, is, well, wrong. If the circuit is dedicated to a motor it very well may be legal for #12 to be on a 30 amp breaker. A single phase motor on a dedicated branch circuit can have an ovecurrent device rated at 300% of full load current, in the case of our 3 HP motor, a 30 or even 40 amp breaker. That said, you do gotta follow da rules!


I base it on what an inspector here will let you get by on. If it's a wall plug how can one say it's dedicated to a specific piece of equipment. Anything that the plug fits can be plugged into it. I would only consider it dedicated if it was wired directed without a plug.
Tom


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

TomC said:


> I base it on what an inspector here will let you get by on. If it's a wall plug how can one say it's dedicated to a specific piece of equipment. Anything that the plug fits can be plugged into it. I would only consider it dedicated if it was wired directed without a plug.
> Tom


I do believe NEC says if it's a single outlet, labeled as such, it's considered "dedicated". Seen lots of 240 volt outlets labeled "For Welder Use Only". Most inspectors have no problem with this. Have you actually seen an inspector fail one as such?

While I don't have a current NEC book handy, one provision for welders (Article 630 in the older books), states "Conductors that supply 1 or more welders shall be protected by an overcurrent device rated _at not more than 200% of the conductor rating_". So a #12 wire can be breakered at 40 amps max. What you consider and what's allowed may not always be the same. Just sayin. :blink:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Alchymist said:


> A 20 amp plug is adequate on a 3hp motor. As to stranded wire being better - solid wire (romex) is for surface mounting, fairly stiff, and anchored in place. Stranded is used in conduit, easier to pull, more flexible. As to the electrons, yes, they will choose to use the surface of a conductor - at 100 - 1000 Mhz and above, as they are moving so fast they get anxious and want to stay near the light. At 60 Hz they are so slow and lethargic they just don't care where in the wire they are, they just keep moseying on. As I said before, no difference in stranded and solid at the same gauge.
> 
> Many 3hp motors are running on #12 with a 30 amp breaker, many welders run on #12 with a 40 amp breaker..... you just have to know the circuit conditions. Now, with that said, I do believe in overkill, so a #10 with the 30 amp breaker is what I would use. In fact, that is the circuit in my garage; both the 16" planer and the shaper use a 20 amp plug. All is well.


Under most situations a 20a plug would be adequate for a 3hp motor but this machine is specked out for 30 amps. I think all of the electrical parts should be rated for 30 amps in this case. I don't get your point about the stranded wire. If stranded wire is a better conductor of electricity how could it not be better for machinery than solid wire. In this situation this machine seems to be pushing limits.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> And you're resorting to name calling again. Look up what 'troll' means before you start calling people that. Specific electrical advice should come from an electrician. You're not that. Are we all to just assume your information is credible? This is a woodworking forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not all electrical information needs to come from an licensed electrician. This scenario fits right in with the type electrical work customers are hiring me to do and I have a lot of first hand experience with it. If I didn't think I was up to it I would not have responded to the question.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Under most situations a 20a plug would be adequate for a 3hp motor but this machine is specked out for 30 amps. I think all of the electrical parts should be rated for 30 amps in this case. I don't get your point about the stranded wire. If stranded wire is a better conductor of electricity how could it not be better for machinery than solid wire. In this situation this machine seems to be pushing limits.


OK, bottom line is we need to see a picture of the actual motor data plate. I really doubt that a 3 hp motor is going to draw 30 amps running. Startup, yes, probably 50-100 amps, but only for seconds. This is the reason NEC allows 30 and 40 amp breakers on #12 wire.
30 amps X 240 Volts = 7200 watts, divided by 746 = 9.6 theoretical HP. I really don't thing the motor is that inefficient.

As to stranded vs solid wire - stranded is not a better conductor than solid at 60 Hz, provided the gauge is the same. At 60 Hz copper is copper, and the resistance per foot should be the same, so the voltage drop and the current capacity should be the same. As I stated earlier, skin effect doesn't come into effect at 60 Hz.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> Not all electrical information needs to come from an licensed electrician. This scenario fits right in with the type electrical work customers are hiring me to do and I have a lot of first hand experience with it. If I didn't think I was up to it I would not have responded to the question.


That's fine and dandy. You're liable to your clients, where you can be held responsible both civilly and criminally. Members here don't have that luxury.

















.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*all this bickering is not helpful*

Any liability if there that remote possibility, is covered by this statement under the Original Post:

*Warning:* The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. WoodWorkingTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!


If anyone follows the advice given here whether electrical, structural, safety, the use of power tools etc..... etc., and gets injured, I doubt if there would be any civil action .... all the jury needs to hear is 
"I saw it on the Internet" ..... CASE DISMISSED.:yes:

Anyone who chooses to respond to a post should not be chastised by another whose opinion may differ. There is no need for attacks of a personal nature, they are not helpful and degrades the whole thread and WWT as as a community. JMO. Just respond with your opinion and leave the responses of others alone.

The use of volatile solvents in paint strippers, and spraying finishes, and power tools and their various operations can always result in serious injury. As much as we have used our tools and sprayed finishes does not make us an "expert" only "experienced". Experts have doctors degrees and long titles behind their names. I am certainly not an expert in any thing, but I do have a lot of experience which I enjoy sharing freely here...just sayin'. :yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Any liability if there that remote possibility, is covered by this statement under the Original Post:
> 
> Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. WoodWorkingTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!
> 
> ...


Well said, Oby Juan KaWooden.

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> That's fine and dandy. You're liable to your clients, where you can be held responsible both civilly and criminally. Members here don't have that luxury.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally I started off hiring electricians in my remodeling business but they did such bad work I had to go behind them and correct the work they did before the electrical would pass building inspection. They often used the wrong guage wire because it was what they had on their truck. One electrician wired all the outlets in an addition without connecting the ground wires. Another electrician installed a sub-panel in a building seperate from the house and failed to install a ground rod. Then there was numberous other repairs I've had to make done by electricians which very nearly caused a fire. Just because a person hires an electrician doesn't mean the job will be done correct. A person that hires an electrician better know what is right and wrong and double check the work. The bottom line though is a person going to a forum asking questions has already decided to do the work themselves. Do you help them or let them take their best guess or jury-rig something. I think it's better to give them all the information you have. In this case the OP already had the wire size and breaker worked out. It was just a matter of a plug which the box stores don't sell. When do you draw the line getting an electrician. I bet you get one to change light bulbs for you.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Alchymist said:


> OK, bottom line is we need to see a picture of the actual motor data plate. I really doubt that a 3 hp motor is going to draw 30 amps running. Startup, yes, probably 50-100 amps, but only for seconds. This is the reason NEC allows 30 and 40 amp breakers on #12 wire.
> 30 amps X 240 Volts = 7200 watts, divided by 746 = 9.6 theoretical HP. I really don't thing the motor is that inefficient.
> 
> As to stranded vs solid wire - stranded is not a better conductor than solid at 60 Hz, provided the gauge is the same. At 60 Hz copper is copper, and the resistance per foot should be the same, so the voltage drop and the current capacity should be the same. As I stated earlier, skin effect doesn't come into effect at 60 Hz.


OK, I just found this (it did take some doing, trust me) on Leeson's website. This is the spec sheet for the 3HP, 220V motor that I asked Leeson about. Here it is.

The F.L. amp draw is 13A!! This is a far cry from 30A's. If you look at the second to last section from the bottom it says: 

*Current (amps) 13 (Full Load)*

That tells me that this motor does not draw 30 amps as the Laguna folks are saying. Question still remains - why is Laguna suggesting that we run this BS on a 30A breaker??

I also found the data plate from a 1.75HP Leeson motor (from Rockler website advertising the Laguna BS) as seen below. If you look carefully, at 230V the amp draw is 7 amps. If we double all of that to generate approximate data for a 3HP 230V motor that would give us 14 amps, which is still in the ball park of the spec sheet for the 3HP motor above.

Not certain that any of this is going to resolve the receptacle issue, but it may help.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

OK, now we're getting somewhere. 13 amps is a reasonable number. #12 wire will be adequate. The 30 amp breaker is recommended for initial start up current, which can be quite high, and most likely cause a 20 amp breaker to trip. Now, with that said, to use the 30 amp breaker on the #12 wire, it should be a dedicated circuit - used for nothing but the band saw or another similar motor driven tool. If you want a multi-purpose circuit, go with a #10 wire. I usually wire any 240 volt circuit with a three wire setup, as it can then be utilized with either a load requiring only two conductors, or one requiring the neutral as well. (Requirements can change over time). Your call.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think the 30a breaker was do to the load data at the bottom of that page. At one and a half the normal load the saw could draw 19.08 amps. I imagine some folks were loading it down even more and complaining about tripping breakers. 

I was taught to keep the power use within 80% of what the line was rated at and to get 19.08amps you might as well go with the 30a service.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Another likely reason Laguna recommends a 30A breaker is because they don't want hundreds of calls from people tripping 20A breakers when they start the saw. They know that if there's a major electrical malfunction within their saw a 30A breaker will trip just as quickly as a 20A breaker, so recommending a 30A breaker covers them both for liability and service/support calls.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I think the 30a breaker was do to the load data at the bottom of that page. At one and a half the normal load the saw could draw 19.08 amps. I imagine some folks were loading it down even more and complaining about tripping breakers.
> 
> I was taught to keep the power use within 80% of what the line was rated at and to get 19.08amps you might as well go with the 30a service.


While there is nothing wrong electrically with using #10 wire with the 30 amp breaker, two points:

1) the 80% load rule is for continuous load - lights, heaters, etc. The band saw will present an intermittent load.

2) Overloading the motor to 1.5 times it's rated current will result in one of two things, either tripping the thermal overload, or drastically shortening motor life.

Bottom line, the 30 amp breaker recommended is correct, the wire can be either #12 or #10, depending on user's desires and pocketbook, (and/or #10 if there is an extremely long run to the saw).


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*Here's The Point*

Is it bickering when all the respondents don't agree on anything? It's bickering when the 'experts' continue to impose their facts to prove their point. I don't find it necessary to have warnings reiterated, when they are clearly posted in the forums for all to read. 

I don't find it improper to offer suggestions to get proper guidance, and if it needs to come from an electrician...so be it. That sounds like good advice to me.

I do find it improper for those to chime in as a backup no matter what their buddies say. I do find it improper to ridicule other members with impolite innuendos. Stories bashing 'real electricians' to make the assumption that a non electrician is more capable and knowledgeable than a licensed one, are unnecessary. 

So, where do threads like this usually go. They proceed with as many different answers for the same question as there are posters. That can be said is the drift to any forum. But, in the long run, the OP could be as baffled after all the help as when it all started. It gets obvious that the help differs in 'opinion', which may be factual or not.

I've got as much right to offer my opinion in a response to seek professional help, as those that consider themselves an 'expert', and offer their opinions. Making rude comments aren't contributory to threads. I mean well and take safety seriously.

If anyone has a need to make comments, PM me and we can mutually discuss the issues, outside of this thread.


















.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Alchymist said:


> While there is nothing wrong electrically with using #10 wire with the 30 amp breaker, two points:
> 
> 1) the 80% load rule is for continuous load - lights, heaters, etc. The band saw will present an intermittent load.
> 
> ...


On this particular saw I would consider it a continuous load. This machine is engineered for resawing up to 14". This could put a pretty good demand on power resawing a piece of wood 14" wide and 8' long.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Alchymist said:


> OK, now we're getting somewhere. 13 amps is a reasonable number. #12 wire will be adequate. The 30 amp breaker is recommended for initial start up current, which can be quite high, and most likely cause a 20 amp breaker to trip. Now, with that said, to use the 30 amp breaker on the #12 wire, it should be a dedicated circuit - used for nothing but the band saw or another similar motor driven tool. If you want a multi-purpose circuit, go with a #10 wire. I usually wire any 240 volt circuit with a three wire setup, as it can then be utilized with either a load requiring only two conductors, or one requiring the neutral as well. (Requirements can change over time). Your call.


What you have described is precisely what I planned on doing. The 30A breaker will handle to start up current and the 10AWG wire will handle the load.

I watched all the Lagune video's I could stomach this weekend, but never found one that even mentioned the wiring possibilities. No problem, I think I am on the right path.

Thanks for your help.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> Everyone already knows you like electricians. How many times do you have to say the same thing?
> 
> The only thing improper here is you attacking me for giving my opinion.


I asked any comments be made in a PM, and not in this thread.

















.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

difalkner said:


> Another likely reason Laguna recommends a 30A breaker is because they don't want hundreds of calls from people tripping 20A breakers when they start the saw. They know that if there's a major electrical malfunction within their saw a 30A breaker will trip just as quickly as a 20A breaker, so recommending a 30A breaker covers them both for liability and service/support calls.


That makes sense, but it would help if Laguna would just come out of the closet on this and save a lot of us from spending time trying to get it right (and keep temper's from flying!). 

Most of us know that 220V motors normally draw one-half the current that their 120V cousins do, which is an admirable characteristic. But, in this case, Laguna recommends just the opposite which is confusing to say the least.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The only real difference is the cost of running the wiring. It never hurts to go bigger with the wire and since they recommend 30a appearantly their engineers have determined the saw can handle it. They sure couldn't void the warranty if you provided 30a service with that recommendation. It really is odd they are so vague with info on wiring.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> The only real difference is the cost of running the wiring. It never hurts to go bigger with the wire and since they recommend 30a appearantly their engineers have determined the saw can handle it. They sure couldn't void the warranty if you provided 30a service with that recommendation. It really is odd they are so vague with info on wiring.


Well the OP is sure not concerned over cost, He has stated he is going to run an extra conductor for no reason.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Ttharp said:


> Well the OP is sure not concerned over cost, He has stated he is going to run an extra conductor for no reason.


It's called pre-planning for the inevitable. :laughing:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

chicago said:


> What you have described is precisely what I planned on doing. The 30A breaker will handle to start up current and the 10AWG wire will handle the load.
> 
> I watched all the Lagune video's I could stomach this weekend, but never found one that even mentioned the wiring possibilities. No problem, I think I am on the right path.
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Dang Dad this is going to be a great saw as soon as we all get it wired for you.  I for one will be looking for your next thread on the saw after it zipped through some wood. I couldn't be more green.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Ttharp said:


> Well the OP is sure not concerned over cost, He has stated he is going to run an extra conductor for no reason.


Travis
It could be he is making the same mistake I make and is counting the green wire. So freshmen of me.

Al


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

with the exception of a work light, to be sure is there any other equipment on this saw? 

looks like you have 3 choices: 

1. place a call or email to laguna questioning their 30a spec
2. just going with the 30a circuit, all the way (safe) 
3. going with a 20 a circuit (not recommended - i wouldn't go against mfr spec until clarified)


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

Spoke to a Leeson Motor rep - they make the motor's that Laguna uses: in brief, the Leeson guy had no idea why Laguna required the 30A circuit for their bandsaw. He said, that they know their own tool, so it would probably be best to follow their lead. He also went on to note that even at 150% load that motor would still only draw 19 amps. At FL, it draws 13 amps. IMO, this did not clarify why Laguna requires the 30A circuit. Insurance?? I have yet to get Laguna to clarify this. Last email I received from Laguna (Benny Helshoj), was promotional material for their 1412 bandsaw. I wanted info on their LT14 SUV, not the smaller 115V machine. If this is what their support is going to be like, I may opt out for a Rikon and forget Laguna.

Also spoke to a just-retired electrican yesterday and he pointed out the correct 30 amp receptable to use - Leviton 5207. He also said the 10/2 wire I had previously purchased would be just fine for this as this receptacle does not require a neutral. I'm taking his word and feel that I will now be protected against the start-up amperage surge that this 3HP motor is claimed to have. He also was knowledgable about the start-up amperage surge, which made me comfortable. I think I am now good to go.


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## chicago (Jul 5, 2012)

TimPa said:


> with the exception of a work light, to be sure is there any other equipment on this saw?
> 
> looks like you have 3 choices:
> 
> ...


Thanks! Good advice.


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