# A finishing job I will never forget..



## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

I did a coffee table a while back that I was pretty nervous about even looking at the table for she had 10 other companies tell her "No Way and they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.."..it was a $10,000 table that an older lady had bought 30 years ago.. I did a blog on it and rather than re-writing the whole story, you can read about it off this link, but I will tell you all this..it really opened up my world to high end finishing and I haven't looked back since, but I have to confess..I was very nervous about attempting this in the first place..

http://randallalanfurniture.squarespace.com/blog/2011/10/27/finishing.html

thanks for reading and feel free to tell me what you all think..

Randy


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> I did a coffee table a while back that I was pretty nervous about even looking at the table for she had 10 other companies tell her "No Way and they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.."..it was a $10,000 table that an older lady had bought 30 years ago.. I did a blog on it and rather than re-writing the whole story, you can read about it off this link, but I will tell you all this..it really opened up my world to high end finishing and I haven't looked back since, but I have to confess..I was very nervous about attempting this in the first place..
> 
> http://randallalanfurniture.squarespace.com/blog/2011/10/27/finishing.html
> 
> ...


LOL, to bad i didn't know you then, i could have had you make up a sprayable >amalgamator< to lay out the finish and re-knit the cracks, then all you would have had to do is apply some fresh coats over the top and sand and polish. But you did a good job under the circumstance. :thumbsup:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

heh heh heh..I always seem to find out too late, but in my defense..I really tried to get those cracks to fuse together..but believe it or not..they went all the way to the veneer..not sure, but does that matter if I had used your amagamater? I would love to know how that works?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> heh heh heh..I always seem to find out too late, but in my defense..I really tried to get those cracks to fuse together..but believe it or not..they went all the way to the veneer..not sure, but does that matter if I had used your amagamater? I would love to know how that works?


Hi Rac, Yes a true amalgamator does soften the whole finish up to the wood if it is an "evaporative type finish" Lacquer,acrylic, shellac, etc.. Wont work on what is deemed " oxidative or conversion finishes" Those such as conversion varnishes, cat finishes, etc., will not redissolve in their original solvents or other diluents used to make them, in a fast way.

If sprayed on a non-reactive coating, which most, but not all nitrocellulose lacquers are, it actually melts the whole finish and knits it back together. Now the hard part, you may have to wait a week or more and even apply it more than once if the damage is much and the finish is thicker than normal oK? Yes, it takes that long to really dry back out! and usually picks up dust or bugs unless you have a nice drying area for it and decent ventillation, Which we did. 

What is "MOST" important is to test a small area of the finish, 6 sq. " or so, just to be sure that it is not one of the reactive types of nitrocellulose lacquer, which will crinkle/wrinkle/blister/etc., the finish ok? One such animal is Sherwin Williams moisture resistant lacquer which has a reactive alkyd as a secondary resin. 

If, within an hour or so of testing, you see no signs of reactions, then it's a safe bet, [unless other areas have been touched up with other aerosol coatings,], that the amalgamator will do the trick!!

PS: if there are aerosol areas that react, after a week or so you can sand those areas off since they are top surface only coatings.

The first thing you will notice once it is applied and set for awhile is that the finish "swells" before going into its liquid stage much later.

Wow, gotta run, will get back when i can sorry.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

"a true amalgamator does soften the whole finish up to the wood if it is an "evaporative type finish" Lacquer,acrylic, shellac, etc.. "

So the word is "almagamator." Thank goodness. I was beginning to think this whole thread was a joke.

I could make no sense of anything with the word "amagamaor" used. 

Using the spell checker does help.
George


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Your finish looks terrific. $10,000 for a table with a faked inlay and machine carvings, 30 yrs. ago, I think the customer added a zero. The original surface looked like crazed lacquer where too much was put on, a fairly common mistake.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> "a true amalgamator does soften the whole finish up to the wood if it is an "evaporative type finish" Lacquer,acrylic, shellac, etc.. "
> 
> So the word is "almagamator." Thank goodness. I was beginning to think this whole thread was a joke.
> 
> ...


Sorry george, was in a hurry had to go and got to long winded lol. the "error" is fixed, please "frogive" my lack of using a >"spellcker" < lol :yes: - ooopppsss!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> heh heh heh..I always seem to find out too late, but in my defense..I really tried to get those cracks to fuse together..but believe it or not..they went all the way to the veneer..not sure, but does that matter if I had used your amagamater? I would love to know how that works?


sorry "amalgamator":yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Hammer1 said:


> Your finish looks terrific. $10,000 for a table with a faked inlay and machine carvings, 30 yrs. ago, I think the customer added a zero. The original surface looked like crazed lacquer where too much was put on, a fairly common mistake.


+1.:yes: It does look like that. With a veneer, I doubt I would be sanding off the finish. If necessary chemically stripping would be better than sanding. All that's needed is to perforate the veneer, and that's a big problem.

I found by trial and error years ago that on lacquer finishes, adding retarder to a slow lacquer thinner and spray on will melt in the existing finish. No real secret there.










 







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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Well, there we go, no need to continue my discussion, Cman has given you the answer, good luck on your finishing journey onword RAC, :yes::thumbsup:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

I had considered using a stripping solution, but I knew that if it somehow dripped down onto the sides..I would be trying to fix that too..I had the old finish sanded off within an hour or so.. having veneering experience,..I knew if worse came to worse..I could actually create a new veneer skin using the same species of veneer as existing, but I would have added the black string inlay instead of painting..

as for the cost of the table..I did look to see if the company was still around and they were, and inquired as to a cost for the table new,..I have to agree that their price was overkill but regardless..I would have had to buy another one if I had screwed this up beyond repair


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## oldgoat (Sep 16, 2011)

Hey what do you mean by you glazed it right before you waxed it. A glaze to me is like colorant added to linseed oil or like an over the counter glaze. great work by the way. I totally relate to just two coats sanding sealer and one coat of lacquer topcoat without a booth. I want to do work like that table.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

looks like it could have been a Burnheardt piece, or maybe a grand rapids one also, Kindel maybe, any names on it Rac?


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Chemmy....yes.. it was a Kindel.. wow.. you are GOOD!!! how did you know that??? LOL

oldgoat...glazing to me, is when I used 3M glazing compound and a sponge disc on my polisher to rub out the finish more..then I used wax and a lambskin bonnet on the polisher to buff it to a high gloss sheen


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Chemmy....yes.. it was a Kindel.. wow.. you are GOOD!!! how did you know that??? LOL
> 
> oldgoat...glazing to me, is when I used 3M glazing compound and a sponge disc on my polisher to rub out the finish more..then I used wax and a lambskin bonnet on the polisher to buff it to a high gloss sheen


I was employed there as a finisher back in 1974-6, first all around person they ever hired, most were just a one pony show, meaning they knew how to do one specific operation but did it extremely well, that way the company's there could continue to keep their wages low, but in time they found out that that didn't work that well. to many people out sick or whatever. so they hired me to fill in all areas where needed, so i did,lol. 

It was good experience for learning how manufacturers did the work as compared to a small shop etc.. They came out with that line in the 80's, if i remember right, long after i left. My work was mainly on the mahogany line called the "kentwood" finish. and another i can't remember the name of which was a figured maple in a raw umber dye and stain. One thing they did to keep everything uniform was to 2 part bleach every single piece. so everything was white before the clears and fillers and colors were applied, that is why when there stripped there is no or very little color on the wood itself. Interesting, but something i would not personally do on my own. But i must say the uniformity was flawless!! 

I also worked for Jayne's&Luth, Mastercraft, Widdicomb, and finish design for Baker,Napp,& Tubbs, and a few others. That was my real introduction to the world of "high end/High priced] Furniture. A Widdicomb night stand back then was $3,500.00, Mostly for the name, but also for the cabinet work and the best fancy veneers available at the time. Though Baker had by far, the absolute finest veneers in the industry, due to one man who could look at a log and just know before it was cut into veneers how beautiful it would be, amazing!

So even though i personally would not have paid that much for a table, or anything else, it was a real status symbol for the rich, to have any of the top brands there or also Karges in Indiana and a few in N.Y. also. Like Smith&Watson etc..:yes:

PS: what mainly gave it away, was the type of cracking it had due to "hot lacquer" applications. I've seen that on almost all Grand rapids work from the 60's-early 80's. Though they were not the only user's of the material.


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Unbelieveable!! wow!! now I'm really glad you posted on my blog.. heh heh heh.. it's not often I meet someone who's been out there and know's his stuff.. boy..am I gonna learn alot from you..

can you tell me just what caused the lady's finish to crack when she put whatever she put on it? why would it do that? I would love to tell her that I met someone who worked for the company that made her piece and knew what happened..


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Unbelieveable!! wow!! now I'm really glad you posted on my blog.. heh heh heh.. it's not often I meet someone who's been out there and know's his stuff.. boy..am I gonna learn alot from you..
> 
> can you tell me just what caused the lady's finish to crack when she put whatever she put on it? why would it do that? I would love to tell her that I met someone who worked for the company that made her piece and knew what happened..


Can't really say rac, tell me more? was this something that happened quickly a one time application, or over all the years? Normally the cracking happens from age and loss of platisizers, since i did not see any gunk or anything else. only you would know if thats the case?

The cracking, as i say, comes with age and starts out very fine and elongates from there, if your not keeping an eye on it taking place, it is easy to not notice it till it gets worse. In my mind, this is probably the case. But if you have more info for me to go on, just let me know ok? :thumbsup:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

to be honest with you..she didn't say.. all she said was she went to clean it with something and after she did..it cracked..I cannot imagine what she could have possibly used that could have done this outside of a furniture polish. I even asked her if it was by a window and if the sun hit it everyday for I know that the sun can crack a finish if exposed to it daily. she is well into her 80's and perhaps she didn't know it was happening all along until it really got bad.. After I stripped it..I added some coloring to my post cat conversion varnish and did a tone coat to give it the cookie edging that it has..then built up a series of coats..the one big thing I hate about solvent based conversion varnishes is the shrink back it has.. after about a month..it really shrinks back and show's any imperfections..so I switched to waterbased finishes ( but not on this table)..it's not as bad, but in my opinion.. I don't think the waterbased finishes get as hard as the solvent based finishes


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> to be honest with you..she didn't say.. all she said was she went to clean it with something and after she did..it cracked..I cannot imagine what she could have possibly used that could have done this outside of a furniture polish. I even asked her if it was by a window and if the sun hit it everyday for I know that the sun can crack a finish if exposed to it daily. she is well into her 80's and perhaps she didn't know it was happening all along until it really got bad.. After I stripped it..I added some coloring to my post cat conversion varnish and did a tone coat to give it the cookie edging that it has..then built up a series of coats..the one big thing I hate about solvent based conversion varnishes is the shrink back it has.. after about a month..it really shrinks back and shows any imperfections..so I switched to waterbased finishes ( but not on this table)..it's not as bad, but in my opinion.. I don't think the waterbased finishes get as hard as the solvent based finishes


There definitely not as hard in the same amount of time that a solvent base would be, for sure. The chemistry lacks for a good long term finish. coalescing finishes in time will crack worse than even your table, i had some samples of first and second generation ones the crumbled into pieces within a few years, but they are much better now, even so, they will not endure as long as, let's say, a first class Nitrocellulose with optimum plasticizers would. you can expect the newer ones to have about a 25-30 year life at most, as compared to nitro at 50+ years, if both are well maintained. 

As to what she used, wouldn't have been polish unless she keeps it in the deep freeze, lol. To shock a coating to crack like that immediately, would take something very hot on a very cold surface, not likely, or very cold on a hot surface to cause such. But lemon oil or creamulsive polishes like guardsman or Oz, would not affect it in such away or others that i know of like pledge or endust etc.. Pretty sure at her age she just was not looking closely enough in the right light to catch the cracking that was taking place. Then, when she did, it seemed to her that it did take place at the time. :yes:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Ok now in your opinion..if I am doing a very high end piece and I want the finish to really last.. which would you recommend for optimized durability and longevity? it would have to be a finish that does not require a chemist license to buy but a furniture maker


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Ok now in your opinion..if I am doing a very high end piece and I want the finish to really last.. which would you recommend for optimized durability and longevity? it would have to be a finish that does not require a chemist license to buy but a furniture maker


LOL, I cant think of any finish out there on the market that would require a Chemist "license" to buy Rac. Look at it this way, there are two main types of coatings, The "custom formulated" types for factories, and the open market ones that can be purchased off the shelf, so to say, meaning standard finishes that are made in bulk for the general buyer. 

For example, back in the 70's Martin Guitar was using Sherwin Williams custom lacquers on their most prestigious D-45 and 35, dreadnought guitars, as well as most others. This system was Made in conjunction with a common stipulation clause known as a "material performance guarantee" Which boils down to meaning that if the system had any problems that caused problems of any kind, SW would be responsible not only for replacement of the products but lost time, labor, overhead, overtime, etc., as well as cost for advertising, and other cost. Even when i worked in the factories this was also true. 

Under these circumstances, you had better believe much more time and effort went into the testing and formulating of specialty coatings of this nature.:yes: The loss to gain ratio has to stay at most 1 to 99. With off the shelf standard products, there is still a lot of time put into their formulation, but they are made for normal overall standard accepted coatings chemistry rules. They pass all the test for "general" performance, and are then marketed with no guarantee to the end user who's use of it may not be used in accordance to their recommendation's. 

So unless something like bad batching occurs, where something was left out or put in by mistake or carelessness, the products usually have a pretty consistent working parameter for the end users. You either like it or you don't, for a myriad reasons that you personally have as you compare everything out there that interest you. 

On the custom ones, in order for a coatings company to even start to make up a stand alone coating, there has to be on your side a contract to purchase so many drums per month,year, or longer, for them to even start on it. At Mueller's contract furniture when i was there, Guardsman demanded a contract for at least 10 drums a month, to formulate their then new [1981] "super lacquer" which was a very early post cat nitro/alkyd amino type coating that was incredibly tough and scratch resistant and chemical proof to lots of things. 

The sad/bad part was that it was nearly impossible back then to make an invisible repair, when damaged, it was still possible to scratch with briefcase feet and fittings, and other damages. But this was not guardsman's fault, they gave them "exactly" the features they asked for and more. It's just that there is no bullet proof finish, that can have all the necessary and needed parameters such as easy repair or reversal also. Do you see my point? Thus, there eventual discontinuance of the product's use, when the contracted lot amounts were used up.. 

Which now brings us to your main question, what my opinion is of the best finish to use for long term requirements. My answer is, As long as evaporative finishes, [shellac,nitrocellulose,acrylic, vinyl] are sold, these are the ones i will continue to use!!!!!

For certain segments of our coatings field, i will also, when justified, use the best 2 component [2K] urethane's out there, along with both linear polyesters and branched ones, depending on the individual needs at hand. I rarely use polyurethanes, and never on high end work! Not that there bad per say, but have to short of a life for my taste. And outside of testing and personal use for obtaining results info, along with a couple of stints for big company needs due to EPA requirements, I "never" personally use any Coalescing finishes! [water/aqueous] types, no matter how many more generations keep coming about, as to improvements, it's just bad chemistry for anything but maintenece coating work.

So i'm sure some on here will argue or have objections to my comments,:thumbdown: but that's ok, like i say, it's "my" personal likes based on all i know of in this feild. 

Hope this helps, 

Chemmy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> Which now brings us to your main question, what my opinion is of the best finish to use for long term requirements. As long as evaporative finishes, [shellac,nitrocellulose,acrylic, vinyl] are sold, these are the ones i will continue to use!!!!!
> 
> Foe certain segments of our coatings field i will also, when justified, use the best 2 component [2K] urethane's out there, along with both linear polyesters and branched ones, depending on the individual needs at hand. I rarely use polyurethanes, and never on high end work! Not that there bad per say, but have to short of a life for my taste. And outside of testing and personal use for obtaining results info, along with a couple of stints for big company needs due to EPA requirements, I "never" personally use any Coalescing finishes! [water/aqueous] types, no matter how many more genrations keep cming about, it's just bad chemistry for anything but maintenece coating work.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, you are entitled to your opinion. Whether a product lasts 35 years or 50 years is sort of splitting hairs. Use, care, and maintenance can have a lot to do with the longevity of a finish.

A finish can be considered purposed for many reasons. I prefer to provide maintenance free finishes, as I can't expect a client to maintain an oiled finish, or to periodically apply wax. It's enough just convincing them to keep Pledge put away.

I remember some things, but not much, from college chemistry courses. And talking about the make up of certain finishes to give myself credibility isn't in my nature. I can only talk in common terms of common products that the average hobbyist has access to and can remember. I've used many types of finishes, and have favorites for what to use them on.

Shellac is easy to use, and looks good, but IMO lacks the durability and protection that some applications require. For film finishes, nitrocellulose lacquer can be applied and still leave the feel and look of the grain, or be applied to look like glass, where the surface is slick. It's a durable finish, as is polyester lacquer. 

For the hobbyist, an oil base polyurethane wiped on can provide a nice durable finish. What is represented is having a suitable finish that a DIY'er can apply, considering skills, work area, and expense. Safety is another issue. Some finishes are very toxic. For that reason, I had to find an alternative coating.

So, IMO, there are waterbased polyurethanes, that when applied correctly are as durable as lacquer. Now, you don't have to agree with me, and I expect you won't. I've laid down a lot of it in the last 25 years, and it looks as good and performs as well as when it was finished. Some are excellent. Automobiles, flooring, furniture, and heavy use items are being coated with it. So, you can badmouth it all you want...I think it's here to stay. 










 







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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

racfurniture said:


> oldgoat...glazing to me, is when I used 3M glazing compound and a sponge disc on my polisher to rub out the finish more..then I used wax and a lambskin bonnet on the polisher to buff it to a high gloss sheen


We all have our own methods, and one of my quirks is that I don't use wax for anything in the shop. I've tried the wax/buff routine, and it's a temporary feel, that needs periodic attention. I guess if it's for personal use and you like the feel, that's all that counts. 

For doing furniture for a client, I prefer a 'maintenance free' finish. The piece gets delivered, and that's it. No directions on how to apply and buff out the wax. Wax precludes doing any further finishing without the PITA of removing ALL evidence of the wax.










 







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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

OK..Chemmy..I fully understand what you are saying and after using both the lacquers, shellacs, and pre/post cat. Lacquers..it had been brought to my attention that the solvent based finishes are being phased out due to EPA issues..so I'm not sure where that will leave us.. I have always liked the post cat. Varnishes where I added the catalyst and felt the durability And protection properties were good where I have been using as of late the General Finishes high performance waterbased finishes with a crosslinker added for additional hardness.. my only issue with the solvent based is the shrink back after a month has gone by and the waterbased while it does shrink some..not nearly as much..I think personally the hardness offered by the solvent base, as well as the "clearness" meaning I think the solvents just look clearer to me than the waterbased..but I'm also fully aware that alternative finishes are going to be needed due to the scarce availability of the solvent based finishes very soon..


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Cabinetman.. I guess what got me doing the wax polishing was after the one time I delivered a piece and the client ran her hand over it and commented that it didn't feel soft but a little rough..that roughness was from a raw, out of the gun finish, loaded on the truck and delivered..there was no rub down nothing..(this was years ago) and ever since..its only after the customer ran their hands on it and I could clearly see their faces light up and comment just how smooth and buttery it feels that I know it is worth the effort to do my rub out and wax..this is just me and my own personal gratification knowing I hit a high note with a client..because referrals and repeat work for them is the greatest compliment I can get from them..and it does seem to really help..


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Chemmy.. just which finish do you use? Or do you use different finishes (nitro Lac's, pre/post cat lac's etc for different applications? I do know that on regular nitrocellulose lacquers..water can penetrate them such ad a water ring from a glass..where post cat. Varnishes can protect against it..is there such a "go to, all around finish you use for your fine furniture? Or does it depend?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

C,man, negative remarks or as you say "badmouthing" is only because of my use and tests of them, nothing more. Like you, i started using and testing them in the early 80's starting with Amity who were selling Hydrocoat with their label at the time, from there when hydrocoat pulled their product from amity and started selling it direct, i tried several of their products. As others [2nd generation] came about, i still held out hope that the improvements in additives and wetting agents would make them more viable. Disappointment was the same on both supported and unsupported films, in testing.


The last i tried was in the early 2000's 2004/5, They had better performance but still lacked the qualities of solvent based coatings. In testing, they still, on the unsupported films, would dry unevenly, meaning some areas would give up their water content in unequal amounts, putting undue stress on the film which continued to lead to the final decomposition of the dried film which would then eventually [1-2 years] crumble into pieces, It was from this work and the results of supported films also ranging from 1 mil dry to 15-20 mils dry that showed there true nature and the [what i term ] short life of them. 

This does not mean that they are not "usable" or have what is necessary to perform certain functions in our or other closely related trades such as automotive or plastics applications. It simply means [for me], that i don't want to apply them to "my" customer's objects, and have them fail, without being readily able to be removed, redissolved, or easily repaired to look like new again. 

Here again, keep in mind, that like Rac, on this top, my work has almost always been on high end furnishings for wealthy people, who, though willing to pay the large sums i charged, also expected the finest work that was producible in return. If your career, or others here, has been more in the faster less time consuming or quick finishing arena, then i can see where just about any coating would be acceptable for 10 or more years of wear and tare, so to say, with emphasis on those occasional pieces that may pass your way, and i understand that. Economics of business require such, no problem. I however did not have that problem, or seldom, where quickness was part of my concern as to success in this field. 

But, If you and others find them the answer to your prayers, lol, then by all means use them as much and as often as you wish, recommend them to your hearts content, it doesn't bother me, it's just that i don't agree. I will tell you for the last time, I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else, But if for whatever your reasons for disliking my comments are, i know what I'm talking about OK? In fact i have a few pics i will post on my home page album today or tomorrow, as i have time, showing the affects of unsupported coalescing films, and there final stage of decomposition, OK? They are of hydrocote polyurethane finish named "polyshield" this would have been the late 80's. sorry but that is all i have, but enough to give you an idea of what i talk of here. 

Feel free to view at your leisure - or not. :yes::thumbsup:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> OK..Chemmy..I fully understand what you are saying and after using both the lacquers, shellacs, and pre/post cat. Lacquers..it had been brought to my attention that the solvent based finishes are being phased out due to EPA issues..so I'm not sure where that will leave us.. I have always liked the post cat. Varnishes where I added the catalyst and felt the durability And protection properties were good where I have been using as of late the General Finishes high performance water based finishes with a crosslinker added for additional hardness.. my only issue with the solvent based is the shrink back after a month has gone by and the waterbased while it does shrink some..not nearly as much..I think personally the hardness offered by the solvent base, as well as the "clearness" meaning I think the solvents just look clearer to me than the waterbased..but I'm also fully aware that alternative finishes are going to be needed due to the scarce availability of the solvent based finishes very soon..


It will leave you in the same boat as the rest of the finishing industry. I'm retired, so it won't affect me personally, and by all means, if you want to use them be my guest, but i wouldn't stop using your cat finishes or others till the time really comes where they say "no more!" solvent based finishes, period. Those firstly to be affected will be the big boys not the small shops as usual, which should still give you years yet before the final hammer falls, IMO .


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Chemmy.. just which finish do you use? Or do you use different finishes (nitro Lac's, pre/post cat lac's etc for different applications? I do know that on regular nitrocellulose lacquers..water can penetrate them such ad a water ring from a glass..where post cat. Varnishes can protect against it..is there such a "go to, all around finish you use for your fine furniture? Or does it depend?


Well, i have used them all as well as specialty coatings, and yes, it definitely depends on the job at hand and what the company or client is looking for. I have spent a good deal of my time educating my customer's in what types of performance each coating is able to give in any circumstances that are needed. It's always a game of explaining things like if you use this it will give you the best hardness, but you will give up so and so in return. I always try to lead them into choosing a coating of Evaporative finishes if possible just because, as everyone knows, sooner or later damages will be incurred. 

Yet, there are times, like I've told you before, when it is most appropriate to go with a cat finish or 2k urethane or polyester, or linear polyurethanes like "Imron" if the project requires it. So there is no "set in stone" coating type that truly fits all occasions. 

For now, i use only shellac and other alcohol soluble resins, including acrylics and AS or SS types of nitrocellulose all of which i can pad, spray, brush with the proper additives, But if for some reason a job was to come about, out of thin air, like one i did last year for a friend of my son's, i would not hesitate to use what ever was called for. :yes: 


Sincerely,

Chemmy


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

OK..Chemmy..how can I minimize shrinkback on the solvent based conversion varnishes? Like I said..I really like them..but the shrinkback kills me..I have a beautiful English walnut burled radial veneered table that although after I first rubbed it out..was perfect..but as the months went by..the shrink back now shows any and all seams that were not there after the first week after spraying..as the solvent burned off over time..they became visible..I suppose I can just re-rub it out but for customers..that's not so easy..and would be embarrassing for me to have to go back to their house and explain and try and fix it


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

I did a job for a designer a few years back..it was a black stained desk..and I sprayed 4 good coats of post cat. varnish, and after I was done..about a week and half later..he called me..the receptionist who was a very large woman was sitting in the chair and swiveled around and the back of the chair really marred a good part of the edge.. he was complaining that the finish was not durable and should have withstood the accident.. it was post cat!.. it was the most durable finish I could find..was I right? Or is there something stronger and more durable out there that's available to a one man shop like me?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> Here again, keep in mind, that like Rac, on this top, my work has almost always been on high end furnishings for wealthy people, who, though willing to pay the large sums i charged, also expected the finest work that was producible in return. If your career, or others here, has been more in the faster less time consuming or quick finishing arena, then i can see where just about any coating would be acceptable for 10 or more years of wear and tare, so to say, with emphasis on those occasional pieces that may pass your way, and i understand that. Economics of business require such, no problem. I however did not have that problem, or seldom, where quickness was part of my concern as to success in this field.
> 
> But, If you and others find them the answer to your prayers, lol, then by all means use them as much and as often as you wish, recommend them to your hearts content, it doesn't bother me, it's just that i don't agree. I will tell you for the last time, I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else, But if for whatever your reasons for disliking my comments are, i know what I'm talking about OK?


No I gotta say you aren't argumentative. Your innuendo's more than compensate for the lack of arguing. But to think your end is/was higher than someone else is just talking down to the crowd. With all due respect, you can beat on your chest all you want. 










 







.


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Chemmy..say you got commissioned today, to spray a $100,000 piece..a raw piece. Newly made..and it had to be a gloss, high polished finish..what would you use? Which brand and what set up that's commercially available to furnituremakers?


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Please folks..no arguements here..everyone's opinions count..cabinetmans..yours too.. this isn't a debate..its a gathering of information from anyone who wants to have their say about what works best for them.. Chemmy..obviously has many many years of testing and experience under his belt..my hunch is he was a consultant and did many tests to see what worked and what doesn't..Cabinetman..you seem to be someone who makes a living doing this everyday..so your opinion is valuable to me as well.. please everyone..there's more than enough hash flinging on all Tue other woodworking websites and that's why I left..it was petty.. I want everyone to feel that their opinions and experience counts..


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Cabinetman.. you too.. if you got commissioned to spray a $100,000 piece..what would you use?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> OK..Chemmy..how can I minimize shrinkback on the solvent based conversion varnishes? Like I said..I really like them..but the shrinkback kills me..I have a beautiful English walnut burled radial veneered table that although after I first rubbed it out..was perfect..but as the months went by..the shrink back now shows any and all seams that were not there after the first week after spraying..as the solvent burned off over time..they became visible..I suppose I can just re-rub it out but for customers..that's not so easy..and would be embarrassing for me to have to go back to their house and explain and try and fix it


If for some reason i had to use conversion varnish as the top coats, and wanted to stop the shrinkage issue, i would use a polyester clear for the first 2-3 coats, let that cure, then sand smooth and apply first a cat vinyl, then CV over top of this. Once the polyester has cured and leveled their is no more shrinkage, therefore what ever coatings, be it CV, 2k urethane, lacquer, vinyl, etc., it will remain just as flat as the polyester beneath. Just make sure to build the max allowable [usually around 5 mil for CV's] so you have room to sand and polish the topcoats, after they have fully cured and shrinkage is complete ok?
The other thing is no matter what finish you use is to spray the edges first and allow to flash off for several minutes before putting a full coat on the top. By going around the edge of the top first, you increase the thickness of the edge film somewhat. If you do this with every coat, and several are being applied, such as with lacquer, the reward will be not being able to cut through the edge as readily as with out this step ok? :yes:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Is polyester finish available still? Who makes and supplies it in California? I have not seen it but haven't looked for it either..


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Please folks..no arguements here..everyone's opinions count..cabinetmans..yours too.. this isn't a debate..its a gathering of information from anyone who wants to have their say about what works best for them.. Chemmy..obviously has many many years of testing and experience under his belt..my hunch is he was a consultant and did many tests to see what worked and what doesn't..Cabinetman..you seem to be someone who makes a living doing this everyday..so your opinion is valuable to me as well.. please everyone..there's more than enough hash flinging on all Tue other woodworking websites and that's why I left..it was petty.. I want everyone to feel that their opinions and experience counts..


I agree and have made that point on many of my post here, thanks Rac. :thumbsup:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Chemmy..say you got commissioned today, to spray a $100,000 piece..a raw piece. Newly made..and it had to be a gloss, high polished finish..what would you use? Which brand and what set up that's commercially available to furnituremakers?


LOL, well i cant think of a 100,000.00 singular piece i have done. but we can for instance talk of yacht interiors that easily fall into that category for instance and even more. 

There i was using clear polyester to build and 2K urethane's for the final coats, leaving out the need for a vinyl intermediate. The brand was called "Duratech" which was made right there in California, though I'm not sure if their still in operation there or not? I started using that system in 82, and though trying many others mostly 
Italian brands, i found nothing as good or at least no better. The 2K was a modified for better elasticity, rubbed extremely well and gave great depth to the wood surface, it was from Delta labs in Florida. 

As to set up, i used a Devilbiss Primer pro gun with a 1.4 fluid tip and No. 5 air cap. Since Poly sets up very fast i used mostly a Teflon lined cup also for ease of cleaning in between coats. For shop work i had a poly-pro plural component, set up dedicated to the polyester alone. A 5 gal. agitated paint pot for the 2K. and a Devilbiss color-pro with a 1mm fluid tip and needle, same air cap. For occasional one off jobs, just stick to a cup guns.:yes:

PS: if you click on my photos or name you can see a chickering piano i did the same way, that was only a 15,000 dollar finish on a estimated value of 35,000 insurance cost piece though lol.


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

I have a binks hvlp with a 2 gallon pressure pot..the 1.4 tip..

I don't know what the 2k is..what is it?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> I have a binks hvlp with a 2 gallon pressure pot..the 1.4 tip..
> 
> I don't know what the 2k is..what is it?


Sorry Rac, it is two component urethane, the best are a 1 to 8 mix, 8 parts acrylic polyol to 1 part urethane catalyst. or 1 gallon of AC polyol to 1 pint of cat ok?


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

Interesting..is this stuff still available? Any chance you know who carries it still?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> I did a job for a designer a few years back..it was a black stained desk..and I sprayed 4 good coats of post cat. varnish, and after I was done..about a week and half later..he called me..the receptionist who was a very large woman was sitting in the chair and swiveled around and the back of the chair really marred a good part of the edge.. he was complaining that the finish was not durable and should have withstood the accident.. it was post cat!.. it was the most durable finish I could find..was I right? Or is there something stronger and more durable out there that's available to a one man shop like me?


Rac, stronger, more durable, heat resistant, waterproofness, alcohol/chemical resistance, or others are ever variable terms in properties. What I'm saying is, to get one or more in areas, you have to give up other qualities. If you want a harder finish for example, you will have to lessen the elasticity aspects of the coating. Therefore increasing the chances for cracking when expansion or contractions of the wood occur, do you see what i mean? 

I can assure you no matter what you would have used on the edge of that piece, the only difference there would have been the varying amounts of damage, but damage would have occurred, as i say there are no "bullet-proof" coatings out there for wood or most any other substrates. One of the first things i do, if a customer shows great concern for protecting the finish of lets say a table top, is to guide her towards a glass top to go over it. and or table pads to keep covered when not in use at the very least. 

but as you know, even glass can scratch or pads soaked and still not supply "absolute guarantees" of permanence of condition. 

That's why i say, it's best to find their hot spots [those things they verbally bring up as to concerns as to durability and then offer them choices of what you find best for them. point out both the good points and bad and let them decide which one sounds best to them. also make samples of all, so you can show for instance how easy one scratches or dulls with steel wool as compared to others. Being a salesman, an honest one, is half the battle or more in our trade. 

This way, if for whatever reason in the future something comes up, of the same nature, there will be no negativity, if you have already told and shown the limitations of any coating. Instead of making yourself look bad because of your limited knowledge, in turn, you can simply state " this is why i told you you really needed some type of padding on the chair to avoid these types of damages, with and in all honesty.

We are not "gods" We work with inferior materials that have limitations that are not within our means of total control, be it user or provider. A Rolls Royce or other high end car, face the same issues, do you concider them to be inferior or to tell them, they should have used a more durable product when scratched or damaged? I assure you the response would be, "We provide the maintenance guidelines, we are not resposible for carelessness or accident by the owner.":yes:

It always amazed me that car manufacturers could charge what they did for finishes with the customer fully aware that once purchased, it was there baby to take care of outside of faulty equipment or paint. yet we as wood finshers, working wth a myriad of natural occuring issues in the substrate, were being held to a higher standard than Rolls Royce, etc.. till i realized i was to blame for this in my business, thus why i did what i did to protect myself just as they had done.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> Interesting..is this stuff still available? Any chance you know who carries it still?


I will call Jon Rae the owner and get you info on that next week ok?:thumbsup:


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

OK..that would be great.. and if you have any kind of guidelines as far as application I could sure use that too to avoid any issues..


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

racfurniture said:


> OK..that would be great.. and if you have any kind of guidelines as far as application I could sure use that too to avoid any issues..


When you get the coatings let me know and i'll guide you through it ok?:icon_smile:


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## Stick (Aug 23, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> No I gotta say you aren't argumentative. Your innuendo's more than compensate for the lack of arguing. But to think your end is/was higher than someone else is just talking down to the crowd. With all due respect, you can beat on your chest all you want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :laughing::thumbsup:
A fool and his money soon part.... lol...
I'm with you Cman... seems like a lot of braggin' going on about "high-end" and all. What someone pays for a finish is a little iirrelevant. The craftsmanship put into the finish is more important than what was used. With enough time and effort you could make a quart of motor oil and a candle do some amazing things....


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## racfurniture (Dec 28, 2010)

I don't really seeing any bragging here..maybe I'm not looking for it..I merely asked a question and someone with experience answered it the best he knew how.. one thing I do know is a poor finish can ruin a high end build..and vice versa..one compliments the others..skimp on a finish the piece becomes cheap..skimp on the quality of the build..the piece is cheap.. 

This thread was not about who can do the best high end finish..but about my experience or lack of that required me to attempt a finishing job that I have never done before and a response of what I could have done instead of all that I did..I do not understand why lines have to be drawn in the sand over opinions made when all opinions are welcomed and appreciated? Makes no sense to me


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Stick said:


> :laughing::thumbsup:
> A fool and his money soon part.... lol...
> I'm with you Cman... seems like a lot of braggin' going on about "high-end" and all. What someone pays for a finish is a little iirrelevant. The craftsmanship put into the finish is more important than what was used. With enough time and effort you could make a quart of motor oil and a candle do some amazing things....


My apologies gentlemen, Any success i have had in my career has had more to do with diligent work, study, and hands on performance of our art and trade. This was coupled with being in the right place at the right time with the right people many times in my life. Not unlike other persons of the past or present. 

My career started out as someone who did not even know that there was such a business as re-finishing or finishing furniture. I had no awareness, inclination, or desire to even be involved in it, when my father, who i went to live with at the age of 18, introduced me to it. From there, i served [under his apprentice] 7 years learning all that he had learned over 35 years. That i consider my first "lucky break", though that was far from being my true feelings at the time. 

In the first 2 years i mainly did stripping, sanding, and minor repairs, and was also learning touch up /patching and the proper use of clamps etc. as well as assembly and dis-assembly of furniture, veneer repairs, etc.,, for furthering my repair abilities.

As time moved on i finally , started to learn how to spray and mix colors and glaze etc., not unlike anyone else except for the fact that Dad had developed a business where every type and color of finish was always being brought to the shop. His work was mainly for the major van lines and insurance companies. Therefore i was "exposed" to virtually every type and style and age or period of furniture both new and antique, as well as every type/color/stain/affect, that existed then as to finish. 

This coupled with the "always" availability of my father, to direct me and already knowing all the do's or don'ts or how to's, gave me an advantage over almost everyone else i came to know in the South Florida area at the time, though i really did not know how fortunate i was till later, when i got out on my own, and met others who were quite impressed with my knowledge and skill, at my age of only 25. 

So please don't think that I'm not grateful for my "accidental" success, in a business/trade/art, that originally held no interest for me, what so ever. My desire before this, was to become a musician and music still remains my true love.

Stick, i couldn't agree with you more. In fact your statement reminds me of a story of when i was working in a friend of mines shop in the Chicago area. One day he came to me and asked why it was taking me so long to finish a piece i had been working on for some time, and looked it over and responded "hell, it looks beautiful, what else do you need to do?" I then showed him little things that in my mind, and most of all what could be on my customers mind, still had to be taken care of before my final coats were applied. His response to me was, "Man, your just to fussy" and i replied with something my Father had said to me as a young man - "Most anyone can do a great job fast if they really know what their doing, and get it 95% right. But to get it 100% right, takes twice as long." He just shook his head and smiled and walked away. 

About a year later he gave me a call out of the blue, having just tried to do a multicolored pearl affect, for a leading designer, that he had basically picked up off of me when i was working there with him. It could have been a big break for him, but instead had cost him both the client and re-working the entire entertainment center to the clients satisfaction. "Ya know what" he said, and i asked what? "You sure were right about that last 5%" and then told me the whole story. 

So Stick, when you say, " The craftsmanship put into the finish is more important than what was used." i agree "totally" with the first part, though i have to disagree with the "what was used" part. To me the two go hand in hand if the job is to be as perfect as possible.

Though you may be able to use oil and wax for many things, there are hundreds of things in our trade where they wont work, though i "think", not taking for granted, your just being sarcastic. Again on "what one pays for, is a little irrelevant" i can only say that may be the case for you and C'man and me and probably most others here also. Since most, if not all, can or could afford a Rolls Royce or even a Mercedes Benz, at least i never could. 

But the same holds true if your client base is such that wants and is willing to pay to have the best, no matter what you may do or make or offer them, be it cars, furnishings, houses, boats, etc.. My intentions were never to pat myself on the back or beat my chest, or think so highly of myself that it appears to you that I'm just an egotistical p***k, i assure you with every success i have had, i have had failures also, just not ones that were general knowledge, meaning the clients never saw them, they were always fixed, be it by stripping and starting over, or buy patching/re coating/etc.. or what ever else was needed. 

Only the last half of my career was doing high end work on a steady basis, i to know what it's like to do low end work or production work or line work or be a one man shop working 16 hours a day, and all else, i started with just that type of work, i was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, quite the opposite, very poor. Beyond that i also know the circumstances of being homeless and living in my van, to be shop-less and loosing everything i had except for the clothes i was wearing and the things in my van, due to 2 back to back hurricanes in Florida in 04-05. Of which i never recovered from. I am now no more than a SS security beneficiary living a meager life, writing books to hopefully publish and regain some of my losses and spending some time on forums to honestly try my best to "help" others with those things i know best and most thoroughly.

And if you have problems with my style of writing or the content, I apologize for being long winded or not your kind of person, or for not being more careful with my choice of words or phrasing or whatever else may turn you off about me. We really don't have to like each other, it's a "forum", which i think people get way to defensive about both here and everywhere. It's not as if we "really" know each other, at least to any point where one could really form an opinion on who we really are based on our actions and not just on words. Chances are, if you or C'man or anyone else on here were to meet under other circumstances then an open forum, we may just become friends, at least on my part, you would always find me ready and willing to show, share, teach, "learn", and all else that makes for good relations. "you can't know some one by his words, only by his actions" words are easily taken or written wrongly or out of context throughout history, it's always been this way, and will always be troublesome.

So i will leave it to those here as to what is important, information that is helpful, freely given, asking "nothing" in return. While being able to look past any words that may tick some off. Or, argumentative responses that have nothing to do with what others are looking for and not helpful. Which will it be for you? 

And lastly know this, all my career, what has meant most to me is fellow finishers giving kudos to my work, more so than any wealthy clients, who were but a means to an end that is/was/and will always be necessary. :yes:


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

_He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast. 

Leonardo da Vinci_


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> _He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast.
> 
> Leonardo da Vinci_


And he who loves theory, without practice, has no real knowledge, for it is in the doing that true knowledge is obtained.

_Chemmy da Vinci :no:_


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great info and bio, chemmy*

Back in 2009 I posted this after thinking about the process we use in creating woodworking projects. As someone with a MFA Industrial Design background and years in the automotive design studios of GM I started to think about the whole process.

Here's the post:







*Working in Wood a 3 part process* 
I for one get pretty involved in....
Step 1, the inspiration part, the design, the drawings and sketches, how and where the joints will be made, sizes, proportions etc.

Then Step 2, the mechanical part, making the piece, set-ups jigs, which tools to use, the fitting, gluing and sanding.

Then Step 3, and I think this is where a lot of us sort of drop the ball, *finishing*. 
This is part chemistry, past experience, trial and error, and skill or artistry, all come together. All the time and effort in the first steps are for naught, if the finish doesn't turn out well, the color is wrong or blotchy etc. If I remember correctly, C Man said, think about how you are going to finish the piece *first *rather* than last*. Work out all the stains and finishes before hand, so there are no surprises. That's great advice. Just wondered if others have the thoughts? :blink: 

For some of us it's the most confusing, mysterious and complicated part of the process. Spray guns tip sizes,water based vs solvent based, spray booths, lighting, availability etc. all play a role in the success or lack thereof in the average woodworker's finished project. So, I appreciate your expertise as well as that of any one else who wishes to share it.
We have only our own experience to draw upon for recommendations, so there are no absolutes in the discussion. What worked for one may not work for the other, but all points of view are most valuable, and experienced based, rather than "opinion" based the best of course. :thumbsup: bill


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Greatly appreciated WT, thank you. 

Your comments reminds me of when i was offered a position at OSF America, [division of OSF Canada] who i had done consulting work for a year or so earlier. A new group of upper management had come on board [for failure of the last teams endeavors that ended in termination], and Tom Ide was head of floor management [plant manager] at that time. He had read my reports, resume, cover letter, and also a letter of "declination" i had sent them, when asked to come on board as a "Assistant supervisor" lol. I had then replied back to them that i did not take positions of "blame" meaning i was not about to be a political fall guy for someone else to save their own A**, if something went wrong in production. Been there, done that, "once" i needed no further education in that area. :no:

Tom, on the other-hand, had only been there for several months and though well qualified as to his position, had hired a new SV, but found he had made a grave mistake that i wont go into as of now . I had since moved back to Florida and was working for Larry lashbrook custom guitars in Ft Laud. when out of the blue Tom called me there. He had hunted me down and called my step mom and got my new number. I was a little taken back since i had really not expected to hear from them again, at least not for employment reasons. 

To make a short story long lol, I went back undercover so to say, again as a consultant to see for myself what was happening in the finish dept., as well as getting to know Tom and all the people in all depts. before i could make a decision on employment, that took about 5 weeks. I then took the position, [the highest paid in my career at the time] with 3 stipulations in writing, first, complete and total access to all the dept heads and workers [at all times]. Two, complete access to upper management, including the president and the owner, when ever possible and available [open door policy]. three, "AUTHORITY" to change whatever i found necessary to improve/establish/or other, that would add "Value" to the final products, while reducing unnecessary or labor intensive parameters that existed. 

I still really believe that Tom and the rest went along with my request out of fear of loosing their new positions, than really being comfortable with my humble demands. But having been in corporate politics many times before, i knew that this would be necessary for both me and them to achieve their goals.

Why?, for many of the same reasons you noted. Operations get to big, no close contact between depts. many employees though well versed and educated were from different fields or backgrounds of work ie: cad cam in metal but no experience in wood. No contact between cutting/assembly and finishing to view drawings being sent to the floor/computer, for evaluation ""before hand"". In my first month there, i had to meet with engineering to have them change drawings/cut list/ and assembly tags to avoid loss of profits for the company way to many times. 

Example: large quantity for a new store that required a 5 tier table with main pole and top cap in 7 different colors total, for each table. Problem: It was to be fully assembled and then sent to finishing to finish. That meant it would have to be reverse masked several times to accomplish the job. Answer to problem? Send the separate shelves and poles and caps of each size on pallets to be finished individually then assembled. Sounds simple right? common sense? It is if you know "all" about every phase of the woodworking process and go about it as you and others say. 

So how did i cut down drastically on this continuing to happen? I put in affect, with upper management's full blessing, classes that were 1 hour per day for 6 weeks, to put into action, a full fledged plan for the best inter communications possible. nothing was purchased/ spec-ed/ project managed/ engineered/customer sampled/prototyped/ etc., till a meeting on every new project or ongoing project was had by the heads of "ALL" depts and thoroughly discussed and torn apart and re done to everyone's satisfaction. I won't go into further detail, but i assure you, it not only worked, but saved them over 2 million a year in rework or loss of profits. By the end of my first year there i had taken them from an average of 17 1/2 mil per annum to 21 mil., with an increase in ther "net" profits of21%. Much more to this story in my book I'm writing, but this is sufficient for your post to show how sometimes little things add up to big savings, and can be used in any shop regardless of size be it C'mans, your's, or anyone Else's.

Thanks again, :thumbsup:

PS: not pushing any of my books, there not even finished, so please no comments 

Sincerely,

Chemmy


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