# Face Frame On Cabinet Between Walls



## kreuzie (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm building an upper kitchen cabinet that will go between a wall and the back of a cabinet containing a wall oven. The oven cabinet is fairly true, but the wall bows inward about 1/4 inch over 42 inches. I'll have to build the cabinet to the least width that will fit, and add the face frame later. I want the face frame stiles to match the wall contour and avoid using small molding to cover any gaps between the cabinet and wall.

Any tried-and-true techniques?

kreuzie


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Hey guy, I'm trying to picture this but...*

I don't get it. Did you mean to say between the wall and the "side" of the cabinet? The wall side being bowed inward and the cabinet side being fairly straight....This makes sense to me. Yes? 
Assuming that's the case you will need to template the wall by using a pencil compass/dividers set to a touch more than 1/4" and transfer the curvature of the wall onto a scrap of 1/4 inch ply. It may not work exactly the first time since you must keep the compass perfectly horizontal. But after you cut the curve you will get a perfect fit. Keep trying the cut line against the wall to insure it's correct. You can then transfer this line to your stile when you are ready to attach it. bill


----------



## kreuzie (Jan 10, 2008)

You are correct. Looks like I learn to scribe. How do you get both stiles plumb and (appearing to be) the same width?


----------



## sausagefingers (Oct 1, 2008)

Sometimes when I run into a situation like that, I actually run the stile on the out of plumb wall with the wall and make the opening of the cabinet out of square. And, depending on the style of doors you use, when you hang the doors, you can adjust them just enough to make the out of squareness not noticeable. Not the best thing to always do, but sometimes this looks better than having a trapezoidal stile that is even more of an eyesore. But this really depends on what you prefer. Many guys out there would NEVER build an out of square cabinet, but I've always gone by the rule "Better to look perfect, than to be perfect." hahah.


----------



## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

sausagefingers said:


> Sometimes when I run into a situation like that, I actually run the stile on the out of plumb wall with the wall and make the opening of the cabinet out of square. And, depending on the style of doors you use, when you hang the doors, you can adjust them just enough to make the out of squareness not noticeable. Not the best thing to always do, but sometimes this looks better than having a trapezoidal stile that is even more of an eyesore. But this really depends on what you prefer. Many guys out there would NEVER build an out of square cabinet, but I've always gone by the rule "Better to look perfect, than to be perfect." hahah.


I agree with this. Personally I prefer all to look well to the eye. Nobody is ever going to see that the inside frame of the cabinet is not square. 

G


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Lets see what we have.*



kreuzie said:


> You are correct. Looks like I learn to scribe. How do you get both stiles plumb and (appearing to be) the same width?


First is the wall just out of plumb or is there a curve to it? That's the reason for the template...if it's curved. If not, and the wall is straight, but out of plumb, then ditch the template idea!:yes: 
Plumb the wall with a 48" level first, see if it's out and how far and where top or bottom. Check in the corner and at the depth of the new cabinet. Plumb the existing cabinet side ,,,same as above. Record the offsets on a piece of paper larger than your new cabinet using the straight edge of the paper as a reference, you could use a piece of ply also. Layout your cabinet dimensions within the plumb lines. This will be your minimum carcass width minus an 1/8th or less to allow for installation. After you scribe and fit the wall template, establish a plumb line on the template using the "back" side of the level while holding the template firmly against the wall, you might need 3 hands for this...or if the existing cabinet is plumb measure over the same distance top and bottom and mark your template with these reference marks. A 24" framing square will do the same thing off the existing cabinet. Just add the dimesion to the 24 over to the wall, assuming your new cabinet is greater in width than 24". This is all to establish a maximum size rectangle that will slide into the opening being bound on both sides by the wall and the existing cabinet. Whew! That becomes the dimensions of your new cabinet carcass.If you use a rabbet corner and a rabbet back panel and a dado shelf or two this will all be much easier with "square" corners and right angles rather than trapezoids. You could, I suppose, build the new cabinet, piece by piece in place as you go, but that wouldn't be my choice. Cut and fit, cut and fit, etc. or in this case fit and cut!:wallbash: At some point you will have to chose whether to build the face frame piece by piece and assemble on the "hung" carcass or build it as an assembly and then attach it to the carcass. 
Well, that's about all I can offer for now, bill :thumbsup: good luck.


----------



## kreuzie (Jan 10, 2008)

I plan to "build" it piece-by-piece, to make sure everything fits nicely, then assemble the pieces with pocket screws and attach the face frame as one piece, probably with counterbored and plugged finish screws. Lucky it's only a four-piece face frame.

kreuzie


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The usual way of doing this would be to make the cabinet narrow enough to fit with clearance to the minimum width. The floor of the cabinet would be full width (past the ends) to be scribed to fit, and likewise for the faceframe. Cabinets should not be fabricated out of square to fit out of square openings.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Amen Brother!*

Things are far enough out of kilter without creating new stuff!bill


----------



## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Kreuzie,
What's the chance of just fixing the wall first? Seems to me a little mudwork would be a lot easier than all the fiddlin' you are planning for the cabinet. 
Mike Hawkins


----------



## kreuzie (Jan 10, 2008)

I know it can be done...I've just never done it. Cabinet shops, knowing that there's no such thing as a perfect wall, allow a little extra width on their end stiles for scribing. I think applying the drywall compound would be more of a hassle than scribing a stile.

kreuzie


----------



## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Aw cmon Kreuzie,
You must not like drywall mud. Good set of knives, some of the quickset compounds, piece of cake. I tear out a lot of soffits and do a lot of wall repairs after tearing out old tile and whatever else. Not that hard with some practice. I taught my son how to hang and tape when he was around 15. We were finishing off a pretty good size basement. After showing him how to tape, I had bought him his own stainless mudpan and turned him loose with only one caution:"you sand what you tape". He actually did a good job, picked it up pretty quick.
Mike Hawkins


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I wouldn't attempt to learn a new trade right now*



kreuzie said:


> I know it can be done...I've just never done it. Cabinet shops, knowing that there's no such thing as a perfect wall, allow a little extra width on their end stiles for scribing. I think applying the drywall compound would be more of a hassle than scribing a stile.kreuzie


Granted it's only visible where the stile of the cabinet intersects the out of plumb wall therefore you wouldn't have to mud the wall behind the stile hidden by the cabinet. but you would have to "feather" it out into the room until it's not apparent. You are looking to make a 1/4" gap disappear....not certain if the wall pulls away in the middle or at the top, top would be worse, but either way it's an aquired skill. For an example in my own home I don't use door casings!  I just run the jamb (3/4" oak) into the room 3/8ths and drywall/mud right up to it for a clean uncluttered look. No carpenter would do it this way, too much work/time on the clock, but I like the look. So, I've done a fair amount of drywalling, including a 25 x29 shop with cathedral ceilings and other remodels. I've also done a fair amount of cabinet installs, so if I were you, I'd stick to the advice given by cabinetman and myself. Make the carcass (a true rectangle) the maximum size that will fit between the wall and existing cabinet. Then make the faceframe as assembly after accounting for the out of plumb or curved wall, by making the rails either equal lenghts top and bottom or unequal to account for the out of plumb condition. A curved wall
will still require a scribe on the stile for a "perfect" fit. As you stated production cabinets have a 1/4" face frame projection to the sides for slight variations in fitting. Don't strain out knats looking for camels as the saying goes...that's my advice. bill:smile:


----------



## Garmar (Apr 7, 2009)

I've done this before in situations where I knew I had a long cabinet or crooked wall. And I avoid trim if at all possible. 

Instead of leaving the entire frame off, I would pocket screw the frame together (without glue on the removable stile) making sure I can still have access to the screws after it is on the carcass. It gets pre-finished then the stile pops right off on the job. I install the cabinet then scribe the stile to fit. Works every time and it goes much faster than trying to fit an entire frame to the cabinet on the job. I know because I've tried it. :wallbash:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Quote: 
Instead of leaving the entire frame off, I would pocket screw the frame together (without glue on the removable stile) making sure I can still have access to the screws after it is on the carcass. It gets pre-finished then the stile pops right off on the job. I install the cabinet then scribe the stile to fit. job. I know because I've tried it. :wallbash:[/quote]
Question:
How do you scribe/cut and remove material from the stile if it already fits in the opening without increasing the gap at the wall. It's already too narrow in order to fit between the existing cabinet and the wall. Your idea is fine when there is not a boundary on the opposing side.:blink: 
JUst a final thought on this whole question:
Template the entire opening!
Temporarally attach 2 lengths of 1 x scrap both to the wall and to the existing cabinet at the approximate depth of the new cabinet, running slightly long. These will act as stops to push the cardboard against , the next step. Take 2 pieces of stiff cardboard, with square corners, that are wide enough to overlap a few inches in the center. Hold one flush right and top, hold the other flush left and top and tape them together in the center. Assuming the corners are square and the wall has no "bow" I'm still waiting on that issue!  that will be the finished face frame outline. Make and assemble your face frame and attach it to the finished carcass and it should fit like OJ's glove, not really, better. OK? I'm leaving now, bill :yes:


----------



## Garmar (Apr 7, 2009)

> How do you scribe/cut and remove material from the stile if it already fits in the opening without increasing the gap at the wall. It's already too narrow in order to fit between the existing cabinet and the wall. Your idea is fine when there is not a boundary on the opposing side.:blink:


Say you have a 30 inch opening at its widest point. You would make your frame like a typical 30 inch cabinet and add scribe material to the removable stile. Install the cabinet without the stile on. After the cabinet is installed, scribe the stile to fit. This method is based on trial and error over a 16 year span installing cabinets. It does require a certain amount of skill to do right - as does all phases of installing. 

The whole point of doing this is when you're captured between a cabinet and a wall, or wall and wall or cabinet and cabinet, etc. But everyone has their own methods. This one was developed from hundreds of high end cabinetry builds for very demanding customers. I don't like my frames or anything else to look like they were scabbed on as an afterthought.

I don't know what the OP's level of skill is. If this is a relatively new experience for him, then templating the entire opening like you suggest is probably the safe way to go. But if his skill level is high...why install an entire frame on the job site?


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Just one more reply*

I am always pleasantly suprised when a poster has an accurate and appropriate answer that is slightly different in detail but similiar in principle to my own. Especially when I look at the number of posts and its a low number, it's almost impossible not to "assume" that this fellow is just starting out and sincerely wants to help the OP. Then I find out that the answer comes from someone more far experienced than I am. So, it's great that together we can pool our experiences and have a little fun and go back and forth with it, and all come away a little wiser. Skill levels come in all sizes ages and no of posts. I try to answer the OP question and throw in a little Irish wit while I'm doin' it if possible. That's my contribution if nothing else. A recent comment was that the WWT Forum was like a magazine that comes every day, is continually changing and challenging and entertaining. I always eagerly look forward to the new threads and the new posts. I wish kreuzie the best of luck on the project and hope I have given him and others a few things to consider. :thumbsup:bill


----------



## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Decided not to post after all


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ditto for kruezie!*



woodworks said:


> Decided not to post after all


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f15/abundance-abandoned-posts-9481/index2/#post76051 
Maybe he lost his appetite for the project?:wallbash:
Maybe he got lost in the ethernet?:blink:
Maybe we scared him off?:huh:
Maybe he hired the job out to cabinetman?:laughing:
Kreuzie where are you? bill


----------



## kreuzie (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm here!

I haven't forgotten you....

....try as I might! :laughing:

Been busy prepping the wall for primer and paint before I install the cabinet. And wrapping up the spray painting of the cabinet interior.

I'll send a pic when it's finished (don't hold your breath - I take my time). As I tell the little lady: "You can't rush quality".

Heck, it's worked for 37 years....

Anybody know how to attach a pic on this forum??

kreuzie


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Attachments:*

FAQ above, has the answers to most site questions. Here is the text:
*How do I attach a file to a post?*
To attach a file to your post, you need to be using the main 'New Post' or 'New Thread' page and not 'Quick Reply'. To use the main 'New Post' page, click the 'Post Reply' button in the relevant thread.
On this page, below the message box, you will find a button labelled 'Manage *Attachments*'. Clicking this button will open a new window for uploading *attachments*. You can upload an attachment either from your computer or from another URL by using the appropriate box on this page. Alternatively you can click the Attachment Icon to open this page.
To upload a file from your computer, click the 'Browse' button and locate the file. To upload a file from another URL, enter the full URL for the file in the second box on this page. Once you have completed one of the boxes, click 'Upload'.
Once the upload is completed the file name will appear below the input boxes in this window. You can then close the window to return to the new post screen. :thumbsup: bill


----------



## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

*Posting pictures*

Just go to your 'post a reply' and then scroll down to manage attachments.
There you will click on that and then click on browse and find your attachment and click on that and then scroll over to the right an click on 'upload' and you then should have it. I think you can put a total of 3 in at a time.

Just like this...

While writing the shorter version of posting pictures, woodnthings jumped in and posted his long version.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I apologize!*

It's actually from FAQ's at the top tool bar. I would have written the shorter version as well, but I didn't feel like typing it all over for the umpteenth time!:wallbash: bill


----------



## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> It's actually from FAQ's at the top tool bar. I would have written the shorter version as well, but I didn't feel like typing it all over for the umpteenth time!:wallbash: bill


 
No need to apologize, anyone can copy & paste. :laughing:

Does it say anywhere in there how to send pictures in private messages? If so, I didn't see it, but thern again, I've been known to be blind now and then.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Everyone has their own way of handling oddities during installation. I got used to a method that seems fairly easy and whatever works is what counts.

If I make a cabinet with a face frame and it will be captive by either walls or other cabinets, I work out the details in my field measurements. Since the installation site is away from the shop, being able to fit and install on the job is critical. 

I would take template material with me if necessary and determine what is out of plumb, or out of square. An alcove can be out of parallel, and a wall can be out of plumb, or have a bow or concave. Where areas are to be scribed, the cabinet is made narrow...to fit. The face frame will protrude from the end or ends, along with the floor of the cabinet. IOW, the front leading wall edge and bottom edge is able to be scribed (for an upper/wall cabinet).

My field measurements will include in determining what I have to work with. Using a cardboard template can produce what will have to happen to get a good fit. This same principle is used on doing woodwork or cabinetwork on boats and yachts, where there aren't any flat, straight, or square areas to work with. 

I don't add stiles or face frames on the job. The cabinet gets fabricated to fit and/or scribed to fit. This pertains to custom work. For production cabinets, they are made in 3" incerments for width, and filler pieces are available to take up the gaps. Trim mouldings either flat, coved, or quarter round are used for final trim.


----------

