# Planting a veneer forest



## Rich B (Jan 19, 2013)

I was reading the posts on here and was impressed with the knowledge in this forum.

I am looking to plant a veneer tree farm in south central wisconsin.

Where can I find information and who can I contact for questions I will have?

Seems White Oak , Red Oak and Black Walnut are the most profitable trees, any other suggestions?

Also does anyone have a resource for what veneer is going for today? Just to show my wife Im not too crazy?

thanks for your help

Rich


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

Ummm. I know absolutely nothing about this, but I know that oaks take a llllooooonnnnggg time to grow so would it ever be profitable in your lifetime? A serious question not being mean if it came off that way.


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## Rich B (Jan 19, 2013)

Tommie Hockett said:


> Ummm. I know absolutely nothing about this, but I know that oaks take a llllooooonnnnggg time to grow so would it ever be profitable in your lifetime? A serious question not being mean if it came off that way.


 
Your not being mean at all, its a good point. Thank you:thumbsup:

I want to do this as a gift to my children and grandchildrens futures. I am just researching it to see the profitability.

Rich


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## Tommie Hockett (Aug 26, 2012)

not a bad idea that would be a truly awesome gift


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## HomeBody (Nov 24, 2010)

I didn't know you could "grow" a veneer tree. I thought they were pretty uncommon. If it were possible to grow a "veneer forest", I'd think someone would have done it by now. Are there any existing "veneer forsests" out there? Gary


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

There is profit in trees no doubt. Which trees and where is a matter for what you are doing - research. 


I would try and get onto a beginning of the line veneer manufacturer and ask where and how they source their materials. If it is select trees from a forest or if they can take virtually any tree.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

It is a great gesture, and likely expensive. It's true, that it will take a long time, and whether your children or grandchildren would be interested in the endeavor might be a question. 

"Veneer" forests, or IOW, commonly called "plantation grown" trees provides for the abundant and protected growth.









 







.


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

Imho you can try and grow a higher value tree by removing the branches as the tree grows which will produce clear lumber and maybe veneer log/logs, but you can not say its a veneer log by just looking at the outside of a log, you need to look at the growth rings and is the the log/tree straight, no bird peck and thats just a start of what a veneer buyer is looking for. Ive cut some woodlots that would produce no veneer logs and then some average 5 to 7% of the harvest. Good luck, that would be a nice for the kids/ grandkids to cash in on in the future, if it were me I would plant walnut it grows faster and brings more money than the oaks do.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

Walnut well spaced so they get good light. Keep pruning them into what the younger brother,(an arborist) refers to as lollipop trees, where only the top fourth has branches. Apply a suitable solid fertilizer several times a year.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Why not grow Japanese maples. At 5' tall they bring about $100.
Tom


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Tree farming is farming. Mother nature can have 101 things that can go against you, everything from wind and ice storms to insects and disease. You should contact your state's extension service and have a forester come out and assess your land and offer suggestions. A high quality veneer log might take 75-100 yrs. to grow and there would be no guaranty it would be veneer quality or that it stays in your family.

I have an 80 acre mixed species wood lot in Maine. It gets selectively cut about every 30 yrs. The majority of the logs go to pulp mills and firewood, only a small percentage are saw logs for lumber. Those go to a log broker and whether any are selected for veneer depends on the buyer. Since there aren't any plywood mills around, probably none end up as veneer. The birch often goes to toothpicks at Foster manufacturing. It's hard to know what the future will bring in logging. Paper mills here are barely surviving, Canadian lumber has put a lot of local loggers out of business. A friend does well in the firewood business but it isn't easy and requires a lot of wood.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Anything do do with growing plants would be in the knowledge of your County Agricultural Agent. Most states have these positions.

If you not find an agent, then contact the University in your state that specializes in agriculture.

George


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

You've got great resources to rely on right there in Wisconsin. Make your first call to your UWEX County Ag Agent. They might or might not be much direct help, but what they can do is give you the right contacts. Besides the University resources, you also have the USDA Forest Products Research Lab which operates in partnership with the Univ. of Wisconsin.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Veneer "peeler" logs are big, old and slow growing. They need some careful husbandry to prune off
lower branches (so that they can be overgrown quickly) and this also regulates the annual increment in growth rings. Fast growth for simplistic fiber volume makes for a soft, punky tree with little to admire in terms of wood grain figure. Not a whole lot of work each year but a sustained effort for decades.


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## scsmith42 (Jan 24, 2011)

Robson Valley said:


> Veneer "peeler" logs are big, old and slow growing. They need some careful husbandry to prune off
> lower branches (so that they can be overgrown quickly) and this also regulates the annual increment in growth rings. Fast growth for simplistic fiber volume makes for a soft, punky tree with little to admire in terms of wood grain figure. Not a whole lot of work each year but a sustained effort for decades.


+1 and well stated. 

Plan on planting fairly close together in order to encourage rapid heigth development, and narrower growth rings. This will also discourage the development of lower branches. Then, in 20 - 30 years plan on thinning out the trees to allow them to start to bulk up.


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## Rich B (Jan 19, 2013)

*Thank You*

See this is what I meant. A lot of great suggestions and comments.

So far what I havefound is that Black Walnut brings the most money in Veneer, followed by Red Oak. Veneer forestry can be profitable and you can grow veneer trees but like has been pointed out, it takes time and husbandry. Ive been to a few nursery sights and they recommend planting 8-10 feet apart with 10 feet between the rows. This provides for about 545 trees per acre. Walnut, Oak and Maple can be bought as 12-18" saplings for about .75 to .85 cents per if you buy over 500. 

If I plant 10 acres per year for 6 years that would give me a good base without trying to do it all in one year. 5000 trees would be about 4250.00. Still a lot of planting, but thats what I have two boys for, right? 

Since I am going to plant this over time, I am thinking of also planting some pine trees in the centers to provide cover for deer and turkeys. Would be great for hunting. Do you think the pines would have to take the place of the more money producing trees? or could I use them to fill in and then cut out later? Would they inhibit the growth of the hardwoods if they are planted in between the veneer trees?

Do any of you have an accurate or even a rough estimate what an 18" dia. Walnut and Red Oak of average veneer quality would bring in today market? Unlike mill wood, veneer is not always processed here in the states. Thus making the problem of no local mill I would think not that important. 

Again, thanks for the help youve given so far I really appreciate your input, and your willingness to share your experience.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Rich B said:


> See this is what I meant. A lot of great suggestions and comments.
> 
> So far what I havefound is that Black Walnut brings the most money in Veneer, followed by Red Oak. Veneer forestry can be profitable and you can grow veneer trees but like has been pointed out, it takes time and husbandry. Ive been to a few nursery sights and they recommend planting 8-10 feet apart with 10 feet between the rows. This provides for about 545 trees per acre. Walnut, Oak and Maple can be bought as 12-18" saplings for about .75 to .85 cents per if you buy over 500.
> 
> ...


Looks like you are doing a lot of thinking without first talking to any experts. For this subject I would NOT consider a nursery to be an expert source.

tcr65 has given you the exact resources you need to be using.

George


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## Rich B (Jan 19, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> Looks like you are doing a lot of thinking without first talking to any experts. For this subject I would NOT consider a nursery to be an expert source.
> 
> tcr65 has given you the exact resources you need to be using.
> 
> George


 
Sorry George, I didnt mean to mis-speak. I havnt talked with any nursery, just checked online to get pricing. I will be consulting the resources posted by tcr65.

Thanks


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## Logger (Nov 26, 2009)

The value really depends on quality, I can say that loggers are paying anywhere from a $ 1to 2 a board foot standing in my area depenging on size and quality, 18" is on the small side imo and is really at the age of really putting on size every year from there on. The value could be $10 a bdft. to a buyer for walnut but is rare, red oak im not sure as my area does not grow much veneer quality, with that said I would grow white oak I think there is more demand for white oak with the export market and brings more $.


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## Longknife (Oct 25, 2010)

I have no input to give you regarding the possibilities in the US but I can give you an idea of the time and work it takes to grow usable timber.

In old times warships were built from oak, it took more than 2,000 oaks to build one ship. To ensure access to timber the King of Sweden in 1831 ordered that 300,000 saplings of oak should be planted on an island in the lake Vättern. The plantation was then nursed over the years and the trees were pruned every year to make tall, straight trees. Finally, in 1975, the Navy was noticed that the trees wery ready for harvesting. Of course the Navy then had limited use for oak timber so now it's used for other purposes like whiskey barrels and such.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

That's interesting

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Longknife, (I tried to pull up the 50 yr quote...it didn't happen LOL)

I believe that tree is more than 50 but less than the 1831er's planted:huh::laughing::laughing: ....BUT the story is interesting...is that a part of that planting??? if tightly grown (and white oak's slow growth), trees don't gain mass in dia. but hieght.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love,
Tim


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## Longknife (Oct 25, 2010)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Longknife, (I tried to pull up the 50 yr quote...it didn't happen LOL)
> 
> I believe that tree is more than 50 but less than the 1831er's planted:huh::laughing::laughing: ....BUT the story is interesting...is that a part of that planting??? if tightly grown (and white oak's slow growth), trees don't gain mass in dia. but hieght.
> 
> ...


 
Yup, the trees in the picture are parts of the original planting, so they are 182 years old. (Give or take a few years, the planting took 20 years to complete).

The species is European Oak (Quercus Robur). The forest nowadays consist of 48,000 trees and it is a protected forest.
Old trees are harvested and new saplings are planted. The timber is used for special projects such as replicas of old ships, new floor in the Swedish Embassy i South Africa and the swedish whiskey destillers Mackmyra use the lumber to make their barrels.

This forest is unique in the respect that the trees are all tall and straight (not the normal growth of an oak). This is a result of the intensive nursing and when the saplings are young they are shadowed by spruces and lark trees to prevent them from developing too many branches.
BTW, the oldest living oak in Sweden is about 1,000 years old.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Longknife said:


> I have no input to give you regarding the possibilities in the US but I can give you an idea of the time and work it takes to grow usable timber.
> 
> In old times warships were built from oak, it took more than 2,000 oaks to build one ship. To ensure access to timber the King of Sweden in 1831 ordered that 300,000 saplings of oak should be planted on an island in the lake Vättern. The plantation was then nursed over the years and the trees were pruned every year to make tall, straight trees. Finally, in 1975, the Navy was noticed that the trees wery ready for harvesting. Of course the Navy then had limited use for oak timber so now it's used for other purposes like whiskey barrels and such.


Is that you leaning on the tree.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

I would plant cherry in between the walnut- they grow faster and would force the walnuts to go up- more like in a natural forest probably harvest them in 30- 40 years.


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## against_the_grain (Aug 15, 2010)

I think there are government programs or non-government programs (green) that assist in endeavors such as planting a large quanity of trees . Might be worth looking into.


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## Kuh Shise (Mar 30, 2012)

A MANY generation undertaking with a lot of pitfalls. Since you have already determined that you will persue this endeavor, I have a few suggestions. Begin to educate yourself in forest ecology. There is a whole lot more to think of than just "veneer logs". One place to begin is with "An Introduction to Forest Ecology", published by PALS (Plant And Life Sciences Publishing) of Ithaca, NY. A cooperative extension project of six universities including Cornell. You should be able to find their web site. Also available from them is a publication called "The Woods in Your Back Yard". I have just passed along to my son's family a woodlot that began its life in our family in the 1920's. Through the years it has evolved from clearcut and cow pasture to pine & spruce plantation, and now to a point where we are able to harvest limited quantities of pine, spruce, cherry, maple and oak. There is a great problem with a mono-culture of a single tree. Introduced and native species of insects will love you for providing a single type of plant. Millions of oaks were defoliated by Gypsy Moth in Penns Woods over the past 30 years or so. I have benefitted from this through the cordwood program from our DEP on State Forest Lane here in the Pa. Wilds. Anyone on here from Maine westward across into Canada will be able to tell you of the great ice storm of the 1990's. On the other side of the coin is the results, if you persist and invest time in planning, pruning & thinning in a way that will enhance "Forest Succession". You are really managing change in the forest composition and age in a way that will improve the desired harvest. My son and family are beginning to enjoy the results of my grandfathers & fathers efforts. We are doing all the interior trim on his new house using lumber cut from this woodlot. The cherry in the "Man Cave" came from a tree that was growing within 20 feet of the room location. (see my Pictures) As you work on this project, please keep a journal that tells what and why certain things were done. It will become as important to your Great Grandson as the wood lot.


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## Rich B (Jan 19, 2013)

*Thank you*

Again some great advise from guys who know a whole lot more about trees and wood than I ever will. I will take this slow and plant for the future of my family. I know I will never see the benefits of this, but I want to leave something special for them. its important to me to leave them more than I ever had. 

Your combined thoughts, experience and concerns have made me dig deeper than before and I will really work on this to make it successful effort. I know I cant predict mother natures whims and ways. But barring that I will plan and enjoy the work.

Thanks again, and if anyone else has anything to add I really appreciate your taking the time.:smile:

Rich


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## ETWW (Mar 27, 2011)

Rich,

What you are planning is a worthy endeavor but you are seeking advise in the wrong place...an internet forum.

For the investment in land, time and money that you are considering please do yourself a favor and talk to people who know or who can direct you to those people. SWAGs and conjecture are not what you need but hard factual advice from experienced persons.

Your county extension agent and your county forester are where I would start. It's even possible that there is some government assistance available for your plan.


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## SteveEl (Sep 7, 2010)

trc65 said:


> You've got great resources to rely on right there in Wisconsin. Make your first call to your UWEX County Ag Agent.


Amen to that. In Michigan, I am trying to sell acreage that is officially listed as a "commercial forest". I grow trees and let people walk to hunt; in exchange I pay basically zero property taxes. Wisconsin probably has a similar program. There's also the concept of donating conservation easements to land conservancies. You grow and harvest the timber, but they keep the development rights. In exchange you get a big charitable donation write off. The County Ag agent will have info on all this stuff.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I agree 95% with ETTW......BUT gather all info from all sources and double check what you want to believe. I have state forestry involved in my farm for ADVICE at this time BUT I'm finding his (forester) opinion is clear cutting plots and let naturally regenerate.....I'm older fashioned for a younger man and not sold on clearcutting and letting all start from fresh.....I understand the better growth (diameter) on the plot but I'm for taller, leaner straighter main logs without the yearly pruning. VIRGIN forest trees had to earn their growth and thats why they were tall and lean. 

DON'T get me wrong they also had good advice that is GOING to be used BUT not all their advice in MY case. I have some bad/ low grade that needs to be removed (great thing with owning a sawmill, it AIN'T low grade when I'm done)and some of the regeneration from my 15 yr ago select cutting that needs thinning of the trashy not desireables BUT not as a clear cut. The crown took 12 yrs to heal but created lots of saplings of the native species.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love,
Tim


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## Kuh Shise (Mar 30, 2012)

Tennessee: Your reasoning and experience parallels my own when dealing with my local AG agent/forester. They are used to dealing with large timber stands, and owners who do not have the time or inclination to invest the necessary time and money tofigure out the likely result of cutting individual trees. The second thing you get by selective cutting, is an improvement in the genetic quality and species mix that can help to maximize the yield. Things like aspect ratio, moisture, soil condition, growth characteristic, succession, etc. are all factors that determine and influence the decisions to cut this one and leave that one. Which way to fell to minimize damage to desireable stock, and how to remove the logs without compacting the soil and changing the character of the stand.


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