# Planning for wood movement in a bartop



## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I’m a newbie woodworker, more of a dabbler, but I have just started drafting plans for a garage bar and could use some advice on designing the bar top to deal with wood movement. The environment is pretty exposed to the outdoors and here in Rhode Island we have distinct four seasons, 90's in the summer 10's in the winter. The garage is enclosed but not sealed up tight from the outside, so I’m assuming there will be moisture in the air.

It will be a 12 inch wide top, having three sections to fit into the corner of the room, not sure of the angles yet, but there obtuse. My gut feeling is to avoid solid wood and to use MDF with a wood semi veneer on top(1/8'' - 1/4''), and seal above and below the MDF and wood. I’m not sold on this idea so any criticism would be great.

Basically, I want to try and minimize the wood movement and cracks that are associated with this. Any suggestions or ideas that would help would be great.

Thanks, 

New2Woodworking​


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Have you considered using a hardwood plywood?












 







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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

*hardwood plywood*

Hardwood plywood for the surface or the substrate? I considered using plywood for the substrate, either MDF or plywood, I've read they both don’t "move" that much.

As you can tell I'm not overly knowledgeable, but that's why im here, to change that haha! 

I'm guessing the hardwood plywood is a better grade than the normal ply, is it aesthetic enough to be the surface?

Thanks for the info


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

New2Woodworking said:


> I'm guessing the hardwood plywood is a better grade than the normal ply, is it aesthetic enough to be the surface?
> 
> Thanks for the info


Yes it is. It has as a face a layer of hardwood veneer, of whatever species you pick. You have no movement issues. Solid hardwood can be added to the edge for trimming.












 







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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

Very nice, sounds like a simple solution to my problem. Thanks a lot! And I'm sure ill be back for a whole slew of questions I encounter mid project. Thanks again.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

Cabinetman offered good advice for a warp free bar top but it seems to me to be too delicate of a surface for a "Garage Bar" top. I can picture this top getting pretty rough use, spilled beers, dissecting chain saws, filleting salmon, etc.

I would opt for something more indestructible. Like an old glue-lam beam. I built this table out of old glue-lam cut-offs. It sits outside next to my barbeque. I put several coats of polyurethane on it and it looks almost new after two years outside. You can't really hurt it. And yes, I've spilled beers and filleted salmon on it. I just hose it off.

Bret


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Lola Ranch said:


> Cabinetman offered good advice for a warp free bar top but it seems to me to be too delicate of a surface for a "Garage Bar" top. I can picture this top getting pretty rough use, spilled beers, dissecting chain saws, filleting salmon, etc.
> 
> Bret


Choosing a bar top may depend on what it will be used for.

*IF: * The bar top is really a bench top to be used to chop up a dead deer, or disassemble and rebuild a Chevy 350 V8 or the auto transmission that was attached, and have a can of beer while sliding and tossing tools on it, then even the cutoffs from a glue-lam beam will get all beat to heck.

*OR: * If the bar top is really a bar top to be used as a casual place to serve friends (who loaned you their rug shampooer), some red wine and crackers, or a place to relax with a buddy to have a few cold ones while working on that entertainment center, you may have coasters. If there is some salmon to cut up, or some fresh baked bread to slice, you might even consider using a cutting board.

There's not one surface that is perfect for all uses. You may have an indestructible finish with a stainless steel top, but it won't have the warmth and charisma of other materials. Maybe the bar top in question is exactly that...a bar top for enjoyment that has a specific purpose and is treated as such, like this simple bar:
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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

I will probably just be using it for entertainment purposes. Im in the process of converting my 2 car detached garage into a "man cave" so i figured a bar would be required haha. 

That looks like a great table Lola, very sturdy.

Cabinetman, I'm probably going to design it similar to the first picture you posted. The only difference being a small working area under the actual bartop.

Love the brainstorming though, its giving me tons of things to think about!


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

*Bar Top*

So I finally chose the top for the bar. I picked up some 3/4 plywood and some cherry stock. I resawed some veneer last night(first time doing this) and it came out pretty good. I only cut it to about 1/4 inch but im assuming this should suffice.

So I have another question. Using the plywood substrate can I just screw it into the framing, or should I still use something like the "s" clips to account for movement?

Thanks everyone, appreciate the responses, and just tell me if I'm getting on your nerves. lol


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

You can screw the ply to your frame.

No movement issues with ply. :smile:


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

Sweet, thats makes my life a little easier. Hopefully some pictures to come soon.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

New2Woodworking said:


> suffice.
> 
> So I have another question. Using the plywood substrate can I just screw it into the framing, or should I still use something like the "s" clips to account for movement?


Plywood can be just screwed to the framing.












 







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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks cabinetman.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

New2,

If I'm understanding correctly you are planning to glue the 1/4" solid cherry to the plywood. This will probably work seeing that the top is only 12" wide. I'm not sure that Cabinetman was recommending this method. I thought he was in favor of using hardwood veneered plywood which would be quite stable.

By applying a thick veneer to one side of a piece of plywood you are creating an "unbalanced" condition. If the 1/4" veneer has a very low moisture content when fabricated and is then subjected to a high humidity environment, it might expand causing the top to raise up in the middle. Conversely wetter wood put into a dry place may cup the top. To balance the top, you would have to apply the veneer to the bottom of the plywood as well as the top.

The success of your project could depend on the quality of the plywood and how well it is fastened to the framing underneath. This is a bar, so I'm assuming that there is an overhang which cantilevers and that one edge of the plywood is fastened to a 2 x 4 framed wall or some such. With this much of an unsupported overhang in an "unbalanced" glue up there is a fairly high potential for warp. If the plywood is to be well fastened on all edges then the potential for success will increase greatly. 

If you are planning to use plywood imported from China purchased at HD then you might be doomed..

All this being said, I have had success laying up large inlaid desk tops using thick veneer similar to what you are planning. However, I have always used very good quality plywood and the plywood is always securely fastened on all edges and the field to a substantial framework below. You will also have to protect it from excessive humidity.

The attached photo shows a large desk top using 1/4" veneer laid up on a cabinet grade 3/4" plywood and has always been kept in a heated and air conditioned area (my office). 

Bret


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

*Lola*

I definitly see your point Lola. And yes, cabinetman did suggest the hardwood ply. I might actually still use that method. 

The 1/4'' cherry veneer was more of an experiment that could have lended itself to this project. I saw a video online about how to saw your own veneer and was very tempted to try(especially after seeing the price of pre-cut veneer haha). I built my own jig for the bandsaw and I was quite happy with the results.

Anyhow, back to the bar... It will have an overhang, so it will not be supported on all sides. How could I deal with warping and cupping? Would the hardwood ply and no 1/4'' veneer solve this problem? Humidity control will be an issue because it will be in my garage, not the ideal place for humidity control. I think i may just have to accept there is going to be some warping and cupping and just deal with it.

If this was a bar for inside my home i might be a little more picky and HAVE to deal with it or it would drive me nuts! haha. This is just a place for the guys to get together in the spring summer and fall and have a beer. That being said, I dont want to show off poor planning skills and get busted up about my bar looking like twisted mess haha.

Thanks everyone, as always.

ps. sorry for all the questions. Normally, I have my grandfather, who has been doing carpentry and furniture making for the last 50 years helping me but alas, he's been in Europe on vacation for the last 5 months!! lol.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

New2,

If you built it like this it would prolly work.

Bret


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## Nick6685 (Mar 23, 2011)

*design*

Bret,

Thats crazy, cause around 3am I actually did almost the same thing in sketch up.

Thanks for the advice!


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