# Hybrid Pantorouter



## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts on the hybrid Pantorouter. If you don't know what this is (I didn't) then just google it or go to Youtube and there are videos. Apparently it was designed by a guy in the states and now a guy in Japan (Kuldeep Singh) makes a good quality one. Basically, it uses templates to guide your router and makes nice dove tails, mortises, tenons, etc. 

I am probably going to get one but wanted to see if anyone had any experience with it or thoughts after looking at the videos. 

Thanks!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

SMLWinds said:


> I was just wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts on the hybrid Pantorouter. If you don't know what this is (I didn't) then just google it or go to Youtube and there are videos. Apparently it was designed by a guy in the states and now a guy in Japan (Kuldeep Singh) makes a good quality one. Basically, it uses templates to guide your router and makes nice dove tails, mortises, tenons, etc.
> 
> I am probably going to get one but wanted to see if anyone had any experience with it or thoughts after looking at the videos.
> 
> Thanks!


 Maybe you could post a link or two?

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I've seen them operate but haven't seen real time setup where it actually produced anything. The demonstration I saw was cutting pine. So to me that was only half the story. 

I have a router mounted in a lift that has two positions to route with vertical and horizontal. I cut mortice and tenons with it and haven't seen the need for the pano.

Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there was a post about scooping out chair seats*

This 3D duplicator would be the cat's meow for scooping out chair seats... if you had one to copy.:yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7OH-Q2Vl6Y


the DIY version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtFDotZnN8c


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

While "technically" they are a "pantograph" they lack a refinement of a true pantograph - adjustable arms. More accurately called a duplicator, as they have a 1:1 correlation of pattern and work piece. A true pantograph has adjustable legs to allow enlarging or reducing the work piece, which is what I'm looking for, and when the weather allows, what I'll be attempting to build. Mine should be simpler, as it requires only a fixed depth setting.


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

Here is a link to one of the YouTube videos. I think this thing is pretty impressive, but there is probably a lot out there in the wood working world that I don't even know about yet. Is this an impressive machine or are their other tools and methods of creating joinery like this that are just as good?

https://www.youtube.com/user/hillpanther


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

And here is a link to a pantorouter page:

http://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/

It seems that this guy named Matthias designed the thing and then the guy in Japan (Kuldeep) began making metal ones and selling them.

I think they are pretty neat and probably useful but like I said, I don't know what else is out there so there may be 5 different jigs/tools that would be just as easy and reliable.

I would love to hear whether you guys think this is unique, useful, and worthwhile owning. Thanks!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

SMLWinds said:


> Here is a link to one of the YouTube videos. I think this thing is pretty impressive, but there is probably a lot out there in the wood working world that I don't even know about yet. Is this an impressive machine or are their other tools and methods of creating joinery like this that are just as good?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/hillpanther


Thanks for the link.
It's a really nice machine. I'm sure the price of building it is too. I have a pretty nice mortise machine, actually two of them and they don't cut 4 at a time but to me it's like the Incra jig that makes multi colored dovetail joints. I just don't have any call for those type of joints. 

If I had seen this type of machine before I built my mortiser, I might have built it.

Is this guy selling the machine, plans or just showing his work? 

Al


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

guess its neat. It still cant make square mortises... 

link above sells the plans ($18) or a bult metal version for $800.


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

Yes, $18 for plans to build a wooden one or $790 to buy the prebuilt metal one, which looks to be pretty nice quality.

Someone educate me--am I correct in assuming square mortises are better than round? No, it can't do square mortises, but I think it can do a lot of other things (there are numerous Youtube videos).

If people have something they feel does the same job (or does so at least for a mortise and tenon), I would be interested in seeing a link. This looks pretty nice and easy to me, but again, I am ignorant and don't know what is out there that I have never seen. Thanks!


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

I think the key to square mortises are that the tenons can be cut on a table saw. set the dado up, and you can rip countless tenons in no time. Thats the key to me.

Where a rounded one, you can make the mortise easier, but you have to round the tenon too. Each one gets clamped individually.

Easy tenons vs easy mortises. pick your poison.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

bauerbach said:


> I think the key to square mortises are that the tenons can be cut on a table saw. set the dado up, and you can rip countless tenons in no time. Thats the key to me.
> 
> Where a rounded one, you can make the mortise easier, but you have to round the tenon too. Each one gets clamped individually.
> 
> Easy tenons vs easy mortises. pick your poison.


Or both, that pantoouter will cut tenons too


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*so much depands on the application*

Round vs square.... mortises or tenons.... power vs hand work ...

A hollow chisel mortiser will make square holes/mortises and so will a mortising chisel and a mallet.

A router will make a rounded corner mortise every time, but you can square the corner with a mortising chisel and a mallet.

A tablesaw or bandsaw will make square tenons every time, but you can round it off with a file or a sander.

Size matters they say, so it is in woodworking. A large tenon and mortise in a farmer's table is a different issue than a similar joint on a small end table, just a difference in scale/size. That difference may require a different method since more wood has to be removed.

Various combinations of Forstner bits and drills can also be use to "waste" away the center of a mortise, followed by hand chisels. So there's a process that is more efficient for each different application.

The Festool Domino makes a rounded hole and uses a round loose tenon to join the pieces, another solution using a hand held power toll. Which brings up the issue of cost and the number of units required. Making a few mortises by hand may be the most cost effective solution for someone starting out, or who just wishes to use hand tools. 

I had a project, a Mission style quilt rack, where I started out with a Powermatic 701 hollow chisel mortiser and then moved to a plunge router and a mortising jig I threw together because it was so much faster, easier and I had a bunch to do. I just squared up the corners with a stout mortising chisel:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/mission-quilt-rack/


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

I fully understand what everyone is saying about making mortises and/or tenons. I do understand that round tenons are somewhat of a pain and square mortises are somewhat of a pain. Yes, there are ways to do them and yes, there are numerous jigs/devices that can help but in the end, they require a little effort and if you are making a lot of them, most would probably say they are at least a little bit of a pain in the neck. You have to round off tenons by hand or square up mortises by hand and that slows you down and requires time and effort.

This is why I think this pantorouter is a spectacular idea. In seconds, you can make a rounded mortise that matches perfectly with a rounded tenon. There is no trial and error trying to match them by hand and you get a snug fit every time. 

What am I missing? I would think everyone would agree this is a pretty impressive machine that makes something that is challenging regardless of how you do it and makes it pretty simple!


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

simple? it appears so. quick? maybe

again, I can cut a zillion square tenons on a table saw, in seconds. compare that to cutting them individually on this thing.

The mortise side would be the savings, is it faster than a chisel or mortiser machine? so much faster as to overcome the time spent on tenons? 

It does alot of other stuff too though. It is a *little* limited in that you need to make a template first, so there are a finite number of dimensions you could make off hand. 

Ill probably try it someday, if I can find the space to put it lol.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

bauerbach said:


> I think the key to square mortises are that the tenons can be cut on a table saw. set the dado up, and you can rip countless tenons in no time. Thats the key to me.
> 
> Where a rounded one, you can make the mortise easier, but you have to round the tenon too. Each one gets clamped individually.
> 
> Easy tenons vs easy mortises. pick your poison.


With my machine I prefer a loose tenon. I can make a mile of them in a heart beat and the machine cuts the mortise in about 5 to 6 seconds. If your making one piece cutting square tenons may be fine time wise. But the argues task of building 6 dining chairs is greatly sped up with the machine cut mortise and tenon.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

SMLWinds said:


> I fully understand what everyone is saying about making mortises and/or tenons. I do understand that round tenons are somewhat of a pain and square mortises are somewhat of a pain. Yes, there are ways to do them and yes, there are numerous jigs/devices that can help but in the end, they require a little effort and if you are making a lot of them, most would probably say they are at least a little bit of a pain in the neck. You have to round off tenons by hand or square up mortises by hand and that slows you down and requires time and effort.
> 
> This is why I think this pantorouter is a spectacular idea. In seconds, you can make a rounded mortise that matches perfectly with a rounded tenon. There is no trial and error trying to match them by hand and you get a snug fit every time.
> 
> What am I missing? I would think everyone would agree this is a pretty impressive machine that makes something that is challenging regardless of how you do it and makes it pretty simple!


I agree. Andfor me I would build it from the plans rather than buy it. Also your going to spend a lifetime making templates. The learning curve for that will be another investment in time. In the video he showed an enormous joint only found in a few pieces of furniture. My guess is he shows that joint because it looks amazing like the Incra joints. But nobody uses them.

Have you looked at the wooden gear guys pano? Ive seen where a lot of woodheads have built his machine.

Al


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## SMLWinds (Jan 25, 2012)

Al-I would love to see the wood guys pano that you mentioned...I am not aware of anything else similar to this. I would also be very interested in any other jigs, tools, methods, etc. that would be competitors for this. I wouldn't want to buy it and then down the road realize there is a jig that is even easier that I could have gotten instead.

Also, you are right about making templates. But, Kuldeep (the guy that makes the metal ones) has several that he sells. I think you may be able to be constructive with up and downsizing bits to make bigger or small joinery with the same template, but again, that will require some math and maybe trial and error. I think the guy that sells the plans also sells templates, but I don't remember for sure.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

SMLWinds said:


> Al-I would love to see the wood guys pano that you mentioned...I am not aware of anything else similar to this. I would also be very interested in any other jigs, tools, methods, etc. that would be competitors for this. I wouldn't want to buy it and then down the road realize there is a jig that is even easier that I could have gotten instead.
> 
> Also, you are right about making templates. But, Kuldeep (the guy that makes the metal ones) has several that he sells. I think you may be able to be constructive with up and downsizing bits to make bigger or small joinery with the same template, but again, that will require some math and maybe trial and error. I think the guy that sells the plans also sells templates, but I don't remember for sure.


http://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/index.html

This guy actually builtthe wooden machine kuldeep based his metal one on. As far as templates go, matthias goes into some detail on how he makes a few of his, and the math behind it is pretty simple. Everything the router cuts is magnified by either 2 or 3 on the template, depending on how the machine is configured. So, assuming you're using a 1/4 bit and want to cut a 1/2 tenon, all you really need to do is make a 1 (or 1.5) inch tenon as a pattern and use a 1/2 OD bearing as a follower


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

SML
The link to Mathias the gear guy Epic posted is the one I was talking about. 

Al


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## Carpenter96 (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi there I have built and used the wooden version of the Pantorouter. It works fantastic. I cut several hundred mortise and tennon joints and each one fits perfectly. It cost me around $170 and $113 was for the dedicated router. It took about 20 hours of my time. The plans are very well thought out and Matthias Will respond to emails if you buy his plan. I think that I may buy one of the metal versions one day. 

Regards Bob


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## Margaret T (Feb 21, 2016)

The pantorouter was designed by a Canadian named Matthias Wandel. He lives near Ottawa. His website is called woodgears.ca You can buy plans from him or buy the steel one made in Japan.


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## Margaret T (Feb 21, 2016)

The pantorouter was invented by a Canadian named Matthias Wandel. He lives near Ottawa. His you tube channel has many examples of him using it for various things. You can buy the plans to make from wood at woodgears.ca or you can buy a manufactured steel one made in Japan.


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## copythat (Oct 6, 2016)

I just order one and await its delivery. Did you purchase one yourself or decide to build one? I will get some pictures up as I assemble it out of the box.


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

I found it fascinating. Exactly what was the bit he was using.? looked as if made of plastic with a carbide insert.
The speed would be important in a commercial operation and much cheaper than computer controlled.
johnep


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Margaret T said:


> The pantorouter was invented by a Canadian named Matthias Wandel. He lives near Ottawa. His you tube channel has many examples of him using it for various things. You can buy the plans to make from wood at woodgears.ca or you can buy a manufactured steel one made in Japan.


While Wandel is a talented and clever woodworker, he didn't invent it. The pantograph router has been around for a long time. He just labeled his version "pantorouter".

A number of companies have produced many versions. Here's an old one from JC Penny & Co. Nothing fancy like Wandels, but.....

http://www.laurelleaffarm.com/item-...ing-wood-Laurel-Leaf-Farm-item-no-s723165.htm


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

this is a clever machine, no doubt. b


but important to note, the speed to perform the cut is _fast_. what is not shown is the time required to set-up for the alignment of mortise to tenon, which is crucial for good joinery. watching the first video didn't mention any time saving implications with that task. 


I think you will find is that same speed, or time to cut, is very quick on most machinery cutting methods.


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