# MEK (Mineral Spirits) banned in So. California?



## sanvito (Feb 26, 2018)

I need _Mineral Spirits_ to thin out pure 100% tung oil.

I heard that if the labels says "Meets CA VOC Regulations", then it's reformulated, and not the real thing.

I do see these at the stores here:
_Lacquer Thinner
Paint Thinner (replaces MEK and Toluene)
Turpentine
Acetone_

*Will any of these work as substitutes?*

I did find Mineral Spirits in Ventura County, next to LA county.
Klean-Strip Odorless Mineral Spirits for California

*Is this the real thing?*


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## ramonajim (Jan 15, 2018)

MEK = methyl ethyl ketone; this was banned in California in 2011.

Mineral spirits are not MEK, but California has clamped down on this as well.... and in typical California fashion, it's complicated.

If you live in (most of) southern California, you're in the SCAQMD and you're basically screwed.

The rest of California is "just" covered by CARB, so the restrictions are less onerous. At least in theory. In practice, most chain stores are going to carry just the SCAQMD friendly products.

In any case - cans with titles like "paint thinner" are mostly useless - the actual solvents used vary dramatically.

Redefining normal daily


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## sanvito (Feb 26, 2018)

and Turpentine is labeled as "Turpatine" at Home depot.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

sanvito said:


> I need _Mineral Spirits_ to thin out pure 100% tung oil.
> 
> I heard that if the labels says "Meets CA VOC Regulations", then it's reformulated, and not the real thing.
> 
> ...


I will not (nor ever have) used or recommended petroleum-based materials. 

They simply are not the same or give the same results as traditional natural materials. AKA: Pine or Citrus base thinners, which are environmentally sustainable and work in concert with Tung and Flax (and related botanical oils) much better, with a tremendously long history of positive and effective application...


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## sanvito (Feb 26, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I will not (nor ever have) used or recommended petroleum-based materials.
> 
> They simply are not the same or give the same results as traditional natural materials. AKA: Pine or Citrus base thinners, which are environmentally sustainable and work in concert with Tung and Flax (and related botanical oils) much better, with a tremendously long history of positive and effective application...


Great ! I have a bottle of citrus solvent. I wasn't sure if mineral spirits was more "effective".


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

sanvito said:


> Great ! I have a bottle of citrus solvent. I wasn't sure if mineral spirits was more "effective".


The only caveat I would offer is to make sure the oil supplier (and you) are certain of the citrus oil source and quality. Some are adulterated and they are not all the same. Most manufacturers/distributors of natural oils sell the applicable natural thinner as well...

Good Luck,

j


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

sanvito said:


> I need _Mineral Spirits_ to thin out pure 100% tung oil.
> 
> I heard that if the labels says "Meets CA VOC Regulations", then it's reformulated, and not the real thing.
> 
> ...


Lacquer thinner and Acetone are too hot a solvent to use in tung oil. Turpentine is a bit rare around here. I've never tried to thin tung oil with that but I think it would work. You might try a small amount first. 

I've tried three different brands of Odorless mineral spirits including Klean Strip and it ruined the finish I tried it in. I couldn't even use it for clean up so I pitched all three.


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

Either "Mineral Spirits" or "Paint Thinner" will do the job. Odorless is just Mineral Spirits with less odor. 

If you don't trust the product, do a test on a piece of scrap. 

MEK or Methyl Ethyl Ketone is some really nasty stuff and incredibly flammable. I've seen MEK ignited by the hot end of a cigarette. One of its main uses was to deal with potting and protective molding compounds used in the Apollo Space program. 

Many of the other solvents are being formulated with acetone to get around the SCAQMD idiots. 

I don't know if it is still available in SC, but Naphtha is an excellent substitute. The big advantage is that the Naphtha will flash off quicker than either paint thinner of mineral spirits.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

You never said how much solvent you needed. Tank-car load or a few ounces?
For a small amount, I'd visit a fine arts store which supplies paints and solvents for professional artists.
Nearest city of 90,000 to me has a couple of stores with quite a selection in 4 & 8 oz bottles.
DaVinci, Stevenson, Grumbacher, Windsor & Newton. . . . . lots of brands.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

The issue for some is that the State of California has banned certain chemicals that used to be popular for many purposes, including woodworking. Within that, the South Coast Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD) has imposed even further restrictions, banning additional chemicals from most of Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, and San Bernardino Counties. They add to the list of banned chemicals from time to time, too. 

San Diego and Ventura Counties are not affected by the SCAQMD restrictions, but they are subject to California rules.

Banned chemicals in most of Southern California include true mineral spirits. Before the bans, paint thinner was mineral spirits. I don't know what is in today's "paint thinner" here in So Cal, but it isn't mineral spirits. 

Some companies reformulated their products for the Southern California market. I read that Waterlox has two different formulations - one for So Cal, and one for everywhere else. And Waterlox says that you better not mix the two or thin the two in the same way. You need the right thinner for your kind of Waterlox. (I have looked for Waterlox around here, but have yet to find it. Everyone says, "Yeah, we used to carry it, before the ban.")

People talk about "VOC"s here. That stands for Volatile Organic Compounds. I assume that mineral spirits count as a VOC. For example, woodworking finishes that you buy can't exceed a certain percentage of VOCs or they are banned. Of course, people who buy them want to thin them to deal with the issues that arise. If you think about it, thinning turns it into a banned product. Doh!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Can you get solvents in Nevada? It's not that far and a five gallon can would probably last the diy a decade. The finish would be a problem. It wouldn't have near as long a shelf life.


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## Justified (Mar 5, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> Can you get solvents in Nevada? It's not that far and a five gallon can would probably last the diy a decade. The finish would be a problem. It wouldn't have near as long a shelf life.


Yes, I just checked locally it's available in Nevada.


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

I know that the Home Depot on Marks Street (Across from Costco) in Henderson stocks a plethora of solvents. They also don't mind when I park in the back corner of the parking lot and do my finishing there. :vs_laugh: :wink:


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Steve Neul said:


> Can you get solvents in Nevada? It's not that far and a five gallon can would probably last the diy a decade. The finish would be a problem. It wouldn't have near as long a shelf life.


Yes. Not just Nevada, but also Arizona. I presume that you can also buy California-banned solvents in Oregon, which is far from Southern California where I live.

Some people go to adjacent counties (e.g., Ventura and San Diego Counties) to buy solvents that are permitted in the rest of California but banned in the South Coast Air Quality Management District, aka SCAQMD, which covers most of Southern California. 

I assume that people who go outside their areas to buy banned solvents are breaking some kind of law or regulation. I doubt that they target hobbyists for enforcement, but they probably do watch for commercial operations using banned chemicals. I was on a tour of a cabinet making company here in So Cal, and they mentioned that they are regularly inspected for compliance with environmental regulations. The company that was the sole source for foam surfboard cores (used all over the world) closed its business a few years ago, mostly due to constantly changing environmental regulations in Orange County and concerns about legal liability:

https://www.surfer.com/features/cleanupset_vol47_3/

By the way, California state regulations come from the California Air Resources Board (CARB). I note that their acronym is far more pronounceable than "SCAQMD."


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## sanvito (Feb 26, 2018)

I decided to stick with WATER BASED finishes for now, so I can avoid these solvents. 

I can just wash brushes in soap and water, and also wipe down wood with water after sanding. The tack rag seems to work as final dust collector.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

sanvito said:


> I decided to stick with WATER BASED finishes for now, so I can avoid these solvents.
> 
> I can just wash brushes in soap and water, and also wipe down wood with water after sanding. The tack rag seems to work as final dust collector.


The problem with wiping wood down with water is the water raises the grain and it then needs to be sanded again. It's the same problem with waterborne finishes, they raise the grain so you have to do a lot more between the coats sanding and more coats that you would have to do with a solvent based finish.


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## sanvito (Feb 26, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> The problem with wiping wood down with water is the water raises the grain and it then needs to be sanded again. It's the same problem with waterborne finishes, they raise the grain so you have to do a lot more between the coats sanding and more coats that you would have to do with a solvent based finish.


My understanding of water popping is to intentionally get these benefits with WB finishes.

-It raises the wood fibers so the stain goes deep into the wood for a nice finish
-It makes the color stand out

I'm using GF Enduro Var WB, and GF dye stain or SC shellac, all to "simulate" the Oil look. The extra time spent is same amount of time spent cleaning oil brushes which is nasty.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

sanvito said:


> My understanding of water popping is to intentionally get these benefits with WB finishes.
> 
> -It raises the wood fibers so the stain goes deep into the wood for a nice finish
> -It makes the color stand out
> ...


Yes it will make the wood accept the stain better. I just don't like the way it roughens the wood. You could also achieve the same appearance by using a darker stain.


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

sanvito said:


> I decided to stick with WATER BASED finishes for now, so I can avoid these solvents.
> 
> I can just wash brushes in soap and water, and also wipe down wood with water after sanding. The tack rag seems to work as final dust collector.


I buy the cheap brushes from Harbor Freight and throw them away after use.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

NoThankyou said:


> I buy the cheap brushes from Harbor Freight and throw them away after use.


I've been buying walmart brushes and throwing them away. I've never looked at HF brushes. I will have to look the next time I go there.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

For an interesting and different perspective, you may want to look at a recently published book, "The Art of Coloring Wood - A Woodworker's Guide to Understanding Dyes and Chemicals" by Brian Miller and Marci Crestani. 

The authors came to our woodworker's club meeting last month, and gave a very enlightening and different perspective on wood finishes. Brian did most of the talking. He has been teaching wood finishing at one of our local colleges for many years, and he also restores historic homes and furniture, with chemicals that were used 100 years ago, and still easily obtained today. Many chemicals can be carcinogenic or toxic, and the authors emphasize safe handling procedures over and over in the book.

I am only halfway through reading it, and I have not tried out any of their finishing ideas. Nonetheless, the book is an interesting read. I have learned a lot already, much of it useful even if I am lazy and stay with modern off-the-shelf finishes. 

The authors brought a large grid of 4x4 samples of different finished woods with them. One axis was the wood type, and the other axis was finish type, so you could easily see how each type of wood reacts to each type of finish. It was very impressive work.

One thing I learned from the authors was how you can't always trust the labels on finishing products to accurately describe what is in them. He asserted that some tung oils do not have any tung oil in them, and others have very little. Much of what we buy is predominantly boiled linseed oil (BLO). 

Another thing I learned is that the authors prefer a specific kind of bush to tack cloth for preparing the wood for finishing. They claim that tack cloth cannot get into all the tiny spaces, leaving dust behind to degrade the finish. Another thing they say is that tack cloth can leave a residue that interferes with finishes. 

I was impressed with the knowledge that they have acquired over decades of historic research, doing their own extensive testing and experimentation, sending samples to labs, and much more. Read the description of the book before you buy it, to see if it is suitable for you.

The authors live and work in Southern California, so they are well aware of the restrictions on various solvents here.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

No sanding to shred the wood and finish. Use the coarsest steel wool that money can buy.
That stuff has flat strands and it cuts off raised grain like a thousand chisels, without disturbing the finish.
Let a finish coat set up nice and hard to hold up the shredded wood fibers. Cut them off and it won't happen again.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Don't use regular tack rags with water bourn finishes. The leave behind a contamination that water bourns can't handle.


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## danny911 (May 25, 2020)

*Mineral Turpentine question...*

Saw a video on applying Raw Linseed Oil mixed with Mineral Turpentine to a wine barrel to darken/seal it... Wanted to do this but cant find turpentine anywhere.... Is there another substitute to mix with the Linseed Oil I can use? is mineral spirts the same as mineral turpentine? Thank you in advance!!


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

welcome to the forum, Danny.
what part of the world are you in ?

you are asking so many questions, that it will take some time
to explain the properties of each one.
mainly: mineral spirits and turpentine are not the same.
turpentine is very slow drying - so is raw linseed oil. (mineral spirits drys a little faster).
if you do that finish, it should be an outside project for at least six months
to fully dry and cure. (or even longer, if you saturate the wood and put it on heavy).

you said" I can't find turpentine anywhere" , , , where have you looked ??
again - what part of the world do you live ??

.


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## JayArr (Sep 18, 2018)

> I assume that people who go outside their areas to buy banned solvents are breaking some kind of law or regulation. I doubt that they target hobbyists for enforcement, but they probably do watch for commercial operations using banned chemicals.



It depends on how the law is written, is it illegal to own the solvent or is it illegal to use the solvent or is it illegal to import the solvent or is it just illegal to sell the solvent?


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## kiwi_outdoors (Jan 15, 2020)

"Painters Thinner" is what I was sold by Home Depot to use in lnstead of MEK. Seems like it does (so far).


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

KiWi - "Painters Thinner" ??
do you mean the generic Paint Thinner ?
normally, the basic Paint Thinner is 100% mineral spirits.
which is the most common thinner for oil paints and varnishes.

.


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## Mad (Dec 9, 2017)

John Smith_inFL said:


> KiWi - "Painters Thinner" ??
> do you mean the generic Paint Thinner ?
> normally, the basic Paint Thinner is 100% mineral spirits.
> which is the most common thinner for oil paints and varnishes.
> ...



You have to live in California, and within a strict Air Quality Management District, like the BAAQMD, where @*kiwi_outdoors* is located, in order to understand that "Painter's Thinner" is not "generic Paint Thinner", but is rather a marketing euphemism for another formulation of substances that can be lawfully sold as a thinner for painters. Hence Painter's Thinner. Otherwise, it would be called Paint Thinner, like it used to be called for many decades prior to the restriction of sale.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

John Smith_inFL said:


> KiWi - "Painters Thinner" ??
> do you mean the generic Paint Thinner ?
> normally, the basic Paint Thinner is 100% mineral spirits.
> which is the most common thinner for oil paints and varnishes.


"Paint thinner" was mineral spirits here in Southern California a few years ago, too. 

Since the regulations took effect, the "paint thinner" on the shelves have no mineral spirits at all. It wouldn't surprise me to see them renamed "painter's thinner" to distinguish it from the earlier products. That would be a relatively new thing, at least in the places where I see those products. 

According to what I've been told, the approved paint/painter's thinner is based on acetone, and it does not work nearly as well due to the higher volatility and different chemical makeup. 

I have seen other misleading product name changes. They had something called "turpatine" on the shelves, but then whatever it was got removed, too. It wasn't real turpentine. 



JayArr said:


> It depends on how the law is written, is it illegal to own the solvent or is it illegal to use the solvent or is it illegal to import the solvent or is it just illegal to sell the solvent?


Great question. If somebody knows, I would like to learn the answer too.

What I do know is that the regulations are fluid. The CARB and SCAQMD add to the list of banned substances from time to time. I remember seeing a bunch of additional stuff come off the shelves (like Japan Drier and "Terpatine") about a year ago, long after mineral spirits were removed.

I have never seen any substance get paroled off the list of banned substances and reappear on store shelves. I predict that it will never happen.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

I did find Mineral Spirits in Ventura County, next to LA county.
Klean-Strip Odorless Mineral Spirits for California

*Is this the real thing?*
[/QUOTE]

Odorless mineral spirits is the same boiling range (therefor evaporation rate) and 100ºF flash point as mineral spirits, but without any of the aromatic hydrocarbons. Without aromatics, the solvency of the product is much lower than normal mineral spirits.

You can still get the real thing in Nevada. Maybe you have a friend who likes to go to Las Vegas or Reno and would be willing to smuggle some MS home for you.


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## danny911 (May 25, 2020)

Id like to seal the barrel like the video but I cant get turpentine in California.... I am looking for a substitute if there is one that will produce the same effect as the video, sealing/darkening of the barrel. These will be used in the back yard in open air..... any suggestions? Thank you!


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## below_the_salt (Oct 22, 2018)

NoThankyou said:


> Either "Mineral Spirits" or "Paint Thinner" will do the job. Odorless is just Mineral Spirits with less odor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They banned Naptha in the paint aisle, but if you wander over to the camping section you can buy it as stove fuel for less than $10gal. at Walmart

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Often "paint thinner" = mineral spirits, at least the products I buy do the same thing.


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

DrRobert said:


> Often "paint thinner" = mineral spirits, at least the products I buy do the same thing.


Not here in the SCAQMD (Orange, LA, San Bernardino, and Riverside Counties). The product labeled "Paint Thinner" has changed considerably in the last few years. It does not contain any mineral spirits, because mineral spirits were banned here a while ago. I have been told it is acetone-based, but have not experienced it myself. (I have old paint thinner on hand from long ago.)

Based on the link posted by @brucet999 above, it appears that what is labeled "mineral spirits" has changed for the rest of California, which falls under CARB. I have no idea what it is. 

It appears that sometime between last summer and the present day, CARB started banning some previously allowed solvents in California, bringing it closer to what was already banned in the SCAQMD. 

Denatured alcohol (DNA) is no longer available. Last summer, I was able to buy a small can at REI as "Alcohol Stove Fuel" even when the SQAQMD banned it as a solvent. If I want to mix my own shellac in the future, I will have to buy Everclear or some other adult beverage. If I buy Everclear and use it to mix shellac, can I be arrested for "failure to imbibe"? :-(

I am upset with how the new replacement products have been mislabeled. The cans have the same packaging and the same old names as the old, banned products, but they are completely different. Many consumers have no idea that they changed. I wonder how many peoples' projects were ruined as a result?

I do not have to be happy with the new substitute products, but please label them in a way where I know that the products have changed and what the new products really contain. All I ask is to be given the information so I can deal with them accordingly. The first step towards that is prominent, clear labeling. 

Imagine if they suddenly eliminated the olives in olive oil, where the bottles are filled with lemon juice, but the label still says "olive oil." :-(


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

sanvito said:


> and Turpentine is labeled as "Turpatine" at Home depot.


You ought to just sit down catch your breath and check things out.
I could not find TURPATINE in Home Depot's website, but I did find TURPENTINE.

In the real world MEK(Mineral Spirits), Mineral Spirits could never be mistaken for MEK. Trust me on that one. 

Paint Thinner would never really replace MEK or Toluene as a solvent. Solvents are purposely formulated for specific chemicals. 

Another statement from your post ".............I heard that if the labels says "Meets CA VOC Regulations", then it's reformulated, and not the real thing."............Not necessarily true unless it says 'reformulated' . What "Meets CA VOC Regulations" really means is ....It meets CA VOC Regulations" 

So what is your real goal? What kind of 'look' and performance do you want? Then we can better help you.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Tool Agnostic said:


> ............................"VOC"s..... stands for Volatile Organic Compounds. I assume that mineral spirits count as a VOC. For example, woodworking finishes that you buy can't exceed a certain percentage of VOCs or they are banned. Of course, people who buy them want to thin them to deal with the issues that arise.* If you think about it, thinning turns it into a banned product. Doh!*


Funny you should bring up that point. I sold my shop in late 2012 and haven't been active since, so I can only speak for back then. 
I used Gemini Pre-Cat lacquer. It stated somewhere that it was not to be thinned. It was the consistency of maple syrup. I called Tech Support and asked if i can thin even though it says I cant. The Tech Support guy said it is highly* not* recommended. I knew where this was going so I jokingly rephrased to " If I did use lacquer thinner, will it cause a nuclear explosion and annihilate all of coastal Texas?." He said that all he could say is it is not recommended but it should not cause any problems with the finish itself. It then became silently apparent that VOC's were at issue.

It actually was a fun conversation for both of us.


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Good tip.

Do you know the specs? Boiling range, aromatics content, flash point?


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## brucet999 (Feb 23, 2019)

@tonyb said
"I used Gemini Pre-Cat lacquer. It stated somewhere that it was not to be thinned. It was the consistency of maple syrup. I called Tech Support and asked if i can thin even though it says I cant. The Tech Support guy said it is highly not recommended. I knew where this was going so I jokingly rephrased to " If I did use lacquer thinner, will it cause a nuclear explosion and annihilate all of coastal Texas?." He said that all he could say is it is not recommended but it should not cause any problems with the finish itself. It then became silently apparent that VOC's were at issue.

Oh, the joys of working in SCAQMD country!

Years ago, I worked in the paint industry in SoCal. South Coast AQMD had proposed a new and very strict VOC limit for paints and then scheduled a meeting for industry to comment. Speaker after speaker said that the rule was impossible to meet. Then a guy from a small manufacturer stood up and announced that he had formulated a paint that met the new rules. The board members could scarcely contain their excitement as the man held up a quart sample can. The guy then removed the lid, inverted the can and said, "The only problem is I can't get it out of the can."


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

I dont know if the laws in Texas have changed or not in the last 7 years or so. 
But if I could not get methylene chloride, I would not even think about furniture stripping. There really is no good substitute for it. 

Also, I am curious - does the ban or change of chemical formulas used in finishing furniture apply only to individual consumers or does it apply to commercial and industrial users also?


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