# More hand planes



## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

I have just recently got in to hand planes, i got my first low angle block plane 3 three weeks ago and quickly found why people love hand planes since then i got a Stanley no.4 plane and another jack plane .My question is what type of plane do I need to plane the face of a board is that just a smoothing plane? and if so i would like to try and find a one cheap like off of ebay as I am a high school student and do not have much in the way of a budget. Any info. is greatly appreciated 
-The High School Woodworker


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Maybe expand you search options to flea markets, junk stores and ect, you still must get #5 through 8 anyway.
#6 and #7 do a fine finish job for me.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

How large of a board are you wanting to face plane? You presently have all that is needed to face joint (flatten and plane) small short boards. If you are doing projects such as boxes etc no prob. Cut your boards to rough length prior to working them.

Jack plane are called jack planes for a reason. They are basically a jack of all and master of none. It's a mid sized plane and falls between your larger jointers and smaller smoothers. That said it's can do any of those jobs - just not as well as one designed for it. 

I'd suggest you tune up the jack plane and grind a radius on the iron (blade). The radius is generally that of an 8' circle but that need not be exact. You would also widen the throat by retracting the frog (part that is bolted to the base which the iron and cap iron are clamped too). After doing this you have set your jack plane up to function as a scrub plane. This can make quick work of rough planing and jointing the face of the board.

You would then use the 4 as a smoother to then smooth the face. 

The block plane has no use for this application, by the way.

If you are jointing larger boards it would be beneficial to have a larger jointer plane such as a 7 or 8 but a 6 foreplane is capable.

Don't feel like you need to go and buy one of each size, you quite simply don't need them all. I do not own a 7... I have no need for one as I rarely use a 6 and always joint with an 8. Had I no 8 but a 7 I would get by with that. 

You are young and have you're entire life to collect tools... Take your time and be patient when tool shopping. Go for quality over quantity. Not to say you need Lei Nielson planes but look for older Stanley / Bailey and maybe Sargent planes that have not been abused and have plenty of iron(blade) left.

Hope that helps


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Benny Blanco said:


> Maybe expand you search options to flea markets, junk stores and ect, you still must get #5 through 8 anyway.
> #6 and #7 do a fine finish job for me.


I looked at the 6 and 7 planes. You can use planes that long for finishing and smoothing the face of a board


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Firemedic-thanks for that post it really was helpful ,but what does putting a radius on the iron mean exactly, like rounding it? and what does that help with.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

AmericanMaple said:


> Firemedic-thanks for that post it really was helpful ,but what does putting a radius on the iron mean exactly, like rounding it? and what does that help with.


Instead of the edge being a straigh 90 deg to the side it's instead a slight curve outwards. It gives the blade a skewed shearing angle. That plus a wide open mouth allows the plane to take big bites :thumbup:


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I guess it just depends on the individual.
I tend to start the attack on warped board with a pair of #5 planes one set for a pretty deep cut, the other a bit less of a cut. Hitting the high spots and knocking them down.
Then followed by a #6, and finished off with a #7.

This is a project I just completed, the hard maple table on a vintage Dewalt radial saw.
There was a missing piece of maple, the replacement can be seen behind the fence. the table was warped and separating, I repaired where it was separating, cut the missing piece. Also dadoed out the woggled crosscut track, glued in a strip of maple there.
With the fence board removed, the table clamps pushing the two sliding table pieces against the fixed main table, I hand planed the entire table with the #6 and #7. Not concerned about removing all of the saw tracks, just flattening all the table pieces, and the strip I installed for the crosscut track.
The table and its moving pieces are now flat within a few thousandths of an inch, I didnt sand this afterward. the color variation is from the high spots being cut down.








A flat table is critical with this type of saw.

There are many ways to go about planing, and blade camber and more, I only just ever so slightly round the edges of plane blades.
I dont always plane straight with the grain, or always hold the plane straight, it would not have been possible to get that saw table flat without skewing the plane, and going at angle to the wood at times, sort of a slicing action at some points in that process, on that particular piece.

Probably depends where you are, the most I have paid for a hand plane is $24, most being $5 to $15.
My new high dollar "$24" Sargent duplex rabbet Plane, found in flea market, Newport Oregon.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh horror! You don't have a scrub plane?

Just teasing, and the reason for that is to point out that the OP doesn't need to feel like they are unable to accomplish the task unless he has every single plane. 

As I pointed out, large boards or a table in your case would benefit from a larger plane such as a jointer. 

So really, I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply pointing out that if he's building jewelry boxes or the likes he doesn't need a jointer. A plane is a plane the size you use depends on the size of the task.

Were you able to get the guide rod and fence for that sliding filister / rebate plane? Looks like it's in nice shape. Do you have a project in mind to use it on?


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Benny- Wow that entire table done with a plane verry impressive and that plane for so cheap definitely going to local flea markets thanks for the tip although I don't know how many I will find in so-cal


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Oh horror! You don't have a scrub plane?
> 
> Just teasing, and the reason for that is to point out that the OP doesn't need to feel like they are unable to accomplish the task unless he has every single plane.
> 
> ...


Yes for right now what I have will work but one can never have enough tools right Haha


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I realized that, the fellow was buying planes on ebay, cost a bit more that way, and with shipping.
I found the best deals on planes on the oregon coast, probably from boat building back in the old times.

That rabbet plane is unused and complete with fence and depth stop.
I will probably have to attempt to do a rabbet with it.
What I wanted one for is, to level the speaker board mounts that are below the surface and on the inside of the speaker cabinets I make.
With this plane, and with the blade mounted in the forward slot, I can get to very near the ends "corner", and along the edge.
Because, I cant seem to get those in straight in the first place!!

The flea market where I found this Sargent, also had a Wards Master "Stanley" duplex rabbet plane-same price- new condition.
I picked this one because, it has the little nub handle up front.
I have used it, works good.

If one happens to be in Newport Ore, may be worth checking out this place, "next to the Dollar store, and Napa auto parts", lots of nice old woodwoking tools- had a Stanley #45 for $60- no extra blades, but looked pretty good.

Being planes are pretty cheap where I am, I find it nice to have them all, and some in pairs.
# 8 has eluded me so far being a cheapskate, but I will find one:thumbsup:


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

AmericanMaple said:


> Benny- Wow that entire table done with a plane verry impressive and that plane for so cheap definitely going to local flea markets thanks for the tip although I don't know how many I will find in so-cal


Thanks for that,
I was pretty much stuck with what I have to work with on that saw.
The alternative was to do what most do, is replace the table with toxic MDF, I refuse to do that.
But its really not that hard, took a couple of hours to work that table down. Just took my time, constantly checking with a straight edge.

I have gained experience just by doing it, most everything I do is with salvage wood, or 'warp a roni".
So, if the Antique Road Show comes by, they cant say I compremised the "Patina":laughing:

What I like about #6 is, it has the heft, where the sling weight works for me "momentum".


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Benny Blanco said:


> What I like about #6 is, it has the heft, where the sling weight works for me "momentum".


ya i see what you mean my no.4 like to hop on me some times. I will defiantly look around for a no.6 or a no.7:thumbsup:


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

There are deals to be had on ebay, regardless of shipping costs.

No, they aren't the needle-in-a-haystack 'garage sale finds' where someone gets a mint Bedrock in the box for .25 cents, but you can wait around forever hoping to hit those. 

If you want planes now, keep an eye on ebay. There are lots that come up that will let you get your foot in the door very cheaply. There are also some miscellaneous brands that are made every bit as good as a Stanley but inspire no 'collector' interest, so they sell for dirt cheap. As working tools, though, they're fantastic.

I'd also say the best $10 or $15 you can spend on 'plane related kit' is "The Handplane Book".


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

Here is a 100yr old white oak table top I repaired.
It is made of five boards, they were separating and cupped.
This was all done with hand planes, including the board edges.

The old finish proved damaging to the plane edge, so I used a #5, and cut deep to get under the surface, the same thing will happen on a sanded suface, the edge will get micro chipped.
The #5 has the same narrow blade width as the #4, but the size makes it easier for me to get a grip on, and remove material faster then the wider #6. Because the #6 is wider, takes more force to cut at greater depth. #6 at right,#5 left.
Finish off with #6 and & 7.

One of the problems I had was, some boards are harder then others, the stripe grain ones are very hard.
This is where I go across the boards at various angles in plane path, and holding the plane at angle.
Just going at it straight, the hard boards will not cut the same depth as the softer boards, making the surface wavy.
More or less, slicing the harder boards down, perhaps like cutting bread.

You can see "most of the time", I dont buy the pristine collector grade planes.
I look for function, no weld repairs, good clean "no chips" blade opening in the sole.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

Looks like a fine job on the bevels using a flat soled plane. I'm always a big chicken when I have to do that. I usually do it very slowly with a block plane but still wind up having to clean up the geometry with a file. 

If I recall, Stanley made a specialty plane just for that task decades ago- maybe even a century ago now- but I believe they're quite scarce now (which means $$$ :furious: ).


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Benny- i didn't realize the size difference between the two the 5 and the 6


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Tools said:


> If you want planes now, keep an eye on ebay. There are lots that come up that will let you get your foot in the door very cheaply. There are also some miscellaneous brands that are made every bit as good as a Stanley but inspire no 'collector' interest, so they sell for dirt cheap. As working tools, though, they're fantastic.


do you know any specific brand i should be looking for?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Tools said:


> If I recall, Stanley made a specialty plane just for that task decades ago- maybe even a century ago now- but I believe they're quite scarce now (which means $$$ :furious: ).


The No 72 &/or 72-1/2 :yes: quit making them in the 30's I believe.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

AmericanMaple said:


> do you know any specific brand i should be looking for?


Sargent, Millers Falls, Craftsman, and Winchester all made quality planes up until the mid 1960s. Actually Craftsman were usually made by other to the specifications of Sears by the other manufacturers.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Sargent, Millers Falls, Craftsman, and Winchester all made quality planes up until the mid 1960s. Actually Craftsman were usually made by other to the specifications of Sears by the other manufacturers.


Yep. 
For example, "Simmons" wood planes were made entirely by Stanley as a trade brand for a St. Louis Tool retailer and are dead spec =/= to a Bailey #4. 

Now that 'plane collector mania' has died out and ebay has brought the contents of everyone's attics to the open markets, it's not like a decent Stanley 4 is out of range, but you can buy one marked "Simmons" for virtually nothing- perhaps $5 or $10 and it's built to same levels of quality we've come to expect out of all Stanleys of that erea. If ones objective is to "collect tools", whatever, but if you're buying them as tools to work wood, there's huge economy in some of these other brands. 

Millers Falls is criminally underappreciated.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Another Stanley made off brand was Lakeside. It too is a Bailey with no name on it... At least the older ones are decent. 

I watched a pre-war Lakeside 4-1/2 top out at $26 on eBay a few days ago. That half what the Bailey would have.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

firemedic said:


> Another Stanley made off brand was Lakeside. It too is a Bailey with no name on it... At least the older ones are decent.


Lakeside was one of the brands sold by Monkey Wards before they went out of business. Sears had Craftsman and then some lesser brands like Dunlap, MW had Powr-Kraft and Lakeside. Not all models of Lakeside are Stanleys - Sargent made a few planes for them too. I don't know who made their saws/drill bits etc. They're still good tool though.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

Don't underestimate the power of ebay + patience + diligence, especially if you're interested in working planes rather than 'collector' planes.

Here's some prewar Stanley's I've purchased very recently from ebay.










If you were to go on a forum- especially one with a tool collector orientation- and ask how much someone should pay for a nice working 71, a nice 12 with intact rosewood handle/sole, a solid 191, a nice Prewar Bailey, etc, etc, you might get an appraisal of 300 or 400 for these. For the lot of 5, I have right at 100 delivered.

Granted, is that a screaming bargain? Yes, I could sell them all for a profit right now. I have the advantage of working on a computer all day (and also have an automated script that informs me instantly whenever buy it now listings are made with certain keywords under certain prices :thumbsup: ) but the point is, deals do pop up and if you're patient and diligent, you don't need to spend fantastic prices to get fantastic working planes.

Also worth noting that the LN versions of some of these would cost an absolute arm and a leg, while not offering much uptick in relative quality over the vintage originals.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

My #7 is marked Wards Master, works great.
I did buy one #5 plane that had problems, no name, just made in USA. The frog "blade holding unit" was not machined where the blade assembly rest, or at the bottom were it mounts to the planes base, and the base was not machined where the frog rest. It just had the thick black finish on those areas. 
Worked terrible, I set the parts up in a milling machine, surfaced all those areas. I look for that first thing now.
Just from my limited experience, planes with the adjusting screw for the frog, that is just below the blade adjust knob, are better.


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Tools said:


> (and also have an automated script that informs me instantly whenever buy it now listings are made with certain keywords under certain prices :thumbsup: )


That sound really helpful could you explain how to do that if you don't mind?


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

AmericanMaple said:


> That sound really helpful could you explain how to do that if you don't mind?


It's something I've developed on a proprietary basis. I think there are some commercial versions that do something similar, although I don't think they're instant. 

Even absent that, you can set up 'saved searches', then use a good auction sniper for when the auctions end. That's REALLY going to set you apart from the pack on antique tools. 

Different products have different levels of buyer sophistication- for example, something like vintage video games is hugely popular with web developers and the 'internet generation' so you can expect that pretty much every bidder is going to be using a sniper, highly sophisticated automated tools, etc. Not the case on vintage tools, so even just using a good sniper will set you well apart.


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

I need to buy a replacement iron and chipper do they come with they come with the screw that keeps the together because the plane i just got is missing that screw :thumbdown:


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## Evilfrog (Aug 2, 2011)

AmericanMaple said:


> I need to buy a replacement iron and chipper do they come with they come with the screw that keeps the together because the plane i just got is missing that screw :thumbdown:


The two Hock sets I just ordered for my Stanley came with screws.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm late to this thread so please excuse me; but I have a question of the OP. You want to face plane. Are you working rough sawn lumber or just removing planer ripples? If you are just cleaning up S2S lumber your #4 is the tool. You state that the 4 jumps a bit or chatters. Your iron may be extended too far beyond the chip breaker or it may not be sharp enough. Even a light weight plane should cut smoothly. 

If you're planing rough. Firemedic told you how to turn a Jack into a ForePlane by putting an 8"+/- radiused edge. Some folks prefer a Scrub Plane, which uses a radiused iron; but in a short, smoother length body.


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Wrangler said:


> I'm late to this thread so please excuse me; but I have a question of the OP. You want to face plane. Are you working rough sawn lumber or just removing planer ripples? If you are just cleaning up S2S lumber your #4 is the tool. You state that the 4 jumps a bit or chatters. Your iron may be extended too far beyond the chip breaker or it may not be sharp enough. Even a light weight plane should cut smoothly.
> 
> If you're planing rough. Firemedic told you how to turn a Jack into a ForePlane by putting an 8"+/- radiused edge. Some folks prefer a Scrub Plane, which uses a radiused iron; but in a short, smoother length body.


It's mostly rough but I did learn and got my #4 to stop chattering but I'm still not grasping the concept of the radius. Is it really just rounding the iron?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

AmericanMaple said:


> It's mostly rough but I did learn and got my #4 to stop chattering but I'm still not grasping the concept of the radius. Is it really just rounding the iron?


It is indeed just rounding the cutting edge. See attached picture of my Foreplane.


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## AmericanMaple (Oct 13, 2011)

Wrangler said:


> It is indeed just rounding the cutting edge. See attached picture of my Foreplane.


Thank you now I see ill have to set up one of my planes with one. As for creating the edge do you just shape it with a grinder


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

AmericanMaple said:


> Thank you now I see ill have to set up one of my planes with one. As for creating the edge do you just shape it with a grinder


I just shaped it freehand on a grinder. That plane is a 15" long Columbus Tool Co. Jack. The iron is laminated tool steel over mild and 1/4" thick at the business end. I made 3 attempts at grinding to get the bevel so the heel didn't hit the work piece before the cutting edge. I can hog off 1/8" shavings with the old girl. I can flatten a board almost as fast as a guy with a jointer and planer; with a lot less noise.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

"with a lot less noise"
They do make a pleasing sound when sharp.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Benny Blanco said:


> "with a lot less noise"
> They do make a pleasing sound when sharp.


Taking an 1/8" of oak at a pass is note as pleasant as a smoother; but no screaming.


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