# Sticky surface after staining



## feldmakg (May 8, 2016)

Hi,
 I'm restoring an old 1940's Ward Tombstone Radio. I'm part way through applying a finish to new veneer. I'm concerned that my last application of Oil Stain with added Artist Oil Color is still tacky after one week. Will this cause me problems when I try to use a filler on the wood grain and then apply a spray lacquer finish? Advice needed.

Here are the details of what I have done so far:

The veneer on the cabinet was in very bad shape. I removed all the veneer and replaced it with new Red Oak Veneer using Heatlock Glue by Veneer Supplies, Veneer Softener and a Hot Iron. (Think Hot Melt Glue).

After putting on the veneer, I sanded it smooth, finishing with 220 Grit paper. I applied Minwax Pre Stain Wood Conditioner and an application of Minwax Wood Finish Oil Penetrating Stain (English Chestnut) on the same day. I wiped off the excess stain within 15 minutes. As the result was not dark enough, I applied a 2nd coat of stain on day 2, and another coat about a week later. I wiped both off within 15 minutes of application. The wood was still not dark enough. I think some of the glue permeated the veneer and limited the ability of the stain to soak in.

A week later, I decided to add some Artist's Touch Oil Color (Burnt Umber) to some more Minwax Oil stain. I squeezed out about a 2 inch bead of the Oil Color from the tube and dissolved it in an ounce of Paint Thinner. I then mixed this in to 8 ounces of Minwax Oil stain. I applied this to the veneer and wiped it off within 15 minutes. I finally have the color I want on the veneer. Note, it was a damp rainy day and my unheated garage was about 60 Degrees.

Fast forward a week of rainy 40 to 60 degree weather. the surface feels slightly "tacky". It has a slight gloss to it, almost as if I had applied some furniture polish. I "vigorously" wiped down the veneer with a cloth. It picked up some brown color but never saturated the cloth. Think of running your hand over a damp newspaper. The finish is still tacky to the touch. As a test, I securely applied a piece of Blue Masking Tape to the finish, and then removed it. The tape came off clean without any residue on it.

I'm not sure if I will have an adhesion problem if I move ahead with the wood finishing. I'd like to proceed with Behlen's Por-O-Pac grain filler (also tinted with the artist color) and then finish up with several light coats of Watco Clear Lacquer (from spray can). 

What's your thoughts?

Let the cabinet dry for another week of forecast sunny weather and continue?
Wipe down the cabinet with paint thinner and continue
Something else?

I don't want to move ahead and create a mess that will require stripping down to bare wood. Note, I also have a small test piece I can play with. Thanks for your help.

Ken


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm sorry but you have several mistakes to contend with. The first is the wood conditioner. You shouldn't use a wood conditioner with oak wood. The wood conditioner is designed for woods that blotch such as maple or alder. Oak is not a wood prone to blotch and using a conditioner makes the wood harder to take a stain because a conditioner is a sealer. 

Oak wood generally stains very easy and uniform. It's unnecessary to sand it beyond 180 grit and really doesn't need very much sanding at that grit. By sanding to 220 grit it so polishes the wood, the wood resists the stain making it more difficult to achieve the color you want. 

The next issue is you can't apply a stain like paint and let it sit and dry. It always has to be wiped off. Any stain dried on the surface will cause adhesion problems with the finish. The finish would adhere to the stain on the surface and peal off. It's a bad practice to apply a second coat of stain. Wood will only accept so much stain with the first coat and seals the wood at the same time. If a darker color is needed a darker stain should have been used with the first coat. It's always a good idea to test the stain on some scrap wood before committing it to the project. At that time you could have added artist color to the stain and it would have worked fine with most stains. Minwax on the other hand resists having pigments added to it. A technician at Minwax advised me to use a dye stain when altering their stain. 

From where you are if it were me I would wash the radio down with lacquer thinner removing as much as possible anything on the surface. Note: be sparing with the lacquer thinner on areas of new veneer especially since you think hot melt glue is involved. It can easily lift the veneer. Mineral Spirits is a milder solvent and might work but your stain has sat for a week. Mineral spirits can also lift hot melt glue so keep the exposure to any solvent to a minimum. Once you get the residue off the surface it should dry within an hour. From there if it's too light you can supplement the color with a dye stain or a gel stain. Again, test the color on scraps first and see if you like it first. These stains will color the wood without causing any long term adhesion problems. The dye stain is more similar to ink and the gel stain was developed to be used on a textured fiberglass door to make it look more like real wood. It has a binder in it that will adhere to the sealed wood.


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## feldmakg (May 8, 2016)

Hi,
Thanks for your feedback, I really appreciate the help. As an FYI, I replaced all the veneer on the cabinet (1941 Ward Radio) except the top center piece, which is some kind of wood burl. It was in good shape. The rest was missing or literally falling off. I'd like the new veneer to have the same overall tone as the existing veneer. See the pictures. 

Anyway, I did two wipes of the cabinet using Lacquer Thinner and one wipe with Paint Thinner, I used lots of paper shop towels, making sure I just wasn't spreading the stain around. I have one small spot of veneer lifting, but it was present before the above wipes. I will fix it before working on the the finish. The cabinet now looks like it did after the first staining (including the light areas). I'd like the end result to look a little more like the original finish on the radio. As I see it the problems are:
- The stain on the oak veneer is too light as compared to the burl center piece
- I have some light areas - blotches
- The grain looks a little too bold.

I was thinking of the following steps:
1) Darken up the stain color, especially the light blotches, using a dye stain or a gel stain.
2) Applying tinted wood grain filler to lighten up the grain pattern a little and make the wood smoother.
3) Finishing off with several light coats of lacquer from a spray can.
Alternately, I did purchase a can of spray lacquer toner. The gotya is this will be the first time for me doing any of the above. 

Now for the questions. Also, the original response suggested using a dye or gel stain. I'm not familiar with them. * Can you use them over the existing oil pigment stain? What brands do you suggest? Which is easier /harder to mess up - Dye or Gel Stain? If this was your radio cabinet, what would you do to salvage this project? * This Newbie needs help. Thanks in advance. 

Ken

P.S. See the pictures


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The second picture appears to be something like glue has sealed the wood on the round circle and the two places to the lower right. If that is what it is then sanding is the only fix and re-apply the original stain. Try to sand the whole area instead of the spots. It's the only way to make it uniform is to sand it pretty uniform. The middle left appears to be a sand through in the veneer. Not being there to actually see it I can't really tell if it's a glue stain or a sand through. The third picture appears to be another glue stain. When ever you work with wood and glue it often gets messy. If you would wash these spots off with a wet rag it would prevent these spots from happening. Wetting the wood can make it's own spots though. It raises the grain where it will stain darker if the wood isn't sanded afterwards when it dries. 

The stain on the oak is too light because of the wood conditioner. When you stain it again try using a darker stain. If you want to subdue the striped look to the wood use a water base stain when you go back. 

At this point I wouldn't advise using a grain filler. If there is still some finish in the open grain you may have some adhesion problems with the filler. 

If you are not accustom to spraying toners I don't think I would try it on a project that big. What a toner is is thinned down paint. It's difficult to apply it uniform so a cabinet that large you have a good chance of making it blotchy. Try spraying a sheet of white paper and see if you can get it uniform. 

Just be sure to practice anything you use on some scraps first. You sure don't want to have to be using lacquer thinner on it anymore.


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## feldmakg (May 8, 2016)

Hi,
Thanks for your patience helping a newbie. I'll sand down the light areas and reapply the original stain to them as mentioned above. I'll skip the grain filler as suggested.

I'm confused about the statement - "When you stain it again try using a darker stain". Can you clarify?
- Do you mean trying another application (and wiping) of Minwax Wood Stain (oil)? I tried this approach already (i.e. my first post) and it didn't darken the wood unless I did a "Dirty Wipe".
- Or do you mean I should try something like Minwax Gel Stain? If so, can you give me pointers on using the Gel Stain. 
- Or do you mean something totally different? 

Finally, assuming I am successful getting the wood the right color, do my original plans to finish with a Lacquer "spray can" finish still make sense? 

Again, thanks for your help.

Ken


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

feldmakg said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for your patience helping a newbie. I'll sand down the light areas and reapply the original stain to them as mentioned above. I'll skip the grain filler as suggested.
> 
> I'm confused about the statement - "When you stain it again try using a darker stain". Can you clarify?
> ...


What I was trying to say is if you sand just those spots and try to touch up the spots with stain those spots will be lighter or darker than the rest of it. All of the oak will need to be sanded. If the veneer is thick enough you can do extra sanding on those light spots but all of it will need sanding or you won't have a chance of getting the color uniform. What you have put on there before has sealed the wood and it will resist staining. Once sanded then select a darker stain than you have been using to stain the oak again. If that doesn't do it you might then use a gel stain. You can allow a gel stain to dry on the surface so long as you don't put it on too thick. I think though if you are trying to make the oak look more like the walnut then a water based stain would be a better choice. The pigments don't penetrate as much as the minwax stain does. This penetration is what is making the soft part of the grain much darker and stripped looking.


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## feldmakg (May 8, 2016)

Hi,
I sanded the veneer where surface glue interferredwith my original application of stain. As I had applied 4 applications of stain, I wiped down the radio cabinet three times, twice with Paint Thinner and once with Lacquer Thinner. This removed the excess surface stain and the stickiness. Basically, it brought the cabinet back to the state where it had only the original application of stain. I spot touched up the unstained areas where I sanded to remove the glue. At this point, the stain was too light, but was completely dry and there was no hint of stickiness.

I then applied Minwax Hickory Gel Stain to the cabinet, making sure I wiped off the excess before it dried per vendor instructions. The color is just what I'm looking for. Today, I touched up a few edges today using a dry wipe brush technique. I've got a couple of other projects going, so I will let the cabinet sit for a week or two, and then apply several light coats of Spray Can Lacquer. I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel on the cabinet restoration. I will begin working on the radio electronics next month. Yeah!

Thanks to folks for giving me advice on how to get past my sticky surface hurdles! This web site rocks! See the attached picture of the Radio Cabinet after application of the Gel Stain.

Ken


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It looks good. Since you are working with a gel stain, spray a few very dry coats on the places you dry brushed it. Chemically a gel stain is like you took an oil stain and mixed some varnish with it. The varnish portion of it is an oil based product which might lift because of the solvents in lacquer. It would probably only do it with a juicy wet coat of lacquer on those spots but it's best to be careful. 

Put a couple coats of rattle can lacquer on the cabinet and then scuff sand the finish with 220 grit or finer sandpaper or extra fine Glit sanding pad and spray a third coat. If the finish isn't smooth enough or seems thin scuff sand it again and put a fourth coat. You can keep sanding and spraying lacquer until you get the desired finish.


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