# Power tools for a hand tool shop - recommendation?



## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Greetings,

Wasn't sure whether to put this in the hand or power tool section, but as my goals are oriented to hand tools figured I'd put it here. Hope that is ok.

I have progressed over the past year from beginner to advanced beginner. Aside from a circular saw, I only own hand tools - 1 plane, and a few saws. I've built a few things with this and have loved it enough to know I have the bug, and want to upgrade.

I want to stay focused on hand tools. But I am desperate for some power tool help - I am very constrained by the time it takes me to square a board. My next project is to make a saw bench and the thought of having to rip all the wood straight and then square it - ugh....

Time for some power tools....

What do you recommend? I am at the point of my life/career where quality matters and I am willing to invest. I am planning to spend about $3,000. 

Option A: Sawstop Professional cabinetsaw
Option B: Jet or equivalent band saw, 18 inches or 20, 120 volt, and a 12 inch sliding miter saw, and a jointer plane

I know that a bunch of the hand tool guys advocate for the band saw over the table saw. Not quite sure why. I know you have to clean up cuts but I am ok with that - love planing. Safety is a primary concern and this is a safer option. Obviously it cuts curves though at this point I haven't had a need for this.

I was aiming towards option A, maybe because I am more familiar with a table saw. The sawstop is obviously a beast, and as safe as a table saw can be. My understanding is that if squaring a board is the primary concern this is the best tool. It seems much easier to do repeated cuts with this eg.

Thoughts? My priorities are safety, and then squaring/dimensioning. I am not working with rough lumber if that matters (or at least haven't). 

I'd love to hear what you have in your shop and what you'd choose for a first power tool to supplement your hand tools?

Thank you!

Eric


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I have a table saw, a sliding compound mitre saw, and a bandsaw.

Each tool has unique capabilities.

If you want to rip a board, then the table saw is king. 

I would not want to rip on a bandsaw. The strip would be too inconsistent in thickness to be easily used.

If you want a wide crosscut, the table saw is again king.

If you want to cut thick stock, the bandsaw is king.

If you want to cut circles, the bandsaw is king.

If you want to make compound cuts, the sliding compound mitre saw is king.

So what types of cuts do you want to be able to perform?


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Hi Dave,

I only know what I want to do today with not enough knowledge to know what I want to do in the future. For now though I'd be thrilled if I could take a 2x6 from the lumber yard and get it to size easily, in square. That means a rip and a crosscut. 

I had read that a good band saw will rip well. If it doesn't then this is an easy choice. 

Eric


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## vinnypatternmaker (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi! 
Although all suggestions are based upon thruth and wisdom, we'll add in out 2 cents.
While we (at that time- 30+ years ago),owned 2 cabinet, and 1 contractor saw...
Because of the nature of our work, we soon bought 2 band saws, a jonter, surface planer, and spindle sander :thumbsup: 
WE WOULD RCCOMEND ALL :thumbsup: as a semi-final goal!!!!!
Then again, if safety is an issue (it should be), then go for the Saw-Stop. 
On the other hand,for less money, Grizzly should be a thought !
In any case, a riving knife, left tilt, T-Fence (decent one)p for is good 'nuff), but a riving knife alone still leaves room for a dangerous AKA "Patternmaker'sno-thumb" ang to occur:thumbdown:
Please hear us out, if hand safety is a big issue, then you've no choice but to go for the Saw-Stop :thumbsup:!
Best,
Marena and Vinny


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Eric, I'm in a similar situation to you (without your budget) although I have a few more planes and a compound miter saw in addition to what you have. If it were for me, I would buy the band saw first, but that is because I have many old white oak barn timbers that I would love to be able to resaw easily. I would then use my circular saw for rips with a piece of angle iron for a fence (which can be a pain with narrow boards and is not always perfect) and then using hand planes for any additional work.

Having said that, if you are not looking to resaw wood, and your work to date/near future doesn't entail curves I would go with the table saw (which can resaw some lumber if not too wide). It will perform all the tasks you envision yourself doing in the near future and probably many more that you haven't yet thought of doing. 

I won't weigh in on the Saw Stop versus other brands, that is a personal decision. As Marena and Vinny pointed out there are choices to be made in regards to safety, features and costs - pros and cons for every machine.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I would recommend a little less expensive table saw. Or, if you are stuck on SS, maybe their contractor or hybrid saw. Although if you are using 2 by lumber, and ripping long lengths of wettish 2 by lumber, the 3hp will probably be better for you. Do you have a planer? Personally, I am in the same boat as you with dimensioning stock by hand. It takes too long for the time I have with work, kids, etc. I use a jointer plane to flatten a face and edge a side. Then I use the table saw for ripping and the planer for thicknessing. For that, I'd recommend a table saw, like the Grizzly cabinet saws in the 1500 range shipped, a jointer handplane $100-$400 depending on what you get, a planer if you don't have one. You could get a 12" lunch box for < $400. Or you could spend the remaining money on a 15" stationary. If you got a lunch box with an extra set of blades, you'd be looking at the $2000 - 2200 range spent so far. This leaves you another $800 - $1000 to buy A. a bandsaw, or B. some extra planer knives, and some quality saw blades. 

It's hard to answer your question since each is different and what we make is different and that really does affect what machinery you need. For me though, the jointing operation goes fairly quickly, it's the thicknessing that is time consuming to me. I do think a bandsaw like what you mentioned and a miter saw would also work, but the TS works so well for ripping and crosscutting it's hard to not center your shop around a tool like that. JMHO.


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I made a living as a carpenter/woodworker for 15 years. I went into IT about 20 years ago, so woodworking is once again just a hobby. I was primarily a powertool guy but a few years ago was bitten buy the hand tool bug. I like the Quiet and Solitude that comes with working with the handtools.

That said I've also always like to restore things. Almost anything from old Victorian homes to screwdrivers. My shop is full of tools I have restored. My grizzly cabinet saw was $200 and a few days of sweat Equity. I recently restored a Walker Turner 16" bandsaw I bought for $100. I have restored well over 300 handplanes of all types. My planer is a restored Craftsman (Belsaw) planer.

The list goes on and on, but I couldn't have afforded the quality and quantity of tools buying new. I understand restoration isn't for everyone, but it sure is a fun way to get what you want if you enjoy it like I do. Take a look at my blogs http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/ and http://lumberjocks.com/donwilwol to see some of what I've done.

I'll still never part with my table saw or bandsaws. I don't turn my jointer on a lot (restored delta), and i could probably be convinced to live without my planer, but I also have a sawmill, so I use rough sawn almost exclusively. I like the mix and every hour in my shop is a decision, hand or power.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

ericc22 said:


> I'd love to hear what you have in your shop and what you'd choose for a first power tool to supplement your hand tools?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Eric


Since I have no idea what my projects will be, I need a planer, jointer, bandsaw, table saw, shaper, moulder, drum sander, router tables, and hand tools. But your first power tool IMO, would be a table saw.









 







.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

ericc22 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I only know what I want to do today with not enough knowledge to know what I want to do in the future. For now though I'd be thrilled if I could take a 2x6 from the lumber yard and get it to size easily, in square. That means a rip and a crosscut.
> 
> ...


Bandsaws can rip. I often use my bandsaw to rip boards which are twisted or which do not have a straight edge. I do not consider the resulting edge "good" and follow up on the table saw to get a smooth edge. Others follow up with a jointer.

If you want to work with e.g., 2x6 lumber, I think a table saw would be a good first power tool. I used a Radial Arm Saw for decades before I purchased my first table saw. Now that I have a table saw, I use it on all of my projects. It is the most used power tool for me.

Now that I have a lathe, this is getting a lot of use, but I also use the table saw and bandsaw to prepare the stock for turning.


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## Gary0855 (Aug 3, 2010)

TTT has a good point about old power tools. I also have an old (50's) craftsman 8" table saw,$75,and I love it, an old 6" Rockwell/Delta jointer, $30, it is so smooth and quiet and weights 150lbs. I also have a yard sale craftsman 14" band saw, $75. I did get a Carter bearing set for it, made a huge difference in cutting accuracy.

I have a small shop and space is limited, a cabinet saw is what I wanted, but I had no room. The 8" table saw is smooth and quiet and is big enough for what I do. I can push it to the side and still get the car in the garage.

The most I did to these is to give them a good cleaning, tighten up nuts and bolts and new blades. 

I Just milled up some cherry and used the band saw and jointer to get it square and flat. It's now air drying, but when I go to make something out of it, the table saw will be used most likely. So you need it all at some point in time.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Bandsaw first!*

A bandsaw will RIP accurately ! Mine can cut to within 1/16" often and with 1/32" occasionally, close enough for finish planing by hand. The secret is a proper resaw blade and a tall fence and a properly set up machine. They can cut dovetails by tipping the table to the right and left, they can cut tenons using a stop to limit the depth of the shoulders and for the width of the tenons. Of course everyone assumes they only cut curves, but that's not the case. Blade selection is paramount to get good results. 

I can take a rough split off a log and run it through the bandsaw by eye only, just feeding it a straight as I can and have a result that is darn near straight. I sometimes trim off the ends to get a flat surface on the table, but after that I can follow a chalk line or even a strip tacked to the top if necessary. 
The depth of cut on a bandsaw is without question it's biggest asset. Ripping 6" lumber on a table saw would require 2 passes and flipping the stock. This also means the kerf will fill with sawdust, overheating the blade since it has no escape path. I have often cut 1" rough sawn 4/4 stock into 1/2" pieces by resawing.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Aren't power tools in a hand tool shop an oxymoron?


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

I wouldn't blame him for wanting machines to mill his boards before hand tooling them the rest of the way. I've been wanting to learn more hand tools, but I'm not going to rip a sheet of plywood with a panel saw when I have a table saw. He's basically asking for machines to avoid the boring/frustrating part.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Gilgaron said:


> I wouldn't blame him for wanting machines to mill his boards before hand tooling them the rest of the way. I've been wanting to learn more hand tools, but I'm not going to rip a sheet of plywood with a panel saw when I have a table saw. He's basically asking for machines to avoid the boring/frustrating part.


Oh, I understand the desire for power tools, I just think with power tools, it's no longer a hand tool shop. I'm also not sure that asking hand tool guys for advise on buying table saws will get you the best information.


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Thanks for all the feedback!

And yea, as a couple of you have pointed out the machines are to help me avoid the tedious boring parts. I want to machine to square, and go from there. With family and a job, I have so little time I want to maximize the fun stuff. 

Sounds like the table saw is the way to go. I will look at less expensive options. I am aiming to the SawStop though as I am a careless person, and, I want a tool my kids can use with me. My kids are the ones who told me about the SawStop as that is what they use at school! 

Thanks again. All feedback is most appreciated.

Eric


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*what you don't seem to understand...*

Any wood placed on the table saw must first be flat and can't rock or twist as it is pushed into the blade. If it does rock or twist, it may bind and kickback ....not good. :thumbdown:
So, if you aren't starting with at least one flat side and one square edge you will/may have a problem. A bandsaw is more forgiving. Small variations in the stock can be compensated by the blade flexing, and a bandsaw will not kickback. The blade may bind if the kerf closes or if the stock is twisted radically, and then it will either break the blade or stall the machine. 
A tablesaw kickback can be punishing and sometimes even lethal. An experienced mill operator I know was speared by a kickback from a table saw, into his stomach and lived to tell about it. I've had plywood spin and rotate around and kickback because of operator error on my part. The Saw Stop is good if you can't keep your hands and fingers out of the blade path, but won't prevent a kickback unless the riving knife is installed, a good practice on any tablesaw.

A power jointer is just a hand plane on steroids, in my opinion. At least I use mine that way when I'm dealing with a severely twisted board. I flip the board end for end removing whatever material I see that needs to go. I repeat the process until the board shows signs of being able to pass through and be surfaced completely flat.

If you enjoy the hand planing process and find it theraputic, then I would stay with that and just finish the rough sawn boards using the various planes designed for the purpose.
Reducing the thickness of a board substantially is a job best done with a thickness planer or a router on a sled. Proper holding devices, clamps and vises are all a vital part of the hand plane process as well as a heavy bench that won't move about when you apply the force necessary to get the job done. I personally like to use a hand plane to fine tune a tenon or chamfer an edge or in fitting parts. :yes:


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Thank you. I know I need a flat face and edge that are square to each other. I think though I am in denial about this! : )

I am assuming my lumber yard can get me stock that is well milled. It has been good in general. I am the one that screws it up by handsawing and trying to section my pieces by hand. I should confirm this though. As for the riving knife, based on what I've read, I can't see ever not using it!

Thanks for the useful feedback - great food for thought.

Eric



woodnthings said:


> Any wood placed on the table saw must first be flat and can't rock ot twist as it is pushed into the blade. If it does rock or twist it may bind and kickback ....not good. :thumbdown:
> So, if you aren't starting with at least one flat side and one square edge you will/may have a problem. A bandsaw is more forgiving. small variations in the stock can be compensated by the blade flexing, and a bandsaw will not kickback. The blade may bind if the kerf closes or if the stock it twisted radically and then it will either break the blade or stall the machine.
> A tablesaw kickback can be punishing and sometimes even lethal. An experienced mill operator I know was speared by a kickback from a table saw, into his stomach and lived to tell about it. I've had plywood spin and rotate around and kickback because of operator error on my part. The Saw Stop is good if you can't keep yopur hands and fingers out of the blade path, but won';t prevent a kickback unless the riving knife is installed, a good practice on any tablesaw.
> :yes:


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Eric, either tool will work, but don't buy based on your perception of self-carelessness. Just stop being careless. Please. There is no place for carelessness in woodworking, it's too dangerous. I agree with Bill (woodnthings). The Sawstop may prevent a cut but kickback is still in play and very dangerous. If you aren't going to flatten a face and edge by hand and try to force them over a table saw, do yourself a favor and buy S3S lumber or get a bandsaw.


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Understood. I certainly try my best! Given a choice I'd prefer to pay for the extra safety for sure.

I checked with my lumber yard, the wonderful folks at http://www.woodboardsandbeams.com. They sell s4s wood which is what I thought. So that means to me that the wood I get from them can go right to the table saw. 

I'll pay more for this of course but at least with a table saw and properly surfaced wood I guess I should be ok to start with a table saw? Then I can add the other tools later as needed I am assuming.

Thank you everyone for helping me to think through this. All help continues to be most welcome.





ACP said:


> Eric, either tool will work, but don't buy based on your perception of self-carelessness. Just stop being careless. Please. There is no place for carelessness in woodworking, it's too dangerous. I agree with Bill (woodnthings). The Sawstop may prevent a cut but kickback is still in play and very dangerous. If you aren't going to flatten a face and edge by hand and try to force them over a table saw, do yourself a favor and buy S3S lumber or get a bandsaw.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

ericc22 said:


> I'll pay more for this of course but at least with a table saw and properly surfaced wood I guess I should be ok to start with a table saw? Then I can add the other tools later as needed I am assuming.


Your other option is to joint them yourself with hand planes or a (power) jointer. It sounds like you are moving to a mixed shop. A hand tool shop is when all of the milling and shaping is done with hand tools. No glory or shame any way you go, but find what works for you. If you want to mill with power and do your shaping and every thing else with hand tools then you will need a jointer, planer, table saw and band saw, and maybe a miter saw or radial arm saw. Then you can struggle with whether to get a drill press or use braces? Hand sand or power? etc.... :laughing:


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Wow! That's an intimidating list! : )

I think my plan is to:
1. Buy S4S wood
2. cut to size on tablesaw
3. use power tools (table saw) to complete the cut list
4. hand plane as needed
5. hand tools for joinery
6. hand tools to finish

So yes, not a hand tool shop as I'll have a table saw. Just a hand tool mindset! : )

Then as I go through this I can always consider adding the other tools which could save me $ on the lumber, etc.

Again, thanks for the feedback. This is really helping me to think through what I want to do next, to take one more step into this activity (obsession?)!

Eric



Shop Dad said:


> Your other option is to joint them yourself with hand planes or a (power) jointer. It sounds like you are moving to a mixed shop. A hand tool shop is when all of the milling and shaping is done with hand tools. No glory or shame any way you go, but find what works for you. If you want to mill with power and do your shaping and every thing else with hand tools then you will need a jointer, planer, table saw and band saw, and maybe a miter saw or radial arm saw. Then you can struggle with whether to get a drill press or use braces? Hand sand or power? etc.... :laughing:


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## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

ericc22 said:


> Wow! That's an intimidating list! : )
> 
> I think my plan is to:
> 1. Buy S4S wood
> ...


If you go that way I believe you are limiting the things you can do. You should reconsider a bandsaw. Here are pictures of a toolbox I just made from 2x6's x 8' construction lumber from HD. It was just an exercise to practice making dovetails on the bandsaw. The four corners are all dovetails. My 12 yo grandaughter made the small box with offcuts. I primed the toolbox so the grandkids can finish painting it. This was made completely on the bandsaw and some hand tools. It could not be made on a tablesaw. I find the band saw a safe tool and I am very careful having once had an unpleasant experience ripping on a RAS.


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Thanks Zircon, I appreciate the feedback.

What about this could not have been done on the table saw? Just the dovetails? For what it's worth, I plan to cut my dovetails by hand. 

And, congrats - that's a great looking box you made!

Eric



Zircon said:


> If you go that way I believe you are limiting the things you can do. You should reconsider a bandsaw. Here are pictures of a toolbox I just made from 2x6's x 8' construction lumber from HD. It was just an exercise to practice making dovetails on the bandsaw. The four corners are all dovetails. My 12 yo grandaughter made the small box with offcuts. I primed the toolbox so the grandkids can finish painting it. This was made completely on the bandsaw and some hand tools. It could not be made on a tablesaw. I find the band saw a safe tool and I am very careful having once had an unpleasant experience ripping on a RAS.


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## Zircon (Aug 1, 2009)

ericc22 said:


> What about this could not have been done on the table saw?
> 
> 
> 
> Eric


To get the boards for the box I resawed the 2x's to 15/16" by taking some off each side. That left the thin boards for project lumber for the kids. Since the 2x is 5 and 1/2" wide I suppose you could take the guard off the saw and cut halfway through with the blade all the way up on the tablesaw and then flip it over to complete the cut but that is not something I would do. As others have pointed out the Sawstop will prevent a cut hand but it does not prevent a kickback. I find the bandsaw my go to saw for all cuts that are on small, narrow or short boards that I am not comfortable cutting on the tablesaw either because of the potential for kickback or my fingers would be too close to the blade.


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Thanks Zircon. Yea, resawing like that is something I'd never try on the tablesaw. Definitely a benefit of the band saw.

Tx!


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

My first power tool was a Skil 3/8" variable speed, reversing drill. $100 in 1975 and still going strong. Biggest advantage? 3" screws.
Next, my mother gave me a 71/4" Skilsaw. Never made a straight cut.
I bought a Delta 10" power miter box/chop saw. Now I can cut any angle I like and get it right, even crown molding.
Next, I bought an 8" Delta drill press. Now I can drill accurate holes of any size, grind, drum sand, polish, etc.
Next came a Ryobi 8" band saw and a Ryobi 10" table saw. $100 each, new.
While these tools are not big and not expensive, they make up for my inabilities to eyeball cuts and holes.


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## railaw (Nov 15, 2011)

A little ot, but I just wanted to say I've been through Robson valley with a stop in mcbride once - I recall it as one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.


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## ericc22 (May 10, 2012)

Just wanted to put an end note on this one, and thank everyone for their help!

I have flip-flopped about 23 times.... Bottomline - I am buying a bandsaw. From what I've read and lots of conversations I can do the ripping I need on the bandsaw. Plus I can resaw. And it is safer. The downside is I can't do the dado/rabbets but that is a tradeoff I am willing to make. (Cross cuts aren't much of an issue.) The bandsaw also takes up less space in my shop. I am aiming for a 14" Laguna because it offers the best blend of resaw height in a saw that fits in my shop (ceiling height of 72"). 

Thank you everyone!


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## Rwelch (Mar 11, 2012)

ACP said:


> Eric, either tool will work, but don't buy based on your perception of self-carelessness. Just stop being careless. Please. There is no place for carelessness in woodworking, it's too dangerous. I agree with Bill (woodnthings). The Sawstop may prevent a cut but kickback is still in play and very dangerous. If you aren't going to flatten a face and edge by hand and try to force them over a table saw, do yourself a favor and buy S3S lumber or get a bandsaw.


Who pulls their riving knife? A sawstop does prevent kickback by offering the riving knife. I have experienced some serious kickback incidents over the years but have had "0" count them "0" incidents since purchasing a saw with a riving knife. Unless I am performing a dado cut (no kickback risk) the riving knife is installed. As far as a band saw being safer......hmm maybe. While a bandsaw can rip try managing a rip cut on a 8-10 foot board by yourself and you'll wish you had that table saw.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I currently own a bandsaw, but no table saw. Here's how I figured it, and it seems to work out this way in practice:

1) A tablesaw can rip and, within certain limits, crosscut. The bandsaw can rip, but is more limited in crosscuts.
2) A handsaw can crosscut, with a plane & shooting board to clean up.
3) A bandsaw can resaw and cut curves. A tablesaw can't.
4) A tablesaw can cut dados and rabbets. A bandsaw can't.
5) But a moving fillister plane can cut rabbets faster (in my experience) than a bandsaw, and a plow plane can cut most dados. 
6) If I need to do vast numbers of dados, a router with a jig can do them faster than either the table saw or the plow plane.

So the two big drawbacks of a bandsaw -- the lack of a dado stack, and the limitation on crosscuts -- can both be easily compensated for with hand tools. If you mostly want to use handtools, use the bandsaw to reduce the drudgery of ripping and curves, and use hand tools for everything else.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Congrats eric22 on picking a saw that will fit your needs! :thumbsup: I look forward to seeing some pics of it when it arrives. 

I'd agree that band saws are intrinsically safer tools than table saws, but both can be dangerous. There are safety _features on some saws that help prevent injury, but safe practices equally important. Personal protective equipment to keep your eyes and lungs safe, featherboards, bush blocks and devices, sturdy fences, sharp blades, the correct blade for cut/material, etc. all promote safety on any saw. Enjoy your new saw and be safe!_


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