# Botched job-stained pine



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Spent many hours installing our unfinished pine windows and recently decided to get oak hardwood floors put in. We decided to have our floor guy stain our 2 pine windows as well as the floors. Well, the floors look great, the windows look horrible! I expressed my concerns, he is meeting me at my house in a few hours. There is already a water based poly on the stained windows as well. I asked him, did you use a prestain and he said sort of, we used water to open the grain, my jaw dropped. I said with pine, you need to use a prestain to get it even and that you want to close the grain with pine, NOT OPEN IT. I need to figure out how to get out of this jam, not even sure a sanding will do since he opened the grain even more now. He tried telling me that is how pine is, and I told him I have seen pine stained and it looks nothing like this. He even said that he would show me pine stained with prestain over it. I am fuming over here, don't know what to do. Here are the pictures, there is no moulding on right now.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

*pics*

pics


----------



## Larrylii (May 28, 2012)

Pine is generally blotchy when stained unless it is pretreated and even then can still be blotchy. The option now would be to replace or remove and strip it. Good thing pine isn't that expensive. I know this isn't what you want to hear, just being honest.


----------



## Rick C. (Dec 17, 2008)

The pine should be yellow or ponderosa pine. I've stained and finished a lot of these and never used a prestain, I also never use water base stain or poly on it. Water raises the grain, and if not sanded before staining this is what happens. You may have to sand it down past the top coat and bleach the wood to lighten the color, sand and restain. Or sand off the topcoat and use a darker stain. Some one else may have other ideas, but it ain't gonna be easy. Good luck.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Pine is expensive when it is on 3500 dollar windows, there is no replacing the wood itself. Rick, the pine was pretty white. Anywho, as far as sanding/bleaching that is what I am thinking, just nervous, because they opened the grain only god knows how deep this stain goes, not sure what the outcome would be with sanding and trying to bleach. The other problem is that there are so many pieces of wood that aren't flat, not sure what tools you can even use to get in those areas if I want to get nitpicky about it. Maybe I can just do the flat surfaces which seemed to be the real problem areas, but even then what to do, prestain or not? That might not match the rest of the wood then. Argggh!!


----------



## Jarrett 824 (Nov 9, 2012)

I agree with using a pre stain conditioner on pine. It makes a huge difference. I had this problem with a maple ledge in a basement. I ended up using some gel stain of the same color , with a brush. I applied the stain, stepped back, checked for splotches, and evened. I didn't wipe it off, just spread it evenly to get an acceptable look. It ended up looking pretty good.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Since it has the water based poly on it, it will take refinishing to fix it now. They could have thinned down their water based poly and used that for a wood conditioner but not water. The fact that they continued to stain the windows when it was going badly doesn't say much for their finishing skills. I think if you can get any refund out of them I would get someone else to fix the problem.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Steve, exactly what my father said. He couldn't believe that they continued when they knew it wasn't going right. I just can't believe this has happened. They did my mom's floors, and now my floors and they do look really good. However, they obviously do not know how to finish pine. I knew I should of researched and had my dad help me, sometimes it just pays to do it yourself I guess. Is there any kind of fine sanding tools to get into the dips and valleys of the wood? I may just have to spend the countless hours doing this myself, I don't think I should trust them to do the sanding, obviously they will not be anal like I am and who knows what the outcome would be.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

swappedsr said:


> Steve, exactly what my father said. He couldn't believe that they continued when they knew it wasn't going right. I just can't believe this has happened. They did my mom's floors, and now my floors and they do look really good. However, they obviously do not know how to finish pine and probably because oak is much easier to finish. I knew I should of researched and had my dad help me, sometimes it just pays to do it yourself I guess. Is there any kind of fine sanding tools to get into the dips and valleys of the wood? I may just have to spend the countless hours doing this myself, I don't think I should trust them to do the sanding, obviously they will not be anal like I am and who knows what the outcome would be.


 Those guys are probably just floor finishers and perhaps they have never stained anything but oak. This may be a new experience for them. 

Since you have a new floor under the windows I would let it go until after the holidays. The floor finish will need to cure. The windows need to be chemically stripped to get the poly and much of the stain off. Temperature is going to be your problem. You need a lot of ventilation to work removers and the remover needs 70 degrees or more. If it were me I would mask off the floor and wall with polyethylene plastic and then cover the plastic with several layers of newspaper or cardboard. Then I would strip the windows with a kleen strip paint and varnish remover. It's a thick paste remover that clings pretty good to vertical surfaces but some drips. This is why I put several layers of newspaper down to absorb it because it can soak through the plastic. It shouldn't take more than about ten minutes to loosen a fresh finish off. Once loosened scrape as much as you can off with a putty knife and rinse the residue off with lacquer thinner. Let dry overnight and the wood should be ready to sand. I don't know of any special tools to help you sand. I normally just fold a piece of sandpaper over and hand sand anything I can't do with an electric sander. Some of those really black spots you need a random orbital sander. While working on all of this make up some samples of the pine wood and finish it just like the windows were done to practice on. Use the stripper on them just the same as the window and sand it the same. Then use a wood conditioner on one of the samples and stain it and see what it looks like. If it's too light you may need to thin the conditioner some or darken the stain. When you get a sample that works for you then you finish the window the same way. This is something your painter should have already done instead of practicing on your windows. 

In the pictures I can only see how the window color relates to the paneling color. I assume you are trying to match the paneling so I think the stain you are using will be about right if wood conditioner is used. A wood conditioner is a sealer and it makes wood stain lighter than it would otherwise.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah, these are just floor guys, but my assumption was that they dealt with pine, my mistake. Their mistake for not stopping.

Thanks for the info Steve, the paneling is garbage, we are actually going to try to paint it first and if it doesn't look good, just remove it. The stain is really blotchy, not that it doesn't match the paneling. So Steve do you think I can also just sand without using chemicals? I have a pregnant wife at home so that might be out of the question, at least for now. Obviously that stripper would be the easiest way to go I am assuming though. And I know the sealer will make it lighter, but it should make it much more uniform like it should be, correct?


----------



## Rick C. (Dec 17, 2008)

Never bring a stripper in the house when you have a pregnant wife:lol:.
Really, I would not use stripper with the wife there. There may be a safe one out there, but I haven't heard of it. Could she stay with a relative for a weekend? That should give you enough time.
Congrats on the expected baby!


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yea I have to agree with Rick C. The chemicals in paint and varnish remover are extremely unhealthy. When I had a furniture refinishing shop I had to get a fresh air supplied respirator for my workers to strip furniture. This is why I said you needed a lot of ventilation to strip the windows with chemicals. Anyway you can sand the finish and stain off, it will just take more elbow grease and sandpaper. If you would use a stearated sandpaper it would help. The poly won't gum up on the stearated paper as bad.

If you sand it all back to bare wood then a wood conditioner should be used. It will make the stain go on a lot more uniform because the soft parts of the wood will soak up more of the conditioner and seal it making the surface more uniform. If the color isn't dark enough then you may need to use a darker stain to use with the conditioner. If you're using a stain other than Minwax you can add a universal tinting color to the stain to darken it. A easier fix may be to just get a darker stain in the same line and intermix it. This can be done with Minwax also. The only way to alter Minwax stain is to intermix it with another color of Minwax stain or add a aniline dye to it. It's common for some wood to stain darker than others. What I do is mix an aniline dye the same color as the oil stain and spray the lighter wood with the dye shading it. It's a ink so laying the color over the surface won't interfere with the adhesion of the finish you apply over it. 

You could practice the new finish on the windows but I think you painter has taught you that lesson. Make a lot of samples because with pine one board may work fine and another could go very badly.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Thank you guys very much, this is why I love the internet. When you don't know something you are able to find the experts that do. :thumbsup:


----------



## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

swappedsr said:


> Thank you guys very much, this is why I love the internet. When you don't know something you are able to find the experts that do. :thumbsup:


most wood's blotch, i myself wouldn't use water to raise the grain, instead i use this blotch control that seal's and raise's the grain somewhat, than stain and it will not be blotchie, than the over coat's and than done, here is the link , you will have to remove all the finish and start over, i would get a striper and do that , sanding will take for ever and will not get the stain out of the grain, pine if it is pine is tight grain so it may come out good, good luck


----------



## Charles Neil (Oct 21, 2007)

hey before you go too far, if it has dried to the point you can light scuff it and it will powder, get some water base stain, a good one Like General Finish, and give it a try you might be surprised, a good WB dye is even better, if its already blotched and has a oil stain and finish over it, and its dry a good WB dye will bite in and offer some color, like a glaze, a alcohol dye will bite in more, you just might be able to salavge this. With out hiring , I mean, using strippers, :laughing:

Seriously, you may be surprised, a powdered dye unless alcohol is not going to do it, it needs to be a premixed, the chemistry is a bit different,


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

swappedsr said:


> Thank you guys very much, this is why I love the internet. When you don't know something you are able to find the experts that do. :thumbsup:


There is the possibility that's true. You also get all kinds of responses from guesswork. IMO, since there is a topcoat it's likely you won't get much coloring from stains or dyes as is. Yes, if you can get it back to bare wood, that would be a good starting place.

Using a stripper will remove a great percentage of the finish. There is a safe stripper you can use indoors. It's a waterbase gel, called *Citrastrip*. It smells like oranges. You may need a few applications. Sanding is another way, but it will be labor intensive, but might be necessary.

You could also use a gel stain, which can be applied and produce a uniform coloring. You might experiment with it. Test it on samples first. As with any chemicals, follow the product directions.









 







.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

DEL, I saw that guy's product before, I was thinking of getting it. I wish I would of researched more beforehand. So, I ended up talking to the flooring guy and he insisted that is how pine should come out. As me and my dad shook our heads, he said okay, I am going to have my guy come over on Saturday and strip one of the verticle pieces and put prestain and then stain. He said it will come out exactly the same way. So, I have pine in my garage that I am going to play with tonight, but I am going to test by sanding with medium grit and then fine grit, then prestain and stain and see how some samples come out. The truth is, just as Rick said, he should of sanded after raising the grain with water and he didn't, that is why it looks crappy. So when his guy comes, I will make sure he sands after opening the grain if that is what he is going to do. One other thing that we weren't quite sure of is that he used an oil based stain and water based poly, my dad and I weren't quite sure if that is an acceptable method of using an oil/water combo like that.

cabinetman: I understand there are a lot of answers on the internet, you just need to test the ones you find. I am the type that if I don't know how to do something, I find out how by researching and then testing it on my own. And to put it more correctly, I should of said the internet always puts me on the correct path  Also, a friend at work just sent me the citrastrip in an email saying that might work. I assume this will just take the poly off so the stain can be removed by sanding?

I am sure my wife won't mind the stripper as long it doesn't leave an odor


----------



## Charles Neil (Oct 21, 2007)

Cabinet man, I respectfully disagee, Just helped a young lady on here, who had cherry sealed with oil, we got it colored nicely

if its dry ,a Alcohol dye will color it, 

try it !!!!! 

I am looking at 3 pieces of cherry , I actually used a box store varnish, and let dry for a Blotch control with lacquer and alcohol dyes, looks great,


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

swappedsr said:


> cabinetman: I understand there are a lot of answers on the internet, you just need to test the ones you find. I am the type that if I don't know how to do something, I find out how by researching and then testing it on my own. And to put it more correctly, I should of said the internet always puts me on the correct path  Also, a friend at work just sent me the citrastrip in an email saying that might work. I assume this will just take the poly off so the stain can be removed by sanding?
> 
> I am sure my wife won't mind the stripper as long it doesn't leave an odor


Citrastrip is safe to use indoors, but it's still stripper, and you should use gloves and face protection. It has a pleasant odor, and will remove what it can get at. Pick up a gel stain, as it can be applied over almost any surface. It just may be your easiest fix. Try it on a sample.










 







.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Charles Neil said:


> if its dry ,a Alcohol dye will color it,
> 
> try it !!!!!


I have.








 







.


----------



## Charles Neil (Oct 21, 2007)

well im looking at it , and it looks great,, I used, Formbys tung oil ( not tung its a varnish), ( thinned 20 % with Naphtha), or General finishes Salad bowl finish, ( its a varnish as well) , no blotch , great color, will get some photos, in a few days, these are for another project, I am doing, 

again, using a alcohol dye, 

will get the photos, saves alot of typing 

it has to be dry


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

So use the stripper, sand and try gel stain? What grits should I use after the stripper?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

swappedsr said:


> So use the stripper, sand and try gel stain? What grits should I use after the stripper?


I would use 180x. With the gel stain, you don't have to remove all of the previous finish. It works something like a paint. Before you strip, try the gel stain on a sample and see how it works. You may not have to strip.









 







.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

swappedsr said:


> So use the stripper, sand and try gel stain? What grits should I use after the stripper?


 As bad as those blotchy spots are you're probably going to have to start sanding with 80x paper. When you get close to getting the really dark blotches out I would change to 100x. Then 180x and finally 220 grit. Just don't go to 180x until you get the color evened out. The 180x and 220x are to get rid of the sanding marks from the coarser paper. You might also wet the wood with water between sandpaper changes. This will raise the grain and make your sanding more effective and easier. 

I don't think you would be happy with the appearance of gel stain. It is equivalent to thinning down some brown enamel paint and covering up the wood. It is most commonly used for fiberglass doors that have a woodgrain texture in it to make plastic look something like wood. There is also talk about using an aniline dye. It's a fine product that can be used to even out the color but you have too many really dark blotchy spots that are very dark. Unless you want all the woodwork to match the dark blotches you wouldn't be happy using that. It's very transparent and doesn't give the wood such a pasty look as gel stain does. In addition I don't think anyone other than an experienced finish could shade in the windows you have. Doing it yourself I think the only option you have is to take the finish and stain off and finish it back in a more conventional way.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> As bad as those blotchy spots are you're probably going to have to start sanding with 80x paper. When you get close to getting the really dark blotches out I would change to 100x. Then 180x and finally 220 grit. Just don't go to 180x until you get the color evened out. The 180x and 220x are to get rid of the sanding marks from the coarser paper. You might also wet the wood with water between sandpaper changes. This will raise the grain and make your sanding more effective and easier.
> 
> I don't think you would be happy with the appearance of gel stain. It is equivalent to thinning down some brown enamel paint and covering up the wood. It is most commonly used for fiberglass doors that have a woodgrain texture in it to make plastic look something like wood. There is also talk about using an aniline dye. It's a fine product that can be used to even out the color but you have too many really dark blotchy spots that are very dark. Unless you want all the woodwork to match the dark blotches you wouldn't be happy using that. It's very transparent and doesn't give the wood such a pasty look as gel stain does. In addition I don't think anyone other than an experienced finish could shade in the windows you have. Doing it yourself I think the only option you have is to take the finish and stain off and finish it back in a more conventional way.


Sanding with 80x is way to coarse. It would be to his benefit to try the suggestions, rather than being told he won't like this or that. 









 







.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Sanding with 80x is way to coarse. It would be to his benefit to try the suggestions, rather than being told he won't like this or that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In this situation 80x is not too coarse. A more agressive approach is needed to get those spots deeply soaked with stain. If you have any experience with finishing you should know that. After all I didn't say sand with 80x and then stain it. 80x is just a start. As far as suggestions I look at the pictures on post 2 every time I open this thread. A person would have to nearly cover the wood with a gel stain to even up the color with a gel stain. I don't thing the OP had painting the windows in mind when they choose stain.


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Since we're just talking about pine here how about a paint tinted a nice brown color to match everything. No stripping required the paint will cover the blotch all you need to do is scuff sand and paint.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

I first need to prove this flooring guy wrong before tomorrow to show him that pine can be stained the right way, I just need to pick up some duraseal (nutmeg) not easy to come by but think I found a flooring company that sells it. So, I am going to sand one of the vertical pieces, the wood already seems very smooth btw, I will try with the 100 grit first, 180, 220 and see how much work it is to get out the stain without using stripper. Then I will put the prestain on, let it sit for 5 to 15 minutes like it says, wipe off the excess prestain and then try to stain. If this works, I can always just do a little bit everyday for a few weeks if necessary, just need to get it done before the baby arrives in March. This can't be as bad as the previous owner of my house painting my deck with a very hard paint. It took me weeks but I stripped every last board with stripper, drum sander and whole lot of elbow grease hand sanding. I should show you pics of that job, it was an insane amount of work, but looked good afterword with the clear cabot stain. I will post before and after pictures of the vertical piece on the window with a way better camera. I only used a camera phone last time.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When you make up your samples for the flooring people I would finish one side exactly like they did it and the other side the correct way. That way they can't argue that it was just a good board.


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

I did that on a test piece, now I am going to do it on one of the verticle pieces  Do you think I could get away with 100 grit then 150 then conditioner and stain or should I go to 220 grit after the 150?


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Man, been going at it, had to go to 80 grit, been at it for about an hour. 100 grit just wasn't doing anything. I am wondering if I should go lower than 80


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The finer you sand the wood the better chance the wood wouldn't go blotchy again. Since it is already blotchy I believe I would go to 220 grit. 

As far as sanding coarser than 80x you can do it but you will have to do a lot of extra sanding with 80x paper after you get the blotch out. For pine 80x is pretty coarse and I'm not sure you would save any work going to a coarser paper. With 60x or 40x sandpaper will make a lot of heavy scratches that you would need to do a lot of additional sanding to get the scratches out. Any scratches left on the wood will grab the stain and make blotches of their own. If you are using a electric sander it is especially bad because it makes scratches in a circular pattern across the wood. It's what we call swirl marks. Also with coarser paper you run the risk of deforming the shape of the woodwork. 

The problem you are having with the sanding is why initially I suggested using chemicals. A remover would have taken some of the color out of wood. You might try some citristrip cabinetman suggested. I haven't used it so I can't say whether it would help or not cutting the stain.


----------



## jodasm (Oct 25, 2012)

I think I'd go with the stripper get the poly off of it then u can sand to a even tone not with 80 once that poly is removed I think that would do more shaping then sanding try 120 150 180 maybe 220 up to u remember on the courser grits u r just getting it to an even tone sand with the finer grits, then try and work ur way up to the color u want thin the stain out a bit, with conditioner


----------



## jodasm (Oct 25, 2012)

Not thin with conditioner use conditioner


----------



## jodasm (Oct 25, 2012)

If u have used it may be easier to use a spray stain at this point so it's even and u can tone it. But if u have not used it before then I would not


----------



## jodasm (Oct 25, 2012)

So what did u do, how did it turn out


----------



## swappedsr (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry guys I am late on this. Here is the picture, big difference. I sanded to 150 grit, then stained, I didn't put a top coat on yet. Here is the pic nonetheless. So who did the better job, I did the verticle piece on the left and he did the right? Me or the professional lol?


----------



## Rick C. (Dec 17, 2008)

Not even close, :thumbsup: kudos. Now you have to decide whether you want them to do it, or do it yourself.


----------

