# 1st chisel sharpening with new guide not going well.



## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

I don’t know if I’m doing this right or what. I decided to use a chisel that I bought 40 years ago as my first sharpening with my General Tools Sharpening guide. I have tried sharpening the chisel many times over the years with a grinding wheel and I’ve probably screwed it up, but I’ve been working on this for hours using 100 grit sand paper and the General Sharpening guide without much success. 










I have a bevel on the top side from a mistake many years ago and I don’t know if I’m ever going to remove enough metal to get rid of the bevel on back.










Is this as a fast as it goes? I have 7 more chisels to go and I don’t have time for this.


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## pwalter5110 (Oct 31, 2011)

Maybe step down to 60 grit? You can always work your way up


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

The damage that these chisels has sustained is not easily remedied unless you want to use a grinding wheel to correct the original bevel. Sharpening by hand, using a jig is never a quick process if you are trying to correct damage done by sharpening incorrectly. Keep at it. Once you get the damage corrected, touch ups on the bevels and micro bevels only takes a minute.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Thanks pwalter5110 & Kenbo for replying, 

I just noticed that the 100 grit sandpaper I was using is marked for Drywall. I don’t know if that makes a difference or not, but I’m looking for some 60 grit wet/dry that I just bought. I have lots of dry wood type sand paper and I was advised to only use wet & dry.

I’m afraid to use the grinding wheel because that’s what got me here in the first place. I’m thinking of cutting a 25 deg angle on a piece of 2x4 and using my HF 6” belt sander. I’m just not sure what the sawdust from the 2x4 will do to my chisel sharpening.


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

Using a grinding wheel works but you would need a jig to keep it square. The other problem with using a grinding wheel is you can end up with a hollow grind. When using the sand paper, just make sure that your paper is attached to a flat surface. Otherwise, any imperfections in the surface will be transferred to your chisel. Don't try to look for a quick and easy way. Look for the proper way and then touch ups are a breeze. Water stones work well too.
Here's a video I made on sharpening with water stones. It may not help you with your current dilemma, but it might give you some ideas of where to take your sharpening in the future.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Thanks Kenbo, great video!

Well I finally found my sand paper in the trash can, but there wasn’t any 60 grit. I’ll have to pick some up tomorrow.

I’ve been looking at my grinder and I definitely have to make something to do chisels, because the little holder is not strong enough to hold a jig.










I also have another wet stone, but I’ve never been able to get it to work right.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

I decided to pull out my DMT Diamond Extra Course stone and it didn’t start out well then I figured out that I needed to wash the stone every once in a while. I also had a tough time keeping it flat on the stone and may have to come up with a solution for that.










OK I thought I was doing so well until I switched stones to Fine. I found out that it really needs cleaned much more often because it clogs up and starts hopping on the stone.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

I’m giving up on the General Tool No.809 sharpening jig and I'm looking for a new jig possibly like this one except with wheel on each side instead of the center. At least this has a better way of keeping the chisel square.









The General sharpening jig has no way of keeping the work from rocking and damaging the sides. I like how I can get full strokes on my 6” Diamond stones without the jig falling off the stone, but I’m not sure if it worth it without wheels on the front to keep it from tipping side to side. Maybe I can incorporate some into the design.


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## acowboy (Nov 20, 2013)

I have two of those style jigs, from two different makers, and really not happy with them.
Been really looking at this one.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072,43078,51868&p=51868
Don't know if this will help you, hope it will help me...


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## rb61 (Nov 25, 2013)

*Find an experienced person close to you*

Use this forum and possibly other forums to locate someone close to you that would look forward to helping you.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

acowboy said:


> I have two of those style jigs, from two different makers, and really not happy with them.
> Been really looking at this one.
> http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072,43078,51868&p=51868
> Don't know if this will help you, hope it will help me...


Ya I saw those, but the $70 is almost half way to buying a Work Sharp WS3000.

Anyway I'm back at it again with the fine stone and it looks better although my surface has changed. I don't know if the chisel has moved or the rear height leg adjustment has changed. I'm so close now that I'm afraid to change anything and I'm not sure if I want to go to the next step to extra fine.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

So my chisel looks sharper than it has ever been, but it still can’t cut a piece of paper. I haven’t tried the extra fine stone because I’m afraid of screwing it up again. I might try it again later.:shifty:

Anyway I’ve spent about 7 - 8 hours over 2 days sharpening it plus $160 for the cost of a Honing guide and 4 sizes of DMT Diamond stones. I also spent $20 on wet & dry sandpaper which I haven’t used yet. 

I just don’t know what the problem is but I think I may have defective diamond stones because the extra course stone stopped cutting after about an hour and I suspect that the fine stone is not completely flat because the surface is not completely covered.

I tried flattening the back of a 1 ½” chisel on the extra course and it did nothing so I tried it on my HF 6” belt sander and wow did that ever remove some metal. The only problem was that it almost took my arm off and left a couple of gouges along the edge.

Well I’m now looking to buy a Work Sharp WS3000 and give up on this DMT crap. :laughing:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If you use an electric wheel grinder/sharpener be sure to not let your chisel or blade get hot, too hot and it will change color, if it gets to that point you ruined the edge. When I sharpen I will keep touching the blade or chisel to make sure it isn't so hot I can't touch it.

Once you have your chisel or blade sharp, all you will need to do is hone it, unless you nick it or damage the edge.

Hold your chisel or blade up so light will shine on the edge, if the edge shines anywhere that spot is dull.

From my experience, you will get a much better edge from the wet/dry sand paper than a diamond, you want the sanded part to be almost mirror shiney. Let the edge rest on your thumb nail at a sharp angle, it it slides off it isn't sharp, if it sticks it is sharp.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

jiju1943 said:


> If you use an electric wheel grinder/sharpener be sure to not let your chisel or blade get hot, too hot and it will change color, if it gets to that point you ruined the edge. When I sharpen I will keep touching the blade or chisel to make sure it isn't so hot I can't touch it.
> 
> Once you have your chisel or blade sharp, all you will need to do is hone it, unless you nick it or damage the edge.
> 
> ...


Thanks BigJim, You know over heating just might have been the problem because when I first started using a grinder 20 years ago I did heat them up and they were smoking. I remember some were blue when I was done.

Well I still have the wet&dry sand paper, maybe I'll give that a try. :smile:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Blue is cooked. Toast. Need to gently grind that all out and start over.

Right at the very beginning, something I do that might work for you:
Basically, you can't see what's going on as the surface to be worked on is down.
Paint the bevel with waterproof black felt marker. Work that surface.
Now when you turn it over, there's absolutley no doubt where the metal is coming off.

When I build up a crooked knife from a hook knife that a farrier would use, the first step is to change the bevel along the entire sweep (freehand) from 30 degrees to 12 degrees. Black marker is a relaxing way to see the progress.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Robson Valley said:


> Blue is cooked. Toast. Need to gently grind that all out and start over.
> 
> Right at the very beginning, something I do that might work for you:
> Basically, you can't see what's going on as the surface to be worked on is down.
> ...


On my grinder, I did something some may not agree with, I took the guards off and turned the bench grinder around where the off and on switch is on the back side not the front. This way the wheels are spinning upwards, not downward and you can see the edge of what you are sharpening, I also keep a pan of water close so I can cool the blade if it gets a little too warm.

If you do turn the grinder around, with a magic marker draw on the top of the grinder, where it can be seen, that the wheels are running backwards so no one will use it wrong and get hurt.


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## Joeb41 (Jun 23, 2012)

Sleeper, That Lee Valley jig is the best. If you are in this for the long run just buy it you won't regret it. I have used many methods in my 50 + years of woodworking and my chisels and plane irons have never been sharper.


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## lilman (Nov 22, 2012)

Sleeper, I bought a guide identical to the second one you posted from woodcraft I believe and it worked great for me. I recently tried my hand at sharpening for the first time and learned creating that initial bevel is a pain. Once that was achieved, the process went smoothly.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

lilman said:


> Sleeper, I bought a guide identical to the second one you posted from woodcraft I believe and it worked great for me. I recently tried my hand at sharpening for the first time and learned creating that initial bevel is a pain. Once that was achieved, the process went smoothly.


I may have to Buy that at least for the narrow chisels. I just did my 1/4" from the same Craftsman set as the first chisel. I thought it was going to be a piece of cake because there wasn't as much metal to take off and I had a lot of trouble keeping it flat on the stone. I finally gave up on holding the chisel down on the stone and just held the wheels while pushing it around. I just finished it and it is realy shinny, but when I tried to cut paper it would not cut at all, so I guess I have more work to do on it.

I still have the 1/2" & 3/4" to do from that same set, but the 3/4" is shot and I may have to replace it. To remove the "blue" would mean I have to take off way to much metal.

I also have a fairly new Stanley set that's never been sharpened and I hope I'll have an easier time of it.

I mentioned earlier that I started a Stanley 1 1/2" and had to quit because I wasn't getting anywhere. That is actually my favorite because I bought that in '72 while working as a framing carpenter and I have a lot of good memories associated with it. I'm going to wait until I buy some 60 Grit Paper to start it.:smile:


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 23, 2010)

I think you are WAY over doing this. The object is to bring two surfaces together. You could use water stones, oil stones, sandpaper, etc. I would encourage not to buy anymore fancy devices, your grinder will work just fine. You don't need a jig for the grinder, use the holder on the grinder as is. Next use whatever holding jig you have and put on a secondary bevel. This process works well for inexpensive chisels and should take about 5-10 minutes to do. After you become better at it you may want to buy better chisels and at that point you no longer want to turn to the grinder and stay with either a holding jig or free-hand sharpening.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*yeah, keep it simple*

This video is basically how I sharpen mine...when the edge is gone and really nicked up.... which never happens in real life. Keep the tip cooled in a can of water close by. Get to know how much to press down to get the back flat without overheating it. Then I hone them on the diamond stones. This guy is pretty aggressive, way more that I would be, but he gets the job done. Kinda crude but effective.






How to hand sharpen:


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

I’ve been through all this before and I have a drawer full of oil stones. The reason I bought the Diamond stones was because I would always have a flat true surface. The oil stones just get deformed with each try and I’m just not interested with stones that fall apart.

My grinder has the tool rest fastened to the sheet metal wheel cover and bends very easily. It’s always been a problem. I’m going to wield up a new stronger tool rest to replace the one on the grinder, but I’ve been trying to sharpen chisels for years and I even bought a couple of sets of “threw away” sets of chisels to practice on. I just like the idea of having a flat surface and I’ve given up on the bench grinder for sharpening chisels 20 years ago. The last few years and I’ve been just buying new sets of chisels when they don’t cut anymore.:shifty:


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> This video is basically how I sharpen mine...when the edge is gone and really nicked up.... which never happens in real life. Keep the tip cooled in a can of water close by. Get to know how much to press down to get the back flat without overheating it. ...


 Yes I experienced that today :laughing:

Actually if I don't get this right, I think I'll start buying the cheapest chisels I can buy and sharpen them just like that.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

If the chisel looks sharp to you and yet you can't cut paper with it I wonder if you've actually got the two edges to meet as Keith mentioned. 

The fact that you had a bevel on the back and a messed up primary bevel makes me think that you aren't quite there yet. When you sharpen the bevel, can you feel a bur on the back of the chisel? When two edges meet and you sharpen one of them, a bur will form on the back of the side you are sharpening. If it doesn't, those two edges aren't quite together. A lot of times it will look very sharp, but if you look at the edge with magnification, they don't quite meet. 

When you do final honing on an edge, it can be next to impossible to feel the bur, but when you are establishing a bevel and using relatively course media, a bur should be very evident. If there is no bur, you will have to do more work on the bevel and/or the back to make the two edges meet. Once that occurs, start working through the finer grit media you are using.


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Like a couple other guys mentioned, this should be a simple operation. Don't over complicate it man. Watch this video, its like 20 mins long but totally worth it. I like Paul Sellers because he really breaks things down. Simple.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Jigs are fine, I have nothing against them at all. But then, you don't have to learn what's important in edge menagement. The result is, you may have no clue why the process worked well or not.
Learn freehand first. Then you can appreciate the power and the jigs.

KM: I agree but there's a learning curve which is very hard to do without some 0ne-on-one instruction.

sleeper: go ahead and replace it. Since you cooked the first one, you might as well learn how to do it right and shape that steel into something useful. I've done that = making one wood carving tool from another. Not rocket science, just steel (as a note added in proof, I am a retired botany/wood science prof with diddly squat understanding of steel. If I can do it, you can do it. $5 fine for whining).


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

BZawat said:


> Like a couple other guys mentioned, this should be a simple operation. Don't over complicate it man. Watch this video, its like 20 mins long but totally worth it. I like Paul Sellers because he really breaks things down. Simple.


Thank for the video I wish I would have seen that first. Well That is my next move to start with the sand paper.

This is the video that started me on this whole project. I bought everything that was shown from the General Sharpening Holder to the DMT Diamond Stones and even the Simple Green.:smile:


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

trc65 said:


> If the chisel looks sharp to you and yet you can't cut paper with it I wonder if you've actually got the two edges to meet as Keith mentioned. .


 That may be my problem.
I don’t know what to do with this 1/4" Chisel. I had so much trouble getting a complete flat surface on the sole that I don’t want to ruin it. What will happen if work on the back instead? I did flatten the back before starting on the cutting angle and I did remove a burr at the edge, but it’s still not sharp.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

If you got a bur on it, I'd start working up through the grits with it. I usually hone the bevel and then a few strokes on the back to remove the bur - then on to the next grit. Something that might help is to go ahead and use a marker as often as needed to reassure yourself you are honing the bevel evenly. 

The other thing I do is check that the chisel is square in the guide a couple of times while honing it. A while back I had a 1/4" chisel that was moving slightly in the guide while sharpening and I didn't notice it until I had messed it up.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

One other thought. I'm not familiar with the jig you are using to sharpen with, does it have something to definitively set the angle you are sharpening? And is it accurate and repeatable?

If not, you might consider making a set of angle guides/stop blocks similar to those in this link.

http://weekendwarriorwoodworking.com/sharpening-station-and-angle-guide-jig/

There are many examples of different ways to make a set of angle guides, this is just the first one I found.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

trc65 said:


> ...
> The other thing I do is check that the chisel is square in the guide a couple of times while honing it. A while back I had a 1/4" chisel that was moving slightly in the guide while sharpening and I didn't notice it until I had messed it up.


I was having trouble with that and I think I have to cut some spacers to square them up plus keep them from moving.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

*All Right I finally got it*

OK so I put away the diamond stones and pulled out some 500 grit wet & dry sandpaper and wow it sharpened it up like I've never seen before. :clap::clap::thumbup:
So now I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the DMT stones. I just can't believe the difference. I could almost hear the sandpaper cutting where all I could hear was squeaking with the DMT stones. So I guess someone stole the diamonds when I wasn't looking.:laughing: 

Anyway I cant wait to start the next one with the sandpaper from the very beginning to see how long it takes. I bought 2 sheets of 60 grit and I'm going to try them on my 1 1/2" Stanley tomorrow.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I have a leather strop which I load with polishing compound (jeweler rouge) on one side and tooth paste on the other, tooth paste is about 8,000 grit. I also bought a glass disk that is used on the WS3000, I think. 

I mounted it on a variable speed electric motor and have leather mounted to it. When I get lazy I load the leather and hone with that on a low speed, the tool never gets above a slight warm.


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## Kahlua (Dec 6, 2012)

Sleeper said:


> OK so I put away the diamond stones and pulled out some 500 grit wet & dry sandpaper and wow it sharpened it up like I've never seen before. :clap::clap::thumbup:
> So now I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the DMT stones. I just can't believe the difference. I could almost hear the sandpaper cutting where all I could hear was squeaking with the DMT stones. So I guess someone stole the diamonds when I wasn't looking.:laughing:
> 
> Anyway I cant wait to start the next one with the sandpaper from the very beginning to see how long it takes. I bought 2 sheets of 60 grit and I'm going to try them on my 1 1/2" Stanley tomorrow.


Don't you need to add a slurry to diamond stones?


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

jiju1943 said:


> I have a leather strop which I load with polishing compound (jeweler rouge) on one side and tooth paste on the other, tooth paste is about 8,000 grit. I also bought a glass disk that is used on the WS3000, I think.
> 
> I mounted it on a variable speed electric motor and have leather mounted to it. When I get lazy I load the leather and hone with that on a low speed, the tool never gets above a slight warm.


Thats pretty interesting about the glass disk. I have to keep that in mind, thanks


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Kahlua said:


> Don't you need to add a slurry to diamond stones?


I was using the Simple Green as was in the "AskWoodMan" Video above, but I've been thinking about that all night and that may have been part of the problem because it was drying and clogging it up. I had to constantly wash the stones in a bucket of water at my feet.

I may try the Windex or glass cleaner as in the Paul Sellers video. I was going to try the glass cleaner on the sandpaper, but all I had was with ammonia and I didn't know if the ammonia would breakdown the sandpaper.

Anyway I won a new Work Sharp WS3000 on eBay this morning for a $149 with free shipping so I may wait until I get it before doing any more chisels unless I get ripped off. :smile:


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

I use WD-40 with wet/dry paper and a piece of tempered plate glass. Works great.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

I was just looking at the bottle of simple green and realized that it was in concentrated form. I was mixing it 50/50 with water, but I think the mix was supposed to be after the original dilution so I think I may need to add 50% more water. :blush:


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

*Root of Problem solved!*

The problem is with the General 809 - Chisel/Plane Blade Sharpener itself. I just set up a new chisel in the holder and set the angle up perfect and found the blade was not square in the holder. Then I started experimenting with the height using the ¼” high stone and the square was again off, so I took the chisel out of the holder completely to check the holder. 

I set the holder down on a perfectly flat surface and found that the wheels are not on the same plane as the holder causing a wobble. The tool itself is warped and I don’t know how to compensate for it except by putting a steel rule under the high wheel. 

:thumbdown: So this tool is useless and I will have to write a negative review of this product so no one else has the same problem.


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## Kahlua (Dec 6, 2012)

Sleeper said:


> I was using the Simple Green as was in the "AskWoodMan" Video above, but I've been thinking about that all night and that may have been part of the problem because it was drying and clogging it up. I had to constantly wash the stones in a bucket of water at my feet.
> 
> I may try the Windex or glass cleaner as in the Paul Sellers video. I was going to try the glass cleaner on the sandpaper, but all I had was with ammonia and I didn't know if the ammonia would breakdown the sandpaper.
> 
> Anyway I won a new Work Sharp WS3000 on eBay this morning for a $149 with free shipping so I may wait until I get it before doing any more chisels unless I get ripped off. :smile:


A slurry stone rubbed on the sharpening/polishing stone leaves a fine material, which is what actually does the cutting/polishing. Think of it like a cutting compound. I'm not sure if diamond stones require them, but I know many stones do require them to be rubbed with a slurry stone before use, so you actually have an abrasive to cut the blade.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Kahlua said:


> A slurry stone rubbed on the sharpening/polishing stone leaves a fine material, which is what actually does the cutting/polishing. Think of it like a cutting compound. I'm not sure if diamond stones require them, but I know many stones do require them to be rubbed with a slurry stone before use, so you actually have an abrasive to cut the blade.


 Thanks for the info, but of all the DMT Diamond Stone Videos they have not used anything like that. 

Here is a video from the manufacture and I believe they can be used dry. I have the double sided with two different grits and they show the Whetstone™ in this video. There is another video with my stones, but I don’t have time to find it right now.





Ok I just found one video of the ones I have shown below.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The real deal is that I need to make an edge which is as nearly toothless as it needs to be for the task. I refer you to the 2-page picture spread in Leonard Lee's The Complete Guide To Sharpening, p32/33. Photomicrographs, all 15 to the same scale. The first 5 chapters deal with everything from metallurgy to sharpening equipment. Lots of photomicrographs which support the facts. Good read.

My waterstones consist of abrasive particles, held together with an adhesive of some sort. 
The function of the liquid is to act as the vehicle to get rid of smashed abrasive particles and metal fragments.. . . whatever you think you need to use.

Slurry just plugs up the cutting surface like mud in the tread of a tire. I don't want that at all. Flushed occassionally with a squirt from a water bottle, I get clear, clean grit for edge management. As I move along, I can select a finer grit for the next step. W&D sandpapers, I just use them dry.

In an exploration of the versatility of crooked knives for carving, I have hafted 10 blades in the past couple of years. Others, I have had for a long time.
1. Chalked-up chainsaw file to make certain that the bevel is 12 degrees. Toothy edge.
2. 800 grit 3M W&D paper, wrapped around a 3/4" piece of Al. tubing. Most toothy gone as I watch with a 10X loupe magnifier to check on progress.
3. Hone on a strop made from another piece of tubing, a file card wrapped around that and scrubbed with chrome green.

The result is a smooth, easy, scratch-free cut in soft western red cedar or nice straight-grained birch. That's all I wanted.


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