# Think I may have messed up a pocket hole joint. How to fix?



## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

This is my project: http://ana-white.com/2012/07/plans/camp-loft-bed-stair-junior-height

I am building the stair and deck part. 

I am using a Kreg Jig for most joints. I made a mistake here, and because i'm new at this, I tried to fix it and I think I made it worse. Here is my problem; I made the pocket hole. When I went to attach the board with the PH, the screw was too long and it popped through the board I was attaching the PH board to. I removed that screw ( I was using 2-1/2 screws here) I attempted to make that joint using a 1-1/2 screw (what I really need is a 2 in screw). Anyway, I think the joint is really loose now. Is this making any sense? 

Is there some way to fix that? Is it possible that it will fix itself when I get 2 in screws? My other option is to cut a new piece of wood, but I would like to avoid that if possible. Any ideas? Thanks!


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Remove the part with the PH holes in it. Shape and glue a peg into the corresponding hole. You can use a chopstick or shape the peg from any piece of solid wood.

After the glue sets trim the peg flush and reassemble.

Let us know how you do.

Jeff


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

It's probably too late for you, but I wouldn't use pocket screws on a project like that, especially with kids playing in and around it. I would go to the trouble to use traditional joinery methods. 











 







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## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

I hope thiis is in the right. Sspot. I'm trying to replyfrom my phone,and i'm not sure where thhis message is going to go. Also, please forgive my. Typos. My phone has been dropped so many times, it almost doesn't function. Anyway...Jeff, I have plugs that came with the kreg jig. I can just glue thhose into to hole, and they will be almoost good as new? Cabinetman, wwhy would you not use pocket holes? I thought the PH joints were supposeed to be sstrong? Also,ii'm glueing all my permanent joints. Sorry about the weird typos.


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## 65BAJA (May 27, 2012)

nothing to add


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

TCM said:


> I hope thiis is in the right. Sspot. I'm trying to replyfrom my phone,and i'm not sure where thhis message is going to go. Also, please forgive my. Typos. My phone has been dropped so many times, it almost doesn't function. Anyway...Jeff, I have plugs that came with the kreg jig. I can just glue thhose into to hole, and they will be almoost good as new? Cabinetman, wwhy would you not use pocket holes? I thought the PH joints were supposeed to be sstrong? Also,ii'm glueing all my permanent joints. Sorry about the weird typos.



TCM, 

The plugs you have are meant to be used in order to hide the pocket hole for a more finished look.

As I understand your question you need to plug the hole in the adjoining workpiece.

I think Cabbie doesn't like pocket holes as he favors more traditional joinery methods.

I understand his preference as traditional joinery tends to be stronger and its becoming a lost art.

Pocket hole joinery has its place in woodworking but until I learn and use traditional joinery I won't consider myself a full fledged woodworker.

However, at this point in your project you're pretty much committed to PHs.

Jeff

Edit: Can you post photos of the workpieces?


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## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

What I ended up doing was just cutting two new pieces. Then I went to Lowes and bought the right size screws. Then my husband came home and we decided that we couldn't have me getting sawdust all over his fancy car and motorcycle, so I had to clean the shed, then move all my stuff out there. 

Then me and the kids promptly got sick. Real sick. I have been making an effort to get my butt of the couch for the last few days, but quite frankly, that's just too much work. 

Hopefully within the next day or two I can get back out there. I would like to get the loft bed i'm making done. The problem is, what probably takes hours for some of you to do, takes me days. I'm all for fast an easy. If I can get similar results from easy PHs, i'm going to take that route. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this, so please don't take it that way, but i'm just trying to make loft beds, i'm not looking for a title. If there is a real problem with the pocket holes, i'm certainly willing to listen. I plan on putting my kids in the loft beds after all. However, if it's just a matter of form, then I have to take the easier option.


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

TCM,

You don't sound like a jerk at all. I hope I didn't offend you with anything I said. 

I use pocket holes for some projects myself. I want to learn traditional joinery simply because it interests me.

And I often look at the work of others on this forum and these guys who whip out amazing work in no time at all irritate me and inspire me at the same time. 

Jeff

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Mark Twain


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

TCM,

I'm sorry but I agree with Cabbie (see below) and maybe I should keep my mouth shut but like you yourself said the kids safety comes first.

I strongly recommend that after you complete your pocket hole construction you reinforce the connections somehow.

Post some photos so we can make recommendations.



cabinetman said:


> It's probably too late for you, but I wouldn't use pocket screws on a project like that, especially with kids playing in and around it. I would go to the trouble to use traditional joinery methods.
> 
> .


"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Mark Twain


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

I use PH joints all the time and love them; however, I would agree with not using them on this project. Kids will climb and play on their bed which will cause the joints to go through different twisting and bending pressure that they would not undergo on a different project. You will probably find that a tight joint will be quite loose after a year or two if you use PH joints. 

If you want to continue with the PH joints, either glue and fill the holes with new wood or cut a new board. Those are about your only two options. If the joint is loose now, it will only get worse with time.

Sent from my iPad using Wood Forum


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jharris2 said:


> TCM,
> 
> I'm sorry but I agree with Cabbie (see below) and maybe I should keep my mouth shut but like you yourself said the kids safety comes first.
> 
> I strongly recommend that after you complete your pocket hole construction you reinforce the connections somehow.



I would agree that PH joinery is seemingly quick and easy. But, there is still the set up of the jig, and the documented problems some members have posted about using them. 

This is a woodworking forum, and there should be PITA guys like me that advocate traditional woodworking methods. I may be in the minority, and that's OK. 

Planning for joinery can be simple and become a habit in the process. On a rough sketch of the project, each joint can be circled and then a determination can be made for the best method to use. Whatever the choice is, that joint can compliment or be a fault for other joints. So, in evaluating a total project, while a basically butt joint that's screwed together may feel adequate, it's still the weakest of all joints.

I find that the planning and creating the joints the fun part, especially when doing the dry fitting. It's like a puzzle that comes together.









 







.


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> This is a woodworking forum, and . . . guys like me that advocate traditional woodworking methods. I may be in the minority, and that's OK. . . .
> 
> I find that the planning and creating the joints the fun part, especially when doing the dry fitting. It's like a puzzle that comes together.
> 
> .


I think that is the point, it is "fun;" however, at times things need to be quick and practical, especially when building necessary items for the kids. I have 8 of my own and now my sister-in-law moved into my home with her 3 kids. At times I have got to use simple, easy, and quick to get things done and PH help. They save so much time. The wood still needs to be square or the PH will pull the project to one side and make the project look worse than Walmart furniture. There is still skill that is needed when using PH. 

Aside from the quick and easy, I too would advocate for more traditional woodworking for fine furniture. The table I'm making for my wife has now taken me a year and is about half finished using traditional methods but that is because all of the other small quick projects take up all my time. You know small projects like 2,400 sqft of laminate flooring, drywall, trim, molding, new kitchen, 7 armoires, 180 linear feet of wainscot, 2 new bathrooms, etc. I love working on my wife's table. It is fun.

For this project, I don't think it is about the quick and easy or if it is traditional that is important but what will be safe over a long term. We need to think about how it will be used, by kids. Kids are hard on furniture with wiggles, jumping, climbing, etc. that will put a lot of stress on the joints. I truly believe that PH joints are wrong for this project. And, that is coming from someone that loves using PH joints.

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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> This is a woodworking forum, and there should be PITA guys like me that advocate traditional woodworking methods. I may be in the minority, and that's OK.
> 
> .


I agree 100%. I hope I didn't give the impression that I felt otherwise.

As for you being a PITA... simply not true as far as I'm concerned. The fact is that your advocacy for traditional joinery has peaked my interest about it.

I have a strong interest in Arts & Crafts/Stickley/Mission style furniture but will not build any of it until I'm able to use the joinery typical of these styles.

Jeff


"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Mark Twain


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## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

PH pints are really good. If the old mastes had the they would have used them. They do have limits especially in softwood that bear important weights like the kids. There should be joinery that supports the critical wet like the ends of the bed rails. Why not put a small cross board in a small dado with screws under the ends of the bed rails. Or:
The rails could be put in shallow mortises 1/8 to 1/4 inch before screwed to the legs.
It is about fun but we want our projects to be safe. Excuse me if I misunderstand the project.
Bb


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## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

After a week of being so sick, I can finally manage to make it off the couch. 

I think i'm in for the long haul with the PH's on this project. However, I will be making a loft bed for the other kid right after I finish this one. What kinds of joints would be recommended for a loft/bunk bed kind of project? I don't think i'm capable of doing anything fancy because I don't have the tools, but i'm sure I can learn something new for the next project. 

Also, I told the 3 year old that I was making the bed for her, and now that it's almost all together, I think she gets it. For the last two days, she's been out there 'helping' me. She also really seems to like the hand held sander for some reason. I think I may have created a little 3 foot monster though, because all of a sudden she's telling me things (often) like "Come on mom, you need to help me build my bed!" as she runs to the shed. I think she spent 45 minutes out there today sanding and measuring the thing. lol 

Here she is yesterday discovering her new passion for the hand sander. lol


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

What a nice child. You must be proud. 

Before we give you a lot of specific help, can you tell us what tools you do have so we can give you your best options?

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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

TCM,

Glad you're feeling better. Welcome back to the land of the living!

Suzie is a little sweetheart. Thanks for linking to that Video. Very heartwarming.

I agree that if we had a better idea of the tools you have available to you we could be more helpful.

Just lay them out on that table Suzie was sanding on an snap a photo.

The bed looks really good by the way. It should be pretty easy to beef up those PH joints and in doing so you could make the fix a decorative element.

Jeff

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"

Mark Twain


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## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't have a whole lot of tools. And i'm not so sure i'm willing to spend a lot of money on anything specialized. The best I might be willing to do is about $50 for a good jig (at least until after I get the mitre saw I've been eye-balling)

I have:
A circular saw
a sander
a few hand saws
a crumby plastic miter box
two drills with various bits
a Kreg Jig Jr
A couple of carpenter squares
a few clamps
a level
stuff that everyone has; hammer, sand paper, tons of screws and nails screwdrivers etc...

I think that's about it. I can swing a few cheaper tools into the house, but I can't go over the top with stuff. 

Thanks!


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## JQMack (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm in the process of building something similar myself, loft bed with an integrated platform, for my 7 year old son.

There has been plenty of good advice, and I can say that looking at what I have been working with, other than a Miter Saw, there is nothing missing from your tool list that I would consider a requirement.

For this type of project I think the PHs are a reasonable way to get everything assembled, but I wouldn't use joints where they are the only support. They might hold, but with kids they are definitely going to loosen.

I think some pictures of the joints you're having issues with might help us give you some better examples of how you could reinforce them.


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

I wanted to draw up some plans but you might be able to locate some off the Internet; however, my suggestion would be to use larger lag screws and 2x6 lumber. Screw in from the end instead of trying to hide the small PH screws. I didn't have time to draw plans but here is a website where someone did this. http://lumberjocks.com/projects/4876

A lot of children's beds are made this way. You have all the tools you will need.

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## GroovyMambo (Jun 10, 2012)

TCM, I would suggest that on the bed seen in the video - for strength I would add some L shaped corner brackets on the inside frame corners (the frame that supports the slats) for more reinforcement and also bolt the legs to the frame as well. That should keep the bed sturdy. This hardware will not be seen as its inside and underneath.


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## TCM (Sep 3, 2012)

vursenbach said:


> I wanted to draw up some plans but you might be able to locate some off the Internet; however, my suggestion would be to use larger lag screws and 2x6 lumber. Screw in from the end instead of trying to hide the small PH screws. I didn't have time to draw plans but here is a website where someone did this. http://lumberjocks.com/projects/4876
> 
> A lot of children's beds are made this way. You have all the tools you will need.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Wood Forum



I have been looking at this, as I am getting ready to start bed number 2.

Do I need a special drill bit to make holes for this? What size screw would you recommend for a 2x6? How do I get the hole on the surface that the screw head will sink into? I know the one countersink bit I have won't make those kind of holes. I tried looking through youtube videos, but clearly I don't know what to search for, because all I mostly found were what looked like commercials for drills. 

Thanks!


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

TCM said:


> I have been looking at this, as I am getting ready to start bed number 2.
> 
> Do I need a special drill bit to make holes for this? What size screw would you recommend for a 2x6? How do I get the hole on the surface that the screw head will sink into? I know the one countersink bit I have won't make those kind of holes. I tried looking through youtube videos, but clearly I don't know what to search for, because all I mostly found were what looked like commercials for drills.
> 
> Thanks!


I start the hole with a spade bit slightly larger than the head of the lag and drill to a depth slightly deeper than the thickness of the head. Then switch drills/bits and drill the pilot hole itself. :smile:

EDIT, actually, the spade bit needs to large enough to accept the socket/tool you are going to be using to install the lags.


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## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

*Bed Bolts*












If you want to use bolts from the end remember that you are going into end grain so screw type bolts are far from ideal. You want to use 3/8 in x 5 inch bolts with captureded nuts.
It's much easier than it may sound. 
Above is a picture. If you can find it. you could do a search for Lee Valley then Search for Bed bolts and you will find the right hardware and the pictures of how to use them.
You could use the same bolts from a Box store but less elegantly.
If you must use lag bolts then a few holes drilled sideways in the path of the bolts with the same size dowel(ideally at least 3/4) could be glued in and they would give the bolts a stronger purchase.
The captured bolts with your had tools are pretty easy to to use. Drill slightly oversized holes. Use a spade bit or forstner bit. hol the nut with a magnet while you screw the long bolt from the end.
I hope this was not too confusing. Im using an internet cafe computer so cant see the format of what i"m typing as well.​


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