# Spray paint fisheyes.



## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

I doubt that spray paint is heavily discussed here but I'm running into a weird issue I'm trying to figure out. I'm considering repainting an old guitar I have lying around and experimenting with different finishes. Since I work at a paint store, I just grabbed a few cans of paint we have there to see how good of a finish I can get. Here is the process I'm using. (on sample pieces of wood by the way)
1) Sand wood to a very smooth finish ending with 400 grit Silicon Carbide paper.
2) two coats of shellac sanding sealer
3) dry sand with 400 grit
4) two more coats sanding sealer
5) dry sand with 400 grit
6) shoot two coats of Zinsser BIN aerosol.
7) dry sand with 400 grit and damp clean the surface
8) once dry I spray the paint

The first time, I tried Krylon All Surface Enamel. On the first light coat I immediately get fisheyes in the finish. I can apply more coats to even it out some but the areas where it fisheyed are still obvious in the finish. Otherwise it comes out like glass. I've tried applying the paint in thinner and thicker coats but get the same results. 

The next step was to try another can of paint. Same issues. So I tried Krylon Rust Tough. Same problem. I thought it might be an issues with the Shellac so I tried Fusion since it sticks to plastic. Same problem. I ditch the BIN. Sprayed with a Ruddy Red primer instead. (the primers by the way all come out flawless) I reattempt both the All Surface and Rust tough. Fisheyes again. 

At this point I'm back to BIN and after the last failure I actually grabbed a 20 year old can of cheap Colorplace paint off a shelf in my basement. The ball was free and it shook up and sprayed like new. It also left a finish devoid of fisheyes. Now I'm really stumped. So I made one more BIN/Krylon attempt. Fisheyes again. This time I wiped it off with Goof-off immediately. This left a fairly clean layer of BIN. I sanded and sprayed with the other Krylon. Fisheyes. Goof-off and sand again. Spray the same board with the Colorplace and it's flawless.

I'm gonna skip the regular store brands this time and go straight to Dupli-color and see what happens as my next trial.

Does anyone have any idea what is going on here? Is it something to do with Krylon paints? And if so why do the primers work fine?

The only difference I can see is that the Krylon is a Toluene and Xylene base and the Colorplace is Toluene and Acetone with less pigment from the look of it.

Sorry to be long winded but it's been a real process of the last week and I can't get a good finish with anything I've tried.

Thanks for any input.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

gideond said:


> I doubt that spray paint is heavily discussed here but I'm running into a weird issue I'm trying to figure out. I'm considering repainting an old guitar I have lying around and experimenting with different finishes. Since I work at a paint store, I just grabbed a few cans of paint we have there to see how good of a finish I can get. Here is the process I'm using. (on sample pieces of wood by the way)
> 1) Sand wood to a very smooth finish ending with 400 grit Silicon Carbide paper.
> 2) two coats of shellac sanding sealer
> 3) dry sand with 400 grit
> ...


I'll ask you to try one more thing this next time, afterwords we can discuss what it could be if this fails also ok?

Sand your bin primer again and apply your clear shellac sanding sealer, only this time don't sand it at all, let dry for several hours or more and then apply the krylon and get back with the results ok?


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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

Sure thing. I've already got another BIN sample ready. I'll seal it tonight and spray it again tomorrow.


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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

I did as you suggested. This time I have 4 coats of sanding sealer and two coats of spray BIN just as before. This time I sanded the whole prime coat lightly with a fine sanding sponge. I then brushed a layer of sealer on half of it. I let it dry several hours until tonight. This time I sprayed parts on both sides of the sample with a can of Rustoleum black I got at Lowes today. No fisheyes on either side. I then tried a can that I have had issues with on each sample. No fisheyes on the primer or the sealer. I'm kind of at a loss now. I can understand the difference on the side with the sealer, but the other side is exactly the same as before which has failed every time. The only difference is that I sanded less. The texture is apparent on this sample, but it seems like If I sand it perfectly smooth and flat none of the paint will stick without fisheyes. I'm trying one more time to see if I get good results again before I seriously consider doing this to an actual guitar.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

gideond said:


> I did as you suggested. This time I have 4 coats of sanding sealer and two coats of spray BIN just as before. This time I sanded the whole prime coat lightly with a fine sanding sponge. I then brushed a layer of sealer on half of it. I let it dry several hours until tonight. This time I sprayed parts on both sides of the sample with a can of Rustoleum black I got at Lowes today. No fisheyes on either side. I then tried a can that I have had issues with on each sample. No fisheyes on the primer or the sealer. I'm kind of at a loss now. I can understand the difference on the side with the sealer, but the other side is exactly the same as before which has failed every time. The only difference is that I sanded less. The texture is apparent on this sample, but it seems like If I sand it perfectly smooth and flat none of the paint will stick without fisheyes. I'm trying one more time to see if I get good results again before I seriously consider doing this to an actual guitar.


 
Before you use your current schedule to do anything with, let me explain a few things ok?

First you should never build multiple coats of shellac, it is meant as a first coat only sealer, yes, I'm well aware that 3 or more coats of 3lb cut are used as a floor finish, but you have to remember it is the "only" finish being applied!! it has no other types of coatings going over it ok?

Next, though bin primer is a very good primer, it to is still shellac, and more prone to cracking when built up. yes, i know your sanding a lot off, but all together you still have a combination of shellac that's thick. thirdly, shellac is hardly ever used on guitars unless as a friction [french] polish which is very thin, it's just not durable enough. yes again i know your applying lacquer over it, but if the foundation is weak it just weakens the lacquer. 

Now, i would like to know if by chance your using it to build up a open pore wood such as mahogany or ash etc, so if you would tell me what wood your using ok? it's very simple to just "fill the pores" with paste wood pore filler [SW sells it} so that no shellac will even be necessary. SW also carries both lacquer sanding sealer and lacquer top coats, been using them for decades and thier pretty good they eve n made ones for CF martin guitars back in the 70's ok?

If your not set up to spray bulk lacquers then i suggest you buy spray cans of lacquer sealer and top caots from Mowhawk Finishing supplies, why?, because that way you will have a totally compatible finishing system to use not just for guitars but anything else!! compatability is a key issue when it comes to good results ok?

With filling the pores [if that is the case], and using lacquer sanding sealer instead of shellac 2 or 3 spray can coats only, and finishing off with as many top coats as you wish to use, there should be no more problems - but - if there are you can then call mowhawk and get advice on how to fix them if there are, like fisheyes for example, in bulk spray you can get an additive again from SW called fisheye remover that can be added to the lacquers to combat it, i'm not sure if they still sell the spray cans with FE additive in them or not? ok?

And last, the "KEY" to a good finish is in the wood preperation, the smoother you make it the smoother your finish will be, by smooth that means also filling and dmages as well as any pores etc.. If the surface is as smooth as glass then your finish will be to. I personally spend 80% of my time prepping the woods as to 20% of the time applying stain/paint or top coats. 

Do what you wil, but at least give it some serious thought :yes:


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

My understanding is that "fisheye" is generally caused by an improper pressure setting of the spray gun.

George


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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

I appreciate the input. The whole deal with using the layers of Shellac was from reading over a guide on finishing at the Reranch website, which is where all the guitar forums kept pointing me. I could have used shellac or lacquer but chose to try the shellac method because I had the product on hand already and the fumes are easier to deal with in my current work area. Lacquer can be pretty potent. I'll probably move toward lacquer once the weather warms up and I can set up a temporary spray booth outside. The shellac and enamel method is just not yielding consistent results for me. 

I work in a Pratt and Lambert store, which is part of SW and I'm pretty sure I have access to at least the lacquer primer, but no I don't have the capacity to bulk spray at this point. I'll probably try the Mohawk products at this point. There is only one guitar I'm doing this way right now. The others I've done have been water based dyes with an acrylic topcoat, which I have no issues getting great results from.

I've experimented on several types of wood now and am aware of the grain filler application. I was simply trying the methods as outlined on Reranch this time around. I have to strip the guitar in question so I'm not yet sure what it's bods is constructed of. Considering it's origin it could very well be plywood. 

I do spend a lot of time on wood prep as well. I've gotten most of my samples as dead flat and finely sanded as I can before any sealer is applied. My first samples looked amazing all the way up through the primer coats. Only the fisheyes caused issues. 

I'll definitely take all your advice into consideration. Thanks again.


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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> My understanding is that "fisheye" is generally caused by an improper pressure setting of the spray gun.
> 
> George


Not a spray gun here. Just rattle cans at the moment. Not optimal I know but investing a bunch on spray equipment for one cheaply made bass guitar would be a waste for me at this point.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

gideond said:


> Does anyone have any idea what is going on here? Is it something to do with Krylon paints? And if so why do the primers work fine?
> 
> The only difference I can see is that the Krylon is a Toluene and Xylene base and the Colorplace is Toluene and Acetone with less pigment from the look of it.
> 
> ...


Fisheye is a condition of rejection. Generally speaking, oil based products can be applied over most any finish. I'm thiking that the problem could be with the shellac. Shellac can go bad over time. It may not dry completely. If the shellac was de-waxed it's less likely you would have a compatibility problem. 

Many finishers that have written articles and books on finishing techniques cover the contamination problems...causes...effects and fixes. I too have dealt with this issue in my book. It can start with how the wood was prepared, products used, and ambient conditions. Some products are packaged with a silicone ingredient, even as a slight amount.

Fisheye manifests itself with surface tensions that inhibit the coating to flow. Some of those conditions under certain situations will create a large enough area to mask the fisheye. Contamination can come from a variety of sources, including silicones, waxes, cleaning compounds, or buffing materials. Through the steps of finishing, i.e., cutting sanding, the contaminate becomes airborne, and comes to rest wherever it pleases. Whether what is present will be problematic isn't obvious until it actually happens. Once the area or equipment is contaminated, ridding it is close to impossible.

So, it may be your area, or the products used. It's possible that one or more of the products may be reacting with eachother, or to other sources. My suggestion would be to try another location (away from that area) if you can. start with a sample piece, and use simple compatibly based products to test. You could use a grain filler if need be. You can use sealers like a lacquer sanding sealer, vinyl sealer, or an oil base primer, and then use your paint topcoat. I would use fresh materials. I would stay away from shellac. 










 







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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the BIN is not dewaxed. The sanding sealer is but I can find no mention of dewaxing on the BIN cans. It shouldn't be an age issue either. Batch codes put these products at about 3 month old.

I have moved the project to a different work area and run into the same issues. I've tried different sand papers, both Silicon Carbide and garnet with the same results. I've also tried different primers other than BIN. I've used Coverstain, Kilz, and a Krylon Ruddy Red primer that is from the same system as the paint that is topcoating it. The primers all come out fine but the paint fisheyes. I would tend to think that if it were an environmental factor it would cause the same issues with the primer as the paint. Also I figure if it were the shellac then having removed the shellac from the equation would have gotten better results, but it hasn't. 

The next batch will be lacquer top to bottom in a very clean work space and I'll see what happens.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

gideond said:


> I'm pretty sure the BIN is not dewaxed. The sanding sealer is but I can find no mention of dewaxing on the BIN cans. It shouldn't be an age issue either. Batch codes put these products at about 3 month old.
> 
> I have moved the project to a different work area and run into the same issues. I've tried different sand papers, both Silicon Carbide and garnet with the same results. I've also tried different primers other than BIN. I've used Coverstain, Kilz, and a Krylon Ruddy Red primer that is from the same system as the paint that is topcoating it. The primers all come out fine but the paint fisheyes. I would tend to think that if it were an environmental factor it would cause the same issues with the primer as the paint. Also I figure if it were the shellac then having removed the shellac from the equation would have gotten better results, but it hasn't.
> 
> The next batch will be lacquer top to bottom in a very clean work space and I'll see what happens.


Good luck gideond, here's to your sucess.


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## gideond (Feb 23, 2012)

I just found out an installer that works for us has access to a professional spray booth and equipment at a furniture shop. If my next attempt fails I think I know where I'm headed next!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

gideond said:


> I just found out an installer that works for us has access to a professional spray booth and equipment at a furniture shop. If my next attempt fails I think I know where I'm headed next!


good to hear!! using heavier coats will be a big help.


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