# Collection at the source: rarely discussed.



## cburdick1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hello all,

I've been visiting this thread regularly, chiming in when I feel appropriate and hoping that I add some value to the discussion.

It seems to me that there are 3 components to a dust collection system:

1 - The Dust collector itself (motor, separator, filters, etc)
2 - The method of transporting material (duct, gates, hose etc)
3 - The method of collection (how the dust is collected at the source of the cutting).

It seems to me that the majority of discussion in this forum is dedicated to the first two, when I personally believe that the third category may affect the quality of a dust collection system as much as the first two.

Example: my miter saw has a built in 2.5 inch port on the back of it, insufficient for collecting the dust that it produces. When I built my dust collection system, I tried numerous methods of collecting the dust produced by the saw, some effective and others ineffective. I built a variety of shrouds out of cardboard and packing tape, refining the design to be as close to the saw as possible without inhibiting it's range of motion. Once I came up with a good design, and recreated the cardboard shroud with sheet aluminum and pop rivets. 

The initial designs that I came up with were less effective than my final design, yet the power of my dust collector and ducting design remained constant. Thus, my experience is that looking at the source of the dust (tools) and the manner in which the dust is collected is as important to building successful dust collection system as the choice of which collector to use and the design of the ducting system.

Thoughts?


----------



## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

cburdick1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been visiting this thread regularly, chiming in when I feel appropriate and hoping that I add some value to the discussion.
> 
> ...


I've noticed the same thing and I've also noticed that many seem to be more concerned with capturing dust _*after*_ it gets into the air with shop made filters etc however as part of my complete dust collection plan I chose the route you did which was to also capture as much dust as possible at the source _*before *_it gets into the air. Below are a few of my solutions that work very well and I am working on an even more efficient solution for the table saw that I'll post in the future.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/oneida-super-dust-deputy-thein-baffle-jet-vortex-cone-etc-49310/
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/shop-built-table-saw-overarm-dust-collection-hood-45394/
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/router-table-build-pics-54980/
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/quick-easy-drill-press-dust-chip-collection-50995/

Table saw..



Band saw...





Router table..







Drill Press...



I also use a tool vac/dust deputy cyclone connected to ports on my hand held routers, sanders, jig saw etc and I use the following at the bench to collect dust during procedures where I cannot connect directly to the source...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Great Job!*

While I have given the advice "collect it at the source" many times, those methods you show are great! :thumbsup:
I find the dust spit up by the table saw the most annoying and have tried several means to collect it using and overarm PVC system hooked to a shop vac. The Biesemyer system is the best as it gets completely out of the way when you want it to.
Here's a few of my methods:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f7/dust-collection-woodnthings-shop-part-1-a-20273/

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/12-radial-arm-saw/


----------



## captainawesome (Jun 21, 2012)

I agree with all of the above. In fact, Marv helped me out with my bandsaw and showed me those detailed pictures of his setup. I was prepared to cut a 4" hole in my bs cabinet, but after retrofitting a 2 1/2" shop vac port directly below the table, I capture about 90% of the dust.

I would love to rig up an overarm dust collection for the tablesaw but I don't think I have the space for it. Besides the TS, I'd say my router is the worst offender. I have it mounted in my extension wing with DC on the fence and below the table. I still manage to make a huge mess even with the dust collector and shopvac running. It's even worse when I'm using it in the plunge or fixed base with an edge guide or freehand. I've yet to find a solution that is even remotely effective. Most times I set up my big gulp dust hood, but that doesn't seem to do a whole lot.

How would Y'ALL deal with that mess? I have a Bosch 1617 evs if that makes a difference.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

captainawesome said:


> I'd say my router is the worst offender. I have it mounted in my extension wing with DC on the fence and below the table. I still manage to make a huge mess even with the dust collector and shopvac running. It's even worse when I'm using it in the plunge or fixed base with an edge guide or freehand. I've yet to find a solution that is even remotely effective. Most times I set up my big gulp dust hood, but that doesn't seem to do a whole lot.
> 
> How would Y'ALL deal with that mess? I have a Bosch 1617 evs if that makes a difference.


Bosch does make factory dust collection hoods for the 1617. I haven't got a 1617 so I can't testify to their effectiveness but they do move the dust port right next to the collet so it should be pretty decent.
Amazon.com: Bosch RA1172AT Router Dust Extraction Hood Kit: Home Improvement
Good Luck and keep us posted:smile:


----------



## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

jschaben said:


> Bosch does make factory dust collection hoods for the 1617. I haven't got a 1617 so I can't testify to their effectiveness but they do move the dust port right next to the collet so it should be pretty decent.
> Amazon.com: Bosch RA1172AT Router Dust Extraction Hood Kit: Home Improvement
> Good Luck and keep us posted:smile:


I have that edge work hood for my Bosch 1618evs D-handle however for some reason it doesn't work as well as the hood on my Porter Cable D-handle router. :icon_confused:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*chips vs dust*

I'll get back on my favorite horse here and whip the discussion a bit. There are 3 ways to suck dust and chips and filter air:
Shop Vac,
Dust Collector 
Air Filtration unit hung from the ceiling.

Here's what I've found by years of tryin' different set ups. A shop vac with a high velocity, low volume air stream really works best a few inches from the source, better than a DC hood. A radial arm saw or a miter saw with the guard that surrounds the blade is a good candidate for a shop vac on that port. However, a great quantity of dust shoots out the back of the blade and into the shop unless there is a collection box or shield on the back of the saw. That's where I put the 4" DC hose and try to get most of the fine saw dust. A table saw should also have an overarm dust collector the catch the fine dust spit off the top of the blade. 

A 4" dust collector attached to a planer or joiner will remove a good quantity of the chips and keep the machine operating fully. When the chips build up on the rollers it will prevent them from feeding the wood on a planer with rubber rollers. A dust hood at the bottom of a table saw cabinet will only collect the dust the falls to the bottom. You will see a gradually sloped mound of dust the doesn't get removed around the port if you don't clean it out for a long time. The newer table saws have a shroud right tight to the blade and it has a suction port on the rear for a shop vac, My Bosch Job Site is like that.

Bandsaws are the "stealth" dust generators in my shop and make a lot of fine dust unless they have a shop vac located right under the table at the bottom blade guides. 

Routers also generate a bunch of fine dust. My router table has the shop vac adaptor right the rear of the fence and does a good job of getting the fines, but some still falls below onto the motor. By that time it's not airborne and relatively harmless in my opinion.

In time, the dust that gets airborne needs to get filtered out by an overhead Air Filtration system. I use the Jet model: Amazon.com: JET 708620B AFS-1000B 550/702/1044 CFM 3-Speed Air Filtration System with Remote and Electrostatic Pre-Filter: Home Improvement By running the unit after the machines are off for 15 minutes ir so, you can really tell the difference in the air quality.

A drum sander is the worst. Period. If you have one, you know exactly what I mean. A 24" dual drum needs a very powerful DC to keep the drums from building up with dust and burning the wood. Very fine incremental cuts are all you can take with these in my experience or the drum overheats. When ever I run the drum, I aways run the overhead as well a some fine dust always escapes.

Hand ROS and also a dust generating monster, inspite of their small size. A shop vac hose to the dust port works great, but the hose needs to be a smaller, light weight and very flexible type, The standard 2 1/2" hose doesn't work since you can't move the sander easily. :smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Best dust collection on a miter saw*

Is this one by gregL:
More pictures here: Compound Miter saw


----------



## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

jschaben said:


> Bosch does make factory dust collection hoods for the 1617. I haven't got a 1617 so I can't testify to their effectiveness but they do move the dust port right next to the collet so it should be pretty decent.
> Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-RA1172AT-Router-Dust-Extraction/dp/B00005RHPR
> Good Luck and keep us posted:smile:


I have this Bosch dust kit for the 1617 and I am moderately pleased. The port for the fixed base mounts to the top and is really straight forward. I modified it to be a 45° output so that it would work with my router table. There is no top side dust collection option for the plunge base. Since my fixed base is tied up under my table...you can see my problem. The other attachment is for doing edge work and mounts to the bottom of the base. I really don't do handheld edge work often, so I can't speak to the effectiveness.



woodnthings said:


> ...In time, the dust that gets airborne needs to get filtered out by an overhead Air Filtration system. I use the Jet model: Amazon.com: JET 708620B AFS-1000B 550/702/1044 CFM 3-Speed Air Filtration System with Remote and Electrostatic Pre-Filter: Home Improvement By running the unit after the machines are off for 15 minutes ir so, you can really tell the difference in the air quality...


I keep adding stuff like this to our baby registry and it keeps disappearing. Either the wife is wise to my game or someone is buying the baby a Vega TS fence and a shop air cleaner!

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


----------



## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

I agree with what you say, but I think the point of collecting at the source is buried in much of the advice. When folks mention moving lots of air, or replace the puny factory ports, or run 6" all the way to the tools, those comments all focus on the physical setup but have one goal: collect as much as possible at the source. Maybe that last phrase should be mentioned more often instead of (IMHO) needing to read between the lines. I do think your post has brought up some great discussion, maybe I'm incorrect in my assumption about that point being buried in the replies normally given.


----------



## cburdick1 (Jan 22, 2010)

The reason why I posted this thread is due to the vast amount of threads dedicated to "which dust collector should I buy?" with comparatively few "how have you guys rigged up your tools for dust collection?".

Granted, most pro and semi-pro machines have 4" dust ports and a strong DC will be able to pull pretty much anything that they create. But router tables, miter saws, routers and router tables, band saws and a ton of other tools don't have such a good built in method of dust collection.

Case in point: I was in the market for a new finish sander and a particular Porter Cable kept coming up as very highly rated, yet offers no method for collecting dust. Short of building a downdraft sanding table (not high on my list), any tools that have no allowance for dust collection are instantly off my shopping list.

Thanks everyone for posting your setups. I appreciate the discourse and constructive discussion.


----------



## Masterjer (Nov 6, 2012)

This is a great discussion. Thanks for bringing it up. My nemesis right now is the dewalt sliding miter. Is there a simple adapter that will allow me to connect it to a 2.5" or even a 4" hose? I have the Dw 780 12" saw.


----------



## cburdick1 (Jan 22, 2010)

For miter saws, it seems that the best solution is one of two options:

*Good* - A box/shroud of some sort funneling the sawdust into a port connected to a large DC system.
*Better* - The above, plus another connection to the saw's built in duct collection port.

I think the best solution is the second option, the built in dust port allows removal of the majority of the dust, while the box/shroud allows the large DC to capture any dust that gets away from the smaller built in connection.

I have the first option, and plan to connect a small shop vac to the saw's built in dust port at some point in the near future.


----------



## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

Hand held power tools fall outside of the DC setup, IMHO. They are best handled with a shop vac. I'm not sure which PC sander to which you refer, but the 390 has a connector that hooks right up to a 1 1/4" hose, and really sands quite dust free. Bear in mind, even a world class DC system will not get everything...there are sources that seem to defy collection, mostly with hand held tools.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I use 2 shop vacs*

A small one on the blade cover and a larger one undernreath for the dust collection box at the rear. My saw stays at 90 degrees so there is no need for a huge hood for various angle cuts. It was actually a pretty cheap solution, under $100 with the Ridgid 6.5 HP? on sale. http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/12-radial-arm-saw/ This saves running a lot of pipe to the RAS. 

Here's another very efficient design, disregard the operator hand position without a blade guard: :thumbdown:


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Not "trying" to be pendantic.......it comes naturally,in certain areas.

In your opening thread you listed 3 "components".The fourth may in fact be the most important.And thats the machine itself.Should come as a no-brainer(hence the pendantic's).....but for me this is where it all starts(ha).

Meaning whenever the DC subject comes up,my first reaction is....what pc of equip?Then we proceed.The reasons are many.Some machines produce fines and others produce chips,etc.etc.

But theres also the element of "how much"?This is volume....comparing a planer,and even then,theres a huge difference in a modest 12" and a Big'n(24" and over).....but compared to sanding/grinding equipment,the volume is quite different,yes/no?

So,am just sayin...start the discussion with the pce of machinery...then go to your other 3.Also,need to be clear on whether this is a "whole shop" system or a dedicated or "zoned" system.But in anycase,DC is one of my favorite topics......best of luck.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Been meaning to post this for awhile and heck,might as well pollute(ha) this thread.

Specifics here.......we have a very nice little 15" Grizz planer(any bigger and we sub it out,just can't afford babysitting a planner shed).It does yoeman service,yadayada.It just "happens" to be the pce of equip I'm using in this discussion.The very same thing happens on any pc that has a "choke"(as in shotgun brrl)....or "bottleneck",with the machines duct system.

This is not to be confused with a transition in the duct system itself.These are best eleiminated by running WAY longer transitions.....gets into a bunch of flow theory....and isn't what I'm refering to.

Nope,this is a classic choke on the machine itself....look at your planer.I've spent way too much time reading engineering data on alternative DC systems.Drop out bxs are one item that I learned about,amongst others.But this one comes from Aerodyne....If you take a std air hose from your shop AC(compressor),and attach a pce of ice maker tube to a small regulator.Now we need to mount this in a proffesional,neat install so that;It is directed right at the bottle neck from the downwind side.IOW's,we're trying to force the chips back from whence they came.

Can't fully explain how it works.....and imaging and modeling may make some grad student have a feelgood moment but,testing is the name of the game here.Dosen't need to be a full on blast...hence the regulator.Run only how much it takes to bust up any unwanted convergences.....they happen right at the choke,so when you're drilling that little 1/4" hole(and theres other things,meters N such that utilize this same hole,BTW)...drill it downstream from the choke.

To test,simply...disconnect your DC hose and watch how the chips fly........if they're flying good,well done(on the factory for a well designed throat).But if they're getting "hung up".....try a real soft blast of air right at the problem.Put your protection gear on(eyes/nose),and take a little peak in there and you'll see this happen.This wasn't my idea,just to be clear.It is used by Aerodyne on these industrial air scrubbers that can swallow a VW.

It works well on RT's.The secondary benny here is that you use the air blast in this case,from the bttm of the table,pointed right at the motor.....it acts to cool the motor,SIGNIFICANTLY.But sets up the air disturbance to improve the DC.


----------



## cburdick1 (Jan 22, 2010)

BWSmith said:


> Not "trying" to be pendantic.......it comes naturally,in certain areas.
> 
> In your opening thread you listed 3 "components".The fourth may in fact be the most important.And thats the machine itself.Should come as a no-brainer(hence the pendantic's).....but for me this is where it all starts(ha).
> 
> ...


I see you point saying the machine itself is the 4th part of the dust collection equation. I think I'm looking at it from a slightly different point of view, that the dust collection system must be built to handle each particular machine individually. Neither is wrong, just worded differently.

I have a small basement woodshop, my DC consists of a heavily modified HF Dust Collector with a Thein baffle and Wynn filter, 5" HVAC pipe running to my miter saw and to 1 10' length of 5" flex hose which I attach to whatever machine is going to be used. 

As an example of how one must design collection for each tool, my Jet 14" band saw only had a 2.5" port designed into the machine to collect dust. It sucked (well, actually it didn't) at collecting sawdust, so i removed it and bungeed a piece of 3/4" ply w/ a 4" quick fitting screwed onto it. I connect it to that 10' piece of flex hose which makes short work of collecting all sawdust.










I hope that this thread starts other threads about collecting dust from difficult sources (routers, miter saws, sanders etc).


----------



## CT Proctor (Aug 5, 2013)

For both of my router tables I have Dust Router's made by Keen products installed, they work very well and I get little to no dust on the tables. They also make a solution for a SCMS but I haven't ordered it yet, hope it works as well as their router setup.

As for my main table saw (PM66), I have the dc line split. One hose goes to the tool dust port and the other goes to a Grizzly over arm blade guard/ dust collector. The Grizz thingy works ok but there are cuts where you can't use it. I also took magnetic sheets and cut them to go over the handle openings and other holes in the saws cabinet. For my dado TS, I bought a plastic adaptor that hooks a dc hose to the saw, and did the magnet thing again. 

I use a Dynabrade pneumatic RO sander with a vac attachment, it works fairly well but I also sand in front of a big gulp hood hooked to my dc as much as possible.


----------

