# table saw outlet



## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

I am going to put a 220v outlet in for my new soon to be here table saw. My question is should I use 12 or 14 gauge wire for it? The outlet is going to be about 4 ft. from the circuit breaker 30 amp breaker... I have about 12 ft. of 14 gauge wire at the house now but if you all think I need to put 12 gauge in I will go set some...........Thanks Gary


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

If you're using a 30 amp breaker I would use #10. For a 20 amp breaker you can use #12. Don't use #14 at all for that circuit.

What's the current draw on the table saw?


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## woodchux (Jul 6, 2014)

No matter what the distance/type of wire required, it is best to check the building code in your area! Be safe.


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Sorry I meant to say 20 amp breaker not 30. Full load current rating- 12.8 Amps.
The Power Cord Gauge- 14 AWG


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

All good advice above. You can use #14, IF -

1) current draw at 240 for the intended saw is less than 10 amps, and
2) You put it on a 15 amp breaker.


Guess you have to balance a couple variables - cost of some #10 wire to use your 30 amp breaker VS cost of a 15 amp breaker, vs perhaps later needing more power at that outlet. Sounds like a tossup for the first two. You can always add another 240 volt circuit if you acquire another tool that needs it.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Kansas Gary said:


> Sorry I meant to say 20 amp breaker not 30. Full load current rating- 12.8 Amps.
> The Power Cord Gauge- 14 AWG


You posted while I was typing! Best then is to buy a few feet of #12....


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Thanks Alchymist and difalkner I will put the 14 g wire back in the cabinet and go get a few feet of 12g wire from Home Depot tomorrow..........Thanks again for the advice......Gary


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

So a few things....you only need a 15 amp breaker if your expected draw is 10.8 amps. And you should use the appropriate breaker, think of it this way, if the breaker doesn't trip until 20, and something goes wrong with the saw, you could be drawing double the amperage which will do damage. 

So, I'd switch the breaker to 15 amp, and since 14 gauge is certified to carry 15 amps all day long, I'd run 14 gauge. There is no benefit to running larger wire than needed, especially in that short of a run.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> There is no benefit to running larger wire than needed, especially in that short of a run.


 A couple of benefits are that the cost will be low for such a short run and if he ever upgrades to a beefier piece of equipment and needs to put in a 20 amp breaker, then the wire will already be in place. Would I do that for hundreds of feet - no. But for less than 10 feet - yes.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

A 15 amp breaker will support a 3hp motor on 220v. A 5 hp motor is going to require a 30 amp breaker which will need 10 gauge wiring......

So...wiring and breaker needed for 220 saws...

2 hp - 14 gauge and 15 amp 
3hp - 14 gauge and 15 amp
5hp - 10 gauge and 30 amp

Now I'm all in support of 12 gauge wiring where the specs dictate it, or for 120 circuits that you may have additional items running on, but running larger than needed wiring and breakers is a waste of money, and can be dangerous. 

Small example.. My Dewalt Radial arm saw runs a 15 amp breaker, once the blade jammed and it blew the breaker before any damage was done, had the breaker been a 20 amp breaker, it could have fried the motor.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would never use 14 gauge wire for an outlet. What if you upgrade the saw with a bigger one. Then you would be upgrading the wiring to fit it. It's better to run a heavier wire and be done with it.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

I thought the thread was about a place to buy table saws


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I would never use 14 gauge wire for an outlet. What if you upgrade the saw with a bigger one. Then you would be upgrading the wiring to fit it. It's better to run a heavier wire and be done with it.



Steve, 

I know some people have their opinions about wiring....but for 220 saws, up to 3 hp motors can be run safely and effectively on 14 gauge. 5 hp saws need 10 gauge, so 12 gauge wiring will do nothing for the upgrade that may happen some day. 

14 gauge wire is certified for 15 amps continuous run.....will 12 gauge work, sure, but it is an unnecessary expense from a purely scientific point of view. If you're more content with 12 gauge, by all means use it, but it is by no means (Or Code) required.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

mengtian said:


> I thought the thread was about a place to buy table saws



Lol...sadly no, you'd be looking for Rockler.com or Grizzly.com for that.....this is just a place where we can debate the need for over wiring your shop...


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> A 15 amp breaker will support a 3hp motor on 220v. A 5 hp motor is going to require a 30 amp breaker which will need 10 gauge wiring......
> 
> So...wiring and breaker needed for 220 saws...
> 
> ...


Those specs don't look right to me. Both my 3 HP bandsaw and 3 HP table saw are running on 240 v and both manufacturers specify 30 amp breakers. My electrician also specified #10 for those breakers and for my power cords (but I am running longer than a few feet). I don't see how going up *one* size larger on wire could ever be dangerous. Breaker, yes. Wiring, no.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

3 hp motors draw around 14 amps...

The wiring isn't unsafe, just not needed. The breaker is the unsafe part. But often people associate the two with each other.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I just checked a few more brands, 

Powermatic 3hp saws draw 13 amps 

Grizzly draws 14 amps 

Sawstop 13 amps


I can't find any that would require a 20 amp breaker let alone a 30 amp.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I just checked a few more brands,
> 
> Powermatic 3hp saws draw 13 amps
> 
> ...


Point here is - he already has the 20 amp breaker, so the #12 being only a few feet ..... best solution. Especially when he decides he needs a 16" planer and wants to switch between them... :thumbsup:

Running 10 amp loads on 20 amp circuits is not a problem. We all do it every day - you know, plugging in your little RO sander or your 1/4" drill, your dremel tool, etc in that huge 20 amp shop receptacle.

Here;s a pretty representative chart for motor wiring:
http://groverelectric.com/howto/20_How to Calculate Wire & Fuse Sizes for Electric Motors.pdf


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I just checked a few more brands,
> 
> Powermatic 3hp saws draw 13 amps
> 
> ...


The 30 amp was a typo. The OP meant 20 amp. 

As far as the 14ga wire, I've had so much trouble with 14ga wire starving equipment for power I never use it for outlets anywhere. Just this week I had a little smudgepot compressor I had to move all over a customers house trying to find an outlet that would power it. In the end I had it so close to the breaker box I barely had enough air hose to do the job I needed. The outlet covers were off so I could see they were done with 14ga wire. This scenario is why I use 14ga wire for lighting only. There is only a little difference in cost between 14ga and 12ga wire so I don't think it's worth causing any grief over.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I just checked a few more brands,
> 
> Powermatic 3hp saws draw 13 amps
> 
> ...


I *know* how much current the motors pull but my point is that the manufacturer recommends a certain gauge wire and breaker so that's what I did. I am certain they are protecting against the startup surge and maybe more protecting themselves for any liabilities by going up to a 30 amp breaker. Just as I am certain that I would have a warranty issue if a problem were to occur with my new Laguna and I didn't follow their instructions. They are probably reducing the number of support/service calls, too, by going to a 30 amp breaker, knowing that a certain number of calls will come in from people who say their saw runs great if they can stop the breaker from tripping on startup.

Either way, just to put a stake in the ground for this discussion and thread that seems to have drifted off the OP's question, here are the electrical requirements in the PM66 manual and the Laguna 14 SUV manual.

Powermatic (it's kind of small but it says 10 ga wire 30 amp breaker)








Laguna


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> A 15 amp breaker will support a 3hp motor on 220v. A 5 hp motor is going to require a 30 amp breaker which will need 10 gauge wiring......
> 
> So...wiring and breaker needed for 220 saws...
> 
> ...


Breakers are there to protect the wiring not the tool, your saw should have an overload protector built into it to protect the motor.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodchux said:


> No matter what the distance/type of wire required, it is best to check the building code in your area! Be safe.


The building code is national. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Breakers are there to protect the wiring not the tool, your saw should have an overload protector built into it to protect the motor.


I'm no electrician but your absolutely right. Breakers are sized by the wire and outlet.

Al


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

I find that in these threads typically the two sides debating are both right if the right conditions are met. In this thread we don't have all the necessary information. 14 gauge wire will carry a 15 amp load with no problems. However the motor is not the only part of the circuit that draws power. Voltage drop has to be considered. If the wire run is over 75 feet I would not even consider 14 gauge. I personally do try to oversize wire in my shop. The main reason is voltage drop on startup of these bigger machines. A motor starving for voltage is not a good thing even if it is briefly. 

My 2¢ even if it wasn't asked for.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Yes sir, that was really my point earlier. If there is to be a weak link I want that to be a breaker or plug or power cord that I can easily upgrade or change. I don't want to have to go back into the wall or conduit to change out wire when I could have just used #12 in the first place. Like I said before, going up one size won't hurt and the cost is minimal for the short distance he's running.


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Ok all wired up for the saw now. 20amp breaker with 12g wire. Total length from the breaker box to the 220 outlet 8 feet. The manual said to use a 20amp breaker with 12g wire so that what I did........Delivery of the saw is tomorrow (Friday) in between 10am to 3pm. Looks like the wife's car will be left in the cold this weekend while I put it all together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Congrats on the new saw and I hope we helped a bit on your electrical needs, rabbits though we did chase and all. Pictures will be required once you get it put together and in place!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> The building code is national.
> 
> Al



There are a number of places that restrict the codes further. In Chicago it's required that all wiring be in conduit, no exposed nm allowed. Local codes can be more restrictive than national.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Congrats on the new saw and the correct wiring. I'm amazed at all the answers that get thrown out buy woodworkers about electrical wiring. 

Al


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Congrats on the new saw and the correct wiring. I'm amazed at all the answers that get thrown out buy woodworkers about electrical wiring.
> 
> Al


I wonder if there's an electrician's forum where they argue/discuss/dissect woodworking joints/techniques/finishes? :laughing:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

difalkner said:


> I wonder if there's an electrician's forum where they argue/discuss/dissect woodworking joints/techniques/finishes? :laughing:


That's so funny. Prolly puttin stain over poly and sanding to 120 is so smooth.

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

difalkner said:


> I wonder if there's an electrician's forum where they argue/discuss/dissect woodworking joints/techniques/finishes? :laughing:


I've seen another forum that regularly discuss electrical questions and they have 3 or 4 licensed electricians that argue over electrical questions much more than here. You would think an answer to an electrical question would be carved in stone right or wrong answer electricians could agree on but no in a big way. It must be there are as many different ways of doing electrical wiring as there is to do woodworking. It just depends on who you talk to what is right and what is wrong. It's also the reason an electrician can wire your house and call for a building inspection and get red tagged. The inspector just has a different opinion.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

woodchux said:


> No matter what the distance/type of wire required, it is best to check the building code in your area! Be safe.


This is ALWAYS the best advise when it comes to this type of question. People on this board DO NOT know what is in your local codes.

If you do something that violates the code it sets you up to future insurance problems in case of a fire or other catastrophe. DO NOT take a chance.

George


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

difalkner said:


> I wonder if there's an electrician's forum where they argue/discuss/dissect woodworking joints/techniques/finishes? :laughing:


One of the reasons there is disagreement among electricians is interpretation on the NEC. Reading comprehension level when deciphering some sections of the code is imperative.



GeorgeC said:


> This is ALWAYS the best advise when it comes to this type of question. People on this board DO NOT know what is in your local codes.
> 
> If you do something that violates the code it sets you up to future insurance problems in case of a fire or other catastrophe. DO NOT take a chance.
> 
> George


While it's true that the AHJ has the final word, they are not infallible either. Case in point, I got tagged on a 10 foot run of 12-2. Had wired the whole job in yellow jacketed 12-2, and ran out of wire. Homeowner had a piece of 12-2 NMB that had a black jacket, which I finished up with. Inspector flagged it because of the black jacket - told homeowner he had no way of knowing it was 12-2. Had he stood on a stool and looked just above eye level, he could have plainly seen the markings. Rather than wait, i just re-ran it in yellow.

As to the insurance scenario, I've heard this often, and have yet to read about it happening anywhere. Not denying, just stating...... anyone have a reference - post up.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

When I put my subpanel in I sought the advice of an electrical contractor, a Deacon in my church, simply because I don't keep up with code, especially subtle changes that may have occurred. There were a couple of things he suggested I do differently from my initial plan because '_the local inspector likes it this way_' even though the way I planned to do it meets code. My friend said he dances around what is sometimes a fine line between code and how the inspectors interpret code. Sometimes he stands his ground and sometimes he just does it the way they want.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I come from the third largest county in Indiana and they have no inspections. When you build there you just need to get the septic, well and location on the lot inspected. In my southern home they inspect everything including speaker wire for the stereo. The workmanship is far better up north. Lots of inspections are a joke. Now don't climb my clock I said "lots" of inspections. 

Al


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Inspectors are human, how you approach them can often affect the result of the inspection. A fellow I worked with did a major DIY reno to his home, he is by nature a "know it all" and seldom hesitates to have the last word. He ended up redoing much of his work over technicalities that likely would have been overlooked had he not been a jerk to the inspectors, he claims those a-holes cost him an extra $10,000.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> Inspectors are human, how you approach them can often affect the result of the inspection. A fellow I worked with did a major DIY reno to his home, he is by nature a "know it all" and seldom hesitates to have the last word. He ended up redoing much of his work over technicalities that likely would have been overlooked had he not been a jerk to the inspectors, he claims those a-holes cost him an extra $10,000.


Hope your not mistaking my words inspection with inspector. The inspections are a joke not the inspector. 

Al


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

"As to the insurance scenario, I've heard this often, and have yet to read about it happening anywhere. Not denying, just stating...... anyone have a reference - post up."

Let "google" be your friend. You will find lots of material on this subject.

George


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> "As to the insurance scenario, I've heard this often, and have yet to read about it happening anywhere. Not denying, just stating...... anyone have a reference - post up."
> 
> Let "google" be your friend. You will find lots of material on this subject.
> 
> George


Google is my friend - many pages talk about the possibility, there is not one case listed where a claim was denied - which is why i asked for specifics....... :confused1:


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

In an average outlet scenario the thought process is that the breaker will trip before the wires burn, given this may be a dedicated plug, to a certain machine you may want to take the machine max amperage in consideration too and size the wire and breaker accordingly, if you plan on running other machines size it accordingly to the larger one or it will trip as you exceed the circuits limit, or go the hillbilly way and overdo it the breaker will never trip if the wire is matched with it instead you are relying on the machines protection only ( if any ).

if memory serves a 14 ga can handle 15 A, 12ga-20A, 10 ga 30A, etc, ( don't quote me I am not sure on the numbers at this time ), either way as a rule of thumb in any circuit in a hard load scenario the weakest component will cook, that is what breakers and fuses are for, but if they are sized larger than any other component in the circuit, that component will cook first and the breaker will not trip.

hope this helps


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## westom (Dec 19, 2014)

ryan50hrl said:


> I know some people have their opinions about wiring....but for 220 saws, up to 3 hp motors can be run safely and effectively on 14 gauge. 5 hp saws need 10 gauge, ...


Opinions are completely irrelevant here. Code is bluntly specific. No opinions should exist. Opinions can only exist if one did not first learn code.

A wall receptacle's shape says how much current that circuit can provide. For example, if a saw needs (has on its power cord) a NEMA 6-20 plug, then that mating receptacle connects to a 20 amp circuit breaker. Does not matter if the saw only draws 12 amps. Its plug defines what a wire between breaker box and receptacle must be.

What is being powered is irrelevant. Its plug says what the circuit must be to power it. If a quarter watt light (0.001 amp load) has a NEMA 6-20 type plug, then that quarter watt (one milliamp) light must be powered by a 20 amp circuit. With wire between breaker and receptacle sized (as defined by code) to provide 20 amps. Rules are that dumb simple. Wall receptacle defines what a wire and connected breaker can provide.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Opinions are completely irrelevant here. Code is bluntly specific. No opinions should exist. Opinions can only exist if one did not first learn code.
> 
> A wall receptacle's shape says how much current that circuit can provide. For example, if a saw needs (has on its power cord) a NEMA 6-20 plug, then that mating receptacle connects to a 20 amp circuit breaker. Does not matter if the saw only draws 12 amps. Its plug defines what a wire between breaker box and receptacle must be.
> 
> What is being powered is irrelevant. Its plug says what the circuit must be to power it. If a quarter watt light (0.001 amp load) has a NEMA 6-20 type plug, then that quarter watt (one milliamp) light must be powered by a 20 amp circuit. With wire between breaker and receptacle sized (as defined by code) to provide 20 amps. Rules are that dumb simple. Wall receptacle defines what a wire and connected breaker can provide.


There's a little more to it than that. Plugs can be changed, done every day. There are certain circuits that can have #12 wire on 30 and 40 amp breakers. A wall receptacle's shape says how much current *maximum* that circuit can provide, as well as the breaker and wiring. Some equipment is shipped from the manufacturer with no plug, and the user selects the appropriate one. This is why a competent electrician should be consulted if one has questions.


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