# Major problems with my new bowl



## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

I want to make something different, so I combined Oak and Bloodwood. The outside is no problem. The inside however has been a major problem. I'm cutting cross grain on the oak and it jams severly. My tools are sharp. I've raised and lowered my tool rest, changed speed, changed the angle of the tool. I'm almost at my wits end here. Perhaps someone can tell by the pics just what I'm doing wrong.































I had to detach from the faceplate to go to other project. Thanks for your comments and direction. Jimmy


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## bigcouger (Jan 4, 2012)

I haven't had that problem an Ive turn different oaks, one thing with different Oaks I found out is if it gets chippy I wind up using water base Lacquer then turn again its slower but the cuts get better. That's my 2 cents


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## wood shavings (Mar 20, 2009)

*options*

Looks like it's time to break out a scraper if you have one. Use a negative rake ( slightly below center with the tool ) Other option if you have or know someone that has a carbide tool with a round cutter high speed light cuts and move the tool at a fairly quick pace but very light cut.

Jerry


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I have turned a segmented bowl which had a ring of bloodwood and a ring of white oak.

The bloodwood is denser and so harder to turn. It is possible the pressure you need to apply to turn the bloodwood results in going deeper is the less dense oak, then jamming/catching.

Do you have any carbide tools to see if they cut better?


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## wood shavings (Mar 20, 2009)

*wood density*

When you have two woods that are different densities you have to find the sweet spot, turning speeds are often faster than you might turn for the softer wood. Think of it this way it's sort of like rounding out a bowl blank go to slow and you get chip out because the tool wants to bounce, turn up the speed and the tear out becomes very little to nonexistent. Same for the situation that you have going on with your bowl.

Jerry


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

durdyolman said:


> My tools are sharp.


You don't say what tools you're using, or what grind you've put on them ... there are so many different profiles.

Can you show us pix of the business end of your bowl gouges and scrapers?


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## dbales (Jun 21, 2011)

I can't lend any advice, but I love that pattern. Almost looks like a woven basket. Hope you figure it out and get it finished up.


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## Tambotie (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi Looking at the photo's and zooming in I dont see that you are cutting cross grain.The rim seems to be long grain and the oak also. When you cut the segments did you rip a few long strips, plane and then cut each one, if so there is no cross grain. Are you cutting from the rim in or from the bottom to the rim,if the latter then that is your problem. Your tool control is letting you down,try rim to bottom. Regards Roger


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

Roger's question first. Yes the segments were ripped then crosscut at 11-1/4 degrees. The inserts were ripped and crosscut also but when they are placed between the segments the end grain is exposed to the tool. I've tried rim to bottom and bottom to rim with pretty much the same results. The worst part is near the bottom, perhaps because the top is moving faster.
Thanks dbales
And for duncsuss, I have a couple pics but the light isn't real good this morning and the flash just makes a mess. The rest on my tool sharpening grinder, 8", is set at 28 degrees, and I ain't moved it in years. I just checked the angle of the grind and by golly it's still 28. Three tools in the pic, the middle is 1/4x1/2 HSS, storebought. The other 2 are home made, from machinist's cobalt cutters. I think I'll crank up the R's some to see what happens. Thanks for your input, folks. I might just learn something.


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## SrGatoGordo (May 15, 2013)

Lots of good comments here. Since your problem is only on the inside of the bowl, I would look at my tool rest. If it is not sturdy enough it will cause a sympathetic vibration and then chips and gouges are inevitable.


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

First reply to Jerry:
Is this something like what you mean? I only have 1 tool to turn this and at 30,000 rpm it can get scary.









Next reply to GatoGordo:
I have had that thought also. The bowl is too deep for my cast iron tool rest, so I had to make 1 a little longer. Beefed it up as much as I could. I use it on the outside sometimes with no problem.


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## wood shavings (Mar 20, 2009)

As far as tools I am refering to a tool like EWT easy wood tool or Mike Hunter, Sorby makes one as well to name a few. Looks like a regular tool but the end has a special carbide tool that can be rotated by loosening an allen set rotating it slightly then retightening when it becomes dull.

Jerry


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

durdyolman said:


> The rest on my tool sharpening grinder, 8", is set at 28 degrees, and I ain't moved it in years.


The pix you posted gave me plenty of information ... first thing I noticed is that you're using scrapers, not bowl gouges, so all my thoughts about "many different grinds" are irrelevant.

My experience (and it's limited, I admit) is that I don't get as clean a finish around the bottom third of the walls when I use a scraper as I do with a freshly sharpened bowl gouge. I haven't figured out how to angle the scraper to get a "shear-scrape" when I'm working that part.

*That said*, I went back to the pictures you posted of the bowl for another look.

Is it my eyes, or does the problem actually start higher up the walls than the oak blocks? It seems there are a couple of "rings" of rough material -- tear out or heel rubbing, not sure which -- running through the bloodwood ... (most visible in the fourth pic in your first post)


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

I took an air hose to the bowl and made some better(?) pics and even color coded the parts. 1st pic shows a gouge in the oak right after the end grain bloodwood as Dave mentioned. Black is face, white is end grain, and red is the edge of the board. I didn't have this trouble with previous bowls of mixed species. tyvm Jimmy


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

I only have 1 bowl gouge and I feel it's too big to get to the bottom of the bowl. BTW what is the best angle for the grind on the bowl gouge? Mine is 45 but some say 75. Sounds a little much to me. tyvm Jimmy


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

durdyolman said:


> I only have 1 bowl gouge and I feel it's too big to get to the bottom of the bowl. BTW what is the best angle for the grind on the bowl gouge? Mine is 45 but some say 75. Sounds a little much to me. tyvm Jimmy


That is big -- so big that I wonder if it really is a bowl gouge, because from what I see in this photo it has more in common with a spindle roughing gouge. (It has the appearance of being made from a piece of flat stock which is bent into a U shape.)

Even if it is a bowl gouge, the fact that it's ground square across the front will make it very difficult to avoid a catch if you use it inside a bowl (or any hollow form). Here's a LINK to Doug Thompson's bowl gouge page -- notice the largest he makes is 3/4" -- which is the diameter of the round bar from which the gouge is made, and the way the grind sweeps back, removing the corners.


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## SGalley (May 12, 2013)

This thing will solve all the worlds problems 











It's the finisher. I hate to promote products but I bought these and use nothing else except a parting tool


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

SGalley said:


> This thing will solve all the worlds problems
> 
> It's the finisher. I hate to promote products but I bought these and use nothing else except a parting tool


LOL ... you're entitled to your opinion, of course. I find carbide-insert tools useful, but not the answer to every challenge


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

duncsuss said:


> That is big -- so big that I wonder if it really is a bowl gouge, because from what I see in this photo it has more in common with a spindle roughing gouge. (It has the appearance of being made from a piece of flat stock which is bent into a U shape.)
> 
> Even if it is a bowl gouge, the fact that it's ground square across the front will make it very difficult to avoid a catch if you use it inside a bowl (or any hollow form). Here's a LINK to Doug Thompson's bowl gouge page -- notice the largest he makes is 3/4" -- which is the diameter of the round bar from which the gouge is made, and the way the grind sweeps back, removing the corners.


I stand corrected dunc, the pictured gouge is NOT a bowl gouge but a roughing gouge. I should not have entered the word "bowl" in my post with the pic of the gouge. I do use it at times for shaping the outside of some bowls, and near the top of some. I have so many irons in the fire right now..Making 5 large bowls for my Mexican neighbor to keep tortillas warm. (3 done, 2 to go) A few folks want bowls and boxes for their animals "remains". Daughter in law wants a Zebrawood recipe box...It goes on...Hard to see what I'm saying with my head in my arse.


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

I know how you feel -- sometimes type a lengthy reply to a question only to realize afterwards they asked something completely different :laughing:

For a spindle roughing gouge -- any angle from 45 degrees down to 30 degrees (more acute, a.k.a. "longer grind") works for me. The longer the grind, the sharper it is -- but it starts to get "grabby" at a certain point and more difficult to control. I haven't measured the angle on mine recently.

For bowl gouges, I have a couple of different grinds that I stick to. Since I use a "fingernail grind" (like the ones in the Doug Thompson link above), the angle at the nose of the tool is not the same as the angle along the wings, and it isn't really the part that does the cutting. I have one at about 75 degrees that I use across the bottom of bowls (since the blunt angle lets me rub the bevel without the shaft hitting the sides of the bowl). For making the entry cut and working up near the rim, I have one at about 50 degrees.


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## Tambotie (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi in the first photo of tools the middle and left scrappers will work. If you have used a hand plane and held it at an angle when planing, it cuts a tad easier on difficult timbers. Try and use the scrapper at an angle so that the bottom left corner rides on the tool rest thus presenting the cutting edge at a 35 - 45 degree or bigger angle to the wood.Keep the scrapper a tad above center so if you do get a catch it will push tool down and away from the work surface this applies to all scrsppers. Remember small cuts and gently. Regards Roger


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## Lilty (Dec 20, 2006)

I think I would try some shear scraping with a fingernail grind bowl gouge.


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

*Never say die!!*

When you put as much work into a project as I have with this one, it's hard to put it in the firewood pile. I agree with SrGato that the tools rest is probably the major problem. The bowl is too deep for my cast iron one and the temporary one I made is too "bouncy", flexing at the banjo. One option was to separate the bowl midway and do the bottom, then put the top half back on. Nah! Beyond my ability. So I decided to go midieval on the rascal, using un-orthodox, hazardous, non-woodworking means. Jokingly I posted a pic of some "burrs" (rotory files) when someone asked if I had a burr. Then I thought WTH and gave it a shot with the 30k rpm mini router. After getting the drag right and the bouncing around under control I managed to get the gouged portions flattened out. Then the drill with the sanding pad (1000 rpm) got the bottom pretty good. The small sanding pads finished it up. Hand sanded 60-220, #0000 steel wool, three coats of poly, burnished with a handful of shavings.
Thanks for reading. Jimmy


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## durdyolman (Mar 22, 2013)

*Supplemental*

Finished bowl. Jimmy
.
.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Good save. Nice looking bowl. :thumbsup:

I have had to resort to sanding to fix some of my turnings. The latest was a 12in cherry platter. Sharpened the tools, took light passes, but once I had the waves going, it was hard to remove with the turning tools. At least easy access for the ROS with a platter. I did learn to not power the lathe and use the ROS, since the discs are not built for the shear stress. :thumbdown:


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

durdyolman said:


> . . . too "bouncy", flexing at the banjo.


Those outback banjo players have something missing. You got to watch out for them and stay away or there will be a "Deliverance." 

This is coming from a banjo playing county boy. Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk. Did you get that tune? Okay, it's hard to hear a tune using words. Try dueling banjos. Yes, that's the one. LOL 

You got to be careful of those banjos

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

vursenbach said:


> Those outback banjo players have something missing. You got to watch out for them and stay away or there will be a "Deliverance."
> 
> This is coming from a banjo playing county boy. Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk. Did you get that tune? Okay, it's hard to hear a tune using words. Try dueling banjos. Yes, that's the one. LOL
> 
> ...


:laughing:You missed a couple of plunks! :laughing:


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

vursenbach said:


> Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk, Plunk.


Nobody would get it from that. It goes:

Plunk, plunk, plink, plunk, plink, plunk, plink, plunk, plunk.

:laughing:


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

durdyolman said:


> Finished bowl. Jimmy


Jimmy, that looks great -- I know it was a pain in the rear, but the result should make you happy :thumbsup:


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## vursenbach (Apr 11, 2012)

I can still pick my banjo between 200 & 300 picks per min. Plunk, plunk, plunk goes real fast at that picking. I don't know if it is plunk, dum, pick, or something else. It just sounds like music to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## bigcouger (Jan 4, 2012)

Outstanding save, good looking bowl :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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