# Latest rust bucket planes



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Today I stopped by a local "antique and collector" store, more like a permanent flea market. I wanted to see if they had any new old hand planes.

I picked up two planes which were in the worst shape. A total of $10 for the pair. Perhaps I paid too much, but not worth the haggling.

This one says "SARGENT" on the lever cap. The casting has "MADE IN USA". Otherwise no markings. The frog appears fixed into the casting. I will not be able to confirm until I take this apart.
Likely a Sargent low cost version of the equivalent of a Stanley #3.









This one is a Stanley Bailey.
The casting has Bailey on the front of the knob and MADE IN USA behind the knob. There is the knob support ring.

The back of the casting has No 5. No patent dates.

The lever cap has the kidney shaped hole.









In a separate thread Mengtian and Chris Curl expressed interest in a Sargent 3416 transational plane. I think I would like to send this onto Chris.

Mengtian does not have a No 3, either Stanley or Sargent, so I will give you first refusal on the Sargent.

Kevin K mentioned he was looking for a No 5. I will give you first refusal on the No 5.

Please decide based on these pictures taken as soon as I got home.

I will update the thread as the restorations proceed. No problems if you want to pass, but if you do, then I will make the final planes available to others.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Dave! It looks like you have your work cut out for you yet again. I can't wait to see how they clean up!

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm interested in a no 5 as well at some point should you have one you are willing to part with.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Starting the restore on the Sargent*

I have just taken the Sargent apart.

Good news is that all the screws came loose without any issues.

The frog does adjust. It just does not have the adjusting screw from the back.

The rust was more superficial than it looked. I removed a lot of the rust with wet-dry paper to save the Evapo-Rust.

The iron shows "SARGENT" No 408" on the blade. This may be a Sargent Smooth plane. I appreciate if anyone can provide more information.

The cap iron appears to be chrome plated. This was a surprise.

The lever cap was nickel plated. Not sure where the odd colour comes from.

All the steel components are now in the Evapo-Rust for overnight soaking.

The knob and tote are not cracked, but will need to at least be sanded and refinished. Once I get to sanding I will determine if they are usable or need to be replaced.

I will work on the Sargent and get this restored before working on the No 5.

Stay tuned for more updates.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Dave, In case you don't already have these, here are a couple of links for a little more info on Sargent planes. The first is a link to a "The Sargent Planes Page" which has a listing of Model numbers and production dates but not much else. The author of the site says he plans to include lots more info, but I've had the site bookmarked for a year or so and nothing seems to have been added.

http://www.sargent-planes.com/

According to the site, the 408 planes were manufactured from 1887 to 1950.

The second link is a link to a Sargent Hand Plane forum. It only has about 10 threads in the last year, but one of them was only a week ago so there may be some knowledgeable people there to answer questions.

http://www.handplaneforums.com/viewforum.php?f=4 

I don't think there is a web resource out there that compares to those for SB planes or if there is I haven't found it yet.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

trc65 said:


> Dave, In case you don't already have these, here are a couple of links for a little more info on Sargent planes. The first is a link to a "The Sargent Planes Page" which has a listing of Model numbers and production dates but not much else. The author of the site says he plans to include lots more info, but I've had the site bookmarked for a year or so and nothing seems to have been added.
> 
> http://www.sargent-planes.com/
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. I had visited the first link which told me "408" was a smoothing plane. I did not know the second link, but a search for "408" did not turn up much.

The Stanley-Bailey planes do have a rich amount of sites and very detailed information. I know Sargent was a well known plane manufacturer for a long time, but it is not easy to find equivalent information.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

do you use evapo-rust pretty much for all your plane restoration projects?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks Dave! Do you have a thread that teaches us how you restore them? They come out so beautiful that I'd like to do the same on mine.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> Thanks Dave! Do you have a thread that teaches us how you restore them? They come out so beautiful that I'd like to do the same on mine.


I have one thread, but really just documenting my progress.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/latest-rust-bucket-plane-43433/

TimeTestedTools (Don) has a better tutorial.

http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/bench-plane-restore-the-dw-way/

The process is not magic, just a series of steps.

The rust removal can be Evapo-Rust, or good old wet-dry paper and water or e.g. WD-40 for the fluid.

Lapping the sole is easy if you have a flat reference surface. Another example of using wet-dry paper.

I have only done a handful of restorations, but the common aspect is that the blades were previously sharpened by a person who did not know what they were doing.

Today's Sargent is no different. A bad job free hand on a grinding wheel. I will be able to fix, but it is sad to see another botched sharpening.

I am not seeing new challenges in this restore, just the normal steps.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Those will be nice, David. Nice of you to help the new guys, too :thumbup:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

most antique stores in my area don't carry vintage tools. when asked why, they usually say they don't know enough about them to know what they are worth, or there is no interest in them.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Castings after cleaning*

I have cleaned up both planes.

The Sargent 408 body looks like I just painted it but this is how it came out of the Evapo-Rust. I was pleasantly surprised. The blade either was either never sharpened or was sharpened correctly. The edge was dull and worn in the middle from wear and some pitting from the rust, but this was removed by re-sharpening.

The Stanley No 5 is another story. The casting is intact, no cracks or dings or pitting, but the jappaning looks very sad. I think this is a candidate for removing the jappaning back to clean metal and painting.

I am open to suggestions if the No 5 jappaning can somehow be saved.

If I need to remove the remains of the jappaning, does this need sand blasting or will normal paint removers work?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't think the japanning is that bad, but if you want to remove the japanning electrolysis will do it.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

On closer inspection I noticed some bubbling in areas. I tried the old thumbnail to see if anything would come off, and sure enough the thumbnail was able to pop some areas.

I then tried a flat blade screwdriver and more areas flaked off.

After only a few minutes of scraping it turns out the area under the frog and the left side of the tote mount are stable. The rest came off too easy.

Either the jappaning at the factory was not good, or the environment over the decades made it decay. Likely the latter.

So it looks like I will be painting my first hand plane casting. :icon_smile:


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

I accidentally bought a number 5 on ebay because of this thread.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mavawreck said:


> I accidentally bought a number 5 on ebay because of this thread.


I hope you are happy with the plane. I also hope this is a tongue in cheek post. :laughing:


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

Dave Paine said:


> I hope you are happy with the plane. I also hope this is a tongue in cheek post. :laughing:


Most definitely! I've wanted one for awhile which this thread reminded me of, then looked at no less than 5 over the weekend and wasn't able to come to a point where I was comfortable with the price for the condition on any of them. 

So I won this one, felt like it would be a good user with a bit of work. If not for shipping, the price would be perfect. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sta...3Mgjx5C4k+Ns1iNIWqducrU=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Not to take away from your thread! It just inspired me to take on a much smaller project and order a set of sharpening stones. Thanks!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mavawreck said:


> Most definitely! I've wanted one for awhile which this thread reminded me of, then looked at no less than 5 over the weekend and wasn't able to come to a point where I was comfortable with the price for the condition on any of them.
> 
> So I won this one, felt like it would be a good user with a bit of work. If not for shipping, the price would be perfect.
> 
> ...


I think this will restore and be a good user plane.

I think the adjuster knob looks to be rubber. I read this happened about WWII due to brass and other metals being needed for the war effort.

You can leave this or replace, depending on how you want to use the plane.

I am happy if my thread inspired you to get your own vintage plane.

This is a good example of how we share our wood working interests.


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm going to do a simple clean and go on that one, looking forward to using it. 

This 20" Birmingham transitional though, I have no clue what I am going to do with. :laughing:


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

Dave Paine said:


> I think the adjuster knob looks to be rubber. I read this happened about WWII due to brass and other metals being needed for the war effort.


Arrived today, I believe you to be absolutely correct. 

Hows progress on the rust buckets?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

mavawreck said:


> Arrived today, I believe you to be absolutely correct.
> 
> Hows progress on the rust buckets?


Thanks for asking.

I have cleaned up the components of the Sargent 408 and the Stanley No 5.

The Stanley needs a replacement Y lever and toe screw for the tote. I purchased a parts plane for these, separate thread, since it had a strange casting. The jappaning mostly flaked off. The small area which did not flake will need to be sand blasted and I will then re-paint with Dupli-Color Engine Enamel DUPDE1635 Ford Semi Gloss Black spray paint as recommended by TimeTestedTools and others.

Concentrating on the Sargent 408 for the moment.
Today I finished the new tote. I had turned a new knob a few days ago. The originals are in bad shape, and likely to break during use.

I just applied Tru-Oil to the new tote and knob and am awaiting this to dry.

I have sharpened the blade, just dull from normal wear.

I am about to take comparison shots of the old and new tote and knob and some "after" pictures of the Sargent and will post in a later message this evening.

This will be a very nice user plane.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Sargent 408 after restoration*

For those who like to see the "after" pictures of a restoration. I am happy with how this turned out.

The tote was not yet broken but the wood was dry and would likely have cracked during use.

Replaced with a piece of walnut finished in Tru-Oil. The original had a large slot which goes over a small nib on the casting. I decided to drill a small hole to match the nib. Likely a manufacturing time saving, but results in a loose fit for the handle since no toe screw.









The knob was in worse shape, you can see the line of a crack on this side. Replaced by walnut finished in Tru-Oil. I did not have a single piece for the tote and knob, hence the grain pattern differences.

This piece has a small knot which I was hoping to include. Filled with CA glue to stabilize. The knob would not stay put so not able to show the knot in this image.

I wanted my replacement to be a bit thicker in the hopes of being stronger for use.









The restored metal components. I was pleasantly surprised that the jappaning is completely intact. No flakes or damage over the years. It looked so good when it came out of the Evapo-Rust.

You can just make out "408" on the backside of the lever cap. Also stamped on the frog.

The adjustment knob looks like chromed steel. This is how it came out of the Evapo-Rust.

This model does not have a frog adjustment screw. I missed this feature from my Stanley's. I know the frog is a one-time setting, but it did take a little longer than on the Stanley's.









Everything assembled. Drum roll please. 
The almost-looks-as-good-as-new Sargent 408. Looking all spruced up and ready for use. :icon_biggrin:









I like to have a side-by-side picture of the before and after, so this was the before. Pretty sad shape. Not much hint of the beauty which was hidden under the rust and grime.









This was another fun project. It does feel good to have rescued a rust bucket and given it a second life.

Posting in the hope this can inspire others to be willing to look beyond the rust and take a chance on giving some old iron a second life.

Thanks for looking.


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Dave, your restores are excellent. The sargent looks sweet. But you know we're going to need some action shots!

You may already know this, but for those who may not, not all stanleys have the frog adjuster screw. That came out in type 10. And some sargent do have it. The ones with the frog adjuster are more like a bedrock type setting and are numbered 1 - 24. These are fairly rare and if you find one and don't want it, I DO 

Here is one http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/the-sargent-15-shaw-patent/


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Paint and varnish stripper will remove the Japanning.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

timetestedtools said:


> Dave, your restores are excellent. The sargent looks sweet. But you know we're going to need some action shots!
> 
> You may already know this, but for those who may not, not all stanleys have the frog adjuster screw. That came out in type 10. And some sargent do have it. The ones with the frog adjuster are more like a bedrock type setting and are numbered 1 - 24. These are fairly rare and if you find one and don't want it, I DO
> 
> Here is one http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/the-sargent-15-shaw-patent/


Don, thanks, coming from you I consider this praise indeed. I am just trying to do my best.

I was going to take an action shot, tried out on my test piece of softwood and the plane was awful.

For the readers new to hand plane, there is more than sharpening the blade in order to get a hand plane to cut.

I normally set the cap iron as close to the blade edge, since this normally improves cutting ability.

In this case I had to move the cap iron back from the edge to be 1/32 or so from the edge. Now, voila, nice fluffy shaving.

When I first started to use hand planes, I did not appreciate how much the cap iron is integral to the design in order to get decent cutting.

I normally test on a piece of softwood, since if I cannot get the plane to cut on a soft species, I will have no luck on hard wood species.

The plane and the test piece. What I cannot convey in the picture is how smooth the surface feels. It feels like it has been sanded.









Detail of the shavings. With this test piece I expected to be able to get thin and consistent shavings. Nice fluffy shavings. Ready for use. :thumbsup:









Now onto the Stanley No 5. My friend was willing to sand blast this for me to remove the last of the jappaning. I would have used paint stripper, etc, but the sand blasting really makes the casting look good, especially in the lettering.

Now ready for painting.









I did find a casting defect. A small hole next to the right side frog mounting screw hole. The camera did not focus where I wanted it, but the out of focus small hole can be seen.









I wonder how many castings have such defects. Likely a gas bubble. I wonder how many are covered over by the jappaning.

Thanks for looking.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Painting the No 5 casting and frog*

After the sandblasting, painting with Dupli-Color Engine Enamel Ford Semi-Gloss, recommended by timetestedtools.

This is very easy to apply. Goes directly on bare metal, so no primer needed.

The directions mention apply several coats each within 10-15 minutes and overall less than 1 hour.

Masking the casting was time consuming but worthwhile.

I did get to use my new can of Kroil rust penetrant to allow me to remove the screw for the adjustment nut.

All screw holes were plugged with tissue.

The picture does not show up as well as I hoped. The casting looks terrific.









I removed the pin and broken Y lever from the frog.









Next step is to sand the tote and knob to determine if they are worth re-using. Stay tuned.

Thanks for looking.


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Lookin good Dave!!


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

You really do a very beautiful job on these.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Thanks for the comments guys.

I am happy to bring these back to life.

I have to say, Timetestedtools has some restores which make these pale by comparison. I have read through parts of his blog. :thumbsup:

I do not try to compete with anyone, just trying to bring out the best in some old iron. :smile:


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## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

Wow Dave those look awesome!
I have been bit by the hand tool bug and been searching for a few planes. After pricing the new stuff and then crusing ebay I thought I would try to buy some old iron and restore. So then I started search this site to see some restores and learn a bit, found this thread and let me say thanks for your efforts to share. 
I scored a Bailey #5 and thought it was in rough shape, hoping to get it usable. By the way it is no where close to as bad as this #5 started out. After seeing what you have done I think I can get mine decent. But even with a head start I won't be able to make it look as good as yours. Hope to have it in a few days and will post pics of the restore. and I might have a question or two for you hand tool guys.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

preacherman said:


> I scored a Bailey #5 and thought it was in rough shape, hoping to get it usable. By the way it is no where close to as bad as this #5 started out. After seeing what you have done I think I can get mine decent. But even with a head start I won't be able to make it look as good as yours. Hope to have it in a few days and will post pics of the restore. and I might have a question or two for you hand tool guys.


I am happy if the thread helps others, that is the intent.

Lots of forum members happy to help with questions. We also like to see old iron brought back to life. If the casting is not cracked it should be easy to get this working. Some people can weld and fix a cracked casting. I do not - yet, have weld equipment. :thumbsup:

EricD has a thread about using oxalic acid, aka wood bleach instead of Evapo-Rust. It is less expensive and does a good job.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/oxalic-acid-rust-removal-old-plane-restoration-47268/

Another plane restore thread which includes a link to Timetestedtools (Don) blog on hand plane restoration. Well worth reading.

here is my complete restoration blog. http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com...re-the-dw-way/

Dominick has a good thread on using electrolysis. Within the thread is a useful video. Only consider this for parts where you want to remove the jappaning, the paint coating. Also only for iron or steel.

Removing rust with electrolysis.


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## EricD (Jan 17, 2013)

Dave, very nice results and great explanation. I am inspired to find a rust bucket plane a see how well I can do. You are the benchmark!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

EricD said:


> Dave, very nice results and great explanation. I am inspired to find a rust bucket plane a see how well I can do. You are the benchmark!


Thanks, I will be very happy if the thread inspires someone to take pity on a rust bucket and bring it back to a second life. :thumbsup:


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Thanks Dave for using me as an example. I really haven't followed this thread just for the simple fact I didn't realize the work involved until I started on my DP. I had no interest because of that. Now I do and wished I had before. You did a Great job Dave.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

i just won an auction on ebay for 6 planes, all of which will be restored. then i will sell the ones i don't need, and pay dave's earlier generosity forward.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> i just won an auction on ebay for 6 planes, all of which will be restored. then i will sell the ones i don't need, and pay dave's earlier generosity forward.


Woo hoo, sounds good. :clap:

I am eager to see the future restore threads. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Dave Paine said:


> Woo hoo, sounds good. :clap:
> 
> I am eager to see the future restore threads. :thumbsup:


no worries there, i will definately start one.

EDIT: i was wrong, there are actualy 7 planes in the lot!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*The No 5 after the restore*

I finally got the parts I needed to be able to complete the No 5 restore so now I can post the final restoration pictures.

For once, the tote and knob were in good condition. I just needed to remove the old finish and apply a new finish.

I decided to use Tru-Oil.

This is the tote, nice colour.









This is the knob, very dark wood, perhaps rosewood. Two for one. The knob and closeup of the nice fluffy shavings the plane is making.









Rear view. The Y lever was broken, the adjustment wheel was damaged so I replaced. Looking good.









The front view. I had to replace the blade from a recent parts plane. The back of the original was badly pitted. If I were to remove enough metal so that the edge would not have indentations from the pitting, I would have lost all the hardened portion. Drat, cannot salvage everything all the time.









The before front view for side by side comparison.









I am pretty pleased with how this turned out. My first restore where I was held up due to needing to purchase parts planes to get the needed parts.

Thanks for looking.

Now back to round 3. The Stanley No 4 needs a new tote.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

That's one hell of a job Dave. You really brought it back to life. Nice curls, nice resto.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Dominick said:


> That's one hell of a job Dave. You really brought it back to life. Nice curls, nice resto.


Thanks, it is very satisfying to get these back in shape. :thumbsup:


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Dave Paine said:


> Thanks, it is very satisfying to get these back in shape. :thumbsup:


I know the feeling. Lol


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Dominick said:


> I know the feeling. Lol


Yes, you had a lot more work into your drill press restoration.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Not to go off topic but I'm far from a professional restorer. Still waiting to see uncle at his shop.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Dominick said:


> Not to go off topic but I'm far from a professional restorer. Still waiting to see uncle at his shop.


That makes two of us. :laughing:

Fingers crossed your uncle can fix or make another shaft. :icon_smile:


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Dave, you have really outdone yourself this time. That plane looks like new and, judging by the curls, cuts pretty well to boot! You can be modest all you want, that is some top notch restoration work for a very noble cause. A quality tool that has already survived countless decades is now ready to be used for countless more. It is a tribute to the original craftsmanship that went into the design and manufacturing, as well as an homage to the woodworkers that this tool has served through the years. Maybe I am just romanticising the whole process a little, but I maintain that you are doing god's work.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words.

This is the first one I have painted. I think the paint helps to give it the almost new look.

I do like seeing the side-by-side before and after pictures.

I am very pleased at how both of these came out.

I have new favourites - perhaps until the next restoration. :laughing:


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## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

nice job Dave.


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## jholly (Jan 5, 2013)

beautiful plane. super job!


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