# Accuracy in cuts.. Makita LS0815F and LS1018



## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

Several months ago I purchased a 12 inch Ridgid sliding compound miter saw and after getting things set up, squared away, etc I am fairly pleased with it. By the way I am a casual woodworker, not one who does it often for either hobby or craft. But I do like having good tools for those times when needed.

I am in process of building a cabinet/shelves for some collectibles and discovered my Ridgid saw overall works well BUT it is not super precise for smaller cuts (could be user error I realize).

I was thinking about buying a Dewalt DW713 10 inch miter saw thinking it would be more precise for smaller cuts, plus the smaller blades would be a little cheaper. But the 45 degree miters are so restrictive (essentially a 1 x 4 ). Along the way I started reading about a now discontinued 7 1/2 inch makita slider that led me to the above referenced 8 1/2 inch Makita.

I am ok with the $350 price point but curious about the overall accuracy of the saw given it is a slider. I was hoping the smaller blade would help with giving me more precision. Downsides of course are finding 8 1/2 inch blades.

If the blade does not move side to side while sliding (my Ridgid has some horizontal deflection and I have to be careful during long slides) this saw may work.

The LS1018 is mentioned only because it seems to be a 10 inch version of the same/similar saw and priced about the same. 

This is the maximum I plan to pay for another saw. I had considered the Ridgid 4513 table saw but really wanting to stay clear of a small tabled saw. Very curious to hear first hand experience with the Makitas and whether or not I should just save the money and buy the DeWalt DW713 regular chop saw instead. Thx John


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I can tell you from experience that the smaller the saw does not mean the more accurate the cut in smaller pieces. It may be safer, but definitely not more accurate. Those 7 1/4 slider MS's are pretty much marketed towards homeowners who would occasionally make 90* crosscuts instead of using a handsaw. Most would probably not ever make a miter much less anything else. 

I would wager theres more than likely something wrong with your saw or blade. A friend has the same saw and uses it specifically for trim so Id imagine its fairly decent. How much off are your cuts?


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

Chamfer said:


> I can tell you from experience that the smaller the saw does not mean the more accurate the cut in smaller pieces. It may be safer, but definitely not more accurate. Those 7 1/4 slider MS's are pretty much marketed towards homeowners who would occasionally make 90* crosscuts instead of using a handsaw. Most would probably not ever make a miter much less anything else.
> 
> I would wager theres more than likely something wrong with your saw or blade. A friend has the same saw and uses it specifically for trim so Id imagine its fairly decent. How much off are your cuts?


Thanks for the reply. For short cuts it does okay in reality. And I will admit for trim work I do need abetter blade. I am still using the original blade and while decent for cutting wood say for stair treads, etc. it does give me a fair amount of tear out. I may try a blade upgrade first.

Where I do see some out of square cuts are when I slide cut a much larger piece (say > 10 inches) and I have to be very careful with the extended handle when pushing inward to keep the cut line square. There is just a subtle deflection in the head assembly (and I have seen this in various stores with other sliders). It isn't far off and certainly good enough for anything being painted (like baseboards, etc).

But I am about to build a display case using walnut for some collectibles I have and it will be in memory for my dad. I really cannot afford to screw up any of the cuts and when building a prototype using pine I realized I was using an elephant to pull a sled. The saw just felt huge compared to the wood size.

I can see where a smaller saw would be 'safer" and why people on job sites would appreciate their smaller size and weight. I had read about blade deflection on larger blades causing some level of precision degradation. Some of what I am discussing may well be skill level as well. This is not my primary hobby. Those who golf or play tennis know too well a great golfer will still out play them even if using hand me down Goodwill golf clubs.

In my prototype (which proved it was a bad design) I just lacked some of the fit and finish I would prefer. My new design version should eliminate most of that but I couldn't help but wonder if a smaller saw wouldn't afford cleaner cuts in trim pieces. If not then another saw would just be a waste and perhaps a new blade for existing saw is where I should start.

I was glancing today at a DeWalt DW713 and could not help but notice there is no lateral movement in the head. of course it also does not slide. Which is why I questioned if in general sliders are inherently more prone to slight movement. John


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Jdavis37 said:


> The LS1018 is mentioned only because it seems to be a 10 inch version of the same/similar saw and priced about the same.
> 
> Thx John


I have an OLD LS101 (almost same as above). 

It is a bad ass saw and has done a PILE of work for me (stairways mostly and LOTS of oak treads and such). I have gone through a small pile of blades with it over they years and it keeps on rocking with minimal maintenance. I would not hesitate to grab another if I needed one... :yes:

I can cause deflection in mine if I want it. Sometimes this is a good thing... :yes: With a good blade and even pressure I can also get little to no deflection if needed for the particular cut.

The baby version would be awesome to have for jumping out of the van and being able to quickly and easily get setup on the jobsite for small stuff like shoe moulding. Lighter than the 10" version for sure... I would buy one if the price was right but I would be well aware of its limitations and intended purposes. :smile:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Jdavis37 said:


> Which is why I questioned if in general sliders are inherently more prone to slight movement. John


Yes but sometimes you may WANT that in a saw.

If you need 'rock solid' then look for an old Rockwell. :thumbsup: 

You mentioned doing stair treads. With MY Makita - If I scribe a very fine line on the tread where it bumps the wall side skirtboard - Even if the skirtboard has a very slight *** to it - I can still pull or push on the handle in the direction I want the blade to go and perfectly cut the not-so-straight line to a certain extent. (intentionally causing deflection in the assembly to alter the path the blade cuts) 

I can easily pull or push my way a fat 32nd to the left or right at the full 12" of cut if I choose to. For anything close to or above a 16th - I have to adjust the saw or the workpiece. 

The 10" Makita you mentioned above slides on *two* rails vs my OLD 10" Makita that slides on only one rail at the bottom. Yours 'might' be a bit more rigid than mine but I bet it is not by very much. I have no issues getting that same slight bit of deflection out of our Hitachis (similar double arm design as the one you mentioned) when I want it.

With a good blade and an even hand you can get great results with a slider. :smile:


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Yes but sometimes you may WANT that in a saw.
> 
> If you need 'rock solid' then look for an old Rockwell. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the replies. My Ridgid saw has 2 sliders and I certainly would not call it "loose" in the end when fully slid outward. I compared it to several other saws prior to making the purchase and found it to be toward the better end regarding that aspect.

Plan 1 is to buy a new blade. I need to get rid of the tear out for any fine work I'll be doing. For point of reference in this display piece I will be building none of my wood will be > 4.75 inches wide. So I do not need a large 12 inch sliding saw for this particular project and may consider the old Hitachi non slider I stil have that I have been too lazy to find a home for.

The prototype case I recently built was a very small model of what the real would have been and that was where I saw some slight deviations in the cuts. Of course it may have just been me, or partially due to the blade. But the Ridgid saw is huge when working with smaller pieces of wood. That was what drew me to the 8 1/2 inch saw.

Think in terms of making a picture frame and asking what saw would I use for that? Something where the fit and finish needs to be precise, and the wood being cut is fairly small.

I was thinking at $347 the 8 1/2 inch Makita might offer some versatility my larger Ridgid doesn't have and might be easier when cutting smaller wood. Of course I may have just been thinking erroneously! It could just be me!


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Jdavis37 said:


> Think in terms of making a picture frame and asking what saw would I use for that? Something where the fit and finish needs to be precise, and the wood being cut is fairly small.
> 
> I was thinking at $347 the 8 1/2 inch Makita might offer some versatility my larger Ridgid doesn't have and might be easier when cutting smaller wood. Of course I may have just been thinking erroneously! It could just be me!


I think that saw would serve you well for that. :yes:


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

OnealWoodworking said:


> I think that saw would serve you well for that. :yes:


OneReal...... I had just about talked myself out of another saw purchase and then saw your comment  Intuitively it seems like a smaller saw would be easier to use when cutting smaller wood.

By the way I did not buy the Ridgid blindly! I needed cutting capacity approaching needing a table saw ( 12.5 inch wide wood) but do not have room or desire to own a table saw at the moment though ripping capacity would really be nice at times. It was bought to replace my 12 inch non sliding Hitachi miter saw, and overall I have been pleased with it.

But when I started this case project and decided to pay myself to build my own, I realized quickly for detailed smaller work the Ridgid feels like an elephant on a tricycle.

But a new blade may help, preferably a thinner kerf for this purpose. Or just say what the heck and buy the small Makita slider from Amazon. Return policies are good if the saw fails to impress me, and I already have a stand to put it on.

Of course the 10 inch non sliding DeWalt is about $150 cheaper and while less versatile than the 8.5 inch Makita slider it may be more cost effective and 10 inch blades are easier to find!


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Jdavis37 said:


> By the way I did not buy the Ridgid blindly! I needed cutting capacity approaching needing a table saw ( 12.5 inch wide wood) but do not have room or desire to own a table saw at the moment


You can cut a *lot* more than 12" with the Makita by either lifting the material up or flipping it around and cutting from the other side. Depends on the angles you need what you do but 12" is NOT the max in most cases.


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

OnealWoodworking said:


> You can cut a *lot* more than 12" with the Makita by either lifting the material up or flipping it around and cutting from the other side. Depends on the angles you need what you do but 12" is NOT the max in most cases.


At the time I purchased the Ridgid I only had the 12 inch non sliding Hitachi saw. I really liked the Makita 1216L saw overall, and nearly decided to buy it. But given my usage amount, the $900 purchase for it and a collapsible stand just made me say no,

I bought the Ridgid + stand (which actually works very well) for $499. The Ridgid will cut a 13 inch wide board in a single cut, and you can get more than that if you use a sacrificial board underneath. The Makita would cut a little wider ( 15 inches I think if memory serves me ) as would the DeWalt DW780. The 780 was $599 with stand (on wheels). But every 780 I tested in the big box stores had very resistant sliders and so I ruled it out (but I did like the light mechanism it used versus a laser). Laser on my Ridgid is mostly worthless to me.

No regrets on the Ridgid.. good tool at a good price. No doubt a new blade will help it. But I am still interested in having a smaller saw for times when portability might be an issue and more importantly when cutting smaller wood where a little more precision is called for.

The more I think this through the 10 inch DeWalt non sliding miter saw at $200 may be a viable option. The Makita sliding 8 1/2 is very versatile but if I truly need the wider cutting capacity I have the Ridgid. DeWalt + new blade for about $300. And the worst of things is no one actually carries the makitas in store to see before buying.


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

If you simply lock your Ridgid from sliding, and use it as a 'chop' saw only, I doubt that would be significantly different than a 10" DeWalt non-slider. It's sounds to me like you'd just be buying more of what you already have. Most of the error in a slider is when it is fully extended, because that's where the flex is.

For small picture frames and such, maybe just a hand saw and a miter box might be the way to go.

Really, though, if you want the best precision I'd go with a table saw. It will cut small stuff just fine, and will have a lot more precision and versatility than a miter saw. After I got my table saw, I haven't even used my miter saw. Furthermore, the table saw will be significantly different than what you already have, you can do long rips with it and other things that your miter saw can't do. And, you can get a used table saw for $200-$300.

The miter saw is great if you need portability, but if that isn't a top-priority, I'd recommend a table saw.


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

pweller said:


> If you simply lock your Ridgid from sliding, and use it as a 'chop' saw only, I doubt that would be significantly different than a 10" DeWalt non-slider. It's sounds to me like you'd just be buying more of what you already have. Most of the error in a slider is when it is fully extended, because that's where the flex is.
> 
> For small picture frames and such, maybe just a hand saw and a miter box might be the way to go.
> 
> ...


Point well taken about the "more of the same" in regards to the 10 inch non sliding saw.

The hand saw and miter box I will take a pass on. I'm spoiled.. I like fast miter saw cuts!

As far as table saws and what I am wiling to spend, things get tricky fast. First, I have too many other hobbies and expenses that come before tools. Mind you I do enjoy tools and love the smell of cutting wood. But, two, I do not have room in my garage for a full sized table saw such as the hybrid style $500 type saw. For lack of better comparison something like the Ridgid R4512 sized saw. I had considered a portable table saw such as the $599 Bosch or the newly priced $399 Ridgid. But then you get into accessories needed to help preserve fingers, or sleds, etc and the price grows. Not to mention the size of a portable saw table is small. Good for ripping long lumber but poor as heck for plywood.

I'll give this more thought as you do raise good points. A table saw can take on the cuts my Ridgid Miter saw cannot, and it can also do a good job with small wood miter cuts if desired. Still, I would prefer a shop table saw and not a portable unit for job site cuts but I simply do no thave the room for such.

I think at this point my first move will be to replace the blade on my Ridgid and see how things go afterwards. Cutting more smoothly and with less tear out will be good.

Table saw remains an option but most likely would be the $399 Ridgid. Local HD still has the older saw version (R4510 and not R4513). 

The smaller DeWalt has been ruled out for reasons mentioned.

The 8 1/2 inch Makita slider still remains on the table mostly "because". The smaller size and weight has some advantages and might be nice to have the smaller saw set up for smaller cuts, going with an 80 or more tooth blade while staying with a higher quality 60T for the bigger Ridgid.

If the table saw comes back into play the small miter is out. Have to admit I do have some degree of loss of finger fears related to using a small table saw for rippiing wood!


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

Your posts have me re-considering the table saw option. I visited a few sites and saw some interesting miter gauges/sleds (made by Inca for example) which claimed to provide a great deal of accuracy in the cuts (assuming of course saw blade is properly set up). Am curious how accurate/precise one can expect a smaller table saw such as the Ridgid R4510/4513 or Bosch 4100 would be using such a mitering device?

Everyone's comments thus far have been very appreciated and helpful. Anything that helps me think past myself is always good! I do not have a great deal of experience with table saws and do not have room for a larger more permanent shop type saw like I would prefer if I went that direction.

But if a small table saw can provide really precise cuts using a miter gauge/sled then it would make much more sense going that direction given the other benefits such as ripping longer pieces of wood.

I had seen the 8.5 inch Makita as something that could be set up with an 80 tooth blade mostly for fine work/precision compared to my Ridgid which would end up with a full kerf 60T blade. But I do see the redundancy here (versus changing blades).

I do not do a ton of wood work but do believe in buying decent quality items that will hopefully last me a long while. I would never target Festool because for me it would be a waste of money given my usage factor and my skill level probably would not do it justice. 

Lastly, any recommendations for a nice blade for my Ridgid? I don't want to spend the price that Forrest wants for their blades so would prefer it to be something less than that but still much better than my stock blade now. Thx John


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

I can surely understand the issues of space, as even a contractor type table saw takes up a fair bit of space, especially relative to how often it is used.

I saw one guy who put hinges on the wings of his Craftsman contractor saw - that was pretty clever.

There's one popular guy on youtube who built a pretty fancy, portable, workbench. He had a way to insert a smaller table saw into his workbench, basically to expand the usable table top space. That's the only concern with smaller table saws, is that the table top to support your work is kind of small. Just found it, he's a got a lot of other videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N7RlWHaFbE

With your issue, I sort of envisioned something like the Paulk workbench (maybe smaller), with a portable table saw maybe permanently mounted, that you could remove the legs and store vertically against the wall. This would give you good table space, and not take up too much floor space.


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks again for the reply and information. Now THAT is some construction piece!

Most times when I start getting into woodworking thoughts I start to realize, like any hobby, the commitment it takes to get good at things. My brother (4 hours away) at one time had gotten very serious into woodworking but think that has died back a bit for him.

But I am also realizing costs can add up quickly (saw, replacement miter gauge, and I'd like a decent doweling jig in addition to the pocket screw device I am expecting to arrive tomorrow.

I need to get off my arse and order a replacement blad for my current Ridgid and see how that goes. Cheapest simplest option to try and in truth I need abetter blade before I cut any walnut or cherry as this blade has a lot of tear out.

At the very least thus far I have ruled out a few things. Mentally I am tempted by the smaller miter saw without much supporting fact behind it. Most likely means I'll get over the desire to buy it. Table saw remains an option though it can be bought later if new blade on current miter saw gives better performance. I don't foresee any need to rip cut anything unless the 2 x 4 section of plywood I buy isn't very square. In a worst case I could devise a cutting rail and use circular saw.

If I decide to live with partially visible pocket holes (on underside of shelves) I can forego the dowel jig. Of course all this in reference to the current project and not long term aspects.

The smaller saw is seductive for whatever reason but some form of table saw (if I purchase) does make more sense, especially given with a well made miter gauge it can do very precise miters if needed.



pweller said:


> I can surely understand the issues of space, as even a contractor type table saw takes up a fair bit of space, especially relative to how often it is used.
> 
> I saw one guy who put hinges on the wings of his Craftsman contractor saw - that was pretty clever.
> 
> ...


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## pweller (Mar 10, 2014)

I always buy tools on an 'as needed' basis, i.e., I let the project determine what tools I will need. That's probably the smartest way to go, as predicting future needs is uncertain. So, if you think you can make your next project with your current set of tools, just stick with what you've got.

I think dowel jigs are cheap, and I think most of the cheap ones work OK. I've not used one, but you don't need to overthink that purchase.

Since you mentioned your current blade has tear out, sometimes, this can be solved with a zero clearance insert/support. A new, better blade is always good, but that might not solve the problem. Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYk_W6lvK1w


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

I always like $4 fixes and enhancements when available. Of course the one thing he did leave out was making sure both the poplar piece and the MDF were square which isn't always simple unless you can square it yourself. True lumber yards are disappearing and much of the big box store lumber is banana shaped cupped among other bad things! Still, this is a good idea.

I went ahead and bit the bullet.. purchased a Forrest blade that should get here tomorrow which will give me Sunday to install it and tinker. Both Amazon and Forrest give 30 day trials so the risk is low and if it works as good as many say it will last me for a long time. I considered a few other brands but in the end the savings for 1 blade wasn't that substantial.

I do think for this project I can make do with what I have given I did find a place that for a small fee can mill the lumber width for me sparing the need to do longer rips. By small fee I am talking about $6 per board or in my case a total of about $24 for the project.

If my Ridgid makes me happy with new blade for more polished cuts ( I won';t have any long cuts with which I'll need to use slider) I'll quickly forget about the smaller miter saws and then start to reconsider table saw options. No doubt ther emay come a day when having a decent table saw will be helpful (like squaring my own sacrificial sled materials such as in this video). Sme of the miter gauges for table saw appear to be quite precise in their ability to fine tune degrees desired.

Regarding dowel tools I have to say I found the Jessem dowel jig to look very nice. I was planning on using a pocket drill set up to mount the shelves and the back plywood piece as I can probably either live with the pocket holes or plug them sand and stain to help hide. But seeing this dowel jig does make me wonder. Is certainly something that will last a lifetime and any future time when I might want to build a display case with shelves, etc I would have it.

Hmm now where is that measuring tape to see where I can fit a real table saw in garage  Downside is I'm not sure I am up to all the setup for a major piece of equipment. I do appreciate simple!



pweller said:


> I always buy tools on an 'as needed' basis, i.e., I let the project determine what tools I will need. That's probably the smartest way to go, as predicting future needs is uncertain. So, if you think you can make your next project with your current set of tools, just stick with what you've got.
> 
> I think dowel jigs are cheap, and I think most of the cheap ones work OK. I've not used one, but you don't need to overthink that purchase.
> 
> Since you mentioned your current blade has tear out, sometimes, this can be solved with a zero clearance insert/support. A new, better blade is always good, but that might not solve the problem. Something like this:


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I think this whole thread is being "over thought." The original poster seems to have a perfectly good 10" Rigid slider. Most of the error in that saw for the cuts described is often in the user.

Wasting money to buy a smaller saw is nonsense. Just take your time and get the accuracy out of your current saw. I have one of the cheapest Craftsman 10" single compound sliders. It is perfectly accurate if I do not try to rush things and take my time. It has served me well in a Condo refurbishment, a complete redo of my home and many large and small furniture projects. 

George


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

GeorgeC said:


> I think this whole thread is being "over thought." The original poster seems to have a perfectly good 10" Rigid slider. Most of the error in that saw for the cuts described is often in the user.
> 
> Wasting money to buy a smaller saw is nonsense. Just take your time and get the accuracy out of your current saw. I have one of the cheapest Craftsman 10" single compound sliders. It is perfectly accurate if I do not try to rush things and take my time. It has served me well in a Condo refurbishment, a complete redo of my home and many large and small furniture projects.
> 
> George


George,

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree the conversation here has gone in many directions but for me it has been constructive and helpful. I enjoy wood working when I do it, but this is not something I do all the time nor do I have a lot of expertise. That said, I do have some skills and I tend to make things slowly but they come out decently. I just would not want to hire me by the hour.

One clarification to your comments. My Ridgid is their 12 inch sliding compound miter saw, not 10.

This post was written after I had built a small (downscaled model) prototype of a display case I intend to build. The original design (now scrapped) involved some intricate cuts requiring some precision, where being off 1/16th of an inch would show. Using the large Ridgid just felt like I was using an oversized tool and thus I started reading about the smaller miter saws, thinking it might be advantageous to have a smaller set up to be used for smaller work.

Those more skilled than I no doubt are better able to do these cuts with most any saw and do a good job of things. Just like a pro golfer can use the cheapest clubs and still outperform the vast majority of the world. I'm neither a pro golfer or pro woodworker and sometimes I need to explore options that might better serve my shortcomings. If they do not exist then I just need to get better or hire out the work I cannot do (hard to find anyone who wants a small job like this one).

At this point I can probably do this particular project with the tools I have since I have redesigned it from scratch and eliminated most of the need for the super precise cuts. After I replace my Ridgid blade with the Forrest blade I'll see how it performs for me. Always a chance my factory blade shares at least a portion of the blame. Always a chance it is just me. It still feels like a huge saw when cutting smaller pieces which again is why I asked the first question about the smaller sliders. I have room in my garage for either (a) a job site table saw such as the Ridgid R4510/13 saws or another small miter saw on a vertical stand.

I am hopeful I'll be 100% satisfied with my saw + new blade and at some point in future can purchase a smaller table saw. Always good to have a decent tool when it is needed while at same time making a smart purchase to reflect the usage. Moving half my garage stuff out to put in a $1000+ table saw for me would be a waste and the saw would be wasted on me. However, a $400 saw with adequate fence stored vertically when not in use might well be a good fit.

Still, I don't disagree that this post has rambled. But it has helped me a lot in reaching the decisions I'm getting to and I'd rather ask and learn than proceed blindly into disappointment. John


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## Jdavis37 (Dec 3, 2014)

Follow up with first my sincere thanks to everyone who added comments and thoughts. They made me think and helped me see things from a different perspective.

My Forrest blade arrived today. Without question compared to the Ridgid blade that came with unit the Forrest was much sharper to the touch (the Ridgid blade had not been used all that much). I checked all the alignments and found the fence was slightly out of square (I did not check with the Ridgid blade still installed). In past I had had some trouble with settings not holding so I was pleased to find my bevel and vertical settings were intact. I made the adjustments to the fence, readjusted the laser and started cutting some wood I had laying around (just pine).

First impressions.....

The Forrest blade without question is smoother than the factory installed original. Still some tear out but am sure with either tape or a sacrificial sled that would all but go away.

I had some wood > 13 inches which allowed me to first square the cross cut followed by a full length rip cut. I repeated the cuts a few times and everything came out very square. I was not seeing this level of tightness before (so it could have been caused by the fence not being square to the blade or it could be the Ridgid blade wasn't exactly "true").

The advice on this forum was accurate and helpful and for that I am thankful. For anyone with similar issues who read this I hope it offers some help as well. Definitely check to ensure the fence remains square and also the blade itself.

I will never know now if a Freud Industrial (or other equivalent) type blade would have been sufficient (most likely would have) but I chose to invest in a blade that is manufactured to very tight tolerances. It wasn't cheap (but was far cheaper than another saw).

My pocket cutter arrived today and I think next up will be a dowel jig. Ordered some Walnut plywood today and keeping fingers crossed it is nicely cut. After that the project is on. Hopefully will actually be enjoyable.

Thanks again to all. Your comments led me to what I think is a good solution. John


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