# Jay, here's one for you!



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

This should be of interest to Jay C White Cloud:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi WoodnThings,

That was kind of you...!!!...Thanks...:smile2:

I am fairly certain I have a link to that on my YouTube channel (??) but I think the source might be the original (?) as this guy tends to copy videos from other, adding his own music and beginning/ending and re-posting them...I know he was taken down for a spell and then seemed to work things out (?) with Youtube. He/she has a nice collection, but I tend to (ethically) always go to the source creator whenever possible, but I'm a "geek" and "odd" that way...

Anyway...great video...thanks for thinking of me and sharing it...!!!...Welcome to a world of woodworking in many ways that is both ageless, and timeless...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks from here also!!! That's patience and skill in harmony. Some of the tools and techniques were very interesting.

Jay, in these cultures is it hard for a outsider to go and learn or even watch intensely??? Do they train from childhood and are parts family trade "secretive" techniques? The framing is overwhelming to look at with so many details, are they similar to stair knowledge...once you see/learn the basic simplicity, it all clicks together??? 

Thanks again woodnthings!!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Thanks from here also!!! That's patience and skill in harmony. Some of the tools and techniques were very interesting...


Hey Tim,

It is truly astounding to watch most traditional woodworkers ply their skills...You included!

Its in the nature (I think) of anyone that has taken the effort to actually learn wood from a more intimate level of understanding...and then work in concert with it, rather than "force it" to bend to the will, which never really works and yields less durable items made of it...



Tennessee Tim said:


> ...Jay, in these cultures is it hard for a outsider to go and learn or even watch intensely??? Do they train from childhood and are parts family trade "secretive" techniques?


Some very much do in almost all traditional arts...even outside of Asia. I know of some in Japan that have a family with "unbroken" woodworking skill sets within the family that goes back (with good records and oral traditions) over over 1000 years!!! There feel and understanding of architectural woodworking is in a different league than most. 

Nevertheless, I see more young people every day that are creating a renaissance of tradtional skills from black smithing, edge smithing, ceramics, textiles, stone...wood...you name it...that are matching and many surpassing what was done. Its truly miraculous to see. I know a tradtional horn bow maker here in New York that actually is considered one of the best in the world by some and his bow go all the way back to Korean, Mongolia and the Middle East...I could keep listing them, but you get the picture...THEY ARE VERY MUCH LEARNING!!!



Tennessee Tim said:


> ...The framing is overwhelming to look at with so many details, are they similar to stair knowledge...once you see/learn the basic simplicity, it all clicks together???


You got it...As I teach students, I offer that they are best served "living only in the moment" as they work. Focus only on the task at hand...See the task as it lays before them and let their bodies, the tools and the materials tell them what needs to be done. When broken down to the elemental steps and modalities...its actually rather simple, or can be if one is patient with themselves and the tasks at hand...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Oh my stars, to say amazing is an understatement. After watching that, I am but a wood butcher. While I always strive to make all my joints invisible, this is fantastic. The only down side I see is time.

That is just mind blowingly (if there is such a word) perfection. Just wow!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Time...???...many of these guys compete!!!*



BigJim said:


> ...The only down side I see is time...


Hey Jim,

Believe it or not Jim, many of these woodworkers are blindingly fast compared to Western woodworkers! Its part of the practice as they see it...

There is a thing in Japan (and now here in the United States too!!! :grin called a "Kezuroukai" (削ろうかい) that actually is a woodworking competition. The do planning of wood, and all manner of woodworking. Many doing the things you see in the video...but for speed and accuracy. They are very serious about this and take great pride in getting faster and faster with each action they perform...

Here are some more links:

Kezuroukai USA

Kezuroukai 2014 Odawara, Japan


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

I have been a great admirer of Timber Framing ever since seeing 
a barn when I was a kid. the Asian, European and American type
of framing with just special joints and pegs is a true artform.
on another forum, we had a "tool swap" and I made a Japanese
style ink pot (Sumitsubo) for my swap project with a couple of
modern twists. converting it to powdered charcoal instead of ink
and earth magnets to hold the lid in place.
the story can be read here: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/401105
Thanks Wood for sharing !!!


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

WOW....thanks John!!!! That's a awesome build!!!


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Man I second that, that is beautiful!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

John Smith_inFL said:


> I have been a great admirer of Timber Framing ever since seeing
> a barn when I was a kid. the Asian, European and American type
> of framing with just special joints and pegs is a true artform.
> on another forum, we had a "tool swap" and I made a Japanese
> ...


John...!!!...that is a stunning 墨壷 (Sumitsbo)...!!!

You did an outstanding job of it, and I like the lid very much...

墨打ち Sumi-uchi (aka "ink hitting" or "ink beating")...[墨糸 "sumi-ito" (aka "ink yarn" ( 墨縄 "suminawa" aka "ink rope") is the line itself ] is the applied methods for using this marking tool 墨壷 "sumitsbo" (aka "ink pad") in the layout or work to place the lines on a piece of lumber or timber...What we call the "snapping and wrapping" of our timbers before the work of actual joinery layout takes place. Its critical to our work, as often we timber frame "in the round" or with "live edge" timber and these Sumi-ito (aka snapped lines) are the only what to achieve the O.5mm tolerances we work to...　

Why did you choose to go with a "dry line" (like a chalk line) and not a "wet line" like the traditional "grease lines" of Eastern Europe and the Middle East or those of "wet lines" found throughout Asia?

Did you ever get to use it? What did you think?

Big thanks for sharing this!!!...:grin:...very nice!!!

Everyone may enjoy seeing this very basic of video on the "snapping method."


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## John Smith_inFL (Jul 4, 2018)

thanks to all for the kind words.

Jay, this ink pot was my project for a tool swap and I had the 
recipients name prior to starting and I knew he did not do the
type of work that the "wet line" marker would produce.
(and it is quite messy in the hands of a novice).
I actually chose the Sumitsubo to test my own skills as I have
been "out of the shop" for several years and slowly getting back
into the groove.
I had an "intense" conversation with a few fellows about the
date of the "chalk" line that we use now and their argument was
that the chalk line only came into use in the 20th Century. . . . . 
I just walked away and left them with their opinions.
anyway, the project was a novelty gift in the tool swap and will
probably never be used. it only has about 15 feet of string thinking
it will only be used on plywood sheet goods, if at all. (thus the brass tag).
it did snap a visible line on plywood, so I know it will work with dry chalk.
I printed up an instruction sheet and source of supplies should the guy
ever want to convert it to the wet ink line in the future.
the next one I make will be for myself and it will be a wet line.
[now that I know what I am doing, LOL].
I hope you got to view the build story with the link to it on LumberJocks,
which is the sister site of WoodWorking Talk.
I think that we all should not underestimate our skills and just try to
step outside of our comfort zones and build something complicated just for fun.

here is a little cartoon for the guys that don't appreciate the history of the Chalk Line.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

John Smith_inFL said:


> ...thanks to all for the kind words...


You are most welcome...That project and your work with it was most excellent!!!



John Smith_inFL said:


> ...Jay, this ink pot was my project for a tool swap and I had the recipients name prior to starting and I knew he did not do the type of work that the "wet line" marker would produce.
> (and it is quite messy in the hands of a novice).


That makes sense...and Yes, it can be very "messy" for novice. It is a dead give away where they learned...or "didn't learn"...LOL!!!:vs_laugh:...to use them...



John Smith_inFL said:


> ...I had an "intense" conversation with a few fellows about the date of the "chalk" line that we use now and their argument was that the chalk line only came into use in the 20th Century...I just walked away and left them with their opinions...


Oh my...one of my favorite "academic" topic of research..."Layout Modalities through the millennia."

I think I would have had more question for them with that perspective about the orgin date for "chalk lines?"

It has been very difficult to get actual definitive data historical/anthropological regarding this subject that I (very much) do spend a great deal of time studying...

My current assertion is that we "know less" that we actually think we do, and many modern view are heavily "Eurosentric" in nature regarding it (and many of the guild arts in general!) 

By my rough estimation it has been a "wet system" for most of its history, but that was right along side the "dry modalities" at the same time for certain applications and ease of use...I have not seen a definitive chronological indicator that they have not existed simultaneously through the ages that they have existed. Western Europe tended to be a "dry system" for the most part with the rest of the world "wet" but again they are both present.

The next deeper topic is in the realms of "scribe, line and edge" rule modalities of layout as they may have applied story-pole, divider, templating and lofting systems...:nerd2:...Yes, I'm a "nerd."



John Smith_inFL said:


> ...I printed up an instruction sheet and source of supplies should the guy
> ever want to convert it to the wet ink line in the future...


That was brilliant and wise...Well done!!!...Not many of them could go "both ways."



John Smith_inFL said:


> ...
> I hope you got to view the build story with the link to it on LumberJocks...


I'm reading it now...and was thinking of joining (?) or being more active there...


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