# Cracked pedestals - what did I do ?



## jmill252 (Jan 9, 2015)

I need the advice of some experienced wood workers . . . 

I am building a dining room table from some plans that I purchased from the New Yankee Workshop website. The plans call for two turned pedestal columns that I made from 16/4 x 6 red oak lumber, as follows (verbatim from the plans):

_Cut 4 pcs. 20" long, joint and surface plane to a thickness of 2 1/2" and rip and joint to 5" wide. Glue face to face in pairs to get 2 blanks approx. 5" x 5" x 20". When glue dries, trim to 19 3/8" long and turn according to plan. _

I turned the columns last July and then they sat in my garage until December as I worked on other components of the project. I got a router table for Christmas and I finally had the tools needed to attach the legs to the column. Happily, I was able to create the dovetail joints and continue with my project.

I glued the legs to the pedestals and then brought them into the house so that the glue could cure in a warm environment. A few days later - to my horror - I noticed a crack on BOTH pedestals. The crack starts in the center of both columns and propagates outwards towards the ends. It is not along the glue line and it doesn't seem to line up with any joints or cuts that I made.  I've uploaded some pictures of the crack below.

I am heartbroken. I spent a lot of time turning the pedestals and, frankly, I don't know what I did that resulted in the crack. I'm going to try to salvage the legs and start again, but I don't want to make the same mistake again (whatever I did).

Does anyone have any ideas as to what caused this and what I can do to prevent this from happening again ?

Thanks.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The wood must have been green. If that is the case it will only continue to get worse. The way I see it you have two choices, fill the crack and continue with the construction or replace the spindles. If it were me I would replace the spindles.


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## Kansas Gary (Nov 13, 2014)

Gees talk about bad luck on a project.........I am defiantly no expert when it come to turning but it looks like to me that was caused by shrinking some when you brought it inside a condition room to me.
You might get a better answer if you would post your question in the "turning" section and see what those guys say why it happened.............Again I feel bad for you on this......Gary


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## bauerbach (Mar 25, 2012)

white side expands, dark side contracts. crack?

maybe it would help to match the 2 sides from cutting one blank in half to insure it has a like moisture content at glueup? aging a bit before couldnt hurt either.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

There's only one true answer....Moisture Content!!!!

Now is to determine when this one was created or started...

1st...wood is man's best friend....and moisture is wood's worst enemy..and if you have one you'll have the other.

Now learning correctly to read and build for it is the most overlooked important step in woodworking.

From your thread I understand it was stored in the garage shop 6 months + after being glued up....so that tells me it wasn't green lumber because it didn't shatter worse than that BUT doesn't guarrantee it was still correct MC for interior use, BUT it still held until bringing indoors so it had to be somewhere close in ADing anyway.

Now, your lumber could've been KD when bought BUT stored/ built/ stored in a unconditioned area to which ALL lumber will acclimate/balance back to the surrounded MC/RH in the room.

In your case it seems(without hands-on and seeing lumber new) that it was dry whether KD or AD BUT the long storage unconditioned gained moisture and once brought into a drier area/room the MC dropped 4-5% quickly and resulted in splitting....IF this change had've been MUCH less or over a longer period of time it may have survived....this splitting in large solids is mostly due to the outside drying/shrinking faster than the inner, it is more unusual in a "laminated" block as yours due to the interior MC should've been dry already....so I feel the moisture gain if KD was more prior to gluing....IF AD it was due to interior acclimating too slow as a glued block.

DID this pedestal have a finish on it when brought in or is it raw wood??? this is another way to slow the speedy MC change by sealing/finishing PRIOR to leaving shop. NOTE::: IT does NOT stop MC issues....only slows the changes so wood stays more balanced.

I hope this helps.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Indiana.Turned in July.hot and humid.Sat in garage until cold December thru many different temp and humidity changes.Brought into house with dry heat.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

You do not say anything about the source of your wood. How it was dried. How long it had been dried. etc., etc.

George


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## jmill252 (Jan 9, 2015)

GeorgeC & Tennessee Tim: I purchased the lumber from a local woodworking supply store. The lumber was rough sawn and kiln dried - no finish. 

Kansas Gary: Thank you for your sympathy. I was absolutely sick when I first saw the cracks. I had spent a lot of time getting the pedestals just right - not to mention that the oak was NOT cheap !!!

Thanks to everyone for their advice. I'm not an expert woodworker and this is the first time I've tried something this ambitious. I guess it was a mistake to bring the piece into the house - I won't make that mistake again.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

For oak to crack like that it couldn't have been properly dried. Your moving it around had little to do with it. 

It appears the legs are not glued on yet. If this is the case you could put the turnings back in the lathe and build a cradle over the top of it and route a dado where the crack is and then glue in a new piece of wood to repair the turning.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

jmill252 said:


> GeorgeC & Tennessee Tim: I purchased the lumber from a local woodworking supply store. The lumber was rough sawn and kiln dried - no finish.
> 
> Kansas Gary: Thank you for your sympathy. I was absolutely sick when I first saw the cracks. I had spent a lot of time getting the pedestals just right - not to mention that the oak was NOT cheap !!!
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their advice. I'm not an expert woodworker and this is the first time I've tried something this ambitious. I guess it was a mistake to bring the piece into the house - I won't make that mistake again.


"I guess it was a mistake to bring the piece into the house - I won't make that mistake again.

You are going to have to take the piece into the house sometime. Do not see that as a mistake.

The problem was the wood. Not properly/sufficiently cured.

George
"


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Wow, sorry about the bad luck.

12-15% MC in summer to perhaps 8% in winter should not do that on red Oak.

Can you post a picture of the actual glue line and a picture looking down on the top tenon or spindle?

Is it possible when you glued the pieces that one side of the lumber came livesawn, while the other was either riftsawn, or quartersawn? The difference in color would indicate that you had different expansion ratios in the two boards, hence the cracking.

Also, what glue did you use? Titebond or equivalent normally has enough creep properties to allow for different movement rates within limits.

If it was a wet wood issue, you would have noticed wet shavings during the turning process.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*why it happened ???, what now?*

To fix or not? If it were mine, I would attempt a fix if even just for the challenge. The pice has now acclimated to the room humidity, so moisture not no lonnger be an issue.

1. Saw it apart on the bandsaw or a circular saw or with a sawzall. Follow the crack if possible, do not make the kerf any larger than the crack if possible. Reglue.

2. Wedge the crack apart using wooden or plastic wedges. Mix some 2 part epoxy with some very fine sanding dust and force it into the crack. Remove the wedges and allow to set up. Sand it smooth again.

If those solutions aren't satisfactory, then leave as is or make new...:blink:


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

I would go along with the moisture content theory. If you want to try again, bring the wood into the house to dry and acclimatize to the in home environment. It is usually much drier than an unheated garage. It can take several months to dry out properly. Moisture meters have become relatively inexpensive during the last few years, so it might be wise to get one for projects of this type. Look for a moisture content of around 6%. Anything much higher will tend to dry out once in the house, and the results will be cracks or warping. I have also had this experience with wood brought in from an unheated area, but in my case the result was significant warping.

If you wish to try and salvage the legs leave them in the house for as long as you can and then make a filler with fine oak sandings and varnish. [If varnish will be the final finish]. Do not use glue, as it will not take the final finish, and will show up quite badly. fill the cracks, and let cure. After the filler has cured re-turn/re-sand the legs. The filled cracks will probably still be apparent, but perhaps not show up too badly. If the table finish is dark they may not show up at all.

Gerry


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

I find working with wood to be interesting and challenging. Wood has a mind of its own sometimes, it may twist, crack, check, and challenge you in so many ways. Then there are mistakes, plan errors, and many other tests for the woodworker. My eye goes to the lamination line where you chose to use a lighter and darker shade of wood. I can visualize the crack repair being less noticeable and challenging than that. Though for someone like Steve Neul, with all his finishing techniques may see that as an easy challenge.

First you got very lucky in where this pedestal cracked. I am assuming when the pedestals are installed, the crack will be under the table facing the other pedestal. This will be in the least visible location. Second, it cracked before being finished and brought into the house at a later date. Finally, that crack looks very straight, giving even more options. Who says something won't go wrong the next time? It is a definite fix in my mind, as well as a widening of your skills. Really not that big of an issue.

There are many options for repair and finishing. You have to decide how you want to approach the challenge. I have some suggestions for you if you like, but I need you to decide whether you're up to the challenge. For me to write out a detailed process would be involving and consuming, and my time and effort and that of others will be wasted if you decide to chuck it and start over. Let us know. I really like your design from what I can see. Craftsmanship looks good too.


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

WillemJM said:


> Wow, sorry about the bad luck.
> 
> 12-15% MC in summer to perhaps 8% in winter should not do that on red Oak.
> 
> ...


 Good point, hadn't considered that possibility.


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## Ghidrah (Mar 2, 2010)

The crack in the pic was on the flat sawn side, did the crack in the other ped start on a flat sawn side too?


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I was definetly not suggesting you never bring it in the house.I was simply outlining the chain of events taken from your post that may have caused the issue.Many temp and humidity changes.The wood could have picked up some moisture from being in the garage for an extended amount of time thru various weather conditions and then brought into the heated house with warm dry air.
Not ideal conditions.


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## jmill252 (Jan 9, 2015)

*WillemJM*: I took a photo from the top per your request. The blanks were made from the same board. I cut it into sections, planed & jointed, and then glued together to form the blanks. The crack in shown on the top, whereas the seam runs diagonally from upper right to lower left in the photo. I used Titebond to glue the board together to form the blank.








*Ghidrah:* No - one extends into the flat, the other does not. Here's a picture of the second spindle for your reference. This one cracked along the glue joint.








Thanks to all for your comments. I'm learning a lot !!!


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Jmill, how long from time you purchased the KD lumber till the time you actually glued up??? From the pics it appears only 1 glue joint (2 boards glued as 1) per leg. In any shrinkage it will bust the weakest link...in your case 1 was the glue joint and the other was the wood.

I'm asking the question above because I see a common problem with KD'd lumber...MOST is stored after drying in a uncontrolled humidity enviroment warehouse/store.

How thick is each board that is used in glue-up? It appears approx 3".
Either your lumber wasn't correct MC when purchased or gained alot prior to gluing.

This is how I'd fix this issue with the least chance of it rehappening. I'd slice the leg into 1/3s or 1/4s with one slice being split up the crack, then slice either 60 degree on 1/3s or 45 deg on 1/4s out of the centers that would reglue back up as a hollow which handles the moisture changes better by allowing the center to change at approx same rate as the outside. It should glue back extremely close to original and would only require a light turning and possibly just a good sanding over the joints and maybe a reshave on ped legs joints. If you look at many older larger vessels/columns you'll find hollow glue-ups or long bored/drilled core through solid wood to help prevent this issue of moisture changes/movement.

LOL...you've got to bring a build project in the house sometime or your shop will get full!! It's just learning to build for movement...it's not IF it will...it's IT WILL move.

Nice looking legs.....uuhhhmmm....that didn't type out right....I like the pedestal design...interested in the top build...if not stated prior, whats the plan??? a glue up????a veneer??? DON'T forget to plan for the major movement that will have....PLEASE don't glue the skirt to the top...it will WARP!!!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Here's what I see*

This glue up shows the grain on the two boards almost in the same orientation, cupping side down, on is just rotated slightly more. This amounts to making a larger section much like the tree was originally and in my view it will cup and crack like a large section of the tree. One of the boards should have been flipped over to make the grain "opposing" to reduce the shrinkage effect.


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## jmill252 (Jan 9, 2015)

*Tennessee Tim:* Thanks for the compliment - I work out . . . :laughing:
Back to the woodworking project: here's a link to the plans that I am building from - for your reference. The table is designed to be disassembled - hence, the pedestal will not be glued directly to the top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sTtP0fV-zs


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Board orientation has nothing to do with drying shrinkage from the outside in this case. MOISTURE and DRYING destroys the wood.

Now orientation has great effect AS wood is drying from green....it DOES tell you how the wood WILL react as drying,,, BUT once PROPERLY dried the effect is so minimum it has very little IF not none.....think about it.. IF it's correctly dry when built, there is no more movement or change in the radical part of the wood as it does going from green to dry....I DID NOT say there's not minor movement in wood from MC swings just not the radical cupping/bowing that we mostly see....that is mostly lack of wood movement knowledge in a build.

IF we glue up 4 or more boards according to you're theory than ALL glue-ups will destroy because they can't all orientate somewhere in the wood correctly.
(edit) Sorry jmill I was posting at same time of yours. That'll be a pretty table!!


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for posting the extra pictures, that looks like a good joint and the grain matching is not too far off. I agree with Bill, if you flipped one of those boards chances for survival may have been better, but you seemed to do everything OK and that is not a bad joint.

Interesting post, it would have been great to know moisture content at build and final after cracking.

Here is another question, looking at the picture? Is that a small crack I see at the 12 o'clock screw hole? It looks as if you had screws in there? If this was screwed to a a table top not allowing for movement, that could explain the mystery.



Obviously shop versus inside caused shrinkage and the cracking in this case, it is really however an exception. I design and build for movement and after 40 years of doing this never had a piece crack on me. That includes pieces moving from the humid Gulf Coast to dry middle of Arizona. Many spindles like yours, some a lot bigger, never had an issue.

Some of my pieces have traveled overseas by non conditioned container and stored on an ocean shipping dock for several months before unpacked and moved inside a home, no issues.


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## jmill252 (Jan 9, 2015)

*WilliemJ:* In answer to your question - the screw holes are from the face plate that I used to turn the blank on my lathe. I have not completed the table top yet - hence, the pedestal was not attached to any surface that would restrain its movement.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

jmill252 said:


> *WilliemJ:* In answer to your question - the screw holes are from the face plate that I used to turn the blank on my lathe. I have not completed the table top yet - hence, the pedestal was not attached to any surface that would restrain its movement.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Sorry for your problems.

If you still have some of that lumber in your shop, a moisture reading would be interesting. They are not expensive, you can even go as far to measure the moisture at the yard where you purchased that.

Lots of good advice given here as options, let us know what direction you take.


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