# Table leg joints with pocket screws



## DPJeansonne

Would jointing the table leg to apron with pocket screws be a satisfatory joint? How does this type of joint compare to the more typical mortise & tendon connection? Are there any other acceptable jointing methods?


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## knotscott

I've done it as a convenience on a piece I was less concerned about. It works, but it's not as strong as an M&T joint. Any possibility of adding a biscuit combined with the pocket hole screws? That'd make a sturdier joint and is still easier than an M&T.


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## johnv51

It's doable on a light weight table like an end table or small coffee table. I wouldn't use that method on any table that will carry a load. I would also use a corner brace or bracket even on a light table. It could also be a good opportunity to try your first mortise and tennon joint.


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## mdlbldrmatt135

Beadlock is an option

http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?filter=beadlock


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## Dean Miller

*table leg pocket screws*

Morning JP
Strength wize I suppose pocket screws would work, esp. with modern glues. Esthetics wise it just doesn't feel right to me. Nobody but another woodwooworker is probably going to notice. If driving the screws pulls the joint flush and tight until the glue sets it will work. Don't make the mistake I did and use to powerful of a drill. Getting the bit just a little off center can put to much torque on it and break the tip off the bit. I stick with a 3/8 drill now. Good luck. Dean


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## John in Tennessee

Should work if you put a good dose of glue on it.


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## Tweegs

Like this?








Nope, wouldn't do it :laughing:

Honestly, I'm not a fan of pocket hole joinery in general.
Mama wanted a nativity stand and waited 'til it was 13 degrees outside to ask. My shop ain't got no heat and I don't own a glue that will set up in those temps. Pocket holes were my only option.

Quick, down and dirty. That is part of a 3 tier stand, bet I don't have 5 hours in it.

To chime in with the others...sure, on something small, wouldn't do it on an eatin' table though.


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## cabinetman

I'm not a fan of pocket screws or biscuits. Better methods would be M&T, loose tenons/dowels, in that order.


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## clampman

I second Cabinetman's opinion and order for both strength and durability.


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## DPJeansonne

*pocket screws vs. M&T joints*



cabinetman said:


> I'm not a fan of pocket screws or biscuits. Better methods would be M&T, loose tenons/dowels, in that order.


I get the feeling that most people recommend staying with M&T. But -- I see the reference to " loose tendons". For my benefit, exactly what is the difference between M&T and loose tendons?
Thanks for clearing me up.


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## 12penny

DP....mortise (female, usually in the leg) tenon (male, milled on the end of the apron). One fits the other for mortise and tenon joint. For loose tenons you cut a mortise in both pieces and use a seperate tenon. They can be store bought or shop made. Mortises for loose tenons are normally cut with a router. Beadlock is a popular loose tenon. Search that. You should find something.


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## TheRecklessOne

Maybe its just me, but I really like biscuits and pocket joinery. Generally, for me they set up tight with clamps and titebond II and seem strong to boot. It's fast and easy. I use both for built-ins, face frames, and cabinet carcasses without any complaints yet. 

However, if I'm going to be building a piece of furniture or something I'd like to be an heirloom piece I'm going to use M&T. If you're table is going to see moderate to heavy use, and you want to pass it down...M&T & angle brackets!

just my opinion.


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## cabinetman

DPJeansonne said:


> I get the feeling that most people recommend staying with M&T. But -- I see the reference to " loose tendons". For my benefit, exactly what is the difference between M&T and loose tendons?
> Thanks for clearing me up.



12penny gave a good description for the physical differences. You can buy pre-made loose tenons such as these. Drilling/routing your own mortises for a fit, can make a good joint. If you think about a loose tenon being glued to one member that's similar to a tenon of the M&T. In theory, IMO, the tenon part of the M&T may be stronger than it's counterpart of a loose tenon just because it's all one piece, and there is no glue joint.

Done right with a good fit, a loose tenon is very strong. An advantage of loose tenons is it may be less of a hassle than doing the tenon of a M&T. Along those lines the whole fitted joint may be easier to fabricate with loose tenons.

The principle for loose tenons can be compared to using dowels, as they could be considered "loose tenons".


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## DPJeansonne

*pocket hole screw joint strenght*

I know many think that pocket hole screws are not as strong as M&T. I asked Kreg Tools tech suppoprt if they had any data on the strenght of their jointery and below is a response I received. Hope it sheds some light.



Response from Kreg tech support >> "This is a question we get asked quite often. A independent lab completed testing a few years back that showed that a pocket hole joint failed at 707 pounds when subjected to a shear load while a mortise and tenon joint failed at 453 pounds. Pocket hole joints are tremendously strong for a couple of reasons. 1. The use of a mechanical fastener (screw) is significantly stronger than the material around it (wood), and 2. The amount of direct clamping force placed on the joint by driving the screw combined with today's glue technology makes for a sensationally strong bond. To be honest it depends on the application as far as which one is stronger. There have been a few woodworking magazines that have done tests using numerous techniques including these two. Depending on the application they are testing the results varied with these two techniques flip flopping. So I usually tell people that they are about the same as far as strength goes since it really does depend on what you are doing."


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