# kiln drying (for guitar building)



## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

hey everyone, a new guy here with novice questions...just diving into woodworking, so I've come to dip into the pool of knowledge and experience.

two questions:

1) Kiln drying will remove the moisture in the cells so that finishing treatment can be absorbed and rid of bugs...but will it also prevent the wood (reg sawn) itself from warping and twisting?

2) when building either a solid or semi-hollow guitar bodies and necks is it a must that quarter sawn woods must be used?

been shopping for wood and kiln dried quartersawn lumbers seem very expensive was hence looking for alternative options.

Thanks in advance!


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Kiln drying is faster than air drying--and not as fast as vacuum kiln drying--However,other than cooking insects--all three will give you sound ,stable wood when the moisture level is low enough.

For a guitar neck you need straight grained wood---1/4 sawing will do that.

As to finding a cheap source for high quality wood---search for a local sawmill---


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

mikeswoods said:


> Kiln drying is faster than air drying--and not as fast as vacuum kiln drying--However,other than cooking insects--all three will give you sound ,stable wood when the moisture level is low enough.
> 
> For a guitar neck you need straight grained wood---1/4 sawing will do that.
> 
> As to finding a cheap source for high quality wood---search for a local sawmill---


in long island, ny all i was able to find were hardfloor dealers...


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

You may need to go 'mail order'---

Grizzly has a lot of luthier supplies--including neck blanks---

I know there are guitar builder members---please be patient---one or more will see this.
I'll add 'guitar building' to the title to catch their attention ,if you don't mind.


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

luthier supply wood - Google Search

Shop Tools and Machinery at Grizzly.com 

Stewart-MacDonald: Everything for building and repairing stringed instruments! | stewmac.com 

I built a Stewart MacDonald banjo long ago----nice stuff from them---


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

mikeswoods said:


> You may need to go 'mail order'---
> 
> Grizzly has a lot of luthier supplies--including neck blanks---
> 
> ...



excellent, thank you


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

in a lot of what I've been reading lately, custom luthiers are making multi piece necks by book matching the opposing pieces. I have a banjo with a three piece neck and a guitar with a 5 piece neck and they haven't moved a bit. Here's a picture illustrating the grain alignment.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's another source for supplies

http://www.lmii.com


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

Quickstep said:


> in a lot of what I've been reading lately, custom luthiers are making multi piece necks by book matching the opposing pieces. I have a banjo with a three piece neck and a guitar with a 5 piece neck and they haven't moved a bit. Here's a picture illustrating the grain alignment.



5 peices...wow. was thinking of doing something like that with 3. 

so the grains should mirror eachother?


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

...and don’t forget www.allparts.com and www.guitarfetish.com for parts….or http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitarparts/ for that matter. 

IMO, grizzley's site is not all that great and in fact, pretty much not worth a visit even. Really there is nothing they sell that cannot be had for less and/or in a greater selection elsewhere and what they have that’s not wood is the import stuff which in some cases is decent stuff but in others is kinda crap. Fetish is a far better place to shop for what they have. LMII, Stewmac and Allparts should be the first and second and third stop for ANYTHING you need...probably in that order as well. For wood you really cannot beat LMII because they only have/want the good stuff. As a result they are frequently out of stock on the nicer stuff. You can use anything they have as soon as you give it a couple days to acclimate to your surroundings. If you can get your fingerboard from them then you should and you should also let them cut the fret slots. Its like $9 and its done right. No art to this part, its pure math and its done right or done wrong! If they don’t have what you want and/or you make your own, send it to them to cut the slots. Until you decide you are going to be building often its kind of expensive to get set up to cut slots right and mistakes get expensive with the woods you will likely be using.

Once you are buying the wood I don’t think the way it was dried is all that critical to its future structural stability. If its gonna move then its gonna move. I have found though that its only gonna move so much and then its kinda done. Some kinds are worse than others. For locally sourced wood, if you have time, my advice is buy the wood you want to use and do the basic planing/jointing you need to do to start cutting the accurate measured pieces. Now store it for 6 months where you will have the instrument and in the orientation they will be when stored as a completed instrument. If this is your first instrument they you WILL HAVE time. You have it because you want to build one or two or three with cheap wood first...like pine for example. Build the throw aways and you will figure out what process works for you. Then after all that, how you finish is going to play a part in all this as well. Take a painted Strat for example. There is so much sealer and top coat on that that I doubt the wood could move if it wanted to in the first place. That finish can account for upwards of 1/8th inch total…bigger the price tag, thinner the finish is a decent rule of thumb. 
On the subject of "tone" wood. If this is a solid body electric then technically Baltic Birch ply would work pretty darn good for stability sake  . Others will disagree on this subject, almost violently in some cases. I suggest to you this...the pickup, that thing that converts the mechanical vibration into an electrical signal that the amplifier converts to the sound you hear...yeah, its not a microphone. Its a transducer. Whatever subtle effects different types of wood might have are pretty much lost before the amplifier has its way with the signal. You want to select stable wood that will hold up over time first. Second, if you are NOT painting it then you may want something pretty to look at as well. For semi-solid it may be a little different depending on what you mean by semi-solid and on what kind of electronics you outfit…like piezo pick-ups which are microphones. If you are just hollowing out part of the body to make it lighter then think of it like you might were it solid. If you are making something like a Gibson ES then there may be some truth to the tone of the wood but really, still, unless you are installing a piezo then not much IMO. As long as the wood doesn’t dampen the strings vibration then you are pretty much good to go with solid electrics. On the matter of tone wood that’s really about it...now queue the tone-wood zealots! (but not so much here  )

On the neck…one piece, two, three, …ten? Bolt on, set or neck thru? The neck is perhaps the easiest and hardest part. Look at a Fender Strat and on almost all of them it’s a single piece of lumber (apart from non-maple fret boards) and they are quarter cut cause they kinda have to be. You can get a really stable neck by laminating several different pieces with grains pulling against each other as illustrated above and get in reality a more stable neck out of the process. Different species in the mix can help a lot as well. Maple and Mahogany are fantastic neck woods…that’s why Fender and Gibson use them almost exclusively and with those you can throw in just about anything else you want to for the way they look and be fine. In the case of some really beautiful options like bloodwood and wenge they also add to the structural integrity as well. You may never see a neck that does not have a truss rod either. You need one almost always to pull against the strings. Not infrequently you may need one to counter the woods reaction the other direction as well. Basses may even have carbon rods in there to help with these things. Gotta be careful with those cause they can deaden the neck in a hurry.

Spend some time NOT here but on the luthier forums and do a LOT of lurking and searching. 99% of the questions you have will have been asked and answered in multiple ways. You ask them again and you will get some cranks suggesting you search first…they are right but also being rude about it in my opinion. Both http://www.lmii.com/tutorial-videos and http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/ have tons of info. Even watch the acoustic stuff because a lot of things transfer. Also, spend a LOT of time at your local “Guitar Center” Pick up and closely examine every instrument they have. Look how Fender did what Ibanez did vs how PRS did it and so on. You are not reinventing the wheel here. What you do will have been done before so why not learn from the masters!

Don’t worry too much about the wood for the body. Pick what you like and fasten it to a stable neck (not too much worry here either) and you will be fine. http://www.wynguitars.com/wood/ is a great place to get some ideas about what woods work together and in what ways (with a definite bias for the “tone” if you subscribe to that religion  ) The stuff he builds is just beautiful! 

…and this is getting a little toooo long winded now so I think this is a good place to stop.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

Neck lamination example. This is a cut off piece one of my favorite necks. On the final instrument it made a very thin and very stable neck on a 34 scale bass. Here we have Maple, Bloodwood and Wenge. Its hard to see the bloodwood grain but it forms a V with the maple next to it. The Wenge changes a lot down the length of the board. Damn near a spiral. Its one of the things that make it difficult to work sometimes and one that makes it so much fun. It is damn stable stuff, so is the Bloodwood, both more so than the maple in my estimation and Maple is pretty stable stuff in its own right! Here the Wenge looks out of place but a foot up it looked different and then a foot more again. Kooky stuff.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Just one more case for a multi piece neck. The center stripe makes for a nice guide when shaping the neck.


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

MrZ2u said:


> ...and don’t forget www.allparts.com and www.guitarfetish.com for parts….or http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitarparts/ for that matter.
> 
> IMO, grizzley's site is not all that great and in fact, pretty much not worth a visit even. Really there is nothing they sell that cannot be had for less and/or in a greater selection elsewhere and what they have that’s not wood is the import stuff which in some cases is decent stuff but in others is kinda crap. Fetish is a far better place to shop for what they have. LMII, Stewmac and Allparts should be the first and second and third stop for ANYTHING you need...probably in that order as well. For wood you really cannot beat LMII because they only have/want the good stuff. As a result they are frequently out of stock on the nicer stuff. You can use anything they have as soon as you give it a couple days to acclimate to your surroundings. If you can get your fingerboard from them then you should and you should also let them cut the fret slots. Its like $9 and its done right. No art to this part, its pure math and its done right or done wrong! If they don’t have what you want and/or you make your own, send it to them to cut the slots. Until you decide you are going to be building often its kind of expensive to get set up to cut slots right and mistakes get expensive with the woods you will likely be using.
> 
> ...




thanks for the details....it's a big help. Not much of a tone-wood guy myself but rather more focused on the construction of the guitar itself hence looking for cheaper hardwoods use. If the wood actually made any difference, my untrained ear would not notice too much...lol.

I've refinished two guitars but the bodies were already cut by someone else and my daughter n nephew want me to build them a tele-style from scratch. hence my journey into this...lol.

I'll check out those sites and do what i can. you've been a big help...Thanks!!


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

nmssis said:


> ...my daughter n nephew want me to build them a tele-style from scratch.


Well hell, that's easy...especially if you are gonna paint. Ash or Alder...or, hell, if you wanna go way old school, pine. Yep, Leo made some of the first ones from pine. I still wouldnt though  

Search telecaster templates and play around with the ton of .pdf you might find or, and this is NOT cheating, go get this...

http://www.amazon.com/Telecaster-Guitar-Body-Neck-Template/dp/B00DTGFVY2

Tele is a great first project. Very simple build. Hardest part will be the neck and neck pocket but to be honest...since it wont really be a Tele why not make it a neck thru and much more comfortable to play? That way you can avoid the pocket BS and plus, it really pisses the purists off


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

oh, and for tele you really cannot beat this jack mount. WAY better than the stamped steel. I use it on all my bodies. Its just perfect!

https://www.allparts.com/AP-5270-011-Satin-Chrome-Electrosocket_p_465.html


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

MrZ2u said:


> Well hell, that's easy...especially if you are gonna paint. Ash or Alder...or, hell, if you wanna go way old school, pine. Yep, Leo made some of the first ones from pine. I still wouldnt though
> 
> Search telecaster templates and play around with the ton of .pdf you might find or, and this is NOT cheating, go get this...
> 
> ...



I would be interested in through necks. however finding the source of wood would be key...i'm in the nyc area and not much by way of sawmills or hardwood dealers that cater to my needs. most of the "hardwood" they deal with around here would be for flooring.

i already had the tele plan mirror printed in full scale and will be going to Lowes to pickup 3/8 MDF board and acetone to make those templates 
....we shall see.

since i am somewhat comfortable with fender style guitars, hence we chose that...yeah, my daughter will be building this with me....lol


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

What needs? Maple, Ash and/or Alder? 

http://www.rosenzweiglumber.com/
http://www.lenoblelumber.com/pdf/hardwood_lumber_stockinglist.pdf
http://www.wightmanlumber.com/index.php/second-nav/interior-products/lumber/
http://www.woodboardsandbeams.com/hardwoodlumber.html

...and I am in Texas. Come on now...Google is your friend


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

MrZ2u said:


> What needs? Maple, Ash and/or Alder?
> 
> http://www.rosenzweiglumber.com/
> http://www.lenoblelumber.com/pdf/hardwood_lumber_stockinglist.pdf
> ...


i'll chk'em out...thanks!

i was able to find many suppliers and dealers on my own but man-o-man are they expensive....the price for few slabs n some hardware, i could walk into GC and pickup a squier classic vibe or an epi es-335...lol


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Well, you have started a great discussion--welcome to Woodworking Talk.:smile:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm building acoustic guitars but this site caters to electric - Luthier Talk. You'll pick up a lot of info there and some helpful folks, as well. Many will have been down the same path you're taking.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

nmssis said:


> i'll chk'em out...thanks!
> 
> i was able to find many suppliers and dealers on my own but man-o-man are they expensive....the price for few slabs n some hardware, i could walk into GC and pickup a squier classic vibe or an epi es-335...lol


...and you could go into a pawn shop and buy a Squire for less than GC but you wanted to build from scratch. You need to compare prices with the Fender USA or Gibson, not their cheap brands. For a Tele your lumber costs should be less >$100. Its probably a little more than a board foot of maple for the neck and maybe 2-3 bf max of ash/alder for the body.


If you want a cheaper way to go to test the waters then these may be up your alley. They would be a cheap way to get all the hardware in to finish your hand build. Its not great gear but you can upgrade a little hear and there down the road if it feels like the thing to do.

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Super-Lightweight-Tele-Style-kit-with-Rosewood-OR-Maple_p_1204.html

http://www.guitarfetish.com/335-Set-Neck-Kit-Flamed-maple-Bound-Rosewood-fingerboard_p_4481.html


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

Guitar is something I am interested in, always will be but i will also be doing shelves, chairs n other things.


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

MrZ2u said:


> ...and you could go into a pawn shop and buy a Squire for less than GC but you wanted to build from scratch. You need to compare prices with the Fender USA or Gibson, not their cheap brands. For a Tele your lumber costs should be less >$100. Its probably a little more than a board foot of maple for the neck and maybe 2-3 bf max of ash/alder for the body.
> 
> 
> If you want a cheaper way to go to test the waters then these may be up your alley. They would be a cheap way to get all the hardware in to finish your hand build. Its not great gear but you can upgrade a little hear and there down the road if it feels like the thing to do.
> ...


yeah, i saw those kits before...but where's the fun of taking unformed plank of wood and shaping it into something wonderful. More interested in the journey than the destination. :thumbsup: 

for all i know, the woods i get for this project may end up as firewood...:laughing:

but willing to jump in with both feet!


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

nmssis said:


> yeah, i saw those kits before...but where's the fun of taking unformed plank of wood and shaping it into something wonderful. More interested in the journey than the destination. :thumbsup:
> 
> for all i know, the woods i get for this project may end up as firewood...:laughing:
> 
> but willing to jump in with both feet!


Oh I get the idea driving you. Just wanting to make sure you know its not a cheaper route to go for common guitars like a Tele/Strat/LesPaul/etc.

I brew my own beer too. Its cheaper to buy even Sam Adams or Sierra Nevada than to brew it but brewing is fun. NOW...if you like stuff thats <$9 a six pack you are saving coin. You want to build a PRS Custom 24 then you will save money...once you get the hang of it anyway 

Now stop talking about it and start making saw dust...pine saw dust first though...right!?!?!?


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

MrZ2u said:


> Oh I get the idea driving you. Just wanting to make sure you know its not a cheaper route to go for common guitars like a Tele/Strat/LesPaul/etc.
> 
> I brew my own beer too. Its cheaper to buy even Sam Adams or Sierra Nevada than to brew it but brewing is fun. NOW...if you like stuff thats <$9 a six pack you are saving coin. You want to build a PRS Custom 24 then you will save money...once you get the hang of it anyway
> 
> Now stop talking about it and start making saw dust...pine saw dust first though...right!?!?!?



lol...yeah, printed the body blueprint and drew some mods to the body outline. now in search of the neck blueprint to printout.

tomorrow, going to go pickup a bench vise and some clamps.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

MrZ2u said:


> ...and you could go into a pawn shop and buy a Squire for less than GC but you wanted to build from scratch. You need to compare prices with the Fender USA or Gibson, not their cheap brands. For a Tele your lumber costs should be less >$100. Its probably a little more than a board foot of maple for the neck and maybe 2-3 bf max of ash/alder for the body.
> 
> 
> If you want a cheaper way to go to test the waters then these may be up your alley. They would be a cheap way to get all the hardware in to finish your hand build. Its not great gear but you can upgrade a little hear and there down the road if it feels like the thing to do.


I'm right there, too. Because I intend to build as many acoustic guitars as I can over the next 10 years (or so...) the first thing I'm doing is building fixtures and jigs for each step. So the first one is going on a year, maybe a year and a half, but the next ones will be much easier and quicker. If I count what we've spent on tools and shop and factor that cost into the first one then this is a mighty expensive guitar! I could have bought a very nice custom Collings or McPherson or D-45. 

But I'm not doing it to save money, rather I'm doing it because it's been a dream for the last 35 years and I'm finally at a point where I can satisfy that urge to build my own. And I have a list of about 20 people wanting my guitars so at some point the cost should balance out but that wasn't a concern - just getting to say I've built a few is satisfaction enough. Hopefully that list of 20 will grow to the point where people are trying to get one before I stop building (I just turned 62 so I figure I have at least 10 good years to do this - God willing, maybe more!)


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

difalkner said:


> I'm right there, too. Because I intend to build as many acoustic guitars as I can over the next 10 years (or so...) the first thing I'm doing is building fixtures and jigs for each step. So the first one is going on a year, maybe a year and a half, but the next ones will be much easier and quicker. If I count what we've spent on tools and shop and factor that cost into the first one then this is a mighty expensive guitar! I could have bought a very nice custom Collings or McPherson or D-45.
> 
> But I'm not doing it to save money, rather I'm doing it because it's been a dream for the last 35 years and I'm finally at a point where I can satisfy that urge to build my own. And I have a list of about 20 people wanting my guitars so at some point the cost should balance out but that wasn't a concern - just getting to say I've built a few is satisfaction enough. Hopefully that list of 20 will grow to the point where people are trying to get one before I stop building (I just turned 62 so I figure I have at least 10 good years to do this - God willing, maybe more!)


yer a spring chicken!

when you get done would love to see it and hear it.


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## RogerC (Oct 15, 2012)

If you're building a tele, head over to http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/. About the best bunch of tele builders around. You'll find pretty much anything you could possible want to know from pros, novices, and everything in between.

As far as quarter-sawn necks, most of Fender's are actually flat sawn, so there ya go.

It looks like MrZ and I share the same philosophy on "tone woods" as well. I've built guitars from everything from douglas fir to baseball bats to concrete, so I'm pretty secure in what I think makes a good guitar.


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## MrZ2u (Feb 1, 2015)

RogerC said:


> As far as quarter-sawn necks, most of Fender's are actually flat sawn, so there ya go.


Ya know, a friend of mine says that too...I find more that I look at are quarter and it seems the more they cost the more likely that is the case too. My Strat, P and J are all quarter...though the J I wouldnt argue cause its just barely. I honestly think Fender just grabs a piece and make a neck. Hard Maple is pretty damn dependable and all they really need to avoid is twisting since the truss rod can take care of the rest. 

Funny, you will get some of those same tone wood folks swearing they can hear the difference too and I think they are even more loony than I did before. Dont even get them started on hand vs machine wound pickups


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## nmssis (Sep 4, 2015)

RogerC said:


> If you're building a tele, head over to http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/. About the best bunch of tele builders around. You'll find pretty much anything you could possible want to know from pros, novices, and everything in between.
> 
> As far as quarter-sawn necks, most of Fender's are actually flat sawn, so there ya go.
> 
> It looks like MrZ and I share the same philosophy on "tone woods" as well. I've built guitars from everything from douglas fir to baseball bats to concrete, so I'm pretty secure in what I think makes a good guitar.


lol...been looking there for some time now! 

I posted this original question here specifically on matter of how wood behaves n such. I got the blueprints from that site and many other sound advice from those members...they've been a big help.

oh, n reranch forum is great as well...many excellent members.

yeah, when i see fender customshop guys on YT tapping on a strat body, not sure what they are listening for. I even heard that Brian May and his dad made a guitar cut from kitchen cutting boards.

yeup, MrZ has been very resourceful...thanks!:thumbsup:


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## RogerC (Oct 15, 2012)

MrZ2u said:


> Ya know, a friend of mine says that too...I find more that I look at are quarter and it seems the more they cost the more likely that is the case too. My Strat, P and J are all quarter...though the J I wouldnt argue cause its just barely. I honestly think Fender just grabs a piece and make a neck. Hard Maple is pretty damn dependable and all they really need to avoid is twisting since the truss rod can take care of the rest.


Yep. You're probably right about the necks. My strat is definitely flat sawn, but it's a MIM. I've looked at quite a few pics of older instruments ('50s and '60s), and I see a lot of them that aren't quarter-sawn, but looking at a lot of newer pics (2000s), a lot of the higher-end models are. That leads me to believe the focus on quarter-sawn is a new development. I wonder if Fender uses them, as you said, on higher-end instruments in response to popular myth. Basically touting it as another advantage in order to justify the higher price.

Remember, Leo was an engineer, so he was interested in building something easy to produce, easy to work on, and dependable. If he felt there was a structural deficiency in flat-sawn necks, he most certainly wouldn't have used them.



MrZ2u said:


> Funny, you will get some of those same tone wood folks swearing they can hear the difference too and I think they are even more loony than I did before. Dont even get them started on hand vs machine wound pickups


LOL, yeah. There are some guys out there that get caught up in it. What's funny is it's usually the guys who aren't great players. Rather than spending their time on developing their skills to get the sounds they want, they think there's a magic combination of "mojo" that'll get it for them. 

Here are a couple vids of a friend playing my very first build. It's made from old pine and has a cheap, ceramic magnet import pickup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIRUDE3cMuE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oFUNB0jR8w


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## okuzster (Dec 4, 2018)

have a question here; i get it mirroring is the thing here but isn't it using even numbers for lamination is better than odd numbers for mirroring? what is the advantage of using odd numbers here, almost every neck i saw was made by odd number pieces.


and sorry for spawnng an old thread





MrZ2u said:


> Neck lamination example. This is a cut off piece one of my favorite necks. On the final instrument it made a very thin and very stable neck on a 34 scale bass. Here we have Maple, Bloodwood and Wenge. Its hard to see the bloodwood grain but it forms a V with the maple next to it. The Wenge changes a lot down the length of the board. Damn near a spiral. Its one of the things that make it difficult to work sometimes and one that makes it so much fun. It is damn stable stuff, so is the Bloodwood, both more so than the maple in my estimation and Maple is pretty stable stuff in its own right! Here the Wenge looks out of place but a foot up it looked different and then a foot more again. Kooky stuff.


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