# First stairs question



## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

So I'm getting around to finishing my first staircase this winter and had a few questions.

To help myself envision how the stairs go together I made a video, it's pretty rough and has some errors in it but I thought I'd share it anyway.

The staircase in the video is NOT done to scale. I eyeballed this just for a reference. 

Video:







Now a couple of questions.

1. The video didn't show it, but the 3 blocks that make up the bullnose form will be glued together beforehand. Will this be strong enough to hold the newel solidly?











2. I saw this bit of hardware in a Rockler catalog. Will these brackets be enough to hold the top newel in place?











3. The skirt board(if that's the correct term) will meet the treads at 90 degrees and the risers at 45 degrees. I found a .pdf that shows how to mark the angles on this board using a "preacher stick" but I'd sure appreciate any advice on the actual cutting of this.











Oh yeah, in the video I forgot to put in the plywood sub-treads and risers. Here's an actual photo of what I need to finish:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Those stairs look steep to me*

Did you do a rise and run calculation? Looks like riser is is too tall and the treads aren't wide enough...or run isn't long enough. I'm just askin' now because if they aren;t what you want or up to code now is the time to address those issues, not after you worked your arse off trimmin' 'em out. ...and I'm only looking at a photo. 
What do the steps measure riser and tread? Or just disregard me stickin' my nose in.... :yes: bill


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

Risers are 8" and tread is 9" in the photo. The finish tread will be an inch wider with the nosing.
No worry about code, there's no inspection. When I applied for my permit to build the addition I asked about inspections and they told me the only inspection would be for the footer before the foundation.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

Your plan looks good with the exception of a couple of things.

The sawtooth skirt board against the wall needs to be put on before and treads or risers. All the treads and risers will butt into it.

I don't like the way your fastening your post. I would use these.

One last thing. I start at the bottom with my first riser then tread then riser then tread, etc, etc.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Do you have stringers under all that plywood? Will adding the thickness of the tread to the plywood make the first step too tall and the last step to short? 8 inch rise is the absolute max allowed but to me it is too tall, I always try for under 8 inch. 10 1/2 inch tread is code. 

That is a neat video, I liked that. The skirt and risers are right in the video. That is the first time I have seen a starter tread solid like that. I don't see anything wrong with that but a suggestion on the post on the starter tread. Before you install the starter tread insert the post into the starter tread, glue and screw from the bottom of the tread into the shoulder of the post on all four sides, this should make the post solid with the tread. 

On the top posts, I do not like the "J" brackets as they will work loose in very short order especially if you have kids. I always carried my top posts through the underlayment and subfloor and tied the post into the framing below the floor, you would have to break the post off even with the floor for it to be compromised. 

The only other thing I can think of at this moment is if you are going to install over the plywood be sure to glue the dickens out of it or it will squeak. I really don't like installing over the plywood as there is no way to fasten the bottom of the riser to the back of the tread.


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

Big Dave said:


> Your plan looks good with the exception of a couple of things.
> 
> The sawtooth skirt board against the wall needs to be put on before and treads or risers. All the treads and risers will butt into it.
> 
> ...


Oops, the skirt board against the wall was messed up in the video, I intend to do it before the treads and risers.





jiju1943 said:


> Do you have stringers under all that plywood? Will adding the thickness of the tread to the plywood make the first step too tall and the last step to short? 8 inch rise is the absolute max allowed but to me it is too tall, I always try for under 8 inch. 10 1/2 inch tread is code.


Yes, there are three stringers under the plywood.
I took the tread thickness into account, along with the flooring upstairs so they should come out even. There is a door at the bottom of the stairs so I didn't have a lot of choice on the rise and run sizes.



> That is a neat video, I liked that. The skirt and risers are right in the video. That is the first time I have seen a starter tread solid like that. I don't see anything wrong with that but a suggestion on the post on the starter tread. Before you install the starter tread insert the post into the starter tread, glue and screw from the bottom of the tread into the shoulder of the post on all four sides, this should make the post solid with the tread.


Thanks, I like the sound of that.



> On the top posts, I do not like the "J" brackets as they will work loose in very short order especially if you have kids. I always carried my top posts through the underlayment and subfloor and tied the post into the framing below the floor, you would have to break the post off even with the floor for it to be compromised.


I should have done it that way, but I got froggy and ran the radiant flooring water lines right under the subfloor without thinking about the newel so I need to attach it to the surface. Bugs me to no end now but I messed up so that's the way it is.



> The only other thing I can think of at this moment is if you are going to install over the plywood be sure to glue the dickens out of it or it will squeak. I really don't like installing over the plywood as there is no way to fasten the bottom of the riser to the back of the tread.


I had a book from the library that said the plywood was a standard. So I didn't need to do that?
Didn't think about attaching the bottom of the riser to the tread, but you're right. That'll bug me now too. :laughing:

I've learned a lot from these stairs so far and I've still go a lot of learning to go.

Thanks for the advice.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Before,somewhere around 1950 or so(depends alot on location).....treads and risers were installed before skirt.Where we would notch the nosers overhang back to sq.This tradition started to fade when shop-built router'd assemblys showed up.Then that gradually led to contractors installing skirt first and butting treads/risers to them.Argue all you want.........there are some critical advantages to the former method.I'd recomend installing skirts first(as beens posted)and doing the butt method.....just be aware that it isn't the only way.

Next is newel post.It has to be "buried" into something way more stout than a starter tread.JMO....argue at will.But every set we do,its buried into framing.If concrete floor,we core drill good size hole.....install steel pipe...that gets matching hole bored in bttm of newel...and is epoxied.Carry on,BW


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Big Dave said:


> Your plan looks good with the exception of a couple of things.
> 
> The sawtooth skirt board against the wall needs to be put on before and treads or risers. All the treads and risers will butt into it.
> 
> ...


Dave, I haven't seen that type of post gear, how does it work? Does it just screw to the bottom of the post? Any surface mount will loosen up easily, at least the ones I have seen will.:smile:

I had to go back and watch the video, I didn't catch the right hand skirt going on after the treads. It does have it's advantages and disadvantages and sometimes it has to be installed afterwards as some framers didn't use a 2X4 spacer on the stringer against the wall. I always pulled the stringer loose and spaced it out, that was easier than cutting the skirt to fit the treads and risers.

I also agree with BW on the starter tread, I didn't go further enough explaining the post through the starter tread, I agree it really does need to be secured to other members under the tread. I got a question on the post on the starter tread, how does the rail fasten to that type of post as it sits offset on the starter, does the rail turn into it?

Wolfman, I see your problem going through the floor with the top posts, the heat would for sure be a problem. I don't know where the folks who wrote that book you bought lived, but plywood first is not the normal way for steps. I can see that during construction and remove the plywood but not for permanent use. 

If you can get to the back of the stairs you can drill holes in the bottom of the plywood risers to fasten the bottom of the risers to the back of the treads. I will say that the plywood should help take the bounce out of the stairs mostly as I didn't see any framing under the stairs and there should have been to strengthen the span of the stringers and remove the chance of bounce and reinforce for heavy loads on the stairs. Another question on the plywood, is it glued and nailed or screwed really good, if not, after a while it will more than likely squeak.


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## Big Dave (Sep 16, 2006)

jiju1943 said:


> Dave, I haven't seen that type of post gear, how does it work? Does it just screw to the bottom of the post? Any surface mount will loosen up easily, at least the ones I have seen will.:smile:


There are five screws that go up into the bottom of the post through the plate then the plate gets screwed to the floor. I think there are places for eight screws through the plate into the floor. Very solid and it allows you to shim plumb if needed. The plate is about a 1/4" thick.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Big Dave said:


> There are five screws that go up into the bottom of the post through the plate then the plate gets screwed to the floor. I think there are places for eight screws through the plate into the floor. Very solid and it allows you to shim plumb if needed. The plate is about a 1/4" thick.


Dave, that is an improvement over the J brackets, being a 1/4 inch thick would help when installed over just plywood. Thanks for explaining for me, I appreciate it.


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

So here's another picture of where the lower newel would go:










So attaching this block to the stringer with glue and a large bolt will not be enough to hold the newel tightly? The hole would be the entire depth of the first step.


The second newel at the top of the stairs will be against a wall with blocking between the studs to attach the post to, like this:










It's the first newel at the top of the stairs that has me concerned.


jiju1943--the handrail will turn into the side of the newel.
I used plenty of glue and screws putting the plywood onto the stringers. As far as getting behind the stairs, I can get to the lower half still.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

wolfmanyoda said:


> So here's another picture of where the lower newel would go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The blocking on the first step will do well for stabilizing the post, the thing I would be worried about with that is everything has got to be perfectly plumb and level and with zero clearance. That is a lot to get totally right, if it isn't then the post will not be plumb and with zero clearance it will be tough to get the post in. With a little slop in the hole you could leave the riser off, install the tread, drill holes in the blocking and put screws or lag bolts into the blocking to secure the post and to get it plumb. Then you could reinstall the starter riser. Just a thought.

Not being able to get behind the stairs to secure the bottom of the risers some might have spaces between the riser and the tread. I would sure glue were wood touches wood to try to stop squeaks. Squeaks bother some folks but they don't bother me as I was raised in the country and everything in the old houses there squeaked.


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks Jim, appreciate it.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Wolf...it "might" hold.Which is sort of a problem......Theres a direct correlation to the overall strength of a newel based on the ratio of how much is "buried" vs how much is exposed.The strength we're concerned with here is in really only one direction....its from the stair side pushing at a right angle.IOWs a drunk falls into newel.Theres a minor element with children.....they can push newels both out and in.

In the direction of rail....its just not a problem.If handrail is atteched securly its rare for them to be pushed away from rail.We usually lean newel,"off-plumb" in the direction of handrail.This then gets plumbed up when installing rail.Under no circumstances should that be the other way 'round(trying to "pull newel w/rail).Theres been "some" arguement over the years that newel should lean in twds stair 1/16 or a touch more.I never got to hung up on that,just sayin it has been argue'd.

So we're back to that sideways movement.I ain't bustin on anybody's technique......knock yourself out.Just be aware that you can go to a whole lot of effort AND time with all sorts of ancillary attaching methods.We've found that its faster and way more efficient(in engineering terms) to just plan on burying the newel from the get-go.Meaning cutting an accurate/matching hole in sub-floor and making a big mortise/tennon out of them.

If,for some reason that just can't be done...........then you need to think of the whole 1st tread section as a torque bx(for lack of better term).We do this mid'span on alot of stairs,BTW........but anyway,tying the stringers together with 3/4 ply(should be some sub-flr scraps floating around jobsite).It may require snippin the carriges which then gets "put back" with 3/4.You can also add 3/4 ply stiffen'ers in between carriges up a cpl treads.

Theres simply no-such thing as overkill on starting newels.Just don't think that it all takes that long....I could've buried a newel in the time it took to write this post.Good luck,BW


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

BWSmith said:


> Wolf...it "might" hold.Which is sort of a problem......Theres a direct correlation to the overall strength of a newel based on the ratio of how much is "buried" vs how much is exposed.The strength we're concerned with here is in really only one direction....its from the stair side pushing at a right angle.IOWs a drunk falls into newel.Theres a minor element with children.....they can push newels both out and in.
> 
> In the direction of rail....its just not a problem.If handrail is atteched securly its rare for them to be pushed away from rail.We usually lean newel,"off-plumb" in the direction of handrail.This then gets plumbed up when installing rail.Under no circumstances should that be the other way 'round(trying to "pull newel w/rail).Theres been "some" arguement over the years that newel should lean in twds stair 1/16 or a touch more.I never got to hung up on that,just sayin it has been argue'd.
> 
> ...


Feel free to bust away on my technique....I'll take all of the advice I can get. :yes: 
I won't be starting this for a couple of months so I've got a lot of time to keep over-analyzing it.


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

The first floor is a slab and it has water lines as well, but no lines under the stairs. I could forget the bullnose tread and go with a newel on the first tread like in this picture, and bury a large bolt or something into the slab.


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

Wolf I'm just thinking out loud here so if any one has any better idea`s that will help then just go right ahead.
First I noticed that at the top of the stairs you have a return in the hand rail going down the stairs to the newel,why not put the return on the balustrade on the first floor this would allow you to move the newel onto and through the last full thread.

This would allow you to get good fixing into the floor under construction and have the last two threads cut into the newel.


On the bottom newel it really helps if you could get it into the ground if not here is another thought,at the moment you have the hand rail running out of line with the newel this would mean you would have to fix a goose neck from the hand rail to the newel.
Why not forget the goose neck and move the newel into the stair when you fit the false open stinger you could mortice and tenon this into the newel and cut the fist tread and second riser into the newel if you wanted the first riser and tread could be rapped around the newel but this would only be for looks.

They are just quick thoughts any one else got any.

I`v typed this quick so any questions just ask.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Good stuff above.....and in general you're doing exactly what we do on every set.Uhhh,that would be some serious head scratchin.Its very much a case however....the more experience the better.Not so much for actual workmanship....although thats always very important.The experience in more about problem solving....so havin tricks up your sleeve really helps.

Yes,moving newel up to catch the next riser works very well....also making the newel "fancy" by making it much bigger.This is just one more way of broadening the base....IOWs its back to the ratio of support vs non-supported.One of the nice things about traditional volutes(research involute curves,shows process for laying out or rolling/carving your own)is how they spread the newels load out over a much broader area.

Do yourself a favor and lay out baluster spacing/centerline....kinda at the same time as newel location.It keeps the spacing correct on that first baluster.Theres a simple and very effective algebraic formula for doing ANY spacing,whether stairs,decks,columns,ect,ect.The main crux being to seperate the solids(balusters) from overall ID opening....then devide resultant measure by one more,than the number of balusters.That is,IF you want your start and stop "space" the same as the others.Theres times when start/stop spacing is a half-space.In that case the resultant measure above is devided by the same number as balusters(two half spaces=whole).

On stairs baluster spacing........hold a level up(plumb) where its touchin the noser.....now measure back to another noser.But skip at least one tread,preferable two.IOWs you're measuring the actual distance from one noser on a level plane to the second or third noser.This is "A"....."B" is the total of however many balusters occupy this space.This is the solid.We're looking for the space so its A-B=C...."C" being the total area to be devided into spacing.On stairs you'll be dealing with half-spacing cause theres a half space from noser edge to baluster.IOWs. the noser is actually the cntr line of a space.

The above may seem like it takes too long.....it would be faster to just trial N error it.....NOT!Once this formula gets understood its the basis for SO many aspects of laying out that its indespensible.Imagine a colonnade,heck lets make it curved.....100+ feet long.That trial N error stuff just don't cut the muster.Likewise on stairs......we ain't got the time to be dinkin around with it.Sorry for the book.Let me know if you need pics on the formula thing,BW


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## wolfmanyoda (Apr 10, 2009)

BWSmith said:


> Let me know if you need pics on the formula thing,BW


That would be a great help right there, thank you.

I'm liking the idea of moving the baluster onto the first tread. I'll run that idea by the boss tonight when she gets home. :smile:


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