# USA made equipment



## Juwoodworker (Feb 25, 2012)

I am looking to start a shop and would really like to use tools made in the USA. Does any manufacture still make tools I America? Price is not a concern.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

Juwoodworker said:


> I am looking to start a shop and would really like to use tools made in the USA. Does any manufacture still make tools I America? Price is not a concern.


If price is not a concern then it is simple. There is one basically full line woodworking machine company left. Northfield. You can get the 4 of 5 basic machines from them for in the range of $75-100K. Pick up the drill press from Clausing to round out the basic shop. 

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/index.htm

If near 100,000 for a drill press, table saw, band saw, jointer and planer is actually a concern then you won't get NEW American you will not get US built machines owned by American companies. There are some ways to get closer to US made though.


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## Juwoodworker (Feb 25, 2012)

I will look into them. It is going to be hard but I am trying to set up a shop out of all us products. I hope it is possible


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## believebraves (Jan 10, 2011)

Used powermatics. You will not be disappointed.


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## J.C. (Jan 20, 2012)

Unfortunately, at this point you don't have tons of options especially when it comes to power tools. When it comes to hand held power tools, B&D and their subsidiaries are the only big named company left that is still US owned. They however pretty much don't have any factories left in the US. I hear the only thing they have here is an air compressor factory. 

Makita (Japanese owned) still assemblies miter saws here and they might still assemble a couple other things here but I'm unsure what, if anything.
Delta still makes their Unisaws here but they where bought by Chang Type Industrial Co., Ltd. at the beginning of last year. 

For an up to date list, we have a pretty good thread going over at Contractor Talk for tools and supplies.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

Tooling and hand tools are easy to buy US made, machines are harder but if you pay the freight most anything can be covered except a sliding table saw. The power hand tools is the biggest obstacle, I don't think it can be done. But you do have plenty of 1st world built options with Festool and Bosch. Most ancillary things can be bought US made.

With the machines unless $15,000 to $35,000 per machine doesn't bother you the used market is great.

The older light duty stuff (Delta, Powermatic and Walker-Turner) is priced higher than the medium/heavy duty stuff like Northfield, Oliver, Yates American and Porter. You can get excellent examples of those machines for 10-25 cents on the dollar. 

The hardest part of your quest will be the hand power tools, hardly anything left made in the US.


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## NickSaw76 (Nov 10, 2011)

I think everyone at some point wanted all USA made power tools like you do. I used to be the same way. But, the way I look at it, times have changed. Many many years ago USA made tools were king and pretty much anything made overseas was complete garbage. This mentality still exists today; however, I don't think it's accurate anymore in this day and age. That way of thinking is long gone in my opinion. I guess my point is don't ignore foreign label brand tools. And if you really want truly usa made wood working equipment, like others mentioned, you'll have to go with used. But my biggest problem with that is even quality older machines have their limits. They will usually need some sort of restoration (new motors, bearings, etc).


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

NickSaw76 said:


> I think everyone at some point wanted all USA made power tools like you do. I used to be the same way. But, the way I look at it, times have changed. Many many years ago USA made tools were king and pretty much anything made overseas was complete garbage. This mentality still exists today; however, I don't think it's accurate anymore in this day and age. That way of thinking is long gone in my opinion. I guess my point is don't ignore foreign label brand tools. And if you really want truly usa made wood working equipment, like others mentioned, you'll have to go with used. But my biggest problem with that is even quality older machines have their limits. They will usually need some sort of restoration (new motors, bearings, etc).


Although the quality of Asian made equipment has come up it is nowhere near the quality of the serious machines like Northfield makes now and the medium/heavy duty machines of other US manufacturers. In general most of the industrial iron needs very little in the way of restoration and can't be bought well below the cost of a new Asian machine, with only a little TLC they will last for over 100 years in a hobby shop or light commercial shop, unlikely with machines made in Asia. How do I know that will last that long, many of them have already lasted that long and many have worked 50-60 years in industrial environments and are still plug and play. 

The other offshore source is a whole different story, names like Martin, Felder and Altendorf from Europe are the current state of the art and are also built to outlive all of us in commercial use. They are certainly priced appropriately as well. 

With the current economy this is the golden age of heavy US iron woodworking machines, the best of the best can be bought in great condition for less than the price of the Asian counterparts, although they aren't junk they don't build things that can match a Yates American Y36 bandsaw, a Norhfield HD jointer or a Oliver 299 planer at any price.


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## NickSaw76 (Nov 10, 2011)

Huxleywood said:


> Although the quality of Asian made equipment has come up it is nowhere near the quality of the serious machines like Northfield makes now and the medium/heavy duty machines of other US manufacturers. In general most of the industrial iron needs very little in the way of restoration and can't be bought well below the cost of a new Asian machine, with only a little TLC they will last for over 100 years in a hobby shop or light commercial shop, unlikely with machines made in Asia. How do I know that will last that long, many of them have already lasted that long and many have worked 50-60 years in industrial environments and are still plug and play.
> 
> The other offshore source is a whole different story, names like Martin, Felder and Altendorf from Europe are the current state of the art and are also built to outlive all of us in commercial use. They are certainly priced appropriately as well.
> 
> With the current economy this is the golden age of heavy US iron woodworking machines, the best of the best can be bought in great condition for less than the price of the Asian counterparts, although they aren't junk they don't build things that can match a Yates American Y36 bandsaw, a Norhfield HD jointer or a Oliver 299 planer at any price.



Don't get me wrong, I agree with some of what you're saying. Machines like an old Oliver 299 Planer are built like tanks with all that cast iron construction. But even with all that massive iron that would last 100's and 100's of years, I wouldn't buy something like that today or recommend it to new wood workers. It's not always as plug and play as you would think. Most of the older equipment like that is 3-phase which would require phase converters or replacing the motor(s) with single phase units (which in some cases can't be done). Not to mention the hassle and cost required just to move heavy behemoths like that. All that starts to add up quickly...I've been there and done that and in my opinion it's not worth it. Sure, a newer Grizzly Planer for example may not have as much iron as those monsters did back in the day. But with a little TLC, even a modern Grizzly cast iron planer would lost a long long time. In the end, most of the table saws and planers are made overseas anyway so it really makes no difference. I refuse to pay double the price for a new PowerMatic or Oliver table saw...both are now made overseas.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

NickSaw76 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I agree with some of what you're saying. Machines like an old Oliver 299 Planer are built like tanks with all that cast iron construction. But even with all that massive iron that would last 100's and 100's of years, I wouldn't buy something like that today or recommend it to new wood workers. It's not always as plug and play as you would think. Most of the older equipment like that is 3-phase which would require phase converters or replacing the motor(s) with single phase units (which in some cases can't be done). Not to mention the hassle and cost required just to move heavy behemoths like that. All that starts to add up quickly...I've been there and done that and in my opinion it's not worth it. Sure, a newer Grizzly Planer for example may not have as much iron as those monsters did back in the day. But with a little TLC, even a modern Grizzly cast iron planer would lost a long long time. In the end, most of the table saws and planers are made overseas anyway so it really makes no difference. I refuse to pay double the price for a new PowerMatic or Oliver table saw...both are now made overseas.


 
I must say you are one of the few who have ventured into old iron that has moved "on" to Asian imports. Technically, all the planers and table saws except for Northfield, Woodmaster and William and Hussey planer/moulders are made outside the US though General does make them in Canada. Funny enough a TS is the only machine I would buy new made in Taiwan, the reason is the riving knife, short of Northfield they are the only cabinet saws made with a riving knife which I really like. I have a PM2000 and I do think the premium for it, the Sawstop and the new Delta are worth it over the Grizzly 1023 and 690/1 but that is a personal opinion. 

In the end I find the value in American made iron to be much higher than that of the Asian built machines but not everyone will feel the same.

Then again the best solution is to chuck it all and buy Martin!


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Well Huxleywood,I'll have to raise my hand to the above.And I have WAY more than just ventured into old arn.We do CI welding and general machining on old arn here as a partial biz....almost daily.


Its a debate or discussion that has many different wavelengths.......it depends on ones perspective.


One aspect missing from alot of these discussuions is how heavy earthmoving equip is designed.The notion of somehow "baby'ing" a loader,dozer or whatever....will somehow make it,"last forever"....is simply NOT how this kind of equip was designed.Its designed to have a certain service length.....period.Looking at heavy duty shop equip is or can be compared.Yes we can debate rebuild costs vs new.......


Industrial design is a wonderful thing......and if I have to explain it to someone they probably,"just won't get it".We are very fortunate here to have a machine shop full of not only old US arn....but specifically from a very narrow time period(the 40's).The problem for me is when folks start to wear it on their sleeve like,if it isn't this brand or label.....it ain't chit.Not directing that at you.....more as a pet peeve.



I read a very interesting paper years ago."The futile pursuit of happiness".The bttm line or crux of the article was.....it isn't the "thing" that makes you happy,but what one DOES with it.So,with shop equip.....sure make it an XYZ brand,and can I have that in the '47 model.....but I ain't gonna lose any sleep over it,and will fire up any reasonably safe alternative machine in a NY minute.



The money thing IS an important part of this.......when you compare old(and very rebuildable)US industrial iron,to pretty much anything new......well there ain't much to debate.The US stuff will win hands down.Convenient?Well,thats back to the individual.Best of luck,BW


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

To the OP......if price isn't "that big of a deal"......(my words)


I would seriously entertain custom or spec designed machines built from the ground up.Most folks are just targets to marketing co's anyoleway.Once passed the first several "layers" of shopworld......you start to see alot pf proprietary equip.Heck,one of the reasons we had to start a machineshop was there wasn't equip even thought of,much less availible on the mkt. that we needed.


Its an avenue(spec machines) that played/plays a role in equip manufacturing going offshore.But society being the easily mislead folks that we are.....its so much easier to blame EPA,corp greed or the miriad of other cliche excuses.When simply.....if you're in the US,with reasonable capital....and heres the stickler,a brain....designing and building equip is rather low on the totem pole compared to other money making proposals.


So,its an opportunity not a problem.....want it built in the US?Well,whats holding you back?BW


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

BW I agree with most everything you said. I will take some issue with the service length issue. I won't dispute the heavy equipment angle as I can certainly agree it has merit. I will maintain that woodworking equipment doesn't follow the same logic completely, I assume because it doesn't have a internal combustion engine nor hydralics. Take a planer for instance anything in the light to medium duty range (PM, Oliver, Northfield, Buss, etc) they were designed to meet the demands of 2 shift constant running for years on end, as long as they are not allowed to sit for months on end in a hobby shop their lifespan will be far longer in the hobby environment possibly a magnitude or more greater. 

That all said if money is a priority then this is a great time to get industrial iron as long as you aquaint yourself enough to be a savy buyer. With the state of US manufacturing the bottom is out of the market, in many cases you can buy serious machines for less than hobby sized machines are selling for used, just because buyers are unfamiliar with the heavier stuff and generally afraid of it. The money looks even better when you consider the fact that old iron has seen all the depreciation it possibly can, heck it often sells just above scrap price, buy a new Asian bandsaw today and sell it a year from now for half what you paid, buy a Yates American Y20 use it for 5 years and chances are you will get every penny you spent on it back. The savvy buyer can actually make money. Don't get me wrong, I will buy and have bought new machines, but it has only been when I wanted/needed a machine to meet specific parameters and they were unavailable used in my time frame. 

Lets not forget the OPs post, he wants to set up a shop with US made machines, from manufacturers that are US owned. Unless he is willing to buy used his major supplier will be Northfield, unless their is a custom option which you mentioned. I can't imagine unless he needs specific machines that are not available in a production based machine that custom would be cost effective, but I certainly could be wrong about that.

I personally don't have a favorite machine company, new or old, I do however have favorite machines but even the ones I think are "best" or provide the "best value" are merely my opinion. I do think that if one only comfines themselves to new machines they are doing their shop and their wallet a disservice but it doesn't hurt my feelings since the less people that appreciate the value of used machines the more the market stays depressed!


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Cliche warning alert!!!

"Its all good" Hux.

Taking a planer as an example of what I was trying to get across......Old US machine(pick one)was designed to take "X" amt of DOC.Somehow the notion that if I take it easy on this by taking less of a cut.....this machine will last longer.My point was....thats not how this equip was designed.It was designed,in a time when quality and pride was near the forefront....to be "used up".....and,wore out......

So,in alot of cases,they are.And no amt of paint,new bearings or whatever will see it perform like a new,......albeit much lessor quality XYZ machine.Somewhere in there is a demarcation point that savy buyers......rebuilders,or whomever can take advantage of.


Heck,I don't have to go any further than comparing old,cured,finegrained cast iron to prefer working/welding on older equip.But also know that capital investments,taxes.....and overall biz climate can sometimes make new purchases work out better?No biggy.....


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I beg to differ on the no amount of paint or bearings will make it work like new.

My daily user TS is 114 years old. It cuts nicer then my 1990 PM 66, which it has replaced.

My 1943 16" JA Fay & Egan jointer faces and edges a board nicer then a late model machine I have used. 

My 1943 Yates American 24" planer will run circles (speed and finish) around almost any newer 24" planer out there.

With the exception of planers, WW machines are simple things. Most of the issues one could have stem from a lack of know how when it comes to setting them up and tuning them in.

My BS is from the early 1870's and after a through dialing in, it cuts as nice, if not better then any late model BS I have used.

Just look at Northfield's 3 toed jointer, that design has been around since the late 1800's when Frank Clement Patented that design.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

I am not saying you can't wear out old iron, you can. More often than not the ones I have seen that were "worn out" had been abused. Bearings allowed to freeze and wallow etc etc. I did see one Buss planer that the beds were worn beyond any resonable repair. The sawyer processed teak day in and day out.

My point about life span is simple, a industrial machine will last longer in a light commercial shop or hobby shop than it will in an industrial setting given they are both well maintained. I have seen multiple jointers for example that have been in school systems for 60-70 years and still on their original bearings. I just looked at a Northfield 12" MD that had been in a high school since 1958, short of the knives everything on it was original the Reuland DMD started and ran so smoothly you could almost not feel it start with your hands on the beds. 

You know I thought about the business situation BW mentioned but I can't make the numbers work for anything short of a medium industrial production setting. There are plenty of dealers that do full refurbs on woodworking equipment, a high end TS, 16" jointer, ~24" planer and 32" BS will run you around $20k in like new condition the equivalent will run about $75k new, taking in to account tax benefits vs the opportunity cost of the money I just can't make it work. 

I could care less if no other woodworker ever discovers the advantages of old iron or new European machines and spends their life using Asian imports, but if they never aquaint themselves with the options they are doing themselves a disservice. They can produce furniture as nice with the Asian imports as with the old iron, they will just likely spend more time, more money and be frustrated more often as a whole. My message is there is no reason to fear 3 phase and no reason to fear a jointer that weighs as much as a car. I am not afraid of snakes, but there is nothing wrong or illogical about fearing snakes, just don't be afraid of them solely because your mother told you to be. 

BW we can agree to disagree, though I am not sure how much we disagree when you really get down to it.


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## NickSaw76 (Nov 10, 2011)

It looks like JuWoodworker has 2 options if he wants only usa made equipment for his shop. 

1: Go with the money is no object approach and buy all Northfield equipment...which was estimated to be in the "$75 - $100K" range.

2: Go with old heavy iron machines that weigh as much as a car, require 3-phase power and last but not least, require the use of forklifts/backhoes/cranes just to move the equipment.

If his pockets are truly that deep then he will have what he wanted. If he has the time to investigate auctions, ebay, CL, etc for old heavy iron equipment, has 3-phase power in his shop, has a shop big enough to hold everything, has access to forklifts/backhoe's, and has patience to replace 60 year old bearings and motors....then again, he will have what he wanted.

However, if there's a chance his pockets aren't that deep and he doesn't want to fool around with the old iron, overseas equipment would be another option for him. And if he did decide to go with overseas equipment, the quality of the overall woodworking projects would not suffer. His skill level would be the only quality deciding factor. No matter which road you take I wish you luck with your new shop. Have fun and keep the sawdust flying


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I think you will still need a fork lift or pallet jack for new Northfield stuff and I suppose they give you option of single or 3 phase.

3 phase should not be a deterrent to anyone. If I can set up a RPC and run a whole bunch of machinery, anyone can do it.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

New Northfield weighs the same as it always has, a few pounds more in many cases. I can move pretty much any piece of equipment by myself with a good pallet jack, car jack and engine hoist plus you only move it once, once it sits it tends to stay. Not many people that have to have a "mobile" shop are going to be looking at industrial equipment, even though I have seen mobile bases on 2,000# jointers if one needs things to be mobile they usually don't have the room for a 100+" jointer. 3 phase is a non-issue, just get aquainted with RPCs and buy or build one. The rehabbing issue can be avoided, lots of dealers sell the stuff ready to work, you will pay over scrap price but less than Asian machines with equal capacities. Most of the used machines are sold by dealers to companies that don't want to fix machines initially, they just want them to work. 

People think the care and feeding of old iron is some sort of hassle, it can be if you neglect it or buy a project and never actually put the effort in to rehab it. The Asian machines I have owned take far more time and effort to keep running at high effeciency than the old iron. 

I agree one can build things just as well with Asian stuff as with Euro machines or old iron, the Asian iron just tends to cost more money than old iron, depreciate faster and takes more time and effort for the same results. A good craftsman can build a Newport Arch Top Highboy with a pocket knife and a spoon but if he has the best machines and tools he can build it much faster and with less effort. 

To each their own.


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## cheese9988 (Jan 4, 2010)

If your looking for hand tools, there are some manufacturers that still make them in the US. Like everyone else says though, they are a dying breed, your going to have to pick and choose to find a domestic product. In my opinion, how well a product is made has more to do with the quality system of the manufacturer, and less to do with where it is built. I will make an exception for China, which doesn't even have a standards bureau.

Cooper Tools/Lufkin: Apex, North Carolina
Starrett: Various places around the US, Headquarters in Athol, Massachusetts
Stanley/Proto: New Britain, Connecticut
Fluke: Everett, Washington
Snap-On: Kenosha, Wisconsin
Products Engineering Corporation: Torrance, California
Oneida (air filtration): Syracuse, New York

See, its not all bad. :no:


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## Juwoodworker (Feb 25, 2012)

I didn't know this was going to be such a debate. I will look into both options. We haven't broke ground on the shop yet so I have about 5 or 6 months to do "homework" I don't really care if all the machines are new as long as they run as good as possible and are true. I am just looking for something that has kept americans employed and not home over seas. I do understand that a lot of the"top of the line"tools come from over the little pond. I work every day for the last 9 years running wening moulders grinders and gang rip saws. The last shop that I worked at spent about a million to start up and only had a moulder gang rip and knife grinder. I have a budget of about 300000+ for tools and start up supplies do yea I do have a budget but it is very loose. I have always been willing to pay more for stuff made in USA.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

Juwoodworker said:


> I didn't know this was going to be such a debate. I will look into both options. We haven't broke ground on the shop yet so I have about 5 or 6 months to do "homework" I don't really care if all the machines are new as long as they run as good as possible and are true. I am just looking for something that has kept americans employed and not home over seas. I do understand that a lot of the"top of the line"tools come from over the little pond. I work every day for the last 9 years running wening moulders grinders and gang rip saws. The last shop that I worked at spent about a million to start up and only had a moulder gang rip and knife grinder. I have a budget of about 300000+ for tools and start up supplies do yea I do have a budget but it is very loose. I have always been willing to pay more for stuff made in USA.


 
Give Jeff Mahacheck at Northfield a call, he will be happy to talk to you about your needs and what he can provide. Northfield also does complete rebuilds and often has some ready to sell, last time I checked they just had a #7 planer, the benefit with their rebuilds is a new machine warranty and they are stickered to current standards. You may also want to get in touch with Rich Fink at Eagle Machinery, he bought out the old Oliver, although they are a dealer for the new Oliver (Asian) they rebuild Oliver machines and actually build the one off semi-custom, they usually have a few Straightoplanes.

There are a lot of good used machine dealers who can source and provide you with everything from project machines to fully reconditioned stuff either American or European. PM if you want some leads. 

Depending on your target consumer you may be able to get traction in the market by pointing out you make American good on American machines with American tooling. Depending on your specific needs the only obstacle to having all US built machinery is money and/or the time spent sourcing used equipment. If I were tooling up a production woodworking shop there would be nothing from Asia in it, except for maybe a one off machine that wasn't actually used on the line, everything would be from Europe or the US. 

Good luck to you and your company!!!


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

WarnerCost,am curious what you're using for scraping mating surfaces?Pwr or old school?And what your hrly scraping charges are....may send you some work?BW


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

What do people in China say? Do they use Chinese built stuff and brag about the quality of it? I wonder if Made in China is a selling point or a deterent in China.... 

I chuckle at the thought of it actually.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

BWSmith said:


> WarnerCost,am curious what you're using for scraping mating surfaces?Pwr or old school?And what your hrly scraping charges are....may send you some work?BW



Any work that is beyond what I can do, I send it to a local welding/machine shop. They do great work at a price I am happy with.


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## Huxleywood (Feb 24, 2012)

ACP said:


> What do people in China say? Do they use Chinese built stuff and brag about the quality of it? I wonder if Made in China is a selling point or a deterent in China....
> 
> I chuckle at the thought of it actually.


In general the Chinese covet Western goods just as the Taiwanese and Japanese did before them. I don't think the Chinese are under any illusions, they know they can make pretty much anything to spec, they also know the US and Europe don't tend to bring the high spec items to them, though that is/will change.


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## WhiteOakz99 (Feb 29, 2012)

For sale: Frank H Clement Co. (Rochester, NY) No. 1 American (Shop No. 11771) 14" table saw with Century Electric Co. (St. Louis, MO) HP-3 RPM 1750 in excellent condition. Serial #5AA26174, Model #R5-225-A3-3F, Amp 30.8


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## sarab (Aug 25, 2013)

Hey,
I need help to buy used woodmaster planer/molder machine model 725 in Canada if any one know where to buy this in canada plz help me. if i buy from USA then i have to pay duty in canada that's way am looking in Toronto,canada.
Thx


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