# Radial Arm vs Miter Saw



## peridigm (Dec 29, 2014)

Right. So my purpose of this thread is to hear from long timers who have used both and whether I need to have both in my shop. I own a DeWalt DW708 12" compound miter and a barely used(purchased by my father) Craftsman 10" radial arm with a 16" travel. Currently, use the DW708 for just about all cross cutting. I rarely use the radial arm but would probably use it more if it was setup with proper support wings. Right now it's just in the way. My miter saw is integrated into a station, which I'm in the process of redoing. Another winter project under way. My question is, do I need to, or should I bother integrating the radial arm into the same station. Ideally I would have both if I had the room, and I can probably get away with it. I realize this depends on what kind of projects I get into, etc... but, for arguments sake, let's say there is no limit to the projects I will build, and since I already own both tools, is the radial arm worth having in a dedicated station, or would I be better to allocate the approximately 20" wide used by the saw for something else?

If you are not familiar with Craftsman bases, they are flared wide leg bases. I would have to remove the base and mount the saw base which is 18.5x22 deep. Also, the DW708 has a total travel which requires the front of the deck to be 31" from the wall. Right now the DW708 is mounted on a long bench with support wings mounted at the same level. I have tons of wasted space behind the wings. The new station will have the saw sitting below the left and right table with removable fences. Integrating both saws on the same station will require a fairly deep station.

Thoughts, suggestions, ideas would be appreciated.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Sliding miter saws are the modern day radial arm saw. More accurate, less parts to get out of whack, safer. Not that theres anything wrong with them.

The only thing you can do with most RAS's that you cant do with a SMS is rip material.

Ill put it this way, you if had a RAS already I wouldnt go out and buy a SMS. Likewise, the opposite would be my opinion. If you have both and are looking for extra room Id get rid of the RAS.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

As far as integrating them, if you were with out a table saw I could see that as a worthwhile idea. Otherwise, it doesnt make sense to have two tools set up side by side that basically do the same thing.

JMHO.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I have both of those saws*

My 10"/12" Craftsman is set up with extended support on the left side and I use it consistently for 90 degree cross cuts. It has vac ports off the blade and behind the blade and gets almost all the dust. I love it.

My Dewalt 708 12" CSMS has it's own 1 1/2" MDF base and sits on the bench out of the way until I need a special angle or bevel I can't saw on the table saw using a sled or Incra precision miter gauge.

So I favor the RAS and table saw over the CSMS. The RAS will also cut dados with the proper set, something the CSMS will not do. I also don't like the fully exposed 12" blade when cutting small pieces and would always use my tablesaw sled.

You could make a long support table for the RAS with a removable panel where the CSMS would set in and be flush with the top. I see many more CSMS built into long support tables than RASs except in a commercial shop where the RAS is used extensively.

It's a toss up really. :blink:

I see the CSMS as slightly more of job site or contractor saw than for fine woodworking. I also have a 10" Bosch which is light enough to hump around in the pickup, where the Dewalt 12" is a bit of a heavy lift.


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## Tom King (Nov 22, 2013)

I use both. RAS is a 12" Craftsman I bought new in 1974. I've had it fine tuned for a couple of decades, and haven't touched the adjustments since. I only use it for very accurate crosscutting at 90 degrees. It's much better at cutting tenon shoulders than the sliding miter saw. It also gets used for accurate cutting to length of multiples. I don't use it for rough cutting on anything that has much chance for locking the blade up, which can easily waste all the effort put into getting it to cut perfectly. Because I have this saw, a sled on the table saw only very rarely gets used.

I also have, and use more, a Dewalt 12" slider. It gets used for anything anyone uses such a saw for. Having it saves the RAS for accurate work, but it still does just fine for trimming out a house, or cutting crown molding.

Either can cut pretty accurately, but I've never had to touch anything that comes off the RAS with the shooting board.

Rough stuff gets cut to length with a circular saw.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I like my old dewalt RAS' s. like to find a 18 or 20" one too. 

I have 3 ras and a kapex. i use the ras's in the shop 95% of the time.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I have a Dewalt radial arm saw (Model 1030).....and I wouldn't trade it for any miter saw on earth. 

Then again, I still have a miter saw for things like trim work......it works perfect for things like that. 

In a perfect world...I'd have a Table Saw, Radial Arm Saw, Miter Saw and Panel Saw.....all in that order


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## peridigm (Dec 29, 2014)

So I decided to keep both saws and build a new station. I've spent the better part of the weekend building the cabinets and tops. I had some scrap MDF and laminate laying around so I screwed the MDF together, wrapped it in some pine, and laminated it. Today just before quitting time I was able to mount the tops, cut the t-track slots, and mock-up the miter saw. Pretty much just leveling everything up at this point. I love the 8020 material for the fences. The miter saw will be movable. Since it's a slider, it really takes up a lot of room. If I turn it to 45, I can slide it back so the back stop of the RAS will clear it giving me room to cut long stock on the RAS should I need to. I plan on keeping a ripping blade in it for rough cutting. I will have plenty of storage underneath with a series of drawers and doors. Here are a couple of pics. I think it's coming together nicely.


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## Dovetails (Jun 8, 2014)

That's pretty slick. You could put a dado blade on the RAS for rabbits/dado's and you'd be set.

But how are you going to protect that nice table top under the RAS blade?


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

peridigm said:


> Right. So my purpose of this thread is to hear from long timers who have used both and whether I need to have both in my shop. I own a DeWalt DW708 12" compound miter and a barely used(purchased by my father) Craftsman 10" radial arm with a 16" travel. Currently, use the DW708 for just about all cross cutting. .


If you got 16" of travel that means you can lift up and possibly squeak out 18 to 20" of cut before having to flip the piece over to get more. 

You can't get near that capacity with the Dewalt. :no:

If you plan to spend any time or effort building a nice fence system you would be best served to plan that around the RAS you have. It will be able to do more for you in the long run.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

peridigm said:


> So I decided to keep both saws and build a new station. I've spent the better part of the weekend building the cabinets and tops. I had some scrap MDF and laminate laying around so I screwed the MDF together, wrapped it in some pine, and laminated it. Today just before quitting time I was able to mount the tops, cut the t-track slots, and mock-up the miter saw. Pretty much just leveling everything up at this point. I love the 8020 material for the fences. The miter saw will be movable. Since it's a slider, it really takes up a lot of room. If I turn it to 45, I can slide it back so the back stop of the RAS will clear it giving me room to cut long stock on the RAS should I need to. I plan on keeping a ripping blade in it for rough cutting. I will have plenty of storage underneath with a series of drawers and doors. Here are a couple of pics. I think it's coming together nicely.


nice! what are the dust collection plans?


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## peridigm (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm going to use another piece of 8020 between the miter and ras. Then have a stationary fence for the ras section.

I've thought about what to do about the ras and the nice fresh top. I think I will cut out a section and make a few zero clearance inserts so I can use a regular blade and dado blade.

Not shown in the picture above is a 4" PVC pipe for my DC. I need to drop a y fitting and connect a hose to each saw.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Well I'm a long timer. I started woodworking in the 60s. We used to use a RAS on the job site. But only to cut the end of a board straight. It was one of those heavy DeWalt models. It wouldn't go from 90 to another angle and back to 90 and remain square. So for shop use it's not much help. They never have been the most accurate tools. 

I would sell it and with the proceeds buy a tool you don't currently have. 

Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*wait, don't sell it1*



Al B Thayer said:


> Well I'm a long timer. I started woodworking in the 60s. We used to use a RAS on the job site. But only to cut the end of a board straight. It was one of those heavy DeWalt models. It wouldn't go from 90 to another angle and back to 90 and remain square. So for shop use it's not much help. They never have been the most accurate tools.
> 
> *I would sell it and with the proceeds buy a tool you don't currently have.*
> 
> Al


If he sells it he could buy a radial arm saw... just sayin'

Just like a table saw sled improves the accuracy, a sled or miter jig can make your "inaccurate" RAS accurate. :blink:

Leave the arm set to 90 degrees and then make a miter jig for your angles rather than moving the arm. 
There are a few ways to do this. One is a pinned or doweled board that is set to 45 degrees. The other is a protractor type arm that has the degrees marked off, pivoting at one end near the blade. 

I have a few RAS, all 12" Craftsman's excet one 10" and actually the carriage rails, arm and carriage are all the same. The motor is the only difference, 12" runs on 220V only usually. This allows you to switch out the motor carriages, a dado set, a carriage mounted router and a 3rd with a combination blade.... all interchangeable on the same arm.

It's a versatile machine and if you find one that remains accurate, a great tool to have. I use mine to square the ends of boards and cross cut long pieces to length.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I've got a 12" delta ras for cutting panels and drawer fronts for most my kitchen cabinets(very accurate). The Dewalt 12" 708 for unique angles and a 10" miter saw for general 90 degree cuts like face frames.

I traded a 10" Delta for the 12" Delta RAS. Best move i ever made:yes:...


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

The way I look at it all the people that have never used a radial arm saw that give it a bad rap are doing the rest of us a big favor by keeping the price down. 
At the price some of the used ones go for they can be set up for a specific function in a production shop and just left that way.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I wouldn't give up my 1950's dewalt radial arm saw for anything.


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## tewitt1949 (Nov 26, 2013)

I've got a craftman 10 in RAS and a Hitichi sliding compound miter saw. I have them both set up on one wall with a common table. I also have a sears 10 table saw. I use all three all the time. The miter saw is portable if needed.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

People just needed something to pick on:thumbdown:, so the RAS became it. It was the boat anchor of the internet.

Everybody was blinded by the "SLIDER". But it wasn't a miter saw or RAS, but an inbetweener:yes:....


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> They never have been the most accurate tools.
> 
> I would sell it and with the proceeds buy a tool you don't currently have.
> 
> Al





I think this sums it up pretty well, although it looks as if the OP has chosen to keep his RAS.

Theres a reason you can buy craftsman RAS's all day long for $50 on CL.


To you guys that swear by your RAS's Im happy for you. IMHO though, its kind of unethical to discourage newer better technology just because of your love for old technology.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Did someone say 8020?








I used the 3" by 1 1/2" for my rails. Can't begin to tell you all the stuff I've made with 8020.








This is my flip stop. Also 8020.

Keep posting the pics 

Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*new technology?*

What do you mean, new technology? Linear bearings? 
Ball bearings will never be "obsolete" in my opinion....
Most, if not all RAS use a sliding carriage running on rails using ball bearings. You can adjust them for play because they mount on axles using a cam adjustment. 

If your RAS is sloppy or doesn't track true, you can adjust it. No excuse for keeping a saw that ain't set up right, whether it's a RAS or table saw. :no:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> People just needed something to pick on:thumbdown:, so the RAS became it. It was the boat anchor of the internet.
> 
> Everybody was blinded by the "SLIDER". But it wasn't a miter saw or RAS, but an inbetweener:yes:....


Your leaving out the part about how it can be a real finger slicer. The way the blade spins you have to make a "climb cut" to use it. 

But for all of you guys that love them. Cut away.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> The way I look at it all the people that have never used a radial arm saw that give it a bad rap are doing the rest of us a big favor by keeping the price down.
> At the price some of the used ones go for they can be set up for a specific function in a production shop and just left that way.


Great idea.

Al


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

To you guys that swear by your RAS's Im happy for you. IMHO though, its kind of unethical to discourage newer better technology just because of your love for old technology.[/QUOTE]

Old/new not the problem. I'll put my 15yr old Delta 220v 12 RAS up against any slider anyday. This saw was used in a production shop cutting face frames for yrs before I got it. We have several sliders at work. Each has had its problems from switches to accuracy problems.

A 10" Craftsman saw is NOT a 12" Delta or larger RAS. many have used 10" RAS saws that just don't work for accuracy.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*it's about the blade*

Back in the 60's and 70's there only positive hook blades, which are not the best on a RAS, but fine on the tablesaw. They wanted to "climb cut" so you had to stiff arm the carriage in use.

People didn't know the difference back then. Now we have negative hook blades which are much safer on miter saws and radial arm saws.

Also the RAS has a fully "exposed" blade when the guard is either not on or when it's in the raised position...not good for cutting small parts hand held. People didn't understand Murphy's Law will prevail especially to an inexperienced operator. The 14" and 16" RAS in the lumber yards that I saw, only had a blade "cover", not a guard as such, that enclosed the blade when not cutting.

It was indeed "overmarketed" as a one tool shop and people used it for all sorts of operations with questionable safety procedures and missing guards.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Your leaving out the part about how it can be a real finger slicer. The way the blade spins you have to make a "climb cut" to use it.
> 
> But for all of you guys that love them. Cut away.
> 
> Al


How so?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Back in the 60's and 70's there only positive hook blades, which are not the best on a RAS, but fine on the tablesaw. They wanted to "climb cut" so you had to stiff arm the carriage in use.
> 
> People didn't know the difference back then. Now we have negative hook blades which are much safer on miter saws and radial arm saws.
> 
> ...


Agree:yes:. I just use mine to cut drawer and panel stock. I'd kill my slider doing this all the time. Its a workhorse...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*tablesaw vs radial arm saw blade physics*

On the tablesaw the first teeth to enter the work press it down onto the table and that keeps it in place to some extent.

On a RAS the teeth enter the work from above and tend to lift it off the table so you have to hold it down securely. 

A negative hook blade will alleviate that to a great extent.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Did someone say 8020?
> View attachment 125609
> 
> 
> ...


Your tape is on upside down (that is the tape that is 'supposed' to go on the right side of the blade) and you have no adjustment / tuner for your flip stop that I can see. Your cuts will be off if you ever change blade thickness / type.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Rebelwork said:


> How so?


I failed to understand any of that either... :no:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

These are the only ones I use..


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I fail to understand that also....


Rebelwork said:


> These are the only ones I use..


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

In reply to the 8020


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Your tape is on upside down (that is the tape that is 'supposed' to go on the right side of the blade) and you have no adjustment / tuner for your flip stop that I can see. Your cuts will be off if you ever change blade thickness / type.


Indeed, the tape would feel awkward. They make the stick on tapes that read left to right, and right to left. He's got the wrong one. Turn it end for end and it still works. On the flip stop, I would cut it so that there is a space between the stop and the table and fence so that sawdust doesn't pack up and progressively shorten the cuts. I like the idea of the flip stop, but see it as a source of play and inaccuracy. I don't see a way to tighten it to make it secure like the Biesmeyer with a screw and locknut to fine tune the saw to cut to the accurate lengths.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> The way the blade spins you have to make a "climb cut" to use it.


i have had wood, that when cutting on a ras, begins to pinch the blade. the blade spin direction send the saw/carriage out toward you faster than you can react. this may be what Al is referring to.

you MUST have a firm grip on the handle at all times, and your other hand out of the line of cut. once you have that happen to you, you will remember it.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> How so?


The blade on the RAS is coming over the top down into the wood. It's like running a climb cut with the router. Sometimes needed but not the preferred direction of cut.

The RAS can climb right up the board. It's a self feed cut you control by keeping the saw from running on its own.

Al


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## peridigm (Dec 29, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> Did someone say 8020?
> View attachment 125609
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you get the block of aluminum with the thumbscrew?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*wrong balde... again*



Al B Thayer said:


> The blade on the RAS is coming over the top down into the wood. It's like running a climb cut with the router. Sometimes needed but not the preferred direction of cut.
> 
> The RAS can climb right up the board. It's a self feed cut you control by keeping the saw from running on its own.
> 
> Al



It can NOT "climb" up on top of the wood, there ain't enough room and the arm won't bend. It may "self feed" faster than you were prepared for, but if that happens you are using a positive hook blade. :thumbdown:

Things have changed since 1985, we now have zero hook and negative hook blades designed especially for sliding miter saws and radial arm saws. Don't let the ghost stories of the past haunt you today. 

Radial arm saw blade:
http://www.amazon.com/Oshlun-SBW-10...2995573&sr=1-1&keywords=radial+arm+saw+blades


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

As pointed out...it will not climb on top of the board. It can if your not holding it well jam the blade and trip the breaker, but it won't hop over the board.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*radial arm saw blade description*

http://www.amazon.com/Oshlun-SBW-100...arm+saw+blades

Size: *60 Tooth Neg Sliding Miter*
*Product Description*

*From the Manufacturer*

Our sliding miter and radial arm blades have been designed for cutting all types of hardwood, softwood, and plywood with sliding miter and radial arm saws. *They feature precision ground micro grain carbide tips, a thin kerf, and a negative hook angle for added safety.* Great for crosscutting applications where a smooth cut is needed.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Loved my Sears Cabinet maker RAS but when the motor went it was time to move on. The CMS is good but still isn't the same.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Old Skhool said:


> Indeed, the tape would feel awkward. They make the stick on tapes that read left to right, and right to left. He's got the wrong one. Turn it end for end and it still works. On the flip stop, I would cut it so that there is a space between the stop and the table and fence so that sawdust doesn't pack up and progressively shorten the cuts. I like the idea of the flip stop, but see it as a source of play and inaccuracy. I don't see a way to tighten it to make it secure like the Biesmeyer with a screw and locknut to fine tune the saw to cut to the accurate lengths.


Completely agree with you on all points. 

I think it 'could' be made adjustable with the proper metal shims added (or removed) between the actual stop itself and the aluminum mount but without some sort of shims to be able to adjust it - I could not use it for very long before getting irritated. :no:

THIS is adjustable, accurate, easy to use and can be used on either side of the blade with the same accuracy and ease. 










With a few tweaks and mods - Al's stop could be just as good but look a lot more gooder... :yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Completely agree with you on all points.
> 
> I think it 'could' be made adjustable with the proper metal shims added (or removed) between the actual stop itself and the aluminum mount but without some sort of shims to be able to adjust it - I could not use it for very long before getting irritated. :no:
> 
> ...


Not sure why or how my stop needs improved. Unlike the pictured Bies my stop is a flip stop. Those Bies stops have been replaced by the flip type for obvious reasons. My cursor is a very thin line and the stop makes perfectly accurate repeatable cuts. The flip allows you to cut the first end and then place that cut against the stop and make the second cut. Giving you a square cut on both ends without having to move the stop. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> It can NOT "climb" up on top of the wood, there ain't enough room and the arm won't bend. It may "self feed" faster than you were prepared for, but if that happens you are using a positive hook blade. :thumbdown:
> 
> Things have changed since 1985, we now have zero hook and negative hook blades designed especially for sliding miter saws and radial arm saws. Don't let the ghost stories of the past haunt you today.
> 
> ...


It's still a climb cut. And I have seen the saw climb up the board. It's the type of saw that if you don't warn the person using it. Their going to most likely "jam" their first cut.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

peridigm said:


> Where did you get the block of aluminum with the thumbscrew?


It's an 8020 knuckle they use to mount angled panels with. I think they use them for bifold doors too. EBay $9.00.

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Your tape is on upside down (that is the tape that is 'supposed' to go on the right side of the blade) and you have no adjustment / tuner for your flip stop that I can see. Your cuts will be off if you ever change blade thickness / type.


That was the only tape I had in my shop at the time. Would you like to see a picture of the stop after the left reading tape came in? 

Best off if you ask questions first rather than assuming. The micro adjustments are on the board that holds the tape. See that's the beauty of the 8020 material. It has slots in the back too. 

Thanks Mr Obvious 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

That old style stop has been up graded to this flip style. Someone needs to get their shop up to speed.











Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Old Skhool said:


> Indeed, the tape would feel awkward. They make the stick on tapes that read left to right, and right to left. He's got the wrong one. Turn it end for end and it still works. On the flip stop, I would cut it so that there is a space between the stop and the table and fence so that sawdust doesn't pack up and progressively shorten the cuts. I like the idea of the flip stop, but see it as a source of play and inaccuracy. I don't see a way to tighten it to make it secure like the Biesmeyer with a screw and locknut to fine tune the saw to cut to the accurate lengths.


Again, posting on the fly will get you in trouble. There is a space on the bottom for dust. There is no play or I wouldn't use it.








See there is a brass bushing that allows me to tighten the stop and still flip it over and over. Unlike the Bies. When it wares I can just replace the bushing. The Bies just becomes a wobbly stop. The bolt is a shoulder bolt. It only tightens to a certain length and then stops. This keeps from tightening down on the flip stop. I also used mahogany wood because it has very very little movement.

Sorry "old school" I'm smarter than you think.

Al B Thayer


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> It can NOT "climb" up on top of the wood, there ain't enough room and the arm won't bend. It may "self feed" faster than you were prepared for, but if that happens you are using a positive hook blade. :thumbdown:
> 
> Things have changed since 1985, we now have zero hook and negative hook blades designed especially for sliding miter saws and radial arm saws. Don't let the ghost stories of the past haunt you today.
> 
> ...


That's funny, I have one of those blades and the saw still climbs a board. The craftsman saw I have just doesn't have the HP and strength to do anything else. It's why I bought a 16" Dewalt saw.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

peridigm said:


> ............I've thought about what to do about the ras and the nice fresh top. I think I will cut out a section and make a few zero clearance inserts so I can use a regular blade and dado blade.....


maybe easier and more flexible. just use double sided tape to stick a piece of sacrificial 1/4" mdf to the entire existing table. when it gets too badly chewed up, peel it off and reapply a new piece for a completely fresh table. that's how i do it. just my $.02.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*OK, then*



Steve Neul said:


> That's funny, I have one of those blades and the saw still climbs a board. The craftsman saw I have just doesn't have the HP and strength to do anything else. It's why I bought a 16" Dewalt saw.


Post a picture of the saw "climbing" a board so we all see. Then put the saw by the roadside with a sign "climbing RAS" and see if it disappears. If it is still there after a week, I will stop over and adjust it or replace the carriage bearings.... 



HP is probably not an issue, unless your's is seriously
underpowered. I have 5 of those Cman RAS saws, and all but 2 are the 12", not the 10". The motors come in several different flavors ... 220V only, 120 V only and 120V or 220V. The 120V only does seem to have less power than the 220v motors. A 16" blade would scare the bejesus out of me... just sayin'


It may tend to "self feed" as I said earlier, but it won't climb unless your saw has special abilities. Are you sating the 16" Dewalt doesn't self feed to some extent? What's the hook angle on that saw blade?
It could be that the greater radius blade enters the work at a more favorable angle.

My Infinity Tools catalog came today showing this blade:
http://www.infinitytools.com/Radial-Arm-Saw/products/1268/

I guess, after all this discussion, if you have one and like it keep it.
If you don't have one and don't like it, then you are conflicted and need help. 
If you have one and and don't like it, sell it, or put it out by the road on trash day.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Again, posting on the fly will get you in trouble. There is a space on the bottom for dust. There is no play or I wouldn't use it.
> View attachment 125849
> 
> 
> ...


Since when does a beisemeyer wobble? Are you sure your not posting on the fly?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> The flip allows you to cut the first end and then place that cut against the stop and make the second cut. Giving you a square cut on both ends without having to move the stop.
> 
> Al


Why would you have to move the stop?


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## Old Skhool (Oct 31, 2009)

Al B Thayer said:


> Again, posting on the fly will get you in trouble. There is a space on the bottom for dust. There is no play or I wouldn't use it.
> View attachment 125849
> 
> 
> ...


You showed the picture in post 21. No gaps for sawdust relief, wrong tape used. Your method works for you and you do nice work, my methods work for me, perhaps we might explore methods some day. I enjoy a lighthearted conversation, be glad to talk with you in a relaxed mode if something is up. I may even share a method or 2, and you of course can do the same. Really sorry you feel the need to speak up for your intelligence. Me, I just poured 7-up in my coffee instead of cream this morning. Just a wee bit, the last of the coffee, I figured hmm, lots of sugar in 7-up, I'll try it. Don't, it's awful. lol:laughing: 

I'm just a regular old dude that has no illusions of grandeur. Smarter than some, dumber than others, but enjoy learning.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Since when does a beisemeyer wobble? Are you sure your not posting on the fly?


Okay, we're talking about a flip stop. Something that will ware out with no means to repair by replacing a bushing. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Old Skhool said:


> You showed the picture in post 21. No gaps for sawdust relief, wrong tape used. Your method works for you and you do nice work, my methods work for me, perhaps we might explore methods some day. I enjoy a lighthearted conversation, be glad to talk with you in a relaxed mode if something is up. I may even share a method or 2, and you of course can do the same. Really sorry you feel the need to speak up for your intelligence. Me, I just poured 7-up in my coffee instead of cream this morning. Just a wee bit, the last of the coffee, I figured hmm, lots of sugar in 7-up, I'll try it. Don't, it's awful. lol:laughing:
> 
> I'm just a regular old dude that has no illusions of grandeur. Smarter than some, dumber than others, but enjoy learning.


Well I answered all the so called problems. There is a gap and the tape was temp and not stuck in place. I find it very disheartening the way you and Oneal carried on as if the stop was made by some piker. Also puzzled why you would post in such a way without asking questions. Like "hey All", why's the tape upside down ? "Is there a gap to..... 

As it turns out It has all the features of the store bought and then some. 

Al B Thayer


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Rebelwork said:


> Since when does a beisemeyer wobble? Are you sure your not posting on the fly?


They don't. Even after a lot of years of hard use they just don't... And one never has to replace any sort of bushings on them either as they age. :no:

They literally can last forever if 'half-way' cared for. (and can be used on BOTH sides of the fence accurately and dependably every single time)

Guessing that YOU already know this stuff though. :thumbsup:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Why would you have to move the stop?


I guess if you don't see any merit in having a stop with a flip option. By all means buy the old version if it's still sold. But pretty much all of them have gone to a flip style for many good reasons. One being you can cut a long board without moving the stop. 

Al


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

OnealWoodworking said:


> They don't. Even after a lot of years of hard use they just don't... And one never has to replace any sort of bushings on them either as they age. :no:
> 
> They literally can last forever if 'half-way' cared for. (and can be used on BOTH sides of the fence accurately and dependably every single time)
> 
> Guessing that YOU already know this stuff though. :thumbsup:


I believe yours is the old fashioned one without the flip stop. So right yours won't ware out. And you will have to remove it and reset it. But hey, bang the drum.

Al


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Rebelwork said:


> Why would you have to move the stop?


One should NOT have to move anything to get a square cut on both ends. 

A flip stop is good on something like a boring machine where you would want the flip arm to set the proper spacing for the first set of holes and then be able to flip it up and out of the way as you continue to bore your holes down the length of the piece but for a chop saw it is not needed at all to get a square cut on both ends.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Unnecessary comment removed


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> I believe yours is the old fashioned one without the flip stop. So right yours won't ware out. And you will have to remove it and reset it. But hey, bang the drum.
> 
> Al


If you get spare time please educate me on WHY one would choose to have a flip stop on their chop saw fence system as compared to an 'old fashioned' one like mine (that never wears out) and why that would somehow make things 'better'. 

NOT picking on you Al, Just trying to understand how that choice is any better or how it can make my work easier or faster OR more accurate. 

How is that choice of stops going to save me time or make my job easier when using it on a chop saw?

Please 'educate' my dumb ass. :thumbsup:

If you wish - We can pretend that one will only work on that one side of the fence at all times and NEVER 'need' or 'want' to use the same stop on the other side... We can pretend that my 'old fashioned' stop is only good on one side of the blade so that at least that much will be equal here in comparison... :smile:

FWIW - I have and use 'flip stops' every other day but NOT on the chop saw as there is no 'need' for that there with what I do... I can provide pics of the 'flip stops' that I DO use if you wish and show you the machine they are used on (and explain WHY they are important for those particular machine operations). The ones I use are 'old fashioned' (more than 15 yrs old?) but have never needed ANY maintenance or replacement parts to still be accurate and solid. My 'old fashioned' flip stops are also designed so that sawdust buildup can never be an issue...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Unnecessary comments removed.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*off the rails*

Why has this thread become another battle of the brains on WWT? The last umpteen posts have nothinng to do with the OP's question whether to keep the RAS. 


The blade discussion and the climbing issue at least had something to do with the RAS and safety. Now we are totally "off the rails". Come on guys......


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Unnecessary comment removed


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## peridigm (Dec 29, 2014)

I've learned some things from the additional posts. First, I had no idea there were different blades for RAS. Second, Al replied to my question about the 8020 nib I needed to create my flip stop. Lastly, Miter vs RAS discussions are much like discussing religion.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Unnecessary comment removed


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> I believe yours is the old fashioned one without the flip stop. So right yours won't ware out. And you will have to remove it and reset it. But hey, bang the drum.
> 
> Al


As I asked before. Why would I have to remove it to cut both ends?....


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> Long ago that became a moot point when he posted that he decided to keep it and posted pictures of his redone station. Everything after that was irrelevant to the topic.


 
If someone suggests a way that he can improve or somehow 'better' the station that he built - That is 'on topic' for this member and his situation. 

If you see something in a picture that is obviously 'wonky' to you - How are you 'helping' that member by not saying anything? 

To really 'help' someone - sometimes it is good to offer advice as to how they can improve it / make it safer / make it faster / make it more easy / make it more accurate / etc. 

If this member has five different guys giving him advice and it ends up being five 'different' ways to do the same thing - Does he learn more or less in the process before making his own decision in the end?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Oh don't get me wrong...I think 95% of this thread is relevant topic, but the ops original question was should he keep the radial arm saw...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> Post a picture of the saw "climbing" a board so we all see. Then put the saw by the roadside with a sign "climbing RAS" and see if it disappears. If it is still there after a week, I will stop over and adjust it or replace the carriage bearings....


Bill, I had a Cman RAS that did the same thing, it actually climbed on top of the board, no joke. I got rid of the saw and bought a 1957 Dewalt 16 inch RAS 5 hp 220, it never climbed on top of a board. I don't know what was wrong with the Cman saw and after it did that I didn't care, it was gone.

Man this bickering sure gets old.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If you say it happened, I'm sure it did....*

I don't know how or why because the blade would have to rise onto the board the thickness of the board. If it was a 1/4" thick board then quite possibly it could rise that much, but even then the saw was way out of adjustment. There are so many adjustments and places for "play or slop" on the saw, a combination of all of them being out of spec could allow it to happen.

I have no doubt that a Delta or Rockwell is a much better saw than a Craftsman, but even the lowly Craftsman had their good and bad models. The earliest one I have is about a 1960's and it has the carriage "rails" cast into the arm, unlike the 70's and 80's models that separate bolt on steel rods as rails. 
This one is a "display" model I inherited, and I don't use it. 

The center pivot mechanism is a bit touchy to adjust also. And if one forgot to tighten that up, there would be enough play to have an issue. The carriage bearings don't have the greatest tolerances either. The arm could have sufficient play at the column end it may move up or down when lifted because the elevation screw had some play in the gears. The crank can be lowered and then raised so the lash is taken out, rather than raised then lowered. A combination of all these issues could lead to a climber for sure.

All the "bickering" may annoy you or others, but for me it's been done with respect so far. I meant no harm or disrespect in my post to Steve, I was just joking. :yes:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> I don't know how or why because the blade would have to rise onto the board the thickness of the board. If it was a 1/4" thick board then quite possibly it could rise that much, but even then the saw was way out of adjustment. There are so many adjustments and places for "play or slop" on the saw, a combination of all of them being out of spec could allow it to happen.
> 
> I have no doubt that a Delta or Rockwell is a much better saw than a Craftsman, but even the lowly Craftsman had their good and bad models. The earliest one I have is about a 1960's and it has the carriage "rails" cast into the arm, unlike the 70's and 80's models that separate bolt on steel rods as rails.
> This one is a "display" model I inherited, and I don't use it.
> ...


Bill it has been so long ago I don't remember what actually moved when it climbed up on the board but it was a 1X, I do remember that. LOL

I do apologize for misunderstanding what I perceived as bickering was just a good ribbing.


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## 1Joe (May 14, 2014)

Chamfer said:


> I think this sums it up pretty well, although it looks as if the OP has chosen to keep his RAS.
> 
> Theres a reason you can buy craftsman RAS's all day long for $50 on CL.
> 
> ...


Well, I've got both a 10" RAS and a 12" CSMS set up side by side and I use them both about equally. It seems the bad rap that RAS have is generated by those people who don't have the desire to learn to use them properly. As far as buying craftsman RAS's all day long for $50, well, that's just INCORRECT. Fact of the matter is, around KC, you cant buy any woodworking tool on CL for less than what a brand new one would cost you. Just saying.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

you can find good deals on CL but you have to be ready to jump when it comes. If its a deal ,gone in an hour.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

1Joe said:


> Well, I've got both a 10" RAS and a 12" CSMS set up side by side and I use them both about equally. It seems the bad rap that RAS have is generated by those people who don't have the desire to learn to use them properly. As far as buying craftsman RAS's all day long for $50, well, that's just INCORRECT. Fact of the matter is, around KC, you cant buy any woodworking tool on CL for less than what a brand new one would cost you. Just saying.


What the heck, might was well keep this thread going a bit farther south.

Depends where you live, I have seen Dewalts for $50 on CL around here.


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## tewitt1949 (Nov 26, 2013)

I only assume when someone says it climbes the wood they mean catches and stops the blade? If so, I was talking to the tech guy at Forrest saw blades. and he said "O God. Please... never use a blade with less than 40 tooth on a radial arm saw." He says its very dangerous and the saw will catch/jam (stop the blade)in the wood. Use 40 tooth or more.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the meaning of words*

climb means:
walks up on top of the workpiece OR
self feeds because of the blade tooth angle OR
because the operator does not control the rate of feed of the saw carriage

Usually the saw will stop or jamb before it can climb up on top of the work piece. If the saw is not properly adjusted and there is excessive play in any or all of the sliding and pivoting mechanisms, it may climb on top of the workpiece.

A "climb" cut is where the blade self feeds, but there is no consequence because the operator has the saw carriage under control. 

a jamb is where the blade self feeds excessively and stops or jambs before cutting all the way through. 

The number of teeth in the blade will play a role in all of the above as well as the tooth angle. A rip blade or one with 40 teeth or less will be more prone to self feed and or jamb when cross cutting.

Horse power can play a role in a jamb or a climb cut. If the blade slows down too much it will stop cutting and jamb. 

Any RAS owners should always check for vertical play in the arm and column by grasping the end of the column ad lifting it off the bench. If it moves at all, you need to determine why and adjust it. The carriage bearings may be worn or not adjusted correctly. On the Craftsman saws these bearings have a "V" groove on the sides rather than a flat, and they self center on the steel rails on either side of the arm. There are replacements on EBay. The left side bearings are mounted on cams that can be adjusted to take up any play from side to side in the travel of the carriage. There should be no side play in the carriage.

Then you need to see if the carriage itself can move vertically on the arm. Do this by lifting it from the bottom and check for any movement, either vertically, horizontally or in rotation. Always make certain the pivot lock is working and the bevel tip stop is working and the locking lever is working.


The RAS is a complex piece of machinery as well as complicated to operate IF you don't know what you are doing. You need to fully read the operator's manual and watching some You Tube videos about safe operation. 

The Craftsman RAS have a feature that few are aware of. The carriage motor and yoke including the "V' groove bearings can be taken off by removing the retaining bolt near the operator. A carriage from another Craftsman RAS can be install as easily for different operations or with a different blade like a dado. If you should own 2 RASs you can use one as the primary and just swap out the carriages, saving floor space if that is an issue. I have several and so does
another friend. They are often on Craigs List for around $100. 

You can mount a router in the yoke to get a RAR, radial arm router:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Unnecessary comment removed


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Unnecessary comment removed


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Why has this thread become another battle of the brains on WWT? The last umpteen posts have nothinng to do with the OP's question whether to keep the RAS.
> 
> 
> The blade discussion and the climbing issue at least had something to do with the RAS and safety. Now we are totally "off the rails". Come on guys......


I asked the mods nicely to handle the personal attacks and put downs. Oneal and robo Ryan just can't help themselves. I'm sick of both there constant crap they post using my name. 


Al

_And the mods have acted time and time again, some of the reports were unwarranted._ mod


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I don't know how or why because the blade would have to rise onto the board the thickness of the board. If it was a 1/4" thick board then quite possibly it could rise that much, but even then the saw was way out of adjustment. There are so many adjustments and places for "play or slop" on the saw, a combination of all of them being out of spec could allow it to happen.
> 
> I have no doubt that a Delta or Rockwell is a much better saw than a Craftsman, but even the lowly Craftsman had their good and bad models. The earliest one I have is about a 1960's and it has the carriage "rails" cast into the arm, unlike the 70's and 80's models that separate bolt on steel rods as rails.
> This one is a "display" model I inherited, and I don't use it.
> ...


Well when I saw the guy do it on our saw. it was a old DeWalt and the blade actually bent sideways to the left. He also wasn't making a full cut on a 2 by. Another time the saw was left running and rolled into the board as the guy was putting the board in place. At that point the boss asked him to just be the guy on the end.

GEES!


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I don't think anyone is out to intentionally attack anyone just trying to sort fact from personal opinion.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Unnecessary comment removed.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*well at least some of us...*



Rebelwork said:


> I don't think anyone is out to intentionally attack anyone just trying to sort fact from personal opinion.


There are no "facts" in woodworking, only opinions.... :laughing:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> There are no "facts" in woodworking, only opinions.... :laughing:


Your entitled to your opinion


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't get it*



Al B Thayer said:


> Well when I saw the guy do it on our saw. it was a old DeWalt and the blade actually bent sideways to the left. He also wasn't making a full cut on a 2 by.
> 
> 
> Another time the saw was left running and rolled into the board as the guy was putting the board in place. At that point the boss asked him to just be the guy on the end.
> ...


Are you suggesting the distance from the bottom of the blade in the kerf of the table has changed because the blade climbed on top of the work that would mean a serious breakage of the column or the arm. You said the blade bent which is the only other possibility. I'll betcha that was a 5 HP saw to do that.

If the saw rolled into the work while the operator wasn't paying attention that would suggest the table and the entire saw was facing downhill, OR the vibration from an out of balance setup caused the carriage to move, neither of which is SAFE, never mind the operator's mistake.

While either condition is possible I would say it would be highly unlikely, not saying it couldn't happen, just a remote possibility and not a concern for the average woodworker. Machines that aren't setup properly will almost always cause an issue. 

I worked in a facility that had a woodshop the size of a basketball court and a separate mill room where only a few were allowed to operate the equipment, a Union shop. You didn't break the safety rules or you would get a shorter lunch break :thumbdown:.... down from 2 hrs to 1 hr and 45 minutes. :no: There was a strict division of labor within the union and those who repaired the machines were millwrights, not woodworkers. The building housed 1000 people, 200 salaried, and around 800 hourly or union.

It is a lot to ask of a woodworker to fully understand the mechanics and physics of each and every machine in their shop, and most do not, that's why there are "accidents".

If you have taken a table saw arbor or motor apart to replace the bearings or centrifugal switch, or replaced the bearings in your planer of jointer, I'd say you are doing well. If you haven't yet, you will someday. :yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Are you suggesting the distance from the bottom of the blade in the kerf of the table has changed because the blade climbed on top of the work that would mean a serious breakage of the column or the arm. You said the blade bent which is the only other possibility. I'll betcha that was a 5 HP saw to do that.
> 
> If the saw rolled into the work while the operator wasn't paying attention that would suggest the table and the entire saw was facing downhill, OR the vibration from an out of balance setup caused the carriage to move, neither of which is SAFE, never mind the operator's mistake.
> 
> ...


We used to set that saw up when we cut our own pre cuts and for cutting floor joists. DeWalt big green machine. It took three guys to move it. The table was a hacked up piece of particle board with a one by fence. The saw rolled like a sled on snow. Just laying a board on it would move the saw. It was great for building houses. But that was back in the 70s.

Al


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I wonder if tools need to be a forbidden subject like politics?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*lol*



Steve Neul said:


> I wonder if tools need to be a forbidden subject like politics?



The other forbidden subject is women. Women are a lot like tools. Some work as designed, function as expected, turn on when needed, stay true to the line, are cooperative, come in various colors, weights and power arrangements, and are nice to look at. Finding the on switch isn't always as easy as finding the off switch.

Others aren't reliable, won't function as designed, are turned off frequently, won't follow a line, are cantankerous, some need constant adjustments, and need lubrication or alcohol frequently, and are just too much trouble to have around. When that's the case it's time to cut the cord. 

One solution, since not any one model is perfect, is to have more than one. That works if there is not a contract, and you can have the best of both worlds. Keeping more than one running can be troublesome if you are not experienced. If you are under contract, keeping more than one will be costly.

Craig's List is a source for used, lightly used or heavy duty models. I'd stay away from the 3 phase models, too complicated and require an inverter. As with tools certain brands are favorites, other are best avoided. Red headed models are prone to flash too quickly. Blondes can be slow to catch on, but reliable once they get started. Brunettes are best kept inside out of the cold temperatures. 

None come with an instruction manual, so you are on your own....just sayin'


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

We should also ban joinery techniques and measuring devices.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

No need to ban the legitimate subjects mentioned, just those who intentionally disrupt them consistently, making unnecessary remarks, which are of no value to anyone.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Just making a joke!! Things like kreg jigs get people all riled up...


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I wonder if tools need to be a forbidden subject like politics?


I don't think tools need to be banned, but they probably bring more trouble than politics.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

These always start a fire.

Fe$tool
biscuit jointers
RAS
Pocket holers
Any finish other than poly.
Cheap tools
Dowels
SawStop
Electrical queries
Any mention of sharpening anything.

What have I left out?

Al


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Usually any tool suggestion.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> These always start a fire. Fe$tool biscuit jointers RAS Pocket holers Any finish other than poly. Cheap tools Dowels SawStop Electrical queries Any mention of sharpening anything. What have I left out? Al


Gas, that always starts a fire


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Gass (the saw stop inventor) will always start a fire.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

hwebb99 said:


> Gass (the saw stop inventor) will always start a fire.


lol

Al


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## vuefromidwest (Aug 26, 2009)

I have a Craftsman radial arm (1976). I use it for 90 degree crosscuts only. It will rip, but that's too dangerous. I also have a mitersaw, and a tablesaw. Happy with what I have..
I would like Chamfers opinion on what newer better technology I'm missing out on though..


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

TimPa said:


> i have had wood, that when cutting on a ras, begins to pinch the blade. the blade spin direction send the saw/carriage out toward you faster than you can react. this may be what Al is referring to.
> 
> you MUST have a firm grip on the handle at all times, and your other hand out of the line of cut. once you have that happen to you, you will remember it.



For perspective: I own 2 vintage RAS and sold my cabinet saw in order to save space -- a wise choice considering that between those 2 RAS' I can do far more operations in less space than I could have hoped for with the TS, plus a number of other tools. I do have a an excellent Bosch SCMS that I use at jobsites, but it is not as accurate, nor does it produce cuts of the same quality as the RAS's, nor can it rip or sport a dado blade or a moulding head, and then there's that amazing amount of depth that the SCMS needs behind it....

What you're describing is one of the results of an poorly tuned RAS. Frankly, anyone who fails to properly tune their TS will also pinch or heel the blade and dangerous kickback is the result. Hysteria-check: Last I heard (insurance bureau stats), the TS was the single most dangerous tool in the entire shop in terms of numbers of hospital visits, and that's why SawStop exists. The RAS tuning process is demanding, but is easier than a TS because it is all easily accessible, except that there is a 3rd degree of freedom to be adjusted which is one more setting than adjusted on a TS -- in the end they are about the same in terms of time and pain and suffering.

Once set correctly, a *quality* RAS is an amazingly accurate tool, and it will hold those settings for a long time. One of the oft-overlooked benefits of the RAS is that in a standard configuration, it easily and safely performs horizontal cuts, no special jig needed, ditto for raising panels. As another noted, I will use a miter jig if I have a bunch of angles to cut, but for a one-off I prefer to adjust the workpiece to the desired angle and clamp it down to the table and then make a standard crosscut.

Because the blade IS visible in all cuts, I feel it is safer -- nothing like knowing precisely where the trouble is, unlike a TS, jointer, or router with their buried hungry parts.


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

*Al's right.*



Al B Thayer said:


> Well I answered all the so called problems. There is a gap and the tape was temp and not stuck in place. I find it very disheartening the way you and Oneal carried on as if the stop was made by some piker. Also puzzled why you would post in such a way without asking questions. Like "hey All", why's the tape upside down ? "Is there a gap to.....
> 
> As it turns out It has all the features of the store bought and then some.
> 
> Al B Thayer



Whether Al came off with attitude or not, his point is spot-on. Please ask before shooting, and the whole bunch of you did a fine job of hijacking the thread with a lot of pettiness that was unrelated to the RAS OP. We can do better than that, so back to the ever debatable RAS....


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## DaleMaley (Mar 16, 2012)

*I choose to keep both*

I started woodworking in the early 1980's with a 10 inch 1968 Sears table saw and a 1969 Sears 9 inch radial arm saw.

I never tried a miter saw until about 2005, when I inherited my father-in-laws Makita.

I made a light wood stand for my Makita, and have taken it to many job sites for molding work. It is not a sliding rail type.

I still use my old radial arm saw in my shop, almost every day. It lets me cut boards about 10 inches wide........where the Makita is only good for about 1/2 of that.

I supposed I could buy a sliding rail type radial arm saw, but why replace my trusty RAS.

I also find it easier to temporarily clamp a stop block on my old RAS for cutting many boards to the exact same length. I don't know of an easy way to do this on the Makita.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

We have a DeWalt model GE 16" RAS, kept @ 90 degrees, jig if needed for other. When a cut needs to be wider than our Omga miter saw can do we use a DeWalt compound miter if accuracy isn't a big deal but an SCMI SL16 slider for repetitive dead on cuts. The Omga produces the best cut for small parts.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

vuefromidwest said:


> I have a Craftsman radial arm (1976). I use it for 90 degree crosscuts only. It will rip, but that's too dangerous. I also have a mitersaw, and a tablesaw. Happy with what I have..
> I would like Chamfers opinion on what newer better technology I'm missing out on though..



Well cutting in the right direction for starters. I was mainly talking about the design of todays SCMS's. Its a better safer way to cross cut. Like I said earlier SCMS's are the modern version of RAS's. 

Why dont you use your RAS for anything but 90's?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Well cutting in the right direction for starters. I was mainly talking about the design of todays SCMS's. Its a better safer way to cross cut. Like I said earlier SCMS's are the modern version of RAS's.
> 
> Why dont you use your RAS for anything but 90's?


Not a modern day version of a RAS. Different animal. Miter saw, slider and RAS different. Comparable but not the same


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> Not a modern day version of a RAS. Different animal. Miter saw, slider and RAS different. Comparable but not the same




Opinions differ.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Not an opinion its a fact..


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Yup*



Rebelwork said:


> Not a modern day version of a RAS. Different animal. Miter saw, slider and RAS different. *Comparable but not the same*


The on the SCMS the spinning blade is pushed down and then into and across the work. On the RAS saw, the spinning blade is pulled into the work from behind the fence, at least it should be. On the miter saw the spinning blade is just pushed down into the work.... all involve a different operating procedure.

There are RAS and then there are RAS. :yes:
Some aren't worth a new blade, others are quite accurate and reliable, the older Dewalts, Rockwells, and other larger size units. And at the risk of starting a heated debate, even the older Craftsman RAS can be a good unit. I have several older 12" Craftsman RAS and they work just fine for me..... not every one will have the same appreciation or experience. Keeping them properly adjusted is half the battle and since all the adjustments and bearings are in plain sight, it's not a difficult task, as mentioned above.


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## Just Jim (Apr 6, 2014)

*Radial arm vs miter saw*

I currently have both built in my shop, and rarely use the radial arm. It's a 10" craftsman and the only tool in my shop I am actually afraid of. A 12 or 14 inch might be OK but the 10 self feeds abruptly in any stock thicker than 3/4 inch. I do have the proper negative rake blade installed, but I am honestly considering just getting rid of it. A good 12" miter saw will do anything you want a radial arm to do, and it's a lot safer.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

pooroldjim said:


> I currently have both built in my shop, and rarely use the radial arm. It's a 10" craftsman and the only tool in my shop I am actually afraid of. A 12 or 14 inch might be OK but the 10 self feeds abruptly in any stock thicker than 3/4 inch. I do have the proper negative rake blade installed, but I am honestly considering just getting rid of it. A good 12" miter saw will do anything you want a radial arm to do, and it's a lot safer.


"A 12 or 14 inch might be OK but the 10 self feeds abruptly in any stock thicker than 3/4 inch." 

Thats why I have a 12" RAS:yes:.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

pooroldjim said:


> A good 12" miter saw will do anything you want a radial arm to do, and it's a lot safer.



I can crosscut 14.5 inch panels on my dewalt radial arm saw. Which miter saw can do that with no measurable deflection at full extension. Both the Makita and dewalt sliders I've used were not anywhere near as stable at full extension as my radial arm saw.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Again I don't have a problem with any tool provided information about that tool is accurate. Call it what it is. Anecdotal information is fine but not fact and some here believe the tool they bought and like is going to be the same for everyone. It just doesn't happen that way. We are blinded by our own purchase and of course it was the right purchase. Right? Spending money on a tool has a way of clouding our judgement.

Let's be accurate and truthful and honest. The RAS was made for the construction and manufacturing trades. The saw will cut 10 ways to Sunday. But not very well. By that I mean making a change in the angle of cut and then returning to a perfect 90 is not going to happen over the course of just a few cuts. Unless the accuracy needed was for framing a house. I couldn't use one for trim work and would use the miter saw instead. The RAS has a wood table many made from particle board. This alone takes to tool out of the accuracy slot. They used to have 2 screws pressing the fence against the table. Another bad Idea for accuracy. The stops for the different settings are at the post a very short distance from the pivot point. They wear out. Some can be fixed. But having a stop so close to the pivot makes it too easy to be slightly off true. Miter saws use the furthest distance possible with accurate replaceable stops. And I believe enough was said about the RASs ability to make cuts on it own.


Lastly, many RAS owners have resigned to only cut 90 degree cuts and never move out of that position. And for good reason.

Al


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## ed malcom (Nov 7, 2013)

everyone has different opinions but i use my 10 sears ras daily. I have the 12 dewalt miter saw that is used for trim work and dont like any of the sliders because i dont cut enough wide boards on the job to justify the extra room needed plus the extra weight. Im pretty well retired and have done quality woodworking for 64 years. My playpen is 45 by 76 feet so im not hurting for room. I only use my primary ras for cross cutting and i prefer the 10 inch because my cutting is all small pieces mostly 3/8 thick. Over the years i have seen lots of fingers gone because of stupidity or too much horsepower. I have one ras with a 16 foot long table and another set up with a 20 foot table and a 20 foot long piece of steel chanel iron fastened down and only use it for straightlining lumber. The majority of my cuts are at a point that has to be precise. There are three different sizes and i will not show or tell anyone how the jig was made. I can make a cut every five seconds which would not be possible with anything but the ras. The statement about climbing is easy to believe if you try to use a coarse blade. My blades are in the 92 tooth range and cost about $100.The product im making has 18 separate pieces put together in two layers and i make about 1000 a year. Every tool i have is set up for only one operation so it is close to a cnc without the expense. This is strictly a one man operation and everyone of my setups is designed for the most efficency. One jig on a bandsaw save four seconds which is not much until you make a lot of repetetive cuts.Im almost 74 and have slowed down to 60 hours a week


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## Toolman2 (Jun 15, 2010)

I think it's a personal preference and also depends on a person's experience with both types of saws. I've had several craftsman RAS and have sold them all because of inaccuracy. I recently sold my 9" 1950 Rockwell/Delta and bought a 12" Delta that I'm refurbishing. I love the accuracy compared to the SCMS and I love the versatility of the RAS as well. I use it for accurate miter cuts and precise crosscuts. I also use a negative hook, 72 tpi blade.


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

Toolman2 said:


> I think it's a personal preference and also depends on a person's experience with both types of saws. I've had several craftsman RAS and have sold them all because of inaccuracy. I recently sold my 9" 1950 Rockwell/Delta and bought a 12" Delta that I'm refurbishing. I love the accuracy compared to the SCMS and I love the versatility of the RAS as well. I use it for accurate miter cuts and precise crosscuts. I also use a negative hook, 72 tpi blade.



Toolman2, as you point out, tooth count is a critical piece in the RAS puzzle. I belong to an RAS forum and there are more 9" RAS in use there than any other size, mainly because they are more available, very beautiful, and high quality.

Without insulting anyone here, I must say that the comments about the tools' riding up on "anything 3/4" or bigger," etc. are really wild statements. While some may have experienced this, there are many reasons why these things could seem to be occurring, but operator error is the obvious culprit.

The operator is responsible to not only fully understand how to safely operate any tool but also to successfully carry that action out, the operator must use an appropriate blade, that blade must be sharp, and here's the biggie: the tool must be properly tuned/aligned/setup.

All of the overblown criticism of the RAS adds up to a complete rejection of the RAS as a viable tool. If that's true, then the RAS is a hoax tool, and our favorite, most trusted tool makers have perpetrated that hoax on us sad end-users ... NOT! The RAS is probably the most sophisticated and elegant consumer grade power tool of an entire century, and that demands the users must raise their games to that same very high level. Naysayers, please go do your homework on how to tune and use your RAS before categorically blasting a tool.


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## RLFrost (Mar 2, 2013)

*Ras*

I do want to try to be accurate and truthful and honest, so let's give it a whirl.

I will be 70 years old in September, and I have been woodworking all of my life. I have built a house, and I was an acoustic guitar maker for almost 30 years. I have, by the way, never been to a job site other than my own. The furniture that I have built since I retired from guitar making includes a dining table and chairs, a large pier mirror, two tall case clocks, a kitchen island for my wife, and a long list of display and book cases. I take no exception to equipment that anyone uses or wants to use, but I do think that the broadly cast opinions here might discourage this young man from keeping a very useful tool. I have an old classmate from the early 60's-- an engineer-- who has become a Festool junkie since he retired. They certainly make beautiful tools, and I think his work is exemplary. On the other hand, I notice that he still shows up here once in a while to make fun of my tools and to ask how to make this or that joint.

I wouldn't be at home in a shop without a radial saw. I do use it almost exclusively for accurate crosscuts AND cutting to length. These are the two cuts that predominate furniture construction. Why would you not dedicate a tool for a job that represents 80% of all the cuts you will make? As someone mentioned, this setup also works very well for tenon cutting, particularly with large pieces where it is unwieldy to use a router. I also have a 12" miter saw that is dedicated only to cutting the common angles that I use for molding. I personally think that flat angles are more easily cut on the table saw with a sliding table (easy to make yourself), but a miter saw is a wonderful tool for molding. The factory detents may not be accurate, but you can calibrate them and in my experience they will remain accurate for years.

My lowly radial saw is a Craftsman that I have now owned for 34 years. I have replaced the arm bearings once, and the motor once in that period of time. I check the alignment every spring, but I rarely have to make any adjustments. I have built an extended table with a surround for dust collection and a custom fence with incra track imbedded. I can cut accurately on the left side of the saw up to 42" and on the right side up to 19". I can't say enough about the incra track. It is calibrated to 1/32" as you know and is accurate to about .002" in my experience.

There are probably folks reading who do this same work with a single saw. I believe that is certainly possible, although I think it would take a little extra tinkering. 

My point here is that a radial arm saw can be an essential part of a shop. I can only speak for myself when I say that a Craftsman saw can be made as accurate as you want to take the time to make it. I can't say whether Delta or DeWalt make better saws out of the box-- I have never owned one, but I can say with absolute certainty that there is no inherent inaccuracy in the radial design if you are willing to work with the saw in the first place. I am also very glad to be able to buy parts for my saw even at its advanced age.

There really is no useful evidence in woodworking other than anecdotal. If a tool works for you, it makes very little difference what anyone else thinks. If it works for you, other people can make it work. If I had twenty bucks for every article I have read that claims the tools in my shop are junk, I could afford a new Festool router.

I can't tell you the joy that woodworking has brought me over the years, and maintaining my tools has been a part of that experience; even after all this time, I seem to have one or two ideas each year about how I should have been doing things all along. If my eyes hold up and if my hands are steady, I plan to be at it for a few more years.

I hope this young man will keep his radial saw-- at least until he explores what he can accomplish with it. Even if he decides it is not for him, the experience will be instructive and rewarding.

RLFrost


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Knowing the proper way to use any tool will make one's life so much better, many tools are tossed aside because they don't work, when it is often just a matter of trying to make them do the impossible.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A warm welcome to you, Mr Frost!*

Your post was very well stated without any bias ...except your own experience over the years to which you are certainly "entitled" . :yes:

I love my Craftsman RAS s as well., and your description of your set up sounds very much like my own, 38" of supported table to the left and 26" to the right. A replacable fence is screwed to the large plywood top and can be positioned at any depth OR extended further to the left if needed. There is nothing like getting a square cut on the end of a 7 ft 2" X 8" without any concern for supporting it, then flipping it end for end and squaring the opposite end. 

Please add some photos of your work to your album in "My Photos" section.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Scurvy said:


> Toolman2, as you point out, tooth count is a critical piece in the RAS puzzle. I belong to an RAS forum and there are more 9" RAS in use there than any other size, mainly because they are more available, very beautiful, and high quality.
> 
> Without insulting anyone here, I must say that the comments about the tools' riding up on "anything 3/4" or bigger," etc. are really wild statements. While some may have experienced this, there are many reasons why these things could seem to be occurring, but operator error is the obvious culprit.
> 
> ...


Yes operator error is the reason for the cut off fingers and the blade climbing. Let's also point out that with this saw its very easy to do.

Why are so few RASs made today? 

Why are there so many that have used the saw with the same opinion? Overblown?

There is no scientific accurate data that supports the notion that any RAS costing less than $1000 dollars can make repeated angle cuts better than even the simplest miter saw. Nothing about the stops, fence or table is accurate.

Too bad one tool company had a string longer than three decades of really bad performing RASs.

Scurvy. Maybe it would be a good "tune up" thread to share your experience with setup and tuning of the RAS. I'm certainly open to any changes that you do that makes the saw cut well. Do you have a better table, stops and fence?

BTW remember the little Ryobi RAS. 

Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*RAS with a jig vs table saw with a sled*

I'm tired of hearing how inaccurate the RAS is. Some may be, but not all. The posts here seem to indicate that there are some good ones. If you don't own one, how can you say one way or the other, it's just your opinion. If your RAS doesn't go back to 45 degrees either side of 90, then make a jig for it for cutting miters OR tune it up so it does. What's the difference in a jig for miters on a RAS set at 90 degrees than a table saw sled to make miters at 45 degrees which rides in the miter slots? Both are devices which aid in the operation. :yes: 

Digital miter gauges have all but eliminated the "error" in making miters. With a digital gauge you can adjust the fence on a RAS on either side of the kerf, IF that's necessary? It's the very same gauge I use to set the adjustable fence on my table saw sled. 

 

 

As far as the blade self feeding with the "wrong" hook blade that's a given, get over it or get used to it. BTDT. If the blade rides up on top of the work, something is radically wrong with the setup, bearings adjustment, blade etc. Get rid of it or fix it, it's not safe.

As far as all Craftsman RAS being "bad performing" for 3 decades, just another opinion not based on accurate or scientific data.... offer proof if you have some. At least 3.7 million have been sold or recalled*, and there has not been a single RYOBI type lawsuit resulting in million dollar settlements or awards that I know of. 
* http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2001...Radial-Arm-Saws-Sold-by-Sears-Roebuck-and-Co/

Anyone who has followed the RYOBI lawsuit knows that it was an inexperienced operator, using the saw without the guard and ripping freehand which resulted in the injury...operator error for certain. According to this study RASs account for 4% of power saw "accidents" compared to table saws which account for 55%. http://sawaccidents.com/

If you own a RAS it's your responsibility to adjust it and maintain it not only for accuracy but for safety. If you don't, you can't complain about it. I have "tested" mine for slop in the vertical column and arm, didn't find any. I use a 60 tooth Freud Diablo blade which is not a negative hook and it does tend to self feed a bit, but nothing I can't control and nothing I'm unprepared for.

If you hate them, don't own one, if you love them buy as many as your shop will accommodate... I'm up to 3 at this point....just sayin'


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Why are so few RASs made today?
> 
> 
> Al



Because a good radial arm saw would be 1200-1500 bucks today, and a decent miter saw is 400-500. But for someone who's always talking about the advantage of cast iron over plastic and aluminum I'm surprised you don't go the other way here.


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

*Reply to RLFrost*

RL. 
I just joined this forum a few days ago. I always find the discussion on the merits of a radial arm saw interesting. I have taught carpenters and ran my own design/build company for more than 25 years. I am north of 60 years old. Making things is second nature to me. My father was a great carpenter. old school as it came. He owned and I still have one of the first Skil worm drive power saws made. It has more sentimental value to me than antique value. If alive my dad would be 99 years old. The first lesson I was taught me on that saw was that ANY power tool can hurt you if not used correctly, without a sharp cutting edge/blade and if asked to do too much. 
Radial arm saws have been given a bad wrap IMO. Some operators are asking it to do too much or have a dull blade in it. I have seen compound miter saw being asked to do too much or have a dull blade with similar disaster result. As well as table saws. 
It wasn't until a few years back when I had a young man purchase his first circular saw and he bought a 7 1/4" Sears Craftsman for $29.95. I was going to show him how to cut a set of stair jacks. I have always used my Skil 77 Mag. and a hand saw to cut stair jacks. I like it because it has the power, I can see the blade and my jacks are on the money. The hand saw just finishes things off in the corners. Well this $30 Craftsman just didn't have the Wheaties to do it. And in the back of my head I heard the ole man saying, "your asking a boy to do a man's job" The reason I mention this is that I think alot of the radial arm saws are the $30 circular saw version and just don't have the Wheaties to do the job. 
I own a 12" RAS with a 2 hp. 220 volt DeWalt, early 60's version. I mainly use it to cut dado's. And RL you are so correct, tool maintenance is so important. I spend one evening a week maintaining tools that my guys use on the job site. 
In summary, I don't know what the young man should do but maybe just listen and try to absorb things from us guys that have done it for awhile. Good Luck 
Marty


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Its mainly the homeowners 10" Radial arm saw that's got the bad name. I had a 10" Delta and when I had the chance traded for the 12" DELTA. Totally different animal as far as a RAS is concerned.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I can't speak for the Deltas...*

The Craftsman's 10" and 12" are virtually identical except for the motors. A motor carriage from a 10" will fit on a 12"" and vise versa. This allows changing from a motor carriage with a dado set to a router carriage to a single blade all on the same arm. Here's a RAR radial arm router mounted on a 10" arm:









The 12" motor carriage:









I even made a panel saw from a radial arm saw motor carriage:



















It's a versatile platform for everything a RAS is "supposed" to do plus some other things they didn't think of. :yes:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> I'm tired of hearing how inaccurate the RAS is.


Keep in mind that a LOT of these posters have never even seen or actually USED a 'good' or properly adjusted RAS... 

:no:

I am very good at spotting someone that has NO idea what the **** they are talking about... I am fairly sure that you can spot them as well. :yes:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I imagine the opinion of radial arm saws is due to the manufacturers of home model saws trying to make the cheap. In doing so they created an underpowered piece of equipment on a cheesy carriage that every time you stall one it puts so much stress of the adjustments everything moves. Then the hobbiest doesn't know to turn the machine off and check all the adjustments. First thing you know the saw is cutting a degree or two off and screwing up a project.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*underpowered?*

Steve you are the only person I heard that thinks they are underpowered. Why is that your opinion?
This one doesn't look the least bit underpowered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRFjRvQTckM


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The video doesn't do anything for me. My computer doesn't do video. 

Over the years in various shops I've worked at I used a number of different radial arm saws and every one of them was underpowered. When cutting 2X wood or hardwood you have to make the cut about 2" at a time letting the motor recover before proceeding or it will stop completely. The industrial model saws have enough power to make the cut. This is what has prompted me to replace the home model saw I've been using for years with a 16" Dewalt saw.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*home shop vs production shop*

I don't think the "homeowner" RAS were designed to rip or crosscut 2" hardwood for hours on end. The comparison to a 16" Dewalt is unfair and doesn't really apply to the OP's question which was ....miter saw or RAS? I ripped about 700 lineal ft of 1" Cypress using a 10" Craftsman RAS and yes, it stalled and tripped the breaker when I "overfed" it, until I replace the extension cord with a 12 GA. one.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Actually the 2X I was referring to was cross cutting construction grade lumber. For the most part I use my saw to cross cut 3/4" red oak.


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## carl.p (Mar 7, 2013)

*mitre saw vs ras*

Hi Guys reading the comments all I can add is I have 4 ras saws set up in my production line each one being a single function machine. My bosch gcm10 sd mitre saw is freed up for quick cuts that do not require many cuts eg some mitres for small parts. my line is bee hive production. I would never be with out both as each has is good points .


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Woodnthings, 
I just tried sending you a private message but it said I can't send one since I have not yet sent 5 posts??? 

I am interested in your panel saw. Is that a kit? or did you build it yourself? If you have plans I would be interested in a copy. Just let me know how much. 

I have had a similar idea for using a radial arm saw as a panel saw since I cut alot of sheet goods. It seems a panel saw is fairly efficient at cutting sheet goods. Since you have already done the engineering why should I reinvent the wheel. 

I would appreciate a reply or via PM here. 

Thanks, 
Minnesota Marty


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

No kidding I am loving that panel saw!
Guys, I have an older craftsman RAS that I inherited. It has been in storage ever since moving from the FIL's shop. I had used it in the past and it worked well IMO.
Now I am building my kitchen cabinets. I have some busy pantries to build with many dado'd shelves. I am thinking it might be time to bring it home, oil it up and set it up for those dado cuts. 
Question number 1: can I set a stop to do a blind dado cut with it? I will dog ear the shelf itself to allow for the missing radius, then apply a hardwood face board on said shelf that would hide any oddities.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there are no plans*



Minnesota Marty said:


> I am interested in your panel saw. Is that a kit? or did you build it yourself? If you have plans I would be interested in a copy. Just let me know how much.
> 
> I would appreciate a reply or via PM here.
> 
> ...


 Since no PM's yet, I'll respond briefly here.
Sorry Marty, that was a seat of the pants build/design that basically integrated the motor carriage of the RAS since it had an induction motor, rotated in all directions, and could be locked up in either a vertical or horizontal position.

Lots of man hours in just building the table which was originally designed to lay flat on tall legs, but took up too much room. More man hours in getting the sliding mechanism to go both vertical and horizontal. I used the same V bearings as the original motor carriage.

You have to have some mechanical ability, a drill press, a metal cutting saw, but could be done without a welder. :yes:


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## RLFrost (Mar 2, 2013)

*pictures*

woodnthings,

Thanks for your kind remarks. I did upload some pictures to an album called projects. 
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/rlfrost-38771/albums/projects/
I hope this is the proper link.

RLFrost


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that link works fine*

However, you can directly access them through a "click" on "My Photos" as well. Thanks for posting such nice work. :smile:


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I imagine the opinion of radial arm saws is due to the manufacturers of home model saws trying to make the cheap. In doing so they created an underpowered piece of equipment on a cheesy carriage that every time you stall one it puts so much stress of the adjustments everything moves. Then the hobbiest doesn't know to turn the machine off and check all the adjustments. First thing you know the saw is cutting a degree or two off and screwing up a project.


Agree:yes:. I have shut down a few craftsman 10" RAS's in my day just double cutting(1.25) particle board for cabinet shelves. Push back restart :no:. Gets it done especially when your tryin to kill it:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Woodnthings, 
Thanks for the reply. I found this homemade panel saw with a kit. But the kit company is no longer in business. 

http://woodgears.ca/reader/hector/panelsaw.html

I do own a wire feed welder and probably can figure something out. 

I also like the use of the router on the RAS. That looks like an easier build and the uses are a little more broad. 

Thanks again for the info. 

Marty


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*panel saw kits*

I wanted a panel saw that I didn't need to move the panel so that's what I designed. My vertical arm slides along the top rail for ripping. 
MOST all other panel saws except the 10K versions require you move the panel for ripping which requires about 20 lineal feet of floor space. 
There are some kits made from 8020 rails which IF I had it do over, is what I would use. The glide bearings slide smoothly with little friction and are tight in the rails.Look on Ebay for the bearings and the rails.

Here a kit that uses it:
http://a2equipment.com/


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

I used the wrong term in my other post. Would a RAS be able to easily cut a stopped dado?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*only to a point ...*



skyking said:


> I used the wrong term in my other post. Would a RAS be able to easily cut a stopped dado?


For a stopped dado, the diameter of the dado set would still leave that portion of wood which would need to be removed by hand. A router would require less hand work at the stopped end.


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

I was going to dog ear the corners of the shelf, and conceal any further mayhem behind a hardwood edge piece. (plywood shelves). In this manner I thought I could do a stopped dado for a bunch of 6" deep pantry shelves.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

skyking said:


> I was going to dog ear the corners of the shelf, and conceal any further mayhem behind a hardwood edge piece. (plywood shelves). In this manner I thought I could do a stopped dado for a bunch of 6" deep pantry shelves.


You could with the dado open at the back edge no problem, a notch in the front of the shelf also works to hide the mayhem.:icon_smile:


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

notch, dog ear, I think we are on the same page there.
I will have to see what tools are in the cabinet below the saw, and see what I can mount up on it. 
My understanding of RAS usage is that they work well for things like multiple part setups. Make an index stop that sits in the dado you just cut, etc.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

skyking said:


> notch, dog ear, I think we are on the same page there.
> I will have to see what tools are in the cabinet below the saw, and see what I can mount up on it.
> My understanding of RAS usage is that they work well for things like multiple part setups. Make an index stop that sits in the dado you just cut, etc.


Yes, and make a stop for the carriage, had some photos of one I made but can't find them right now.


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Frank, 

Nice website. Lead on man. 

Marty


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

Thank you Frank. I will get the saw home next week.
What I am making is some pantries 12" deep with 6" shelves, and 5" storage on the back of the doors. 
The stopped dado seems appropriate.


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## ed malcom (Nov 7, 2013)

I jumped in this a few days ago and some of the HATEFUL remarks astound me. ALL of my cuts on my ras are straight as I learned many years ago that anytime you move the saw from straight you stand a very good chance of it not going back straight. If you try to cut 16 pieces of wood with points around a circle and expect them to all fit your cutting jig has to be super accurate. It took me a while to get it all put together using indicators to adjust. If you are even 1/4 of a degree of by the time you get around the circle joints are opening up. I have three different lengths to cut with the shortest. being about three inches long AND I HAVE ALL MY FINGERS. Once I got it set up it has never been moved. ACCURACY is the main secret and you have to stay on top of it. This operation does not need lots of power as the boards are 3/8 thick and 1 3/8 wide. The biggest problem is the little bitty scrap. This is a craftsman 10 I bought new in 74 and has no telling how many gazillion working hours but it has always been set up permanently with a plywood table as the original particleboard ones sucked. I can make a cut every five seconds and the biggest holdup is my right shoulder. Several people in the area who seem to have all the answers have wanted to see my setup. NO DICE I tell them to figure it out themselves Right now I have no competition for the product. My old belsaw planer that I bought used 40 years ago still will plane to within two thousands across 12 inch. Does it take time to get one set that close you bet but the closer you get at the beginning makes for better on the end. It still ads up to which ever you prefer. I have one older RAS set up with twenty foot table and a twenty foot long piece of four inch chanel iron bolted down that is only used to straight line 3/4 lumber. Not used very often but try that with your table saw.


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

To one and all who have participated in this thread, here's the very most useful pieces of information regarding the RAS: 



 Go buy the book, How to Master the Radial Saw by Wally Kunkel, "Mr. Sawdust," available from mrsawdust.com, and while you're at it, the 2 companion tomes are Fine Tuning Your Radial Arm Saw by John Eakes (internet download), and The Magic of Your Radial Arm Saw by DeCristoforo. These 3 books handily debunk all of the negative comments and will provide new insight and methods to those of us who are happy and experienced with our RAS. :thumbsup:
In practical terms, some simple steps will transform anyone's RAS experience:
Make a proper table top that is 1.5" thick and dead flat -- I make mine from doubled up 3/4" Baltic Birch plywd that gets laminated together. This top is now *sacred*, DO NOT cut it to pieces; use a consumable 1/4" MDF or plywd "skin" to protect it; once that gets chewed up, replace it w/ a freshie.
Tune the saw completely and correctly. This is where the 1st two books are most useful.
Use a proper blade: >40 teeth, hook angle = 10 deg. to a neg. hook angle, ATB w/ raker or TCP, thin kerf for saws 8" - 10".
Lastly, the fence is also consumable, so replace it when it gets chewed up. Hello, one can easily slide it sideways to get fresh kerf-meat.

 
The consumable skin and fence are great working aids, so use them as such. How's that? The consumable elements precisely indicate where the blade will cut, so it is a very simple matter of placing one's marked workpiece directly in line w/ the line of the kerf so as to achieve a dead-on cut the first time thru. :yes:

Admittedly, before these books were penned, we were all destined to flail away with a very complex, and capable machine, but largely in the dark. So armed with this information, there are no more excuses for the hysteria and poor results. Get yourselves pulled together and spend some adult-time learning how to correctly set up, tune, kit out, and operate your RAS.

I will soon provide my home address so I can receive all of those boxes of chocolates that one and all will no doubt be sending my way.... :laughing:


-- Bradley


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Ed and Scurvy, 

Thanks for the info. Properly tuned equipment, with a sharp cutting blade and knowing the saws limitations makes for safe tool operation 
I have seen the first book but will need to check out the last two. Always ready to learn something new. There is no end to knowledge. 

Marty


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Scurvy, even since those books were penned there are still many that know for a fact that radial arm saws are downright dangerous, inaccurate, and with a blade possessed by the devil, no books , logic or voodoo will change their minds.


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I dont want a tool that takes that much upkeep to maintain accuracy, not to mention youre cutting in the wrong direction. Ive had to adjust my MS once in 3yrs, it was off less than 1* on the miter. Beveling has so far stayed true. I check it weekly because it gets used regularly.

Like I said from the start, all you guys that like your RAS's Im happy for ya. Just be aware that trying to convince everyone that theyre the best thing since the wheel isnt going to take with everyone.


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## ed malcom (Nov 7, 2013)

I discovered one mistake in my post. There are twelve pieces around the circle not 16 and once you get everything aligned it does not take a lot to keep it that way. The secret is taking the time to do it right the first time. To cut twelve pieces around a circle the points have to be 60 degrees HOW YOU GOING TO DO IT and not look like it was whittled, lots harder than you think.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*60 degrees?*



ed malcom said:


> I discovered one mistake in my post. There are twelve pieces around the circle not 16 and once you get everything aligned it does not take a lot to keep it that way. The secret is taking the time to do it right the first time. To cut twelve pieces around a circle the points have to be 60 degrees HOW YOU GOING TO DO IT and not look like it was whittled, lots harder than you think.


360 divided by 12 pieces is 30 degrees :yes: 
Each piece must have an included angle of 30 degrees. Now cutting a 30 degree angle on any miter saw or RAS is NOT an easy task and requires a jig. The saw setting at 90 degrees to the fence is simple. If you set the saw arm over 30 degrees from 90 you will get a 60 degree angle on your piece, NOT 30 degrees. You can't get there from here without a jig. 
Here's an example for cutting a 22.5 degree angle using a 45 degree "jig" on a miter saw. I started a whole thread and it went on for ever and I still couldn't convince some folks:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/angles-setting-miter-saw-9644/


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## Chamfer (Sep 6, 2014)

I dont need any jigs for my MS. 

There must be something wrong with me or my equipment.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*well then...*



Chamfer said:


> I dont need any jigs for my MS.
> 
> There must be something wrong with me or my equipment.



If you can cut any angle less than 45 degrees without a "jig" or spacer, then you're the man. :yes:

The issue is with angles less than 45 degrees because your saw's arm won't swing around any further.... maybe another degree or so, but that's it. 

The other issue is how you measure the angle. If you use a digital protractor you immediately see what I'm saying, which is the "setting on the saw" is 90 from the actual angle when measured by a protractor.
It's explained in detail in the thread. :yes:

Another good thread, see post no. 4:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/60-degree-angle-help-57573/


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

*Bullseye!*



Minnesota Marty said:


> Ed and Scurvy,
> 
> Properly tuned equipment, with a sharp cutting blade and knowing the saws limitations makes for safe tool operation
> .... Always ready to learn something new. There is no end to knowledge.
> ...


Marty, that's it in wonderfully succinct terms! Your understanding is universal to every tool in the shop, and your open-minded attitude is essential to growth and development in all sorts of life's interests.

-- Bradley


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

*Very true*



Chamfer said:


> Like I said from the start, all you guys that like your RAS's Im happy for ya. Just be aware that trying to convince everyone that theyre the best thing since the wheel isnt going to take with everyone.


Chamfer, thanks and I agree completely. I hope that I'm not telegraphing the idea that the RAS is the best thing since the wheel, because that would be just silly. I am like any other member here, I just love, love, LOVE tools in general, but especially when a particularly "nasty" (in a good way) project challenge gets solved perfectly by a clever tool.

My defense of the RAS came because hysterical viewpoints that are clearly missing facts and thoughtful research only serve to distract from the learning aspect of the conversation -- that stuff ends up being old fashioned "belly aching." I have my RAS knowledge & experience out of need: My shop and budget are just too small to accommodate a TS, a shaper, and/or jointer.

Two last interesting thoughts:


My favorite tool: My workbench
Best tool for general cutting tasks: My Makita tracksaw! This truly blows me away, because it is just so direct and the results are every bit as good as those from my RAS or sold-off cabinet saw. An honest assessment for me is that my tracksaw has a 2-3/8" max. depth of cut at 90 deg. and I simply don't foresee myself working w/ stock any thicker than 2-1/4". BTW, with no effort or thought I can cut any miter angle straight away, and that's on material of pretty much any width too. This is a technologically driven new way to work and my time with the RAS certainly led me to understand how work with the huge potential of this fork in the road.


-- Bradley


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## Minnesota Marty (Feb 27, 2015)

Scurvy, 
Well put. I don't think any of us of sound mind is saying that the RAS is the best thing since sliced bread. But, what we are saying is the "overreaction" that the saw is somewhat too dangerous and should be thrown out, is ludicrous. Most people just don't have the room for a radial arm saw because the power miter saw can do similar things in an efficient manner. 
I appreciate the debate. 

Thanks, 
Marty


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## ed malcom (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodnthings. You did a way better job of explaining the angles with a jig than i did.If the jig is off even a quarter of a degree the joints wont fit tight. Maybe im just to damn picky but that was the way i was tought over sixty years ago by an eighty year old builder who was always at least two steps ahead of his competition. He had worked for himself since he was 16 years old and others hated him because he was not afraid to question how things were done and was told BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY WE DO IT. He read everything about building he could get his hands on. Eventually people started to agree with him. He was well into his nineties and still working every day. One day he just set down and that was it. His time had finally come.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

I have to agree that my favorite personal tool is my German work bench. I've never used or even seen a track saw but I can see where they would be very useful as a personal tool or job site. I'm spoiled rotten because I own a production shop with about every tool I could want. I still know how to tune and use my plane, chisels, scrapers and scratch stocks. Something very pleasant about using them.That said I'm not above hand grinding a knife for my shapers, setting the powerfeed and making any molding I'd like straight of curved. I'll even do that for customers sometimes. But usually leave it to employees to do with the profile grander and molder. Too bad more small shop/hobby people don't learn to use a shaper.


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## CherryWoodWorker (Nov 11, 2012)

I am new to wood working, I won't lie. I do like the RAS because I think it is a cool tool. I have a 1963 Craftsman RAS. I have a newer Craftsman Table Saw and Miter Saw. I have had little use with the miter saw and the arm for miter cut broke. I bought the sliding miter saw to finish the trim in our house. I would just keep RAS, because you can always use it for something. That is just my 2 cents worth.


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## Bart Leetch (Jan 28, 2012)

Chamfer said:


> Sliding miter saws are the modern day radial arm saw. More accurate, less parts to get out of whack, safer. Not that theres anything wrong with them.
> 
> *The only thing you can do with most RAS's that you cant do with a SMS is rip material.
> *
> Ill put it this way, you if had a RAS already I wouldn't go out and buy a SMS. Likewise, the opposite would be my opinion. If you have both and are looking for extra room Id get rid of the RAS.


 Also dado & probably more I can't think of.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Bart Leetch said:


> Also dado & probably more I can't think of.


A radial arm saw will do anything a table saw does, you could replace your table saw with one if you had to. You might not want to but that would be a personal preference, not a necessity.


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## fredrubin (Nov 5, 2010)

*almost 60 years*

I have been doing woodworking for almost 60 years and worked professionally for over 40. I have owned both a RAS and a CMS. I can say that each tool has benefits. I used my RAS extensively for crosscutting Melamine and MDF shelving for closets and kitchen cabinets. The modern CMS is far superior to any CMS I had years ago. They are more versatile and powerful. I am pressed for space now. I chose the CMS over the RAS. And if I ever go back to having more space I would probably not buy another RAS.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

CMS.....hands down. 

I am not a fan of RAS's....:thumbdown:

Had one - space eater, ...only good thing about it was cross cutting....


JMPOV,


B,


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Commercial vs home shop RASs*

You guys must distinguish between the commercial saws, 14" and larger and the homeowner RAS 10" and smaller to be fair. The 12" size falls in between with some in either category. This is a commercial RAS and won't compare in any way to the homeowner version..... power,
accuracy etc.

http://www.originalsaw.com/16heavyduty.html


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Wow, that saw looks like the old Dewalt saws.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Wow, that saw looks like the old Dewalt saws.


They ended up with the original Dewalt patents, so yes it is basically a Dewalt.


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## Bart Leetch (Jan 28, 2012)

pooroldjim said:


> I currently have both built in my shop, and rarely use the radial arm. It's a 10" craftsman and the only tool in my shop I am actually afraid of. A 12 or 14 inch might be OK but the 10 self feeds abruptly in any stock thicker than 3/4 inch. I do have the proper negative rake blade installed, but I am honestly considering just getting rid of it. A good 12" miter saw will do anything you want a radial arm to do, and it's a lot safer.


Learn how to operate the saw properly & you won't have this problem.

Don't allow you elbow to bend until the last part of the cut. The control is in your shoulder. Basically you stiff arm it using your upper body & shoulder to control the feed rate & bend you elbow at the last part of the cut. I learned this from my father who cut more rafter & truss structure & regular framing for many post war housing & later generation housing projects than you can shake a stick at. I have never had a problem with the saw grabbing or climbing. When I was 14-15 Dad set me up cutting truss frame work for a speck house we were building in the evenings & on week ends & left for his day job in construction. I spent the day cutting all the parts for the trusses for a 1800 sq. ft. house with 2 car garage. The RAS was a 1967 vintage 12" Craftsman with a standard steel blade. All the material needed was ready when Dad got home from work. I still have that saw today as well as his 10" earlier model 60's Craftsman RAS used the the cabinet shop.
I do want to buy a NR blade. I just received the rest of Dad's shop equipment which included the 10" RAS saw. I have a full complement of my own equipment so I am now tool poor with basically 2 of everything including all the small electric hand tools & regular hand tools. I'll just call my shop the Ark remember Noah only 2 animals of each kind are to be brought into the Ark.


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