# Staining my Bookcase... Trouble Selecting a Stain



## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Well, I'm at the point where it's about time to start selecting stains for the bookcase. But I'm just so damn confused with selecting a TYPE of stain. Poly? Oil? Water? Two coats? Five coats? Rub? Bristle? Wool? Foam? All-in-one? Not a damn clue...

The carcass is red oak ply, the shelves are red oak ply with solid red oak fronts. Cabinet doors and drawer fronts will be solid cherry. I'm going for a two-tone scheme. Haven't decided if the face frame should be oak or cherry yet (but will know later today). Looking for something in this range:

Carcass:







to









Doors/Drawers:







to









If it helps any, I have access to Lowes/HD/Sherwin (and SW is 30% off right now...), so the usual Zinsner, Minwax, SW Wood Classics, etc is available to me. Want this project at least mostly done by X-Mas, so I don't think I have time to hunt around for other distributors.

My skill level is roughly "done it once or twice".

Help!!


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

Thadius856 said:


> Well, I'm at the point where it's about time to start selecting stains for the bookcase. But I'm just so damn confused with selecting a TYPE of stain. Poly? Oil? Water? Two coats? Five coats? Rub? Bristle? Wool? Foam? All-in-one? Not a damn clue...
> 
> The carcass is red oak ply, the shelves are red oak ply with solid red oak fronts. Cabinet doors and drawer fronts will be solid cherry. I'm going for a two-tone scheme. Haven't decided if the face frame should be oak or cherry yet (but will know later today). Looking for something in this range:
> 
> ...


You will want to check this out it is a blotch control. Watch this video and you deside. I use this on all my item's. I wouldn't be with out it. Here is the link http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=InTheWorkshop#p/u/36/IfCYMdrP8rM


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## Nandor (Dec 10, 2011)

with oak i always use this method. 1 or 2 coat of waterbased dye stain ,will soaks in deep wont be mudy , then 1 or 2 coat oil based top of that something similarcolor like the water based you used. after that is the top coat of your choice. just give enough time to the water based to dry. you can use just water based but it will be flat,you wont get that patina and water based stain will fade over time.if you use oil based stain it will be mudy looking.in my experimence the combination of water and oil based stain yield the best results on oak, or even cherry


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Generally you won't have to worry about Oak blotching, it is not one of those woods. The plywood should be sanded to a finer grit than the solid as it will stain darker if not. Normally I sand to 150 grit on the solid and 220 on the plywood. One thing to watch out for is if you have a plain sliced plywood the alternate slices will stain dark and light. If you are aware of it you can beat it at the pass by rubbing off the stain on the darker slices first and letting the lighter slices absorb the stain to reach the darkness of the others. As for colors, that is a personal choice to be made by you.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Generally you won't have to worry about Oak blotching, it is not one of those woods. The plywood should be sanded to a finer grit than the solid as it will stain darker if not. Normally I sand to 150 grit on the solid and 220 on the plywood. One thing to watch out for is if you have a plain sliced plywood the alternate slices will stain dark and light. If you are aware of it you can beat it at the pass by rubbing off the stain on the darker slices first and letting the lighter slices absorb the stain to reach the darkness of the others. As for colors, that is a personal choice to be made by you.


+1.:yes: Red Oak doesn't blotch, and is very easy to stain and finish. I would use a pigmented oil base stain. It won't raise the grain, and will give a longer working time than a water based stain or dye. The plywood shouldn't need much sanding at all, maybe a quick light pass with 180x. 

Once dry, it can be topcoated with any film finish.










 







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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Generally you won't have to worry about Oak blotching, it is not one of those woods. The plywood should be sanded to a finer grit than the solid as it will stain darker if not. Normally I sand to 150 grit on the solid and 220 on the plywood. One thing to watch out for is if you have a plain sliced plywood the alternate slices will stain dark and light. If you are aware of it you can beat it at the pass by rubbing off the stain on the darker slices first and letting the lighter slices absorb the stain to reach the darkness of the others. As for colors, that is a personal choice to be made by you.


Oak will blotch i use it all the time.Let me get time and i will use blotcth control on 1/2 and stain and leve 1/2 no blotch control on the other and show the difference. Blotching is when hard and soft grain will not take stain evenley. Oak has open pours so it will blotch. Fact is all wood will blotch some what. Did you watch the video ?? if not watch it. Now if you are using ply wood that is the most blotch you will see watch the video. enough said Most people don't know what blotching is and what a nice piece of wood look's like. Of course blotching has been around ever sence finish's were put on wood. It is just what you get so you think that is what it is . Good luck


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Just stained some white oak and it came out beautiful without a single blotch in the plywood or solid. Maybe red oak can blotch some, but the white oak didn't at all for me. Also, could be the stains you are using. I use MLC which is for pros and it can be tough to use because of its high dry speed. I can clear a 1/2 hour after I stain.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

del schisler said:


> Oak will blotch i use it all the time.Let me get time and i will use blotcth control on 1/2 and stain and leve 1/2 no blotch control on the other and show the difference. Blotching is when hard and soft grain will not take stain evenley. Oak has open pours so it will blotch. Fact is all wood will blotch some what. Did you watch the video ?? if not watch it.


You seem bent on hawking Charles's products. Do you get a commission?:laughing:

As for Red Oak blotching...I sure don't see any blotching in the pics below. Do you??
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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> You seem bent on hawking Charles's products. Do you get a commission?:laughing:
> 
> As for Red Oak blotching...I sure don't see any blotching in the pics below. Do you??
> .
> ...


You seem bent on hawking Charles's products. Do you get a commission not i don't . I don't care what you guys do as far as staining ? I was just trying to help. Sorry for posting i guess every body know what they want . I bet you didn't watch the video ? I just know a good product. I use M.L.CAMPBEL also good product. Why would i pick on your stuff i thank if you are happy that is the main thing right?


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Just now reading the thread. Worked last night, was sick all night, and coming off a 90 hr work week. I'd like to get as much done as I can today, since the shelves are finally done to 220 grit, and I'll likely go grab another pack of 220 and finish all the sides, bases and tops before dinner. Since I'm trying for a multi-tone end result, color difference between the plywood and solid stock is perfectly acceptable, perhaps even desirable. 

I'm still at a loss for what products to use. Finishing is certainly not my forte. How's this sound?

One coat oil-based Wood Classics, two coats water-based polyurethane?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

del schisler said:


> You seem bent on hawking Charles's products. Do you get a commission not i don't . I don't care what you guys do as far as staining ? I was just trying to help. Sorry for posting i guess every body know what they want . I bet you didn't watch the video ? I just know a good product. I use M.L.CAMPBEL also good product. Why would i pick on your stuff i thank if you are happy that is the main thing right?


I did watch the video...you lose the bet.:laughing: You make blanket statements about all wood/plywood will blotch. That's just not true. I'm just offering my opinion, just like you. Everybody has their methods for getting a good finish. For some, how the wood is prepared may be the difference. I have rarely used conditioning agents.

I could prove my point with pictures of Maple wall systems out of Maple plywood, that no conditioner was used and the finish is very even. Here's one, and here's another.












 







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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

There may be some truth to his statement that oak blotches... some of my oak did yesterday when testing stain samples.

Since nobody offered feedback into what types of stain I should be getting, I went with Minwax Wood Stain and Minwax Water-based Oil-modified Polyurethane. Bought blindly this time. Hope it works out...

Notice the solid oak at the top-left. It blotched like crazy. Maybe I didn't do a good enough job sanding it, but it feels pretty smooth to the touch.









I went with the bottom two colors.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Thadius856 said:


> There may be some truth to his statement that oak blotches... some of my oak did yesterday when testing stain samples.
> 
> Since nobody offered feedback into what types of stain I should be getting, I went with Minwax Wood Stain and Minwax Water-based Oil-modified Polyurethane. Bought blindly this time. Hope it works out...
> 
> ...


You samples that you say look blotched don't look that way to me. They look like they needed to be sanded to 150x - 180x. They may feel smooth, but the rougher they are, the darker the stain will appear.

You could use an oil base stain, and when dry, a waterbase polyurethane. I can't comment on the oil modified, as I don't use it. 












 







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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

All solid samples were sanded 120-180-220. All plywood was 220 only.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

i hate oak so no reply here. lol


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

oh, i did download pics just now and magnified the top most left row, from what i can see, getting it as magnified without pixelation as possible, is what appears to be dye/stain seepage out of the wood grain. can't be sure because of pixellation but sure looks that way. you see that Cman?


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

I'll try to remember to take some closer shots in the morning before work.

No promises.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Thadius856 said:


> I'll try to remember to take some closer shots in the morning before work.
> 
> No promises.


 
Thanks.


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

Thadius856 said:


> All solid samples were sanded 120-180-220. All plywood was 220 only.


I did some sample's of different wood's that blotch and were sanded to 400 . That is where is sand my stuff now some will say no need to go that far ? I will post a little later this morning. The samples are walnut oak cherry poplar with 4 different stain's on them . This is getting to a pissing contet i see. I will post my samples and than i am done. I know that all wood will blotch some. But people have been staining and finishing tell some one get a product that show's the different's. Now i guess it is like i don't care i been doing this my way for all my wood working yrs. I don't belive i am a pro but been doing wood for 50 or so yrs so i may have pick up a few pointer's a long the way. And i don't get a kick back on the product. Like some one mention's. Just getting a good product out so people can see what they can get ? Just look at all the finish's and stain's that have been advertized and i am sure some one has a vested interest some where but not me. done


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

chemmy said:


> oh, i did download pics just now and magnified the top most left row, from what i can see, getting it as magnified without pixelation as possible, is what appears to be dye/stain seepage out of the wood grain. can't be sure because of pixellation but sure looks that way. you see that Cman?


Now with oak with out the treatment the stain will seep out of the soft wood and it need's to be wipe off untel it dry's . I wiped mine off a lot before the control i put on. Now with one wiping you are done but with out the control it will seep and need to be wiped at least 3 time a full day to keep it looking clean and smooth . I see what you mean but with oak their are soft and hard grain that is where you get the blotch. I know you know that but with this blocth control this seal's the soft grain and hard grain so when you apply stain or dye it will not soak into the soft grain as much and now they both take on the same amount of stain. No blotch now i am going to post some of my samples i done. They were sanded down to 400 grit . Look at these and see what you think thanks for reading


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

You can used compressed air to blow out the stain from the pores. Makes things go quicker.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

I rubbed the samples pretty hard with some very fluffy paper towels. Nothing was coming out of those pores. Don't have a compressor (no room until I enclose/expand the shop ) and I'm staining on the (covered) kitchen table, so that's not an option.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

del schisler said:


> Now with oak with out the treatment the stain will seep out of the soft wood and it need's to be wipe off untel it dry's . I wiped mine off a lot before the control i put on. Now with one wiping you are done but with out the control it will seep and need to be wiped at least 3 time a full day to keep it looking clean and smooth . I see what you mean but with oak their are soft and hard grain that is where you get the blotch. I know you know that but with this blocth control this seal's the soft grain and hard grain so when you apply stain or dye it will not soak into the soft grain as much and now they both take on the same amount of stain. No blotch now i am going to post some of my samples i done. They were sanded down to 400 grit . Look at these and see what you think thanks for reading


 
Yes Del, your completely right, i do understand and know all that you state here. although, when staining myself, i just use high air pressure and an air nozzle gun to blow out all the excess stain in the pores without the need or use of the conditioner. But each to his own on such matters.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> You can used compressed air to blow out the stain from the pores. Makes things go quicker.


 
Sorry Leo, did not see your post, but as you say, along with me and many other pro's, this is the easiest way to take care of the problem. now that i know however, that he has no compressor, thats out of the question.


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> You samples that you say look blotched don't look that way to me. They look like they needed to be sanded to 150x - 180x. They may feel smooth, but the rougher they are, the darker the stain will appear.
> 
> You could use an oil base stain, and when dry, a waterbase polyurethane. I can't comment on the oil modified, as I don't use it.
> 
> ...


here are the sample's i made today with the blotch control. Can you see the difference? The wide board on the botton is a poplar with walnut oak cherry mahogany that sure show's up on this one . Thanks for looking


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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

chemmy said:


> Yes Del, your completely right, i do understand and know all that you state here. although, when staining myself, i just use high air pressure and an air nozzle gun to blow out all the excess stain in the pores without the need or use of the conditioner. But each to his own on such matters.


I have done that also with the air. Lot's of way's of doing things. If not their would be only one thing and everthing would be the same. That be a hell of a mess thanks for reading.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

del schisler said:


> Now with oak with out the treatment the stain will seep out of the soft wood and it need's to be wipe off untel it dry's . I wiped mine off a lot before the control i put on. Now with one wiping you are done but with out the control it will seep and need to be wiped at least 3 time a full day to keep it looking clean and smooth . I see what you mean but with oak their are soft and hard grain that is where you get the blotch. I know you know that but with this blocth control this seal's the soft grain and hard grain so when you apply stain or dye it will not soak into the soft grain as much and now they both take on the same amount of stain. No blotch now i am going to post some of my samples i done. They were sanded down to 400 grit . Look at these and see what you think thanks for reading


 
Interesting Del, and yes i already know all of this and more. The use of PVA [polyvinyl-acetate] resins which make up common "white" adhesives, such as Elmer's and Franklin's titebond white adhesives, have been used long before this man has come up with his own version. They work pretty much like other so called "blotch controllers" on the market. He states that he has other "resins" incorporated with this, but i doubt that to be factual only because "resins" are not "water soluble". He may however, have unintentionally meant to say "gums", which all are water soluble. Though i still feel the addition of any other gums is quite unnecessary to perform the job at hand that were discussing. 

Most other commercial penetration controllers that are state of the art [they claim], use clays to help fill the end grains exposed due to the interlocking grain seen in hardwoods that are considered high end commodities such as crotches/burls/quilts/Birdseye's/blisters/and other highly figured species. I always find it amusing that anyone wants to stifle any "perceived" abnormalities of any wood. 

Myself, when looking for woods to create items from, actually look for the most figured "blotchy" knotty, or other "figure" qualities they have, that will enhance the end products appeal. The only time i use anything that would hinder the magnification of these wonderfully occurring features was when some "anal" designer or Architect would specify there desire for as "uniform" look to the wood surface as possible. That's where i probably differ from 95% [or more] of other wood finishers. 

Some of the most beautiful and desirable works i have ever seen are those who, whomever, were the finisher's/artisans, that were able to bring out all of the nuance's and depth and readability of every square micrometer of the wood surfaces, such as you see in Louis IV pieces and even in the biedermeier pieces of more than a century ago. Anyone who would shudder and cringe, such as the man in the video, over something as wonderful and delightful and pleasing as what is commonly called "blotching" in my opinion, is not a wood finishing artist to begin with. On top of this, to bring out these features in a truly wonderful way, the preperation of the wood has to be immaculate! [think pianos and guitars or other high end wood commodities.]

I hold the "masters" of this trade in high esteem because i know just how difficult it was for me to perfect these looks on all the various woods that abound our art and trade. It is only in recent times, by the advent of designers etc., that anyone desired to have "uniform" wood from piece to piece as a steady diet. They try to treat wood as just another material that can be printed. or colored much like cloth or opaque paint. Flat/ dead/ boring/ muted, [but for sure matching] color schemes that abound the homes of today.

There are so many things from the past that have been set aside and or forgotten that also were just as good if not better than today's sizing's such as hide glue and aqueous shellac sizing's, [that he turns his nose up at, since he has no clue on how to prepare and use such,], that you would find cheaper and just as easy to use if you were one that enjoys tinkering with the chemistry. In fact, up until my retirement a few years ago, i still occasionally used such things when needed. 

So yes, i think you have found your "holy grail" at least for yourself and if you like it, be my guest. but keep in mind this product is really no different then what i used 4 decades ago when my father introduced me to the glue size he had used all of his career for quick pre-stain sizing. Elmer's glue and distilled water, no more/no less. And even then, it was rarely used.

Chemmy


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

chemmy said:


> The only time i use anything that would hinder the magnification of these wonderfully occurring features was when some "anal" designer or Architect would specify there desire for as "uniform" look to the wood surface as possible. That's where i probably differ from 95% [or more] of other wood finishers.


+1.:yes: Ain't that the truth. I tell them that if they want it so damn uniform just use mica. I have contract documents that the client signs with provisions explaining that wood being a natural organic product cannot be guaranteed to be uniform in grain and color, and those differences are inherent.












 







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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

chemmy said:


> Interesting Del, and yes i already know all of this and more. The use of PVA [polyvinyl-acetate] resins which make up common "white" adhesives, such as Elmer's and Franklin's titebond white adhesives, have been used long before this man has come up with his own version. They work pretty much like other so called "blotch controllers" on the market. He states that he has other "resins" incorporated with this, but i doubt that to be factual only because "resins" are not "water soluble". He may however, have unintentionally meant to say "gums", which all are water soluble. Though i still feel the addition of any other gums is quite unnecessary to perform the job at hand that were discussing.
> 
> Most other commercial penetration controllers that are state of the art [they claim], use clays to help fill the end grains exposed due to the interlocking grain seen in hardwoods that are considered high end commodities such as crotches/burls/quilts/Birdseye's/blisters/and other highly figured species. I always find it amusing that anyone wants to stifle any "perceived" abnormalities of any wood.
> 
> ...


Hey Chemmy,
Not sure how long ago you dropped in here, but welcome. I know you from WoodWeb where you gave great finishing information. Glad to have you here and hope to hear from you more often.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

chemmy said:


> Interesting Del, and yes i already know all of this and more. The use of PVA [polyvinyl-acetate] resins which make up common "white" adhesives, such as Elmer's and Franklin's titebond white adhesives, have been used long before this man has come up with his own version. They work pretty much like other so called "blotch controllers" on the market. He states that he has other "resins" incorporated with this, but i doubt that to be factual only because "resins" are not "water soluble". He may however, have unintentionally meant to say "gums", which all are water soluble. Though i still feel the addition of any other gums is quite unnecessary to perform the job at hand that were discussing.
> 
> Most other commercial penetration controllers that are state of the art [they claim], use clays to help fill the end grains exposed due to the interlocking grain seen in hardwoods that are considered high end commodities such as crotches/burls/quilts/Birdseye's/blisters/and other highly figured species. I always find it amusing that anyone wants to stifle any "perceived" abnormalities of any wood.
> 
> ...


Hey Chemmy,
Not sure how long ago you dropped in here, but welcome. I know you from WoodWeb where you gave great finishing information. Glad to have you here and hope to hear from you more often.

Just looked it up, just a couple of days ago huh. Nice. Hope you have a good look around. Sometimes we get quite a few finishing questions around here and a lot of our members are pretty new to finishing. Hope you can enlighten them with you knowledge of finishing.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks Leo G., yes i remember you also, you gave fairly good advice to. I've answered a dozen or more post here but not sure if it's really my thing or not yet, Cabinetman [aka Cman, lol] is one of the few so far that seems to really have a head on his shoulders, but I'm sure there are others also whom i have not read yet. I feel like most here don't need or want real in-depth answers, there just looking for quick responses that fills their immediate needs as to what to use or do. 

Home depot answers lol. Two i have seen, really look like they are interested in truly learning all they can, one has not answered my post, the other i usually talk to directly, Carlo Bartolini, who is refinishing the entire interior on his boat, long project. 

But I'm sure that you will give good advice as usual Leo, hope to continue to see you around while I'm here. :thumbsup:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> +1.:yes: Ain't that the truth. I tell them that if they want it so damn uniform just use mica. I have contract documents that the client signs with provisions explaining that wood being a natural organic product cannot be guaranteed to be uniform in grain and color, and those differences are inherent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Very true and widely used info Cman, every wood industry i have worked in is that way also. But!!, If they are willing to pay the price, i have always given them exactly what they wanted lol. I also charged seperate charges for samples, since they usually wanted multiples, and also phone time, client meetings, and anything else that was beyond the price given for the actual work on the project themselves. Only when i had my first business was i so foolish as to give all that time away and was one reason it cost me that business, So........ "Never Again" LOL


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Well to tell you the truth the answers you give turn into a lot of work and most guys want a nice finish with a minimal amount of work, me included. You have a vast knowledge of old world finishes that look beautiful. They are also time intensive.

I've got a question for ya.

I am doing a quarter sawn white oak project. A bar, some cabinet, some paneling. I would like to have a filled or nearly filled finish on most of it. The countertop and bartop need to be a full fill.

I use MLC products nearly exclusively, just because they are convenient for me to purchase. For the countertop I did pretty good. The top was put through a widebelt and then random orbit sanded. Then it was stained. After the stain sat overnight I applied 3 successive coats of Level Sealer, waited overnight and sanded it down as far as I dared. Still needed more so I sprayed another two coats. At this time I am letting it shrink down as much as I can, I can see some of the grain starting to telegraph through, which is a good thing. I will resand it and then put on the final topcoats which will be a gloss Krystal

OK, so now for the question. I have raised panel doors and paneling that need to be done. I have already done them and only require a nearly filled finish. A little grain telegraphing through is OK. I sanded the doors, stained them and let it dry. I taped off the bead and the bevel because I can have the sealer bridging the expansion joint of the panel that will move during seasonal changed. I sprayed the level sealer on two coats with 45 minutes between them. I removed the tape on the panel bevel and sprayed the 3rd and final coat on the door. After that I sanded the level sealer down, again as far as I dared as to not burn through into the stain coat.

I'm looking for a less intensive way to get the same result. The 20"x32" doors took about an hour each to sand down the sealer. I haven't done the paneling yet and dread the sanding time that I will have to put into it to get the results I already have on my doors.

So... one of my buddies said that there is a water based pore filler that is stainable. So you put it on sanded wood, let it dry, sand if down and then stain it. Then I can have a nearly level surface and only need one or two coats of the level sealer or better yet none.

Do you have any special tricks, products you could point me towards. Would appreciate it. :smile:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

del schisler said:


> here are the sample's i made today with the blotch control. Can you see the difference? The wide board on the botton is a poplar with walnut oak cherry mahogany that sure show's up on this one . Thanks for looking


Most of what I'm seeing here is faulty preparation, lack of detail sanding, just like i saw in the video. Of course I'm sure on his part it was meant, since his intent was to show his product off. On "properly prepared wood" very little of this type of look where it has turned real dark would be the case. 

To properly prepare the surface it is best to apply a thinned out version of the stain you plan on applying by misting it on the surface very dry and let thoroughly dry. Then, using 120/150 you sand the surface till every trace of the color is removed. If looking for perfection then use either a cork block or put a pad with rubberized cork on your sander, this will insure glass flatness of the surface. 

Continue sanding with finer grits, till you have the surface polished to where you can look across it at a low light angle and see a perfect reflection, where any small remaining areas might still be a problem - this usually occurs around the 320-400 grits on most woods. When you return to sanding/polishing, with finer grits, you will continue to see improvement of the surface to where there should be no areas where it looks duller than all the surrounding area. meaning a "very" even sheen. If for some reason you run into areas that stubornly will not come out or be removed in this fashion, then apply a 1-2 lb. cut of shellac to the entire surface and resand till it is all removes, thus filling in those areas before proceeding to the very fine grits of paper. [personally i do this at about the 220 -280 stage of sanding and then check it out when i then go to 320, if there is still a problem i reapet the process before moving on.] 

Once you have accomplished this, then choose your type of stain/dye, be it solvent base or water and instead of applying it on the wood, firstly wet the wood down with the same solvent base as you have in the stain, then readily apply your stain over that. This will act to not allow the "flooding of the dye" into any real porous or soft areas, therefore keeping the so called "blotching" soft grain/interlocking grain, from going as dark as it does on less prepared surfaces. 

The other thing is to "brush" the stain out both with the grain and across. [while still wet] going with the grain lastly and then immediately wiping the excess off, if its pigment stain, or just letting it dry naturally if it is water dye. Most people don't know that all factory furniture was done this way in the late 19th century to the early part of the 20th. It has served me well my whole career, but then again, i was not looking to "obliviate" that which I love to personally see, as much figure and nuance as possible. 

As i was taught, preparation is 90% of the job and when done correctly, makes the last 10% that much easier to accomplish. The hardest thing for most new to finishing is "proper preperation" and matching colors, not applying them or clearing them. That's what everyone should work on mostly. But all steps should be done with intent to secure the finest work possible.

Sincerely,

Chemmy


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

LEO: Well to tell you the truth the answers you give turn into a lot of work and most guys want a nice finish with a minimal amount of work, me included. You have a vast knowledge of old world finishes that look beautiful. They are also time intensive.

Chemmy: You betcha, but i understand what your saying. lol

I've got a question for ya.

I am doing a quarter sawn white oak project. A bar, some cabinet, some paneling. I would like to have a filled or nearly filled finish on most of it. The countertop and bartop need to be a full fill.

I use MLC products nearly exclusively, just because they are convenient for me to purchase. For the countertop I did pretty good. The top was put through a widebelt and then random orbit sanded. Then it was stained. After the stain sat overnight I applied 3 successive coats of Level Sealer, waited overnight and sanded it down as far as I dared. Still needed more so I sprayed another two coats. At this time I am letting it shrink down as much as I can, I can see some of the grain starting to telegraph through, which is a good thing. I will resand it and then put on the final topcoats which will be a gloss Krystal

Chemmy: What type of "stain" Leo? If oil base i can help, if water - "maybe" depends on how it's being applied. As to the "level sealer" is that solvent base or water?

OK, so now for the question. I have raised panel doors and paneling that need to be done. I have already done them and only require a nearly filled finish. A little grain telegraphing through is OK. I sanded the doors, stained them and let it dry. I taped off the bead and the bevel because I can have the sealer bridging the expansion joint of the panel that will move during seasonal changed. I sprayed the level sealer on two coats with 45 minutes between them. I removed the tape on the panel bevel and sprayed the 3rd and final coat on the door. After that I sanded the level sealer down, again as far as I dared as to not burn through into the stain coat.



I'm looking for a less intensive way to get the same result. The 20"x32" doors took about an hour each to sand down the sealer. I haven't done the paneling yet and dread the sanding time that I will have to put into it to get the results I already have on my doors.

So... one of my buddies said that there is a water based pore filler that is stainable. So you put it on sanded wood, let it dry, sand if down and then stain it. Then I can have a nearly level surface and only need one or two coats of the level sealer or better yet none.

Do you have any special tricks, products you could point me towards. Would appreciate it. :smile: 

CHEMMY: Yes i have a few Leo, but need more detail, like what your final grit of paper your using on the wood itself, as a last applied grit, and as above, the type of stain/dye your using also. going to bed in a few its 1 am here. but i will get back tomorrow ok? :thumbsup:


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Sure Chemmy, gonna hit the hay myself.

Last grit sanded is 150. I am using MLC Woodsong II stains, custom color, brown with orange undertones, so lots of orange dyes. Final topcoat will be semigloss MagnaKlear except for the tops which will be gloss Krystal.

I was looking around the net and it looks like Famowood water based trowel on grain filler seems to have good reviews. If I can find some I will be trying it out. Not sure if I will be able to find a local distributor though. I have a buddy that did/does floors so he might be able to help.

Much appreciate the help Chemmy. Thanks.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Sure Chemmy, gonna hit the hay myself.
> 
> Last grit sanded is 150. I am using MLC Woodsong II stains, custom color, brown with orange undertones, so lots of orange dyes. Final topcoat will be semigloss MagnaKlear except for the tops which will be gloss Krystal.
> 
> ...


Hi Leo, thx for the info, but you still have not clarified the stain type - water base or solvent? the brand-name does not tell me that info. 150 grit is normal for production and if so and the stain is water or oil, then you can make your own clear filler simply by adding 4/0 pumice to 2-3 lb cut wax-less shellac. This to, like the more common acrylic grain fillers out there can be brushed on and then plastic carded off to remove almost all from the surface, then sanded after drying with 150 grit W/D. [used dry not wet lol] Why wet or dry silicone carb.? faster removal, pumice is abrasive as you know so it needs something harder than itself to remove quicky. [be sure it is all removed to, else you will have problems with uniforming the stain/dye's penetration. 

You can also just go to your local art supply store and get acrylic paste used for building up grounds and do the same method. Or, since what your talking of using or trying is also that same base material [possibly with other things added. ] you can go try that route also. You know me, anytime i can make my own i do lol. But usually i go the shellac/pumice because i know that it neither needs stain ]being clear when clear coats are applied] and it fill approx. 80% or more of the pores if packed down in properly ok?

hope this helps. 

Chemmy


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Sorry, solvent base. Can you coat shellac with a acid catalyzed post cat conversion varnish or do I need to use a barrier like vinyl sealer?

Thanks


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Sorry, solvent base. Can you coat shellac with a acid catalyzed post cat conversion varnish or do I need to use a barrier like vinyl sealer?
> 
> Thanks


Not a problem Leo, Remember it will just be in the pores as you should have removed all traces from the main surfaces. If your still worried then just put a mist coat or more on first and let dry, and then continue with normal coats ok? and "yes" you can use the vinyl if it makes you fell safer lol. Plus if that's what you used on your other stuff, then i would stay with the same schedule. OH, and when applying the filler, make sure to not apply so much to a large area thet you do not have time to "easily" remove [a few sq. ft. at a time at most.] Remember it's shellac and it dries fairly quick as far as removing goes.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Been a while since I played with shellac, but I definitely remember it is fast drying. I started using it when I first started finishing and had a hard time working with it because of the dry time. But you learn the technique and move on.


Thanks.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Been a while since I played with shellac, but I definitely remember it is fast drying. I started using it when I first started finishing and had a hard time working with it because of the dry time. But you learn the technique and move on.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Just remeber - as always- try it on sample pieces first till you feel confident in using it correctly and if you have problem let me know and i will guide you through it ok?


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Tried a second coat to see if that would give me a more uniform look. I can't even tell the difference, except on the cherry ply (which turned only slightly more red).

Starting staining today. Happy enough with the results I've seen to move forward. Just gotta do some dusting first, get it nice 'n warm, and block of the nearest HVAC vent.

Any last minute tips of keeping the stain out of the glue joints?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Thadius856 said:


> Any last minute tips of keeping the stain out of the glue joints?


Are you staining before assembly?











 







.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Correct.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Thadius856 said:


> Correct.


Rarely, and I mean rarely will I stain before assembly. It would have to be some impossible part that's troublesome to access, or where two different parts get different stains.

I stain after assembly. Maybe it's just me, but I've used many different types of tapes to tape of the glue area, and there's always the possibility of bleed through. With some stains the glue doesn't hold very well. If staining after assembly, you then have the option to do any further sanding or fixing problems from assembly or ones you missed, before applying the stain.

Time wise, I don't want to be taping off joints.












 







.


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## Thadius856 (Nov 21, 2011)

Fair enough. I'm trying to avoid being hunched over these bookcases as much as possible. They're not unreachable, but I can see it being a PITA.

Considered going with a gel stain, but decided that the doubled cost wasn't worth the hassle. I was especially worried about glue squeeze-out and being unable to reach it with a sander (without breaking my neck), hence the decision.


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## jjrbus (Dec 6, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> +1.:yes: Ain't that the truth. I tell them that if they want it so damn uniform just use mica. I have contract documents that the client signs with provisions explaining that wood being a natural organic product cannot be guaranteed to be uniform in grain and color, and those differences are inherent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I love the look of what some consider "flaws" in wood, knots are my favorite! I never throw a knot out, just figure the best place to use it. If someone wants a uniform, consistent look, they really should buy plastic.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I don't care for knots, never have and never will. But making a stain perfect does give a certain look. Ever notice how many manufacturers use glaze on the cabinets? I'm betting it is because they use a spray on stain system and it comes out extremely even. Then they use the glaze to break up that monochromatic look.


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