# Faceframe/Toe Kick Question



## nickp001 (Aug 31, 2011)

This is going to be difficult for me to explain, but I'll do my best. 

I'm designing and building kitchen cabinets for my brother. I've had some experience building cabinets, but not a lot. My question is regarding faceframes and kicks. 

My toe kicks are being built as separate units from the cabinets and I want a 4" high by 3" deep kick. I want the top of my bottom rail to be flush with the top of the bottom of the cabinet. My bottom rail is 2" wide and my carcass material is 3/4" pre-finished maple ply. This means that the bottom rail will overhang the bottom of the cabinet box by about 1 1/4". So, does this mean that I need to build my kicks 5 1/4" high in order to give the appearance of a 4" high kick.

Does this make any sense at all?:icon_confused:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

nickp001 said:


> This is going to be difficult for me to explain, but I'll do my best.
> 
> I'm designing and building kitchen cabinets for my brother. I've had some experience building cabinets, but not a lot. My question is regarding faceframes and kicks.
> 
> ...


 







I would make the bottom rail 3/4".












 







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## Jim6620 (Jan 17, 2011)

We typically do a 1" bottom rail with pre finished bottom flush like you mentioned which is 23/32". So add 9/32" to the height of your toekick so the bottom of the rail measures 4" off the finished floor. Depending on how level the floor is, if you have a long run with a high spot I would make the bases 3/8 less in height to allow for shimming. Then cover with 1/4" ply scribed to the floor. Having that space behind the bottom rail is a nice place to hide any gaps and give you they will only be seen if your on the floor looking in there.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes to your question. When I build my cabinets I usually build the toespaces on the cabinets but have done it both ways. I make my toespaces 3 1/2" high set back 3". I don't make a bottom rail on the cabinets but run 1/4"x 3/4" rabbet on ends of the stiles for the bottom of the shelf and edge the shelf with S4S 1/2" x 3/4 solid wood. Then I make my doors flush with the bottom of the shelf.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes to your question. When I build my cabinets I usually build the toespaces on the cabinets but have done it both ways. I make my toespaces 3 1/2" high set back 3". I don't make a bottom rail on the cabinets but run 1/4"x 3/4" rabbet on ends of the stiles for the bottom of the shelf and edge the shelf with S4S 1/2" x 3/4 solid wood. Then I make my doors flush with the bottom of the shelf.


Steve,
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

I just went out and measured the bottom rail of the shop cabinets that I built, 2". My toe kick was built separate and is 4" high by 3" deep. I never thought about how it would "look" but my feet fit into the toe kick w/o a problem. 

The only problem that I have noticed is that the push broom doesn't quite fit under the 2" face frame bottom rail. If I ever build another shop the bottom rail will probably be as Steve suggests.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I recon so. I don't make mine that tall but if you have big toes....:thumbsup:

...Oh and I make my bottom rails 1.5" w/ 3/4" overlay doors


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> View attachment 28720
> 
> 
> I recon so. I don't make mine that tall but if you have big toes....:thumbsup:
> ...


Why would you need a 2" bottom rail?












 







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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Really the only problem with making the bottom rail 2" wide is you loose 1 1/4" of storage space inside the cabinet. Most people want all they can get.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Why would you need a 2" bottom rail?


hmmm 
1) even reveal around the door 
2) 3/4 is more difficult to attach
3) system of hanging doors is facilitated by the lip below
4) wider is more ridgid than narrow
5) standardization with other rails and styles
6) etc

Want me to change it?

Why would you need a 3/4" bottom rail?

It's also probably a holdover from the old days when I used plywood for face frames on paint grade cabinets....and it was part of the "system" or method I was taught by the maker I worked with. 

I have since changed some elements back and forth as I began using different methods of attaching face frames. I used to build customs on the jobsite when I first started. The boxes were not separate units but long sections on a single platform. This made the face frames long and flimsy to install and the face frames were stronger during that installation process. 

I used to make the top rails, mid rails under drawers or dummies and the bottom rails all different widths but to stream line the parts I began making them a standard width. 

But...I'm flexible!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> hmmm
> 1) even reveal around the door
> 2) 3/4 is more difficult to attach
> 3) system of hanging doors is facilitated by the lip below
> ...


1) Lines up flush both edges to the floor of the cabinet.
2) 3/4" is as easy to attach as 2"...just glue and clamps.
3) Hanging doors can be taken off from the bottom edge.
4) No real need for any rigidity to the bottom rail, as it's attached to the floor of the cabinet. Face frames aren't a necessity as frameless methods work just fine.
5) Visual aspect to the other rails and stiles, is not pertinent unless it's necessary to have the same exposure. It will vary between doors, and possibly at the finished ends.

Do I want you to change it? Well, that's up to you.
1) A 2" bottom rail with maintaining a 4" height cuts 1.25" out of the usable interior cabinet space.
2) A 4" high toe kick is commensurate with the height of most kitchen appliances for their toe area.












 







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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> A 4" high toe kick is commensurate with the height of most kitchen appliances for their toe area.


now THAT one matters!


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

BTW..you're in florida...shouldn't you be building cabinets up on stilts? That's why you like the rails flush...so water will run out!:thumbsup:

If you have a model I would like to have a look at your system.

One thing I need to find is a better/cheaper/faster way to clamp on face frames. I've changed to pocket screws for joining face frames. It's so much faster and better than bisquits!!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> BTW..you're in florida...shouldn't you be building cabinets up on stilts? That's why you like the rails flush...so water will run out!:thumbsup:


I like them flush so nothing gets hung up underneath or can catch the edge of the FF. 



mics_54 said:


> If you have a model I would like to have a look at your system.


I prefer frameless cabinets.



mics_54 said:


> One thing I need to find is a better/cheaper/faster way to clamp on face frames. I've changed to pocket screws for joining face frames. It's so much faster and better than bisquits!!


Have you tried pop rivets, nuts and bolts, or 16d galvanized nails?:thumbsup:












 







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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I haven't tried those...is the galv for the sea water?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

nickp001 said:


> This is going to be difficult for me to explain, but I'll do my best.
> 
> I'm designing and building kitchen cabinets for my brother. I've had some experience building cabinets, but not a lot. My question is regarding faceframes and kicks.
> 
> ...


 
"So, does this mean that I need to build my kicks 5 1/4" high in order to give the appearance of a 4" high kick."

Yes:yes:...


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## fixrite (Dec 1, 2010)

If your brother is going to be doing the dishes then an oversized toe kick is a good idea, if he doesn't do the dishes, then who cares. :icon_smile::laughing::laughing::laughing: Ooopppsss I think that was my inside voice :huh::huh:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> View attachment 28720
> 
> 
> I recon so. I don't make mine that tall but if you have big toes....:thumbsup:
> ...


I agree that is how I make mine.



cabinetman said:


> Why would you need a 2" bottom rail?
> 
> 
> .


Cman the same reason people choose face frames it's the appearance they like. I usually go 1 3/4" but have used 2" either way it will be hard for you to understand because you don't like face frames.:laughing::laughing:


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