# How come I can spray shellac, but I can't spray lacquer?



## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I just got done spraying a small project with shellac. It looks great. But, when I've tried to spray lacquer, it never turns out as well. The lacquer ends up with orange peel or what looks like bubbles in it. I know that shellac works differently than lacquer, but how can I take my success with shellac and translate it into success with lacquer?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> I just got done spraying a small project with shellac. It looks great. But, when I've tried to spray lacquer, it never turns out as well. The lacquer ends up with orange peel or what looks like bubbles in it. I know that shellac works differently than lacquer, but how can I take my success with shellac and translate it into success with lacquer?


Orange peal and bubbles are a sign the lacquer was too thick. Add some lacquer thinner and the problem will go away. Just be careful not to add too much thinner. Get it too thin and it screws with the sheen.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks Steve. 

With shellac, it seems I can thin as much as I want, it just takes a zillion coats to get any build. Sounds like that's not the case with lacquer. What would you suggest as a starting point for thinning lacquer? I think during my last attempt, I was thinning 30% (70% lacquer 30% thinner). I was using Behlen's proprietary thinner. Any suggestions for a different thinner?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> Thanks Steve.
> 
> With shellac, it seems I can thin as much as I want, it just takes a zillion coats to get any build. Sounds like that's not the case with lacquer. What would you suggest as a starting point for thinning lacquer? I think during my last attempt, I was thinning 30% (70% lacquer 30% thinner). I was using Behlen's proprietary thinner. Any suggestions for a different thinner?


If orange peal is the only problem it shouldn't take very much thinner to make it work right. There is a fine line between being too thick to spray and working perfect with lacquer. You might just add an ounce or so to the quart to start with and see what happens.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

I guess once you get it dialed in, it's great, but it sure is a long road to get there...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> I guess once you get it dialed in, it's great, but it sure is a long road to get there...


Some people use a viscosity cup to thin the finish. I've never had one. I can usually tell when stirring it if it's too thick or not. When I got into the business it was a lot easier. Regardless of what brand lacquer you bought you thinned it 50/50. Now every brand is different ranging from thinning a little to not at all.


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## J_L (Apr 22, 2014)

I use an hvlp gun and put the lacquer in the gun and pull the trigger with no air to see the stream that comes out. If it drips, it's too thick. If it comes out in a nice stream, rock and roll. 

Your ratios for the mix may also change throughout the year based on the temperature and humidity.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

For What it's worth, I'm using Behlen's instrument lacquer. The instructions say to shoot a coat of sanding sealer, then 5 coats of lacquer FULL STRENGTH, sand, then a single coat 50/50. Even with a big tip, that wasn't working for me. It wasn't even orange peel, it was more like crater peel! Without sanding between coats, the craters just got worse with each successive coat. Now, I must factor in that I'm a rookie, but at this rate, I'll run out of boards to test on and bankrupt myself buying lacquer...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> For What it's worth, I'm using Behlen's instrument lacquer. The instructions say to shoot a coat of sanding sealer, then 5 coats of lacquer FULL STRENGTH, sand, then a single coat 50/50. Even with a big tip, that wasn't working for me. It wasn't even orange peel, it was more like crater peel! Without sanding between coats, the craters just got worse with each successive coat. Now, I must factor in that I'm a rookie, but at this rate, I'll run out of boards to test on and bankrupt myself buying lacquer...


Can you post a picture. I'm wondering if you are having a problem with fisheye. If that is the case you need to add a silicone additive to the finish.


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## Tom-G (Nov 11, 2012)

I have used that stringed instrument lacquer. It can lay down as a nice wet coat full strength without thinning. I used a conventional sprayer (not HVLP). It was years ago so I don't remember the spray gun setup. I seem to recall it didn't need much air pressure. Try reducing the air pressure at the gun. In addition, instead of thinner you may need a little bit of Behlen's retarder which will slow down the drying and give the wet film a chance to level out. The 50:50 final coat will give a nice finish but be careful as it's much easier to get runs. I did full strength final coats as my finishing schedule included wet sanding the final coat (can't remember if 2,000 grit or finer) and then polishing with compound which gives a deep gloss finish! I did let the finish cure for 3 - 4 weeks before wet sanding. One other thought, did you use Behlen's recommended vinyl sealer as the first coat under the SIL? I always used it. Not sure if that would make a difference as to the cratering you are getting.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Can you post a picture. I'm wondering if you are having a problem with fisheye. If that is the case you need to add a silicone additive to the finish.


My unsuccessful samples have been converted to heat  so I don't have any pictures. I used the word "craters" for dramatic effect, but I'm pretty sure it's orange peel, not fisheye. 

I suppose the goal of the instructions is to build some thickness no matter how ugly, sand it flat and shoot a thin coat and walk away. 

I am using an HVLP gun. Maybe I should try my conventional gun. I tend to prefer the HVLP gun because I feel like the lower pressure gives me more control and of course my shop isn't in a fog after spraying.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Another thing that came to mind, that might help you guys help me figure out what I'm doing wrong:

When I spray, I try to keep the fan at about 4" and spray about 6-7" from the surface. I set the regulator on the gun to 25 psi based on the manufacturers recommendation. As I spray, I overlap each previous pass by about 50%. I have noticed as I'm doing this, it looks like the air from the spray is blowing the previous pass out of the way. I don't know if this helps at all, I just thought it was worth mentioning in case it lit a lightbulb for anyone.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Every different sprayer will take a different setting so that part is hard to say. I use a siphon sprayer which I normally spray at 40 psi and spray a fan about 6" wide and keep the sprayer about a foot from the surface. 

You shouldn't be blowing the previous spray, it should layer like shingles keeping a wet edge until you finish the area you are spraying. If the lacquer it too thick or the weather is too hot sometimes you have a hard time keeping a wet edge and end up seeing each spray individually. In hot weather sometimes I will add retarder thinner to slow down the drying time to be sure to keep a wet edge. If the problem is just the finish being too thick then just thinner is needed.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

I've sprayed lacquer quite a bit, I use Deft and don't thin it, to me it is about the easiest finish to spray, but the fumes are a problem in a tight shop, so I have switched to dewaxed shellac and water based poly, bot sprayed and I have been getting pretty good results

I will never use water based straight on the wood, it raises the grain too much and I am not a good hand sander LOL


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Catpower said:


> I've sprayed lacquer quite a bit, I use Deft and don't thin it, to me it is about the easiest finish to spray, but the fumes are a problem in a tight shop, so I have switched to dewaxed shellac and water based poly, bot sprayed and I have been getting pretty good results
> 
> I will never use water based straight on the wood, it raises the grain too much and I am not a good hand sander LOL


I'd be interested to know which waterbased finish you're using. I've tried several and found them to be even more finicky about humidity and temp than solvent lacquer.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Quickstep said:


> I'd be interested to know which waterbased finish you're using. I've tried several and found them to be even more finicky about humidity and temp than solvent lacquer.



I use Minwax Polyacylic, I spray it right out of the can no thinning, they say not to thin it, someday I am going to try thinning it, when I have more time, but when I lay it down at first it looks pretty chitty, but it levels right out for a real nice looking finish


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Back in the good old days viscosity wasn't as much of an issue, I could spray peanut butter out of my cup gun just by kicking up the atomizing air to 90 pounds or so. Tons of overspray but it would lay out like a dream. Now almost all guns are HVLP or LVLP or some combination of letters. What that really means to a finisher is you no longer can kick up air pressure to atomize your finish. Your only controls are temperature and thinner to control the viscosity and therefore atomization. Also a lot of finishes are packaged pre-reduced for "convenience". In reality thinner is cheaper than resin and they make more money that way. I always used a viscosity cup because I needed to make sure everyone was doing exactly the same thing in a large finish department. There are no standard reductions to finish, you will use much less thinner in the summer on a hot day than in the winter in a cold shop. Another advantage is once you find the "sweet spot" of viscosity for your equipment it will never change with that tip and air cap combination, so you will develop a "feel" for how it should look when properly reduced. You can try some tests with different percentages of thinner until you get one that sprays perfectly but how are you going to repeat that on a day that is hotter or colder or has higher humidity and the finis blushes on you? Check out this video on how to use one and why.


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## J_L (Apr 22, 2014)

I used to use a viscosity cup until I learned what the viscosity needed to be and how the finish looked coming out of my gun without air. When I was able to get consistent results without it, I stopped using it as it was just one more piece to clean. Same thing for a mil gauge. I'll still occasionally check how thick of a coat I've laid out but most times now its by eye.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

J L said:


> I use an hvlp gun and put the lacquer in the gun and pull the trigger with no air to see the stream that comes out. If it drips, it's too thick. If it comes out in a nice stream, rock and roll.
> 
> Your ratios for the mix may also change throughout the year based on the temperature and humidity.


What JL said above is correct.

Once you get a nice stream of lacquer coming out of the gun as JL said, you can then hook up the air and set it to roughly 40 pounds to start. Depending on what type gun you are using, you can then adjust the air up or down so that the lacquer is atomized properly.


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## cabinetbob (May 5, 2016)

I dont thin my lacquer. Why? I want it to build up fast for a nice hard durable finish. If your having a problem spraying it, its more likely the gun, Lacquer is thin and light. for the most part. I myself use a campbell pre cat magna klear satin. Yes, its costly, I pay over $200 for a 5 gal can. Lotta money. About 42 a gal. Sherwin williams has promar gloss lacquer build for around 30 a gal. Not a fan of promar, Sherwin wiliiams also has a sanding sealer clear, sherwin product that is pretty nice. Around the same price. I also have a kremlin 1020 system, It sprays like 85% of material on the product. Where s most lower end systems may cover 50%. That means your using more material and time to finish your products. Anyway, food for thought. Think I may just go back to laminating. Getting tired of all this..lol


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I thin most everything till it comes out smoothly. T-77 is $26 a gal. Rather use it than Campbell...Wait....Campbell is S&W....


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> I thin most everything till it comes out smoothly. T-77 is $26 a gal. Rather use it than Campbell...Wait....Campbell is S&W....


Well, Sherwin "owns" ML, but Sherwin doesnt make the material for ML, so there is slight difference. Just like we dont make Valspar paint, even though we own them. Sherwin just makes profit off of them, just like PPG makes profit off of their other ventures, like FLOOD for example.

Ive been in a furniture factory in Dillon SC where they kicked out a ML Campbell rep and brought in a SW rep right behind them. Either way, Sherwin makes money.

For the most part, almost all Sealers and Lacquers call to be thinned 10%-15% if you look at their product data sheet.


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## cabinetbob (May 5, 2016)

I spray straight from the 5 gal bucket, so trying to thin doesn't work too well at first. I sometimes use a retarder when its really humid. but for the most part I really don't thin sealer or lacquer. Cant say my magnaklear has been the best. I seen it cloud up or get milky, when that happens, its over. theres no refinishing it. I have to sand it all down and start over. Then no one can tell me why. I've sent pictures to my sales rep and there boss and no one knows. That also happens when I'm down close to the bottom. Not like I domt stir it up well.. IDK..


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Catpower said:


> I've sprayed lacquer quite a bit, I use Deft and don't thin it, to me it is about the easiest finish to spray, but the fumes are a problem in a tight shop, so I have switched to dewaxed shellac and water based poly, bot sprayed and I have been getting pretty good results
> 
> I will never use water based straight on the wood, it raises the grain too much and I am not a good hand sander LOL


Thinking about hand sanding in the auto body world orange peel is almost always dealt with by hand sanding, very fine grits, usually wet sanding followed by a lot of buffing. Man, I wish I had a nickel back for every hour I spent hand wet sanding someone else's darn car working for someone else. That was on metal surfaces though. I'm not sure you would like the results on wooden surfaces.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

cabinetbob said:


> I spray straight from the 5 gal bucket, so trying to thin doesn't work too well at first. I sometimes use a retarder when its really humid. but for the most part I really don't thin sealer or lacquer. Cant say my magnaklear has been the best. I seen it cloud up or get milky, when that happens, its over. theres no refinishing it. I have to sand it all down and start over. Then no one can tell me why. I've sent pictures to my sales rep and there boss and no one knows. That also happens when I'm down close to the bottom. Not like I domt stir it up well.. IDK..


1. Whats your complete finishing system when this happens? 
2. What kind of retarder do you use?
3. How much retarder do you put in it....say per gallon?
4. Is the cloudy appearance happening on the first or second coat of conversion coating?

Humidity will definitely play a part in cloudiness or blushing. Sometimes whats under the coating, and how the coating is being applied, will have some effect as well. Applying too much for instance will cause cloudiness in some cases.


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## WhoWoodHaveThought (May 21, 2017)

#2 got it right, along with #7. Thin it out. If it comes out of the gun in drips, it's too thick. If it comes out in a nice stream (like a water gun), it should be fine.


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## Techsniffer (Feb 19, 2017)

allpurpose said:


> Thinking about hand sanding in the auto body world orange peel is almost always dealt with by hand sanding, very fine grits, usually wet sanding followed by a lot of buffing. Man, I wish I had a nickel back for every hour I spent hand wet sanding someone else's darn car working for someone else. That was on metal surfaces though. I'm not sure you would like the results on wooden surfaces.


I used to work in the body & paint shop of an auto auction, between the prep, the paint, the cleanup, the sanding, the buffing... If I had a nickel for every clear coat I burnt through because another painter was too lazy to clean up their runs before shooting clear....


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

WhoWoodHaveThought said:


> #2 got it right, along with #7. Thin it out. If it comes out of the gun in drips, it's too thick. If it comes out in a nice stream (like a water gun), it should be fine.


Very clever and easy! How much do you take into account tip size? I assume this is done with to the fluid valve wide open so the needle is fully retracted?


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## WhoWoodHaveThought (May 21, 2017)

Quickstep said:


> Very clever and easy! How much do you take into account tip size? I assume this is done with to the fluid valve wide open so the needle is fully retracted?


I wouldn't know. I've heard about these methods many times but never tried them myself. I have seen it done many times, but I have never used shellac or lacquer, I use wood oil, stain, beeswax, and olive oil (on my cutting boards).


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Quickstep said:


> Very clever and easy! How much do you take into account tip size? I assume this is done with to the fluid valve wide open so the needle is fully retracted?


Tip size plays a part. It should flow out of the gun and start to fall downward about 8 inches from the nozzle. Cant really try this step with a cup gun though. Only a pressure pot and a gravity feed.


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## cabinetbob (May 5, 2016)

It happens on the magnaklear . I use cambel sanding sealer. 2 coats. Its all in a 5 gal pale. I spray straight from that since my systems have a sump. Usually down to about maybe a gal or so left and it would happen on the first coat of lacquer. Thats when I may use a little retarder or thinner. I sometimes wonder if, since it may be sitting there for about a week or so before I use it again and the weather been pretty humid if that has anything to do with it. But I seen it happen in the winter time too. I dont have a spray booth. That sucks. But..so, I'm not just not sure. The magna klear is not suppose to yellow after time. like the magnamax does. But, never had a problem with that at all.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

ColorStylist said:


> Tip size plays a part. It should flow out of the gun and start to fall downward about 8 inches from the nozzle. Cant really try this step with a cup gun though. Only a pressure pot and a gravity feed.



8 inches... I don't think I get that kind of distance when I'm pouring straight thinner through, but I'm looking forward to doing a test!


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

cabinetbob said:


> It happens on the magnaklear .* I use cambel sanding sealer*. 2 coats. Its all in a 5 gal pale. I spray straight from that since my systems have a sump. Usually down to about maybe a gal or so left and it would happen on the first coat of lacquer. Thats when I may use a little retarder or thinner. I sometimes wonder if, since it may be sitting there for about a week or so before I use it again and the weather been pretty humid if that has anything to do with it. But I seen it happen in the winter time too. I dont have a spray booth. That sucks. But..so, I'm not just not sure. The magna klear is not suppose to yellow after time. like the magnamax does. But, never had a problem with that at all.


I would eliminate the sanding sealer and just use the Magnaklear as a self seal system. You can probably get away with 2 coats of it and be done. Make sure you keep it agitated while in use. I would also use the recommended retarder for that material as some materials act finicky if you dont. 

Here is the PDS for that material:
http://www.distributorserviceinc.com/PDF/MagnaKlear Pre-Cat Clear Conversion Coating-PI.pdf


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Quickstep said:


> 8 inches... I don't think I get that kind of distance when I'm pouring straight thinner through, but I'm looking forward to doing a test!


Maybe more like 4 to 6 inches.....I exaggerate sometimes. HAHA

Anyway, it should come out pretty good before falling downward.


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