# foggy streaks in wipe on poly



## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I am having a problem with there being foggy wipe marks that show where I have wiped on the poly. It has been very humid here although I am indoors in a heated house. I sanded the table top with 0000 steel wool and now am wondering what I am doing wrong. Any suggestions? Thanks!!


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

Probably need to see a picture and know more about your process. For instance, is this the first coat? Did you sand the poly or the wood with the 0000 steel wool? A picture and more description would be helpful. 

Thanks,

David


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I wish I had taken a picture, unfortunately did not. This was the 3rd coat of wipe on. I am wondering if perhaps I am putting it down too thin. Would that cause it to streak?


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm no professional but I'm afraid any of us would just be guessing with out knowing exactly what you did during each step in the process. I dont know why it would be foggy unless their was moisture present, like maybe you wiped the top with a damp rag or something before applying. If it hasn't been drying long, you may want to just leave it be for a day or two and see if it goes away while it cures.

My questions from here would be.
1. Did you sand the wood with steel wool or sand paper?
2. Did you stain?
3. Were the streaks present after the first coat or the third?
4. How long did you wait between coats?
5. If you sanded between coats did you sand evenly or just in spots?
6. How long has the piece been drying since you noticed the streaks?

Sorry, thats all I can think of but detailed steps may help us understand.

David


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

*steps taken*

I initially used 150 grit to remove the old finish off of the 1920's walnut veneer table. Then I sanded with 220. I did not use a conditioner. I then stained using minwax dark walnut oil based stain. It was blotchy so I again sanded back down but with it being veneer I could only do so much. I then changed to an oil base minwax get stain and got the finish looking pretty good. I put on 2 coats of oil based minwax wipe on poly 6 hours apart with no sanding. I don't remember whether it had the wipe marks after that. I sanded it with 0000 steel wool till the surface was dulled down and then I wiped on this last coat of poly. I have since sanded the entire surface again with 0000 steel wool as I wanted to release any moisture asap if that was trapped in the finish. So it is now sitting ready for me to apply the next coat of finish.


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## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

Could be a few things. I would omit using steel wool. It can breakdown and leave little particles.

How long did you let the gel stain dry? 
Where was the table stored before you started working on it? 
Where was the poly stored? New can? I haven't used any Minwax product in a very long time but have had old cans of anything accumulate misture.


I


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I let the gel stain dry 48 hours. The table was stored in my dining room. The poly was a new can from home depot and stored in the dining room as well. I will switch to 220 grit. I am using a microfiber wax application pad to apply. Should it be almost dripping wet with poly? thanks!!


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

to heavy it will be foggy go lite!!and more coats


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

I have had this happen with water base wipe on , brushed it on by mistake wrong can, could not figure it out to I realized, , was wipe on I brushed on !! same can, think it cured on top but not right thro it is so thin when wiping on . I have never had issue since but this is with water base so , not sure ?


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I went ahead and sanded the table top down well with 220 because there were particles of steel wool in it that were not there after I had stained it. I did try to put the last coat of wipe on on heavier so maybe that is why it fogged. I am trying to fill the pores using the topcoat and perhaps this is foolish and unrealistic. Should I consider doing 3 coats of brush on oil based poly, sand it smooth, and then follow with 2 or 3 coats of wipe on?


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I went ahead and put a coat of wipe on poly on this morning and also got some 320 grit sandpaper. Part of the problem that I may be having is having never used this I don't know what to expect. Perhaps it is supposed to have foggy streaks in it until it cures for a certain amount of time. My dad always used tung oil and it worked great. I am sorta wishing I had gone that route.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

is the wipe on water based? or oil?. Better to go thin coats and sand and build up ,you will fill pores just takes time , and temperature in room to may affect it, hard to say , all I no is it happened to me like I said with the water base and was put on to heavy and all fogged, normally I wipe it on with a rag.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

It is oil based and I am using a microfiber pad. 2nd coat drying now. I put it on 4 1/2 hours after the first. I am planning on putting a 3rd coat on later today after 2nd coat has dried 4 1/2 hours. No sanding between coats so far. I will let it dry overnight and tomorrow morning sand with 320 grit and then put on 3 more coats in the same time frame as today and without sanding between coats and then just let it cure for 3 or 4 days and see what it looks like. It looks great when I first put it on and it's wet. Perhaps the wipe marks will go away, that is what I am hoping.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think you have a combination of causes that might have caused streaks in the finish. First sanding a finish off is a poor way to strip a finish. Sanding removes what is on the surface but doesn't get what is penetrated into the wood. It's always better to strip the finish off wood with chemical removers. It may be some of the original finish is still there. The humid weather definitely could have caused cloudiness however it usually clouds 100% rather than streaks. Putting two coats of stain on could have caused adhesion problems with the topcoat. It may be the finish is beginning to fail. If I'm understanding you correctly you rubbed the stain wood with steel wool. This would have solved the adhesion problem but the steel wood is dirty and could itself stained the wood making streaks. 

It would help a lot if you could get us a picture. All we can do is guess what is going on.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I will add a pic in the morning. I did not sand the stained wood with steel wool. I did sand it with steel wool after putting on 2 coats of wipe on, done within 6 hours of each other. In sanding back into the poly I have not noticed any adhesion problems, it all seemed bonded together well. I only went back into it because there were bits of steel wool embedded in the 3rd coat of poly that I put on and I was concerned about moisture entrapment and therefore thought it made sense. I stripped the table top down initially by mechanical sanding due to my fear of a stripper lifting the walnut veneer. I am really appreciative of all the input, you guys are super nice to take your time to help!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The only way a remover would affect veneer is if it was coming off already. Then it usually just bubbles up in spots. I find that's more of a help than a hindrance. If the veneer is loose that is the best time to glue it back down while you are making a restoration.


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

*foggy finish*

Imo you may have semi gloss poly that is not mix well Or, You need to let it dry longer between coats. I always use gloss poly and steelwool it down to the gloss you like.:thumbsup:


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

It is clear satin poly shaken very well before each use. I did buy some gloss wipe on as well and have to kinda wonder if it would be working better. Also I guess there is the possibility that this satin poly is a bad batch. I worked for Sherwin Williams for several years on the Martin Senour automotive paint side. We definitely had to deal with the occasional bad batch so I guess anything is possible although I would suspect user error most given my lack of experience with refinishing furniture. I will post a pic in the morning after it has dried overnight, that should help.


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## djonesax (Mar 3, 2008)

Its probably not causing your problems but I would stir that poly versus shaking it.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

I always build coats with gloss, then put preferred coat on last sat /semi gloss. Like Steve said we are guessing , I would wait a bit longer between coats to let it cure bit more .


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Ok so here is a pic of where I am at now after 3 coats of wipe on satin poly put on 4 1/2 hours apart. It is looking better, I have made sure to keep the room at 70, whereas before I think I let it go near 60. You can hopefully see the streaks where I have wiped the poly on. I plan on adding another 6 coats so it will hopefully fill the grain. I was going to scuff it with 320 grit and then do 3 coats just like I did last time, then scuff again and 3 more coats the following day. But I want to wait to hear what everyone thinks first. Maybe these streaks will go away or can be buffed out if they are in my final topcoat. Maybe I should change to gloss instead of this satin? I would be happy with it gloss or satin as long as there are not streaks in the finish. The surface btw was very smooth when I started the poly.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Do the streaks show if you put water on it? To me it looks like scuff marks where you have been rubbing on it. If that is what it is it can be rubbed out with a white scotch brite pad. It could also be buffed out however you would end up with a gloss finish instead of satin. 

When you rub a finish as you get closer to having it rubbed out use less and less pressure. This will help with the scuff marks. Personally I don't like rubbing a finish. I prefer to spray a finish and when I spray the final coat on I walk away from it and I'm done. It has a lot more uniform sheen that way.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Steve, The streaks seem to show wet or not. I have not rubbed on it at all since the last coat. From reading some previous posts on here about streaks I am starting to suspect that my shaking of the satin poly was inadequate. That would make sense because what it really looks like is an uneven dispersion of the flattening agent. My plan of action is to sand with 320, vacuum and then wipe with a damp cloth. I will probably then just let it dry overnight and tomorrow morning wipe it off with a dry cloth one more time and then go with 3 coats of a brand new can of wipe on gloss. Also I have been using a tack rag as a final wipe. Is that a no no. That I guess could also cause these streaks although I am exerting minimal pressure so as not to be putting wax down on surface. Maybe I am anyway and that is the source of the streaking. Viewed from any other angle the streaks don't show at all.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I doubt if the streaks were caused by flattening compound. Flattening compound usually stays in clumps and makes little white spots here and there when it's not mixed. I've never seen it make streaks. If it is showing the streaks wet with water or mineral spirits on it I'm inclined to believe one layer or another blushed from the humidity and you managed to sand through that layer in spots making those spots clear where some streaks still have the blush. Regardless of what caused it unfortunately the only happy ending I see is strip it down to bare wood and start over. No rubbing or waxing is going to get rid of it and any wax you put on it complicates refinishing it.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

I think those are cause by the steel wool scuffing to early before it fully cured , you are creating streaks , then putting a coat on which is not filling in the streaks , it will never end. Iwould toss the steel wool give it a good sanding with 320 don't by afraid to give it a good go . then try a nother coat .


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

yes like steve said , try being aggressive give it a good sand , I have my doubts tho , and recoat. if not its only finish bud start over, better to start over then go half ass right


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I gave it a good sanding with 320 and then vacuumed and cleaned with a damp microfiber cloth. I will give it a coat of gloss wipe on poly out of the new container in the morning and see what I have, If that doesn't work then I guess I will chemically strip and start all over. I have heard Formby's poly remover is good.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

can you see streaks after sanding ? or is it all uniform , put some water on and see if you can still see streaking ,


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

I use swing stripper very awesome, but I buy it in 5 gal pails, not sure if you can get it in smaller volume.lots of ventilation required its wicked stuff,I am sure local hardware store will have some good stuff


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

It is streaky after sanding, not uniform. I am wondering whether when I sanded the original finish down I created a lot of underlying sanding steaks that are coming back to haunt me now. I sometimes used just sandpaper, no block, and maybe my finger pressure has created issues for me. Anyway I guess square 1 is to strip it down. Then what? Block sand with 220?


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

yes strip it down , cautious sanding, as you all ready sanded it .(veneer)180 /220 becarefull around the edges


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Phillip Jones said:


> It is streaky after sanding, not uniform. I am wondering whether when I sanded the original finish down I created a lot of underlying sanding steaks that are coming back to haunt me now. I sometimes used just sandpaper, no block, and maybe my finger pressure has created issues for me. Anyway I guess square 1 is to strip it down. Then what? Block sand with 220?


No, between the coats sanding didn't do it. All other things being correct if you sanded between the coats with a too coarse paper you would just see the texture of the sanding in the finish but it would be clear. What you have is the finish has some foreign substance suspended between the coats. It just isn't feasible to try to sand down below the contamination. You would end up going down to the wood in spots. 

If you decide to strip the finish off be sure to sand the wood to a uniform appearance as though nothing has ever been put on it. Then you can come back clean with the new finish. Be sure not to finish on a day when the humidity is sky high and give it more drying time than the directions say. The dry time recommendations are for warm dry weather. Cool weather takes a great deal longer.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

yes give it more drying time for sure as Steve said. let us no how things go /


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I went through a period one time when I was refinishing mahogany tables and the closer I would get to the right thickness of finish it would get cloudier and cloudier. I was spraying lacquer at the time and everyone kept telling me it was humidity that was doing it but it was happening in dry weather. There is no telling how many tables I had to strip the new finish off and start over. I was getting frustrated beyond imagination trying to figure out why the finish kept going bad. Then one day my compressor quit and I had to get a new one. I unhooked it from the plumbing that went through the shop and discovered it had been putting oil in the air. The little bit of oil mixed in the air was getting into the finish. It was so slight it wasn't affecting the other finishing I was doing with fewer coats, it just showed up on mahogany where I was putting a thicker finish on making a glass like finish. After replacing the compressor the problem with the finish quit. It doesn't take very much contamination to cloud the finish on dark wood. 

Some of the dust from the steel wood might be suspended in the finish. There is just no way of know what might be in your finish.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

*some sort of chemical reaction*

I put another coat of clear on last night using the new container of gloss wipe on poly. Almost immediately these streaks start developing. Now that it is dry you can literally feel the streaked areas being dull vs the gloss areas being slick. I have to assume that what I am dealing with is some sort of chemical reaction here caused by something embedded in the wood that was not removed by mechanical sanding. Perhaps 90 years of waxing the tabletop has left residue embedded in the wood? Or perhaps other things were spilled on the table top. I think the best thing to do is start by just stripping one of the leaves and see whether I can successfully put a finish on it. After I strip it should I use some type of sealer to attempt to seal whatever it is that is causing this. If so what type sealer would be best?


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Or now that I think of it the more likely issue is that I did not get all of the shellac off of it and I know you can't put poly over shellac. This furniture was made back when they used shellac.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

as Steve said start over, yes I don't spray any thing in shop with silicone oil ect . I have a friend with same issue as Steve furnace guy worked on his furnace spray something to lube it , when the furnace came on blew a mist which contaminated the wood /finish,took him forever to figure out why lol


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Are you using a non-gloss finish or a gloss finish? A non-gloss finish will leave an uneven milky fininsh. The flatters in the non-gloss finish do not lay down evenly unless the finish is thoroughly and frequently stirred.

If the above is the issue, it's easily fixed. Buy a new can of non-gloss finish, stir it thoroughly and wipe on a new top-coat. This will even out the finish.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I have stripped the one leaf using one of the breathable strippers. I did the process twice although most of it came off the first time. I cleaned it thoroughly with lacquer thinner. The stripping process did not affect my stain job at all, it still looks really good. As well the surface is quite smooth as I used a fine steel wool to wipe off all the remnants of the stripper after I had gotten the bulk of it off with the plastic scraper. I see no reason to sand into it and ruin the stain job as well as sand away more veneer that has already been sanded too much. I am going to try to wipe on another coat of clear gloss after I know it has had time to dry well enough. I will know then rather quickly if this is gonna work. I hope so but honestly it looks really good just stained so fallback plan will be just to have it stained and then wax it really well.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think whatever contamination you had was between the layers of finish. Usually any problem with waxes or silicone causes a different problem. It's called fisheye. It's clear but the finish tends to want to bead up like water on a freshly waxed car. 

The picture is of fisheye.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Well first of all thanks for the continued feedback. This website is awesome. I remember back when I was selling automotive paint for Sherwin that there was a guy who put WD-40 on the shafts of his mixing machine of toners to make it quiet. Needless to say the WD40 went down the shafts into the toners and all of his automotive customers were having fisheye. You would had to have seen the house I bought this furniture out of to truly understand the Pandora's box that has potentially been opened up on these pieces. The eccentric old woman was an artist, she died, and the son lived on there till he went insane. The roof had huge holes in it and water from above was leaking in and this furniture. As well windows were broken out and birds were living in the house and roosting on the dining room chairs. Only a glutton for punishment like myself would have lugged these pieces home, especially down the intense flight of stairs they had to traverse. But I am a fool for a project and I always finish projects regardless of the effort required. It really may be Steve that you had the best idea when you suggested re veneering the tops. I will post a pic in the morning after the 3rd coat of gloss poly goes on at 930 tonight and dries. I think then it will be obvious if poly is incompatible with whatever is in there. The question then is what to try next, perhaps shellac?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I really think if you would take the finish off when you go back if you would use sandpaper instead of steel wool, let the finish dry overnight between coats and thoroughly clean the surface before wiping the finish on, you won't have a problem.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Based on that I will skip the 3rd coat tonight and let it dry overnight. It seemed to be thoroughly dry after it had dried 5 hours when I put the 2nd coat on. I will go 320 grit and we will see. Thanks!!


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

What does worry me about sanding it with 320 at this point is that I have hardly put down any poly. There are areas that are quite dull looking and others have some sheen. That makes me suspicious of something in the wood, maybe I will post a pic tomorrow before I sand it. It really looks like I would be getting into the stain if I sand even lightly at this point.


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## billrlogan (Feb 15, 2014)

Multiple thin coats


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

This method seems to be working. I stripped the rest of the table and had to re stain it so I am going to go ahead and strip these 2 coats of poly off this leaf and stain it as well so all of it looks the same. I will continue doing 1 coat at a time with an overnight drying time and sanding with 320. Will let you know how it goes and post pic of final result.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

what are you using to wipe it on with ? just curious?


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

What you are describing sounds like the flatters in your finish were not thoroughly stirred into suspension. When you apply the finish to your wiping rag the flatters end up heavily on the rag. When you wipe the surface you are coating, the flatters are applied more heavily and variably than they should be. When the finish dries, the heavier flatters cause the surface to be more non-gloss than the manufacture intended. It's a common problem with non-gloss varnishes.

The solution is easy. First, buy a new can of finish--any finish remaining in your existing can will have a very variable amount of flatters and give problematic results. Scuff sand the surface with 320 or 400 grit paper. Now, thoroughly and carefully stir the new can of finish. Now pore some finish into a "soup dish" shaped container, charge your application wiper and evenly apply a new coat of finish Re-stir periodically during application. When this new coat dries, your surface will be clear.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Ricko I was using a microfiber pad I bought at the auto parts store that is made for applying wax. Howard I honestly like the look of the gloss better so I think I am just going to stay with that. This furniture was made in the 1910-1920 time frame so I guess it would have originally had a gloss shellac finish anyway. I have all of the table stripped and stained. There is one small area that was bleached out from something that I am going to try to blend in with another coat of stain. It is more gray looking now than the rest of the table. I will do that tomorrow and then let it dry overnight. Hopefully Monday morning I can put the 1st coat of poly on. Then I will go one coat per day with 320 grit sanding each time till I get at least 6 or 7 coats. Thanks again for all the help!! Will keep you posted.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

you could always seal it with dewaxed shellac , then proceed with wipe on once it is fully cured


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

just for curiosity , try brushing a coat on even , from a can and see your results .


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

brush a coat on just to see , narrow down your options on whats going on? , or spray


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I have the table top stained and I went ahead and stripped the apron as well as that made sense to do that at the same time as the top. It looks really good right now. I am thinking about trying the gloss clear on just one of the leaves and that way worse case I don't have to strip this whole thing again. Will keep you posted for sure.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When you are using a satin or semi-gloss finish it's always best to build the finish with gloss and use the different sheen for the final coat anyway.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> I am having a problem with there being foggy wipe marks that show where I have wiped on the poly.

What you describe sounds like you did not thoroughly stir in the flatters in a non-gloss finish. With insufficient stirring, the flatters fall out of suspension and end up concentrated in the bottom of the can. When you wipe on initially, you are wetting your wiper in almost gloss finish. As you use more of the finish, you are getting finish that has more concentration of flatters causing a milky looking finish. The solution is fairly simple.

If this is the problem, the fix is to let the finnish dry and cure. Then using 320 or 400 grit paper light, but completely scuff sand the whole affected surface. Now, buy a new can of finish because the finish remaining in the original can has an unknown and uneven amount of flatters in the solution. Thoroughly stir the new material (100 strokes in one direction then stir 100 strokes in the other keeping your stirrer in contact with the bottom of the can. Now pour some new finish into a tray and start the wiping process. Re-stir frequently during the application process.

The surface you are coating will have the gloss from the final finish.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

if you brush a coat on will narrow your options , toss the steel wool for sure !! . how are things going ?


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Got rid of the steel wool, using 320 grit like Steve said to do. Just put 3rd coat of wipe on gloss on after sanding with 320. Can I put the 4th coat on after this 3rd coat has dried 8 hours without sanding? Then I could sand and do 2 more coats the same way for a total of 6. The leaf that I am working on looks really good. The table top and apron look great stained, just want to make sure this leaf works out so I don't have to do another big stripping job. Thanks to all for your help!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With polyurethane it's always best to sand it between coats. You don't have to do a heavy thorough sanding, just do enough just to scuff the finish a little. Polyurethane depends on a mechanical bond from one coat to the next and the fine scratches from sanding gives the finish something to get a grip on. With finishes such as lacquer and shellac the finish literally melts into the previous coat but poly just sticks to the surface.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

OK, will do. I see now what you were talking about when you told me that I was sanding into a finish that was still not ready to be sanded and creating streaks that I then trapped with another layer of poly. Also my sanding block is warped I now have realized. I will get a new one. Is it ok to do the 320 grit sanding with your hand using really light pressure or is that a no no?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

For what you are doing holding the sandpaper in your hand would be better. Another product that might be helpful to you is Glit sanding pads. It's a piece of 3"x4" foam with sandpaper laminated to one side. I get them at Sherwin Williams. They don't come in 320 grit but I keep some that are worn a lot for finer sanding. The extra fine is 220 grit. If you didn't get too aggressive in the early stages of your finish 220 grit would be alright. You would just have to be more careful of sand through.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Well now that the 3rd coat of poly has dried I seem to have the foggy streaks again. The areas that are fogged clarify with downward pressure. Adhesion problem in those areas? This last coat of poly was put on after the 2nd coat had dried 17 hours. I sanded lightly with 320 grit before applying this 3rd coat. It has now dried 16 hours at 70 degrees. No humidity to speak of here. I guess I can try sanding with 320 a bit more aggressively now and remove the 3rd coat I just put on and start again. The good thing is I am still working with only the one leaf of the table so even if I have to strip it it is no big deal. I am definitely starting to think seriously about brush on shellac or brush on lacquer. Any thoughts on which is better? This liquid plastic does not seem to like me.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You seem to be having an great deal more problems than you should be. I think before you change chanels and go with another finish we need to determine what is causing the foggy spots. What ever is going on could happen with another finish so shellac or lacquer may not help you. If the finish is lifting that soon there is wax on the wood that you are finishing over. Can you walk us through what was done on the last refinish and be specific what products and techniques you used?


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

like Steve said there should be no issues.,IF you don't let it cure , yes its dry to touch but not right thro.So when you sand you are creating marks or scuffs. Then your next coat goes over but will not cover scuffs.Have to narrow things down what your using to put it on with change that, buy anew can ? brush a coat on and see.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

really has me wondering my self , very curious


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

*foggy streaks back*

I did strip the table top all the way back down to bare wood. In this first pic I am pointing to one of the foggy streaks. In the second pic I have applied downward pressure on one of the foggy streaks and you see it disappeared where I slid my finger for an inch or two. This table probably hasn't been waxed in 20 or 30 years. I did sand very lightly with the 320 using my hand, perhaps not enough and the foggy areas are areas of poor adhesion? Perplexing but glad I only am working on 1 leaf. I must get this solved or worse case buy some paste wax and wax it like the old old days.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm going to take a wild guess out there what is going on. I've only seen that happen once. I had an employee that stripped a piece of furniture for me to finish. When the finish started making a spot like that I started asking questions what was done and found out the guy that stripped the furniture barely wiped the residue of the remover off with a rag and mineral spirits. Instead of listening to me he read the instructions on the can. What happened is they put wax in paint stripper so it doesn't evaporate so fast. It's not enough to feel it and sanding just rubs it into the wood. Then when I started applying a finish the wax prevented the finish from bonding to the wood and in my case the finish was lacquer. The problem would have been much worse with polyurethane and would take less wax to ruin the finish. I hate to tell you but if this is what happened the only solution is to strip the finish off again and thoroughly wash the residue of the remover off with lacquer thinner. Sometimes you have to wash the furniture off with a rag with lacquer thinner and then get a clean rag and do it again a couple times before you get the wood clean.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I removed the finish initially with the plastic scraper, then with 0000 steel wool. Then I scrubbed the surface clean with lacquer thinner flipping the cloth several times to clean sections. I just don't get it, this should not be this hard but it is a nightmare. I am truly frustrated with it and it's probably good that I am out of town a few days so I can regain my patience with it. I have just been round and round in circles with this. I don't have anything to lose, I am going to go down and sand it with 220 and then apply another layer.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I feel your pain. I've been there for different reasons and I wish I could be of more help. I think I would have to be there and see it first hand to really be of any real help. Polyurethane inherently has adhesion problems anyway and maybe the wiping process is adding to the problem. Maybe you should consider getting the equipment to spray a finish and use lacquer. It doesn't have to be the most expensive equipment. A compressor that would provide around 7 cfm of air would be enough to spray a project the size of that table. Then a $20.00 Harbor Freight sprayer would be good enough to spray wood finishes. I use the #97855.

What was the condition of the finish when you first started this project? Was it pealing off?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Heres my 2 cents:

After looking at all the pictures and progress, I strongly feel that the streaks you see are on the wood itself OR happened the first time you sanded the poly and you will have to strip the finish back off. Sometimes you cant see things like that until you get a build on it.

If you do strip it again, and before you apply the poly, wipe the entire top down with mineral spirits and look for any imperfections. I would then apply 2 to 3 coats of poly to get a slight build and then sand with 320 and proceed with more coats until your satisfied with the look.

By the last picture, it doesnt look like theres alot of build on the top......


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

The compressor that I have has 2.6 [email protected] it's a 6 gallon. The finish was peeling off and like I said subjected to who knows what. I used my palm to apply pressure to the surface all over the leaf and make all the foggy spots go away. They have not come back yet. I think I will just leave it alone for a few more days and see what happens. I would guess they would reappear at some point. Anyway at this point I have no faith in wipe on poly being the solution for this table. I think brushing either shellac or a clear lacquer is my next choice. Which would be better? Is it possible that the shellac would seal whatever is there and help? If so then maybe a clear shellac brushed on with a very soft brush is my best bet.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

What I don't understand Randy is why they would disappear when I apply pressure. It just seems more likely they are created by areas where the poly did not adhere well. But who knows.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

There is also a possibility that sanding with 0000 steel wool might be the problem. If your too aggressive in certain areas you will almost be "buffing" the surface in those areas so when you start building a finish you can see it. Its extremely hard to sand consistent over a large area with steel wool.

Adhesion problems would either be contamination, bad sanding, or bad material. Either way if will need to be stripped. I don't see a simple fix and no way around it.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

sand aggressive with 320 try and brush a good coat on and see nothing to lose . see if you have streaks or ? change poly ? new can, change wiping cloth?


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

try sanding and putting a dewaxed shellac on to seal contaminents


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What would happen with a compressor 2.6 [email protected] is it would run out of air in the middle of spraying the table. Working with lacquer you can't start and stop. Once you start spraying you can't stop until you reach the end of the area you are spraying. If you would stop for even one second there would be a streak in the finish where you stopped and then started again. 

The only explanation I have for the spot disappearing when you put pressure on it is like a piece of cellophane tape that is loose and you press it down again and becomes clear. The finish has enough vapors in it to still be sticky enough underneath to temporarily stick back down. Eventually when the finish hardens the pressure wouldn't do it. I believe the finish is coming off. Turning the clock back you had a table the finish was flaked off in a lot of places and raw wood was exposed. Perhaps someone waxed the table with something like Johnson Paste Wax trying to fix the dead dry raw wood spots. Then after no telling how many times it was waxed you got the table and scraped the rest of the finish off, steel wooled it, cleaned it with lacquer thinner and then applied the new finish. This wouldn't be enough to remove the wax from the table. Wax is very difficult to get rid of on raw wood enough for a film finish. It might take a thorough cleaning with a solvent based paint and varnish remover just to get rid of the excess and perhaps still not be enough for polyurethane directly on the wood. It would have helped if the table was sealed with Zinsser Sealcoat before going to polyurethane. Sealcoat will adhere to wood with a trace of wax on it. Still that is just speculation there is wax imbedded in the wood but the results seem to fit.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I would still go with bad sanding. If the material was bad it would be all over and not in streaks. If it was contamination, it would be all the way up through the finish and laying on top of the finish.

All the streaks are with the grain which also leads me to believe that sanding is the culprit. 

Alot of people apply a wax in a circular motion and sometimes wipe off in a circular motion.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Well I am going to hope that maybe I was too light on the sanding and that is why I had adhesion issues. I sanded it more aggressively this time with 320 and then used a new rag to wipe on another coat of gloss poly. I will see what it is doing when I get back sunday. I guess worse case I can just wax the table with paste wax and not topcoat it. I probably will try shellac or lacquer first though. As long as I stay with just this one leaf I can hopefully find a method that will work for this table.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If those streaks are coming from *underneath* the coating, putting more on will not hide it. You will have to get down to the problem area to fix it.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

at this point I would sand down with 320 put a barrier to conceal contaminates if there is any with dewaxed shellac and go from there, with top coat


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I am going to try a brush on shellac on the other leaf today. If that works I will strip the other leaf, stain it again, and then do the whole table in shellac which it probably had originally. I will pay attention to the sanding of that piece Randy and see whether I can smooth it out more before I stain it. I may have created myself a lot of issues when I sanded off the original finish rather than chemically stripping it. All in all I just do not understand how wipe on poly can be very useful. It seems that the amount of build is so small per coat and then the required sanding to provide mechanical bite to the next coat just offset themselves and you are going nowhere. At some point I will have to get a spray setup. Will let y'all know about how the shellac goes. Thanks again to all!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You are right the wipe on polyurethane is a pain because it is so thin however if you used the brush grade you would have brush marks to contend with. You would have had to build a little thicker finish than otherwise and sand and rub the brush marks out. A table top just shows everything and most people would rather wipe more thin coats than have to work out brush marks. I don't think you would ever regret getting spray equipment. It makes finishing a whole lot easier.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I definitely will put it on my wish list. I probably underestimated just how hard it would be to get this dining room set looking good. Oh well off to home depot to buy more stuff, some shellac and a soft brush. This next leaf will at least tell me whether I can go that route. If so I can build up a bunch of coat and then sand. What grit would be best? Start with 220 and go to 400?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Be sure it is a de-waxed shellac such as Zinsser Sealcoat. Standard shellac is incompatible with polyurethane. 

When brushing shellac put it on wet and keep moving with it. If you miss a spot ignor it until it dries and then touch it up. The stuff sets up fast and if you go back you will end up with drag marks in the finish. Keep in mind shellac is available aready dried and in flakes and all you have to do is mix it with alcohol which is already in can shellac. Putting a second coat won't go over the top of another coat it will melt together.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Phillip Jones said:


> I definitely will put it on my wish list. I probably underestimated just how hard it would be to get this dining room set looking good. Oh well off to home depot to buy more stuff, some shellac and a soft brush. This next leaf will at least tell me whether I can go that route. If so I can build up a bunch of coat and then sand. What grit would be best? Start with 220 and go to 400?


I really believe that you are gonna have to strip that finish off and re-sand the wood before going any further as I dont think applying any finish is gonna now hide those streaks.

When you go to apply the finish, apply a coat of shellac (dewaxed) as steve said and scuff sand with 320. Then I would brush on 2 to 3 thin coats of poly and sand with 320 grit on a sanding block. After that, scuff each coat with 240 grit on a sanding block. Repeat until you get the look you want.

Im not even sure if you need the shellac if the wood is stripped and sanded properly, but its better to be safe than sorry.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

once you put shellac on , you can go ahead with wipe on or your choice of finish, be sure to wait to it drys throughly


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I have now put 3 coats of shellac on. I don't see the streaks at all on this leaf but it is a different leaf. Brushing the shellac is obviously very difficult. Can I apply brushing lacquer over this shellac after it has dried? I am assuming so but want to make sure. Does the brushing lacquer brush more easily than the shellac? If so then maybe my best bet is the shellac for a maybe 3 coats and then go with the lacquer till I like the look?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Is it dewaxed shellac?


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

It is regular shellac, not dewaxed. Is that a problem?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Shellac would only be a problem if you go back to polyurethane. Brushing lacquer if you choose to use it will adhere to shellac. Still the brushing lacquer won't be any easier to apply than the shellac. You also have the option of completely finishing the table with the shellac. I have a antique table that is probably close to 100 years old that is finished with shellac.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Phillip Jones said:


> It is regular shellac, not dewaxed. Is that a problem?


No, its not a problem, I just wanted to see what you used. 

Yes, you can apply lacquer over the shellac. Scuff sand with 320 grit before doing so. Lacquer is hard to brush. 

Why not go with Deft lacquer? You can it at the box stores and comes in a spray can. It sprays extremely well for a rattle can. It stays wet long enough to spray large areas. I just hate brushing anything, and especially a table top.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> You also have the option of completely finishing the table with the shellac. I have a antique table that is probably close to 100 years old that is finished with shellac.


Yes, then he can also French polish it. :thumbsup:


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Well this 3rd coat taught me not to get too heavy handed. I will just sand it out though. Yes Randy I agree brushing a table top just does not cut it. I was thinking about the rattle can shellac, perhaps brushing on some initial coats and sanding and then trying to finish with rattle can. I will look for the deft lacquer, maybe try that as the final coats. All in all I can see that spray equipment is in my future. This basically is like trying to brush a car, it isn't gonna look good no how no way. However having just returned from another antique buying trip up north, that is going to have to wait a little while. This pair of chairs I brought back are very much like the work of R J Horner. They were a real find.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

well dewaxed would be better!


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

My dad did some really nice work with tung oil. Can I use a wipe on tung oil over the shellac? that might look good. I know it takes a long time to dry but no big deal. BTW, how do you dewax shellac? Is this something I need to do


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm not sure how the tung oil would work over shellac. Tung oil will pull and shrink as it dries. Most people apply tung oil then shellac over the tung oil. Even then the tung oil has to gas off or it will Crack the finish if the shellac is applied to soon.

Dewaxed shellac can be applied over virtually anything and block out contamination if there is any in the wood finishing process. 

You buy Dewaxed shellac as you would regular shellac.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tung oil should not be put over shellac or even sealcoat for that matter. It just wouldn't adhere very well. If you want to use tung oil it should be put on bare or stained wood. 

You can make a glass like finish with shellac or lacquer brushing it. People were finishing with these materials back in the 18th century before anyone ever thought about spraying it. It's just not easy. You just have to use a very good brush and constantly sand the brush marks out after every coat. It just makes for a lot of labor and why most of us spray everything.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I have the leaf sanded smooth after 3 coats of shellac. It seems to be good in that it has sealed the wood and filled the pores. Is there ANY wipe on finish that I can now use? I can't imagine wiping the shellac would work as fast as it dries. I'm guessing the lacquer would be the same. Some sort of wiping varnish?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Phillip Jones said:


> I have the leaf sanded smooth after 3 coats of shellac. It seems to be good in that it has sealed the wood and filled the pores. Is there ANY wipe on finish that I can now use? I can't imagine wiping the shellac would work as fast as it dries. I'm guessing the lacquer would be the same. Some sort of wiping varnish?


Yes lacquer would be as difficult to apply as shellac and personally with three coats of shellac on I would continue with shellac. 

If you can find some old fashion varnish you can add some paint thinner and Penetrol and make it a wipe on varnish. You have to make sure it's not polyurethane varnish as it won't adhere to shellac. If you had used zinsser sealcoat which is a dewaxed shellac you could put a wipe on polyurethane over it. Sealcoat is shellac that has had further refinement and filtered the natural wax content out of the finish.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Steve I do have one pint of old fashioned oil base gloss varnish stain in walnut. Obviously it is made to stain and varnish in one step. I don't see why I couldn't use it and mix it with paint thinner and penetrol. Obviously it will take the color darker. Or I could try to now wipe on a coat of shellac instead. Any thoughts on this choice?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would be reluctant to use the varnish stain wiping it. With multiple coats it might tend to get blotchy do to applying it more in some spots than others. Going back to shellac is always an option. What you would need to do is build enough thickness with it you could wet sand out the brush marks. Then you could use a french polish to bring the sheen back. A french polish is the last step in working shellac. It is a thinned down shellac wiped on with a pad using a oil such as walnut or olive oil as a lubricant.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I would be reluctant to use the varnish stain wiping it. With multiple coats it might tend to get blotchy do to applying it more in some spots than others. Going back to shellac is always an option. What you would need to do is build enough thickness with it you could wet sand out the brush marks. Then you could use a french polish to bring the sheen back. A french polish is the last step in working shellac. It is a thinned down shellac wiped on with a pad using a oil such as walnut or olive oil as a lubricant.


Yes, post #91 !!! :yes:


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I went to the old fashioned hardware store and finally found the Zinsser sealcoat, home depot did not have it which is why I bought the regular shellac. He also had a quart of old fashioned varnish. He really wanted me to use the Formby's tung oil which he said was a modified varnish and would work over shellac. I remember reading some about that in Flexners book but I decided to go with the regular varnish. He also said I would do better applying the shellac and the varnish using a foam brush. I am going to try brushing this first coat of varnish right out of the can using the foam brush and see what I get. I can always sand out any imperfections.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

For the first time I have something I am happy to look at!!! The leaf looks great with the 1st coat of varnish on. I can see doing several coats, sanding after each, and then a final coat of wipe on mixing it with paint thinner and penetrol. What ratio? I put the first coat of shellac on the rest of the table and will then do a 2nd and 3rd coat, sanding after the 2nd and 3rd coats. I am optimistic at this point. You have all been so patient and helpful, I am truly appreciative!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't care for putting a tung oil finish over anything but raw wood. 

I know plain varnish will adhere to shellac because in the old days people used to use a lot of solid pine paneling in their houses. The problem with finishing pine is the knots tend to leak sap. The painters would go over the paneling and coat the knots with shellac to seal in the sap before finishing the walls with varnish. 

As far as the foam brush goes, you could try it but most times I use a foam brush for a finish bits of the foam come off and get into the finish. I prefer to brush clear finishes with a very soft paint brush such as a badger or china bristle brush.


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## ricko (Feb 17, 2013)

some foam brushes are cheaper than others, if you keep a wet edge and don't over work it few strokes of the brush as possible should level out .


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

It looks really good. I am going to catch the rest of the table up to the same point in the process and then sand and brush out a second coat of varnish, then sand and do a wipe on coat using the paint thinner and penetrol like Steve suggested. I think it will look quite good. Will keep you posted as I progress. Hoping to put an end to the tabletop by the end of the weekend anyway. Will post pics for sure. Should the varnish and thinner be mixed at 10 to 1 or what ratio?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I would mix equal parts penetrol and mineral spirits and add it 1 part thinner to 3 parts varnish. Different brands of varnish vary in viscosity so you might have to use more or less thinner than my suggestion however that should give you a starting point. If it doesn't work well for you, you can quickly wipe it off with a dry cloth and modify the formula.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I now have 4 coats of shellac and 2 coats of gloss varnish. It looks really nice. I will let it dry overnight and then tomorrow I will sand one of the leaves and try the wipe on varnish that I mixed up per Steve's directions. Will keep you posted and post a pic.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Sanded one of the leaves and tried wiping on a coat of the wipe on mixture. It streaked really badly. It pretty much looks like my earlier attempts at wiping on the poly. I must be doing something wrong. I used a brand new microfiber applicator. How saturated should it be? Perhaps I am working with something too dry? Anyway I can sand it again tomorrow and try again or just brush out another coat and call it a day. I have a zillion projects to get to.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I believe I would quit with the wipe on poly. Either there is something wrong with the product or the method you are applying it. I believe I would get a brush grade poly and a good soft brush and brush the finish on.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

This is not the wipe on poly, it is the wipe on varnish mixed per your formula in the above post. However it looks just like the result I was getting from wipe on poly. The good thing is the streaks I have just created can be sanded out and then brush another coat of varnish on and be done. I obviously am doing something wrong in my wipe on technique, I am guessing not having enough saturation to the applicator.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

Yes it was the applicator I was using all along that created this nightmare project. I just got my copy of Flexner's book in the mail and I noticed he recommends brushing the wipe on. Using the thinned down formula of varnish and brushing it on works beautifully. Never again will I try to wipe anything on other than a stain or oil. Hopefully get some srpray equipment soon. Thanks for all the help and for your considerable time and patience!!!


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Well at first I thought it was sanding technique and it ended up being application technique. Lol. I thought it was too straight of lines to be a bad product or contamination problems.

I hope the brushing technique works best for you. I know it will be better than trying to wipe on a finish.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I think that had I saturated the microfiber pad first in a dish, rung it out and then used it I would have had better results. I also think that thinning down the wipe on poly would have helped me as well. I am really liking this old style varnish. I am going to let this cure for a month and then perhaps rub it with 0000 steel wool to give it a satin sheen. The high gloss just shows every imperfection plus the rest of the dining room set has a satin sheen.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Varnish is a lot friendlier to work with. It doesn't have the plastic resins that polyurethane has.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Phillip Jones said:


> I think that had I saturated the microfiber pad first in a dish, rung it out and then used it I would have had better results. I also think that thinning down the wipe on poly would have helped me as well. I am really liking this old style varnish. I am going to let this cure for a month and then perhaps rub it with 0000 steel wool to give it a satin sheen. The high gloss just shows every imperfection plus the rest of the dining room set has a satin sheen.


Well if you like brush on varnish, you would be in love with a spray on lacquer! :smile:


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

I am going to try lacquer, tung oil, and maybe Danish oil on some upcoming pieces so I can get a feel for how they work. There is a nice children's play house behind my house that has electricity. It will make a great place to do refinishing and out there I could spray things. I am going to get some spray equipment eventually.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Lacquer would make a whole lot less work for a film finish. I don't think you would notice very much difference between tung oil and Danish oil. Tung oil would be more water resistant however it is very slow drying. It may take several days to a week between coats. The best way to tell when it is dry enough for another coat is to take a clean cloth and briskly rub the finish and see if any tung oil smell rubbed off on the rag. When there is no smell it is dry enough for another coat. Danish oil is either a polymerized linseed oil or tung oil mixed with varnish. 

You know the TV commercial "Wow I could have had a V8" You'll be doing about the same thing when you get spray equipment. You'll wonder why you refinished that table without it.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> "Wow I could have had a V8"


Or this :wallbash:

HAHA.


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## Phillip Jones (Dec 24, 2014)

LOL, that is exactly what I was doing. But I did learn a lot so that the next projects go smoother. I know Steve is right, I will wonder why I ever did any of this without spray equipment. I am too much of a perfectionist to live with mediocre results.


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