# Drawer boxes corners... rabbets? dbl rabbets? other?



## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Currently in the final leg of custom built-ins for the kids closets, and had some questions around the drawer boxes. Looked around and couldn't find exact answers, hopefully the fine folks on this board can provide sage advice.

So, my drawers will be inset with false fronts, using 1/2" poplar for the sides, 1/4" birch ply for the bottom, 3/4" poplar for the fronts. My question is around how to do the corners.

I had originally planned to use pocket screws since they'll be largely hidden, and bought a small rig for the job. However, I've been pretty comfortable with rabbets and dados previously, and am now wondering if I should just use a glued joint with brads. Here are the questions:

1) Are glued rabbets + brads a lasting joint for drawers that won't hold a ton of weight (largely clothes, maybe knick knack storage)?

2) What about double rabbets? Is the extra surface area worth the small amount of additional effort?

3) Would you use pocket screws over either of the above? Something else? 

Much as I'd like to try, I don't have the energy, skill, time, material to burn, or tools for more advanced joinery (m+t, etc.), but I'm willing to pursue any joint my table saw can generate!

Thanks in advance for the help, really appreciate it.

Best,
Rick


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*use a drawer lock joint*

on the router table:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjP5xqMZYLA

on the table saw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V8MS0RDxCw


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Lock joint, rabbits, double rabbits, etc. All are fine for what you want to do.

Brads are not necessary.

George


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Rick,

I just went through this process myself, ended up going with the lock joint for corners on my first set of 6 drawers. From what I was reading (here and there), well done glue joints hold up much better over time than the pocket screws. I made my drawer boxes out of 1/2 birch ply with 1/4 bottoms.


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses everybody, much appreciated. While I can find information on lots of joints, it's hard to find good insight on relative strength. I actually considered a locking rabbet, just didn't list it. Definitely seems like a solid option. 

The brads were my attempt to get around having to clamp everyone of these boxes. So I'll ask the obvious question; with any of these glued joints, can I get around having to clamp the boxes while they set? I have limited clamps and table space, so a quick self-holding option is very helpful. 

And if I do use brads (with or without clamps), thinking about hold forces it seemed like the best spot for them actually be in from the sides (pulling the back pieces into/against the sides). However, that obviously defeats an advantage of a hidden joint... I could always fill them, but with 10 drawers that thought makes me want to cry.

Thanks again for the help!

-Rick


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

I hear that - fighting the issue of running low on clamps and surfaces to do the clamping is a struggle. I was only able to do two at a time myself.

If I were you, I'd say try this approach. Glue the joints, use clamps to get them all nice and tight, then shoot a brad or two into each joint, then throw a ratcheting cargo strap around it and get it cinched down nice and snug. Then release the clamps, set the drawer aside to dry, and do the next one. You can snag a set of 4 or 6 ratcheting cargo straps at Harbor Freight for $12 or so if memory serves. 

This would let you get at least 4 or 6 drawers all glued up and drying at once. Depending on how confidant you are in your speed to glue up a drawer, you could use Tightbond II instead of III for a fast set (30 minute if I recall right). That way you could pretty much get them all done in one session.


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## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

I've used glued joints as in the picture below for false front drawers; never had a problem. The joints are easy to do on a table saw.

I'd agree that clamping is a good idea, even if only long enough to shoot some brads in, as MattS suggested. I'd definitely use glue; don't depend on just brads or screws.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Stevedore said:


> I've used glued joints as in the picture below for false front drawers; never had a problem. The joints are easy to do on a table saw.
> 
> I'd agree that clamping is a good idea, even if only long enough to shoot some brads in, as MattS suggested. I'd definitely use glue; don't depend on just brads or screws.


That's how I did mine too - with a dado bit in my table saw. Used a sled for the short ends and they came out perfect.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Stevedore said:


> I've used glued joints as in the picture below for false front drawers; never had a problem. The joints are easy to do on a table saw.
> 
> +1
> I do mine like this when I'm not using a dovetail jig.
> Mike Hawkins


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## Nick Sandmann (Oct 24, 2014)

A glued rabbet would probably be fine. Personally I'm not a fan of brads or pocket screws(this is a personal aesthetic preference, structurally they are fine), but if I were worried about adding some extra strength I'd do the rabbet, drill a hole instead of using a brad, and glue in a short 1/8" dowel. I prefer the look and would use dark dowels that would contrast the poplar.

The brads would accomplish the same thing and be quicker too though.


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## Nick Sandmann (Oct 24, 2014)

or, have you considered doing 1 long sliding dovetail? This is a pretty simple joint that would just require a dovetail bit for your router.


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## PhilBa (Jun 30, 2014)

Stevedore said:


> I've used glued joints as in the picture below for false front drawers; never had a problem. The joints are easy to do on a table saw.
> 
> I'd agree that clamping is a good idea, even if only long enough to shoot some brads in, as MattS suggested. I'd definitely use glue; don't depend on just brads or screws.


I think it's called a lock rabbet and it's my go to joint for drawers. Super easy to do on a router table.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I guess I am just a simpleton when it comes to plain drawers. I think a lot of folks overthink drawer construction. But then again, the OP is talking about Kids so I bet there will be rough housing going on.

What kind of drawer slides are you using? Soft close drawer slides will take a lot of the wear and tear out of the drawer operation from day to day.

Here are pics of my shop drawers. They are simple rabbet joints glued together and a few 18 ga brad nails. From the pictures you can see they are full of clamps and they get operated multiple times almost every day. They are mounted on ball bearing drawer slides (not soft close). The top two drawers have the simple drawer tracks that I hate, but that is all I had when I built them.

A quick note. My first workbench was built in 1988. I made the drawers from 3/4 plywood and white pine. The joints were butt joints with Elmers glue and some 3 penny finishing nails. When I tore the bench down a few years ago, I had to beat the drawers apart with a 4lb shop hammer. The glue didn't give. It tore the wood apart at the joint! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks guys... funny, the clamp, brad, release model was the same exact solution I was kicking around. 

My concern with the brad is that the force on those joints will be lateral (perpendicular to the side), and that a brad shot in from the back or front (so it's hidden) will be "across" the joint. While I'm a novice, my experience is that I want to shoot so that the brad pulls the two pieces together, which would seem to mean shooting into the back piece from the side?

Anyway, it sounds like a glued dado rabbet + brad will be plenty strong, so I'll do it regardless. I always like a chance to use the nailer. I can just spend a week gluing the drawers, my kids can put there clothes on the floor in the meantime. 

Interesting side note, yaknow what's really fun? When you go to cut off the 1/2" you need to remove from the backs/fronts for the inset, feel somethings wrong, but only realize you futzed the pieces and trimmed the SIDES after you've already done it. Oh well, no one will ever notice all the middle drawers are 1/2" short. 

To the comment about a Dado blade, real fancy man there... I couldn't imagine abandoning my trusty 60T dewalt finishing blade... There's nothing quite as gratifying as freehanding your joints!

Thanks again for all the help.

-Rick


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

MT Stringer said:


> I guess I am just a simpleton when it comes to plain drawers. I think a lot of folks overthink drawer construction. But then again, the OP is talking about Kids so I bet there will be rough housing going on.
> 
> What kind of drawer slides are you using? Soft close drawer slides will take a lot of the wear and tear out of the drawer operation from day to day.
> 
> ...


Ha, too funny on the glue... that Titebond is strong stuff, I grew up with a maniacal wood glue user (my dad always had something clamped on our table), so I have a deep appreciation for the power of wood repair.

Funny you ask about the slides, I've been hemming and hawwing about this for months (my project was delayed when I fell 30ft out of a tree and sheared my pelvis in half in April... fun times). I want soft close both for wear and tear and because I think it'll make it more likely my damn kids will close them, but I've been struggling to justify the price. Tonight I purchased one of the following as a test case:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PHL3RGQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

It's only a little more or the same as a good standard slide, and it seems to get better reviews than some of the cheaper or similar chinese slides. I just can't justify Blum or KV... I need 10 sets of these things, and even these cheap ones will run me $144, Blums would be double.

Any suggestions on a good, cheap-ish soft close slide? The drawers are all around 15.5" (two closets, slightly different dimensions), so I'm going with 14"s that I'll front align (I can live without getting full clearance when pulled out).

If anyone has any thoughts on slides or something else I'm missing please let me know, there's nothing I love more than experienced insight!

Thanks,
Rick


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*spend the money on slides*

Get the best slides you can, within reason. All the time and effort you have put into the other parts of the cabinet is small compered to the "additional" cost of really good slides. They have to last the lifetime of the cabinet and are the only moving parts, so spend the extra money. 

I can't recommend a brand, sorry. Amazon does have reviews in addition to advice here. :smile:

cabinetparts.com offers coupons:
https://www.coupons.com/coupon-codes/cabinet-parts/

http://www.cabinetmakerssupply.com/drawer_slides_specialty_slides_cabinet_56_ct.htm

http://procabinetsupply.com/pages/drawer-slides


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

*Drawers*

Already many good post on this topic, but the rabbet joint is my favorite for drawer construction. I have two dovetail jigs I might use for furniture, but not for general cabinetry. Kitchen drawers, shop drawers, utility drawers are all made with rabbeted sides and have never failed. 
Good glue and a few 1 1/4" finish nails will give years of trouble-free use. 
The metal drawer slides can make a huge difference and take the stresses off the drawer.


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

*Soft Close Drawer Slides*

I've used the Liberty Soft Close slides several times. They are "good" quality. Not a Blum, but they pretty much do what you expect them to do. 

Surprisingly, the "generic" Ebay one's are on par with quality, but ship in non-retail packaging and don't include screws and instructions. IMO, a better value, but they're currently sold in sets of 10 pairs for $69. Here's a link. Liberty's steel is a bit higher gauge, so they may take a more abuse, but their both rated at 100lb / pair.

In general, soft close hinges seem to have less tolerance, so you'll have to be careful with your drawer fitting.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I have been using these slides from CSH. 
http://www.cshardware.com/kitchen-a...earing.html?close=Soft+Close&manufacturer=CSH

I did have one that suffered a mechanical breakage out of the thirty or so drawers I have installed.

Hope this helps.
Mike


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

I recently bought 8 pairs of these: http://www.cshardware.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=G-Slide+4270

They really seem like high quality, and strong. I bought the 22 inch size.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

I got the soft close G-SLIDE series from CSH as well - big fan of those.


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks for the ongoing feedback guys, really appreciate the great advice/insight. You can't beat experience, thank god for the internet.

Glad to hear the positive view of the Liberty slides, NickDIY, that's about what I expected... or rather hoped. It's kind of like playing poker when you order Amazon gear. You hedge your bets, but its all a game of calculated risks. 

Two votes for the CSH slides... I have to say, those slides look pretty nice, I especially like the fact that they look like they have more metal around the mechanism than the Liberty slides. Would be great to see the gauge of the metal in comparison, hard to say from a photo. Do they feel solid? What's the performance like over time... still smooth? While I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face, ~$10 a pair is a damn nice price for soft close.

**quick update, are those KV slides? Same model number... can't tell if they're trying to "fake it" with the same model number or it's actually a KV slide. KV soft close slides for $10.62 per 10 pack seems pretty great**

I have some time tomorrow late, so I'll probably start routing out the dadoes and try and finish all my cuts. Freehanding dadoes on both ends of 20 boards with a 1/8" blade, truly a fun evening. 

Best,
Rick


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

rtilghman said:


> Thanks for the ongoing feedback guys, really appreciate the great advice/insight. You can't beat experience, thank god for the internet.
> 
> Glad to hear the positive view of the Liberty slides, NickDIY, that's about what I expected... or rather hoped. It's kind of like playing poker when you order Amazon gear. You hedge your bets, but its all a game of calculated risks.
> 
> ...


I have only installed two sets of the CSH slides so far (the soft close 100lb ones) - they are holding up very well, still open/close smoothly. I overbought for my cabinets so I used them to build a tool cabinet, and threw them on the ends of two 38 inch wide 24 inch deep drawers. I then filled them with power tools, mechanical tools (pipe wrenches, socket sets) and generally just overloaded them. Smooth as silk.

Nothing like full-extension 100lb rated drawer slides loaded to max capacity I say :thumbsup:


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

In my corner base cabinets, I used *28 inch* long slides from CSH. They are working just fine, as are all of the others in our kitchen and our buffet.

Note that I used the rear bracket for each slide. That made adjustments easy. :thumbsup:


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm a little more of a contemporary/modern guy, but that's some nice cabinet work, and those slides look really beefy. I can't tell if the 28" slides are just enormous (to handle the additional load) or if the little lady in the one picture just makes them look big. 

The comment about wall anchoring them is interesting, can you tell me a little more? Do the slides require wall anchors and did, if so, did they come with them or did you buy them separately? I'd like to wall anchor, but some of my walls are painfully untrue... one wall falls away as much as 3/4" near the bottom.  maybe I can beef them up to give me what I need in those spots.

Here's an important question for someone with experience installing the slides. My depths from the front of the face are 16 5/8" on one cabinet, 16 1/2 to 16 7/8 on the second. That means I have a minimum of 15.75" depth to the back of the false front. Should I buy a 400mm slide (15.748) or a 350mm slide (13.7795)? The CSH website says the 350mm slide is "14in", which is weird to me... is there "extra" material not counted in the Gslide mm measurement?

Basically if I go with the 400mm it "should" fit and I can wall anchor it, but there's no room for error. If I go with 350mm I've got lots more room, but I'll have less extension on the slide and I won't be able to wall mount it.

Thanks in advance for the additional help/insight, this thread has helped tremendously.

Thanks,
Rick


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

rtilghman said:


> I'm a little more of a contemporary/modern guy, but that's some nice cabinet work, and those slides look really beefy. I can't tell if the 28" slides are just enormous (to handle the additional load) or if the little lady in the one picture just makes them look big.
> 
> The comment about wall anchoring them is interesting, can you tell me a little more? Do the slides require wall anchors and did, if so, did they come with them or did you buy them separately? I'd like to wall anchor, but some of my walls are painfully untrue... one wall falls away as much as 3/4" near the bottom.  maybe I can beef them up to give me what I need in those spots.
> 
> ...


*Looks like you will need the 14 inchers.*

For standard base cabinets, the standard slides are 22 inches long the 28 inchers give an extra 6 inches of travel for the diagonal corner cabinet drawers.

They are well built. We have not had any problems with these slides.

The rear bracket is extra, as are the screws. When you order the slides you get a pair good for one drawer.

22 inch full ext ball brg drawer slide
http://www.cshardware.com/39-1140-22.html

Back socket (sold as pair) Note this bracket needs to anchored into 3/4 inch plywood or whatever you have available to add for support.
http://www.cshardware.com/39-1170.html

Truss screw (for face frame installation)
http://www.cshardware.com/0-tpc08058z17.html

Screw for drawer slide mounting
http://www.cshardware.com/0-fpc08012z.html


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Very cool, thanks for the detailed insight and part links!

One question I have is that you didn't include a link to the face frame bracket. Did you use it? From the install videos I've watched it looks like you have to since the slide kind of pops into the holder... or can you alternatively just screw the slide into the face frame?

My face frames are actually flush with the cabinet (same plane), so I'm a little concerned that the face frame may be problematic... the videos seem to show it has a small bend where it dips in at the back. I'm worried I'll need to shim the front or something.

Also, do you know the clearance on these slides? I'm building my boxes with an assumption of 1/2" for the slides on each side, but from an install video I watched it looked like the guy measured out 5/8" per side...?

Thanks again for all the help, really appreciate it.

Best,
Rick


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

rtilghman said:


> Very cool, thanks for the detailed insight and part links!
> 
> One question I have is that you didn't include a link to the face frame bracket. Did you use it? From the install videos I've watched it looks like you have to since the slide kind of pops into the holder... or can you alternatively just screw the slide into the face frame?
> 
> ...


 
You can likely get away with using the 15" slides, They will screw right to the sides of your cabinet boxes, and 1/2" is what you subtract per side for your boxes. 

Assuming your cab box and drawer boxes are fairly square... 

You don't need any of the extra junk for mounting to the back. :no:


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

rtilghman said:


> Very cool, thanks for the detailed insight and part links!
> 
> One question I have is that you didn't include a link to the face frame bracket. Did you use it? From the install videos I've watched it looks like you have to since the slide kind of pops into the holder... or can you alternatively just screw the slide into the face frame?
> 
> ...



When I do inset drawers I mount the slides directly to blocking that I install on the sides of the cabinet. Make the blocking from some type of hardwood. I usually make it the width of the slide so it's as unobtrusive as possible. 
You'd have to do the math to figure out the thickness of the blocking you'll need, relative to the distance from the edge of the stile to the surface of the cabinet interior (or partition, whatever the case may be). Hope that helps

Also, I prefer to use Accuride full extension ball bearing slides when selecting a side-mounted drawer slide. I have never had a problem with them. The company I work for does commercial casework, and we've actually removed & replaced some of our own 20 year old cabinets when banks/offices decide to remodel. Even after that long in a commercial setting, the slides still function smoothly. 
For concealed under mount slides, I like Hettich.


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Unfortunately blocking isn't an option for me... as I mentioned in an earlier reply, the face is even with the cabinet, and my drawers are built to maximize the available width (only space for the 1" I'll need for the slides).

I actually got the slides today from CSH... ordered the 400mm soft slides after speaking with a guy there who guaranteed me they were exactly 400mm (I have exactly 15.75" for the slides). While they definitely look great and feel solid, UNFORTUNATELY... the slides are actually about 3/32... niiiiice. :thumbdown: Maybe this will help someone else in the future... I'm guessing all their slides are oversized like this, maybe they fail to account for the plastic or something.

Thankfully I only have about two drawers where it's a real problem. The closet falls away about an inch in my sons room (it's crazy, scribing the built-in to fit was excrutiating), and the top two cabinets are +1/16. I can scrape away some of the drywall to give those slides a groove to sit in.

On that note, just finished assembling all the drawers... rabbets/dados didn't come out perfect, but a solid job given I did it all on a ryobi table saw. I can say my next set of drawers will be awesome...  Just some final sanding, poly, more sanding, and then I can start installing!

Thanks again to everybody for all the advice and insight, really great and appreciated.

Best,
Rick


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Sorry, that should have read "3/32 long"... clarifying for posterity. I had a feeling they might run long, annoying to be vindicated.

Best,
Rick


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

rtilghman said:


> Sorry, that should have read "3/32 long"... clarifying for posterity. I had a feeling they might run long, annoying to be vindicated.
> 
> Best,
> Rick


You went with inset drawer fronts or something?

Either way, If all you need to deal with is 3/32 extra - You can either sand / grind that off the back of the hardware or you can chisel a small pocket for the back of the guide into your cabinet back. 

Should not take more than a few minutes no matter what you do.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

rtilghman said:


> Sorry, that should have read "3/32 long"... clarifying for posterity. I had a feeling they might run long, annoying to be vindicated.
> 
> Best,
> Rick





> *Looks like you will need the 14 inchers.*




Didn't listen, huh? :yes:


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## rtilghman (Jan 23, 2015)

Haha, no, I didn't. I wanted longer slides so I hanged my hopes on the second reply that seemed to be more optimistic about the 400mm! 

Next time you need to include the actual data to so I know you're talking hard numbers... Hey, at least I only have to shave down the wall four times. )

Best,
Rick


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## Belg (Oct 2, 2011)

MT Stringer said:


> *
> Screw for drawer slide mounting
> http://www.cshardware.com/0-fpc08012z.html*


*
Are these the screws you use for your slides? These hold well in 3/4 ply sides?*


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Belg said:


> Are these the screws you use for your slides? These hold well in 3/4 ply sides?


I think they are also available in 5/8 inch length. Should work OK.


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