# Staining prem Douglas fir



## jaywood

Hi guys, first post here. My name is Jeff and i am 18 years old. I'm going to be making a bed frame for my room. I am on a budget so I'm going to be using inexpensive wood. I shopped around home depot today and found that premium Douglas fir was the basically the cheapest (duh!). The whole frame will be made out of Douglas fir. I am planning on staining the whole thing dark..possibly ebony or maple. 

What are your guys' suggestions on how I should stain the wood? Is there a "better" brand of stain? Should I use any pre-treatments? I will be giving it a clear satin finish as well...thoughts on which brand/type? 

I have searched around but didn't find too many answers pertaining to my questions. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Bonka

*Stain*

DF will blotch. I have used hide glue sizing, one oz. in one quart hot water, to eliminate blotching. I have also used Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner. I seldom use stains. General Finsh or Trans Tint dyes have been my go to's
We have a DF mantle and hide flue sizing was used on it. The color is uniform including the end grain.


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## Dave Paine

+1 with Bonka.

You would not like the look of Doug Fir if you just applied stain. Too much inconsistency, especially on end grain.

Options which come to mind are
a) Seal first, with e.g., Minwax Stain Pre-Conditioner, essentially a very thin urethane, then stain with e.g. a gel stain
b) Use dyes. A few drops of e.g., Transtint dye in Shellac will go on much more even. Also the shellac will seal the wood.

Consider the impact of whatever colour you choose on the room. If you end up not liking a dark colour, you cannot add more stain or dye to lighten it. You have to either put up with the colour, or sand back to bare wood. Not fun.


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## jigs-n-fixtures

Blonde shellac to seal, followed by tinted shellac. 

You can use any alcohol based tint, or even universal tint with shellac. And by adjusting the cut rate by adding a bit more alcohol you can apply thin coats and build up to the depth of color you want. 

After that you can apply varnish to seal it if you wish, but shellac is a pretty good finish on its own.

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## Getting better

I'm thinking paint!!


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## Bonka

*Minwax Conditioner*

With all due respect to those who advocate MW Conditioner. I have never had acceptible results with this product. Order some of Charles Neil's "Blotch Control." It works. Hide glue sizing is just cheaper and works just as well IMHO.


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## jaywood

Thank you everyone for the replies so far!

I am thinking about going with a stain because I think it will look nicer. I do not want the blotchy look...I like consistent stained look. Please excuse my stupidity, but what is hide glue sizing?


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## jigs-n-fixtures

Sizing is coated raw wood with a dilute glue mixture to seal the pores. 

I personally prefer using dewaxed blonde shellac. It is more convenient for me become I use shellac as my primary finish.

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## jaywood

Bonka said:


> DF will blotch. I have used hide glue sizing, one oz. in one quart hot water, to eliminate blotching. I have also used Charles Neil's Pre-Color Conditioner. I seldom use stains. General Finsh or Trans Tint dyes have been my go to's
> We have a DF mantle and hide flue sizing was used on it. The color is uniform including the end grain.


I am headed towards the glue sizing technique. Did you use this on doug fir? How did it turn out? What stain did you go with?


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## cabinetman

jaywood said:


> I am headed towards the glue sizing technique. Did you use this on doug fir? How did it turn out? What stain did you go with?


Take a sample and just try a gel stain first. Follow the directions on the product.









 







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## Bonka

*Hide Glue*

Hide glue sizing is a thinned glue. I put appox. one ounce of dry hide glue in a quart of hot water and stir it around until it disolves. I the paint the project to be dyed/stained with it. After 24 hours I lightly sand it with 150-180 grit and stain or dyei. I have done several pine and fir pieces with it and all have come out without splotching nor end grain problems.
As always DO A TEST PIECW FIRST!
I almost always use dye, either Trans Tint or General Finishes.


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## jaywood

Ok guys, here are my thoughts. Tell me what you think

I am going to use the hide glue sizing method first. Then I will stain using a minwax stain. I have other black furniture in my room so black is what I am after. How would walnut stain look on the doug fir? Then once stained I will apply a satin clear over it all...brush or spray? 

I'm trying to get everything locally (Home depot, Osh) but if I need to buy some things online I can do that as well.


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## jigs-n-fixtures

If you want black it may be easiest to just spray on three or four coats of krylon. 

The grain shows through, and it is quick and easy.

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## cabinetman

What is blotch control. Well, it's called several things besides "blotch control". Some terminology that comes to mind is...

pre-stain conditioning
conditioning
sealing
wash coat
sizing

The process and whatever is used is supposed to make wood take stain or dyes evenly. Wood has some interesting characteristics. There are hard areas, and soft areas. There are light areas and there are dark areas. There are places where the grain decides it isn't happy playing follow the leader. And, then you have knots which can incorporate several of the anomalies.

Conditioners/sealers, are basically sealing the wood. However concentrated the application may be may determine how effective the process will be. Too little, and the problem may have been minimized some. Too much, and the wood will lack sufficient penetration properties. 

But in essence, an application of the magic stuff does the same thing to all of the areas. As an example, it doesn't make the hard areas softer. It's use can be hit or miss. It is beneficial to experiment with samples. In some circumstances it can have it's place. Most of the time, proper preparation makes it unnecessary.









 







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## Masterofnone

jaywood said:


> Ok guys, here are my thoughts. Tell me what you think
> 
> I am going to use the hide glue sizing method first. Then I will stain using a minwax stain. I have other black furniture in my room so black is what I am after. How would walnut stain look on the doug fir? Then once stained I will apply a satin clear over it all...brush or spray?
> 
> I'm trying to get everything locally (Home depot, Osh) but if I need to buy some things online I can do that as well.


+1 on what Bonka said. Do a test run with a piece of scrap DF, from the same batch you get your material from.

Minwax's walnut stain is a deep brown, not black. I've got a picture of a rocking horse in my photo album with Minwax walnut stain on red oak... it's far from black. An ebony stain is what you're looking for. But remember, any sort of pre-stain conditioner, sanding sealer, shellac, etc is going to seal up the wood and it won't take color as easily. As Charles Neil says, you're going to have to "sneak up" on the color you want, which may mean several heavy coats to get "black."

A "satin" black Krylon, like jigs suggested, may not be such a terrible idea.


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## jaywood

I am going for an ebony look. Not completely "black" but fairly close it. 

Thinking of using: Minwax pre-conditioner with minwax ebony. Do I need to use the "gel"? Or will just the regular stain be ok?


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## Masterofnone

Gel stains sit on top of the wood and doesn't soak in all that much, so a prestain conditioner may not be that necessary. Minwax "stain" also tends to not be stain. Sometimes its stain, sometimes it's dye, sometimes its both. That's important because if it is a dye, you can darken the wood by adding more coats. Stains don't. 

Basically the only way to be sure to achieve the look you want is to by some products and try them on scrap.


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## cgarritsen

Ive used Provincinal (sp) and it came out pretty dark. Pick up a couple of the small stains you think u might like and do test runs, and see which you prefer.


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## Rick Mosher

If you are going for a dark color then a pre-conditioner is not a good idea IMHO. The conditioner will restrict the penetration of the dye and it will be difficult to get a clean, dark color. Stain the raw wood first with a reduced dye stain (I like WD Lockwoods water based dye stain) Try to get at least two thirds of the final color you want. If you spray the dye stain on without allowing it to puddle it will be remarkably even and nearly free of any blotching.

The next step will depend on what you like on your sample board (you DID make one of those, right?) Everyone has their idea of what looks good as a finish in one sentence and then say they don't know much about finishing in the next. :blink: 

You can wipe a gel stain right over the dye stain without sealing, you can tint some shellac and spray or brush that over the WB dye stain (spray a coat of clear over the tinted before scuff sanding or you will take off your color.) As CMan says different parts of the wood take stain differently for the end grain you can apply your sizing, sand to a much finer grit (320 or even 400) or wipe with solvent before staining to minimize absorption. Bottom line is do your testing on scrap pieces, take some pictures and get some feedback before wading in to your project and you will be much happier with the results.

A gel stain works much better on blotch prone woods because it is much higher viscosity than a wiping stain. Therefore it tends to penetrate less and give a more even appearance.


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## jaywood

Alright guys, I think I have come to a conclusion.

Because I cheaped out on the wood (doug fir) I am just going to paint it. I already have a satin black that I painted my shelves with that I really like. 

I will post up pics when completed!

Thanks again for all of the help guys.


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## burkhome

Rick Mosher said:


> If you are going for a dark color then a pre-conditioner is not a good idea IMHO. The conditioner will restrict the penetration of the dye and it will be difficult to get a clean, dark color. Stain the raw wood first with a reduced dye stain (I like WD Lockwoods water based dye stain) Try to get at least two thirds of the final color you want. If you spray the dye stain on without allowing it to puddle it will be remarkably even and nearly free of any blotching.
> 
> The next step will depend on what you like on your sample board (you DID make one of those, right?) Everyone has their idea of what looks good as a finish in one sentence and then say they don't know much about finishing in the next. :blink:
> 
> You can wipe a gel stain right over the dye stain without sealing, you can tint some shellac and spray or brush that over the WB dye stain (spray a coat of clear over the tinted before scuff sanding or you will take off your color.) As CMan says different parts of the wood take stain differently for the end grain you can apply your sizing, sand to a much finer grit (320 or even 400) or wipe with solvent before staining to minimize absorption. Bottom line is do your testing on scrap pieces, take some pictures and get some feedback before wading in to your project and you will be much happier with the results.
> 
> A gel stain works much better on blotch prone woods because it is much higher viscosity than a wiping stain. Therefore it tends to penetrate less and give a more even appearance.


 I have unsuccessfully tried to achieve the popular coffee color of furniture on maple. Any ideas?


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