# Crown molding driving me INSANE. Again



## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi everyone. I've struggled over the years with CM. Mostly due to uneven walls. This time I can't get it close. Videos videos videos, not helping. Spring angle, tables........

Situation, 45 degree outside corner. Seems simple. Just use 22.5 degree and cut just like a 90 degree corner. Just cant do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can someone please tell me how to set my compound DOUBLED bevel miter saw? The spring angel is 37 per Home Depot. I must be missing something simple.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Since I only cut an angle like that only every five years or so I just put the crown molding on the miter saw the same as it would fit on the wall and just cut it on a 22.5 degree angle. Of course if you have very large molding that wouldn't work. Then I would just tinker with it with some scrap molding. For a 90 degree angle you would angle the saw at 31.62 degrees and tilt the blade at 33.5 degrees. For 45 degrees I would start with half that and go from there.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Ok. I'll try both those things. Thank you.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

wsommariva said:


> Ok. I'll try both those things. Thank you.


Seems I end up with an angel of


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

I keep ending up with a real wide angel, close to 150


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Common Crown Molding Angles - Sawdust Girl®


Understanding why crown molding is a PITA and how to make it NOT is the first step in becoming a Crown Molding Master! OK, maybe not a master but at least have the confidence to try it and do a pretty bang up job of it. There are three common angles for crown molding and about 100 ... Read...




sawdustgirl.com









Installing Crown Moulding the Easy Way | Ana White







www.ana-white.com





There's two ways to cut crown on a miter saw:
1. Set the molding against the fence at the angle it lays against the wall or a spring angle of 38 /52 or 45 /45 .
2. Lay the molding flat on the saw table and use the bevel angle from the chart and the mark on the saw indicator (1:57 sec in)
This video shows how:





If you are still stumped, make a plan view drawing of the 45 degree corner. Then bisect the angle for your 22.5 miter cuts. Take a 2 X 4 and make those miter cuts. 
Then stand it up on the drawing. Now you have a "wall" and a "ceiling" to test your cuts on. Fasten the mitered 2 X4's together with hot glue or a screw or two.
Use some 12" long scraps of crown to make your test cuts on and fit them against the 2 X 4 with the 22.5 miters which form the 45 degree outside angle.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Out out of curiosity I cut a piece of crown in my shop to a 45 degree outside corner and it fit pretty close. I tilted the blade at 17 degrees and set the angle a little less than 16 degrees and laid the molding flat on a compound miter saw. Not knowing how the molding will actually fit on each wall it's always best to make a mock-up of the angle and try it before cutting the actual trim. .


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I have never tried to cut ceiling mold laying flat, I always bed it into the miter saw upside down. Set the saw at a 45 degree for 90 degree corners. I have ran 1000s of feet of crown this way.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Thank you. I read all your comments. I viewed the video mang times. I made many cuts.

I have confirmed that the wall is a 45. MY CUTS ALL RESULT IN A 135 DEGREE PIECE OF FIREWOOD.

My miter saw has zero when centered. Steve when you made you cut, is your saw setup with zero when centered or 90?

I'm going off to study for the drivers test with a 17 year old. 
.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

wsommariva said:


> Thank you. I read all your comments. I viewed the video mang times. I made many cuts.
> 
> I have confirmed that the wall is a 45. MY CUTS ALL RESULT IN A 135 DEGREE PIECE OF FIREWOOD.
> 
> ...


My saw is like this. You see the 31.62 degree notch.







My saw is like this. You see the 31.62 degree notch on each side. This is where you would set the saw if you were cutting 90 degree angles instead of 45.


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## redeared (Feb 7, 2019)

The number 1 reason I don't do CM is because in our 100+ year old house is that there are no 90 deg corners anywhere, not worth the effort


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

So Steve you used the numbers on the bottom that agree with my saw?

Did you tilt the saw left and set set angle left. And place the bottom of the molding against the fence?

And I have a 37/53 spring angle


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

BigJim said:


> I have never tried to cut ceiling mold laying flat, I always bed it into the miter saw upside down. Set the saw at a 45 degree for 90 degree corners. I have ran 1000s of feet of crown this way.


My (strong) advice is forget all the double bevel rigamorale & do it like BigJim described. ^^ or you WILL drive yourself to insanity.

When you have that 91° or 88° corner it’s a whole lot easier to adjust the miter, too. I’ve watched a number of very skilled trim guys and they turn the moulding upside down.

Determine where the crown sits and clamp a registration stop on the horizontal table. If the moulding is higher than the fence, double stick an auxiliary fence on.

The rest is dealing with uneven ceilings and walls.

Always glue the miters first, then nail & caulk. If you fill gaps the always eventually show.

Check CarpentryTV and Insider Carpentry.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

DrRobert. I am insane at this point. I first did what Big Jim said. Simple. Just like cutting a 90. But I end up with trim that would fit a 135 degree corner! EVERY TIME I must be making a simple error every time. I will try that again


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

Try following his method. Cutting in position rather than on the flat is the only way to cut crown (IMHO)


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Thank you Jar944. Watched the video.

So to review, I have a 45 degree outside corner. I cant cut my 37/53 crown molding to get it to fit. I did a 90 degree outside corners no problem, looks great. After I make my cuts for the 45 corner I get a wide 135 degree set up, not the 45 I need. Off by 90!

I'll look for a video on how to cut a 45 o/s corner. 

Luckily I can end the cm at this corner and get away with it.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

if you were to place a straight edge against one wall (of the intersection), and another straight edge on the second wall, what would the angle be between the 2 straight edges. it may be that your "45 degrees" for the wall is being confused here. a 45 degree intersection means that the 2 walls are coming together at less than 90 degrees. is that what you have? a pic would help. 

if that is the case, you need to cut the cm at 22.5 degrees off of 90, which most miter saws cannot accomplish without a jig to help. i use a 90 degree jig like this...













notice the sacrificial fence board on the back to keep the work piece from slipping forward after the cut.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

also, the 2 flats on the cm which will be 1. against the wall, and 2 agaist the ceiling, if you check are not typically 90 degrees. so you want to "register" the flat against the wall, and slide the cm up to meet the ceiling. so this means that during the cut, you also want/nned to "register" the same flat tight against the fence during the cut. i hope this makes sense to you.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

wsommariva said:


> DrRobert. I am insane at this point. I first did what Big Jim said. Simple. Just like cutting a 90. But I end up with trim that would fit a 135 degree corner! EVERY TIME I must be making a simple error every time. I will try that again


Straight down miter cut @ 45. Helps to use a miter finder as most outside corners are more than 90, inside less than 90.

You'll get it. 

That was the video Jar shows is the one I was thinking about.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Thanks Tim.

I think I figured it out.

With a 45 outside corner maybe I need to set my saw to not 22.5 but to 67.5. Why, I have no clue. But my saw does not have that capability.

So I have abandoned my 45 corner. I ended the cm before the nasty 45 a nd made a nice cap. I'll post a pic.

Thanks everyone. I still have all my fingers.

I still ha e all my fingers


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I hope that you know that the setting on the miter saw is NOT the angle you get when you cut it!
On a miter saw, even a miter gauge, 0 degrees is 90 degrees or square.
This may explain your difficulty and frustration, if you didn't know.
Here's a thread i started a long time back explaining it all:








Angles and setting on the miter saw


Angles and settings on the miter saw I have posted this info a few times here but I'd like some comments on it: The settings on the miter saw are different than the angles cut on a piece held against the back fence...except at 45 degrees where they are the same. The settings on the mitersaw...




www.woodworkingtalk.com


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

How wide is your crown?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am confused why a jig (not trying to be a smart butt or anything), When trimming houses, we never had time to use jigs or anything like that we had to get the trim cut and put up fast or you didn't make any money. My crew and myself could trim a 2000 sq ft house with regular stairs in a day or we lost money. I can assure you we had to do some moving.

We didn't have time, we just bed the ceiling mold trim into the miter saw bed and cut. If the wall was a 45 degree wall outside corner we cut both pieces of trim 22 1/2 degrees and install. If the wall was and inside corner with a 45 degree wall, that was a little more complicated. We cut one piece of the trim at a 45 degree to fit the wall, then we cut the other piece at a 22 1/2 degree and cope really deep back under so the piece would lay over the first piece we installed.

Try this, if you are having problems with a wall that is not a true 45 or 90 or what ever, cut both pieces of trim and glue and shoot them together on the floor or a table, than put the trim in place. If painted you can caulk under the trim. 

Just a tip on trimming a ceiling that has a bow downward or dip in it. Bed the trim in at both ends, mark the wall at the bottom of the mold and pop a line. Keep the mold on that line. You will have to roll the trim to stay on that line if the ceiling dips or is bowed down but the dip or bow can't be seen with the ceiling mold straight.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

BigJim said:


> I am confused why a jig (not trying to be a smart butt or anything), When trimming houses, we never had time to use jigs or anything like that we had to get the trim cut and put up fast or you didn't make any money. My crew and myself could trim a 2000 sq ft house with regular stairs in a day or we lost money. I can assure you we had to do some moving.
> 
> We didn't have time, we just bed the ceiling mold trim into the miter saw bed and cut. If the wall was a 45 degree wall outside corner we cut both pieces of trim 22 1/2 degrees and install. If the wall was and inside corner with a 45 degree wall, that was a little more complicated. We cut one piece of the trim at a 45 degree to fit the wall, then we cut the other piece at a 22 1/2 degree and cope really deep back under so the piece would lay over the first piece we installed.



I'm the same way... I can do inside or outside without jigs. When you have to crown 9-10 sets of cabinets a week over 7 years you better get good at it..lol


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

wsommariva said:


> Thank you Jar944. Watched the video.
> 
> So to review, I have a 45 degree outside corner. I cant cut my 37/53 crown molding to get it to fit. I did a 90 degree outside corners no problem, looks great. After I make my cuts for the 45 corner I get a wide 135 degree set up, not the 45 I need. Off by 90!
> 
> ...


By 45 degree corner, I'm assuming you mean an actual 45 degree accute angle? You need to cut 67.5 on a miter saw.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

BigJim said:


> I am confused ... If the wall was a 45 degree wall outside corner we cut both pieces of trim 22 1/2 degrees and install.


i believe you may be referring to a 135 degree corner.

above said, "You need to cut 67.5 on a miter saw. " can you show us how to do that?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

TimPa said:


> i believe you may be referring to a 135 degree corner.
> 
> above said, "You need to cut 67.5 on a miter saw. " can you show us how to do that?


This is exactly why there is so much confusion on the subject. Not only is the saw itself confusing to a newbie, but what are the exact angles taken by a protractor or an angle gauge so we can work backwards to the saw settings!


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## Jar944_2 (Oct 30, 2020)

TimPa said:


> i believe you may be referring to a 135 degree corner.
> 
> above said, "You need to cut 67.5 on a miter saw. " can you show us how to do that?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I posted the same method, just a different "jig" spacer block angle:









The sum of the two settings gives a 67.5 * angle cut.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Steve Neul said:


> Since I only cut an angle like that only every five years or so I just put the crown molding on the miter saw the same as it would fit on the wall and just cut it on a 22.5 degree angle. Of course if you have very large molding that wouldn't work. Then I would just tinker with it with some scrap molding. For a 90 degree angle you would angle the saw at 31.62 degrees and tilt the blade at 33.5 degrees. For 45 degrees I would start with half that and go from there.


I cut my crowns on the flat, so you need to set the miter and bevel angles. Which side depends if it is the left, right outside or left, right inside. I usually use some trig. for formulas that I have laminated to my saw table. That way you can allow for odd angles. Here is a chart to help you out. Also, when doing crown, you have to pick what you want to work off of, either the wall or the ceiling. Can't be both. You will end up with twists you can't get rid of.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

TimPa said:


> i believe you may be referring to a 135 degree corner.
> 
> above said, "You need to cut 67.5 on a miter saw. " can you show us how to do that?


Now I am confused, I don't understand where the 135 degrees comes in or the 67.5 degree. Maybe you are talking about cutting the trim laying flat on the table of the miter saw and not bedded in like on the wall except the trim will need to be cut upside down. I am sure we aren't on the same page for some reason.

The inside corner I am talking about being a 45 degree is this, take a 1x4 lay it on the saw flat and cut it on a 45 degree, that cut will fit. Never mind, I see what you are talking about now, you are talking about the wall itself forming an angle that is actually 135 degrees. You are right but when doing trim work, I never figured the wall angles, I didn't need too. I could look at the wall and know what angle to set my saw at, that is all I cared about. If the cut was off a hair I adjusted the cut.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

B Coll said:


> I cut my crowns on the flat, so you need to set the miter and bevel angles. Which side depends if it is the left, right outside or left, right inside. I usually use some trig. for formulas that I have laminated to my saw table. That way you can allow for odd angles. Here is a chart to help you out. Also, when doing crown, you have to pick what you want to work off of, either the wall or the ceiling. Can't be both. You will end up with twists you can't get rid of.
> View attachment 433700


The image that woodenthings posted #6, I've always installed crown like the 38 degree where the flat angles on the back sit smoothly against the wall and ceiling. I think it's an unnecessary amount of caulking to change the angle the molding was intended.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

You guys are great. Really great. I appreciate the help in understanding what I did wrong. All the videos I watched added together was helpful, but none were really discussing a 45 acute. 90s are simple. Job is all done and it looks real good. I can spend some time finetuning with spackle and it will look excellent. I'll post some pics. I never could do the 45 degree cut as my saw could not do it. Now maybe a jig could do it, but I am good with what I did. And I think that 45 would come out kinda pointy like a witches hat?

Following is my response to everyone, I hope I didn't miss anyone. And in a few years when I do the other side of the kitchen, I have 135 degree wide angles!! I hope I remember what I learned.

Jar944 - YES! - acute 45 per my 16 year old. I need 67.5 cut that my saw could not do. So plan B worked out.

B Coll and Steve. That chart agrees to Steve's angels that he explained when cutting flat. I could not figure that out; I think I needed to convert my saw's numbers to actual degree, so I was always 90 degrees off. I should have spent more time on that.

Woodnthings - YES - my zero is really a 90, and that was the problem.

Rebel - CM is 3.5 inches wide

Big Jim - I bought a Kreg Jig, it's ok. Of course I cut it up a bit placing it too near the saw. Best thing was the angle finder that came with it. All my corners were 90 and most dead on, except the 45 that was also dead on. My first inside corner came out real tight. The others not so and I needed some spackeling. I attribute that to the fact that I need to hold the CM at an angle while cutting. I am sure I was never at the same angle. I should spent more time making a jig for that. Is that the register? Don't know.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)




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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)




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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)




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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

BigJim said:


> Now I am confused, I don't understand where the 135 degrees comes in or the 67.5 degree. Maybe you are talking about cutting the trim laying flat on the table of the miter saw and not bedded in like on the wall except the trim will need to be cut upside down. I am sure we aren't on the same page for some reason.
> 
> The inside corner I am talking about being a 45 degree is this, take a 1x4 lay it on the saw flat and cut it on a 45 degree, that cut will fit. Never mind, I see what you are talking about now, you are talking about the wall itself forming an angle that is actually 135 degrees. You are right but when doing trim work, I never figured the wall angles, I didn't need too. I could look at the wall and know what angle to set my saw at, that is all I cared about. If the cut was off a hair I adjusted the cut.


you are right Jim, the OP has us all confused on the angle. But he points out that a 22.5 degree cut did not do it, so the assumption is that the angle is actually 45 degrees outside corner, which requires an angle to be cut (67.5 degrees), not attainable on a standard miter saw, without a jig of sorts (posts 17, 28, 29). otherwise, i do not see how it can be done accurately and safely. Anyway, moot point, he isn't attempting that corner anymore...

Rebel and you mentioned that you did it without jigs of any sort, do you remember how you would have made that cut? not calling you out sir, just curious... i know that contractors have many tricks up their sleeve


LOL POSTED THE SAME TIME. 45 DEGREE OUTSIDE CORNER ALRIGHT! THAT PIC WOULD HAVE HELPED A LOT!


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Funny that that cap I added to finish in the first picture was not my doing. That was one of many scraps that I ended up with. A perfect fit.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Tim - yes 45 outside, my saw could not do it. I understand confusion very well. I cut at 22.5 on my saw which was really 67.5 hence a perfect cut for a 135 outside corner. I made several


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

I am very happy that I know what I did wrong. I was going nuts.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm still trying to understand why this was so complicated...


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

I hope my explanation was correct. I had a 45 outside corner. So I cut at 22.5 on my mitre saw which unlike some saws shows zero when the blade is at 90. So on my saw I needed to use 67.5, which my saw does not do.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Reason I asked the width of the crown. I trimmed over 3000 sets of cabinets in 7 years and never turned it flat using 3 1/4 crown with a 10" mitersaw...


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

I tried flat out of desperation. Was trying everything.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

wsommariva said:


> I hope my explanation was correct. I had a 45 outside corner. So I cut at 22.5 on my mitre saw which unlike some saws shows zero when the blade is at 90. So on my saw I needed to use 67.5, which my saw does not do.


I think a vital piece of information left out LOL.

45° is an acute angle, kind of strange for a corner. I've only thought about it a little and I can see his confusion........

I tried to draw it out and got a mental meltdown. Its got to do with complimentary angles. The 22.5 is off the fence (67.5), not off 90 like a regular miter saw. Which on his weird saw is actually 22.5. A wedge like WNT and JAR showed seems correct.

I hope that clears it up Rebel, I don't even know what I just said


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

Need more of this type corner


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I guess I've just done so much crown that it's easy for me, but I have to understand that if you haven't done much it can be a pita....


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

TimPa said:


> you are right Jim, the OP has us all confused on the angle. But he points out that a 22.5 degree cut did not do it, so the assumption is that the angle is actually 45 degrees outside corner, which requires an angle to be cut (67.5 degrees), not attainable on a standard miter saw, without a jig of sorts (posts 17, 28, 29). otherwise, i do not see how it can be done accurately and safely. Anyway, moot point, he isn't attempting that corner anymore...
> 
> Rebel and you mentioned that you did it without jigs of any sort, do you remember how you would have made that cut? not calling you out sir, just curious... i know that contractors have many tricks up their sleeve
> 
> ...


Whew, my old brain can't handle stuff like this now days, one thought is bad enough, but when two or more thoughts are headed toward each other in my brain, watch out, lol

I tell you what use to confuse me was installing a true 1/4 round on a ceiling.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Unless I'm wrong, this video show both and inside and an outside 45 degree corner:


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## NoThankyou (Mar 21, 2018)

I have done crown molding only once. Yes, I had to buy another 12-foot section as the first one was little more than sawdust. I made a sled for my SCMS and held it in place with double side tape. The depth of the cut on the SCMS was limited to about ¼ inch into the sled. The sled was made from ¾ Baltic Birch and fit nicely over the top of the SCMS. The sled is a simple right angle fence arrangement. A simple flat horizontal and a right-angle fence to simulate the wall with the molding in place. You want to be able to put the crown molding stock on the sled as if it is on the wall. A strip about ½ high to hold the molding on the horizontal part of the sled. This holds the molding place during the cut and is mandatory. Yes, this means a different sled for each size (height) of crown molding. Remember that Baltic Birch is cheap, molding is not.

Contrary to all wisdom, advice and tables of angles, you are cutting the molding as it will be on the wall. It helps prevent mind warping. Forget all the upside down and backward poop. You will have to switch sides of the SCMS used depending upon which side of the corner, left or right, you are cutting. Same as the wall, duh.

When looking at the corner of the wall, there is a right and left side. Cut the angles on the same side of the saw as they are on the wall. Just be careful and realize that some of the angles being cut with the blade may be going toward your holding arm. 

Make your corners manageable, you don't want to be holding a 12-foot piece of molding while trying to fit a corner joint. Make both sides of the corner 30 inches or so. BUT make the ends so that they are over a stud in the wall. Cut the non-corner end at a 45° angle. Later, you will fit a longer piece, also mitered, into the corner piece. Most, if not all modern crown molding, is paint grade. Glue and shooting a few nails can make the joint invisible with a bit of caulk. If the crown molding needs to be stained and finished, I don't have advice. 

Two more things. If SWMBO wants to know why you bought that new 12-inch SCMS, the answer is, "Do you want crown molding or not?" 
Measurements are along the BOTTOM of the molding. If necessary, use a square to transfer the cut line to the top of the molding.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't recall any one here mentioning "coping" for crown moldings. This is a technique many pros use because they say it makes for a tighter joint.
You still miter the edge then using a "coping saw" cut at an angle still holding the mitered edge.


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## wsommariva (Jan 3, 2010)

I tried coping once. I bet with the foam molding it will cut much easier


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I always coped my inside joints. Make the coped piece about a light 1/8 inch loner than your measurements, when you pop the piece in place, it will look like it grew there.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i cope on the table saw...


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Unless I'm wrong, this video show both and inside and an outside 45 degree corner:


that video is for a 135 degree angle (notice that it is greatr then 90 degrees)


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

TimPa said:


> I cope on the table saw...


I'm with you on this! At job helping a friend install base board, all I had was a table saw and a jig/saber saw.
I use the table saw to "cope" the miters when possible and the saber saw when that worked best.
Sometimes, "Ya gotta run what ya brung" as they say.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Base and ceiling crown it’s normal to cope. Cabinet trim no…


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