# harvesting old fallen logs



## arvanlaar (Dec 29, 2014)

Hey All,

As my sig says I am new to woodworking and have absolutely 0 knowledge when it cones to milling.

The missus and I were out for a few hours hiking in the woods and I saw over and over again big ol' trees cut down or fallen down everywhere. Some older pieces of wood (I am guessing 3-4 years old?) with moss and lichen growing on it were around as well. I always thought this wood was useless because it was decomposing (thinking in terms of burning wood) but today after perusing through this section of the forum I saw two posts with older looking deadfall and harvesting wood form it.

Can anyone give me some pointers when it comes to harvesting older deadfall? What does one need to look for to know if it will be a good piece or worthless?

Thanks so much!


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

I have cleaned up a lot of dead fall on my property most looked like Elm, you know the are no good when you pick up a 12" branch and it breaks.

I saw those triple stumps, looked like junk to me but I don't know that much, I would say that once there is moss growing on them they are too far gone, some I came across that were suspended above ground, looked ok.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Moss really has nothing to do with it...IT'S how solid it still is. 

The triple stump is a specialty in that they line up straight and are fairly solid connected by aligning roots BUT will ONLY produce a few boards due to defects..... BUT IF all the stars align LOL they'll be awesome. Just for info I'll have up to 3 hrs labor involved prior to putting the saw blade into it.

This style of sawing is risky and costly ....NOT all woods pan out as hoped, high damage to blades and tools and a LOT of labor. IF you have the natural eye you to see prior cutting you have the advantage and upper hand.

Arvanlaar, just to get logs out of the woods gets expensive....IF it's one log wanted then you can get by with a little equipment BUT lots of sweat equity, but usually requires minimum of a tractor if getting multiples. NEXT is finding somebody willing to saw it...MOST won't, TOO RISKY and time consuming...expect high hourly rates...it's custom cutting. SIZE matters....it's hard to use up alot of time on small boards that sell for less.

Now is this for personal or business???....WHY I ask.... IF it's personal you'll spend more for a special log that has memories than as a business venture.

Maybe this helps.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

to Tim, where do some of those boards you cut end up?

most don't look like strong lumber to me, if anything more like artistic pieces for who knows what, I honestly don't know any better


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Not to hijack this thread BUT this will help any with interest....NOT many of the trees I SEE make it to my saw!!!! In reality about 5% at best when dealing with deadfall... There are various uses in end results. NOW I personally look for solid BUT the artistic does come out.

Georger...DON'T let the looks fool you....3% of my dried sawed product wouldn't be strong enough for joinery and would only be pure artform end use...the other 97% is solid and strong. As with ANY project there is a 5-10% waste or unusable wood such as edges, ends or unwanted defects, in rustic the percentages are even lower. I would need specific pieces you're talking about to give correct info.

DEADFALL ... mmmmm.... most is rotted and destroyed as soon as hitting the ground....and most of the time is why it's there. Some fall for other reasons as unstable soil, erosion, etc., etc. and have good heartwood. I've found IF a tree falls and otherwise was healthy the heartwood will survive solid in tact for several years. The higher survivors are locust, white oak, walnut, cherry, cypress, sassafras....these you can find some spalting in but usually not much or very little. 

Spalting...Yes alot of my sawing shows natural spalting but it's usually only in the beginning 2nd stage....3rd stage (rot process) isnt where you want to be. YES I have logs that I let go TOOOOO far and can only salvage the inner heart area.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

not to hijack either but we are talking about deadfall, and I see you work with it a lot, so if anything you must know a thing or 2 I see lots of your posts showing various fallen trunks recoveries, and many members drawling over the results, I personally don't get it probably because I have no idea what you all do with it, so I assume its for the figure, for example I see a lot of crotches you showcase, do they end up being cut square, jointed and used for furniture? fot the look I assume.

I am more mechanical of nature so I look for straight strong large pieces, that can support a bit of structure, the crotches are short and the grain looks weak at the crotch ( but what do I know ).

so I assume most of those pieces end up in some kind of furniture


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Georger, check my website link and you can see it's not all short pcs and various furniture and tops I've built and others have built. Some crotches are strong while others have a rattail (dirt embedded in narrow crotch) and WILL break into and requires support or bracing or straightling and gluing IF it would hold the pressure.

This is a style not a traditional /classic which are straight knotfree no defect boards...I saw the UGLY not wanted pieces...anyone can saw plain...the fun is breaking out of the box and sawing what they say can't be done or is considered useless and not worthy!!

Please don't take that wrong...I enjoy seeing classic and tradional pieces that are crafted in quality heirlooms AND I can saw grade lumber BUT I can tell a person how to do one log and the rest are basically the same... WITH crotches, spalt, defected logs IT'S all a new challenge each time... I have a few that I've mulled over a few years to best lay on the saw...Some have MULTIPLE facets!!! IT'S a BRAIN game for me. How to get the best figure out of it!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm not into milling wood yet however I have 10 acres of wooded land. Any trees that fall on my place quickly rots and gets full of wood boring beetles. I can't imagine getting any usable lumber out of logs that have fallen for a year or more.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve, you sound to be in a softwood area or heavily diseased. Most hardwood will survive a yr easily unless diseased prior. The sapwood starts almost immediately degrading. 

NOTE: most trees don't fall when healthy unless wind blows down, most fall due to unhealthy and diseased. Most are not totally bad and UGLY as the my pics appear sometimes...then sometimes they are:thumbdown:


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Georger.
Tim has (as of the last few years) been supplying me with odd cuts. It's the only way to produce some of the ''one off' unique pieces I construct.

www.gnarlywooddesigns.weebly.com

My site shows some of my work.

Without some of these odd cuts, I'm limited in scope of what I can design.
I even use hollowed out logs. Structurally they need reviewed. Considering my architectural background, it is something that I can do and is a challenge, but mostly things built with wild grains, I overbuild anyways.

Like Tim, I appreciate fine joinery and straight clean lumber....for somebody else....


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

Da Aardvark said:


> Georger.
> Tim has (as of the last few years) been supplying me with odd cuts. It's the only way to produce some of the ''one off' unique pieces I construct.
> 
> www.gnarlywooddesigns.weebly.com
> ...


HOLLY FUDGE, I am not a religious man by any means, that's a bout as clean language as I could come up with to express my reaction.

guess that settles the debate weather its worth dragging old fallen logs out of the woods.

Honest question, this is all new to me, I must say I am sticker shocked, not saying I cant recognize the work that went into it, but dam! they actually sell too!? I honestly thought you may be on something or the prices were in a different currency.

not picking on your trade by any means, just shocked hence the choice of words to express my colorful reaction.

I don't suppose this is a volume production nor are there many as deep pockets, your average Joe is not in your customer list.

I offered the wife to build her a house like this, furniture, cabinets, wall coverings, mind you I am a bit rough, and not just around the edges, I do lack in the finishing touches department and that is for everything I do, she totally rejected the Idea, justifying it would be too rough, little does she know what such pieces are valued.:laughing:

I am speechless, learned something new I guess, that's what curiosity gets you. thanks for schooling me I am obviously in the wrong line of work, I best have a look at some of those stumps I have been piling, I have the equipment and the know how, best visit the library for some artistic books.

so far these stumps were a pain in the way, little did I know what you all value them, I worked my ass off splitting a huge one in smaller, more manageable firewood pieces last summer


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Actually Georger, my pricing is midline from other sites I've been to. Some are near triple what I charge.
Their quality is a tad more superior, but I fall in a pricing that is strongly competitive, so it works.
I live outside of an area with mucho millionaires. It's a very tourist like area with large numbers of folks with 2nd homes up in these mountains. Their second homes are $300-400k and up into the 7 figure range.

It's a select few that want these types of pieces and I don't sell a whole lot. Either a persons interior design fits these pieces or they don't and most interiors don't. Still, some want an occasional piece for whatever space, and fall in love with the designs so much they force my pieces to fit their interiors.

I consider the designs to be a modern/contemporary/rustic version of the "Arts and Crafts" style. I've had my pieces in art galleries and only use the website as a means of showing other pieces. They need to be seen to be appreciated.

Currently my work has stopped. I have 12 pieces that I'm not currently even marketing. Been too busy restoring a old 1909 farmhouse to a Arts Crafts design. Even the window/door/floor trims will be live edged walnut. If I never sell a piece, I can incorporate them into my home, but never turn down an offer.

Still, you can see why straight laced common grained lumber pieces mean little to me. Having someone like Tennessee Tim makes my picking and choosing easier and I don't need to fell my own trees to get what's needed.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Steve, you sound to be in a softwood area or heavily diseased. Most hardwood will survive a yr easily unless diseased prior. The sapwood starts almost immediately degrading.
> 
> NOTE: most trees don't fall when healthy unless wind blows down, most fall due to unhealthy and diseased. Most are not totally bad and UGLY as the my pics appear sometimes...then sometimes they are:thumbdown:


Actually I don't have any softwood except for a few cypress trees I planted around a pond. I have very little soft hardwood on my place too. Most of what I have is white oak and hickory with some ash. I have a lot of aromatic cedar but the bugs don't bother that. I believe the only soft hardwood I have is cottonwood and I don't have very much of it.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve,
You are correct on hickory even a healthy one won't survive much over a year on the ground....IT seems to have a natural insect pellent (it's definitely not repelling LOL). Ash falls some in that line BUT we retrieved several sound heartwood that I know were 2 yr fallen. Ground moisture content has play in this also...as to where I'm on hillsides water doesn't get in as fast.

White Oak....TRUE WO they built ships with, IT has to have resistance....BUT Chestnut Oak/some call Rock oak is sold and classified as WO except it doesn't have the closed cell of resistance. I have both...once sawn my untrained eye hasn't Learned the difference so I keep mine seperated on the yard in log form where I know the bark. Chestnut Oak will rot at a rate a little slower than the hickory and ash BUT is still in the quicker category. I think cottonwood is also.

NOTE: As I stated before...ONLY a 3-5% of my deadfall find in the woods ARE good enough to bring out to the mill. Unhealthy diseased consumes the MOST!!!

Georger....YES all of this is SPECIALTY wood and SPECIALTY pricing. A little info...JUST on my end ONCE I've found the wood, mull over, sawn, Air dried properly, KD properly and ready for sale is normally 3-4 yrs process BEFORE I can start the reap. I believe in slow drying and natural air pressures makes the most stabile slabs. Some I can get turned around in less BUT it DEPENDS ALL on moisture content at sawing time. NO it's not production high volume....it's SPECIALTY wood.

I hope this helps...it's all about educating....I've been on the I just thought side also or I've always seen... but wasn't educated properly to know the who, what, when, wheres as to why the end results. I'm a down to earth simple common sense guy with some mechanical and art mind. I DEFINITELY can't lay this out in scientific terms...it just happens and different regions effect different ways.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

I have come across such pieces on other sites searching for one thing or another, I like the look but on my perspective they are interesting projects to keep occupied with in my spare time, I have been sticker shocked before just this is my first time where I can get some insight from the artisan,

I will keep tabs on what you boys are up to as you already gave me some inspiration like the live edge trim, that is a cool Idea, in my book its an awesome way to make use of what would otherwise be trimming waist, and I will have lots of it laying around.

if you haven't already I'd love to see a thread about the house project, I am building from scratch and I am not very artistic minded, for some reason the live edge trim I would probably not figure out for myself, I browsed through Tim's posts and pictures yet I could not envision what to do with the pieces, like the crotches after looking at his site looks like a cool way to make rocking chairs.

I am more mechanical in nature and initially I was looking at my trees as structural lumber, such pieces are worthless in that department yet far more worth if put to good use.

just curious, how do you come up with the numbers? its not a supply and demand thing and I doubt its much of a production cost ( thou some may need to be considered ) guess its all a matter of how much its worth to you!

http://www.stoneandcottonwood.com/dining-tables this was the site I got my first glimpse at what such pieces are valued, I was only goggling for information on what the "worthless" pile of cottonwood I am sitting on could be used for, as luck would have it this is a back burner project, the logs are stacked and waiting for me to find the time to mess around, my saw mill is still in the crate and I got a few more to drop, by the time I get around to it they may develop some of those Ugly flaws and discoloration defects I read about


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Georger, thanks for the link...that was interesting use with cottonwood. As you may of read in their statements it's a long process from sawing to using and that's part of the pricing and it's unusual cuts. Cottonwood here is considered trash and usually not worthy of logging...BUT I won't pass a chance to saw an unusual piece..LOL

Note: watch your stacks of logs, even off the ground they will hold moisture and start the break-down process.. As structure lumber you WANT to saw as soon after logging to maintain the highest structual strength..There are charts on fresh cut logs BUT most aren't rated for the long wait process as some of us do for furniture and art due to the break-down process of the log varies from species to species and region to region.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

Likewise Cottonwood, where I was from (Illinois) was considered a junk tree and cut down due to the snowy mess they cause. Not so sure they even made good firewood.
Also most building departments these days won't allow you to use sawmill lumber for structural framing without being certified and graded.
......
My pricing generally varies due to the piece, but I build a lot of profit margin in. Reasoning is that some galleries charge up to 40% (and some higher) of the sale price. That needs to be considered. Also no business I know can (as a rule) succeed without at least a 40-50% profit margin when all expenses and labor are figured in. 

If your a hobbyist, then the pricing drops. I don't consider my work a hobby. I don't have any hobbies that won't profit me. Lifes too short, and I value my labor time at well over $50.00 per hour.
Do I always make that rate? Nope, but sometimes I make near double that labor rate.
Still when all is said and done I'll double the price of labor/materials/ building overhead/utilities/etc. If the piece seems extraordinary I'll up that doubling some.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

yeah I was curious how this is worked out, say Tim saws open a dozen rotten stumps and the 13th one has those incredible boards guess the cost for the board is all the work previous mentioned X2

I always looked at such projects as something I wanted to do for myself so I never bother to put a dollar amount on them. but than again there are those that want but cant to so they have to find somebody who can, 

It dawned on me earlier today, if you have to drag your pieces to half a dozen expos to sell one on the 7th, maybe I am fine doing what I am doing instead, than you mention they charge a fee and admission, this is so not for me, but I do like the work, I spent some time looking up more pictures and Ideas today.

as for my Cottonwood, I mainly took them down because I am clearing the land in that area, I got about another 100 to go I want to drop them and promote the better quality understory in the rest of my land, yet I never saw the fuzz, wonder if they were all males:laughing:

the picture I posted in the "logs" thread is about 8 medium size trees, and I have that much more firewood from them, as for the junk lumber: http://www.jaymcdougall.com/blog have a look at this, just one of the pages I came across while looking for ideas.

I wanted 3/4" planks to substitute plywood/osb, not necessarily structural, too much headache going that route as mentioned, stamps and specialists, as for timing, hey I don't do this for a living we'll see what happens when I get around to it.

it would be good for large slabs for furniture as it weighs half as much as oak, if you can find cuts as I posted above and to stay on topic, Cottonwood is considered worthless alive just like the fallen trees that started this conversation, may be a resource the op should explore, some people will pay to have it hauled away, that is better than Free, I came across articles the Utility company will drop them off at your door if you ask for them.


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

I don't drag pieces to expo's. My time is worth more than that. I had them placed in a gallery and let the gallery sell them.

I'll trust you that cottonwood is a acceptable wood, and would even work with it if the piece(s) had the characteristics I would like to see. Haven't been exposed to any yet.

The reality is the price of the wood I use is such a small portion of the end products cost. At worst it's 20% of the project cost, and can run as low as 5%. It's the labor, drying cost (I kiln my own), and finish materials.
So I opt for more appreciated hardwoods like walnut/maple/cherry, etc.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm not by any mean advocating Cottonwood, nor to be misleading, I have no experience with it, I found myself with a lot of it to dispose and these are some large trunks, felt like a shame not to try to put it to better use and while looking into it I came across some interesting pieces and opinions.


here's something else I came across, I call it revenge on Tim, he gets you all drooling all the time with his finds, time for him to be jealous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tTs4MA0uXM


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## Da Aardvark (Oct 11, 2012)

''Blocked plug in'' on my end.
Had a few issues as of late that way.'

Again. Not opposed to Cottonwood, unless on my property.


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## georger (Dec 3, 2014)

on you tube search for :
Dangerous Tree Cutting, Tree Climbing, Big Tree Felling by Ace Tree 

came across it before I know what you all do 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tTs4MA0uXM


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## goodgal (Jan 3, 2015)

I love cottonwood bark for carving.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

".....here's something else I came across, I call it revenge on Tim, he gets you all drooling all the time with his finds, time for him to be jealous..."

LOL


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