# Washer dryer cabinet & hinges?



## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Our next real project is building a cabinet for the front loading washer & dryer. Our washer & dryer are in a hallway and had raised panel French doors, which blocked hall access when they were open. 

The plan is to build a cabinet with bifold doors for washer & dryer access. I want the bifold doors to fold all the way back around the sides of the cabinet so the appliance doors can be fully opened.

Are there hinges that will wrap that way on a face frame, or do we need to build frameless?

This link shows a tv armoire with a hinged stile. Is that common, and how hard to find the hardware? I've also seen something similar with a piano hinge on the side stile.


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## jlhaslip (Jan 16, 2010)

Lee Valley sells pocket door slides, but they are not really designed for a full height door such as you have.
Max 25 pounds and 24 inch depth.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm thinking if you went with full overlay, you could use piano hinges to achieve what you want to do. Butt hinges would work too, just mount them to the face of the face frame and the back side of the door.


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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

try accordion doors.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Most face frame hinges don't open that far. Your best bet would be to use a spacer on the cabinet wall that comes out flush with the edge of the face frame. Or, notch the face frame for the hinge. Then you could use a number of cabinet wall mount hinges that have opening rotation to lay almost flat in the open position.

For a hinge between the bi-folds, these Soss hinges take some care to install, but nothing shows front or back when they are in the closed position.










 









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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

I ended up getting <a href="http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=259&filter=270%20hinge"these 270 hinges</a> so the doors can fold completely back.

Now we are on to the broom closet, and once again, our inexperience is causing us to butt heads.

Here is a drawing of what I want to do in a 7 1/2 foot space. Instead of one large cabinet on the end, we think we can do a smaller cabinet on each end. One end will be open at the bottom to roll in the vacuum cleaner and the other end will be shelves from top to bottom. The broom cabinet will have a horizontal stile close to the center for support, and there will be a door on top and a door on the bottom.









The problem we are having is how to build a narrow cabinet that is completely open on the bottom so the vacuum can roll in. AND, since it's narrow, not have any wasted space on the sides.

My idea was to do frameless there also. Dh likes to build cabinets with frame for several reasons - to cover the edge of the plywood, for stability, to have space for the doors to open fully, and to have space for some trim if the wall isn't square and there is a gap. All good reasons, but with a stile on the sides, I'm losing at least 2 inches on each of the side cabinets.

Here is a picture of the space, with the washer & dryer against the right wall. We're building the cabinet today that will go against the left wall. That thing up in the top corner has something to do with the hvac so it stays.









My question now is, can this cabinet be done frameless? If not, how would you do it? If it can be done frameless, how do you cover the plywood edge? And what hinges would you use if not one like I bought for the other cabinet?


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

And here is that 1st cabinet now. It's too tight to get a photo of the whole thing so two pix to show it.


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Anyone?


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Yes, you can do it frameless, you can get an iron-on wood tape to cover the edges of the plywood. 

You still need space for the door to open fully though. So you probably are going to need to keep the cabinet at least 1" away from the wall, more if you are putting on knobs. You can fill the space with a filler. 

On frameless, you can make an L shape with two pieces of wood. You use one leg of the L to screw the assembly to the side of the cabinet. Then you can bring the filler out flush with your doors or attach it back flush with the box. I've done it both ways. 

For hinges, adjustable euro hinges (blum) are all I've ever used for frameless. Mostly


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

I would also run a cant strip or some kind of cleat along the inside edges of the box to keep things sturdy.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Marti said:


> Anyone?



You can have the wall end of the cabinet right up close to the wall. I would suggest you shim the wall side of that cabinet and attach it to the wall to give it some rigidity. 

You can use a solid wood edge band in most any thickness to go on the edge. It would not be that structural, but mostly decorative. Or you can use a PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) wood tape. Or, you could use a hot melt wood tape that's applied with an iron. Both of those are very thin, and easy to apply.

Full overlay concealed hinges can be used allowing the edge of the door to fully cover the edge of the cabinet. It will permit the door to be that close to the wall and still open. But with the door at 90 degrees the edge of the door protrudes slightly from the wall of the cabinet. For a 3/4" cabinet wall, it's about 5/16".

You can use a zero clearance hinge that opens the door clear to the opening. The only obstruction would be the arm/plate of the hinge. This hinge would give the maximum clearance for the door.





















 









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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Just my opinion I don't think you will be happy with a door that only opens 90 degrees. It maybe doesn't seem like a big deal but it is pretty awkward. So I would still suggest keeping the cabinet away from the wall.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh yeah, and if you use PSA tape, you will want to fill the edges with bondo and sand to get better adhesion. Most plywood will have some gaps in the edge.


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Thank you both. We decided to go with a narrow stile and euro hinges. 

Yes, the tall cabinet is attached to the wall on the left , and to the back wall on the right side. Because of plumbing, we didn't put a back on the cabinet, just a cleat at top, bottom, and upper right.

What is a cant strip?


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

A cant strip is just a piece of wood whose profile is a right triangle. My thinking is that you shouldn't leave the bottom edges floating so attaching some sort of cleat to the inside bottom edge and to the floor would add stability. If you used cant strip, less dust would collect on the top


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Nevermind, I forgot there is another cabinet going right up next to it so you could just attach the bottom to the other cabinet. You probably already thought that through.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Just a suggestion. You likely have figured your vertical spacing inside the tall cabinet, so it may be moot at this point. Base cabinets should have toe kicks. If for no other reason to visually give the bottom of the cabinet a finished look. Doors can only be a minimal clearance to the floor, but can sustain damage from common usage.

Cleaning is another problem. With cabinet ends to the floor, they will be the subject of mopping, leaks or any moisture. A habit I got into years ago was to make loose toe kicks out of exterior grade plywood, like A/C fir, or marine grade. I would then make toe kick faces out of ¼" ply in the species of the cabinet that are an applied fascia. Any exterior damage resulting in the need to fix a toe kick would be very easy to remove the old and apply the new, without disturbing the cabinet.

Having a toe kick brings the door off the floor minimizing the possibility of damage, even from just kicking. Walking up to a cabinet puts a door that low at risk. Usually in utility cabinets, they will have the same toe kick height as other base cabinets. Their door(s) will line up at the bottom edge with other doors or drawer fronts. The cabinet will have a full floor.

It's the bottom of this picture I'm referring to.












 





 

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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Normally, we would put in toe kicks, but I want this one to have more of a furniture, or old cabinet look. Also, because of the washer & dryer, the front of the cabinet needs to be as close to them as possible and a toe kick would push them back a few inches and make it harder to reach into them.


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

Just an update and two more questions.

We are going to have to put a base in that tall cabinet on the left. My plan was to attach the baseboard to the bottom of the door so it looked like the other side, but the baseboard is too thick and would be more of a problem than the knob when opening. I hate it because I'll have to lift the vacuum but hopefully the vac will tilt so I can catch the front wheels on the base. Or maybe by the time I'm too old to lift the vac, I can get one of those lightweight vacs.

My question. Have you ever put inset and overlay doors on the same cabinet? How does it look? I've been turning over an idea to make the bifold doors on the washer dryer cabinet look like inset, but I just don't think it will work out.

2nd - We found a table top that will work well as the counter top, but it is about 2" too long. It's plywood with a knotty pine veneer and the band around the bottom is made of 2 1/2" x 1 1/2" solid pine and is flush with the edge of the plywood. Would you take the band completely off before cutting 2" off one end, or just take off one end piece? If we don't have a router bit that matches, we'll have to recut the whole thing after it's the right size.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Yes, bifold doors are usually inset so it is not uncommon to have overlay doors and an inset bifold in a closet system.

As far as the countertop, you can cut off just one edge first right along the glue line. Then cut the 1 7/8" or so (remember you already lost 1/8" from saw kerf) starting from the back but stop your cut short about 1" or so from the front edge then carefully use a jig saw to cut just up to the glue line of the front edge. Then come in from the side with the jig saw carefully cutting along the glue line to complete the resizing. Now you should have a front edge that is protruding past the length of the top about 1 7/8". Carefully cut a 45. It would be best if you can set up some kind of a straight edge so that this cut is as close to perfect as you can get it. 

Now you should be ready to cut a 45 on your side edge and reglue it to the top. You will want to use a sanding block to clean up the edges before gluing it up. Don't know if that made sense but have fun.

After rereading your post, not sure if the edge is 1 1/2 wide by 2 1/2 thick or visa versa. Of course if the edge is 2 1/2" wide, this won't work. you would have to add an initial step. This would consist of cutting along the glue line of the miter before cutting the side edge off.


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm not sure what glue line you mean. If my husband would read this, he would probably understand, but he said he knew what he was doing when I told him I was going to get the opinions of people who built cabinets every day. Yet, he keeps measuring and making marks on this table top and nothing is getting done. :icon_smile:

I took some pictures to see if we are talking about the same thing.

The band around the table top is attached under the plywood, similar to the way a formica counter top is.

Here is a photo of the bottom of the table top showing the skirt material. It is 1 1/2 inches thick and 2 1/2 inches wide.









Here is a photo of the top with red lines showing approximately how it needs to be cut to fit between the cabinets.









And here is a photo of the cabinet as it is right now with a red rectangle representing a cleat that the table top will sit on. Another cleat on the other side.









It looks to me that we should be able to unscrew one of the side pieces of the skirt, move it in a few inches and just cut a new curve in the long pieces. But then, I just know what I want it to look like, not how to do much.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah I thought the edging was applied differently, I'm not sure how you are going the save the edge. As far as cutting to size, make a template out of 2" wide strips of 1/8" plywood. You can attach everything with hot glue and 1/4" staples. Do your outline obviously but you also need to brace everything together so the template doesn't break. If you notice the back wall is not straight, which is usually the case, write notes right on the template indicating how far out the wall is in particular places.

Stick down some blue tape on your top and trace your template. Cut your plywood a little oversized on the part that will be going between your two cabinets and then use a belt sander to get right up to your line but angle your belt sander slightly so you have a sharp edge on the top of the plywood. This way you can easily use a sanding block to take off small amounts of material where you need to touch up. 

When you make the cut along the back side, leave an extra 1/16"-1/8" and angle the cut to give yourself a sharp edge on the top. Now when you dryfit the top, figure out exactly how much you need your top to move back to make everything tight. Set a compass to that measurment and then scribe along the wall with the compass. Remove the countertop, sand to that line and then put it back in and secure it. Should fit nice and tight.

One more thing, always score your cut line with a utility knive when cutting across the grain.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

It looks to be a simple cut of the top to fit the opening. I would mark off on the skirt what is to be cut off. You could use a jig saw to cut through the skirt to the underside of the top, or use a handsaw. Remove the skirt.

Cut the top to fit the opening with a jig saw, or a hand held circular saw and straight edge. Cut the loose skirt to fit back onto the bottom of the plywood, or make new skirting. BTW, that skirting can also be called a "buildup".












 









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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

If you use a straight edge to make your cuts, I'll almost guarantee there will be gaps. Walls are never straight and even cabinet sides can be slightly skewed. 

Also, is the edge veneered? I'm assuming it was. If so, you could do as cabinetman suggests, simply moving the edge over but then you would also have to remove all the veener from the edge and replace it with a new piece so you don't see any joint lines. That isn't a big deal, get a container with lacquer thinner and dip a putty knife in the lacquer thinner then work the veneer away from the edge with your putty knife, dipping it back in the lacquer thinner every once in a while to keep it wet. Put down a drop cloth so you don't drip on your floor. Sometimes you can also just use a hair dryer to heat it up then peel it off with a putty knife.

The hard part is getting a tight seem at the top of the edge. Not impossible but dry fit it before trying to glue it on. You can use contact cement.


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## Marti (Nov 22, 2010)

sketel said:


> Stick down some blue tape on your top and trace your template. Cut your plywood a little oversized on the part that will be going between your two cabinets and then use a belt sander to get right up to your line but angle your belt sander slightly so you have a sharp edge on the top of the plywood. This way you can easily use a sanding block to take off small amounts of material where you need to touch up.
> 
> When you make the cut along the back side, leave an extra 1/16"-1/8" and angle the cut to give yourself a sharp edge on the top. Now when you dryfit the top, figure out exactly how much you need your top to move back to make everything tight. Set a compass to that measurment and then scribe along the wall with the compass. Remove the countertop, sand to that line and then put it back in and secure it. Should fit nice and tight.
> 
> ...



Great ideas, thank you! I have seen people score wood before cutting but have never done it. Do you do that top & bottom and then cut along the line or outside it?

The edge isn't veneered and that's why I'm so mad at myself for not noticing when we bought it. It's just plywood with a routered edge. In my defense, it is a dark stain and the table was in a dimly lit room when we bought it. We should have asked to take it outside to inspect it.



cabinetman said:


> It looks to be a simple cut of the top to fit the opening. I would mark off on the skirt what is to be cut off. You could use a jig saw to cut through the skirt to the underside of the top, or use a handsaw. Remove the skirt.
> 
> Cut the top to fit the opening with a jig saw, or a hand held circular saw and straight edge. Cut the loose skirt to fit back onto the bottom of the plywood, or make new skirting. BTW, that skirting can also be called a "buildup".


Yes, that sounds like a much better idea than my thought of taking off the entire skirting/buildup. In fact, I could take an inch off each side without removing that and it won't take too much off it. But it definitely needs to be taken completely off where it is between the two cabinets.

We need to stop working on this and get ready for Christmas and company now, but I'll probably have another question when we start trying to fit it.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

You just need to score on the top and any edge you make an exit cut when using a skill saw or a jig saw with a standard blade. Alternatively, you could get a down cutting blade for a jig saw but those tend to jump around a little if you're not used to them.


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