# Advce on M+T



## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

Getting ready to try my first official furniture build. I am just going to do a basic end table build and have a couple of ideas on design which includes doing Mortise +Tenon on the main supports and cross beams(?). I plan on checking out a couple of youtube videos (thank God for the internet) as well. I will use my TS and Forstner bits. I don't have any jigs but I think I could probably free hand if I am careful. Without using too many technical terms (I don't want to spend half my time looking up terms) I am looking for suggestions etc. on the correct procedures, positioning, measuring... Well you get the idea. If anyone has a good youtube video to share that will help I would love to hear it. :thumbsup:


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## Thomas Saunders (Jan 20, 2014)

This one is pretty good





 I liked this one if you plans on doing it without the ts.

Hope these help


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## Billy De (Jul 19, 2009)

Rob, notice how the guy in the second you tube marks the mortice and tenon from one side of the stock this is called, face side and face edge.

If I was to give any one doing any joinery for the first time any advise it would be to understand face side and face edge and the effects these two sides will have on any joinery work you wish to carry out.

Here is a link to a thread showing how I was originally taught how to hand cut mortice and tenons if you can use any part of it you are more than welcome.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/motice-tenon-how-52790/


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## Crusader (Jan 14, 2013)

All kinds of ways to accomplish a M&T but here's what I do. I always make my mortises first then my tenons. I found by doing this I can sneak up on my tenon fit. I use a mortising machine so mine come out consistent in width. Spend a fair amount of time getting your ts
set up correctly so your shoulders come out equal.
Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

I think it's worth looking into making a few jigs. I just recently built these for doing M&T joints. Mine are more complicated than most, but there are definitely simpler ones out there. Tenon jig from woodgears.ca plans: You set stops up and just move the lever and the entire upper carriage moves. You only use 1 reference face, and there's a dial indicator so you can tell exactly how large your tenon will be. ] And a mortise jig from wood smith. Set the stop blocks in all 4 directions and you can rout out a mortise of any size.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'll be honest with you: at this point I'm still very much a beginner with hand tools, and I can't imagine cutting tenons with a power tool again unless I had a huge run of them to do. Half a dozen chairs, say. With a good backsaw and a wide bench chisel they're really pretty easy to cut. I'm building a lid for a tool chest that uses bridle joints at the corners, and cutting the tenons has been pretty easy, although my accuracy leaves something to be desired. I think about the jigs and time required to make them, and the space required to store them, and I just cringe. I don't have a big enough shop for that, and I'd rather be working on building skills than jigs.

Mortises, now... I would absolutely love to have a mortising machine. In the meantime, I'll cut most of my mortises (in the summer, when I can use the big shop) with a drill press and clean them out with a chisel.

Now... all of that said, please don't take this to mean I think YOU should never use a power tool. If that's what you're in to, or if you're expecting to do large runs, go for it! But I do think it might be worth your time to buy a decent handsaw and give that a try. You might find it a lot easier than you expect.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Lol....I can't ever imagine cutting a tennon by hand again....I guess it's all relative....


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

ryan50hrl said:


> Lol....I can't ever imagine cutting a tennon by hand again....I guess it's all relative....


Yep! Like I said, I just think it's worth a shot. If you're only doing a single nightstand, and you don't already have the jigs, it might be faster to do them by hand.

On the other hand, for a lot of people it will be a lot faster by machine... It'll vary a lot person to person.


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## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks guys. I appreciate the good advice. I think I am going to try it first with my TS and drill press. I have a couple of hand saws I think I could use if I decided to try that direction. I may eventually make a jig but I am going to try it the way the guy in the 1st video did it. I am certainly going to try a few practice M+T before I try on the end tables but I feel confident that I can figure it out. I am excited to get started. And yes, I will post pics on the build. :thumbsup:


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## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

Worked on my M+T joints yesterday. The Tenon was fairly straight forward. Definitely see the need for a jig. I will be looking into building one soon. A little spooky holding that wood against the fence over the blade. The mortise was another matter. I think part of the trouble I had is leveling the drill press correctly, before using the Forstner bits and then the wood chisels. I was also using some scrap pine and redwood I had around which I suspect caused some trouble, because of how soft it is. I don't quite get the concept for the face side and the face edge. I will have to see if I can find another explanation. Its always a conceptual thing with me. Until I can really understand the relationship and picture it in my head it kind of just bounces around. I suspect that also may be part of the problem. They didn't turn out terrible, just not as good as I wanted. Part of the learning curve I know but a little frustrating. I hate to practice with any of the wood I may want to use for the build (Did I mention I will be trying to use primarily reclaimed pallet wood) but I may have too since some of it is hard wood and may change the dynamics of the M+T.


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?

Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*agreed!*



JMartel said:


> Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?
> 
> Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.



Please resize your photos in this post so we don't have to scroll 3 times to read each comment...PITA :furious:


Now as to the safety aspect. There are 2 basic ways to make a tenon on the table saw... vertically and horizontally. A tenon jig as you have shown is the best and safest way to make them vertically. And the "nibbling" method with a blade or dado is the only way possible to make them horizontally.

Do not hand hold a piece vertically with the end on the table and face against the fence, you are asking for trouble in the form of a kickback OR a sloppy and inaccurate cut. :yes:


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Really simple way to cut tenons with a table saw is with a dado stack & miter gauge. I'd skip all the complicated jigs; just looking at all that stuff makes my head hurt. JMO. I find that simpler is always better, more control over your finished product. And you'll develop some useful skills along the way. 
And like Andy said, they're not that hard to cut by hand if you choose that route. I cut mortises with a Forstner bit & chisels fairly quickly, not a huge deal. All it takes is some experimentation.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BZawat said:


> Really simple way to cut tenons with a table saw is with a dado stack & miter gauge. I'd skip all the complicated jigs; just looking at all that stuff makes my head hurt. JMO. I find that simpler is always better, more control over your finished product. And you'll develop some useful skills along the way.
> And like Andy said, they're not that hard to cut by hand if you choose that route. I cut mortises with a Forstner bit & chisels fairly quickly, not a huge deal. All it takes is some experimentation.


+1. :yes: If you have a RAS, you could do the tenons. Using chisels for the mortises, will do tearing and crushing unless they are very sharp. 








 








.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

I'll probably try cutting them by hand next time, but to add one more method to the mix: you can cut the shoulders on the table saw and them cut the cheeks off on the bandsaw with one fence setting on each and proceed very quickly with no jigs and with only four passes on each machine rather than nibble cuts.


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Please resize your photos in this post so we don't have to scroll 3 times to read each comment...PITA :furious:
> 
> :


Me? The photos are a standard 1024px on the long side. You shouldn't need to scroll unless you have a very low screen resolution.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*heck, I donno?*



JMartel said:


> Me? The photos are a standard 1024px on the *long side.* You shouldn't need to scroll unless you have a very low screen resolution.



Those are great photos! :yes:
But, there is no scrolling needed now... :blink:
No need to scroll on other threads ....:blink:

JPG size is 620 X 480 in "Manage Attachments" window....


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## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

JMartel said:


> Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?
> 
> Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.


If you watch the 1st video posted earlier in the thread, that is exactly what he does. Not saying you are not right cause I can certainly understand the danger and I didn't particularly like doing it that way. I had thought to make several passes over the blade (the nibbling technique) but figured if that was the way he was showing it in the video...must be ok. I will certainly change my method from now on. As I said...just learning. Counting on you guys to give me the correct methods.


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

That video is a pretty poor example. Lots of unsafe techniques there.

Next time, I would highly suggest either picking up a Dado stack and using that to cut your tenons, or making at least a simple jig that rides the fence.










That one is very simple to make, and is much safer to use. Clamp your stock to it and push it along your tablesaw fence. Readjust the fence for each side of the tenon.


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## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

JMartel said:


> That video is a pretty poor example. Lots of unsafe techniques there.
> 
> Next time, I would highly suggest either picking up a Dado stack and using that to cut your tenons, or making at least a simple jig that rides the fence.
> 
> ...


 Any particular recommendation on type of wood to use for this jig?


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## JMartel (Nov 30, 2011)

I typically use plywood for jigs. Any hardwood that is needed is made from whatever scraps I have.


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