# Hand made dovetail saw



## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

His is my start at building a dovetail saw. I am thinking if I make it, I can customize it for my hand. I managed to obtain some steel for the blade from work. I have a second piece if anyone is interested. It is about .020" thick. 

The only thing I am unsure of is how to construct the brass spine. Any tips would be welcome.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

This should be a cool one!

Try here for a folded back:
http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/69

www.backsaw.net has a LOT of info on making saws and is working looking at.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

That first link is actually one of the sites I used in my initial research. A lot of my research has come from project Gutenberg ebooks on early woodworking.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

This is the ebook I am referring to:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20846


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Progress so far. Handle mostly shaped. Showing blade size compared to handle.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

That's looking good! 

Did you use a pattern for the handle, or just freehand it? 

Also, what is the size of your saw blank?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I was looking over the link thinking this looks really familiar and realized I have a print copy but haven't looked at it in quite some time. Good book though!




Drobbins329 said:


> This is the ebook I am referring to:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20846


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> Progress so far. Handle mostly shaped. Showing blade size compared to handle.


Looking good!

Have you decided on folder or slotted yet?


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Haven't decided on the spine at all. Slotted, folded, or laminated. The handle started as a drawing in my sketchbook using existing handles as a reference. I found a basic design I liked and made the angle and size fit my hand and height.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

The blanks are 12x2.25x.015


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

This is where the handle started. Google images for most of the examples. The width and height from a saw I already have that I find comfortable.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Next question : how on earth can I put holes in this steel? I have burned up two drill bits. I even used oil on the second one. Is this stuff really that tough? Do I need to invest in some kind of punch?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> Next question : how on earth can I put holes in this steel? I have burned up two drill bits. I even used oil on the second one. Is this stuff really that tough? Do I need to invest in some kind of punch?


:laughing: Try a file on it and see if it cuts at all. If not it would have to be annealed first - something I have not done on such thin steel. I would be concerned with warping. The other concern is the type of steel. Do you know what it is and what is was originally intended for? Some of the whacky alloys have crazy tempering schedules.

Good luck!


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

No idea on original intentions for the material. Maybe hardened shim stock. But it's thin enough that I feel I could cut it with snips easily. All the drill bits did was make a REALLY shiny indent. Maybe I could put a hole in it with a punch, and then try drilling that? Once there are some irregularities for the bit to bite? This is a little frustrating.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> No idea on original intentions for the material. Maybe hardened shim stock. But it's thin enough that I feel I could cut it with snips easily. All the drill bits did was make a REALLY shiny indent. Maybe I could put a hole in it with a punch, and then try drilling that? Once there are some irregularities for the bit to bite? This is a little frustrating.


Did you start with a small bit at low speed? I only ask because I don't know how much experience you have with metal work. Most "general purpose" bits will not start in then tempered steel without a bit of help.

Punching it would be an option but without a press this may put a warp in the steel that would have to be addressed later with a hammer and anvil.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Ok so, I am grinning ear to ear for a couple reasons. I was able to drill through the saw plate
(barely). Screwed up the kerf to hold the blade. And threw a piece of scrap stainless sheet metal on as a spine. The only thing about the saw I like is the grip of the handle. And I learned a lot. So, I have something to go by next time. 

Enough yammering. Here are the initial results. 


The dovetails on one edge are we're cut on the wrong side of the line. The sloppy ones. 
Only chiseling done was the clean up the bottoms of the cuts along the line. Other than that it was new saw and coping saw. Total cut time on sample: 15 mins. 
Huge improvement in both fit and time over example given In first thread. 

Woooooo!


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

WOmadeOD said:


> You could easily have some brass bar stock slit 3/4 through and epoxy the blade into it.


I don't think you want to epoxy the blade in, it is my understanding that you want to be able to adjust the back and also be able to remove it if you need to dekink the saw at some point. I may be mistaken.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Looks good, Drob! How did you set it? A lot easier and QUICKER working with the right tools, eh?



Gilgaron said:


> I don't think you want to epoxy the blade in, it is my understanding that you want to be able to adjust the back and also be able to remove it if you need to dekink the saw at some point. I may be mistaken.


You are correct sir, no epoxy... in the sockets of chisels either for that matter.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

I filed the teeth freehand with a triangle jeweled file and set the teeth with a small set of needle nose. After all was said and done, I ran a small oil stone down the sides of the teeth to hit the high ones.

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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Womadeod , I can't send pm yet, I would like to find a way to send you that blade blank. Pm me to hammer out the details.

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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

WOmadeOD said:


> I think I'd still glue the blade myself. So long as you look after the saw, it shouldn't need removing. Epoxy can be softened with a low heat, or you could use shellac which could be removed with meths. I think squeezing the brass back on could end up putting the blade out of flat.


Translation for the US readers "meths" is short for methylated spirits, as in ethyl alcohol tainted with methyl alcohol, which is called denatured alcohol in the US.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> I filed the teeth freehand with a triangle jeweled file and set the teeth with a small set of needle nose. [...]


Now that's dedication! :smile: Good job!


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> Translation for the US readers "meths" is short for methylated spirits, as in ethyl alcohol tainted with methyl alcohol, which is called denatured alcohol in the US.


Ah, thanks. I'd have guessed methanol, which I don't think is readily available here outside of a reagent supplier. 

Other readers may have been thinking of Breaking Bad...


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Look into soft soldering....vs Silver or "hard" solder.

It's still used on shotgun ribs......and is very repairable.Similar situation.Thin,precious metal(brrls)...with a thicker pc "swetted" on.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Wouldn't the heating and cooling of the solder temper the blade and/or warp the spine? I still like the idea of a pinned spine. Maybe a brass spine with copper pins for some interesting colors. How have you that have made your own saws from blanks done it? What helped you make your decision? Aesthetics? Performance?

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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

First it's not like you're sweating a water pipe joint.....meaning,it's not the "glob" method.

You would "tin" the brass channel with as little of solder as possible.....It dosen't take much heat to get the solder to flow.At this point the blade is laying on the bench,no where near any heat.

Then you simply have your ducks in a row(quick fixture to hold the rib),wave the torch near the "tinned" rib,you'll see the solder start to "wet",then basically drop the blade in.

Not going to say it isn't a high skill technique.But it isn't rocket science either.Big bonus points go to those with proper fitted joints prior to sweating.......Also,he who uses the least amt of solder,wins.

The main points for it's use is/are.....low heat,and reparablity,well it's also probably how early English backsaws are put together so I reckon traditional "values" could be added to list?


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

BWSmith said:


> [...],well it's also probably how early English backsaws are put together so I reckon traditional "values" could be added to list?


Why are people so willing to make crap up? Why spend all the time to write something that you just pulled out of a furry hat? Go do the damn research, for goodness sake. The FACT is saw spines are not attached with epoxy or brazed or soldered - now or then with only the exception of some cheap gents saws. 

The back is simply along for the ride - it adds rigidity and weight. That is it's only functions. It is not the handle, the blade is not hung on it, it takes no abuse... It's there because a tiny bit of friction is all that's required to keep it there.

THIS is why it it so difficult for me to be a member here - 
http://www.creoleproject.com/2013/10/knowledge-vs-experience.html


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

So what you're saying firemedic is that my saw will function just fine as it is without a fancy looking spine? I started this endeavor for a functional tool. Not a showpiece. Other than the sloppy pins in the handle, it works fine this far. A little tweaking and it will work perfect. I have discovered there is a slight twist in the spine from when I rolled it over. 

Thank you everyone for your input. I am calling this project a success. Maybe my next one will be prettier.

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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> So what you're saying firemedic is that my saw will function just fine as it is without a fancy looking spine? I started this endeavor for a functional tool. Not a showpiece. Other than the sloppy pins in the handle, it works fine this far. A little tweaking and it will work perfect. I have discovered there is a slight twist in the spine from when I rolled it over.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your input. I am calling this project a success. Maybe my next one will be prettier.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


Yes, form follows function - with tools especially. I have personally used some beautiful tools that weren't worth a flip to use. Contrary to popular believe the very earliest of back saws featured iron backs - not brass. Brass is preferred because it add more weight than iron. Iron or steel is still heavier than the composite spines (that I don't care for) on Veritas back saws. 

If it works, it works. It's tough to truly evaluate a tool if you don't have anything to compare it to - however it goes without saying that your saw is 10x better than the coping saw you were using. 

Nothing chaps me more than fellows telling another how to do something when they themselves have never done it or telling someone what tool they need when they do not own one nor have they ever used one. THAT is the downfall of online forums. As an extension of that %95 of the crap on youtube is so far off in left field it's incredible that people are actually naive enough to thing it's right . 

For some reason people think making a video makes the information right. It doesn't matter if you record it - it's still horribly wrong. Highland woodworking's tool review videos would be an excellent example of this. What are they thinking?


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Decided on a spine. No pins. Counter sunk Allen head bolts. Two pieces of 1/2 inch wide steel with a step milled in each side to pinch the blade. I have access to a mill at work. So it will only take me 10-15 mins. I was under the impression it needed to be brass to look good. I will just put brass plugs over the bolts.

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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Dang Firemedic maybe you should lighten up on the steroids?

I was presenting the idea as an alternative method from early saws that I've used.....nothing more nothing less.Don't think I ever said it was the "only" way to do it?

The fact that you are such an expert on all manners of handtools escaped me.....for that I'm truly sorry.You just continue your fine work as an instructor.....


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

BWSmith said:


> Dang Firemedic maybe you should lighten up on the steroids?


Real mature.




BWSmith said:


> I was presenting the idea as an alternative method from early saws that I've used.....nothing more nothing less.Don't think I ever said it was the "only" way to do it?


No, you were trying to push him into doing something that you have never ever done and obviously know nothing pertinent about. 




BWSmith said:


> The fact that you are such an expert on all manners of handtools escaped me.....for that I'm truly sorry..


Now you know - looky there!... even smart fellas can learn something here.




BWSmith said:


> You just continue your fine work as an instructor.....


Sure will - and you QUIT pulling crap out of your ear to feel like 'you so smart.' 

If people did 1/2 as much reading / learning / testing as they do here pulling bs out of their derrière this would be a productive online community.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Subscribed. :smile:


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Can we NOT turn this into a flame war? If you don't agree with a suggestion or know why it would not work, then say so. Keep your personal issues to yourselves. I joined this forum to learn and maybe someday contribute. I also joined because it appeared civil. Can we keep it that way?

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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

Drobbins, that sounds kind of neat to have allen headed bolts holding a two piece back. If you don't cover the bolt heads it'd be removeable, too, which compared to the easy of swapping out a classic backed saw might even mean you could swap blades for rip vs cross cut, just for fun. If it were me, I would consider that to use as a design aesthetic. Kind of like how some Lee Valley tools look like futuristic takes on very old tool designs.


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

All I could find were button Allen heads. Ended up a lot taller than the handle, but it's stiff now and tracks straight in the cut. 

Another thing I learned, leaving my practice teeth on the end with no set works wonders for starting the cut. (Think 20+ tpi). The rest are more aggressive. The first 1-2inches at the tip are tiny, as I was getting the feel for the spacing. I just jog it back and forth a little till it bites across the thickness, then hog down to the line. 

As a whole, it doesn't look like much, but it works better than I ever could have hoped for.

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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Drobbins329 said:


> As a whole, it doesn't look like much, but it works better than I ever could have hoped for.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


That's the only thing that matters!:thumbsup:


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Almost done, some finishing and polishing. On the left, is me trying to show the straight tracking. I went with copper because I didn't have any brass that large. But, I'm happy with it. With such a heavy spine, all I have to do is guide it. I don't have to press into the cut at all.

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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Drobbins329 said:


> Almost done, some finishing and polishing. On the left, is me trying to show the straight tracking. I went with copper because I didn't have any brass that large. But, I'm happy with it. With such a heavy spine, all I have to do is guide it. I don't have to press into the cut at all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


I think it turned out well and it sounds like it is quite functional. Good job :thumbsup:


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## Drobbins329 (Oct 11, 2013)

Thank you everyone who helped me piece this together. Some of it in unconventional, but still fully functional. Great learning experience. I still have that saw blank if anyone else wants to give it a go. I'm located in the USA, all I ask is that you pay postage on it.

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