# Question on gate construction



## johnpemberton (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi,

Hope some of you guys can answer this question. I'm finishing my fence made with PT pine and am now ready for the gates.

If I build the gets with PT pine (still a little moist) am I asking for trouble? The plan was to build two 6' x 4' gates out of 2x6 with full m&t corners, m&t cross brace, 45" corner braces. the frame is then covered with 1x4 slats for a scalloped fence look matching the fence. The all corners and m&t joints will all be double pined with oak dowels and glued with TBIII. 

The oldest part of the new fence (6 months) has dried ok with only one slat slightly warped (looks good and I'm happy so far). The fence will be painted with exterior opaque stain to match the house. 

The fence is 6" posts, 2x4 rails 1x4 all material , slats screwed down with construction fasteners and hangers.

Don't want the gates to warp / shrink and look like crap after a year or more.??

any advise welcome!!

JP :thumbsup:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

​


We have an introduction section where you can say a few words about yourself. If you fill out your profile in your "User Control Panel", you can list any hobbies, experience, occupation, or if retired…from what, or other facts. 

The gate construction sounds OK.












 








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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

JSP

It you don't mind my asking. 

How did you find this site?
Are you planning on hanging around and participating or is this just a one time question you need answered?
One time question is great. I was just wondering.

As to your question. Wet is probably okay on a gate. Biggest problem with gates is sag. Try not to make it too heavy and use something besides a butt joints. Also don't rely on all those steel angles and plates to hold it from sagging. Those are good for looks and not much more. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I think your basic plan is OK. My only concern is that the 2x6 use may make the gate too heavy. I would think 2x4 would be sufficient. 

In gate construction I always use plate hurricane hangers for reinforcement. Never had a sag problem. I have two gates that are 7'long by 6'high. Those are on a boat pad (driveway beside the house) and I use rollers on the outer ends. Thereby eliminating any sag. My personnel gates are 4' wide by 6' high.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If your pressure treated wood is still wet there will be considerable shrinkage as it dries. I think there is a good chance you will have some warpage with it. I think I would stack the wood up with stickers between it and wait until July to build the gate.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> I think your basic plan is OK. My only concern is that the 2x6 use may make the gate too heavy. I would think 2x4 would be sufficient.
> 
> In gate construction I always use plate hurricane hangers for reinforcement. Never had a sag problem. I have two gates that are 7'long by 6'high. Those are on a boat pad (driveway beside the house) and I use rollers on the outer ends. Thereby eliminating any sag. My personnel gates are 4' wide by 6' high.
> 
> George


George
What are plate hurricane hangers?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the physics of a hanging gate*

Unless the outboard end of a swing gate is supported by a wheel, you should understand some physics. The weight of the gate itself plus any additional weight applied by personnel or a sleeping cat need to be accounted for.

Let's start at the top hinge. The hinge screws will want to pull out from the weight, assuming the joints on the gate itself maintain integrity. Speaking of joints, that's the next issue. The joints must maintain their position OR the gate will sag. The gate itself is a square or a rectangle which relies entirely on the corners to maintain structure, which is why most reinforcing brackets and braces are used in the corners.

A diagonal across the corners will immediately prevent any sagging BUT it may not suit the design. Now what? Vertical slats can be screwed all across the horizontals if the design calls for them.
So each slat should have at least 3 screws per top and bottom to prevent sagging. The diagonals withing each 3 screw pattern although very short, will help brace the overall gate. Repeated small diagonals will make the gate sag resistant. The screws may want to break or shear off unless well seated and of sufficient diameter. Drywall screws are fairly thin shanked and are not the best although I have used them myself and many of the gates I've built.

If you make half laps or other structural joinery in the corners, that will also make the gate sag resistant. Glue and screws in the corners will help secure the joints.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> George
> What are plate hurricane hangers?
> 
> Al
> ...


 Hurricane hangers 

Maybe my use of the term hurricane hanger was wrong.

What I use is just a flat plate with nail holes. I buy it in the same store section that has the hurricane hangers.

George


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

If the current boards satisy you after 6 months likely the gate will be fine.

I would never build a timber gate without diagonal cross bracing unless I was running on a wheel on a solid surface. Even then Id prefer a diagonal brace. From the bottom corner on the hinge side to the top on the swing slide.

Averything said by woodnthings covers it well. fixings and joint strength are the biggest thing

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> Hurricane hangers
> 
> Maybe my use of the term hurricane hanger was wrong.
> 
> ...


I guess your not going to tell me.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

As I looked at your response. I didn't see what you had written. For some reason the bottom post on my IPad is blank. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> I guess your not going to tell me.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


I thought that I just did. Are you not able to read the post?

George


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## johnpemberton (Aug 15, 2010)

*gate / arbor design questions*



woodnthings said:


> Unless the outboard end of a swing gate is supported by a wheel, you should understand some physics. The weight of the gate itself plus any additional weight applied by personnel or a sleeping cat need to be accounted for.
> 
> Let's start at the top hinge. The hinge screws will want to pull out from the weight, assuming the joints on the gate itself maintain integrity. Speaking of joints, that's the next issue. The joints must maintain their position OR the gate will sag. The gate itself is a square or a rectangle which relies entirely on the corners to maintain structure, which is why most reinforcing brackets and braces are used in the corners.
> 
> ...


thanks - FYI, when the gates are built, they will have full M&T joints at all four corners, glued and pined w 2 or 3 1" oak dowels. A diagonal 2x4 from the lower post corner to the upper latch corner is possible - or a horizontal 2x4 mid point w 45 degree diagonals in all corners, bisket joined w glue and screws.

The hinges (at least three per gate) will be extra heavy pintels w/24" straps bolted thru the gate. a wheel at the end to support the gate (if needed) is just an admission of design failure - IMO. 


The vertical 1x4 slats are a match to the fence design with a scallop cut top. Vertical slats are double screwed at each contact point. 

Am trying to come up with a plan for a curved arbor top to grow a vining flower or grape. Perhaps rebar or something to arch over the gate opening. Looking for suggestions


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

My biggest advice is to consider growth of plant. Most will oviously be on the outside of the arch. How much do you think will be on the inside. If you think 4" then make your arch 8" (4" each side) wider than the opening so your plant does not encroach on your entry. 

You mayu think it look funny to start with but once your plant is established it will look sweet.

Rebar is fine. getting a smooth bend can be a challenge.

You could thread timber spacers onto the bar. Say you use 1/2" bar and 5 bars at 6"centres.

Timber spacer = 4 x 6 + 4

at 28" long come in 2" from each end amd drill a 1/2" then space the other holes in between. I would suggest you have one near the ground, one where the bend start, one inbewteen. Then one at the top of the arch and pending on size space them in between.

Thats just one idea ... there are lots of ways

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## johnpemberton (Aug 15, 2010)

DaveTTC said:


> My biggest advice is to consider growth of plant. Most will oviously be on the outside of the arch. How much do you think will be on the inside. If you think 4" then make your arch 8" (4" each side) wider than the opening so your plant does not encroach on your entry.
> 
> You mayu think it look funny to start with but once your plant is established it will look sweet.
> 
> ...



Thanks

Not sure what you mean by timber spacers? Photos?

JP


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I don't understand either...*

What arches, plants, growth, rebar...etc.?
Maybe a misplaced post meant for a different thread?




JSP said:


> Thanks
> 
> Not sure what you mean by timber spacers? Photos?
> 
> JP


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> What arches, plants, growth, rebar...etc.? Maybe a misplaced post meant for a different thread?


Try the last sentence where JSP quoted you 

As for timber spacers I just mean a straight piece of wood mabe 2 x 2 with 5 holes in it. You have a number of these to make what looks a bit like a ladder only in this case 5 uprights and the 'rungs' (timber spacers) would be spaced as you decide.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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## mobilepaul (Nov 8, 2012)

JSP said:


> thanks - FYI, when the gates are built, they will have full M&T joints at all four corners, glued and pined w 2 or 3 1" oak dowels. A diagonal 2x4 from the lower post corner to the upper latch corner is possible - or a horizontal 2x4 mid point w 45 degree diagonals in all corners, bisket joined w glue and screws.
> 
> The hinges (at least three per gate) will be extra heavy pintels w/24" straps bolted thru the gate. a wheel at the end to support the gate (if needed) is just an admission of design failure - IMO.
> 
> ...


My advice (opinion), if you are going to use M&T joints is to use KDAT for everything. It will be dry and you won't have to worry about the joints shrinking after they've been hanging a while. Only issue with that is you should primer/stain the KDAT before you build and paint/stain additionally as soon as it's built. Greatly lessens the chances of warping and twisting. Keep in mind that heavy gates will, over time, cause inadequate gate posts to begin to lean in. Put the posts in deep and use over-sized posts (6x6 or 8x8). I also like using metal for the gate structure and then attach wood to that. Just my opinion...

https://www.google.com/search?q=bui...2JaWEygGviYCIAw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1902&bih=891


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> I thought that I just did. Are you not able to read the post?
> 
> George


Thanks I can now.

L

Nails only hold themselves.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't have much to add here, except this: Make sure you run the diagonal braces the right way! They should go from the bottom hinge to the opposite top corner. There are three gates at my new house, and some idiot ran the diagonals on every one the wrong way, so all three sag horribly. They're about two years old.

The idea is that you should run it down to the bottom hinge, so that the weight of the outside edge is pressing against the hinge; that transfers the weight to the solid post, and reduces sag. If you run it the other way (top hinge to opposite bottom corner) all it does is add weight to the unsupported end, and make it sag faster.


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## johnpemberton (Aug 15, 2010)

amckenzie4 said:


> I don't have much to add here, except this: Make sure you run the diagonal braces the right way! They should go from the bottom hinge to the opposite top corner. There are three gates at my new house, and some idiot ran the diagonals on every one the wrong way, so all three sag horribly. They're about two years old.
> 
> The idea is that you should run it down to the bottom hinge, so that the weight of the outside edge is pressing against the hinge; that transfers the weight to the solid post, and reduces sag. If you run it the other way (top hinge to opposite bottom corner) all it does is add weight to the unsupported end, and make it sag faster.


Thats good advise!


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I can't tell you how many sagging gates I've seen with the diagonals run the wrong way. And how many people I've talked to who said things like "I don't understand why my gate sags! The brace is supposed to stop that!"


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

JSP said:


> a wheel at the end to support the gate (if needed) is just an admission of design failure - IMO.


In some instances, a wheel works great. It might be a design failure if not used.



















.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

JSP said:


> a wheel at the end to support the gate (if needed) is just an admission of design failure - IMO.


Depends on the design. I've seen swinging gates that were upwards of 15-20 feet wide. In that case sure, you could use a suspension bridge design, or a couple hundred pounds of braces and turnbuckles, or make it out of I-beams... or you could just stick a wheel on the end, and call it a day. In a case like that, it's cheaper, faster, easier, lighter, and less prone to failure. I'd call that a design success, myself.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the physics comes into play ...again*



amckenzie4 said:


> I don't have much to add here, except this: Make sure you run the diagonal braces the right way! They should go from the bottom hinge to the opposite top corner. There are three gates at my new house, and some idiot ran the diagonals on every one the wrong way, so all three sag horribly. They're about two years old.
> 
> The idea is that you should run it down to the bottom hinge, so that the weight of the outside edge is pressing against the hinge; that transfers the weight to the solid post, and reduces sag. If you run it the other way (top hinge to opposite bottom corner) all it does is add weight to the unsupported end, and make it sag faster.


You want to have the diagonal in "compression" rather than tension. The diagonal running from the outboard upper corner to the lower hinge will do this and transfer the weight to the bottom hinge as state above. *The opposite way will put the diagonal in tension.* If properly positioned, wood bearing against wood, the diagonal will not put the fasteners in shear where they will loosen and pull out overtime.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*Stated Simply*



amckenzie4 said:


> I don't have much to add here, except this: Make sure you run the diagonal braces the right way! They should go from the bottom hinge to the opposite top corner. There are three gates at my new house, and some idiot ran the diagonals on every one the wrong way, so all three sag horribly. They're about two years old.
> 
> The idea is that you should run it down to the bottom hinge, so that the weight of the outside edge is pressing against the hinge; that transfers the weight to the solid post, and reduces sag. If you run it the other way (top hinge to opposite bottom corner) all it does is add weight to the unsupported end, and make it sag faster.


+1. :yes: The above explanation is to the point. No need to make this confusing. Restated...the top of the brace board is on the latch side of the gate and the bottom is on the hinge side. 


















.


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## chuckha62 (Mar 27, 2014)

^^^^ What these guys said about the direction of the diagonal bracing. I've seen way too many gates done the wrong way. It makes me chuckle and shake my head when I see it, but I guess it's just not obvious to some people.

I took a different tack on the last several gates that I built. I now build the frames out of 1"x2"x.063 wall steel tube. Once the frame is complete, I attach the wood (usually 1"x6" redwood) with 1/4"-20 carriage bolts. No more sagging gates.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

One point: wooden gates, in the weather, WILL shrink, and expand, and shrink, and expand. You can't get around that. But they DON'T have to look bad in the process.


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