# I need finishing info, please.



## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm building a stepstool. According to my BIL, it is mahogany. All I want to do is put on a durable coat that will show the grain. No paint, no stain. Since it is a stepstool I'm looking for something hardy. Any and all input welcome. TIA.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There is any number of different finishes you could use. Assuming you don't have the means of spraying the simplest and most durable finish you could use would be an interior oil based polyurethane. Given the color you are doing consider an oil based polyurethane will have a slight yellow tint to the finish initially and over time will yellow more and more. If the yellowing is a problem you might use a water based polyurethane. It won't show the grain as well but if you would wipe the wood down with a natural stain or boiled linseed oil it will make the grain pop like the oil based poly. Since water based poly is acrylic it will remain clear. 

Let us know if you have the means of spraying. There is some more options.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I do have a HF HVLP set of guns that are still new in box. This may be an opportunity to learn to use them. Thanks for your post.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WesTex said:


> I do have a HF HVLP set of guns that are still new in box. This may be an opportunity to learn to use them. Thanks for your post.


If you have the means of spraying the most durable finish you could use would be a conversion varnish. An easier finish to do you might consider a pre-catalyzed lacquer. You seal the stool with a vinyl sealer and 20 minutes later sand it with 220 grit sandpaper. Then spray two coats of lacquer on waiting 30 minutes between coats. After the second coat dried 30 minutes it would be dry enough to handle. Let it dry overnight and it would be ready to use.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Im with Steve, I would use 2 coats of a high solids sealer, then 2 coats of a pre cat lacquer.

2 coats of a conversion varnish will give you a finish just like higher end kitchen cabinets. Of course, either of these finishes will have to be sprayed.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks for the info. Where might I find these materials of which I have not heard. Sherwin-Williams? Woodcraft? Other? We have a small hardware store within 25 miles. SW is 70. Anywhere else is 3hrs +. I could search the net. 👌 Any brand names to recommend? Thanks again Steve for your response, and for yours, Randy.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

After rumination I realized that asking you to do my homework is overstepping. I'm sure I can learn about these materials with some www help. Then, if I have questions, I'll come back & ask. Thanks for the help so far.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WesTex said:


> Thanks for the info. Where might I find these materials of which I have not heard. Sherwin-Williams? Woodcraft? Other? We have a small hardware store within 25 miles. SW is 70. Anywhere else is 3hrs +. I could search the net. 👌 Any brand names to recommend? Thanks again Steve for your response, and for yours, Randy.


What real paint store is near enough to you? These products like precat lacquer and conversion varnish are more industrial items. Small town paint stores and your hardware store tend to sell home maintenance products. You might talk to them and see if they can order these products for you. Otherwise you might be confronted with ordering it yourself. This would come with a hefty hasmat fee. Most all paint companies have their line of these products. If it comes down to ordering it you might try Mohawk Finishing Products.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Abilene is closest at 70 miles. I've never had good luck locating smaller quantities of anything not consumer oriented there. Lubbock is next at 125 miles. Then there is the Metroplex - three & a half hours to the western edge. 
I think maybe I'll go with your first suggestion instead of spraying, and look into spray materials the next time I'm in Lubbock, Ft Worth, or Austin. I'll be in Austin in October and plan to browse the new Woodcraft location while there. 
Thanks again for helping a newbie.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WesTex said:


> Abilene is closest at 70 miles. I've never had good luck locating smaller quantities of anything not consumer oriented there. Lubbock is next at 125 miles. Then there is the Metroplex - three & a half hours to the western edge.
> I think maybe I'll go with your first suggestion instead of spraying, and look into spray materials the next time I'm in Lubbock, Ft Worth, or Austin. I'll be in Austin in October and plan to browse the new Woodcraft location while there.
> Thanks again for helping a newbie.


We have been discussing precatalyzed lacquer. In your situation where you are a long distance from a supplier you might consider talking to the paint store before you go. Precatalyzed lacquer has the hardener in it when you buy it so it normally has a shelf life of about six months. You might see if you can get the finish and hardener separately. Another option might be a fully catalyzed lacquer. A fully catalyzed lacquer you add hardener to the lacquer as you use it. Once mixed it has a shelf life of about eight hours but unmixed has a shelf life for years. This would give you the ability of keeping more of the stuff for a longer time.

If you come as far as Ft. Worth I could tell you where there is a store east of Dallas that sells Mohawk Finishing Products.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

The fully catalyzed lacquer may be the way to go. I'll talk to Ray at the hardware store in Sweetwater about it. Maybe he can include it in his order. I would like to learn more about finishing. Thanks for this tip.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WesTex said:


> Thanks for the info. Where might I find these materials of which I have not heard. Sherwin-Williams? Woodcraft? Other? We have a small hardware store within 25 miles. SW is 70. Anywhere else is 3hrs +. I could search the net. 👌 Any brand names to recommend? Thanks again Steve for your response, and for yours, Randy.


If you decide to go with Sherwin Williams, here is the precat I would use, and you can probably call the store and have them order it for you. T77F38 will give you around a 20 sheen/gloss look. The T77F37 will give you around a 40 sheen, I wouldnt go any higher for what you are doing.

Here is the PDS for this product that will give you all the information you need to know to be able to use it:

http://hearsweb.sherwin.com/docs/viewDocuments


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

The link I posted above will not work, so here is the info:

SHER-WOOD® Catalyzed Lacquer
(Precat) is a fast drying, high performance,
conversion lacquer for the general
wood finishing market. After catalyzation,
it provides 6 months pot life as a
precat lacquer. 

Mixing Ratio:
1 gallon Lacquer
1.5 oz Catalyst, V66V22
Pot Life: 6 months
Package Life:
uncatalyzed 2 years
catalyzed 6 months 

Reduction: Product is normally applied
without reduction. If reduction is needed to
optimize application, use 5-10% HAPS
Compliant Lacquer Thinner R7K320. To
retard, use either MAK R6K30 at 5-10%,
EEP R6K35 at 2-5% or Butyl Cellosolve
R6K25 at 1-2% by volume.
Conventional Spray:
Air Pressure ................................ 35-60 psi
Fluid Pressure .............................. 6-10 psi
Airless Spray:
Pressure ............................. 1500-1800 psi
Tip ........................................... .011 - .013"
Air Assisted Airless:
Air Pressure ................................ 20-30 psi
Fluid Pressure ........................ 500-900 psi
Tip ........................................... .011 - .013"
HVLP: Binks Mach I
Atomizing Pressure ........................... 9 psi
Fluid Pressure ................................. 12 psi
Cap/Tip ........................ 97AP Blue Max/94
Cleanup:
Clean tools/equipment immediately after
use with HAPS complying lacquer thinner,
R7K320. Lacquer thinner K120 or K22
may also be used, but are not HAPS compliant.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Randy, excellent information. As it turns out there is a Sherwin-Williams in Abilene. I was just apprised about an hour ago that I should go to Abilene tomorrow for some Personal business, so I'll go by there as well. 
I really thank you for going to such trouble. As is often expresses, this is a great site.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WesTex said:


> Randy, excellent information. As it turns out there is a Sherwin-Williams in Abilene. I was just apprised about an hour ago that I should go to Abilene tomorrow for some Personal business, so I'll go by there as well.
> I really thank you for going to such trouble. As is often expresses, this is a great site.


Any time. :thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Randy, can you order the precat without the hardener mixed so he can keep the stuff longer. I'm thinking since he is a long distance from the store he might get a case and add hardener to one gallon at a time.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Randy, can you order the precat without the hardener mixed so he can keep the stuff longer. I'm thinking since he is a long distance from the store he might get a case and add hardener to one gallon at a time.


Yes, this pre-cat actually comes uncatalyzed, so he will have to purchase the catalyst along with the precat lacquer and mix it himself. Not a big problem, and its better to do it that way in the long run as you can just mix up what you need. He can have them mix it for him if he chooses to do so, but I would rather mix it myself.

Uncatalyzed material has a 2 year shelf life, while the catalyzed material has a 6 month pot life with this T77 pre-cat line.

Since its a stool he could probably get away with using and catalyzing only 1 quart instead of catalyzing a whole gallon......so he would only use .375 ounces of catalyst to a quart.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Yes, this pre-cat actually comes uncatalyzed, so he will have to purchase the catalyst along with the precat lacquer and mix it himself. Not a big problem, and its better to do it that way in the long run as you can just mix up what you need. He can have them mix it for him if he chooses to do so, but I would rather mix it myself.
> 
> Uncatalyzed material has a 2 year shelf life, while the catalyzed material has a 6 month pot life with this T77 pre-cat line.


The reason I asked is the Mohawk lacquer I buy it's already mixed. It's usually fresh but already mixed and dated. In the OP's situation it would be better to buy more and store it. The outlet I buy from is located where I drive by anyway. 

I agree it would be better to add the hardener yourself or at least at the time of purchase. Every once in a while I have some that gets old and I have to throw it out. It kind of curdles up like spoiled milk. Some of it I rarely use like a #10 sheen I keep in a refrigerator to extend the shelf life.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

You guys keep talking! This is better than a classroom.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I would bust a gut if we had a Mohawk salesman here to offset the SW ads.

Al


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The reason I asked is the Mohawk lacquer I buy it's already mixed. It's usually fresh but already mixed and dated. In the OP's situation it would be better to buy more and store it. The outlet I buy from is located where I drive by anyway.
> 
> I agree it would be better to add the hardener yourself or at least at the time of purchase. Every once in a while I have some that gets old and I have to throw it out. It kind of curdles up like spoiled milk. Some of it I rarely use like a #10 sheen I keep in a refrigerator to extend the shelf life.


You can also extend the life by adding 300% of *uncatalyzed *material back to the catalyzed material.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Al B Thayer said:


> I would bust a gut if we had a Mohawk salesman here to offset the SW ads.
> 
> Al


Im not telling anyone to buy SW products, Im just suggesting, as I suggested General Finishes material in this thread:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f8/introduction-help-coating-wood-food-serving-tray-101906/

Anyone on this site can buy what they want, and I wish them good luck.

What would you suggest he put on the stool that would gave him better protection than a precat???? If you say a *hand wiped finish*, I will bust a gut. :laughing:


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I made it to Sherwin-Williams & talked (listened mostly) quite awhile to a rep. As a result I decided to shelve the idea of using a precat or fully catalyzed lacquer. For the quantity I would have to buy and it's price, coupled with my inexperience, I don't believe it's a good fit for now. Especially considering the small project size. I do believe I'll give it a whirl later when I have a larger project for my shop, such as shelves and cabinets. 
I do thank you Steve and Randy for your valuable input. Be assured I will keep it for reference when I do venture into the cat lacquers.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are patient and very clean about it you could do a nice finish with polyurethane. It would actually be a better finish than the lacquer. It's just so much easier and quicker to use the lacquer. Poly takes many hours to dry to touch and gives ample time for dust and bugs to get into the finish. If you could rig up a place to make a tent with polyethylene plastic you could spray what you need and get out of there and allow it to dry. Spraying poly in your shop it would drift around the room and stick to everything. If you have the space you might rig something like a greenhouse in your back yard to spray in. Just don't do the spraying in the hot sun. That could create bubbles in the finish.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I may try the polyurethane. It seems to be readily available in smaller quantities. 
I think I'll look into rigging a spray booth of some kind inside my shop. I have plenty of backyard, but a greenhouse type setup in a West Texas summer is not appealing.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WesTex said:


> I may try the polyurethane. It seems to be readily available in smaller quantities.
> I think I'll look into rigging a spray booth of some kind inside my shop. I have plenty of backyard, but a greenhouse type setup in a West Texas summer is not appealing.


I had no way of knowing what kind of property you have. I'm in the Dallas area but I have a lot of shade on my place.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If you are gonna spray, I would just use 2 coats of sealer and a lacquer. If you are gonna brush on a finish, use poly. You can apply 2 sealers and a lacquer and be done within 2 hours. Also, the quicker drying time prevents dirt and trash falling onto your project, where if you dont have a proper area to spray when using poly, you just have to pray nothing lands on it. I hate using poly myslef, even spraying it.

A single coat of polyurethane takes eight to 24 hours to dry thoroughly. You can never reconstitute polyurethane once it has hardened, lacquer you can, and in my opinion, lacquer is alot easier to fix and repair. 

I think for a stool, lacquer is all you need anyway. Lacquer is the finish that is on all consumer furniture. Table tops use precats, kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanity's use conversion varnish.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you can use rattle can spray lacquer*

I use Rustoleum avaiable at Meijers but there are all sorts of brands.... :yes:











http://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...fr=ytff1-gl-gen1&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-006

On other smaller projects, I use MinWax Fast Dry Poly. Goes on nice and dries fairly quickly:

I use the satin:


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Steve-I'm a country boy. My back yard is a cotton farm. I have a three acre farmstead with trees around the house, but my shop is in an open area. I


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Oops, I brushed the send button 😡. 
I was trying to say that shade is too far from my compressor. In these triple digits I'm not too sure the shade would help. 

Randy-I'll consider the lacquer. I really like the idea of a faster drying tough finish. 

Wood things-I can get both brands of finish in Sweetwater, and it's only a half-hour drive. I've never heard of the supplier you mentioned. Are they just in Houston area, or a larger chain?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Those finishes woodenthings suggested are available at places like home depot, lowes and even walmart.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Right. The "local" stores are Walmart & an Ace hardware. Walmart is hit-or-miss on any given day. The hardware store is much more dependable. I'll see what they have. Thanks again to all for the help. 
Woodnthings-autocorrect messed up your handle in the post above. I didn't proofread.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Hello all. I'm finally back in the Grouch Cave after too many days of absence. All the holiday visitors are gone and SWMBO is leaving tomorrow for a few days. So no distractions. 

Now the questions. The first regards sanding my cabinet doors to prep for lacquer. To what level do ya'll (I'm from Texas, after all.) sand the inside faces of the doors? I've seen plenty of discussion on sanding the exterior parts, but not for the seldom or never seen parts. So what do you do?

If it matters the finish will be SW ProMar Lacquer Sealer, then ProMar Hi-Bild Lacquer Gloss. I will spray. 

Second question. Advice is to sand with the grain, but that doesn't seem reasonable to me when using an ROS since it spins. What are your opinions?

TIF - Ron


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WesTex said:


> Hello all. I'm finally back in the Grouch Cave after too many days of absence. All the holiday visitors are gone and SWMBO is leaving tomorrow for a few days. So no distractions.
> 
> Now the questions. The first regards sanding my cabinet doors to prep for lacquer. To what level do ya'll (I'm from Texas, after all.) sand the inside faces of the doors? I've seen plenty of discussion on sanding the exterior parts, but not for the seldom or never seen parts. So what do you do?
> 
> ...


Sand with the grain with the orbital, and I wouldnt sand the cabinets over 180 grit with the orbital. Then shoot the sealer, wait till its dry to the touch, then shoot another coat. When it drys, *scuff* *sand* *lightly* the entire cabinet with 280 grit or 320 grit. Then apply 1 coat of the topcoat and thats it. If its not slick enough for you, scuff sand again with 280 and apply another coat of topcoat. Done.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Okay Randy, so I read your post as saying you sand everything to the same level even though the interior and back will not be seen very often. I see many cabinets and casework pieces sanded to a lesser amount than the exterior. Is it just a matter of preference, or just a way to shorten production time. I suppose I'm asking: "Does it matter other than aesthetics?".

About the ROS. I don't want to come across as snippy, but I already know that general practice is to sand with the grain. I just wanted to know why it mattered, since the pad spins. Keep in mind I'm new to this. There's probably one or more good reasons to which I am completely oblivious.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

WesTex said:


> Okay Randy, so I read your post as saying you sand everything to the same level even though the interior and back will not be seen very often. I see many cabinets and casework pieces sanded to a lesser amount than the exterior. Is it just a matter of preference, or just a way to shorten production time. I suppose I'm asking: "Does it matter other than aesthetics?".
> 
> About the ROS. I don't want to come across as snippy, but I already know that general practice is to sand with the grain. I just wanted to know why it mattered, since the pad spins. Keep in mind I'm new to this. There's probably one or more good reasons to which I am completely oblivious.


Well first, anything you plan on putting a finish on, maple for example, should not be sanded over 180 grit, especially with a ROS because its too easy to polish the wood with the paper on the ROS. If you are gonna spray the inside of the cabinet, then it should be sanded with 180 as well.

As far as the ROS, even though its "spinning" you still need to sand with the grain. If you dont, ROS's will leave cross-grain marks in the wood that looks like little squiggly lines. The only time it doesnt really matter is when the wood has a good build on it, but even then you have to be careful.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.


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## WesTex (Jan 5, 2014)

I finally finished the wall cabinet and got it installed. Made from 1/2" BB ply and ash. Finished with lacquer after much trial and error. If I do it right, here's a photo. 

Many thanks to all for the guidance.


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