# slow modulated vibrations in a new table saw (Craftsman 22114)



## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

Folks, anybody have seen that? 

OK, I purchased a new Craftsman 22114 (on a clearance, new in a box, $320, which was nice of Sears) about a week ago, and took my time assembling it. I am not new to table saws (my old one was Delta contractor for 11 years), and have plans to improve what I've got (basically, 22114 must be a good saw, a heavy baby, trunnions on the base, cast iron all over, etc), but have a few design flaws, like left-right symmetrical fence rails, and some downright cheap and faulty parts, like miter gauge), but I have plans and ideas how to deal with that later.

However, a quite unexpected thing happened: While in the beginning the saw was running smooth, yesterday it suddenly showed a wild-horse character:

as I start with the blade lifted all the way up (3-3/8"), and gradually lower it, at some critical point (blade at 2" from the table) it went into terrible cycling vibrations. That is, for a few seconds it runs smooth, and than starts literally shaking for another few seconds, then goes back to regular mode, and so on. The total cycle is about 7 -- 8 seconds. I tried it with two other blades (both heavier than the stock blade) -- the same effect. Ultimate test -- I took the blade off, and let the motor running with an empty blade shaft -- the same effect! Apparently, something is wrong at the motor level... (It is 1.5 HP, but the motor itself is the heaviest one I've ever seen for such a power...) 

My subjective feeling is that a motor break (apparently there is something like that in that machine, for I see as it kicks into action when I turn the power off) somehow touches the breaking wheel (or whatever it is), and then get disengaged again. Does this sound stupid? But, anyway, forget about my idea; what are yours? Anybody has experienced this wild-horse attack of a saw? If yes, what was the reason? if not, any wild ideas?

I've requested a visit by a repairman from Sears (I paid $41 for 2-year protection plan; will see how it works..), but not quite sure whether the guy will be experienced enough, sigh... Anyway, would be helpful to have some expert opinions before his visit (will be on Thursday this coming week...)

OK, thanks for your thoughts & experience:yes:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Remember this...*

From member 
Ed'sGarage 
Creator of Sawdust







*Interesting news!* 
I got a call from the Grizzly tech department yesterday. They said that some(got that? some?) of the motors on the G 0490 have an electro-mechanical problem that causes the motor to generate electric after it is powered down and the rpm's are returning to zero, causing the offending shudder(vibration). They said that although they didn't think this would harm anything(I think it will) that they would be willing to send me a new motor. Needless the say, the gracious person that I am, I accepted the new motor w/o any further persuasion. They did however say, that they weren't sure that a new motor would correct the problem, but they thought it would. The tech rep also indicated that he did not think that the belt tension had anything to do with this shudder. BTW, in deference to Grizzly, I was able to hold the phone to the motor to let them hear exactly what the motor assembly was doing. Also, note that they were more than accomodating and got back to me exactly when they said they would. I am anticipating the delivery of the new motor and hoping that it will correct the shudder. I'll let everyone know next week. :smile: 
Then this:









*talk about egg on my face!* 
I recently purchased a 0490 - 8 inch jointer from Grizzly that appeared to have motor problems(motor was shuddering on shut down). Grizzly sent me a second motor that ran well for a few days and seemingly started to have the same problem as the first motor, so I called them again. They did some searching and let me know that the first motor, upon return, was tested and found to be OK and that they were going to send me two new pullies and a new belt. When the first motor was making it's historic shudder, upon inspection I noticed the pulley was loose. Soooooo, I thought the shudder caused the pulley to loosen up. Well, today I started dismantling the second motor and found the pulley loose again. Knowing there probably was no problem with the motor, I tightened the pulley and GUESS WHAT?....the shudder disappeared. Obviously the loose pulley caused the shudder, not the other way around. Apparently, had I taken the time to go through all the steps, I might have found that in the beginning and saved everyone a lot of grief. Oh, well..you know the saying, haste makes s__t! At least my jointer is now running OK, Grizzly helped me trouble shoot the problem and everyone lived happily ever after....I hope!


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

*hey, one down...*

Hmm... pulley... interesting already... will try to check it right away! Both of those pulleys are hard to reach on that machine... but will try. Thanks!


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

while your checking the pullies :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:check that the belt is aligned


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woody woodturner said:


> while your checking the pullies :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:check that the belt is aligned


Hey, guys, thanks! checked both -- pulleys (yes, this is correct spelling:yes --they seem to be real tight -- and the belt -- it is alligned ( I know, with those new v-polly belts you've got to be careful...).

Ok, two down... any new ideas?


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

yea check moyor mounts:thumbsup:


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

mmmmotor :laughing::laughing:


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

yea i have a lot of trouble with them pollys:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

It'd be good to be able to rule out the belt itself. Running the motor without the belt is one option but it won't tell the whole story, but replacing the belt would.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

knotscott said:


> It'd be good to be able to rule out the belt itself. Running the motor without the belt is one option but it won't tell the whole story, but replacing the belt would.


Good idea, I've thought about that too, but will have to try it tomorrow (otherwise, my neighbors will kill me on a spot -- I have my shop in my condo-unit, can you believe that?:shifty. Will report later.


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

A couple more wild a$$ ideas...... _After_ you check that the motor is securely bolted to the mounting plate _and_ you remove the belt and run the motor by itself, _if_ you still have problems take a look at the arbor and/or the trunnion. Take the blade off and wiggle the arbor with your hand. Is there excessive play as in a bad bearing? Probably unlikely with a new saw but you never know. It could have slipped by quality control without getting caught. If the arbor is tight, how is the trunnion attached to the base? If it's bolted on, could a bolt(s) be loose? Worth a look. That's all I got. Good luck and let us know what you find.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

While everyone else has tried to help you with the problem. I would like to add this about the protection plan.Your right the service tech probably won't know much about it. He will probably try to fake it and check with (STACK) which is there tech support ( A guy reading from a book). I would check the type of plan you have because if they cant fix it let them try most plans after the fourth try they have to give you a new item (saw in this case).

I just went through this with a upright freezer I purchased for my mom. they tried to feed her some bull and the (STACK) guy tried to say she had to live with it because there was no problem. However being trained in refrigeration I knew they were full of it. In this case I had to make a call to the executive office and complain but they delivered a new freezer (upgraded to a much nicer one at that for free).

I'm not knocking all service techs because they do have some good ones, but I have run into some that don't have a clue.


Hopefully you get it fixed before they get there but if not just play the game and get a new saw.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

*the saga goes on...*

All right, the lates news from front line...

Took the belt off -- the motor purred like a kitten; OK, it is rulled out. Checked the belt -- it is fine; cleaned it just in case, put it back. Checked all relevant screws -- they are tight. Same with trunnions. Arbor assembly remained the major suspect. Pulled and pushed it by hands in all possible directions -- discovered a tiny play in blade raising assembly -- tightened it up as far as it went...

The damned cycling vibrations stayed...:furious: Well, the saga continues; stay tuned:shifty:. 

Woodthings, woodturner, knotscott, johnK, thanks a lot, folks; great feedback! I start feeling like that full-of-ideas rabbi faced by dying chickens from that old joke...:laughing:

marine-Rick, thanks for your advice on protection plan; that is what I suspected all along... Well, will have to play my hand in their game, sigh...

Cheers,
Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Questions*

Are you tightening the tilt and raise lower locks?
Does it make any difference locked or unlocked?
Does the motor have a "brake" to slow it down?
I have the 22124 saw. When I get a chance, I'll hook it up and see what mine does...although it's a different motor entirely I suspect.
I'll let you know what I find.  bill


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

just an idea is the brake rubbing one side :smile:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I don't remember my 22124, or any of my belt drive induction motors having a brake....is it built into the motor?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*My 22124 has a shut down shudder*

Same type of saw, poly groove "V" belt, but runs smooth and just after I hit the Off switch I hear a click , the motor slows and then a brief shudder, then it stops. That's all the info I have. :blink: bill


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

if it hasnt got a brake there could be a problem .have you cut heavy timber in it If it looses a bit of power the starter capacitor might still be engaging do you know an electrician :wallbash::wallbash::thumbsup:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

*new week -- new ideas....*

Thanks for a new crop of ideas:thumbsup::yes:

ww-turner & knotscott: I thought about that brake too in my orig. post, but by now I am not quite sure. If the shuddering after you hit the OFF switch (reported by woodthings and seen by me too) is any indication of the brake acting up, then the brake is there. How it works, have no idea. It may then be part of malfunctioning during the ON operation. On the other hand, when I freed the motor off from the rest of the system (by taking the belt off), it really purred like a happy kitten; may this be an indication that the brake isn't a guilty party?

Bill w-things: about shuddering -- see above. Re# your question about tightening the tilt and raise lower locks, it is frankly unclear to me what you mean; but I did tightened up what the instruction call lock-nut and eccentric sleeve to remove a tiny play in a raising assembly. And yes, I keep tightening those 2-prong-handle nuts that lock the hight and tilt of the blade during the operation. This affect the vibrations slightly (toward improvement), but not substantially; the vibrations are still there.

I keep tinkering with the saw, but am running out of substantive leads, sigh:huh:

Thanks again,
Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Locks*

Your saw may be different but mine 22124 has "T" handles in the center of the elevation and tilt cranks to lock the angle and blade height. I would lock them both and see if the shudder is better or worse.
Just throwin' that out......We're runnin' out of ideas here.:blink: bill

Quote:
Bill w-things: about shuddering -- see above. Re# your question about tightening the tilt and raise lower locks, it is frankly unclear to me what you mean; but I did tightened up what the instruction call lock-nut and eccentric sleeve to remove a tiny play in a raising assembly. And yes, I keep tightening those 2-prong-handle nuts that lock the hight and tilt of the blade during the operation. This affect the vibrations slightly (toward improvement), but not substantially; the vibrations are still there


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Your saw may be different but mine 22124 has "T" handles in the center of the elevation and tilt cranks to lock the angle and blade height. I would lock them both and see if the shudder is better or worse.
> Just throwin' that out......We're runnin' out of ideas here.:blink: bill
> 
> Quote:
> Bill w-things: about shuddering -- see above. Re# your question about tightening the tilt and raise lower locks, it is frankly unclear to me what you mean; but I did tightened up what the instruction call lock-nut and eccentric sleeve to remove a tiny play in a raising assembly. And yes, I keep tightening those2-prong-h andle nuts that lock the hight and tilt of the blade during the operation. This affect the vibrations slightly (toward improvement), but not substantially; the vibrations are still there


Bill, the "2-prong-handle nuts" are exactly those that you called "T-handles"; as you can see from my previous reply, I did it, but saw no substantial changes. 

Have to note that from my examination of both 22124 and 22114 side by side in the same store a few weeks ago convinced me that they have basically the same chasis and a lot of things are the same, except for bigger motor and Biessemeyer fence (and hence rails) on 22124. 

At that point my intention was to buy 22124 (reconditioned), but after looking and trying it carefully, I realized that, no, it isn't for me. Due to a few health problem, it would be unwise for me to handle the Biessy fence -- too heavy; and I usually take down the fence and than move it back pretty often... Another things, also related to my problems, is that I feel uncomfortable to have a too heavy saw to move around -- and I need to do it often, my shop is too small. But exactly because the innards for those two were the same, and 22114 is still heavy enough to dampen vibrations -- I decided to go for it. Well, now 22124 is having its revenge, I guess:icon_cool:... 

You know, funny enough, the physics of various oscilltions/vibrations, especially nonlinear ones, in particular their instabilities, have been my research field in the very beginning of my research activity (long ago, and far away..:yes; apparently they didn't like what I've done to them, so they are coming back with vengiance...:laughing:


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

bad vibes man bad vibes:thumbsup:


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

what about the blade nut and flange could thay be damaged ?:thumbsup:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woody woodturner said:


> bad vibes man bad vibes:thumbsup:


man, this is a good one! (vibes=vibrations:thumbsup


flange & locking nut -- nope, they are fine; besides, too small momentum...


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

*could it be the blade?*

I'm a newbie at this so don't take me seriously ... has this problem happened with more than one blade mounted on the saw?

Perhaps there is something off-balance in the one you're using?


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

duncsuss said:


> I'm a newbie at this so don't take me seriously ... has this problem happened with more than one blade mounted on the saw?
> 
> Perhaps there is something off-balance in the one you're using?


A good thought, but this has been ruled out from the very beginning (see starting posts) -- not only I changed blades, but took the blade off completely. "something off-balance" -- yeh, but this is the same as to say "something is wrong":laughing:. Of course, "something" is...


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

I told you not to take me seriously :shifty:

Just to confirm: my (re-)read of your first post says this shuddering only happens when the blade is lower than 2" cutting height ... correct?

If that's the case, I'd suspect there is a deformity in the trunnion assembly (the hinge or hinge pin) that makes it tight when the blade is fully raised but loose when the blade is lowered beyond a certain height.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

duncsuss said:


> I told you not to take me seriously :shifty:
> 
> Just to confirm: my (re-)read of your first post says this shuddering only happens when the blade is lower than 2" cutting height ... correct?
> 
> If that's the case, I'd suspect there is a deformity in the trunnion assembly (the hinge or hinge pin) that makes it tight when the blade is fully raised but loose when the blade is lowered beyond a certain height.


Duncan,
sorry for taking your post lightly:shifty:. The hinge is a possible suspect, true; I've looked at it before, but will be looking again, thanks. The fact that the tension on the transmission train is getting lower when the blade is lowered down, also points to a belt as a suspect. I've checked it before, will do it again, but who knows, it may happen that after laying around in the Sears storage for perhaps couple years or even longer, the belt got "frozen" in its original shape -- not a likely thing with V-poly, but then again, for a long storage time, nobody knows...
Al


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

ouch my head hurts using brain to much :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woody woodturner said:


> ouch my head hurts using brain to much :thumbsup::thumbsup:


No pain, no gain, man:yes:. Not to worry; it is my convoluted English:thumbdown:; will try to improve on that.


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

naw its just me trying to figure your saw out:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

AlWood said:


> ...... The fact that the tension on the transmission train is getting lower when the blade is lowered down, also points to a belt as a suspect. I've checked it before, will do it again, but who knows, it may happen that after laying around in the Sears storage for perhaps couple years or even longer, the belt got "frozen" in its original shape -- not a likely thing with V-poly, but then again, for a long storage time, nobody knows...
> Al


Al, the first thing I did immediately after I got my saw was order an extra belt.....just in case they become hard to get, or if mine breaks.
I recommend you do that also. You can then change out the belt and see what happens. If as you said, it shudders whether the belt is on or off then there are only 3 things left: arbor, blade, and something is loose like a trunnion bolt. 
Have you checked the arbor for concentricity /runout?
A dial indicator on the arbor shaft, but lacking that, mount your best quality blade and clamp a stick so it just kisses the teeth. Observe if it shows any gaps while you slowly rotate it. Check the face of the blade using the same method if you don't have a dial indicator.
Granted, the blades' concentricity comes into play but for now we're looking for anything that could be the issue. My hunch is an arbor bearing or shaft.....:blink: bill


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Al, the first thing I did immediately after I got my saw was order an extra belt.....just in case they become hard to get, or if mine breaks.
> I recommend you do that also. You can then change out the belt and see what happens.


Bill, good idea, I'll order a spare belt; wouldn't hurt anyway. I am already missing that simple yet so effective link belt; I have it in most machines in my shop...



woodthings said:


> If as you said, it shudders whether the belt is on or off



No, no, no! This is the point (I've emphasized it a few times): when the belt is off, the shudder goes completely away; the motor when left alone, makes very little, "happy" noise.



woodthings said:


> then there are only 3 things left: arbor, blade, and something is loose like a trunnion bolt.
> Have you checked the arbor for concentricity /runout?
> A dial indicator on the arbor shaft, but lacking that, mount your best quality blade and clamp a stick so it just kisses the teeth. Observe if it shows any gaps while you slowly rotate it. Check the face of the blade using the same method if you don't have a dial indicator.


I did the concentricity check (by doing it directly on flange, with the blade off -- the shuddering happened with AND without the blade); everything seems to be OK.



woodthings said:


> Granted, the blades' concentricity comes into play but for now we're looking for anything that could be the issue. My hunch is an arbor bearing or shaft.....:blink: bill


Yes, it could be. I keep pocking here and there (hate already myself for doing that:shifty, and discovered a funny thing. When I prop the motor up from below (by placing a few boards below the motor, when it is in the upper position, and then slowly lowering it down by a height adjustment wheel, till the motot touches the top board) -- I noticed that before the belt gets too loose and slips off the pulleys, the system gets rid of the shudder. I can also reproduce this effect by placing my hand at the motor "buttocks" (i.e. the grid covering the fan), and pushing the motor sufficiently hard toward the belt end.

This, and the measurements of the cycling period of shuddering , makes me convinced that what I see is so called "self-sustained oscillations" (or simply "oscillations") of the motor and its suspention, assisted by a "positive feedback" ("positive" is a bad word here:huh via the belt and arbor. And at that, it is so called "relaxation oscillations", one of the worst kind; similar things happen in electronic amplifiers and oscillators, and even in lasers, and even in the oscilltions of luminosity of some stars (and then, who knows, perhaps the entire universe...:yes. (Sorry for falling into a techno-crap-talk here, cannot stand the temptation:yes:; on that territory I am a bit better than with a plain English... :laughing

Well, anyway, it is all mostly putting labels on things, for it still doesn't solve the problem yet. However, as with any self-sustained oscillations, one of the way to handle them is to put in some extra damping into the system. I'll find some sheet of sufficiently dense rubber foam and will try to somehow jam it in between the back wall of the cabinet and the suspending brace of the motor. 

When/if anything else fails (which would be a shame, for I am usually sort of persistent guy:shifty, I'll try to get a replacement cabinet/with-all-its-innards from Craftsman. I wish it wouldn't happen; the damn thing is so heavy...:shifty:

Thanks again.
Al


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

start it up in the shop if it shakes rattles and rolls leave it there:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woody woodturner said:


> start it up in the shop if it shakes rattles and rolls leave it there:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I will, woody, I will...:laughing:


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## woody woodturner (Jul 9, 2010)

:hammer::hammer::hammer::tank::tank::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

OK, the saga started more than a month ago, and I went through a lot of efforts, exploration, experimentation, taking the saw apart, ordering this part and that part, having two visits by a repair-man (who was hopelessly incompetent at least with table saws), and all that with frustrating results -- the slow cycling and violent shaddering (with roughly 10 second cycle) was there no matter what I did... A few times I decided I've got enough of that crap and should return the saw back to Sears, yet something kept me going... (well, plain stubborness, I guess :wallbash.

This morning I made my routine by now visit to my saw, and tried a new trick... It worked!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:See, the cycling period was too long for any rotating part (arbor, motor shaft, belt, pulleys, etc). So, I thought, there is another part that may have an oscillation period of that duration (or at least of the same order of magnitude) -- a huge and heavy motor which is almost free hanging under the trunnions, sort of a slow pendulum, so when a natural tiny vibration due to its rotations show up, they may serve as a "pumping" to feed the self-sustained cycling of the motor/pendulum (sorry for technical terms from the theory of nonlinear vibrations...).

Well, to make long story short -- I looked into the suspension system of the motor -- it is hanging below trunnions and is attached to them by a "hinge" with two bolts acting as pins, one of them with a heavy spring that serves as a little "pillow" to smooth out the motor motion, and another one -- simply serving as a pin. After loosing up their nuts, and playing with different pressure on them, I found out that the second bolt/pin was the bad guy: its nut was screwed up so tight, that it made the entire system very rigid, sort fo a good quality oscillator with a mass combining both motor and trunnions, and that is the last thing you want there! I made it sufficiently loose (by doing that I essentially introduced a huge damping factor into the system) -- and BOOM !!! -- my saw got quiet and sounding like a nice kitten!!!

Now, this thing must be pretty generic for all the saws with similar structure (Craftsam 22114, 22124, 22116, Ridgid saws -- clones of that, original Steel City, etc). Of course, the main reason of my troubles was a poor assembling procedures at the factory and poor quality control:thumbdown, but whatever -- one may also want to know what are the factors behind this or that malfunctioning. My hope is that my troubles and solution would help some of you in your dealing with similar trouble if any:smile:...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Gotta give you credit for sticking with it! Kudos on your patience and a job well done! :thumbsup: Thanks for the update.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

knotscott said:


> Gotta give you credit for sticking with it! Kudos on your patience and a job well done! :thumbsup: Thanks for the update.


Well, knotty, thanks, your credit is well taken:yes:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

duncsuss said:


> I'd suspect there is a deformity in the trunnion assembly (the hinge or hinge pin) that makes it tight when the blade is fully raised but loose when the blade is lowered beyond a certain height.


Duncan, essentially, you were right in that old post of yours :thumbsup:; the hinge was a problem; I simply didn't understand your post at that point. I came to that in my own (and loong:laughing way..


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Al you get a promotion!*

To Doctor of Sub Harmonic Unequal Wave Form Vibrations....
Glad to hear your success and don't dare tell the repair guy!
I wonder if there is another saw on the planet that had this issue? As the owner of a 22124 I appreciate your diligence in find the source of the problem. 
I am curious as to your work experience/background, as you seem pretty knowledgeable about things of this nature. Fill us in? :thumbsup: bill


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

AlWood said:


> Duncan, essentially, you were right in that old post of yours :thumbsup:; the hinge was a problem; I simply didn't understand your post at that point. I came to that in my own (and loong:laughing way..


_*You *_didn't understand my post? What makes you think I did? :blink: :smile:

It's been a very long time since my undergraduate class on "The Physics of Vibrations and Waves", these days I rely more on guesswork and keeping it vague so I can claim I knew the answer from the beginning.

Glad you found your way to the solution -- hope you enjoy many years of resonance-free sawing!


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

Guys, in all the excitement of solving that damn problem, I forgot one thing, and want to do it right now: I most greatly appreciate time, williigness to look into the problem, and expertise of all of you who were on call to help. Bill woodthings, woody woodturner, knotscott, JohnK007, rrbrown, Duncan duncuss, as well as Bob Wingard (from my other related thread, "*acceptable runoff of 10" table saw blade?"), -- thank you, guys! *

Bill woodthings: " To Doctor of Sub Harmonic Unequal Wave Form Vibrations..."" -- either you've seen my curriculum vita, or you have the same magician power with other people minds:blink: as with your machinery: the title of my PhD (done 45 years ago) was "Subharmonic oscilltions of high order in bla-bla-bla..."; first papers on that stuff published almost 50 years ago... As to my experience/background, you can look into my little passage, "A story of a black sheep" in the thread:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/what-do-you-do-living-32/index26/#post137022

feel free to be highly critical...:thumbdown::smile:. I am a physicist (and a theorist at that:blink the same (I guess) as Duncan duncusus here; in the long forgotten past back in my old country that doesn't exist anymore, I used to do all kind of nonlinear oscillations, vibrations and waves theory (hmmm... still do it with light, lasers, X-rays, etc...) Duncan, with your undergraduate class on that stuff, do we by any chance have the same alma-mater at LongPonds?:blink:
Cheers,
Al


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Holy Catfish Batman!*

Quote:
Bill woodthings: " To *Doctor of Sub Harmonic Unequal Wave Form Vibrations..*."" -- either you've seen my curriculum vita, or you have the same magician power with other people minds:blink: as with your machinery: the title of my PhD (done 45 years ago) was "Subharmonic oscilltions of high order in bla-bla-bla..."; first papers on that stuff published almost 50 years ago... As to my experience/background, you can look into my little passage, "A story of a black sheep" in the thread:

Al. I just made that title up outa' thin air  ...sounded good to me, official like. What the  do I know, I'm justa' a MFA in ID, art student for short, some teaching experience. Raised on a farm, left alone with tools, took a lot of cars and stuff apart when I was young. I learned to drive on a '36 John Deere GP, it kinda vibrated every other engine cycle. I ride a Harley these days, it vibrates a lot, has 2 cylinders, makes loud noises about the same as before. :yes: This was a fun thread, great bunch of guys here. :thumbsup: bill


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

AlWood said:


> Duncan, with your undergraduate class on that stuff, do we by any chance have the same alma-mater at LongPonds?:blink:


That would have been nicely circular, but no ... I took Electrical Engineering at Imperial College, London. The class I mentioned was taught by H. J. Pain, who by strange coincidence had written a book with the title "The Physics of Vibrations and Waves". (Buying that book saved students the effort of taking notes during his lectures.)

Al, if I was any help I'm glad. The people on this forum were friendly and helpful to me when I first posted questions here, and since one seldom gets the chance to "pay it back", I try to "pay it forward".

Best regards --

Duncan


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

duncsuss said:


> That would have been nicely circular, but no ... I took Electrical Engineering at Imperial College, London. The class I mentioned was taught by H. J. Pain, who by strange coincidence had written a book with the title "The Physics of Vibrations and Waves". (Buying that book saved students the effort of taking notes during his lectures.)
> 
> Duncan


Oh, how didn't I recognize your British sense of humor from the very beginning?:thumbsup: So you moved from London to Boston... well, near Harvard Square Charles River looks a bit London-like, but the city, especailly near MIT... hmm... I cannot figure out whether condolences or congratulations are in order...:laughing.

Yep, I've seen the book by Pain; lucky you -- you've got an easy ride...:smile: My graduation place was deep in the continent, right between Europe and China... 30+ years ago I've got lucky to get a so powerful kick in my rear, it gave me enough momentum to land in the place where you are right now... In the beginning, it was Francis Bitter Natl Magnet Lab at MIT -- it doesn't exist anymore; gosh, the time running so fast...

My best,
Al


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Al. I just made that title up outa' thin air  ...sounded good to me, official like. What the  do I know, I'm justa' a MFA in ID, art student for short, some teaching experience. Raised on a farm, left alone with tools, took a lot of cars and stuff apart when I was young. I learned to drive on a '36 John Deere GP, it kinda vibrated every other engine cycle. I ride a Harley these days, it vibrates a lot, has 2 cylinders, makes loud noises about the same as before. :yes: This was a fun thread, great bunch of guys here. :thumbsup: bill


Bill, the title was good; and no need to play a country boy :smile: about your teaching experience: you've apparently been a teacher for a long while, and a very good one (I am surmising that from your detailed and thorough posts). As far as subharmonics and John Deers: from your description

> it kinda vibrated every other engine cycle

one can see clealy that you've got a 2-nd order subharmonics hapenning right under your "woodthing", which keeps carrying that memory till these days...:laughing:


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## Norton (Aug 27, 2010)

I am in the process of setting up the same saw in my shop. We will see what happens when I fire it up for the first time.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

:smile:


Norton said:


> I am in the process of setting up the same saw in my shop. We will see what happens when I fire it up for the first time.


Norton, basically it is a good saw, but with a lot of design, production, and assembly flaws. Most of them are curable, but this needs thinking and a lot of elbow grease:yes:, and of course some wise advice:smile:. If (hopefully) you get no trouble with vibrations, be prepared to see that the blade is not true with miter guides, so don't install the wings before you make sure that you fixed that problem. (Be also prepared to see that there is not enough movement for the bolts that hold the table, so you may need to unscrew all of them and widen up the holes in the upper brace of cabinet; a good round file will take care of that.)

When you make the blade true with respect to miter guide, make sure that it stay true for 45 degree tilt (if not, you may need to tinker with trunnions; this is separate issue...)

When you attach the wings, it is very likely that they don't make flat surface with the table. If this is true, you may need to prepare a lot of shims (food cans to the rescue:smile, and perhaps control their thickness by hammering them on whatever you can use as an anvil.

The list may go on and on, so keep me posted, and we can exchange issues, ideas, and solutions.

Good luck:thumbsup:

Oh, DO NOT rise the blade up to the highest position in the beginning!!!! There is a ridge at the bottom of the table that come too dangerously close to the arbor pooley and the belt on it; it may chew up the side of your belt and deflect or damage the pulley!!! Check the situation out with your fingers under the table when the power if off, and the arbor is pulled all the way up (for that, take the blade off)


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## Norton (Aug 27, 2010)

Got my craftsman set up. Crosscut and ripped my first wood today. 
I really like the oversize on off switch. I was also very pleased with the quality of the top. It was better machined then my 20 year old Delta contractors cast iron top. 
The saw runs smoothly and quietly. Better then my Delta.
Only time will tell, but so far, so good.


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## run4priz (Mar 8, 2011)

I've had this same saw for about a year and it made the same noise you described. I had just decided to live with it but your fix has made me reconsider. I'm going to check out your fix on mine this week. I've really grown to hate that noise!


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

run4priz said:


> I've had this same saw for about a year and it made the same noise you described. I had just decided to live with it but your fix has made me reconsider. I'm going to check out your fix on mine this week. I've really grown to hate that noise!


Hey, rub4priz, good luck with that! Hope you've read carefully my post #37 in this thread. If not the same reason, could be another one; you've got to be patient; don't give up. The saw is OK, but it is a bit of a half-baked product. Either way, please report back your progress (or curses:laughing.


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## run4priz (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the reminder AlWood. I purchased the saw in Jan 2010. That was my first woodworking machine purchase. After several hours of assembly and set-up, making sure things were assembled correctly, accurately, etc etc., I started it up only to hear the noise you described. I've played with the belt, blade, arbor and came to the same results you did. Happens with or without a blade, different blades, but not with the belt off. I haven't tried all of the other items you did. Hopefully your final fix will be the ticket for mine and save me some time on experimenting.

The noise has made me regret purchasing the 22114 when there are some many other good ones (other brands) out there for comparable price. I'll let you know what I find out this weekend.


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## Jonwilliam (Apr 9, 2011)

*22124 vibration*

I have the 22124 and have been plagued with this 'cyclic vibration' since I bought the saw in '06. One day I thought... I HAVE to get this figured out and found this post.

I tried the forementioned fix of loosening the bolts that hinge the motor. It worked...kinda. It took the majority of it away and made the last few seconds of shut down vibrate/cavitate even worse. But while running it wasn't AS bad but not vibration free. 

I tried several combinations of loosening one bolt more that the other, then the other way, then one bolt/nut 1/4 turn, the other 1/8. And so on and so on. The pulley was out of alignment and due to the setscrew being loose...but alignment didn't help it any. 

I wonder if I can just get a super long bolt or rod to push through the whole way through instead of 2 seperate bolts. I could perhaps hang a chunk of iron for a weight from the hing to help absorb the vibration. Oh yeah, yes...brand new belt not from craftsman. (shipping costs more than the belt..are you kidding me?)


Any ideas?


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

Jonwilliam said:


> \
> 
> I tried the forementioned fix of loosening the bolts that hinge the motor. It worked...kinda. It took the majority of it away and made the last few seconds of shut down vibrate/cavitate even worse. But while running it wasn't AS bad but not vibration free.
> 
> ...


Have you tried to take the belt off and leave the motor free-hanging from the hinge? If it keeps shuddering, you've got a problem with the motor (which was not my case...). If it behaves well, than you still have problem with the hinge; you've got then to keep playing with those two bolts/nuts... The belt may be a problem too, but I am not quite sure of that... (can you try to put on your old belt, "native" to your saw?)


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Very slight bend in motor shaft?

In either pulley?

Since the vibration is cyclical it has to be something that comes into alignment (or misalignment) periodically. 

You have found no vibration with the motor running with no load. Does your machine use the weight of the motor to put a load on the belt? Can you relieve the load partially and see if the vibration changes.

Have you checked for any looseness in the motor shaft? or any other shaft? You might have to use significant force to determine.

Have you tried changing the belt?

Just some thoughts.

George


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## Jonwilliam (Apr 9, 2011)

The condition of my anomoly is as far as I can tell the exact same as the original author of this post and I have tried everything everybody has suggested as well.

With the motor hanging free with no belt there is no vibration and the motor is very happy and quiet. I put on the new belt just a few days ago. It you try to twist or lift the motor up a little with the belt on it subsides. The vibration/cavitation is nearly gone with the new belt...but I want better than nearly gone...I want GONE. 

There isn't any runout on the arbor, the pullys are tight and aligned the very best I can get them. I've pulled and pushed on the arbor shaft and she doesn't budge. Maybe its just one of those things. I'm going to keep tweeking and fine tuning the hinge bolts and the motor mount bolts to get it as good as I can get. Beyond that I'm going to try bungee cords(the heavy duty ones for tarps on semi's) to pull down on the hinge to get this thing to shut up. 

Semperfi


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*many years ago*

I had a Craftsman table saw with the motor hanging out the back on a hinge. The weight of the motor "hanging" was the belt tensioner, but it was adjustable within a range on the 2 horizontal rails. There was a spring washer that kept things snug.
Whether the weight of the motor in this case hanging vertically is that different in principle, I doubt. I would personally go for a more technical solution than a Bungee cord, but that's just me. A piece of soft rubber, or foam packing in compression or a spring possibly acting like a shock absorber. I'm not opposed to using bungees for some things like holding my dust collector filter securely to it's housing. Let us know what you work out. :thumbsup: bill


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

AlWood said:


> Guys, in all the excitement of solving that damn problem, I forgot one thing, and want to do it right now: I most greatly appreciate time, williigness to look into the problem, and expertise of all of you who were on call to help. Bill woodthings, woody woodturner, knotscott, JohnK007, rrbrown, Duncan duncuss, as well as Bob Wingard (from my other related thread, "*acceptable runoff of 10" table saw blade?"), -- thank you, guys! *
> 
> :blink:
> Cheers,
> Al


I'm glad you got it working. I appreciate the thanks but everyone else helped much more then I did, especially since you didn't take my advice and fixed it yourself.:laughing:


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## Jonwilliam (Apr 9, 2011)

The bungee cord did do the trick in making it quiet but I do agree with you that it shouldn't be the end fix. I'll just keep fiddling around with that hinge assembly until its right. I took the nuts and bolts out so I can take them to caterpillar in the morning to get some uber high quality bolts to replace them. It seems that the bolts are a touch too small for the hole. 

Semperfi


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

Jonwilliam said:


> The bungee cord did do the trick in making it quiet but I do agree with you that it shouldn't be the end fix. I'll just keep fiddling around with that hinge assembly until its right. I took the nuts and bolts out so I can take them to caterpillar in the morning to get some uber high quality bolts to replace them. It seems that the bolts are a touch too small for the hole.
> 
> Semperfi


> It seems that the bolts are a touch too small for the hole

Hmm... I'd rather think that too tight bolts would be bad thing to have... but anyway, please let us know about the results...

Good to know the result of your experiment with bungee cord :thumbsup:; this replenishes (at least) my knowledge about damping control in those motor+hinge+load systems...


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## run4priz (Mar 8, 2011)

out of curiosity, did anyone find a zip tie on the motor mount like I did? Don't see a way to attach a picture to this post, but found it odd that I found a zip tie.


just figured out how to post a pic
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/run4priz-19200/albums/zip-tie/


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

run4priz said:


> out of curiosity, did anyone find a zip tie on the motor mount like I did? Don't see a way to attach a picture to this post, but found it odd that I found a zip tie.
> 
> 
> just figured out how to post a pic
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/run4priz-19200/albums/zip-tie/


The spring in your pic came loose in transit on my 22124. I managed to reinstall it, but I'm wondering if someone added that zip tie to hold it in place? Also, IIRC...there's a definite direction for that spring.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

knotscott said:


> The spring in your pic came loose in transit on my 22124. I managed to reinstall it, but I'm wondering if somewhat added that zip tie to hold it in place? Also, IIRC...there's a definite direct for that spring.


You guys talk in a bit esoteric way... What spring? I see something like a spring in my 22114, but I guess it is the same as you'd find in any regular contractor saw with a hanging motor; it doesn't do anything much, and just keeps the mount from flopping around. Anyway, what is a meaning of "...there's a definite direct for that spring..."?

and *run4priz, I haven't seen any zip-tie on my saw. Most likely, that tie isn't supposed to be sitting there forever; perhaps it was there to keep things tight during transportation...*


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

AlWood said:


> You guys talk in a bit esoteric way... What spring? I see something like a spring in my 22114, but I guess it is the same as you'd find in any regular contractor saw with a hanging motor; it doesn't do anything much, and just keeps the mount from flopping around. Anyway, what is a meaning of "...there's a definite direct for that spring..."?


A definite "direction" is what I meant to type, meaning that stem on one end of the spring is longer than the other. I don't recall seeing anything like this spring on any contractor saws. I'd guess its funcion is to keep proper tension on the belt.

Here's the spring as shown by Ron4priz:


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

Looks like that is a torsion spring, intended to increase the resistance against the motor swinging upwards on its hinge.

Al -- if your motor hinge assembly doesn't have a spring like this, maybe that could have been a reason the hinge bolts were over-tightened.

Jon -- is your motor hinge assembly missing this spring? (If you do have the spring, try the motor without it -- it could be making your vibration worse!)

Duncan


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

duncsuss said:


> Looks like that is a torsion spring, intended to increase the resistance against the motor swinging upwards on its hinge.
> 
> Al -- if your motor hinge assembly doesn't have a spring like this, maybe that could have been a reason the hinge bolts were over-tightened.
> 
> ...


Duncan, thanks for the comment, but of course my saw has that spring, as I looked at it (by the way, knot, my Delta contractor saw has even two springs on similar bolts...) True, this spring serves to prevent the motor from upward swinging (I called it "flopping around") -- thanks for good technical description -- and essentially, to prevent the motor from becoming a free-swinging pendulum; otherwise that swinging would make the system more prone to excitation of cycling vibrations. I suspect now that there was a design flaw in making that spring not strong enough. A stronger spring might've been able to be less restricted by those bolts; besides, the sucesseful experiment of Jon Semperfi with a bungee cord sort of confirmed that (a cord acted as an extra spring...), so in his case the spring was still not strong enough to keep an appropriate pressure on motor even with loosen bolts... The string on 22114 looks stronger that those on Delta contractor saw, but then again the motor on 22114 is way heavier that the one on Delta...

I hope the design people are looking sometimes at these forums...

Oh, a bit later: I also think now that the bolts (in combination with the springs) serve a necessary function: the spring alone is an UNdamped spring, so it may still produce vibration (at shifted frequency); so in addition to "flexibly" fixing the motor, it needs to be dampened, and here those bolts come to rescue. Properly tuned bolts would also prevent the motor from shuddering when the power switch is off... A bungee cord would serve well provided it is somehow dampened...


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## Woodlvr (Feb 26, 2011)

Is this a 10" table saw? I looked on Sears website and am not sure. I have a Ridgid R4512 that HD replaced my TS3650 for free because of an arbor problem. I know that one of the Sears 10" is exactly the same unit, but I am having a shaking at times when I shut down, and now sometimes when I start it up. If they are the same maybe contacting Ridgid techs could help you and tap into their knowledge as maybe it was a manufacturing issue. Just a thought.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Woodlvr said:


> Is this a 10" table saw? I looked on Sears website and am not sure. I have a Ridgid R4512 that HD replaced my TS3650 for free because of an arbor problem. I know that one of the Sears 10" is exactly the same unit, but I am having a shaking at times when I shut down, and now sometimes when I start it up. If they are the same maybe contacting Ridgid techs could help you and tap into their knowledge as maybe it was a manufacturing issue. Just a thought.


The Cman 22114 and 22124 are indeed 10" saws, both are/were made by Steel City/Orion (same company that made the former Ridgid R4511).  The Cman 21833 is nearly identical to the current Ridgid R4512...both are made by Dayton to the best of my knowledge, but both are very different from the 22114 and 22124. 

A shudder at shutdown can sometimes be caused by an electrical phenomenon known as regeneration....I don't claim to understand it well, but from what I've read it's an interaction between the motor coils and motor capacitors that occurs once the switch is turned off and the motor is still spinning. AFAIK it's basically harmless and doesn't effect cut quality, but I've read that it can be remedied with a couple of well placed resistors of the correct value range. The vibration at start up could be due to some other cause. I personally don't get too worked up about minor vibrations at startup or shutdown as long as the saw runs smoothly once up to speed...others are less tolerant.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

knotscott said:


> A shudder at shutdown can sometimes be caused by an electrical phenomenon known as regeneration....I don't claim to understand it well, but from what I've read it's an interaction between the motor coils and motor capacitors that occurs once the switch is turned off and the motor is still spinning. .


Perhaps; but in the cases I know about, it was purely mechanical problem. In particular, with that Craftsman 22114, I was able to completely suppress shuddering by tuning that hinge and aligning the belt.


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## Marv Rall (Aug 13, 2010)

*Re: shuddering problem*

I have had a Grizzly 12"--6" combo sander which I have used for12+years. Upon shutting down it shudders briefly, always has--I have learned to live with it. Otherwise it is a fine machine


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## tvman44 (Dec 8, 2011)

The motor pulley on my Craftsman TS kept loosening up so I put some blue lock-tite on the set screw and it has never loosened up again, that was a few years ago.


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