# Joining some black walnut



## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Need to make a 16"x18" square out of 3/4" black walnut. I'm then going to cut the shape of an animal out of it and don't want to be able to see the seem. Should I just glue two 16"x9" together? I don't have a biscuit joiner anymore and I need a strong joint as this will be one of two sides to a step stool. Thanks, Glen


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Match the grain*

To hide the glue line match the grain as best as possible. The grain should look like a complete picture, rather than 2 separate pieces. 
Book matching, resawing from one thicker piece would be best, but maybe not possible.
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/match.html


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## GISer3546 (Jan 30, 2013)

I do jointing with cherry, red oak, and pine all the time. Getting the seam to be... uh seamless is easily done as long as the joining surface is straight and flat, which I easily do with a hand plane. Not sure if you`ve done it before but check to be sure the edge is perpendicular, glue it, and clamp overnight. Clean the face of the seam with your plane and you wont be able to feel it, seeing it will be dependant on the grane. As far as strength the glue is stronger than the wood so biscuits wouldn`t be needed so long as its paralelle with the grain.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks guys, I'll give it a try


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

I make sure my edges are straight, match grain and color best I can, then use cauls. The cauls made a big difference in getting a tight seamless fit. Then I just sand the joint with a high grit. Ruined a lot of wood finally getting this down.

I read somewhere that reversing the end grain is also a good idea, for warping purposes...not sure if it matters doing two boards. Maybe someone has better insight into this.


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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

If you joint the edges true and smooth so the boards fit together with no gaps and you use a good wood glue Like Titebond and you clamp the wood properly, the joint should be stronger than the actual wood grain around it.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Yep, used Tightbond and clamped. You can't see the seem at all. Thanks guys


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Just another question. I used 8 (4 on each side) kreg screws and Tightbond glue for the steps. Do you think that is enough? This is for a child under 50lbs. Here are some pics of it unfinished.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

We'll here it is finished. Any thoughts on if the glue and screws will be enough to support or should I build a stringer into it?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

8 screws per step should provide more than enough shear strength for a 50# load. The only concern that I have is lateral loading and the potential of the thing failing under side loading. I would put a couple of gussets under each step to give more lateral stability.

It looks really good! Walnut has always been my favorite wood


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Wrangler said:


> 8 screws per step should provide more than enough shear strength for a 50# load. The only concern that I have is lateral loading and the potential of the thing failing under side loading. I would put a couple of gussets under each step to give more lateral stability. It looks really good! Walnut has always been my favorite wood


thanks for the info, so that I understand when you say lateral support do you mean a block of wood attached under where the step connects going the width of the step? Or do you mean a support bar going across the middle of the step length wise?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Dopalgangr said:


> thanks for the info, so that I understand when you say lateral support do you mean a block of wood attached under where the step connects going the width do the step? Or do you mean a support bar going across the middle of the step length wise?


I would take a few 3 x 3 x 3/4 blocks, cut them on the diagonal to make right angle triangles. Glue and screw them to the bottom of the steps and sides. Gussets like these will provide lateral strength.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

I gotcha now, thanks!!


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Cute stool. Is it just the picture or does the top step extend out past the bunny toe? Might tip forward.

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

It does extend just under 1/2" past. I was wondering that too and will have to test it out once the finish is done. Hopefully it doesn't, I wouldn't want to tear the top step out and move it rearward at this point.


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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

The red flag I see is in the front feet. Once a person stands on the top step, all the weight gets transferred to those tiny front feet. Where those front legs attach to the main body there is only about 2" of cross grain wood. Any amount of wiggle from the person could cause one of those legs to crack across the grain and the stool would go right over. I would have cut out the design with the wood grain in the vertical position. That would have also eliminated any chance of breaking off the ears, which also have a small connecting area, which is cross grain.

As for the steps, I would cut cleats to be glued and screwed under each step and to the sides. You can cut them about 1" inch shorter so they don't show as much. You could cut or round over the corner of the cleats that hangs in the open just to finish it off better.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

MNsawyergp said:


> The red flag I see is in the front feet. Once a person stands on the top step, all the weight gets transferred to those tiny front feet. Where those front legs attach to the main body there is only about 2" of cross grain wood. Any amount of wiggle from the person could cause one of those legs to crack across the grain and the stool would go right over. I would have cut out the design with the wood grain in the vertical position. That would have also eliminated any chance of breaking off the ears, which also have a small connecting area, which is cross grain.
> 
> As for the steps, I would cut cleats to be glued and screwed under each step and to the sides. You can cut them about 1" inch shorter so they don't show as much. You could cut or round over the corner of the cleats that hangs in the open just to finish it off better.


Oh well, I knew I should have asked for advice BEFORE I made it. I never really thought about the grain issue, to be honest I had a vision in my head and went with it. Should have spent more time on the functionality of it and made sure I gave that adequate thought. Hopefully those little feet will hold, since this is a childs stool im thinking that 50lbs would be the max weight that it will ever have to hold. Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dopalgangr said:


> Oh well, I knew I should have asked for advice BEFORE I made it. I never really thought about the grain issue, to be honest I had a vision in my head and went with it. Should have spent more time on the functionality of it and made sure I gave that adequate thought. Hopefully those little feet will hold, since this is a childs stool im thinking that 50lbs would be the max weight that it will ever have to hold. Thanks for all the suggestions.


Well what the deuce! It's for a child for crying out loud. It's great the way it is. Can it be prefect. Well not if we here have anything to say about it.  Do what you must and throw some polycrapoline on it and everyone will get off your back.

It's really nice.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Well what the deuce! It's for a child for crying out loud. It's great the way it is. Can it be prefect. Well not if we here have anything to say about it.  Do what you must and throw some polycrapoline on it and everyone will get off your back. It's really nice. Al Nails only hold themselves.


Agreed, if you're at all worried about cross grain breakage, drill across the grain of the front legs and glue a dowel in each hole. Then enjoy watching the child climbing on it!!


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

I think it's awesome 

My wife and I made a small footstool for our daughter that she barely ever used and before we knew it, she outgrew it along with a lot of clothes and shoes. 

It may not get used much but it's still awesome.

just for the heck of it, could you dowel or just glue up a horizontal piece from foot to foot on the inside and then maybe a support piece on each side going up to the step? Wouldn't be visually appealing but maybe it would add some support.


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## punkin611 (Sep 17, 2013)

MNsawyergp said:


> If you joint the edges true and smooth so the boards fit together with no gaps and you use a good wood glue Like Titebond and you clamp the wood properly, the joint should be stronger than the actual wood grain around it.


 I beg to differ. Yellow glues are NOT stronger than the wood it's self. Just because when it breaks it has wood on both sides of the joint doesn't mean anything. titebond and their ink have a very soft glue line and do not hold up under stress. That's why you have to joint them very close for them to hold for any length of time. If you want to glue interior furniture use hot hide glue. It has a very hard glue line. Hide glue is so strong is can be used to chip the surface of GLASS. The high end woodworking schools are mostly moving back to hide glue. The old timers were pretty sharp and smart. :thumbsup:


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

The dowel suggestion seems like a winner for me! The wood is 3/4" thick so should I use a 1/2" dowel about 2"-3" long? Or just long enough to go into the larger meat of the wood?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Dopalgangr said:


> The dowel suggestion seems like a winner for me! The wood is 3/4" thick so should I use a 1/2" dowel about 2"-3" long? Or just long enough to go into the larger meat of the wood?


When I use dowels, I usually don't go bigger than 1/3 the thickness of the stock. So in your case 1/4". The length only needs to be long enough to reinforce the weakest part. What your doing is repairing before it breaks!


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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

Please don't get me wrong. Your project is very nice. In all reality, it will probably never break. Having been a furniture maker for many years, I had to make sure that all the pieces I designed and built held up to any and all stress. I had a few pieces come back, ones that had been put through mental hospital, night club, or college dorm use...in other words, tested by gorillas. I know a little bit about how furniture breaks so I was just passing on some advice to you for future projects. 

As for the glue joint that somebody commented on. I have see glued up panels split due to humidity shrinkage in winter, here in Minnesota. Not one of them has let loose or cracked along a glue joint. Fine Woodworking Magazine did a test of several kinds of glue for joint strength, including hide glue and aliphatic resin (Titebond) glue. Aliphatic resin had the strongest holding power.


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## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

MNsawyergp said:


> Please don't get me wrong. Your project is very nice. In all reality, it will probably never break. Having been a furniture maker for many years, I had to make sure that all the pieces I designed and built held up to any and all stress. I had a few pieces come back, ones that had been put through mental hospital, night club, or college dorm use...in other words, tested by gorillas. I know a little bit about how furniture breaks so I was just passing on some advice to you for future projects.
> 
> As for the glue joint that somebody commented on. I have see glued up panels split due to humidity shrinkage in winter, here in Minnesota. Not one of them has let loose or cracked along a glue joint. Fine Woodworking Magazine did a test of several kinds of glue for joint strength, including hide glue and aliphatic resin (Titebond) glue. Aliphatic resin had the strongest holding power.


 
No, I want to thank you for the observation. Like I said, I'm new to woodworking and always have an open mind. This is for a co-workers daughter and you never know, she could be standing on the top step and get excited and jump up and down. A simple pre-fix could prevent me have to repair it down the road. 

Now Im looking into getting one of those self centering dowel jigs. Anyone have any experience with this one? The only disadvantage I can see (if it is one) is that it doesn't do 7/16" and 1/2". 



 "EDIT"** disregard I found the info in another thread, good to use the search feature


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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

I have that doweling jig. It works great for pieces up to about 2" wide, where the dowel is centered. On your rabbit stool, it would work for the dowels at the ends of the steps, but not for the receiving ends in the rabbit body. It would work for the joint when gluing up the panel for the rabbit body, to align the boards, but it is not a necessity, and you might run into a dowel when cutting out the shape, which would look ugly.

The doweling jig is great for cabinet face frames and some furniture situations. There are some other doweling jigs which can be adapted to more uses. I have not used them, though.


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