# Stumped on Table leg joint. Help plzzz!!



## Lvillegas28 (Nov 17, 2021)

Okay I’m still pretty new to this so please be gentle on me.
I’m currently trying to recreate a table leg joint using a 4x4 and I can’t figure out anyway to get the cut. I attached a photo of the piece that I need to cut off. I also attached a photo of look I’m trying to get.

what I need:
I partial corner need to be cut out of the 4x4 for the table top to rest on. The closest way of achieving this cut that I can think of is by using a jigsaw. But the jigsaw doesn’t cut deep enough.
Any suggestions would be great!

thanks in advance!


----------



## Neurotic Tategushi (Nov 15, 2021)

You need a chisel, a very wide one. Also, you should consider using mortise and tenon joints instead of just cutting a big chunk out of a 4 x 4.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

You are trying to save labor by using a power tool.
This type of joinery is most often done entirely using hand tools.
However, some of the cuts can be made "partially" using a table saw, just to get the surfaces straight and parallel with the sides.
The smaller the blade you use, the more surface it can cut without going in too far.
I would use a 7 1/4" diameter blade to start the sides of the notches and to partially cut across the bottom, keeping in mind that you can only cut so far in, so mark your lines boldly and keep from overcutting into them.
A router table will also work to get those side surfaces straight. Those same cautions about going in too far apply.
I suspect you have neither of those machines, so we are back to using a back saw, and some sharp chisels.
Mark your lines using a thin ball point or a marking knife to sever the fibers for a cleaner cut.
The problem is you'll need to do this 4 times!

Best of luck, carry on!


----------



## KI5AAI (Nov 4, 2021)

Chisel would be the best way if you really want this joint. I think you should rethink it and go with mortise an tenon.


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Several ways I of the top of my head:

1) Cut along the lines at an angle with a hand saw, then chisel out the rest. Similar to doing a half blind dovetail. 

2) Hog out the bulk with a Forstner bit, then clean up with chisel. 

3) Set up a jig and use a router.

Tables have to pass the “vacuum cleaner ram test” and this one will fail. You're not creating a joint. It needs some other method of securely attaching the apron. The same effect could be achieved using actual joinery (mortise and tenon) or even dowels would be better than nothing. At the minimum, something backing up the leg/apron junction.

We see this all the time in designer furniture done by people with little ww’ing knowledge. Ana White is one of the worst.


----------



## AwesomeOpossum74 (Jan 27, 2017)

"Stumped" Ha, I see what you did there!



Lvillegas28 said:


> Okay I’m still pretty new to this so please be gentle on me.


Oh, we'll be gentle. Like a dentist to a root canal. ... But seriously, this is a good site. Very informative and inclusive conversations and answers.



DrRobert said:


> Tables have to pass the “vacuum cleaner ram test” and this one will fail. You're not creating a joint. It needs some other method of securely attaching the apron. The same effect could be achieved using actual joinery (mortise and tenon) or even dowels would be better than nothing. At the minimum, something backing up the leg/apron junction.


There's surely some hidden hardware in the shown table. Hopefully more than just glue.


----------



## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

These designs are the downside of youtube. I see lots of "woodworkers" on you tube that know nothing about furniture making, only designing. 
My guess is that the apron/stretchers are attached to the inside of the cut-out area and the table top is screwed down using corner clamps to thye apron. Very crappy design with a short life expectancy.. Anyway, that's my guess.


----------



## KI5AAI (Nov 4, 2021)

If you look at the pic the OP posted...it looks like someone used two 2 x 4's at 90 degrees to make the joint. Look at the vertical line.


----------



## AwesomeOpossum74 (Jan 27, 2017)

KI5AAI said:


> If you look at the pic the OP posted...it looks like someone used two 2 x 4's at 90 degrees to make the joint. Look at the vertical line.


I don't see why that would have a bearing on the joint?


----------



## KI5AAI (Nov 4, 2021)

AwesomeOpossum74 said:


> I don't see why that would have a bearing on the joint?


Because someone might have used a saw (TS SAW) to cut the individual 2 x 4's and glued them up.. Not that it is a good joint. But it could explain why someone was able to do it without a chisel or other methods.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I would use my mortiser..

A forster bit at the drill press followed by a chisel or mortiser..


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I doubt this "newcomer" has a mortiser, which is why I suggested hand tools, BUT I could be wrong?



Rebelwork said:


> Unless I'm reading something wrong, I would use my mortiser..
> A forster bit at the drill press followed by a chisel or mortiser..


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

He could use a drill with a 1/2 or so bit. Anything to eat the bulk of material out.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Are you sure the apron is not butted up to the leg and fastened by a mortise and tenon or dowels?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Looks like the table sits above and rests on the apron. A detail to the build..


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

3 things come to mind...

#1.. do I understand the complete build and it's assembly.
#2.....do I have the power tools
#3.....do I have the hand tools.

These are the things missing when helping.


----------



## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

DrRobert said:


> [...] Tables have to pass the “vacuum cleaner ram test” and this one will fail. [...]


I gotta admit, I had never heard of the "vacuum cleaner ram test" until this morning. The good news is I didn't spill my coffee.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

DrRobert said:


> Several ways I of the top of my head:
> 
> 1) Cut along the lines at an angle with a hand saw, then chisel out the rest. Similar to doing a half blind dovetail.
> 
> ...


Sorry ... didn't see you already replied with the forster bit.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

All of us here would make that joint using the machines and tools WE own, but this fellow is starting out, so we need "to be gentle" and that means putting ourselves in his shoes with the tools he might have.
A hand drill and a Fotstner or spade bit will be just the ticket to remove all that waste.
Then some basic hand chisels, Stanley or others, to pare away the rest down to the lines.
Accurate measuring device with a depth stop like a combination square is a must!
A stiff back saw like a miter box saw OR a pull type Japanese is a common, relatively inexpensive tool. I like the Vaughns at the Depot.

Now the real question is:
*Is this a very strong joint in itself OR do you need additional structure or braces to go with it?*
Maybe not. You can use fasteners to attach the aprons, the horizontal braces under the top, to the remaining portion of the leg joint, BUT they really won't hold very well.
If the design is a recessed top and a leg the protrudes flush with the top, yes, that looks very cool.
BUT how can you make that design and also have it structurally strong?
A while back Lola Ranch, a great member here and fine woodworker came up with a wood brace he posted on a table he made.
I thought it was so cool that I started a Bret's Brace Challenge here and only my buddy scotty, mdntrdr, showedd up for the challenge:








Leg Brace Alternative Method Challenge


http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/best-way-connect-2x4s-like-32744/index2/ Inspired and also perplexed...."scratchin" my head how to make them" by Lola Ranch's brace, mdntrdr and I decided, to post a challenge as to how to make them,from this: This one, actually 2, was done entirely on...




www.woodworkingtalk.com




This brace in combination with some loose tenons or dowels just might do the trick?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> All of us here would make that joint using the machines and tools WE own, but this fellow is starting out, so we need "to be gentle" and that means putting ourselves in his shoes with the tools he might have.
> A hand drill and a Fotstner or spade bit will be just the ticket to remove all that waste.
> Then some basic hand chisels, Stanley or others, to pare away the rest down to the lines.
> Accurate measuring device with a depth stop like a combination square is a must!
> ...


That's not the joint he's making....

Are you looking at the OP's pictures?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

...


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

...
View attachment 432753


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

No, not exactly, but just make the leg flush with the top of the aprons. The point I was making was more about how to strengthen the joint using a brace. These aprons are set in from the outside of the leg like the OP's design:


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Would advise the OP to do a search for "fastening table legs to apron" and click on images, there will be many different solutions for the look that is illustrated.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

He will simply be using a picture frame with legs attached to it.

He showed a picture. I don't know why anyone would change the detail


----------



## bargoon (Apr 20, 2016)

This is how I've always done it.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

FrankC said:


> Would advise the OP to do a search for "fastening table legs to apron" and click on images, there will be many different solutions for the look that is illustrated.


I did this search and saw nothing designed the picture like the OP showed.

If I have time tomorrow I'll do a sample...


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

bargoon said:


> This is how I've always done it.
> View attachment 432759


It's a different design than your picture..


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

bargoon said:


> This is how I've always done it.


Same design, just drop the leg below the top of the apron and extend the apron over the legs. No need to cut into the leg itself. Metal brackets can be used instead of the wood brace, if preferred.




















Diagram showing top view and front view.








Inner view using a metal bracket.


----------



## _Ogre (Feb 1, 2013)

bargoon said:


> This is how I've always done it.
> View attachment 432759


my preferred method as well


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

_Ogre said:


> my preferred method as well


Has nothing to do with prefered method...

Seems like one of those projects many here simply can't recreate...


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> Has nothing to do with prefered method...
> 
> Seems like one of those projects many here simply can't recreate...


HUH? 

the desired look,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the suggested method (post #26 and #29) 
















Granted the proportions may not exactly match because no dimensions were provided. Yet I think we can all agree, the leg sits proud of the apron and below the lower surface of the table top. The "load" bears directly down on the top of the leg. The "side load" is supported exactly as in post #26

This example was just quickly thrown together, better cuts would result in tighter joints. Blind dowels between the leg and the apron may increase strength. The joint "as shown", can be done by a "newbie" wood worker, using simple tools. (I used a table saw for all cuts but they could also be done with a layout line and a hand backsaw.) There has been no wood removed from the leg.


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Rebelwork said:


> Has nothing to do with prefered method...
> 
> Seems like one of those projects many here simply can't recreate...





Rebelwork said:


> If I have time tomorrow I'll do a sample...


Yes, please do. We can all learn by the sharing of different methods used to create the same end product.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

It's my opinion that the aprons should be full width at the leg, no notches, to duplicate not only just the look, but the strength of the original design.
I can't tell anything about the construction or structure from these examples shown or the diagrams above.


Some examples on Google:




__





table leg and apron joints - Google Search






www.google.com


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

........


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

The web has the answer:





Table Apron Kits Ready to Assemble Table Skirt


Table Aprons and Table Legs customized to your table top in 8 different wood types




test.osbornewood.com




You can buy a kit that has the proper joinery already done!

Or make it like this;




__





Building a table






woodgears.ca





Or one of our long lost members here shows how he would do it post 9:








attaching apron to table legs


Hey all. Longtime member and learner, but sadly post very little. I love learning from everyone's amazing projects Well currently I am working on a dining table. It is 60" square and is made out of cherry cut from a friend's field, milled and stick stacked for about 18 years to dry. Most of it...




www.woodworkingtalk.com














And another version post 12:








Any suggestion on how to cut this joint?


I am building a hall table by following the fine woodworking #212, page 27. Now I am working on legs which have kind of one dovetail join with the upper rails as how . Any suggestion on how to cut this joint?




www.woodworkingtalk.com


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

woodnthings said:


> I can't tell anything about the construction or structure from these examples shown or the diagrams above.


It is just a basic "hanger bolt" type of construction as shown in post #26 and #29 and in one of the links you provided.

Inner view using a wood brace/bracket.

















The outer view shows the apron extending above the leg separating the table top from the leg.











 This is the same design element that is featured in the original photo.











The photo from your link;









I did NOT include a mortise because as you have already pointed out in post #12;


woodnthings said:


> I doubt this "newcomer" has a mortiser, which is why I suggested hand tools, BUT I could be wrong?


 =================================
A mortise could certainly be added while still retaining the apron design feature shown in the original photo. That process may be above the tools and skill level of the OP.
=================================
The precut kits shown do NOT allow for the apron design feature shown in the original photo.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Well, I think we've about covered most of the possibilities from a simple bracket with one bannister bolt or lag screw to intricate hand work, stopped saw cuts and mortises.

Maybe just weld it? ... using "weldwood" glue? CNC it from a large log? 3D model it in a wood grain? Ok, I'm being facetious.

It's better to be "stumped" on a woodworking project than cutting down a tree with a chain saw, you think?


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

woodnthings said:


> It's better to be "stumped" on a woodworking project than cutting down a tree with a chain saw, you think?


We are not all stumped. A solution has been provided which includes the desired design elements show by the OP and uses tried and true hanger bolt fastening.
I am sorry you feel stumped.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Dave McCann said:


> We are not all stumped. A solution has been provided which includes the desired design elements show by the OP and uses tried and true hanger bolt fastening.
> I am sorry you feel stumped.


You completely misread my post! Which part of "I think we've covered most of the possibilities" didn't you understand AND I posted several myself. I'm not at all "stumped" .
That was the title of the thread used by the OP.

I was not able to determine from your blue and brown graphic whether the left aprons ran through the legs shown on the left, OR are notched as shown on the right.


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Dave McCann said:


> just drop the leg below the top of the apron and extend the apron over the legs. No need to cut into the leg itself.





woodnthings said:


> I was not able to determine from your blue and brown graphic whether the left aprons ran through the legs shown on the left, OR are notched as shown on the right.


No, the aprons do NOT run thru the legs, they are shown extending over/above the leg in the top view. I already provided an explanation in the text from the post you reference, post #29


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The apron frame is made and rests in the notched leg.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

This graphic does not show them running on top of the leg on the right side. The plan view is not able to show that either. They look like they are notched. There is no explanation accompanying this graphic. It is not clear to me, what the construction is, sorry.



Rebelwork said:


> The apron frame is made and rests* in the notched leg.*


I'm not the only one who thinks either the leg is notched OR the apron may be notched?
Because in earlier post you said "no material was removed from the leg".


Since the OP's photo shows them running through the leg, where the lines are drawn, it would be "safe" to assume that was your intent also shown in the plan view.
The plan view does not indicate depth. The side view does not show hidden lines.



















Here's what the OP wanted to do, in my opinion:


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It's not running through the leg. It's resting inside the leg.

I got this in the original post.


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

woodnthings said:


> The side view does not show hidden lines.


Because there are no hidden lines The other graphic (shown below) in the same post (#29) was drawn to illustrate this fact.








At this point it is quite evident that even a model of the joint whipped together from scraps is insufficient. As I said, the cuts are quite simple, the fastening method is a proven method.

I am truly sorry if you have been unable to follow along.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You have to raise it up 1/8 or more to get a good reveal...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm still not getting it Dave. I am very capable of understanding sketches drawn on perspective as you can see from these, BUT 2 D graphics in various scales and various colors and notches, just don't don't help, at least in my case. 
A wooden mockup shown fully assembled does not show the joinery either. 
Sorry I'm just not following in either case, If you can't understand these sketches, I'll be happy to explain them. 
If you need to make me out as "stupid" feel free to do so, and we'll let others decide ....

I drew a variation on the first sketch showing a partially notched leg which could very easily be done on a router table OR by hand, and removing the waste with a Forstner bit and a chisel:


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> I'm still not getting it Dave.
> I drew a variation on the first sketch showing a partially notched leg which could very easily be done on a router table OR by hand, and removing the waste with a Forstner bit and a chisel:
> View attachment 432848


Your still off the reservation.

Did you look at my picture I reworked of yours?


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Easy to see...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> You have to raise it up 1/8 or more to get a good reveal...
> View attachment 432846





Rebelwork said:


> Your still off the reservation.
> Did you look at my picture I reworked of yours?



Sure, that will work also. Just make the aprons a bit wider to suit for the reveal. You've shown removing all the support from the center off the leg, but personally I wouldn't make it that way. Either way would probably work fine, however.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with the design OP wants..


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Lvillegas28 said:


> Okay I’m still pretty new to this so please be gentle on me.
> I’m currently trying to recreate a table leg joint using a 4x4 and I can’t figure out anyway to get the cut. I attached a photo of the piece that I need to cut off. I also attached a photo of look I’m trying to get.
> 
> what I need:
> ...


What tools do you have to create this?


----------



## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

What the op wanted was a look to match the photo of the finished product. What he drew on the leg was what he thought he needed to do, to achieve that look but did not know how to go about physically making that cut.

=================================
Post number #26 showed how the leg could be attached to the apron, without the need to cut into and remove material from the leg








================================================================
Rebelworks had already pointed out;









Post #29 addressed that issue, by expanding the size and shape of the apron while still using the hanger bolt method of attachment.


























=====================================================================

End result using the methods described in post #26 and #29








=====================================================================================

Just different ways to achieve the same resulting design elements as requested by the OP. As he said, He did not know how to make the cut(s) needed. 

As it has been shown he has at least three options;
(A) remove most of the leg material
(B) remove some of the leg material
(C) remove none of the leg material


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

We just answered the question as it was asked...


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Dave McCann said:


> Because there are no hidden lines The other graphic (shown below) in the same post (#29) was drawn to illustrate this fact.
> View attachment 432844
> 
> At this point it is quite evident that even a model of the joint whipped together from scraps is insufficient. As I said, the cuts are quite simple, the fastening method is a proven method.
> ...


Now, I get it. The legs aren't notched, the aprons are notched! The strength of the joint is relying on the inside corner brace for vertical support, except the small tab on the apron that rests on top of the leg. It may be strong enough, but I would not stake my reputation on it, personally. If someone were to sit on the top, and the corner brace gives at all, I think the joint would fail. But who am I to say? Not my table, not my design, so not my problem. I posted my solutions above, so I'm outa here!


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Aprons aren't notched either.

Dave's simply trying to rework the problem...

Amazing how you ignore the sample..


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rebelwork said:


> Aprons aren't notched either.


No, not with your method.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> No, not with your method.


Mines not a method, but is on track with the OP's question.

Sometimes I get it and others don't
Sometimes others get it and I dont.

It's okay


----------



## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Elvis has left the building guys.

For tables, a haunched tenon and miter the ends if needed. You never cut the mortise all the way to the top of the leg. A haunched tenon adds a lot of strength!


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Hopefully the OP has got something from this post on how aprons are attached to table legs and is able to adjust his methods to accomplish the look he desires.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Y


DrRobert said:


> Elvis has left the building guys.
> 
> For tables, a haunched tenon and miter the ends if needed. You never cut the mortise all the way to the top of the leg. A haunched tenon adds a lot of strength!


agree....left the building


----------

