# Ugrent help with orange peel



## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

Seems I can never get consistent or decent results with lacquer even though I've been spraying it for years. One time it's perfect, the next time awful.

I am in the middle of a finishing project, spraying in my garage with the door open like I always do. It's 60 outside and low humidity. In my shop it's 55. This is where I moved the doors after spraying the top coat to keep the overspray from settling on them. They are taking about 30 minutes to dry to the touch and they have orange peel.

I thought orange peel was a result of lacquer drying too quickly before it can flow out and dry flat but I let the cabinets dry in the garage where there is a cross breeze and they dried faster with minimal orange peel.

I am using an HVLP sprayer and thinning the lacquer about 25%.

I am about to spray the fronts of the doors and I need to know how to fix this?

Thanks


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Can you post a picture. It sounds like something else is going on. Is it new wood or a refinish?


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Orange peal is usually from to much pressure or trying to put on to heavy of coat at a time..


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

It's a brand new project, maple, stained yesterday. Stain has 8 hour dry time.

This is the best I could do to capture it in a photo.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

What solvent are you using??? 25% should be enough if using a retarding solvent. Check these things:
Material not thinned sufficiently.....add the correct amount
Insufficient air pressure......Increase air or lower fluid pressure
Drafts.....eliminate excessive drafts

Here are some other things that will cause orange peel:

1. Shop is too hot and paint drys too fast
2. Improper reducer type to compensate for shop temperature
3. Not enough reducer to allow the paint to flow
4. Too much or the improper hardener
5. Distance too far from surface allowing paint to dry before it hits
6. Fanning of gun improperly
7. Materials not mixed uniformly
8. Too much air in your mixture causing overspray
9. Flash times between coats too long
10. Low Shop Temperature

If you find your first coat of paint has orange peel then increase the amount of reducer in your paint and get closer to the surface. If you see there is improper overspray at anytime you need to reduce the amount of air and this will reduce your pattern width so you need to take care on your overlaps once you make the change. Get closer to the work if you can.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Looks like you tried to put on to heavy of a coat or the gun you were using is not atomizing the finish.Could be the wrong tip for the finish too.Check the viscosity of the finish as compared to the tip.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

At 60 degrees it certainly wasn't too hot. It does look like orange peal though. Try thinning the finish more and see what happens. Your stain had adequate drying time. Did you wipe the excess off? If you had a residue of the stain left on the finish it could have caused a reaction. Was it a solvent based lacquer or water based lacquer? Sometimes water based lacquers can have an adverse reaction to oil stains.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

It's solvent based lacquer I am using. It seems like it's more the conditions of the atmosphere that are causing most of the problem. Anything I let dry in the garage where there is more cross breeze turns out much better.

Actually, the back side of the doors were stained on Wed, so with 2 days of drying I don't think it's a reaction to the stain.

I am using the 2nd smallest needle & tip that comes with the gun. It is the one they recommend for lacquer. I am just using plain thinner, not retarder. Spraying about 8 inches from the surface. 

I did put on a heavy coat, but that's usually what I do an don't have a problem with it. I guess it all depends on the weather when it comes to that.

Thanks for the replies.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Maybe your gun needs a good cleaning. I've had sprayers that did that and once cleaned worked fine. It might also be the lacquer needs more thinning for that sprayer. I've got the purple harbor freight gravity feed sprayer I have to thin more than any other sprayer I own. Thinner is probably going to be the answer to your problem. As cool as it is I would hate to get into using retarders. It makes the finish dry slower but also makes it take longer for the finish to fully cure.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, I have used retarder in the past and it's ridiculous how long it takes to just dry to the touch, so I usually avoid using it. I guess I will try thinning even more.

I have noticed in the past that I get orange peel more when I use a lower air pressure (for less overspray) so I have been using it on 7 today (goes up to 10). Normally I use 4 or 5 in ideal conditions. Is that usually the case?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm not really understanding your numbers. I normally spray lacquer at 40 psi. 

Normally when I use retarder thinner it is because of high humidity or temperature 100 degrees or more.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah that's the only time I've used retarder, to prevent blushing in high humidity.

My HVLP is a Turbinaire and there is a dial on the turbine that goes from 1-10 for air pressure. I'm not sure what each number represents as far as PSI


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The only thing I can suggest is take a scrap piece of wood and go through the settings 1 through 10 and see which one sprays lacquer the best.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

You shouldn't have to thin your lacquer more than 25%.
Its definitely an atomization problem. You need to dial in your air mixture.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> You shouldn't have to thin your lacquer more than 25%.
> Its definitely an atomization problem. You need to dial in your air mixture.


You don't know what brand he's using. I remember when you had to thin Promar lacquer 50% and Gemini lacquer 100%. There may be some out there that still need a more thinner.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

I have been using Lenmar lacquer for the last few years, but have had similar results with Magnalac before I switched.

I did notice that when I was spraying the sealer it seemed to be coming out in fine beads rather than a mist so either something in the gun needs cleaning or I need to change settings.

I really don't know much about this as far as viscosity and the appropriate setting. There are 3 air caps numbered 1, 2 and 3 and I have been using the middle one. There are 5 sizes of needles/nozzles and I am using the 2nd smallest. Should I be going up or down in sizes of those for better atomization. What about air pressure? More or less?

Thanks again!


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

RichO said:


> I have been using Lenmar lacquer for the last few years, but have had similar results with Magnalac before I switched.
> 
> I did notice that when I was spraying the sealer it seemed to be coming out in fine beads rather than a mist so either something in the gun needs cleaning or I need to change settings.
> 
> ...


Most Lenmar products are ready to spray and do not need reduction. The only thing I have added to most products now a days is either butyl acetate to help flow out, MAK to retard drying times, or acetone if I need something to flash quickly......all of these only at 10-15%tops.

Personally I couldn't tell you what sizes to use. If it's coming out in beads, you need to increase the air pressure for better atomization. 

I would clean your equipment and try it again. Then start making fine adjustments and go from there until you find your sweet spot.

I would reduce a ready to spray lacquer no more than 15% because you reduce your solid content so much that you will loose build properties. You will eventually get to a point where you are basically shooting a skim coat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm not familiar with either of those brands of lacquer. When you stir lacquer if it feels thick like enamel it's too thick. When mixing lacquer the stuff should be mixed thin as water. 

I don't use a turbine sprayer either so I can't be of much help. If you are wanting more atomization you would use the tip with a smaller orifice. Still your problem is with the finish. If you created more atomization with the finished mixed the same as what you did, it would go on with a texture of sandpaper. Finer atomization isn't all that important with lacquer on wood. It would show up more on some automotive finishes especially metallic base coats. With lacquer on wood you could use an airless sprayer where it felt like you were applying the finish with a garden hose and if you didn't get runs in it would come out good.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not familiar with either of those brands of lacquer. When you stir lacquer if it feels thick like enamel it's too thick. When mixing lacquer the stuff should be mixed thin as water.
> 
> I don't use a turbine sprayer either so I can't be of much help. If you are wanting more atomization you would use the tip with a smaller orifice. Still your problem is with the finish. If you created more atomization with the finished mixed the same as what you did, it would go on with a texture of sandpaper. Finer atomization isn't all that important with lacquer on wood. It would show up more on some automotive finishes especially metallic base coats. With lacquer on wood you could use an airless sprayer where it felt like you were applying the finish with a garden hose and if you didn't get runs in it would come out good.


Most ready to spray lacquers are just what it means......ready to spray. These lacquers are usually no more than 24 seconds in a #2 Zahn cup.

I wouldn't say atomization is not important on wood. I've seen improper settings before and end up with extreme orange peel due to flooding the topcoat and not enough air pressure. We increased the air pressure and got the spray operator to use faster spray passes and it cured the problem.

This is also a reason I don't like turbines. I'm not sure if you can turn the air up but so much, so then it becomes a matter of tip selection. Viscosity is very important if using a turbine.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RandyReed said:


> Most ready to spray lacquer are just what it means......ready to spray. These lacquers are usually no more than 24 seconds in a #2 Zahn cup.
> 
> I wouldn't say atomization is not important on wood. I've seen improper settings before and end up with extreme orange peel.
> 
> This is also a reason I don't like turbines.


I use cheap sprayers and get really good results. I have a pressure pot set up with a HF siphon sprayer I use to spray cabinets with. It has a 1.8mm tip on it which is all that is available. It sprays really coarse but the finish flows together and looks great once dry. I even spray table tops with this HF cup guns and the finish looks as good as done with any other sprayer. The only problem I had is spraying some Nason but the most difficulty is when I painted a car with Omni metallic base coat. I had to really work at it to get the base uniform. Since it atomized so coarse it went on too wet, and I had to really choke the gun down to make it work. 

You should see how we sprayed cabinets at a company I worked at using an airless. They had the pressure set up so high on the sprayer you could coat the side of an oven box in about one second. I never did get the hang of using the sprayer like that. If you hesitated the slightest bit you had major runs. Anyway the guy doing the majority of it was used to it and the finish came out looking like you used a high dollar sprayer atomizing the finish very fine. You couldn't tell the difference.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

All metallic paints you should spray with low air and with as low as fluid pressure as you can.....almost fogging it on. As you know, if you spray a metallic too heavy, you can see almost every lap mark and you don't get the even-ness of the metallic look. Your base coat color has alot to do with it too because it effects the over all look. Black under silver and red under gold works best.

Airless you have to move pretty quick. There's not much adjusting you can do.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

The spraying system came with a cup for measuring viscosity but I never used it, and I am thinking it was because the instructions and related calculations kind of went over my head. I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to reread it and try it out.

The Lenmar is plenty thick straight out of the can, much thicker than water consistency.

Reason I bought the HVLP was for minimal overspray but the more I turn up the air pressure, the more of a cloud I get in the garage, so I've been trying to find a happy medium.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

With lacquer the cloud you get in your garage will settle as dust. As long as you don't ignite the cloud I wouldn't worry about it. It's certainly not like enamel that will drift across the room and settle and stick to something. I can't really help you with the viscosity cup. When I first started spraying lacquer I just kept thinning it until it sprayed well. I soon got a feel by stirring it what the correct viscosity was and have never used a viscosity cup. It won't be long before you can just fill the sprayer to a certain level and finish filling the sprayer with thinner to have it just right. You just need to tinker with it until you find the right amount of thinner for the brand you are spraying in the sprayer you are using. Each lacquer and sprayer is different.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

I know some you will have issues with this but I believe a lot of the problems stem from using low quality equipment.I spent 12 years spraying 20-25 gallons of SW pre cat laq a week among other fiishes and neverhad to thin any of it to get good atomization and an excellent finish with the proper equipment.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

RichO said:


> The spraying system came with a cup for measuring viscosity but I never used it, and I am thinking it was because the instructions and related calculations kind of went over my head. I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to reread it and try it out.
> 
> The Lenmar is plenty thick straight out of the can, much thicker than water consistency.


Only other thing you need to check the viscosity is a stop watch.

Make sure that you have the material around 75 degrees to be accurate. Then put 1 finger on the hole on the bottom of the cup, fill the cup to the very top with the 75 degree material, grab your stop watch, and then let go of your finger over the bottom hole and start the stop watch at the same time. Once you see a "break" in the flow of the material coming out of the bottom of the viscosity cup, stop the stop watch. Do this 3 times to get an average time. Compare your reading with the recommended viscosity. If your too high, reduce starting with 5% thinner and repeat. Keep adding and rechecking until you reach the recommended viscosity. Write down how much you added so next time you can add the same amount and hopefully not have any problems.

Water is very thin compared to most lacquers that can be sprayed straight out of a can.

Rule of thumb for fluid tip selection:
1.2 to 1.3 for clearcoats
1.4 for basecoats
1.8 to 2.2 for high build primers and latex, etc


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Here is a video I found on checking viscosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR-ta50Ubrg


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Viscosity is directly linked to temperature. If you thin your material 25% in the summer @80 degrees and 25% in the winter at 55 degrees the viscosity will be very different. It will be much thinner in the summer. You will always need to add more reducer in the winter to get the same viscosity reading. If you check your viscosity regularly you will see where your gun atomizes best, then you can just add reducer until you get to that same reading. 

Newer HVLP type guns have a very limited viscosity range due to the baffles that keep atomizing air at or below 10 psi at the tip. With older conventional guns you could just crank up the air pressure and you could spray almost anything.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

You only need to thin "ready to spray" lacquer enough to actually push it thru the gun. I use a harbor freight spray gun and have thinned it 25%. If its not spraying well I will increase the thinner till I get a good even coverage.

For the question at hand. Sometimes you can spray "straight" lacquer and it will smooth out. Seen it done many times.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> You only need to thin "ready to spray" lacquer enough to actually push it thru the gun. I use a harbor freight spray gun and have thinned it 25%. If its not spraying well I will increase the thinner till I get a good even coverage.
> 
> For the question at hand. Sometimes you can spray "straight" lacquer and it will smooth out. Seen it done many times.


You have to be careful thinning lacquer over 20% as it will loose what little protective properties it has by lowering it's solid content. If you can't spray a ready to spray lacquer, you need a bigger tip. Its like thinning a sealer 50%.....its not a sealer anymore......its now a washcoat.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rick Mosher said:


> Viscosity is directly linked to temperature. If you thin your material 25% in the summer @80 degrees and 25% in the winter at 55 degrees the viscosity will be very different. It will be much thinner in the summer. You will always need to add more reducer in the winter to get the same viscosity reading. If you check your viscosity regularly you will see where your gun atomizes best, then you can just add reducer until you get to that same reading.
> 
> Newer HVLP type guns have a very limited viscosity range due to the baffles that keep atomizing air at or below 10 psi at the tip. With older conventional guns you could just crank up the air pressure and you could spray almost anything.


That's why I said make sure the material is 75 degrees. The standard is 77 degrees as that's the temperature most materials are checked at in qc labs and the range you will see on PDS results.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> You have to be careful thinning lacquer over 20% as it will loose what little protective properties it has by lowering it's solid content. If you can't spray a ready to spray lacquer, you need a bigger tip. Its like thinning a sealer 50%.....its not a sealer anymore......its now a washcoat.


Not always. manipulation is the name of the game. Suppose to and what I'll make it do is a different animal. I use the same tip for T77 as I do for polyurethane. Specs are worthless unless your in a controlled environment. Out here its the wild kingdom and every man for himself:yes:


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> Specs are worthless unless your in a controlled environment.


Don't understand that comment because specs are worth millions in any enviroment. The solvents you use to thin the product plays a big part in any weather (hot or cold) and is what helps achieve the best finish. Example....you don't want to use acetone to thin a product on a hot day.

I also use the same tip (1.4) to shoot the T77's, polys, cab acrylics, and nitro's.....and I don't have to thin over 15% for each product using that tip size., and on some of the products I have to choke down the fluid needle slightly. I can also spray Lenmar sealers and topcoats with the same tip and not reduce over 15%. The topcoat is around the same viscosity as the T77.

I'm not gonna kick a dead horse but if you start thinning topcoats over 40%, your simply applying a flow coat. Your end result is less than 1/2 dry mil on the surface. No way anyone should have to reduce a ready to spray topcoat unless they have the wrong setup. Even on a cold day, simply bumping up air pressure will atomize the material without having to reduce the product more than you normally would.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

RandyReed said:


> Don't understand that comment because specs are worth millions in any enviroment. The solvents you use to thin the product plays a big part in any weather (hot or cold) and is what helps achieve the best finish. Example....you don't want to use acetone to thin a product on a hot day.
> 
> I also use the same tip (1.4) to shoot the T77's, polys, cab acrylics, and nitro's.....and I don't have to thin over 15% for each product using that tip size., and on some of the products I have to choke down the fluid needle slightly. I can also spray Lenmar sealers and topcoats with the same tip and not reduce over 15%. The topcoat is around the same viscosity as the T77.
> 
> I'm not gonna kick a dead horse but if you start thinning topcoats over 40%, your simply applying a flow coat. Your end result is less than 1/2 dry mil on the surface. No way anyone should have to reduce a ready to spray topcoat unless they have the wrong setup. Even on a cold day, simply bumping up air pressure will atomize the material without having to reduce the product more than you normally would.


I understand what your saying:yes:. I just manipulated. There's a can and can't and then there's me, The lil train that could.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Except for having to put more coats on and more drying time I don't see that over thinning lacquer is going to hurt anything. I've never been able to go by factory recommendations anyway. I have to tune the finish to fit the sprayer I'm using. If I have lacquer mixed for my siphon sprayers I have to add more thinner to it to use it in the HVLP sprayer I have.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Except for having to put more coats on and more drying time I don't see that over thinning lacquer is going to hurt anything. I've never been able to go by factory recommendations anyway. I have to tune the finish to fit the sprayer I'm using. If I have lacquer mixed for my siphon sprayers I have to add more thinner to it to use it in the HVLP sprayer I have.


Yes, you would have to put on more coats because your not getting the protection you was meant to get with the product. Too much thinning and your basically shooting a washcoat as a topcoat.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

As a follow up to this, I just did a viscosity test with the lacquer at about 65 degrees and it all ran out of the cup without breaking stream, about 18 seconds.

According to my sprayer's instructions, at that viscosity the smallest needle and tip should be used. I know I used to use that one but went up a size because of the orange peel.

I am still confused about the 3 different sizes of air caps. I just tested all 3 of them and it seems that the smaller the air cap, the more air pressure exiting the gun. And where are you supposed to position the air cap in relation to the tip? Is it meant to be adjusted for width of spray (what I've always done) or it that affecting the atomization in a bad way?

Thanks


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

I just changed to the smallest needle & tip (.75mm) and did a test spray on scrap wood and it was heavy orange peel immediately on application. I don't know how it will dry but I would assume it should never look like that should it?

The lacquer had been sitting in my basement which is 65 degrees and I sprayed it in my 47 degree shop just so you know what conditions I am working with.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The larger tip you use the less problem you will have with orange peal. You won't ruin the finish by using a too big of a tip. The lacquer will flow out. It's some automotive finishes that you really need to atomize the finish a lot.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

I tried the 1.5mm needle/tip and plenty of material came out, but it dried with orange peel, and took about an hour to dry to the touch.

Right before this test I fully disassembled the spray gun and soaked all the parts in lacquer thinner, so that can't be the issue.

Could it be the lacquer thinner I am using? I just get the cheap stuff from the big box stores. Could that be the problem here? I guess it's worth a try to get the same brand as the lacquer I am using.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

RichO said:


> I tried the 1.5mm needle/tip and plenty of material came out, but it dried with orange peel, and took about an hour to dry to the touch.
> 
> Right before this test I fully disassembled the spray gun and soaked all the parts in lacquer thinner, so that can't be the issue.
> 
> Could it be the lacquer thinner I am using? I just get the cheap stuff from the big box stores. Could that be the problem here? I guess it's worth a try to get the same brand as the lacquer I am using.


It could be the lacquer thinner. Lacquer thinner isn't a single chemical, it's a mixture of several different solvents. In recent years lacquer thinner has gotten a little more universal. When I got into the business it was pretty much the rule you used the same brand of lacquer thinner as the lacquer. Lacquer thinner intended to thin a lacquer finish normally has some retarder thinner in it where others intended for clean up may have more alcohol. Still the only time I've had problems with orange peal with these thinners is in very hot weather. Part of the problem could still be with the turbine sprayer or the distance from the work you are spraying. If the gun is over atomizing the finish you may need to use the gun closer to the work. The finish should go on wet enough that on vertical surfaces you have problems from time to time with runs.


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

I went to the paint store where I get the lacquer and all they had for thinner was the same brand I have been using. I bought some more lacquer and tested it with the viscosity cup and it was 23 seconds. 

I tried spraying it right out of the can with no thinning and the gun had no problem spraying it, but, still getting orange peel no matter what. I am spraying about 6 inches from the surface and putting on a wet enough coat but this is what it looks like immediately after spraying:










It seems that the gun is not atomizing the material correctly. When I make a single pass on a piece of wood it looks more like an inconsistent spatter than a smooth application. This is what a single pass looks like:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I can tell from the picture it's too thick. Keep adding thinner until it flows out level. Lacquer should be very thin. If you don't use a sealer it may take four coats.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm not as experienced as Steve but I do agree with his fix and would add. Measure out the thinner and lacquer accurately every time to aid in being consistent. Also, all the guys that sell lacquer say the same thing. No thinning required. All the guys that spray it say they thin the crap out of it until it lays down and produces. 

Al


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## RichO (Apr 29, 2009)

You are right it does look thick, but the viscosity test on the thinned lacquer that I was previously getting orange peel with was 18 seconds. Should it be even thinner than that?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't use a viscosity cup so the reading doesn't mean anything to me. What I can tell you is a finish needs to be tuned to the gun you are using. A mixture for one sprayer may be way too thick for another gun. I believe you have a mixture that would work well with one of my sprayers but is struggling to go through your turbine sprayer and needs to be thinner. As thick as that is spraying I would double the amount of thinner you have been using and try it.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

RichO said:


> You are right it does look thick, but the viscosity test on the thinned lacquer that I was previously getting orange peel with was 18 seconds. Should it be even thinner than that?


I think it may be your spraying technique. 

Try spraying with faster passes and be careful not to be too close to the wood when spraying. 

You should be able to use a 1.4 with that material and not get orange peel if your at 18 seconds on your viscosity. Most material is checked at 77 degrees in their quality control labs, so your actually below 18 seconds.

You may also need to adjust the air up or down depending on the fluid coming out at the cap. Turn the air down, pull the trigger, and turn the air up until you see the fluid being broken up properly on the outsides of the fan pattern.


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