# Practical difference between $500 and $1200 table saws



## daviddoria (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm trying to do my homework before buying a new saw.

I currently have this little guy:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...053&langId=-1&keyword=table+saw&storeId=10051

which is not suprising that I've had tons of trouble with. For example, it struggles with hardwoods, fence is annoyingly not parallel to the blade, miter gauge is TERRIBLE (and worse, a non-standard slot so aftermarket gauges aren't an option), it vibrates and "walks" a bit as it cuts, etc.

I am looking at this like this for ~$500
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&keyword=table+saw&storeId=10051#.ULTlIOTEbFI

and trying to figure out what I'd get for the $ if I double the price to something like this:
http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-7084...2&cgid=jet-table-saws&srule=price-low-to-high

I am certainly an "amateur" woodworker, but don't want the tools to be the reason for sub-par work 

I've read the "guide to table saws" on this site (http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/...ns-making-sense-all-choices-part-1-3-a-43321/) and several other similar articles, but still don't really understand the practical difference between these two levels of saws.

If the answer is "you'll be able to cut much faster!", then I don't really care to pay the significant price difference. If the answer is "one is going to still give you tons of headaches and bad cuts, while the other just works", then it seems more reasonable to spend the $.

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

Thanks!

David


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

My first table saw was the initial version of this saw

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-prof...p-00922116000P?prdNo=8&blockNo=8&blockType=G8

At that time it had a commercial Biesemeyer fence and cast iron top.

Once this was calibrated it worked well. The 1 3/4HP motor was able to make most of my cuts, but when I needed to cut e.g., 8/4 lumber, it was not easy. I tried thin kerf fewer teeth blades, but it was still under powered.

I do not see much of a difference in functionality with the two links.

The Rigid has a mobile base, which may be useful if you have a space constraint. It is slightly less HP than the Jet.

The Sears saw in my link is the same HP as the Jet, and likely a "beefier" internal design. I am not sure how good the no-name fence is for either the Sears or the Rigid.

If you need to use 120v for the saw, then you will likely find 1 3/4HP as the max motor size. For , 8/4 lumber this should be adequate.

The fence is a big consideration in my view. I cannot say which of these fences is "better". If you can go to the store to see, it will help.

I look for ease of locking, stability when locked meaning no flexing at the far end, and ability to calibrate to the mitre slot.

The saws which mount to the table top are not as easy to calibrate the blade to the mitre slot as the saws which mount to the cabinet. This should be a one time excercise.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks for making this thread! I was looking at both saws myself, but leaning toward the Ridgid. I almost got a good deal on CL but it was sold. My biggest problem with my crappy saw right now is the fence and miter guage.....If I don't see anything on CL soon I might just get the Ridgid.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

First off you will see a lot of benefit from the saw you have now to the Rigid saw you showed in the $500 range.

Heavier saw, bigger table, more HP better fence= less vibration, cuts better on hard woods and probably more capability for dado blades and larger sheet goods. I thought all saws now have a diving knife but its not listed.

If your going to go up to $1200 I would get a Grizzly cabinet saw. They can be bought for around that including shipping if on sale, if not it may run $1400 but well worth the money. That's provided you have or can add 220v service. I personally don't think the Jet you listed for $1200 is that much better then the rigid so your wasting money in that case. JMHO

Where as this Grizzly has a much bigger motor, heavier trunnions and saw, a riving knife with a better fence which just adds that much more to the benefits with the Rigid saw. You would get a lot more saw for the money with Grizzly but if 220v circuit or space is an issue then the Rigid would be a good saw. Just remember if you buy the grizzly cabinet saw there would be no other upgrading later unless you wanted longer rails, the rigid is a good saw but you may later want to upgrade to a cabinet saw.

I hope that helped some.


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## daviddoria (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks all for the quick replies!

Are there other saws in the $500-$700 to consider besides the Rigid?


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

daviddoria said:


> Thanks all for the quick replies!
> 
> Are there other saws in the $500-$700 to consider besides the Rigid?


You may find a Grizzly, Craftsman or similar hybrid type saw in that range. Your looking at a good time Christmas time offers lots of deals and come January through February there will be after Christmas, income tax and inventory clearance sales. That Craftsmen saw Dave linked to was around a $1000 yet I've seen them and posted it on here for a clearance price of $170 because new models are coming out and they have old stock to get rid of or pay taxes an inventory tax on it. 

I'm a firm believer in shopping clearance sales mostly because I never find deals on Used tools. So if you can't find what you want now you have a few months to maybe get a deal. If you've got the time and patients.


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## Andrew120 (Jun 30, 2012)

If you wanna stay around 500 then get the rigid, it is a well received model that I've done TONS of research on. It is easily upgradable as far as fences, cast iron wings, and extension tables.
Also SOME Home Depots will take a 20% off harbor freight coupon if u take it to the store and there is a HF in ur area, worth asking the manager for $100 off anyway.

If you want to spend a Lil more then you could consider a steel city saw which had cab mounted trunions and cast iron/granite tops for about 700-1100 depending on model and where u buy from.

I u wanna spend just a BIT more for a HUGE upgrade in performance then get a Grizzly for about 1200, they are GREAT saws.

Andrew


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## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

It looks to me like the two saws are about the same as far as power rating, cutting capacity, etc. So you will likely not see much difference in the function of the two. The ridgid saw seems to be highly regarded as a fine saw especially for an amateur woodworker should perform well. Recently, I have noticed several comments about the jet equipment being overpriced for its quality, fit and finish and even performance. I think this would probably be one of those instances you would be paying more for the jet name and not getting much more of a machine.

I have a ridgid 3650, seen here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/table-saw-router-table-cart-42279/ and am very well pleased with it. I was going to buy the 4512 like you linked until I found a used deal so I plicked it up. Actually, if I did not buy the used one I was going to go that day to HD to pick up a new one. From what I can tell the 4512 and the 3650 are close in performance. So I would reccomend buying the ridgid if these two are you options.

However, like others have said if you are willing to spend $1200 ish on a saw I would seriously consider stepping up to a Grizzly cabinet saw.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

hey, if you're looking to waste $700, the jet is the only way to go. especially if mediocre to average performance from an overpriced tool is what appeals to you. after all, you get a nice white paint job adn the letters "jet" for that extra $700. sounds like quite the deal!

seriously, the 4512 will do everything the jet will, but it will cost less, has a 3 year guaranty (not a one year guaranty) and is eligible for registration with ridgid's lifetime service agreement (LSA - free parts and labor for life). try getting that from jet.

also, steel city tool works table saws are available through home depot online and is having a sale through year end:

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/pdf/USA2012fall_lowres.pdf

when purchased through HD online, HD will match the sale price which includes free delivery to the buyer's home. addtionally, steel city tools carry a 5 year guaranty.

good luck with your purchase. just watch out for the jet/powermatic koolaid. their current offerings are not, IMHO, the values their older tools were.


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## sweensdv (Mar 3, 2008)

Between the two saws that you are looking at I can't see any reason to spend the extra dollars for the Jet. An extra ¼ HP in the motor department will not make that much difference in performance. I'm not going to get into the motor hanging off the back vs inside the cabinet arguement as I feel it's kind of a personal choice and doesn't matter as far as how the saw performs. The Ridgid is a good quality solid saw so I'd go that route unless you have the $$ to go higher. If that's the case than I agree with Richard, look at the 3 HP Grizzly Cabinet Saws.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

sweensdv...... FTR, both the linked jet and the 4512 have motors within the saw cabinet. neither has motors hanging out the back in the manner of old style contractor saws.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*$500 vs $1200 table saw*

$500: light weight, vibration, noisy, mediocre fence, possible plastic parts, aluminum parts, maybe no dust collection, not a life time machine/investment.


$700: Better motor, more actual HP, still runs on 120 V, better fence, riving knife and guard that is easily removed and installed, easier to calibrate and aligned, less vibration, possible still "portable" or movable on a stand, better machined surfaces, more accurate settings, smoother angle and height adjustment, longer lasting for the most part.

$1200 and up: Heavy castings, good machined surfaces and internal parts, totally enclosed HD motor with 3 HP runs on 220V, good dust collection, riving knife that is easily removed and follows the blade, heavy, accurate, self squaring fence, quiet running motor, large table in front of the blade, extensions can be added on both sides including a cast iron router table, fewer if any plastic or aluminum parts, a "life time" investment" where you buy it once and won't wear it out in your lifetime.

My saws run from $3600, 12" Powermatic, new about 15 years ago, $1200, 22124 10"Craftsman Hybrid ($490.00 on clearance), $700 a Bosch 4000 job site, and used Craftsman at $186.00 Craigs List ($500.00 when new).

I don't have a lightweight aluminum/cheap portable, but I do have a Bosch job site saw which was just under $700.00 when new. It is one of the better job site saws out there.
Like this: Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand - Amazon.com Great saw for the price, but not a life time investment. JMO


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If I was looking, I would keep my eye out on CL, or eBay for a good deal on a Unisaw, or a Powermatic. For that kind of money or less you could find one in good shape with an aftermarket fence, like a Biesemeyer or Unifence.









 







.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Long before I went with the Jet....i'd look at the steel city or craftsman 22116 model. I have that craftsman model and I love the granite top....its well built and the fence is top notch.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Oh...and you can get it for around 900 on sale...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

That Jet has some advantages, like a nicer fence, and possibly nicer fit and finish, but I don't really see an additional several hundred dollars worth of value from that particular saw....however, I'm sure the Jet salesman would! :laughing: The jump to a Grizzly G1023RL for $1294 shipped at least puts you into a different league with heavier underpinnings, better mechanisms, cast iron wings, much nicer fence, more power, more mass, less vibration, longer service, etc....it's simply a nicer more robust class of saw (a comparable Jet would run closer to $2K). If you want to spend $1200 and have 220v, I'd get the G1023RL without hesitation. If $500 is your budget, put a good blade on the R4512 and get it aligned...it'll do just fine.

If you're restricted by 120v, but want a few more goodies on your saw, the Griz G0715P and G0661 both offer a better fence and solid cast wings...the G0715P has a full enclosure. Some of the Steel City offerings and the Cman 22116 would be worth a look too.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> If I was looking, I would keep my eye out on CL, or eBay for a good deal on a Unisaw, or a Powermatic. For that kind of money or less you could find one in good shape with an aftermarket fence, like a Biesemeyer or Unifence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you start to talk about used saws, it is hard to say what saw is a good deal until you see it in person and spend some time with it. Take time when looking at a used saw to check that the arbor is tight, that everything moves freely, etc. Anything you find wrong with it when you first inspect it will save you in the long run--and give you something to bargain with as you try to squeeze a lower price out of the seller!:laughing:

I took the used saw route and am glad that I did. Realistically, you could get a contractor saw with cast iron top and wings (Emerson made CMan, Rigid, Delta, etc.) and upgrade it to suit your needs. Table saws are painfully simple machines and there are very few parts to wear out. As long as you find a saw that has been reasonably well cared for, you can clean, service, and upgrade until it is the right saw for your needs. This worked for me since I don't mind tinkering (secretly enjoy it) and don't have mountains of spare cash laying around. :thumbsup:

Over the last year, I have a net of around $150 tied up in my saw (still OEM CMan fence :thumbdown. With even a $500 budget, it'd be in another class all together.


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## oldmacnut (Dec 27, 2010)

I have the R4512 Ridgid saw. I put the cast iron wings from the TS3650 on it, as well as the rails and fence. So I have a solid cast iron top, and 1 piece fence and rails with the little mico adjuster. I am completely happy with my saw, I even have full kerf blades that do just fine. Not once have I had a lack of power, or quality issues. I clean my saw once a week, Dust collection is great. Only upgrade I will be doing next is to put the Delta T2 Fence/rails on it. I have seen this saw with the incra fence kit on it before.

I got my R4512 the same month it was released, though I would have liked to have the R4511 for the granite top and cabinet mounted trunions, this saw was worth the 300 I paid for it new.


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## bmcdowell40 (Apr 20, 2012)

I have the R4512. I looked at the Grizzly Polar Bear series hybrid saw and the craftsman hybrid saw before i bought the Ridgid. When evaluating the three, I realized that I would need to spend another $100 on a mobile base for the craftsman and the grizzly. I really looked at these three closely to compare them, read reviews on all 3, and when it came down to making a decision, I simply didn't see any added value in the craftsman and grizzly models. The caster system on the Ridgid is great, so easy to maneuver. The blade that ridgid includes is ok just for general cutting but for cabinetry and woodworking, it leaves alot to be desired. For the price, its probably the best value in a table saw and for a hobby woodworker like myself, it fits the bill nicely.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

The wheels are offset by the top notch blade the craftsman 22116 comes with. It's on par with at least high end freuds ( I'm no convinced its not made by Freud)


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## Yeorwned (Jan 9, 2010)

Definitely go for the Ridgid. You barely get anything for the additional cost to move up to another mediocre product like a Grizzly. Due to the amazing volume pricing Home Depot gets, you're getting an amazing deal buying the Ridgid regardless of what price you pay for it compared to competition elsewhere. If you decide to upgrade after the fact, expect to jump into the $2k range to get a true upgrade.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Yeorwned said:


> Definitely go for the Ridgid. You barely get anything for the additional cost to move up to another mediocre product like a Grizzly. Due to the amazing volume pricing Home Depot gets, you're getting an amazing deal buying the Ridgid regardless of what price you pay for it compared to competition elsewhere. If you decide to upgrade after the fact, expect to jump into the $2k range to get a true upgrade.


:blink: "Amazing volume pricing" doesn't bridge the gap between a base level contractor saw and an industrial cabinet saw. The Grizzly G1023RL would be a considerable upgrade from an R4512 or any contractor saw or hybrid. It's $1294 shipped to your door, which is considerable less than the $2k range.

What you "barely" get is over twice the mass, much more robust innerds, beefier mechanisms, larger higher quality handwheels, yoke style cabinet mounted trunnions, twice the horsepower, solid cast wings, full enclosure, steel Biese clone fence. In a nutshell I don't agree with much of that statement. I'm not saying that a cabinet saw is necessary, but I'd hate for someone to walk away with the impression that a 1023RL is barely anything more than an R4512, and that it'd cost $2k to get one.


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## daviddoria (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks all for the input!

So the Jet is defintely out!

I have decided not to go up to the >= $1200 price point, so it is down to between the Grizzly hybrid:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P

and the Rigid:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&keyword=Table+saw&storeId=10051#.ULdfX-TO3hw

One concern with the Grizzly is "Motor: 2 HP, 110V/220V, single-phase, prewired to 220V" - does that mean I need to change the wiring when I get it? I'm assuming there'd be instructions for that? Does anyone have any info on if this Grizzly will go on "January crazy sale"? (I'm assuming the Rigid will not since it is through Home Depot?).

The choice seems to be "top end of a hobbyist company" (the Rigid) or "bottom end of a serious wood worker company" (the Grizzly). I guess I'm leaning toward the later, because I'd assume that in the future more things may fit the Grizzly (new fences/extension tables, etc). Is this reasonable logic? Sorry to beat this question to death - I'd just hate to spend $ on a saw that I'm going to kick myself every time I use it for not getting a different one 

David


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*top or bottom?*

If the budget is a concern go Rigid, a decent saw, runs on 120 V and a decent fence. It will do everything a table saw in needed to do.

The Grizzly is a more impressive saw for about $400 more. It won't make any better cuts than the Rigid. There were some quality issues with that model posted here. Hopefully they have been resolved. It's still a hybrid, with the trunions mounted to the bottom of the saw's table, not the cabinet. That only matters for the blade to slot alignment process which probably may need to be done only once. A true 2 HP motor is better on 220V. Since it will require a dedicated circuit on 120V, and if you don't have a 220V circuit you will need to get one...either way additional expense on the Grizzly .

I had a Craftsman 10" 100 series for 45 years and it did all I asked of it. As I upgraded to better saws, I kept the old workhorse for ripping longer boards outside in the driveway and carried it around in the pick up to jobsites. It had a lousy fence and no dust control. So your Rigid would be a great improvement over any contractor type saw. 

I also have several Grizzly tools, bandsaw, jointer, shaper, drum sander and they are all fine machines. Their 1023 or 0690 models would be a once in a lifetime investment, and if you can afford the money now I would go that way. The 0715 is kinda in between the 2 extremes. 

In my experience the fence is the heart of any tablesaw, assuming a powerful motor and a decent blade being equal. You interact with the fence at every dimension change, so it should be self aligning, squaring and easy to move and lock in place. :smile:


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

daviddoria said:


> Thanks all for the input!
> 
> So the Jet is defintely out!
> 
> ...


c'mon, you're not including the jet? you're not going be duped into overpaying for a very unspecial TS just because it has the "jet" name on it? bravo!

both the griz and ridgid are good units. if you can find a HD that honors harbor freight's "20% off any single item" coupon, the 4512 is $400 plus tax. i can't think of a saw that provides a better value than that. 

have you dismissed steel city from the process? they seem to offer some fine products in the $650 to $900 range, especially through year end. and they appear to be available through HD online.


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## JoeNY (May 8, 2012)

There are 3 classes of saws- Portable, Contractor, which includes hybrids and Cabinet. Within each class, what really makes a saw is the quality of the castings and materials, quality of the motor and the quality of the fence. The best portable saw will not be better than a decent contractor saw, which will never be better than any cabinet saw. 
I have had 3 saws over the past 22 years: my first was a 10" Craftsman contractor saw with a Beismeyer commercial fence on it, which was a good $350 saw made great by a $250 fence and a selection of Freud blades; but that saw is no match for my current 14 year old 5 hp JET Cabinet saw (bought new in 1998 for $1,300); and I also have a $100 Delta portable that is really not very good, but works for the occasional jobsite small projects.
In what you are looking at, the Rigid seems to be a good saw although the fence isn't first rate.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken the grizzly 715P has problems. A member on here bassblaster had problems that grizzly new about and they took the saw back. I would avoid that one. 

For your budget the rigid is the best saw talked about here. However that budget would still do allot better with a used saw or a clearances model saw for less if you ave time. If not get a HFCS 20% off coupon out of one of the wood working magazines and go get a new rigid using the HF coupon at HD. 

They except competitors coupons and most everybody that has tried it on here has had success saving money that way. There has been a few occasions that it was questioned or denied but usually the manager will except it or go to another Hd that will.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The Griz G0715P, R4512, and Cman 21833 all had the same alignment issue in the early models. Those issues have supposedly been fixed. All three saws had some very similar parts under the hood that caused the issue that were likely sourced from the same factory. If the problem isn't resolved, the issue would likely still exist for all three saws. These three all have similar duty rating, and all have table mounted trunnions.

What you get for the added cost in the G0715P is a full enclosure, solid cast wings, better fence, better switch, nicer handwheels, a bit more horsepower, and more mass.


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## daviddoria (Dec 18, 2007)

knotscott - the Rigid has cast iron wings too, no? And are the fences interchangable? That is, if I dislike the Rigid fence for some reason, can I replace it with a different one?


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## Andrew120 (Jun 30, 2012)

U can replace the fence. However I believe the wings on the rigid are cast iron CORE which means they are a cast iron core surrounded with steel so not quite as good as solid cast iron 

It is worth mentioning the wings can be replaced as well.

Hope that helps, 
Andrew


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Well knotscott I usually accept our opinion in these questions but I will disagree in this case. The two quotes below are from bassblasters thread about his problem with the 715P. Pay close attention to how they responded about that saw model, especially the second quote.



BassBlaster said:


> Knotscott, if for some reason Grizzly cant or wont fix this problem for me, I guess that will be the best solution.
> 
> 
> I just got of the phone with a tech guy from Grizzly. He did admit thats its a known problem in the earlier saws of this model but it has been addressed and the new ones dont have that issue. I expected them to just offer to exchange it but they didnt. They still may I guess. He said they are going to research it and call me back in 24 to 48 hours. I dunno what they are researching since its a known problem but I guess I'll find out in the next day or so.





BassBlaster said:


> Okay fellas, I got the call from Grizzly today. My saw is defective. There was actually more wrong with it than I knew about. He said it had some side to side play and some front to back play that they was able to correct. I didnt even know those problems exsisted. The up and down play that I sent it in for was alot worse than they thought and cant be corrected. They were showing it being out 58 thousands. I only got 24 thousands but I was only able to get a reading with the blade about half way down. Obviously, the further you crank it down, the worse it gets. They gave me three options.
> 
> Option 1, Send me a new G0715P
> Option 2, Upgrade to a G1023RL
> ...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm guessing the tech guy BB talked to is the variable here. It's the only quote of that nature I've heard from Griz....he may have been incorrect, may have mispoke, been misunderstood, leaked a one time gasp of frustration, etc. I'm not saying the G0715P is the best choice here....it could be, but I don't think I'd rule it out based solely on that comment from a Griz technician or on this particular incident. I don't believe the tech's statement reflects the company line. There have been numerous reports from happy owners of the saw since BB's issue.


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## jswills76 (Nov 30, 2012)

Dont buy either of them. Watch Craigslist or local auctions and find a nice powermatic 66. I bought mine from a auction in like new condition for 375 now you wont find that deal everyday but theres alot out there for 1000 + -.


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## robjeffking (Dec 11, 2012)

The 4512 with the HF coupon will allow you to purchase the T2 fence and that combination for a first saw will be the best combination in the 600.00 price point.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

you guys amaze me........:huh:

overseas produced machinery.....

mass........:laughing:

What a joke.....:thumbdown:

Look at some OWWM........


Amercan/german/English made machinery,,,all of which screams qualty......

Biased favorite....

The Oliver 260D....

all 2200lbs of her.......

2-5hp 3/ph motors......
rotating trunion from rip to crosscutt in a matter of seconds..sliding table,,,,,quadrant and miters...pinnned...

16" duall blade capacity......

and for those of you that think the fence needs to be as long as possible,,,,,,,,

that is quite the opposit in the logic ....
you create more binding issues .....think about it,......


your being mislead...........they cant afford the cost to give you an independant fence- no rails.....

pinned to the table.........

look at the history of WW machinery........
a 52" rail for a fence is NOT AN IMPROVEMENT!...

quite the opposite........

once it is past the blade....thats should be it,..however.............if there is any deviation in the material ....as soon as it hits the end portion after the blade on a long fence....binding will now comence.....if anything....the fence would have to be as long as the material being cut before the blade and after the blade to get an accuraute straight cut......and guess what.....it is out there..

only...

it's on the other left side of the Saw Bench....

Martin .freind of mine from another forume turned me on to them....\
..an incredable piece of engineering......slider..All 19 feet of it.....

I have seen the T-75's at a reasonable price now and then....used... but they suck up a huge amout of space......




my 1929 Oliver 88 is incredable.....since I have owned her I could not be more of a happy WW'r.......that saw eats wood and leaves such a clean cut....absolutly increadable...:thumbsup:

but i did spend about $400.00 for 2 new 16" blades 1- rip and 1 crosscutt....

both of which leave a glass cut finish... I kid you not....!!!!!!



what turns people off from the machinery that I am talking about...

3PH...........
However....
That is not the only issue...it's also the weight and size...

once you jump into 3ph machinery....you will NEVER GO BACK to single phase...

never..

the difference,,is neglagable....most definitly....



B,


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Bweick7 said:


> you guys amaze me........:huh:
> 
> overseas produced machinery.....
> 
> ...


Interesting rant, but hard to follow. I am not sure how this applies to the topic of this thread... ... ..... ......... ...... .. . ...... ....

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

you don't.....:blink:

500-1200.....$


your all chasing Asian machinery....:thumbdown:


tin cabs.....they design what your 5-1200 is going to get you.....


so dont expect much.......

Unisaw,,,,used,,,older.......


start there,,,,,,IMPO


B,


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

A 2 ton 3 phase mammoth saw has a very different market than a contractor saw. Yes, purchase price can be similar, but there are a number of other costs that are substantially higher for large, obscure, vintage machinery. I am all for buying used and support products made in the US, but they are very different machines.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

And untill it's in your shop, you wouldn't be able to relate to what I am saying....

as far as expense........ guess what it would cost you for a single ph 5 hp motor vs a 5 hp/3ph motor.....

running 3ph....RPC....VFD....take your pick.....not an issue, just saying...

those are NOT contractor saws as pictured....with the exception of the crapsman.....

closed box .........

Do you own any 3ph WW machinery......:blink:


B,


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## WoodWorkinRI (Aug 17, 2011)

Biting my tongue.:icon_rolleyes:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Bweick7 said:


> you guys amaze me........:huh:
> 
> overseas produced machinery.....
> 
> ...


Wow just over 30 post and already stirring the pot. 

Your post is completely different subject then what the OP started. Just because the dollar amount fits don't mean the item works for everybody. Most guys just starting out don't have room for that big stuff. Then the added cost of 3ph just don't work for everyone. Those old pieces of equipment lack things like riving knives and quick change guards.


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## robjeffking (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree rrbrown The spirit of this post is what decision to make based on what's available to a user making their first purchase. I do like the older machinery the first question I always ask myself is can I get replacement parts.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Bweick7 said:


> you guys amaze me........:huh:
> 
> ...


The tone of your post is kind of insulting and not helpful to the OP. I can't argue that some of that old arn is better built than your average $500 Asian made saw, but it amazes me that you'd expect an entry level wwer with $500 in hand to go out, find the perfect old tool, and deal with the quirks of getting an older 3phase machine up and running.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Some one got up on the wrong side of the bed today....


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

My appologise if it came across the wrong way........


B,


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I think the problem with your assumptions are that not everyone has the room, or ability to get the old iron units. My 12x20 basement workshop barely fits my craftsman hybrid, and we had all we could do to get its 450 lbs down the stairs. Would I like a 1000 lb monster saw, sure.....but it just ain't happening.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

I totally understand ,
They are not for everyone , due to certain situations......Size of shop,where it's located, power availability ,costs involved....etc..etc..etc..


Hauling Arn down a set of stairs is something I would not be willing to attempt.....

But you would be amzed at the lengths some guys go to to get OWWM in thier shop........
.....including one gentlman i know who builds pipe organs-He has to get his machinery up 2 sets of stairs....http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=91750&p=627501#p627501

I was blown away when I first read about this....


Sorry if I came of sounding like a prick guys....seriously...

My appologise,..:thumbsup:


B,


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

ryan50hrl said:


> I think the problem with your assumptions are that not everyone has the room, or ability to get the old iron units. My 12x20 basement workshop barely fits my craftsman hybrid, and we had all we could do to get its 450 lbs down the stairs. Would I like a 1000 lb monster saw, sure.....but it just ain't happening.


I'd be moving a 450# Unisaw down to the basement shop, before any Hybid saw. 450#'s is 450#'s Just sayin


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I paid 235 bucks for my hybrid, brand new in the crate. Find me a unisaw new for that and ill haul it up and out today.


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## Andrew120 (Jun 30, 2012)

I know I'm late to the party but just to throw my two cents. I work in about 3/4 of a two car garage. Three phase, outta the question, maybe someday but not today. A saw that would literally use ALL of my space? Can't happen. Some of us just can't get these huge machines, whether we want them or not.

I think as far a the purposes of this post go, the ridgid is a great, compact, inexpensive starting saw. Make some dust :thumbsup


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Andrew120 said:


> I know I'm late to the party but just to throw my two cents. I work in about 3/4 of a two car garage. Three phase, outta the question, maybe someday but not today. A saw that would literally use ALL of my space? Can't happen. Some of us just can't get these huge machines, whether we want them or not.
> :thumbsup


Huge machines? My Unisaw with 2 wings is 31" deep (with fence rail) and 40" wide. The same size top as a contractor saw. But without the motor sticking out the back a foot or so.

Point being, for a full size saw, a cabinet saw takes up less space than a contractor saw.


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## Andrew120 (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm not talking about a standard unisaw. I'm talking about the guy who talking about 2-5hp 3 phase saws...that weigh 2000 lbs...


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks for the information everyone, this thread has been very helpful to me. I'm not sure if this belongs in this thread, or a separate one, but I figured I'd give it a shot here. I'm in the market for a tablesaw, and like the OP I currently have a poor table saw: http://www.lowes.com/pd_167737-4692...saw&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=table+saw&facetInfo=

I've decided I want to invest in a lifetime tool, so for me I'm gearing more toward a $1,000 table saw than a $500 one. But I do have some limitations. My workshop isn't wired for 240 v, only 120. I'm renting right now, and will likely purchase my own home in a few years and have it wired to 240 then, but for the time being I can't use a table saw with that power source.

Knowing that, what would you guys recomend? I'm tossing back and forth between a Steel City and a Grizzly, but I don't know if the Steel City offers a saw in 120. I know this one by Grizzly does http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P and I could convert it back to 240 when I later get the power source, so that's an option. But at the same time I don't want to limit myself to purchasing a less than optimal saw on 120 if I'm going to get one with 240 later. In that case, would I be better off buying a $500 saw now, and getting a $1400 saw later?

Thoughts?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35950G


Thats basicly the saw I've got, and its a great saw.....no complaints at all. Comes set for 110.....and easy to covert the saw when you get 220.....


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Good to know some of the Steel City saws can be wired for 120. I guess a follow up question would be whether or not 1 3/4 HP is sufficient long term. Have you noticed any issues with the power? Or do you wish you had a 3 HP motor?


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

Your going to have issues.........But that all depends on what your cutting, how often, blade......etc..etc...


I would opt for 3hp .......



B,.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Do they make a 3 hp that can run on 120?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Wishing I had the 3 hp motor isn't something that comes up often. It's kind of like my pickup, 300 hp is usually plenty, are times I wish I had 500, yes but not very often.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nope*



Specialkayme said:


> Do they make a 3 hp that can run on 120?


Horsepower HP, is a widely misused and misunderstood term when it comes to split phase electric motors. Manufacturers use different methods to "measure" HP so you get different ratings. Amperage AMPS, or current draw, is a better determinant of power. However starting current, maximum current or stall current maximum current varies also. A 3HP motor is a 220V motor and when you see it as 120 V it's not really the case. Usually that high of a rating is on a universal type motor which runs on AC or DC. Shop power outlets should be rated at 20 amps ideally and have no. 12 wire, not no. 14 wire to supply them. 
A 1 1/2HP motor is about all you can run on 20 amp circuit on 120 V. A 2HP motor is the rare exception and may not always be reliable on 120 V.
Check this out: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_amps_does_a_2_hp_120_volt_single_phase_motor_draw


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Do they make a 3 hp that can run on 120?


Short answer is no. Max HP you will see at 120Amps is 1 3/4 unless it is Craftsman who can magically produce "3 HP" on 120A when no one else can. I like Knotscot's way of putting it that this 3 HP develops when it is hit by lightning. There may be other brands that do this but I've seen it done frequently by Craftsman so I have no problem calling them out on it. As Woodnthings says, check the amps for a real number and compare that with your circuit and wiring.

(I do have a 2 HP dust collector that says it can run on 120A but it would be troublesome and require 30A breaker. I wouldn't push it.)


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks for the post Woodnthings, you both educated me and confused me at the same time, in a good way, lol.

I looked at your link, and re-read your post a few times, and I think I get it. So AMPS are a better indication of power than HP, with (according to your link) 1 HP = 740 watts/120 volts = 6.166 AMPS.

So as an example, lets look at the table saw ryan mentioned http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35950G
It's rated at 1-3/4 HP TEFC, 115V/230V, 15/7.5 Amps, which I'm assuming means you get 7.5 Amps when run at 115V, and 15 amps when run at 230V. So, using our calculation above, if you run that motor on 115V (at 7.5 Amps) it's really running at roughly 1.216 HP (and not the 1 3/4 it's listed at). But, if you run that motor on 230V (at 15 Amps) it's really running at 2.432 HP (and well above the 1 3/4 it's listed at). Does that sound right?

To further confuse things, the table saw I currently have (and listed above) is super weak, and is rated at 15 Amps. Now I'm further confused, lol.

For obvious reasons, any table saw that is capable of running on 115V and 230V will have greater HP (and power) running on 230V than it would on 115V. That same saw really only shows what you paid for when you flip it to 230V. But I think the greater question is if there really is any difference between a motor running at 2.432 HP on 230V (as listed above), or a motor running at 3 HP (if you purchased a single phase 3 HP engine, or a three phase engine)?

Essentially, I'm trying to maximize the purchase I'm going to make without having to purchase something else two or three years down the road. If we take it to the example of a truck, I know there is a huge difference between a V4 and a V6. There is also a noticeable difference between a V8 and a V6. But I don't think there is that much of a noticeable difference between a V10 and a V12, unless of course you are hauling tens of thousands of pounds, then you'll notice it. I think I'll notice a difference between my current saw and a 1.75 HP saw. I also think there will be noticeable differences between a 1.75 HP saw running on 115V and the same saw running on 230V. But will I really notice much of a difference between the 1.75 HP saw running on 230V and the 3 HP saw running on 230V? Will I only notice it if I'm cutting extremely dense wood with a 3/4" dado blade? Or will I notice it when I'm ripping SYP boards with a think kerf blade?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Couple things, the saw in question here (steel city) uses 15 amps on 110 and 7.5 amps on 220, not the other way around. This allows you to maximize the draw on your main panel. Also allows you to run your saw easily on 14 gauge wire rather than really using 12 gauge (yes you can run a 15 amp draw on 14 gauge, but most people don't like doing it). The horsepower remains the same on either power supply


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Second, you won't notice a huge difference between 110 and 220 on the same saw, you may notice blade speed recovers a bit faster, but the power difference is negligible. Now going from 1.75 to 3 hp. You'll see a difference there. That said, it costs more to run that 3 hp saw, costs more to buy, and unless your cash supply is limitless, keeps you from buying another useful tool. I think the vast majority of hobbyists are perfectly fine with 1.75 hp saws.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

The power output doesn't change when you switch between 120v and 240v....the voltage doubles, the amps halve, so the total wattage remains the same. 240 tends to have less voltage dropout, so you may see improved startup times and better recovery from bogging if you're former 120v circuit was sub-par (many are), but there's gain in usable HP.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Ok, so a better answer would be to state that 1 horsepower = 745.699872 Watts (according to the all powerful Google). Therefore:

15 Amps * 115V = 1725 Watts / 745.699872 Watts per HP = 2.313 HP

OR

7.5 Amps * 230V = 1725 Watts / 745.699872 Watts per HP = 2.313 HP

Is that more accurate? So that particular saw that's rated at 1.75 HP is actually higher?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

In a perfect, frictionless world that's likely correct ( without me checking calculations). But factor in friction, voltage loss, ect and 1.75 is probably pretty accurate. Also, my saw doesn't draw the full 7.5 amps that I've ever been able to capture.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Perhaps it's really irrelevant anyway. In truth I'm really looking for a decent table saw that can run at both 110V and 220V, that will last me a long time. Of prime importance is the motor strength/power (in Amps), the durability, stability, and availability of replacement parts.

Keeping that in mind, I think I've narrowed it down to two options:

Steel City
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35950
1.75 HP (15A/7.5A)
3,450 RPM
30" Right Ripping
20" Left Ripping
Cast Iron
5 Year Warranty
$999

or

Grizzly 
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P
2 HP (16A/8A)
3,850 RPM
30" Right Ripping
12" Left Ripping
Cast Iron
? Warranty
$725 plus $99 Shipping = $824


The Grizzly seems to be more powerful and cheaper, but ripps on the left less (not a big deal to me). But I don't know about their warranty. 

So, which would you go with?


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## Andrew120 (Jun 30, 2012)

I would go grizzly, idk their warranty in terms of years but I do know their customer service is superb. Great products, good prices, great service.

I don't know if that particular saw is the model they used to have trouble with but even if it is I've heard that the problems have been dealt with.

Andrew


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Get the Grizzly---that company has the best customer service of any that I have dealt with---And parts and a good machine shop---a pleasure to do business with.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

You said your renting, there's a good chance your on a 15 amp circuit max, which the grizzly may not run on. Also, factor in the mobile base as the grizzly it's extra and the steel city is built in.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

There is only so much you can expect from a 110 vlt single phase motor....

And it will show that when you start sizing larger material ....


So don't expect miracles .......


There is a difference from using 220 on a single ph motor and the 110 side....


Otherwise.....if there is no difference,....why have the option to begin with...:blink:


They do it for a reason.......
And if you switched your motor vlt settings from 110'to 220.,,,,,those of you that have done so can agree that the performance of the drive improves....

I believe it has something to do with torque ,....




B,


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I haven't seen a noticeable difference in power on mine, the reason for doing it for me was that the 10 amps my dust collector draws, the 6 the lights draw, the 4 the air cleaner, the 2 the misc other chargers and radios, the furnace water heater bathroom and fan all draw was getting close to 60 amps.....switch a few wires, suddenly I have an extra 7.5 amps on my sub panel to use.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Before you buy that Grizzly you had better read the thread by Bassblaster of his experience with that saw. A friend of mine has a Steel City table saw and is very happy with it. They make good tools.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

_______________________.





B,


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## robjeffking (Dec 11, 2012)

Dont forget to compare the fences a good fence makes a huge difference. Left of the blade capacity not many cut to the the left but my incra miter gauge has more capacity to extend when I use the stops for repeat cutting so I do like having a bigger table capacity to the left.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Shop Dad said:


> Before you buy that Grizzly you had better read the thread by Bassblaster of his experience with that saw.


Thanks for the information SD. I just finished reading that thread, and it may have changed my perspective. The Customer Service from Grizzly sounds like it was phenomenal. But when a tech at the company tells a customer that the saw isn't that accurate, it gives me some concerns. The increased HP on the saw over the Steel City saw almost had me sold, and the lower price tag had my cursor hovering over the purchase button. But if it isn't a very accurate saw, I'm really going to have to rethink this.

I would love to get the 1023 over the 715P, as I'm willing to spend the extra $500 for a very nice machine, but I can't run 220V, so that one's out of the question.

The thread had a few other links to threads that discussed Grizzly precision, so I'm going to read those before I make up my mind for certain, but I'm leaning more toward the Steel City saw.



Shop Dad said:


> A friend of mine has a Steel City table saw and is very happy with it. They make good tools.


Any idea how accurate it is?

Their mobile bases included in the saw is also another pleasant addition . . . and saves me from buying something extra . . . 



robjeffking said:


> Dont forget to compare the fences a good fence makes a huge difference.


Between the Grizzly and the Steel City, which has the better fence?

I've been looking at that as well, but both seem to be about the same. At least as far as I can tell.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Also, what are the advantages/disadvantages of Granite top over Cast Iron?

I know the Granite top won't rust . . .ever, and is heavier. But other than that I don't have a clue.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Any idea how accurate it is?


I don't believe there are any known issues with the Steel City saws, so really it would be as accurate as your ability to maintain it as with any saw. It's been very accurate for him.

Too bad you can't get the 1023. That's a great value from what I can tell. As far as fences of the other two they are both Biesemeyer clones so should be comparable and very good. Neither are an extruded aluminum like the base fence that SawStop has.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

My steel city built saw is very accurate, once aligned I've had no issues at all. The fence is stout, thats for sure. its heavy, slides nice, very repeatable cuts are possible. 

As for the granite top, you nailed the big one....never rusts....ever....ever.....Also, its extraordinarily flat. Look in most machine shops and they'll have a granite surface to do measuring off of, not because steel isn't flat, but granite doesn't change. Now the downside is it could crack, but i've been pretty rough on mine and had no issues, and the tops close to 2 inches thick so i'd think its going to take something pretty hard to break it. Now the one downside, you can't use magnetic jigs on it....if you ever intended to do so. 

Other than that......i can't find any downsides to the granite top.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> I would love to get the 1023 over the 715P, as I'm willing to spend the extra $500 for a very nice machine, but I can't run 220V, so that one's out of the question.
> 
> Th


Did you check that you have a 20 amp circuit to run the grizzly??? It won't run on a 15 if its got a 16 amp draw!!! And if you can't run 220, i'm assuming you also can't run a new 20 amp 110 circuit!


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> As for the granite top, you nailed the big one....never rusts....ever....ever.....Also, its extraordinarily flat.


I did a few searches on here for granite top advantages over cast iron, but most of the threads were a few years old and were "shock and awe" about granite tops in general. Most didn't indicate how hard you have to drop something on them in order to crack or chip it. In the past, I've used my table saw top as a general assembly table/glue table due to conservation of space. I need to get in the habit of not doing that, so having a granite top will actually assist in that regard.

The shop that I currently have is also somewhat humid. It's an outdoor, non-climate controlled shed. I think the roof leaks a little (somewhere that I can't locate it), and the rafters show some water damage, although in the 14 months I've lived here I haven't noticed any damage. All the same, I think I'd be better off playing it safe with a granite top. Plus, it will give me the incentive to build a workbench. 

I've been trying to source a location to purchase the saw. I know Steel City is offering a special through 12/31 of their 35950G for $999.99. But it confuses me that they offer a sale but don't sell directly to the public. How does that work? You can buy it on Home Depot (online only) for $1,300.00. My local woodcraft supply doesn't keep it in stock, and I don't know how ordering it from them would even work, but ToolKing.com offers it for $1,099.00 plus $99.99 freight shipping. If I got it from a local store (woodcraft supply) I'd have to pay tax, and assuming they would honor Steel City's sale price, it would already bring it up to $1,075.00 (and not sure if they would charge me some kind of shipping to get it there or not). Due to the price comparisons, shopping around, being harassed by some sales person that tells me I need to get a JET instead (and spend an additional $1,000), I'm think I should just buck up and get it from Tool King. Only thing that concerns me is their return policy, should something be defective. I may not be present when the item is delivered (wife should), and won't be able to inspect it to make sure it's un-damaged. If I can't inspect it when it's delivered, in order to get it fixed I have to pay the additional shipping to return the item (pain!). Hopefully something that won't come in to play, but just thinking things out.



ryan50hrl said:


> Did you check that you have a 20 amp circuit to run the grizzly???


Something I didn't even consider. Thanks Ryan!

My circuit breaker is old, and so worn it doesn't state if it's 15, 16, or 20 amps. I'm assuming it's 15 amps though. 

All the more reason to go with Steel City though :thumbsup:


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I use mine for glue up and general assembly all the time....haven't had a problem! You might check with lowes and Home Depot, both carry steel city (lowes only lists certain ones on their website) but i'm pretty sure they carry all of them......i've heard of people taking a print off from the steel city website in and they've honored it.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

One other thing to consider......

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-prof...p-00922116000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

Basically the exact same saw, minus the mobile base.....but with a really handy outfeed table included that folds down when not in use. 

One other difference thats a benefit possibly for you, the sears saw has the top made in 3 pieces, center and two wings, easier to transport, and IF you ever broke a part, its replaceable without buying an entire new top. 

Right now with a sears card you can get it for 905.......pick it up at any sears.......and the mobile base is available for 80 bucks or so......same price as the steel city, and you get an outfeed table.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

A decent saw, but Sears only offers a 1 year warranty as opposed to Steel City's 5 year warranty. The Sears saw also doesn't appear to have a riving knife. Both are things I think are more important than an littered table, in my opinion. Although a 3 part table top would be nice.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

the craftsman saw has the exact same riving knife the steel city has......the only differences are

the 3 piece top vs. 1 piece
the mobile base vs a 80 dollar option
The outfeed table on the craftsman vs non on the steel city


Sears offers a 5 year warranty for 84 bucks....


So depending on what you can get the steel city one for....the craftsman may actually end up cheaper even with purchasing the 5 year warranty....and you get an outfeed table


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

I think it ends up being about a wash.

The Steel City saw is available online for $1,099.00, plus $99.99 in shipping. I'm working on getting them down to the advertised price of $999.99, which would total $1,099.98, and if not it's $1,198.99.

The Craftsman is $950.00 (and out of stock locally, but available in 14-18 days). I'm not interested in getting a Sears card under any circumstances (I work as a bankruptcy lawyer for a living, and I've seen it bite too many times to participate). A mobile base would be $80 and extending the warranty would be another $85, making a total of $1,115.00 pre tax, or $1,198.63 post tax. Or almost the exact same price (but has an outfeed table and a 3 part table, both of which have advantages and disadvantages). 

So it really comes down to Steel City vs. Craftsman. My dad was a lifelong supporter of Craftsman until he got shafted by shotty equipment, an over zealous salesman, and a store that refused to stand behind their product. Look long enough and you'll find someone who will be dissatisfied with any product, but screwing my father over leaves me somewhat biased here. Plus, I'll applaud a company that offers a 5 year warranty included in the price, rather than luring you in with a lower price and a shorter warranty, only to jack the price up by adding a warranty on top of it. From a business perspective, I'd rather order from someone that stands behind their product regardless of how many additional warranties you choose to purchase. Sorry, and I'll step down from my soap box now :icon_smile:

So I think I'm going to go with the Steel City, but thanks to everyone for the help! Lets hope all my equipment purchases aren't this challenging . . . lol.

Now to just figure out a date that they can come and deliver it!


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Seems like sound logic. Be sure to post pix once you get it so we can hand out cigars. :laughing:


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

ToolKing.com said they would honor Steel City's advertized price.

So I get it for a little bit less 

Plenty of pics will be uploaded, a cigar will be smoked, and a small glass of bourbon drank. Ok, maybe a Captain and Coke instead of the bourbon.


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## jdiggy (Dec 26, 2012)

First post but lurker. Been looking for a saw and noticed amazon has the steel city 35950 and 35950g for $999 w/ free shipping with amazon prime. Both are on back order. I've placed an order for the 35950.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

......... :tongue_smilie:...

B,


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## Troy32 (Oct 19, 2012)

I had a good experience with Toolking. I just bought the whole Incra TS Combo. They had by far the best price and then honored a 2 year old ad for free shipping. I found an old ad on some website that said free shipping over $199. The service person at Tool King said they stopped that promotion 2 years ago. I did not even push the issue as I was already getting a real good deal. She then said if I can show here where to find the free shipping ad online she would honor it. Saved about $300 dollars over the next cheapest offer.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

My first real saw was a PM 66. 54" fence, 5hp motor, 850 bucks. 

Once I dipped my toe in the 2500lb TS class, I sold that tin box PM faster then you can say Frank H. Clement. 

The old stuff is great, you do have to do a little tuning and give them some love, but it is worth it.

For how much and how often most here will use a saw, those asian tin boxes should last long enough that when they break, you can't get parts and you toss them and go buy another. After all, they got to be able to keep selling more of them.

If you guys really want to get B going, ask him about babbitt bearings.....


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> My first real saw was a PM 66. 54" fence, 5hp motor, 850 bucks.
> 
> Once I dipped my toe in the 2500lb TS class, I sold that tin box PM faster then you can say Frank H. Clement.
> 
> ...


You know the old stuff is OK, but damn do you have to make it sound like the best thing around. For most on here it's not even close to practical. I would prefer a new 3hp cabinet saw over those old things anyway and I'm probably not alone on that. Mostly for the newer features and a hell of allot more practical to most of us.


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## Specialkayme (Dec 8, 2012)

Amazon was offering free shipping on the 35950g, and you didn't even need to get Amazon Prime. I placed my order with amazon today. Saved me $100 shipping off Tool King's order.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> You know the old stuff is OK, but damn do you have to make it sound like the best thing around. For most on here it's not even close to practical. I would prefer a new 3hp cabinet saw over those old things anyway and I'm probably not alone on that. Mostly for the newer features and a hell of allot more practical to most of us.



That is what I was getting at, for most here the old derelict stuff is not worth it, unless it is a PM 65/66, Uni, BC, or the like. 

In all honesty there is no comparing an asian tin box to a Northfield #4, not even in the same category.

But comparing a 20-30 year old PM66 to a new grizzly, I would take the PM every time and it would be cheaper. 

So, by all means get that new saw, use it for a while and then come back when they are ready to step up a couple classes. 

I just see the Pac Rim stuff as throw away stuff that will not be around or being used 60-100 years later, like almost all the stuff I run.

I still think granite topped stuff is silly.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I still think granite topped stuff is silly.


Why?


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

yea, Babbitt bearings...........that is the ONLY area mechanically that I do not desire in an OWWM piece of machinery, ...thats not to say I don't appreciate them D,.........
I do, but PERSONALLY, I don't want to pinstripe my wall , my ceiling and myself.....I tolerated that for a very short time.........and the truth is I never mastered the art of Babbitt bearings....

The felt, the wick, the write amount of shims......etc..etc..etc.....

I became intolerant to want to learn the art of Babbitt Bearing Machinry....

i have witnessed fully functional, smooth ,..babbit bearing machinery run. John Hulley, ...He replaced them new , went thought the entire process and i could not believe how great they ran, no play what so ever,...luke warm journals after running 15 min...no spill out, no pin stripping ....just incredable....

seriously,,,:thumbsup:

So,
I gave up on them with out even starting,.....

so yes,......
that is the one area that i bum you out....dont be.....

We both know something about the great American/English WWM ...

And to try to explain why it is we like OWWM,.......that is sooooooo hard to put into words........

I used to be like every body else here...that was before I tried my first Oliver 260....:laughing:.......OMG,......and I thought what I had was something to be proud of,...:huh:



well ,it was ,....as long as I omit the experience I had with the 260...:blink:..

just an incredible machine....cuts are cleaner...,no burning...smooth, accurate...rotate the turret from CC- rip ,CC - Dado, or any combination.......

That's just the 260....there are the AWWM, the Northfield's, the Tannewitz, and one of my favorite manufacturers of the English built machinery-the "Wadkin"....

the PPK.....drool......

You have to try them to see for yourslelf........seriously.......:thumbsup:
then maybe your experience will help you understand why we love OWWM.......

Ill say this to you, and this is a little bold but "once you try a piece of well maintained OWWM.....your never going to look back at what's in your shop the same way....

yes, it's doable......

I have over 14,000lbs of it on my Framed flooring.....

I had to , well, lets say.....get some Iron beams involved....:laughing:

Stiff and sturdy.....:thumbsup: 


So I have gone to a lot to accomidate OWWM.....

I would have never gone to all that trouble for a chicom piece of machinery, 

weight would be of no concern....


On a side note, but it does relate to OWWM regarding table saws........

Whats the reasoning for having such a long fence past the blade on a modern table saw.....?


why do they spit out these long fences for your table saws-BeeZ...and the like...?.....


think about it.,....:blink:

Now you know how I feel with your Festool club D....:laughing:

Granit....please...............that's an accident waiting to happen.......

the true term is a "SAW BENCH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,did I mention the word "bench"..were all guilty of it,,,,wham!....:blink:...:laughing:

B,


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Bweick7 said:


> Granit....please...............that's an accident waiting to happen.......



One could say the same thing about the lack of riving knifes on old saws........

I've talked to quite a few other granite top saw owners over the last few years, and haven't ever came across anyone that broke one. However, I have come across dozens of guys that are spending hours upon hours trying to remove rust from an iron top, and often to not be able to remove all of it and still have pits....my granite top.....gunna look the same for the next 50,000 years! The tops 2 inch thick granite, bolted between two angle iron pieces, bolted on top of a steel cabinet, with two steel rods running through it......I think its more durable than alot of people give it credit for.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

so your not into to OWWM...it's all good..:thumbsup: We all have our own way....all I am sayin is...it might be worth just tasting it...

form your own oppinion....



B,


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I have no problem with old tools....i've got a 50's delta band saw, and i'm looking for an old school drill press as we speak, however, I think its funny to consider new tools (and their innovations) junk.......lots of people thought the same thing about airbags and anti-lock brakes too.....

Thats all i'm trying to say......old stuff has its place, its just not in most guys hobby shops.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

by the way....

riving knives were introduced in 1906....it may have been sooner, I am saying this from an Oliver fans perspective..


the 290,260,88,270,232....

all of them had riving knives......includuding my 1929 88D.....

that's just the Oliver line....I could go on and on and on and on....

unfortunatly,....you have been misinformed...just saying....



that is exactly why you have them on your saw in todays machinery to begin with ...

B,


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

They actually have quite a large presence in hobby shops. Way more then you would think. 

Here is just one example from my shop. 
I bought a 1942 Yates american 24" direct drive planer, with grinder and bar, powered bed rollers, 20 to 60 fpm feed, 3600 pounds. Paid 400 for it, put another 400 in it to get it to as close to factory fresh as I could. 

You have to spend 12k+ to get something comparable (us made). I have turned down offers of 2500 bucks for it already. 

My Festo chain mortiser set me back 100.00 bucks. They sell for 2k+, if you find one that someone is willing to part with, at it is almost 60 years old. 

There really is a lot of benefit in them, but I am happy not many like them, more for me to buy.


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## Bweick7 (Jan 14, 2010)

Well Said Sir D....:thumbsup:

You have to ask yourself one question...." Are you OWWM experienced....


and that -is that....

check it out.......

we certainly are not doing this just to piss you guys off....:laughing:

well worth checking it out,,,,

then you may understand....



there is something about this blasted stuff that just beckons you for more...:thumbsup::laughing:


B.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They actually have quite a large presence in hobby shops. Way more then you would think.
> 
> Here is just one example from my shop.


But you can't consider your shop a true hobby shop......if you do.....you might be the only hobby shop with a chain mortiser (which is a great piece by the way), but aside from you two guys......99.9% of hobby shops don't have 10 tons of cast iron in their shops.......

And don't get me wrong....i'd take alot of old iron if I had a spot for it....but I had to get my saw down the basement stairs.......450 lbs was hard enough.....


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Enough with post that don't pertain to the original concerns of the thread.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

I know some members have cabinet saws they would sell. If you list your location, you might get an offer for a good saw.

Not to mention CL. My CL has a Unisaw listed for $500 right now.


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