# First hand plane... Help?



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hello, guys. This is my first post, and I'm sure this has been asked on here a million times before, but I'm going to ask it anyway. I'm just now getting really into woodworking. It started a couple years ago building work benches with just a handsaw and a drill. A couple months ago, I took it upon myself to drop a bunch of money on power tools I didn't have to build a dining room table. It turned out really pretty for being my first major adventure, but I've decided that before I can do huge projects, I should probably learn the basics.

I've been doing a lot of reading and more reading on the Internet and books, and I've found that the overall opinion is that for a first hand plane, an old Stanley No 5 is the best option, and while I know I can get them pretty cheaply on eBay and recondition them myself, I don't know that I'm ready to that on just yet. So, after my rambling, here is my question:

These are all planes that I've found today through a couple hours of searching that all seem to be pretty decent (to the untrained eye). One of them even seems to be ready to go out of the box.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290835670204?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221170388734?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290835418968?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251196835583?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


In your opinion, is one of these better than another? Would any of them be good? Would none of them be good? Sorry for such an amature question, but I honestly just don't know. And if there is a better starting point for me, please point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance.

- Garrett


----------



## Woodwart (Dec 11, 2012)

Any of those planes look good to me. $25 is about right for a #5 in reasonable usable condition. I have several, all of them good and not all of them Stanley, althought the Stanley #5 I bought new in the 70s is still my goto plane. I have a few #4s too and they are very useful. The most important thing once you get one is to acquire some sharpening devices (I use Japanes water stones, but there are other methods) and make sure your blade is sharp enough to shave with. Take very thin shavings and take a lot of strokes, rather than trying to take a lot of wood off at once.

The #5 is a good, versatile plane. I also keep a couple of very small block planes in my apron for reducing irregularities in the surface of boards, relieving edges, etc.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

take a look at my site as well, http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/tools-for-sale/


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

If you are looking for a No 5 to be able to be used without much work, the second link looks to have been restored well.

Current bid was only $22.50 at the time I looked. Just two days to go.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221170388734...84.m1438.l2649

The last link is a low end copy of the Bailey design. Not worth considering.

I have Stanley Bailey No 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 which I purchased in the summer.

If you see a decent price for one with some rust, do not be afraid of restoring.

Most of these had only light rust, some bad blade sharpening.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/hand-plane-lot-purchase-42172/index2/

I purchased this rust bucket mostly to show a friend how to do a restoration. I sent this onto another forum member who is using it. This is a "no name" No 5. It was common for companies to copy the Stanley Bailey design.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/latest-rust-bucket-plane-43433/

My favourite of the Stanley set happens to be the No 4. Lighter than the No 5, same blade width so I find easier to use.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you very much for your replies. Dave, I appreciate your direct opinions on specific links. It really helps! My wife and I have talked about scouring some flea markets this weekend, so Woodwart, I may end up taking your restoration ideas. And Time Tested Tools is a great website! Wonderful job, I'll almost certainly be in touch.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

the best way to go is flea market finds and restore or tune as needed. This will help.

http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/bench-plane-restore-the-dw-way/


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

That seems VERY involved!


----------



## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I got a Stanley #5 as a retirement gift. It's always been a pleasure to use.
I've sharpened it twice at 30 degrees. No big deal and went no further than a 1K water stone.
A 24" x 1" curly from western red cedar is so pretty, I wonder what I might use it for!
Yes, I have seen the Russian birds.

Hindsight tells me that the #5, tuned up, is a really good place to start.
You won't know why you need another/different hand plane until you can see all that
the #5 can do.


----------



## Woodwart (Dec 11, 2012)

I have bought at least two planes brand new in box, at ridiculously low prices. Looking at the dado plane I bought, it wasn't advertised as BNIB, but on taking the plane apart I found that the blade had never been honed, and there was no evidence of wood shavings anywhere on it. Similarly, I bought a Stanley block plane for $15. Very little evidence of use, never honed, and clean as a whistle. It's not one of the ones that Patrick of Blood & Gore fame likes, but honed and tuned it's a perfectly serviceable piece. There are some real bargains out there. There are also garage sales and yard sales where people are sellling off Grandpa's tools and put low prices on them as they have no idea what they are worth.


When you get them assembled and honed, the most important thng to remember is to take very, very thin shavings. When I cought my #5 plane 40 years ago it didn't get much use, as I was always trying to shave 1/16 to 1/8" shavings, and the plane would hang up, and I would put it away in frustration and finishe the job with a sander. I never sharpened the blade because I was afraid to ruin it.(We didnt have the internet back then, and people who could help were scarce.) When I got over that hang up and learned to sharpen and set planes correctly, I am having a great time with my planes. 

The largest shaving I take is about 1/100". The plane runs very smoothly at that setting and below. I have a 120 year old wooden plane that can take a shaving of 4/1000". That's just showing off, though. :icon_smile: To set up the blade I usually raise it until it is above the bottom of the sole, then put a piece of scrap wood in the vise and advance the plane a little at a time, and adjust the tilt of the blade as necessary, until I am getting a very thin shaving the width of the surface I am planing.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

not to much in life that worth anything isn't involved. It's not hard and I find it fun. You learn an awful lot about planning restoring a plane. If you're looking for easy it going to cost you.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

+1 with TimeTestedTools.

If you want to get into hand planes, it is very useful to do a restoration. I did several in the thread I linked earlier.

Removing the rust can be as easy as leaving in the Evapo-Rust.

Sharpening the blade is a skill you need to learn whether you purchase new or used. Blades get dull with use, so just a matter of time before a blade needs to be sharpened.

I love seeing the before and after restoration picture people post. Always nice to see a good old tool get a new life.

If you want to purchase a hand plane which will usable out-of-the-box, consider the Veritas line from Lee Valley. I have a few of these. Free shipping until Jan 7.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41182


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

I ended up picking this one up at a flea market today for $10.






















The woman selling it had it priced at $25, but I told her I could buy one online, almost ready to go, for that price and was able to talk her way down. Hopefully I didn't do too badly? The blade still seems to be in pretty good shape, actually still pretty sharp. Now to see what I can do with it.


There was also a guy selling one almost exactly like this (except it was in terrible shape) but it was a Keen Kutter, and he wanted $80. Especially as a beginner, that seemed nuts to me. There was someone else who was also selling one, but there was no branding on it, all it said was "MADE IN USA". In insight as to what that one may have been?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I ended up picking this one up at a flea market today for $10.
> 
> The woman selling it had it priced at $25, but I told her I could buy one online, almost ready to go, for that price and was able to talk her way down. Hopefully I didn't do too badly? The blade still seems to be in pretty good shape, actually still pretty sharp. Now to see what I can do with it.
> 
> There was also a guy selling one almost exactly like this (except it was in terrible shape) but it was a Keen Kutter, and he wanted $80. Especially as a beginner, that seemed nuts to me. There was someone else who was also selling one, but there was no branding on it, all it said was "MADE IN USA". In insight as to what that one may have been?


You did pretty good. Many folks at flea markets think an old tool must be valuable. Your homework on Ebay paid off.

This should restore without any problem. 

I did my first restores without Evapo-Rust. I used Permetex Fast Orange with Pumice and wet-dry paper. I think your rust is superficial and will come off easily with this method. Also removes the grime. Evapo-Rust works well, but it is expensive, almost 3 times what you paid for the No 5.

There were lots of companies making knock off's of the Stanley Bailey design. The "Latest Bucket of Rust" thread I linked was a similar "no name". I would also have passed on these.

You have a real Stanley and once cleaned up, a valuable addition to your tools.

Since you will need to keep the blade sharp, you should decide on a jig to assist.

If you can spring for this Lee Valley honing guide, it is a pleasure to use with hand plane blades.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078,51868

If you want to make your own, FireMedic posted a easy to make design.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/shop-built-sharpening-jig-30241/

Congratulations on the purchase. :thumbsup:

I just have to warn you, this is the beginning of a new vortex. Cannot have just one plane. :laughing:

If the tote (rear handle) is in bad shape, these are not difficult to make.
TimeTestedTools has a step by step on his site.

Lee Valley has the templates for laying out on the wood blank.
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=63262&cat=1,46168


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks, Dave. You're right, a lot of my rust is superficial. Most of it wipes right off. In fact, a lot of it isn't even rust, there's a lot of caked on dirt and what appears to be sawdust. As far as a jig or honing guide is concerned, when I first started looking, I was kind of just eyeing this one:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202883308&R=202883308


Not quite sure how well it will or will not work. I just don't know that I can justify to my wife spending $60+ on a honing guide when that could be X number of diapers and wipes. 

Both handles appear to be in really decent shape, so I shouldn't have to replace either one, I don't think. Thank you very much, Dave, for your links and information. Very, very insightful.


----------



## Woodwart (Dec 11, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> Not quite sure how well it will or will not work. I just don't know that I can justify to my wife spending $60+ on a honing guide when that could be X number of diapers and wipes.


That plane is eminently restorable. I often take the rust off with a belt sander. On my stones, I use a Stanley honing guide that came in a kit for about $10. It works. I usually grind the bevel of the blade to 25º on the belt sander, then hone a secondary bevel at about 28º using a 1000x and a 4000x waterstone.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> Thanks, Dave. You're right, a lot of my rust is superficial. Most of it wipes right off. In fact, a lot of it isn't even rust, there's a lot of caked on dirt and what appears to be sawdust. As far as a jig or honing guide is concerned, when I first started looking, I was kind of just eyeing this one:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202883308&R=202883308
> 
> ...


I have that jig. I originally purchased this to use for sharpening chisels. It did not hold the tapered steel of the chisel well.

It may hold a hand plane blade better, but I gave up on trying to use it a long time ago. I hope you have better luck than I had.

The plastic angle guide flips out. You position the tip of the blade at the desired angle.

Stanley used to sharpen their blades to 30 deg. Record used to sharpen their blades to 25 deg. So you need to decide what angle works for you.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I wouldn't buy the set from home depot. I don't think you'll be satisfied with it. I use one similar to this one.

You don't need the expensive veritas jig. A typical eclipse style (like the link I posted) works well. They are fairly inexpensive and last a long time.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

In addition to the Stanley jig you linked from Home Depot, I have one similar to the Wood River Honing guide linked by Don (TimeTestedTools).

I do not use either one. Just my experience. Others may have been more successful.

The HD one has two plastic rollers which wear easily on the abrasive. The method to set the angle is crude. The blade is held by two screws. I found the blade would tend to move during use.

The Wood River one has a screw to clamp on either side of the blade. This holds the blade securely, but it did not have a way to consistently set the blade angle. This style has a single steel wheel. I found it difficult to keep the jig horizontal. Too easy to tilt slightly which caused the blade to be slightly cambered. Some folks prefer this. I wanted the blade to be square at the end.

If you want to save money, I would make one like the FireMedic link I posted. This had two sets of in-line roller blade bearing to help keep this from tilting.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Dave, I've been sharpening tools for a long time, but I've only been sharpening then correctly for a couple of years. Having transitioned from a power tool guy to a hand tool guy and a bit of a "professional" (and I use this term very loosely for a lack of a better one) restorer, I've learned a few things.

I'll share them, to be used as you will.

I strived (SP?) very hard to learn free hand sharpening. Its mostly what I do now. I think everyone should, even if they don't ever really get there. If your single wheel jig doesn't keep the blade straight, try sharpening with it like your going to go free hand. That's press your fingers, as hard as you comfortably can, as close to the stone as you can, on both edges of the iron. I typically use 2 fingers on each side. In theory think of it as if your trying to push hard enough to put a slight camber on the iron. I've never been able to push that hard, but if you did it would be perfect. Its one hand on each side of the blade. You hold onto the blade, not the jig.

Eventually you'll be able to remove the jig from the equation. I tend to skew the blade a little more free hand than with the jig.

Thicker blades are easier, especially if you hollow grind.

To free hand you want to rock the blade until you know where its hitting on the front and the back of the bevel. If you have hollow ground it you will hear a "clicking" sound. That's the sweet spot. This is a step you don't need with the jig.

Then just push the iron forward, Strive to keep the stroke even and parallel. Even with the jig, work at this.

Thicker irons (chisels) are easier to work freehand. (yes I repeated this for a reason) The "click" is much more prominent because the hollow grind is deeper or the flat is longer. 

I hope this helps some.


----------



## Woodwart (Dec 11, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> Thanks, Dave. You're right, a lot of my rust is superficial. Most of it wipes right off. In fact, a lot of it isn't even rust, there's a lot of caked on dirt and what appears to be sawdust. As far as a jig or honing guide is concerned, when I first started looking, I was kind of just eyeing this one:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202883308&R=202883308


That is the guide I was talkin about. Make sure the blade is square, and hone away.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

I started cleaning this plane up today. The rust really just wiped right off, however, there is a lot of just... gunk. Can I do something like soak the parts in Dawn or something like that, or is there a better/safer way to clean this up?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I started cleaning this plane up today. The rust really just wiped right off, however, there is a lot of just... gunk. Can I do something like soak the parts in Dawn or something like that, or is there a better/safer way to clean this up?


In my post #13 I mentioned I had used Permetex Fast Orange with Pumice and wet-dry paper. Cleans off the superficial rust and grime.

I started with Permetex and an old tooth brush to clean off the grime. Later with the wet-dry paper for the rust.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> In my post #13 I mentioned I had used Permetex Fast Orange with Pumice and wet-dry paper. Cleans off the superficial rust and grime.
> 
> I started with Permetex and an old tooth brush to clean off the grime. Later with the wet-dry paper for the rust.



I tried that, but I can't seem to get it all off. I didn't have any wet-dry paper, do I had to go buy some. I bought blocks vs paper. Is that my issue? Not being able to put enough direct pressure?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I tried that, but I can't seem to get it all off. I didn't have any wet-dry paper, do I had to go buy some. I bought blocks vs paper. Is that my issue? Not being able to put enough direct pressure?


I would get some wet-dry paper. As this is used the particles make a slurry which assists in the sanding. It does not take a lot of pressure.

Start with e.g., 100 or 120 grit. You will feel and hear when this gets smooth, and time to go to the next finer grit.

You can also use the wet-dry paper and e.g., WD-40 for the fluid. Same action, but no issues of rust stains.

Edit - for the crevices and corners, I use the Permetex and an old toothbrush. If you have a small brass brush this can also be used. You can also use wire wool, just not as easy to get into some of the corners.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

I use penetrating oil (i have some cases from a previous life) to clean them up first. You could also soak them in dawn or other type of detergent, just don't leave them long enough to rust them some more.

I don't use wet-dry paper, but Dave is correct, it is one way to approach the problem. I use a brass wire wheel. You can find smaller ones to chuck in a drill. You can also use regular sand paper for the flat area's. Any way of getting rid of the rust will typically work.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

Sorry it's been so long, but I haven't gotten around to the plane until the last couple days. We had a medical emergency with our daughter, and I had to take some time away from everything. However, I cleaned it all up, cleaned up pretty easily, too. Not perfect, not as nicely as a lot of you guys do, but still not bad. However, now I have a dilemma. 

I tried to use it today for the first time, and this being the first time I've ever used a plane. My issue is that instead of creating these long, beautiful curls that you all create with your planes, I'm getting lots of little shavings, almost dust-like. Is my blade too full? Is my plane not set up properly? I'm not sure what to do with it, but it's kind of discouraging. I'm not one to be defeated easily, I'm sure it's an easy fix, just a bit of a setback.


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

typically "dust like" means "not sharp"


----------



## timetestedtools (Aug 23, 2012)

Here is a blog for tuning http://timetestedtools.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/tuning-it-up-bench-plane-style/


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I tried to use it today for the first time, and this being the first time I've ever used a plane. My issue is that instead of creating these long, beautiful curls that you all create with your planes, I'm getting lots of little shavings, almost dust-like. Is my blade too full? Is my plane not set up properly? I'm not sure what to do with it, but it's kind of discouraging. I'm not one to be defeated easily, I'm sure it's an easy fix, just a bit of a setback.


Sorry to hear about family emergency. Sometimes "life" does get in the way of our hobbies. I hope the daughter is now fine.

It is not easy to give a remote diagnosis and especially without pictures.

It is could be one or more root causes but sounds like the blade is dull.

If you did not sharpen the blade, I recommend you do so. It is common in a restore that a blade was originally not sharpened for a long time, or was badly sharpened.

Blade sharpening is so important, it is best to not assume, since you cannot tweak other settings to get around sharpening.

If you do not know how to sharpen, send me a private message and I will provide my address so you can send me the blade and I will sharpen for you.

I also sharpen the front edge of the cap iron. You need a good contact between cap iron and the back of the blade to prevent shavings from getting underneath. Mostly trying to get this flat more than sharp.

Once the blade is sharp, you can then follow the steps in Timetestedtools blog.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

I tried sharpening the blade, however, it was freehand using some directions I found on the Internet. There's a 95% chance I either didn't do it right, or didn't do it well enough. Would something this simple really be able to help? http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/36448/plane-iron-sharpening-jig

Also, Dave, thank you very much for your offer. It is quite generous. I just may end up taking you up on it.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I tried sharpening the blade, however, it was freehand using some directions I found on the Internet. There's a 95% chance I either didn't do it right, or didn't do it well enough. Would something this simple really be able to help? http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/36448/plane-iron-sharpening-jig
> 
> Also, Dave, thank you very much for your offer. It is quite generous. I just may end up taking you up on it.


Some of the folks on the forum and other experts are able to sharpen free hand.

I have not yet developed the muscle memory to get a consistent bevel and square edge by hand.

The Fine Woodworking jig is better than by hand, but Chris Curl has been happy with his recent purchase of a Robert Larson jig, only about $11.

See his thread on the jig.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f11/robert-larson-honing-guide-47832/


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*A recent tuning*

This is a plane of a friend. A UK Stanley. It was my friend's fathers so has a lot of sentimental value.

My friend asked if I would tune.

I lapped the bottom sufficient to be flat around the mouth, and sharpened the blade.

This was either never sharpened, or had not been sharpened for decades.

The bevel was good, the edge was mostly square, slightly off on one side, likely due to uneven wear.

A few minutes ago I just adjusted the blade and then did a test on my scrap piece of 2x4.

Nice full consistent shaving. Good blade.









I like using the same piece of test wood since I can then see how well one plane stacks up against others.

This plane is now making more consistent shavings than some of my others. I may have to go back and lap the soles of the others, or re-check the sharpening.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

I wish I could get my plane to do that! What do you use to sharpen?


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

gmiller0605 said:


> I wish I could get my plane to do that! What do you use to sharpen?


I use a jig. Others are able to sharpen by hand. I am not yet able to do so. At present the jig is my way to get consistency.

When I need to create a clean and straight edge, I start with an Atoma diamond plate. I used to start with 80 grit wet-dry paper, but the Atoma is working well.

Once I get a sufficient bevel and a straight edge, I then go to a granite slab and work through the grits, starting at 120 and working up to 2400.

Some people like to go to e.g., 30,000 grit waterstone.

Different strokes for different folks.

The jig does allow me to get a flat bevel a straight edge, and a square edge.


----------



## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*For gmiller0605*

gmiller0605 sent his plane to me to see if anything wrong other than the blade potentially needing to be sharpened.

I received the plane today, a Stanley No. 5C.

Nice restoration, cleaned up well, sole had been lapped and most things were in good shape.

The blade did need to be sharpened consistently. 

I also flattened the front edge of the cap iron. I found this is often overlooked and the cap iron must have intimate contact with the blade for the entire width of the blade, or else shavings will force themselves under the cap iron, then the plane will skip.

Posting a picture so gmiller0605 can see the results. I know he is eager to get his plane back. :laughing:

Nice consistent and fluffy shavings. I taped one alongside so he can see the consistency of the shavings.









I have a Stanley No. 7C. Not used often. Sighting down the sole to set the lateral adjustment reminded me that I do prefer a smooth sole, it is much easier for my eyes to sight the blade with a smooth sole.


----------



## gmiller0605 (Dec 29, 2012)

A huge thanks to Dave for helping me out with my first plane. I tried sharpening the iron by hand before I sent it to him. It was kind of a disaster. He took that and made it wonderful! 

Thanks Dave!


----------

