# building a crib and not get sued?



## GISer3546 (Jan 30, 2013)

I have a friend who is having a baby soon and is lacking the $300+ for a crib. Being both a friend and a woodworker I offered to build her one. I did some googleing and found the list of government regulations regarding dimensions, so many regulations the plans pretty much wrote themselves. Problem is my paranoid side imagines something terrible happening and me getting sued. Has anyone else dealt with this? Is there a standard way for me to follow the gov provided guidelines and not be held liable?


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I think that if you are asking this question you have a problem. As you noted the regulations are many and varied. If you do not know what you are doing you can easily run into a problem.

There are many baby cribs on the market that sell for less than $300. Work with your friend and buy her a crib that will satisfy her.

George


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Another alternative would be to shop for a used one, the price would be more affordable and she would still be getting an approved product. Even if the crib is purchased used any recalls with improved components will still be in effect.


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## GISer3546 (Jan 30, 2013)

All cribs with drop sides have just been recalled. That along with new testing regulations have take nearly all used cribs off the market.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Personally I think you could build one and not worry. If this is a really good friend they will greatly appreciate it. I would worry about certain things.

Regulations are there to protect the child from bad design for sure. Mostly the dropping sides and spindle spacing or a combination of both. I would talk with your friend after you have a design together and have them aware of your concerns. Not the part of getting sued as much as making a truly safe crib. 

Solid back and sides with a semi fixed spindle front would be a good safe design. By semi fixed I mean maybe the top so many inches can fold out to allow easy access to get the baby in and out. That fold out part needs to ave a goo locking mechanism. The other concern I have heard of is the mattress coming up and the baby getting stuck under it. A proper fitting mattress with maybe som Velcro straps on the sheets to hold it tight to the bottom/springs. 

Anything can be overcome but if you include your friend in the decision process you would be better served. Having then sign off on the design and any agreement could also help in some cases. Me personally I would not need that for my friends. Again my concern would be building a safe crib for the babies sake because that's what matters.

Just my opinion.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

while i'm sure the regulations apply to people/companies who intend to make them and sell them, it is possible that those are the only entities that need to worry about following them.

that said, it is obviously a good idea to make the safest thing you can, especially for a friend's baby.

i would be very surprised if they can stop you from making a bed (or crib) for your own child or someone close to you.

and if you believe that the person for whom you might be making this crib would sue you, then you might have reason to believe that person is not the friend you think he or she it.


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 16, 2013)

I've not build a crib so I would be more concerned about the why of the law suit. If she sued, it would likely mean that something really bad happened to the baby. That is something I could not live with. Give her the money to buy a used one that meets current standards.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Chris Curl said:


> while i'm sure the regulations apply to people/companies who intend to make them and sell them, it is possible that those are the only entities that need to worry about following them.
> 
> that said, it is obviously a good idea to make the safest thing you can, especially for a friend's baby.
> 
> ...


All to often you never know the inner character of a friend/colleague/etc. until the situation changes. Many people have learned this lesson the hard way. (note: character is not really the word I want to use. I am just not sure of the correct word.)

And, you never know what an ambulance chases can talk a person into doing.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Technically in this country regardless of how the bed is made there is nothing you can do to free yourself of liability other than not make the bed. If it were me, I would compare the government specifications you have with some beds in the stores and go ahead and build it. If you have it within current industry standards they would have a hard time getting a contingency attorney to take the case and if they don't have enough money to buy a bed they sure don't have money for a lawyer.


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## GoIrish (Jan 29, 2012)

I made the crib for my boys before all the changes to the rules. It had an edible finish (good since I had two chewers), drop side, slats with very tight spacing, tight spacing for the mattress, and no finials or gaps along the top that could catch a blanket. I saw commercial ones that could have hung a baby if they got caught in a blanky and it hooked to the top.

It was strong enough to hold two adults and the toddler with the front removed used like a small day bed. Some of the cribs we looked at seemed like they might come down if a toddler started jumping in it.

While you are probably able to build a better crib that what is available of something happens you could get sued and it may not be by the family. The insurance company may come after you for medical bills even if the family doesn't. If you are worried about that don't build it.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> All to often you never know the inner character of a friend/colleague/etc. until the situation changes. Many people have learned this lesson the hard way. (note: character is not really the word I want to use. I am just not sure of the correct word.)
> 
> And, you never know what an ambulance chases can talk a person into doing.
> 
> George


yep. sad, but true.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Technically in this country regardless of how the bed is made there is nothing you can do to free yourself of liability other than not make the bed. If it were me, I would compare the government specifications you have with some beds in the stores and go ahead and build it. If you have it within current industry standards they would have a hard time getting a contingency attorney to take the case and if they don't have enough money to buy a bed they sure don't have money for a lawyer.


If something happened to the baby there would be a line up of ambulance chasers more than willing to take the case for a percent of the settlement.

My daughter bought a used brand name crib, contacted the manufacturer and was sent an update kit.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

If you are worried about being sued. lock yourself in your house and nothing leaves.
If you get brave and want to enter the real world, read the gov't guidelines and take some measurements from real cribs. The most critical measurement is probably the spacing of the bars. Then see what most cribs are made of and question the 'why' of it. If you are using something out of the ordinary, do a study on the 'why not' most cribs are not made of that wood. Toxicity maybe?


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## Ibangwood (Feb 25, 2010)

You can def build one, think about it, did they regulations way back when an how the hell do people think we have made it this far, build away!


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

You know all this worrying about getting sued crap makes me sick. I know it's a reality and it is what it is. If I make something it is built right and safe. I would not associate myself with anyone that would consider suing me for something unless I was truly negligent. In which case I would direct them to my insurance company on my own anyway. 

My youngest was horse playing at a friends house their 300 lb kid that plays football fell on my 170 lb son breaking his jar in two places. If the roles were reversed I would have insisted on either using my homeowners policy or paying there deductible for healthcare insurance. Not only did they do neither they didn't even ask how he was or show any concern. I could have sued but I figure its a life's lesson for my son on how not to choose friends. It didn't hurt that we have excellent insurance because the bills were over 10k. After seeing all the stupid things teenage kids can do and having three of them myself, I did up my liability insurance to protect what little I do have. However I hate the talk about suing friends or worrying about it happening to you. As I said earlier worry about it being safe not about getting sued. Personally I look for positive things because it makes you feel better. We hear or see so much negative crap anyway its no wonder everyone is always in a bad mood.


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## rcabinet12 (Mar 28, 2013)

I built two cribs for my boys and never even looked at the standards. I did what I felt was safe and I have never warried about anything happening. Gather your design and talk it over with your friend then think through your design and child proof it.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Totally Freaking Amazing!
Everyone here is talking about law suits and no one has thought of what stimulates the lawsuit - a childs death. I guess the childs safety comes second to the all important law suit.
There are regulations and regulations for a reason. Little unimportant stuff like lead based paint, spacing of the bars so an infant cant get his head caught and possibly choke himself, stuff like that. 
I don't worry about lawsuits, but I am concerned about safety.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Tony, If you REALLY think we aren't worried about makeing sure the baby is safe, you should go back and re-read the first few replies before you get all high-and-mighty on us.


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry Chris, I just didnt notice it.


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## amalina (Apr 1, 2013)

*Baby Bed*

My second wood working project was a baby bed for my 1st son, ended up being for all 3 boys. I will try and find pics. 

Me building the bed was expensive compared to a cheap walmart bed. I used my own design. 

Ends were raised panel with the sides being mortised rails about 1.5" apart. the top 3/7 folded down. The mattress platform was made so it could be adjusted by height. I made sure it held by standing in it. I expect I exceeded the US govy requirements. I just decided to build it strong and with no gaps. Biggest problem was making sure bedding went all around it did and is now a family heirloom. I used black walnut, stain was watco Danish Oil


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

If it is not an item of Trade, then none of those burdensome pointless evil regulations apply.

If this is a gift you are unburdened by regs - period. Or at least arguably so. 


If you plan to sell it you may - or not - fall into some carve out for small time producers as it regards some set of regs or another. 


But the regs and the idea of a lawsuit are two different things. 

Government won't know you are making cribs and selling them at flea markets, craft fairs, Ebay, or to your neighbors unless your market saturation reaches some level where they'd notice. I submit that flea markets craft shows and neighborhood sales won't ever reach that level.


However a lawsuit could possibly arise if the child got hurt and the parents surmised that something about your work was involved. 
Then they might sue you, but if you are mostly worthless what would they get? A House with a mortgage over it? That would mean they would become an unsecured creditor and they'd be in the far far far back of the line behind everybody else and I can assure you the Bank won't leave anything on the table for the others. 

Garnish your wages? All states have rules and they can't get much. 
In the end the cost of suing you would never pay for itself and they'd be spending 20 to 100 Gees on a lawsuit with no way to pay for the lawyers or the other huge expense - - EXPERTS - and certainly no way to get any meaningful recovery from you. 
They won't be able to sue you without engineers and safety experts testifying about how this dimension or that construction was the cause of the injury and those people cost astonishing sums of money. And of course in the USA each litigant pays his own costs of a lawsuit unless there is a statute that says otherwise. Soooooooo

So odds are they'd not sue. It just wouldn't be worth it. 

If I built a crib for any child it would not have any moving parts to pinch fingers, The finish would be a water based finish like Pre-Cat 181, There'd be no openings large enough for an infant to get it's head jammed in , and the sides would be high enough that no amount of Olympic infant athleticism would get the little rug rat over the side. 

Some of the regs are actually based in research about how kids get hurt so you might want to use them anyway.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Build it to regulations and don't worry about being sued. Do your friend the favor you want to do. Life is too short to live in fear of frivolity. If you build it to regulation (and even if you don't, in many cases) the baby will be more than safe enough to not worry. The reality is drop sides aren't particularly unsafe. We bought a used drop side crib that is perfectly steady with me standing in it. The bed has literally been passed through 5 or 6 families, some 20+ kids and never once had a problem. I've never met anyone who had a drop side crib with a problem. (My brother did rattle his crib enough to drop the bottom out, though, and proceeded to scare the crap out of my mom one morning.) The truth is drop side cribs just aren't en vogue any more and "convertible" beds are. People lobbied to get drop side cribs banned. My cynical side says it was manufacturers who wanted to gut the used market of a ton of beds that they weren't able to sell and they just wanted more profit.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

There have been some very strange and unlikely deaths associated with baby cribs. I won't build one for anyone. I don't think the human mind can't think of all the possibilities there are for injury.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

frankp said:


> Build it to regulations


*I don't believe that he can. That's the whole point. * The regulations have mandatory rules about anything and everything sold into a market where children are the target user of the item. 

Among these rules are mandatory requirements that the manufacturer pay for independant testing of all materials and finishes to ensure that there are none of the prohibited substances like lead. 

The problem with top down government mandates - in spite of the best of intentions - is that they are crude and clumsy instruments that sweep everyone up into their ambit leaving the guy who makes things for the craft fair market in an impossible position because he could never manage to pay the enormous sums needed to comply with the regulations.

Back when these rules were promulgated I read the federal statutes. They simply had no provision and no contemplation of the little guy here in the USA. The assumption was that only huge wealthy corporations were making anything for kids. ERGO there was no holding back about imposing costs on the makers. The intent was to prevent the sort of poisonous crap that was coming in from China with lead and cadmium all over it. Because of misguided treaties the congress was unable to make a law just for China imports too.





> I don't think the human mind can't think of all the possibilities there are for injury.


Ain't that the truth.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

Cliff said:


> However a lawsuit could possibly arise if [,,,yadda yadda yadda ...] unsecured creditor [ yadda yadda yadda ]cost of suing you would never pay for itself [ yadda yadda yadda] - - EXPERTS - and certainly no way to get any meaningful recovery from you.
> [yadda yadda yadda]engineers and safety experts t[yadda yadda yadda]
> 
> So odds are they'd not sue. It just wouldn't be worth it.



That said here is how the little guy who is pretty much worthless gets caught up in that mess.


Baby dies or is crippled in some accident. Horrified enraged furious agonizing parents want to do something so they sue. 
When they go to do so they find that the law forces them to name EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who might possibly be connected no matter how tangentially. 
(_((((Meanwhile every one is blaming the lawyers who - mind you - did not hurt the baby and did not tell any one to sue any one. They just called to do the heavy lifting of the legal action.)))_)

But because the law forces the parents to implead everyone, everyone possible gets named as a defendant. Hell maybe the even milkman gets named. 

Rules like that arise because the courts don't like it when their dockets are all snaggled up with litigants who keep filing lawsuits on the same set of facts against different parties trying to find some one with deep pockets. So the courts created rules that ya gotta bring everyone together all at once to hash it all out. And that's how the craft fair guy ended up in a high stakes lawsuit.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Cliff said:


> *I don't believe that he can. That's the whole point. * The regulations have mandatory rules about anything and everything sold into a market where children are the target user of the item.
> 
> Among these rules are mandatory requirements that the manufacturer pay for independant testing of all materials and finishes to ensure that there are none of the prohibited substances like lead.
> 
> ...


Of course he can build to regulations. It's trivially easy to do so or they wouldn't be there in the first place and manufacturers would have lobbied the laws away a long time ago. Wood doesn't have to have "fire retardant" treatments like bedding/clothing materials do. The only real regulations that are going to impact him would be mechanical design specs, spacing of slats, no drop sides, etc etc. 

As you said before he's not trying to sell this stuff. As such, the independent testing wouldn't be applicable. "Food safe" finishes are already independently tested and you can get ahold of the results so that's a non-issue.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

frankp said:


> Of course he can build to regulations. It's trivially easy to do so or they wouldn't be there in the first place and manufacturers would have lobbied the laws away a long time ago. Wood doesn't have to have "fire retardant" treatments like bedding/clothing materials do. The only real regulations that are going to impact him would be mechanical design specs, spacing of slats, no drop sides, etc etc.
> 
> As you said before he's not trying to sell this stuff. As such, the independent testing wouldn't be applicable. "Food safe" finishes are already independently tested and you can get ahold of the results so that's a non-issue.


Maybe you are not aware of the hundreds of deaths associated with cribs. ANYTHING can happen. Too tall too short. Baby reaches something normally out of reach. mattress too thick too thin. Fit not perfect. It's not a good idea. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

frankp said:


> Of course he can build to regulations. It's trivially easy to do so or they wouldn't be there in the first place and manufacturers would have lobbied the laws away a long time ago. [...]


That is an awfully large pile of wild unfounded assumptions have there. 



> Wood doesn't have to have "fire retardant" treatments like bedding/clothing materials do.


Who said anything about fire retardant.



> The only real regulations that are going to impact him would be mechanical design specs, spacing of slats, no drop sides, etc etc.


Clearly, you have not read the law. 
Here is just some of it:
http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/109515/cpsia.pdf
Where I spoke about third party testing of finishes I was referring to Section 102
Read about Cribs in Section 104
Read 'em and weep. 
They even tell you about all the record keeping you gotta do





> As you said before he's not trying to sell this stuff.


I didn't say that. I said *IF*. I don't know what the proposed arrangements might be. If he is giving it as a gift then it is not (arguably anyway) being injected into the stream of commerce. I say arguably because the law is never so easy to suss out as the lay folk think. 

But then you never read Wickard v. Filburn either so you don't understand how misguided overbearing constitutionally defective government has managed to extend the whole "stream of commerce" idea to the backyard garden and pretty much anything you can imagine. 

I'll sum up the salient part for ya:
Farmer Filburn had some pigs which only his itty bitty family ate. He fed them wheat which he grew on his property and did not sell to any one.

So along came the government with a regulation on wheat commerce (the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938) and hauled him into court over his wheat that he fed to his pigs which he fed to his family. 
The Great Depression was on and never letting a crisis go to waste, the government was flexing it's muscles. And - - well - - when the US Supreme Court was done with it they held that Farmer Filburn's wheat was an item in the stream of commerce because the wheat he grew meant there was wheat that he was not being forced to purchased and that was the hook they used to hold that he was in fact violating the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938. 








> As such, the independent testing wouldn't be applicable. "Food safe" finishes are already independently tested and you can get ahold of the results so that's a non-issue.


I'm going to be real interested in where you went to law school. 
Read the regulation.


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## ctjester (Dec 15, 2010)

Ofcourse safety should be your first concern, but if you elect to build one anyway look up and find a "Release of Liability" form on the web and have them sign it. It will afford you some protection....


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## Troyscustom (Jan 7, 2013)

There have been a lot of good points on this thread and a lot of people that seem like they are taking it to the extreme one way or the other. All I can say is what I did, which was take measurements off a existing store bought bed and used them to make one. Mine ended up a lot stronger and better quality than the boughten one, never did worry about rules and regulations just wanted to make a bed for my youngest daughter.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

ctjester said:


> Ofcourse safety should be your first concern, but if you elect to build one anyway look up and find a "Release of Liability" form on the web and have them sign it. It will afford you some protection....



No it won't. It'll just give the other party something to argue uphill against. Take all of five minutes or less. But if a child is hurt, the jury will not be willing to entertain any release and indemnification no matter how well written it might be. And of course the child won't have signed it. Additionally a jury might consider that the guy presenting this disclosure did it for guilty reasons. That is that: He knew he had a bad product and was playing CYA with paper at the risk of a child. That's how I'd argue it to the jury. They'd buy it too. 



Another thing is the notion of using documents and language from the internet. It's a terrible idea.
It's bad enough that people think they can use things like Legal Zoom and Nolo for anything more important than traffic tickets and incorporation papers, but to tell oneself that that stuff can be used for more serious things is the height of foolhardy risk taking. 

The law is terribly complicated. People think they can read a statute follow a formula and that tell themselves that they can understand things, but the reading they would have to do is way far beyond the mere language of a statute. One needs to read (and understand) al the case law on that topic to understand how the courts have interpreted it, how other litigants have argued abvout it and what the courts said about their efforts. This is the onlyway one can understand how a law might end up being applied to any given set of facts and circumstances. 

Another myth perpetuated by things like Legal Zoom and Nolo is the mistaken belief that all a litigant has to do is present the proper form with the right words on it. Nothing could be further from the truth. Attorneys trust this sort of menial crap to secretaries and Paralegalss, but they don't entrust them with the complicated legal analysis, the construction of the theory of the case, the transactions, nor how to manage the courtroom. 


Further complicating things is the fact the each state is different. So if one has something that applies in one state there is nothing to assure the person that it will apply in another state. So you need to be expert on that area of law in the state where it is to be applied.


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## Kelvartis (Apr 2, 2013)

Troyscustom said:


> There have been a lot of good points on this thread and a lot of people that seem like they are taking it to the extreme one way or the other. All I can say is what I did, which was take measurements off a existing store bought bed and used them to make one. Mine ended up a lot stronger and better quality than the boughten one, never did worry about rules and regulations just wanted to make a bed for my youngest daughter.


 
^problem solved

no moving parts, no dangerous spacing, solid back/sides, sized matched to the matress, built better than particle board. I'd have done it if we didn't get a used one cheap.

Who wants their heirloom posessions handed down to be made of MDF and lick'n'stick wood picture?


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## sjsak1 (Aug 22, 2013)

While not a crib, I have built one cradle for my grandson so far and I am currently working on a glider cradle for the second grandson. I have not looked at regs, but I have definately taken safety into consideration (spacing of spindles, mattress, etc. The first cradle got the lock mechanism (dowel with a cap thru support leg and into lower cradle frame). As long as safety is first and foremost, I don't see a problem. I have one rule if any....I won't put anyone else's kids into something I would not put mine in.


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