# To ebay or new?



## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm not sure what to do. I've done a big of reading in Hand Tool Essentials this week. I am really thinking hard about ditching my Delta Model 10 contractor saw for a workbench and hand saws. Now, all I have right now is a Veritas dovetail saw. I know I'll need a rip saw, crosscut saw, and tenon saw. I don't have the cash for Rob Cosmans saws. I've thought about eBay, but as always that can be tricky. I know the Lynx saws from woodcraft get good reviews, but an old Disston on eBay is 1/3 if the price. What advice or experience do you have about your saw buying new, used, and restoration? Was it worth it to restore an antique?


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

islandboy85 said:


> I'm not sure what to do. I've done a big of reading in Hand Tool Essentials this week. I am really thinking hard about ditching my Delta Model 10 contractor saw for a workbench and hand saws. Now, all I have right now is a Veritas dovetail saw. I know I'll need a rip saw, crosscut saw, and tenon saw. I don't have the cash for Rob Cosmans saws. I've thought about eBay, but as always that can be tricky. I know the Lynx saws from woodcraft get good reviews, but an old Disston on eBay is 1/3 if the price. What advice or experience do you have about your saw buying new, used, and restoration? Was it worth it to restore an antique?


I think you should be leary of buying any "projects". I'm way guilty of this myself - buying junk because it is cheap, spending a ton of time and shop consumables fixing it before I can even use it. Gently used is a whole other story. I'd just recommend you be very realistic with your goals and skill set. 

There are some reasonable tool deals to be found on ebay. I've seen guys selling refurbed hand saws on ebay which I thought looked to be a very good deal. They weren't the sexy disstons with the thumbhole but they were sharp, straight, fair priced users.


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

Here is an example of what looks like a fair deal to me;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clean-1950-...115?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d161157bb

as compared to;

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000844/18355/Lynx-WCLH26-Hand-SawCrosscut-Saw-26-x-8-TPI.aspx


You could perhaps find that same Disston on craigslist or elsewhere for cheaper and hopefully it is straight. Either through purchasing the tools to tune it or having someone else do it, plan on spending $20+ dollars. 

Or you could buy one tuned from someone who knows that they are doing and spend that time building your work bench or actually woodworking. 

This coming from a guy with three Disston projects saws who participated in the recent lynx group buy largely to get a saw to fix the handle on one of his Disston project saws. I'm a moron.


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## Tom King (Nov 22, 2013)

It depends on if you can sharpen one or not. I can sharpen saws, so I just can't bring myself to spend $175 and up on a backsaw. the picture in the link is one I got off ebay for 25 bucks plus whatever shipping was. I didn't spend much time restoring it. 

It cut okay like it was, but was slow. The 2-1/4" long tenon in the picture took around 14 strokes (had a couple of hundred to do) like it came, and after I sharpened it, stroke count dropped to around 6.

Most of the new ones have some sort of gimmick to make them easy to start-not too sharp, smaller teeth on the end, less rake (which makes it cut slower). Chances are, if you can sharpen one, you can also start one okay, so the easy starting gimmicks aren't important.

Easy to start may be a good thing to start with, but it seems to me that it also may make it seem like you are dependent on it.

I have one that I bought new in the '70s, but the other 5 in the box came off of ebay, or out of junk stores. I wouldn't bother with one that is rusted enough to have pitting on the blade, a crook in it, or a handle that is too beat up. 

Even though I had intentions of restoring the ones I've bought, I never got around to it. You can see in the picture that this one has paint splattered on it. Those usually go for less money.

http://www.historic-house-restoration.com/images/windows3_003.JPG

I was assuming this was about backsaws, but I have other opinions on regular handsaws too, which are a little different. I like Sandvik series 270 through 288 for those-best steel that you can get sharper and they stay sharp longer, even though I do have some others too.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Well, I will say, I have not tried to sharpen a saw yet, but I am an aircraft mechanic by trade. I am pretty used to working with files to do precision fitting. I'm probably better at sharpening a saw than driving it  

So, I picked up that you're not impressed by the Lynx saw. What was it you didn't like about it?


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## Tom King (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm sure anyone with an A&P license can learn to sharpen a handsaw! Operating a file seems to be the hardest thing for people trying to learn to pick up.

I hadn't looked at that Lynx saw. I just did, and I was surprised to see that there is a manufacturer still using taper ground blades. Most of the smaller companies, that sell saws for twice that price don't.

The price is not bad on it either. They stopped making the Sandvik saws 30 or 40 years ago that I like, but they can still be found, sometimes new in the sleeve.

That Lynx looks like a decent deal to me. Coat it with CRC 3.36 if you get it, and every time after you use it, and it will stay looking nice.

That and a D8 rip saw would be a good set to start with for sizing boards. The thumbhole on the D8 comes in handy for the other hand when you start to get an arm pump ripping a board.

I thought the discussion was about backsaws to start with. I have 18 different regular handsaws- some sharpened with different tooth geometry for different purposes and woods.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Tom King said:


> I'm sure anyone with an A&P license can learn to sharpen a handsaw! Operating a file seems to be the hardest thing for people trying to learn to pick up. I hadn't looked at that Lynx saw. I just did, and I was surprised to see that there is a manufacturer still using taper ground blades. Most of the smaller companies, that sell saws for twice that price don't. The price is not bad on it either. They stopped making the Sandvik saws 30 or 40 years ago that I like, but they can still be found, sometimes new in the sleeve. That Lynx looks like a decent deal to me. Coat it with CRC 3.36 if you get it, and every time after you use it, and it will stay looking nice. That and a D8 rip saw would be a good set to start with for sizing boards. The thumbhole on the D8 comes in handy for the other hand when you start to get an arm pump ripping a board. I thought the discussion was about backsaws to start with. I have 18 different regular handsaws- some sharpened with different tooth geometry for different purposes and woods.


Backsaws, western saws, any saws. I wish we had more antique tools here. If I lived back in the Northeast it wouldn't be so bad. I haven't seen much here in Dallas, though that's not to say thee isn't a place here I've missed. I just like to look at tools and handle them before buying them. That's what scares me a little bit with eBay.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I have bought old and new. My new saws are all Veritas saws. I have their dovetail, crosscut carsass and tomorrow the two new tenon saws arrive. They are on special intro price, $175 for the rip and crosscut until Dec 26th. I have old ones too, disston, Geo. Bishop, and they work great when sharpened. A straight plate is very important and often hard to tell on Ebay unless the seller includes a pic of the plate line.


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

I had a similar dilemma when I decided to get into hand work. New (premium) saws are out of my reach. I started finding saws at junk shops (not antique stores). You have to watch for the kind of places that have tons of rusty stuff out front. You'll have to cull through a lot of dogs to find ones worth fixin. But there is a lot out there. 









I've acquired these over about a year.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

ACP said:


> I have bought old and new. My new saws are all Veritas saws. I have their dovetail, crosscut carsass and tomorrow the two new tenon saws arrive. They are on special intro price, $175 for the rip and crosscut until Dec 26th. I have old ones too, disston, Geo. Bishop, and they work great when sharpened. A straight plate is very important and often hard to tell on Ebay unless the seller includes a pic of the plate line.


I was wondering why Veritas only has joinery saws. I think they'd sell plenty if saws if they also manufactured western saws.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> I had a similar dilemma when I decided to get into hand work. New (premium) saws are out of my reach. I started finding saws at junk shops (not antique stores). You have to watch for the kind of places that have tons of rusty stuff out front. You'll have to cull through a lot of dogs to find ones worth fixin. But there is a lot out there. I've acquired these over about a year.


I also scrounge junk stores for usable saws. I'm not into restoring tools, but look for ones that are easy to put into service. I have three saws that I use for stock preparation. One 5 1/2 point, one 10 point and one 12 point. All are sharpened as rip saws. With the well dried hardwoods that I use, a rip profile crosscuts without issue.


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## mavawreck (Nov 26, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> I've acquired these over about a year.


Oh man, that looks lovely.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> I had a similar dilemma when I decided to get into hand work. New (premium) saws are out of my reach. I started finding saws at junk shops (not antique stores). You have to watch for the kind of places that have tons of rusty stuff out front. You'll have to cull through a lot of dogs to find ones worth fixin. But there is a lot out there. I've acquired these over about a year.


That is an impressive collection!


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

Thank you. The OP was wanting advice on buying new or restoring. IMHO hand tool work is a lot about self reliance. I get a lot of satisfaction in putting a tool back in use that seemed doomed to the rust pile. Learning to restore these tools and sharpen them, gives me a lot more respect for the craft than buying off the shelf. My .02¢.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

islandboy85 said:


> I was wondering why Veritas only has joinery saws. I think they'd sell plenty if saws if they also manufactured western saws.


Thier joinery saws are western style, as they cut on the push stroke. On another site, the owner Rob Lee said they have reached the limit of their design with these new tenon saws and they have no plans for panel or larger style saws. The un-backed saws, if you will. All my non-joinery hand saws are oldies. They are easier, IMHO, to sharpen because of the larger teeth. I think the finest tooth I've rehab'd is 14 tpi or so. I have every intention of sharpening all my blades when they need it though, and that goes as low as 20 tpi. 

It's early, I am not sure what I am rambling about. I think vintage or new, either way you win. I'd get a mix of both if you can. Rehabing the oldies will teach so much about the small things with saws. Rake, fleam, how does this fleam work with this wood, how does this rake work with this wood, do I like more or less rake, do I like rehabing saws? Plus the more of us that save oldies from some "artists" brush, the better.


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

I have several saws but my favorite ended up being a cheap Irwin pull saw (dozuki style). I normally try to purchase as good of tools as I can and this was an early purchase but I find myself repeatedly reaching for it, or wishing my other saws were as sharp and easy to use. I spent a bit of money on a dovetail saw and now I wish I hadn't since I never use it. I wouldn't think you can go wrong buying new or used as long as you find something that works for you, just might take some trial and error getting there.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

islandboy85 said:


> I'm not sure what to do. I've done a big of reading in Hand Tool Essentials this week. I am really thinking hard about ditching my Delta Model 10 contractor saw for a workbench and hand saws. Now, all I have right now is a Veritas dovetail saw. I know I'll need a rip saw, crosscut saw, and tenon saw. I don't have the cash for Rob Cosmans saws. I've thought about eBay, but as always that can be tricky. I know the Lynx saws from woodcraft get good reviews, but an old Disston on eBay is 1/3 if the price. What advice or experience do you have about your saw buying new, used, and restoration? Was it worth it to restore an antique?



Three comments:

First: keep your table saw for a while. I don't have one, and I'm happy that way, but I also have a high-quality extruded straight-edge and a good circular saw. I use those for long rip cuts and breaking down sheet goods. Ripping a 2x4 by hand is easy: I'm not entirely certain I'd be willing to rip an 8' piece of 8/4 hardwood by hand. At least, not more than once.

Second: I've been quite happy with my restored saws, but I'm not picky about appearance. If it's smooth enough to cut cleanly, it's smooth enough, and if the teeth are even enough to cut well, it's jointed enough. I have two saws that I use most. The first is a roughly 6 TPI Disston rip saw, the second is around 10TPI filed crosscut, and is either Disston or Atkins (I'm blanking on which saw is which right now). I don't think I paid over $15 for either one. I also have a brand new Veritas Carcasse saw, because I got impatient waiting for a good one on eBay. It's a fantastic saw, and I don't regret it a bit.

Third: If you're going to use handsaws for breaking down stock, do yourself a favor and build a sawbench, or maybe two. I finally built one late this summer, and it was the best thing I did for my sawing skills since I sharpened that rip saw. A decent saw set (for setting teeth) is also a wise investment: I have an old Welliver 1700, given to me by a friend, and it works fine.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks for the idea of checking CL. I didn't think I'd find anything, but this guy looks promising. I'll try to head there this weekend or after Christmas to check it out. http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/4189281490.html
This looks pretty nice I think for a saw bench. http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/viewer-projects/brians-improved-saw-bench/


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

He said he is asking $35 for a Disston D8. Looking at ebay that seems like a fair price. Hopefully it's not all bent up and pitted. I'll let you guys know this weekend. Once again, thanks to everyone for your opinions.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

If the Disston is in good shape, ready to go (or at least ready to sharpen) that's not a bad price. I'd pay it happily, but then, I don't obsess about getting the lowest possible price.

I like the design of the sawbench you posted, but I feel like the one I have was simpler to build. I need a second one, so as soon as I can get into a shop again (mine is snowed in for the winter... no heat, no lights, and no electricity to get either) I'll do a build thread.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> If the Disston is in good shape, ready to go (or at least ready to sharpen) that's not a bad price. I'd pay it happily, but then, I don't obsess about getting the lowest possible price. I like the design of the sawbench you posted, but I feel like the one I have was simpler to build. I need a second one, so as soon as I can get into a shop again (mine is snowed in for the winter... no heat, no lights, and no electricity to get either) I'll do a build thread.


 I figure if I have to put work (obviously I will) into a $35 saw, than it's no different than buying a $60 cheap saw at Woodcraft. It'll take me a bunch of work too I'm sure. As far as the saw bench, I think I'll build one with a full split down he center, and one that's solid with the traditional v-cut at the end. That way I have more to choose from depending on the size of the part I'm cutting.


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

I think you would be much happier with a Classic saw than one of the cheap ones from WC. The handle will make all the difference.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

islandboy85 said:


> I figure if I have to put work (obviously I will) into a $35 saw, than it's no different than buying a $60 cheap saw at Woodcraft. It'll take me a bunch of work too I'm sure. As far as the saw bench, I think I'll build one with a full split down he center, and one that's solid with the traditional v-cut at the end. That way I have more to choose from depending on the size of the part I'm cutting.


Not entirely true. Buying a $35 Disston saw and putting work into cleaning it up and sharpening it leaves you with the equivalent of a ~$300 saw. Buying a $60 saw from Woodcraft and putting work into it leaves you with the equivalent of... maybe a $75 saw? The problem is that the materials and shaping of the tool are just plain better in the old tools.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> Not entirely true. Buying a $35 Disston saw and putting work into cleaning it up and sharpening it leaves you with the equivalent of a ~$300 saw. Buying a $60 saw from Woodcraft and putting work into it leaves you with the equivalent of... maybe a $75 saw? The problem is that the materials and shaping of the tool are just plain better in the old tools.


Ya, you are totally right. I saw proof of that on vintagesaws.com


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I see now that I mis-spoke (mis-typed?) slightly. There are new tools that are the same quality as the old ones. But they carry a price-tag similar to what those old tools did when they were new. A top-of-the-line Disston was expensive when it was new. So is a top-of-the-line modern saw.

The inexpensive saws you can buy now are mostly also cheap, which isn't ideal.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> I see now that I mis-spoke (mis-typed?) slightly. There are new tools that are the same quality as the old ones. But they carry a price-tag similar to what those old tools did when they were new. A top-of-the-line Disston was expensive when it was new. So is a top-of-the-line modern saw. The inexpensive saws you can buy now are mostly also cheap, which isn't ideal.


You didn't make any mistake. You do get what you pay for. I simply can't she'll out $250 a saw.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Yeah, I just didn't want it to sound like I was saying you can't get a good tool now, just that it costs a fortune. I'm with you... I can afford the time more easily than the money.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> Yeah, I just didn't want it to sound like I was saying you can't get a good tool now, just that it costs a fortune. I'm with you... I can afford the time more easily than the money.


It's the same with my tools for work. Craftsman wrenches are ok ish, but Mac and Snapon are way better. They also cost five times as much. I can justify spending money like that on work tools a lot easier than I can on hobby tools.


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## Bill Rhodus (Dec 17, 2013)

I addressed this issue in the following manner; I bought a $10 saw at the local antique store, reviewed saw filing techniques on the net (there is a lot of info on the net) purchased the filing/setting tools via the net and began sharpening my $10 saw. When I thought I had the ability to sharpen a useable saw, I bought a Veritas rip carcass saw (would now buy the tenon saw pair as they are on sale) for a basis of comparison, and was off to the races. Next step was to review info as to what kind of used hand saw to look for and begin building my collection. Over a period of 2-3 years, I have gotten all of the saws I need for $20-$40 each with the exception of fine toothed joinery saws.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Well, according to http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html I am now the owner of a pre 1928 D8. It obviously will need a sharpening, but all in all I think it's alright.





































It has some pitting, but mostly on the last half an inch and then a bit more between 2-3 inches from the toe. The tote is well used for sure. One if the screws is a bit proud for some reason. I'll have to see about a screwdriver that is wide enough and thin enough not to destroy the head of the screw (split but actually is what I think they're called).


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Here's a bit better picture of the proud split nut and the medallion.


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

Does the saw plate have an etch? I only ask because the handle doesn't look right for a d-8. The dome nuts don't look to be the same size as the holes. U may have a d-8 that has been re-handled.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> Does the saw plate have an etch? I only ask because the handle doesn't look right for a d-8. The dome nuts don't look to be the same size as the holes. U may have a d-8 that has been re-handled.


It is a D8 blade for sure.


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

It looks like the nuts are from late 1880s, blade is from early 1900s, and handle is a mystery. Shouldn't affect performance, but thought you might want to know. I have found a lot of saws that are pieces together. Disston made a lot of saws for other companies that used different handle patterns, but utilized same bolt pattern. Then again I could be wrong.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> It looks like the nuts are from late 1880s, blade is from early 1900s, and handle is a mystery. Shouldn't affect performance, but thought you might want to know. I have found a lot of saws that are pieces together. Disston made a lot of saws for other companies that used different handle patterns, but utilized same bolt pattern. Then again I could be wrong.


I appreciate your input. It's pretty interesting. The tote isn't loose one bit, so it doesn't bother me whether the tote is original or not. I care more about the steel. That having been said, I have noticed since getting it home that there is about a 1/4" smooth bend in the blades tarting at the midpoint of the blade.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

If it cuts straight who cares. That bend isn't too bad. I've got a few with slight curves like that and they cut just fine. Even if not, you have a nice plate to work on sharpening there.


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

Doesn't look bad in the picture. If you can bend the plate both ways, and it returns to the same curve, then it still has good tension. The thing to watch for is abrupt kinks.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

ACP said:


> If it cuts straight who cares. That bend isn't too bad. I've got a few with slight curves like that and they cut just fine. Even if not, you have a nice plate to work on sharpening there.


My thoughts exactly. I'll have to get one big o' file before I sharpen it. From what I've heard I need a file 2-3 times the tooth size. Once I get that I can start sharpening.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Do you guys know if I need a special screwdriver for removing the screws from the tote? I want to tighten them up, but I need to pull a few of them to clean out some wood that somehow is jammed underneath the heads of the screws.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

Is there a special screwdriver for these screws? The slot if very very narrow, but wide. I don't want to trash them.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

One that is thin enough to fit in it. They may be stuck. The nuts are a little different on the back side as you will see. I use an old chisel for them so I don't ruin the saw nuts/screws. It works ok.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

ACP said:


> One that is thin enough to fit in it. They may be stuck. The nuts are a little different on the back side as you will see. I use an old chisel for them so I don't ruin the saw nuts/screws. It works ok.


I guess I could get some scrap at work and make this... http://blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/saw-nut-spanner/index.html


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## EastexToolJunky (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't believe you would need a split nut driver on the saw u are working on. Dome nuts do need a thinner blade than your standard screwdriver. I used an old screwdriver and ground the blade thinner as a dedicated saw nut driver.


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## islandboy85 (Sep 17, 2011)

EastexToolJunky said:


> I don't believe you would need a split nut driver on the saw u are working on. Dome nuts do need a thinner blade than your standard screwdriver. I used an old screwdriver and ground the blade thinner as a dedicated saw nut driver.


Ah ha! I knew they looked different than split nuts, but wasn't sure what they were. I was thinking about cutting up an old putty knife blade and mounting it into a handle so that there is only a very short bit sticking out as the screwdriver end. I just don't have any screwdrivers that wide at home.


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