# Mechanics of breadboard



## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

I started asking about this in another thread but didn't want to hijack it so I made this one. I understand how to do it but I'm not understanding how it's effective. I don't get how it allows for expansion.

For example, a table with 5 boards joined into the breadboard as such:
pinned - normal - glued - normal - pinned

In the example video I watched, he used a domino and made a tight fit for the dominos in the boards and slightly larger holes in the breadboard, except for the middle one. The middle gets glued and thus cannot move. Should that center board expand it would push the others outward, which makes sense for the other domino holes in the breadboard to have a bit of wiggle room.

Now here's the part that's throwing me off, the pins. Those pins are locking the end boards in place which technically keeps the space between the end boards static. Far as I can understand a pin would be doing the exact same thing as glue unless the hole drilled through the breadboard into the domino was slightly larger than the pin inserted, which I didn't see him do in the video.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

phaelax said:


> I started asking about this in another thread but didn't want to hijack it so I made this one. I understand how to do it but I'm not understanding how it's effective. I don't get how it allows for expansion.
> 
> For example, a table with 5 boards joined into the breadboard as such:
> pinned - normal - glued - normal - pinned
> ...


You are right! In the video the dominos being glued into the end grain of the tabletop to form a tenon means it will expand or shrink from side to side. These so called tenons must have holes elongated (which he doesn't do) to allow the tenon to move within the mortice. A small dab of glue to hold the pin from falling out of the bread board is acceptable as long as the glue does not seep into the tenon. My opinion is that using dominoes would be a undersized tenon...being there is not much wood left in the tenon after elongating the hole.

Don't believe everything you see done on YouTube.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Watch this......*

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140


You can see that the "tenons" are glued into the table end, BUT the slots or mortises are elongated on the breadboard end. The allows for lateral expansion or contraction of the table across it's width. It is free to move in or out from the center pin which is glued in place. 



There Ya go! :vs_cool:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Watch this ......*



gmercer_48083 said:


> You are right! In the video the dominos being glued into the end grain of the tabletop to form a tenon means it will expand or shrink from side to side. These so called* tenons must have holes elongated (which he doesn't do*) to allow the tenon to move within the mortice. A small dab of glue to hold the pin from falling out of the bread board is acceptable as long as the glue does not seep into the tenon. My opinion is that using dominoes would be a undersized tenon...being there is not much wood left in the tenon after elongating the hole.
> 
> Don't believe everything you see done on YouTube.



Don't believe everything you read here either .....

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=122

He DOES elongate the breadboard mortises. You can see how much longer they are than the mortises for the tabletop end. 

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140
> 
> 
> You can see that the "pins" are glued into the table end, BUT the slots or mortises are elongated on the breadboard end. The allows for lateral expansion or contraction of the table across it's width. It is free to move in or out from the center pin which is glued in place.
> ...


When he drilled the hole for the pin, he did not elongate the hole...so in effect it is the same as gluing...not a good thing. He should have drilled the holes, then remove the breadboard to expose the tenon (domino), then he should have elongated the hole in the domino (tenon). At that point re install the breadboard, with glue on the center tenon only, and add the pins at that point.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

Yes he left room for the tenons to move in the mortices...but by not elongating the holes he effectively locked them to the breadboard which would prevent them from moving as required.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This makes no sense to me ....*



gmercer_48083 said:


> Yes he left room for the tenons to move in the mortices...but by not *elongating the holes* he effectively locked them to the breadboard which would prevent them from moving as required.


OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.


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## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The video was OK right up until .....*



woodnthings said:


> OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.





phaelax said:


> Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.



Everything was fine until he drilled the tenons and pinned them in place which defeated the whole process of elongating the mortises. I don't understand why the pins/dowels were even used. Good that you saw that and pointed it out. I will add a comment to the video and bring that up. That's when I saw that there were other comments which said the same thing.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

In my opinion I don't think the guy making the video knows the first thing about wood or woodworking. A table top as large as that will shrink more than 1/8" over the next 30 years and there is insufficient slack in the dominos to allow for that. 

This is the only method I would endorse for a breadboard end.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*You are not crazy!!!*



phaelax said:


> Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.


*You are not crazy*...and it would seem all the "old hats" here are in complete agreement on this one...!!!

This is just one more example of..."Boobtube expert"...coping what some other "expert" on "Boob-tube" is doing...and in reality none of them actually are "experts" at all but felt compelled to make a video...

None of them (or very few) understand fully what they are doing and just coping things they see others do without context or understanding from within a given craft...

I would note..*.for clarity*...that I build many of my "production run" tables in a very similar manner with exactly the same tool...The speed is incredible and accuracy is excellent!!! 

However, *the standard domino is not recommend*

1. You have to make a custom free toggle (aka domino) to accommodate the enlarged hole for the draw pin (aka peg-trunnel) that holds on the Bread Board.

2. No glue is necessary if one wishes to only use joinery...


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> In my opinion I don't think the guy making the video knows the first thing about wood or woodworking. A table top as large as that will shrink more than 1/8" over the next 30 years and there is insufficient slack in the dominos to allow for that.
> 
> This is the only method I would endorse for a breadboard end.


Exactly, can't illustrate it better than that, unfortunately there are always going to be those that follow along with these online experts that have no understanding of how wood behaves.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ok, fine!*

Just so's you all know, I'm not posting another You Video for the rest of this year! That's it for me. I'm done! :wallbash:


:sorcerer::vs_balloons::vs_wine:Happy New Year.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*A good video...*

I do like some of the videos on Youtube...Some are really good and don't try to "teach" just show an example of a given method...

In support of Steve Neul's example and an example of a good "Youtuber" (in my view of it) here is a video showing the basic method...but of course there are many other "good" methods...


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> Just so's you all know, I'm not posting another You Video for the rest of this year! That's it for me. I'm done! :wallbash:
> 
> 
> :sorcerer::vs_balloons::vs_wine:Happy New Year.


And I am not going to watch any more that you have posted for the rest of this year! 

Happy New Year Everybody!


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## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

24 hours ago, I didn't even know what a breadboard was. I've seen it before but never knew it had a name. I want to make a table now, just as soon as I finish my round one.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

All the breadboard end does is reduce the chance of the top warping on a thin top. If the table you make the top is an inch thick or thicker you don't really need it. A thicker top would bend the breadboard end if it warped. Then there is problems associated with the breadboard end. Since they are only glued in the center the joints are prone to break causing a needed repair. Then when the top shrinks the breadboard end will be sticking out past the table. When I had an antique repair shop I had to grind most tables off that had the breadboard end and touch up the finish. Some the breadboard ends were sticking out about 3/16" on each side.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Locking Large Wood Diaphragm projects with stiffeners...Thick or Thin...*

I am more than open and eager to read/hear what others have designed, and/or built regarding large table tops, floors, bridge spans and the related...

From my experience some form of stiffener mush be applied...*irregardless of thickness*...of the diaphragm size, be it joined wood pieces wood, large slabs, or even logs in hole, "corduroy" or "puncheon" in style. When these are locked together to form a monolithic diaphragm of wood, some type of stiffening members is most often require to arrest warp, distortion or other related challenge...

Thick or thin...*Bread Board Ends*...*Stiffening Splines*...*Apron Supports*...*Rails* and related modalities are more than applicable in large diaphragm woodworking, be it a single massive slab of wood or a series of joined wood pieces. 

I can account from this in as much I have designed and/or built several very thick projects that would have otherwise warped (or did due to my failure in this regard) if not end joined and/or spline in some fashion within the body of the diaphragm. 

As just some examples of projects I have designed and/or built illustrating this:

300mm (~12") thick Tank pads for the Marines.
Temporary log bridges for Forestry/trail maintenance and access operation.
Corduroy roads.
Puncheon and related floor systems.
Large slab and plank Table assemblies never thinner (in my work) than 30mm (~1.25") and averaging 50mm to 150mm (~2" to 6") thick.

All of these require a BB, or some other "stiffing member" to arrest warp and distortion within the diaphragm while still enabling the need for seasonal expansion/contraction...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Plus one here....I agree with Jay...most widths/spans need support, it's all in what flavor you like!!!


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## KevinM (Apr 22, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I do like some of the videos on Youtube...Some are really good and don't try to "teach" just show an example of a given method...
> 
> In support of Steve Neul's example and an example of a good "Youtuber" (in my view of it) here is a video showing the basic method...but of course there are many other "good" methods...
> 
> WEDGED DOVETAIL OAK MEDICINE CABINET - YouTube



Nice video subscribed also


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.


Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.


The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away. Since the breadboard end is only glued in the center it needs something to prevent the breadboard end from pulling away in the event the end board would warp. Still, sometimes they do just that given sufficient pressure from the end board.


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?



Tool Chest From Bristol;

https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-tool-chest-bristol/


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

djg, The total finished width of his breadboard is 10". If you glue the center... the plank will expand outward from there (approximately 4" beyond the glued surface of the center mortice), so I would think it might move maybe 1/16". It may be able to crush the fibers that amount and you would be ok. A better way is to not use a through tenon on the outer tenons and allow a gap for expansion hidden in the mortice. 

I think his thinking is that the panel is only 10", and he wants to show you how to make thru tenons.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away....


Sorry, that is technically and historically incorrect...They do draw it tight and actually are meant to draw it very tight and keep it that way even over centuries...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.


Hi OutdoorSeeker...

Short answer is...*absolutely YES!!!*

If the "Draw Pinning" is used appropriately it will snug the Bread Board directly (and tight!!!) up against the panel, slab or whatever field of wood (aka diaphragm) there is to keep it flat yet still allow seasonal expansion and contraction...The Draw Pin (aka peg, trunnel, tree nail) act under permanent tension almost like springs. In large versions of this work there is a prominent bend in Draw Pin that is clearly visible as we find in the restoration work of old furniture and timber frames...

Wood moves, and this joint, even though meant to be*...very tight and under permanent pressure to stay so..*.it is still a sliding joint and will not retard or arrest the movement of the wood in large diaphragm from moving seasonally...Nor do the "tight" variations and alternatives to Bread Boards, like Sliding Dovetail Splines, Mortised Free Splines, Rod Doweling...etc...




djg said:


> Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?


Yes...

And that is a little different application though still a "stiffening and strengthening" member...

I'll explain why and show another video with a similar example to Roy's in his video for the "Sea Trunk" lid.

The primary different is the size of the wood (aka diaphragm) to be stiffened and kept flat...It's much smaller than a normal panal. In the best examples (the one in the video isn't that) it is only built from quarter, rift sawn or riven wood. You may also note a large strap hinge having some significant "trapping" affect against the wood as well, yet because of the much smaller seasonal change in its small cross section and the wood species itself being of a stable variety...this is virtually a nonissue to even worry about...

Large glue ups and slab panels (diaphragms) are the real challenge and where Bread Boards and other similar methods can really be put to work well...IF...they are understood and facilitated properly...

Here is another video demonstrating a "locked version" of a Bread Board end...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Sorry, that is technically and historically incorrect...They do draw it tight and actually are meant to draw it very tight and keep it that way even over centuries...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.


I can't speak at all for what you say you have seen...or what quality of work those examples reflected...:vs_worry:

I can speak to the 40 years of work I have done, and those like Roy that I have actually worked with, and your assessment of this joint is neither accurate nor reflective of the standards. This is true, not only in this post, but others as well here on the forum from you regarding this joinery system. 

*The historic and/or restoration standard practices for such "stiffening and strengthening members," are executed exactly as I have described them...*

I will have to respectfully disagree on this point for your assessment of Bread Boards... :| ...and I would leave it to the OP and readers to follow the advise they choose...


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Hi OutdoorSeeker...
> 
> Short answer is...*absolutely YES!!!*
> 
> ...


Thank you Jay for the insight. It seems to me that the peg would force the joint tighter. 

So this brings up a question. I would assume the peg would need to be a harder or equally as hard as the boards themselves. 
Is so, what would be the desired dowel for hickory. Is oak harder? I think I would like to see a little contrast in the dowels for looks. 

Complete novice here so lots of question help me learn. Thanks again


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> I can't speak at all for what you say you have seen...or what quality of work those examples reflected...:vs_worry:
> 
> I can speak to the 40 years of work I have done, and those like Roy that I have actually worked with, and your assessment of this joint is neither accurate nor reflective of the standards. This is true, not only in this post, but others as well here on the forum from you regarding this joinery system.
> 
> ...


This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together. 

The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.


YES!!!!



Steve Neul said:


> The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away. Since the breadboard end is only glued in the center it needs something to prevent the breadboard end from pulling away in the event the end board would warp. Still, sometimes they do just that given sufficient pressure from the end board.


WRONG!!!



Steve Neul said:


> This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together.
> 
> The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.


Steve, YES IF they are done CORRECTLY originally they SHOULD be draw bored (tightens the joint!!!)
IF you're having THAT many tables come through your shop for that repair SOMEBODY's doing/done their job WRONG!!!!...MAYBE that's why you're having to repair them!!!! :vs_cool: :vs_cool::vs_cool::surprise2: :vs_OMG: GOOD food for thought!!!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...Thank you Jay for the insight. It seems to me that the peg would force the joint tighter.


:grin:...You are most welcome...and that would be the appropriate and logical conclusion to draw...for a properly executed and jointed Bread Board strengthening and stiffening member...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...So this brings up a question. I would assume the peg would need to be a harder or equally as hard as the boards themselves.


Yes...in most (not all) good examples that is the case...

Just like today, not every woodworker of the past was an expert or even best at their craft...Many examples are just "down and dirty"...green wood builds...by a farmer that needed something to live with and they needed it NOW!!! so used what they had...and went with it!!!

Now, for folks like me, that study such vernacular vintage work (within the context of several cultures)...it illustrates a clear spectrum of not only variable degrees of workmanship but it can (in time) also reflect clear cultural nuance and differentials within approach modalities to the craft in general and to this joint in specifics...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...Is so, what would be the desired dowel for hickory. Is oak harder? I think I would like to see a little contrast in the dowels for looks...


Hardwoods in general are almost exclusively used in every culture for all wedge and trunnel/peg material (there are exceptions but not worth noting here.) 

Hickory is an excellent peg material by (and for) some applications, and I would actually say more germane than oak, but a Oak can work also.

If you want contrast (and I'm putting on my "design hat" now) you can make a great impact in the presentation of piece of work, but must also be careful not to make it to "gaudy" either...Nevertheless, the effect in presenation and motiff is up to you as the creator...and...if you like it and what it "says!" to you as such, then that is what is most important...Its your work, and it leaves a message behind (if well made and finished) to the generation to follow...

Black Walnut would be great...So would Locust, Maple or Beech...and you can augment the color with traditional dies and stains if you want something really splashy...?!?!!!:vs_OMG::vs_laugh::vs_closedeyes:



OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...Complete novice here so lots of question help me learn. Thanks again


I teach...and I love it...questions are awesome!!!

>>>



Steve Neul said:


> This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together...The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.


Frankly, no I don't think that is a good example of one...nor a style I would recommend for any Bread Board End, for a number of reasons...

I do agree it is...indeed...reflective of "modern" (aka post WWII) examples of the "re-interpenetration" of this joinery system. I have only seen similar on very rare occasions in 17th to 19th century work...on small chest work...

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...in contrast to..."Sloppy Fit Pins" (aka elliptical peg hole) as they have become known, is still the better practice. Blow outs can often occur with the latter and can also lead to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board...

The examples I am most familiar with are replications I have built from examples much older (up to 500 years plus) and come from accross Europe, the Middle East and of course, Asia...Mainly in museums and private collections for study...then builds I normally do in the "folk styles."


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

djg said:


> Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DJG....NOTICE one thing in pic prior to starting video the breadboard is slightly sideways....MEANING there has to be play in it OR it wouldn't/couldn't be that way....he's too precise to be that sloppy.....hmmm....food for thought!!!!


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip09.html

Here is a find from some searches I have came across.


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> "Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...in contrast to..."Sloppy Fit Pins" (aka elliptical peg hole) as they have become known, is still the better practice. Blow outs can often occur with the latter and can also lead to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board...


Your saying that you don’t make room for the dowel/peg to move in the tenon? Meaning that you don’t enlarge the hole for wood movement?

I understand the movement in the tenon and mortise. But if there is no space for the peg to slide wouldn’t there be damage?


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## woodchuckbenjamin (Feb 19, 2019)

*looks like a good idea!*

im very new to wood working but i think ill give this a try. :grin:


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## djg (Dec 24, 2009)

Tennessee Tim said:


> DJG....NOTICE one thing in pic prior to starting video the breadboard is slightly sideways....MEANING there has to be play in it OR it wouldn't/couldn't be that way....he's too precise to be that sloppy.....hmmm....food for thought!!!!



Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

djg said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.


The joint opening isn't parallel meaning he intentionally has some extra mortise room for movement OR his normal tightness would've forced that pictures joint to be parallel at that depth .

Hands on....you'll love Jay's work and reputable input/information. His IS based on studies abroad, HANDS ON apprenticing, family's traditions, ....extensive other and above education in a wide spectrum involving many trades to which are at "Master" standard.

Outdoor seeker, I'll wait on Jays comment BUT I believe there is a misunderstanding via a quick typo error or forgotten sentence.....as I've got responses all typed in (or I thought) only to find out with all the info flowing through my head while typing I overlooked the important key meaning. I'm gonna guess he's talking about the "over" exagerrated/elongated holes (they show holes way too long which make them weak). He'll correct me if/as needed, I've not mastered (fully knowledged) all joints/fittings. I'm still acquiring indepth.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> YES!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm wasn't having that many tables come through my shop for repair, they were there for refinishing. I was just noting the construction method. I don't think I actually had to repair more than a couple. Most of the time the repair was limited to grinding the ends of the breadboard off because the wood on the table had shrunk. 

There was an antique dealer near me that was buying containers of used furniture from Europe and selling them as antiques here. It was mostly restaurants that was buying the tables and they would go through the container lot and pick out the cleanest tables and pass on the tables that were abused or the finish had gone bad. The dealer would then take what was left and put them in a warehouse. This warehouse was 10,000 sq. ft. and when I met the dealer he had this warehouse stacked 4 & 5 high with these reject tables. I was asked to do a cheap repair and refinish of these tables in order he could sell them. It took us about 1 1/2 years to empty that warehouse.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> :grin:...You are most welcome...and that would be the appropriate and logical conclusion to draw...for a properly executed and jointed Bread Board strengthening and stiffening member...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.


Steve, we're here (all as a whole) to teach things correctly....it doesn't matter per thickness as that is actually all ratios per thickness NOT do it anyway you can to sell per thinness.

The newbies rely on what we say and teach as they're seeking insite/knowledge....IF we teach them halfway info, then when they teach it they may halfway again OR better yet, NOT pass the info on BECAUSE it didn't work correctly for them....we have enough goof-tube info out there now.....DON'T misunderstand, you tube also has a few great and correct info also, BUT IF WE don't give a person enough correct info they get caught up in the other trash that ruins it for the true trade. So instead of trashing a style/technique we need to explain/study why something failed and explain the correct procedure. I can show explain the many weaknesses in the illustration you gave and the few good points BUT to say it's all bad or all good is incorrect....it is a simplified tenon/breadboard for faster manufacturing/building....YES it will work BUT NOT for many years of correct service. We've (as a whole world) tried to simplify EVERYTHING and it's only created large profits AND a "throw away" world/manufactures.

OFF my box!!!! :vs_cool: :vs_OMG: :crying2:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Steve, we're here (all as a whole) to teach things correctly....it doesn't matter per thickness as that is actually all ratios per thickness NOT do it anyway you can to sell per thinness.
> 
> The newbies rely on what we say and teach as they're seeking insite/knowledge....IF we teach them halfway info, then when they teach it they may halfway again OR better yet, NOT pass the info on BECAUSE it didn't work correctly for them....we have enough goof-tube info out there now.....DON'T misunderstand, you tube also has a few great and correct info also, BUT IF WE don't give a person enough correct info they get caught up in the other trash that ruins it for the true trade. So instead of trashing a style/technique we need to explain/study why something failed and explain the correct procedure. I can show explain the many weaknesses in the illustration you gave and the few good points BUT to say it's all bad or all good is incorrect....it is a simplified tenon/breadboard for faster manufacturing/building....YES it will work BUT NOT for many years of correct service. We've (as a whole world) tried to simplify EVERYTHING and it's only created large profits AND a "throw away" world/manufactures.
> 
> OFF my box!!!! :vs_cool: :vs_OMG: :crying2:


I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything. How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work. Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table. I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything. How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work. Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table. I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.


You need to READ what I said...."....it will work BUT it's not correct...". ....CORRECT is the key WORD !!! THAT'S why they have the issues. NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph....hmmm :surprise2: :vs_laugh: 

As we say in the hills..... decide how your gonna straddle the fence, it will eventually cut them off!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> You need to READ what I said...."....it will work BUT it's not correct...". ....CORRECT is the key WORD !!! THAT'S why they have the issues. NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph....hmmm :surprise2: :vs_laugh:
> 
> As we say in the hills..... decide how your gonna straddle the fence, it will eventually cut them off!!!


That statement is subjective. There are many different procedures in woodworking which none is right or wrong, just different. 

"NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph". Regardless of what any of us say or think here people are going to put a breadboard ends on tables as a design thing. All I'm saying is there isn't a functional reason for using them and I was merely pointing out the down side of using them and giving an alternative. Having had an antique repair shop for a number of years I was able to see the down side to a lot of common woodworking procedures still in use today.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...I'm wasn't having that many tables come through my shop for repair, they were there for refinishing. I was just noting the construction method....There was an antique dealer near me that was buying containers of used furniture from Europe and selling them as antiques here...


Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"



Steve Neul said:


> You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.


Sorry Steve...

*That has no real bearing at all on the topic of Bread Board Ends nor the joinery that goes with them...*:glasses:

I have done these (and related methods) in green and dry wood both...

From cross sections as large as 300mm (~12") plus with huge trunnel/peg for floated bridge decking...all the way down to tiny "keepsake boxes"..."draw pinned"...with Hawthorn spikes, cactus thorn, Honey Locust or related esoteric tiny joinery pegs applicable to "slide joinery"...



Steve Neul said:


> ...I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything...


In a very limited way...???...Yes I would agree you do "understand the procedures."

However, the issue is the "debate" you always seem to want to enter into with folks as if there is "equal value" in your opinion on the topic...???...I would respectfully offer that you do not always have equality in your understanding of a subject. It can (and does) often only confuse conversations like this one by you "trying" to interject a "view point" about something that you clearly are making...incorrect statements about based on understanding that is either out of context and/or pf a limited in nature...

*I don't comment on many subjects* here on the forum because they are about woodworking methods outside my expertise and/or field of interest...OR...I offer a little and if someone wants more of what...I do actually know...I will give it then...*AND ONLY THEN!!!*



Steve Neul said:


> ...How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work...


Respectfully Steve...!!???

It isn't the "two of" anyone...Its you and your incessant compulsion to post comments even if the information you present is either inaccurate and/or out of context...or...of a very narrow scope...

Then (as you are in this post thread) needing to debate it to prove...???...I don't know what...



Steve Neul said:


> ...Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table...


You have stated often on posts about this topic that you don't like Bread Board Ends...I don't understand why its emportant to do that each time and offer the same false assumptions and narrow perspectives of the topic?

Frankly Steve, what you like...and don't like...isn't often helpful to an OP trying to get advise on a subject that...THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT...whether you like the subject (or method) is irrelevant and extraneous...

I don't like "plastic finishes" but if a forum member is seeking advise about them I do one of two things:

1. I don't comment...

or

2. I give the best information, in context to there wants, goals and needs to address the topic...since "my likes" have no bearing to an OP topic of such a nature...



Steve Neul said:


> ...I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.


Again, You haven't describe any actual "old furniture" yet that I know of, nor presented photos of your work on them, or that of colleagues...

Old is not post World War II as that would be considered contemporary furniture...

Old is 300 to 1000 years...That's old and that is the context I am often referencing for posters requesting information regarding this topic...

BECAUSE...the methods, in good practice of fine woodworking, has not changed since then for many of these means, methods and materials!!!



Steve Neul said:


> ...That statement is subjective. There are many different procedures in woodworking which none is right or wrong, just different.


I do not believe it is going to be productive to debate what you "think" is subjective...Believe as you wish for the work you do...

I can..very concisely...state that there is clearly "right and wrong" methods in woodworking...and not just..."different procedures."...that is simply an inaccurate comment...

Many modalities are also much better than others...Within the context of there different applications...Bread Boards Ends...*WHEN DONE WELL AND PROPERLY*...are applicable and often superior to other methods...and/or integral added measures of strengthening and stability for the long-term function of the piece...



Steve Neul said:


> ...All I'm saying is there isn't a functional reason for using them and I was merely pointing out the down side of using them and giving an alternative. Having had an antique repair shop for a number of years I was able to see the down side to a lot of common woodworking procedures still in use today.


In this conversation you have reference "post World War II" and at no time here, or in any other conversation I have read posted by you, ever clearly reference an exact circa date for a piece containing a Bread Board End on a from the 18th, 17th, 16th century...or older...nor that of any collegues with similar challenges as you claim observing...

I have...and I have provided a considerable amount of information refuting you understanding...

I don't expect (nor seek) anyone's "liking" of the subject as I present it. I know you don't agree with Bread Board Ends, however you belaboring that point is inutile toward the topic and unproductive for those trying to...*LEARN SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE SEEKING KNOWLEDGE ABOUT.* 

The historic record and/or the realities of the proper methods of Bread Board Ends in context to functional, well designed and build applications of them is not open for debate. They are out there, and that (I think?) is what folks are trying to learn...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Sorry Folks...I did a bad edit job yesterday...*



OutdoorSeeker said:


> http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip09.html
> 
> Here is a find from some searches I have came across.


That is a pretty good description...and a bit of "old history for me!" 

One of the original founders and editors of Workbench Magazine was my Uncle...!!!

I love it when folks reference that magazine, as it brings back memories of growing up around some pretty incredibly talented Artisan and Craftspeople...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> Your saying that you don’t make room for the dowel/peg to move in the tenon? Meaning that you don’t enlarge the hole for wood movement?
> 
> I understand the movement in the tenon and mortise. But if there is no space for the peg to slide wouldn’t there be damage?




*Please accept my most humble of apologies...!!!*

As Tim rightfully pointed out...I'm a dolt after 22:00 hrs in the evening sometimes...:vs_whistle: :vs_lol:

I have to "cut and paste" quite often just to keep up with the volume of writing I do for students, clients, and related demands. Sometimes my editing (too late at night :yawn: ) is not the best it should be...Sorry for that! :sad2::icon_redface:

LETS TRY AGAIN:

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...if employing a "free tenon" with proper length you can "draw pin" both ends (if they are properly sized and of an appropriate width" to accommodate expansion/contraction of the wood diaphragm (aka slab or glued up large panel) as they can slightly rotating within an enlarged mortise...

In contrast..."Sloppy Fit Pins"...(aka elliptical peg hole) without enough "relish" (as they have become known), is poor practice because there is not enough "relish" at the end of the tenons and blow outs often occur, thereby leading to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board End...

This is a very broad subject with many "good methods" and many..."not so good" methods usually of a contemporary nature of "reinvention" and/or poor understanding of the foundational modalities...



djg said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.


Roy was right...

Its just out of context for a large slab or glued up panel. I thought (???) I explained why its different in his example...which had to do with width of the wood board and the species he selected...

PLEASE LET ME KNOW...!!!...if I can expand, explain or illustrate anything thus far in a better manner???

*Apologies once more if I confused anyone!!!*


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whew....I'm out of type (breath)...I couldn't of typed (said) it any better. > I'll second that!!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated. It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades. Your argument is like arguing between a doweled joint and a mortise and tenon joint. Both are fine joints, just different.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated.


Opinion...I don't believe so, but I will leave that up to the readers...I've clearly offered the reasons why it is fallible...



Steve Neul said:


> ...It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades.


No...actually, it is not, for the reasons I listed...and...you (??!!!) yourself shared reasons you don't like Bread Board Ends...

So sorry, you can't have it both ways...This elongated peg hole in short tenons is simply...BAD PRACTICE...within most applications if not all of them...



Steve Neul said:


> ...Your argument is like arguing between a doweled joint and a mortise and tenon joint. Both are fine joints, just different.


As to "doweled joints" vs "M&T" I agree both are fine joints...IN CONTEXT...but that is not germane to the topic of this post and is out of context...again!!!...comparatively...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated. It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades......



WELL I couldn't get the pic to post BUT I'll pick it apart...
1) the elongated holes are too wide Which creates a weak point allowing failure in the short straight grain left
2) TOOOOOOOOOOO much wood removed in all that mortised area causing multiple weak points to be listed
3) breadboard mortised ends (endgrain) tooooo thin = splitting risk
4) TOOO much thin floating wood in breadboard due to too much wood removed in this type of mortise again creating weaknesses
5) elongated holes tooooo close to main tabletop end grain creating weak point as in #1

Want MORE?????


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> WELL I couldn't get the pic to post BUT I'll pick it apart...
> 1) the elongated holes are too wide Which creates a weak point allowing failure in the short straight grain left
> 2) TOOOOOOOOOOO much wood removed in all that mortised area causing multiple weak points to be listed
> 3) breadboard mortised ends (endgrain) tooooo thin = splitting risk
> ...


You are probably right on the holes being too long on the illustration however if they didn't draw it that way it wouldn't show up. The ideal was to insure that the holes were elongated. If the holes are not elongated enough it will bust the top. There needs to be room for 3/8" of movement. As far as weak, all it's suppose to do is hold a breadboard end on. It's not like you are going to put a chain on it and pull your car out of a ditch with it. The strength of the tenon is sufficient for use as a table, as said earlier I've seen hundreds of them that were 50 years old or older and didn't need any repair other than grinding the ends off. The illustration shows the mortise on the breadboard not going all the way to the end so the thin edge on the breadboard end doesn't matter. The dowels are glued in holding the edges together in the center so it makes for a good solid joint and allowing for wood movement. Proportionally the thickness of the tenon is about right for the top shown. It appears to be a top that is 3/4" thick so it wouldn't be possible to make a thicker tenon. The majority of the tables I worked on were made with a 3/4" tops and the tenons were 1/4" thick and worked fine.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...The ideal was to insure that the holes were elongated. If the holes are not elongated enough it will bust the top...


Very true...and an area we can agree is a challenge with doing them properly...:laugh2:



Steve Neul said:


> ...There needs to be room for 3/8" of movement...


That actually is not accurate...3/8 may be to big or too small accordingly....

This "elongation" is proportional to the:

Wood Species...Number of tenon...Type of tenon...Size of field diaphragm to be stiffened...Grain orientation and pattern...

all of those factors and a few more actually are what dictate the size (and quantity) of elongations...



Steve Neul said:


> ...As far as weak, all it's suppose to do is hold a breadboard end on. It's not like you are going to put a chain on it and pull your car out of a ditch with it.


Well...that would be a silly thing to do, and I don't believe anyone would ever try? 

Further...no...it is not only to "...hold the breadboard end on..."it is also meant to stiffen and strengthen the field of wood it is attached to and to do that properly a thorough "draw pinning" must be performed...

I can say that many of the modern ones are "weak" because they are designed poorly and often based on plans like you yourself shared here. 

Frankly I see more "bad examples" of Breadboards being designed and built than "good ones" for all the points raised in this post thread...

Too many people who..."think"...they know how they work actually don't at all...nor take the time to really learn and/or think about them in the orgin context of the system of joinery they belong to...



Steve Neul said:


> ...The strength of the tenon is sufficient for use as a table, as said earlier I've seen hundreds of them that were 50 years old or older and didn't need any repair other than grinding the ends off.


Agree fully...when done properly that is exactly how they should behave, but unfortunately I see many with the "ends ground off" and then when the table contracts there are issues...

Partially "proud" breadboard ends to some minor degree is normal...and not something to be "ground off" as this is part of the design on many examples (not all.)

Sizing a breadboard to accommodate as stable field will still entail a slight distal section to the board if properly designed and built built on most examples...



Steve Neul said:


> ... The illustration shows the mortise on the breadboard not going all the way to the end so the thin edge on the breadboard end doesn't matter. The dowels are glued in holding the edges together in the center so it makes for a good solid joint and allowing for wood movement.


If referring...again...to the drawing you shared...I can not agree...

That is a very bad example of how to build a proper bread board as the sizes and proportions of most of it are disproportioned and not in good context to typical applications of a proper breadboard...



Steve Neul said:


> ...Proportionally the thickness of the tenon is about right for the top shown. It appears to be a top that is 3/4" thick so it wouldn't be possible to make a thicker tenon. The majority of the tables I worked on were made with a 3/4" tops and the tenons were 1/4" thick and worked fine...


I agree with your assessment of the "sizing."

However, that is a diminutive and delicate example and...*no again*...the proportions are not examples of "good practice" for a breadboard end...

That is not "opinion" that is tangible design fact as I (et al) have quantified in some detail within this post thread...belaboring it is pointless and not good for those trying to learn how to do them properly...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Very true...and an area we can agree is a challenge with doing them properly...:laugh2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.


STEVE....IF I thought you knew what you were TALKING about, WE WOULDN'T be having this conversation. :vs_cool::vs_OMG:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.


NO Sir...you clearly do not...

Sorry Steve, I can comment on what your "great deal of experience" is...or is not...?

My C.V., and related credentials are clearly linked to each and every post I make...I have yet to see yours, or very much of your "advance worked" outlined anywhere here other than some photos, and ubiquitous pandemic posting here on the forum...Nor have I found any substantial examples of your woodworking on the web? 

I would never take away your talents where clearly reflected and valid. Such as your gift with carving wood...

But on this point Sir...respectfully you are wrong, the post you have made are incorrect, and if you can't acknowledge when your are clearly mistaken...I can not do more than correct the inaccuracies as they are understood within a given topic, as I have in this and related posts...and back them up with good explanation and links to support why...as others have tried as well to no avail with you...

I leave you to your own devise and reasoning to do as you please...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Unbelievable ...*

55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years. :crying2::bangin::whistling2:


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

:wheelchair:


woodnthings said:


> 55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years. :crying2::bangin::whistling2:


:wheelchair: Let's see now sonny boy, just where did I leave that chain to jerk that lil WHIPPERSNAPPER off with??? :wheelchair::scooter:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> 55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years. :crying2::bangin::whistling2:


Sadly, most of the tables built today will not be in use 25 years from now, fortunately we still have a few among us that can properly restore those pieces of significance for those in the future to look upon and appreciate. For the masses they will buy what is trendy today and dispose of it tomorrow for the next big craze. I can't imagine my parents parting with their hard earned dollars to purchase a piece of furniture made from crappy wood salvaged from a shipping pallet.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> 55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years. :crying2::bangin::whistling2:


I agree, this whole thing is idiotic. It's about a system that has been used by countless people and furniture manufacturers for a very long time.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

This has been very enlightening to me. It has made me stop and think. What I have learned is that when working with wood joinery, one must really stop and think about the movement in many ways in order for the best long term success. And the fact that since wood expands and contracts, these facts can't be changed...but can be overcome to an extent.

Since the original posting question was asked...I have been keenly stimulated by all the opinions, and would like to thank everyone involved for the education. Banter included.


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## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

Reminder for all of us...

When we disagree...
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f33/when-we-disagree-198506/


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

I appreciate the time and wisdom everyone has invested here as well. From all sides. I have gained more respect for the skills of great woodworking here. 
This thread has grilled me to search out the history of woodworking a little more. I hope I can harness it all when I go to make a major build at home.


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## Brian T (Nov 3, 2018)

I have an 18" x 3/8" drill bit. I use ready rod to bolt the glue-up together.
I add nice edge caps and I'm done for keeps.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> I agree, this whole thing is idiotic. It's about a system that has been used by countless people and furniture manufacturers for a very long time.


Thanks to all for at least following along and I am more than pleased that some have taken away from this conversation the important parts...

Steve, I can more than agree with..."has been used by countless people and furniture manufactures for a very long time." As to the "whole thing is idiotic" only if folks didn't learn something...:sad2:...about the correct and incorrect ways of doing it...There is so much more to this system of joinery and strengthening that we haven't even begun to get into...yet...:grin:


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.

I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.
> 
> I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.
> 
> SERIOUS Breadboard Ends!! Hand Tools vs Power Tools! Woodworking // How To // DIY - YouTube


The video leaves out some of it. From what I can see I don't care for that method. He cuts individual deep tenons for the breadboard but doesn't show the mortise for it. If there isn't sufficient room for movement it can cause the top to split. I've seen tables the center of the table has shrunk 5/8" in width so if you don't allow for that much movement you are asking for it. I think it would have been better off with larger tenons and fewer of them so you could allow enough space in the mortise for the movement. I would make the mortise 3/8" wider than the tenon and leave a sixteenth gap on the inside and 5/16" on the outside.


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

FrankC said:


> Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.


I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didn’t or don’t have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. I’m not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it. 
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> quote=FrankC;2039891]Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.


I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didn’t or don’t have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. I’m not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it. 
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman[/QUOTE]

I can appreciate that, and admire your quest for knowledge, good luck with your project.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Wood moves with changes in moisture, always. Cupping can be eliminated or greatly reduced through the use of quarter sawing. But quarter sawing will not eliminate expansion/contraction. I've only seen one elegant solution to bread boarding tables. A Greene & Greene design that incorporates an ebony spline. It's function is to eliminate the crude looking, inevitable offset between the breadboard end and the body of the top. It does not eliminate the likely movement it just renders it into part of the design. https://s26462.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/7809_5F00_FigC1.jpg

Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Larry42 said:


> Wood moves with changes in moisture, always. Cupping can be eliminated or greatly reduced through the use of quarter sawing. But quarter sawing will not eliminate expansion/contraction. I've only seen one elegant solution to bread boarding tables. A Greene & Greene design that incorporates an ebony spline. It's function is to eliminate the crude looking, inevitable offset between the breadboard end and the body of the top. It does not eliminate the likely movement it just renders it into part of the design. https://s26462.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/7809_5F00_FigC1.jpg
> 
> Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.


It says in the illustration that the spline is glued in a shallow groove. Do you know how much of the spline is glued to the top. I would think unless it was only glued in the center the spline would cause some wood movement problems.


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## Larry42 (Jan 10, 2014)

Look at the illustration again. They are talking about the ebony spline, follow the arrow.... The grain of the ebony and the top run in the same direction.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> quote=FrankC;2039891]Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.


I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didn’t or don’t have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. I’m not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it. 
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman[/QUOTE] OutdoorSeeker
..................................................................................................................................



I'm PROUD to see you see the difference AND have a great desire to learn.....I don't watch many of the youtubes due to most are longer than the time I have to watch their other than point of video.....BUT Idid take the time to watch this one for you up to the power tool part (nothing wrong with doing by power tools, I just didn't need the info) BUT GATHERED the info Steve didn't.....get.

At around 6:22 and 9:54 he discusses the extra plays needed with mortises and none in the center one.....somewhere in that frame he also elaborates on drawboring and it's IMPORTANCE along with the slight elongating of the holes. I liked the shamfering also as to me it's a elegant touch.

Sorry I didn't make it to 11:35 BUT it couldlve been a typo/videoyo and wasn't addressed as he did do it on the top in the hand tool part.

THIS in my opinion and the older studies I've seen is the correct way and not the fast way that is weak as Steves illustration shows.

I'm thrilled to see others have taken some time to dig a little deeper also into the importance of doing this technique correctly and the reasoning/history behind the process. Our old techniques have gotten muddled in time/ages over speed/time/profits which is now sadly showing up in how long something doesn't last, which went from milliniums, down to centuries, down to decades, down to 5 years, I actually had a replaced OEM HVAC fan go out in 1 yr 3mths and I have no option BUT to buy the OEM part that only lasted 3 months past the 1 yr parts warranty.

Maybe no typos...LOL!!!!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The purpose of a breadboard end is ......*

My understanding is that a breadboard end will do, or is supposed to do, two things:


1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.


2. It is supposed to keep the planks from cupping, a natural phenomenon from shrinkage/drying depending on the specific slice of the tree where the planks was sourced, a quartersawn board being the least likely to cup.


It's my opinion, that if a board is going to cup, a breadboard end may not prevent it. I don't have first hand experience with them on any project I've made, so I'm far from an expert.


As far as preventing the planks from shifting, I would try using dowels running crosswise, near the very ends. They won't affect any wood movement across the width, so no issues there. No issues along the length either.


Another approach which I've never used myself, would be to inset a steel or aluminum bar that's 1/3 the total thickness of the planks into a stopped mortise on the ends. A wood "T" section could be set into it as well to cap off the end grain. The whole issue of how to make them properly has me turned off as well as confused. I don't think they are worth the trouble for me. :|


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> My understanding is that a breadboard end will do two things:
> 
> 
> 1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.
> ...


There were a few tables with breadboard ends that passed through my shop that had a cup warp which bowed the breadboard ends. These tables the tops were only 3/4" thick. A thicker top the breadboard end I would think would have more influence.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> There were a few tables with breadboard ends that passed through my shop that had a cup warp which bowed the breadboard ends. These tables the tops were only 3/4" thick. A thicker top the breadboard end I would think would have more influence.


That's your SIGN/RED FLAG something else is wrong or NOT done correctly....my first guess would be why did they only finish one side/top or my second being something glued/anchored crossgrained TOO tight....ABSOLUTE NOTHING to do with the function of the breadboard THAT has to do with incorrect techniques and (im)proper joinery. Kinda like saying all tires are wrong/incorrect to use because some don't inflate them correctly.....NOT the tire's fault or purpose!!!

Food for thought !!!!:vs_cool::vs_laugh:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> That's your SIGN/RED FLAG something else is wrong or NOT done correctly....my first guess would be why did they only finish one side/top or my second being something glued/anchored crossgrained TOO tight....ABSOLUTE NOTHING to do with the function of the breadboard THAT has to do with incorrect techniques and (im)proper joinery. Kinda like saying all tires are wrong/incorrect to use because some don't inflate them correctly.....NOT the tire's fault or purpose!!!
> 
> Food for thought !!!!:vs_cool::vs_laugh:


It's been too many years since I saw the tables to say whether or not the table tops were finished on both sides. I do remember they were cupped in both directions though. If all of them was crowned on the underside I would also assume the underside was unfinished and caused the problem. Woodenthings just made comment that he thought the breadboard end would bow if the table top did and I just noted that I've seen it happen.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> It's been too many years since I saw the tables to say whether or not the table tops were finished on both sides. I do remember they were cupped in both directions though. If all of them was crowned on the underside I would also assume the underside was unfinished and caused the problem. Woodenthings just made comment that he thought the breadboard end would bow if the table top did and I just noted that I've seen it happen.


LOL !!!!....That reminded me back in my beginnings 36 yrs ago I built a trestle table and done the ultimate NO-NO of glueing cross grain...I built in the middle of the RH/ MC of where the table would be placed ....WINTER it would cup and SUMMER it would bow. The same happens with one side finished one or the other side gains or loses faster than the finished side, so we have to remember the direction only has to do with plus or minus of the other's MC...normally we see the finished side draw/cup only due to moisture increases into the unfinished wood faster then it reescapes....BUT that also depends on your standard average humidity, as in Texas being drier (I think) you'd see more bowing probably. I believe I read somewhere as a whole (USA) the average is 12% MC???? BUT that is average and subject to individual locations. I'm 12-13% here but my friend 3 hrs away in the mountians is considered tropical rain forest climate, that's got to be damp!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> LOL !!!!....That reminded me back in my beginnings 36 yrs ago I built a trestle table and done the ultimate NO-NO of glueing cross grain...I built in the middle of the RH/ MC of where the table would be placed ....WINTER it would cup and SUMMER it would bow. The same happens with one side finished one or the other side gains or loses faster than the finished side, so we have to remember the direction only has to do with plus or minus of the other's MC...normally we see the finished side draw/cup only due to moisture increases into the unfinished wood faster then it reescapes....BUT that also depends on your standard average humidity, as in Texas being drier (I think) you'd see more bowing probably. I believe I read somewhere as a whole (USA) the average is 12% MC???? BUT that is average and subject to individual locations. I'm 12-13% here but my friend 3 hrs away in the mountians is considered tropical rain forest climate, that's got to be damp!!!


Where I live the humidity level is rarely below 60%. The moisture content of wood is hard to figure. I brought in a cabinet I made a long time ago from a barn on my place that has a dirt floor. The cabinet when I brought it in was made out of unfinished solid walnut and the moisture content was 16.7%. The back had raised panels on it and I apparently didn't allow enough for that kind of moisture content as it pushed the frame apart a little. The building I put it in has had a dehumidifier in it for a couple weeks and the humidity level is 45% even though it's been raining every day. In 24 hours the moisture content of the wood dropped to 7.1% and panels rattle now.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think...


Hello ODS!!

*Overall and Excellent Video!!!*

Already saw it...!!!!...:vs_laugh:... as a colleague brought it to my attention when it first came out as they had been very impressed with another young woodworker actually learning the craft well and sharing what they are learning in a very unobtrusive way...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> ... I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process. ...


Anyone that knows anything about the Breadboard system of joinery, its history and the many different forms of it, could do nothing but admire this young Artisans work in cutting a very good example of it...

All in all...Chris did a superb job of the entire project with both...hand...and...power modalities outlined from his perspective...



OutdoorSeeker said:


> ...I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think...


Following the "pseudo" traditional methods and style he seemed to be portraying in this video...???...(aka a robust "Farm House" or "Harvest Table" top)...*No...you wouldn't..."score"...the fibers.*

If you recall, he was taking a block plane out in many of the shots and cutting a small chamfer on all edges. This was (and is) a very common practice especially in the folk traditions of woodworking and related modalities...

About the only things that could even come close to calling an "error" of any magnitude...technical or otherwise...(that is significant...particularity noteworthy) in the video would be:

He mistakenly called a "#4 Smoothing Plane" a "Scrub Plane," and he called a large "Firmer Chisel" a "Slick,"...other than that...I did catch anything terribly glaring that was incorrect per se...

>>>



Larry42 said:


> ...Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.


I know that house very well Larry!!!

My Great Uncle Vern, whom I lived with as a child for a spell, actually was born in 1885 and studied under them before become an Architect himself...

Many of Charles's and Henry's "turnkey design" projects included everything from the house itself... all the way to curtains, hardware, tile and furniture too!!!

I do believe (???...80%) the linked drawing is a modern interpretation, and not an original. It has issue with hardware draw-out as it is attached to end-grain (more on that if you want it?) and not enough room for movement unless built with quarter sawn lumber...

The originals, designed by the Brothers, but built by a pair of Swiss (?) brothers and Master Craftsmen, was built almost identical to the one in the video...but it did have the exact embellishments that we see in the drawing to counter act exactly what...can be...an issue for many aesthetically...

Great that you shared that aesthetic "fix!"

>>>



Steve Neul said:


> ...I think it would have been better off with larger tenons and fewer of them so you could allow enough space in the mortise for the movement. I would make the mortise 3/8" wider than the tenon and leave a sixteenth gap on the inside and 5/16" on the outside...


I can share that the oldest I have seen...500 plus years...was built almost identical to the one in the video......It's still in good shape, and was built (by all indications) of green riven White Oak...

It clearly illustrates exactly why many (not all) modern ones have such issues, which is undersized joinery...no tenons only a spline or "tongue" ..no proper draw boaring...

You lost me on the "1/16th gap on the inside" and the "5/16th on the outside"...???...I kept thinking you meant that amount of play around the tenon in the mortise...but that can't be it???

>>>



woodnthings said:


> ...My understanding is that a breadboard end will do, or is supposed to do, two things:
> 1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.
> 2. It is supposed to keep the planks from cupping, a natural phenomenon from shrinkage/drying depending on the specific slice of the tree where the planks was sourced, a quartersawn board being the least likely to cup.


Number one is very true in "folk style" as the table top boards (aka diaphram field) are often not glued together at all, but only splined, toggled, or trunneled...with some very old versions only butted together...The Breadboard keeps the assembly intact and functional over time and heavy use.

Number two is also a primary reason, though most original forms are built from green wood and are riven so the grain pattern is naturally in the "rift" form...Cupping is virtually nonexistent, and other than initial moisture loss movement is a very stable way to create durable furniture...



woodnthings said:


> ...It's my opinion, that if a board is going to cup, a breadboard end may not prevent it. I don't have first hand experience with them on any project I've made, so I'm far from an expert.


If I may respectfully...:|...that will have to be only an opinion since most of the Breadboards I have every built with (not restored those cover the spectrum) are made with green riven wood...and...sometimes even just "junk" wood like the last one I did for a huge island in a kitchen. They seldom cup or to no significant degree of note...

That assembly was built...literally with pallet and fire wood scrap green lumber...and the Breadboards only "friction fitted" to facilitate disassembly in a few months (which I haven't done yet) to clean up any gaping, or misbehave...I have had virtually no "cupping" at all. I will try and get to the clients house to take photos (I'm bad for that and my clients are very private typically.) When I do service it, I will post the info here on the forum...



woodnthings said:


> ...As far as preventing the planks from shifting, I would try using dowels running crosswise, near the very ends. They won't affect any wood movement across the width, so no issues there. No issues along the length either.


They actually do a really good job, but must be longer than many are...typically follow the "rule of thirds" in diameter...and...are done down the length of the plank. This is also a very common way to "float floors" in traditional Nordic and Eastern European folk architecture...

The breadboard in this case is added insurance/strengthening and also protects the end-grain of the plank from exposure...



woodnthings said:


> ...Another approach which I've never used myself, would be to inset a steel or aluminum bar that's 1/3 the total thickness of the planks into a stopped mortise on the ends. A wood "T" section could be set into it as well to cap off the end grain. The whole issue of how to make them properly has me turned off as well as confused. I don't think they are worth the trouble for me. :|


You kind of lost me on this one...but I did get a fleeting image in my head of a Chinese version of these that are very similar in description...and...I have built a very "industrial" version of a table with a wrought iron "capping" that formed the breadboard. I've also seen a few revisions similar with both steel spline and dovetail both


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Hello ODS!!
> 
> *Overall and Excellent Video!!!*
> 
> ...


What I was saying is the mortise would have to be wider than the tenon or it wouldn't allow for shrinkage. With that table that would be worse than not elongating the dowel holes on the full tenon breadboard end. At least a dowel might crush some before it would split the table top.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> Where I live the humidity level is rarely below 60%. The moisture content of wood is hard to figure. I brought in a cabinet I made a long time ago from a barn on my place that has a dirt floor. The cabinet when I brought it in was made out of unfinished solid walnut and the moisture content was 16.7%. The back had raised panels on it and I apparently didn't allow enough for that kind of moisture content as it pushed the frame apart a little. The building I put it in has had a dehumidifier in it for a couple weeks and the humidity level is 45% even though it's been raining every day. In 24 hours the moisture content of the wood dropped to 7.1% and panels rattle now.


LOL !!! talking about moisture swelling wood. My next project (IF/WHEN we get to finish due to all this heavy "dew" falling :vs_laugh::wink We are rebuilding a 80 ' deck framing that was pushed 2" out both ways (40'& 40') from the center because the original builder left 0" gap/tolerence between the wood T&G floor/decking and it was a lower MC at install time....DONE some damage!!!! Once all the framework is done ,we're installing a 2 styles of products by Nexan Decking, one being open slot/gap aluminum powder coated decking and over a covered area they have a dry style for protecting the under area....NICE products!!!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> LOL !!! talking about moisture swelling wood. My next project (IF/WHEN we get to finish due to all this heavy "dew" falling :vs_laugh::wink We are rebuilding a 80 ' deck framing that was pushed 2" out both ways (40'& 40') from the center because the original builder left 0" gap/tolerence between the wood T&G floor/decking and it was a lower MC at install time....DONE some damage!!!! Once all the framework is done ,we're installing a 2 styles of products by Nexan Decking, one being open slot/gap aluminum powder coated decking and over a covered area they have a dry style for protecting the under area....NICE products!!!


I wonder how hot the Nexan decking gets in summer. I've seen Trex decking get so hot here you couldn't stand to walk across it with shoes on.

Myself, when ever I do a deck I use pressure treated pine. The 5/4 gets pretty pricy so I buy ground contact rated 2x6's and surface one side to make them smooth. Using treated wood you best not leave a gap between the boards. The wood being still wet from the factory some will soon shrink making gaps. I normally purchase the wood a month prior to doing the job and stack and sticker the wood and allow it to at least dry a little before using it. It also gives you a chance to see which boards are going to warp.


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

OutdoorSeeker said:


> Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.
> 
> I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.
> 
> SERIOUS Breadboard Ends!! Hand Tools vs Power Tools! Woodworking // How To // DIY - YouTube


OudoorSeeker, I presume he used the same methods on both the top and bottom. I wanted to say, this is an excellent video, in both narration and illustration. I think following his methods would produce an extremely strong and long lasting breadboard on a table of that size. Years ago I purchased a Rockwell morticing attachment for my delta drill press, and although it works well, I resized it in some cases will not drill deep enough. After watching many of Paul Sellers videos on you tube, I have used chisels to produce accurate mortices, using his methods quicker. I find using traditional hand tool methods more relaxing without the noise of machines, which often are distracting. I liked the video you linked, because it shows both sides of the fence...both power and hand tools to achieve the same results.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Steve Neul said:


> I wonder how hot the Nexan decking gets in summer. I've seen Trex decking get so hot here you couldn't stand to walk across it with shoes on.
> 
> Myself, when ever I do a deck I use pressure treated pine. The 5/4 gets pretty pricy so I buy ground contact rated 2x6's and surface one side to make them smooth. Using treated wood you best not leave a gap between the boards. The wood being still wet from the factory some will soon shrink making gaps. I normally purchase the wood a month prior to doing the job and stack and sticker the wood and allow it to at least dry a little before using it. It also gives you a chance to see which boards are going to warp.


Nexan 's website has the heat transfer videos comparing all 3 wood, trex, nexan/aluminum.

I've seen some pretty decks with the "trex" style products BUT I'm not a fan or promote it to my clients. I see more long term issues with it and mostly involves the eventual sway between the joists over time.

I learned to layout 5/4 on 5 3/4" centers regardless whether it touches or not, once it's all finished drying you have a consistant gap pattern which is needed for air flow/drying..


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## OutdoorSeeker (Jul 13, 2015)

gmercer_48083 said:


> I find using traditional hand tool methods more relaxing without the noise of machines, which often are distracting.


I am starting to see that in watching some of these videos. I don’t have much of a hand tool supply but will be buying more as I go.

There is a lot of good videos out there but I thought his to be one of the best.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> Nexan 's website has the heat transfer videos comparing all 3 wood, trex, nexan/aluminum.
> 
> I've seen some pretty decks with the "trex" style products BUT I'm not a fan or promote it to my clients. I see more long term issues with it and mostly involves the eventual sway between the joists over time.
> 
> I learned to layout 5/4 on 5 3/4" centers regardless whether it touches or not, once it's all finished drying you have a consistant gap pattern which is needed for air flow/drying..


I've had to replace Trex before for wood on a deck largely because it was dipping about 1/8" between 16" centers. It may just be the intense heat here but I don't recommend it either. This deck was away from the house where there were no trees so it got full sun all day. It not only sagged between joists the color was pretty faded. I don't know of a product a person could use to restore the color but I haven't looked either since I don't work with it much. 

Most of the decks I do the framing is almost sitting on the ground. I try not to leave any more space between the boards as I can help because people tend to drop things through the cracks and can't get under the deck to retrieve it. I've had to go back to a customers house and remove some boards to find a ring that was dropped.


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