# System Three Spar Varnish Failure



## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Charles Neal Blog on Finishing


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Well, Charles, that sucks! :furious:

Epifanes Marine Varnish is probably the best outdoor varnish on the market, and even then, it has to be renewed "almost" every year. It would make it 2 years if the customer takes care of the chairs in the winter, etc. With the changes in the weather, and wood movement, even the slightest crack in the finish will spell disaster. The best spar/marine varnishes have UV, salt and mildew resistant inhibitors already in them. Wood subjected to frequent working stress, such as spars, flex to an even greater degree. A traditional varnish system with Epifanes Clear Varnish or a combination system with a buildup of Epifanes PP Varnish Extra (2-comp.) and topcoated with Epifanes Clear Varnish (1-comp.) is recommended. These elastic systems are also well suited for varnishing railings, blocks and other wood sections on board.

At this point, if it were me, I would strip off the varnish, clean off the mold, and then reapply a top quality spar varnish such as Epifanes. I would apply about 4 coats (AT LEAST) with light 320 grit sanding between coats.


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks Color, we are getting alot of suggestions, Will look at yours,


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

CharlesNeil said:


> Thanks Color, we are getting alot of suggestions, Will look at yours,


Great, let us know what you go with.


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Color, it will be a while, we are in the process of having everything stripped ( professionally) , then retreat for the mold/mildew. I have bleached heavy, after power washing ( last resort) actually used pool Shock it, to get a stronger solution, then power washed again to kill the mold, tried all the box store stuff didnt touch it. Now using "borax" to kill any of the deeper mold ( roots) , but will definately let them dry for along time, and make sure no other mold shows up. We looking at a 10 to 12k hit on this. Sys 3 has refused to help in any way, but thats not surprising .

I AM not telling anyone this is the way to treat mold, Its just what we are doing , and we still dont know if we got it.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never seen that one. Epifanes is too pricey for the work I do so I've been using Cabot's spar varnish. I used it to finish a front door on someone's house about 5 years ago and I saw it a few weeks ago and the door look just the same as when I finished it with the exception of a little yellowing.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

CharlesNeil said:


> Color, it will be a while, we are in the process of having everything stripped ( professionally) , then retreat for the mold/mildew. I have bleached heavy, after power washing ( last resort) actually used pool Shock it, to get a stronger solution, then power washed again to kill the mold, tried all the box store stuff didnt touch it. Now using "borax" to kill any of the deeper mold ( roots) , but will definately let them dry for along time, and make sure no other mold shows up. We looking at a 10 to 12k hit on this. Sys 3 has refused to help in any way, but thats not surprising .
> 
> I AM not telling anyone this is the way to treat mold, Its just what we are doing , and we still dont know if we got it.


I had a fellow finisher in my area use this and had great results:
http://concrobium.com/products/stain-eraser/

Borax Solution "might" do it. Bleach only kills mold spores that are on the surface of the wood. If the mold appears to be established deeper into the wood, you will likely need to lightly sand the area. This helps to remove the mold roots on the surface, and gets you deeper into the wood fibers. You should sand the area while it is still damp to discourage mold spores from spreading through the air. If you do sand, go back and repeat the mold removal process by cleaning again with whatever solution you may find that works.

I use the BBB method in my pool (Borax, Bleach, and Baking Soda) and it works great on removing algae.


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## jorma (Feb 24, 2016)

Wow...hard to believe that is from One Year.!
I painted in San Francisco for 30 years. We worked in Sea Cliff, The Piers, Russian Hill, etc etc, and used.....McCloskey Man-O-War spar varnish. 
I never saw a failure like what you have there. We finished all kinds of furniture and small out-buildings and benches. I am at a loss for any real hypothesis, other than the one You Made.....it seems the product simply did not work.
Who knows if Man-O-War Spar Varnish is still the same product. I have been retired for 10 years.
That is a Great Video you put together. 
Quarter Sawn White Oak.? I am certainly not a "wood guy", but it sure sounds like expensive furniture. Hope you get this all sorted out.
good luck


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Steve, 

even on these the vertical surfaces are not as bad as the horizontal, which tells me moisture was able to penetrate , if left for any time. 

In any event , I bet I have had 50 recommendations, so at this point, who knows ,


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## jorma (Feb 24, 2016)

Looking at this again...its really hard to believe.
Just thinking out loud:
Is it at all possible this is a wood (or combination of) problem.?
Did that company recommend a sealer, or do they just have you apply a super thin coat of finish for a sealer.? We always opted for a sanding sealer, no matter what the manufacture said.
It almost seems like you could have left the chairs outside with No Varnish on them, and they would not have been this bad, this fast.
I must say, i admire your timbre...you are one cool cat. :thumbsup:


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Jorma,

no initally they told me to do just exactly as I did, I was actually testing this stuff and initially it did well, but you see the (short) long term. 
Now they are saying i needed to coat everything in 2 to 3 coats of pour on epoxy, then use this varnish over it another 3 to 4 coats, 

I mean really!!!! can you imagine.. but my issue is no where do they tell you to use the epoxy, they never mentioned it to me . hey these guys provided the varnish for me to test, why didnt they include the epoxy.
I think the reason is they know no one would go to all that.
here is their copy , other than it Can be used over epoxy , its never mentioned, go to Woodcraft site and search Sys3, read the add copy, no mention any where . Here ... from the sys3 website, https://www.systemthree.com/products/marine-spar-varnish


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## jorma (Feb 24, 2016)

Yeah...i hear you...!!
I cannot imagine having to use pour-on epoxy on all of that, and then use a UV Rated clear on top.
How much would each chair cost.?
Its really too bad, you guys built some very beautiful chairs.

I dig the flowers. Are those water-slide decals, where did you get those.?


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Jorma,

My daughter painted them on, We just did it as an added touch. Funny, my client, is freaking out because once stripped and sanded, they are gone, but I assured him she would repaint.


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## TomCT2 (May 16, 2014)

something really bad wrong happened there. I've been around wood boats since I was pre-acorn. mahogany / oak planked / cedar / ash / name-it. where weather/moisture could get into the end grain, I've seen the black mold/mildew issue. on open flat surfaces, no - not a problem. 

the thin spray coats could be the cause - spray is not anything I would have tried on such a project; just me. a bad batch of finish could be the issue. but the issue is not the issue because billions and billions of other users have used spar varnish and not suffered those issues.

the flower painting reminds me of Austrian decor style furniture . . . nice artistry!


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## jorma (Feb 24, 2016)

OK...i have ZERO Artistic Ability.
When you say she "painted" them...does that mean with a stencil, or is each one hand painted.?
I realize for an artist, it might be a fairly "easy" task, but still.
I love those things, they REALLY make those chairs a classy place to sit.
She did a damn nice job.:thumbsup:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Personally I think epoxy is too thick and hard for exterior wood. They admit themselves it won't hold up to the sun is why they recommend a UV coating over the top in order for it to survive. Then the UV coating doesn't block 100% so even with an epoxy sealer the finish is destine to fail. They might as well recommend building a roof over their finish.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Personally I think epoxy is too thick and hard for exterior wood. They admit themselves it won't hold up to the sun is why they recommend a UV coating over the top in order for it to survive. Then the UV coating doesn't block 100% so even with an epoxy sealer the finish is destine to fail. They might as well recommend building a roof over their finish.


I totally agree.

Several years ago, 1997, I ran a small butcher block kitchen island top through a roll coater using a 100% solids epoxy based UV coating that was "supossed" to be the future in outdoor finishing. It looked fantastic, nice and smooth......didn't make it 1 year.

If you have wood that's gonna be subject to all the harsh weather year round, I don't know of any finish that will make it past 2 years tops.


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## CharlesNeil (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks so much for all the responses, alot of good stuff here and I will definitely be researching hard, I will let you know what I decide to do,

Jorma, She does them all free hand, I love to watch her do them , and she is quick, maybe 15 min a chair. 

I sure couldn't do it,


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## johnep (Apr 12, 2007)

Here in the UK mould attacks any wood exposed to elements. I always precoat with a fungicide before any finish.
johnep


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

agreed, I do not think they have developed an outdoor finish that will hold up in northern climates. we have limited the wood species used for outdoor projects to those that hold up naturally - cedar, redwood (available locally) and treated "although not natural". unless you bring them in during the winter/harsh months. 


i'm sure there are other species suited for exterior use.


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