# "Evil Machine"



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm building a pair of barn doors for a friend, barter system.
It's a 100 year old barn that was 100 years old before it was moved to it's current location. So it is time for some new doors.
The old ones look like Southern yellow pine, west side exposure sun and rain and snow here in Michigan. I opted for Cypress based on advice from mdntndr, BWSmith and others. It's a great wood!
So I got 280 BFT 1" x 10" Cypress from LL Johnson in Charlotte, MI. That's a a great source of all types of wood, and plywood. 
Anyway the old doors measure 7'7" x 11'7" So I need 12 footers, but they only have 14's. Oh Well. I had them straight line rip one edge and I figured I could straight line rip the opposite side. I needed at least 28 feet of run in the shop...that's not gonna happen, so I set up a RAS to rip them outside. Using a couple of 12 foot 2" x 12"s and leveling them and making them straight on the fence edge and using a 20 foot 2" x 6" for a fence I got it all set up. Next step is to rip them and rabbet the edges for a 1/2" overlap. I'll use a dado head in the RAS for that. More pictures as I start making them. The originals have clinched over nails for the fasteners. I am still deciding between that and coated deck screws.....:blink: bill

BTW "Evil Machine" is what my friend rrich calls the RAS.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

*Uncle Bills sawmill*

:thumbsup: That is a sweet setup. :thumbsup:

Them old RAS's really are a versatile machine. :devil2:

Your setup looks like it will perform your task's safely. 

Post up some action shots.


P.S... hows the dust collection? :huh:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Dust Distribution by...*

Western Breeze. Old company, been around for centuries. Not always reliable however. Yeah, it should work pretty well. I'll post pictures of the "curved" boards....:laughing: bill

The old hardware is probably shot. It rolls like its got sand in the wheels, so I'll be rebuilding that. The challenge will be to remove the hardware either in place or lower the door after I get it free at the top. Then rebuild the bushings and install on the new doors with as little down/open time as possible. I'll probably use a rope or cable at the top to gently lower them to the inclined ramp below...another challenge. ...nothing is flat going up to the doors. :thumbdown:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I'm b I needed at least 28 feet of run in the shop...that's not gonna happen, so I set up a RAS to rip them outside. so I set up a RAS to rip them outside.


*BILL*...I thought you would know better than that. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and dial 911 ahead of time and get them on their way. You may not be able to dial (thank me after you heal up).

I would just break out my 3.25 hp Bosch router with an edge guide and a straight mortising bit. If you don't have one of those, maybe you can rent one of the 5 hp Briggs & Stratton models.:laughing:












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Cman*

The router will probably be my choice for the rabbet, since I can't lower the head much further down. I'll see how that goes next. I might try using a roller hold down for the rips. 
Most folks don't understand that the blade wants to lift the work off the table when ripping, and the new recall guards have a slide down cover that you can set just above the work piece. A roller might be cool though....no need for predialed 911. Thanks anyway. bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I might try using a roller hold down for the rips.
> Most folks don't understand that the blade wants to lift the work off the table when ripping, and the new recall guards have a slide down cover that you can set just above the work piece. A roller might be cool though....no need for predialed 911. Thanks anyway. bill


What the heck is the problem with ripping with a handheld circular saw. What are you trying to prove??? Maybe it's just me, but some procedures I wouldn't flaunt on a forum full of impressionable members. This reminds me of the guy that says "Here, hold my beer". I'm puttin' 911 in your area on speed dial.:yes:












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nothing to prove to nobody*

You got your way, I got mine. If it don't feel safe don't do it...sound familiar? There was not even a hint of an issue lift up or otherwise with this set up and all the work was safely supported from end to end.My son and I worked together as a great team. 
Ripping on a RAS can be done safely.... otherwise 5 million RAS saws should be recalled nation wide just in case some bozo wants to try it without following the safety instructions and not using the safety equipment. And I didn't particularly want to find a 12 foot straight edge or cut to a marked line freehand, and measure each piece twice, actually 4 times, 2 on each end....etc...etc... 

What I did find was the mill's straight line rip was less than straight on many of the 8 boards I have cut thus far...hmmm

I could have used my Festool and a 130" guide and attached another shorter guide, but I had used a RAS set up like this before and was comfortable with it. There were no issues. :no:
Here's some more pictures:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> If it don't feel safe don't do it...sound familiar?


How would a first timer know if it felt safe?



woodnthings said:


> Ripping on a RAS can be done safely.... otherwise 5 million RAS saws should be recalled nation wide just in case some bozo wants to try it without following the safety instructions and not using the safety equipment.


Now there's a non-solution. We already know that there are bozo's not following safety instructions and not using safety equipment...don't we. So, with those individuals in mind...lets show them another questionable technique.












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Ripping Video*

Page 32 for ripping instructions on a RAS:
http://www.radialarmsawrecall.com/pub/sp5983-2.pdf


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Nice set up there, Bill. Been a long time, but I've ripped and dadoed on the RAS. In Jr. High Shop class, that and the jointer were the go to tools; when you needed something cut fast.:thumbsup: That looks a lot like my old saw. May have to buy another one day.

Back in their heyday, the RAS was like a milling machine for so many different jobs, plus your eye could be on the cut at all times.


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

"Evil machine".....?Heck,I've been hurt more times with a hammer and razor shrp chisel than any pwr equip,just sayin.RAS's or any pce of equip is as safe as you make it.

Lookin at those doors,my concern ain't about the equip however,its in the material handling.Runnin stock/wood is almost 100% predictable.........wrestling big,heavy doors?Thats where I think your ingenuity is gonna pay-off.Blocking under and some sort of "rack" for lack of better descript should be on the menu.Which can assist in the re-install.Conceivably,if the old doors are completely "trash"......you could hack whatever materials needed for the rack out of the exist door's lumber?

Doors in general,don't get the attention during the build/install that they deserve.Builders are so bloomin accustomed to "hang-it & wang-it" that when a special door or anything with even a remote amt of engineering enters the pic......it still gets treated like some "pre-hung" and it then becomes a struggle,after-the-fact.From a getting behind the 8-ball sort of way.Best,BW


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*My thoughts exactly BW*

My main concern is gettin' the old ones down safely and the new ones up in the opposite sort of manner. Gravity and Murphy's Law will play a large roll in both of those approaches. Also depending on how easily they can come off the tracks...just knock out a pin...unscrew the bolts...etc.
WE have access to a huge 4 X 4 John Deere with a bucket to use as a personell lift and to lift the door up. That'll be fun, a little bucket work! 
As far as the saw set up, It worked like a charm except for the overload switch cutting out when my "ambitious" son overfed it and it jammed and cut out. The extension cord is getting replaced today with a 12 gauge directly to a 20 Amp outlet. The hold down roller also prevents anyone's fingers from gettin' into the blade, which with the guard on would be unlikely anyhow. I really don't know what all the "criticism" was about and the fear of some "impressionable new comer" trying it. I really can't be responsible for policing the woodworking world for methods I use and feel comfortable with. Kickback was not an issue with the proper feed direction and a board that weighs about 50 lbs. That little saw could barely cut it, much less kick it back.  bill
BTW I don't know at this point, but I could certainly saw the old ones into 2 or 3 sections and leave the top for last....hmmm


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I personally think that looks like a cool set up Bill. Using that roller hold-down the way you are is very ingenuitive. I look forward to seeing the finished product.


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## johnnie52 (Feb 16, 2009)

woodnthings, it looks like you came up with a fine solution to a tough problem. Well done. Getting the old doors off may be safer if you dismantle them while they are hanging. That way you remove most of the weight and danger in trying to get them off in one piece.

The most reviled machine in any shop is the RAS.

Some folks love the RAS, others hate them. I've used mine for all kinds of cuts and never had a problem. In fact its my "go to" machine for most 90 degree cross cuts. It's all in the set-up and working safely. I have an older Dewalt and the blade guard moves down enough to make a hold down on the piece being ripped. That along with the anti-kick back pawls make for a very safe setup (IMO). 

I have safely used mine to resaw 2x6 boards into 1x6's for a tool stand I use for my thickness planner. Lowered the blade guard, set the pawls, and used a push board to finish the cuts. Piece of cake.

I like the idea of the rollers being used as hold downs. I may try to devise something like that for the next rip job I do on mine.

No offense Cman, but someone who is a novice wood worker probably doesn't own a RAS and by the time they acquire one, they should have developed the skills needed to use it safely.

Personally I love my RAS, and would be lost without it.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Bill,

Great hold down. :thumbsup:

I see nothing wrong with your procedure.

I also don't see why we shouldn't be able to share techniques between woodworkers. There are warnings on the site. 

You can't protect someone from them self. Sometimes I look at a person and wonder how they got to be that old... without getting run over crossing the street.

As far as someone viewing this, I think you showed great safety in your roller setup.





This is woodworking talk dot com... not Jr. bozo dot com. :smile:


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

mdntrdr said:


> Bill,
> 
> Great hold down. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



Man, I hear that!:yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mdntrdr said:


> I also don't see why we shouldn't be able to share techniques between woodworkers. There are warnings on the site.
> 
> You can't protect someone from them self. Sometimes I look at a person and wonder how they got to be that old... without getting run over crossing the street.
> 
> As far as someone viewing this, I think you showed great safety in your roller setup.


I agree that one purpose of WW'ng forums is to share techniques and methods. And you're right...we can't protect someone from them self. I'm glad Bill's project came through OK, and my good friend and son remained unscathed.

I guess when a lot of time is spent in the shop, one can get overly cautious and have the experience to forsee the possibilities of what can go wrong. I'm likely in that group. I have the propensity to offer suggestions that suit my better judgment for an open forum format. What I do personally that tips the scale and is in reality unsafe in someone else's book, I may consider safe. So I understand Bill's reasoning about the "What's Safe" question. Those procedures might get me through the day, but some of them I wouldn't document to others. 

As for Bill solving the how to rip long boards, I actually give him a gold star for being able to accomplish the task with the tools available. If he just didn't have all those table saws bolted together, and one...just one on a mobile base...:laughing:












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Thanks for the gold C-man*

Quote: 

As for Bill solving the how to rip long boards, I actually give him a gold star for being able to accomplish the task with the tools available. If he just didn't have all those table saws bolted together, and one...just one on a mobile base...:laughing:

Actually those 3 saws are in the upper level shop...and they're gonna' stay there.:yes: There were still a few more saws downstairs...on mobile bases..... but this seemed the most expedient way. The motor on that particular RAS is *underpowered* I must say....while we waited for the thermal overload to reset, we just gave up this AM, went to breakfast , haircuts and the farmers vegetable stand. Came back and it ran again OK. It's probably fine for cross cutting which is what I use them for 99.7% of the time, but not for ripping 14 ft lengths at a time. :no: I just won't use that saw in the future for rips. The 12 gauge extension cord helped a lot, it tripped on the last cut on the last of the 16 boards remaining.

Next step is cut to them length and rout the rabbetts.....


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> There were still a few more saws downstairs...on mobile bases..... but this seemed the most expedient way. The motor on that particular RAS is *underpowered* I must say....


I had a similar situation when I had to rip some 12/4 Mahogany, 20" wide...18' long. I did have a 14" 3 phase RAS. I had enough infeed and outfeed for both the RAS, and the table saw, but used the table saw as that was the safest most convenient and easiest machine to maneuver the stock. Table saws...ya just can't beat 'em.












 







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## Curly54 (Jul 30, 2011)

I use my RAS for nearly everything and I couldn't survive without and the cuts are amazing. Keep the chop saws.
I like that hold down roller that's nice.


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## Curly54 (Jul 30, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> You got your way, I got mine. If it don't feel safe don't do it...sound familiar? There was not even a hint of an issue lift up or otherwise with this set up and all the work was safely supported from end to end.My son and I worked together as a great team.
> Ripping on a RAS can be done safely.... otherwise 5 million RAS saws should be recalled nation wide just in case some bozo wants to try it without following the safety instructions and not using the safety equipment. And I didn't particularly want to find a 12 foot straight edge or cut to a marked line freehand, and measure each piece twice, actually 4 times, 2 on each end....etc...etc...
> 
> What I did find was the mill's straight line rip was less than straight on many of the 8 boards I have cut thus far...hmmm
> ...


I like your set up and also the RAS. Where did you get the roller is it homemade?
Also I built and put up a set of 5'x10' doors on my barn with a door in one of them. I built it on the hinges so to speak, on the barn. Only my son and i and i couldn't see picking it up. A few shims off the ground, glued and screwed everything. I'll get pictures and post them.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Build 'em in place...hmmmm*



Curly54 said:


> I like your set up and also the RAS. Where did you get the roller is it homemade?
> Also I built and put up a set of 5'x10' doors on my barn with a door in one of them. I built it on the hinges so to speak, on the barn. Only my son and i and i couldn't see picking it up. A few shims off the ground, glued and screwed everything. I'll get pictures and post them.


Pictures are always good!

That's not a bad idea. However, I just came up with the idea of building them on my 5 x 10 ft utility trailer which has a 12" rail around it.
Gets them off the ground to work on comfortably and loaded and ready for delivery! :laughing: bill

BTW the roller is from one of those elcheapo roller stands from HF. it just pops out when you push in one end.


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## Curly54 (Jul 30, 2011)

I wanted tracks but that was another $350.00-$400.00 I didn't have at the time and the hinges were available. These doors are 7 years old and I'm still painting them as you can see. They open and close about 2-3 times per week and still no sagging. It's 5/4 pine. The wood did shrink quite a bit, but it is a barn.


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## Klag (Jan 5, 2011)

I learned how to rip cross cut on an old RAS....when i was a kid....sure wish i had one again....man those thing are intimidating for a kid......


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

I really like the roller set up. If it were me, I would add a coil spring to push the roller against the YP.

Also for the dado plow pass, Try to use a finger board before and after the cutting area to hold the YP against the fence. Although I think that a router might be a better choice for the rabbet. Multiple passes though.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The roller setup*

The roller is from a roller stand at Harbor Fright. They just push in the axle and pop out. I drilled a 3/8 hole in the fence and then make a bracket and raised it up with a wooden spacer to be parallel. It seemed like a good idea
to prevent lift up, but turned out to be unnecessary for that but made a good finger blocker from a safety standpoint. WE had to use a push stick under the roller and then on top to get the board entirely through the blade.
My son was on that end pushing, and he got the hang of it real quick.

Actually in using the roller I left a 1/16" gap under the roller to allow for thickness variation from the mill. I never saw the board lift up and make the roller turn after probably close to 100 rips of the 14 ft edge. Did I mention how NOT straight the mill's straight line rips were? It was about 1 out of 3 that were perfect by my standards. At any rate, all the boards are ripped and as straight as I can make them. Since I'm gonna rabbett the edges on the boards they need to be as straight as possible for the best overlap and mating.

On to the rabbeting... I have a monster Porter Cable 518 router, one of the first of the 3.5 HP it's heavy. So I used that with a rabbet bit, a smaller 3/8" dia bearing on the bottom to make a 1/2" x 1/2" rabbet. The problem is that because the Cypress is a "fuzz" over 1" and the bearing is riding, below the rabbet, you have to make 2 passes per edge to get the correct depth, otherwise you have routed away your bearing surface.
So that's 4 passes per board...:furious: I switched to the Milwaukee 5625 . What a dream, :thumbsup: light weight, comfortable handles and convenient on/off switch. Much better than the PC.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

*Lookin Good!*

What did you use to cut the 2' off? Handsaw? :huh:

Got a plan for all them cutoffs? :smile:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A suggestion for rabbeting that may give an overall straighter edge would be to mount to your router edge guide jig a straightedge like this. The longer fence would track a less than perfect edge than a bearing that will seek every nook and cranny. This will permit you to use a 3/4" straight faced mortising bit.

There is also a production advantage in that a rabbeting bit machines at a different torque axis than a straight mortising bit. The theory is that the router seems to perform more effortlessly from an inline (straight) machining rather than the cutting action basically on the side. JMO...it's what works for me.












 







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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Cut offs*



mdntrdr said:


> What did you use to cut the 2' off? Handsaw? :huh:
> 
> *I used the "evil machine" in cross cut mode with a stop block at 12 ft to allow a bit extra.
> *
> ...


 bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Got 'R Done, sorta'*

I got the rest of the boards "milled" today. 18 double laps and 2 singles. Tried out a 3rd router using C-man's edge guide idea. The little 690 PC got 'r done. I'm gonna buy/make an edge guide for the Milwaukee. Man, I love that router. :thumbsup: 

I made a sun shade with a tarp rolled up on some 1 x's then used 2x 4's to prop it up. It only blew over 3 times in the 15 MPH breeze we had today, but what a difference not working in direct sun on a 90 degree day! :yes:

My son and I modified the trailer to use as an assembly table and transport means. Turned out pretty cool just over 11 ft long.

Tomorrow I start assembly if all goes well..... :blink: bill


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

The old PC 690 is a work horse, raised many a panel with mine.

BTW.. That looks like one of them Sunsetter awnings... gonna motorize it? :smile:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

mdntrdr said:


> The old PC 690 is a work horse, raised many a panel with mine.
> BTW.. That looks like one of them Sunsetter awnings... gonna motorize it? :smile:


Nope, that's a $8.99 Harbor Fright tarp. Don't need no stinkin' motor. I wouldn't mind a 40 x 60 pole barn though.....:laughing:
Michigan hillbilly engineered sun shade saved my arse. Only 2 showers and 4 soaked tee shirts. Funny how wood chips get down inside your shoes and socks, even in your pockets. Glad that part is over. :yes: bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Assembled the doors today*

I framed out and leveled the trailer to support the 1 x 10's and
started dry fitting them together. PROBLEM! Usuing the 2 different routers one with a bearing bit and the other with a straight cut bit and edge guide. Slightly different rabbets which did not mate with each other which I found out each time I got everything spaced out then noticed the gaps from the mis-match. 
OK take it all apart and re-rout using the edge guide. :furious:
Finally got the first one all assembled and we stayed in the shade by moving the trailer under the trees. That was a "brilliant" idea if I must say so.....:laughing: and apparently I'm the only one who cared.
I used "lifetime" coated torx deck screws. Pound it to start then impact it in...about 5 lbs worth so far, on about a 3" square grid. 6 screws per 1 x 12. OH yah, had to go to Armstrong Millworks this AM and get 8 pieces of 1 x 12" Cypress.


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

Looking forward to seeing how this one works out Bill. Looks like erecting the doors may be as much of a challenge as your RAS setup. Interesting thread.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Kenbo said:


> Looking forward to seeing how this one works out Bill. Looks like erecting the doors may be as much of a challenge as your RAS setup. Interesting thread.


All it should take is to knock on a few neighborhood doors and start with, "I have a few six packs and I could use your help...."


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*How they hangin' ?*

They are finally vertical! :thumbsup:
Pictures don't expain how, but they were slid off the trailer until they touched the ground, then walked up to vertical. The last one was tricky since my buddy had to high hurdle over the frame members on the trailer. :laughing: They measured 96" x 141 " and they are heavy, all Cypress. Rollers and brackets were stripped and repainted and oiled for the first time in 100 years probably. I'm glad this one is finally finished. :yes: bill


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Looks great! :thumbsup:

Sweet azz barn! :smile:


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Great job on the doors, man! Love those old barns. Does that one have the peg construction? Monster tenon joints?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This is a deconstructed/reconstructed barn*

First barn was 100 years old...according to the owner and located elsewhere. It was deconstructed, and reassembled on this property 100 years ago...according to the owner. That makes it 200 years old....not likely, but possible.
The posts inside have a ton of old mortise pockets where other wood was attached. The entire space is free span from the floor all the way up. It gets entirely filled with hay for the beef cattle my friend raises. My reward/barter for this project was a 1/2 side of organic beef. Melt in your mouth steaks. :thumbsup: bill


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Bill,just got back from spending 4 days in WmsBurg.........spent mucho time in the joiner's shop.They're re-building the Blacksmith's shop.The one they built/replicated 30 years ago had issue with sill being too close to ground,which failed....along with a cpl other reasons to redo.

Anyway,the joiners are making the windows/frames/shutters,all done with period handtools.The frames and sashes are reclaimed SYP but,the exterior shutters are being made with Cypress.No glue......vert grain on outside layer,horiz bds on inside of the two layer "system".The inners are shiplapped,outers are sq edged.The whole thing being held fast with cutnails(from Blacksmith shop),around 70 or so per,16x42" shutter.They're driven from inside out,where the 3/4" or so extra length is being clinched over.

Nice work on your doors,BW


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Rotting beams*

The concrete sill under the door was cracked and heaving so to level it out I removed some of the pieces revealing the ends of rotting beams. They are running into the barn at right angles and resting on the foundation. I 'll need a closer look under the first floor to see how far the rot goes. Possibly a post under each up the foundation wall or some cement blocks to carry the weight. 
On old building it's a vicious circle. By the time you fix the front door the back door is sagging and falling apart. :yes: bill


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

Nice job Bill man. Make sure you get a pic once the doors are completely painted. Congrats on a job well done. Looks like your son learned a few things as well. Awesome stuff.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Thanks Ken*



Kenbo said:


> Nice job Bill man. Make sure you get a pic once the doors are completely painted. Congrats on a job well done. Looks like your son learned a few things as well. Awesome stuff.


As posted above the doors may be done, but the track is sagging and the sill is shot and the beams are rotten..... done? Painted for sure but not done. :laughing: 
As far as my son learning a thing or two....possibly.:blink:
He announced a few nights ago he was NO. 1 in the World on his Need for Speed computer racing game..."I don't know if it matters" of course it matters. Now, hows about cleaning your room and vacuuming the shop...real world stuff "If it matters" :yes:
Things that matter to me are completely different to what matters to him. Go figure. :huh: bill


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*rotting beams*

I went back and took some photos of the rotting beam ends and from below. I recommended "sistering" by placing either wood or steel I beams next to the round ones, without fastening/attaching them. There's about a 3" dip in the floor across the opening from jamb to jamb. I'm not a Barn Guy, but I did stay in a Motel 6 where I had to turn the light on myself. Actually I had a Strength of Materials class in college many moons ago. It involved something called Calculus which has long been forgotten. I know enough to ask the right questions and make "suggestions". :blink: bill


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## Boss O' The Shop (Mar 21, 2012)

Boss O' The Shop said:


> I'm one of those crazy novice guys who might be tempted to try this some day...but only after I master basic cuts with my RAS. As for the roller, is it on the infeed or outfeed side of the blade? It appears to be on the infeed side, but I wanted to be sure.


Sorry guys...got ahead of myself and asked the question before reading the whole thread. Question answered in a later post! 

Very nice work on these doors...I bet it was a bugger getting them up and into position for hanging!


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