# RAS --- Push or Pull



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Two questions regarding Radial Arm Saws...

First, I have used one once, for 4 cuts. That is my experience with them. At that time I was shown to pull the head out, place my piece, then make the cut going forward. My Father-in Law tells me the cut should be made on the pull instead. This seems counter intuitive to me as it strikes me as the same as pushing wood through a table saw from the front. I am not taking a position here, I am looking to learn from those with more wisdom than I.

Second, I have been watching CL for a RAS and keep seeing an ad for one that is being sold for parts. Reason being is that the motor is good but the saw doesn't cut square. I haven't spoken to the seller yet but I am trying to thing of a reason the saw wouldn't cut straight that shouldn't be relatively simple to fix. The only thought coming to mind would be a bent arbor. Seller speaks of a bent part but doesn't identify the part or if he knows the problem. Would you take a chance on something like this for $40? 

The saw in question is a Delta, for what it is worth.


----------



## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

I have only used my RAS's with a pull cut.

It also gives you more cutting capacity.

Scott


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If there are 2 ways to do it*

Then you'll find proponents for either way. However, if you look at the physics of the tool:
Pulling the saw into the work, just like they do in every lumber yard I've been in for the last 40 years, the first teeth to enter the workpiece actually push the work into fence and down towards the table. As more teeth enter the workpiece the kerf is made through it and the final teeth are lifting it slightly off the table, but by that time the cut is complete.

Pushing the saw into the work, never seen it down commercially, the first teeth entering the workpiece are trying to lift it up off the table while you increase pressure to hold it down. :blink: This continues for the length of the cut.

Which seems safer to you?.... I report, you decide...:laughing: bill
I actually have 3 RAS at the present time....call me crazy:blink:
One of mine cost $40.00 used, I put a $40.00 blade on it, that was 15 years ago, still running great. Cutting 90 degrees is a simple fence alignment. Don't worry we'll help you with that issue.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

My preference is to pull into the stock to cut. If the saw is used to push into the stock to cut, the motor/blade is out towards the end of the arm each time stock is placed. This is dangerous, especially if the blade is still rotating.

Radial arm saws can be bought cheap when used. I would rather get one that doesn't have a major problem to start with.

A wise addition is a motor recoil. It's an automatic return of the motor to the rear when done with the cut, when the saw is unattended.


----------



## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

I have a RAS grab and throw stock before. So I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that wood. No way I would stand behind that sucker.


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

What Woodnthings and Cabinetman said. They are designed for a pull cut.

That being said, make sure you have the right blade on that unit. RAS (and sliding miter) blades should have a negative hook angle to prevent any tendency for the blade to dig in and come at you faster than expected. I use a Freud LU91 which cuts like a dream on the RAS. 

And stick to cross-cutting on the RAS. Ripping is for the table saw.

Bill


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Thank you for all the input. I am going to ask some questions on the saw in question and we'll see what the answers are. Hopefully I have a RAS here soon.


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

dodgeboy77 said:


> What Woodnthings and Cabinetman said. They are designed for a pull cut.
> 
> That being said, make sure you have the right blade on that unit. RAS (and sliding miter) blades should have a negative hook angle to prevent any tendency for the blade to dig in and come at you faster than expected. I use a Freud LU91 which cuts like a dream on the RAS.
> 
> ...


Is this blade selection important/possible for dado blades used on a RAS?


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

<<_Is this blade selection important/possible for dado blades used on a RAS? _>>

That's a really good question! Hopefully someone here can answer that.

My only experience is using it with an adjustable dado head (One of these days I need to buy a good dado set). I've had no problems but use it carefully.



Bill


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*It may but*

A negative hook dado set may not exist, I donno. I have and use this set: http://www.oshlun.com/stack_dado_sets.html
There is no tooth angle specified on the site. My set has a positive tooth angle as does my Freud 8" set. 
AS with any dado set use a very controlled feed, since you are essentially making multiple saw cuts simultaneously. It requires more HP and the work piece must be held securely on the RAS. :thumbsup: bill


----------



## olddutchman (Jul 4, 2008)

I have had a RAS for 30+ years and I have tried the push into the wood, 1 time. The wood went up, and into the arm and damaged the saw guard' causing a (brief) moment. Never did that again. All the directions I have ever read say pull. If You push, It might hurt


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Picked up a Craftsman RAS today for $140 and received a truck load of misc lumber as well. The blade needed to be changed but he included a fairly new carbide tipped blade that cuts nice. I haven't checked for square yet but I am happy with what I have seen so far.

PS My test cuts were all pull. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jim Jones (Mar 16, 2010)

Two comments...1) The RAS works by securing the stock against the fence of the RAS table and pulling the arbor out. The saw blade is turning clock wise and therfore is cutting down against the stock.
2) I would not suggest that you purchase today's RAS unless it is for industrial use. The RAS on the market the past 8 years or more are not as solid or accurate as in the past. I know I have owned two. 1970's was solid and held it's adjustments. 1990's + forget about it. If you want overhead control purchase a sliding miter saw. They are as close as you will get to the concept of an RAS. Purchase a solid cabinet saw and a sliding miter and you will not regret your purchase. 
Hope this helped.


----------



## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

I've never seen anybody back feed a radial arm saw. I wouldn't do it. My favorite cut off saw is a jump saw.


----------



## Ghidrah (Mar 2, 2010)

Ever had a radial climb over the stock on a pull? A pull on a radial is like a climb cut on a router table, both push the stock onto the table or into the fence, both can be very dangerous.

A push is more like a circular saw cut the blade pulls the material to the bed not push it. A TS pulls the stock to the table.

The only redeeming value in a radial pull is that the cut can be very clean.


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Jim, The saw I got is at least twenty years old. It appears to have been lightly used but I think it was stored in a carport. I hope that doesn't bite me in the butt.

Ghidrah, That was what I was thinking as well. I did see I am getting nice cuts on the pull but have also found I have to be careful or the saw will try and race me to the end of the cut. I hate it when the saw wins.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Ghidrah said:


> Ever had a radial climb over the stock on a pull? A pull on a radial is like a climb cut on a router table, both push the stock onto the table or into the fence, both can be very dangerous.
> 
> * A push is more like a circular saw cut the blade pulls the material to the bed not push it. A TS pulls the stock to the table.*
> 
> The only redeeming value in a radial pull is that the cut can be very clean.


All circular saw push into the work. The difference is the base plate is resting on the work. With a RAS the work is resting on the base/table Completely opposite! There is nothing except the pressure exerted by your hand downward to prevent the work from lifting off the table when you push the saw in toward the fence. The RAS will "climb" into the work if you pull too fast, but it will just bog down and stall. The proper tooth angle on the blade will prevent this
Push the saw at your own risk. It's not advised in the owner's manuals. I never do it myself. Nor have I have ever seen it done commercially, :no: bill


----------



## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> All circular saw push into the work. The difference is the base plate is resting on the work. With a RAS the work is resting on the base/table Completely opposite! There is nothing except the pressure exerted by your hand downward to prevent the work from lifting off the table when you push the saw intoward the fence. The RAS will not "climb" into the work if you pull too fast, it will just bog down and stall.
> Push the saw at your own risk. It's not advised in the owner's manuals. I never do it myself. Nor have I have ever seen it done commercially, :no: bill


 
My radial arm saw will climb the workpiece if I pull it to fast or dont hang on to it tight enough. But I am pulling the saw. There is no way in hell I am going to stand behind the blade of a radial arm saw. In fact, I would give mine away if it wasn't my dads. He thinks that saw is the greatest thing since peanut butter.


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

<< _...but have also found I have to be careful or the saw will try and race me to the end of the cut. I hate it when the saw wins. _ >>

That's why you want a blade with a negative hook angle.

Bill


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Scotty,

Just DON'T use a table saw blade in the RAS. Using a table saw blade is a sure recipe for disaster. The RAS requires a blade with a negative hook angle. These blades are less aggressive in clawing their way through the wood. A table saw has an aggressive positive hook angle and in a RAS the carriage could be roaring at you at alarming speed. 

Lay a ruler across the diameter of the blade. Do the teeth lean away from the ruler? That is a negative hook angle. Do the teeth hook under the ruler? That is a positive hook angle.

BTW - It is possible to use a negative hook angle blade on a table saw. The results are typically a much finer cut.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Rich is right!*

The proper blade, negative hook angle, will reduce the tendency to "climb" into the work when pulling the saw toward you. I edited my previous post to clarify this. Thanks Rich. :thumbsup:
BTW I don't think this was known at the time these saws were introduced, and they got a bad reputation as a result.

Another reputation killer on RAS was RIPPING on them. For the reason I stated before, the teeth wanting to lift the board off the table and not being able to properly push it down during the ripping operation using the nose of the blade guard, the saw would launch the workpiece into the next area code. My RAS are only used for cross cutting, never ripping, even though I have done this safely and successfully before.
I just use a table saw,designed for RIPPING and which comes with a RIP fence.  bill


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Another reputation killer on RAS was RIPPING on them. For the reason I stated before, the teeth wanting to lift the board off the table and not being able to properly push it down during the ripping operation using the nose of the blade guard, the saw would launch the workpiece into the next area code. My RAS are only used for cross cutting, never ripping, even though I have done this safely and successfully before.
> I just use a table saw,designed for RIPPING and which comes with a RIP fence.  bill



It's not only that, the fact of passing a hand behind the blade, or having the arm near the blade in order to move the stock through the blade and keep it against the fence at the same time.


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

rrich said:


> Scotty,
> 
> Just DON'T use a table saw blade in the RAS. Using a table saw blade is a sure recipe for disaster. The RAS requires a blade with a negative hook angle. These blades are less aggressive in clawing their way through the wood. A table saw has an aggressive positive hook angle and in a RAS the carriage could be roaring at you at alarming speed.
> 
> ...


Thank you again for that reminder Rich. When I got the saw it had a veneer blade on it and he was confused as to why he was burning the wood when cutting 1/2" ply. He threw in a Table saw carbide tipped blade and I didn't think anything of it at the time. I will have to get a good negative hook blade for it in the near future. Right now the priority is the reassembly of the Table Saw. Funny how priorities change when you get a bug up......


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, today I installed the recall kit on my RAS and lubed things up a bit. It now needs the proper blade ($65 OUCH) and I am thinking about adding the laser from Rockler.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

ScottyB said:


> ...and I am thinking about adding the laser from Rockler.



I wouldn't waste my money.


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Scotty wrote:

<< It now needs the proper blade ($65 OUCH)>>

I think that you'll find that it's a well spent $65, both in safety and cut quality.

I agree with Cabinetman about the laser. I have one on my Ridgid miter saw (it came with it) and I mostly ignore it.

Bill


----------



## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

dodgeboy77 said:


> Scotty wrote:
> 
> << It now needs the proper blade ($65 OUCH)>>
> 
> ...


I'm not saying the blade isn't worth it and I will be doing it soon. I'm just not used to paying that much for a blade when I used to pay much less for cheap blades. It takes a bit to get used to spending more for quality tools.


----------



## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I have two RASs and they are both over 35 years old...Dewalts...very reliable and versitle. You can use a drum sanding attachment and a disk. Still do most riping on the table saw. Now, I don`t recomend puting a dado set on a RAS because I`m not sure the blade guard would fit right...and, a stack set of blades has way too much drag to use on top of a moving work piece!! Use your sence, if it looks and sounds scary...probably not a good idea. I did build a sled to use for taper rips on thin material...the blade stays parallel to the fence...run a shallow curf in the sled...then pin the piece you`re tappering to the sled ( aligning the tapper to the test curf ) works great!! In conclusion...if you`re going to rip on the RAS...the blade guard, really needs to be re-designed. Rick


----------



## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

ScottyB wrote:
I'm not saying the blade isn't worth it and I will be doing it soon. I'm just not used to paying that much for a blade when I used to pay much less for cheap blades. It takes a bit to get used to spending more for quality tools. 

That is the way I felt the first time I bought a couple of blades from Forest. Paid $100.00 each for them. Almost made me sick. But, I've used the crap out of them and they are still going. 

As for the RAS, I perfer using a dado on it rather then on a TB. I much perfer to be able to see what I'm cutting as opposed to cutting blind. The thing you have to do most of is what your supposed to do every time you walk into the shop...Safety first. Always be aware of what your doing and just because you've done it time and again, don't think this time will be the same. That is when things will go wrong. (IMO) :yes:


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Instead of buying a laser, buy wood! 

With an RAS, you mark the wood, bring the blade forward and align the left side cutting tooth with the mark, push the blade back, hold the wood in place, turn the saw on and finally make the cut. 

With a laser you'll get a laser line about 3/32" wide. You'll find that the left edge or the right edge or the center of the laser beam is accurate, most of the time.


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

Scotty,

I'm guessing you're after the Freud LU91R010. I looked around the web a bit for prices and you're right, $65 w/ free shipping is as cheap as I could find one (Amazon).* 

Bill
*


----------



## wood player (Jan 21, 2011)

Many moons ago I worked at a custom woodworking shop we had three Ras saws 2 were 16 inch saws and one was 12 inch. The higher hp saws were safer because they would cut insted of grab. we were using dado blades and developed a pull and push technique at the same time.(mail box posts)I won't tell of some of the other things we did with them. When you are doing somthing stupid you are extra careful. I even still have all ten fingers but it isn't the bosses fault.


----------



## DST (Jan 10, 2011)

When I started acquiring tools I was advised to leave the RAS at the garage sales and get a sliding CMS. I was told it was a safer option and RAS was out of date unless for production work. I'm happy with my choice. 
BTW you push cut on a sliding CMS unless I read my instructions wrong in which case knowing you all I will soon stand corrected


----------



## Jammer (Jul 15, 2009)

You guys need to establish whether he's talking about a genuine radial arm saw or a radial chop saw.

They're different beasts. One operates on the pull, the other on the push.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Jammer Six said:


> You guys need to establish whether he's talking about a genuine radial arm saw or a radial chop saw.
> 
> They're different beasts. One operates on the pull, the other on the push.


He stated Radial Arm Saw RAS not Sliding Miter saw. It is still the same theory that Bill (WoodnThings) described in his first post.

Pulling is my answer.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

DST said:


> When I started acquiring tools I was advised to leave the RAS at the garage sales and get a sliding CMS. I was told it was a safer option and RAS was out of date unless for production work. I'm happy with my choice.
> BTW you push cut on a sliding CMS unless I read my instructions wrong in which case knowing you all I will soon stand corrected


The RAS is a good tool. They use to offer allot of different attachments that according to Dewalt was an open invitation to lawsuits because they were dangerous. I think that is partially true but the RAS is hard to keep aligned if you use it for more then just straight cuts. they are great for cutoff and dado cuts if you use it for those purposes only.

The sliding miter saws are great for Miters and compound miters, straight cuts and maybe even portability although a 12" sliding miter, dual bevel saw can be quite heavy.

They each have there own purposes and it's a personal preference as to what your happy with. I like both but I have the RAS and a 10" sliding miter saws. much easier to carry around.

I would think the blade lifting the wood would be the same as on a RAS or sliding miter but if your owners manual says push then it's up to you. I looked at one on line and I didn't see that nor do I remember reading it in mine.


----------



## klr650 (Apr 4, 2010)

Yeah what he said. You don't push cut on a sliding mitre saw for the same reason you wouldn't on a RAS


----------



## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

I've got an old Craftsman saw that I've been using for three or four years, and I always cut on the push. Why? Because there's a big honking warning label in bright red next to the handle that says "DANGER: TO AVOID INJURY DO NOT FEED MATERIAL INTO CUTTING TOOL FROM THIS END." I can't help thinking that's probably there for a reason... The splitter and anti-kickback arms are also on that end, so it really makes a lot more sense for that end to reach the wood after it's cut. I've never had a problem with it burning wood (except when the blade was dull), trying to climb, or throwing anything. I've used it for ripping, although I won't be doing that again now that I have a table saw.

Now... it's possible my saw is just weird. That wouldn't much surprise me. Certainly a RAS with a splitter doesn't seem to be a common thing. But that's been my experience, for whatever it's worth.


----------



## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

amckenzie4 said:


> I've got an old Craftsman saw that I've been using for three or four years, and I always cut on the push. Why? Because there's a big honking warning label in bright red next to the handle that says "DANGER: TO AVOID INJURY DO NOT FEED MATERIAL INTO CUTTING TOOL FROM THIS END." I can't help thinking that's probably there for a reason...


 
I believe that warning is for ripping operation. :smile:


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What he said!*



mdntrdr said:


> I believe that warning is for ripping operation. :smile:


The key word is "feeding" to my thinking, regardless of the physics, common sense, and the owner's manuals instructions.....That label can be taken in more than one way. :yes: *The label should say "When ripping, feed boards from opposite end*" (from handle).
Pulling the saw into the work is slightly different than "feeding", to me. When I feed a workpiece into a cutter which is stationary, blade, router bit etc. the piece moves not the cutter.
RAS got a bad reputation from inadequate instructions, improper labels and some were not equipped with movable blade guards on the bottom of the blade to cover the moving blade.
The RAS should have another label that says "*Gradually pull saw into workpiece while holding it firmly against fence*." or some such wording that means something similar.
The RAS can be used for ripping and needs another label* "The nose of* *the guard must be resting on the workpiece when ripping"* to hold it down, because the rotational forces of the blade tend to lift it off the table. It can be done but you need to understand the physics and all safety aspects of the operation. :yes: bill


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

mdntrdr said:


> I believe that warning is for ripping operation. :smile:


Ditto , You don't feed the material except when ripping, Other then that your material is fixed and you move the saw. If you feed from that direction while ripping it will shoot the wood threw the other side since the teeth would be pulling the material in. It's like feeding the material into a router from the wrong direction.

So yes that label is there for a reason, just not the one your thinking of.


----------



## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

mdntrdr said:


> I believe that warning is for ripping operation. :smile:


I don't think so... if you try pulling the blade through the wood, it burns it, kicks, climbs, does everything but yell and scream. My father used to use the saw by pulling (he knew, because it was common knowledge, that you should always pull a RAS through the wood) and it NEVER worked right. Once I pointed out the sign and he switched, it started cutting faster, cleaner, and smoother.

As I say, my saw may be an anomaly, but that's definitely how it works.


----------



## klr650 (Apr 4, 2010)

It's entirely possible that your saw rotates in the opposite direction as most others. Might even be the reason why there's a big notice on it.


----------



## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

amckenzie4 said:


> I don't think so... if you try pulling the blade through the wood, it burns it, kicks, climbs, does everything but yell and scream. My father used to use the saw by pulling (he knew, because it was common knowledge, that you should always pull a RAS through the wood) and it NEVER worked right. Once I pointed out the sign and he switched, it started cutting faster, cleaner, and smoother.
> 
> As I say, my saw may be an anomaly, but that's definitely how it works.



You are right about the climbing that is a bad flaw with the RAS, however the newer Craftsman RAS has a auto feed limit that is meant to correct the flaw. It won't allow it to climb. People use to add a counter weight to old saws to counter the climbing but it can be corrected with knowing that it will happen and holding pressure to allow a slower feed.. 

As for the burning that is probably blade related. Others can explain the type blade needed for a RAS over other saws but there is a difference.

Hey if your comfortable with the pushing then I'm not going to try and change your mind. I and others can give our opinions but it's your choice to follow or ignore.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

amckenzie4 said:


> I don't think so... if you try pulling the blade through the wood, it burns it, kicks, climbs, does everything but yell and scream. My father used to use the saw by pulling (he knew, because it was common knowledge, that you should always pull a RAS through the wood) and it NEVER worked right. Once I pointed out the sign and he switched, it started cutting faster, cleaner, and smoother. As I say, my saw may be an anomaly, but that's definitely how it works.


Go to Home Depot or any lumber yard and watch how they use the saw...they PULL IT! If you want to push it, go ahead, but you're asking for trouble. Read your owner's manual or find one online. There are plenty of You Tube Videos on the RAS watch 2:20 secs on this:


----------



## AxlMyk (Mar 13, 2007)

amckenzie4 said:


> I don't think so... if you try pulling the blade through the wood, it burns it, kicks, climbs, does everything but yell and scream.


That is a problem with the motor being skewed in the carriage. There are adjustments for that. The saw needs a complete tune up.
On the DeWalt saws, that adjustment is marked in this picture.


----------



## dodgeboy77 (Mar 18, 2009)

On that video, I paused the frame where he jammed the saw. You can see that he had a very aggressive (positive hook angle) blade on that RAS. They are much more likely to dig in and run at you or "kick back" as he called it. A negative hook angle blade is less likely to do that.

Bill


----------

