# How do you attach face frames to the cabinet box?



## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm wanting to learn to build cabinets and furniture that would use face frames. I looked at the store bought furniture I have here and their face frames are attached using an extra strip of wood inside the cabinet right in the corner just behind the face frame. It's just screwed to the side panels and then screwed to the face frames also. I always thought these were normally attached using a plate joiner, and biscuits, and glue? But this looks like it would work and save me needing to buy a plate joiner.


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

You can use biscuits however I typically just pin the faceframe in a few inconspicuous spots to keep it aligned and then clamp (headless pin 23g nailer works great and is cheaper than a biscuit joiner :smile


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

So, you shoot the pins through it from the front? I'm assuming wood filler might be used after that to touch up the resulting hole or any air gun marks left from this? I don't have a pin nailer but do have an 18 gauge brad nailer. Is this too much?

Also, it occurs to me that a slot cutter on a router table might work here. I could run the face frame wood through it end to end and also do the plywood for the carcass as well, then just use biscuits and glue from one end to the other in the slots and not need a plate joiner. Since I have no experience with this, am I overlooking any reason why this won't work?


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## Taylormade (Feb 3, 2011)

A lot of people I know use pocket screws to attach the face frames. They drill from the back.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

I rabbet the box to fit into a dado on the face-frame the glue use brads on the backside angled through the joint and clamp.

I hate nails going through the face-frame. I will do it for paint grade only but i still don't like it.

I'm still not sold on using pocket screws for the face-frames much less attaching them to the box.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

rrbrown said:


> I rabbet the box to fit into a dado on the face-frame the glue use brads on the backside angled through the joint and clamp.
> 
> I hate nails going through the face-frame. I will do it for paint grade only but i still don't like it.
> 
> I'm still not sold on using pocket screws for the face-frames much less attaching them to the box.


Ah, yes, a dado. Why didn't I think of that?


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## Marv (Nov 30, 2008)

A 23g _*headless*_ pin is a lot smaller than an 18g brad and barely leaves a mark (I wouldn't use an 18g if it is stain grade as mentioned). If you are careful where you place them (I look for a dark spot in the grain) a 23g pin will never be noticed and no putty is needed. One thing I should mention is that I have been building cabinets for over 20 years and it took a while to learn to place the clamps before the glue sets without knocking anything out of square as well as finding the best place to drive the pin. Although more time consuming, one of the other methods mentioned may work better for you as they allow some "fudge factor".


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Taylormade said:


> A lot of people I know use pocket screws to attach the face frames. They drill from the back.


Kreg jig is how I attached the last one i did....worked like a charm and its FAST


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## Burt (Nov 16, 2009)

I used pocket hole/screws with no problems encountered. From cabinet box sides,top and bottom screwed into backside of face frame.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I don't usually build face framed cabinets, but all that is necessary is glue and clamps. There is so much surface contact with glue, that doing anything else is overkill. Using fixed mounting procedures, like biscuits, dowels, dadoes, rabbets, can offset the case to the faceframe, by the time it's ready to be installed.

In theory, a face frame is supposed to square (or help square) the front of the leading edge of the cabinet, and add rigidity, besides carrying the action and weight of the doors. I don't use pocket screws, and just about any joinery at the corners will prevail as all the parts are glued to the cabinet.

An old trick to install a FF is to use 4d finishing nails, and tap into the leading edge of the cabinet. Snip off the heads on an angle, leaving about 1/4" protruding. With these sticking out, tap the face frame on.








 







.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

Is it reasonable to expect face frames to support doors without coming off under their weight if the frames are just glued on? I have a project, a fishing rod cabinet, where I'm going to need to make a pair of doors, each about 7 feet tall and 18 inches wide or less, but not more. I figured the weight of the doors would be several pounds each.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Is it reasonable to expect face frames to support doors without coming off under their weight if the frames are just glued on? I have a project, a fishing rod cabinet, where I'm going to need to make a pair of doors, each about 7 feet tall and 18 inches wide or less, but not more. I figured the weight of the doors would be several pounds each.


Yes, just glue and clamps.









 







.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Glue and clamps.


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## rf58 (Nov 27, 2012)

i allways glue them first ------ then when dry ------- use pocket screws i a few places


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Overkill


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## red (Sep 30, 2008)

Just glue and clamps will do the job. Just make sure the face frame does not slide out of place while adjusting the clamps. It will hold the door(s) no problem.

Red


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

red said:


> Just glue and clamps will do the job. Just make sure the face frame does not slide out of place while adjusting the clamps. It will hold the door(s) no problem.
> 
> Red


That face frame sliding thing is why I use the dado and rabbet. It may be a little extra work but alignment, strength and ease of attaching the face frame is much better then just glue and clamp. Once your use to doing it that way it seems easy.

As for the glue and clamp being strong enough. A properly glued joint once fully cured will be stronger than the wood it's self.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

I think I'll do the dado and rabbet method of attachment. Seems like it would be pretty easy and plenty strong and eliminate some hassles of doing it.

Thanks to all for the ideas.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

rrbrown said:


> That face frame sliding thing is why I use the dado and rabbet. It may be a little extra work but alignment, strength and ease of attaching the face frame is much better then just glue and clamp. Once your use to doing it that way it seems easy.
> 
> As for the glue and clamp being strong enough. A properly glued joint once fully cured will be stronger than the wood it's self.


I use the finishing nail trick and find it easy to align and clamp a face frame without it slipping.
Tom


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## MrSlurpee (Nov 15, 2012)

I've been building face framed cabinets and furniture since I was a kid in my dad's shop. I can't think of a time we ever put a nail through the face frame (unless we were painting). 75% of the time we just use glue and clamps. That's usually just with cabinets. With bigger pieces of furniture, like a chest of drawers, we used the rabbit and dado method. 

If you are using a complicated face frame, that has a lot of pieces and openings, using the rabbit and dado method is your best bet to make sure each part of the cabinet is flush with the face frame. For a basic face frame with only a few pieces, glue and clamps is just fine.


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## rf58 (Nov 27, 2012)

I PUT A white oak FACE FRAME ON A cabinet i made ---- a guy gave me the MDF OAK WOOD?? 3/4" I THINK that is what you call it---- it is a very very heavy and looks like very fine saw dust..----THAT i used the top AND and the SHELVES .... i glued the edges let i dry about 20 min then reglued and put it togeather. no screws how do you think the diferent types of wood will hold in time not a nail in it just the face frame is pocket screwed.
*how woulld you have done it.*


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Veneered MDF is a common core. Pre applying the glue wasn't necessary. Just put a bead of glue on the MDF and spread it making sure not to put it on to thin/dry. You should have some squeeze out, but not excessive. Clamp with good pressure using a board to spread the pressure out. The joint should be strong and should last a good long time.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> I'm wanting to learn to build cabinets and furniture that would use face frames. I looked at the store bought furniture I have here and their face frames are attached using an extra strip of wood inside the cabinet right in the corner just behind the face frame. It's just screwed to the side panels and then screwed to the face frames also. I always thought these were normally attached using a plate joiner, and biscuits, and glue? But this looks like it would work and save me needing to buy a plate joiner.


I might use a screw block (or glue block), that you describe in your OP, if I wanted an extra heavy duty face-frame to cabinet connection such as if you were building some can racks for the back of some pantry cabinet doors with the hinges mounted to the stiles of the face frame. All full of cans it could weigh a lot.

As many previously commented, a good glue bond between the flat front edge of the cabinet case and the back of the FF is sufficient. I made the attachment in all kinds of different ways and I never had a FF come off a cabinet when it wasn't supposed to. 

I should mention that I have always used 3/4" materials for all my finished ends and partitions. I don't think I could trust the glue only joint if it was made to the edge of only 1/2" materials. Another thing I've always done is I use 3/4" plywood stiffeners behind all the face frame rails. This makes the cabinet pretty bomb proof.

I once had a previously misinformed client question the integrity of the cabinet construction method we used. We were in the shop at the time and there was a nearly completed double sink vanity on the bench in front of us. Without saying much I rolled the vanity onto it's back, climbed up on the cabinet and began walking around on the face frame pausing in a couple of places to jump up and down for emphasis. I then asked the client if any of my competitors offered such a demonstration. He followed me back to the office and happily signed the contract.

Bret

You can see the stiffeners behind the rails in this photo of these rustic hickory cabinets.


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## Dave66 (Apr 6, 2012)

> each about 7 feet tall and 18 inches wide or less, but not more. I figured the weight of the doors would be several pounds each.


Glue and clamps will be fine for the faceframe, but you'll probably want to use at least four hinges on each door.



In general, I make faceframes ~1/16" - 1/8" wider than the carcass and leave a bit of overhang on both sides. If the side will be visible, I use a flush trimming bit to trim the faceframe flush. If it will be hidden, I leave it as is so installation only requires aligning the faceframes and not the entire sides of the cabinets Makes installation way easier. - lol


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