# Shellac question



## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Know there are shellac naysayers out there and that's ok. My question: when using shellac as a furniture finish is it better to start with a heavier cut and end with a lighter cut, vice versa, or consistent cut throughout?


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## MastersHand (Nov 28, 2010)

sawdustfactory said:


> Know there are shellac naysayers out there and that's ok. My question: when using shellac as a furniture finish is it better to start with a heavier cut and end with a lighter cut, vice versa, or consistent cut throughout?


Cabby your up

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## lawrence (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks SDF, thats one of the questions I keep forgetting to ask


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

I use a consistent layer but I'm no expert by any means. If using as a sealer over stain then I can see the logic in starting off with a thin coat. I would think it would penetrate better. Someone will be along shortly to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## larrynj (Jan 27, 2012)

i always use a 1 lb cut for a sealer coat, good on open pored woods, and a second sealer coat for good measure. apply stain over the sealer coat to prevent any blotching. then 2 coats of 2lb cut for a nice glossy finish.

i buy shellac flakes, not the canned stuff from home depot. mix it up as needed. you'll need a postal scale for dry weight to measure out the shellac, and mix with denatured alcohol. let it sit overnight to completely dissolve the shellac flakes. the wax that is naturally part of the shellac will sink to the bottom and can be strained out.

i've read that shellac has uv resistent qualities, and is also water resistent after drying. not a good finish for a table top where someone can set down an alcoholic drink. the booze will leave a ring. that can be removed by wiping with some denatured alcohol and a new coat of shellac over the area of the ring.

i'm pretty much self-taught on the subject but have been using it successfully for a very long time. i posted some pics in my introduction thread on this forum a few weeks back.

here's a link to the pics -
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f3/new-guy-new-jersey-35212/

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f8/refinishing-chestnut-foyer-35306/


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

With Shellac there really is only one consideration: Do you want a sealer coat? 

If so then do that first with a thinner cut.

If you try making your shellac too thick you run the risk of a slow dry and a contaminated finish from the crap in the air. So if build is your game just apply more shellac. 

I don't think there is any reason to abrade between coats because like lacquer, Shellac burns in. So you'll only need to sand between coats if your finish got contaminated. 

My sole objection to Shellac (aside from it being somewhat gross) is that it is not a durable as I''d prefer. 

Tell your wimin folk where it comes from while they have their food setting right on it.
"Oh, it's this nasty exudation from these ugly gross bugs in India. They secret it to gross-out other bugs and predators and it keeps 'em off. "
Then watch their faces.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Maybe I'm just different, but my preferences are to use a more durable finish than shellac. IMO it's just too soft. For a sprayed finish, a waterbase polyurethane, lacquer, or conversion varnish is far superior. 










 







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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. I understand that shellac is not as durable as other choices, but the pieces this will be applied to will not be taking the kind of abuse that necessitates a harder finish. I really don't like the look or feel of water based poly, but thats just my personal preference. I also don't have a sprayer or spray booth, so anything other than rattle cans are out for me. I was just curious if there were benefits to thin before thick or using different cuts. Thanks again for all the answers.


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

I am varnishing my boat and at first I sealed with shellac 1lb cut, .....now I seal with violin ground type of sealer/ground, the visual effect of chatoyance depth distinction of image, etc is better from the violin stuff, and since it's a one/two coats only, not so much more expensive, but really enhances the look.

Than I continue with extra blonde dewaxed shellac, 1Lb cut 2 coats, (the more thin coats and the longer you wait to dry in between, the more resistant your finish will be) than 2 Lb cut, color with shellac (all thin coats) and only if I need I apply 2 part poly, if the place will not receive too much water etc, I finish it with shellac, it looks so much better than poly when side by side it's ridiculous - it's like the difference of palace in Italy/England to an apartment in Miami...shellac has finesse.


For the last coats I go back to 1LB cut and thinning even more on the last few coats.

As far as coloring I use pigments or dyes from Kramer.and orange shellac it enhances the looks so much, plus I get some color changes when looking from different angles, if interest please let me know and I will elaborate on the subject.

As for the violin ground, if your stuff is not too big, I would write to Joe Robson and ask him what he recommends. His stuff is like precious gems. His balsam ground system is beautiful.

http://www.violinvarnish.com/

Even only his Prime Oil (I payed $12 from Howard Core online) only behind shellac is much better than the normal BLO type of stuff.

_Prime oil is a mixture of highly polymerized and purified linseed oil with oil of turpentine. Applied after the coloring process it enhances the depth of reflection of the raw wood.__
_


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

I prefer kusmi button lac, it has gone through the least amount of chemical processing, has all its wax, and is the most water resist and and alcohol resistant of the types available. 

Now, here's the problem, lol - "you" have to do all the refining yourself, which is time consuming, expensive [relatively] and if looking for a quick way, not so good of choice. 

On the other hand - it will increase the melting point by approx. 2-3 degreed Celsius, [ 35-37 degrees f] nothing to sneeze at! and will also have improved alco/water resistance. It will also have better shelf life, better clarity, and no harmful contaminates that the refined lacs do. No bound chlorine, no oxalic acid, and "NO" wax!!

But that is my own humble findings, not opinions, And if you'd rather not set up and spend a couple of hundred bucks on refining lab equipment i totally understand, lol. :yes:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

sawdustfactory said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I understand that shellac is not as durable as other choices, but the pieces this will be applied to will not be taking the kind of abuse that necessitates a harder finish. I really don't like the look or feel of water based poly, but thats just my personal preference. I also don't have a sprayer or spray booth, so anything other than rattle cans are out for me. I was just curious if there were benefits to thin before thick or using different cuts. Thanks again for all the answers.


Sorry sawdust, overlooked your wanted answer in regaurds of others comments.

If you use shellac always use thin coats if applied by hand i would advise either lint free cotton or especially linen, both available from your local fabric shops. [though you may have to wash them a few times before using]

Personally i never pad on a coat thicker than a 1 lb. cut, whether it be in friction polishing or padding the lac. even when sprayed i rarely go heavier then 1 lb. cut, ok? In Frenching, i use a half pound cut all the way through. The idea is to build the thinnest coats possible so that drying takes little time, with a thin coat you can reapply the next in an hour or so depending on climatic conditions, if friction polishing, a half hour is usually plenty of time between coats. The alcohol evaporates out very fast this way and you avoid most of the objections expressed on here ok?

fresh made shellac in thin coats such as in friction polishing can build a film that is able to withstand 5 or more hours direct contact with water, 10-20 min with contact with lower alcohol content potables, [think any below or not above 45% alcohol.] but especially wines and such. 

Just be sure to purchase bleached dewaxed shellac if your going to make your own ok? i advise not using off the shelf shellac ever, no matter what brand, but if you must, then use zinsser "sealcoat" in the way i have described here ok? just thin it down 50/50 or a little more.


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

no question about it the thinner the coat, the better......

Chemmy I'll start using your dilution rates in all my smaller or more important items.....thanks:thumbsup:


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> no question about it the thinner the coat, the better......
> 
> Chemmy I'll start using your dilution rates in all my smaller or more important items.....thanks:thumbsup:


Yes small items are fine, when i do smaller items i usually use smaller pads also as to not get the surface more wet, even as small as a dime at times depending, like say a small jewelry box or even violin, this allows more time for each coat to dry properly instead of a larger pad that would keep it to wet since the areas is so much smaller, many don't know this, but many also do. 

you can body up the surface much quicker by not working the surface more than 3-4 rounds and then walking away for 20 - 30 min in between and allowing drying. to many people work the lac to long at a time and end up spoiling the work by getting it or keeping it to wet, patients is a virtue. :yes:


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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

Yes shellac is UV resistant, and yes it comes from beetle secretions, but it is used as a coating on some pills and candies since it's edible (which seems like it might be a good finish for children's furniture and it's easily repaired) so I wouldn't get too grossed out over having it on a table. I like it because it's non toxic when dry and seals in the underlying product so no out gassing if you use it on mdf etc. I love orange shellac on pine especially after the pine darkens a bit. 
What I'd like to know is a cheap source for orange shellac flakes so I can mix it up as needed instead of storing it in the refrigerator and hoping for the best.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Lostinwoods said:


> Yes shellac is UV resistant, and yes it comes from beetle secretions, but it is used as a coating on some pills and candies since it's edible (which seems like it might be a good finish for children's furniture and it's easily repaired) so I wouldn't get too grossed out over having it on a table. I like it because it's non toxic when dry and seals in the underlying product so no out gassing if you use it on mdf etc. I love orange shellac on pine especially after the pine darkens a bit.
> What I'd like to know is a cheap source for orange shellac flakes so I can mix it up as needed instead of storing it in the refrigerator and hoping for the best.


http://shellac.net/ShellacPricing.html Im not saying there the cheapest, you could search for better prices but since i don't do much polishing anymore i can buy my button lac from them 1/2 lb. at a time, if dewaxed orange is what you like it is there also plus about 20 others, they also have been offering black shellac resin which with 3-4- coats give darker woods a very blackish look, it does not contain any pigments or dyes, not sure where it comes from, but i bought a 1/2 lb last year just to try, pretty neat if you like the look. they also have the alcohol/retarder/flatting agent and other, pretty much a one stop shop.

By the way, the shellac coatings for pills and food etc, go through extra processing which ruins them for finishing purposes. That's why i do not use water base shellacs that target or others make.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sawdustfactory said:


> I really don't like the look or feel of water based poly, but thats just my personal preference. I also don't have a sprayer or spray booth, so anything other than rattle cans are out for me.


If you don't have spray capabilities, and haven't seen or felt a sprayed WB finish, how do you know you wouldn't like it?










 







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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

I've brushed and sprayed WB poly a plenty when I was a house painter. Just feels too artificial or plastic to me.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sawdustfactory said:


> I've brushed and sprayed WB poly a plenty when I was a house painter. Just feels too artificial or plastic to me.


What a coincidence. That's what shellac feels like to me.:yes: Just out of curiosity...what does a house painter use water base poly on?










 







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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

Hmmm black isn't usually my thing, but I started thinking of some ideas and somehow a 1/2 lb ended up in my cart. I went with the button yellow orange as my current project, a combined cutting/sewing table made from doug fir, seems to want a stronger finish. Nice site and better than some of the prices I've run across though I have to pay tax too. I'd hope the food grade shellac is more refined than the stuff put on floors, didn't occur to me it would be water soluble though, oh well I just wear a respirator when dealing with the alcohol (I have very sensitive lungs  ). I might even dig out the old air compressor and try spraying it though the climate here is so dry you have to use a lot of retarder even in cool weather; not having to sand out brush strokes is appealing. Might try cloth as suggested above maybe it works better than a brush and I have some linen scraps. It's been like 20 years since I did any finishing with shellac so my skills, and equipment, are a bit rusty  .


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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

You can use flattener to reduce the shine, but I have to agree with sawdust about the plastic feel of polyu vs. shellac, but sometimes that's what you want, I have seen some nice modern furniture that I think went better with polyu than it would have with shellac so there's room for both IMHO.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Lostinwoods said:


> Hmmm black isn't usually my thing, but I started thinking of some ideas and somehow a 1/2 lb ended up in my cart. I went with the button yellow orange as my current project, a combined cutting/sewing table made from doug fir, seems to want a stronger finish. Nice site and better than some of the prices I've run across though I have to pay tax too. I'd hope the food grade shellac is more refined than the stuff put on floors, didn't occur to me it would be water soluble though, oh well I just wear a respirator when dealing with the alcohol (I have very sensitive lungs  ). I might even dig out the old air compressor and try spraying it though the climate here is so dry you have to use a lot of retarder even in cool weather; not having to sand out brush strokes is appealing. Might try cloth as suggested above maybe it works better than a brush and I have some linen scraps. It's been like 20 years since I did any finishing with shellac so my skills, and equipment, are a bit rusty  .


Whoa Lost!! button lacs are not what you want unless you plan on refining them yourself to rid it of wax ok? go back and change it to dewaxed orange if you still can unless you do plan on filtering the button.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Cman, we would use it on cabinets, built ins, natural or stained interior doors, etc. usually depended upon which contractor or client we were working for. SF bay area in the 80's had a lot of people who didn't want anything oil based used in their house.


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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

Oh yes, I'll run it though cloth to filter it, lots of good clean scrap cloth around here! My understanding is this will give me a harder finish, actually I thought the dewaxed needed filtering too, kinda like dying cloth you need to filter out the residue when you mix your own dyes. I haven't made the purchase yet so if I'm wrong let me know. I only used premixed before with about 5 minutes left on it's sell by date and little color choice.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Lostinwoods said:


> Oh yes, I'll run it though cloth to filter it, lots of good clean scrap cloth around here! My understanding is this will give me a harder finish, actually I thought the dewaxed needed filtering too, kinda like dying cloth you need to filter out the residue when you mix your own dyes. I haven't made the purchase yet so if I'm wrong let me know. I only used premixed before with about 5 minutes left on it's sell by date and little color choice.


Cloth will not do it you will need at least coffe filters and then only after it made and most of the wax has settled and even then it will still contain wax, do yourself a favor and by the dewaxed ok? thier is no filtering to speak of with dewwaxed but if so then just use a coffee filter if there is debee, waxy lacs are not hard!!


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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

Ok this is what the seller says:

'Seed' Lacs
Seedlac is harvested from the sticklac by crushing and sieving to remove organic materials. The sieved lac is washed to remove insect parts and other soluble material, leaving the product we know as seedlac. The "seed" refers to the seed like pellet shape of this basic natural resin material from which all shellac is made.
(Strain the liquid shellac through a paint filter or cheesecloth, to remove organic debris (proof this is an organic natural product). The natural seedlac color is influenced by the sap consumed by the lac bug & the season of harvest.

Button Shellacs
Buttonlac is a unique shellac product preferred by restorers and those looking for a very protective shellac finish. It is superb for French polishing due to its hardness. Button Shellacs are prepared by the hand made process of heating the seedlac in a cotton tube. The resin secretes through the pores of the cloth and the molten shellac is formed into buttons. The processing heat polymerizes the resin, resulting in a very tough & moisture resistant finishing material.
Button Shellac is preferred for finishing floors and interior woodwork.

Dewaxed Shellac is necessary if the shellac will be used as a primer/sealer, undercoater or transitional coating.
A Shellac seal coat (made with dewaxed shellac) may be topcoated by almost any other clear coating or with paint.
(always test materials for compatibility in you application.)

It sounds to me like the "button" is filtered and it's the "seed"lac that isn't and is naturally cheaper. So maybe it's just the terminology that's mixed up here?


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Lostinwoods said:


> Ok this is what the seller says:
> 
> 'Seed' Lacs
> Seedlac is harvested from the sticklac by crushing and sieving to remove organic materials. The sieved lac is washed to remove insect parts and other soluble material, leaving the product we know as seedlac. The "seed" refers to the seed like pellet shape of this basic natural resin material from which all shellac is made.
> ...


Everything they say is true, however in stating the seed-lac is filtered they are referring to the basic filtering to rid it of dross [bug parts/minute pieces of debris/ wood/ etc., but even then some still remains] It does not filter out the "wax".

With making button lacs, the process is carried one step further by putting the seedlac in to a long [20-30'] small tubed cloth bag and twisting the bag ,till the lac in the bag right in front of the fire heats up and squeezes out of the bag and is scooped/scraped off and dolloped onto a cool stone or other surface where it is both cooled and makers stamp applied into the normal button shape. Here again - no wax is removed.

With "dewaxed lacs" the wax is removed by chemical additions to the solved shellac to precipitate the wax [separate] to where it normally ranges about .2% which for all practical purpose, when used alone, is quite acceptable, though i personally remove all of it in further processing on my own when purchased, just as i do with button also for friction polishing. Though button lac is tough as stated, it is far from being ideal because of the wax [ a plasticizers of sorts] is still contained in the lac, with it gone, it has better water and alcohol resistance and that is/was the point i am trying to make. Not that button or other wax containing lacs don't have a good degree of these inherent properties, just that they are improved when the wax is removed for coating purposes.

(always test materials for compatibility in you application.)

This is a warning to not use wax containing lacs under certain coatings, poly, etc, because of adhesion to the lac, this would require a toatlly waxless shellac like zinnsers sealcoat. 



I will leave it up to you as what direction to go from here. 

Sincerely,

Chemmy


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## Lostinwoods (Mar 1, 2012)

I very much appreciate the time you've taken to help with my choice. My shellac won't go under anything but more shellac . Since the black only comes in button I might try 1/2lb of it and 1/2lb of orange dewaxed and compare how they work on my fir...as the lumber is still drying I have plenty of time. Thanks for the heads up I never like to totally rely on a seller's advice. 


Looking back I see they have 4 ounce sampler packs I think maybe Ill try three or four of those so I can compare color and finish might be cheaper in long run.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Lostinwoods said:


> I very much appreciate the time you've taken to help with my choice. My shellac won't go under anything but more shellac . Since the black only comes in button I might try 1/2lb of it and 1/2lb of orange dewaxed and compare how they work on my fir...as the lumber is still drying I have plenty of time. Thanks for the heads up I never like to totally rely on a seller's advice.
> 
> 
> Looking back I see they have 4 ounce sampler packs I think maybe Ill try three or four of those so I can compare color and finish might be cheaper in long run.


Very good choice on the samples Lost, have fun!!!!:yes:


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

Very nice of Chemmy to share info openly. We are lucky to have someone with such knowledge of the lac helping out.:thumbsup:

That sample pack sure looks yummy, one thing that can look very nice is to lay 4 coats (with a brush) of a 2 pound cut diluted 1 part shellac 20 parts alcohol, not as nice as the violin grounds but nice...

A darker color will enhance the grain more.

Than follow with the lightest color (perhaps) and as you are buiding coats switch to one a step darker and than another step darker and so on going through every color you have, than finish with the light stuff, that will give you lots of depth, and chatoyance, and a very nice dichromatic look that will change colors depending on the angle and light.....try it on a sample, I think you will like it.

I do it with pigments and orasol dyes, the pigments particles refract light and I like it, I grind them very finely.... I like the combination of layers of the transparent shellac colors and orasol dyes and the complexity of certain pigments.

A layer of shellack with Dioxazine Violet (my last color layer) enhances the depth a lot with very little darkening.

I buy mine from Kremer.

The waxed stuff you can de-wax it (for a shellac only finish) with two coffee filters (shellac shack instructions), it's slow but works, I angle them 90º.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> Very nice of Chemmy to share info openly. We are lucky to have someone with such knowledge of the lac helping out.:thumbsup:
> 
> That sample pack sure looks yummy, one thing that can look very nice is to lay 4 coats (with a brush) of a 2 pound cut diluted 1 part shellac 20 parts alcohol, not as nice as the violin grounds but nice...
> 
> ...


Carlo, have you tested the dioxazine violet for fade resistance? and what are your findings? and how did you test? I know Kremer sells high quality products but depending on the source, many have a low fade resistance, this also can vary dending on the media and or lighting conditions. 

*ASTM gives light fastness ratings for a red shade of Dioxazine as fair III and a blue shade as poor IV.
In tests on watercolor paints, Bruce MacEvoy gives this pigment a II when used in watercolor, with a wide variation between brands. It stands to reason that source, manufacturing process or impurities play a role in the light fastness of this pigment. Different mediums or binders may also give different results. I would suggest making your own tests on the formulation or brand you have.

"
an Atlas Suntest xenon-lamp fadeometer to test
printed samples. Ninety-six continuous hours of fadeometer testing is equal to roughly twenty-four
days of direct sunlight or nearly three months exposure at eight hours per day.This equipment is well​accepted as a standard in the industry for its accuracy in testing the fade of "

My findings with my dyes by the fadeometer, is after 128 hours the violets/purples, have a designation of SF [slight fading, more of the blue than red hue. this would equal visible color detection [by the colorist] of approxm. 4 months till visible fading can be readily detected, what are your findings dealing with test you may have made in direct sun for this length of time??


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

I did some research on the lightfastness of the dioxazine, and you are correct it can vary, some are very lightfast other not at all, Kremer's dioxazine is 8 on their measurements (maximum lightfastness- Hoechst method), stability in acids 5 (max) alkali 5 (max).. ..but thank you for mentioning I should have mentioned it but forgot.

http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=01030101&lang=ENG&product=23451

You've been reading handprint.com.....:thumbup:


Dioxazine violet PV37 is a lightfast, semitransparent, heavily staining, very dark valued, dull *violet* pigment.

And from Wet Canvas

Dioxazine Purple is a lightfast pigment and should last for at least 100 years depending on the medium. Pigments are the most lightfast in oil, then acrylics and the least in watercolors. However, even in watercolor PV23 holds up very well in lightfast tests, just stick to the reputable brands.

Many thanks for your concern!!!!!


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> I did some research on the lightfastness of the dioxazine, and you are correct it can vary, some are very lightfast other not at all, Kremer's dioxazine is 8 on their measurements (maximum lightfastness- Hoechst method), stability in acids 5 (max) alkali 5 (max), so I felt pretty safe....but thank you for mentioning I should have mentioned it but forgot.
> 
> http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=01030101&lang=ENG&product=23451
> 
> ...


OK my friend, i added to my post above, have you done your own testing?


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

No, have not done my own testing, neither can wait 4 months..... I trust Kremer, being a bavarian company, and having lived there and knowing how serious they are about these issues., I feel pretty safe, at some point I have to trust some company out there, so Kremer is the one. Have not heard bad things about them yet.

On the other hand, I appreciate you pushing me to test everything, I've learned a lot, and my future work will benefit.

As far as now all the pigments I bought from Kremer are lightfastness 8, they all "seem" to be stable, but I am not a chemist, and my microscope is a 35mm lens backwards (I am also a primate of the microscope) and my memory regarding colors I don't know if I can trust, my photography skills are even worst....:laughing:

Thanks again my friend.


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> No, have not done my own testing, neither can wait 4 months..... I trust Kremer, being a bavarian company, and having lived there and knowing how serious they are about these issues., I feel pretty safe, at some point I have to trust some company out there, so Kremer is the one. Have not heard bad things about them yet.
> 
> On the other hand, I appreciate you pushing me to test everything, I've learned a lot, and my future work will benefit.
> 
> ...


8 on the scale is very good, should not be a problem, even some of my dyes are only 6-7. but then again i add HALS and UVA's, lol:yes:


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## Carlo Bartolini (Aug 30, 2011)

chemmy said:


> 8 on the scale is very good, should not be a problem, even some of my dyes are only 6-7. but then again i add HALS and UVA's, lol:yes:


The only Hals I can get down here is Halls Mentho-lyptus, and UVA in the local language (portuguese) means "grape", I could try both but than I'll be afraid the shellac bugs will come back for their lac....:laughing:

cheers


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## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Carlo Bartolini said:


> The only Hals I can get down here is Halls Mentho-lyptus, and UVA in the local language (portuguese) means "grape", I could try both but than I'll be afraid the shellac bugs will come back for their lac....:laughing:
> 
> cheers


HMMM......... Mentholated lac with unfermented wine??? Don't give my ideas Carlo!! lol


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