# Hand planing end grain



## msbeal

I'm new to hand tools and have been playing around with my new Veritas low angle jack plane. 

After considerable research I think I've got the sharpening part more or less correct, minus the always needed practice. 

However, here's my problem & question. The plane is sailing through long grain edges just fine, nice smooth shavings. 

It's when I get to trying end grain (soft wood like Alder) planing. It just sort of hangs in the middle of the stroke or skips across the end with what I imagine could be called chatter. 

I've got the blade height as low as I could possibly make it. The mouth closed in as I've read about. No where's near what you'd call a nice smooth cut on the end grain. 

What could I possibly be doing wrong? I even made a shooting board which helps a bit but I don't think I'm doing it right. Is it possible my A1 steel, top of the line Veritas blade dulls faster than I think?

I don't have a spiffy vise to hold my wood well enough to try skewing my stroke and the shooting jig certainly doesn't allow me to do that. 

Any tips or suggestions?


----------



## Steve Neul

Personally I would give up hand planing end grain. It can be done but the blade has to be sharp beyond imagination. Then if you do get the plane sharp enough planing end grain will dull the blade faster than edge planing. Sanding would be less work.


----------



## Dave Paine

+1 with Steve. I would avoid planing end grain if possible.

You have a good plane, and a good blade. I think A2 steel.

Planing end grain is difficult. It requires very sharp blade and a skewed angle.

I was also playing around like you. In my case with a section of flame box elder. Not a hard wood, but the section was all end grain. I tried my Veritas Low Angle smoother, and has the same "experience" as you. I tried a Stanley #4 and it did not fare any better. I ended up using a belt sander. I was merely trying to clear off the dirt and cut marks to take a look at the grain.

As Steve mentioned the sharper edge does not last as long, so it will dull faster.

I would use my table saw if possible, otherwise I would sand.


----------



## Wrangler02

I just bought a Veritas low angle block and have had no problems with planing end grain. I usually work with white oak, and the plane works very well to chamfer the ends of through tenons, and to clean up the end. 

A couple of hints from what I have learned: your iron maybe needs more work to get it sharper. Rub the sole of the plane with candle wax; the lub provided will help eliminate chatter. Put a bit more pressure on the toe of the plane when you start the cut; this helps to get a good "bite" when you start the pass. Last make sure that the work piece is solidly supported. Holding the piece solid is the key to any hand tool operation. 

Don't give up!! I find that I get much crisper edges with a plane than when I try smoothing with a sander.


----------



## firemedic

Low angle planes are the best choice for planing end grain... which btw is not taboo and gives a much more accurate result and much cleaner finish than sanding or cross cutting with a table saw. 

What angle iron did you get with the plane? The angle of the bevel effects the combined angle of contact.

Also, you will find that making passes from each end to just past the center a bit easier if the piece in in a vice and that keeps the edge from blowing out. A shooting board is the easiest method to go about doing it though. Shooting boards do take a bit of practice.

I suspect your problem is in the irons bevel angle. So let's start there. Which have you got?

EDIT: 
I didn't see wrangler's post initially. I'd have to say +1 on the wax and improved sharpening technique.

Still interested in the iron though.


----------



## HandToolGuy

Wrangler said:


> I just bought a Veritas low angle block and have had no problems with planing end grain. I usually work with white oak, and the plane works very well to chamfer the ends of through tenons, and to clean up the end.
> 
> A couple of hints from what I have learned: your iron maybe needs more work to get it sharper. Rub the sole of the plane with candle wax; the lub provided will help eliminate chatter. Put a bit more pressure on the toe of the plane when you start the cut; this helps to get a good "bite" when you start the pass. Last make sure that the work piece is solidly supported. Holding the piece solid is the key to any hand tool operation.
> 
> Don't give up!! I find that I get much crisper edges with a plane than when I try smoothing with a sander.


I have a Veritas bevel up plane and I love it. I also have several good block planes. I might end up using one of the block planes, but I always try the Veritas first. Wrangler's advice on how to do the job is first rate.

EDIT: don't know what I was thinking: I am sure that Veritas makes a wonderful bevel up jack plane, but my plane is a Lie Nielson.


----------



## msbeal

To Firemedic: I think the main bevel is 25 degrees and with the secondary bevel it's up to maybe 28. (These blades are bevel up planes.) I really don't know what the frog adds to that angle. 

Tonight I was watching a training video from Frank Klausz, Hand Tools, Tuning and using Chisels, Planes and Saws. He had a great tip. He only plows through half the board on end grain, turns his plane around and then planes from the other end towards him on a pull stroke. This prevents any tear out. I'll definitely have to try that. 

Also, his actions on end grain didn't seem much smoother than what I was getting so maybe this is normal and you just grunt through it. You just get these fine particles, almost like sanding. 

I also read somewhere that soft woods are actually the hardest to end plane. Hard woods being easier.


----------



## Dave Paine

msbeal said:


> To Firemedic: I think the main bevel is 25 degrees and with the secondary bevel it's up to maybe 28. (These blades are bevel up planes.) I really don't know what the frog adds to that angle.


The Veritas bevel up planes have a 12 deg bed angle.


----------



## firemedic

Yeah it 's a 12 bed angle on the frog. 

And you have the 28 deg iron so you should be in good shape. Soft woods end grain can be a bit more difficult to plane because the fibers are more likely to crush as opposed to slicing cleanly. 

So at this point, we've ruled out a few things and I think we should concentrate on honing the iron and waxing the sole to reduce friction.

What is your sharpening method?


----------



## HandToolGuy

I was cleaning up some end grain cuts this afternoon and this thread popped into my head. Maybe I missed it, but did anyone mention technique or have we just discussed sharpening?

I ask this question because technique is critical with end grain. If you are having trouble shoving the plane across the board straight on, then the technique is to angle the plane but push it straight so that the plane iron is slicing through the wood fibers at an angle. The other trick is to wrap your lead hand around the front of the plane and use your knuckles against the board to support the plane and keep it straight.

I also took a picture of a freshly sawed end beside one that has been planed. This is just my first whack at it and not the final finish; I am squaring up the board before cutting tenons in it, but this will give something to compare with the results you are getting.

One last note: earlier I said that my plane was from Veritas. Nope, this one is a Lie Nielson.


----------



## woodnthings

*when my plane chatters...*

I pull it towards me, Japanese stye. It's much easier to control on the pull stroke ... JMO. I also skew it a bit and use my fingers wrapped around it for more control as a guide.

I have a Stanley 60 1/2 low angle block plane. Nothing as facny as the ones you guys have, but it works. I would like to get one of those bevel up types.

Anyone got a recommendation? L N or Veritas? :blink:


----------



## HandToolGuy

woodnthings said:


> I have a Stanley 60 1/2 low angle block plane. Nothing as facny as the ones you guys have, but it works. I would like to get one of those bevel up types.
> 
> Anyone got a recommendation? L N or Veritas? :blink:


As I said, I have the LN, but the reviews I have seen rate the Veritas just as highly. I think that you would be delighted to get either one this Christmas. 

Either one is pretty spendy, but with either company, once you own the tool, you don't miss the $$.


----------



## Wrangler02

woodnthings said:


> I pull it towards me, Japanese stye. It's much easier to control on the pull stroke ... JMO. I also skew it a bit and use my fingers wrapped around it for more control as a guide.
> 
> I have a Stanley 60 1/2 low angle block plane. Nothing as facny as the ones you guys have, but it works. I would like to get one of those bevel up types.
> 
> Anyone got a recommendation? L N or Veritas? :blink:


I also have a 60 1/2 Stanley; a 1970's vintage. I could never properly adjust the depth and discovered that the threads in the body were stripped. When I discovered that the Veritas low angle block plane could be purchased with tote and knob, I jumped on it. It feels much better in old arthritic hands than a standard block plane.


----------



## ACP

Do NOT give up on end grain plaining! Once you get the hang of it you'll find the results to be awesome. You know you have got it when it slices off in one clean swipe and you can see the end grain shaving. Also the end grain on the board will look....wet almost. You'll know it when you see it. It's very clean. 

Other techniques for the end grain....back up the board if you are worried about blow out. Another option is to put a very small chamfer on the end where you expect blowout. This wll help prevent that from happening.


----------



## Hammer1

28 degrees is getting a bit too blunt for end grain work, it will push harder. I like my low angle bevel up planes with a 22 degree bevel. I don't like a tight mouth for this work and set the blade for a whisper cut. You can visually see if an edge is sharp by looking straight on the edge with a light overhead, there should be no reflection of light. Another method used by straight razor aficionados is to place the edge on your fingernail and try to move it in a scraping like action. A sharp blade won't move. Most times, I'm using low angle planes for minor fitting, often one or two strokes. You can see a cut in this picture on a miter. I only needed a kiss off the bottom 3/4s of the cut.


----------



## HandToolGuy

Hammer1 said:


> Most times, I'm using low angle planes for minor fitting, often one or two strokes. You can see a cut in this picture on a miter. I only needed a kiss off the bottom 3/4s of the cut.


Now that's what we're talking about! Nice pics.


----------



## timetestedtools

You've been given some good advice above. A tight mouth is meant to keep the depth from increasing, which is not of an issue with end grain.

I have the LN, but I've done a lot with low angle blocks. Even a good sharp #18 (not low angle) will perform decent.

Don't give up, try different angles of skew. And I believe it was Schwartz that said "sharp fixes everything"


----------



## msbeal

Thanks everyone. I have read and studied everyone's response. 

My problem is trying stuff out that I've never seen done before (end grain planing). Unfortunately they no longer have wood shop in the adult education at the high school like they used to so I've begun exploring DVDs. 

As I mentioned upon seeing that Frank Klausz DVD, I guess I wasn't that far from what should be expected. Even Krausz finishes his end grain planing with a couple of swipes with the sandpaper. Today I plan on resharpening my plane blade and give another whack at it for practice. 

Firemedic asked about my sharpening methods. I've read a couple of books on sharpening shop tools and that's also covered in the Klausz dvd. So far I've got the Worksharp 3000 and the Veritas angle guide and stone starter kit. I don't have a stone flattening system set up yet. 

To be truthful I was a little spooked waylaying into my new veritas plane blade because they're $39.00 a pop and they claim they're all set to go out of the box. I just worked the secondary bevel a bit on the stone. I will be trying to accumulate what I need to reflatten my stone. From the factory the stone looked pretty darn flat. 

My latest working theory is that it doesn't really matter what the factory does (or says) because when you go to re-sharpen any blade you're going have to bring the blade into the specs of whatever system you're using. 25 degrees in my garage might be a tad off from the 25 degrees in Veritas' factory, if you get my drift.  

The books I've read had me scratching my head to find that piece of flat glass to sand my stones flat by but then I saw the Klausz DVD and he showed how his prior glass stone flatteners were not flat so he has begun using a big square of melamine which he finds perfectly flat. He tapes his wet/dry 400 sandpaper on the melamine, sprays it with WD40 and gives his stones a few rubs, checks and rechecks the surface of his stones and voila, flat. It sure looked cool and a piece of melamine is certainly doable. 

Conclusion: I will revisit the sharpness of my blade, wax the plane, open the mouth a bit, try the halfway stroke on the board and then flip it over to come towards the middle from the other end on the new shooting board I just made. 

Thanks one and all, you guys are great.


----------



## HandToolGuy

Wait a minute! What were we thinking?

1. A Veritas iron SHOULD come out of the box with it's back flat and an edge sharp enough to at least start working.

2. IF you are just starting out and you are learning, what might you learn from trying to sharpen an iron that should already be pretty sharp? Probably nothing, but you could screw up the bevel and condemn yourself to hours of work to get it right again while your brand new plane just sits there and gathers rust.

3. Go out, spend a few bucks, buy a couple of rusty old Stanley planes (and a fistful of raggedy chisels while you are at it) and practice, practice, practice. Read back through the very good advice you have gotten here, watch the videos and try different things to find out what works for you. At the end of the day you will have some great tools that you can be proud of and you will have eliminated the fear and stress.

But don't lay that Veritas iron on sandpaper until you are confident that you know what you are doing. 

And lastly, have fun!


----------



## ACP

Where are you locate (city or state)? Maybe you are close to someone that can help you from here.


----------



## timetestedtools

I agree with what HandToolguy said, except I'd need to say


> A Veritas iron SHOULD come out of the box with it's back flat


 isn't always the case. I haven't bought a lot of *new *planes, and my LN was REAL close, but it still needed touching up.

I strongly agree with the


> spend a few bucks, buy a couple of rusty old Stanley planes


. Its the best way to learn how they work, is to tune and rehab.


----------



## msbeal

Thanks ACP. I tried to find a class and I know no one who is into woodworking. 

I live in very rural area north of San Francisco.


----------



## woodnthings

*can you get You Tube?*

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear....155.1309.15j1.16.0...0.0...1ac.1.7IogHGTmg7Q


----------

