# Hand Saws



## Lockes Woodshop (Oct 25, 2011)

Let me give the forum another shot here. I want to talk about hand saws. I have a rip, crosscut and tenon saw. Is there any others thats recommended to make things easier. No specific projects are in mind. I have a rough time sleeping and like to spend the restless nights in the shop, and would love to accomplish more without waking the wife and kids up. Any thoughts?

If you are going to post "google it" please dont bother. Ive posted several questions to this forum and got that response. If everyone "googled it" then there would be no use for these types of sights.


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## tcleve4911 (Dec 16, 2006)

I use my Japanese pull saw a lot.
Not the box store ones, but a nice one from Tajima.










I also keep handy:
Coping saws.
Fret saws.
Keyhole saws.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Hole saw, chain saw, hack saw.:shifty:


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

What do you mean by "tenon saw"? Just one? Same for that pesky little "a" before rip and crosscut - what's the deal there? Singular isn't going to cut it.

You need a few more of the regular stuff, but with different tpi for different thickness woods. You don't want to be hacking away at a 1/2" board with a 3tpi crosscut, and you don't want to try and cut a 4x4 oak with a 12tpi. I don't do a lot of ripping of long boards, but for the handworkers who do it, the same rule of tpi applies. 

Do you have a decent miter box and miter saw to go with it? A medium sized one is fine but if you can find one of those giant Millers Falls with the 30" saw they are awesome. Angled cuts are easier and more precise than your tablesaw with none of the setup time.

My favorite little saw in my shop is my grandfather's 68. Here's a pic of one on the Disstonian: http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/dvtl.html

It sits in a small wooden miter box he made and I use it to cut just a smidgen off the end of pieces up to about 1" wide. It's a very precise tool and as the name implies can also be used for dovetails.

But my hand doesn't get used to the straight handle so for real dovetails I use a new LN dovetail saw with a traditional handle like on the right in the link above. 

I've got one of those two sided japanese saws that is very flexible. I never use it in the shop but it's come in handy cutting things in the house - like the bottom of door frame trim when installing tile. 

There are long thin saws with many tpi that are used for cutting wood with small nails. Mine were made by Atkins, others made them too.

If you want to do veneer work then you'll need a veneer saw - small with a curved edge. It's not something I've done yet, but I have a dresser needing refinished so that will be in a future project. 

If they're sharp, they're fun. If they're not, they suck. In any case they're like those potato chips - can't eat just one. Here's a shot of some of my saws.

That blob in the middle bottom of the pic is also a pile of saws sitting on a stool - at the time of the pic I hadn't decided if they were going to stay saws or become scrapers. 
If you're going to buy just two then I'd say miter and dovetail.


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## toasterburn (Jan 3, 2012)

Doing better then me. My hand saw collection consists of a $15 stanely and a craftsman hack saw. Of course, my workshop is still under construction.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

Haven't seen a flush cut saw recommended yet. Good to have handy.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I defer to Joe's obvious expertise and passion. I think there's several saws to own depending on what you plan to do. For joinery you should probably have a rip and crosscut tenon or carcass and a nice rip dovetail. Rough crosscuts or rips you'll need a panel saw in the appropriate grind. Curves you'll need a fret, or bowsaw. Flush trimming is the flush saw. A japanese saw if you prefer the pull a western if your prefer the push. I am trying to get myself set with some basic saws. I have a rip and crosscut panel, a tenon in crosscut, a dovetail, and several cheap crosscut saws for an old Craftsman miterbox. I also have two Japanese saws for when those come in handy, which is often. Good luck.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

ACP said:


> I defer to Joe's obvious expertise and passion. I think there's several saws to own depending on what you plan to do. For joinery you should probably have a rip and crosscut tenon or carcass and a nice rip dovetail. Rough crosscuts or rips you'll need a panel saw in the appropriate grind. Curves you'll need a fret, or bowsaw. Flush trimming is the flush saw. A japanese saw if you prefer the pull a western if your prefer the push. I am trying to get myself set with some basic saws. I have a rip and crosscut panel, a tenon in crosscut, a dovetail, and several cheap crosscut saws for an old Craftsman miterbox. I also have two Japanese saws for when those come in handy, which is often. Good luck.


+1. :yes: And also agree with Joe. I have fret saws, but I also suggest coping saws, which work better for me installing moulding. Might as well get a keyhole saw...you never know. I've found a lot of use for an offset dovetail saw, like this.










 







.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

ACP said:


> I defer to Joe's obvious expertise and passion.


You say passion, the court-appointed shrink says manic obscession. Tomayto, Tomahto. Expertise? Not a chance.:smile:
I forgot all about those fret and scroll saws - good catch. I like the adjustable jewelers fret saws with the super fine blade. For some reason the regular coping saws just give me fits - but you need one or the other to properly install trim and baseboards. I wish I hadn't seen that link to the offset dovetail saw. I've picked up too many new toys this month and my wallet is feeling pretty thin.

I've got a small pile of bowsaw blades but have never sat down to make a bowsaw. I've got an antique one but the blade is like 3" to one tooth (1/3TPI ?) because it's for cutting timber. I know a lot of hand-tool users like to use bowsaws for just about every cut possible so building one is on my "to-do" list.


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## HandToolGuy (Dec 10, 2011)

And, of course, when you have all those saws (and I feel like Joe is on the right track here in that you need lots), you will need to accessorize. Build a saw bench. Buy some files and saw sets and learn to keep those puppies sharp. Oh! And you will need to build a saw till like Joe has because that is the ONLY way to store your saws so they don't get banged up and bent. 

Is it really worth all that? You bet it is. Like bench planes, well cared for old handsaws allow us to connect with the craftsmen who went before us in ways that a table saw never will. Besides, once you learn good technique, your cuts will be straighter and your edges truer. I have a table saw and I actually plug it in and use it when I have no other choice, but a good old handsaw and a pair of saw benches are always my first choice.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

Well it looks like Joe is king of this hand tool section judging by his workshop. ( It is yours, isn't Joe. ) :yes:

I like making as many hand tools as I can. Once I have made one I move onto something else. I also like to refurbish old junk tools and try to restore them to their former glory. Again, it is no big deal and i do not go overboard like a lot of collectors.

With regard to the handsaws I have restored quite a few. I have also made a Dovetail Saw.

The Dovetail saw was a special project and a great learning curve for me. I and a few friends purchased some rolled steel from Wenzloff and Sons in the States. www.wenzloffandsons.com We also bought from him the 7/16, 1/2 and 9/16th brass saw nuts.

The brass back we purchased in a large order and one of the guys did the slitting for us. You can do it yourself on a drill press. The handlle I made was roughed out on a bandsaw and the shaped using a Nicholson 49 rasp. 

Their are pleanty of templates on the web but the one I respect is by a guy called Ray Gardner and his web site www.backsaw.net

I did not bother to cut the teeth myself I got a professional saw sharpening business to do that. it cost me just $20 for a professional job.

That little saw sits in my tool box with a blade protector on it. When people see it in there getting clanged around by other tools they say i should protect it and not have it there.

My answer is , if it gets damaged I will just make another.

Pete


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

That is the disaster zone I call my workshop but I know there are bigger, better utilized shops out there. The saw till was a fun make, but I need to build another one, a bigger one, or get rid of a lot of saws. 

Ray has a great site - I've searched his database of saw makers a few times and he really has put a lot of effort into it. I have the IT saw he's got on his front page right now, one of just a few "new" hand tools I've ever bought, but I really like the closed handles on the Wenzloff site better. Making your own dovetail saw sounds awesome. I didn't realize there were still places out there that would stamp teeth. We've got a few hardware stores that still sharpen, but I doubt they'd be able to retooth without destroying the saw. Pics would be cool, maybe a tutorial on how to build a saw from scratch?


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

joesbucketorust said:


> That is the disaster zone I call my workshop but I know there are bigger, better utilized shops out there. The saw till was a fun make, but I need to build another one, a bigger one, or get rid of a lot of saws.
> 
> Ray has a great site - I've searched his database of saw makers a few times and he really has put a lot of effort into it. I have the IT saw he's got on his front page right now, one of just a few "new" hand tools I've ever bought, but I really like the closed handles on the Wenzloff site better. Making your own dovetail saw sounds awesome. I didn't realize there were still places out there that would stamp teeth. We've got a few hardware stores that still sharpen, but I doubt they'd be able to retooth without destroying the saw. Pics would be cool, maybe a tutorial on how to build a saw from scratch?


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Joe, I am unsure of what you have available in the States but i am sure you have. The hardware store is not the place i would be looking at. I am sure that you would have professional Saw Sharpening companies. You would have to to satisfy all the cabinetmakers, builders carpenters. All the sawmillers need someone to sharpen their large circular saws and retip the teeth when they get damaged. 

Heck, we have two places here, one about ten miles away and the other Fifty. I had to talk the close one into it when they said they could not do it. isaid, why peacock's their opposition can, which they could because my friends go there, he said well, if they can i guess so can we.

As far as doing a tutorial, I do not think I am the one, but Ray has a great one on his site. infact ray was the one who organised all the saw steel, brass nuts and brass back for us about three years ago.

It took about twelve months to organize but none of us cared about the wait.

Instead of saw steel, some even used Floor Scraper Steel blades from our Big Box store. On of my contects did a Rockwell hardness test on one and from memory I think it came up about 59 which is right in the middle of the range that is recommended.

The Big Box store had a run on them, I bought one too, but haven't used it yet.

Pete


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

Joe.

With regard to the closed handles of the dovetail saw, ray has quite a few listed on his template page which is indexed on the right hand side of his front page.

Pete


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

There are a few hand/old-tool fanatics who will sharpen for a price but I'm far away from all of them and would have to mail the saws off, which I did a few years ago on some of my grandfathers tenon saws. I've got a foley filer, but it's missing a pair of gauges and the learning curve is steep because it was way out of adjustment when I got it. So I do most of it by hand and I've got a small pile that need retoothing completely and they are saved for the day I get another machine. 

Unfortunately we don't have sawmills in southern AZ, that would require trees. :huh: Now if they ever find an industrial use for tons of mesquite bush and cholla cactus, I could open my own factory. Eons ago the local hardware stores were the ones with the Foley filers and the retoothers and you could take your handsaw or your circular saw to them to get it sharpened while you shopped for nuts/bolts. But most of them no longer offer sharpening services, and the ones that do have upgraded to the Foley-Belsaw that does carbide circular saw blades, scissors, knives and everything but handsaws. Occasionally you'll get lucky and find one that does bandsaw blades. I suppose it's different in the big cities or even in a rural community up where they have lumber.


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## lawrence (Nov 14, 2009)

this is one great post....thanx to everyone who has contributed


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

Not knowing your particular area, trees or no trees, but I find it hard to believe that you do not have a dedicated Saw and blade supplier who also have a fatory to repair blades.

Heck, I live in the tourist capital of Australia but six miles inland in the hinterland and on acreage. We have large developments going on here and the building industry is a big part of the economy.

Now these companies use expensive concrete cutting machines, we have metal fabricators here, they need expensive saws, we have timber suppliers here who buy in rough sawn timber to supply the building industry, they need industrial machines that have the blades repaired. 

Do not just think timber, most of the work these specialst saw blade companies do is for work outside the timber indudtry but they have the equipment to do it all.

Ok. you might have to send one away. that is what I was going to do. But sometimes the delivery cost is cheaper then the gas bill to get there. The reason I am saying all this is because i expect their are others here looking in and i hope they find some interest in the information here.

I will have a look on the web to see if you actually do have similar companies here. You surely have not gone completly offshore and only use Chinese junk.

Pete


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

Ok. Quickly found this professional saw Sharpening service. www.dynamicsaw.com

Sure, it is not in your neck of the woods Joe but it looks similar to the ones we have here.

So, I think their might be someone closer to you. The prices seem to compare with ours too, so i think i am on the right track. it will be a good starting point as i am sure , if they cannot do it they can point you in the right direction.

Regards

pete


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

Yea, those companies don't do handsaws. Companies like that used to, and hardware stores used to have that equipment (Belsaw sharpener - that one is equipped for carbide tools) 20 years ago in the Monterey CA area I found one store, I believe it was in Salinas, that still did handsaws or at least they had the correct equipment. There is sharpening place in our small town here, he doesn't. He has the same equipment as this big company in Buffalo though. Those prices you see are for circular saws. If you want to send a handsaw to be sharpened then you have to find an old-timer still doing it by hand, someone with a foley filer in their basement that they bought when all the hardware stores stopped using them (not mine, I'd butcher your saw in two minutes - still haven't learned how to use it correctly) or send them to a few select people who used to do them by hand, got the bug and went big-time. Like these people: http://badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-restoration-services.html

The work is real good, but those prices don't include postage both ways, so it's not like you can just bundle up 5-6 saws and send them off to be sharpened. There are others on the website, I just remember this one from when it was an individual and not a company. If you lurk around some of the hand-tool forums you will find who is recommended and might get lucky enough to have one within driving distance. 

The other option is to learn to do it by hand - buy a clamp or make one, sawsets are cheap, some triangular files, a flat-file for jointing first, and a few cheap throways to practice on. If you have the eye-hand coordination you can pick it up quickly. If you're rather uncoordinated like me you can buy an old filer since there are so many floating around on the used market, and learn to use them and with a bit of practice you can get some decent results.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Do you have a locally owned hardware store? One of our local shops here has a deal with a guy who does sharpening for handsaws -- I paid about $25 to get one of my father's old Craftsman Kromedge saws done over the summer.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

If I can remember a few years back on this site their was somebody here who did his own logging. I am sure he used to sharpen for the public if requested.

I can't remember his name , but he could even be a mod here now. Without checking which i will after i post this i think he had Rambo as his Avatar. It could be texas Sawmiller or something like that. i think his name was Darren.

If it was him I am sure he would be on top of who could do it. It would be good info for the rest of the forum.

Pete


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

STAR said:


> If I can remember a few years back on this site their was somebody here who did his own logging. I am sure he used to sharpen for the public if requested.
> 
> I can't remember his name , but he could even be a mod here now. Without checking which i will after i post this i think he had Rambo as his Avatar. It could be texas Sawmiller or something like that. i think his name was Darren.
> 
> ...


Agreed - I'm sure there are some skilled sharpeners out there willing to do the work, it would be nice to have a list to choose from.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> Do you have a locally owned hardware store? One of our local shops here has a deal with a guy who does sharpening for handsaws -- I paid about $25 to get one of my father's old Craftsman Kromedge saws done over the summer.


When I first moved out to this half-horse town I heard rumors of such a man, but the local ACE doesn't do saws. I did run into someone at a garage sale last year who had a foley for sale, not the one for saws but the one that sharpens everything else that's not carbide, and he mentioned he worked at a store somewhere in town "back in the day". They're out there, it's just not the type of thing they advertise in the paper anymore so it's really word of mouth. I'm happy putzing along with my foley filer and someday I'll get it adjusted just right and it will all click and then that will be one more pile of tools finished rehabbing.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

joesbucketorust said:


> When I first moved out to this half-horse town I heard rumors of such a man,


 
--------------

I like your reply. :laughing:


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## Lockes Woodshop (Oct 25, 2011)

lawrence said:


> this is one great post....thanx to everyone who has contributed


I couldnt agree more. Very much info that i had no clue about.


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## Lockes Woodshop (Oct 25, 2011)

Wow, what an overwhelming (but pleasent) response. And im really glad google was never mentioned lol. An earlier post by joe asking only 1 saw, i have several sizes of the rip, cross and tenon. I was looking more for other types of saws i may be missing, but it looks like close to all have been mentioned. A big question now. Im going to woodcraft monday. I am planning on adding to my saw collection. Which ones should i bring home and get the most use from right away? Also i know some have mentioned sharpening systems for the saw but what is a good kind to get


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't know what you should buy right now, depends more on what you're doing. If you want to do any inlay then get their adjustable jewelers fret saw, otherwise I'd be looking at a dovetail saw to compliment your tenon saw.

For sharpening - no need to run out and buy anything new. The best vises are handmade wooden ones. You can make them as long as the saw. All the metal ones I've ever had were too short and you had to keep moving the saw. Other than a clamp - plans for those are all over online - all you need is a sawset (cheaper than dirt on fleabay but stanley #42 is a good design) for setting the teeth when you're done, and then it's just two files - a fine regular flat one you've probably already got laying around, and a small triangular one which you can pick up at your local hardware store for cheap. That's if you want to do it by hand and are willing to sacrafice a beater saw or two learning the ropes. If you end up with something that looks like a dyslexic monkey going through crack withdrawal did a # on the saw, then your only other option for DIY is to find a used saw filer like the foleys with all the bells and whistels and carrier bars and gauges and it's not a pretty ride down that slope.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

If you want to drop the money, Lie-Nielson has some beautiful saws and they will resharpen them for $15 including return shipping.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

sawdustfactory said:


> If you want to drop the money, Lie-Nielson has some beautiful saws and they will resharpen them for $15 including return shipping.


Or you could just make your own. One thing I have learnt when starting is not to buy until you actually need something. wait till you have a project to do, work out how you are going to do it and then decide what tools are needed.

Trying to purchase in advance might leave you with a shed full of Sparkle but never or hardly used.

Pete


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## Lockes Woodshop (Oct 25, 2011)

joesbucketorust said:


> I don't know what you should buy right now, depends more on what you're doing. If you want to do any inlay then get their adjustable jewelers fret saw, otherwise I'd be looking at a dovetail saw to compliment your tenon saw.
> 
> For sharpening - no need to run out and buy anything new. The best vises are handmade wooden ones. You can make them as long as the saw. All the metal ones I've ever had were too short and you had to keep moving the saw. Other than a clamp - plans for those are all over online - all you need is a sawset (cheaper than dirt on fleabay but stanley #42 is a good design) for setting the teeth when you're done, and then it's just two files - a fine regular flat one you've probably already got laying around, and a small triangular one which you can pick up at your local hardware store for cheap. That's if you want to do it by hand and are willing to sacrafice a beater saw or two learning the ropes. If you end up with something that looks like a dyslexic monkey going through crack withdrawal did a # on the saw, then your only other option for DIY is to find a used saw filer like the foleys with all the bells and whistels and carrier bars and gauges and it's not a pretty ride down that slope.


Thanks for the tip. I finally get a day off tomorrow so i may spend some time making one. I have a "beater" saw or rather a few to practice on. Fortunately for me i work in a place i can get close to any file made and drill bits and other things of that nature. Were a 1 use shop and throw away and i dont see a need to waste. Im really leaning towards box making. I really need to work on my dovetails though. This has been a good topic, alot of people having awesome ideas.


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## HandToolGuy (Dec 10, 2011)

Lockes Woodshop said:


> Wow, what an overwhelming (but pleasent) response. And im really glad google was never mentioned lol.


But Google WAS mentioned twice: bayou.


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## Lockes Woodshop (Oct 25, 2011)

HandToolGuy said:


> But Google WAS mentioned twice: bayou.


Lol, you are right. If im gonna treat it as a "dirty word" then i need to stop using it too. LOL


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## cellophane (Oct 6, 2009)

STAR said:


> If I can remember a few years back on this site their was somebody here who did his own logging. I am sure he used to sharpen for the public if requested.
> 
> Without checking which i will after i post this i think he had Rambo as his Avatar. It could be texas Sawmiller or something like that. i think his name was Darren.


Daren is the guy.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/daren-11/

The info I posted earlier in the thread came from him.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

cellophane said:


> Daren is the guy.
> 
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/daren-11/
> 
> ...


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