# Water Based Pre Stain Conditioner



## CtotheT (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi! I'm based in the UK and we can't get the Minwax Pre Stain for water based stains. Any recipes I could make to help out with blotches on Birch?

Thanks!


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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

Not water based but you can make a conditioner by mixing one part shellac with five parts denatured alcohol.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The shellac method Gene mentioned is an option. It would be best to use a dewaxed shellac. The ratio of alcohol my be adjusted for the species. 

Just a warning about conditioners. They all will seal a certain amount. Too much of a sealing will impair the absorption and coloring of stains. You might first try a gel stain. 

Old home mixes can be very simple. A mix of a clear varnish to 2-3 parts of mineral spirits, can also work. Experiment on samples with the stain you intend to use.


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Like Cabinetman says, all "conditioners" will seal up the pores somewhat. Depending on what species of wood and how much (and type of) conditioner you use will go a long way to determining the final outcome. Like Gene, I like using dewaxed shellac cut with denatured alcohol as a sipt or wash coat (or conditioner if you will) on wood that is problematic. The wood species, will determine what cut (or the percentage of DWS and the alcohol) and the number of coats I use of the conditioner.

If you are going to stain a wood that is prone to being very "splotchy" (where the stain is very un-even and spotty), you might try using a dye stain rather than a penetrating pigmented stain. In a penetrating pigmented stain (either an oil OR water based), the tiny pigments of color are grabbed and held by the open pores in the wood as the oil or water soaks (or penetrates) into the wood. The harder portions (or more closed pores) of the wood will not grab nearly as much pigment. So the up side of a penetrating stain is it will highlight the grain and really make it pop. The down side is it will also accentuate other parts or areas of an uneven open pored wood (like Pine, Poplar, Birch) causing splotches of darker stain.

A gel stain is normally a pigmented stain as well, but its not a penetrating stain. The pigment penetrates a little, but not nearly as much as in an oil or water based penetrating stain. The pigment tends to stay on the surface and is spread around by how you apply the stain. The up side to a gel stain is you get very uniform coverage. The down side is you will usually obscure the figure and grain of the wood substantially.

A dye stain is another option. A dye stain tends to color the wood more evenly than a penetrating stain. However, like a gel stain above, it does tend to obscure the grain a little bit (although, not nearly as much as a gel stain IMHO). But, you get a much more uniform amount of coverage. Dye stains are what's used more often than not on professionally made cabinets and furniture. Dye stains are typically used only with spray equipment and thus normally reserved for the pro or certainly, the more experienced woodworker. They aren't nearly as easy to use as a penetrating oil or gel. With that being said, you can use dyes very easily as a "toner." For example, many times after staining (if I am using a particularly troublesome wood like Pine, Poplar or Birch), I will use a bit of dye in my sanding sealer or first coat of finish. Even with applying several wash coats of dewaxed shellac/alcohol, I may still end up with some splotchy-ness (is that a word?) that I would like to cover up or hide a little bit. In that case I just add a bit of Transtint dye to my sanding sealer (if I'm using one) or the first coat of whatever finish I am using.

The bottom line.... there is no definative right way to do anything when it comes to staining and finishing wood. There are tons and tons of different products and techniques available. Not all of which are right for you and your project. The best advice I can give, is to use the highest quality products that you can afford, generally those from a professional paint or wood working type store. For example, the Sher-wood products from the Sherwin Williams commercial or contractor store (not their retail stores by the mall) are superior to anything you can normally buy at a big box superstore. As are the General Finishes products you get at a Woodcraft or Rockler pro wood working store. ML Campbell is another of the highly regarded line of stains and finishes (but generally only come in gallons and above so REALLY geared for the pro). You may pay a little more, but the end result is usually far superior. Again, IMHO.

Just be sure you test your results on scrap pieces first. Keep track of your finishing schedule on each piece (so that it can be repeatable) until you get the final look you prefer. It's so much easier to make changes or adjustments on the scrap rather than trying or feeling the need to re-do the main piece that didn't come out right.

Good luck.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Thinned down hide glue works great as a water based stain pre-conditioner. Just experiment with the water ratio until you get the penetration/evenness ratio you are looking for. (Do samples first!)


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## CtotheT (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi!

Thanks guys for all your help!

Rick - Is the liquid hide glue cool to use? Would I need to water it down with hot water or cold?

Thanks again!


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

I would stick with hot water so it mixes easily.


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