# Building kitchen cabinets



## iceman536 (Oct 20, 2010)

Hi, great forum! I have a fairly standard "10 X 10" L-shaped kitchen with a 48" island. After getting quotes that were reasonable, but lower quality construction or quotes that seemed unreasonable I am thinking of building my own boxes. I will likely buy the drawers, drawer fronts, and doors.

What are the prevailing opinions on carcass construction materials? I do not expect to use any particle board or melamine but will use maple plywood instead. I read differing opinions on using melamine - so confusing!

Is 3/4" plywood too much (too heavy)? Should I use that for the sides, and something thinner for the backs? How about the upper cabinets, can I get by with thinner material? Is 5/8" or even 1/2" plywood "adequate"?

Saving a few bucks is secondary, I am most concerned about weight and "overbuilding" the boxes and of course appearance.

And finally, are there any good plans available for purchase? I'm looking for something to guide me with examples of joinery to use, bracing and support for the boxes, etc.

I recently remodeled our walk in pantry with birch plywood and (right or wrong!) has given me the confidence to undertake another, bigger, project. Any pointers on anything related to this project are much appreciated!


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

Welcome!

The first consideration is to decide which type of case to build . . . American or European. Then which type of hardware to use.

Basic cabinet construction is just box building. The first cabinet I built, I found a cabinet my uncle had built and copied it. 

When I build cabinets I identify and list all the invariables. Then I design the cabinets to respect all the invariables. I select everything, including finish, before I start. 

I like a natural birch interior and a selected species exterior.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

You can use 3/4" or 1/2" it's personal preference if your using face frames. If no face frame 3/4" is needed use 1/4" for the backs either way. I've seen some use 1/2" for the back but I use 1/4" with a 1/2" or 3/4" x 6" stringer across the top back to use for attaching to the wall. If you build the carcasses then you can build the drawers, I like 1/2" baltic birch or you can use solid wood if you would like but 2/4" drawer sides or to thick IMO. 1/4" bottoms is all that's needed. Now all you have to do is get the doors and drawer fronts built.


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## iceman536 (Oct 20, 2010)

I plan on face frame with partial overlay. I am just not sure the "best" way to go - it seems like there are countless ways based on personal preferences. I would really feel better with plans or a diagram so I build them sturdy and they can actually be installed. Other things I'm not sure of like do you finish the interiors, even with just something to protect the wood? Many seem to use melamine for that, which I would like to avoid. Maybe copying what I have now, with necessary improvements is the way to go?

I am thinking of buying a dovetail jig and if I do I'll make the drawers. Maybe overkill but I want to be proud of my workmanship and the extra time / money shouldn't be a problem.


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## 240sxguy (Sep 13, 2010)

Iceman, I am planning the exact same project so I am watching intently!


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

There's only three cabinets to build . . . a wall, a base, and a tall. The tall bottom is made like a base and it's top is made like a wall. That leaves only two cabinets to learn to make. The wall is just a box without a toe-kick, and a base is a box with a toe-kick. The invariables will dictate all sizes almost without exception. 

Just find a wall cabinet and a base cabinet and copy them. There's no need for a plan to build a cabinet, just a layout for the kitchen.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

"I use 1/4" with a 1/2" or 3/4" x 6" stringer across the top back to use for attaching to the wall."

Not to state the obvious, but when you put the stringer on your uppers, be sure they are exactly the same on each box. I once installed a custom job where they put on stringers of random widths and at different heights which unnecessarily complicated things. If you make them the same on all your uppers, you can level and screw a piece of plywood to your wall the entire length of the run. That way you don't have to hold the cabinet level as you screw to the wall, the strip holds it for you. 

As far as box construction goes rabbet the joints and then glue, clamp and staple. Let the glue cure before moving. You need corner braces on the open top side of the box. Dado out the back side of your face frame pieces before you assemble. You can pocket screw your face frames. Once assembled and cured, glue and clamp your face frame to your box then staple from the inside of your box at an angle while the face frame is still clamped on. Make separate toe kicks.


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## braden johns (Oct 19, 2010)

you can look at the book store they have how to books on every thing.some with the blue prints............hope you find one.......


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## iceman536 (Oct 20, 2010)

Hopefully also not stating the obvious - the back of the cabinet should be 3/4" inset, so when installing a 3/4" stringer it will be flush with the sides??


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## iceman536 (Oct 20, 2010)

sketel said:


> "I use 1/4" with a 1/2" or 3/4" x 6" stringer across the top back to use for attaching to the wall."
> 
> Dado out the back side of your face frame pieces before you assemble. You can pocket screw your face frames. Once assembled and cured, glue and clamp your face frame to your box then staple from the inside of your box at an angle while the face frame is still clamped on. Make separate toe kicks.


I haven't seen examples where the face frames are dado cut, but it makes a lot of sense to me. If you dado the face frames 1/4" do you then compensate by making the sides 1/4" deeper?

I hope that isn't a dumb question, but it cuts your interior depth 1/4" which will affect the shelves, drawers, etc.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

No need to inset the stringer. The upper cab that will go on the end of your run will have an end panel that extends all the way to the wall. This can be either the actual side of the box or make all your boxes the same and then apply an end panel after everything is hung. 

If you apply the end panel after, make sure you build your face frame with sufficient overhang to extend slightly (about a light 1/16") past your end panel. So if you are going to use a 1/4" end panel, you should have a light 5/16 overhang. But remember too that plywood is never full stated thickness so don't make your overhang too big or it will look funny.

Also, back bevel your face frames that are going to be attached to another cabinet. This makes it MUCH easier to get a tight face frame to face frame joint.


Also, since you have an island, remember to check and double check clearance for your dishwasher, oven and fridge/freezer doors. Remember to account for the pulls/ knobs that you are going to be using. If you have a dishwasher or stove in the corner of your L, remember they often will stick out beyond your cabinet face frame so be sure you leave room for doors/drawers to open on the opposite leg. Don't know if I am making sense but just think about how everything is going to open and be sure you have full clearance on all sides and remember to account for your pulls/knobs. Don't attempt to design your kitchen until you have all your appliances.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Standard depth of a base cabinet from back to finished edge is 24". For an upper it is 12". You can fudge the uppers if you feel the need but keep your bases standard so you don't cause headaches with appliances and countertops. So on your base if you dado your face frames 1/4", your box itself w/o face frame will be 23 1/2" deep assuming you are using 3/4" material for your face frame.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I find the traditional methods for fabricating kitchen cabinets with hardwood plywood to be best. I don't use pocket screws or biscuits. For the box (both upper and base), ¾" plywood is used. The sides are rabbeted to accept the tops and bottoms. On some the tops/bottoms could be machined that way.

Fixed shelves and dividers are fitted in dadoes. For both base and uppers, the back edge is rabbeted to accept ¼" plywood. For both uppers and base, an integral hangrail is installed in the top back corner of the cabinet to enable it to be screwed to the wall. This hang rail can be in front of the ¼" back, or behind it. The rabbet for the backs can be deep enough to allow scribe on the back edge of the case to fit the wall.

The base cabinet is constructed with a top rail, front and back, that installs connecting the top of the ends together and glued and fastened to the rabbets at the top edge of the ends. The hang rail at the back of base cabinets gets fastened to the underside of the cross rail forming a supportive "L". 

Base cabinets can be made as a box which sits on a loose toe kick, or, the toe kick can be an integral part of the carcase. If a face frame is used, it's made after the cabinets are assembled, and when squared, assembled. The case is squared and the face frame is glued and clamped to the cabinet. The back of the cabinet is cut square and fits the rabbets snugly, which when installed squares the back of the cabinet.

Other than rabbeted joinery there may be other methods facilitating mitered parts, by using router bits, like "lock miter bits".

I usually sand the interiors of all cabinets before assembly, and do the finish when they are together. You mentioned "buying drawers". Doing that should necessitate having the cabinets assembled, deciding on the drawer slide hardware if any, and allowing for necessary clearances before ordering.

A simple but strong drawer can be made from ½" plywood, and rabbeting the sides to accept the front and back. A groove (dadoe) for the bottom be machined ¼" to ⅜" from the bottom edge to slide a ¼" plywood bottom. The back of the drawer is cut short to allow the plywood to slide in. The bottom is a snug fit, and the drawer is squared with the bottom in, and then the back edge of the bottom is fastened to the underside of the back of the drawer. When a drawer is constructed like this, it can be assembled by using glue and brad nails shot from the front and back into the rabbets at an angle. That way there is no fastener showing from the sides.

There, you now have an opinion on what to use and how to do it.

Finishing tip: Cabinet interiors are finished before the backs get installed. Drawer interiors are finished before the bottoms are installed. Cabinet backs and drawer bottoms are finished as loose pieces.












 





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## iceman536 (Oct 20, 2010)

Thank you Cabinetman for taking the time to write all of that, it is very helpful.

When finishing "non-exposed" pieces - cabinet bottoms, interior sides, drawer interiors - what do you apply as a finish?


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## 240sxguy (Sep 13, 2010)

I would like to 2nd Iceman's thanks. Great posts guys.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

iceman536 said:


> Thank you Cabinetman for taking the time to write all of that, it is very helpful.
> 
> When finishing "non-exposed" pieces - cabinet bottoms, interior sides, drawer interiors - what do you apply as a finish?


It used to be lacquer, but I went to waterbase polyurethane in the late 80's.












 





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## Ledhead (Aug 3, 2009)

What's the world coming to when we trust a guy named cabinetman to be the resident expert on cabinet construction. 
Just kidding and that was a great write up. 
:notworthy::notworthy:


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Cabinetman, what type of joints do you use to assemble your face frame? I like using pocket screws for face frames and can't really think of a better way to do it. Enlighten me. (no I'm not being sarcastic. here to learn)


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Cabinetman again:
Don't you think separate toe kicks help to ease installation?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

sketel said:


> Cabinetman, what type of joints do you use to assemble your face frame? I like using pocket screws for face frames and can't really think of a better way to do it. Enlighten me. (no I'm not being sarcastic. here to learn)



Most all my cabinets are frameless. I see a lot of members using face frames. Since the front of the cabinets are covered by the doors, face frames are a useless waste of time and materials (money). They waste space, make the cabinets difficult to clean, and present modifications necessary to install drawers. 

I only use face frames if dictated, that is by design, not for rigidity. If the openings are within reasonable lengths, ¾" plywood is more than adequate to resist deflection. I would use face frames if a decorative visible hinge is to be used. Or, if carvings, or inlays, or fluting, or add on moulding is to be incorporated as part of the design, necessitating the space next to a door.

In the cases where I would make face frames, I may use a M&T joint (stub tenon), or a loose tenon, or dowels. In actuality, once the face frame is glued to the cabinet edge, even a butt joint won't pull apart, as the overlap of the stile on the top and bottom edges create a bond of those pieces to the ends.

So, without going to all the trouble of milling wood for face frames, even with a frameless cabinet, the front edges are covered with a wood edge. The sides are nice and clean, as is the bottom...no obstructions. IMO, the hinges used for cabinet side mounting are superior to FF mount hinges.



sketel said:


> Cabinetman again:
> Don't you think separate toe kicks help to ease installation?


I prefer loose toe kicks for a few reasons. It does make for an easier installation, as the toe kick can easily be leveled and the base cabinet just gets mounted on top. It also provides shim space between the toe kick and the floor, and between the toe kick and the cabinet. It also provides the possibility to replace a toe kick if necessary, and to make a toe kick from a different material, like something moisture resistant. Fabricating loose toe kicks allow the cabinet parts to be cut shorter thus allowing a better cutting yield from sheet goods.

Visually, finished ends look very good with some type of reveal, even if it's just ¼". Full finished ends to the floor on base cabinets look a bit bulky to me.












 





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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, the op said he was going with face frames so that's where I was coming from. I've done face frames with dowels and some with stub tenons but they take considerably longer for me. I'm sure for you doweling and mortise and tenon are quick and consistent but for me they take longer than pocket screwing. Although now that I have a horizontal boring machine, doweling is a lot easier. Maybe I _will_ switch to dowels now that I think about it.

I have had face frame joints that were butt jointed crack on me on an install but those were prefabs with particle board boxes. 
And it was pretty obvious there wasn't enough glue in the joint. I'm sure you're right that a properly constructed box would be enough support and you don't have to worry about the face frame joint strength too much when building custom.

As far as my question about the loose toe kicks, that was to clarify for the op because when I read your post it seemed you were not recommending one type of toe kick over the other and I would always choose separate toe kicks when given a choice and it sounds like you would too.

I've picked up a lot of info from your posts and I want to thank you again for replying to me personally.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i build my (4" high) toe kicks separate from the cabinet boxes for one additional reason - save on plywood. a 96" piece of ply can only get two typical 34 1/2" tall bases with waste. when the toe kick is not included you can now get three base sections of 30 1/2" out of the same 3/4" plywood sheet. yeah, that waste can be used for shelves etc. but i've found you still will reduce the waste.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

TimPa said:


> i build my (4" high) toe kicks separate from the cabinet boxes for one additional reason - save on plywood. a 96" piece of ply can only get two typical 34 1/2" tall bases with waste. when the toe kick is not included you can now get three base sections of 30 1/2" out of the same 3/4" plywood sheet. yeah, that waste can be used for shelves etc. but i've found you still will reduce the waste.


I have to agree about the separate toe kick. ESPECIALLY during installation. It is so much easier to install a toe kick level and then set the cabinets in place than trying to level the cabinets. I had an install that was off level by 1-1/2". That would have been a nightmare with the toe kick built into the cabinets.

If you have a string of cabinets, IMNSHO, it doesn't make a lot of sense to build the cabinets out of good plywood. Most of the ladies prefer a melamine interior AND only the end cabinets will show one side. The end that shows can easily and attractively be covered with some nice 1/4" plywood using contact cement.


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## jlhaslip (Jan 16, 2010)

> The end that shows can easily and attractively be covered with some nice 1/4" plywood using contact cement.


Typically, I would use a 3/4 or 5/8" End Panel screwed from inside.


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## Kevin Thomas (Oct 25, 2010)

I used to work in a cabinet shop. We made a lot of European style cabinets made out of MDF. I have also done some work with plywood of different thicknesses.

3/4" plywood is good, but the boxes will start to get heavy, making it hard to install (especially for upper cabinets). Another problem with thinner plywood like 1/2" or 5/8" is the material will start to get slight warping in it, making it difficult to be terribly accurate. I personally like it when my cabinets are perfect dimensions, and leave no spaces between them when they are installed. 

I made a site that talks a bit about my love of woodworking. Cabinets are no easy task, but they are definitely worth it.


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## sketel (Sep 15, 2010)

Kevin Thomas said:


> I personally like it when my cabinets are perfect dimensions, and leave no spaces between them when they are installed.



Perfect? you don't want to upset the gods. 
That reminded me of a guy I used to work with a while back. At the time he had been building cabinets for about 30 years and was one of the best in the area but when he would be dealing with a difficult customer he would say "wood is wood. If you want perfect, get plastic." He wasn't exactly what you would call a tactful person.


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## davidwilsoon (Oct 28, 2010)

rrbrown said:


> You can use 3/4" or 1/2" it's personal preference if your using face frames. If no face frame 3/4" is needed use 1/4" for the backs either way. I've seen some use 1/2" for the back but I use 1/4" with a 1/2" or 3/4" x 6" stringer across the top back to use for attaching to the wall. If you build the carcasses then you can build the drawers, I like 1/2" baltic birch or you can use solid wood if you would like but 2/4" drawer sides or to thick IMO. 1/4" bottoms is all that's needed. Now all you have to do is get the doors and drawer fronts built.


I plan on face frame with partial overlay. I am just not sure the "best" way to go - it seems like there are countless ways based on personal preferences. I would really feel better with plans or a diagram so I build them sturdy and they can actually be installed. Other things I'm not sure of like do you finish the interiors, even with just something to protect the wood? Many seem to use melamine for that, which I would like to avoid. Maybe copying what I have now, with necessary improvements is the way to go?


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

*melamine or prefinished plywood*

I've been using prefinished Chinese maple plywood for my boxes. If it was domestic that would be better.

I use 3/4" for the verticle partitions, 1/2" for floors and lids and 1/4" for the backs. I also use a 2 1/4" x 3/4" "nailer inside the cabinet at the top and bottom. I also use the same size materila for horizontal stiffeners behind my face frame rails. This make for an incredibly strong and flat cabinet face.

I typically use a face frame. I like to do a lot of decorative stuff with my face frames, built in scribe stiles, arches and wide toprails on the uppers to attach the crown easily.

IMHO I don't know how I'd do a lot of these details I do without a face frame.

Good luck, Bret


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Kevin Thomas said:


> I used to work in a cabinet shop. We made a lot of European style cabinets made out of MDF. I have also done some work with plywood of different thicknesses.
> 
> *3/4" plywood is good, but the boxes will start to get heavy, making it hard to install (especially for upper cabinets). Another problem with thinner plywood like 1/2" or 5/8" is the material will start to get slight warping in it, making it difficult to be terribly accurate. * I personally like it when my cabinets are perfect dimensions, and leave no spaces between them when they are installed.
> 
> I made a site that talks a bit about my love of woodworking. Cabinets are no easy task, but they are definitely worth it.





davidwilsoon said:


> I plan on face frame with partial overlay. I am just not sure the "best" way to go - it seems like there are countless ways based on personal preferences. I would really feel better with plans or a diagram so I build them sturdy and they can actually be installed. * Other things I'm not sure of like do you finish the interiors, even with just something to protect the wood? * Many seem to use melamine for that, which I would like to avoid. Maybe copying what I have now, with necessary improvements is the way to go?





*I have used 1/2 plywood for the sides on allot of cabinets. They were all face frames but they are as strong and straight as can be. I attached the sides to the FF by cutting a 1/4" x 3/8" rabbet on the sides and a 1/4" by 3/8" dado in the back of FF. when constructed glue the joint and I pop some small brads angled across the joint while it drys. I later realized that the brads were really unnecessary but that's how I was taught. I did a rabbet for the 1/4 "backs also. The bottom was tricky but I did the same as on the sides with the FF and used just dado joints on the sides.* *I finished all the insides with the clear cote.
* 
My cabinets built and finished this way went under 8' of water in Katrina and sat for a few days, they then went under 2' of crude oil from the oil spill. 4 month later my dad was going through my house and noticed not only did the drawers still work but they were still filled with water. 

I did go a few steps further then I had to but it pays off sometimes. Not that the cabinets didn't get demolished with the house but the pride that they were there and in good condition especially with the situation as it was. 

I have no problems with using 3/4" sides and just but joints but if you use 1/2" the extra effort helps. *I like finishing the interiors either way. 
* 
I've never used the separate toe kicks but it seams that is a common thing and I may try it to see. *What I did when making my own personal cabinets to save money was instead of building a 24" and a 36" cabinet (base or wall) I built a 60" cabinet with a divider. It saves one side panel and you mount less cabinets granted they can get a little heavier. I got the idea from Wood magazine I think but it worked well.*


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