# DIY saw blade sharpening



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Do any of you guys sharpen your own carbide table saw blades? Anyone own any of the machines I've seen on YouTube? I just watched someone sharpen 60 teeth in 4 minutes. Including setup.

It's not that I think it will save me any money. It's just that this kind of service is hard to come by around here. Shipping out is a pain. 

Also, has anyone had a blade sharpened and you thought it cut the same as when you bought it?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Rhyno (Oct 13, 2013)

Following along.....


----------



## DST (Jan 10, 2011)

I've had mine sharpened by a local shop here and they cut at least as good as new.


----------



## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

I've had mine sharpened at a local shop and they cut as good as new. Never did it my self.


----------



## DST (Jan 10, 2011)

Shout out to Snooks saw shop in Salem Oregon


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

This was about 10 years ago.

I had a good carbide tooth blade sharpened at a local (garage) shop and it literally destroyed the blade. Yes the blade cut and it was sharp but it was like putting a Harbor Freight grind onto a Woodworker II.

Later, at a trade show I was admiring a $50,000 machine designed to sharpen carbide table saw blades. I had a long discussion with the tech support guy for the company. I learned more than I really wanted to know about the geometry of sharpening carbide tooth blades. 

The screaming message is that to sharpen blades you need a machine that has the ability to grind the blade to the geometry that the manufacturer put on the original teeth. 

Think of it this way. A carbide tooth before grinding is a cube. After sharpening, five of the surfaces of the cube are ground to five different angles. The guy with the machine in the garage probably can do two surfaces of two different angles. 

For high speed steel blades, I've seen a guy do them by hand with a file. He did a rather good job too.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I wouldn't bother trying to sharpen a carbide tipped blade. Doing it by hand could not get the exact repeatability of all the faces the same.








 







.


----------



## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I wouldn't attempt to sharpen my own expensive blades for fear of damage, and cheap blades aren't worth bothering with. For < $20, you can gain access to tens of thousands of dollars worth of precision equipment run by trained experts. You can load up on good closeout blades when they're on sale for a fraction of retail, then send out multiples to be sharpened to help maximize shipping costs and hassle.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes I've done it...and done it quite well.

In terms of comparing doing at home/shop vs "sending it out".....think about that for a moment.

Consider sending it to a shop that's WAY too busy(good thing,except for your blade)....and your blade is in line for a Friday afternoon sharpening.You-all know what I'm inferring....just say the shop isn't paying enough attention here.

Compared to:

Homeboy has all the time in the world,has almost unlimited funds/equipment.And takes pleasure in not only sharpening "stuff",but has a thorough knowlege on the subject and can make minute changes to the tips geometry at will.

The machines that are used today have been very successfully designed to eliminate a lot of "skill" on the part of the end user.So,your sharpening shop can hire the cheapest HS kid that will stand in front of it and babysit it.Not saying this in a bad way......its the way machinery gets developed,like it or not.There just isn't enough time in the day for a study'd,highly skilled,highly paid guy to sharpen blades.We'll see a slight downward spiral in the overall quality of this service in the ensuing years I'm affraid.

There are benny's to sharpening "at home".....but you'll play heck trying to put any real numbers on it.And that's time AND money.....moreso than any perceived "precision"(which we can put numbers to).


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BWSmith said:


> Yes I've done it...and done it quite well.
> 
> In terms of comparing doing at home/shop vs "sending it out".....think about that for a moment.
> 
> ...


Just curious...how are you going to assure that each tooth (all its faces) is done exactly alike?








 







.


----------



## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

It's work enough keeping chisels, saws, and scrapers sharp. That's not to mention the knife set my wife keeps using as ninja swords. A TS blade is one thing I'm just going to keep buying and would never try to learn to sharpen nor would I want to. Even if I knew how, it just looks tedious at best. One expense I don't mind incurring.


----------



## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

I had one carbide blade sharpened in my life, and it never cut as smoothly after that. It was many years ago, and the savings compared to buying new was more significant to me than it would be now, but I wasted that $$.

I'm only an occasional hobby woodworker, so blades last me a long time, and the replacement cost averages out to a small cost added to each project. I can see that sharpening would be a significant savings to someone who makes sawdust every day though.

Having said the above, I have considered trying to rig up a jig to use my Fein Multimaster with a diamond sharpening blade to sharpen my sawblades. If/when I do, I'll be sure to post a full report of that disaster!


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

knotscott said:


> I wouldn't attempt to sharpen my own expensive blades for fear of damage, and cheap blades aren't worth bothering with. For < $20, you can gain access to tens of thousands of dollars worth of precision equipment run by trained experts. You can load up on good closeout blades when they're on sale for a fraction of retail, then send out multiples to be sharpened to help maximize shipping costs and hassle.


I'm not talking about hand sharpening. I'm talking about using my own machine. I don't have access to a place with tens of thousands of dollars worth of sharpening tools.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Noek said:


> It's work enough keeping chisels, saws, and scrapers sharp. That's not to mention the knife set my wife keeps using as ninja swords. A TS blade is one thing I'm just going to keep buying and would never try to learn to sharpen nor would I want to. Even if I knew how, it just looks tedious at best. One expense I don't mind incurring.


4 minutes on a machine made for blades that's the size of a bench grinder at under $400.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Stevedore said:


> I had one carbide blade sharpened in my life, and it never cut as smoothly after that. It was many years ago, and the savings compared to buying new was more significant to me than it would be now, but I wasted that $$.
> 
> I'm only an occasional hobby woodworker, so blades last me a long time, and the replacement cost averages out to a small cost added to each project. I can see that sharpening would be a significant savings to someone who makes sawdust every day though.
> 
> Having said the above, I have considered trying to rig up a jig to use my Fein Multimaster with a diamond sharpening blade to sharpen my sawblades. If/when I do, I'll be sure to post a full report of that disaster!


I can honestly say and agree with you. I have never had a good quality blade come back like new. Most cut like a cheap box store blade.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

rrich said:


> This was about 10 years ago.
> 
> I had a good carbide tooth blade sharpened at a local (garage) shop and it literally destroyed the blade. Yes the blade cut and it was sharp but it was like putting a Harbor Freight grind onto a Woodworker II.
> 
> ...


I had the same experience, and when I confronted them about it, they had no answer. From that I took it they had never seen a glue joint blade. 

thanks for your response.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

DST said:


> Shout out to Snooks saw shop in Salem Oregon


You wouldn't believe how far I live from Salem. May as well be the moon.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> 4 minutes on a machine made for blades that's the size of a bench grinder at under $400.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


Are these blades really that expensive


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Noek said:


> Are these blades really that expensive


Noek
$400 for the sharpening machine.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BWSmith said:


> Yes I've done it...and done it quite well.


I still ask the same question...Just curious...how are you going to assure that each tooth (all its faces) is done exactly alike?








 





 
.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> I'm not talking about hand sharpening. I'm talking about using my own machine.


What machine is that?


















.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Been working......

The only thing thats going to show any appreciable wear would be the grinding wheel itself.Going with a Diamond wheel makes that a non-issue.

So if you have a stub or mandrel......and can get as fancy or simple here as you like.The simple being you're only dealing with one size spindle/arbor.saw shops have to size up/down to accomodate different sizes.But in any case what wear there is on this mandrel is nil.Meaning there just isn't any "slop" to speak of here.

We've cover'd the wheel diameter and we've cover'd the stub mandrel.

What's left C-man?This has to be one of the alltime easiest fixtures to build.You can either have the blade sliding in/out or the motor(with wheel).Your pick?But this is where you have some tolerances....in either case.BUT,those numbers are at a right angle to the direction of travel.IOW's,even if you went to the time to install gibs....think about the direction they'd be opperating?

A dead simple "stop" performs the real function here.....and we'll asume anyone can design a threaded bolt stop.....no play there.

Metrology 101;
I call them snap gages but thats not right and I'm doing a disservice to the industry calling it such...appologies.But if you have a fixed point,in this case a stub on which any blade would fit snuggly and you have a dial indicator that is presented to each tooth,you simply are checking the hole to tooth diameter.Instrumental accuracy is at issue here.Big range in their price/quality....drop as much as you can afford.Most grinder shops are satisfied with .001's.But when you're doing it for yourself,take it to whatever you see fit.

The "snap" part is the fact that some of these indicators have neat little handles for lifting the probe.I have one used for sheet metal thicknesses.Somehwere I thought it was called a snap gage....my mistake,as you certainly shouldn't be dropping the probe(snapping it) onto the part.

If you saw how dang easy this stuff is to measure......I swear,you've done projects(as most serious WW'ers on here)that makes this childs play.And can not stress that enough.Which is why I'm always amazed when these types of subjects come up?It's bloomin easy and if you put on your thinking cap during the fixture design,is STUPID FAST.Categorically dismissing this as not necessary is your prerogative,but if you saw(ha) how quick/painless it is....you would think otherwise.

I've said it before.....we're taking std 10" blades and opening the arbor hole up to mate with the 14/16 German TS spindel.This is a heck of lot more involved than sharpening....and even it's easy-peasy.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BWSmith said:


> Been working......
> 
> The only thing thats going to show any appreciable wear would be the grinding wheel itself.Going with a Diamond wheel makes that a non-issue.
> 
> ...


It would be a real benefit for us to see your setup. So, if you post some pictures, that would be appreciated.:yes:


















.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Get on E-bay and look at professionally designed,specific use equipment.

My setups should NOT be used as any sort of guidline or how-to.They are ad hoc at best....downright stupid at worst.But the proof is in the pudding so to speak.........

A story,then I'm going back to work;I shoot a recurve bow with woody's and NO sights.In competiton can and do usually place about 60-80% up the scoring bd.This is against compound bows with all the bells N whistles.

You could say,'wow thats impressive"....but if you didn't see it done....it wouldn't make any difference on the leader board.IOW's the results speak for themselves.So if a guy is using Fred Flintstone techniques but has "cert'd,measurable results" that compare with fancy high $$ equipment.....who's to say.I can show(in person)you how to take a crummy C-man rip fence and make it faster,and WAY more accurate than a 400$ Bessy........who cares?The end result is that the cut is at "X" amt of measure,irrespective of what fence was used.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

BWSmith said:


> Get on E-bay and look at professionally designed,specific use equipment.
> 
> My setups should NOT be used as any sort of guidline or how-to.They are ad hoc at best....downright stupid at worst.But the proof is in the pudding so to speak.........


Actually I'd like to see yours no matter what you think of it. That's what DIY is all about. :yes:








 







.


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> Just curious...how are you going to assure that each tooth (all its faces) is done exactly alike?


Unh, you don't want all the faces exactly alike. At best 50/50 but more than likely less than 50/50.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rrich said:


> Unh, you don't want all the faces exactly alike. At best 50/50 but more than likely less than 50/50.


Sorry if my wording was to general and confusing. For a particular type blade it may have different tooth designs as in triple chip for example.
.









What I referred to is that the teeth have several faces, and those same teeth (with like faces) on the same blade should be done identically. "Faces" refers to the sides, top, and front of the tooth. Basically, all the carbide surfaces that come into contact with whatever is being cut.

Is that better?


















.


----------



## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

I touch up my blades with a flat diamond file, full sharpening is a different matter though. Had an old fella lived near who could sharpen carbide blades like nothing , unfortunately he retired and sold his equipment to someone who sharpened blades that where about as good as garden forks.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

1947 Norton 6x18 surface grinder.....hydraulic feed(isn't hooked up,too cheap to buy a res tank that we can build in 2 shakes).On a Walker mag chuck......I don't think this is what you're refering to is it C-man?If it is,uhhh theres a cpl parts that are off for a refurb.The sheet metal that encloses the back portion is off.But I will get them straighten'd and into paint and back on.Then have to move some of the junk stored on it but promise,will do that as well,haha.


I've sharpen'd blades with WAY more primitive equipment than the above.This would be a whole heck of a lot more usage to DIY efforts than pics of a classic 'ole surface grinder(as badazzz as it may be).Will throw some parts together and take a pic for you though,give me a cpl days.


----------



## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> Sorry if my wording was to general and confusing. For a particular type blade it may have different tooth designs as in triple chip for example. . What I referred to is that the teeth have several faces, and those same teeth (with like faces) on the same blade should be done identically. "Faces" refers to the sides, top, and front of the tooth. Basically, all the carbide surfaces that come into contact with whatever is being cut. Is that better? .


 Looks like this is what you would need to sharpen all the faces http://youtu.be/bXlanjhETeo of course you could probably buy a lifetimes worth of new blades for the price of it


----------



## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> "Faces" refers to the sides, top, and front of the tooth. Basically, all the carbide surfaces that come into contact with whatever is being cut.
> 
> Is that better?
> 
> .


Much more gooder.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Well guys. After looking at a bizillion videos. I haven't seen any of the machines do anything except sharpen the front edge/face of the teeth. Weather it's a multi thousand dollar machine or a few hundred. 

Set the blade set the correct angle make a pass and move on to the next tooth indexing the machine on the tooth you just sharpened. None of the machines touched the sides or tops. Hmmmmm.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Al, that video Dopelganger linked to looked like it was hitting all those spots. But like it was said , probably cost way too much to even look at it.


----------



## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

rayking49 said:


> Al, that video Dopelganger linked to looked like it was hitting all those spots. But like it was said , probably cost way too much to even look at it.


 I also imagine that to properly sharpen a tooth (4 faces or facets) even on just a 60 tooth blade would be very time consuming to set up the angles and program it. So maybe back to the drawing board on something cheaper to use. Now if you were going into business to do this as a service and it was all you used and mastered it then maybe that type of device would be worth the investment?? Glen

Oh yeah and Baileigh makes the http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baileigh-Co...994?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd40d1562 this for 13k and it looks likes it can be angled for the different facets.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dopalgangr said:


> I also imagine that to properly sharpen a tooth (4 faces or facets) even on just a 60 tooth blade would be very time consuming to set up the angles and program it. So maybe back to the drawing board on something cheaper to use. Now if you were going into business to do this as a service and it was all you used and mastered it then maybe that type of device would be worth the investment?? Glen
> 
> Oh yeah and Baileigh makes the http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baileigh-Cold-Saw-Blade-Sharpener-GS-450-Cold-Saw-Blades-/261255664994?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd40d1562 this for 13k and it looks likes it can be angled for the different facets.


See the point I was making is. None of your blades are getting sharpened on the facets when you send them out. They hit the "face" and take it back to a point where it's sharp.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

rayking49 said:


> Al, that video Dopelganger linked to looked like it was hitting all those spots. But like it was said , probably cost way too much to even look at it.


I think your right. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't know if this was posted but I found this on How Its Made show (love that show BTW) 



 Never really knew how those carbide teeth were attached. My father told me once that a carpenter he knew had one of the teeth fly off the blade while cutting and hit his face causing a serious gash. I wonder if by resharpening these it would weaken that weld or if it was just a fluke?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Dopalgangr said:


> Don't know if this was posted but I found this on How Its Made show (love that show BTW) How Its Made Circular Saw Blades - YouTube Never really knew how those carbide teeth were attached. My father told me once that a carpenter he knew had one of the teeth fly off the blade while cutting and hit his face causing a serious gash. I wonder if by resharpening these it would weaken that weld or if it was just a fluke?


When teeth get dislodged they usually come off during the cut or right after. For a table saw blade, they can be found under the saw. That doesn't mean it always happens like that. We had a local saw operator feel a sting on his forehead. He said it felt like a bee sting. A tooth came off and penetrated his skull. Scuttlebut on the incident was he had it removed and was OK. Would have been different if it hit his eye.

This says a lot about using a blade guard.


















.


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

alhough a "thorough" sharpening of all the facets would be nice, i wonder as the op initially requested for a home-made sharpening... if the front face were ground, it would in effect apply a new cutting _edge _to all of the intersecting edges of the adjacent faces. which wouldn't be bad for a touch-up effort. of course the angle there needs to be exact as well.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*once again, common sense rises to the occasion*

By grinding all the faces the kerf would be reduced. By grinding just the front face it would also, but by a miniscule amount..... I think the tangent of the angle, well maybe the sin , possiblly the cosine.... heck, I donno? any math majors out there?


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

i agree with the tangent. the tooth width will be reduced at a rate of 
2 x tan (the angle formed by the face and the side facet) x amount removed from face. maybe.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Dopalgangr said:


> Don't know if this was posted but I found this on How Its Made show (love that show BTW) Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUtOMIlv2ok Never really knew how those carbide teeth were attached. My father told me once that a carpenter he knew had one of the teeth fly off the blade while cutting and hit his face causing a serious gash. I wonder if by resharpening these it would weaken that weld or if it was just a fluke?


Thanks for the link. I love the How It show too.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

TimPa said:


> alhough a "thorough" sharpening of all the facets would be nice, i wonder as the op initially requested for a home-made sharpening... if the front face were ground, it would in effect apply a new cutting edge to all of the intersecting edges of the adjacent faces. which wouldn't be bad for a touch-up effort. of course the angle there needs to be exact as well.


I agree Tim. I have never had a blade come back as good as it was new. So a touch up might work once or twice and then pitch it. The way things are going these days with the thin kerf blades. There's not much there to sharpen.

The units I've been looking at do in fact dial in the angles.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

TimPa said:


> i agree with the tangent. the tooth width will be reduced at a rate of
> 2 x tan (the angle formed by the face and the side facet) x amount removed from face. maybe.


Well come to think of it. My glue joint blades did require sharpening on the sides too. They didn't have much if any kerf. Anyone remember those Systmatic blades?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

Our shop does professional saw blade sharpening. We have been in the saw sharpening business since 1903. 

We are located in St. Louis, Mo.

Here is a sample of some of the equipment we use in the shop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09-VSzL4ys

Thanks


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

triplechip said:


> Our shop does professional saw blade sharpening. We have been in the saw sharpening business since 1903.
> 
> We are located in St. Louis, Mo.
> 
> ...


Well do chime in anytime. Give use the inside skinny. What's the answer? Do you folks sharpen the blade like new again? 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

Dear Al,

The secret to proper saw blade sharpening is years of experience and the right equipment to do the job.

Since 1903 W.D. Quinn Saw Co. has provided professional saw blade sharpening for the wood, plastic and metal cutting industry. 

We do our best to return a saw blade to our customers that is as clean, straight and sharp as possible. 

Our prices are as follows.

10-40 teeth $10.00
42-60 teeth $15.00
62-80 teeth $20.00
82-100 teeth $25.00

Tip replacement $3.00


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> Well do chime in anytime. Give use the inside skinny. What's the answer? Do you folks sharpen the blade like new again?
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


To answer your question, sharpening a carbide tipped blade with some kind of mechanical sharpener done as a DIY cannot compare to the sharpening done by a professional service.








 





 
.


----------



## tito5 (Apr 5, 2011)

maybe I am missing the point of this thread......why not just buy a new or second blade? Not sure where you are located but unless you are a shop or really serious woodworker you shouldn't be able to wear out a blade in the time it takes to get it back. I am sure there are a few people here that could recommend a good blade and or a place to send them to? (I know one has already posted in this thread)


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

triplechip said:


> Dear Al,
> 
> The secret to proper saw blade sharpening is years of experience and the right equipment to do the job.
> 
> ...


Well that's somewhat of an ambiguous answer. I guess that would go without saying. I'm surprised after watching the video such a machine as it is wouldn't do a better than new job on sharpening. 

I guess I'm going to continue to use a new blade until it dulls a little then relegate it to cutting junk wood and then pitch it.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Hackberry (Jul 4, 2013)

I have several carbide blades that have been sharpened. Costs me about $20. You have to have enough carbide on the tooth to make it worth while. I have a Delta blade purchased in 1981 that cost about $40 at the time. Its been sharpened at least twice and still cuts well. Puckett tool was bought out by Acme tool but its still the same people in Des Moines. I have heard good things about Edie saw on Minneapolis as well. But they are 3.5 hours away from me so I go more locally to Des Moines.

A $20 blade will not have nearly as much carbide on the tooth as a $80 or $110 blade. But always look to see what you are buying.

I don't think carbide can be properly sharpened well at home. You may be able to touch it up some what with a diamond stone but consistent angle is key to any sharpening job.


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

The Vollmer machinery we use to sharpen the blades is the same machinery used worldwide to manufacture saw blades. Being a sharpening shop, we see all the different tooth forms and shapes every day. Extra care is taken here with each individual blade vs a manufacturer where they are making hundreds of the same thing, so your blades should last longer. 

It also depends on the quality of the saw blade. It is not cost effective to sharpen a 7-1/4" skil saw blade that costs $10 new and has a tiny carbide tip. However, a higher quality table saw blade, like a Forrest, that costs $100 new and has a large carbide tip can be resharpened many times for around $20 with the same cut quality as new.

During our sharpening process, the face (front) and the top of the tooth are both ground to remove the dullness. Our machine has 2 diamond wheels for each facet, and the blade is ground in 2 revolutions. 1 revolution to grind all of the faces, and a 2nd revolution to grind all of the top facets. This is all done under intensive oil cooling so there is no heat build up during the grinding process. Heat can destroy a cutting edge too.

Saw blade sharpening is our livelyhood and my company has been in my family for 5 generations. We have continually invested in the latest CNC saw blade machinery to give our customers the best service possible. 

Sure, you can try it yourself, but the quality will not compare to utilizing machinery that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and having a skilled operator with decades of experience.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

triplechip said:


> Sure, you can try it yourself, but the quality will not compare to utilizing machinery that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and having a skilled operator with decades of experience.


+1. :yes:








 





 
.


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Mr Zickel,a cpl questions if you can answer.

I watched your vid,where was the operator?I thought the reason for CNC was to lesson the skill required?Meaning once programmed,the machine basically runs itself?

Do you check every blade that comes off the machine?And what procedures do you use for this?Meaning,what kind of test equipment?

Do you ever run into cases where the customer requests checking the balance of a blade.Lets say there's been several teeth replaced....or there might have been some vibration issues.


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for your questions. 

Our Vollmer service center robotically loads and unloads the blades into the grinding machine. The machine has an integrated Renishaw probing system that checks various dimensions of the blade (tooth width, hook angle, tooth shape...) and confirms this against what the operator has programed before proceeding with the grinding of the teeth.

Our carbide department personnel spend the day inspecting blades for tip damage and blade runout. If any tips are broken, then they are replaced with new tips and they are side ground to match the existing tip kerf. We also ultrasonically clean the blades to remove any pitch build up and polish the blade to restore the body to as new condition.

We have numerous video inspection systems to check the blades along with a runout test stand and blade straightening capabilities. Our skilled hammersmiths can straighten and retension blades so the blades run true.

We combine the technology of the CNC grinding with the skill of the operator to provide the best service. Its amazing how much is involved and customers are amazed that it only costs around $20 to sharpen a blade.


----------



## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Noek
> $400 for the sharpening machine.


Is it something like this?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Julie Mor said:


> Is it something like this?


That looks accurate as all get out.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:








 







.


----------



## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

DST said:


> I've had mine sharpened by a local shop here and they cut at least as good as new.


The guy I use is a Freud dealer and can make a NEW Freud blade 'better' after he has sharpened it...

Has (many times) sharpened blades other companies deemed 'unservicable' with no problems...

Can make custom knives for me off nothing more than a drawing or sketch or sample of what I want to copy... (think Hussey type knives here)

:thumbsup:

ALWAYS cheaper to sharpen than buy new for me. :yes:


----------



## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

OnealWoodworking said:


> The guy I use is a Freud dealer and can make a NEW Freud blade 'better' after he has sharpened it...
> 
> Has (many times) sharpened blades other companies deemed 'unservicable' with no problems...
> 
> ...


i am jealous, you got a keeper there. i gave my sharrpener a dozen blades and he put the same grind on all of them, and a bad one at that. i wanted to sue him.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

triplechip said:


> The Vollmer machinery we use to sharpen the blades is the same machinery used worldwide to manufacture saw blades. Being a sharpening shop, we see all the different tooth forms and shapes every day. Extra care is taken here with each individual blade vs a manufacturer where they are making hundreds of the same thing, so your blades should last longer.
> 
> It also depends on the quality of the saw blade. It is not cost effective to sharpen a 7-1/4" skil saw blade that costs $10 new and has a tiny carbide tip. However, a higher quality table saw blade, like a Forrest, that costs $100 new and has a large carbide tip can be resharpened many times for around $20 with the same cut quality as new.
> 
> ...


I certainly didn't think DIY would sharpen as good as new. And my point of the thread was to see if anyone had a method or machine. Also wondered if I was the only one that sent blades out and wasn't satisfied with the results. Apparently I'm not. I'm sure that I have never had blades sharpened by a machine such as yours. I didn't know such a machine was available to a small shop guy like me.

Thanks for your input.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Julie Mor said:


> Is it something like this?
> 
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKHjxa4a0rk


It was much better than that one. If I figure out how to post the link I will.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

OnealWoodworking said:


> The guy I use is a Freud dealer and can make a NEW Freud blade 'better' after he has sharpened it...
> 
> Has (many times) sharpened blades other companies deemed 'unservicable' with no problems...
> 
> ...


Lucky you.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I guess I would also wonder just what does the manufacturer have that makes them so perfect? More material? Finer grind? More multi- thousand dollar machine?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

This is a great discussion, but nothing more, for a start grouping sharpening services into one category is fuzzy logic. Find a sharpening service that knows what they are doing and use them, your cheap blades will cut better than new, your good blades as good as new. Buy as many blades as you need, so you always have at least one spare on hand while the others are out for service.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

FrankC said:


> This is a great discussion, but nothing more, for a start grouping sharpening services into one category is fuzzy logic. Find a sharpening service that knows what they are doing and use them, your cheap blades will cut better than new, your good blades as good as new. Buy as many blades as you need, so you always have at least one spare on hand while the others are out for service.


Well Frank I've been doing that since before carbide was ever put on the tip. You know we wood heads were the first to do a lot of things before the manufacturers came out with a product. Like router tables and good table as fences. Used to not be able to sharpen planer blades too.

We have a guy right here on this thread that has yet to say a sharpened blade is as good as when it came out of the package. Just sayin.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

I can't vouch for other sharpening shops or do-it-yourselfers, but a blade sharpened by Quinn Saw is as good or better than new! :thumbsup:


----------



## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Beating dead horses?......naw,that's the cool part about the grinding process.There isn't any limit on how far you can take it.

Nobody said anything when triplechip introduced dual grinding wheels.....so I will.Am going to assume that the wheels "chase" each other.Kind of like a scoring blade on a nice TS.The first grind,simply washes out the existing geometry....the second wheel chases this with a finish grind.Yes/no?

It's faster that way......otherwise we have to go 'round this dang blade 2x for each grind.Like if you were to score your cut on a TS,then change blades and then, make the "thru" cut.

I was grinding today......and really needed to take a pic but,was using my new to me B&S bevel protractor that is not only scaled in degrees,but also minutes.Had to use our big magnifier to find out that the angle/bevel was 69 degrees and 50 minutes......looked like 70 degrees at a glance.....duh.Everything worked out to within a few minutes,all's good.

Another thing Triple mentioned was cooling with oil.Did some of that today as well......but simply won't go into details because of some reprisal BS that keeps coming up(not by him).......suffice it to say it can be done at home.What's interesting to the woodgrinder is how it can be utilized....just not a lot of info out there on the subject.It's a daily affair in "finish world".I will always use air cooling as a metric when grinding wood though.

Really want to thank triplechip for contributing to the thread.He easily could have blown this whole thing off as a bunch of wannabe's....but he didn't.He gave some nice clues to how things are done in "his" world.


----------



## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

triplechip said:


> Thanks for your questions.
> 
> Our Vollmer service center robotically loads and unloads the blades into the grinding machine. The machine has an integrated Renishaw probing system that checks various dimensions of the blade (tooth width, hook angle, tooth shape...) and confirms this against what the operator has programed before proceeding with the grinding of the teeth.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill - Thanks for the information and the link. I've been using a local guy who isn't bad but not great. Blades usually come back better but nowhere near a new grind. Last time I sent a couple off to a place in Connecticut and they came back great but shipping both ways was more than the cost of the regrind. I'm pretty well set for the moment but I did bookmark your link..
Thanks again.:thumbsup:


----------



## triplechip (Jun 8, 2009)

BWSmith,
Regarding the dual grinding wheels. Yes there are 2 grinding wheels on the Vollmer sharpening machine. One wheel is for the face grinding the saw, and the other is for top grinding the saw blade.
But, the wheel that is used for the top grinding has 3 different grits on the wheel.

As the grinding process starts, the leading edge of the diamond wheel has 180 grit. Then as the wheel passes over the saw tooth the second part of the wheel has 400 grit. and then finishes the grind with a 1200 grit. 

Here is a little better visual of the machinery we use at our shop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkZaVQr7TE

If you look at the video you can see the dual grinding wheels and how they are used.

jschaben,

I appreciate you keeping us in mind. Thanks


----------



## Dopalgangr (Jan 20, 2012)

triplechip said:


> BWSmith, Regarding the dual grinding wheels. Yes there are 2 grinding wheels on the Vollmer sharpening machine. One wheel is for the face grinding the saw, and the other is for top grinding the saw blade. But, the wheel that is used for the top grinding has 3 different grits on the wheel. As the grinding process starts, the leading edge of the diamond wheel has 180 grit. Then as the wheel passes over the saw tooth the second part of the wheel has 400 grit. and then finishes the grind with a 1200 grit. Here is a little better visual of the machinery we use at our shop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkZaVQr7TE If you look at the video you can see the dual grinding wheels and how they are used. jschaben, I appreciate you keeping us in mind. Thanks


Thats a pretty cool machine and IMHO would say that it can sharpen the same if not better than new.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

triplechip said:


> I can't vouch for other sharpening shops or do-it-yourselfers, but a blade sharpened by Quinn Saw is as good or better than new! :thumbsup:


I'm sure that's true. But why didn't you say that in the first post? 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*let me guess...*

Because it's so firmly ingrained in his mind it never occured to him. He just "knows" that's the case. For us "doubters" , I for one, would not have believed him anyway. Yah Sure, buddy...right. He's got me convinced now however. :yes:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Because it's so firmly ingrained in his mind it never occured to him. He just "knows" that's the case. For us "doubters" , I for one, would not have believed him anyway. Yah Sure, buddy...right. He's got me convinced now however. :yes:


Woodenthings
Do you send them out? If so, do you get good results or do you settle?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I'm in the middle*

I have sent some out, but not used those yet. I buy so many blades I forget which one I have or don't and end up with multiples.... yah, I know. But I have multiple saws, so it's hard to keep track.
Most recently I'm on a Freud Diable kick, 24 T, 40T, 50T, 60T and maybe an 80T? More than one of each usually. They are so cheap/reasonable that I can't resist. 
I have some "good' blades, Deltas, and Forrest, but again I haven't used them ...yet. I have a 12" X 1" arbor table saw, and that size also fits my Dewalt 12", but they are really different types, rip and crosscut.

Bang for the buckwise, I like the Diablos and they are thin kerf for my
"smaller" less HP saws. I also use one on the shop built panel saw, sheet good only. I get good results on all. When they start to get dull, I will send them out to:
http://www.yellowpages.com/dryden-mi/mip/cutting-edge-sharpening-5931847?lid=5931847

They have a complete sharpening service and do all sorts of cutters and blades for the local industries. They were recommended by a large woodworking retailer in Birmingham, MI, Glenn Wing Power Tools.


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> I have sent some out, but not used those yet. I buy so many blades I forget which one I have or don't and end up with multiples.... yah, I know. But I have multiple saws, so it's hard to keep track.
> Most recently I'm on a Freud Diable kick, 24 T, 40T, 50T, 60T and maybe an 80T? More than one of each usually. They are so cheap/reasonable that I can't resist.
> I have some "good' blades, Deltas, and Forrest, but again I haven't used them ...yet. I have a 12" X 1" arbor table saw, and that size also fits my Dewalt 12", but they are really different types, rip and crosscut.
> 
> ...


I like the Diablo too. Mostly because I can just pick them up at a million locations. I'm using the 84 tooth now. I cut any hard wood with it and don't care if I'm ripping or cross cutting. I pull it when I run junk wood and soft wood. This one has the triple tooth style. I say I'm going to send some blades out but haven't done it for 5 to 10 years now. Just don't think it's worth it. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## kelsochris (Aug 15, 2013)

I actually had a job for a year at an industrial grinding shop that did everything from 7 1/4" blades to 20' paper knives for the big mills. We had a Foley-Belsaw machine for circular saw blades. If I remember correctly we had to first mark every other tooth on the blade to reference alternate bevels ect. Then you would grind all the sides of those teeth. Then reset the machine and cut the opposite bevels on the other teeth then another set up to do the top bevels. And then you would do the faces of the teeth.it was a pain if I remember right. I didn't mind the big blades from the saw mills but ten and twelve inch blades sucked. Especially the ones with higher tooth counts. I had no machine shop experience and the guy that trained me was afraid I was going to get his job so it took me several jobs to get the hang of it. I got to where I could retooth a blade and grind it pretty well.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> Woodenthings
> Do you send them out? If so, do you get good results or do you settle?


Funny...you asked a simple question and got a list of all the blades he says he has, but never sent one out to be sharpened. I've sent out blades for years, about every couple of months. They come back like they were new. Local services pick up blades and I get them delivered back in the same week.



Al B Thayer said:


> I'm using the 84 tooth now.


An 80T is the finest blade I have, and I've rarely used it. I can't envision using an 84T as a general purpose blade.


















.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> *I have sent some out*, but not used those yet. To ......
> They have a complete sharpening service and do all sorts of cutters and blades for the local industries. They were recommended by a large woodworking retailer in Birmingham, MI, Glenn Wing Power Tools.





cabinetman said:


> Funny...you asked a simple question and got a list of all the blades he says* he has, but never sent one out to be sharpened. *


Really? First off, that's not all the blades I have, not even close. :no: Second, what part of the first sentence did you not comprehend? You are really annoying. :thumbdown:


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> Really? First off, that's not all the blades I have, not even close. :no:


What's annoying is all the blowharding.:yes:








 







.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*keep blowing and hijacking*



cabinetman said:


> What's annoying is all the blowharding.:yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not let the OP decide whether the posts are informative, not you?


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

This is what sparked my interest.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/wood-table-...143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2f88255f









I'd love to try it out.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that thing looks cool!*

It's got every adjustment you'll need except for the solar eclipse and the vernal equinox.  Shipping is a whopping $110 however. :thumbdown:


----------



## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> It's got every adjustment you'll need except for the solar eclipse and the vernal equinox.  Shipping is a whopping $110 however. :thumbdown:


On ebay. The seller pays a percentage of the price to EBay. Some sellers move some of the price into the shipping side in order to pay less to EBay. If we are honest with our selves, we know it costs to ship everything. Nothing is really shipped for free. It's in the cost of doing business. With a item like this it's easy to justify a higher shipping cost to the folks at EBay so they do. 

Sure some forgo tacking on a shipping cost to be competitive. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> On ebay. The seller pays a percentage of the price to EBay. Some sellers move some of the price into the shipping side in order to pay less to EBay. If we are honest with our selves, we know it costs to ship everything. Nothing is really shipped for free. It's in the cost of doing business. With a item like this it's easy to justify a higher shipping cost to the folks at EBay so they do.
> 
> Sure some forgo tacking on a shipping cost to be competitive.
> 
> Al


Nice find Al. Go for it. Sharpen your blades and let us know.:yes:








 







.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*DIY blade sharpening*

Here's a video I found on You Tube:





here's another:


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*Maybe Your Blades*



woodnthings said:


> Here's a video I found on You Tube:
> How I sharpen Table Saw Blades - In real time - YouTube
> 
> here's another:
> Chicago Electric, Harbor Freight circular blade saw sharpener in use - YouTube


You and Al should open your own saw service with those DIY systems. It could be called Bill and Al saw sharpening. Or, Al and Bill saw sharpening. That's it, for short, it would be A&B Saw sharpening.

You know, I never would have thought about making an arbor bushing out of plywood...how inventive.:laughing:

You could start locally, with just you and Al, and then sell franchises, and go world wide. At first you should start small like below, and offer your clients to do their own blades with your equipment. You could hold classes on DIY saw sharpening, make You Tube videos, and be famous. And to think it all started with a Harbor Freight saw sharpener for less than $100.:thumbsup:
.


























.


----------

