# Staining and sealing - newb questions



## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I've got some 3/4" 'cabinet grade' pine plywood I'm using as a desk top. I'd like to finish this, but am new to the process.

Should I pick up an oil-based stain like this?










2 coats? Then lightly sand?

Then apply a sealant like this lacquer?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> I've got some 3/4" 'cabinet grade' pine plywood I'm using as a desk top. I'd like to finish this, but am new to the process.


Pine plywood is not a 'cabinet grade', or 'furniture grade' plywood. It's a construction grade. It has for its veneered faces a softwood, not a hardwood, like Oak, Maple, etc. 

You could use an oil base stain like the Minwax, but do a test area to see if you get some blotching. If so, make a mix of 50/50 SealCoat, and denatured alcohol, and do a wipe down. When dry, you can apply the stain one time as a wipe on...wipe off after a few minutes. You could use the brushing lacquer, but you have to work fast as it dries very fast. 


















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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> Pine plywood is not a 'cabinet grade', or 'furniture grade' plywood. It's a construction grade. It has for its veneered faces a softwood, not a hardwood, like Oak, Maple, etc.
> 
> You could use an oil base stain like the Minwax, but do a test area to see if you get some blotching. If so, make a mix of 50/50 SealCoat, and denatured alcohol, and do a wipe down. When dry, you can apply the stain one time as a wipe on...wipe off after a few minutes. You could use the brushing lacquer, but you have to work fast as it dries very fast.


Yeah, that's why I used quote marks around 'cabinet grade' - it's how they market it, but clearly not the same as plywood with hardwood veneer.

I'm not wedded to the oil-based stain. Is there another type that you think would be easier to use for this application?

Same for lacquer - I just picked something cheap that I thought might work, but certainly open to suggestions.

I'm also considering your suggestion for a wood-grain laminate.

Ultimately I'd like to do whatever is quickest and easiest, to minimize the time the desk is out of commission, provided that the solution isn't expensive.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Most of the time you get blotching on pine. Most any place that sells stain will sell a wood conditioner you could use. Any wood conditioner whether store bought or homemade is a sealer so you will probably need to use a darker color than if you put the stain on bare wood. With any oil stain you only stain once and wipe the excess off. If you leave stain on the surface it can interere with the adhesion of the topcoat and in your case since you are using a brushing lacquer the solvents in the lacquer would disolve the stain and smear it around. If you have difficulty getting the desired color you can stain the wood first with a dye stain and then use an oil stain. You shouldn't sand the stained wood either. Sanding it will make the color uneven. 

When you get to applying the lacquer you would have better luck if you would start with a lacquer sanding sealer. It's made softer for sanding purposes. You can level the finish with a lot less work and then apply the brushing lacquer. After applying the first coat very lightly sand it with 320 grit paper and then put a second coat of sealer on. The second coat you should be able to do a much better job os sanding. Then it should be ready for the lacquer.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Most of the time you get blotching on pine. Most any place that sells stain will sell a wood conditioner you could use. Any wood conditioner whether store bought or homemade is a sealer so you will probably need to use a darker color than if you put the stain on bare wood. With any oil stain you only stain once and wipe the excess off. If you leave stain on the surface it can interere with the adhesion of the topcoat and in your case since you are using a brushing lacquer the solvents in the lacquer would disolve the stain and smear it around. If you have difficulty getting the desired color you can stain the wood first with a dye stain and then use an oil stain. You shouldn't sand the stained wood either. Sanding it will make the color uneven.
> 
> When you get to applying the lacquer you would have better luck if you would start with a lacquer sanding sealer. It's made softer for sanding purposes. You can level the finish with a lot less work and then apply the brushing lacquer. After applying the first coat very lightly sand it with 320 grit paper and then put a second coat of sealer on. The second coat you should be able to do a much better job os sanding. Then it should be ready for the lacquer.


Sounds like staining pine is a pain. I can get a piece of birch plywood instead since that will skip the need for a wood conditioner and it sounds like staining that would be easier in general.

So with birch, can I apply stain multiple times until I get it dark enough? Is dye stain preferred to oil based stain, or alcohol based stain?

As for sealing, is there a product that would be cheaper to use than getting both sanding sealer and lacquer? Can polyurethane be lightly sanded between coats?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> I'm not wedded to the oil-based stain. Is there another type that you think would be easier to use for this application?
> 
> Same for lacquer - I just picked something cheap that I thought might work, but certainly open to suggestions.
> 
> Ultimately I'd like to do whatever is quickest and easiest, to minimize the time the desk is out of commission, provided that the solution isn't expensive.


Quickest and easiest don't really go together. An oil base stain will give you the most open working time. It's not the quickest, but may be the easiest. You wipe it on, and after a few minutes wipe off the excess. It has a bit longer dry time than dyes. 

As for a topcoat, a wipe on oil base varnish would be easier to apply than a brush on lacquer. You don't need a sanding sealer. While a drawback is the dry time, that process is fairly fool proof. You wouldn't sand the stain, or likely the first or second application of topcoat. 

Like all finishes, do samples and finish to the topcoat to see what the finish will look like before doing the project.


















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> Sounds like staining pine is a pain. I can get a piece of birch plywood instead since that will skip the need for a wood conditioner and it sounds like staining that would be easier in general.
> 
> So with birch, can I apply stain multiple times until I get it dark enough? Is dye stain preferred to oil based stain, or alcohol based stain?
> 
> As for sealing, is there a product that would be cheaper to use than getting both sanding sealer and lacquer? Can polyurethane be lightly sanded between coats?


Birch is more prone to blotch than pine. If you are looking for easy, use oak. 

Never on any wood put multiple coats of stain on. Try your stain on scrap wood first and if it doesn't get dark enough use a darker stain. When you put multiple coats of stain on you end up covering the surface of the wood with stain. Then when you put a finish over the top the finish adheres to the stain instead of the wood and it weeks or months later the finish starts pealing off. Another option if you have the means of spraying is when the stain comes out too light spray a dye stain on. It's more similar to ink so you can put this on it layers and it doesn't affect the adhesion of the finish. In most cases I prefer an oil stain over a dye. Going very light with a color the dyes work fine but darker colors tend to make the wood look more plastic and fake. Many furniture companies use both. They will spray a dye on and then go over it with a oil stain. 

Any finish including polyurethane should be sanded between coats. A finish fuzzes up the grain of the wood and needs to be smoothed. I sand between every coat I put on with 220 grit paper. With a finish like polyurethane it also helps with adhesion. Finishes like lacquer and shellac melt into the previous coat so sanding isn't necessary for adhesion, just for smoothing.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> Quickest and easiest don't really go together. An oil base stain will give you the most open working time. It's not the quickest, but may be the easiest. You wipe it on, and after a few minutes wipe off the excess. It has a bit longer dry time than dyes.
> 
> As for a topcoat, a wipe on oil base varnish would be easier to apply than a brush on lacquer. You don't need a sanding sealer. While a drawback is the dry time, that process is fairly fool proof. You wouldn't sand the stain, or likely the first or second application of topcoat.
> 
> Like all finishes, do samples and finish to the topcoat to see what the finish will look like before doing the project.


What, I can't have quick, easy and inexpensive all at the same time??? :laughing:

I might go with birch plywood, which offers a few benefits:
1. can skip wood conditioner
2. gives me more time since I'll be able to use my existing desk (with pine plywood top) while the birch plywood is finished. So quick finishing takes a back seat to easy.
3. probably looks nicer in the end
4. plus it lets me double up on 3/4" plywood sheets for the desktop (existing pine plywood will become the bottom sheet, with birch sheet on top). Not that I necessarily need to double up, but the extra security isn't hurting anything.

OK, so oil base stain. 

And then oil base varnish. Only lightly sand after maybe second or third layer of varnish?


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Birch is more prone to blotch than pine. If you are looking for easy, use oak.
> 
> Never on any wood put multiple coats of stain on. Try your stain on scrap wood first and if it doesn't get dark enough use a darker stain. When you put multiple coats of stain on you end up covering the surface of the wood with stain. Then when you put a finish over the top the finish adheres to the stain instead of the wood and it weeks or months later the finish starts pealing off. Another option if you have the means of spraying is when the stain comes out too light spray a dye stain on. It's more similar to ink so you can put this on it layers and it doesn't affect the adhesion of the finish. In most cases I prefer an oil stain over a dye. Going very light with a color the dyes work fine but darker colors tend to make the wood look more plastic and fake. Many furniture companies use both. They will spray a dye on and then go over it with a oil stain.
> 
> Any finish including polyurethane should be sanded between coats. A finish fuzzes up the grain of the wood and needs to be smoothed. I sand between every coat I put on with 220 grit paper. With a finish like polyurethane it also helps with adhesion. Finishes like lacquer and shellac melt into the previous coat so sanding isn't necessary for adhesion, just for smoothing.


Thanks, didn't realize birch was so prone to blotching. I can do oak instead.

Thanks for the explanation on staining. I'll have a sample piece or two to test with to make sure the stain is dark enough.

What are the pros/cons of oil base varnish vs polyurethane for indoor desktop use?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

You don't want to sand the stain. If you do lightly sand the first or second application of varnish, be careful not to abrade through the finish and remove any stain.

If you double up on your plywood, you may want to install an edge moulding (trim piece) to cover the two layers.


















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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> You don't want to sand the stain. If you do lightly sand the first or second application of varnish, be careful not to abrade through the finish and remove any stain.
> 
> If you double up on your plywood, you may want to install an edge moulding (trim piece) to cover the two layers.


Yep, this discussion has made it clear that stain isn't to be sanded.

Yeah, I figured I'd need some kind of edge treatment (iron-on banding or glued/nailed on wood trim) would be necessary whether I doubled up the plywood sheets or not.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> Thanks, didn't realize birch was so prone to blotching. I can do oak instead.
> 
> Thanks for the explanation on staining. I'll have a sample piece or two to test with to make sure the stain is dark enough.
> 
> What are the pros/cons of oil base varnish vs polyurethane for indoor desktop use?


 Yes oak is a whole lot easier to finish. As long as it is reasonably sanded ready to finish it's about the easiest wood to finish. 

There isn't a great difference between a oil based varnish and polyurethane. Polyurethane is oil based varnish with some urethane resin added to it. The urethane resin just makes the finish a little harder.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Picked up some supplies. Am I missing anything?

- MinWax pre-stain conditioner (even if I go oak, I still have some other pine ply I'd like to stain)
- MinWax WoodFinish stain, oil base
- MinWax polyurethane, oil base
- paint stick stirrers
- mineral spirits
- lightweight sanding block
- 220 grit sandpaper
- paint brush 'for oil paints and varnishes', 3" wide
- tack cloth


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> Picked up some supplies. Am I missing anything?
> 
> - MinWax pre-stain conditioner (even if I go oak, I still have some other pine ply I'd like to stain)
> - MinWax WoodFinish stain, oil base
> ...


I don't think there is any of us here that are professionals that like tack cloths. If you're not real careful the goo off the tack cloth comes off onto the wood and gets into the finish making a spot that has to be picked out. The only thing you might be missing is rags. If the polyurethane is a satin it's usually a good idea to start the finish with gloss polyurethane and use satin last. The stuff they put in satin polyurethane tends to make the finish cloudy with multiple coats. If your sandpaper is a stearated paper (white) it's not recommended to use with polyurethane.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't think there is any of us here that are professionals that like tack cloths. If you're not real careful the goo off the tack cloth comes off onto the wood and gets into the finish making a spot that has to be picked out. The only thing you might be missing is rags. If the polyurethane is a satin it's usually a good idea to start the finish with gloss polyurethane and use satin last. The stuff they put in satin polyurethane tends to make the finish cloudy with multiple coats. If your sandpaper is a stearated paper (white) it's not recommended to use with polyurethane.


Thanks, I appreciate the tips.

I'll return the tack cloth. What would you suggest for removing the fine dust left over from sanding?

OK, I'll pick up some gloss polyurethane. If I want multiple coats of polyurethane for a more durable finish, should I do one coat of gloss followed by 2-3 coats of satin, or 2-3 coats of gloss followed by one coat of satin?

The sandpaper I was going to use is this stuff, which is aluminum oxide. Is this good for sanding polyurethane?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> Thanks, I appreciate the tips.
> 
> I'll return the tack cloth. What would you suggest for removing the fine dust left over from sanding?


Using a vacuum would remove dust. Have a good filter so the exhaust doesn't blow debris.



needmorecoffee said:


> OK, I'll pick up some gloss polyurethane. If I want multiple coats of polyurethane for a more durable finish, should I do one coat of gloss followed by 2-3 coats of satin, or 2-3 coats of gloss followed by one coat of satin?


If you wwant a satin finish, do your build up applications with gloss, and the final coat with satin.



needmorecoffee said:


> The sandpaper I was going to use is this stuff, which is aluminum oxide. Is this good for sanding polyurethane?


I like using a silicon carbide sandpaper intended for dry use called...'No-Fil', or 'Fre-Cut', it's a light gray.

















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> Thanks, I appreciate the tips.
> 
> I'll return the tack cloth. What would you suggest for removing the fine dust left over from sanding?
> 
> ...


I use compressed air and a bench brush to clean sanding dust off before finishing. If compressed air isn't available I would just use a clean cloth. It isn't necessary to get every grain off, any that is left would be picked up when you wipe the stain off. Then for between the coats sanding it wipes off easier and most of what is in the dust is the finish which the dust would suspend in the finish. For the most part the foreign material in the dust that is bad is the grit that comes off the sandpaper you are sanding with. It doesn't amount to very much. I've never actually seen any sanding grit suspended in a finish. 

The thing about a satin finish is the flattening agent which cuts the shine. It's a powder which looks like baby powder that is mixed into the finish. The more coats of satin you put on the more of this powder is in the finish and the thicker you go with it the more cloudy the finish looks. This is why it's better to start the finish with gloss which is clear for the first 2-3 coats and then put a single coat of satin over the top. This retains as much clarity as possible and still provides a satin appearance. The flattening agents also makes the finish less water resistant so it just makes a better finish to put gloss under the final finish.


The sandpaper you have listed in post 15 will work fine for you. I wouldn't use drywall screens in wood finishing


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> I like using a silicon carbide sandpaper intended for dry use called...'No-Fil', or 'Fre-Cut', it's a light gray.


The only silicon carbide sandpaper I'm seeing in 220 grit at my local Lowes is this stuff: Gator 5-Pack 220-Grit 4-1/4-in W x 11-1/4-in L Precut Drywall Sanding Screen Sandpaper


Is that what you're referring to?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> The only silicon carbide sandpaper I'm seeing in 220 grit at my local Lowes is this stuff: Gator 5-Pack 220-Grit 4-1/4-in W x 11-1/4-in L Precut Drywall Sanding Screen Sandpaper
> 
> 
> Is that what you're referring to?


I didn't mention that. This is what I'm suggesting.

http://www.sears.com/3m-88620na-320...1666&cpncode=33-315208653-2&redirectType=SRDT


















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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If you use compressed air to blow off a workpiece, dust will go all over. If you are going to do finishing in the same area you don't want to create air turbulance in the area. 


















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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I stained a couple of test pieces of pine plywood (this stuff) with Minwax wood finish Red Mahogany stain (oil base).



For both pieces, I sanded with some 180 grit, then 220 grit (wow, that 220 makes it as smooth as a baby's skin!). On both, I applied some Minwax pre-stain conditioner. For the piece on the right, I applied it quite liberally, and let it sit for 15 minutes before wiping off excess. The piece on the left, I applied less conditioner and wiped it off after maybe 5 minutes. 

Obviously the stain was absorbed more evenly in the piece on the right. But I would like it to be a bit darker. Will another, coat of stain after the first coat dries, make a difference? Or are the wood pores filled up with conditioner and stain at this point?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Once wood is stained it is pretty well set. It doesn't really help and it's a bad idea to put additional coats of oil stain on. If the color isn't dark enough you need to use a darker stain or suppliment the color with dyes. A dye is more similar to ink so you can lay it over stained wood without causing an adhesion problem. Just for fun stain some scrap wood with a very light stain and then try to stain the wood with your mahogany stain. It will come out lighter than using the wood conditioner. 

With most any brand of oil stain you can add more pigment to the stain to darken it. Minwax stain you can't. All you can do is intermix it with other colors of Minwax stain. The only color you can add to Minwax stain and it doesn't do very good is aniline dye powders. Once mixed it has to be stirred every couple minutes. It's much easier to use the oil stain and dye in two seperate steps.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Once wood is stained it is pretty well set. It doesn't really help and it's a bad idea to put additional coats of oil stain on. If the color isn't dark enough you need to use a darker stain or suppliment the color with dyes. A dye is more similar to ink so you can lay it over stained wood without causing an adhesion problem.


A dye sounds like too much extra work for my purposes (plus I don't have a sprayer or a space to operate one), but it's good to know about.



Steve Neul said:


> Just for fun stain some scrap wood with a very light stain and then try to stain the wood with your mahogany stain. It will come out lighter than using the wood conditioner.


Because the light stain would saturate the pores even more than a wood conditioner does, correct?

I guess I could go lighter/quicker on the conditioner, though not quite as light/quick as I did on the board on the left, which did get darker, but also got a little blotchy.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> A dye sounds like too much extra work for my purposes (plus I don't have a sprayer or a space to operate one), but it's good to know about.
> 
> Because the light stain would saturate the pores even more than a wood conditioner does, correct?
> 
> I guess I could go lighter/quicker on the conditioner, though not quite as light/quick as I did on the board on the left, which did get darker, but also got a little blotchy.


Yes the first coat of stain pretty much sets the color making additional coats useless. 

If you go lighter or quicker on the conditioner you are likely to go more blotchy. 

There is another option. You would have to practice this quite a bit but the dyes can be mopped on with a rag. You would need to thin it a bit more and work fast but it could be done. Doing it this way it would work better to stain the wood first with the dye and then use the oil stain. The idea is to get it dark enough with the dye and then use the oil stain to give it some warmth. Also doing it this way you could omit the wood conditioner. Dyes stain more uniform than oil stains. The dye would also set the color so it shouldn't blotch with the oil stain going over it. Just be sure to wear chemical gloves mopping the dye or it will stain your hands where it will have to wear off.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

These are the two test pieces from before. I have since applied 3 coats of clear gloss. I noticed while applying polyurethane that there were bumps on the surface, almost like tiny air bubbles being trapped under the polyurethane. After the third coat, I tried sanding the piece on the left with 220 grit and immediately noticed whitish spots forming. The piece on the right has not been sanded, but has those bumps that I'm guessing are either trapped air bubbles or unevenness in the texture of the wood created by the act of staining or coating, because this was smooth after I had sanded it with 220 prior to staining.

What's going on here?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> These are the two test pieces from before. I have since applied 3 coats of clear gloss. I noticed while applying polyurethane that there were bumps on the surface, almost like tiny air bubbles being trapped under the polyurethane. After the third coat, I tried sanding the piece on the left with 220 grit and immediately noticed whitish spots forming. The piece on the right has not been sanded, but has those bumps that I'm guessing are either trapped air bubbles or unevenness in the texture of the wood created by the act of staining or coating, because this was smooth after I had sanded it with 220 prior to staining.
> 
> What's going on here?


I think part of the problem you are having is the wood doesn't look like it's sanded enough. This creates voids in the finish. Bubbles are normally caused by the finish not being thinned enough or brushing it too much. The white spots after sanding could be dust settling in the voids in the wood or perhaps voids from the bubbles. You should be able to clean that off with compressed air or a rag damp with mineral spirits.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I think part of the problem you are having is the wood doesn't look like it's sanded enough. This creates voids in the finish.


Meaning the initial pre-stain sanding? I used 180, then 220, but I did go fairly lightly because I was worried I'd take too much of the veneer off. It felt smooth to my (inexperienced) touch.



Steve Neul said:


> Bubbles are normally caused by the finish not being thinned enough or brushing it too much.


I applied the stain with a natural bristle brush. The polyurethane was applied with foam brushes. I did find it was very easy to put a lot of polyurethane on with those foam brushes. So maybe I need to be careful about applying a much thinner coat.



Steve Neul said:


> The white spots after sanding could be dust settling in the voids in the wood or perhaps voids from the bubbles. You should be able to clean that off with compressed air or a rag damp with mineral spirits.


I took the pic after running a vacuum over it, so I don't think it's dust. Would mineral spirits remove the polyurethane?

Would sanding down further help, followed by thinner coats of poly?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's hard to say about the sanding. Some plywood you can do quite a bit of sanding and other plywood you can sand through it just thinking about it. If there is enough veneer starting with 100 grit might be a better choice. I can just see the texture of the wood in the pictures. The bottom line is if there is any texture to the wood it can hold dust where it is difficult to get out. If possible it's better to correct this with sanding rather than a thicker finish. With polyurethane it's important to get this dust off before you put another coat on. Sometimes polyurethane will just finish over the dust if there is enough. Mineral spirits won't hurt a dried finish. You will just need to dry it with a clean cloth or allow enough time for it to evaporate before applying another coat. I've heard many people say they have had good luck with foam brushes but I haven't. I quit using them because the caused bubbles for me. If you are going to use a brush I would use as soft a brush as you can find and apply it as thin as possible with as few brush strokes as possible. The more you brush it the faster it sets up and enhances brush marks. Really the best way to finish wood by hand is with a wipe on polyurethane. It takes more coats but the results are usually smoother. Sanding the finish down farther will more likely result in sanding through the finish taking the color off. Then the easiest fix would be to strip the finish off with chemicals and start over. It's a gamble and usually not worth it.


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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> It's hard to say about the sanding. Some plywood you can do quite a bit of sanding and other plywood you can sand through it just thinking about it. If there is enough veneer starting with 100 grit might be a better choice. I can just see the texture of the wood in the pictures. The bottom line is if there is any texture to the wood it can hold dust where it is difficult to get out. If possible it's better to correct this with sanding rather than a thicker finish. With polyurethane it's important to get this dust off before you put another coat on. Sometimes polyurethane will just finish over the dust if there is enough. Mineral spirits won't hurt a dried finish. You will just need to dry it with a clean cloth or allow enough time for it to evaporate before applying another coat. I've heard many people say they have had good luck with foam brushes but I haven't. I quit using them because the caused bubbles for me. If you are going to use a brush I would use as soft a brush as you can find and apply it as thin as possible with as few brush strokes as possible. The more you brush it the faster it sets up and enhances brush marks. Really the best way to finish wood by hand is with a wipe on polyurethane. It takes more coats but the results are usually smoother. Sanding the finish down farther will more likely result in sanding through the finish taking the color off. Then the easiest fix would be to strip the finish off with chemicals and start over. It's a gamble and usually not worth it.


I see you have a lot going on! So many opinions, I'm sure your head is spinning!

First, I have never had any issues putting multiple coats of stain on. In fact, I use multiple coats of various colors to add depth. The key is letting the stain dry long enough between coats. But, make sure you use a sealant between coats.

Second, you should NEVER sand Oak with anything higher than 180 grit if you are looking for a deeper color. The higher the grit, the less absorption rate of stain.

Third, you should ALWAYS use prestain conditioner to prevent blotchiness. Even on oak. Be careful to pay attention to the type of conditioner you buy. They sell conditioner for both oil and water based. This will effect the absorption rate. If you use an alcohol based stain or dye, burnish the wood with a plain piece of paper. This will close some of the pores. I always use a mixture of 50% dewaxed shellac and 50% denatured alcohol mix instead of the store bought stuff. Wipe on a very thin coat. This method is 100% blotch proof.

Fourth, your top coat issues are caused for several reasons. It appears you put to many coats on w/o sanding in between. This is causing adhesion issues. Brush on lacquer needs to be mechanically binded. The scratch marks of the sandpaper creates this bind. Also, you may be brushing more than 3 mils thick of finish. If each coat is too thick, the air bubbles can't escape. And, you need to cut brush on lacquer with thinner. Start with an 80/20 mix. Work your way down after each coat. (85/15, 90/10 etc...)

Last, there is no quick way to get a finished product that you will be happy with. Take your time. Let the product do what it is supposed to do. 

I have several other comments but will hold off unless asked.


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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

Steve Neul said:


> It's hard to say about the sanding. Some plywood you can do quite a bit of sanding and other plywood you can sand through it just thinking about it. If there is enough veneer starting with 100 grit might be a better choice. I can just see the texture of the wood in the pictures. The bottom line is if there is any texture to the wood it can hold dust where it is difficult to get out. If possible it's better to correct this with sanding rather than a thicker finish. With polyurethane it's important to get this dust off before you put another coat on. Sometimes polyurethane will just finish over the dust if there is enough. Mineral spirits won't hurt a dried finish. You will just need to dry it with a clean cloth or allow enough time for it to evaporate before applying another coat. I've heard many people say they have had good luck with foam brushes but I haven't. I quit using them because the caused bubbles for me. If you are going to use a brush I would use as soft a brush as you can find and apply it as thin as possible with as few brush strokes as possible. The more you brush it the faster it sets up and enhances brush marks. Really the best way to finish wood by hand is with a wipe on polyurethane. It takes more coats but the results are usually smoother. Sanding the finish down farther will more likely result in sanding through the finish taking the color off. Then the easiest fix would be to strip the finish off with chemicals and start over. It's a gamble and usually not worth it.


BTW, Steve's comments are correct too!


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I sanded the piece down some more. This pic was taken after vacuuming.



Wiped it down with some mineral spirits:



But as the mineral spirits are evaporating, the whitish appearance is returning, so I assume this is not dust?


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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

Again, you applied too many coats with out sanding in between coats creating the obvious valleys. You are still ok though, it will take a bit more work. Your next coat will make the white disappear. My suggestion is to continue adding coats but sand a bit more vigorously between coats. Make sure the coats cure for at least 24 hours before sanding. You will eventually remove the valleys. After a few additional coats and sanding between, start laying down thin coats of lacquer. (I hope you are using a natural bristle brush??? Don't use a foam brush with brush on lacquer or you will never fill in the valleys.) Instead of sandpaper, use 0000 steel wool to rub out. Then, rub out with buffing compound. Honestly, you have several days ahead of you. Be patient!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

What the boards looked like wet with mineral spirits is what it would look like with another coat of finish on it. Since the white is dissappearing it is just normal scuffing of the finish with the sandpaper. It's like you took a sheet of plexi-glass and sanded it. It would have a milkish look to it. The only thing unusual you have is such distinct high and low places in the plywood you have. The third picture shows a crack in the veneer about the center. If that was a real project that should have been filled with wood putty and sanded before staining and finishing.

If you kept going with the finish you could level the high and low places of the plywood but it would take a bunch of coats with sanding between. I don't think you need to do any more with these practice pieces. If you have any more scraps of this plywood I would try sanding the wood more and see if you can get the ridges out and then test the finish. I think the texture of the wood you have is your biggest problem.


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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

needmorecoffee said:


> I sanded the piece down some more. This pic was taken after vacuuming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are test boards??? I missed this detail. Ok then. Now that you have a feel for applying the top coat, which is the hardest step, follow these principles and you'll be fine .

Sand with 150 grit if it is Oak.

Wipe down with lacquer thinner.

Apply an oil based pre-stain conditioner. Rag or brush it on.

Apply your oil based stain. Don't be afraid to work in the stain using various motions, you want to get the stain in the pores. (Remember that it only matters going in the direction of the grain when removing the stain.)

You are using an oil based stain, so you have time to let the stain soak in. Watch the clock when applying the stain and let it soak in for about 10 minutes.

Remove the stain in direction of grain. Don't be afraid to apply pressure when removing the stain. They key is to get all of the excess off. (You may want to put another coat on later so all of the stain that sits on top has to be removed. Oil based stain contains pigment that can sometimes sit on top of the wood)

Let the stain dry for at least 8 hours. Evaluate the color. If you want it darker, put another coat on. This time, when removing, don 't be so aggressive. Let the stain dry for 8 hours.

Wipe residue off.

This is important, go to your local lowes or Home Depot and buy spray shellac. (I'm assuming you don't have a spray gun??) Spray one coat of this. It will seal the stain. Sealing the stain is important since you are going to use a brush lacquer. If the stain is not sealed, you could remove some of the stain when brushing on your first coat. The seal coat will also prevent the stain from bleeding into your top coat.

Brush on your lacquer thinner in thin coats. Cut the lacquer with thinner- 80/20. I would use paint thinner or mineral spirits, it will give you more working time . And, use a natural bristle brush. Do not use a foam brush for brush on lacquer.

Apply several coats sanding very lightly between coats. Be careful of edges and don 't sand through . After a bit , you can use 0000 steel wool between coats. Thin to win !

Good luck!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

todpierce1 said:


> I see you have a lot going on! So many opinions, I'm sure your head is spinning!
> 
> First, I have never had any issues putting multiple coats of stain on. In fact, I use multiple coats of various colors to add depth. The key is letting the stain dry long enough between coats. But, make sure you use a sealant between coats.


You might make clear what stain you are talking about. If its an alcohol or water based dye, you can apply more than one application when the preceding one has cured. This can be done to increase the intensity or color values.

If its an oil base stain the first application will do a fair job of sealing the wood. Adding subsequent coats will likely have adhesion problems. If planning to use a shellac in between applications, you no longer have a wood surface to work with.

You can deepen/darken a stain if a dye is used first and then an oil base stain applied after.



todpierce1 said:


> Second, you should NEVER sand Oak with anything higher than 180 grit if you are looking for a deeper color. The higher the grit, the less absorption rate of stain.
> 
> *Third, you should ALWAYS use prestain conditioner to prevent blotchiness. Even on oak. Be careful to pay attention to the type of conditioner you buy. *


I don't agree. I can't remember ever having to condition Oak. It's a very easy species to finish.


















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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Hmmm...I thought the OP had decided on oak veneer plywood.

Here is a podium I made for a friend. I used Min Wax Wood Conditioner, then applied Minwax Red Mahogany 225 (one coat brushed on, wiped off). Several coats of Deft Clear Wood Finish (Satin) sprayed on (sanding lightly between coats).

Hope this helps.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the info. 

Some observations:
1. Yes, I can see now that I didn't sand the wood smooth enough before staining; and that I'd need to use wood putty to prep the wood before sanding and staining.

2. I can also see that I should have been sanding between coats of polyurethane rather than applying a few coats before sanding

3. Haha, yeah, I figured out that the whitish appearance is simply sanded polyurethane (told ya I'm a newb!)

4. I was definitely applying the polyurethane way too thickly. I switched from a foam brush to a natural bristle paintbrush and it's much easier to apply thin coats. This has made a huge difference in the number and size of bubbles. The coat appears much more smooth now. Still has some unevenness, but as Steve notes, that's from the wood not being sanded smooth enough before staining.


In terms of finishing materials, I'd like to stick with what I have (clear gloss and clear satin polyurethane) rather than purchase lacquer. As far as stain, I'm using an oil base stain after application of pre-stain conditioner, so I think the wood is pretty well sealed between those two coats. Instead of a paintbrush to apply the stain, next time, I'll try using a rag - that might help to really work the stain in. 

My process is pre-stain conditioner, one coat stain, few coats gloss poly with sanding between each, one coat satin poly, drink beer.

I'd like to finish these test pieces with satin polyurethane just so I get a sense of how the actual project piece will look after a coat of the satin. I assume I should be sanding the last coat of gloss poly before applying the one and only coat of satin poly, in order to give that final coat a surface to adhere to?


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

needmorecoffee said:


> I'd like to finish these test pieces with satin polyurethane just so I get a sense of how the actual project piece will look after a coat of the satin. I assume I should be sanding the last coat of gloss poly before applying the one and only coat of satin poly, in order to give that final coat a surface to adhere to?


So I sanded after the last coat of gloss poly and applied a thin coat of satin poly. That really took the glossy shine off. Is it me, or does the satin polyurethane, once dried, feel not as slick/slippery as the gloss?

After seeing the goop that settles in the bottom of the satin poly can, I can see how multiple coats of this stuff would cloud the finish!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

The satin poly and the gloss poly are the same finish but the satin has a powdered flattening agent added to it. The powder floats to the surface as it dries and is why the surface doesn't feel as slick and plastic as the gloss. The powder is also what makes the finish look cloudy with multiple coats. Also because it has this powder at the surface it make satin less water resistant than gloss.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> The satin poly and the gloss poly are the same finish but the satin has a powdered flattening agent added to it. The powder floats to the surface as it dries and is why the surface doesn't feel as slick and plastic as the gloss. The powder is also what makes the finish look cloudy with multiple coats. Also because it has this powder at the surface it make satin less water resistant than gloss.


And semi-gloss just has less of the flattening agent?

Hmmm, I'm wondering if semi-gloss would be a better choice than satin for a desk top (I'm thinking of the water resistance aspect as I'll surely spill drinks on it over time)? Or maybe the satin is fine because I'll be applying multiple layers of clear gloss topped by only one layer of satin?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> And semi-gloss just has less of the flattening agent?
> 
> Hmmm, I'm wondering if semi-gloss would be a better choice than satin for a desk top (I'm thinking of the water resistance aspect as I'll surely spill drinks on it over time)? Or maybe the satin is fine because I'll be applying multiple layers of clear gloss topped by only one layer of satin?


You would likely not notice the difference between satin and semi-gloss...if its available as such.


















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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

cabinetman said:


> You might make clear what stain you are talking about. If its an alcohol or water based dye, you can apply more than one application when the preceding one has cured. This can be done to increase the intensity or color values. If its an oil base stain the first application will do a fair job of sealing the wood. Adding subsequent coats will likely have adhesion problems. If planning to use a shellac in between applications, you no longer have a wood surface to work with. You can deepen/darken a stain if a dye is used first and then an oil base stain applied after. I don't agree. I can't remember ever having to condition Oak. It's a very easy species to finish. .


The beauty of finishing wood is that there are numerous ways to finish it. Different strokes for different folks.

However, you use stain and dye in the same sentence. Let's not confuse the original poster as the two of them are completely different- in use, application and make up. I won 't bore the poster by getting into detail. 

Not sure I have ever heard of adhesion problems using two or three coats of oil based stain if allowed to cure appropriately??? I'm sure the manufactures of gel stain would fall off of their horses hearing such a claim. If gel stain doesn't cause concern for adhesion issues, then two or three coats of oil based stain certainly wouldn't. (Original poster - as an FYI, gel stain sits entirely on top of the wood with very little penetration)

Also, the best refinishers and decorative finishers in the world use shellac (both waxed and de-waxed) as a wash coat (sealer) between finishes. It allows you to do many different and additional techniques. I understand your comment and/or concern, it's just not true.

Last, it is always good practice to use a pre-stain conditioner. And yes, even on oak. I agree Oak is one of the easiest to finish without blotchiness. But I say to always use pre-conditioner for several reasons. I won't go into detail but I've seen a lot of poor finishing jobs that could have turned out better if they would have pre-conditioned oak. I guess it surprises me why you would suggest not to do so since it doesn't hurt to do so? An added insurance for a possible good job is bad?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

todpierce1 said:


> The beauty of finishing wood is that there are numerous ways to finish it. Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> However, you use stain and dye in the same sentence. Let's not confuse the original poster as the two of them are completely different- in use, application and make up. I won 't bore the poster by getting into detail.
> 
> ...


You make a lot of claims, but don't want to go into detail. You can say whatever you want, as that's your right of opinion...I just don't agree with you.


















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## tpierce (Oct 14, 2013)

cabinetman said:


> You make a lot of claims, but don't want to go into detail. You can say whatever you want, as that's your right of opinion...I just don't agree with you. .


A quick bit of research by the poster will show what the difference is between dye and pigmented stain and what pigmented stain can and can 't do and what dye can and can't do. Not hiding behind not sharing details- the info is out there. I'm positive you know the difference , the poster may not.

The reason to always pre -condition oak is the poster doesn't know where the lumber came from- growing conditions causing different growing elements and growth rate of tree. Not all wood projects come from the same tree. Pre-conditioning can help mask some imperfect sanding. And, pre-conditioning can help staining end grain a bit more evenly.

No big secrets. I learned to always use caution when finishing/refinishing. I've been bitten in the rear end my fair share of times and have seen others bitten too. Didn't want that to happen.

You're right... We just disagree... No biggie.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I was using this brush to apply clear gloss polyurethane, then dipped in mineral spirits to clean, allowed to dry for a few hours and then used the brush to apply clear satin polyurethane. Dipped in mineral spirits to clean and left to dry overnight. 

Once dried, the brush was very stiff. So stiff, that I had to grab small bunches of bristles and bend them to soften the brush up even a little bit.

Where did I go wrong?

Is this brush salvageable?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> I was using this brush to apply clear gloss polyurethane, then dipped in mineral spirits to clean, allowed to dry for a few hours and then used the brush to apply clear satin polyurethane. Dipped in mineral spirits to clean and left to dry overnight.
> 
> Once dried, the brush was very stiff. So stiff, that I had to grab small bunches of bristles and bend them to soften the brush up even a little bit.
> 
> ...


That's a cheap brush, that IMO, shouldn't have been used...especially for both poly coatings. Wiping the poly on with lint free tee shirt cloths folded in a neat pad lays down a smoother applicatiion than brushing.


















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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> That's a cheap brush, that IMO, shouldn't have been used...especially for both poly coatings. Wiping the poly on with lint free tee shirt cloths folded in a neat pad lays down a smoother applicatiion than brushing.


Thanks. I switched to rags for applying poly. Using rags for both the stain and the poly has been much easier than using either foam brushes or paint brushes. :thumbsup:


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## celtic87 (Jul 29, 2014)

Hello, new to woodworking and such so this may be a simple and over asked question, but I am having issues staining a pine (I think) crib. Have been told I must use water based as babies chew on things. The crib was stained a light honey color and poly'd. I sanded by both palm sander and by hand with varying grits. Want to stain dark walnut, applied first coat or min wax water based stain (not polyshade). It came out very light. Let it dry for about 5 mine after wiping and applied a second coat with very little change in darkness. Any suggestions to darken this up quickly?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

celtic87 said:


> Hello, new to woodworking and such so this may be a simple and over asked question, but I am having issues staining a pine (I think) crib. Have been told I must use water based as babies chew on things. The crib was stained a light honey color and poly'd. I sanded by both palm sander and by hand with varying grits. Want to stain dark walnut, applied first coat or min wax water based stain (not polyshade). It came out very light. Let it dry for about 5 mine after wiping and applied a second coat with very little change in darkness. Any suggestions to darken this up quickly?


All modern finishes are child safe once cured. The only benefit you would get from using water based is the offgassing of the fumes with oil based which might take as much as a month. If the crib isn't going to be used for a month you would be alright with any finish. The stain wouldn't matter, it's just the topcoat. 

With pine, especially with a dark walnut you should use a wood conditioner to keep it from getting blotchy. When you stain, stain only once. Multiple coats of stain won't really darken the wood unless some dried on the surface. If some stain dries on the surface then when you put a topcoat over it the topcoat will adhere to the stain instead of the wood and peal off. If there is any need to suppliment the color you can use a dye stain over the oil stain. I use Mohawk Finishing Products Ultra Penetrating Stain.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> I was using this brush to apply clear gloss polyurethane, then dipped in mineral spirits to clean, allowed to dry for a few hours and then used the brush to apply clear satin polyurethane. Dipped in mineral spirits to clean and left to dry overnight.
> 
> Once dried, the brush was very stiff. So stiff, that I had to grab small bunches of bristles and bend them to soften the brush up even a little bit.
> 
> ...


That brush wasn't very good however there are inexpensive brushes that work well. Just look for one that is very soft to touch. A badger brush is generally a better brush for polyurethane. 

Washing the brush with mineral spirits only gets the majority of the polyurethane off the brush. Had you followed by washing with lacquer thinner it would have been as soft as when it was new. Even in the condition the brush is in now it can be soaked free in lacquer thinner.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> That brush wasn't very good however there are inexpensive brushes that work well. Just look for one that is very soft to touch. A badger brush is generally a better brush for polyurethane.
> 
> Washing the brush with mineral spirits only gets the majority of the polyurethane off the brush. Had you followed by washing with lacquer thinner it would have been as soft as when it was new. Even in the condition the brush is in now it can be soaked free in lacquer thinner.


Thanks, I might pick up some lacquer thinner to salvage the brushes for future use. But I'm glad I switched to rags for stain and topcoat.

How long should I wait after the final coat of poly before regular use?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> But I'm glad I switched to rags for stain and topcoat.
> 
> How long should I wait after the final coat of poly before regular use?


Rags/cloths will produce your smoothest finish. It's an easier method for application. I think you'll be pleased. It might take two or more weeks for an oil base to stop off gassing and cure.


















.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> Rags/cloths will produce your smoothest finish. It's an easier method for application. I think you'll be pleased. It might take two or more weeks for an oil base to stop off gassing and cure.


So does that mean it shouldn't be used for that long?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> So does that mean it shouldn't be used for that long?


If you can wait...wait.








 







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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> If you can wait...wait.


If I wait 2 days, then mount tools to it, e.g., a vise, will it stick to the poly and possible rip off some of the topcoat when I remove the tool?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> If I wait 2 days, then mount tools to it, e.g., a vise, will it stick to the poly and possible rip off some of the topcoat when I remove the tool?


I wouldn't use it until it cures.








 







.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> Thanks, I might pick up some lacquer thinner to salvage the brushes for future use. But I'm glad I switched to rags for stain and topcoat.
> 
> How long should I wait after the final coat of poly before regular use?


If the poly smell doesn't bother you, you can use the desk after it dries overnight. The odor will just gradually dissipate over a couple of weeks. Depending on the brand poly you use the odor is hardly noticable after a couple days.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> If the poly smell doesn't bother you, you can use the desk after it dries overnight. The odor will just gradually dissipate over a couple of weeks. Depending on the brand poly you use the odor is hardly noticable after a couple days.


I'm using Minwax oil-based poly. This stuff:









I haven't even gotten to the desk top - saving that for last. I had a bunch of other pieces I wanted to stain. I can leave most of them to fully cure, but one that I would prefer to use sooner is a top for my workbench. By tomorrow (Wed) evening, it will have been 48 hours since the last coat of poly, so the odor doesn't bother me; plus I keep my windows open a lot in the summer.

I just don't want to start mounting tools (e.g., a vise) to it if that's going to screw up the finish because it isn't fully cured.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> I'm using Minwax oil-based poly. This stuff:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It may feel dry to the touch, but IMO, not ready to use as you intend. It will be very easy to SCREW IT UP.



















.


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## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

needmorecoffee said:


> I'm using Minwax oil-based poly. This stuff:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The finish will be hard enough for general use but won't reach it full hardness for a month. The difference is so slight I don't think you could tell it. For the first month just be as gentle with it as possible and I don't think you will have a problem.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I've got a couple of 2x4 pieces to stain. This is pretty cheap 2x4 - I think it cost ~$3 for ~10ft. Should this stuff be treated with pre-stain conditioner before stain?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> I've got a couple of 2x4 pieces to stain. This is pretty cheap 2x4 - I think it cost ~$3 for ~10ft. Should this stuff be treated with pre-stain conditioner before stain?


I normally sheetrock over 2x4's :laughing: but yes if you are going to stain southern pine or SPF 2x4's it will blotch if you don't use a pre-stain conditioner. 2x4's are normally pretty rough so I hope you thoroughly sand them first.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

needmorecoffee said:


> I've got a couple of 2x4 pieces to stain. This is pretty cheap 2x4 - I think it cost ~$3 for ~10ft. Should this stuff be treated with pre-stain conditioner before stain?


If you're using them in your project they should be sanded to at least 180x-220x. Test your conditioner on a sample first.


















.


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## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

The wood in 2x4's are good to work with. It is just milled a bit rough because it is intended for studs. As long as you sand them well they should finish as well as any other pine. Pine is also one of the woods prone to blotch so I would use a pre-stain conditioner. Conditioners are a sealer so you might have to use a darker stain than you think to achieve the color you want. You might have a darker stain standing by. Sometimes small samples look different than the project. If you stain the 2x4's and they are too light you can go over it with the darker stain immediately while the first stain is wet and it will go a little darker. You should only stain the one time. If you put multiple coats of stain on it can cause adhesion problems with the finish.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

I got a piece of 3/4" red oak plywood (the stuff you get at the big box store for $50 for a 4'x8' sheet). Did a little testing on a piece - on half the test board, I sanded using 220 grit, pressing firmly and for a lot of strokes; on the other half, I used worn 220 grit and only sanded for maybe 10% as many strokes.

Both halves were then subdivided in 2 to see the difference between pre-stain being applied and excess wiped off after 1-2 min vs sitting for 15 min before excess wiped off. Stain applied and wiped off after 15 min for the entire test board.

So 4 sections total:
1. 'heavy' sanding with 220 + brief pre-stain
2. 'heavy' sanding with 220 + long pre-stain
3. 'light' sanding with 220 + brief pre-stain
4. 'light' sanding with 220 + long pre-stain

Result (to blow up, click on pic, then click on magnifying glass in lower right corner, and then repeat on the resulting image):


Essentially no difference! I guess the first thing I noticed is that I didn't sand down far enough. I was thinking that with a pre-sanded sheet, more than 220 grit would risk going through the veneer. Maybe a light sanding with 100 grit followed by 220 is the way to go?

It also seemed to make no difference whether the pre-stain was wiped off quickly (1-2 min after application) or allowed to sit for 15 min. The piece didn't come out as dark as I had hoped it would. I wish I had done a section without any pre-stain to see how that would look.

The iron-on edge banding on the front edge in the pic was also subdivided into the same 4 sections, with the same result: no obvious differences after staining.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I assume from your comments you are unhappy with the dark streaks from the soft part of the grain. The most effective way to get a more uniform color is to spray a dye stain. To achieve similar results with an oil stain you could thin the stain with linseed oil and mineral spirits and stain the wood first with that and after it dried stain with the stain full strength.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> I assume from your comments you are unhappy with the dark streaks from the soft part of the grain.


No, I was unhappy with:
1. if you blow up the image, within those dark streaks, there are tiny light streaks. I assume this is due to insufficient sanding.

2. overall I wish the board came out a little darker (the pic makes the board look darker than it is)


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

needmorecoffee said:


> No, I was unhappy with:
> 1. if you blow up the image, within those dark streaks, there are tiny light streaks. I assume this is due to insufficient sanding.
> 
> 2. overall I wish the board came out a little darker (the pic makes the board look darker than it is)


The light streaks is just hard parts of the grain and is normal and nothing you could have done by sanding or conditioning the wood would have made a difference. 

If it were me I would spray a extra dark walnut dye stain over the top of what you have. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=178 It would tend to darken the light parts of the wood and not really add anything to the dark areas. Spraying a dye on a project is tricky. You have to spray a uniform coat on the entire project. It dries so fast you shouldn't look at it while you are applying it. You will end up with places that look like it needs some more and doesn't so if you start looking at it dry you will end up spraying too much. The nice part about it is you can go ahead and seal the wood and if there is places that really need more you can spray the dye between coats of finish. 

You might also try a gel stain. I don't use those so I can't recommend one. A gel stain is more or less thinned paint which will cover up the wood.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

If I didn't apply pre-stain, I guess I could expect that overall more stain would be absorbed, resulting in an overall darker appearance, even though the light streaks wouldn't be affected? Does this risk blotching, even in oak?

I'm doing this on a balcony, so I'm not sure spraying is going to be feasible.


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## needmorecoffee (Jun 27, 2014)

When wiping off stain, how firmly do you press? I find that even if I wait 15 min after applying stain, I can take most of it off if I press very firmly using a rag.

Trying to figure out the right balance between going overboard on wiping off excess stain while at the same time not leaving unabsorbed stain to sit on top and dry.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Oak is not prone to blotch so the prestain conditioner isn't necessary. The only time oak takes on a blotchy appearance is when it isn't thoroughly sanded. 

If you are working on a balcony then it would be pretty awkward to spray. You might get away with using a rattle can toner on some of the real light spots. 

Wiping a stain should be done almost immediately. It doesn't take a lot of pressure unless it is left too long and starts to set up. Change rags frequently so the rag doesn't completely fill up. If the rag fills up you end up smearing the stain around instead of removing it. As long as you didn't leave a layer on like you brushed or sprayed a coat on and let it dry you should be alright.


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