# Wood Conditioner.



## dribron (Jul 19, 2010)

Hi, I am not too far from staining an end table I am working on. It is made from Popular. I have read that it is best too use some sort of wood conditioner before staining the wood. I have also read that some people make their own conditioner while others buy theirs. So I have to ask wich is better, store bought or shop made? Also how might I make a shop made wood conditioner? 
This will be a new step for me as I have never made it this far in a wood project. Usally I end up ruining/distroying it at some point.

I apriciate everyone's help. Thank you!

_Duane


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

i use straight mineral spirits and stain 5-10 after. do up some samples with the wood your using.


----------



## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This gets great reviews*

Based on years of trying to find the right product Charles Neil invented his own: https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dca...e-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html
There's a You Tube video: 




Starts in gettin' serious about 2 min 12 secs yada...yada....
even more serious around 4 mins 12 secs......yada ... yada
more .... yada .... kinda slow moving, but informative.
:thumbsup: bill


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

ive used charles neil's conditioner when using water based stain. imo it's no better or worse then most others. though i prefure oil conditioner and stains. a gel stain will also help with the blotchies, but soft wood should still be conditioned.


----------



## dribron (Jul 19, 2010)

Okay so what would be best for popular? Water or oil conditioner? 
Sorry for the questions I am in a whole new world here.. LOL


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

depends on your stain. i like to keep water with water, and oil with oil. water based conditioner needs to be stained quicker witch can be a problem when doing large pc's.
another real good way to seal wood is to use de-waxed shellac start with 2 parts alcohol, and 1 part shellac. do a test pc to see the amount of stain being absorbed. if not enough color add alcohol, if too much color add shellac. that can be used or both water and oil. i find the 2 to 1 works for me, but keep in mind i use gel stains ( oil ).


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

dribron said:


> Okay so what would be best for popular? Water or oil conditioner?
> Sorry for the questions I am in a whole new world here.. LOL


Nine times out of ten. If it works 9 times out of 10, the manufacturers will just print labels on their product and describe what worked, and list it as an application and finishing schedule. Actually the ratio is probably a lot less than 9 out of 10.

There are way too many "experts" out there that have their methods. Some even write books. Maybe instead of writing books they should be doing the finishing. Some have their own products and are forum members and enjoy selling their wares. It's a jungle out there!!!

Some woodworkers experiment with different products and come up with mixes that serve their needs. One product will not do all variations, as there are different species, and differences in woods of the same species. What works on one piece may not work on the next. Generally, if all the stock came from the same source at the same time, I would guess that somewhere around 50% may be close enough to work the same. If they came from the same tree...maybe the same percentage.

So, what I'm getting at is that finishing takes practice and experimentation. Conditioning the wood for staining and finishing can be a very successful way to get an even blotch free finish. It could also be a disaster. Conditioning is simply a method of sealing the wood so the light parts of the wood will look like the dark parts. So, the soft parts will look like the hard parts. Sounds very simple...but it's not. 

What the variables are that not enough sealer will not produce an acceptable surface. Too much sealer will inhibit colorization. Using an oil base conditioner can enhance the grain with whatever oil content it's limited to in its mix. A waterbase conditioner will likely not change the color pre-stain. 

So, basically, you can buy conditioners that are specifically for oil stains/dyes, and ones that are for waterbase stains/dyes. Then follow the instructions on the container and take your sample out to the final finish, which may be stain/dye and a clear topcoat. The sample will look different when stained/dyed, and then look different again after topcoating.

If you want to play with making your own, start with a general mix. For an oil stain, you could start with a clear oil base varnish 20%-25%, and the balance with mineral spirits.

For a waterbase conditioner, you could start with a waterbase clear polyurethane, with 20%-25% waterbase polyurethane, and the balance just plain water. 

In doing samples, see how the stain takes and what the wood looks like. If it still looks a bit blotchy, increase the sealer component and/or, decrease the percentage of the balance. If it doesn't take the stain well, decrease the sealer component, and/or increase the balance.

Keep track of the ratios you start with. You can use cooking measuring spoons, or marked measuring cups. As a side note, you might just give a gel stain a try on a sample right off the bat (without a conditioner). It may save you some shop time.












 







.


----------



## dribron (Jul 19, 2010)

Thank you all so much, some very helpfull information. I guess I'll pick up a small can of gel stain, and give that a try. Then look into condidtioners... I'd love to experiment with making my own, but might wait on that sence this is my first go around with pre-stains. 
I havn't completly reached a final stage of sanding, but should tomarow if time allows. But plan on picking up a few products tomarow, then play with a few scraps.. 

Again, thank you all very much for all your kind help.

_Duane


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

dribron said:


> Thank you all so much, some very helpfull information. I guess I'll pick up a small can of gel stain, and give that a try. Then look into condidtioners... I'd love to experiment with making my own, but might wait on that sence this is my first go around with pre-stains.
> I havn't completly reached a final stage of sanding, but should tomarow if time allows. But plan on picking up a few products tomarow, then play with a few scraps..
> 
> Again, thank you all very much for all your kind help.
> ...


you should still condition poplar when using a gel stain. just wipe wood real good with mineral spirits. maybe pic up a small can of pre treat do both see witch is more to your liking


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jack warner said:


> you should still condition poplar when using a gel stain. just wipe wood real good with mineral spirits. maybe pic up a small can of pre treat do both see witch is more to your liking


What works for you may not work for someone else. You've mentioned using just mineral spirits as a conditioner. Can you explain what it does, or how it works? I'm not knocking it, I just don't see how. I tried it, and it doesn't do anything for controlling blotching.












 







.


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

ms will only work with oil stains, not water. blotch control is nothing more than filling deeper rougher grain with a barrier so that stain does not penitrate. nothing works 100% thats why i allway ( most the time ) tone the lighter areas for blending in. ms has worked for me for yrs. you have to stain right after applying to be effective.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jack warner said:


> ms will only work with oil stains, not water. blotch control is nothing more than filling deeper rougher grain with a barrier so that stain does not penitrate. nothing works 100% thats why i allway ( most the time ) tone the lighter areas for blending in. ms has worked for me for yrs. you have to stain right after applying to be effective.


What about mineral spirits that will act like a barrier? Blotching occurs on the surface as it appears. All it seems to do if anything would be to thin the stain. It would have the same effect on both soft parts and hard parts...and light parts and dark parts. After a few minutes most of it evaporates anyway.

But, if you like the results, that's all that matters.












 







.


----------



## dribron (Jul 19, 2010)

Well I went ahead and bought a quart of wood conditioner that is made by varethane. I also picked up some gel stain; always wanted too try it. Sence I have some MS guess I could play with scraps and compare MS to WC or just straight from the can, and see wich one is better...

I read somewhere about someone using two coats of wood conditioner on popular. So I might also try that just too see.


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

cabinetman said:


> What about mineral spirits that will act like a barrier? Blotching occurs on the surface as it appears. All it seems to do if anything would be to thin the stain. It would have the same effect on both soft parts and hard parts...and light parts and dark parts. After a few minutes most of it evaporates anyway.
> 
> But, if you like the results, that's all that matters.
> 
> ...


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jack warner said:


> ms is a petroleum distillate (oil). the application of ms generously applied, will dry quick on surface wood and slower in the grain. theus the staining right after applying. it very well could be the dilution of the stain in the deep grain that helps the stain not absorbing in those areas. all i know is it works. and works better than minwax conditioner, and others. if you allow it to dry your right it will do very little cuz of evaporation.


If all the mineral spirits does is just dilute the stain, why not just dilute the stain and apply. That way you don't have to haul butt to get your stain down while the MS is still wet. I'm just askin'.











 







.


----------



## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

well i only want the stain "diluted" in the areas that absorbs the most color/stain. if i dilute the stain the hole thing will be lighter. now the stain i use is suspended in a gel/binders, absorbs softer than a penetrating stain. penetrating stains tend to have more probs with blotchy than a gel. but you can also tone with a gel because of the binders its in. you cant really tone with a penetrating stain. you wind up with a wet mess that wont let your top coat dry. imo


----------

