# Orange Peel on 2nd sprayed on coat of enamel



## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

Hello, earlier today I sprayed some cabinets with Behr Marquee paint using an HVLP sprayer. I thinned with water and added some Floetrol. First coat looks great and it dried to touch within half an hour. 

Instructions on the paint say re-coat in 2 hours. So I went back 2 hours later and the paint orange peeled badly. 

Do I need to wait longer when spraying? Did I do something else wrong? I'm sure nothing got on the paint, so I'm assuming I need to wait longer, but how long?

Thanks for any comments on this.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Kahuna said:


> Hello, earlier today I sprayed some cabinets with Behr Marquee paint using an HVLP sprayer. I thinned with water and added some Floetrol. First coat looks great and it dried to touch within half an hour.
> 
> Instructions on the paint say re-coat in 2 hours. So I went back 2 hours later and the paint orange peeled badly.
> 
> ...


The drying time isn't the problem. Was the orange peal on the inside of the cabinet or the outside? It's more difficult to spray the inside of a cabinet with that type sprayer. I use a pressure pot to spray cabinets for that reason. Orange peal can also be caused by the gun malfunctioning but mostly it is caused from the finish not being thinned enough. The finish just dried on contact instead of flowing out. It needs to be applied wetter. You might try thoroughly cleaning the sprayer.


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## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

Thanks for the comments. I think I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining what is happening. What I am getting is more along the lines of lifting. 

It looks like I'm painting over oil or something like that and the paint isn't sticking. The paint is more or less beading up on the surface. So its a dimpled effect which is sort of orange peel looking, but much worse as I can't really even get the paint to cover.

If I wasn't positive things are clean, I would swear an oil residue made its way on there after the first coat. But this stuff was all well prepped and cleaned. The first coat went on flawlessly and the sprayer was cleaned and working well. So I'm at a loss right now.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Kahuna said:


> Thanks for the comments. I think I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining what is happening. What I am getting is more along the lines of lifting.
> 
> It looks like I'm painting over oil or something like that and the paint isn't sticking. The paint is more or less beading up on the surface. So its a dimpled effect which is sort of orange peel looking, but much worse as I can't really even get the paint to cover.
> 
> If I wasn't positive things are clean, I would swear an oil residue made its way on there after the first coat. But this stuff was all well prepped and cleaned. The first coat went on flawlessly and the sprayer was cleaned and working well. So I'm at a loss right now.


What did you do for preparation?


















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Kahuna said:


> Thanks for the comments. I think I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining what is happening. What I am getting is more along the lines of lifting.
> 
> It looks like I'm painting over oil or something like that and the paint isn't sticking. The paint is more or less beading up on the surface. So its a dimpled effect which is sort of orange peel looking, but much worse as I can't really even get the paint to cover.
> 
> If I wasn't positive things are clean, I would swear an oil residue made its way on there after the first coat. But this stuff was all well prepped and cleaned. The first coat went on flawlessly and the sprayer was cleaned and working well. So I'm at a loss right now.


When ever you put one coat over another the surface should be scuff sanded. Did you do this? A finish of that type depends on a mechanical bond rather than melting into the previous coat like shellac and lacquer do. If the surface was too smooth this can cause the finish to preform as you describe. 

The two hour drying time pretains to a minimum amount of time for recoat. It shouldn't cause this problem. Rushing it would just make a soft layer under your topcoat that would take a lot longer to fully cure. 

Another possibility if the what you are painting is a used piece of furniture that there may have been furniture polish used on it. The silicone in aerosol polish can make any finish seperate causing something called fisheye. It makes round circles in the finish. There is a cure but should be used as a last resort.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> When ever you put one coat over another the surface should be scuff sanded. Did you do this? A finish of that type depends on a mechanical bond rather than melting into the previous coat like shellac and lacquer do. If the surface was too smooth this can cause the finish to preform as you describe.
> 
> The two hour drying time pretains to a minimum amount of time for recoat. It shouldn't cause this problem. Rushing it would just make a soft layer under your topcoat that would take a lot longer to fully cure.
> 
> Another possibility if the what you are painting is a used piece of furniture that there may have been furniture polish used on it. The silicone in aerosol polish can make any finish seperate causing something called fisheye. It makes round circles in the finish. There is a cure but should be used as a last resort.


It might be worthwhile to let the OP explain what his preparation was.

















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## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

I had sanded everything down to wood before painting the first coat, so it was basically fresh start. I did not do anything between coats, which sounds like the problem. The guy at HD told me that if I apply the second coat within a few hours that I don't need to scuff it. 

I've only started that second coat on a small area before I stopped, so I still have to prep the rest of it for the second coat. If I need to scuff it, whats the best way to do that? It has a lot of detailed trim and the paint is still pretty soft, so not sure what to use so I don't take off of or damage the first coat on the high spots and edges. Should I use a synthetic steel wool or ?


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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

I like the 3M scuff pads sold at automotive paint stores for detail prep.


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## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

I have some of these around. Any thoughts on if this would be adequate? 
http://www.amazon.com/3M-10120NA-Extra-Synthetic-Steel/dp/B00004Z4AD


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Don't use that steel wool pad, use sandpaper. There is usually little bumps or debris in the finish and the wool pad would just rub over it. You need something to remove the bumps and debris and sandpaper will do it. If you are looking for convenience use a Glit sanding pad. Use an extra fine pad or if using sandpaper use 220 grit.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> It might be worthwhile to let the OP explain what his preparation was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't necessary


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## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

There is lots of trim and high spots. I really can't sand with anything so aggressive on this new paint without taking all the paint off all the edges. At least not until the paint hardens up a lot more. From what I've seen so far that can take a very long time with this paint.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> Wasn't necessary


It should have been. You're in too much of a rush again. I'm thinking that his adhesion problem is from contamination, not just being too smooth. In the prep work, just sanding down would not be sufficient. The sanding would be spreading around whatever the contaminate is. The surface should have been chemically stripped with an MC based stripper, then cleaned, then sanded, then cleaned again. Ordinary solvents, like lacquer thinner would work very well.


















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> It should have been. You're in too much of a rush again. I'm thinking that his adhesion problem is from contamination, not just being too smooth. In the prep work, just sanding down would not be sufficient. The sanding would be spreading around whatever the contaminate is. The surface should have been chemically stripped with an MC based stripper, then cleaned, then sanded, then cleaned again. Ordinary solvents, like lacquer thinner would work very well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't in a rush at all. I have enough experience to cover all the bases. There was either a lack of sanding or it was silicone. It would be a foolish waste of time and materials to strip a finish off because it wasn't flowing out right. There are much easier fixes and stripping doesn't remove the contaminate, it just goes into the wood and lacquer thinner wouldn't cut it. Silicone is best cleaned with Prepsol Solvent prior to stripping. If the problem was silicone smoothie would fix it anyway. 

Besides if you would read the product instructions it says sand between coats.


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## Kahuna (May 25, 2014)

I did clean with TSP, then sanded then TSP again before painting. 

The first coat seems to have bonded well and the finish is great. I would have thought that if I had a contaminate problem that would have showed up somewhere on the first coat.

I did actually read the instructions on the container and on the website and I couldn't find any reference to sanding between coats. I'm not trying to skip steps as I thought I was doing what they manufacturer said by waiting the prescribed time and since I couldn't find anything about sanding I assumed I didn't need to.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Kahuna said:


> There is lots of trim and high spots. I really can't sand with anything so aggressive on this new paint without taking all the paint off all the edges. At least not until the paint hardens up a lot more. From what I've seen so far that can take a very long time with this paint.


Usually on a piece with a lot of detail if you sand the majority of it, its enough to prevent the finish from seperating. It's when you have a large areas it wants to bead up. 

Your drying time may be a result of just put too much finish on at once. With most finishes thinner is better. It dries quicker and harder than a thick coat and if you rush it you end up with several half dried coats under the finish coat. With some finishes it can cause the last layer to crack when the previous coats fully cure. If you would sand the finish between coats it would let you know if the finish was actually dry. If it wasn't the finish would tend to make balls of paint on the sandpaper instead of sanding to dust.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> I have enough experience to cover all the bases.


If you say so. You gave your opinion, and I gave mine. We disagree. That's OK. No need for you to come back and argue that you are right. 


















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> If you say so. You gave your opinion, and I gave mine. We disagree. That's OK. No need for you to come back and argue that you are right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have it backwards I stated my opion and you are arguing with me but then everybody knows that. Just can't help yourself huh.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> You have it backwards I stated my opion and you are arguing with me but then everybody knows that. Just can't help yourself huh.


You just have to have the last word, even if it has nothing to do with the thread. 



















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## Wayne Dyas (Nov 12, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> You just have to have the last word, even if it has nothing to do with the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It appears you have to have the last word. Steve was just trying to answer Kahuna's question until you started something.


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## ironmikeusmc (Dec 26, 2020)

Kahuna said:


> Hello, earlier today I sprayed some cabinets with Behr Marquee paint using an HVLP sprayer. I thinned with water and added some Floetrol. First coat looks great and it dried to touch within half an hour.
> 
> Instructions on the paint say re-coat in 2 hours. So I went back 2 hours later and the paint orange peeled badly.
> 
> ...


same issues here! after much much research i found many things can be! bad outadated paint or needs conditioned with flood penotrol best tstuff . paint says dry time enamel 1 to 1/12 hours and second coat is to hours! i read in article whats happening your first coat was cleaned and sanded most likely or should been! surface was scuffed scuf second before painting also! but conflicts with another artivcle i read also makes sense that people wait way to long for coat to dry that applying a second coat before its completely 100% dry is best or else the clear coat and shine and paint dont lay right they go haywire seperate! which means you cant sand if not even dry yet! but once its dried is all hard n shiny again and paint dont stick to hard shinny surfaces well! also read that to much paint peals


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ironmikeusmc said:


> same issues here! after much much research i found many things can be! bad outadated paint or needs conditioned with flood penotrol best tstuff . paint says dry time enamel 1 to 1/12 hours and second coat is to hours! i read in article whats happening your first coat was cleaned and sanded most likely or should been! surface was scuffed scuf second before painting also! but conflicts with another artivcle i read also makes sense that people wait way to long for coat to dry that applying a second coat before its completely 100% dry is best or else the clear coat and shine and paint dont lay right they go haywire seperate! which means you cant sand if not even dry yet! but once its dried is all hard n shiny again and paint dont stick to hard shinny surfaces well! also read that to much paint peals


Don't know where you have been reading articles but most of it is bunk. All paints made for wood need to be thoroughly dry before adding another coat. On enamel if you apply coats over the top of paint that isn't dry the outer layers will dry before what is underneath. Then if the outer layers get hard enough they can crack from the lower layers shrinking as it dries. Enamel unless the weather is very hot will need 24 hours between coats. There are some automotive finishes that you spray a coat on and wait a few minutes for the finish to flash off and spray a second coat on. That way you can put a thicker coat on at one time without it running. These are catalyzed finishes that will harden though without waiting for the first coat to dry.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, people are probably reading the manufacturers instructions. Enamels, like most paints, have specified recoat windows, those dont change because of what youre painting. Depends on the brand, but the time is usually after one hour, when the paint is dry to the touch but not fully cured so the next layer can chemically bond, or after the paint is fully cured. 

Again, thats coming from the manufacturer. I think they know how to use their paints


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

TSP doesn't always do the job correctly.

On pieces that are to be re-finished, I always use VM&P to wipe everything down, switching cloths regularly. Then I use "liquid sand paper" or "de-glosser" which helps etch the surface for improved adhesion. I follow that with a good wash down of either Acetone or lacquer thinner before starting my finishing process.

On pieces that need to be stripped, I strip them down first, then I go to the VM&P, scuff sand with 180 grit, follow with de-glosser (especially for recessed areas and profiles), then wipe with Acetone or lacquer thinner and start the finishing process.

DO NOT use cloths that will leave lint behind. Better to use microfiber rags at all stages of cleaning.

I've learned over the years that it's worth the extra cleaning/sanding/etching steps before refinishing furniture and kitchen cabinets. Using a dewaxed shellac will also seal in contaminants and do the trick, but it depends whether or not you need "ticking in the wood stain to match an existing finish, in which case you can't use a dewaxed shellac. (That's for another topic!)

Running into contaminants and other finishing issues due to improper pre-cleaning is a pain and most of the time you will have to dang near start all over.

It's always best to sand in between coats in any finishing system, unless you are applying light coats for improved material build. Even then you should scuff sand your last coat before moving on to the next step. As far as re-coating windows, those are merely manufacturer instructions and are mostly suggestions. It depends on the environment your in, temperature, humidity, etc. As long as your can press down with your finger on the coating and you don't leave a finger print, you can scuff sand and recoat.

I haven't been on this site in a long time and I like the new look, but I see Steve and Cabinetman still go at it. I guess some things never change. HAHA!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ColorStylist said:


> TSP doesn't always do the job correctly.
> 
> On pieces that are to be re-finished, I always use VM&P to wipe everything down, switching cloths regularly. Then I use "liquid sand paper" or "de-glosser" which helps etch the surface for improved adhesion. I follow that with a good wash down of either Acetone or lacquer thinner before starting my finishing process.
> 
> ...


Where are you seeing me and cabinetman go at it? He died more than a year ago. 
For those wondering what VM&P is, it's Naphtha which is the main ingredient in wax and grease removers.


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## ColorStylist (Jul 19, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Where are you seeing me and cabinetman go at it?


Sorry, I didn't look at the dates earlier in this thread. Like I said, I haven't been on here in a long time. I had no idea he had passed.

And yes, VM&P Naphtha (Lighter Fluid) is a fast drying solvent. Do not use a 150 Naphtha or 140 Naphtha because those are slower drying solvents and do not clean as well as the faster VM&P Naphtha.


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## B Coll (Nov 2, 2019)

Kahuna said:


> Thanks for the comments. I think I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining what is happening. What I am getting is more along the lines of lifting.
> 
> It looks like I'm painting over oil or something like that and the paint isn't sticking. The paint is more or less beading up on the surface. So its a dimpled effect which is sort of orange peel looking, but much worse as I can't really even get the paint to cover.
> 
> If I wasn't positive things are clean, I would swear an oil residue made its way on there after the first coat. But this stuff was all well prepped and cleaned. The first coat went on flawlessly and the sprayer was cleaned and working well. So I'm at a loss right now.


Please post a pic. that would help a lot. Paint not adhering, or cratering is referred to as fisheyes and almost always caused by contamination. If in fact it is contamination, and you are certain you prepared the surface properly it could be a number of culprits. Was the sandpaper stearated ? Stearated paper has a lubricant that can cause fisheyes in some finishes. Didi you clean the surface prior to spraying with a clean lintless cloth and a mixture of DNA/H20? Was the cloth last washed with fabric softeners? How is your air supply, if using a compressor? Do you filter the air to remove oil and water and is you filter clean and working properly? These are the issues I have found may result in surface contamination. Without a pic, though, it is really difficult to tell.


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