# Bessler's Mt 125



## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

Hi All,
Since I am going to start building this, I thought I would post it in here. Bessler lived a long time ago and left drawings and some books he wrote about his supposed inventions.
His claim was that he invented perpetual motion. with this build, I will be testing a basic hypothesis. I will give the dimensions that I am building to as a reference.
The 2 levers will each be 20 inches long from fulcrum to the center of mass for the weight. I will be using a 1 lb. weight on each lever. This will generate 20 in. lbs. if force.
Because of the way the levers are tethered together, they will generate 20 in. lbs. of force to open the upper bellow with. And if Mr. Bessler's claims are true, then by using 20 in. lbs. of force to syphon 30 oz.'s of water (10 oz.'s in the tube and 20 oz.'s in the bellow) is possible.
If so, then this would suggest that the movement in opening the bellow is what is considered as work in this concept. Kind of like drinking soda through a straw. The outside air is moving the soda through the straw because of a difference in pressure.

Jim


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## Mark89 (Oct 1, 2015)

James, just so you know, there's been many many many claims by people saying they've designed or built a perpetual motion machine, and none of them have actually been such. Have fun with your project nonetheless.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

You know, as much as I like building things, I have to question why you'd want to spend the time building something that's thermodynamically impossible to have work


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

epicfail48 said:


> You know, as much as I like building things, I have to question why you'd want to spend the time building something that's thermodynamically impossible to have work


http://atmosadam.com/

Hopefully every 180 degrees of rotation when both levers drop, water will be pumped / siphoned to the top.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

p.s., I told a gal I know I'd build her, actually have built for her a custom wheel. And since that one is based on pumping water, this is to see if the basic idea is possible. I'm a novice wood worker. But if I am successful with this build, then PBS might be interested in Bessler and his work.
One thing I wish I would've thought of is to have built a bellow and see how much force is needed
to siphon water up a 20 in. tube and also how long it takes. And since I do need bellows, I can try that once I have the outside of the wheels routed which might be tonight.


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## tinstar (Mar 5, 2014)

Warm up the DeLorean Dr. Brown, we're going back to 2013.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

*:-(*



tinstar said:


> Warm up the DeLorean Dr. Brown, we're going back to 2013.



tinstar,
I am sorry to inform you that back to back Miami Championship Banners are no longer available. Of course, Chicago Cubs fans are saying not next year, now ! They've been saying that for what ? 98 years ? Just sayin'... :blink:

Still, with pumping water, theoretically, only a 33.9 foot depth is possible because then 14.7 psi minus 14.7 psi equals no force. Yet
a pump can take suction on a well over 100 feet deep. This just means that the mass of water is calculated as load and not as vacuum. And with what I am building, I will not be surprised if 
W = MD, you know, work equals mass times distance.
And in this situation it would be the amount of force times distance to open the bellow on top. The height the water needs to be lifted might only slow how quickly the bellow opens because pipes act as an orifice in this design and restrict flow.
And I guess with Bessler, his work would be like a blast from the past, then again, maybe some examples of his wood working might be around today. He also built windmills, grandfather clocks, etc. :yes:


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

@all,
With what I am building, a 20 inch tall, 1 inch dia. pvc pipe holds about 10 oz.'s of water.
This translates to about 0.5 psi of force. And for a bellow to open, it needs to have more
force acting on it per square inch. An example is if the bellow has a surface area of 10 sq. in.,
it would need more than 5 lbs. of force trying to open it. 
This is the mistake that most people would make because even 3 lbs. of force is more than 10 oz.'s.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

I placed one lever closer to where it's actual position will be. One unique aspect is how torque applies to this design. This weekend, I 
will post some basic math on the bellows and force. I'll do separate posts for SAE and metric.
The volume of water the bellows will hold will be about the same as the weights that I am using. It might take me a little time to make the bellows as bellows are usually allowed to leak some.
I could place the bellows side by side (as viewed from the top) and may do so. This would allow them to counter balance each other.


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

I'm thinking that this could be a very interesting build. It definitely has some potential to generate discussion on the subject as well as provide some entertainment along the way. I hope that when it is all said and done, successful or not, you will post a video of your project. Either way, I will be tuned in to see how it goes. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the build.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

The drawing shows what hopefully be usable bellows. For a seal, I am going to rout grooves in the bellow and a mating board. The bellow will have a volume of about 14 cubic inches above it's volume
when closed.
If the levers from center of fulcrum to center of mass for the lead weights that I am using is 19 inches, @ 5 1/4 inches from the fulcrum, a force of about 3 1/2 lbs. is generated. With 2 weights working together as in shown in Bessler's drawing (the red line shows how the 2 levers can work as one for maximum work), 7 lbs. of force can be generated.
And since the volume of water in the riser pipe requires a force greater than about 0.5 psi, the bellows as I have designed them have 12 in.^2 of surface area that is movable. This means that 6 lbs. of force is equal to the force a column of water will exert on the pressure/vacuum inside the bellow.
And with the 2 levers working together, a drop of 3 5/8 in. is all that will be needed. And a simple force calculation, the same amount of weight will be moved about 3 times further from center.
By adjusting the weights position on the levers, it may be possible to time for a some what continuous rotation if things work out.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

Am kind of hoping my conversions into the metric system are accurate :smile:

The drawing shows what hopefully be usable bellows. For a seal, I am going to rout grooves in the bellow and a mating board. The bellow will have a volume of about 14 cubic inches above it's volume
when closed.
If the levers from center of fulcrum to center of mass for the lead weights that I am using is 48.25 cm's, @ 13.35 cm's from the fulcrum, a force of about 1.6 kg's is generated. With 2 weights working together as in shown in Bessler's drawing (the red line shows how the 2 levers can work as one for maximum work), 3.2 kg's of force can be generated.
And since the volume of water in the riser pipe requires a force greater than about 0.035 cm^2, the bellows as I have designed them have 77.5 cm^2 of surface area that is movable. This means that 2.75 kg's of force is equal to the force a column of water will exert on the pressure/vacuum inside the bellow.
And with the 2 levers working together, a drop of 9.25 cm's is all that will be needed. And a simple force calculation, the same amount of weight will be moved about 3 times further from center.
By adjusting the weights position on the levers, it may be possible to time for a some what continuous rotation if things work out.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

@All,
While I use the bellow opening 2 in./5 cm as a refernce, with the weights dropping 3 5/8 in./9.25 cm's, the bellow will open only 1 in./2.5 cm. This will allow for adjustments to be made.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

@All,
I am going to build 2 basic bellows. Bellows used in this way may simply use hydraulic theory.
And this is to lift 20 oz.'s of water may only require 20 oz.'s of force. If pressure based on the surface area natters, then that will become known.
My other build has been taking up my time but will start on the bellows today. I have a stand tall enough for trying the bellows on.

Jim


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

Then the bellows could be weighted.While the diagram seems simple, it is. When the top bellow opens, it lowers. The pressure head will always have the same height. It's position will change depending on the open and closed position of the bellows.
And while Mt 125 is a simple drawing, something basic is over looked. The volume of water in the pressure head is all that matters.
When water is drawn into the bellow above the level of the axle, the only water being lifted is what is in the pressure head.
The pressure head might actually be from where one bellow connects to the riser pipe and the furthest point away in the other bellow.
Yet if you notice, a bellow does not open in the upward direction. And if a column of water in a pressure head has a volume of 20 in.^3 or 320 cc's, it may only take a slight heavier weight to lift it.
This is why I am building test bellows for. To see if it is just the greater mass that matters. If so, then as a bellow expands, it would allow for a significant shift in mass.
And that will help with this build if several lbs. of force or a couple kg's are needed. Then the bellows could be weighted. This would reduce the work the levers need to perform.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

Kenbo said:


> I'm thinking that this could be a very interesting build. It definitely has some potential to generate discussion on the subject as well as provide some entertainment along the way. I hope that when it is all said and done, successful or not, you will post a video of your project. Either way, I will be tuned in to see how it goes. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the build.


 Thanks Kenbo. 
One thing I have come to realize is that there is another way to configure pumps. One example is a manual well pump. The primary work it performs is in lifting water. Something like that I think is what would grab peoples attention. It could rotate more quickly and at the same time have a much better appearance.
With bellows, in a way, it would be too old timey or mechanical. I've watched shows like wood smith shop and Rough Cuts, between those shows and some of the work I have seen in here, I have an idea of what can be done with wood and am aware that I have a ways to go and much to learn.

Jim


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

@All,
The link is to a facebook page I started for showing the work I am doing on Johann Bessler's Mt 125 drawing. Bellows are unique as usually they are allowed to leak.
With the drawing, it shows how a manual type well pump can be used to move water around the inside of a wheel. it is the direction I will be going in with Bessler's work. 
What people over look with a design like this is that all the weights cancel each other out. Yet when a weight on a lever drops, it can pump water upward. While it is a basic principle, to use something like this in a water wheel made out of wood, it needs to be thought of a little bit differently. The simple reason is that if the water doesn't move, then all of the force of the dropping weight is causing the wheel to rotate. and with multiple weights, they would store momentum.
And with this type of building, I would say the seals are one of the more difficult aspects but do know from what I've built that it's all a challenge.
And the link to my facebook page; https://www.facebook.com/Johann-Bessler-519837394852305/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

It helps me to stay motivated build wise to show the little details as I figure them out. Bellows usually are not constructed to keep air out and water in while working in tandem, you know, what one is doing, the other is doing the opposite thing.


Jim


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

The picture shows where I'm at with my bellows. The movable face will move towards the opposing bellow. Where the bellow has a flange by the riser pipe, that is for mounting the bellow assembly to the rims. I am going to add a cover plate for the holes that allow for room for water to move into the bellow. 
At the same time, that will allow for a sturdy mounting. I will be using a double compression seal. This will allow me to use screws between 2 dowels and have firm seating. When I get to that point, I'll post a picture of it.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

The 2 pictures show capping the water port. When water flows from the pipe into the bellow, it needs sufficient space to flow quickly. I have water sealer I can apply after I've assembled the bellows. I will install a fill valve so that the volume of water in the system can be lowered or raised.
Later today, I will start on the other bellow. Once this current step is finished, I'll be able to add pieces so I can rout the seats for the seals and then will be able to finish the bellows.
And with something like this, if it works out, then in the future, it would be more about wood working. I could show pictures from a few years ago but if someone doesn't find Bessler's work interesting, it really won't matter. And those people are few.
This is a for fun question. If a lever generates 9.8 n-m's of force and when it drops 15 to 20 cm's and does 2.45 to 4.9 n-m's of work, how much angular momentum can be generated ? This is something Bessler knew.
And with me, I have told one woman I will see about having PBS discuss with it's wood working programs to build it. Kind of why if this Mt 125 build works, I think I'll have their attention. Although I think with some of their programs, they make it all seem so easy but just as experienced people in this forum know, when you know what you're doing, it usually is.


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## James.Lindgaard (Oct 12, 2015)

With Mt 125, there are a few considerations. One is the pressure head. Since the bellows open inward towards 
the axle, when the pressure head moves, it's height doesn't change.
With a 1 inch diameter pipe (1" dia.), a pipe (riser pipe) 20 inches tall (20" L), it will hold about 9 oz.'s of water.
Why this matters is because a diameter of 1 inch (1"), it has a surface area of about 3/4" (0.75 square inches). This means
that the force acting on the volume of the bellow is about 12 oz.'s per square inch (12 oz./psi). And this means that
the force acting on the bellow needs to be greater than 12 ounces (12 oz.'s).
The lower bellow really doesn't do anything when water is being moved to the top bellow. The problem is if the bellow
has a surface area of 12 inches (12 in^2, limber is often measured by the foot, it's a linear measurement that has more 
than the length of the board, it's a reference). 
And when a bellow pumps, if the ratio of it's surface area to it's opening, then 3/4:12 shows how much work is required to
pump water by compression. And since 12/.75= 16, then to pump water by closing the bottom bellow would be 
12 oz.'s x 16= 12 lbs. of force.
Yet because weights drop because of gravity, no one thinks that a pump can work more efficiently by drawing water upwards 
when in this instance, it can. And when someone realizes this, then they can consider the work being performed by a lever
dropping and the shift in force by the force of water in a bellow being shifted from one side of the wheel to the other. And if 
someone is willing to do some basic math and calculate leveraged force and the volume of a bellow both open and closed, it's
not that difficult, it does take some time working at it though.

p.s., the symbol in the drawing most likely is a reference to Freemasons who require a belief in God 
to be a member. It could be Bessler's way of saying believe.

p.s.s., 1 ounce equals about 28.5 grams


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

I have totally lost interest in this since the thread I read this morning.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*seems as if others have also ....*

OP is "no longer here" or banned.:huh:


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

This is ammusing. The OP was posting in a Science Forum and got himself chastised for not knowing what he was talking about.

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/91033-basic-experiment/page-1


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

mengtian said:


> This is ammusing. The OP was posting in a Science Forum and got himself chastised for not knowing what he was talking about.
> 
> http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/91033-basic-experiment/page-1


Fro believing that the laws of thermodynamics allowed a perpetual motion machine to exist, or some other reason?


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## Floyd69 (Feb 8, 2014)

The biggest problem is people trying the same thing over and over and claiming breakthroughs. If they are going to beat this and prove otherwise. Those who chase this idea will have to try something new.


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## OldEd (Jan 14, 2014)

It will work IF AND ONLY IF you have friction-less bearings and zero viscosity water and air.

Sorry, guy, you can build the thing, but it just won't work. Even if you spin it to get it moving, it will stop just as soon as losses - even the losses a small as the air resistance, assuming friction-less bearings, dissipate the initial energy input


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## pmaru77 (Apr 14, 2009)

If you can get it launched into space, deep space, then you may get closer to your dream. Also it will be a very quiet piece of work.


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## OldEd (Jan 14, 2014)

No, it WON'T work in deep space: as described, the device needs a gravity field in order to operate. In deep space the gravity gradient (gravity "field") is non-existent, so it won't work even then.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

OldEd said:


> It will work IF AND ONLY IF you have friction-less bearings and zero viscosity water and air.
> 
> Sorry, guy, you can build the thing, but it just won't work. Even if you spin it to get it moving, it will stop just as soon as losses - even the losses a small as the air resistance, assuming friction-less bearings, dissipate the initial energy input


You nailed it.

It will take a major revision of the laws of physics to get a perpetual motion machine to work.

However, he can have fun building it without expecting it to work.

George


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## Floyd69 (Feb 8, 2014)

I heard that it is not always what you are trying, but what you learn while you are trying. So I hope he has fun with it.


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## pmaru77 (Apr 14, 2009)

OldEd said:


> No, it WON'T work in deep space: as described, the device needs a gravity field in order to operate. In deep space the gravity gradient (gravity "field") is non-existent, so it won't work even then.


You took me too seriously. I was hoping that he would take the next trip out of "town" as in space.
I'm a mathematics grad and physics major and this guy deserves no opinion from me. Poppycock it is.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I know nothing ....*

Why couldn't you make a device that uses the incoming and outgoing tides to harness the power to generate power. Kinda would be free and "green"...


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

I think what is amazing is that this thread has gotten more life in it since the OP got banned


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that's because ....*

Only you and I are paying attention and know what happened. LOL. :yes:


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> Only you and I are paying attention and know what happened. LOL. :yes:


Wrong Bill. I've been paying attention in the background as well. :yes:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Hello?*



Kenbo said:


> Wrong Bill. I've been paying attention in the background as well. :yes:


For a quiet guy, you don't say much....... a Canadian scroll saw genius, lurking in the background... great! :smile:


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> For a quiet guy, you don't say much....... a Canadian scroll saw genius, lurking in the background... great! :smile:


Kind of makes you nervous doesn't it? :laughing:


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> For a quiet guy, you don't say much....... a Canadian scroll saw genius, lurking in the background... great! :smile:


There wasn't much to say really. I was kind of enjoying his thread. Although I didn't have faith in it ever working, I was interested to see what he came up with. Then, out of the blue, things got ugly with other posts in other threads. Quite strange how it all went down. I just didn't see the point in jumping in with all kinds of negativity. It wasn't going to solve anything and I don't think it was going to discourage the OP. Even if his idea never did a darn thing, there might have been something to learn from it. A technique. A jig or fixture. Something. Who knows. Either way, this Canadian was sitting quietly in the sidelines watching the show and then, without warning............the show was cut from the airwaves.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

What was the final straw in getting him banned? He came across wrong, but pretty sure he meant no harm.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I would post the thread but....*



hwebb99 said:


> What was the final straw in getting him banned? He came across wrong, but pretty sure he meant no harm.



The thread that got him banned was deleted. He went into some bizzaire rant about a web stalker from another forum and named him and his location. This was not allowed and he was reported and banned as a result. He was on a personal agenda which is not appropriate for a public forum... a bit of a weirdo in my opinion. He then reappeared using a different user name and was also reported and that probably got him banned also. He has been banned from numerous other forums as well. 
This thread, regarding the perpetual Motion Machine seem harmless although a bit ...... Off Topic, if you know what I mean.:blink:


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

He was certainly a few bricks shy of a load.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Does anyone know why my accounts at sawmill creek never get activated? It says your account has to be sent in for review by a moderator before your account can be activated. It lets me log in for a few hours, but I can't post anything. Then after a few hours it won't let my log in. It just says you have a invalid username or password. I have tried several times with the same thing happening each time.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

hwebb99 said:


> What was the final straw in getting him banned? He came across wrong, but pretty sure he meant no harm.


One way of getting banned is to tell everyone in a post you are going to his representative in Congress and make the forum (WWT) responsible for the "stalker" and that the Mods would need to vet and verify the identity of all members.


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## OldEd (Jan 14, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> Why couldn't you make a device that uses the incoming and outgoing tides to harness the power to generate power. Kinda would be free and "green"...


They HAVE been built, and there are a few non-obvious problems with them (that is, non-obvious if you don't think about the device for more than a few seconds...)

The chiefest problem being that water near shore is not just water: it carries suspended particles: grit, mud, other junk, including fish... The device works, as do all such devices, by removing energy from the water and delivering it to the output shaft. This slows the water down, causing it to loose it's burden of "junk", which gets deposited inside the machine...

This is NOT GOOD for the machine - turbine, or whatever. So your very expensive, and very heavy, device gets plugged up, or worn out from the grit, or in other ways gets degraded to the point of uselessness rather rapidly.

And, being placed in a location with high-speed currents, it is a pluperfect BITCH to maintain...

Get the picture?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*not my idea...*

After thinking about it for 25 seconds, my idea would have no inlets to get clogged with debris. More like a water wheel or a wind mill vane type thingy .... but I know nothing.


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## OldEd (Jan 14, 2014)

woodnthings said:


> After thinking about it for 25 seconds, my idea would have no inlets to get clogged with debris. More like a water wheel or a wind mill vane type thingy .... but I know nothing.


That is true, but.... the efficiency of an unshrouded set of blades is rather low.. Remember: a turbine works by removing energy from the working fluid: be it a gas (air, for example, or steam, for another example) or liquid: i.e. water. It is important to control the flow of your working fluid past the "blades", whether they be fan blades or a paddle wheel of some sort.

Paddle wheels are especially low in efficiency: this means translating flow to rotation, or vice versa (a paddle wheel steam boat, for example. Oars for another.

Sorry... It has been tried, and it just doesn't pay for itself.:thumbdown:


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