# What next?



## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm standing on the edge of the slope with some metal cleats, hoping to make a controlled descent. I have a Lowe's-sourced Stanley 9" (link), a Groz #5 and a Groz block plane. I'm aware that these wouldn't be purchases made by most, but I wanted a cheap way to get into the hobby and I've been happy using them and with the results they've provided. I'll be doing a thorough tune-up on all of them shortly.

I have no _need_ for hand tools, but I've found I enjoy using them when the occasion calls. I don't know what I should be looking for to add to my collection. I have a rather narrow ability to add, as I don't do business with eBay, and trying to get to flea markets or yard sales on the weekend is almost impossible. That said, I can possibly figure out a way.

Woodcraft still has the #3 and #4 Groz on clearance, and since the #5 was decent for the price, I was considering picking them up. However I don't know if I need both or either. I'd like to have a nice small collection, but whatever I get I'll be using them, so I'm not sure I want to duplicate anything. I'm not opposed to putting the Lowe's Stanley out to junk duty though.

Sorry this rambled. Guess in short I'm wondering what number plane I should get next, and if having multiple of the same number is a big deal. I guess I should also ass that I have no spokeshaves or scrapers, but that will be addressed soon.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

They are both smoothers. Having one is not duplicating the other. It's a preference thing. I use both my 3 and 4. The #4 is a good all around smoother size. If you can find a vintage Stanley #4 (and you should be able to for cheap) I'd go that route over the Groz. If you are happy with the Groz that's good though. I started with the Groz and returned mine to Woodcraft. They just didn't work for me.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm ignorant as to how the really nice planes feel and perform. I enjoy using these, which I suppose is the important thing. I'm in a bit of a delicate balance between wanting to have a nice quality tool and having an environment where what I paid could be a waste of money. My shop is not climate controlled, and as of yet I do not have a sturdy bench to get the most out of them.

As to having multiple planes of a similar type - would you set them up differently, or would they have a similar depth of cut, etc?

I think I would like a longer plane, like a #7, but can't pay what places like LV or LN want for them new. It would be irresponsible in my space. I've seen some longer wood-based planes at the antique store, but I'm unfamiliar with what I would be looking for to see if it is a wise purchase. I'm also not opposed to building a plane, especially a longer one.


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

You are starting out like all of us self-starters. I think a wise investment would be a book. I recommend Hand Tool Essentials. It has so much info on choosing planes, setting them up, rehabbing them, sharpening, what each type is for. It is very well illustrated and is a huge help when starting out. I'm speaking directly from experience here. I've had mine for about 4 years and I still reference it a lot. As far as setup of different smoothers. The 3 and 4 are smoothers. The Groz is a bailey style adjuster so being able to adjust the frog, throat, depth, and lateral adjustments is par for the course and easily done on the fly with a nicely tuned plane.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Control the urge*

It is easy to make a purchase since the Groz are on clearance. I think Woodcraft is stopping the Groz since they are now pitching their own Woodriver brand.

As you commented, it is very easy to become a hand plane collector.

I started with a Record #5. When I purchased this, I did not really know what I would use it for. It has seen use. I upgraded the blade to a Ron Hock blade. Big difference.

Over the years I have purchased other hand planes, as I began to appreciate the tasks for which they are designed.

My favourite hand plane is a Veritas medium shoulder plane. Looks odd, but this is due to needing to fit in a dado groove.

Next favourite is a Veritas block plane. General use where short plane is needed.

Next is a Veritas router plane. I use this to clean up dado's which are too narrow for the shoulder plane.

Next is my Veritas Low Angle smoother. This is also used on my shooting board, since the sides are ground 90 deg to the sole. Sad to say the Record #5 does not have a square side. Not worth spending the money to take it to a machine shop.

Check if your Groz plans have sides ground to exactly 90 deg.

A plane should feel comfortable when being used. Not easy since our hands are all different sizes, and the handle has to be based on someone's hands, just may be larger or smaller than yours.

Performance depends on a lot of factors. Is the blade sharp? Is the sole flat". If a bench plane, is the cap iron as close to the cutting edge as possible? Is the cap iron sharpened to prevent shavings from getting underneath. Are you planing soft wood or hard? Is the grain parallel or irregular.

If the grain is parallel and everything tuned, you should be able to get consistent thickness shavings along the entire length of the board.

Planing a soft wood like pine can be almost a therapy. I love to see the thin consistent shavings and normally without much elbow grease.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

At an antique store. They have a 7-9" wood block plane, blade reads Auburn tool, NY. No other identification on the block. Another is about a 17" jack plane, blade reads Sorby. No ident on the block. Both blocks are decent. $20 and $35 respectively.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

cocheseuga said:


> At an antique store. They have a 7-9" wood block plane, blade reads Auburn tool, NY. No other identification on the block. Another is about a 17" jack plane, blade reads Sorby. No ident on the block. Both blocks are decent. $20 and $35 respectively.


Is it a wooden block plane or a wooden smoother? (just because it's made of wood doesn't make it a "block plane" although every antique dealer known to man seems to think otherwise.) Is it coffin shaped or just a hunk of rectangular wood? In any case, AuburnTool Co was rather prolific and their planes are quite common. Unless decent means "Perfect as the day it rolled off the assembly line" (which may have been convict labor depending on the time and sub-brand) and you are in some remote location, then the prices are a bit high. Same goes for the 17" long-jack, short-fore plane. For that one, Sorby made the irons and you might find a maker or owners mark somewhere else on the body.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

joesbucketorust said:


> Is it a wooden block plane or a wooden smoother? (just because it's made of wood doesn't make it a "block plane" although every antique dealer known to man seems to think otherwise.) Is it coffin shaped or just a hunk of rectangular wood? In any case, AuburnTool Co was rather prolific and their planes are quite common. Unless decent means "Perfect as the day it rolled off the assembly line" (which may have been convict labor depending on the time and sub-brand) and you are in some remote location, then the prices are a bit high. Same goes for the 17" long-jack, short-fore plane. For that one, Sorby made the irons and you might find a maker or owners mark somewhere else on the body.


I genuinely appreciate the response. The Auburn-bladed plane was coffin shaped, the Sorby-bladed plane was a long rectangular slab of wood. Unfortunately I found no other markings anywhere on either of the bodies. I passed on them, but more due to lack of knowledge than due to price.

I got a rude shock when I went across the street and found similar planes for double and triple the price respectively for ones in only slightly better shape. The only iron bodies I found were either in horrible shape for a good price, or was a bit high IMO (a Stanley #5 of unknown vintage for $65).

It is, unfortunately, the most planes I've found yet. I need to get to a true flea market. I also appreciate people taking time with me and teaching me some basics.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

If the coffin shaped smoother doesn't have cracked cheeks, the bottom isn't too chewed up, and the cutter is thick, tapered and has some usable life left in it then maybe you could talk them down to $15. Once sharpened up they make good smoothing planes for hardwoods.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

cocheseuga said:


> I'm standing on the edge of the slope with some metal cleats, hoping to make a controlled descent. I have a Lowe's-sourced Stanley 9" (link), a Groz #5 and a Groz block plane. I'm aware that these wouldn't be purchases made by most, but I wanted a cheap way to get into the hobby and I've been happy using them and with the results they've provided. I'll be doing a thorough tune-up on all of them shortly.
> 
> I have no _need_ for hand tools, but I've found I enjoy using them when the occasion calls. I don't know what I should be looking for to add to my collection. I have a rather narrow ability to add, as I don't do business with eBay, and trying to get to flea markets or yard sales on the weekend is almost impossible. That said, I can possibly figure out a way.
> 
> ...


It depends on what your objectives are.

If your objective is to engage in the ego race where acquisition of 'stuff' implies a higher order of 'status', then yes. You have long way to go, since there are plenty of guys who can post mind-blowing pictures of hundreds of different hand planes, encompassing the entire catalog of any and every plane concept ever devised... and when they post that picture on the internet, all the guys go "ohh" and speak of how jealous they are. This challenges the fragile egos of fragile men, this how the 'collector race' is born. 

Assuming you're beyond these absurd adolescent hang-ups and your only objective is to buy tools to work wood, the story is quite different. In that case, buy what you need.

Get a good number 4, something in the Jack plane family, a decent block plane. You just covered 90% of the available ground. Do you need a jointer? Maybe, maybe not. They represent kind of an ideological commitment to hand-tool use that someone with a modern shop probably doesn't have. 

Don't worry about Groz. They're adequate working tools out of the box, tune up into perfectly fine working tools. Obviously, the only catch is that they don't ship sharp, which I'm convinced is a large part of the reason some people don't like them (they do sharpen up fine, though. I have one of their block planes that is a perfectly adequate tool and shaves as thin as any of my similarly tuned vintage Stanleys)

Beyond that, fill the working gaps as you need them. I've picked up random planes here or there- these are the only oddballs that I ever use. 










#12 scraper, #71 router, and a #192 rabbet (which I use for general purpose work regularly). Also use that #12 on pretty much every project that otherwise requires surface sanding. If I had to pick a 'favorite plane', that's it. 

The slippery slope is only as slippery as you make it. 
I wouldn't fall into that obsessive-compulsion to acquire every variant of tool to address every theoretical eventuality that may arise in a. given project. People have been working wood for thousands of years, making incredible projects with 1/100th the tools we have today. 

This is a hobby of skill, not tools.
Children might be impressed by pictures of tools, but pros are impressed by pictures of work pieces and projects.

Remember the old maxim: In woodworking, anything can be shaped with a hammer and chisel, enough talent and enough time. All other tools are just time savers.


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

User CP - Edit Ignore List


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

joesbucketorust said:


> User CP - Edit Ignore List


Sorry.
Next time, I'll communicate in grunts, hand-gestures and sentence fragments so it's something you can better understand. :thumbsup:


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## joesbucketorust (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh don't mind me. I speak three languages, it's just that pontificating a$$ isn't one of them, which is a shame considering how much you have to teach me. So far we've learned that:

1 - you are the only person in the history of mankind to learn how to properly sharpen a tool, and that anyone who needs to resort to a jig is just a waste of life and needs to take up knitting instead.

2 - anyone who has bought a high-end tool is a fool and a disgrace to the woodworking hobby because an expert like you can build museum pieces using just three tools and the odd items you find in the dryer lint trap.

3 - anyone who recommends I buy a quality tool the first time and not waste my money on junk is just trying to take my money or they're xenophobes too scared to buy Chinese. It's certainly not because those pot-metal plane-like things with the tinfoil cutters they sell at Horror Freight actually suck. (Ooh, the light goes on - Maybe they truly are the bees kneees, but we just think they suck because we can't sharpen them coirrectly like you.) 

4 -You have such skill, yet the rest of us are stuck with our "belief in superstitions and irrational traditionalism".


cocheseuga - sorry to hijack your thread, good luck with the tools.

Mods - don't sweat it, I can find my own way out. I'm gonna to go then! And I don't need any of this. I don't need this stuff, and I don't need *you*. I don't need anything. Except this ashtray. And this paddle game. - The ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need... And this remote control. - The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need... And these matches. - The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control, and the paddle ball... And this lamp. - The ashtray, this paddle game, and the remote control, and the lamp, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The paddle game and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches for sure.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

*Collectors... Ego?... I beg to differ*

Member 'Tools', I would hardly call a No 12, No 71 or No 92 "oddball planes" :no: 

No 12's has a specific use as a finishing tool and is relatively good at it. The 92 also is a great plane when tuned and quite versatile, and as for the router planes, well they are extremely versatile and useful in many aspects. If you work exclusively with hand tools the 92 and 71-72 are pretty much invaluable but also extremely common. That's why they are CHEAP. The supply is abunadant because every craftsman had one.

I think you are way off in Left field thinking that everyone here with comprehensive tool collections is a collector. I'm very interested in techniques and making of hand tools and have quite a few... because I USE THEM. I don't have many duplications but wouldn't mind having 3 of most of the hand tools I do use as I manage to earn income strictly from the use of hand tools in my shop and stopping to sharpen or tune a plane can be time costly. 

If you can make anything with a hammer and chisel, how about you fell a tree, debark it, and rip it into usable lumber for me with a hammer and chisel. Its silly prospect. A Hammer is not a saw... a chisel is not a saw and neither will do that job. 

I'm usually the first on the dogpile to advocate not needing a LN plane as a first hand tool but I also appreciate quality tools. I'm all about flea market bargains and rehabbing tools, hell I even suggest that one make his own saws, planes and chisels. But I wont sit here and tell someone that's interested in working with hand tools that all they need is a chisel and hammer. In fact you get near my chisels with a hammer and I'll flip. I know, I know... it was just a saying - but a flawed saying none the less.

Rustic furniture was built with rustic tools... an ax, saw, chisel, mallet and possibly a bit & brace.

Fine furniture was built with that plus, planes, delicate saws, moulding planes, spring pole and treadle powered scroll saws and lathes, and the list goes on.

So that said, the type of furniture to be built and the skill and knowledge of technique being applied to the work is a far more relevant factor in deciding what tools to use than one's ego. Can I build a nice piece with lowes and depot hand tools, a non-embellished simple one, sure. Will it be a miserable experience, you bet it will. Just because one "can get by and be miserable" doesn't mean the guy who builds furniture exclusively with said tools should banish himself to misery. It's silly. If tools are too expensive, you build them.

If you chose to use sub-par tools like HF pull saws, that's your freedom. It's also your freedom to yell that from the mountain tops and how amazing they work. However, in regards to this forum, I would suggest you start off by making a formal introduction and tell us about yourself and show off some of your projects done with your hand tools. The general public is much more likely to buy cold Medicine endorsed by and MD than a traveling salesman. The ONLY certification or credentials this forum recognizes is obvious depth of knowledge and PICTURES.

It's equally MINE and other's freedom to disagree with your propositions and make contrary suggestions. It's how forums work, a collection of questions, ideas and suggestions. Its comes from a wide variety of skill and experience levels from newb to been there done that x 10. 

===========================


Now, back on track to your question, cocheseuga, deciding what is the next best tool for you is a difficult question to answer. It truly depends on what you want to accomplish while at the same time it can be difficult for someone new to hand tools to know what they want out of hand tools. 

If it's simply that you want to have the common tools then figure out how to work them in I'd suggest you spend a bit of time reading about and watching hand tools in action. The Woodwright Shop for example is a great way to see hand tool in action and get ideas of how to use them. 

What plane would I buy next were I in your spot?... a Jointer plane. But that may not be right for you!

The very best way, in my opinion, to decide on purchasing tools is NEED/USE. If you find that you are intrigued by making mouldings by hand, you might want moulding planes. If you are interested in hand tool joinery then you might consider one or more of several styles of hand saws. If you just want another plane because that's what interest you then I would suggest you decide if you want a smoother or a jointer. You already have a jack plane so what is more useful to you at this point in your journey? Do you wish to do more hand finishing work or more hand rough work? And lastly if you just like tools, buy them all but I would suggest you take them one at a time in order of interest and perceived usefulness. 

~tom

ps, you say you have no spoke shaves or scrapers in a way that makes me think you have a perceived need or project requiring them in mind, if that's the case then that same thought process is appropriate to all tool acquisitions.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Joe, please don't go away. Most of us here find YOUR posts to be helpful and informative.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

joesbucketorust said:


> 1 - you are the only person in the history of mankind to learn how to properly sharpen a tool, and that anyone who needs to resort to a jig is just a waste of life and needs to take up knitting instead.


Except that is completely untrue- so, add 'lacking reading comprehension' to the list.



> Anyone who has bought a high-end tool is a fool and a disgrace to the woodworking hobby because an expert like you can build museum pieces using just three tools and the odd items you find in the dryer lint trap.


No, but I would wager that people who do buy "high end tools" are significantly less objective than those who have thought through the cost to benefit ratio and purchase tools to perform a task, rather than as some emotional relationship where owning a particular brand of tool is something to 'aspire to' or some kind of symbolism of how 'serious' you are about a particular hobby. 



> anyone who recommends I buy a quality tool the first time and not waste my money on junk is just trying to take my money or they're xenophobes too scared to buy Chinese. It's certainly not because those pot-metal plane-like things with the tinfoil cutters they sell at Horror Freight actually suck. (Ooh, the light goes on - Maybe they truly are the bees kneees, but we just think they suck because we can't sharpen them coirrectly like you.)


It's because you quite clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You're yet another clueless voice in a long line of them, flogging some mindless 'idealogy' about tool quality, usually tracking back to the wise idea that only Anglos are capable of making quality tools. It's really just a symptom of your own lack of critical thinking skills- it's likely you're not bright enough to make an objective determination on your own, so you'll just rely on 'price' or 'nation of origin' as a surrogate. 

You were the genius in 1982 who laughed at the mere idea of Japanese cars. "HAHA THE JAPS MAKE JUNK! NOSIREE, I LIKE MY STEEL MADE IN DETROIT WHERE THE QUALITY COMES FROM!"



> You have such skill, yet the rest of us are stuck with our "belief in superstitions and irrational traditionalism".


LOL @ "the rest of us". 

Believe me, you don't represent "the rest of us" but you do represent what probably amounts to a majority. My guess is that you're a typical "Joe the Hobbyist"- goatee, pickup truck, house in a tract development, overspends on stuff, reads lots of forums, follows the leader. 

If the most expensive model is the R932, you'll buy that... Until next year, when they release the R933... which will keep you happy until the R934 is finally released!

I'm a marketing strategist here in Chicago. 
It's what I do, every day. While I haven't been assigned a 'woodworking tools' job yet, the game is the same whether I'm convincing you to buy my clients milk or my clients cars. I get paid a not insignificant amount of money to develop strategies to persuade people like you to buy my clients products, since I understand what motivates you significantly better than you do :thumbsup:

It's not 'arrogance' or 'pompousness'. It's just an uncomfortable reality that, in spite of the fact that you don't even realize it and can't even fathom how that could be, is absolutely true. 
In the meantime, keep using 'brands' as a your guidepost. Keeps me employed. 



> Mods - don't sweat it, I can find my own way out. I'm gonna to go then! And I don't need any of this. I don't need this stuff, and I don't need *you*. I don't need anything. Except this ashtray. And this paddle game. - The ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need... And this remote control. - The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need... And these matches. - The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control, and the paddle ball... And this lamp. - The ashtray, this paddle game, and the remote control, and the lamp, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The paddle game and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches for sure.


That was funny :laughing:

Anyway, just took a look at your homepage.
Saw this pic:










So, yeah, I can kind of understand why you 'took offense' to what I said there, since you're apparently the poster child for it.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

sawdustfactory said:


> Joe, please don't go away. Most of us here find YOUR posts to be helpful and informative.


He's not "going away", Einstein. 
He said he was leaving this thread. 

But yeah... I'm sure you speak 9 languages too, just like he does.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

firemedic said:


> I think you are way off in Left field thinking that everyone here with comprehensive tool collections is a collector.


I don't think that about "everyone here", but you can usually tell who something applies to by who gets 'defensive' about it.



> If you can make anything with a hammer and chisel...


The inability to comprehend normal, conversational metaphor (hyper-literalism) is a sign of stupidty, or registry on the autism spectrum. You don't strike me as stupid so tell me, do you like to sit in a chair and rock back and forth a lot? 



> The general public is much more likely to buy cold Medicine endorsed by and MD than a traveling salesman. The ONLY certification or credentials this forum recognizes is obvious depth of knowledge and PICTURES.


You're mistaken if you think its my idea to come here and 'sell' anyone anything, but irrational beliefs are what they are. 

As far as my "POSTING PICTURES OF THE PROJECTS YOU'VE DONE!" maybe I will, although I seriously doubt any of the superstitious kooks who believe in 'brand lore' are objective enough to arrive at the crushing realization that their entire belief structure is dumb, regardless of what I may post. My main interest is lutherie, which is basically a universe away- in terms of requisite skill- from the chairs, china cabinets and birdhouses I'm seeing most people around here making.

Oh, but this...



> If you chose to use sub-par tools like HF pull saws, that's your freedom.


LMAO, and really shows your utter cluelessness.
I can point you to forums where guys who get paid $8000 to build a guitar have nothing but the highest praise for that very pull saw. On their suggestion, I picked one up for cutting kerfed linings (and occasionally fret slooting) and completely agree. It's actually made in Japan and prior to HF getting the contract to carry it en masse, sold for $29.99... But yeah, I'm sure you have extensive experience with it, right? 

Since you felt the need to categorize that saw as you did- and since you're directly challenging the opinions of guys who get paid thousands of dollars for their woodworking creations- can you elaborate what experience you have with that saw and why it should be avoided?

Now now, don't lie. Resist the urge to fabricate that imaginary anecdote to back up your baseless claim... 
Tell us the truth- articulate your insight into that saw- and in the process, completely prove the point I've been making about clueless ideologues on the internet who all have theories and rich narratives about what you should or shouldn't buy, but zero credible knowledge to back that up.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

I was on the road for a service call on a rock crusher, stopped in Spokane Wa. at the Woodcraft store.
_Was taken back by all the stuff, none of it cheap._
_I guess some need alot of those things, or the store wouldnt be there._
_Anyway, there was a fellow demonstrating the Wood River planes. Tried one out myself, worked good._
_The #5 was $159, about what I have into the 11 planes I found at flea markets and such. Not saying thats a bad deal, more that I think used planes are a good buy._

_ One thing I noticed on the Wood River plane was, the surface where the blade mounts on the frog was precision ground._
_ I discovered on the older planes I have, the frog surface is fairly rough machined._
_I found smoothing that surface on the older planes, helps with performance, just a better contact there for the blade seems to help greatly._


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

Benny Blanco said:


> _Was taken back by all the stuff, none of it cheap._
> _I guess some need alot of those things, or the store wouldnt be there._


Some of that stuff definitely services the 'idiot' market. 

For example, a marking knife. You won't find anyone capable of making a rational, reason based case for what a $22 Pfiel marking knife does better than a $1 xacto clone from the dollar store but man, they'll sure sell the hell out of them.

How about different chisels or gouges representing the most trivial dimensional difference, yet if you call it a "set", someone's going to pay for some ridiculous size that offers no functional advantage over what's otherwise achievable with the next standard size in front or behind it. 

Having spent some time in my firms Eastern Europe satellite office and trying to bring some American marketing ideas to the locals over there (since their middle class is expanding pretty rapidly), I really got a sense of just how different consumers are around the world and how mind-blowingly weak American consumers are in the critical thinking department.

There, you MUST offer value and they are relentless at objectively appraising it. 
Here, you needn't do much more than infer 'quality' (actual or not) or 'exclusivity', you nail down 50% of the market right away, even if you're selling them garbage. 

I think a lot of this dysfunctional mindset comes from our long term, relative prosperity where we didn't have to worry about 'basics' and instead, over time, came to allow the people trying to sell us stuff to do our thinking for us. 

(in case you can't tell, I have a love hate relationship with my profession :laughing: )


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm not sure what your issue is, but take it elsewhere. I didn't make this thread to have an argument erupt in it. Enough.


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

Oh, and PS. 

Just to head off the clowns who are going to imply that a cheap xacto is just Harbor Freight junk and it's worthwhile spending money on the 'best carving or marking knife possible' and how it 'holds so well in the hand' and 'cuts so well, unlike those cheap knives' and how the reason anyone might not know this is because they're just too poor to own a 'good knife', so they have to 'make due' with a regular knives while they enjoy the splendor of their $40 knives, here's a little painful objectivity in your eye. 



















(and to answer the inevitable dumb question: Birthday, a nice relative who knew I was into woodworking, went into one of those clip joints and was persuaded into buying that nonsense)


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

cocheseuga said:


> I'm not sure what your issue is, but take it elsewhere. I didn't make this thread to have an argument erupt in it. Enough.


No problem pal. 

To answer your question: 

You'll need to buy Veritas and Lie Nielsen planes, imported french chisels and hammers made of brass and rosewood. 

Enjoy. You and Joesbucketorust can hang out and make birdhouses together :thumbsup:


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

"I went to a fight, and hand planing broke out"


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## Tools (May 30, 2012)

A little spirited dialog never hurt a grown man :laughing:

Anyway, unless someone comes in here and insists on continuing this conversation (your decision, I'll happily continue it right along with you), I'm OK with letting this one rest.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

cocheseuga said:


> I'm not sure what your issue is, but take it elsewhere. I didn't make this thread to have an argument erupt in it. Enough.


Sorry I didn't catch this one sooner but your thread will hopefully get on tract again. 

I'm reading through this whole mess now.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm the last person to try and tell not to spend a bunch of money. Almost all of the tools I own have been bought at a discount, used, or otherwise. My first set of router bits were from HF. My bandsaw is from HF. I have 75% of all the cordless 18v tools Ryobi makes. I'm not one to spend a bunch of money when something similar and less expensive will do.

However...that doesn't meant I won't spend more money on an obviously superior product, especially if there's not that much difference. I think purchasing my first set of chisels from HF was a great idea, personally. I got to get used to the process, I got to learn how to sharpen, and specifically what not to do in both scenarios. A $10 practice set was money well spent to me. Now that I've gotten accustomed to handling them and keep them sharp, I'm about ready to spend $100+ on a nice set from LV. 

Everyone is different. Although telling people to spend money once is usually a sound piece of advice, if you're truly a novice I think it can be a good idea to start out with a much less expensive method or tool.

Such was how I started with planes. I didn't know if I even wanted one, but I was curious. The $20 I spent on the Stanley could have possibly gotten me something better used, but I wanted to jump right into the experience without having to work on it first. Some minor tune up later and I experienced the joy of seeing ribbons of pine lying curled on the floor. If it would have been absolute crap, I'm sure there's a chance I would have been turned off. It didn't, so I wanted more experience. The two Groz planes have turned out rather well, but like I said before, I'm ignorant as to what a truly fantastic plane feels like and performs like, so it works for me right now. A point to my ignorance, I had the blade on the #5 facing the wrong way for six months wondering why I was getting grub in the mouth. 

But back to the original point of this thread, I'm ready to expand my horizons. I'm not looking to cheap out, but I'm not ready to spend $400 on a jointer plane either. Which, in response to Tom, is what I was thinking might be the next step. Or a bullnose.

I can think of a few projects I want to do over the next couple of years, outside of general shop upgrades. A Holtzapffel bench, a counter-height kitchen table, and a Morris chair for my dad. Obviously I need to learn M&T joinery. A couple of nice saws from LV is on my to-attain list for this year. I have a handful of carpentry saws, a Japanese pull saw, flush cut saw, etc. But I'm cognizant that spending some cash on a couple of real nice saws that give enjoyment will make these projects much more enjoyable to complete.

Unfortunately I don't have a mortise machine. However I think I'm comfortable spending roughly the same amount I've seen for them used in getting some nice chisels and saws. Also a sharpening method, one I'm still deciding on. Leaning toward glass and sandpaper to start.

I don't know if the #5 will adequately flatten the surface of the bench, which is part of the reason why I inquire about longer planes.

I'm not big on the wooden planes, however if going that route gets me a plane that will joint the top of the bench and other likewise activities, I'm all for it. If you say that the ones I've found aren't worth it, they'll sit where they are. If I'm not interested in showing them off or having conversation pieces, I'm not sure there's a benefit in owning the older stuff versus building one from scratch with good quality iron and wood.

I hope that makes sense. My needs are few, I just like using what I have and think I would enjoy using others as well.


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## Benny Blanco (Apr 21, 2012)

The more I read about your lifetime bummer, the less I care about your planing future.
Checking on out on this malfunction.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Benny Blanco said:


> The more I read about your lifetime bummer, the less I care about your planing future.
> Checking on out on this malfunction.


Huh???


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

Tools said:


> For example, a marking knife. You won't find anyone capable of making a rational, reason based case for what a $22 Pfiel marking knife does better than a $1 xacto clone from the dollar store but man, they'll sure sell the hell out of them.


A marking knife has two edges that allow it to follow a straight edge. An exacto knife will not do that. 

Now, do you need to spend a bunch of money on one? They can be easily made from an old chisel.

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

Benny Blanco said:


> The more I read about your lifetime bummer, the less I care about your planing future.
> Checking on out on this malfunction.


Okay.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> A marking knife has two edges that allow it to follow a straight edge. An exacto knife will not do that.
> 
> Now, do you need to spend a bunch of money on one? They can be easily made from an old chisel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


And after looking more closely at the picture of your "marking knife", it looks like it is a chip carving knife, and not a marking knife. Is it labeled as a marking knife, or did you decide that is what it is?

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

Tools is banned guys. He can't reply anymore. You have to wonder sometimes what issues a person has to instigate people online. Oh well. 

Benny, I don't get your not caring comment either. You might want to expand on that cause it looks like you're upset with the OP for some reason.

In regards to the entire basis of contention. I think most hand tool users start out with tools they can afford to learn on. I don't know a lot of people that can afford to dive into a hobby full blown and drop a few thousand on a new set of LN's or ________ high end plane. There ARE differences though. It is hard to know how a premium plane feels if you don't get a chance to use one. That being said, the older Stanley's with a nice new iron and chipbreaker work awesome and you'll have less in a plane than a premium one several times over. The hunt is part of the fun. Antique stores, 8/10 times are going to be over priced and not haggle much. You need to hit up garage sales and estate sales. It'll take awhile and you might fall into some junkers, but that's fun too. You said you don't deal with ebay. Why is that if you don't mind me asking? I am not a proponent one way or another and the prices on the "bay" lately would indicate that a large cache of the world's old handplanes were recently destroyed in the Fukishima meltdown, but there are still good deals to be found there. Especially for a Stanley #4 in good condition of an era of high quality.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

To boil my beef with eBay and Paypal into simplest terms, I have a problem with their business practices. Holding accounts ransom, primarily. The last straw was earlier this year when they had a buyer destroy a violin and refund the money because the buyer claimed it was a fake. Seller was out product and money when they shouldn't have been. Cancelled my accounts that I had held for 11 years.

However, as I noticed Saturday when I went to the closest flea market, I may not have very many other options and may have to hold my nose and get new accounts. I can't afford in money or stress to haul my kids around every weekend across the metro hoping to find something.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

*What do you want to accomplish?*

Now that I have gotten over the desire to sling mud with :scooter:, an obvious moron (who is entirely too smart to be around the likes of us) and being he has been banned for the present time:bangin:, I'll once again address the question at hand before tools, or johnray or whatever his name returns on another drunken fit.



cocheseuga said:


> But back to the original point of this thread, I'm ready to expand my horizons. I'm not looking to cheap out, but I'm not ready to spend $400 on a jointer plane either. Which, in response to Tom, is what I was thinking might be the next step. Or a bullnose.


Again it depends on what you want to accomplish. A jointer plane need not set you back $400. In fact I paid $45 for the No 8C Bailey I use on a daily basis. It was a flea market find that only required a bit of TLC. The owner was asking around $80 if I remember correctly but everything in life is negotiable. On ebay they tend to fetch anywhere from $90 to $250 depending on the type.

So that said, what do you want to accomplish? If you want to be a true cave man and use only hand tools but presently have power tools I would suggest easing into it by starting with the rough lumber processing tools such as the scrub plane and jointer... Hand saws, draw knives and scribes are also helpful to the rough lumber operations. 

That then leads to smoothing operations, a smoother plane and a card scraper or scraper plane. Then we progress into joinery which entails hand saws, chisels, marking gauges, and any number of specialty planes dependent upon the form of joinery.

And viola, we have a piece of furniture ready for finishing :smile:


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

firemedic said:


> Now that I have gotten over the desire to sling mud with :scooter:, an obvious moron (who is entirely too smart to be around the likes of us) and being he has been banned for the present time:bangin:, I'll once again address the question at hand before tools, or johnray or whatever his name returns on another drunken fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I responded to you a little in my previous post, but I can see where it would have been missed. I'll go from scratch and try not to meander as much as I did.

Accomplish...I don't know if I have a goal of accomplishing anything as I'd like a more complete shop. I'll give an example - I was working on a project with my kids that called for filing down a surface smooth, and also filing down an edge to a chamfer. This according to the instructions, mind you. So I start on it, and a couple of minutes in I realize that this is going to take forever. Then, it hits me - I have planes, I don't need to use a file. Grab the block plane and take a few passes and she's done. It was an epiphany...the right tool for the job. 

To me, what I've experienced so far is cathartic. Now, I'm not looking to go full neander here. In my situation, with a limited amount of space and much more limited amount of time I don't think it would be right for me. However grabbing a plane that's ready to work to put a chamfer or a roundover on a small piece is a much better option for me than setting up my router table.

I have a few big projects that I want to tackle in the next couple of years - a kitchen table, a Holtzapffel bench and a Morris chair. M&T work is probably going to be my focus. I am going to pick up a pair of nice saws, but I haven't decided on exactly what yet. The Veritas gents and carcass saws are appealing. I'm going to get (eventually) a couple sets of chisels, probably the Narex bevel and mortise sets. I have several what would best be described as carpentry saws, a flush cut, Japanese pull and etc. I've been practicing my technique for using and sharpening chisels on my HF set, which for that I think was a great use of the money. Might turn one or two of those into skew chisels when I upgrade.

I think my main reason for wanting a jointer plane is for the bench surface when it's all glued up and is too big to go through my planer. I'm going to gang up sections and run them through, but I know there will be some discrepancy. As far as measuring and marking goes, I think I have a much better grasp on where I want to go than the planes and cutting instruments.

Hope that helps you help me.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

If you want to flatten a work bench, the bigger the better when it comes to the jointer. If you can find a No 8 or equivalent or a wooden body jointer that would be the way to go.

As for rounding edges you don't need a bullnose plane as mentioned above. A block plane can ease an edge. So can a round plane and they have more uses. A bead or side bead plane might also work for you and is again more versatile. 

It sounds to me like you are not quite ready to start building an expansive tool list. I'll suggest this one more time... go to the PBS site for the Woodwright shop and watch every episode available online... See where that takes you.

Good luck


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

I didn't know those were online. I have to say I never really got into that show before, but perhaps since my attitudes have changed that will as well. I did pull the trigger on those Groz and will have to clean them up tomorrow maybe.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Cocheseuga, I too never really used to like the Woodwrights shop. Always thought he was a little too goofy for me. But then I started getting into hand tools and now I watch it whenever I get the chance. Lots of good info.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

sawdustfactory said:


> Cocheseuga, I too never really used to like the Woodwrights shop. Always thought he was a little too goofy for me. But then I started getting into hand tools and now I watch it whenever I get the chance. Lots of good info.


Goofy. That's a nice way of putting it. A slight bit frenetic, as well.

Presentation can be a huge thing. I started watching NYW well before I started woodworking mainly because I liked the presentation. The opposite turns me off of Tommy Mac.

It's different, but I'm already learning stuff.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Roy is a bit over the top but I enjoy it. I think that's mainly because of the material though.

As for T-Mac... not a fan.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

He can be a bit goofy, but dang, I learn a bunch of things every time I watch. 

A great little project for practicing your planing is to make some clamping cauls. Gives you a useful shop tool as well. I had posed a link over on the tutorials thread a while back if it interests you.


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## cocheseuga (Dec 15, 2010)

Shop Dad said:


> He can be a bit goofy, but dang, I learn a bunch of things every time I watch.
> 
> A great little project for practicing your planing is to make some clamping cauls. Gives you a useful shop tool as well. I had posed a link over on the tutorials thread a while back if it interests you.


I'll have to go take a look.

I will say that I've found a few more tools I wouldn't mind making or owning after watching about 5-6 episodes so far.


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## JQMack (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm coming into this a few months ahead, but on the same path you're heading down - Groz plane and all. First off, Tom (Firemedic) Joe and (most of) the rest here are good, knowledgeable, encouraging folks. Definitely worth the time to listen to. I've certainly learned a lot with their advice and information.

Like I said, I started with a Groz No. 5 and a chisel from Lowes. Plenty of power tools, but working with little ones around, wanting to relax while I worked and a couple of other things lead me to hand tools. And then I ended up here and the world kind of opened up, so let me condense some of what I've picked up to see if we can't speed your journey a little.

Sharpening is key, and I have had luck with the sandpaper method. When I got the Groz, it suuuuuucked. Half an hour with some sandpaper, and a little information on tuning it, and it's a wonderful tool. Definitely a good bargain for someone stepping into this. Same with the chisels and learning to sharpen on the cheaper tools gave me a little more confidence when I sharpened my Narex (do we see a pattern here?) for the first time. Using both of those tools after sharpening was a revelation, finally having a clue how they were supposed to work. 

The Groz was followed by a restoration of a $10 Stanley No.7 to which I added a Hock blade (this is a slippery slope. You've been warned.), which was a whole other level of Wow. Yard sales and flea markets are good tool sources, but Ebay can work if you're careful. The most important thing in buying used? Learn what the dealbreakers are. Some tools can be fixed, some will end up for parts. Now I'm into almost a dozen planes and moving onto handsaws - slippery slope. But I haven't invested more than $100, thanks to a combination of research, searching and plain dumb luck.

As for the projects, those are pretty ambitious. I won't try to talk you out of them, but you may want to consider something that won't break the lumber bank. I thought about Maple Countertops, Oak Cabinets and other projects but settled on the workbench first. Did some research, actually drew up my own design and went to work. I've learned several different joinery techniques, all by hand, not to mention basic skills like marking and layout. I ended up with a 6' x 3' workbench that doesn't wobble with my almost 200 pounds standing on it. Made out of construction pine, total cost? About $50.

A little rambling, sorry. But I guess the point is that I started out asking what tools should I get, but quickly found that the right questions for me were what am I going to build and what techniques am I going to use. That lead me to what tools I needed. Don't get caught up in price or names, buy what you're going to use and what's going to work for you.


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