# Help with angles - noob with miter cuts.



## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Looking to install basic handrails. 
Have landing where the railing goes from its tradition pitch to a more horizontal angle 
Not getting the angles right. 

Using scrap wood for testing. Man oak railings are expensive these days. 

1) Attempted to draw angles from speed square. Pieces fit together well, however the steeper slope piece sticks up too high. 

2) Attempted to get the angles from speed square (verified by angle finger) - divide that number in half and cut. Closet of the options but not right. 

3) Drew outlines of shape on wall, transferred angles to wood and cut. Left a large gap in the joint. 

Presume what I am trying to accomplish is actually pretty basic, yet not getting the right combination. 

Any help would be appreciated. 
Note ~ these are hand cuts for present - not a miter saw










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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

pixelrogue said:


> Looking to install basic handrails.
> Have landing where the railing goes from its tradition pitch to a more horizontal angle
> Not getting the angles right.
> 
> ...


K. Having issues adding photos etc - so much interference asking for subscription that I am likely going to bail the platform. 











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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

What are you using to cut it with?


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

These are scrap tests and just a hand saw until the angle method is figured out. Have several similar railings to install. 

Will cut the actual oak rails on a chop saw. 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Actual railing style 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

It will look like just one side cut would match here however not the case. 

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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Replies do not appear threaded... making this a bit messy, 


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

What brand and kind of chop saw?


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Based on your photo the included angle is about 153 degrees.



pixelrogue said:


> 2) Attempted to get the angles from speed square (verified by angle finger) - divide that number in half and cut. Closet of the options but not right.


 This should be the correct procedure. Each piece will be cut at half of the included angle. 
as an example IF we assume the included angle is 153 degrees then each piece will be cut 13.5 degrees off 90 degrees. Doesn't matter what type of saw is used the angle on the hand rail remains the same. The angle shown on the indicator will either be that same angle or the reciprocal angle depending on the scale used on the saw.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Pixelrogue, if you do not get the same answer as Dave, then something is wrong with your math.

George


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> What brand and kind of chop saw?


Not following how that matters yet when the search is for figuring out the angles. Dewalt.
Base spins for angles. Image not uploading. 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> Based on your photo the included angle is about 153 degrees.
> 
> 
> This should be the correct procedure. Each piece will be cut at half of the included angle.
> ...














Off 90 - mind elaborating? 


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Off 90 - mind elaborating?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Looks like you have it. If the outside angle was 153 degrees you would subtract that from 180 degrees to get the angle. This would be 27 degrees but since you are making the angle with two pieces the cut would be half that which would be 13.5 degrees.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Let’s say the outside angle would be 171.5 (per angle finger,) I am thinking each cut would be 85.75.

How would the 180 come into play?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

pixelrogue said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can do that without figuring angles. Let the right hand board extend past the intersecting point of the skirt. Draw a line on the wall across the top of the right hand board. Now do the same with the left hand board. See where they intersect at the top? See where the skirt intersects at the point. That is your angle, just draw a line from intersecting points and cut.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

pixelrogue said:


> Let’s say the outside angle would be 171.5 (per angle finger,) I am thinking each cut would be 85.75.
> 
> How would the 180 come into play?
> 
> ...


You realize 85.75 degrees is nearly a square cut which would be 90 degrees. 180 degrees would be a straight horizontal line. Anything off of that straight line you would subtract from 180. It's like if you were to come off than angle 90 degrees it would be 90 degrees both directions. Then since you are mitering the 90 degrees it takes two pieces 45 degrees to make it. 

I think your angle is 155 degrees overall. Using a protractor on the picture I get a 12.5 degree angle cut on each piece.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Let’s say the outside angle would be 171.5 (per angle finger,)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What surface are you using to set the "zero" reading on your digital angle finder?

If one side is reading 171.5 degrees, does the other side read 0.0 degrees? If not, then 171.5 is NOT your included angle.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

BigJim said:


> You can do that without figuring angles. Let the right hand board extend past the intersecting point of the skirt. Draw a line on the wall across the top of the right hand board. Now do the same with the left hand board. See where they intersect at the top? See where the skirt intersects at the point. That is your angle, just draw a line from intersecting points and cut.


Sounds like a plan


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> You can do that without figuring angles. Let the right hand board extend past the intersecting point of the skirt. Draw a line on the wall across the top of the right hand board. Now do the same with the left hand board. See where they intersect at the top? See where the skirt intersects at the point. That is your angle, just draw a line from intersecting points and cut.


Isn’t that what was done, see the paper on the wall? Those are the lines, and cut the inspecting lines.,. Obviously not seeing this the same.










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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> What surface are you using to set the "zero" reading on your digital angle finder?
> 
> If one side is reading 171.5 degrees, does the other side read 0.0 degrees? If not, then 171.5 is NOT your included angle.


Now getting that same angle as 147.2 (reverse is 32.8.) I basically zero out the reading with the angle finder straight (180) - o illustrate how new I am at all this. 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

So to combine a few thoughts shared, either 

A) 147/2 = 73.5 angle cut for each side

B) 180 - 147 = 34 / 3 = 16.5 angle cut per side


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> What surface are you using to set the "zero" reading on your digital angle finder?
> 
> If one side is reading 171.5 degrees, does the other side read 0.0 degrees? If not, then 171.5 is NOT your included angle.


Would set angle finder to zero with angle finder straight at 180 (not aligned to any surface)


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

pixelrogue said:


> Isn’t that what was done, see the paper on the wall? Those are the lines, and cut the inspecting lines.,. Obviously not seeing this the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The top line is right, now make the angled line that goes back to the right hit at the point on the skirt right where the skirt makes the transition downward (joint).


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Would set angle finder to zero with angle finder straight at 180 (not aligned to any surface)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I assume that "straight at 180" means you are using the "level" function. Measuring one angle in reference to "level" is NOT what you want.
Place your angle finder against the right hand side, set the reading to "zero", move the angle finder to the left hand side. The reading you get, is the included angle. The hand rails needs to be cut at 1/2 the included angle.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> The top line is right, now make the angled line that goes back to the right hit at the point on the skirt right where the skirt makes the transition downward (joint).


Moving the angled line that goes back to the right to the skirt transition point would be moving the entire board left (the blue outline) and by doing so the corners would then not overlap at the top. 











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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

New sketch, moving boards so left board edge meets change point. Yes, both board are the same width and laying flush. 








.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Sounds like a plan


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)




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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)




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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

The original trim point is incorrect. Original trim carpenter made it work...


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> I assume that "straight at 180" means you are using the "level" function. Measuring one angle in reference to "level" is NOT what you want.
> Place your angle finder against the right hand side, set the reading to "zero", move the angle finder to the left hand side. The reading you get, is the included angle. The hand rails needs to be cut at 1/2 the included angle.


A) 29.6 (150,4 rev)
Placed angle finder on right skirt with pitch, strait at 180, zeros out the reading, then position left blade downward to position for reading. 

B) 150.85 (rev 29.1)
Placing tool on left skirt, 180 straight, zeroing out and then moving right blade into position gives 150.85 (29.1 rev) 

Why would we measure from right-to-left (A) rather than left-to-right (B)? How would you know to go with primary reading or the reverse?

14.5 for cuts..


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

We are at 35 posts now. I think it would have been easier to guess at the angle and miter a couple pieces of scrap until it fit. Shouldn't take more than a couple adjustments.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

14.5 is the angle (yea!)

Have some follow up questions for tomorrow (well, they might be the same questions as above.) Need to understand the process. Turns out the second landing has TWO of these turns. 

Safe to say that even though the shape of the real handle is different, the angle of 14.5 is the angle for the real cut?


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

What I showed is correct.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> View attachment 422968


Yes, thought I had this originally (top points meeting) 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Steve Neul said:


> We are at 35 posts now. I think it would have been easier to guess at the angle and miter a couple pieces of scrap until it fit. Shouldn't take more than a couple adjustments.


Valid point. Some of these posts are also light and I appreciate the tips to help learn. Maybe turn off notifications if the thread count is bothersome.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

It could be a degree one way or the other depending on how well you are on the point , plus there's paint on it.

So remember it's +or-....a degree


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Rebelwork said:


> It could be a degree one way or the other depending on how well you are on the point , plus there's paint on it.
> 
> So remember it's +or-....a degree


Used the speed square for the angles on the wood (which worked) and yet expected the angle finder to display ~14.5 as either primary or reverse (as a double check) but was not getting anything close using the tool.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Rebelwork said:


> View attachment 422968


Bingo, this is the way it is done.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

Glad you got it done. The math did work correctly, given that the 153 degree included angle was only a guess based from a photo.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> Guess the only way you will know is to cut some test pieces.
> Cut a pair at 85.75 or 4.25 (depending on how the scale on your saw is calibrated)
> Also cut a pair at 76.5 or 13.5 degrees.
> Compare the joints and let us know how it works out.
> ...


Hoping to learn the system enough where I am not cutting 4 pieces of wood for each angle test. 

The sketch on wall now makes sense and would also like to get the angle finder to confirm.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> Glad you got it done. The math did work correctly, given that the 153 degree included angle was only a guess based from a photo.


Closer, not done. 

When the real rail goes up it will extend beyond the top step by a few inches before the bend in the rail, so the angles will likely shift. Also have another simile rail to install, which actually has 2 bends.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

pixelrogue said:


> A) 29.6 (150,4 rev)
> Placed angle finder on right skirt with pitch, strait at 180, zeros out the reading, then position left blade downward to position for reading.
> 
> B) 150.85 (rev 29.1)
> ...


@DaveMcCann ~ what was the thought behind placing the measuring tool on the right and then adjust for angle on the left? 


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Hoping to learn the system enough where I am not cutting 4 pieces of wood for each angle test.
> 
> The sketch on wall now makes sense and would also like to get the angle finder to confirm.


Yes, When I typed that response, the photos of you already arriving at the solution, were not showing on my computer. I merely suggested making both test cuts in order for you to confirm in your own mind that the math does work. Digital devices are not always as trustworthy as a mechanical protractor.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> @DaveMcCann ~ what was the thought behind placing the measuring tool on the right and then adjust for angle on the left?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From your photo of your angle finder (only showing the screen of the device) I assumed you were using one like this,









however , it wasn't until later that you indicated your device had two blades. I'm guessing you are using a device which measure from both sides at once?


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## gmercer_48083 (Apr 9, 2016)

I think Pixelrogue is not understanding RECIPROCAL angle. This may be the simplest way of thinking about it.... Take a protractor and look at the scale. There are two scales on it. One scale starts at the left and the other starts at the right with both reading 0-180 degrees. The reciprocal is the opposite scale. Your miter saw only shows the angle starting at zero degrees (which is actually 90 degrees).


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

pixelrogue said:


> *Off 90 - mind elaborating?*
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I won't get into the "how" of this question except to say, a digital angle finder like Dave posted with the two blades is the best tool to determine the angles. Next in preference would be a manually adjustable one use with a protractor, like a this:









The reason it's "off from 90" is that miters saws are scaled for their degree settings, "off from 90" which is "square" to the fence, 90 degrees being the "included" angle. Trim carpenters automatically think "off from 90" when setting their miter saws, unlike if were using a hand saw. As a student of architecture in high school and college, I always used the drafting triangles, 45 degrees and 30/60 degrees in my drawings, and I always thought in terms of the "actual" angles. So along comes a speed square in my framing buddy's tool pouch and I'm dumb founded. "What the heck is that and how does it work?"









Another measuring tool would be an adjustable protractor, a manually set device like this:








OR this:








Finally, there is the "no math required" method of bisecting an angle using just a compass or dividers;


How to bisect an angle with compass and straightedge or ruler - Math Open Reference



So, you can get to the same result in several different ways, based on your measuring tools.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

May I make a suggestion, make your next cut before making this cut, it will be much easier for you.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> From your photo of your angle finder (only showing the screen of the device) I assumed you were using one like this,
> View attachment 422980
> 
> 
> ...













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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> May I make a suggestion, make your next cut before making this cut, it will be much easier for you.


Good video. Which cut are you recommending be made before the other (which other)?

These wonder stairs have an outside wall which are only shims and cinderblock behind the drywall, so opting for the railing to switch sides to keep to inside walls with studs. Prefer not to risk splitting shins and dna aging drywall with lag bolts etc on outside wall.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

pixelrogue said:


> Good video. Which cut are you recommending be made before the other (which other)?
> 
> These wonder stairs have an outside wall which are only shims and cinderblock behind the drywall, so opting for the railing to switch sides to keep to inside walls with studs. Prefer not to risk splitting shins and dna aging drywall with lag bolts etc on outside wall.


The one where the red arrow is pointing in the photo above this post.

The reason I say that is, with a round rail there is no place that I call a starting point. At what point do you lay the rail in the saw to make a cut. Starting from the bottom piece, that second piece will have to be the exact angles at the exact place they make the smooth transition. On top of all that it has to be the exact length. If you make that cut to the first piece first, you will sweat bullets getting the second piece to fit the next or third piece.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

woodnthings said:


> I won't get into the "how" of this question except to say, a digital angle finder like Dave posted with the two blades is the best tool to determine the angles. Next in preference would be a manually adjustable one use with a protractor, like a this:
> View attachment 422982
> 
> 
> ...


In theory, the angle should be identical (I will settle for close at the moment) regardless of the method employed, right?

Fresh sketch to dissect the angle, and yet using the angle finder method the numbers are not matching...which I am confident is user error. 

How would one use the angle finder on a paper sketch to get the same angle readings obtained when using the angle finder on the physical angle of the skirt? 


And asking as a means to double verify when measuring twice (three, four, x) and cutting once?


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> The one where the red arrow is pointing in the photo above this post.


No editing capabilities to change the auto correct changes...not sure if that is the app I am using or a forum limitation. Sorry all for the odd word replacements. 


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

For me, a total round rail was always the hardest for me. A regular rail has a flat place on the bottom which sits flat on your saw. On a round rail there is no flat place so that rail can sit on the saw 360 degrees. If you have an scrap rail, make a 45 degree cut on two pieces. Now place them together and try to simulate the angle of the of the two pieces, you will see the profile of the round rail doesn't match in that cut once the compound angle comes into play.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> For me, a total round rail was always the hardest for me. A regular rail has a flat place on the bottom which sits flat on your saw. On a round rail there is no flat place so that rail can sit on the saw 360 degrees. If you have an scrap rail, make a 45 degree cut on two pieces. Now place them together and try to simulate the angle of the of the two pieces, you will see the profile of the round rail doesn't match in that cut once the compound angle comes into play.


Thankful these have a flat sliver








on the bottom for the saw and mounting hardware.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

You lucked out on that one, that will be a real life saver for you. With the flat on the rail, disregard what I said about making the second piece cut first. It won't be necessary now that you have a starting point on the rail.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Left over from part 1 is to double check angle measurements, cross checking sketch method with Angel finder. 

————
PART 2
————

Railing will be apx.1.5” off wall on brackets.
Railing will be in front of pre-existing fixed ‘faux window ledges if you will’ which extend 1/2” beyond the drywall. There is still clearance for the railing and for one hand while using the railing. 

New sketches are needed using the real angles and real wood, however those window ledges prevent solid placement of the rail to sketch, wouldn’t even be able to snap a chalk line.

I will be able to get lines in place on the wall, however not with the actual pieces of wood like we were able to do on the scrap tests.

Thought on how to get the project started for proper measurements (without actually involving pre-mounts?









Black = rough railing location.
Orange line = alignment with banister.
Blue tape = top of railing markers (lines are drawn on tape.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> You lucked out on that one, that will be a real life saver for you. With the flat on the rail, disregard what I said about making the second piece cut first. It won't be necessary now that you have a starting point on the rail.


Ah, now I understand.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Closer, not done.
> 
> When the real rail goes up it will extend beyond the top step by a few inches before the bend in the rail, so the angles will likely shift. Also have another simile rail to install, which actually has 2 bends.


 Yes the position moves but the angle remains the same. Note all three locations circled in the attached photo. The joint keeps moving toward the left as the height from the floor increases, yet the angle of the joint remains the same.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> Yes the position moves but the angle remains the same. Note all three locations circled in the attached photo. The joint keeps moving toward the left as the height from the floor increases, yet the angle of the joint remains the same.
> 
> View attachment 422988


This is nearly an identical example for the railing, with returns which is Step 3...thank you. 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

And cool, no need to measure elsewhere on the wall, but will need new measurements for the real railing, right? Or angle is the same regardless of the wood being used? Guess the sketch method might change however the angle finder method stays the same.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave McCann said:


> 422988[/ATTACH]


Were the returns a simple 45? No special angels resulting from slopes pitch etc.


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## Dave McCann (Jun 21, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Were the returns a simple 45? No special angels resulting from slopes pitch etc.


I have no idea, just a photo grabbed from the web for illustration.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Update:

Last of the railings go up tomorrow...(oh, except for ones to be glued.) 

Wanted to state I am now more comfortable with angles, and I am using two methods to confirm angle calculations (basic 101 stuff, nothing fancy.) 

The next leg of this journey is to cut and attach the returns. As of now, it appears I need to choose between either having a tight 90 corner or a tight fit at the wall, but not both. If the 90 is clean and fitting well, then the cut at the wall is always off. 

How can the angle of the wall be transferred to the return? I could experiment until each one is right, however there are 16 or so and better to learn how to get the proper measurement for each. 

In the image below, the return is touching the wall at the bottom but angle of cut does not match angle of wall. This is the challenge.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Use a block 1/4" thick with a hole the size of your rail. Scribe/trace the face of the block onto the rail while holding it against the wall. That will be the angle you need to cut, just add 1/4" back on for the block thickness.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

woodnthings said:


> Use a block 1/4" thick with a hole the size of your rail. Scribe/trace the face of the block onto the rail while holding it against the wall. That will be the angle you need to cut, just add 1/4" back on for the block thickness.


Fantastic idea....


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Updates:

Wood block around the outside was helpful. 
I need more practice and expect the variances had to do with the different angles of the saw, matched up what I could. 

Went into this project expecting the angles to be the challenge (and it was) and did not think assembly and install would be an equal challenge. Slightest changes are quiet visible throughout the rail and angles. 

Newest challenge:
Most brackets are mounted to studs. If stud was no available then a heavy strap anchor. 
Most, if not all, returns are screwed to studs. 

Concern that the return ‘area’ of the rails are not adequate in the event someone outright full-gravity-in-play falls; screws might bend for example as rail flexes under such a fall.

Would prefer not to keep adding brackets as that would be overkill, especially on the shorter railings (AND no studs readily available.) The returns have a about a 4” screw from the under side going into the stud. 1.5” screw joining the corner. 
For angles in the rail themselves I buried wood pegs inside to hold the joints. 

Always wished for shop classes in school as these things are pretty basic 101 topic. Truly appreciate the people chipping in on the discussion.





























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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Looking to install basic handrails.
> Have landing where the railing goes from its tradition pitch to a more horizontal angle
> Not getting the angles right.
> 
> ...


Buy an angle divider. The type I have costs less than $10.00 and works well. Do a search for angle divider and the first ones you see are the type I have used for 30+ years.
Half lap about 3" from the end of two sticks. The sticks should be at least the length of two stair treads, 24" should be more than enough. Screw or bolt the sticks together at the half lap, you now have a crude bevel square.
Lay the sticks down flat and push the angle divider up to the sticks. Lock the tool and take to the miter saw. 
Line up the tool against the fence and one edge of the aluminum slot where the plastic insert is. DO NOT line up with the saw cut in the insert, This is never accurate . This will give you the saw cut for both pieces of rail. 
mike


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> Buy an angle divider. The type I have costs less than $10.00 and works well. Do a search for angle divider and the first ones you see are the type I have used for 30+ years.
> Half lap about 3" from the end of two sticks. The sticks should be at least the length of two stair treads, 24" should be more than enough. Screw or bolt the sticks together at the half lap, you now have a crude bevel square.
> Lay the sticks down flat and push the angle divider up to the sticks. Lock the tool and take to the miter saw.
> Line up the tool against the fence and one edge of the aluminum slot where the plastic insert is. DO NOT line up with the saw cut in the insert, This is never accurate . This will give you the saw cut for both pieces of rail.
> mike


I forgot to add the bevel square you made is placed on the stair treads to give you the included angle. Then the divider gives you the half angle which is the miter cut.
mike


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

kwoodhands said:


> I forgot to add the bevel square you made is placed on the stair treads to give you the included angle. Then the divider gives you the half angle which is the miter cut.
> mike


Hello Mike,

I will get an angle divider for the next project - looks quiet handy. Finished now with the miter cuts. You will see the updates in this thread.

All the same I’d like to ask what you meant by straps? Able to elaborate?


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Hello Mike,
> 
> I will get an angle divider for the next project - looks quiet handy. Finished now with the miter cuts. You will see the updates in this thread.
> 
> ...


Should have been typed "strips". Just a scrap piece of wood like a 1x2 . I actually have made two large bevel squares. The first one I made was from maple . I took care to make it look nice as well as functional. Took it to work as I was doing large crown molding and it came in handy for getting the angles . I made another out of poplar, took the maple one home as it attracted too much attention. What I described is a fast and dirty bevel square that works well . 
I'm glad you got your miter cuts done. 
mike


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I hope you don't regret not mounting the wall brackets on wood instead of mounting to sheet rock.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> I hope you don't regret not mounting the wall brackets on wood instead of mounting to sheet rock.


So far everything is to a stud except one or two minor spots...HOWEVER...

Today on the very last screw I ran into an issue (somewhat related to the support topic above at the return.) The last return has no stud. Tried several heavy anchors however it appears anchors are designed to work when installed straight on (not at an angle) and the screw from the under side shoots up at an angle...so no anchor is working. 

Only known work around atm is to use an L bracket which will take an anchor straight.
The L bracket would ruin the aesthetic and this happens to be one of the most visible railings heading up to the dining kitchen area.

Curious if anyone might have other ideas?
1) Way to get this last return supported
2) Way to sure up the returns throughput (see earlier photos) 











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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

If it were me, I would spline it from the bottom side. It wouldn't show and be strong if you used a 3/16" laminated spline made of at least 3 layers of veneer, 1/16" thick. You make it over size without coming through the top/visible surface and then sand smooth the bottom until it's flush. No one will ever know! How you do that is another whole issue. But think how you would secure the two pieces. I would just spline them first, after dry mating them of course and marking for the splines, then glue it all up at once. Better have some good clamping ideas ..... hose clamp half round hole blocks for the clamps to hold onto for one.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If you are talking about anchoring into the wall, using an "L" bracket. Instead of mounting it with the leg of the L bracket sticking down under the rail, turn it over so that leg is between the wall and the end of the rail. You will have to mortis out for it to recess into the end of the rail though. Just mount the L bracket to the wall how ever you wish. Then push the end of the rail to the wall which will cover that leg of the L. Screw the rail to the other leg of the L and there ya go.

If you want it to look professional you can mortise the leg thay goes under the rail into the bottom so it is flush with the bottom of the rail. Just a thought.

The reason I said about mounting the wall mounting brackets onto wood instead of mounting straight to sheet rock is: after a while with some pretty good use, especially if you have teenage boys. The brackets will wallow out the sheet rock as it is softer. If that does happen, all you can do then is mount the brackets to a 1x4 that is dressed running with the rail.


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

Hated using an L bracket (and mortise was a good idea shared thank you.)

Took the return back to the stud instead 

Yes, the point about the brackets on top of drywall is a question. No unruly kids around to give it a beating mind you, yet point taken. Thought most railings were just mounted on top of drywall, no?

On the related topic, would like to shore up the returns in a hidden way. At the moment it is just a screw from the underside which has a hint of give. Any real accident and (while the person will be safe) the screw will bend and likely damage drywall.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I always mounted the wall brackets on a 1x4 dressed running with the rail. I have had to replace several rails that were mounted on sheet rock, but they did have teenage boys and you know how rough they can be. I built my stairs with the possibility there were teens who would slide down the rails and use the post to swing around. Never had one come loose.


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## kwoodhands (May 1, 2020)

pixelrogue said:


> Left over from part 1 is to double check angle measurements, cross checking sketch method with Angel finder.
> 
> ————
> PART 2
> ...


1-1/2" off the wall may not pass a code inspection. I once did the same as you because the home owner said to forget the oak plaques that came with the rail hardware. Inspector told me to install the plaques because 1-1/2" space from wall did not need code.
If there is no stud where you want the brackets then add a piece of wood behind it. 
Cut a slot in the drywall that is less in width and height than the plaque. Drive drywall screw in the center of the scrap wood leaving 1" or more sticking out for a hand hold. Spot adhesive on the wood top & bottom and place in slotted hole Pull tight and then with one hand screw a drywall screw top & bottom. Remove hand hold screw.
You can install the plaques and brackets right away or for safety wait til the adhesive is set, 24 hrs.
mike


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

BigJim said:


> If you are talking about anchoring into the wall, using an "L" bracket. Instead of mounting it with the leg of the L bracket sticking down under the rail, turn it over so that leg is between the wall and the end of the rail. You will have to mortis out for it to recess into the end of the rail though. Just mount the L bracket to the wall how ever you wish. Then push the end of the rail to the wall which will cover that leg of the L. Screw the rail to the other leg of the L and there ya go.
> 
> If you want it to look professional you can mortise the leg thay goes under the rail into the bottom so it is flush with the bottom of the rail. Just a thought.
> 
> The reason I said about mounting the wall mounting brackets onto wood instead of mounting straight to sheet rock is: after a while with some pretty good use, especially if you have teenage boys. The brackets will wallow out the sheet rock as it is softer. If that does happen, all you can do then is mount the brackets to a 1x4 that is dressed running with the rail.


Hide the bracket by the railing - great idea!
I actually have another end or two that disappear into the wall (not really) with no stud and that idea will work great. The railing is long and composed of three sections and think I may need to mortise the bracket in place. Drexel might be the closest tool available to give that a go. 


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## pixelrogue (Jan 23, 2021)

kwoodhands said:


> 1-1/2" off the wall may not pass a code inspection. I once did the same as you because the home owner said to forget the oak plaques that came with the rail hardware. Inspector told me to install the plaques because 1-1/2" space from wall did not need code.
> If there is no stud where you want the brackets then add a piece of wood behind it.
> Cut a slot in the drywall that is less in width and height than the plaque. Drive drywall screw in the center of the scrap wood leaving 1" or more sticking out for a hand hold. Spot adhesive on the wood top & bottom and place in slotted hole Pull tight and then with one hand screw a drywall screw top & bottom. Remove hand hold screw.
> You can install the plaques and brackets right away or for safety wait til the adhesive is set, 24 hrs.
> mike


Brackets put the railing out 2”.


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