# Graywashing Cabinets Over Dark Stain/Dye?



## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

I'm trying to stain our white pine kitchen cabinets gray, but I like the look of a wash over dark stain, at least so far. I have the look I want, but I'm not feeling positive it is repeatable, so I'm trying to look for a more consistent option. 

My most successful experiment: I bought Behr Cordovan Brown stain and did two coats of it with a paint brush, and sanded in between each coat to pull out the pattern of the grain. Then I mixed 2 parts Behr Silver Marlin and 2 parts Behr Still Gray and 1 part water, and wiped on three coats of it. 

What I have is pretty good, but it's not perfect. Where the light parts of the grain are, I'd like for the yellow not to show up as much, I'd like to get more depth to it, and I definitely want something that I can do repeatedly on a bunch of cabinets and get a uniform effect. There was a lot of stain on the darker parts because of the way the stain deposited from the brush.

I bought Transtint Black Dye thinking of adding that to the Cordovan Brown, thinking that would give me greater contrast between the sanded parts and the stained parts. I didn't like the blue/green tint it gave the dye when mixed with that, and how purple it looked right on the pine, and how purple it made my paint wash look. :/ So that was a complete failure. I'm thinking about getting the Transtint Dark Walnut, but I'm sure it's going to do exactly what the Black Dye did and not allow much depth and grain accentuation to happen like staining and sanding did. The staining and sanding made for a reversal of where the dark and the light parts of the grain were, but there was more depth, so I went with it. The one thing I tried that worked really well on its own and not considering the color, was wiping on a thin coat of stain, then putting on the dye, and then giving it a light sanding. I'm not going to say there was a lot of variation in color and depth, because there wasn't, but it did accentuate the grain really well. 

I tried wiping on the stain after this in several layers. It just wasn't dark enough. I'm looking at a piece of wood I've done...maybe 7 or 8 coats on, and it's just starting to look dark enough. Frankly, when considering 15 cabinets doors and everything else, that's a *lot* of coats. I'll do it if I have to, but...it's just a whole lot that feels like I'm doing it the hard way. 

Any suggestions?


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

I'm not sure if this helps, but these pictures give a pretty good idea of what I'm trying to do. 

This picture shows how I want the grain to still show. I don't like the hue of the gray. 
http://www.homebunch.com/wp-content...GrayCabinets-Heidi-Piron-Design-Cabinetry.jpg

This picture also shows the grain still showing, and while the color isn't perfect, this looks very much like what I want my end result to look like. Only, my test piece shows the grain just a little better than that. 
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UzGTikY8tNc/Uy4JLUglI_I/AAAAAAAAGss/jqzifeTO7MA/s1600/coffeetable7.jpg

Also, this is what my under-stain currently looks like once it has been sanded. 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/63/13/ba/6313ba0d6a4ac4527ca9565fcacd3563.jpg

Thanks.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There are a number of different ways to do what you want. What I prefer is to stain the wood and seal it. Then sand the finish like I was going to put a clear topcoat on and spray a thin down oil base
paint on and wipe off the excess with a rag. Then when dry put a non-yellowing clear coat over the top. 

If you could post a picture of the effect you are looking for I could maybe be more specific.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

This is the sample I made. I largely like this effect, though, I'd like a little more depth, and a little less yellow underneath. And maybe less streaking. I haven't yet decided if I like that or not. The stain where the color looks good is about as thick as it can get.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you are wanting less yellow the color violet cancels yellow. Of course on wood you would have to use is very sparingly. 

I can't tell if the streaks are in the wood or the way the wash was applied. It's pretty difficult to eliminate streaks when wiping with a rag. Sometimes you have to wipe the majority off with a rag and finish with a very soft clean paint brush. 

When making samples the wood has to be sanded exactly the way the project is.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> If you are wanting less yellow the color violet cancels yellow. Of course on wood you would have to use is very sparingly.
> 
> I can't tell if the streaks are in the wood or the way the wash was applied. It's pretty difficult to eliminate streaks when wiping with a rag. Sometimes you have to wipe the majority off with a rag and finish with a very soft clean paint brush.
> 
> When making samples the wood has to be sanded exactly the way the project is.


The streaks are because of the way I applied the understain. If I decide I don't like then, I'll use a foam brush. 

What violet product would I use? I really only want the yellow gone from the lighter parts, which is where it shows. 

Aside from that, the main question I guess at this point is how can I get a transparent stain/dye to darken it a lot, while still being able to lift it from the grain to get that depth? The stain I have is good, but I'd like it a tiny bit darker. I like the shade. Just want it darker. :/


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Depending on the stain you use I would try adding a little violet universal tinting color to the stain you are using. A universal tinting color is the colorant a paint store has in their machines to mix paint. Sometimes if you take a small container to a real paint store they will sell you small amounts and a little goes a long way. It would be just a touch or you would end up with the wood looking violet. You can't do this with minwax stains. With minwax stains you could only modify the stain with a dye stain. In the case of violet that would be 20 bucks for a quart you may never use again. The dye stain has a good shelf life but the plastic bottles don't. Any of the dye stain you think you might keep for years I would transfer to a glass jar and shield the jar from light as much as possible. 

A dye stain is very similar to ink so you could go any color you want. You can use it alone or in conjunction with the stain you are using. The dye stain shows more depth because it isn't clouded with so much pigment on the surface. The wash coat also hinders depth. After all it's basically thinned down paint. 

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=178


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> A dye stain is very similar to ink so you could go any color you want. You can use it alone or in conjunction with the stain you are using. The dye stain shows more depth because it isn't clouded with so much pigment on the surface. The wash coat also hinders depth. After all it's basically thinned down paint.
> 
> http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=178


That's true. I haven't found a gray effect I like aside from this. If I could get the yellow parts paler, and the grain to stick out more, I would certainly consider other options.

With this dye stain, would I be able to sand up the grain again? I'm sort of relying on that, which is why I'm hesitant about the Transtint dyes.

I'll go to the store and see if they'll sell me some tinting. Thanks for the tip!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ForgottenGold said:


> That's true. I haven't found a gray effect I like aside from this. If I could get the yellow parts paler, and the grain to stick out more, I would certainly consider other options.
> 
> With this dye stain, would I be able to sand up the grain again? I'm sort of relying on that, which is why I'm hesitant about the Transtint dyes.
> 
> I'll go to the store and see if they'll sell me some tinting. Thanks for the tip!


I don't really understand what you mean by sand up the grain. All I can tell you is an dye stain mixed with alcohol doesn't raise the grain. It's sometimes referred to as a NGR stain meaning non grain raising. 

I was working at a job 60 miles from my shop one time and needed some tinting color and went into Sherwin Williams near there and they didn't have any containers so I ended up going out with tinting color in a styrofoam coffee cup. If the tinting color is something you think you might use in the future some stores sell it in pint bottles. The only brands I can think of offhand is Cal-Tint and Proline. You might have to add water from time to time and shake it a lot but the stuff seems to last forever.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't really understand what you mean by sand up the grain. All I can tell you is an dye stain mixed with alcohol doesn't raise the grain. It's sometimes referred to as a NGR stain meaning non grain raising.


Well, what I have been doing is putting on the stain really thick, and then sanding the wood. Because that part of the grain is harder (I guess?) I end up with the grain popping out like in the pictures I attached. The stain gets sanded off there, but not everywhere else.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ForgottenGold said:


> Well, what I have been doing is putting on the stain really thick, and then sanding the wood. Because that part of the grain is harder (I guess?) I end up with the grain popping out like in the pictures I attached. The stain gets sanded off there, but not everywhere else.


Yes, the hard parts of the grain will be lighter than the rest of it. You might try wiping with a solvent instead of sanding. I think sanding is exposing too much of the grain showing the yellow you don't like. 

What you are doing is alright with the products you are using but don't ever use regular stain like that. Regular stain on the surface doesn't bond to the wood very well and will peal off taking the finish off with it. The deck finish you are using has enough hardening oils in it to bond to the surface. Gel stain could also be used.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes, the hard parts of the grain will be lighter than the rest of it. You might try wiping with a solvent instead of sanding. I think sanding is exposing too much of the grain showing the yellow you don't like.


Oh good thought. I'll give that a shot.



Steve Neul said:


> What you are doing is alright with the products you are using but don't ever use regular stain like that. Regular stain on the surface doesn't bond to the wood very well and will peal off taking the finish off with it. The deck finish you are using has enough hardening oils in it to bond to the surface. Gel stain could also be used.


Regular stain? You're talking about oil based stain? 

I'll look and see if I can find any darker gel stains than what I have.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ForgottenGold said:


> Oh good thought. I'll give that a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regular stain is common oil stains normally used for staining cabinets and furniture. It's just a mixture of universal tinting color, linseed oil and mineral spirits. It's meant to just color the wood, not as a finish like the Behr deck finish you are using. With a regular stain you wipe everything off the surface soon after applying it.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Regular stain is common oil stains normally used for staining cabinets and furniture. It's just a mixture of universal tinting color, linseed oil and mineral spirits. It's meant to just color the wood, not as a finish like the Behr deck finish you are using. With a regular stain you wipe everything off the surface soon after applying it.


Okay, cool. So gel stains would be okay to do this with? Even if they are oil based and the paint is water based??


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ForgottenGold said:


> Okay, cool. So gel stains would be okay to do this with? Even if they are oil based and the paint is water based??


Yes. It's just that regular oil stain doesn't have enough in it to bond it to the surface of the wood. When it's dry it's more like dirt on the surface. Gel stains on the other hand has a finish mixed in it which would bond to the surface. In fact it was developed to finish a fiberglass woodgrain textured door to give it more of the appearance of real wood. You can brush the stuff on it and let it sit and dry. It doesn't have enough in it though to be the complete finish. It needs to be topcoated with a clear coating to protect it. In your case unless you put multiple coats of the gel stain on the waterborne paint should adhere.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes. It's just that regular oil stain doesn't have enough in it to bond it to the surface of the wood. When it's dry it's more like dirt on the surface. Gel stains on the other hand has a finish mixed in it which would bond to the surface. In fact it was developed to finish a fiberglass woodgrain textured door to give it more of the appearance of real wood. You can brush the stuff on it and let it sit and dry. It doesn't have enough in it though to be the complete finish. It needs to be topcoated with a clear coating to protect it. In your case unless you put multiple coats of the gel stain on the waterborne paint should adhere.


Awesome. Thank you, much! I'll give some of these things a try.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Is this also alright to use? The local store doesn't have the color of gel stain I want. They had three colors. That's it. :|

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains/minwax-pro-series-multisurface-wiping-stain

It's gelled, but I don't know if that counts _as a gel stain_.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

ForgottenGold said:


> Is this also alright to use? The local store doesn't have the color of gel stain I want. They had three colors. That's it. :|
> 
> http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains/minwax-pro-series-multisurface-wiping-stain
> 
> It's gelled, but I don't know if that counts _as a gel stain_.


This product I've never seen before. From the description you can apply it and sand up the grain like what you are doing but I don't know if it's compatible with a water based topcoat. You might need to contact their technical support to be sure. 

The color and application you are doing you don't want to use a spar urethane like they are advertising. In time that finish will yellow altering the color and appearance of the finish. Some type of acrylic finish needs to be used to retain clarity.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

That product is basically Minwax's version of an "industrial" wipe stain......Ive never used it as I really dont use any of the minwax lineup.

If you want to use a non yellowing finish that will hold up to wear and tear, I would spray apply a catalyzed CAB acrylic. That will give you a great protective finish on your kitchen cabinets that will not yellow over time.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

Steve Neul said:


> This product I've never seen before. From the description you can apply it and sand up the grain like what you are doing but I don't know if it's compatible with a water based topcoat. You might need to contact their technical support to be sure.
> 
> The color and application you are doing you don't want to use a spar urethane like they are advertising. In time that finish will yellow altering the color and appearance of the finish. Some type of acrylic finish needs to be used to retain clarity.


I contacted the customer support. Hopefully I'll get an answer soon.



RandyReed said:


> That product is basically Minwax's version of an "industrial" wipe stain......Ive never used it as I really dont use any of the minwax lineup.
> 
> If you want to use a non yellowing finish that will hold up to wear and tear, I would spray apply a catalyzed CAB acrylic. That will give you a great protective finish on your kitchen cabinets that will not yellow over time.


I was thinking about using lacquer. Is that what you're talking about? 

Honestly, I don't know the first thing about wood finishing. I'm just a new house owner that doesn't want to spend $10,000 on something that I don't even like that much and can make myself (with the help of my dad).


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ForgottenGold said:


> I contacted the customer support. Hopefully I'll get an answer soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CAB acrylics use an acrylic resin which is basically an almost clear resin. Since it's clear, it will not yellow over time.

Nitrocellulose Lacquers use polyester or alkyd resins which will yellow over time....in some cases almost instantly.

In every kitchen cabinet finishing system, I always suggest either using a precat system or conversion varnish system because each hold up better and take a beating.

A catalyzed CAB acrylic will not yellow and hold up better, actually A LOT better, then lacquer.

You can also get non yellowing precats and conversion varnishes. These are known as "water white".


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

RandyReed said:


> CAB acrylics use an acrylic resin which is basically an almost clear resin. Since it's clear, it will not yellow over time.
> 
> Nitrocellulose Lacquers use polyester or alkyd resins which will yellow over time....in some cases almost instantly.
> 
> ...


Okay, great. I'll see what I can find. Thanks.


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

I seem to be having trouble finding these CAB acrylics you are talking about. Do you have a product name I can go by?


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ForgottenGold said:


> I seem to be having trouble finding these CAB acrylics you are talking about. Do you have a product name I can go by?


Sure. I can only speak for Sherwin Williams, so if anyone else knows a catalyzed CAB material, please chime in.

Go to the SW store and ask for V84FV28. This is SHER-WOOD® Cat-Acrylic Varnish. They will catalyze it for you as well, but wait until your ready to apply the finish before getting this CAB because it only has a 24 hour pot life, otherwise, its a great product. Here is some information about the product:

SHER-WOOD® Cat-Acrylic Varnish,
V84FV0028, is an acid catalyzed acrylic
varnish formulated for coating interior
woodworking. V84FV28 can be used
as a self -sealing system or as a topcoat
over V81FH14 - Catacrylic Sealer or
catalyzed vinyl sealers.

*Advantages*:
 Low HAPS: non-reportable
 Low formaldehyde: non-reportable.
 Water-white – very pale and clear,
can be used over natural and white
coloring systems.
 Contains UV absorber for added
wood protection from light
exposure.
 Ready to apply following
catalyzation.
 Very fast drying.

*APPLICATION*
Typical Setups
May be applied by:
Conventional Spray
Air Assisted Airless
HVLP
Conventional Spray:
Air Pressure...............................40-50 psi
Fluid Pressure................................6-8 psi
Cap/Tip..................................... 011-.013”
Air Assisted Airless:
Air Assist Pressure ................800-900 psi
Cap/Tip.................................... .011-.013”
HVLP:
Gun.....................................Binks Mach 1
Air Pressure at the cap ..................4-9 psi
Fluid Pressure............................10-12 psi

*Potlife Management:*
1. V84FV28 catalyzed with 4 oz.
V66V21 per gallon of coating has a
potlife of 24 hours.
2. To extend potlife of catalyzed
material dilute with 100%
uncatalyzed coating. Add catalyst to
only the uncatalyzed volume the
next day.
3. Do not save catalyzed material over
the weekend.
Cleanup:
Clean tools/equipment immediately after use
with acetone or MEK.
Flush equipment with solvent to prevent
rusting.

*Gloss*: 18 - 22 units @ 60°
Volume Solids: 24.0 ± 2%
Weight Solids: 30.5 ± 2%
Viscosity:
15 - 19 seconds #2 Zahn Cup @ 77F
Recommended film thickness:
Mils Wet 3.0 – 5.0
Mils Dry 0.7 – 1.2
Maximum total film build is not to exceed 4.0
dry mils or cracking may result.
Spreading Rate (no application loss)
368 sq ft/gal @ 1 mils DFT
Drying (77°F, 50% RH):
To Touch: 10 minutes
Tack Free: 15 minutes
To Topcoat: 30 minutes
To Pack: Overnight
Force: 15 minutes flash
15 minutes at 90°F
Flash Point: 4°F Pensky-Martens Closed
Cup

*Mixing Ratio*:
1 Gal V84FV28 Varnish
4 oz. V66V21
Pot Life: 24 hours
Package Life: 24 months, unopened


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## ForgottenGold (May 25, 2016)

RandyReed said:


> Sure. I can only speak for Sherwin Williams, so if anyone else knows a catalyzed CAB material, please chime in.
> 
> Go to the SW store and ask for V84FV28. This is SHER-WOOD® Cat-Acrylic Varnish. They will catalyze it for you as well, but wait until your ready to apply the finish before getting this CAB because it only has a 24 hour pot life, otherwise, its a great product. Here is some information about the product:


Great, thanks. I'll have to see if my brother will apply this for me since I don't have a sprayer. Not sure if his sprayer will be able to do it. I guess I'll find out. 

Thanks.


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## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

ForgottenGold said:


> Great, thanks. I'll have to see if my brother will apply this for me since I don't have a sprayer. Not sure if his sprayer will be able to do it. I guess I'll find out.
> 
> Thanks.


Most sprayers will spray this finish. If he knows how to spray, he shouldnt have any problems. :smile3:


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