# Table Saw Mods??



## joselamar (Sep 17, 2013)

Hey guys, 
I have a table saw from Harbor Freight and I was wondering if anyone here owns the same saw, could tell me if any modifications can be done to it. First thing I noticed is that the fence is total crap and the riving knife is not aligned to the blade by maybe 1/16". I tried fixing it but it's no use. I'm thinking of adding 3/4" plywood to each side of the fence. The other problem I see is the blade insert which is pretty much crap also. My main purpose is to cut small pieces of wood for small projects since space is very limited in my garage. I'm not a pro, just a beginner so I'm still learning. I want the cuts as accurate and square as possible. Anyway, I attached a picture so you can see what saw I'm talking about.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

Not a saw I would put any money into upgrading as it's pretty much a portable jobsite saw. You can put wood faces on the fence (try melamine if you must), and you should be able to bend (by hand) the riving knife to be in line with the blade.
You can get a good hybrid saw that will have the same footprint as that one (with it's stand) and will be much better off.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

It sounds harsh, but I'd add a for sale sign to it, and leave it at that. Seriously....get what you can and cut your losses. Saws like these have such poor design and construction that's there's not much that can be done to help them. In it's place, see if you can pick up a full size cast iron saw with a belt drive induction motor. Craigslist in our area has offerings on a regular basis that would be an upgrade for your HF saw.....$30-$100. If you were to list your geographic location, someone here might be able to offer or find a deal for you.

*Some reading to help with your replacement saw....*


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*depending if it's not that old*

They may take it back. I bought a sliding miter saw, and hated it and back it went, no questions asked. 

Cheap saws, with sloppy fits and with low tolerances can be dangerous. Things get tweaked, jam and then you are tempted to use more force, not good with spinning blades. I'll bet it's noisy also.

A smooth running saw with a easy sliding fence will make a world of difference. See if you can find a used cast iron tablesaw, Craftsman, rigid, Delta, Rockwell, IF you are going to do more than hobby stuff.

A bandsaw is very useful for smaller projects,also with a cast iron frame and table.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Realistically, what sort of budget are you thinking of?


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## joselamar (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. However, looking at good quality saws, well it'$ not in my budget for a long time, unless I win the lotto. I'll just work with it the best I can. As I said, it's for jobs other tools can't do. Small easy cuts. I'll add ply to the fence and will have to work without the riving knife.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

I understand fixed income plenty. The fence can be overcome but in the interests of safety you find a way to either improve the splitter on the saw or adapt it. A simple 1/8 "threaded pin fitted behind the blade would suffice, this is what I use. I drilled a hoke in the inser and tapped it to thread the pin in.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

rbk123 said:


> Not a saw I would put any money into upgrading as it's pretty much a portable jobsite saw. You can put wood faces on the fence (try melamine if you must), and you should be able to bend (by hand) the riving knife to be in line with the blade.
> You can get a good hybrid saw that will have the same footprint as that one (with it's stand) and will be much better off.


He already owns the saw.l

G


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## 4DThinker (Mar 13, 2013)

Look into making a zero-clearance insert, and if you can muster $50 or so invest in a Freud Diablo or similarly respected upgrade blade. The insert will keep small parts from dropping or jamming against the blade. A good upgrade blade can leave edges that are as smooth as a jointer can do.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I have a similar saw that goes to the jobsite. It's small, light, and fits well into the truck with other tools. It's not a production saw, but you can upgrade it without spending hardly any money. I made a longer fence (add on), which helps. It has a blade guard with a splitter. You can make a good ZCI. And last, put a good blade on it. 


















.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Beside a Unisaw in my shop, I have a saw like that. A cheapo Ryobi.
A good blade is key. Getting slop out of the miter gauge bar to slot, is also important.
The saws a screamer, but it cuts wood.
At my fil's he has a Craftsman contractor saw, and a cheapo Craftsman direct drive saw, similar to yours.
I had to rip some 2x4's when I was there, and I preferred the cheapo over the bigger saw. The fence on the contractor saw should be against the law!


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## Stephens73 (Aug 14, 2013)

I have that table saw, and it works great for me. I did do a few modifications to make it more productive. I changed the blade with a Diablo thin kerf. I made a more reliable fence, a dust collection and I rebuilt the stand it was on, by adding extensions on it. I don't have alot of money so I had to take what I have and make it work. Someday I will upgrade, but I am a weekend warrior and build projects for fun. So I really can't justify spending 1000.00 or more on a table saw. Now I can rip a 4x8 sheet by myself safely. Here is a photo of mine.


Then the upgrades


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow Stephens73 really took that saw and made it amazing - well done sir! I applaud you for turning an honestly not amazing beginner saw into a really high utility workstation center! My wife frowned when I told her I spent $60+ on a blade for a craigslist saw I got for $160, but it really is worth every penny. That thin kerf blade lets a lower power saw keep up with thicker material nicely.


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## Stephens73 (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks MattS, I have been watching New Yankee Workshop and have learned so much from these videos. That is where I got the ideas. A friend once told me, its not the car, it's the driver. A skilled craftsman can take almost any tool and create a masterpiece. It's just a matter of how fast and precise they can be with the tools they have. I still have a long list of tools that I would like to have in my collection. Someday I will get them. Here is the current project I am working on, I am building a coffee table out of mahogany with the 1/4" plywood on the ends. Gives it a variety for color.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> He already owns the saw.l


Umm, yeah, I got that; it's why I recommended not putting any more money into it. The other recommendation was to sell it and get a better saw since he listed space as being his reason for getting it.
Carry on.


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## gideon (May 26, 2010)

part of the learning process is buying tools. you do get what you pay for. generally, the more a tool is the longer it should last - in theory. 

you've got to bite the bullet to get something decent and know that it will perform better than most anything at harbor freight. me personally, I'll never order anything moving blankets from them. I've heard nothing but disappointing reviews of their tools.

a folding contractors saw will do much better for you. get the ridgid - great fence.


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## MissionIsMyMission (Apr 3, 2012)

I'd use the saw to make one of these. You could make one for under $50 bucks.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/4184


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## Toolman2 (Jun 15, 2010)

I think it all depends on where you're at financially, and woodworking. Unless we're born with a load of money, most of us have bought cheaper tool in the beginning because that's what we could afford and we weren't doing that much woodworking then that required better machinery.

As the years go on and the need and desire for better equipment arises, and the finances allow, we get better/higher quality tools to do more complex and refined woodwork.

It's a process.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Buy a good saw with a credit card with zero balance. Transfer the balance to another card offering a zero interest deal for 12 months. Banks are begging people to do these kinds of transfers. Divide the payment by 12. Pay it off in a year or less and enjoy owning a saw that will be worth more than any car you will ever make payments on and most likely last far longer. It will cost less than a pack of cigarettes.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## gideon (May 26, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Buy a good saw with a credit card with zero balance. Transfer the balance to another card offering a zero interest deal for 12 months. Banks are begging people to do these kinds of transfers. Divide the payment by 12. Pay it off in a year or less and enjoy owning a saw that will be worth more than any car you will ever make payments on and most likely last far longer. It will cost less than a pack of cigarettes.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.



What companies are offering 0 percent nowadays?


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

What keeps the fence aligned to the blade?
I recently bought a Biesemeyer fence from a cabinet maker. He asked if I wanted the screws he mounted it with. I looked at the bag of wood screws, with a funny look. He explained, that he had the saw bult in to a table, and the fence rail was screwed to the wood table. Used it this way for years.




Stephens73 said:


> I have that table saw, and it works great for me. I did do a few modifications to make it more productive. I changed the blade with a Diablo thin kerf. I made a more reliable fence, a dust collection and I rebuilt the stand it was on, by adding extensions on it. I don't have alot of money so I had to take what I have and make it work. Someday I will upgrade, but I am a weekend warrior and build projects for fun. So I really can't justify spending 1000.00 or more on a table saw. Now I can rip a 4x8 sheet by myself safely. Here is a photo of mine.
> 
> 
> Then the upgrades


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

What keeps the fence aligned to the blade?
I recently bought a Biesemeyer fence from a cabinet maker. He asked if I wanted the screws he mounted it with. I looked at the bag of wood screws, with a funny look. He explained, that he had the saw built in to a table, and the fence rail was screwed to the wood table. Used it this way for years.




Stephens73 said:


> I have that table saw, and it works great for me. I did do a few modifications to make it more productive. I changed the blade with a Diablo thin kerf. I made a more reliable fence, a dust collection and I rebuilt the stand it was on, by adding extensions on it. I don't have alot of money so I had to take what I have and make it work. Someday I will upgrade, but I am a weekend warrior and build projects for fun. So I really can't justify spending 1000.00 or more on a table saw. Now I can rip a 4x8 sheet by myself safely. Here is a photo of mine.
> 
> 
> Then the upgrades


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Al B Thayer said:


> Buy a good saw with a credit card with zero balance. Transfer the balance to another card offering a zero interest deal for 12 months. Banks are begging people to do these kinds of transfers. Divide the payment by 12. Pay it off in a year or less and enjoy owning a saw that will be worth more than any car you will ever make payments on and most likely last far longer. It will cost less than a pack of cigarettes.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


Just what kind of car "a saw that will be worth more than any car you will ever make payments on and most likely last far longer" is this. If you had not said any car I can see buying a rust bucket, but not a r eal car.

How does the total cost get down to "It will cost less than a pack of cigarettes.?"

I am puzzled.

George


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## dogmir (Nov 18, 2012)

The point made above about a craftsman can work with any tool etc is true. Having a nice saw doesn't mean you will know how to use it lol. My wife didn't get her drivers lic till she was almost 30. There is a reason I bought her a cheap car to learn in. To much power and to many options would have just confused her. She need the basics. Look at this saw the same way. I work with a guy that has that exact saw and has no complaints. He knows its not a high end saw and it is what it is. 

As far as mods I agree make a workstation for it to expand your capacity. Make a zero clearance insert. Work to try and square the blade to the miter slots and then square the fence. Keep an eye on the fence to make sure it is square every time you move it. Measure to the front of the blade then the back. Or if you are in a hurry at least throw a square on the front of the table to make sure you are in the ballpark of square (that is if your blade is square to the table.) Use it as a learning experience till you can upgrade by then you will know what you don't like about it, hence what you are looking for in an upgrade.

If you want an upgrade sooner than later I suggest just watch craigslist like a hawk. I got this saw for $100 on my birthday no less lol. It is made by orion and is basically a ridgid r4511 with a cast top and steel wings. I then proceeded to locate some cast wings made for a steel city (which is the same manufacturer). Those were $100 brand new and still had the oil from shipping. A few weeks ago I upgraded the front rail to a one piece 6' long. That set me back $40, since they would only sell me a 12' length. So I still have 6' left for whatever. It has been a great saw. 

That picture is the day I brought it home so it has changed a bit. The guy that had it had put aluminum angle and casters on it, which I took off and put some of the contractor saw retracting casters from Woodcraft on. It also now has several zero clearance inserts and MicroJig splitter on it.

However my point is be patient and think long term. The saw was more than usable at the $100 I bought it for. Over time and piece by piece I upgraded it. I started with a small jobsite craftsman. I used it with great success on many projects. It got me by till I could upgrade. Best of luck.


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## reynoldston (Sep 13, 2013)

Just like anything you buy you get what you pay for. I have a black and Decker at my camp which I would say is the same quality saw. Its way under powered and the fence is junk. What I do with my fence on that saw is use the quick clamps to help hold it in place. The riving knife I had to custom bend it to work.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

My first saw was much like that. It was a $200 Skil with all the "bells and whistles' in the form of a stand, extension table, and extendable outfeed. It's job was to get me started and to give me huge appreciation in the quality of Jet Contractor Saw, and now (10 years later) *really, REALLY* appreciate my Unisaw. I just gave away the skil to a buddy at work. But when I was doing handyman work for friends, I kept it for a job site saw

I used the heck out of that SKil, but aside from clamping on an aux fence, there's not much you can do to correct the fundamental flaws. No matter what you do. it's still going to be a direct-drive, short arbor saw with a motor that (if you use it as much as I did) is going to burn out in a few years. 

Still, I recently made couple small improvements to a HF mortising machine that substantially improved performance, so it is possible to make your saw a little better. 

Mods and adjustments that I could suggest are: 


Replace the throat plate with a piece of polycarbonate (plexiglass or the like) to give yourself a zero-clearance insert. You might have to mods some things to get it in.
Get your hands on a piece of even-angle steel, and clamp it to the deck as your new fence (you can make something equivalent out of wood, too).
Get your hands on a good solid base. Built it yourself or get something "aftermarket" Most of those benchtop saws have the same base footprint, so almost any stand would work.
Get a can of paste wax and wax the surface and fence.
Invest in the best quality blade you can find. Keep it sharp. The better the blade cuts the less stress on the motor and the longer it will run. Plus a good blade will be with you after this Saw has gone to freecycle.
Align the blade with your miter slots. Get a micrometer and adjust the alignment to get the blade parallel to within a thousandth of an inch.
If your miter slots can take a standard 3/4" x 3/8" Miter Gauge, invest in at least an Incra V27. This is something else that should outlast your saw.

Best of luck.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

gideon said:


> What companies are offering 0 percent nowadays?


All of them. I'm talking about a transfer option. They send them in the mail by the hundreds. You transfer your balance from one card to their card. Now you have zero balance on the old card and zero interest on the new one for 12 months. The payoff is far easier this way.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> Just what kind of car "a saw that will be worth more than any car you will ever make payments on and most likely last far longer" is this. If you had not said any car I can see buying a rust bucket, but not a r eal car.
> 
> How does the total cost get down to "It will cost less than a pack of cigarettes.?"
> 
> ...


Okay George let me point this out in simple terms. If you smoke 1 pack a day. $6.00 x 30 = $180 a month. $180x12= $2160 for the year. You can get a really nice table saw for that.

Buy a $20,000 car and pay on it for 5 years. After the 5 years try to sell it and see what it's worth. $1500 is about all it will be worth. My table saw is worth more than that. It has never needed anything except a new tape measure. But I'm getting ready to change the belts.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Doomi (Aug 5, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> All of them. I'm talking about a transfer option. They send them in the mail by the hundreds. You transfer your balance from one card to their card. Now you have zero balance on the old card and zero interest on the new one for 12 months. The payoff is far easier this way.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


Typically even if there is a zero percent deal on the card, they still charge the balance transfer fee. Usually 3-5% of the transfer amount.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Doomi said:


> Typically even if there is a zero percent deal on the card, they still charge the balance transfer fee. Usually 3-5% of the transfer amount.


Pennies on the dollar. 18% is a great amount to not have to pay. Shoot even 9% is nice to not have to pay. I just don't understand why it's so easy to buy a car on time and have it end up in the junk pile but not good tools that last a life time and cost far less.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> Buy a $20,000 car and pay on it for 5 years. After the 5 years try to sell it and see what it's worth. $1500 is about all it will be worth. .


I just sold my wife's 12 year old grand am for 3000.....


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> I just sold my wife's 12 year old grand am for 3000.....


See what I mean. 

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> See what I mean. Al Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.



But we drove 150k miles with it...I'd say we got every penny out of it....

I


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

ryan50hrl said:


> But we drove 150k miles with it...I'd say we got every penny out of it....
> 
> I


Well I have had my TS for 25+ years. Still as good as the day I bought it. It's a very good investment and one I wish other woodworkers understood and took advantage of.

Your car story is not the norm and good for you. So did you sell it or trade it in and get another car?

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Okay George let me point this out in simple terms. If you smoke 1 pack a day. $6.00 x 30 = $180 a month. $180x12= $2160 for the year. You can get a really nice table saw for that.
> 
> Buy a $20,000 car and pay on it for 5 years. After the 5 years try to sell it and see what it's worth. $1500 is about all it will be worth. My table saw is worth more than that. It has never needed anything except a new tape measure. But I'm getting ready to change the belts.
> 
> ...


Fwiw, I challenge you to find me an example of a car that sold for $20k new that is worth less than $1500 after 5 years. Shy of running up the miles to 200k+ it simply isn't done. In fact you are lucky to find a car for $3-5k that was over $20k initially that is TEN (10) years old, unless you are talking about Chrysler/Dodge minivans with the notorious electrical failures.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MattS said:


> Fwiw, I challenge you to find me an example of a car that sold for $20k new that is worth less than $1500 after 5 years. Shy of running up the miles to 200k+ it simply isn't done. In fact you are lucky to find a car for $3-5k that was over $20k initially that is TEN (10) years old, unless you are talking about Chrysler/Dodge minivans with the notorious electrical failures.


It seems your missing the point.

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> It seems your missing the point. Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


I like your posts but this time I think you are missing the point. The OP is on a limited budget, you don't help a limited budget by running up more debt, you make do with what you can afford. Great to to buy a higher end product and yes it will eventually pay dividends. He might save a fortune by quitting smoking but if he doesn't smoke in the first place his savings is zero. Some of the other posters have shown what can be done with a similar cheapo TS and that IMO is a good start.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

tonycan said:


> I like your posts but this time I think you are missing the point. The OP is on a limited budget, you don't help a limited budget by running up more debt, you make do with what you can afford. Great to to buy a higher end product and yes it will eventually pay dividends. He might save a fortune by quitting smoking but if he doesn't smoke in the first place his savings is zero. Some of the other posters have shown what can be done with a similar cheapo TS and that IMO is a good start.


My post was just one comment about a possible solution. Not the only solution. My comment was a good and valid point to an avenue to achieve a product that may seem out of reach. It's a good idea and it should be given a good deal of thought. We maybe should change the way we are thinking. I didn't post to the OP in as much as it was offered to the whole woodworking community. Many do need to change the way they are thinking. Three good quality tools are an investment in our work and our lives. It should be a short term goal not just a dream we are reminded of as we thumb a magazine or walk through a supply store.

Day in and day out this forum busts with posts from owners of cheap saws problems and difficulties doing some of the most basic woodworking. Those saws are great for carpentry. Easy to carry and set up on site. Will do the job.

The table saw is the back bone of most woodwork. It is an investment for today and for a life time. It could very well get handed down and bless another generation. Maybe the first saw should come out of a box store. But the second one should be an investment. 

Al B Thayer

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

As I said before I enjoy your posts, they are always relevant, please believe that my response was not intended as a personal attack, just a different view.


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## Sleeper (Mar 24, 2009)

Bad Timing, it looks like the thread went into another direction.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> It seems your missing the point.
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


It seems you throw around figures that don't make any sense. I (like most) comprehend that a high quality tool holds value and last a lifetime. I got that without your faulty logic and math :laughing:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

tonycan said:


> As I said before I enjoy your posts, they are always relevant, please believe that my response was not intended as a personal attack, just a different view.


No problem. 

My first TS was a Crapsman. Cast iron with a small hp motor. I juiced that up and put better belts on it. World of difference. Then I set out to flatten the table by bolting some angle iron under it and forcing it to bend back into shape. This worked and now the top surface was flat but rough as a cob. So I worked it with a sander and got a pretty slick top. Then I saw the Bessy fence and put that on it. 52". Now I had something to work with. The last improvement was a stabilizer disk on the outside of the Systamatic glue joint blade. I kept the saw for about a year and bought a Unisaw. Sold the Crapsman for $200.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*well intended Al*



Al B Thayer said:


> My post was just one comment about a possible solution. Not the only solution. My comment was a good and valid point to an avenue to achieve a product that may seem out of reach. It's a good idea and it should be given a good deal of thought. We maybe should change the way we are thinking. I didn't post to the OP in as much as it was offered to the whole woodworking community. Many do need to change the way they are thinking. Three good quality tools are an investment in our work and our lives. It should be a short term goal not just a dream we are reminded of as we thumb a magazine or walk through a supply store.
> 
> Day in and day out this forum busts with posts from owners of cheap saws problems and difficulties doing some of the most basic woodworking. Those saws are great for carpentry. Easy to carry and set up on site. Will do the job.
> 
> ...


Here's my take... My first table saw ..50 years ago was a 8 1/4" Skil saw inverted in a "stamped metal" table top about 20" square. It was all a high school kid could afford, but that Skill saw was the biggest and baddest I saw in the hardware store window.

About 3 years later I took my high school graduation and birthday money combined and bought a 10" Craftsman cast iron contractor saw. I used that one for 40 years, at the very end it was stripped down for outside ripping only, because by then I had newer better saws with larger tables and great fences. Fences came one at a time starting with a Delta Unifence. 

Other saws came along including a "monster" 12" 5 HP Powermatic that I haven't used for several years because of space limitations.
That dang thing is scary powerful.  I find that for most of my work I'm not cutting 3" thick hardwood often, and when I do, I rip it on the bandsaw.

Speaking of bandsaws, my first one was a cast aluminum frame Craftsman 12" which I used for 20 years or so including a 10 to 1 speed reducer for cutting metal. Better saws came along and that one was sold off. Each time I got a better tool/machine I realized how much I was struggling with the cheaper one, BUT that was all I could afford at the time. Now I have some tools that really appreciate and bought them even though I couldn't afford them.... :laughing:
You will enjoy them and take your time paying for them... 

We usually give the same advice regarding a first or second time table saw purchase. Go with a cast iron table, and side extensions if possible, a used contractor saw from Rockwell, delta, Rigid or Craftsman from Craig's List. From around $500.00


Next up would be a hybrid, Craftsman, Rigid, Steel City or Grizzly. 
From around $1000.00

There are saws in the $1000.00 to $2000.00 range, Grizzly the Saw Stop contractor, Steel City, Jet etc.

Finally, a cabinet saw Saw Stop, General, Unisaw, Grizzly, Powermatic, or Jet. Over $2000.00 up to over $3000.00

So you see how the price about doubles as you move up the quality scale. The best advice I can give is set a reasonable budget, work with in it knowing that accessories will be needed later on. Maybe a new fence, a better miter gauge, some good blades, dust collection etc. 

I got some great deals at Sears on closeout tools. A 14" bandsaw for $380.00, a 10 hybrid table saw for $486.00, a small dust collector for $130.00. You have to be in the store and grab them to get the deal. But you have to know what is a good deal and what is a good machine, before you plunk down your money.

Woodcraft has a good sale now and then. Amazon almost always has a good price, they are actually "agents" for some of the larger manufacturers, Grizzly for one.

Just my .02$ :yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MattS said:


> It seems you throw around figures that don't make any sense. I (like most) comprehend that a high quality tool holds value and last a lifetime. I got that without your faulty logic and math :laughing:


Nice post Matt. Thinks so much for missing the point and pointing out my math skills.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Woodenthings,
Thumbs up on the Skill saw. I know a guy that still calls all saws like that a Skill saw.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Nice post Matt. Thinks so much for missing the point and pointing out my math skills.
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


/shrugs, I tend to agree more with woodnthings that working your way up through saws until you 'arrive' at the big cabinet saw seems normal. I think your approach of diving into debt to get the end-game saw is encouraging people to be financially irresponsible and go for something they plenty of people just don't need.

Your analogies take away from your arguments when they don't hold water, that was the point of my earlier post. If you are going to try to draw a parallel it helps to state something that makes sense.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MattS said:


> /shrugs, I tend to agree more with woodnthings that working your way up through saws until you 'arrive' at the big cabinet saw seems normal. I think your approach of diving into debt to get the end-game saw is encouraging people to be financially irresponsible and go for something they plenty of people just don't need.
> 
> Your analogies take away from your arguments when they don't hold water, that was the point of my earlier post. If you are going to try to draw a parallel it helps to state something that makes sense.


Another nice post from Matt. Rude too. Did you bother reading the thread? We're talking about a table saw. Buying a table saw is driving up debt?

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> Woodenthings, Thumbs up on the Skill saw. I know a guy that still calls all saws like that a Skill saw. Al Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


You mean there is another name for it?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*How many l's in Skil?*



Al B Thayer said:


> Woodenthings,
> Thumbs up on the Skill saw. I know a guy that still calls all saws like that a Skill saw.


The generic term may be skill saws, the brand name is Skil, my bad.
Circular saw has replaced skill saw as more companies got into the game. I have to concentrate to not call them skill saws, myself. :laughing:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> The generic term may be skill saws, the brand name is Skil, my bad.
> Circular saw has replaced skill saw as more companies got into the game. I have to concentrate to not call them skill saws, myself. :laughing:


"Bad spellers of the world untie".

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> Another nice post from Matt. Rude too. Did you bother reading the thread? We're talking about a table saw. Buying a table saw is driving up debt?
> 
> Al
> 
> Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


Sorry if you are taking it hard... yep I read the whole thread - I posted on it before you did. Did you read it? If you go back and read, you'll notice a post by you that says:



Al B Thayer said:


> Buy a good saw with a credit card with zero balance. Transfer the balance to another card offering a zero interest deal for 12 months.


That is advocating flopping debt forward repeatedly into zero-balance transfer checks by credit cards. Did you forget you posted this?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If you boys are finished with the side track*

Then let's post some useful modifications, other wise let it go. :yes:


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

MattS said:


> Sorry if you are taking it hard... yep I read the whole thread - I posted on it before you did. Did you read it? If you go back and read, you'll notice a post by you that says:
> 
> That is advocating flopping debt forward repeatedly into zero-balance transfer checks by credit cards. Did you forget you posted this?


That was not my post at all. The advantage is gained by zero interest. My children do it often with great success. It's good money management.

Honestly? We're talking about a table saw valued at a little more than $3000 dollars. Which at that level is a good investment. Comparing that to the cost of a car that is not an investment at all. And then there's smoking. Actually the same as burning money and ruining your health at the same time. 

I'm not taking any of the posts hard. Just your uncalled for rudeness. Try being a gent next time.

Al

Friends don't let friends use stamped metal tools sold at clothing stores.


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## MattS (Feb 17, 2010)

Al B Thayer said:


> That was not my post at all. The advantage is gained by zero interest. My children do it often with great success. It's good money management.
> 
> Honestly? We're talking about a table saw valued at a little more than $3000 dollars. Which at that level is a good investment. Comparing that to the cost of a car that is not an investment at all. And then there's smoking. Actually the same as burning money and ruining your health at the same time.
> 
> ...


Being to the point apparently strikes you as rude, which is unfortunate - and apparently pushes you to become rude. I tried for some humor to take the sting out of my initial post to you - and you poked at me about whether I was reading the thread, missing the point etc. This isn't a productive exchange, I regret trying to reason with you.

Sorry everyone for derailing the thread, I'll leave it to Al from here on in :thumbdown:


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## Stephens73 (Aug 14, 2013)

How I keep my blade square to my fence is with a carpenters square. Kinda a pain to do every time, but it works for me.


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## Anguspapa (May 4, 2013)

gideon said:


> What companies are offering 0 percent nowadays?


 Home Depot for 90 days, @ accruing 25% interest, Capital One, 12 months @ accruing 25% interest! Better pay it off! Eric Williams


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*Where There's A Will, There's A Way*

I read in some posts how "perfect" their table saw has to be. I mean they talk about thousandths here and there. They describe all kinds of digital gauges to check this and that. 

To make a long story shorter, when I started out I was right out of the Army, and couldn't find a job. I had an idea to make some money making lamps, and didn't really have a need for a table saw. I did quite a bit of cutting with a hand saw, and used hand planes (from the flea market), and block sanders to get usable edges and faces.

When the work progressed to the point of realizing I needed to cut stock faster, with a bit more accuracy, I set up a hand held circular saw (Skil) that I bought at a flea market for $10, under a piece of plywood that rested on saw horses. For a fence, I used a strip of wood that I clamped down to the plywood. That was my table saw. When I upgraded the saw, that meant a larger piece of plywood. 

With that setup, I cut out materials for cabinets. Today, that seems a bit archaic. But, I earned a living doing that. It was mainly how good of an operator I was. Back then there was no internet, and no forums. There was very little literature on products available, and I don't remember any magazines that catered to the trade.

Fortunately most of what was available came from my suppliers in the form of fliers and brochures of what was on sale, or new products. After making the plunge to buy a benchtop table saw, and finding out I was using it nearly every day, and at times for hours on end, I realized that my saw had serious limitations. 

My first new cabinet saw was a Unisaw, which my supplier gave me a 3 month finance plan. It came with the "jet rail" system, which was a front and rear guide. At the time, if Delta offered an option I wasn't aware of it. I do remember that the first "T" square fence available was a Biesemeyer. I could see a big advantage to that fence. It eliminated having to bump the rear of the fence to get it straight.

The whole point to this is that our needs for what we use may depend on our livelihood. The upgrading and modifications I made were because of how extensive my use was with the saw. For the hobbyist that uses a saw occasionally, an evaluation of what to use might depend on space, budget, and time spent running the saw.

If the budget is there, I say go for whatever will make you happy. The flip side to that is not to be dissuaded by others that make it sound like you have to have this or that. Forums are a great source of information for just about anything. You can find out about what you have and what you can do to improve it. Or find out what you are doing wrong. And above all, get advice on the safe operation of your machinery.

















.


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## RepairmanJack (Aug 4, 2013)

Good Post, CabinetMan. Ingenuity, care, and a practiced hand are the best upgrades you can make. 

I recommend aligning the slots to the blade within 1/1000th because it will make life substantially less frustrating for a beginning woodworker and reduce wear on this saw. 

However, if one is not cross-cutting *and* using a clamp-on fence, then that sort of precision is a non-issue. 


In my recent experience, two things completely changed my old Jet saw in terms of reliability and performance; (1) precisely aligning the blade to the rails and (2) adding Incra Miter Gauge.

If I were still working at the level of a benchtop saw, those would be my two bottom line recommendations. "though, I don't know if that saw could use an Incra gauge


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## Lilblee (Sep 5, 2013)

I have the skill version of that saw, I use it around my property to do maintenance work. I have now made a place in my shop for it. It is the best saw I have for making small fast accurate cross cuts. Make yourself a really nice accurate cross cut sled, lube everything up, set the saw up properly. The fence you will always have to measure at the front and the back of the blade. But it is a strong little saw. IMO every tools has it's place. To me, this saw is great for cross cutting but it sucks as a saw to rip with

Sent from my iPhone using Wood Forum


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## joselamar (Sep 17, 2013)

From table saw mods to car sales. Wow, I wonder what's next. Learn how to fly?


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## Anguspapa (May 4, 2013)

Cabinetman, hit the nail on the head! I think he has been around the block a couple of times. I will admit that, I'm 41 now, and have gotten a little to use to power tools, that's not good either. The last time I used a hand saw was in 7th grade, in my first wood shop class. As I get older it only seems the newer generations are getting lazier and more computer dependent. Because of that, they don't want to make what they have work. I even told a manager at Home Depot, the computer is only as intelligent as the operator! But that is a whole different story. I only wish I was not one of those generations that started becoming computer dependent and power tool dependent. Pretty soon people will stick something against there head, what they are thinking of will show up on the computer screen, then show up on there work bench, if they have a work bench. Maybe I should try and use a nice old hand saw, jack plain, hammer, and nails, for a change. 
Eric


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## JohnnyG73 (Sep 10, 2013)

I agree with everyone that said to invest in a quality blade.

Other easy and inexpensive mods are a simple to build cross cut sled, finger joint jig, and miter jig to name a few.

I too struggle with an older craftsman table saw. It's not too bad I guess but the fence sucks. I have to measure it on both ends to the edge of the saw. I make it work until I can invest in something better:thumbsup:


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

This is how I've always set up my table saws. This one is a bit unique as it has two saws in it. This is "get er done" technology. Keeping the surface clutter free is my biggest challenge but having all that storage handy underneath helps a lot.

Bret


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