# How not to drop a big cedar . . .



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Okay just cause your whining about not enough action in the forestry section Jefferry III, I'll show you guys how not to drop a big cedar. I did it this way on purpose just to show how not to do it. :shifty:

But there's a underlying story to the story, so let's start there. I went in to my back-door neighbors 248, on the southeast end to fetch a few persimmon. You ever notice how, when you're going into the patch to get one species, another one will jump out and throw itself right in your way and demand to be cut down? 

I don't log cedar routinely any more because I'm not working that market any longer. But this one was a nice size. 25-26" at the breast. But that's not what caught my eye. It didn't have drastic taper. But that's not what _made_ me want to drop it. it had a little sweep to it but not much. But that's not what _forced_ me to abandon my persimmon game plan. I've sort of developed a 6th sense on these larger ones, as to whether or not they're hollow or solid, or in between. This one was pegging my "solid" meter hard. 









I figured okay. I'll drop it, leave it lay, and go get the persimmon. So I made a little working room. 









It didn't exactly work out so easy though. I didn't take pics every step, so I'll fill you in. Going in to drop small Persimmon, I had only take two wedges. Well, I didn't "take" any I just happen to have them. As I sized up this cedar, it appeared to me I could drop it the one, and only one way it needed to go without a major fuss. Otherwise I would have left it alone, but it looked like to me I could fall it north. After all, I had two whole wedges with me! It had some southern lean, but we had a steady southern breeze with occasional gust to 10 or 15MPH so I had that in my tool kit also. 

I notched the north face, entered my backcut, and when it was clear I drove two wedges behind the blade and continued the cut toward where i'd stop and leave the hinge. But I could see real fast, two wedges weren't going to be enough. This thing was sittin down hard on the south side. The two wedges would not longer drive. Period. So I went to a standing dead Persimmon I'd dropped the day before and made another wedge from the stump. 

















So I started driving, and intended to walk the wedges a little closer to north face, not too close or it'd topple back, but I could not remove them, so i decided to drive them all to the hilt, knowing it would still not be enough but I would cross that bridge once there. So I drove them, and then had to cross the bridge . . . . . . 









So I did some highly technical chainsaw artistry above the wedges so I could give them more of the business end of the sledge. I had more room to drive them in further, but would it be enough to get the tree just past the tipping point? If not, bit maybe close enough for nice whiff of air to finish her off? Would the wind suddenly reverse 180° and bring ruin on me? Would a herd of javelina come charging out of the bush and have me for dinner? 


To be continued next week . . . . .


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## AZ Termite (Dec 20, 2008)

You have to be kidding " to be continued next week...." What kind of cruel stuff is that. You suck a guy into your story and then BAM to be continued. Finish the story.


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound ?....Don't ask TT he is at home getting more wedges :lol:


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## Juniperlampguy (Nov 11, 2007)

Well, at least we know you lived through the ordeal:yes:. Look forward to the rest of the story.:smile:


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

I am sure that cedar is nice, trusting your Jedi logging powers. But why again is this persimmon still standing ? I bet that would have fell right down.


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

That persimmon tricked you! That little whisper that the cedar was solid did not come from your mind. The persimmon's 6th sense told it you would waste all day on the cedar and not be able to cut it:laughing:. I would cut it down out of spite, now. This is where one of those timber jacks would come in handy though.


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## Kirk Allen (Nov 7, 2006)

If your not in the cedar market much anymore why cut it down now versus letting it grow some more and cut it when you need it?


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I was not really going to leave it hanging for a week termite. :devil: Planned on finishing it a few minutes later but the vortex of sequences struck again. But if I had planned on it, I would have changed my mind because you did not sound happy. :cursing:

Daren, that persimmon is another standing dead. Lot's of them right there in that one area, but less than 100' away there is a batch of healthy ones a little larger too. I left that in the picture guessin you or clod would be the one to tell me I can't see the forest for the trees. :yes:

Jeffery, I never thought of sneaky subliminal persimmons, but I'm glad you did. You'll see why in a minute.

Where were we now? Oh yeah wedges and javelinas. So I drove the wedges home until they were buried once again. Still, no snap, crackle, pop. But, with the last couple of swings of the maul I heard some deep guttural tension-release and you could just feel the stress wanting to release. 

Then I finally got a smart gust, and I stood back thinking this was it, but no fat lady. The other trees were too much wind break since we were too far into the brush, and on top of that she had no foliage to act as a sail, so she stood there defiant, bragging to the dead persimmon how tough she was. :tank:

So back to other dead persimmon . . .stump that is. I didn't cut a wedge this time though . . . I cut a wedge-extension. Just a mini-slab about ¾" thick. 









I lined it up and gave the wedge that was the least furthest in, a nice tap to get it started . . . ."pop". Still no fat lady. So I stood up and hammered the extension a really good one and POP! CRAaaaaaAAACK!!! :scooter: time to scoot ..... 









I'm glad jeffery established the fact that my Jedi Logging powers have not waned, but i was in fact put under a spell by the clever, yet cunning persimmon which had temporarily neutralized my powers as if it were a sea siren. This tree is not solid as i had hoped, but it is not rotten relative to how bad this species commonly gets at this age and size. The butt log alone will give well over 100BF, maybe 150BF even counting the rot and high waste factor inherent in this species. The log volume calculator will tell you 250BF in a log this size, but that is not accurate for cedar. 









With the 9½' long butt log rolled aside, you can see she is in pretty good shape. It will yield a great deal of fantastic lumber. We use cedar around the property for storage sheds, siding, and everything imaginable. I like to keep several thousand BF of this species on hand at all times. I won't leave a cedar tree this size standing if there is a use for it. Even if it had been solid as a rock, it will not remain so long. They start going downhill fast (heart rot) once this size and even smaller, and it's a waste to pass them up unless you cannot put them to use later down the road. 









Now, what was it I came here for anyway . . . . . . . . . .


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Daren said:


> If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound ?....Don't ask TT he is at home getting more wedges :lol:


unt-uh, i make 'em on the fly. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## dirtclod (May 7, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> Now, what was it I came here for anyway . . . . . . . . . .


You went all that way just to show us how to get a saw stuck! You sure are a thorough teacher. 

Don't feel bad - I had 4 saws with me one day. I was cutting an ash tree that wedged between two others when it hit the ground. It formed an "S" in the fat limb I wanted to cut. First I got one stuck. Then got another stuck trying to free the first one. Then the other two wouldn't start until I had an audience. Then I got a third stuck trying to get the first two free. Someone had pity on me and used the last saw to free the others.


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## AZ Termite (Dec 20, 2008)

TT, that was ment as a joke. I guess I should have used some smilies sorry. Being that I have no real sawyer skills ,it is cool to hear stories like that.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

TT,
Good story with a good ending. I had something happen like that years ago while building my first house. Only I didn't really know what I was doing.
The day was January 18th, day before my wife's birthday. I had just completed buying the lot from the developer across the street at the model home. Since my uncles were doing the excavating, and giving me a good break on the price, I thought I would do them a favor and cut down some of the trees. So I take my stihl farm boss and proceeded to cut about 8-10 small trees that I could drop and drag out of the way. So now I'm into the next bigger size trees. I pick one like you did that had a clear path to fall north. It was about 12" diameter and fairly tall. I cut the wedge and started the backcut. I left 2-3" for the hinge, and nothing happened. I didn't know about wedges, I thought those were for holding doors open. I cut a little more and a little more and suddenly went through the hinge. Next, everything happened in slow motion. I had been standing on the south side of the tree. I stepped to the east side of it as it started falling to the west, right towards the neighbor's house. As I am quickly trying to gauge the height of the tree and the distance to the house, the tree lands on the neighbor's house. A split second later, there was a dead limb coming off another tree that had been lying on the tree I cut. It was about 6" by 20'. It came crashing down, brushing my left shoulder but it hit my ankle, busting it up pretty good. Had I not moved, it would have hit me right in the head. I tried to walk through about a foot of snow towards the street, using the chainsaw as a cane. That worked for about ten feet. I laid there for about ten minutes until someone came out of the model house. I hollered for help and a few minutes later the rescue squad showed up. One of the guys on the squad I went to fire school with. He still harasses me to this day about cutting trees. It took the best part of a year for my ankle to get back to normal. Twenty years later I had to get the pin and screw taken out when they started acting up. Needless to say, I don't cut any trees down anymore. I'll leave that to you guys. 
Mike Hawkins


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## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

dirtclod said:


> You went all that way just to show us how to get a saw stuck!
> 
> First I got one stuck. Then got another stuck trying to free the first one. Then the other two wouldn't start until *I had an audience*. Then I got a third stuck trying to get the first two free.


I was going to leave that one alone to see who else commented. I figured I already knew since I had talked to Kevin on the cell about other business at the time of the stuck saw. "Hey man what's up ?" 
"Oh, not much just having a sandwich, stupid persimmon sat right down on my saw. I am fixin' to get her unpinched here pretty quick"

:laughing: Ain't that the way it always goes, the audience part. Not that we don't get saws, wedges, straps...whatever hung up. But it never fails when I have just about every tool hung up at once I have a crowd to "help" me with their suggestions on how to get out of the pickle .


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

dirtclod said:


> You went all that way just to show us how to get a saw stuck! You sure are a thorough teacher.


Did I say the saw was stuck? :detective:



dirtclod said:


> It formed an "S" in the fat limb I wanted to cut.


 I can picture this. You were so worried about getting swatted into the next county that's all you could think about. :wheelchair: I hate cutting big limbs with that much stored energy. Eevn small ones. Sometimes you just touch it with the saw and it goes ballistic. 



AZ Termite said:


> TT, that was ment as a joke. I guess I should have used some smilies sorry. Being that I have no real sawyer skills ,it is cool to hear stories like that


 I knew that mite. I was funnin back at ya. 



firehawkmph said:


> TT,
> . . I had something happen like that years ago while building my first house. Only I didn't really know what I was doing.


 Are you insinuating that I *did* know what i was doing? :laughing:

Mike on a serious note that is a harrowing experience. Logging is inherently dangerous even when you do everything correct, and even when everything is going well by all appearances. Although I am not a professional logger by the definitive term, I do observe every possible attention to detail, and I have educated myself over the years. Not that i know it all, bu no means do i think that. Experienced loggers go to Paul Bunyan Heaven all the time. 

Just a few pointers on your experience. Once a tree begins to fall, you should exit the area using your pre-planned escape route. This route should have been cleared of branches and vines and any other obstruction. I know that I probably look like a scared jack rabbit once I light out, but I don't care. Widow makers drop generally when the tree gets it's first good jolt from the tension release and I am Warp 10 by then unless I didn't see it coming. 

I'm not going to critique everything you detailed but I am just glad you didn't get hit by that branch square on. I had a very similar experience but it was a tree not a branch. I'll leave that one for another time. 

I know my story had an anti-climactic ending, but I told it in a way that i was hoping would bring some of us out of the qwoodwork and liven things up a bit. Thanks for reading and commenting fellas. Someone else's turn now I got work to do. :icon_cheesygin:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> Once a tree begins to fall, you should exit the area using your pre-planned escape route. This route should have been cleared of branches and vines and any other obstruction.


I'm probably being over-zealous in feeling like I should mention this, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. What is just as important as your pre-planned route, is an alternative escape route. 

Anyone who's has done any amount of logging can tell you, one day that tree is going to start it's lean, and there will be that split second of _cognizant dissonance_ when your brain says "this is not happening". The tree has decided to fall on or near your primary escape route.  :yes:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

TT,
I did have room to run, but funny thing was, I never looked up at the other trees that were surrounding it. And when the tree started to fall, other than the fact it fell in a different direction, it didn't do anything that would make you run. Now that branch, that's another story. I'll tell you what, that was 1983, and to this day, if someone was going to drop a big tree, I leave. Don't want to be anywhere nearby.
Mike Hawkins


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## tribalwind (Dec 7, 2008)

that cedar'd make quite a few native flutes .
nice stuff! :thumbsup:


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## Juniperlampguy (Nov 11, 2007)

I've had my saw stuck so bad a few times that I ran out of wedges and had to go home and bring back a come-a-long, some rope, pulley and chains.

If anyone tries this, make sure you anchor the pulley in a manner so that you are pulling the tree away from you:yes:, and not toward you.:no:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Juniperlampguy said:


> . . .
> If anyone tries this, make sure you anchor the pulley in a manner so that you are pulling the tree away from you:yes:, and not toward you.:no:


It sounds like there's more to this story. Probably the good part. :yes:


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## Juniperlampguy (Nov 11, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> It sounds like there's more to this story. Probably the good part. :yes:


:laughing::laughing: Was it that obvious? I don't admit to everything.:no:

It's amazing after breaking pry bars and wedges, how little effort it takes with a come-a-long to get that tree to come down.


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## SawDustJack (Nov 6, 2006)

You guys really arent insinuating that a orange chainsaw can get stuck ?? 

Not that shade of orange anyways .. I agree , the persimmon sat on it .. :thumbsup:


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## rok3269 (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey Guys, Fairly new to the forum and I was browsing the topics when I came across this one and had to add my experience with stored energy and a falling tree....

It was back in 1975 & I was very young at the time.. maybe 14 yrs. old, my dad was cutting down some trees that were too close to the house and dying anyways, it was very uneventful and very kool, to help dad by lugging the ropes and chainsaw for him and everything was going good until the last tree fell, and me, in my adolescent stupidity was standing about 5 feet away from an old oak tree as it fell.
My dad yells at me to get away from the tree and I turned towards him as he yelled, probably wondering why he was yelling when the stored energy within the tree broke free and caused the stump end of the tree to kick up and around.

Let me tell you I got the scare & the ride of my life when that big old oak came around in a half moon arc swept my legs out from under me and lifted me 6 1/2 feet into the air then dropped me down onto the ground, still sitting on the tree, Everything was very quiet for about 4 seconds then the pain set in, my dad yelled again and I did my best Olympic sprinter impersonation away from the tree as it rocked a little and settled.
Believe me stored energy is not always just in the branches, but also in the rest of the tree too!!!.

To this day I am not afraid to take a tree, but I will be the first one back at the truck when it starts to fall.

And recently I dropped a small Oak onto the roof of my house, but that's another story.

Mario


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Mario welcome to the forum! 

Man I got chills visualizing your close call. It sounds like the tree did what is called a "barber chair"? I have a hard time visualizing things from words but plenty of loggers have been maimed/killed because of getting whacked when a tree barber chairs. 

This usually happens when the tree has a lot of energy built up along the axis of the tree. Compression wood on wood side and tension on the opposite. It can be because it's a heavy leaner, or has a lot of top weight concentrated on one side. If a tree is hollow that can add fuel to the fire when the back cut is started. Was this something like the situation with the oak in question? 

How about go to the Introduction section and tell us a little about yourself. A woodworker? Logger? Have a mill? Details man details!


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## rok3269 (Feb 4, 2009)

TexasTimbers said:


> Mario welcome to the forum!
> 
> Man I got chills visualizing your close call. It sounds like the tree did what is called a "barber chair"? I have a hard time visualizing things from words but plenty of loggers have been maimed/killed because of getting whacked when a tree barber chairs.
> 
> This usually happens when the tree has a lot of energy built up along the axis of the tree. Compression wood on wood side and tension on the opposite. It can be because it's a heavy leaner, or has a lot of top weight concentrated on one side. If a tree is hollow that can add fuel to the fire when the back cut is started. Was this something like the situation with the oak in question?


The tree in question is actually 3 of the things you listed above...
1) Top Heavy, the tree was over around 250 - 300 feet tall with no branches until the top third at the most.
2) Hollowed Center, this tree and another about 25 feet away from it had been eaten out by ants. During the summer if you were outside at the right time you culd watch the ants climb down one tree and up the other, they had a hole about 12 feet up from the bottom and from there ate their way downwards.
3) Leaning, The tree had a slight lean into the yard but because of the height and, we didn't know it at the time, the ants it would lean alot when the wind really blew.

The reason the tree was taken down was because my brother and I had told my dad about seeing the ants going from tree to tree, and that area was where we stored all our firewood for the winter.

When the tree fell it covered almost the entire width of my back yard ending inside my mothers flower garden.
It took out most of the plants there but for some strange reason, it seemed to wrap itself around her statue of the virgin mary, missing it completely.... I still think about that more than anything else to this day.

on my way to the noob forum for a porper howdy doo!!


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## BudK (Mar 6, 2007)

Good story Texas ,:thumbsup:

Mario , your story reminds of when I helped out a friend by taking out a BIG old Maple between his above ground pool and garage , about 4' clearance between the two . Rope an saddle work went well & I chunked it down to about a 6' stub and roped it to fall between . Beautiful tree ; wanted to use some of it .
Can you see where this is going ? :yes:
Stored energy in the wood made it jump off the stump the wrong way . Bounced off the garage onto the pool ...oops. It jumped sideways ! Mini tsunami .
Tomato , Bean plants , Arugila(sp?) washing down the driveway . That Redwood fencing around the pool moves pretty fast , in slow motion .
The neighbor , grabbing her gas grill , screaming in Italian God knows what, & retreating to the garage . 
.....I believe mayhem would describe it nicely .

:boat:

Jay , laughing popped 2 beer's and gave me one . said "Happy birthday ,Chuck !"
.

Oh man ...

Buddy


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## BudK (Mar 6, 2007)

Yeah , I made good .


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## Steve Clardy (Oct 20, 2007)

Good stories ya'll :laughing:

Tex. I'ma wondering why you did not stack your 2 wedges on top of each other on the big cedar.:smile:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Steve Clardy said:


> Tex. I'ma wondering why you did not stack your 2 wedges on top of each other on the big cedar.:smile:


Cause that was the first tree I ever cut down and didn't think of that. :stuart:

I had a pretty good swirling wind that day with some decent gales every now and then too. I was afraid if it started moving parallel to the hinge wood too much, it would shear the hinge. ERC is very brittle and pulls apart relatively easily so when you fall a large one, you have to take into account all these things. 

Had I started wedging in just one point, the center of the back cut in this case, that would have _aided_ the tree in getting a yawing action going, and maybe fall in the wrong direction. I had to raise the tree alright but I had to support both sides of it as I did or else one single lifting point would have been nothing more than a fulcrum on which the mutha could start to seesaw and tip over, getting hung up in the nearby trees on both sides, and knocking several branches off all trees invloved and throwing them at me in the process. 

When you are falling large trees in wind, and especially a species like ERC which is susceptible to premature hinge failure anyway, you have to keep your thinking cap on (or you could be wearing a 3 ton tree for a dunce cap). :lol:


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## Steve Clardy (Oct 20, 2007)

Yep. Good thinking. I understand that.

I see that the butt log center [heart] wasn't in fantastic shape either.
Not a lot of good wood there to hold things proper when felling.


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## Dean Miller (Jan 29, 2009)

I worked for a small logging outfit one summer. Hung up a tree in another one. Decided I would knock it out with the next one down the hill. While cutting the next one the first one landed about four feet from me. I would have been a grease spot. Logging is dangerous especially for dimwits.


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## Nomes (Mar 21, 2009)

Walk up close to the tree Look up and see what way it leans. That is the way you want to fall it. Cut a wedge out of the leaning side( at least 1/3 of the way threw the tree) cut slightly higher than the wedge point, make sure your second cut stays above wedge point by 3" to 5" That way you keeping the tree from barber chairing on you. Be careful that the branches don't kick the tree butt back at you.
If you want to swing the tree away from the leaning way cut a small wedge in the tree and another larger one in the direction you want the tree to go. If you want to swing the tree to the right make the bigger wedge to the right of the smaller one try not to cut all the way threw the bark on the right side of the tree it helps swing it.
By the way I don't use Plastic or metal wedges to tip a tree. If you want to know how to do just ask:yes:


How are your math skills?:sleep1:
If you had three big pine trees and a bear dumped under one a squirrel under the next and a fox under the third WHAT WOULD THAT =


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Nomes said:


> If you want to know how to do just ask:yes:


Like the title of my post said . . . . 

"How *NOT *to drop a big cedar."


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## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

Now I have a cedar story too! It is not a very big cedar, but it is dead. Leaned over my creek a little, so I used a wedge in it. Once it got straight up and down, it sank enough for the dirt to hold it upright. I had one pissed nutria swimming away in the creek, too. I guess it had dug its home around/under the roots of the tree 5 feet from the bank. Conibear time, can't have those suckers digging holes in my dam or undermining creek side trees.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

_"Now I have a cedar story too! "_

It don't count without pictures. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## Travis Lib (Apr 1, 2009)

If You had borecut these trees would would have had no problem @ all. Lucky you didint get killed


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Travis Lib said:


> If You had borecut these trees would would have had no problem @ all. Lucky you didint get killed


I can't argue using a bore cut in hindsight. The reason I didn't is because even though I thought this tree was solid, ERC is usually hollow at this size. Not a little hollow, this species can be nothing more than a shell at this size. I don't like a bore cut for that situation. 

Seasoned loggers get killed routinely. Anytime you walk away from a fall without being injured, you should consider yourself lucky to a certain extent. Anything can happen without warning. 

I actually prefer a bore cut in most situations.


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## Pianist93 (Jan 25, 2009)

If a man speaks in a forest and there are no women around to hear him, is he still wrong?


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## Steve Clardy (Oct 20, 2007)

I'd check that question box as a Yes. :laughing:

Some of them think we are wrong to breathe :laughing::laughing:


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