# Sharpening with sandpaper?



## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

I recieved a new set of narex chisels as gift for Christmas. I was looking into sharpening and honing before I started using and decided to use a scary sharp method with sandpaper. I stopped today at a glass shop and "ordered" a peice of glass. Well the cutting guys were out to lunch and the office lady was only one there so I have to go back tommorow to pick it up. Anway, I was wanting to know to what grit sandpaper do I need to use to make these tools sharp enough to use. I picked up some wet/dry sandpaper from 320 all the way up to 2500. Is that 2500 high enough or do I need to get a little higher? Thanks for any suggestions.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

preacherman said:


> I picked up some wet/dry sandpaper from 320 all the way up to 2500. Is that 2500 high enough or do I need to get a little higher? Thanks for any suggestions.


If the edge is good with no dings you can start at 320.

If you have dings to remove, this means taking away metal, and I would start with 120 or even 80 if really rough.

I have had some really bad edges on plane blade restorations which needed a lot of metal to be removed . Combination of dings, pits from rust and just bad sharpening.

Stop at whatever grit you feel is sharp enough. 600, 800 etc.

2500 will be nice and polished. It will not stay this sharp for long with normal use.

FYI, I do not glue the paper down, I just wet it on both sides. It stays put enough for sharpening and then I remove for the next grit.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

Dave,

What do you wet with? When I'm doing scary sharp on my granite piece I have to use some scraps to hold the paper down flat or it curls up when I've used a spray bottle of water. Is this likely just crappy wet/dry paper? I've been getting better at using my planes and scrapers but am still a beginner on the sharpening techniques.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm sure Dave will be along in a min but I'll interject. I use about 10-15% green cleaner and water. It works very well and it's the same mix I use for wet sanding furniture finishes.

As for curling paper, the top dries before the bottom and it curls... Just like wood warps under the same conditions.


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## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks Dave for the reply! The reason I have 320 to start with is I also have a grizzly slow speed grinder (tormek copy) but the wheel is just 220 grit and its ok for lathe tools and getting a good start on hand tools but I want my hand chisels sharp. Thanks for the heads up about the edge not staying that sharp long. I would rather touch up the edge often than have a semi-sharp tool though.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I currently use that 3M WetOrDry paper in 400 and 800 grit. I stick them to a flat ceramic tile and use windex for the lubricant, and I hand sharpen them with no jig. My chisels come out really sharp. I'm sure there are other methods of sharpening that result in sharper blades, but they are sharper now than they have ever been.

The 800 grit really polishes them nicely.


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## jlperrigan (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for the great ideas, its why i love this site


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I go up to 2500x then a leather strop. Maybe it's overkill but it only take a quick strop to restore a sharper than sharp edge. I do that a few times then spend maybe 2 min on the 2500x again to get it back to sharper than sharp. 

Touching up an edge us easy once you get there the first time and maintain that.

It all depends on what you want from your tools.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

Ah, so I am just not using enough lubricant? That will be a bit messier but I'll give it a try.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

firemedic said:


> I go up to 2500x then a leather strop. Maybe it's overkill but it only take a quick strop to restore a sharper than sharp edge. I do that a few times then spend maybe 2 min on the 2500x again to get it back to sharper than sharp.
> 
> Touching up an edge us easy once you get there the first time and maintain that.
> 
> It all depends on what you want from your tools.


I bought a leather stop today off ebay, and some 1200 grip WetOrDry paper.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I've been wood carving for years. "Carving sharp" was something to learn.
Ask yourself: "What does this edge need to do?"
a) you have got to figure out what the necessary bevel angle is for that tool edge to do the job. Hence a barber's straight razor is not beveled like a knot-busting chisel. You have to be able to hold that bevel angle right through the entire process.
b) I can go from 1500 grit W&D paper to the strop with chromium oxide (green) honing compound and get a glassy cut in woods like birch, western red cedar or pine. That edge lasts maybe 30 minutes then hone again.
c) if I've hit something, I'll start on a 1000 grit water stone, then 4000 then the strop. I really smucked up a 5/35 so jointed the edge on oil stones back past the damage and re-established the bevel and re-did the entire sharpening process.
I do it all by hand. Mind you there are some terrific power systems. They all work.
= = = 
Sand papers are just really thin stones. Chrome green honing compound has a nominal particle size of 0.5 micrometer. Iron and copper oxides are a little smaller, about 0.25 - 0.5 micron. The grit grading systems in Europe, North America and Japan are different from each other. You figure it out. Very roughly speaking, chrome green is about 50,000 grit. Floats my boat.
= = 
I do a lot of carving with crooked knives, they have a sweep to the blade. For all 8 of them, if they need real sharpening, I use 1500 grit paper wrapped around a piece of 3/4" aluminum tubing. The strop is a strip of cereal box cardboard, scrubbed with chrome green, on another piece of that tubing (when it's black, I toss it and make another.) Right now, it's Chocolate Cheerios.

Lots of discussion and argument in wood carving web sites. My contention is just this: pay attention to what you need to get done. Then, pick a sharpening/honing "system" and use it, learn it.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Gilgaron said:


> Dave,
> 
> What do you wet with? When I'm doing scary sharp on my granite piece I have to use some scraps to hold the paper down flat or it curls up when I've used a spray bottle of water. Is this likely just crappy wet/dry paper? I've been getting better at using my planes and scrapers but am still a beginner on the sharpening techniques.


I use a granite slab and wet dry paper of various grits with plain old water.

I wet both sides of the paper.

Previously used paper may have curls and not hold down to the slab initially, but after a few seconds the water surface tension holds it down.


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## JQMack (Sep 24, 2011)

OK. I've been trying to find glass and haven't found anything cheap or readily available in the area. Would an acrylic sheet glued to a ceramic tile make a good substitute?


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

I think acrylic would very easily scratch/gouge and hold particles from the sandpaper. It's probably too soft. Rather than purchasing a thick piece of glass, I took an old broken picture window, cut two pieces of the size I wanted and glued them together. 

Is it as flat as an expensive piece of granite? I'm sure it's not. Do I care or notice? No.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

JQMack said:


> OK. I've been trying to find glass and haven't found anything cheap or readily available in the area. Would an acrylic sheet glued to a ceramic tile make a good substitute?


Go to a local glass shop and ask if they have a cut-offs bin. Tell em what you doing with it... They'll likely just give you a piece.


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## railaw (Nov 15, 2011)

firemedic said:


> I go up to 2500x then a leather strop. Maybe it's overkill but it only take a quick strop to restore a sharper than sharp edge. I do that a few times then spend maybe 2 min on the 2500x again to get it back to sharper than sharp.
> 
> Touching up an edge us easy once you get there the first time and maintain that.
> 
> It all depends on what you want from your tools.


 
How do you make sure you re-hone at the same agle every time? 

I've been figuring that I need to make a little jig that will consist of a stop the proper distance from the edge of my eclipse style sharpening jig to set it against (after figuring out what the proper distance is for each angle I want).


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

I use a jig when refurbishing an old chisel or iron. Not much after that. I guess it's muscle memory.

I don't every stress over it. It's just not on my list of things worth fretting over. 25 deg and 26 deg aren't going to feel or perform all that different for a chisel.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

JQMack said:


> OK. I've been trying to find glass and haven't found anything cheap or readily available in the area. Would an acrylic sheet glued to a ceramic tile make a good substitute?


If you cannot find glass or a piece of granite, I would use a piece of MDF sealed with just about anything.

Acrylic is too soft, it will scratch and soon will not be flat.

A piece of flat scrap wood is better than acrylic.

You could even use glass from e.g., a picture frame on top of a piece of MDF. Much better than acrylic.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

railaw said:


> How do you make sure you re-hone at the same agle every time?
> 
> I've been figuring that I need to make a little jig that will consist of a stop the proper distance from the edge of my eclipse style sharpening jig to set it against (after figuring out what the proper distance is for each angle I want).


I know folks like Firemedic and Paul Sellers have the muscle memory, but I do not.

I am not worried about a difference in degree. I do know that if I free hand I do not get a flat surface. Too easy to get a curved edge.

I happen to use a Lee Valley Mark II Honing jig. Works for me until such time I am able to develop the muscle memory.


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Dave, I couldn't get chisels right to save my life, initially. But wider edges like plane irons are much much easier. That's probably a good place to concentrate on for free hand technique.

But if the jig ain't broke, don't fix it - right? :smile:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Look. 
1. The glass sheet does not have to be optically flat. Anything hard and unforgiving will do as a substrate. Like I said: aluminum tubing and Cheerios box cardboard is better than anything you can buy.
2. Paint a bunch of stripes with black felt marker on the bevel. That shows you how and where the metal is coming off.
3. On cards, maybe 5 x 7, I drew the angles that I MUST hold through the entire process. They stand beside my stones and hones.
4. You match the tool shank to the angle. You lock your elbows tight to your sides.
You do a pull stroke. STOP. You gotta lift the tool edge straight up. Back up to the front, down, and go again (did you look at the marker to see what you just did?)
5. If you think it's fancy to sweep the bevel up off the sharpening medium OR to flex your elbows, you round off a 20 degree bevel to 40+ which is crap.
6. I am no longer willing to waste my time upscrewing the sharpening of a $50+ gouge which I need RIGHT NOW for flattening the surface on a carving.


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## JQMack (Sep 24, 2011)

If you were going to seal MDF, what would be a good way to do that?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

JQMack said:


> If you were going to seal MDF, what would be a good way to do that?


formica laminate or epoxy paint should work


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I am thinking about making my own honing station with a VSS drill and a good flat piece of wood. ply would be a good choice for it because it is more stable.

3M sells paper that has adhesive on the back (it's called StikIt), which makes it a very simple matter to replace the paper when necessary. i bought a few packs of it yesterday off amazon.

Then it should be a simple matter to turn the drill on slow and use a honing jig. that would make it easy, fast, and right every time.

I know there are stations out there already you can buy, but I am very frugal.


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## preacherman (Nov 29, 2011)

Well I picked up my glass this morning and going to try to sharpen my chisels tonight. Thanks for all the pointers and tips in this thread!


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> I am thinking about making my own honing station with a VSS drill and a good flat piece of wood. ply would be a good choice for it because it is more stable.
> 
> 3M sells paper that has adhesive on the back (it's called StikIt), which makes it a very simple matter to replace the paper when necessary. i bought a few packs of it yesterday off amazon.
> 
> ...


Chris, just a couple of observations about your plan. Why bother to try and build a mechanized station when you have all you need for sharpening. If you already have a honing jig, all you really need is a flat surface for the sandpaper. 

Unless you are needing to do a lot of grinding on a lot of different plane irons or chisels I don't see how your station will speed things up for you. It may take a little time to establish your desired bevel on used iron that has been abused, but once you do, It takes maybe a minute to resharpen/hone iron that is in use. I think it would take you much longer to set up and try to use your mechanized station.

I don't think you'll get acceptable results trying to attach a plywood disc to the end of a drill. It just won't be stable enough (or flat enough in my opinion). 

Another consideration with mechanized sharpening is lubrication to remove waste and remove heat from the process. How is your plywood going to react to that lubrication liquid (what ever you choose)?

I don't want to sound all negative, but I think you'd be happier and have better results getting a flat surface for sandpaper and doing it all by hand.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

tom, you are probably right on all counts. but i have more time than sense, and i like to play with this kind of stuff, so i might try it anyway just for kicks.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> tom, you are probably right on all counts. but i have more time than sense, and i like to play with this kind of stuff, so i might try it anyway just for kicks.


In that case, go for it:thumbsup: I love to tinker like that as well. Keep us updated with your efforts, we might all learn something:yes:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

My carving strop is hard leather on a stick, maybe 2" x 9"?. I use chrome green.
5 - 8 gentle passes restores the essential "carving-sharp" edge. I have pieces of folded and/or cut hard leather for 1, maybe 2, passes on the inside of the gouge sweep and I'm back to the fun part.
I can't do the crooked knives that way. Hence the pieces of tubing for bases.
Motorized, I suspect that the time and friction would be an enemy.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I work for 3M. Today they had a "pallet sale", where they get a bunch of random stuff from one of the warehouses and sell it really cheap to employees. I was looking specifically for sandpaper I could use for sharpening. 

I scored a 100 pack of 600 grit for $5, a 25 pack of 1500 for $3, a 50 pack of 500 for $2, and a 5 pack of 800 for $1. The 600 grit (the 100 pack) is a "Stikit" too, with the adhesive on the back, so it will be really easy to change it out.

Not bad for $11!


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> Not bad for $11!


Sounds like a good score to me. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> I work for 3M. Today they had a "pallet sale", where they get a bunch of random stuff from one of the warehouses and sell it really cheap to employees. I was looking specifically for sandpaper I could use for sharpening.
> 
> I scored a 100 pack of 600 grit for $5, a 25 pack of 1500 for $3, a 50 pack of 500 for $2, and a 5 pack of 800 for $1. The 600 grit (the 100 pack) is a "Stikit" too, with the adhesive on the back, so it will be really easy to change it out.
> 
> Not bad for $11!


Dang! I need to make friends with someone who works for 3M!


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

firemedic said:


> Dang! I need to make friends with someone who works for 3M!


heh, good luck with that!

now if you sent him goodies (like a rounding plane and vise and other odds and ends), you might have a chance!

:laughing:


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## J Thomas (Aug 14, 2012)

Check around with shops that sell and install granite counter tops.. also check with home centers etc.
Sooner or later they'll have a busted one & you can get a piece of scrap that's too small to rework for their interests.
Cheap is good but free is better!!
You can carefully chisel & break the stone or cut it with a masonry blade on a circ saw to a size & shape you're comfortable with.
I soak my paper in a cookie sheet with plain water and a couple drops of dishwashing liquid. Wet the granite, apply the sandpaper, roll it out with a wallpaper roller & let it dry for a day or so.
I've used this method to true up planes as well as sharpen irons & knives.
If your stone is large enough you can stick down 3-4 different grits. A razor blade scraper & water will remove the paper for replacement.
Happy honing!
..Jon..


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## firemedic (Dec 26, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> heh, good luck with that!
> 
> now if you sent him goodies (like a rounding plane and vise and other odds and ends), you might have a chance!
> 
> :laughing:


:laughing: How bout a box full of gossamer shavings?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

J Thomas said:


> Check around with shops that sell and install granite counter tops.. also check with home centers etc.
> Sooner or later they'll have a busted one & you can get a piece of scrap that's too small to rework for their interests.
> Cheap is good but free is better!!
> You can carefully chisel & break the stone or cut it with a masonry blade on a circ saw to a size & shape you're comfortable with.
> ...


great tip! i've been trying to figure out a good way to attach the paper that will be easy to remove later. this looks like the ticket. but if you could just fill in a couple of minor details ...

about how much water to use with the few drops of soap, and about long do you let the paper soak before applying it to the granite? last question: i assume you take it directly from the soak to the granite (as opposed to letting it dry between)?


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## tcleve4911 (Dec 16, 2006)

I use a dry sandpaper method with 3M spray adhesive to stick the paper to my class and granite.
I clean it off with a sharp chisel and a razor blade.
The only reason I don't use water is because I don't want the mess.
Granite backsplash material works great and I try to get glass at 3-1/2 " wide.

Note: I pass my chisels and plane irons across the sandpaper sideways.
By using the narrower pieces of glass, there's room for the handle to clear as I'm flattening the back....which is one of the most important parts of sharpening :yes:


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## J Thomas (Aug 14, 2012)

@Chris...
There's no particular ratio on the soap to water.. Enough water to completely submerge the paper and a couple drops of soap to break the surface tension.
You're not looking to make suds here so a few drops are sufficient.
Wet your granite with some of the same water that has the soap in it..
I usually soak the paper for a half hour more or less.
Apply it directly to the stone & roll out any air bubbles. Sop up excess water with a paper towel & let it thoroughly dry.. (overnight at least)
When you sharpen.. you can wet the paper again. Just don't flood it. Occasionally I'll have one come loose but it's usually from using way to much water.
When you want to remove it... flood it & add another few drops of soap.. let it soak awhile & a razor blade will peel it right up.
Hit the stone with some windex for a cleaning & you're ready to set your next paper on.
Like anything else.. once you've done it a few times you'll have no problems.
Another source to check is monument companies (gravestones) Sooner or later they'll break something you might scrounge up.
Good Luck.
..Jon..


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

thanks jon.

i was at home depot again (i go there alot!), and i came across some nice thick glass in the bathroom tile section. they are not expensive. they also have marble floor tiles that are flat and smooth for a few dollars apiece. the last thing i noticed was the they have some glossy porcelain tile that would be good. 

they actually had a piece of the porcelain that was broken, and they gave it to me.


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