# Bessler's Wheel



## J_Lindgaard

This is a project I've worked on the last couple of years. Had cancer 5 years ago and found out my doctors were the Marx Bros. Needless to say, that gave me time to sit home and consider Bessler's work.
It's supposed to be impossible but figure if it works, then I could have me a hobby, like learning proper wood working techniques to improve the quality of the build.
I told one woman I know that one of the reasons for a project like this is that I became 1/2 deaf in one ear while serving in the Navy in peace time. Needless to say, people don't think I deserve a life.
Still, will be doing a little bit on this each day until it is finished. It's just that trying to think of a good way to seal bellows while using the bellow as a hinge also kind of makes things interesting.
While I would've preferred to have been in better health to have a better go of it, might as well do what I can.
Some of the math in metrics is in Bessler's drawing and of course, the picture of that thing on my work bench is what I'm building. It's based on the principle that a weighted lever can open a bellow causing it to work like a pump and draw water into it.
Like I said, this thing working is something considered impossible but thanks to my hearing loss, I needed a good challenge.


----------



## NetDoc

Good luck with it. I don't think there's such a thing as perpetual motion (except for my cat at times), but I will be watching your progress with interest.


----------



## TomC

NetDoc said:


> Good luck with it. I don't think there's such a thing as perpetual motion (except for my cat at times), but I will be watching your progress with interest.


 Yel perpetual motion! Reminds me of a coworker who said he had figured out how to keep a heat pump for freezing in the winter. He said he was going to put the outside unit in his basement. I told him you will cool the basement off and it would not work. He said he had that figured out he was going to run a heating duct back to the basement. After that I just gave up.
Tom


----------



## Adillo303

NetDoc said:


> I don't think there's such a thing as perpetual motion (except for my cat at times.


I would like to place Labrador Retriever puppies in that class as well.

Very interesting project. I too wish you success.


----------



## Timothy

Well, there are some folks that have had limited success with magnet motors which are a quasi type of perpetual motion machine. I even played with one in my shop last year. I'm going back to it when warm weather comes back. I'm not sure anyone can achieve perpetual motion or over-unity but more power to you if you want to experiment.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Some Info on Bessler*

@All,
I'll give you some information about a guy named Johann Bessler. 
He lived from about 1680 to about 1745. he was also a craftsman. He built wind mills and clocks, and in his time, they were pendulum type.
He wheels were witnessed by various people one of which was Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz helped invent calculus alongside Newton.
The link is to his drawings which number about 143, http://besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20

witnesses; http://besslerwheel.com/accounts.html

With myself, I like the math behind it and in those times, it could be that carpenters/wood craftsmen were also engineers.
A stair way I like with little known of the man behind it; http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html

And with what I believe Bessler knew, that when a bellow opens, water will move from one to the other a greater distance than a weight drops.
This would be because it's the force that opens the bellow and the distance it travels to account for work equals mass times distance.
Except for his wheel, it would have been a more efficient pump for something like a well pump which uses vacuum as a means of being able to work.
With what I am building, most likely I will need to start over. It's simply a matter of learning how to build something like this. 
I know the seal will end up being as simple as a 1/16 in. bead going into a 1/8th in. seat. And placing the bead on a support bracket will ensure it's solid.
I'll upload a drawing of the design I am pursuing. It's something I call The Rolling Cross. I'm planning it as a tribute to those serving in the U.S. military who are away from home.
The name partly comes from the Alabama song Roll On. And if the wheel is stopped with the bellows in line or 90 degrees to the wheels stand, it would form a cross, albeit one with a ring around it.
It's just that with something like this, I find it worth the time to get it right.
And a little bit of the math, if a 1 lb. weight drops 6 inches, it can develop 2 lbs. of force moving 3 inches. When 2 weights work together, only 1 weight would be out of balance. This is because the opposing weight would be 90 degrees to the axis of rotation. You see, if 2 weights are 90 degrees to a set of bellows, they are in balance.
And a bellow would only need to open about 2 inches. Since volume is 3x3/4x18 = 40.5. If a bellow is closed, it holds about 20 in.^3 of water, about 12 ounces. If it opens to 1 1/2 inches, then it holds about 36 ounces of water or 24 more ounces than the opposing bellow.
And the total weight of the water is about 3 lbs. And with a bellow having no air in it would only need a force greater that 3 lbs. to open it. The same principle a modern manual well pump works on.
Kind of why they are so efficient. http://www.survivalunlimited.com/deepwellpump.htm

Still, a wooden machine I guess can be pretty cool if it's done right. :yes:


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*The Rolling Cross Design*

This is what I am working towards. The opposing weights would be connected by using a couple of pulleys. Of course what would be trickier is to hide their connection in the outer rim.
The bellows as I mentioned would be 3 inches wide. And having on nested in the other, their total width or depth would be about 3 3/4 inches.
As far as the hub goes, it can always be a larger diameter to cover the box that the bellows use as a header.
Myself, I think Bessler used lamp oil. If so, it has 80% the mass of water. This could change the dimensions accordingly but doubt it would be necessary. The weights doing the work could weigh less.
With lamp oil, wood might not need to be sealed or treated and if something supple like goat skin were used for the bellows, it would act as a lubricant as well.
And in his time, Bessler could have used pitch when he sewed the skin together where it is also used as a hinge for the moveable bellow tongue. Pitch would have helped seal the bellows and since it the seams length would decrease the load on it per inch, I do think he got it right.
Any way, hope you guys like this.

edited to add; a second picture showing what it might it's final design might look like when working. If the weight at bottom left has swung 3 inches out of balance, the shift in fluid across the axle/hub would have more force.
It's just that as the weight on the bottom left continues to rotate upwards, it will eventually drop. When it does, the weight on the top right will drop as well. And then the fluid in the bellow would move into upwards. And yep, a lot would be going on. Still, for wood working, I think it would be quite unique 
BTW, the levers going left to right and right to left would open the bellow on top. The bottom bellow closes automatically because it would be emptied.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

I can assure you, with 100% certainty that perpetual motion of the type mentioned here is nothing more than a myth. It would require a mechanism with 100% mechanical efficiency, of which none can exist in a universe with like ours.

That being said, I'm going to continue watching your progress intently because I love things like this. Keep us updated as to your progress.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Timothy said:


> Well, there are some folks that have had limited success with magnet motors which are a quasi type of perpetual motion machine. I even played with one in my shop last year. I'm going back to it when warm weather comes back. I'm not sure anyone can achieve perpetual motion or over-unity but more power to you if you want to experiment.


 
Thanks Timothy. I think something Miller Wood Works missed is that the Wright Bros. were flying planes for a couple of years before they got any recognition.
This was primarily because a guy named Langley (Langley AFB, Director of the Smithsonian Institution) failed. And if a noted scientist such as Langley could not realize flight, then it was pretty much considered impossible. Langley's planes crashed into the Potomac.
And while I could have done a crude build, for some of what I'm hoping to accomplish, that wouldn't do.
One thought with magnets is if they are angled, them the push away might be stronger than a field can resist on approach.
And for what might be a unity device, it uses magnets.
A guy named Stefan Hartmann who lives in Germany saw this in person. He owns a forum I used to post in and owns a multimedia business.




 
http://siarchives.si.edu/history/samual-pierpont-langley
http://www.flyingmachines.org/lang.html


----------



## johnep

THe heavens provide perpetual motion in the rotation of the earth, orbit round the sun etc. However, even these are slowing down gradually.

The moon through the tides is slowing the earth rotation.
johnep


----------



## Timothy

J_Lindgaard said:


> Thanks Timothy. I think something Miller Wood Works missed is that the Wright Bros. were flying planes for a couple of years before they got any recognition.
> This was primarily because a guy named Langley (Langley AFB, Director of the Smithsonian Institution) failed. And if a noted scientist such as Langley could not realize flight, then it was pretty much considered impossible. Langley's planes crashed into the Potomac.
> And while I could have done a crude build, for some of what I'm hoping to accomplish, that wouldn't do.
> One thought with magnets is if they are angled, them the push away might be stronger than a field can resist on approach.
> And for what might be a unity device, it uses magnets.
> A guy named Stefan Hartmann who lives in Germany saw this in person. He owns a forum I used to post in and owns a multimedia business.


Even more so, has anyone noticed what a woodworking marvel the Wright brothers plane was? It was created with rudimentary parts just like a piece of furniture. And yet it accomplished a feat the global community said was impossible.

Please be sure to post the results of the action of your gizmo when you test it. I'm fascinated...


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*The Science*



johnep34 said:


> THe heavens provide perpetual motion in the rotation of the earth, orbit round the sun etc. However, even these are slowing down gradually.
> 
> The moon through the tides is slowing the earth rotation.
> johnep


 John,
Generally speaking, the reason given is entropy. With this design, the shifting of fluid will create a greater effect than a weight moving to create it.
What this design does is to manipulate gravity's effect. I think what most might dislike about something like this is how long ago Bessler did it. After all, we are supposed to be more advanced today, right ?
Sometimes, there is no replacing taking the time to think things through. :thumbsup:

@All, may be returning to work around the 6th of Jan. If so, I may restart my build as I have rethought how the seals could be done. Right now, I have water proof material for the initial build.
Of course, if I "restart" the build, it would be to try to build as closely as possible to the design I posted. The one I am working on now would be for learning how to build/assemble something like this,
It's just that getting back to work would allow me to buy a few more tools to help make things easier.

James


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Starting at the Beginning*

The 2 pics are of a some what crude build that I was doing. It's something I could finish so it would be like the drawing in the first post, 2 opposing bellows with 2 levers at 90 degrees. This would basically be proof that Bessler's claims are legitimate. 
Something like that could work. Not sure what sense of humor everyone has but to have had a wood craftsman do what scientists say can't be done I think would be funny. You know, taking things for granted, etc.
By the way, the 2nd pic shows the axle going through the water box. This has to do with how much force is needed to move the water how quickly. This should give a good idea of how well this can work. 
I do have one special build I would like to do. It would be to thank someone for being a friend. 

James


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Timothy said:


> Even more so, has anyone noticed what a woodworking marvel the Wright brothers plane was? It was created with rudimentary parts just like a piece of furniture. And yet it accomplished a feat the global community said was impossible.
> 
> Please be sure to post the results of the action of your gizmo when you test it. I'm fascinated...



Timothy,
I'll be sure to do so. I'm kind of hoping that I can have the bellows completed by next weekend.
Sometimes when I watch shows on history, some of the wood working done is simply amazing. Of course, even some covered bridges are significant because of how they were built.

James


----------



## Acercanto

I think the cool thing about these kind of machines is that even if they aren't true perpetual motion machines, they're still really high efficiency, which would mean that if you forgot about free energy, you could still make a stupidly efficient power generator. I mean, the standard turbine generator (the kind they use in dams and nuclear power plants and such) is probably nowhere as efficient as a machine like this. I'm surprised we don't see electricity generation that looks more like these machines.

Acer


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Charity*



Acercanto said:


> I think the cool thing about these kind of machines is that even if they aren't true perpetual motion machines, they're still really high efficiency, which would mean that if you forgot about free energy, you could still make a stupidly efficient power generator. I mean, the standard turbine generator (the kind they use in dams and nuclear power plants and such) is probably nowhere as efficient as a machine like this. I'm surprised we don't see electricity generation that looks more like these machines.
> 
> Acer


Acer,
I do appreciate your sarcasm. After all, people always seem to take things to seriously, especially when it is not a mainstream project like this one (double entendre if you missed it, it refers to both what I am working on and the idea in the link);
https://water.tallyfox.com/discussions/free-energy-principle

Of course, in the future, desalinated/purified water might be more important than electricity. As far as I know, everybody likes to eat. Could be wrong though :thumbsup:

edited to add; Acer, one person I mentioned who I wouldn't mind doing a special build for is someone I know from work who helped me when I was going through medical problems. It was nice having her support. She is also currently deployed as an officer in the U.S. Navy. That kind of bummed me out because I was hoping to show her what I was talking about. She's how I came up with the Rolling Cross idea, for those serving away from home. You know, like the songs says, Roll On til' you get back home and I am sure all of our Veteran's serving have a home waiting for them.
As for electrical energy generation, I told her that I have a design for wind turbines that could be 30 to 40% more efficient. And if something like that works, it could help to create some jobs for the local economy where I live and since it would be my invention, the patent rights would go to charity. Myself, I need to be able to work and if things work out for me, I wouldn't need the money. You see, I am half deaf in one ear from having served in the Navy during peace time. I have had much time to sit home by myself and read many books from physics to geography to engineering.
I also have a very mechanical background which helps.
Myself, I think because my hearing loss allowed me to be exploited that I do need to disagree with the Veteran's Administration who states that a hearing loss is not ratable because it does not place a person at a disadvantage. I think it is why I received poor quality health care.
Still, hope you stick around and learn something about different ways in which wood can be worked. For what I am doing, it will be a learning process for years to come.

edited to add; it may be possible to hide the levers and the bellows behind a removable or permament façade.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Some Bakground Info*

@All,
Some background info on me. The link is to Carillon Park in Dayton, Ohio. My hometown. Am well versed in what the Wright Bros. went through.
It was often said that if God wanted man to fly, he would have given us wings. It seems instead he have us brains and if someone believes, then they might have a conscience.
With the Wind Turbine idea, I figure in a way, I would be like the Wright Bros. I could develop my own invention by getting my hands dirty building it and testing variations using a wind tunnel which the Wright Bros. used to develop their wing design.
Of course, in all of this I would be more like Bessler, could be both.
But one thing I did learn from all those summer days I spent walking through the museum at Carillon Park was how America went from a farming colony to an industrial giant.
It might surprise some people but machine shops in 1900 had one tube running through the building to power all machines.
Of course, have watched wood working shows where they showed that a wood lathe was treadle powered like those old sewing machines.
Sometimes I think people forget where America came from and how we got to be here, where we are today. It did take a lot of work by people over the years.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*The Basic Idea*

I have permission from John Collins to use his images. And I'll also send him a link to this thread. I think I am one of only 2 people who actually build anything of this type, even for those who support Bessler as I do.
What Mt 125 shows is that if a lever drops, it can open a bellow allowing vacuum to draw water from one side of a wheel to the other.
If the wheel is 3 ft. (1m) in dia., the bellow when it opens, needs to lift the water in the tube as well as the water that would fill it.
If this volume is about 1/2 gal. (2 liters), or a little over 4 lbs. (2 kg's).
The force needed to open the bellow would only need to be 5 lbs. (2.5 kg's). This is because the water is the load placed on the lever.
And this is something that unless you are manually pumping water really doesn't have much application.
But as I mentioned, it can make for a unique application in Woodworking.
And to give everyone an idea, 2 lbs. (1 kg) on a 3 ft. (1m) long lever with the lined attached to the bellow 15 in. (40cm) from the fulcrum would generate 5 lbs. (2.5kg's) of force if the weight drops 6.25 in. (15,625cm's).
And having 2 lbs. (1kg) shift upwards 36 inches (1m) by a weight dropping 6 1/4 (15 5/8cm's) is something that really isn't supposed to happen. And in Mt 125, it would be a slow shift because of the small diameter of the connecting tube.

p.s., with a weight moving 6 inches off center and the weight it's moving to a position about 18 in. off center. And this is using vacuum not compression. Compression would require much more energy to do the same work.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Acer, I do owe you a bit of thanks. I do have some other idea's I'd like to see happen and you reminded me that if I don't stick with what I'm working on, then it'd be a while before anything happens.

@All, one of the differences between vacuum and compression is if water is being siphoned through a tube, then the relationship of the surface area to bellow wouldthe have the same relationship to how much time it would take to siphon water. An example of this is if the surface area of the bellow is 15 sq. in. and the siphon tube has a surface area of 1 sq. in. It's a 15 to 1 ratio. And since the lever is gravity powered, it would move at 1/15th the acceleration of gravity.
And since pressure is the inverse, it would take 15 times the force to pump the same water at the same speed. This is because pressure would be applied to 14 sq. in. that is not preforming work but would only be creating resistance. And that's the difference.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@All,
Will most likely start my build over. And since I am off work because I injured my hand, it'd be best for me to wait until I'm healthy enough to return to work.

Jim

edited to add; doubt it matters but almost cut off 3 fingers trying to work through my medical situation. One may need amputation, don't know yet. Do know I fractured my middle finger because of the pain of my first medical situation.
That's after I almost cut it off. Still, can work with one hand better than most people can work with 2. My hearing loss is a capability :yes:


----------



## Miller Woodworks

I hate to see a build thread dieing, but if you're not in good enough health to work on it, it would be in your best interest to hold off. We'll be patiently awaiting the continuation of your build, and wish you a speedy recovery.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@All,
I have taken apart what work I have done. This is because I am going to use a different sequence for assembling the bellows.
Pics will be posted. One will be to show what hopefully will be a good way to go about this and the other reason is because if someone else wants to try this, they'll have an easier go of it.
One thing I will ask is if someone else does try this to not show the water box (where the bellows are connected) in the same fashion as what I am working on.
I'll also try to have a better attitude while I am working on this. And I will post an explanation of the math as simply as I can put it. There are some things that might be missed and then why it might not work so well would be missed.
And as far as math and force go, I think I will be able to show a basic lever and the force it generates. Since this is a different application, a visual might help. It's that torque per se will not be what is important but the force generated at a specific point on a lever. It's the distance this force/specific point moves that would be work = mass times distance.
The distance the water moves will not be considered as distance but as depth times mass = work. And when the bellow opens, the depth of the water will increase. And it's movement from one bellow to another is a lateral movement. This is basically free movement/motion if the lateral movement of the water is greater than it's depth. 
I think once I can demonstrate 2 bellows working together in such a way will make my last statement seem almost to obvious.


----------



## TonyM

*New science*

James-
Your design is interesting and I wish you luck (and skill). A few years ago I would have argued the laws of physics would negate any chance of “energy-free energy”, or perpetual motion. I’m not so sure now. I want to look at this a bit closer later this evening.

Theories that were set in stone about twenty years ago have now been challenged by new discoveries. It used to be protons, electrons and neutrons. Now there are so many of the little suckers you have to have a lineup card to identify them. The math-physics relationships put forth by Einstein and a few others are now coming under scrutiny. It appears we can’t trust the E=MC2 anymore because some are claiming to be able to prove there is far more energy in the cosmos than originally computed. I’ve always been amazed at how mankind tries to fill in the blanks too quickly. We jump up and claim to know the answer when we don’t even know the right questions. The universe is not 100% predictable and the parameters are yet to be defined. I hope you succeed.

I worked in an R&D area for about ten years while we developed the inkjet pen. The key to it was to develop a process whereas we could “sputter” silicon. We’d sputtered some odd stuff before but nothing like this, a substance that was determined to fracture into many pieces upon cooling. Eventually the engineers found a way to achieve it employing high-vacuum, rare gasses and plasma. Many said it couldn’t be achieved and presented impressive arguments against it. Some of their math looked impeccable. 

A great influence right now is with the “TED Talks” series. They offer up some folks who approach problems from different viewpoints. Have you caught any of those? There might even be a perpetual motion guru amongst the promoters.

Keep at it if your health permits. Good luck in any case.

TonyM.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> I hate to see a build thread dieing, but if you're not in good enough health to work on it, it would be in your best interest to hold off. We'll be patiently awaiting the continuation of your build, and wish you a speedy recovery.


 Thanks. I may need to. I found out that if I carry around with me an 8 oz. bottle of wood glue that my finger seems to stay in place.
I think that's a better option than amputation. And not to mention history again, but few people probably don't know that when the Wright Bros. designed their propeller that it took a cabinet maker to build it.
And with the work done, it took a computer worth millions of dollars to take the propeller from 81% efficiency to 84% efficiency. I think in a way that shows where even good idea's need capable people for them to be realized.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

TonyM said:


> James-
> Your design is interesting and I wish you luck (and skill). A few years ago I would have argued the laws of physics would negate any chance of “energy-free energy”, or perpetual motion. I’m not so sure now. I want to look at this a bit closer later this evening.
> 
> Theories that were set in stone about twenty years ago have now been challenged by new discoveries. It used to be protons, electrons and neutrons. Now there are so many of the little suckers you have to have a lineup card to identify them. The math-physics relationships put forth by Einstein and a few others are now coming under scrutiny. It appears we can’t trust the E=MC2 anymore because some are claiming to be able to prove there is far more energy in the cosmos than originally computed. I’ve always been amazed at how mankind tries to fill in the blanks too quickly. We jump up and claim to know the answer when we don’t even know the right questions. The universe is not 100% predictable and the parameters are yet to be defined. I hope you succeed.
> 
> I worked in an R&D area for about ten years while we developed the inkjet pen. The key to it was to develop a process whereas we could “sputter” silicon. We’d sputtered some odd stuff before but nothing like this, a substance that was determined to fracture into many pieces upon cooling. Eventually the engineers found a way to achieve it employing high-vacuum, rare gasses and plasma. Many said it couldn’t be achieved and presented impressive arguments against it. Some of their math looked impeccable.
> 
> A great influence right now is with the “TED Talks” series. They offer up some folks who approach problems from different viewpoints. Have you caught any of those? There might even be a perpetual motion guru amongst the promoters.
> 
> Keep at it if your health permits. Good luck in any case.
> 
> TonyM.


 Tony,
I am simply amazed by your work. And while those Duisenberg's are awesome, I think I like your telescope the best.
One thing I think is sometimes missed in physics is that Einstein was more concerned about the behavior of light (wave energy) while Schroedinger was more concerned with quantifying matter. Almost goes back to Newton and Keppler. Relativity and Quantum Mechanics while competing against each other might actually be 2 different disciplines in physics. 
I think with Einstein's E=MC^2 that it merely represents linear momentum times angular momentum, the potential of a photon.
I sent a message to someone I know this morning who is an officer in the U.S. Navy. I told them that one design I have (I use their initials) would need their support. It's that the Veteran's Administration does not consider a hearing loss to be a ratable disability and a part of my effort is trying to change that policy.
One of the reasons why I mention this is with your skill, if what I do works, I may be asking you what it would take to get that one specific wheel built.
I do have a more basic pm model that uses 2 opposing weights that are round. The weights would need to roll. I'll draw it and post it in another design thread.
While it is a fairly simple design, the testing I have done suggests it will work. But there is one thing I have always maintained, as with any invention of mine, the patent rights will go to charity.
The reason I am able to take such a position is that for me, by walking away from the money I would have a better life.
Here's a link to the test that I did it. 



 
With the math, if a weight is retracted 20% (rolls inward) as it swings down, then at the bottom of it's swing, it would be counter balanced by the opposing weight which then would be said to be conserving energy.
Basically, when one weight accelerates the other one, momentum is conserved and in a balanced state, minimal energy would be needed to continue it's motion.
The design uses a 1/4 round. What people miss is that if a weight is rolling, there is minimal friction. That and while it is rolling to a position of balance, it is still moving downward generating force.
The trick is, the weight does not have to be lifted because it is not allowed to drop below a position of balance. This only allows a weight to be over balanced.

p.s., With the Standard Model in physics, they have stars moving at such velocity that they should suffer catastrophic entropy but do not. So you are right, many questions still left to be answered :smile:


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Work Update*

This is a pic of where I'm at now. I decided to basically start over.
And instead of buying more wood, I decided to use what I had and change it up a bit.
The bellows will end up being almost 3 1/2 inches wide. What this means is that I'll be able to use lamp oil. Might save treating the wood. If so, could be what Bessler did.
I still have some more parts to make but as I mentioned, will need to wait and give my finger a chance to heal. This is something that I think by the time I am able to finish it, there will be a few others wanting to try it.
And if so, I think that's something that Bessler would have liked. You know, seeing people enjoy messing around with his wheel.

Jim

edited to add; @All, for me, wood working is a hobby that I am looking forward to enjoying. But there is something that I am hoping to be able to do. You see, I think I may have upset the one person I have referenced by letting them know that I believe there might be a food shortage in the U.S.A. within the next 50 years.
The reason for this is the slow depletion of the Ogallala Aquifer. It takes water to grow crops, pretty basic. What I have done is to consider how to restore that aquifer as well as any other water table that is being depleted. America's population is expected to grow by at least 100 million people in the next 50 years.
Get it ? Our water resources are going in one direction while our population is going the opposite way. And what being successful with my hobby would do is allow me to make know design improvements in wind turbines/energy transfer and desalination. 
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/150159/

And I think that if what I know is correct, I would be able to earn a decent living developing more efficient systems, why I would be able to give the patent rights away. It's a lesson I learned from my father who became a business manager (he was from Norway and did go to college), he missed working. It's what he loved to do. Could be why you guys like your wood working, it's something that you do and can take pride in.
And a good song:


----------



## TonyM

*thinking*

James-
I'll help in any way I can. I'm horrible on math. I made it through college using vector analysis methods. 

I want to read a bit more before commenting in more detail. It could take me a few days.

In the meantime have you looked at any sliding vane vacuum pumps, often called diffusion pumps? You probably know this but a lot of hi-tech places use these in line with a cryo-pump to get down to a real empty vacuum. If the pump leaks internally you can pump all day and get nowhere so they have to figure out a way to keep a constant negative pressure on the pumping mechanism, in this case a series of sliding vanes. The cross section of the Bessler wheel is very similar in design. Check them out if you get a chance. Alcatel, Perkin-Elmer and Roots make pumps that can get down to the -6 range. After that they switch to a cryo and they freeze everything. Look 'em up, Could give you some ideas. 

I'll be back.
TonyM


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Thanks*



TonyM said:


> James-
> I'll help in any way I can. I'm horrible on math. I made it through college using vector analysis methods.
> 
> I want to read a bit more before commenting in more detail. It could take me a few days.
> 
> In the meantime have you looked at any sliding vane vacuum pumps, often called diffusion pumps? You probably know this but a lot of hi-tech places use these in line with a cryo-pump to get down to a real empty vacuum. If the pump leaks internally you can pump all day and get nowhere so they have to figure out a way to keep a constant negative pressure on the pumping mechanism, in this case a series of sliding vanes. The cross section of the Bessler wheel is very similar in design. Check them out if you get a chance. Alcatel, Perkin-Elmer and Roots make pumps that can get down to the -6 range. After that they switch to a cryo and they freeze everything. Look 'em up, Could give you some ideas.
> 
> I'll be back.
> TonyM


 I'd appreciate it Tony. Hopefully the drawing helps.


----------



## Acercanto

I apologize if I caused any offense, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I merely meant that even if you miss your goal of "free energy", you're still in the really "really highly efficient" realm, and that in itself is incredibly powerful in our current state of 30% efficient solar cells, 27% efficient petroleum engines, and the like.
I'm following the thread with great interest.

Acer


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Acercanto said:


> I apologize if I caused any offense, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I merely meant that even if you miss your goal of "free energy", you're still in the really "really highly efficient" realm, and that in itself is incredibly powerful in our current state of 30% efficient solar cells, 27% efficient petroleum engines, and the like.
> I'm following the thread with great interest.
> 
> Acer


Acer,
Wasn't offended at all. I know what I'm working on is not mainstream :smile:
If it wasn't for all the work Bessler left behind, I wouldn't be doing this.
What might be easier for everyone to understand is a different application of this same principle. Bessler claimed to have a wheel that could rotate at 60 RPM. And more often than not, people want to know how fast it will go, not how much work could it do.
The attached drawing is the basic idea of having the water pumped around the outside of the wheel. When a lever drops, a bellow opens acting like a vacuum pump.
A little math if you don't mind, If a wheel is 36 in. in dia., it's radius is 112.32 in.
and divided into 8 sections, each section is 14.04 in.
To lift 3 lbs. 14 in. requires 42 in. lbs. of force. 2 weights dropping
1 in. on 24 in. long levers generate 48 in. lbs. of force.
One lever dropping 2 inches would generate the same 48 in. lbs. of force. This is to give everyone an idea. :boat: (sailing)
BTW, this would probably be the more difficult build because of either needing to warp boards or routing a circle 3 inches deep and possibly more.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Where I'm At*

@All,
Getting things put back together. This weekend, I'll probably be assembling the bellows. That's when you should be able to see what I'm doing.
@ halves will be joined by the piece shown. By doing it this way, I can position the material (waterproof fabric) I'm using for the bellows.
This means that the piece holding the 2 halves together will also help to seal the bellows. Kind of hoping a thin film of permatex and having 2 pieces of wood glued together along with some dowels will create a water and air tight seal.
Just realized this morning I think my dr's asst's have been splinting my finger wrong. It's okay though as my other situation has been given time to improve :yes:
But after what I've been through, a minor amputation wouldn't bother me any.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Question*

Does anyone have any suggestions for a sealant or water proofing ?


----------



## TonyM

*sealant*

James-this is what I'd use. It is a bit spendy but very effective. I've used it on many things including a center board on a sailing boat, the sub-floor of a bed on an RV and other spots that need help. It is a VERY thin liquid and will work if brushed on but if you want it to go deep into the wood I use a hypodermic needle.

Good stuff! I highly recommend it.

TonyM

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...do?pid=1268&familyName=Smiths+Warm+CPES+Epoxy


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Felng Stpid*



TonyM said:


> James-
> I'll help in any way I can. I'm horrible on math. I made it through college using vector analysis methods.
> 
> I want to read a bit more before commenting in more detail. It could take me a few days.
> 
> In the meantime have you looked at any sliding vane vacuum pumps, often called diffusion pumps? You probably know this but a lot of hi-tech places use these in line with a cryo-pump to get down to a real empty vacuum. If the pump leaks internally you can pump all day and get nowhere so they have to figure out a way to keep a constant negative pressure on the pumping mechanism, in this case a series of sliding vanes. The cross section of the Bessler wheel is very similar in design. Check them out if you get a chance. Alcatel, Perkin-Elmer and Roots make pumps that can get down to the -6 range. After that they switch to a cryo and they freeze everything. Look 'em up, Could give you some ideas.
> 
> I'll be back.
> TonyM


 Tony,
Hope you and everyone in here had a Happy New Year. 
I just thought of what you were talking about with the vacuum pumps. What I've actually considered is using pressure heads that can be pumped down, even with something like a manual well pump.
It's just that for commercial purposes, lowering a pressure head might be far more economical. The drawing shows the basic set up.
With an actual system, a pressure head over 33 ft. generates supposedly 29.92 hg's of vacuum. This would mean that with pressure heads creating the vacuum, most of the work would be done by water that counter balances itself.
This would mean that it should be rather economical to move water through such a system as compared to an R.O. system that requires 550 to 1100 psi to work.
I've tried finding information of the evaporative rate of water under vacuum/temp. but have found nothing.
I figure between Fl. and the Gulf Coast, should be sufficient water above 75F which would require only (LMAO) 29 hg's of vacuum to boil.
And besides, the Gulf of Mexico isn't to far from the Ogallala Aquifer and I think even Texas could use a little water :yes:

p.s., secondary pressure heads could be used to maintain the vacuum by cycling them. When one is drawn down, it can have a cut out valve so it can vent and refill with water. This would allow the vacuum to be created by moving essentially a solid mass.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Are you accounting for energy loss via friction in your calculations? You can't forget that even rolling balls and flowing water produce friction between themselves and the material they're rolling on/flowing over and the air they are displacing. Some of the energy they contain is being used to overcome friction. Also, the main bearing that this contraption will rotate on is going to generate a constant energy drain via friction.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> Are you accounting for energy loss via friction in your calculations? You can't forget that even rolling balls and flowing water produce friction between themselves and the material they're rolling on/flowing over and the air they are displacing. Some of the energy they contain is being used to overcome friction. Also, the main bearing that this contraption will rotate on is going to generate a constant energy drain via friction.



Miller Woodworks,
Those are some valid questions. The desalination concept is basically off topic and I hope I'm not offending any one. That is not to be confused with the 2 opposing weights that roll.
With water, there is cohesion where it sticks to itself and adhesion where it sticks to something else. In a pressurized system like an R.O. system, the outward force is equal to it's forward force.
Basically, about 1/2 of the energy is wasted. With vacuum and pressure heads, it's similar to a 0 G situation. About the only way the mass of the water matters is the load transferred to the structure that encloses the vacuum. This is because the mass of the pressure head would be acting on this area.
Other than that, the water would be moved at essentially atmospheric pressure.

With the 2 opposing weights that have one rolling towards center as it falls, there really wouldn't be any friction. This would be because it's spin and it's linear travel would be the same.
This means that if a 1 inch in diameter weight travels 3.142 inches (the value of Pi), it rotates 1 time.
And this is where the radius of the 1/4 round would be the diameter of the weight.
Here's some math that shows that a 1.78 in. round weight would roll 2.488 in.
Dia./2 = R 
1.78/2 = 0.89
R^2
.89 * .89 = .79
times Pi
2.488
As it is, it would match the retraction of a 1/4 round with a radius of 1.78 inches. Needless to say, I have spent a good amount of time going over this. It's just that to me, it is kind of important that it works for various reasons.

Jim

edited to add; if anyone wants to try this, I could show a simple layout. You see, the weight could roll out above the level of the axle.
And if the 1/4 round had a 1 3/4 in. radius, then if it's top is rotated until it is 7/8 of an inch to the left of it's bottom, it might rotate a little quicker. That'd be about a 30 degree angle. And if something like surgical tubing (neoprene rubber) were used, it would grip a weight without adhering to it.
That'd help to ensure the weight rotates as it moves inward.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Sounds Good*



TonyM said:


> James-this is what I'd use. It is a bit spendy but very effective. I've used it on many things including a center board on a sailing boat, the sub-floor of a bed on an RV and other spots that need help. It is a VERY thin liquid and will work if brushed on but if you want it to go deep into the wood I use a hypodermic needle.
> 
> Good stuff! I highly recommend it.
> 
> TonyM
> 
> http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...do?pid=1268&familyName=Smiths+Warm+CPES+Epoxy


Tony 
It might actually be a worth the cost. For how much a single wheel would use, I could probably build quite a few of them without worrying about if I have any sealer around.
Since I wouldn't be putting it to the use you do, I might be able to rub some in to get decent enough penetration.
Of course, since I would probably use ground shipping, I could probably start on the 2 weighted design. I've done a layout on paper where the 1/4 round is rotated counter clockwise 30 degrees. Could build 2 to see what the difference is.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Moving forward*

@All,
The bellow will be to the left. It will have two flaps that cross the bridge for the hinge. This will give the hinge 2 thicknesses of the material I'm using.
The end of the base is the top of the opposing hinge. When the other base for the bellows is set on it, the holes in the hinge pieces will line up with it's mate.
This will allow me to use 1/4" dowels to help secure the hinge with the material between the 2 pieces of wood. It'll probably be sometime next week before I have the material cut and could show what it will look like.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Bellows*

@All,
The picture shows how the bellow and hinge will be formed.
I'm going to use 3/4" wide rails on the sides. This will allow about 1/2" of material to be bracketed between 2 rails.
Right now, I have glued some test material together to find out what works. I may reinforce the hinge by sewing it together.
If so, then I'll put some sealant or epoxy over the threads.
I just figure if someone else tries this, hopefully I'll be able to save them some work.
I do wish I could afford something like deer skin for this because the water proof fabric I'm using is rather stiff.
And the bellow will be trimmed once the movable board/tongue is mounted.


----------



## TonyM

*Keep em' coming.*

My antique brain is not grasping this as quickly as I thought. Keep 'em coming. It'll "click" at some point. (hope)

TonyM


----------



## J_Lindgaard

TonyM said:


> My antique brain is not grasping this as quickly as I thought. Keep 'em coming. It'll "click" at some point. (hope)
> 
> TonyM


Tony,
This is a side view. With what I am building, one part will be in a fixed position and one part will move. And as one bellow opens, the other will close.
Glad you asked that, other's might've been wondering the same thing.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@All,
Saw a doctor at the V.A. today and found out that I damaged a tendon on another finger.
I guess I'll be needing surgery on 2 fingers now. This will somewhat effect my build. I am gluing rails
onto the fixed part of the bellows. This will give me an area to create a seal and strengthen the bellow
at the same time.
I'll post pictures after I have the material secured to that part of the bellow. it is as I mentioned, if someone
else tries this, I want them to have an easier go of it. Still, it is nice getting experience about this type of build by trying
different ways of doing things.

edited to add; am adding a pic showing how the rails are mounted. They are 7/8" tall. With 1/2" going for sealing the fabric I am using (may use epoxy glue, need to do a test), this leaves 3/8" to be glued together with another rail.
Then when a rim (circular wood making it a wheel) is added, the section extending past the end of the fixed tongue will be secured inside of the rim.
I just figure that as I build a basic model like this, if all works out, I'll be gaining experience about how to do more involved designs.
Also, since I know my doctor operates on Tuesdays and I see him Wednesday, should give me about a week for doing prep work, ie. cutting boards.
Then after surgery, I can do assembly. Gluing on pain meds is safe as long as I'm not sniffing the glue, or is that the other way around ? LMAO.

Jim

@All,
I would like to thank everyone for their interest in my project. It does matter to me. I let Tony know that as a result of such interest, I will hope to do a better job.
I do have some ulterior motives but hopefully nothing that would detract from wood working. I was told that pics are good and I will post them. And I will also post the engineering behind them.
It's just that if someone were to replicate my efforts, knowing the math helps.
What I am working on I call Bessler's Engine because of the work it could do. His other wheel was built for speed. And with that wheel, the water moved inside the rim.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Got cleared by my doctor to return to work. Hope to post some pics this weekend of the fixed part of the bellows being finished. I think once I have on set constructed, then everyone will better be able to understand how I am trying to reinterpret w = md. It's just that water might not conform to the standard definition. Basically, it would be the exception to the rule.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*slow and steady*

Will be returning to work on Monday so will keep working at it as I can.
The pic shows a set up for cutting the end pieces for the rails, one being glued on and the lone clamp is a test to see if the 2 part epoxy I have will glue fabric to wood.
If so, then may use it when I start assembling the bellows. I think once I get to that point, then it will be easier for everyone to understand what I am attempting.

Jim

p.s., got a stool now so will be able to be a bit more comfortable when I working on it. :smile:


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*A Quick Explanation*

If you look at the pic, when the weight operates the lever, the bellow on the right will open. When it does, the bellow on the left will close because it's water would be drawn out of it.
Just think of someone drawing blood. It's about the same thing but only with bellows and water.
In this instance, work = mass x distance is the distance the bellow opens. this increases the depth of the water.
The side wise movement of water takes time and might take extra force if the opening between the 2 bellows is to small.
So work would be the mass of the water times the distance the bellow opens. And resistance would depend on the opening the water is being pulled through.
People who have failed with this design have all made the same mistake, the opening between bellows was to small to allow for water to move quickly from one bellow to another bellow.
After all, does water flow out of a garden hos quicker with or without a nozzle ? With out of course, but if you want high velocity, then the flow has to be restricted so pressure will build up.
but it will have a greater volume of flow with no nozzle because it would not be restricted.
And while the picture is left to right, it wouldn't change much being rotated 90 degrees and lifting the water to the bellow on top. It would still be moving the same volume/mass of water.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Getting There*

This is a video showing about how the hinges and a bellow will work. While it is nothing unusual, I am hoping this design will prevent leaks (letting air in) so that the machine would be able to stay in continuous motion for a while.
I do believe one reason why Bessler was unhappy was his not being able to receive recognition for his accomplishment which took so much work.
Myself, I will be hoping that by going back to work, I will be able to forget about it until I am ready to do some more work.
Also, you can see how 2 bellows will be joined together which is what will allow for water or another fluid to move from one bellow to the other bellow. And since there will be no air in the bellows, when fluid moves from one to the other, the bellow being emptied will close.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Going Authentic*

I thought that I would let everyone know that I am going to be doing a somewhat authentic build. There are a few reasons for this and one of them is that I have been able to return to work.
This will allow me to buy any special tooling that I need as well as being able to build it with wood and leather. I will be using a strange design for the bellows because it will allow me to use a single piece of leather with no seams.
There is also someone I will be needing to thank and I can only do that if I give this my best effort. I have also thought of a name for the wheel and I've decided to call it The Spinning Jenny.
In Bessler's time, thread had just gone from being spun one spool at a time on a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_jenny, yep, Spinning Jenny.
Not sure if anyone cares but the very beginning of the Industrial Revolution is considered to be when they went from spinning one spool of thread at a time to up to 10 spools.
That allowed England to import cotton from India and export thread to India which was still priced lower.
I think if Bessler was born 50 years later, people may have taken more of an interest in his discovery. But it seems that in the early 1700's that Germans preferred manual labor.

Jim

p.s., I am currently designing the new build and will be started on it within the next couple of weeks.

edited to add; I'm hoping I didn't upset anyone over the last couple of weeks. They were very stressful to me as I was going through more than I would care to say or hopefully said.
And as I have let the person I wish to thank for being a friend to me, it may take somebody with more experience than myself to do a proper build. And with me and Bessler, I will be showing my work and designs. A part of it is to acknowledge Bessler's desire to have started a school for engineering and the other is that I do believe he would have wanted his work to be made known to people so for those that do like it, they can enjoy his work in ways he possibly could not.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Here is a link towards where things might go.
If coal pollution is the problem, then there might be a solution. But things do happen one step at a time.
And in the case of China, balanced trade with the U.S. would be equitable, right ?

http://news.yahoo.com/video/china-39-smog-now-20-135346198-cbs.html


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*New Importance*

@All,
First of all, I would like to thank you for your interest in my little project. I have finally returned to work and have been considering a new build.
What I have realized is that I need to remember why I am doing this. And to demonstrate that Bessler was legitimate, hopefully tomorrow I can show where the 2 opposing bellows are taking shape.
I have some Gorilla glue that is supposed to be 100% water proof. When I saw that on the label, it made me think of hydraulic cement. It sets in water after being mixed with water.
I am hoping that this weekend I can start on the rim and stand for it. If everything works out okay, I may take this to a 4 weighted design.
I have thought of what might be a simpler way to assemble something like this. Of course, adding unique details will require more time. I will see if I can do a basic demonstration of the simpler method for building the bellows. After all, if this glue does work, then the bellows will be sealed just by putting the thing together.

Jim

p.s., I do have another engineering project that if this is successful would help with. And like this, I'll need to keep my current job so I can pay the rent.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Basic Free Energy Principle*

@All,
This is something for everyone to consider. The drawing belongs to John Collins who like me wants to see a Bessler wheel working.
While the drawing is simple, it shows where there is potential for repetitive work to be performed. With the way Mt 21 is drawn, it is balanced, there is no over or under balance.
And basic math tells us that a weight going up cancels out a weight going down, why it's balanced. But what happens is that if the weight swinging away from center is working with a weight falling towards center, they could perform work together. And this is where pumping water comes in.
Because the basic leverage does not allow for anything other than equally opposing behavior, when 2 opposing weights work together, they can move something else. Kind of like a magician's trick, if you watch the left hand, you miss what his other hand is doing.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Where I'm at*

@All,
This is a pic of where I'm at with things. Thanks to being snowed in this weekend, I may be able to get it on a stand with the 2 bellows being finished. If so, then what would be left would be the pulleys and levers.
A quote of Bessler's;
cross-bar (noun) a structural member that crosses other elements; two perpendular beams crossing at the axis; lazy tongs 
1.a “If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys and weights, the machine can revolve much faster." AP 340 Collins translation


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Coupled Bellows*

@All,
Sorry about the poor quality pics. I'll be able to post better ones by the end of next week.
I know I'll be starting a new build next weekend and may jump to leather. Still, I'll continue on this one because of how much I am learning from it.
I will need to seal it before adding water. I figured that since I have to have the bellows finished to seal the last piece added, I decided to seal it all at once.
I'll also coat the outside. I may start work on the stand and levers tomorrow. It seems the more comfortable I get with this, the easier it is to make some progress.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Mt 127 and My Bellows*

@All,
This a better picture of my bellows next to Bessler's Mt 127 drawing which is over 300 years old.
I am not sure how close of a replication that I will build. It might be closer than what I'd think I can do. If so, this may cause me at times to slow down and consider how best to replicate Bessler's ways.
Because the waterproof fabric is not as flexible (pliant) as leather, it may take more force than I'd like to operate the bellows.
With water, when the top bellow is open, the bottom would close because it's water would have been drawn (siphoned) out of it.
Found out that the ceiling fixture for my light was dirty :no:

@All,
I realized that with my second set of bellows, that with a little clean up, they would be good enough for use with leather. And if nothing else, a side by side comparison of waterproof fabric and leather could be made.

With the dimensions of a bellow being about 3 x 13 inches with the narrow (coupled) end opening 1/2 inch and the outside end opening about 1 in., the volume is about 1/3 of a lb. on the under balanced side with about 1 lb. on the over balanced side.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Going Authentic*

I thought I would let everyone know that I am going to be doing an authentic build. This will include using leather for the bellows.
Over the next couple of weeks, I will be buying everything I need for this build and will be working on the stand and routing fixtures.
It could take 5 to 6 weeks to try for a quality build.

Jim


----------



## DST

Cool


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Sealant Purchase*



TonyM said:


> James-this is what I'd use. It is a bit spendy but very effective. I've used it on many things including a center board on a sailing boat, the sub-floor of a bed on an RV and other spots that need help. It is a VERY thin liquid and will work if brushed on but if you want it to go deep into the wood I use a hypodermic needle.
> 
> Good stuff! I highly recommend it.
> 
> TonyM
> 
> http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...do?pid=1268&familyName=Smiths+Warm+CPES+Epoxy


I just purchased 2 qts. Tony, for normal use, is there any special precautions that need to be taken ?
edit; anything special you did for prep for sealing ? Sanding, etc. ? If it matters, I'll be using Red Oak.

@All, since I'll be using pre-cut boards, any recommendations for prep for finishing ? I know on some of what I'll be doing, the prep work might best be done before assembly.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Update*

@All,
I have just ordered a bunch of stuff for this build. Probably the more important stuff is the leather waterproofing and things I'll need to sew leather with. It'll take about a week to get everything.
That means this weekend I'll probably start working on assembling the bellows and hopefully cutting the leather.
In case anyone is wondering, I have already spent a great deal of money on this but I was focused on moving/pumping the water around the outside of the wheel. Much more difficult.
This design is what I consider to be Bessler's Engine meaning it could perform work. I have done more than a little math so to me, it working will be something that will not be a surprise to me.

Jim

p.s., the link is to a poem Bessler wrote. I believe it was about a wheel where the water moved very quickly around the outside of the wheel. He did destroy one of his wheels after having been arrested.
He was accused of fraud by a man named Wagner because he would not reveal his secret(s).
By the way, it seems most people ignored what Bessler wrote, @besslerwheel.com, the more reputable members love his words and discredit his drawings.
Myself, I have much experience with drawings as well as having experience as a machinist. And as I have mentioned before, I do think that I will enjoy learning more about wood working as time goes by. :yes:

http://besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html
Please read Maschinen Tractate
http://besslerwheel.com/writings.html
and to John Collins web site, he is most responsible for making Bessler's work known;
http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html


----------



## Better Place

Jim,

I've been loosely following along and have a question. Have you considered using an oil as opposed to water as the fluid? The thought here is that oil may be more cohesive as opposed to adhesive. Thus the oil would tend to want to stay "together" and allow the flow between your bellows to be smoother and possibly faster than just the siphoning/vacuum of the bellows alone. Mercury would probably be better, but with the risks and regulations associated with it's usage, oil may be a more feasible option.

Additionally, to what level are you going to add the fluid to the bellows? I would think that if you were to add the fluid to the available volume of a fully opened bellows, and then add enough to fill the available volume of the chamber between bellows, you would get more efficiency in the siphoning action (ie the pump would always be primed).

Just some thoughts.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Better Place said:


> Jim,
> 
> I've been loosely following along and have a question. Have you considered using an oil as opposed to water as the fluid? The thought here is that oil may be more cohesive as opposed to adhesive. Thus the oil would tend to want to stay "together" and allow the flow between your bellows to be smoother and possibly faster than just the siphoning/vacuum of the bellows alone. Mercury would probably be better, but with the risks and regulations associated with it's usage, oil may be a more feasible option.
> 
> Additionally, to what level are you going to add the fluid to the bellows? I would think that if you were to add the fluid to the available volume of a fully opened bellows, and then add enough to fill the available volume of the chamber between bellows, you would get more efficiency in the siphoning action (ie the pump would always be primed).
> 
> Just some thoughts.


 BP,
I think you have a good idea of what I'm trying. Oil might work much better than water. Between the wood and the leather, it may help to seal and preserve both of them.
When I fill the bellows, I plan on having one opened and one closed. This way, just like the brakes on your car, all air can be bled out of the system.

Jim


----------



## Floyd69

J_Lindgaard

Nice wood work on your bellows, but oil may ruin your work if it leaks. When I built my bellows for my forge I didn't have a leather source close by, so I used a heavy canvas with wood and wire framing. Then I sprayed it heavy with Flex Seal. It worked well, and does not leak air out any of the sides. Just thought I would give you another viewpoint.


Floyd


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Thanks !*



Floyd69 said:


> J_Lindgaard
> 
> Nice wood work on your bellows, but oil may ruin your work if it leaks. When I built my bellows for my forge I didn't have a leather source close by, so I used a heavy canvas with wood and wire framing. Then I sprayed it heavy with Flex Seal. It worked well, and does not leak air out any of the sides. Just thought I would give you another viewpoint.
> 
> 
> Floyd


 Thanks for the information Floyd. I have read some feedback about stuff like sno seal, etc. and people swear by some of those products.
Since the bellows I'll be making will be small, even denim might work. One thing I learned when I was in the Navy is that air tight and water tight are the same things. Basically, if you fell overboard, wet pants can hold air for flotation.
So even if it isn't a 100% seal, a little leakage might be acceptable. Would just need to have a fill plug for topping off the bellows so to speak.
I am going to see about getting the bellows I've got done set up for demonstration purposes this weekend. Then I could at least show some of the math. You know, show that a weight can travel further than another weight drops and weighing more when it does it.
I think for your guys' patience, ya'all are at least owed that much as soon as I can git'er done :yes:

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Photo update*

Here's a pic of what I've gotten done so far. The reason for the small (long) beams is to have a place to mount the levers.
I'm also going to build a stand and allow for the bellows to rotate. I'm not concerned about if this build works perpetually as it's more for demonstration of the mechanics.
It'll probably take until tomorrow for me to get it on a stand. Then I think everyone will better be able to understand how it's supposed to work.

edited to add; have more items being shipped including 2 different kinds of water proofing. Hopefully will be able to test different fabrics, etc. to see what works well.

Floyd, when you used wire to help seal your bellows, did you do anything special, you know, cut a groove, wrap canvas around it...


----------



## Floyd69

Hello Jim ( may I call you Jim?)

The wire was not so much to seal it as to keep it's shape for me. I used 2 different sizes of wire to keep the shape of the Bellows and I did have the wire sewn in and sewn each layer as well. There was 2 larger wires and 3 smaller ones rounded at the ends. I used long tacks on the upper and lower wooden layers after I sprayed with the Flex Seal. They where spaced like, from the wood, a small wire, Large wire, small wire, large wire, small wire and then to the other wood. This was to keep it from ballooning out the sides which it worked well and smooth to. No floppy noise that some bellows have due to the ballooning of the sides. One more thing! double the sewing, one on each side of the wire. I found there are lots of ladies in Church that are willing to help sew for a little handy work around their house. Trade is a wonderful thing. Just make sure their husbands are there, if you know what I mean, to stop any stories. So good luck and i will keep an eye on your proect for it will be a wonderful thing if it works.

Floyd


----------



## Miller Woodworks

How will you eliminate sources of constant energy loss, like the air the wheel will move through, the axle it will rotate around, and the friction of the swinging weights and moving fluids?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Pics ?*



Floyd69 said:


> Hello Jim ( may I call you Jim?)
> 
> The wire was not so much to seal it as to keep it's shape for me. I used 2 different sizes of wire to keep the shape of the Bellows and I did have the wire sewn in and sewn each layer as well. There was 2 larger wires and 3 smaller ones rounded at the ends. I used long tacks on the upper and lower wooden layers after I sprayed with the Flex Seal. They where spaced like, from the wood, a small wire, Large wire, small wire, large wire, small wire and then to the other wood. This was to keep it from ballooning out the sides which it worked well and smooth to. No floppy noise that some bellows have due to the ballooning of the sides. One more thing! double the sewing, one on each side of the wire. I found there are lots of ladies in Church that are willing to help sew for a little handy work around their house. Trade is a wonderful thing. Just make sure their husbands are there, if you know what I mean, to stop any stories. So good luck and i will keep an eye on your project for it will be a wonderful thing if it works.
> 
> Floyd


 Floyd,
Is there any chance you have some pics of your handy work or bellows ? I think they would be worth seeing if you have some. And you can call me Jim if I can call you Floyd.

@Miller Woodworks,
>> How will you eliminate sources of constant energy loss, <

This coming weekend, I'll build a test wheel using 8 - 1 lb. weights. I have built one before to find out how much extra force or torque it takes to rotate a wheel.
And if I just add levers to my bellows, then the shift in weight mass can be observed. I may need to use clear plastic on my other set of bellows so everyone can see the (colored) water moving.
Then by using some basic math, the over balance can be known. And then hopefully everyone will understand why I like my hobby as much as I do. After all, can you think of something else that incorporates engineering and wood working ? There hasn't been much lately except for maybe trebuchets or siege engines.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> How will you eliminate sources of constant energy loss, like the air the wheel will move through, the axle it will rotate around, and the friction of the swinging weights and moving fluids?


 
Miller,
With this basic idea in the video, if the weight has a line wrapped around it and it rolls up, there is no friction. And with a 4 ounce weight, a round weight would only need to roll 3 inches out if it is 12 inches from center to start with.
And with 2 - 1 lb. weights, the 4 oz.'s represents about 1/10th of the total weight being moved.
With vacuum and pumps, a well head that is 100 ft. tall can be pumped with 12 lbs. of force at 24 inches of leverage. This is using a piston that is lifted by the lever.
And with water, it's high viscosity means that it flows rather easily.
The only real question is how quickly it can move. And since it's basically siphoning water upwards, why not try siphoning water and see how quickly it moves. And with even a small difference in height, it still moves quickly.
This should be no different.
Edited to add; Miller, am glad you asked that question/those questions. I basically consider if 5% of the total weight of the wheel is net force, it should work. It seems that 10% net force would allow for a speed of about 1 1/2 ft. per second. That would be about 15 rpm.
And to achieve that, I'll need to weight what I have built and then consider the weight of the water. One thing I did consider with the 2 bellows being connected with an opening of 3/4 in. x 3 in. and the bellows being 16 in. long, the math is as follows;
If the bellow is closed it will hold 36 cubic inches of water divided by 2 which is 18 cubic inches. That's about 11 oz.'s of water.
If a bellow opens to 1 1/2 in., it will hold 3 x's the volume or about 33 oz.'s of water with a net force of 22oz.'s at about 10 in. from center.
So we're talking about 4 lb.s of water total weight and 1 1/2 at 10 in. for net force. This means the wheel should rotate well enough if the total weight of the wheel were 15 lbs. including water and weights for the levers. I think a wheel could be built weighing less than 7 lbs.
This would mean a net force equal to 15% of the total weight of the wheel. In case you're wondering, I have done a ton of math and enough testing. It's just that I would like to do a decent looking build. After all, if it works as I believe it will, I'd want people to think I did a decent job of it. That and it is Bessler's legacy. The work I do will reflect on him and what people today might think of him. So it is for more than just myself that I am working on this.
One thing I have realized about this is that a bellow opening only 1 1/2 in. isn't something people seem to notice. And for show, it may need to open 3 in. so that people could actually see work being done. I think if he had his bellow opened more in the drawing that his work would have been realized a long time ago. It'd be obvious then.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller,
Hope I didn't confuse and everyone else too much with that response. This is something i have spent a fair amount of time considering.
It will probably be this weekend when I finish the build I am doing. Tomorrow, I will probably start 2 others since I am off work tomorrow.
Of the 2 builds, one will be using the original dimensions where it's 3 1/4 in. wide and 16 in. long. The other one will be about 6 in. wide where the 2 bellows connect and narrow to about 3 or 3 1/2 in. Where the bellows meet will be about 3/4 in. high opening.
You see, when I show this does work, then I can say there are 2 things to watch for, the center of gravity of the water or fluid and the movement of one lever. In a way, this is like a car's engine. Most people aren't concerned with valve timing, lift and duration of the cam, etc. They accept why it works. This will be about the same thing.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*On a Stand*

@All,
Here is a pic of it finally being mounted on a stand. I'll be hoping to route the rim (outer ring of the wheel) this weekend.
I figure about 1/3 of the water in the bellows will be over balance. I have a basic fish scale to weight it with so will have a rough idea how much weight that is.

Jim


----------



## shourah

wow...amazing. thx for the information


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Round About*



shourah said:


> wow...amazing. thx for the information


Sarcasm noted :laughing:
Over the last couple of years, I've been trying to figure out how to go around the outside of a wheel or rim. Ever try to make a 20" radius that's 3 or 4 inches deep with a mating surface ?
Not the easiest thing to do. But going around the outside, the water or fluid could weigh as much or more than the weights moving it.
You know, if you use 8 - 1 lb. weights and have 2 working together, you could have 40 inch lbs. of force rotating a wheel that weighs less than 12 lbs.
That's a pretty good force to mass ratio. With the picture shown, when a board is lifted, it draws water upward just as any other water pump does. It's unfortunate that when water is drawn upward that the wheel will rotate causing the next lever to try and draw the water even further up.
Fortunately for the wheel, it can rotate to counter the lifting of the water.

p.s., please remember that all weights and movement of the levers are basically balanced or do cancel each other out. Kind of leaves the water being lifted unaccounted for.

edit; if a wheel is 40 inches in diameter and uses 36 inch long levers with 1 lb. weights, the levers will generate 36 inch lbs. of torque. If they work at a 2:1 ratio, then it would be 24 inch lbs. of force x's 2.
Here is where what I like about it shows itself, if each section of a pump is 16 inches long (40x3.14/8=15.7) and the pumps are 2 inches wide, then they have a surface area of 32 sq. in. or about 1 1/8 lbs. of water.
To move 1 1/8 lbs. of water 16 inches takes 18 in lbs. of force. That means a lever only needs to drop 2 inches to develop enough force to pump water 16 inches. And that would leave 12 in. lbs. of force left over.
With me, I have switched to the easy build which matches Bessler's drawing. 

Now you can say wow... amazing.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Bending Things a Little*

One "leg" is warped so I'm steaming it so it will be a little straighter. I did put some of my waterproof fabric over it so the steam will have a pocket to occupy.
If you look closely, you can see where the steam is coming out from underneath it's hood.

I bought the steamer when I was trying to move the water around the rim instead of moving across the axle.

Jim


----------



## Floyd69

Sorry for not getting back to you Jim. I slipped on some ice and busted my head. I ended up with a concussion. As soon as I can get to the Family farm, I will get you those photos you asked for. That is where I practice my blacksmith work. But I can tell you that each layer was about 60% open in the middle. Well back to my lounge chair until the doctor lets me work. The light from the computer screen makes my head hurt more. From what you have posted you seem to be making great progress.

Floyd


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Moving On*

@All,
I've bought some red oak to start work on a 4 weighted/bellow wheel. I have the birch plywood to make the rims for what I've been working on.
What I do like about this situation is that for what I'm after, the basic build I've been working on has been helping to better understand what it takes to build a decent wheel.
The router table shown on my work bench is 24 in. x 24 in. I'll be making an attachment so I can set a top on it that is 32 in. x 32. This will allow me to route a 16 in. radius. That will be the outside diameter of the 4 weighted wheel.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Raqdius Tool*

I have my radius tool made and will route the rim for the 2 weighted wheel I've been working on. Should have that done this weekend. If so, then about all will be left is adding the levers.
Had the post office leave some stuff I ordered on my deck and it took a walk.
Still, have been going over the design for the 4 weighted wheel. I'm going to use 3 1/2 in. x 1/4 for a sub frame. I'm going to route a lot of material and then will mate it to a piece of birch plywood cut to size.
I'm hoping that will give it a nice appearance while being strong enough to not warp to much over time.

added; The diagram is about how the flat surfaces of the bellows will look. I'll be using 1/4 in. wood. 
One thing I have realized is that because leather can be sealer fairly well, I'll only need to place a support beam to secure the leather to the frame of the bellow. It should simplify things quite a bit. 

@All, I need to get a 1/4" collet for my router. This means I'll start working on the second build a little sooner than I had hoped for. This means making the parts and getting them ready for assembly.
I might be able to route one part to use as a template for the bellow supports I'll be needing.

edited to add; I just ordered the collet and won't get it until about Mar. 3rd. Will show my prep work


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Working on the Rings*

@All,
I am going to have a ring go around each side of the wheel. With this design (having bellows centered on the axle), it is a little different way of doing things.
I am going to put a locating hole on each end by where I made the 45° cuts. This will allow me to route them individually if I want to and will give 2 mounting holes as well. The second hole can be drilled after the rings are assembled.
I'll have to do the same thing to another set of 8 boards. I'll also need to make a new stand to allow for the design change.
Hopefully next weekend I'll have then routed and mounted. One thing to remember about cutting 45's this way, is the top board on the left mates with the bottom right.
And with the 45's I'm cutting, they're about 1 5/8". The rings will be about 1" wide so hopefully will have a nice fit.

Jim

p.s., one cheat I might do is use some inexpensive (cheap) sealer and pour some in and let it soak in some, then drain so it will cure/dry.

edited to add; have prepped the last 8 boards and now will need to decide on a 2 or 3 hole configuration. With 2 holes, both holes would be where 2 boards over lap. With 3 holes, one hole on each side of splice and one in the middle/over lap.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Status Update*

@All,
I thought I'd let you know that this weekend, I'll be making time with the 4 weighted build. I've had some other things to take care of.
I have ordered a 1/4 in. collet for my palm router and will be buying a second router this weekend. This way, I can get going on this and if I buy a router table, then I could have a dedicated router for it.
I've also ordered a Krieg kit, it'll help with building jigs and fixtures. 
And for what work I do get done this weekend, I'll post some pics. This way, when I start assembling them, you'll have an idea of one way to go about it.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Making Blamnks*

Was allowed to take the day off today so started cutting blanks. What I'm going to do is make a template of a single part. Then I can use my trim router to make the rest of them just the same.
I am going to make clamping blocks for curved parts, 2 dowels and a piece of 1/2 x 2 oak. Then when I glue the 2 halves together, I can have them off set by about 1/2 their lengths. Tis will give about 32 dowel locations around the wheel. Might add a little something to the appearance.
I do have most of the wood purchased for the wheel. Once I have a good start on it, then I'll start work on the stand. I'm also supposed to get my 1/4" collet tomorrow so could be busy routing parts.
When I have the long pieces for the sides cut, I'll post a pic of them. That might help everyone to have an idea of what the profile will look like.
And when I get one of the parts for the bellows made, I'll post a pic of that as well. With the design I'm going with, the 2 sets of bellows will be off set from each other by about 1 inch. 
edited to add; with using 16 pieces to form a "rim", the sides of each piece will need to be 11.25º, kind of touchy. What I'm going to try is roughing out the blanks and then making 90º sections of the rim and then do a final trim. Just much easier joining 90º sides.
This way, the over all lengths/angle of sides of the parts can be slightly off and still look good 
Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Floyd69 said:


> Sorry for not getting back to you Jim. I slipped on some ice and busted my head. I ended up with a concussion. As soon as I can get to the Family farm, I will get you those photos you asked for. That is where I practice my blacksmith work. But I can tell you that each layer was about 60% open in the middle. Well back to my lounge chair until the doctor lets me work. The light from the computer screen makes my head hurt more. From what you have posted you seem to be making great progress.
> 
> Floyd


 You feeling better yet Floyd ? I've had a concussion before and know the effects can linger for a long time :-(

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Jigs*

@All,
Have built a routing jig. As you can see, I'll need to make a template to outline the size of part I need. Then I can use my jig saw to rough them out before routing.
I hope to have my Krieg fastener kit by Wednesday, if so, then I can start work on the bellows.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@All,
@besslerwheel.com, a site dedicated to Bessler's work, this is what I've had to tolerate. http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4656
The disruptions are a service connected disability, cancer and complications from treatment for said cancer.
If you notice, he is "credible". He has me at a disadvantage because he knows a working wheel would probably be worth something. I'm after something else.
While the individual who started the thread is good at armoring, he has no understanding of engineering and discounts the difficulties involved with wood working. You can't beat it with a hammer to get what you want. In some ways, it is more complex.

Jim

p.s., I am trying to impress a woman I know. Even as a friend, it is nice to have friends.

hopefully the link will work. it's to some of my early work. got started on Bessler when I got fired for wanting to meet a woman in the Ukraine. Am 1/2 deaf in one ear and guess people didn't think I deserved a family. And when I had cancer, kept on working at it.

http://s979.photobucket.com/user/bessler_supporter/library/Bessler?sort=3&page=2

lost my phone today so won't be able to upload any more photos. Of course, after the last 5 years, need to worry about keeping my job right now. As has been explained to me, any other employer would've terminated me for my medical problems. Have missed enough work to where I do not qualify for FMLA. And have been told if I miss any work due to my ongoing medical condition, I will be terminated. Will be allowed to make doctors appts. and nothing else unless I have time to cover my absence. Still, they have endured my medical problems since Feb. of 09.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Floyd69 said:


> Sorry for not getting back to you Jim. I slipped on some ice and busted my head. I ended up with a concussion. As soon as I can get to the Family farm, I will get you those photos you asked for. That is where I practice my blacksmith work. But I can tell you that each layer was about 60% open in the middle. Well back to my lounge chair until the doctor lets me work. The light from the computer screen makes my head hurt more. From what you have posted you seem to be making great progress.
> 
> Floyd


 Any reason someone on the family farm can't take them ? Myself, I have what is called a Traumatic Brain Injury. It kind of means I don't remember yesterday most of the time. Still, it hasn't kept me from doing anything. It only took about 6 years for doctors to diagnose it because if you can't think, there's no problem.
Was hit by a van and hit my head on the ground at over 100 mph. My parents didn't think they should let me date because I was 40 and a disabled Vet. That was 13 years ago.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*This Weekend*

@All,
Found my phone and got my Krieg pocket hole today.
This weekend I should be able to get a lot done. Of course I'll
post pics on how I make my template for routing parts. Since I'm
using a trim router and a bit with the bearing on top, I need about 
1 1/4" depth of support.
I may only trim the mating angles and wait until I have a 1/4 radius of the rim assembled to route it's final dimensions. In the end, I think it will be worth all the troubles :yes:
And I am about finally healthy after all these years so should get quite a bit of enjoyment from the work I'll be doing.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Trim Fixture*

@All,
This is a picture of the trim fixture. If all I use it for is to trim the angles on the ends, that'll be good enough. With 16 pieces fitting together, it might be best to assemble 1/4 sections.
It's not entirely flush on top but since it is the angles on the sides that I'm worried about, should be fine.
I may spend this weekend putting in locating holes on the blanks I've cut and trimming them a little to fit my fixture.
I still have to make a blank part with locating pins to secure the blanks needing trimming. If I can afford to buy another bit for my router, then I can buy one with the bearing on the bottom and not need the blank part. Am on a budget and do need to do some work on my car.

Jim

p.s., talk about funny in a good way. Just saw an add above the preview for wheels I've looked at. Wouldn't mind putting some 17's on my car. It's been good to me and need to show it some love,


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Info*

@All,
The link is to Richard Proenneke's Wikipedia page. The cabin that he built is another form of wood working that few consider any more.
What I will probably do is show a better way of making a routing fixture for making parts for a round wheel or rim.
If you look at most water wheels online, they are octagons with a radius having been cut. With what I am doing, it is because plywood is an inexpensive way to go.
It's that to have a 16" radius, it takes a piece of wood about 3" wide. For a 1/8th section, the width of the wood might be 6 inches. Also, by using smaller sections, the grain if it shows well after finishing would help to improve the physical appearance of the wheel.
The second link is to pictures of water wheels. If the water is drawn upward inside the rim, then it could have a potential to do work close to that of a water wheel.
edited to add a pic of a fat router base I used. I needed to clean up the bottom of the fixture. Depth should be 3/4" which allows for a 1/4" piece and 1/2" for the thickness of the routing template.
With the way I am going about this, the tooling I am making may be the most time consuming part of what I'm doing. What this will allow for is making several interchangeable parts.
By making all parts the same, then the wheel should be pretty much balanced when assembled.
Jim

with the 2nd pic, you can see where the part will seat. If I would've gotten it right the first time, the seat would've been the shape of the part and as you guys know, it would help prevent tear out. Tomorrow I'll make the blank that sits on top and will be the guide for the router. Have found out that routing 1/2" is a bit more than my trim router can handle. Something I will need to remember.
And with the router sitting on top of the part, the fixture will help with support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke

https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...ZN-Tq0wHT-YHQCw&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1093&bih=514


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Climate Change*

@All,
One thing I do hope comes from a working Bessler wheel is an opportunity to quantify Global Warming so that preventive action can be taken.
One such action would be to convert CO2 and H2O into CH2O + O2, something that would slow or diminish Global Warmings' effect on our environment.
It's kind of like they say, an ounce of prevention...

For people who have families, it is something to consider.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

How do you go from attempting perpetual motion to human induced climate change and making formaldehyde to counteract it? Also, have you considered that the life on this planet has drastically changed this planet's environment to such an extent as to make life as we know it possible? Even if humans are changing the environment, why would you think it's not a good thing and that we should stop?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Photosynthesis*



Miller Woodworks said:


> How do you go from attempting perpetual motion to human induced climate change and making formaldehyde to counteract it? Also, have you considered that the life on this planet has drastically changed this planet's environment to such an extent as to make life as we know it possible? Even if humans are changing the environment, why would you think it's not a good thing and that we should stop?


Miller Woodworks,
First, I made a new routing fixture and bought a router bit so the base will be the guide for my router.

As for our environment >> Even if humans are changing the environment, why would you think it's not a good thing and that we should stop? <<

We live in an ecosystem. As such, it is quite possible that decreasing levels of oxygen while the levels of CO2 are rising could have serious consequences. One possible one would be more crop failure due to too much variance in the weather.
What may be possible is to reduce the CO2 emissions from coal fired power plants while returning some of the oxygen back to the atmosphere.
It's possible that vacuum is what allows for the photosynthesis process. If so, we can duplicate it on an industrial level. According to a National Geographic documentary called 6 Degrees That Could Change the World happened to mention that if CO2 emissions from coal fired power plants were reduced by 20%, that Global Warming would stop.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/six-degrees-could-change-the-world/

Unfortunately, because of my hearing loss, I have had much time to read. And this has allowed me to become involved in different things online that does not require me to have very good hearing.
There are things in desalination I'd like to try as well. Still, if I am right about how photosynthesis happens, then we would have one possible solution. It could be that decreasing levels of oxygen are helping atmospheric gasses to absorb solar radiation more readily.
And if oxygen levels fall below 18%, then people could have trouble just trying to breathe normally because there wouldn't be enough oxygen in the atmosphere for what a person needs.
So with a working Bessler's wheel, I'll be able to ask an Organic Chemist if they could try using vacuum as a means of cold fusion. After all, plants don't get hot from the fusion process otherwise they wouldn't need sun light.
Still, would've preferred having a family, just never was allowed to make that choice.
Miller, with CH2O (formaldehyde) + O2 from fusing CO2 and H2O would allow for formaldehyde to be made into sugar or C6H12O6 and at the same time 6 O2 molecules would be returned to the atmosphere. Nature does it every day. And I think what has never been considered is vacuum.
Jim

edited to add; I have decided to build the rims differently. The plywood I have is questionable as some of it has s[lit. I will be joining 3 pieces of red oak to make a 1/16th section of the rim.
I still may use the birch plywood for the bellows and since it will be sealed, that may help to strengthen the plywood. I'll see if I can't post some pics on Wednesday of how I'm going about things differently.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Router Table*

I just ordered a trim router table which I should have by the middle of next week. I thought of a good way to use wood where I'll use 3 pieces of wood to make one section that I'll route.
I saw where one person made a table and the line where the 4 sections were glued together I thought added a nice detail. 
With photosynthesis, here's a basic diagram. With water being a liquid, it may actually steal a carbon molecule from carbon dioxide which creates formaldehyde, the primary gas creating the vacuum when water is drawn down by use of a vacuum pump.
For people who have kids, slowing or stopping climate change should be of some concern. After all, you would want your kids to enjoy a bit better environment to live in, any way, hopefully you do :smile:

p.s., when water (outgassed) steals a carbon molecule, then CO2 becomes O2 which would help to return some oxygen back into the environment.
And with formaldehyde, it might be able to be converted into sugar. If so, then we'd be doing what plants have always done.
And I'll try to stick with wood working from now on.

edited to add; started cutting some boards for the bellows assembly. I'll need to buy a new blade this weekend. Since I did get one of the oak boards cut to width, I'll be able to start on the routing fixture to create a lot of pockets in it.
It helps that I know how I'll be doing the rings and hopefully by the end of the month, I'll be able to show how the bellows and outer rims go together.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Rails*

@All,
I've started routing the inner radius for the side rails I'll be using on the 2 weighted/bellow build. I have cut the boards for the 4 weight/bellow build to dimension. I still need to build a routing fixture to remove excess material from the oak support frame.
When I get my trim router table, I'll route the ends of the rails so they can start being assembled. I'm also going to make a couple extra routing jigs in case I accidently damage one.
FYI, if I'm putting the wood ring on the side of the wheel (2 weight), I'm calling it rails and if it goes around the outside radius (4 weight), I'm calling that a rim. This way it'll be easier to understand which design I'm discussing.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Routing the Rim*

@All,
I have been routing the pieces that I'm making the rim out of. I found out that the holes do not align as precisely as they could be. But by not drilling all the way through on it's mate, won't matter much.
I will need to do a light trim on the inner and outer radii. When I do, it will be on 1/4 sections. This should make the rims fairly uniform in size and shape.
Still, with what I am learning on this build, it is helping me on the other one I am doing. Sort of like training wheels :blink:

Jim 

p.s., I used my square to center the first piece being glued. And the holes for dowels will be what I sue to hold it in place when I do the final trim.
The 2 small clamps were used to align/center the top piece with the lower pieces.


----------



## Gilgaron

Wait I thought this was just for fun... are you really thinking that you'll be able to build a perpetual motion machine that violates thermodynamics?

Re climate change, yeah if the climate changes too much we'll all die. That the Earth's climate naturally changes doesn't mean that we wouldn't all die, as the Earth has been inhospitable to modern human civlization plenty of times and it doesn't care if we die. Whether or not we can do anything about it, it is a good idea to worry about climate change and global warming. 

I'm no chemist, but I am a microbiologist if you want to restate your questions about photosynthesis... what you've stated so far sounds fairly pseudoscientific. Remember that photosynthesis is metabolism in reverse... you've basically got reverse photosynthesis in your stomach when you eat that lettuce.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Gilgaron said:


> Wait I thought this was just for fun... are you really thinking that you'll be able to build a perpetual motion machine that violates thermodynamics?
> 
> Re climate change, yeah if the climate changes too much we'll all die. That the Earth's climate naturally changes doesn't mean that we wouldn't all die, as the Earth has been inhospitable to modern human civlization plenty of times and it doesn't care if we die. Whether or not we can do anything about it, it is a good idea to worry about climate change and global warming.
> 
> I'm no chemist, but I am a microbiologist if you want to restate your questions about photosynthesis... what you've stated so far sounds fairly pseudoscientific. Remember that photosynthesis is metabolism in reverse... you've basically got reverse photosynthesis in your stomach when you eat that lettuce.


 
Hi Gilgaron,
You're my new best friend :yes:

1st, to explain a misconception that it seems everyone has; >> are you really thinking that you'll be able to build a perpetual motion machine that violates thermodynamics? <<

Actually, I'm saying someone already built this and while it would seem to violate thermodynamics, it doesn't. In scientific terms, an object rotating on the Earth's surface would be classified as a satellite. Thermodynamics states that a body or mass can not change it's own potential.
With the engineering involved, it is how it's physical balance changes relative to the Earth's gravity and not it's own inherent gravity that allows for it to be a mass.

And with "cold fusion", maybe you know someone who could try it.
>> Remember that photosynthesis is metabolism in reverse... <<
And yet metabolism generates heat while photosynthesis requires it. If you were to look at the atomic mass of chlorophyll, CH2O, CO2 and H20 and consider their quantum behavior, it becomes interesting.
It seems that chlorophyll has an O2 molecule in it while it is much more massive than any of the other molecules, and that when it absorbs solar radiation (sunshine), it expands. This expansion is what would create a vacuum that could effect molecules of a much lower mass. As Einstein would say, it's all relative, right ?
This is something you would probably understand, this is where science meets life. We go from E = MC^2 to needing oxygen to breathe without it being a chemical reaction. This would be because life has a complexity of it's own.
Kind of why you are my new best friend, if you know someone or even are able to try the cold fusion yourself, you might find that thermodynamics is violated by an extreme vacuum. And in this I would be very appreciative of. Instead of latent heat, etc., it would be that a given mass is excited more than it's mass allows for. It'd be a kind of a new concept in science and on that allows water to evaporate below 100C. It is not that it evaporates but it is excited by the negative behavior of gasses stretched in something that would be similar to Maxwell's Demon. 

@All,
I got my new trim router table. I am going to make templates so most of my work will be done on it. This'll mainly because I can set up a dust collector and keep my work environment quite a bit cleaner (hopefully). Right now I'm looking at 2 months but even that isn't guaranteed. 
It's just that I thought of a neat detail I can add to the Good build. It may be the end of this week when I'm finished routing the pieces for the rails.

Jim

edited to add; Gilgaron, with the chart, you can see that outgassed water evaporates @ 75.92F (24.4C) under 29.02 HG's (inches of Mercury). In reality, water is being absorbed by the excited gasses trying to reach an equilibrium with the vacuum acting on it.
This also means that the more vacuum water is exposed to, the less cohesion it will have. And as you mentioned about opposite behaviors, a blower like a 6-71 Jimmy used in the reverse becomes a vacuum pump. For some reason, with using vacuum for work, I think a piston type pump would be more economical. It could be that once a vacuum is reached, it can be sealed and then the extraction of the byproduct maintains the vacuum.
It might be that nature has outsmarted us :thumbsup:


----------



## Gilgaron

J_Lindgaard said:


> >> Remember that photosynthesis is metabolism in reverse... <<
> And yet metabolism generates heat while photosynthesis requires it. If you were to look at the atomic mass of chlorophyll, CH2O, CO2 and H20 and consider their quantum behavior, it becomes interesting.
> It seems that chlorophyll has an O2 molecule in it while it is much more massive than any of the other molecules, and that when it absorbs solar radiation (sunshine), it expands. This expansion is what would create a vacuum that could effect molecules of a much lower mass. As Einstein would say, it's all relative, right ?


The chromataphores in your eye work a lot like those in photosynthesis, absorbing a photon changes the conformation of the proteins. Vacuum isn't really a phenomena at this scale, nor an important part of the process as far as I am aware, but eukarya aren't really my thing. At this scale steric hindrance is usually what keeps spaces 'empty'.



> This is something you would probably understand, this is where science meets life. We go from E = MC^2 to needing oxygen to breathe without it being a chemical reaction. This would be because life has a complexity of it's own.


The requisite of oxygen for breathing is a chemical reaction, but I think I'm misunderstanding you.



> Kind of why you are my new best friend, if you know someone or even are able to try the cold fusion yourself, you might find that thermodynamics is violated by an extreme vacuum. And in this I would be very appreciative of. Instead of latent heat, etc., it would be that a given mass is excited more than it's mass allows for. It'd be a kind of a new concept in science and on that allows water to evaporate below 100C. It is not that it evaporates but it is excited by the negative behavior of gasses stretched in something that would be similar to Maxwell's Demon.


How would you differentiate this effect from normal vapor pressure? I don't have access to equipment that would be able to generate large vacuums. If I was at a university I might have more opportunities to mess around, but it'd be out of scope for what we do. 



> edited to add; Gilgaron, with the chart, you can see that outgassed water evaporates @ 75.92F (24.4C) under 29.02 HG's (inches of Mercury). In reality, water is being absorbed by the excited gasses trying to reach an equilibrium with the vacuum acting on it.
> This also means that the more vacuum water is exposed to, the less cohesion it will have. And as you mentioned about opposite behaviors, a blower like a 6-71 Jimmy used in the reverse becomes a vacuum pump. For some reason, with using vacuum for work, I think a piston type pump would be more economical. It could be that once a vacuum is reached, it can be sealed and then the extraction of the byproduct maintains the vacuum.
> It might be that nature has outsmarted us :thumbsup:


What are the excited gases in this reaction? Your vacuum chamber won't last long if you've got plasma in there.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Excited Gasses*



Gilgaron said:


> The chromataphores in your eye work a lot like those in photosynthesis, absorbing a photon changes the conformation of the proteins. Vacuum isn't really a phenomena at this scale, nor an important part of the process as far as I am aware, but eukarya aren't really my thing. At this scale steric hindrance is usually what keeps spaces 'empty'.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the excited gases in this reaction? Your vacuum chamber won't last long if you've got plasma in there.


 The excited gasses I'm referring to would be the CH2O and CO2. While they would have the same charge, because the amount of space they need to occupy increases, this would increase their excitement.
I think with this process, that it may be possible for chlorophyll to form something similar to a cocoon. And when the cocoon expands, the gasses in it are expanded. It may be this is what has not been understood about photosynthesis and why no one has been able to replicate it.
With something like this, if it worked, it probably would be a major scientific break through because it would be demonstrating a new behavior in science.
I may be able to try it later this year using a 1 gal. vacuum chamber. All it would need in it is an oxygen sensor which would show that oxygen is being released. Although i am not sure if I would be able to obtain the necessary "chemicals" since it is not something I work with myself.

Jim


----------



## Miller Woodworks

J_Lindgaard said:


> The excited gasses I'm referring to would be the CH2O and CO2. While they would have the same charge, because the amount of space they need to occupy increases, this would increase their excitement.


Please define "excited" for me. I believe that you are using it in a way that does not match my understanding of the word "excited". As I understand your statement, you are incorrect. Increasing the volume of a container to lower the pressure inside of the container would not excite the molecules of either of those gases.



J_Lindgaard said:


> I think with this process, that it may be possible for chlorophyll to form something similar to a cocoon. And when the cocoon expands, the gasses in it are expanded. It may be this is what has not been understood about photosynthesis and why no one has been able to replicate it.


We actually have a good understanding of how photosynthesis works. Look up chlorophyll and photosynthesis if you'd like to find out how it works. What do you mean by "replicate photosynthesis"? Also, why do you think people are trying to do it, but are unable to?



J_Lindgaard said:


> With something like this, if it worked, it probably would be a major scientific break through because it would be demonstrating a new behavior in science.


We already know photosynthesis works. It's not a new behavior in science. Do you mean synthesizing photosynthesis would be something new? Even if nobody has ever synthesized it before, it wouldn't be something new. It's still photosynthesis. 
All that aside, why are you trying to duplicate photosynthesis? It's already abundant. Just go plant a garden.



J_Lindgaard said:


> I may be able to try it later this year using a 1 gal. vacuum chamber. All it would need in it is an oxygen sensor which would show that oxygen is being released. Although i am not sure if I would be able to obtain the necessary "chemicals" since it is not something I work with myself.
> 
> Jim


Do you mean the formaldehyde to sugar and oxygen thing? You'd need some catalyst to get a reaction going. Just putting things in the same bottle doesn't work unless there is a reason for them to react to each other. Lowering the pressure is almost never a reason for things to react. Higher pressure can get certain things to react, but I don't know of anything that reacts only under lower pressures than atmospheric.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

**



Miller Woodworks said:


> Please define "excited" for me. I believe that you are using it in a way that does not match my understanding of the word "excited". As I understand your statement, you are incorrect. Increasing the volume of a container to lower the pressure inside of the container would not excite the molecules of either of those gases.
> 
> 
> We actually have a good understanding of how photosynthesis works. Look up chlorophyll and photosynthesis if you'd like to find out how it works. What do you mean by "replicate photosynthesis"? Also, why do you think people are trying to do it, but are unable to?
> 
> 
> We already know photosynthesis works. It's not a new behavior in science. Do you mean synthesizing photosynthesis would be something new? Even if nobody has ever synthesized it before, it wouldn't be something new. It's still photosynthesis.
> All that aside, why are you trying to duplicate photosynthesis? It's already abundant. Just go plant a garden.
> 
> 
> Do you mean the formaldehyde to sugar and oxygen thing? You'd need some catalyst to get a reaction going. Just putting things in the same bottle doesn't work unless there is a reason for them to react to each other. Lowering the pressure is almost never a reason for things to react. Higher pressure can get certain things to react, but I don't know of anything that reacts only under lower pressures than atmospheric.


 @miller,
You are right about it still be photosynthesis. I did let Gilgaron know that some of the information that he posted was quite helpful
In some ways, it's like perpetual motion. If the wheel I am building works, then I'll be demonstrating that it's already has been accomplished, but not by using our current understanding of engineering. Even the Trebuchet surprised some people with the power that type of engine could develop.
What I am suggesting replicating photosynthesis is something I doubt has been tried. I have done numerous searches about water's evaporation rate under a vacuum and the only research I could find was done by NASA to try to understand how water might behave in the Martian atmosphere.
And you are right about >> Please define "excited" for me. I believe that you are using it in a way that does not match my understanding of the word "excited" <<. The way I am using it violates the laws governing thermodynamics.
An example of this is if you have a cylinder that has 10 cubic inches of formaldehyde and the cylinder is expanded to a volume of about 290 cubic inches. Because the formaldehyde would be forced to expand to occupy space, it would be in an excited state because the space it occupies has been increased and because of any flow of latent heat or other such energies.
I think it's this being excited by the space it occupies is what allows water to "evaporate" at low temperatures under a vacuum.
Currently, I am the only person I know that is considering this because it is something that could be used to clean up emissions from coal fired power plants.

Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@Miller, another way of looking at it is that I think currently that a gas like formaldehyde can not do work if it is effected by a vacuum. Generally, work requires latent heat.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Ah. You're thinking about the water evaporating improperly. Water doesn't naturally boil at 100c. Water boiling at 100c is only true under very specific conditions. The water must be under a certain pressure and must be pure water. Any contaminants alter the boiling and freezing points, normally making both points increase the range water will remain liquid. If you put water under less pressure than our atmospheric pressure, you don't "allow" it to boil at a lower temperature. At the conditions you're putting the water in, the water will boil at it's natural temperature, for those conditions. 100c isn't a magic temperature that water just wants to boil at.

Under a vacuum, the water and whatever else you have, doesn't get excited. It just behaves differently than it does under our atmospheric pressure. In your example, is the formaldehyde liquid, gaseous, or solid? Also, at what temperature and pressure is it? You see, that information is relevant to what it will do if you increase the volume. You may just end up with a 10 cubic inch solid chunk of formaldehyde at the bottom of a 290 cubic inch container. You may also end up with just a lower pressure and colder temperature jar of gaseous formaldehyde.
Reducing the pressure on something does not force it to evaporate. It evaporates because that's what it wants to do at that temperature and pressure.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Drying Wood*



Miller Woodworks said:


> Ah. You're thinking about the water evaporating improperly. Water doesn't naturally boil at 100c. Water boiling at 100c is only true under very specific conditions. The water must be under a certain pressure and must be pure water. Any contaminants alter the boiling and freezing points, normally making both points increase the range water will remain liquid. If you put water under less pressure than our atmospheric pressure, you don't "allow" it to boil at a lower temperature. At the conditions you're putting the water in, the water will boil at it's natural temperature, for those conditions. 100c isn't a magic temperature that water just wants to boil at.
> 
> Under a vacuum, the water and whatever else you have, doesn't get excited. It just behaves differently than it does under our atmospheric pressure. In your example, is the formaldehyde liquid, gaseous, or solid? Also, at what temperature and pressure is it? You see, that information is relevant to what it will do if you increase the volume. You may just end up with a 10 cubic inch solid chunk of formaldehyde at the bottom of a 290 cubic inch container. You may also end up with just a lower pressure and colder temperature jar of gaseous formaldehyde.
> Reducing the pressure on something does not force it to evaporate. It evaporates because that's what it wants to do at that temperature and pressure.


 There might be a better way of looking at it. If you have some green wood you want to work with, you can kiln dry it. Vacuum would do the same thing but would be more economical. 

@ room temperature, formaldehyde is a gas. Photosynthesis happens at room temperature.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde
CO2 is also a gas at room temperature.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/a/whatisdryice.htm

Still, in wood working, kilns are used to dry wood because that is the accepted practice. Yet if wood were placed in a vacuum, it would dry out just as with a kiln only once the vacuum is created, it would take little energy to maintain it while a kiln needs constant energy to maintain it's temperature.
And for all anyone knows, the expanded gasses in a vacuum chamber could act on the water, etc. inside wood just as thermal heat does. it's just you don't have a physical value to account for unless you consider that hg's of vacuum have a corresponding value that can be used in calculating thermodynamics, you know, a variation.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

There are vacuum kilns. They work by using the lower boiling point of water to increase the ratio between the ambient temperature and the effective boiling point of water. As that ratio approaches 1, the water moves out of the wood faster. You can increase that ratio by either warming the ambient air, or by reducing the boiling point of water. Normal kilns function on the first principle, vacuum kilns work by the second (or a combination of first and second).


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> There are vacuum kilns. They work by using the lower boiling point of water to increase the ratio between the ambient temperature and the effective boiling point of water. As that ratio approaches 1, the water moves out of the wood faster. You can increase that ratio by either warming the ambient air, or by reducing the boiling point of water. Normal kilns function on the first principle, vacuum kilns work by the second (or a combination of first and second).




On a side note, wonder why I'm not allowed to edit my posts. Kind of odd.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

J_Lindgaard said:


> On a side note, wonder why I'm not allowed to edit my posts. Kind of odd.


 Miller,
here's a link to photosynthesis. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis

Photosynthesis changes sunlight into chemical energy, splits water to liberate O2, and fixes CO2 into sugar.

It doesn't split water. They got it wrong. Details are important like understanding that CO2 and CH2O are both gasses at room temperature and water in a vacuum is still water. For water to become steam, heat is required. I worked with it enough. Besides, that's what they said in school any way.
Besides, CO2 emissions are only a part of climate change. Something that will not effect me because I was not allowed to have a family. It seems that people believe that my service connected hearing loss is a learning disability and as a result, they would not let me have a family. They wanted to "help" me by telling me what they would let me do.
Hell of a thanks for serving in the military but then, that is America because I live there.

BTW, sugar is C6H12O6, and the O2 comes from CO2 because this allows all 3 to become gasses which can expand in a vacuum. So very basic yet so badly missed. Sugar is a bit different trick that uses vacuum.
Think I'll work off line.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*The Kicker*

I thought I'd leave y'all with the trigger for photosynthesis. It's pretty cool actually.
After all, we do know that plants and vegetation need CO2 to live, not oxygen. And here's why,
http://bioh.wikispaces.com/2.1+Chlorophyll

Where you see CO2CH3, note that directly opposite that CH3 is attached to C. It could well be that chlorophyll absorbs a CO2 molecule excited by background radiation or solar radiation which would make it N3 or N4 as an atomic state. This means that it is positively charged. And if the CO2 attached to the chlorophyll molecule is at N0 or N1, it'd be like a dead battery. And when the fresh battery comes along, the chlorophyll molecule would go to work creating a vacuum in conjunction with other like molecules in the same cycle.
And when the CO2 loses it's charge, the chlorophyll, like your bicep when you relax, also relaxes. And when the vacuum is lost, all that excited CH20 collapses into itself while changing states causing it to fuse into C6H12O6 or sugar which the plant my store or use elsewhere. Kind of neat, huh ?
A plant uses CO2 the same way our muscles react to stimulation from our brain which triggers an effect. After all, you don't pump up your bicep, but expand it and when this happens, it draws blood into it which has nutrients and sugars to supply the cells with energy.
Kind of funny but it only took me a couple of months to figure this out. Still, Bessler's wheel is just as cool to me.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

You don't have to run off. I'd love to see the rest of the wheel build.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@Miller,
With me, it does get frustrating some times.

@All, the 2 pictures shows one way to have symmetrical pin locations. Route 1 side and one length, then when the part is flipped over and matched to the routing fixture, it will show the proper location for the second locating pin.
I've decided I'm going to route 1 side or length at a time. It'll be easier for me that way. I'm also going to make a portable dust port so I can try to limit how much clean up I have to do.
With the better build I'll be doing, I'm going to route the ends to allow the pieces to nest together. And for that, I will need my hole locations to be accurate.

Jim


----------



## Chad Holst

Something tells me we will not have to worry about Mr.lindgaard running off. 

I have read this entire thread, his other threads and many, many, many pages of his threads on other sites. 

First, let me say that many times special inventions/ideals/proofs come from special people. 

It is pretty apparent that our friend here is a bit different. That’s not a bad thing, i hope he takes it as the compliment that i mean it to be. However it is also apparent that Mr. L has some issues that are causing much strain on his work/project/communication/workability with others. Call it personality, call it strange, call it whatever you want, but the problem is pretty obvious when you read his writings/posts. 

With that said, i would like to offer some advice:

Don’t worry what others think. You are intelligent and YOU know that. That is enough.

Don’t worry about making it wrong. First worry about making it. You can modify it later.

When a person’s strength is "great thinking", typically their biggest weakness is "over thinking". These are two very different things. Be a great thinker not an over thinker. "Over thinkers" are always busy thinking while "great thinkers" are busy doing. Neither is smarter than the other...it is just that one ends up with a lot more to show for all the hard work they both do.

Ask for help, when you really need it. It shows strength of mind and character. 

Don't get into wars of wit and knowledge/information with other people. Wit is fun at a party and knowing information is great at school. it is wise to simply be humble and express your knowledge and wit through the actions you take. Mr. L does not have to defend himself to anyone, especially some random humans on a wood working forum...or the other forums you frequent. 

Public forums are great, and real friendships can be made, but generally most people on a "specific" forum such as a "woodworking" forum get turned off by all the personal drama. 

Keep it relevant to the topic, it will keep readers and commenters coming back to help and learn. ie, brain trauma, hearing loss, government meddling in family affairs. All important in the right forum.


Again, I really hope you don’t take offense to this post. I am really interested in your work and where you go with it. Maybe this will help keep the focus and get closer to a workable model to sample.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

sirlips said:


> Something tells me we will not have to worry about Mr.lindgaard running off.
> 
> I have read this entire thread, his other threads and many, many, many pages of his threads on other sites.
> 
> First, let me say that many times special inventions/ideals/proofs come from special people.
> 
> It is pretty apparent that our friend here is a bit different. That’s not a bad thing, i hope he takes it as the compliment that i mean it to be. However it is also apparent that Mr. L has some issues that are causing much strain on his work/project/communication/workability with others. Call it personality, call it strange, call it whatever you want, but the problem is pretty obvious when you read his writings/posts.
> 
> With that said, i would like to offer some advice:
> 
> Don’t worry what others think. You are intelligent and YOU know that. That is enough.
> 
> Don’t worry about making it wrong. First worry about making it. You can modify it later.
> 
> When a person’s strength is "great thinking", typically their biggest weakness is "over thinking". These are two very different things. Be a great thinker not an over thinker. "Over thinkers" are always busy thinking while "great thinkers" are busy doing. Neither is smarter than the other...it is just that one ends up with a lot more to show for all the hard work they both do.
> 
> Ask for help, when you really need it. It shows strength of mind and character.
> 
> Don't get into wars of wit and knowledge/information with other people. Wit is fun at a party and knowing information is great at school. it is wise to simply be humble and express your knowledge and wit through the actions you take. Mr. L does not have to defend himself to anyone, especially some random humans on a wood working forum...or the other forums you frequent.
> 
> Public forums are great, and real friendships can be made, but generally most people on a "specific" forum such as a "woodworking" forum get turned off by all the personal drama.
> 
> Keep it relevant to the topic, it will keep readers and commenters coming back to help and learn. ie, brain trauma, hearing loss, government meddling in family affairs. All important in the right forum.
> 
> 
> Again, I really hope you don’t take offense to this post. I am really interested in your work and where you go with it. Maybe this will help keep the focus and get closer to a workable model to sample.


 edited post because I believe I know who sirlips is. The attached picture is simple and works. If you notice, can't see any saw dust on the floor.
Still, I think I will be working off line because in the years I have wanted to work with someone, nobody has been up for it. And for me, it is how I am used to working.
Unfortunately, sirlips does not know how serious my health problem has been. They really wouldn't have a clue. And they do know I plan on moving to some other country where I can have a life. I mean really, when a person can say they are smart because they've sat home for over 20 years isn't something to be proud of. It's not as good as having a family.
And myself, have found sirlips to be a confusing person because not quite sure what he means sometimes. After all, if sirlips is who I think he is, when he got upset with me because of what I said to them, that started me on the path going from thinking how to restore aquifers (improved desalination) to a possible solution for Global Warming (same principle, different application).
And I think it is this last part they might have trouble accepting if it's found to be correct.
And for sirlips benefit :yes:, one picture that has kept me working on Bessler's wheel. One thing Bessler mentioned was that his weight's got their force from swinging. Pendulums do swing and develop torque at their fulcrum. Something often over looked.
But what it seems everyone has missed who has looked at this drawing are it's 3 crosses. Pendulums do not have cross bars. This would be Bessler's way of saying have faith, it works.
It seems today people do not have that among other things. And the strange part is that Bessler was half German and half Polish while I am half American and half Norwegian.
It could be that people like myself and Bessler can't have just one perspective but learn to see things from other people's perspectives.
Still, if all this works out, won't mean much to me. it's not what I wanted in life.


----------



## Chad Holst

Mr L, 

I hope things go well for you. As far as thinking that I'm someone you know, I have never messaged or spoken to you before. I started reading this thread 2 days ago and looked up besslers wheel, as I had no idea what it was or the ideas behind it. I then saw the other posts and issues you had with folks on those forums. When miller commented about your work and you replied the way you did I thought I would comment.

From the posts on the other forum I read about your struggles in life. I can not relate to them but I think I can understand your frustration. that is why I thought it would be best to suggest that you keep up on your ideas and keep this forum as a "work only" type of venue. 

I'm from Rochester MN...a banker by day and a father, friend, coach... in my spare time. I also run a Non profit for kids and the outdoors. I love to learn, so this type of thread (and the other forum) intrigues me, even though I have NO IDEA what a lot of the technical stuff you guys are talking about is, lol. I read one post here, then spend 20 minutes reading wiki's or other sites to see what the heck you guys are talking about. hee hee. Call it greedy, but I hope you decide to continue posting your progress. I'm curious, but I think it would also help you.

That's the short and long of it. whatever you decide I wish you well.

-----------

Now to get back on topic... I read somewhere on one of the other forums that someone once made a gas engine from wood. The obvious question was "why"... I think that the answer is something to do with "to see if can be done", a challenge, etc...but the idea stuck with me, when thinking about this thread. The engine was made from wood because wood ISNT an obvious material to make such a thing. it was simple to see if it would work.
So my question is why wood for the bessler wheel? it would seem that there are much better things to use that may seal water better and make the mechanics smoother or more efficient. is it like the engine I spoke of and its the "challenge"?Is it a materials price issue? Is it to make it out of the same types of materials bessler would have had available in his time? (I know you have stated that you are not trying to prove the theory but simply to show the already proven theory by bessler. meaning to prove bessler did in fact make it, using the materials he would have head) both are understandable. Maybe wood is easier to work with and just happen to be what you are most comfortable with?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Might be done. Too much work when I can't even ask a girlfriend if they like it.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Wood*



sirlips said:


> Mr L,
> 
> I hope things go well for you. As far as thinking that I'm someone you know, I have never messaged or spoken to you before. I started reading this thread 2 days ago and looked up besslers wheel, as I had no idea what it was or the ideas behind it. I then saw the other posts and issues you had with folks on those forums. When miller commented about your work and you replied the way you did I thought I would comment.
> 
> From the posts on the other forum I read about your struggles in life. I can not relate to them but I think I can understand your frustration. that is why I thought it would be best to suggest that you keep up on your ideas and keep this forum as a "work only" type of venue.
> 
> I'm from Rochester MN...a banker by day and a father, friend, coach... in my spare time. I also run a Non profit for kids and the outdoors. I love to learn, so this type of thread (and the other forum) intrigues me, even though I have NO IDEA what a lot of the technical stuff you guys are talking about is, lol. I read one post here, then spend 20 minutes reading wiki's or other sites to see what the heck you guys are talking about. hee hee. Call it greedy, but I hope you decide to continue posting your progress. I'm curious, but I think it would also help you.
> 
> That's the short and long of it. whatever you decide I wish you well.
> 
> -----------
> 
> Now to get back on topic... I read somewhere on one of the other forums that someone once made a gas engine from wood. The obvious question was "why"... I think that the answer is something to do with "to see if can be done", a challenge, etc...but the idea stuck with me, when thinking about this thread. The engine was made from wood because wood ISNT an obvious material to make such a thing. it was simple to see if it would work.
> So my question is why wood for the bessler wheel? it would seem that there are much better things to use that may seal water better and make the mechanics smoother or more efficient. is it like the engine I spoke of and its the "challenge"?Is it a materials price issue? Is it to make it out of the same types of materials bessler would have had available in his time? (I know you have stated that you are not trying to prove the theory but simply to show the already proven theory by bessler. meaning to prove bessler did in fact make it, using the materials he would have head) both are understandable. Maybe wood is easier to work with and just happen to be what you are most comfortable with?


Sirlip,
My background is in Propulsion Engineering and machining. If I still worked as a machinist, this would've been finished a long time ago because something like aluminum is much easier to work with.
Although I think when it comes to wood, it's something that people have always enjoyed working with ever since who knows when. And with most water wheels being made of wood and are known to work quite well, it might be being traditional in a way.
After all, this is the 21st Century and just about every things is made out of plastic and is mass produced.
This is something people can do and if I do a good job of simplifying the build process, they might enjoy building one for themselves.
With this though, I think after I finish the first wheel, everything will go a lot better because of the experience gained from putting up with all the hassles of going through a build process.

Jim

edited to add; sent an e-mail to the chemistry dept. at Eastern Kentucky University to see if they might try the photosynthesis idea.
With what Gilgaron let me know about the current view of how the process works, I was able to ask them to consider if a C+CH3 set up acted as a receptor for appositively charged CO2 molecule.
I'm going to try to start routing the boards for frame support this weekend and also make pieces for clamping curved parts.

2nd edit; right now my body is going through changes which is a part of the healing process. Close to being over so will be able to feel better all the time when I'm back to normal.


----------



## mobilepaul

Perhaps, if you use this to treat the wood, water will no longer be an issue.

http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/neverwet/


----------



## J_Lindgaard

mobilepaul said:


> Perhaps, if you use this to treat the wood, water will no longer be an issue.
> 
> http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/neverwet/


 For what I'm doing, that might work. I read some reviews on it and since the inside of the bellow wouldn't have anything to cause it to wear.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Hydraulic Theory*

Sirlip et al,
The picture on the left is what Heron of Alexandria thought of way back when. The other drawing is Bessler's from about 300 years ago.
If you notice, they use vacuum (absence of air) to lift the water in the cylinders. By using a plunger on one side to lift water that is 6 inches deep and 5 ft. across, if it lifted a column of water to 9 inches tall, the rest of the water could be only 3 inches deep meaning that 1/2 of the water is in the column.
And the column would be 2 1/2 ft. from the center. And if that plunger lowered 3 inches so that all the water is 6 inches deep, then a plunger on the opposite side lifting 3 inches would have 1/2 of the water in a column 5 feet away with 2 plungers moving a total of 6 inches. 
Realistically, each plunger would travel 12 inches. But 1/2 of the water would move 5 ft.
That is one heck of a shift in balance. And that is why I think Bessler's wheel will work. The shift in force that I just described is 5 times the work being done. While this works with water, with a solid weight, it would follow the normal rules for ratios. The difference is that water can flow.


----------



## Chad Holst

Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate you putting it in a way I could understand. If I hear you correctly the main goal is to make an enclosed system that can produce more energy than it takes to run? I understand the basic laws as we know them and that is supposed to break that law, but only as we understand them. I think the point of all this for you is to not try and prove the understanding of physics is wrong but to actually help others. That is simply amazing to even consider, regardless of what the results are. 

Again I'm over my head here but wouldn't it be simpler to try and harness the massive stores of energy we have, that would never run out in our earths life time? For example, the laws say energy can not be created but only transferred. So we currently use the energy stored in fossil fuels to transfer it into heat, etc... But what about magnetic energy, or other non fossil fuels? Even if the result of a bessler wheel can't make a pure (self stimulating) energy surely a small amount of magnetic energy added to the unit could tip the scales in the favor of positive work. Yes even magnets run out over time... But we have a planetary supply that will out live the earth. Our entire planet runs on a magnetic field from our sun/moon/spinning, etc. 

I have heard people say that a bessler wheel comes very "close" but doesn't actually get to the point of netting an energy gain, and I've heard people say that the magnetic systems are able to supply power but not without the use of a system that is inefficient like electric, so why not combine the two to make up for the lack each other's system has? 

Again, I'm over my head here but I'm just spit balling an idea.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*In Time*



sirlips said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate you putting it in a way I could understand. If I hear you correctly the main goal is to make an enclosed system that can produce more energy than it takes to run? I understand the basic laws as we know them and that is supposed to break that law, but only as we understand them. I think the point of all this for you is to not try and prove the understanding of physics is wrong but to actually help others. That is simply amazing to even consider, regardless of what the results are.
> 
> Again I'm over my head here but wouldn't it be simpler to try and harness the massive stores of energy we have, that would never run out in our earths life time? For example, the laws say energy can not be created but only transferred. So we currently use the energy stored in fossil fuels to transfer it into heat, etc... But what about magnetic energy, or other non fossil fuels? Even if the result of a bessler wheel can't make a pure (self stimulating) energy surely a small amount of magnetic energy added to the unit could tip the scales in the favor of positive work. Yes even magnets run out over time... But we have a planetary supply that will out live the earth. Our entire planet runs on a magnetic field from our sun/moon/spinning, etc.
> 
> I have heard people say that a bessler wheel comes very "close" but doesn't actually get to the point of netting an energy gain, and I've heard people say that the magnetic systems are able to supply power but not without the use of a system that is inefficient like electric, so why not combine the two to make up for the lack each other's system has?
> 
> Again, I'm over my head here but I'm just spit balling an idea.


 Sirlips,
Many people over the years has tried to make sense of how Bessler's wheel worked. It could be the years of classes and work dealing with drawings and blueprints that has allowed me to understand his work.
I have posted in a water form that places where people have access to well water but no way to pump it, this would give them a limited source of energy. I do have a design using solar radiation and vacuum to desalinate and possibly purify water. Such a system would be for people that are in reality dirt poor.
The link is to some of things that Bessler is supposed to have demonstrated. And one person who is supposed to have observed it is Gottfried Liebniz who was a contemporary of Newton's and has his own work in "inventing" Integral Calculus along with Newton. I don't think they worked together but it would be their work that has lead to what calculus has become.
http://besslerwheel.com/accounts.html


With the 2 pics, I may take a close up of the ring to show it's detail a little bit better. The locating holes I drilled were done one at a time and just clamped the end not being drilled.
For the next wheel, I will need to make a better jig for routing the sides so they'll mate close to perfection. With what I'm doing now, wood filler and some banding will cover the seems.
I still need to make 3 more rings so I can glue 2 together for support and for mounting some long levers. 
By the way sirlips, this is something I've been working on for about 7 or 8 years. It was only a couple years ago when I realized that Bessler used water. Even then, it took me about another 6 months to understand how much force it could have.
An example is that if you use 8 - 1 lb. weights, with leverage operating a bellow or vacuum pump, it might be possible to have 3 lbs. of water being moved upwards. And at a distance of 2 ft., that would be 6 ft. lbs. of torque.
That would be if the water is moving around the outside like with a water wheel. And it's well known how much work a water wheel can do.
With what some of the witnesses described, a 6 ft. radius and if it were about 18 inches wide, it could hold 20 to 30 lbs. of water or about 5 gallons. That's be about 180 ft. lbs. of torque, about .7 hp. 

For those who have no power supply available, it would be of some help. Still, I like the engineering myself.
You might want to look at some of his drawings. Many of them have clues and myself, I kind of doubt anyone will take the interest in them that I have but that's okay. I'm kind of an engineering nerd.

http://besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:MT

Some drawings you might find interesting are Mt's 106 & 107. They show a typical water wheel and then with the water on the inside.
Mt's 125 & 127. 125 shows bellows with a tube connecting them, 127 shows the bellows being connected and meeting at the hub. Mt 127 is what I am currently building.


Jim


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Detail ?*

@All,
A bit better idea of how well the parts are mating to each other. By gluing 2 rings together, it will be 1/2 inch thick so should be structurally sound for what I'm doing.

@sirlips, I've put a lot of effort into trying to build a wheel where the water goes around the inside of the wheel. I think after the 2 builds I'm doing now, I might be able to get some help on something like that. You know, someone with more experience. Anyway, hopefully next weekend I can get the radius clamps made so I can start assembling the rings.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Clues and Drawings*

@sirlips, this is kind of what I was talking about in my message about how a hearing loss can help me fit things together when all the pieces aren't there.

@All,
Some of this is reposting but helps to explain what Bessler was talking about in his Apologia Poetica when he said these 2 things;
A wheel appears - is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim.
And The things we eat run through every limb and sinue of our bodies. 
http://besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html

With Mt 26, a weight rolls in channel E. In Mt 27, he mentions heart shaped weights but not the channels and what runs through them.
You see, what runs through our body is our blood or a fluid. And it is the heart which pumps it. With channel E in the rim, then his comment in his poem makes sense.
And when a weighted lever drops, it causes fluid in the channel to be pumped. I tried compression for a long while until I realized that drawing the water up such as what a well pump does is much more efficient.
It may take some going back and forth to understand his comments and his drawings, but consider that when the lever drops that it opens a bellow drawing the water upwards.
I think having the water moving inside the rim will be much more difficult than what I am building now but in time.
And as for everything else in the 2 drawings, just things to obscure what he wanted to get across. This could be why he didn't mention it in the 2nd drawing, kind of changed the subject without changing it. You know, what's with the channel ? Or could be he wanted someone to ask that question.

"No. 26: This is somewhat different from the previous model, but it can be described simply: A are levers which are interrupted at B and equipped with weight-wheels at C. The weight-wheels run in a channel E and are attached to the cords D. As the diagram shows, one side is heavier than the other. Behind this problem one looks for an augmented problem." 
_- Johann Bessler_ "No. 27: This is the previous model slightly larger and altered: A are the levers interrupted at B and having a heart-weight at C, and D are the straps, or cords, and chains. It needs no further, lengthier explanation. This view shows what the thing might do if several things of this sort were placed next to one another along an axle-shaft." 
_- Johann Bessler_

_ @sirlip et al,_
_ I thought I'd mention that I sent 2 short e-mails to the president of Eastern Kentucky University. I have given more thought to what Gilgaron and Miller Woodworks had mentioned and rechecked some of my information._
_ Basically anything from a plunger to a turkey baster that creates a vacuum is affecting gasses on a quantum level. This is something that has really had no value in science because of the simple question, how does this matter if it doesn't do work on the quantum level ?_
_ I am hopeful that the Pres. of EKU will talk to the person I have sent some information to. They might realize that if carbon dioxide and outgassed water under a vacuum creates oxygen and formaldehyde, they would have a major break through. This is one of the reasons why sometimes I might go off topic, discussing things does help. And if EKU checks it out and it works, then who knows what they or others in academics would be able to come up with._
_ Myself, will be needing 2 buy 2 trim router bits for making tooling. Will show a somewhat step by step process for doing it. It will be for if you need to clamp or route a specific shape to hold something specific. You'll understand better when I can show my work._

_ Jim_


----------



## J_Lindgaard

sirlips said:


> Something tells me we will not have to worry about Mr.lindgaard running off.
> 
> I have read this entire thread, his other threads and many, many, many pages of his threads on other sites.
> 
> First, let me say that many times special inventions/ideals/proofs come from special people.
> 
> It is pretty apparent that our friend here is a bit different. That’s not a bad thing, i hope he takes it as the compliment that i mean it to be. However it is also apparent that Mr. L has some issues that are causing much strain on his work/project/communication/workability with others. Call it personality, call it strange, call it whatever you want, but the problem is pretty obvious when you read his writings/posts.
> 
> With that said, i would like to offer some advice:
> 
> Don’t worry what others think. You are intelligent and YOU know that. That is enough.
> 
> Don’t worry about making it wrong. First worry about making it. You can modify it later.
> 
> When a person’s strength is "great thinking", typically their biggest weakness is "over thinking". These are two very different things. Be a great thinker not an over thinker. "Over thinkers" are always busy thinking while "great thinkers" are busy doing. Neither is smarter than the other...it is just that one ends up with a lot more to show for all the hard work they both do.
> 
> Ask for help, when you really need it. It shows strength of mind and character.
> 
> Don't get into wars of wit and knowledge/information with other people. Wit is fun at a party and knowing information is great at school. it is wise to simply be humble and express your knowledge and wit through the actions you take. Mr. L does not have to defend himself to anyone, especially some random humans on a wood working forum...or the other forums you frequent.
> 
> Public forums are great, and real friendships can be made, but generally most people on a "specific" forum such as a "woodworking" forum get turned off by all the personal drama.
> 
> Keep it relevant to the topic, it will keep readers and commenters coming back to help and learn. ie, brain trauma, hearing loss, government meddling in family affairs. All important in the right forum.
> 
> 
> Again, I really hope you don’t take offense to this post. I am really interested in your work and where you go with it. Maybe this will help keep the focus and get closer to a workable model to sample.


 @All,
There is something I have always referred to as Character Assassination because you attack someone's credibility.
Here is how sirlips (not his real name) attacks mine >> However it is also apparent that Mr. L has some issues that are causing much strain on his work/project/communication/workability with others. Call it personality, call it strange, call it whatever you want, but the problem is pretty obvious when you read his writings/posts. <<

He has no previous engineering, mechanical or wood working experience. If you notice, sirlips does not mention working through adversity. Most likely because they have not done it themselves. But I will not post openly any more because I have tolerated this for most of the time I have been working on bessler's wheel and so far, the only credible people are the experts who have no work to discuss.
Besides, I am about 14 years older than sirlips and a disabled Veteran. but an fu ck ed up according to him. Makes me wish I never learned English. Still, had to move to America because daddy said so, my mom was American. So sad.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*What sirlips is talking about*

From overunity.com and ab hammer, someone who states that he is an American man that he should have anything I do that is of value. will not admit to serving in the Coast Gaurd even though he states that he proudly flies their flag.

>> 
Quote from: Marsing on January 26, 2014, 05:02:25 AM
i found all drawings ( 143 drawings ) 
start here http://besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20

i still have a question, are those drawing is bessel's drawing or somebody else ? 

we are waiting.​Greetings Marsing

The MTs as we call them, are of failed wheels. Some? Bessler may have well done to test but, the majority are not Bessler's. Bessler put them in his books to learn from for he wanted to start a school/college for perpetual motion and their studies. What Bessler did say is he found the answer where everyone has looked before and with a discerning eye can find the answer in the MTs. This is not exactly how he said it, but it is how it is understood. 

Alan <<

http://www.overunity.com/14222/current-build-projects/45/

In besslerwheel.com, I was banned because an investment banker wanted everyone to support him because he claimed that Bessler violated the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. He wanted to keep his mind sharp as he put it.
The investment banker started a thread saying I should be banned because... No real reason, I was building and he wasn't. 
Some people said that they wanted me in the forum so they could see how everything goes with my build but a few people out of about 1700 won out.
I have told the woman I know that building Bessler's wheel so I can show it to her is what has helped to keep me motivated while working my way through severe medical issues caused by my surgeons negligence after I had major surgery.
Besides, I might like her but still, wouldn't mind having a friend like her. :yes:

@sirlips, if I am successful, other engineering projects I will be pursuing is a water purifier/desalination system which between solar radiation and Bessler's wheel, people who do not have access to clean and safe drinking might be able to have it. i also am going to try to improve the current RO system as well as a few other things.
But my favorite one would be my wind turbine design which if it works, might be able to take the U.S. energy generation from wind power from it's current level of about 3.75% to 10%.
What would allow me to consider this is knowing some of the history of aeronautical engineering.
In some ways, it is more than I should be trying but my hearing loss has given me time to consider how current systems can be modified and improved upon.
And all this started when I went to school for Propulsion Engineering while I was serving in the U.S. Navy.
Besides, when the Boeing Airplane Co. could not sell airplanes, they made furniture to keep their doors open.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Trim Router*

@All,
I bought a trim router this payday. I'll be making a 1/2x2 sub frame for my trim router table. That and a dust collector so I can keep my work area a little cleaner.
I have let sirlips know that with Global Warming/climate change that I will have to get it right the first time. If I had a degree and worked at a university, I'd have room for error. Myself, I think it is that important.
Also, am catching up on maintenance on my car and still have a little ways to go health wise. Do expect everything to work out fine.
Who knows, maybe sirlips will ending up building a wheel or 2 himself. I know working at it has helped me to keep my head above water while dealing with my medical situation the last few years.

Jim

p.s., it's a good sign for me, the trim router is a DeWALT DWP611.


----------



## Chad Holst

Mr. l 

I did not mean to insult you and I apologies if it came across that way. I only wished to state my opinion on what I thought may help. No more, no less. 

I wish you and your projects well.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

**



sirlips said:


> Mr. l
> 
> I did not mean to insult you and I apologies if it came across that way. I only wished to state my opinion on what I thought may help. No more, no less.
> 
> I wish you and your projects well.



sirlips,
I think if you do try to build one of these, at times you might find it very frustrating. And then after a while you'll find there different things you can try or maybe even know that as you said, slowing down a little would be a good idea.
With the trim router table I'm setting up, it's portable and can be clamped to a work bench. This way, if space is tight like my working in a 10x14 area or you having a one car garage, it'd allow for a more efficient use of space.
I'll need to wait until I get paid again to buy the trim router bits I need. But once I have my little router table ready to go, I'll be able to start on the parts I'll need for my other build.
With that, I'll be using 3 routing templates. I'll post pics when I get to that point which hopefully will be by this coming weekend.

@Miller Woodworking.
I have been checking and rechecking how the laws of thermodynamics apply to what I believe will be a working demonstration of cold fusion or photosynthesis.
It is the 2nd law that explains the conditions that govern why it would work; 
The entropy of any isolated system cannot decrease. Such systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium.
And since both carbon dioxide and water can not suffer entropy under vacuum, thermodynamic equilibrium is reached when they both become gasses. And this requires CO2 to give up it's carbon element so water can change into a gas as well.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

I'm not convinced that you and I are referring to the same process when we say "fusion". It seems like you're equating cold fusion with photosynthesis. That's not the case. 

Fusion is the combination of atomic nuclei resulting in a "new" atom at the cost of the two that were combined. That is, a fusion reaction can combine two protons (hydrogen nuclei) into a single helium nucleus. The hydrogen that went into the reaction doesn't come out as hydrogen. The helium that came out didn't go in as helium. Strangely, the helium nucleus has slightly less mass than two hydrogen nuclei. That's where the hot comes in. The lost mass is transformed into energy. This transfer happens at given rate. Remember E=MC^2? That's the rate at which it's transferred. That small amount of mass that's lost yields a huge amount of energy. That's why cold fusion is a pipe dream. Fusion is anything but cold.

Photosynthesis on the other hand, doesn't combine atomic nuclei. It rearranges molecules and atoms. All of the oxygen that goes into photosynthesis comes out of it. Same thing with the carbon, and hydrogen. Only the bonds between those elements are changed, not the elements themselves. It costs some energy to do all that, which is where the sunlight comes in. All photosynthesis does is rearrange molecules. It doesn't change atoms.

I don't see why CO2 and H2O can not become thermodynamically equalized under a vacuum. Why do they both have to become gaseous? And why does H2O becoming gaseous require carbon? Water becomes gaseous on its own at pretty much any temperature. Ice cubes can completely sublime in your freezer if you just leave them alone long enough.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> I'm not convinced that you and I are referring to the same process when we say "fusion". It seems like you're equating cold fusion with photosynthesis. That's not the case.
> 
> I don't see why CO2 and H2O can not become thermodynamically equalized under a vacuum. Why do they both have to become gaseous? And why does H2O becoming gaseous require carbon? Water becomes gaseous on its own at pretty much any temperature. Ice cubes can completely sublime in your freezer if you just leave them alone long enough.


 Miller,
I think even most scientists would have a problem with this and one thing I will be able to mention is that science is supposed to be based on empirical evidence. You know, testing is supposed to be done to either validate or refute a hypothesis.
If you or anyone else would like to check something interesting out, go to GooglEarth and go to the Yucatan Peninsula where the asteroid struck 65 million years ago. From there, proceed in a northwesterly direction.
What you'll see is when you're about half way through Texas are that Mesa's start appearing. Keep looking in that direction until you get to the Grand Canyon and see smaller Mesa's.
If you go any further, you will not see any more Mesa's. What geologists seem to have missed is that the shock wave from the impact of the asteroid
slowed in Texas and it's energy was expressed more as angular momentum and when it raised the ground causing it to split, it's energy was basically spent.
The rolling hills are the crumple zone from where the Pacific Plate is subduction zone off the coast of California, basically the North American Tectonic Plate is being kept from moving in a westerly direction and has a crumple zone like a car in an accident.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Les Paul*

http://lespaulfoundation.org/about-les-paul.html

His boyhood home was across the street from railroad tracks. He puzzled why trains vibrated the windows


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> I'm not convinced that you and I are referring to the same process when we say "fusion". It seems like you're equating cold fusion with photosynthesis. That's not the case.
> 
> Fusion is the combination of atomic nuclei resulting in a "new" atom at the cost of the two that were combined. That is, a fusion reaction can combine two protons (hydrogen nuclei) into a single helium nucleus.
> I don't see why CO2 and H2O can not become thermodynamically equalized under a vacuum. Why do they both have to become gaseous? And why does H2O becoming gaseous require carbon? Water becomes gaseous on its own at pretty much any temperature. Ice cubes can completely sublime in your freezer if you just leave them alone long enough.


@All,
Will be working off line. I am still recovering from when I had cancer 5 years ago. My doctors were careless to put it politely.
As for Miller, he has told me he has a college education, why he is right and I am wrong.
>>I don't see why CO2 and H2O can not become thermodynamically equalized under a vacuum. <<

Even a 6th grader knows not to use a double negative in a sentence.

>> Fusion is the combination of atomic nuclei resulting in a "new" atom at the cost of the two that were combined. <<

You mean like CO2 and H2O forming O2 and C6H12O6 ?

>> That is, a fusion reaction can combine two protons (hydrogen nuclei) into a single helium nucleus. <<

Helium also has 2 neutrons, oops. It's the beta decay in radiation. Your point is ?

Folks, kind of why I'll be staying off line. Would rather impress one gal just to say thanks for being a friend.

For miller who told me Helium is 2 hydrogen atoms combined, what's with the 2 neutrons ?
>> Fusion is the combination of atomic nuclei resulting in a "new" atom at the cost of the two that were combined. That is, a fusion reaction can combine two protons (hydrogen nuclei) into a single helium nucleus. <<

Helium (He) has 2 protons, 2 neutrons, and 2 electrons in a single atom. It is a colorless noble gas that is commonly used in filling balloons to make them float. 

http://chemistry.about.com/od/generalchemistry/ss/11th-Grade-Chemistry-Notes-And-Review_3.htm

p.s., Miller, nothing replaces doing your homework. I have had 20 years to go over things because of the often blatant discrimination I have faced because of my service connected hearing loss.
Enjoy and Much Love to YOU !!

p.s.s., Uh, Miller, it takes 4 hydrogen nuclei to make just 1 helium element. This is because two of the protons would give up a single quark which would then become the 2 electrons.


----------



## ryan50hrl

There are more scientific inaccuracies in this thread than I can even count....

Laws of thermodynamics don't lie guys...


----------



## J_Lindgaard

ryan50hrl said:


> There are more scientific inaccuracies in this thread than I can even count....
> 
> Laws of thermodynamics don't lie guys...


 
First law of thermodynamics: Because energy is conserved, the internal energy of a system changes as heat flows in or out of it

Second law of thermodynamics: The entropy of any isolated system cannot decrease. Such systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium 

Hmm, Ryan, where was I wrong ? The 1st law is based on latent heat or magnetic fields while the 2nd is ?
In a vacuum, the potential of any gas or liquid can not decrease.
Sad to say, even stainless steel will sweat water under an extreme vacuum.
BTW, an isolated system is one that does not interact with any other potential. A vacuum is the only force that allows for such conditions.
Such as water under an extreme vacuum loses cohesion. This doesn't matter unless you are using a Reverse Osmosis system which then it could lower the pressure from 80 bars to as low as 20 bars. That would be a significant cost savings.
You could cut your energy bill by 75%. That is if you knew how to sustain such a vacuum with minimal cost. I don't think they do or they'd be doing it already.
Nothing personal mind you but there could be a lot at stake here. 

Jim


----------



## Miller Woodworks

It's a shame that you've decided to quit posting about your build progress. Like I told you in a few PMs, nothing would make me happier than seeing a perpetual motion machine come to fruition and prove conclusively that our understanding of physics since Newton is completely wrong. 

For the record, I did say that I have a college education. I did not say that having that education made me right and you wrong. There are plenty of people who have been to college and are wrong about many things. William Lane Craig for example has a college education and is often wrong.

The remainder of your post, I am happy leaving as-is for everyone to read. Please click his link that has some info about helium and isotopes. It's kinda basic, but good information.


----------



## ryan50hrl

J_Lindgaard said:


> Nothing personal mind you but there could be a lot at stake here.
> 
> Jim



Good Luck Jim.......


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Slowly*

@Ryan & Miller,
The gal I've mentioned is an officer in the U.S. Navy. She once asked me if I was doing this to impress her.
I told her the first build has to be for Bessler to demonstrate that he was successful. But after that, I could do my builds to show my gratitude for her befriending me.
Myself being a Navy veteran, I would have no need to embarrass her.
Besides, even if she were not an officer in the U.S. Navy, I would still want to impress her. With that said, when I was in the Navy, I was on 2 ships. one was the U.S.S. Kittyhawk. I am from Dayton, Ohio and find this meaningless just as I worked for the Boeing Airplane Co. I did work in an engine room where the steam was 1200 psi @ 986 degrees.
In the hot well, the steam turned to condensate. The hot well's vacuum was maintained at about 28 hg's. The condensate depression was 2 degrees.
This means that if the condensed water's temperature rose 2 degrees, it would flash into steam.
This is where the 1st and 2nd Law's of Thermodynamics can best be understood. Before condensation, steam functions according to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics.
Once it condenses into water under vacuum, it follows the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. 
Needless to say, most people who work in an engine room wouldn't consider this. It really has no practical value.

Jim

p.s., because I bought my trim router, I've been slowed up. When I show the difference between the basic build and what I want to do, I think you'll understand.


----------



## TimPa

been lurking this thread and enjoying your build Jim. looking foward to more.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

TimPa said:


> been lurking this thread and enjoying your build Jim. looking foward to more.


 Tim,
I have let Miller know that I've stopped all work. We've been pm'ing each other and he's been explaining to me that I'm basically ignorant.
This is his latest message. The reason I mention it is because I went to "A" school for Propulsion Engineering in the U.S. Navy and the gal I know is also in the Navy.
You see, when I went to school, we were taught that atmospheric air pressure was 14.2 psia. The a means absolute. Yet today, atmospheric air pressure is 14.6 psi. The atmosphere is becoming denser. Of course, most people probably don't remember 1985. Instead, they refer to updated sources for their information.

Your wikipedia article is making reference to layman's terms. When I said that there is no such thing as a vacuum or negative pressure, I was speaking from a scientific, literal standpoint. Yes, you can pull a vacuum on a sealed container. That is however only true if the entire system that you're dealing with is under pressure. Here on Earth, you start with 14.7 psi (roughly) and simply reduce the pressure from that point. Vacuum is the absence of pressure. In that same sense, dark doesn't exist either. Dark is just the absence of light. It's the light that is something that exists, not the dark. I suppose I should have specified that I was being very technical at that point. Sorry for being ambiguous.


----------



## TimPa

people often state their opinion when they don't agree with something, human nature. sometimes we just have to stick to our beliefs, and learn what can be learned.


----------



## ryan50hrl

The lack of empirical evidence to support that the system works is the issue most have. If the science was behind it....it would be in commercial production. There's a lot of speculation and conjecture....just not much proof.


----------



## Chad Holst

Jim,
When people offer a counter idea it doesn’t mean they think you are dumb. When people don’t agree with you, it’s not to challenge you personally. I have not seen one person attack you here. I cannot speak to the "PM's" you get from others, but i know what i have sent you in "PM's" and there is nothing attacking about them, yet you take these posts as personal attacks.

Others may not say it, but i will:
 You need to learn the difference between being personally attacked and people giving kind and thought out opinions that differs from yours. People, in my opinion, are generally good. I have seen nothing but that here. People also have very short patients when it comes to online discussions. If you push them, they will simply leave. I think it would be a help to have peoples ideals and opinions when working on a project as tough as “proving newton wrong”


Ryan, miller and myself have told you that your work is interesting and we would like to see where it goes. We don’t have to agree with you, just as you don’t have to agree with us. The lesson to be learned is that you can grow from others opinions, instead of making that a conflict. 

You may be able to control others with threats and "poor me" stories, but I don’t think that is going to get you anywhere you want to go. 
Infact:
If you really are going to stop posting, then stop threatening it and simply do it. (not that i think you should and i hope you realize no one wants you to really leave, but darn man...you’re a grown, smart man...this isn’t the 3rd grade)

If you can’t take opinions from others, then stop posting yours on a public forum. (Again, i hope you don’t mind other opinions and you do keep posting yours, but again, giving out opinion and not being able to take it is a recipe for no one wanting to listen to you)

If you don't like it when people talk about personal things then don’t bring them up. My first post here was to advice that you keep this about woodworking and Bessler’s wheel. Yet you have talked about woman you did/did not mean to impress, cancer, the Navy, hearing loss, brain injury, poor Dr's, poor child hoods, the government taking away your rights, etc.... That may all be interesting, i think it is, but not here...unless your goal is to really just debate out your life’s issues in which case they should move this thread to "off topic" rather than a “design and plans” thread, if it even belongs on a site like this in the first place.
 Because my PM’s to you are about this have not gotten through to you, I will emphasize this point. All of the personal topics you have brought up are nothing to hide or keep to yourself. I think there are many great discussions to be had about them. However THIS is not the place. Not only because it’s not that “type of forum” but also I think it would help you to have a place to simply talk “shop” about Besslers wheel. To keep the discussion on task. This is not a personal attack, it’s not a reflection on any of your issues, it is simply my suggestion to help the “design and plans” continue, if you choose to without the drama that distracts from production.


So, what’s going on with the design and plans and the progress you have made? Questions you have or theories you are working on to help construct it? I bet MANY of us would love to continue that conversation.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*History*

@All,
Engineering supports this. It does something differently than what convention allows for.
Consider when Thomas Edison got removed from the board of I think it was General Electric Edison. He got into a public fight with someone who worked for him by the name if Nikola Tesla. He went as far as electrocuting animals and people to attempt to show that a.c. electricity was dangerous.
D.C. electricity is cheaper to produce but has a higher rate of entropy. Why only a few countries use it. Also, modern electronics would suffer being ran on d.c. electricity because it is not phased as well as a.c. electricity.
What is the difference between a.c. and d.c. current ?
it's simple, a.c. current is ran 90 degrees out of phase. This was considered impossible until Tesla demonstrated that it was actually preferable to accepted convention on what is possible.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

AC power did have a rough start. It basically pushes the electrons from the breaker to the appliance, then switches and pulls them from the appliance to the breaker. The switch is pretty quick and in the US is done 60 times a second. With normal household AC current, 240 volt lines are run with two 120 volt hots that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other so that the resulting voltage is 240 between the two hot legs. I'm not sure what a single AC leg can be out of phase with.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> AC power did have a rough start. It basically pushes the electrons from the breaker to the appliance, then switches and pulls them from the appliance to the breaker. The switch is pretty quick and in the US is done 60 times a second. With normal household AC current, 240 volt lines are run with two 120 volt hots that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other so that the resulting voltage is 240 between the two hot legs. I'm not sure what a single AC leg can be out of phase with.



If you'd look at the wiring diagram, it's obvious.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Wiring diagrams don't show that kind of information though. Teach me, what am I missing?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> Wiring diagrams don't show that kind of information though. Teach me, what am I missing?


 Bye Miller. I want to be able to enjoy my build. And when I'm finished with it, do know you are someone I would not care to know.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Assuming that the drawing you have there is a 100% accurate drawing of how all AC power is generated, those wiring sets are not 90 degrees apart. They are about 60 degrees apart. 

There are fundamental differences between AC and DC. A 90 degree phase shift is not one of them. I would like to explain to you all of the differences between AC and DC, and what electrical phases are and how they can be shifted. Unfortunately, I don't think that my explanation of those things will be sufficient for you.

How are you coming with the wheel build? Any progress pictures?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Tesla*



Miller Woodworks said:


> Assuming that the drawing you have there is a 100% accurate drawing of how all AC power is generated, those wiring sets are not 90 degrees apart. They are about 60 degrees apart.
> 
> There are fundamental differences between AC and DC. A 90 degree phase shift is not one of them. I would like to explain to you all of the differences between AC and DC, and what electrical phases are and how they can be shifted. Unfortunately, I don't think that my explanation of those things will be sufficient for you.
> 
> How are you coming with the wheel build? Any progress pictures?



>> How are you coming with the wheel build? Any progress pictures ? <<

I'm not going to open myself up to any more needless criticism.
as for Tesla and 90 degrees out of phase, here is a link that proves me right. Of course, I posted about tesla and Edison because I have trouble understanding why people have trouble when someone might know something.
it's like you said, Global Warming is not as important as your opinion about what vacuum is. I sent a letter to the editor of a local paper. Since I live in a coal producing state and gave a better alternative than Al Gore, they might like it.
And when you read this link, do know I am right because I find history interesting. 

https://www.pbs.org/tesla/ins/ins_polyphase.html

p.s., and Miller, only reason I have taken the time to learn how perpetual motion works is if I have a chance to get into a relationship with a woman that I like, I won't have to worry about somebody who disapproves.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Well, if you're looking for the proverbial nookie, building a perpetual motion device would definitely qualify you for some of that. The women may be a little on the nerdy side of life, but being a bit nerdy myself I can assure you that nerdy women are at least as much fun as any other. Last I heard, you got a new router. Any other tool purchases?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

sirlips said:


> Jim,
> When people offer a counter idea it doesn’t mean they think you are dumb. When people don’t agree with you, it’s not to challenge you personally. I have not seen one person attack you here. I cannot speak to the "PM's" you get from others, but i know what i have sent you in "PM's" and there is nothing attacking about them, yet you take these posts as personal attacks.
> 
> Others may not say it, but i will:
> You need to learn the difference between being personally attacked and people giving kind and thought out opinions that differs from yours. People, in my opinion, are generally good. I have seen nothing but that here. People also have very short patients when it comes to online discussions. If you push them, they will simply leave. I think it would be a help to have peoples ideals and opinions when working on a project as tough as “proving newton wrong”
> 
> 
> Ryan, miller and myself have told you that your work is interesting and we would like to see where it goes. We don’t have to agree with you, just as you don’t have to agree with us. The lesson to be learned is that you can grow from others opinions, instead of making that a conflict.
> 
> You may be able to control others with threats and "poor me" stories, but I don’t think that is going to get you anywhere you want to go.
> Infact:
> If you really are going to stop posting, then stop threatening it and simply do it. (not that i think you should and i hope you realize no one wants you to really leave, but darn man...you’re a grown, smart man...this isn’t the 3rd grade)
> 
> If you can’t take opinions from others, then stop posting yours on a public forum. (Again, i hope you don’t mind other opinions and you do keep posting yours, but again, giving out opinion and not being able to take it is a recipe for no one wanting to listen to you)
> 
> If you don't like it when people talk about personal things then don’t bring them up. My first post here was to advice that you keep this about woodworking and Bessler’s wheel. Yet you have talked about woman you did/did not mean to impress, cancer, the Navy, hearing loss, brain injury, poor Dr's, poor child hoods, the government taking away your rights, etc.... That may all be interesting, i think it is, but not here...unless your goal is to really just debate out your life’s issues in which case they should move this thread to "off topic" rather than a “design and plans” thread, if it even belongs on a site like this in the first place.
> Because my PM’s to you are about this have not gotten through to you, I will emphasize this point. All of the personal topics you have brought up are nothing to hide or keep to yourself. I think there are many great discussions to be had about them. However THIS is not the place. Not only because it’s not that “type of forum” but also I think it would help you to have a place to simply talk “shop” about Besslers wheel. To keep the discussion on task. This is not a personal attack, it’s not a reflection on any of your issues, it is simply my suggestion to help the “design and plans” continue, if you choose to without the drama that distracts from production.
> 
> 
> So, what’s going on with the design and plans and the progress you have made? Questions you have or theories you are working on to help construct it? I bet MANY of us would love to continue that conversation.


 Kind of why I said I will work off line, as long as I'm going to work alone.


----------



## Chad Holst

Mr L,
Fair enough. Good luck my friend. I wish you well. Maybe you can come back from time to time and fill us in on any progress you have made. I for one would look forward to that.

Miller..so your telling me i can get nookie if i build a device like this? And to think, i skipped more highschool than i attended..WHAT WAS I THINKING??


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Thank You*



sirlips said:


> Mr L,
> Fair enough. Good luck my friend. I wish you well. Maybe you can come back from time to time and fill us in on any progress you have made. I for one would look forward to that.
> 
> Miller..so your telling me i can get nookie if i build a device like this? And to think, i skipped more highschool than i attended..WHAT WAS I THINKING??



sirlips,
You and miller woodworking have pointed out a mistake that I have been making and that is going about things honestly.
After all, if I helped young gals work there way through college, I'd be called a philanthropist for my charitable efforts.
And yet, with Bessler's wheel and other things, only relationship i could get in would be one that is on the up and up.
I guess if I were a smarter person, I wouldn't be putting so much effort into something that draws a lot of ridicule. Besides, if a gal had kids, she might want to act like a father or something and she might want me to make some kind of commitment.
I'm going to have to think about it because I don't have a family so there'd be know one who really cares what I do either way.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Bessler's Drawings*

@All,
Mt's 24 & 60 are basically the same drawing. Mt 60 has a second area that Mt 24 doesn't have. I think the screw threads are a reference to Archimedes' screw pump.
The quote from Mt 24 describes Mt 60;
"No. 24: This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poles with screw threads. The poles fall inward when the levers close. 
There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention." 
- Johann Bessler 

A link to an "invention" someone patented. 
What Mr. Kusmer got wrong was he didn't do the math. With how much water his bellows could hold, it would take to long for them to be able to be pumped out. But his failed invention is something that might help everyone to understand the mechanics that I am working on.
I'll probably be starting on assembling the basic pieces this weekend for the outer rims. I need to have them finished so I can mount the frame for what will become the bellows. Not sure how long that will take.
www.google.com/patents/us3412482


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Triangles*

@All,
I thought I'd show how I believe it will work. On the side where the bellows is closed can be thought of as 1x. The other bellow being opened would have 3x of water.
This is if the closed bellow holds 8 oz.'s of water and it's connection to the hub is 3/4" while it opens to 1 1/2" .
If the water in the 2 bellows weighs 2 lbs., then that is all the force that is required to move/pump the water upward. And if the top bellow opens 1.5 inches, then it would have 3 times as much as the closed bellow.
What is often over looked is that it only takes 2 lbs. of force to suspend 2 lbs. of water. And if a weight weighing 2 1/2 lbs. operated a hoist/pulley set up to open the top bellows, then if the bellow opened 1.5 in., it would require 3 in. lbs. of force.
This means the 2 1/2 lb. weight would need to drop only 1 1/2 inches to have 3 3/4 in. lbs. of force. This should allow for 1 lb. of water to move 18 to 20 inches. I think it's a heck of a neat trick that Bessler figured out.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Why Bessler's Wheel ?*

@All,
I thought I'd let you know why I am working on Bessler's wheel.
When one of my brother's assaulted me with a weapon, I called the police and then they arrested me. I have a hearing loss and he doesn't. He assaulted me because he did not like my hearing loss.
A few years later, I was walking 8 miles to work. My coworkers could not understand why I was glad to be allowed to walk to work. It's simple, my family was letting me keep my job and was causing me only minor problems.
I decided to buy a mountain to ride to work (I walked to church) and was ran over by a van going about 50 mph. I came very close to dying but was very happy about everything.
And now today, I am 53 and have not been allowed to have a family because of how people view my hearing loss. The police have told me they think I am an undesirable element on more than one occasion including 2 days after I was diagnosed with cancer.
I was going for a walk and they stopped me and had made it known to me that they had called back up because they considered me a dangerous person.
Even at work I am usually on thin ice. And all because I served in the Navy. I think something is wrong with that last statement.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

There is something wrong with that last statement. Your problems aren't the result of serving in the navy. Based on the incessant PMs that you've been sending me, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing your problems.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> There is something wrong with that last statement. Your problems aren't the result of serving in the navy. Based on the incessant PMs that you've been sending me, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing your problems.


 Like when you say what I am doing is about proving you wrong ? I guess it's unfortunate that you support discrimination against disabled veteran's. But then, i guess you had better things to do than serve your country.

to add; Miller, I should've been allowed to live my own life but wasn't. And just like when I had cancer, why did it go so poorly for me ? My doctors told me that I was a drug addict. How could a doctor confuse colorectal cancer with drug usage when my mother had died 4 years earlier from it ? They missed it but I didn't.
And with my complications, they ignored my complaints after surgery. Why ? Probably because of the way I talk because of my hearing loss.
What you would not like is that I spent my time learning and have figured out how to do things like Bessler's wheel as well as become knowledgeable in physics. I've had plenty of time to sit home and study.
And yet you would begrudge me because I am willing to put out the effort necessary to try and undo some of the damage done to my life because of the constant discrimination I have had to deal with ? What I've found a lot of people don't like, seeing someone make good.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

I never said that what you are doing is about proving me wrong. I also do not support discrimination against anyone. Yes, disabled veterans are included in the group of "anyone".


----------



## Chad Holst

Miller Woodworks said:


> There is something wrong with that last statement. Your problems aren't the result of serving in the navy. Based on the incessant PMs that you've been sending me, I'm pretty sure I know what is causing your problems.


 
+1 I hear yah Miller.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Wtf ?*



sirlips said:


> +1 I hear yah Miller.



sirlips,
Aren't you the person who posted that they knew me ? And then you told me I don't know you ? I find that confusing.
Sad to say, your friend doesn't know his laws of thermodynamics because they do not apply to something powered by gravity. Just because he does not understand it, it doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.
After all, we take advantage of every directional force except for gravity. This tells me that those who say it is not possible are not up to the challenge and all that is left is what you and your friend are posting, Personal attacks.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

As I've explained to you, the laws of thermodynamics are descriptive, not proscriptive. They apply to everything in existence regardless of what the item's energy source is.

We do take advantage of gravity. Hydroelectric generators function based on the effects of gravity. There's one easily recognizable example of how humans take advantage of gravity. Hot air balloons function based on gravity as well. When you cook, the food stays in the pot because of gravity. Need more examples of how humans take advantage of gravity?

As I've explained to you, people pointing out that what you're trying to do is impossible, is not a personal attack. Nobody has attacked you personally anywhere on this thread.


----------



## Chad Holst

> Aren't you the person who posted that they knew me ? And then you told me I don't know you ? I find that confusing.


Mr. L. Yes i am the one that said i dont know you...As in i have never met you before, talked to you before, messaged you before. (until this forum). I never said "i know you" i said that after reading this thread i went and looked at other forums that you posted on. (one other one mainly) and that based on what i read there, the issues i saw you were having with others, etc...that based on what i "knew of you" i didnt think we had any fear of you leaving. 

Now, based on the constant PM's to me (and based on millers comment above, constant Pm's to miller also) i think it was correct in my original assesment. 

There is a context to the "i know you" and the "i dont know who you are" that you seem to be having trouble understanding.

In one PM you accuse me of being some girl you supposedly know and had issues with, the next you accuse me of being someone else...then the next you are apologizing for me thinking your stupid. NONE of which is acurate.


Back on topic:


> After all, we take advantage of every directional force except for gravity.


 We take advantage of gravity all the time. it is probably the most utilized force in our universe. As i SIT here i am using gravity. I just took a drink of my water, that was held in the glass thanks to utilizing gravity.

As far as using it as an force to give us energy. I dont think we have many energy options that would work if it wasnt in conjunction with gravity.

As Mr Miller has also said, there is no need to be defensive. no one is attacking you, or your work. We are asking questions and simply discussing it. If anything we are the ones being attacked...Which i cant speak for Mr. Miller, but its water off a ducks back in my opinion. This is about someone trying to do something amazing....If it worked out. I will be the last one to shun "big thinking".

But all this talk about gravity leaves me confused. To clarify, are you think besslers wheel would work because it somehow harnesses the gravity and creates positive energy from that? If so, i would REALLY question that. I would be more inclined to say, based on what i see so far and have read, that it would be more along the lines of centrifugal force be utilized to try and create positive energy...But then again, Centrifugal force is just gravity in a different way.


Blah. lets see where you are at.


----------



## frankp

sirlips, the problem with this particular "big thinking" is it has been debunked for over a century and simply doesn't work the way laymen think it will. It's always neglecting too many factors that actually have an impact on the system when it considers thermodynamics, gravity, conservation of energy (of all types) and several other issues.

I commend anyone trying to learn more and do something big but this particular "big" simply doesn't work. You might break even (though it's unlikely) but you're certainly not going to get "free energy" from it.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

**



frankp said:


> sirlips, the problem with this particular "big thinking" is it has been debunked for over a century and simply doesn't work the way laymen think it will. It's always neglecting too many factors that actually have an impact on the system when it considers thermodynamics, gravity, conservation of energy (of all types) and several other issues.
> 
> I commend anyone trying to learn more and do something big but this particular "big" simply doesn't work. You might break even (though it's unlikely) but you're certainly not going to get "free energy" from it.



Frank,
I am fairly certain Bessler was successful. From what I know, nobody has debunked any of his witnesses like Leibniz Gottfried. This weekend I am going to start on the build that I'll be using oak. Myself, I think what was bigger thinking than this is the flying boat my dad helped Boeing to build. Could yu imagine a boat flying without propellers ?
It could be that I have seen much innovation having to do with engineering. 
I'll probably not post until it's finished. Then when it is shown to work, the comments might be more like what was it Bessler figured out. Still, I am not quite sure why people have trouble understanding the basic concept, it's used every day. Same principle as a well pump that can draw water from a depth of over 100 ft. using little force.
What I am aware of is that it is an unconventional way of applying force for purposes of doing work. Not pumping wells but in moving something.
One thing I have not been successful with is trying to keep this as a social hobby. 

Jim


----------



## frankp

J Lindgaard, what I said is that the work and energy aren't free. It will always need some energy (other than just gravity or a one-time startup) to get any work done. Sure, it will do some work, it just won't be "free" in the sense of giving more out than is put into the system.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

*Speaking from a mostly technical standpoint which may be contrary to lay terminology that you're using*
I've noticed that you think very very highly of vacuum force and you've just mentioned the principle that wells use to draw water from a depth of over 100 feet with "little force". You do know that water wells don't use what a layman would call a vacuum force to suck the water up from underground right? In fact, if you were to try and raise water in that manner, you'd only make it about 34 feet before the water would simply stop moving. After that, you'd have a full vacuum above the water and you could suck as hard as you want and not move the water any more. A vacuum alone cannot lift water 100 feet. Water wells work because they use higher pressures to push the water up to the surface as opposed to using a vacuum to suck the water up.
Here is a youtube video for you.


----------



## Chad Holst

MR. L

You said you are fairly certain that Bessler was successful in his attempt. Why then is it still commonly thought that no one has ever been able to achieve this, let alone Bestler? Where is this evidence that leads you to contradict all known science as we understand it today? 

I'm not saying your wrong I'm just asking why you believe it.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

**



sirlips said:


> MR. L
> 
> You said you are fairly certain that Bessler was successful in his attempt. Why then is it still commonly thought that no one has ever been able to achieve this, let alone Bestler? Where is this evidence that leads you to contradict all known science as we understand it today?
> 
> I'm not saying your wrong I'm just asking why you believe it.



sirlips, miller woodworks & FrankP,

From Wikipedia; There is a scientific consensus that perpetual motion is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

A consensus does not make something a law of science such as Newton's Law of Gravity.

Miller, what has been over looked is that if no air is in a stand pipe, then it could be said to have an absolute vacuum. This would be why when a piston is lowered into a pressure head, the pressure head does not lower in elevation as a result.
This action or actually what is a lack of action allows the piston to be filled with water at a lower elevation. This action/inaction cycle is what allows water to be pumped.

From sirlips >> Where is this evidence that leads you to contradict all known science as we understand it today? <<

It's in a story the Oregonian newspaper did years ago. It was of an industrial repair shop that my father was manager of. They showed a picture of my brother working on a grain pump.
I talked to my brother Harold about it and he told me the pump was actually 8 single stage pumps. And with my having gone to school for propulsion Engineering and having worked with pumps realized that the discharge of one pump was the intake of the next one.
And when I looked at a drawing like Mt 24 which is one of my favorites and knowing that Bessler did use 8 weights did consider that the design was well suited for 8 pumps working in a sequential order.

@FrankP,
Just as the Wright Bros. built their airplane because they wanted to see it fly, I am building Bessler's wheel to see a part of history come to life.

Jim

p.s., sirlips, I have spent considerable time on trying 8 sequential pumps. I'll need to become a better wood worker before attempting such a design again. I have let the gal I know that for the build I would like to do that she helped to inspire might take someone who has a lot of experience working with wood. You know, it might take someone who actually knows what they're doing with wood.
The opposing bellows is much simpler because it is a reciprocating action such as a piston on a connecting rod and crankshaft.


----------



## mobilepaul

Guys, what is really going on here? I respect all of you guys, Frank, Miller, Sirlips but aren't you just goading him at this point? I don't have a dog in this fight but...

Why don't you guys just let him spend his time making this contraption and the proof will be in the pudding. He began this thread over a year ago and noting has been built, that I know of, so far. It appears he is now obsessed with answering or countering you guys back and forth instead of building. Or, maybe that is what he enjoys more, I cannot say. I, for one, am interested in seeing what becomes of this build or if it will ever get built. So many people before him have tried, we'll know soon enough if he has something relevant or not.

Just sayin'

Paul


----------



## Chad Holst

Paul, I absolutly agree with you.

To be honest i am trying to goad him..but not in a negative way, I'm trying to goad him into talking about the project and getting back into that, rather than the personal stuff. The last few posts have been about the project again, what he thinks and how he defends that idea. PERFECT! I really hope he continues with it. 

Alot of it is about the curiousity i have for this project, but part of it is to try and help someone. After the PM's and type of comments i have gotten from MR L, i think some assistance was needed. My only goal here is to help out someone. 

So, lets leave it at that and keep this about the project. The more we talk about feeling, personal issues and other dramas the more distractd from the project he gets.


MR.L
I dont quite follow the line of thinking here:


> And with my having gone to school for propulsion Engineering and having worked with pumps realized that the discharge of one pump was the intake of the next one.


 I appologize for my ignorance, can you explain what that means to the project? At first i was thinking that your story of the 8 pumps was to imply that at any given time 7 pumps made the final 8th pump run and then the next seven again powered the 8th..in series. I understand that, but these pumps were powered by some outside force...so i dont see what this really has to do with the "free energy" idea. Again, im am sure im not seeing the point here, and i appologize for asking you to dumb it down for me, but can you explain?


----------



## Miller Woodworks

mobilepaul said:


> Guys, what is really going on here? I respect all of you guys, Frank, Miller, Sirlips but aren't you just goading him at this point? I don't have a dog in this fight but...
> 
> Why don't you guys just let him spend his time making this contraption and the proof will be in the pudding. He began this thread over a year ago and noting has been built, that I know of, so far. It appears he is now obsessed with answering or countering you guys back and forth instead of building. Or, maybe that is what he enjoys more, I cannot say. I, for one, am interested in seeing what becomes of this build or if it will ever get built. So many people before him have tried, we'll know soon enough if he has something relevant or not.
> 
> Just sayin'
> 
> Paul


It's true. I've tried to get him back on to building his wheel. I've tried to just ignore him and let him do his thing. Unfortunately, he won't do it. He likes to send me PMs about his personal life which make no sense at all. Like I've told him several times, I don't care about his personal life. I'm only interested in his build. He doesn't seem to want to build and only wants to make wild assertions that physics is all wrong and spout what doesn't even qualify as pseudo-science as if it were fact. That's fine with me. I'll be happy to be the guy who shows him why he's wrong. If in the process he builds this perpetual motion device and proves us naysayers wrong, a hearty congratulations will be in order. Like I told him, I'll be on the next flight to his house to invest in his new company. Really, I'm 100% behind him figuring out how to make a perpetual motion device. Nothing makes a scientifically oriented mind happier than being proven wrong.



J_Lindgaard said:


> sirlips, miller woodworks & FrankP,
> 
> From Wikipedia; There is a scientific consensus that perpetual motion is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
> 
> A consensus does not make something a law of science such as Newton's Law of Gravity.


You have to be careful with wikipedia. It's not a source of infallible information. There are in fact many things in wikipedia that are wrong. Wikipedia is a website that you can change simply by citing some source that agrees with you. Well, what happens if that source is wrong? You see, wikipedia is just a big collection of other things on the internet subject to the same flaws that everything else on the internet is subject to. Have you ever seen incorrect information on the internet?



J_Lindgaard said:


> Miller, what has been over looked is that if no air is in a stand pipe, then it could be said to have an absolute vacuum. This would be why when a piston is lowered into a pressure head, the pressure head does not lower in elevation as a result.
> This action or actually what is a lack of action allows the piston to be filled with water at a lower elevation. This action/inaction cycle is what allows water to be pumped.


It's true that a stand pipe with no air (or water vapor, or any other gases for that matter) can be said to have an absolute pressure of 0. (That's your vacuum BTW) That doesn't explain why a piston and pressure head might work in the manner you describe. I'm not sure what it is that you're even referring to as a piston and pressure head. Why would a piston fill with water, and why do you think water filled pistons are what make water wells work? I'm not overlooking anything.  I just pointed out a video to you about how water wells work. Water is pumped up from the bottom, not pulled up from the top.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

mobilepaul said:


> Guys, what is really going on here? I respect all of you guys, Frank, Miller, Sirlips but aren't you just goading him at this point? I don't have a dog in this fight but...
> 
> Why don't you guys just let him spend his time making this contraption and the proof will be in the pudding. He began this thread over a year ago and noting has been built, that I know of, so far. It appears he is now obsessed with answering or countering you guys back and forth instead of building. Or, maybe that is what he enjoys more, I cannot say. I, for one, am interested in seeing what becomes of this build or if it will ever get built. So many people before him have tried, we'll know soon enough if he has something relevant or not.
> 
> Just sayin'
> 
> Paul


I'm not sure how you consider my starting this thread on Dec. 23rd as being over a year. And it probably doesn't matter to you that I have had serious medical and financial issues to work through.
And it really doesn't matter to you that I have been buying tools to help me build it. I thinks it is like I told sirlips, this is just entertainment for you guys. After all, when basic engineering is not understood, not really sure why that should be my problem.

p.s., I did mention that I have to wait until I get paid this Friday to buy some more tooling that I'll be needing. I've only missed about 2 out of the last 5 years of work because my doctors were negligent for treating my cancer. But that is my problem just as it has made it difficult for me to work at my job which is more important to me than Bessler's wheel. Guess you guys have had an easy go of things so your boredom has become my problem. Nah, it's not my problem, sorry.


----------



## mobilepaul

J_Lindgaard said:


> I'm not sure how you consider my starting this thread on Dec. 23rd as being over a year. And it probably doesn't matter to you that I have had serious medical and financial issues to work through.
> And it really doesn't matter to you that I have been buying tools to help me build it. I thinks it is like I told sirlips, this is just entertainment for you guys. After all, when basic engineering is not understood, not really sure why that should be my problem.


Sorry, I did misread the date, I thought it said 2012, not 2013. I stand corrected about that part and apologize. 

As to the personal side of this, which seems to be where you have been taking this thread more and more, I can say that it does matter to me that you have medical and financial issues. I empathize with you on both scores. I cannot help you on either of those problems but I do care. On to your next issue, entertainment value, this really isn't entertainment to me. In the beginning, it was mildly interesting to see talk of another build of some days-gone-by tech that might get a fresh breath of air at the hands of a competent technician. Your talk of the wheel made me go and look up the history of the man and his wheel. That part helped further my knowledge a bit. Unfortunately though, this thread has just become sad and tedious. Sad because you purport to have your own issues with your health (sad enough of itself that you have medical problems) as well as a fair amount of anger towards the ones that allegedly wronged you, both in the community-at-large and medically speaking. Additionally sad because you have talked more and more about those issues, of late, than talking about the wheel. Tedious because you let the writing of others and people that do not always agree with your hypothesis to turn you from the work and the science and let them become a distraction. I can appreciate your frustrations. I sense that the anger is beginning to seep into your thread a bit. You are having to defend yourself, regularly, I grant you that. You are like Sherlock, as I once mentioned to someone on here recently, researching to find the truth but, all the while, confounded, deflated and increasingly less focused than on days past by your personal Moriarty(s). Make the thread about the work and the science, not personal. When someone attacks the science, counter with science and not personal things about you or their lack of understanding about your personal tragedies. I think everyone feels for you but none of that is about the work or the science.

Although I, personally, see no reason for your quest with this wheel especially when you could probably use the tools you have purchased and your skills to make items that could help your financial woes, I have been a supporter, silently at the sidelines. I don't feel like I should be your judge or on the jury as to why your work on this wheel is important or not important. The fact that you want to spend your time working on it is justification enough, to you. I just wanted to watch your progress. I only said anything here, prior to this lengthy post, because I am noticing a pattern of goading by others, for whatever reason and however good intentioned or not, and a pattern is forming that is counterproductive for you. That is why I am having any narrative in this show, whatsoever. I feel like you have become a little distracted, already angry and more frustrated by the writings of other people within this thread. That is unfortunate for you and your continued work. I hope that they will stop, wait and watch and you will refocus and be productive on your personal holy grail. I would hate to see you follow in the personality footsteps of the man whom you hold in such high regard, Bessler. By that I mean this:
"The internal design of the machine was always closely guarded by its inventor. Plagued by paranoia and a nasty temper, and with no patent laws to protect him, Bessler never arranged payment terms for the wheel.  A bitter man, he took his secret to the grave and drifted into obscurity."

I want you to continue to build this, if the wheel means that much to you. Don't worry about what others are saying about it or you. They don't know you, supposedly. Get this thing done and let the ends be the justification for the means...

Everyone on here has an opinion. Some better than others. Some with their own agendas in what they say and do. You posted on here, of your own accord, to be heard and seen by others that you have no affiliation to in life. You, therefore, have to understand that in this "online" society that we immerse ourselves into with our own personal commentaries, that there will be detractors and there will be desenters and there will be naysayers. Online communities are anonymous and, for the most part, have no consequence when it comes to what we say to one another in a thread. That is just the lay of the land, you must develop a thicker skin to this. History is full of distractions caused by others that affect another person's quest. The strong survive! Just stay true to yours and don't worry about what else is said...

Just my 2 cents and not meant to hurt you in any way,

Paul


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Paul,
I think this would best be built offline. After all, when I try to explain things, it's not being considered as that.
I have to take responsibility for that.

p.s., it shouldn't be a problem if I have to go slowly with this but it does seem to be a part of it. You know, my not being able to afford to work at a pace that others like. Again, my problem.

And I just remembered something, I almost lost 3 fingers because I was working through severe pain. I was off work Nov., Dec. and Jan. because of that. Dec. 23rd is in there somewhere.
And as you, sirlips & Miller Woodworks have mentioned, any explanation I give is either being dramatic or making excuses or defending engineering.
After all, Miller Woodworks referred to an electric well pump and not a manual well pump. Yet he said I was wrong. I like that. I am wrong because he is referencing an entirely different configuration.
Manual well pumps always have the lever for pumping above ground. Other wise how could a person operate the pump ? Simple thing but something missed.
And since I am still dealing with medical issues, I will apologize for considering my own safety. Like you and your friends have said, I am in the wrong place. I lack the capital you have available.


----------



## Chad Holst

> I think this would best be built offline.


 As i have stated before, i hope you do not decide to do that, but if you do, i wish you and your work well.



> it shouldn't be a problem if I have to go slowly with this but it does seem to be a part of it. You know, my not being able to afford to work at a pace that others like. Again, my problem.


 I think this is very observant of you. I think you are correct that we tend to like seeing progress and people on sites like this dont always understand that real life, financial issues and other other sorts of things get in the way. You should work on this exactly as fast as YOU decide is the right speed and if others dont like it, they can bugger off, as our friends down under would say.

MobilePaul, That was a very kind and well wrote comment. 


Mr L, if you have the time and are inclined to, i really am still curious about the question i posted earlier. Can you explain a bit more about the pumps in your brothers picture and how that helped with the epiphany about the bessler wheel? How do these two ideas link together?

Also, some food for thought Mr L., I know many, and i am one of them, think this isn't very probable to result in some free energy source that saves human kind from its deathly addiction to fossil fuels. Thats why its so great, because the "what if" is just to much to ignore. Someone has to be brave and fight the current understand of things if we are ever going to change our ways, invent new amazing things and have our next big break-through. Besides this, there is the personal benifit to you that you know you atleast tried, and thats no small thing. However I want to point out one other benifit to all this, and it has already worked...you have gotten people like me, and several other here, to learn more about things we probably would have never looked into. Like paul, i also ran off when i first started reading this thread and did some research on bessler and others like him, which lead me to other sites, and other new ideas... This is one of the great benifactors of doing something fringe like this..its build curiousity and makes the mind look at things in a new light. So thank you for that. Regardless of your frustrations, you should be proud that you are already accomplishing some creativity in others with this build.

Thank you. As always, i wish you well.

-Chad


----------



## J_Lindgaard

This is a link to a gal who died just after graduating from college. One of the thngs she wrote about is why some people are jealous.
In overunity.com or .de and besslerwheel.com is a guy named Alan Bauldree who says that he should have what I have. That is except for the hearing loss, except for cancer and except for it's complications. he has had much support over the years. https://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-liv...egan-posthumous-book-of-essays-184224610.html
That is where I am glad of the one gal I know. She does know what has kept me motivated on this is wanting to show her what I think is an interesting part of history. And for how bad my situation has been, you wouldn't believe me.

@sirlips,
There is a difference between pumps. With feed pumps, you can have an 8 stage feed pump using 1 housing. With grain pumps, you know, for pumping grain out of the hold of a ship, they use 8 single stage pumps. 
The difference is that the feed pump develops high pressure, easily over 1,000 psi. with grain pumps, the grains velocity is what's important to move it from the hold. This requires using vacuum to accelerate it.
With Bessler's wheel, moving water around the inside of the rim would require a vacuum to keep the water moving just as the grain does.
Originally when I made the realization that Bessler used water (the realization itself took about 6 months) I tried using compression and found out the amount of force necessary to pump water escalates rather quickly.
It did take me some time to realize that vacuum is extremely efficient.
I have posted an estimate that 30 lbs. of water that is 6 feet from the axle might produce about .7 h.p.
.7 h.p. by today's standards is about how much energy a hair dryer or microwave oven uses.


----------



## TimPa

don't know if you are familair with the principal behind a gas spring operation, but possibly that concept could be applied to the water movement.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

mobilepaul said:


> Sorry, I did misread the date, I thought it said 2012, not 2013. I stand corrected about that part and apologize.
> 
> As to the personal side of this, which seems to be where you have been taking this thread more and more, I can say that it does matter to me that you have medical and financial issues. I empathize with you on both scores. I cannot help you on either of those problems but I do care. On to your next issue, entertainment value, this really isn't entertainment to me. In the beginning, it was mildly interesting to see talk of another build of some days-gone-by tech that might get a fresh breath of air at the hands of a competent technician. Your talk of the wheel made me go and look up the history of the man and his wheel. That part helped further my knowledge a bit. Unfortunately though, this thread has just become sad and tedious. Sad because you purport to have your own issues with your health (sad enough of itself that you have medical problems) as well as a fair amount of anger towards the ones that allegedly wronged you, both in the community-at-large and medically speaking. Additionally sad because you have talked more and more about those issues, of late, than talking about the wheel. Tedious because you let the writing of others and people that do not always agree with your hypothesis to turn you from the work and the science and let them become a distraction. I can appreciate your frustrations. I sense that the anger is beginning to seep into your thread a bit. You are having to defend yourself, regularly, I grant you that. You are like Sherlock, as I once mentioned to someone on here recently, researching to find the truth but, all the while, confounded, deflated and increasingly less focused than on days past by your personal Moriarty(s). Make the thread about the work and the science, not personal. When someone attacks the science, counter with science and not personal things about you or their lack of understanding about your personal tragedies. I think everyone feels for you but none of that is about the work or the science.
> 
> Although I, personally, see no reason for your quest with this wheel especially when you could probably use the tools you have purchased and your skills to make items that could help your financial woes, I have been a supporter, silently at the sidelines. I don't feel like I should be your judge or on the jury as to why your work on this wheel is important or not important. The fact that you want to spend your time working on it is justification enough, to you. I just wanted to watch your progress. I only said anything here, prior to this lengthy post, because I am noticing a pattern of goading by others, for whatever reason and however good intentioned or not, and a pattern is forming that is counterproductive for you. That is why I am having any narrative in this show, whatsoever. I feel like you have become a little distracted, already angry and more frustrated by the writings of other people within this thread. That is unfortunate for you and your continued work. I hope that they will stop, wait and watch and you will refocus and be productive on your personal holy grail. I would hate to see you follow in the personality footsteps of the man whom you hold in such high regard, Bessler. By that I mean this:
> "The internal design of the machine was always closely guarded by its inventor. Plagued by paranoia and a nasty temper, and with no patent laws to protect him, Bessler never arranged payment terms for the wheel.  A bitter man, he took his secret to the grave and drifted into obscurity."
> 
> I want you to continue to build this, if the wheel means that much to you. Don't worry about what others are saying about it or you. They don't know you, supposedly. Get this thing done and let the ends be the justification for the means...
> 
> Everyone on here has an opinion. Some better than others. Some with their own agendas in what they say and do. You posted on here, of your own accord, to be heard and seen by others that you have no affiliation to in life. You, therefore, have to understand that in this "online" society that we immerse ourselves into with our own personal commentaries, that there will be detractors and there will be desenters and there will be naysayers. Online communities are anonymous and, for the most part, have no consequence when it comes to what we say to one another in a thread. That is just the lay of the land, you must develop a thicker skin to this. History is full of distractions caused by others that affect another person's quest. The strong survive! Just stay true to yours and don't worry about what else is said...
> 
> Just my 2 cents and not meant to hurt you in any way,
> 
> Paul


>> Although I, personally, see no reason for your quest with this wheel especially when you could probably use the tools you have purchased and your skills to make items that could help your financial woes, <<

The last time I tried meeting a woman, my coworkers, supervisor, asst. mangr and family got me fired. I did not have their approval.
Also being arrested for being assaulted by my brother because police think a hearing loss makes a person a big and dumb idiot.
After all, have no family because people with normal hearing are more than willing to discriminate. I did have a life before I became half deaf in one ear.
Haven't had one since. 
BTW, my doctors diagnosed my cancer as a drug addiction and lectured me on why I shouldn't use drugs. They only found my cancer because they wanted to shut me up. When they found it, they had nothing to say.
It is well past my being tired of it.
But as the V.A. and Federal G'vmnt have told me, as long as I can find a lower paying job, I am not being discriminated against.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

What you've said doesn't address why you're using your woodworking skills to make a perpetual motion device instead of making items to sell and alleviate your financial troubles. We are legitimately trying to help you better yourself and you're ignoring it because everyone else is against you and keeping you down. 

You're blaming your problems on everyone else. Take responsibility for your life. Despite what you seem to think, the world isn't out to get you. Nobody likes a narcissist. That could be why you don't get a warm reception from people.


----------



## mobilepaul

J_Lindgaard said:


> >> Although I, personally, see no reason for your quest with this wheel especially when you could probably use the tools you have purchased and your skills to make items that could help your financial woes, <<
> 
> The last time I tried meeting a woman, my coworkers, supervisor, asst. mangr and family got me fired. I did not have their approval.
> Also being arrested for being assaulted by my brother because police think a hearing loss makes a person a big and dumb idiot.
> After all, have no family because people with normal hearing are more than willing to discriminate. I did have a life before I became half deaf in one ear.
> Haven't had one since.
> BTW, my doctors diagnosed my cancer as a drug addiction and lectured me on why I shouldn't use drugs. They only found my cancer because they wanted to shut me up. When they found it, they had nothing to say.
> It is well past my being tired of it.
> But as the V.A. and Federal G'vmnt have told me, as long as I can find a lower paying job, I am not being discriminated against.


Ummm, I don't know what "tool" that could make you money you think I am talking about here but I don't remember me talking about a woman of any kind. If this thread is your idea of "woman bait" I am not sure what to say here. And, once again, you bring this thread all back to personal stuff... I rest my case... Get back to the science and get on with the science. There are people working on this same contraption out there that appear to be further along than you. Especially with you wasting time in this thread outlining your life's history and attacking people that are on your side, even if you can't see the forest for the trees in that respect.

This thread has rapidly devolved into a platform for you to talk about your woes, ailments and personal attacks. Sad as your alleged infirmity is, this is a woodworking forum and not a Dear Abbey forum or webMD website. Being a medical professional in a past life, I feel saddened that, perhaps, you have had poor care and maybe even a victim of malpractice. That talk is for a platform other than woodworkingtalk.com

I was "for" you, and your attempt to make this build a reality, all along but now, you are merely sinking into a pit of how you are a victim and everyone is out to get you. While there may be some souls actually out to get you, I know, for a fact, that 'everyone' is NOT. Additionally, not everyone that disagrees with you about a point in your scientific hypothesis is out to get you. I can assure you that I, personally, am, in no way, out to get you nor do I want to see you ill, harmed, arrested, maimed, procto-scoped, pumped, siphoned, wheeled or any other such nonsense. I wish that you were completely well and of sound mind. That is out of my and everyone on this forum's control. Unless, there is......a doctor in the audience? Probably not but there is probably someone that plays a doctor on a thread somewhere...:yes:

I came into this thread for the build/science you originally outlined and I have tried to follow it for that reason alone. I spoke up, in the first place, because I felt you were feeling ganged up on and, perhaps, you were. You still didn't see me as on your side. So be it! Now, I am weary of your personal dramas and the drama that you are experiencing, real and imagined, from others' hands. I have tried, in all that I have written to you, to give you the benefit of the doubt and be straight up with you and everyone in this thread. You seem to want to cherry-pick what you garner from what I and others write and then your anger-fueled bias will not let you remain objective about the possibility of alternatives ideas on this project nor about anyone else's point of view. I, personally, have not even weighed into the "science" aspect of your thread. There again, giving you the benefit of the doubt and allowing you whatever time needed to pull it all together for us to see. I mean, I wasn't going to use my time to build it, have no interest in building this, but I am willing to wait and watch ever remaining hopeful for you to git'erdun. 

I wish you luck but I will no longer follow this thread unless it snaps back to science, magically, and not trials and tribulations.

Peace Out!

Paul


----------



## J_Lindgaard

TimPa said:


> don't know if you are familair with the principal behind a gas spring operation, but possibly that concept could be applied to the water movement.


 That is interesting. It might work for a more modern version.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

p.s.


Miller Woodworks said:


> What you've said doesn't address why you're using your woodworking skills to make a perpetual motion device instead of making items to sell and alleviate your financial troubles. We are legitimately trying to help you better yourself and you're ignoring it because everyone else is against you and keeping you down.
> 
> You're blaming your problems on everyone else. Take responsibility for your life. Despite what you seem to think, the world isn't out to get you. Nobody likes a narcissist. That could be why you don't get a warm reception from people.


 You really don't get it, do you ?

Bye

Not that it is any of your business but I used to work for the Boeing Airplane Co. I took a lot of off hour training. I had enough friends but there was always an invisible barrier.
And like I explained to one woman who works for my employer, Amazon.com, my family prevented me from making my recall from layoff because they did not think that I deserved to have such a good job.
Yet while I was laid off by Boeing, I spent about 7K on 2 brothers and watched one of my brothers 3 kids for almost a year when his wife left him. His having been molested as a kid caused him problems and over the years I had tried helping him to relax and enjoy life for a change. He couldn't get it.
Unfortunately for many people who are molested as kids, it does have a huge effect on their adult life.
And with Bessler's wheel, I might meet a woman. Having a good job didn't do it, been there, done that.


----------



## Chad Holst

Again Paul...that was a very kind post to write. your a pretty darn good person in my opinion. if you are ever in Mn plz message me and i'll take yah for a steak and beer.

To add some perspective, i was at the point you are now, before i started posting on this thread. As i said before i went out and did some searching on besslers wheel. One of those threads happened to be a place Mr. L also has a thread going. And the same type of thing happened their. That is why i suggested from the start that this stay about woodworking. I have recieved MANY Pm's since from Mr. L and i continue to try and be positive and wish him well..sterring everything back to science, woodworking or theories on bessler. I fear that is a horse that wont be broke.

I have asked Mr. L to stop PM'ing me. Hopefully this will keep things in perspective and out in the open.


Mr. L Thanks for your reply. That leads me to ask, what the pumps have to do with besslers wheel. I understand the pumps can pump water, and the wheel may use water...but i dont see the link. I dont mean this to sound sarcastic, because i do not mean it that way...but lots of things use pumps and lots of things use water...but that has nothing to do with why i use maple to build a work bench. If asked i cant reply "because pumps can pump water and maple trees use water to grow" its a nonsensical reply. What am i missing here?




EDITED AFTER READING THE POST THAT CAME BEFORE ME. WHILE I WAS TYPING THIS ONE:

Paranoid schizophrenia?
Obsesive compulsive?

Something is going on here. But thats it for me fella's. I hope you have more patience than i do. Its too exhausting.

As always, I wish you well Mr. L.


-Chad


----------



## J_Lindgaard

sirlips said:


> Again Paul...that was a very kind post to write. your a pretty darn good person in my opinion. if you are ever in Mn plz message me and i'll take yah for a steak and beer.
> 
> To add some perspective, i was at the point you are now, before i started posting on this thread. As i said before i went out and did some searching on besslers wheel. One of those threads happened to be a place Mr. L also has a thread going. And the same type of thing happened their. That is why i suggested from the start that this stay about woodworking. I have recieved MANY Pm's since from Mr. L and i continue to try and be positive and wish him well..sterring everything back to science, woodworking or theories on bessler. I fear that is a horse that wont be broke.
> 
> I have asked Mr. L to stop PM'ing me. Hopefully this will keep things in perspective and out in the open.
> 
> 
> Mr. L Thanks for your reply. That leads me to ask, what the pumps have to do with besslers wheel. I understand the pumps can pump water, and the wheel may use water...but i dont see the link. I dont mean this to sound sarcastic, because i do not mean it that way...but lots of things use pumps and lots of things use water...but that has nothing to do with why i use maple to build a work bench. If asked i cant reply "because pumps can pump water and maple trees use water to grow" its a nonsensical reply. What am i missing here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDITED AFTER READING THE POST THAT CAME BEFORE ME. WHILE I WAS TYPING THIS ONE:
> 
> Paranoid schizophrenia?
> Obsesive compulsive?
> 
> Something is going on here. But thats it for me fella's. I hope you have more patience than i do. Its too exhausting.
> 
> As always, I wish you well Mr. L.
> 
> 
> -Chad


 
sirlips,
I am going to ask the moderator to lock this thread. it seems if I don't dance to your guys' tune, you'll just keep flaming me.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

Then before the thread gets locked, I wish you the best of luck with your build. If you get it working, let us know.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> Then before the thread gets locked, I wish you the best of luck with your build. If you get it working, let us know.


 Unfortunately, things have been made personal. The only thing a working build would demonstrate is that I knew what I was doing and that wouldn't matter.
I am disappointed with sirlips. Still, I think I deserve to have a life even if I am a narcissist. Of course, I think I would've had a family by now if I were in love with myself.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*I'm Sorry*

@All,
I would like to apologize for having been productive while suffering through over 5 1/2 years of medical and financial hardship.
Of course, I could've sat home by myself crying about how I was getting screwed by negligent doctors but didn't.
I can deal with it but some people it seems are bothered when someone works at something rather than giving up. Kind of makes me glad I'm not an American. If I were, I might not have been willing to put out such effort when no one would expect it of me.

Bye


----------



## Tony B

Let me start by saying that there is no such thing as perpetual motion. There will always be energy losses in wind/air resistance. Heat loss, which is part of the energy loss, due to friction and a host of other things. 
I disagree with the OP and he surely disagrees with me. Everything is still cool. 
I think the build is a great idea if that is what he wants to do. I wouldn't discourage him from doing it just because we disagree in principle. I would rather encourage him to do it, if nothing else, from a historical point. Bessler's Wheel is a great project and a lot can be learned from it. 
I think the 'it will work' vs. the 'it will not work' has been beaten to death so let's all look at this as a woodworking project and give encouragement and leave the scientific stuff alone. He chose this forum as a woodworker not as a scientist or inventor or he wouldn't be here.
Good luck with your project and keep us informed.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Tony B said:


> Let me start by saying that there is no such thing as perpetual motion. There will always be energy losses in wind/air resistance. Heat loss, which is part of the energy loss, due to friction and a host of other things.
> I disagree with the OP and he surely disagrees with me. Everything is still cool.
> I think the build is a great idea if that is what he wants to do. I wouldn't discourage him from doing it just because we disagree in principle. I would rather encourage him to do it, if nothing else, from a historical point. Bessler's Wheel is a great project and a lot can be learned from it.
> I think the 'it will work' vs. the 'it will not work' has been beaten to death so let's all look at this as a woodworking project and give encouragement and leave the scientific stuff alone. He chose this forum as a woodworker not as a scientist or inventor or he wouldn't be here.
> Good luck with your project and keep us informed.


 Tony,
Thanks :yes:
There is one thing about it that I might have mentioned but it has not mattered in the past. I have done more than just homework on this. I have done quite a bit of testing to understand how much torque it requires to rotate a wheel.
I do have videos posted on youtube but I do not think they are set for public viewing.
Basically, if the net force is 3% of the total mass, the wheel will rotate. This means 4 ounces of net force will rotate 8 1 lb. weights.
4 oz.'s of net force with 2 opposing 1 lb. weights will rotate more than 3 revolutions while coasting. This is because the 4 oz. weight will drop off and the 2 - 1lb. weights are counter balancing each other.
All this means is that when the mass of water in each bellow is considered and how much it's center of gravity shifts relative to the lever doing the work. then net force can be calculated.
Still, if the force calculation for the work the bellow does is how much it opens, then that would be something not considered before.

Jim

p.s., I think I have posted a simple counter balanced design that should work. It relies on converting the acceleration of one weight into momentum of both weights while it is seeking a balance.
It's a simple trick of when a weight swings down, it generates force while it is moving closer to center. Another thing not considered before.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*This is Funny*

@sirlips, am sorry to hear that you do not consider a significant hearing loss a disability. Must be nice having normal hearing.

added; sirlips, not sure why you are taking this personally, it's not anything against anyone.
As for is it possible, the tests I have done suggest it's quite possible.

If you read this book, maybe you will think a little differently. You might find that history isn't what you think it is.
To Conquer the Air: The Wright Brothers and the Great Race for Flight: James Tobin: 9780743255363: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## DaveTTC

Only read a few posts at the beginning of the thread ... interesting, I'll be back to read more


----------



## J_Lindgaard

DaveTTC said:


> Only read a few posts at the beginning of the thread ... interesting, I'll be back to read more


 I know some of the details will be boring. When I am finished, I'll post some pics and a video.

p.s., @All, it's possible that the person posting as sirlips/Chad is not the real person. They told me they are a banker and neither Chad in Rochester, Minn. is one although one does take kids ice fishing. I find it difficult to believe that someone who works with kids would have his attitude.


----------



## frankp

DaveTTC said:


> Only read a few posts at the beginning of the thread ... interesting, I'll be back to read more


Please don't... it's turned into some sort of weird stalking/pissing match between the OP and a couple of other folks. Kinda creepy, actually.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

*Tsk, tsk Frank*



frankp said:


> Please don't... it's turned into some sort of weird stalking/pissing match between the OP and a couple of other folks. Kinda creepy, actually.


Frank,
When I said I thought I knew who sirlips was, I do. In overunity.com and besslerwheel.com, he posts as ab hammer. His name is not Chad but is Alan Bauldree. He has done this the entire time I have been working on Bessler's Wheel.
He also lives in Homer, La. and not in Rochester, Minn. What he was doing was "ghosting" the real Chad Holtz's so people would think he was on of them while not making any specific statement that would be construed as stealing an online persona.
That's why I've had to mention he's not one of them. After all Frank, it might surprise you to find out that I do understand engineering and science quite well.
I also know that people did not consider powered flight as being possible because the foremost scientific mind in America failed.
As the detractors of the Wright Bros. often said, if God had wanted man to fly, he would have given us wings.
Also, why were the Wright Bros. successful ? Because they considered what it took to allow for powered flight and did what today is called research and development. The Boeing Airplane Co. pretty much follows what they did.
Are you aware that they built a wind tunnel to test various models of wing design ? This allowed them to find the best design. Their original work went from Otto Lilienthal's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal) calculatiions for hang gliders in the 1890's. They realized for powered flight that they would have to come up with their own information.
I have done tests that allow me to calculate how much shift in mass results in a set amount of acceleration. Supposed resistance really has nothing to do with anything except for giving a person a reason to be skeptical.
It is not an easy build that I'm doing because I am not an experienced woodworker. Kind of puts me at a disadvantage. If I still worked in a machine shop, would've had it done a long time ago. I think aluminum and steel is easier to work with but that is only my opinion.
As for the picture, a weight on a lever gains force as the assembly is rotated. And since it's fulcrum is a distance from the weight, the weight can be at a right angle to the work the lever is doing.
This would allow the water to be drawn up in a different physical location than where the weight is performing work at.
And I am working on a mostly solid wood build. What's in the picture is best used as a prototype to understand the build process and to test a vacuum pump using bellows if I feel like it.
And what I find interesting is that I am from Dayton, Ohio, home of the Wright Bros. and also worked at Boeing where I took many off hour courses to learn more about making parts for planes and some of the basic engineering behind how they design them.
It's something that ab hammer/sirlips doesn't understand, when you spend your time learning, you can see someone else's engineering, especially if you take the time to learn it which I have done.
As for what Paul said about my financial situation, working on this has been worth the cost because it gave me a goal to pursue while working through a severe medical situation.
And now ? I am finally able to work 40 hours a week and have my job because my employer let me keep it. I am getting back into work shape so am a bit tired when I am off work.
As for this working, I have done enough math and testing to where it's just a matter of form.

Jim

p.s., as far as perpetual motion goes, if you consider linear momentum being converted into angular momentum, then Conservation of Energy applies which is an accepted principle in physics the last time I checked.
Simply put, physics does allow for the acceleration of gravity (a) to be conserved in a rotating motion. It's simply a matter of how efficiently you convert energy. 

p.s.s., since I have taken the time to work at this, it would be in my best interest to work off line. After all, the woman who has helped me to stay motivated is currently deployed in the U.S. Navy. I think she would want me to make a good showing of this.
And since she is deployed, this means I have some time to do a decent build. You know, one that is worth doing rather than doing one to try and prove something.


----------



## Chad Holst

WOW, LOL. Thats some stalking behavior if i have even seen it.

My Name is Chad, I do live in Rochester MN. I do run a Non-profit called Take a Kid Outdoors...In Rochester, MN and I do also work at a bank. The last name, as you wrote it is wrong, a common mistake when spelling my last name HOLST.

If you need further proof, feel free to visit my non-profits web site and read the bio on the board members. You will clearly see i am ME and work at a bank. Or..i suppose you could go to our facebook page Takeakidoutdoors and then visit my personal facebook page from there...you may even see some nice picture of my mug. 

What makes more sense here mr l? That you are a stalking, obsessive and detached person...OR that i'm really some man named Alan from downsouth, that created a fake profile on this site, stole a mans name in MN, created fake websites and even went so far as to create a fake IP address that is in MN. THen to really sell this fake profile i posted a bunch of comments about woodworking..in minnesota mind you, and THEN..when i did supposedly spring my master plan to stalk you in this thread (1 month after joining here) i posted kind and supportive remarks. Stop for a second mr l and think about that...which one is more likely. 
Now please, stay or go, i really dont care. Don't PM me anymore. Dont post about me here anymore. Keep this about your work. Or better yet, keep it about the woodworking part of your work.



I am guessing mr l (with a lower case mr and l) didnt like that i put him on my ignore list, so he had to take action and post something i would reply to. (thanks for the PM that this was going on).

Mods, is there something that can be done here? I dont care that this guy is off his rocker or that he wants to post names, or even personal information, but the stalking behavior is a bit much i think. Obviously if you read into his comment about the other websites he is on, this isnt the first set of issues he has had and it looks like he has other folks that are a bit concerned. Thanks.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

I'd just like to point out that I got a real life chuckle when I read that sirlips also has Mr. L on his ignore list due to incessant PMs.

p.s. I like pies.

p.s.s. I like apple pies the best, even though there isn't anything special about apple.

p.s.s.s. If p.s. stands for Post Script, shouldn't p.p.s. follow instead of p.s.s.? Post Script, Post Post Script, Post Post Post Script...

p.p.s.s.s. Look, I'm being like Mr. L and adding multiple p.s.'s to my posts.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

Miller Woodworks said:


> I'd just like to point out that I got a real life chuckle when I read that sirlips also has Mr. L on his ignore list due to incessant PMs.
> 
> p.s. I like pies.
> 
> p.s.s. I like apple pies the best, even though there isn't anything special about apple.
> 
> p.s.s.s. If p.s. stands for Post Script, shouldn't p.p.s. follow instead of p.s.s.? Post Script, Post Post Script, Post Post Post Script...
> 
> p.p.s.s.s. Look, I'm being like Mr. L and adding multiple p.s.'s to my posts.



You do keep good company. sirlips told me that because people are nice to his 5 year old daughter who has a hearing loss that people are nice to me as well. If that were the case, I probably would not be building Bessler's wheel. But as your friend says, no one has discriminated against me because of my hearing loss.
I find that amazing that he would compare me to a 5 y.o. little girl. The last time I checked, everyone is nice to little girls. Kind of why Shirley temple was so successful, they're just so adorable and all.
And I do have to accept what he says according to him. Still, you don't have a life. If you did, my working on this would not be a threat to you which it seems to be.
Not sure why a knowledgeable person like yourself would mention the Laws of Thermodynamics which primarily govern atomic behavior and not Conservation of Momentum which is applicable.
Even the heat loss from a boiler system which suffers entropy according to thermodynamics would not be considered the same as a body in motion. Sorry.
And the good one Miller Woodworks, it sure does seem like you are ignoring me by posting in my thread and all. A meaningless gesture at best. 
It is strange though that in a country like America, a person such as myself has to tolerate such severe criticism for trying to improve the conditions of their life through honest hard work. And since you seem to be ignorant of history, the Wright Bros. were successful because they worked at things. You know, people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. The Wright Bros. had a plan and it is something that I am basically following. Deal With it ! LMAO :thumbsup:


----------



## Chad Holst

Ok, i have to reply...this has went from frustrating to comical. J L, before reading this, please understand that i am NOT replying to you. This is 100% for the value of the other readers, as i think they will get a laugh out of it.

So, yes, my daughter had (thats past tense) a hearing loss. She, over the last year, had developed a worsening condition and finally we found out she needed tubes in her ears. She had a minor surgury and she is 100% fine now. So, while she DID have a hearing loss, she is fine now. What Sybil here is reffering to is a PM that i told him that hearing loss, or bad paretns, or any of the other things he quibbles about dont determine who you become or how people treat you. We need to be responsible for our selves and not let negative people change our attitudes. He then, somehow, took that as me talking down to him about hearing loss.!?#? hu...? 
Anyway, i said i dont look down on people because of hearing loss afterall.."MY DAUGHTER HAS A HEARING ISSUE". Thinking this would maybe get him to realize we are not all out to get him and we are not all taking his hearing loss as the reason to think poorly of him. That, then, became the basis for this last rant.

Hee Hee..
You got me. I hate kids. I hate hearing loss. I hate hard work. I hate smartester people. Yep... 



Ok, i have to go back to work at my fake job in MN now, see yah guys. 



P.S.S.P.S.P.I.P Be careful about posting here...unless you want a stalker.


----------



## Miller Woodworks

You're right, it is comedic. If I keep posting here, can I have a stalker? I've had a few people try, but they were bad at it. I wish I had a good stalker. 

P.S. I wish she was cute.

P.P.S. Haiku are easy.
Sometimes they don't make much sense.
Do you like my poem?

P.S.P.N. The Penguin Sports Programing Network. It's kinda like a sports channel, but not at the same time. Do penguins play sports?


----------



## J_Lindgaard

sirlips said:


> Ok, i have to reply...this has went from frustrating to comical. J L, before reading this, please understand that i am NOT replying to you. This is 100% for the value of the other readers, as i think they will get a laugh out of it.
> 
> So, yes, my daughter had (thats past tense) a hearing loss. She, over the last year, had developed a worsening condition and finally we found out she needed tubes in her ears. She had a minor surgury and she is 100% fine now. So, while she DID have a hearing loss, she is fine now. What Sybil here is reffering to is a PM that i told him that hearing loss, or bad paretns, or any of the other things he quibbles about dont determine who you become or how people treat you. We need to be responsible for our selves and not let negative people change our attitudes. He then, somehow, took that as me talking down to him about hearing loss.!?#? hu...?
> Anyway, i said i dont look down on people because of hearing loss afterall.."MY DAUGHTER HAS A HEARING ISSUE". Thinking this would maybe get him to realize we are not all out to get him and we are not all taking his hearing loss as the reason to think poorly of him. That, then, became the basis for this last rant.
> 
> Hee Hee..
> You got me. I hate kids. I hate hearing loss. I hate hard work. I hate smartester people. Yep...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, i have to go back to work at my fake job in MN now, see yah guys.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.S.P.S.P.I.P Be careful about posting here...unless you want a stalker.


 I have saved your messages. And what you posted is a bunch of B.S.
You even told me to ignore the woman who helped to keep me motivated while dealing with severe medical issues.
This kind of tells me you are a self centered jerk who only cares about tooting their own horn.
Your contribution in the thread has been nothing but negative. After all, I am working at something while all you can do is post b.s. about me.
I think I will inform the moderator of this forum that you are spamming my thread. It's all you are doing.

@ Miller, here is a clock that uses principles of thermodynamics to run. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmos_clock

p.s., sirlip or who ever you are, grown men don't go hee hee. Such a childish post.


----------



## J_Lindgaard

@All,
Here is something sirlips sent me,
>> Lets be honest here...You can try to argue that your not the one wrong here, but lets look at the facts: You say your not blaiming others, yet i have heard from you blaim your brothers, the police, the cancer doctors, the ear doctors, your parents, the Government, the US Navy, members of the other forum, ME, Miller and just about everyone in between. OH wait, lets not forget the past employers...social workers and teachers. <<

Let's see, my insides healed together because my surgeon ignored my complaints. Recovery time, over 4 years with often severe pain. My cancer doctor lied to me outright I found out. That is what helped my complications after surgery.
I think having my insides healed together is a problem. sirlips doesn't think doctors being negligent is something to be upset about.
Next, the police. One of my older brothers assaulted me with a weapon and when I called the police, they arrested me. Having a false conviction on your background check is a problem. Employers tend to not like that.
The issue sirlips has with my brothers is I tried helping 2 of them. One I know was molested as a kid. sirlips has let me know that people over come such things and that my brother did as well.
Myself, I do wonder if he is the Chad in Minnesota who got fired for forcing his opinion down his coworkers throats. Is this you ? http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/chad-holtz-pastor-fired-hell

and since you don't know me, why don't you go help somebody else ? I know who my father was, he is deceased now. And as I told you Chad, you are weak. You have said that I was not productive while dealing with my medical issues yet you won't leave me alone. Why ? I am nothing and no one to you yet for some reason I am supposed to look up to you when as you say, I don't know who you are.
Myself, I think you're a waste of time. And next, I'll post how you say you were molested so that means I can't have a life because you got over it. If so, then my working at something would not bring about your constant attacks which you justify.


----------



## Chad Holst

j l,

I suppose if i had the same name as that person, and lived in another state and was a different age...then i suppose that _could_ be me. If thats good enough for you, then i fear that your project is doomed, as the scientific method escapes you.

As far as the other "stuff"... you can keep saying whatever you want, as always my advise to you would be to keep this about woodworking and your project and not the personal stuff. I dont think my replies are helping, so i will simply leave you to your fantasies and psychosis.


----------



## Daren

J_Lindgaard said:


> ...
> I am going to ask the moderator to lock this thread....


Done, the last several posts are bickering, nothing constructive added to the forum.


.


----------

