# Opinions on this tool set, please.



## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

I just paid a visit to Woodcraft, in search of some smaller turning tools. I would like to get some opinions on whether, or not, this might be a pretty good purchase (can't presently afford too much). Advice on some other sets (not prohibitively costly :smile would also be appreciated. Anyway, the one set that I found is here:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/143718/WoodRiver-Mini-Turning-Tool-Set-5-piece.aspx

Also, what might be the thoughts on this little tool aid?
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/147490/Tormek-Turning-Tool-Setter.aspx

Lastly, I JUST found another tool set at Lowes (my wife works at Lowes and, therefore, could get 10% off of its cost). Please have a look, here:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_445710-4809...ls&UserSearch=turning+tools&productId=4645461


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## Bonanza35 (Jan 20, 2011)

I bought that Wood River set the day I bought my first lathe. They occasionally come in handy when I need to regrind one for some specialty application. They are very, very tiny. I honestly don't know what they would legitimately be used for. A good 1/2" detail gouge can turn minute details on toothpick thin finials and then make a perfect tenon on a large bowl. I'd start there along with a 1/2" bowl gouge and a parting tool. 

Oh, the display box they came in became a really cool treasure chest for my son, so it wasn't a totally wasted purchase.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Generally, it is better to buy individual tools rather than a set. Sometimes a set is OK, but not those two because they are very very small.

I have that Tormek tool setter and I used it today because I have a Tormek wet grinder and it is handy for quickly setting jigs up without trial and error. But, if you do not have a Tormek wet grinder then that little overpriced piece of plastic will be completely useless to you because it is dedicated to work only with the Tormek system.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bonanza35 said:


> I bought that Wood River set the day I bought my first lathe. They occasionally come in handy when I need to regrind one for some specialty application. They are very, very tiny. I honestly don't know what they would legitimately be used for. A good 1/2" detail gouge can turn minute details on toothpick thin finials and then make a perfect tenon on a large bowl. I'd start there along with a 1/2" bowl gouge and a parting tool.
> 
> Oh, the display box they came in became a really cool treasure chest for my son, so it wasn't a totally wasted purchase.


Ok, good enough. I will search fr those three that you mentioned, as opposed to a set. I hope to be able to find something affordable, very soon, as I am quite anxious to get going on some projects. As early as tomorrow, I will be searching around.

Thanks.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill Boehme said:


> I have that Tormek tool setter and I used it today because I have a Tormek wet grinder and it is handy for quickly setting jigs up without trial and error. But, if you do not have a Tormek wet grinder then that little overpriced piece of plastic will be completely useless to you because it is dedicated to work only with the Tormek system.


Thanks, Bill.

I, mistakenly, thought it would suffice to take the guesswork out of grinding angles - and that it could be used with ANY grinder (guess I should have done a bit deeper reading, on it). 

Have to find something, ASAP, which would allow proper sharpening on what tools I do have, and others that I am going to get. Hopefully, I can come across something a bit less, cost wise, than the Wolverine setup. That kit is a bit too heavy for the pocket :smile:.


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## saculnhoj (May 18, 2015)

Well I'm wondering why you need small tools. I turn smaller miniatures than almost anyone and I do have small tools for those but I turn doll house scale miniatures using mostly my normal size tools. Sometimes for detail work on the smaller work I use small tools and I do have a set I built just for hollowing and Christmas ornaments and turning those finials but when I travel I use my normal size tools for doing those same cuts. I use my body to help me turn so I prefer tools that have about 16" handles. 
As far as the sharpening aid it does work well but is rediculously expensive. Here is my video showing what I use and it works just as well and doesn't cost a thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

saculnhoj said:


> Well I'm wondering why you need small tools. I turn smaller miniatures than almost anyone and I do have small tools for those but I turn doll house scale miniatures using mostly my normal size tools. Sometimes for detail work on the smaller work I use small tools and I do have a set I built just for hollowing and Christmas ornaments and turning those finials but when I travel I use my normal size tools for doing those same cuts. I use my body to help me turn so I prefer tools that have about 16" handles.
> As far as the sharpening aid it does work well but is rediculously expensive. Here is my video showing what I use and it works just as well and doesn't cost a thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc


Thanks for the video. Gonna give it another watch, in just a minute.

My reasoning for leaning towards somewhat smaller tools was in thinking that it might be easier to turn smaller pieces with tools that weren't as beefy, or as wide as the few that I have. But, right now, it might be better for me to just concentrate on getting good, sharp cutting edges on these tools.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

You can very readily turn most miniature projects with full-size turning tools, but it's enormously difficult to turn full-size projects with miniature tools.
Unless your plan is to restrict yourself to turning very small projects, you don't want to throw your money away on any of those "sets".

In fact, it's best not to be beguiled by "sets" at all—they are primarily a marketing ploy and almost all of them fulfill their design function the minute somebody buys them.

Buy tools singly as a genuine need for them emerges in your evolving work, and not before. Only that approach can maximize the efficiency of your expenditures. 

Almost all of us, me included, have tools we spent money on in the past—and which we bought because it looked like a wonderful deal at the time—and which now sit almost unused somewhere. 
Either that or we have subsequently and dramatically modified them into something we_ can _use more often.

Don't forget that tool vendors' primary concern is to sell you a tool, and not necessarily make you into a better turner.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

One correction to John Lucas' sharpening video for newbies who aren't familiar with the various sharpening products -- the jig that he is using to hold the gouges is called a Varigrind -- several times he calls it a Wolverine jig and never mentions the name Varigrind.

The Wolverine is the fixture mounted to the base that the grinder is mounted on. It has an adjustable platform and also the adjustable length arm with a V pocket that the leg of the Varigrind jig sits in. Most woodturners are so familiar with that this system that they frequently use the names Wolverine and Varigrind interchangeably. One other important thing -- there is the original Varigrind and the Varigrind II. Get the original Varigrind. The Varigrind II was supposed to be an improved and safer version, but it actually restricts the usefulness of the tool to the point that it is almost useless unless you are interested in just one style of grind.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Went to Rockler, today, to take a look at what they had to offeri in the line of turning tools. The y had some pretty impressive tools there - especially those by Robert Sorby. I bristled, a bit, at the sticker prices, but I guess that is par for the course (in the regards of quality stuff). I had just $105 in my pocket to play with, but walked out without making a purchase of anything. 

The biggest thing is the great expansiveness of my excitement, over what I have returned to - with very deep entrancing. My air ship is traveling at warp speed, and I just have dial it down for a while. Once I am sharpened up, pretty good, I'll have enough to get some things done. You all, here, have been such an immense boon to me, and I have been fed so much helpful information from all who stepped forward to aid me. I WILL become a turner to be reckoned with, and it will all be because of YOU.

Sincerely,
Nathan


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> Went to Rockler, today, to take a look at what they had to offeri in the line of turning tools. The y had some pretty impressive tools there - especially those by Robert Sorby. I bristled, a bit, at the sticker prices, but I guess that is par for the course (in the regards of quality stuff). I had just $105 in my pocket to play with, but walked out without making a purchase of anything.
> 
> The biggest thing is the great expansiveness of my excitement, over what I have returned to - with very deep entrancing. My air ship is traveling at warp speed, and I just have dial it down for a while. Once I am sharpened up, pretty good, I'll have enough to get some things done. You all, here, have been such an immense boon to me, and I have been fed so much helpful information from all who stepped forward to aid me. I WILL become a turner to be reckoned with, and it will all be because of YOU.
> 
> ...


The cost of anything made of iron or steel has tripled or more in the past dozen years since I started turning. I thought that it was expensive when a Powermatic 3520 lathe was about $1800 or that most HSS turning tools were less than $35. And, I thought that things were horribly expensive then. I retired just before taking up turning which means that my purchasing power has steadily decreased because my retirement income is fixed while stuff that I buy seems to be rocketing out of sight. I'm glad that I have basically everything that I need because I certainly couldn't afford to jump in with both feet now.

Having said that, woodturning is a totally different animal from flat woodworking which I have done for more than 30 years. Woodturning forces you to learn so many new things -- more stuff about wood than I ever would have imagined to be important ... like how wood moves and how it dries and the small details about the structure of wood that enables you to be exposed to the beauty of wood that other never fully see. Some of the characteristics of green wood are so transient that nobody other than a woodturner ever gets to see it before it's gone. I get stoked by things like cutting wood to take maximum advantage of what it has to offer rather than just cutting it into lumber. Flat woodworker, for the most part sand the wood and then slop on some polyurethane varnish and that's it. Woodturners get into the art and science of finishes, fretting over the best type of finish, if any, for a particular project. Woodturners do strange stuff like decorating the wood, doing inlays, carving it, texturing it, burning it, putting shoe polish on it, dyeing it, covering it with horse poop to make it start decaying, featuring rather than caulking flaws, and even painting it. Sometimes measuring instruments are never even touched in making a piece. No wonder it is so addictive.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> Woodturners do strange stuff like decorating the wood, doing inlays, carving it, texturing it, burning it, putting shoe polish on it, dyeing it, covering it with horse poop to make it start decaying, featuring rather than caulking flaws, and even painting it.


 Awww Bill, you left out attacking a finished piece with a sandblaster. 
Or even a blowtorch.:thumbsup:


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> Awww Bill, you left out attacking a finished piece with a sandblaster.
> Or even a blowtorch.:thumbsup:


Yeah, just saying "burning it" is sorta vague since it covers all the ways that wood can be abused with heat ranging from using an industrial hair dryer to sending it to the sun on a space probe. :laughing:

When I took a class from Jimmy Clewes a couple months ago, one of the things that we did was use a MAPP torch to incinerate a box made of ash (ash, the wood, not the result of using the torch, hopefully). Believe it or not, the results looks really neat if done properly. If not done properly ... well, you could say that it's toast.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Nice.
Is the lid ash also? My first instinct for the lid was maple.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

The lid is figured maple dyed with Chestnut brand aniline dye.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I would rather have larger tools. Small ones are pretty much only good for small stuff like bottle stoppers, pens, tops, and trinkets like that. If you are new to turning I would recommend buying a decent set, then buying individual tools to fill in where the set falls short.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

It turned out that I (and much to the possible mild chagrin of many, here) went ahead and bought the HF set of HSS lathe chisels. My initial intention was in going in there to purchase the 4-sided diamond hone setup, and the MT2 drill chuck. But, after thinking long and hard on it, I decided that I would go ahead and grab that tool set. Why? Well, I don't want it to be thought that I just flat out disregarded the opinions on going against a 'tool set' purchase. It was the general consensus that I should just buy a tool at a time, and build up my arsenal in a somewhat singular fashion. It was also informed that 'sets'often come with some chisels that the turner may nit use. I, am not an experienced turner; knowing the differences of each tool. I am yet a novice. As such, buying the set that I did would - at the very least- give me some knowledge as the cutting characteristics of each tool. 

Another thing which helped my purchasing decision was the fact that a very good friend of mine is an employee at that HF location. I received his 20% employee discount on all items purchased. I'll see how they work out for me and, if there are issues, I have 90 days in which they can be returned/refunded.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Just finished a bit of time in my shop, and with those HF turning tools. Already, I know that they have to go back. They performed no better than these that I already had. Their cutting ends felt no better than mine, and I was a bit surprised at that. The set I bought was the lower end of the two HSS sets that they had. Their "professional" set was at a cost of $80, and had a slightly different lineup of chisels. But the "professional" set stated that the chisels were pre-honed, whereas my purchased set did not have that inclusion in the product description. 

I am just going to concentrate on learning how to sharpen what I have. That process may put me on hold, from turning, for longer than I would care for it to, but I am going to have to learn that talent - anyway.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> Just finished a bit of time in my shop, and with those HF turning tools. Already, I know that they have to go back. They performed no better than these that I already had. Their cutting ends felt no better than mine, and I was a bit surprised at that. The set I bought was the lower end of the two HSS sets that they had. Their "professional" set was at a cost of $80, and had a slightly different lineup of chisels. But the "professional" set stated that the chisels were pre-honed, whereas my purchased set did not have that inclusion in the product description....


Not so fast! You have to sharpen them before you can use them. Never mind what they say ... that's just advertising. I assume that you already have a grinder and jigs to sharpen the tools because you will be doing a lot of sharpening ... every few minutes while turning ... doesn't matter what brand except for how long before they need to be resharpened ... HF will need resharpening more frequently than most others, but that can be a good thing because it will help teach sharpening discipline.

Anyway, the tools can't possibly be as bad as you say. Useless maybe, but not unusable. The main complaint against sets is that they don't have the tools that you really need the most. They do have some necessary tools that get used a little, but this means very soon you will be shopping for other tools that you realize you need but don't have. Every beginner soon discovers that there's always "one more tool" that they must have.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> Not so fast! You have to sharpen them before you can use them. Never mind what they say ... that's just advertising.


 Indeed.

Just about all turning tools, premium brands or not, will need sharpening right out of the box. There are a few exceptions, but only a few. And even premium tools will need to have their edge refreshed _much_ more often than the tool catalogs imply.

Even with relatively non-abrasive timber a tool will need to be touched up on the grinder quite a few times on anything but the smallest and simplest turning , and with really abrasive woods one might sometimes wonder if it's worth turning the grinder off at all. 
Some of the elm around here, for example, will make a handsome and astonishingly tough salad bowl, but when dry can be so brutally abrasive that I'll need to visit the grinder almost after every pass, and that's with a premium brand gouge.

Your Harbor Freight tools _really will work just fine when they are actually sharp. 

_It's not all bad news though, because with inexpensive tools like those you won't be grinding away expensive steel as you learn to sharpen.
And learn to sharpen you absolutely must. You're not going to have much fun turning until you understand how to get your tools sharp. 

You will save a lot of time if there is a turning club close at hand where experienced turners can demonstrate for you what a sharp tool looks like, and more important, what it feels like when in use. 
That's not absolutely necessary—it's entirely possible to learn sharpening just from books and videos—but working alone will take longer and you'll make more mistakes.

Now that you have these HF tools, I'd be tempted to use _them_ to explore sharpening strategies rather than chewing up some fancy steel that costs $10 or more per inch.


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Guess I have a different opinion about "Sets" of tools. To be sure, you do often get tools you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. But I wonder, is that really a bad idea? I see people using tools in ways I'd not considered and, because I DID buy a set, I have them to try. But there's another reason I'm happy with the set I bought. I have something to practice sharpening with that didn't cost an arm and a leg.

That's an art too. I bought a set of "Hurricane" tools on Amazon and have been quite happy with them. The bowl gouges are not deep "V" so they don't have the strength as you move away from the tool rest, and they don't hold their edge as well as some. But I have learned to sharpen! I've ground down several of the tools beyond their ability to be used anymore, but I learned the process. And now I'm buying single tools that I've learned I need and appreciate what quality is all about. 

Anyway, you haven't gotten bad advice to your question. There's a few tools I use all the time but occasionally need to grab something I haven't messed with for awhile. And I'm always glad to have one from the old set. 

The truth will always be, "Buy Cheap, Get Cheap." But I think there's a difference between "Cheap," and "Inexpensive."


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Starter sets aren't really bad, but also they aren't entirely good either. We could say that they're ... well, ... uh ... starter sets. Something to get you started, but generally not everything that you need once you get past gee whiz and golly gee.

Here are some of the positives about starter sets:


You get some of the basic tools that you need like a skew, parting tool, spindle roughing gouge, scraper, and spindle gouge
The cost is less than buying individual tools
You probably will always find most of these tools useful occasionally
Some starter sets such as those made by Crown and Sorby have high quality steel
These tools can be repurposed to something else without any guilt or remorse
You can include them in your "tool count" :laughing:
Here are some of the negatives:


They are always small as if only gnomes use them
While they have useful tools for the most part, they don't have the ones that you need the most
It won't be more than a few months before you will be buying the grown up versions of these tools
Chinese made turning tools are variable and low quality steel
The cheap tool sets are tempered only on the end for about an inch or less -- once you use up the steel past that point, the edge holding hardness changes dramatically
I would guess that the majority of turners get a starter set in the beginning and that is partly the reason that we hear so many admonishments about avoiding them. But, to be fair, we need to put ourselves back where we were in the beginning and not recommend tools based on what we use now. Things change as we grow into this hobby.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill Boehme said:


> I assume that you already have a grinder and jigs to sharpen the tools?


No, Bill. I do have a bench top grinder but, as yet, no tool grinding jig. When I went to Rockler, the other day, I dang near bought the Wolverine system. From what I had been reading,the Vari-grind attachment (optional, of course) would have been a necessity, and my pockets just wouldn't have been deep enough to call the WHOLE setup mine. So, I have been scouring the Internet for plans on a good, homemade sharpening jig. Some units were accompanied with written feelings about how well the units performed, and those were almost always with mixed results. I didn't really want to go into a construction phase, on building a jig, With no better than that.

I then happened across this young fellow, from the UK (his name escapes me), who built a very, very simple jig. He stated that it worked exceptionally well for all of his chisels except one (and I've forgotten which one that was). I already have what's needed to put this jig together, and will give it a shot.

The Harbor Freight tool set? I think that I am still going to return it. Tool length had been mentioned by someone, here, and I have now seen what was meant. It was just a little bit discomforting to use these, due to their shorter length. I believe it was somewhere else that I read where one user, of this same set, opted for turning his own lengthier handles for the chisels. That's all well and fine, but an increase of the cost factor involved in having these.

Surely, there is something amiss with my turning technique, as I have (not yet) been able to get what I call that 'curly French fry' shaving effect :smile:. What I AM getting is heavy dusting, or what looks something like cereal flakes. No shavings.

I am still in search of woodturning clubs, in or around my area, and am anxiously looking forward to that turning class at Rockler, on (I believe) the 18th. I will call them back, tomorrow, to make sure of the date, though.

Meantime, I am going to make myself a parting tool, Nd check into buying a 3/8" bowl gouge (as had been suggested). Maybe I can even make my own scraper. I'll see.

Yes, I sure am trying to get there :smile:.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> Surely, there is something amiss with my turning technique, as I have (not yet) been able to get what I call that 'curly French fry' shaving effect :smile:. What I AM getting is heavy dusting, or what looks something like cereal flakes. No shavings..


Be aware that while most timbers, when green, will produce those seemingly endless ribbons of shavings, quite a large proportion of wood species, when dry, absolutely will not.
Some, like some of the fruitwoods, will turn beautifully when dry (or at least when air-dried), with virtually no dust at all, whereas others, like mahogany, will produce chips and copious amounts of dust no matter how sharp the tools are.

Those inspiring videos you see where the turner gradually disappears under a mountain of curly shavings? They're almost certainly turning wood that is freshly cut and green as can be.

This is why it's so much more fun to practice on green timber than on dried lumber. A freshly pruned tree branch is to be much preferred as a learning material than a piece of kiln-dried lumber off the rack at a box store. 
The branch will contain the pith of course, so whatever form you turn out of it will almost certainly check as it dries, but for the purpose of learning various cuts and learning how different sharpening strategies affect the tool's performance that's not really important.

Green wood is so much easier to turn and so much more forgiving than dried lumber that it is by far the best material for learning to turn.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

You could make a v-arm jig, but I would recommend just buying the vari- grind jig. I made one, but soon after that I bought a used one for $10. I never used mine and like the Oneway vari- grind much better.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

9thousandfeet said:


> Be aware that while most timbers, when green, will produce those seemingly endless ribbons of shavings, quite a large proportion of wood species, when dry, absolutely will not.
> Some, like some of the fruitwoods, will turn beautifully when dry (or at least when air-dried), with virtually no dust at all, whereas others, like mahogany, will produce chips and copious amounts of dust no matter how sharp the tools are.
> 
> Those inspiring videos you see where the turner gradually disappears under a mountain of curly shavings? They're almost certainly turning wood that is freshly cut and green as can be.
> ...


9K, this is really great info. I didn't know that. 

I have heard of turners turning bowls out of green wood, and had wondered why they did so - when said bowls are, very likely, to be adoptive of different characteristics than that of what they had been turned to. Or is it that those turners are experienced enough to know what the end results would be - after that green wood bowl had properly dried out - and would be acceptable of that?


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

hwebb99 said:


> You could make a v-arm jig, but I would recommend just buying the vari- grind jig. I made one, but soon after that I bought a used one for $10. I never used mine and like the Oneway vari- grind much better.
> View attachment 172634


99, if you don't mind my asking, what was it about your homemade version that you did not like? I don't know much, at all, about these things, but yours looks as if it would be every bit as functional as the manufactured one.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> 99, if you don't mind my asking, what was it about your homemade version that you did not like? I don't know much, at all, about these things, but yours looks as if it would be every bit as functional as the manufactured one.


It looks like the range of the arm might be restricted compared to the Varigrind.

You could do a search for the dimensions of the Ellsworth jig.. Many years ago, David Ellsworth made his design freely available. It has been harder to find now that places like Woodcraft are selling them for a handsome price.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> I have heard of turners turning bowls out of green wood, and had wondered why they did so ...


 It's extremely commonplace for a turner to turn bowls out of green wood—leaving the walls of the bowl extra thick—then allowing that "rough-turned" bowl to dry before turning it again to its finished dimensions before sanding and applying a finish.

The primary reason for this is that solid chunks of wood of sufficient size for, say, a salad bowl, are next to impossible to dry without checking, and even if you _could_ find a way to dry them it would take forever. Many years.
Whereas a rough-turned salad bowl will seldom be more than an inch thick anywhere, so it will dry much faster (a few months) and though it will warp quite a bit, if some routine care is taken it won't check.

I'd say probably 90% of my own bowls are made using this strategy (often referred to in turner's lingo as "twice turned"), and I, like most turners who think of themselves primarily as bowlmakers, always have several hundred rough-turned bowls in various stages of drying at all times.

It's also possible, and not uncommon, to turn a bowl from green wood all the way to completion, usually with walls thin enough so that the piece will dry fairly quickly and will warp as it does so. With experience, that warping can be fairly predictable and can therefore become an integral part of the design process. 
Some woods respond more cooperatively to this approach than others and while some examples of this approach can be sturdy and even completely functional, others might be wonderfully light and delicate.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

9thousandfeet said:


> It's extremely commonplace for a turner to turn bowls out of green wood—leaving the walls of the bowl extra thick—then allowing that "rough-turned" bowl to dry before turning it again to its finished dimensions before sanding and applying a finish.
> 
> The primary reason for this is that solid chunks of wood of sufficient size for, say, a salad bowl, are next to impossible to dry without checking, and even if you _could_ find a way to dry them it would take forever. Many years.
> Whereas a rough-turned salad bowl will seldom be more than an inch thick anywhere, so it will dry much faster (a few months) and though it will warp quite a bit, if some routine care is taken it won't check.
> ...


Aha....I KNEW that there had to be a trick to it :smile:.

Thanks for this info.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill Boehme said:


> It looks like the range of the arm might be restricted compared to the Varigrind.
> 
> You could do a search for the dimensions of the Ellsworth jig.. Many years ago, David Ellsworth made his design freely available. It has been harder to find now that places like Woodcraft are selling them for a handsome price.


Thanks for the explanation. 

However, it now appears that I may have another equipment issue. After more researching, I have learned that my bench grinder is not up to snuff. Mine, is a Craftsman grinder, with 6" wheels and single speed, only. It seems that the appropriate grinder will incorporate 8" wheels, as well as being a variable, or dual speed type. Also, the TYPE of grinding wheels come into play. So, from what I have been given to understand, I would need to purchase another grinder, AND a set of the required wheels to run on it.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> Thanks for the explanation.
> 
> However, it now appears that I may have another equipment issue. After more researching, I have learned that my bench grinder is not up to snuff. Mine, is a Craftsman grinder, with 6" wheels and single speed, only. It seems that the appropriate grinder will incorporate 8" wheels, as well as being a variable, or dual speed type. Also, the TYPE of grinding wheels come into play. So, from what I have been given to understand, I would need to purchase another grinder, AND a set of the required wheels to run on it.


Uh, NO!

Six inch is OK, but 8 inch is preferred because the wheel is wider. Single speed! Variable or dual speed is just a totally useless whiz-bang. Most turners prefer what they call slow speed although it is a fast 1740 RPM give or take about 20 RPM. This is the speed of a four pole AC induction motor. The other speed (high speed) is about 3550 RPM which is the speed of a two pole AC induction motor. Four pole motors run smoother than two pole motors so there is less vibration. If the stone is a bit out of balance, the slower speed will result is a bit less vibration also. You want the white aluminum oxide wheels, 40 grit and 80 grit approximately and J or K hardness.

The Norton 3X seeded Gel wheels are really nice, but cost about twice as much. CBN wheels are the Cadillac of grinding wheels and run around $180 each. Grinders usually come with gray silicon carbide wheels. Fine for lawnmower blades, but not for HSS turning tools.

Forget about reaching the point where you will finally have all the tools that you need. That goes in the same bucket as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and Unicorns.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill Boehme said:


> Uh, NO!
> 
> Six inch is OK, but 8 inch is preferred because the wheel is wider. Single speed! Variable or dual speed is just a totally useless whiz-bang. Most turners prefer what they call slow speed although it is a fast 1740 RPM give or take about 20 RPM. This is the speed of a four pole AC induction motor. The other speed (high speed) is about 3550 RPM which is the speed of a two pole AC induction motor. Four pole motors run smoother than two pole motors so there is less vibration. If the stone is a bit out of balance, the slower speed will result is a bit less vibration also. You want the white aluminum oxide wheels, 40 grit and 80 grit approximately and J or K hardness.
> 
> ...


Ok....good enough. I've just breathed a sigh of relief :smile:.

Yes, my grinder has those grey, silicon carbide wheels on it. So, I guess it is back to Rockler to get the wheels that they'd made reference to, the other day. Not sure if they would have the 6" size, since I would think most turners are opting for the larger wheels. But, if they don't have them, they can be ordered online. 

Thanks, again.


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Glad to hear you're making progress. I've not seen the HF set you bought but you've gotten two good pieces of advice about it. It's not useless, and it MUST be sharpened. I only know one tool maker that will tell you his tools are ready to use out of the box; Doug Thompson. ALL the others require some bevel polish if not out and out reshaping and grinding. You really do need to get some advice, and there's plenty of good books on the subject. One I like is by Richard Raffin. His sharpening instructions are basic and dependable, easy to understand and simply work. Raffin is a professional and has adapted some processes to speed and that's not what you're looking for. But his guidance is sound and a great place to begin. Some don't care for his design concepts, and I get that, but basic sharpening is basic sharpening if you hang it on a Cow! 

Now, you've heard about the Wolverine/Vari Grind system. They WORK! There's others but that one seems to lead the pack. You will need a low speed grinder ESPECIALLY on those HF tools. Otherwise the metal will heat to the point of loosing it's temper. 

You commented about the length of the tools and that's an issue. The tool itself and it's handle are sized to the general public by most quality tool makers. The best guidance I can give you is to go back to whatever tool supply place you saw the Sorbey set at an hold one of them like you were at the lathe. You'll see immediately why the HF tool handle is the wrong one. I'm not endorsing Sorbey tools. They are great quality and you can't do much better in the HSS category. They do make a wonderful standard against which to compare all the others, and there's plenty of others. That's one of the problems. If a poll were taken just on this site of 100 turners, I hesitate to guess how many different tools makers would be endorsed. In my own shop, I've got tools by FOUR different makers and would endorse all four!

My immediate guidance would be to buy the Wolverine with one of the Vari Grind attachments for small diameter gouges. Buy a low speed grinder that runs around 1700 RPM. And get Raffin's book, or one of the various others that talk about sharpening. Go to Amazon and look; there's a bunch of them. 

You really can learn this on your own. But the very next expense you should incur is to take a three day class at one of the wonderful turning schools around the country or get a personal class with a professional turner. Anyone on this site could teach you or direct you to someone that knows what they are doing. Lots of help out there. Start with the basics, as you have, and learn. When you HAVE learned, TELL US! We need to learn too. GET IT?


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Forget about reaching the point where you will finally have all the tools that you need. That goes in the same bucket as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and Unicorns.

Okay, Bill, this time you've gone too far. I understand about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but you keep your hands off the Unicorns! Are you implying they aren't real? Geez! What a prude. We'll need to talk more about this. I've got a band of Pixies that move my tools around and return them dull that you need to see in action sometime.

Now, about that grinder information; that's great stuff. I've never heard it explained that well. Thank you. I've got a variable speed grinder that's "Supposed" to go down to 2,000. And it's equipped with two CBN wheels; 80 and 180. Does a wonderful job too. I've been known to use a belt sander for skews to avoid the hollow grind. Actually, my old grinder died and I had to use a belt sander for EVERYTHING. Not a pretty process but it can be done. 

Just took a class with David Ellsworth and bought one of his PM + bowl gouges and the guide he designed. I'm not sure the guide is that much an improvement over the Vari Grind but he says it is, so, I use it. Quite a class and quite a tool too. 

Actually, he had to chase off a Unicorn that was trying to graze where he was using his chain saw. Small one but still, there it was. And if you can't trust David Ellsworth to tell you the truth, who CAN you trust?


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

A 6" grinder is big enough. 

While an 8" slow speed grinder is preferred by many turners, much more important than size and speed is to develop a light and sensitive touch when sharpening.

The idea is to have the tool just "kissing" the wheel with just a very light pressure.

If you think in terms of it being almost impossible to have too _light_ of a touch, but _very_ easy to have too heavy a touch, you'll be on the right track.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

NLAlston said:


> 99, if you don't mind my asking, what was it about your homemade version that you did not like? I don't know much, at all, about these things, but yours looks as if it would be every bit as functional as the manufactured one.


 The biggest difference is the Oneway has sort of a V shape where the tool lays, and mine has a flat surface. The flat surface is almost impossible to get a round tool to stay where it is supposed to be.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

hwebb99 said:


> The biggest difference is the Oneway has sort of a V shape where the tool lays, and mine has a flat surface. The flat surface is almost impossible to get a round tool to stay where it is supposed to be.


Thanks.

I did, a little while ago, find a YouTube video on someone who built a copy of the Ellsworth jig. That one, is the best that I have seen, to date, and will most likely be the one that I construct. If I had the ready cash, to do so, I would shell out for the VariGrind jig. But I do not, and the one that I've mentioned, above, seems to be the best candidate for construction. 

Your mention of the differing ends - between the jig you made, and the manufactured one that you'd bought - is very good info. I will be certain to give that rod a semi pointed end. 

Yesterday, I wanted to turn something, so bad, that I set myself into a free-hand grinding stage. My chisels did a bit better, than before, but I know that I didn't have them where they really needed to be. I feel that, with a jig made, I will fare a whole lot better. 

The video I saw showed that turner's shop made jig with a 'fixed' rod, at a 45 degree angle. I think that I will make mine to be adjustable. 

At any rate, I am so looking forward to getting it made and, therefore, being able to do some safe turning, with chisels which should (at least) be closer to proper grinds - if not DIRECTLY on target :smile:.

Eventually, I want to learn how to reach the point where I can grind WITHOUT the aid of a jig, and I did see a video on a guy who had shown his process of doing so. The chisels I have are considered entry level tools, I'm sure, so there isn't much of a concern with my practicing on them. One day, I WILL be investing in much better chisels and, at that point, I hope to be able to treat (grind) them just as properly as they would need to be.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

*About grinding without using a jig ...*

The modern wood turning movement is evolving so rapidly that most of the things at our disposal weren't available even fifteen years ago. This is especially true of jigs for bowl and spindle gouges made from round bar stock. This means that until recently there was no choice other than learning to grind without a jig. It's too bad that a certain mystique about "freehand" grinding exists because it is overrated and destined for Neanderthal status in the future of woodturning. Except for about three world famous professionals, I've never seen freehand sharpening that impressed me. I've seen plenty of examples of freehand sharpening by pros that could serve as examples of why using jigs makes more sense. Using a jig wastes less metal and produces better results that are consistent and repeatable.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> Eventually, I want to learn how to reach the point where I can grind WITHOUT the aid of a jig...


I _can_ sharpen without a jig and produce an edge that performs the way I want it to.

But I can produce a more consistent result along with a more versatile edge profile by using a jig. And more quickly and with less steel wastage to boot.
At this point I'd rather undergo a root canal than go back to freehand sharpening.

There are always a few boring old fossils who cling to the idea that jigs are somehow "cheating" and will wax nostalgically about how "real skills" are being lost and blah blah blah. 
It's all baloney, and belongs in the same category of nonsense as all that "I used to have to walk five miles to school in the snow—uphill both ways." gobbledygook. Well hey, guess what Grandpa? They invented school buses!!

Here's Dave Ellsworth, who just might know a thing or two about sharpening, on the subject;


> "So, to all my students over all those early years who endured my lessons on sharpening this tool [by hand], I apologize..... That's why I came up with the [jig] which makes the process a pleasure. I use it all the time, both in my own workspace and when I'm on the road. It gives me a perfect shape every time and takes only a micro amount of steel off the tool."


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## NCPaladin (Aug 7, 2010)

On the topic of grinders, the 8" and slow speed seem to the recommended. I made my grinding station back in the 80's, 6" and not sure of the speed but it works just fine. As others said, use a light touch. I would get just one "white" wheel and leave the other gray for mower blades etc.

I may be wrong but I don't think you need an adjustable arm on the grinding jig. Most jigs state to extend the tip 1.75 to 2" out. If you vary the amount extended it will change the grind angle because it will contact the wheel in a different position. Most people make little gauges that the end of the tool slips into to set the amount extended and get repeated cuts. If you make different depth gauges you will get different angle grinds. (If extended 1.75 it may be 45*, at 2" it may be 55*, or at 2.25 it may be 65*).


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> I _can_ sharpen without a jig and produce an edge that performs the way I want it to.
> 
> But I can produce a more consistent result along with a more versatile edge profile by using a jig. And more quickly and with less steel wastage to boot.
> At this point I'd rather undergo a root canal than go back to freehand sharpening....


Well, I would rather bathe my cat (without body armor) than freehand sharpen if I have a jig available.

There's been a few instances where I had to resort to freehand sharpening because I left my jig back home. The lesson that I learned -- just because I can doesn't mean that I have to like it. The jig does a much better job faster.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

NLAlston said:


> . Your mention of the differing ends - between the jig you made, and the manufactured one that you'd bought - is very good info. I will be certain to give that rod a semi pointed end. be.


 That wasn't what I was talking about. That part on my jig is round and works fine. I was referring to the top of the jig where the gouge lays. I would like to post you a picture of the difference, but I won't be able to get back in the shop until next week. If someone could post a close up picture of the end of a Oneway vari-grind jig that would be great.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Here is a head-on view of my Varigrind.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

BTW, here is a side view with it attached to a bowl gouge. Here are the settings if you want to use a Varigrind to create an Ellsworth grind on the gouge: Nose bevel angle is 60°, tool protrusion from jig is 2 inches, arm is set to the center notch (there are seven notches). I arrived at the arm setting by placing my Ellsworth jig side by side with the Varigrind. Once you have established the 60° nose angle, just slide the Wolverine arm until the nose is flush with the stone and lock it in position. I have the wings on my gouge swept back a bit more than average, but it is your choice how far back you want the wings. I have another with the wings swept back almost twice as far as this one.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

The notches are another thing my homemade jig didn't have.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

hwebb99 said:


> That wasn't what I was talking about. That part on my jig is round and works fine. I was referring to the top of the jig where the gouge lays. I would like to post you a picture of the difference, but I won't be able to get back in the shop until next week. If someone could post a close up picture of the end of a Oneway vari-grind jig that would be great.


Thanks for clearing that up for me :smile:.


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## NLAlston (Jan 11, 2008)

Bill Boehme said:


> BTW, here is a side view with it attached to a bowl gouge.
> 
> View attachment 172857


Thanks, Bill.


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Bill,
I just took a class with David and asked him what made his grinding jig better, or different, than a Vari Grind. He said that his establishes the correct angle for the side grind where, according to him the Vari Grind does not. I bought one of his gouges and the jig based on what he said. I'm home now, tried both and can see no difference in them. They both establish a correct angle. His doesn't have the variability the Vari Grind has, for good or bad. So his is always right, but only for his gouges, unless you want every gouge ground at 60 degrees. And on that note, his gouge is one heck of a tool. Not much you can't do with it. Powdered steel and holds a nice edge. The tool was a good buy; jury is still out on his jig.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

revjerry said:


> Bill,
> He said that his establishes the correct angle for the side grind where, according to him the Vari Grind does not.


 He's wrong, simple as that.

What he seems not to understand is that the angle for the side grind is established almost entirely by the position of the pocket which the jig rests in and not the design of the jig itself. 
Move the pocket further from the wheel and the side angle is steeper, move it closer and it's less steep. This is true regardless of who made the jig, or whether that jig has provision for angle adjustment or not.

But adjusting the angle on the jig itself—which the Oneway unit permits but Ellsworth's unit does not—affects the side angle only very minimally but dramatically affects the nose angle. 
This can be verified experimentally quite easily. With the grinder turned off place a gouge in a Varigrind jig and, with the jig in the pocket, hold the jig flopped over to one side as if grinding the side angle. 
Then alter the jig angle and you'll see the relationship between the side of the gouge and the surface of the wheel doesn't change very much at all. But if you slide the pocket in or out, it changes very rapidly.

Thus it's not the design of the jig which is responsible for the side grind angle at all, but rather the position of the pocket the jig rests in.

By juggling both the pocket position and the jig angle it's possible to replicate Ellsworth's grinds with no small amount of precision. 
And with the Oneway setup it's also possible to maintain the same side angle by adjusting the pocket position while at the same time changing the nose angle by adjusting the jig angle. 

This is not remotely possible with Ellsworth's jig.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

revjerry said:


> Bill,
> I just took a class with David and asked him what made his grinding jig better, or different, than a Vari Grind. He said that his establishes the correct angle for the side grind where, according to him the Vari Grind does not. I bought one of his gouges and the jig based on what he said. I'm home now, tried both and can see no difference in them. They both establish a correct angle. His doesn't have the variability the Vari Grind has, for good or bad. So his is always right, but only for his gouges, unless you want every gouge ground at 60 degrees. And on that note, his gouge is one heck of a tool. Not much you can't do with it. Powdered steel and holds a nice edge. The tool was a good buy; jury is still out on his jig.


David Ellsworth is a wonderful guy and a great artist, but he's not a mathematician so some of his numbers aren't quite mathematically precise ... but just as in horseshoes and hand grenades, being close is often good enough. Some of the old documentation that you might find will say that the set-up that he gives will produce a perfect 55° nose bevel angle and others will say 60°. Not that it matters, but neither is exactly correct. If for some reason you do want 60° then change the 7 inch dimension in his set-up instructions to 7⅜ inches and you will be closer than there is any reasonable need to be. If I get a "round tuit", I will make a chart of distance settings to give various nose bevel angles.

You are correct that you can use a Varigrind to produce a "perfect" Ellsworth grind every bit as good as his jig. The caveat is that you will need something to precisely set the leg angle the same every time to keep a consistent profile and cut down on the amount of steel being wasted. 

David Ellsworth developed his jig a very long before there was a Varigrind or a Wolverine or even a Oneway Manufacturing. If the Wolverine had existed, he probably would have told people how to use his jig in the Wolverine without needing to make a fixture to position the jig the right distance from the grinding wheel. If the Varigrind had also existed back then, he might have also told other turners how to use the Varigrind rather than coming up with his own tool. But, as it turned out, he taught other professional turners something very important ... you need several income streams to be able to eat regularly. And, there's nothing better than having a line of tools and convincing other turners how much they really do need those tools to achieve greatness. Actually, you achieve greatness by selling tools ... not by buying them.

Anyway, now that the Wolverine fixture exists and most woodturners own one, there really isn't a need to construct an Ellsworth set up fixture despite the fact that many woodturners refuse to believe that it is possible to produce the correct profile unless Mr. Ellsworth's instructions are followed to the letter. I have been called a heretic (I really have) for claiming that I can put my Ellsworth jig (or Varigrind, for that matter) in the Wolverine and get precisely the same results. There is a small caveat: the Ellsworth set-up fixture gives you the perfect nose bevel angle with any futzing around, so it will be necessary to come up with some other way to set the nose angle. The easiest way is to mark the bevel with a Sharpie and then slide the Wolverine arm until the bevel is flush with the wheel surface. Another way that is a bit more trouble, but more accurate is to adjust the distance from the center of the wheel to the pocket to 11⅞ inches. This might necessitate removing the shroud from the wheel so it is a not very practical solution.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> so it will be necessary to come up with some other way to set the nose angle..... Another way that is a bit more trouble, but more accurate is to adjust the distance from the center of the wheel to the pocket to 11⅞ inches. This might necessitate removing the shroud from the wheel so it is a not very practical solution.


I must be missing something, because this confuses me and I need some help to understand the geometry here. 

How can the distance from the _center_ of the wheel to the pocket define a (specific) nose angle without taking any account of the diameter of the wheel, which of course varies over time from grinding wear and periodic dressing?
Is not the measurement from the pocket to the _face_ of the wheel more reliable for that purpose, rather than the center?


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

*Ellsworth Jigs*

Bill, 
At his class, David used the Wolverine sliding device to hold his Ellsworth Jig. I couldn't understand, and still can't, how his jig was the slightest bit different than the Vari Grind. And based on what you're saying, there IS no difference. Well, if I bought something I didn't need, it won't be the first time.

He's an interesting person to learn from and a magnificent teacher. He spent two hours baffling and overwhelming us with what he wanted us to learn and then took the balance of the class to teach it to us. It's the old method; Tell 'em what you're going to tell 'em, Tell 'em, then Tell 'em what you told 'em. He's good at it too.

By the end of the class I was using his signature bowl gouge to do things I never would have considered otherwise. 

Learned a great deal about sharpening too, including what you're saying about angles. The specific angle isn't nearly as important as getting one that works and being able to repeat it.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> I must be missing something, because this confuses me and I need some help to understand the geometry here.
> 
> How can the distance from the _center_ of the wheel to the pocket define a (specific) nose angle without taking any account of the diameter of the wheel, which of course varies over time from grinding wear and periodic dressing?
> Is not the measurement from the pocket to the _face_ of the wheel more reliable for that purpose, rather than the center?


Yeah, I noticed that I left out some information. I was thinking about the table or spreadsheet with wheel diameters. However, distance to face of wheel is a close enough approximation and certainly a lot easier to measure. It would be a simple matter to use a quarter inch dowel rod between the pocket and wheel face to set the distance to 7⅞ inches.



revjerry said:


> .... Well, if I bought something I didn't need, it won't be the first time.....


Think of it as stimulating the economy ... at least DE's economy.  And even though you may not need it, it is still useful. Now, do you think that I would ever be so foolish to buy something that I don't actually need?









Of course I wouldn't. :laughing:

I bought those strictly for instructing others on what they don't need ... that's my story. My alert photography model and woodturning assistant, Mel (They call me, Mellow Yellow), will back up my story.









Mel, when you finish your nap would you sharpen my bowl gouge?

Below is a CAD sketch that I made showing dimensions for setting the pocket to wheel distance.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

> It would be a simple matter to use a quarter inch dowel rod between the pocket and wheel face to set the distance to 7⅞ inches.


 OK, that makes sense.

I guess I think about this issue sort of backwards by comparison. In my mind the pocket position is the adjustment I use to get the side angle I like, and then an adjustment of the leg angle on the jig gives me the nose angle I want.
Like I said, changing just the Varigrind leg angle changes the nose angle dramatically but doesn't affect the side angle all that much. Changing the Wolverine pocket position dramatically affects both.

I'm unpersuaded that Mel gives a darn one way or another.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> OK, that makes sense.
> 
> I guess I think about this issue sort of backwards by comparison. In my mind the pocket position is the adjustment I use to get the side angle I like, and then an adjustment of the leg angle on the jig gives me the nose angle I want.
> Like I said, changing just the Varigrind leg angle changes the nose angle dramatically but doesn't affect the side angle all that much. Changing the Wolverine pocket position dramatically affects both.
> ...


Well, what you say is true about the effect of the two adjustments, but since the Ellsworth jig is a one-trick pony, the distance takes care of both the nose angle and side angle since they are unalterably tied together.

Mel does sort of look laid back (which is the reason for his name, Mellow Yellow), but looks can sometime fool you (not in this case, however).


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Actually, I've got an identical "Mellow Yellow" here and he has just about as much interest. Once he's laid down in the middle of things and asserted that he could take over, "IF HE WANTED TO," he'll get up and leave me to my own devices.

I think we've beat the angles hard enough to confuse all of us. The bottom line is that a jig which delivers a consistent, predictable and repeatable set of angles is all any of us could wish for. I set up DE's gouge in either the Vari Grind or his jig and moved the pocket back and forth until the bevel on the gouge was flat on the wheel. I have a block screwed to the table next to the grinder which gives me the 2" I need out the front of the jig. With those two maneuvers I get the same angle every time; is there anything else I need to worry about?

Time to move on to other issues that will complicate things beyond belief. Like should you use an expansion tenon? Lots of reasons on both sides of that one, but I sure like them. Makes a clean base.

One final note, I got to talk to an engineer from Sorbey about their Spiral cutter and asked why it's so difficult to use. He explained that I need to measure the distance between any two of the cutting edges and make sure the circumference on my spindle is a multiple of that. Of coarse, he just cut one, it wasn't right so he turned it down carefully until the marks were just barely gone, cut another one and it was perfect. That was his trick and his answer. I've tried in a number of times since I got home and it works perfectly EVERY TIME. Why doesn't Sorbey put that in their instruction manual?

Jerry


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

revjerry said:


> Actually, I've got an identical "Mellow Yellow" here and he has just about as much interest. Once he's laid down in the middle of things and asserted that he could take over, "IF HE WANTED TO," he'll get up and leave me to my own devices....


Cats do that because they know that they either are or will soon be in charge. Mel was my dad's cat until he passed away recently. He is really a sweet kitty.



revjerry said:


> ... With those two maneuvers I get the same angle every time; is there anything else I need to worry about? ...


for starters, here are a few ... the economy, Pluto's status as a planet, if a tree falls in the forest and a woodturner doesn't hear it, .... is it time to change hearing aid batteries?



revjerry said:


> ... One final note, I got to talk to an engineer from Sorbey about their Spiral cutter and asked why it's so difficult to use. He explained that I need to measure the distance between any two of the cutting edges and make sure the circumference on my spindle is a multiple of that. Of coarse, he just cut one, it wasn't right so he turned it down carefully until the marks were just barely gone, cut another one and it was perfect. That was his trick and his answer. I've tried in a number of times since I got home and it works perfectly EVERY TIME. Why doesn't Sorbey put that in their instruction manual?


Well, obviously if you are persistent, the spiraling tool will chew the wood down to the right diameter and all will be fine. :laughing:


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## Jerry Maske (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, I DO wear hearing aids. When I'm doing wood work, I turn them off and they make great ear plugs. I'll still go looking for that fallen tree, however.

I can't worry about whether or not Pluto is a planet. It always was when I was growing up and always will be, in my humble opinion. The scientists that claim it's NOT a planet are spending my tax dollars in ways I do not approve of, so their opinions are like certain body parts. Everyone has them and sometimes they stink pretty badly.

Finally we come to the economy. I think blaming ANY of my troubles on the economy is a way of not dealing with my troubles. Define "The Economy." And no matter how you do it, you'll come up short. I can't do much about it. The government is going to spend my tax dollars in stupid ways just as they always have and always will. There's NO ONE in congress I trust. Everyone one of them are proven liars and inept at their jobs; consider the condition our country is in. How can you say they are anything BUT inept. The best predictor of Future behavior is Past behavior, so what can we expect of them but stupidity, lies and ineptness? That's what they are good at and we're too stupid to vote them out.

So, I'll worry about getting a working angle on my bowl gouge. That's something I CAN do something about. Doug Thompson's web site has a great run down on how to set up the Vari Grind and what angles you should have for each tool, in his opinion, anyway. And it's a good place to start. MY OPINION, however misguided, is that if it works for you, don't mess with it.

Jerry


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Here are some pictures of the difference between my jig and a Oneway. Another difference is the Oneway has a piece of spring steel to keep the rotation of the screw from scratching the gouge.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> .... Another difference is the Oneway has a piece of spring steel to keep the rotation of the screw from scratching the gouge.......


That's the old style Varigrind. The design was upgraded several years ago. I bought the upgrade kit for mine which originally had the piece of spring steel.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

Bill Boehme said:


> That's the old style Varigrind. The design was upgraded several years ago. I bought the upgrade kit for mine which originally had the piece of spring steel.


 What does the upgrade do? Mine is probably ten or more years old.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

The upgrade replaces the rotating metal screw and spring steel protector with a new screw fitted with a nylon (or something like that) pad which will not mar the gouges when tightened.
You can see it in one of Bill's photos.
It's a worthwhile improvement.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> The upgrade replaces the rotating metal screw and spring steel protector with a new screw fitted with a nylon (or something like that) pad which will not mar the gouges when tightened.
> You can see it in one of Bill's photos.
> It's a worthwhile improvement.


*Post #44* shows a head-on view of the upgraded Varigrind and *post #45* shows a side view with a tool installed. It is a lot nicer than the original as 9K' says.


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