# Blunt/bad tools or bad wood?



## Henrygardner (Feb 17, 2015)

I am using green sycamore and all of a sudden the timber is starting to chip out, is this because the timber is poor quality/rotten or is it a sign of blunt tools?


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## jgilfor (Jan 25, 2013)

Must be the sharpness of your tools, or your tool presentation. Sycamore, green or otherwise, should turn cleanly unless it is heavily spalted, a crotch, or burl piece.


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## mako1 (Jan 25, 2014)

Could be a number of things .your presentation,rest height,speed,tool sharpness.Need more info to discuss this situation?Are you getting chips when roughing or what?What tool are you using to do what?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

A bigger problem will be when the wood starts to dry. Then it will crack and split all over it. You would be better off working with seasoned wood.


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## Henrygardner (Feb 17, 2015)

Using a roughing gouge at 850 rpm. Not trying to turn anything just turning a log down to a blank that I can then season. I think the bark may have blunted the tool. I'm getting quite a lot of chatter too which suggests the tool isnt cutting cleanly. I have a grinder arriving tomorrow so will sharpen my tools and see if it improves


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Not sure how you are cutting but I would never use a roughing gouge to turn a log or bowl, unless it's in spindle orientation. Are you scraping or rubbing the bevel? You could be pushing the tool too fast or presenting it to the wood wrong.


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## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

Let me qualify this by saying that I'm a relative newbie, but I've learned some things in just the past few weeks that have made all the difference in the world. 

It's all about riding the bevel so you can control the cut. Riding the bevel successfully is or can be highly dependent on toolrest height. If I were guessing, I'd guess that as your log got smaller, the presentation angle of the gouge changed and maybe you weren't riding the bevel as well as you were before. Of course, sharp tools make a big difference too.


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## Bonanza35 (Jan 20, 2011)

As stated earlier, it could be a number of things but 2 things jump out. First the use of a roughing gouge, as John stated, is probably not the best choice. Second is sharpening. Wait until you get your sharpening system set up and sharpen often, like before each piece and several times during each piece. Without a sharp tool, presentation, speed, rest height, etc. will be impossible to learn. When in doubt, sharpen.

Green sycamore is great wood to work with as long as it's not very punky. Many of us turn nothing but green wood and cracks aren't a major problem once you learn how to manage drying. And it's usually free so have fun and be careful.


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## Henrygardner (Feb 17, 2015)

By in spindle mode I assume you mean turning between two centres with the grain running from end to end which is how I am turning it- merely removing the bark and getting the log circular. Could you elaborate on the correct angle for the bevel? I have the tool rest set to the centre of the log


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## Smith Brother (Dec 9, 2012)

Go on YOUTUBE and watch.

Dale in Indy


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

When you buy a new tool, they generally haven't been sharpened adequately to cut wood. Since you don't have a grinder yet, that is a clue that the tool started out not really sharp enough and has progressed to being very dull. Here are a few general tips for beginner woodturners:


If you have to push the tool into the wood to get it to cut, that is a sure sign of a dull tool. The tool should be presented to the wood with feather light force.
If you are getting dust and chips rather than long streamers that means that the tool is dull and it might also mean that you are using it incorrectly to scrape the wood rather than slice the wood. Correct tool presentation is critical.
An old saying is absolutely true: "If you can see the edge, then you don't have an edge". A dull edge will reflect highlights along the edge in bright light. A sharp edge has near-zero width so it can't reflect light. Actually, the human eye can't discern details that subtend an angle less than one milliradian. At normal reading distance that translates into an edge that is razor sharp.
If the edge can't shave the hair on your arm then it is dull.
Don't run your finger along the edge to see if it is sharp.While that will definitely let you know the answer, just keep in mind that the tool is for cutting wood with the greatest of ease and your finger is a lot easier to slice than wood.
Be very careful when using a spindle roughing gouge. Keep the tool rest as close as possible to the wood and make bevel rubbing cuts. Always follow the *A B C* rule! (*A*nchor on the tool rest, put the *B*evel in contact with the wood so that it is not cutting, and finally gradually raise the back of the handle until the edge begins to *C*ut). If you aren't familiar with the ABC procedure, learn it before proceeding, especially with that tool which can be very unforgiving of mistakes.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Henrygardner said:


> By in spindle mode I assume you mean turning between two centres with the grain running from end to end which is how I am turning it- merely removing the bark and getting the log circular. Could you elaborate on the correct angle for the bevel? I have the tool rest set to the centre of the log


The toolrest needs to be above center. The exact height depends on the diameter of the piece of wood and having the tool handle in a comfortable position when cutting so that the bevel is making contact with the wood. It will take some experimenting to get it right and it will need to be readjusted periodically as the diameter of the piece gets smaller.

Turning tools get dull rather quickly so don't be surprised if it stops cutting. Be vigilant in watching that you are not using more than a few ounces of force to get the tool to cut.

I would like to encourage you to go to the *Introductions Forum* on Woodworking Talk and introduce yourself.


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## Henrygardner (Feb 17, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your advice, it has cleared a lot of things up, I will see how things go with sharper tools!


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> If the edge can't shave the hair on your arm then it is dull.


 On a skew, or a regular wood chisel, or a plane iron, or a chef's knife, or on woodcarving tools, well yeah you betcha.

But on a roughing gouge?
You can't be serious.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

9thousandfeet said:


> ... But on a roughing gouge?
> You can't be serious.


Well, of course I am absolutely serious or else I wouldn't have stated it. So, why would you think that a roughing gouge gets a bye when it comes to being sharp? A sharp roughing gouge can produce a surface as clean as that produced by a sharp skew. We shouldn't take the word "roughing" in the name "spindle roughing gouge" too literally. It's suitable for tasks where a regular spindle gouge wouldn't be the best choice, but it is able to do much more than getting a piece of spindle stock round.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> We shouldn't take the word "roughing" in the name "spindle roughing gouge" too literally. It's suitable for tasks where a regular spindle gouge wouldn't be the best choice, but it is able to do much more than getting a piece of spindle stock round.


 I wasn't taking the term "roughing" in the least literally and I'm completely aware that such a gouge can do a lot more than just knock the bark or square corners off a turning blank.

Using a literal shaving edge as the litmus test for sharpness in a short-beveled turning gouge is just unnecessarily obsessive. 
A light and delicate pass over even a 60 grit wheel is almost always entirely adequate. A quick touch with a diamond hone in extraordinarily difficult circumstances might be in order, but that's about it.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

I sharpen my tools on a Tormek grinder. The only ones I check for shaving are my skews. They're the only ones I run on the leather wheel to hone them a bit. I'll have to check some of my other tools to see if they will shave. The Tormek wheels are pretty fine grit, I think 1000 if I remember right and they do leave a pretty good edge.
Mike Hawkins


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

I also use a Tormek. Some folks are just jealous that they can't get their tools sharp. :yes: (just kidding ... sort of)

Sometimes I use the leather honing wheel and sometimes I don't, but generally I sharpen all spindle turning tools as sharp as I can get them.

Back to the question about getting a log round and turning the bark off ... there really isn't a good reason to do that. It looks pretty, but otherwise is the wrong solution to prepping wood. What would make more sense is to cut it down the middle to get rid of the pith. Leaving the pith in will most often lead to some splitting and besides we don't want a spindle with the pith running down the center. Using a riving knife is a very good way to get some quality spindle stock because it will have parallel grain.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> Sometimes I use the leather honing wheel and sometimes I don't, but generally I sharpen all spindle turning tools as sharp as I can get them.


I turn for a living nowadays, so knowing the difference between "sharp enough" and "sharp as possible" really matters a lot.

I can get a "sharp enough" edge straight from an 80 grit blue wheel pretty fast, even on a swept-back bowl gouge. 
I _could_ spend more time putting on an edge that's literally as sharp as the steel will take, and have done so in the past just to see what happens, but since such an edge will last only a few seconds in most woods anyway, and since the surface produced during that few seconds is only very marginally superior to one produced by "sharp enough", that game is not worth the candle for me.

I just don't want to encourage beginners to think they're doing something wrong if they can't shave with a bowl or roughing gouge, that's all.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

I've been experimenting with sharpening on higher grit wheels or belts. An edge created with a 320 grit belt holds that edge longer than an edge created with an 80 grit. At this stage it's pretty subjective but I can definitly tell a difference. I have been doing this experiment with my spindle roughing gouge ground at a 35 degree angle. It takes just as long to establish that edge as long as you don't let it get really dull. I believe the same is true with the Tormek which is finer but I haven't been using that machine for this purpose. 
for roughing through Bark I prefer a more blunt edge of aboutt 45 degrees and I do a push cut straight into the wood going through the bark at an angle rather than the traditional running it back and forth down the length of the tool rest. This does 2 things. First it doesn't peel the bark and cause it to detach from the cambium layer and hit you in the hand or face. Second, I think it's faster. I push in with the gouge tilted at an angle. I do this 4 or 5 times cutting all the way through the bark or square edges of a piece. Then I slide it along the rest to clean up the slight undulations and cutting down to a consistent depth. You can cut an inch deep or more using this process and it goes amazingly fast. Here's my video on using the spindle roughing gouge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8YYYYA-6jQ


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I sharpen my turning tools on a 120 grit grinding wheel. They will not shave, but they make nice long curly shavings. Maybe on the last pass, but I don't think it is worth the effort to hone them any other time.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Another thing.

The surface we grind to touch up the tool during use is only half the "edge". The condition of the inside of the flute is the other half.
My experience with lathe tools is that all of them, even the most expensive and/or the ones most often raved about in turning forums, need a fair bit of work on the insides of the flute to clean up the machining marks from the manufacturing process.
Some tool makers leave a better surface than others in this area, but I've yet to buy a tool from any source where this was not the case. 
I work the flute patiently with appropriately-shaped and progressively finer slipstones until all the marks from the production process are gone. I normally finish with a 1000 grit waterstone slip, which leaves a very nice blemish-free surface. Not quite the mirror finish one would strive to put on the back of a plane iron or wood-chisel, but much much better than the "plowed field" finish that comes from the factory.

With the flute cleaned up in this fashion, just light passes on a clean 80 grit wheel on the outside bevel give an edge that's not a literal "shaving" edge, but it's plenty sharp for all but the most demanding situations, and it's sure sharp enough to give a nasty cut on the fingers if one is not paying attention. 

Which brings me to another issue; I often see photos of tool racks that people make where all the tools are sticking out of various contraptions (PVC pipe and the like) with the handle down in the rack and the business-end of the tool uppermost, presumably for ease of identification. 
I can just imagine what a bloody mess my hands would be if I stored my tools like that. I do have my most-used tools in a rack for sure, but with the cutting edge down in the rack where it can't bite me. The same tool is always in the same slot, so ID is not a problem.


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## Henrygardner (Feb 17, 2015)

Got my grinder today and sharpened my roughing gouge. What a difference! SO much better, before it was producing chips now it is producing long streamers


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Henrygardner said:


> Got my grinder today and sharpened my roughing gouge. What a difference! SO much better, before it was producing chips now it is producing long streamers


 Looks like you're headed in the right direction, Henry.
Anytime you run into a situation where the behavior of the tool or the lathe or anything at all suddenly starts to change, or if what you're doing is giving you a rough ride, stop and take a careful look around to see what's going on. 
Turning should not involve exerting much force on the tools at all. It's much more about tool presentation and finesse and a light touch than anything else.

Listen to the sounds the tool makes as it cuts too. It's not uncommon for a change in sound to be the first clue that something is not quite as it should be.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

I keep my tools tip up. The tips are higher than my shoulder, and against a wall. You would have to try to cut yourself.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

hwebb99 said:


> You would have to try to cut yourself.


 I'd find a way, I just know I would. :yes:


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

I'll have to agree with 9K ft about having tools stored with the pointy ends up waving around in the air especially if they are situated so that you could accidentally come in contact with an edge. I had to make a trip to the ER because of that very thing.i reached across some sharp tools and the back side of my hand very gently brushed across a new 3/4" Henry Taylor Kryo bowl gouge. There was a nice peeling cut as the tool "rode the bevel" along one of the bones in my hand. The ER doc said that I did a very nice job of filleting my hand. The funny thing is that the cut was so clean and smooth that I didn't feel a thing at the time. An hour later, it was hurting like the dickens.

About milling roughness in the flute of gouges, Thompson tools seem to be the worst. The best that I have found is Sorby ... their bowl gouges have a very smooth flute. The flute in crown tools also seems to be very good.


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## john lucas (Sep 18, 2007)

Never have polished my flutes. I just touch the inside edge with a cone shaped diamond hone and it cleans it up enough that I accidentally cut my finger just brushing across the edge at a demo once. They had to find me a bandaid because it wouldn't stop bleeding.


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> About milling roughness in the flute of gouges, Thompson tools seem to be the worst. The best that I have found is Sorby ... their bowl gouges have a very smooth flute. The flute in crown tools also seems to be very good.


 I have four Thompson's and like them a lot, but the flutes were indeed rough. Rough enough that I wrote to him about it years ago. Never heard back though.

The worst I've ever seen so far was a P&N "Supa" 5/8 bowl gouge, but once cleaned up it became one of my all-time favorite tools. It's down to less than a two inch flute now, but still cuts beautifully. P&N are quite good bang for the buck actually, their gouges often have at least 1" more flute than many others and for less money too. They take and hold an edge just fine.

Don't have any Sorbys or Crowns. The 2 Taylors I have needed work, but nothing like as much as the Thompson's or the P&N's.

A few years ago one could buy Taylors unhandled, but I don't see them in the Craft Supply catalog that way anymore. I dislike having no choice about buying the handle. 
Anyone know if Taylor/Hamlet/Sorby/Crown tools are sold unhandled anywhere nowadays? 
I would have thought there would be a heavier demand for unhandled tools than handled ones when the primary customers are woodturners, but apparently not.


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## Bill Boehme (Feb 9, 2014)

Would I be exaggerating if I said that Doug is more than a bit opinionated about his tools and how to sharpen and use them?


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## 9thousandfeet (Dec 28, 2014)

Bill Boehme said:


> Would I be exaggerating if I said that Doug is more than a bit opinionated about his tools and how to sharpen and use them?


 You're flirting with online apostasy there, Bill.
Heresy even.
:laughing:


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