# BAFFLED by "not straight" cuts



## DethWshBkr (Feb 27, 2012)

I have done a fair amount of woodworking in high school (15 years ago or so), and am building some furniture now. Bought myself a bunch of used equipment, and some new equipment.

I for the life of me however, CANNOT get a "straight" cut out of my table saw or jointer.
I have rough cut soft maple, that I planed down to 7/8" thick, and then rough cut length with my circular saw. I had been giving it a rough width cut on my table saw, then joining the edge. Run it through the table saw again, and finish it to width.
I am trying to now glue together two pieces, and my edges are NOT flat. I put the wood together, and the center has a 1/16"-1/8" gap, and the ends touch. 

I can run it through my little jointer (which is a benchtop unfortunately), but the bowing never gets better. These pieces are about 48" long. My infeed/outfeed tables are only 13" long each, but I am VERY careful about it tightly on the tables. Even if I run it through the table saw, I cannot get it to "flatten up". My fence is not much more than 1/64" from being perfectly parallel to the blade as well.

I have NEVER come across something like this, but I am baffled. I guess my straight edge could be bent, but that does not explain how I put two "finished" edges together and there is a gap for 90-95% of the length of the board.
Any thoughts on this??

Thanks everyone!


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

A small gap in the middle is not the worst thing in the world.

Sounds to me like your out-feed table on the jointer is a little low, or it is not parallel with the infeed table. The out feed should be at the same height as the jointer knives when they are at top dead center. The infeed should be lower than that by the depth of your cut. The two tables should not line up but must be perfectly parallel.

If that's not it then check how straight your table saw fence is and make sure it is parallel with the saw blade.

Bret


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## ACP (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree, 1/8" is a little big, but 1/16th or smaller in the middle isn't bad for edge gluing. Gaps on the ends would not be ok though. Little benchtop jointers can work good but they can also be frusterating because of the small tables. If it were me, and you plan to do a lot of edge gluing, I'd look at getting a handplane. For those size boards you describe, an old Stanley #5 would suit you just fine. Sharpen it up and then clamp the boards you plan joining together face to face and edge joint the edges by hand with the plane. Any error will cancel out when you open them back up, like a book, and the edges should be matched. I know this doesn't fix the machinery issue, but I don't have an answer for you, it could be anything from machine issues to technique problems.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Bret is right*

Also let's talk straight rather than flat when referring to edges. Flat would apply to the surface of the board, not the edge.

Your jointer is small and the tables are too short for longer work. But there is a solution! :yes: You can straighten boards very nicely on the table saw using a jig. If you run a board against the fence with a curved edge, and rip the opposite side you will still have a curved edge and it's not safe. Yeah, maybe it will have a bit less curve but not much.

 

So, make a board straightening jig for the table saw like this:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/board-straightening-jig-table-saw-16999/ There are several ways to hold the board down, if you don't want to use the toggles. Slot in each end and down the sides for flush mounted bolts and wing nuts for a hold down will work. A buddy of mine uses 36 grit sandpaper and no hold downs for ripping heavy planks. There are other ways, just make certain the board dosn't shift while sawing. :yes: bill


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

You say that you are getting this bow on cuts with both the jointer and table saw? Is the bow always the same regardless of the wood used or the width of the cut? Or is it just this one batch of wood? Was the wood bowed before the cuts.

I cannot think of any way that a table saw would give a bowed cut. Maybe someone else on here can explain that.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I agree with Lola Ranch that the rear table sounds low or not parallel to the outfeed table. If the rear table is not adjustable you may have to adjust the knives. At the peak cutting position they should be level with the rear table. 

Now if the jointer is correct you can correct the bow in the middle by starting the cut in the center of the board, turn it around and do it again. What you end up doing is running it off the rear table and since you started in center of the board it cuts the ends only. If you had the opposite problem you start the cut with the end of the board on the rear table. That way your cutting on the middle of the board only.

Now the table saw, it sounds like the fence is not parallel with the top. To check it put the fence close to the groove in the top for the miter gauge and lock it down. Measure the distance from the fence to the groove at the front of the saw and back. It should be the same. If not there should be an adjustment on the fence to correct it. It sounds like the fence is farther in the back than the front.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*George, here's why*

The table saw fence is usually about 30" long on contractor saws, longer on cabinet saws. If you place a same sized curved board against the straight fence, you'll see a gap in the center if it's concave. However, don't place the convex side against the fence. :no: It will kick back when it shifts. Actually, don't place either edge against the fence, it won't work anyway.
For discussion, using the convex edge, it will follow the fence until the "touch point" moves off at the rear, now it's following the curve and you will get a curve on the opposite side. 
One thing I have done is add a long fence extension, 7 or 8ft, so the board can ride along it's entire length and stay against the fence. 

If there aren't a lot of boards to be done, a simple straight edge pinned to the board to ride the fence can be used. I would also use hot glue, but others may not trust it. It sticks like a "bear", but can be popped off when pried away. What ever you use, the straight board must be longer than the curved board you are trying to "fix". :yes: bill

Here's another cool jig:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/jointing-vs-table-saw-15789/


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Lola Ranch said:


> A small gap in the middle is not the worst thing in the world.
> 
> Sounds to me like your out-feed table on the jointer is a little low, or it is not parallel with the infeed table. The out feed should be at the same height as the jointer knives when they are at top dead center. The infeed should be lower than that by the depth of your cut. The two tables should not line up but must be perfectly parallel.
> 
> ...


+1. :yes: See that the knives are even with the outfeed table when at TDC. Hand pressure on the stock can affect the outcome. It should be mainly on the infeed table until the stock gets about half way onto the outfeed table, then a balanced pressure on the outfeed table, with minimal pressure on the infeed table. Basically a jointer setup is for whatever the knives are set up above the infeed table, what's remaining after machining is supported by the outfeed table.

As for the TS fence, check to see if the fence is straight. It should be also parallel to the blade. When checking it to the blade, First unplug saw, raise the blade all the way up, and measure to the same tooth at the front, and at the rear.










 







.


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## sawdustfactory (Jan 30, 2011)

Your problem may also come from your order of operation.
Joint 1 face flat. Joint 1 edge straight and square to your flat face.
You now have two reference surfaces. The flat face goes on the table saw with the flat edge against the fence. Cut to width. Plane to final thickness, again reference face down in the planer.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*edge jointing curved boards*

If your board is placed concave curve down and the jointer tables are short, you will repeat the curve. The touch point of the board on the outfed table will run out of table and then fall into the curved portion. This will repeat itself, rather than straighten the edge as you would like. 
In this case it's best to flip the board end for end after jointing in 1/3 or 1/4 of the way to remove as much of the curved portion as possible. Check after each complete pass visually and then finally with a known straight edge. Short tables, less than 4 ft overall, on a jointer are not useful for straightening or flattening longer boards. :no: bill


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

A lot of using a jointer is all about how you hold the work.
The admonishments you have gotten about setting the jointer up are all spot on, but you still gotta have the proper "english" when you hold the wood and pass it along. Or maybe the better way is to say it that you must avoid applying any "english" to the work as you pass it through the jointer. Yah I think that's better. 

The usual newbie way to use a jointer is to lean on everything. 
That's error. Don't lean on anything. Use only that minimum amount of force needed to keep the wood where you want it and move it along. 

If you take a bowed board to a TS the Rip Fence won't help you get a straight cut. The wood will follow its own bow through the cut. So if you have a jointed straight edge, place that against the rip fence.

In the spirit of learning the basics - - - get yourself a couple of halfway decent hand planes and learn to get a straight edge with them. 

The power tools are not for eliminating those skills or replacing them. They are merely extensions of the skills you learn with the hand tools that allow you to go much faster.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I can tilt the out feed table on my jointer so I can make a hollow joint, or the other way too.

Hollow joints are great for gluing up panels. Less clamps and when the wood acclimates to the environment it goes in and the panel shrinks up a little, the ends and the middle will still stay nice and tight.


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## STAR (Jan 1, 2008)

I will let others talk about the technical side. it looks like you have been given some good information to think about. ( Me too )

I also have a bench top jointer and decided to build and extension to the outfeed table. The plan was in a Shop Notes mag but was for a Lunch Box planer. Same principal though.

It helps a lot to steady the wood of a longer piece. Here is a photo of it. it has been used in this forum a few times already but for other reasons.


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Also let's talk straight rather than flat when referring to edges. Flat would apply to the surface of the board, not the edge.
> 
> Joint jointer is small and the tables are too short for longer work. But there is a solution! :yes: You can straighten boards very nicely on the table saw using a jig. If you run a board against the fence with a curved edge, and rip the opposite side you will still have a curved edge and it's not safe. Yeah, maybe it will have a bit less curve but not much.
> 
> ...


I agree with Bill about jointer being a wrong choice for edge-jointing. To me it is really funny: to use a tool ( a jointer in this case) with which everything depends on how you walk, push, etc -- is a radiculose nonsense; it defies the purpose of a good tool, especially a power tool. You want to have results that depend as little as possible on how you move or how you hold the board, or wiggle your butt...:yes:

To me the best edge jointing is done by table saw (same as Bill stated) -- BUT there is no necessarily a need in that long sled he is using. For all my purposes I was getting very good results with a regular 30" fence. 

6' boards are regular thing for me; in my last project I was joining 9' (nine feet) boards! Just arrange infeeding and outfeeding supports, and don't try to do your jointing in ONE SINGLE step!:no: This way, you can straighten up even a board with uneven edges (start with the concave edge sliding on the fense side) -- and alternate the edges. Now -- go last few steps by tiny increments, really just barely shaving the edge... No problems with gluing; the first project I did this way, is 12 years old; no glue-line got apart... I always check the result against the surface of my TS, till I see no gap; and of course, I check the boards against each other.

I also use a "glue-line" 1/8" thick blade from Freud; it gives you a mirror-like surface... (For that kind of operation, you don't want to use a thin blade...:no Also make sure you use a strong feather board in front of blade AND a good splitter behind it to push your board tightly to the fence. BTW, my TS was a standard Delta contractor saw (still have it...)


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

How is a jointer the wrong thing to edge join a board?

I don't think he was trying to straight line a board with a short bed jointer, more like cleaning up the saw cut.


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## Cliff (Feb 5, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> How is a jointer the wrong thing to edge join a board?


When I read his post, what I got from it was, that he is unhappy with the notion that one might have to develop certain skills to use a machine. It appears that he wants the machine to stand in for tradecraft and skill. Put in in the machine hit the go button and pull the finished work out the back of the machinery. 

Hey~!!


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

Cliff said:


> When I read his post, what I got from it was, that he is unhappy with the notion that one might have to develop certain skills to use a machine. It appears that he wants the machine to stand in for tradecraft and skill. Put in in the machine hit the go button and pull the finished work out the back of the machinery.
> 
> Hey~!!


Hey~!! you can do your work with a knife or even a stone ax, just develop the right skills -- people have done it; no need for a machine...:laughing:


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## AlWood (Apr 18, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> How is a jointer the wrong thing to edge join a board?
> 
> I don't think he was trying to straight line a board with a short bed jointer, more like cleaning up the saw cut.


Well, he was talking about not getting "straight cuts" (see the title of his post). Besides, if one uses the right TS blade (see my post above), there is no need to clean the saw cut.


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I can tilt the out feed table on my jointer so I can make a hollow joint, or the other way too.
> 
> Hollow joints are great for gluing up panels. Less clamps and when the wood acclimates to the environment it goes in and the panel shrinks up a little, the ends and the middle will still stay nice and tight.


It you lower the outfeed table below top dead center of the cutterhead, the jointer will produce a concave edge. Never adjust your tables out or parallel, nothing good will come of that, that I can think of.

Running edges across the long bed jointer is not a high skill operation. After the initial start just make sure the edge remains in contact with both the front and rear table through out the cut. May take a couple of passes but if your jointer is set up properly you should get a straight edge. Long boards will be more difficult the shorter the jointer. I would think a bench top model would handle 4-5 foot edges just fine. ?

Bret


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Lola Ranch said:


> It you lower the outfeed table below top dead center of the cutterhead, the jointer will produce a concave edge. Never adjust your tables out or parallel, nothing good will come of that, that I can think of.
> 
> Running edges across the long bed jointer is not a high skill operation. After the initial start just make sure the edge remains in contact with both the front and rear table through out the cut. May take a couple of passes but if your jointer is set up properly you should get a straight edge. Long boards will be more difficult the shorter the jointer. I would think a bench top model would handle 4-5 foot edges just fine. ?
> 
> Bret


My out feed side is about .002 lower then the knives. That is the best set up I have tried, I don't like it dead even with the knives.

The lever that tilts my out feed table up an down is a great feature to have. All most all large jointers had this feature. It is to make a hollow joint. This is handy for making gluing up large panels. There will be a tiny gap in the middle of each board. This lets you use less clamps and when that glued up panel shrinks up, instead of having the ends of the panel open up a little, everything will stay nice and tight when heating and cooling seasons change in the house they are in.

I won't get into tables that tilt left and right, right now.

Yeah, he needs to figure out how to get one straight edge before sending it through the table saw.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

DethWsh - Lot of very experienced input coming your way. It would be good to hear from you. I agree that the first thing is to ensure your jointer is set up properly. Those little guys can be tricky and may not hold settings as well as bigger ones. Here are some videos that may be helpful





 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2983839096587014177&hl=en


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

I would agree that the out-feed would be better slightly lower than slightly higher. 

I have no expertise regarding tilting the tables out of parallel. Maybe a boat-right would use those settings to produce twists and bows?

Bret


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## DethWshBkr (Feb 27, 2012)

I did spend some time last night working on the little joiner. 

I put a good square on the outfeed table, clamped it in place, and verified the height to the drum. I am just grazing the square. 

On the infeed table, I did attempt to verify parallel. 
I did adjust the rear mounts until I was able to get it by eyeball what I thought was pretty parallel. Took my gap tools (for valve and spark plug gapping) and got a .012 in the rear, and a .008 in the front. That is .004 of an inch out of parallel.
I did attempt to run it through, it did not help, but with the bowing in ti already, I would not expect it to clean it up. I will need to do a fresh piece here to see if I am getting flat this time.


In the mean time, I honed up an old small Stanley hand plane and started scraping away at the two edges I have already. I'm really close to being glue-able.


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