# Bending 1/4" thick oak



## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

One project in a woodworking magazine I have is an entry table with a curved front. Their process was to laminate veneer to make the curved piece.

I can get 1/4" thick oak and poplar pretty easily locally. Would that be thin enough to bend, or do I need something thinner?

I am guessing I need something thinner ... ?


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Or should I get something like this?

http://www.rockler.com/veneer-hobby-packs-12-square-feet


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Can you describe the curve better...radius? A picture maybe?








 







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## MNsawyergp (Jan 31, 2012)

It depends on the radius of your bend and the type of press or clamp system you will use. If you are planning to bend into a small radius, 1/8" strips will work much better.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't have the article with me as I am at work right now, but it's a bow-front hall table with a hidden drawer on the side. The curved front apron is around 24-30" long. The bow is not anything radical, the middle of the curve maybe 3 or 4"" out, something like a 30" radius. It is the sort of thing that I could give the bowed part more or less of a curve if I wanted.

This looks pretty much like it. The difference is that this one has drawers in the front, where as for the one I am wanting to do, the front apron is one continuous piece, and the drawer is hidden on one side.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Chris Curl said:


> I don't have the article with me as I am at work right now, but it's a bow-front hall table with a hidden drawer on the side. The curved front apron is around 24-30" long. The bow is not anything radical, the middle of the curve maybe 3 or 4"" out, something like a 30" radius. It is the sort of thing that I could give the bowed part more or less of a curve if I wanted.
> 
> This looks pretty much like it. The difference is that this one has drawers in the front, where as for the one I am wanting to do, the front apron is one continuous piece, and the drawer is hidden on one side.


For a curve like that I would use ⅛" thick laminations, or cut from solid stock.


















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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks Cabinetman ... one more question ... how about laminating 1/4" lauan? Would that take to bending more readily? I can get that locally, and it's not very expensive.

Over lunch, I went to the HD and tried it with a 1/4" x 3 1/2" x 48" wide piece of oak. It DID bend 3", but of course, it wanted to straighten out pretty badly, so I don't know how well glue would hold it ... ?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

You could steam bend, but then you have to make a steamer.

If you use C'man suggestion of lamination or steam bending, you need to consider spring back, where some of the curvature is lost when you remove the clamps.

The thinner the laminations, the less the spring back.

If you cut from solid stock, no spring back issue.

If you laminate or steam bend, I would make the curved front pieces first and then modify any dimensions to accommodate the spring back.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Chris Curl said:


> Thanks Cabinetman ... one more question ... how about laminating 1/4" lauan? Would that take to bending more readily? I can get that locally, and it's not very expensive.
> 
> Over lunch, I went to the HD and tried it with a 1/4" x 3 1/2" x 48" wide piece of oak. It DID bend 3", but of course, it wanted to straighten out pretty badly, so I don't know how well glue would hold it ... ?


I ain't changing my mind. I'm suggesting ⅛", that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


















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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks folks. I think I have some of the lauan sitting in a corner now, so I think I'll give it a whirl just to see what happens.

Cabinetman, I am 100% certain that you know alot more about this stuff than I do, and your advice is not being ignored, but since it won't cost me anything to play with it, then nothing lost (expect maybe a scrap piece of lauan).


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

This solid wood edging is 3/8" x 1-1/2" Red oak. I steamed it, clamped it overnight, and glued it up the following morning. :smile:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

mdntrdr said:


> This solid wood edging is 3/8" x 1-1/2" Red oak. I steamed it, clamped it overnight, and glued it up the following morning. :smile:


How long did you steam it? And tell me about your steamer please.


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## mdntrdr (Dec 22, 2009)

Chris Curl said:


> How long did you steam it? And tell me about your steamer please.


20 min. in a PVC steam box with a cheapo steam generator. :smile:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

This looks like a cheap and easy way to build a steamer for bending wood ...

http://www.geocities.com/bawanewsletter/steambox/steambox.html


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## Kahlua (Dec 6, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> I don't have the article with me as I am at work right now, but it's a bow-front hall table with a hidden drawer on the side. The curved front apron is around 24-30" long. The bow is not anything radical, the middle of the curve maybe 3 or 4"" out, something like a 30" radius. It is the sort of thing that I could give the bowed part more or less of a curve if I wanted.
> 
> This looks pretty much like it. The difference is that this one has drawers in the front, where as for the one I am wanting to do, the front apron is one continuous piece, and the drawer is hidden on one side.


I did a much more serious almost 180* bend on a highchair tray with slightly smaller than 1/4 stock and it worked just fine. You just need lots of clamps... lots


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Kahlua said:


> I did a much more serious almost 180* bend on a highchair tray with slightly smaller than 1/4 stock and it worked just fine. You just need lots of clamps... lots


Did you steam bend it?


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

I've not had much luck with steam bending but form bent glue laminating is something I've done with many many projects with success. 

The bend in the OP is fairly shallow and could be accomplished with 1/4" thick lams. Cabinetman's suggestion of 1/8" would certainly work well also but it is a lot easier to make and glue up the 1/4" pieces. Much of the 1/8" pieces do not survive the trip through the planer whereas the 1/4" holds up much better. 

You will have to make your form at a tighter radius than the finished product due to springback which will be greater than if done with 1/8" lams. 

Bret

1/4" used here








3/32" used here


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Lola Ranch said:


> I've not had much luck with steam bending but form bent glue laminating is something I've done with many many projects with success.


Me too. Glue lams IMO are more predictable.



Lola Ranch said:


> The bend in the OP is fairly shallow and could be accomplished with 1/4" thick lams. Cabinetman's suggestion of 1/8" would certainly work well also but it is a lot easier to make and glue up the 1/4" pieces. Much of the 1/8" pieces do not survive the trip through the planer whereas the 1/4" holds up much better.
> 
> You will have to make your form at a tighter radius than the finished product due to springback which will be greater than if done with 1/8" lams.


For this particular instance, I recommended ⅛" because of the length, and height of the lams. The shorter the lengths, the thinner the lams should be. It's just a matter of evaluating. I don't run lams that thin through the jointer. My saw cut is very good. Jointers can leave small chattering. If need be, I will just block sand the lams, and get very smooth faces. 

I made a curved 22' footbridge over a swan pond, and the lams for the stringers were ¾" x 4"...in Red Oak. They varied in lengths up to 16'.


















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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

As a kid, I helped my Dad steam bend oak keels for boats.
Galvanized downspout tube tied to a step ladder.
Ordinary water stem kettle at the bottom (K.I.S.S.)
Rag in the top as a steam gate.
He laid them on hot, that stuff was floppy like rubber.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

i think i can do this steam bending thing!


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## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

For that front with a 4 inch rail you could make the curve with bent laminations without any steam. 
If the wood is straight grained and you make a good form, you could use the 1/4 inch wood but a lot of clamps will be needed. Start in the center and work to both ends. I would probably cut and plane the laminations a bit thinner maybe 3/16 or so. Fresh good glue that does NOT creep is important. Unibond 
or possible TB III. Avoid simple vinyl glue that has a lot of creep.
Once it's made into the table, the mortices to the legs and attachment to the top will also keep it stable. Cutting the tenons is a bit tricky but very doable.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Of course you can. Just try to begin with air dried wood, not kiln-dried wood.
The heat in the steam heats the bound water on the noncellulosic compounds around the cellulose in the wood cell walls. The heat plasticizes/softens that stuff and the wood bends easily to take a "set" in a new form.
Anybody who says otherwise has the biology all wrong.

My brother is the "arrow-shaft" guy in a group who make replica stone age hunting equipment.
Using a 1kW interior hot-air car warmer, I have watched him tie a simple overhand knot in a 18" arrow shaft that was crappy. Green wood, cut that morning.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

QUESTION: Can you steam-bend 3/8" plywood too?


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## Longknife (Oct 25, 2010)

Chris Curl said:


> This looks like a cheap and easy way to build a steamer for bending wood ...
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/bawanewsletter/steambox/steambox.html


If you want to play around with steam bending you don't have to build the Ultimate Steam Box. Just build a square wooden box and connect it to a cheap wall paper steamer. Works great.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Nope*



Chris Curl said:


> QUESTION: Can you steam-bend 3/8" plywood too?


You will de-laminate the plys. There is too much glue rather than open cellulose and it's been kiln dried, so very little if any moisture remaining.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Plywood, if steamed will delaminate due to the heat and moisture. If the plywood was laminated with a phenol-formaldehyde glue, the glue joint would not be affected. What would cause ply destruction would be bending the plies, which would change the proximity of the plies to each other, not allowing a slip angle. 

Kerfing the backside would allow the plywood to bend, and for a furniture piece, with an exposed edge, that edge could be veneered.


















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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

i suppose I could just pick a piece of plywood that is already warped ... heck, seems like 1/2 of them at HD are anyway!

re kerfing ... the back side would be hidden anyway as it would be under the table top.

i am guessing that a cold vapor humidifier wouldn't provide the right type of moisture, right?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Chris Curl said:


> Does it have to be hot steam, or can I use one of those cool mist humidifiers?


If you're going to steam bend wood, it has to be hot steam.








 





 
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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> If you're going to steam bend wood, it has to be hot steam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is only hot steam, it is invisible and very hot, what you actually see is what has cooled and is now water vapour.

An example of this is if you carelessly remove the lid from a boiling kettle, your hand will be burned before you see any "steam".


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

FrankC said:


> There is only hot steam...


My mistake. For your benefit I should have worded my answer as steam (which is hot).








 





 
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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> My mistake. For your benefit I should have worded my answer as steam (which is hot).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't correcting you, just pointing something out that some may not be aware of and your quote was deleted by OP.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Chris Curl said:


> i am guessing that a cold vapor humidifier wouldn't provide the right type of moisture, right?


As the other replies stated, you need heat to make the cells in the wood flexible.

I have not tried steam bending, but from what I have read, the wood will bend easily is it has more moisture, so air dried wood is preferred over kiln dried for steam bending.

The Videos forum has a thread I posted with a link to some Irish Craftsman, one of which makes wooden boats. He soaks the pieces he needs to steam bend in his bog.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f30/hands-irish-craft-films-40846/


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

It's the heat in the steam that transfers, via the water in the wood, to the cell wall chemicals that will soften and become plastic from the heating. That's how steam bending works.

If you can find one, look for videos to watch Pacific Northwest natives (Haida in particular) make kerf-bent boxes. I've seen them with 24" wide sides. Steam one plank, bend 3 corners and sew #4 together with alder pegs and spruce root fiber. Next, make a water-tight bottom. Humbling.
In recent years, they made many dozens of them for their Repatriation Project.
I can cut & carve a roll-over & undercut corner in a 6" x 5/4 western red cedar board in less than 20 minutes. Despite watching it done, I don't seem to have the patience to steam the corners until they bend so very easily. Then there are the cross-shaped boxes with 8 corners and the feast dishes with the wide-angled, sloping sides.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

Joining this thread a bit late, I read somewhere about 'hot pipe' bending. Has anyone tried it ?


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

tonycan said:


> Joining this thread a bit late, I read somewhere about 'hot pipe' bending. Has anyone tried it ?


This may mean using PVC or other material pipe to hold the wood, with steam being fed in one end. It is still steam bending.

The wood needs to be heated for bending. Steam is the best method since it provides heat and moisture, both contribute to a successful bend of the wood.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's not hot pipe bending*

This is:


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## Lola Ranch (Mar 22, 2010)

For argument's sake I'd opine that a form laminated curve is stronger, longer lasting, quicker to build and easier than steam bending. But as I said, I haven't done much steam bending.

Bret


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## Paul W Gillespie (Jul 7, 2011)

Now this is some extreme steam bending in my book. Long, but cool, video. The steaming comes at about the 7 minute mark.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Paul W Gillespie said:


> Now this is some extreme steam bending in my book. Long, but cool, video. The steaming comes at about the 7 minute mark.


That's about the coolest woodworking project I've seen on You Tube!
I don't know if he "invented" the concept or just perfected it, but he's done it more than a few time, by the looks of the fantastic jigs and fixture he used.. There is some substantial shop equipment also, BUT no safety guards and no dust masks used when he was sanding, just a DC near the source.

I just searched his name and found this: http://www.mikejarvi.com/

The shop is a woodworker's dream, but at the very end he sets the piece down in what looks like a showroom or a museum, or a gallery.
Very informative and inspirational video, thanks, Paul! :yes:


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

The impressive Jarvi bench video was first posted back in 2010.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f30/jarvi-bench-19339/


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Steam bending has been used to make wooden boat parts for centuries. No biggie.


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## w1pers (Nov 27, 2013)

Sounds like fun. Worth a try.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Find an old-fashioned steam kettle, 10' of galvanized downspout pipe, a rag and a 8' step ladder.
Invite me over. We will be done this thing in far less time than al the talk so far.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for your input. I'm good now. I won't be doing anything before Christmas on this, but I have from then until New Year's off. I will post back later with updates or questions.


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