# HELP with pocket screws



## F3RR3T (Jul 3, 2008)

im having some trouble with pocket screw.

no matter how hard i clamp it (k clamps) the piece im screwing the pocket screw into shifts 1/32- 1/16 of a inch making ledge :thumbdown:

am i missing something?

im using the kreg pocket hole jig from lowes


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Use the clutch on your drill...draw it in just enough to see the glue ooz out!!! "Takes a light touch" Rick


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## F3RR3T (Jul 3, 2008)

pianoman said:


> Use the clutch on your drill...draw it in just enough to see the glue ooz out!!! "Takes a light touch" Rick


i have the clutch on 1


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## top (Mar 24, 2008)

sound like out of sq to me use a clamp where the pic meet


 "THE SHOP OF TOP"


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

are you using the face clamp that comes with the Jig? Also go to blowes and you can buy bigger clamps with the big faces. I second the "not square" point to check it. thirdly re check the depth u r drilling might not be quite deep enuf and you r cross threading at the joint and puling one pc out of alignment. What wood type and what screws?


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## F3RR3T (Jul 3, 2008)

its mdf
rather large pieces where a face clamp cannot be used. i build subwoofer boxes and just switched to this method of joints


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

*pocket holes screws*

I use the kreg jig (master set) all the time. I don't seem to have problems with the wood lining up regardless of wood specie. I use the kreg screws. If you are properly clamping with their clamp, you shouldn't get any drift of the wood. Go over the setup procedure of the jig once again to make sure your depth adjustment is correct and give it another shot.:icon_smile:
Mike Hawkins


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## F3RR3T (Jul 3, 2008)

firehawkmph said:


> I use the kreg jig (master set) all the time. I don't seem to have problems with the wood lining up regardless of wood specie. I use the kreg screws. If you are properly clamping with their clamp, you shouldn't get any drift of the wood. Go over the setup procedure of the jig once again to make sure your depth adjustment is correct and give it another shot.:icon_smile:
> Mike Hawkins


i cant use there clamp piece is 2 big like 18x30 inches


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

If you have any air equipment...try dry pinning and then Kreg screw it


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Try pinning the joint and then Kreg screwing


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> Try pinning the joint and then Kreg screwing


What is 'pinning' the joint? 

I too have a problem with this jig. I'm not a big fan of it. Although I've had it a couple of years, I have just recently had the opportunity to actually get it out and use it. 

I understand what F3RR3T is saying about the peice being too big to clamp. I have had this problem before (and now as we speak). What I did was to use pipe clamps on the peices and that helped out a lot. I just clamped the crap out of them. I keeps them in place while I screw them.

My problem is that the screws split the hell out of the wood. I am making face frames and the screws are coming too close to the edge and splits the edge of the wood right out. And NO there is NO way to adjust this (at least not where I have found). I've tried everything I know to do. If I could find a drill bit long enough, I could pre-drill and that would help out a lot, but I don't know where I can find a longer bit small enough to use. 

F3RR3T: Not trying to step on your post here. I just thought since you raised the question, I could get in on the help your going to get and maybe someone could help me at the same time. If that's not ok, kick me in the butt and send me home. :yes:


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

Not being sure what version of the jig you have, I can't offer any specifics but I can say that I have never had the wood split when using pocket hole screws and I use a gadzoodle of them in both soft wood and hard wood. One of the primary adjustments is to set the stop collar on the drill properly for the thickness of wood you are drilling. Secondly, the jig should be adjusted for your wood thickness also. The premise is that the hole is drilled in such a way as to have the screw exit the drilled element and enter the second element at their centers. I am assuming that you are drilling the ends of your rails (horizontal elements) so that you are drilling in line with the grain and screwing into the stiles so that your screws are biting into the cross grain.

Ed


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

To address the original question, I have always had a touch of movement when assembling large elements with the pocket hole system. I allow for it by holding the piece back about 1/32 from it's planned final resting place and then just walk it in with the driver. By the way, don't hessitate to use your impact driver with pocket screws. It will work great. If you have trouble gauging how much to allow for movement, set clamps on the piece you are screwing into to establish your outside edge. K-bodies or pipe clamps should work fine for this. You may find that you will need to shim the face of the clamp to hold a true flush. Masking tape or index cards should work. Just experiment until you find the process that works for you.

Ed


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

*pocket screws continued*

I am not sure what you guys are doing to have the movement you are talking about. I have a couple of kregs different clamps, one being an oversize one that reaches pretty far in. If I can get a clamp on it, I get absolutely no slippage. I also have not had a problem with the wood splitting. Be careful what screws you use with what woods. I know it may sound dumb, but fine thread for hard wood, coarse thread for the soft wood. I use a lot of these in oak, ash, hard maple, hard as a rock hickory, furniture grade plywood, and whatever else I can find a use for. Kreg makes a nice video that explains the tool and its many uses. I have two kreg set, the original and the newer master set that came out a few years ago. It is one of my favorite tools to use, and it never ceases to amaze me. :thumbsup:
Mike Hawkins


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## top (Mar 24, 2008)

you have two are three type of screws make sure that you are useing the right one's on h/s wood ,might stop the wood splitting:thumbup1:


* "THE SHOP OF TOP"*


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## edp (May 25, 2007)

firehawkmph said:


> I am not sure what you guys are doing to have the movement you are talking about. I have a couple of kregs different clamps, one being an oversize one that reaches pretty far in. If I can get a clamp on it, I get absolutely no slippage.


The slippage is encountered when joining elements at 90 degrees to each other. Not edge to edge like a face frame joint. Sure, it can be countered by clamping prior to fastening but I chose not to. It is simple to allow for the movement.

I also have several versions of the Kreg system as well as the Foreman semi-auto.

Ed


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Each of us have our own way of doing woodwork, and use methods that we get exposed to either by word or print. Some of these methods may prove out in using them that there are better ways. For my preference, I don't use pocket screws for many reasons, some of which are made obvious by our posters. 

I will say there are traditional joining/fastening methods that work more predictably than pocket screws. I can't offer a cure for this dilemma, as this particular question proves out to be one of the recurring drawbacks in using them. There are some facets of joinery that may benefit from an angular direction of attachment. Before there was this craze for a jig and special screws to perform this, I used just a conventional method of alignment and fastening when it was necessary. 

I am just throwing in my two pennies worth as my opinion.


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## ebrowers (Jun 27, 2008)

*Kreg jig*

I have used pocket hole joinery both at home and when I was in the working world (retired now). We had the pro equipment where I worked (cabinet shop) I too use the Kreg pocket hole drilling jig. At first I had a problem with the wood splitting out but I remedied that situation by drilling holes in the bottom of the jig in line with the jig holes. I saves having to use a step bit all the time as they are expensive and can break rather easily. Using the correct length screws and having the stop collar set correctly will help in eliminating split-out too. See the picture below for how to drill the jig:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Ed, I'd like to address you first:

Ok, as far as I know I have the latest version. I have only had it about 1 1/2 to 2 years. Got it for Christmas, but not sure which year.

Second, as far as the slippage goes, it IS from the edge joining as well as the other. That is why the clamps won't work. They aren't long enough to reach. The other slippage comes from not being able to clamp the face frame TO the cabinet. I am making the face frames and attaching them to the cabinet one piece at a time. Not as you would construct the frame and then put the whole thing to the cabinet. I've tried to put a frame together and then install it to the cabinet, and for Me, that doesn't seem to work as well as putting one piece at a time on. If the cabinet is too large for me to handle, I have to build it to the wall and then I'm not able to pipe clamp the face frame to the cabinet to keep it from moving around.

I know all about the type of screws and so on. I did have to go from the #8 to the #7 and am still having problems with spliting the wood. If I go any smaller, I will just twist the screw off. I've got the clutch set and all that. I have everything set as it is supposed to be. I even did things I thought of just in case it would work. Personally I like the idea of the jig, if I could just get it to work for me. 

The one thing I might be able to discribe to you guys is this:

When I drill into the side to attach the face frame, and then I screw into the face, it is at such an angle that it is coming out the side of the face frame. I'm going into 3/4" stock from 3/4" stock. I'm keeping the face frame flush with the outside of the cabinet and that makes it too close to the edge and therefore splits out the edge of the face frame.

I have tried to adjust the stop and I can't go any more shallow because then the screw won't go into the frame far enough to grip and hold. 

Hopefully I have made enough sense to you guys that you understand what I'm saying and trying to do. Maybe with a little help, I can figure this thing out.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

ebrowers said:


> I have used pocket hole joinery both at home and when I was in the working world (retired now). We had the pro equipment where I worked (cabinet shop) I too use the Kreg pocket hole drilling jig. At first I had a problem with the wood splitting out but I remedied that situation by drilling holes in the bottom of the jig in line with the jig holes. I saves having to use a step bit all the time as they are expensive and can break rather easily. Using the correct length screws and having the stop collar set correctly will help in eliminating split-out too. See the picture below for how to drill the jig:


 
I am having a stupid attack. I don't understand this at all.


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## crafter1956 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Pocket holes*

*I have been using the kreg master jig set now for about 2 months, built several projects with it, really had good luck & I really like the pocket hole system, really builds nice doors & face frames, & very nice tables.*


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Kreg screwing, or least the idea has been around for a very long time...Kreg , just came up with a nifty portable fixture/jig to introduce to the general public. To use the KREG JIG...you need the reduce tip drill bit that has a collar for setting the depth of drilling. The jig that I have needed to be fixed to a piece of 3/4 ply about 12"s x 16"s. Included with the set-up were the step bit. two support wings, the work piece clamp and spacer blocks...also the collar for the bit. The spacer blocks are for Kreging thicker boards. Note: when drilling the board the screw rides in...the bit should not protrude the bottom...but just leave a dimple that can be knocked off with your thumb nail or sanded off. The suggested screw is 1 and 5/8th"s long with coars or fine threads and a quad head. When screwing... set the drill speed to low and use the clutch...I now, have a Craftsman 18v bad. drill...I set the clutch at 12 to 16 of possable 22 being the hightest setting. I buy screws in 50lb boxes. And have never had the problems listed here! Rick


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> Kreg screwing, or least the idea has been around for a very long time...Kreg , just came up with a nifty portable fixture/jig to introduce to the general public. To use the KREG JIG...you need the reduce tip drill bit that has a collar for setting the depth of drilling. The jig that I have needed to be fixed to a piece of 3/4 ply about 12"s x 16"s. Included with the set-up were the step bit. two support wings, the work piece clamp and spacer blocks...also the collar for the bit. The spacer blocks are for Kreging thicker boards. Note: when drilling the board the screw rides in...the bit should not protrude the bottom...but just leave a dimple that can be knocked off with your thumb nail or sanded off. The suggested screw is 1 and 5/8th"s long with coars or fine threads and a quad head. When screwing... set the drill speed to low and use the clutch...I now, have a Craftsman 18v bad. drill...I set the clutch at 12 to 16 of possable 22 being the hightest setting. I buy screws in 50lb boxes. And have never had the problems listed here! Rick


The fixed base isn't used when drilling for face frames. With mine came the following: one support wing and no spacer blocks. One step drill bit. One short square drive bit as well as one long square drive bit. One clamp. And of course the guide and base etc. If you drill far enough to leave a dimple, you've drilled too far. The screw that the instruction manual calls for is 1 1/4". That is for 3/4" to 3/4". To the best of my knowledge, they don't make a 1 5/8" pan head screw. And according to the way you suggest to drill it and screw it, the screw would be waaay tooo long and blow right out the front of the wood. You can't drill that far into the stock and use that long of a screw and not have it come out the front. Even if you didn't drill that far, it would still come out the front because the screw is too long for that application. :yes:

The model # I have is the K3MS.


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## BobbyfromHouston (Jul 4, 2008)

*recall*

I know they recalled some of the bits because they were not machined properly. Kreg was giving out new bits that had the right depth from the point to the larger diameter of the bit.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

BobbyfromHouston said:


> I know they recalled some of the bits because they were not machined properly. Kreg was giving out new bits that had the right depth from the point to the larger diameter of the bit.


When was this? I don't think that I have a problem with the bit, but along with everything else, who knows? Of course that wouldn't have anything to do with the screw spliting out the wood. As I said earlier, if I could find a long bit, I could pre-drill. I don't think these screws drill like they say they do. I haven't seen it anyway. If they did drill like they are made to do, I don't think I would have the problem of spliting.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Sorry I think I was wrong about the length of the screw...1 and 1/4" is right!


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

woodworks, I think you said you got the jig, etc. at Lowes...

Is it, in fact, the Kreg brand and Kreg screws?

Not a wanna-bee brand?

It's funny, I have never seen any demos performed mention the 1/32 slippage problem...

I have seen a special clamp that goes into an adjacent Pocket Hole while screwing another...

I have not used the stuff... but, I'm very close to buying a K3 Master pkg. ... eBay has some Free Shipping deals.


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## User3489 (Dec 6, 2007)

*????????????????*

Just showing my ignorance here. I have never heard the pocket screw use or system.
Could some one fill me in on the uses of pocket screws. I feel humble and dumb. Dale :blink::huh:


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

tom-3 said:


> Just showing my ignorance here. I have never heard the pocket screw use or system.
> Could some one fill me in on the uses of pocket screws. I feel humble and dumb. Dale :blink::huh:


Here are some links that may give you an idea of what they are...

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011183032.pdf

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=28013

http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/index.php


http://www.kregtool.com/information_center/index.php


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## skymaster (Oct 30, 2006)

FR3: Firstly MDF is a very poor material to use pocket screws with, way way too soft, it will blowout like you have just because it is mdf.
Second; are you trying to keep pockets INSIDE the box instead of outside where they are easier to get at?
Third: by keeping em outside they DO MAKE CLAMPS JUST FOR THIS
The are called RAC clamps; Right Angle Clamps for pockets. One leg is a 3/8 dia long pin to fit INSIDE the pocket and the other is the flat wide clamping face. With pockets out all you do is place the pins into 2 pockets clamp em tight, screw the other pockets then take em off and put screws in them.
Unless there is an acoustic reason for MDf plywood is way better to use, MDO ply gives a paint ready,super smooth face.
Yes you can get RAC's at Blowes


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## crafter1956 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Kreg.*

*Just to you all who have not tried pocket hole joinery, I have been using it now for about 3 months, it really is a great system, I have built several bookcases, end tables, night stands, & many other pieces, it really is a good way to go. I have the Kreg K3 master set- with the right angle clamp, I have not had one screw split out the wood yet, I am using oak & hickory, I have built several doors with it for cabinets, & other shelves, it really makes good looking doors, it makes fast & really strong joints. Let me know when some of you give it a try & let me know how you like it. Also good items to have also are the kreg dvds, the one on tables is really good, they have several ones available.*


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

*face frames*

Woodworks,
I have always assembled my faceframes first and then lined it up on the cabinet box, which I use 3/4" furniture grade plywood, and then fastened the faceframe to the box with pocket screws. I have drilled the pocket screw holes on the inside of the box, and sometimes the outside of the box, depending on if the side of the cabinet is going to show when installed. I have not had any splitting either way. I normally use bar clamps to hold the face frame in position. I don't seem to have any movement. I think you have to be very careful not to overtighten the screws. Don't rely on clutch settings. I use a ryobi right angle drill which has no adjustable clutch. I use a very light trigger finger and ease up as the screw begins to seat, just letting it seat and I stop there. I also have the kreg clamp which is designed for clamping 90 degree corners. It has one jaw that fits in the pocket hole and the other clamps the two pieces together. It is made to do the hole next to the one you are clamping. You might also want to check to see if the Kreg rep ever comes to your area for a trade show or tool show. He comes to our area twice a year for the Harville Hardware tool sale. He is very good at demoing the tools usage and can answer questions such as yours and probably be able to tell you what to do to remedy the problems you are having. Good luck, don't give up, it is a fun tool.
Mike Hawkins:detective:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> woodworks, I think you said you got the jig, etc. at Lowes...
> 
> Is it, in fact, the Kreg brand and Kreg screws?
> 
> ...


 
No, I bought mine at Rockler. It and the screws are kreg.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

firehawkmph

I have done it both ways. For me, I like doing it one piece at a time. Other then that, I am doing it the same way you are. When I clamp it, I don't have any movement either. I don't rely on the clutch alone. I have been doing this for well over 30 yrs. Not using the jig, just the woodworking. :yes:

Let's get past the clamping for now. My biggest problem is with the screws spliting the wood. When I hold the face frame flush with the outside of the cabinet and put in the screw, it is coming to within a 1/16 of an inch to the outside of the face frame. That is causing the wood to split. While the screw is not coming through, it is spliting the wood. I am already using a #7 screw. And yes it is fine thread. And no I haven't tried the #6 because as many times as I've twisted off the #7's, I can just imagine what the #6's would do. And yes, they will twist off even before the frame is sucked up to the cabinet in those cases where I can't use a clamp.

For all you guys that say this jig works fine for you, it would be nice to have someone close to me to prove it. As for my own experience, I can't say the same. Now I will admitt that I haven't used this on any other wood species. This is my first experience using the jig. And as luck would have it, I am using hickory. But, as far as I can see, I can't see where it would make any difference if I were using any other hardwood. It might be different in softwood. 

F3RR3T:
I hope you are getting the help you need here. I really hope I haven't stepped on your toes. I'm still hopping someone will figure this out for me. I seem to have hit a dead end. :wallbash:
Maybe somebody would like to do a sample of some hardwood and see if they can duplicate what I am describing. 

I am using 3/4" plywood as the box cabinet. I am planing my hickory down to 3/4" and using that as the face frame. I am keeping the outside edge flush with the outside of the cabinet. The screw is at such an angle that it is coming super close to the outside edge and that is what is causing the wood to split. 

I know I am repeating myself, but I am hoping that maybe if I say it enough times, someone will see something I am missing and be able to point it out to me.

Thank you everyone that is trying to help both me and F3RR3T. I'm sure he appreciates it as much as I do. :thumbsup:


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

As I've said, I'm not using the Kreg jig *yet,* BUT, it sounds like your screws are TOO LONG. It doesn't seem right to me for them to be coming within 1/16th inch from other side.

Have you tried shorter screws.. shorter by 1/4"? Those screws would end up close to the middle... Am I thinking wrong?

*EDIT: Either that or the hole you're drilling is too deep.*
(unedit)

If someone could check this aspect, it may be the answer...


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Woodworks, I do use the fixed Kreg Jig for my face frames and cabinet sides!! It`s portable...like I said...it`s mounted on a small sheet of ply. Rick


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> Woodworks, I do use the fixed Kreg Jig for my face frames and cabinet sides!! It`s portable...like I said...it`s mounted on a small sheet of ply. Rick


I have the same setup as you do. My base is 13x26. I just choose not to use it on the cabinet sides. I just use the guide with the clamp. On this particular cabinet, the sides are 26" wide so it isn't as easy to manuver around. Using the guide with the clamp is much easier. In the end, it all comes out the exact same way (except that my wood splits and yours doesn't). 

*Joe Lyddon*

*I am doing it the EXACT way the instructions SAY to do it! *That is what is so frustrating to me. :confused1: 

If I go with a shorter screw, it won't grip the wood. The same thing if I shorten the pocket. I really have tried everything that has been suggested here. That is why I am having such a hard time with understanding how these guys are coming out with such good results. 

I have made a cabinet that the frame is made from 7/8" stock. Also it is 1/16" past flush. That seems to work better, but I am not able to finish all of my stock at 7/8". I usually have to finish it down to 3/4". Plus, I can't run it all past flush. That cabinet was made to be in line with a row of cabinets so they will be screwed to one another and you won't see the frame sticking past the side. This cabinet and a few others will be in a position where I need to keep the frames flush with the sides. Plus, the jig is supposed to make it so I can do it that way. 

So if anyone has any other suggestions, please feel free to post them (unless of course they are the ones that tell me where to go).
I know most of you guys like this jig, and I can see why. What I don't see is why I'm not getting the same results you guys are. 

And again, thank you one and all for all the help. I appreciate the time you are putting into trying to figure this out with me.
Jay


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

woodworks said:


> I have the same setup as you do. My base is 13x26. I just choose not to use it on the cabinet sides. I just use the guide with the clamp. On this particular cabinet, the sides are 26" wide so it isn't as easy to manuver around. Using the guide with the clamp is much easier. In the end, it all comes out the exact same way (except that my wood splits and yours doesn't).
> 
> *Joe Lyddon*
> 
> ...


*You need one on one Instruction!

IMHO*

Good Luck!
:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> *You need one on one Instruction!*
> 
> *IMHO*
> 
> ...


Why, don't you think I know how to read instructions??? If I do as the manual says and I don't get the same results that the manual says I will, is that because I am not reading the manual correctly? 
Or maybe you are just volunteering to come give me the instructions I need??? After all, you did say and I quote "I have never used one yet".

And there is no reason to get hostile with me.

*IMHO*

All others, please don't take this post as a front or hostility against anyone! I am and will always be grateful for the people that do what they can to help. I have received help on many occassions and am looking forward to continuing to do so. I have nothing but respect for the guys in here that put themselves out there to help when they don't have to. 

I have a problem and according to the manual, and to the 99% of the guys that have responded, say I shouldn't have. That is why I am in here looking for the help I need. I have done my best to describe exactly what I have done so that you can maybe see what I am doing wrong, IF I am doing something wrong. Again, according to the manual, I am doing everything right. So either everyone is lying about getting the results they claim, or I am doing something not quite right. I personally believe the latter. Not everyone can lie that good. :no:

And I STILL look forward to having you guys helping me figure this out. And just for the record, if there were anyone near me, I would be more then willing to get with them and converse about this and anything else.

Respectfully
Jay


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## lucas.j.dunton (Feb 27, 2008)

just a suggestion, but if my screws were coming to close to the frame's face and splitting it, I'd put a washer or 2 on the screw to back it out a 16th or 2 that way you don't lose too much bite on your screw by going to a smaller size


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

lucas.j.dunton said:


> just a suggestion, but if my screws were coming to close to the frame's face and splitting it, I'd put a washer or 2 on the screw to back it out a 16th or 2 that way you don't lose too much bite on your screw by going to a smaller size


The same thing can be accomplished by adjusting the stop. I've done that and it's not so much as the screw coming too close to the face, but rather too close to the outside edge. The angle is such that it is coming out that way. Unfortunitly, that can't be changed. 

I've read all of what you guys have said. After reading it all, I know most of you like the jig, so something has to be good about it. I'm not giving up. I am still going to try and use it and get it figured out. Guys, believe it or not, you have been a big help to me. If nothing else, it shows me that I am doing it correctly. I just have to figure out a way to fine tune it. 

And that brings me again to having to say this: Thank you for putting yourselves out there and helping. I DO appreciate it. Even if I don't agree with you, it is good to know you have something to teach me and I AM willing to learn. Just because we butt heads, doesn't mean your right and I'm wrong. :laughing: You know what I really mean.

Respectfully
Jay


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

woodworks said:


> Why, don't you think I know how to read instructions??? If I do as the manual says and I don't get the same results that the manual says I will, is that because I am not reading the manual correctly?
> Or maybe you are just volunteering to come give me the instructions I need??? After all, you did say and I quote "I have never used one yet".
> 
> And there is no reason to get hostile with me.
> ...


Hey, I'm NOT getting hostile with you.

You are the one that started yelling at me.. (bold print).

I'm just trying to help...

Obviously, you have tried everything the manual says and everything that has been said here.

To me, there is only one thing left, "one on one instruction" by someone who doesn't have a problem with it.

If you don't like that comment, so be it... I'm not the one with the problem & looking for help.  :thumbsup: :wallbash:


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## lucas.j.dunton (Feb 27, 2008)

i think i see your problem, have you tried to put a 16th or 8th in shim on the bottom i would think that that would move the screw farther from the edge, a cedar shingle could change the angle too, a few degrees should make all the difference i have not tried this personally (though i do have and use the jig) just brainstorming here i think if you play around with different thickness shims and lengths of screws you can find a combo that will work for you


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Hey, I'm NOT getting hostile with you.
> 
> You are the one that started yelling at me.. (bold print).
> 
> ...


Bold print does NOT mean yelling. Bold print means to emphasize something. 
Yelling is to HAVE ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. So as you can see, I was NOT yelling at you. It seems that you felt the need to be a bit hostile when you decided to make your printing in larger then necessary letters.

And I can tell by your wording in this last post that your being hostile. So in order to STOP this line of conversation with YOU, I will no longer be a party to your post's. So go right ahead and get in your last word, because I've said mine to you. 

Take care and have a nice whatever you want to have. :thumbsup::wallbash:


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

woodworks said:


> Bold print does NOT mean yelling. Bold print means to emphasize something.
> Yelling is to HAVE ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. So as you can see, I was NOT yelling at you. It seems that you felt the need to be a bit hostile when you decided to make your printing in larger then necessary letters.
> 
> And I can tell by your wording in this last post that your being hostile. So in order to STOP this line of conversation with YOU, I will no longer be a party to your post's. So go right ahead and get in your last word, because I've said mine to you.
> ...


Sorry, I did not intend to be hostile... I started to just EMPHASIZE what I had arrived at.

Hey, there is no reason for me to be 'hostile' with you... right?

I still think you need a "one on one" get together with someone who is using the jig(s) successfully. Maybe your jig s/b recalled... or your manual is bad... I don't know... BUT, if a person looked at what you're doing, I'll bet the problem would be solved within 10 mins.

Do what you want... I am not being hostile with you... nor do I think I have been... Sorry...

Good Luck.

:yes:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

*Can't we all just get along.....*

Just trying to lighten things up. 

Woodworks,
I was thinking about you today. I was finishing up a kitchen full of kraftmaid cabinets when I had to pull out my kreg jig. We were cutting and rebuilding an oven cabinet to hold a single oven with a microwave above it. I used the jig to fasten a new rail in and also to fasten some 3/4 plywood braces for a shelf for the microwave. Again it worked well. Could you possibly post some pictures of your jig, and some of the holes you have drilled along with a piece fastened to another, even if its a couple of scraps? I'm in Ohio. If you were a little closer, I'd invite you over to see if we couldn't straighten that jig out. Maybe we can see something in the pics that might not look right. :wallbash:
Mike Hawkins


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I get dizzy reading these posts. I don't assemble FF's, cabinets, or mount FF's with pocket screws...geez...I must be doing something wrong.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Woodworks, I feel your frustration...It`s starting to sound like the jig is out of wack. Maybe a bad mold that snuck by. I guess I have not seen all the screws that can be used on the Kreg Jig. But, you are right...the ones I use are 1 and 1/4"s long. Is there a way someone can check the angle to see if it is truly molded properly? Do some of the screws have different size heads? Some have what looks like a molded on washer. If you are using Hickory...I don`t think the screw would be sinking past the seat. The tubes that the bit rides in hasn`t sliped has it? I purposely set my depth so I can see a dimple in the bottom of the predrilled piece and am not having the problem you`re having. I`m sure you are using fine threaded screws. One other thing...does the screw wobble in the predrilled hole? I think that if it does...it could grab and drive at the wrong angle. Hope you find the problem! Rick


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

Woodworks...

Just shooting in the dark for a possible quick solution...

Have you called Kreg Customer Service and talked to a Technical Support person, described your problem, what you have tried, etc. etc.?

If not, might not hurt giving it a try...

I had a problem with a Canon digital camera... was almost ready to buy a new camera... Just for kicks, I called Canon... Turned out they had recalled my camera (which I missed) and offered to fix the problem (I was having) without ANY charge to me at all... including shipping and everything... I felt like they had sent a limo to pick up my camera and fix it!

The same thing could happen to you... Think about it...


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

firehawkmph said:


> Just trying to lighten things up.
> 
> Woodworks,
> I was thinking about you today. I was finishing up a kitchen full of kraftmaid cabinets when I had to pull out my kreg jig. We were cutting and rebuilding an oven cabinet to hold a single oven with a microwave above it. I used the jig to fasten a new rail in and also to fasten some 3/4 plywood braces for a shelf for the microwave. Again it worked well. Could you possibly post some pictures of your jig, and some of the holes you have drilled along with a piece fastened to another, even if its a couple of scraps? I'm in Ohio. If you were a little closer, I'd invite you over to see if we couldn't straighten that jig out. Maybe we can see something in the pics that might not look right. :wallbash:
> Mike Hawkins


Ahhh, your so sweet for thinking about me. Now get that image out yo head buddy!!! I don't do that!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I will try and post some pic's. Just give me some time to do so. 
My brother in law (when he was alive) lived in Cleveland. Not sure where, was only there a couple of times many many years ago.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> I get dizzy reading these posts. I don't assemble FF's, cabinets, or mount FF's with pocket screws...geez...I must be doing something wrong.


Your outdated, what's wrong with you, get with the times. :yes:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> Woodworks, I feel your frustration...It`s starting to sound like the jig is out of wack. Maybe a bad mold that snuck by. I guess I have not seen all the screws that can be used on the Kreg Jig. But, you are right...the ones I use are 1 and 1/4"s long. Is there a way someone can check the angle to see if it is truly molded properly? Do some of the screws have different size heads? Some have what looks like a molded on washer. If you are using Hickory...I don`t think the screw would be sinking past the seat. The tubes that the bit rides in hasn`t sliped has it? I purposely set my depth so I can see a dimple in the bottom of the predrilled piece and am not having the problem you`re having. I`m sure you are using fine threaded screws. One other thing...does the screw wobble in the predrilled hole? I think that if it does...it could grab and drive at the wrong angle. Hope you find the problem! Rick


I don't know how it could be checked. As far as the dimple, I don't quite understand that unless you are using a shorter screw then it calls for. My understanding would be if your drilling that deep, it would make the screw come out that much farther on the other side. No, the tubes haven't slipped. The screws are the washer head screws. They are not drilling deeper then the seat of the pocket hole. No, there is no wabble. Yes, I'm using fine thread screws. 

You said you hope I find the problem soon. I have found the problem...It's not doing what it's supposed to. I need to find the solution, thank you very much. :yes: :wallbash:

Keep the suggestions coming. Who knows, you just might stumble upon it.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> Woodworks...
> 
> Just shooting in the dark for a possible quick solution...
> 
> ...


Yes I've called them. Didn't get to talk with anyone. I also sent an email to their tech support and never received a response. I am NOT happy with their support department. But now that you mention it, I just may do that again and see what happens this time.

I would like to take the time here to once again say THANK YOU to ALL of you that have been trying to figure this out with me. :notworthy::thumbup: 
I do appreciate it!!! It makes me feel better about asking for help when you guys are so willing to spend the time to help. Joe...apology accepted. Forgiven & forgotten.

I will try as was suggested and see if I can post some pic's. Also will try and contact tech support again and see if i can get them to help.

Jay


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodworks said:


> Your outdated, what's wrong with you, get with the times. :yes:



Hey, you might be right. Maybe I should get with one of the experts here.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Hey, you might be right. Maybe I should get with one of the experts here.


Well I can guarantee you one thing for certain...I am NOT one of those experts. :no: :laughing:


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## John in Tennessee (Jun 11, 2008)

*Another newbie with a question*

I’m getting ready to get the Kreg system. On the Kreg video they are drilling into one board only unless it’s a repair or whatnot. I’m in the process of building a stand for my Delta belt/disk sander. When I built my work bench I found out why I got a C in shop. It’s strong but looks like crap. I’m really trying hard to make this look like something I would put in the den. On other videos they are doing corner drilling. My question is do you stop drilling the pocket hole BEFORE you put your boards together in a corner configuration?


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok, here is where I am with the tech support guy.

He said that there seems to be a problem with hickory. The problem is more so with that wood then any other. Someone in here mentioned that they use hickory and have had no problems with it, so I don't know.

The other suggestion was to go from a washer head, TO a pan head screw and to also go to a size #6.
That concerns me because I am already snapping screws off. And YES I am using the clutch and watching carefully how I am screwing (in more ways then one).

So in the meantime, I am going to try and post these photo's I have taken. I have NO idea how they will look or what they will show.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok guys, I hope this will tell you something.


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree ...you should use the no. 6 screw witha fine thread. The grain configuration in the photo is showing why it blew out. The wood is hard and brittle. Try using a little fyness. While installing the screw...seat it in stages. Or just don`t use the Jig on Hickory. This is all I`m going to say on this subject...accept, I think the jig is fine! Good Luck Rick Sorry...one more thing...maybe the wood was dried too fast.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> I agree ...you should use the no. 6 screw witha fine thread. The grain configuration in the photo is showing why it blew out. The wood is hard and brittle. Try using a little fyness. While installing the screw...seat it in stages. Or just don`t use the Jig on Hickory. This is all I`m going to say on this subject...accept, I think the jig is fine! Good Luck Rick Sorry...one more thing...maybe the wood was dried too fast.


The wood was kiln dried ok to the best of MY knowledge. The thing is, I've had the wood for almost 8 or 9 months sitting in an inclosed truck. I then have had it in my basement for app 3 months. I've just started using it. Since I don't have a meter, I can't say what the moister content is. 

I can understand your comment as to the grain configruation. The only problem with that is, it will split no matter where I screw it along the edge. If you look at the other photo, you will see I was succesful in making the raised panel side and screwing it ok. That wasn't on the edge, so the screws went in just fine. 
I can't necessarly disagree about the dryness. 
I can try what you said about setting the screw in steps. I've tried going in and out, but maybe not enough. At this point, I'm willing to try anything. 
I'm going to order some #6 screws and maybe one of those clamps that are for the face frames. 

If you don't mind me asking, why the comment, "this is all I'm going to say on the subject"?
Jay


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

This just *"came"* to me...

If this was the problem with any ole screwing into the Hickory (Pocket holes NOT mentioned), *it would be solved by predrilling a pilot hole, right?*

So, here the solution should be just that simple... drill a pilot hole! :laughing:

BUT, you'd better have just the right size bit... and you'd better be at the proper angle... and, of course, watch the depth.

I would play with some scrap (that you've made)... I would try to use the Kreg drilling guide, if possible; if not possible, I'd make a drilling jig by just drilling a block of scrap at the right angle / bit.

The pilot would have to be for just end part of the screw.

Think it would work?

If that hole was too big, the threads will break smooth...

If it still breaksout, find another wood to work with. :laughing: :no:


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## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

I don`t mind you asking Jay, I just think it has been covered. Woodworking should be soothing to the soul. Endever to persavere. Rick


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> This just *"came"* to me...
> 
> If this was the problem with any ole screwing into the Hickory (Pocket holes NOT mentioned), *it would be solved by predrilling a pilot hole, right?*
> 
> ...


With our earlier 'business' please don't take offense at this. Don't you think I've tried that???

In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew if I could aquire a longer bit so I could pre-drill. In order to do that, I have to secure the frame to the cabinet, start the screws, take them all back out and then proceed to drill a pilot hole. I have tried to do this. The problem is that that is really, really way too time consuming as well with me not being able to clamp the frame to the cabinet, I can't get it aligned correctly.

I agree with you 100% that that would solve the problem. I am willing to drill a pilot hole, IF, I can do it WITHOUT making it more of a problem. And I have even tried to think as you suggested, how to make a guide to do it with. Again, don't take offense, but I have already tried everything you have suggested. It just goes to show you, we really DO think alike. Maybe my age and experience makes me a little faster on the thinking of it, but you really are on the right track. Your whole post is right on the money. It will be hard to do and I had better be right on with it. 
Now JOE...Show me up on this one and figure out where I can get a long drill bit so I can clamp the frame and then drill the pilot hole. I really do not want to have to try and sercure then start the screws to mark the placement of them and then take the frame off and drill the pilot hole then put it all back together and then screw it together. I agree with you that it has to be at the proper angle. That is why I need to leave the frame on and drill through the pocket hole. 

So don't stop now Joe. Keeps those thoughts 'coming' to you and then to me.


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

*this thread is still ticking.......*

Jay,
Your jig looks just like the one I have. The only thing I can think of is you got a hold of some toughass hickory. More so than normal. I have on occasion come upon various pieces of wood that seem like they are case hardened or somewhat petrified when you go to cut, fasten, or nail them. If you have to start predrilling the piece of wood the screw is sinking in, you might as well not use the jig. Kind of defeats the purpose. The only other suggestion you may want to try if you haven't already is to use some beeswax on the screw threads. I do this when I am screwing into exotics when making peppermills. Makes a noticable difference. Try the jig on some other specie of wood and see if the problem goes away. I am going to see if I have any more hickory scraps in the shop to try again. The last time I used it was for 1 x 3 window casing to match some shaker style hickory cabinets on a job. I fastened the four sides of the casing together on three windows and three sides door casing and it worked well for that. Keep up posted,
Mike Hawkins:blink:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

pianoman said:


> I don`t mind you asking Jay, I just think it has been covered. Woodworking should be soothing to the soul. Endever to persavere. Rick


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 
Oh, my passion for this has gone waaaay down since I started this project. The only problem is I have to stick with it and get it finished. I know I'll get through this. And I have to say once again, you guys have ALL been a lot of help. 

I do agree with you. This has gone on a bit too long. 

HEY JOE! I forgot to mention, I have also thought of using a different wood type. And you may just be right about that one too. The problem is I have gone too far with the hickory to change now. I think if we were a bit closer we would be seeing each other. We really do think on the same wave track. 

So with all that being said, I will order the #6 screws and see how well they do. If that fails, I will drill through the frame and put in plugs to cover the screws (beat you on that one joe). :laughing:

Now I do have one other concern...F3RR3T...Did you get the help you needed???

I am so sorry I took this over without really meaning to. I do apologize for doing that. It was NOT intentional. The only thing I can say is that there has come out of this a whole S^%$t load of information. I really hope you can use it. If I have offended you in any way, please accept my apology.

Respectfully
Jay


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

firehawkmph said:


> Jay,
> Your jig looks just like the one I have. The only thing I can think of is you got a hold of some toughass hickory. More so than normal. I have on occasion come upon various pieces of wood that seem like they are case hardened or somewhat petrified when you go to cut, fasten, or nail them. If you have to start predrilling the piece of wood the screw is sinking in, you might as well not use the jig. Kind of defeats the purpose. The only other suggestion you may want to try if you haven't already is to use some beeswax on the screw threads. I do this when I am screwing into exotics when making peppermills. Makes a noticable difference. Try the jig on some other specie of wood and see if the problem goes away. I am going to see if I have any more hickory scraps in the shop to try again. The last time I used it was for 1 x 3 window casing to match some shaker style hickory cabinets on a job. I fastened the four sides of the casing together on three windows and three sides door casing and it worked well for that. Keep up posted,
> Mike Hawkins:blink:


Yes, I had the dish soap liquid right there. Actually I would still use the jig, I just wouldn't have a need for the screws. If I pre-drill, there isn't any reason to waste the screws on this project.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Jay

I consulted with someone I trust explicitly (cabinetman), and he told me to tell you to use just glue and clamps. If you're making a FF that's too long for your clamps, he said to wedge them. If you use just glue and clamps on the FF's to the cabinet, he said you'll play heck ever getting them off.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok, I'm done! 

I'll still wait on Joe (or anyone else) to see if he can come up with a nice long bit that will reach through the pocket and into the frame. 

I will let you all know how it turned out. I will post some pictures if anyone is interested when I get it all done. 

AND AGAIN!!! GUYS THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I know it may not seem like it, but you ALL have been a really BIG help to me. Even if it was to just let off a little steam. I cannot thank you enough. I tip my imagenary hat to ALL of you. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: A job well done by one and all.

Respectfully
Jay


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

woodworks said:


> With our earlier 'business' please don't take offense at this. Don't you think I've tried that???
> 
> In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew if I could aquire a longer bit so I could pre-drill. In order to do that, I have to secure the frame to the cabinet, start the screws, take them all back out and then proceed to drill a pilot hole. I have tried to do this. The problem is that that is really, really way too time consuming as well with me not being able to clamp the frame to the cabinet, I can't get it aligned correctly.
> 
> ...


OK, here are some more thoughts... (& probably my last... as I am drained)...

I would place the drilled piece onto a mating piece (to get proper spacing & alignment, then I'd use an ice pick down the hole(s) to mark the spots for the pilot holes. I'd measure the drilled angle and transfer that angle to drilling a pilot sized hole into the future jig, probably some 3/4 scrap, then stick the ice pick into the drilled hickory again marking a piece of scrap for alignment spacing from the edge... Then stick the ice pick through the jig holes so the hit the marks just marked... draw a line across the jig and cut it off on the line.

Now, to use the jig, just align it to the workpiece, clamp and drill the pilot with a normal bit of the right size & depth.

Place workpieces together and screw the pocket screws...

Fine tune as required...

If that can't be made to work satisfactorily, I'd say the Kreg jig will not work on the Hickory you're trying to use... forget it & use some other joint... Use the Kreg jig for NON Hickory applications... or sell it if you don't want it! (I might buy it from you... if the price was right... :laughing: )

Good luck.


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

lol
I'm sure you would Joe. 
Could I maybe use an awl instead of an ice pick??? 
You may be on to something there. I didn't really think of an awl. I may not need the jig because I'm not bad with drilling the hole pretty much where and at the angle I need it to be. But I will try the awl and see if it will slide through and mark the frame. If not, I will get an ice pick. 

Thanks Joe


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

cabinetman said:


> Jay
> 
> I consulted with someone I trust explicitly (cabinetman), and he told me to tell you to use just glue and clamps. If you're making a FF that's too long for your clamps, he said to wedge them. If you use just glue and clamps on the FF's to the cabinet, he said you'll play heck ever getting them off.


The face frames are not too long to be clamped. The cabinet is too big, bulky and heavy for me to move once I get it made. So what I am having to do is make it piece by piece to the wall. I have it attached to the wall and now I need to install the face frame and that is why I can't clamp it with bar clamps. Nowhere to put them. So that means I can't just glue because I have no way to clamp. I will have to drill screw and plug from the front. Not a problem, but that isn't why I bought the jig in the first place. 

The earlier post just my be right, the wood just may be too dry and that makes it that much harder. Even if I do have to plug it, at this stage of the game I'm just glad to get it done with. And I'm good enough at it that it won't show that much.

And please tell your expert friend thank you for me. I appreciate him taking the time to help me out. 

Jay


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

You could do what Norm does... Spread the glue then pop them with some brads *to hold it while the glue sets.* :laughing:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Lyddon said:


> You could do what Norm does... Spread the glue then pop them with some brads *to hold it while the glue sets.* :laughing:


I've never seen Norm do that on a face frame. All I get to see of him anymore are re-runs. I saw the episode where he ran a groove all the way around the cabinet and face frame and then inserted biscuts and then glued. I tried to do that and that won't happen again. Which of course I will have to admitt that I don't have a nice open shop like he does either. 

It's too bad I can't drill from the outside of the cabinet. That would put the screw in the oppisite direction. The problem with that is that it will be seen. Even with plugs it wouldn't look good. 

I ordered the #6 screws and the edge clamp. It will take a week to get here. In the meantime I will go back to making the smaller cabinets where I am able to leave the frame past the edge a bit. 

The whole purpose of getting and using the pocket jig was so that I wouldn't have to use glue and if in the future I ever had a problem, I could take the frame off and fix it. At this point I'm just so frustrated with it, I don't really care anymore. I need to get it done. My poor wife has really been the one to suffer with no cabinets for several months. Bless her heart, not one complaint.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodworks said:


> The face frames are not too long to be clamped. The cabinet is too big, bulky and heavy for me to move once I get it made. So what I am having to do is make it piece by piece to the wall. I have it attached to the wall and now I need to install the face frame and that is why I can't clamp it with bar clamps. Nowhere to put them. So that means I can't just glue because I have no way to clamp. I will have to drill screw and plug from the front. Not a problem, but that isn't why I bought the jig in the first place.
> 
> Jay



I read this response a few times and will give my opinion, you may or may not like. If you have to make a cabinet that big and bulky, build it the correct way and get help installing it. I'm trying to imagine building a wall cabinet or base cabinet to the wall piece by piece. That just doesn't make sense. 

IMO, the layout for cabinets should include planning for the entire project. A cabinets life or how well it holds up, stays square, may depend on realistic sizes. Granted you might save by not having as many ends, or the sizes may work out better from sheet goods, but good woodworking skills come from smart decisions. 

You've heard the sayings about "Building a boat in the basement", or "Painting yourself into a corner". I can't tell you what to do, but forums should be a basis for discussion to benefit by. But, as you're finding out if you do "Paint yourself into a corner", forums will advise you how to become a better jumper.:yes:


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## woodworks (Feb 12, 2008)

Cabinetman, 
You are way off base. Frist, I don't have your kind of money to hire someone to help me. Second, I don't have the kind of friends that are willing to come help me just for the fun of it. And any friends that I do have that are like that, live too far away for me to ask them to make that trip. And I wouldn't put that question to them. Third, I didn't paint myself anywhere, I HATE! to paint. This is the cabinet that the refridgerator will be in. My layout of my shop is in my basement and I can't get big items out. Even though I have big doors, a cabinet that size will not fit through them. I plan just fine. I have the layout of everything. I cut everything to size, I brought it upstairs and assembled it. I fastened the back and side together down stairs, brought it up and had to fasten it to the wall. I was not going to fasten the raised panel side, shelves and then drag it accross my new floor I just installed. I then installed the raised panel side of the cabinet along with the top and shelf. Now I am in the process of installing the face frame and doors. One side of this cabinet is solid 3/4" hickory raised panel. The back and side is from 3/4" birch plywood. Yes, I already KNOW 3/4" is overkill. At the time of abtaining the materials, THAT was my ONLY option. As I said, I don't have your money. The deal was too good to pass up. Or not have cabinets. I'm really glad you have never been in a position to have to make a decision like that.
Since you really don't know the whole story, you really shouldn't act as though you do. I've been doing this work for 30+ years. I already know it isn't the ideal way of doing things. I may not have the experience or expertise you think you do, but I do it the BEST way I know how. As far as making sense??? Your not the one that needs to understand it. I asked for help on a particular subject. IMO, keep your opinion to the subject I asked help with. And don't get me wrong, I cheerish your opion on the subjects I ask help with. I wouldn't ask otherwise. I've read several post's you've made about a lot of different things on this forum. You have a lot of GOOD answers. And yes, AT TIMES you even have some good opinion's. But just maybe, now I will repeat that, just maybe, you shouldn't ALWAYS say what your opinion is unless ASKED for it if it isn't on the exact subject at hand. The way I build and installed was NOT at hand. 

Now DON'T think for a minute I won't ask for your help again. I have no idea what your experience entails, but I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge I will be glad to tap into in the future. 

Now, you may or may not like the above. But here is MY opinion...just because we have differences, doesn't mean we can't learn from each other. And here is my question...

Can't we all just get along??? :yes:
Respectfully with NO animosity
Jay
Woodworks


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Jay

Cool your jets. BTDT. My first shop was the living room floor of a 1 bedroom apartment. My second shop was 8' x 15'. So, I've had to do some wild and crazy things too. 

I didn't intend for my opinion to be offensive. But you're right...you didn't ask for an opinion.


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

Sometimes, one cannot see the trees for the forest...

Rather than trying to cut the forest down with one huge chain saw, it is sometimes easier to do it one tree at a time.

If someone has a problem, which appears to fall into the "forest cutting" category, sometimes problems can be solved by, at least, just mentioning the "tree cutting" system... If not mentioned, it may take a long time to cut the forest with one chain saw.

 :smile: :laughing:


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## ebrowers (Jun 27, 2008)

If I am correct, the problem seems to be with attaching a face frame to a cabinet or possibly attaching pieces at a 90 degree angle to each other. A simple solution would be to attach nailers to the inside of the cabinet (glued and screwed) and the screw through them into the face frame or piece of wood. I read one post saying that making the pocket holes in the end of the rails and attaching them to the stiles. That's fine for rails that provide the separation between drawers and similar construction, but attaching a stile and rail generally requires drilling the stile end so it can be attached to the rail. I'm not trying to nitpick but somebody reading these posts might do a face frame incorrectly without even knowing it.

Vic


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2009)

For what its worth, why not use biscuits to attach a face frame to a cabinet. I've only used the Kreg once to put together a face frame,but didn't attach it with it, so had no problems. Was thinking of buying the Kreg,but after all this talk maybe I don't need it.


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## snowi (Mar 2, 2008)

just my 2 cents worth!

Looking at your picture of the plywood that has been drilled with the pocket drill, it shows that the drill was set to deep. I am by no means an experienced user. I have read that the pocket hole should not extend through the edge. ( The reason is as simple as preventing tear out, and to prevent wobble of the screw as it enters the second piece that is being attached)
1. As the drill bit exits the wood, it leave a dimple. ( or tear out and a larger hole that what is required )
2. After the joint is clamped and the screw is tightened the screw point has a tendensey to wobble and that will cause joint slippage.

The soulution is simple, Leave about 1/16" of material on the pocket hole so that the self tapping Kreg screw will find its own center line and not wobble as it enters the second piece. 

Please understand that this is only my 2 cents worth.

Ralph


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## gharvey (Jan 5, 2009)

I don't know if anyone will get this far to read this, but I will give my 2 cents on this. I too have a master kreg jig and have used it in everything from oak, hickory, and pressure treated 2x4's and have never had a problem. One thing I alwasy do if I am putting screws in hard wood such as hickory or white oak is to use bowling alley wax on the screws. I put a bunch of them sticking in the wax and pull them out as I use them and this eliminates the splitting in most cases. Also, you can use a glue block on the inside of the cabinet by getting a piece of scrap wood and hot melt gluing it to the inside. If you put the glue on the block first and then apply it, 95% of the glue always sticks to the first part applied to. It should hold enough clamping pressure to either glue the face frame or kreg screw it. Bowling alley wax can be found at Home Depot and is part of the formula used by Thomas Moser along with heated boiled linseed oil to finish his furniture. Tom did a workshop for RWS and I have also been to his factory in Maine and was given a tour. Hope this helps.

George 
www.rochesterwoodworkers.org


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## goingenoan (May 24, 2008)

firehawkmph said:


> I am not sure what you guys are doing to have the movement you are talking about. I have a couple of kregs different clamps, one being an oversize one that reaches pretty far in. If I can get a clamp on it, I get absolutely no slippage. I also have not had a problem with the wood splitting. Be careful what screws you use with what woods. I know it may sound dumb, but fine thread for hard wood, coarse thread for the soft wood. I use a lot of these in oak, ash, hard maple, hard as a rock hickory, furniture grade plywood, and whatever else I can find a use for. Kreg makes a nice video that explains the tool and its many uses. I have two kreg set, the original and the newer master set that came out a few years ago. It is one of my favorite tools to use, and it never ceases to amaze me. :thumbsup:
> Mike Hawkins


I'll have to agree with you Mike, I have never had the wood split and movement of the joints has been negligible. Definitely check for the appropiate thread and length of the screws for your application. Sometimes when I am joining bigger and more awkward pieces I will use my table saw fence as a backstop and hand pressure on top of the joint and I get acceptable results (I may have to do a little sanding around the joint area to smooth things up).:smile: If you can leave a little extra length on your stiles then you can clean up the ends with a block plane after the glue dries. Good luck you guys.


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## Mike Gager (Jan 11, 2009)

this kind of goes against the directions for the kreg stuff but try this and see if it helps


when you drill the pocket holes take another drill bit and drill completely through the "starter" hole" line up the two pieces and then take an awl or a punch or a pencil and put it through the pocket hole to mark the spot on the other piece of material, then drill a small pilot hole on the other piece where you made the marks. doesnt have to be deep. just enough to get the screws head in the hole which should keep the two pieces from moving around

its a couple extra steps but should work


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## kziggy (Jan 3, 2009)

*With all due respect.....*

my response does not address the Kreg jig issue directly (I bought the "beginner set" at Home Depot some months ago and I'm actually using it for the first time on a project in progress), but if I do run into the splitting ends and shifting problems addressed in this somewhat lengthy posting, you can bet I'm going to look at another form a joinery. In fact, as I read the many comments (and to be honest, I started to skip a few after the 3rd page of postings) I said to myself, how about using biscuits when you get a workpiece that requires a 90 degree angle at the edge, reinforced with an inside corner block? This doesn't address the root "problem" (if that's what it is) that some have experienced with the jig, but it's certainly an option. Sorry if this is too simplistic and possibly too obvious, but I look at the forum as a sorce of many opinions, ideas, and options from guys with and without years of experience, and I guess that's the beauty of the thing. By the way, I've had great success with biscuit joinery as long as the clamp-up is done properly. Good luck.


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## Mike Gager (Jan 11, 2009)

the beauty of the kreg jig is you dont have to use all those clamps and wait for the glue to dry like you do with biscuits. and besides you can still have alignment problems with biscuits

i feel the problems people are having isnt directly related to the jig itself


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## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

I recently got the *Kreg 4* on sale from Rockler...

I used pocket screws for the first time putting a box for a ceiling dust/air cleaner together. *Worked like a charm!*

*I used a good clamp while driving the screws...* I think this is a KEY thing to do.

I had to *double check the bit depth setting* on what to line-up with 3/4" stock... *I could've messed up on this step.*.. The DVD, that came with it, was a huge help with some of the fine points of usage.

*All cuts MUST BE square, in all directions, or you will be in trouble.*

It went so fast, I thought something was missing... yes, *I didn't have to wait for the Glue to dry...* and, *all of the joints were simple Butt joints... cutting the parts was a piece of cake!*

I love it! I will think about this FIRST for anything I build, in the future. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## powrguy (Feb 28, 2009)

I bought the K3 Master Kit back around Christmastime, from Hartville Tool (on sale/free shipping). Prior to that, ALL my cabinet joints on the faceframes were mortise and tenon. I had a dedicated bench mortiser (the JPM-5 Jet model), and would use the standard 3/8" mortise bit in 3/4" thick stock. I used a tenoning jig on the Unisaw for the tenons. I finally decided to try the pocket screws, and the Kreg jig.

After using the Kreg system, I sold my mortising machine. No looking back, as for face frames now, I strictly use the pocket system. I'm talking using this for my cabinets that are made from HARD maple, and have had NO problems whatsoever. I've not had any splitting, blowouts, etc., as long as the depth and collar are set right. One item I did add was the 12"x12" 1/4" thick bench plate that Kreg has, which is inlaid into my assembly table. A large-faced clamp works with it in a keyhole slot, and this allows large faceframes to be laid on the assembly table and moved into position there under the clamphead with no problems like using a table edge only, with the standard clamps. I don't use pocket screws for attaching panels (yet), as I always have a dado or rabbet in the panel to be joined, and glue and clamp them without fasteners. I am going to try the pocket screws using the dado/rabbet panel joints soon, though. I know that it is absolutely critical to have squared/true stock when joining with pocket screws, though, as they WILL pull until the joint makes contact, and if it's not squared, it won't pull straight.

One question I do have for those who use the pocket screws is do you use glue in the joints, too? I know some do not glue and screw the joints, but I do and wonder what others are doing?


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## TheRecklessOne (Jul 22, 2008)

As I am very much a fan of pocket screws and pocket hole joinery I use it very often. If you're joining large panels at 90 degrees biscuits help with line up and you may or may not need glue. I think with speakerboxes though glue is a must. (am I wrong?) 

If you don't want to use bisquits or can't use bisquits try a couple of 90 degree clamping blocks. MDF is notorious for separating with or without pilot holes. Which is why I use a backer and the clamping blocks as well with the pocket screws.

In my opinion.
1. Use coarse thread pocket screws
2. Try a little wax on the screws
3. Tighten just enough to close the joint
4. Use backers

Good luck,
KC:thumbsup:


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## firehawkmph (Apr 26, 2008)

Powerguy,
I used pocket screws quite a bit and almost always use glue. I happen to like titebond III. 
Mike Hawkins


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Just use 1" screws. They will have more than enough holding power while your glue sets.


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## powrguy (Feb 28, 2009)

*Pocket scews + glue*



firehawkmph said:


> Powerguy,
> I used pocket screws quite a bit and almost always use glue. I happen to like titebond III.
> Mike Hawkins


Yeah; I guess I'm old school, but using glue is the only way I've been doing it. I haven't tried destructing the joints, but I know that they are STRONG, and I've seen demo's of various joinery types and pocket screws rate highly. I seldom use MDF for panels, so I don't have much experience with them using pocket screws. MDF doesn't hold screws real well in any case, and I sure wouldn't trust pocket screws only to joint MDF panels at 90 degrees, though, without glue.

thanks


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