# Stacking and Stickering



## mackman (Mar 2, 2016)

A few weeks ago, my dad and I had an adventure in milling some black walnut. I didn't have the room to stack it at my home, so he took it home with him (an hour and 45 minutes away) and stacked and stickered it at my insistence. 

Today, I discovered that the "stickers" he used are just a quarter-inch thick, although they do seem pretty uniform in that thickness. From my reading, it seems the recommended/standard thickness is a full inch...if that's the case, how important is that full inch? We're going to unstack it and restack it to avoid sticker stain (on the advice of our miller), so should I go into Home Depot or wherever and get different wood for new stickers? Or will that quarter-inch do just fine? 

Thank you!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*You need 1" stickers*

The 1" allows more air to circulate for drying and that's the whole point of stacking and stickering. If you don't have a large stack, you can make your own from 3/4" thick stock turned on edge. Keep the stickers vertically lined up, so when you weigh it down the forces will be all in a line. This avoids sagging. Have them about 2-3 ft apart.
:smile3:


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I use a 1"x2"-8' white wood lathe from HD or Lowes ....there usually 3/4" thick (occasionally alittle under) and 1 1/2" wide. They're dry and uniform thickness and being a white/blond wood (usually fir or spruce) they don't stain your walnut . A few ten thousand feet and no issues. I see some using a sticker custom made for the industry with grooves that help the moisture at the stickers escape BUT I've not had any issues there either.

DEPENDING on your thickness sawn is spacing used..... FOR me I space 4/4 @ 16-24"....6/4 & 8/4 I space at 24" BUT some go further...make sure you seal the ends with anchorseal or equivalent sealer, this helps reduce checking and splitting.


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## mackman (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks for the input, guys! My dad had some extra 3/4 inch plywood from our HD trip, which I ripped and used as stickers...the HD is a considerable drive from here and I didn't feel like making an extra trip just for that extra quarter inch. I had _almost_ enough for both stacks, and I used the crappy wood from before to finish off the second one. All in all, I'm really happy with how my stacking turned out.

Now, from what I've read, I should get some sort of weight to throw on top of the stacks, right? To keep the top boards straight? Would cinder blocks (on top of stickers, of course) be the cheapest thing to use, or what would you guys recommend?


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

That looks correct EXCEPT you may have drying troubles IF that's a shipping container with no air movement to release the moisture that's already trapped internally, stale air is not what you need. You need air space on the sides also so moving air can carry away the moisture. You can add a small fan to blow across/through the bottom layers and will come back across the above space to carry out the moisture. This needs to be stradegically placed so your not resucking the moisture laden air back into fan and reblown through the stack. A small VAC squrriel cage fan with a section of duct so it's fresh air into it all the time. A dehumidifier and a small fan are a better answer in a tightly enclosed area.


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## mackman (Mar 2, 2016)

Oh, that's great advice! I actually hadn't thought of that...I thought that as long as it wasn't closed, it would be fine. I can probably run an extension cord in there with a dehumidifier and fan...any suggestions on models/price range? How heavy-duty would a dehumidifier need to be for that amount of wood?


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I use a 70 pt in my kiln and storage.....yes it's slower than a commercial as Nyle and definitely not as fancy BUT I use a home weather station to moniter the progress inside without opening the doors. The DH is generally around $250-$300 and weather station a little over $100

I ain't HIGHTECH.....BUT some of it would be NICE!!!!


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## mackman (Mar 2, 2016)

Goodness, that's a little more expensive than I was hoping for. Would it be better to just move it outside of the storage thing?


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

> how important is that full inch?


Very!!...3/4" minimum...



> We're going to unstack it and restack it to avoid sticker stain (on the advice of our miller), so should I go into Home Depot or wherever and get different wood for new stickers? Or will that quarter-inch do just fine?


We will only use "KilnStick" for our stickers and most professionals will not ever use soft wood for a long period stack and air dry situation...absolutely only hardwoods and/or composite plastics with air circulation profiles...like 1.5" pvc water pipe cut in half...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

This is a little more info for the readers and also may be a few whom have a better way. Mackman PM'd me BUT we both agree others may benefit from our PM's. So here they are...
_______

Tim,

Thanks a lot for your input and advice on my stacking/stickering thread. You mentioned that if I kept them in the storage container, I would need to add some form of circulation and dehumidification. My question is, would it be better to simply bring them out of the container and stick them in a shady, open space where they'll get all the air circulation they could ask for? We have the space, so if that would be better, that's what we'll do. 

Thank you!

Mackenzie
___________

IF I was going to put in the container I'd do it via running a DH in there and slowly work the settings lower as it catches up to the next level down.....A caution is NOT to dry too fast , causes casehardening. On www.woodweb.com Dr. gene is the go to guy in accuracy with drying....he has written many books and posts with the concerns, you can go there and do searches....I avoid my casehardening and minimize my losses by ADing first a yr per inch thick under open sheds that have a top and minimum sides so air freely flows through. There's several use the containers as kilns and love them BUT I have no particulars about there set-ups EXCEPT they usually require careful planning of the air circulation around the lumber....It has to flow through then up a wall then over the top and back through DH and square corners have to be eliminated or it dead air or swirls and not flows.
Anywhere in a open air covered is the best....too much air flow can be bad also they say. Anchorseals company also has a canvas/screen used for drying that is good....I think the last I was at their website they offered a small drying net/setup for a few hundred BF at a time.

I would like to post this on the thread you have started as it would help others BUT only with your permission as you did send via private message.
Thanks and I hope this helps.

_________

By all means post this on the thread! I only PM'ed you because I thought that would be easier for you. So to clarify, you're saying open air in the shade is best in general for slow drying?

__________

Sorry so late....BUT yes open air is always better....Some put a top of a couple pieces of tin hanging over approx a ft each way = 4x8 stack =6x10 top and then wieght it to hold tin and help prevent warping.

_________

ohh, interesting. Well, my stacks are a little ramshackle for the tin, but the day before I left, my dad and I got a bunch of concrete chunks and stacked them as well as we could on top of the wood. I'm sure the top boards will still warp some, but I'm really excited to see them after the Summer (temperatures get pretty high here in the Central Valley of California, and the guy who milled the wood for us told us that the 4x4 stuff will likely be ready after the Summer is over). 

Thanks again for the advice!


**** IF anyone has any to add please post...we're all here to help AND learn!!! ****


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey Tim...Awesome Post here!

Thanks for sharing these insights in more detail as you discussed them with the Mackenzie.

I'm just going to hit major highlights (that you too have shared) that are supercritical in Wood Drying Modalities, that will cover virtually all species, and just add a bit from my experience over the years...

The slower you can dry wood the better...!!!...Open air is the best...

End seal logs/bolts (waxes are best...wax/oil blends better) *as soon as possible*...before milling if possible...definitely after or a second coat...

Pin, staple, or cleat checks and wide slab/board ends...

Banding Fletch Bolts is an excellent method for stacking and storing...These can be (if equipment/manpower allows) placed vertically in double rows that slightly lean toward each other (acient method from Asia and still used in some areas of Japan.)

Vertical Rack Stacking for wood drying some species (like in Japan 乾燥木材) is another useful method for drying if the wood is of a good quality, and species. Other elements attended to well (i.e. end sealing, cleating, etc) is critical. In this method the discoloration of oxidizing in the wood won't matter...or...some will applying a UV stabilizer to arrest natural color. This is also an easy access storage method.

















Below is what was made of this wood...Palonia I believe was the species...

















Drying sheds that allow excellent air circulation are wonderful to have if you can build one for your inventory...

Water storage before drying (or even after in some cases/methods) is also a method worth exploring for some...

Again...Great job Tim with sharing this...Thanks!

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

WOW thanks Jay!!! I had been told years ago about standing wood vertical to dry that it let the cells be in a more correct position and would cure quicker.....Here we definitely couldn't let them touch the ground....termites are fond of our climate here...warm, damp and maybe a little food source(s) :grin: :surprise2:

Paulonia is a wonderful tree to cut and beautiful wood. I have a few on my farm BUT I've corresponded and been to a paulonia farm a few hundred miles from me. Can you give me a insight on this wood....It was introduced here and has to have slow growth (tight rings) to bring premium pricing and it's exported mostly. I understand it's a light and stable wood used in USA more for surfboards. We always heard rumors it was desired due to craftsman enjoyed it and was fire resistant for some type of specialty box maybe for storing wedding dresses and valuables....I've never been able to find these remarks specifically on the net. Do you have any solid info from your travel or knowledge???

Thanks again!!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi Tim,

Some of these these Old Fellows in Japan have been drying wood (and working it) for over 100 generation unbroken oral tradition (that is a 1000 years plus!!!) Some of these guys put the wood in the rack the way it comes out of the tree, and is also oriented the way it grew naturally. In my experience with this method it is much faster. I say I work in green wood, which I do most often with timber frame materials as they just can't dry (and shouldn't) in any reasonable time. With even large slabs, and these Asian methods, the wood loses MC pretty darn fast even if exposed to rain...if...all the other things I mentioned are taken care of...

You can't tell (or see well) from the photos. None of these touch the ground. Some racks are higher than others. while others the ground has a gravel air break that inhibits Isoptera (aka Termites) or other ground dwelling species of buggy. Japans climate goes from tropical to very humid and warm with heavy snow winters...It is very similar to either Maine, or Florida/Kentucky...

Paulownia is indeed a glories species to work in. I have gotten to do a number of pieces over the years including a slab Tea Table with live edge. Even low grade is marketable if you have a good stand and/or find a vender from Asia to give you a good price. Usually container amounts only so you have to have a lot or go in with someone you trust. 

Finding info on Paulownia (that is any real good) on the net is impossible for the most part unless you can do research in the native languages of Asia (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese) which with a little patience and diligence a computer will help a tremendous amount. Going there and/or learning directly from those that do live there is, of course, even better...

Saw and tool handles of all sorts are a big consumer for the lower grades of Paulownia. Purchase a saw handle wrapped in Rattan from Wood Craft or others and 99% of the time (or more..ha, ha) its Paulownia wood. Surfboards, Strip Kayaks/Canoes, Jewelry and Wedding Boxes (as you shared) Spoons and related Kitchen Ware, Loom Frames, and the list keep going...Great for turning too for bread bowls, flour storage containers, and I could keep rambling...:nerd2:

Regards,

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Jay

They say you never "lose" anything on these computers BUT I CAN!!! I just typed all this reply/question and went to get a picture(s) and instead of minimize I X'd it all gone BYE BYE....I count it all Joy in the Lord !!!

(this was much longer and better worded)

.....While I have you "rambling" from your last post I got another wood question. It pertains to a wood that is considered a nusiance more than usable. Ailanthus aka "tree of paradise", "stink tree", "tree of hades" (due to the awful smell when sawn). I've seen where there's been a little study(s) on it and it does have some usefulness as cabinetry and furniture BUT has never caught on as a useful wood and is actually considered a invasive tree by the Dept of Forestry.

In your studies and travels have you got to experience using this species?? Any forthought???

Do you happen to have a pic of the Paulownia tea table????

I though of you and your travels as I was typing the "first" time...there was a short documentry on tv about the older temples/palaces/and parliments(?) and they were showing some of Japan and their ancient architect ....man that's some fine craftsmanship!!!! and has lasted for AGES!!! You were Blessed to get to travel and study the masters...AWESOME!!!

Here's a few pics of the spalted Ailanthus...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Awesome Ailanthus*

Hey Tim,

I get so made at myself when I fail to backup copy what I am typing. I have my system set up to back up most stuff automatically...But when we do loose stuff...IT SUCKS!!!

I am almost tempted to say you should repost this topic on Ailanthus in a separate post...and I think (??) I will do just that myself...This tree deserves that attention...Thanks for getting it started so look for that post sometime tonight, and we can pick up this part of the conversation there...

Blessings,

j


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Jay that'll be great, I just got overwhelmed with the good info I forgot I was hi-jacking Mackmans thread.

Sorry Mackman.


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