# Outdoor 6x6 to be painted



## urbanlogger (Feb 25, 2018)

Hi guys, I am pretty new to this forum.
I have a buddy whose asking me to make him a rather lavish cloths line for his yard. Obviously, it will need to stand up to the weather, and he would like it to be painted. I am stuck as to what wood to use for the posts. They will be 6x6. I don’t want to wait for green treat lumber to dry, and he would not be happy paying for cedar. Do you have any suggestions for what wood to use? Economical and durable are priorities.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

urbanlogger said:


> Hi guys, I am pretty new to this forum.
> I have a buddy whose asking me to make him a rather lavish cloths line for his yard. Obviously, it will need to stand up to the weather, and he would like it to be painted. I am stuck as to what wood to use for the posts. They will be 6x6. I don’t want to wait for green treat lumber to dry, and he would not be happy paying for cedar. Do you have any suggestions for what wood to use? Economical and durable are priorities.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


6x6 posts is way too much for a clothes line. Assuming you are going to put the posts in the ground keep in mind critters will find it a tasty snack. I think it would be worth the wait for treated wood. Sometimes if you go to a small mom and pop lumber company the treated wood has been on the shelf long enough it's dry. Even if it's fresh from the mill if you stack and sticker the wood it will usually dry in a month.


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## urbanlogger (Feb 25, 2018)

Steve Neul said:


> 6x6 posts is way too much for a clothes line. Assuming you are going to put the posts in the ground keep in mind critters will find it a tasty snack. I think it would be worth the wait for treated wood. Sometimes if you go to a small mom and pop lumber company the treated wood has been on the shelf long enough it's dry. Even if it's fresh from the mill if you stack and sticker the wood it will usually dry in a month.



I agree. I told them it was a bit much, but this is what they wanted. I had nothing to do with strength and everything to do with proportion. I don’t know that we have many mom and pop lumber stores here. All the ones I’m familiar with are big specialty stores. I suppose if I can get them to pass up the 6x6 I can go with cedar 4x4s











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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you use cedar I would coat the part that goes in the ground with tar so it would last longer. 

4x4's would be sufficient for a clothes line.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

urbanlogger said:


> Hi guys, I am pretty new to this forum.
> I have a buddy whose asking me to make him a rather lavish cloths line for his yard. Obviously, it will need to stand up to the weather, and he would like it to be painted. I am stuck as to what wood to use for the posts. They will be 6x6. I don’t want to wait for green treat lumber to dry, and he would not be happy paying for cedar. Do you have any suggestions for what wood to use? Economical and durable are priorities.


Actually...There is some wisdom in your friends request, whether by accident of good fortune...

6x6 is actually a minimal size I would recommend to a client for an exposed close line, and have done several up to 8x8. 

Many don't really understand or get the loads that can be subjected to a "vectored line" no mater the rigging purpose (in this case close line.) Vectoring any load can more than create large loading to the anchor points, and a full set of lines (usually 4) fully loaded with wet or damp cloths with even a slight wind can very easily (and has) torn lighter frame (4x4) work from the ground...

Since I work in mostly tradtional modalities, I do not employ (or care for) pressure treated wood, nor find them superior in anyway to other wood species available. 

For such an exposed item, it will have a life span but this can be greatly extended even past the century mark if one takes certain preparatory precautions...

I would go further, but only if a traditional approach is of interest to you and you are of mind to try your hand at them?


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

I agree with Jay...Minimum of 6x6 ....There's a LOT of pressure on those lines with wet clothes, especially if only one is needed that day.....TORQUE TWIST unbelievable put on it then.


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## urbanlogger (Feb 25, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Actually...There is some wisdom in your friends request, whether by accident of good fortune...
> 
> 6x6 is actually a minimal size I would recommend to a client for an exposed close line, and have done several up to 8x8.
> 
> ...




I would be open to a traditional approach.
What kind of wood would you recommend? And where might I find it? I would like to keep costs low as possible. 


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

urbanlogger said:


> I would be open to a traditional approach.
> What kind of wood would you recommend? And where might I find it? I would like to keep costs low as possible.


Local sources fresh green lumber will be the least expensive and best type for this project...Rot resistant species like Locust, White/Chestnut Oak, Catalpa, ect are the better species.

If life span of the piece isn't really of any great concern...any species should last at least 20 years if the following steps are followed...perhaps longer.

First I would timber frame the structure and not employ any metal hardware...This alone helps longevity, and makes for a very rewarding project. Just a hand saw, chisels and mallet are all the tool one really needs with the help of a few simple layout tools.

I would need to see your design to critique it if you wanted me (us) to here on the forum.

These posts can be mounted to stone plinth, but that takes a lot more skill and really isn't warranted unless interested and/or one has stone working tools and interest in such work.

Direct burial in the ground is going to be the next best way of mounting the posts. For a 4 cord set up, I wouldn't go less deep than 1000mm (a little over 3')

Do not fill this hole with soil!!!! 

Fill about 200 mm of the bottom with elongated stones packed in with a small sledge hammer or tamper...the stones need to be up on there edges...NOT LAID FLAT!!!...when packed into the bottom of the excavated hole.

The post bottom that will be below grade is first chard with open flame till the skin of the timber cracks. Then oil the timber fully with an exterior blend of tung, flax, citrus oil mixed with pine rosin and beeswax (exterior grand finishes like this can be gotten at Heritage Finishes.) All the wood can and should be oiled. 

Rock salt can also be mixed with heated beeswax and the oil mix as a further precaution for the section below grade. A borate capsule/rods further treats the wood if it is place inside the timber through a bored hole to the core.

Now place the post into the hole and position to your liking by hand packing more vertically oriented stone...no soil/sand!!!!...Stones should not be smaller than 100" (~4") in size. This orientation does several things...Over time they get tighter by wedging into each other. This is called "moment resistance in tipping" when secured this way. It also drains water away from the bottom of the post much better and further helps in keeping decay a bay for a greater period of time. Some folks will remove such set ups and just scarf joint in new bottoms when the time comes. This is how very old one last and/or have stone bottom scarfed in.

The entire frame can also be chard for aesthetic effect as well as additional preservation of the wood no matter the species.


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## urbanlogger (Feb 25, 2018)

Jay C. White Cloud said:


> Local sources fresh green lumber will be the least expensive and best type for this project...Rot resistant species like Locust, White/Chestnut Oak, Catalpa, ect are the better species.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s very helpful. As for the framing, I was planning the cutting a slot in the top of the 6x6 that’s 3in wide. I’d trim the center of the 4x4 to 3in and set it in the slot. I was thinking I would then run a bolt through the slot and and 4x4 just to hold it all together. I haven’t come up with a plan on how to join the smaller cross members that run at a 45 degree angle off the 6x6 and to the 4x4.

As far as the hole, I was just going to pour cement. It seems like the strongest, cheapest, and easiest way to get it done. 


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

urbanlogger said:


> That’s very helpful. As for the framing, I was planning the cutting a slot in the top of the 6x6 that’s 3in wide. I’d trim the center of the 4x4 to 3in and set it in the slot. I was thinking I would then run a bolt through the slot and and 4x4 just to hold it all together. I haven’t come up with a plan on how to join the smaller cross members that run at a 45 degree angle off the 6x6 and to the 4x4.
> 
> As far as the hole, I was just going to pour cement. It seems like the strongest, cheapest, and easiest way to get it done.
> 
> ...


Use cement and the post is doomed to fail in just a few years at best...Sadly I see it all the time with such applications. Especially on modern Pole Barns.

Cement is a hideous material if folks really knew more about it. It is nothing (modern OPC) but low grade binders and fly ash. 

Additionally, in general, a mortar type packing still would not be germane, even if one took the time to mix a natural cement or pozzolanic. These still act like a solidified sponge trapping moisture against the wood and vastly accelerating the degradation and rot of the wood. Modern OPC is even worse than these by far.

As to the design, its hard to get clear detailing with words alone. I think I have a CAD model around here someplace I could send you if you wish. Contact me by my email, and I will share it as long as this is not re-shared or used commercially.

Regards,

j


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Tennessee Tim said:


> I agree with Jay...Minimum of 6x6 ....There's a LOT of pressure on those lines with wet clothes, especially if only one is needed that day.....TORQUE TWIST unbelievable put on it then.


How much pull is exerted on the poles is totally dependent upon:

1. How many lines are fastened to each poll.
2. The distance between the polls.
3. The weight of cloths plus water of the total on the poles.
4. The distribution of the weight on each line. 

NONE of these factors is known. Therefore, a discussion of the size of poles is totally irrelevant. 

George


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

GeorgeC said:


> How much pull is exerted on the poles is totally dependent upon:
> 
> 1. How many lines are fastened to each poll.
> 2. The distance between the polls.
> ...


George....the first 4 lines are correct for final conclusion BUT.....that's BUT.... he posted a pic of what they wanted similar to SO I'll start from there...... AND I'll do it from 2 different approaches.

1st...I'll just use the law of averages AND since I live in the country AND I see ALOT of clotheslines that are FULLY used......Most hang 1 to 2 FULL tub washings at a time... AND the average lines are approx 16-20 ft apart. FROM all the ones I'VE seen and noticed , a 4x4 normally bows and or twists....IF you don't believe this look at how many 4x4 posts on decks have a twist OR bow AND they don't EVEN have a pulling tension. Most of ours started doing a 4" steel pipe to eliminate the torque and twist issues.

2nd...Take the pic and start the calculations......You basically KNOW a 6x6 is roughly 6"....So you take the first post side measure at angle of ground towards the other and the 2nd post measure than average....than take the same at ground and angle and measure post base to post base and divide by the post side average. Without mics and using a tape measure it's approx 17-20 ft apart.....To back this GUESSTIMATE, using the towels and the blanket hanging and estimate the # that could be hung....looks like 3 blankets which would equal approx 15'+ needed.
3rd....the pic shows approx 6x6 post with 4x4 top and 2"-3"x 4" braces.

4th...***.NOTE*** THIS is from years of experience AND mentally noting wood reactions....NOT my first "RODEO" ,BUT I do enjoy the thrill of the "RIDE".

GREAT point though.... they are important !!! BUT the law of average says wood 4x4's don't make good posts exposed to the elements/weather!!!!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

urbanlogger said:


> [...] As far as the hole, I was just going to pour cement. It seems like the strongest, cheapest, and easiest way to get it done.


Bad idea. My father had "bird houses." Each one was mounted on a 4x4 stuck directly in the concrete. The 4x4s rotted out at the concrete line in only a few years. I know, because I got the job of busting out the concrete to make room for the new pouring. The second time, my father mounted steel H frames (post bases) in the concrete. The new 4x4s were attached to the frames, so the wood did not actually touch the concrete. Do a web search for "post base" or "column base."


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## urbanlogger (Feb 25, 2018)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Bad idea. My father had "bird houses." Each one was mounted on a 4x4 stuck directly in the concrete. The 4x4s rotted out at the concrete line in only a few years. I know, because I got the job of busting out the concrete to make room for the new pouring. The second time, my father mounted steel H frames (post bases) in the concrete. The new 4x4s were attached to the frames, so the wood did not actually touch the concrete. Do a web search for "post base" or "column base."



Something like this? I’m not sure it would be strong enough to resist the leverage. Seems to me that the screws would pull out. 











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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> How much pull is exerted on the poles is totally dependent upon:
> 
> 1. How many lines are fastened to each poll.
> 2. The distance between the polls.
> ...


Hi George,

In my experience, there are some "basic standards" to which such things should be built, and I have designed and built a number of them over the years, including replacement of many that had been under-built...as already suggested.

If your experience designing and building these are different, please do share your designs and knowledge experience with building them.

My additional validation for what I have posted thus far is the following:

Part of my job annually is Rigging.

I have to do this on timber frame projects for raisings all the time, in the Arborist industry as a Climber/Rigger on a regular basis, and as a Wilderness Guild where the AMGA, ACCT and related high angle standards for adventure sports and rescue must be evaluate and facilitated. I have to look at all types of critical loads including those that are...vector load scenarios. 

I doubt much this is going to be a single line build for the OP as describe already? As such I have made the recommendation I have based on direct experience...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

urbanlogger said:


> Something like this? I’m not sure it would be strong enough to resist the leverage. Seems to me that the screws would pull out.
> 
> View attachment 344585


Yep...seen these fail often as well...From not being deep enough...still facilitating rot in the wood...frost heave because of soil types...etc.

Plus...it is...an added expense that just is not necessary at all. I would, if the build warranted it, or a client wanted it, create a scarf joint in wood (木と石継手) (that drains water) and mount the wood section to it, if they wanted the expenditure. They do look very nice.

Other wise I stand by my current recommendation being the "down and dirty" quickest that still can last a heck of a long time!!! :grin:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Different woods have different rot-resistances which depend on soil composition density and drainage.
You all know that.

I live in the western red cedar mountain forests of BC at 53N. Most of you know that.
We use lots of cedar as the mills are 20 minutes down the road, one after another.

6x6 posts are commonly cut from the log core. This reduces twist and warp.
However they split like hello, right to the center, exposing a huge surface to the weather.
You ought to find something better.

My neighbor felt he needed a concentration camp fence of 6x6 posts and 7' solid panels.
OK by me. I can put my fingers into the cracks of the posts on my side. OK by me. Not my fence.

Me, I have quarter-sawn WRC 4x4 posts and stucco wire fence, covered with grape vines.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

If you choose pressure treated wood there is nothing wrong with setting them in concrete. I had a building which stood for 20 years and a storm destroyed the building but the posts remained. When rebuilding the building I just dug up the posts, broke the concrete off and reused them setting them in concrete again. 

There isn't a problem painting treated wood if you allow it to dry. If it's still wet from the factory you can just build with it and wait until summer when it's dry and paint it then. The wood wouldn't deteriorate in a few months, it would take years with nothing on it for that to happen.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I have an outdoor clothes line for the birds to crap on. Two lengths of telephone pole, about 80' apart.
Short one is 12' near the house. Tall one must be 18' in the far back corner of the garden.
Line is plastic-coated #2 stranded galvanized clothes line (what else?)
I'll never paint either one of them. No concern for rot in my lifetime.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Robson Valley said:


> Different woods have different rot-resistances which depend on soil composition density and drainage.
> You all know that.
> .


SADLY Robson they don't....the soil composition, density and drainage ARE SO important on how a post will survive.....I'll finish below....



Steve Neul said:


> If you choose pressure treated wood there is nothing wrong with setting them in concrete. I had a building which stood for 20 years and a storm destroyed the building but the posts remained. When rebuilding the building I just dug up the posts, broke the concrete off and reused them setting them in concrete again.
> .


Steve it's obvious you live in a drier area .... It doesn't matter what species of wood, treated or NOT, IF there's much moisture in the ground it leaches out the acids in the concrete destroying the wood which is also moist due to ground which draws it deeper into center. IF you have a drier good draining soil you'll NEVER see this issue BUT IF you take the law of average across the USA IT happens everyday!!!! I've learned prior Jay's confirming in this thread that I use stone for drainage in the bottom 6", tamp it, set post pack more rock all around and tamp as filling up to within 3 " of top and put soil and tamp with slope to shed surface water away. Here in my area (I think it's close to average MC in ground of US) the concrete reacts toughly with wood and it destroys and snaps off at ground level.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> Different woods have different rot-resistances which depend on soil composition density and drainage.


Yes...*"different woods have different rot-resistance,"*...absolutely. 

As reflected in your post, you live in an area with some of the larger soft wood species know for this excellent decay resistance. Red and white (both Thuja) and Yellow (Cupressus) are often erroneously called cedars, yet we actually have no native species of cedar in North America as most of these are actually *varieties of Cypress*.

It does not depend on "soil composition" for most species with decay resistance to any appreciable differential in use application. Soil chemistry can have some (still being studied) effect on tree health, of course, and deposit level (in some species) of the chemicals they contain to resist decay.

As to natural checking (aka splits and cracks) seldom, except in cases of felling damage, the checks have little to know effect on the structual integrity of a timber...accept on very rare occasions. 

Heart Center post are still the standard today as it has been historically for large timber application such as timber framing. Quarter sawn timber typically can "crown" and this is taken advantage of for creating load bearing tie and cantilever beams in such wood architecture. 

Your application of a large telephone post is a common practice. Though I can't (and don't) recommend it to clients because of my conservative environmental perspectives, it is as stated a robust and sturdy method.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

I will repeat myself here for the benefit of other less experienced readers.

As a professional architectural designer and Timberwright...both in new construction and historic restoration...it is absolutely considered...*bad practice*...in most areas (other than perhaps very arid regions) to ever *encapsulate wood in OPC (aka concrete) pressure treated or otherwise.* It facilitates core decay in pressure treated lumber (and rapid decay in untreated) as well as shear failures at the moment connection zone of the timber within the OPC embedment.

It is an outlawed practice for any structures within Playgrounds and Recreational facilities, and not allow in most environmentally sensitive areas.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

The news is in. Different woods have different rot resistances, side by side in the same square yard of soil.
You're missing the complex polyphenolic wood lignins. Wealthy fencers use spruce or pine for a good 4-5 years. 
The rest of us are using western red cedar for 25+ yrs and longer. Homestead WRC fence posts are still fit for wire.

Pressure treated with preservative really brings many species up side by side.
But, drive around and take a good look.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Tennessee Tim said:


> George....the first 4 lines are correct for final conclusion BUT.....that's BUT.... he posted a pic of what they wanted similar to SO I'll start from there...... AND I'll do it from 2 different approaches.
> 
> 1st...I'll just use the law of averages AND since I live in the country AND I see ALOT of clotheslines that are FULLY used......Most hang 1 to 2 FULL tub washings at a time... AND the average lines are approx 16-20 ft apart. FROM all the ones I'VE seen and noticed , a 4x4 normally bows and or twists....IF you don't believe this look at how many 4x4 posts on decks have a twist OR bow AND they don't EVEN have a pulling tension. Most of ours started doing a 4" steel pipe to eliminate the torque and twist issues.
> 
> ...


Actually I would not at all recommend a wood post. Too many problems with wood.

When I grew up my mother had a 3" galvanized pipe at the end of her cloths line(s). This was set in concrete. 

When I first got married and we did not have a dryer I did the same thing.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Tennessee Tim said:


> SADLY Robson they don't....the soil composition, density and drainage ARE SO important on how a post will survive.....I'll finish below....
> 
> 
> 
> Steve it's obvious you live in a drier area .... It doesn't matter what species of wood, treated or NOT, IF there's much moisture in the ground it leaches out the acids in the concrete destroying the wood which is also moist due to ground which draws it deeper into center. IF you have a drier good draining soil you'll NEVER see this issue BUT IF you take the law of average across the USA IT happens everyday!!!! I've learned prior Jay's confirming in this thread that I use stone for drainage in the bottom 6", tamp it, set post pack more rock all around and tamp as filling up to within 3 " of top and put soil and tamp with slope to shed surface water away. Here in my area (I think it's close to average MC in ground of US) the concrete reacts toughly with wood and it destroys and snaps off at ground level.


It's not that dry where I live. I live in a low lying area which stays wet for months at a time. I built my shop setting treated posts in concrete and there isn't any problem. Sometimes a company will cheat and just hose the wood with the chemical but if it's actually pressure treated it will work.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> ...Different woods have different rot resistances, side by side in the same square yard of soil...You're missing the complex polyphenolic wood lignins.


Hello RV,

Nope..not really missing any of that, and I don't think the OP is either...

He happens to work in the Forestry industry, and I (among other things) have been a professional sawyer and Arborist for over 40 years. I also follow closely (here and in Japan) the dendrological studies of basically...standing dead trees. 

I do this to stay up to speed for my work in Challenge and Adventure Course Design (ACCT standards) and understanding the research application to not only...tree health...for clients, but the continued effects in historic restoration and timber frame architectural design.

Polyphenolic, and lignins do indeed very species to species, and even within species, yet this in not sole (or even completely) understood yet. Same trees growing the same soils can (and do) have different levels according to age, size, variants in genetics (*newer research)...as well as...soil composition. It is even suggest by many of the "temple forest" managed specifically for material service of acient shrines and temples in Japan (same genera that grow in your area) that a multitude of factors can have an impact on the deposit of these chemicals withing the cellulars structure of the tree...Soil alone is not the foundation. 

As to understanding "fence posts" I have been part of restoration programs at President Lincolns family cabins, birth cabin, Gettysburg Battle field, Mel rose Plantation, to just name a few, with the oldest fence service professionally being over 320 years of age. So I hope I may have a voice in this conversation that may have a bit of value and knowledge behind them...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Sure, just guess work on my part from 3 degrees in wood science. My entire working career teaching dendrology and biochemistry kind of fell out of that.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> Sure, just guess work on my part from 3 degrees in wood science. My entire working career teaching dendrology and biochemistry kind of fell out of that.


Gosh, with that background, I would love to know more of what you are currently reading!!!

Do you have any knowledge, or referenceable materials on this topic as it applies to the Arborist, Timber Frame or Restoration fields that is current? 

I am always looking for new studies and data which I imagine you see all the time in your line of work. I am open to any from Asia or Europe also, if you have access to it. 

If you have a Linkedin profile and/or share on any of the professional forums there, I would like to connect, if interested? Academia.edu also is a very vast and extensive source online if you have research there as well...or you are familiar with on this topic of interest...

Thank you!


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

urbanlogger said:


> Something like this? I’m not sure it would be strong enough to resist the leverage. Seems to me that the screws would pull out.
> View attachment 344585


Yes. Exactly. Those are the ones. (Clarification: You are showing the 6x6 version. I have used the 4x4 and 4x6 versions.)

In case it matters, we live in Orange County, California. The weather is mild and mostly dry. I don't know how to describe our soil, but I presume that most of the land around us is old clay-type sediment deposited from the Santa Ana River. 

My father had problems with the "bird houses", which were attached to 4x4 posts. The 4x4 posts were set directly into the concrete. The 4x4s were painted with several heavy coats of outdoor paint before being planted in the concrete. They rotted out, from the surface of the concrete down, within a few years. Most of the rot was not visible, until one of them broke and fell over.

We also had two 4x4 posts holding a large section of the roof that extends out beyond the house into a patio cover. Those posts were set directly into the concrete about 50 years ago. In 2013, we demolished the concrete, and replaced it with paving stones. After my father's experience with the "bird houses", we were not surprised to discover that the two 4x4 posts were completely rotted at and below the concrete. Frankly, we wondered what supported the roof, and felt lucky that it had not collapsed. We replaced the 4x4 posts with 4x6 posts, and them set in those Simpson bases. I just went out and looked at them. The 4x6 posts show no signs of decay after four years. If we had set them in concrete, they would have started to decay, even though they are under a roof. 

The Simpson fixtures came with large lag bolts. There were many bolts to drill and install. I don't know much about structural engineering, but those brackets and bolts seem very heavy, thick, and strong. It is hard to know how much force a clothesline would apply, but I personally believe that the wood would fail before the bracket would bend. Those Simpson brackets seem as thick (or thicker) than the old metal welded clothesline "T"s we used to have. You could always call Simpson and ask to speak with one of their engineers to see what they might say.

If you decide to use the Simpson fixtures or something similar, I recommend that you think carefully about how to orient them in relation to the clothesline. You could set the "U"s so that you see the "U" shape when you are standing perpendicular to the clothesline, so that you see the clothesline across your view. My guess is that would be better, because one vertical side of the "U" would help stiffen the post against the torsional forces of the clotheslines. 

You could also set them so that you can see through the "U"s when you look straight down the clothesline, which I would not recommend. My hunch is that this orientation is more likely to fail, because the brackets won't help with support against the torsional force, only the bolts. A post might literally fall over through the "U" in the bracket.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I handed in my keys and walked away more than 10 years ago. 
Most of my useful reference materials, I left for the new boy to stumble through.
There sure is lots for you young people to work with. All yours.

I've had to pay some renewed attention to woods and soils in the construction of frames 
to support grape vines but that's about it. I used some SPF in the beginning and, 16 years later,
I need to weasel some new wood into the oldest row. Will try western red cedar, standing on slate stones.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> I handed in my keys and walked away more than 10 years ago.
> Most of my useful reference materials, I left for the new boy to stumble through.
> There sure is lots for you young people to work with. All yours.
> 
> ...


Hey RV,

I hear you...

I'm way closer to 60 now, but true old age doesn't realy start till the 80's and 90's in our family. I still climb but not daily like I once did. I follow the rule...

Keep moving!!!

It isn't as easy as it once was, but I seem to still dust most of the 30 somethings around me...ha, ha. That's probably the Marine in me still forcing me to keep up.

Good luck with getting the new post in. I'm sure you will do it!! Forgive me if I validated to much, its hard sometime on forums to know who your speaking with, and as you could tell I tend to be "all natural" and/or traditional in approach.

Anyhow...Nice to meet you!

j


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## gj13us (Apr 19, 2016)

This guy says concrete is o.k. 
http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/03/footing-2/

And I checked one of his references, IBC section 2304.11.4.1, "Posts and columns supporting permanent structures that are embedded in concrete that is in direct contact with the earth, embedded in concrete that is exposed to the weather or in direct contact with the earth shall be of preservative-treated wood." 

Which means that the IBC doesn't prohibit the use of concrete. 

But I only know what I read on the Internet.:turned:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Jay: greeting from 53N in the mountains. Where the wild deer stand on your front door step in the night.
If I can get enough punky rot out of the hole, I'll use cedar. If not, I'll scab a piece of 1" rebar to the bottom of the new post.
It's in the middle and never wobbled much in the first place.

We have a fairly high water table in the valley bottom. My property is crowned as much as 16" to stay dry.
So, when you build a fence, cedar posts then dry mix Portland cement and gravel & sand and tamp it into the holes.
No water. It can't set up solid so the drainage is exceptional. Set in about a week, good enough for wire and new vines.

I don't like the concept of the standing wetness up against the wood post surface for years on end.
I lived next to a neighborhood when preformed, pressure-treated basement walls were all the construction and code rage.
The word was, supposed to be good for 40 years in the ground. Got any 40-yr old data?
What can you do in year 41 if it rots? Massive silence.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> Jay: greeting from 53N in the mountains. Where the wild deer stand on your front door step in the night.
> If I can get enough punky rot out of the hole, I'll use cedar. If not, I'll scab a piece of 1" rebar to the bottom of the new post.
> It's in the middle and never wobbled much in the first place.
> 
> ...


You raise some very strong points...When is, "just good enough...??...good enough" when you just want to get a job done. 

In that regard, any and all advise thus far is..."good enough"...and the job will be done.

I tend to be a freaking obsessive "do it the best I can do it" kind of person, which is a fault some times. I also tend to be governed strongly by tradition and going as naturally onto the land as I possibly can, in addition to not "re-inventing" any wheels while I do it. With that, if my forebears with just some traditional knowledge and local materials they harvest and shape themselves could put in a post in ground to last 350 years with little upkeep...Then that is the style and method I am going to use and offer up to folks when they ask...

P.S.

Sounds like a beautiful place where you live...Many blessings for sure!! I love the climbing and trekking in BC!


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

gj13us said:


> This guy says concrete is o.k.
> http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/03/footing-2/
> 
> And I checked one of his references, IBC section 2304.11.4.1, "Posts and columns supporting permanent structures that are embedded in concrete that is in direct contact with the earth, embedded in concrete that is exposed to the weather or in direct contact with the earth shall be of preservative-treated wood."
> ...


With out a doubt...Concrete (OPC) is used everywhere in our current cultures infrastructure. From highways, byways and sky-lines, to pole barns. It is done, and there is an on going debate between those that "sell this practice" and use it versus those that avoid it at all cost.

I would suggest, that it is pretty clear in most first world nations much of the infrastructure is falling apart, and architects today are happy if they can "hope" something they design last only 100 years.

I tend to be "old school" and expect the structures (barn, homes, public spaces) I design...*to last at least 500 years minimum.*..and do this from natural materials...cost about the same...and be much easier to maintain, compared to the 100year industrialized methods. Something modern OPC does not afford the user at all.

I would also point out, as a designer-builder the IBC (as are most building codes) suggest only..."minimum standards"...and not best practice. I would also offer that much of IBC and related codes systems are exceedingly political in nature, with huge industry lobbyist behind the standards they want to support the products and methods they sell...again this does not reflect...best practice.

But agree...that is just my view of it all...


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

I'll let you all do the math.
Hottest in the shade last summer was +47C. The valley bottom was like an arm pit.
The west side, afternoon side, of my house has a grape vine trellis 14' high and 40' long, 
I use 2 vines for total coverage and shade. That's good for a cut of 10 - 15C at 4PM in my west-side kitchen.
No, you can't see out until October.

The "good enough" trellis is 24" out from the house. 
If the ladder ever fell over, you can climb around on the trellis like Jack & the Beanstalk.
I let the pickers' kids do that, they used a picture on their Christmas card with the local snow-capped mountains for background.

So, the talk here was about posts for a clothes line. That trellis is 100% 2x4's, scabbed together.
Two runs of heavy page wire sheep fencing, 40' long. Strong enough to climb on.
Good enough to dry wet undies, I should think. I guess it's a guy thing, I have no pegs.


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