# Advice on finishing madrone



## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm making a book shelf out of madrone. Construction didn't go so well but the frame is done.

Now I have to finish it. I made some samples and ran them by my girlfriend. The one she liked best was the one with shellac.

I've got some shellac (the mix it yourself jar from Rockler) but I've never really used it before. I think the conventional method is brushing it on, which is fine. Can it also be rubbed on with a terry towel?

I read that you don't usually need to sand between coats of shellac. But one of the (hastily created) sample with shellac looked like it needed to be sanded down. But am I correct in assuming that I would sand right through the shellac pretty fast?

I'm actually kind of excited to try out shellac. I realize the protection it gives isn't great. I have a can of Minwax paste finishing wax I was going to top on top of the shellac, at the end.

I figured I should seek the advice of my betters.

Thank you.


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## slevapaul (Aug 25, 2012)

For any furniture, finishing plays an important role. So it should be done neatly and eventually depends through out the furniture. Furniture needs the better finishing and hence the dark colored painting best suit the home furniture.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Purrmaster said:


> I'm making a book shelf out of madrone. Construction didn't go so well but the frame is done.
> 
> Now I have to finish it. I made some samples and ran them by my girlfriend. The one she liked best was the one with shellac.
> 
> ...


I've never worked with any finish that it wasn't best to sand between coats. Anything you put on wood will raise the grain and make it fuzzy so the finish will be better if you sand between coats. I've never seen much benefits from finishing with shellac. I often use a dewaxed shellac as a barrier coat over pine knots or use the orange shellac to age the finish when finishing new parts on antiques. In the end I finish with a oil based polyurethane most of the time.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

How delicate is shellac? I don't mind sanding between coats. But I don't want to go hog wild and sand through it. Should I use 220 grit? Something higher or lower? And will stearated papers (i.e. 3M Sandblaster, Norton 3X) screw up the shellac? I've not had a problem using those papers with polyurethane or stain.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never had much trouble sanding shellac. Its a little harder than lacquer sanding sealer but you shouldn't have any trouble sanding it with 220 paper. Stearated paper is alright to use with shellac. Just make sure with any paper that you clean the surface off before applying another coat. The idea in sanding between coats is just to smooth out the roughness caused by raising the grain. You don't want to sand so much that you take it off and you shouldn't try to get it completely smooth on the first coat. Sometimes it takes a several coats sanding between coats to get the smoothness desired. Softer woods take more and a lot depends on how the wood was prepared prior to finishing. As a rule of thumb you should sand wood through 180 grit before applying any chemical coating, finer if using a water based finish. 

Just a reminder, standard shellac is not compatable with polyurethane so don't use poly over your shellac.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

Thank you for the tips. I always sand to at least 220. Usually up to 400.

My first coat of brushed on shellac was not smooth. I used a terry towel to try rubbing some on. I'm using some larger scrap pieces of madrone I have left over to practice on. One sides gets brushed and the other gets rubbed.

The finish so far was rough and clearly uneven. Which I am 99% sure is the fault of my technique.


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## Bill White 2 (Jun 23, 2012)

Terrycloth is gonna make a mess. Too much lint.
Wipe on finish:
I use a wiping varnish applied with old tee shirt pads that are well washed to de-lint.
Polycrapithane has a place, but only on high use areas such as tabletops.
Just my opinion, and it is worth exactly what ya paid for it.
Bill


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

Update: After putting on more coats of shellac I was able to sand it down to a pretty smooth finish using regular old sandpaper from 220 to 2,000 grit. 

And then I made the idiot mistake of using some Turtle Wax polishing compound and it bit right through the shellac (it was silicone free polish). 

I'm still getting streak marks and such from putting down the shellac. I'm hoping the sanding will take those out. I put a little bit of turpentine in the next batch of shellac. It's supposed to retard the drying a bit, giving me more time to lay down the shellac.

And if I may ask.... what alcohol do you guys use to dissolve the shellac? I'm using the Klean Strip "green" denatured alcohol. Even after grinding up the shellac flakes it's been almost a week and the shellac hasn't dissolved fully. It will dissolve fully eventually but it shouldn't take this long, yes?


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I think the first thing you should do is wash the piece down with a wax and grease remover frequently changing rags to get rid of the compound. Anytime you put on a new finish regardless of what it is I would let the finish thoroughly dry before using a compound or wax on it. With many finishes it takes two weeks to fully cure. Denatured alcohol is used to thin shellac but I believe I would use methanol (wood alcohol) to loosen dried shellac to get the affected finish off. I believe the root of your problems is the Kleen Strip alcohol. I haven't used it but in my experience if it is environmentally friendly its not woodworker friendly. I would buy another brand and try to mix your shellac flakes again. If it has been a week I wouldn't use it if it did finally dissolve.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

Heh. I kind of had the same thought. I've noticed that "greener" products often just don't work as well as their old, nasty, toxic counterparts. In some cases the more toxic thing is used because it's cheaper than the less toxic one. But sometimes the less toxic one is less efficacious. 

The main reason I got the "green" stuff is because that's what Rockler had in their own finishing sample area. I figured if the Rockler guys use it themselves at the store, it can't be all bad.

The shellac will eventually dissolve. It did last time. It's just aggravating to have to wait a week or more for it to dissolve.

For the next batch I was thinking of just getting a bottle of 190 proof Everclear. At least it wouldn't have poison built into it.

As far as the streaking goes, I think it's my technique. I apply the shellac along the grain in long wipes. But when wipe #1 overlaps slightly with wipe #2 the pad, or the brush, starts to stick. Which I *think* is what is causing the streaking because my shellac applicator starts dragging along when it sticks.

To polish the shellac to a high gloss, what do you use? I've heard of people using pumice and rottenstone. I may pick some up next week.

I may also be not be waiting long enough, as you suggested. But I had read that shellac fully dries in about an hour. Something about the difference between a film forming finish. I don't mess it after just one hour, of course. I usually give it 4 hours to a day before I mess with it. But perhaps even that isn't long enough.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

On the shellac you are mixing, I'm afraid the Kleen Strip alcohol may not be chemically compatible with the shellac and may not give you the durability you desire if used. It sounds like you correctly mixed the shellac so I would point my finger at the solvent. Temperature may also be affecting it if it is cold where you live. I stopped using the flakes and started buying the premixed stuff because I don't have time to fool with it.

If your finish is dragging with the brush just as you applied then it is too thick. Streaking can occur sometimes if you brush a product too long and create brush marks where it wouldn't otherwise. I use a soft natural brush when I brush any finish and apply a even wet coat and get off of it. From the time you draw it out of the can it starts thickening so if you brush it a lot it introduces more air into it thickening it faster. Some streaking is expected on the first coat anyway. Applying by hand you can't keep from having the finish thicker and thinner in spots but that goes away with more coats. The drying time listed on any product is based on the weather being warm and dry so your 1 hour drying time should be ok if it is warm and dry. Letting it dry 4 hours to a day would be better. If you are working in cold damp weather then it may take 24 hours to achieve the same thing. 

I would be patient on rubbing and polishing the final finish. Let the finish fully cure getting good and hard. Since you are hand brushing the finish I would start with 400 grit paper and sand the finish flat and consecutively change paper until I sand with 2000 grit paper. I often apply the sandpaper to a Glit sanding pad with spray adhesive. After the final sand I rub the finish with 3m rubbing compound. On table tops I use a 7" auto polisher with a lambswool bonnet on it and buff the finish to a final polish.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

The nights have been getting cold here, yes. And this is Oregon, so it's always pretty humid. I measured out the alcohol exactly (6 fluid ounces for the 2 ounces of dried shellac flakes). I've mostly changed from brushing to using cotton muslin (gotten from a fabric store for quilt backing) to "rub" the finish on. Bushing creates too thick a coat. But I'm still running into the same problems of the shellac getting sticky and causing the pad to drag. Which causes streaks. It just dries too darn fast.

I'm going to leave the finish alone for a couple of days. I ran out of batch 1 of shellac and have to wait for batch 2 to dissolve anyways. I'm trying to get a warm, high gloss finish with no scratch/swirl/streak marks.

If I hadn't already read that shellac is challenging I would have thrown up my hands and gone back to polyurethane.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Brushing any finish is always a pain. The only time I brush a finish is when I'm working in someone’s house and overspray is a issue. I think you would be much happier if you would get a air compressor and sprayer. If you have a Harbor Freight near you I believe you could get a compressor, air hose and sprayer for not much over a hundred bucks. It wouldn't be enough air to finish something as big as a wardrobe but would work fine for small projects. The results you are wanting really needs to be sprayed. A high gloss finish will show every defect and brush mark on the project and would take a great deal of hand work to overcome.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

I've been trying to avoid moving to spraying. Not just because of the cost (I've read good things about Harbor Freight's spray equipment) but because I'm not sure where I'd do it. The area I'm working in has objects stuffed into every nook and cranny. if I spray inside the barn (my shop space) I'm concerned it's going to get all over everything, including stuff that has sentimental value.

If I spray outside I'm concerned about wind and, mostly, rain. It rains 9 out of 10 days here.

I might be able to slap some scrap pine together to make a small spray booth but it would be really small. I do have a respirator already, thankfully.

I'm considering trying my hand at French polishing. On scrap test pieces, of course.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Purrmaster said:


> I've been trying to avoid moving to spraying. Not just because of the cost (I've read good things about Harbor Freight's spray equipment) but because I'm not sure where I'd do it. The area I'm working in has objects stuffed into every nook and cranny. if I spray inside the barn (my shop space) I'm concerned it's going to get all over everything, including stuff that has sentimental value.
> 
> If I spray outside I'm concerned about wind and, mostly, rain. It rains 9 out of 10 days here.
> 
> ...


I have very crude conditions myself to spray. I had a storm destroy my main shop a couple of years ago and I had to move my woodshop into my finishing shop. Right now I either finish outside or I wait until I going to quit for the day and spray inside. The items you are worried the overspray you can cover with a plastic dropcloth. Walmart sells a roll that has 10- 10'x10' sheets in it for about eight bucks. I don't seem to have too much problem with overspray even with polyurethane. Years ago I had a rented building where one end of it I created a spray room by making walls with a wood frame and polyethylene plastic in the center. This worked very well and was cheap.


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## Purrmaster (Jul 19, 2012)

Mr. Neul,

You were correct, by the way, about the "green" denatured alcohol being inferior. I got regular (cheaper) SLX denatured alcohol and it's dissolving the new batch of shellac flakes quite a bit more quickly.

I'l look into spray equipment in the future. Thank you for the assistance. 

I got some pumice and rottenstone for french polishing. I imagine I'll screw that up pretty badly.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm already prejudice against these environmental products because the environmental movement has hurt my business but I end up purchasing some from time to time when that’s all that is available and I normally have to throw it away and drive a great distance to get something that works. Sometimes these products work but are twice as labor intensive as the non-environmental stuff so I try my best not to buy any. I finished a cedar fence this spring and went to one of these box stores to get a oil based fence stain I normally use only to find out all they had was water based fence stain. I thought it can't be all that bad but the stuff wouldn't spray very good so it ended up taking me two days to stain the fence where I bid the job for one days work. I think if I double my labor to finish fences I won't be staining them anymore. Another case of the environmentalist killing jobs.


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Couldn't agree more Steve. Every green Eco-friendly product out there that I've tried is crap.


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