# How to tint water based lacquer so it yellows like oil based poly



## cain8885 (Aug 21, 2009)

Hi all,
Ive posted before about spray finishing and I am finally taking the plunge. I am very much looking forward to stopping using oil based poly and moving towards a water based lacquer product sprayed with my new hvlp.

However, As I have begun testing with various water based products it has become clear that I do like the golden/yellow/warm tone that the oil based poly gave to wood. In particular I have made use of a good amount of birch, and when covered in oil based poly it has a nice yellow warm glow, but the water based products ive tested (general finishes polyacrylic) are ''too'' clear. 

I am hoping to use a ML campbel agualente (water based lacquer) on an upcoming project made of birch and was curious if anyone has had any luck tinting such a product to produce more of a warm tone. 

I am thinking this might be preferential to trying to stain the birch.

Thanks for any advice
B


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

There's a misunderstanding about the use of the term "lacquer". Manufacturers can call their products whatever they want in an effort to get you to buy them.

Knowing what chemicals you are using will tell you what you can use with them. If you're in doubt about what finish material you have, one way of knowing is to see what is recommended for thinning and clean up.

A true "lacquer" will have lacquer thinner as a thinner. It's a solvent that's acetone based. The finish dries fast. Water based finishes have water as a thinner, and they dry fast also. Not quite as fast as solvent based lacquer. But to merchandise the product to those that are familiar with "lacquer", they call it "waterbase lacquer", which is in reality a waterbase polyurethane.

So, back to the question. Since it's a water based product, you can use any tint that is compatible with water, like Tints All, or even water based acrylic paint will work.


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## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Use an amber shellac as a sealer. If you want to stick to all WB products Target Coatings makes a WB shellac.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

When using lacquer wethwe water based or nitrocellulose I reccomend spraying a sandi g sealer first. Then spray a clear coat of lacquer. 

Then you can add either a water or alcohol based dye to the lacquer. Ussually a few drops of am de will be sufficiet. As you spray each layer will add depth to lacquer and become more amber. when you get the desired color, switch back to clear. 


I really like Transtint dye available from all the big names. Mcfadden also makes good l dye for tinting lacquer. 


Amber shellac used as a sa ding sealer will work too, but I so t think it looks as nice as multiple coats of tinted lacquer.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Yyou can also mix brown, red, orange dyes with amber to get different ages looks.


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## cain8885 (Aug 21, 2009)

Hi Thanks for all the ideas everyone. What is the purpose of the sanding sealer first? What does that accomplish that simply building with the lacquer does not?

Thanks,
B


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Sanding sealer is a thick maluable finish. It serves two main purposes. 

1. It seals the wood grain so your lacquer isn't simply absorbed into the wood. Believe, Sanding Sealer saves you a lot of time. 
2. It dries quickly, and you can sand it with 220 grit, spray again, knock it flat with steel wool. You don't even need to spray SS, it brushes on just as well. 
* It sands in a matter of seconds, so its much less labor intensive than just lacquer.


Then you will have a nice flat surface that is lacquer compatible. You will find the lacquer will spray on, adhere, and dry more even with the sealer. Polyurethane, Lacquer, and vinyl based sealer and even shellac can go under lacquer with good results. Just remember, you can't put urethane on top of lacquer. Shellac doesn't do well ontop of lacquer either. It has to do with the rates at which they expand and contract in humidityand temperature. 

Amber shellac with a few drops of red tint under Lacquer. It is sanded flat right now because its going to get more lacquer later. 








Polyurethane Sanding Sealer under pure Nitrocellulose lacquer, this is buffed. The poly sanding sealer adds just a hint of amber tint. 








Here it is showing the luster of lacquer


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

Red tinted Lacquer sanding sealer under blue tinted lacquer


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Colt W. Knight said:


> Just remember, you can't put urethane on top of lacquer. Shellac doesn't do well ontop of lacquer either. It has to do with the rates at which they expand and contract in humidityand temperature.



I think we are getting a bit off track with the finishes. I was understanding the question of tinting waterbase polyurethane. There is the question of whether a sealer should be used under it, but I don't find a need to apply a sealer. Under a solvent based lacquer...yes. Waterbase polyurethane...no need. 

I wouldn't recommend using steel wool to abrade finishes, as it leaves metallic particles, which can cause discoloration, rust, and nibs if not completely removed. There are plenty of synthetic microfiber materials that work better than steel wool.

I've never had a problem with applying oil base polyurethane over lacquer. Not much of a reason to do that. There is definitely a problem with the other way around though. Lacquer over an oil base finish will cause deformations, like crazing. It may not happen immediately. DAMHIKT.


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## ash123 (Mar 14, 2010)

I use solvent based lacquers and I tint them with NGR stains.


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## Colt W. Knight (Nov 29, 2009)

The question was how to tint lacquer and I showed how I tint in various situations. In my experience sanding sealer is a tremendous help so I always reccomend it. There are tens of thousands of Fender guitars with a lacquer finish on top of a poly base coat. in my experience with guitar builders lacquer does not react well long term as a base coat for poly. 

Steel wool does have its problems but its cheap and with careful use I haven't had any ill effects.


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## SCHWA6970 (Nov 15, 2010)

*lacquer over poly*

I beg to differ with the post that said you can not put lacquer over poly.
As a professional finisher for going on 2 decades now I have used a poly based grain fill product under lacquer for a good part of that time. The finish is flawless and lasts forever. The product is made by ICA and is a 2 part with a catalyst I think its fp271 and I cant remember the catalyst number. ANyone looking ofr an easy to sand easy way to full fill a finish look no further than this product its the best I have ever worked with. As far as using a toner a little goes a long way if you use too much the grain of your piece will disappear. There is no problem using steel wool on a solvent or oil based finish but the water base is where you will run into problems with rust and discoloration.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

SCHWA6970 said:


> I beg to differ with the post that said you can not put lacquer over poly.
> As a professional finisher for going on 2 decades now I have used a poly based grain fill product under lacquer for a good part of that time.



A grain fill product differs from an oil base varnish or oil base polyurethane. I've had crazing and deformations when acetone based (lacquer thinner) lacquer is applied over an oil base varnish or oil base polyurethane, or oil base paint. 

Solvent based grain fillers will work under lacquer as well as oil base stains and dyes. I'm not aware of a "poly" based grain filler. I wouldn't suggest a finishing schedule that I personally had a problem with, and likewise I feel compelled to suggest the possibility of problems with chemical interactions.












 









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## jack warner (Oct 15, 2010)

lacquer and poly ------- never used on the same project. chems dont match. 
just my 35 yrs of finishing.


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## SCHWA6970 (Nov 15, 2010)

*lacquer over poly*

ICA catalyzed poly sealer is made to be put on under precat lacquer as a sealer and a grain fill. Millions of dollars in furniture now belonging to some of the most effluent folks in the Detroit area tell the tale not one complaint about any finish failures. I am not saying to spray lacquer over minwax poly or anything similar. I stay away from that particular type of finish altogether its too finicky and hard to work with.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

SCHWA6970 said:


> ICA catalyzed poly sealer is made to be put on under precat lacquer as a sealer and a grain fill. Millions of dollars in furniture now belonging to some of the most effluent folks in the Detroit area tell the tale not one complaint about any finish failures. I am not saying to spray lacquer over minwax poly or anything similar. I stay away from that particular type of finish altogether its too finicky and hard to work with.


You might be referring to a "polyester" finish.












 









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