# Steel Wool and Vinegar to age wood



## walleye vision (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm planning on building a distressed farmhouse table with pine and heard about aging the wood by making your own stain with vinegar and steel wool. Has anyone done this, and if so, does it turn out ok? What would you recommend I use as a top coat? I've read wax is not good for kitchen tables due to hot and cold items causing marks. I don't want it to be shiny so I don't know if poly would be a good idea, unless there is a true matte poly. What do you guys think? I'll take all the help and advice I can get.

Thanks,

WV


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've used vinegar to neutralize sodium hydroxide before but I couldn't see that it affected the color any. I think you would have better luck with transtint dyes or perhaps potassium permanganite. The potassium permanganite is available at walmart in the pet department, for fish.

I think polyurethane would be the best finish. It is available in a satin finish so it wouldn't have so much of a plastic look to it.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Steel wool & vinegar is a very old staining technique, sometimes called "ebonizing." It works with the tannins in hardwoods. Not enough tannin in any softwood to do a respectable job. Go ahead, make up the brew and test it in a scrap of pine, then a scrap of oak to see the difference. Then, find a stain for pine that looks like the color you will see in oak.
SN: Potassium permanganate is some of the nastiest, toxic S$$T on this planet. It can and will destroy the genetic code, the DNA, in any living cell it touches in less than 15 minutes. Not on my table. I used it in electron microscopy research decades ago. . . . don't care if I ever see it again.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Here's a video of the process:


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Fantastic link, Julie! Thanks.
It never would have occurred to use very strong tea as a additional source of tannins. Of course! I'd guess 5+ tbsp black tea simmered in a liter/quart of water for an hour to leach out as much tannin as you are likely to get. Cheap tea has more tannin.

Without the tea, I know home-brew wine making stores sell jars of grape tannin, all by itself, to boost the flavor of some fruit wintes.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Robson Valley said:


> Steel wool & vinegar is a very old staining technique, sometimes called "ebonizing." It works with the tannins in hardwoods. Not enough tannin in any softwood to do a respectable job. Go ahead, make up the brew and test it in a scrap of pine, then a scrap of oak to see the difference. Then, find a stain for pine that looks like the color you will see in oak.
> SN: Potassium permanganate is some of the nastiest, toxic S$$T on this planet. It can and will destroy the genetic code, the DNA, in any living cell it touches in less than 15 minutes. Not on my table. I used it in electron microscopy research decades ago. . . . don't care if I ever see it again.


 I hadn't heard anything before about potassium permanganate being hazardous so I looked it up. Of all the materials one might find in the finishing shop, potassium permanganate is probably one of the least hazardous. In some places the medical community uses it to clean wounds. A lot of the dyes are far more hazardous. Certainly the solvents are.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Steve: I stand my my research experience. Potassium permanganate is ugly nasty. Look it up all you like. Most non-scientific websites are exactly that = hocus pocus hooey. Those websites have no commercal nor health & safety interests at all.

On the other hand, iron acetate (iron & vinegar) is old. It is benign.
Reacting with tannins in woods, the effects are every bit as good as they were two(?) centuries ago.


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## kkalin78 (Dec 20, 2012)

I used this method to ebony red oak. It worked fine in my opinion. To get dark color as my wife wanted I put three coats with slight sanding between by 320 grid ( to remove raised grain )

As top coat I put satin oil polyurethane (7 layers due to a mistake  so far it survived direct hits by bottlescrew which my 2 years son very likes  The top coat was pressed down by hit and it didn't scratches.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

kkalin78: This is biochemistry. Not like stain, not like putting icing on some cake.
Good to read that it worked well, good to read that several applications are workable.
The more input, the more experiences, posted in this thread the better.


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

In the interest of providing information, this is a MSDS link for Potassium Permanganate, 0.1N, toxicological data is listed in Section 11. _I don't know what concentration of potassium permanganate is used for woodworking, this was just the first MSDS I found.
_
I'll leave it to those interested to draw their own conclusions. 

It is a wise practice to read and understand the labels and warning statements for any compound you are thinking about using before purchase or application.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

trc65
Just to read the labels is not to understand just how nasty KMnO4 really is.
I speak only from years of PhD & published research experience, not hoopla in a website based upon car-load quantities (as I have learned).

I shoot compressed nitrogen gas (79% of the air you breathe) in my airbrushes for painting. The MSDS is 18 pages.
a) nitrogen does not support life. (Duh!)
b) do not drop the gas bottle on it's head. At 3000psi, a broken bottle is one Hello of a bang.
c) other really comforting statements

You don't need KMnO4 for any reason. Nasty crap, very pretty purple color, use V. riparia grape jiuse as a substitute.


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## Longknife (Oct 25, 2010)

Robson Valley said:


> I speak only from years of PhD & published research experience, not hoopla in a website .


Any references to back that up? As I understand it KMnO4 is used for water purification and in medicine for treatment of ingrowing nails and eczema. Will that treatment destroy the patients DNA within 15 minutes?
It's also used to extract cocain from coca leafs but in that case the helth issues might be irrelevant.

Anyway, this is not my point. My question is if there are any advantages of these "ebonizing" methods over a dye that you can apply to any wood in almost any colour you wish?
Why fiddle with rusty nails, vinegar, tea and lethal(?) chemicals when you can use an alcohol based dye?


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Longknife:
Steel wool and vinegar is probably significant only because of its historical application.
There's not much to do: jar of vinegar, add steel wool, let it sit. The two ingredients have been available for a long, long time (wine vinegar, for example).
Because it doesn't work well on woods with relatively low tannin content (add tea), I'm sure
it helped to encourage research into other chemistries for wood stains.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

Longknife said:


> My question is if there are any advantages of these "ebonizing" methods over a dye that you can apply to any wood in almost any colour you wish?
> Why fiddle with rusty nails, vinegar, tea and lethal(?) chemicals when you can use an alcohol based dye?


I was just reading an older issue of Fine Woodworking and there was an article on working with ebony. In it there was a small sub-section on ebonizing wood. The author of the article, Garrett Hack, recommends black water-based aniline dye. He said woods that mimic Gabon ebony are rift and plain sawn cherry and pear and to some extent walnut. In oak and ash, the dominant grain turns deep black. 

The Wood Whisperer did a video on dyes: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/you-and-dye/

I have a large project where I plan on ebonizing oak. I like the idea of pre-mix because you don't have to worry about getting the ratios right on the 2nd, 3rd and so-on batch.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

I would imagine your laboratory reagents were a different concentration than something he'd buy at a pet store.

In any case, I assume all wood stains will be hazardous. They are reacting with and binding semipermanently with an organic substrate. I'm an organic substrate, so I wear nitrile gloves and wear a respirator when staining.


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## DST (Jan 10, 2011)

so how does all this compare to fuming oak to change its colour?


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Read gilgaron post #15. Stains are exactly that = stains. The implication is that they bind, biochemically, to the organic matter that they contact. Not simple. They clamp on permanently.
That upscrews biological function and we call that poison. (you got a better term?) KMnO4 still has great medicinal value becaue of it's solubility and it's fast acting killing power. 
As a wood working furniture stain, = not a friggin' chance in this day and time.

If you need more stain, get up here. I'll smear a handful of my grape syrup on your shirt.
I'll give you 10 years to get your shirt clean.
In the meantime, we will sit down to a civilized breakfast of my (scratch) waffles with
sour cream and grape syrup, watch the birds on the seed feeders, while the mountains turn through orange to peach to yellow to white and the sun begins another day.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Robson Valley said:


> Read gilgaron post #15. Stains are exactly that = stains. The implication is that they bind, biochemically, to the organic matter that they contact. Not simple. They clamp on permanently.
> That upscrews biological function and we call that poison. (you got a better term?) KMnO4 still has great medicinal value becaue of it's solubility and it's fast acting killing power.
> As a wood working furniture stain, = not a friggin' chance in this day and time.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is we should send all the finishing work off to China so none of these products pollute the USA.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Nope. Make a thoughtful choice. Be neat and tidy and follow recommended guidelines for the disposal of leftovers. I keep a bag or two (heavy plastic bags from 40lb of wood stove pellets,) of sawdust, carving chips and wood shavings to soak up and bind left over stains and paints. I recall that there's a couple of small, cheap paint brushes in the current bag!
My thinking is that I'd rather have paints/stains binding to wood rather than circulating downstream in aquatic environments.


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## RobWoodCutter (Oct 28, 2009)

Robson Valley said:


> Potassium permanganate is ugly nasty."
> 
> Ah yes "Potassium permanganate", fun stuff....add one more ingrediant and process for about 30 minutes and you have contact explosives. (Recalling from Jr.high School days in Germany, more dangerous than a fire cracker because of handling, but just as loud.:yes:.)


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Wasn't KMnO4 the catalyst in old fashioned steam turbine motors driven by hydrogen peroxide? Drives my WW II torpedo.


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## thetexaswoodworks.com (May 30, 2012)

Be careful with the steel wool. You can think that you have all the little whiskers out and apply the finish. Maybe years later you get little dark spots under the finish-rust from where moisture got to the overlooked steel wool. This stuff is great for refinishers and brings in the business, but lousy for the customers. Brass wool is better-no rust.


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## Webster (Mar 6, 2009)

Walleye,

Try liquid plumber or similar (sodium hydroxide). Leave it on there till it dries. No need to neutralize.
Test it out on scrap piece to make sure this is what you're looking for.

Rick


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## walleye vision (Mar 3, 2013)

Webster said:


> Walleye,
> 
> Try liquid plumber or similar (sodium hydroxide). Leave it on there till it dries. No need to neutralize.
> Test it out on scrap piece to make sure this is what you're looking for.
> ...


Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.


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## Smith Brother (Dec 9, 2012)

I made a farm style drop leaf kitchen table in the early 70's. $29.00, pine. before I stained it I took a wood mallet, drove a small finish nail in same, then cut off the head. I hammered in worm holes randomly. Then when I applied the dark stain the holes turned very dark, and very realistic. I also used pine with some knots. I used a poly top coat, and the table is still in use. Served us well to say the least. I used 4X4's for legs, and took a 6" round wire brush on a high speed electric drill and run it up and down the grain to dig out the soft grain. Worked well, looks like it was well weathered before being put to use as legs. 

I can't post a picture, but interested send me an address, and I will send pic's. 

I wish you well,

Dale in Indy 
[email protected]


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You need to rinse off and neutralize sodium hydroxide. It's the chemical used in dip stripping tanks and will re-activate in damp weather and is a irritant to the skin and will interfere with any protective coating applied over it. Vinegar or oxalic acid will neutralize it. Sodium hydroxide will just give kind of a green tint to the wood and will do major damage to hardwoods like oak.


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## rv1458 (Aug 29, 2013)

Any updates on your table? Is it finished? Did you try some of these suggestions? Find something you liked?


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## Manuka Jock (Jun 27, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> I've used vinegar to neutralize sodium hydroxide before but I couldn't see that it affected the color any.


 Steve , you forgot the steel wool .
Drop a bit of iron in vinegar and watch it colour up


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## adot45 (Jul 8, 2013)

*vinegar, steel wool, tea bag*

Here is an item made of tulip poplar before staining.








Here is one already stained.


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## walleye vision (Mar 3, 2013)

rv1458 said:


> Any updates on your table? Is it finished? Did you try some of these suggestions? Find something you liked?


I ended up using regular stain. I liked the look of the wood with the ebonizing solution. Unfortunately, the wife didn't.


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## adot45 (Jul 8, 2013)

Here's an old thread about the subject. See post #29 for pictures of this type stain on tulip poplar. I like this finish and use it a lot.


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