# Drying with DNA



## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

I'm trying this. Dave Paine posted this link which kicked off the idea.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/

A chestnut came down last year at my brother in law's house and I grabbed some of the trunk. Cut up a bit today for Christmas presents and turned it rough round. 











This was my first time turning wet wood. Turned great, but by the time I turned all of these there was a light layer of rust on the lathe bed. A quick vac and cleaning with WD-40 and Scotch-Brite pad took care of that. Then into a bag with DNA for a soak. 











After several hours I took it out to dry out. I will weigh this each day until the weight is consistent. 
Let me know if you have suggestions for success.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I am happy if my post got someone to try this.

I will be interested in your results. I hope this works.

I have only turned one small piece of wet locust which was cut down this July. I was surprised how much water is released. No surprise you had to clean the lathe - and yourself.

David R Smith's blog seems to have more examples of the wood being turned to a rough "final" shape, but if the principal is water being exchanged for DNA and then the DNA evapourating faster, it should still work.

My little piece of locust is about 5in long and 2 1/2in diameter with a 1 1/2in hole bored in the middle.

I have been letting this air dry just to see how long it takes. 
25 Nov wt = 10 oz.
5 Dec wt = 9.1 oz
15 Dec wt = 8.55 oz
19 Dec wt = 8.35 oz

So 3 weeks and I am not yet fully dry.

I think I may have to try a piece with DNA.


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm really not convinced this approach does what Mr Smith claims.

First, the process by which the water and the DNA will "trade places" in the cell structure of the wood is osmosis -- and this can be a slow process.

Second, osmosis ends when the balance of DNA and water reaches equilibrium -- meaning that you'll never get all the water out of the wood unless you constantly remove water from the bag the wood is sitting in.

It may speed up the process of drying, but don't expect miracles.

_edit ... to be clear, I'm not trying to suggest he didn't get the results he describes. What I doubt is that those results can be attributed entirely to the DNA soaking technique.

_


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## knika (Jan 15, 2012)

I think that it also depends on the location you are in. A climate with low humidity as opposed to one with high humidity will result in more weight loss. The same wood in Arizon will loose more moisture than wood in Seattle. Also alchol will absorb its weight in water meaning that 6 oz. of alchol will remove 6 oz. of water. 

Jack


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

I'm not expecting miracles but thought it was worth a try. I know the blog examples are from rough-final shape but thought if I could dry some blanks this way or even speed the process it would help. They are in the house now where it is relatively dry. We'll see how it goes.


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## Improv (Aug 13, 2008)

I think the front end of your experiment needs some work. You should keep it in the alcohol until a constant weight is obtained (after drying off the surface solvent) and regularly change out the solvent for fresh solvent to be confident that the alcohol has both penetrated the whole volume of wood and the water in those regions has been extracted. You may find this takes several days or much longer to reach. The wiki page on pressure-treated wood ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure-treated_wood ), particularly the section on steeping (what you are doing), a good starting point for more detailed information.

Regards,
Steve


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Dave Paine said:


> I am happy if my post got someone to try this.
> 
> I will be interested in your results. I hope this works.
> 
> ...


Dave, 
What brand/model scales are you using. I have looked on Amazon for scales and there is a big price range. Also, some models have good and bad reviews. I am wanting to purchase a scale but don't want to buy something that is going to break. Not so worried about accuracy as long as it is repeatable.
Tom


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## BassBlaster (Nov 21, 2010)

I dont have anything about the DNA. Just wanted to say that if you wax your lathe bed like you would your saw top, you'lll avoid the rusting from turning green wood. I keep mine waxed and wipe it down with a dry rag after turning green wood.:thumbsup:


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## Bonanza35 (Jan 20, 2011)

TomC said:


> Dave,
> What brand/model scales are you using. I have looked on Amazon for scales and there is a big price range. Also, some models have good and bad reviews. I am wanting to purchase a scale but don't want to buy something that is going to break. Not so worried about accuracy as long as it is repeatable.
> Tom


I bought a digital kitchen scale at Walmart. It measures in 1 gram units and works great for this purpose. I think I spent $13 on it. I have to reset the "tare" regularly but it's not even a bother. I don't mind spending $ for quality but I think this is a good place to skimp since you're not looking for actual weight, just weight relative to earlier measurements on the same scale.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

I've been using this one for a few years for shipping, pinewood derby etc. and now this. It's been great.

Amazon.com: UltraShip 55 lb. Digital Postal Shipping & Kitchen Scale: Electronics


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

TomC said:


> Dave,
> What brand/model scales are you using. I have looked on Amazon for scales and there is a big price range. Also, some models have good and bad reviews. I am wanting to purchase a scale but don't want to buy something that is going to break. Not so worried about accuracy as long as it is repeatable.
> Tom


Tom, since you asked. I had tried to use the "postal scale" my wife purchased some time ago, but it was not showing sufficient accuracy in the hundreds of ounces.

In the meantime my wife purchased an "Eat Smart" scale for diet reasons. This weighs showing two decimals. So for postage purposes, and my drying experiment, I use this scale.

The postal scale had also started to be problematic, as in not showing a consistent weight. I think the scale is in the electronic "death throws" phase.


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks guys, I will look at Walmart to avoid shipping. I was looking online again last night and had looked at the 55 lb one at Amazon. I agreed I'm not looking for accuracy but a trend in decreasing weight. I have a couple of bowls drying since mid October but don't know initial weight. I was planning on waiting until mid April to finish turning. I want to do more green wood and need a scale.
Tom


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## duncsuss (Aug 21, 2009)

I picked up a digital scale at Harbor Freight, I think it was $9.99 with a coupon. For tracking items that are drying, I use it on the grams setting.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Update. After a couple days I tried to speed things up by putting the pieces in our utility room with the heater, water softener etc. couple more days and there was substantial checking. 











I think I can still use some of this but it certainly didn't help. After the alcohol I should have sealed the ends. The smaller two pieces have stabilized and are ready for use. larger. Ones still loosing a bit but I may see what I can do with one of them.


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## RedAlder (Dec 24, 2012)

Shop Dad said:


> Update. After a couple days I tried to speed things up by putting the pieces in our utility room with the heater, water softener etc. couple more days and there was substantial checking.
> 
> I think I can still use some of this but it certainly didn't help. After the alcohol I should have sealed the ends.


Other posters have made good points about your experiment.

Sealing the ends might help, I haven't tried that. After alcohol soaking I dry rough turned pieces in paper bags similar to the way paper bags are used without soaking. I don't try to speed things up too much at the beginning when drying and wouldn't recommend bringing into a warm and dry environment until they had already dried some (lost weight in your method). The paper bags can create a mini-environment around the wood that helps to slow the drying effects of the surrounding air. The alcohol helps by removing an amount of the water but you still don't want to dry the alcohol out too fast since rapid wood movement stresses the wood and because those stresses aren't equal in the length and across the grain something will give and that can form cracks. 

Some people bury their rough turned pieces in wood chips (recycled shavings from turning) to create the mini-environment for drying. I sometimes put pieces in a paper bag or cardboard box with chips, both the soaked and non-soaked ones. 

The alcohol soaking process has worked well for me with rough turnings of less than 1/2 inch thickness that have dried much faster than the several months that many turners wait for their rough turned bowls to dry for finish turning. I would think that to dry blanks like you pictured you would have to both soak them longer to leech out most of the water and let them dry a bit more slowly. Sometimes pieces still crack and split but I've rescued most of those with CA. I do the soak to speed drying and it's even worked well with fruitwood without cracks forming but, since all wood pieces are individual, I can't say scientifically that the alcohol means they won't crack as much as conventional drying. Just that it seems to help the rough turned blanks to dry faster.

I have done a couple of rough blanks like you show of apple and wild crab apple and had success with a chisel handle and a wine stopper but they were not more than 2 inches in diameter and were soaked for a bit more than a week.

Naturally, the environmental conditions where you are located will have an effect. I am in the Pacific Northwest where it is cold and wet and much different than it would be in the dry desert. I start my drying in an unheated but not freezing space.

I have also had some good results with soap solution drying of rough turned pieces and it may even help to lubricate a bit when the dried piece is finished turned. You can find lots of info on the Internet with your favorite search engine.

[Edit] I forgot to mention that if that tree was a blowdown it could have already had stress from the wind event that wasn't yet showing as cracks but would have become cracks no matter how carefully you dried it. Also, you wrote that it came down last year and, depending on how long it sat out in what kind of weather over what time period, it may have already been developing unseen crack faults that only showed up when it dried. Probably would have been advisable to make and end seal blanks as soon as possible after the tree came down. In addition, I've no experience with chestnut and it may be more prone to cracking than some other woods. Not very exact answers in my post but maybe some things to think about as you experiment.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Much of this "exchange" process has to be simple diffusion through the cell walls.
That will take time. There's no guarantee whatsoever that sealing the ends will save your work.
However, it does help to even out the rates of water loss from the sides and ends.
So one would hope.

I had 15 x 24" pieces of alder cut, 5-8" diameters. Hot waxed the ends and stacked it all away.
October was 3 years. So I decided to drag out a piece = multiple splits from end to end. By the time
I got to log #10, I was just cutting them in half with the chop saw = lost everything.
But, alder-smoked ribs, butts and chickens in my BBQ taste just fine.


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## RedAlder (Dec 24, 2012)

Robson Valley said:


> October was 3 years. So I decided to drag out a piece = multiple splits from end to end. By the time
> I got to log #10, I was just cutting them in half with the chop saw = lost everything.


It can be a good idea to remove the pith, maybe 1/2 to 1 inch on both sides of the center and slab the log into useable thickness or cut and seal blanks as soon as possible after cutting. I've had very few cracks in wood processed in that way but some warping in slabs that were stacked and stickered. Wood stored with the bark on may also include beetle "features" before it dries and is another consideration. Sometimes logs can be end sealed and stored out of the sun under a tarp for quite a while in a damp climate or I've heard of people who just put plastic bags over the ends. Some leave them outside on the ground so they will become spalted. 

But it is true that some logs will split no matter what you do and some types of wood are more stable than others.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah, it was discouraging to lose all the alder. Outdoors, under cover, no bug troubles, no fungus. Since then, I've learned that Pacific Northwest Native carvers carve alder fresh and wet. They keep it wet throughout the process which also seems to relieve some drying stresses.

It had been my intention to use a lot of it for carvings "in the round." Otherwise, I would do the standard totem pole trick and cut maybe 1/4 of the log away on the "ugly" side. Then let it air dry.

I have a 20cm x 60cm log of willow that I relieved at about the same time. Hard to keep the fungus off the wood but I managed.
Clear, straight-grained and it dried flawlessly.
True, hard to turn a pin from a log piece seasoned that way!


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## RedAlder (Dec 24, 2012)

@Robson Valley

I turned a goblet out of green alder (quarter-sawn end grain that I roughed to a cylinder, coated the whole cylinder with end seal and waited July, Aug. and Sept.) in one session to final form so it didn't have time to dry out while turning, then immediately saturated it with Danish oil finish and it dried fine with no cracks. I did keep it in a paper bag for a while while drying and added more DO when the previous coat became dry a few times. It didn't warp either and frankly, I was surprised.

I've heard that willow can be smelly depending on where it is grown, but I haven't tried turning any of it. People say that it is very white and straight grained so not as interesting for turning. Does it make nice carvings? I have a friend who carves and he likes to use yellow cedar but I don't know if you get that up your way. Old growth with small tight grain seems to be better for detail carving but of course that stuff is expensive if you have to buy it.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Merry Christmas to RedAlder and all!

Big willow across my street was taken down. I selected what I wanted, they cut it for me and I spent the rest of the day with the crew, cleaning up. Only piece of willow I have. Snow white. See nothing in the wood so far but the seasoning process has been flawless with 1/4 of the log cut away.

I read success in posts above when you can slow down the rate of drying. Correct. There is a Diamond Willow furniture shop down my street. They harvest 4-5 cords per spring, strip the bark and into numbered bins. 2012 harvest will be 2014 (sticks and canes) and the 4"+ pieces will go into furniture, 2016.
One year, spring was very hot and very dry = they lost the whole thing = cracking. 2010 spring was miserable cold and wet = best wood ever.


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## Shop Dad (May 3, 2011)

Merry Christmas all!

I turned some of the chestnut yesterday for gifts today. One of the smaller pieces became three ornaments and one of the medium pieces with minimal checking became a bottle opener. Ornaments finished with spray lacquer and the opener with Mylands friction finish.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Shop Dad said:


> I turned some of the chestnut yesterday for gifts today. One of the smaller pieces became three ornaments and one of the medium pieces with minimal checking became a bottle opener. Ornaments finished with spray lacquer and the opener with Mylands friction finish.


Merry Christmas to you also. Woke up to a white blanket on the ground, so a White Christmas in my neck of the woods. Only about 1in so pleasant to see and no shoveling. Mostly melted off.

Nice pieces. :thumbsup:

Glad you were able to get some usage out of these. You did say the source of the wood was your firewood pile, so the worse case scenario was converting rough firewood to designer firewood as Kenbo would say. :laughing:


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

*Another option - boiling the wood*

I just found this link while searching for something else.

It seems some folks have good luck with boiling the wood. Not intuitive, but may be worth a try for the next firewood batch.

http://www.woodturners.org/tech_tips/misc-pages/boiling.pdf


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## BangleGuy (Apr 24, 2012)

Dave Paine said:


> I just found this link while searching for something else.
> 
> It seems some folks have good luck with boiling the wood. Not intuitive, but may be worth a try for the next firewood batch.
> 
> http://www.woodturners.org/tech_tips/misc-pages/boiling.pdf


Thanks for posting this information. It is a very interesting process... I now wonder why boiling would reduce drying time. Possibly just the act of heating the wood to 200F will drive off some moisture during cooling? Of course if you start with semi-dry wood, then boiling may cause an increase in MC. Probably best to start with green wood where the MC is max'd for that species. 

I have done a little steam bending of wood and could see that boiling the wood would act as a 'stress relief' process, similar to that of stress relieving steel to reduce warpage. I will have to try some side by side tests with my current drying process to see how it works. I have some camphor burl that is a real PITA to dry without cracking:furious:, that may be a good test.


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## DaveTTC (May 25, 2012)

Thx for the thread guys, all an interesting read. Over here some wood workers talk about drying wood in the creek or a dam. No idea how this works but they reckon it works well on red gum.

Dave The Turning Cowboy


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