# Trying to replicate antique Van Gogh frame...



## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Hey guys. I'm new to wood working and I'm trying to replicate the original frame of Van Gogh's Almond Blossom painting, which looks like this :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Vincent_van_Gogh_1890_Almond_blossom_(2).jpg
http://journeyaroundtheglobe.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/img_7329.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...t_-_Van_Gogh_Museum_-_Almond_Blossom_1890.jpg

How would you recommend me to proceed to achieve such a finish? It looks like it might be made from cherry with a very antiqued gold leaf finish? I've never made a picture frame before, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much !

Francis


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*go to the framing shop*

Pick out the profile that most closely matches the original frame. Cherry would be a suitable wood, but any fine grained wood will do.

Mow you have to experiment in "finishing" the wood to match the original...practice, practice...etc Search the web to find what combinations of base coat and top coat will be best...faux gold leaf, aged gold leaf, etc. 

I doubt if anyone here will know the exact technique, but it is certainly possible. It's a "wood finishing" question, more than a "design" issue.:yes:


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

As Bill points out, there's going to be a lot of trial and error to get it how you want it. I'm no finishing expert, so take this with a grain of salt....it's merely how I would proceed, not a known method. There's a combination of original color, dirt, hand oils, age, and wear marks going on. Make the frame to the intended profile, choose an appropriate finish color for the wood you choose (stain and/or natural color combined with a finish coat...I would use an oil based finish to get that golden patina), and experiment to get the right ratio of each component. You could try things like dirty motor oil, grease, and/or ink toner to mimic dirt (applied sparingly in crevasses and key areas), then use something abrasive to remove some coloring to imitate the wear areas. 

Good luck, and please post some pics of both the process and the final outcome....we could all learn something from this!


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

B0b said:


> Hey guys. I'm new to wood working and I'm trying to replicate the original frame of Van Gogh's Almond Blossom painting, which looks like this :
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Vincent_van_Gogh_1890_Almond_blossom_(2).jpg
> http://journeyaroundtheglobe.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/img_7329.jpg
> ...


If you have a professional shaper, making the molding would just be a matter of grinding the knives to make it. If you have a custom mill near you they will make molder knives to any design you want however it is frightfully expensive. You could buy a molding cutter for a table saw and grind blank knives to do that but those don't cut very good and would take a bunch of sanding. 

The finish looks like the wood is a something bland like sapwood poplar or basswood with a water based fruitwood stain. Some of the high places look worn to me so you could replicate that by sanding through the finish a little in spots after the first coat. Don't sand through enough to make it white but just a little lighter.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*new to woodworking....*



B0b said:


> Hey guys. *I'm new to wood working* and I'm trying to replicate the original frame of Van Gogh's Almond Blossom painting, which looks like this :
> 
> 
> How would you recommend me to proceed to achieve such a finish? It looks like it might be made from cherry with a very antiqued gold leaf finish? I've never made a picture frame before, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
> ...





Steve Neul said:


> *If you have a professional shaper, making the molding would just be a matter of grinding the knives. *If you have a custom mill near you they will make molder knives to any design you want however it is frightfully expensive. You could buy a molding cutter for a table saw and grind blank knives to do that but those don't cut very good and would take a bunch of sanding.
> 
> The finish looks like the wood is a something bland like sapwood poplar or basswood with a water based fruitwood stain. Some of the high places look worn to me so you could replicate that by sanding through the finish a little in spots after the first coat. Don't sand through enough to make it white but just a little lighter.



I would assume that a new woodworker does not have a professional shaper... which is why I suggested going to a framing shop, where they have walls full of profiles hanging there to choose from. Now it's a finishing issue, how to achieve a matching color and texture.

Experiments and practice sample will get you very close. Maybe the folks at the framing shop will have some ideas on the finish, it won't hurt to ask.... :no:


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

I think I would experiment with the finish on scraps before I made a frame.....once I got the finish down pat, then make the frame & finish.


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## Trav (May 30, 2011)

Just buy the original throw away the painting, keep the frame and put whatever you want in it. Maybe one of those home interior deer pictures from the late 80's or a Justin Bieber poster from walmart. This way would probably save you a lot of time and would guaranty the look you want.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Buy the framewood already profiled. Save yourself months of frustration and a lot of tool money trying to replicate that. Buy extra. Experiment with the finish suggestions.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

Good frames are not cheap to buy or easy to make from scratch unless you are set up for it. Check places such as Michaels that have ready made profiles and when you find what you want get them to cut the mitres and the glass for you, keep an eye on the sale flyers they often have 40% off.


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks a lot for your input guys. Would it be unrealistic to attempt to make it only with the appropriate carving tools (knives)? With a lot of patience...


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

B0b said:


> Thanks a lot for your input guys. Would it be unrealistic to attempt to make it only with the appropriate carving tools (knives)? With a lot of patience...


No, it would be too difficult to get straight lines with carving tools. About the closest thing you do would be to get a molding plane from an antique shop but you wouldn't have very much selection for the designs of the knives.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Looks to me like you could scrounge up a few standard mouldings that when glued up together will come close to replicate a picture frame that resembles that one. No need to procure special cutters, machinery or tooling to make a frame. Many craft stores sell picture frame moulding in running lengths.

For the finish, it looks like a very plain species...not a lot of grain. It doesn't appear to have been sanded too smoothly, maybe no more than 150x. I would experiment with a medium to light brown oil base stain, something like Fruitwood (241) or Ipswich Pine (221). You should get dark and light areas. Over that use a rag and whisk gently a brass hobby paint like this to highlight the stain color.


















.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks to me to be two sticks of a bolection moulding on either side of a beveled middle piece, or a standard 3-piece mould from back in the day. Use your imagination, a router table, and some 3/4" thick stock. Its impossible to say just what that moulding would look like in profile, but you should be able to wing it. Try.


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Hey guys !

Thanks a zillion for the help, really appreciate it, especially for pointing out which stain to use. I just got a plank of basswood (what you guys recommended) and a Ramelson carving set. I had in mind to carve the frame out of planks, I really do not want to use premade frames or a router... I'm looking for a very "traditional", "homemade" style and don't mind spending 2 months on this. It's for a very special gift !

However, carving wood isn't nearly as easy as I thought... I'm not convinced I'll ever manage to do it. I'm wondering what you guys think about using a dremel or rotary shaft (flex shaft) for this? How would the result compare to using a carving set? How easier would it be?

Thanks a lot !!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*That's a bit confusing*

You don't want to use a router but will use a Dremel? What's the difference, a motor is a motor? Obviously you are not a "purist" in the strictest sense. 

Why just get close using a router, then if you wnat a hand carved look proceed with the Dremel or other hand tools?


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## tc65 (Jan 9, 2012)

IMO, if you are ruling out using a router and don't want to use pre-made moulding pieced together your only option is to buy a plow plane, some hollow and round molding planes and probably a rabbet plane as well. Then spend a couple of months learning to use them and then make your frame. 

A flex shaft rotary tool is not the way to go - if you are having problems with carving tools, just wait till you get one spinning at several thousand rpms.

I would highly recommend going the route that Cabinetman suggested and purchase pre-made pieces that you can combine to replicate the profile.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I sometimes will hand carve short pieces of molding when reparing antiques but to make enough for a picture frame is too much. I would certainly choose chisels over a dremel tool though. I can't picture making any length of molding with one of those. It's far too hard to control. The lack of equipment you have I just don't think you have a chance of completing a picture frame that you would be happy with. If you want to make the molding the traditional way then the only way is with a molding plane. http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/using-wooden-molding-planes.aspx

Buy blanks to make your own designs so you can match the molding you want. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tapered-molding-plane-iron-blanks/


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Hey guys. So I began to work on this starting with a 2x4x12" lumber and a 7/32" chisel. I managed to make something satisfactory and then bought the full sized lumbers and cut the 45° to size. I sculpted one lumber halfway through, but my Remelson chisel isn't sharp enough to continue. I bought an Arkansas slipstone, but can't get it back sharp enough and with a flat edge. I've read that the Ramelson chisel I bought is made from carbon steel which won't retain sharpness as long as tool steel. Since I can't get my chisel sharp enough, I thought about removing the bulk of the other lumbers with a low quality one and buy a fancy tool steel chisel to finish the lumbers. Could someone please recommend an affordable tool steel chisel that is already honed ? Thanks !


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## rubberduck (Jun 24, 2014)

I think realistically you're gonna need someone with a few more tools to help you out. I was gonna mention you might want to give the new moulded timber time to shrink or else the mitres will open up. 10 outta 10 for perseverance though


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## rubberduck (Jun 24, 2014)

Robson Valley said:


> Buy the framewood already profiled. Save yourself months of frustration and a lot of tool money trying to replicate that. Buy extra. Experiment with the finish suggestions.


I think this might prove to be the best answer. Where abouts do you live ?


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks for posting. I really insist to make it out with a chisel, though. I want that rustic/artisinal look. I spent about a week on this, 8-12 hours a day, and so far so good. I estimate it should take about 2 months to complete to satisfaction, which is reasonable enough for me. I just need a chisel that will stay sharp long enough to continue...

Also, what exactly do you mean by giving the wood timber time?

Thanks !


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

B0b said:


> Thanks for posting. I really insist to make it out with a chisel, though. I want that rustic/artisinal look. I spent about a week on this, 8-12 hours a day, and so far so good. I estimate it should take about 2 months to complete to satisfaction, which is reasonable enough for me. I just need a chisel that will stay sharp long enough to continue...
> 
> Also, what exactly do you mean by giving the wood timber time?
> 
> Thanks !


Only the very cheap chisels you have trouble sharpening and keeping sharp. The process of sharpening a chisel is more or less polishing the edge. If it was wood you would sand it with finer and finer paper until smooth. With steel you hone it with finer and finer sharpening stones. You first hollow grind the edge of the chisel. Then you start with a coarse stone with water. The stone looks something like granite and you do both sides until you get the loose burrs from grinding off. Then you do the same with a medium stone which the one I have looks like brown clay. From time to time rub the sharp edge against the end of your finger nail. If there is any burrs left you can feel it. By the time you finish with the medium stone there should be only the most minor burrs left. Then you hone it with a fine stone which should look white. By the time you finish with this one the edge starts having a chrome look to it. Then you move on to a extra fine stone which is black and very slick. You work the chisel until you can't feel any burrs at all against your finger nail. The chisel should feel and be close to rasor sharp at this point. Then for the final finish and to maintain it get a strip of real leather and attach it to a piece of wood. Then load the leather down with jewelrys rouge and with water strop the edge of the chisel until the edge looks like chrome. It should then be razor sharp. Then from time to time while you are using it strop the edge. You shouldn't have to completely re-sharpen with this project. Sometimes you miss a spot sharpening and have to go back to the fine stone and go from there but this doesn't happen too often.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*chisels vs gouges*

A chisel has a flat blade and a straight edge.
A gouge is shaped like a spoon.

A chisel will make straight cuts, where a gouge will allow you to enter into the surface a remove a concave portion.... scooping out the material. This is critical where there is return grain, so it won't split along the grain direction. Watch some carving videos on You Tube for tips.:yes:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/chisel-storage-box-36553/

If you want a quality tool, the Japan Woodworker will be your best source. Their steel is made of laminated layers and usually hand wrought by folding and layering and hammering together. I have several of their tools and they hold an edge like no other. Swedish steel is right up there also.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/category/12899/kawasei-spoon-bent-firmer-gouges.aspx

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/category/12631/Woodworking-Tools.aspx

Also EBay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=japanese+chisel+set


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Thank you very much for the recommendation. The blue steel Matsumura chisels looks great, but are a tad too expensive ($65+). Do you know if the white steel Japan Woodworker chisels are pre-honed and razor sharp out of the box and if they'll hold their sharpness and edge long enough? These are only $21, which looks like a steal :

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156570/14-Japan-Woodworker-Bench-Chisel.aspx


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*If your design calls for a chisel...*

These will be fine. I would think you may need a gouge as well. :yes:


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## B0b (Jun 7, 2014)

Hey guys,

So, about 2 months later (~300 hours), I'm getting almost done with the frame. It should be finished "to satisfaction" in about a week or two. Here are some sneak peek pictures :










"Glamour" work in progress picture. You can see the only three chisels I've used (Ramelson's 7/32" double bevel chisel, from their "beginner's kit", Japan Woodworker's 1/4" chisel and, recently added, Ramelson's palm handle 7/32 chisel, altough the seller seems to have mistakenly sent a 3/8" double bevel chisel).The 7/32" was used to remove the bulk from the 1.5" thick lumber and sculpt the approximate shape, the 1/4" chisel for the two small "steps" inside the frame (adjacent to the canvas) and all vertical cuts and the palm handheld one for detailed work.










Picture of one of the joints. The 45° cuts were professionally made by a carpenter...










The profile. Not exactly like Van Gogh's, but close enough... I believe the original frame is much more concave in the middle portion of the frame.










Not so straight lines, but that's what I wanted.

I've only used grit 60 and 150 sandpapers.

I've purchased Minwax's 241 stain and some bee's wax and am doing some tests. I also purchased a frame assembly kit like this :

http://www.startwoodworking.com/sit...m/files/uploads/171/4116/5-frame-assembly.jpg

However, I can't manage to get a perfect square using this. I'm wondering if someone could link me to a tutorial demonstrating an alternate way to assemble the frame? *Also, would glue alone be enough or would biscuit joints be needed?*

Thanks !


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Considering how you made the molding it looks really good. You should take up woodcarving. 

A biscuit would work for the joint. Normally it is done with a spline. Any carpenters glue would work to glue the frame together.


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