# Sapele blotching, need help!



## rivc1982 (Jan 12, 2014)

Hey all,

Decided to try sampling a finish I found on the internet for sapele and ran into an issue on the first step. This is my first attempt at finishing wood and it shows.

I tried method number 2 from this video using the same products:

http://youtu.be/7kL5IM_FCG8

When I attempt application of solar lux stain and reducer this is what I get. 










The end to the right has the 1 to 6 ratio while the side with the penny has my own mix. The 1 to 6 ratio is ridiculously red and not amber at all.

The surface comes off the jointer and then I sand with 180 to 220 on the test spots.

Anyone have any idea why it is bloching up? How can I get the finish in that video :huh:


----------



## Rick Mosher (Feb 26, 2009)

Sapele really doesn't blotch although that looks more like Honduras to me. (That doesn't really blotch either) Have you applied a sealer coat and looked at it yet? I really don't like the Solarlux reducer I would use denatured alcohol instead. The color is a different issue of course.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

rivc1982 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Decided to try sampling a finish I found on the internet for sapele and ran into an issue on the first step. This is my first attempt at finishing wood and it shows.
> 
> ...


You need to use a dye stain that is an acetone based dye. Anything that is a slow dryr using as a "reducer" solvent will rupture the grain on sapele and will cause the ticking to show real bad, which is what your seeing. After applying the dye stain, use a sealer reduced 1:1 with thinner, which is a washcoat, then apply a wipe stain to achieve the color your looking for. Then topcoat with your choice of sheen. Practice on scrap wood first.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm with Rich on the blotchy. But Sapele is already orange to start with and anything with yellowing or amber tint will enhance this. I'm no expert to all these finishes but it looks like some of the finish took and some evaporated or other. Have a lot of sapele and ribbon sapele veneers here in the shop. I'm working on sapele today....


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Im with Rick too, I dont think thats Sapale. All Sapale Ive seen has straight grain lines and flips when you apply a dye stain or straight finish. I also dont think that wood is blotchy, I just think the wood is showing alot of ticking, and thats due to the stain and the reducer type being used in the stain. An Acetone solvent based stain will not do that as the acetone will not allow the stain to dive into the wood as bad.


----------



## rivc1982 (Jan 12, 2014)

Sorry for the late reply. I've been traveling. It is definitely sapele. quarter sawn ribbon stripe. The picture just doesn't do it justice (cheapy phone cam).

I've noticed that when I reduced the dye stain considerably the "blotching" or pooling of the dye is much easier to manage. So I think Randy is on to something. I will probably give it a shot when I get back home.

Although I would like to duplicate the color finish in the video I may need to simplify the finish so I can duplicate it on all pieces with less room for error. I've taken on the task of redoing the face frames and doors of the kitchen cabinets and I am now truly understanding the complexity of the job .

Anybody have any recommendations on how to acheive the finish in this kitchen?


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

rivc1982 said:


> Sorry for the late reply. I've been traveling. It is definitely sapele. quarter sawn ribbon stripe. The picture just doesn't do it justice (cheapy phone cam).
> 
> I've noticed that when I reduced the dye stain considerably the "blotching" or pooling of the dye is much easier to manage. So I think Randy is on to something. I will probably give it a shot when I get back home.
> 
> ...


Must be the pic because I dont see any stripes on that Sapale.........

When doing certain wood species, its most of the time better to stay away from water based dyes and use aniline dyes instead mixed with fast evaporating solvents so that they dont rupture the grain. Acetone will help the dye dry faster and lay more on top and not penetrate the wood as much. To me, the picture you posted contained alot of ticking and not blotchiness.

In the picture of the kitchen cabinets, that sapale appears to not have alot of color on it. Ive seen Sapale look like that with just several coats of clear on it.

*EDIT:* Here is an example of sapale clear coated with no stain I found and its actually quarter sawn:
http://walzcraft.com/product/lodo-s351-cabinet-door/


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I think I have 2 full 4x8 sheets of veneer and 3 full sheets of 3/4 veneered mdf ribbon Sapele from Formwood. Also about 240ft flat sawn sapele. the grain in the picture doesn't resemble either i got. But I'm old and tired right now:yes:

The finish looks to be clear...


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

rivc1982 said:


> I've taken on the task of redoing the face frames and doors of the kitchen cabinets and I am now truly understanding the complexity of the job .
> 
> Anybody have any recommendations on how to acheive the finish in this kitchen?


Curious about the faceframes.... You only want to match the finish or the cabinet style and the finish?


----------



## rivc1982 (Jan 12, 2014)

Rebelwork said:


> Curious about the faceframes.... You only want to match the finish or the cabinet style and the finish?


My goal is to reproduce what you see in the picture. Shaker style with sapele wood and obtain roughly the same caller (reddish brown). I am using sapele hardwood for the rails, stiles and face frame and sapele veneer plywood for the panels.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Sapele is going to be lighter than that so you will need a light stain. I would recommend a dye stain rather than an oil stain. Still you will have a minor blotching problem because the wood is very soft. To compensate for the wood being very soft the outcome would be better if the wood was sanded to 320 grit paper before you stain it.


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> Sapele is going to be lighter than that so you will need a light stain. I would recommend a dye stain rather than an oil stain. Still you will have a minor blotching problem because the wood is very soft. To compensate for the wood being very soft the outcome would be better if the wood was sanded to 320 grit paper before you stain it.


Sapele soft? 1,410 in the jenka. White oak is 1,350. I


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Sapele will become darker overtime, You should need nothing additional for Sapele unless you are going for a different look. The picture is probably with full light and trying to "grab" the grain structure in the photo.

I've stained Sapele to match walnut for color but still provided Sapele effect. Sand 150-180. Finishing may provide tint or not. Let your finish distributor try samples.

These are sanded with 180 and wet with just water.....First is Sapele lumber the second is veneered mdf.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

This is a photo of somebody elses Sapele tv stand. I'm remaking this with either the sapele or walnut center and glass. You can see a major difference in the Sapele tv stand and 2nd photo of Sapele I took.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeah, Sapale is a hardwood. 

It is a dark red-brown color with an orange tint look to it when a clear coat is applied. Thats why I would simply clear coat the Sapale first and see what you get. It should be pretty close to the kitchen you posted without any color applied. The sheen should be around 20.


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

rivc1982 said:


> Sorry for the late reply. I've been traveling. It is definitely sapele. quarter sawn ribbon stripe. The picture just doesn't do it justice (cheapy phone cam). I've noticed that when I reduced the dye stain considerably the "blotching" or pooling of the dye is much easier to manage. So I think Randy is on to something. I will probably give it a shot when I get back home. Although I would like to duplicate the color finish in the video I may need to simplify the finish so I can duplicate it on all pieces with less room for error. I've taken on the task of redoing the face frames and doors of the kitchen cabinets and I am now truly understanding the complexity of the job . Anybody have any recommendations on how to acheive the finish in this kitchen?


My guess is just a clear solvent precat lacquer. But a WB would yield similar results. 

I think your sample board either isn't sapele or is off in color. I use quite a bit of it and every now and then I do get a few that are lighter in color( yours is extreme).


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

Most of the Sapale Ive seen looks like the 2nd picture in post #13 by Rebelwork.....striped and flips like crazy.

When its all said and done, and being its for a kitchen, I suggest topcoating it with a conversion varnish.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

CNYWOODS said:


> My guess is just a clear solvent precat lacquer. But a WB would yield similar results.
> 
> I think your sample board either isn't sapele or is off in color. I use quite a bit of it and every now and then I do get a few that are lighter in color( yours is extreme).


This Sapele is 2-3 yrs old. Have about 250ft. Looked at some just today at Metro Hardwoods to see what they had in stock. Believe me its Sapele. I think age has darkened it a bit...


----------



## CNYWOODS (Apr 22, 2012)

Rebelwork said:


> This Sapele is 2-3 yrs old. Have about 250ft. Looked at some just today at Metro Hardwoods to see what they had in stock. Believe me its Sapele. I think age has darkened it a bit...


I was talking to OP. Yes the pictures you put up are sapele.


----------



## rivc1982 (Jan 12, 2014)

RandyReed said:


> Yeah, Sapale is a hardwood.
> 
> It is a dark red-brown color with an orange tint look to it when a clear coat is applied. Thats why I would simply clear coat the Sapale first and see what you get. It should be pretty close to the kitchen you posted without any color applied. The sheen should be around 20.


True. I actually decided on sanding the hardwood 150,180,220 and the ply veneer with just 220 since it is pretty smooth already. Then 2 coats of clear shellac and 3 coats of poly on both sanding between coats with 220. Will try other finish coats (lacquer and varnish) and grain filler to see if I can get a higher shine.

I'll post pics later of what it looks like so far with the poly.



CNYWOODS said:


> My guess is just a clear solvent precat lacquer. But a WB would yield similar results.
> 
> I think your sample board either isn't sapele or is off in color. I use quite a bit of it and every now and then I do get a few that are lighter in color( yours is extreme).


I'll post up a finished pic of one with just shellac and poly and the other with shellac washcoat and stain with poly.



RandyReed said:


> Most of the Sapale Ive seen looks like the 2nd picture in post #13 by Rebelwork.....striped and flips like crazy.
> 
> When its all said and done, and being its for a kitchen, I suggest topcoating it with a conversion varnish.


I tried general finishes high performance gloss poly and am somewhat satisfied. I am trying to get a really nice glossy finish so I am going to try and experiment with some clear grain filler if I can find some local. Went to home depot and all they had was wood filler which I presume is not the same thing. I'll try the conversion varnish and some lacquer to see which looks best.

Thanks for all the help. This latest hump in the project is becoming less daunting.


----------



## RandyReed (Jul 30, 2014)

If it was my project, instead of wood filler, I would apply 3 coats of a high build sealer and then 2 coats of conversion varnish. I would block sand the first coat with 320 grit and the next coats with 240 grit.

If you choose to use Sherwin Williams products, I can give you the numbers of the materials to use. Remember that if you use a conversion varnish as a topcoat, you must also catalyze any/all sealer coats that you use under the CV. If you dont, it will crack later on.


----------

