# Dovetail Guide? Worth it?



## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

I've been working on my hand cut dovetails. I might get 30 min a day every other day to devote to my woodworking. The more I do it I get better until I've hit this plateau. My dovetails are hit and miss. Some are perfectly flush, nice and tight, I would write home about these. Others still miss by a margin I find unacceptable. When I watch St. Roy, Schwarz, or Sellers I see perfection. I'm not seeing that I'll ever get to that point with only devoting my amount of time. (The amount of time wont change in the next couple of years.)

So now I've found these jigs from Veritas and this Brit David Barron. The videos look great. Looks foolproof. My chisel work is spot on. I can mark out and pare down to a gnats ass. I'm just hit and miss with my saw technique. 

Anyone have any experience with these guides? They look great in principal. Also, instead of a dozuki could I use a regular back saw. I currently use a gent but I'm looking for a regular one. Do you think the back would interfere with the cutting depth to make it impractical?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I don't like a Japanese pull saw for dovetails, but I don't see why a gent's saw would not work just fine. The key is practice. I've done hundreds of dovetail joints and never worry about them being flush, actually, I purposely build them unflush, then plane the proud ends. I also leave a fair amount of wood to allow fitting with a chisel. Like you, I find accurate control of a chisel easier than fine control of a saw.

I didn't answer your original question, but I have no experience with a dovetail jig.


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## GISer3546 (Jan 30, 2013)

I was in the exact same situation with my hand cut dovetails. I considered those same guides but eventually decided against them, since it would all but antiquate my nice veritas dovetail saw. I ended up making something similar to the commercial guides out of red oak. I put a little paste wax on the ends to help with friction and I have a small spring clamp i use to hold it to the work piece. Dont have any pictures at the moment but can post them shortly. Using my homemade guides I've been able to get pretty consistent good quality dovetails. The only difference between mine and the commercial ones is the lack of a magnet, but that doesnt seem to cause any issues. I use it to start with to get a groove then remove it and continue the cut.


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## GISer3546 (Jan 30, 2013)

this is quick and messy pic but its pretty much what I have.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

I've been using painter's tape to serve as a guide in cutting dovetails. I remove the tape from the waste, and saw just proud of the edge of the tape. Then use my paring chisel to clean things up.


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## Derek Cohen (Aug 14, 2007)

eschatz said:


> I've been working on my hand cut dovetails. I might get 30 min a day every other day to devote to my woodworking. The more I do it I get better until I've hit this plateau. My dovetails are hit and miss. Some are perfectly flush, nice and tight, I would write home about these. Others still miss by a margin I find unacceptable. When I watch St. Roy, Schwarz, or Sellers I see perfection. I'm not seeing that I'll ever get to that point with only devoting my amount of time. (The amount of time wont change in the next couple of years.)
> 
> So now I've found these jigs from Veritas and this Brit David Barron. The videos look great. Looks foolproof. My chisel work is spot on. I can mark out and pare down to a gnats ass. I'm just hit and miss with my saw technique.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with these guides? They look great in principal. Also, instead of a dozuki could I use a regular back saw. I currently use a gent but I'm looking for a regular one. Do you think the back would interfere with the cutting depth to make it impractical?


Just keep working on your sawing. A guide will not enable you to develop confidence, which is really the issue. As you relax when sawing, you relax your grip on the saw and let it do the work. That is the key element.

Always saw to a knifed line, never a pencil line. Saw against the line. Blue tape does help, especially to see fine lines on dark wood. I developed this technique a few years ago, and published the first article about it here ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfblindDovetailsinJarrah.html










Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm not a fan of the guides or the blue tape. With the amount of time but you have to devote to dovetailing you can learn to become very proficient at it in about a week or more. You want to have a system that you use for cutting dovetails. I always cut to the line I never pair to the line. For me a big change was to go to a Moxon vise. The material was at a height that I found easier to have good results. I would encourage you to spend 2,3, or 4 hours just cutting to a line.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Keith Mathewson said:


> I'm not a fan of the guides or the blue tape. With the amount of time but you have to devote to dovetailing you can learn to become very proficient at it in about a week or more. You want to have a system that you use for cutting dovetails. I always cut to the line I never pair to the line. For me a big change was to go to a Moxon vise. The material was at a height that I found easier to have good results. I would encourage you to spend 2,3, or 4 hours just cutting to a line.


I agree that the blue tape is a time killer; however, before I used it, I was always cutting the wrong side of the line. I pare to the line, because I love using my 100 year old Buck Brothers Paring Chisel.


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 23, 2010)

Everyone has a system that they like, if the tape works for you by gosh that's the one you should use. I've cut lots and lots of dovetails and use the same system every time, but it is a system. I do it exactly the same way every time. It becomes something like riding a bike you don't think about it after a while. With the system I use, you cu, t chop out the waste, apply glue and put the box together- it is never dry fit or paired.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Keith Mathewson said:


> Everyone has a system that they like, if the tape works for you by gosh that's the one you should use. I've cut lots and lots of dovetails and use the same system every time, but it is a system. I do it exactly the same way every time. It becomes something like riding a bike you don't think about it after a while. With the system I use, you cu, t chop out the waste, apply glue and put the box together- it is never dry fit or paired.


Your have a better system than mine, I am forced to pare and dry fit. No amount of experience has allowed me that kind of accuracy. 

My next project is an Arts and Crafts Armoire with about a dozen drawers. You've given me something to aspire to. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 23, 2010)

I first learned to cut dovetails with a japanese saw and it was just as you described. Even after cutting many, many dovetails the process wasn't much better. Two things changed which made the process much better and each, for me, was equally important. First was to get a moxon vise and the second was to take a class from Rob Cosman. 

While I don't quite use his technique any more the change to a western saw and tails first approach greatly improved things. One of the biggest things for accuracy is foot placement and material height. I try to make my arm act as a piston and position the material based on my body height. I also make a conscious effort to hold the saw as if I was holding a wounded bird, just enough to hold it but not enough to squeeze it.

I number all ends of the boards the same way every time and cut in the same sequence every time. I use a knife line across the endgrain because it is easier to see. The cutting is hard to describe but easy to demonstrate.


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for the help guys. I've been using a pencil, I'll switch to my knife. I had previously been sawing just shy of the line. I guess hugging it or trying to. Last week I switched to sawing down the line. I usually can eliminate the line now. I have only been cutting straight lines for the last week and have gotten better at that. I need to try my hand at another set of dovetails and see if I have progress. 

I'm thinking I wont get the guide. It seemed like cheating a little bit to me. (Not that it would matter to me very much personally) However, I think I'm pretty close to a good product if I can just get my technique refined to the next level.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Turn your saw over with a light overhead, then look at the tips of the teeth, very closely. If you see any reflection of light off the teeth, the teeth are dull. You won't be able to cut precisely with a dull saw. I've never seen a sharp Gents saw at the stores. The teeth are always dull and need sharpening right out of the package.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Hammer1 said:


> Turn your saw over with a light overhead, then look at the tips of the teeth, very closely. If you see any reflection of light off the teeth, the teeth are dull. You won't be able to cut precisely with a dull saw. I've never seen a sharp Gents saw at the stores. The teeth are always dull and need sharpening right out of the package.


Isn't that normally the case with new tools. The first thing I do before I use a new tool is sharpen it.


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## Hammer1 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wrangler said:


> Isn't that normally the case with new tools. The first thing I do before I use a new tool is sharpen it.


Sharpening fine toothed handsaws isn't in everyone's wheelhouse. Japanese saws come very sharp and so do some of the higher end Western saws. A dull Gent's saw can be frustrating when trying to cut precise dovetails, it just won't make a fine, controlled cut.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

For me, the skill of tool sharpening is as important as learning to use those tools. I can't imagine sending out tools for sharpening, even if I could find someone capable of sharpening them by hand. Even those high end saws will need resharpening. And Japanese saws are throwaway.


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## eschatz (Feb 12, 2014)

For sharpening my DT saw I should run a bastard parallel down the teeth once or twice to level them. Then use my XXslim with two strokes per gullet perpendicular to the blade. Keeping the back of the file 90 deg (approx) from the blade (rip). Then it should be good to go. Right?


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

eschatz said:


> For sharpening my DT saw I should run a bastard parallel down the teeth once or twice to level them. Then use my XXslim with two strokes per gullet perpendicular to the blade. Keeping the back of the file 90 deg (approx) from the blade (rip). Then it should be good to go. Right?


Sounds right to me.


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## Wrangler02 (Apr 15, 2011)

Wrangler said:


> Sounds right to me.


That said, I sharpen all of my saws as rip saws. I have found that a rip saw crosscuts the dry hardwoods that I work very nicely. I then grab the saw that I want to use based on the thickness of stock. Even my miter saw is a rip saw!


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