# kick back fingers



## gpeck (Nov 24, 2010)

I am relatively new with a table saw. My saw has a splitter a guard and anti kick back fingers. I notice a lot of the professionals do not use the fingers. They use the splitter with a blade guard only. Is that safe? Does the splitter by itself eliminate kick back?
Thanks


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

The splitter eliminates _some_ kickbacks. Keep the antikickpack pawls on. They've saved me a few times from taking a board to the stomach.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*kickback fingers*

By the time the fingers come into play, a kickback is already in progress.

The splitter is designed to do 2 things, the first is to prevent the work from moving away from the fence at the rear of the blade... it can't because the splitter plate is in the way. The second thing it does is prevent the blade from closing up on the rear of the blade...pinching it and propelling it up and over back at you. It can't pinch the blade signifcantly because it's just a hair thinner than the kerf. 
With a proper splitter, kickback is minimized. At least in my experience, I've not had one using it and several without using one. 
Thicker workpieces can have internal stresses and close OR open after the kerf is made. Thin work pieces can lift up because of the blade rotation and they have little weight of their own to keep them in place on the table. This may cause a kickback.

When making a "test" cut you may want to just see how the kerf aligns with your measured mark and or rip a test piece. You CANNOT back the work out with the fingers engaged. I don't need them or use them. :thumbdown:

Safety is also in the operators mind set as well as in the safety equipment in use. Some things are included in the equipment because the liability engineers and lawyers want to cover their collective ass..ets.

Another issue is with narrow rips between the blade and fence. The fingers end up straddling the piece or getting hung up in between and your push stick won't work with them in the way.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't use them, just the riving knife on my saw.


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

There are reasons for them and not just because of lawyers. There are plenty of people who use the same lawyer theory about blade guards. Watch the DIY shows any of them, they have no splitter, riving knife or blade guards most of the time. Evidently they don't have the same lawyers because they are always showing unsafe practices with a table saw.


Now as I said they are there for a reason, so are the blade guards but both get in the way at certain times. Although they get in the way sometimes it is usually just an inconvenience type thing. It les happen rarely that the guard needs to be removed for certain cuts, same is true on the splitter with kick back prawls. Older saws were difficult to change out so people left these safety devices off, however newer saws have gotten much easier to change out these things. 

Power tools are dangerous even with the safety equipment but they get exponentially more dangerous with each safety device not used. Using experience as a reason to remove a safety devices does not eliminate the risk. Even though experience does give you better odds then little to no experience it still increases.the odds of an accident compared to using the safety devices.

Leave them on unless physically impossible and even then remove or disable them for that process then activate them again, especially since your new to this. Even with years of experience things can and will still happen if your not using the safety devices so why increase the odds of it happening.


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## gpeck (Nov 24, 2010)

I like them. They make me feel safer. I am going to buy the BORK splitter with the dust collector guard. It does not come with kick back fingers. I am a machinist by trade and I think I can figure out a way to attach them to my saw.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

Let me put it this way.

When I bought my UniSaw, I paid an extra $140 for the riving knife (a.k.a. Splitter) with the pawls. I don't cut without it except for non through cuts.


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## Chataigner (May 30, 2013)

European saws dont have them, the splitter/riving knife is all you need in my opinion.


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## fire65 (Apr 27, 2013)

The problem with my new saw was once I added a zero clearance plate (factory plate) nothing will fit back on the saw. There is no way to use the riving knife of guard.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

fire65 said:


> The problem with my new saw was once I added a zero clearance plate (factory plate) nothing will fit back on the saw. There is no way to use the riving knife of guard.


I would not like to use a table saw without a splitter or riving knife.

Have you looked at the BORK? It fits many saws.

http://theborkstore.com/

Or the Micro Jig splitter?

http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=micro jig mj splitter


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this is how kickback occurs*

It's difficult to argue with these examples shown in real time, not just unexplained "reasons" This is the How and the Why of kickback ....

If you push a board without using a splitter .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z-gMTKIfCnQ#t=96s













Blade height and kickback:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Nothing prevents a kickback. You can still have a kickback with a riving knife or a splitter. Using whatever safety devices that can fit your saw only minimizes the possibility of kickback.



















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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

fire65 said:


> The problem with my new saw was once I added a zero clearance plate (factory plate) nothing will fit back on the saw. There is no way to use the riving knife of guard.


If your using a factory zero clearance plate and the riving knife, guard or splitter wont't fit. Stop and call them maybe even write a letter. If you cut your hand off they and everyone else will try and say its your fault for not using the guard, riving knife etc.. Either your missing something, have the wrong plate or the design is flawed, so solve that problem now before something happens.


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## skyking (Mar 24, 2013)

I have an older saw with only the factory guard and no splitter. 
Between these two choices, which is best?
1) Micro jig splitter on a zero clearance plate. 
2) bork ripping knife.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

fire65 said:


> The problem with my new saw was once I added a zero clearance plate (factory plate) nothing will fit back on the saw. There is no way to use the riving knife of guard.


You need to run a kerf into the back of the zero clearance insert to accept the splitter, it doesn't need to be a zero clearance. I make mine a quarter of an inch wide on the router table.


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## gpeck (Nov 24, 2010)

I ended up ordering the Bork splitter with the dust collector blade guard. Bob the owner of the system was a big help. I think it will work great for me. I may try to mount the anti kick back fingers I currently use to the system. Thanks for all the good advice you guys have given me.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Is kickback preventable ?*

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...ting+kickback+on+table+saw&rs=1&fr2=rs-bottom

There may be times where the use of a splitter/riving knife, push block, a properly set up saw and fence doesn't prevent it, but not in my experience when cutting panels or sheet goods. Mine have all occurred because of a lack of a splitter/riving knife on my saw or operator error on my part. However, they may also occur when ripping lumber, since it can move or curve into the fence after being cut.

There are certain circumstance where a kickback can be expected:

1. Occasionally very thin rips may sit there along the fence and a rotating blade for a while and creep back slowly. A properly set up fence will not cause them to project rearward. 
2. Sometimes a piece may "move" as it's being ripped and curve away from the fence and be projected rearward. 
3. I've also had the loose piece from a 2 cut rabbet projected back at me ...no fault of the saw setup or operator (me) and I fully expected it :yes: and was prepared for it by standing far enough to the left of the blade. There is a "No Standing" area behind the saw where no one is allowed for this very reason. In a one man shop that's not as much of a concern as in a production shop or in a school setting where there are others present.

So, no not all kickbacks are preventable, but you will learn when to expect them and how to avoid them.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> There may be times where the use of a splitter/riving knife, push block, a properly set up saw and fence doesn't prevent it, but not in my experience when cutting panels or sheet goods. Mine have all occurred because of a lack of a splitter/riving knife on my saw or operator error on my part. However, they may also occur when ripping lumber, since it can move or curve into the fence after being cut.


Lumber can also curve away from the fence and bind on a riving knife or splitter.


















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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I covered that here*

see post 3


woodnthings said:


> Thicker workpieces can have internal stresses and close OR open after the kerf is made. .





cabinetman said:


> Lumber can also curve away from the fence and bind on a riving knife or splitter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it binds on the splitter, that's better than binding and closing on the blade which will cause a kickback. :yes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> see post 3


I did read post #3, and what you said wasn't very clear...at least to me...



woodnthings said:


> The splitter is designed to do 2 things, the first is to prevent the work from moving away from the fence at the rear of the blade... it can't because the splitter plate is in the way. *The second thing it does is prevent the blade from closing up on the rear of the blade...*


Sounds confusing.



woodnthings said:


> Thicker workpieces can have internal stresses and close OR open after the kerf is made.


Yes, the kerf can close or open. That doesn't explain what happens. The wooid itself can "walk" towards the fence, which can cause the bulk of it to be forced away from the fence. Or, the stock could just "walk" away from the fence towards the splitter/riving knife, at least this has been my experience. Which way it moves has little to do with the actual kerf size, but rather what the wood decides to do. 



woodnthings said:


> Thin work pieces can lift up because of the blade rotation and they have little weight of their own to keep them in place on the table. This may cause a kickback.


Workpieces should be held down to the table no matter what their weight.


















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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*if your wood "walks" more power to it*

My wood may open or close on the rear of the blade ....OR move towards or away from the fence at the rear of the blade.
Is that clear enough for you?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

*More About "Walking"*



woodnthings said:


> My wood may open or close on the rear of the blade ....OR move towards or away from the fence at the rear of the blade.
> Is that clear enough for you?


It's not just for me, but for any member that may benefit from simple accurate information. The term "Walking" is used in the trade by saw operators to describe what wood does when it gets cut. You may just not be familiar with it.


















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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*thanks for your explanation.....*

Now, when I can't find that piece of wood I just had in my hand a minute ago, I know what to do. I'll just take a walk and see if I run into it "waking" about the shop. How far can a piece of Red Oak walk, and are some specie more prone to walking or can some crawl or even run... jogging wood anyone?
I must travel in very small circles because I've never heard the term applied to wood. I've heard of "wood movement" and one must be careful not to use the word bowel when turning a bowl, lest we have a bowel movement situation and have to call 911. I learn something here just about everytime I log in. This place is a wealth of information and esoteria. Just for good measure, I'm locking all my "walking sticks" in the front hall closet.... just sayin' :blink:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> I must travel in very small circles because I've never heard the term applied to wood.


That's what we do here, is share information. Glad to be of help. Just sayin'.:blink:



















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## captainawesome (Jun 21, 2012)

Woodnthings and cabinetman. I've seen a couple conversatons like this between the two of you lately and it is a little unsettling. I hope y'all can make amends and find some common ground on a subject. I greatly respesct both of y'all's opinions and the two of you help so many other people on this site that I'd hate to see this thing go any further downhill.

Y'all have loads of wisdom and sound advice for people like me. It just seems a little counter productive to be arguing with each other instead of helping/learning from others which is why we are all here. I don't mean to insert myself in what is going on (mainly because I probably don't know everything) I just couldn't stand by and watch two incredibly influential men argue like this.

Now, if there is some way to shake hands via a chat thread, would y'all be willing to do so and keep things on a positive note? 

Sean


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

captainawesome said:


> Woodnthings and cabinetman. I've seen a couple conversatons like this between the two of you lately and it is a little unsettling. I hope y'all can make amends and find some common ground on a subject. I greatly respesct both of y'all's opinions and the two of you help so many other people on this site that I'd hate to see this thing go any further downhill.
> 
> Y'all have loads of wisdom and sound advice for people like me. It just seems a little counter productive to be arguing with each other instead of helping/learning from others which is why we are all here. I don't mean to insert myself in what is going on (mainly because I probably don't know everything) I just couldn't stand by and watch two incredibly influential men argue like this.
> 
> ...


We're just havin' fun. If we weren't, I'd ask him to meet me outside in the parking lot in 10 minutes.:laughing::laughing:



















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