# Can I make these cabinets darker?



## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

*My wife wants to redo our bathroom, the problem is she's picked all dark things and doesnt match the color of our cabinets.*

*Is it possible to make these darker by applying a stain or something?*


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

If you mix a dye in with a finish and spray it on it should work. You need to know what the finish on the cabinets is before you put something else on it.


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## jaros bros. (Feb 18, 2009)

You could try a glaze but Leo is right, you need to use something that is compatible with the old finish. I would try a wipe on polyurethane stain. Shouldn't be any trouble darkening those up.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

OK, thanks for the info. So......how do I find out what kind of finish is on them now?


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## Tony B (Jul 30, 2008)

Do you have the capability of spraying?


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

No, I dont know anything about spraying. If I went that route I'd have to hire someone (which I not against if I cant find an easy solution).:blink:


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Have someone else do it that knows what they are doing is probably the best solution. Certainly not going to be the cheapest on though.:no:


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

Again, thanks guys for your time and info. I did find a sticker inside the cabinet. They were made by Merillat (Merillat.com). The sticker says 'ansi/kcma a161.1-200'. I went to their website trying to find out the finish with no luck. I did send them an email. Hopefully, they'll be able to provide a finish type and way to make them darker.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Almost guaranteed to be a post cat conversion varnish.

You are going to have to scuff it with a maroon scotchbrite and apply either a dewaxed shellac or vinyl sealer before you put something else on it.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

I called Merillat and they told me the finish is a heat catalized topcoat. Does this make sense to you guys?

Having said that, what steps can I take to darken these?


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## tylerbjh (Jan 30, 2010)

I personally haven't used heat catalyzed topcoats, but I'm assuming shellac should adhere to it. What I would do is scuff sand it apply the shellac and have a tinted polyurethane made up by your paint store. Maybe take them off and lay them flat as it will be easier to avoid dripping and brush marks.

Don't over brush it or it will defiantly leave brush marks. Tinted poly is a little more tricky then regular poly to apply IMO.. not impossible just more challenging.

Whatever you do don't take my advice until someone else confirms that this should work, and always do a test in an inconspicuous spot.


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## cusingeorge (Nov 17, 2007)

"heated catalyzed topcoat" is conversion varnish that has been through an oven to make it dry faster, it neither helps nor hinders the finished panel.

You need to hire this done if you want it to come out right. Tinted topcoats are not for beginners. I'm going to guess you are in Cincinnati, OH? There are plenty of good finishers in that area (the Amish and others) that can tackle your job.

It will not be cheap to tone your cabinets, but having it professionally done to me makes the most sense for you.


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## shopsmithtom (Nov 3, 2009)

Can you stand any more advise? If there's a spot that's not visible, you should test there first. I agree that the maroon scotchbrite is the best to scuff with, but before you scuff it, you need to wipe it down with mineral spirits to to remove any kitchen grease or smoke residue. If you don't do this first, you will scuff some of that into your finish with the scotchbrite pad. I don't think you need the shellac as the wood is already sealed & scuffing shouldn't be enough to cut through that sealed finish. All you need to do in the scuffing process is to get a uniform dull look to provide for a physical bonding surface for the next step, then wipe it down with mineral spirits again to remove the dust. I'd try a gel stain wiped on and after dry, a coat or 2 of polyurethane.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

I will take all the advice i can get.

I went to a local cabinet refinisher this week and I was told to clean with Murphy's Oil soap, sand with steel wool and try a stain.

The guy I spoke with was great, in fact he gave me a cabinet door exactly like mine to test on.

I was planning on doing a test today.


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

cincycuse said:


> I will take all the advice i can get.
> 
> I went to a local cabinet refinisher this week and I was told to clean with Murphy's Oil soap, sand with steel wool and try a stain.
> 
> ...


If you are going to try a stain, do not use an oil or water based penetrating stain. A penetrating stain is one that is designed to (obviously) penetrate the wood. Without entirely removing the previous finish (which you won't be doing with a simple scuf with steel wool), a penetrating stain won't work.

As mentioned earler.... the best would be a professionally sprayed dye stain. A dye stain lays more on the surface (much like paint) where the medium flashes off (evaporates and dries) leaving the dye behind on the surface. A dye stain will cover up some of the detail of the grain, but would be a perfect solution for your situation. But, like it's been said, spraying a dye stain, appropriate sealer and rebuilding a finish that is going to last for the life of the cabinet and stand up to the humidity of a bathroom.... isn't normally something for a DIY'er. 

So, barring having them professionally done, I would clean them thoroughly with mineral spirits which will leave them squeaky clean (I just don't know what's in a commercial cleaner that might be left behind which might interfere with the new finish). I'd then wipe them down with a damp cloth. Sand with some #120 then #150 sand paper wiping off the sanding dust each time with a mineral spirits soaked rag. You really need some scratches in the surface of the wood to grab and hold any new stain and finish. I don't like using steel wool because of how badly it sheds and leaves teeny-tiny bits and pieces all over the place which are difficult to remove. 

Next I would use a high quality gel stain. A gel stain will act like a dye stain in that it does not penetrate the wood. It lays on the surface and the medium (gel) will flash off and evaporate (dry) leaving the dye and pigment behind. You need to work very carefully with gel stains over previously stained (and finished) surfaces. They will totally cover up any existing grain if you aren't careful. The higher quality your gel stain.... the better. I've tried several of the big box store brands and don't care for them at all. The last time I tried Minwax for example, it was gritty and runny. The one I really like is from General Finishes http://www.generalfinishes.com/gel.pdf which you can find at a professional woodworking store like Rockler or Woodcraft. It has the consistancy of a thick yougart and nary a bit of grit in it at all.

Since he gave you a door to practice on.... try the oil soap and steel wool on one half, then try the two sanding steps and mineral spirits on the other half and see which yields you the best results. Do both tests on the same side of the door though because the back for example may not have received the same initial treatment as the front. So you wouldn't necessarily get the same results. In either case if you do nothing else.... use the GF gel stain and you will get the best possible result short of a professionally sprayed dye.

You can then finish over the top with the General Finishes gel top coat http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11243 which is designed to go with their gel stains and have a final finish you can trust. Good luck and shoot some pics and show us the results! :thumbsup:


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## shopsmithtom (Nov 3, 2009)

If you're going to use the Murphy's oil soap, make sure you get all the residue off. It's water soluble, so several runs over it with a damp cloth. Personally, I wouldn't use it in the finishing process.


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## RUSSR (Jan 6, 2010)

You have a lacquer finish and a veneer side so I'm real interested in how this works out for you. Please post pic's when finished.


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## Sherry_74 (Feb 4, 2010)

I have kitchen cabinets that are very similar to your bathroom cabinets.

I tried using General Finishes gel stain to make them darker and it was difficult to achieve any kind of uniform color.

I cleaned the cabinets with TSP substitute and carefully “scuffed” the surface with 180 grit. I followed that with a deglosser.

My plan was to wipe on the stain and then wipe off about 10 minutes. I was going to use multiple coats until I got to the color I wanted. That just didn’t work, it darkened the grain somewhat but most of the stain just wiped completely off and it didn’t get any darker after the first coat.

I was told the trick is to wipe off just a little of the stain and that proved very difficult. The main problem was the recessed panel in the center of the door. Wiping with the grain just pushed the stain into the seam between the panel and the frame.

On slab or raised panel doors, this method would work much better because it would be possible make long strokes with a rag along the entire length of the door. Even then getting a uniform color is only possible if the stain is applied in a thick coat almost like paint and the end result looks more like paint than stain.

I’ll post pictures if everyone promises not to laugh. And if anyone has a suggestion, I’d appreciate it because I have made a complete mess of my kitchen cabinets.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

I can't make that promise...post them anyway. :shifty:


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Yeah.... that's the problem with trying to stain over previously finished wood Sherry. It's quite difficult to get anything to stick. Like many have mentioned, probably the best way is to have them sprayed professionally with a dye stain. A dye stain being more like an opaque paint staying on the surface with more finish applied after the dye stain. If it's all kept in the same family (like lacquer for example) it should end up just like a multiple coat process and be just as durable as the original.

If the GF gel stain didn't work, then any of the other gel stains that I've personally tried wouldn't have worked either. That doesn't mean there isn't another one though of course. It's just the GF is the best that I've tried.


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## RUSSR (Jan 6, 2010)

JW 
what is the price different between the dye stain and just painting? The veneer side is my concern with the dye stain. I would rather sell a new vanity , but I get this request and head to my buddy at Sherwin Williams that sells me a adhesive primer with some paint. No clear coat needed. Total cost for the two is around $60.00


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Don't really know since a pro will likely already have his dyes. It wouldn't take but a few drops mixed with some lacquer or DNA. Of course, he'll still charge for his materials and time for sure. But, to me.... it would be worth it. As for the difference between the veneer or face side or doors being different, there won't be a lick of difference sprayed with a dye stain I wouldn't think. Think of an opaque stain you might use on a cedar deck or siding. It covers the grain up some, but you can still "see" the grain through the stain. Not as clearly as a penetrating stain, but.... it colors the entire board very evenly. So whether you're spraying plywood, veneer or face wood, with a dye stain, everyting comes out very even and clean looking. That is, if you're a pro that has the right tools, knows how to use them and of course, the experience. One of the problems with spraying dyes as stains or even very light shades as toners over stains, is you can end up with stripes. That's where knowing what you are doing with the proper equipment will separate a cabinet pro from a DIY'er like me. 

I thought the gel stain approach might work, but for Sherry, obviously it didn't. Maybe she got everything too smooth going to #180 (I would have stopped at #120 or #150 for certain so that I could get something a little rougher for the stain to grab). But, either way.... the gel stain approach was at least worth a try IMHO. You can buy that stuff in half pint cans so I figured it was worth it to see. I would have tested a bunch to be certain before I ruined my entire kitchen though. But, hind sight is usually better no?


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## Sherry_74 (Feb 4, 2010)

My daughter has my camera. As soon as I can get it back, I'll post some pictures. I told my husband I was only "experimenting" on the back of a few doors but then I went ahead did some door fronts which I regret because they are way too dark. Almost like black paint. I used the java gel stain.

I've been hiding the doors in the basement hoping I could clean them off with mineral spirits but I let the stain dry completely. So I'm sort of stuck at this point. I'm not sure what to do.


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

Sherry_74 said:


> My daughter has my camera. As soon as I can get it back, I'll post some pictures. I told my husband I was only "experimenting" on the back of a few doors but then I went ahead did some door fronts which I regret because they are way too dark. Almost like black paint. I used the java gel stain.
> 
> I've been hiding the doors in the basement hoping I could clean them off with mineral spirits but I let the stain dry completely. So I'm sort of stuck at this point. I'm not sure what to do.


Sherry, you may be ok if you didn't sand completely through your previous finish. I would try some Goof-Off and see if that works. It may not get all of the dark Java out of the deep pores of the open grain on Oak, but should get off enough to let you try another route. That is, as long as a fair amount of the previous finish was still there.

Sorry you're having trouble.


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## steveatkins (Feb 11, 2010)

the best idea would be to get someone who knows what they're doing.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

OK, so I went to Woodcraft today and got some Brown Mahogany General Finishes Gel Stain. I've talked to a handful of people and no one really knew where to stear me. I got so many different opinions I didnt know which direction to go. So.....I took different things from different people.

I'll create seperate steps for each step I took along with a photo.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

Here is my test piece. It is slightly thicker than my doors. It seems stronger, mine feel 'cheaper'. Hopefully, that doesnt matter much.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

This is after it was prepped. #1 had nothing done other than cleaned with mineral spirits. #2 had a stain stripper applied and scraped. #3 had steel wool used on it. #4 was sanded with 120 and 150 grit sand paper.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

Finished results. I didn't give much attention to getting it in the sides. I was more concerned with the overall look, ie, would I lose the grain, is it too dark, smears, etc. My wife thinks part #1 looks the best, which is gel stain straight on. I like #4, I like the darkness and the defined look of the grain.

The line between parts #3 and #4 is the original as there was tape there.


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## Leo G (Oct 16, 2006)

Are you wiping the stain off or leaving it on?


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

Here is the finished piece again, just closer. I'm pretty happy with the results. I didnt have much confidence after hearing from so many people who thought my results wouldn't be very good.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

So, now for my questions.

Obviously, I can lay the doors flat when finishing. I cant do that for the rest of the cabinet, so does that present any problems? I also have a veneer piece on the very bottom as well as a large veneer piece on the far left end.

Also, what is the best way to get the edges where the grooves are? 

Anyone have any suggestions, tips or comments?


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## JW_in_Indy (Mar 20, 2009)

cincycuse said:


> Finished results. I didn't give much attention to getting it in the sides. I was more concerned with the overall look, ie, would I lose the grain, is it too dark, smears, etc. My wife thinks part #1 looks the best, which is gel stain straight on. I like #4, I like the darkness and the defined look of the grain.
> 
> The line between parts #3 and #4 is the original as there was tape there.


 
Good job and nice use of your test piece. I agree with you that #4 looks best. But then again, I don't have to live with your wife, :no:

I wouldn't worry about the veneered section on the end or sanding with the boxes up rather than flat. You should be able to get them sanded quite well and you don't have worries about the gel stain running anywhere. Just be careful that you don't sand through the veneer. It's easy to do if you don't pay attention.


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## cincycuse (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks JW. I really appreciate you taking the time to guide me in the right direction. 

#4, by the way, was done as you said on page one of this thread.:thumbsup:

Thanks again.

When I get the 'real' project completed in the coming days, I'll be sure to post.


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