# Table Saw Opinions and Options



## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

I bought a Delta hybrid saw in 2007 and upgraded the fence to the Incra system with 52 in rails and a shared router table. Yes, I spent some money and time on this setup. Now, the saw is way out of alignment. Blade is out .040 front to back, and won't come back in, even after 3 Delta tech visits and new front & rear trunion changes....and enlarging rear trunion mounting holes. I cannot explain it b/c with the motor off, the blade can be aligned perfectly...put the motor back on...no way!

Anyhow, Delta has tentatively agreed to refund the money I originally spent on the saw. So, I'm considering what my next options are. I have a smaller basement shop where mobile tools tend to allow more flexibility. If I have to do it over again, I will definitely keep the router unit separate for convenience, and use rails on the TS - I never try to cut full sheets due to the awkardness. 

I'm looking for some suggestions and feedback. Budget is a fairly low priority. In the long haul, I feel quality and performance far outweigh initial investment. I'm trying to focus on 110v options for now. I could run 220v, but I'd rather not mess with it. Currently, my options include:
1. Another hybrid TS and reuse the Incra Fence I have. Those hybrids that are high on the list are: Grizzly, Jet, and Craftsman....all have positives and negatives. Fence is not important, but alignment and quality are for sure. 
2. A good contractor saw (like the Bosch) and build a solid rolling base that will also reuse the Incra Fence, and incorporate dust collection.
3. The Festool System - but can it truly replace a solid TS?
4. The Saw Stop TS w/ enclosed base- which uses 110v. 5. Or, forget a TS all together, and just resort to either a circ saw and guide and/or my 14" BS....but I'm not sure how others have done this. My TS has always been goto for accuracy. The Incra fence would probably go up on CL for a great deal to someone....GRRR...
6. Open to other suggestions....I'm sure someone will say to man up and put in the 220v circuit. But will it be that big of a step change in quality? I'm a little leary of buying a used anything from CL...don't want to inherit someone else's abused tools.

Lastly, I have to just say that I am very type A when it comes to my tools. 90 degrees is 90 degrees in my world.....not 89.5. I like solid joinery and precision required to make it that way. I am a hobby woodworker and I take my sweet time building things. That said, when I complete a project, its not done until I am satisfied with it 100%. I'm a simple guy. I drive a piece of crap truck every day, and live in a simple house....like quality beer and good tools.

Thanks in advance for your insight. Much appreciated.


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## thehunter (Oct 27, 2010)

i would a get another hybrid saw


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm sort of amazed that the Delta saw can't be aligned. In reading your post, you say that you can align the saw perfectly and then power up the saw and the saw has jumped out of alignment. 

If that is the case, I would almost bet that you need new washers on the bolts holding the trunnion to the table top. (Use garage door washers as they are hardened and shouldn't deform when torqued down.)

You seem to want a cabinet style saw but you don't have 230 volts available. Your best option might just be to install a 230 volt outlet for a true cabinet saw. It's not really a big deal to do according to code. The biggest issue is to find a full width breaker slot in your breaker panel. 

I'm not a fan of Festool. I've seen the saw demonstrated. IMHO the Festool saw is a job site saw that has very good dust collection. I don't think that I would want to attempt to build furniture using the Festool saw. As I said IMHO.

I have the previous to the current model UniSaw. No problems and I'm delighted with the saw. Previously I used a Jet contractor saw. Again no problems. The one thing that I can say about these two saws is that dust collection on the contractor model saw is really lacking. The difference between cabinet and contractor models is astounding!

When selecting a true (230 volt) cabinet saw, I think that it is difficult to throw rocks at any of them.

Just another thought... Can you use the refund from Delta to get a killer deal on their new UniSaw? That seems to be one fine machine.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

jascotx said:


> I bought a Delta hybrid saw in 2007 and upgraded the fence to the Incra system with 52 in rails and a shared router table. Yes, I spent some money and time on this setup. Now, the saw is way out of alignment. Blade is out .040 front to back, and won't come back in, even after 3 Delta tech visits and new front & rear trunion changes....and enlarging rear trunion mounting holes. I cannot explain it b/c with the motor off, the blade can be aligned perfectly...put the motor back on...no way!



If 3 Delta techs did all that changing I doubt it's something as simple as washers. I would get the refund and find yourself a Unisaw deal. A 220V - 230V machine will have the power...3HP, if you're looking for a keeper. 












 









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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm also surprised that something can't be done to align the Delta, but being that it's now moot point, I do think you can do better structurally. 

For clarification, what you're calling a contractor saw is more commonly known as a portable jobsite saw...the term contractor saw is a bit of a misnomer in today's market, and typically pertains to the full size cast iron stationary saws with the belt drive induction motor hanging out the back. Given your wishes for super accuracy, I would rule out a portable jobsite saw...they're great for portability and can certainly do a good job, but they give up a lot to a heavy duty stationary saw in terms of mass, materials of construction, longevity, table surface area, and even have more vibration due to lack of weight and the direct drive motors. IMO it'd be a pretty big step backward for you. I would also rule out most traditional contractor saws with the outboard motor...the leverage from the motor can cause accuracy issues on the trunnions. Note that they are some new versions of contractor saws on the market that have moved the motor inside the enclosure (Ridgid R4512, Craftsman 21833, Porter Cable PCB270TS, Grizzly G0661)...those are hybrids by my defintion, but who am I to argue if the manufacturer wants to call it a contractor saw? :huh:

The design of an industrial cabinet saw is likely to give you the best shot at extreme accuracy...they're just a more substantial machine than any contractor saw or hybrid, are easier to align, and tend to hold alignment. They should also last several lifetimes with proper maintenance, and are a joy to use. Anything from a Grizzly G1023 for ~$1200 to a $3500 SawStop cabinet saw would do nicely, and of course you get the safety feature with a SawStop. There are a lot of good cabinet saws from Delta, General, Powermatic, Jet, and Shop Fox too. Take a look at what's under the hood of something like a Grizzly G1023RL:









If you really don't want to run 220v, you'll have to forego the prospect of an industrial cabinet saw unless you stumble into a good used Delta Unisaw with a 1hp to 2hp motor...they do exist. Otherwise you're back to a good hybrid like the General International 50-240GT, GI 50-220R, Grizzly G0715P, Grizzly G0661, Craftsman 22116 granite top saw with cabinet mounted trunnions, or older Jet Proshop (no riving knife). SawStop does have a 110v contractor saw that I've heard is pretty nicely built.


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Wow, thanks to all for some really good input. I can appreciate the comments on cabinet saws, but I'm still a bit leary about getting a beast of a machine down into the basement....and back out some day. Sawstop does have a mid grade machine with a 110v motor. Yes, its pricey, but solidly built. The Sawstop Contractor saw does seem interesting, and comes with a dust shroud around the blade....seems like a better way to capture dust when compared to other similar type saws. 

Good info on the job site saws. Those are out for sure. The Festool system was interesting, but seems to be largely dependent on your measurements and ability to align the track to your marks....how is that repeatable....guess I don't fully understand that system.

Oh, to clarify, the Delta saw aligned properly with the motor unmounted, and I mean perfectly. When the motor was reinstalled, we checked it again.....and 30 thousandths out. The tech thought the weight of the motor caused the "slop" in trunions to create the misalignment...that's one theory anyhow. If I didn't see it myself, I wouldn't believe it. Not enough play in the trunion mounts to realign, even after drilling out the rear a bit.

Ok, so I'm leaning towards Sawstop but not sure yet on model. Of course, Delta has yet to confirm they are standing behind a refund....and I hear the Delta tool line is being sold off to another company...not sure on timing.


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## JohnK007 (Nov 14, 2009)

Of the options you list, sell the Incra and buy the Sawstop. But I'd really consider the heftier 220v 3HP motor if the extra $$ doesn't scare you. If 220 is absolutely a no-go then I'd get the 1.75HP 110V SawStop if I were spending your money.


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## cody.sheridan-2008 (May 23, 2010)

I really wouldn't even think of a saw not fitted with the saw stop device. Do you have seatbelts and airbags fitted in your car? It really can save your finges hands and other protrusions and I feel that is priceless. Think about it the tablesaw it is probably one of the most dangerous and most used tools in the shop IT"S WORTH THE INVESTMENT!!! Do yourself a faver use modern techknowledgy to save your appendices! On top this they are apparently very good quality saws. Take a look at the thread I started awhile ago named 'Sawstop!'(can't link it now).

I agree that 230v power is worth the investment. Mind you in Australia we have 240v and it it recommeded to go to 3ph or 415v ab bit funny really.:icon_rolleyes:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

cody.sheridan-2008 said:


> Take a look at the thread I started awhile ago named 'Sawstop!'(can't link it now).



This thread?











 









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## del schisler (Nov 5, 2009)

jascotx said:


> I bought a Delta hybrid saw in 2007 and upgraded the fence to the Incra system with 52 in rails and a shared router table. Yes, I spent some money and time on this setup. Now, the saw is way out of alignment. Blade is out .040 front to back, and won't come back in, even after 3 Delta tech visits and new front & rear trunion changes....and enlarging rear trunion mounting holes. I cannot explain it b/c with the motor off, the blade can be aligned perfectly...put the motor back on...no way!
> 
> Anyhow, Delta has tentatively agreed to refund the money I originally spent on the saw. So, I'm considering what my next options are. I have a smaller basement shop where mobile tools tend to allow more flexibility. If I have to do it over again, I will definitely keep the router unit separate for convenience, and use rails on the TS - I never try to cut full sheets due to the awkardness.
> 
> ...


have them replace the saw??? Bring it down the basement and set it up. Now if you get the money you have to do it all. I guess they get the saw ?? If it was in alignment before it should do it again. Some one is missing something here. I would have them take the saw back where they work and eather fix it or replace it ?? I have i belive the same saw. Mine is spot on. What did you do or how did you find it was out. Was it with the new fence made you wake up. It may have been out that way from the start ?? Or did it work fine and all than with the new fence you found out the wood burning at the back ??


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## cowboy dan (Apr 11, 2010)

i like the saw stop, but it's way out of my price range. i settled on a rigid brand saw. mobility has been my focus in my shop. i never know where something needs to be untill i try the place out. that was why i bought this saw. cabinet saws are the best, they are also the most $$$, you do get what you pay for. wiring the shop for 240 for some applications is needed. this rigid ts of mine has 2 ratings on the motor. one, 13amps @110v and 6amps @240v.. in the book it says that i can just switch the plug end for a 240 plug. my saw is very heavy but my 5yr old daughter can lift it and then push it. the folks at saw stop made several attempts at retrofitting saws already on the market. none of them worked to anyones benefit. if they could fit one succesfully i'd buy it... untill then, i fear moving blade like i fear god... and my wife


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*The motor causes something to shift*

Tech said:
Oh, to clarify, the Delta saw aligned properly with the motor unmounted, and I mean perfectly. When the motor was reinstalled, we checked it again.....and 30 thousandths out. The tech thought the weight of the motor caused the "slop" in trunions to create the misalignment...that's one theory anyhow. If I didn't see it myself, I wouldn't believe it. Not enough play in the trunion mounts to realign, even after drilling out the rear a bit.


The weight of the motor is causing something to shift or bend.
Is the alignment process meant to be done with the motor on or off...it really shouldn't matter except in your case it does???
I would take the motor off, align it, then tighten the trunnions and then see if a lever applied one way or the other will cause the end condition you experience.
If so, it means that the holes are too sloppy/enlarged in one place and too small/ tight in the other. A better hardened washer with serrations will hold position more securely. Filling the enlarged holes with JB weld will also prevent shifting.
It's not rocket science and you sound like the right guy to tackle this. :thumbsup: bill


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Del, when I originally set up my Delta Hybrid TS I checked alignment and it was out by only .003 front to back relative to miter slot, which was well within tolerance for this saw. I noticed the problem when I attempted a 45 deg bevel and saw the saw blade hitting the throat plate. I returned the blade to 90, and I could see the misalignment, when I measured it was out more than .030 front to back. 

I agree that mechanically this saw can be forced into submission and realigned, BUT will it stay that way!? And if it does shift again, will it be while its in use?? Bottom line is I'm not interested in losing a few fingers and suing Delta for it. IMO unreliable equipment has no place in the shop. I check my machines regularly and readjust accordingly, but in this case its way more than an adjustment.....shouldn't be that way. I'm convinced something is flawed with that motor mount and trunion design. 

The good news I have to report is that Delta has stood by their word to give my money back. They would have replaced the saw, but they don't make it anymore. I really like the Sawstop professional, but I started adding up the extras....the saw is $2200 and all the extra stuff puts you at $3000 easy. Someone tell me that saw is worth 3x what a normal hybrid is selling for? I have to sleep on that one. I have the cash, but need to know the value is there. Now if Sawstop had a lifetime warranty....now we're talkin. Not sure what there's is.....anyone know?


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

jascotx,

Good luck with your search. I've used and read a lot about table saws. Having to pick *one* is a daunting task.

The point of my post is - 
I can't imagine woodworking without my table saw. A good solid table saw with a solid top is the heart of my shop. I use it for about any cut imaginable, occasional glue ups (MDF on top, of course), heck I even use the sold flat top to sharpen tools and a thousand other things. 
Personally, I would consider replacing my TS with a handsaw configuration, a woodworking handicap. 

I'm sure others can disagree with my thoughts. But, quite simply, cutting several 1 inch boards at exactly the same width, for example, takes about 30 seconds for setup and cut on a TS. You can certainly do it with a Festool system, but not nearly as quick and easy.

Just my thought. Hope it helps.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

jascotx said:


> I really like the Sawstop professional, but I started adding up the extras....the saw is $2200 and all the extra stuff puts you at $3000 easy. Someone tell me that saw is worth 3x what a normal hybrid is selling for?


There is way too much emotion in that type of discussion and all that I'll do is quote what my current instructor at school said about replacing the table saws at school. 

Getting table saws without the sawstop technology is for protecting students everywhere. A student can go out and use any table saw safely without depending upon the technology.

To me that is logic that I can't refute.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

rrich said:


> There is way too much emotion in that type of discussion and all that I'll do is quote what my current instructor at school said about replacing the table saws at school.
> 
> Getting table saws without the sawstop technology is for protecting students everywhere. A student can go out and use any table saw safely without depending upon the technology.
> 
> To me that is logic that I can't refute.


IMO, that's dumb logic. There will be students on other brands that will cut off their fingers. They weren't depending on the technology, and the technology wasn't there at a split moment of indiscretion. 

Might as well leave the saw guard off too. Heck...that's technology they don't need to depend on either.












 









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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

I think cabinetman and rrich both have valid points. Nobody should ever RELY on a safety device to keep them safe...your own noggen is the ultimate safety device. That said, do we drive around without seatbelts so that we drive more carefully.....sorry rrich, but your teacher made a stupid comment. Nobody ever starts a project saying, "Gee how can I be as careless as possible and cut my finger off today..." Accidents are unplanned events, and safety devices are designed to save our keisters when dumb stuff happens. Do you not use feather boards, push sticks, eye protection, dust colllection either? If you don't, I wouldn't want to work anywhere near you...just b/c someone says something, or its printed in a magazine doesn't make it gospel. That's why picking a TS is so dang difficult. You have to do your homework, and think about things and how they will affect your work and what limitations your own shop has.


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey clarionflyer, I thought I was the only dude putting mdf on top of my saw to use as a make shift bench. I know its bad to do, but there's only so much space in my basement. 

Fyi- for those who are contemplating drinking the Sawstop kool aide, the Contractor version is warrantied for 1 year, the professional is for 2 years. Use an American Express to buy it, and it will extend the manufacture warranty...I think up to a year...for free.

In terms of overall quality, is there a better saw powered on 110v out there than the Sawstop professional 1.75 hp? Is the contractor model just as good (does anyone know first hand)? Those are my big questions.

Thanks again for all of the comments. We may not all agree, but it helps to hear things that make a person think twice.


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

jascotx said:


> Nobody should ever RELY on a safety device to keep them safe...your own noggen is the ultimate safety device.


You are so right about THINKING. 

What the instructor was really saying is that the school is so anal retentive about safety is that the students are safe regardless of where they use a table saw. If a student knows and practices safe table saw procedures they will never trip a SS mechanism. I tend to agree with that philosophy.

I know that the safety emphasis at school has followed me into my own shop, thankfully. 

There are so many times that I've stood in front of a power tool and thought, "This doesn't look right. There has to be a safer way."


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## ScottyB (Mar 1, 2009)

I think the problem is that everyone is afraid of liability. To protect against liability, manufacturers come out with new and improved safety devices. This is not a bad thing. The bad thing is when people start to think the safety devices are there to protect them. I approach anything that utilizes a safety (tool, vehicle, gun, etc) with the same attitude: The only safety is the one between my ears. All the others can and will fail you at some point so the only one you can control is your own brain. I've heard too many people get hurt after saying that there is a safety there to prevent that so they can operate in an unsafe manner. Safeties are not a bad thing, unless they are the only relying on those safeties. 

We need to teach the younger generations how to THINK! If you learn to think, the other safeties are luxuries. If you don't think, they are liabilities.


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## clarionflyer (Apr 27, 2008)

I don't think MDF on the table is bad. Just don't leave it there too long (moisture). There are a lot of great saws out there - used, new, expensive, and even cheap. Find one that fits you (or fits with some personal refinements). But be warned, once you've used a heavy, solid, accurate TS there's no going back. )))


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Well, here's another update on saw selection. The spendy option of choice seems to be the Sawstop Professional saw, but be prepared to pay for all the "extras" and have around $3500 handy. Nonetheless, a great saw with additional safety...just make sure to read up on proper operation with wet wood beforehand.

If you need a more budget friendly option, got to Sears and take a look at their 1.5 hp zip code saw, model OR35505 (used to be called the 22114). It has a cabinet mounted trunion (NOT top mounted) and seems to be loved by everyone who owns one. Look for the one with stubby legs, but don't be confused by the cheaper look alike with wheels. Not the same. Also avoid their current granite topped model. 

IF you can find a Rigid 4511 in good shape it is similar to the CM 22114 but with a mobile base and granite top. Check the recall on the arbor and ways to stiffen the base....otherwise a great saw, supposedly. Then there's the CM 22124...much like the 22114 you can still buy, but has a full cabinet base and I thik a 1.75 hp motor.


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Cost-wise the CM 22114 is running around $650.


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## WILSOCT (Dec 27, 2010)

*About to make my decision for new TS*

Hey everyone. I'm new to the forum. 
I've been a weekend woodworker for several years. I have been using an old craftsman table saw that belonged to my Dad. He bought it in 1976. I've run several thousand feet of all kinds of stuff through it. Well, the old saw finally died. It was a cheaper model but it was great to learn on. Now, I'm wanting to buy new TS and have about $500 to spend.

I read and re-read many of the posts on this great forum and think I've come down to the following:


Rigid R4512 (from the Orange/White store) ~$550. My current personal choice. Great reviews but am curious if all of my Craftsman stuff will work on it (e.g. Dado set, molding head). Also, does this table saw have a place where I could mount my router ? This would not be a show stopper.

Porter-Cable PCB270TS (from the Blue/White store) ~$600. Little more than I really want to pay but if your input is strong enough I'd probably spend the money. Reviews on the dealer website are generally great.

Craftsman Model # 21828 ~$450 - has pretty good reviews but am concerned about comments regarding the miter grooves and dado stacks.

I am an intermediate use kind of guy. I'm not a cabinet maker but would like to be able to make straighter cuts, tighter joints, and more accurate cuts than I've been used to. Additionally, I'd like the benefit of "upgrading" to take advantage of newer technology that wasn't existing in my old 30+ year old saw. 

As a weekender, I have to set my garage up each and every project. So, size and portability are factors. I like these models because they do have wheels on them. When I retire in a few years, I'm going to get a larger shop where I can leave this stuff out.

Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

In the $600 range, I'd add the Steel City 35990C to my short list of new table saws. Cabinet mounted trunnions, cast iron wings, riving knife, built in wheels, reasonable fence (they also make the Cman 22116 and former Ridgid R4511). 

Also, you might get more interest if you start a new thread about your quest....this one's been around the block a few times. Welcome to WWT.com. :thumbsup:

*Edit 1/31/11:
I'd now suggest caution regarding the Steel City 35990....there are a few early reports of vibration issues. Hopefully the issues are just "early run" type problems that will be worked out, but for now, I'd be hesitant to go this route. *


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## jascotx (Dec 2, 2010)

Knotscott is right. Look at Steel City's saw and the Craftsman 22116. These would be your best budget options. Rigid doesn't offer their saw any longer, and The Borg doesn't have any more in inventory...last I checked. The biggest benefit to these saws are the cabinet mounted trunions. Nobody else is making a hybrid saw this way. MUCH easier to align. If a quality fence matters you might use that criteria to make the final decision. I all ready have a good set up. As a side note, I have a 3yr old Delta T2 fence still in the box, never opened...be glad to trade it to someone....not sure for what yet. 

Rockler had a mobile base running about $40 with free delivery recently. Works well with the CM saw. I would also recommend investing in a good thin kerf blade....Forrest or Teniryu.


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## Albiontiger (Jan 3, 2011)

Hello, I am a new member to the forum. I am in the market for a table saw. I am a DIYer that likes nice tools. Is there a table saw out there that gives me some bang for the buck. CPO is an option. I am in the market to spend a max of $400. 

Thanks
Albiontiger


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

rrich said:


> I'm sort of amazed that the Delta saw can't be aligned. In reading your post, you say that you can align the saw perfectly and then power up the saw and the saw has jumped out of alignment.
> 
> If that is the case, I would almost bet that you need new washers on the bolts holding the trunnion to the table top. (Use garage door washers as they are hardened and shouldn't deform when torqued down.)
> 
> ...



They are a lot more versatile then most think. I have built numerous projects with my TS-55, you just need to know how to square up you panels.

They make a parallel guide system for it as well. That was their answer to repeatable sized cuts. It works very well. No matter if I had a big cabinet saw or not, I would still break the sheet goods down with the TS-55 first and then you could size them on a table saw. Wrestling full sheets on a table saw is not the most fun task.

However, I am about to pick up 3 cabinet saws, one or two will be set up for single tasks and never move.


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## dvalery20 (Jan 27, 2011)

jascotx said:


> Wow, thanks to all for some really good input. I can appreciate the comments on cabinet saws, but I'm still a bit leary about getting a beast of a machine down into the basement....and back out some day. Sawstop does have a mid grade machine with a 110v motor. Yes, its pricey, but solidly built. The Sawstop Contractor saw does seem interesting, and comes with a dust shroud around the blade....seems like a better way to capture dust when compared to other similar type saws.
> 
> Good info on the job site saws. Those are out for sure. The Festool system was interesting, but seems to be largely dependent on your measurements and ability to align the track to your marks....how is that repeatable....guess I don't fully understand that system.
> 
> ...


Made in Taiwan right?


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## liv2coonhunt (Mar 12, 2011)

As a weekend wood worker I have found my Festool TS75 to do everything I need. I have had to build a few jigs for thin stock but it has worked wonderfully. Will never try and size down another full sheet of plywood with a TS again.


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