# Drill Press Run-out - Is there a non-gauge method to measure it?



## dejones (Oct 15, 2010)

Hi,

I have a Ryobi 12" bench drill press. On occasion, I get the whim that perhaps I should upgrade to something else, but I come around and realize that I don't use it anywhere near enough to observe any shortfalls others might find with it.

Today was one of those days and to recover, I spent the morning tuning it up (made the table as square to the bit as I could; adjusted the lasers as best I could; figured out how to use the "stop").

Anyway here is my question: is there an easy way to determine if I have too much run-out? I noticed on other posts that there is a gauge for this but I do not have one.

Is it easy to see the effects of run-out on the edges of holes that have been drilled with a run-outy drill press?

Is seems to me that if I use center-point drill bits, the point of the bit would anchor it somewhat and so minimize the effects of runout.

Thanks,
Duncan


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Just get a cheap 1" indicator, if you really want to know how much runout/'wobble' you have. Even the cheapies are pretty good nowadays.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

A drill bit wouldn't "center" enough to keep the runout to a minimum. You might check the bit for straight. Check the chuck to see if it's seated properly. A gauge would only tell you if there was runout, not much help in fixing it.

If you do have runout, a drilled hole shape will reveal a problem. You may even be able to see a "wobble" looking at a slow spinning bit.












 









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## Gene Howe (Feb 28, 2009)

Take a stiff wire, I use clothes hanger wire, cut it at about 12-14" long.
Bend about 5-6"" of one end to 90 deg. then about an inch bend that so the final 1 " piece is parallel with the longer piece. It's like an "L" with the bottom leg bent down.
Now chuck the wire into the drill and rotate the chuck by hand. 
This will insure that the bit and table are at a 90 to each other. 
You might be able to see a variance in the arc made by the wire, too.

But to check for run out with a dial indicator, you'll need a piece of smooth drill rod about a foot long, or so.


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## mickit (Oct 5, 2009)

Duncan, The easiest method I know of, without an indicator, is to chuck up the smallest twist bit you can safely grip. Lower the running drill lightly onto a piece of tear out resistant material until the point just scribes the surface. The diameter of the scribed circle is twice your run out. Of course, if you can actually see the circle, you've got problems that may be something else. Try cleaning and remounting the chuck on the spindle. Irregularly shaped holes may be telling you the bit is bad.
Just my two cents...


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Theres sumthin to be said for payin your dues in DP world.Proper workholding and proper "bit" geometry is PARAMOUNT!!

IOWs,you could have a 3K $ gearhead DP with new bearings and still not be getting good results......next guy is using an 80 y.o. clapped out POS and getting perfect holes,huh?Its technique and lots of practice,both of which are irrespective of the machine.Heck yeah,a nice tight machine will make your life easier.....but it won't make up for poor setup and worse,out of spec drills.BW


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

BWSmith said:


> Theres sumthin to be said for payin your dues in DP world.Proper workholding and proper "bit" geometry is PARAMOUNT!!
> 
> IOWs,you could have a 3K $ gearhead DP with new bearings and still not be getting good results......next guy is using an 80 y.o. clapped out POS and getting perfect holes,huh?Its technique and lots of practice,both of which are irrespective of the machine.Heck yeah,a nice tight machine will make your life easier.....but it won't make up for poor setup and worse,out of spec drills.BW


How do you have poor setup and technique with a drill press? What does practise do for you?

The only thing that I can think of is getting the bit in the chuck "cockeyed". Otherwise it is pretty much a mechanical thingy.

If the bit is straight and properly chucked, just what else can the operator do? Well, I guess not force feed the bit into the object material.

George


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Dang you're not serious?

Practice would be when you are forced to come up with solutions for the perfect hole when using less than perfect conditions.A simple drill guide or bushing.If you have no exp on a DP then you wouldn't know that drilling round stock is difficult at best without a guide or other techniques.

Whats this a test question George?

Workholding is a newb trying to hold sumthin with his hand and having the part spin around and smack him upside the head.....VS....using a nice Clamp or vise.


Ever sharpen a drill George?

Drill geometry is important because it effects the runout and ease at which it works.Basically the more "wacked" or out of spec the drill "bit" the more it shows up in hole.It may appear the bearings are spent when in fact the geometry is wrong.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

chuck up a bit, leaving some shank below the chuck. take a foot long rod, stick, whatever (coat hanger), and anchor it a few inches behind the bit so that it will pivot. with the rod riding against the bit shaft and pivoting behind you will see the runout. run dp on slowest setting or by hand.


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

*Weakest Link*

The issue usually is not the drill press but the chuck.
Most drill chucks (if not all) Jacobs chucks that come with drill presses are not the high end precision models.
You may want to consider upgrading to a more precise chuck.

Also, over tightening will cause the "fingers" in the chuck to pull to one side. That is why there are three places for the chuck key to fit into the chuck. Tighten all three evenly until you are satisfied. But don't use any more pressure than you can with just the chuck key and your hands. Using a cheater will only damage the internals of the chuck.
Once a chuck is damaged, its cheaper to buy another one.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

BWSmith said:


> Dang you're not serious?
> 
> Practice would be when you are forced to come up with solutions for the perfect hole when using less than perfect conditions.A simple drill guide or bushing.If you have no exp on a DP then you wouldn't know that drilling round stock is difficult at best without a guide or other techniques.
> 
> ...


You did not really answer my question. 

Practise is not coming up with solutions. Practise is doing the same thing over and over until you get it right. Just what is it that you are going to practise. Coming up with solutions is problem solving.

Tell me about the poor setup and technique. Just how much setup and technique is involved in inserting a bit into the chuck? The original question was about out of round holes.

George


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

George,I'm sorry....it seems you want an argument.You'll get none from me.Will stand by what I posted....the first time.Have a wonderful day!BW


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*hey BW*

I've drilled thousands of holes over the years, in metal, sheet metal, wood, concrete, and plastic. I've used milling machines, drill presses, hand drills and electric drills. I'm not an expert, just experienced. I've sharpened my own twist drills by hand and by using a sharpening jig, which I really like, by the way, since it puts the relief angle on both edges evenly.
I've also figured out that a well placed pilot hole is worth the additional difficulty in all but the least demanding situations, IE rough carpentry. The pilot hole in thicker metals makes the large hole easier to drill as well as locating it accurately. The use of cutting fluids also make the work 10x easier. I've drilled 11/4" holes in steel using a 1/2" drill in a stand, by "creeping up" on the size gradually.
So all this discussion about wobbly holes, practice and run out is a little baffling. The drill chuck and arbor is what it is, and if it's "far out", not much can be done to get a good clean hole in either wood or metal. Also if the material held is in a vise and is not free to self center itself on the pilot hole it may not be as accurate. 
Your thoughts?  bill
BTW to determine the run out visually, a straight piece of drill rod about 6" long or so chucked up will show a deviation at the lower tip if things are "far out":blink:


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## Kirkus (Dec 19, 2010)

Can I interrupt djones' thread and ask a related question?

How do you get the chuck off of a DP? I have run-out on my DP and my first thought was to take the chuck off and check for any loose thingys that might be causing it to be mounted a little crooked. Even replace it if necessary. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the chuck off. It's a really old DP and the chuck has probably been on there the whole time. I mean, short of getting a block of wood and heavy mallet, is there an easier way?


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## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

Kirkus said:


> Can I interrupt djones' thread and ask a related question?
> 
> How do you get the chuck off of a DP? I have run-out on my DP and my first thought was to take the chuck off and check for any loose thingys that might be causing it to be mounted a little crooked. Even replace it if necessary. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the chuck off. It's a really old DP and the chuck has probably been on there the whole time. I mean, short of getting a block of wood and heavy mallet, is there an easier way?


 

Most chucks are held in place with Morse tapers. Here's a set of wedges, helps keep the chuck body from damage:

http://www.jacobschuck.com/product_details.asp?pid=29


Some of the old models also had screw on mounting.

Hope this helps.


Here's a PDF:

http://www.jacobschuck.com/images/products/accessory.pdf


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## BWSmith (Aug 24, 2010)

Beats me wood,thought I was giving a positive answer/suggestion?Felt like the OP had paid his dues and was looking to maybe upgrade?Heck,the bearings could be adj on his DP for all I know?

But if a person is using "crummy" techniques or out of spec "bits" the best DP in the world will/can drill an oval,oversize,or wacked hole.......irrespective of the bearings.That wasn't directed at anyone,just sayin?

Hey,you want to wreck a nice DP or Bridgeport?Throw a cheap holesaw in and watch the fun?Take that same cheap holesaw and run it through a pilot/bushing and now it cuts like....well it still ain't right but at least your not trashin the eqp.Best practices and all that?So throwin out things folks can do to drill a nice hole...in my pea brain tends to weigh in more on "best practices" than bearing runout......personally,I kinda like replacing bearings.Its a cost vs result thing.BW


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*There is practice and then "practises"*

I think our friend George took the first fork in the road rather than your intended one, which I take to mean, proper set up, sharp drills, pilot holes, correct speed/feed...those kind of practices. I probably have more drill bits than drywall screws, if not, pretty close, and that's a whole lot. I sharpen them when I can't find one that I need, 'cause I know there ain't nuthin' like a sharp twist drill when working in metal. Brad points and Forstners are probably out of my skill level, but as a last resort I'd try a Dremel and a Magnifying lamp. Hole saws are another issue. I have lots of practice and also use the best practices I can....Just sayin'  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I don't know about everyone else, but I can see a wobbly bit as soon as I turn on the DP, or a drill.












 









.


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## dejones (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions.

While I can see a blur at the ends of spinning bits before they touch any wood, the blur pretty much disappears upon contacting the wood, so I feel comfortable that my DP is doing the right thing (at least to the accuracy I think I need), touch wood...


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## Texas Sawduster (Apr 27, 2009)

*Blur*



dejones said:


> Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions.
> 
> While I can see a blur at the ends of spinning bits before they touch any wood, the blur pretty much disappears upon contacting the wood, so I feel comfortable that my DP is doing the right thing (at least to the accuracy I think I need), touch wood...


Well, my DP did that as well. What I found out on my DP is that the Jacobs chuck has a Morse Taper shank that fits into the Quill of the DP. In my case the Chuck was not seated properly. This can and will happen with a Morse Taper shank. Also if the MT has any dirt, dings, scratches etc. it will not seat properly and will run out. 

If the bit is not "blurred" when it touched the wood/steel then you are probably seeing the drill and chuck move just enough to the actual centerline of the quill. This will happen naturally in the case of a off center drill bit that has this condition.
Note: There is probably also some play in the Quill bearings as a DP is designed to load from the end of the bit/tool and not designed to accomodate a sideways load. As in a milling condition. Unless you have a high end drill press with bearings/quill designed for side loads.

Try removing the chuck as suggested with the proper tool, clean everything well and re-install the chuck. You should get different results. If not, then try a new chuck. If you get the same results then I would suspect the quill bearings are not a good quality type.

If that fails, then the quill is machined of centerline. This would be the extreme case I think.

Hope this helps.


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