# Safety Considerations for Newbies.



## dw85745 (Aug 9, 2014)

Thought I'd put my 2Cents in on Shop Safety.

If you don't have the ability to setup a permanent workshop and leave all tools in place then IMO shop safety is of a major concern for hobbyists and those not in the trade, such as myself.

My primary objective is to get particular jobs done -- eg. bathroom and kitchen redos. Like most, I want to get to the project and get it done, rather than setting equipment up (when I need it) and breaking it down (after each days use).

Since a lot of this equipment is dangerous to humans, and most of us have the attitude nothing can happen to us, all I can say is accidents happen.

1) The first thing I would take into consideration is how much is a finger or two, or a hand worth?

2) The second is how much are you willing to spend to be safe?

You can buy a "Saw Stop" {patented}, but they run several thousands dollars and I don't believe they are designed for other than stationary equipment. I haven't seen anything for routers, joiners and planners.

3) Dust collection is another big issue as breathing all the dust is not good for our lungs. 

4) Hearing and eye protection is also a must.

That's just is the tip of the iceberg to consider for safety before one spends a dime on equipment.

If we factor in the cost of equipment, time spent making jigs, shagging supplies and cost of those supplies, one might want to take a second look at doing it themselves.

But I guess woodworkers are like fisherman, you end up spending $1000 dollars for every pound of fish which they sell for $12 a pound in the supermarket.

FWIW.


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## UnisawGuy (Jul 20, 2014)

Safety is an attitude, a mental approach to woodworking. The quality or portability of the equipment has little to with the dangers of woodworking.
A neighbor had a sign in his shop; "THINK, or bleed. Your choice."



dw85745 said:


> If you don't have the ability to setup a permanent workshop and leave all tools in place then IMO shop safety is of a major concern for hobbyists and those not in the trade, such as myself.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

"But I guess woodworkers are like fisherman, you end up spending $1000 dollars for every pound of fish which they sell for $12 a pound in the supermarket."

Absolutely and profoundly disagree. While this may be true for some people, I do not think that is the case for most woodworkers.

George


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Adamantly disagree. I can get all the safety equipment one needs for even a professional shop for $60, tops. For even a weekend warrior, all the safety equipment you really "need" is a pair of safety glasses, $10, ear plugs, .50$, a dust mask, $2, and common sense. You dont need a saw stop and a 3k dust collector, you just need to know not to poke the blade and snort the saw dust


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## dw85745 (Aug 9, 2014)

While i emphatically agree with common sense plays a great roll, and this says it all:



> "THINK, or bleed. Your choice."


I do disagree that NOT having a permanent place to work is a great contributor to accidents.
The reason for this is people tend to take more risks.
For example, a permanent setup can have a table saw (or whatever) with an infeed and outfeed table level, solid, and in place. It can also have a "Saw Stop" installed. 

On the other hand a portable table saw (or whatever) has to have an infeed and outfeed table constructed or setup for each job -- in a lot of cases constructed daily While this can be done, and done well, doing so puts additional personal pressure on one trying to do the the job or get it done.

If you look at the statistics of shop accidents, especially table saw, and the number of fingers lost or mangled, I think you'll find most occurred in a none permanent settings.

The intent of my post was NOT to put this up for debate over the reasons why, but just to point out the potential consequences, including monetary outlay, to accomplish a small job which might be left to someone who has a permanent setup. This does NOT take into account the satisfaction of "doing it yourself", but that satisfaction will be long forgotten if everyday you wish you had your finger(s) back.


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## mmwood_1 (Oct 24, 2007)

dw85745 said:


> If you look at the statistics of shop accidents, especially table saw, and the number of fingers lost or mangled, I think you'll find most occurred in a none permanent settings.


Have you seen such a collection of statistics? Or are you making this up based on what you think? Or based on your own practices? If there is such a statistical collection, could you please give a link or some other way to access it? I'd be interested.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*tablesaw accident stats*

A few sources here:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/table-saw-injury-numbers-in-perspective

http://tablesawaccidents.com/

http://sawaccidents.com/recently-added-accidents.htm

I don't think the info in these stats breaks down the location or the type of tablesaw involved in the injury.
For what it's worth in my observation, jobsite proceedures are "typically" under supervised, sometimes outdoors and not in ideal conditions, sometimes rushed where short cuts may be taken, in a cluttered environment, with lighter less stable equipment, and therefore more prone to potential mishaps. In an indoor shop, a heavy cabinet saw, with an outfeed table, blade guard in place, well lighted, with other accessories available would be a better and more safe environment. JMHO.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

100% percent of high speed collisions happen at high speeds, and 70% of statics are made up on the spot. If more accidents occur in a "nonpermanent" setting, odds are is like wooden things said, its because they were doing something stupid and rushing a job, and they made a mistake. The same things are liable to happen on a big old cabinet maker saw, the reason you don't hear about many accidents on those isn't because they're permanent installatons, or because they're one out of every several thousand saws fitted with a saw stop, its because they're used by an intelligent craftsman who knows not to make stupid moves around them. Portable shops don't cause accidents, the stupid people using them do


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## dw85745 (Aug 9, 2014)

mmwood_1:

'm inferring from some of the article I'm read from internet searches.
Here's one. 



> http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/24638/new-study-discusses-tablesaw-injuries


This talks of none work related. Will have to check OSHUA for work related.

That just refers to table saws.
Years ago -- maybe 40 -- saw a guy who was missing three fingers.
Joiner accident three separate times.

Most users, and I'm sure a lot of businesses don't know what goes into tool production. For example the requirement for Magflux testing on striking tools (hammer for example). All US manufactures do it, but with all this cheap stuff from overseas who knows. Look at your local ACE and see where the hammers are from.

Never got involved with the manufacture of saw blades or router bits, but my guess is they should also be Magfluxed. I do know years ago there was a dumping case of striking tools against China as they were attempting to corner the market. I doubt they Magflux?


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

shop safety is an important part of our everyday life as wood workers, I believe, & it can be taken to what ever level a fella feels comfortable with. I'd tend to agree with Epic & woodenthings, accidents in the shop, work area, job site, are seldom fault of the of the equipment. But, DW, I also agree with you that there are more & more folks buyin' tools they don't realize the consequence of a misunderstanding between them & the tools they are using. There is teeth is one end of that piece of equipment for a reason, & it damn sure wasn't designed for hands or fingers!! Table saws, jointers, & planers, the way I look at that situation, when you flip the power button & can plainly see what's happenin', & have limited facilities enough not to RESPECT what COULD happen, & what WILL happen is on YOU!! To stand BEHIND a table saw is pure STUPIDTY to start with, and if you don't take the proper safety measures, YEP! you're going to get bit!! A jointer, WHY would you NOT use safety push blocks? DUH?? A PLANER?!? I am YET to figure out how some of those accidents happen! A router, yea, maybe there's a SMALL possibility of gettin' bit, but its pretty unlikely, IMO. A band saw, etc, if you can't feel that blade start to bite ya, and you don't take the precautions, how can ya blame the machine? Nail guns, speakin' from experience, if your fingers ain't where they should be, ya damn right they're going to end up with nails in them!! What it comes down to, IMO, is payin' attention to what's going on around you, and respect for your tools at all times!! I also believe shop CLEANLINESS plays a big part in shop safety!! Gentleman, you can put all the bells & whistles ya want on a piece of equipment, and EVERY SAFETY DEVICE known to man for that tool, & trust me when I tell ya, some damn fool will SOMEHOW manage to get himself bit!! So, at the end the of the day, it comes back to YOU! My apologies for the "rant", just my two cents.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

sawdust703 said:


> shop safety is an important part of our everyday life as wood workers, I believe, & it can be taken to what ever level a fella feels comfortable with. I'd tend to agree with Epic & woodenthings, accidents in the shop, work area, job site, are seldom fault of the of the equipment. But, DW, I also agree with you that there are more & more folks buyin' tools they don't realize the consequence of a misunderstanding between them & the tools they are using. There is teeth is one end of that piece of equipment for a reason, & it damn sure wasn't designed for hands or fingers!! Table saws, jointers, & planers, the way I look at that situation, when you flip the power button & can plainly see what's happenin', & have limited facilities enough not to RESPECT what COULD happen, & what WILL happen is on YOU!! To stand BEHIND a table saw is pure STUPIDTY to start with, and if you don't take the proper safety measures, YEP! you're going to get bit!! A jointer, WHY would you NOT use safety push blocks? DUH?? A PLANER?!? I am YET to figure out how some of those accidents happen! A router, yea, maybe there's a SMALL possibility of gettin' bit, but its pretty unlikely, IMO. A band saw, etc, if you can't feel that blade start to bite ya, and you don't take the precautions, how can ya blame the machine? Nail guns, speakin' from experience, if your fingers ain't where they should be, ya damn right they're going to end up with nails in them!! What it comes down to, IMO, is payin' attention to what's going on around you, and respect for your tools at all times!! I also believe shop CLEANLINESS plays a big part in shop safety!! Gentleman, you can put all the bells & whistles ya want on a piece of equipment, and EVERY SAFETY DEVICE known to man for that tool, & trust me when I tell ya, some damn fool will SOMEHOW manage to get himself bit!! So, at the end the of the day, it comes back to YOU! My apologies for the "rant", just my two cents.


Have you ever heard of the thing called a paragraph. I would not even try to read this.

George


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

mmwood_1 said:


> Have you seen such a collection of statistics? Or are you making this up based on what you think? Or based on your own practices? If there is such a statistical collection, could you please give a link or some other way to access it? I'd be interested.


I think you have the idea.

I did not read the original post thoroughly the first time I look at this topic. Upon more thorough reading I see that there are many assumptions in there that probably can not be backed up by facts.

George


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

epicfail48 said:


> Adamantly disagree. I can get all the safety equipment one needs for even a professional shop for $60, tops. For even a weekend warrior, all the safety equipment you really "need" is a pair of safety glasses, $10, ear plugs, .50$, a dust mask, $2, and common sense. You dont need a saw stop and a 3k dust collector, you just need to know not to poke the blade and snort the saw dust


Guessing you don't do much work in a paint room with chemicals that can seriously RUIN your day... Different respirators are REQUIRED to deal with particular agents being used. Some paints have more dangerous vapors than others and it pays to PAY ATTENTION to what exactly you are spraying and make sure you have the correct gear for it.

Depending on the wood you are cutting and the dust you are making - Sometimes you 'need' a really good dust collector else you WILL end up getting sick. I freaking despise redwood - Get a sinus infection most every time I mess with it in any sort of volume unless I work extra hard to keep it OUT of the air.


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

sawdust703 said:


> To stand BEHIND a table saw is pure STUPIDTY to start with, .


Which way does YOUR saw toss stuff when things are goofy?

EVERY table saw I have ever used tends to toss back towards the operator and NOT 'behind' the saw... Standing BEHIND the saw is the safest place when you have an idiot running the machine. Neither the material OR blood is likely to come flying in that direction. :yes:


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## sawdust703 (Jun 27, 2014)

Oops, my apologies Oneal. I did it again. i had an opinion, and forgot to ask one of you hotshots if I could voice it. And yes George, I have heard of a paragraph. You're right, there are an awful lot of big words in there if you're just learning to read. I keep forgetting that this particular forum is only for certain ones to have an opinion, voice it, & whatever the rest of us think is just nonsense. My sincere apologies for offending those of you that have the so called expertise the rest of us strive to accomplish daily.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I'd like to add something on the safety part of the board stretching contest going on here.

I try to make cuts on the table saw with the same technique each time. My stance, where I put my fingers on the board and when and how I use a push stick. Something my shop teacher taught us back when wood shop was still in schools.

Also, there could be a bit of truth to temp setups producing more accidents. I don't know how these job site guys do what they do with these box store saws out in the field. 

Al


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## asevereid (Apr 15, 2012)

Al B Thayer said:


> ... there could be a bit of truth to temp setups producing more accidents. I don't know how these job site guys do what they do with these box store saws out in the field.
> 
> Al


Very true. 
I've seen SO MANY close calls /near misses in the field with both table saws and mitre saws 
I use the same technique every time I cut anything with my mitre saw; checking to ensure the piece is firmly against the fence, hands are out of the way, etc. 
It's not a damn race for me.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Al B Thayer said:


> I'd like to add something on the safety part of the board stretching contest going on here. I try to make cuts on the table saw with the same technique each time. My stance, where I put my fingers on the board and when and how I use a push stick. Something my shop teacher taught us back when wood shop was still in schools. Also, there could be a bit of truth to temp setups producing more accidents. I don't know how these job site guys do what they do with these box store saws out in the field. Al


I can't even look at the big box contractor TS's. They look like an accident waiting to happen by a guy named stubs.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

OnealWoodworking said:


> Which way does YOUR saw toss stuff when things are goofy? EVERY table saw I have ever used tends to toss back towards the operator and NOT 'behind' the saw... Standing BEHIND the saw is the safest place when you have an idiot running the machine. Neither the material OR blood is likely to come flying in that direction. :yes:


Old quote I still live by:
Nothing ever good comes from standing between the miter slots


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## CherryWoodWorker (Nov 11, 2012)

Not trying to beat you up, but your facts are flawed. I am new to wood working. I learned the basics on remodeling from my father in-law who is a jack of all trades. I learned alot from him because I couldn't afford to hire the job out. Contractors aren't cheap and shady for the most part. Yes there are some great contractors out there. We hired a contractor to help us with doing a kitchen remodel and some other repairs. He tried to charge us $350 for a piece of stainless steal for a back splash for the stove. He said he custome made it. He bought it at lowes for $40. He tried to take shortcuts, and we busted his bubble. I think everyone should know how to be handy with the tools. and be able to fix minor problems. I think with all the knowledgeable people here, we all can learn how to do things and enjoy learning to work with wood. I have tools that I don't know how to use. That is why I am glad I found out about this site.It isn't rocket science, to know to keep your fingers away from the blades or bits. If you use the right safety equipment, and take your time,you can be successful on building things. Also, remember to ask the experts, if you don't know how to do something. The dumbest question, is the ones you don't ask. :thumbsup:


dw85745 said:


> While i emphatically agree with common sense plays a great roll, and this says it all:
> 
> I do disagree that NOT having a permanent place to work is a great contributor to accidents.
> The reason for this is people tend to take more risks.
> ...


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## BernieL (Oct 28, 2011)

There's an old saying - "Safety is no accident" which is important to remember because we have to work at it. For me, that includes acquiring good quality tools that don't shake and rattle. It means keeping my workspace clean and well lit. Try ripping a board on a saw with woodchips under the board and between the board and fence. Safety means I will take my time and use push sticks and guards etc. I will roll up my sleeve and remove my watch. 

It stands to reason why accidents are more apt to happen on a job site rather then in a shop. Jobs sites are busy with lots of distractions. Portable tools are less stable then floor models and tend to rattle and shake. And most guards and jigs are stored in the workshop.


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## CherryWoodWorker (Nov 11, 2012)

You are right, we had hired a contractor to do our kitchen. His workers just threw everything in a pile. They just laid their tools where ever and not even a safe place for them to walk. My wife and I cleaned up their mess so they could have a safe enviroment to work. The wife also told the worker in charge to tell his crew to keep organized so that they wouldn't get hurt.


BernieL said:


> There's an old saying - "Safety is no accident" which is important to remember because we have to work at it. For me, that includes acquiring good quality tools that don't shake and rattle. It means keeping my workspace clean and well lit. Try ripping a board on a saw with woodchips under the board and between the board and fence. Safety means I will take my time and use push sticks and guards etc. I will roll up my sleeve and remove my watch.
> 
> It stands to reason why accidents are more apt to happen on a job site rather then in a shop. Jobs sites are busy with lots of distractions. Portable tools are less stable then floor models and tend to rattle and shake. And most guards and jigs are stored in the workshop.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

CherryWoodWorker said:


> You are right, we had hired a contractor to do our kitchen. His workers just threw everything in a pile. They just laid their tools where ever and not even a safe place for them to walk. My wife and I cleaned up their mess so they could have a safe enviroment to work. The wife also told the worker in charge to tell his crew to keep organized so that they wouldn't get hurt.


Reminds me of the time when I was helping an electrician friend do some wiring in a basement reno, he laid out a box and whatever else we needed at each location on the floor below where they would be installed. We went out to his truck for our lunch and came back in to find the homeowner had picked everything up and put them neatly in a cardboard box for us.


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## CherryWoodWorker (Nov 11, 2012)

If your putting outlet boxes on the floor where you are going to install, that is one thing. When they were remodeling our kitchen, they were cutting in my garage. They had a huge pile of construction waste which covered 5 FT round. across the pile of trash, they threw all of there tools in a pile, which left about a foot for them to walk and I have a 1 car. garage They didn't bend any of the nails in the wood and it was a recipe for disaster. I myself have enough sense to keep my work area clean.


FrankC said:


> Reminds me of the time when I was helping an electrician friend do some wiring in a basement reno, he laid out a box and whatever else we needed at each location on the floor below where they would be installed. We went out to his truck for our lunch and came back in to find the homeowner had picked everything up and put them neatly in a cardboard box for us.


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