# Dust collection question



## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

I am starting research what kind of dust collection setup for my shop. After reading bill pentz's website and some post here, I am so scared and don't want to turn on my new sawstop table saw. 

Here I have some questions and options need advise from you.

I currently have a 2 car garage and I am using half of them as my shop. I am ok to move the dust collector or the machine close together everytime I use them, and operating one machine at a time.

1. I see there are dust collection machine and air filter system. do I need both or just dust collection is ok? I am thinking of a Jet 1100 series DC.
2. The clear vue cyclone is out of my budget, if I build one myself use Bill's plan, I don't know if I can handle if or not, has anyone have experience of build one by yourself? how much will it cost?
3. Do I still need wear respirator after the dust collection setup?


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

From a health standpoint the ambient air cleaners do little to help your lungs, but the time it collcets the dust it's already in your lungs. But in terms of helping keep the shop clean, especially prior to a finishing effort, they work very well. Besides, even a world class DC doesn't get everything. But I think I would consider a good vac to go with the DC, it's really useful for many of the hand held tools where the DC doesn't work all that well. I have built a cyclone, the one Wood magazine published back in the 90's. Believe it or not, I built it for less than $30 or so at the time...then hooked it to a $400 DC. (Let me add: the Pentz design is much more sophisticated. I don't think it would be a lot more expensive, but it will be more challenging to build.)It actually worked as well as the Oneida SDG I now have, at least in terms of separation. But my Oneida does move more air, hence capturing more dust. But that's the key to good DC, it doesn't matter what moves the air (single stage versus cyclone) as long as you move lots of it. That's why Pentz stresses the 1000 CFM number so much. But besides the DC that also requires ductworkj that supports that much movement, and the ducting can be very expensive. As for the respirator, the DC you've selected is a good one, but you may not be collecting all the very finest dust. You can judge after you get it in operation.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*collect it right at the source!*

The closer the DC or shop vac is to the source, the better it will work. Mine are on the mobile bases they came with, the Jet 1000, 1 1/2 HP units and when there is a smaller 2 1/2" port I hook up the shop vacs, Rigid 16 gal. 

This gets most of the dust, but I still have an overhead Jet AFS 1000 air filtration unit as well. Even with all that there is still some fine dust in the air. If I were to work all day long on a project, I would wear a mask and run the air filter continuously.

There is a significant amount of fine dust that spits out the top of the table saw IF you don't have the guard on. Some of the newer, better guards have a dust port on the top for a shop vac hose... great! Saw Stop has one I think?

The bandsaw is a stealth dust generator and make a lot of fine dust. Be sure to connect a shop vac right below the table for best results.

A shop vac and a Dust collector are different:
A DC moves air at higher volumes, CFMs, at lower velocity.
A shop vac moves air at high velocity, but lower volumes CFM.

Dust is also 2 different types, smaller fines from sawing or sanding and larger chips from jointing and planing. A drum sander will generate more dust than you can imagine and a shop vac can't keep up and will clog shortly. You need lots of filter area and or a separator to settle out the fines before the filter.

A planer or jointer will clog shortly with the large volume of chips into a shop vac, so a full size DC is best. 

Hand held sanders should have a small flexible dust hose connected to a shop vac for best results, Hand sanding produces a greater quantity of dust that you might think. A dust hood connected to a full size DC works well next to the project on the work bench for hand sanding.

A dust mask worn at all times certainly is your best insurance. :yes:

There is another rarely discussed operation that generates a ton of dust. ... cleaning out the DC's cartridge filter.. I carry mine outside and roll it around and dump it in the driveway, being careful not to bump any dust loose as I go down the stairs, not an easy chore. :no:


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks Fred, this is first time I heard about Oneida, seems a little bit higher quality than clear vue, but clear vue has a little bigger moto. what do you think about these 2 cyclones? Wife kind of give unlimited budget for healthy equipment.



Fred Hargis said:


> From a health standpoint the ambient air cleaners do little to help your lungs, but the time it collcets the dust it's already in your lungs. But in terms of helping keep the shop clean, especially prior to a finishing effort, they work very well. Besides, even a world class DC doesn't get everything. But I think I would consider a good vac to go with the DC, it's really useful for many of the hand held tools where the DC doesn't work all that well. I have built a cyclone, the one Wood magazine published back in the 90's. Believe it or not, I built it for less than $30 or so at the time...then hooked it to a $400 DC. (Let me add: the Pentz design is much more sophisticated. I don't think it would be a lot more expensive, but it will be more challenging to build.)It actually worked as well as the Oneida SDG I now have, at least in terms of separation. But my Oneida does move more air, hence capturing more dust. But that's the key to good DC, it doesn't matter what moves the air (single stage versus cyclone) as long as you move lots of it. That's why Pentz stresses the 1000 CFM number so much. But besides the DC that also requires ductworkj that supports that much movement, and the ducting can be very expensive. As for the respirator, the DC you've selected is a good one, but you may not be collecting all the very finest dust. You can judge after you get it in operation.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks Woodnthings, but my understanding is that shop vac can not collect fine dust right?



woodnthings said:


> The closer the DC or shop vac is to the source, the better it will work. Mine are on the mobile bases they came with, the Jet 1000, 1 1/2 HP units and when there is a smaller 2 1/2" port I hook up the shop vacs, Rigid 16 gal.
> 
> This gets most of the dust, but I still have an overhead Jet AFS 1000 air filtration unit as well. Even with all that there is still some fine dust in the air. If I were to work all day long on a project, I would wear a mask and run the air filter continuously.
> 
> ...


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

wangjue said:


> Thanks Fred, this is first time I heard about Oneida, seems a little bit higher quality than clear vue, but clear vue has a little bigger moto. what do you think about these 2 cyclones? Wife kind of give unlimited budget for healthy equipment.



I have mixed feelings about the Oneida (mine's a Super Dust Gorilla). True enough, it's built like a tank (and USA to those who care) but the basic design, IMHO, is inferior to the CV. It has the wrong body dimensions, no squared sloped intake, no air ramp, and an improper neutral vane. All this means that while it will separate 99% or so of the debris, but that 1% is what gets to the filter; the very finest dust. This, in turn, means you may have to clean the filter quite a bit especially if you run a lot of fine dust generators like a drum sander. The CV, OTOH, has all the things that Pentz tested out for best separation and does get most of that last trace of finest dust. I would give up my Oneida in a heartbeat for a CV. That said, a lot of folks like their Oneida, I'm just not one of them. But these units move a lot of air, so with them you've stepped into having 6" ducting all the way to the tools...and I'm absolutely sure they will capture the maximum amount of dust. As for the importance of separation, you need ot be moving air to catch dust. If you have a filter that clogging, you are losing air movement. That's why you want it all separated and dropped into the dust bin. If you're lucky enough to live where you can vent the DC outside, separation isn't an issue...the dust gets blown into the wind. But mine is contained in the shop, and I put a gauge on it to show me the amount of dust buildup in the filter.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*no. not true*



wangjue said:


> Thanks Woodnthings, but my understanding is that shop vac can not collect fine dust right?


A shop vac is only as good as the filter. The cartridge filters are great and can be knocked clean in a hurry. The real issue is capacity or quantity. They will clog readily if not preceded by a separator or mini-cyclone. The larger shop vacs like the Rigid 16 gal also have a fairly good size filter, so when using a hand held sander you can go a long time before needing to knock out the dust. There are drywall filter bags that go over the filter or fit inside the container that work well with fine dust.

What ever way you chose is always a trade off, that's why we end up using all 3 types of collection, shop vac, dust collector and air filtration. Check out You Tubes hundreds of DIY mods on DCs, Thein collectors, and cyclones.... you will be amazed! Usually they have a budget in mind and are reasonable to construct or modify.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Fred Hargis said:


> I have mixed feelings about the Oneida (mine's a Super Dust Gorilla). True enough, it's built like a tank (and USA to those who care) but the basic design, IMHO, is inferior to the CV. It has the wrong body dimensions, no squared sloped intake, no air ramp, and an improper neutral vane. All this means that while it will separate 99% or so of the debris, but that 1% is what gets to the filter; the very finest dust. This, in turn, means you may have to clean the filter quite a bit especially if you run a lot of fine dust generators like a drum sander. The CV, OTOH, has all the things that Pentz tested out for best separation and does get most of that last trace of finest dust. I would give up my Oneida in a heartbeat for a CV. That said, a lot of folks like their Oneida, I'm just not one of them. But these units move a lot of air, so with them you've stepped into having 6" ducting all the way to the tools...and I'm absolutely sure they will capture the maximum amount of dust. As for the importance of separation, you need ot be moving air to catch dust. If you have a filter that clogging, you are losing air movement. That's why you want it all separated and dropped into the dust bin. If you're lucky enough to live where you can vent the DC outside, separation isn't an issue...the dust gets blown into the wind. But mine is contained in the shop, and I put a gauge on it to show me the amount of dust buildup in the filter.


Will cv overkill for me if I am only connect one machine at a time and move machine closer to cv with no ducting?


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## herrwood (Mar 23, 2014)

If you need personal protection try a air power mask 2 type below.
I just use a paper mask so can't comment on them. 


http://www.rockler.com/power-air-respirator

http://www.rockler.com/trend-air-circulating-airshield-pro


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

wangjue said:


> Will cv overkill for me if I am only connect one machine at a time and move machine closer to cv with no ducting?


It seems to me it would be.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Fred Hargis said:


> It seems to me it would be.


Now I'm thinking of jet dc 1200 with a jet air filter. The 1200 is a 2 micron filter, do you think I should replace it with a Wynn filter? Seems I need make some changes to make it fit.


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

Personally I would want 1 micron or better. The Wynn filters are top notch, but if you intend to replace the OEM would it be cheaper to start with a Jet 1200 that has a bag? (note: I didn't look up the Jet lineup, maybe that model doesn't come with a bag)


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This one is considerably cheaper*

A 1 micron filter also:
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC2000BCFS.html?prodpage=1DC


The Jet 1200 goes have the Vortex Cone separator which is pretty effective in getting the dust to settle out, so they say...
The 2 HP will require 220 volts, where as the Jet 1100 will run on 120 volts. The one thing I like about my Jet DC's is the remote ON/OFF option! I would get that on which ever model I decided upon.

Fred is right. Don't get a 2 micron filter, pay extra and then replace it. :no: Just get the 30 micron bag, pay less and replace it with a cannister from Wynn, IF that what makes the most sense.

A whole lot of choices for a 2 HP, 220 Volt DC here:
http://www.shopwiki.com/l/JET-710700BK-DC~1200%2C-2-HP-1~Phase-Dust-Collector-with-Bag-Filter


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Just ordered the jet dc 1200, $467 after 15% off! seems a pretty good deal.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> A 1 micron filter also: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC2000BCFS.html?prodpage=1DC The Jet 1200 goes have the Vortex Cone separator which is pretty effective in getting the dust to settle out, so they say... The 2 HP will require 220 volts, where as the Jet 1100 will run on 120 volts. The one thing I like about my Jet DC's is the remote ON/OFF option! I would get that on which ever model I decided upon. Fred is right. Don't get a 2 micron filter, pay extra and then replace it. :no: Just get the 30 micron bag, pay less and replace it with a cannister from Wynn, IF that what makes the most sense. A whole lot of choices for a 2 HP, 220 Volt DC here: http://www.shopwiki.com/l/JET-710700BK-DC~1200%2C-2-HP-1~Phase-Dust-Collector-with-Bag-Filter


Will the 1/2hp makes different? I hope it will, that's why I pick this one, because anyway I need add new power to my garage.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*not that much difference*



wangjue said:


> Will the 1/2hp makes different? I hope it will, that's why I pick this one, because anyway I need add new power to my garage.



Read the specs for air flow and static pressure:
The 1 1/2 HP
http://www.burnstools.com/product/J...t/DC_1100VX_BK_Jet_Vortex_Dust_Collector.html

the 2 HP:
http://www.burnstools.com/product/J...ent/DC_1200VX_BK1_Jet_Dust_Collector_2HP.html

Not that much difference in the air flow, about 100 CFM. I have the 1 1/2HP units and they work fine. I love the remote on/off feature.
I move mine around to each machine with a quick coupler to make it fast and easy, it just takes a few seconds. I use a very short flex hose to maximize air flow, since the ribbed hose is not all that efficient. :no:
Just my opinion.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

woodnthings said:


> Read the specs for air flow and static pressure:
> The 1 1/2 HP
> http://www.burnstools.com/product/J...t/DC_1100VX_BK_Jet_Vortex_Dust_Collector.html
> 
> ...


The 1200 is louder . 80-85db. 
and here is other list of difference:

Static Pressure 11½ inch of water vs 10½
Impeller Diameter 12 " vs 11"

don't know what does it mean though.


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

You will do fine with that unit. Don't choke it down (small hose/dust) and you should get good air flow.


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## wangjue (Sep 7, 2010)

Fred Hargis said:


> You will do fine with that unit. Don't choke it down (small hose/dust) and you should get good air flow.


should I use 6 inch hose and a coverter down to 4 inch when connect to my saw or just 4 inch hose is fine?


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## Fred Hargis (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, with 4" the most air you can move is somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 (+/-) CFM, with 6" you'll be able to move as much as 1000 CFM. A small increase in diameter makes a huge difference in flow. I would go 6" ll the way, and change the tool ports to 6", but that's just me. If you use flex, and go 6" to the tools and then down to 4", you will probably move more air than just using the 4" all the way. Flex hose is death to air flow, but 6" is less of a drag than 4".


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## jacko9 (Dec 29, 2012)

I have the Oneida V-3000 system with 6" duct work reduced to 5" at the drops to my machines. I fill up the 35 gallon chip bucket on a regular basis and the fine filter stays pretty clean.

For sanders, I sold my Bosch and got the Festool with the Festool dust extractor which I also use with other Festool power tools and as a all around shop vac. I installed the Oneida Dust Deputy on the Festool Dust Extractor and the fine filter bag stays clean and the HEPA filter is totally clean.

I tried to use a dust mask when I first got started but the sweat clogged my glasses and it was just uncomfortable to wear.

Some woods are more dust prone than others for example, black walnut going through the planer will produce chips but also a cloud of fine dust.

My Oneida V-3000 picks up the chips and the fine dust with the exception of fine dust coming off the table saw blade. I am in the process of putting together an overhead dust port based on the Penn State hood.

Jack


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## secretgarden (Jan 30, 2014)

I have a Jet 1200 and added on a better filter ($177), a $5 wok from Walmart to create a home built vortex (wynn environmental web site ), Super Dust Deputy on a 35 gal drum, and enlarged all my tools to 6 inch duct from Home Depot HVAC ductwork section at a cost of $20/machine. I am getting measurements of greater than 900 cfm. It works. You can save some $ by getting used Jet 1200's on Craigs List. Good luck.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

When I got into woodworking 41 years ago dust collection was pretty much unheard of. I've been working in that dusty enviroment professionally all these years with no ill effect. A number of years ago I started wearing a paint respirator when the dust was especially thick in the air or sanding MDF though. Today I bought my first dust collector, not to keep the air clean but to keep chips off the floor. Also I have a unisaw made to use with a dust collector and I'm tired of climbing under the saw and scoop dust out the side. The dust collector I bought was the Harbor Freight 2hp. Time will tell if it works for me or not.


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