# Kitchen updates



## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

As some of you may know, we've slowly been updating this house since we moved in 7 years ago. Last spring/summer a bathroom leak pushed our schedule up for the kitchen and now it's time for the cabinets. 

Because it takes me forever to do any kind of project we decided it was better to buy the cabinets than for me to try and custom build them. As much as I wanted to build them, it's just not realistic. 

We did some searching at the local cabinetmakers and the big box stores and finally settled on an online option that gave us reasonable quality build (all ply construction) at an acceptable price and with the options we wanted. By my calculations, we're moving from ~57 cubic feet of cabinets to ~110 cubic feet so it's a drastic difference. 

The manufacturer is "Distinctive Kitchens and Bath" and they have maybe a dozen different cabinet options. The cabinets are produced in China or Italy, depending upon which style, and then delivered "ready to assemble" for most of the options. They worked for us and, though their website leaves a lot to be desired, we went ahead and put an order in a couple weeks ago. Delivery about a week later and I assembled the cabinets this weekend. A few issues of quality control that we're working on getting sorted out but overall we're happy with the look and general quality of the cabinets. 

This weekend we'll start demo'ing the existing cabinets and begin installation after some electrical and dry wall modifications.

For now, here are some pics of the original kitchen and the plans for the changes. 

Any advice for installation or comments on "lessons learned" are certainly appreciated.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Looks like a plan!


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## Kenbo (Sep 16, 2008)

Mrs Kenbo and I are discussing the fact that we need to update our kitchen so the timing of this thread is perfect Frank. Post a ton a pics. I'm looking forward to seeing how yours comes out.
:thumbsup:


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Well some of it's been on-going for 5 years or so. I knocked out most of the wall visible in the first picture so the opening is now 5 1/2 feet wide. I also already knocked out half the wall on the opposite side (in the left of the second picture) so it's the opening with the stove on the right and a half wall on the left. It really opened up the room a lot. I have also already done the floors with a vinyl/ceramic hybrid self-stick tiling. Again, it makes a huge difference from the old linoleum sheet. I'll see if I can get some pictures up soon... they're on another hard drive. In the meantime, here's a picture of what the new cabinets look like. You can also see a bit of the new tiling on the floor. This is the base 3 drawer cabinet that will be installed next to the refrigerator.


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## Travico (Dec 25, 2012)

I am glad I have found someone like me! I am 8 years into a 10 year flip and still got many years to go!! My wife wonders why it takes so long, but she keeps adding to the list. I also have a day job!! Well, any work on a project, no matter how long it takes, is a PLUS!!!!!!!


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

A couple more pics of the "before". Tomorrow the real work begins. I may get one cabinet hung tonight, over the fridge, but we'll see. Tomorrow I start taking out the old cabinets, ripping out the walls, and redoing the electrical that I need to move.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

And the opposite wall...


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Cabinets are beautiful...are you sure you didn't make them? One suggestion for now. Think about the electrical box locations as per your new layout.








 





 
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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

cabinetman said:


> Cabinets are beautiful...are you sure you didn't make them? One suggestion for now. Think about the electrical box locations as per your new layout.


Yeah, I will be moving two light switches, two outlets (one for the stove), and one phone jack tomorrow. Should be fairly quick work. The rest of the outlets and switches are already at the correct heights to fit under the new cabinets.

I picked up some new drywall a couple of "post construction" gang boxes and some truss head screws for hanging cabinets today. Like I said, the real work starts tomorrow and will hopefully be finished by the end of Monday.


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

Those are great looking cabinets. I am in the process of doing a whole house redo as well. We built the cabinets on site, but I now think I would have been better off buying them pre-built. It certainly would have been faster..... and cheaper..... and fewer headaches. Great looking job. I thought of posting a thread but I didn't think there would be much interest.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Isn't demo fun!


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Sorrowful Jones said:


> Those are great looking cabinets. I am in the process of doing a whole house redo as well. We built the cabinets on site, but I now think I would have been better off buying them pre-built. It certainly would have been faster..... and cheaper..... and fewer headaches. Great looking job. I thought of posting a thread but I didn't think there would be much interest.


I don't know about cheaper than if I had built them myself, but we were pretty happy with the budget. I'll put an itemized list of the cabinets we got and the final price. As I said, we had a couple of issues during shipping but we're, overall, quite happy with how they've been dealt with and the general quality of the product.

More pictures to come, I promise. And, Jones, never think there won't be interest in a project... especially if there are pictures. There is always interest around here in what others are doing and how.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

frankp said:


> And, Jones, never think there won't be interest in a project... especially if there are pictures. There is always interest around here in what others are doing and how.


You got that right!


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

Frank,
Have fun while you tear it up, LOML and i finished our masterbath and masterbedroom and a few months later completely gutted our tv room. the tv room was what i would call a major overhaul !!!!! my point is when you are finished you know all the work you put into it was more than worth it. i really like the way you are opening up the walls.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your pics, Frank. we are going to redo our kitchen this year also. I think I have more cabinets to replace than in your kitchen.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

Kitchens are tough but it will make a huge difference..... Nice looking cabinets.


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

Don't let my wife see how clean your demo is going
I always have white dusty powder everywhere


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Fester, those are the "after demo" pics... once the room was reasonably clean again. I did a lot of demo today on the main wall, got all the cabinets and counter removed, moved rewired the screwed up wiring, and added some insulation. Tomorrow some quick plumbing to move our sink sources and then drywall goes up again followed by installing the cabinets. Should be a long and productive day. Pics once I have them uploaded...


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## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm enjoying following your thread on a kitchen remodel. Your own is always the toughest.
I did ours a few years ago and was worse than pulling teeth.
We were remodeling our house from one end to another. When I got to the kitchen the floor came out ti the joists to rebuild to support a marble floor. Ovens, cooktop and refrigerator were all moved for the new plan. Ceiling came out for a new skylight welled to 10'x10' at the work area. 
I was totally finished when I was asking my wife to go with me to pick out appliances so I could design custom cabinets around the appliances.
Her response, let's turn the kitchen into a guest room so it will get more use. Cooking is not one of her strengths.
She finally did go with me as a kitchen does help the value of a house.
We lived with an old refrigerator, micro wave oven on a work table and a sink mounted to the old counter top supported by two saw horses for a year. Didn't bother her one bit.
Hope yours go smoother than mine did.


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## Priusjames (Jan 13, 2014)

unclefester said:


> don't let my wife see how clean your demo is going
> i always have white dusty powder everywhere


lol!


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

unclefester said:


> Don't let my wife see how clean your demo is going
> I always have white dusty powder everywhere


That's one thing my wife does well. She keeps the work area clean when we are working on a project in the house.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

unclefester said:


> I'm enjoying following your thread on a kitchen remodel. Your own is always the toughest.
> I did ours a few years ago and was worse than pulling teeth.
> We were remodeling our house from one end to another. When I got to the kitchen the floor came out ti the joists to rebuild to support a marble floor. Ovens, cooktop and refrigerator were all moved for the new plan. Ceiling came out for a new skylight welled to 10'x10' at the work area.
> I was totally finished when I was asking my wife to go with me to pick out appliances so I could design custom cabinets around the appliances.
> ...


sounds sorta like our kitchen remodel-we planned it for summer and barbecued a lot. Kathie is a cook though and designed her own kitchen. We wanted to streamline the process and buy the cabinets but nobody wanted to make them 2" shorter then standard-she is 5' and not getting any taller so I build them. It was crazy but fun.

It is more fun watching Frank though- and a lot less work.


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## Mark G (Dec 26, 2011)

frankp said:


> Tomorrow some quick plumbing...


Frank, what is quick plumbing? I am unfamiliar with that concept.

I think you are going to love the spice rack. Sure, it would be better at eye level, but still it is a great use of that six inches down there by the stove in my opinion. And the lazy suzans in cabinet 4 will hold a lot of crap. Great space savers. You might think about putting some stand alone lazy suzans on the shelves in cabinet 9, too. My wife picked up several at Bed, Bath and Beyond or some such place. No more reaching high and way back and knocking things over.

Thanks for sharing. This is fun to watch.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

Mark G said:


> Frank, what is quick plumbing? I am unfamiliar with that concept.
> 
> I think you are going to love the spice rack. Sure, it would be better at eye level, but still it is a great use of that six inches down there by the stove in my opinion. And the lazy suzans in cabinet 4 will hold a lot of crap. Great space savers. You might think about putting some stand alone lazy suzans on the shelves in cabinet 9, too. My wife picked up several at Bed, Bath and Beyond or some such place. No more reaching high and way back and knocking things over.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. This is fun to watch.



Quick plumbing for me is when I only have 3 trips to the hardware store. The 4th trip is when the real cussing begins.....................


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

mike1950 said:


> Quick plumbing for me is when I only have 3 trips to the hardware store. The 4th trip is when the real cussing begins.....................


It's easy to build your plumbing parts inventory when you don't return the parts from the previous trips. You should see what I've got saved up.:laughing:








 







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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Mark G said:


> Frank, what is quick plumbing? I am unfamiliar with that concept.


Quick plumbing is DIY. A little DIY entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=96Tj5q_e2cI









 








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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

cabinetman said:


> It's easy to build your plumbing parts inventory when you don't return the parts from the previous trips. You should see what I've got saved up.:laughing: .


Me too!!!!


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## Mark G (Dec 26, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> Quick plumbing is DIY. A little DIY entertainment.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=96Tj5q_e2cI
> 
> ...


Now that wa worthwhile. Great ending.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

As promised, some progress pictures.

First a clean kitchen in prep for demo (and hopefully unload the old cabinets and counter on Craigslist or free cycle) then a few pics as the removal went along.

Then down to the studs and with the new dry wall up.

Moved the exhaust vent, rewired the stove to make flush with the wall, rewired the hood outlet to make flush with the wall, rewired the dishwasher line to move to opposite side of sink, rewired the outlets to put better quality and more appropriate gang boxes in place. Tomorrow or Monday I'll also add a GFCI outlet to the black box where the disposal and dishwasher power are housed since our hot water dispenser has a 3 prong plug already.

Not visible in the pictures are the outlet and switch on the right hand wall that also got moved.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Dishwasher and stove in place (dishwasher not wired in yet).

Installing first base cabinet... the big corner so we can work out from there.

Right hand side base cabinets installed, with sink base lined up getting ready for cutouts tomorrow.


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Looking good!


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

It's a little late now, but if you get delayed until late June or early July, I might be able to give you a hand. I'm arranging a trip to see one of my Army buddies from my group. He lives in Reston, Va., if that's close to you.








 








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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

c'man, Reston is about 10 minutes from us, if that. I'm hoping to be finished in the next couple of weeks but I appreciate the offer. I'm sure I'll have plenty of other projects if you really feel the need to help me with something. 

Either way, you should let me know when you'll be around. Perhaps we can meet for a drink at the local microbrew and convince Mark G to show up too.


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## TS3660 (Mar 4, 2008)

Frank,
I have done 4 kitchens and see a problem with your fridge. I strongly suggest you hinge it on the wall side so it is easier to use. But, once you do that, you will need to shorten that wall so the door opens past 90 degrees. The way you have the fridge in your drawing, you will have 2 problems. 1. you will get crammed against the wall while trying to access things in it. 2. It will be incovienient becaue the access is on the opposite side of the door to the rest of the kitchen.

The other thing you could do is swap the fridge and the cabinet next to it. But, IMO, the way you have it now is going to frustrate you every time you use it.


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## TS3660 (Mar 4, 2008)

I always installed the upper cabinets first, 54" up. And make sure you find the high point of your floor and make all cabinets that level.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Bud, thanks for the suggestions. We haven't decided whether we're keeping the wall next to the fridge or not. For now, it's there but my wife is thinking she wants to remove it. The space for the fridge is wider than our current fridge so it won't be a major issue, at least for now. If/when we get a 36" wide fridge, we'll definitely have problems accessing any of the lower drawers on the door side.

We couldn't swap the fridge and cabinets (the way it was laid out before) because the previous owner installed recessed lighting over the fridge area, so we couldn't put a cabinet over the fridge if we left it there. Didn't realize that until I'd already closed in the ceiling again and decided we didn't want to rip it all back out.

As for base versus wall, I made a choice, primarily because I need to have the base cabinets installed in order to get the counter cut and installed. I figured I can install the wall cabinets at whatever pace I have/need to at that point, rather than trying to rush it all and making mistakes. In a perfect world, my wife and I would both have preferred to do the wall cabinets first.


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## Civilian (Jul 6, 2013)

TS3660 said:


> Frank,........The other thing you could do is swap the fridge and the cabinet next to it. But, IMO, the way you have it now is going to frustrate you every time you use it.


Frank already replied he had a light issue with swapping the refrig and the cabinets. Buy if he were to switch the refrig and the cabinets, he would have to switch the pivot point of the refrig doors. Most can be switched from a right hand hinge to a left hand hinge. Might take a while to reteach the mind to reach for the correct side though.

Jon
Northern Michigan


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## wood shavings (Mar 20, 2009)

Frank you have a nice build going but I have a question for you about your drywall, maybe I am missing something but aren't you going to tape behind your cabinets and appliances and counters. Will be very hard to get a smooth contour if you start at cabinet to counter.
Jerry


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

wood shavings, yes, I taped behind the cabinets though it isn't visible in these pictures. There are really only the corners that needed to be taped, and the small sections I removed to put some blocks in for screwing the cabinets to so there isn't much tape. I considered not doing it since the entire wall will be covered by cabinets and backsplash, which will have its own backing massik but figured the tape will also help with any air leakage to/from the outside and decided to go ahead and do it.

Took a break the last couple days due to house guests and awaiting one base unit that didn't come in our original shipment but I'll be back at it tonight, installing some wall cabinets.


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

It is looking good. I think you will be pleasantly surprised as to how much you will benefit from moving the stove away from the wall (on the left side in the pic). I never liked having a stove directly adjacent to a wall. To me, it just feels too confining when using the top burners.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Oh, make no mistake, sorrowful, I won't be surprised at all. I asked my wife when we bought the house if I could knock down the wall and put a counter on the left side of that stove. I finally got my way. 

Unfortunately, life and some LDS missionaries interrupted my work last night so I didn't get much accomplished. Maybe tonight...


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Aaaaand finally made some progress. My wife, friends, and the missionaries all left me alone and I took half a day Friday and about half a day Saturday to get some work done. I got all the cabinets installed. The counter guy is coming tomorrow to measure and then we'll have counters by Friday. After that it's some finish work, some pulls, and a face on the spice rack and my kitchen woes will be complete, for a few days anyway. Still need to have the window replaced with a garden window in the nearish future. We just couldn't swing the timing to get it all done simultaneously, so I'll be leaving the trim off the window until that time.

Whoever recommended using a car jack to hold up the cabinets is a friggin' genius, too. That was awesome!

Pics to prove it all happened.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

The last few pics...


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you should be proud frank!*

Lots of nice work there. Don't forget the counter tops.... :laughing:


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## Mark G (Dec 26, 2011)

Frank, that looks great!


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## guglipm63 (Feb 27, 2013)

Looks great frank.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Looks good so far. I noticed you using a floor jack. I've done that for years, it works great. Can't tell if you have the board on the saddle secured in some way. I had my board about 6"-8" wide and maybe 12" long. The saddle on my jack was just kept on with a small hitch pin, so, I removed the saddle, and put a tee nut in the board and ran a ¼-20 bolt up through into it. I did that after the board slipped off once. I also use some dead men (just plywood boxes) of different heights to keep the jacking height to a minimum.

Are you installing crown? From your measurements, are you attaching to the face of the cabinets?








 








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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

c-man, I just used the jack to hold the cabinets steady after I had them hung on the ledger boards. That way I could steady the cabinet and line it up with one hand and drill with the other. I didn't bother securing the board to the jack, just rested it on top.

The crown will be attached to a face that is installed above the cabinets and will just barely touch the ceiling. I'll be gluing the face to the top and back of the face frames before putting up the crown. My wife is a structural engineer and we often have "discussions" about the way I choose to do things versus the way she thinks they should be done so I didn't get it all glued before installation. Now we have an agreed upon plan and, luckily, I have enough clamps and enough space to do it after the fact.


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

Looking really good! Are you going to have under-cabinet lighting? Make sure you stub it out before you do the backspash. On my project I forgot to add the circuit so I and had to go back, cut the sheetrock, and stub it out.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

frankp said:


> The crown will be attached to a face that is installed above the cabinets and will just barely touch the ceiling.


A little tip for the next time. One way I've done that is to make a ¾" plywood plate that follows the exterior line of the top of the cabinet (where crown goes), before installing the cabinets. Cut and install the crown and attach to the front edge of the plywood. Since cabinet delivery can damage installed crown, and installing crown after the cabinets are up is time consuming, I just install the cabinets, slide the plywood onto the tops, and put a couple of screws through the top of the cabinet. 

But, since you've already installed the cabinets, your crown installation will be what it is. Just a note, that IMO, the bottom edge of the crown should line up with the face of the door. To get it out to there, you may have to stain/finish the underside of that face.








 








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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

C'man, I was planning to do as you suggest, at least with the backer for the crown, but my wife had different ideas about how to back them. We're just going to have to make do with it now. I appreciate the advice, though.


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

And we finally got our counters installed Saturday, 8 days later than expected. I did a little plumbing and a little more rewiring (extended the wiring for the garbage disposal a bit more) and all is functional again. Woohoo, no more take out food for a while! Pics with the new counters installed and some of the crown backers sitting up there as well. Need to put some triangle braces on the crown backers just for some nail support and get them secured. Hopefully I'll get the crown up in the next couple of days and the toe kicks installed. Trying to get the backsplash installed this week as well, but we haven't decided on the design just yet so that may be wishful thinking.


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## Mark G (Dec 26, 2011)

Very nice. The granite looks like ours. What is it called? Inca Gold, or something like that?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I gotta say Frank, the cabinets look great and from the looks of the install all went fine. You got a good fit to the walls. The hardware looks good too. 

It may be just my monitor, but the spacing on either side of the window looks a bit different. I see what you mean, that there is hardly any FF showing above the doors. The crown should look great with the spacing oriented that way. So, you will be tacking the crown on from the front? Are you planning for a valence of sorts above the sink?








 








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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

Quite a change- NICE kitchen


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

Mark, the granite is "Colonial Gold". We think it ended up matching the floor quite nicely while also having some good red/brown colors to match the cabinets. 

C'man, there are really only 2 wall cabinets and one base cabinet that didn't flush up really well to the walls. I was actually quite surprised but happily so. I will be nailing the crown on from the front. No valence around the window, though, as that's about to be changed out for a garden window and we think a valence would detract from it. My wife isn't too fond of valences anyway. Your eye is good though, there's about an inch difference in the spacing around the window to the cabinets from one side to the other. Just no way around that, unfortunately. The cabinet on the right side is also about an 1/8" out of plumb so we're going to try and hide everything with the trim work. Most of the hardware worked out well but my template did shift on a couple so we have some of the handles out of plumb as well. I don't like it but there's nothing I can do to fix it now...

Thanks, Mike. We expected dramatic results and our expectations were met. My wife just commented that it's like she's moved into a new house and doesn't know where anything is.


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## MT Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Your makeover looks really nice.


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## mike1950 (Aug 29, 2010)

frankp said:


> Mark, the granite is "Colonial Gold". We think it ended up matching the floor quite nicely while also having some good red/brown colors to match the cabinets.
> 
> C'man, there are really only 2 wall cabinets and one base cabinet that didn't flush up really well to the walls. I was actually quite surprised but happily so. I will be nailing the crown on from the front. No valence around the window, though, as that's about to be changed out for a garden window and we think a valence would detract from it. My wife isn't too fond of valences anyway. Your eye is good though, there's about an inch difference in the spacing around the window to the cabinets from one side to the other. Just no way around that, unfortunately. The cabinet on the right side is also about an 1/8" out of plumb so we're going to try and hide everything with the trim work. Most of the hardware worked out well but my template did shift on a couple so we have some of the handles out of plumb as well. I don't like it but there's nothing I can do to fix it now...
> 
> Thanks, Mike. We expected dramatic results and our expectations were met. My wife just commented that it's like she's moved into a new house and doesn't know where anything is.



We re did our kitchen in '07 Still looks new and I still am clueless as to how to operate oven.:blink:


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

Great job!! Really looks good


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

So, no real updates but I did get some quotes on the new windows and the wife decided she changed her mind about the garden window. As such, we're likely to just get a new double-hung there and I'll take the opportunity to build it in a little to get even spacing between the cabinets. I'm awaiting one more piece of crown molding and then I'll finish putting that up. Got a start now but no pics yet. We've also moved one step closer to backsplash but that won't take but a few hours to install, once we decide on the right tiling.

In non-kitchen news, I have essentially finished the back patio (thread here: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f15/another-non-woodworking-project-57125/ ) I had to let it sit with about 4 feet by 16 feet unfinished once we started getting the freezing weather. Now I just have a half dozen bricks to cut to the right size (once it stops raining this week) and it's a complete project. Nice to have one that I can say that about.


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## Chaincarver Steve (Jul 30, 2011)

Nice new look! The counter tops looks great. I like the darker cabinetry a lot more than the old ones. And great job expanding the floor plan. It all came out really well. :thumbsup:


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## Carvel Loafer (Dec 31, 2011)

Looking absolutely lovely... I those cabinets a lot. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## frankp (Oct 29, 2007)

No more pictures as I'm still awaiting the last piece of crown molding but I mentioned I'd throw out the whole list and our final price for the cabinets so, here it is:

Base Cabinets:
12" w/ drawer and shelf
6" spice rack pull out
33" w/2 drawers and shelf (used as sink base since they don't sell separate sink bases)
36" corner base with stainless steel wire lazy susan (2 level)
18" 3 drawer base
30" 3 drawer base

Wall cabinets:
12" x 12" x 36" (x2)
12" x 30" x 18" (over stove)
12" x 24" x 36"
24" X 36"corner with 2 shelves (plus additional mullion doors)
12" x 30" x 36" (x2) (plus one set of mullion doors)
24" x 36" x 18" (over fridge)

3 decorative end panels for wall cabinets
3 decorative end panels for base cabinets
3 8' pieces of scribe molding
4 8' pieces of crown molding
2 8' pieces of toe kick
6" blank
3" blank 
dishwasher panel

total price: $3864 + delivery

Comparable cabinets from big box stores: $6500-$7400
Comparable cabinets from custom manufacturer: ~$8500+
Comparable cabinets from other online vendors: ~$4000-$5000

Assembly and installation: ~12 hours


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