# best way to cut these logs off?



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

Hello-

I've been lurking & learning here for a bit, & have a question I hope you all can help with.

My Dad had a small tornado go BETWEEN his house & barn, & it took down a few trees. We've got them all cut up except a walnut & a cherry which went down together. We've topped the walnut down to the logs. The problem is that the stump "disc" of the 2 trees is holding the trunk up off the ground (cantilevered). We're afraid that if we try to cut the logs off with it up like that, they'll split. We already had the crotch above the logs split when we cut it off.

Is it as simple as putting blocks under the free end? Or do we need to cut the cherry back to the stump & hope the walnut stands back up so we can "re-fell" it? If we just need an under-cut, how deep to go in before we start to cut down?

I know how you guys like pictures, so I'll try......

Thanks for any help you can provide, & there's no hurry - there's snow midway up the walnut's diameter right now......

Thanks again, & great forum-

Randy


----------



## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

It looks like you are close to it standing back up already. You have to be careful but you might cut the walnut back to the branch that is sticking out and it would stand back up. If you try to cut it at the stump it will most likely split, not a big deal if you are cutting firewood but it is if you want to save that log. Watch out for that cherry that it does not pop up when the walnut comes up. If you can find a tractor with a front end loader on it you might be able to lift it up now.


----------



## jeffreythree (Jan 9, 2008)

If the snow is up to the walnut then the cherry must be under the snow. You sure don't want that kind of hidden object to suddenly reappear under your feet while you are cutting. Sounds like you will be waiting for the spring thaw? Cutting the cherry could change the weight distribution on that rootball, too. It could settle back in with the weight removed, but will it spin or twist? I think a tractor and loader to set it upright is your best hope for a safe removal.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I wouldn't do it in the snow with such limited visibility. Once the snow melts enough where you can see what's going on - *I* would approach it this way. Not that I'm suggesting you do it because because although the picture helps, not being able to look at it up close and personal there's no way I can make a safe game plan. But if the tension in the trees is such as I understand from your description and the pictures, *and* if I did not have machinery available I would use a plunge cut to keep the tree from splitting and this seems to be your second most important concern (behind safety). 

If you are afraid the root ball of the walnut is going to stand up once the weight of the tree is removed (or if it splits and drags the whole mess toward you), and you are also afraid the cherry tree is going to stand up once that happens then the first cut should be to remove the tension from the cherry as shown. I wouldn't cut clear through the cherry just enough to remove all or most of the tension. 

Yes you should block the top up to take as much tension out of the trunk end next to the root ball as possible. The majority of the tension is right there at the root ball where you want to buck it. Your 2nd and 3rd cuts should not be very deep especially the top relief cut or it could split with just that cut if it's too deep. Your 4th cut, the plunge cut, should be started in the very center of the tree with the smallest (as in shortest from top to bottom) bar you have. Then work the saw up and down as though it were pinned to the middle of the inside of the tree. 

It won't take very much for the tension to tear itself apart right there at the plunge cut and it isn't going to be clean because the tree is so small, but done properly it should preserve most of the heart for you. I am only assuming you want to mill this log?

You want to be standing on the side opposite of the cherry when you make your cuts in the walnut, and you also want to have something parked on that same side of the root ball in case when the tree separates and the root ball decide to roll your way, it doesn't drag the still-attached tree on top of you. 

The most important thing to remember is that if at any point you are feeling like "this is too dangerous" then stop. If I were there to look at it, I might say that my advice is not the right way at all, so unless you are sure about any method you choose, don't do it and get someone more experienced to do it, or someone with machinery. Just remember that many a logger have gotten hurt and killed by over-estimated the ability of machinery. In my early years using a skid steer, I have had that 6500 pounds tossed like a toy . . . . with me in it. :yes:












.


----------



## Cuthbert (Dec 8, 2010)

curving is better than straight cut . . . !!!
even in hair styles . . . lolz


----------



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

Good stuff, all - we appreciate the help.

Yes, it'll probably be spring now before we can get back in there, even to just get to them.

I had hoped that the pic's showed it better, but now that I look at them more it doesn't - the root "ball" is actually a [relatively] thin "saucer" of clay & rocks, probably 12 - 16 feet in dia., & 3 - 4 ft. thick. One thing that has occurred to me is whether that mass has gone past vertical.... Is it possible that the root structures of the 2 trees are grown together enough that it is actually the cherry being on the ground that is holding the walnut up in the air? As I have it in my head now, with you guys' input, there are 2 options to determine our course of action:

-lift on the walnut experimentally with the tractor bucket to see if it is close enough to the balance point to stand back up

-cut more of the cherry back to see if the walnut wants to lift (the cherry's weight was holding the whole assembly from going back vertical) or settle (the root disc is past vertical & the weight of the walnut is being suported by the cherry)

Dad & I are both eternal pessimists, so we both function on "worst case scenario". He also worked for the rural electric co-op for 30 years, so he's seen & worked in some pretty hairy situations. We have assumed all along that the thing wanted to stand back up - the most dangerous outcome. Another question - if the thing does go vertical, what is all that springing & waving about going to do to the wood itself?

The cherry is firewood (other than a possible crotch or 2), so we can cut it back in small increments. We're looking forward to the possibility of having some walnut lumber, but there are still a lot of things up in the air (pun intended), so we'll just have to see what we find out as we go along, & if it ends up in the boiler too, so be it. I'd love to get the stumps out, too, & see what the root grain looks like, but that'll be a whole 'nother job....

Thanks so much for the help so far, & keep the ideas coming - we've got all winter for virtual conjecture before we actually tackle this beast.

Randy


----------



## bama20a (May 3, 2010)

That root ball IS NOT going to stand back up.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

bama20a said:


> That root ball IS NOT going to stand back up.


I wonder what's keeping the top from laying down then, an invisible skyhook? Making a statement like that based on a picture without explaining why it won't stand back up tells me you've never had one do it. I have and I assure you there's more stored energy in that thing that you can imagine. A big one will shake the ground when it lands. 





.


----------



## bama20a (May 3, 2010)

I've looked & havn't seen a skyhook, But the weight of that walnut,Looks to be around 16-18' is not enough to hold it up.I'm just saying that from the years I've been in the woods & cutting trees,I have been doing it for a lot of years.Mark


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

It's been my experience in the woods (and other places too I guess) that just about anything _can_ happen. To say with certainty something will _not_ happen in a potentially dangerous situation is most often what gets guys hurt. I would rather err on the side of caution. Looks like to me that rootball is going back in the hole with a big thud once the tree is cut loose...I may be wrong, but I would approach it that way none the less. 








.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

One of the things I've learned over my years in the woods is that one should expect the unpredictable, and that's when I am right there to assess the situation. I wouldn't dare make an absolute statement based on just a picture. 



bama20a said:


> But the weight of that walnut,Looks to be around 16-18' is not enough to hold it up . . . .


I guess you mean the tree does not have enough weight to hold the root ball down? If that's what you mean, you must not realize how many other variables are involved which no one could possibly assess from a picture. It's hard enough sometimes in person. 

I guess we'll just have to have differing opinions, but that's what discussion is all about. 




.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

hidn45 said:


> Another question - if the thing does go vertical, what is all that springing & waving about going to do to the wood itself?


Yes there could be some "shake". I get storm downed trees here to mill, or worse yet bulldozed. It some times seperates the growth rings, some times so bad the lumber is worthless. There is that possibility.





.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Daren said:


> . . . just about anything _can_ happen.





TexasTimbers said:


> . . . one should expect the unpredictable . . . .


Didn't know you were even online yet, but I had retyped my answer about 3 times before I finally decided it wasn't too rough around the edges. I'm growing! :laughing:








.


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

TexasTimbers said:


> I'm growing!


:thumbup:



.


----------



## bama20a (May 3, 2010)

One of the things I've learned over my years in the woods is that one should expect the unpredictable,
Yep, you & an Daren are both right, Both of your post's has reminded me of the ol' saying famous last words"Hey watch this S***,"
Thanks for reminding me fellows, & keep up the good work,,,,


----------



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

I realized I had intended to but had not, in fact, described the trunk dimensions. We're looking at 2 - 8ft logs to the first limb there & another above it (we hope). It's about 16" dia at the small end of the top log, but there's some swell there from the crotch above it. About 24 - 26" at the butt of the bottom log, depending on who's measuring.
Daren - I've seen "wind shake" in maple & especially ash. Don't know if walnut is soft enough to absorb something like that or not. If that sucker does stand up, that'll be a heck of a trauma to it, I would think.

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I'm not sure if there'll be anything good in the stumps or not. The center-to-center distance between the 2 stumps is about 4 - 5 ft, so I'm sure the 2 root systems are pretty well intertwined in there. My one theory is that that's what's holding the walnut trunk up. In you guys' experience with root balls, do 2 root systems _ever_ grow together well enough to get anything cool out of? I'm picturing a lot of inclusions & too many weak seams to get much of anything solid with 2 different trees together. And my perception is that one root ball is hard enough to deal with, let alone doing something with 2 together. What say you?

Just as an aside - these trees are down below where the old barn used to sit (before these trees even started life here), so there's all kinds of neat stuff around. An old plow, a kiddie car that was probably my dad's, old bottles, harness hardware, we even found a cradle scythe grown into an apple tree down the hill aways.

Thanks again, I'm really enjoying the discussion & the insight.

Randy


----------



## Daren (Oct 14, 2006)

hidn45 said:


> Daren - I've seen "wind shake" in maple & especially ash. Don't know if walnut is soft enough to absorb something like that or not.


I mill a lot of walnut, just because I love it/it sells well here...yes it can have shake. I posted a picture on the forum of one I cut open to show shake. I did a quick search, but was not able to find it. I will look again later and post it here if/when I do find it.

EDIT: Found the picture. I made one cut on this log, saw the shake and rolled it to the firewood hill. I had to sweep snow/ice off it to take the picture. It looked a lot worse when all the cracks were not filled with water/ice like in the pic.











.


----------



## TS3660 (Mar 4, 2008)

When I was about 20 years old, me, dad, and three brothers decided to log up a maple that had uprooted at camp in a storm. It was hanging on the root ball and about 30 feet long. At the end, the tree was about a foot off the ground. It was a huge maple, about 4' in diameter. We had some big saws to handle it. We decided to cut downward at each place we wanted to log it off but stop short. We did this all the way to the root ball. We then figured we'd go back and finish cut the logs off one at a time. If it stood up, no big deal. We'd cut the tree down and finish the job. My brother went back to the end and cut one log off. The tree moved up about 3 inches and stopped. So, I cut the next log off. Well, when that log fell off, that tree stood up like it was shot out of a slingshot. When it got to vertical, all the slits we had cut in the tree closed up and the tree went past vertical. Then it came forward and slung off the top three logs. Let me tell you we scattered like cockroaches when a light gets shined on them. Those 3 seconds were some of the scariest of my life. Those logs must have weighed 200 lbs. each and they were flying everywhere. Wow that was scary. Luckily nobody got hurt and we finished the job without incident.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

TS3660 said:


> Those logs must have weighed 200 lbs. each ... [\QUOTE]
> 
> 
> A 4' diameter maple log section that is 48" in diameter and only 12" in length weighs 770 pounds. A 36" x 12" long weighs 433 lbs. if y'all bucked one of the 48" sections 8' long that was a 6200 lb log!
> ...


----------



## TS3660 (Mar 4, 2008)

They were about 16" long. So, maybe 1000 lbs. WOW. Now I'm even more scared than I was back then.


----------



## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

Just for fun you could loosely fix something, like a pumpkin near the top end of the walnut. Then when you get ready to stand it back up you could see how far it flies. Oh, and make sure that you do not leave any cat food down in that root hole. You would not want anything tragic to happen, even though it would probably be quick and painless.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Mizer said:


> . . . Oh, and make sure that you do not leave any cat food down in that root hole . . .


I concur. I always leave filthy lucre (politician food) in the hole and until I get a rat in a suit and tie. :shifty:






.


----------



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

We definitely thought about the "catapult experiment", but, unfortunately, the house is right across the pond & in the line of fire.

As for the politicians - it's pretty swampy down there, they'd just dig down & come back up thru the muck someplace else.....


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

hidn45 said:


> As for the politicians - it's pretty swampy down there, they'd just dig down & come back up thru the muck someplace else.....


Your probationary period is over. 





.


----------



## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

hidn45 said:


> We definitely thought about the "catapult experiment", but, unfortunately, the house is right across the pond & in the line of fire.
> 
> As for the politicians - it's pretty swampy down there, they'd just dig down & come back up thru the muck someplace else.....


:laughing:


----------



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

Hey, thanks guys. I should show this thread to my kids - they don't think I'm funny....

Here's a pic of the "backside" of our project, from the house side of the pond. I pecked at it a bit with a pick-axe to see how bad the rocks were. It's mostly clay, which is surprising since the rest of the property is all gravel. Even as thin as that footprint is - that's a lotta dirt. It'll be a gamble to invest the time it's going to take to see if there's anything good in there.....


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Whoa daddy. I didn't know the ball was that hefty. If you were able to get that thing to stand upright again, and if it did so quickly it would launch it to the next county. If it was rolled away from the hole it made when it was pushed over then it's unlikely it'll roll up very much once the tree is bucked. But if it was pushed over and left to sit right there at the hole then it's almost certainly going to plop right back down into it, and will do so very fast. 







.


----------



## Mizer (Mar 11, 2010)

I see the concern that you have with the cherry tree now. From this view it does look like it is one root ball, it might all come up together or it might not come up after you cut the walnut. It is hard to say not being there just be careful and think it through real good.


----------



## slabmaster (Mar 30, 2008)

*rootball*

Your chances of it coming up will decrease if you let it freeze solid before taking the trees. I've done it many times without any movement. Be careful and take it slow by starting at the far-end to remove the weight slowly.


----------



## hidn45 (Nov 16, 2010)

I never thought about working it while it's frozen. Good idea - that would definitely add some stability. It's just a matter of timing whether the snow goes off before the rest thaws (or re-freezes in the spring).

The picture does look a bit deceptive. The "ball" is pretty big across, but it's pretty thin. The hole it came out of is only a foot or so deep at the center (not room for more than a couple politicians, but they'd hafta be pretty speedy to get all the way out in time ;^) ).

As if I didn't have enough to keep my brain working, my neighbor is having some timber cut off by an outfit that skids with horses. He was showing me some of his logs, & telling me how the guys were telling him how this one's not worth as much 'cuz it's got beetles (Ambrosia), & that one's shorter 'cuz they had to cut it below the crotch, & yadda yadda.... I was going to show him some of you guys' milled "junk" wood, but I didn't have the heart. I did discover that a friend of a friend has a portable bandmill that's just sitting behind his barn, so maybe we'll have him bring it out when the horse guys are gone & see if we can find anything in the "leftovers".....

randy

ps- I'll try & put up some shots of the horse loggers at work if anybody's interested.....


----------

