# New woodworker looking at a table saw. Advice?



## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

I have been on the lookout for my first decent table saw for quite sometime. A Delta Unisaw came up on craigslist that I am interested in. I live in rural northern MN so my options are kinda limited when it comes to Craigslist. He is asking $500.

Model: Delta 87-369

This one is about two hours away. 

http://stcloud.craigslist.org/tls/4073455075.html

It has a 5hp motor, 3480rpm and from the research I have done is 230/480V although it is a 3ph. I know I would need the converter. I am currently renting a house where there is no available 220V in the garage where I work. However I am planning on building my own home with a shop within the next couple years. I am 24 years old and want a saw that will last me my life time. Is this it or should I wait? I am a new woodworker :blush: and although this may sound ridiculous, is this too much saw for me?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I would pass. As a new woodworker that saw can get you in real trouble pretty quick. 5 hp will kick pretty hard. Also...a 3 phase machine is a fair amount more cost associated with a phase converter that will power 5hp. And lastly....storing the saw on end? I think the saws abused. 

Keep watching.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Have you actually called the guy and he verified it's a 5HP 3PH? The 3PH may be a typo. It looks like a standard 3HP, 220V...I could be wrong.





















.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

+1 with Ryan. Keep watching.

I would not purchase a tool which you will not be able to use until you purchase a house. That may be a couple of years, or stuff happens and your purchase is delayed. I hope not, but if things happened, this is not an easy saw to sell.

I would look out for a hybrid like the Craftsman 22124 or one of the Rigid, or even a job site size saw and build a mobile table around it. At least you would be able to use a 120V tool in the meantime, and likely be able to sell it when you have 240V power and can upgrade.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

pass


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

It looks like a lot of saw for $500, but the converter and need for 220v are quite a burden for a first saw. Might be easier to sell the 3 phase motor and replace it.

*This saw* is priced a bit high, but if they'd take less, for ~$250 you'd have a good full size belt drive starter saw with an upgraded fence that'll run on a standard 120v circuit. 

*This one* is also ~ $100 overpriced IMO, but it's another solid option for a good saw to get your feet wet. 

Never hurts to make a reasonable offer....


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

I really appreciate all the responses guys I will take your advice and hold out for a decent saw at a good price. I did e-mail the guy about the jet saw last week but he never got back to me... I did not see that craftsman but I agree it is a little over priced. 

I thought about picking up the rigid R4512 from home Depot but I have a really hard time buying anything new from the big box stores. I would rather get a nice pre-owned item and get more value for my dollar. So it looks like I will just have to hold out until something comes up 

Yes I did check with him and he confirmed it is a 3phase motor. 

thanks again guys! :thumbsup:


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I've been using delta 10" contractor saws professionally since I was your age.

I guess it depends on what you're going to do with it.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*A standard 10" table saw is a good place to start*

That's what I started with 50 years ago and I still have some old Craftsman saws and a nice new 10" Hybrid with a 1 3/4 HP motor. Too much power, like a real 3 HP or worse yet a 5 HP can kick like a mule IF you don't know what you are doing. Better to start out smaller with less power, but it will still kickback. 

Here's the deal as I see it. You won't need 3 HP unless you are cutting 3" hardwood for hours on end. A 1 3/4 HP or even a true 1 HP will be adequate for most woodworking projects, especially sheets or panels 3/4". A standard contractor's saw with an "outboard" motor can always be upgraded as I did and put a 2 HP Baldor motor on the old Craftsman. It ripped up a storm! I dedicated it to ripping only and removed the side extensions. 

The other important aspects of a table saw and it's efficiency are the fence and the blade. Both need to be properly matched for the saw and the material. The fence is the heart of the table saw, because it's the one thing you are constantly adjusting to make your cuts. The blade usually stays on for long periods of time. The fence should be "self squaring" and return to parallel to the miter slots each time its moved and locked down. Measuring twice gets real old if you have the type of fence that won't self align.

When you get real familiar with the table saw and find the need to upgrade to furniture making and require more power, then a cabinet saw will be your next purchase.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Here's a *Walker Turner* with a Biesemeyer fence and mobile base for $250.....worth a call IMO.


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## BernieL (Oct 28, 2011)

I stand with woodnthings on this one. I purchased a 1 3/4hp cabinet saw 12 years ago (Jet's small cabinet saw) and it is serving me well. I have cut 2" thick hardwoods but most of the time I'm working dimensional woods. The 2+ inch woods are cut a bit slower and in the 12 years I think the reset button has had to be pushed 3 times. I like being in control of the saw. I simply need to switch a couple of wires around to increase the hp on my saw but I never will.

As for buying a saw - you already have good advise here - wait and buy something good when you have your own place...


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

The Walker Turner, if running well, looks like a great little cabinet saw. Lots of elbow grease, and it should clean up like new.

Gerry


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## bandman (Jan 15, 2009)

*new table saw*

Get the Walker Turner if it is still available. I had a Walker Turner 14" saw when I had my business and it was a work horse like you can't believe. When I went back to amateur status I bought a Powermatic 66 and love it. The Walker Turner was just too big for a home shop and was three phase. That Walker Turner was also made in America
when they made them well. My Powermatic was one of the last to be made in America. When I had my business we boasted "Made in America, by Americans, using American tools," you would be hard pressed to find enough American made tools to run a shop today unless you buy used.

Good Luck,

Bandman


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

Thanks for all of the replies it has really helped out a lot! I did see that Walker Turner a couple of days ago by passed it up because I had never heard of it (dumb but I am learning). I did a little more research on it based on your suggestions and finally called the guy. It is still available and it is a single phase but it is a 220V. I am married into a family of electricians so I think they could rig me something up. Either way much easier than dealing with both a three phase and 220v.

But it is all cast iron and has two belts and upgraded fence. I think I am going to go with this one it is about two hours away if I have time this weekend. I really appreciate all the input! I will post pics when I pick it up and hopefully get some restoration advice from you guys.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

One more quick question, is there any way to put on a riving knife to these vintage saws?


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

No on most. But check out the bolt on riving knife. (Bork).


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

mnhockeydude said:


> One more quick question, is there any way to put on a riving knife to these vintage saws?


You can add a traditional splitter to just about any saw. The BORK is the only aftermarket riving knife I know of, but I don't know if it'll fit the Walker Turner....I'd contact inventor Bob Ross. 

The Microjig splitter is reasonable and functional.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Many motors can be wired for either 110 or 220 vot by changing the connections in the motor. However, you will have much better performance with 220 volts than you will with 110 volts. If you have electricians in the family it should be pretty easy to add a 220 volt cicruit and breaker to supply the saw.

Gerry


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

mnhockeydude said:


> Thanks for all of the replies it has really helped out a lot! I did see that Walker Turner a couple of days ago by passed it up because I had never heard of it (dumb but I am learning). I did a little more research on it based on your suggestions and finally called the guy. It is still available and it is a single phase but it is a 220V. I am married into a family of electricians so I think they could rig me something up. Either way much easier than dealing with both a three phase and 220v.
> 
> But it is all cast iron and has two belts and upgraded fence. I think I am going to go with this one it is about two hours away if I have time this weekend. I really appreciate all the input! I will post pics when I pick it up and hopefully get some restoration advice from you guys.


aren't walker turner TSs the ones that have that funky table top where the blade elevates up through a slot in the top that's only about 1/2" wide and doesn't allow for the use of a ZCI?


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> aren't walker turner TSs the ones that have that funky table top where the blade elevates up through a slot in the top that's only about 1/2" wide and doesn't allow for the use of a ZCI?


I was reading about that, isn't it the throat plate that is narrower? I can figure out a way around it I'm sure... Other people still use them


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

mnhockeydude said:


> I was reading about that, isn't it the throat plate that is narrower? I can figure out a way around it I'm sure... Other people still use them


to the best of my knowledge, there is no throat plate in the conventional sense of the word. just a slit in the table top that is too wide (it needs to accommodate beveling the blade) to function as a ZCI.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

That picture sure looks like a throat plate is cut into the top. I'd be concerned about being unable to use a dado blade if it didn't have one.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> That picture sure looks like a throat plate is cut into the top. I'd be concerned about being unable to use a dado blade if it didn't have one.


Good point, I don't know how often I would be using a Dado blade and if I did I might want a smaller saw set up with one at all times just because I would not like switching out the blade. 

On a side note, Check this out... http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/4135481539.html


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

mnhockeydude said:


> Good point, I don't know how often I would be using a Dado blade and if I did I might want a smaller saw set up with one at all times just because I would not like switching out the blade.
> 
> On a side note, Check this out... http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/4135481539.html



nice collection, but i place the value @~$1200-1300, max 1400.

regarding your "I might want a smaller saw set up with one at all times just because I would not like switching out the blade."comment, with the WT, it apparently wouldn't be a choice, but a necessity.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

toolguy1000 said:


> to the best of my knowledge, there is no throat plate in the conventional sense of the word. just a slit in the table top that is too wide (it needs to accommodate beveling the blade) to function as a ZCI.


That'd be a big obstacle IMO. Thanks for the insights.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

knotscott said:


> That'd be a big obstacle IMO. Thanks for the insights.


I agree that is a good point. I would like to use a ZCI. From the picture it looks as if there is a removable "throat plate" but maybe I am not seeing something you are. I would be able to make my own if the original is removable.


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## knot head (Dec 20, 2012)

If it were me I would get ridgid 1245 a very good saw an comes at a good price


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodking said:


> If it were me I would get ridgid 1245 a very good saw an comes at a good price


not familiar with the 1245 from ridgid. i do, however, know about the 4512, which, if a HD can be found that will honor the harbor freight "20% off any single item", can be had for ~$400.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

knotscott said:


> Here's a *Walker Turner* with a Biesemeyer fence and mobile base for $250.....worth a call IMO.


i nay have been mistaken about the walker turner TS. if the unit under consideration is the one for which scott provided a CL link, it appears to have a conventional throat plate (insert). 

assuming it does have a conventional insert, +1 on making a call. he fence and mobile base are probably worth more than the purchase price.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> i nay have been mistaken about the walker turner TS. if the unit under consideration is the one for which scott provided a CL link, it appears to have a conventional throat plate (insert).
> 
> assuming it does have a conventional insert, +1 on making a call. he fence and mobile base are probably worth more than the purchase price.


Thanks, yeah I thought it looked like there was one too, I was actually just doing some research on it to make sure. I think it depends on the year it was made... I checked on some other forums and they mentioned that when they owned one it had a throat plate and he was able to make a ZCI. I have talked to him on the phone and he still has it. I would like to drive out there tomorrow and pick it up but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.


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## knot head (Dec 20, 2012)

toolguy1000 said:


> not familiar with the 1245 from ridgid. i do, however, know about the 4512, which, if a HD can be found that will honor the harbor freight "20% off any single item", can be had for ~$400.


Sorry got my numbers backwards not been a good day


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> not familiar with the 1245 from ridgid. i do, however, know about the 4512, which, if a HD can be found that will honor the harbor freight "20% off any single item", can be had for ~$400.


 
Between the Walker Turner and a new rigid with a 20% off coupon which is the best value? noting that the walker Turner comes with a mobile base and biesemyer fence system? 

I do have a Home depot in my town who has them in stock and it would save me four hours of driving and probably $100 in gas.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

woodking said:


> Sorry got my numbers backwards not been a good day



Well here it is after a couple of hours of driving. I was thinking about taking the table off and cleaning it with electrolysis.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think the top needs that level of cleaning.....i'd get 3m scotch brite pads (the green ones) and some wd40 and go to work on it....it should clean up pretty well.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

By the way.......I don't see a fence anywhere...... what kinda of condition is it in?


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> I don't think the top needs that level of cleaning.....i'd get 3m scotch brite pads (the green ones) and some wd40 and go to work on it....it should clean up pretty well.


Yeah that might be true... The fence was in the back of my sub when I took the pictures. I will get more pics with it on. But it is dead on, I measured it numerous times and there is no play in the fence.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

How much did you end up paying for it if you don't mind me asking? 

By the way....electrolysis takes off metal everywhere......so you'll loose metal in places you don't want to...like miter slots.....bolt holes....ect. 

Electroloysis isn't how i'd clean it up...


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> How much did you end up paying for it if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> By the way....electrolysis takes off metal everywhere......so you'll loose metal in places you don't want to...like miter slots.....bolt holes....ect.
> 
> Electroloysis isn't how i'd clean it up...


Thanks for the advice I will start with a scotch brite and see how it cleans up. 

I did end up paying 250 for it. I offered 200 but he said he would keep it for that. But all in all I think it was worth it. It should clean up nice and with a new blade, should cut really well. It really hums...


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

don't forget the wd40 as lubricant with the scotch brite......

is the fence a bisermeyer?


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> don't forget the wd40 as lubricant with the scotch brite......
> 
> is the fence a bisermeyer?


I will, I also got some corrosion x. Would that be better? The Arbor assembly needs some work, it is kinda gummed up. 

The mobile base was a craftsman but not in very good condition...


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

ryan50hrl said:


> don't forget the wd40 as lubricant with the scotch brite......
> 
> is the fence a bisermeyer?


Yes the fence is a biesemyer, very good condition diction, accurate and very heavy duty.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

then 250 is a good deal.....the fence alone is worth that.


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## Julie Mor (Feb 10, 2013)

I've owned a Delta 10" contractor's saw for 20 years and use it a lot. The one thing I wish it had was a current style riving knife. If I were to replace it, the new one would have to have that feature. I also have a DeWalt portable 10" I bought two years ago and I love the riving knife and the dust collection feature. The DeWalt is making me dislike using the old Delta. I think anyone looking for a used table saw, should seriously take those features into consideration before buying. My two cents...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Congrats on the new saw. That should clean up very nicely. Before trying electrolysis, I'd try some Evaporust or even WD40 with a ROS and 100 grit first....work your way up to finer grits or scotchbrite pad from there. 

Be sure to get it aligned and put a decent blade on it.


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## joek30296 (Dec 16, 2009)

You might want to check here for more info on your Walker-Turner table saw. Good info.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=808


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

What is that scarring on the table next to the throat plate? or is it just the light from the camera flash?


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

rbk123 said:


> What is that scarring on the table next to the throat plate? or is it just the light from the camera flash?


It is just some left over duct tape. I used some contractors solution and a chisel to scrape it off.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

knotscott said:


> Congrats on the new saw. That should clean up very nicely. Before trying electrolysis, I'd try some Evaporust or even WD40 with a ROS and 100 grit first....work your way up to finer grits or scotchbrite pad from there.
> 
> Be sure to get it aligned and put a decent blade on it.


Well here it is today. Just a start. There was a lot of gunk on there, dried glue, paint, etc. So I carefully used my cheap hf 1" chisel to scrape off the stuff that was not coming off with the ROS, I used 120 and 220 grit, then a scotch bright with a lot of wd40 I did not have any Evaporust. There are still some dark spots that would not come out. I have an 8 inch angle grinder with a buffing attachment that I thought about using with some compound, but I might just leave it be. 

I just ordered some corrosion x, that I heard a lot of people use. It should be here tomorrow, I am second guessing myself though, should I get some topcoat instead? 

My next challenge is taking off the table top and de-gunking the trunnions, I am going to use some engine degreaser for it, then re-grease everything. My father in law is going to come over to hook up a 220 volt directly from the service panel then I should be in business. 

There is an area on the fence that looks like it got too close to the blade and knicked it at one point. I am thinking about filling it in with 'hard rock' and sanding it flat, or should I replace the whole side of the fence? I am just afraid the wood is going to catch and throw it off...


I was thinking about getting this blade... Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Freud LU83R010 10-Inch 50 Tooth ATB Thin Kerf Combination Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor and PermaShield Coating

Any thoughts?


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

You want to keep the top as flat as possible. Avoid anything that has a chemical reaction. The WD-40 is mainly used to float the metal particles away as they are removed by the ScotchBrite or WoD. 

Without seeing the table, I can't tell if ScotchBrite will work or you may have to go to some 120 grit Wet or Dry paper.

BTW - I've seen the results of tables finished to 400 grit. They looked really good but not polished.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

rrich said:


> You want to keep the top as flat as possible. Avoid anything that has a chemical reaction. The WD-40 is mainly used to float the metal particles away as they are removed by the ScotchBrite or WoD.
> 
> Without seeing the table, I can't tell if ScotchBrite will work or you may have to go to some 120 grit Wet or Dry paper.
> 
> BTW - I've seen the results of tables finished to 400 grit. They looked really good but not polished.


These should have posted


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## rrich (Jun 24, 2009)

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Ships passing in the night. 

From you latest pictures you're there. A little bit of Wet or Dry 320 or 400 should do the trick. Again, avoid the chemicals. As for the "Dark Rust" spots, as long as they are smooth they won't hurt anything.

That is a really good looking saw. And the price makes it look even better.

Johnsons Paste Wax every day for a week, then once a week if your shop gets really cold and collects moisture. If the shop is in your dry basement then JPW about once a month or less. You'll be able to feel when you need to re-wax.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

rrich said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Ships passing in the night.
> 
> ...


Okay thanks! I will go over it with so e 320 and 400. The dark spots are completely flat. Very minor pitting, definitely not enough to affect anything... using my square the table is almost completely flat maybe off by a couple thousandths over two foot, it bows ever so slightly in the middle.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

That's looking a lot better! :thumbsup:

THe LU83 is a very nice choice IMO. 

FWIW, you should be able to replace the knob for the Biesemyer fence....Rockler, Woodcraft, etc.


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## rbk123 (Jan 10, 2013)

mnhockeydude said:


> There is an area on the fence that looks like it got too close to the blade and knicked it at one point. I am thinking about filling it in with 'hard rock' and sanding it flat, or should I replace the whole side of the fence? I am just afraid the wood is going to catch and throw it off...


The problem with filling/sanding the gash on the fence face is you'll end up sanding the good part of the fence around the gash. I believe you have 3 options - 1) swap the left and right side faces if the other face is in better shape, 2) fill the gash with something that hardens like wood filler or bondo but get it as flat as possible with a putty knife/plastic scraper to minimize or eliminate sanding, 3) get new faces.

The iron looks great! It looks like restoring the cosmetics of the fence/rails will be more of a challenge and you have your work cut out for you (see what I did there).

For the blade - I have the Diablo version of that and it's my main general purpose blade. Very happy with it.

Nice saw - keep the restoration pics coming. There's not much that's more beautiful than old iron that looks brand new.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Your new saw is looking just fine. A possibility to think of, for the fence, would be to attach a thin piece of hardwood or slippery plastic along the length of the fence to cover the damage. The advantage to hardwood, is that it could be sacrificial, and easily replaced if damaged. Countersunk screws, set just below the surface of the fence, would make it readily replaceable.

Gerry


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't think that cut in the fence will have any effect on your cuts. As long as the edges are tapered a bit, and don't stick up past the surface. 
Try it as is. It's just a machine, not a show car. It has to work, not look new.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

You can always add an aux fence over the main body to cover the marks.


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

rbk123 said:


> The problem with filling/sanding the gash on the fence face is you'll end up sanding the good part of the fence around the gash. I believe you have 3 options - 1) swap the left and right side faces if the other face is in better shape, 2) fill the gash with something that hardens like wood filler or bondo but get it as flat as possible with a putty knife/plastic scraper to minimize or eliminate sanding, 3) get new faces.
> 
> The iron looks great! It looks like restoring the cosmetics of the fence/rails will be more of a challenge and you have your work cut out for you (see what I did there).
> 
> ...


That is a really good point I think I will just leave it for now then use an aux fence when needed those are all really good ideas and they save me a lot of time from making mistakes! 

I just took the extentions off of the table so that I could get a better look at the motor and trunions. I found I cannot get to them from the side unless I dismounted the motor and got into a whole bunch of stuff the would have taken me a long time to reassemble. 

Would it cause any damage to place the saw on the side and access the trunion from underneath?


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

what's the hp rating of the motor? and does it sit inside the cabinet? are the tunions mounted to the cabinet or the underside of the CI table?


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> what's the hp rating of the motor? and does it sit inside the cabinet? are the tunions mounted to the cabinet or the underside of the CI table?


The motor is a 1 hp and the motor and trunnions are mounted to the table top but I would guess that the table top alone weighs 150 lbs. All of the trunnions and gears are cast iron. 

I am having trouble getting the sliding bracket for the height adjustment to work appropriately, it keeps getting jammed so I have to disconnect the connecting links. I think one of them is crooked. But one of the set screws was completely stripped so I had to drill it out and spent half an hour with dewalt both carbide and titanium bits and still can't drill it out, it is only a 5/16ths of an inch! No wonder these table saws last forever!


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## mnhockeydude (Oct 13, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> what's the hp rating of the motor? and does it sit inside the cabinet? are the tunions mounted to the cabinet or the underside of the CI table?


Well here it is. I figured that the reason I wanted to get into woodworking was to make beautiful things out of something that is essentially nothing, so I figured it would be worth my time to do this with my first saw. Granted I did not do a professional job and there are corners that I cut. It simply was not cost effective for some things, and I would rather spend the money on tools. Time was also an issue due to working full time, deer season, and not completely neglecting get my wife. 

I took everything apart, sandblasted the smaller parts, degreased and oiled everything, repainted everything to prevent rust, replaced the belts with v-link belts, rewired the motor for 110 volt, put a 50 tooth Freud blade in... all while convincing my wife that my time spent in the garage is an investment in future furniture, I hope... I think it will serve me well and I can't wait to get started on some projects!!! 

Oh and it runs great!! Cuts through 3/4 Hickory like butter, no tearout at all. There was some slight burning but I am going to recheck the alignment and make a featherboard. 

I have about $375 into the saw including the gas money to pick it up two hours away. I do need to weld together my own splitter and I also am going to make my own over arm guard out of some scrap metal my father in law has lying around d his farm! 

I have been reading a lot of woodworking books such as "understanding finishing" "the joint book" "complete illustrated guide to table saws" "wood work" "and the basics of craftsmanship" 

Any suggestions for a starter project? I have a router, miter saw, drill press, and most of the other basics.


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