# Is This Turkey Gonna Fly Or What???



## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi there, Everyone:

If you have been keeping score at home, you know that I was disappointed in how my first attempt at creating clothing racks turned out. (See the thread titled "Good Grief I'm An Idiot" if you insist upon reading all the sordid details).



So I am ready to try and implement Plan B and, Surprise, Surprise, I am actually going to try and plan it out BEFORE making it.

Only thing is, I have no idea if this is going to work at all.










*NOTE:* Where it says "side" what I meant is you are seeing the side of the board, and where it says end, it means you are seeing the end grain of the board, etc...

Basically, the ideas would be:

1) Get rid of the top 2 X 3 stretcher

2) Move the vertical 2 X 3 posts closer together so that the same five-foot-long black pipe would extend through the posts. Clothes would hang in front of, and behind, the vertical posts where the black pipe sticks out, as well as between the vertical posts.

3) Change from butt joints at the bottom of the vertical posts (where they currently join the 2 x 3 boards) to M/T joints.

4) cut keyholes in the 1 X 12 bottom stretcher and have the vertical 2 X 3 studs pass through those keyholes.

So my key questions here are:

A) What can I do to "affix" the black pipe to the wood as it passes through the vertical 2 X 3 posts so that it will add rigidity? 

B) At the bottom of the vertical posts where they will be inserted into the 2 X 3 pieces that are lying face down, will I have to cut shoulders and cheeks to make a proper tenon? Or will the joint be rigid enough if I just cut a mortise large enough so that it will accept the entire circumference of the end of the 2 X 3?

Any suggestions about how to do this right would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks in advance everyone.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

My first reaction is - do not use black pipe. Too much overkill.

Sch 40 or if you want to really overkill, Sch 80 PVC pipe. Lighter, MUCH easier to cut and to join.

For the A) question
"_What can I do to "affix" the black pipe to the wood as it passes through the vertical 2 X 3 posts so that it will add rigidity"_
The answer with PVC pipe would be to glue couplings either side of the vertical members. Then the horizontal PVC pipe would be affixed between the members.

PVC pipe is very easy to cut, and very easy to glue the fittings. It needs special glue, but wipe on the glue, press in the pipe, twist to smooth out the glue and as the Brits would say "Bob's your Uncle".


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## jschaben (Apr 1, 2010)

This is a rare moment but I have to respectfully disagree with Dave. 5 ft rack of cloths can get pretty heavy, I don't think black pipe is overkill at all.
Instead of one long pipe, use one longer one, just long enough to pass through both uprights with just about an inch to spare, use pipe couplings on those ends to fix the pipe laterally and then add shorter stubs in the couplings to get the added length.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

I wouldn't use PVC pipe, it will bow under a full load of clothes. 1" pipe is overkill, 3/4 works OK. You should have some form of diagonal bracing, be it gussets, or whatever. The way it is now it is more apt to rack. Perhaps a 2X6 cut on a 45 about 6" long between each vertical and the bottom cross piece.


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## Alchymist (Jan 2, 2011)

Something like this:


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the input.

*@ jschaben*



> Instead of one long pipe, use one _*longer*_ one, just long enough to pass through both uprights with just about an inch to spare...


Do you mean one _*shorter*_ one?



> ...use pipe couplings on those ends to fix the pipe laterally and then add shorter stubs in the couplings to get the added length.


Just so I know we are on the same page, this is a pipe coupling, right?










How would I affix it to the wood posts?

The other option that they said to do at the hardware store was to use a flange. You screw the pipe into the flange and then you screw the flange to the face of the wood posts.










Only problem is that I would need wider posts (2 X 4s instead of 2 X 3s) since the flange is pretty big in diameter. 

So if there is a way to affix the couplings so that the pipe adds to the rigidity, that would be great!

Thanks in advance.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I like the pipe flange idea*

It will add a lot of rigidity. A 2 x 4 will be better anyway. You wont need the top stretcher then. If you want additional hanging length on the ends, then you could use 1/2" pipe and flanges, off the ends of the uprights, but I wouldn't since they are going to stick out too far.


A stretcher like a 2 x 6, or 2 x 8 running on edge in between the to uprights at the base will add more support from racking OR just use a 1 x 8 on both sides of your upright. The higher on the upright you can put a connected piece, them more rigid it will be.

As said above a rack full of clothes, unless summer T's and dresses can be heavy and will want to collapse if bumped or moved. A simple example of racking is a cardboard box with the ends folded in toward the center. When you push on it it will collapse. When you open the ends and tape them down. you can't easily collapse it.  bill


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

The whole structure might be more rigid using pipe from the base up. Use the collar to the base, then thread in vertical pipe. At the top use a 3 way fitting (below) with pipe in between, and at the ends.

















 







.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I would still recommend PVC pipe since it is easier for Wood4Brains to work with.

The pipe needs to be threaded for the couplings, so Wood4Brains is going to need to make good measurements and have the pipe cut and threaded at the store.

If there is a concern for bowing, I would reinforce the pipe with wood dowel. I have done this before.

Also the final rack will be lighter, so easier to move around.

Just one opinion.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Firstly, thanks again, everyone. You are coming up with ideas that I wouldn't have thought of.

I think there are a couple of intriguing ideas here. I should say that I was hoping to reuse the five-foot-long 1 inch black pipe that I already have, since it costs about $15 each. However, if it can't be done, it can't be done.

*@ Cabinetman:*

Again, thanks for the suggestion:



> The whole structure might be more rigid using pipe from the base up. Use the collar to the base, then thread in vertical pipe. At the top use a 3 way fitting (below) with pipe in between, and at the ends.


I think what you are suggesting is something along the lines of this:











I like your idea cabinet man, but I worry a bit about the costs (pipes, flanges and couplings add up pretty darn quickly - much quicker than wood, I am finding).

However, there is one other thing that gives me pause about the idea of using pipe MORE than the costs; I really want to _learn_ wood working (and put some of the tools I have bought to good use), so I guess there is a very stubborn part of me that is saying, "I don't care if it will work better being made out of pipe, I _want_ to make it out of _wood_, gosh darn it."

I dunno... maybe my wife will talk some sense into me? 

*Regarding PVC:*



> If there is a concern for bowing, I would reinforce the pipe with wood dowel. I have done this before.


We have a lot of _wall-mounted_ clothing racks that use 1-1/4 wood dowel (I think it is often referred to as closet pole).

They stand up ok, but there is some noticeable bowing in them. I would be worried that the bowing wouldn't allow it to add rigidity. I guess that by bowing, it would pull the verticals closer together, thus weakening the M/T joints at the bottom.

Someone on the lumberjocks forum mentioned making something for a client:










I have no idea how sturdy something like that could be. I believe the pole is NOT affixed to the verticals. My racks shake like an earthquake.

Also, are they M/T joints from the verticals to the base?


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Ok, here's another idea, that seems simple:

Firstly, I HATE the base, and I HATE the red paint color. She also used 2 X 4, but I would rather not go bigger than 2 X 3, but the concept is ok:










As you can probably tell, the horizontal pole is NOT affixed to the vertical posts, so it does NOT add to the rigidity of the structure.

My main problem is with the base. Surly one can create a more stable base that is more attractive, right?

Also, I would be open to putting a board (like two 1 X 12 boards side edge to side edge) as a bottom stretcher to cover over the base if it was not attractive.

So any suggestion for a good base for the above design?

~~~~~

My thoughts are:

Eliminate the two 15-inch 2 X 4 that stick outwards to the front and back (parallel to the horizontal pole) so that each base would be only three pieces of 2 X 4, not four pieces.

Put a 1 X 12 base stretcher on the bottom with keyholes so that the verticals pass through it. then glue and screw the base stretcher to the edges of the 2 X 4 that make up the base. (then possibly brace the vertical posts to the stretcher base).

Any other thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> *Regarding PVC:*
> 
> We have a lot of _wall-mounted_ clothing racks that use 1-1/4 wood dowel (I think it is often referred to as closet pole).
> 
> ...


The lumberjocks design does not have much to resist racking (side to side movement).

Wood can flex a great deal before it breaks.

A little bowing in the dowel should not impact the rigidity assuming the horizontal dowel is somehow affixed to the verticals.

I think the lumberjocks design joins the verticals to the feet either by M&T joint or by dowels. Both can work.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> Ok, here's another idea, that seems simple:
> 
> Firstly, I HATE the base, and I HATE the red paint color. She also used 2 X 4, but I would rather not go bigger than 2 X 3, but the concept is ok:
> 
> ...


I love to see when people independently come up with the same solution. :thumbsup:

I made some stands for mounting poles for horse jumping. I came up with the same solution. I lag bolted 2x4 to a 4x4 upright, similar to your wife's design, she just used 2x4 for the upright which should be fine for your purpose. The legs added stability in all directions, but they posts were a pain to move, too easy to knock into one of the legs.

The design is not pretty - but it is functional.

I agree that the red paint let's just say, would not be my choice. 

If you are willing to use a stretcher on the bottom, make it go end to end and be the horizontal legs and stretcher. Screw to the uprights. Taper for the legs if you want to make it look better.

For the front to back support, you can cut 1x4 stock at an angle and make a brace design. This moves the suport point a little higher, which may help.

Lots of options.

There is always the bucket filled with concrete and insert the upright. Can be very rigid, also very heavy to move. :icon_smile:


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi there, Dave:

Again, thanks so much for the help!!! :smile:

I am having a little bit of a problem imagining the base / legs as you suggested, and I hope you wouldn't mind clarifying / exemplifying for me:



> If you are willing to use a stretcher on the bottom, make it go end to end *and be the horizontal legs* and stretcher. *Screw to the uprights*. Taper for the legs if you want to make it look better.


1) When you say, "and be the horizontal legs" Do you mean that the stretcher (a 1 X 12 X 60 inch board) would rest face flush _against the ground_? (As opposed to being on top of 2 X 4 that are on edge, similar to the red rack in the picture?)

2) When you say "screw to the uprights," What would the bottom of the uprights screw into?

again, I thank you in advance and I apologize for my ignorance and lack of ability to visualize. I realize that if I knew all the terminology, you could just use clear terms and I would understand it. So I thank you that you again are taking the trouble to say everything in layman's terms while I play catchup on the proper terminology.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> Hi there, Dave:
> 
> Again, thanks so much for the help!!! :smile:
> 
> ...



The 1x12 board can be placed on its edge and run from left to right to be both the outriggers and the stretcher between the verticals as a contiguous board.

The 1x12 would be screwed into the side of the vertical. Very strong.

In this sketch I am showing a taper to cut down on the weight and perhaps look better.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Ok, thanks. I think I got it.

The 1 X 12 would lie on edge and run parallel to the pole for hanging clothes, right? (I can see how that would add rigidity to the verticals).

What would be used to add side-to-side stability? Would you still have 2 X 4 that run perpendicular to the hanging pole? (And if so, would they be face down or edge down?)

thanks in advance.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> Ok, thanks. I think I got it.
> 
> The 1 X 12 would lie on edge and run parallel to the pole for hanging clothes, right? (I can see how that would add rigidity to the verticals).
> 
> ...


Yes the 1x12 is parallel to the pole.

You would still need some front-to-back support.

If you cut these pieces on a diagonal you may find it easier to construct.

Side view. This is assuming the 2x4 on its side, so the sketch is the 4x side.

You have a number of options for attaching.
Screw each brace to the vertical on the side of the vertical.
Extend the brace across the face (one on either face) and screw to the face of the vertical.

In either case you could also through bolt with machine bolts and washers and nuts.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Aha! I see said the blind man, who picked up his hammer and saw!!!

I am going to star measuring this afternoon to see what dimensions I will need. Of course, I reserve the right to mess it up completely!

One final question (seriously); what program are you using to create your sketches?

Thanks again for ALL the help.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> One final question (seriously); what program are you using to create your sketches?


I am using OpenOffice Draw. Not the best, but it is the only one presently installed for XP.

A bit of a pain since it does not allow saving as JPG, so I have to copy the image to the clipboard and then create a file from the clipboard in Photoshop Elements which does allow saving as JPG.


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## Wood4Brains (Jul 25, 2012)

Thank you again.


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## Davearmie (Jul 17, 2012)

Wood4Brains said:


> So I am ready to try and implement Plan B and, Surprise, Surprise, I am actually going to try and plan it out BEFORE making it.


What's the fun in that? :laughing:


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

What about using the pipe you have and just running a pin or bolt call the way through the pipe and the wood uprights that the pipe passes through? If you have 1" pipe and a 3/8" bolt going though it, it will become semi-structural (or more) and should help resist racking if your hole that the pipe passes through is sized correctly.


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## jhagan321 (Aug 14, 2012)

cool stuff dude


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## jhagan321 (Aug 14, 2012)

i really liked it


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