# Breadboard Ends Help



## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Hey guys I am working on a farmhouse table for my brother and have to do some breadboard ends. I was trying to think of an easy way to attach the vertical side board to the horizontal boards. I was planning on doing a mortise and tenon but I am not sure if I would be able to make a mortise hole 3 to 4 inches deep using a regular chisel and a router. 



I just bought a 1in forstner bit I was hoping I could use 1in oak dowels as loose tenons instead of making a mortise and tenon joint. It would be way easier for me to hand drill a 4 inch hole rather than trying to chisel out a square mortise hole. I am going to attach some photos of my design so you guys can get a better idea as to what I am trying to do. I know that wood moves and you are supposed to leave some space in the mortise and tenon joint and I was hoping that by shaving off the sides of the dowel I would account for that, but something tells me that it might not work. 



Should I just do the mortise and tenon joint for breadboard ends or will using dowels work and not crack the wood? My main problem is making a deep 4in hole. What type of chisel is best for deep holes.


Ryan


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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

You don't want to rigidly attach a breadboard end to the table, with dowels or any other means. The table will expand and contract across the grain with changes in humidity and the breadboard end will prevent that and the table will crack & split. You need an attachment method that allows for wood movement.

There are many examples on the web for doing this - example:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/joinery/breadboard-ends-2/


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Im going to give this method a try.

https://youtu.be/0cAoPqd7BMQ

If the center dowel is glued in and rigid and the rest are loose on the breadboard side only it should allow for the movement.


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## Maylar (Sep 3, 2013)

I don't see that method allowing for movement of the width of the table. The dowel holes would have to be oblong, not round and tight fitting.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*there is no allowance for movement ....*



Maylar said:


> I don't see that method allowing for movement of the width of the table. The dowel holes would have to be oblong, not round and tight fitting.



I don't like what I saw. If you have to hammer the breadboards ends on there's no allowance for movement. Loose tenons are actually loose. You don't need 4" deep holes, 2" or so would be fine. The purpose of breadboards ens is to keep the planks from shifting or cupping. When the planks expand or contract across the width the breadboard may actually extend beyond the planks a bit. That's just the nature of the beast. 



If all I had for tools was a drill and Forstner bits, dowels would be about the only choice. So, how do you make oblong holes? Not so easy unless you have a router and a long bit. Maybe two holes not adjoining would work better. Then you can rout out between them. That's what I would look into. 



This approach would be better. It's shown for doors, but would also work for the table top.


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

If a 2" depth is all I need then I will have no problem making the holes oblong with a router.

I just thought since the breadboards on the ends are going to be 7" wide I should have a longer tenon to support them.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Don't try to reinvent the wheel...*

Hello Ryan,

Please disregard this post if you are just wanting to experiment with seeing how things work for yourself...That can be fun too...!!!...  

The video's version is...*strongly not recommended!*...for a number of reasons.

Since you did ask here on the forum, I would offer the following understanding and feedback...

Like I tell most of my students/clients (and folks like you seeking advice) don't try to "reinvent something" until you have a reasonable (or considerable) amount of time doing...whatever it is...the way its know to work...and proven to do so. Once you have that experience, its not only fun, but could lead to even deeper understanding and/or rediscovering a way that has been lost. Some folks have the experience to do this pulling from gathered knowledge from other, while most need to be more practical about it and just...do the work...the way its know to work well over time...

So, from a traditional perspective of the craft of woodworking, the general..."rules of thumb"...(not set in stone)...for most forms of *"bread board ends"*

1. Wood movement...MUST!!!...be accounted for in the proper and understood way...

2. The tenon, spline and/or tongue should (at minimum) should extend 1/2 the width of the Bread Board itself...2/3 is best practice for large one or ones that will take regular bending loads from leaning, lifting or other pressures....

3. Fix from the center of the Bread Board...ONLY!!!...with joinery and/or glue is fine...

Those are the big ones, there are more, but they are more specific to other applications, methods, and systems like green wood, floor systems, structural architectural loads, etc...

Here is a link to a video of a dear friend (a wonderful aspiring craftsperson) that uses nothing but hand tools...

Example of one form of Bread Board End done traditionally

Here is a link to another long post thread on this forum about the same subject:

What I did wrong...


Hope you find this of some value...and please note...there is a lot of advise and guidance on the internet these days...a lot of it isn't based an much more than "opinion' and very little or very narrow experience...

j


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Thanks for all the advice Jay. I would rather not experiment and do it the best way possible with methods that have been proven to work. I didnt know the tennon should be at least half the width of the board. I wonder if it will matter though scince I am putting the legs directly under the breadboard.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Design Choices...*



BrosephMansby said:


> Thanks for all the advice Jay. I would rather not experiment and do it the best way possible with methods that have been proven to work. I didnt know the tennon should be at least half the width of the board. I wonder if it will matter though scince I am putting the legs directly under the breadboard.


Hi Ryan,

I think we are "dipping our toes" into the design end of this now...???

I'm very cautious, as an educator, not to dabble too much (unless asked for a critique) in how someone is going about the presentation aesthetically for their work. "Style" and what you chose for it, is up to the creator of the piece and often outside the context (and taste?) of others.

From a structural perspective, tradition, and wood movement perceptive...I don't think I would recommend a "fixed leg and/or apron" assembly anywhere near the Bread Board end itself. Both aesthetically (my own and tradition) they tend to be set back from the Bread Board a fair distance. This not only accommodates the person that may sit at the end of a table, but also to avoid the issues as described...

Look forward to following your progress...

j


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Loose tenons using a router*

A quick search on You Tube reveals dozens of videos on making loose tenons using a router:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=loose+tenon+joinery+with+a+router+


They are not "wrong" if used correctly. If you understand that the wood will move from the center in or out, then you can glue the center one and allow the end ones to "float". Kinda simple really. The thickness of the tenon and the width of the mortise are what is important to keep the planks flat but still allow for movement laterally.


How you make the tenons or the mortises is entirely your choice, by hand or using a router, or a combination. Either method will work fine. I make my mortises using a router and a centering jig for stock 2" wide or less.


https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/members/woodnthings-7194/albums/mission-quilt-rack/


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Jay has covered most of what I'd recommend...MAIN thing is WOOD MOVES!!!! It's alive, it NEVER dies it just MOVES around!!!

The "What went wrong" link is one of the better informative of MANY threads here regarding breadboards and wood movement and joinery. I also don't recommend the leg or skirting under the breadboard. Don't get overwhelmed , they're NOT as hard to do as they look...just intimidating.

One note is...with all tables with breadboards, at times the breadboard will be "proud" (longer) and other times "shy" (shorter) due to humidity changes effecting the main part of table. Nothing to get bothered by, they've done it for centuries...wood doesn't change....moisture/humidity levels affects it!!! 

Enjoy and have fun!!! Please post us some pics of the build , WE love to see wood!!


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## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

All good info here, I'm absorbing it all. What I don't understand is if you apply any glue to that breadboard piece, how can anything expand or contract if they're all being held at the same point?


Reminds me of when I did a cedar closet last year. I used tongue n groove paneling to line a small closet. I made those joints fit so tightly together I was like yea this one solid closet! Mostly used adhesive and finishing nails. Well, to me surprise, a day or two later I had several boards pop off because the boards expanded and were squeezed. Lesson learned, leave some gap in those grooves!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Only the center board is glued.*



phaelax said:


> All good info here, I'm absorbing it all. What I don't understand is if you apply any glue to that breadboard piece, how can anything expand or contract if they're all being held at the same point?
> 
> 
> Reminds me of when I did a cedar closet last year. I used tongue n groove paneling to line a small closet. I made those joints fit so tightly together I was like yea this one solid closet! Mostly used adhesive and finishing nails. Well, to me surprise, a day or two later I had several boards pop off because the boards expanded and were squeezed. Lesson learned, leave some gap in those grooves!





Only the center board is glued or pinned. All the other boards have tenons but they are NOT glued so they are free to move laterally or horizontally. All the mortises and tenons are a slip/snug fit on the vertical dimension so they will keep the boards from cupping or twisting, at least that's the theory..... The mortises are wider than the tenons on the other boards to allow for movement. 



This video show how this works.... wiggle room for the tenons:







You can make a continuous dado on the table end and then glue in separate spacers that allow for the extra gap for expansion. You just need to "space" the spacers properly for this approach to work properly.


Here's a slightly different approach, still uses a continuous dado, but with a long wedged tenon in the center:


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## phaelax (Dec 24, 2018)

That was a very clear video, thanks. Though I'm still having trouble understanding how this method is effective at allowing expansion. I get that he only glued the center board, but the ones with the pins are sort of locked into place as well, which I would think defeats the purpose of making the holes in the breadboard side larger for the dominoes. And if the end boards are locked into place, then allowing room in the joints for the middle boards to expand seems pointless since they can't really expand due to the end boards unable to move. Maybe I'm thinking about the mechanics incorrectly, I'll draw a pic and post a new thread because I'm curious but don't want to hijack the thread.


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Just an update, bought a drill guide to help me drill the forstner bit straight into the ends of the table. I also made a jig to stay flush with the table. The drill guide did not work! I was hesitant to use it at first as there was about 1/16 play in the chuck but was determined to use dowels. I already bought the dowels and really wanted to use them . I will attach a pic of how crooked the breadboard was when I attached the breadboard to the table.

Im switching to using a router now with an edge guide. Its just very scary using a 3" bit and its going to take longer. Will post pics of what I have so far. By no means does it look pretty but no one will see it any way.

I will post more pics when I get the ends attached.


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

please do not try to plunge a 3" bit with a hand held router and an edge guide. it will be almost impossible to achieve good results, not mentioning the HIGH danger level.


as you can see, dowel joinery takes very precise measuring and drilling which is why it is seldom used any more. the jigs used must be close to perfect 


try checking the 90 degrees on your homemade jig if you want to continue with dowels.... you may just be able to clean some of those holes up and still use it???


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*What he said ^ !!!*

The only way to safely do this on the ends, in my opinion, is to make a pair of "L" shaped supports, 3" or 4" on a side and clamp then to the top on either side. This will support the base of the router while you move it along. Next, because they will be flush with the end surface, the edge guide will need to ride on one of the support's edges. They must be made accurately and parallel to the side faces! 



You don't need the mortise to be 3" deep. It's too much for the router, too dangerous and just not needed for strength. A 2" depth will be plenty. It look like the mortises have been a bit cobbled up. That will be benefit a snug fit for the tenons. You can clean them up using this method IF you are cautious. Make your tenons a corresponding width, and a snug but not binding fit.





I just realized that you have reversed SOP and put the mortises in the table ends rather then having tenons in the ends..... Ooops.
This will keep the planks from shifting as will a proper glue joint, BUT not from cupping, the main purpose of breadboard ends. :sad2:


You won't like this bit of free advice..... saw off what you have and do it properly, tenons on the table top ends and mortises in the breadboard. :| In order to keep the table the same length you could make you breadboard ends wider if that's an issue. :vs_cool:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*This topic was discussed here .....*

See this thread for an anlaysis of mortising the table top end:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/tongue-breadboard-instead-tabletop-209737/#post2029863


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Im doing loose tenons which will prevent cupping.


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Managed to get one side on. Using the router which was so much easier compared to using a drill and forstner bit. Holes are straight and parallel to the sides. 

Decided to only go 2" deep because 3" seemed crazy. Maybe if i had a plunge router I would do 3".

I did mess up the drawboarding though and was pretty pissed. I drilled the holes on the tennon farther away from the center table instead of closer to it. Such a stupid mistake but was just rushing to get it on there. The dowels on the breadboard side in the picture don't go all the way through and are just there to hide the holes.

If I do another table I will not do loose tenons and just cut the tenons from the table itself. Which is what I should have done in the first place. I just thought dowels would be easier.


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

BrosephMansby said:


> Im doing loose tenons which will prevent cupping.


I'm pretty sure that "loose tenon" (aka toggle tenon or free tenon) have little to no bearing on whether a solid build up diaphragm of wood (aka table top) is going to have any "cupping" or not. 

The Bread Board if it is mounted correctly...that is what will arrest cupping at the end of the diaphragm of wood.

If the individual boards are free tenoned and spline to one another this can greatly inhibit (almost stop completely) any cupping, warp, twist at all from taking place within the field of the table itself. This means that there is a free tenon ever 5" to 10" down the length of both sides of the boards/planks (variable to wood thickness and table size these numbers can all go up or down accordingly) and their depth into these can very from all the way through to no less than 2" into plank. This can also be achieve by sliding dovetail and tapperd splines on the bottom of the table too or in addition to the free tenon...

In the picture below:
So I will gather that the middle pin/peg is fixed...???...and the others have the slot cut in them that go into the bread board...Did you take a photo of how large a slot you used?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*All this time I thought a diaphragm was ....*

I thought it was a birth control device among other things, but never knew it was a structural term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragm_(structural_system)


Me thinks there's a diaphragm in my toilet flusher, my Holley carburetor accelerator pump and somewhere inside my chest cavity .... who knew? :vs_cool:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

*Working with PE too much...*

That made me laugh...Thanks...

Moment connections, load in shear and structural diaphragms within roof, wall and related "diaphragms" are bantered about all the time with the projects we do... It just becomes a habit after time. Anything that creates a large field out of smaller parts or materials then becomes a diaphragm whether structural or otherwise...or field...or...just the "table top" which would be better if I could break some of my literary habits...LMAO...


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Yeah, the center tenon is fixed and the others have room to move laterally. Tenons are 4in wide .75in thick.


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## BrosephMansby (Jul 15, 2017)

Yeah your right the breadboard and tenon keeps the table top flat.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

There are other ways to keep a table top flat that don't have the problems the breadboard has. The breadboard end since it's not completely glued on is easily broken loose and then needs repair. Then over time the top shrinks and the breadboard end stick out past the top on each end. 

If you are building a table the top that is fastened to the table if you put a board flat under the top behind the skirt with elongated screw holes it will allow for the wood movement and be out of sight. Also the underside of the table should be finished. This is something that is seldom done and a moisture imbalance from one side to the other is the leading cause of a table top warping. By not finishing the underside it allows moisture from the air to make the underside swell causing it to warp. By sealing both sides the moisture content is more likely to stay the same on both sides.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*How to stop cupping, other ways than a breadboard*



Jay C. White Cloud said:


> .......
> 
> 
> 
> *If the individual boards are free tenoned and spline(d) to one another this can greatly inhibit (almost stop completely) any cupping, warp, twist at all from taking place within the field of the table itself.* This means that there is a free tenon ever 5" to 10" down the length of both sides of the boards/planks (variable to wood thickness and table size these numbers can all go up or down accordingly) and their depth into these can very from all the way through to no less than 2" into plank. This can also be achieve(d) by sliding dovetail and tapered splines on the bottom of the table too or in addition to the free tenon...



This approach is one I've not seen before, but it may make a good case for biscuits, dowels, Dominos and loose tenons. I see how it would work by restraining the edges of the planks from moving by connecting it mechanically to the adjoining plank. 



I'd like to see this done and tested over time. Wider planks are always more prone to cupping and are often ripped in 2 and reglued to maintain the grain pattern. :vs_cool:


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

Steve Neul said:


> ...There are other ways to keep a table top flat that don't have the problems the breadboard has...


I can't speak to someone else's experience with this family of joinery...to be sure!

It could be poorly done examples and/or some other abuse, event unknown to have such deleterious effects, or issue at play from just poor design application...

What I can attest to is that even without glue, traditional fixed tenon and/or free tenon joinery systems within breadboards (and related applications) when designed and facilitated properly have no issues whatsoever over time with becoming "broken loose." This has been true for the countless historical examples I have examined, nor in the modern interpretations that you could literally..."hang a truck from"...again without adhesives in many of these iterations...

I could not agree more that the failure to finish appropriately both sides of a table is often a formula for disaster...especially for the less robustly jointed examples I see going together today...


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## 35015 (Nov 24, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> This approach is one I've not seen before, but it may make a good case for biscuits, dowels, Dominos and loose tenons. I see how it would work by restraining the edges of the planks from moving by connecting it mechanically to the adjoining plank...I'd like to see this done and tested over time. Wider planks are always more prone to cupping and are often ripped in 2 and reglued to maintain the grain pattern.


Hi Woodnthings,

The biscuits just don't have the "meat" to work well, or be applicable structurally... 

As for *"testing over time,"* that has already been done in many examples both historical and contemporary applications. Dowels and loose tenon (what a Domino is today) when sized appropriately are well proven over centuries of applied relevance in floors, covered bridges, ship hauls, and related practiced implementation of this form of structural joinery. This is true to the point that structural roof/floor diaphragms are part of PE sign offs on projects all the time now, with just one example being the floors/walls of wooden skyscrapers where this exact application is employed routinely...but of course in a modern context. 

The timber fame I designed in Wisconsin for the public Farmers Market in Menomonie employees loose toggle tenon (aka Domino) in the roof corbel assemblies to the rafter plate. These take on massive loads during wind and snow events. Being a public space, the engineering scrutiny such joinery gets, from not only the PE I work with, but also state PE is arduous and intense to say the least. They would not ever sign off on anything that wasn't tested...and/or...well proven within the historic vernacular...

If you go back through some of my posts, I have shared links, photos, and videos of examples of these...:vs_cool:


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