# Powermatic 66



## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Hello, my name is Jim and I'm new to this forum. It was recommended to me to join this forum to obtain answers for some of my questions. I have always wanted a good table saw. I have always hoped for a cabinet saw. My neighbor is selling his across the street. It’s an older Powermatic and he suspects that it was made in 1966 due to the S/N. I have heard that might actually be a good thing since it was American built back then. It’s a 230V so it has to be a 3 or 5 horse power motor.

The issue however, as he points out, is that the blade “wonders”. He noted that after setting the biesemeyer fence to a specific distance that after a couple of cuts and as he terms it, “the saw warms up”, the gap has changed about 1/8th of an inch. The “deck plate” (forgive my terminology) validates this as the opening now is much larger than the kerf of the blade. He and I suspect it’s the arbor bearings but we feel no “slop” in it. It feels pretty firm when we try to move it. 

Another question is regarding the Biesemeyer fence. It is the 52 inch version. I have measured and find it a tad too big for my available storage space. Has anyone ever cut one of these down? Jeff (my neighbor) says that it can be cut down to whatever length works for me and that he bought it this way and has never really taken advantage of it. Most video’s I’ve seen do show a smaller side fence. The danger of kick back on cutting something that wide does seem to validate this thought and I am a hobbyist and not running a production shop. 

My questions are as follows:

1. Would replacing the arbor and all it’s hardware/bearing fix this issue?
2. Could the bearing arm be the cause of this?
3. Is the Biesemeyer best left alone or can it indeed be trimmed down about 12”
4. Is $500 plus the $133 to Powermatic for the Arbor Bearing assembly worth the risk?

If I spend the money and it still wonders, I’m in it for $650. I have thought of spending the money for the Arbor and see if this resolves the problem. A much smaller gamble. Thank you all for reading this far and any knowledge shared here.

Best regards,

Jim


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Welcome to the club. 

More than likely the problem is more simple than replacing the bearings. It may be the blade is a little warped and needs replacing. Watch the blade when you turn it off just before it stops and see if it is turning true. If not then try a different blade and see if that makes a difference. Even if the bearings need replacing that isn't a very bad job and you can use stock bearings available everywhere. Usually when it is a bearing you will know it. There will be some looseness or at least noise. 

You can cut the Biesemeyer fence rail down, just keep it a secret. Break the hearts of most of us here. Myself I added about 20" to mine to have table extensions on the left side of the blade. The fence rail is just angle iron and tubular steel easily cut off with a circular saw with a metal cutting carborundum blade. It would be easier to cut if you removed it from the saw and used a 10" carborundum blade on a miter box. If the miter box has a lot of plastic on the guard cut a little at a time or line the guard with foil to keep from burning up the guard.


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## notskot (Feb 22, 2015)

$650 for that saw would a be a steal IMO if it's in decent shape. Unless something is broken in the undercarriage, there's not much that can't be fixed with reasonable effort and cost.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

1. The fence tube can indeed be cut 

2. 500 is a steal for a pm66...

3. Remove the belts and see if you can find play in the arbor.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

I would buy it.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Thank you for the quick responses! As to wobble in the blade, I believe a new blade was put in to test this, plus Jeff reports that once the "movement as happened, he adjusts the fence and continues with no issues. I think that's why he believes it's a warming up issue. Once it gets going, that blade moves towards the fence and then stays steady. I'll run these observations past him.

+Steve Nuel - Stock bearings? So I can get these everywhere? That may well be the fastest verification and the most likely fix IMO. I can add that there is no "noise" common to bad bearings and it does feel solid, but we have not removed the belts so I'll try that. Getting our schedules to jive is tough with our respective jobs, but I will provide updates when possible in case anyone remains curious. 

Again, thank you!!


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Stock Bearings...bearings readily available at a bearing supply shop


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I would buy it.


Well, you don't count. You buy machinery and forget to pick it up. :laughing:


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

jimsryker said:


> Thank you for the quick responses! As to wobble in the blade, I believe a new blade was put in to test this, plus Jeff reports that once the "movement as happened, he adjusts the fence and continues with no issues. I think that's why he believes it's a warming up issue. Once it gets going, that blade moves towards the fence and then stays steady. I'll run these observations past him.
> 
> +Steve Nuel - Stock bearings? So I can get these everywhere? That may well be the fastest verification and the most likely fix IMO. I can add that there is no "noise" common to bad bearings and it does feel solid, but we have not removed the belts so I'll try that. Getting our schedules to jive is tough with our respective jobs, but I will provide updates when possible in case anyone remains curious.
> 
> Again, thank you!!


Powermatic doesn't make the bearings for their saws. If it comes down to replacing the bearings it will have a number on the side of it which you can get from a bearing house or some auto supply houses. Grainger would also carry the bearings.


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## Stevedore (Dec 28, 2011)

If it were me, I'd want to know exactly where the problem was before I started replacing parts. See if you can find out what's changing after it runs. 

Run the blade up all the way when it's cold & somehow measure between the arbor flange & the bearing carrier, then do the same after it's warmed up & the blade has changed position relative to the fence. If that measurement stays the same, I would doubt that it's the arbor bearings. 1/8" would be a LOT of change to be caused by bearings, unless they were really loose & ready to fall apart.

Maybe something's happening where the bearing carrier pivots on the trunnion? Could the table be shifting relative to the cabinet? 

$500 is a bargain, even with the problem needing to be solved.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

notskot said:


> $650 for that saw would a be a steal IMO if it's in decent shape. Unless something is broken in the undercarriage, there's not much that can't be fixed with reasonable effort and cost.


+1: I agree totally. And it may not need bearings. 
If you unplug the saw and turn the blade slowly by hand against a framing square, I think you could determine if the blade is bent or not. 
The saw is worth $500 even if you have to carry it into a shop for a tune-up. 
A Powermatic TS will last a hobbyist/woodworker a lifetime.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

notskot said:


> $650 for that saw would a be a steal IMO if it's in decent shape. Unless something is broken in the undercarriage, there's not much that can't be fixed with reasonable effort and cost.


+1: I agree totally. And it may not need bearings. 
If you unplug the saw and turn the blade slowly by hand against a framing square, I think you could determine if the blade is bent or not. 
The saw is worth $500 even if you have to carry it into a shop for a tune-up. 
A Powermatic TS will last a hobbyist/woodworker a lifetime.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Well, this is all really great information and I feel inspired. Away from home on business and we as a family are planning/prepping for an upcoming event, but I will get it across the street and get it into my garage for trouble shooting. Did I mention it's on wheels? It's got a system where it pops up on wheels and you can maneuver it and drop it back down.


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## bwolfgra (Aug 18, 2013)

Even with wheels, make sure you have lots of help if you try to roll it across the street. If it starts gets off balance and starts to tip, you won't be able to stop gravity from winning.

Also, I'm jealous. I think you'll be happy when you get it up and running.


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## MSW_Shop (Jun 7, 2015)

Does anyone know if this guy got the saw and if it's still working.
I'm in a similar predicament.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

MSW_Shop said:


> Does anyone know if this guy got the saw and if it's still working.
> I'm in a similar predicament.


Sorry for my tardiness here. Had to prep and take the family on an adventure camping trip so that put this topic on hold. I am now however going to continue with this. I have been working to create space in the garage for this Powermatic. From what replies I've seen here and items that I've read, I plan to make another check and most likely purchase it. I will post what I find and my fix if I get it. Thanks. 

Jim


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

FWIW, I replaced the bearings in my PM66 for about $25 (from my local bearing supply house).


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> FWIW, I replaced the bearings in my PM66 for about $25 (from my local bearing supply house).


That's very encouraging info! Thanks!


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## CherryWoodWorker (Nov 11, 2012)

I am no expert on tools, but if the saw is worth the money I would buy it. Instead of destroying the fence, replace it with one that suits your needs. Then if you ever upgrade your space, then you could re-install the 52" railing back on it. and it would be a win win. That is my 2 cents worth.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

CherryWoodWorker said:


> I am no expert on tools, but if the saw is worth the money I would buy it. Instead of destroying the fence, replace it with one that suits your needs. Then if you ever upgrade your space, then you could re-install the 52" railing back on it. and it would be a win win. That is my 2 cents worth.


great advice. any piece of metal meeting the specs of the original tube will work. cutting the existing rail is a "no going back" move, unless a new tube is purchased. never do anything irreversible to the OEM parts of a tool. just my $.02.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Well, it's here. An additional storage shed, some items moved and things seem to fit. Jeff says I can take my time as he is not using it so techincally I still don't own it. I next plan to remove the top to expose the internal machinery. I hope to ID the source of this "movement". Posting a couple of photo's and I'll update as time permits.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

CherryWoodWorker said:


> I am no expert on tools, but if the saw is worth the money I would buy it. Instead of destroying the fence, replace it with one that suits your needs. Then if you ever upgrade your space, then you could re-install the 52" railing back on it. and it would be a win win. That is my 2 cents worth.


Now, the plan is not to cut the fence. I can fit it in the garage to that's good news. I was not feeling good about that either so now it's a big sigh of relief. Found this clever YouTube vid that illustrates what I'm looking forward to. I have a feeling it's going to be a "learn as I go" event. 

https://youtu.be/ViKmwhVMXpE


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## TimPa (Jan 27, 2010)

money well spent. get the drift problem resolved before you put it to regular use. 
I would look for a shifting collar, loose pin, etc. bad bearings don't make sense for drift. how long to return to cool down position? check sheave/belt alignment before and after.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

If the arbor feels tight yet the position of the blade is drifting side to side, it could be that a snap ring has come off the pivot pin. The pivot pin is the pin that the blade holding casting pivots on.

Below is the end of a pivot pin that has lost its snap ring. The snap ring groove can clearly be seen. In this instance, the blade would drift from side to side as it was raised and lowered.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

TimPa said:


> money well spent. get the drift problem resolved before you put it to regular use.
> I would look for a shifting collar, loose pin, etc. bad bearings don't make sense for drift. how long to return to cool down position? check sheave/belt alignment before and after.


I was thinking along the same lines. A retaining clip or pin? I started it up and it was way too smooth and quite to be a bearing problem. I found that the cover plate that the blade extends up through contacts the blade. Actually interferes and the blade starts to cut it. I need to remove the top surface and dig in. I think that needs to be resurfaced as well. 

I know the terminology isn't correct, but hopefully you get my meaning...


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Bob Vaughan said:


> If the arbor feels tight yet the position of the blade is drifting side to side, it could be that a snap ring has come off the pivot pin. The pivot pin is the pin that the blade holding casting pivots on.
> 
> Below is the end of a pivot pin that has lost its snap ring. The snap ring groove can clearly be seen. In this instance, the blade would drift from side to side as it was raised and lowered.


Holy cow! Exactly what I was just thinking/typing! That gives me encouragement.


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## honesttjohn (Jan 27, 2015)

Jim,

The guys on this forum are good. A little crass at times, but pretty darn good.

HJ


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sorry if I implied any sarcasm but I was/am genuinely encouraged with this and all comments here. I was thinking along these lines and Bob’s comments bolstered my suspicions. I got the table top off yesterday. Man is that thing heavy! I spent time looking into the chassis to see if the issue would be obvious. At first, I saw nothing, but eventually, I noted a perfectly straight line in the saw dust on the pivot pin. I articulated the assembly through its full ranges of motion and when I had raised it up, pivoted left and began to lower it, I noticed a slight shift or movement of the bearing assembly on the pivot pin. It appears to have all parts and I emphasize “appears”, but I’m certain I saw it move. This would fit in with exactly what I’m seeing. The amount of movement on the pin seems to match the width of the slot in the cover plate on the table top. 

When I would raise or lower the bearing assembly as if I were raising or lowering the blade, I noticed that the big hex nut to the left in the photo would move intermittently with the pin. I started to play with the square headed nut up top circled in red. It appeared to be barely tightened down and if I rotated the pivot pin by the large hex head, there seems to be a ‘flat’ spot on the pin. I tightened the square head on what I suspect is the flat spot on the pin and then raised and lowered the blade. Now the large hex head pivots with the pin through the whole range of motion instead of intermittently. I thought I had found the problem. I put everything back together, squared up the blade and turned it on. As I raised the blade up through the cover place, it began to cut or widen the slot, cutting through the material. Once fully raised, I left it running and the sound I heard was akin to the blade making contact with the slot on the cover plate. I began to suspect that the issue is not resolved. I shut it down, got a ½ inch tooling pin I have to calibrate my caliper with and set the gap with my fence. When I turned it back on, I let it run for some time and then stopped and checked the gap with my tooling pin. Appeared good. I turned it back on and let it run some more. The whole time, it sounds like the blade is making contact. When I shut it down, the tooling pin no longer fits as snuggly, so there is definite movement. I put everything back together and stowed it away for the night. 
So that’s where I stand… I strongly suspect there is something ‘wrong’ with the pivot assembly and there are other items that I have questions about. Perhaps I can ask those later when I get this question solved. I am thinking I should just replace that whole assembly. Looking at the parts list, I’m thinking it could be bad or missing spacers or retaining clips or the pin too. Has anyone ever taken this apart down to that level? Should I still plan on getting the saw? It’s still not officially mine. I’m lucky it belongs to my good neighbor and he has told me to ‘have at it’ in determining if I want it.
Thanks everyone for any and all input.
Regards,
Jim


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Jim - take a look at my restoration and see if any of the photos help you out - http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/restoration-powermatic-66-table-saw-71249/

I haven't looked at these photos in a while but if I didn't post a shot similar to what you've shown here I know I have one. I also know that I used a socket head set screw instead of the square head but I do remember it locks down tightly to hold that pivot shaft in place.

David


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Jim - take a look at my restoration and see if any of the photos help you out - http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/restoration-powermatic-66-table-saw-71249/
> 
> I haven't looked at these photos in a while but if I didn't post a shot similar to what you've shown here I know I have one. I also know that I used a socket head set screw instead of the square head but I do remember it locks down tightly to hold that pivot shaft in place.
> 
> David



Thank you David! I got about half way thru, skimming over the photo's and comments, before I had to shut down for the night. I will continue today as time permits. I talked to my neighbor Jeff who is selling me this saw and asked some questions about work he has done and if he knew of any work done prior to him purchasing it. Specifically regarding the arbor and the pivot pin. He replied that he had only replaced one of the worm gears. He did not recall which... He speculated about the arbor spacer being a possible cause or maybe the bearings, but not the pivot pin like I think. I am wondering at this point what my approach should be. Order all parts related to the pivot pin solely or that plus a new arbor. I may need to further verify that the movement I believe I saw was no mistake. 

As to the square head bolt, Jeff believes the saw was manufactured in 1966 due to the serial number. That may be the reason for that. I did tighten it very securely. I tried to back it out, but after a bit, it began to bind as if it was only meant to back out so far. There has got to be more at play here. I can't believe that the only thing stopping the pin from moving left or right is that squared headed bolt.

Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jimsryker said:


> Thank you David! I got about half way thru, skimming over the photo's and comments, before I had to shut down for the night. I will continue today as time permits. I talked to my neighbor Jeff who is selling me this saw and asked some questions about work he has done and if he knew of any work done prior to him purchasing it. Specifically regarding the arbor and the pivot pin. He replied that he had only replaced one of the worm gears. He did not recall which... He speculated about the arbor spacer being a possible cause or maybe the bearings, but not the pivot pin like I think. I am wondering at this point what my approach should be. Order all parts related to the pivot pin solely or that plus a new arbor. I may need to further verify that the movement I believe I saw was no mistake.
> 
> As to the square head bolt, Jeff believes the saw was manufactured in 1966 due to the serial number. That may be the reason for that. I did tighten it very securely. I tried to back it out, but after a bit, it began to bind as if it was only meant to back out so far. There has got to be more at play here. I can't believe that the only thing stopping the pin from moving left or right is that squared headed bolt.
> 
> Thanks. :thumbsup:


This is what the pivot pin looks like and the set screw (square headed bolt) should come out unless the end of it is flared from over tightening.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> This is what the pivot pin looks like and the set screw (square headed bolt) should come out unless the end of it is flared from over tightening.
> View attachment 167553


Ah, that's gold!! Exactly what my mind envisioned when I was playing with the large castellated nut on the end. When I backed it out and rotated the pivot pin, it would stop as it made contact with the edges of that flat spot. If I continued backing it out, the pin could then be rotated 360 degrees. 

So... Do we think that this bolt (square headed in my instance) is the sole item that secures the bearing arm assembly from left or right movement on the pivot pin? Total costs for a new pivot pin, the spacers and the retaining ring would be less than $30 I believe. Just tightening the bolt down securely still showed movement so something more is happening I think.

I plan to remove the table top again. This time with help to be safe. I have more questions that I can post here on items that I did not understand. I think there are plenty here that know right off what I'm looking at. At this point, I'm thinking of pulling the motor and then the pin assembly. That should free the bearing arm and arbor. Install new parts and see if that fixes this. If not, I'll then get some new bearings for the arbor. Somewhere out there is the solution to this problem.

Thanks


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

David, another question. Do you recall the spacer under the nut on the end of the pivot pin? The parts list shows one on each end of the pivot pin, plus the retaining clip/ring on the other end from the big nut. Does the spacer on the "nut" end of the pin nest in the center trunnion? I don't see one so I'm thinking this might have been overlooked at some point when work was done that involved disassembly. I'm wondering if it's that or if it's hidden underneath? I'm hoping you have a photo of this. I seem to have a similar model. Mine has 3 belts as well.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey Jim - if I recall, the nut locks against a shoulder with washers on both outboard sides of the trunnion housing. I don't remember there being any play in the pivot shaft, at least not a substantial amount. It should be free to rotate but no left/right movement. There will be space between the pivot arm (bearing arm) and the trunnion housing, as shown in the photo below. And yes, I would tend to agree that the set screw/lock bolt is the sole point of securing the left/right movement of the pivot arm on the pivot shaft.









Does that help? Holler if you need more photos - glad to assist!
David


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Does that help? Holler if you need more photos - glad to assist!
> David


Great pic David. Thanks! As I progress, I'll post here for review. I will disassemble the trunnion and arbor/bearing arm and see what I have. When I get the top off again, I'll try to get a pic posted here of the pivot pin and my suspected lack of a spacer. 

Regards,

Jim


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Continued Breakdown of Powermatic 66*

I have once again removed the table top and now the electric motor is removed and the Bearing Arm Assembly as well. No play noted in the Arbor. Feels very stationary but I realize that's no sure guarantee that there's no "drifting" happening there. I still feel that the pivot pin is the most likely cause of this problem. From the Powermatic Web Site, the exploded view of the Trunnion Assembly, it shows the pivot pin with two spacers, a retainer ring and of course the Hex nut that secures it all. Mine came apart fairly easy but I found that it is indeed missing one of the spacers. The one I do have is 1/16th or .0625 in thickness but Jeff and I are wondering if it's the original part. The saw was originally owned by a company that manufactured redwood gazebo's. It's possible some work was done to the saw and they lost or misplaced the parts and made due with this. I say that because it has a keyway in the spacer but there is nothing on the Center Trunnion or the pivot pin that would take advantage of this keyway to stop rotation. 

David or anybody, do you recall if yours had this keyway? While it appears the square headed bolt is the only thing that holds the Bearing Arm Assembly from moving left or right on the pin, correct spacing I believe would be needed to secure the entire item from moving. I think that's why I saw the movement when I was articulating everything.

One final question for those in the know... The castellated nut. Does the crenel portion point to the trunnion or away from it? It was pointing away but the crenel part looks like it should point to the trunnion. My experience with this type of retaining nut would point away, but it appears to present a much flatter surface then the other end on the nut. Like it was designed to hold the spacer flat against the trunnion. The exploded view on the web site doesn't show it at all... Sorry about the picture quality. Looks like my phone needs a tripod. :laughing:


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Forgot to add that the bottom photo is the Rear Trunnion and I was wondering if that mismatch is cured with shims. I watched your video David about how you shimmed yours and the subsequent free movement of entire assembly. I could not help but notice that the other end does not have this mismatch so I thought to ask... Everything does seem to move OK however.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jimsryker said:


> Forgot to add that the bottom photo is the Rear Trunnion and I was wondering if that mismatch is cured with shims. I watched your video David about how you shimmed yours and the subsequent free movement of entire assembly. I could not help but notice that the other end does not have this mismatch so I thought to ask... Everything does seem to move OK however.


I don't see the mismatch to which you refer in the bottom photo, but I would say that if the center trunnion moves freely then it's probably fine like it is. And as far as the nut is concerned, mine is not castellated and I put it back on the way I took it off (it had never been off). I agree with you on the spacer with the keyway - no reason for a keyway on that spacer.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

The mismatch I was referring to was between the trunnion assembly and that "half moon" guide or slide that it rides upon. Kind of center/left in the photo. The other end (not in the photo) is flush. It's a bad photo I realize... 

On another topic, I have been watching vid's and looking at photo's and rarely see riving knife's or pawls. I wondered why that is. I can see the hardware in this older saw for this and wondered if I should plan on getting something like that. I have never owned a table saw and realize the need for safety but wondered why I never see this on all the videos I watch. Some of the guys I subscribe too are very skilled, but I never see the riving knife. A bit off topic I know, but I'm about to order the missing spacers for the pivot pin and wondered if I should add the riving knife or go after market or just plain skip it.

Thanks,


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

I don't think there's a riving knife available for these models of the PM 66. I think we took the guard/pawl off the saw the day it arrived in 1990 and I've not seen it since. Frank Howarth has a good video (all his are good) on making a throat plate with splitter and I might borrow that idea one day soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNXuYlwI8N0


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Went to the local DIY store and found plain ol washers that might have worked but they were not the correct thickness nor was the OD correct either. I bit the bullet and ordered them from Powermatic after not finding what I needed on Grainger or McMaster Carr. Boy I really had to swallow my frustration on the shipping. They said it was a package rated as 2 lbs. Hah! Not even 2 oz. And 11 days of ground shipping to boot. Yeesh!

SPACER 1 1/8X1 5/8 X 1/16 14TILT ARB#66
2
$2.95
Item Total

$5.90
Tax

$0.47
Shipping & Handling

$11.98

*Order Total*
$18.35


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

*PM Assembled*

The shims I ordered arrived yesterday and today I assembled the saw again and ran some test cuts. Not before I did some test runs and observed no apparent movement of the blade. I installed the table top and aligned it to the blade and made my first cuts! Very exciting but anxious. No riving blade and I used some makeshift push sticks out of some scrap wood laying around. I'd be lying if I didn't admit I was very nervous about kickback. I'm surprise at how spot on it seems to be. If I set the fence to 4 inches, my calipers verify that it's exactly 4 inches. 

Took some toothpaste to the plastic window on the Biesemeyer and re-inked the line on it with a fine point sharpie. Came out pretty good I have to say. First things will be push sticks and a cross cut sled. I'll have to start looking for a place that sells quality sheet goods for my projects. I don't know that Home Depot or Lowe's carries anything that I consider project worthy. 

Here are the new shims top right with the one I found installed below. The new shims verify that the key way was indeed not stock. I believe my original findings were correct and that the shims prove to be the fix.

The second photo shows the bearing assembly installed. The casting was not accurate and you can see the bevel where the pivot pin is exposed. That is a .0655 drill bit that proved to be just about exactly what the gap was. I marked it so I would know where to perform future fit checks. After running it for approx. 10 min., the gap never changed. Note the new grade 8 hex head bolt. I replaced the stock square headed bolt that was there. The tight threads were cleaned up with a 3/8th 16 tap. There were some definite metal burrs and possible old loc-tight fouling the threads. Now it goes in smoothly and its very snuggly tightened down to hold the bearing assembly in place on the pivot pin

The third photo shows the blade at exactly 5 inches. You can see the reflection in my machinists square. At least in the original photo. The server here shrunk the file size down. The other 90 degree square while not showing it, has zero a gap between it and the blade and throat plate. Again, very true considering...

Lastly, temp of the belts and arbor housing. After running it for about 10 minutes, I seemed very hot. 174 degrees at the pulling and the bearing housing was about 144. The arbor without the blade was 122 degrees. Anyone ever note if theirs got this hot? Just curious. No movement that I could discern at the bearings. 

Thanks to everyone who commented and provided ideas and instruction. Thank you David, your info and links were very helpful sir!

Regards,

Jim


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Glad I could assist, Jim. Looks like you've got a good saw to build some neat projects. My belts and arbor get hot, as well, but I haven't checked the temp. I may do that just for comparison.

David


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

That would be great info. The model I have uses three belts and I noted to Jeff (the seller) that the V notch pulley would generate heat by virtue of the belts nesting into the groove at high speeds. He was concerned about the heat and I quite frankly don't know enough to tell if that was expected or not. I think so, but a comparison would be great. I used one of those handheld laser temp. guns, BTW...

My first project is push sticks. Went to the HD and also bought a new 10" 80 tooth Freud blade. Wow! What a difference. A lot of the nervousness last night was how hard it was to push the material through. I now know the blade was dull. DOH!  Today, the material pushed through like satin. What a difference and I feel much better about the cuts. The result was very square as well.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Nov 25, 2008)

Grrriper 3d push block. Love mine.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

New drive belts always run hot. That will settle down after an hour or so of running.

In the 1970s I saw the profile of the below push stick. I made one and tried it. I won't use anything else now. The way it is configured, if it was your job to get your hand into the blade you can't do it without doing something very counter-intuitive. Your hand is always forward of the end of the stock. You can hold down thin or narrow stock, grooving up the bottom of the stick instead of your fingers. When the bottom is grooved up to the point of being useless, re-cut the bottom. I keep all kinds of them handy hanging from a ceiling bracket right above the table saw.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey Jim - I finally got the chance to check the temps on my saw. I only let it run about 5 minutes, which is about 4 minutes longer than it usually runs (I make a lot of small fixtures and cuts, no sheet goods or big items).

Pulley - 118
Arbor housing - 100
Belts - 137

And because I'm in the process of building my first acoustic guitars, my push stick reflects that theme - 

1/2" Walnut


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Push Sticks*

Before anyone had posted these great ideas, I had already started on a version I had seen on a site I subscribe to. In fact, the dye was cast in that I was already painting them by the time I saw all these great examples. 

I went and got a clear piece of 1X6X6 pine and cut the following. Painted them florescent orange so I don't lose them in the mix.

I can use this as a segway to another topic. The issue of the missing chute on this saw. All that was present was the angle iron that the chute was tack welded to. I'm guessing that this would deflect some/most of the saw dust down. As it stands, most of it shoots out the front of the saw now. It was the holiday and my local shop for steel was closed so I made due with a length of 20 gauge flat stock. Tin I believe so this produced the worst welds I have ever created. Once I bolted it into place, it did not do a dang thing! :laughing: I don't think it was tall enough but I was trying to avoid striking the throat plate when I canted the blade far left. I'll look through the photo's here and see if your thread David has a pic of the chute. I may try again and see if I can have more success. If anyone has any stock chutes or creations of their own, I'd love to see them! 

Regards,


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Hey Jim - I finally got the chance to check the temps on my saw. I only let it run about 5 minutes, which is about 4 minutes longer than it usually runs (I make a lot of small fixtures and cuts, no sheet goods or big items).
> 
> Pulley - 118
> Arbor housing - 100
> ...


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey Jim - see if these help. I zoomed in on some shots and captured just the chute. David


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Excellent! I'm gonna try again and mimic that more aggressive angle. This time, no galvanized or tin! Hah.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

jimsryker said:


> .......*Went to the HD and also bought a new 10" 80 tooth Freud blade*. Wow! What a difference. A lot of the nervousness last night was how hard it was to push the material through. I now know the blade was dull. DOH!  Today, the material pushed through like satin. What a difference and I feel much better about the cuts. The result was very square as well.


Hang on there Jim. An 80 tooth blade is meant primarily for crosscutting thin plywood with veneers to avoid tear out. Read the box it came in and you'll see pretty much it's a limited use blade.

A better blade with more versatility would be a 50 tooth combination blade which can be used for ripping as well as crosscutting. You may find that for ripping 2" stock a 24 tooth blade will heat up less and have a more aggressive feed rate. I have used a 40 tooth for almost all my table saw cuts with good success.
You should have more than one type of blade!
http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/12395


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Hang on there Jim. An 80 tooth blade is meant primarily for crosscutting thin plywood with veneers to avoid tear out. Read the box it came in and you'll see pretty much it's a limited use blade.
> 
> A better blade with more versatility would be a 50 tooth combination blade which can be used for ripping as well as crosscutting. You may find that for ripping 2" stock a 24 tooth blade will heat up less and have a more aggressive feed rate. I have used a 40 tooth for almost all my table saw cuts with good success.
> You should have more than one type of blade!
> http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/12395


I had no idea. I assumed the more teeth, the cleaner the cut. I mimicked what was on it. I'll look into more blades. Everything you outlined stands to reasoning. Thanks everyone!


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Update:

Using your photo's David, I went to my local scrap steel dealer and got a 12"X12" square of 20 gauge. I cut a 3" wide length and trimmed that down to 4" long. Clamped it in a vise and gave it 1/2" borders to create a 'chute' profile. Welded, and in place, it works pretty good. I'm no longer throwing sawdust out the front where the wheel to adjust blade height is. I kind of had to guess at sizes with your pictures and overall, it was a success. I haven't painted it. I am thinking it won't be seen and I don't think I have to worry about corrosion. If I know me however, it will wear on me until I do it.

I am tempted to make something but am a bit apprehensive. I am watching all the "table saw safety" videos I can find. I think I need to get a miter gauge and then make a cross cut sled. 

Everyone's input has been very appreciated. Looking forward to reading all the posts here for tips and tricks. 

Regards everyone.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

woodnthings said:


> Hang on there Jim. An 80 tooth blade is meant primarily for crosscutting thin plywood with veneers to avoid tear out. Read the box it came in and you'll see pretty much it's a limited use blade.
> 
> A better blade with more versatility would be a 50 tooth combination blade which can be used for ripping as well as crosscutting. You may find that for ripping 2" stock a 24 tooth blade will heat up less and have a more aggressive feed rate. I have used a 40 tooth for almost all my table saw cuts with good success.
> You should have more than one type of blade!
> http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/12395


Got a 50 tooth blade yesterday. What a difference. Thanks for pointing this out to me. The included link is great too. Ton of information.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Always glad to help. Those old 66's are great machines but not so great at dust control. Good workhorses, though!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I haven't read all the posts but....*



jimsryker said:


> Got a 50 tooth blade yesterday. What a difference. Thanks for pointing this out to me. The included link is great too. Ton of information.


I assume you are jusr starting out with the table saw....?

Here's some tips I can offer after about 50 years using one. Always use straight and flat boards against the fence and on the table so they form a 90 degree corner at that intersection. Why? You don't want the board to shift or twist while the saw is cutting.... because now the plane of the blade and the plane of the fence may not be parallel. So what? It will wedge the blade and stall the motor or worst case jam and kickback at you.
Been there done that myself. 

Next possibility is that as you are making this perfectly great cut through this perfectly straight and flat piece of wood all of a sudden the wood closes up on the back side of the blade and grabs it and shoots it over the top back at you. Why did this happen? Wood has internal stresses inside and they can't be forecast ahead of time. So what is the solution? A splitter or riving knife is common safety equipment on the older and ,most newer table saws. This plate of metal fits inside the kerf you make as you go along and will prevent the wood from closing up on the blade, but it may pinch on the splitter, a much better event safetywise.

Those are the two biggest issues.

The next issues involve supporting your work, large plywood panels and long planks require preplanning along with support rollers, stands or table surrounds. 
A table surround is best and the rollers are the worst but better than nothing. Helpers need to know how to help. Most don't and may cause you more grief than just working alone. :yes:


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Greetings.

No posts here from me since back in July. I have been thinking a lot about my saw, my garage, my tools and what is needed. I have been watching a lot of YouTube vids and essentially finding myself intimidated. I have a small 2 car garge for a shop and I still park my 2500 HD Crew Cab in it. I have been finding clever ways to shuffle items around but I know I need more shop tools if I want to tackle any of the projects that catch my eye. When needed, I back the truck out and make do. After clean up, it all goes back to the sides and in comes the truck.

I thought to PM some who helped so much at the beginning of this thread, but felt it would not be fair. Maybe even better if I post it to all. You never know where the next great idea will come from. At this point, I think my most pressing question is.... well, actually, the most pressing question is, how do I overcome this intimidation to the point of inactivity? I have no real training other than a wood working class at a local college about 10 years ago. I think about things I want to build but never act on it.

Anyhow... A router table seems to be mentioned almost more than a TS. I was wondering if I should go with the added one to the TS or build a free standing one. I have seen where a free standing is the better choice, but I do have the space concerns. Maybe I'm answering my own question? I just thought maybe enough would sound off here to sway me. Should I make a cross cut sled first instead? I did get an INCA Miter Gauge. Is that enough? I don't have a band saw yet and my drill press is a table top model from Delta. It works but not real easy to work with. I do have a compound miter saw. 

I realize this is real vague and who could know my exact situation but this "out reach" has been brewing for a while now and I'm hoping I can jump start my creativity. I want to make my own cabinet doors and drawers for my kitchen and get rid of the raised panels but I wonder if I "don't know what I'm in for" if I were to try. It's stuff like that that keeps me standing here and not doing anything.

Thanks for any replys.

Jim


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jimsryker said:


> After clean up, it all goes back to the sides and in comes the truck.
> 
> ...I wonder if *I "don't know what I'm in for" if I were to try*. It's stuff like that that keeps me standing here and not doing anything.
> 
> ...


Hey Jim - Trucks can stay outside just fine (mine does). And, ya' just gotta' get out there and try something! :thumbsup:

I guess I started my woodworking projects to get me to other projects. The very first thing of any substance I built was a darkroom cabinet for my enlarger and trays of solutions - 1973 if I remember correctly. From there it was doing upkeep on my house after moving out of my parent's house. Then I started visualizing things I could make that weren't repairs around the house - crafts and knick knacks sort of stuff.

Right now, with the huge push I have to get into building acoustic guitars, I'm in my shop every night and all day on Saturday. Often I make it out there between the morning service and evening service for a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with - post pictures!

David


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

jimsryker said:


> At this point, I think my most pressing question is.... well, actually, the most pressing question is, how do I overcome this intimidation to the point of inactivity? I have no real training other than a wood working class at a local college about 10 years ago. I think about things I want to build but never act on it.


Go the Nike route and just do it. Dont think, get out there and build, make a box, a chair, a table, whatever, just go build something. Dont think about it, dont worry that you dont know what youre doing, just go build.

Well what are you still doing here? Shoo, dont come back without a project!


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Hey Jim - Trucks can stay outside just fine (mine does). And, ya' just gotta' get out there and try something! :thumbsup:
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what you come up with - post pictures!
> 
> David


David, so great to hear from you sir! Your help was pivotal in the beginning. I am partial to my truck and the sun here is so intense, that in short order, it would start to show. It's a 2006 but looks like the day I bought it. I must admint though, I have already been thinking about putting it out. 

I did do a project. One that I thought would be easy for me since it appeared to be rather simplistic. Boy was I wrong. I wanted to replicate a product I got at the local World Market. Nothing more that a tripod stand to prop a picture or what have you up. I wanted something larger and better to prop up my iPad for viewing. (Using it now). Plus, my girl uses it for recipe reference in the kitchen. I had no idea how hard the degrees would be and the compound degrees on the front legs. Most of all, drilling the hole for the pivot pin was almost impossible!! :furious: I couldn't think of a way to predrill it or anything. I am planning to make more because friends and family have requested one too so I'm thinking about a jig?? Something that allows me to line all the parts up and drill a single hole. Even that has stimied me. I think but don't do. Christine is reluctant to allow me shop time if she is here so it's hard to make it happen. 

I will however. Just talking here is helping. I'm not feeling quite as reluctant now. Plus I'm running out of time for Christmas. :yes:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

That stand looks nice, nothing wrong with that at all. If you're planning to make multiples of something then get accustomed to building fixtures, jigs, and templates for repeatability and to make better use of your time. 

I made a stand for my iPhones but don't plan on making more, thought about doing one for my iPad, though.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> I made a stand for my iPhones but don't plan on making more, thought about doing one for my iPad, though.


Oh my gosh! At first I thought you may have included a mistaken link, but was astonished when I got to the end. That was truly amazing!! Such detail and it had to be SMALL! I thought it was a full size instrument in the beginning. That's woodworking on a a whole other level sir. :notworthy:

Well, I have a long way to go. I need some shop tools and jigs and whatnot. I want to make an air cleaner and crosscut sled and a sled for angled cuts on a TS, etc.... That alone would be good experience. Thanks again!

Jim


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

jimsryker said:


> Oh my gosh! At first I thought you may have included a mistaken link, but was astonished when I got to the end. That was truly amazing!! Such detail and it had to be SMALL! I thought it was a full size instrument in the beginning. That's woodworking on a a whole other level sir. :notworthy:
> 
> Well, I have a long way to go. I need some shop tools and jigs and whatnot. I want to make an air cleaner and crosscut sled and a sled for angled cuts on a TS, etc.... That alone would be good experience. Thanks again!
> 
> Jim


Thanks, Jim! It was a fun little project. And as far as the tools you need, I stand by the practice that 'any job requiring a new tool is a good job' - right? 

I made a shop air cleaner out of a box fan and 20"x20" filter, total spend was about $30 and it works pretty good. I'll post a couple of photos if you want.

Right now I'm doing my best to justify a CNC router machine but I'll probably end up building my own before it's all said and done.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

difalkner said:


> Thanks, Jim! It was a fun little project. And as far as the tools you need, I stand by the practice that 'any job requiring a new tool is a good job' - right?
> 
> I made a shop air cleaner out of a box fan and 20"x20" filter, total spend was about $30 and it works pretty good. I'll post a couple of photos if you want.
> 
> Right now I'm doing my best to justify a CNC router machine but I'll probably end up building my own before it's all said and done.



David, I recall my wood shop teacher saying the same thing about tools. I have been living by that for some time now. Haha. It's the excuse to get the best tool you can afford. I did a total rebuild of my home's central air system myself and I kept the squirrel cage fan from the air handler. I am thinking of something that would utilize that. I like the one I watched built by Frank Howard on YouTube. It's design sounds similar to yours and it rolls around to move where its needed most. If I recall correctly, he has just recently posted about making a CNC machine. You might find it helpful. His video production skills alone are reason to watch. I would love to see a link or photo's to your air filtering system. I can imagine the quality if your phone stand is any indication! :thumbsup:

Here are a couple links for anyone catching this conversation:

CNC build. Three part so far: http://youtu.be/XNvoFTV5tIE

Shop Air Handler: http://youtu.be/RKQA-CHNwdM


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

David, I'm the biggest dope! Haha. I was watching the third installment of Frank Howard's CNC build and saw him cut some MDF with his table saw. I noted the self made riving knife on his TS and it hit me that it was on this thread that you recommended that very video. You obviously know all about him. Forgive my forgetfulness. LOL! At any rate, still good links for others to take advantage of. :wallbash:


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

:laughing: Yep, I keep up with Frank Howarth's work. His woodworking skills are good, his tools better, and his videos are excellent.

I have a huge 220v squirrel cage blower, never used, that I may utilize at some point, as well. I don't generate a lot of dust because I catch most of it at the source before it goes airborne. The one exception is my table saw and the PM66 is difficult to catch everything without some serious volume on the DC side.

My shop air cleaner is a bit different than Frank's because I don't have the floor space he does. But mine does work, I can easily reach the switch (3 speeds), it's located right above the outboard side of my table saw, and it swivels if I need to redirect the air, so here are a few photos (Ferrari Red trim, of course) -


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Nice Filter*

How high is your ceiling? I think mine would be too low. I went out and checked my clearance and I'd bump into it if I wasn't paying attention. I just had a contractor visit today to price check on some demo work. If I grade it flat, I could put in a small shop of about 300 sq ft. of floor space. Even in a worst case scenario, it would be a great addition. Moving all my equip out to that would also free up garage space.

Thanks again for the replies and ideas. Regards to all.


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Ceiling is about 8' 4" but it's mounted right at the outfeed of my table saw so no danger of bumping my head. Unless I'm also bumping my knees and feet on the saw...


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## difalkner (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey Jim - I am working on several projects today and as I stood at the outfeed side of my table just realized I had never measured the height to the bottom of my fan. I looked up and realized I'd never hit my head on it - clearance is 6'4" and I'm 5'10". Granted, you'll have more clearance with one that is flatter against the ceiling with a unit like Jet or similar but just thought I'd measure mine to see.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Good morning! Turns out my ceiling is the same height. The table I have is on casters and is off to the side wall currently. I've enjoyed the ability to move it where needed and while it's always just about the same spot, I've do like the mobility. I'm 6'4" so i'd whack it everytime! :wallbash:

I will work to keep things small as possible and also try to get a shop built. Happy Holidays!


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

I've been trying to dial in the saw. I want to make certain the blade is parallel to the miter slot. I tried to cut some hard maple to make some sort of miter that I could mount my dial indicator to but I'll have to keep trying that. I could buy one, but this is good practice.

I've looked at the arbor and there appears to be about .003 of play in it. The blade has about .004. My setup is Starrett. Magnetic base and dial, so I think it's fairly accurate. Does anyone feel this would require a new arbor assembly from powermatic? I'm thinking yes, but I thought to ask. You never know, this could be expected in a saw this old.

Regards


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

I chucked a honeing stone to my router in an attempt to true up the arbor flange. For lack of a better description, there appeared to be several impacts to the flange and I realized this could be the source of the approx. .005" of change I see when rotating the blade. I removed the blade and ever so slightly pivoted the angle of the arbor and before I could even begin, the sound of the saw changed in pitch, appeared to cut it's speed in half and then shut down. Some smoke began to come out of the chassis.

I pulled the side housing containing the two capacitors and found the foam padding in the space to have a small "burn" mark?? Like it was melted and there was an odor that matched what I was smelling. I can't honestly say that it was tied to my event but strongly suspect it. Everything was cool to the touch and I would think it would have some tempreture to it if it got hot enough to melt that foam. From what I can determine, the start capacitor and the run capacitor can stay on similtaneously and produce similar symptoms. Increased amp draw which will trip the breakers which was the root cause of the saw stopping. There is an internal centrifugal switch that can stick and not 'cut out' the start capacitor. When I turn it on now, it does not sound good. Could also be bearings, but they tend to go bad over time. Not a sudden "bang" and then failure. I've searched the net and this forum for any similar stories but not having much luck. I'm hoping someone can chime in here with an experience like this that can shed some light. I have located a local Baldor Reliant repair shop about an hour drive away. I want to try new capacitors but they seem to be about $52 and $54 respectively. I'm going to test them and see if they fall within the operating parameters. Arbot spins freely and has no movement. Any links to forum threads or YouTube vids or anything would be appreciated greatly. Thanks in advance.


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## Bob Vaughan (Oct 29, 2008)

Caps go bad and there's no warning. To give a very rough test to a cap is to but a meter on it. Remove the cap is easiest, but all you really need to do is to remove the wires from one terminal. Put a screwdriver across the terminals to short off any charge that might be in the cap. Put the meter's probes on the terminals with the resistance setting (ohms). A good capacitor will cause the needle to jump to the right than settle back toward zero and stop above the zero mark. If the needle stays all the way to the right, the cap is bad.

What the needle will do with a good capacitor.


If the capacitor is good, then get into the motor and clean the contacts if the windings aren't burned.
Baldor motor tear down

About blade runout: Assuming a blade's plate is perfectly flat is a flawed assumption on many levels. Only a dial indicator on the inside blade flange will give you a test of a true or not true running saw. Often dings on the outer perimeter can cause a fit, so check that area besides the middle. If the arbor is good, it can be removed, chucked in a metal lathe, and a 30 second light kissing pass will true things up again.


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

Thanks Bob. I've been planning to get out to the saw as time permits and test both the start and run caps. I verified my meter can test capacitors so I'll test them and see if I get the correct values back. I'll post here in case it helps anyone. 

Thanks.

Jim


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## jimsryker (Apr 18, 2015)

I have pulled both the start and run caps from the motor. Much easier to work with now. The run cap is shot, showing a slight bulge both top and bottom. When testing, the cap test and the continuity test both show open. Zero microfarads. The start cap is showing anywhere from 15 to approx 5 microfarads when it should return results between 216-259 MFD. Contacted an electric motor repair shop with links to Baldor. Had to submit a "spec" number to make certain I get the correct items. This is an FYI to those who may follow with similar problems. Fingers crossed this fixes things. . All this holiday time off and I can't use the saw!


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