# Staining red oak black ?



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm using general finishes water base black stain. I first raised the grain by wetting the wood and sanding it down using 180 then 220. I then sprayed
Two coats of stain then I sprayed a coat of sanding sealer. After the sealer dried I sanded using 400 grit. The problem I'm having is after sanding I'm getting very small rub thru marks on the grain making bare wood spots So not sure if I did not sand good enough after the grain raising or did not use the right grit? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

I never wet the wood to raise the grain. On hard dark colors such as black dye or vinyl I will apply 2 coats of sealer before sanding. This assures me a light sanding without hitting the color. 

You will need to try and touch it up and apply more sealer if possible.


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

I can give the two coats a try. I did try an piece with no grain raising at at and it was worse. These are all just scrap pieces for now. Anyone else?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Try a black alcohol (methanol) based aniline dye. You can mix for intensity. It won't raise the grain. It's sometimes called "lampblack".










 







.


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

Like transtint mixed with denatured alcohol? Do I use this alone ? Then sanding sealer or the dye then the black stain on top of the dye?


----------



## TylerJones (Dec 4, 2011)

Cabinetman's method works, though I don't love the black that the aniline dyes give. I typically raise the grain twice, but sand lightly across the grain to sever the wood fibers you just raised then sand with the grain. Then if I'm staining not chemical ebonizing I mix GF black waterbased with some india ink. Usually one coat of this is enough. Then apply topcoat, lightly sand in between as normal. If you have raised the grain and sanded it down twice there should be no need for sanding hard enough to rub through.


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

I have seen that method of adding Indian in to the stain. How much do you add or what ratio?


----------



## TylerJones (Dec 4, 2011)

a couple of ounces to the quart should be plenty. Differs by species.


----------



## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

good to see somene besides me and younger, knows how to properly removed rasied grain or even bother, good post Tyler!!


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

We dont raise the grain at all with water...


----------



## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> We dont raise the grain at all with water...


are you applying water based dyes? what wood is this please? thnx


----------



## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Wood is maple and its actual stain. Our suppliers at Chemcraft, ML Campbell and S&W have not required any sanding on their dyes...Stain is Old Masters spanish oak

Sorry that table was birch not maple. The Yin-Yang was maple


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Rebelwork said:


> We dont raise the grain at all with water...


+1. :yes:










 







.


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

So was at the store and picked up some black transtint dye. I decided to mix it with denatured alcohol to keep the grain from raising. After tring different ratios of dye to alcohol I was not satisfied with the clor. It did however not raise the grain. I also was experimenting with just spraying a coat of stain on the raw wood letting it dry then sanding it with 400 To knock down the grain that was raised. Then I sprayed anothere coat of stain. So far it's nice a smooth after the second coat and there doesn't seem to be any grain raising. So dou you all think I should give it a coat or two of sanding sealer? or just start the top coats of enduro-var? The guy at the woodworking store today said he always used sanding sealer first then stain? Is this the right way ?


----------



## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Rebelwork said:


> Wood is maple and its actual stain. Our suppliers at Chemcraft, ML Campbell and S&W have not required any sanding on their dyes...Stain is Old Masters spanish oak
> 
> Sorry that table was birch not maple. The Yin-Yang was maple


OK, makes perfect sense, i rarely raise the grain of close pored woods, on the other-hand i almost always raise the grain of open pored woods. If SW dyes, they are quick dry types, what i normally use is aqueous dyes, seldom alcohols and rarer yet oil types. On veneers it is not as necessary as with hardwoods, especially if heating your stain to 100 degrees or so. if cold applied, it depends on the wood itself, since i always make samples it is then i determine what to do and how. 

Others may use alcohol dyes which cause little to any grain raising and that's fine, but i want to make sure i get the best penetration and color i can so i continue with aqueous dyes still. For me it's not just a preference, it is plain to see when side by side which gives the better results. In factory use, i can understand the NGR/NFR types being used to uniform the differing wood colors, have done it plenty myself, but in custom work, as to my former clientele? nope. 

Good looking table guys :yes:


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

Bvh56 said:


> I'm using general finishes water base black stain. I first raised the grain by wetting the wood and sanding it down using 180 then 220. I then sprayed
> Two coats of stain then I sprayed a coat of sanding sealer. After the sealer dried I sanded using 400 grit. The problem I'm having is after sanding I'm getting very small rub thru marks on the grain making bare wood spots So not sure if I did not sand good enough after the grain raising or did not use the right grit? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Wanted to revive this thread because I'm still having this problem. My procedure was this. Raised grain sanded with 180 raise grain once more sand with 180 , spray two coats of stain, spray two coats of sanding sealer then very lightly sand with 400. I'm still getting rub through marks. Can I spray over the sanding sealer with stain again ? Is sanding even necessary after applying sealer? Or can I just go on and spray my first coat of clear poly? I'm stumped


----------



## TylerJones (Dec 4, 2011)

Here's what I would do: sand with 220, raise the grain knock down with 220, raise the grain again, knock down with 220, stain. Then I would go strait to a topcoat. I would lightly sand that topcoat with my paper wrapped around a felt block, then coat again. There is no reason for you to use sanding sealer. Go straight for the thicker topcoat and you shouldn't rub through. Sand really light after that first coat, wait till the second to really flatten everything.


----------



## chemmy (Dec 13, 2011)

Bvh56 said:


> Wanted to revive this thread because I'm still having this problem. My procedure was this. Raised grain sanded with 180 raise grain once more sand with 180 , spray two coats of stain, spray two coats of sanding sealer then very lightly sand with 400. I'm still getting rub through marks. Can I spray over the sanding sealer with stain again ? Is sanding even necessary after applying sealer? Or can I just go on and spray my first coat of clear poly? I'm stumped


Another reason i don't like surface quick dry dyes, if you use a water dye it will penetrate deeper, especially if you heat it to 100 degrees or so, if you use a surfactant, even more so or a slow dry solvent blended in like diacetone alcohol. 

But first with the grain raising, Oak and other hardwoods are notorious for raised grain an old trick used by gun-stock makers is/was to take a piece of steel wool [3/0] and find out which way the fibers were running and then pull the wool against the pointed ends sticking up of the grain which would then catch them, pull them up and remove them, permanently!! 

I have never had to raise oak or walnut or mahogany more than once. After pulling the raised fibers out, then sand biasly to the wood by 45 degrees with a paper that is one grit finer than what you originally sanded with. when done then go lightly with the grain with your 220 and to remove the finer 320 scratches, which really doesn't matter anyway seeing as the dye, unlike pigment stains, doesn't show up scratches to begin with, and on top of that your going "black!"

If you want to seal it, then use zinsser seal coat shellac one coat, sand very lightly when dry with 320 paper then wipe off dust or blow off and apply your water poly, if you don't, and cut through the shellac, then the black dye may easily bleed into the poly OK? After you have built a couple of coats of poly over top of the shellac, then you can sand any tiny amount of any leftover raised grain flat without fear of going through to your dyed wood as others have already said. 

If this does not do it, i have no more suggestions, except send it to me and i'll do it, lol.[joke]


----------



## H. A. S. (Sep 23, 2010)

TylerJones said:


> Cabinetman's method works, though I don't love the black that the aniline dyes give. I typically raise the grain twice, but sand lightly across the grain to sever the wood fibers you just raised then sand with the grain. Then if I'm staining not chemical ebonizing I mix GF black waterbased with some india ink. Usually one coat of this is enough. Then apply topcoat, lightly sand in between as normal. If you have raised the grain and sanded it down twice there should be no need for sanding hard enough to rub through.



I haven't done a ton of black pieces, but that's the best method, IMO.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bvh56 (Nov 8, 2011)

Well what I ended up doing was spraying two coats of sealer lightly sand with a the gray 3m scuff pad then spray a coat of the clear poly wait to get tacky then spray again let that dry and scuff with 3m pad again. Spray another coat. It turned out pretty good. Thinking I might spray one more coat. Like I said the dye I used didn't come close to the black I wanted. I also added black Indian ink to the general finish WB black. I picked up this trick from another forum. But I do appreciate the help from you guys.thanks


----------



## Midlandbob (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm surprised with the red oak than I didn't see an iron stain. I've had good success putting steel wool in a quart of vinegar over night. The next day the resulting solution wiped on the oak will turn it a dark purple/ black. Then the old Spanish a black stain makes a good black. 
Any finish you like goes on top as a clear coat or glaze.


----------

