# Dovetail size and angle



## crapenterallday (Mar 23, 2008)

How do you know which bit is best for a project? Is there a standard for drawers? Does the needed strength of the joint matter? I want learn dovetails but dont know where to start. I really like the looks of dovetail splines, could you use a standard table saw spline jig on a router table for them?


----------



## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Interesting question! A dovetail spline...on a router table. Well I think you`re talking about a table saw opperation or maneuver... for cross splines on a mitered edge. If this is what you`re talking about...the spline would be the shape of half a bowtie? I know that has been done. It`s not a true dovetail joint!


----------



## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

I waited 2 days for someone else to respond carpenter because i am not the resident expert on doevtails. It looks like your stuck with me and pianoman for now.  

This is a wide open topic, any apsect of every question you asked all by themselves, individually are very subjective, and I won't try to cover everything that pops into my little head here but I'll try to give you enough info so you can feel like you can make some semi-informed choices and decisions. 



crapenterallday said:


> How do you know which bit is best for a project?


Alot of it is aesthetics. small projects generally call for small joinery. Degree of angle is not as critical for function in general as is the form. In most applications, a 7° bit will be nearly as strong as an 18° bit, and that seems tragically wrong I know, but well executed dovetails are inherently strong no matter the angle chosen. 



crapenterallday said:


> Is there a standard for drawers?


If you mean is there a standard bit angle for use on drawers there may be, but if so I don't know what it is. As you may know, there are 2 basic types of traditional dovetails joints. _through_ and _half blind_ or _stopped_ as they are sometimes called. The "standard" for drawers are the half blind variety because you do not see the end grain of the tails. Proper use of dovetails in a drawer will have the end grain of the tails facing forward because if you orient the pins forward - toward the drawer fron, you do not capitalize on the benefits of inherent strength of the dovetail joint, which is whole the purpose for using a doveytail joint in a drawer anyway. Half blind DTs are not selected for aesthetics. 

Through dovetails are often chosen for drawers having no fronts, and they can look quite beautiful. This is a choice for function and form of course. Again, always orient the tails face-forward. Some craftsman *do* choose to face the pins forward because they like that look better, and in fact I do like that look the best as well. But if you want to get the max function will choose tail-forward orientation. The drawer will probably never fail if glued propery and pins forward, so it's a choice of preference and no right or wrong really.



crapenterallday said:


> Does the needed strength of the joint matter?


 I think we just answered this too.



crapenterallday said:


> I want learn dovetails but dont know where to start.


 If you are in this for a hobby, i always suggest not even buying a jig until you get at least a little proficient with cutting them by hand. This is always a hotly debated subject and i am just giving my opinion here. Just this past Friday, my wife was looking at a box I made for my dad some 15 years ago that had large dovetails for joinery. She asked me "did you make these with the Leigh that got stolen from you?" I had to hold the box in my hand and study it to answer. Then it came back to me, that box was one of the first where I had started to become quite proficient at cutting them by hand. As I looked at those joints, I couldn't help but be a little puffed up at how nice they were and how tight they had stayed after all these years. there were some little lines from the wood having shrank over the years but they nice. That same feeling of accomplishment, "No baby, i cut those by hand." cannot be gotten if I had answered "Yes those were cut with a jig and router.

Nothing wrong with jigs and routers. But when a beginner is starting out I always try to get them to avoid jigs and give the handcut a try. There are many good books and even online articles about the subject. Probably a youtube video as well. Maybe many. Give them a try if you want. If not, get a jig. 



crapenterallday said:


> I really like the looks of dovetail splines, could you use a standard table saw spline jig on a router table for them?


Yes there are jigs you can make to cut these on your table saw, your router, and several combos in between. You can get a two-bit combination for your router that will make bowties and you can rip them into splines. These splines will not be as strong as traditional DTs but they look nice. The spline joints that result from using the jig I sell are much stronger when excecuted properly because of the 1° taper, but you can make corner splines that look as good as mine of you want to make your own shomade jigs, they just won't be nearly as strong. 
If you wanted to invest the time, you could probably make all three of my jigs in the shop too, but you'll need plenty of spare time and patience. 



pianoman said:


> It`s not a true dovetail joint!


 Dovetail splines are a class unto themselves and not meant to compete with traditional dovetails. I love traditional dovetails as well. But I like to have as many tools in my boz as possible. 

Look at the jewely box below and try to imagine traditional through dovetails on it. I don't think the corners would have looked nearly as good using traditinal DTs. Personal preference I guess. The below jewelry box was not made using my jig, but with traditional splines cut and inserted using a tablesaw/shopmade router jig combo constructed by the craftsman credited below the picture.








This box was made by David Lewellyn of West Creek Studio


----------



## Joe Lyddon (Mar 13, 2007)

It seems like I remember that one angle was better for soft woods and another better for hard woods... Don't remember which was which... and really don't care.

I agree with TT in that any Dovetail, properly done, is good and strong, beautiful, and there is nothing to worry about.

So, I don't worry about it...  :laughing: :thumbsup:


----------



## pianoman (Jan 16, 2008)

Texas timber, Thank you for that post! I agree with you 100 percent. The skill it takes to accurately mark a line and chissel to it ...is an experience every woodworker should treasure and master! Rick


----------



## crapenterallday (Mar 23, 2008)

I found an old issue of shopnotes at my parents house over the weekend. It had an interesting article on hand cut dovetails in it. The author said that although the angle doesnt matter, traditionally a ratio of 8:1 (7.15*) is used for hardwoods and a ratio of 6:1(9.96*) is used for soft woods. He also stated that he always makes the pins the same size regardless of the tail size. I think I'll have to take everyones advice and start with cutting them by hand. Sounds challenging and fun!:icon_biggrin:


----------



## SeanMac (May 6, 2013)

Hi fellas, first posting here. Love joinery of all types and the advice so far is great. Traditionally, softwood dovetail angle is 8 degrees (for obvious purpose) and hard wood 6 degrees. As noted, precision cuts are strong no matter the angle. There nothing quite like mastering the handcut dovetail, best of luck!


----------



## Kelvartis (Apr 2, 2013)

Great replies guys. Time to bust out some MDF (it's cheap) and make some practice pieces, get some hands on learning.


----------



## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

Wow,,,,,resureccting a 5 year old thread......


----------

