# 7 1/4 SCMS or 10 non-slider



## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Randomly popped into my head, but im wondering, between a 7.25 inch sliding miter saw and a 10 inch non-slider, which would you rather have? 

Now, im not planning a purchase, and im not trying to compare any one tool to another, im just wondering given 2 accurate, well made tools, differing only in the blade size and movement style, which would you choose? Personally, i think id go for the 7.25 slider. Sure, it cant chop down a 4x4, and a 7.25 saw is likely to be less powerful than a 10 inch miter. My reasoning would be that the majority of the stock i work with is less than 2 inches thick, well inside a 7.25 blades cutting capacity, and id rather have the wider crosscut capabilities over the cutting height. Plus, a good 7.25" blade is a lot cheaper than a good 10" blade, and a 7.25 slider is also usually cheaper than any 10 inch saw

So, keeping to either a 10 inch non-slide or 7.25 slider, which of those 2 would you want? Pretend 10 inch sliders and 12 inch saws dont exitst here


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*that small?..*

So I did find one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Sli...385070?hash=item2eeb12fa2e:g:pN8AAOSwFqJWp-24

It might be just fine, better than a 10" chop....


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Craftsman made one about that size many years ago. It may have been 8 inch. Actually was a different design than the standard sliding miter saw. It had no "compound" capabilities.

That said it was far too small. I got rid of it and went to my current 10".

George


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

If the capacity of the non-slider works, then non-slide for sure. If you've used both, you know that adding a slide mechanism introduces inherent inaccuracy.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

A 1/4" wrench is too small for 3/8" nut, but it works perfectly on a 1/4" nut.

A 7 1/4" saw works just fine to cut material thin enough for the capacity it will handle. If you are doing a lot of trim on a job site they are lighter to handle than most 10" models and have a greater cutting width than a 10" chop saw.

They are not general a general purpose shop saw but certainly have their advantages in situations they are designed to handle, particularly if you prefer to size the tool to the job.

As far as accuracy goes you get what you pay for.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

NickDIY said:


> If the capacity of the non-slider works, then non-slide for sure. If you've used both, you know that adding a slide mechanism introduces inherent inaccuracy.


?????????

How do you know that it introduces inaccuracy? I have never had that problem with my Craftsman and have never read of anyone on this forum complaining of such.

George


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

My Porter cable 12" non sliding saw is more accurate than my Bosch 12" SMS.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey, it only took 6 posts to hit an argument! That's gotta be a new record


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## Justin Huisenga (Apr 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> ?????????
> 
> How do you know that it introduces inaccuracy? I have never had that problem with my Craftsman and have never read of anyone on this forum complaining of such.
> 
> George


There will always be some amount of flex with a sliding saw at the bearings the rails travel through or in the head of the saw based on the way it is attached. Just the nature of the tool and a common complaint of both carpenters and woodworkers. It's why a prefer to use fixed miter saws for running trim whenever possible. You can compensate for the deflection with good technique but it is still possible.

You can check for it with a magnetic base dial indicator on a metal plate clamped to the saw bed. The attached pic is of canceling out blade to arbor runout but the setup to measure the flex is similar. Load, set, and zero the indicator with the saw as far in towards the fence as it goes and push laterally on the head. Then slide it out on the plate to the furthest extension of the saw and repeat. The difference between the two numbers read off the dial is the total deflection.


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

I primarily use the miter saw for moldings. A 10" blade would be the absolute minimum for me because I've had times where I wished I had a 12". 7 1/4" would be too small to meet my needs. So I would opt for the non-sliding 10".


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Toolman50 said:


> I primarily use the miter saw for moldings. A 10" blade would be the absolute minimum for me because I've had times where I wished I had a 12". 7 1/4" would be too small to meet my needs. So I would opt for the non-sliding 10".


Mind if i ask you to elaborate on why you need the extra capacity? Just idle curiosity, i never figured cutting molding would tax the cut depth of a 10 inch saw.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> Mind if i ask you to elaborate on why you need the extra capacity? Just idle curiosity, i never figured cutting molding would tax the cut depth of a 10 inch saw.


Wondering about the same thing myself, looking around me there is no trim that a 7 1/4" blade would not handle, including a fireplace mantel I built.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

Justin Huisenga said:


> There will always be some amount of flex with a sliding saw at the bearings the rails travel through or in the head of the saw based on the way it is attached. Just the nature of the tool and a common complaint of both carpenters and woodworkers. It's why a prefer to use fixed miter saws for running trim whenever possible. You can compensate for the deflection with good technique but it is still possible.
> 
> You can check for it with a magnetic base dial indicator on a metal plate clamped to the saw bed. The attached pic is of canceling out blade to arbor runout but the setup to measure the flex is similar. Load, set, and zero the indicator with the saw as far in towards the fence as it goes and push laterally on the head. Then slide it out on the plate to the furthest extension of the saw and repeat. The difference between the two numbers read off the dial is the total deflection.


When you have to go to all of that trouble you have gone far beyond the accuracy needed for woodworking.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*he is measuring "run out"*



GeorgeC said:


> When you have to go to all of that trouble you have gone far beyond the accuracy needed for woodworking.
> 
> George


It's actually not that much trouble to measure as he has suggested, but it may be more trouble than some, like yourself, are willing to go. Some woodworkers demand a lot of accuracy, like a finish carpenter setting stained crown in high end houses, no gap filling allowed, no paint. 

The simple explanation is .... the greater the number of moving parts, the more potential for the tolerances to stack up, degrading accuracy. The longer the travel of the moving parts, the great the potential for accuracy losses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_tolerance


Take the "beloved" Craftsman Radial Arm Saw which has a 24" arm, a carriage that rolls on rails attached to the arm, a rotating column, a pivoting saw carriage head and a tilting mechanism on the saw carriage ALL of which can add variations in the accuracy of the saw.
That's why unless your saw is properly adjusted and "tight" you won't have good results and you will label the saw as "inaccurate" and why some like myself, set the arm at 90 degrees and leave it.

A chop saw has only a single pivot, a sliding miter saw has the rail bearings and a pivot for making bevels, so more parts have "potentially" less accuracy. Now add blade deflection and operator "input" an you may have less than accurate results. So, measuring "run out" isn't a bad idea, especially if your job demands the most accuracy possible. This is also why some carpenters use a full kerf blade on the miter saws to reduce blade deflection and why in theory full kerf, smaller diameter blade may have very good accuracy.


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## hwebb99 (Nov 27, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> When you have to go to all of that trouble you have gone far beyond the accuracy needed for woodworking. George


 We said a non slider was more accurate than a SMS. Nobody said a SMS wasn't good enough for woodworking.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*test your saws's accuracy*

Start with a parallel edged board. Mark a 90 degree line on the face and make a cut across as close to the line as possible. Take the cut off and flip it over and mate it to the previous cut. If the edges aren't parallel, the saw is "off".

The correction must be made to 1/2 the difference in the angle, so go slowly with any adjustments.

I had to make "off 90" degree cuts on my RAS, so instead of moving the arm, which I never do, I wedged the work on the farthest side. This creates an angle on the cut path, I just needed to know how much. It was a matter of experimenting with thinner, then thicker wedges to get the angle just right:


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> When you have to go to all of that trouble you have gone far beyond the accuracy needed for woodworking.
> 
> George


Agree, some wood be better spending their money on some lumber and building something than chasing their tails trying to move that .0001 to get that machine trued up with all those expensive measuring instruments.
In the years that I worked on machinery training apprentices the phrase I dreaded most was, "I tried to fix it and ..............."


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## sanchez (Feb 18, 2010)

I'd pick the 10" non slider. I have had the same Craftsman 10" CMS for years and it does everything I have needed from framing to trimwork.

Since I'm a hobbyist, and I like to keep it simple, I try to only change the table setting, not the head.

I think doing things like cutting crown molding upside down (like you do when you only want to use one angle instead of a compound angle) or mitering 4" tall baseboards would be harder with the smaller blade.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

This all makes for great discussion, but if there was the ultimate saw for everybody all the other manufactures would be out of business, like any tool it depends on what "you" are going to do with it, what "I" do with mine means nothing to you. This is why some people have several flavors of a particular tool, they can pick the best one for the job at hand, while others are happy with one that does everything okay.


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## NickB (Sep 24, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> How do you know that it introduces inaccuracy?


A fair question, which woodnthings summed up well. For me, it's personal experience. I'm a hobbyist, but I've used probably 7 or 8 different CMSs and since I'm a tool fanatic, I probably pay more attention than your average trim carpenter that's used the same saw for 10 years.

My current saw is a 12" Ridgid double bevel slider. Versatile as all hell and can cut just about anything. I _can_ cut "perfect" angles. I can also easily thrown this thing off by over 1/8" on the outer edge if I'm not paying attention. The saw feels tight, but it'll still flex plenty if you let it.

The first saw I owned was the simplest little big box store Delta 10" single bevel non slider. I think I paid $99 for it brand new. There was one hinge. I would really have to try to push it out of alignment. 

So, how do I know? Because of experience, George. A bit of understanding in mechanical engineering tells me why, but the real world use is how I _know_.


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## FrankC (Aug 24, 2012)

The accuracy to within thousands of an inch of a SCMS is really not that important to the customers that buy the saws 10 at a time, only to the guy that buys one every 10 years.

The guy that pays for one in a days work doesn't really care about dead nuts accuracy, because he will lay a carpenters pencil across one end of the bede, lay the trim on top of it and make the cut resulting in a less than 90 degree vertical cut with a sharp point at the top. By pushing the two top points of a butt joint together with such little surface area they are basically force fit and there is no gap and a rub with sandpaper smooths it all out.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*name your "poison"*

When purchasing any tool the major concerns are:
Cost
Weight
Size
Accuracy
Capacity* 
Dependability
Safety
Repairs/warranty

Accuracy means different things to different ways of working. A deck builder/framer won't need the same accuracy as someone building a Grandfather Clock or a scale model of an Excavator. Furniture may also demand a high level of accuracy for perfect joinery.

You can make a less than perfectly accurate saw work well using jigs and stops that provide "consistency" rather than great accuracy, which is similar, just slightly different. Consistency may be more important than hair-line accuracy for most woodworking operations. Once you learn your saws' quirks, you can do pretty much all you want using the same feed pressures, sharp blades and other techniques.

The original question was about capacity*, if I recall. If you pick and choose as in this case, you can have two completely different saws with about the same capacity, except depth of cut. A 7 1/4" blade won't have the same depth of cut as a 10" near the fence, and there's my answer. How much depth of cut do you need?


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

epicfail48 said:


> Mind if i ask you to elaborate on why you need the extra capacity? Just idle curiosity, i never figured cutting molding would tax the cut depth of a 10 inch saw.


Large crown moldings, stacked moldings and 2 X 4 stand-outs all require the full depth cut on a 10" blade. 
I would like a 12" compound miter saw but I can't wear out my old 10" tools.


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## Justin Huisenga (Apr 2, 2011)

GeorgeC said:


> When you have to go to all of that trouble you have gone far beyond the accuracy needed for woodworking.
> 
> George


To a point I agree. Wood is hygroscopic and as such cannot not worked to the tolerance that metal can be. As a finish carpenter I am measuring lengths to the hundredth of an inch not the thousandth. Carpenters and woodworkers may not be measuring to the thousandth but we do work wood to those tolerances. If I have a miter that I see a slight black line in I make adjustments to close it. If I have a piece that sticks a hair past a reveal line I trim it. If I have a stile to rail join that is slightly out of plane I will sand it and flatten it to the touch. Our adjustments are more sight and feel than they are measurement but we do make them. 

Based on my work habits accurate tools are a necessity. I will measure, cut and preassemble and entire house full of window and door casing in one session in front of the saw and at the table. I will cut and machine all the parts for multiple rooms full of wainscot, panels jambs, or columns in one shot. I will cut all the panel moulding for the afore mentioned and preassemble them as well. If my tools are not set up accurately then none of my parts will be precise and I will be wasting a great deal of time trying to salvage the fits. Well setup, accurate tools combined with good systems for accurately measuring gives me the confidence and peace of mind to be able to do this. 

The 12" fixed miter saw that I use primarily is off by .0005 on a five cut before dividing for the cumulative error of the multiple cuts. I have a great deal of practice tuning up miter saws and getting it to these tolerances takes me about 10-15 minutes and a set of decent calipers. It isn't any more difficult to set a saw this tight than it is to set it to .01 off square. 

In that picture I am not checking the deflection in the head I am checking the run out of the blade in relationship to the arbor and adjusting the blade/arbor relationship to minimize or cancel out this runout. Currently the blade/arbor runout on my saw is around .002. To reference many of the cuts I make at my saw I use a ZCI plate and the tighter my plate insert is to the blade the more accurate my reference is. It's one of those things that may save a couple of seconds per cut but if you make a lot of cuts it doesn't take long to equal or exceed the 10 minutes of time it takes to dial out the runout. The setup for this is similar to checking deflection on a scms. The same tools and similar setups are used to check if a scms is dogtracking or to check for a bent blade or arbor.

As to the use of a 12" saw vs a 10", I run them for the ability to cut mouldings in position up to 6 1/2" for base and crown. Very little of the base or crown that I install can be cut like this with a 10" saw. Like Woodnthings said I run standard kerf industrial blades to minimize deflection. These blades are task specific to a miter saw and custom tensioned by the manufacturer for rpm and application. I have a 12" and a 10" scms and I often bring a 10" fixed saw out that I will hand carry from room to room to make length adjustments if I am installing further away from where my cut station is set up.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

So I was at Sears yesterday picking up a new dado stack when I came across this:
Http://m.craftsman.com/craftsman-7-1-4inch-compact-sliding-compound-miter-saw/p-00932285000P

Gotta say, I was rather impressed. Most sliding saws I've seen have 2 rods attached to the blade carriage that move in and out with the motion of the blade carriage. This one, though, had the sliding rods rigidly attached to the base, and the carriage slid on the fixed rods. It seemed pretty much like a mini radial arm saw, and stuck me as a pretty solid little tool. 

Admittedly, the 10 inch slider craftsman makes shares the same design, just scaled up, but honestly I think I'd rather have the smaller one, even with the minimal price difference. I can pick up a fine finish 7 1/4 blade for $20, whereas a comparable 10 inch blade would run me closer to $80, and as I've stated before the 7 inch saw would cut pretty much everything I need to


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*same saw I posted back no. 2 post*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-7...b032da&pid=100011&rk=2&rkt=10&sd=201512385070

$139.99 Free shipping. on Ebay


http://m.craftsman.com/craftsman-7-1-4inch-compact-sliding-compound-miter-saw/p-00932285000P

SM1852RC


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## Burb (Nov 30, 2012)

epicfail48 said:


> So I was at Sears yesterday picking up a new dado stack when I came across this: Http://m.craftsman.com/craftsman-7-1-4inch-compact-sliding-compound-miter-saw/p-00932285000P Gotta say, I was rather impressed. Most sliding saws I've seen have 2 rods attached to the blade carriage that move in and out with the motion of the blade carriage. This one, though, had the sliding rods rigidly attached to the base, and the carriage slid on the fixed rods. It seemed pretty much like a mini radial arm saw, and stuck me as a pretty solid little tool. Admittedly, the 10 inch slider craftsman makes shares the same design, just scaled up, but honestly I think I'd rather have the smaller one, even with the minimal price difference. I can pick up a fine finish 7 1/4 blade for $20, whereas a comparable 10 inch blade would run me closer to $80, and as I've stated before the 7 inch saw would cut pretty much everything I need to


I've got the Craftsman Compact 10" Slider. It's attached to my bench and I really like it. I replaced the original blade with the Diablo 80 tooth and it serves we very well.

Mark


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## Justin Huisenga (Apr 2, 2011)

I've looked at the 7 1/4" saws. The size and weight would be nice for installs and punch out work. 

The problem I see is in the blades. For circular saws the blades are commonplace but with a SCMS you want either a zero or a negative hook to prevent kick back. Based on the way a circular saw cuts you want a positive hook so it pulls itself down to the work piece. On a 7 1/4" saw you are married to either the stock blade or the ones that are designed for the DeWalt saw. You're also stuck with whatever grinds those blades come in. I switch up grinds based on what I'm cutting pretty frequently. TCG for mdf. H-ATB for some of the britte gloss finishes on casework moulding. NF TCG for extruded aluminum kick and accessories on modern work. ATB for everything else.

Look into the 8 1/2" saws. There's a larger selection of available tooling. I'm knocking around adding an 8 1/2" Makita for recuts on taller mouldings. I can get task specific blades from FS Tool, Royce, Popular Tools, or any of the other manufacturers that I run in addition to the more easily available tooling off the shelf.


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## TimeTurnsElastic (May 4, 2015)

Epicfail, I have that Craftsman 7 1/4 SCMS and recommend it wholeheartedly. Besides having the smallest footprint of any miter saw I've ever owned (about the same size as the non slider Ryobi I used to own), it is surprisingly versatile -- at 90 degrees it can crosscut 2x8's with ease, and compounds, 2x6's. My primary usage probably varies from yours as I'm mostly a finish guy. But even with the framing work I do here and there, I'll reach for my C-Man before our 12" DW 9 times out of 10 unless I've gotta cut beams.

Build quality isn't half bad either. Craftsman power tools are obviously hit or miss these days but I'd consider this one a winner. After a few quickie adjustments to square the fence and level the throat place, it makes very accurate, clean cuts for a saw this price. Doesn't hurt I got it for a steal. (On sale during the holidays at Orchard for $64.99, they were sold out and I got a raincheck. Due to a lengthy delay, they ended up kicking me down an extra $10 discount, so out the door, I paid like 60 bucks even). Bottom line, however, is that I like it enough I'd have paid full price.

Now, at work we have two of the older corded 7 1/2 Makita sliders. Because they're on two sets of sliders, cutting capacity is remarkable -- we crosscut 2x12's on those things in a single pass like butter, and I want to say we've even chopped 4x4s. They're hard to find having been discontinued in favor of an 18v version and a corded 8 1/4 (why, I don't have a clue)...and now run upwards of four bills used -- if you can even find one. Now that's far too rich for my blood, but those old Mak 7 1/2's are beasts. If you have the opportunity and $ to swing one, do yourself a favor and go for it.

This has been a long ramble, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are 7 1/4 SCMS's out there that I personally would take over most 10" non sliders in a heartbeat.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

TimeTurnsElastic said:


> Epicfail, I have that Craftsman 7 1/4 SCMS and recommend it wholeheartedly. Besides having the smallest footprint of any miter saw I've ever owned (about the same size as the non slider Ryobi I used to own), it is surprisingly versatile -- at 90 degrees it can crosscut 2x8's with ease, and compounds, 2x6's. My primary usage probably varies from yours as I'm mostly a finish guy. But even with the framing work I do here and there, I'll reach for my C-Man before our 12" DW 9 times out of 10 unless I've gotta cut beams.
> 
> Build quality isn't half bad either. Craftsman power tools are obviously hit or miss these days but I'd consider this one a winner. After a few quickie adjustments to square the fence and level the throat place, it makes very accurate, clean cuts for a saw this price. Doesn't hurt I got it for a steal. (On sale during the holidays at Orchard for $64.99, they were sold out and I got a raincheck. Due to a lengthy delay, they ended up kicking me down an extra $10 discount, so out the door, I paid like 60 bucks even). Bottom line, however, is that I like it enough I'd have paid full price.
> 
> ...


Thanks for typing that out, that's actually fantastic to hear. Its always fun hearing from someone who actually uses the less common tools.

And I don't know about our use being too different. Admittedly at present I o ly use a miter saw for fought sizing of parts, chopping down a 2x4 or whatnot so I can cut to final size on the table saw, but that's only because my current miter saw is a piece of crap. Since bringing this topic up I've actually been severely tempted to pick up the smaller craftsman. It'd be nice to have a tools I could trust to make an accurate crosscut withough having to clear off my table saw and dig out the sled


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