# Setting table saw fence



## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

Right now I have a very modest old Craftsman job site table saw. I set the fence using a steel ruler to equal the distance from blade to fence at the front and back of the blade. I pay no attention at all to what the ruler on the front edge of the saw says and I don't trust the self squaring ability of the fence at all since it can be off by as much as an 1/8 inch when just unlocked and moved and locked again.

Sometime this year I would like to upgrade this saw to maybe the Craftsman 21833 or Ridgid R4512 contractor saw. Adjusting the fence this way seems out of the question since the riving knife on these saws will interfere at the back of the blade. Is the built in ruler and self squaring ability of the fence on these saws up to par so I can just trust what the gauge says without having to use the steel ruler?


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## SeniorSitizen (May 2, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> Right now I have a very modest old Craftsman job site table saw. I set the fence using a steel ruler to equal the distance from blade to fence at the front and back of the blade. I pay no attention at all to what the ruler on the front edge of the saw says and I don't trust the self squaring ability of the fence at all since it can be off by as much as an 1/8 inch when just unlocked and moved and locked again.
> 
> Sometime this year I would like to upgrade this saw to maybe the Craftsman 21833 or Ridgid R4512 contractor saw. Adjusting the fence this way seems out of the question since the riving knife on these saws will interfere at the back of the blade. Is the built in ruler and self squaring ability of the fence on these saws up to par so I can just trust what the gauge says without having to use the steel ruler?


Before getting into the nitty gritty of fence alignment allow me to ask one question . Have you ever read the operators manual of your very modest old Craftsman job site table saw ? Don't be ashamed to answer no and be very proud to answer yes . :laughing: An honest answer is very important in helping you . :thumbsup:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*self squaring fences*

Fences are "meant" to be self squaring...within reason. Some are, some aren't. There is usually an adjustment, in the manual, for aligning and adjusting the fence square to the table and parallel to the blade. The older style Craftsman fences are notorious for being difficult to square to the table without double measuring, front and rear of the table, a PITA.

If you press rearward on the assembly that guides the fence it should square up when you lock it down. If not, there's just too much play in the whole assembly and possibly it can be adjusted out OR it's just not designed and manufactured to close enough standards. 
On my older Craftsman table saw I used thin plastic shims from a margarine lid to decrease the play in the guide. What ever works. Without a picture of the fence, top and underneath with it off the saw it's hard to say what you should do. :blink:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Pictures of what you have would be helpful.








 







.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

I have always individually measured the fence blade relationship. It is a habit born of my first saw with a cheap fence.

Even with the riving knife there must be some way to do this. At my age I will never buy another saw, but if I did I am sure that I would still do the hand measure.

George


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> ........ Is the built in ruler and self squaring ability of the fence on these saws up to par so I can just trust what the gauge says without having to use the steel ruler?


i would be more concerned about the fence maintaining it's alignment relative to the blade than whether the tape on the front rail is usable. i have 2 older emerson bult TSs. a c-man and a ridgid. the ridgid's OEM fence is set dead accurate but the tape is off by 1/16" @ ~ the 32" rip mark, so i use a ruler when setting the fence. my c-man has a delta t2 with a tape that is dead on ba!!s accurate. i still use a tape measure to set the rips. one of the ways to remove errors from WW is to use the *SAME* measuring tape throughout a project, so no minor differences in measurements are introduced into the project. parallelism relative to the blade is more important than the front rail tape, IMHO. and a fence like that on the 21833/4512 should, once set up , hold that alignment very well.

and if you're set on the 21833/4512 as your saw, i humbly suggest the 4512 as the saw to get. it has a 3 year guaranty rather than a 1 year and it can be registered with ridgid's lifetime service agreement (free part and labor for life). also, if a HD can be located that accepts the harbor freight "20% off any single item" coupon, the 4512 can be had for $400. i've used that coupon many times for things like hand held power tools, generators and ridgid TSs. that's a lot of saw for $400. hope this helps.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

SandburRanch said:


> Before getting into the nitty gritty of fence alignment allow me to ask one question . Have you ever read the operators manual of your very modest old Craftsman job site table saw ? Don't be ashamed to answer no and be very proud to answer yes . :laughing: An honest answer is very important in helping you . :thumbsup:


Yes I have actually read it. It was years ago though so please forgive me if I don't recall exactly what it said (EDIT--upon rereading this I realized that came off as snarky. I meant nothing by it, I promise. It's hard to convey tone with just typed words). I've been measuring the blade to fence distance with a tape or steel ruler for so long that I've forgotten any other method I ever knew for aligning the fence, if there was one beyond just unlock, slide, and lock again. I noticed some time ago that this method didn't work so I read to measure off the fence to the same saw tooth, both at the front and at the back (rotating the blade between measurements) to insure accuracy. So that's what I've been doing for a long time now. This is also my first table saw I ever owned, and I've only ever had experience with others just like it, so it's really all I know. Contractor saws are worlds ahead of anything I've ever used, and cabinet saws I can't even imagine.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

I tried pushing in on the front of the fence to make it parallel itself to the blade but it still does not, it's off by a full 1/16 or more when doing this. I can post photos of it later, but for now, the fence is basically just steel bar stock with an all thread rod ran through it from front to back. It has a lever on the front that tightens it to the table. I've had to constantly tighten this over the years and it gets loose again in a little while. The lever handle will eventually become so it is actually pointing back at the front of the saw body if it's not tightened in time, it gets so loose. There are no other adjustments on the fence at all beyond the tape mark indicator. I can adjust it, but I've only tried twice ever. It's too fat to read tightly to any one mark, and it never was accurate within more than 1/16 anyway. I try (in vain) to set my saw for accuracy within 1/64 but I may be asking too much from a saw like this. I even thought about trying better blades than what I've used before (cheap Craftsman blades in two packs for $30). I haven't yet though. I figured maybe the blade was causing issues, leaving excessive marks on wood, and I'm even getting varying width cuts at times. This might be the blade, or even fence movement or flex, right? 

Basically, I want to move forward to a much better saw but I'd like to understand something about how well they work and how they are used before doing so since it appears that I'll need to relearn the use of a table saw one I get one. On those contractor saws, I couldn't see any way to use the steel ruler at the back of the blade to set the fence to blade distance like I could at the front.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Duane Bledsoe said:


> ......... On those contractor saws, I couldn't see any way to use the steel ruler at the back of the blade to set the fence to blade distance like I could at the front.


IMHO, when the fence reliably squares to the fence rail, and the blade is parallel to the miter slot, the need to measure at front and rear of blade becomes unnecessary, once the fence is adjusted parallel to the blade. as i mentioned above, the tape on my t2 is highly accurate and reads to within ~ 1/128" of actual blade to fence distance. while i've no first hand experience with the 4512 or it's c-man cousin, i'd expect it to perform similarly.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*this is all true of a quality fence*



toolguy1000 said:


> IMHO, when the fence reliably squares to the fence rail, and the blade is parallel to the miter slot, the need to measure at front and rear of blade becomes unnecessary, once the fence is adjusted parallel to the blade. as i mentioned above, the tape on my t2 is highly accurate and reads to within ~ 1/128" of actual blade to fence distance. while i've no first hand experience with the 4512 or it's c-man cousin, I'd expect it to perform similarly.


A Biesemeyer, Delta T2, Shop Fox, Unifence will self square to the rail. El Cheapo fences just don't. DAMHIKT :laughing:
I have 2 Bieses, and 2 Unifences, a Bosch 4000, and I been through several Craftsman contractor fences to arrive at the Unifence. I even made my own aluminim fence rail, adapted it to the original Craftsamn fence head and that worked way btter than stock. But the Unifence and Biesemeyer are heads above. garyswf made his own Biese clone and had great results, but he had access to a welder.


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## SeniorSitizen (May 2, 2012)

The blade needs to be parallel to the miter slots first and then the fence adjusted parallel to the miter slots* .*

Below is an excellent example of a low cost technique of doing the blade to slot parallelprovided by woodthings and I see no reason this same method couldn't be used to adjust the fence parallel to the slots* .* 

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/tablesaw-blade-alignment-miter-slot-11185/

Measuring blade tooth to fence distance for a cut isn't all that uncommon as previously mentioned but having to measure fore and aft shouldn't be necessary and I'll work on mine until it isn't or sell it to a scrap buyer *.* I like my yard stick to set fence distance because the lines and numbers are easier to see *.* :thumbsup:


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

If the saw you have is a CM, with cast iron top and belt drive motor, you might think of a Dellta T-2 fence ($165 +/- delivered) 
It will do wonders for the saw. Line the curser up on the tape, and make a cut to that size.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> .........El Cheapo fences just don't. DAMHIKT :laughing:
> ......


are you grouping the OEM fence that accompanies the 4512 and the 21833 as "el cheapo" fences which, i guess by inference, don't align properly?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*non squaring fences*



toolguy1000 said:


> are you grouping the OEM fence that accompanies the 4512 and the 21833 as "el cheapo" fences which, i guess by inference, don't align properly?


Heck, I don't care what they are on or who makes 'em, if they don't self square, they are a PITA. It's just WAY to much hassle to "measure twice, cut once" as the saying goes. Once you get a self aligning fence you are spoiled forever. :yes:


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

I have to agree with bill on this one, a fence that doesn't self align on a tablesaw is a royal pain. I myself have owned TS that didn't have a decent fence and it made ripping wood to a desired demention and eliminating kerf marks and burn marks almost impossible.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

toolguy1000 said:


> IMHO, when the fence reliably squares to the fence rail, and the blade is parallel to the miter slot, the need to measure at front and rear of blade becomes unnecessary, once the fence is adjusted parallel to the blade. as i mentioned above, the tape on my t2 is highly accurate and reads to within ~ 1/128" of actual blade to fence distance. while i've no first hand experience with the 4512 or it's c-man cousin, i'd expect it to perform similarly.


What does " and the blade is parallel to the miter slot," have to do with any thing when the fence is being used?

George


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

SandburRanch said:


> The blade needs to be parallel to the miter slots first and then the fence adjusted parallel to the miter slots* .*
> 
> Below is an excellent example of a low cost technique of doing the blade to slot parallelprovided by woodthings and I see no reason this same method couldn't be used to adjust the fence parallel to the slots* .*
> 
> ...


Same question as I ask above. What does the miter slot have to do with any of this. Presumably the fence is only used in a ripping operation. Having the fence parallel to the blade is what is important.

The miter slot and blade relationship come into play when using a miter gauge and a sled. Important then. Or some other tool that used the miter slot.

Please advise me where I am wrong on this.

George


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*the miter slot is the reference*

If you make both the adjustments to the blade and to the fence parallel to the miter slot, then both are parallel to one another. The miter slot is "theoretically" machined square to the table's front and rear edge and parallel to the table's side edges.

If you leave the miter slot out of the process either the blade or fence may not be square at a 90 degree setting. The blade and fence could be skewed in relation to the miter slot even though they may be parallel to each other. It would require a minor adjustment of the miter gauge to make a 90 degree cut off. JMHO. :yes:


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

If the fence clamps at the rear like the old Craftsmans did you will have to press the front into the guide to square it before locking it in order to get it lock square. 

On most fences the pointer is adjustable so you can set it to be accurate. 

If a tablesaw is correctly set up the blade is parallel to the miter slots, and you can measure from the slot to the fence front and back to check that the fence is parallel to the blade. This is how the installation instructions for a Biesemyer say to adjust the fence.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> ........ Once you get a self aligning fence you are spoiled forever. :yes:


just so i know what is being refrred to, what is a 'self aligning" fence? i'm asking because even my t2 needed to be aligned when it was reinstalled.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

You guys are confusing me LOL....maybe because I am new I can't wrap my head around this.

If you have three things (blade, miter slot, fence) shouldn't they all be parelell to each other?


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> What does " and the blade is parallel to the miter slot," have to do with any thing when the fence is being used?
> 
> George


the constant item in a table saw top is the miter slot. the blade is adjustable as is the fence. so i align the blade to the miter slot and the fence to the miter slot ensuring that both are within .001". kind of like an if a=b, and b=c, then a=c. 

the same result is achievable if the blade is aligned to the miter slot and the fence is aligned to the blade. i just prefer to use a fixed constant (the miter slot) as the reference point for blade and fence adjustments.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> If the fence clamps at the rear like the old Craftsmans did you will have to press the front into the guide to square it before locking it in order to get it lock square.
> 
> yes, that's how the manual for my ridgid 2412 (and for the 3612) instruct that it be done.
> 
> ...


well said. i have a fence on my 2412 that is the same as the OEM fence but with a 12" longer front rail that clamps front and rear. i measure only at the front of the blade and never get burn marks. fences other than tsquares can be servieable, with the possible exception of that OEM c-man that only provided for rip capacity to the right of the blade.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

mengtian said:


> You guys are confusing me LOL....maybe because I am new I can't wrap my head around this.
> 
> If you have three things (blade, miter slot, fence) shouldn't they all be parelell to each other?


absolutely.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*after installation of course!*



toolguy1000 said:


> just so i know what is being refrred to, what is a 'self aligning" fence? i'm asking because even my t2 needed to be aligned when it was reinstalled.


Self squaring or self aligning either way, but certainly after the initial alignment or adjustment is made, it should be parallel to the miter slot. The fence should slide easily and then when locked down, be square to the table and parallel to the miter slot. 
It would drive me nuts not to be able to trust that my fence was off if I moved it over and it didn't lock down in proper alignment. Woodworking has enough challenges without throwing that one in. :laughing:


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

can you point out an example of a fence that isn't "self squaring"?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I used to have one like this*

This fence is so loose on the rail and clamps at the rear with a threaded knob that it would not "self square" to the rail when moved. It was always "off a tad" and very frustrating. I made several modifications to it, finally gave up and ditched it.









This is what I have now, A Delta Unifence:


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

toolguy1000 said:


> the constant item in a table saw top is the miter slot. the blade is adjustable as is the fence. so i align the blade to the miter slot and the fence to the miter slot ensuring that both are within .001". kind of like an if a=b, and b=c, then a=c.
> 
> the same result is achievable if the blade is aligned to the miter slot and the fence is aligned to the blade. i just prefer to use a fixed constant (the miter slot) as the reference point for blade and fence adjustments.


OK, what you say is true. But you have not explained just why the fence should be explained to the miter slot for a rip type cut. The rip cut is the most used with a fence.

A table saw would be just as useful for rip cuts if there was NO miter slot. So I need your explanation to be specific.

There is no point in doing the alignment for for the sake of doing it. Why do extra work that is not needed?

George


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

toolguy1000 said:


> can you point out an example of a fence that isn't "self squaring"?


The original fence that came on my Craftsman table saw 30 years ago.

George


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> If you make both the adjustments to the blade and to the fence parallel to the miter slot, then both are parallel to one another. The miter slot is "theoretically" machined square to the table's front and rear edge and parallel to the table's side edges.
> 
> If you leave the miter slot out of the process either the blade or fence may not be square at a 90 degree setting. The blade and fence could be skewed in relation to the miter slot even though they may be parallel to each other. It would require a minor adjustment of the miter gauge to make a 90 degree cut off. JMHO. :yes:


"If you make both the adjustments to the blade and to the fence parallel to the miter slot, then both are parallel to one another. The miter slot is "theoretically" machined square to the table's front and rear edge and parallel to the table's side edges."

True. But what does that have to do with the fence being parallel to the blade. Remember we are not talking about doing crosscuts here. The blade and the fence could both be off by 10 degrees to the miter slot and be perfectly useful for a rip cut.

"If you leave the miter slot out of the process either the blade or fence may not be square at a 90 degree setting. The blade and fence could be skewed in relation to the miter slot even though they may be parallel to each other. It would require a minor adjustment of the miter gauge to make a 90 degree cut off."

Again ture. But it really has nothing to do with the blade and fence being parallel to each other.

Do you have a specific example of how the fence not being parallel to the miter slot but being parallel to the blade would cause a bad rip cut. 

Or do you use the fence when you are doing crosscuts? That is the only example that I can see of having all three parallel to each other would make any difference.

I will grant that it is nice to have all parallel to each other. However, in the real world it is not a necessity.

You have to remember that I look at the world through the eyes of an engineer, where practicality and necessity often outweigh the niceties of perfection.

George


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> OK, what you say is true. But you have not explained just why the fence should be explained to the miter slot for a rip type cut. The rip cut is the most used with a fence.
> 
> not sure i know what you're referring to when you ask "why the fence should be explained to the miter slot", but i''l try to respond. since most WWs use their TSs for both ripping and crosscutting, it just seems extremely practical to set up the saw so both operations can be performed accurately, rather than limiting it to ripping only.
> 
> ...


hope this helps.:smile:


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> This fence is so loose on the rail and clamps at the rear with a threaded knob that it would not "self square" to the rail when moved. It was always "off a tad" and very frustrating. I made several modifications to it, finally gave up and ditched it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


while i agree those small c-man fences were pretty poorly constructed, their basic design is "self squaring" given that it has a head that rides on a rail attached to the table such that the head is perpendicular to the table. when i cobbled together my c-man, i was fortunate to come across a used t2 to replace the stock fence on the saw (similar to the one in your pic). but my primary objection to it was that the fence rail did not extend to the left of the blade, thereby limiting it's functionality.

my ridgid 2412's OEM fence is a similar design and is accurate to within .001". even a unifence that hasn't been adjusted to be parallel to the blade (or miter slot) will not "magically" self square or self align itself parallel to the blade. and even though i agree that those small c-man fences were less than ideal, i did see a post recently on a WW forum from a user who allegedly (and to my surprise) used his small OEM c-man fence to do cabinetry.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Agreed*



toolguy1000 said:


> the constant item in a table saw top is the miter slot. the blade is adjustable as is the fence. so i align the blade to the miter slot and the fence to the miter slot ensuring that both are within .001". kind of like an if a=b, and b=c, then a=c.
> 
> the same result is achievable if the blade is aligned to the miter slot and the fence is aligned to the blade. i just prefer to use a fixed constant (the miter slot) as the reference point for blade and fence adjustments.


Absolutely! Here's why. 
Let's say we DON"T align the blade to the miter slot, just align the fence to the blade so they are parallel to one another. Let's say the blade is skewed 1 degree off from the miter slot. It won't matter a hoot when ripping, but let's say we now want to cross cut a 12" wide board square across or 90 degrees. We set the mitre gauge to 90 degrees, make our cut a guess what? it's OFF! and not at 90 degrees, maybe 89 degrees or so. 
*You can't make accurate cross cuts using the miter gauge when the both the blade and fence are not parallel to the miter slot. *
If you only use the saw for ripping, then I suppose it won't matter, but I don't limit my table saw to ripping only.

I suppose you could always set your miter gauge to 90 degrees manually with a framing square each time, but why not just set the saw up properly and be done with it. Now throw in angles that are not 90 degrees and you'd have to set the miter gauge for each different cut with some reference tool....PITA
Hope this helps..... :blink:


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## Tman1 (Jan 14, 2013)

In regards to squaring things to the miter slot, you can't just adjust the miter gage if the blade is not square to the miter slot. The miter gage will go straight down the miter slot, but no matter what angle the gage is at, if the blade isn't square, it will either push the work towards the miter gage or pull it away from the miter gage. So, if you don't square the blade to the miter slot first, you either eliminate the ability to use the miter gage for any useful cut, or you have to go back and re-align the fence after you align the blade. In the name of minimizing effort, doing it right the first time is the best choice. 

The advantage to aligning the fence to the miter slot, is if you are 1/32 out from the front to back of the miter slot, that is only 1/96 across the blade (give or take some based on depth of cut and actual measurement locations). But, if you are 1/32 out at the blade, then you are still 1/32 out at the blade. 

As far as OEM fences go, I can understand the complaints about the older CM fence. My father in law has one and the only way to get it square is with a bunch of effort each time you change the position. When I use his saw, I always align to the miter slot, for the reason above. But, my craftsman is about 12 years old with a self aligning fence and I have had to adjust its alignment twice in those 12 years, including when I first got the saw. (I think the second was when it fell off my workbench onto the concrete floor. Unfortunately, I can't help much with the original question, since I don't have personal experience with what is on the market today. CM updated there fence several years ago, though it looks like it should align as well as mine does and be more useful in other ways.


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm really enjoying this thread, jmo but I think what bill is referring to is doing the basic saw allotments that the owners manual reccomends. By following the manuals reccomendations you should be able to rip or crosscut with the confidence that your rip or crosscut is accurate.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

Tman1 said:


> ........ So, if you don't square the blade to the miter slot first,.......


hope i don't sound pedantic, but i believe you mean if you don't align the blade *parallel* to the miter slot. squaring usually refers to one plane being 90* relative to another plane.


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## Tman1 (Jan 14, 2013)

toolguy1000 said:


> hope i don't sound pedantic, but i believe you mean if you don't align the blade parallel to the miter slot. squaring usually refers to one plane being 90* relative to another plane.


You are correct. I constantly found myself saying square, the going back and changing it. I think it is because it produces a square cut. I must have missed that one.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> "If you make both the adjustments to the blade and to the fence parallel to the miter slot, then both are parallel to one another. The miter slot is "theoretically" machined square to the table's front and rear edge and parallel to the table's side edges."
> 
> True. But what does that have to do with the fence being parallel to the blade. Remember we are not talking about doing crosscuts here. The blade and the fence could both be off by 10 degrees to the miter slot and be perfectly useful for a rip cut.
> 
> ...


George, the standard method of adjusting the table saw is to start by checking the arbor and bearings, and then aligning the blade to the miter slot. This is critical for the use of the miter gauge and all common sleds.

The fence is then adjusted parallel to the slot as this gives you a long reference line, and avoids any possible errors that could be caused by problems with the arbor, bearings, or blade. 

This gives you the advantage of being able to use miter slot to anchor a dial indicator for all of the measurements.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

Reading this thread is enlightening to me in why so many people have problems with kickback.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

GeorgeC;428027I will grant that it is nice to have all parallel to each other. However said:


> Why would you want to operate a table saw that is not set up correctly for both cross and rip cuts?


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Reading this thread is enlightening to me in why so many people have problems with kickback.


+1

I was going to say the same thing, you beat me to it.

Never had one ever, due to both set-up and operator methods.


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## Duane Bledsoe (Oct 18, 2012)

WillemJM said:


> Why would you want to operate a table saw that is not set up correctly for both cross and rip cuts?


I can sort of see why this might be done. I virtually have no use for a table saw other than for rip cuts. I would like to try a few other things just to further my learning. But I use a miter saw for crosscuts and a router for dado cuts. I've never even tried the miter gauge that came with my table saw. This might be because a lot of operations on my saw seem hard or unsafe due to a cheap miter gauge or too small of a table surface. But I learned to do these things other ways so rip cutting was all I ever had a true need for a table saw to do. Any sheet materials were just cut with a circular saw, rips and crosscuts. Accuracy is less than desired but I recently made a circular saw guide that can cut up to 8' so I'm hoping this gets better.

Still, I want a solid table saw with a good fence that's easy to adjust accurately anyway. I may just learn to do some of the other things with it if I had a really nice one.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

WillemJM said:


> Why would you want to operate a table saw that is not set up correctly for both cross and rip cuts?


I would not. Unless I was only going to do one or the other.

Of course that is not the issue here. The discussion is about setting up the fence. (see the title of the thread) Somebody stated that the fence needed to be parallel to the miter slot.

So far no one has been able to provide any explanation or example of why this is necessary . I would guess that there may be some type of operation where both the miter slot and fence are used at the same time.

The point of my discussion is that people should not tell others to do something that is not necessary. Unless they can explain why.

George


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

GeorgeC said:


> The point of my discussion is that people should not tell others to do something that is not necessary. Unless they can explain why.
> 
> George


obviously, it isn't necessary to align the fence to the miter slot. if restricted solely to ripping operations, aligning the fence to the blade will work, it just doesn't seem to be a terribly good way to maximize the functionality of a TS as it may preclude accurate crosscutting, such as sizing cabinet panels with a crosscut sled.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*Sheeese*



GeorgeC said:


> I would not. Unless I was only going to do one or the other.
> 
> Of course that is not the issue here. The discussion is about setting up the fence. (see the title of the thread) Somebody stated that the fence needed to be parallel to the miter slot.
> 
> ...


*So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?*

What if some innocent or even you in a mental lapse grab the miter gauge, maybe your miter saw has broken down or is all set up for another operation, AND you need to make a cross cut on a 10" piece of stock, you make the cut only to discover it's off AND you have ruined the last piece of wood you have?

If you are fortunate to be able to use your table saw for ripping only AND have no need to cross cut on it, then bully for you....most of us aren't that fortunate. Straight line rip saws are usually dedicated to lumber mills and large cabinet shops, the rest of us use our table saw for both crosscut and ripping operations. 

As was stated the use of a sled will cause problems. How do you make a sled that is not set up in the miter slots if the blade is skewed respective to them? The blade will bind in the sled, and probably kick it back toward you. 

I don't know if this is a hypothetical discussion and that you actually do have your blade and fence properly aligned and parallel to the miter slots OR you are just wasting all of our time trying to get you to understand why it's necessary for safety reasons, for accuracy reasons and because it just makes sense to use the saw as intended....other wise there would be no miter slots milled in top and the would be no miter gauge included with all the saws sold today and for years.

If you want to be the lone wolf woodworker out there, go right ahead. We try to give the best advice based on our experience , some of us have 50 years behind a table saw, to help others operate the saw in a safe and efficient manner.
Advice here is free and you are free to ignore it. :yes:

By the way, I have sized many a panel for cabinets using the fence. It is far easier to get it aligned to the slot than any other reference point or plane. You slide it over until it's showing a slight space, or parallel, and use a finger tip to check it all the way along. A micrometer on a tight fitting guide can be run in the miter slot and all along the fence for more precision if necessary...... they make tools for exactly this operation....wonder why?


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't believe there are any rights or wrongs in this thread, different folks have different methods and a table saw remains a very simple rudementary piece of equipment from an engineering point of view. Actually a whole lot more technology goes into the blade, the right hook angle of the teeth, tear-out etc.

Setting up the fence is a 5 minute exercise, some prefer no toe-out some prefer a litlle, some prefer a lot.

When a new table saw is purchased or set up, the first thing is to set the miter slot to be true to the blade. If it comes assembled, a quality saw will have that done at the factory.
There are some miter angles that are not possible on a miter saw, where the table saw comes in handy.

What has a big influence is what the saw is used for, it can be a very versatile piece of equipment.

It also depends what type of work one does in the shop, I'm currently doing case work, where the accuracy is absolutely dominant, so I have to work with metric and in decimals of millimeters. I'll post the project when done, so more on that later. In this case the work can be done with an incorrect set up saw, but it would mean that all cross cuts have to be squared by setting up with trial and error taking more time.

Important to understand that in the simplicity of the table saw, the fence accuracy is less important provided it is not toed in and with a gross error toe-out of say 1" across the blade, the saw will still cut perfectly square, but the kerf will be 1" wide. We do that purposely at times, when we cut concave coves using the saw.

The difference between a true miter slot and an untrue miter slot, is the difference between a 15 second check for fence accuracy and a 5 minute check for fence accuracy. To tighten the fence next to the miter slot and check is probably less than 15 seconds.


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

I've got to say GeorgeC, I think you may be out of line here. Although technically it may not be necessary to align the blade and the fence both to the miter slot to make a rip cut, If you want to use the miter slots AT ALL it is necessary to have the blade aligned to the miter slot, so therefore if you align the fence to the blade it will also be aligned to the miter slot. It is also what they call best practice, so it should definitely be taught that way.

Edit: Even if you don't intend on using the miter slot at all, you should still align to the miter slot if there is one. Just because you don't intend on using it doesn't mean someone else won't use it. Or you won't forget and use it later on. Using a saw with a miter slot that isn't parallel to the blade for crosscutting isn't just inaccurate, but it is extremely dangerous, as it can cause kickback. Although it isn't necessary to have the fence aligned to the miter slot to perform rip operations, it is a hazard to have a saw that is set up in such fashion. Rant over.


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## PSDkevin (Dec 18, 2010)

Not trying to be a smarta$ here but here's my take:
Although not completely necessary I always set the clock on my DVD player. I am already setting it up and messing with the settings. And ya know, sometimes I wanna know what time it is. 

So yes, it is not necessary. But why would you take away a capability of the saw. You are already making adjustments. Take a few more minutes and make all of them. You'll be glad you did; I promise.


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

woodnthings said:


> *So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?*
> 
> What if some innocent or even you in a mental lapse grab the miter gauge, maybe your miter saw has broken down or is all set up for another operation, AND you need to make a cross cut on a 10" piece of stock, you make the cut only to discover it's off AND you have ruined the last piece of wood you have?
> 
> ...


thanks for posting this link. but, IMHO, the "host'" made a critical mistake. the same miter slot was not used to check both fence parallelism and blade parallelism. this, although unlikely, could introduce an error should the miter slots be either out of parallel to each other or different in some way from the other miter slot. this is the only thing in the tune up procedure covered in the video that i'd take issue with.


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

*Is this close enough?*

I don't have any fancy gauges. You guys tell me if this saw is in pretty good alignment. I ran a 14" board through with the tape measurment being 3". (I am not concerned about the 3" but let me know how close that is also.)

I measured the board at both ends with digital calipers (mm, inches, inches in fractions)

Measurement............top end...........bottom end
Inches.....................2.9655............2.982
Fractions..................2 31/32..........2 63/64
MM.........................75.31.............75.69

I have no clue wha a good tolerance is. It was .0165 for the inch measurement


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

woodnthings said:


> *So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?*
> 
> What if some innocent or even you in a mental lapse grab the miter gauge, maybe your miter saw has broken down or is all set up for another operation, AND you need to make a cross cut on a 10" piece of stock, you make the cut only to discover it's off AND you have ruined the last piece of wood you have?
> 
> ...


You are having reading comprehension problems. "*So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?"

*I never said(or at least did not intend to say) anything even resembling that statement. I align the fence to the blade and also the blade to the miter slot. Each has its place in an operation.

I NEVER align the fence to the miter slot. Unless the fence just happens to be sitting next to the miter slot on a given cut and it is convenient to do so just for a double check.

I rip and crosscut on my table saw just like everyone else. However I mostly crosscut using a sled which obviously fits in the miter slot(s). Of course you realize that if you were only going to use a table saw for ripping it would not even need a miter slot??

I am still waiting for someone to explain what good it does to align the fence to the miter slot as a matter of course/normal operation. Actually in the real world all three will be parallel to each other if each job is done correctly. It would seem that you would be doing some type of crosscutting operation to be using the miter slot. What do you do with the fence when you are doing this? And why are you using the fence?

I think that people have just heard others say to align the fence to the miter slot and have just accepted it without questioning why. I am questioning why. ?????

Anyone? Got an example? I am sure that out there somewhere there is a legitimate reason to use the miter slot and the fence all in one operation.

George


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

George and all...are we all saying the same thing but in a different way? One should 
1. align the blade to the miter slot. 
2. Then the fence to the blade? 

In theory you could align the fence to either at this point.

For some reason I think this is getting way to complicated.

Anyway, when folks get done fighting I would like to know if my saw is too far off and if it needs more adjustment (see my laast post)


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## Tman1 (Jan 14, 2013)

GeorgeC said:


> You are having reading comprehension problems. "So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?"
> 
> I never said(or at least did not intend to say) anything even resembling that statement. I align the fence to the blade and also the blade to the miter slot. Each has its place in an operation.
> 
> ...


George,

There are at least two reasons given to align the fence to the miter slot

1- It can be faster, because you can quickly check both ends with your finger, a dial indicator, or ( though it hasn't been mentioned) a combination square. 
2- you get better accuracy, because the miter slot is longer than the blade, so a small error from end to end of the miter slot becomes a smaller error at the blade. To put it another way, if you have the same error in inches aligning to the blade and the slot, you will get a greater error in degrees (which is what really matters) by aligning to the blade. Personally, I get less error in inches aligning to the slot. 

To answer the other question about the accuracy of alignment (sorry, I don't remember the name of the poster), here is my opinion. 

0.0165" is pretty accurate, you could do better than that, but probably don't need to. The important thing is how does it work on your project and that you don't have burning and kickback issues. You only mentioned the measurement at each end (or I misunderstood). That makes the assumption that the cut was straight, which is a bad assumption. 

If you wanted to reduce the error, it is important to note that there are other factors than just the table saw alignment. These include the straightness of the board before the cut, the straightness of the fence (especially when auxiliary fences are used), variation in how the board is held/fed throughout the cut, and how the board warps as it cuts, and probably some other things.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

GeorgeC said:


> You are having reading comprehension problems.
> 
> 
> "*So, just so I understand ...you don't care if the blade is skewed in relation to the miter slot, AND you align the fence parallel to the blade, AND you only intend to use the table for ripping...?"
> ...


Well George, for as many responses as this thread as to your posts, I'm not the only one who has been befuddled by your statements..... just sayin' :blink:


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## SLAC_Engineer (Feb 23, 2012)

mengtian said:


> I don't have any fancy gauges. You guys tell me if this saw is in pretty good alignment. I ran a 14" board through with the tape measurment being 3". (I am not concerned about the 3" but let me know how close that is also.)
> 
> I measured the board at both ends with digital calipers (mm, inches, inches in fractions)
> 
> ...


This is ok. I prefer tighter on my saw (.005) You should check for repeatability of the cut. Make the same cut 10 times and see if you get the same numbers. Depending on the design of the fence, if you change how much pressure you put on the fence from cut to cut you will see variations in your numbers. You can use this test to get a feel for the sensitivity of your fence to fence pressure. 

As far as alignment procedures another benefit of aligning the blade and the fence to the miter slot is compliance. The miter slot is probably most durable, un-changing reference on your saw. In general, for precision alignment it's always nice to have a single, robust, reference surface. I would never use a saw blade as reference for aligning something to. You can not assume that your saw blade is flat or will stay flat or that your arbor is true. Obviously you need the check theses things but its an indicator of compliance. Also, a saw blade is fairly soft in that if you try to use it as a reference, you will find that it moves on you both radially and transversely when you really want it to be rock solid if using as a reference.


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## d_slat (Apr 10, 2012)

mengtian said:


> I would like to know if my saw is too far off and if it needs more adjustment (see my laast post)


sounds like you might be OK, but no way to tell for sure just from the measurements of a rip cut. Most of the time, when aligning the blade I use a combination square, and set it so when I run it down the edge of the miter slot, the rule will JUST rub the body of the saw blade(not the teeth). You should just hear the rub slightly, but feel no "bump" as the leading edge of the rule climbs onto the body of the blade. I then leave the ruler locked in the same spot and check for the same on the other end of the blade. I pretty much do the same thing with my fence and the miter slot, using either the same combi-square or a rafter square.


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## tonyuno (Jan 5, 2013)

As a new member I hesitate to jump in here. I spent a eon as a aerospace engine machinist/ inspector/ overhaul manual writer and cannot understand why anyone would not want to maximize their equipment. I don't have huge money to spend so have to maximize what I can afford. My TS is a Delta TS 330, after assembly, I checked it out fairly carefully. The bed was flat within an acceptable tolerance and the miter slots ran parallel to each other, the fence slide was, however out by 0.005 over its length so had to be shimmed. The mitre to blade was out by 0.003 but the blade itself had a wow of 0.005. ( I have checked a good few blades for flatness and even the pricey ones are out of whack.the fence was out by right on. The point I am trying to make is however expensive your equipment is if it is not set up to perform you are not getting the best out of it. Sorry to be so long winded.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Being as we are trying to get the best performance, and safety from our ts's, why not set it up right? Even if you are a wood butcher. Think safety.
Simple. Align miter slots to blade. Align fence to miterslot. Ok, toe it out a bit if you feel it's necessary.

After putting a Biesemeyer style (Jet Xacta) fence on my Unisaur, I never measure from fence to blade. Just align curser to tape and cut. It's a pleasure to use.

Years ago, when I was 20 years old, I had a job installing fences. One day a guy came into the shop to use the bosses old cm table saw to cut some wood for cabinets. He spent a good part of the morning, getting the saw aligned. My friend and I thought, "why doesn't he just cut the wood"
Little did I know back then!
Can you imagine how many accidents would have been avoided, over the years, if everyone set up their ts's correctly, before using!


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## mengtian (Nov 8, 2012)

What does:


> Ok, toe it out a bit if you feel it's necessary.


mean?


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*some theories say toe/shift it out at the rear*

Other theories say "you don't need to, just make it parallel with the slots. The theory is that once the work is cut and passes the rear of the blade there will be a tiny bit of clearance with will prevent it from getting pickup and carried back toward you.

There's another theory that says the fence need not be any longer than the center of the arbor, for the same reason.

The painfully explained video:





Personally, I like the longest fence I can have. I do use a splitter however to keep the workpiece against the fence and from rotating around toward you...kickback.

I'd start with it parallel until you get the feel of it OR you haven't got it exactly right and experience some tendency to kickback. Toe out at the rear won't hurt if it's a few thousands. Toed in toward the blade is a big problem. :furious:


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

tonycan said:


> As a new member I hesitate to jump in here. I spent a eon as a aerospace engine machinist/ inspector/ overhaul manual writer and cannot understand why anyone would not want to maximize their equipment. ... I have checked a good few blades for flatness and even the pricey ones are out of whack....


You just explained why you shouldn't set the fence to the blade. Even the best blades are not flat when they are not spinning at speed. (Not sure how you would check one while it is spinning at 3400-rpm, and what effect the loads from cutting actually have).


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> We try to give the best advice based on our experience , *some of us have 50 years behind a table saw*, to help others operate the saw in a safe and efficient manner.


I read this and wondered how you were able to go to school, attend college, and put 30 years in a full time job at GM, and have that much time behind a tablesaw.:laughing: Interesting how experience is described...just sayin'.:laughing:

















.


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## garryswf (Aug 17, 2009)

I have watched the new yankee work shop for many years and seen ole norm use the mitre gauge in conjuction with the fence to make half lap joints. He does use a a short piece of wood so the end of the piece of wood that is recieving the half lap doesn't actually ride on this piece of wood while traveling over the blade for safety reasons.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

cabinetman said:


> I read this and wondered how you were able to go to school, attend college, and put 30 years in a full time job at GM, and have that much time behind a tablesaw.:laughing: Interesting how experience is described...just sayin'.:laughing:



:laughing::laughing::laughing: I never said that they were continuous, consecutive or contiguous.... only that "I had 50 yrs behind a table saw" which does NOT mean I stood behind one for 50 yrs. :no: 

I bought my first Craftsman 100, when I was 18 with high school graduation money, about $100.00 or so. I used that saw up until about 5 years ago when I parted it out to make the ganged table saw setup I have now. If you said you had 50 yrs in the saddle would that mean you never got off the horse ?...just askin" Would 50 yrs behind the wheel, mean you never had to use the restroom? If you've been ridin' a bike for 50 yrs, would that mean you never got off of it? 

You're a smart guy, and should've been able to read between the lines...like now. :blink:


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## toolguy1000 (Oct 4, 2012)

garryswf said:


> I have watched the new yankee work shop for many years and seen ole norm use the mitre gauge in conjuction with the fence to make half lap joints. He does use a a short piece of wood so the end of the piece of wood that is recieving the half lap doesn't actually ride on this piece of wood while traveling over the blade for safety reasons.


i'm trying to envision what you're describing, but half lap joints involve non through cuts, so it's acceptable to use the fence and miter gauge together as there's no offcut to lodge between the blade and the fence. or am i missing something?


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: I never said that they were continuous, consecutive or contiguous.... only that "I had 50 yrs behind a table saw" which does NOT mean I stood behind one for 50 yrs. :no:
> 
> I bought my first Craftsman 100, when I was 18 with high school graduation money, about $100.00 or so. I used that saw up until about 5 years ago when I parted it out to make the ganged table saw setup I have now. If you said you had 50 yrs in the saddle would that mean you never got off the horse ?...just askin" Would 50 yrs behind the wheel, mean you never had to use the restroom? If you've been ridin' a bike for 50 yrs, would that mean you never got off of it?
> 
> You're a smart guy, and should've been able to read between the lines...like now. :blink:


I am reading between the lines. I don't know how smart I am, but extrapolating from what you said, it sounds like you had access to a tablesaw for 50 years, whether you used it or not. I'm betting you did use it from time to time. :yes:



















.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you'd win that bet*



cabinetman said:


> I am reading between the lines. I don't know how smart I am, but extrapolating from what you said, it sounds like you had access to a tablesaw for 50 years, whether you used it or not. I'm betting you did use it from time to time. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My first "workshop" was an 8 x 10 ft bedroom in a Chicago brownstone. It had 10 ft ceilings and I made a loft bed over the table saw, drill press and welding tanks. I was never further than a flight of stairs from that table saw for all of those 50 yrs, it followed me where ever I moved. :blink:


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodnthings said:


> My first "workshop" was an 8 x 10 ft bedroom in a Chicago brownstone. It had 10 ft ceilings and I made a loft bed over the table saw, drill press and welding tanks. I was never further than a flight of stairs from that table saw for all of those 50 yrs, it followed me where ever I moved. :blink:


Yup...there it was in case you needed it. :yes: I heard of a guy that was actually born on top of a Unisaw. Got so used to that saw he slept on it instead of a bed for most of his life. He said he needed the firmness. As he grew older and taller, he added an extension table. He is in his 60's now and I don't know if he ever cut anything on that saw. Personally, if I was sleeping on a saw, I wouldn't keep a blade on it. :laughing:



















.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

toolguy1000 said:


> i'm trying to envision what you're describing, but half lap joints involve non through cuts, so it's acceptable to use the fence and miter gauge together as there's no offcut to lodge between the blade and the fence. or am i missing something?


Actually you want to not use the fence, because if it is not aligned with the miter slot it can force the edge of the kerf into the back of the blade. 

Admittedly it would have to be quite a bit out of alignment to get dangerous. But, safe habits are a good thing so I always use a spacer to offset the work from the fence.


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## Rhyno (Oct 13, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> ........... garyswf made his own Biese clone and had great results, but he had access to a welder.


I have used the search window, and also Doogle, but I can't find anything....

Do you have a link to some pics or a write-up?

Thanks.....


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*here's the thread*



Rhyno said:


> I have used the search window, and also Doogle, but I can't find anything....
> 
> Do you have a link to some pics or a write-up?
> 
> Thanks.....


The photos have all be edited out for some reason. If you PM garry he might provide them ...? You will lneed 5 more posts for that ability on this site, a total of 25.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f9/ts-fence-rails-12770/


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

Here is something I found online a while ago.


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## Rhyno (Oct 13, 2013)

woodnthings said:


> The photos have all be edited out for some reason. If you PM garry he might provide them ...? You will lneed 5 more posts for that ability on this site, a total of 25.
> http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f9/ts-fence-rails-12770/


Thanks for the help and suggestions....:smile:


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## Rhyno (Oct 13, 2013)

Pirate said:


> Here is something I found online a while ago.


Thanks!!:smile:


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

Rhyno said:


> I have used the search window, and also Doogle, but I can't find anything....
> 
> Do you have a link to some pics or a write-up?
> 
> Thanks.....


Fine Woodworking has several articles on home made fences in their archives. If your a member you can view PDFs of the articles. If you're not a member you can do a trial membership free for thirty days. 

Personally I subscribe online and get access to each months articles, plus the entire catalog of past articles for less than the cost of the hard copy.


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## Rhyno (Oct 13, 2013)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Fine Woodworking has several articles on home made fences in their archives. If your a member you can view PDFs of the articles. If you're not a member you can do a trial membership free for thirty days.
> 
> Personally I subscribe online and get access to each months articles, plus the entire catalog of past articles for less than the cost of the hard copy.


Thanks,...:smile:

I'll look into their offerings, Online and HardCopy...


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## Noek (Jan 26, 2013)

It took a while for me to understand that a tiny bit of toe out would not affect my cut. I kept thinking my fence wasn't aligned so I would measure the face to the mitre slot and adjust it in the rear, getting rid of the toe out. Now I know when i set the fence, there will be a tiny bit of (factory set???) toe out at clamp down on the fence. Cuts are just as straight.


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

I disagree with the toe out theory...but that's just me.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Apr 28, 2012)

ryan50hrl said:


> I disagree with the toe out theory...but that's just me.


Me too. I also believe that the blade should always be used at full height, to minimize the potential for kickback.


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## Pirate (Jul 23, 2009)

jigs-n-fixtures said:


> Me too. I also believe that the blade should always be used at full height, to minimize the potential for
> kickback.



I stopped using my saw with the blade close to full height, to minimize kick back, after joining up, here, and realizing the added danger of a high blade. Plus, I changed to an old Unisaw, that, with proper use, doesn't kick back. Key word, "proper" 
Of course the uni has been set up right!

On making your own Biesemeyer style fence.
I have a Jet, Xacta fence, and a Biesemeyer fence.
Where the Bies. has glide pads, where the fence rests on the rail.
The Xacta has tapped holes, with socket head, nylon (?) set screws. This lets you set the fence face, 90 deg. to the table. The end of the set screw, acts as a glide surface. 
I recently got the Bies (used) and checked, and the face is not exactly at 90 deg. I may drill and tap a hole in the center of the orig. glide pads, and put a couple of nylon set screws in.


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