# Hand tools only?



## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

I am new to this forum, stumbled on it looking for joinery information. Disclaimer: my interest is rooted in CNC work. I am developing software for flexible dovetail machining with v-bits as my current hobby (unequal board thickness and variable angles). Kind of a math challenge.....

But I know some of the woodworking forums are focused on hand tools and manually operated machine tools and CNC content is not welcome. I am not sure here. Please let me know if this is not considered relevant information (I will bugger off then) but I would appreciate links for better places (I know about the CNC-Zone forum).

Thanks, JB


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

There's a few CNC guys that post sometimes. Mostly hand or normal power tools, but if you start some threads I'd be interested in reading about CNC methodology.


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

While there is an active hand tools sub-forum here, this is definately NOT a hand tools only forum.


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## Brian T. (Dec 19, 2012)

Count me in. I'd like to learn a lot more about CNC woodworking. 
Call it just bloody-minded curiosity for now. 
I'd like to have some grasp of the capabilities.
Same goes for 3D printing.


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

Cool. Looks like I can get some feedback here :thumbsup:
As for my software work on dovetails, I will start a separate thread to give it a meaningful title.

I have been doing various woodworking, especially turning for a long time and made pretty decent stuff but never go to the stage of highly skilled craftsmanship. 2 years ago I started with a commercial small CNC machine (Shark Pro) but got dissatisfied with the performance within weeks. Then I built my own CNC machine, mostly made of Bamboo. I somebody cares to read 409 thread posts, the whole story is on CNC-zone

The machine is still not going to make me a master craftsman, but besides the technical fun and challenge (yes, I am an engineer and enjoy it...) it allows me to do precision work and detailed machining that would be impossible or time prohibitive by hand. That is, not to compete with craftsmanship, but to do different things. So far I just scratched the surface but following a few examples:

some fractal carving pattern:









Salad serving hands, cherry (the bowl is actually turned by hand from mulberry root):









4" tall figurine (myrtlewood):









Making parts for a redwood door (special 8' table extension for my 34" machine):





Finished door:


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

Very interesting. I love the salad hands and the bowl. Very nice grain in the mulberry root. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Curl (Jan 1, 2013)

I love the serving hands! Really cool!


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

Here is the first real project I did with the dovetail software: A storage box for cosmetic stuff that I made as a birthday present for my wife. I made it from a 1" rough cherry board that I found at garage sale, resawed and planed to 7.5mm sheets:










Cutting the pieces and dovetailing with my new program:









All parts finished. I had to change the CNC machined hinges eventually; the thin wood was just too weak.









Partially assembled:









Finished box:









Opened:









Three edged dovetail joint:


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## rayking49 (Nov 6, 2011)

Very cool. Awesome projects.


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

In the meantime I finished the software and if somebody cares to buy it I set up a web shop. Since this forum is not really CNC oriented I don't really expect too much but I though to share some of the cool things (in my totally humble opinion) that can be done with it:

User Interface:









Normal dovetails (tapered):

















Flat Dovetails:


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

*A few more examples....*

Dowel locked dovetails:

















Half-Blind Dovetails:









Dovetails that can be disassembled:


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## Sorrowful Jones (Nov 28, 2010)

CNC's are here to stay, but I have mixed feelings. Some REALLY cool stuff can be made on a CNC, but craftsmanship goes out the window in favor of simply knowing how to program a computer.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Sorrowful Jones said:


> CNC's are here to stay, but I have mixed feelings. Some REALLY cool stuff can be made on a CNC, but craftsmanship goes out the window in favor of simply knowing how to program a computer.


Well, it is a different kind of craftsmanship in programming. The programming craftsmanship involves clean, efficient code, economy of characters, free from errors, etc. Unfortunately, this craftsmanship doesn't necessarily transfer into the wooden object that is machined. This is much the same as any tool. The level of craftsmanship of a tool maker will not necessarily show in whatever project his tools are used on.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Woodworking Talk


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## info (Oct 3, 2011)

I think you did amazing job . 
Cnc machine are way out of my price budget .
How ever It does look good .


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## Gatordust (Jun 5, 2013)

Super work and I love the fit of the joinery. Like others, will have to learn to do it by hand as my pocket book won't give it up.:laughing:
Thanks for the inspiration.

Steve


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

Sorrowful Jones said:


> CNC's are here to stay, but I have mixed feelings. Some REALLY cool stuff can be made on a CNC, but craftsmanship goes out the window in favor of simply knowing how to program a computer.


Don't worry. Just having a CNC machine (and hopefully knowing how to use it) does not make you a master woodworker. You can build horrible crap with a CNC machine just as well as by hand. For me it is just another step up from mechanized woodworkig tools like jointers, band saws or router jigs. For that matter, since I have the CNC I get much more use out of my planer, band saw and other standard tools.

The major advantages I see are:
- a method to take a design directly from the drawing to the lumber. A normal user does not have to know anything about programming but should know or learn about design and CAM software. There is sure a learning curve.
- a method of machining precision features that I personally could never do myself by hand. That part of the craftsmanship and skill may actually go away but I would compare it with sewing a high quality dress. Nobody would do that nowadays by hand but use a sewing machine which is still difficult enough and considered craftmanship.
- for the professionals there is also the aspect of productivity as precision production tool for repetitive work. A cabinet maker will have a hard time to be competitive in the future without a cnc machine.
- for me it is also a fabulous tinker toy. I built the machine myself and that was fun.

As for the cost, it depends. Some people have built usable mid-size CNC machines for under $2000 (not easy, though). Finished machines go from $3000 up to unlimited. I have a very sturdy machine with 34"x31"x8" work space and spent maybe $4000 building it.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

I think my biggest gripe with CNC machining and wood is just how indifferent it is to the grain and character of the wood. Don't get me wrong, I am not anywhere near a master craftsman, but machining wood and working with wood are two very different things. Each has a place, but they are more different than two means to the same end.

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## AJH (Apr 11, 2013)

I am not inpressed I could make compound joints by hand.Maybe not as fast but just as nice.There will always be stuff machines cannot do.At some point one may only be a machine operator and not a woodworker.
Would you like a example?


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Very nice! I particularly like the dowel locked and disassembleable (is that even a word?) dovetails... they're quite cool.


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

Backbevel said:


> I am not inpressed I could make compound joints by hand.Maybe not as fast but just as nice.There will always be stuff machines cannot do.At some point one may only be a machine operator and not a woodworker.
> Would you like a example?


Hello Backbevel, 
I have no doubt that you can make joints that are as nice or even better by hand. Hand work has the ultimate flexibility if you apply the necessary labor and skill. The problem for me is, I do not have the skill (and probably not the patience). The point of posting the pictures was therefore not necessarily to impress with the results but to show what can be done with this new software. Making dovetail joints on a CNC is not trivial and the few people who do that just emulate the manual process with dovetail shaped router bits, which has many limitations and requires vertical clamping of one board (impossible on many machines). 
This new method uses a 30-degree v-bit only on a 15-degree clamping jig. There is some tricky math behind the method to make both boards fit without voids.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

I am happy to see examples of what a smart programmer can create with a CNC machine.

I like my hand tools, I like my power tools. If I had a CNC machine, I expect I would also like it.

I have written more than my share of code over the years. In my case the code was to manipulate data rather than the head of a CNC machine.

It is not easy getting code to work as desired. Like woodworking, can be many iterations. I used to tell the folks testing my code "I have finished writing the bugs, now it is your job to find them"

I have seen lots of wood work which was created without power tools. I can appreciate the effort and skill.

I can also appreciate the effort to get CNC code to work as desired. Different skills.

Jerry is just showing us what he can achieve with his machine. He did ask at the start if this was hand tools only, and we responded power tools are welcome.

I am happy to see more examples of peoples work, whether hand tools, power tools, or CNC. Sometimes I see something which inspires me. Sometimes I just appreciate seeing the piece.


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## Phaedrus (Jan 18, 2012)

Good points Dave. I for one am still scratching my head looking at some of the angles cut on the joints that were CNC'd. Interesting stuff.

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## AJH (Apr 11, 2013)

I guess I came across kinda harsh yesterday.I kinda figured there was more to plugging in your machine and push the dovetail button.I'm sure you better have your head screwed on pretty straight to run your machine.
The truth for me is I get my ass kick every year at local woodcraft show by a guy who creates art on a Cnc machine nice guy but I hate him.Maybe next year I'll take the trophy.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Backbevel said:


> I guess I came across kinda harsh yesterday.I kinda figured there was more to plugging in your machine and push the dovetail button.I'm sure you better have your head screwed on pretty straight to run your machine.
> The truth for me is I get my ass kick every year at local woodcraft show by a guy who creates art on a Cnc machine nice guy but I hate him.Maybe next year I'll take the trophy.



I've got to admit, I'm beginning to think there should be separate categories in competitions for CNC and non-CNC. Not because the CNC folks always win -- I doubt they do -- but because they're such different skill sets. One person uses code, and the other uses their hands on tools. Neither is better, but almost the only overlap in skill is the final product.


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## Dave Paine (May 30, 2012)

amckenzie4 said:


> I've got to admit, I'm beginning to think there should be separate categories in competitions for CNC and non-CNC. Not because the CNC folks always win -- I doubt they do -- but because they're such different skill sets. One person uses code, and the other uses their hands on tools. Neither is better, but almost the only overlap in skill is the final product.


Sounds like a good idea to me. :thumbsup:

Since we have no input to the competitions, I am not expecting to see this anytime soon. :huh:


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nope. But if we all start mentioning it at competitions we view, the organizers might get the idea. Who knows... it could happen.


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## JerryBurks (Apr 10, 2013)

It might indeed be helpful to keep it separate. I have never participated in such a competition but depending on the judges, they may value some over-the-top carving higher than good design and elegant execution. Admittedly a CNC machine lends itself to such over the top products and I personally find a lot of the stuff that is being made kitschy enough to cringe. But there seems to be a market for that, too.

As for a comment made earlier about not considering the character and grain of the wood, that is of course up to the person using the machine. In principle it applies to manual work as well as to CNC machining. But I agree it is easy for somebody who does not know what he is doing, to just slap a piece of lumber on a CNC table and butcher it.

I hope I am not talking the issue to death but I find this a very interesting discussion.


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Jerry,

First, welcome to the our forum.

I just finished up a project where the majority components were cut CNC.

The woods used are sugar pine and mahogany. The beams, brackets and bolts were degreased and sprayed with a rusting solution of 4 parts white vinegar, 1 part hydrogen peroxide and 1/2 part salt.

CNC is a tool not unlike any of the others we use.

It takes skill to program. The machine will do exactly as its told.

Like any other method there is always a possibility of error. Therefore IMO when the project turns out well the programmer/operator/designer deserves as much a "good on ya" as those using other methods.

You do great work. I'm looking forward to seeing more post from you.


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## jharris2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Oops,

Forgot to credit Steve for the concept, design, programing and CNC operation.

http://www.google.com/search?q=stev...v&sa=X&ei=hPW3UZK3G-OaiAKwroGwCw&ved=0CDYQsAQ


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## BZawat (Sep 21, 2012)

Hey Jerry I tried to PM you but you don't have enough posts to unlock that feature yet. I have a question for you. Shoot me an email when you have a minute, if you would. [email protected]

Thanks!
Brian


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok let's not beat up on anyone. I think the problem of introducing CNC stuff to a forum like this is not much different the where other computer operated machines to the old craftmenship way out of a certain profession/craft or art. People take that very personal. 

For example I use to do commercial art/graphic design and signs. All by hand no computer. I hand cut vinyl or hand painted letters for signs. Not bragging but I was cutting stuff most people still could not do with there computers. I made color separations for screen printing by hand and would draw the pictures used for ads in the news paper. I was very good at this and enjoyed the artistic challenge. Computers came in and mast produced everything driving down prices. No different then CNC machines or better yet hand cut dove tails went out with the dovetail jig, wood joinery went out with all the new fasteners especially pocket screws. There are probably a lot more examples but your losing the personal craftsmanship that people use as there expression in there art or craft.

I can create beautiful computer art but I don't get the same feeling of accomplishment or satisfaction as when I do it by hand. After Katrina I lost almost all my will to draw and replaced it with woodworking. I tried the pocket screws and plain butt joints but prefer any other type of more traditional joinery. I won't bash someone for doing it different but I will boast that take the time to do it in a more traditional way. I have all the respect in the world for people like Tom (firemedic) that builds stuff almost entirely by hand. I want to learn these methods and maybe try to incorporate some of those techniques in a artistic way. However I told Tom the same thing. " I'm a power tool type of guy" like Tim Taylor use to say " More Power" 3 grunts. :laughing:

Now as I was saying CNC machines , plotters and now 3d printers are here to stay. I'm fine with that unless this technology is used but not disclosed. Lets say your selling one of those carvings shown above. if a customer ask if you made it, I would expect you to explain that it was carved by a computer operated machine rather then saying yes. The reason is people usually don't have a clue in these things. they assume it was carved by hand and may compare it to someone else's stuff that was either in price or quality and that is not right. Hell I plan on building a CNC machine for certain items that will be used to embellish certain things. Decorative moldings, small carvings to embellish things. Those things most people buy at the lumber store already made by a CNC machine probably in China. I would never claim otherwise and it would be cheaper then buying those items and allow for custom design. 

So lets not bash on those using a CNC just like others may not want to be bashed on for using pocket screws, dovetail jigs, power tools or in my case a SawStop. :laughing:


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## rrbrown (Feb 15, 2009)

amckenzie4 said:


> I've got to admit, I'm beginning to think there should be separate categories in competitions for CNC and non-CNC. Not because the CNC folks always win -- I doubt they do -- but because they're such different skill sets. One person uses code, and the other uses their hands on tools. Neither is better, but almost the only overlap in skill is the final product.


Very good point. 

Comparing the two in the same way just don't work.


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