# woodworking school/apprenticeship



## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Hey guys. So i've got a question and it requires ya'll to know a little bit of my background, so here goes. I'm 20 years old and have been living on my own for 3 years now and working with a small town general contractor during the summers and my off months. last winter i attended the Vermont Woodworking School and received a certificate in fine furniture and woodworking, which i got college credit for. the idea was to take this program and if i liked it, i would continue my education. upon going to this school i found that i excelled past my classmates and wasn't quite challenged enough. since it was a pretty closely knit community, we were all friends, and most of my classmates including two instructors thought it would do me a world of wonders if i went to RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) for their renowned woodworking and furniture design BFA program. they all felt that it would better suit me and my style of building. so, that being said, I've transferred to RIT. I have been attending the school for several weeks now (they run on a trimester system) and am having a very difficult go of it. I'm finding it overwhelming, frustrating, and outright depressing. I have never done well with general education classes, i learned that in high school. I've been put into several design classes as well as a drawing class. I can see the value of the design classes however, the one is very confusing. the drawing class however? i'll say it, i suck @$$ at it, i've never been good at drawing, let alone, charcoal drawing, figure drawing, etc. I am very good at perspective, orthographic, etc. i have to take 3 of these classes( drawing, 2D design and 3D design), which to me seems like a little bit much. so all in all. i'd rather be roofing for 14 hours a day than being here at this school, that's how discouraged i am. my question to you guys is, is there a school that might be better catered to my needs yet still up there on the professional level? I have a huge interest in buisness classes, marketing classes, website building, orthographic drawing classes etc. but would like it to be geared towards woodworking, not just a broad general audience. I also know it's the modern day society and apprenticeships aren't something you really come by anymore, but i feel that from what i've heard, a several year apprenticeship with the right person would be exactly what i need. i had wanted to get a BFA because i know these days, people see that and they automatically respect you, i figured it also might be a good backup in case i can't make a living with this woodworking thing. take a look at my website to see the kind of stuff i do www.TJGwoodworking.com i might be just venting a little bit with all this but i was wondering if you guys had any thoughts or comments or suggestions. anything would be greatly appreciated. Happy holidays.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Well I looked at your web site. You said you are 20 yrs old? Wow kid you got skills. You defiantly have wood in you veins. Great work and great story. You sound like you know what you want. When I was your age I hated woodworking now I can't live without it that's all I think about. Glad your in school. Keep up the good work.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks alot dominick, it's always nice to hear that.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Your welcome. Your work at your age is far more superior than most. Show off :laughing:


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

First off, I agree with the others -- your work is gorgeous!

Here's my take: this is going to be long, because higher education is a complicated subject for me.

First, a short background on me. I'm 34. I'm finishing my BS this year, after 15 years. (Finally!) I've dropped out three or four times. I've been working in the IT field for 11 years, though, so I don't feel too bad about it.

There are some people school doesn't work for. I'm one of them. As I said to someone this semester, "When I'm taking classes, it colors everything else in my life. The color it adds is 'hate'." I'm finishing because, in my field, it's pretty hard to get a job without a degree of some sort, especially when the economy is this bad. But it's been an uphill battle all the way, and I haven't accomplished anything, at home or at work, outside the class I'm taking this semester.

So: Do I think it's worth finishing school for _you_? That's a lot harder to say. I think it depends a lot on what you want to do.

I could go through the pros and cons, but I expect you've already done that. The first real question is, "do you need it?" Are you ever planning to take a 9-5 job? If so, you probably need a degree, and it probably doesn't much matter which one for most jobs. Are you planning to spend your life working for yourself making furniture? Taking some business classes would be a good idea, but you might not need the entire degree. 

The second big question is "what are you getting out of it?" It sounds like you'll learn drawing. Almost everyone sucks at drawing when they start -- that's what the class is for! You may learn techniques you hadn't thought about or seen before, and you'll likely learn a lot about the business aspect of woodworking that you didn't already know.

Now. Buyers aren't mostly going to look at your resume: they're going to look to see if they like what you're building. The resume mostly helps when dealing with other professionals; they can see at a glance who you've studied with, and what sorts of things you're likely to know. I don't know how common that is in woodworking, but certainly in tech fields what school you went to matters.

Last off, here are a few things that helped me get through the process.
1) If you need time off, take time off. You do no one, especially yourself, any good if school depresses you to the point that you fail out.
2) Find a good academic advisor. It doesn't need to be someone whose job is advising you -- if you've got a professor you really like, ask them if you can meet up with them a couple times each semester to talk about the program, and where you're having trouble. They may be able to help. The most helpful person I found wasn't even in my department, he just knew the system because he'd been around forever. If one of the instructors you liked at VWS knows the RIT program, call him or her up!
3) Think hard about WHY you're in school. Mine isn't a popular view (especially since I work in academia!), but if you don't know why you're there, get out. Go do something else for a year or two while you work it out. School is too expensive to stay there if you don't know what you're trying to get out of it!
4) Do NOT take summer classes! If school is driving you crazy, you need that decompression time. You'll just get worse if you don't take it. Spend your summers building and selling.
5) If you're having trouble in a class, go talk to the prof early. Most professors will cut you some slack if you go talk to them. Don't make excuses, just explain what the problem is: "I'm having a lot of trouble with this class, in these specific areas: what can I do to get myself a passing grade?" If you catch them early in the semester, they'll be a lot happier to help than if it's the week before the final.
6) Think about being a part time student. If you can afford it (it does usually wind up taking a lot longer and being a little more expensive), you might find it easier to take a couple classes each semester and spend the rest of your time working. I do.

And good luck! On balance, I think school is worth it for most people. And even if you decide not to pursue a degree, you can always keep taking continuing ed classes for things you want to learn.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

Nice Web-Site showing excellent work.

It is great to do and pursue something you are passionate about.

In the US, this is a difficult business other than sales or interior design, as most furniture manufacturing migrated to Asia. Although the business originates here, most of the design, prototyping, upscale to manufacturing and actual building takes place off-shore.

A degree is really important if you wish to pursue a long term career, it opens a lot of doors. Unfortunately, especially in the US, a lot of the education you receive will not apply directly to the direction you wish to follow in your ideal career.

Suggest you go to http://www.indeed.com/ and type in furniture related keywords to look at the kind of jobs the market asks for and then look at the qualifications they ask for. This will give you an idea where to aim.


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## Michael A. (Dec 9, 2011)

Tyler: at your age your workmanship is way above average, if I were 20 again this is what I would do. Look in the yellow pages and find 3or 4 of the top interior designers in your area, they are the ones with the biggest adds, contact them one by one and try to get an appointment. Take your laptop ,so you can show your work, take a small sample of your work, dress neat and above all be completely honest with them. The top interior designers is where the big money is in custom made furniture is, Their clients dont care how bad the economy is, they want unique and beautiful furniture in their homes. you will only get better with age. just my two cents!!


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

wow, thanks for the input. Alex, thank you for taking the time to write that fairly lengthly response, i've read over it a few times actually. it's nice to see that i'm not the only one that absolutely hates school. I think you've brought up alot of fairly good points about school that i hadn't really thought of before. one that really hits home is the point regarding if i ever plan on working a 9-5 office job. After thinking about this, i realized that i never want to work in the office every day though i don't mind spending a day or 2 doing website updates and bookeeping. I would love to just open up shop and build furniture for the rest of my life. I think at first it would be harder to open shop and that's what i've got the carpentry job for, to build up some money and overhead to get the shop opened. I think the reason why i was/am pursueing a BA was as a backup mostly, you know, in case i fail as a woodworker and need to go somewhere else. if i lived in a perfect world, i would be taking all woodworking classes, buisness, marketing, and anything that pertains to woodworking, and leave out anything i don't like, such as drawing and liberal arts. I do love learning. I'm very fond of learning, in fact if i had to repeat my last winter at VWS, i would. i guess you could say i love learning when it's what i enjoy. I did actually take a year off school after high school. i knew i didn't want to go to college, at the time i had said i was never going to go. i worked for a year, and found my passion for woodworking and that was what got me started. I really appreciate your response, it has given me alot of insight and is making me think about certain things. 

WillemJM, thank you for the input, I took a look at this website and it's actually pretty interesting to see what kind of jobs are out there in todays market that pertain to woodworking. I am actually seeing that the sit-down office jobs require a BA yet the jobs like cabinet maker do not, it's actually quite interesting. I bookmarked it cause i think it'll provide to be very useful.

Michael, your idea is pretty interesting to say the least, i have to say i kind of like that idea. i may look into that at some point.

Thanks again guys.


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## amckenzie4 (Apr 29, 2010)

One more note. OK, two more notes.

If I had my time to do over, I'm not sure I'd go to college at all. Knowing what I know now, I suspect I'd have been better off with a vocational school, learning a trade. In the end, the pay would have been somewhat lower, but I'd have spent less years miserable, and I'd likely have been able to advance in the career.

Second: A 9-5 office job isn't a terrible thing. I don't much like my job, but it's something I can leave behind when I walk out the door. I've spent time doing data entry, time in retail, and time as a temp. (My favorite "weird temp job" was counting pallets. I spent three days in an enormous refrigerated warehouse counting all the blue pallets.) There's a lot to be said for a job like that, if it pays the bills. If I were on call all the time, or if I were in a non-union IT job and was working 80 hour weeks... THAT I wouldn't be able to stand.


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## WillemJM (Aug 18, 2011)

amckenzie4 said:


> One more note. OK, two more notes.
> 
> If I had my time to do over, I'm not sure I'd go to college at all. Knowing what I know now, I suspect I'd have been better off with a vocational school, learning a trade. In the end, the pay would have been somewhat lower, but I'd have spent less years miserable, and I'd likely have been able to advance in the career.


I did 7 years of Engineering college overseas, Mechanical/Electrical and I'm about 6 years away from retirement. Other than opening doors of opportunity, I can honestly say that I have used the base of what was provided in college productively and built further upon it through my entire career, it was extremely useful. Something wrong with the system today though, most of the graduates I work with have lost the fundamentals and their degree is just a degree, they do not use it.

Times are changing, I'm with a big fortune 500 and we don't hire mechanics, electricians, millwrights any longer, if they do not have an associates degree.

Also, the US is changing, the middle class is disappearing slowly. While it is not necessary, a degree sure helps.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

interesting thoughts. perhaps if i come to the conclusion that i no longer wish to stay enrolled in a BA program, i should force myself to at least get an associates then?


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## Glidden (Dec 2, 2010)

In my opinion education is never wasted. You may not use everything you learn, I'm a good example of that working a job that isn't even remotely related to my degree, but a perspective employee or client will want to see you get at least some sort of degree because it shows commitment to a goal. And even though you may think that owning and operating your own shop means just woodworking you'll be surprised the amount of time spent going through finances, putting together designs, even making bids for projects. I'd say keep going with your education and even though you may not see an immediate benefit you will likely look back years from now and be glad you stuck it out.


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## Aureliconstruct (Dec 14, 2011)

You have done a good job. Do not give up what you like to do. If anything keep it as a hobby.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

I would suggest to get as much education as you can afford and have the time for. If woodworking is your passion, one of the top schools have an excellent program. Check out North Bennet Street School and the gallery.

Finding work with a good woodworking shop is the best experience. Learn from those that can mentor you. 












 







.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Glidden, I am well aware that running my own shop consists of much more than just woodworking, this is why i said i wanted to take buisness, martketing, and web designing classes. I know that i will need to catalog stuff, do bookkeeping and update my website on a regular basis. i enjoy doing this because it pertains to woodworking and to me, that's part of the whole experience. I've already got spreadsheets of all of my bowls and furniture, they list item numbers, the sale price, if it's been sold or not, and if so to whom, finish used, wood used. etc. at the bottom i have tallies to figure out what my total income is and what i've spent in materials. in 2011 i've made $965 on bowls, my lifetime is $1150. I find that the times where you're either not motivated to build anything or are screwing up, that's when you do the bookwork. just my opinion though.

Thank you for all of the opinions. I know our education system isn't great anymore and i think it's important to see what people feel about it these days


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

Tyler---You are enrolled in ,possibly, the finest woodworking school in this nation.

Others have said this---most furniture is now made overseas---only the finest craftsmen can make a good living building furniture today.

You are on the track to be one of the finest---that is what graduates from RIT

Stop whining about how hard it is--buck up and be one of the finest craftsmen in the country--

You love wood and have the opportunity to be a success---pay the price of unpleasant lessons and be the best----Mike---


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## Birddog (Dec 5, 2011)

mikeswoods said:


> Tyler---You are enrolled in ,possibly, the finest woodworking school in this nation.
> 
> Others have said this---most furniture is now made overseas---only the finest craftsmen can make a good living building furniture today.
> 
> ...


the only thing I would add to this is that things change, careers that were highly respected or did not need a degree may change over time. You may need that certificate and/or training 20 years from now. Once you have it it cannot be taken away.
-Jeff


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## Mandres (Sep 6, 2011)

How much is a bachelors in fine arts from RIT going to cost you? Do you think you'll get enough out of the program to justify the cost? That's a very difficult question to answer, but for a lot of the fine arts/history/philosophy majors I've known it was definitely a waste of money. 

You aren't looking to enter a field that's gated by requiring a degree the way law, medicine, banking, etc. are so you don't really need it. You will be judged, hired, fired or suceed/fail in your own business based only on how well and how fast you can produce results. A sheepskin on the wall is nice to have, and will help you if you ever decide to teach instead of produce, but you have to very carefully weigh what you are getting against how much it's costing you.


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Mandres,
I have put a lot of thought about the cost into the equation. For the average rit student, tuition is 40k a year. However, rit has a sister college called ntid which is national technical institute for the deaf, I happen to be severly hard of hearing. For deaf and hard of hearing students, tuition is slashed to aprx 12k a year. I had debated whether or not it would be worht the money and what I came out with was, if I can go to school without any loans, it's worth it. The reason being is woodworking isn't a profession where I will make millions and am able to repay those loans quickly like if I'm a dr or lawyer, etc. So with that being said, I have been able to go to school for a little over a year now and so far I only have 2500 in loans (VWS was 24k a year) so I think for the price, it's probably worth I. If I wasn't hard of hearing, I wouldn't be at this school right now, without a doubt.

Mike, 
I like the way you put your response. I feel you might be right and that I need tot suck it up. I think that's one reason I'm here, I want to be respected by other craftsmen and considered a master craftsman. 

I'm really likeing all of these responses, i'm seeing that most people reccomend a degree of some sort. I'm glad to see that people still think it's possible to make a living without a degree as well. Keep these thoughts coming, I'm sure other people are interested in this topic too


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

accidentally posted twice.


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## crosley623 (Dec 14, 2007)

I spent 6 years getting a construction engineering degree, used it to get a good job for 5 years and now im back working with my hands. My degree is currently worthless, but looking back I don't regret it one bit.
My opinion is that degree or not you will most likely not be able to make a living selling your work until a solid base is built. Don't take this as a shot at your work because it's not, I'm just saying that it takes time. The one thing about the RIT program is that you can practically walk into any fine furniture shop in the country and get a job. From here you can work and continue to learn until your name gets spread and then head out on your own.

How you liking Rochester? I just moved here in July. 


Andy


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## tymann09 (Mar 4, 2011)

Andy, interesting point about being able to get a woodworking job anywhere i go with this degree. i suppose that's somthing to keep in mind.

As far as rochester goes, honestly i absolutely hate it haha. i grew up east of albany in a pretty rural area and am used to mountains, dirt roads, etc. the past few years i've lived in vermont which is even more rural than where i grew up. i knew that when i came to RIT i wouldn't like the area but i tried to see past that. to me, the climate here is pretty miserable. to some people it doesn't bother them though. the culture is quite different too. i'm not quite used to it yet


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## mikeswoods (May 18, 2009)

You are setting a course for self employment---Hopefully you will work for and with a master or two on the road to your goal---

You must learn marketing and work on building a reputation for making the 'bragging rights' products that warrant the high prices required to survive ----


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## Lancer33 (Dec 9, 2011)

Having lived my life on the other side of the fence: started working as a press operator, wrangled my way into an apprentice program in tool and die making and over the course of 30 years managed to become General Manager for an electronics company. In retrospect I wish I had taken the time to pursue a degree. Doors would have opened much easier. If you can afford it stay in and complete what you have started as you certainly appear to have the talent.


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## Dominick (May 2, 2011)

Lancer33 said:


> Having lived my life on the other side of the fence: started working as a press operator, wrangled my way into an apprentice program in tool and die making and over the course of 30 years managed to become General Manager for an electronics company. In retrospect I wish I had taken the time to pursue a degree. Doors would have opened much easier. If you can afford it stay in and complete what you have started as you certainly appear to have the talent.


Lancer not to change subject, but I worked in a steel co. For 10 years operating and setting up punch presses. Minster & bruderer all progressive die. Just thought I would share. Sorry.


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