# First table saw, I'm totally lost



## charlo489 (Oct 14, 2015)

Ok I've been wanting a table saw for 10 years now. I'm 30 and I'm tired of waiting. Thing is, I don't have 3000$ to drop on a high end saw. This leaves me with 3 options and I don't know what to do

1) used :I've been checking the used market a lot for the past 3-4 years and while I can certainly find a few delta unisaws and general, most don't have a guard or a riving knive. I'm a pilot and can't afford to lose my fingers so I guess a riving knive is a must ?

2) buying a 800-1000$ brand new saw. I was looking at the ridgid 4512 or the steel city 45925G-A36, both are the same price here and I prefer the steel city for it's granite table top and sturdy looking build. However, I've read extensively on both saws and obviously, they are far from perfect and many have returned both of them. I am aware that these returns don't represent the majority but still...

3) wait until I get more cash and get a sawstop. This option is cool but at the same time, having to wait a few more years does suck, I'm putting aside many projects because I don't have a table saw or even a circular saw !


Should I favor the 1000$ table saw with a riving knive or get an old 350 or unisaw ? I'm not making a living out of furniture making but I do want a table saw that will make a clean, straight cut. Is it possible to achieve that with a simple ridgid or steel city ?

Thanks for your input, much appreciated !


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## Ruth P (Sep 18, 2017)

Hi Charlo489,
I'm a newbie on this site, and maybe my answer is sacrilege to true woodworkers, but if as you say, you're not trying to make a living building furniture, why not get a jobsite table saw like a DeWalt DW745, listed at Lowe's for $579? (I don't work for Lowe's or DeWalt.) It'll have up to date safety equipment (though it's not a SawStop), has power and accuracy and a good warranty which is an argument against buying used. You can use a portable stand, or build a solid workbench to mount it to.
Just my 2 cents.


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## retfr8flyr (Aug 7, 2013)

Unless something has changed, Steel City when out of business. I think the current best bang for your buck is the Grizzly G0771Z http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-T-Shaped-Fence/G0771Z It has a riving knife and a good blade guard, as well as being a good all around saw. Knowing how much your digits are required for your job, I am a retired pilot, if it were me, I would spend the extra and get a SawStop. No matter how careful you are, with power tools anything can always happen and the piece of mind of the SawStop safety feature is worth the wait.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*I own 4 types of table saws ....?*

I have a Powermatic 5 HP cabinet saw, a monster. I have several Craftsman contractor saws bolted together, the Sawzilla in my avatar. I have a discontinued Craftsman Hybrid saw. I also have a great Bosch job site saw.

I could easily get by with the Craftsman hybrid and no other saws. It has a 1 3/4 HP motor, great Biesemeyer fence and outfeed support built in. I run it on 120 volts, so 220 supply is not needed. It listed for $1100 new, I paid $500.00 for a floor model. 

Your needs would probably be best met by the Grizzly hybrid, under $900 or so including shipping. 
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-T-Shaped-Fence/G0771Z


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

" I'm not making a living out of furniture making but I do want a table saw that will make a clean, straight cut. Is it possible to achieve that with a simple ridgid or steel city ?"

I am not even going to bother answering any of your other questions as I think the answer to this question will provide answers to all questions.

The cost of a saw is not what determines its ability to make a clean, straight cut. Most saws on the market(probably all) have this ability. Some are easier to use, some are safer and others have other benefits.

If you had of been reading the posts on this forum for very long you would know that many, many people have bought used $200/$250 and up machines and had very good success with their wood cutting.

There are two main things that determine the saws cutting ability: proper setup and the operators skill.

You do not say where you live so it is impossible to see the used market in your area. That is where I would start looking.

George


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Economically, probably your best bet would be to get a used Unisaw and if it doesn't have a guard buy a guard and put it on the saw if you think you need it. Often you can find these parts on ebay. Experienced craftsman tend to do away with with the guards because they get in the way a lot so there should be a lot of them around.


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## saplingamongwoodmen (Sep 17, 2017)

This may be a dangerous place to post this since i never met the dude who owned the tools. But if your going to be waiting some time anyway get on Craig's list. I acquired three table saws, a Rigid, a Dewalt and something else, with several guards etc, along with two compound miter saws, and several large totes of drill motors grinders sanders and hand tools and a dust collector system. All for the $50.00 in gas to go pick them up.


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## gj13us (Apr 19, 2016)

I think quality of blade has a lot to do with quality of cut.


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## Catpower (Jan 11, 2016)

Unisaw or a Grizzly is what I would look for, SawStops are neat, but in the 40-50 years of wood working I have only had one mishap with a table saw or any other wood working machine, and that was on the 4th of July weekend this year, and it was caused by me no one to blame just not paying attention and got a hell of a kick back, tried to bury the push stick into the heel of my thumb, and it still hurts

A riving knife might have prevented it


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## Toolman50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Steve Neul said:


> Economically, probably your best bet would be to get a used Unisaw and if it doesn't have a guard buy a guard and put it on the saw if you think you need it. Often you can find these parts on ebay. Experienced craftsman tend to do away with with the guards because they get in the way a lot so there should be a lot of them around.


I know this goes against strong safety practices, but I've found that some safeties actually caused me problems. The clear plastic shields get dusty immediately and will start to haze in time which hurts visibility. The splitter or riving knife is in my way for many cuts and must be removed. Taking it on and off becomes a hassle so I leave it off. 
Safe practices by the operator trumps any safety feature a manufacture can install. 
Be smart and be safe. :thumbsup:


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*agree and disagree*



Catpower said:


> Unisaw or a Grizzly is what I would look for, SawStops are neat, but in the 40-50 years of wood working I have only had one mishap with a table saw or any other wood working machine, and that was on the 4th of July weekend this year, and it was caused by me no one to blame just not paying attention and got a hell of a kick back, tried to bury the push stick into the heel of my thumb, and it still hurts
> 
> A riving knife might have prevented it


I agree! Because the riving knife or splitter covers the back side of the blade that accident or "lapse of focus" could not have happened.



Toolman50 said:


> I know this goes against strong safety practices, but I've found that some safeties actually caused me problems. The clear plastic shields get dusty immediately and will start to haze in time which hurts visibility. The splitter or riving knife is in my way for many cuts and must be removed. Taking it on and off becomes a hassle so I leave it off.
> Safe practices by the operator trumps any safety feature a manufacture can install.
> Be smart and be safe. :thumbsup:


I disagree!
Safe practices are always a must, but for that one time, "lapse of focus" you can't go back and get a do over. The splitter keeps the workpiece from moving away from the fence at the rear of the blade, a cause of most kickbacks. It is physically impossible for the work to rotate, and come up and over the rear portion of the blade and it's not a safety gimick by any means. I removed the plastic blade cover on mine by drilling out the rivets leaving just the plate and no anti-kickback pawls. By having no blade cover to get in the way of narrow rips it works much better, BUT there is still the danger of your fingers entering the "red zone", the red painted area on the throat plate. That's when it's time to grab the push block and continue moving the work past the blade and out the far side safely.

The newer saws make the removal and reinstallation of the riving knife much easier and with no tedious adjustments required. That is not the case with the older Craftsman contractor type saws which I use almost exclusively. It's a real PITA to get it back on and parallel with the blade, so I rarely remove it. When I do need to make a cut like a 2 cut rabbet, I use the newer Craftsman hybrid which has an easy on/easy off riving knife.

I would not personally use a table saw without a riving knife or splitter in place, unless it was absolutely necessary. JMO.:wink2:


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## Terry Q (Jul 28, 2016)

I was recently reading a review on the Rockler miter fold dado blade and one of the purchasers was really pissed at Rockler because he couldn't use the dado blade since it was incompatible with the sawstop dado brake. The main reason he was angry was because he spent thousands on the sawstop saw on recommendations from his Rockler store only to discover it had severe limitations. You can't remove the brake if it isn't compatible with what you want to do. 

For the above reasons, and possible false brake triggers ruining a brake and a blade for no reason, the sawstop is not for me.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.


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## CaptainMike (Aug 27, 2017)

I have a Bosch contractor saw I take to jobsites and it works fine. In my shop is a DeWalt hybrid that works better. The only reason I would upgrade my shop saw would be for a wider fence. Some of the major keys to success, IMHO, is sharp quality blades, proper technique (including keeping you saw tuned), and sturdy work supports. Good luck!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*table saw used without a splitter or blade guard*

I started this challenge to see what methods other woodworkers would use when making this leg brace, a design from Lola Ranch's Bret:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/leg-brace-alternative-method-challenge-33352/











My friend mdntrdr used a RAS for his approach, which I found really scary!










There are just times when the safety equipment gets in the way, so you must be cautious when making these type of cuts. Experience also helps ...... just sayin'


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Toolman50 said:


> I know this goes against strong safety practices, but I've found that some safeties actually caused me problems. The clear plastic shields get dusty immediately and will start to haze in time which hurts visibility. The splitter or riving knife is in my way for many cuts and must be removed. Taking it on and off becomes a hassle so I leave it off.
> Safe practices by the operator trumps any safety feature a manufacture can install.
> Be smart and be safe. :thumbsup:


I know what you mean. I've had a Unisaw for 17 years and the guard has never been on the saw. The saw I had before that was a Craftsman. It also came with a guard and since I had it I went ahead and put it on the saw. On about the third or fourth cut the board closed up behind the blade and pinched the guard. In the process of trying to get the board loose from the guard it nearly beat me half to death. After that the guard came off and went straight in the trash. It was the first and one of the few times I've been hurt on a table saw. 

Usually when you get hurt you are doing something you know better and can almost see it coming.


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## Cowboy18 (Aug 21, 2017)

I do make my living with my saw's. And at one time I had tens of thousands of dollars tied up in the latest greatest equipment, a whole shop full of it.
When my house burned down, the shop was close enough it went as well. Along with all that high dollar equipment. Now I got maybe ten grand worth of used and cheap new equipment. And I'm making the same money and same quality stuff I did when I had all the best.


I have a pistol range setup in the back of my land. A friend of mine showed up with his New SW 10MM Automatic "Nickle Plated" cannon. He took his time and squeezed off a magazine of ammo at the target. Managing to put three or four rounds into the kill zone on the target. Then proudly asked could I match that with my Ruger Redhawk 44 Magnum, Single action cowboy pistol. I pulled my pistol raised and fired one round, hitting dead center Bullseye. Then holstered my weapon, smiled and said, that's all the practice I need today. My point? If ya don't know how to use the tool, it won't matter how fancy it is.


You can't do this stuff in the city!


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*17 years experience counts!*



Steve Neul said:


> I know what you mean. I've had a Unisaw for 17 years and the guard has never been on the saw. The saw I had before that was a Craftsman. It also came with a guard and since I had it I went ahead and put it on the saw. On about the third or fourth cut the board closed up behind the blade and pinched the guard. In the process of trying to get the board loose from the guard it nearly beat me half to death. After that the guard came off and went straight in the trash. It was the first and one of the few times I've been hurt on a table saw.
> 
> Usually when you get hurt you are doing something you know better and can almost see it coming.


Most of the folks here asking questions do not have that experience.:| They may not even own a table saw like the OP asking here. So, when I post about splitters it includes my 50 years of experience using a table saw, both with and without the splitter.
I know real well about kickbacks and how and why they happen.
Your experience with a board closing on the splitter/blade guard, is not really a kickback, but it could have been without it. Reaction wood is not possible to predict, so it can happen at any time.

In my case I don't use a blade guard as it just gets in the way. I made a little laminated wood blade cover on a friction bolt mounted to my splitters that I can adjust to full up or down right on the workpiece and that works great ... for me. In the full up position it still allows for maximum depth of cut so there not that limitation.

Sop safety is a personal thing and I know my buddy who makes raised panel doors doesn't use a blade guard or splitter on the table saw, nor a blade guard over his 16" Porter jointer, and has exposed belts running outside his planer etc. He works long hours and has been doing this for 30 or more years. He still has 9.5 fingers.... Shapers are one of the most dangerous machines, just ask him. :|


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## gj13us (Apr 19, 2016)

And sometimes accidents just happen. Almost happen. One evening about 11 years ago, I was working with the table saw. I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS unplug when I am working around the blade. Always. Except for this one time. And I was aware that I hadn't unplugged it. I literally thought to myself, 'didn't unplug....but this is o.k....nothing will go wrong...' 

I was measuring the height of the blade. My daughter was about four years old and had been playing in an adjoining room. She walks in to tell me something. And without my noticing she reaches up and asks, "What's this, daddy?" and touches the ON/OFF switch. 

I don't know who screamed louder. I whirl around from the saw and yank the cord out of the wall. She runs from the room. I had felt the wind from the carbide teeth whoosh on my knuckles. 

To both of our credit, neither of us cried. Moral of the story: take your pick.


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## Cowboy18 (Aug 21, 2017)

Half the safety stuff on tools these days are ment to keep the manufacturer from being sued by fools that hurt themselves. Some safety measures make good sense, while other just get in the way and cause problems. Until someone learns how to fix stupid, I don't recon any tool can be made safe enough.


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## charlo489 (Oct 14, 2015)

Well guys, I did contact grizzly and the G0771Z might fit the bill. They do ship to Canada afterall, it's 160$ usd but with the taxes and duties, the saw will probably cost close to 1300 $ USD delivered. Not cheap by any means. 

I do have a local guy selling steel city. It seems that in 2015 it went out of business but their website is still up and running. Should I avoid that company ? I'm pretty sure their quality is on par with grizzly, I guess they're all made at the same chinese factory.


So far, the grizzly is interesting but I end up paying a lot for duties and shipping. For the same price, I could get a local full blown steel city cabinet saw or for 700$ USD, I could get their nice contractor saw. I'm gonna check my local general dealer for a 50-200R table.

I've decided that I wanted at the very least a riving knife since I'm new to woodworking and can't afford to lose a finger. This requirement makes buying a used table pretty much impossible since 99% of them don't have those knives


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

woodnthings said:


> Most of the folks here asking questions do not have that experience.:| They may not even own a table saw like the OP asking here. So, when I post about splitters it includes my 50 years of experience using a table saw, both with and without the splitter.
> I know real well about kickbacks and how and why they happen.
> Your experience with a board closing on the splitter/blade guard, is not really a kickback, but it could have been without it. Reaction wood is not possible to predict, so it can happen at any time.
> 
> ...


A lot depends on the amount of common sense the operator has and seems to be a lost art these days. If a person is uneasy running a saw especially if they have nobody to teach them how then by all means a guard should be used. I worked with one guy that could have benefited from one. He was ripping a used board which had a staple sticking out of it and when the staple reached the top the board stopped so he reached behind the blade to lift the board off and when it kicked back he lost his thumb. Had he had the common sense he wouldn't have been cutting used wood and for sure wouldn't reach behind the blade. 

It's funny you should mention 17 years as that was how old I was when I bought that Craftsman saw that tried to beat me to death. At that age I lacked the experience and patience to shut the saw off and pry the board off the saw.


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## charlo489 (Oct 14, 2015)

Can someone offer his opinion on this saw ? It's in my city so picking it up won't be a problem. 

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-outils-elec...cie-cabinet-10-steel-city-guide-50/1291299305

The only thing is that it only has a splitting knive and the 50" extension is too long for my basement, I would need to remove the extension and cut the fence rails so that it will fit in my room. I don't know if it would be wise getting a steel city works considering the company situation right now


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

I would like to join in with a different perspective - a woodworking novice who just bought a new table saw. I bought a Bosch GTS-1041A-09 REAXX table saw this past Spring. It is similar to the SawStop job site saw. I highly recommend it, but I may be the last person in the US to get one for a while, due to litigation between Bosch and SawStop. I bought the REAXX for its safety feature - I play piano and work with computers. Besides, I can't count past nine. 

Here is some advice for @charlo489 from me, a novice:

** Before you do anything, be sure you know how to be safe with your table saw.* 
Go to your public library and borrow whatever they have on table saws and general woodworking. I borrowed over 25 books from our local library. It takes time to read and internalize the safety information they contain, but it is so worth the effort. 

** Safe woodworking takes time. If you want to avoid injury, you must accept the fact that you have to trade time for safety. *
_Example:_ I have different push blocks, including GRRR-Rippers. To use the GRRR-Rippers, I must remove the blade guard and the anti-kickback pawls and partly retract the riving knife. When I use other push blocks, a push stick, or the miter gauge, then I take the time to put them back. I could make the cuts with the bare blade and try be careful (after all, I have a blade-retracting REAXX saw!), but one mistake or accident wipes out all the time that might have been saved. I simply accept the fact that safety takes time.
_Note:_ You can save a lot of time by planning your cuts carefully to minimize the number of table saw configuration changes you require.

** Woodworking creates unhealthy sawdust. Deal with it.*
** Always wear your safety gear. ATGATT. (All The Gear, All The Time)*
Always wear a safety mask when you are cutting, sanding, etc. 
Always wear hearing protection and eye protection when you work with power tools, even when you think you won't need it, or even for "just one cut."

** Woodworking takes maintenance.*
Sharp, clean tools are much safer. Yeah, you gotta clean your table saw blade from time to time. You gotta replace it or get it sharpened from time to time. You gotta sharpen your chisels and planes, etc. Know how to clean and sharpen your chisels, planes, etc. Know when to clean, sharpen, or replace your saw blades.

** Budget for accessories - both safety and general woodworking.*
You are concerned about the cost of the saw, but you will also need safety accessories - dust masks, as well as eye and ear protection. Don't skimp - your long term health is at stake. Think about dust collection, too. Get what you need. Get quality. You will also need many other accessories. Wood for projects, wood for jigs, wood for testing joints, fittings, etc. wood for scrap, etc. Clamps, glue, bits, blades, sandpaper, finishes, etc. etc. etc. They add up. Sometimes cheap is good, sometimes not. I got a Forrest Woodworker II blade for my table saw and do not regret the high cost; cuts come out finish-ready. Other tools I buy from Harbor Freight.

@charlo489 asked about which saw to buy, and expressed concerns about his/her budget. Based on my excellent experience with the Bosch REAXX saw, I would say to buy a Bosch REAXX if you can find one. If not, I would wait and save for a SawStop. If you want to buy a new table saw _without_ blade safety retraction, then consider a Bosch 4100-09, which has all the clever usability features and accessories as my REAXX saw.


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## JWRW (Nov 12, 2018)

I own the Ridge you are talking about and have had it for 15 years or so. I have no complaints and it still cuts straight and true. I have ran a lot of boards thru it. awesome saw


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## allpurpose (Mar 24, 2016)

Twice I knicked my index finger with my old Craftsman saw and both times it was me trying to cut thin stock and not paying enough attention to what I was doing. I have about $250 total invested in the saw and a new Align-a-rip fence. Two things made a huge difference in the quality of the cuts aside from the fence.. Good quality blades and the setup of having a digital angle thingie..and a miterset to make sure the miter angles are set properly and secure..ok, 3 things.. A good overhead light also helps so you're not working half blind.. I probably ought to use a riving knife, but I don't and probably won't any time soon..
Now to only find the motivation again...


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## canarywood1 (Jun 9, 2016)

charlo489 said:


> Well guys, I did contact grizzly and the G0771Z might fit the bill. They do ship to Canada afterall, it's 160$ usd but with the taxes and duties, the saw will probably cost close to 1300 $ USD delivered. Not cheap by any means.
> 
> I do have a local guy selling steel city. It seems that in 2015 it went out of business but their website is still up and running. Should I avoid that company ? I'm pretty sure their quality is on par with grizzly, I guess they're all made at the same chinese factory.
> 
> ...



First thing you need to know is a riving knife is NOT going to keep you from losing a finger, we were using table saws a long time before they finally made riving knives more or less standard equipment, and i think it's safe to say most of us still have all of our digits.


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## GeorgeC (Jul 30, 2008)

This is an old thread. I wonder what he wound up buying. I hate it when people ask questions and then never post the results.


George


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## Pineknot_86 (Feb 19, 2016)

I'm on my third TS and never used the blade guard as it got nasty dirty and I couldn't see how it was cutting. I kept it in case I ever sell it- rests nicely on the side of the TS cabinet. The most important safety item is the area behind your eyes and between your ears. I sold custom and factory cabinetry. The custom shop had a huge TS with infeed/outfeed tables all around the main part of the TS. There was no blade guard. If the state inspector came by- the guard had been removed to change blades.
BTW, my first TS was a Craftsman contractor saw that my late FIL used- made some nice basic furniture with it.


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Why not a Bosch , etc tablesaw....


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## Rebelwork (Jan 15, 2012)

Riving knife doesn't guarantee you won't get hurt.


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