# Undecided on red oak table finish



## Sheriff420 (May 22, 2014)

I recently bought some overpriced red oak boards from Lowes and made a dining room table with them.
I still haven't cut the legs down to length or notched them for the cross braces on the bottom but I don't have much more to do before finishing. 

I'm undecided on how to finish the table.
I've been told that tung oil won't hold up to the abuse that a dining table gets put through but I've heard that it looks really good.
I've read that stain then varnish is a good combo but also isn't very tough.
I've done stain and polyurethane a few times and I like the results but I haven't done it on oak before.
The original plan was stain and rattle can polyurethane (thin even coats and no brush strokes with the rattle can). 
Does anyone have any advise on a tough coating that would hold up and look good at the same time. I'm a fan of the stains that have a hint of red in them.

Here's my progress so far


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

We have an introduction section where you can say a few words about yourself. If you fill out your profile in your "User Control Panel", you can list any hobbies, experience, occupation, or if retired…from what, or other facts. You can also list your general geographical location which would be a help in answering some questions. In doing that your location will show under your username when you post. 

Finishing Oak with polyurethane is no different that other woods. One problem you may run into is cross grain expansion and contraction that you limited by pocket screwing the breadboard ends on. You would also be fortunate if the top doesn't bow from using minimum clamps and pocket screws.

Breadboard ends should be installed with elongated holes to allow the boards in the top to be able to move. A single screw into each board in the middle will allow it to move in either direction. There are several ways to install breadboard ends, you can Google it or look on You Tube.






















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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Your biggest problem will be screwing the breadboard ends on the table. Normally that is done with a tongue and groove joint and it's not glued to allow for the wood to expand and contract. From where you are I would leave it alone and address that problem if and when that happens. What is expected to happen is when the wood on the top shrinks the screws holding the ends will cause the top to crack.

There is nothing wrong with using tung oil for a finish for a table top. Pure tung oil has been used for centuries for a finish for boats. Some tung oil in the stores today are a oil/varnish mixture but still would work well for a table top. The pure tung oil would just be better. Polyurethane is also a good finish however it's very difficult to get enough finish out of a rattle can to do a table top. I think you would be better off using a wiping poly if you choose to use poly. Personally I prefer to finish with a pre-catalyzed lacquer but that is something you need spray equipment to work with.


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## Sheriff420 (May 22, 2014)

Thanks for the welcome, I registered and made this post in a bit of a hurry earlier so I didn't bother with editing my profile.

I didn't consider wiping poly for the same reason I would prefer not to brush poly on, I want a smooth/level finish. I used spray poly on my gun rack years ago and it turned out looking great but I only did one coat on it, I wonder how well it actually sealed it.

I googled breadboard ends and realized that I should have done the tongue and groove deal but I didn't know that it could be an issue when I was putting the boards together. One of these days I'll get a router bit for making the groove on tongue and groove joints. 
I don't think it would be worth it at this point to take the table apart and do it right because of all the pocket holes and because I would have to make the apron and the leg bracing shorter. How about laying a 1x4 oak board half way on the end of the boards with the other half on the breadboard end of the table then gluing and screwing it in for a little extra strength?

I didn't use any glue in the joints that are already there.

I'm also unsure of how I'm going to attach the legs since the legs are three boards that were glued together from whatever factory they came from. I would be concerned about splitting the joints with thick bolts going into the corners if I were to do the standard 45º board across the corner that is bolted to the leg with two bolts. I'm thinking about pocket screws going into the apron and the table top along with the part of the legs that I cut off being cut in a way so it goes across the corner but also fills in the gap that would be left by a straight board put there. A good way to picture what I'm trying to describe is imagine a board in the corner that lays flat on the apron along with laying flat on both sides of the leg. so I'll cut a 45º on each end of the leg brace then notch out a 90º right in the middle of that.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

You won't really be able to add anything to the top to prevent the possibility of the top cracking. What happens is the top will shrink over time and the boards on the ends don't shrink lengthwise. When the top tries to shrink and has the outer edges screwed to the perpendicular board on the end the top will crack to relieve the stress. This is why an actual breadboard end is not glued on, so it will allow the top to shrink. Where you are at I would just go ahead and use the table and replace the top someday when it presents a problem. The places that may crack you could just rip it out and add some more wood. Just keep track of what stain if any that you may use so matching a color isn't a issue. 

Mounting the legs unless you need them removable I would remove the screws from the skirt into the top in the corner and just glue the legs to skirt. You could also add corner blocks to re-enforce the joint.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

I haven't got a single table in either of my homes with a poly finish. All are wipe on and all weather anything the Thayer family throws at and on them. Stick to making it a beautiful piece and finish it as you see fit. Do some google searches on finishing. It's not just what you use but how it's applied. Poly is hard. I get that. It's just not the only aspect to consider when finishing a beautiful piece of wood. Unless it's for bowling. Other finishes are hard too. 

All table tops should be rubbed out. Spraying is no exception. You've got a great looking table make it something to admire when it's touched not just seen. My tops are so flat and smooth people purr when they slide their fingers across them. It's no secret it's just been overlooked as of late. We are getting indoctrinated by the Chicken Littles and the manufacturers of finish products. We don't have to use poly! It's not the easiest to apply and it's not the best looking finish if you actually like to see the grain of the wood.

Here is an excellent way to finish. Just one of many really good ones.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/how-to-apply-wiping-varnish.aspx

Al B Thayer

Nails only hold themselves.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> There is nothing wrong with using tung oil for a finish for a table top. Pure tung oil has been used for centuries for a finish for boats. Some tung oil in the stores today are a oil/varnish mixture but still would work well for a table top. The pure tung oil would just be better.


Let me take gentle issue with some of your statements. Pure tung oil is a very poor treatment for a wood surface. It has little or no water or abrasion protection. Sure, it was used on boats years ago but that, and linseed oil were all they had. Now days, paints and other clear finishes are far superior to a true oil. Oil/varnish mixtures are superior to pure oil finishes due to the varnish that is a component of the mix. Oil/varnish mixtures will provide some protection (not as much as a varnish or poly varnish) but still will not stand up to much abuse.

For a tabletop, an oil based varnish or poly varnish is the top choice for most folks to use.

Finally, the construction used by the OP is going to be short lived. The breadboard ends--as you point out-- are going to fail because of the cross grain design without the ability to deal with seasonal movement. Additional strengthening will not prevent the movement.


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## Gilgaron (Mar 16, 2012)

You'll want to play with scrap for your finish to see what you like. I am not a pro, and have no spray equipment, so I like wipe on products. The last few stained pieces I've done I used natural Watco Danish Oil to pop the grain and seal the wood, followed by a glazing application of a gel stain. Wipe it on thin and wipe it off with a clean rag and it doesn't leave much behind, so you have clarity from the oil and some color from the gel. For a durable finish I then use General Finishes Arm R Seal. For lighter duty, burnished paste wax.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

HowardAcheson said:


> Let me take gentle issue with some of your statements. Pure tung oil is a very poor treatment for a wood surface. It has little or no water or abrasion protection. Sure, it was used on boats years ago but that, and linseed oil were all they had. Now days, paints and other clear finishes are far superior to a true oil. Oil/varnish mixtures are superior to pure oil finishes due to the varnish that is a component of the mix. Oil/varnish mixtures will provide some protection (not as much as a varnish or poly varnish) but still will not stand up to much abuse.
> 
> For a tabletop, an oil based varnish or poly varnish is the top choice for most folks to use.
> 
> Finally, the construction used by the OP is going to be short lived. The breadboard ends--as you point out-- are going to fail because of the cross grain design without the ability to deal with seasonal movement. Additional strengthening will not prevent the movement.


Howard
While I'm aware you are some guru finish guy. I'd like to take gentle issue with recommending poly for furniture finishes. Just how hard does a finish have to be? I've seen so many times recommendations to lesser experienced woodworkers to use poly and worse of all waterborne finishes. They are not the easiest to apply, don't show the beauty of the wood and can have unsatisfactory results with a ho hum look. Poly isn't better. It isn't easier. It's just slightly harder. It's also much harder to repair. As it ages it looks terrible when compared to other finishes.

Tung oil or a blend there of. Is the perfect finish for wood tables and wood furniture. 

Do you poly guys ever consider Minwax, Formby's or Watco?

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

HowardAcheson said:


> Let me take gentle issue with some of your statements. Pure tung oil is a very poor treatment for a wood surface. It has little or no water or abrasion protection. Sure, it was used on boats years ago but that, and linseed oil were all they had. Now days, paints and other clear finishes are far superior to a true oil. Oil/varnish mixtures are superior to pure oil finishes due to the varnish that is a component of the mix. Oil/varnish mixtures will provide some protection (not as much as a varnish or poly varnish) but still will not stand up to much abuse.
> 
> For a tabletop, an oil based varnish or poly varnish is the top choice for most folks to use.
> 
> Finally, the construction used by the OP is going to be short lived. The breadboard ends--as you point out-- are going to fail because of the cross grain design without the ability to deal with seasonal movement. Additional strengthening will not prevent the movement.


Tung oil wouldn't be my first choice for a finish but the OP favored it. I've used pure tung oil and I don't see any difference in the end result than old fashion varnishes. It's not as hard of a finish as some modern finishes but it is waterproof and there is no reason it shouldn't work. 

If the OP had posted his plans on the construction of the table prior to building it I'm sure we could have persuaded him to use different construction. At present since the top is already built he might as well run with it and replace the top if and when it presents a problem. We all learn from our mistakes and when the top cracks he will never forget it.


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## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Al B Thayer said:


> I would like to add one word of caution to the OP. If your not experienced with waterborne finishes. Best off if you give it a try on a large scrap piece first.* Even pros have problems with it* and we don't want your next thread to be .... eek what happened to my finish?





Al B Thayer said:


> I've seen so many times recommendations to lesser experienced woodworkers to use poly *and worse of all waterborne finishes*. They are not the easiest to apply, don't show the beauty of the wood and can have unsatisfactory results with a ho hum look.


What is your source for information like this?


















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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Tung oil wouldn't be my first choice for a finish but the OP favored it. I've used pure tung oil and I don't see any difference in the end result than old fashion varnishes. It's not as hard of a finish as some modern finishes but it is waterproof and there is no reason it shouldn't work.
> 
> If the OP had posted his plans on the construction of the table prior to building it I'm sure we could have persuaded him to use different construction. At present since the top is already built he might as well run with it and replace the top if and when it presents a problem. We all learn from our mistakes and when the top cracks he will never forget it.


All too many times an OP has an idea and a few just don't respect their wishes and choice. Also I'm positive poly didn't arrive to replace Tung oil and oil finishes. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> All too many times an OP has an idea and a few just don't respect their wishes and choice. Also I'm positive poly didn't arrive to replace Tung oil and oil finishes.
> 
> Al
> 
> Nails only hold themselves.


Tung oil is a good finish however few really have the patience to work with it. It's a very slow drying finish that most don't realize it may take a week between coats. Polyurethane is also a good finish which dries very hard and easier for those folks that might not have the means of spraying. The only thing I really have against waterborne finishes is they are so thin they take too many coats with too much sanding between coats to achieve the same finish one could do with a solvent based coating. Being a professional finisher this additional labor I can't really pass the cost on to my customers so I avoid waterborne finishes.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Tung oil is a good finish however few really have the patience to work with it. It's a very slow drying finish that most don't realize it may take a week between coats. Polyurethane is also a good finish which dries very hard and easier for those folks that might not have the means of spraying. The only thing I really have against waterborne finishes is they are so thin they take too many coats with too much sanding between coats to achieve the same finish one could do with a solvent based coating. Being a professional finisher this additional labor I can't really pass the cost on to my customers so I avoid waterborne finishes.


Well gees Steve at least steer them toward a blend or wiping varnish. I bet the OP wasn't really wanting a pure Tung oil finish and anything but poly would be better. Thomas Moser is a top of the line furniture builder and never uses any poly. Never. I have 25 year old furniture in my home I finished with varnish. 

Also I doubt if the tung is cut with solvent will it take a week to dry. Where I live in my southern home. Poly doesn't dry.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

For what its worth, poly is my go-to finish when i need something thats durable. It can be finiky going on and getting a mirror smooth finish, which is why i usually lean more to a matte finish, and it does impart a "plasticky" look, because, duh, its plastic, but it beats all ive used in terms of durability. Finishes like shellac and lacquer are fantastic in terms of looks, but tend to be less durable, especially under the abuse a kitchen table can be put under. Poly, done properly, looks great and is resistant to most things you can throw at it.

This is all my own opinions based on my own observations, so please people, dont kill me. I realize theres plenty of reasons to dislike poly and that a lot of people prefer more "traditional" woodworking techniques, but hey, i like what easy and fast.


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Al B Thayer said:


> Well gees Steve at least steer them toward a blend or wiping varnish. I bet the OP wasn't really wanting a pure Tung oil finish and anything but poly would be better. Thomas Moser is a top of the line furniture builder and never uses any poly. Never. I have 25 year old furniture in my home I finished with varnish.
> 
> Also I doubt if the tung is cut with solvent will it take a week to dry. Where I live in my southern home. Poly doesn't dry.
> 
> ...


It's really up to the OP to choose a finish that fits with their ability and needs. I use tung oil when a customer requests it but for myself I normally finish my own furniture with lacquer. I have some issues with the nitrocellulose lacquer so in recent years I've switched to pre-catalyzed lacquer. Some of the furniture I have which was done with nitrocellulose lacquer has water spots and some that the finish is thick the finish has yellowed and the Dupont furniture lacquer I started with has cracked like temperatured glass. 

The technique I use to tell when a coat of tung oil is dry enough to recoat is to briskly rub the finish with a clean cloth and see if the tung oil smell rubs off. When there is no smell it is dry enough to recoat. 

As far as varnish, it's getting harder and harder to find it in the stores where poly is everywhere and as far as appearance I can't tell very much difference between varnish and polyurethane. Varnish just has a bit warmer appearance.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> As far as varnish, it's getting harder and harder to find it in the stores where poly is everywhere and as far as appearance I can't tell very much difference between varnish and polyurethane. Varnish just has a bit warmer appearance.


Polyurethane is a kind of varnish, thats why you cant tell the difference


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

epicfail48 said:


> Polyurethane is a kind of varnish, thats why you cant tell the difference


Yes and no. Polyurethane is mostly synthetic resins where varnish is made from natural resins. Because of the synthetic resins in polyurethane it is closer related to plexiglas than varnish. The poly in the name polyurethane comes from polymer.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes and no. Polyurethane is mostly synthetic resins where varnish is made from natural resins. Because of the synthetic resins in polyurethane it is closer related to plexiglas than varnish. The poly in the name polyurethane comes from polymer.


And that's the reason I never use it.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Steve Neul said:


> It's really up to the OP to choose a finish that fits with their ability and needs. I use tung oil when a customer requests it but for myself I normally finish my own furniture with lacquer. I have some issues with the nitrocellulose lacquer so in recent years I've switched to pre-catalyzed lacquer. Some of the furniture I have which was done with nitrocellulose lacquer has water spots and some that the finish is thick the finish has yellowed and the Dupont furniture lacquer I started with has cracked like temperatured glass.
> 
> The technique I use to tell when a coat of tung oil is dry enough to recoat is to briskly rub the finish with a clean cloth and see if the tung oil smell rubs off. When there is no smell it is dry enough to recoat.
> 
> As far as varnish, it's getting harder and harder to find it in the stores where poly is everywhere and as far as appearance I can't tell very much difference between varnish and polyurethane. Varnish just has a bit warmer appearance.


Yes it is up to the OP. Which you stated in another post. 

I use Pre cat too. But those with less experience will do well to learn the use and benefits of wiping varnish. Poly will never be as good looking and beautiful. 

I don't care whats on the shelf in store. If we all follow like lemmings we end up with nothing we like.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

Al, I don't consider myself a "poly guy" per se. When the application is one that can see some abuse--like an everyday kitchen table--I consider poly varnish a good finish. I used to recommend non-poly varnish but there is little of that in today's market place. There are different manufacturers of poly finishes and some are more that satisfactory for many uses. I find Arm A Seal to perform well and produce a nice looking job.

Finally, with the current and evolving government EPA regulations, I expect there will be little or no oil based finishes available to the non-professional finishers. Even though waterborne finishes are deficient in a number of ways, we are going to have to learn to live with them and use them, IMO.


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## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

>>>> I've used pure tung oil and I don't see any difference in the end result than old fashion varnishes. It's not as hard of a finish as some modern finishes but it is waterproof and there is no reason it shouldn't work.

Steve, Tung oil and varnish are two totally different finishes. Poly varnish and non-poly varnish are film forming finishes. Tung oil does not form a film until many coat (8-10) are applied. nor is tung oil water resistant until a large number of coats are applied.


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

HowardAcheson said:


> Al, I don't consider myself a "poly guy" per se. When the application is one that can see some abuse--like an everyday kitchen table--I consider poly varnish a good finish. I used to recommend non-poly varnish but there is little of that in today's market place. There are different manufacturers of poly finishes and some are more that satisfactory for many uses. I find Arm A Seal to perform well and produce a nice looking job.
> 
> Finally, with the current and evolving government EPA regulations, I expect there will be little or no oil based finishes available to the non-professional finishers. Even though waterborne finishes are deficient in a number of ways, we are going to have to learn to live with them and use them, IMO.


I won't go with out a fight. There can't be any measurable amount of harm done by using these finishes. I wish others stood their ground when we get pushed into something so ridiculous. Hope I'm gone before it happens.

I'm not caving and I'm going to push the non poly finishes for obvious reasons. 

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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## Sheriff420 (May 22, 2014)

I only mentioned tung oil because my dad told me to check it out since he had used it before. I have used polyurethane a few times so that's what I'm used to but I'm also used to "white wood" from lowes for projects, I don't think I've ever used high quality wood on a project until now.

I stained a test piece with red mahogany stain and I'm waiting for it to dry. I remembered the other day that I stained and rattle canned some poly onto a weathered oak transition piece and I like how that turned out so I think I will go with spray poly. When I say weathered I mean it, that piece was left outside a few years ago and the weather beat it up pretty bad and turned it gray but I sanded and stained it then hit it with two or three coats of poly. The poly didn't fill the grain and I like how it has the micro pits in poly that sank into the grain. I only used that piece instead of buying one because they come in 8' pieces and I only needed one that was about 30". I was thinking about buying a 1x2 piece of oak to make one but my dad told me about the scrap piece that was left outside so I went ahead and used it.

As far as those end boards go I believe I have two options because I don't want to build a crappy table that is destined to crack. I can cut a groove in the ends as they sit with the table saw then take the router off its table and cut a tongue on the long boards or I can flip the ends around and do the same thing but then I will have the holes from the screws on the outside edge to fill. I don't think the screw holes will be that bad after the finish is applied if I were to flip them around. The reason I would consider flipping them around is because I would be worried that the top would be weak where the pocket holes already are if I were to cut a groove right across them.

If I rip out a tongue and groove for the ends then attach the legs in the corners on the inside of the apron, am I asking for disaster as far as the weight of the table only being supported by the ends of apron and the free floating breadboard end?

I really didn't know that the long boards would expand and contract enough for there to be an issue with having screws in them. That being said, I'm thinking that I should apply my finish to the breadboard ends before I attach them because if the long boards contract and there is poly in the joint then It will crack the poly.


Edit: 
I just thought of something, what If I remove the pocket screws from the end boards and just beef up the bottom with more wood? 
I'm thinking something like this (either 1x4s length-wise or a 1x8 or 1x10 width wise). That would get the screws out of the ends of the long boards but also keep the breadboard end even with the long boards along with bracing the legs at the same time. Another thing I was thinking was using that white wood because it's softer than oak and can give a little. How much will these board shrink anyway? It doesn't matter to me how ghetto it looks on the bottom, as long as what you see on top is even and not full of gaps or cracks. I could even throw plywood on the bottom to cover all the boards. But the question remains the same, if the whole bottom was covered with wood and screwed in (away from the ends) would shrinkage cause cracking since the screws would be getting pulled on sideways instead of straight from the end of the board?


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## Al B Thayer (Dec 10, 2011)

Sheriff420 said:


> I only mentioned tung oil because my dad told me to check it out since he had used it before. I have used polyurethane a few times so that's what I'm used to but I'm also used to "white wood" from lowes for projects, I don't think I've ever used high quality wood on a project until now.
> 
> I stained a test piece with red mahogany stain and I'm waiting for it to dry. I remembered the other day that I stained and rattle canned some poly onto a weathered oak transition piece and I like how that turned out so I think I will go with spray poly. When I say weathered I mean it, that piece was left outside a few years ago and the weather beat it up pretty bad and turned it gray but I sanded and stained it then hit it with two or three coats of poly. The poly didn't fill the grain and I like how it has the micro pits in poly that sank into the grain. I only used that piece instead of buying one because they come in 8' pieces and I only needed one that was about 30". I was thinking about buying a 1x2 piece of oak to make one but my dad told me about the scrap piece that was left outside so I went ahead and used it.
> 
> ...


At least I tried.

Al

Nails only hold themselves.


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