# Questions for "interviewing" sawyers...



## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

Greetings gentlemen.

I have a few trees that I'll be felling, with the intent of having them sawn for my personal use.

Having never had trees processed into lumber, I've got questions about "vetting" a potential sawyer.

I've tried to research as much as possible online, and believe most of my oaks are white oaks. (Although I understand many varieties fall into "white" oaks.") My intent is to have these milled quartersawn/riftsawn. 

A few questions...

Should a sawyer be able to determine the specific species of white oak by bark identification? My concern is mixed sub species not staining/finishing the same. The trees (30 miles north of Atlanta) still have most of their leaves.

What is the smallest diameter to be considered "acceptable milling" size?

The vast majority will be for furniture (Stickley mission style.) Knowing this, 8' pieces are rarely needed. However, my plan is to saw into 8' 6" sections. I can cut those down 4' sections after the wood has been dried. My thinking is at those lengths, fewer pieces to be moved (saves time moving fewer pieces.)

What are sawyers likely to prefer? 8' or 4'?

The majority will be milled 5/4, but will also want a few 8/4 pieces as well.

I'm quite sure I'll have more quesitons as the time draws closer, but would like some insight as to what kind of questions I need to be asking...

Thanks.

Beav


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

It's easier to tell white oak from red oak from the leaves. White oak as rounded lobes on the leaves where red oak has pointed leaves. The bark on white oak is lighter in color than red oak.


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

Got it, Steve. 

That's about my extent of knowledge between the two. (I've got a few reds as well.) I guess my question would be between the sub species of whites (white/bur/post/etc) being compatable reguarding stain & finish. I don't want to spend months working on an "herloom project," to discover that all the different pieces don't accept stain evenly.

Perhaps I'm over thinking that potential problem...:blink:

Thx
Beav


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## TomC (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not a sawyer but I have had several logs sawed. Based on the mills I have seen I would think a sawyer would prefer sawing 8 foot logs. I'm sure one of the sawyers on this site will answer your question. Tom


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## Tom the Sawyer (Sep 4, 2012)

Beav,

Dendrology (the study of trees) is a different field from being a sawyer. There are some who have interests in both fields but most of the logs we mill don't have any twigs or leaves when we get them, some don't even have bark. I believe that most sawyers could probably tell you the general species by the bark, and even more by the grain of the wood after it is opened... but it isn't a requirement of being a sawyer. In the actual processing of a log, it seldom makes a difference. 

If you need to determine the exact species, there are a number of identification manuals available or you could consult a forester in your area who should be able to identify them for you (check with your state forestry department). I have heard that there are up to thirty different species of oak here in Kansas. There are some exceptions to the rounded lobe v. pointed tip, and color, differentiations. Bark can vary somewhat within a species. A magnified cross section of the actual wood if more likely to identify a specific species. 

As far a log size goes, 8' are much preferred over 4'. In fact, many mills won't process shorter logs (may not fit the support system, the loading deck/arms, or clamping system). 8' is pretty much the standard. Those that will process 4' logs may charge more for the extra handling involved. :thumbdown:

Smallest acceptable milling size? Probably a minimum (always small end diameter) of 10-12". All logs will can yield some quarter-sawn boards but if you want primarily quarter-sawn, and wide enough to use, you'll need larger logs. There are several different techniques but you can assume that you'll need a log diameter 3-4 times larger than the width of the bulk of the boards you desire (6-8" wide boards, you'll want a tree of 26-30" diameter.

The above questions should be asked of any sawyer you are considering. Some charge by the hour, some by the board foot, some by the bid. Some will have large, powerful, automated equipment, others may employ a small manual mill. Both can produce excellent lumber in the right hands. Consider asking for a referral from local woodworkers, foresters, extension office, etc. :thumbsup:

I always inquire as to what a client wants from their logs. When custom milling you will run into a wide range of experience levels. Spending some time discussing your goals certainly helps me turn out the most suitable lumber your logs will yield. Consider too, the equipment you have available to process your lumber. Having a big stack of 18" wide boards and a 12" planer makes for a lot of extra work. :no: Have you thought about how you will dry your lumber?

Personally, I always shied away from the "drop them off and I'll call you when they are done" approach. Especially when it is your first milling experience, you should be there. Ask questions and speak up if you see something you don't understand. If they don't want to answer questions, then they probably aren't the right mill for you (this time).

Tom


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## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Beav said:


> Got it, Steve.
> 
> That's about my extent of knowledge between the two. (I've got a few reds as well.) I guess my question would be between the sub species of whites (white/bur/post/etc) being compatable reguarding stain & finish. I don't want to spend months working on an "herloom project," to discover that all the different pieces don't accept stain evenly.
> 
> ...


If you are only mixing different species of oak the only problem with finishing you would have is if you were either not staining or staining very light. The white oak is often darker than red oak. As long as you selected wood pretty uniform in color when you were building a project most people wouldn't ever know you mixed the wood. I had a stack bookcase I was repairing a couple of weeks ago that was quartersawn white oak and half of one side had a bad burn mark on it. I cut the bad wood off and replaced it with a piece of quartersawn red oak I had and it matched great.


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

Great feedback, Tom.:thumbsup:

I've measured 4 of the trees... vary from 48"-60" diameter measured a couple of feet off the ground. I've got another "leaner" which is much larger. I'm relatively sure they are all the same (white's,) just not positive which sub species they are. I've got them mentally separated from the reds that are mixed in. I'll mark them positively prior to all the leaves leaving so there's no mix up.

I'm just like anybody else... I want to extract the value out of my dollars spent. (I'm a "regular Joe, workin' man.) HOWEVER.... I don't want a "cheep" sawyer to butcher the potential that's there.

8' will be no problem, and the 12" dia small end lets me know how far "up" the tree is acceptable for milling. (I understand that no lateral limbs are acceptable, ie internal stress.) I have a small sub compact tractor that may "complain" moving that much weight, but it should manage.

I'll have to have the lumber dried as well...

Steve, I've not had the same luck as you with mixing white/red.:furious:

Maybe as I advance my finishing skill set... I'm a stain & danish oil guy.

Thanks to all for very enlightening information, it's very helpful.:thumbsup:

Beav


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*48" to 60" diameter....wow*

I would think your first question would be:
Can the sawyer move the logs to the mill, since your little tractor won't be able to do it. Your best method of moving stacks of flat lumber will be forks on the front end of a tractor or skid steer....

Can the sawyer and mill handle logs that large AND that heavy?

Can you participate in the sawing process such as in stacking and stickering close to where the mill will be located OR will you have to move the lumber twice? 

How wide is the largest plank you want?

Do you have a sheltered place to air dry the lumber?

Do you have weights or band clamps to secure the stack?

Does the sawyer understand how to "quartersaw" to get the Stickley type hardwood you desire. It involves more turning an cutting than flat sawing. You should look up on how the logs should be milled to get the quatersawn lumber.

Just a few things you might want to know or ask about. Don't ask me how I know this....... :blink:


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## Tom the Sawyer (Sep 4, 2012)

Beav,

A 60" diameter white oak, 8'6" long, would weigh something over 12,000 pounds and could not be lifted by a compact tractor, nor by many front end loaders or forklifts. It also could not be milled by any portable bandsaw mill without quartering first. Even the 48" is beyond the capabilities of most mills without quartering.

A 60" log would have over 1500 board feet, 48" around 1000 bf. The methods that maximize the percentage of true quartersawn lumber are also wasteful and time consuming. 

If, per chance, you meant "circumference", then it is a different story. If those are the circumference measurements then they are probably too small to quartersaw.


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

Wow!!!! I'm with woodnthings....those are BIG trees!! NOT impossible but more unusual/rare. I'm gonna ask a few questions to see that we're on the same page due to I've been through the "big" diameter to find out it was "big circumfurance. Are you measuring the approx straight across distance (dia) or the distance around the tree (circum).

As Tom mentioned, there's alot to qtr-sawing correctly.

A sub compact tractor WON'T handle the logs you've described. I have a 54 PTO rated john deere and I can't handle a 48" dia x 8' log.

This is a large undertaking but can be greatly rewarding in the end.

There are several species classified as white oak but may not saw out as close to looks...but as woodnthings mentioned most can't see the difference (and niether can I).


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

This new set-up here and my computer keep crashing (I know, I know there's not a problem:blink::huh::furious::furious Sorry Tom didn't mean to double up on info. It took 30 minutes to get that much done:furious:


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## Oneal-Woodworking (Apr 14, 2013)

First question needs to be, "Have you ever seen the movie Texas Chainsaw Massacre?"...

Or ...

"How many fingers you got?"


:yes:

(sorry, couldn't help it :no


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*measured off the ground, probably circumference*



Beav said:


> Great feedback, Tom.:thumbsup:
> 
> I've measured 4 of the trees... *vary from 48"-60" diameter measured a couple of feet off the ground*.man.) HOWEVER.... I don't want a "cheep" sawyer to butcher the potential that's there.
> 
> Beav


It's pretty darn difficult to measure a diameter when the tree is still in the ground and measured up a couple of feet. Some mathematics will be required..... 
Circumference is what you will get in this case. Diameter will need to be computed from:

C= 3.14 X Dia
48/3.14 = 15.2


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## Tom the Sawyer (Sep 4, 2012)

Tim, my internet provider has been taking hours off today too, very frustrating when you are trying to compose your thoughts. :thumbdown:

The circumference vs. diameter confusion is a pretty common issue for sawyers. When measuring DBH (diameter at breast height - 4.5' above the ground), you have to account for the taper of the log (to the height of your log) and the thickness of the bark. Some of the charts I have seen subtract 3-5" in diameter from what the DBH calculates. For example, a tree with a DBH of 30" would be figured as a log with a small end diameter of 25". Taper and bark thickness vary by species. 

If Beav's logs are actually of those diameters, there was another option that I sometimes overlook (being a bandsaw owner) and that is a portable swing blade mill. Advantages are that you don't have to move the logs, only the boards. They can get you some quartersawn lumber although the widths would be limited to 8 or 10" depending on the mill. They seem to be much harder to find than portable bandsaw mills.


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

*Circumference! *I'm sorry for the confusion.

Having said that..... I've got a HUGE red that stands out in the front yard, 120" circumference. Just behind it (30 yards or so) is a MAJESTIC white that is taller, but not quite as big around.

The wife has already been fore-warned.... IF either of those trees are toppled in a storm, they will get milled instantly! (I'd probably have to take a second mortgage out on the house....) but BOY - HOWDY, the lumber they'd yeild would last me the rest of my life.

My tractor is small, but it's got the front end loader and a backhoe. It also came equipped with a HUGE attitude, it's quite remarkable what I've already accomplished with it. 

"Plan your work, then work your plan."
Beav


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

OnealWoodworking said:


> "How many fingers you got?"
> 
> 
> :yes:
> ...


I've still got all 8 fingers, and both thumbs.:yes: (Thankfully)

I DO have a nasty scar on my left ring finger, and know for a fact that my bones are "gleaming white."

All I've got to say about that is..............."MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOU INSTALL SOME KIND OF SAFETY DEVICE (BLOCK) ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE BACK FENCE OF A CROSSCUT SLED!" Dangling fingers don't mix well with spinning blades.

"The saw won't get ya, but the BLADE SURE WILL!"

 That HURT!

Beav


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

I can't find how to edit previous post...

Here's that big red oak that I spoke of.



And that white oak...



The little tractor has a lot of "guts" for it's size, but it'd do well just to _roll_ an 8' 6" hunk of either of these!:no:

Beav


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

*you may find ...*

There may be very little useable straight grain lumber in the trees I see. Too many branches which result in knots. I've only done a small amount of on site milling, but that's what I've found. Others may have a different opinion.


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## ETWW (Mar 27, 2011)

Those are some nice trees and should render a couple of good 8.6" logs per tree. The butt logs will definitely be large enough to QS from looking at the pic.

Quartersawing does result in a lot more waste than flat sawing but for Stickley-type furniture, it's a necessity if you want the ray-fleck figure that is the hallmark of the style. I recently QS'd a 24" Red Oak and while I had the expected waste, I also got some very nice 4/4 and 8/4 lumber. The method I use on my band mill renders from 60 degree rift-sawn lumber to 90 degree, true vertical grain lumber. I think that's what you will get, too.

The best advice I can give in selecting a sawyer is to get references. A good sawyer with a large hydraulic mill will probably charge by the hour, especially for QS, as it takes longer. Expect to pay from $50 to $75 per hour. There may also be a mobilization/set-up fee. BF price will likely be around $0.30 if they agree to that pricing method.

If you can move the logs, try to have them staged for the mill when it arrives. If the mill operator has to move the mill to get to the next log, you will pay for that time. Cut off any limbs as close to the log as you can. Flush is best. Again, if the mill operator has to bump off limb nubs, you will be charged for that time and he will be annoyed from the beginning.

Be aware that Oak is a difficult species to dry without major degrade. QS lumber takes longer to dry than flat-sawn, also. You will probably be air-drying and some knowledge beforehand will help you get a better product. The publication by US Forest Products Laboratory, "Drying Hardwood Lumber" is a good reference and it's free online.


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## Fastback (Sep 2, 2012)

Hey Beav, maybe you should have a little less attitude and bigger tractor LOL. I also have a compact tractor (MF 2310) with loader and backhoe. I think that the front bucket is only rated a 600 or 650lbs. You may find it a bit limited for this type of work. I also have aspiration's to do some milling and using the tractor. In my case, since I plan on build my own mill I can take shorter sections. I just started the building process. I have a maple and red oak that will need to be taken down soon and thought I'd start there.

Paul


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Holy trees batman.....I think you need a bigger tractor....something more along these lines...


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## Tennessee Tim (Dec 15, 2010)

ryan50hrl said:


> Holy trees batman.....I think you need a bigger tractor....something more along these lines...


Ssssswwwweeeeetttttt!!!!! Can I use it next!!??? (I couldn't find a DROOL smilie LOL....BUT x10 of them!!!)


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## ryan50hrl (Jun 30, 2012)

Sadly I don't have one either...sorry.


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## Post Oakie (Aug 20, 2013)

That's just the machine! It wouldn't stay nice and shiny around my sawmill for long!


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## Socoj2 (Oct 4, 2014)

Hey Beav im close by. We have a Lumber mill in cumming here the guy is great make sure you speak to him.

Anderson Lumber Mill.


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## Beav (Oct 24, 2013)

Thanks for the tip, Socoj2.

He appears to have an old circular mill. I'd think that a bandsaw mill might be more appropriate for my needs, but I'll be sure to check with him anyway.

Beav


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