# Mixing latex paint with varnish, or poly



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

Hey guys, very new to wood finishing other than latex paint with a brush, done plenty of that.

We are starting a project in about a week building some built in cabinetry for a client. Considering my current experience level and shop set up etc, my plan is to spray SW Pro Classic water based on the units with an airless sprayer. I've done a little bit of site spraying with a fine finish tip on it spraying pro classic on some built in's and I've been quite pleased.

So the story... my Aunt said that when they had their built in cabinetry done, the cabinet guy mixed varnish with latex paint to get a more durable finish.

I didn't really know what varnish was and so I've been researching that and I'm coming up with different answers and also seeing lots of words I've never heard of before... :laughing:

My question, can you mix varnish (whatever that is...??) with latex paint and spray it to get a more durable finish? I see that SW has a Wood Classics waterbourne polyurethane varnish product that I guess I'd consider using.

Sorry for my ignorance, I will continue reading and trying to understand more but in the mean time I'd love advice if you have any.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes you can mix the Wood Classics waterborne varnish or any water based polyurethane with latex but it would be thinning it and wouldn't cover very well. I don't really care much for using latex paint on cabinets. Many of them never seem to dry completely and when exposed to humid weather the paint seems to re-wet and contents of the cabinets tend to stick to the shelves. If you are going to use latex be sure you use a good brand of trim paint. Really the best thing would be to not play chemist and choose a more durable finish that the paint company offers. If you are looking for a very durable paint then I would use a pigmented conversion varnish. If that is too expensive you might use a quick dry enamel. Another product that would be a lot easier would be a pigmented lacquer. Most of the time it dries to touch in 10 minutes or less. One of the best primers I've used with lacquer is Bushwacker white lacquer primer sold through Sherwin Williams. It makes painting easy. It dries fast and sands as easy as drywall mud.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If you stick with waterbase products, you can mix WB polyurethane with acrylic paint. Using a paint with some sheen to start with instead of flat would be better. Or, once your paint has cured you could topcoat with WB polyurethane. You have to allow enough dry times between applications. Painted surfaces can get sticky with each other and that's called 'blocking'.


















.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Yes you can mix the Wood Classics waterborne varnish or any water based polyurethane with latex but it would be thinning it and wouldn't cover very well. I don't really care much for using latex paint on cabinets. Many of them never seem to dry completely and when exposed to humid weather the paint seems to re-wet and contents of the cabinets tend to stick to the shelves. If you are going to use latex be sure you use a good brand of trim paint. Really the best thing would be to not play chemist and choose a more durable finish that the paint company offers. If you are looking for a very durable paint then I would use a pigmented conversion varnish. If that is too expensive you might use a quick dry enamel. Another product that would be a lot easier would be a pigmented lacquer. Most of the time it dries to touch in 10 minutes or less. One of the best primers I've used with lacquer is Bushwacker white lacquer primer sold through Sherwin Williams. It makes painting easy. It dries fast and sands as easy as drywall mud.


I was considering Kem Aqua Plus if they could tint it to the colors I need. But the client want's the base and crown that are going on the cabinet painted as well as a section of wall an I wasn't sure how good the color match would be with paint on the trim and wall and KA on the cabinet.

I think I'll call today and find out if they can tint it to the colors I need and find out if I can get a quart of paint for the trim that will match the KA nicely.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> I was considering Kem Aqua Plus if they could tint it to the colors I need. But the client want's the base and crown that are going on the cabinet painted as well as a section of wall an I wasn't sure how good the color match would be with paint on the trim and wall and KA on the cabinet.
> 
> I think I'll call today and find out if they can tint it to the colors I need and find out if I can get a quart of paint for the trim that will match the KA nicely.


You might experience some sheen variation with the pigmented Kem Aqua and your trim paint but they should be able to make the color the same. Sometimes it's hard to match a paint for touch up purposes but if they can't make the two applications you have, you are using the wrong paint company.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> You might experience some sheen variation with the pigmented Kem Aqua and your trim paint but they should be able to make the color the same. Sometimes it's hard to match a paint for touch up purposes but if they can't make the two applications you have, you are using the wrong paint company.


Any ideas as to how well it sprays out of an airless with a 210 or 310 fine finish tip?

I haven't gotten into cabinetry finishing at all so I'm just used to using SW or BM for my painting needs. I'll have to read around more and see what people are using and doing. Really looking forward to learning more on here. Thanks for the help already. :thumbsup:


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> Any ideas as to how well it sprays out of an airless with a 210 or 310 fine finish tip?
> 
> I haven't gotten into cabinetry finishing at all so I'm just used to using SW or BM for my painting needs. I'll have to read around more and see what people are using and doing. Really looking forward to learning more on here. Thanks for the help already. :thumbsup:


Every airless preforms diffierent so it would be difficult to say how well yours would spray. Personally I don't care for spraying cabinets with an airless. It puts out so much volumn you have to move fast to keep if from running. For the most part the only thing I use an airless for is interior wall paint. I prefer to use a pressure pot and a conventional sprayer. 

I use a lot of sherwin williams finishes as well as mohawk finishing products, mainly because they are close to me.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

Steve Neul said:


> Every airless preforms diffierent so it would be difficult to say how well yours would spray. Personally I don't care for spraying cabinets with an airless. It puts out so much volumn you have to move fast to keep if from running. For the most part the only thing I use an airless for is interior wall paint. I prefer to use a pressure pot and a conventional sprayer.
> 
> I use a lot of sherwin williams finishes as well as mohawk finishing products, mainly because they are close to me.


I know it's not the best but it's what I've got now. I was having to spray quite fast indeed to get it on at the right wet mil thickness.

I looked at getting a pressure pot and HVLP setup going but I was gonna put around $1,300 into it so I decided to hold off for now. Just bought a bunch of other things that are a little more applicable to my normal line of work.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

And I did decided to go with Kem Aqua Plus. Talked to a guy today at my SW store and that's the route I'm taking it now. I don't want any complaints from them about the finish being sticky, or wearing off or anything else.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> I know it's not the best but it's what I've got now. I was having to spray quite fast indeed to get it on at the right wet mil thickness.
> 
> I looked at getting a pressure pot and HVLP setup going but I was gonna put around $1,300 into it so I decided to hold off for now. Just bought a bunch of other things that are a little more applicable to my normal line of work.


Wow $1300.00. I think my tank was $60.00 25 years ago and I'm using it with a $20.00 harbor freight sprayer. I think their pressure pot is around 100 bucks. All that would leave is a regulator and two hoses.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

I was going to get the Fuji Q4 setup.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I've never used that type sprayer. I wonder what the advantages are.


----------



## Quickstep (Apr 10, 2012)

For what it's worth, I have a built-in that I built several years ago and sprayed with Sherwin Williams Pro-Classic. It has books on it, bowls on it, a TV and computer monitor and a variety of other trinkets and nothing has a ever stuck to it.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

Quickstep said:


> For what it's worth, I have a built-in that I built several years ago and sprayed with Sherwin Williams Pro-Classic. It has books on it, bowls on it, a TV and computer monitor and a variety of other trinkets and nothing has a ever stuck to it.


Yes, you are correct there are a lot of latex paints that perform well especially if you stick to real paint company paint. There are enough around that gives latex a bad name though. I removed some painted kitchen cabinets from a customers house in I believe 2007 which were old at the time. Stuff was sticking to the shelves then and I used them in my shop and stuff is still sticking.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

Quickstep said:


> For what it's worth, I have a built-in that I built several years ago and sprayed with Sherwin Williams Pro-Classic. It has books on it, bowls on it, a TV and computer monitor and a variety of other trinkets and nothing has a ever stuck to it.


Too late... I just ordered Kem Aqua today. Good to know though on the Pro Classic.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

If you have a compressor, you can get a nice finish with just a siphon gun/cup. No need for a pressure pot. Practice with the tip(s) that came with the gun.



















.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> If you have a compressor, you can get a nice finish with just a siphon gun/cup. No need for a pressure pot. Practice with the tip(s) that came with the gun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do have a compressor. I think my dad might have a cup gun from spraying automotive. I may give that a shot and see how it goes instead of the airless.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

A cup gun sprays automotive finishes very well because they are thin as water. When it comes to waterborne finishes once you thin it enough to spray right it sprays like colored water instead of paint. On some finishes it ruins the sheen too thinning it that much. Then if you get one that works you get a lot of orange peal spraying the inside of a cabinet. It is also necessary to turn the gun at any angle which you can't do with most cup guns. You would have better luck with the airless than a cup gun. I just like that pressure pot because it's more of a intermediate. You can adjust it where it sprays much more volume than a cup gun and not have to thin the paint so much. It's also not so much volume that you have to go real fast to keep from making runs.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> You would have better luck with the airless than a cup gun. I just like that pressure pot because it's more of a intermediate. You can adjust it where it sprays much more volume than a cup gun and not have to thin the paint so much. It's also not so much volume that you have to go real fast to keep from making runs.


You sure have your spraying problems. You make it sound so problematic and confusing. You can get enough volume from a cup gun to get runs. No need for a pressure pot. I've sprayed years with just a compressor/siphon gun. That's not the point. It's a matter of getting used to the gun adjustments available. To get familiar with a gun, just experiment with spraying water and fiddle with fluid control, air pressure, pattern, distance from the object, movement speed, etc. 

Over 25 years ago, when I was spraying lacquer sanding sealer and finishing lacquer, I used a pressure pot only because of having 2 gallons to spray instead of one quart. I didn't find any 'advantage' if there was additional volume or not. Just a gun and compressor adjusted properly provided sufficient coverage.


















.


----------



## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

The simple short answer is that you CAN NOT mix a waterborne finishing product with an oil base finishing product. Remember the old saying "oil and water don't mix".

In almost all cases "varnish" refers to an oil based clear finish while "latex" refers to a waterborne finish. They can't be mixed.

"Poly" generally refers to an oil based varnish formulated with a polyurethane resin. 

Read the label on the product. If it says "water clean-up" it is a waterborne finish. If it says "mineral spirits" clean-up, it's an oil based finish.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> You sure have your spraying problems. You make it sound so problematic and confusing. You can get enough volume from a cup gun to get runs. No need for a pressure pot. I've sprayed years with just a compressor/siphon gun. That's not the point. It's a matter of getting used to the gun adjustments available. To get familiar with a gun, just experiment with spraying water and fiddle with fluid control, air pressure, pattern, distance from the object, movement speed, etc.
> 
> Over 25 years ago, when I was spraying lacquer sanding sealer and finishing lacquer, I used a pressure pot only because of having 2 gallons to spray instead of one quart. I didn't find any 'advantage' if there was additional volume or not. Just a gun and compressor adjusted properly provided sufficient coverage.
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem spraying anything, whether it be houses, cabinets or automobiles. You can do just so much adjusting with a siphon sprayer to spray waterborn finishes before it comes down to thinning. Unless the cup gun is pressurized you have to overthin the finish. If you didn't find any advantage of a pressure pot you never figured out how to use it. You can adjust it to where is sprays no different than a siphon sprayer to pouring out finish like an airless sprayer and anywhere between. The tank pressure is the key. I also remember you saying many times you left the back off of cabinets to spray them. The only benefit to doing that is because you didn't have the right equipment to eliminate orange peal. With the equipment I have I spray cabinets that have fixed shelves and backs on inside and out and have no problem with orange peal.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

HowardAcheson said:


> The simple short answer is that you CAN NOT mix a waterborne finishing product with an oil base finishing product. Remember the old saying "oil and water don't mix".
> 
> In almost all cases "varnish" refers to an oil based clear finish while "latex" refers to a waterborne finish. They can't be mixed.
> 
> ...


In the first post the OP states what he's using.



xtrememtnbiker said:


> We are starting a project in about a week building some built in cabinetry for a client. *Considering my current experience level and shop set up etc, my plan is to spray SW Pro Classic water based on the units with an airless sprayer. *
> 
> *I see that SW has a Wood Classics waterbourne polyurethane varnish product that I guess I'd consider using. *



















.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> I don't have a problem spraying anything, whether it be houses, cabinets or automobiles. You can do just so much adjusting with a siphon sprayer to spray waterborn finishes before it comes down to thinning. Unless the cup gun is pressurized you have to overthin the finish.


This is likely a problem you have. 




Steve Neul said:


> If you didn't find any advantage of a pressure pot you never figured out how to use it. You can adjust it to where is sprays no different than a siphon sprayer to pouring out finish like an airless sprayer and anywhere between. The tank pressure is the key. I also remember you saying many times you left the back off of cabinets to spray them. The only benefit to doing that is because you didn't have the right equipment to eliminate orange peal. With the equipment I have I spray cabinets that have fixed shelves and backs on inside and out and have no problem with orange peal.


I never had a problem with my equipment, and most spraying was done with a compressor and a gun. If you are spraying cabinets with the back in place...wake up. All the finishers I know spray without backs in place, and drawer bottoms out. My equipment is fine...I don't get orange peel. Sorry to hear that you do.


















.


----------



## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> Hey guys, very new to wood finishing other than latex paint with a brush, done plenty of that.
> 
> We are starting a project in about a week building some built in cabinetry for a client. Considering my current experience level and shop set up etc, my plan is to spray SW Pro Classic water based on the units with an airless sprayer. I've done a little bit of site spraying with a fine finish tip on it spraying pro classic on some built in's and I've been quite pleased.
> 
> ...


As long as you mixed water based products together with each other and oil based products with each other it would work. It might not cover very well. The more clear you add the thinner the paint would be. It would just be easier to use a harder finish to begin with.


----------



## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> You sure have your spraying problems. You make it sound so problematic and confusing. You can get enough volume from a cup gun to get runs. No need for a pressure pot. I've sprayed years with just a compressor/siphon gun. That's not the point. It's a matter of getting used to the gun adjustments available. To get familiar with a gun, just experiment with spraying water and fiddle with fluid control, air pressure, pattern, distance from the object, movement speed, etc.
> 
> Over 25 years ago, when I was spraying lacquer sanding sealer and finishing lacquer, I used a pressure pot only because of having 2 gallons to spray instead of one quart. I didn't find any 'advantage' if there was additional volume or not. Just a gun and compressor adjusted properly provided sufficient coverage.
> 
> ...


Your comments just don't make any sense. Comparing a siphon sprayer to a pressure pot rig is compairing apples and oranges. While the siphon sprayer may work fine for open work, spraying the inside of a cabinet the pressure pot is far superior especially with water based paint. Then you claim more than 25 years ago you used a pressure pot but your comments about it and how they work suggest you have never used one at all.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Balfour Refinishing said:


> Your comments just don't make any sense. Comparing a siphon sprayer to a pressure pot rig is compairing apples and oranges. While the siphon sprayer may work fine for open work, spraying the inside of a cabinet the pressure pot is far superior especially with water based paint. Then you claim more than 25 years ago you used a pressure pot but your comments about it and how they work suggest you have never used one at all.


And what is the substance for your inappropriate comment like that?


















.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> This is likely a problem you have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, your suppose to uninstall the cabinets, tear the backs off and the drawer bottoms out because you don't have the ability to finish them? There is probably more cabinets built by companies that don't do any finishing at all and they are installed in the houses unfinished. Even a company that does their own finishing it's a foolish waste of time to send a cabinet from assembly to finishing and then back to assembly to finish building the cabinet. Even doing it that way a airless or pressure pot system would substantially reduce your labor cost.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Steve Neul said:


> So, your suppose to uninstall the cabinets, tear the backs off and the drawer bottoms out because you don't have the ability to finish them? There is probably more cabinets built by companies that don't do any finishing at all and they are installed in the houses unfinished. Even a company that does their own finishing it's a foolish waste of time to send a cabinet from assembly to finishing and then back to assembly to finish building the cabinet. Even doing it that way a airless or pressure pot system would substantially reduce your labor cost.


You seem to persist with disparaging remarks. If that makes you feel important more power to you. I think it makes you look foolish, and you can argue all you want. I have the ability to finish cabinets in any form they are in. I build and finish my own cabinets, and I finish them without the backs in, like most shops that build and finish their own cabinets. That's right. Is that clear enough for you?

I don't install cabinets that aren't finished, and I don't go onto a site and finish someone else's cabinets. I guess you do that. I just don't need work like that.


















.


----------



## Steve Neul (Sep 2, 2011)

I was content addressing the OP's needs. Your the one that starts the BS as with post 19. 

As far as the type of work I do, I'm not going to tell a customer to find someone else when I'm capable of doing the work. Most of the time I'm there because they did get someone else that screwed up the job and need me to fix it.


----------



## xtrememtnbiker (Jul 24, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> You seem to persist with disparaging remarks. If that makes you feel important more power to you. I think it makes you look foolish, and you can argue all you want. I have the ability to finish cabinets in any form they are in. I build and finish my own cabinets, and I finish them without the backs in, like most shops that build and finish their own cabinets. That's right. Is that clear enough for you?
> 
> I don't install cabinets that aren't finished, and I don't go onto a site and finish someone else's cabinets. I guess you do that. I just don't need work like that.
> 
> ...



Is that how you would finish paint grade cabinetry with fixed shelves like I'm dealing with? I'm running a groove down the side panels for the back panel to slide into and if it was finished separately from the cabinet box and then slid in, wouldn't it mess up the finish?


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> Is that how you would finish paint grade cabinetry with fixed shelves like I'm dealing with? I'm running a groove down the side panels for the back panel to slide into and if it was finished separately from the cabinet box and then slid in, wouldn't it mess up the finish?


I don't build cabinets with a groove for the back to slide into. I machine a rabbet for the back. If that's how they are constructed, you will likely have to sand the back along the edge to give room for the back to slide.


















.


----------



## Balfour Refinishing (Jul 20, 2014)

cabinetman said:


> And what is the substance for your inappropriate comment like that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about inappropriate. Any novice finisher could tell huge difference between a cup gun and a pressure pot system in only minutes. You are either lying or don't have experience with the equipment. I would like to think you aren't lying. The difference in volume between the two sprayers is profound. This increase in volume is especially useful spraying the cabinets. Spraying the inside of a cabinet gets cumbersome handling a cup gun and the lack of volume creates orangepeal in the corners. Overall it just sprays smoother making a lot less sanding between coats therefore increasing production.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

Balfour Refinishing said:


> I don't know about inappropriate. Any novice finisher could tell huge difference between a cup gun and a pressure pot system in only minutes. You are either lying or don't have experience with the equipment. I would like to think you aren't lying. The difference in volume between the two sprayers is profound. This increase in volume is especially useful spraying the cabinets. Spraying the inside of a cabinet gets cumbersome handling a cup gun and the lack of volume creates orangepeal in the corners. Overall it just sprays smoother making a lot less sanding between coats therefore increasing production.


Cumbersome for you...not for me. I don't have any problems, or get orange peel. I forgot to welcome you to this forum where we treat members with respect. And yes, your comments are inappropriate and disrespectful. 


















.


----------



## unclefester (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm getting a headache following this one


----------



## woodturner9 (Jun 19, 2012)

Balfour Refinishing said:


> Any novice finisher could tell huge difference between a cup gun and a pressure pot system in only minutes.


Absolutely.

Information based on years of experience from professionals such as yourself is much more helpful than reposting tidbits found on the web. My experience is finishing is more "hand based" and I find your contributions immensely helpful when I do need to spray finish. Thanks for your contributions here!


----------



## woodturner9 (Jun 19, 2012)

xtrememtnbiker said:


> So the story... my Aunt said that when they had their built in cabinetry done, the cabinet guy mixed varnish with latex paint to get a more durable finish.


Is it possible the "varnish" was Floetrol? It's an additive that looks sort of like a varnish that makes latex products spray easier and flow better.


----------



## cabinetman (Jul 5, 2007)

woodturner9 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Information based on years of experience from professionals such as yourself is much more helpful than reposting tidbits found on the web. My experience is finishing is more "hand based" and I find your contributions immensely helpful when I do need to spray finish. Thanks for your contributions here!


Why don't you post pictures of something you have made, and your finishes...if you have any.


















.


----------



## woodturner9 (Jun 19, 2012)

wrong thread


----------



## HowardAcheson (Nov 25, 2011)

cabinetman said:


> In the first post the OP states what he's using.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob the Painter (Jan 24, 2012)

I do this all the time ProClassic topcoated, they are doing it in new houses here. There is a new problem I have been experiencing with the ProClassic and that is that in some cases I get little red spots, this is something new for the last year and I have no clue what is going on, I know they occur less if you use the SW primer, they incease if you use the cheaper 123 Bullseye, I hope they get that fixed soon, I am not using it on my current job. 
The most safe clear for mixing ProClassic in is plain on PolyCrylic but it is not the hardest clear. I only blend a little ProClassic in my clear and then only to begin a layer of many more pure clears, to save time if I have sanded though or something. I never just add for hardness, I think the straight clear is harder. I am now trying to find a better paint than the ProClassic and maybe it will be found at Porter Paints, but the little dots are something new, some formula change and they are quite small. They also tend to vanish over time, still it worries me a lot. The great thing about ProClassic is the way it lays down even if you didn't spray it right, such as too much water or a spatter etc. I have not tried that clear for some reason. I do know that StaysClear lowlustre from Ben Moore is harder than the PolyCrylic. I never use oil modified anything knowingly if I am adding paint for fear of changes and oil modified acrylic watervarnishes are newish and they can amber a little. I have tried both the Rack X (blue) and Rack 5 (green) fine finish tips and know you have to check for the correct one on Rack X more than with rack five and that if you soak them in lacquer thinner if they clog they unclog), to me the Rack 10 if just too smooth if you wind up having to brush somewhere. I find that it is even smoother than my HVLP. I spray my clears onsite with an hvlp and have even used a cheap blue 120 dollar one from Lowes with StaysClear and other waterclears with good success thought the initial fine orange peel looks scary but soon levels out. If your building it though, you wont have to worry about spraying inside with an airless I suspect, but I often find that when I get doors up and under lights or maybe scrapped etc, I see small discrepancies and need to break out the hvlp for a last coat. These are my personal experiences and may or may not be appropriate for your situation.


----------



## Bob the Painter (Jan 24, 2012)

Slightly off topic, but related is my tentative solution for painting old furniture on site. I don't seek that kind of work unless they bring it to me and I have room or time but just yesterday agreed to repaint some furniture. My idea is to clean and scuff it then get the Zinnsner White Shellac primer tinted to a color and get it approved, then after that is on, add some tint or a little latex to some General Finishes HP which is harder than any other waterbased stuff I have seen (I hear Chem Aqua will work but I keep seeing technical difficulties posted on forums, so I will stick to the tried and true and trouble free for the most part GF) then clear it with more General Finishes HP, it dries very fast. I know with enough coats that this system will hold up very well, and will be fine. But maybe there is something else? I thought about a lacquer, but then the question becomes what primer to use on old stained wood. I am going to post this as a standalone question, but in getting answers for it, more light may be shed on your question since there is always a deeper and improved method.


----------

