# First woodworking equipment purchase - Table Saw



## jlehman (Dec 22, 2008)

Hi All,

I'm new to this site, and new to woodworking (though I have watched the last two years worth of Norm Abram and David Marks on TV). We're hoping to purchase our first house (with a garage - yipee!) in the next couple months, and I'd like to start outfitting it with a woodworking shop. The house will be a 'fixer,' and I'd like to be able to do some trim work, etc on it to start. 

I'm 90% sure that I'd like my initial purchase to be a good, used table saw. (If you think I should get another type of tool first, let me know). I'd like to buy a 230V Delta shop saw. I probably won't buy another woodworking tool for at least a year, so anything i do, woodworking-wise will be limited to my new table saw, plus assorted other hand power tools (jigsaw, router, circular saw, belt sander, etc) that I already have.

So, two questions:

1) What do you think about the saw below?
2) how do I know if I would prefer a left-tilting or right-tilting saw? (never knew there was a choice) I'm right handed, if that matters.

Typical saw I'm interested in, on eBay:

Delta 5HP 230V, Single Phase TEFC motor (P/N 36-L51X-BC50)
$1000, including shipping to continental US
600 pounds +/- (I would rig up some sort of wheel set for it so that I could move it out of the way when I'm not using it)
Left Tilt Unisaw® w/ Biesemeyer® 
50-tooth carbide-tipped blade 
50" Biesemeyer® guide with adjustable flip stop for ease of use
Laminated table board and adjustable steel support legs provide support and durability 
Dust collection 
Right Extension Table 
Adjustable Steel Support Legs 
(2) 10" Cast-Iron Extension Wings 
Standard Insert Miter Gauge 


Just my personal preference, I would strongly prefer a high quality/precision saw like this, even with the pain of having to run 220V service to my garage, than a smaller saw that I would get annoyed with. If it turns out that I actually hate woodworking, I can sell it for not too much less than I bought it for. 

Thanks!


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## Bib (Dec 21, 2008)

Your table saw will be the main workhorse in your shop. 220v in my mind is a must. A 5 HP motor can handle a lot of work without you noticing it. I just purchased a Jet 12" cabinet unit 5 HP 220v retails $3,400 - usually can get for $2,600 - I got for $1,600 and freight. Brand new - on Ebay = no reserve - awsome saw! This is one expense where spending more can make a hugh difference. The specs you list look pretty good for a $1,000 unit. Shop hard! Good luck!


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## Conner (Sep 14, 2008)

That sounds like a good deal on a nice saw. The extension table is worth $100 you'd have to add if it wasn't included, and the dust collection is worth $100-$200 depending on what it is. The fact that those are included makes this an even sweeter deal. 
Keep in mind you may want to add an outfeed table, a premium sawblade (Woodworker II is around $100) and dado set (+/-$100) when you build your budget.


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## BHOFM (Oct 14, 2008)

I am going to stir the fire a bit.

For $1000 you can go to Lowes or what ever store
and out fit an entire shop with tools good enough
to do most jobs around the house!

Unless you are going to run the saw continually for
hours on end you don't need a 220V saw.

A nice $250 saw with a decent blade set up right
will do everything you need. Plus you have enough
to also get a miter saw, router, some bits and a
sander and take the wife out to dinner.

Unless you are just trying to impress your friends,
the saw is a waste of money for the average home
owner.

People that blame the tools for their problems need
to take up stamp collecting or poodle grooming.

I have a good friend that has a very high end cabinet
shop and he doesn't have a $1000 table saw.

If you are depending on the tools to do all the work
I would advise you to take up baking.

Sorry if I hurt any ones feelings.


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

That should make for a heck of a saw, but with some possible overkill. No harm done though, and as you point out, buying it used has much less financial downside if you resell it. Better to buy more saw than you need than not enough. Keep your eyes peeled for a nice used General 350/650, or PM66 too....same basic quality league. $1K also buys something like a new Grizzly 1023, which is also a nice cabinet saw, just not quite as "overbuilt".

As far as left tilt/right tilt....it's really a matter of preference but there are differences both pro and con. I've owned both and prefer LT. The main advantage of left tilt is that the blade tilts away from the fence on a bevel cut, which is considered safer. But there's also the benefit that the arbor nut goes on from the right side, which favors putting it on with your right hand...it'll also have a normal thread orientation. Now for the downside...because the arbor flange is on the left, the right edge of the blade is registered to the zero reference of the tape cursor so blade thickness can effect the zero reference if you change blade thicknesses...like from full kerf to thin kerf. The work arounds are to either recalibrate the cursor, use a shim as a space to offset the thickness of a thinner blade, or measure by hand and ignore the saw's tape. There's also the benefit of having much lower likelihood of ever needing the rip capacity on the left side of the blade, meaning it's possible to slide the rail over to the right to gain some extra capacity on the right using the stock rails....you can get an extra 10" or so with most. 

Right tilt has the arbor flange on the right, so the right side of the blade registers against the flange meaning blade thickness changes don't make any difference. The blade tilts to the right toward the fence which creates a bit of a hazard....the work around is to move the fence to the left of the blade and do bevel cuts on that side, which is a less familiar operation, so has different hazards in itself. The arbor nut mounts from the left side and has reverse thread orientation, which requires left hand mounting...it's a minor thing to some but I found it a constant nuisance that I'd rather not deal with. 

Good luck!


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

More food for thought, it cost em roughly $650.00 in materials to get a 50amp service panel out to my garage. That was with me doing the work, just keep it in mind if your going to go 220. Its one thing to have a saw that you can re-sale if your not interested in the hobby, but to even get it up and running can be expensive.


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## Gerry KIERNAN (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi jlehman.
Welcome to the forum. I agree that the Delta tablesaw with the 5 hp, 220 volt motor is overkill for the average home handy man, and that it will cost you some bucks to get power to it. That said, if the bug bites, and you really get into woodworking, you will NEVER regret purchasing a good quality powerful table saw. And, as others have mentioned, a good tablesaw is generally the most used piece of equipment in most peoples shops. At $1000 that sounds like a pretty good price to me.

Gerry


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Sure, you CAN outfit your shop with a monster saw, and a lot of guys do. The tool companies love it. I personally have been using a Ryobi BTS21, and am now upgrading to the loaded BT3100 I am getting used. I have friends with Skil table saws that produce some amazing work from them... So yes, a high end saw IS nice, but not necessary. 

A better use of the grand might be...

Good used contractors saw. LOTS of the old 110V 1.5hp Craftsman, Delta, Emmerson Built Ridgids etc... come up on Craigslist all the time for $150.00 - $250.00 all the time... So assuming the best situation buying used from Craigslist...

Emmerson built Ridgid TS. $150.00
Ridgid, or DeWalt planer $200.00
Ridgid, Delta, old Craftsman etc... jointer $200.00
Ridgid Oscillating sander (These rarely come up, but go on sale at HD from time to time) $175.00
Firestorm CMS, seen these go on sale at Lowes for $99.00, I love mine...
Used 14" band saw, I have seen 5 or 6 of these since I bought mine new... $150.00

You will have nearly a full shop of tools, and change left over...


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## jlehman (Dec 22, 2008)

thanks everyone for your thoughts...I appreciate it. especially the right/left tilt thing and the $650 for 220V service (I had assumed it would be around $200). $650 is a fair chunk of change, and definitely worth thinking about

From previous work during college, I suspect I would really get into woodworking. I've never regretted buying a high quality tool. They're a joy to use. I also have a few 'crap' power tools, and they just sit there collecting dust. 

We don't have the house yet, so I don't even have a place to put the saw. Much to think about.


Another question. I do think that I want the precision and quality of a cabinet saw, but I don't think I need 5 HP. There is a 3 HP version of this same saw that is rated at 11 amps. I'm sure that would be fine for my needs. Would a typical garage already have 15 amp, 220 V service? (I don't know that much about AC electrical stuff, but can't you get 220 V out of most circuits if you change the wiring around? One place I used to live had a standard 110 outlet that was actually outputting 220 V. Thankfully, I found that out before I plugged my stereo into it. We changed the wiring around in that outlet, and brought it down to 110


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

I would like to clarify, the ~$650 included 6/3 wire about 100', a 100 amp service panel and all the pugs and light fixtures. But hey if your going to run power to your shop, might as well run enough for everything in it. I think the coil of 6/3 wire was right at $200 for a 100' stretch. Most garages unless attached won't have 220 without a sub-panel somewhere. If the garage has been set up for a dryer or something then your good to go. Otherwise most garages are not unless requested when its built or it has been modified. My Jet is a 3hp and it is plenty of power, 5hp is something you need if your going to be ripping 8/4 stuff all say long.


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

Buy the largest you can afford if you are not sure how addicted you are going to get. The key word here is "afford" and many readers will ignore that and say "he doesn't need that much saw!"

No one can tell you how much saw you will need, even, maybe especially, you. Woodworking almost always either passes from someone's interest altogether, or gets worse like a heroin habit. So that's always my advice, get as much as you can *afford*. 

That means not just considering beans and taters but also other woodworking equipment you'll need pronto. Like sandpaper. 

As to the tilt, don't forget there are saw on the market now with miter tracks on both sides of the blade and where the fence can be on either side in like 3 seconds literally. My wife has one we just bought recently. 

I have a monster 240v 3Ø 7.5HP Oliver with a 16" blade, but I use her 120v 10" Hitachi 90% of the time now. We have 5 table saws now from a little 4" up to the 16" Oliver and if I could only have one saw which one would it be? The Oliver of course. I can put a 7 1/4" blade on it with a zero insert and cut little stuff all day. Or I can cram a 6" hickory timber across the 16" blade and never hear it slow down. 

If you know for a fact (you can't really but hey it sounds diplomatic) you'll never need much saw, then just spend a couple hundred on a saw. But if you are not sure where your woodworking is headed, get as much as you can afford and IMHO look to the used market. It's insane to spend $2000 to $4000 on a new table saw when you can pick up a perfectly good used one for pennies on the dollar. 

Just my two.


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## BHOFM (Oct 14, 2008)

> We changed the wiring around in that outlet, and brought it down to 110


That sounds like a place I would not want to spend
a night in.


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## jlehman (Dec 22, 2008)

BHOFM said:


> That sounds like a place I would not want to spend
> a night in.


yeah, I'm trying to remember how I decided to test the voltage on the outlet. Its not something I normally do. I think I plugged in my lamp, and it blew out a couple bulbs. I could very easily have plugged in my TV/Stereo system into that outlet. I got lucky. 

It was an 'interesting' place to live. 


ok, another question...what is the real difference between a 600 pound cabinet saw, and a Ryobi contractor's saw?

If you work at it, can you get just as accurate of cuts? 

I'm interested in doing really high quality stuff. (dressers, kitchen cabinets (eventually), etc)


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## Nate1778 (Mar 10, 2008)

Obviously a cabinet saw is going to be able to handle sheet goods in large pieces a lot better than a contractors saw (not so wobbly). A good contractors saw is going to have less power in most cases but still be able to handle cutting 3/4" goods with no problem, you won't know the difference. The best cabinet saw setup incorrectly will still cut like crap, any saw you invest in will only cut as cleanly and accurate as its setup will allow. Obviously the dust collection on a cabinet is going to be better then a contractor saw, but that's getting better. Your other option is to get a "Good" Contractor saw and set up a table for it, like in the link below (top picture of the first page). That book is awesome and has a lot of great designs for building "Workstations". Either way if your going to do cabinet work good support tables are necessary, whether its a cabinet or a contractor saw. 


http://books.google.com/books?id=nr...a=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Ryobi has a range of table saws, but in all honesty, you will want to only consider the BT3000 / BT3100 saws. The smaller saws as far as I know are all direct drive, and not nearly as expandable as the BT3x00...

You obviously have a difference in mass. The cast iron top, heavy trunions etc... of a cabinet saw are great to have when cutting sheet goods. But in all honesty, are you going to expect dead on accuracy when trying to manhandle a 4x8 sheet of whatever through the sawblade? You are far better off, and safer using a good circ saw / blade with a true and square straight edge...

Power is one obvious difference. but given a sane feed rate, and a good blade my Ryobi BTS21 cuts 8/4 Mesquite no problem...

The fence and miter gauge will be different... The BT3x00 has a very well regarded fence, and the sliding miter table's fence / gauge has always proved to be quite accurate when used according to instructions. (Some folks ignore the owners manual and screw up setting the fence...). A miter slot add in table is available, but is not super adjustable for parallelism to the blade, however many owners have simply built their own adjustable slots and gotten them dead on...

Other issues are obviously cost differences, which one can you really afford? And size. The BT3100 in it's current form is sold as the Craftsman Professional 21829, and has a nice solid folding stand that allows the saw to be tucked away in a corner in a garage workshop. Something to consider!

These saws are not for everybody, but they work amazingly well for those that it is a good fit for... Plainly put, somethimes the big Unisaw is just not the right tool for the job, but sometimes it is... What are you going to be doing, how much space, and money do you have to put into it?


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Just for further reading, Check out the article Jim Frye wrote up on BT3Central a few years ago on why to buy the BT3K.

http://www.bt3central.com/articles/files/whybuybt3k.PDF


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

dbhost said:


> Just for further reading, Check out the article Jim Frye wrote up on BT3Central a few years ago on why to buy the BT3K.
> 
> http://www.bt3central.com/articles/files/whybuybt3k.PDF


The BT3 is a neat saw for people requiring good precision in a small package on a budget, but they don't compare to what he's looking at in an industrial cabinet saw. What's the benefit of persuading him to take a few steps back in size, mass, power, and long term reliability?


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Budget, the OP was wanting to get into WW with a budget layout of $1K, kind of tough to do if you are looking at that low of a budget...

and he did ask...



> ok, another question...what is the real difference between a 600 pound cabinet saw, and a Ryobi contractor's saw?


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## jlehman (Dec 22, 2008)

This is all good food for thought...thank you everyone. I think I've settled on a 3 HP cabinet saw. My initial budget is $1000. Eventually, I'll spend more on the rest of the gear (bandsaw, planer, jointer, etc)


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

dbhost said:


> Budget, the OP was wanting to get into WW with a budget layout of $1K, kind of tough to do if you are looking at that low of a budget...
> 
> and he did ask....what is the real difference between a 600 pound cabinet saw, and a Ryobi contractor's saw?


Ah...yes he did! Sorry, I missed that. :huh:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

First thing ~ I need to reprimand myself. This statement I made ..........


TexasTimbers said:


> It's insane to spend $2000 to $4000 on a new table saw when you can pick up a perfectly good used one for pennies on the dollar.
> 
> Just my two.


........ well I probably should not say it is "insane". Just because I don't see the sense in buying a brand spanking new saw does not make it insane. What is insane is for me to make such a statement and not expect to offend someone whoo may have recently purchased a new high-dollar saw. I didn't get any PMs or anything, I just happen to reread it as I was catching up on the thread and I cringed at my double-standard. Nothing wrong with spending $4000 on a new table saw if you have the bucks more power to you. 

On to the BT3000 ~ I have owned not one, but two. Didn't learn the first time around. :laughing: I think this gives me the right to give my opinion on it, so for those who have one and like it just know that your positive opinion of it is every bit as relevant as my negative. Nothing personal toward you. 

I bought one in the early 90s when they came out. It was a terribly engineered POJ back then. The "sliding" mechanism was impossible to get perfectly aligned and the friction level was unacceptable. The miter attachment also was not possible to adjust so as to get the slop out.

Fast forward to a few months ago. My wife needed a saw to cut small parts and to make spline making jigs for our dovetail spline system, and also to cut splines themselves, as our system comes with pre-cut splines for examples. We also include extra free splines in our kits that we do not advertise. Just part of our business philosophy. Point being, we cut a lot of splines. 

Cutting splines is not something you want to do with a 16" blade so that rules Betsy out. Although we have 3 other table saws, for reasons too long to list, none of the saws were really kosher to my wife. Okay the reasons weren't that long were they? She doesn't like none of them and i don't let her use Betsy so I went shopping one day . . . . . 

I stumbled across the BT3000 again at Big Box Central. So I figured hey, it was a POC for building furniture but for cutting splines this might be exactly what she needs. Long story short, it has not been improved at all since it was first released some 15+ years ago and IMHO it ain't good for anything except a boat anchor, and not much good for that because it is too light. 

Nuff said on that. I ended up getting her the Hitachi at Lowes. I should do a review on it but suffice to say it is an accpetable saw at the price I ended up paying especially. But I got a one-time deal like can't be repeated. All the planets were aligned and I got it for below half the retail of $500. 

But you have $1000 to spend just on a saw. You can get a LOT more saw than the Hitachi. IMHO, you should definitely look to the used market. Be patient and you will get your 3HP cabinet saw. I have had fantastic success buying tools off craigslist. Just use common sense and you won't get burned. 

There a number of online auctions to watch also. If I had not been braindead last week and forgot to bid, I could have picked up a 24" Meber bandsaw for under $500 and shipping all the way from the NE would have run $200 on that behemoth. $700 for a $7000+ saw? :yes:

There are constantly 3HP Powermatic/Delta/Rockwell table saws for pennies on the dollar all the time on various auction sites. I follow the IRS auctions when I need a big tool and am a member there. Not the friendly taxing agency but *these guys*. That's that's where the big bandsaw sold for 10 cents on the dollar. 

That one site is probably sufficient to find your saw, but there are many other sites. There are also many _machinery brokers_, and IMO are over-priced so I would avoid them. You will have no problem finding a nice big heavy cabinet saw for $1000 including shipping if you just take the time to look. Way less than $1000 maybe if you find one locally. 

Let us know when you get one. We like pictures.


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Not to be a PITA, but how did you find a BT3000 at a big box store a couple of months ago? They have been out of production except in Craftsman trim for about two years now, and the last of that series was the BT3100... Yes the BT is light, and that can be problematic, or it can be an advantage. It sounds like this was not the right tool for you...

FWIW, the sliding miter table is fully adjustable, and the slides are actually quite easy to move. If yours wasn't chances are you got one that was either defective, or mis-adjusted...

I am sorry you had such bad experiences with the BT, it is a mighty fine saw for what it is. Is it a big cabinet saw? Nope. But for most hobbyist woodworkers, it is a great tool to have in the shop when used properly. When used improperly, like ANY power tool, it can be as innacurate, and dangerous as anything out there...

I do agree though, Craigslist is a GREAT resource for used iron if you are so inclined. There is a 1950s Craftsman 3HP in my local CL for a silly low price right now... Looks complete, and well taken care of.

One thing to be VERY careful of with 220v tools is to make sure they are single phase and not 3 phase. Getting those to work on residential power is a HUGE expense, and usually not worth it...


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## Paul K (Jan 14, 2008)

You can certainly make good cuts on a contractor saw, and probably bad cuts on a cabinet saw. Certainly the cabinet saw has less vibration, often quieter, better dust collection, but the important things are probably able to have a bigger table, a better fence, and probably better able to swing a good blade with less runout. I have a couple large cabinet saws, but frankly a 3 hp unisaw or such is all most will ever need. If you like quality tools, and do hope to do more than home repair, then yes, get a cabinet saw if you can afford it. Will it be the most useful for home repairs? NO. Get a good sliding left right chop saw and a cheap table saw if that is your only goal. You fill find that much more useful. 
Left and right issues were admirably addressed by knotscott. I have examples of both, and frankly, I agree that there are advantages to both, but I sort of prefer the right tilt for some strange reason. If you have the space, get out-feed rollers, possible the type that tilts up. I have that on an old unisaw and they work well. As to types of fences, you will get all different opinions, but any of the modern good fences are more useful than any of the old ones. 
As to the power, perhaps you will already have 220 in the garage of the house you buy. It is common. Most houses built from 1950 onward had 220, often for the electric stove, or AC or other issues. Many of those houses had 220 in the garage too. If you get the bug and find you want more machines, you certainly would be happy to have 50 amps in your garage, though 30 might do for awhile. You can certainly run a 3hp saw on 30 amps and have left over power for lights. You will need close to the 30 amps however for a 5 hp saw. I would say 5 hp is not needed by most of us. 5 hp allows one to push hardwoods thru the saw in a more “production” type environment. If you are remodeling your house, take some time to study a home wiring book. In a couple of nights of reading, you can understand all that you might need to know about wiring in a house. You will likely use that knowledge fairly often.


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## Davet (Nov 16, 2007)

Here's a great middle of the road table saw great reviews.
I know a lot of people that have these and love them.
Worth a look!

RIDGID 10 In. Cast Iron Table Saw Model TS3660 
$549.00/EA Each (cheaper when it goes on sale)
120volts ... may convert to 220 volts.
(I believe, not 100% sure on the 220v)

Rugged and precise rip fence design with micro-adjust 36-in rip capacity.











http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...3&productId=100608588&N=10000003+90068+500744

Trust me, think about what you are going to be doing in woodworking in the future.
Do your research for each tool, buy the best you can afford 
"most bang for your buck" or you will end up with a shop full of junk.
you will end up spending more in the long run replacing these junk tools
that never seem to quite do what they are spoda do or are a real 
pain in the butt to use,.... with better tools later down the road.

I don't go by horsepower any more... I go by amps.
There is too much interpretation in actual horsepower these day's.


..


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## Davet (Nov 16, 2007)

Snip:
what is the real difference between a 600 pound cabinet saw, and a Ryobi contractor's saw?

Oops .....withdrawn I had the wrong Ryobi model saw in mind.

My apologizes

Dave


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

What about the new Ridgid R4511? (I think that is the model number) with the granite top?

It appears to be a nice hybrid saw, basically a 1.5HP version of a cabinet saw. The riving knife is a nice feature for sure! (One of the reasons I am a fan of the BT, no other saws in the price range with a riving knife).


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## RichL (Dec 4, 2008)

I was seriously looking at the Ridgid TS 3660 until.... I ran across a deal on an older (20 yrs?) heavy and stable cast iron Craftsman table saw and a 14" band saw. I paid $270 for both. I took my time and cleaned it up and set it up right and installed a new Freud blade. It works beautifully. Because it is the older Craftsman it is both good quality and cheep... :laughing: as least IMHO...It is too heavy to move around easily by myself so I will buy a shop fox dolly at some point.

I was able to save enough money to buy a used Grizzly drill press ($125),used Grizzly 12.5 planer ($140), new Grizzly oscillating spindle sander ($150), new bench top router table ($100), a used older Craftsman Combo 6" x 48" belt 9" disk sander ($80) and a used Delta 20" scroll saw ($40). I have learned how to rehab and tune up some of the older tools I bought. I even surprised myself. Total investment $905.

I just take my time and watch for the deals that are out there on used tools and sales on new. I'm also new to woodworking. I was able to put my shop together for not a lot of money starting off. As needed and as I learn more I can always upgrade later. In the meantime I'm making sawdust and having fun and that works for me. :yes:

I wish everyone here a safe and very happy Christmas and Hanukkah Season and a great New Year. :yes:


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## TexasTimbers (Oct 17, 2006)

dbhost said:


> Not to be a PITA, but how did you find a BT3000 at a big box store a couple of months ago?


You're correct it was not a BT3000 but Ryobi's latest reincarnation of the same POJ engineering. TS21 or some whatever. Has most all the same weaknesses, I mean features. 

They are junk in my opinion. Doesn't mean they are junk though, just means I think they are. 

If you like them that's great.:thumbsup:


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

TexasTimbers said:


> You're correct it was not a BT3000 but Ryobi's latest reincarnation of the same POJ engineering. TS21 or some whatever. Has most all the same weaknesses, I mean features.
> 
> They are junk in my opinion. Doesn't mean they are junk though, just means I think they are.
> 
> If you like them that's great.:thumbsup:


BTS21 and BT3100 are far and away completely different animals. Not a fair comparison. I own both. The BTS21 is the saw I drag to friend's paces doing remodeling jobs, the BT3100 gets used on things that need far more accuracy... I can definately see where you would have an issue with the BTS21. Yes there ARE weaknesses in both saws, just like there ARE weaknesses in all saws. Just pick your poison as it were... I am happy with the BT3100, but I can see where some folks might not be. It's not for everyone, but if it is for you, it's a good tool... I believe the original BT3000 was introduced in 1988, and there are tons of them still around producing some excellent work...

I am guessing that what bothers you is the aluminum top which translates into light weight, which has not been a problem at all for me, and the sliding miter table, which again, is not a problem after you get used to it. The BTS21 is fine for what it is, the BT3100 is a great saw for a lot of folks, and if Ryobi had any brains left in their corp offices, would have stayed in production... Of course if they had any brains they would have more than one distribution channel as well...

If budget and space were no concern, I would much rather have a fully dressed SawStop cabinet saw...But I haven't won the lotto yet...


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

RichL said:


> I was seriously looking at the Ridgid TS 3660 until.... I ran across a deal on an older (20 yrs?) heavy and stable cast iron Craftsman table saw and a 14" band saw. I paid $270 for both. I took my time and cleaned it up and set it right. It works beautiful. Because it is the older Craftsman it is both good quality and cheep... :laughing: as least IMHO......


Rich - You may already know this, but your old Craftsman is an Emerson made saw that has about the same guts inside as the current Ridgid saw, which is owned by Emerson and is now manufactured by TTI, Ryobi's parent company. Paint it orange, add a Herculift, a new fence, and a set PALS, and you'll have a 3660! :laughing:

Merry Christmas!


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

RichL said:


> I was seriously looking at the Ridgid TS 3660 until.... I ran across a deal on an older (20 yrs?) heavy and stable cast iron Craftsman table saw and a 14" band saw. I paid $270 for both. I took my time and cleaned it up and set it right. It works beautiful. Because it is the older Craftsman it is both good quality and cheep... :laughing: as least IMHO...It is too heavy to move around easily by myself so I will buy a shop fox dolly at some point.
> 
> I was able to save enough money to buy a used Grizley drill press ($125),used Grizley 12.5 planer ($140), new Grizley oscillating spindle sander ($150), new bench top router table ($100), a used older Craftsman Combo 6" x 48" belt 9" disk sander ($80) and a used Delta 20" scroll saw ($40). I have learned how to rehab and tune up some of the older tools I bought. I even surprised myself. Total investment $905.
> 
> ...


Rich, you sound like me, buy used, you get more bang for the buck, unfortunately I did not score as many good deals as you... However..

Used Northern Tool DP $75.00
Used Grizzly DP table $20.00
Used Bench Vise $5.00 (Can of Krylon, it was being thrown out).
Ryobi BT3100 table saw, extended rails, Shark guard etc.... $200.00
Ryobi 13" planer, gift from LOML.

Pretty much everything else was on sale, with gift cards, coupons or whatever to get that price down...


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## Davet (Nov 16, 2007)

dbhost said:


> What about the new Ridgid R4511? (I think that is the model number) with the granite top?
> 
> It appears to be a nice hybrid saw, basically a 1.5HP version of a cabinet saw. The riving knife is a nice feature for sure! (One of the reasons I am a fan of the BT, no other saws in the price range with a riving knife).


Ridgid R4511
Only a 30" rip capacity.
Lousy fence compared to the TS3660.
Currently only avail online with a $300 to $400 additional
shipping charge!

Nah !!! :no: 

..


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## Davet (Nov 16, 2007)

TexasTimbers said:


> You're correct it was not a BT3000 but Ryobi's latest reincarnation of the same POJ engineering. TS21 or some whatever. Has most all the same weaknesses, I mean features.
> 
> They are junk in my opinion. Doesn't mean they are junk though, just means I think they are.
> 
> If you like them that's great.:thumbsup:










Well said !


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

Davet said:


> Ridgid R4511
> Only a 30" rip capacity.
> Lousy fence compared to the TS3660.
> Currently only avail online with a $300 to $400 additional
> ...


It's a steel t-square fence that's much like a Delta T2 or Jet Proshop, which are scaled down versions of the Biese style fence. The T2 is one of the hottest selling aftermarket fence going. The new Ridgid fence lacks faces on the fence tube but is otherwise functionally equivalent to the T2...not sure why they omitted those, but it's hardly "lousy" IMO....no plastic handles, no aluminum rails, no dual locking issues. Take a better look....it just looks a little _skinny_ without the faces. It can also slide right for up to another 10"-20" rip capacity. 

A wwer that goes by "Ashman" ordered one shipped to his local HD without shipping charges, plus they honored his 10% coupon. They're expected in stores shortly after Christmas....that's a lot of saw for $600. It addresses just about every complaint common to the 60 year old design of contractor saws.


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## Davet (Nov 16, 2007)

Ashman is the only one so far that I heard getting the saw and 
with free shipping to boot !

I did see Ashman's posts over on the Ridgid forum. I also read the posts 
after that post from other posters stating the stores were not even 
aware of the saw.

If the saw ends up in the stores soon after Christmas
than that will resolve that issue. They will not sell many saws online 
with $300 - $400 shipping charges that's for sure.

You may be right about the fence, I may have jumped the gun
there, I have heard a lot of concern from many posters that the
fence will be a much lesser fence than their beloved fences
currently on the Ridgid table saws. 

We will see how that plays out once the reviews start to come in.
but they gotta sell some saws first!

Merry Christmas
Dave


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## knotscott (Nov 8, 2007)

They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they keep the ridiculous shipping costs in place....that'd price it with saws like the 3hp Grizzly cabinet saw. 

Merry Christmas Dave and everyone!


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## dbhost (Jan 28, 2008)

Merry Christmas all!


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## RichL (Dec 4, 2008)

knotscott said:


> Rich - You may already know this, but your old Craftsman is an Emerson made saw that has about the same guts inside as the current Ridgid saw, which is owned by Emerson and is now manufactured by TTI, Ryobi's parent company. Paint it orange, add a Herculift, a new fence, and a set PALS, and you'll have a 3660! :laughing:
> 
> Merry Christmas!


No, I did *NOT* know that. Very interesting. This old dog learns something new every day. :yes: Thanks for your info, much appreciated.

Merry Christmas right back at you and a fantabulous :smile: New Year


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## RichL (Dec 4, 2008)

dbhost said:


> Rich, you sound like me, buy used, you get more bang for the buck, unfortunately I did not score as many good deals as you... However..
> 
> Used Northern Tool DP $75.00
> Used Grizzly DP table $20.00
> ...


Looks to me that you're doing ok as well... :yes: 

Craigslist is a wonderful thing... :yes: :laughing:


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