# What's the most powerful small shop vacuum for use with cylone/dust-deputy? (poor man's festool?)



## somervillain (Oct 1, 2021)

I have CT-Mini + CT Cyclone envy








..but I don't have $1000 to spend on it. I love how it's reasonably compact and everything stacks perfectly and wanted to DIY something similar.

What's the most powerful small shop vac one can buy, say under $400? I'd like to hook it up to a dust deputy for miter saw and handheld tool dust collection (sanders/biscuit jointer/etc) as well as general cleanup.

Also, what brands are worth researching? It kind of looks like Rigid is the brand to beat.

Since it's going to be hooked up to a cyclone, I only care about suction, not capacity or any other feature, really. I tried using a 1hp dust collector, but the suction was awful (mentioned in Advice for diagnosing underperforming dust collectors?), so I guess the smart choice is to find a good shop vac.


I LOVE the form factor of RIDGID 5 Gal. 5.0-Peak HP Portable Wall-Mountable Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum with Filter, Hose and Accessories-WD5500 - The Home Depot but it seems to have a lot less power than their 6.5hp models and presumably is a lot louder. 
RIDGID 4.5 Gallon 5.0-Peak HP ProPack Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum with Fine Dust Filter, Expandable Hose and Accessories-WD4522 - The Home Depot also is a nice form factor, but the specs look pretty weak
RIDGID 4 Gallon 5.0-Peak HP Portable Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum with Fine Dust Filter, Hose and Accessories-WD4070 - The Home Depot Also is a nice form factor and seems to have slightly better specs
RIDGID 16 Gal. 6.5-Peak HP NXT Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum with Detachable Blower, Filter, Hose and Accessories-HD1600 - The Home Depot seems like the smart person's choice. I don't like the size, but the power is a lot higher and I imagine it's quieter and will last longer.
It seems like if I was smart, I'd give up on form factor and buy a normal looking 6.5hp shop vac and accept it taking up extra space and being ugly. 

However, I don't even fully know. Rigid seems to make good shop vacs, but measures in CFM, while DeWalt measures in static pressure. It's hard to compare the two or even other vendors. I'm wondering if some reviewer has done the legwork already.

I also wonder if there are brands I should consider beyond rigid and DeWalt. I get the impression Rigid does shop vacs a bit better than DeWalt. I am nervous about Craftsman these days, but the specs seem pretty good. I have a Shop Vac brand today and it's OK, but a bit cheap in quality, with minor nuisances like the top falling off and they're also not particularly easy to find. Are there other brands that make really powerful, small, and (hopefully) quiet vacuums that would work well with a cyclone?

Any advice or experience to share would be really helpful.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

This is not scientific, but my ridgid is very powerful, reliable, and loud af.


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## epicfail48 (Mar 27, 2014)

I havent really done an exhaustive comparison, but im pretty happy with my Vacmaster Beast. Its got power in spades, i dunno that ive ever actually managed to clog the hose. Seems like if something will physically fit in the hose, itll end up in the bin. Shockingly quiet too. Also, ive beat the crap out of mine using it for drywall and masonry dust collection, pulling a 6 foot water column, cleaning out a sandblaster, regular shop use, and its still going strong. Pretty inexpensive too, though the price has gone up a bit since i paid about $80 for mine

Ironically, ive never had good results with shop-vac brand shopvacs, something that im guessing was pretty common given that Shop-Vac closed up shop last year. All the ones weve had at work have died in short order, and been incredibly loud and inefficient their short lives


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

epicfail48 said:


> I havent really done an exhaustive comparison, but im pretty happy with my Vacmaster Beast. Its got power in spades, i dunno that ive ever actually managed to clog the hose. Seems like if something will physically fit in the hose, itll end up in the bin. Shockingly quiet too. Also, ive beat the crap out of mine using it for drywall and masonry dust collection, pulling a 6 foot water column, cleaning out a sandblaster, regular shop use, and its still going strong. Pretty inexpensive too, though the price has gone up a bit since i paid about $80 for mine
> 
> Ironically, ive never had good results with shop-vac brand shopvacs, something that im guessing was pretty common given that Shop-Vac closed up shop last year. All the ones weve had at work have died in short order, and been incredibly loud and inefficient their short lives


With me (ironically) is the hand plane shavings that clog my shop vac. They have a lot of surface area, they're long, and they tend to clump together...


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## Tool Agnostic (Aug 13, 2017)

Here is another consideration: 

I built a cart for my shop vac and a cheap dust separator that I bought at Woodcraft. The shop vac is a 40 year old Craftsman 16 gallon, and the dust separator is a Woodcraft "Cyclone" model. I move it from tool to tool as a dust collector, and use the cart for many other dust collection and cleanup projects in the shop. 

The Woodcraft Cyclone has been discontinued and I do _not_ recommend it. The cyclone doesn't work. Most of the dust and chips end up in the shop vac anyway. The fix is a better dust separator. 

My problem is that the bucket that came with the Cyclone dust separator is smaller than a standard size five gallon bucket. Most small dust separators come with or are designed to fit those five gallon buckets. A replacement separator would not fit my shop-built cart because the five gallon buckets don't fit. 

Now I face these two problems: 
Do I adapt a better separator (say, from Oneida) to the Cyclones bucket so that it fits the cart? The Cyclone lid is not easily modified or replaced, or do I build a new cart to accept a standard five gallon bucket? 

My other problem is that the current cart fits perfectly under the right wing of my table saw in storage. Anything I do to improve dust separation will break that.

My Advice to @somervillain: 
If you do something similar, make sure your dust separator fits a standard 5 gallon bucket (e.g., Home Depot type).


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I have 4 or 5 of these and they are great:

RIDGID 16 Gal. 6.5-Peak HP NXT Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum with Detachable Blower, Filter, Hose and Accessories-HD1600 - The Home Depot seems like the smart person's choice. I don't like the size, but the power is a lot higher and I imagine it's quieter and will last longer.
They would go on sale at Home Depot for about $50.00 so I get 2 at a time. I don't use a separator or cyclone, but they are powerful and reasonably quiet. I like the detachable power head and use it to blow the leaves out of the gutters.


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## somervillain (Oct 1, 2021)

Tool Agnostic said:


> Now I face these two problems:
> Do I adapt a better separator (say, from Oneida) to the Cyclones bucket so that it fits the cart? The Cyclone lid is not easily modified or replaced, or do I build a new cart to accept a standard five gallon bucket?
> 
> My other problem is that the current cart fits perfectly under the right wing of my table saw in storage. Anything I do to improve dust separation will break that.


What about Dustopper High Efficiency Cyclonic Dust Separator, 12 in. Dia with 2.5 in. hose, 36 in. long, with 2 Sweep Elbows-HD12A - The Home Depot ? It seems to have a lower profile. I currently am using rockler's dust right bucket. It seems fine. I see fine dust in my filter, but a LOT more in the cyclone. Mark Spagnuolo found the Oneida beat the Rockler one 



 so I am happy to switch them and do it right...make something more space efficient. Like most, I have bigger dreams than free space.


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## ToolsOnaWall (Apr 8, 2020)

I have the Dust Deputy and a very old ShopVac (I built a cart too), that combo works very well for me.


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

ToolsOnaWall said:


> I have the Dust Deputy and a very old ShopVac (I built a cart too), that combo works very well for me.


This is what I have, too on a cart similar to what TA shows. I’ve had good luck with Rigid, Ive got another one dedicated to my combo sander and 12” bandsaw (no cyclone).

Project Farm on YouTube recently did a review of shop vacs. Surprisingly the Bauer from Harbor Freight was one of the best.

If you’re going to do point of use collection & dedicate a vac to a tool, you can pick up used shop vacs pretty cheap at yard sales.

Another consideration is the filter. IMO the stock filters are garbage, in a closed shop you should use a better aftermarket filter, even with an separator.

My issue with shop vacs are the bulkiness of some units (especially Rigid) but mostly the NOISE. The stainless steel Shop Vac on my cart is ridiculously noisy. The Rigid is much quieter.

A middle of the road consideration is a Fein. But for noise level and efficiency a Fe$tool beats them all hands down, plus it is a true HEPA vac.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

I looked pretty closely at the bosch dust extractor as well. It seems like a really good unit at 2/3 the cost of the festool.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Supercell High-Pressure HEPA Cyclone Dust Collector 230V | Oneida Air Systems


Universal design collects from any 1




www.oneida-air.com





There's a new Oneida Super vac that uses "3 - 1300 watt modular" suction motors, BUT sells for $2400.00!
The specifications page, a must read, says it only produces 435 CFM, and that's a surprise!







A clever guy could get three or more of these central home vacuum motor blowers: New Genuine TriStar, Compact Vacuum Cleaner Motor 651281558539 | eBay mount them on a single platform with appropriate filters, over the intake barrel and cyclone, and see how they perform. That would cost far less than the Oneida and "may work" sufficiently well?
Maybe not 10X more powerful than a typical DC, but who knows?


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

Without going into details, one of my main clients is Nilfisk. If you're really after a high power vacuum with good sound attenuation, maybe you could consider building your own. All you need to start is a good motor. The majority of the sound emanates from the exhaust port and the cooling fan. The style motor shown below has a ducted exhaust and isolated cooling fan, and you can find them on eBay for $80.

Ebay 1200 watt 120V vac


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> A clever guy could get three or more of these central home vacuum motor blowers: New Genuine TriStar, Compact Vacuum Cleaner Motor 651281558539 | eBay mount them on a single platform with appropriate filters, over the intake barrel and cyclone, and see how they perform.


Sorry, I didn't see your posting until after I posted. 

While that vacuum motor is common and less expensive, it it an older stye that is less capable for sound attenuation. The ported model I sowed above is now the standard for sound attenuated commercial vacuum systems.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

Here's a view of an actual motor removed from its housing. The inlet is the hole in the underside (top side in picture) of the impeller, and just needs a foam ring to seal it to your chamber. The exhaust is the side port and needs a foam tube with a few twists and turns to deaden the noise. The cooling fan is at the top of the motor (bottom in picture) and will draw air out of the cavity where the motor is mounted. So it also just needs a foam ring to seal, and maybe some foam ducting.

Oh, P.S. that foam plate to the left is actually the top plate of the motor chamber (removed) and the cooling fan ports out through the small hole into a diverter on the other side.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

So Rick, do you think my "analysis" of motor arrangement on the new Oneida Super Vac is correct using 3 of those motors?


woodnthings said:


> Supercell High-Pressure HEPA Cyclone Dust Collector 230V | Oneida Air Systems
> 
> 
> Universal design collects from any 1
> ...





Rick Christopherson said:


> Without going into details, one of my main clients is Nilfisk. If you're really after a high power vacuum with good sound attenuation, maybe you could consider building your own. All you need to start is a good motor. The majority of the sound emanates from the exhaust port and the cooling fan. The style motor shown below has a ducted exhaust and isolated cooling fan, and you can find them on eBay for $80.
> 
> Ebay 1200 watt 120V vac


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## DrRobert (Apr 27, 2015)

Rick Christopherson said:


> Without going into details, one of my main clients is Nilfisk. If you're really after a high power vacuum with good sound attenuation, maybe you could consider building your own. All you need to start is a good motor. The majority of the sound emanates from the exhaust port and the cooling fan. The style motor shown below has a ducted exhaust and isolated cooling fan, and you can find them on eBay for $80.
> 
> Ebay 1200 watt 120V vac


Frank Howard’s has a YT video on this. Worth a look he’s pretty clever.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> So Rick, do you think my "analysis" of motor arrangement on the new Oneida Super Vac is correct using 3 of those motors?


I'm not sure what "analysis" you're referring to, but if you were suggesting 3 impellers in parallel, you would be correct. If you look closely, you can see the outline where a second motor mounts in my previous picture. Running dual vac is a common way to increase air flow while maintaining pressure differential. 

There is one point of caution, however. When you run these motors with an unrestricted inlet, they will be operating at maximum load continuously. This is counter intuitive to many people, because when they block the input to their vacuum cleaner they hear the motor get louder. But that's due to the motor UNloading (and speeding up) not Loading.

These motors are intended to be used with high static pressures with restricted (inlet) airflow. So using them as a high-flow dust collector may overheat the motors.


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> So Rick, do you think my "analysis" of motor arrangement on the new Oneida Super Vac is correct using 3 of those motors?


Allow me to expand a little more on the topic. First off, nothing is ever free. As we are already familiar, electrical power is current times voltage. Well, vacuum power is similar, except amperage = CFM and voltage = static pressure.

With motor power remaining constant, if you increase static pressure, you must decrease air flow...and vice versa. So while Oneida is increasing their static pressure for the system, the flow rate is lower than a comparably sized conventional dust collector with a lower static pressure.

Oneida's system is quite powerful compared to commercial vacuum motors. The one area where I have performance specifications is at a 1" orifice/restriction. Granted, my numbers are "diagnostic" values, and are therefore minimum performance rating to diagnose a system failure.

Oneida's system is rated at 80"H2O at 1" orifice. This is impressive, at least compared to a typical non-dust collector vacuum motor. A good commercial vacuum motor will be closer to 20 to 25" H2O at 1" (my minimum spec is 15" H2O at 1"). Adding a second motor doesn't quite double the pressure, but maybe about 75%.

By the time you get to your typical 4" ducting, your flow rate has dropped to 430ish CFM. I believe this is lower than a conventional DC.








If you're interested, determining the value is pretty easy. You take a piece of PVC tubing, drill a 1" orifice into the side, and put a vacuum gauge on the end. (blocking all airflow except for the 1" hole)


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

I knew you would have specific answers, and yes, my theory was that they used 3 of the central vac motors under that giant black housing. My observation of the specs show only a 435 CFM rating which is about 1/3 of a conventional 1.5 or 2 HP DC.
The real question is whether this new super sucker is a better choice for a home shop than the conventional DC?
And with 3 motors running at the same time, what is the noise level?
Typically, one shop vac motor (not a central vac) is plenty noisy, so 3 may be too much to bear, I donno?


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> I knew you would have specific answers, and yes, my theory was that they used 3 of the central vac motors under that giant black housing.


No, I do not believe they use 3 motors in that housing. For one thing, the layout doesn't seem to support the size and shape. But most importantly, there would be no benefit to using 3 motors, versus a single larger motor. All they needed to do is change the design of the impeller blades to alter the ratio between pressure and flow from the impeller.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Rick Christopherson said:


> No, I do not believe they use 3 motors in that housing. For one thing, the layout doesn't seem to support the size and shape. But most importantly, there would be no benefit to using 3 motors, versus a single larger motor. All they needed to do is change the design of the impeller blades to alter the ratio between pressure and flow from the impeller.











Supercell Mobile High-Pressure 14 Gallon HEPA Cyclone Dust Collector | Oneida Air Systems


The world's first universal dust collector generates 10x higher suction than standard collectors, allowing it to effectively capture dust and debris from any 1




www.oneida-air.com




Hidden in the product description under "Unbeatable Suction Power" is a statement that they say:
_Powered by three high-pressure blowers working in sync, the Supercell's high suction creates an intense vacuum system that moves the dust-laden air at a relentless pace, overcoming the resistance through up to 100 feet of 4" hose and ductwork!_

AND_:_

_Combined 5HP fan blower motor(s) operates at 230V with magnetic starter and overload protector. _The (s) is my addition because of the word combined


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> Hidden in the product description.......


Wow! It actually says it uses 3x 1300 watt motors. That causes me to lose a whole lot of respect for their design team. That's the kind of solution some guy comes up with in his garage (good), not a major company (bad).


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

woodnthings said:


> Supercell High-Pressure HEPA Cyclone Dust Collector 230V | Oneida Air Systems
> 
> 
> Universal design collects from any 1
> ...


So, a clever guy, *in his garage* could "combine" 3 powerful central vac blowers to duplicate the Supercell's performance at about a $2500 savings!


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> So, a clever guy, *in his garage* could "combine" 3 powerful central vac blowers to duplicate the Supercell's performance at about a $2500 savings!


Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with that part.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

In a slightly different "vane", If dust collection is about moving air through a filter, why doesn't anyone use a squirrel cage blower rather and a finned or vaned impeller?
I bought two commercial air filtration units that use some really nice 240 V. Baldor motors which have squirrel cage blowers in turbine type housings that move a lot of air. I ditched the cabinets and filter housings and have only the blower motors now.
I also have a theory that if the "dust is in suspension in the air", it will stand a greater chance of being sucked up than if it has time to settle out. SO therefore, if a shop vac on "blow" is put inside the saw cabinet to "assist" the DC by keeping the the dust and air mixed up and or "pressurized" it will stand a better chance of being sucked down the DC 4" port.
Any other theories?


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## Rick Christopherson (Jun 27, 2016)

woodnthings said:


> In a slightly different "vane", ......


I was just about to comment when you beat me to it. First off, I do not have any knowledge regarding impeller design, but with a couple hours of reading (or less) I would have enough rudimentary knowledge to design a better impeller that would have solved Oneida's problem without using 3 off-the-shelf vac motors. That's why I have little respect for their design team.

As for your comment about the HVAC blower, those are designed for maximum flow with very little back pressure. This is why they don't work well as DCs.

In just the few minutes after my previous post, I was already coming across articles on the differences of impeller designs for flow and pressure. It wouldn't have taken much longer to have a simple answer....if I chose to pursue it any further.


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## woodnthings (Jan 24, 2009)

Flow VS pressure is what I figured would be the reason. Those 240 V. blowers flow a lot of air, but it feels like at not much pressure. I also have a giant squirrel cage blower about 20" diameter and 24" wide that makes a huge volume of air flow. It only had a 1/6 HP oil furnace ignition motor attached last time I used it, but man did it push some air!
Mathias Wandell, a famous You Tuber, has made his own impellers from wood like he make everything else he has with interesting results:


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

In fluid dynamics, because pushing is more efficient than sucking, at least with a column of water, I have to wonder if a DIY’er could hot rod their DC to outperform that inefficient Oneida design by using a single motor at the traditional end-of-the-run location plus another blower near the worker end of the collection hose. In other words, one motor would generate only negative hose pressure (suction) while the other would add a component of positive pressure to the longer hose/pipe run — it would PUSH the debris column along the hose. 

One detail to consider is that small shop vac’s have to rely upon high static pressure in order to overcome the internal friction of the very rough and restrictive hoses. On the other hand, the DC’s must move massive volumes of air through their smooth pipes in order to prevent the debris from clogging.

For debris separation whilst using a shop vac, I use the HD Dust-Topper, and it works great. For 30 years I used a Fein Turbo-II and recently replaced it with a Festool CT-26. The newer designed Festool is better, duh, but the Fein was the King for many years and is being passed along to my son. Before buying the Festool, I considered the Makita and the Bosch, but got the Fester because the Makita wasn’t available and the Bosch didn’t do well enough in the reviews and Fine Homebuilding’s reviews. Also, Nilfisk makes great vac’s and they private label a number of other decent vac’s sold on Amazon; they are manufactured in Hungary I believe.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

A large benefit of the cyclone is that the dust does not pass through your impeller


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

BigCountry79 said:


> A large benefit of the cyclone is that the dust does not pass through your impeller


True, and that’s where a drop box is our friend.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

Scurvy said:


> True, and that’s where a drop box is our friend.


It would have to route through that first pusher impeller. Otherwise, you would just blow the dust out of the collection ports.


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

BigCountry79 said:


> It would have to route through that first pusher impeller. Otherwise, you would just blow the dust out of the collection ports.


I don’t think so. The pusher is still online, so anything upstream of it, towards the intake, would get sucked a short distance and through the drop box and then on to the end sucker and cyclone/filtration chamber.


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## BigCountry79 (Jun 2, 2021)

I really don't think that world work. If you try it let us know


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

😂 Yep, it’s one of those time and need things, and I’m good on both accounts.


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## GeezerviserBom (Feb 27, 2021)

Very interesting and useful topic to discuss since vacuum cleaners are very needed in our job/hobby. I've recently scrolled google with multiple articles about vacuums and found a comparison of the ash shop vac. After reading it I opened the link of the DeWalt 20 Volt Cordless Vacuum Cleaner that was attached there and finally got to the cleaner on amazon https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCV51...4fabbadb2cc73f863a38b2ac5&language=en_US&th=1. I was shocked after I read the reviews and saw the price cause it is really low. So I ordered it and liked it.


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## Scurvy (Apr 12, 2013)

GeezerviserBom said:


> I need one as well
> and after looking for it on the internet I realized I won't find powerful vac for less than $800(
> but if you found one let me know


I just went through this agony, and you’re right, after checking all the tick-boxes, the answer is expensive. 

I ended up with the Fester CT36-AC because I do a lot of remodeling work and have to deal with Sheetrock, concrete, and stone dust. My 2nd choice (actually 1st choice but it was unavailable for several months due to COVID) was the Makita. The 3rd choice was the Bosch.

Along the way I discovered the Hungarian vac’s that are often private labeled for Bosch and Fein I think, and are quite good. Those can be found on Amazon and will save you money, but they don’t have quite a good a feature list as The name brands.

good luck.


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